ARCHIVED -  Transcript - Hull, QC - 2001/06/20

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In order to meet some of the requirements under this Act, the Commission's transcripts will therefore be bilingual as to their covers, the listing of CRTC members and staff attending the hearings, and the table of contents.

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Conference Centre Centre des conférences

Outaouais Room Salle Outaouais

Portage IV Portage IV

140 Promenade du Portage 140, Promenade du


Hull, Quebec Hull (Québec)

June 20, 2001 Le 20 juin 2001


Volume 2








In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of Contents.

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in either of the official languages, depending on the language spoken by the participant at the public hearing.





Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience publique ainsi que la table des matières.

Toutefois, la publication sousmentionnée est un compte rendu textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le participant à l'audience publique.


Canadian Radio-television and

Telecommunications Commission


Conseil de la radiodiffusion et

des télécommunications canadiennes


Transcript / Transcription


Multiple broadcasting and ownership applications /

Demandes de radiodiffusion et de propriétés multiples




Martha Wilson Chairperson / Présidente

Andrée Wylie Commissioner / Conseillère

Andrew Cardozo Commissioner / Conseiller

Barbara Cram Commissioner / Conseillère

Ron Williams Commissioner / Conseiller


Peter McCallum Legal Counsels /

Leanne Bennett Conseillers juridiques

Michael Burnside Hearing Manager and Secretary

/ Gérant de l'audience et


Lynne Poirier Hearing Secretary /

Secrétaire de l'audience



Conference Centre Centre des conférences

Outaouais Room Salle Outaouais

Portage IV Portage IV

140 Promenade du Portage 140, Promenade du Portage

Hull, Quebec Hull (Québec)

June 20, 2001 Le 20 juin 2001

Volume 2












Pelmorex Communications Inc. "The Weather Network/MétéoMédia 1 / 6



Mr. Chris Stark 138 / 540

Canadian Cable Television Association / 160 / 622

Association télévision canadienne par câble


Canadian Red Cross / Croix rouge canadienne 176 / 692

Multiple Sclerosis Society of Canada / 188 / 740

Société canadienne de la sclérose en plaques


REPLY / RÉPLIQUE 231 / 882




CPAM Radio Union.Com Inc. 241 / 911

--- Upon commencing on Tuesday, June 19 2001 at 9:00 a.m. / L'audience débute le mardi 19 juin 2001 à 9h00.

  1. THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to the hearing. It's nice to see Mr. Morrissette.
  2. Madame la secrétaire.
  3. MS L. POIRIER: Thank you, Madam Chair.
  4. We will now hear an application presented by Pelmorex Communications Inc. to renew its licence for its national specialty television service known as the Weather Network/MétéoMédia, expiring the 30th of November 2001.
  5. Monsieur Morrissette?


  6. MR. P. MORRISSETTE: Thank you, Madam Secretary.
  7. My name is Pierre Morrissette, and I am the President and CEO of Pelmorex Communications Inc. Joining me on our panel today are: to my right, Paul Temple, Senior Vice President Corporate Development; and, to my left, Luc Perreault, Vice President Affiliates and Government Relations, as well as Basia Ujejska, Director of Programming.
  8. At the table behind me, starting at my left are: Valerie Morrissette, Vice President Human Resources, Jean-Pierre Boulanger, Senior Vice President Technology, Alysia Charlton, Vice President Finance and Taylor Emerson, Manager, Interactive TV.
  9. Unfortunately, one of our proposed panel members cannot be with us today, a key player in our organization, Rick Ridgway, who is our Executive Vice President and Chief Operating Officer, who got ill this week. So anyway, he sends his regrets, and we regret he is not here.
  10. Before I begin, I would just like to signal a special day for a member of the panel today. Madam Vice Chair, happy birthday and many happy returns.
  11. COMMISSIONER WYLIE: Thank you. Everybody is keeping track of my age. I don't know if that's good news or not, but thank you. That's very gracious.
  12. MR. P. MORRISSETTE: Madame Chair, Commissioners, in the next few minutes we would like to tell you a little bit about how Pelmorex has made the Weather Network and MétéoMédia into the successes that they are today. We will then outline our plans for making them even better over the upcoming licence term, focusing on our initiatives related to interactivity and the provision of separate eastern and western feeds. Next we will address the rationale for the two-cent increase to our wholesale fee. And finally, we will comment on the issue of making our services more accessible to blind and vision-impaired subscribers.
  13. En juin 1993, il y a déjà huit ans, le Conseil accordait à Pelmorex le privilège et la responsabilité d'exploiter la licence de radiodiffusion de MétéoMédia et The Weather Network. A cette époque, ces réseaux employaient 125 personnes et étaient distribués par environ 300 entreprises de câblodistribution et rejoignaient près de six millions de foyers canadiens. En 1993, MétéoMédia et The Weather Network étaient des merveilles d'ingénierie basés sur des concepts innovateurs, mais l'approche créative de la programmation n'en était qu'à ses premiers pas.
  14. What a difference eight years has made! Today, The Weather Network/MétéoMédia is Canada's undisputed leader in the provision of weather-related information and one of the leading specialty television networks in Canada.
  15. It is the most widely distributed specialty service in Canada, available in over nine million homes. Our subscriber base has increased 60 per cent over 1993 levels.
  16. We have more than quadrupled the number of cable affiliates that carry the service, to over 1,200 systems. Most of these are very small Class 2 and Class 3 systems to which Pelmorex has provided financial assistance to receive our service. Since 1993 we have spent in excess of $3 million dollars on providing equipment and other assistance to these small systems, making it economically possible for them to receive and distribute our service.
  17. The Weather Network/MétéoMédia is also carried by all licensed MDS undertakings and by both national DTH services.
  18. Our audience share has more than tripled since 1993 from a 0.3 rating at a time when there were relatively few television services competing for viewers, to a 1.0 share in a much more competitive environment.
  19. We now have some 250 employees working at our two broadcast centres in Montreal and Toronto and at our regional bureaus in Moncton and Vancouver. We are one of the most people-intensive specialty services in Canada.
  20. We program two national networks, one in English and one in French, each for 24 hours per day. We also provide separate local programming feeds on weekday mornings for viewers in Toronto and Montreal areas. In total, we produce almost 18,000 hours of original programming each year, over 90 per cent of it live. One hundred per cent (100%) of that content is Canadian.
  21. To complement our live programming, we produce and constantly update detailed local forecasts in text and graphical format, individually tailored for each of the headends we serve. This localisation capability is made possible by the patented PMX technology developed by Pelmorex. Every day, we produce more than 300,000 pages of unique weather-related content, providing detailed local information for 1,260 headends, serving literally thousands of communities.
  22. Our operations are complex and technically sophisticated, more so than almost any other broadcaster, not just in Canada, but in the world. The Pelmorex Forecast Engine, technology that we developed, generates weather forecasts for the entire country down to a 10 square kilometre grid, the equivalent of 180,000 individual locations. Our two broadcast centres coordinate, assemble and integrate all this content to produce two national and two local programming feeds, plus detailed local weather forecasts.
  23. Our services enhance the public safety of Canadians. From the constantly updated reports that we prepare on road conditions, air quality and UV levels; to our in-depth coverage of the consequences of extreme weather conditions; to Environment Canada Weather Warnings - our services advise and warn viewers of potentially dangerous weather and health-related situations. In short, we are convinced that our services help save lives and property.
  24. Needless to say, we are proud of our accomplishments with The Weather Network and MétéoMédia over the past eight years, and we are thrilled that Canadians are watching our service in greater numbers than ever before. They are finding that it provides them relevant and essential information to help them plan their activities.
  25. Le rôle important que joue MétéoMédia et The Weather Network dans la vie des canadiens a été clairement confirmé par le processus réglementaire puisque plus de 130 personnes, sociétés et organisations sont intervenues à l'appui de notre demande de reounvellement.
  26. Nous sommes fiers des progrès que nous avons effectués au cours des dernières années à la barre de MétéoMédia et The Weather Network. Mais nous sommes encore plus stimulés par les défis que représentent les possibilités d'avenir qui s'ouvrent devant nous et à tout le potentiel qu'elles représentent. Nous envisageons avec beaucoup d'enthousiasme revenir devant le Conseil dans sept ans d'ici afin d'exposer les progrès que nous aurons réalisés afin de conserver notre leadership dans la provision d'informations météorologiques et environmentales.
  27. Before we outline our specific plans for the next licence term, we want to emphasise two key principles that will continue to guide our activities.
  28. First, we are proud of our independence within the Canadian broadcasting system. We are not a large player compared to many others, but we believe that we have an important contribution to make in terms of our expertise, our ability to innovate and the diversity that we bring to the system.
  29. Second, we are committed to continuing to improve our services so that they will remain the number one choice of Canadians for their weather information. Our strategy is to make our services stand out by always providing subscribers with the information they want, when they want it.
  30. During the next licence term, we want to move forward with two major programming initiatives - interactivity and separate eastern and western programming feeds. My colleague will briefly address both of these initiatives.
  31. MR. TAYLOR EMERSON: For the past eight years, Pelmorex has been at the forefront in using technology to gather, assemble and deliver customised and constantly changing content to our customers. We are now poised to apply this expertise to the creation of a fully interactive service that exploits the capabilities of digital distribution technology.
  32. We will make weather-related information available to digital subscribers "on demand", at the push of a button on their remote control. Content will be customisable to meet the needs of the individual viewer. Do you want to know what the weather is like in a community will be visiting? What about the road conditions on the way there? How about the pollen count or the air quality? Maybe you are interested in ski reports for any one of hundreds of resorts across Canada? All this and much more will be accessible at any time where we are distributed by BDUs that support interactive features.
  33. These are simple examples of the type of text and graphical information that would be available during the early stages of interactivity. As set-top box functionality increases, viewers will be able to access increasingly enhanced programming content.
  34. Pelmorex is committed to the provision of interactivity for both The Weather Network and MétéoMédia, starting in the first year of the new licence term. It will be an integral part of our service and, as such, we would expect the interactive elements to be provided by all BDUs that distribute The Weather Network and MétéoMédia, where they have the technical capability to do so. At the same time, we will undertake any technical adaptations required to accommodate the particular form of interactive capability deployed by individual BDUs.
  35. To further assist our cable partners, we are prepared to authorise them to duplicate The Weather Network and MétéoMédia as part of their digital offering, with no increase to the wholesale fee. In turn, we would expect these cable BDUs to provide full service, complete with interactive elements where technically feasible, to all digital subscribers at no additional programming charge.
  36. Our interactive programming will provide an enhanced service to digital subscribers. We believe that it will also strengthen the digital offerings of BDUs, to the benefit of both distributors and the new digital services to be launched later this year.
  37. Pelmorex is eager to proceed with this initiative. Interactivity is as critical to our future success in a digital world as localisation as been to our current success in the analogue world. It will enable us to provide our subscribers with an enhanced, personalised viewing experience, one that will meet their needs for relevant, timely, "on-demand" information. In light of the importance of interactivity to our long-term success, we have requested an appropriate amendment to our broadcasting licence to explicitly recognize interactive content as an integral part of our programming mandate.
  38. MS B. UJEJSKA: We would like to turn now to our second initiative - separate eastern and western programming fees for The Weather Network.
  39. Unlike most other specialty services, our "prime time" hours are during the morning, when viewers are turning to our service for information to help them plan the rest of their day. One of the challenges of operating a national service that broadcasts live programming is the provision of timely, relevant programming that meets the needs of viewers spread across six time zones. We believe the single most important enhancements that we can make to our core service is to provide separate programming feeds for eastern and western Canada during those prime time hours.
  40. Our plan is to create a new programming feed for at least four hours each weekday, from 6:00 a.m. to 10:00 a.m. Mountain Time. This new feed, with programming focused on western Canada, would be made available to all cable and MDS affiliates west of the Ontario-Manitoba border, and to both DTH undertakings for delivery to their subscribers.
  41. During those same hours, our regular national feed will orient its coverage toward eastern Canada and would continue to be carried by our cable and MDS affiliates east of the Ontario-Manitoba border, and by the DTH licensees.
  42. By providing separate feeds during our prime time, we will be able to better focus the programming on each feed to the particular interests of viewers in both western and eastern Canada when it matters the most. Thus, viewers of The Weather Network in all parts of the country will benefit from enhanced programming content. They will be able to receive a level of service comparable to that already offered to subscribers of MétéoMédia in Québec, Ontario and New Brunswick.
  43. When implemented, this initiative means that we will produce over 1,000 hours of additional live Canadian content every year.
  44. There is an important ancillary benefit that will result from this initiative. Because we will need new studio facilities and additional satellite capacity to deliver the separate feeds during the morning hours, we will have the potential capability during other parts of the day to produce and distribute targeted coverage of extreme weather conditions when and as warranted. To use examples from recent years, it would have been possible to provide more local programming and information directly to the particular regions affected by the ice storm in eastern Ontario and Quebec, or by the floods in Manitoba, while subscribers in other regions would have continued to receive their regular service.
  45. The provision of east-west feeds responds to requests received from viewers across Canada that we improve our coverage to provide more detailed and focused information on unique regional weather phenomena. It also responds to our quantitative research, which clearly demonstrates the importance to our viewers of having timely access to local and regional weather information. We are convinced that it will significantly enhance the value of The Weather Network to our subscribers.
  46. This new programming initiative represents a significant commitment of resources on the part of Pelmorex. On top of the substantial ongoing costs of producing four hours or more of new programming each day, we will need to build additional studio facilities and lease satellite capacity to deliver the new programming to western Canadian affiliates. All of this represents new spending, with only very modest incremental advertising revenues attributable to the separate feed.
  47. MS A. CHARLETON: We now turn to the other key element of our application, namely, the proposal to restore our wholesale fee to 25 cents per subscriber per month.
  48. Our current 23 cent rate has been in effect since 1993, when we reduced the previously approved rate of 25 cents as one of the tangible benefits of our acquisition of The Weather Network and MétéoMédia. During the past licence term we have been able to implement many improvements to our service with that 23 cent rate as the distribution of our service expanded, albeit at the cost of declining profit margins over the last several years.
  49. In our last renewal application, we had projected that our profit before interest and taxes, as a percentage of revenues, would average 20 per cent over the current licence term. In fact, we were able to achieve that return as an average over the first six years of the licence term. What is of concern, however, is that our year-over-year PBIT margin has declined sharply over the same period, and is projected to be only 18.8 per cent for the 2000-2001 broadcast year.
  50. Without an increase to our wholesale fee our PBIT margin will decline even further during the next licence term. It would average just over 16 per cent if we do not implement the separate eastern and western feeds, and would fall to only 14.5 per cent if we were to proceed with the initiative.
  51. Commissioners will note that a graph illustrating these historical and projected trends is included in a copy of our opening remarks that you have in front of you. With approval of the two-cent increase, we will be able to implement the east-west feed while having an opportunity to achieve an average PBIT margin of 18.9 per cent over the next licence term.
  52. In contrast, the other dual status services have averaged a PBIT margin of over 23 per cent between 1994 and 1999. A number of individual services have considerably exceeded this average - for example, Canal Famille at 32 per cent, TSN at 31.5 per cent and MuchMusic at 27.9 per cent.
  53. During the current licence term, Pelmorex was able to achieve the successes we talked about a few minutes ago by making substantial reinvestments into our broadcasting operations. We did this without the benefit of a rate increase, by growing a subscriber base from six to nine million subscribers. This allowed us to increase subscription revenues while maintaining a 23 cent wholesale fee, and to substantially increase advertising revenues.
  54. Looking ahead to the next licence term, it is clear that the rates of growth in subscriber and advertising revenues that we were able to achieve over the current licence term cannot be sustained.
  55. Projected subscription revenues are based on the expectation that subscriber growth will remain relatively strong in the first two years of the new licence term, but will level off after that as the growth of DTH slows. The lower rate of subscriber growth during the latter years of the licence term corresponds to the anticipated household growth in Canada.
  56. Our projected advertising revenues are strong throughout the new licence term, but the rate of growth will inevitably be lower than what we were able to achieve in the past, as there will be more and more services competing for advertising dollars. Our projections also include realistic assessments of incremental advertising revenues attributable to having separate eastern and western feeds and modest new revenues from interactivity.
  57. Concerning our operating expenses, we have prepared a graph comparing our per subscriber operating expenses with those of other for-profit dual status specialty services.
  58. It is clear that over the first six years of our current licence term, we have been able to keep our technical, sales and promotion, and administration expenses lower than almost all other services. Our operations are lean and efficient. Our projected expenses for the new licence term reflect our continued commitment to maintaining an efficient operation.
  59. In summary, our revenue and expense projections reflect a careful and realistic assessment of the environment in which we will be operating over the next seven years. As explained in more detail in our application, we submit that this assessment clearly demonstrates the need for the proposed two cent increase in our maximum wholesale fee.
  60. MR. P. MORRISSETTE: Pelmorex est très consciente des préoccupations du Conseil quant à l'abordabilité du service de base et nous comprenons qu'une proposition de modification tarifaire de quelque service spécialisé que ce soit doit faire l'objet d'un examen sérieux. Par la même occasion, nous soumettons respectueusement au Conseil que des préoccupations légitimes quant à l'abordabilité ne doivent pas entraver l'octroi d'une augmentation de tarif lorsqu'elle est clairement requise. Dans notre cas, nous demandons un modeste réajustement qui représente moins de un dixième de un pourcent du coût de service de base typique.
  61. Avec votre approbation, Pelmorex sera en mesure de continuer sa stratégie d'investissement dans MétéoMédia et The Weather Network de façon à maintenir et à améliorer la qualité du service que nous offrons aux téléspectateurs tout en assurant un retour juste et équitable aux actionnaires.
  62. Finally, I would like to comment on the important issue of finding ways to provide greater access to our service by blind and vision-impaired subscribers. I anticipate that we will be asked to provide specifics during the question period and following the interventions, but up front I want to confirm Pelmorex's unequivocal commitment to an ongoing dialogue with representatives of the blind and vision-impaired community to better understand their needs and to continue to seek out appropriate solutions.
  63. In our application we have described one particular approach using the secondary audio programming channel to provide weather-related information in audio format. We will implement this solution, as we believe that it hold great potential, not just for us but for other services as well. At the same time, we wish to assure the Commission that the use of the SAP channel will not be the end of the story. The technical challenges of providing an audio feed of our text and graphical information to each subscriber are immense, but research is currently underway on developing cost-effective solutions. Our commitment is to continue to seek out new solutions, and we will implement measures to better serve our blind and vision-impaired customers as they become viable.
  64. Madame Chair, Commissioners, this concludes our opening remarks. Thank you for your attention, and we would now be pleased to respond to your questions.
  65. THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Morrissette.
  66. It occurred to me after the little musical interlude from Mr. Temple's computer that I had neglected to repeat my request that everyone turn off their cell phones, pagers and sound cards on their computers. I guess we are going to have to add that now to our standard warning at the end of the opening remarks, "Please turn your computers off, or at least the sound card".
  67. Commissioner Williams.
  68. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Good morning, Mr. Morrissette and panel members.
  69. MR. P. MORRISSETTE: Morning.
  70. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I am going to cover a few different areas of questioning over the next couple of hours, and I will begin here where you ended your remarks this morning.
  71. I guess focusing on the feasibility of making the existing service accessible to blind subscribers, could you please describe in laymen's terms the way in which your local PMS services operate and why this makes it cost prohibitive to provide a full audio complement to locally delivered information?
  72. MR. P. MORRISSETTE: Well, I will initiate this, then I will ask Paul Temple, Jean-Pierre Boulanger and Luc Perreault to jump in as required.
  73. First of all, we distribute our service for the cable segment of our activities to approximately 1,260 systems in Canada. One of the essential and integral features of our service is local content distributed simultaneously, but differing in each one of these systems across the country. So this represents huge amounts of information that are sent concurrently and constantly repeated and updated during our schedule each day.
  74. There is no question that to provide an audio element that describes each one of these system's individual programming would incur huge levels of costs which are just not viable. I would go as far as to say we would be out of business if we were to implement -- attempt to implement an individual audio feed for each one of these 1,260 systems simultaneously. That's why we have had to seek out alternative solutions.
  75. But to add to explanation of some of the limitations on the PMX system, Paul, would you like to ---
  76. MR. P. TEMPLE: With your indulgence, I will see if I can get this to work properly.
  77. As Mr. Morrissette indicated, we serve headends all across Canada. That's a map. Each of those red diamonds represents a separate headend and, in fact, there's so many that they're basically being obliterated by each other. But I think the diagram is helpful in just conveying the fact that we have physically located equipment in locations all across Canada. I'm going to skip through a little bit. But what that allows us to do is then present information, which while the format or the look may be similar, the content is different on every one of those locations shown on the map.
  78. So when we go to a PMS product -- in this case I think it says ski report -- there are literally -- you know, the background may look similar, but the content on every one of the 1,200 plus locations is different and customised to that location, because obviously if you're in Collingwood, you want to know the ski conditions in your area. If you're in Canmore, you want to know the ski conditions in locations and the area close to where you live. So it's customised. The information is customised to each and every headend and, therefore, the content that is appearing simultaneously is different on each and every cable headend and different for MDS and DTH as well.
  79. So for us to be able then to render an audio element to describe that would mean that we have to simultaneously create 1,200 plus audio clips.
  80. This basically is just showing schematically how the process works. We create the information centrally, so the ski reports or the local weather or road conditions, all those elements are created at our facilities. Information is processed. We are literally creating thousands of pages of information every hour. It's put up on the satellite and distributed to all those little red diamonds across Canada. It is received at the local headend, but the device at the local headend, the PMX technology, is only capturing or retaining the information just meant for that location. So that's why, if you're in Saskatoon, you will see the Saskatoon weather, and if you're in Ottawa, you will see the Ottawa weather, even though all the information is literally going to each and every box.
  81. So to go directly to the question, theoretically there are two possible solutions. As I said, we've got to somehow figure out how to do 1,200 plus audio feeds simultaneously. Now, one might be to try and generate all those audio elements centrally and then distribute it, but if we did that, we would need some 1,200 plus audio data streams or some manner to get it from our central facilities out. So obviously we would be taking an awful lot of satellite band width, but more importantly, we would have to figure out a way how to create those audio elements. You know, in the kind of extreme, you would have hundreds of people trying to tape things quickly because it's constantly changing. The weather forecast you see at 10 minutes after the hour may be completely different 30 minutes later. So as I said, in the extreme, you would have hundreds of people trying to quickly tape audio elements to describe what is being seen on air or try and automate it somehow, but still, you would be looking at a very substantial investment in technology to somehow read data files.
  82. The other option is to try and upgrade or put some device at each headend that we could send data to, and the audio could be created at the local headend. In other words, you would send some kind of information data that would allow a new box at each headend to recreate a voice. Now, some of that technology is available, but it is -- we would literally have to scrap our entire system and redesign a far more powerful unit that could do not only what it's doing now, but have the processing power to take data and, in effect, turn that into speech or an audio clip.
  83. And I guess the kind of conclusion is neither of those options are really practical at all. I hope I have answered your question.
  84. MR. P. MORRISSETTE: Just to jump in, as we indicated in our oral presentation, this adds up to about 300,000 individual pages of information each and every day, a huge volume, as you can imagine. And each one of these pages contains a tremendous amount of information. To condense that into the few words required during the timing of that particular element, because of the volume of information, to provide a complete description would probably require more than the time required for that feature. So it just again demonstrates, I guess, the complexity of the network.
  85. One of the things that we have been able to achieve is to automate as much of our process as possible to make it efficient and viable. And unfortunately, at this time, to provide a voice feed would be an extremely manual approach, which would be cost prohibitive.
  86. MR. P. TEMPLE: I just might add that in addition to the comments about the information changing frequently so that it would be difficult for the audio -- you wouldn't have enough time to really present the text information and audio. There would also be elements of the local content, such as radar, satellite pictures and whatnot that would be pretty well next to impossible to practically describe in an audio context.
  87. Usually these features are up for anywhere from 30 seconds to a minute and a half, and they are conveying a lot of information fairly quickly. So it would be, at best, even if we could figure out the way to do it in 1,200 times simultaneously, you still wouldn't be getting a substantial amount of information out in that minute and a half.
  88. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. It's certainly an interesting approach to use such an extensive visual presentation when dealing with issues of concern to the blind community. I was just trying to imagine being a blind person and trying to understand your reply to the main question, and then having to understand your reply without the use of your -- of the information you have provided in the video format. And I guess what it does is it certainly opened my eyes to the challenge of providing services to the blind.
  89. So I want to spend a bit more time on this, and I am going to preamble a bit my next couple of questions to help you with your answer a bit more.
  90. I guess the objective of this series of questions is I want to obtain detailed information on the implications of requiring Pelmorex to provide a full audio complement to its existing services, and you have framed it nicely.
  91. But I guess I need some information on the technical and practical feasibility, which you have covered to some extent, some detailed information on the costs, technical requirements, human resource requirements and want to explore some alternate ways to make the existing service accessible. Once we have a good understanding of the implications of making the existing service accessible, we will then move on to your alternate proposal to ensure we fully understand it and can determine whether it will serve its purpose.
  92. So in this same area, you have stated in your application that the development and implementation costs of modifying your PMS equipment to enable it to provide an audio complement would be in the order of $6 million, one million dollars in development and $4 to $5 million dollars in implementation.
  93. Can you please explain how you arrive at these figures, and could you please describe the steps you would have to take to do the necessary upgrades to permit Pelmorex to offer a full audio complement to the existing service, sort of help us gain a better understanding of how to achieve the goal with your existing service prior to moving on to your proposal?
  94. MR. P. MORRISSETTE: I will ask our Senior Vice President of Technology, Jean-Pierre Boulanger, to address the first part of your question.
  96. MR. J.P. BOULANGER: Our current PMX we have in the field right now, because there is 1,200 units of it, has been built as being a low-cost device. In other words, it is a very, very simple and low powerful machine, but it needs to meet certain quality standards because it is there, remote, and it has to be stable.
  97. In such a way to accommodate audio, because the current machine, as an example, has no hard disk, practically no memory and very elemental CPU power, we would have to, in other words, completely scrap it and replace that by a machine which at least has a hard disk and operating system and a lot of memory, which means the price tag of the machine itself, just the unit, will be multiplied by at least two or if not three. That's where the bulk of the cost is.
  98. In such a way to sustain such a machine, the PMX has an infrastructure that drives the satellite -- drives them through the satellite. That infrastructure will have to be redone, not completely, but a good chunk of it, but the unit, as the software is concerned too, will have to be redone completely with an operating system, new language and a disk base instead of interrupt and memory base. That adds up to the cost.
  99. The development cost is just obtained by what we invest to develop the first version, which is a simpler version in that case.
  100. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Boulanger.
  101. Given the amount of visual information that is provided in text and graphic form, would it even be possible to provide a complete audio reading in the available time, or would your approach be to use summaries? And how useful could they be? Like you say, the slides are constantly changing, 300,000 slides.
  102. So I guess this is again for Mr. Boulanger. Given the volume of visual information that is provided, would it even be possible to provide a complete audio reading in the available time?
  103. MR. J.P. BOULANGER: If we look at all the volume and all the types of data, by that I mean like satellite radar, and the fact that we have on the screen two positions at the same time - we have information at the bottom and information at the top - it is not possible to make an audio of all that content in the timeframe allocated to follow the video. It's not possible. Some of it, yes, but not all.
  104. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Are there alternative means of providing locally-specific audio complement to the existing service? Have you identified any alternatives?
  105. MR. J.P. BOULANGER: The only way to provide an audio is for us to bring an audio to the headend and then through the SAP. That's the thing we are proposing. And as Paul mentioned, it's either we generate the audio, or a clip version of it, at the broadcast centre, and transmit that, which incurs a lot of satellite band width, or we have the facility at the headend to do the automated rendering, which will probably come down in the future when the technology will be available in this kind of environment, but at this date it's not really practical.
  106. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Have you explored the feasibility of using voice synthesis technologies to provide audio complement to the local info services?
  107. MR. J.P. BOULANGER: Voice synthesis, again, is another name for what we said. If I do a rendering of the audio at the headend, it is voice synthesis, and that requires a lot of CPU power. I do the voice synthesis at the broadcast centre, then I have to transport the audio or a file version of it through the satellite, and then the band width is the issue.
  108. But our intention, even for the SAPs on the road, we will do voice synthesis for the initial thing, and as the technology evolves, we will probably use it more and more.
  109. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: How much of an increase in band width demand would that be?
  110. MR. J.P. BOULANGER: If you do the audio at the broadcast centre and you have to have a different audio for every site, you would be transporting like 1,260 additional audios on the satellite. Each audio ends up being a certain band width.
  111. Paul, I think you have the number in the application.
  112. MR. P. TEMPLE: In our response to one of the Commission's questions -- I think I'm reading from the right one -- we would need -- well, we would be producing more than a quarter of a million audio program elements every 24 hours. We calculated we would need 260 people for per eight-hour shift to do an audio, and that was based on certain salary costs which -- I mean, that's the extreme. If we were to do it using some speech- rendering technology, which I think you were suggesting, then there would be the data cost of, I guess, 1,200, which I'm not quite sure -- hopefully Jean-Pierre is working on that now. But then that is simply moving the cost, part of the cost, to each headend because now you need to put more processing, as Jean-Pierre was mentioning earlier, at each headend. So you would save -- you wouldn't have to hire 200 and whatever people, but you would have to be investing an awful lot of money. I think Jean-Pierre suggested it would probably cost two or three times the capital cost of the equipment we have now.
  113. MR. J.P. BOULANGER: To answer on the band width, each audio is 128 kilobits. You would have to multiply that by the quantity, which would boil down to roughly $15 million dollars per year of satellite space just for the audio. That's not containing or rendering the audio per se; it's just transporting it.
  114. MR. L. PERREAULT: To give you a scope, Mr. Williams, we currently need about four and a half to five megabits to broadcast one of our services, either MétéoMédia or The Weather Network. We would be talking about 150 megabytes to transport all of the audio portions for the 1,260 sites. So it's a ---
  115. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Is that capacity available to you from the satellite provider?
  116. MR. L. PERREAULT: I don't believe so. One hundred and fifty (150) megabytes is a lot of satellite space segment.
  117. MR. P. MORRISSETTE: Even if it was, I think we would have a capacity constraint on the part of our bankers.
  118. MR. P. TEMPLE: That's bank width as opposed to band width.
  119. With the Chair's indulgence, I may turn the sound card up because we do have an audio element as well, if I can get this ---
  120. THE CHAIRPERSON: I am quite willing to indulge you, Mr. Temple.
  122. MR. P. TEMPLE: That's software which is rendering information into audio. That kind of software is improving all the time, but as you can see, it's not -- it takes a little while. It's somewhat mechanical, and it would not be really in sync with what you're seeing.
  123. So if we were to try and do something like that, what you would have is basically everyone would be hearing that, but seeing something else. So we would be -- it would make it a little confusing, I guess, is one of the concerns we would have in trying to implement that, notwithstanding the fact that it's very costly, but there's kind of a practical issue as well, because that would take quite some time to be able to convey even the significant information that we are showing. So it would either run past the time when we are showing the test and graphical information, or we would have to truncate it so much that there wouldn't be much value at all, which kind of led us to try to provide some kind of alternative using the SAP channel.
  124. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Temple.
  125. You have stated that some of the program segments generate by your PMX technology are not local in nature. From your revised program grid, these appear to be travellers and international forecasts.
  126. Could you please explain why these are generated through the PMX, and could these be generated in a different way so that they could be made accessible to visually-impaired audiences?
  127. MR. P. MORRISSETTE: I would ask Basia to address that.
  128. MS B. UJEJSKA: Our travellers forecast and our international forecast -- well, it is concentrated on travellers first -- is mainly specific to North America. And we have come across the same sort of problems. We will name 30 or 40 named places in the space of a minute where we will provide, visually, icons specific to major cities across North America. And again, the amount of information that an icon provides, whether it's partly cloudy, partly sunny, rainy, thunder showers, snow, including the temperature, again, is a lot of detail that cannot be condensed in the space of a minute.
  129. The international forecast is similar by nature. We, this year, actually increased the amount of cities internationally on our international forecast. So it is, about now, twice the size as it was a year ago. And just to refer to our problem again is the amount of -- the volume of information in that short space.
  130. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you. I need a bit of help with the pronunciation of your last name. If I could just hear it again, please?
  131. MS B. UJEJSKA: Ujejska.
  132. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Ujejska. Thank you, Ms Ujejska.
  133. Turning now to the alternative service model you have proposed in response to the deficiencies, could you please describe your consultations with representatives of the blind community to determine the reasonableness or acceptability of this alternative?
  134. MR. P. MORRISSETTE: I would like both Paul and Luc to address that question.
  135. MR. L. PERREAULT: We met with two significant groups in both Toronto and Montreal national associations: the MIRA Group, which provide guide dogs to blind people in Quebec, and also the RAMM, which is the association of visually-impaired and blind people for Quebec. They represent over 1,200 members. We have had extensive consultations with these two groups, and they are not looking for the exact same information we display on screen. And to our programming people, this was very interesting information.
  136. Just to give you an example, we will forecast a 15 to 20-centimetre snowfall. The visually-gifted people will look outdoors and know exactly how much snow has fallen. For a blind person, snow accumulation is key, because I have learned, through my consultations with MIRA, that snow on the ground will acutely affect their hearing. They might not hear a car coming because snow will dampen the sound. So we don't do snow accumulation for our regular viewers, but we found out that for blind people snow accumulation is going to be key.
  137. As well as for the UV report, we give an actual reading of the UV conditions. For visually-impaired viewers, it is extremely important for them to know at which time of the day the UV level is going to be the highest.
  138. So we do think that this solution that we are proposing with the SAP channels will be catered to their needs, and not to the needs of the population of our viewership that it is actually being created for.
  139. So we will have to come up with specific products that will have specific significance to the visually impaired, and we have learned that through these consultations. And these people that we have met represent thousands of blind people, and we still are talking to them on a monthly basis. We have regular meetings with them, and we will continue having regular meetings with them. And as you saw in their intervention file by the Quebec group, the Quebec association, the person who filed the intervention is responsible for accessibility and transport of visually-impaired people in Quebec. So we will keep talking to this association and learn from them, because the learning process is very important to Pelmorex.
  140. MR. P. TEMPLE: In addition, I have met with a number of individuals and groups specifically to discuss the SAP proposal. I think it was interesting, and I think, generally, the reaction was that it helps. It's a good start. Would it -- is it meeting all their needs? No. But I think the reaction -- I met with both individuals and associations. I went to actually the Toronto Chapter meeting of the Canadian Council for the Blind and spoke to a group of about two or three dozen blind and visually-impaired people. We had quite a good chat and got some interesting ideas. Some people like the idea of the regional reports that we proposed.
  141. Another suggestion that we had for the SAP is rather than give a regional report, to actually identify eight or ten major centres in each region and give the weather for those centres. So rather than just kind of the regional report for the prairies, pick out the Winnipegs and Saskatoons and Reginas and Calgary, and do more detail there rather than trying to cover. The problem is, when you talk with someone else, they didn't like that too much. They liked the regional report.
  142. So we're still kind of, I guess, talking with people to try and get some kind of either consensus or a sense of what the best content is to put on those SAP channels, but I think most people that we talk with recognize it is a good start. There are limitations to SAP, no doubt about it, but I found the discussions very positive, and they seem quite interested in working with us to develop a more enhanced service on the SAP.
  143. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Perreault and Mr. Temple.
  144. Mr. Morrissette, what is the timetable for implementing this proposed service?
  145. MR. P. MORRISSETTE: Insofar as our current proposal, we're talking within -- we're talking the next few months in terms of implementation.
  146. One thing that I want to make loud and clear is we are totally committed to this particular solution, but beyond that, to an ongoing dialogue with representatives of this community and other communities too, with a view of factoring in their needs and requirements into the ongoing development and evolution of our service. And we hope, because we are an innovative group technologically -- we hope to constantly, through constant investigation and also developing our own initiatives, to enhance this current proposal over time within the bounds of viability and affordability.
  147. There is no question that the interventions from Mr. and Mrs. Stark has heightened our awareness and our sensitivity to the needs of this particular community, and we are committed to seek out solutions and implement them over time, that by the end of the next licence term we will have surpassed this current proposal that we are making.
  149. The Starks, of course, will get their opportunity a little later in the process.
  150. We note that according to your calculations the majority of your programming is already accessible. Would the proposed regional audio service provided on the SAP complement the main audio track, in example, incorporate the existing audio portions of the main service while providing regional information during the pauses, or would the programming on the SAP be discreet?
  151. MR. P. TEMPLE: I think our initial proposal is that the SAP audio -- by discreet, would you mean unique or specific for the SAP? I think that was our ---
  152. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Specific to the SAP.
  153. MR. P. TEMPLE: It would be specific for the SAP because that would ensure that we can try and address -- as Luc was mentioning earlier, there may be specific elements that we want to put in or emphasise.
  154. But I see the SAP audio service as evolving because as we do talk, as I mentioned earlier, one suggestion was "Don't do a regional. Pick the major centres." I think what we will probably do is start with the regional, and then go out and talk to a bunch of people, "How do you like it? Do you use it? What would you like changed? Is there a way to improve it?" So what we may end up providing a year later could be slightly different, but I think in all cases it would be different from the -- it wouldn't just be a regurgitation of what we're already saying with the on-air presenter.
  155. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Just to flush that out a bit more, would it be feasible to synchronise the main audio track with the SAP so that visually-impaired subscribers are able to access a service that combines the programming that was already accessible with the new regional reports delivered while text is being displayed, and would such an approach raise any additional cost, technical or practical issue?
  156. MR. P. TEMPLE: Well, if we just put the audio -- if we -- on the SAP channel, if we carried the main audio and only inserted new information at the time of a graphic or text element, then we would only be able to put little segments of information that would be of no value, because you would only have 30 seconds or, at most, a minute and a half to try and do a regional report or an update on eight centres. It just ---
  157. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's not feasible.
  158. MR. P. TEMPLE: Well, and it wouldn't be of any value.
  159. What we were looking at, our approach, and I think that's where we got good feedback, was to supplement, use the SAP as a supplement so that if you're listening to the main audio, but you want to hear a regional report for your area, you can go to the SAP at any time and get it, as opposed to waiting until it goes to text and then trying to squeeze in a bunch of information in 30 or 60 seconds, which would be of little or no value.
  160. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Have you considered the possibility of providing the new regional audio reports as part of the main service rather than just on the SAP?
  161. MR. P. TEMPLE: Well, in a sense, those -- in a sense, those regional audio reports are already on the main service, as Basia can maybe talk to this, but obviously, during the course of the programming, on-air presenters are discussing the weather in each region as well as nationally, but I think this would be more of a supplement or a customisation, if you will, on the SAP channel.
  162. But I don't know if Basia has anything to add?
  163. MS B. UJEJSKA: Our current regional reports on the national network and MétéoMédia are a breakdown, sort of one or two provinces consist of a region, and it carries several icons, again, detailed information particular to that region. And again, there's a lot of volume of information there, and when an on-air presenter is presenting on that specific region, they will do a general overview and not get down to all the specifics that are actually shown visually on the map.
  164. The SAP channel, we would be able to give more specific details, as Luc and Paul had pointed out, and specifically catering to the needs of the visually impaired. It would be a much better product on the SAP channel for the visually impaired than what is carried on the National and MétéoMédia.
  165. MR. L. PERREAULT: To emphasise what Basia just said, a very important point are the weather warnings. Visually, they are seen on screen with a red page, but they might need to be repeated more often on the SAP channel for a specific region in times of violent weather. It might be thunder storms, hail or smog, or life-threatening conditions, for the visually-impaired people to access them more easily. And that's one of the huge benefits of the SAP channel, bringing that information to their attention more often.
  167. You stated that the regional reports would be updated at least every six hours. Is this consistent with your normal practices?
  168. MR. L. PERREAULT: For most of the weather forecasts, we update every six hours, but in times of difficult weather conditions, we might update every three hours, but those reports, regional reports, will be updated at the same time we update our regular on-air programming.
  170. You have proposed five regional reports: four for The Weather Network, one for MétéoMédia. Have you considered the feasibility of adding additional regional reports in the future to become more local, I guess?
  171. MR. P. TEMPLE: That's always a possibility. I mean, taken to the extreme, we would end up with 1,200 and we would be back to where we started originally. But I guess that option is always available. There is a cost clearly associated with that.
  172. I think our -- what we would like to do is get it up and running and just get out and talk to people and see how they like it and how we can improve it, and if we can find ways to affordably add to that, then I think that would be something we would look at.
  173. MS B. UJEJSKA: Just to add to that, we listen to our viewers and audience feedback that we get regularly for The Weather Network and MétéoMédia, and we are constantly changing, updating and adding to our maps, locations, places. If we can fit it on, if it's always feasible, then we will do it, and hopefully we will constantly be adapting and improving as we go along.
  174. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. Thank you, Ms Ujejska.
  175. I am going to move into a new area of questioning. This area will deal with interactivity, and I'm trying to gather information so we can decide if it's appropriate to include interactivity in a nature of service definition at this time. So that's the focus of these next group of questions.
  176. There are three main areas that I want to gather information on. So you can focus your replies to help us with this. The objective is to provide Pelmorex an opportunity to argue why the Commission should approve this proposal, despite its current position on interactivity, which I'm sure you are aware of, and to determine the impact on distributors in terms of system development and new band width developments, as well as associated capital and operating costs, and to determine the impact of denying this proposed amendment. So the questions that I'm going to go through now will try and work from that perspective.
  177. As you are aware, the Commission recently issued a public notice on the principles that should guide the launch of Category I and II services in which we stated it was too soon to be dealing with questions of interactivity.
  178. Would you care to comment on why you believe a different approach is warranted in your case?
  179. MR. P. MORRISSETTE: Yes, I would be pleased to.
  180. Firstly, interactivity in a digital world for The Weather Network and MétéoMédia is going to be a vital and integral part of our programming.
  181. But before I speak about the future, I would like to speak about the past for a moment. One of the unique characteristics of our national networks is that the main need and demands of our viewers is for local information. So we are national networks whose lifeline is distributing local information. And that has been allowed to -- or been accomplished through our patented PMX technology. If we were not able to provide local information, we would not have a viable service. We would not have -- we would not meet our viewers' needs. Therefore, we would probably not be in business.
  182. So localisation is really the essence of our service. It's what sets us apart. Nobody else has this capability in Canada. We are unique. So that has been one of the key factors for our success to date.
  183. Our PMX technology is great, but that's the analogue world. The PMX technology is not a digital technology. It's an analogue technology. There is no question that, starting now, and over the long term, we will see the digital world consume more and more market share of overall distribution, and eventually, some time in the future, we will be in the 100 per cent digital distribution mode.
  184. Our solution for localisation in the digital world which, again, is the essence of our business, is through interactive television programming. What we envisage is both The Weather Network and MétéoMédia through a digital system whereby the viewer can access information on demand, what they want when they want, through our channel into a menu of information that will provide them with very specific information that they request at that point in time.
  185. Without access to that interactive television programming, we would not be able to provide localisation and, therefore, in a digital world, the very essence of our service is basically not available and, therefore, in a digital world, our existence becomes questioned without interactivity.
  186. The other important element is we are an information service, and weather information is one of the most applicable categories for interactivity. In a parallel mode, we operate internet websites. It so happens that weather, as a category on the web, is one of the most popular information categories. We rank amongst the top websites in Canada, and our minority partner, The Weather Channel with a service in the U.S. also ranks amongst one of the top sites, not just in the U.S., but in the world.
  187. And why is that? Because weather, as an information category, lends itself perfectly to people seeking information that they need and want when they want it. It's personalised and on demand.
  188. Well, the same applies to the future world of interactive television, which is starting now. We are not premature. We are just at the very early stages. And we have been thinking about this. We have been thinking about our digital solution for localisation for many years now, because for us it's a survival issue.
  189. And as you know, I mean, we are an information service, but we are also a database service. Our distribution system is very complex. So we spend a lot of time figuring out the technology solutions for this. We have been working for several years now in terms of testing and experimenting in applications involving ITV. We are not planning to start this next month or next year. I mean, we've been doing it for three or four years.
  190. And it would be interesting to note, during the mid-'90's for about four or five years, we were launching Weather Network/MétéoMédia-type services in Europe. And the most successful service that was launched in Europe, and still exists and still is doing very well, is La Chaîne Météo in France. And it's main distributor, and by far the leading affiliate that we had, was Canal Satellite, a direct-to-home service. One of the most popular services on the Canal Satellite offering was La Chaîne Météo. Why? Because five years ago, they started experimenting and offering interactive television to their subscribers. Initially, they carved up France into 16 pages of regional information. A year later, it was about 30 pages. A year later, it was up to 60 pages. They kept progressing and evolving in terms of their capability. Today it's several hundred pages of information. That's a lot of information. And their viewers could navigate to the region, the site and the information they wanted when they wanted to. And it was the only service that was really capable of doing that. Again, because it's weather. That's what people want when they want weather. It's constantly changing, so it's constantly updated, and people tune in many times a day.
  191. So in a digital world, it's absolutely essential for us. And for an information service in our category, more than any other category probably, it's, again, the most applicable. And on most websites today that offer tremendous amounts of information and content -- I'm talking about portals -- one of the most popular pages, one of the most popular icons is the weather button. That's where people go to most often.
  192. Why is The Weather Network, in an analog world, the most watched specialty network in Canada, both The Weather Network and MétéoMédia? We are. People don't tune in for a long time, but so many people tune in so many times per week that we are the most frequently consulted television network in Canada in specialty television. And it's because of the category that we're in that is very, very popular to Canadians.
  193. So we are starting today to map out our future. We're talking about the next seven years, we are hoping for licence term, and a lot is going to happen in the world of ITV during that period. And just as we view PMX localized programming as an integral part of our programming and the essence of what we do, well, it's no different in a digital world down the road that ITV is also going to be an integral part of our programming.
  194. Luc just passed me a note. We have been testing with Videotron for several months now in terms of their ITV offering, and the initial feedback is that the weather application for MétéoMédia ranks as their number one service sought out in their interactive offering.
  195. Paul would like to add a few comments.
  196. MR. P. TEMPLE: I think what we have tried to explain is why it is so critical to us. I think part of your question was also, you know, Should the Commission adopt or embrace the proposal that we're making, and I think in addition to the fact that it's critical to us, the most positive step the Commission can make to encourage the development of interactivity in Canada is to eliminate uncertainty.
  197. Uncertainty is going to hinder, prolong and complicate the roll-out of interactivity in Canada. If there are not clear rules so that people can move ahead, we are not going to have interactivity for a long time, and we are going to lag.
  198. Our approach is to incorporate that into a condition of licence so that the rules are clear. And to our thinking, that is the best public policy approach to speed it up, eliminate uncertainty and to ensure that interactivity contributes to the Canadian broadcasting system. Our approach will ensure that the content we distribute interactively will be consistent with our nature of licence. It will ensure that revenues that we derive from interactivity are ploughed back into the system in accordance with our other conditions of licence. It will establish priority, who gets on, who decides, who pays.
  199. Without these things being addressed and answered, we're going to see a long, antagonistic -- I hope not, but possibly antagonistic negotiations and talks. So it worries us because this is so fundamental to our service. Maybe for other services, they can afford the luxury of time, but if we can't provide local information to digital customers as we do to analog, we have a big problem.
  200. MR. P. MORRISSETTE: If I could just add one additional point. It's also an access issue. Quite frankly, our worst nightmare is not being able to provide an interactive television enhancement to our existing channel, being shut out basically, while a walled garden type of BDU portal would contain detailed weather content, and all of a sudden we're at a disadvantage because we have not been provided access concurrently to -- we don't have a problem with walled gardens containing all kinds of different content. All we want is when the interactive capability is available with a specific BDU, that we be given access to that to enhance our programming with this integral part of our programming because we are very confident that from that point on, there is no question that our content and information, which will be totally consistent with the description of our existing service, will prevail because of the quality and accuracy and just the popularity of our information. So access for us is a significant concern down the road.
  202. In response to deficiencies, you have indicated you would work with distributors. You have talked about beginning some early work with Videotron. You would work with the distributors to ensure a minimum of costs.
  203. What new costs and operational requirements do you project distributors would have to bear to accommodate your interactive proposals? And what about in the later stages, when you add in audio and full-motion video, is your proposal compatible with the current generation of set top-boxes, and at what stage in the development of your interactive service would an upstream return path be needed? And can you provide details on how this would work with the satellite providers? So, I guess, what is the impact on the BDUs and how do you plan to work with them, and what is the magnitude of the challenge?
  204. MR. P. TEMPLE: I guess the simple answer is that we are prepared to try and deliver our interactive content to whatever platform the BDU selects. And Jean-Pierre may kind of correct my terminology or help me out a little later.
  205. But we are not seeking to tell the BDU how to do it. If they select one approach, they select this kind of box with Liberate software, we will provide content.
  206. So in that sense, there's no cost. We're not saying "You've got to do this or you've got to do that." Just tell us what it is, how it works, and we'll deliver the content to you, compatible with your system, and we'll do our best to do that so that they won't be having costs.
  207. We may have to put equipment in place. We have suggested that if the BDU is receptive, we might want to put equipment in their location. If they don't want it, we won't do it. It won't make the service as good. So if I was a BDU and I wanted to provide good service, I might be inclined to accept having equipment located near my headend, but if they say no, that's okay by us. So there's no cost there at all.
  208. The only real cost is in the use of band width, and there, I guess there's a couple of things. The band width we would typically use is -- small is probably an exaggeration. You know, if I go back to the digital licensing, there was a lot of talk about crawl, walk and run in terms of interactivity. We're at the crawl stage. A lot of the information we would be providing interactivity takes very little band width and, ironically, it's probably one of the most popular elements of our programming. Maybe towards the end of the licence term we might be doing satellite images or weather information clips, but the driving force, as Mr. Morrissette referred to earlier, is being able to get what is the pollen count this afternoon? What's tomorrow's forecast. And that is typically a simple text and graphics page which uses little band width.
  209. More fundamentally though -- and I find it interesting that we're what, I don't know, a thousand times less than one second of the VOD movie. So if I order a VOD movie, my bandwidth use in the downstream in one second would be the equivalent of 1,000 people asking for one page. So I haven't figured out how many seconds are in the typical movie ---
  210. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's because you're crawling, so to speak, but eventually you'll be up and walking tall with the rest of them, I would imagine.
  211. MR. P. TEMPLE: And that leads to a fundamental principle that, I guess, in our view, and I think even suggested by the CCTA, the consumer should pay.
  212. If a consumer wants interactive products, should they not pay? If I want a VOD movie, I suspect I'll pay. If I want to go on the Mystery Channel and select the ending I want, and that's going to use bandwidth, should I pay or should the BDU try and negotiate with the service provider and go through those negotiations, trying to extract the revenue from the programmer to pay for the bandwidth?
  213. In the analog world that we operate in now, the consumer pays, and we just see the extension into digital as a natural extension of that approach. If a consumer wants VOD, they should pay. That's a certain bandwidth they are going to use. Maybe a BDU might say, "We'll have a digital service, but if you want interactivity, it's a flat rate. It's three extra bucks a month." Or they may say, "Depending on how much interactive bandwidth you're using, it's $0.50 cents for whatever it is after that." It's more along the lines of internet access. In internet access, the internet service supplier, whether it's cable or telephone, they don't go to a web site and say, "Hey, give me some money." The consumer pays. Sometimes they pay per hour, per access, or whatever, but that's the model that works in the analog world, and that's the model. So if there are costs to bandwidth use, in our view, that should be paid by the consumer.
  215. At what stage in the development to your interactive service would an upstream return path be needed? Immediately?
  216. MR. P. TEMPLE: Yes.
  217. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So if that's the case, how would this work with the satellite providers, ExpressVu and StarChoice?
  218. MR. P. TEMPLE: Well, I'll just get Jean-Pierre to help me out, but if a BDU has return capability, then we will be able to accommodate that. If the BDU doesn't have return capability, they will presumably select a system that will allow them an element of interactivity even though there isn't a return path, and we will accommodate that.
  219. So satellite, for instance, may select a technology that is, in effect, a carousel, I think is the term. They're just cycling pages by, and you grab the page you want. We would have no problem with that. It's not -- it doesn't require a return path.
  220. MR. J.P. BOULANGER: I will add to that. As you mentioned there is the DTH. In the case of the DTH, there is -- we can develop a small piece of software that ends up in the set-top box and certified by the original manufacturer. In other words, you don't need a return path to do that. You send the side channel. The equivalent of a side channel with ---
  221. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Kind of like an on-board memory or something like that?
  222. MR. J.P. BOULANGER: It's not really on-board memory. It does not consume memory. It's a piece of software which is attached to our main channel, and when somebody tunes to our channel, it will receive both the data and the small software to interpret and put the data on the screen. In that context, you don't need return path. And that exists today for the DTH box an order box, except we need access to the box to do that.
  223. To give you a flavour of that, if we were to do it today, to make a product similar to what we are doing with the PMX currently, we are probably looking at adding under three per cent of the bandwidth required to carry strictly our own signal. That's the order we are thinking of. It's not large.
  224. As far as the bandwidth for the other consideration, the previous questioning you were mentioning, for the ones which are more like a return path, the bandwidth consumed is not really driven by us. It's driven by the subscriber looking at the product, and the subscriber will take bandwidth no matter which channel he is looking at, interactively speaking, and he will not be consuming bandwidth if nobody looks at us, and a single subscriber cannot look at two different services at the same time.
  225. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes, I agree with that, but what would the bandwidth implications be if providing audio and full-motion videos? Say, for example, two per cent of Toronto were to access this feature at the same time, wouldn't that have an enormous impact on the distributors?
  226. MR. J.P. BOULANGER: The audio and video that everybody speaks of is not really yet there in the sense of set-top box except where they will consume a lot of bandwidth for the VOD, and that will take probably more than a few years from now, when you will have downloading facilities and hard disks and more powerful set-top boxes.
  227. Now there is a clip, and even that, according to how you implement it versus a full video that goes on for 10-15 minutes, that's a big difference in bandwidth consumption again. Yes, it will consume more. Audio will consume maybe even more than video at some point in time, but it's not tomorrow morning.
  228. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: If it's not tomorrow morning, at what point do you project audio and full-motion video would be made available?
  229. MR. J.P. BOULANGER: If I speak technically, when the technical side will make sense of it, which is right -- not today because it will consume too much. I cannot speak for ---
  230. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Within the licence term perhaps?
  231. MR. J.P. BOULANGER: I will leave ---
  232. MR. T. EMERSON: My thinking on this issue is it's hard to predict when you can launch different services, higher, more advanced services, bandwidth. The reason for that there is sort of one of the fundamental rules about interactive TV is that the services that we can offer subscribers to our channel are those that distribute or will build into their broadcast system; i.e. we can't supply something if the functionality has not been created by the distributor to do that. We have to work within the interactive bounds that distributors create on their systems, whether it's DTH, whether it's cable, and depending on functionality, they put on the set-top boxes of their customers. So that's the environment we're working in.
  233. When these features are launched is largely dependent on what distributors do.
  234. With respect to bandwidth, they have to choose interactive TV systems to obviously handle the traffic that their customers will be using. So for example, they won't create or implement a system that would feasibly overload the bandwidth of their network; i.e. they have to provide a stable, reliable service to their customer. So the technology that they provide, the way that they will transmit whether it's audio or video won't be transmitted in a way that could potentially build up and build up and build up; i.e. they will have to use functions that send video to the nodes, to the end, to the edge of the edge of the system, or they'll use a technology that carousels content, i.e. broadcast content, and then the subscriber will pick from that.
  235. So it's not a case where you could have too many users all of a sudden accessing interactive platform and the whole thing would go kaput. It's not really a technical possibility, given the fact that the distributor has to create a stable system.
  236. So we can't really speak as to when they'll be launched, but we would like to provide -- obviously work with them to launch the most advanced and enjoyable and revealing services that we possibly can. So whether we're talking about an upstream service or the upstream return path or bandwidth or the impact overall, our services won't intend to have an impact on their systems at all.
  237. MR. P. MORRISSETTE: And if I can just add, there's no doubt in my mind that of all the interactive applications, that ours would probably be one of the least consuming of bandwidth just due to the very nature of the service, which will always be predominantly data presented in the graphic form. Mind you, we will have animated satellite and radar imagery and things along these lines, but our research shows that that's what people want the most, seek out the most, more so than, say, videoclips on news elements and what have you. We would like to evolve to make that available, but it will always be a secondary element in terms of subscriber consumption.
  238. I would like to make one other point. You had addressed a few questions in the world of DTH a few moments ago. Right now, we are not in a position to provide localization in DTH, and of all the feedback that we get from our subscribers coat to coast, and that's a growing segment of our subscriber base -- we're talking about 15 per cent of our subscribers now are DTH subscribers, and we hear loud and clear from them constantly, "Where's my local information? When I used to be on cable, I used to get all my local information, but now I'm direct-to-home. That's not available." And interactivity for direct-to-home is a huge solution to correct that problem.
  239. In fact, right now, when we provide localization, people have to wait for the information based on the schedule. A huge benefit of interactivity is that you get the information you want on demand. It's instant. And in terms of the direct-to-home market segment, this would enable them to take advantage of this new level of localized information, but at a value-added level, and would put them on an even-level playing field in terms of offering a service as attractive as other modes of distribution.
  240. So that market segment has been an issue for us, and this is a huge opportunity, not just for us, but for DTH/BDUs and their subscribers.
  241. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I have one more question before we take a break. You've suggested that the capacity to provide interactive features is vital to Pelmorex's ongoing success.
  242. How important is Commission authorization of your plan through an amendment to your nature of service? How important is mandatory carriage of your interactive element? Would you still proceed to implement interactivity even if you didn't get mandatory carriage?
  243. So I can repeat the main parts of that question, if you want. It was kind of long. How important is Commission authorization? You have said it's -- you have talked about the capacity to provide interactive features as vital to your ongoing success. So how important is mandatory carriage of your interactive element? And would you still proceed even if you didn't get mandatory carriage?
  244. MR. P. TEMPLE: I'm trying to address those questions. How important it is for Commission authorization, I think it's absolutely critical. Going back to the earlier comments, the best way to get interactive services going in Canada is for the Commission to eliminate uncertainty, and that would just get it going.
  245. I will let Pierre talk a little more about how important it is, but mandatory -- we are not saying that you have to distribute our interactive content if you don't have the capability. So it's not like we're showing up and saying, "Hi, I'm here. You've got to do this." If they don't have the capability, then we don't expect distribution. So mandatory, I'm not quite sure I would use that word, but what we would say is, "If you have the capability to do interactive services, then as a licensed service, I think you should include our interactive programming because that's going to help build the Canadian broadcasting system. But if you can't do it, that's okay." So in that sense, whether that's mandatory or not, I don't know. But I would think that we're not helping the system if a BDU has the capability, maybe has some of their services on, maybe has unlicensed services on, and I'm still negotiating with them. I don't think that's helping the system. So that's what we are trying to hit off at the pass, and that's why it's so important. And in that extent, if it's mandatory, I guess it's mandatory.
  246. If the Commission is not comfortable with our approach, I mean, we have to do interactivity and we're doing anyway. We'll just kind of hope for the best. But as Mr. Morrissette explained, we have to have interactivity in a digital environment. Otherwise, our service has some problems in meeting the needs of our viewers.
  247. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Given the commercial and technical issues that would have to be resolved, wouldn't the marketplace sort this out more efficiently and equitably than a ruling from a Commission?
  248. MR. P. TEMPLE: A lot of people are working real hard right now on interactivity. I mean, there's a lot going on, but there's not -- I mean, we have to separate the technical issues from the rules of the game, and that's what we're seeking here. We're not looking for a technical solution. If there's technical problems and it can't happen for three more years ---
  250. MR. P. TEMPLE: --- okay. But what are the rules, so that when we go to work with BDUs, we're not, on a case-by-case basis, trying to come up with the rules, because that's going to delay it, and that's our big concern.
  251. MR. P. MORRISSETTE: If I can just jump in and reinforce how vital this is for us. Localization for The Weather Network and MétéoMédia, if I can use this example, is as vital as music videos are to MuchMusic. It's the essence of the service. All of our -- we do an awful lot of market research because we're in the business of meeting the needs of our viewers. It comes through loud and clear every time increasingly that localization is what they need and want the most.
  252. And I indicated earlier -- we all indicated earlier that in a digital world, interactivity is the solution for that.
  253. So it really boils down to we will work with all of the BDUs in Canada to adapt their differing systems and technologies and specs to come up with a common product at the end of the day, but adapted to their individual technologies, but we're not going to be charging the subscriber more for this -- for our interactive service. And whatever limited, I think, revenues that we will be able to derive from the enhanced ITV programming, we are going to plough back, based on our conditions of licence, into our programming commitments and 100 per cent Canadian content. It's just going to be a part of -- it's like the two arms of our service. It's just an essential element.
  254. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Do you have that international section and the little bit of travelers in that 100 per cent Canadian content then?
  255. MR. P. MORRISSETTE: Well, all the information is produced in Canada by our resources. We access data from different sources around the world, but bottom line, we are 100 per cent Canadian content. I don't know if there are too many like that in Canada.
  256. The other thing is -- well, this might come up in a later round of questioning, but it's a very people-intensive business because we're live in Canadian content all the time.
  257. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. That's been a good -- we have covered two sections. There's a couple more to go, and I suggest it's an appropriate time for break.
  258. THE CHAIRPERSON: And I will agree with him. So we will take a break until five minutes past 11:00.

    --- Upon recessing at 10:49 a.m./L'audience est suspendue à 10h49

    --- Upon resuming at 11:10 a.m./L'audience est reprise à 11h10

  259. THE CHAIRPERSON: Before we start, I am going to ask the Secretary to just review what our procedure is going to be between now and our lunch break.
  260. MR. M. BURNSIDE: It's the Commission's intention -- the Panel's intention to finish this item before lunch as well as the first two intervenors listed on the agenda. The intervenors, the first two will be done in reverse order. Mr. Stark would come first on the intervention list, and the CCTA second. That will probably necessitate a later lunch than normal, but we will go as long as necessary to finish that part of the agenda before lunch.
  261. Thank you, Madame Chair.
  262. THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
  263. Commissioner Williams?
  264. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And I will do my best to help us achieve that goal by keeping the questions concise to leave more time for the answers.
  265. This next section deals with the reasonableness of the requested rate increase, and also, to determine the impact should the Commission deny the proposed rate increase.
  266. Your request is ---
  267. MR. M. BURNSIDE: Excuse me, Commissioner Williams, I just notice legal counsel is not here.
  268. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, we will ---
  269. THE CHAIRPERSON: We definitely must wait for them.
  270. MR. M. BURNSIDE: They are arriving.
  271. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So Mr. Secretary, we can proceed now?
  272. MR. M. BURNSIDE: You certainly can.
  273. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. Your requested increase in a basic monthly fee is based, in part, on economic need and the fact that your rate has not kept pace with other English and French dual status specialty services.
  274. In your view, is a comparison to the wholesale rate of other services a valid indication of economic need? Is the rate not also related to the cost structure of the individual service and the results of a competitive licensing process? And do you agree that economic need is more a function of profitability rather than what the current rate is, particularly given the Commission's ongoing concerns with the affordability of basic service?
  275. MR. P. MORRISSETTE: Well, firstly, you are quite correct in presenting our case for a very modest rate increase to be premised on economic need.
  276. Just as a matter of introduction, and for the record, The Weather Network and MétéoMédia are probably one of the most complex networks in this country, and also a very expensive type of service to produce and present and distribute.
  277. We are very people-intensive. It's an information service in two languages, two separate programming services, virtually live all day long, every day of the year. It's probably most akin to a news-type service, and we all know that news is one of the most expensive categories to produce.
  278. But the nature of our service is such that we require resources, people resources in a number of categories that just don't apply to other networks.
  279. An example: We have about 30-35 meteorologists on staff to produce our quality content day in and day out. Because it's substantially technology-dependant in a database type of service as well, we have about 20 people who do nothing but develop software to constantly upgrade and adapt our network to evolving needs and opportunities offered by technology. And these are inherent elements of our cost structure. So providing national live information services is a very expensive, people-intensive operation. It's also because of the dependence on technology. It tends to be capital-intensive, constantly reinvesting and upgrading and evolving our network.
  280. For instance, our localisation technology, as I indicated before, which is integral to our service, we're into our fifth generation of localisation technology, and that's not going to end. Interactivity is going to be our sixth, and we are going to have several generations of that particular technology that drives our service.
  281. So what I am saying is that MétéoMédia and The Weather Network are very expensive operations to run and operate.
  282. As we have evolved, our success has contributed to increasing significantly our cost base. When you go from serving 300 affiliates to 1,260 affiliates in about a seven-year timeframe, this just drives every aspect, every component of our cost categories in our various activities, from the technical people who constantly update and upgrade the profiles of our localisation terminals in each headend, in terms of the administrative side of the operation. So it's a point that I want to get across that we have increased our cost base significantly during the year, but notwithstanding that, we continue to be one of the most efficient operations that exist in Canada on a per subscriber cost basis.
  283. So when we look at economic need, which was one of your prime questions, the main criteria that we have used to assess that, in comparing ourselves to other networks, is not relative subscriber rates. We are one of the lower subscriber fees that is charged amongst the various services, not the lowest, but definitely in the lower gear of all the services, and we want to keep it low, as low as possible over time.
  284. But when we compare our service in terms of profit margins, and the key indicator there is profit before taxes -- interest and taxes, PBIT, that's where we recognize that we are significantly lower than the average of other dual status, analogue services. And not only that, but the trend is ongoing decline in that particular measure.
  285. We have taken full advantage of our major growth opportunities in the last seven years in terms of subscriber growth to the point where we are almost fully penetrated today. So going forward, sure, there is still a few years of attractive growth in the DTH sector, but we see that levelling off and fully factored that into our forecast.
  286. In terms of advertising, our best years of growth in advertising are behind us. We achieved significant growth in advertising because we drove up our audience share from a 0.3 to a 1.0 share, as I indicated earlier. For us to increase that share beyond the 1.0 share, we are hoping to do that, but we are into the law of diminishing the turn and, therefore, advertising growth, we expect to carry on in future, but definitely not at the rates of growth that we have experienced in the past. Yet, we will continue to experience an ongoing increase, although we are going to continue to strive to be as efficient as we have been in the past in terms of the cost structure.
  287. So when we look at the results of all this, what we see is an ongoing trend to a declining PBIT margin.
  288. What we are all about, we are not a status quo operation, and we are in it for the long haul. We constantly invest in our future to improve our service. You know, we have achieved a lot of success. We are one of the most widely distributed services, and I think that partially demonstrates the attractiveness of the service, but what does demonstrate the attractiveness of the service is that we have emerged as the most -- as I said earlier -- the most frequently consulted of all the specialty networks, most frequently watched network. We are one of the top brands in the last CBC study. We emerged as the number one brand amongst the specialty networks. So we have achieved an awful lot of success, and we want to keep that ball rolling for the future.
  289. In terms of our two major initiatives of reinvesting into enhancements of our service, we indicated interactivity as first and foremost, and we are going to do regardless. We are obviously concerned, as we described earlier, about the importance of interactivity for us.
  290. The other initiative is the east-west feed, and that -- the cost of that would be at such a level that for us would be difficult to accomplish and would not be feasible to accomplish without the rate increase that we are seeking.
  291. MR. P. TEMPLE: I think Mr. Morrissette's going to address the cost structure elements of your question.
  292. I think the first element that was whether it was fair to compare ourselves to other services, I think was the first element of your question, and there, comparing our rate to someone else's and using that as a justification for a rate increase is not something that we did, and I don't think that's a valid -- just because someone had a dollar, it doesn't mean we should have a dollar, and we have not taken that approach.
  293. However, the Commission does regulate the basic rate, and there is, unlike in telecom at one time, and in cable, where there was specific criteria. In the case of cable, it was return on average, net fixed assets, and if you were below a certain amount, you were eligible. There's no benchmark for programming services, but it is, I think, worthwhile to compare what the Commission has typically looked at for programming services, which is a profit before interest and taxes, because that kind of is a percentage. It's a fair comparison, and that is where we have compared ourselves to other services. The slide up now shows that our PBIT is significantly lower than a number of the other services. Interestingly, I believe every one of those services has received an increase in the past.
  294. So what we are trying to do in comparing is saying, in comparison on something where it is a fair service comparison, we believe we are making a valid case for an increase based on economic need.
  295. It's quite right to say that the cost structures of the companies are very different, but when you look at it as a percentage, that gives you another picture or view. I mean, notwithstanding that, we, as Mr. Morrissette explained, we have some very unique and particular costs. We are labour-intensive. We are technology-intensive. Those drive our costs.
  296. Another comparison, if I can find it here, which I think is the valid -- a valid comparison -- and I apologize because the writing is a little small at the bottom there. I think we were trying to get too much on one slide. But I think it's basically those same services that were on the previous slide. Here we are comparing ourselves, our costs. Are we an efficient operator? And this tells us that we are very efficient. Our technical, sales, promotion and administrative costs per subscriber are among the lowest.
  297. Now, on the programming side people have different conditions of licence, different obligations, so it's a little harder to compare on that side, but when you look at the cost structure on a per subscriber basis, we come out as a very efficient operation, notwithstanding the fact that we have a low PBIT.
  298. Ultimately, that leads you to, I think, the last element of your question regarding to profitability, and that's what I think the Commission has looked at in the past in terms of a measure for programming services is the PBIT. And that, again, clearly -- I don't want to keep flipping between slides -- but the previous slide showed that we are well below the 20 per cent return.
  299. So where it's being fair to compare, we've compared, but we have also looked at the merits on its own case, and I think we believe we are eligible in both senses.
  300. MR. L. PERREAULT: To reinforce on what Pierre and Paul have just said, I would just like to explain to the Commission how different our services are. Any BDU, might it be cable, MDS or DTH operator decides to launch a new specialty service, they will call the service. They will do contract negotiations, and they will launch the service.
  301. In our specific case, and I brought one of our headend decoders, the PMX box, they have to call us, and then we have to get meteorologists to draft a weather profile for this affiliate. And then we have to create a specific decoder for that BDU, might it be cable operator, MDS or DTH, and then we have to send this equipment to the BDU in question, put it in service. When the equipment fails, we have a 24-hour a day, seven days a week resource that deals with technical failures and any technical questions that a BDU might have. If the equipment is defective, we have to replace it. No other broadcasting undertaking does this in Canada. We are unique. We do it in two languages. We do customer support for BDUs in two languages. And specifically now, we are creating different programs for different BDUs.
  302. When Cable Saskatchewan calls with 200 subscribers, we send them a PMX box with a profile for their area. When Image Wireless or Craig Wireless or Look TV calls, and they have a more regional type of programming, Jean-Pierre and his team will design a brand new product for this MDS operator. They will design a specific product for DTH operators. So these are extremely costly to the company, but does provide programming that is needed by the subscribers and by the BDU. So we are unique in that regard.
  303. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Perreault.
  304. In your economic need you have compared different rates and different PBIT scenarios. I guess if you would remove TSN from that equation, it would drop the average rate down to about 24 cents, TSN being a much higher priced specialty than the others, and it's in the comparison.
  305. However, the Commission generally uses the PBIT margin as an indicator of profitability. Your service achieved a PBIT of 18 per cent in 2000, and this compared to an average PBIT margins of 19 per cent for English specialty services, 14 per cent for private conventional television services and 16 per cent for private radio.
  306. Do you have any comments on these comparisons?
  307. MR. P. TEMPLE: I'm trying to do too many things at once here.
  308. I'm not sure how valid a comparison between radio and television is. That's something I don't think we have ---
  309. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Agreed. I think we just put that forward as indications of what others in the communications industry are achieving.
  310. MR. P. TEMPLE: What we have looked at is -- I guess we have looked at a whole bunch of criteria, PBIT being one, but to specifically address the PBIT, if in the absence of benchmarks established by the Commission, you know, if the Commission said: "A programming service with a PBIT of less than 20 per cent is eligible" or something, then clearly we would either be or be not eligible. But in this case, there is no clear mark. We have to go by what we believe is a fair and reasonable return. If other services have low PBITs, they should probably file an application and see if they can get an increase.
  311. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Or take a look at their business plan and manage a little tighter.
  312. MR. P. TEMPLE: Right.
  313. And we have done that. We have specifically gone through, I think, all the decisions of the Commission regarding programming specialty services and looked at the decisions made by the Commission, PBIT being one of them, ensuring that there's no inflation, that the business case is sound, that our past PBIT for the current licence term has not exceeded our projections at our last renewal, marketing costs. I mean, I can go through them all. I'm not quite sure how much time you want me to spend on that, but it's on that basis that we believe there is an economic need and that we meet all of the other criteria established by the Commission in its prior decisions. And that's why we've come forward.
  314. And I guess another consideration is the fact that the rate was 25 cents and that it was reduced. That reduction initiated by Pelmorex as part of the purchase, and those commitments have been met.
  315. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. Thank you.
  316. Your rate increase is also based on the implementation of this western feed -- or western and eastern feed, I guess. Your assumptions for your financial projections indicate that you expect an increase of 1,400 in your average minute for your target audience demographic as a result of the new feed.
  317. So one, did you undertake a market survey and a planning for the separate western feed. Two, is it possible the new feed could pay for itself in increased advertising revenues? And three, in an increasingly competitive environment, do you think it's fair that basic cable subscribers should be asked to pay for an improvement to your service? Is it not possible that you would be implementing the new feed in response to competition, and you are not a status quo company? You are always growing and moving forward. Would you not be doing some of this anyway?
  318. So the first one was did you do a market survey? Could the new feed pay for itself, and do you think it's fair to basic cable subscribers to pay for an improvement to your service?
  319. MR. P. TEMPLE: In terms of market research, that -- I am going to let Basia or Pierre talk more about that. But we have very active audience response lines and internet, and that is probably the desire to have more information relevant to the person's community. It's probably by far the single most attractive or sought after element. I mean, I have gone through them, and the people in the west say we spend too much time in the east, and the people in the east, they are claiming we spend too much time in the west, and everyone's complaining that we talk too much about central Canada. So we get that every day, dozens of e-mails and calls into both services. And it was based on primarily that everyday talking to our viewers that we established, I guess, our market research.
  320. In terms of paying for itself, we did establish -- and I just want to make sure I can bring it up -- we did include in our projected revenues incremental revenue because of the feed. So we established our kind of -- in our business plan what kind of advertising revenue will we get, and then we said, "Okay, well, if we do this enhancement, that's going to improve viewership. So what can we expect?" And what we did is we looked at our experience in Toronto and Montreal, where we had more specialized programming, looked at our average minute audiences, and then factored in increased viewership. So we have already included in our projections the benefit or the revenue increase for the east-west. We are not going to play any games or, you know, we'll try and get something extra. We included that in our projections. So that is in all our calculations already. We have accounted for that.
  321. In terms of fairness, I might ask you to repeat the question and just make sure I've got it.
  323. In an increasingly competitive environment, do you think that it is fair that basic cable subscribers be asked to pay for an improvement to your service?
  324. MR. P. TEMPLE: We are not -- just to ensure the record is straight, we are not asking for a rate increase to do the east-west feed. It is not predicated. Without the east-west feed, we believe that our case for an increase, based on economic need and meeting the other criteria of the Commission's past decisions, we are eligible for an increase.
  325. What we are saying, and maybe it's a bit of a nuance -- we're not saying, "I'm going to do the east-west feed to give me a rate increase." What we're saying is we're eligible, we believe, for an increase, and if you give us an increase, our history, our kind of -- we are going to put some of that back in, and that will allow us to do an east-west feed.
  326. But, for instance, if the Commission said, "You can't do an east-west feed. No way." Our argument is still that we are still eligible, under the Commission's past decisions and criteria, for an increase. So they are not ---
  327. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: They are not linked.
  328. MR. P. TEMPLE: --- linked.
  329. In terms of, I guess, the fairness, I found it interesting. I caught a bit of the CCTA's comments yesterday commenting on Vision. It seems ironic. They seem to be supportive. If there was something of value to the customer, then maybe that was a partial justification for an increase. Ironically, the Commission, in prior decisions, specifically YTV, when they proposed more Canadian content if you give me an increase, the Commission said no. So we have got the cable industry saying, "Give us something extra, and maybe that's a justification." And the Commission is saying, "Don't use giving something extra as justification for an increase." So who do you listen to?
  330. I think we have found the middle ground because we are not predicating the east-west on the increase, but if we get the increase, it will allow us to put more back into the service.
  331. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Maybe I have misunderstood some part of your application, but did you not state that implementation of this initiative is contingent on the two-cent increase?
  332. MR. P. TEMPLE: That's correct, but the increase is not contingent -- the reverse ---
  333. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The reverse isn't necessarily true.
  334. MR. P. TEMPLE: Right. If we don't get the increase, we can't do the east-west feed.
  336. MR. P. TEMPLE: But the increase is not justified on the east-west feed. It's based on economic need and meeting the past criteria in other Commission decisions.
  337. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. We didn't explore the scenario of just giving the increase and not getting some value for our money, so to speak. So you know, we have looked at scenarios like status quo and west feed only and west feed plus the increase, and west feed plus the increase, plus interactivity. So there's a variety. But just the increase is not something that we have considered a whole bunch so far.
  338. MR. P. TEMPLE: And it's not -- we want to do the east-west feed.
  340. MR. P. TEMPLE: We want the service to be better.
  341. MR. P. MORRISSETTE: If I can just add a comment on the research side. We do -- we have not done a specific market research study on east-west feed.
  342. However, we do extensive research several times a year, proprietary research and purchased research information. And one of the key elements of our business strategy is to be very focused, to really avoid distractions beyond being the best at what we do. And as a result of that, in our research and so on, we have developed a very intimate awareness of what our subscribers want and need. We view ourselves to be in business to meet their needs, and because we have done a really good job of that, we have been very successful.
  343. With all the feedback that we have obtained during the past several years, when we develop a list of opportunities to investment spending for the long haul to meet the needs of our viewers based on their feedback, there is no question that an east-west split feed ranks very high on the list, the top of the list.
  344. However, it is a very costly enhancement to our service and could only be supported financially by our company if we had the benefit of this rate increase, based on need, to reinvest a portion of that rate increase into this programming enhancement.
  345. Having said that, we also understand very clearly, based on just our experience in the past eight years, what that will translate into in terms of -- it won't add more subscribers, but we expect it will add to the length of viewing time and the frequency of viewing time of our subscribers both in the east and the west because our programming will be improved by that.
  346. So quite frankly, we don't believe that a specific market research study was required for us to properly and accurately reach the conclusions that we have.
  347. MS B. UJEJSKA: Just to expand on the east-west feed, I just wanted to better explain what that is all about as well. And also just to add to what Pierre just said in our recent market research that we did do, the top four categories that viewers told us that they want, number one, was the local forecast. Number two is the long-range forecast; three are highway conditions, and four is news. And the top three there alone are local specific. And what our viewers are telling us is they want local specific information.
  348. The east-west feed will allow us to do that in a more detailed and informative, in-depth manner.
  349. During extreme weather, for example, today there is smog advisories in Halifax, as we had in eastern and southern Ontario last week, whereas the west is experiencing unseasonably cold temperatures. During extreme weather we can better address those specific regions, those locals, those microcentres in small towns, advising them of the smog situation and what they can do about it and how they can -- how can they go about their day and prepare themselves for that specific condition.
  350. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. Thank you.
  351. I am going to move into another area now. This area will clarify your basic captioning commitments and recognize that much of Pelmorex's programming is inherently accessible to deaf subscribers, and we want to better understand your alternative proposal and understand the cost, human resource programming implications. There's only three or four questions in this area, but they are important questions.
  352. As you may know, the Commission requires captioning of 100 per cent of news programming, which is most often live.
  353. How is the real-time captioning of weather programming different from news programming?
  354. MS B. UJEJSKA: Firstly, we will be closed captioning our news by the end of this year in full. We carry news twice an hour.
  355. The difference between news and other closed caption features as well as PMX features on The Weather Network and MétéoMédia is that the map information that we present carries valuable graphs, isobars, cold fronts, warm fronts, icons, flood maps, things of that nature. Where in news we can show in text format what the anchorperson is saying, and in our features we can show in text format what is being said, with our map features we tend to have a lot of the information specifically to the national, regional, or local on the map. The picture, in a sense, tells the story. It is only enhanced by the on-air presentation. Now, that on-air presentation, we discussed several different scenarios where we might caption that specific on-air presentation.
  356. However, one problem that came up was that the closed captioning will be out of sync, as it tends to be in live presentation, so that when you have an on-air presenter showing specific regions in P.E.I., the closed captioning might be behind, slightly behind. It will be covering Ontario. And that delay can confuse the viewer.
  357. At the same time, the other problem that we have is that because on the lower third of our page, we carry valuable weather data information, the current conditions, and what we call a crawl in a two-box. That means we will have to raise the level of closed captioning for it to be above that so we don't cover that detail, and by raising it, we will be covering half our map information, half of the information that is actually shown on the map in pictures and animation, soon to be animation. So we feel that it would actually be an inferior product in the end.
  358. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Could you please describe how your alternative approach would work? When would the captions appear on screen? Where would they appear? How would you prevent them from interfering with the text and graphics, as you have just described there?
  359. MS B. UJEJSKA: Specifically, are you referring to the map?
  360. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes, well, interfering with the other graphics and text on the screen. Where would you -- in your proposal, how would you bring forward this captioning so it wouldn't interfere, so you wouldn't experience those problems? What is your concept of how to bring forward the captioning in a way that it wouldn't be detrimental to your service as it is now? And I guess where I am going with this is what impact would it have on your service if the Commission required you to provide captioning for 90 per cent of all spoken-word programming by the end of your licence term? So how would it impact your service?
  361. MR. P. TEMPLE: I just want to -- you are asking -- what we propose to do is caption all pre-recorded elements and our news. So there, those pre-recorded elements are typically vignettes and whatnot where captioning doesn't interfere with the content.
  363. MR. P. TEMPLE: The news element, as Basia explained, we'll be captioning. And again, that won't -- in some cases it will affect the visual, but that's ---
  364. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Not material.
  365. MR. P. TEMPLE: I think that's not an issue.
  366. So those two elements we will be captioning, and there is no concern about conflict or messing up the service.
  367. The PMX or graphic and text elements are captioned, in a sense, already. I mean, they're ---
  368. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: By the very nature of their captioning.
  369. MR. P. TEMPLE: And that, Basia can help me out, is seventy ---
  370. MS B. UJEJSKA: By the end of this year, it will be 76 per cent.
  371. MR. P. TEMPLE: So just in initiatives that we have proposed, we will be 76 per cent captioned. The balance ---
  372. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. That's 76 per cent of the total or 76 per cent of your spoken-word programming?
  373. MS B. UJEJSKA: It's 76 per cent captioned and text format. So some is spoken; some is in text format already.
  374. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. So if we required you to provide captioning for 90 per cent of all spoken-word programming by the end of your licence term, that would be attainable, I guess, is what I'm hearing?
  375. MS B. UJEJSKA: Well, our preference would be to not caption entirely the programs for the reasons that I mentioned.
  376. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Just the spoken word ones.
  377. MS B. UJEJSKA: Well, that's the map information that I was referring to, which is complemented by an on-air presentation. When we are showing a long-range forecast, for example, it's a presenter in front of a map showing systems and movement, isobars and some complementive adjectives saying "breezy, chilly, warn, unseasonably cold". Now, those are the elements that we wish not to caption because we feel that it would provide an inferior product to what is actually being shown. We feel that the maps themselves can tell the story. Some of those maps are icon maps where, again, you are looking at a picture of clouds and sun and lightning bolts, as well as temperature, and some of those maps are also what we call flood maps, which will show, say, snow on the ground for all over Canada, or even the extreme forest fire danger in various parts of Canada.
  378. MR. P. TEMPLE: I would just also like to add that we are hesitant to caption it for the reasons -- there's two reasons, and we are just talking about this element where there is an on-air person describing what is being displayed visually. Everything else will be available, either captioned or in text or graphic formats. So we are only talking about this element. And I guess we're reluctant for two reasons. One is the reason Basia said and the other is the cost. Now, we haven't costed it, but we are live and we are unscripted. And so we're not just taking a program and saying, "Oh, here, get this captioned so we can air it." It has to be live, all the time. It's two services. So we haven't costed that out, but I suspect that it wouldn't be insignificant because live captioning is more expensive and it creates a time delay, and that concerns us because if you're reading that there's a cold front in Saskatchewan and the person is pointing to a high in Vancouver, and all that information is displayed on a map anyway, we're not sure what value there will be for the money spent to caption that element, but everything else will be accessible.
  379. MS B. UJEJSKA: What is easier for us to do, of course, is our news because we do have -- it is scripted in terms of closed captioning, but as Paul pointed out, all our other presentation on air where we are showing maps is ad libbed, and it would be, I guess, almost the equivalent of showing 24 hours of Hockey Night in Canada, and the cost of something like that is significant.
  380. MR. P. MORRISSETTE: If I can just add that the bottom line, Commissioner Williams, is that, you know, as with the case of the visually-impaired community, we are aware and sensitive to the needs and requirements of this market segment, and we are committed to captioning directly, and I guess I say indirectly, or a captioning equivalent to the maximum extent of our programming to meet the needs of that community.
  381. And as has been indicated twice now, when we have those segments with a presenter in front of the picture describing the picture, then the captioning equivalent is already present. And to provide a direct captioning would be not only redundant, but would, because of the fast pace and the breadth and depth of the information on the picture, would stagger, ultimately, what you see and what's being talked about.
  382. So we really think that ultimately we are working towards very effectively meeting the needs of that community, and that's what we are anxious to accomplish.
  383. MR. L. PERREAULT: As Pierre said, we are listening very carefully to the community. You might have noted that in the RQST intervention by Mr. McNicholl, we are a member of the Ad Hoc Committee put forth together by the RQST on closed captioning. We are at every meeting they have, and we're listening very carefully to the RQST, and they have focus groups with hearing-impaired people. We get their feedback, and their most urgent need for us was to caption the vignettes, which is done. I mean, the vignettes both on MétéoMédia and The Weather Network now are captioned and available to hearing-impaired citizens.
  384. In the fall, Basia told the Commission that we will be captioning news, and that was their second most important point. And we are going to keep working with them and delivering the product they need specifically for their community and keep researching their needs with them.
  385. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. I think we have covered most of the ground we needed or, in fact, maybe all the ground we needed to cover in that area.
  386. The next issue is cultural diversity. Will Pelmorex take part in a Cultural Diversity Task Force is the issue we want to flesh out here.
  387. At the CTV/Global hearings last month, both parties committed to participating in and financially supporting an industry Task Force on Cultural Diversity that will conduct research and define best practices for the industry with the participation of relevant community groups and experts.
  388. Once a task force has been established, would you be willing to participate in it?
  389. MR. P. MORRISSETTE: Well, firstly, we are a company that's extremely sensitive to reflecting the makeup of our society, the various demographic groups, and I think we have been very successful in that regard, whether it's on-the-air portrayal or just the makeup of our own workforce. We are just being made aware of this particular task force that is going forward, and without question, we would be very supportive of that kind of initiative and we would be keen to participate in it.
  391. The next issue is in the area of nature of service, and what we are trying to determine, is the addition of Category 11 appropriate, Category 11 being general entertainment and human interest.
  392. We note that you are proposing to include Category 11, general entertainment and human interest, in your nature of service conditional licence. Could you please comment on how this program category fits within a channel devoted to weather? The Perfect Storm, I guess, would come to mind.
  393. MS B. UJEJSKA: It would be great if we could have that.
  394. Well, first of all, Category 11 pertains to, again, general entertainment and human interest. Part of the definition of Category 11, if I may read it, is: "Reality TV, including programs of live or live to tape footage without significant portions devoted to in-depth analysis or interpretation and coverage of community events such as carnivals and festivals, parades and fashion shows." We feel there is a strong weather element in many -- in this definition. We readily participate and broadcast weather-related programming such as Winterlude or Calgary Stampede, for example, which would be termed as a weather event, if weather were a factor in the Calgary Stampede, for example, if it is rained out or if it is attrociously hot.
  395. Reality TV, I kind of smiled when I saw this, because I think we are reality TV. We are live all the time. We are updating constantly. We are doing live feeds from various parts of the country, from particular weather events, and we feel that this category does apply to us.
  396. When we filled out our application this year, we basically looked at what we broadcast and applied the appropriate categories to it.
  397. MR. P. TEMPLE: Just as an additional comment, we would still clearly have to, notwithstanding this category, we are still bound by the nature or definition of the service. As Basia says, to the extent we program under this category, it's related to weather and our nature of service definition.
  398. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Ms Ujejska, how much of your schedule would be devoted to programming from Category 11?
  399. MS B. UJEJSKA: It can vary from season to season. For example, during the summer we may cover the Pacific National Exhibition, the Canadian National Exhibition, where we will do live or live to tape footage from those events. In the wintertime we are very involved with the National Capital Commission with the Winterlude festivities, and we often broadcast live from there, as well as leading up to it, usually the big story is whether the Rideau will be frozen enough in order to skate on it. So I can't give a percentage. I could only guesstimate around 10 per cent a year at the most.
  400. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. Well, that concludes my series of questions for your panel. Thank you very much for your clear and informative answers.
  401. I now turn you back to the care of our Chair.
  402. THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Commissioner Williams.
  403. Before I find out if any of the other commissioners have questions, and I know that there are at least a couple, I think when you read in the definition of reality TV it's referring more to programs like "Good Pets Gone Bad" or "Survivor", that kind of reality TV.
  404. MS B. UJEJSKA: Fortunately we are all survivors on The Weather Network.
  405. THE CHAIRPERSON: I'm not sure we had in mind your specific channel when we included reality TV in that category.
  406. Commission Cardozo, I believe, has a question or two for you.
  407. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thanks, Madame Chair.
  408. Just a couple of quick questions, and so quick answers are fine too.
  409. First I will just start with one of the last points that Commissioner Williams had mentioned, which is cultural diversity, and I noticed in your response to the deficiency question that you had talked about your record there, as Mr. Morrissette has today. And I found it quite interesting because your content isn't particularly relevant to cultural diversity, but your personnel has been, and I just want to say that you have noted in your deficiency, and I have certainly observed it over the last few years, that your on-air personnel does reflect quite a diversity, the presence of several skilled anchorpersons who are visible minorities, and I just want to compliment you for that, and also ask if you have got any advice to broadcasters as to how you do it? I mean, why have some been so reluctant to reflect diversity, while you seem to do it quite naturally, I think?
  410. MR. P. MORRISSETTE: Well, I appreciate hearing those observations because we worked really hard at it, and we are really proud of the team that we have put together coast to coast and in both languages. And it's not just diversity in Mississauga, but also in our Montreal broadcast centre as well, which is operating predominantly in French. We worked hard at it.
  411. I will ask Valerie Morrissette to give you some insight into what we've done and what we plan to do in future.
  412. MS V. MORRISSETTE: I just wanted to say that we have taken employment equity very seriously and we have focused on which measures to attract qualified candidates in the designated groups, and we have monitored our progress. We have workforce analysis that we prepared, and whenever there is a vacancy, we review with the hiring manager if there is a gap. And we have been working towards exceeding, in fact, the external availability. That's our goal to do that for all the designated groups.
  413. We have been establishing relationships with, for example, aboriginal associations at universities and colleges, Special Needs Departments at universities and colleges. We have attended career fairs specifically for persons with disabilities and aboriginal people, and that's obviously our focus right now because we have achieved, or we have exceeded representation in two groups, and we want to do that with the other two groups as well.
  414. I think it's having a focus and being committed to it. That's our focus, and it's woven into the fabric of our entire organization.
  416. MS B. UJEJSKA: Sorry, I just wanted to add to that, to what Valerie said.
  417. We have taken a lot of outreach initiatives, and one of the things that we recently did which we think will further enhance this area is we've worked out negotiations with Aboriginal People's Television Network in order to do an exchange of information for not only more cultural diversity in our programming representation in on-air, but also to obtain more coverage, weather coverage, from the north, where we feel we are not our strongest, and also to get reportage from various areas that are not major centres in northern Canada.
  418. MR. P. MORRISSETTE: Just one last comment. In the annual report on employment equity, our services were cited for their very strong performance in this area amongst all the broadcasting services in Canada. There were a few others there, but obviously we were extremely proud to have our efforts in this area recognized. And I just wanted to share that because we are proud of it.
  419. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And so you should be.
  420. Let me ask you a couple of quick points about interactivity. In terms of you wanting an amendment to the nature of service, I'm wondering whether this is the appropriate time or whether a year or two down the road might be more appropriate, when you have a better idea about what that interactivity is going to be? I just observed -- you said through the discussion that it is a new area. I notice in today's Toronto Star there is an article about one of the major cable companies changing their technology. There is going to be a lot of this kind of testing and changing in the next while. So is this the appropriate -- are you doing it now because you are here for the licence renewal, or would it be better to do it down the road?
  421. MR. P. MORRISSETTE: I will kick that off. Interactivity, as I indicated earlier, has been in the test mode for the past several years, but it is now in the early phases of the launch mode. We view the timing to be appropriate right now because our service, first of all, lends itself, almost more than any other service, to ITV and we want to be on the ground floor and leading the way in this area. And we don't want necessarily to be penalized and also deprive our viewers of this new opportunity, although there is no question the launch mode will be a first-generation interactive activity.
  422. So we view this as a real product emerging in the marketplace today, and because, as I indicated earlier, in a digital world it's our future.
  423. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: You have talked about this with Commissioner Williams.
  424. Can you just tell me again why it is you need us to do the amendment or the change in the nature of service? If we didn't do that, how would it hold back your progress? Would it be that you would have less of an ability to convince cable to carry the interactive part?
  425. MR. P. MORRISSETTE: Well, firstly, we view ITV down the road as a fundamental component of our overall programming. It's not we have two television services, and quite separate and parallel to that, we have an ITV enhanced programming capability. We see the two as totally intertwined.
  426. If somebody is watching The Weather Network or MétéoMédia and sees the interactive button, and using the remote, goes to the information that they want through our channel, I mean, that's as part of our programming elements as can be.
  427. The other issue is that we -- because it's a critical component and it's essential for our future -- it may not be as critical for other broadcasters, but for us it's really critical, and to go on a very uncertain hit-and-miss approach where some, we might be successful, in others we may not, and meanwhile products in a walled garden are being developed and so on, yet something that -- you see, when we program going forward, all the interactive elements will be in sync with what we are doing on the air and what have you, and the two will be married. So to create a clearly defined set of rules for one part of our programming, yet this whole localisation element which, as I said before, that's our bread and butter, and to have a hit and miss and uncertain aspect to that really creates a huge uncertainty and challenge for us.
  428. So that's why we are requesting it.
  429. MR. P. TEMPLE: We were an application or an applicant in the last digital licensing. We made this same proposal. As part of our proposal, we suggested that interactivity should be part of a condition of licence to ensure the safeguards that we raised earlier.
  430. So the timing is appropriate, to go to your question of: "Are you just doing it now?" We have been saying this for some time. This just gives us another opportunity to come and talk to you about it. So it's not new. In terms of the timing, I would suggest that timing is of the essence.
  431. If the rules are not clear and straightforward, people are moving ahead. Precedents will be set. Services will be launched. And then when it comes time to sort out the rules, the Commission's ability to implement good policy could very well be compromised. If a BDU tomorrow launched interactive services, even in an elementary form, and there is a proceeding two years or a year from now, will it be -- will the Commission be hamstrung in being able to say, "No, that's not what we intended. Take that off."
  432. I go back to access on internet on cable. There is a proceeding to give access, but I'm not too sure there are too many large cable operators who are providing access.
  433. Now, is the Commission going to say, "Well, you can't do high-speed service at all."? But if we just kind of drift into it, these precedents will be set, and the concern is so great we even went so far in one of our responses to interventions to suggest that if the Commission feels that more information is needed or there has to be a broader proceeding, then there should be a moratorium, because otherwise we will just kind of drift into it be default, and whoever is out there first sets the policy.
  435. Lastly, in terms of the content that would be in the interactive component, Mr. Emerson mentioned a few examples, and from my visiting your site, it's the kind of stuff that is currently on your website that would be available in the interactive component?
  436. MR. P. MORRISSETTE: It would be ---
  437. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: It would be more than that?
  438. MR. P. MORRISSETTE: It would be within the definition of conditions relating to the description of our service. It would be substantially the same as what we have in our television networks, the difference being that on the television network, you are scheduled. You take away 12 minutes of advertising that we are allowed per hour, so it's 48 minutes of content per hour that constantly has to be repeated because of the nature of our service, whereas on the interactive, all of a sudden you eliminate those boundaries and you create a more virtual capability of content. If people want to know what the weather conditions and travel conditions might be to some city in Europe, they can go to that information right now and not have to wait 20 minutes.
  439. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Which they can do now directly on your website?
  440. MR. P. MORRISSETTE: They can do it on the website.
  441. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And this will now be available on your television service?
  442. MR. P. MORRISSETTE: That's right.
  443. And in fact, quite interestingly, our website virtually parallels, again -- the content there parallels the content on the television network and our conditions of licensing because we stick to our netting.
  444. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thanks very much. Thank you.
  445. Thanks, Madame Chair.
  446. THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Cram?
  447. COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you.
  448. I guess I'm having a few problems again with the same issue on the interactivity.
  449. You want a condition of licence that authorises you or requires you to have the interactive component?
  450. MR. P. TEMPLE: That would authorise us to have an interactive component, and the as such, when the capabilities of the BDU are such that they can pass that on, they would pass that element on.
  451. COMMISSIONER CRAM: And do you believe that such a COL that simply authorises you to carry interactive programming in some way requires the BDU to give you that capacity to carry the interactive programming?
  452. MR. P. TEMPLE: It requires the BDU to distribute it if they have the capability.
  453. COMMISSIONER CRAM: You believe a COL giving you permission to do interactive programming in some way requires a BDU to provide you with the capacity for whatever interactive programming you will have?
  454. MR. P. TEMPLE: No, no.
  455. COMMISSIONER CRAM: No? Because I am missing this.
  456. MR. P. TEMPLE: Okay. What it is requiring is if the BDU -- it would be -- right now there are priority rules, but if you don't have a channel, you don't have to carry a service. So if the BDU said, "I don't have the capability to do that.", we would say, "Okay. But when you do, let us know.", and we would expect our service to be distributed then. But if there is no capacity, if there's no capability, just like for an analogue channel, we would have to wail until that capability is there. But because it's part of our licensed service, we are not going to get into a debate with the BDU about, "Well, I don't really like that kind of stuff. I've got my own little weather service I decided to put on. I want to do something else instead." We would say, "Hey, it's part of our licensed service. You have the capability." It would be no different than if someone decided, "Well, I'll just carry it for 20 hours a day." Well, no, the service is licensed and you carry the whole thing if you have the capability. To us, the same principles apply to a digital world. Then the uncertainty -- there no kind of, "Well, I want so much for this or I want a split of that.", because it's part of the licensed service. We don't share advertising revenue with them now. We don't give them a cut of whoever we do -- we don't lease bandwidth. We are a licensed service. We have obligations under the Act, and as part of the interactivity being licensed, that would fall -- have the same obligations.
  457. So to us, that eliminates a lot of the contentious -- in fact, the only big issue left are the technology ones, and they will get sorted out. And if we have to wait, that's fine.
  458. COMMISSIONER CRAM: So your position then would be that we could do this on a case-by-case basis? We could authorise anybody else on a case-by-case basis to carry interactive programming, and that would be all that would be necessary on a going-forward basis?
  459. MR. P. TEMPLE: On ---
  460. COMMISSIONER CRAM: Because you are worried about priority. You talked about the priority, the capacity and that sort of thing.
  461. MR. P. TEMPLE: Yes, because there are clear rules in terms of priority for the distribution of licensed services over unlicensed services, or licence-exempt services. So that would eliminate a lot of the uncertainty. If I went to a BDU and they said, "Well, I don't want to carry you.", and they are carrying all sorts of unlicensed interactive services, then the rules are already there. We have priority distribution. So that's kind of a no-brainer.
  462. MR. P. MORRISSETTE: If I can just jump in in terms of your question with regards to a case-by-case basis. I think that could be appropriate, because if you just take the situation of The Weather Network and MétéoMédia, we are very unique in several ways, and particularly the importance and dependence of localisation as the essence of our service. And ITV is our means of providing localisation. This really doesn't apply to any other service that I know of in Canada, and it's also the fact that it's an information service in a category that lends itself particularly well to the benefits of ITV.
  463. So this, we think, again, when you relate the fact that we are a service that has been of great interest to the public, but also, we are in the public interest in many different ways: through the health and safety and those elements that we provide. And just our very uniqueness, I think, supports our particular request and probably justifies looking at every situation on a case-by-case basis.
  464. COMMISSIONER CRAM: Sorry, I have to get the numbers.
  465. Mr. Temple, can I get you to your advertising revenues - actual and projections? I think it's -- well, in my deck, as they say, it's the second one.
  466. MR. P. TEMPLE: Sorry, is that the one you mean?
  468. So if I look at that over the period of a licence term, and I just rounding off, it looks to me at the end of the proposed licence term 2008, you will have $11 million in advertising revenues, and it was about $7.9 at 2001.
  469. Mr. Morrissette is nodding yes.
  470. MR. P. TEMPLE: Then yes.
  471. COMMISSIONER CRAM: Precisely, if Mr. Morrissette is doing that.
  472. And if I look at this also -- and I recognize that I am projecting -- it looks to me about a quarter of a million you have projected for east-west revenues.
  473. MS A. CHARLETON: Yes.
  474. COMMISSIONER CRAM: So I then do my -- as I am prone to do -- $11 minus $7.9 to get the difference between 2001 and 2008, minus .25, and I end up with an increased advertising revenue of $2.85 million over the licence term. Subject to check, do you agree?
  475. MR. P. TEMPLE: Yes.
  476. COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thirty-seven (37) per cent increase in advertising revenue. Subject to check, you agree?
  477. MR. P. TEMPLE: Yes.
  478. COMMISSIONER CRAM: And at 2 cents, you are asking for a nine per cent increase in revenue?
  479. MR. P. TEMPLE: That's correct.
  480. COMMISSIONER CRAM: Over the seven years, therefore, you are asking for a 48 per cent increase in revenue, or you will be getting -- you believe you will be getting a 48 per cent increase in revenue?
  481. MR. P. TEMPLE: Yes, we have filed what we believe to be realistic revenue projections. There is an element of risk. We may not get the advertising, but we felt that -- you know, we could play games and just file a business plan that showed no growth, and then come here and say, "Give us a rate increase." That's not realistic.
  482. However, on the cost side, there are real costs. Right off the bat, 37 per cent of all that revenue gets ploughed right back into programming. We are operating two services ---
  483. COMMISSIONER CRAM: I hear you, yes.
  484. MR. P. TEMPLE: So there are costs with that, and our return is low. And so that revenue goes to predominantly programming. Some of it, we will reinvest in the form of the east-west. So if you look at our percentage and say, "Oh, that's a big percentage." ---
  485. COMMISSIONER CRAM: No, actually, I took out the east-west, if you noticed that.
  486. MR. P. TEMPLE: Okay.
  487. COMMISSIONER CRAM: And that's what -- when I did that, when I came up with the 37 per cent increase in revenues, I took out the east-west revenues for that very reason, that without any rate increase, you are projecting a 37 per cent increase in revenues.
  488. MR. P. TEMPLE: M'hm.
  489. COMMISSIONER CRAM: Over the seven years, of course, not in the first year.
  490. MR. P. TEMPLE: Yes.
  491. COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you very much.
  492. THE CHAIRPERSON: I have a couple of questions of my own. I will try and be quick about this.
  493. I want to ask about two things: first about the interactivity -- I want to go back to some of this -- and about the accessibility issue.
  494. With respect to the interactivity, when you say you are asking for authorization, what you are asking for really is acknowledgement that the interactive component is an integral part of the programming signal?
  495. MR. P. MORRISSETTE: That's correct.
  496. THE CHAIRPERSON: And so that it can, under the Act, therefore not be modified or deleted or substituted. It would be covered by all of those. It wouldn't be a requirement to carry it, but it would be protected by those sections of the Act ---
  497. MR. P. MORRISSETTE: That's correct.
  498. THE CHAIRPERSON: --- pertaining to programming signals?
  499. MR. P. MORRISSETTE: Correct.
  500. THE CHAIRPERSON: As I recall during the digital specialty hearing, one of the big issues with respect to the interactive component was the bandwidth requirement, and there were a lot of different kinds of interactive applications being talked about, mostly in very vague terms. Most people acknowledged that they didn't really know exactly what kinds of interactive elements would become part of the program signals, that it was in the very early stages. So the whole issue of how much bandwidth constitutes a normal program signal was one of the issues that we discussed, like how much do you get for free, and if you needed more than that as part of your signal, how much would you pay the BDU for that, because, of course, they are building the infrastructure that carries it.
  501. Now, in the analogue world this was easy because every channel took up a given piece of the spectrum. In the digital world it's based more on what kind of bit rate you need to create your image, your TV image.
  502. So that's one of the issues that I struggle with when I'm sort of saying, "Okay. You are asking me for authorization. You are saying I can do this on a case-by-case basis." And Mr. Temple throws in the comment about "Only the technological issues will remain", which I'm not sure I really understand. I would probably want more explanation on that.
  503. But it seems to me that the issues that are really being talked about are commercial issues. They come down to money: cost of bandwidth; how much should be yours as part of the program signal; should you pay if you need more than that; what about the return path?
  504. So I'm wondering if you can -- because it's kind of the thin edge of the wedge. We can say, "Yes on a case-by-case basis I'm going to authorise you, that this is part of your signal and the localisation argument is a good one for your service." And I'm sure that there are lots of other regulatory people out there who could come up with equally compelling reasons for other types of services.
  505. I mean, to me it's the commercial issues that are at stake here when you are asking for authorization. I take your point about the policy developing incrementally, just because it's out there, and then the Commission having to revisit it, but maybe you could just speak to that.
  506. MR. P. MORRISSETTE: Well, yes, there are commercial issues involved, but I think the predominant issue here is because it's an integral part of our programming services that it becomes an access issue subject to the availability of the technological capability of the BDU in question.
  507. On the matter of bandwidth, as we indicated earlier, the nature of this particular service, bandwidth consumption is not an issue. That may apply -- and I go back to the digital hearings -- apply more to ---
  508. THE CHAIRPERSON: Sports channels and ---
  509. MR. P. MORRISSETTE: --- where there is live video or video programming substantially from sports or drama, entertainment-type of genres. But in the case of a service like ours, for which this content element is essential, fundamental, it so happens that what goes in parallel with that is that we don't have bandwidth issues. We are a very low consumer of bandwidth.
  510. THE CHAIRPERSON: You don't. That may be true. So do we put a limit on you? And as a matter of principle, in terms of the precedent that might be set by giving you this authorization, do we put limits on everybody else as well, and how do we establish that limit?
  511. MR. P. MORRISSETTE: I will ask Paul to jump in, and I might come back.
  512. MR. P. TEMPLE: In the analogue world there was a bandwidth constraint. There was a bandwidth problem in the analogue world, and the Commission decided that the way to deal with that was that the Commission would establish the priority, not the operator, not the BDU.
  513. We now face the same problem potentially in a digital world. Who is going to set the priority in the digital world for bandwidth? Whether you agree with us or not, the bandwidth issue will remain. If there is a limitation on bandwidth, there will be a limitation in a regulated world or in a non-regulated environment. Our proposal will not solve the bandwidth problem. Our proposal will establish the rules of access to that bandwidth because it is scarce. If it isn't scarce, there probably isn't a reason. But just as in the analogue world when bandwidth was scarce, the Commission set up rules to ensure that the objectives of the Broadcasting Act were met. We now face that same potential dilemma in the digital world.
  514. Who is going to set the rules to ensure the objectives of the Broadcasting Act are met? Our suggestion is that is the role for the Commission, because bandwidth might be scarce.
  515. As to who pays, our model, and I think it's consistent with the CCTA approach, is the consumer pays. They talk about choice in a digital hearing. You know, in a package, to get what you want you have to pay. This is the same environment. Licensed services don't pay for bandwidth. They have other obligations, and we are proposing that the same environment, the same policies, apply to the digital world. If a consumer wants to use lots of bandwidth -- because it's not really the programming service, it's the consumer who is going to be using the bandwidth. They are going to be ordering the pay-per-view -- the video-on-demand movie. They are going to be downloading the ski report for Canmore. They're going to be doing all this, and they should pay, but not the licensed programming service because that will just -- it would be as if we had to negotiate bandwidth now in an analogue world.
  516. So to eliminate this, to take the principles that have worked in the analogue world, and now just apply them to the digital world, to us, makes a whole bunch of sense. But whether you agree or not, the bandwidth problem isn't solved. It's who decides how the bandwidth is used.
  517. THE CHAIRPERSON: We always like it when people tell us that it's up to us to decide, completely up to us.
  518. MR. P. TEMPLE: I would argue it might be up to the Broadcasting Act, and that's what we're trying to accomplish, the objectives of the Broadcasting Act, and I think this environment we are proposing can meet those objectives.
  519. THE CHAIRPERSON: If I can just ask you quickly on accessibility, because we've got a fairly ambitious schedule before lunch. And Mr. Temple, this is probably your area too.
  520. You talked about the SAP service that you are proposing and flipping back and forth. I mean, it's challenging enough for most people to set the clocks on their VCRs still, after all these years, let alone deal with the SAP issue. Is it reasonable to expect that a person who is blind or vision impaired can flip back and forth between SAP and your main audio program in order to receive an integrated whole, or is there some way -- you know, I took a look at your schedule. First of all, regardless of what the discussion might be about what's accessible and what's not accessible, and to the argument that you have made about the PMX and how that works with local content, there are three segments that are not ads, not local, and don't fall into what you have defined as already accessible. Those are the travellers' segments and the international forecasts. Travellers is one minute -- it's three and a half minutes of each hour. I mean, how hard would it be to make those accessible and, conversely, during the local portions of your schedule -- and I am sure you have looked at this, I am just throwing it out there. But is it not possible to, on your SAP service, slot into those local breaks information that would be of value to subscribers who are unable to access it by watching?
  521. MR. P. TEMPLE: It's possible to slot in, I guess, some kind of audio during those breaks.
  522. THE CHAIRPERSON: I'm not talking about on your main feed.
  523. MR. P. TEMPLE: Right. No, on the SAP.
  524. THE CHAIRPERSON: So you would duplicate to the main feed on your SAP and plug into those holes ---
  525. MR. P. TEMPLE: Exactly.
  526. THE CHAIRPERSON: --- the information like the regional report. You could do the travellers stuff, the international forecast.
  527. MR. P. TEMPLE: And then we haven't costed that. The real issue is would it be valuable, because what we are trying to accomplish with the general -- the regional report is to give more of the information that the visually impaired and the blind are not getting, trying to. But if it was only for very short elements, we get back into this multiplicity of audio.
  528. I think our best course now is to just go with it. I think we are anxious to just try it and work on it. I don't think this is -- we are not here saying, "We're going to do five regional.", and seven years from now it will be exactly the same. It might be, if that's meeting the need, but if we can figure out better ways and more clever ways and talk to the blind and visually-impaired community to figure out things we can practically do, absolutely. So if that is something that they think is, "Oh, that would be great.", we will try it, but if the trade-off
  529. THE CHAIRPERSON: So will the SAP service have any element of your main audio feed on it, or will it be completely separate?
  530. MR. P. TEMPLE: Right now our thinking is completely separate, but as I said, if we get feedback -- it's just that those segments are so small that putting something in that's meaningful, it's not going to be very meaningful.
  531. THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, you don't think you can -- I know some people who can say an awful lot in a minute and a half. There's that guy who won the world record for speaking really fast. You could hire him.
  532. Okay. That's it for me.
  533. Legal counsel?
  534. ME L. BENNETT: Because of the time we are not going to ask our questions now, but we expect to have some questions at the reply stage.
  535. THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. So we are going to move to interventions now.
  536. Thank you very much for the time that you spent with us and for the information that you provided, and we will see you again at the reply.
  537. MS L. POIRIER: I would like to invite Mr. Chris Stark to come and present his intervention.
  538. THE CHAIRPERSON: Hi, Mr. Stark. My name is Martha Wilson, and I am the Ontario Regional Commissioner. I am chairing this week's hearing. And before you begin, I would like to introduce you to the other Panel Members. Going from your left to right we have Commission Andrew Cardozo. He is one of our national commissioners. We have our Vice-Chair of Broadcasting, Andrée Wylie, who is on my right, coming from your left; then we have Barbara Cram, who is the Regional Commissioner for Saskatchewan and Manitoba, and Commission Ron Williams, who is the Regional Commissioner for the Northwest Territories and Alberta.
  539. So you may begin any time you are ready. Thanks for being with us.


  540. MR. C. STARK: Thank you for that courtesy, and good morning.
  541. I understand I have 10 minutes to speak. If I could impose on you perhaps to give me a warning at eight minutes so that I don't encourage longevity in my remarks?
  542. THE CHAIRPERSON: We would be happy to.
  543. MR. C. STARK: I appreciate you varying your regime and routine to accommodate me. I came in early this morning to carve out some time during the day to come here and will have to work a little bit late in the day because I have to make the money to pay for the weather service, as a subscriber.
  544. And that's what it's really all about in the end is the issue of consumer service. I want to compliment the CRTC again, as I have in the past, in taking an interest and looking into matters of concern to a marginalized group of Canadians, whether they be deaf Canadians or blind people, or some of the other things you have done, and the little courtesies like your webmaster telling me where something is on your website so that I can read it myself is the kind of things that allow us to participate. And I think this is part of what I'm here about today.
  545. I want you to reflect back on how this issue started. It actually started years ago with a letter from the Sir Arthur Pearson Association of War-Blinded Canadians, you know those people that gave their sight for this country who were complaining that they could no longer read weather forecast numbers and stock numbers and all of that, and that was an indication that society's information provision was changing perhaps from the radio to the television.
  546. I, a year and a half ago approximately, made a complaint with my wife following the Groundhog Day in Ottawa when we experienced real difficulty getting meaningful weather during the aftermath of that, particularly when many of the live broadcasts ended. And if you think of the initial response of the people providing The Weather Network was, "Well, there are other services out there." Well, we had said in our intervention they were having trouble using those other services, or as -- you know, we could buy another radio and learn how to operate something else without tactile dial labels and all of that.
  547. And I think it goes to your question this morning of whether or not we can flick back and forth between the SAP and the regular quite easily.
  548. I was in Toronto this weekend and was trying to figure out whether there was SAP on the hotel television set. I had difficulty even finding The Weather Network.
  549. And so my point is that blind people in Canada is a society of diversity. This isn't the world of the blind where we have a special weather forecast for the blind. It may be of use, and I certainly have no problem with it. I don't know, maybe it would tell me not only whether or not I'm going to hear well today based on the level of snow, but whether or not the pavement is too hot for my dog's paws and whether or not there's going to be more salt today on the sidewalk to burn his paws and otherwise, but this is not a world of the blind. It's a world of predominantly sighted people, and we are trying to integrate into the world of the sighted.
  550. And when I think of the specialty services, I think of having to go through a school for the blind because people thought that the blind people couldn't learn with sighted people. That's one of the things that worries me about this approach of separate services, and to me, this is not what the original complaint was about and which was deferred to the licence hearing, nor is it to my wife. The issue is this is a new service, a weather forecast for the blind. Well, that's not The Weather Network; that's a new service.
  551. What we are seeking is opportunities to access the regular service. It's not just people who are blind; it's cognitively disabled Canadians who may have trouble with reading the scripts. It may be people who have learning disabilities. It may be people whose languages -- first languages are neither English or French, and it may be seniors who will be, by the year 2020, approximately 1 in 5 Canadians will be seniors, and most seniors have hearing and visual disabilities, and the last thing that they want to hear is that they are disabled. They want to be able to use services seamlessly.
  552. So I have concerns along those lines, but I don't really oppose the specialty service for the blind. What I do oppose is the lack of access to the regular weather services. And I, like anybody else, want to know what the weather conditions are and also the road conditions. No, I am not going to drive down the road tomorrow, but I may be taking a bus ride, or I may be asking my daughter to drive me down to Montreal, or I may have to take a taxi tomorrow, and I'm going to want to know what the road conditions are. So I have the same information needs as sighted people, and I have the same need for local information.
  553. I was interested to listen to the presentation this morning, and I was trying to figure out how they were answering the questions, because some of the answers didn't quite seem to be complete, and then later on, somebody said, "Oh, this slide, there's a little bit of writing. It's pretty small." And I got thinking, "Well, that's why, because the oral is just supplementing the visual."
  554. And I was going to say now you have a divergence of opinion here between, say, some blind people like myself who say that very little of The Weather Network's programming is really accessible, and we haven't talked about descriptive narration yet, which I think is something that we would benefit from in the vignettes and all of the other things that we are talking about.
  555. And then an hour or so later we got talking about the hearing impaired, and The Weather Network made my case for me, and that is they said that oral presentation is simply supplementing the visual, and the visual tells the story. And I've been sitting here this morning, and I'm realizing just how disadvantaged I am because blindness is an information deprivation. And if you can see all of those things in a minute and go on, and it's going to take me half an hour to absorb the same information, I'm feeling a little more disabled than I did when I came to the hearing this morning.
  556. There has to be solutions to those kinds of issues, and I would suggest, and this may surprise you, but I think I'm kind of in favour of the interactive television with, of course, the proviso that it is totally accessible from the get-go, because then you take my needs out of slowing down sighted people's access to information, and you take my needs and you allow me to pick, "Well, I want the weather forecast for Labrador City today because that's where I've got to go." So I download it, and I listen to it at my speed.
  557. But as I think you are all aware, the digital world is not accessible, and I'm discovering that, to my horror, as I try to build a new house and find that all these set-top boxes are totally inaccessible to blind people. You know, they're not a medieval castle that was built in the 13th Century before wheelchairs were thought of. Therefore, you can't put a ramp in it because it's a historical site, blah, blah, blah. These are modern, 21st Century technologies.
  558. The Weather Network people talk about the local forecast. Well, if you were to -- you know, I'm naïve if I think even despite the Charter of Rights and Freedoms in Section 15, which governs the actions of the Commission, the equality clause, even if I'm naïve enough to think that you might not grant their licence, I don't think that will happen.
  559. But what I do think you might consider doing is banning the playing of music by itself on The Weather Network. They will find a way to fill that dead air informatively. I don't want to oppose the weather service for the blind because some blind people may benefit from it, but why I came today, and why my wife would have liked to have been here with me is that both the English and French services, we want the same access as everyone else. And if you think their services are accessible and you are not going to take my view of it, put a towel or a blanket over your television screen and listen there for 20 minutes. I have made a tape of it yesterday -- just made a tape of it, and I will leave that with you.
  560. MS L. POIRIER: Mr. Stark?
  561. MR. C. STARK: Yes.
  562. MS L. POIRIER: I just wanted to tell you you have one minute left.
  563. MR. C. STARK: You don't mean I was that interesting -- I'm sorry, I will conclude very quickly by saying that what I hope the Commission will do is move the yardstick forward for people who are blind on an inclusion lens, similar to that one being recommended by Industry Canada, that as new services and new opportunities present themselves, we will be included. This service is only less than 10 years old, and it was established inaccessible, and that saddens me as a Canadian. I simply ask you to do what you can for people who are blind to encourage our integration into Canadian society and into the regular services. Nobody has talked about the fact that we have had to pay for The Weather Network for x number of years in part of our cable service, and it's demonstratively not usable by us.
  564. And I want to say too that I dispute the idea that the existing programming is accessible to us, as claimed by The Weather Network.
  565. And finally, I commend all concerned for consulting with a wider level of blind people, but I would say that they have consulted with perhaps one per cent of who they need to consult with to have a clear idea of how to meet that customer service need. And I would encourage that to continue. I would encourage The Weather Network to set up an advisory committee of people who are disabled to talk, and I would also -- I think the one area that I do agree with The Weather Network's intervention, which is that the Commission itself may want to set up a more broader, wide advisory committee, but I think that if we could use the interactive television application to say, "Look, no new applications unless they're accessible." If they want to have interactive television, I bet you it will be accessible in three months.
  566. Thank you for listening.
  567. THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Stark.
  568. I am going to be asking you just a few questions with respect to both your written and your oral submissions.
  569. When you say that most of -- and I believe in your written intervention you said about 90 per cent of what The Weather Network does is inaccessible, and they say that over 50 per cent of it is accessible. How do you -- where is your point of departure on that issue? How do you measure that? I am glad you brought the tape. I, for one, will surely listen to it. But if you could just describe for me how you measure accessibility versus how they do?
  570. MR. C. STARK: Well, I think, from my perspective, is whether I'm getting enough out of it to understand what's going on. If they say, "There's a low across this part of the country.", and I don't know what that means -- if they say, "There's a low from the Alberta/U.S. border stretching up to around Edmonton", I understand that. And I think they could use some descriptive narration in the same time span they are now using to make what they are saying more legible. To take another example, my wife often complains about hockey coverage, which she is a fan of the Senators, because they get talking about everything and leave the cameras to tell the story. So we often find that when the radio is on, we put the radio on rather than the television because the description is better. And I think they have to go back to the old radio techniques and realize that the audio is just not an add-on. It is a medium of communication. It should be audio and visual, and they should be not only complementary, but both should stand alone: visual for those who can use it; audio for those who can use it.
  571. And to conclude, I once had a professor of math who used to say "This plus this equals that", because he had a blackboard, and I had real trouble in that math course, and I could never solve that. And I wish I could have taken his blackboard away, because it would have worked then.
  572. THE CHAIRPERSON: I guess you missed the days of Foster Hewitt?
  573. MR. C. STARK: Eh?
  574. THE CHAIRPERSON: I guess you missed the days of Foster Hewitt, or your wife misses Foster Hewitt.
  575. MR. C. STARK: Yes, and Danny Gallahan.
  576. THE CHAIRPERSON: He was pretty good at describing hockey.
  577. MR. C. STARK: Yes, yes.
  578. THE CHAIRPERSON: So you think an increased level of descriptive narration during the weather reports themselves, the live weather reports, would assist?
  579. MR. C. STARK: It would be of great value. I mean, even on the North American -- you know, the weather on the West Coast is generally sunny with a low in San Diego of x, and a high for the West Coast of, say, 29 in L.A. You know, you can't do it all in a minute and a half, but you can summarize. I mean, when I get access to it, BBC World has a whole world weather forecast in two minutes, and I understand it all. They don't tell me every temperature, but they give you the highs and the lows, and they help you focus.
  580. You see, what you do with your eyes when you look on the screen is you kind of focus to the significant thing. What is the highest temperature or what's the lowest, or where the danger is. Well, good audio will help me focus by that descriptive narration. I doubt if even all sighted people read every temperature on the North American temperature grid. They read the ones they're interested in. Granny's in Phoenix for the winter. Well, that's the one they read. And I know you can't give them all, but you can vary it over the hours and you can improve the narration without distracting the viewing pleasure of sighted people.
  581. THE CHAIRPERSON: So if they were able to increase the level of descriptive narration on the service, would that go part-way?
  582. MR. C. STARK: That would be very helpful.
  583. THE CHAIRPERSON: I guess if you were here for the discussion, the presentation this morning on the technical capabilities of the PMX system in terms of feeding the 1,200 individual headends with the local information, that does -- it seems to be quite a daunting challenge to try and provide audio for all 1,200 -- I guess the total number was 300,000 reports each day that they are doing each day on a local basis, generated out of the computer in a text and graphic nature. So that seems an almost impossible number to do in audio description.
  584. But if they were to make every other aspect of their hourly schedule more accessible through descriptive narration, would that go a long way towards satisfying the difficulties that you have?
  585. MR. C. STARK: I wouldn't be here today. It was my sense during the complaint proceedings that that was not -- they weren't offering anything.
  586. And I want to go back to the 1,200 headends and all of that again. I guess what saddens me is that that system was developed after the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, et cetera, et cetera, and I think at the design stage they could have figured out a solution. Now, retrofitting, and that's what I was referring to the 13th Century castle, you know, it was designed without blind people in mind and with a belief in business that this isn't a viable part of our audience.
  587. And why I had said that I thought I was in favour of the IT solution is it allows us to jump right out of that quagmire.
  589. MR. C. STARK: There's not much we can do about that now, but if the CRTC, in its wisdom and since you like that, it's up to you. The choice is yours. Since I think earlier this morning somebody said that you like it when it's like that, you have an opportunity in the digital world -- it's not too late yet -- to make a big difference for blind people, to jump us into a world where the set-top box will be as accessible for us through our ears as it is for sighted people through their eyes. And so anything will help. That's why I'm not opposed to the separate service for blind people, because in some circumstances it may help me, but I am opposed to it in lieu of access to the regular service. And what you are suggesting is something that I am very comfortable with and wished I had heard in the first reply to the original complaint, which was eventually deferred to here.
  590. So if you increase the level of audio narration in the regular program, if you make an effort, we appreciate the effort. It's that we have felt that in the past there was no effort.
  591. THE CHAIRPERSON: I think that you have raised a really good point. I think people who have sight, people who live in the sighted world, they sometimes just don't even think of these things, and that's why it's really important for you to be here and sort of point to the ways in which we don't take into consideration how you are excluded from so much of what goes on in the sighted world.
  592. MR. C. STARK: Thank you. I think it was very illuminating, and many people with disabilities followed the hearings on Global and CTV. We are, frankly, ourselves, amazed at how much money was being made out of closed captioning, and it's pleasing because you can make money out of us too. We're not out to bankrupt the industry. We spend money too.
  593. THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, I take your point on that one.
  594. I guess you must have been happy to hear about the commitments that were made in terms of descriptive audio?
  595. MR. C. STARK: Yes.
  596. THE CHAIRPERSON: That was a giant step forward.
  597. MR. C. STARK: Yes.
  598. THE CHAIRPERSON: I think there may be something to the idea that if you want to get something done and see a profit be made out of it, you have to give it to business people.
  599. MR. C. STARK: Yes. They have to manage the costs and manage the expenditures of disability. And I think the Commission's success with captioning only raises our appetite for the same success for descriptive narration.
  600. THE CHAIRPERSON: Now, Mr. Stark, I guess you have talked about an advisory committee for The Weather Network, and the National Federation of the Blind talked about some kind of a working committee, and then Pelmorex itself referred to the notion of an industry-wide task force and that they had sent something onto the CAB, the Canadian Association of Broadcasters.
  601. It seems to me, from the short time that I have been at the Commission, that you have a lot of ideas and a lot of experience to bring to the table, and I'm wondering if you have given any consideration to participating in that kind of a forum, talking to people and giving them the kind of feedback that you give when you come here to us?
  602. MR. C. STARK: I, you know, like most people, love people to listen to me, but beyond that frivolous answer, I, myself, and other people who are blind are more than willing to give of our time and of what knowledge we have to help people serve us in a cost-effective manner, because I am the first to realize that my cable bill will be affected by this.
  603. To further address your question, I think there are two different roles. One role is to help Pelmorex with their own particular service, providing an ongoing consultation. The other is a more formal one, similar to the Minister of Transport's Advisory Committee on Transportation or Industry Canada's Assistive Devices Committee for Industry Making Assistive Devices.
  604. I came in early this morning. I still have to work seven and a half hours, and I was hoping I could give something positive to this deliberation, if nothing more than to thank the CRTC for being interested in us.
  605. THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, we appreciate your participation, and I think that once we get past this hearing, that there are a number of broadcasters out there who could benefit from your knowledge and your experience in this area. So I am sure that they will want to be talking to you.
  606. And I guess that the question I was asking really has to do with the notion that if there were some encouraging language that some kind of industry-wide group could talk about issues for other broadcasters as well.
  607. Arthur, do you find that there are other specialty services for which this is as much of an issue as it is with The Weather Network?
  608. MR. C. STARK: I think so. One of the examples we use -- and as individuals, there is only so much you can do in a day, and you can't -- and the blind in this community is particularly disadvantaged because we have to -- it takes quite a bit to get through a day, whether it's caring for your dog in the morning or walking out and trying to figure out how to cross the street, not that it's any different for us than anybody else in terms of making the effort, but it does take time.
  609. And I will get to your question in a second, but it makes me think of another time at school when my career counsellor said, "You can do as much as everybody else, and you can do the job as well as anybody else, but you better expect that you're going to have to work harder at it to do the same thing." So we work harder at being a part of everybody's world because it's important to us.
  610. And in your question, CTV's News Network now carries the weather on the weekend from The Weather Network with the screens and just the music. Some of the other services -- I have noticed Newsworld has recently started saying what's coming up in the next half hour with music, and there's no reason why they can't just say, "In the next half hour we have a newscast and then something else." And the sports, particularly, my wife goes on and on about the sports, talking around the pictures rather than to what's going on, so whether that be The Sports Network or CTV Sports. Some of the more good channels are things like the History Channel, where the audio and the video, because they are doing that kind of programming, seems to be more suitable to simultaneous enjoyment visually in audio or together.
  611. So I think there are broader issues. I think it's far more preferable for industry to be proactive and allow me to work my seven and a half hour days rather than making 10-hour days out of it because I'm motivated, because as a consumer I feel left out and overcharged for the same thing that sighted people are getting, because all of the ones we deal with as individuals are issues that have impacted on our lives. It's something that has caused us difficulty in living in the world, and I am pleased to see the interest of other organizations like the National Federation of the Blind Advocates for Equality and the other organizations that you referred to and Pelmorex referred to. I mean, that's good because that means that these people are seeing the potential of television to be a positive influence in the lives of blind people, which may, on the surface, sound like a contradiction. Why can a screen help people who can't see.
  612. THE CHAIRPERSON: It's more an issue of social integration, I think, which is the understanding that has developed.
  613. MR. C. STARK: Yes, Ma'am.
  614. THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, Mr. Stark, thank you very much for taking this time out of your day. I wish you didn't have to go back and work seven and a half hours. We may be here seven and a half hours ourselves.
  615. MR. C. STARK: I can say that it's more comfortable watching you on CPAC than sitting here.
  616. THE CHAIRPERSON: The chairs are not the most comfortable.
  617. MR. C. STARK: Well, you know, you can sit at home and do your own thing and be comfortable.
  618. I appreciate you taking the time to listen to me, and I appreciate the effort that you have made to accommodate me in your schedule.
  619. THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, you certainly increased my understanding, and it was nice to see Richard again too. Thank you so much.
  620. MR. M. BURNSIDE: I would like to now call the Canadian Cable Television Association to present their intervention.
  621. THE CHAIRPERSON: Ms Yale, whenever you are ready. Thanks for waiting.


  622. MS J. YALE: Thank you for accommodating us today.
  623. Mesdames et messieurs, bonjour. Je m'appelle Janet Yale et je suis présidente et chef de la direction de l'Association canadienne de télévision par cable. Je suis accompagnée aujourd'hui de madame Suzanne Blackwell, Vice-présidente Recherche économique à l'ACTC.
  624. C'est au nom de nos membres que nous sommes ici aujourd'hui afin de présenter nos commentaires sur deux sujets spécifiques liés au renouvellement des licences, soit l'augmentation de tarifs, ainsi que les propositions à l'égard des services interactifs proposés par Pelmorex.
  625. Pelmorex has proposed to increase its wholesale rate by 2 cents to 25 cents per subscriber per month. Pelmorex has also proposed to provide digital subscribers of The Weather Network/MétéoMédia with interactive access to weather information.
  626. CCTA supports improvements to programming services that will benefit viewers. However, it is also important to provide value to basic service subscribers. CCTA believes that Pelmorex does not require the requested rate increase in order to pursue its proposals for new programming for The Weather Network/MétéoMédia services.
  627. CCTA would point to the very strong track record that The Weather Network/MétéoMédia has had in advertising revenues, achieving year-over-year growth of more than 40 per cent. This is in contrast to the 5 per cent annual growth that Pelmorex has forecast for the licence renewal period.
  628. By drawing on the broad distribution of The Weather Network/MétéoMédia to virtually all subscribers as well as stronger growth in advertising revenues, the proposed rate increases can be avoided.
  629. Pelmorex has also proposed to introduce interactive services to digital subscribers. CCTA members are enthusiastic about the opportunities ITV services present and look forward to exploring these with programming partners.
  630. We believe that the ITV market is nascent, with many technological and operational issues still to be resolved. In this environment, it is important that the industry be encouraged to find commercial, market-based solutions to the issues. This approach would be consistent with the principles of the Commission's New Media decision.
  631. In this regard, we are disappointed with Pelmorex in terms of its response of June 8th, where Pelmorex asked the Commission to mandate BDUs to provide interactive elements to their subscribers at no cost and without compensation. There are a number of reasons why we think this is an reasonable request.
  632. First, BDUs have made very substantial investments in digital upgrades and face many technical and operational challenges to launch ITV services and recover the associated costs.
  633. Second, it is unreasonable to expect a BDU to undertake significant investments to create an interactive platform and to then permit a broadcaster to use that platform at no cost.
  634. Third, it's not appropriate to establish broad precedents for interactive television in the context of a licence renewal process, when many parties with a substantial interest in the issues are not here before the Commission.
  635. And finally, the Commission suggested only last month that it was too early to develop specific rules for interactivity. In particular, the Commission said in Public Notice 2001-57 respecting Digital Principles, and I quote:

"As for interactive services, the Commission agrees with parties who submitted that it is too early to develop principles specific to this type of service. The Commission expects that there will be developments in this area in the short to medium term that will clarify the issues to be addressed. To this end, the Commission encourages both programmers and distributors to work together in such areas as the development of technical standards."

  1. CCTA's members are open to working with programmers to resolve the technical and commercial issues associated with the deployment of ITV services, but we shouldn't assume this will be an easy task. ITV is still at an experimental stage in Canada and the U.S. There are no common standards and no common applications and platforms.
  2. Ultimately, the roll-out of ITV will be driven by a number of factors, including the technical capacity of networks to support applications, the amount of resources required to support applications, commercial viability, and most important, actual consumer demand.
  3. That is not to say that programmers and distributors should stop exploring the opportunities for interactive applications.
  4. The Commission has rules in place to deal with undue preference and dispute resolution. In our view, these rules are sufficiently flexible to allow the Commission and the industry to address any issues as they arise. To impose a moratorium on ITV services, as Pelmorex suggests, would be a step backwards and not in the public interest. A moratorium would impact not just cable companies, but also content creators and broadcasters that are working to develop interactive applications.
  5. Finally, CCTA is concerned that approving the proposed licence amendment would establish a precedent that any programmer wishing to explore ITV opportunities with distributors would first have to obtain explicit prior approval.
  6. This approach would be burdensome for both the industry and the Commission, and could effectively delay the roll-out of innovative ITV services. Moreover, it would represent a departure from the Commission's digital licensing framework, which encouraged programmers to explore ITV initiatives without the need for explicit authorization of each and every proposal.
  7. We appreciate the opportunity to present our comments, and we would be pleased to answer any questions you may have.
  8. THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Cardozo?
  9. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you, Madame Chair.
  10. Thank you, Ms Yale, Ms Blackwell, for being here and for your presentation today and the written presentation which you sent in earlier.
  11. I have just got a few questions, first on the last topic you addressed, which is interactivity.
  12. What are your thoughts about whether we -- whether the Commission should be looking at this? Mr. Temple had talked about -- his view was that it is the Commission's role to set some rules in place. Do you think we should be -- I hear you are saying not through a licensing agreement, but do you think we should be holding a proceeding on this subject now or down the road, or is that best left to the industry to organize?
  13. MS J. YALE: A couple of comments. First, I think there are some rules in place in terms of Section 7 of the Regulations, which make it clear what kind of program-related material distributors are expected to pass through. So it's not say that there are no rules. And Section 7 makes clear that the material must be passed through if it's integral to the programming service being broadcast. And so there is a very explicit rule.
  14. What we are concerned about is that what Pelmorex is asking for is to, through a condition of licence amendment, change, in effect, or expand Section 7 of the Regulations, and that's what we're saying can't be done in the context of a licence renewal proceeding.
  15. So that's the particular issue that we have with what they are proposing. And it's clear to us that all kinds of interactive applications are being developed, whether through websites or whatever. So it's not to say there is not interactivity. What doesn't exist today is interactivity where, on a single television screen, you are simultaneously watching television and accessing interactive content. That's the piece that doesn't exist. You have interactivity through two screens today, the television screen and the internet. You have the ability, through some early experiments, to watch TV and then switch over to the internet, but then you don't see the TV screen anymore. You are watching -- you can surf the Net instead of watching television. So these things are developing.
  16. What we haven't figured out yet is the rules around simultaneously, on a single screen, watching television and accessing interactive content. And there are, as I say, quite a number of issues.
  17. What we have actually believed would be important before setting the rules of the game is to really understand the facts, both in terms of the costs associated with that last step that I was just describing, because there are costs other than just capacity costs that we haven't even begun to explore, and I'm not sure this is the time and place to give you the full list. Our intervention describes the full range of factors, and I think the discussion today has only dealt with a very small subset of the cost.
  18. So I think it would be useful for the Commission, in fact, not to have a rule-making proceeding as much as a fact-finding proceeding to try and really understand and have a clear picture of what we mean by interactivity and what it would actually -- what is actually involved in providing it before we start to have a discussion about what the rules should be.
  19. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So as it stands now, if they were not to get an amendment to their condition of licence and they wanted to get interactive, could they come and talk to a cable operator, and what would happen then?
  20. MS J. YALE: Well, certainly under Section 7 of the Regulations, programming -- the content that is integral and related to the programming being broadcast under Section 7 of the Regulations must be passed through. So there are already some things we are required to do.
  21. Secondly, what we are saying is that we would like to have those kinds of negotiations and discussions with programmers who have particular application they would like to introduce and work together to figure out how we would do it and how we would recover the cost associated with doing it. There are those two questions.
  22. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Does that then lend itself to the idea of a moratorium -- and I hear you saying that you don't believe there should be a moratorium. But the other side of it is the rules or the arrangements would just develop, and then there won't be the ability for the Commission to get some rules in order. And I'm not so concerned about us having the ability to do rules as opposed to the system being orderly, fair and equitable.
  23. MS J. YALE: Well, certainly, we think a moratorium is unfair because there are certain providers that are experimenting, not just distributors, with interactivity today. So I don't know why you would single out distributors as not being able to do these experiments. And as I say, it depends what you mean by interactivity. There are lots of early experiments in a two-screen format, where broadcasters and licensees are starting to develop concepts that are integrated, where there is the traditional television screen programming and the related web programming that you access via computer. So I don't know what you would be stopping if you say no to interactivity because we have two-screen interactivity today.
  24. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Well, I didn't sense they were asking for a moratorium altogether, sort of a moratorium on experimental use, but perhaps on permanent arrangements. Does that make a difference to you?
  25. MS J. YALE: Well, I think the Commission's New Media decision was designed to encourage the development of these experiments, and we really are at the experimental stage, and I think it would really be a step backwards if we said that it wasn't a good idea to try and figure it out, because one of the things we don't really understand is how it's going to work. So I think we are really at risk of prejudicing the development of interactivity if we assume that it's not going to work.
  26. I think the reason that things are uncertain is because no one knows how it's going to work, not because the rules of the game are unclear. And I think the Commission's undue preference rules are more than sufficient to ensure that if a particular programmer thinks that they aren't having the equivalent opportunity to do something that is capable of being done, to seek redress from the Commission. The market is really -- hasn't developed at all yet.
  28. On the wholesale rate, I sense that your position has evolved between your written submission and your submission today, because it seemed to me that you weren't opposing the increase in your written submission, and you suggested that if it was to be allowed, that it be done on a pass-through basis for operators, but today you seem to be quite clear in your opposition to it. Am I right?
  29. If I look at the written submission, the third page -- well, paragraph 7 on the third page: "In the event the Commission approves the rate increase, CCTA requests the Commission indicate in its decision that it would be prepared to approve an application by Class 1 cable operators to increase by 2 cents the pass-through portion of his basic fee." Whereas today you seem to be saying that's not -- and I don't see anywhere else that you are actually opposing it.
  30. MS J. YALE: In paragraph 6 we make it clear -- that's the paragraph right before -- that if the adjustments are made with respect to subscriber growth, and by there, we are looking at DTH subscriber growth as well as the advertising revenue growth adjustments that would take the projected increase in advertising closer to historic levels, that they don't need the rate increase. So paragraph 6, I think, makes it clear that we think they don't need the rate increase.
  32. MS J. YALE: Paragraph 7 says that if the Commission does approve the rate increase, we would obviously want the ability to pass it through to our customers.
  34. I guess I am using the word "I'm sensing" because I didn't feel this was a definitive -- that today seemed to be more definitive, and I think in the one we dealt with yesterday, you were even more definitive in your opposition to it.
  35. MS J. YALE: No, I'm not sure that that would be a fair characterisation. I think what we have focused on in both interventions is whether or not there is added value to customers.
  37. MS J. YALE: And that is the basis on which we would suggest that a rate increase should be given, if at all. And we had that conversation yesterday, and secondly, whether or not the revenue and expense projections should be adjusted in a way to show whether or not the rate increase is really needed to achieve those initiatives in both cases.
  38. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Lastly, let me just ask you about services to the blind and sight impaired. You haven't raised it in your intervention, but I wanted your thoughts on this as the CCTA, whether the Association has given thought to some of the issues that we were talking about today, and how you see the issue developing.
  39. MS J. YALE: Well, it's fair to say that we hadn't given it thought before we listened to the discussion this morning.
  40. I would say that in terms of the discussion of the SAP technology and so on, that generally speaking, that that would require the addition of equipment at every cable headend in order to allow an additional audio feed to be done. So I think the discussion raises a significant number of potential cost issues for distributors.
  41. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: If there were to be a task force or a working group or something, would you be interested in being a part of that?
  42. MS J. YALE: Absolutely.
  43. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. Thanks very much for that information.
  44. Thanks, Madame Chair.
  45. THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks, Commissioner Cardozo.
  46. I don't believe any of the other Panel Members have questions, but there is a question from our legal counsel.
  47. ME L. BENNETT: Actually, thank you, our question has been answered in the meantime. Thanks.
  48. THE CHAIRPERSON: It has been answered in the meantime? Okay. Thank you. Thank you very much.
  49. And on that note, we will take a lunch break, and we will break until 2:30 and reconvene with the remainder of the Pelmorex intervenors and Pelmorex's reply and questions from legal counsel.

--- Upon recessing at 1:28 p.m./L'audience est suspendue à 13h28

--- Upon resuming at 2:35 p.m. / L'audience est reprise à 14h35.

  1. THE CHAIRPERSON: Before we start, for the benefit of everyone who's not in the room, but just to put it on the record, we are going to adjust our schedule slightly. This afternoon we will, after we finish hearing the interventions and the reply from Pelmorex and questions from our legal staff, we will hear the application by CPAM Radio, and we will finish our day after that and tomorrow morning we will do the three radio items, followed by, in the afternoon, World Télémonde and we'll see how far we get with that.
  2. We'll very likely go into Friday morning as well. So having said that, Madame secretaire.
  3. MS L. POIRIER: Thank you Madam Chair. The next intervention is presented by the Canadian Red Cross, La crois rouge canadienne, if you want to come forward. Mr. Wharran I presume, or no.


  4. MR. T. HOSWITSCHKA: Mr. Wharran had to go to Geneva for three weeks, so my name is Tim Hoswitschka and I'm his replacement.
  6. MR. T. HOSWITSCHKA: It was just last minute, so.
  7. THE CHAIRPERSON: Poor fellow, three weeks in Geneva, we're happy to have you with us.
  8. MR. T. HOSWITSCHKA: Well thank you.
  9. THE CHAIRPERSON: Start whenever you're ready.
  10. MR. T. HOSWITSCHKA: Well good afternoon and thank you Commissioners for having me here. My name is Tim Hoswitschka. I'm here to represent the Canadian Red Cross. I'd like to thank you for the opportunity to be here before the Commission, and to voice our support for the licence renewal of Pelmorex Communications.
  11. On behalf of the Red Cross, I would like to state our mission and why we think the weather network MeteoMedia and from here on end when I say weather network MeteoMedia, I'll just refer to weather network, plays an integral in disseminating essential information to the Canadian public.
  12. The Canadian Red Cross is a non-profit, humanitarian organization dedicated to help Canadians as well as victims of conflict or disasters throughout the world.
  13. As a member of the International Red Cross and Red Cross movement, that includes the international committee of the Red Cross, the 177 National Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies around the world and the International Federation based in Geneva, Switzerland.
  14. In Canada, the Red Cross provides a wide range of assistance to millions of people through the national disaster and injury prevention programs. We also tailor programs to the needs of individual communities and they such as : their survival and safety program we promote, a security and well-being program of human dignity and this is all done within countries throughout the world.
  15. Most Canadians still don't think disasters could happen in their backyard, but statistics prove otherwise. In recent years disasters have forced more than 4 million canadians from homes and caused billions of dollars in damage. The payments by governments and insurers have been doubling at an astonishing rate of about every 5 to 10 years. It is the vulnerable that the Red Cross strives to aid, and the people hit hardest after a disaster are the usually the ones who are, cannot afford to buy their home insurance and these people really depend on organizations like ourselves to come in and help them purchase essential items and get them back into apartments, etc.
  16. The Red Cross has always played a major role in responding to large scale disasters in Canada, including the recent floods in Manitoba, in the Saguenay region of Quebec. The Society was also very active in response to the ice storm that we're all pretty familiar with, that paralyzed much of Eastern Canada in 1998 and the Red Cross was also known for coming in during, after the Swissair flight in Nova Scotia and we were there to comfort the families.
  17. The Red Cross played its most recent role in helping to aid the vulnerable by supplying clean water to the inhabitants of North Battleford, Saskatchewan. And this crisis just occurred just a couple of months ago.
  18. Pierre Duplesis, the Secretary General of the Canadian Red Cross states : « Our emphasis is on providing for the basics of those affected by disasters in Canada, sometimes that´s providing food or shelter, other times its helping victims to return to their homes, on occasion it´s simply providing a shoulder to lean on or providing a teddy bear for a child at a scene of a disaster to help provide a sense of safety.
  19. For international disasters, the Canadian Red Cross mobilizes its forces to help raise funds to purchase essential items as water purification tablets, food, tents, blankets and essential medical equipment for people affected by disasters.
  20. Thanks to a caring Canadian public, since 1990 alone, more than 100 million, in public and corporate donations have been directed to those affected by disasters around the world and our resources are essential in funneling money to the appropriate locations.
  21. The Canadian Red Cross also relies on a netword of over 6,000 trained volunteers across the country who are prepared to help in any disaster situation at any moments notice. Without the lending hand of the volunteers, the Red Cross could not do its job effectively.
  22. The Canadian Red Cross relies on the weather network, and this is so important to inform the Canadian public on the potential of disasters, and to disseminate essential information after a disaster strikes in Canada and around the world.
  23. The Pelmorex/Canadian Red Cross partnership will make television viewers aware of severe weather or other emergencies that call for quick action. The quicker the response by the Red Cross and the other agencies allows for a more efficient and effective delivery of humanitarian relief efforts.
  24. With the changes in weather patters which we've all seen recently. The hot weather and spring, etc., Canadians become more and more vulnerable to the effects of disaster.
  25. As the frequency and magnitude of disasters increase so must the capacity of the Red Cross to respond. By building coporate alliances, the Society is able to strengthen and expand its disaster response programs. With this improved capacity, the Red Cross will be in a better situation to help mobilize for disasters itself and move quickly and effectively in its work ethics.
  26. The relationship allows the potential to reduce human suffering, by informing the public about the needs of Canadians and people abroad after disaster strikes. The Red Cross with the help from The Weather Network immediately sends out public service annoucements that encourages Canadians to support disaster victims through the services of the canadian Red Cross. And this is one essential aspect of having The Weather Network work with us, we rely on Canadian corporations, and this is in response to the growing needs of disasters.
  27. Presently the Canadian Red Cross has 13 major corporations on board and one of which is The Weather Network. These will inject more than $3 million in cash, goods, and services into the Society's disaster response programs. Their contributions range from cash, public announcements, blankets, building supplies, cargo space, computers, teddy bears and promotional and educational materials.
  28. The Canadian Red Cross' goal is to have business sectors represented in all areas, allowing the basic needs of disasters to be met. The Canadian Red Cross welcome the following companies as part of its Disaster Services Team, and out of these core 13 groups, we plan on increasing these within the next couple of years to a greater number, but the companies as of now includes : Canada Post Corporation, The Bay, Zellers, Compaq Canada, Corel, Petro-Canada, Royal & SunAlliance, The Home Depot, The Weather Network, Air Canada, Canadian Bankers Association and Yahoo! Canada.
  29. What the Weather Network/MeteoMedia does for the Canadian Red Cross, Canadians around the world, these are the main areas : The Canadian Red Cross signed a three year corporate sponsorship with The Weather Network. The partnership brings Canadians up-to-the minute valuable public service information regarding disaster preparedness as welll critical information during environment disasters.
  30. The primary aim of the relationship is to develop a partnership that actively utilizes the competencies and resources of both the Canadian Red Cross and The Network and the achievement of beneficial results and outcomes.
  31. The Canadian Red Cross and The Weather Network are well aware of the powerful and sometimes destructive results of natual disasters by watching the channel viewers across the countries have immediate access disaster related information from the Red Cross. As well, as timely information in the event of a disaster. This will also air emergency preparedness information from the Red Cross provide Canadians with the tools necessary to prepare for emergency situation.
  32. Canadians must be informed on basic techiques of emergency preparedness to help decrease the effects of being taken by surprise of a natural disaster.  And again, The Weather Network provides on messaging announcing, and this is crucial to The Canadian Red Cross, a 1-800 line, hotline during domestic international disasters.
  33. For example, in India, there was a natural disaster this summer where hundreds and thousands of people were swept away from their homes and this was not covered by the media. We saw a few lines in the Globe and Mail, etc. and no funds were raised, we had to explain to the High Commissioner of the India Embassy that there were no funds made through donation process because there was no media attention.
  34. The on air messaging keeps the urgency of the disaster appeal live in the minds of all Canadians. It has been proven that if there's no media coverage, no funds raised. The more frequent messages reach the Canadian public, the more money will be raised allowing the Red Cross to provide more humanitarian assistance within Canada and around the world.
  35. Samples of on air messaging are : The disaster in Pine Lake, Alberta and the recent disasters in El Salvadore and India.
  36. In 2001, The Canadian Red Cross raised over $5.6 million through its 1-800 line, bank donations and cheques mailed in to the Society for the affected people in El Salvadore and India. The Weather Network and MeteoMedia was key in promoting the urgency of the disaster affected people and need to send relief items to both countries and of course this we strive for, receiving funds and not clothing, etc..because a lot of times people will phone us stating that, well we have clothes etc. but that's just not appropriate, and we've addressed these situations with Embassies here in Ottawa that we need to work with media in informing the public on what people need during disasters.
  37. Right now The Weather Network guarantees The Canadian Red Cross, a 13 week media campaign at no cost, for three years. The campaign has already aired. This year The Red Cross aired its advertising campaign to help increase the familiarity of The Red Cross emblem within the minds of the Canadian public.
  38. The Weather Network and MeteoMedia played an integral role in broadcasting this public information. The estimated market value for each campaign was in excess of $50,000.
  39. As part of the three year agreement, the Weather Network will provide, produce two public service annoucement a year for The Red Cross. PSA's have already been produced for other programs within The Red Cross, RespetED Service, formally known as the Abuse Prevention Services, a series of new messages are currently being produced, etc.. for possible other venues. Also, this summer vignettes and beach safety were recently produced by the french version MeteoMedia and they're currently broadast on air.
  40. The feature Red Cross spokesperson from the Quebec Regional Bureau and they answer commonly asked safety questions, such as what are the recommended lifesaving flotating devices for children, and what vacationers should know tide height, etc. so all in all very diversified in helping The Canadian Red Cross.
  41. And, one other aspect too, is we have a web-link on The Weather Network and this illustrates the partnership between the two organizations. It explains the structure of the partnership and it will bring Canadian up-to-date, valuable public service information regarding disasters and preparedness. By watching the channel and following-up with the website, Canadians will be more in tuned to what the next step should be and possible dangers.
  42. Our relationship with The Weather Network helps us with our mission. Canadians really depend on receiving this information and with the possibility of licence renewal, that's a necessity.
  43. And one last comment, the importance of the partnership. They're committed to our humanitarian objectives and they have demonstrated time and time again that they are committed to social responsibility and they have always lived up to their commitments and they have demonstrated several times to go beyond the call of duty in support of The Red Cross. For example, after all our air time is used up, we can call The Weather Network and they're on board to possibly giving us free additional spots in their programming.
  44. In short, the partnerships helps alleviates suffering of people Canada and around the world and what better partnership can have one have than to have the potential to help save lives, and our motto anywhere, anytime and we are very pleased to have The Weather Network on board.
  45. And thank you for this opportunity and I'm open to any questions if you might have them.
  46. THE CHAIRPERSON: And I'm going to turn you over to Commmissioner Cram, for that purpose.
  47. COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you Mr. Hoswitschka, actually I thought you explained yourself very very well and I have no questions. Thank you very much.
  48. MR. T. HOSWITSCHKA: Ok, thank you.
  49. THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much for being with us.
  50. MR. T. HOSWITSCHKA: Thank you.
  51. MS L. POIRIER: I would now invite the Multiple Sclerosis Society of Canada, Société canadienne de la sclérose en plaques.


  52. MR. R. SAGEMAN: Good afternoon, Commissioners.
  53. THE CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon, welcome.
  54. MR. R. SAGEMAN: My name is Randy Sageman, I'm National Manager, Fund Raising Projects with the MS Society of Canada. Again thank you for allowing to present on behalf of Pelmorex in their efforts for a licence renewal.
  55. I'd like to give you a brief overview on MS, Multiple Sclerosis Society of Canada and in particular how our relationship with The Weather Network has helped us achieve our goals.
  56. Multiple Sclerosis is the most common disease of the central nervous system affecting young adults in Canada. An estimated 50,000 Canadians have MS and there are approximately 1,000 new cases diagnosed each year. Multiple sclerosis affects more women than men, almost 2 to 1, and ususally strikes people between the ages of 20 and 40.
  57. Studies have shown that it is more common in countries that is further away from the equator and that Canada has one of the prevalence rates of MS in the world. This aggressive diseases attacks the protective myelin covering the central nervous system, causing inflammation, and often destroying the myelin in patches. When this happens, the natural flow of nerve impulses' is interrupted. The result may be vision problems, numbness, loss of balance, extreme fatique, tremors and even paralysis. As yet, the cause and cure are still unknown.
  58. Our mission, at the Multiple Sclerosis Society of Canada is to be a leader in finding a cure for multiple sclerosis and enabling people affected by MS to enhance their quality of life. We will have achieved our mission when 1. The cause and cure for multiple sclerosis are identified in the shortest possible time 2. People with MS have the opportunity to participate fully in all aspects of life 3. The Canadian public is fully aware MS and the MS Society, and what it does. 4. All necessary activities of the MS Society are adequately funded and 5. The volunteers and staff, chapters, divisions and national organization, are working together effectively towards our common mission.
  59. Founded in 1948, The MS Society has a membership of 28,000 Canadians. This is the only national vonluntary organization in Canada that supports both, MS research and services for people with MS in their families.
  60. Head Office is located in Toronto, division offices are located in Dartmouth, Montreal, Toronto, Winnipeg, Regina, Edmonton and Vancouver. MS of Canada was also a founding member of the International Federal of Multiple Sclerosis.
  61. The MS Society's is govern by a national board of directors, comprised of 27 volunteers members are elected annually. The seven regional divisions and nearly 120 chapters are also governed by elected volunteers, a volunteer board of directors, excuse me.
  62. An estimated 13,500 women and men volunteer for our service programs, fundraising events, public awareness campaigns and social action activities. Nearly 80% The MS Society's net revenue is devoted to program areas such as, research, services for people with MS and their families, MS clinics and social action, public education and chapter development. Management and fundraising costs are just over 20%.
  63. Much research into MS is based on the idea that MS is probably an auto-immune disease. There's good evidence that genetic factors may determine a pre-disposition to the disease and that environmtal factors such as viruses may also play a part.
  64. The MS Society is the single largest funder of MS research in Canada. Investment and research since the beginning of the program is more than $68 million. Currently funded research projects have targeted myelin, biology and repair immunilogy, bone marrow transplant, genetic susceptibility to MS and MRI studies.
  65. Individual and Family Services assists individuals by providing information, funding and support such as publications and videos and conferences and workshops, equipment purchase, loans, individual and group advocacy, counselling, referrals, recreational and social activities.
  66. The MS Society also works with people who have MS and to ensure that they have the opportunity to participate fully in all aspect of life. Volunteers across the country endeavour to change government policies, private industry practices and public attitudes in ways that will positively benefit people with MS.
  67. The National office also coordinates an overall MS Live Here, public awareness campaign, which is complimented by divisions and chapter activities.
  68. On the fundraising side, The MS Society had a net revenue of $21.4 million in year 2000. Most of this income comes from public donations bequests and special fundraising projects conducted by The MS Society. The major fundraising programs are : direct marketing, major gifts/planned giving and special events, such as MS Carnation Campaign, our oldest special event, the MS Bike Tour, MS Readathon as well as the Super Cities Walks for multiple sclerosis. In total we have over 150-155 events.
  69. And without sponsors like The Weather Network and MeteoMedia, The MS Society's campaigns and special events and other fundraising activities would be extremely limited and difficult to manage.
  70. The Weather Network and MeteoMedia play a significant role enhancing awareness of The MS Society, multiple sclerosis in itself, and in promoting any of our fundraising initiatives, in particular, specials events to viewers across the country.
  71. Sponsorship has become a prinple initiative for our National Fundraising Events Department and sponsorship and event marketing are extremely competitive industry and it's difficult to find socially responsible corporations like The Weather Network and MeteoMedia who have similar objectives and it's often difficult to cultivate those types of relationships.
  72. Part of my involvement with MS in 1987, The Weather Network and MeteoMedia headed from, not only continued to incorporate our PSA's into their programming but they've become an incredible corporate partner as a national associates sponsor for 2001 they've commited to providing us a substantial amount of promotional air time, running tagged, sponsor tag spots for both our Super Cities Walk and Bike Tour events.
  73. Since most of our event are outdoors and weather dependent, volunteers can link easily through our website to The Weather Network's website as well and better prepare themselves for daily event activities.
  74. Promotional benefits like these not only create again awareness of MS and The MS Society and attract participants to our events, but they also add value to our sponsorship packages that we offer to our other corporate national partners. And again there's huge benefits there by enhancing those sponsorship packages through media, we can obviously , how do I put it, acquire more dollars, generate more revenues.
  75. Media partnerships are a crucial component to our sponsorship and fundraising activities as it is for numerous other charities that I've seen them support, such as The Red Cross. The more awareness we can create, the more participants and donors we can attract, more revenues we can generate, more research we can fund, more services we can provide, and in the course we will come to achieving our goals and missions.
  76. The Weather Network and MeteoMedia have helped us tremendously in this way over several years. We would appreciate any consideration on their behalf and urge you to approve their licence renewal, as well as initiatives proposed in their application. Madam Chair and Commissioners that concludes my remarks, if you have any questions, I would be pleased to answer them.
  77. THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Mr. Sageman, I'm going to ask our Vice-Chair of Broadcasting, Madame Wylie.
  78. COMMISSIONER WYLIE: Well Mr. Sageman, I'm sure the efforts you've put into coming here should pay off well, because after such compliments and acknowledgment, MeteoMedia/Weather Network wouldn't dare abandon you for the next seven years. So congratulations.
  79. THE CHAIRPERSON: She has no questions.
  80. MR. R. SAGEMAN: Thank you very much.
  81. MS L. POIRIER: And that will complete phase 2 for this part, we will now hear the reply from Pelmorex.
  82. THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Morissette and Mr. Temple, before we get started, I wonder if I could just offer the opportunity to respond to our Legal Counsel questions before reply, or would you prefer do to that after reply?
  83. MR. P. MORRISSETTE: Before is fine.
  84. THE CHAIRPERSON: Before is fine. So I'll ask our Legal Counsel to proceed with their questions, which they postponed from immediately following your presentation of your application, just because of the time constraints, but that way if you want to capture anything in your reply relating to their questions, you can do so.
  85. ME L. BENNETT: The questions that we have are aimed at clarifying just a number of matters from this morning, so we're gonna go through some of the issues that were touched on by the members this morning and in reverse order I guess we'll touch on the freshest matters first and work our way back towards the beginning, so the first questions that I have relate to closed-captionning, but just to start with, we'd like to ask you about the SAP channel, and in particular is the SAP channel to ordinary cable subscribers?
  86. MR. P. MORRISSETTE: Excuse me, it would be made available, we would make it available to all the BDU's we serve. They may have to install equipment to pass that signal through, that may be already, it may not, but they would have to put some equipment but then it would be available to all subscribers.
  87. ME L. BENNETT: Those individual subscribers wouldn't require any additional equipment?
  88. MR. P. TEMPLE: An individual subscriber would have to have either a VCR or television set that is capable of passing through the SAP audio.
  89. ME L. BENNETT: Thank you. And now, specifically in relation to closed-captionning, in your response to deficiencies you proposed closed-captionning some of the new national, regional - national and regional reports that you would implement on the SAP channel to accommodate visually impaired subscribers, could you give us a little bit of a sense about how that would work?
  90. MR. P. TEMPLE: Our idea was that if we were gonna be producing audio, regional audio reports, that information would be obviously, written down, created and that might be something we could caption that signal. We haven't quite figured out I guess the timing issue, when it's best to actually put that captionning through. That's something we've got in time, and sort out. We also indicated that we would take those audio reports and pass them on to voice print, we've been doing that actually for some time now on a separate initiative, but in terms of the captionning, there's an opportunity there but we haven't, we haven't sorted out all the details yet in terms the, how we would program it in.
  91. ME L. BENNETT: So you don't really have a sense at this point for where those captions would appear and when and how you would avoid having them interfere with other graphics or text on the screen?
  92. MR. P. TEMPLE: That's the problem we're facing. I think that's one of the things we want to talk to the hearing impaired community on is just. There may, there may not be a value to it, it's just something that occurred to us that there could be something to further enhance service but, we still gotta sort out exactly how that's going to work. For the reasons we talked about, but before we don't want impair the existing service to the detriment of the hearing impaired community.
  93. ME L. BENNETT: Ok thank. Now we'd like to ask you a few questions about the interactivity issue that we discussed this morning.
  94. In your comments this morning, it seems that you may have been suggesting that the only way that you could provide localized contents in the digital environment is through interactivity, so we're wondering, what would viewers of the digital service who aren't accessing the interactive elements see?
  95. MR. P. TEMPLE: I guess right now, we are distributed in digital by DTH operators. The signal is going digital right to the home and because they're originating or we're sending them a signal and they're taking the signal and distributing it to all their subscribers, we cannot give the same local content that a cable BDU would be providing to their subscriber, so we have this limitation already in terms of the service we are able to provide DTH. What we try to do in to give you an example, when we do local weather, we'll have to give, because it's a DTH operator serving the entire country, we'll have to give regional reports as opposed to site specific. So if you were a subscriber living in Saskatoon and you had cable service, you would see Saskatoon weather. If you were a subscriber living in Saskatoon with DTH service, you would not see Saskatoon specific weather, you would see a series of regional, regional weather reports.
  96. MR. P. MORRISSETTE: If I can just add to that, in addition, the timing of the element coincides with the timing that we have on the regular analog channel and so therefore when we do the regional pages, we're going to cover the entire country. One page is one region, and then we go across the country, one page after the other, and due to time constraints, instead of providing a five day forecast like we do on a regular PMX pages, with a lot more in-depth local weather, in this instance we're limited to just a few days of forecast, so right there, there's a significant reduction in quality and effectiveness of the service.
  97. We also provide other information on, another example would be road conditions, one of our most popular elements, programming elements in the winter time. Again, by doing regional pages right across the country, you don't have the in-depth coverage of road conditions that we would have through our PMX technology where we cover many more roads and a lot more detail, in every community that we serve.
  98. So those are just a few examples, but everything about programming element that we do, which is localized is affected that way.
  99. ME L. BENNETT: So are those limitations the same in the context of digital cable?
  100. MR. P. MORRISSETTE: That's our expectation, and right now in direct to home, as I indicated in our earlier presentation, these limitations from digital represent the highest level of complaints and concerns that we get and the feedback from our viewers. So that is why, clearly we see as the solution and the road, the provision of interactive components which is not just localized programming that enables people to when they want it, go right to the information that they seek without any of the constraints. If they want five days in five different regions in the country or in the world at the same time, they can get that. If they want specific road conditions for a specific stretch of highway, they can get that and so it would be, it would be almost more detailed and on demand two very significants charateristics that are provided through ITV and that's television which in itself is going to be almost superior to what we currently provide with our PMX products.
  101. ME L. BENNETT: Just to clarify. Are you saying that a digital cable subscriber wouldn't be disservice as it now appears with your PMX, they would be asservice by what you provide on DTH?
  102. MR. P. MORRISSETTE: That's correct.
  103. ME L. BENNETT: Ok, thank you.
  104. This morning, in response to some questions, you talked about the ability of cable systems and DTH systems to provide interactivity, could you right now just talk about MDS and to what extend your answers would change in the context of MDS.
  105. MR. P. TEMPLE: MDS is probably similar in situation to DTH. They typically don't have a return path, although there are ways to implement interactivity neverthless. In terms of the service, the PMX type service, we can provide, it's kind of half way in between a local cable system we can provide information just as a system because MDS tends to serve a broader area. You lose a little bit of the local where's when you're a DTH you're serving the whole country, as Mr. Morissette indicated, tends to get even less local. Is that answering?
  106. ME L. BENNETT: I think so, yes. ok
  107. This morning you were talking about, your concerns about having interactive elements distributed by distributors. Are there interactive elements that you're distributing right now? And I guess the follow-up to that question is, as anybody refused to distribute those elements so far?
  108. MR. P. MORRISSETTE: Well, we are currently doing test with Videotron in Quebec market and it's progressing very well and so far the results, in terms of the popularity of the weather products provided by the MeteoMedia have been very well received. We have been talking with most large BDU's in Canada with regards to introducing interactive television services and there tends to be types of services that get this test. Our priority, obviously is what we refer to enhanced interactive television programming and that is programming that is behind what, the way I visualize it, our core television service and is accessed while watching our channel and would supplement the details of the programming that's available on The Weather Network and MeteoMedia.
  109. The Second category is what we refer to as « walled gardens » and this term has been used in a number of occasions and previous proceedings and my easiest description of a « walled garden », really is a form of portal of content which is aggregated by the BDU and basically controlled and managed and marketed by the BDU.
  110. The strong likelihood that, that « walled garden » content would be made available to all digital subscribers who receive the interactive service capability. Almost the form perhaps of a basic type offering.
  111. So our discussions obviously, our priority is for our enhanced ITV programming, but we also are quite keen on supplying our weather content to some of these « walled gardens » with certain linked us back to our enhanced ITV programming. Clearly we would have no intention of duplicating the extensive proprietary content that we would offer in our enhance ITV programming as part of the « walled garden » because in the fact it's, it would be extremely dilutive and punitive to our own service, so in terms of discussions with many of these players, there's no question that the priority interest has typically been for us to supply « walled garden » products and the tenancy is for, to defer for later discussions the potential for enhanced ITV programming.
  112. Except for the current arrangements with Videotron, which Luc is in the audience, but that's a « walled garden » product, I believe.
  113. MR. L. PERREAULT: The product we have with Videotron right now is a « walled garden » product, but we will be launching the full fledge version of the interactive MeteoMedia/Weather Network, early fall, or probably end of September and we have an arrangement with Videotron to do so.
  114. MR. P. MORRISSETTE: Getting back to some of our discussions, typically what, what the discussion quickly goes to is that on the enhanced ITV product, what proportion of revenues are we prepared to forego, what kind of flat fee are we prepared to incurr up-front, far in excess of, in many cases of the potential revenues, cause the revenues, it's just getting started and it is happening, but the growth curve, well with any kind start up product of this type, the revenues are certainly a number of years down the road.
  115. So the issue of revenu sharing quickly arises and what have you. Other than the Videotron negotiations which very advanced, in the implementation mode, there have not been any firm agreements with other services in that regard.
  116. One service that, that we did talk to, we offered a free product for the « walled garden » service and in effect that did not quite meet their needs because we were insisting that that product be free. Because the enhanced ITV product that we would offer would be free, because it would an integral to our service with no increase in the subscriber fee and that was not acceptable to that particular BDU and in effect was making arrangements to seek their weather contents from another source.
  117. In the meantime, we have not all that much success in progressing our talks for our own enhanced ITV product. So, I mean our worst downside concerned is that a « walled garden » product, again likely the equivalent of a basic offering controlled by the BDU, including weather, is being offered and marketed and what have you, and in the meantime, time goes on, well down the road and there's no enhanced ITV product for our digital service which is essential and critical for the quality of our service.
  118. ME L. BENNETT: So could you discuss the extent to which the existing undue preference provisions known to address that concern.
  119. MR. P. TEMPLE: Well then, with the undue preference provisions are that, high and large they're after the fact. This is, timing is quite critical. If tomorrown I open up the paper and find out that a BDU now has exciting new internet service and it's all interactive service and it's all over the papers and I get my box and I turn it on there's a nice page then, there's cute icons, news, weather, sports, lotto and I can get all my weather now and I go running up and say hey, what about you know, we want to go on too. And then we'll get into, I refer to the CCTA intervention, we'll have to talk about backroom support and so on and so forth and after a little bit of that maybe we'll get frustrated and then come and say, you know come to the Commissioner, whatever, and meanwhile a lot of time has gone by and we're at a tremendous competitive disadvantage. Undue preference, they cut a deal with somebody and that programming decides to give them half of everything that they make, so they come us and they say hey, you can have the same deal. Well, you know, that's a bit of a problem, I mean that's one of the things that we're very concerned about because it's creating the policy and the rules of the game on the fly. If we had to give, if you look at our projections, the revenues are rather modest, the expenses are not insignificant.
  120. We believe in the future of it and that's why it's so important, but if we had to start giving half, I don't know what we'd do. So there's gotta a be a practicality test, timing, then there's gonna be these new services, they're gonna be profiled. Our approach to not charge for the service. I mean I found it just, expand a little bit on the example given earlier, we, as best we can determine, the BDU that we propose to give the information to free, is prepared to pay others to get the information because of a reluctance to provide interactivity on our own service.
  121. Now if you go to this page that's controlled by them and you can get your weather from them, in that format, but if you go to our channel you can't get it, that's a big, that's a big disadvantage. We want people to think that we're their source of weather and that you can come turn on, and I mean that to us is interactive television, you go to the TV, you turn on The Weather Network and then the little icon comes up and you press the button and you're off to the races. So I'm not, I don't think we're condensed, the undue preference rules are really going to help us.
  122. MR. P. MORRISSETTE: At the end of the day, we don't have a problem with BDU's developing « walled garden » contents that they control and market and what have you. What we are concerned about is us, our services having the opportunity at the outset of the game to develop and launch a product that is in integral to our core television networks and an enhancement to that and directly related to that and you know it's clearly a, it's fundamentally part of our service and we just want to be able to offer that, that, the full aspects of our service to digital subscribers as they have access to interactive television. That's our main preoccupation.
  123. ME L. BENNETT: Ok, thank you.
  124. I have a couple of questions now on the discussion this morning about access for the blind. We note that you have plans to update your PMX technology, for example on page 4, part 2 of your slide presentation indicates that, and in particular you've noted PMX 3000 would have limited audio and videoclips. Could this upgrade cycle address some of the accessibility issues?
  125. MR. P. MORRISSETTE: That particular generation of PMX technology has been on the drawing boards now for a couple of years and we don't currently have plans to introduce that. Although we don't eliminate that possibility.
  126. What the PMX 3000 is meant to do is to provide localized, regional programming in larger market centres that cannot support a sub-netword form of local programming as we currently provide in Toronto and Montreal. So that particular unit or generation of technology is far more expensive than our current PMX technology that's in the field, because of the requirements that it provide video and audio content. It would do so on almost a store and forward basis as opposed to a live basis. We would download video and audio elements into that particular unit and play it back based on the strict schedule of our programming.
  127. The only markets that could support the cost of that particular generation of product is, would be the larger markets in Canada not served our sub-networks.
  128. The other element that's made us defer the introduction of that particular capability is the cost of producing the video and audio content that would go into it seven days a week. For those markets that would be served and that is probably the most expensive part of that kind of programming enhancement. Again, this is the type of initiative that, you know, we would be seriously considering adding to, in addition to the East/West feed that we are discussing earlier today. That kind of enhancement is something that we would seriously consider introducing if we did have the benefit of a rate increase that we were talking about before, failing that we just probably could not afford introducing PMX 3000 programming at this time.
  129. MR. L. PERREAULT: To qualify Mr. Morissette`s response, when we first look at the PMX 3000 business case, we looked at it for sytems in excess of 3000 subscribers because of the cost of the unit itself. You have to take into account that we are currently serving 930 systems with less than 2000 subscribers. So at the level of our rate currently, such a technology can`t be financially viable in such small systems.
  130. ME L. BENNETT: Thank you. In your planning for interactivity will you be considering accessibility issues?
  131. MR. P. MORRISSETTE: Well, the so question that when the benefits of this particular proceeding and I refer specifically from the intervention from Mr. and Mrs. Stark, in our dialogue that`s taken place over the past several months with members of communities that are disadvantaged, as significantly hightened our awareness of needs and concerns and as also enlisted a very clear commitment on our part, which I`ll be repeating later in the response interventions to integrate the needs of these various groups into our planning and execution of our programming strategies. So, I guess we`re always going forward and I think we`ve demonstrated that in the past too that we are prepared to innovate and introduce ideas to meet various needs of various groups. Obviously it`s gotta be affordable, it`s gotta be viable. In a number of case it`s gotta be one step at a time. As technology continues to evolve, it will create new opportunities to do that.
  132. So the bottom line is, yes, to the extent possible ITV will factor in the concerns of those groups.
  133. ME L. BENNETT: You indicated this morning your intention to continue consulting with representatives of the blind and visually impaired community. Have you considered setting up some sort of advisory committee, either formally or informally.
  134. MR. P. MORRISSETTE: Well, when Mr. Stark completed his very eloquent intervention and discussion this morning, I did meet with him outside this room to indicate to him, I`d be personally following up with him to arrange for a feedback process on a regular basis.
  135. We`ve already been in touch with a variety of groups. We have not contemplated formalizing that. What we do, want to do is on a regular basis, you know, meet with a variety representatives, a variety of different areas of representatives of these disadvantaged groups to constantly get their feedback and their input and be more sensitized to their needs, and we are committed to doing that.
  136. However we think that a lot of the issues raised are, go beyond just The Weather Network and MétéoMédia and I think reflect industry wide issues and concerns and this is where I think that the more formal approach ought to be encouraged and should take place and we definitely would want be part of that on, on more industry wide basis to work with a number these groups to continue improving awareness and dealing with solutions to address their needs.
  137. MR. P. TEMPLE : Further to that, I think in essence the NFDAE in their intervention actually suggested a broader form because their frustration it`s taxing their resources to have to deal with these issues on a case by case basis and I think a lot of the issues, as Mr. Morissette said, they`re bigger than us and we have past those interventions and our responses on to the CAB and it`s something we intend to follow-up because, you know, the issues of presenting information and text and graphic, I mean, you know, PULSE 24, ROBTV, I mean, we all face similar challenges; Voiceprint intervention commented on technology being developed, kind of a screened reading type software for television. That would be of value to all programming services because you can get screen reading software for a PC but not for television.
  138. We'll own, I mean, the group that's working on it in the United States, they're working with the likes of Microsoft and Bell labs. We're not going to solve that problem on our own, but working in concert with the rest of the industry, I think we can make more of a contribution.
  139. ME L. BENNETT: Thank you. On page 21 of your oral presentation this morning, you mentionned that researchers going underway on developing cost effective solutions to the technical challenges of providing the audio feed. Could you describe that research?
  140. MR. P. MORRISSETTE: I guess we came up prepared to deal with these response interventions, but fully, but surely we're getting our entire crew back up here. I'll ask Jean Pierre Boulanger to address that.
  141. MR. J.-P. BOULANGER : There is different work being done at different places in the world on the subject, being the speech synthetizers, being the, screen reading to automize the scripting of that. The research we're doing at this point in time for us is mainly to get acquainted to all of those things and to be able to differentiate which of those ones, because most of them are tied for PC usage and not for TV, which of them as a merit and can be re-adapted to something like we are doing, and that being how to automate the processing of making an audio and the notion of delivering it, taking into consideration local stuff in our case.
  142. MR. P. TEMPLE: Just to clarify though that statement was not, it was that there is research going on, not that we're conducting that research.
  143. ME L. BENNETT: Ok, thank you. This morning we talked about your alternative proposal, but we didn't ask you about the timetable for the SAP proposal. Can you tell us what the timetable is for implementing that proposed alternative service?
  144. MR. P. MORRISSETTE: I thought we had addressed that this morning, but we're prepared to introduce that within a few months following the decision and so I would expect sometime this fall, but that would be in full force.
  145. ME L. BENNETT: Thank you. In light of Mr. Stark's comments this morning that a better description of visual elements on your service would be helpful, could you describe your activities in sensitizing your on-air personnel to accessibility issues and what your plans for the future are?
  146. MR. P. MORRISSETTE: I'll kick it off. First of all, Rick Ridgeway, our Chief Operating Officer, would normally handle the lead for most of these programming decisions given our corporate structure and my non involvement in programming matters, but in his absence, there's no questions that we often have dialogue with our on-air people in terms of not standing in front of certain parts of the country that the obliterates the view to our programming for many viewers from that region and that kind of training is ongoing and I have no doubts that Basia who her producers and also our Director of Programming for MétéoMédia would provide with very strong support bordering on you better do it. From the senior management, to the effect that definitely being much more sensitive, and much more competent in terms of describing the picture. With that I`ll pass it on to Basia.
  147. MS. B. UJEJSKA : Just to add to that, when we recruit for our on-air presentation as Val Morissette indicated, we try to get a broad demographic. Most of the on-air presenters do not have a meteorological background and they not have a live production background because we`re up to 20 to 22 hours live per day. It requires a huge training curve on behalf of the on-air presenter. On top of that we add all the meteorogical elements that makes us unique in intrinsic and weather information that we relay to viewers.
  148. As Pierre pointed out, and Mr. Stark pointed out earlier today, a great part of that training is to make these seem on-air presenters who, who do not have the experience of what it is like to be visually impaired, to make them understand who our blind and visually impared audiences, and how to properly describe. It`s not a quick process that we`ve learned. Some on-air presenters have captured the essence through experience a bit better and through constant feedback but we do make very strong efforts in order for them to understand.
  149. MR. P. MORRISSETTE: Bottom line is that we`re commited to improve the description, oral description of what is being presented on air and we`ll do that through training, and monitoring and follow-up.
  150. ME L. BENNETT: Thank you. I have just one small clarification question on the East/West feed. Can you just clarify that after, is it 4 hours in the morning, the service would then revert on The Weather Network, it would revert to the single feed, is that the case?
  151. MS. B. UJEJSKA : We`d revert to a what is currently our national feed so where we would cover the country, the country as a whole, so it wouldn`t be specifically dedicated to eastern or western, but it would cover both areas.
  152. ME L. BENNETT: Thank you, those are our questions.
  153. MR. P. TEMPLE: Just to clarify. If there is active weather than it would provide us the opportunity to again provide two feeds, so for instance if there was a flood in Winnipeg, we would have the capability of either extending the coverage in the morning or to reconvene later in the day when something happened, so without, a normal course it`s 4 hours, but if there is unusual circumstances than we would look to spread the feeds again.
  154. MS. B. UJEJSKA : Just to give an example of that, our four hour feed would end at 9 :00 Pacific time or 10 :00 Mountain time. Last year the Red Lake tornadoe occurred late in the afternoon and this would be a good, this would have been a good opportunity for us to specifically address information on the extrimities of that situation to our western audience.
  155. MR. P. MORRISSETTE: One last comment in that regard is a reminder that contrary to most, or all other television networks in Canada, our primetime is the morning. That`s when we have the biggest impact on the Canadian viewership. By far that`s when people use our service the most to plan their daily activities and what`s coming up. So providing an East/West feed during our primetime, our viewers primetime for The Weather Network benefits viewers right across the countries, east and west because zeroing and doing a better job in both areas of the country at that time.
  156. ME L. BENNETT: Thank you.
  157. THE CHAIRPERSON: Our Vice-Chair has a question for you.
  158. COMMISSIONER WYLIE : Since we`re back into questions, Mr. Morissette did you take part in the Digital Services hearing as an applicant.
  159. MR. P. MORRISSETTE: Yes we did. We`re one of the few existing networks that came out empty handed, but it was our choice to apply for only one service.
  160. COMMISSIONER WYLIE : So you are well aware that the, or perhaps you would agree with me that the record was rather thin about the urgency of dealing or doing anything about interactivity, that in general applicants were, I think it would be fair to say, rather vague about when and how and what matter and they would use true interactivity and that, not suprisingly, the decision you cited earlier said, well the Commission thought it was not necessary to address these things at this time. Is your position now due to the fact that you have a very specific need or a specific service where the need to use interactivity is integral, I think I hear you say and therefore there`s an urgency in making sure that this is passed on, or has the world changed since then with other services and there would be some value in the Commission if it did not choose to address your request in the context of the renewal, the reasons for that have been expressed, do you think there would be value or any interest in speeding up a regulatory look into interactivity in that we may have misunderstood, or been mislead by the urgency of dealing with it?
  161. MR. P. MORRISSETTE: Well just going back to the Digital Licencing Hearing, our application for a Travel and Leisure Network which would have many similarities to The Weather Network/MétéoMédia service and ITV was an integral part of that particular application and I recall quite clearly that our particular application spent an awful lot of time describing the characteristics of our interactive TV programming and the integral element of that particular content as well.
  162. So our position may, is not really that much different, if I recall, as we`re presenting today. It was going to be substantially an information intensive basis with dynamic information that`s changing all the time, just like The Weather Network is perhaps not as regular changes and up-dated like The Weather Network but definitely a dynamic content.
  163. Getting back to The Weather Network and MétéoMédia today, we just underline the unique characteristics of our service. There is no other service in Canada today who is so dependent on localization. We use the words integral, fundamental, it`s the essence, these I guess we`re using those words to underline the critical importance of that part of our programming, not just to us, but to meet the needs of our viewers. If we can`t meet the needs of our viewers, than we`re not doing the job, and so that leads us to again being technologically quite strong, anyway, or in tune with technolgy. We`re always looking forward and there`s no question that given the essence of our business, understanding what the implications of moving to digital is for our service. Looking at the affordable solutions that ITV just jumps out, plain, clear and simple.
  164. COMMISSIONER WYLIE: But surely you understand the regulatory dilemma of dealing with things on piecemeal basis isn`t new at all. I am not very advanced in my understand of the niceties of interactivities, but I seem to recall that we talked about very basic first generation, whatever the words were, interactivity all the way up to more complex calling up of information in the middle of entertainment proramming and purchasing Ally McBeal`s pyjamas as I recall, of which I wouldn`t too I`m sure, considering her size but that was one of the examples that was brought up. If you liked what she was wearing, you could order it, etc.
  165. I suspect that you are talking here about the lower level of interactivity, correct, where one calls information and not that second generation where a lot of decoders seem to have been invented or been available. Am I correct? That we talked about first generation interactivity and it was more the higher end that no one seemed to have planned. I recall for example, a fishing show where someone asked what river is this or you know?
  166. MR. P. MORRISSETTE: The common theme was crawn, walk run in terms of describing this.
  167. COMMISSIONER WYLIE : And they would be fed the same, what you`re interested in right now, is that the cost?
  168. MR. P. MORRISSETTE: Yes because we`re talking about first generation ITV, but that is where it begins and it`s going to evolve and we just want to be part of the beginning because for us even at the crawl stage, ITV in the digital mode is going to represent the essence of our service from and larger digital. Solves the DTH issues for 25% of the subscriber base in Canada. Addresses MMDS as well and gets on the ground floor of cable digital services and we will then evolve with the rest of the industry but for us to wait two years when we could be offering ITV as it`s made available by BDUs right up front, is detrimental to our digital service offerings down the road and detrimental to the subscribers that.
  169. COMMISSIONER WYLIE : I understand your company`s aim and the value to it, but I`m trying to reduce things to a more practical level at the regulatory, with the regulatory perspective. Of course the CCTA will say well it`s (inaudible) to do anything at the moment in the eyes or would being that you have in your renewal and you will say it`s (inaudible) to allow them to wall their gardens and organize their lives in a way that will shut you up possibly, practically or real terms, but the passage of time. I'm trying to determine whether, should the Commission not be prepared to handle this in this process whether the paired down process would be manageable where only the initial use of the use of this technology as you present it to us could be looked at outside of this renewal.
  170. I've not learned it enough to know whether what it is you propose is more simple and could be reduced to certain applicable, generally applicable rules for anyone who offers the same type of service, but my understanding is that it would simple call of information noted that, right, there would be a information there that I would call for and our other services interested in that could that be an initial process. Just trying to explore with you if the Commission should decide that this is not the way to operate from the regulatory perspective in the renewal process to make rules adhoc.
  171. Is it a manageable part of the call without looking at all the aspects of the more advanced generation interactivity, which we all bring different questions and preoccupations financially and otherwise and if I recall the requirement of bandwidth, etc., etc. where maybe the expectations of distributors will legitimately be different. I'm just trying to get you to tell us, is there any other way of dealing with this than the way you put to us.
  172. MR. P. MORRISSETTE: Before we respond to that I would just like to confer briefly with my colleague here.
  173. COMMISSIONER WYLIE: Don't have to answer if you don't want to, I'm just trying to advance the file.
  174. MR. P. MORRISSETTE: Ok there's no question the request in our licence renewal to amend the description of our service to incorporate ITV programming because it's integral to our service, is at the top of our wish list.
  175. We're aware of the Commissions' concern about establishing policy adhoc and we felt when we prepared our application that in the case of The Weather Network and MétéoMédia that being treated on an adhoc and exceptional basis in this particular matter might be justified because we are so unique and different as an information service which applies and lends itself probably more than any other services in Canada to ITV.
  176. Feeling that, I guess the very lease that we would hope for is perhaps in our licence renewal decision is that a very clear and explicit acknowledgment of our unique character as the information service and that given the technological complexity of our service, given the essence of localization of our service that the transition from analog to digital makes the addition of ITV a very important element for a service like ours and that generally speaking this should a clear signal that it should be integrated into ITV capabilities of BDUs and passed on to subscriber as part of , so it`s not a change in the condition of licence but it`s a clear signal and perhaps that`s, that could be a middle ground pending a proceeding, there you say what kind of proceeding.
  177. The sooner that we could have proceeding to clarify the ground rules in this regard because again we`re talking here about the future viability of our service and we don`t like to have that hanging out there very long and in doubt and we`d like to clearly have the ground rules clarified in that regards. So, pending a proceeding, which could be a short form dealing with a specific part of interactivity for enhanced ITV programming, that could be an alternative.
  178. THE CHAIRPERSON: Now I have to ask the question. When so much of your revenues are generated through to subscribers and advertising, how can this affect viability, varied viability of your service? I hear what you`re saying in terms of your need to have this clarified, but I guess I`m questionning the notion that your viability hinges on it. Unless your financials have changed substantially since I read them in your application.
  179. MR. P. MORRISSETTE: Well you`re quite right that a significant proportion of our revenues is subscriber based and
  180. THE CHAIRPERSON: What are you projecting to come from ITV?
  181. MR. P. MORRISSETTE: From ITV in the early years, a nominal amount.
  182. THE CHAIRPERSON: Hmmmm..
  183. MR. P. MORRISSETTE: A nominal amount.
  185. MR. P. MORRISSETTE: But it`s what we expect to see developped is an ongoing growth in digital television subscriber basis in Canada. There`s already 15% out there through direct to home, for which we`re getting complaints daily, and for which I`m convinced that the audience share on direct a home is probably significantly less than the one share derived mostly through cable.
  186. If our share were to drop over the next three years as digital increases, because we don`t have the capability of providing ITV or as other weather alternatives are available through ITV to walled gardens, what have you, then a drop in share of one to let`s say .8, 20%, or .6, 40%, well that directly impacts our level of revenues.
  187. THE CHAIRPERSON: Right, through advertising.
  188. MR. P. MORRISSETTE: That`s right, and then we`re starting to talk about material amounts very quickly and in the meantime we`ve invested in, through our current growth in our revenu base 37% of that is in programming, the bulk of our programming costs are people. The cutback in that regard very quickly would be very difficult, tends to get entrenched, so what we`re talking about is a very material drop in profitability very quickly.
  189. THE CHAIRPERSON: So if I can just paraphrase your answer to the Vice-Chair, if we didn`t do anything specific in your licence decision, you would like to see a process held, some kind of scale down process that would deal with this first generation of interactivity. There`s a pretty short answer to that.
  190. MR. P. MORRISSETTE: I indicated that that would be acceptable in keeping with.
  191. THE CHAIRPERSON : You know what your ideal
  192. MR. P. MORRISSETTE : A clear acknowledgment of the essence of ITV to our services in the licence decision and expectation that as BDUs have capabilities to distribute ITV programming that weather network contents be disservice.
  193. THE CHAIRPERSON : Ok, thank you. You may proceed to your reply


  194. MR. P. TEMPLE : Well I guess we`ll start with interactive television since we just left it a couple of comments. I think we`ve probably already covered some our concerns about undue preference in the questionning. We`re concerned that the existing rules governing undue preference will not be sufficient in the circumstances, contrary to the comments made by CCTA.
  195. Also in response to some of the comments made by CCTA, we`d like to make it clear, we proposed in the extreme situation a moratorium on the launch. They seem to characterize it in moratorium on interactive television. We`d be the last ones to want that. What we`re concerned about is everyone kind of talks about these things, services will be launched and that was our concern. We hope development continues, we want to be at the forefront of that, talking with distributors and so just to clarify it, they seem to indicated we were calling for a moratorium, period, and that`s not the case at all.
  196. I guess the second, or another comment made by CCTA regarding interactivity, again was raising issues, and I think they referred to them in their comments, but in their written intervention they list all the issues, the major building blocks required to support employment in it`s headend service and customer service and operational support and modems and the list is quite long. I don`t want, that`s not what we`re talking about.
  197. We`ve made quite clear that until the BDU has been able to resolve these issues, we expect, we have no expectation of carriage. It`s when these are used to delay that we become concerned, but we have no expectation of being distributed in an interactive format until the BDU has the infrastructure in place. In most of these things there all under the control of the BDU, we`re not gonna decide which set top box they select, we`re not gonna decide what operating system, we`re not gonna train their customer service people. Those are all within their control and as patient as can be while they work those problems out.
  198. All we`re saying is, that when they`ve worked it out, there should be certain rules as to who gets carried and when and our proposal was that that within the guidelines of a condition of licence, would clearly establish programming, licenced programming services at the top of the list.
  199. So I think it`s very important we distinguish between the kind of smoking mirrors of the technical issues and the kind of policy and rules that are necessary to make sure that interactivity proceeds clearly, or quickly.
  200. Finally, I think I just lost, no I didn`t. We made three proposals and we discussed this quickly. Our first choice of the condition of licence, we think that it`s the clearest, has the greatest benefit for the Canadian broadcasting system. We also, as Mr. Morissette indicated, and as we responded to CCTA, we do not, we do not object that the Commission decides, it`s not the appropriate way to go for whatever reason. Gee I`m beeping all over today.
  201. THE CHAIRPERSON : You`re wired.
  202. MR. P. TEMPLE : That means my son better be home doing homework, but anyways, that if that`s not the way to go then a confirmation from the Commission that these elements are integral to our service, and should be distributed. I think that probably ges a long way to solving the problem, and it`s only if none of those options are deemed appropriate, would we be calling for a moratorium on the launch of services and I think that`s it`s, it`s on the interactive.
  203. MR. P. MORRISSETTE : Ok, now we`ll wrap up my commenting on CCTA`s intervention with regards to a rate, our request for rate increase and secondly to Mr. Stark`s intervention this morning with regards to our limitations in dealing with the needs of visually impaired.
  204. First of all, on the CCTA intervention on the rate. There was some comment questionning our forecast revenues and therefore we should just extrapolate the past in paraphrasing and that should cover our financial requirements down the road and provide the level of PBIT margin would eliminate our economic need. We stand by our projections. There`s no questions that the rapid growth of the last five to eight years that we`ve experienced will not repeat itself in the future.
  205. Just an example in terms of advertising, we will have some growth and that`s factored into our projections from selling more spots, the more accounts, in terms of volume growth.
  206. In terms of pricing growth, that`s totally dependent on growing our audience share and by comparison we`re very proud of the fact that we have a one share today and to put into perspective, the weather channel in the States in a market environment which is very competitive but maybe not all that more contentive than Canada has a .3 share.
  207. For us to expect, in the past seven years we`ve gone from a .3 to a one share. For us to expect that we`ll go from a 1 to 1.7 is, I think is very unerealistic. We`re (inaudible). The bottom line is we`ll work very hard to grow that but for us to expect significant price increases in our advertising sales in the future is not realistic.
  208. In terms of subscriber growth, we`re virtually fully penetrated once again, and in terms of our expense forecast, we`re efficient, pretty tough to become more efficient than we already are and so at the end of the day the forecasts that are before you, are real, I think they`re achievable but there`s a downside to them and they also incorporate by the way, you know, increase revenues from interactivity and East/West feed, if we can afford to introduce that.
  209. So we stand by the projections. In addition I think it`s very important to note that the largest member of the CCTA did not support CCTA`s position on the rate increase. In fact, does not object to our proposed rate increase. I`m talking about Rogers Cable. They do not oppose it, number 1, because it`s a modest request, number 2, becaust it`s justified and warranted by the quality of service that we provided over time, and I think it`s very significant that the largest distributor in Canada supports our request for a rate increase.
  210. Lastly, or second last, you know, we`re also requesting I guess to go back where we once were. We were once authorized to offer our service at a rate 25 cents and we`re requesting to reinstate that based on the economic need argument that we presented in our application this morning.
  211. Lastly, we have brought support for this. From the public, hundreds or so people who intervened, nobody expressed other than the CCTA and a few other distributors, opposed the rate increase others did not really object to it. So, at the end of the day, we feel that our argument for economic needs stands on its own merit. It is modest, it is justified and we hope that the Commission will agree with those views as well.
  212. Turning to Mr. Stark`s intervention. We did address many of my comments I guess through the earlier questions. First and foremost, you know, we are committed to ongoing consultation with Mr. Stark, but with other broader groups and associations representing visually impaired communites, as well as hearing impaired community and to get their feedback and to have an ongoing dialogue to understand their needs better and find practical solutions to meet those needs. Also the benefit of that dialogue is that representatives of those particular groups will understand some of the realities constraints and non-viable solutions that apply here and so benefits in the consultation and dialogue both ways.
  213. Having said that, you know there`s no question that we`re committed to the plan that we put forth, but that`s a beginning and we want to build on that plan and continue working to improve the solutions over time.
  214. Some of the initial enhancements as we discussed a few moments ago, you know, improving the descriptive video in general on our programming. I mean the marching orders are effective now and we will definitely be working on improvements in that regards starting short term.
  215. In addition, we will explore the possibility of adding descriptive, or descriptive video with certain elements of our programming such as the Traveller`s Report that was described and on incorporating that perhaps in the SAP programming that we`re proposing and, but also be looking to see which of those elements could be realistically provided on a regular programming. Let`s not forget that something like travellers who are moving from one part of the continent right down to the Carribean Islands and so on, and we spend just a few seconds on each page, the viewer tends to zero in on the community that they`re most interested in, whereas there could be a dozen communities listed in a few seconds. Very difficult to provide a descriptive video. But, we`ll be explore, is what we`re saying and trying to find the solutions in that regard. In the meantime, the exploring to add that are those elements to our SAP programming.
  216. Lastly, it was a very good suggestion to explore synchonizing audio on SAP for some of these elements that we`re talking about with the timing of our video elements and that`s definitely something that we`ll explore as well.
  217. So, we are committed to improve our performance for the benefit of the needs of the visually impaired community in this country during the course of the next licence term.
  218. Lastly, we would just like to express thanks to the many intervenors who have supported our application. But in particular, representatives from The Red Cross and Multiple Sclerosis Society who came a long way today to present their views in support of our application. So today and on all other intervenors, we appreciate the job and lastly I`d just like to say that we`re proud of what we`ve accomplished, we`re a standalone service. We don`t benefit from all the efficencies and synergies of larger groups, notwithstanding that we`ve demonstrated we`re one of the most efficient operators around. We`re totally dependent on our revenu growth for our survival and we`re also totally dependent on being a leader in opportunities provided by technology and as the market evolves, and we`re investment spending to make that happens. We`re excited about the future, and we look forward to our next licence term with a lot enthusiasm. Thank you very much.
  219. THE CHAIRPERSON : Thank you Mr. Morissette. I`m sure it turned out to be a much longer day than you thought it would be, but I think we`ve had a good discussion and got a lot of good information on the records so thank you for your patience and you`ll be hearing from us.
  220. MR. P. MORRISSETTE : Thank you very much.
  221. THE CHAIRPERSON : Not tomorrow but in due course. We`re going to take a brief break and we`ll recommence with the application by CPAM at 4 :30 p.m. we`ll be back.

    ---Upon resuming at 4 :30 p.m / L'audience est reprise à 16h30.

  222. LA PRÉSIDENTE : Bonjour Mesdames et Monsieurs. Bienvenue et merci beaucoup pour votre attention aujourd`hui. Vous pouvez commencer.


  223. M. M. MATHIEU: Bonjour Madame la Présidente. Bonjour Mesdames, Messieurs les commissaires. Bonjour au personnel du conseil, alors Mesdames, Monsieurs, mon nom est Michel Mathieu, je suis conseiller en radiodiffusion et mandaté par mon client, M. Jean-Ernest Pierre qui représente la compagnie CPAM Radio- pour vous présentez cette demande aujourd`hui dont je suis très fière. Cette demande vise à désservir les communautés haitiennes, africaines francophone ainsi que latino-américaines du grand Montréal et ce, dans la langue de la majorité, c`est à dire le français, et pour se fair se qui rend ce projet techniquement très innovateur et bien nous nous proposons d`utiliser une des nouvelles séquences AM récemment allités en Amérique du Nord.
  224. C`est à dire la bande de fréquence de 1600 à 1700 kHz. À ce jour, personne au Canada n`a demander au conseil, à ma connaissance en tout cas, de pouvoir utiliser ses fréquences là.
  225. Nous avons décidés d`utiliser la fréquence 1610 kHz, et grâce à cette antenne qui est une antenne en fibre de verre qui nous permet de disposer des fameuses tours de transmission conventionelle, ça nous permet d`installer une antenne comme source, dans un parc, sois dans un stationnement, et sa nous permet d`être au coeur de la région désservis et d`utiliser une puissance de 1000 watts le jour et la nuit et d`offrir un signal de très haute qualité à l`ensemble de nos auditeurs.
  226. Alors avant de revenir à tous ça, j`aimerais vous mentionnez que sur les studios de la station de radio en question, sont munis d`équipement ultra moderne, et pour élaborer j`aimerais vous présentez à ma gauche, notre expert en informatique, qui est un animateur de radio chevronné, qui a été directeur musical, directeur de programmation, qui a travailler dans plusieurs stations de radio, notamment CFJL, CIEL, CIME et CKLM, j`en passe. Alors j`aimerais passé la parole immédiatement à M. Daniel Robert et par la suite je vous présenterai notre équipe. Daniel.
  227. M. D. ROBERT : M. Mathieu, merci beaucoup, et Messieurs et Mesdames les commissaires, bien merci beaucoup de nous reçevoir aujourd`hui. Moi c`est ma première expérience devant le CRTC. J`entends la radio qu`ont en a parler beaucoup, les employeurs nous en parlaient beaucoup, je ne savais pas vraiment ce que c`était, mais je vous jure j`ai été impressioner par le travail qui vous est dotté dans une journée.
  228. Peu importe c`est pas le moment de vous parlez de intendants, mais du projet de M. Ernest Pierre. Comme on vient tout juste de vous le mentionnez, je suis conseiller en information et spécialisé depuis quelques années dans la structuration et d`informatisation des stations de radio.
  229. Trente ans de métier dans le domaine, en tout et partout, avec les 23 ans en ondes, me permet de bien ciblé les besoins des radios diffuseurs, et du personnel en général et ainsi offrir un produit de qualité en ondes, et il n`en sera de même pour la nouvelle station projetée pour Montréal, CPAM Déjà, Me Jean Ernest Pierre, initiateur du projet, a à sa possession le plus performant des logiciels de mise en ondes disponible sur le marché. WaveStation de BSI (Broadcast System International), que je vous montre ici. Malheureusement, j`ai pas pu vous faire de copies, est utilisé déjà par plus de 5,000 radiodiffuseurs dans le monde, dont la chaîne Europe 2, en France et des dizaines d`autres déjà au Canada.
  230. Ce logiciel permet une très grande souplesse d`actions dans un contexte économique qui exige de plus en plus des médias électroniques. Et grâce justement, sa grande polyvalence, le WaveStation peut à la fois diffuser une émission en directe et en enregistrer une autre en même temps ou reçevoir également des signaux satéllites pour un bulletin en provenance, par exemple, d`Afrique ou d`Haiti.
  231. À titre d`exemple, un animateur peut enregistrer en moin d`une heure facilement de cinq à six heures d`émissions et ensuite couvrir une importante conférence de nouvelles en toute quiétude. De plus, à l`aide d`un ordinateur branché sur un modem téléphone, un employé peut directement entrer en ondes via le WaveStation, peu importe l`endroit ou il est sur la planète.
  232. Autre point important à considérer, l`expérience de M. Jean Ernest Pierre en ce qui concerne la production de musiques, de messages d`intérêts publique à l`aide d`un logiciel appelé CoolEdit Pro qui est utilisé pour, par à peu près 90% des radiodiffuseurs et téléviseurs dans le monde et d`une console de titre McCurdy qu`il possède déjà et qui constitu à mon avis une bonne base de départ pour l`installation de ses studios de mise en ondes et de production.
  233. En terminant mon exposé, mentionnons que tout ces logiciels fonctionnent sous Windows, donc très facile d`utilisation contrairement à d`autres systèmes complexes comme par exemple, on peut penser à Pristine ou (inaudible) qui fonctionnent sous les environnements DOS qui sont très peu connus par le publique en général.
  234. J`ai déjà trois installations à mon actif, CJMS Saint Constant, CJIT fm Lac Mégantic et Radio Francophone Mondiale sur Internet. Deux autres sont en construction présentement dont une à La Tuque et une autre à Saint-Pamphile, à qui vous avez accorder une licence tout récemment.
  235. Je peux donc vous assurer que CPAM Radio-Union.Com sera très bien équiper pour désservir ses auditeurs et surtout offrir un service de qualité avec la plus performante des technologies disponible présentement sur le marché. Et, sur ça je vous repasse mon camarade de travail que vous connaissez bien, Michel Mathieu.
  236. M. M. MATHIEU: Je vous remercie mon ami Daniel, alors Mesdames, Messieurs je veux juste pour enchérire, un émeteur am 1000 D de la marque CCA est en notre possession, nous avons tout l`équipement auxilière audio de contrôle et de télécommande alors M. Pierre est bien organisé si on veut, bien équipé pour si vous le permettez, mettre, une station en ondes et en faire un succès, tant au niveau, si on veut artistique, qu`au niveau financier.
  237. Alors moi j`aimerais dans un premier tant, et ont reviendra tantôt, vous présentez notre équipe, et notre requérant, Me Jean Ernest Pierre est un professionel de la loi, membre du barreau du Québec. M. Pierre est un ingénieur en Haiti, un avocat en Haiti. Il a été directeur de quelques stations de radio en Haiti et il est radiodiffuseur depuis plus de quinze ans, non seulement en Haiti, mais ici au Québec, il est ici depuis plus de quinze ans. Il a été président du conseil d`administration de la station de radio rive-sud, CHAA Longueuil. Il anime toujours d`ailleurs tout les dimanche matin l`émission, alors M. Pierre est ici à ma droite.
  238. À mon extrème droite, j`ai le plaisir de vous présentez M. Paul Brown, M. Paul F. Brown, historien et à l'arrière Madame Anne-Marie Pierre, qui est la mère de M. Jean Ernest Pierre et à coté, le fils de mon ami Jean Ernest, M. Maxime Pierre. Alors sur ce fait, je remet la parole immédiatement à Jean Ernest, qui va vous présentez ce magnifique et unique projet de Radio-Union.Com.
  239. M. J.E. PIERRE: Merci Michel, merci mesdames et messieurs des commissaires. Ça me fait plaisir d`être avec vous cette après-midi et je pourrais dire que c`est déjà une victoire morale d`être en face du CRTC pour présenter ce projet.
  240. Je commencerai par remercier tous ces gens qui nous ont accompagné, qui ont tenues à nous accompagné, qui sont rester depuis ce matin. C`est pour la plupart des gens, au présentants des associations comme l`association des Haitiens de Gros Marin, l`association des (inaudible) Montréal, association SweetLive Music, l`association église Baptisme, association Haitienne des Haitiens du Céjep de St. Laurent et le passion compa.
  241. C`est des gens qui ont été vraiment très patient, ils sont avec nous depuis 5h00 ce matin et ont sais pas quand est-ce qu`on va sortir. Èvidemment, je vais aller droit au but pour vous dire que je penses que nous avons fait quand même des pas majeurs depuis le moment ou j`ai pensé à ce projet. Il m`a fallu convaincre les membres de ma famille d`abord, que c`était quelque chose de sérieux et de faisable. C`est toujours pas facile quand il s`agit de dire à son épouse qu`on va entreprendre quelque chose qu`on fait.
  242. Depuis plusieurs années, bénévolement on veut le faire de façon professionelle, alors qu`on agit déjà dans un autre domaine qui nous prends beaucoup de temps. Alors il m`a fallu convaincre donc ma famille. Mon équipe avec qui je produit cette émission sur les ondes de CIMF depuis près de quinze ans, avec qui j`ai eu de sérieuses discussions sur la faisabilité du projet.
  243. Mais là ou j`ai rencontré le plus de difficulté, c`était avec un bonhomme qui a une trentaines d`années d`expérience en son actif, qui a accepté finalement après plusieurs semaines de pourparler, Michel Mathieu, qui a étudier le projet en profondeur et qui a été convaincu du sérieux de l`affaire et se n`est que par la suite que j`ai présenté le projet au CRTC, mais mon travail n`était pas terminé car il fallait aller rencontrer des associations régionales, des associations à Montréal, des organismes para-gouvernemantaux, comme la Société St. Jean Baptiste de Montréal.
  244. Convaincre des ministres, des députés pour m`appuyer effectivement vous avez des appuies dans ma demande et même quand ont a pas d`appuie dans le cas de certains ministres, bon bien c`est tout simplement pour une question d`éthique.
  245. Mais j'ai convaincu beaucoup, beaucoup de gens du bien fondé de ce projet. Tout en sachant que le meilleur reste à venir, c`est à dire, les vrais à convaincre c`est vous cette après-midi, alors que Dieu me soit en aide.
  246. Deux points majeurs de ce projet, et c`est pour ça que je vous disais que j`allais aller droit au but, c`est le fait de demander une station de radio ethnique, étant donné que nous nous adresserons à des communautés ethniques, comme la communauté Haitienne, à 50% du temps, à la communauté Africaines à 15% et à la communauté Latino-Américaines à 15%, donc à 35% pardon, donc une radio ethnique, et que nous vous disons par la suite, que nous voulions avoir une dérrogation à savoir quand au contenu verbale, c`est à dire, à 100% francophone et je sais parce que j`ai eu plusieurs lettres de (inaudible) auxquelles ont a dû répondre et cette question est revenue plusieurs fois et je sais que cette après-midi je dois vous expliquer mais pourquoi ont veux faire ça.
  247. D`abord nous disons qu`il faut aider ces communautés, les communautés visés à vivre en français au Québec, c`est l`intégration de cette communauté, de ces communautés là, à la culture francophone. C`est un fait que la question de l`intégration des communautés culturels se posent tous les jours au Québec. Pour des gens qui ne sont pas habitués, qui ne vivent pas au Québec, ont peut croire que c`est une fantaisie que nous fesons en voulans que cette radio ethnique soit en français, mais pour des gens qui vivent, surtout des gens des communautés ethniques, qui vivent au Québec, toutes les frustrations que nous pouvons vivres.
  248. M. M. MATHIEU: Je crois se que mon ami Jean Ernest devait expliquer c`est que un peu de compréhension à certains moment donné dans un Québec francophone, et je penses je c`est essentiel sinon primordial que ces gens là aient une chance de s`exprimer en français, de comprendre la langue française et quel meilleurs moyen de le faire que de leurs faires tourner de la musique dans leurs langue, que de leurs donner une programmation telle que définie par la vie publique du CRTC, c`est à dire, une programmation qui est orientée vers les haitiens, les latinos et les africains canadien français, mais en leurs parlant français. Je penses que ça c`est primordial et c`est pourquoi nous sommes là aujourd`hui.
  249. Ce projet auquel je crois. Si vous regardez les stations de radio à Toronto, vous avez une situation, vous avez des problèmes de fréquences à Toronto présentement, j`en suis très conscient et même impliqué et il y a quelques petites solutions mais pas grandes solutions, mais s`il vous plaît, n`attendez pas que sa arrive à Montréal.
  250. Il y a beaucoup de fréquences am présentement à Montréal. Ce qu`ont offrent dans cette demande c`est un test, en fait, quelque chose que nous ont est convaincu qui va fonctionner. Au niveau technique, j`ai la lettre d`approbation d`Industrie Canada, j`ai quand même M. Doug McCauley, un ingénieur qui travail avec moi, ça va fonctionner, cependant ont veut donné le ton parce que ont a peut être d`autres groupes qui sont intéressés d`appliquer pour ces fréquences là, que personnes ne veux.
  251. M. J.E. PIERRE: Alors je m`excuse, j`ai toujours défendu les autres et puis pour moi, c`est ma cause aujourd`hui et c`est très très difficile. Il y a la question de la réalité de linguistique des immigrants qui sont visés par la demande, qui est quand même très différente de celle qu`ont pensent. Ces immigrants de la 2ième, des 2ième, 3ième et 4ième générations ne s`expriment pas dans la langue de leurs ancêtres et aujourd`hui je vous ai apporté un tableau vivant, c`est le cas de ma mère qui est, ont a pas le sense de se tromper, c`est une femme qui est en arrière, c`est ma mère qui est arrivée ici en 1978. Elle est arrivée ici unilingue créole, ont vient d'Haiti. Aujourd`hui elle ne parle que créole.
  252. Elle est encore unilingue créole toujours en faisant des efforts d`adaptation, toujours en esseyant d`appeler le 911, quand il faut appeler le 911 faut pouvoir dire, faut pouvoir expliquer en français. Quand ont va l`hôpital, quand elle est seule, ma mère doit pouvoir s`expliquer, quand elle doit faire affaire avec des fonctionnaires, elle doit pouvoir s`expliquer, donc elle s`arrange mais elle ne parle pas français.
  253. Je suis arrivé en 1980 et avec toute la formation qu`on vous a dite, je parlais donc français et créole, bilingue. Je me suis marié en 1980, la même année et mon fils est premier garçon est né, c`est Maxime Pierre, est né en 1982. Maxime est aussi bilingue, il parle français et anglais. Il ne parle pas créole. Maxime ne parle pas créole et c`est la situation pour la plupart des immigrants, la 2ième, 3ième génération finissent par perdre la langue d`origine, la langue maternelle.
  254. C`est évidemment pas un exploit pour nous, quand on sais par exemple moi je pourrais vous parlez du créole, le créole c`est une langue charmante, c`est un héritage culturel que nous avons reçus des ancêtres, qui ont dû modifier le français pour pouvoir faire la révolution et devenir indépendant, alors le créole est une déformation du français. Je suis très heureux mes arrières, arrières petits enfants continuent à parler créole, sauf que l`environnement ne si prêt pas, alors il faut vivre avec cette réalité là.
  255. Quand ont parlent de radio, alors quand ont parlent de radio pour des ethniques, donc il faut donner effectivement penser aux générations futures, leurs donner un outil de promotion qui peut leurs êtres utiles. Mais pensont aussi qu`il est extrêmement important par contre que même à une radio ethnique ou ont parle le français, aux personnes concernés, que l`on puissent diffusé de la musique, la musique créole, la musique espagnole, de la musique africaine.
  256. Question d`arriver à intéresser ces jeunes là à la culture haitienne, à la culture africaine, à la culture hispanique, tout simplement parce que nos jeunes n`écoutent pas ces musiques là , ils écoutent la musique rap, ils écoutent, ils n`écoutent pas les postes francophone.
  257. Alors il faut arriver à les intéressés en traitant leurs problèmes, les problèmes qui les touches directement mais tout en apportant une touche arrivé à les intéressés à la musique, à la culture traditionel, à la culture de leurs ancêtres et ça c`est tout un exploit, mois je me dis que le service que nous proposons d`offrir, c`est un service qui n`existe pas actuellement à Montréal.
  258. Aussi, je voudrais dire tout simplement que nous voulons quand même être conservateur, nous savons qu`il y a des règles que nous voulons respecter. Nous proposons un contenu pour la première et la deuxième année, un contenu canadien à 20%, un contenu francophone à 20%. La deuxième et la troisième année, un contenu canadien à 35%, un contenu francophone à 25%, tout simplement parce que nous avons ici dans la salle des représentants de groupes musicaux qui donc évoluent ici, qui ont un disque ici.
  259. Evidemment si dès la première année de l`existence d`une radio comme CPAM Radio-Union.Com ont se met à jouer la musique de ces gens là qui n`ont jamais été très en demande étant donner que les radiodiffuseurs à Montréal ne les faits pas tourner à la radio. Alors si ont se mets à les jouer sa va créer une forme de pression sur eux, il faudra que sa se fasse de façon graduelle et pourquoi moin de contenu francophone, c`est tout simplement parce qu`il font la musique, la musique est canadienne, puisqu`elle est fait ici, mais le contenu est en créole, est en africain, et le contenu est en espagnole, alors donc il faudra qu`à se fasse de façon graduelle et de manière à ce que nous arrivions sans heures, peut être la quatrième année à pouvoir respecter tout les règlements du CRTC.
  260. Alors, nous présenterons.
  261. M. M. MATHIEU: Selon je dois passer, si vous le permettez, avec le peu de temps qui nous reste, la parole à M. Paul F. Brown, historien, quì aurait quelques propos à nous dire et par la suite ont concluera.
  262. M. P. F. BROWN : Madame la présidente, messieurs les commissaires, moi en fait je connais rien du tout en radio, j`ai de la difficulté déjà à parler devant un micro alors imaginez vous donc.
  263. Je suis historien, on l`a dit, je suis aussi enseignant et je suis éditeur. C`est à titre d`éditeur finalement que j`ai accompagné mon ami, Pierre ici. C`est que je me suis rendu compte à un moment donner que les gens arrivent ici de tout les horizons n`ont pas de tribune. Une tribune comme radio, CPAM Radio-Union.Com c`est une tribune.
  264. Pourquoi une tribune? Ils ont mentionnés tout à l`heure que ils vont s`adressés, ils vont intéressés les africains, les haitiens, les hispanique. Moi je ne suis ni hispanique, je ne suis ni haitien et pourtant ça m`intéresse. Pourquoi? L`exemple le plus concret si je veux vous donner ici c`est que à ma maison d`édition j`édites des gens qui viennent de partout, j`édites du latino, j`édites les gens sont libanais, avec qui ont a en commun la langue française. Et cette maison, je ne veux pas faire de publicité ici, mais c`est juste tout simplement pour illustré ce carrefour sans frontière que nous avons, notre maison d`édition s`apelle Édition les cinq continents.
  265. Alors les cinq continents sa veut dire quoi? Sa veut dire que pour moi la langue, une langue telle quelle soit n`est pas unique un outil de communication, c`est aussi une voix de la rencontre, c`est à dire de la culture. À partir du moment ou ont peut, je vois par exemple à Montréal plusieurs stations de radio. Je ne connais pas la programmation, mais il m`arrive jamais d`écouter ces postes là parce que je vais vous le dire, mois je comprends pas le créole donc j`écoute pas radio centre ville.
  266. Par contre je vais écouter CIBL, pourquoi, parce que, un exemple concret encore, c`est un africain qui anime une émission, je penses les dimanches ou les samedis soirs, et son émission est fait entièrement, entièrement en français et je trouves que cette nouvelle station si elle voit le jour, et c`est mont choix le plus ardent, se sera aussi une complémentarité pour ce véhicule que j`ai dis que c`était un instrument de culture.
  267. C`est tout ce que j`ai à dire, je ne connais rien à la radio.
  268. M. M. MATHIEU: Je vous remercie mesdames et messieurs, je crois que notre temps est presque écouler, est-ce que Jean Ernest vous auriez quelque chose à ajouter en terminant rapidement.
  269. M. J.E. PIERRE: Évidemment j`ai pas clef de ces interventions telles positives, et parmis les plus remarquables qu`il faut quand même cité celle de la Ligue des Noirs du Québec, celle du Conseil des relations inter-culturelles, celle du Conseil élu par les haitiens de Montréal, celle de quelques députés comme (inaudible), Madame Fatima de Pépin, M. Yvon Charbonneau, député d`Anjou, Jacques Sadad, député de Brossard, Madame Nicole Roy-Arsenais, c`est des gens que nous avons rencontrés et qui ont pris la peine de voir le projet, d`étudier le projet, qui ont pris la peine de nous rencontrés, qui nous ont posés des questions et qui ont étés, qui ont vus l`urgence et qui ont acceptés de nous appuyés.
  270. M. M. MATHIEU: Alors si vous me permettez medames, messieurs les commaissaires, je veux juste commenter quelques petites secondes sur ce que vous avez devant vous cette après-midi, c`est une demande de Radio-Union.Com pour désservir les communautés culturelles, des haitiens, des latinos, des africains, en français.
  271. On a des gens dans la salle qui ne sont pas seul, sa veut dire qu`ils représentent la plupart de ces gens là, représentent des organismes. Ils ont fait le trajet à leurs frais, entre Montréal et Hull depuis 8h00 ce matin qu`ils sont ici, je penses que sa veut dire quelque chose.
  272. Comme Jean Ernest vous l`a mentionné, il a eu un petit peu de difficulté à me convaincre de son projet, je connais quand même les règlements du CRTC puis je voulais pas m`embarquer dans un affaire avec une fin de non reçevoir. Je dois vous dire que le projet, j`y crois. J`y crois sincèrement, parce que je penses que présentement dans le paysage radio phonique de Montréal, vous avez une (inaudible) de stations francophones et anglophones qui font à peu près toute la même chose, et là vous avez des grosses compagnies qui achètent les petits ou qui s`achètent entre eux autres les gros. Vous avez presque plus de petits radiodiffuseurs.
  273. Voilà l`occasion à Montréal d`augmenter un petit peu l`offre l`assiette radio phonique en donnant sur une fréquence que personne veut, un serrvice qui dans la vie dérangera personne. Parce que nos commanditaires se sont engagés à ne pas retirer leurs publicités l`a ou ils sont déjà (inaudible). Alors les radios communautaires qui diffusent des émissions en créole, sont bienvenue de continuer de le faire.
  274. La radio ethnique de Montréal CFMD n`est pas intervenue au contraire ont a eu des rencontres avec eux, ils nous ont même aider, parce que eux sont intéressés aux italiens et aux grecques. Les autres ethnies ils le font, par obligations radio phonique et par esprit d`éthique professionel, mais dans le fond le gros de leur programmation c`est les italiens, les grecques.
  275. Les radios communautaires évidemment, il y d`autres radios qui offrent du temps d`antenne, mais y a pas personne qui peut vraiment dire qui désserve les latinos, les africains, les haitiens. Nous ont y voient notre compte, on y voit même un profit, c`est une entreprise commerciale qui sera être viable.
  276. Je vous remercie, nous sommes à votre disposition pour vos questions.
  277. LA PRÉSIDENTE : Merci beaucoup, Madame la Vice-présidente.
  278. COMMISSAIRE WYLIE : Bonjour Messieurs Pierre, Madame Pierre et vos collègues. Vous nous avez rapeller que c`est votre première expérience devant le CRTC, alors vous avez sans doute reconnu aujourd`hui, puisque vous étiez ici pour une bonne partie de la journée, que notre but est d`essayer de décortiquer d`avantage, de clarifier, de poser des questions, pour arriver à mieux comprendre votre projet. Alors c`est l`esprit dans lequel vous devez prendre nos questions.
  279. Je peux vous rassurer que j`ai bien lu votre demande et je vais m`y référer et je vais essayer de passé d`un sujet à l`autre d`une façon organiser, si possible.
  280. Je comprends le but de votre demande, je crois. J`ai bien compris votre, il s`agit maintenant de voir comment on peut trouver une façon de clarifier comment ce projet se matérialiserait, et évidemment je vais vous posez des questions dans le cadre règlementaire qui existe en ce moment et vous M. Pierre et vous M. Mathieu vous comprenez que il existe un cadre élémentaire et que votre demande ne s`insère pas facilement dans le cadre qui existe. Ce qui ne veut pas dire qu`on ne peut pas discuter de possibilitées.
  281. Alors voilà, voilà l`exercise et le but et l`esprit dans lequel je voudrais bien que vous acceptiez mes questions, que vous y répondiez à votre guise selon vos compétences ou vos intérêts.
  282. Vous nous dites que vous voulez désservir les communautés haïtienne, africaine et latino-américaine. Ce que vous appelez à la page 12 de la partie 1 de votre demande comme les communautés ethno-francophone, et je crois que c`est répéter dans l`étude qui a été préparer pour vous par CHB.
  283. Je voudrais vous demandez si il y aura d`autres communautés ou d`autres groupes ethnique qui seront désservis par l`entremise de votre, directement ou indirectement par l`entremise de la radio proposée.
  284. M. M. MATHIEU: Je m`excuse, avant de passé la parole à M. Pierre, il est arrivé un petit flash tantôt ou M. Brown a parlé des libanais, alors je n`ai pas eu l`occasion de discuter des libanais avec M. Pierre, mais c`est peut-être quelque chose qu`on voudrait regarder, alors.
  285. COMMISSAIRE WYLIE : Oui, il faudrait que M. Pierre nous indique quels sont ces intentions en ce qui concerne le nom de groupe ethnique, parce que comme vous savez vous avez une demande de radio ethnique et normalement le conseil n`indique pas dans ces conditions du sense exactement lesquelles mais le nombre de groupe désservis, etc.
  286. Nous voudrions mieux comprendre si il y aura d`autre groupe qui seront indirectement désservis par la station que ces trois communautés principales.
  287. M. J.E. PIERRE: Voilà, pour l`instant nous avons regarder l`endroit ou cette radio va être située à Montréal. À Montréal comme vous savez, c`est une ville, on ne veut pas le dire publiquement, Montréal est bilingue. Il y a des immigrants qui sont établis dans l`ouest de Montréal qui sont anglophones et ceux qui sont établis dans l`est qui sont francophones.
  288. Là ou la radio va être située, nous serons situé au coeur de ces trois communautés là, trois communautés, c`est à dire, sud américaine, communauté haïtienne, dans le cartier St. Michel, donc et la communauté latino-américaine.
  289. Alors voilà les trois communautés qui vont, en priorité, bénificier des services de cette radio là. Et quand on choisi à Montréal de vivre dans l`est de Montréal c`est qu'on fait un choix de langue automatiquement aussi, vous comprenez.
  290. Pour l`instant, mois je vous dis, honnêtement, pour l`instant, ça ne veux pas dire qu`on a fermé à l`avenir à d`autres communautés, mais pour l`instant l`objet c`est ces trois communautés là qui ont matérialiser leurs volonté de vivre en français dont les enfants de 2ième et 3ième générations vivent déjà en français alors c`est par ces gens là qu'on pense en priorité pour l`instant.
  291. COMMISSAIRE WYLIE : Comme vous le comprenez, il est possible de diffusé de la programmation ethnique comme défini par le conseil dans la langue française ou la langue anglaise, pas seulement dans des langues (inaudible).
  292. Mais est-ce que vous seriez prêt et vous connaissez bien la définition, il faut que ce soit évidemment, que sa vise évidemment ces communautés là. Est-ce que vous accepteriez par exemple comme condition distance que ces trois groupes là soient les groupes désservis par la station dans proportion à peu près 50-35-15 que vous avez proposé dans votre demande? Vous seriez comfortable avec une exigence que votre programmation soit dans une certaine proportion de la programmation qui soit diriger vers ces trois communautés.
  293. M. J.E. PIERRE: La réponse pour moi c`est oui. C`est clair et on est prêt à signer n`importe quoi comme condition de licence.
  294. M. M. MATHIEU: C`est le but de la demande, c`est le but de la demande.
  295. COMMISSAIRE WYLIE : Maintenant quand on parle de communauté haïtienne, je suppose que c`est la musique se serait surtout créole quand se n`est pas français et africaine, la musique serait en différentes langues.
  296. M. J.E. PIERRE: Oui, c`est la musique focus mais c`est la différente langue aussi.
  297. COMMISSAIRE WYLIE : Et, en ce qui concerne la portion latino-américaine, la musique. Est-ce qu`il y aurait par exemple du portuguais à cause du Brésil, vous parlez de l`Amérique du Sud. Sa ne sera pas seulement l`espagnole?
  298. M. J.E. PIERRE: En général, pour moi, à ma connaissance, je vous dit la musique latino-américaine est en espagnole, c`est le salsa.
  299. COMMISSAIRE WYLIE : Et vous n`en, je crois que dans la liste des chansons ou de la musique, je crois hier avoir vue portuguais, non? Brésilien, non?
  300. M. J.E. PIERRE: Brésilien, oui
  301. COMMISSAIRE WYLIE : Sa ne serait pas impossible.
  302. M. J.E. PIERRE: Sa ne serait pas impossible, non
  303. COMMISSAIRE WYLIE : De considérer que sa désservirait un pays asser important de l`Amérique du Sud.
  304. M. M. MATHIEU: C`est une question de demande, Madame Wylie, si vous le permettez et que si la demande nous ait fait de diffuser de la musique en portuguais, c`est sure qu`ont est ouvert à ça, on est pas fermer à du tout, c`est juste une question d`exprimer au conseil de diffuser une musique pour ces gens là et c`est la raison pour laquelle nous devons diffuser la musique dans leurs langue.
  305. COMMISSAIRE WYLIE : Et M. Pierre, est-ce que je comprends bien que toutes les émissions de création orale seront fait en français.
  306. M. J.E. PIERRE: Oui Madame.
  307. COMMISSAIRE WYLIE : Bien qu`à votre avis elles seront à 100% ethnique.
  308. M. J.E. PIERRE: Ethnique et, mais sa sera fait en français, oui.
  309. COMMISSAIRE WYLIE : Dans le sense qu`elles seront diriger ou elles viseront les trois communautés en question.
  310. M. J.E. PIERRE: Alors, sa me permet de faire une petite nuance quand je dis en français. C`est la question de l`accent. Il y a le français québécois, c`est un peu pour ça je ne veux pas critiquer mon ami, Michel Mathieu qui est radiodiffuseur, qu`il a été encore tout récemment directeur de station de radio.
  311. Quand je lui ai demander à Michel Mathieu, pourquoi un accent tel que le miens ne passerait pas à votre station de radio commerciale, et dès qu`il m`aime là, il n`a aucun problème avec moi, mais il m`a dit que ton accent ne passe pas Jean Ernest. Et il a déjà eu des haïtiens faire des émissions en créole, à faire des émissions avec de la musique créole, mais pour faire des émissions traditionelles comme le retour à la maison, et tout ça, non sa ne passe pas.
  312. M. M. MATHIEU: Madame Wylie, si vous le permettez en complément de réponse, j`ai été propriétaire d`une station de radio qui s`apelle CHRS sur la rive sude de Montréal. J`avais M. Steve (inaudible) qui a fait une émission chez nous, l`émission pour les haïtiens, et que j`avais soliciter pour faire une émission disco à ma station de radio. Puis malheureusement à cause de l`accent, sa passait carrémment pas, malheureusement chez les francophones. Et c`est là que Radio-Union.Com va se distinguer.
  313. C`est pas moi qui va être en ondes, c`est pas M. Daniel Robert, c`est M. Jean Ernest Pierre. C`est M. Steve (inaudible) et c`est là où vraiment la différence va se faire. Ça va être une différence de sons, ça va être une différence de musique et ça va surtout être, et la programmation pour bien répondre à votre question tantôt va vraiment être ciblé vers les haïtiens, vers les latinos, vers les africains francophone.
  314. M. J.E. PIERRE: Autrement dit, pour ajouter, pour faire un complément d`information et pour répondre de façon plus spécifique, quand on parlent, est-ce qu`à va être fait en français, oui je parle français, oui les latinos parlent français, mais avec des nuances qu`on ne retrouve pas dans le parlé français québécois, donc nous avons apporté un petit peu de soleil si vous voulez. C`est ce qui vient avec notre culture, que voulez-vous. Alors donc dans notre français à nous, toutes les émissions seront faites à notre façon par et pour les haïtiens, les latinos et les sud-américains.
  315. COMMISSAIRE WYLIE : Vous comptez, M. Pierre que il y aurait 75,000 personnes dans la couverture de votre antenne qui serait haïtiens, ou d`origine haïtienne et 185,000 personnes d`origine africaine ou latino. Est-ce que, latino-américaine, c`est à dire. Est-ce que ces chiffres nous semblent supérieur à ceux de Statistique Canada en 96. Vous nous avez parler un peu de la façon de déterminer l`étendu de ces communautés, est-ce que vous pourriez nous expliquer en page, comment vous êtes arriver à ces chiffres.
  316. M. J.E. PIERRE: Bon, alors ce que nous savons, d`ailleurs nous avons consulter des organismes communautaires dans chacun de ces communautés. Je penses que j`en ai fais référence dans les lettres de (inaudible) que nous avons répondu en français. Nous savons que il y a énormément de compatriote, par exemple dans la communauté haïtienne, qui n`ont pas régulariser leurs situation vis-à-vis de l`immigration et donc qui ne sont pas comptabiliser comme si il s`agit de Statistique Canada. Il en a de même des communautés africaine, et en a de même des communautés, de la communauté latino-américaine.
  317. Alors donc les chiffres que présente Statistique Canada sont nettement inférieurs par rapport à la réalité.
  318. COMMISSAIRE WYLIE : Comment avez-vous déterminer l`étendu de cette écart?
  319. M. J.E. PIERRE: Alors nous n`avons pas de baguette magique comme tel, en prenant contacte avec les organismes communautaires de ces communautés ethnique là, que nous sommes parvenus à des chiffres plus ou moin approximatifs. Mais par contre, pour ce qui s`agit de la communauté haïtienne que je connais le mieux, nous avons réaliser des élections dans la communauté haïtienne pour se nommer un leader, ils se sont choisi des représentants et là nous avons plus ou moin une idée plus exacte donc de l`étendu de cette communauté là.
  320. Effectivement, les chiffres que nous présente Statistique Canada sont nettement inférieurs par rapport est-ce qui est la réalité. Parce que ces élections là étaient ouvertes effectivement même à ces gens qui n`avaient pas de citoyenneté ou qui n`avaient même pas la résidence au Canada et donc nous avons vu effectivement qui avait pas mal de gens qui étaient en situation « illégale », c`est à dire qu`il n`ont pas de résisdence, certainement qui n`ont pas la citoyenneté canadienne.
  321. COMMISSAIRE WYLIE : Souvent les radios ethniques organisent un conseil, ou un comité consultatif pour s`assurer d`avoir un organe quelconque pour désservir toutes les communautés qu`elle visent qui ne sont pas toujours des communautés bien connus ou les mieux connus par les propriétaires ou la direction de la radio et je vois que vous suggérez que c`est une possibilité que vous entreveriez. Maintenant, comment avez-vous, êtes vous arriver à décider que vous désserveriez ces trois communautés là dans les proportions indiquées et quel sera le mécanisme, comment fonctionnera ce conseil pour que vous vous assuriez de bien les représenter de satisfaire la clientèle que vous visez.
  322. M. J.E. PIERRE: D`abord la proportion comme je l`ai présenter dans une des lettres de (inaudible) c`est par rapport au nombre que ces gens là représentent, à l`importance de ces communautés là qui sont dans cette endroit là, donc 50% de la communauté haïtienne, serait 50% plus élevée par rapport aux autres, et la communauté latino-américaine 35% et la communauté africaine francophone, parce qu`il y a beaucoup plus d`africains mais qui sont des anglophones et qui vivent dans l`ouest de Montréal, donc c`est cette proportion là que nous avons prise et pour décider que effectivement le temps d`antenne serait réparti de cette façon là.
  323. Maintenant le deuxième volet de la question sa sera vraiment asser facile puisque nous aurons un comité former de cette communauté là, parce que à chaque communauté sa spécificité sa prends des gens de ces communautés là pour effectivement rentrer à l`intérieur, quand je parle de la communauté latino-américaine, nous avons déjà à CHMS que j`ai eu le bonheure de présider, un comité déjà à l`intérieur de la station qui produit une émission latino-américaine avec le comité que nous avons des contactes. C`est de là que nous avons pu donc prendre contacte de façon plus directe avec, se qu`on peut appeler la communauté latino-américaine.
  324. La communauté africaine, c`est beaucoup plus évident pour nous puisque nous désservons, moi en tant que professionel du droit, j`ai une asser bonne clientèle africaine. Alors donc, il n`y a pas de problème du tout, nous allons mettre sur pieds ce comité là qui va pouvoir nous recommandé ce qui serait mieux comme en fait de programmation pour la communauté africaine, pour la communauté latino-américaine et la communauté haïtienne que je connais disons beaucoup mieux.
  325. Mais évidemment, je n`ai pas l`intention d`arrêter de faire du droit, il doit y avoir donc à l`intérieur de la station une, un comité pour la communauté haïtienne aussi qui va travailler avec les deux autres comités en un comité de programmation comme tel.
  326. COMMISSAIRE WYLIE : Et vous prévoyez combien de représentants sur ce comité?
  327. M. J.E. PIERRE: Ce comité, c`est pour être un nombre impaire, c`est trois personnes par communauté, donc qui ferait un comité de neuf personnes pour que sa soit pas trop lourd et facilement gérable.
  328. COMMISSAIRE WYLIE : Pouvez-vous me donner un exemple de se qui se passe dans le comité avec lequel vous êtes impliqué à la station de radio? C`est CHAA.
  329. M. J.E. PIERRE: C`est CHAA, oui.
  330. COMMISSAIRE WYLIE : Un exemple de leurs d`activités.
  331. M. J.E. PIERRE: Un exemple de leurs activités. Ils produisent une émission de ration à CHMF, c`est une émission de 9h00 jusqu`à minuit, donc c`est une émission quand même de trois heures. Samedi dernier ils ont été jusqu`à 1h00 du matin. Alors ils ont à l`intérieur de leurs communauté, des rencontres justement, d`activités avec les jeunes sutout, parce que c`est quand même des jeunes qui évoluent à CHMF. Ils ont des rencontres de sensibilisation avec les jeunes de leurs communauté et qui, et aussi des, comment on apelle ça, des rencontres avec les parents pour permettre à ces parents là de comprendre leurs jeunes qui sont en difficultés d`adaptation au Québec.
  332. C`est le type de travail que font ces jeunes là, parce qu`ils sont eux mêmes des jeunes, mais disont un petit plus vieux et sensibiliser à problématique qui existe ici et c`est ce type de travail là qui font que je trouves c`est très bien, c`est des jeunes vraiment très très bien balancer qui n`ont pas perdus la carte comme, parce qu`il y a pas mal de délinquences malheureusement au sein de ces communautés là.
  333. COMMISSAIRE WYLIE : Vous semblez connaître les exigences du conseil en ce qui concerne la construction des radiodiffuseurs aux talents canadien et vous vous adressez dans votre demande au 3,000$ qui est souvent contribué par les radios ethniques surtout si ils sont membre de la division de l`association ou la division ontario de l`association des radiodiffuseurs ethniques qui serait 3,000$ par année auquel vous seriez prêt de contribuer si vous étiez une station ethnique. Est-ce que vous deviendrez membre de cette association des radiodiffuseurs ethniques.
  334. M. M. MATHIEU: En fet quand on a regardé ça, on aura effectivement regardé le contour de service, on a regardé les stations CJMR de Mississauga et CIAO de Brampton en Ontario qui eux contribues 3,000$. On c`est comparé à la station ethnique de Montréal, CFMB qui est cinquante fois plus puissant que nous à 50 Khz et on a établis qu`une contribution raisonnable, si on compte, tiens compte des contributions de 8,000$ de CFMB, serait un montant juste équitable serait 3,000$. C`est aussi une question de marché de revenu.
  335. Qu`en à devenir membre de cette association, il n`y a eu aucun pourparler puisqu`ils sont en Ontario et je penses qu`on pourrait considérer, Jean Ernest de leurs parler, de voir si il y aurait lieu de se joindre à ces gens là.
  336. COMMISSAIRE WYLIE : Vous êtes au courant sans doute que ce 3,000$ là contribu à l`établissement d`un catalogue d`enregistrement à caractères ethniques canadien. Est-ce que vous entrevoyez que cette, ce catalogue pourrait vous être utile à vous aussi?
  337. M. J.E. PIERRE: Oui, évidemment moi je n`ai jamais vu le catalogue et évidemment j`étais sensibiliser jusqu`a présent à ça. Mais je penses que sa pourrait effectivement, quand je vous ai parler tout à l`heure des talents canadien ethnique, qui faut protéger, je vous l`ai dit tout à l`heure, ces gens là ne sont pas connus du tout et un catalogue pourrait leurs êtres utile effectivement.
  338. COMMISSAIRE WYLIE : Pour réaliser, sans doute que si le conseil ne pouvait pas trouver une façon de vous donner une licence radio ethnique que ces attentes au niveau de la contribution au talent canadien serait beaucoup plus élever que 3,000$.
  339. M. M. MATHIEU: Je comprends Madame Wylie que les attentes pour une station francophone dans le marché de Montréal sont de 27,000$, je comprends que pour une station anglophone et la station ethnique CFMB et une station à Montréal am francophone, les contributions sont de 8,000$. Mais si vous regardez notre carte de contour, notre contour que le CRTC défini comme un contour de marché, c`est à dire le contour diem 15 Médi Volt au mètre et vous le comparez à des stations de Montréal, et vous regardez surtout les revenus, vous allez comprendre le pourquoi du 3,000$.
  340. Cependant on est prêt à discuter avec le conseil d`une formule en allant, en augmentant disons dans les cinq, six , sept prochaines années de ce montant. Mail il faut quand même un montant de départ et nous avons établi à 3,000$ le montant du départ juste et raisonnable pour notre entreprise compte tenu des revenus anticipés.
  341. COMMISSAIRE WYLIE : Et compte tenu de l`importance évidemment de contribuer au développement des talents canadien justement dans les communautés qui vous intéresses, vous voyez 3,000$ comme un maximum pour la première année M. Pierre.
  342. M. J.E. PIERRE: Oui, je reprendrais la même réponse que vous a fait mon ami Michel Mathieu. Évidemment c`est pas fermé dans le béton comme on a dit, parce que quand on vous a présenter ce tableau, faut dire que c`est des revenus qui sont anticipés. Nous avons tenu compte de la puissance de la station, nous avons tenu compte du marché en général et quand nous avons, et même été rencontrer des radiodiffuseurs comme CFMB, la question, cette question là nous a été poser par, quand au talent canadien, mais pour ne pas disons nous être hostile, nous avons dû donc parler à plusieurs radiodiffuseurs et CFMB tenait à savoir qu`est-ce qu`on chargerait, qu`est-ce qui adviendrait du marché, qu`elle est notre intervention au niveau du marché avec une station comme ça.
  343. Donc il a fallu que nous y allions disons avec une certaine, comment dirais ça, avec prudence et transparent et présenter donc ce bilan disons comme vous voyez c`est pas 1 million qu`on va faire la première année ou 2 million là, c`est vraiment au fur et à mesure que nous allons pouvoir augmenter nos revenus. Donc, oui c`est un montant que nous croyons raisonnable mais qui n`est pas cimenté dans le béton.
  344. M. M. MATHIEU: Il y a une chose, si vous me le permettez Madame la Vice-présidente, c`est que le conseil lorsqu`il a établi avec l`association canadienne des radiodiffuseurs, les critères de développement de talent canadien tenu compte de revenus de grosses stations de radio, c`est les stations francophone à Montréal et anglophone à Toronto et tout ça, peut être que dans notre cas, c`est un cas qui est unique et on c`est comparer nous à des stations style CHOW à Brampton, puis CJMR à Mississauga.
  345. Mais je penses que si vous allez puiser dans leurs revenus, vous allez voir qu`ils ont probablement le double, sinon le triple de nos revenus projetés. Alors c`est la raison pour laquelle nous avons été dans cette direction là dans un soucie d`annecter de transparence mais aussi en toute justice pour nous dans tout ça parce que si on s`embarque dans une situation de 27,000$ sa fait un moyen trou dans nos profits ça Madame, et c`est une entreprise commerciale et pour assurer le service qu`on propose, faut être viable, alors il y a une balance à faire entre la contribution au talent canadien et la rentabilité de l`entreprise projetée.
  346. COMMISSAIRE WYLIE : M. Pierre, est-ce que vous verriez par exemple une augmentation qui vous rendrait au 8,000$ pendant le terme le la licence?
  347. M. J.E. PIERRE: Oui, Oui.
  348. COMMISSAIRE WYLIE : Et est-ce que c`est argents là ne pourraient pas être diriger de tel façon que vous verriez une augmentation du contenu canadien produit pour les communautés que vous visez, je crois que vous avez mentionné dans votre demande que vous ne voulez pas un taux élevé de contenu canadien parce que au début il n`y aura pas suffisament de produit, du genre de produit musicale que vous recherchez. Donc je supposes que l`encouragement à la production de ce genre de produit vous faciliterait la tâche tôt ou tard.
  349. M. J.E. PIERRE: Oui, définitivement je comprends le sense de la question et c`est vraiment très essentiel de croire qu`à mesure que nous allons permettre la diffusion de la musique, notre musique si vous voulez, la musique qui nous concerne, mais canadienne. Cette musique là va avoir une popularité et effectivement nous allons en mettre de plus en plus. Effectivement on peut envisager en ce moment là d`avoir une augmentation qu`en aux exigences du CRTC.
  350. COMMISSAIRE WYLIE : Avez-vous examinez par exemple la possibilité de diriger ces contributions là soit musique action ou à toutes autres organismes de façon à ce que se soit, sa contribue à la production du genre de musique de disque que vous voulez diffuser?
  351. M. J.E. PIERRE: Pour être honnête avec vous, non on a pas envisager le cas, et quand j`ai consulter avec mon consultant justement, il m`a dit il y aurait une possibilité, je ne sais pas si Michel va me maintenir.
  352. M. M. MATHIEU: C`est qu`au niveau des développements des talents canadien, comme vous le savez d`ailleurs, l`entente avec la CAB c`est une contribution à musique action ou à toutes organismes qui se qualifies. Alors c`est dans cet esprit là que nous avons offert la contribution de 3,000$. C`est négociable avec le conseil, on veut tout simplement nous se qualifié et de contribué à des organismes qui se qualifies. Alors plutôt que d`aller vers un organisme en Ontario, si on peut le faire vers des gens d`ici et contribué à augmenter les vantailles, des produits canadien offert, je penses qu`on est très d`accord.
  353. Juste en complément de réponse, si vous le permettez, la première et deuxième années, on parle de 20% de contenu canadien, mais la troisième année, on parle de 35%, ce qui rencontre les exigences du conseil pour une radio commerciale francophone ou anglophone un niveau, au niveau du contenu canadien.
  354. COMMISSAIRE WYLIE : Maintenant c`est pas une question de négocier évidemment, c`est une question de planifier qu`elle sont vos buts et si ils sembleront appropriés au conseil. Maintenant les créations orales. Vous avez déposé une demande pour une station ethnique, mais vous avez un peu la définition à l`inverse. Dans le sense que normalement les bloques de programmations ethniques sont selon les créations orales dans ce bloque là, et pas selon la musique, qu`est-ce qui est un peu à l`inverse dans votre cas, ou vous aurez de la musique définitivement ethnique, reconnue comme telle par les communautés que vous visez, mais ou, et je comprends que les histoires d`accent, j`espère que vous me compreniez bien quand je vous parle
  355. M. J.E. PIERRE: Très bien Madame.
  356. COMMISSAIRE WYLIE : Mais et quand même je comprends que si la création orale vise des communautés et (inaudible) correctement ethnique selon nos définitions que les gens s`y reconnaîtront. Mais se sera quand même en français. Je voudrais comprendre mieux qu`elle sera la proportion d`heures de création orale comparer aux heures qui seront dévoués à la musique, par semaine disons?
  357. M. J.E. PIERRE: Je n`ai pas très bien saisi, et j`ai toujours eu, et peut être que cette après midi nous allons éclaircir un peu la chose, parce que dans ma compréhension, qu`en on dit que les 126 heures d`émission régulière seront dévoués à une programmation en français. C`est à dire, bien que le contenu, toutes nos préoccupations seront dirigés vers des communautés ethniques et si il faut relaté surtout ces faits qu`il ne sont pas relaté dans la 'grande presse' de Montréal, etc. que nous nous allons faire mais sa sera fait, par exemple il arrive un incident dans la communauté latino-américaine, qui est peut être un incident banal pour une radio comme CKAC, mais que nous nous allons couvrir parce que nous trouvons là un intérêt particulier.
  358. Cet évenemment là va être couvert en français, ainsi pour les 126 heures. Moi dans ma tête à moi, la programmation est quand même une programmation ethnique mais qu`elle se fasse en français.
  359. COMMISSAIRE WYLIE : Oui, je vous comprends. Je penses que vous avez mal compris ma question. Je comprends très bien que les créations orales peuvent être des créations ethnique bien qu`elles soient en français ou en anglais plutôt que dans une (inaudible) langue ou dans une langue autre que le français, les langues autochtones ou l`anglais. Ce que je vous demandais c`est que, combien d`heures envisagez vous seront des créations orales à peu près, qu`elle sera le ratio entre la musique et les créations orales sur le 126 heures? Quel serait à peu près le ratio?
  360. M. M. MATHIEU: Je ne connais pas, pas dans le formulaire ici qui fait mention de nombre d`heures de créations orales, mais je peux vous dire par expérience, sur une station de radio am, vous pouvez un ratio d`environ 30-40% de la programmation. Je penses qu`on peut dire, Daniel, au minimum de créations orales sont parle de bulletin de nouvelles, si on on parle de commentaires, d`éditoriaux et fin des présentations disques et de reportages comme Jean Ernest l`a mentionné, on peut parler de facilement de 30-40% du 126 heures de créations orales.
  361. Maintenant, on a aussi probablement des émissions d`affaires publiques qui faut tenir compte, évidemment, alors on peut facilement dire 40% du 126 heures, sera un minimum, je dirais de créations orales.
  362. COMMISSAIRE WYLIE : Et M. Pierre, ce 40% des 126 heures sera à 100% ethnique, comme défini bien que en français, et je vois, je vois par exemple à annexe 5 que vous vous expliquez comment les nouvelles se font, etc. et les programmes d`intérêts publiques, etc. et que c`est évident que le conseil a reconnu depuis longtemps que les communautés, qu`on apelle ethnique ou qui ne sont pas, qui sont récemment au Canada, ou qui ont des ancêtres qui sont plus récemment au Canada se reconnaîtront dans cette programmation parce que (inaudible) et que se soit à cause de l`accent du présenteur ou de aussi j`imagines de les propos, des intérêts ou des questions, des préoccupations dont on traites.
  363. Maintenant 40% de 126 heures sa fait quand même plusieurs heures, diviser par 40 sa fait à peu près une cinquantaines d`heures de programmation. Même disons à 45 heures de programmation, c`est beaucoup de programmation, de programmation orale.
  364. Vous nous avez dit à la partie 1 à la page 5 qu`y s`agira de cinq employés à la station et nous nous inquiétons évidemment souvent des capacités des requérantes de vraiment mettre en oeuvre leurs projet de la façon qu`il nous a été présenté. À la lettre de l`ACUNE que nous avons reçu, la réponse de la lettre de l`ACUNE que nous avons reçu de vous à la page 2, vous prévoyez aussi une très petite entreprise avec pas plus que cinq employés et je voudrais bien que vous m`expliquiez comment ces cinq employés pourront s`occuper de la technique bien que M. Robert nous a expliquer juste qu`à quel point aujourd`hui on peut automatisé et faire plus d`une chose à la fois.
  365. Il reste quand même que il faut donner les nouvelles, vous les reçevrez pas facilement puisqu`elles vont, vous ne pourrez pas utiliser je suppose les nouvelles canadiennes qu`on reçoit et qu`on lis puisqu`elles vont visés une certaine communauté. Vous allez les choisirs différemment. Comment cinq employés pourront-ils produirent une quarantaine d`heures ou plus de créations orales intéressantes et variées qui visent trois communautés différentes.
  366. M. D. ROBERT : Si vous permettez, je pourrais peut-être parler un petit peu de l`expérience qu`on a connu avec des gens qui ont fait une radio sur Internet, radio francophone mondiale. Il y a plus de 40 endroits dans le monde ou on peut aller chercher des nouvelles en français, et se sont des bulletins électroniques. Alors, juste avec ces éléments là, on peut facilement compter un 5% à 10% de programmation en provenance de la francophonie mondiale un petit peu partout et ces éléments là peuvent être utilisés très facilement par
  367. COMMISSAIRE WYLIE : Alors voilà pour les nouvelles. Quel genre de programmation, M. Pierre, produisez vous à la station CHAA.
  368. M. J.E. PIERRE: La programmation qu`on trouve de façon régulière par la programmation ethnique qui est surtout la fin de semaine mais en semaine bon c`est la programmation régulière qu`on trouve dans les stations de radio commerciale.
  369. COMMISSAIRE WYLIE : Est-ce que c`est plutôt de la programmation d`affaires publiques et de question?
  370. M. J.E. PIERRE: À CHAA il n`y a pas d`affaires publiques comme telle. Il y en avait mais n`y en plus aujourd`hui.
  371. COMMISSAIRE WYLIE : Mais c`est pas simplement une question d`introduire de la musique, il y a plus que ça.
  372. M. J.E. PIERRE: Il y a plus que ça.
  373. COMMISSAIRE WYLIE : Donc vous avez une certaine expérience à la production de contenu orale à la radio.
  374. M. J.E. PIERRE: Oui
  375. COMMISSAIRE WYLIE : Alors peut-être que vous vous pouvez nous expliquer comment autre que les nouvelles vous allez réussir avec cinq employés à gérer cette station. Allez vous y être vous à plein-temps.
  376. M. J.E. PIERRE: Oui, parce que je vous ai dis tout à l`heure que je ne laisserai pas la profession d`avocat pour me consacrer à 100%, mais par contre oui je vais devoir diminuer sur mon temps de pratique pour faire un peu plus et beaucoup plus de radio et je vais contribuer pour beaucoup à faire de la programmation et effectivement avec le programme que j`ai, je peux même me permettre de faire de la programmation à partir de chez moi et l`envoyer et intervernir à n`importe quel moment à la radio qui sera à Montréal, moi j`habite à Longueuil et le système est déjà installer, donc il suffit que je veule intervenir à quelque soit l`heure que je puisse le faire effectivement parce qu`on ne veut pas dès la première année nous embarquer dans une entreprise qui n`aura pas un avenir viable économiquement si on commence à engager dix, quinze employés.
  377. Nous voulons tout simplement commencé avec ce qui est raisonnable et effectivement peut-être la deuxième, la troisième année augmenter le nombre d`employés si il le faut.
  378. M. M. MATHIEU: En complément de réponse, Madame Wylie, s`il vous plaît, la sation CKYQ de (inaudible) qui est automatisé a des émission qui sont en temps directe des discotèques qui partent automatiquement le vendredi et le samedi soir grâce au système d`automation. Le propriétaire de la station peut diffuser directement de chez lui grâce à une ligne téléphonique dans le cas où il y aurait par exemple une situation où les gens ne peuvent pas boire l`eau ou quelque chose du genre là.
  379. Enfin on est très polyvalent aujourd`hui et grâce au système d`information on peut faire beaucoup de choses qui n`étaient pas possible il y a quelques années.
  380. COMMISSAIRE WYLIE : Je peux vous compter rénumérer des cinq employés en question.
  381. M. J.E. PIERRE: Oui, évidemment oui.
  382. COMMISSAIRE WYLIE : Se sont des gens qui seront salarié et aussi en complément peut-être me dire est-ce que vous avez l`intention d`utiliser aussi des bénévoles?
  383. M. J.E. PIERRE: Normalement une station de radio commerciale n`a pas le droit, ça c`était bien entendu, on a pas le droit d`utiliser des bénévoles. Cependant il y a des commercants comme mon ami Michel Mathieu qui nous a parler de style, je crois qu`il connais très bien qui est un très bon animateur, mais qui est aussi dans les affaires qui se propose déjà de faire des échanges avec la station.
  384. COMMISSAIRE WYLIE : Et des gens à temps partiel possiblement.
  385. M. J.E. PIERRE: Des gens à temps partiel.
  386. COMMISSAIRE WYLIE : Et ou prenez vous cette restriction qu`on ne peut pas utiliser des bénévoles?
  387. M. J.E. PIERRE: Ça se peut j`ai entendu, il me semble que certain, qu`une certaine station a des difficultés commerciales avec le SISQ.
  388. M. M. MATHIEU: Oui Madame, le code du travail, je m`excuse je devrais m`absenter pour trois minutes, est-ce qu`on pourraient prendre une petite pose de trois minutes s`il vous plaît?
  389. COMMISSAIRE WYLIE : Oui, bien sur.
  390. M. M. MATHIEU: Merci, vous êtes gentille.
  391. LA PRÉSIDENTE : Vous êtes prêt à recommencer maintenant.
  392. M. M. MATHIEU: Je vous remercie, je suis désolé. M. Brown s`en vient, on peut continuer je crois.
  393. COMMISSAIRE WYLIE : Nous parlions, je crois d`employés, de bénévoles et d`employés à temps partiel. Donc il y aura cinq employés rénumérer et cinq sa vous incluera?
  394. M. M. MATHIEU: Non, je crois que c`est cinq employés en plus de Me Pierre.
  395. COMMISSAIRE WYLIE : En plus de Me Pierre.
  396. M. M. MATHIEU: Et voilà.
  397. COMMISSAIRE WYLIE : Mantenant, si j`examine, j`ai examiner un peu votre grille horaire et évidemment comme nous discutions, sa exige quand même beaucoup de préparation au niveau de la production, de l`animation de la rédaction, etc. Je comprends que les facilités techniques sont beaucoup mieux aiguisés maintenant et rendre la tâche plus facile, mais il faut quand même y mettre un effort d`organisation, de rédaction pour avoir une programmation intéressante, surtout quand sa vise des communautés particulières. Et si je regarde vos projections financières qui s`élèvent, les dépenses s`élèvent à 188,000$ la première année, jusqu`à 207,000$ la deuxième année.
  398. Si vous regardez ce tableau que vous nous avez présenter M. Pierre au poste 91 de la partie 1, vous pouvez m`expliquer ou se situe les salaires. Vous avez ici des dépenses de programmation, des dépenses de services techniques, des dépenses de ventes publicités et promotions et des dépenses d`administration et général. Est-ce que on retrouverait ces salaires là dans les ces postes en question?
  399. M. M. MATHIEU: Si vous me permettez Madame, j`aimerais répondre à cette question parce que j`ai préparer de concert avec Me Pierre cette partie de la demande suite à mon expérience de gestion dans les stations de radio. Alors le 92,000$ c`est carrémment des salaires et des dépenses en programmation, les salaires et 3.5% à la (inaudible). Le 3,000$ qu'on retrouve en développement canadien évidemment on a mis 5,000$ pour le département technique et la vente publicité, promotion ça c`est le salaire et les dépenses de ventes, c`est à dire environ 15-20% des revenus qui vont pour les ventes publicités, commission de vendeures et les choses comme ça. Vous allez des animateurs qui animent des émissions mais qui le font pour une commission légèrement plus élevée qu`un vendeure conventionel.
  400. On cette formulaire là, moi je l`ai vécu à CHRS avec certains animateurs country qui animaient, qui produisaient une émission, qui allaient la vendre le temps d`antenne et qui étaient payés à commissions. Et ensuite de ça vous avez les dépenses administration général, ce qui comprend Me Pierre et d`autres dépenses reliés à l`administration. Alors je crois, j`espère en tout cas que sa répond à votre question.
  401. COMMISSAIRE WYLIE : M. Pierre expliquer moi dans votre, dans votre expérience antérieur soit en Haïtie ou au Canada, est-ce que vous avez eu de l`expérience en administration, dans la gestion d`une station ou surtout est-ce que ça été au micro, dans la préparation et la rédaction d`émission?
  402. M. J.E. PIERRE: Sa été les deux, j`ai eu une période ou j`étais directeur de la programmation en Haïtie, tout jeune d`ailleurs, j`ai fait ça dans une situation extremement difficile. Mais plus de façon, de façon plus spécifique ici à CHMF, nous avons connus une période d`extrème difficulté alors que j`étais président du conseil d`administration et nous avons dû prendre la station sans directeur parce que nous avions pas les moyens de payer un directeur, directeur général.
  403. Évidemment il n`y avait pas directeur de programmation non plus et sous mon administration je peux vous dire sans me venter qu`on a peut, vraiment monter la station, remettre la station sur les railles et on même plus s`acheter notre maison à nous de radio rive-sud et aujourd`hui que je suis plus président du conseil d`administration, il y a vraiment quelque chose qui fonction, grâce à l`appuis que j`ai donné évidemment avec toute un conseil d`administration qui était vraiment prêt à faire ce travail là.
  404. Donc j`ai les expériences dans les deux parties, que ce soit au micro, que ce soit aussi dans l`administration d`une station de radio sans compter que pour mes affaires personnels, je suis, seul maître abord, c`est moi qui administre mon bureau je vous assure Madame, un bureau d`avocat à gérer c`est extrèmement difficile quand il faut faire les facturations de l`aide juridique, quand il faut en plus facturer des clients au privé, alors j`ai fait ça, sa fait dix ans.
  1. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Maintenant, je voudrais examiner avec vous vos revenus.
  2. Il est évident qu'il y a des intervenants, même si ce n'est pas la période d'intervention encore, mais qui se plaignent qu'il n'y a pas de place dans le marché pour une station telle que celle que vous proposez, et vous êtes aussi au courant que le Conseil examine habituellement quel serait l'effet probable, la faisabilité d'un projet d'abord -- est-ce que la requérante pourra mettre en oeuvre sa proposition et offrir de la diversité et de la qualité et est-ce qu'il y aura un effet indue sur les stations qui existent déjà, de telle façon que possiblement les communautés en question seront moins bien desservies plus que mieux desservies.
  3. Alors, voilà l'esprit dans lequel je pose mes questions.
  4. Vous considérez être rentable dès la première année et que vos revenus soient de $230,000 à $280,000, si on va de l'année un à l'année huit. Et vous nous dites à la lettre de lacune -- à la réponse à la lettre de lacune à la page 2, que vous comptez récupérer 61.43 pour-cent de vos futurs annonceurs seront des annonceurs qui dépensent des argents additionnels. C'est des nouvelles recettes.
  5. M. J.E. PIERRE: Oui, oui, des annonceurs, oui.
  6. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Et que 39 pour-cent de votre budget proviendra, par exemple, d'annonceurs qui annoncent déjà, surtout dans les stations qui offrent déjà de la programmation vers certaines des communautés que vous allez desservir. Il s'agit de CHAA, CIBL-5 et CFMB.
  7. M. J.E. PIERRE: Oui.
  8. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Et que 39 pour-cent de vos revenus proviendront d'annonceurs qui annoncent déjà sur ces stations, ce qui est 39 pour-cent de $230,000, voilà?
  9. M. J.E. PIERRE: Oui.
  10. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Et qui est à peu près quoi, $90,000?
  11. M. J.E. PIERRE: A peu près.
  12. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Qui serait récupéré des annonceurs qui annoncent déjà dans ces autres stations. Mais vous nous dites que ces annonceurs-là ne continueront à dépenser autant d'argent dans les stations qui existent même si vous pouvez récupérer $90,000 dès la première année de ces mêmes annonceurs. Je comprends bien?
  13. M. J.E. PIERRE: Évidemment, je n'ai pas fait les chiffres de façon si précise que vous.
  14. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Ah oui, vous les avez faits.
  15. M. J.E. PIERRE: Mais non, mais quand on parle de ---
  16. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: A la page 2, pour qu'on se comprenne bien ---
  17. M. J.E. PIERRE: Oui.
  18. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: A la page 2, réponse de lacune, vous dites: "38.37 pour-cent de nos futurs annonceurs annoncent déjà sur la plupart des stations de radio communautaire du milieu, mais n'entendent pas diminuer leurs annonces à ces radios parce qu'ils annonceront chez nous." Alors, j'ai compris que vous pourriez récupérer $90,000 de ces mêmes annonceurs, sans autant enlever de la publicité des quatre stations en question. Est-ce que je comprends mal?
  19. M. J.E. PIERRE: Je pense que vous comprenez très bien. Nous nous fions sur notre étude de marché, qui est présentée avec la demande, et effectivement, nous avons un contact direct aussi avec les annonceurs, qui ont donné leur accord à ce projet, qui ont appuyé le projet et qui l'ont dit eux-mêmes, effectivement, dans des lettres signées. Et c'est surtout cette étude de marché que nous avons présentée à chacun des radiodiffuseurs avec lesquels nous pourrions être en compétition et qui les a soulagés, pour la plupart. Je parle de CFMB. Quand ils ont vu cette étude, ils nous ont même dit que s'ils n'interviennent pas, il faut considérer cette non-intervention comme étant un appui. Effectivement, ils n'ont pas intervenu. Ils ont compris qu'effectivement il y a de la place pour nous et que oui, il y a des annonceurs qui peuvent annoncer à toutes les stations, puisque c'est seulement à des annonces qui se font dans ces communautés-là seulement la fin de semaine.
  20. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Et c'est tout ou presque entièrement la communauté haïtienne?
  21. M. J.E. PIERRE: C'est surtout parce que c'est la communauté que je connais, et c'est pour ça qu'on aura besoin, effectivement, d'avoir ce comité-là qui va pouvoir aller dans les autres communautés beaucoup mieux et beaucoup plus que nous avec des gens autre que haïtiens.
  22. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Non, je regarde ---
  23. M. M. MATHIEU: Est-ce que vous me permettez un petit complément de réponse?
  24. C'est que les commerçants désirent appuyer des services radiophoniques dans leur communauté, et c'est dans cet esprit-là qu'ils ont été approchés et qu'ils nous ont garanti qu'ils ne cancelleraient pas leur publicité sur des services existants.
  25. Parce que ce qu'on ne veut pas nous c'est d'enlever les émissions ailleurs. On veut ajouter le service d'onde. L'enquête a été faite dans cet esprit-là et ces gens-là nous ont dit qu'il n'y avait pas de problème de budget à annoncer chez nous, qu'ils n'étaient pas obligés de canceller leur publicité sur les services existants, parce qu'on rejoind deux publics différents. Dalleurs, on n'est pas encore entré dans ce sujet-là, mais on rejoind un groupe d'âge différent. Notre public, nous, va être beaucoup plus jeune que ce qui est offert présentement, et ça j'aimerais que Me Pierre puisse élaborer là-dessus.
  26. Alors, dans cet esprit-là, vu que les commerçants, qui vivent justement avec les haïtiens ou les latinos ou les africains, veulent rejoindre le maximum de monde possible. C'est dans cet esprit-là qu'ils vont annoncer chez nous, tout en continuant leur publicité ailleurs. Alors, on ne créera pas d'impact.
  27. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Monsieur Pierre, il s'agit surtout de la communauté haïtienne? Vous aviez commencé à me dire qu'il y avait aussi -- on dit dans l'étude, je crois, que CFMB vise surtout la communauté grecque et italienne. Est-ce que ces autres stations-là, CHAA, CIBL-5 desservent, par exemple, les latinos-américains ou si c'est surtout les haïtiens?
  28. M. J.E. PIERRE: CHAA a une émission latino-américaine, je vous ai dit, le samedi soir. CHAA a une émission -- même deux émissions haïtiennes. Moi, mon émission est le dimanche matin et l'émission évangélique aussi. Oui. Donc, on parle d'émissions un peu partout dans les stations de radio communautaire.
  29. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Et qui viseraient possiblement les trois communautés que vous visez?
  30. M. J.E. PIERRE: Qui visent les trois communautés, effectivement.
  31. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Maintenant, dans cette étude de marché de CHB, à la page 6, on donne des chiffres très précis des revenus de ces quatre stations-là, pour en arriver à une conclusion que ce ne sera que quatre pour-cent du revenu total annuel de ces quatre stations-là qui serait affecté.
  32. M. J.E. PIERRE: Quatre pour-cent?
  33. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Comment -- je vois ici des revenus spécifiques pour les quatre stations, et d'après les calculs, l'étude conclut qu'il n'y aura pas de sérieux impact négatif parce que, de toute façon, en moyenne, moins que quatre pour-cent du revenu total annuel de ces postes provient des émissions ayant le même auditoire cible.
  34. Comment en est-on arrivé à savoir exactement les montants d'argent qui sont récupérés par ces quatre stations?
  35. M. M. MATHIEU: Ca vient, Madame Wylie, dans les mêmes -- dans le même esprit que je vous ai mentionné tantôt. C'est que l'étude a été faite. Les commerçants ont été interrogés et les commerçants ont mentionné, effectivement, qu'ils n'avaient pas l'intention de retirer leur publicité là où ils en ---
  36. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Non, ce n'est pas ma question.
  37. Ma question est comment est-ce qu'on a pu déterminer combien d'argent ces stations-là reçoivent, de quelle communauté, pour en arriver à ces conclusions?
  38. M. J.E. PIERRE: En y allant directement, madame, et en demandant, par exemple, à CHAMF, ils nous ont donné les montants. Moi, je sais ce que j'apporte à Radio Rive-Sud et la communauté -- les haïtiens qui font l'émission évangélique. J'ai fait la même chose à CIBL, à 5 FM. Moi-même, j'ai fourni ces chiffres-là.
  39. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Et ils vous ont fourni ces chiffres même s'ils interviennent contre l'implantation de votre station?
  40. M. J.E. PIERRE: Ils ont ---
  41. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Ou parce qu'ils voulaient intervenir?
  42. M. J.E. PIERRE: Au moment où on nous a fourni ces chiffres-là, dalleurs, il faut noter qu'il n'y a que 5-FM à faire une intervention contre sur les quatre. CHAA, au contraire, a appuyé l'étude, appuyé la demande et les autres n'ont pas fait d'intervention comme telle. Et même dans le cas de 5-FM, nous avons l'appui de l'équipe haïtienne de Radio Centre-ville.
  43. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Et c'est pourquoi vous avez pu obtenir des chiffres assez précis?
  44. M. J.E. PIERRE: Oui.
  45. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Et comment est-ce qu'on a conclus que la source primaire de ces radiodiffuseurs communautaires est du financement qui est autre que de la publicité directe? Je ne crois pas que ce sont les chiffres que nous avons, nous, que leurs revenus proviendraient de sources -- en majorité, de sources autres que la publicité.
  46. M. J.E. PIERRE: Aux radios communautaires, si on parle de radio communautaire essentiellement, peut-être à l'exception de CFMB ici, qui a quand même ---
  47. M. M. MATHIEU: CFMB est une radio commerciale.
  48. M. J.E. PIERRE: Bon, alors ---
  49. M. M. MATHIEU: Je crois qu'il faut mentionner que les radios communautaires, la plupart d'entre eux organisent des bingos. Ils ont des radiothons. Ils ont des subventions, et eux on accès à du travail bénévole ou à des employés subventionnés, ce qui n'est pas le cas pour une radio commerciale.
  50. Alors, malgré que le Conseil a dérèglementé et permet aux radios communautaires de diffuser autant de publicité qu'ils le désirent, je pense que tout le monde va être d'accord pour dire que ce n'est pas la source principale de leurs revenus, qu'une radio communautaire, de par sa programmation et sa propriété, a d'autres sources de revenu et ne peut pas compter que sur des commerciaux.
  51. Dalleurs, j'aimerais préciser, si on regard les interventions reçues -- et les interventions reçues, on va y revenir tantôt, si vous le permettez -- je pense qu'il n'y a pas de station qui a mentionné qui souffrirait de perte de revenus par notre venue en ondes. Ils ont mentionné que eux faisaient des émissions pour des ethnies, et ça, j'aimerais y revenir peut-être, si vous me le permettez, en réponse aux interventions.
  52. M. J.E. PIERRE: Alors, j'ajouterais, madame, que d'expérience, il y a des commerçants -- parce que nous faisons affaire avec ces même gens-là aussi -- qui sont sur une liste d'attente pour certaines stations de radio afin de mettre de la publicité à l'intérieur de ces stations de radio communautaire. Il y a un besoin, alors qu'ils doivent attendre, ou bien c'est une question d'organisation de ces radios communautaires étant donné, comme on a dit, qu'ils ont d'autres sources -- qu'elles ont d'autres sources de revenus, ou bien, je ne sais pas, il y a de la négligence, mais il y a effectivement des commerçants de cette communauté-là qui sont sur une liste d'attente, qui attendent ou qui apellent pour faire de la publicité, qui n'ont pas les moyens d'annoncer sur ces stations de radio. Et je vous donne ma parole, c'est vrai. C'est la vérité.
  53. M. M. MATHIEU: Et moi, en tant que radiodiffuseur, Madame Wylie, j'ai vécu des situations où les radios communautaires, ou même certaines radios commerciales, les producteurs, et Me Pierre l'a dit tantôt, l'argent que lui apporte -- c'est-à-dire que les producteurs de ces émissions-là vendent leurs commerciaux. Alors, vous avez beaucoup de producteurs qui, eux, vont vendre le stricte nécessaire pour rester en ondes. Ce qu'ils veulent c'est une émission et être en ondes.
  54. Alors, peut-être que ces radios-là présentement perdent des revenus parce que, justement, la personne qui produit l'émission ne fait peut-être pas les efforts nécessaires pour aller chercher le maximum de publicité.
  55. Nous, on va être là. Évidemment, on va être aggressifs parce qu'on est commercial. On a un produit, et ce produit-là on va aller l'offrir et le vendre. Alors, c'est la raison pour laquelle on arrive à cette conclusion-là.
  56. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Est-ce que vous avez l'intention, justement, de faire des ententes avec des producteurs autres que vos employés pour l'utilisation du temps d'antenne, soit sur base de contrats ou de vente de temps d'antenne à des tierces parties qui ne sont pas vos employés?
  57. M. J.E. PIERRE: Je dois vous dire que depuis le temps qu'on en parle à la radio, qu'on parle, justement, de ce projet à la radio à mon émission, j'ai beaucoup d'offres dans ce sens-là.
  58. J'ai un peu de réticence compte tenu de l'expérience qui se vie ailleurs dans certaines stations dans des circonstances semblables. Je ne ferme pas la porte à des possibilités d'échanges de cet ordre-là, cependant, il y a beaucoup, beaucoup de problèmes que nous avons vécu à CHMF et je sais qu'il y a énormément de problèmes dans d'autres stations ailleurs. Donc, il faut être vraiment -- il faut faire attention.
  59. M. M. MATHIEU: Si vous me permettez encore une fois, Madame la vice-présidente, c'est la responsabilité du détenteur de la licence. C'est lui qui a la responsabilité vis-à-vis du Conseil pour la programmation et la gestion, la diffusion de la station de radio.
  60. Alors, dans cet esprit-là, je crois qu'il est préférable qu'un gestionnaire de station de radio prenne des ententes style, "Bon, bien, si tu me rentre pour tant de dollars, je te permet de faire une émission, mais tu es mon employé.", plutôt que de "farming out", comme on dit. Excusez mon expression.
  61. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Certains contrats et être bien encadrés.
  62. M. M. MATHIEU: Mon expérience, et même bien encadré, on a un moins bon contrat. En tant que gestionnaire, moi, je suis pas fort là-dessus. J'ai vécu de mauvaises expériences.
  63. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Ma question n'était pas négative, parce que je sais que ça se fait et que ça peut se faire dans un encadrement où le titulaire reste responsible de la programmation, mais que ça peut fonctionner à attirer des gens que vous ne pourriez peut-être pas garder comme employés, mais qui peuvent vous offrir la programmation de qualité à contrat.
  64. M. J.E. PIERRE: Je vous -- parce que mon ami, Paul F. Brown, qui est éditeur et qui justement m'en a parlé tout à l'heure à peu près dans ce sens-là, mais je vous dis, à part des gens aussi sérieux comme Paul, comme Steve, je crois, des gens qui sont en affaire et qui sont des professionnels, j'ai des réticences.
  65. Paul?
  66. M. P. BROWN: A propos de quoi?
  67. M. J.E. PIERRE: A propos des échangeries, production d'émissions versus un échange de publicité, genre.
  68. M. P. BROWN: J'ai ---
  69. M. J.E. PIERRE: Il n'entendait pas. Okay. On va continuer. Merci.
  70. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Mais vous comprenez, nous savons que c'est très courant et que c'est souvent une façon bien encadrée qui peut permettre quand même de produire de la programmation intéressante sans avoir un complément d'employés aussi élevé.
  71. M. M. MATHIEU: Je pense, si vous le permettez, que la réponse est la suivante. C'est qu'on est ouvert à ça pas plus qu'il faut, mais avec une grande surveillance de la part de la gestionnaire de l'entreprise et non pas quelque chose qui serait disponible "at large".
  72. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Monsieur Robert, probablement que ces questions seront pour vous, pour quiconque veut y répondre.
  73. Est-ce que vous vous inquiétez de la qualité ou du fait que vous allez quand même avoir une station à 60 pour-cent musique sur la bande AM? Est-ce que cette bande-là, que je comprends bien, n'est pas utilisée beaucoup? Peut-être qu'il y en a deux ou trois en Amérique, je crois? Est-ce que la qualité est quand même la qualité AM plutôt que FM?
  74. MR. D. ROBERT: Ce serait Monsieur Mathieu, parce que moi c'est l'informatique.
  75. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Ah bon. Allez-y, Monsieur Mathieu.
  76. M. M. MATHIEU: J'aimerais vous mentionner ceci. Moi, je suis pas inquiet du tout, premièrement. L'expérience de CJMS Country que j'ai vécue, au début ça allait bien parce qu'on donnait de la musique country, ce que les gens n'ont pas, ce qu'ils veulent. Et que ce soit AM ou FM, ils vont venir l'écouter.
  77. L'expérience de 990 Hits à Montréal il y a quelques années, quand CKGM est devenu CHTX, et puis ils avaient une station de radio pour les jeunes, les adolescents qui était du rap, tous les jeunes écoutaient ça parce qu'ils la trouvaient pas ailleurs la musique. Bon, eux ont changé parce qu'ils n'étaient pas capables de vendre la publicité des jeunes, mais nous, on va rejoindre notre monde. On a un public cible. Je cible, on cible certaines personnes. On leur donne un service. Et moi je peux vous assurer, et puis je pense que j'ai quand même une bonne réputation, et Daniel pourra commenter là-dessus, pour donner un bon son à une station AM, il faut pas assumer, parce qu'on est AM, que le son va être pourri. Il y a moyen d'ajuster des émetteurs et des équipements qui sont disponibles, des processeurs audio. On n'est pas en stéréo, c'est vrai, mais on peut avoir un bon son de haute qualité. Et justement, je suis content que vous demandez ça, parce qu'avec l'antenne qu'on utilise, on va être au coeur de notre région desservie. Ca veut dire qu'on va offrir un très, très bon signal à nos auditeurs et ça va nous permettre d'offrir un son, parce que lorsque le signal est bon, on peut moduler le signal en question et offrir un signal de haute qualité, un produit de haute qualité.
  78. Alors, c'est sûr que le son du FM est supérieur. Ca, je le reconnais. Mais il n'y a plus de bandes FM à Montréal. Il faut en faire notre deuil. Si on veut faire quelque chose à Montréal, c'est une fréquence AM, et je pense que ces fréquences-là, justement, on a pris le 1610 pour pas avoir d'interférence le soir, la nuit, et tout ça. Ces fréquences-là sont -- au Canada, il y a juste une station de faible puissance à l'aéroport d'Ottawa, que vous avez autorisée récemment, mais il n'y a pas personne d'autre au Canada actuellement qui les utilise. Aux États-Unis on a commencé à les utiliser, mais il faut comprendre que la manière que l'entente internationale est faite, et je pense que c'est brillant, les fréquences pairs sont au Canada et 1620 va aux États -- non, impair c'est au Canada, c'est ça -- 1610 est au Canada; 1620 est aux États, et ainsi de suite, 1630 aux États, 1640 au Canada, ainsi de suite. Alors, ça élimine les problèmes d'interférence le soir et la nuit.
  79. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Ce qui m'aide à poser ma question suivante.
  80. Le Conseil, habituellement, se penche sur la question de la maximisation de l'utilisation de la fréquence en question. Bien que, voilà, c'est une nouvelle bande, est-ce que selon les cartes de contour que vous nous avez fournies, le contour nocturne sera de 7.1 millivolt par mètre. Alors, il y aura une partie de la zone que vous comptez desservir qui ne sera pas couverte la nuit, par exemple, la partie sud-ouest de l'Île de Montréal.
  81. M. M. MATHIEU: Si vous me permettez, Madame Wylie.
  82. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Et la partie ouest de la ville de Laval et une partie des villes de Longueil et de St-Lambert sur le contour nocturne.
  83. Avez-vous pensé, par exemple, à résoudre ce problème de couverture, j'imagine ---
  84. M. M. MATHIEU: C'est que le problème n'existe pas, et voici pourquoi. La limitation ---
  85. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Il n'est que sur la carte?
  86. M. M. MATHIEU: Oui, et je vous explique pourquoi, justement parce que ce que je viens de vous dire. C'est que ces fréquences-là ont été alloties en assumant une interférence de nuit qui requière un signal de 7 millivolt au mètre pour contrer l'interférence. Mais comme il n'y a pas personne qui les utilise, il n'y a pas d'interférence et on ne prévoit pas qu'il y aura de l'interférence sur ces fréquences-là vant de nombreuses années.
  87. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Et il n'y a pas de problème d'interférence de l'utilisation de la bande AM normale, comme on la connaît.
  88. M. M. MATHIEU: Alors, voici, Madame Wylie, je vais essayer de ---
  89. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Seulement ---
  90. M. M. MATHIEU: Sur la band AM normale, vous avez plusieurs stations qui partagent les fréquences. Si on parle, par exemple, de la fréquence 1240 ---
  91. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Je vous demandais, est-ce que l'utilisastion de cette bande-là ---
  92. M. M. MATHIEU: Oui, la nouvelle bande.
  93. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: --- doit s'inquiéter d'interférence avec l'utilisation de la bande AM comme on la connaît ou si c'est complètement discret l'un et l'autre?
  1. M. M. MATHIEU: Bien, c'est-à-dire que -- je vais essayer de répondre le plus simplement possible. C'est-à-dire que la seule limitation qu'on a c'est qu'on a un problème à utiliser une de ces fréquences-là qui serait 910 kilohertz. Je vous donne un exemple. La fréquence 1640 ne pourra pas être utilisée à Montréeal parce que si vous prenez la fréquence de CKAC à 730, vous ajoutez le 910 kilohertz, vous tombez à 1640. Ca veut dire que si vous aviez une station à 1640 et CKAC sur le même territoire, il se pourrait que si les radios sont mal ajustées, que le 1640 va nuire à CKAC et/ou à des stations entre les deux fréquences. Ca ne s'applique pas à 1610. On n'a aucun problème avec ça, et c'est la seule restriction, parce que toute autre station qui est dans la bande AM à Montréal n'ira pas nuire en haut de 1600, parce qu'il n'y a pas de station dans ces fréquences-là, alors on ne subit pas d'interférence.
  2. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Et s'il y en avait, qu'elle serait la possibilité et les coûts d'augmenter à la puissance maximale permise dans cette bande qui serait de 10 kilowatt?
  3. M. M. MATHIEU: La puissance maximale permise est de 10 kilowatt le jour. La nuit elle est de 1000 watt en direction des États-Unis. Alors, ça serait sûrement d'aller installer un site d'émissions sur la rive sud de Montréal avec des tours émettrices qui protègent les États-Unis et qui donnent un signal théoriquement plus fort à la région de Montréal.
  4. Mais je dois vous dire ceci, j'ai regardé ça avec M. Doug MacCauley, ingénieur, et dans mes recommandations à Me Pierre, j'ai mentionné que si on s'en allait dans un site dans le coin de Longueil, St-Hubert, avec deux tours directionnelles à 10,000 watts, on n'aura pas un signal plus fort chez nos auditeurs que ce qu'on a maintenant avec le 1,000 watt à cause de la distance.
  5. Vous comprenez, présentement nous sommes chez nos gens, au coeur de nos gens. Si on recule, notre signal va baisser. Alors c'est pas rentable de s'éloigner.
  6. Quant à vos préoccupations pour la limitation de nuit de 7,1, je pense qu'on en a pour un bon 10-15 ans avant de la subir, si on la subit. Et si on la subit, il y a certainement des augmentations de puissance ou des changements technologiques qui peuvent être apportés à ce moment-là.
  7. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Mais vous êtes d'avis qu'en ce moment la couverture réelle la nuit atteindra les communautés que vous visez, parce que surtout chez les jeunes, il y aura une écoute le soir aussi, la nuit aussi?
  8. M. M. MATHIEU: Les jeunes sont beaucoup plus exigents que dans mon temps.
  9. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Voilà pourquoi je pose la question.
  10. M. M. MATHIEU: Dans mon temps on écoutait la bande de radio AM avec des processeurs audio qui étaient à large bande. Donc, ça sonnait un petit peu comme ça. Aujourd'hui on a des processeurs audio multi-bandes et qui donnent un son nettement supérieur. Alors, compte tenu de ça, je pense qu'on va offrir un service de qualité.
  11. Mais c'est vrai, votre question est pertinente, à savoir, qu'est-ce qui arrive s'il y a de l'interférence de nuit? Qu'est-ce qui arrive aux jeunes et qu'est-ce qui arrive également avec la migration des gens qui pourraient sortir du territoire? On a tout regardé ça et on s'est dit, avant de commencer à courir, on va apprendre à marcher. Un va monter une station à 1610 et puis on va faire un succès avec ça. Il y a d'autres fréquences AM qui peuvent être utilisées qui ne sont même pas considérées. Il y a une belle fréquence présentement qui dort à Montréal qui peut être utilisée, 50,000 watts et puis ---
  12. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Avec des immobilisations de $80,000?
  13. M. M. MATHIEU: Non, ces fréquences-là, madame, coûteraient pas mal plus cher que ça. C'est pour ça qu'on est allé dans cette direction-là, c'est pour se permettre -- parce que ce projet-là, madame, à $80,000, il est très possible, mais à $200,000, je pense que Me Pierre va dire, "On oublie ça." Et c'est pour ça qu'on est devant vous aujourd'hui sur le 1610 avec l'antenne Valcom et le 1000 watts.
  14. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Et je comprends bien que $80,000 ça couvre vos immobilisations ---
  15. M. M. MATHIEU: Oui.
  16. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: --- selon la demande déposée?
  17. M. M. MATHIEU: Absolument.
  18. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Quelle est l'accèssibilité des récepteurs capables de recevoir cette bande-là? Est-ce que toutes les radios maintenant achetées, même les radios pas dispendieuses, et cetera, peuvent capter cette bande?
  19. M. M. MATHIEU: Très bonne question. Pourquoi le 1610? Pourquoi pas le 1650? Pourquoi pas le 1650? Pourquoi pas le 1690?
  20. Depuis une vingtaine d'années environ que ces fréquences-là existent, la plupart -- je dirais que tous les manufacturiers -- moi, ça fait trois ou quatre autos que j'ai depuis ce temps-là et puis ils vont dans ces bandes-là. Les nouveaux appareils de radio qu'on se procure aujourd'hui vont dans cette bande-là. Moi, j'ai un appareil Sony portatif, pas de problème. J'ai un appareil Super Radio de GE, pas de problème. Mais les anciens appareils de radio, vous avez 100 pour-cent raison, sauf que les anciens appareils de radio qui devaient arrêter à 1600 kilociques. Il y en a aucun qui arrête à 1600 kilociques. Ils débordent. Alors, on est assuré avec notre 1610 de rejoindre tout le monde. C'est la raison pour laquelle on veut le 1610.
  21. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Même avec une petite radio réveil-matin ---
  22. M. M. MATHIEU: Oui.
  23. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: --- qui a été achetée il y a cinq ans ---
  24. M. M. MATHIEU: Oui.
  25. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Parce que vous êtes tout à fait au bord de la bande.
  26. M. M. MATHIEU: Et voilà.
  27. Et dalleurs, moi j'ai vécu une expérience, Madame Wylie, en 1968 à CFGL Laval. Ca été mon premier travail comme directeur technique d'une station de radio. À l'époque, les radios FM européens arrêtaient à 104 et il y avait beaucoup de gens qui avaient des radios Normandy, Telefunken, Brown et autres, et on les réajustait. Ils nous appellaient et puis moi j'allais faire l'ajustement. On a peut-être ajusté, sur l'espace de deux ans, 300 ou 400. Alors, s'il faut faire ça, on le fera. Mais on a un public captif. Alors, c'est beaucoup plus facile pour nous de rejoindre ces gens-là et de s'ajuster avec ces gens-là que si on était une station de nouvelles comme CKAC ou quelque chose, qui lui est une radio commerciale "at large" où les gens disent, "Si on prend pas ce poste-là, on écoute un autre."
  28. Tandis que nous, quelque part dans notre demande on en fait état. Il y a des gens qui font des contorsions avec un appareil de radio pour capter CHAA, qui n'a que 100 watts à Longueil. Les gens à Montréal nord essayent de le capter pour entendre l'émission de Jeunesse. Et il y a d'autres choses comme ça.
  29. Je l'ai vécu à CHRS, où les jeunes nous écoutaient à Massicouche quand la station était à St-Jean parce qu'ils voulaient entendre leur country.
  30. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: On l'a même fait pour Radio-Canada, je crois, dans la dernière année où apparemment les étudiants l'été allaient essayer d'ajuster les appareils radio des gens et leur indiquer où les installer pour qu'ils puissent capter le signal. Voilà.
  31. Maintenant, dans vos finances vous avez comme dépenses d'exploitation technique $5,000 par année. Il s'agit de quoi?
  32. M. M. MATHIEU: Contrat d'entretien technique, dépenses techniques, générales d'entretien.
  33. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Cela inclut l'électricité aussi pour ---
  34. M. M. MATHIEU: Non. Le bail que nous avons nous fournit l'abris pour les studios, l'émetteur, l'antenne. L'électricité est comprise. C'est un édifice à bureaux et puis ---
  35. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Et je trouve ça où dans vos ---
  36. M. M. MATHIEU: Dans les frais d'administration on a inclus -- j'ai pas ma feuille; je vais la retrouver -- mais dans les frais d'administration ---
  37. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Au poste dépenses d'administration générales?
  38. M. M. MATHIEU: Oui.
  39. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: C'est là qu'on trouverait le coût ---
  40. M. M. MATHIEU: La location pour l'immeuble.
  41. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: --- de faire fonctionner l'antenne, et le $5,000 ça serait simplement pour l'entretien?
  42. M. M. MATHIEU: C'est ça. Le $5,000 c'est les langues de l'émetteur, un peu de service d'émetteurs.
  43. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: L'entretien.
  44. M. M. MATHIEU: Moi, je peux vous assurer, madame, ça fait 40 ans que je fais ça et puis une station de cette magnitude-là, quand ça va lui avoir coûté $5,000 par année en moyenne, c'est un maximum.
  45. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Bon, maintenant il ne me reste plus qu'à discuter du format de votre station qui, comme vous le savez, cause des questions, des préoccupations, et nécessite que vous soyez relevés de l'obligation de diffuser, au moins 50 pour-cent de la semaine de radiodiffusion, dans une langue autre que le français, l'anglais ou une langue autochtone.
  46. Je vous ai déjà dit -- je vous le répète -- j'ai compris, je crois, et j'ai certainement lu vos revendications, pourquoi vous avez perçu la bonne idée d'établir votre proposition dans cette direction-là.
  47. Mais nous, évidemment, nous avons une politique ethnique et les stations ethniques doivent, en général, les respecter.
  48. Alors, j'aimerais essayer de discuter un peu avec vous comment on peut accepter votre proposition tout en nous assurant qu'elle sera ce que vous nous dites qu'elle sera et qu'elle offrira de la diversité et de la qualité aux communautés en question.
  49. Alors, au niveau de la musique, vous nous dites que moins de 70 pour-cent de votre programmation musicale proviendra de ce que nous, nous appelons la catégorie 2, donc 30 pour-cent sera de la catégorie 3. Et vous savez aussi qu'en plus du format station ethnique, nous avons aussi format de station FM, pas AM, mais format spécialisé, c'est-à-dire, qui reconnaît que quand on diffuse moins que 70 pour-cent de catégorie 2, on est une station de radio différente, bien que ce soit la politique FM.
  50. Alors, je veux vous rassurer que le conseil peut évidemment vous relever de l'obligation ou imposer d'autres obligations qui nous rassureraient que votre projet serait mis en oeuvre comme vous nous l'avez présenté.
  51. Alors, est-ce qui serait, par exemple, opportun de vous accorder une licence plutôt pour une station qui aurait des exigences au niveau de la musique de catégorie 3, par exemple, que nous insisterions, par condition de licence, qu'il y aurait au moins 30 pour-cent de votre musique qui serait de la musique du monde, de la musique internationale en créole, en espagnol, langue africaine, portuguaise?
  52. M. M. MATHIEU: J'aimerais répondre, si vous me permettez? Absolument. Dalleurs, si vous considérez -- parce que nous, nous sommes allés avec la musique spécialisée dans un minimum et non un maximum. Et si vous regardez comme il faut la demande, vous allez vite décortiquer et comprendre qu'effectivement, si on commence à jouer du créole, de l'africain, du latino, on va excéder ça, mais j'ai vu ça, moi, comme musique du monde. Mais c'est un petit peu difficile pour moi de décortiquer tout ça. Alors, si on l'interprète, si vous me dites qu'on fait jouer de la musique en créole et que c'est de la musique du monde qui tombe dans la catégorie 3, on n'a vraiment pas de problème avec ça. C'est le projet. C'est la station.
  53. M. J.E. PIERRE: Absolument.
  54. M. M. MATHIEU: C'est le but de la station.
  55. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Mais il faut, Me Pierre, que vous reconnaissiez vous-même la différence entre catégorie 2 et catégorie 3. Alors, catégorie 3 c'est de la musique autre que de la musique populaire, et vous parlez surtout de la sous-catégorie 33.
  56. Maintenant, est-ce que pour nous rassurer que cette station aurait le son et desservirait de la façon que vous avez proposée, vous accepteriez que nous limitions la musique en anglais ou/et en français, puisque votre station va être plutôt distinctive par sa musique, aussi par sa création orale, mais la musique, elle sera généralement dans des langues autres ---
  57. M. J.E. PIERRE: Oui, je pense à ça effectivement. Oui, on accepterait une telle limitation. Évidemment, quand vous dites limitée, vous nous laisserez quand même une marge de manoeuvre parce que je pense que c'est extrêmement important. On dit qu'on attire les mouches avec du sirop. Nous voulons attirer nos jeunes, exemple, Maxime qui n'écoute que la musique rap jusqu'à 4h00 ou 5h00 du matin, et c'est décourageant, il n'écoute jamais de musique haïtienne. Donc, il faudrait qu'il y ait un petit peu de mélange pour ces jeunes-là pour les attirer vers cette nouvelle station-là.
  58. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: J'explore simplement une formule possible. Ce n'est pas -- ce sont des questions. Qu'est-ce que vous verriez comme limite de la musique en français ou en anglais?
  59. M. M. MATHIEU: Si vous me permettez, Madam Wylie, j'aimerais juste amener un petit point. Si on parle de musique créole et que cette musique-là est une musique populaire en Haïti, style disco, est-ce que vous le considérez comme une musique du monde? Et c'est la raison pour laquelle on a mis plus de musique de catégorie 2.
  60. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: C'est la catégorie 3, c'est en créole.
  61. M. M. MATHIEU: Alors si c'est catégorie 3, on est beaucoup plus que 30 pour-cent.
  62. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: La catégorie 2 ce serait de la musique populaire anglaise ou de la musique populaire en langue française.
  63. Alors, qu'est-ce que vous verriez pour nous rassurer que ce ne sera pas une station comme les autres, qui est ce que vous nous proposez, une station spéciale? Qu'est-ce que vous verriez comme limites de musique en français -- de toute la musique en français ou en anglais? C'est surtout la musique de catégorie 2 parce qu'elle est déjà spéciale quand elle est catégorie 3. Sur la catégorie 2, combien de musique ne serait pas ---
  64. M. M. MATHIEU: Si vous me permettez, Me Pierre me demande de répondre à ça. Si on considère toute musique comme créole, africaine ou latino comme musique du monde, catégorie 3, on peut renverser les pourcentages parce que c'est le sens de la demande. On a mis un haut pourcentage sur la catégorie 2 pour se couvrir, pour pas être en déficience, mais si vous nous dites qu'à partir du moment où la musique est chantée dans une langue autre que le français et l'anglais et que c'est de la musique destinée vers les groupes que nous ciblons, style, le créole et tout ça, il va avoir au moins 60 à 70 pour-cent de musique dans cette langue-là. Donc, ça tombe dans la catégorie 3.
  65. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Qui sera ni en français, ni en anglais.
  66. M. M. MATHIEU: Et voilà.
  67. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: En tout cas, j'espère que le personnel suit bien tout ça pour poser des questions. On complique les choses.
  68. Mais ce que j'essaye de faire c'est de voir comment on peut peut-être, sans vous donner une licence ethnique et être obligé de changer complètement la politique, s'il n'y aurait pas une autre possibilité de vous garder à la proposition que vous avez à travers votre terme de licence, si vous en avez un, sans compliquer la vie trop.
  69. Maintenant, au niveau du contenu canadien, vous avez proposé que la première année, le contenu musical canadien ne serait que de 20 pour-cent pour l'année un, et à l'année deux, de 35 pour-cent.
  70. M. J.E. PIERRE: Est-ce qu'on s'octroie pas, parce que pour moi, la première et la deuxième année c'est la même chose, à moins de me tromper.
  71. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Et ailleurs je crois que j'ai vu première année et deuxième année -- ça c'est dans les lacunes, mais dans votre mémoire supplémentaire à la page 3, je pense que vous disiez plutôt première -- vous voyez, c'est pas tout à fait la même chose -- première et deuxième année à 20 pour-cent, troisième année à 35. Mais dans les lacunes vous dites "contenu musical canadien, 20 pour-cent la première année et 35 pour-cent la deuxième année".
  72. M. J.E. PIERRE: Je pense que c'était pour vous dire qu'on peut faire un effort d'aller jusqu'à 35 pour-cent la deuxième année après cette première lettre de lacune.
  73. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Alors, après avoir pris en considération les questions du Conseil, à ce moment-là vous seriez prêts à ---
  74. M. J.E. PIERRE: Oui.
  75. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: --- dès la deuxième année à y aller.
  76. M. J.E. PIERRE: Oui.
  77. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Maintenant, en ce qui a trait à la catégorie 3, ça serait pour la musique de catégorie 3, la musique spéciale où vous auriez un contenu canadien aussi élevé?
  78. M. J.E. PIERRE: Parce que là j'ai un petit peu de difficulté, parce que ma musique est africaine, latino-américaine, haïtienne créée au Canada, pour moi c'est de la musique canadienne. Et puis oui, nous aurons cette possibilité-là à la deuxième année d'atteindre 35 pour-cent et j'ai même expliqué que si on refuse, nous avons ici dans la salle des producteurs de musique des organisations d'orchestres comme tels qui sont interessés à ça. Nous ne voulons pas avoir à les diffuser tout de suite, tout de suite, pour ne pas créer de pression quant à la qualité de cette musique-là, mais par contre, oui, dès la deuxième année nous pensons pouvoir effectivement nous ajuster à 35 pour-cent, si on considère cette musique-là comme étant de la musique canadienne.
  79. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Alors, est-ce que vous suggériez ici que ce soit 70 pour-cent de musique de catégorie 3? Il y en aurait autant que 20 pour-cent dès la première année canadienne?
  80. M. J.E. PIERRE: Oui.
  81. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Et maintenant, la musique -- le contenu musical francophone. Évidemment, si vous n'êtes pas une station ethnique, pendant les parties non-ethniques c'est 65 pour-cent, mais là nous venons de parler de plutôt limiter plutôt que d'obliger le 65 pour-cent francophone. Vous avez des commentaires?
  82. M. M. MATHIEU: On a ---
  83. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Et la raison pour laquelle je vous pose la question c'est que vous avez rajouté dans les réponses de lacune, et je crois dans votre présentation d'aujourd'hui, que si le Conseil décidait que, de fait, on vous donnait une exigence que pendant les périodes non-ethniques, il y ait 65 pour-cent de langue française, de contenu musical français quand c'est vocal. Vous nous dites au paragraphe 6 que: "Si le Conseil considère que nous devions être une radio ethnique à 60 pour-cent de la programmation", vous seriez prêts à diffuser pour 40 pour-cent de la programmation restante un contenu musical francophone à 65 pour-cent et un contenu musical canadien à 35 pour-cent. Donc, il s'agirait de 40 pour-cent de 40 pour-cent ---
  84. M. M. MATHIEU: Bien, c'est-à-dire que ---
  85. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: --- qui aurait 65 pour-cent de français.
  86. M. M. MATHIEU: Ce qu'on a voulu dire, Madame Wylie c'est la chose suivante. Si le Conseil décidait qu'on doit se conformer à votre politique en terme d'ethnie et qu'on ne diffuse que 60 pour-cent ou qu'on doit diffuser, disons, 60 pour-cent dans une langue autre, à ce moment-là la programmation qui serait francophone, on serait prêts à rencontrer les exigences en matière de programmation francophone. Alors, tant que la programmation est francophone, ça serait le 65 pour-cent français et le 35 pour-cent canadien parce que là ça serait de la musique francophone.
  87. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Mais ce serait un peu artificiel parce que vous continueriez à avoir 100 pour-cent d'ethnique et vous vous plieriez à ce que 40 pour-cent de cette programmation ethnique ait 65 pour-cent de musique en français.
  88. Maintenant, si je vous demandais qu'elle est, à votre avis, après cette discussion, la formule la plus pertinente ou opportune pour que vous mettiez en vigueur votre projet, mais que nous et les autres stations dans le marché soient rassurés que c'est exactement ça que vous allez faire et pas autre chose, et nous, nous faisons ça évidemment par condition de licence? Qu'est-ce qui serait la formule et qui nous obligerait pas, si nous décidons que ce n'est pas la meilleure idée de vous donner un permis de station ethnique et de vous relever du 50 pour-cent de création orale ethnique?
  89. M. M. MATHIEU: Tout d'abord, par condition -- c'est toujours par condition de licence -- On s'entend bien, et on l'accepte -- de desservir les haïtiens ---
  90. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Comme on dit en bon anglais un permis "custom made".
  91. M. M. MATHIEU: That's right.
  92. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Alors, quels paramètres voulez-vous?
  93. M. M. MATHIEU: On accepterait au départ par condition de licence qu'on dessert les latinos, les africains, les haïtiens, point à la ligne.
  94. Deuxième chose, et par là, je vais le dire, on ne dessert pas ni les canadiens français, ni les canadiens anglais. C'est pas une station commerciale en compétition avec aucune autre station commerciale qu'on désire. C'est une station commercial ethnique pour les ethnies qu'on a mentionnées.
  95. L'idée que vous avez mentionné pour la musique, et si on comprends bien que la catégorie 3 s'applique dans le cas de musique du monde, qui veut dire de la musique d'Haïti ou d'Afrique ou de la musique latino, à ce moment-là on n'a pas de problème avec les quotas qu'on a mentionnés et qui seraient une condition de licence.
  96. Comme Me Pierre l'a dit, on doit diffuser de la musique en français parce qu'on veut intégrer les gens. On a des jeunes. Mais il faut aussi avoir le son africain, le son latino, le son haïtien et on ne peut pas le faire si on ne peut pas diffuser cette musique-là. Alors, on a aucune problème avec ça. Au contraire, ça renforcit notre projet.
  97. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Quel serait le ratio à ce moment-là?
  98. M. M. MATHIEU: Je pense qu'on avait parlé de 70 ---
  99. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: L'inverse.
  100. M. M. MATHIEU: Exactement, oui.
  101. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Et maintenant parlez-moi du contenu canadien.
  102. M. M. MATHIEU: Bien, écoutez, le contenu canadien, je pense qu'il n'y a pas de problème à ce qu'on a mentionné ---
  103. M. J.E. PIERRE: On a toujours dit, effectivement, que ce serait beaucoup plus facile pour nous de rencontrer les exigences du Conseil pour le contenu canadien compte tenu que nous avons nos artistes ici qui produisent la musique canadienne, mais encore avec un petit peu de soleil, si vous voulez.
  104. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Et quelles limites de produits en langue anglaise croyez-vous seraient raisonnables pour vous assurer que ça demeure la station que vous proposez?
  105. M. M. MATHIEU: C'est très difficile pour nous de répondre en anglais, madame, parce qu'on n'avait même pas prévu de faire jouer des chansons en anglais. Alors, ce serait très ---
  106. M. J.E. PIERRE: Évidemment, comme j'ai dit tout à l'heure, pour les jeunes, mais vraiment ---
  107. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Votre fils s'inquiète.
  108. M. J.E. PIERRE: J'ai vu ça. Effectivement, le stricte minimum parce que c'est pas l'objectif, mais effectivement il faut accommoder les jeunes.
  109. M. M. MATHIEU: Je metterais un cinq pour-cent en anglais au maximum.
  110. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Et voilà, le personnel aura sans doute d'autres questions pour essayer d'arrondir un peu. C'est un projet qui ne s'insère pas facilement dans nos politiques, mais nous sommes ouverts à discuter comment on peut y arriver. Et nous, je vous le répète, notre intérêt c'est de nous assurer qu'il y a diversité, qu'il y a une addition dans le marché qui ne répète pas ce qui est là déjà et que nous avons des mécanismes réglementaires qui nous rassurent que vous allez faire exactement ce que vous nous proposez.
  111. Madame la présidente, je vous remercie.
  112. M. M. MATHIEU: Si vous me permettez, d'abord j'aimerais -- parce qu'on l'a appris ce matin par Monsieur Morrissette -- vous souhaiter un bon anniversaire, Madam Wylie, et c'est très sincère.
  113. Et également, j'aime bien ce que vous venez de dire parce que c'est très vrai. Moi, en tant que radiodiffuseur, je déplore qu'à Montréal les stations commerciales ont quasiment toutes le même son. Ce qu'on veut faire c'est se distinguer. Et je peux vous dire que c'est très difficule de vous apporter une image sonore de ce qu'on va être, mais je l'ai compris ce que Jean Ernest veut faire, et je peux vous dire que ça va être quelque chose qui est vraiment unique, non pas seulement au niveau technique.
  114. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Oui. Je vous remercie de vos bons voeux, et heuresement que c'est moi qui pose les questions, donc vous ne pouvez pas me demander quel est mon âge.
  115. LA PRÉSIDENTE: Peut-être que les autres conseillers ont des questions?
  116. Commissioner Cardozo.
  117. CONSEILLER CARDOZO: Merci, Madame la présidente.
  118. J'ai deux ou trois questions pour comprendre quelque chose un peu plus. Quand vous parlez de la communauté africaine, vous parlez de quelles communautés spécifiques? Comme je vois, vous ne parlez pas des communautés afro-canadiennes comme d'origine de la Jamaique, Trinidad, États-Unis, et cetera. Vous parlez des communautés qui sont ici presque directement de l'Afrique?
  119. M. P. BROWN: Non, en fait, ce qu'on entend par communauté africaine c'est tout l'espace francophone, en réalité, c'est-à-dire les africains qui ont, pour deuxième ou certains pays en même la langue officielle comme le français.
  120. CONSEILLER CARDOZO: Comme les ---
  121. M. P. BROWN: Ca n'inclut pas les jamaicains donc. C'est l'espace francophone surtout.
  122. CONSEILLER CARDOZO: De quels pays?
  123. M. P. BROWN: Vous avez toute la côte ouest qui est francophone, c'est-à-dire le Sénégal, la Côte d'Ivoire, et cetera, et même en Afrique centrale aussi, vous savez, c'est francophone, le Zaïre, le Chad, et etcetera, Congo. Donc, c'est dans cet espace.
  124. CONSEILLER CARDOZO: Je comprends bien.
  125. Ces communautés parlent quelles langues autre que le français?
  126. M.P. BROWN: Oh mon Dieu, dans chaque pays -- je viens d'assister à un colloque avant-hier. Dans un pays, il peut y avoir -- si vous prenez le cas de la Côte d'Ivoire, par exemple, vous avez 400 langues différentes. Alors, c'est pour ça que les colons français ont insisté pour que le français soit la langue officielle, parce que c'est finalement -- et c'est ce que je disais, dalleurs, plus tôt quand on a commencé, c'est ça qui sert de véhicule, finalement, pour pouvoir faire cette jonction entre les gens, la rencontre des gens, et c'est pour ça qu'on a gardé -- les gens ont gardé la langue du maître. Non seulement c'est un véhicule de communication, comme je l'ai dit, ça permet de communiquer d'un pays à l'autre dans l'espace francophone.
  127. CONSEILLER CARDOZO: Je veux demander une question sur la demande de services dans les autres langues.
  128. Me Pierre, je comprends très bien votre message et regarde votre slogan "Pour vivre son ethnicity en français au Québec". Mais trouvez-vous, quand vous préparez cette requête, qu'il y a des demandes pour les autres langues, en créole ou espagnol, ou swahili?
  129. M. J.E. PIERRE: Qu'il y a une demande pour les autres langues?
  130. CONSEILLER CARDOZO: Oui, pour des programmations dans d'autres langues?
  131. M. J.E. PIERRE: Certainement, et ça existe déjà. Ca existe déjà, sauf qu'il y a toute une nouvelle génération qui ne se reconnaît pas dans ces programmes-là, parce que comme j'ai donné en exemple, ces jeunes-là ne parlent plus la langue de leur ancêtres. C'est malheureux, mais c'est une réalité avec laquelle on vit. Mais en plus, au Québec -- je parle de la réalité québécoise -- on nous pointe au nez, immigrants, comme quoi on seraient à part, on serait cavaliers seuls ou on vivrait dans un ghetto, qu'on ne veuille pas nous intégrer à la majorité francophone, alors que la réalité est toute autre. Je vous dis que les enfants des deuxièmes, troisième génération des immigrants ne parlent même plus une autre langue. S'ils parlent une autre langue, c'est l'anglais et le français. Et cette réalité-là n'est pas reconnue comme telle. Et je me dis que c'est au niveau, contrairement à ce que mon confrère Michel Mathieu peut penser, si on leur donnait à ces gens-là qui parlent français, mais peut-être avec un accent, si on leur donnait la possibilité de s'exprimer en français, on comprendrait effectivement -- à la radio, on comprendrait que ces gens-là sont intégrés au niveau linguistique, qu'ils parlent français, qu'ils veulent s'intégrer à la majorité, mais on leur refuse sous prétexte qu'ils ont un son différent. Je ne suis pas d'accord avec mon ami Michel.
  132. M. M. MATHIEU: C'est pas moi qui le dit. C'est la radio commerciale. C'est d'autres personnes qui dirigent des radios commerciales. Mais j'ai été honnête avec Jean Ernest en lui disant ça, parce que malheureusement c'est vrai.
  133. CONSEILLER CARDOZO: Vous parlez, Me Pierre, des enfants de la loi 101?
  134. M. J.E. PIERRE: Les enfants de la loi 101, effectivement, mais des enfants aussi -- parce que moi je regarde Maxime, il est un des enfants de la Loi 101, mais Maxime est à un âge maintenant de procréer. Dans quelques années je serai grand-père. Et là, aoujourd'hui, regardez ma mère et Maxime, ma mère parle en créole à Maxime parce qu'elle est unilingue créole. Elle parle en créole à Maxime et Maxime lui répond en français à 19 ans. Maxime ne parlera pas du tout créole à son enfant. Donc, mes arrières petit-enfants ne comprenderont pas le créole, mais pas du tout. Donc, c'est une réalité avec laquelle on doit composer.
  135. CONSEILLER CARDOZO: Vous avez parlé de d'autres communautés latinos et africaines. Avez-vous des personnes de cette communauté dans votre équipe?
  136. M. J.E. PIERRE: Effectivement, nous avons, comme j'ai dit tout à l'heure, nous avons une équipe qui est composée à l'intérieur même de CHAMF des producteurs d'émissions, effectivement, qui oeuvrent aussi au niveau de leur communauté, qui ont des oeuvres sociales avec lesquelles nous travaillons.
  137. M. P. BROWN: Et il a de l'expérience dans la radiodiffusion.
  138. M. J.E. PIERRE: Oui, qui produisent une émission le samedi soir à CHAMF, effectivement. Et dans la communauté africaine, c'est beaucoup plus facile pour moi déjà. C'est ma clientèle déjà.
  139. CONSEILLER CARDOZO: Merci beaucoup.
  140. M. J.E. PIERRE: Merci.
  141. CONSEILLER CARDOZO: Merci, Madame la présidente.
  142. LA PRÉSIDENTE: Conseillers juridiques?
  143. Me P. McCALLUM: Merci beaucoup.
  144. Juste une couple de précisions, si je peux. A un moment donné vous avez dit que vous accepteriez une musique de catégorie 3 de 70 pour-cent. De là j'ai compris que vous accepteriez une condition de licence pour catégorie 2 de musique à 30 pour-cent. Est-ce que c'est exact?
  145. M. M. MATHIEU: Oui, c'est exact. Si on s'entend bien que la catégorie 3 représente la musique chantée en créole, en latin et en africain -- en latino. A ce moment-là, on n'a pas de problème.
  146. Mais c'est parce que moi j'avais vu, suite à certaines discussions, à ce que si une oeuvre est faite en créole, mais que c'est une oeuvre populaire, on croyait que ça tombait dans la catégorie 2. C'est pour ça qu'on a élargi le pourcentage de la catégorie 2. Mais dans les faits, la station aura très peu de musique de catégorie 2, parce que ce n'est pas une station de musique populaire. C'est une station destinée aux ethnies.
  147. Me P. McCALLUM: Parfait. Et si je remonte toujours dans la catégorie 2, ça c'est un total combiné en langue anglaise et en français. Quel serait le maximum de musique de la catégorie 2 de langue anglaise au sein de cette catégorie?
  148. M. M. MATHIEU: On vient de mentionner que sur la programmation totale de la station, il y aurait un maximum de cinq pour-cent de chansons en anglais. Alors, on peut dire que dans le 30 pour-cent qui demeure catégorie 2, si on veut, qui est un maximum et non pas un minimum, à ce moment-là, on calcule cinq pour-cent de l'ensemble de la programmation. Alors, il y aurait probablement 25 pour-cent catégorie 2 francophone ou autre et cinq pour-cent anglais de catégorie 2.
  149. Me P. McCALLUM: Juste pour essayer d'établir une limite, si le Conseil disait que dans cette catégorie 2, maximum, disons, de 15 pour-cent en français et maximum de 15 pour-cent en anglais pour un total de 30, ça vous irait?
  150. M. M. MATHIEU: Absolument.
  151. Me P. McCALLUM: Vous avez fait un engagement à un moment donné de faire, je pense, 40 pour-cent de création orale, c'est exact?
  152. M. M. MATHIEU: Je n'ai pas devant moi l'engagement, mais je sais que j'ai mentionné qu'on aurait 40 pour-cent de création orale, ce qui rentre pas mal dans les lignes d'une programmation AM, compte tenu que en AM, c'est pas un station musicale qui va avoir beaucoup de nouvelles, d'actualité et d'émissions d'affaires publiques. Alors, 40 pour-cent de création orale est quelque chose qui est atteignable très facilement.
  153. Me P. McCALLUM: Et si le Conseil voulait mettre ça en condition de licence, ça irait avec vous?
  154. M. J.E. PIERRE: Je pense entre 35 et 40, oui, on serait correcte.
  155. M. M. MATHIEU: Question de nous sécuriser et puis d'éviter une lacune, on pourrait peut-être parler de 35 pour-cent. Mais je peux vous dire de mon expérience dans la radiodiffusion, une simple station country a minimum 40 pour-cent en présentant les disques, en présentant les bulletins de nouvelles, les publicités et tout.
  156. C'est ton expérience aussi en tant qu'animateur.
  157. MR. D. ROBERT: Oui, facilement. Au AM c'est facilement ça.
  158. M. M. MATHIEU: Même avec cinq employés et puis un système informatisé, vous avez votre 40. Si on s'entend pour 35, on est sûr de notre coup.
  159. Me P. McCALLUM: Encore une fois, pour contribution au talent canadien, vous avez parlé, je pense, des sommes de $3,000 iront à $8,000 après sept ans -- à la fin de sept ans, c'est ça?
  160. M. M. MATHIEU: C'est-à-dire que dans les discussions avec Madame Wylie, on est d'accord pour regarder avec le Conseil -- dans notre demande, dalleurs, on est clair. C'est sûr que nous on a proposé le $3,000 dans un esprit de transparence et de justice de l'avis de tout le monde, mais si le Conseil le juge à propos et qui désire en faire une condition de licence qu'on atteigne $8,000 dans sept ans, on a considéré ça et on est d'accord.
  161. Me P. McCALLUM: Donc, si je vous propose, juste un exemple de comment ça peut s'échelonner, dites si ça serait satisfait -- c'est une proposition -- ils ont $3,000 dans la première année, $35,000 (sic) deuxième année, $4,000 troisième année, $5,000 quatrième année, $6,000 cinquième année, $7,000 sixième année et $8,000 la septième année, ça vous irait?
  162. M. M. MATHIEU: Si on s'entend que la deuxième année c'est $3,500, on n'a pas de problème, mais si c'est $35,000, est-ce que je peux faire une attaque de coeur maintenant?
  163. Me P. McCALLUM: Oui. Et il s'agit toujours de dépenses directes dans ce cas?
  164. M. M. MATHIEU: Style musique action ou style des organismes qui rencontrent les normes. C'est en argent comptant un paiement direct.
  165. Me P. McCALLUM: Oui.
  166. M. M. MATHIEU: Comme le prévoit le service.
  167. Me P. McCALLUM: Oui, un organisme éligible.
  168. M. M. MATHIEU: Et voilà.
  169. Me P. McCALLUM: Parfait.
  170. Merci, Madame la présidente.
  171. LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci beaucoup.
  172. Merci beaucoup, messieurs. Il n'y a pas d'intervenants ici, mais vous avez quand même une occasion maintenant pour 10 minutes seulement pour répliquer aux interventions.
  173. M. M. MATHIEU: Alors, si vous me permettez, j'aimerais mentionner certains petits points et peut-être passer la parole à Me Pierre.
  174. Alors, dans le cas de l'intervention de CKUT Radio McGill, j'aimerais mentionner peut-être un manque de procédure. C'est que nous n'avons pas reçu l'intervention de eux. C'est des gens du Conseil qui ont été assez gentils de nous la faire parvenir et de nous en informer, parce que l'intervention de CKUT ne parle même pas de copie conforme, ni à moi, ni à Me Pierre. Alors, on aimerait mentionner au CRTC ce manque-là.
  175. Si on regarde les avis publiques, c'est assez clair qu'un intervenant doit envoyer uen copie de l'intervention au requérant d'abord, et ensuite la preuve au CRTC comme quoi qu'il a envoyé son intervention. Ce n'est pas le cas dans le cas de CKUT. CKUT est une radio universitaire. J'étais présent à leur audience au mois de novembre ou décembre '86, lorsque le Conseil a jugé bon de leur donner une licence, et je ne crois pas que c'est une obligation pour eux de diffuser pour des ethnies, bien qu'ils le font, et on n'a rien contre ça. Définitivement, on n'est pas en compétition avec eux. Alors, j'ai un petit peu de misère à regarder leur inteverntion. Leur préoccupation c'était de dire que vous devez une station à un individu et que c'est peut-être pas clair et honnête vis-à-vis des groups intéressés.
  176. Me Pierre est un homme de loi, membre du Barreau au Québec. Il a mis en place des mécanismes pour que la politique du CRTC en matière de programmation balancée soit respectée. Et on peut vous assurer aujourd'hui, et je pense que Me Pierre est d'accord avec moi, que les mesures nécessaires seront prises pour que cette station-là, si vous nous faites l'honneur de nous donner une licence, que la programmation soit balancée.
  177. L'intervention de 5-FM, il y a un appui qui est envoyé de la part de l'équipe haïtienne et le CRTC. Le Conseil l'a considéré comme un appui de la part de 5-FM. J'ai un petit peu de misère que le lendemain ils nous envoient une intervention. Encore là, eux diffusent certaines émissions dans la langue d'origine. Nous, on diffuse en français. Eux s'adressent à un certain group d'âge. On s'adresse à un groupe beaucoup plus jeune. Alors, je ne vois pas de compétition.
  178. Quant à l'intervention de Madame Joseph, elle parle d'une personne qui a eu une licence. En fait, c'est la radio CJPX qui a eu la licence, mais c'est le monsieur qui loue l'onde supporteuse. Elle est concernée par ça. Le monsieur, lorsqu'il a loué son onde supporteuse, au départ il y avait une entente avec Me Pierre, premièrement. Deuxièmement, il savait qu'il y avait des fréquences AM disponibles et il savait surtout qu'il y avait d'autres stations qui diffusaient des émissions en créole à Montréal, et malgré tout, il est allé de l'avant avec son projet. Alors, je ne vois pas le problème. Et encore là, ce monsieur-là, monsieur Duval Singh, diffuse en créole et non pas en français et à un autre groupe d'âge que nous. C'est une onde supporteuse. Il faut acheter ou louer un récepteur. Nous, nous demandons d'être sur les ondes.
  179. L'autre intervention de Madame Joseph, je vais laisser Me Pierre la commenter.
  180. En terminant, j'aimerais dire que c'est dommage des fois il y a des gens qui se servent peut-être des interventions au CRTC comme des tribunes pour leurs problèmes personnels. J'espère que ce n'est pas le cas ici.
  181. Je laisse la parole à Me Pierre.
  182. M. J.E. PIERRE: Merci, Michel.
  183. Alors, j'ajouterais simplement que parmi ces interventions-là, il faut peut-être regarder d'abord ce que Michel a dit de ces interventions qui sont, par exemple, celles de Radio McGill qui ne nous a pas été signifiée. Évidemment, c'est un manque. Mais il faut aussi voir que cette intervention-là n'a même pas été signée, et ça je trouve que c'est flagrant, à mon avis. Il en est de même de l'intervention de Madame Joseph, qui n'a pas été signée. Pour moi, c'est des interventions -- c'est tout simplement une lettre anonyme qui a été envoyée.
  184. Effectivement, la seule intervention qui a été signée c'est quelqu'un que nous avons rencontré, effectivement, pour présenter le projet, qui est le président donc du Conseil d'administration de 5-FM qui est, à mon avis -- cette intervention-là a été annullée car les membres de l'équipe haïtiennes ont envoyé une lettre d'appui avec une lettre d'entête de Radio Centre-ville pour nous appuyer, pour nous dire que nous sommes une station de radio très différente de ce qu'est Radio Centre-ville, et la preuve c'est qu'ils ont encore à Radio Centre-ville. Il n'y a aucun problème. Alors, je ne comprends plus rien. Pour moi, c'est une intervention qui s'annulle, tout simplement.
  185. Nous, nous proposons de faire quelque chose qui est complètement différent. Je pense que 5-FM, qui se dit une radio qui existe depuis 26 ans, et c'est une réalité qu'elle existe depuis 26 ans. Aujourd'hui, la réalité socio-culturelle du Québec a changé énormément. L'intégration don't se propose de faire Radio Centre-ville est encore vraie pour les immigrants qui viennent à peine de débarquer au Québec et qui ne se sont pas encore intégrés, qui ne parlent que leur langue d'origine. Ils vont trouver un service, mais pour ces gens-là qui sont nés au Québec, il n'y a pas de services pour eux à 5-FM et c'est ce type de service-là que nous proposons d'offrir à ce public plus jeune, évidemment entre l'âge de Maxime et plus vieux encore, disons qui n'ont plus comme langue maternelle la langue de leux ancêtres.
  186. Alors merci. Pour toutes ces raisons, je vous demanderais rejetter et de ne pas tenir compte de ces interventions. Merci.
  187. M. M. MATHIEU: On vous remercie.
  188. M. D. ROBERT: Merci beaucoup.
  189. LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci beaucoup.
  190. That concludes our day, and we will reconvene tomorrow morning at 9:00 a.m. with Radio Témiscamingue.
  191. Have a good evening. Bonsoir. Bonne soirée.

--- Upon adjourning at 7:07 p.m./L'audience est ajournée à 19h07


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