ARCHIVED -  Transcript - Hull, QC - 2001/05/28

Multiple broadcasting and ownership applications &
applications further to Public Notice CRTC 2000-153
"Call for applications for a broadcasting licence to carry on
a radio programming undertaking to serve Ottawa/Hull"/
Demandes de radiodiffusion et de propriétés multiples ainsi
que des demandes suite à l'avis public CRTC 2000-153
"Appel de demandes de licence de radiodiffusion visant
l'exploitation d'une entreprise de programmation de radio
pour desservir Ottawa/Hull"

Transcripts

In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages
Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be
bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members
and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of
Contents.

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded
verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in
either of the official languages, depending on the language
spoken by the participant at the public hearing.

Transcription

Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues
officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront
bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des
membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience
publique ainsi que la table des matières.

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu
textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée
et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues
officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le
participant à l'audience publique.

Multiple broadcasting and ownership applications &
applications further to Public Notice CRTC 2000-153
"Call for applications for a broadcasting licence to carry on
a radio programming undertaking to serve Ottawa/Hull"/
Demandes de radiodiffusion et de propriétés multiples ainsi
que des demandes suite à l'avis public CRTC 2000-153
"Appel de demandes de licence de radiodiffusion visant
l'exploitation d'une entreprise de programmation de radio
pour desservir Ottawa/Hull"

BEFORE / DEVANT:

ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:

Hull, Quebec / Hull (Québec)

--- Upon resuming on Monday, May 28, 2001 at 0900 / L'audience reprend le lundi 28 mai 2001 à 0900

6674 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Bonjour, mesdames et messieurs. Nous sommes maintenant prêts à commencer la Phase III de cette audience.

6675 We are now ready to proceed to Phase III of the hearing. Good morning to all.

6676 Madame la Secrétaire, s'il vous plaît.

6677 MS POIRIER: Thank you, Madam Chair.

6678 As you are probably aware, we are going to start with No. 5 in your agenda.

6679 The first four interventions have been moved to the end of the process.

6680 Nous allons débuter avec le numéro 5 parce que les quatre premiers numéros ont été déménagés à mardi en fin de journée.

6681 I would like to call Mr. John Boudrias. Mr. Boudrias is not here.

6682 Native American Journalists Association.

6683 Every intervener has ten minutes maximum.

6684 Thank you.

INTERVENTION

6685 MS O'BOMSAWIN: Good morning. Excuse my nervousness.

6686 Hi. My name is Angie O'Bomsawin. I am here today for -- sorry about that -- Mary Annette Pember, for the Native American Journalists Association.

6687 THE CHAIRPERSON: You shouldn't be nervous. It's Monday morning and we are very patient.

6688 MS O'BOMSAWIN: Okay. I am here to go over bringing up -- I am so sorry, guys.

--- Pause

6689 MS O'BOMSAWIN: Okay.

6690 My name is Angie O'Bomsawin. I am from a small community named Odanak along the St. Francis River. We are about 350 members within the community and 1,450 off community.

6691 I have this dream, I guess, amongst all young natives. When I first moved to my community -- I was born and raised in Ottawa -- at the age of 12 I went through many stages of feeling disconnected and feeling as if I didn't know where I belonged coming from a city and being moved into a community where we were now surrounded by borders and holding a feeing of segregation and that was very scary for me. I was very nervous of how my own people would react to me and -- I am so sorry -- how my own community would react to me from being raised in the city and not being raised on the reservation, and as well the fear of not knowing who I was and feeling inferior to my neighbours around me.

6692 When I started to spend more and more time with members of the community and Elders, I started realizing that this disconnected feeling that I was feeling for so long in my life was that of not knowing who I was and where exactly I was coming from.

6693 At the age of 14 I was moved to a community called Kanawake along the shore of Montreal. Again, I held great fear coming from a community of 320 then going to one over 8,000. I was very scared on how they would react to me, especially because my community was French-based and this community was English-based. There was a lot of rivalry between our own family members and brothers and sisters and blood.

6694 So I spent a long time trying to figure out what it was that we needed as native people to take away this feeling of disconnection and to bring us together as a group and not feeling so alone and so scared of my own people as well as outsiders.

6695 I spent a long time thinking what the key was, and when it came down to it I realized that we needed some kind of link to bring us together as youth and as Elders and all members to get answers to the questions that I needed answers for. I needed answers for who I was and where I was going in life and that sort of thing.

6696 Spending the time in Kanawake and participating in festivals and traditional ceremonies and things that helped me start to understand the beauty behind my culture and the beauty behind myself as an aboriginal woman. I wanted to do something that could make me feel that I was making the link easier for the youth that didn't have the power, the strength to go off reservation and learn what they needed to learn to bring back to the communities.

6697 At the age of 14, I did some volunteer work and raised money to travel across Belgium and France and offer cultural teachings about our people to help break the ignorance on both behalf, us being ignorant to the French culture and themselves being ignorant to us.

6698 I learned a great deal up there. I learned that through voice and through standing up and speaking and linking with other people, I could learn not only more about myself, but what we needed as a community to rise above.

6699 In the end it came down to media, it came down to coming down with something that was strong enough based that could help my community not feel so alone, that could help all communities feel more as one.

6700 I put my focus into my education to bring myself to a point where I can do just that, that I can help members of my community be recognized, help members of my community have answers to their questions and not feel as if nobody was listening or that they were on their own, that there are many communities out there that, through radio, through television, through broadcasting could join together.

6701 My focus in the end will be film as at the age of 22 I hope to work with a lot of different ways of bringing us together and having what we need to be satisfied. Kanawake is about one hour and a half alongside of my community Odanak where my father is from, and they had never heard of us or thought my nation had never existed. They thought we had been cleared out in 1972, I think -- don't quote me on the date.

6702 It's very hard for me to try to sit here and make you understand my focus, and make you understand what it is that I am trying to do as a 22-year-old youth. I just know that growing up and moving from city, from reservation to reservation, I have seen native people from all walks of life who are walking around in a form of disconnection that is hurtful, that is very painful as a people, where at one second we stand with pride, the next second we stand with fear and shame just because of what is going on around us and our surroundings.

6703 In communities we have so much going on in both negative and positive aspects that it's hard to situate yourself in a place where you are always feeling proud of where you are coming from and who you are. There is so much that takes that idea away from you. At times you feel really proud of who you are and at other times you really just think it would be easier if you weren't raised native, if you were just like everybody else.

6704 My biggest fear moving back to the reservation was being pointed out and being segregated and the fear of not knowing. I have a little younger brother and sister and there is so much in my community being that we are so small in numbers that has been lost and that will probably, because there is nobody out there to want to keep it within my own community that has been lost and it's not there.

6705 I just want to make it easier for my children to grow up having that pride from day one, holding that pride from day one, not growing up having to question it and walk around and say, "Where are all the natives at?". Walking around the city we are so blocked by multicultural areas that it's so hard to know where our brothers and sisters are and I have seen so much that at times, when I first came to the city and talking politics and going to Algonquin College and learning about the Canadian government and world governments, things that at points I would go home and break down in tears and cry and cry and cry because I couldn't understand where I was suppose to stand behind all this, where I was supposed to be with all this.

6706 I want something that can make it easier for our children to be proud of who they are and to know that there is so much positive going on out there, and there are so many native people working so hard for the future of our culture and for the future of our traditions and for our heritage. In my community my language is gone. So much is lost and I look at communities as strong as Kanawake and I say to myself why can't we have that? Where did we go wrong?

6707 And I think that having something that could link stronger communities with weaker communities and bringing something that could maybe give the people that sit back in my community and go, "Well, we are almost gone, let's just give up", if they could just see that they are not alone and that, you know, way out in Adanak, along the St. Francis River, there are millions of native people out there that have this same goal and have a dream for all of us to stand as one and to be heard from every community.

6708 And I guess what I'm trying to say is I think that this -- I know that through media we can build a link between communities that feel lost and feel like they have no power and feel like, you know, there's no hope, by bonding up with other communities that hold the strength and that have been working and have the numbers to pull through in these areas, as tradition and heritage and language and culture.

6709 And, you know, preservation of the culture is a goal for me, especially as the community, it's almost gone. And my little brother and sister, by the time they get to be my age, or, you know, by the time I have my children, if it's not for youth like me and people who are trying to reach this goal together and bring these communities together so that we can lean on each other in times of need and really, you know, make the fight a lot stronger, it's such an importance to me to feel like I can do something like that, to feel that I cannot make the struggle so hard for the younger ones, so that, you know, we can grow up and learn our traditions and not be ashamed of who we are and to know that we have many, many, many people standing behind us and to offer something to make that easy for them to assess. As for now it's so hard.

6710 MS POIRIER: Excuse me, could you please conclude? You're getting over the 10 minutes allowed.

6711 MS O'BOMSAWIN: Oh.

6712 MS POIRIER: Thank you.

6713 MS O'BOMSAWIN: That's it? I'm sorry. Thank you very, very much.

6714 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Pennefather has a few questions for you.

6715 MS O'BOMSAWIN: Okay.

6716 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Good morning.

6717 MS O'BOMSAWIN: Good morning.

6718 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: You can relax. It's okay.

6719 MS O'BOMSAWIN: I can relax. I'm not on the spot.

6720 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: You said that your name was O'Bomsawin.

6721 MS O'BOMSAWIN: It is O'Bomsawin, yes.

6722 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: I can understand why film might be of interest to you. And you were very eloquent and we did hear very clearly what you are bringing to us as the impact media has on disconnection, on feeling of cultural value and importance of yourself, importance of voice.

6723 The only thing I wanted to ask you on is, indeed, you mentioned film and television, and they are very powerful media. What, in your estimation, is the importance of a radio media outlet? In line with what you were saying, where does radio fit particularly?

6724 MS O'BOMSAWIN: Well, when I speak of media, I mean media in all walks of life. Radio is just as powerful as TV, if not stronger because you have to focus on the words, you have to focus on what's being said. There's nothing to babysit the mind or take your attention elsewhere.

6725 As well, radio is a way to offer services that sometimes TV really can't offer, in terms of service lines and in terms of surveys. And TV is something that you more sit back and take in; radio is more interactive, it's more something said and you can, you know, play with phones, it's so much more -- I'm looking for the word -- for lack of a better term -- easy action. It's very more --

6726 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Yeah, two-way.

6727 MS O'BOMSAWIN:  -- commute, you know, you can kind of go back and forth with it.

6728 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Good. No, I understand.

6729 MS O'BOMSAWIN: And it's a lot easier, especially with communities -- not all our communities are -- I know in Kanawake, we don't have cable and, you know, so radio is something that is accessible, more accessible, to all different classes when it comes to native communities.

6730 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you very much for those observations and for coming here this morning. We appreciate seeing you here and hearing what you have to say to us. Thank you.

6731 MS O'BOMSAWIN: Thank you.

6732 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you, Madam President.

6733 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms O'Bomsawin. I must say that despite your declared nervousness, you're more articulate than most of us at this time on Monday morning. Thank you.

6734 MS O'BOMSAWIN: Thank you.

6735 THE CHAIRPERSON: Madam Secretary, please.

6736 MS POIRIER: I would then ask Colleen Thomas to come forward.

INTERVENTION

6737 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, Ms Thomas.

6738 MS THOMAS: Good morning. I'm nervous, as well. I have never done this before.

6739 My name is Colleen Thomas. I'm a Cree woman from Witchekan Lake Reserve in Saskatchewan. I was born there and lived there for the first four years of my life. And I also experienced the relocation, I guess, to a different area of Saskatchewan.

6740 And where I moved to was La Ronge and they have probably one of the largest reserves in Canada. They have like 10,000 registered Indians and not including the non-status Indians that they have there.

6741 When I moved there, I moved to a community that they spoke a different dialect of Cree. They made fun of my dialect of Cree and I lost my language because of that. And I think aboriginal radio could help in highlighting the similarities between our nations because we have a lot of similarities. Our values are the same, we focus on our children in the same way -- like, we value family. The similarities in the way we view the world. Like, we view the world in a circle, with the youth, the elders, the women and the men, and that's the way aboriginal people, indigenous people, all over the world, that's where they come from.

6742 Growing up what I learned was that aboriginal people were savages. That's what I learned in history. And growing up I was abused in any way you can imagine. Like, I had no faith in anything, I had no trust in anything, and it really, really was hard for me to even trust the government because I went to the government when I was 16 and asked for help and I was turned down in three separate occasions from Children's Aid. Because I asked for help for myself and for my sisters.

6743 And I didn't know the help that was available from the aboriginal community. I didn't know and I think radio could help highlight what resources our aboriginal people all over the nation have. And to inform the children because I'm here and I really want to focus on the youth because the youth don't know. We, as adults, don't tell our youth, we don't inform them about anything. We treat them as non-people. But they are people. They hurt, and they often hurt more than we do. And I think if we can give them information that they can access on their own, they would have more options and they wouldn't have this despair that we see.

6744 I mean, you have seen aboriginal youth in the media. All you have seen is they have no hope. And it's true because I have a nephew, his name is Daniel, and what he's learning in his life, he doesn't like being Cree. He would rather be a Metis person because the Metis people stood up for themselves. They said what they want for themselves.

6745 And we don't have any heros, as indigenous people and I think aboriginal radio could bring that to the home in a different way that television can't. Because growing up I had heard about this Keewatin radio from Yellowknife. And the way I heard about it was the lady moved to La Ronge and she was so proud of who she was, I always wanted to be like her because she spoke -- she didn't speak just to adults, she spoke to young people, too.

6746 And I was really, really amazed that there was a Cree woman. And she was from La Ronge and she moved to the north and she went to host this program and I was just amazed that a Cree woman could do that. And this was like in the seventies, late-seventies.

6747 And I guess all I want to say is that radio -- cause growing up as a child I had a radio in my own room. And I listened to the radio a lot and I always wished I could hear her speak on the radio, and I never did.

6748 I think a lot of Aboriginal kids, we take television for granted as people. They don't have televisions, they get pound off, they don't have televisions. They do have radios and they are cheap ones. I mean those are cheap and they can't be. -- they don't really get a lot of money for them pounding them off.

6749 So, I think it's also -- it would be useful in connecting our communities, like the speaker before me said, because in highlighting our similarities we would become -- we could become proud of who we are as Aboriginal people and I know who Aboriginal people are.

6750 I know that now and I learned that all after the age of 20. I never learned that before the age of 20, I didn't know what Aboriginal people were, I didn't like being who I was before the age of 20, and when I started to learn who I was after the age of 20, I was really amazed that Aboriginal people, the values and what they held and how strong it was, but nobody told me that as a child. I had to go and seek it as an adult and I think it's important we inform our youth through any media that we can and the way it's accessible to them too.

6751 I mean, I'm a Web designer and that's what I do. I'm doing that as well through the Web because it's accessible, but I think any media that we can to inform our youth about the options that they have is important and that is all I have to say.

6752 Thank you for listening to me.

6753 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Thomas. Commissioner Noël.

6754 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Thank you, Ms Thomas, for your -- I'm looking for the English word and it doesn't come up, that's Monday morning -- I will say témoignage in French.

6755 So, what I gather from what you told us this morning is that for you the radio is an economical way of building some pride in your communities. Is that the main essence of your message?

6756 MS THOMAS: Yes.

6757 COMMISSIONER NOËL: And a sense of sentiment d'appartenance, a sense of belonging?

6758 MS THOMAS: Yes, affiliation to more than just yourself to a broader scale because we don't often -- in our communities, we don't see ourselves as part of a larger community; we only see ourselves as part of a local, and very segregated in our local as well.

6759 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Thank you very much.

6760 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Thomas and your colleague, and we appreciate your coming to speak to us this morning.

6761 MS. THOMAS: Thank you.

6762 THE CHAIRPERSON: Madame la Secrétaire, s'il vous plaît.

6763 MS POIRIER: Thank you. I would now ask Rooney Productions.

INTERVENTION

6764 MR. ROONEY: Madam Chair, members of the Commission.

6765 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. It's Mr. Rooney?

6766 MR. ROONEY: Yes. If you didn't indulge me, I would like to begin with a little parable.

6767 Some years ago, a group of Crees visited a Mohawk community to play an important lacrosse game. The national Aboriginal championship with the two best teams in the land. Now, the night before the big game the Mohawks, as befits a host, put on a big feast for their guests. And, because they were an agricultural community, to show the generosity of their bounty they had to put on a spread that was far more than the assembled company could possibly eat.

6768 The Crees, on the other hand, were from a hunter\gatherer culture and to them it was an insult to their hosts to leave any food uneaten.

6769 So, you can imagine the picture. Every time the Crees cleared their plates the Mohawks were forced to serve the more food. They were the Crees, stuffed to the gills, forcing themselves to eat more and more, thinking to themselves: "These Mohawks are trying to embarrass us by giving us more food than we can possibly eat."

6770 Meanwhile, the Mohawks are thinking: "These goddamn Crees are trying to embarrass us by eating everything we put in front of them so they can show just how stingy we are."

6771 Well, of course, the next day, with a bunch of over-indulged players, the quality of the lacrosse game left much to be desired. But this story illustrates that cultural misunderstanding can exist not only between Aboriginal people and us, but also between different Aboriginal people themselves. And the national Aboriginal radio network would certainly go a long way towards dispelling some of these misunderstandings.

6772 Now, I am not of Aboriginal decent and so I don't feel qualified to speak on behalf of Aboriginal cultures. However, there are a couple of things I would like to share with you on that issue.

6773 Ten years ago, I was asked to produce a Concert for Indigenous Restoration at Toronto's Royal Alex theatre. It was part of a three-day conference on the environment that featured elders, chiefs and shamen from the Amazon to the Arctic. This event required a funding mix of private and public monies along with ticket sales and I thought it was appropriate to apply to the Ontario Ministry of Multiculturalism.

6774 I tendered an application and I was duly telephoned by a Ministry project officer who told me that she couldn't possibly consider our proposal because it was not multicultural it was just "Indian". I responded by saying "Oh, so that's your problem with these people.". But she became quite nervous -- I mean, bureaucrats often do become nervous when you suggest that they might be making the wrong decision -- and she asked, defensively. "What do you mean?"

6775 I said: "Well, if you put a Haida, a Mohawk, a Cree, an Obibway and a Mi'kmaq in a room together, I think they would consider that quite a multicultural gathering."

6776 Needless to say we got the funding.

6777 But my point is that there are a lot of traditional cultures in this country that do not have adequate access to the public sphere through our airwaves.

6778 My second point about the culture is that over the years I have had the good fortune to work with many of this country's leading artists, including Thomson Highway, Buffy Ste. Marie, Graham Greene, Susan Aglukark, Tom Jackson and many others. Not only do these people represent important role models for Aboriginal people but I am sure you would agree that they have enriched all of us with their significant contributions to mainstream Canadian culture. The fact that they managed to do so in the face of what must have seemed insurmountable odds at the start of their respective careers speaks to the tenacity of their artistic vision.

6779 Through its proposed national network Aboriginal Voices Radio offers a significant stage from which all Aboriginal artists will have the opportunity to speak to us and to one another.

6780 Why do we need a national network? Until now, Aboriginal radio has been restricted to local community stations serving their local communities. But there have been a marked demographic shift in this country's Aboriginal populations. The artists I have just mentioned all had to move to our cities to pursue their artistic careers. It is estimated that as many as 70% of Canada's native peoples now live in urban centres. The last census reported that 38,000 of them live in the National Capital region alone. And I'm sure they don't all work for the AFN and the Federal government. I am sure that when the current census is completed we will find that number has increased significantly.

6781 It has often been said in defense of the CBC that it reflects the country back upon itself. Well, I for one get a substantial amount of my information and news from listening to CBC Radio and I think it does a sterling job, but we still need a broadcast environment that truly does reflect the nature of this country in all its aspects. Otherwise, we would not need a broadcasting commission.

6782 Now, this Commission has already recognized the importance of wider Aboriginal access to media by granting Aboriginal Voices Radio licenses in Toronto and Calgary. But if they are to make a real contribution to the palette of available information, they need an Ottawa license. After all, this is the seat of government, it is the headquarters of Aboriginal political leadership. It's where our policy makers live and work. And I would suggest that, with the controversial changes being proposed in the Indian Act, Ottawa is an important venue in which to hear the public Aboriginal voice.

6783 The recent Supreme Court Corbière decision gave Aboriginal people living off-reserve the right to participate in the political life of their local community. But how can they do that without information? An Aboriginal radio network serving the Aboriginal communities would be able to fulfil that need.

6784 But apart from the national sport of politics, there are other important issues like diabetes, AIDS, substance abuse etc. that Aboriginal media can address. A national network would clearly be in a position to provide quality programming on these sorts of subjects -- the kind of quality that is beyond the financial wherewithal of small community radio stations.

6785 The final report of the Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples stressed the importance of public awareness in advancing issues and concerns of Aboriginal Peoples. It also said that this could be more effectively achieved by a greater representation of Aboriginal people working in the media.

6786 People making this application are not simply looking to work in the media they are looking to own and operate. And that's a significant distinction.

6787 As a former Clerk of the Privy Council told me in an interview last week, the primary purpose of good government is to share the wealth and to share the opportunity.

6788 I would like to conclude this morning with a quote from the English author Philip Pullman:

"All the history of human life has been a struggle between wisdom and stupidity. The rebel angels, the followers of wisdom, have always tried to open minds. The authority has always tried to keep them closed".

6789 Now, I am sure it's not the raison d'être of this authority to keep minds closed, but it has come to my attention that there is a private broadcaster at these hearings that has pledged in its own application to significantly fund Aboriginal Voices Radio.

6790 I am sure you will recognize the value of Aboriginal Voices Radio and grant them their Ottawa licence, but if you truly have the courage of your convictions, you will also grant the licence request of this private broadcaster so that these rebel angels can truly fly.

6791 Thank you for your patience.

6792 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Rooney.

6793 I would hope that we don't have our minds closed, but if they are a presentation such as yours and those we heard this morning should open them a larger crack.

6794 MR. ROONEY: Thank you.

6795 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for coming.

6796 Madame la Secrétaire, s'il vous plaît.

6797 MS POIRIER: Thank you, Madam Chair.

6798 The next intervention will be presented by Ted Montour Communications.

INTERVENTION

6799 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, Mr. Montour.

6800 MR. MONTOUR: Good morning.

6801 Madam Chair, Commissioners, Madam Secretary General, Counsel, Commission staff. I thank you for the opportunity to appear before you this morning.

6802 I also want to give thanks and acknowledgement to the people of the Algonquin Nation in whose territory we meet today.

6803 Aboriginal Voices Radio has placed itself in a unique position in the Canadian radio broadcasting universe, as a matter of both mission and necessity. I want to talk today about the community and the audiences to be served by an AVR broadcasting outlet in the Hull/Ottawa region.

6804 As I indicated in my original letter to the Commission, I have worked as a communications and public policy consultant in the National Capital for some 15 years now. I have been an advisor to Aboriginal and non-aboriginal clients, First Nation governments and businesses large and small.

6805 Prior to beginning my consulting practice, I spent ten years in the federal public service as a program and policy advisor and a manager. I have also served two terms as the President of the Board of Directors of the Odawa Native Friendship Centre in Ottawa.

6806 A considerable proportion of my work has been with the media in the National Capital, both Parliamentary and otherwise, as well as with journalists and media outlets elsewhere in Canada and the United States.

6807 One of my most recent posts was as public and community relations advisor for the Ottawa Rebel professional lacrosse club of the National Lacrosse League. I am also a volunteer minor lacrosse coach and media advisor to minor, junior and senior lacrosse organizations.

6808 I believe it is essential for Aboriginal Voices Radio to have a present in the Ottawa/Hull market for several reasons.

6809 The Aboriginal community here has grown and diversified to a considerable extent in the years since I first arrived in 1975. What was once a relatively small community composed primarily of employees of the national aboriginal organizations, public servants and students now numbers well in excess of 30,000 and includes technology specialists, professionals and entrepreneurs.

6810 I have had the opportunity to be involved in every round of Aboriginal constitutional discussions since 1985 and I can say with the authority of that experience that Ottawa/Hull and Canada will benefit significantly from an Aboriginal perspective on politics and current affairs and, yes, I am implying that that perspective is not presented consistently or objectively by the mainstream Canadian media.

6811 This is not to say that an Aboriginal broadcast media outlet is needed for balance,but rather that the media outlets in the Capital and Canada have been less than diligent in seeking that balance, and indeed living up to the relevant terms of their CRTC licences.

6812 The Aboriginal community here will also, I am certain, take every possible advantage of the opportunity to produce original local programming for both our own local consumption and for distribution across the AVR network, reaching back to our various home territories.

6813 We can look forward to the growth of an Aboriginal Ottawa/Hull multilingual radio production industry, with the attendant social and economic benefits that will flow from that growth.

6814 Personally, I look forward to the day that an Aboriginal broadcast team brings to the Canadian sports audience our own presentation of Canada's national sport, lacrosse, the Creator's game.

6815 On a more personal note, I have some comments to make about the applicants. Gary Farmer, the force behind the AVR network, is one of the best known, multi-talented and productive artists in Canada.

6816 He has applied the benefits of his personal success as an actor, producer, director, writer, publisher and community broadcaster, to enrich the lives of members of his home community, and mine, the Six Nations Grand River Territory.

6817 He has also, by his efforts in collaboration with, and on behalf of his fellow Aboriginal artists, extended his influence to every corner of Turtle Island.

6818 The community radio station back home, CKRZ-FM, "The Voice of the Grand", was founded by Gary and a small group of enthusiastic volunteers who have kept it running and flourishing to this day. Those of us who have joined and supported him on behalf of AVR have all, I am sure, done so as much out of our personal respect and friendship, as for any other community or professional reason.

6819 The AVR team, of which I am proud to be a part, has presented a persuasive and thoroughly professional case for the licensing of a national network, as well as an Ottawa/Hull service. They have met with previous success before you in Toronto, Vancouver and Calgary, and I urge you to give every consideration to this application as well.

6820 I would also like to add my voice to those who have recommended to you the application now before you from AVR's partner, Newcap. Newcap has been a supporter and backer of AVR's efforts since its initial application in Toronto, and the commitments that Newcap has made for the application of benefits and resources from its operations to the establishment and ongoing efforts of AVR are unprecedented and unequalled in the Canadian broadcast industry.

6821 Let me conclude my remarks by repeating my thanks to all of you for the opportunity to speak today. Merci, Nya:wen.

6822 I am prepared to answer any questions you may have.

6823 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Montour.

6824 Commissioner Pennefather.

6825 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you, Madam Chair.

6826 MR. Montour, you have this morning answered the questions that I had coming out of your letter which you sent to us.

6827 I only had one further question to just clarify currently what the Aboriginal production industry in this particular market is like, the talent available in radio, television, and so on.

6828 Could you expand a little bit because you do make a point about that in both your letter and today's comment.

6829 MR. MONTOUR: To my knowledge, the current pool, if you will, of talent and professionals is distributed among the mainstream media operations in this area -- technical, talent, professional and otherwise -- and I think that given that foundation, if you will, the volunteer Aboriginal sector will join forces with those people who are already in the broadcast business to develop and produce the local programming that we hope will help this network flourish. I certainly look forward to the chance to do that.

6830 I am not all that certain as to numbers when it comes to people but, as I said, they are scattered throughout the mainstream outlets and production facilities here and nearby. So I would fully expect it wouldn't take long for people to take up this challenge at all.

6831 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you, Mr. Montour.

6832 Thank you, Madam Chair.

6833 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

6834 Thank you, Mr. Montour, for coming to see us this morning.

6835 MR. MONTOUR: Thank you again.

6836 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Rooney.

6837 MR. ROONEY: Yes, I --

6838 THE CHAIRPERSON: You have to come to the mic --

6839 MR. ROONEY: Oh, I am sorry.

6840 THE CHAIRPERSON:  -- because all of that will become transcribed.

6841 MR. ROONEY: Okay.

6842 THE CHAIRPERSON: I think you may have had a couple of minutes left from your ten minutes.

6843 MR. ROONEY: Oh, thank you.

6844 Just in response to that question, I do a lot of work, here in Ottawa, producing information, videos and radio for government clients. I work with a number of Aboriginal talents in this community and I think there is a pool in English, French and Inuktituk of about 30 that I know of who are already working here.

6845 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Rooney.

6846 Madame la Secrétaire.

6847 MS POIRIER: Thank you, Madam Chair.

6848 Carleton University, the Centre for Aboriginal Education? No?

6849 We have an addition to the list. CBC requested to appear so if they are ready to appear, I would like them to go forward. They requested a few minutes to set up, like two or three minutes.

6850 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

--- Pause

6851 MS POIRIER: Are the interveners for Harvard in the room right now, like Council for the Arts in Ottawa, Menzies Mixed Media, Great Canadian Theatre Company? No one in here? Thank you.

--- Pause

6852 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Nous continuons avec une intervention de Radio-Canada.

6853 So we will proceed with the CBC intervention.

INTERVENTION

6854 MR. MONTY: Merci, Madame la Présidente, members of the Commission. Thank you for your patience and thank you for allowing the CBC to -- giving the opportunity to explain to AVR's technical parameters, with the frequency 95.7, would affect the CBC's Radio One service in eastern Ontario.

6855 My name is Paul Monty and I'm senior officer, Regulatory Affairs of the CBC. And to present our intervention, with me is Suzanne Lamarre, senior manager, Corporate Engineering, CBC.

6856 MS LAMARRE: Thank you, Paul.

6857 Let me first set out the current situation, then I will explain how AVR's proposal would affect not only the CBC signal from Cornwall, broadcasting on 95.9, but also CBC radio service in eastern Ontario, and compromise service to 3,000 people.

6858 The existing situation. First, our Radio One service in Ottawa, CBO, provides a reliable signal to the southeast as far as Monkland. Our broadcasting transmitter in Cornwall, CBOC-FM, relays the service where CBO-FM no longer reaches. In between there is an overlap area that is necessary to ensure a reliable service area so that one of the two transmitters may provide a better signal in pocket areas where the other provides a weaker one. It also gives the traveller some transition time as he or she moves away from one signal and into the other with no interruption of service. Finally, there is a vacant frequency on 95.9 allotted to Renfrew.

6859 The 95.7 frequency is currently allocated to Gatineau as a Class A channel. If it were transmitting from Gatineau, as established in the FM allotment plan, it would not interfere with CBOC-FM, Cornwall.

6860 CBOC-FM is not currently operating at full class parameters. If it were, our maximum coverage would be the dotted line. And Industry Canada's Broadcast Procedures and Rules protect our signal to this extent. The full line is the existing coverage and our objections with AVR's proposed parameters relate to this existing coverage only.

6861 Our CBO-FM coverage, in blue, as you see, overlaps with CBOC-FM, Cornwall. However, this overlap is not free from interference. In fact, a Montreal FM station causes some interference with CBO-FM, so part of the area covered by CBO-FM, Ottawa, needs to be backed up by CBOC-FM, Cornwall. More than 1,000 people live in that area around Maxville.

6862 The reason why the overlap area between the Cornwall and Ottawa signal is critical and why we cannot accept the interference that AVR's proposal would cause is as follows. Coverage calculations are predictions that the level of a signal calculated will be present at a certain location. In broadcasting, these coverage predictions are valid for 50 per cent of the locations 50 per cent of the time, so, in effect, at the coverage limit, where we draw the line.

6863 The signal level is lower than its predicted value over half the time. To ensure the reliability of the reception in an environment where interfering signals are present, this characteristic is compensated by another one: the protection ratio set forth in Broadcast Procedures and Rules. This prediction method is at the origin of the necessity for overlap coverage in a network arrangement.

6864 If all of the official coverage contours were to meet at their limit and not create any overlaps, as theoretically shown on this map, it would appear to provide seamless, uninterrupted service on paper, but, in reality, with no overlaps, coverage would be discontinuous in some places. This is why, especially in populated areas, some overlap is necessary to ensure reliable coverage in those areas that sit at the edge of the two signals.

6865 Now, let's look at what AVR's consultant proposed and the impact it would have on the reliability of our coverage. Here is in red, the outer circle, the location of the proposed interfering 95.7 signal from Ottawa. Our CBO-FM, Ottawa, coverage has been set aside for now on this map. Here it is again in blue. We can see from this map that the proposed location of the interfering signal not only significantly exceeds the one from the original Gatineau allocation, it even goes a little bit beyond the coverage of CBO-FM from Ottawa.

6866 Let's remove the signal from Gatineau and concentrate on Cornwall and Ottawa. The signal from 95.7 from Ottawa will create an interference zone within the protected existing coverage of CBO-FM. This interference zone includes not 1,500, but almost 3,000 people. Adjacent to this interference zone is another area where the interfering signal from 95.7, Ottawa, will reduce the reliability of the reception of CBOC-FM. This zone, which is not considered as an interference zone by the rules, is nonetheless an area where reception problems are likely to occur should 95.7 be implemented as proposed and where the CBO-FM, Ottawa, signal may not always be able to provide a good replacement. Why? Because as explained earlier, prediction of coverage is based on 50 per cent of location, 50 per cent of the time probability.

6867 AVR's consultant has proposed to decrease the power to 6 kilowatts. This power reduction would reduce somewhat the interference zone, but the affected population remains above 2,000. AVR's consultant claims that his proposed parameters are spectrum-efficient. However, the parameters would affect the reliability and continuity of our Radio One network coverage and it would diminish the intrinsic value of the 95.5 megahertz frequency in Cornwall. Furthermore, it will cause the deletion of an allocation on 95.9 in Renfrew.

6868 For these reasons, we disagree this proposed parameters would be spectrum-efficient. Spectrum efficiency does not only mean maximizing a given coverage area of a frequency. It also means minimizing the detrimental effects on existing protected coverage and on FM allotments. I would add that in designing the best possible parameters, efforts to prevent any prejudice to an existing coverage should be made at the outset, rather than attempting to fix a posteriori a problem that can be avoided right from the very start.

6869 AVR's consultant has focused his design on the Camp Fortune transmitter site. It is clear that if any attempt to avoid harmful interference to our Cornwall signal is to be made, Camp Fortune needs to be ruled out as a transmitter site and the search has to be made for another site. There are a number of radio communication sites and building roof-tops in the Ottawa/Hull region and a search for a suitable site should quickly meet success.

6870 In fact, some applicants present at this hearing have done so. And to illustrate the great potential of such attempts, we have analyzed the results of using one of these other transmitter sites for the coverage of 95.7. As shown here an effective radiated power of 8 kilowatts from a site located in Hull, with an omni-directional antenna, would cause no interference to CBOC-FM from Cornwall. It would also protect the Renfrew allocation up to a 30-kilometre radius. It would provide coverage to the area AVR proposes to serve. All in Ottawa would be within the 3-millivolt-per-metre signal level and the 500 microvolt per metre signal would reach almost a million people. Here is a more detailed map of this area, a map that looks much better on paper than on the screen.

6871 Here is a more detailed map of this area, a map that looks much better on paper than on the screen.

6872 We are not saying that this would be the solution for AVR, but doing this exercise shows that Spectrum efficiency can be achieved without prejudice to existing protected signals.

6873 In concluding, I would like to talk about the CBC's track record with respect to Spectrum coordination with other broadcast licensees.

6874 Considering that the CBC operates four radio networks and owns and operates close to 40 per cent of all FM transmitters in Canada. An application for an FM frequency is very likely to dealing with CBC either for frequency coordination or for site sharing purposes.

6875 Given the need to limit the proliferation of transmitter sites and the increasing scarcity of the broadcast spectrum, I can say that we have always viewed and treated the coordination opportunities as a public responsibility. Industry Canada and canadian broadcasters can rely on us. So can our listeners, present and future. They can depend on our vigilance to ensure a continued quality of service.

6876 This is why we respectfully submit that should the Commission approve the use of 95.7 in Ottawa for AVR or any other applicant, it should also require that the technical parameters meet the broadcast procedures and rules requirements and thus, avoid causing interference to the signal of CBOC-FM.

6877 Thank you, madam Chair, members of the Commission, for your attention.

6878 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, madame Lamarre, monsieur Monty. Madame Lamarre, est-ce que -- it is possible to test to actually see whether the theoretical contours which show possible interference is actually there or not?

6879 Is it possible to test ahead of time or is that too difficult?

6880 MS LAMARRE: It is possible, but our past experience with similar situations leads us to a firm conviction that it will exist, it will be there. Also, as you pointed out when we look at realistic parameters, results can be different. And when we use realistic propagation models to determine the position of the Ottawa signal, there is, in fact, no overlap between the Cornwall signal and the Ottawa signal.

6881 THE CHAIRPERSON: But this is on paper. Then, is it possible to do some actual testing?

6882 MS LAMARRE: It is possible to do some testing, but given that it's a first adjacent frequency, the area is so large and encompasses so many people that it is almost unrealistic to think that it would be possible to adjust every problem that may come up, present and future.

6883 THE CHAIRPERSON: And future, especially. When you talk about rules for adjacency projection, you are aware of the review of those rules that Industry Canada is making. Would it make any difference if the rules were relaxed?

6884 MS LAMARRE: Well, I am a member of the committee that is looking at the revision of those rules and along with the CRTC, the Commission, and Industry Canada consultants, private broadcasters and I can tell you that the review that is currently being looked at does not include a review of the first channel protection criteria.

6885 That criteria is recognized as being necessary as it is now and there is no attempt, it won't be changed.

6886 THE CHAIRPERSON: It won't be changed.

6887 THE CHAIRPERSON: So, you do agree that 95.7 can be used for the purpose intended, but basically it would have to be used, according to your last slide, from a different site.

6888 MS LAMARRE: Yes. It is not the only solution. The one that we have brought up today was just to demonstrate that there are different avenues. Camp Fortune, which is an interesting site, has its advantages and disadvantages.

6889 Of the of the disadvantage is that it would be difficult to, if not impossible, because I can tell you it's probably impossible to implement in direction of antenna on the tower. There is no room on the tower for this.

6890 THE CHAIRPERSON: Do you have room for an omnidirectional, but not a directional.

6891 MS LAMARRE: There is currently an omnidirectional and what is planned is to actually use that on the directional antenna and there is really no room to accommodate an additional antenna.

6892 And looking at other sites, that was one, that was one example, but there are numerous examples that can be used and using probably even a directional antenna or omnidirectional antenna. There is tremendous possibilities of maximizing our coverage while keeping the prejudice to a minimum.

6893 THE CHAIRPERSON: In your last slide, is this example from French Hill, which is the site suggested by Mr. Belzile?

6894 MS LAMARRE: No. It is -- well, I do not know, I cannot tell you it is the site that was proposed by Radio Nord for channel 250.

6895 THE CHAIRPERSON: That was proposed.

6896 MS LAMARRE: She is an engineer. I look at coordinates, I do not look at street addresses.

6897 THE CHAIRPERSON: Les latitudes et les longitudes. Although Radio Nord is on an another frequency?

6898 MS LAMARRE: Yes, although they are on another frequency.

6899 THE CHAIRPERSON: So, that is the site that they are now using on 97.9?

6900 MS LAMARRE: That is the site that was proposed for us, yes, yes.

6901 THE CHAIRPERSON: And so, what you are saying is there are solutions?

6902 MS LAMARRE: There are solutions.

6903 THE CHAIRPERSON: What is proposed is not acceptable to the CBC, but there could be solutions in using this frequency in a manner that you would find acceptable and not threatening interference now or in the future?

6904 MS LAMARRE: Absolutely.

6905 THE CHAIRPERSON: I do not have any further questions. I do not know if my colleagues have. Counsel has.

6906 MR. RHEAUME: Merci, Madame la Présidente. Madame Lamarre, briefly, just one clarification. It appears that you also have another solution which would be a power reduction, which is set out in your letter of April 11, third paragraph to Mr. Matthews', could you show the Commission on the map what that would mean, your third paragraph, the solution that you proposed there?

6907 MS LAMARRE: We did not bring a slide to show this, I'm sorry, but we can provide one by tomorrow, if you wish, later tomorrow. But it would reduce -- the power reduction that was proposed in our letter was from the Camp Fortune site and by doing so, it reduces, as compared to the original coverage that the applicant was proposing. It reduced the coverage in quite a significant manner.

6908 This is why we are saying that Camp Fortune has to be ruled out if the application is to use this frequency while achieving their coverage target.

6909 MR. RHEAUME: Thank you. Merci, Madame la Présidente.

6910 THE CHAIRPERSON: Madam Lamarre, I take it from your comments earlier that the CBC remains open to trying to resolve this and discuss this matter with the applicant.

6911 MS LAMARRE: Yes.

6912 THE CHAIRPERSON: In a manner that maximizes under that frequency without causing interference. So, it's not a dead-end yet.

6913 MS LAMARRE: No, it is definitely not a closed issue.

6914 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. We appreciate your coming so that we have a better understanding of the issue and, of course, Mr. Farmer will have -- and his team may have some comments too in reply. Thank you again.

6915 MS. LAMARRE: Thank you.

6916 MR. RHEAUME: Merci beaucoup.

6917 THE CHAIRPERSON: Merci. Madame la Secrétaire, s'il vous plaît.

6918 MS POIRIER: Thank you, madam Chair. I would like to ask if the intervenors for the Harvard applications are in the room. So, I guess we will move on to Frank Tessier.

INTERVENTION

6919 M. TESSIER: Madame la Présidente, membres de la Commission. Mon nom est François Tessier. Je suis de Pulsate Music Inc. Je suis ici en faveur de NEWCAP Broadcasting, pour l'application 200102872, pour un format Dance Music.

6920 Je suis personnellement un ex-employé d'une station de radio de la région qui avait le format Dance Music et qui a changé de format pour cause de décision de leur maison maître à Montréal.

6921 Suite à mon objectif et pour honorer le format Dance Music, c'est alors que j'ai décidé de quitter l'emploi et puis d'aller promouvoir et puis d'ouvrir une compagnie de disques dans le format Dance Music.

6922 A ma grande surprise, mes croyances étaient une grande réussite. Nous avons parti un groupe qui s'appelait Capital Sound en 1993-94 qui s'est rendu internationalement et, en plus, rapporté le Juno du best dance recording en 1994 dans la région d'Ottawa pour la pressier fois.

6923 Suite à ces grands succès, j'ai fait la formation d'autres groupes qu'on connaît bien, M.G. Roxy, Nadia, qui sont tous de la région et qui ont, eux aussi, eu beaucoup de nominations, sans oublier les disques d'or sur compilation de grandes maisons de disques majeures.

6924 Si je retourne dans le passé, j'aimerais vous laisser savoir que dans l'Outaouais, malheureusement, nous n'avons pas eu beaucoup de reconnaissance parce que le format d'une station Dance Music était absent ou est toujours présent, absent.

6925 Dans la région de l'est de l'Ontario, lorsqu'on allait là le tapis rouge se déroulait pour accueillir tous mes artistes.

6926 Ce que NEWCAP veut établir comme format de station de radio est en grande demande dans l'Outaouais. Le Dance Music est une grande source de revenus mondialement autant qu'au niveau national.

6927 Je suis une maison de production qui est basée dans l'outaouais, j'aimerais pouvoir dans ma propre ville avoir la satisfaction et le même succès que j'ai à Vancouver, Winnipeg, Toronto, Burlington, toutes les places au Canada où ils ont une station de format Dance Music.

6928 Je ne crois pas qu'une station Dance Music pourrait affecter les autres stations qui sont disponibles sur la bande FM dans la région puisque c'est la seule place où le format Dance Music pourrait avoir de la reconnaissance.

6929 Madame la Présidente, membres de la Commission, je ne peux pas en ajouter plus. J'ai tout simplement le désir de voir la naissance d'une station Dance Music dans l'Outaouais et je suis en faveur, encore une fois de l'application que NEWCAP présente au CRTC. Merci.

6930 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci, monsieur Tessier. Madame Pennefather, s'il vous plaît.

6931 CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER: Merci, Madame la Présidente. Monsieur Tessier, merci d'être avec nous aujourd'hui. J'ai juste une couple de questions de clarification. Je pense que vous venez de dire que le format Dance n'est pas disponible, mais est-ce que la musique -- est-ce qu'on peut entendre ce qu'on peut dire les artistes en Dance Music à la radio, dans le moment?

6932 M. TESSIER: Si on peut entendre des artistes Dance Music à la radio?

6933 CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER: Oui, oui, même si le format comme vous venez de dire, le format n'est pas disponible, mais est-ce que, en effet, les chansons, les sélections, les artistes Dance sont disponibles maintenant à la radio à Ottawa-Hull?

6934 M. TESSIER: Le dance a plusieurs catégories et puis si on regarde le dance visé directement, il n'y a aucune station dans Ottawa qui joue vraiment du dance. Il ne faut pas confondre le pop qui peut souvent sembler être dance, mais il n'y a pas de station qui joue du dance directement, qui tourne du dance.

6935 CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER: Je suis intéressée aussi de savoir, parce que je pense que votre carrière maintenant ce n'est pas promoteur et producteur de Music Dance, qu'est-ce que c'est la présence des artistes en dance à Ottawa, localement? Est-ce qu'il y en a? Est-ce qu'il y en a beaucoup? Ils ont quel âge? Où est-on rendu dans le bassin d'artistes en dance localement?

6936 M. TESSIER: Dans Ottawa il y a, si on regarde les artistes qui sont restés, on parle toujours de certains membres du groupe Capital Sound qui sont les récipiendaires du Juno en 1994 qui viennent tout juste de sortir un produit qui est danse, "Chill Danse", qui s'appelle "Bluetonic World", qui d'ailleurs vient d'être en licence et en grande demande en Allemagne, et nous nous retrouvons aussi sur plusieurs compilations ici au Canada.

6937 Ces artistes-là, malheureusement, sont toujours reconnus à l'extérieur de l'Outaouais et souvent à l'extérieur du pays. Il y a beaucoup d'autres artistes danse qui sont encore actifs, mais on n'en entend pas parler parce que justement dans la région on n'a pas de format.

6938 Oui, je peux vous les nommer, il y a "Roxy", il y a "Bluetonic World", qui est l'ancien "Capital Sound" qui sont toujours actifs et puis actifs avec succès.

6939 CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER: Merci.

6940 Merci, Monsieur Tessier.

6941 M. TESSIER: Ça me fait plaisir.

6942 CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER: Merci, Madame la Présidente.

6943 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci, Monsieur Tessier, d'être venu nous voir ce matin pour ajouter aux présentations de la Phase III.

6944 M. TESSIER: Merci, Madame la Présidente.

6945 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci.

6946 Madame Poirier, s'il vous plaît.

6947 MS POIRIER: Thank you, Madam Chair.

6948 The next intervention is presented by the Canadian Urban Music Festival Incorporated.

INTERVENTION

6949 MR. ADÉ: Good morning, Madam Chair.

6950 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning.

6951 MR. ADÉ: Commissioner.

6952 My name is Wale Adé, I am the Executive Director for the Canadian Urban Music Festival, and we are here to intervene for the Newcap broadcasting licence for dance urban music in the National Capital Region.

6953 Today, with me I have two of the artists that happily would benefit from such a radio station in terms of helping Canadian artists locally.

6954 The Canadian Urban Music Festival basically is --

6955 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Adé, are you going to introduce them to us?

6956 MR. ADÉ: Oh, I am sorry, Madam Chair. As you can see, I am really nervous. I am not used to this.

6957 MR. BARKER: My name is Bingie Barker.

6958 THE CHAIRPERSON: I am sure you are used to bigger crowds than this.

--- Laughter / Rires

6959 MR. ADÉ: Yes, but you know, sometimes this is more formal.

6960 THE CHAIRPERSON: It's the number of feet above the others that makes you nervous.

6961 MR. ADÉ: Basically.

6962 Anyway, this is Bingie Barker. He has been performing over 20 years in the music industry in reggae and he is originally from Jamaica and he has an album out that is not getting any airplay so far in Ottawa, and the Mighty Popo, originally from Africa, and has been performing for over 12 years and he has two albums out with no airplay locally and they are both getting international airplay.

6963 Definitely by approving Newcap's application, it would definitely change a lot of things in the National Capital Region and it would equalize basically what the rock and roll and other stations are getting in terms of airplay, in terms of financial revenues, in terms of economic situation. It will basically equalize the playing field -- or level the playing field.

6964 Basically -- can I go on, Madam Chair? Ah, okay, thank you very much. I'm having a good time now.

--- Laughter / Rires

6965 THE CHAIRPERSON: It doesn't take long to warm you up.

--- Laughter / Rires

6966 MR. ADÉ: Actually, you just made me feel comfortable, that's why.

6967 THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, that's good.

6968 MR. ADÉ: I appreciate that.

6969 Basically, the Urban Music Festival started four years ago with the mission to promote and increase the awareness of urban music and culture in Canada and to assist urban artists gain exposure in Canada and worldwide, for a positive urban attitude, racial harmony and unity, for a greater understanding and appreciation of our multicultural society and basically raise the National Capital Region into a major centre for urban music in Canada.

6970 So far we have showcased over 100 artists in the National Capital Region alone, without any major radio support. We have been to most of the existent radio stations locally and they just basically shut us down in terms of, "This is not what we play. We play top 40, we play country music". So basically, with the introduction -- I mean, with Newcap's application, I think we have at least a partner because we also basically have a common goal in terms of our mission statement and in terms of our agenda and that's one of the reasons why we feel strongly about Newcap's application for a dance urban radio station in the National Capital Region.

6971 Also, I will just let my colleagues here basically say a few words in terms of themselves that way you can get to at least connect with them too.

6972 Bingie, please.

6973 MR. BARKER: Madam Chair, members of the Commission.

6974 My name is Bingie Barker, as Wale told you. I have been in the Ottawa area for the past 27 years and provided entertainment, music, employment for quite a number of people -- it has been 20 something years -- without local airplay. I am pretty sure that with Newcap's interjection in the city we should get some airplay and we can increase our clientele and, of course, spread the vibes all around.

6975 Thank you.

6976 MR. ADÉ: Mighty Popo.

6977 M. POPO: Bonjour à tous, bonjour à toutes.

6978 Bon, je vais parler en français parce que je me sens plus confortable.

6979 Je suis un artiste qui fait la musique du monde. Avec Newcap, bon, c'est une grande promesse pour moi avec toute la communauté afro-africaine d'Ottawa que je représente ce matin.

6980 Bon, avec Newcap on aura la chance d'être connus, d'être écoutés par une radio commerciale parce que, en somme, notre musique passe mais ça passe toujours dans les radios universitaires ou à Radio-Canada.

6981 Avec Newcap ce sont de nouveaux horizons. C'est pourquoi je suis ici ce matin pour supporter ça.

6982 Merci.

6983 MR. ADÉ: Thank you, Madame Chair, members of the Commission.

6984 As you can see, most of these artists are talented artists. They have been working out in their craft for so long and it's very difficult for them to get their products to the people that really appreciate it. Without any airplay it's very difficult for them to make a living in terms of -- I mean, most of the time when they even get international recognition they always come back, "What are you doing at home? Is there any radio station playing your music at home?", and the answer to them is basically no, and with your approval of Newcap, I am certain that all that will change for them.

6985 I actually made a couple of notes here. By you granting Newcap a licence to operate on 89.9, the Planet, they would definitely be able to bring the whole planet together in the National Capital Region and Newcap basically will have to promote and celebrate our diversity.

6986 Newcap will help develop Canadian artists from this region because they have pledge to put in, I believe, $2.5 million into developing Canadian talent and most of them are going to come from this region.

6987 Newcap -- this is funny, I said, Newcap is the future of what radio should be with their employment equity commitment because this is one thing. I mean, being somebody that deals with all the radio stations in terms of looking for support for the Festival, I believe that most of the radio stations that I have visited have very little minorities, if at all, employed in their corporation. Newcap promised to change that.

6988 Newcap will be a dream come true in the National Capital Region to most of the local artists. Newcap will keep everyone dancing 24/7 -- and I love to dance -- and I know that maybe some you like to dance too, if you were to grant them the licence to operate on the 89.9 FM bandwidth. Dance music definitely improves everybody's morale because that's why everybody goes to the islands on vacation because it's stress-free, and also to wrap it up, Madam Chair, basically the Juno Awards this year kind wrapped up and said "We are paying an overdue tribute to Canadian urban artists" basically because they have been around for so long -- 30 years -- and it's only this year that they actually recognized basically what is positive and what is past overdue. We also have basically, Dan here, one of the main record pool executives with us tonight, I mean this morning.

6989 With your approval, Madam Chair and members of the Commission, the National Capital Region can enjoy the same kind of tribute. I mean, we can all say that we have done our share.

6990 Thank you very much. I appreciate your time and thank you for making me feel comfortable today.

6991 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Adé, and your colleagues, for adding to our process.

6992 I am sure you are not used to appearing before anybody so early in the morning.

--- Laughter / Rires

6993 MR. ADÉ: Definitely not. I guess we work all night and by this time we are still sleeping.

6994 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

6995 MR. BARKER: We are night owls.

6996 THE CHAIRPERSON: I am surprised at how awake actually your colleagues do look.

6997 MR. BARKER: Not too bad.

6998 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

6999 MR. BARKER: Thank you very much.

7000 MR. ADÉ: Thank you.

7001 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Madame la Secrétaire, s'il vous plaît.

7002 MS POIRIER: The next intervention will be presented by Len Puckerin and Ben Jammin.

INTERVENTION

7003 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, Mr. Puckerin.

7004 MR. PUCKERIN: Good morning, Madam Chair and members of the Commission.

7005 My name is Len Puckerin and my associate is Ben Jammin.

7006 I am here today to present my case in the assistance of Newcap obtaining a licence here in our capital region.

7007 I have been a disc jokey promoter for the past 20 years in our Ottawa region. Due to different means and ways of promotion, I have been able to get our information out whether we have live artists, disc jockeys performing in our Ottawa area.

7008 For 20 years, I have been performing dance music in numerous clubs within the Ottawa/Hull area and I think if we had some form of station being able to play that music, I would have been able to attract more people and a larger audience within our dance music.

7009 In 1985, I embarked on bringing music to the streets by requesting that the NCC allow us to have permission in one of our local parks where I brought the music, the disc jockeys and everyone performed whether it was calypso, reggae, latin music, and it did blossom until today. I am able to pass it over to my friend Ben Jammin who is involved with break dancing, where he uses the same dance music in order to flourish or blossom their activities.

7010 MR. JAMMIN: Madam Chair, members of the Commission, ladies and gentlemen.

7011 If I can speak for everyone just to say quickly we might speak too close to the microphone because we are used in speaking in microphones at our community radio stations that don't always work. So we might approach the microphone too much. So I apologize for everyone that that might happen to.

--- Laughter / Rires

7012 MR. JAMMIN: As a late night radio DJ --

7013 THE CHAIRPERSON: That's a lesson to Newcap.

--- Laughter / Rires

7014 MR. JAMMIN: As a late night radio DJ for the past four and a half years in Ottawa's longest running hip-hop show on the Ottawa University community radio station, CHUO, and also DJeing in the community for almost 20 years and break dancing when it first came out back in the '80s, I follow obviously this whole trend of what is happening and was very honoured to be asked to be on this panel.

7015 Again, as a late night radio DJ only having had one hour and a half of sleep last night with my hours being two to six in the morning, I am fighting the weight of the bags under my eyes and fighting my brain to be coherent with you this morning.

7016 I am very excited to be here. We have made it this far even to be amongst this panel right here. I am very excited. So I am not tired, but I might be nervous and excited to be here.

7017 I have a few from the same reason why I'm here now, why I'm awake, probably just a few quick stories from the heart and soul of this industry. And it's funny, I was telling my dad the other day I was going to be here and he found that ironic considering that when I was younger and we used to travel around and out of the country, I would always ask him, when we had the radio on I would always ask and complain to him, "Why don't we have music like this in Ottawa? Why don't I hear this style of music in Ottawa?". So he found that ironic that I would be here on this panel today hoping to have a station like this in Ottawa.

7018 Before I continue, first and foremost, I would like to commend the CRTC for staying, as much as they can, up to date, making the effort to keep up with the styles of music that change, that has continued to evolve throughout this industry.

7019 Without going in too much to the details of the fragmentation of this dance music, as you will be hearing, instead of going into those details, a quick example. I'm sure you are all familiar with the Back Street Boys. The Back Street Boys, for example, which you would hear on Kool-FM, you will hear various different styles on, say, take one song from the Back Street Boys, and then you have many artists, producers, remixers, that change this style of song into, again, this various fragmentation that's happening within the dance music scene and many people that would not listen to this Back Street Boys on Kool-FM would love to hear it on a station like this, where right now they are hearing it maybe sometimes on Ottawa universities' or other community radio station. And there is a whole other target market that would love to hear this genre of music and would not even realize they are listening to Back Street Boys, or some that do realize that it's a total different genre of music that is not expressed through commercial stations like Kool-FM. So definitely not taking away anything from them, that is one of the reasons that I believe that this station is greatly needed.

7020 I have been DJing again the scene for 15 years. Even though being a governmental town, I have played to people like maybe yourselves. Other government people that I know love to get out and relax and it's part of what keeps the heart and soul grooving of these governmental people when they get out in the night life. Believe me, you would be surprised. You would be surprised.

7021 THE CHAIRPERSON: So would you!

--- Laughter / Rires

7022 MR. JAMMIN: So, basically, my mom and dad could vouch for me on the predictions that I have had, in terms of being in this industry. To give you a quick example, the rap artist, instead of working within an electronic beep-box machine or digital drum machine, predicting effusions of a rap artist, rapping lyrics to a live band, in the same regards I have faith that the CRTC will see that we have come to this time where this fusion of new styles of dance music, would be much appreciated and needed in Ottawa.

7023 And I know you are used to just sitting here watching or listening to people. Can I give you a five-second demo right here of what people would be doing if we had this station? Could I conclude with that?

7024 THE CHAIRPERSON: Absolutely.

7025 MR. JAMMIN: All right. This is, for Madam Chair and members of the Commission, just a quick demo of -- imagine the station is on the air right now and here is what you would be seeing across the city.

--- Applause / Applaudissement

7026 MR. JAMMIN: I thought I would just enlighten you with a little entertainment, since you are used to seeing people sitting and talking to you. So I hope you enjoyed that. My point was many people would be flipping to have this type of station here in Ottawa. Thank you.

--- Applause / Applaudissement

7027 THE CHAIRPERSON: If I'm expected to do this, you are not getting a licence!

--- Laughter / Rires

7028 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Cardozo.

7029 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Yeah, but Mr. Jammin, wouldn't you be surprised if I got up and did that for you!

--- Laughter / Rires

7030 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: A couple of questions. Thanks very much for both of your presentations.

7031 You are DJs in the business and I wonder if you could just define for us what you see is dance music and the kind of music you would like to hear from NEWCAP if they were licensed. You talked about a few forms like calypso, rap, reggae and hip-hop. Is that it? Are there more?

7032 MR. JAMMIN: I think, again, I was trying to save time on further fragmentation of this music. There are various styles and genres of music that I believe I will let my other colleague speak on, that I'm kind of more in the break dancing scene, teaching break dancing heavily right now and am more within, actually, the styles that you have mentioned, but there are various more that -- it has so fragmented that I would not even speak on it, I would let some other individuals answer that questions because there are various styles that I don't want to sit here and take up too much time to discuss.

7033 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Well, no, not necessarily what their application is, but what I'm just looking for is: what would you like to see -- what would you like to hear, rather?

7034 MR. JAMMIN: All the different styles that I have heard. Something again, like I said, you take a regular Back Street Boys' song and it's made in so many different versions, styles of music: house music, underground, trance, different styles that aren't represented on Kool-FM, so I would love to hear these styles that are even somewhat -- some of them do cross over into commercial, but there are some that stay underground, and those are the styles that aren't seen, that aren't heard on Kool-FM, for example. So many of these styles is what I would love to hear.

7035 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Puckerin?

7036 MR. PUCKERIN: For this year's Blues Festival, we are having James Brown and Joe Tex, I think, and that this is one avenue where we would have a certain style of music which is not yet played very much being heard to the public and maybe more people will come out knowing that these performers are being present in our city this year for the Blues Festival.

7037 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. I'm wondering if within the sort of dance urban field, which is quite a large range of music, are there already things which are yesterday's kind of music or dance and thing which are today's? You mentioned you are teaching break dancing and I'm wondering if there is perhaps less break dancing, more and more hip-hop. Anecdotally, I just seem to see more ads for people who are teaching hip-hop, as opposed to break dancing. Is it fair to say that people are moving more to hip-hop and break dancing was a bigger thing a few years ago? Is there a constant progression within the music over time?

7038 MR. PUCKERIN: There is a constant progression. And as far as the dance music has evolved, we know how people using dance music for aerobics and every format or every style which has a fast beat or a moving beat which is continuous, it does take place from one segment, explode into our present time.

7039 MR. JAMMIN: Yes, I'm very happy you asked that question and I have the chance to explain this to a CRTC panel. And the fact, something that everyone may not be aware of, is hip-hop is a culture right now. It's more than just a music. You have hip-hop, which is a culture, and in this culture you have the music, which is rap, and then the break dancing, as you have said, that I do. So these are all elements that have grown into a culture and the break dancing is part of the hip-hop culture. So it is all growing and fusioning very fast. Like, I have gone from one class last year to four classes, two with beginner and advanced classes this year in break dancing. So as it, you know, somewhat -- yet some people don't like this -- but commercializes a bit, you might have seen break dancing on Pepsi, GAP commercials, for example, so it's getting more popular, and therefore only expanding and growing as a culture.

7040 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay, and that leads to an interesting debate, and I don't want to have the whole debate, but there is a debate on there as to what should be played on a dance/urban music station. Should it be more hip-hop culture or should it be the kind of -- the cultural music that comes from the Caribbean? And hip-hop does, too, but if you take the more, if I can use the word, traditional calypso/reggae, is there -- should it be more hip-hop, more calypso/reggae, soka?

7041 MR. PUCKERIN: Well, I think all the music is verging into one body. And whether it be calypso/soka, they will all have found a sort of common ground to embody themselves into this one unit of dance music.

7042 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: But if you have a station that plays more sort of hip-hop breaking dancing stuff, do you think you will hear from people who say, "Hey, you're not playing enough reggae/calypso/soka", who will want to hear more of that?

7043 MR. PUCKERIN: I'm not sure that will exist because the dance music format that NEWCAP is actually embodying, I think will house and embody all those various style of music that is considered dance music.

7044 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay.

7045 One other question. You have talked about the enthusiasm that you see -- and the previous witnesses talked about that, too -- in terms of the people who make the music, the people who go to the clubs in the genre of music, the people who run the community radio stations or the campus radio stations. I just want to ask you, do you think there is a larger community out there which is large enough to support a commercial radio station? Because the number of people who go to clubs and who are DJs and so forth may be quite large, but they are not large enough to support a commercial radio station, which requires many more people. Is it your sense that in this area there are enough people who are interested in this kind of music?

7046 MR. PUCKERIN: I agree there are enough people interested in this area because last year we had the Fabulous Five that came from Jamaica as a tribute to the Tulip Festival and we had a number of people coming out to not only view their style of music, but if there was more radio play of these artists, more people will know about them.

7047 MR. JAMMIN: And without having the club scene, people that like to stay home -- I have many friends and friends of family, parents, that enjoy the music, the different genres of music, but do not go out to the club, but radio gives a whole different format to listen to, right -- they don't have to go out to a club to enjoy this music, which is only found in some clubs right now --

7048 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Yes.

7049 MR. JAMMIN:  -- some underground formats, they will actually have the opportunity to enjoy it on the radio, where they would feel safer at home, right, and that is definitely in demand.

7050 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. Well, thanks very much. I assume that if this station were to be licensed, Mr. Jammin, you will be back soon for a television station so that the public can also see your break dancing.

7051 MR. JAMMIN: I'm working on that, too.

7052 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thanks.

7053 MR. PUCKERIN: Thank you, Madam Chair --

7054 MR. JAMMIN: Thank you very much for your time.

7055 MR. PUCKERIN:  -- and members of the Commission.

7056 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Puckerin.

7057 And as for you, I hope you have a well deserved afternoon nap!

--- Laughter / Rires

7058 MR. JAMMIN: Thank you very much.

7059 THE CHAIRPERSON: Madame le secrétaire, s'il vous plaît.

7060 MS POIRIER: The next intervention is presented by ABM Company, Mr. Daniel Caudelron.

INTERVENTION

7061 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. It's Mr. McLaughlin.

7062 MS POIRIER: No.

7063 THE CHAIRPERSON: No?

7064 MR. CAUDELRON: Cain.

7065 THE CHAIRPERSON: Cain? Mr. Cain.

7066 MR. CAUDELRON: My name is Daniel Caudelron.

7067 THE CHAIRPERSON: Oh, yes, I remember you now.

7068 MR. CAUDELRON: Yes. I have been asked to appear.

7069 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we had a different name, but now I remember. You have appeared before us before.

7070 MR. CAUDELRON: Thank you for remembering, Madam Chair.

7071 Unforgettable. No, with all levity aside, I want to wish the Commission a good morning.

7072 Madam Chair and members, my name is Daniel Caudelron. I have appeared before you before and I have been invited this time by my friend from Ottawa, Frank Banker, who heads the Ottawa Dance Pool, Record Pool. And I'm here to speak as a proxy for Elorious Cain, in support of the NEWCAP broadcasting application.

7073 I am the founder and director of the Chair DJ Pool in Toronto, which is now 24 years old. I am a past director of CARAS, the Canadian Academy of Recording Arts and Science, and the 2001 recipient of the Walt Grelis Special Achievement Award and the latest inductee into the Canadian Music Hall of Fame as an industry builder who has worked to advance artists from the dance arena.

7074 From my many years of experience, I can personally attest to the following. First, that dance music celebrates diversity, drawing from various cultural musical sources and influences and, as such, gives each contributing cultural group a measure of pride and equality. Dance music broadens the individual's appreciation of the various roots of the music and, as such, the dance floor is a great unifier.

7075 Secondly, Toronto now has an urban station, Calgary has recently been licensed for a dance music station. A dance music station for the nation's capital will provide a boost to the dream of a national network of written music on radio.

7076 Thirdly, and a subject of personal pride, and something that has been very close to my heart, is that of Canadian talent -- the need for Canadian talent to reach fruition and to blossom, particularly in the dance arena, where there is a vast well of Canadian dance artists who currently receive no mainstream radio play. We, literally, have hundreds of dance music artists working in the shadows and marking time. We would like to see them move forward.

7077 Commissioners, I urge you to help them step up into the spotlight to succeed, and to thereby build a strong viable dance music industry in this country. And I think if we had Ottawa joining the dance battle and taking us another step forward, we will soon reach that spotlight and we will reach that blazing light for dance music.

7078 I thank you for your time and I want to thank my friends here in Ottawa in the Dance Pool for keeping dance alive in the nation's capital and for being generous with the time and very courteous to invite me here today to say these words and to extend the general invitation to the nation to come dancing with dance music in 2001. Thank you very much.

7079 MR. Cain already has a dance program on CKCU-FM, right, or are you aware of?

7080 MR. CAUDELRON: I am aware of Elorious Cain.

7081 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. And if there were a dance radio station, would you expect that this -- what is now an alternative music style, I guess, it is claimed that it is not available otherwise, would it continue on the university stations, do you think?

7082 MR. CAUDELRON: Frankly, I could not say what university program is it going to do when commercial radio comes in, carrying a particular kind of music. I would imagine you look at the places that I have been licensed, when you have a format such as in Toronto where we have now got an urban format, what happens to all the campus stations that were carrying the music on a small scale.

7083 I imagine that they just go deeper underground because no matter how commercial one can get on the front burner, there is always going to be the inventiveness of the music that is going to come with something more subterranean that needs an outlet and I guess campus stations will have a place and will be able to flourish and carry that alternative.

7084 There will always be an alternative to whatever becomes the main stream and as viable as the main stream may be musically and aesthetically, I'm pleasing there is always going to be tomorrow's hottest. Today's great supporters of dance are going to have children who will be even more inventive and are going to say, dad, that stuff you have got, that is blimey, so there is always another step forward.

7085 And so, there will always be room for the main stream and the underground.

7086 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Cardozo has a few questions for you.

7087 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I just have one question, Mr. Caudelron and you mentioned the national network of rhythm music developing and I am wondering if this would be the third station you would have milestone in Toronto, which is part owned by Standard and then the Calgarian station owned by Standard and then this one would be owned by NEWCAP, whether the different companies would still have a national, not in a strict sense, but I mean you sense that there would be a sharing of music among them.

7088 MR. CAUDELRON: Well, I mean, from the point of view of the listener, that they would get a sense that it a network developing and from the point of view of the fan, from the point of view of the producers, the writers, the creative people with whom I particularly emphasize, they would feel that, you know, we can go to this town, we go there, never mind who owns.

7089 The issue is -- the sentiment is the same. Music is the healing force, music is the driving force, music is what we came here for. Never mind A owns it, B owns it or C owns it. That's for the dance fans, for the dance composer and for the dance creator, it is not a matter of who owns. It is a matter of who is going to play it and will they play it consistently.

7090 And if you have three cities and then you have four ultimately every major urban centre in Canada, big city ought to have a dance music station and if they are owned by 20 people, the one commonality is dance, the desire to dance and the need for the fans, the audience to dance. Never mind Joe Blow.

7091 Does it matter what cereals you eat in the morning, whether it is Kellogg's or this other company, you choose your cereal every morning, everybody has a breakfast. Every day you have got to listen to music and get an infusion. And I am not sure that you have to know that everybody is owned by the same person.

7092 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: No, I am not arguing for that, but I am just wondering, given that there are different owners, you feel that there is a community out there?

7093 MR. CAUDELRON: Absolutely.

7094 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Of producers.

7095 MR. CAUDELRON: The producers, the artists, the listeners, the audience, the dances, the users of the system do not sit down and care about the ownership. They do not need to know who they ownership is. That is a different issue altogether to them. It is the music and as long as they are true to the original mandate of the music that they came here for, and the stations are playing that I think, it will hold through. You dance on.

7096 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Ottawa has considered has a reputation of being a very stayed town, but as Mr. Jammin was telling us just before you, there is also a wild side to this area.

7097 MR. CAUDELRON: I imagine.

7098 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Do you think there is a wild enough side for dance music?

7099 MR. CAUDELRON: Absolutely; not just a wild side, I think a necessary -- a necessarily adventure stall that is growing. When I first came to Ottawa in 1982 and it might have been stayed then, I don't think this city is stayed, not from what my friends of the dance pools tell me, not from what I see of the artists that I have heard and met and seen.

7100 Debbie Fredericks comes from Pembroke nearby, she does some terrific dance music. There are people burgeoning and creating music at home right home and I'm sure that all of the people that you have seen and heard today and will meet in here today will confirm the fact that just because this is a capital city that was created for a particular political purpose, it does not mean that roots do not grow there. They go past the concrete and all of the niceties and they grow roots deep that flourish, that go whichever way they want and they are taking the music forward, they are taking dance to everyone and they are making people wake up.

7101 Ottawa is not a civil service city any more. It is going to be the dance capital of Canada.

7102 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Now, if we were to licence this, just make sure you go and sing that for me from the top of every mountain because nobody would believe you.

7103 MR. CAUDELRON: I would be happy to do so. Just give me the appropriate beat and I will be there.

7104 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thanks very much. Thanks, madam Chair.

7105 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Caulderon.

7106 MR. CAUDELRON: Thank you very much.

7107 THE CHAIRPERSON: Nice to see you again.

7108 MR. CAUDELRON: I appreciate that. Thank you.

7109 THE CHAIRPERSON: Madame la Secrétaire, s'il vous plaît.

7110 MS POIRIER: Merci, Madame la Présidente. I would now ask Club Caliente.

INTERVENTION

7111 MR. RACICOT: Madam Chair, members of the Commission, thank you for hearing us this morning. My name is Jason Racicot. I have been an active member in the dance community for over 13 years now. I have worked in many clubs, disc-jokeying till late hours in the morning.

7112 Since then, I have progressed to remixing and producing different artists and the fact that NEWCAP may be granted a licence would offer me an avenue to have my remix projects played on that station.

7113 Currently, no stations play that sort of music. As one of my colleagues mentioned earlier, I take music in a pop form, as I mentioned it was Back Street Boys, and will add a twist to it and it becomes a whole different version. No stations currently play that type of music.

7114 The fact that they want to promote the disc-jockey and stand behind them is also really exciting for me. Several stations over the years have stepped up and tried to appease that type of format. Unfortunately, it failed. They have all, you know, sort of gone away from it. They have gone top 40 or adult contemporary. They never really stuck with that type of format and I know when I listen to those stations, I was really pumped and excited about it. Unfortunately, they have gone away.

7115 So, it's really exciting again to know that there is a new company that is interested in starting that format.

7116 MME LÉONARD: Bonjour, Madame la Présidente et membres de la Commission. Je m'appelle Josée Léonard et je suis un D.J. depuis une vingtaine d'années dans les dance night clubs et puis je trouve que ce serait une très très bonne acquisition d'avoir une station de dance car maintenant nous avons seulement quelques heures dans la région avec une diffusion de Toronto et Montréal qu'on peut entendre des D.J. et puis ils font beaucoup de promotions pour les artistes de Toronto, Montréal. On connaît plus les artistes de ces régions-là que nos artistes.

7117 Juste un exemple, comme à la télévision, on a eu un programme qui s'appelait Pop Stars et puis nous avions un artiste de la région qui s'appelle Jessica Hawell qui a été nominée la dixième sur 4 000. Personne ne la connaissait dans la région.

7118 En ayant une station de dance comme ça, on pourrait avoir plus de promotions pour nos artistes de la région et puis D.J. Je vous remercie de votre attention.

7119 M. GONTHIER: Bonjour, Madame la Présidente et membres de la Commission. Je m'appelle Stéphane Gonthier. Je travaille dans les clubs de nuit depuis les quatre dernières années et je travaille dans la communauté en tant que dis-jockey mobile depuis les neuf dernières années.

7120 Tous les soirs, du mercredi au samedi soir, moi, les types de musique que je joue c'est du dance et pop. Ce que NEWCAP veut offrir à Ottawa puis qu'est-ce qui est vraiment intéressant pour tous les dis-jockeys de la région d'Ottawa-Hull.

7121 Avoir une nouvelle station va nous aider à vendre ces artistes-là, les nouveaux artistes qui veulent commencer dans la région, les promouvoir. Promouvoir ce style de musique qui a vraiment un gros potentiel, qui est vraiment toujours en augmentation puis ça va aider à promouvoir les artistes locaux et aussi canadiens.

7122 Étant disc-jokey, réalisateur et "remixeur" de musique, je crois qu'avoir une station comme celle que NEWCAP veut offrir, ça va donner une grosse possibilité aux auditeurs de la région de pouvoir écouter cette musique-là 24 heures sur 24, si désiré, sept jours sur sept et que ça va vraiment comme aider aussi, tu sais.

7123 Le monde vont aller dans les clubs puis ils vont demander aussi ce style de musique. Ils vont l'entendre à la radio, ils vont aller acheter l'album. Ils vont -- ils vont l'entendre, ils vont savoir exactement qu'est-ce qui en est puis après ça, ils vont arriver au club, o.k., monsieur D.J., est-ce qu'on peut entendre telle, telle chanson?

7124 Puis, moi, en tant que disc-jockey et étant dans le record pool de Frank ici, je vais avoir cette chanson-là et je vais être capable de la jouer pour cette clientèle-là.

7125 Donc, avoir vraiment une nouvelle station à Ottawa, ce serait vraiment comme le meilleur puis ce serait vraiment une bonne chose pour tous les passionnés du dance music puis ça va vraiment être une nouvelle chose, une nouvelle station à tourner, lorsque désiré. Merci beaucoup de votre attention.

7126 THE CHAIRPERSON: Merci et c'est monsieur Racicot?

7127 M. RACICOT: Monsieur Racicot, oui.

7128 THE CHAIRPERSON: Monsieur Racicot, madame Léonard et monsieur Gonthier. Madame Pennefather.

7129 CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER: Merci, Madame la Présidente. Bienvenue les D.J. d'Ottawa. Juste une petite question. Vous avez mentionné que vous faites souvent les remix. Un autre exemple qui a été donné tantôt, un remix de Back Street Boys.

7130 Étant donné que c'est les stars pop et on les remix pour que ça ait un son dance. Est-ce qu'il n'y a pas peut-être un danger que le format devienne plutôt pop que dance? Parce que ça semble avoir alors une description assez large.

7131 M. RACICOT: Présentement, il y a beaucoup de versions pop. Mais si dans les formats que nous on joue au club, c'est jamais les versions qu'on entend à la radio comme cela. C'est toujours des différentes versions comme house, progressive, underground puis ce qu'on appelle "dance" qui est plus up-beat.

7132 Ce n'est pas les versions pop, c'est pas les versions radio ou les versions intégrales, ça fait que je ne pense pas. C'est le concept d'une station dance et de jouer ces formats-là, ces versions-là, pas les versions traditionnelles qu'on est habitué d'entendre.

7133 CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER: Puis la deuxième question; vous êtes dans les clubs ou bien le club ici, c'est quel âge les gens qui sont là? Qui y vient?

7134 M. GONTHIER: Moi, ma clientèle part, parce que je travaille du côté d'Ottawa, part officiellement de 19 ans jusque environ 27 ans, donc j'ai une très grande variété puis j'ai une très grande variété de musique. Donc, étant NEWCAP offrant une certaine variété de musique qui est dance puis qui tourne un peu aussi sur pas mal le R&B puis le hip hop, ça va aider de ce côté-là.

7135 CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER: Madame, est-ce que c'est le même?

7136 MME LÉONARD: Oui. Moi, c'est entre 19 ans et 35 ans, je dirais. Je travaille dans la communauté gaie, je travaille dans un club gai à Ottawa où est-ce qu'on a deux jours semaine entre 500 et 1 000 personnes. C'est très très populaire.

7137 M. RACICOT: Je pourrais aussi ajouter qu'il y a aussi les plus jeunes, en partant de 15 ans à 18 ans qui n'ont pas la possibilité d'aller dans les clubs, mais qui aiment quand même entendre et écouter ce genre de musique. Ils peuvent avoir l'opportunité maintenant.

7138 CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER: Merci. Merci, Madame la Présidente.

7139 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci, monsieur Racicot. Ce sera plus facile pour la force policière comme ça.

7140 M. RACICOT: Oui, ça éliminerait des problèmes des fois.

7141 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Ceux qui n'ont pas 19 ans pourront rester à la maison. Merci, madame, messieurs. Madame la Secrétaire, s'il vous plaît.

7142 MS POIRIER: Bernard Trudeau, s'il vous plaît.

INTERVENTION

7143 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Bonjour, monsieur Trudeau.

7144 M. TRUDEAU: Madame la Présidente, je suis ici comme propriétaire de club pendant 20 ans de temps. J'ai avec moi Shalini Kelly qui était le directeur de musique pour mes boîtes de nuit.

7145 J'ai pas plus à ajouter que ce que j'ai mis dans ma lettre, juste à dire que la musique que nous, on jouait, c'était pour jusqu'à 50 ans. Il n'y avait pas tous des jeunes. Nous autres, on commençait `20 jusqu'à 50 ans puis il y a un gros besoin dans le moment pour une station de dance.

7146 Puis il y avait une question, c'est qui qui joue la musique dans le moment? C'est les clubs de nuit. C'est eux autres qui font découvrir la musique aux gens qui, après ça, demandent pour aller l'acheter. Je vais passer à Shalini Kelly qui va vous expliquer plus; moi, je suis juste comme propriétaire.

7147 MS KELLY: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. As Bernie has said, my name is Shalini Kelly. I am coming here not just as a D.J., but also as a music listener.

7148 I have been working as a D.J. on a part-time basis for the past ten years and would have noticed that it was not only really fun for me to go and play the music, but also to meet the people who came to the club to listen and enjoy the music.

7149 I found that in the past, clubs were kind of deplaced to hear new music, dance music, somewhere where they could have fun, listen to something new, listen to new music styles, new versions of existing songs, new formats and it always amazed me in my visits to other cities and other -- my other colleagues of mine have mentioned the fact that they have gone to other cities such as Montreal, Toronto, New York, wherever, and they have been able to flip to dial all over and hear all kinds of dance music and I come back to Ottawa and we have nothing like that, and one would have to go to the club or go to places like Downtown Records which promoted dance music. Those sort of served as dance music stations per se where people could go and pick up new music, listen to something new.

7150 Ottawa, I found, has had a bit of a conventional coverage of music. They have catered to certain groups -- country music, rock music, alternative, talk shows, sports, whatever -- but there has never been a real dedication to dance music and I think that's really lacking because in all my years I found that people are wanting to hear that, and more so now.

7151 A lot of my friends, my colleagues, they are club goers, they are dance music listeners. They are out on their lunch hour buying the new CDs. They can't get that music on the radio so they have to go buy these CDs and if they had this venue to listen to music, I am sure they would be really thrilled. In fact, some of my colleagues have written you a letter in support of Newcap's application and I think what they are looking for, what I am looking for, what we are all looking for is being able to tune into one station where we are going to hear all this music that we love or even discover the new music that we will love.

7152 Thank you.

7153 THE CHAIRPERSON: Ms Kelly, is it your experience that the interest goes also beyond the younger demographic?

7154 MS KELLY: This is actually one of the points I was thinking about. If you can see here the people that have appeared here today, and we even talked about it this morning, and how diverse the group is not only in culture and styles of music played, but in age. You might think of me as one of the younger people, but I am somewhere in the middle and I find that this interest goes -- my mother is so into dance music and I think Ben was saying that a lot of people don't want to go out to the clubs, but they want to have that opportunity to hear this music and radio is the way. Ottawa needs it.

7155 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

7156 Thank you, Mrs. Kelly et Monsieur Trudeau pour votre présentation ce matin.

7157 M. TRUDEAU: Merci.

7158 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Nous allons prendre une pause maintenant d'une quinzaine de minutes.

7159 Nous reviendrons dans 15 minutes.

7160 We will be back in 15 minutes. That should be about 11:30.

7161 Thank you.

--- Upon recessing at 1115 / Suspension à 1115

--- Upon resuming at 1135 / Reprise à 1135

7162 THE CHAIRPERSON: We will proceed with the next intervenor.

7163 Madame la Secrétaire, s'il vous plaît.

7164 MS POIRIER: Thank you, Madam Chair.

7165 The next intervenor is presented by Rtran, Ranjan Kelly.

INTERVENTION

7166 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, Mr. Kelly.

7167 MR. KELLY: Good morning, Madam Chair, members of the Commission.

7168 My name is Ranjan Kelly and I would like to thank the CRTC for allowing me to appear today in support of a dance music station for Ottawa/Hull.

7169 My way of introduction, I have my own company which provides direction, product and service in a number of areas, especially music and entertainment.

7170 I previously worked with the federal Canadian government in a managerial capacity, but throughout my professional law career I have been involved in a parallel career by night in music. This includes being a musician, songwriter, club DJ, even coordinator and also promoter of dance music with the Ottawa Record Pool as a co-director.

7171 I was really excited to hear about this Newcap application and my letter written to the CRTC on April 29th elaborates on what I feel my convictions and they are all from a personal perspective and if I may, I would like to elaborate on them here today.

7172 As a musician, I want to say that it's not just club goers who like this kind of music. Non-club goers also like dance music and I will give you a couple of examples.

7173 We all know rock superstar Bruce Springsteen. He was considered the future of rock and roll in the 1970s, but it was ten years later when he became a superstar and that was with the dance club hit "Dancing in the Dark". In this same way John Lennon of the Beatles was asked in 1975, long after they broke up, "What are you listening to now?" and he said, the current disco hit of the day which was "Shame, Shame, Shame".

7174 I used to DJ at the Four Seasons Hotel at a club called Sasha's and we had rock artists staying there and they would come to the club after the concerts and they would come up and request dance music songs.

7175 I grew up in rock and roll and jazz, played in bands, I still write music, but when I turn on my CD player, when I turn on the radio I want to hear upbeat, feel good dance music.

7176 As a DJ over several years at many clubs in this city, we trailblazed many aspects of different dance music, from disco to urban to European and Latin sounds. It's an umbrella term. It captures everything -- Latin sounds, world beat -- and I can elaborate on that later, if you would like.

7177 But it brought together a diverse clientele of people from all walks of life, groups and cultures and age groups varied from people who were 18 to people who were in their 50s. People would come up to me and say, "Where can I buy that song?", and I said, "You can't. I'm sorry. I just mixed it live". It wasn't available commercially. And they would ask us to make a tape or something like that because that was the only way they could hear it.

7178 But there were cities like New York where they were playing remixes like this, and I know the Planet, which the Newcap is proposing will be able to satisfy that demand.

7179 Let's look at events. I was involved with fashion shows. They used dance music to complement the models as they walked up the runways and they still do.

7180 I mean, if you look at high-tech seminars, if you look at sports commercials, if you look at other entertainment events, they are using dance music instrumentals to provide that vibes, and I know that the Planet could do the same thing.

7181 I have been the Ottawa Record Pool also and I have been promoting music with their dance music companies, with DJs, with other Pool directors, and they all want to see this music go forward, but they need radio's help and today commercial radio in Ottawa wants to stick to a proven and safe sound, which is okay, but that's why we need a station which will play cutting-edge music.

7182 Many artists are better known in other countries -- and I will cite an example. I was travelling a couple of months ago in India in a town called Goa where they have a very heavy club scene and I heard dance music being played there by Canadian artists. And I said, "This is sad. These artists are not even being heard over here in Ottawa and they are being heard in India". If the current music stations cannot understand this, we need a station like the Planet.

7183 The big cities have their dance stations and the Canadian industry is telling us the music industry, dance music industry, "When is Ottawa going to join the world?".

7184 Let's look at the workforce. The workforce is predominantly civil servants, as we all know, but I worked with them and they go out at night and they love these sounds, I know that. There are work environments all over that allow the playing of music radio and they would love to play dance music during the day if they could. After work they go for exercises, aerobic workouts, dance music is being played. In office parties, you get a mobile DJ playing to all kinds of ages of people, dance music again. Driving home from work, they want up-tempo songs.

7185 I made a list of clubs the other night, and I came up with 65 on my own. Let's add to that what other people would say and maybe we have 100 clubs. On a Friday night 200 people go to each club and you can see the numbers that are happening. Saturday we get some different people, so you add a few more thousand to that.

7186 Now, if you look at the last 20 years, people have been going to clubs so you have all those people too and they haven't stopped -- they may have stopped going to club, but they haven't stopped liking the music. They still like it. So we have a huge, huge number of people out there who want to listen to this music.

7187 These numbers incidently do not include people who go to university clubs, live band venues. There are singles bars that play non-DJ music which is dance in nature and, of course, there is dance studios that also provide a clientele for this kind of music.

7188 Finally, if we look at the ethnic multicultural minority factor many of the different sounds we have today in dance have an international component and the NCR is diverse with a multitude of cultures and ethnic populations. Other genres of music cater just to a specific audience, but overall the Ottawa/Hull listening audience is significantly diverse and a dance urban station would go a long way towards establishing a common listening ground.

7189 Last but not least, my experience as a DJ is that women in particular love to dance and thrill to the sounds in the clubs. So why are we not meeting the need for so many different minority groups of people?

7190 Finally, look at the commercial radio playlists. We have similar artists that you mentioned like Madonna, Janet on commercial stations, but we hear the water-downed versions, we don't hear these remixes that are so creative. We hear these songs long after they have been broken in clubs, but people have to wait several months to hear them on the radio when they could have heard them long before that.

7191 I just feel, as my colleagues feel, how long are we going to have to wait? Will we have to wait another few years? Why can't it be now? Why can't we be there?

7192 And most important of all, there are hundreds of artists, Canadian artists, local artists, with their songs that are not being heard by people on an ongoing basis and they deserve that chance.

7193 To conclude, the key to all this is the Newcap application. They have given an excellent presentation which I was fortunate enough to be at, and Newcap's innovative ideas and intention to enhance the Ottawa cultural music dialogue and commitment to support local artists can be nothing but win-win-win for all concerned for Ottawa/Hull and its status as a relevant 21st century city, for its people and economy and for the CRTC in recognizing and enabling the city's overall music rainbow vision.

7194 The dance community is very big and very close though in terms of spirit and passion. Many of my colleagues here have to be commended for taking time out to come here. There are artists who would have loved to have been here, but they have to support themselves and they couldn't take time off from work.

7195 My final word. Let people hear what they love. Simply put, people love to dance. Why? Maybe something I read long ago might help to shed some light.

"Dance combines all of the arts. It has the grace of a ballerina, the drama of an actor, the form of a sculptor, the lines of an artist and the rhythm of a musician".

7196 Thank you.

7197 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Kelly.

7198 Madame Noël.

7199 COMMISSIONER NOËL: So Mr. Kelly, they don't roll the side walks in Ottawa at 4:30 every day.

7200 MR. KELLY: Sorry, I didn't hear you.

7201 COMMISSIONER NOËL: I said they don't roll the side walks at 4:30 in Ottawa any more. You have clubs at night working.

7202 MR. KELLY: I am sorry. I didn't understand. I beg your pardon.

7203 COMMISSIONER NOËL: I said contrary to the common thought, they don't roll the side walks at night. There are clubs working at night.

7204 MR. KELLY: Yes.

7205 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Many clubs.

7206 MR. KELLY: Yes, that's right.

7207 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Mr. Kelly, when you say that the commercial radios play Madonna or Janet, or other artists in a "water-downed version", what do you mean by "water-downed"? Is it the words that are changed, the music, the beat?

7208 MR. KELLY: No, it's not the water-downed version. Basically, an artists composes a song and sings it the way it was written.

7209 What happens after that -- and if you allow me to talk about this, is a record company sees a song, it has potential, or a DJ producer sees this has potential to become really big on the dance floor. So they invite DJs, such as those you have heard today, to submit a variation of that song. They take b-tracks, drum tracks, other electronic sounds, and make that song almost different and they submit these to the record companies who allow them to make these remixes and then they press these and send back to the DJs, ten versions of the same song. They are eight minute in length, ten minutes, 15 minutes in length, and say, "Here, tell us what is the best version and we will release that commercially".

7210 So before all that happens, the DJs are playing these in the clubs and people are hearing these sounds. They might put a techno field to it, house-field -- I am sure you have heard these expressions, but they are part of the whole umbrella term of dance -- and it combines maybe a rap sort of beat, perhaps another version of the same song has a disco Italian kind of continuous rhythm. Sometimes it has a Latin flavour to it, a little bit of a samba beat. Sometimes it has a world beat to it and you have a Gypsy King style guitar playing in the background.

7211 That's all part of the whole umbrella term of dance music and you can't get that on the CD that you are buying. You can only get it in a special compilation. Or, if you look at stations in Miami, in New York, you are hearing these versions being played live by DJs, and people love it. It's just tremendous. I'm sure you have travelled and seen the energy that is happening over there. It's because they have a chance to hear this music.

7212 COMMISSIONER NOËL: So what is aired on standard type radio? When I say "standard", I make no reference to standard radio. I mean, a usual type of radio station in this area would be the CD version that's available in stores, but what you are playing in the clubs is an upbeat version of the same.

7213 MR. KELLY: The term used is a "remix", it's remixed and it has several other instruments perhaps in it, an echo of the voice, all kinds of interesting effects that make the song a totally new --

7214 COMMISSIONER NOËL: And an urban dance station would play the remixed versions.

7215 MR. KELLY: Right, right.

7216 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Thank you.

7217 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Kelly.

7218 MR. KELLY: Thank you very much.

7219 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Madame la Secrétaire, s'il vous plaît.

7220 Mme POIRIER: Merci, Madame la Présidente.

7221 I would now ask Mr. Frank Branker, from the Ottawa Record Pool.

INTERVENTION

7222 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, Mr. Branker.

7223 MR. BRANKER: Good morning.

7224 Madam Chair, Commissioners, my name is Frank Branker, and with me I have Scott Waithe from Universal Records that is going to assist me with my presentation. I'm a little nervous, so bear with me.

7225 Twenty years ago, I founded the Ottawa Record Pool, an independent organization sanctioned by the Canadian Music Industry. Our mandate is to network and promote dance and urban music in the National Capital Region to disc jockeys and clubs. And it's something that I am committed to. I have been doing it, like I say, for 20 years. I also get involved with a lot of promotions in the club circuits. When the people have like their DJ contests, their DMC World Championship, they usually call on someone like me to be a judge, grey hair and all.

7226 In addition, I was the proprietor of Downtown Records, one of Ottawa's oldest and most respected dance music stores, with revenues of -- back in the days close to half-a-million, $500,000 in revenues.

7227 Each week, my Record Pool members are serviced with approximately 15 to 20 pieces of new dance releases. Out of that every week there are usually at least five new releases from Canadian dance acts. Having a radio station can only help in their promotion.

7228 As my colleague mentioned, there are approximately 65 clubs in the Ottawa/Hull area that we just, on a rough count -- and we are not talking places like strip bars and private clubs that all play dance music, we are not even counting that. You know, we many not realize it, but we are so exposed to dance music that sometimes we just take it for granted. You know, it's not uncommon that on a weekly basis producers from some of the other radio stations would come into my establishment looking for special dance music to be used as background music in a lot of TV programs, documentaries, sporting events. But a lot of people never realize, "Hey, that background music is actually dance music we are listening to, you know, it's the music in the background". And, again, especially when you are on vacation and you have that rum and coke in your hand or that margarita and you are relaxing in a tropical country, that background music there, they are not banging you with rock and roll, you are listening to dance music -- their form of dance music, based on the particular island that you are in.

7229 When I heard about the NEWCAP application, I contacted a lot of my colleagues in the industry. And some of them sent me letters in support of the NEWCAP application. I would just like to take a minute just to highlight a few points from some of these record labels. And here is one -- and these labels have been around for at least 10 years. We are not talking fly-by-night operations; we are talking Canadian labels. I deal with approximately 30 Canadian labels that deal exclusively in dance music. It's a way of life for them. And, you know, if you need a copy of these letters for your records, I will be happy to get these letters to you so you will have this on file. Quote:

"NEWCAP Broadcasting will generate countless opportunities for all those involved: labels, artists, clubs, studios, graphic artists, etc. It will also be an ideal medium for advertising our upcoming talent, since the listeners will be our main focus group." (As read)

I'm going to pass on this one. Here is another one from SBG.

"We at SBG Music will willing to work with the NEWCAP Broadcasting in any means necessary to make such a radio station succeed. We would offer promotional and marketing support by means of giveaways, an artist's appearance and advertising dollars." (As read)

Which is very important.

7230 And, you know, that is the sentiment right across from all these letters, you know, support -- support. Canadian artists, if they are playing Canadian artists, they want to spend their money there, they want to help with the advertising dollars because that's where they want to spend their money. And finally, one of the biggest record company in the world, Universal, and I will let my colleague Scott say a little about that.

7231 MR. WAITHE: Hi, good morning. My name is Scott Waithe. I have been working with Universal Music Canada now for the past four years. In my capacity, I have come to know that, after a little bit of research, 25 per cent of all music sold in Canada is compilation music. Now, when I say "compilation music", like, for instance, "Hockey Hits 2001", as Frank has mentioned, the in-between-period music you hear at the hockey games is dance music. And you see everybody get up out of their seats and get all excited about it, 25 per cent of all music sold in Canada is complication, which needs to be represented, and it's not here in the Ottawa/Hull region.

7232 I can say that for a certainty as not only does Universal represent 17 labels, but I have personally gone in to certain stations -- I'm not mentioning any names, but I will tell you that there are certain hit songs that have not gotten air play that have gotten air play across the country here in Canada -- and a dance station in Ottawa will be able to fit that type of, I guess, gap that is needed.

7233 Another couple of points I wanted to touch on before I pass it back to Frank is the fact that I have been DJing here in Ottawa also for the past 10 years. And touching on some questions that were asked earlier on, in terms of if dance music is on a community station, such as CKCU, like I am on, being a volunteer at CKCU, I can tell you that if my music is being played commercially there's a lot more out there that I can go back into a crate and get that's not being played at all.

7234 So that's basically all I have to say. Thank you.

7235 MR. BRANKER: Thank you, Scott.

7236 In my closing statement, I would like to address the diversity of people and cultures that we are having as we grow in this fine city, and I will quote from my letter to you.

"Immigrants to this fine city would prefer a bit more variety of popular music, along with the traditional rock and roll and country music. Adding dance music to the mix will help to reflect a more accurate overview of the music choice of the national capital. Canadians who haven't travelled the world have failed to understand just how popular dance music is engrained in other cultures. Perhaps it's time to consider breaking from old traditions. It's also time, in my opinion, that a radio station be given the opportunity to program music that is more reflective the changing dynamics of the growing cosmopolitan communities in the Ottawa/Hull area." (As read)

7237 In closing, I would like to thank my colleague, Daniel Caudelron, for making the trip down from Toronto. This year, Daniel was the recipient of a special Juno Award for dance and urban music, and it's quite an accomplishment in our field. Thank you very much for listening to us.

7238 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Branker and Mr. Waithe.

7239 Commissioner Cardozo.

7240 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thanks, Madam Chair.

7241 Thank you both for coming here.

7242 MR. Branker, first, let me ask you, you have talked quite a bit about the market that you serve, and I want to pose a similar question that I asked one of the earlier witnesses. There is a certain number of people who would go to the clubs, be it the DJs, the artists -- and they make up a fair number of people -- but in the Ottawa/Hull area, do you think there is a large enough community of people who would make a commercial station viable for dance music?

7243 MR. BRANKER: In my opinion, and I don't have any formal records to back this up, but I can tell you we have been dancing and club-going for over 20 years, as far as I know --

7244 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Yes.

7245 MR. BRANKER:  -- and, do you know, people will dance. You are not going to deny them that privilege, you know. I don't go to dance clubs any more, but I enjoy turning the radio on and just getting the sampling of what little the other stations play on a Saturday evening. It doesn't mean that I don't keep informed by not listening to the news and other formats of radio, but, you know, sometimes, you know, you want to listen to some dance music and it's nice to know you can flip the dial, you have that choice -- choice. I think we are denied that choice.

7246 And things are changing here, the ethic mix and stuff like that, and if there is no choice, you now, it's almost like we are forced to listen to a style of music that we don't want to on commercial radio.

7247 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Yes. Well, there's no problem with choice, but the issue we are facing, the Commission, is to make at the end of the day, is there are just a few frequencies that are being considered -- not quite a few left, there may be others -- and given the two or three frequencies, we can't simply -- well, we could, but the question is: is it the best use of the frequency to give it to a format just for the purpose of choice when the number of people who go to that choice is going to be very small. So I'm asking you, is the number of people who would listen to a dance station as much as, say, one of the other existing stations in the market?

7248 MR. BRANKER: I would say, yes. I would say, yes, there is numerous people out there. And one of those other existing stations, you are going to -- so perhaps you license another one to compete with themselves again, and is that really needed?

7249 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Yes. Okay.

7250 Let me ask you, from your experience in the business, either of you, both as a DJ and as a seller of records, what you sense is today of the market, in terms of -- you talked about the multicultural mix, but I'm also wondering about the anglophone-francophone mix of this area. Is dance music as popular, or is it popular, among the francophone population? I ask that because the roots of dance music tends to be English language, either from the Caribbean or from the United States.

7251 MR. BRANKER: Well, I don't know how long you have been in the Ottawa/Hull area, but the main core of the whole dance music industry, the whole club-going thing, has been for the last 20 years the Hull region, you know, has always been the place. You come over here and the French people have always got that party that they are, you know, that they are willing to celebrate and to dance and to listen to this music. And a lot of club-goers look forward to coming over to Hull. That was the place -- bigger than the Ontario side. If you go to bigger places like Montreal and stuff like that, you know, I think you really get the feel of the depth of the community.

7252 So as far as the French people, you know, I think they will welcome this decision and they will be listeners, they will participate in the station and listen.

7253 MR. WAITHE: And according to the sound scan numbers, you can see that there is a marketplace in the Hull/Gatineau/Aylmer area especially, when they are scanning high numbers for some universal products, such as House Mix, House Mix 2000, House Mix 3, etc., etc., and they are getting these things off of word of mouth and possibly TV advertising, they are not actually hearing it on a radio station, they are hearing in a club. So that's how they are going out and getting excited about it.

7254 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Are there a lot of French bands or groups -- I can think of Dogmatic, for Montreal, which is quite well known, but are there a lot of others that play urban music in French?

7255 MR. WAITHE: Yes, there is a substantial amount. Universal currently working I believe it's four different artists right now that are French urban groups. There are different dance remixers, you know, which we utilized and they are also based out of Quebec.

7256 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. Thanks very much.

7257 MR. BRANKER: One of note out of Montreal would be the DJ Mario, that has been making compilations for the last 10 years. And he records on Sony Music and is very big on the Quebec side. It's a household name as you as -- you know, he's on commercial radio in the evening with the dance shows and stuff. I have a letter here from his company, too.

7258 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. Thanks very much.

7259 MR. BRANKER: You are welcome.

7260 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Commissioner Cardozo.

7261 Thank you, Mr. Branker and Mr. Waithe, for your presentation.

7262 MR. BRANKER: You are welcome.

7263 Madam Secretary, please.

7264 MS POIRIER: The next intervention will be presentation will be presented by Menzies Mixed Media, Ian Menzies.

INTERVENTION

7265 MR. MENZIES: Madam Chair, Commissioners, my name is Ian Menzies. I'm the president of Menzies Mixed Media. It's a company that I started with my wife when we were living in Toronto in 1992. We have since relocated to Vancouver and brought the company with us, of course. We provide a wide range of consulting services, focusing primarily on entertainment industry activity.

7266 For the last 20 years, almost, it's shocking to admit, I have worked extensively in the music business, usually in progressive genres -- what I would consider progressive genres -- like acid jazz or world music fusion and electronica.

7267 I started out as a band leader and composer and musician and toured the country back and forth over many years through the eighties and ended up getting some videos and rotation on MuchMusic, some radio air play.

7268 In the early nineties I wrote extensively for national music publications like Canadian Musicians and Chart Magazine and others, and I was also a founding partner in MoFunk Records, Vancouver based acid jazz label with distribution in both North America and Europe and, actually, Australia and New Zealand.

7269 In the last three years, I have been working -- I have just recently finished, but I have been working with Sam Feldman, his manager and partner Steve Maclum, and their management client, Pattie Maloney, who leads the Irish Traditional band the Chieftans, as our director of BMG founded WorldMusic label called Wicklar Records and also had international distribution through BMG.

7270 Since then, I have signed an executive producer deal with Network Productions, home of Sarah McLachlan and other luminaries to compile a series of CD releases in the -- I guess it is hard to describe actually but world and jazz influenced electronic music would be how I would best describe it.

7271 And I have also started teaching a weekly management course, music management course at the Trebas Institute in Vancouver, a institution of learning for people who want to get into the music business.

7272 And I am here today to speak on behalf of Harvard Developments application for an NAC smooth jazz FM licence. I was contacted last Fall when Harvard applied for a Vancouver FM licence and was invited to submit a concept for a radio show to be considered for inclusion in their application. I came up with a concept that we ended calling "Four A's into future jazz".

7273 The idea is to program a weekly two hour show which deals into the many realms of future jazz and in particular, the more grooven electronic basis acid jazz, afro-cuban jazz or latin jazz and that type. These genres have had a great increase and exposure and success over the last several years.

7274 Artists that could be used as examples would be St. Germain, Sandi Brunot in France, Bebelgo Alberto from Brazil, Medeski Martin & Wood, Bonnavista Social Club which is, of course, usually thought of as a world music release, but is very much -- it could fit into a jazz category, I believe, and current examples in Canada. The most notable one would be Metalwood who won a couple Junos recently and who have been just signed by Verve through a national deal and are crossing that line between jazz and electronic music, using D.J's and so on.

7275 So, it was a fairly forward thinking idea and a bit to my surprise Harvard accepted it and thought it would be a great edition as a two-hour weekly program, I presume probably, you know, on a Sunday evening or something like that.

7276 In the process of developing the show, I became acquainted with some of the members of the Harvard Group and I ended up becoming invited to be part of the team which worked on the application for Vancouver. So, I got my head around the overall format that they had in mind and it was a great learning experience for me and gave me some insight into how the company worked and who their key players were for them and I believe in the team that they have assembled and I think that they would do a real class job with any opportunity or licence that they might be granted.

7277 I am not an Ottawa resident and I have never lived here, but I have had some experience in this market. Artists that I worked with in the recent past such as Alfawadi Allow and the new deal, I have always done well in this market and I have known some of the local promoters like Joe Rally of the Tulip Festival, for example, and artists like Mighty PoPo, and an acid jazz band called "HomeStyle" who I know do quite well here.

7278 And I also know from my experience at MoFunk Records that Ottawa was always good -- from the acid jazz scene perspective has always been a good territory for us.

7279 So, with my overall experience and knowledge from the Canadian Industry, I have disagreed on the situation. There is a large and enthusiastic audience for jazz and jazz related music across the country, proven amongst other things by the increased growth and success at the International Jazz Festivals in the major centres.

7280 To my knowledge, there is no substantial radio service in Ottawa to serve the needs of a growing jazz audience, a full power FM station playing NAC and smooth jazz would have a great benefit on the local music community and the overall arts community as a good provider focal point for local listeners and players.

7281 And so, in closing, I guess I would just say that I know Harvard Developments to be a great local broadcaster in Regina and some other territories and have a very strong sense of community from what I have seen. Yet, they are also not afraid to take a chance with an idea like Four A's into future jazz program, showing that they have a progressive attitude towards the growth of music and audiences and ideas.

7282 I know that the Breeze, the name of their application name, would serve this community well and I am very happy to give them my full support to the application and that's it.

7283 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Menzies. Mr. Menzies, have you been here for any other part of the hearing?

7284 MR. MENZIES: No, I have not; just this morning.

7285 THE CHAIRPERSON: No. Let me ask you, since you seem to be knowledgeable in the jazz area. There has been a lot of discussion about the difficulty of distinguishing smooth jazz from jazz. Do you share this confusion?

7286 MR. MENZIES: I do not envy anyone who has the task of trying to put music in the boxes. It has never really worked for me, as a person who has tried to sell and market music for many, many years. It is always the number one problem, you know, where does a Jessica Cook song fits. Is it World? Is it NAC? Is it smooth jazz? Is it pop? I do not know.

7287 What I do know is that in my estimation, if I was forced to try and draw a line between jazz and smooth jazz, I would say that it's primarily a question of melody from a musical standpoint and improvisation.

7288 Jazz is an improvisational music form while there are melodies associated to traditional jazz and to main stream jazz, whatever those categories are, beep-up, what have you. The primary function in jazz, I believe, is to improvise and solo and create new ideas on the spot, not write them down.

7289 Smooth jazz, I think, is a more melody based idiom. It is repetitive, in a way, the regular jazz is not -- they have strong melodies. If you look at the successes in this smooth jazz format, always of course Kenny J comes to mind as a phoenix, you know. He is so successful, we all probably hate him now, but, you know, it's melody, right. You know his songs by melody. He takes a solo on his soprano saxophone in the middle of his song, but it is the melody that comes home, that makes it something that can become a hit or can resumate in a broader way.

7290 We don't necessarily think of current successful jazz artists in that light. If we think of John Scofield, let's say a big name jazz guitarist, we don't think of the melodies of his songs or even Oscar Peterson, let's say, for example, of a great Canadian jazz artist, I don't start humming Oscar's tunes, really when I think of Oscar, but I think it's a smooth jazz artists, usually I can associate it to a melody and ideas like that.

7291 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. So, it is closer to easy listening than the pure form of jazz.

7292 MR. MENZIES: I think it is a very close relationship to easy listening and that's why I, at least, understood instinctively right away the connection between NAC and smooth jazz. I think there is a lot of commonality there because the smooth aspect of smooth jazz I guess I would also say is just that. It's sort of more A.C. type sound, softer sounds, mellower sounds than perhaps straight ahead jazz would have.

7293 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. It is difficult for us because we are required to box to a certain extent when people want to tell us they do not know whether smooth jazz and jazz is the same thing, but they know there is no smooth jazz station in Ottawa and they want one.

7294 MR. MENZIES: Right. Yes, i is a very difficult task. I think with the NAC smooth jazz combination you have got, you know, for example artists like, say, Holly Cole or Chardet or these sorts of -- could be A.C., could be pop, but there is a lot of jazz influence as Stevie Dan, you know, that kind of thing. It sits somewhere in-between the two categories frankly and, therefore, maybe sits more comfortably at a station that it is both.

7295 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Menzies. Thank you for your presentation.

7296 MR. MENZIES: Thank you.

7297 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Madame la Secrétaire, s'il vous plaît.

7298 MS POIRIER: I would now like to invite Nancy Oakley from the Great Canadian Theatre Company. You do not look like a Nancy.

7299 MR. GLUSTEIN: As you probably have guessed, I am not Nancy Oakley. My name is Mike Glustein, I am filling in on her behalf. Madam Chairperson and Commissioners, I am here on behalf of the Great Canadian Theatre Company, which is Ottawa's leading independent professional English theatre. I am also here as a musician and a student of radio broadcasting to put my support towards the Harvard Developments application for a smooth jazz radio station in Ottawa.

7300 The Great Canadian Theatre Company has a six place subscription season in music series and play development activity and it is presented each each in intimate 236 theatres in the heart of Ottawa's Italian neighbourhood. The season programming is a blend of world premiers by Canadian writers and Canadian classics.

7301 The Theatre Company was formed in 1975 and while they present mostly theatrical performances, they produce their fin music series called the "True stick waves" for 19 years. They present Canada's finest musicians in an eight concert series on Sunday nights. Over 2,000 people enjoy the sounds of folk, eltic blues and, of course, the jazz each season.

7302 I am intervening today on behalf of the Harvard Developments application, as I have said, for the Breeze, a new smooth jazz radio station for Ottawa. I believe this will be a great new radio format as it will appeal to a large segment of the diverse population here in Ottawa Hull.

7303 The Breeze contacted the Great Canadian Theatre Company back in January and asked how they could help. I might say we, as a little side bar i am reading a letter by Nancy Oakley, so if I switch today in "we", I apologize. We sat down to figure out how we could work together to help stimulate growth in this market and they proposed to help us with our acoustic wave concert series. This type of funding is crucial to having a small series like ours continue.

7304 Basically, the Breeze has committed to a minimum of ten thousand dollars ($10,000) per year to help provide support for the performers in our series. In addition to the cash funding, they have also offered to provide a viable honour advertising and support.

7305 We can help to feature our best local talent plus national or international artists in these series. We were trilled to be contacted by the Breeze and are happy to see this type of support for artistic community. We were pleased to see they were willing to support small theatres as well as the larger venues.

7306 We are committed to our community and believe that this is a new station that will make a difference to the Ottawa Hull and the Ottawa Hull music community. A new radio station will be good for Ottawa. It will provide healthy competition to help keep the economy healthy.

7307 Harvard Developments has put together a solid application for the region. On behalf of the Great Canadian Theatre Company and Acoustic Waves I am pleased to provide our endorsement of the Harvard Developments application for the Breeze Ottawa smooth jazz.

7308 On a more personal note, being a local musician, I know how important it is to have venues available to perform our chosen profession and with all the clubs that are closing down in the city unfortunately, there is so few venues to ply our trade and when you hear about radio stations willing to help out community groups and local musicians, it's just -- because all it takes is one show in front of even five, ten people to give somebody the confidence they need to take their career to the next step so they decided they want to do it.

7309 And having radio stations and companies like Harvard Developments willing to take the next step in supporting musicians like myself and like other jazz artists in the area, I, myself, am not a jazz artists, but I am in the same boat as they are, all musicians kind of form a brotherhood of poverty, we know how important it is to have avenues like this and to have support and have a place to play, you know, because we can perform in front of our best friends and our parents as many times as you we want, it's not quite the same feel as getting out there.

7310 And so, that's why I think something like this is extremely important and I look forward to answering any questions you may have to my best of my ability. As I have said, this statement was written and I am reading it and putting it into record. So, thank you very much.

7311 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Glustein. Commissioner Cardozo, please.

7312 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thanks, madam Chair. Thank you. It is Mr. Glustein?

7313 MR. GLUSTEIN: Glustein, yes.

7314 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Can I ask then what is your role with GCTC?

7315 MR. GLUSTEIN: I have been a volunteer there in the past and I am an avid supporter of the company.

7316 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I will keep my questions in the light of that so they won't be too detailed because you may not have had the same degree of involvement in this particular issue as perhaps Nancy Oakley would have had.

7317 But from what you understand, would -- I am quite aware of GCTC and a lot of different stuff you do, and I have seen a lot of plays and stage shows there so I am quite familiar with the kinds of things you do.

7318 What is your sense of whether this series would be able to happen if you didn't have the kind of support from Harvard?

7319 MR. GLUSTEIN: As far as I have understood from reading different correspondences and talking to different people, the series is in financial trouble because, as you know, the Great Canadian Theatre Company is a community theatre that depends a lot on local contributions and donations to survive and as larger scale theatre companies like the National Arts Centre start bringing in more musical acts, it's harder and harder for the smaller venues to compete.

7320 So I wouldn't say that this donation is the end all, be all of it, but I certainly think that they would be in dire financial trouble if the donations do not occur.

7321 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And have you had the series going on before?

7322 MR. GLUSTEIN: Oh, they have had the series for the past 19 years. They have eight shows, but, as I said, it has been flying by the seat of their pants and just breaking even or taking a loss and depending on the rest of the company to pull it out. But it's a fantastic series, if you ever get a chance to go see these artists in acoustic settings. I know Jann Arden performed a few years back in a small acoustic setting and it was a tremendous success, and to see artists like that in that type of venue is a lot different than going to be soon to be smoke-free clubs and seeing them perform there. So it's a very special thing.

7323 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So with CGTC what you have is a number of different types of series because you have theatre, music. Are you structured over the year as having a number of different series that overlap each other through the year?

7324 MR. GLUSTEIN: Throughout the season, I think it's over a six-month period, the have six different plays, different running times, and then during the year every couple of Sundays they have eight performances of an acoustic waves series. So it's eight performers in a season and six different plays which run for varying different times, so back and forth. Also they used to have a huge -- they started off with the Canadian Improv Games at the Great Canadian Theatre Company and that became a huge spectacle in itself and they have to move it to the National Arts Centre.

7325 But it got started off in the community roots of the Great Canadian Theatre Company which is a very community oriented theatre from my experience.

7326 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Now, apart from having the radio there that would play a lot of NAC/smooth jazz, what does this series really do for the artists because if I think of who listens to -- when you get your song on the radio, thousands and thousands of people can listen to. When you have it at GCTC which is a nice intimate theatre, there is quite a finite number of people who hear it.

7327 What kind of difference does a series like this make to the development of the industry?

7328 MR. GLUSTEIN: As a musician, there is a big difference between having one song on the radio and then people know about you and find out who you are, but if they come see you perform, it adds a whole different aspect to your career.

7329 Playing live is a rush that is better than any drug available and what having an acoustic wave series like this does, not only it propels an artist to a different level, you know, they have to perfect their craft in order to pass it off live because anybody can sound good in a studio. I mean, Britney Spears is a perfect example of that. I apologize to Britney Spears fans on the panel.

7330 In order to be a successful musician you have to be able to perform in a live setting, and having people, allow them the opportunity to come see you in an intimate setting like this will do nothing but help accelerate you as a musician and as a talent and that benefits other musicians and talents as well because if I am a jazz artist and I put on a hugely successful show, and word of mouth is buzzing about this great jazz artist, other jazz artists are going to benefit by it because then there will be a buzz about not just myself, but about the industry as a whole. So it will start a whole new ground of support.

7331 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thanks for that.

7332 What kind of a musician are you?

7333 MR. GLUSTEIN: I'm actually a rock musician, but --

7334 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And there is enough of that kind of stuff.

7335 MR. GLUSTEIN: Exactly, we are dime a dozen.

--- Laughter / Rires

7336 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thanks very much.

7337 MR. GLUSTEIN: You are very welcome.

7338 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thanks, Madam Chair.

7339 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Glustein.

7340 Perhaps this would be a good time to take our lunch break. We will begin at a quarter to two with, I believe, the Infinity intervenors unless there are intervenors we missed this morning who are here and we will hear them first.

7341 Nous reprendrons à deux heures moins le quart pour entendre les intervenants dans la requête de Infinity ou tout autre intervenant que nous aurions manqués ce matin.

7342 Oh, il semble y avoir un changement.

7343 We will hear one more intervenor who cannot be here tomorrow and was slated for tomorrow.

7344 Alors nous entendrons, Madame la Secrétaire --?

7345 Mme POIRIER: M. Alain Faubert de l'école des Cépages. Il s'en vient.

INTERVENTION

7346 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Allez-y, Monsieur Faubert.

7347 M. FAUBERT: Madame la Présidente, mesdames et messieurs les Commissaires et membres du Conseil, bonjour.

7348 C'est avec ferveur que je vous présente le mémoire d'appui à la demande de licence de radiodiffusion de la requérante, la Fondation Radio Enfant, pour une station de radio francophone dédiée aux enfants et aux adolescents de la région de l'Outaouais et de l'Est ontarien.

7349 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Monsieur Faubert, pas trop vite parce que nous avons l'interprétation simultanée et c'est très difficile.

7350 M. FAUBERT: D'accord.

7351 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Alors ralentissez votre débit, s'il vous plaît.

7352 M. FAUBERT: Pardonnez-moi. C'est peut-être l'effervescence. Je viens d'arriver.

7353 Alors je me présente donc. Alain Faubert, je suis enseignant du 3^e cycle de l'école des Cépages et représentant aussi les intérêts de l'école et du comité de gestion de la Radio ÉCO -- c'est-à-dire école des Cépages en Outaouais -- dont je fais partie.

7354 L'école des Cépages est un établissement d'enseignement primaire situé sur la rue Nobert près de la Montée Paiement à Gatineau. Elle fait partie d'un réseau de 32 écoles à la commission scolaire des Draveurs. Cette école, construite en 1998, offre des services éducatifs à près de 620 élèves du quartier des Terrasses-Paiement.

7355 Au niveau du 3^e cycle, on retrouve 160 élèves à l'intérieur de six groupes. Depuis 1999, les enseignants de ce niveau travaillent sur l'appropriation de la réforme actuellement en cours au niveau du 1^er cycle. Ces enseignants ont opté pour l'ouverture sur le monde comme thématique générale à l'intérieur d'un projet d'éducation aux médias.

7356 Trois volets sont prévus dans le programme d'éducation aux médias de l'école des Cépages. En 1999, les élèves de la 6^e année, accompagnés des enseignants de l'école et d'un comité de parents, ont fondé le journal scolaire, Ces Pages en Action! qui en est à son volume 2 cette année.

7357 En septembre 2000, six enseignants se sont regroupés au niveau du 3^e cycle pour poursuivre le volet de la presse écrite. Le journal comprend une quinzaine de rubriques sélectionnées par les élèves. Ces derniers procèdent à la recherche d'information par entrevues ou par d'autres médiums afin de rédiger des articles d'intérêt.

7358 Le résultat final est imprimé en format tabloïd tiré à 550 exemplaires. De plus, il est publié en format Web sur un site Internet de l'école. Ce journal est publié à chaque étape de l'année scolaire.

7359 En septembre 2000, les enseignants et les élèves du 3^e cycle ont entrepris le développement des volets reportage vidéo et radio communautaire, donc c'est tout nouveau. Le volet reportage vidéo permet aux jeunes d'être mieux sensibilisés aux différents messages médiatiques que l'on retrouve à la télévision.

7360 Les élèves apprennent à réaliser un scénario dans lequel ils désirent faire passer un message. Ils sont initiés à la technique et expérimentent le tournage vidéo.

7361 La Radio ÉCO permet l'expression des enfants de la maternelle jusqu'au 3^e cycle du primaire et fait découvrir les talents de tous dans le respect de chacun. La diffusion sur la fréquence 89,9 comprend des productions élaborées par les jeunes telles que poèmes, contes, histoires, chansons, radio théâtre, et cetera. Ces productions musicales aussi utilisées s'adressent à un public de 5 à 12 ans rarement entendus sur les ondes de la radio commerciale.

7362 Ces nouveaux médiums sont ceux de l'école et de la communauté dans laquelle elle est située. Ils s'adressent aux élèves, aux parents, aux différents personnels de l'école des Cépages, aux membres de toute la communauté des Terrasses-Paiement à Gatineau, à la population environnante de l'Outaouais ainsi qu'aux personnes du monde entier qui ont accès à Internet.

7363 Dans un rapport publié par L'UNESCO en 1984, on peut lire :

"Par éducation aux médias, il convient d'entendre toutes les manières d'étudier, d'apprendre et d'enseigner à tous les niveaux -- et en toutes circonstances l'histoire, la création, l'utilisation et l'évaluation des médias en tant qu'arts plastiques et techniques, ainsi que la place qu'occupent les médias dans la société, leur impact social, les implications de la communauté médiatisée, la participation, la modification du mode de perception qu'ils engendrent, le rôle du travail créateur et l'accès aux médias".

7364 Selon un extrait du Programme des programmes produit par le ministère de l'Éducation, toujours dans le sens de la réforme :

"Les médias alimentent, animent et influencent sans arrêt la vie intellectuelle, affective et sociale des enfants. Les enfants aiment la télévision et tous les autres médias comme ils aiment l'ordinateur et les technologies issues de l'informatique où ils retrouvent des éléments de plaisir, d'instantanéité, de rapidité et d'efficacité. Les médias plongent les enfants dans la négociation constante de l'imaginaire avec le réel, de l'émotion, de l'affectivité et de l'intuition avec la rationalité. L'expérience quotidienne des enfants avec les médias implique chez eux une activité intelligente qui les introduits à une diversité d'informations, de connaissances et d'expériences psychiques déterminantes. Elle les oblige à choisir, à faire des liens, à traiter l'information, à donner du sens. Les médias constituent un domaine d'expérience de vie. L'enfant y puise nombre des ingrédients avec lesquels il se construit son identité personnelle et sa vision du monde, ses modèles de santé, de bien-être et de comportement socio-relationnel, une représentation de l'environnement physique, de l'univers du travail, de la consommation et de la vie collective et de la citoyenneté. Les médias exercent également une influence sur son rapport avec la connaissance, les apprentissages, la motivation scolaire. En éduquant l'enfant aux médias, l'école accompagne l'enfant dans ce domaine d'expérience de vie et l'aide à symboliser ce qu'il a éprouvé, puis à intégrer de manière personnelle ce qu'il apprend à l'école et dans les média".

7365 Les compétences doivent correspondre à celles visées par le programme de formation du M.É.Q. dont la liste apparaît dans le mémoire soumis au Conseil. Entre autres, on retrouve le langage, la technologie, la représentation, la typologie, le public et les productions.

7366 Tout comme les autres écoles des commissions scolaires du Québec, il est temps pour nous, les membres du personnel de l'école des Cépages, de revoir nos méthodes d'enseignement et d'intervention et de s'ajuster avec la réalité sociale dans laquelle nous vivons.

7367 Les choses ne sont plus comme elles étaient. Il faut donc adapter l'école de façon à mieux répondre aux besoins des jeunes et ainsi favoriser leur réussite. La réforme nécessite un changement de vision, d'attitudes et de pratiques. Ce changement s'opère graduellement depuis septembre 2000 avec l'implantation de la réforme. Cette réforme a pour mission de donner à tous les jeunes la chance de devenir des citoyens autonomes, capables de participer à la mise en place d'une société plus juste, plus démocratique et plus égalitaire.

7368 Tout au long de son cheminement scolaire, des compétences transversales liées à la réalité quotidienne permettront à l'élève de développer son esprit critique, d'analyser l'information, d'améliorer sa méthodologie, de développer la communication et ses relations avec les autres.

7369 L'implantation d'une nouvelle station de radio communautaire desservant les régions de l'Outaouais et de l'Est ontarien permettra aux enfants et aux adolescents de mieux répondre à leurs besoins de communication et de développement culturel. Le projet est basé sur la participation des parents qui s'associent aux enseignants et à la direction de l'établissement pour l'organisation de ce projet.

7370 Pour chaque école, un comité de radio (de 5 à 8 personnes) est responsable du projet et supervise l'ensemble des activités. Les seuls artisans de la radio sont les enfants qui, à tour de rôle, viennent présenter une émission et manipuler les équipements. Les écoles participantes se partagent une grille horaire. Un ensemble d'outils pédagogiques et techniques ainsi que des services de soutien sont offerts par l'Atelier Radio Enfant (ARE).

7371 Cette véritable station de radio diffuse directement de l'école primaire, laissant s'exprimer les enfants autant de vive voix au microphone que par les entrevues, les choix musicaux, les histoires, etc. Chaque équipe (deux par classe selon les besoins) réalise en moyenne deux heures de radio par étape selon une thématique définie préalablement avec les élèves.

7372 Une formation est offerte aux personnels de l'école. La production et les enregistrements se préparent à l'avance pour les classes de la maternelle et du premier cycle (selon les besoins toujours), encadrés par le personnel enseignant et les parents. Les enseignants et les parents sont invités à appuyer cette initiative.

7373 L'implantation d'une nouvelle radio communautaire dans l'Outaouais et dans l'Est ontarien est très importante pour toutes les écoles. Notre établissement n'a pas le matériel ni le soutien technique au niveau des opérations et de la formation. C'est grâce au parrainage de l'organisme Atelier Radio Enfant, dirigé par M. Michel Delorme et plusieurs bénévoles, que le projet de Radio ÉCO a pu voir le jour à l'école des Cépages.

7374 Avec le parrainage de la Radio

Enfant/Ado, tous les organismes oeuvrant auprès des jeunes pourront bénéficier de cette expertise afin de mieux répondre au plan d'action de leur milieu.

7375 A l'école des Cépages, le projet de Radio Enfant/Ado possède les mêmes finalités que celles de notre milieu, soit de permettre l'expression des enfants à travers un médium simple et accessible, de permettre un apprentissage du média, de favoriser la découverte des stations de radio pour enfants au Canada, de favoriser la découverte de la communauté locale, régionale et nationale, de favoriser et valoriser le développement de la culture francophone, de favoriser la gestion de projets, la coopération, l'entrepreneuriat, pour découvrir la richesse aussi d'une radio produite et animée par des enfants.

7376 Il est donc essentiel, pour notre organisation, que la Fondation Radio Enfant/Ado puisse obtenir la licence de diffusion. C'est un événement unique au Canada qui permettra aux enfants d'avoir enfin 1'occasion de se faire entendre.

7377 Au nom de l'école des Cépages, le comité de gestion de la Radio ÉCO (constitué de 8 parents, d'un membre du personnel et de deux membres de la direction de l'école) approuve la mise en place de ce nouveau service et assure catégoriquement son implication à sa gestion, à sa production et à son financement.

7378 La politique du CRTC mentionne "qu'une station de radio communautaire est possédée et contrôlée par un organisme sans but lucratif dont la structure permet aux membres de la collectivité en général d'y adhérer et de participer à sa gestion, à son exploitation et à sa programmation".

7379 Or, on constatera que l'école des Cépages a une part active à l'implantation de la station CIRC-FM puisque le comité de gestion de la Radio ÉCO a un de ses membres sur le comité d'implantation. A l'école des Cépages, le comité de gestion est directement impliqué dans le dossier de la radio communautaire. Il exerce ainsi une contribution à la gestion, à la programmation et à son exploitation.

7380 Les élèves du troisième cycle de l'école des Cépages auront vécu, cette année, l'élaboration de trois émissions de radio: une première émission a eu lieu les 3 et 4 novembre 2000. La deuxième émission a été radiodiffusée les 12, 13 et 14 mars 2001 dans le cadre des Rendez-vous de la francophonie. La programmation a alors duré 36 heures, c'est-à-dire de 8h le matin à 20h, pendant trois jours consécutifs.

7381 En tout, 13 écoles de l'Outaouais et de l'Est ontarien ont participé à cette activité riche en émotions. Une troisième émission aura lieu en juin 2001. L'expérience est une réussite à tout point de vue. Des commentaires élogieux ont été transmis aux enseignants sur la réalisation de l'activité. Ces derniers ont été très enthousiasmés par les productions des élèves. L'école a reçu beaucoup d'appels de parents concernant l'activité à leur façon.

7382 Vous avez entre vos mains également une enveloppe contenant une pétition pour répondre justement aux besoin qu'on a à l'école des Cépages d'obtenir une radio permanente.

7383 L'école a ouvert ses portes à la communauté lors de l'émission de clôture du 14 mars 2001 en invitant les auditeurs à se présenter au studio et à venir commenter en direct leur opinion sur ce projet. Le comité de gestion de la radio a également soumis à tous les élèves, les parents et le personnel de l'école un sondage sur ce que l'activité leur a apporté et si elle répondait à un réel besoin.

7384 Il est primordial qu'une telle activité soit bien encadrée avec des structures solides et des ressources de qualité pour le développement de scénarios pédagogiques signifiants.

7385 La Commission scolaire des Draveurs a permis la libération d'une enseignante de l'école de l'Escalade dans le cadre du programme de l'École orientante du M.É.Q. Cette enseignante devient ainsi une ressource importante dans le développement de ressources pédagogiques pour les enseignants.

7386 A l'école des Cépages, les enseignants du troisième cycle travaillent à identifier les balises du programme d'éducation aux médias de la prochaine année scolaire pour mieux répondre au développement des compétences disciplinaires et transversales des jeunes. Avec la direction de l'école, ces enseignants se penchent sur la possibilité de demander une subvention auprès des Fonds Jeunesse et du programme de l'École orientante afin d'assurer un

encadrement et des ressources pour tous les enseignants et cela, même au-delà de l'école des Cépages. C'est là une preuve tangible de l'intérêt de la Commission scolaire des Draveurs dans ce dossier.

7387 Au nom des membres du comité de gestion de la Radio ÉCO de l'école des Cépages, je crois important d'obtenir de la part du CRTC le droit de radiodiffusion à la Fondation Radio Enfant. Je tiens à vous remercier de l'occasion que vous nous avez offerte de vous exprimer notre plus vif attachement à ce projet. Nous espérons que vous pourrez reconnaître le bien-fondé de nos recommandations.

7388 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci, monsieur Faubert. Monsieur Faubert, vous êtes ici comme représentant l'école des Cépages. Donc, c'est une occasion peut-être pour nous de mieux comprendre le financement de tout ça.

7389 Dans votre intervention écrite, il n'y a pas de pagination, mais je pense vers -- à la septième page, je ne sais pas si vous l'avez avec vous, vous donnez des chiffres de l'équipement nécessaire et vous indiquez, évidemment, qu'une sérieuse contrainte, c'est l'aspect technique et l'investissement requis pour avoir les équipements nécessaires et vous parlez, je crois, oui, d'équipement mobile.

7390 Les équipements, premièrement, qui sont -- donc, il y a une ventilation au bas de la page, est-ce qu'il s'agit des équipements mobiles ou des équipements de l'école des Cépages? Comment ça fonctionne?

7391 M. FAUBERT: Ce qui apparaît dans le tableau, ce sont les équipements que l'école a achetés de ses propres fonds et il y a également un prêt de matériel qui a été remis par l'atelier Radio Enfant dans le cadre de l'expérience que nous avons tentée durant le mois de novembre et le mois de mars.

7392 Ces équipements-là, c'est pour refléter un peu les valeurs que nous aurions dû normalement dépenser si nous avions à louer de tels équipements. Alors, ce sont des montants qui apparaissent là à titre indicatif.

7393 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Alors, si je comprends bien, il y a certains de ces équipements-là qui ont été achetés avec les fonds de l'école des Cépages?

7394 M. FAUBERT: Exactement.

7395 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Et d'autres équipements qui vous ont été prêtés sur une base mobile et qui vous auraient coûté ces sommes-là si vous les aviez achetés?

7396 M. FAUBERT: C'est ça. En fait, loués parce que acheter c'est beaucoup plus cher, oui.

7397 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Maintenant, vous comme -- mais, là, quand il y aura -- s'il y avait diffusion à compter de 122 heures par semaine, comment -- à ce moment-là, est-ce que ces équipements-là seraient-ils satisfaisants pour fournir les heures, pour fournir à d'autres intervenants ou d'autres écoles la possibilité de préparer ou de produire beaucoup plus d'heures de diffusion qui seront nécessaires, comparé aux trois jours où vous avez diffusé?

7398 M. FAUBERT: Oui. C'est sûr que si on entreprenait ce projet-là de façon plus permanente, donc de façon plus régulière aussi à chacune des étapes, l'achat du matériel pourrait être partagé avec d'autres écoles de notre secteur et de là, pouvoir permettre de partager ce matériel à l'intérieur de notre secteur.

7399 Cependant, en attendant, vu que nous n'avons pas les fonds tout de suite, l'atelier Radio Enfant avait soumis une proposition de nous louer les équipements pour le temps que nous aurions besoin pour la diffusion.

7400 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Est-ce que, à ce moment-là, ces équipements-là sont transportés à l'école des Cépages ou vous transportez les enfants dans un autre site où l'équipement est --

7401 M. FAUBERT: Non. C'est plus pratique d'avoir l'équipement à l'école.

7402 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Alors, c'est de l'équipement mobile finalement.

7403 M. FAUBERT: Mobile, exactement, oui.

7404 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Qui est ajouté à celui que l'école des Cépages a déjà acheté?

7405 M. FAUBERT: Oui.

7406 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Et la même chose se ferait pour d'autres écoles qui s'impliqueraient dans la diffusion.

7407 M. FAUBERT: Le fonctionnement serait similaire, oui.

7408 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Est-ce que vous entreverriez l'école des Cépages comme produisant plus d'heures si --

7409 M. FAUBERT: Nous avons déjà fait l'expérience cette année et nous pensons faire davantage les années suivantes. C'est sûr que nous avons un pas de plus si on se compare avec les écoles qui n'ont pas encore tenté l'expérience. Donc, nous serions un peu l'école pilote qui pourrait aider les autres écoles à entreprendre le projet. Donc, c'est un peu une ressource pour ces écoles-là afin de pouvoir démarrer dans leur propre milieu.

7410 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Mais vous verriez l'école des Cépages beaucoup plus impliquée dans la production que ce qui a été nécessaire pour trois jours de diffusion.

7411 M. FAUBERT: Oui. Cette année, le projet de Radio Enfant a impliqué les écoles de façon à ce qu'on participe seulement dans le cadre des Francophonies. Pour le mois de mars, nous, on en a fait davantage. On en a fait une émission par étape, donc, à chaque trois mois à peu près.

7412 C'est ça, à chaque trois mois on faisait une émission, donc nous serions prêts, nous, à préparer autant d'émissions que les écoles secondaires, par exemple.

7413 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Vous vous verriez alors produire pas une émission à tous les trois mois, mais peut-être à toutes les trois semaines?

7414 M. FAUBERT: Peut-être. L'objectif que nous tentons de fixer au troisième cycle, ce serait de préparer une émission à chaque mois, de sorte qu'il y ait une rotation au niveau des classes. Si nous avons sept classes l'an prochain au niveau du troisième cycle chaque classe pourrait contribuer au niveau des émissions, soit de façon -- à chaque semaine préparer une partie de l'émission en fonction de l'émission générale qui serait diffusée à la fin du mois ou selon les besoins. Si c'est plus fréquent que ça, nous irons encore plus loin.

7415 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Maintenant, dans votre présentation orale aujourd'hui, à la page 6, le dernier paragraphe au bas de la page, vous nous parlez de Radio ÉCO constituée de huit parents, d'un membre du personnel. Là, vous parlez du personnel de l'école des Cépages?

7416 M. FAUBERT: Demande du personnel de l'école, oui.

7417 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Et de deux membres de la direction de l'école des Cépages, encore une fois?

7418 M. FAUBERT: Oui.

7419 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Approuve la mise en place de ce nouveau service et il assure catégoriquement son implication à sa gestion, à sa production et à son financement. Quelle serait la part au financement du projet de la part de Radio ÉCO?

7420 M. FAUBERT: La façon de pouvoir participer aux étapes que j'ai énumérées là, surtout celle du financement, ce serait au niveau d'organiser des activités de levée de fonds au niveau de notre école où les parents seraient directement impliqués dans cette activité-là. C'est une partie.

7421 Il y a l'autre partie aussi au niveau des subventions qu'on peut recevoir des gouvernements. Je prends, par exemple, Rescole qui contribue généreusement dans les écoles où on favorise justement le développement des technologies, des nouvelles technologies.

7422 Alors, ces parents-là pourraient assister les enseignants à développer des projets à l'intérieur de leur groupe.

7423 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Verriez-vous Radio ÉCO aussi s'impliquer dans l'exercice d'obtenir des fonds existants des ministères ou des groupes gouvernementaux?

7424 M. FAUBERT: L'idée nous a effleuré l'esprit avec l'école orientante qui fait partie, justement, du Ministre de l'éducation du Québec qui a débloqué des fonds afin d'aider les écoles à favoriser la réussite scolaire chez nos jeunes. Et avec ces possibilités de subvention-là nous pourrions dégager justement des enseignants qui pourraient être d'excellentes ressources auprès des enseignants pour les épauler dans l'élaboration de futures émissions de radio ou, encore, au niveau des médias à l'intérieur du projet d'éducation immédiate que nous tentons de développer à notre école.

7425 Alors, c'est de façon globale autour des médias que nous cherchons justement à trouver des moyens de financement pour aider ces enseignants-là à pouvoir épauler les enseignants, les autres enseignants.

7426 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Nous vous remercions, monsieur Faubert, et bonne journée demain. Apparemment, vous -- combien d'enfants est-ce que vous accompagnez?

7427 M. FAUBERT: Nous partons demain pour un voyage à Québec avec 75 élèves.

7428 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Soixante. Combien de professeurs?

7429 M. FAUBERT: Nous sommes 16 adultes, incluant des parents avec nous.

7430 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Vous avez des parents aussi et trois fouets!

7431 M. FAUBERT: Pardon?

7432 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Et trois fouets, pour les garder tous ensemble.

7433 M. FAUBERT: Ce sont des anges cornus, alors ça devrait bien aller.

7434 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci beaucoup. Merci, monsieur Faubert. Nous allons maintenant prendre la pause pour le lunch. Nous reprendrons après le déjeuner à 2 h 00 maintenant. Je suppose que nous aurons des gens ici à deux heures moins quart qui nous attendrons avec impatience.

7435 We will be back after lunch at two. Thank you.

--- Upon recessing at 1245 / Suspension à 1245

--- Upon resuming at 1405 / Reprise à 1405

7436 THE CHAIRPERSON: Welcome back to Phase III of our hearing.

7437 Alors nous vous disons bonjour encore une fois et nous poursuivons avec la troisième phase de l'audience.

7438 Madame Poirier, s'il vous plaît.

7439 Mme POIRIER: Merci, Madame la Présidente.

7440 The first intervener will be Tonya Lee Williams.

INTERVENTION

7441 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon, Ms Williams.

7442 MS WILLIAMS: Good afternoon.

7443 Madam Chair and Commissioners, I can't tell you now excited I am to be participating in this important broadcast hearing in support of Infinity Broadcasting. As a Canadian visible minority in the entertainment industry, I have been very outspoken about the changes that must take place in Canada to ensure that every effort is made to allow visible minorities more opportunities in front of, and, more importantly, behind the scenes in the entertainment industry.

7444 I have been a Canadian actress for over 20 years, but the source of my income has usually come from the U.S., as is the case with many successful visible minorities who are in the entertainment field in Canada.

7445 My name is Tonya Lee Williams and I presently, and for the last 11 years, star on the daytime drama, The Young and the Restless.

7446 As chair of Advocacy for the Black Film and Video Network in Canada, I felt it more than my duty and my responsibility to fly here from Los Angeles and inform all of you that we have a serious problem in Canada in regards to the lack of opportunity broadcasters have afforded visible minorities. Most people focus on the lack of racially diverse faces in front of the cameras. I say we have a more serious issue: the lack of racially diverse faces and voices behind the scenes, and, in particular, in the executive positions of broadcasters' offices. Until there is a concerted effort to place visible minorities in decision-making areas of production and programming, we are never going to solve this problem.

7447 In the United States, the NWAACP and other lobby groups have worked diligently to force the hand of many broadcasting companies to create visible minority watch groups made up of visible minorities within their companies to ensure that the proper steps are being taken to level the playing field in front of and behind the scenes in the entertainment industry. Aggressive apprenticeship programs for executives in the areas of development and programming have been developed with the intent that these apprentices will be streamed into those networks over an 18-month time frame. Regrettably, we are not as fortunate in Canada to have such aggressive apprenticeship programs in place. While Canada's employment equity provisions are a positive step, in my view they could go even further. Tougher measures must also be entertained in Canada in order to change the severely underestimated support of visible minorities in the entertainment industry, particularly in television and radio. Here is a viable opportunity for us to do something to slow down the talent drain that is such a concern to our Canadian entertainment industry. We must create opportunity for our visible minorities or we are going to lose them to other countries who are aggressively vying for their talents.

7448 It was with this in mind that I created Real World Film Festival, a film festival whose mandate is to program films, videos, animation, documentaries and music video made by and/or featuring visible minorities. Our inaugural festival was this past April and I couldn't even come close to explaining to you the overwhelming pride that visible minorities felt for this festival. Part of their pride was for the festival itself, that featured top quality entertainment and seminars. The other part of their pride came from the fact that I, a visible minority, is the founder and president of this festival, that 10 of the 11 board of directs are visible minorities, that our staff and volunteers are made up of 99 per cent visible minorities and that our panels of guests were 80 per cent visible minorities. Never before had a feat like this existed in Canada.

7449 Real World Film Festival will be a yearly event and I believe it's the very least I could do for this vastly growing group in Canada that is starved for recognition. As someone who understands these issues on a very personal level, you can understand why I stand before you today and implore you to support change.

7450 I can't tell you how shocked and dismayed I was to hear that Ottawa was the only major city in Canada that did not have a multicultural radio station. It's embarrassing to think that in a country so racially and culturally diverse as Canada, our nation's capital, where our Parliament sits in office, not one station is reflective of the voices that make up Canada.

7451 How is this possible? I feel, as a Canadian, that this is an unacceptable situation and must not be allowed to continue. If visible minorities are to increase their presence and participation in Canadian broadcasting, if they are to have a greater input in the decision-making role, if they are to advance all aspects of their participation to the next level, then it must begin with ownership.

7452 The Commission has a unique opportunity to license a visible-minority-owned ethnic station in Ottawa/Hull and this would send a message throughout the broadcasting industry that making visible minorities a part of the ownership structure of Canadian broadcasting is important and keeping with raising their participation to the highest level. It would be a lost opportunity if the CRTC were not to approve this radio station for the Ottawa/Hull, a radio station that would speak to the needs of the hundreds and thousands of ethnic Canadians residing within the nation's capital.

7453 In the decision-making process let's not assume that just because a potential new station owner is a visible minority is, in itself, a guarantee that the station will address the needs of the many ethnic communities that it proposes to serve. In the case of Infinity Broadcasting, however, its visible minority owners have clearly demonstrated their sensitivity to the real needs of the multicultural communities because they have walked the talk. As professional broadcasters, they have persevered the same obstacles and prejudices from the mainstream establishment. The level of sensitivity and understanding that Infinity has for visible minorities and all ethnic Canadians is reflected in the model of radio stations they have opted to pursue.

7454 What is truly significant is that Infinity has put the decision-making power on programming and production matters directly in the hands of the respective cultural communities. It is equally significant that they have agreed to provide the training, education, technical and production infrastructure to each cultural group in order to better insure that they will produce quality programming and that they will be successful in meeting that challenge.

7455 Madam Chair and Commissioners, experienced, sensitive visible minority owners cannot be legislated, they are grown, in the same way that Neeti and Renu Ray have grown over the past 21 years as visible minority broadcasters. Today, they stand ready to take their rightful place at the ethnic broadcasting ownership table and to achieve greater things for multicultural broadcasters in Ottawa/Hull and elsewhere. Please give Infinity and the 19 cultural communities throughout the National Capital Region an opportunity. Thank you.

7456 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Williams.

7457 Commissioner Pennefather, please.

7458 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you, Madam Chair.

7459 Thank you, Ms Williams, for joining us --

7460 MS WILLIAMS: Thank you.

7461 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  -- and coming all this way to share with us your thoughts, not just on this application but on some general issues, which I think are very important. I do have a tendency to call you Olivia, so you will forgive me if I slip --

7462 MS WILLIAMS: That's fine.

7463 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  -- into that from time to time.

7464 I think you have raised some important points in your letter and today.

7465 MS WILLIAMS: I'm just looking for my glasses, excuse me -- my other glasses.

7466 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: I will let you do that.

7467 MS WILLIAMS: I have them. Thank you.

7468 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Here and in your written letter, you do raise the point of ownership, ethnic ownership and diversity in the market, but I wanted to get to a couple of other points, very briefly.

7469 Congratulations, by the way, on your festival --

7470 MS WILLIAMS: Thank you.

7471 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  -- but if I'm correct, the festival covers largely film and television -- if I'm right -- but if we could comment on radio, in particular, and its value, in terms of diversity of voices, because we are discussing a radio situation here and, in particular, what kind of apprenticeship do you think Infinity is going to offer.

7472 MS WILLIAMS: Well, in terms of radio, if you are talking about the vast number of immigrants that are coming into this country -- I know, my parents are originally Jamaican -- radio in many of the countries that these immigrants are coming from is larger than television and film. Radio is the consistent way that they have found that they communicate with one another, they find out what is actually happening in our country and that they are actually learning a lot about Canada through the radio, more than television and film.

7473 What I like about Infinity is the visible minorities, who are actually running this organization, have been in the wonderful position of understanding how hard it was for them to get to the position that they are now, and within this radio station -- I'm assuming, and from their conversations that I have had with them -- that they are also going to be training people so that there can be more executive position people within broadcasting for radio.

7474 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: The second comment, if you would -- you raised it yourself -- one of the challenges of an ethnic radio undertaking is in fact to serve many groups with quality programming. Do you have any comment on the capacity of an ethnic station to serve as many groups as they have said they would and yet still find that it's quality programming, from your own experience and your own discussions with communities?

7475 MS WILLIAMS: Yes. I'm thinking that there are a lot of radio stations right now that really speak to one group, and there are several radio stations that speak to a mainstream group. I think there's a large number of visible minorities -- and when I say "visible minorities", I include language barriers on every level that are in this country. And, in particular, right now in Ottawa there's not even one station that sort of speaks to that group, which is a largely under-supported group. So I don't see Infinity's broadcasting station as being sort of a limited group of people. I see it as sort of a starved larger group of people that have many radio stations that they can listen to now, but they are really not understanding. I think you would at least need one. Personally, I think there should be 10 or 11 of these radio stations, but one is a good start.

7476 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Okay. Well, thank you very much for your comments and for your responses to my questions and thank you for being here.

7477 MS WILLIAMS: Thank you very much.

7478 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Williams, for your participation. I hope you had a good trip over and you will have a good trip back.

7479 MS WILLIAMS: Thank you.

7480 THE CHAIRPERSON: Madam secretary, please.

7481 MS POIRIER: Thank you, Madam Chair.

7482 The next intervention will be presented by the Dutch-Canadian Association Ottawa.

INTERVENTION

7483 MR. HANKES-DRIELSMA: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.

7484 My name is Maarten -- I don't know whether to say it in the Dutch way -- Hankes-Drielsma. I can't actually pronounce it the way it's supposed to be pronounced. My Dutch has deteriorated, I'm afraid. I speak on behalf of the Dutch-Canadian Association of Ottawa Valley/Outaouais, but I hasten to add that Dutch Canadians are sort of like economists and meteorologists: if you have of them in the room, you have five different positions on just about any issue you might choose. I am president of the Dutch-Canadian Association of Ottawa and our association has taken an interest in your proceedings, and specifically has come here to make representations, as you are aware, having looked at the Infinity application, in support of that application, and I would like to address that.

7485 Basically, we are a small, relatively unique community. I don't know whether you noticed, but in the media recently it was noted in the national press, as a result of a study, that Dutch Canadians are the happiest immigrant group in Canada, which, of course, generated a lot of tongue-in-cheek comments about Heineken beer and legalized marijuana, and that kind of stuff. But in actual fact, it serves to highlight a point that our community is somewhat unique.

7486 The Netherlands, as I said in my paper, is the tiny overachiever of the Netherlands and the Netherlands tends to spin off overachieving immigrants to wherever it is that people go. People bring with them lots of language skills, very strong academic and professional vocational qualifications, and they generally excel wherever they go.

7487 And the other interesting thing about Dutch Canadians is that we are assimilators. As I said, I can't really pronounce my name. I can't roll the "R" as much as it really ought to be rolled. I apologize for that.

7488 But there's another side to that, and there is a limit to how assimilated to how we want to be and how assimilated we really ought to be. And the fact that my organization exists at all is in fact an expression of the fact that Dutch Canadians do want to maintain contact with their roots in a way that they really can't now. And a part of that is purely selfish. They are people who grew up with certain kinds of music, certain kinds of -- the love of language and the love of one's mother's-tongue is not something that needs to be explained to you. And as Dutch Canadians, we are. I see that very strongly in the membership of the organization, the DCA, the Dutch-Canadian Association.

7489 So when we looked as an organization, at Infinity's application, of course, the mere fact that this would give people access to their culture, in a way that doesn't exist now, that was an important feature, but since that time I would like to highlight another point, and I think that our community is not as big a player in the local scene as it could be, if it had a radio station such as Infinity.

7490 I gave you the example there of the Friendship Windmill which most of you are probably aware of. The Friendship Windmill -- the story of the Friendship Windmill is a story of a small ethnic community struggling without any institutions to support it to do something, to give something to the community at large, and to date this is a project that is still struggling, still looking for its feet.

7491 The reason why it hasn't found its feet is that there was no way to build a strong consensus that our entire community, small as it is -- it's 8,000 to 10,000 people -- there has been no way for our community to carry on the discussion and build the consensus that a project of this magnitude would need in order to come to fruition.

7492 So quite apart from the fact that members of the Dutch-Canadian community are here asking you to give them, for their own use, a radio station that will speak to them in their own language, the Dutch-Canadian community is also saying to you, "We can do more for the community at large if we have the means to function as a community". We have looked at the Infinity application and are here to tell you that in our view this is a radio station that would enhance our ability to not just live our lives, but give back to this community.

7493 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, I will try.

7494 Thank you for your presentation. I see from your written intervention as well that you have some doubts as to whether the two hours of programming could be commercially funded, but have some assurances from Infinity.

7495 MR. HANKES-DRIELSMA: That was one of the issues that came out in the meeting where we were addressed by Infinity people. Those were concerns that were expressed and that I, as President, had to write into our submission to you because they were expressed.

7496 I think this is an area in which our members had, by definition, no experience. People had no way of imagining how something like this could be funded. When one thinks about it a little bit, and you think of major Dutch corporations such as ING Bank and Heineken beer, people who are the major players on the world economic stage, you start approaching some of those, and one can imagine that, in fact, it could pay for itself. But yes, it is true that some of our members did express those concerns.

7497 THE CHAIRPERSON: As you know, radio stations rely a lot on local advertising as opposed to large corporation advertising. What would you see in Ottawa as the source of local advertising, or the Dutch programming?

7498 MR. HANKES-DRIELSMA: Well, there is a relatively small set of sort of pre-well known economic companies that are logical, people who are merchandising directly to the Dutch-Canadian community and there is a relatively small number of those, but I don't see that most of that funding would, in fact, come from -- I think the demographics of our community are such that a lot of companies that have no connection to Holland whatsoever are nevertheless interested in our demographics.

7499 I mean, we are a relatively well to do segment of the community. We spend a certain number of dollars and our listeners have to spend those dollars somewhere. I don't see where we have to go to the Dutch grocery store necessarily to find the funding for our program. But I must say that I have no direct experience in this, but certainly it would have to come from companies that are interested in the demographics of the community and that seems to me to be a viable prospect.

7500 THE CHAIRPERSON: Of course, Ottawa has some very special links to the Netherlands.

7501 MR. HANKES-DRIELSMA: Very much so.

7502 THE CHAIRPERSON: Isn't Ottawa twined with The Hague, for example?

7503 MR. HANKES-DRIELSMA: It is indeed. It is indeed and just yesterday --

7504 THE CHAIRPERSON: For various sports and activities.

7505 MR. HANKES-DRIELSMA: Yes.

7506 THE CHAIRPERSON: Go ahead.

7507 MR. HANKES-DRIELSMA: Well, just yesterday somebody from the Dutch community was suggesting to me -- Holland is a country that excels beyond its size in many areas, soccer happens to be one of them -- wouldn't it be great if for next year's Tulip Festival we could bring the Dutch soccer, national soccer team, to play a benefit game against the Canadian team? This is the kind of initiative that you can make that kind of thing happen if you had a means of harnessing the support that is out there.

7508 THE CHAIRPERSON: You better start practising, sir.

--- Laughter / Rires

7509 THE CHAIRPERSON: But some minor league soccer teams come and play here from Holland.

7510 MR. HANKES-DRIESLMA: Do they?

7511 THE CHAIRPERSON: From The Hague, yes. I know a young Maarten someone -- I forget his second name -- swept a young Canadian woman I knew who played soccer and she ended up living in The Hague. So obviously there are exchanges.

7512 It's nice to see you, and we thank you for your presentation.

7513 MR. HANKES-DRIESLMA: Thank you.

7514 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Madame la Secrétaire, s'il vous plaît.

7515 MS POIRIER: The next intervention will be presented by Hana Nader-Merhi.

INTERVENTION

7516 MS NADER-MERHI: Good afternoon, Madam Chair and Commissioners.

7517 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon.

7518 MS NADER-MERHI: First of all, I must apologize for my voice. Unfortunately it's not at full blast today.

7519 My name is Hana Nader-Merhi and I am pleased to be representing the Lebanese-Islamic Community Association of Ottawa, Canada.

7520 The Association is supporting the Infinity Broadcasting application for 89.9 FM because in our view its proposal of an inclusive approach to serving 19 ethnocultural communities in 20 different languages will best serve the interests of ethnic Canadians living within the Ottawa/Hull region.

7521 The proposed station, in our view, will provide a much needed multicultural, multilingual radio programming service in the Ottawa/Hull area since no ethnic radio station currently exists. This absence of a full service multicultural station within the Nation's Capital, a capital that is host to one of the largest and most culturally diverse population in Canada, is simply no longer tolerable in our submission.

7522 In my oral presentation today I would emphasize two of the many important aspects of the Infinity application and what it means to the Ottawa/Hull region.

7523 One, is that it's important for the Lebanese community, and secondly, it's relevance to the remaining cultural communities and to the broader Ottawa/Hull community.

7524 First, the Arabic-speaking communities collectively represent one of the largest, if not the largest, language groups within the Ottawa/Hull region. The Lebanese community is the single largest component within the overall Arabic-speaking community. Although our community is large, and in many respects self-sufficient, like other cultural communities, we have no radio voice within the region that specifically targets and serves the cultural, linguistic and commercial needs of the language groups other than English and French.

7525 From the Lebanese community's perspective, in a highly diverse multicultural society like Canada's, it is very important to be able to listen to a radio program, gain information, and be entertained in one's own heritage language.

7526 Currently, the provincial school boards accommodate such retention of heritage language through the International Languages Program. My husband and I are both very involved in those programs as we run an Arabic-language school with the Ottawa French-Language School Board now. So this application interested us very much in that respect.

7527 For first generation Lebanese-Canadians, I would submit that it provides a sense of comfort and well-being to be exposed and reminded of things familiar from within one's own heritage.

7528 To the second and third generation Lebanese-Canadians it is no less important, in our view, that they have the opportunity to be exposed to their cultural roots and the heritage language of their forefathers. It is through such access that young Lebanese-Canadians will achieve a greater sense of their own identities.

7529 As members of the Ottawa/Hull Lebanese community, we look forward to fully participating in the creation and production of local programming that will be relevant to, and receptive of, the entire Lebanese Arabic speaking population.

7530 I think it is fair to say that the licensing of an ethnic radio station will result in the station fulfilling many roles beyond meeting specific programming needs of each of the 19 targeted communities.

7531 By its very nature as a multilingual, multicultural station, Infinity, if licensed, will provide essential important opportunity for cross-cultural activities, understanding and awareness among all 19 ethnic communities within the region.

7532 As the various communities extend their programming efforts to their own constituents language groups, other communities will be exposed and attracted and informed of each other which is really the theory behind the International Languages Program as well.

7533 Further in this respect, we are excited by the potential of Infinity's proposed world music programming to provide a further bridge to cross-cultural understanding and communication among all communities.

7534 Music through its universal ability to cross all cultural boundaries, in our view, provides a common ground for music lovers to share their interest in and appreciation for world-class artists and the music they perform. And when I say "music", I am not talking about just mainstream, all kinds of music from classical, spiritual, rock, the music that will attract and is of interest to the various community groups, ethnocultural community groups.

7535 Madam Chair and Commissioners, another critical role that will fall to the first full- service ethnic radio station will be to heighten public awareness of Ottawa/Hull's rich cultural diversity and the role and contribution that each multicultural community has played in the history and development of the National Capital Region and to Canada's fourth largest population centre in one of the greatest urban environments in the world.

7536 As a case in point, Ottawa/Hull has a vibrant business community, and may I add Lebanese business community as well, whose membership has played an integral role in changing the face of Ottawa/Hull from both the retail and professional and real estate developmental perspectives, among many other considerations.

7537 I myself was born and raised in Ottawa and have seen this change over time personally. We are proud of our business community's accomplishments and the social, cultural and economic benefits they have produced for the Ottawa/Hull region's population as a whole.

7538 In closing, I would again express our organization's support for Infinity's application. It is the right proposal by the right ownership groups in fulfilling the glaring multicultural service's void within Ottawa/Hull's rapidly growing multicultural population.

7539 The time is now for Infinity and its visible minority ownership group which, we would underline, includes local Ottawa/Hull investor participation and strong local Ottawa/Hull representation on the station's own Board of Directors.

7540 We urge the Commission to licence Infinity Broadcasting for the good of Ottawa/Hull's multicultural population and ethnic broadcasting.

7541 Thank you very much.

7542 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Nader-Merhi.

7543 Commissioner Cardozo, please.

7544 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thanks, Madam Chair, and thank you, Ms Nader-Merhi, for your presentation.

7545 A couple of questions I wanted to get your sense on. One is a little more about the Lebanese community in this area. Is it fair to say the larger part of adults would be immigrants and the younger people, children, would tend to be born in Canada?

7546 MS NADER-MERHI: Maybe about -- I don't want to age myself, but about 20 years ago that would have been fair to say, but now that young population has grown into adults themselves, and I would say it's probably a split. I am no expert, but I would say it's evenly split.

7547 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. So what degree of language retention is there among the ones who were born here?

7548 MS NADER-MERHI: As I mentioned to you before, the International Languages Program is a very important program that promotes heritage languages of all sorts and, for example, the Arabic speaking population are encouraged and -- how can I put it -- have been very pleased to enrol their students on a Saturday program and on a full-time summer program for about two months because that helps the retention, to some extent, but that is education, that's formal education, that's classroom setting. That's not entertainment and the sort of information and learning and education, of course, that would be -- how can I say that -- that is easier for the younger generation sets to absorb because some of the young people, although they are proud of their language, may not like sitting in a classroom all day.

7549 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Yes.

7550 MS NADER-MERHI: And so in our view, the opportunity to hear it on a radio program is essential and much more valuable.

7551 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: But I am thinking about the young people who don't go to language school. Is there enough Arabic spoken in their milieu at home, and so forth, for them to have enough to be conversant or be able to understand Arabic so that they will be interested in it in radio programming? Is there enough comprehension among the younger Canadian-born population?

7552 MS NADER-MERHI: I understand, but I think -- and you may be right, there may be some cases where that is not the case, where English has overwhelmed the language in the home, but I would think that this radio station would help mitigate against those adverse effects, exactly those adverse effects, yes.

7553 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: The second question is with regards to businesses. You mentioned there is a fair size business community of Lebanese origin in Ottawa, and one can think of the Assalys and one can think of the corner grocer. There is really a wide range of people.

7554 Is that a large enough community to support about ten hours of programming, two hours every day in this schedule they provided you with a fairly nice slot in the evening? Do you sense that there is a lot of advertisers there that will fund the ten hours plus be able to fund enough advertising that other smaller groups who may not have that kind of entrepreneurship would also benefit.

7555 MS NADER-MERHI: I would say definitely. I mean, the Lebanese immigrants and Lebanese Canadian-born citizens here are very -- they have an lot of initiative in that sense, in terms of establishing businesses and becoming educated. And, yes, I think that there is more than enough business-sponsored funding that would assist in this radio station.

7556 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. And excuse my ignorance on the matter of language, but to what extent would the same language be -- would you call it just Arabic, or would people from different countries, different Arab countries, speak the same dialect, for example? I mean, will the programming be accessible to people of origins in all the Arab countries?

7557 MS NADER-MERHI: There are many, many countries and local community groups that speak the one Arabic dialect. There are other Arabic dialects. There are some variances, but they are not that significant. And there is what is commonly known as the classical Arabic, which we would hope to promote, that is understood by all.

7558 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. I mean, I can think of people in this region who are from perhaps Syria, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain --

7559 MS NADER-MERHI: Iraq.

7560 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  -- places like that, Iran --

7561 MS NADER-MERHI: Yes. Well, Iranians, they know some Arabic, but they know more Persian. But Iraqis, Somalis, Somalis from Egypt, from Morocco, they have pretty well the same Arabic, basic Arabic dialect.

7562 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Algeria?

7563 MS NADER-MERHI: Algeria, yes, yes.

7564 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So they would all be able to understand the same --

7565 MS NADER-MERHI: In my opinion, yes.

7566 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  -- classical Arabic?

7567 MS NADER-MERHI: Yes.

7568 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. Thanks very much.

7569 MS NADER-MERHI: You are welcome.

7570 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Nader-Merhi, for sharing with us. And I hope you bad throat improves.

7571 MS NADER-MERHI: Thank you very much.

7572 THE CHAIRPERSON: Madam la sécretaire, s'il vous plaît.

7573 MS POIRIER: I would now invite the Federation of Ottawa Chinese Organizations, Mr. Albert Tang.

INTERVENTION

7574 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon, Mr. Tang.

7575 MR. DAI: Good afternoon.

7576 I'm sorry, a little bit changed the name, I already explained to the lady. I will talk later. Madam Chair --

7577 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Tang.

7578 MS POIRIER: No, he's Mr. George Dai, replacing Mr. Tang.

7579 MR. DAI: Yes, I already say that.

7580 MS POIRIER: Thank you.

7581 MR. DAI: It's okay. Thank you very much.

7582 Madam Chair and Commissioners, good afternoon.

7583 My name is George Dai. I'm here on behalf of Albert Tang, president of the Federation of Ottawa Chinese Organizations. I'm also president of SinoCa Hi-Tech Exchange Association, also known as SHE Association.

7584 The Federation of Ottawa Chinese Organizations would like to intervene in support of Infinity Broadcasting. If Infinity is approved, it will be the first time that a full-time ethnic radio station will be heard in Ottawa. The well over 30,000 people of Chinese origin and a total of over 400,000 from all ethnic origins living in Ottawa-Hull will then have something that all other Canadian cities have, a dedicated ethnic radio station.

7585 The Chinese community also has the largest ethnic business sector in Ottawa and Hull, the National Capital Region. A substantial amount of advertising revenue remains untapped within the Chinese business community. The Chinese business sector is one of the most competitive among Ottawa-Hull's ethnic communities.

7586 As for myself, I am quite a new immigrant to Canada. Even when I was in China, I selected the Ottawa/Hull region, specially Kanata, to settle my family, because it's the capital of a multi-cultural country and it's the technical capital of the north, called the Silicon Valley North. After 1995, the number of new immigrants to Ottawa/Hull from China has grown to be number one. About 1,000 new immigrants enters the Ottawa hi-tech sector from China every year. They brought with them their good educational background, experience and working skills to the new country and contribute to the government and hi-tech sectors.

7587 We established the SHE Association for the new immigrants to help each other. In the past one-and-a-half years, we have attracted more than 700 members who have at least a Bachelor's degree. Most of us can speak English fairly well and we are trying our best to be involved in the mainstream society. But on the other hand, we feel it is very important for us to keep in touch with our native tongues, traditions and cultures. As one would expect, we are very eager to hear the sounds of our native tongue and music in Ottawa/Hull's airwaves. That is what gives us our identity and makes us stronger citizens.

7588 Our firm support of Infinity Broadcasting is based on the inclusive nature of its proposals, as described in the application. Infinity has also consulted with the Federation as to the needs of the Chinese community and the way in which it can be best fulfilled. The Federation has agreed to fully participate in any advisory capacity to create a Chinese program that will truly reflect the local Chinese community. Mrs. Renu Ray, vice-president of Infinity Broadcasting, made an impressive presentation at the Federation's annual dinner last month, which was attended by MPs, MPPs, the Ottawa Mayor and councillors. We understand a total of about 200 letters from the Chinese community were sent to the CRTC in support of Infinity Broadcasting.

7589 The Federation of Ottawa Chinese Community Organizations would like to stress on the need for an ethnic radio station that is locally run and managed. We cannot afford the risk of losing the local character of the radio station. Infinity's blueprint for the radio programs is full of local flavour. Infinity's commitments to us are further confirmed by the fact that Infinity has two Ottawa owners and three Ottawa members on its board of directors, including the board chairperson.

7590 Although there is some limited Chinese programming on the campus station, about an hour a week, for real intent and purposes the vast Chinese community remains unserved in the NCR. Infinity Broadcasting has provided three hours of morning prime time of Chinese programs. This would allow the Chinese community the privilege that our sister communities in all other cities of Canada enjoy.

7591 Chinese people are spread all over the Greater Ottawa region and Hull and areas outside the Ottawa/Hull area. It is therefore important for us to have a station on a powerful frequency.

7592 Madam Chair and Commissioners, on behalf of the Federation of Ottawa Chinese Community Organizations and SHE Association, I would like to request the Commission grant Infinity the licence of 89.9 FM. Good luck, Infinity Broadcasting. Good luck, Canadian multiculturalism. Thank you very much

7593 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

7594 Commissioner Pennefather.

7595 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you, Madam Chair.

7596 And thank you, Mr. Dai.

7597 MR. DAI: Thank you very much. You remembered my name.

7598 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Well, my colleague also pointed out to me that you also sent a letter yourself, which describes the SHE organization, and you have also spoken to us on behalf of Mr. Tang.

7599 Just one question, and you touched on it, though, the Chinese business community, the way you see the Infinity proposal for the Chinese community. Why do you see the Chinese business community supporting this proposal? And I would also like your comment on what kind of programming you think will serve the Chinese community, which would also interest the business community.

7600 MR. DAI: Thank you for your question.

7601 From my understanding, I think all the things were based on one principle: the Infinity Broadcasting would use a program joint with the Chinese community together. I mean, we will provide to the information what is really needed for the Chinese people, doesn't matter younger or older, doesn't matter is Mandarin or Cantonese or some other local languages, it doesn't matter he or she is a student, is a hi-tech workers or just at home, is a homekeeper. So in this way we can provide what they need. We can try to make the program together. Of course, including to attract the business advertising and such things.

7602 Now, in the Ottawa area Chinese community there is some media in Chinese native language. For example, there are four newspaper is free delivered. Sorry my English is -- I just come here a little more than two years, sorry. Four Chinese local newspapers is free to deliver, but how they can survive the only thing is to get this advertisement. And on the other hand, there is some radio. Fortunately today, not to Saturday, I think, or two weeks ago, I cannot remember exactly, I heard once about the local Chinese radio. To tell you the truth, my feeling is that it's really, really bad. During about a one-hour programming almost all the things are music. They say to introduce the jazz -- is it called jazz or something? -- maybe the jazz music in China, not here. So they introduce some culture in China now, but during the one hour programming they are talking -- I mean, the host is speaking no more than 10 minutes. I was so sad. I mean, the information here is so limited. Of course, this here, the hearing, is no satisfied. And in this way we can find actually there are no much advertisement, but if the program, the contents, is really good, can attract the designers, of course the business, or might promoted through the radio station.

7603 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you, that answers my question very well. Thank you for coming --

7604 MR. DAI: Thank you very much.

7605 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  -- on behalf of yourself and Mr. Tang.

7606 MR. DAI: Thank you.

7607 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Dai.

7608 MR. DAI: Thank you.

7609 THE CHAIRPERSON: Madam la secrétaire.

7610 MS POIRIER: I will now invite Mrs. Margret Kopala.

INTERVENTION

7611 MS KOPALA: Good afternoon.

7612 Madam Chair, other commissioners, I'm Margret Kopala. I am a third generation Canadian of Ukrainian and Polish heritage. My Ukrainian grandparents arrived as children in western Canada just as Alberta was becoming a province in 1905. My Polish grandparents arrived in 1928. I speak one of Canada's official languages extremely well, I have smatterings of the other and I don't speak either Polish or Ukrainian.

7613 It was only when I and my husband arrived here in Ottawa in 1986, with our two-year-old son, miles away from my Edmonton home and family, that I made a concerted effort to involve myself in my mother's Ukrainian culture. Women, somehow or other, seem to be the keepers of the culture. That seems to be our particular role, amongst other things. I did so partly to offset the homesickness that I felt for my Ukrainian family -- Ukrainian Canadian family that I had left back on Alberta. Partly, also, I wanted to ensure that my son would have some exposure to his various cultural roots.

7614 Since then, I have been active in the Ottawa area Ukrainian Community as president of the Ukrainian Canadian Professional & Business Associations, Ottawa Branch, and as president of the Parish Council of the Ukrainian Orthodox Cathedral. Currently, I am the volunteer producer of the Cable Community Television Show, Ukrainian Profile.

7615 These activities in the Ukrainian Community have brought me into extensive contact with other ethnic groups, first as representative on the National Council of Ethnic Canadian Business & Professional Associations, Ottawa Branch, and now as a member of the Board of Directors of the Pearson Shoyama Institute.

7616 Through these contacts, I have come to appreciate how new immigrant groups are experiencing many of the same pressures and challenges that my immigrant grand-parents did almost a hundred years ago. Circumstances today are vastly different, of course, but many of the issues remain the same.

7617 Concerns on both sides of the immigrant divide about language, about fitting in because of different customs, religious rights, political persuasions, clothing and dietary habits and plain old home sickness, plague sensitive new immigrant and his national host.

7618 Of course, today's new arrival does not have access -- has access to government programs and technology that my grand-parents who picked rocks and cleared bush in order to create their new Canadian homes did not have. But with the rocks and with the bush came time, time to adapt, to learn, so that in two, perhaps even three generations, full integration might take place.

7619 Today's immigrants, on the other hand, are bombarded. They are bombarded with television movies, all kinds of other technological advances, they are whistled through our medical and our school systems, they have to get the job, they have to learn the language, often they have families back in other countries, in their home countries, to worry about. Indeed, for those from Third World countries, I think the experience must be utterly overwhelming.

7620 Often, I pass a certain house on my way to the Queensway. If it is early in the morning, invariably there will be an elderly East Indian gentleman sitting in front, doing nothing in particular, seemingly soaking up the sun. Sometimes he is smoking and I wonder if he has been turfed out of the house to smoke as my grand-mother would have turfed the men in her house out if they wanted to smoke.

7621 But the other day, when I saw him, I thought to myself, I'll bet he speaks one of India's 24 regional languages, and if Infinity Broadcasting had its licence, Neeti Ray with his command of these languages would have a song or a story or a news item that would connect and resonate with this gentleman and maybe he would feel a little less lonely sitting there in the sunshine.

7622 Through these hearings, you are no doubt being indebted with facts, statistics and credentials about the various applicants. So, my presentation has instead focused on the human dimension because I think culture finally is about the human dimension, those shared experiences that connect us in structured and unstructured ways.

7623 I think in our increasingly pluralist societies, the challenge is to find those shared experiences across ethnic device and here in Canada, for reasons not entirely clear to many of us, we seem to be succeeding and there are some of us who are re-evaluating our multicultural policies and whether they are deterrent to the kind of social cohesion that creates a strong and viable nation state one thing does appear to be certain. That social cohesion is, in fact, promoted in that people who gain more freedom, more closely identify with the society that allows it.

7624 I am very proud then, as a fully integrated third generation Canadian of Ukrainian Heritage, to support new immigrants as they embark on their adventure to become integrated Canadians of other heritages and who in so doing, will help others achieve this as well.

7625 I close now by urging you, please, to give Infinity Broadcasting every consideration to become the National Capital Region's first ethnic radio licensee.

7626 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Ms Kopala, for sharing with us what you perceive to be the needs for new immigrants. Is your son still living in Ottawa?

7627 MS KOPALA: Yes, absolutely.

7628 THE CHAIRPERSON: So, that would be a meaningful addition to his life.

7629 MS KOPALA: Perhaps it could be. I think the major benefit a broadcasting facility of this sort has is to new immigrants. It is going to be those who still speak the language who are obviously going to get the most out of it and the second group that will get the most out of it are people like me who want to be reconnected to their roots. But, per se, I see the immigrant who is being the primary beneficiary of this service.

7630 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Kopala, for your presentation. We will take a ten minute break and then come back and complete the remaining interveners for the afternoon. Would you tell us, madam Poirier, who those are?

7631 MS POIRIER: There is Mr. Herb Kreling; Somali Center for Youth; Gary Wiseman and Barbara Wozniak and there was one from this morning, the Council for the Arts in Ottawa that came in and would like to be -- that would like to present their intervention.

7632 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. So, we will take a ten minute break and then complete with those five, I understand, interveners and then proceed with the remaining interveners tomorrow morning. Alors, nous reviendrons dans dix minutes.

--- Upon recessing at 1503 / Suspension à 1503

--- Upon resuming at 1512 / Reprise à 1512

7633 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Madame la Secrétaire.

7634 MS POIRIER: Merci, Madame la Présidente. Sur la liste, on a monsieur Gary Wiseman qui ne pourra pas être présent et est représenté par monsieur Raymond Grant. Excuse me; I should have said that in English.

7635 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon, Mr. Grant.

INTERVENTION

7636 MR. GRANT: Good afternoon, madam Chair and Commissioners. I am Raymond Grant, I am Pastor of Bibleway Ministries and president of Banner Productions. I am Jamaican born, but I do not represent Jamaican Ottawa Community Association, but I am speaking inadvertently for them and for myself.

7637 Twenty-six years ago, I came to Canada with my father, my mother, and my two sisters and it was a political and business decision my father made, and either the fact that the then Prime Minister Michael Manley was becoming quite comfortable with our neighbour to the north Fidel Castro.

7638 My father came from a family of 12 boys and one girl and had built a large and sizeable business and we lived in a very affluent community. We shared residential space with former Prime Minister Ushira. My father, fearing that all that he had worked to build would soon taken over by a predominantly socialist regime, fled the country and came here to Canada.

7639 I was just turning 12 at the time and since coming here I have made this country my home. It is not my homeland, but it is my home and I have had the privilege of marrying one of your beautiful girls and I have three children.

7640 The year that I got married marked 14 years since I left Jamaica and it was also the year I returned and in returning I never realized how disconnected I had become and I would like to touch a little bit about on on a few points with regards to my experience as a young boy coming here, still very much in touch with my home country to which my parents have gone back to live and I would like to talk to you today about the necessity of having a community radio station or an ethnic radio station rather that keeps people in touch with their homeland.

7641 I think it is important that in light of the fact that Canada has embarked upon in multicultural policy in terms of the social engineering of the country that those who are natives to the country understand the importance of people still being connected to their homelands.

7642 Now, when I went back, I was amazed at the poverty that my nation had somehow fallen into. When I left Jamaica at the age of 12 in 1975, we were rising star of the Caribbean. There was an entrenched middle class which we were a part of, part of an upper middle class community.

7643 When I went back that demographic was almost entirely gone and many communities had house in a fine neighbourhoods and homes and families had now been run down and had been taken over by all kinds of squatters in various kinds of other types.

7644 Now being in touch with my homeland during those years created a sense of not belonging any more upon my first trip back. I must say I have gone back every year since and that is now eroded, but at a thousand dollars a trip, that is an expensive way to try and stay connected.

7645 I think that with an ethnic community station here in this city, that has a high ethnic population, the aspect of connectivity to our people in our homelands, to which many of us will never return to live, will be afforded. I think it is important that we also have a voice in the communities where we reside currently.

7646 This is my adopted community and I think that an ethnic station would give us an opportunity to have a voice, and I am going to say this kindly, among strangers and many of these strangers have now become our friends. In some cases they have become our families.

7647 But it still gives us a voice politically, it gives us a voice I think municipally and allows us to share our concerns within the Canadian Mosaic.

7648 Thirdly, it gives us three dimensional perspectives. It allows us to stay in touch with where we come from. It allows us also to more readily identify with where we came to and then it allows us especially new immigrants to have a better sense of who we are in the new world we are in and many times, what multiculturalism does, is it ghettoises people and I do not like the ghetto. I prefer the fact that I am a Canadian. I never trump at the fact that I am a Jamaican Canadian. I am a Canadian. This is my home.

7649 And I think what it has done for me in terms of just my life experience, the fact that I am in the people business as a Minister, that I worked with Immigration Canada for several years, for seven years, in fact, and that much of my job, my labour revolved around people. It allowed me to have a sense of who I was, where I was, but it still did not take from me my origin.

7650 And lastly, I think it allows Canadians to understand the people who live among them and who have now chosen Canada to be their home. As a Immigration employee, we serviced many, many refugees and my division was Medical Services Division, our job was to ensure that those coming in to Canada did not carry communicable diseases or diseases that would pause a burden or a threat to our health care system.

7651 But I think it is really important that Canadians understand who we are, that we are not ethnics; we are people. And in a much broader sense we are your brothers who finally get a chance to meet us, finally getting a chance to know us.

7652 In essence then, Infinity's application for licence by the CRTC is really a licence in request that you allow them to provide the rest of the country access to various people from various quarters of the world and allows us an opportunity to share with you not just on Canada Day, when we do a little dance on the stage, we sing a little song in a mike, but allows on a day by day basis to keep in touch with where we are at, so you understand the ply of the Sudanese and you understand the concerns of the Somali and you understand as well that Jamaica has a whole lot more to offer than reggae.

7653 We want that opportunity to share with you who we are, not a political position, but we as a people, two people that have welcomed us across their borders and in their airports and allow us and give us an opportunity to not just be a culture within a culture, but to become a part of your lives intricately. We want to be Canadians and we cherish and rouse the fact that we have been given that opportunity, despite a lot of hardships in many cases.

7654 My dad left everything he had. He had a profitable business, he sold everything, log stock and we came here. We learned how to be poor when we came to Canada. Mind you, the tables have turned. We learned how to work hard and to do well as Canadians.

7655 Give us an opportunity through Infinity Broadcasting to share with this particular community in Ottawa who we are as a people. We don't want to be different from you, but we want to share with you what makes us unique and I think this particular license allows us not to simply share canned radio with you, also work at CHOR or 99.1-FM and understand the power of the media.

7656 And I really believe that Infinity's licence allows the community to project itself rather than to be given canned programming that reflects really a different agenda. Thank you.

7657 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Grant, and I hope you give our best wishes to Mr. Wiseman. Thank you for coming to share with us. Madam Poirier.

7658 MS POIRIER: Thank you, madam Chair. The next intervention is presented by Herb Kreling.

7659 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon, Mr. Kreling.

7660 MR. KRELING: Good afternoon, Madam Chair and Commissioners.

7661 It's with pleasure that I am here before you today to speak in support of the Infinity application and certainly I wish you all well in your deliberations as you go through the hearing processes.

7662 Madam Chair, my name is Herb Kreling. I am a City Councillor in the City of Ottawa. I represent the Orléans community. Prior to that I spent two terms as a Regional Councillor for the Regional Municipality of Ottawa-Carleton.

7663 During this time, I have had the pleasure of representing at this point approximately 46,000 to 48,000 residents and fully, Madam Chair, I would suggest to you that based on some of the most recent data that we have from Statistics Canada that in my community alone approximately 10 per cent, or perhaps 12 per cent of that population is from ethnic origins other than French or English.

7664 Ottawa/Hull as a region represents today the fourth largest population centre in Canada and it has a large and ever-expanding multicultural population.

7665 Despite our multicultural nature, Ottawa/Hull is one of the few remaining urban centres, major urban centres, in Canada that does not have at least one dedicated full-service ethnic radio station. The addition of a full-service ethnic radio station would greatly benefit the municipal level of government in our region in communicating with ethnic Canadians across the various cultural communities in their own heritage language.

7666 By example, Madam Chair, I know that colleagues of mine on City Council from time to time translate -- I should say it's obviously more popular for us to be translating into English and French, but I know that colleagues at my Council table also translate into other languages in order to communicate certain issues to their respective wards so that it is more readily understood by the communities that they represent.

7667 It is vitally important to cultural communities from many perspectives, not the least of which is the ability to communicate directly with all communities in times of emergencies. A dedicated full-service ethnic station will fully reflect the rich cultural diversity of Ottawa/Hull through its regular program schedule throughout the week and on weekends.

7668 Infinity's proposed radio station in serving 19 cultural groups and 20 different languages will provide Ottawa/Hull's vibrant ethnic business communities, a high cost-effective advertising vehicle to target and serve multicultural communities they specifically want to reach, and over the past six and a half years, Madam Chair, in my capacity, representing my community, I have had the opportunity to work with representatives of a host of ethnic backgrounds, professionals, business people from the engineering profession, from the teaching profession, small business owners to people who have interests in large companies in our community. And these representatives of these companies involved with our Chambers of Commerce, involved with our economic development partners in Ottawa/Hull come from, and are very much representative, of the type of community that we have in our region, a multicultural community.

7669 Ottawa/Hull's first full-service ethnic radio station will foster greater awareness and understanding by the general public of the magnitude of multiculturalism within the region's overall population and the role and contribution that the various cultural communities have made to our community.

7670 Infinity's establishment of the region's first dedicated full-service radio station will add significant program diversity and listener choice to Ottawa/Hull's radio market.

7671 The addition of Infinity's ethnic station to the Ottawa/Hull radio spectrum will create a more positive image for Ottawa/Hull from the international business community who will see it as an attractive area with a comprehensive offering of vital services and hence a good place to invest in.

7672 With respect to Infinity Broadcasting specifically, I know that Infinity is a highly professional broadcast organization and it has over 20 years of ethnic broadcasting experience in major Canadian markets. They are major shareholders of visible minority South Asians. As such, if licensed, they would bring fresh ideas, new energies, different approaches, and more importantly a new diversity to Ottawa/Hull.

7673 Infinity has sought local Ottawa/Hull ownership participants and has appointed a strong representation of Ottawa/Hull community and business leaders to their Board of Directors.

7674 Madam Chair, in our community it is important, in the type of work that I do as a City Councillor, that we reach out to the community and establish partnerships, and when I saw that Infinity had reached out to the community to provide for and to engage the community in partnerships on its Board of Directors, it is the type of corporate citizen that will do well within the multicultural mosaic that we have in our region.

7675 Infinity's owners have spent many weeks in our community, meeting with dozens of multicultural communities and groups and organizations to seek ideas and to garner support for their station's efforts.

7676 Infinity, if licensed, will be optimize the use of the 98.9 FM frequency by extending first-time ethnic program services to the over 400,000 ethnic Canadians within the National Capital Region and its listener audience.

7677 Madam Chair, I thank you again for the opportunity to address you on this very important issue this afternoon and, as I said at the outset, I wish you and your colleagues every best in your deliberations.

7678 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Kreling.

7679 MR. Kreling, in Orléans are there, to your knowledge, chapters of associations of third language or third culture groups?

7680 MR. KRELING: There are in the Orléans community. It is not only done by way of the ethnic or cultural or linguistic backgrounds, but also through their places of worship, where the people come together, and it is in those capacities that they celebrate their individual ethnicities. In it is that way that they also share between and amongst the groups, a sharing of the ethnic richness that each of the culture brings.

7681 Separate from that, separate from their own work within their own community endeavours that way, there is a terrific interest by the various cultural and ethnic groups, citizens, to become involved with what is going on in their community through advisory panels, through our Council, through assistance through the business Chambers of Commerce, through the schools so that there is an opportunity for them to contribute to the community in that way as well.

7682 THE CHAIRPERSON: Do you foresee a lot of change in that as the city amalgamates Orléans in part, right? Won't you become as well part of the Greater Ottawa when the transition is over?

7683 MR. KRELING: Well, willingly or not, we are already a part of the Greater Ottawa. We have been, I suggest to you, since the origins of Orléans which was established as a Roman Catholic church. It was one of the first buildings on St. Joseph Boulevard, which is the main boulevard in our community.

7684 I think that our challenge as a new City of Ottawa is to represent all of the residents of our city, in all of its communities, both geographically and ethnically. I think an application such as the one before you will help us to reach out to those partners in yet another way.

7685 THE CHAIRPERSON: And help the amalgamation.

7686 MR. KRELING: Yes, and we will need all the help we can get.

--- Laughter / Rires

7687 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Cardozo has a question.

7688 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you, Madam Chair.

7689 Thank you, Mr. Kreling. It has been interesting.

7690 I just have one question for you. One of the things we look at in licensing is the business case that a station might have, and I am wondering to what extent the City of Ottawa advertises on the radio and whether you would see an ethnic radio where you have programming in a number of different languages as a vehicle for getting your message out to the population.

7691 MR. KRELING: I think it is absolutely an ideal vehicle for us to get our message out. As I indicated earlier, some of my colleagues are already undertaking that type of effort on their own for certain types of information. I guess perhaps one of the most recent one, and the one that may be the most easily recognizable to all of us, is during our election process.

7692 We undertake a great deal of advertising during an election process for municipal civic elections, yet we continue to have one of the lowest voter turnouts by comparison to federal, provincial and municipal levels. It is just one of those challenges that we have as a municipality.

7693 In having a radio station that provides this type of multicultural programming, it provides us an opportunity to reach out to the communities, the various multicultural communities, to indicate to them their rights as residents of our city, as Canadian citizens of ethnic origins living in our municipality as to how they can express their democratic rights.

7694 I myself, in the last municipal election, undertook with three of the cultures in my community the translation of certain items so that the community would be better aware of the election process. This radio station would provide us certainly with a very good vehicle to get that message out.

7695 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: But do you see the city being interested in advertising about city services and the kinds of things that the city does, not just at election time, but on an ongoing basis?

7696 MR. KRELING: Yes, and I gave you the election example. Maybe that was a poor example, but that was the one that quickly came to mind and it was one that we most easily recognize.

7697 I think that this station would provide us that opportunity, sir, to get out the information on various municipal programs. I know that our Community Services Division, under people services department, utilizes the services of a multicultural language translation centre to provide information on our health and community services program.

7698 I am also Chair of the Police Services Board for Ottawa. I know that our police service also utilizes that same multicultural translation service in order to ensure that we reach out and communicate effectively with the various ethnic cultures in our city.

7699 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thanks very much.

7700 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Noël.

7701 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Mr. Kreling, I was under the impression, rightly or wrongly, that the Orléans area was largely French Canadian. Could you give me the demographics of that area?

7702 MR. KRELING: Certainly. At this point, the demographics of the Orléans ward -- now it's not all of Orléans. All of Orléans is about 80,000 or 90,000 people. My ward is completely within Orléans and it is nearing a population of 50,000 in my ward. So my example is going to be based on my ward, which is pretty reflective of the balance of Orléans too. English first language in Orléans is about 65 per cent of the population; French first language in Orléans is approximately 25 per cent of the population and the balance is made up of all other ethnic cultures and linguistic backgrounds.

7703 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Thank you very much.

7704 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Kreling.

7705 MR. KRELING: Thank you.

7706 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for coming to share your comments with us.

7707 MR. KRELING: Thank you very much.

7708 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Madame la Secrétaire.

7709 Mme POIRIER: Merci, Madame la Présidente.

7710 The next intervention is presented by the Somali Centre for Youth, Women and Community Development, by Raage Mohamed.

INTERVENTION

7711 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon, Mr. Mohamed.

7712 MR. MOHAMED: Good afternoon.

7713 Madam Chair and distinguished members of the panel, I am Raage Mohamed, Program Manager for Somali Centre for Youth, Women and Community Development.

7714 I would begin my presentation by thanking the CRTC for giving us the opportunity to appear at this hearing and express our thoughts to how important an ethnic radio station is to our community and why Infinity Broadcasting should be the ownership group to be licensed.

7715 There is no doubt in my mind or the community of 15,000 that we represent, that this hearing process is of major importance to the Somali community and will be remembered as such for many years to come.

7716 They are of major importance because they represent for the first time the possibility of an effective communication tool to reach out to all parts of the Somali community, to educate and to inform and also to entertain them.

7717 As some of you on the panel may be aware, the Somali community has grown considerably over the past few years, but it still remains isolated and in many ways vulnerable, like other smaller multicultural communities in the region.

7718 One of the common problems that the Somali community shares with other cultural groups is a means of effectively talking to our community.

7719 Based on the experience of the National Radio in Somalia, the most effective and reliable mode of Somali culture is an oral communication, since the script of Somali language was written first only in 1973.

7720 Here in Ottawa/Hull, the Somali Centre has continuously struggled to come up with an effective tool to reach out to the community that we are trying so hard to serve. We are strongly convinced that regular Somali language programs on Infinity Broadcasting would solve our dilemma. Such programs would assist Somali Canadians both young and older to retain their cultural and linguistic values, while learning more about Canada and its ways.

7721 What we are also excited about is the opportunity for persons within our own community to effectively participate in deciding what kind of programming the Somali community wants and needs the most, and then actually producing that programming for our own community.

7722 Madam Chairperson, there are many talented people in the Somali community and its organizations who have the talent to participate in the production of programming for our community. With the support and the guidance of Infinity's experienced professional broadcasting team, the skill level within the Somali community, in terms of broadcasting, will increase even more and ensure that we will provide quality programs to our people.

7723 It is also both important and significant that the Somali community will have its own member on that advisory council that has been established by Infinity to ensure that the best interests and fairness for each of the 19 cultural communities are met and maintained.

7724 The reason, Madam Chairperson, why it's important that Infinity has provided for each community to make its own decision on programming and in being included in the advisory council activities is that no other outside influence can know the Somali community's needs and express the Somali culture and interpret the Somali language as well as Somalis themselves can.

7725 While it's very important for the Somali community and its institutions to have the capacity to inform and educate and communicate among its own immediate community, we also want to be able to reflect the Somali community to other multicultural communities. As part of Ottawa/Hull's multicultural mosaic, we would like to share with them aspects of our culture and the contribution it has made, and will continue to make, to Ottawa/Hul's broader multicultural society.

7726 By having a Somali voice among the 18 other cultural multilingual voices within Infinity Broadcasting family, we, as a community, will be able to participate in, and contribute to, public policy, discussions within the lcoal, provincial and national stages.

7727 Finally, because of all of what I have stated, we are convinced that Infinity Broadcasting is totally committed to provide a high-quality, locally produced programming prackage that will reflect the culture, music, current events and celebrations and achievements of the Somali community.

7728 Madam Chairperson and panel members, we are impressed that the Infinity owners took the initiative and invested in the time to personally come and talk to our community, ask about our needs and invite us to be part of their broadcast family. Although they are of South Asian origin, Mr. and Mrs. Ray seemed to understand and appreciate the problems of the Somali community and the need for us to be included.

7729 On behalf of the Somali Centre for Youth, Women and Community Develoment, we would highly recomend that Infinity be licensed for this multicultural station for Ottawa/Hull and because we have trust and confidence in them to make good on their commitment and to use the station to advance multiculturalism within the region. Thank you very much.

7730 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Mohamed, the Somali community is often -- or the Somali culture is described is an oral culture, which I think you confirmed today, and there are 15,000 people of Somali origin in the Ottawa/Hull area. Can one language reach all of them?

7731 MR. MOHAMED: Yes. I mean, the unique aspect of the Somali culture is that there is no language diversity. I mean, 99 per cent, or maybe 100 per cent, speak the Somali language, whereby all of them -- or all of the members within the ethnic group could understand. There may be one small dialect within that Somali language, which means that although anybody who speaks in that dialect can understand the classical Somali, all members -- I could understand, although I don't belong to that dialect, when they speak to me.

7732 Also, the Somali language doesn't represent only those who are originally from the Somalian Republic, but also about 3.5 million from Ethiopia, within the Ethiopian Federation, also from the Republic of Jabuti, which 50-plus are ethnic Somalis, about 1 million for Kenya. So they are all spread over countries in the Horn of Africa. Representatives from those regions are all here with us so -- and they cdould communicate and share.

7733 THE CHAIRPERSON: They could understand each other?

7734 MR. MOHAMED: Yeah.

7735 THE CHAIRPERSON: And now it is a culture that is becoming more a written culture?

7736 MR. MOHAMED: Could you clarify that, please?

7737 THE CHAIRPERSON: It's no more solely an oral culture, I think I heard you say.

7738 MR. MOHAMED: Yeah. I mean, for example, I am able to write and read in Somali and English, but if you ask me my best way of communication, it would be an oral. I mean, it's more than oral, it's a way of living in a nomadic setting. Even in you are here, we still communicate orally.

7739 THE CHAIRPERSON: Because you wouldn't have a background of -- you culture wouldn't have a written component?

7740 MR. MOHAMED: It was just those of us who went to school. I mean, maybe 90 per cent of my father's generation were not able to read and write in Somali, althoguh Arabic was also part of our culture, in terms of the religion, and most of us are able to write and read. Even if they don't understand, they are able to read and write, which is another aspect of it.

7741 THE CHAIRPERSON: So, presumably, radio would be of even greater importance to that group.

7742 MR. MOHAMED: It's the only way. I think maybe it's the only reason, despite all the other reasons that my colleagues have mentioned, that you should approve this application, because, as the Somali Centre here, when we want to hold workshops or we want to send a written message to the community, it so hard. I mean, you can't access them or reach them. And even if you give them a flyer, they would ask you, "Tell me about it", I mean, without reading it, even if they can read it.

7743 So they prefer to communicate orally. And I believe this would really give us a chance to communicate to the community, educate them about their new country. But also another aspect, we are newcomers to this country and it's very important and one of the biggest concerns for the parents here is the need for the children to keep their language and culture. And we would like to see that happen and this would give us an opportunity.

7744 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr. Mohamed, for coming to share your presentation with us. Thank you.

7745 MR. MOHAMED: I appreciate the opportunity and I thank you very much.

7746 THE CHAIRPERSON: Madame la Secrétaire, s'il vous plaît.

7747 MS POIRIER: Thank you, Madam Chair.

7748 The next one is presented by Barbara Wozniak.

INTERVENTION

7749 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon, Ms Wozniak.

7750 MS WOZNIAK: Good afternoon.

7751 Madam Chair, Commissioners, my name is Barbara Wozniak. I'm the treasurer for the Canadian Polish Congress, the National Capital Region; treasurer for the Polish Canadian Women's Federation, the Ottawa Branch; and I'm on the executive committee for the Polish Scouting Organization for all of Canada.

7752 The Polish Canadian Congress is an umbrella organization representing Canadians of Polish heritage. In the National Capital Region, we have 11 member organizations. There are about 25,000 Canadians of Polish heritage residing in the Ottawa/Hull area.

7753 Last year, the Polish community in Ottawa hosted over 120 special events. Advertising such events to the community is done through leaflets, the weekly church bulletin and monthly events calendar put out by the Polish Congress. We would welcome a high-quality radio program that is informative, reflects our cultural values and addresses community issues. A permanent Polish radio program would enable the local population to be kept informed of all ongoing events in the community in a concentrated information slot and Polish-owned businesses serving the community would have the ability to consolidate their advertising with the assurance that their word is reaching the highest number of listeners.

7754 In April, Mrs. Renu Ray presented the proposal of Infinity Broadcasting to the executive and members of the Polish Congress. We feel that the multicultural aspect of local programming proposed by Infinity will give Canadians in this region an exposure to other cultures beyond the predominantly American programming to which we are frequently exposed. It will foster a positive global atmosphere, in keeping with the advancement of the world today, as their programming components will be supplemented by news and information from the home countries of each ethnic community as provide by international news orgainzations like the BBC and Voice of America.

7755 We especailly value Infinity's commitment to working closely with the Polish Congress in developing a locally produced program to reflect Ottawa-Hull's Polish community. An advisory council formed by Infinity will have representation from the Polish Congress and 19 other ethnic communities that Infinity proposes to serve. It is very important that the local characteristics of the various ethnic groups are not at risk of being lost to out-of-market radio forces.

7756 Infinity will broadcast Polish programs five days a week, Monday to Friday, a total of 10 hours of weekly programming for the Polish community, as well as 25 hours per week of World Beat Music, featuring music from every ethnic group. Through World Beat Music, Infinity will provide exposure to local ethnic talent on air, as well as providing scholarships, grants and training programs for young musical talent in this region. Commentaries on World Beat Music in French and English will make the program more accessible for the bilingual members of this community, a very important factor as this segment of the population has demonstrated time and again its interest in multicultural musical and community events through their support and participation.

7757 I am a Canadian of Polish descent, born and raised in this region. For my entire adult life, I have been very active in the Polish community and can say, without doubt, that connecting with one's roots is important in creating a strong identity. Through our ethnic schools, churches, community groups, television and radio programs, the younger generation has the opportunity to connect with and retain their cultural heritage, which can only be an asset to character development. Good quality radio programming that reflects their local ethnic community will serve not only as a link to their cultural background, but will reinforce their ties to their community in this region.

7758 From the outset, Infinity Broadcasting have put much effort into conencting with our community. They have shown interest in our needs and the requirements for Polish radio programming and have been open to healthy interaction. The Canadian Polish Congress respectfully urges the CRTC to grant the ethnic radio 89.9 FM licence to Infinity Broadcasting. Thank you.

7759 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Wozniak.

7760 Commissioner Cardozo.

7761 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thanks, Madam Chair.

7762 And thanks, Ms Wozniak. A couple of questions. Could you give us a sense of the demography of the Polish Canadain community, in terms of the number of people who are immigrants and those who are born in Canada?

7763 MS WOZNIAK: I don't have accurate statistics, but I can tell you --

7764 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Well, just roughly.

7765 MS WOZNIAK:  -- in general terms --

7766 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Yes.

7767 MS WOZNIAK:  -- that predominantly, I would say, the larger number reflects immigrants that came in the eighties. There was a larger influx of immigrants because of the political --

7768 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Right.

7769 MS WOZNIAK:  -- tensions and changes in Poland. There was a very large immigration at that time of Polish people. So I would say at the present time they dominate the population. There is a small percentage now of the older generation that came after the war, or even prewar, because of the age factor.

7770 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Right.

7771 MS WOZNIAK: And, of course, the remainder being the younger epople that either came with their parents in the eighties or are born here.

7772 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. So given the large number of people who came in the eighties, is it safe to say the majority of the community do speak Polish?

7773 MS WOZNIAK: Pardon me?

7774 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Is it fair to say the majority of the community do speak Polish, as I understand?

7775 MS WOZNIAK: They do. And second- and third-generation children do, as well. I am a third-generation Pole and my children speak, read and write Polish, as well --

7776 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Oh, yes.

7777 MS WOZNIAK:  -- mainly due to the ethnic schools, the heritage language schools, which were mentioned earlier by another group --

7778 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Right.

7779 MS WOZNIAK:  -- the Polish scouting, the Polish church, and I feel a station, a program of this nature, would be almost a connecting point for all of these thigns because these various organizations could promote their activities or what has been going on and keep everyone informed.

7780 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Right. And would it also serve to bring together Polish Canadians of different immigration waves, if I could put it that way, people who immigranted pre- and post-war, versus those who came in teh eighties?

7781 MS WOZNIAK: It would very much so because there are cetain elements that sort of go across the board, for example sport activities, or cultural activities, such as in entertainment, music. Classical music, it is very popular with the older generation, but it isn't any less popular with the younger generation. The different activities going on, for example, in the scouting, which I'm involved in very much, that interests three generations right there. Those are things that are interesting across the board to people.

7782 I feel that the program would be a connection, a bridge, for all the different generations.

7783 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. One of the things we looked at in licensing commercial radio stations like this is their business case and their ability to attract advertising. Is it your sense that the Polish Canadian community, the business community, could sustain the advertising needed for 10 hours a week, which is one of the larger blocks of language programming that Infinity has put forward?

7784 MS WOZNIAK: I have a very strong sense that that would not be a problem within our community. The majority of business entrepreneurs and business owners in the Polish community currently are involved in the community. They are a great part of the community. Anything of this nature that takes place, they would be very willing to participate in it. And we have a very broad spectrum of entrepreneurs within our community. We have high-tech industry owners of certain companies, high-tech companies; we have doctors, lawyers, dentists; we have small busienss owners, shops, delicatessens -- lots of delicatessents -- right across the board a great variety of businesses.

7785 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And these popel are involved currently in the community?

7786 MS WOZNIAK: These people are very involved in our community, yes.

7787 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay, those are my questions. Thanks very much.

7788 MS WOZNIAK: You are welcome. Thank you.

7789 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Commissioner Cardozo.

7790 Thank you, Ms Wozniak.

7791 Madame la Secrétaire.

7792 MS POIRIER: Thank you, Madam Chair.

7793 The last intervention for today will be presented by the Council for the Arts in Ottawa, Mr. Peter Honeywell.

INTERVENTION

7794 MR. HONEYWELL: Thank you. And thanks for the opportunity, Madam Chairman and Commissioners. I understand the Harbour Development Group was entertained earlier today, so thank you for fitting me in at the end of the day.

7795 My name is Peter Honeywell. I am the executive director of the Council for the Arts in Ottawa. The Council for the Arts in Ottawa was founded in 1982, we are not for profit, membership based organization dedicated to encouraging and developing and appreciation of the arts in Ottawa.

7796 We have a small annual budget of about a hundred and forty thousand dollars ($140,000) and we raise funds through membership fees, special events, corporate contributions and generous financial assistance from the city of Ottawa, Ontario Trillium Foundation and the Ontario Arts Council.

7797 Our 12 member Board of Directors is chaired by Charles Reynolds and includes community representatives who have a passion for the arts in Ottawa. I am intervening today on behalf of Harvard Developments application for the Breeze, a new smooth jazz radio station for Ottawa. I believe this will be a most welcomed format and it is currently not available on our airwaves.

7798 We live in an increasingly diverse and multi-cultured community here in Ottawa Hull. The Breeze is committed to supporting this community, Canadian artists, local artists and many of the arts institutions here in the National Capital Region.

7799 I have been involved in the arts community for about the past 25 years. For 12 years I worked as an artist and I am keenly aware of the challenges faced by artists as they struggle to develop their careers.

7800 For the past 12 years, I have worked as an arts administrator and in that capacity I have had the opportunity to interact with artists and arts group on a daily basis. My experiences have included participation on numerous local arts committees and a five-year term on a provincial organization called "Community Arts Ontario".

7801 My exposure and involvement in the arts has taken me to other Canadian cities and it has given me an increased appreciation for our own local talent and of our needs of our community. Ottawa needs a jazz format. This brings together people from different cultures and crosses many boundaries.

7802 The Breeze contacted us back in January and asked how they could help and what we sat down and figured out was that we could work together to create an innovative program that would benefit the local jazz artists and the jazz community.

7803 We came up with a great plan and it is called the "Artist Travel Assistance Program". The Breeze is committed to a minimum of forty-five thousand dollars ($45,000) per year to help kick start this great new support mechanism for local jazz performers in our region. We will use our past experience and our internal resources to administer the fund. We will also welcome other partners so that we can build a substantial fund to help these artists reach out and perform at jazz festivals or take part in professional opportunities across the country.

7804 Our idea is to create a funding program to which artists may apply for support. We will develop an application process and recruit qualified pure assessment juries to review the annual submissions.

7805 The program will allow us to fund a portion of touring costs for approved artists. This program can work in conjunction with national programs that currently exist. Factor has a small touring program, as does the Canada Council. However, their funds are limited and for the most of the successful applicants, they will pay 50 per cent of a touring cost.

7806 If we are in a place to provide the other 50 per cent, we can deliver art great jazz artists to, say, the Vancouver Jazz Festival without the artists having to subsidize the cost of travel themselves.

7807 We can help to deliver our best local talent to national and even international festivals and stages. We were thrilled to be contracted by the Breeze and to be able to create such a strong program in support of our musical artists. We are pleased to see them recognized the importance of the artists in the community and providing direct friendly funding directly to artists.

7808 We are committed to furthering our arts community and believe this new program will make a difference to many Ottawa Hull musicians. Harvard is also committed to the same goals. Ottawa needs a new station, we need to open our doors to a new format too. Harvard Developments have put together a great application. They will bring a new voice and new ideas into the market.

7809 On behalf of the Council for the arts in Ottawa, I am pleased to provide our support to the Harvard Development application for The Breeze, Ottawa's smooth jazz. Thank you.

7810 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr. Honeywell for sharing with us this afternoon in this third phase of our hearing.

7811 MR. HONEYWELL: All right. Thank you.

7812 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Madame la Secrétaire.

7813 MS POIRIER: This completes the hearing for today.

7814 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Nous allons reprendre demain matin à neuf heures avec les intervenants de la Phase III qui n'ont pas été entendus aujourd'hui.

7815 So we will pursue tomorrow morning with Phase III of the hearing at 9:00 and hear the rest of the intervenors in Phase III who have not been heard today. We thank you and have a nice evening.

7816 A demain matin à neuf heures.

--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1610 to resume on Tuesday, May 29, 2001 at 0900 / L'audience est ajournée à 1610 pour reprendre le mardi 29 mai 2001 à 0900