TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
FOR THE CANADIAN RADIO-TELEVISION AND
TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DU
CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION
ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES
SUBJECT / SUJET:
Multiple broadcasting and ownership applications &
applications further to Public Notice CRTC 2000-153
"Call for applications for a broadcasting licence to carry on
a radio programming undertaking to serve Ottawa/Hull"/
Demandes de radiodiffusion et de propriétés multiples ainsi
que des demandes suite à l'avis public CRTC 2000-153
"Appel de demandes de licence de radiodiffusion visant
l'exploitation d'une entreprise de programmation de radio
pour desservir Ottawa/Hull"
Centre de Conférences
May 23, 2001
le 23 mai 2001
In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages
Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be
bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members
and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of
However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded
verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in
either of the official languages, depending on the language
spoken by the participant at the public hearing.
Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues
officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront
bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des
membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience
publique ainsi que la table des matières.
Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu
textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée
et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues
officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le
participant à l'audience publique.
Canadian Radio-television and
Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des
Transcript / Transcription
Multiple broadcasting and ownership applications &
applications further to Public Notice CRTC 2000-153
"Call for applications for a broadcasting licence to carry on
a radio programming undertaking to serve Ottawa/Hull"/
Demandes de radiodiffusion et de propriétés multiples ainsi
que des demandes suite à l'avis public CRTC 2000-153
"Appel de demandes de licence de radiodiffusion visant
l'exploitation d'une entreprise de programmation de radio
pour desservir Ottawa/Hull"
BEFORE / DEVANT:
Chairperson / Présidente
Commissioner / Conseillère
Commissioner / Conseillère
Commissioner / Conseillèr
Commissioner / Conseiller
ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:
Hearing Manager and Secretary / Gérante de l'audience et secrétaire
Legal Counsel / conseillers juridiques
Centre de Conférences
May 23, 2001
le 23 mai 2001
TABLE OF CONTENTS / TABLE DES MATIÈRES
PAGE / PARA NO.
APPLICATION BY / APPLICATION PAR
Coopérative Radio Ville-Marie Outaouais
293 / 1828
Harvard Developments Inc.
374 / 2305
914258 Ontario Limited
468 / 2908
Hull, Quebec / Hull (Québec)
--- Upon resuming on Wednesday, May 23, 2001 at 0900 / L'audience reprend le mercredi 23 mai 2001 à 0900
1818 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Bonjour, mesdames et messieurs.
1819 Nous allons donc reprendre notre audience pour sa deuxième journée.
1820 Good morning everyone.
1821 We are ready to begin the second day of our hearing.
1822 Madame Poirier, s'il vous plaît.
1823 Mme POIRIER: Merci, Madame la Présidente.
1824 Nous allons débuter cette journée avec une demande présentée par la Coopérative Radio Ville-Marie Outaouais pour exploiter une station FM de langue française à vocation essentiellement religieuse à Ottawa/Hull.
1825 La nouvelle station serait exploitée à la fréquence 97,9 MHz, Canal 250B1, avec une puissance apparente rayonnée de 800 watts.
1826 La station retransmettrait presque entièrement la programmation de CIRA-FM Montréal, Québec, une émission de création orale d'une heure par jour, portant sur l'Outaouais serait diffusée à partir de Montréal.
1827 Monsieur Trépanier, à vous la parole.
1828 M. TRÉPANIER: Merci.
1829 Bonjour Madame la Présidente, Mesdames et Messieurs du Conseil.
1830 Je suis Jean-Marc Trépanier, président de la Coopérative Radio Ville-Marie Outaouais.
1831 C'est avec plaisir que nous nous présentons ce matin et que nous présentons notre demande pour obtenir une licence pour exploiter une station de radio FM de langue française à vocation essentiellement religieuse pour la région d'Ottawa/Hull et de l'Outaouais en général. Nous sommes reconnaissants pour cet accueil qui nous est fait aujourd'hui aux audiences.
1832 Je suis accompagné à cette fin, ici à la table, de Mme Pauline Sincennes qui est directrice au conseil d'administration et qui se préoccupe particulièrement des questions de programmation d'auditoires et de ressources humaines, ainsi que, à sa droite, M. Jean-Guy Roy qui est directeur général de Radio Ville-Marie Montréal, c'est-à-dire CIRA-FM, et à ma gauche, de M. Reynald Maheu qui est directeur du conseil d'administration de Radio Ville-Marie Outaouais et qui lui se préoccupe principalement des questions de financement.
1833 Nous accompagne également dans la salle le trésorier de la Coopérative Radio Ville-Marie Outaouais, M. Gaétan Cabana.
1834 Comme on l'a dit, Radio Ville-Marie Outaouais est un service de radiodiffusion de langue française essentiellement consacré a des émissions religieuses d'inspiration chrétienne, oecuménique, c'est-à-dire ouvert aux autres églises, les églises chrétiennes et autres, et aussi ouvert aux courants spirituels d'aujourd'hui, de par le monde.
1835 Radio Ville-Marie Outaouais est un service de radiodiffusion qui, nous le croyons, comble un vide dans le spectre des ondes radiophoniques locales desservant l'auditoire francophone de l'Outaouais tant celui des rives ontarienne que québécoise. L'auditoire francophone de l'Outaouais doit pouvoir se brancher à une antenne qui lui permette d'explorer, de réfléchir sur les valeurs humaines, sociales et spirituelles qui sont partagées par ses semblables. C'est par le truchement de Radio Ville-Marie Outaouais que ces questions peuvent être soulevées de façon spéciale.
1836 Actuellement, nous sommes fort bien desservis par des radios qui véhiculent un contenu de divertissement et d'animation. C'est, bien sûr, la radio commerciale, celle qu'on appelle la radio de l'éphémère, une radio qui a sa place dans le marché de la radiodiffusion, mais pour nous il s'agit maintenant établir un nouvel équilibre radiophonique au plus grand profit des auditeurs francophones, ce qui donnerait aussi un équilibre des deux langues officielles dans la région immédiate et la région un peu plus éloignée.
1837 Il faut permettre aux auditeurs francophones de l'Outaouais d'avoir accès à un contenu d'antenne qui agrippé sur la vie, un contenu qui rappelle les valeurs morales et spirituelles que nous véhiculons, quelque soit notre confession religieuse, des valeurs qui donnent, pour monnaie d'échange, un sens à la vie, des valeurs qui nous permettent d'être des citoyens mieux ancrés dans notre communauté, des citoyens qui sont au fait des courants religieux qui élèvent l'âme et l'esprit d'une société aux allégeances multiples.
1838 En 1995, le CRTC a reconnu cette demande en octroyant la licence à CHRI, la radio religieuse de langue anglaise de la grande région d'Ottawa. Nous sommes d'ailleurs très heureux de souligner ici que la direction de CHRI nous accorde son appui dans notre démarche d'une radio religieuse oecuménique, destinée à l'auditoire francophone de la même grande région. Une lettre à cet effet est d'ailleurs déposée au dossier.
1839 Cette forme de radio qui existe déjà à Montréal et à Sherbrooke, c'est-à-dire Radio Ville-Marie 91,3 FM à Montréal, et 100,3 FM à Sherbrooke, a éveillé l'intérêt de plusieurs personnes de notre région qui en ont écouté des segments à l'occasion d'un séjour dans la région montréalaise et dans celle de Sherbrooke depuis déjà six ans.
1840 Après avoir fait un sondage maison pour tâter le pouls de l'auditoire, nous avons constaté un intérêt réel pour une radio d'inspiration chrétienne et oecuménique. Nous avons très vite obtenu un appui chaleureux de l'équipe dirigeante de Radio Ville-Marie Montréal dans nos démarches.
1841 Quant à l'auditoire ciblé, au contenu également à livrer à cet auditoire, et aux ressources que nous aurons sur le plan humain, sur le plan des personnes pour faire cette radio, je vais laisser la parole à Pauline Sincennes à ce sujet.
1842 Mme SINCENNES: Madame la Présidente, Messieurs, Mesdames les Conseillers.
1843 On va tout d'abord parler du portrait de l'auditoire. Radio Ville-Marie Outaouais s'adresse essentiellement à la population d'expression française de la région de l'Outaouais ontarien et québécois qui se situe plus précisément dans le secteur de la capitale nationale ainsi qu'au nord et à l'est d'Ottawa, c'est à dire les régions de la Haute Gatineau et de l'est ontarien.
1844 Notre plus grande préoccupation est de desservir l'auditoire francophone avec un contenu substantiel dans sa langue et sa culture, un public qui compte à l'heure actuelle un accès à 13 stations sur bande FM, soit neuf stations de langue anglaise et quatre stations de langue française, une station française sur bande AM, plus deux stations de radio étudiantes et une radio religieuse de langue anglaise.
1845 Radio Ville-Marie Outaouais saura capter l'intérêt d'un vaste auditoire, tant par l'étendue du territoire sur lequel elle rayonnera que par l'échantillonnage démographique régional.
1846 Toute personne intéressée par la réflexion sur la vie, les bonheurs et les difficultés qu'elle engendre pourra trouver matière à réflexion à l'écoute des émissions de Radio Ville-Marie Outaouais.
1847 Qu'on soit adolescent, adulte, étudiant, au travail, retraité, mère ou père de famille, ouvrier, célibataire, handicapé ou en parfaite santé, jeune professionnel, sportif, artiste, musicien, religieux, dirigeant de société, citoyen de la ville ou de la campagne, nous sommes tous liés au même fil conducteur, la vie. Sans cesse la vie se charge de nous modeler, au fil des jours, au fil des événements qui ont tantôt des incidences heureuses ou moins heureuses sur notre quotidien.
1848 Nous avons tous besoin de moments de réflexion. Nous avons tous besoin de nous arrêter un court instant pour nous réenligner sur la vie. Radio Ville-Marie Outaouais crée ce climat pour tous, sans distinction d'âge, de sexe, de statut professionnel et social.
1849 On ne saurait trop insister sur l'importance de l'auditoire francophone de cette région bilingue qui a droit à une radio de contenu différent de celui qui lui est offert aujourd'hui par les stations commerciales, un contenu substantiel, de nature religieuse et spirituelle.
1850 Dans une société où domine une programmation radiophonique éphémère, au rythme trépidant, ponctuée de messages publicitaires, Radio Ville-Marie Outaouais deviendra un lieu d'écoute privilégié pour les auditeurs qui veulent réfléchir aux grands enjeux de la vie.
1851 Nous parlerons maintenant de contenu. Radio Ville-Marie Outaouais offre une dimension nouvelle à la perception que nous avons de ce qui se passe autour de nous.
1852 L'actualité, qu'elle soit locale, nationale ou internationale, nous laisse des images souvent déprimantes du monde dans lequel on vit. L'actualité nous est livrée en vrac, avec des mots sans merci, des images figées.
1853 Par la nature de ses émissions, Radio Ville-Marie Outaouais apporte des nuances à cette réalité. Elle offre des contenus pensés et pensants. Radio Ville-Marie Outaouais donne le choix d'une écoute intimiste pour qui veut se recueillir, une écoute élargie pour qui veut partager ses connaissances, échanger ses propos, ses commentaires.
1854 Comment aborder la vie, comment certaines personnes réussissent-elles le bonheur, pourquoi certaines personnes ont-elles besoin de se regrouper pour passer le temps, l'importance de la pérennité dans une société en perpétuel changement, quoi lire, quelle musique écouter, qui fait quoi pour qui?
1855 Vous me permettrez de citer ici un extrait de la décision du Conseil rendue en 1994 lors de l'attribution de la licence de CIRA-FM, Radio Ville-Marie Montréal, et cite:
"Le Conseil considère que la demande de la radio Ville-Marie respecte tous les éléments de la nouvelle politique et dépasse même certaines de ses attentes, témoignant d'une compréhension profonde des objectifs que visait le Conseil lors de l'élaboration de sa politique."
1856 Nous proposons d'offrir à l'auditoire de l'Outaouais la diffusion de la grille d'émissions actuellement offerte par CIRA-FM avec un enrichissement de production locale.
1857 La programmation actuelle de Radio Ville-Marie Montréal comporte des créneaux d'information, de culture musicale, de culture religieuse et sociale, de méditation et de services communautaires et est diffusée du lundi au dimanche, jour et nuit, sans interruption.
1858 Dans cette grille variée et riche de contenus, il est essentiel d'offrir à notre auditoire un contenu local et régional dans lequel il reconnaîtra son environnement immédiat. Ce lien d'appartenance se créera tantôt par l'intervenant qui lui sera connu, tantôt par le sujet discuté qui le concernera spécifiquement, tantôt par les activités communautaires qui seront inscrites dans son quotidien local et régional.
1859 Radio Ville-Marie Outaouais s'engage, dès sa première année, à produire au moins une heure d'émissions par semaine, diffusée localement, en plus des émissions et des segments d'émissions régionales qui seront inscrits dans la grille de Radio Ville-Marie Montréal.
1860 Avant même d'entrer en ondes, nous dépassons déjà notre objectif puisque l'émission quotidienne "Bible en main" d'une durée de 30 minutes, produite d'Ottawa, est déjà à l'antenne de CIRA-FM.
1861 Puis, nous nous engageons à produire une heure locale additionnelle s'ajoutant à la deuxième année de diffusion, et une autre à la troisième année, pour un total minimum de trois heures locales et régionales par semaine après trois années complètes en ondes.
1862 Pour ce qui est de nos ressources, si les possibilités de contenus ne manquent pas, le potentiel d'intervenants non plus.
1863 La grande région de l'Outaouais, Ottawa/Hull et périphérie, compte un nombre impressionnant de personnes aptes à participer à la production d'émissions et de segments d'émissions.
1864 Radio Ville-Marie Outaouais favorisera le développement des talents canadiens, notamment les talents locaux et régionaux, en recrutant ses artisans bénévoles -- administrateurs, concepteurs, producteurs, réalisateurs, chercheurs, documentalistes, interviewers, animateurs -- dans le milieu même où il diffuse. Les responsables verront à prodiguer la formation nécessaire à tous ses collaborateurs.
1865 M. TRÉPANIER: Merci, Pauline.
1866 Quant aux ressources techniques, nous sommes également privilégiés par l'accès aux installations de production de l'Université Saint-Paul d'Ottawa, non seulement pour l'enregistrement de segments ou d'émissions, mais pour aussi la diffusion directe à la tour et à l'antenne de Camp Fortune que nous allons partager avec Radio-Canada.
1867 Quant à la structure, bien Radio Ville-Marie Outaouais est une coopérative, c'est-à-dire un organisme sans but lucratif, dirigé par un conseil d'administration qui soutient la mission de Radio Ville-Marie Outaouais, et comme coopérative, bien sûr, elle possède des sociétaires qui sont ses actionnaires, et selon la formule coopérative que vous connaissez de toute façon, chaque sociétaire a un pouvoir unique; on répète toujours un homme, une femme, un vote dans une coopérative, contrairement à une corporation où ce sont des actionnaires qui détiennent les actions.
1868 Quant à sa structure et pour son bon fonctionnement, Radio Ville-Marie Outaouais devra, bien sûr, se nommer un directeur ou une directrice des programmes pour mettre en marche les contributions à la grille de CIRA-FM2, qui devra choisir et former les ressources humaines requises à la production des émissions et des segments d'émissions locales et régionales.
1869 Nous proposons une radio différente avec une structure différente, et nous proposons aussi un financement différent, et je vais laisser le soin à Reynald Maheu qui se préoccupe lui particulièrement de cette question-là de décrire un peu ce que sera ce financement.
1870 M. MAHEU: Les besoins de financement de Radio Ville-Marie Outaouais comprennent des dépenses en immobilisation évaluées à 81 930 dollars, incluant une provision de 10 pour cent pour dépenses imprévues et des frais annuels d'exploitation d'environ 75 000 dollars pour la première année.
1871 Notre objectif premier, avant même d'entrer en ondes, est de l'ordre de 100 000 dollars pour les premiers mois d'exploitation. Les démarches que nous avons entreprises nous assurent du support de cinq catégories de donateurs : les diocèses où nous allons diffuser, les communautés religieuses, les clubs sociaux, les corporations et le public.
1872 Par la suite, nous suivrons le modèle de Radio Ville-Marie Montréal qui a non seulement équilibré ses budgets, mais qui a réalisé des surplus considérables depuis sa fondation.
1873 Comme à Montréal, les quatre principales sources de revenus sur lesquelles nous pouvons compter sont les dons de particuliers, la campagne radio-don, l'apport des communautés et autres organismes et la publicité.
1874 Au cours de l'année 2000, les recettes ainsi obtenues se sont élevées à 565 000 dollars. Compte tenu d'une population moins nombreuse dans notre région, nous sommes convaincus que des recettes de 85 000 à 100 000 dollars sont tout à fait réalisables.
1875 M. TRÉPANIER: Merci, Reynald.
1876 En ce qui touche la fréquence, nous avons réservé la fréquence FM 97,9 qui correspond le mieux au service que nous voulons offrir à l'auditoire francophone de notre grande région. Nous sommes une radio strictement communautaire spécialisée, à caractère religieux et considérons que le rayonnement de la fréquence 97,9 FM nous convient pour rejoindre notre public.
1877 Du côté de l'Outaouais québécois, le territoire visé s'étend jusqu'à approximativement Gracefield au nord, à Grenville à l'est, et Fort Coulonge à l'ouest. Dans l'est ontarien, le territoire rejoint Hawkesbury à l'est, Prescott au sud et Pembroke à l'ouest. Notre portée atteindrait alors un rayonnement de quelques 80 kilomètres à la ronde, rejoignant un bassin d'au-delà 100 000 francophones.
1878 Notre choix de fréquence a soulevé certaines protestations auxquelles nous avons répondues en octobre dernier. Nous reprenons ici l'argumentation qui sert de toile de fond à notre requête pour l'obtention de la fréquence 97,9 FM.
1879 Nous croyons avec la plus sincère conviction que la diffusion d'une programmation religieuse, d'inspiration chrétienne, oecuménique, ouverte aux autres religions et aux autres mouvements de spiritualité, constitue un usage inestimable d'une ressource publique pour l'auditoire francophone.
1880 Ceci dit, notre conviction dans la mise en ondes de Radio Ville-Marie Outaouais est telle que nous sommes prêts à utiliser l'une des deux fréquences suivantes soit 89,9 FM ou 95,7 également sur bande FM dans l'éventualité où la fréquence réservée, soit 97,9 FM, ne nous serait pas accordée.
1881 Madame la Présidente, Mesdames, Messieurs du Conseil. Le 1er août 2000 -- ici il y a une petite erreur, ce n'est pas octobre 1999, c'est neuf mois plus tard, alors en octobre 1999, nous n'étions que dans la pensée de nos parents.
1882 Alors c'est en fait le 1er août 2000 que la Coopérative Radio Ville-Marie Outaouais déposait à vos bureaux une demande de licence pour l'exploitation d'une radio, ignorant alors que notre coopérative allait éveiller les intentions des nombreux concurrents qui jusqu'alors n'avaient manifesté aucun intérêt pour l'obtention d'une licence.
1883 Force nous est de constater que la rareté des fréquences disponibles dans cette région de l'Outaouais excite les communicateurs. Nous espérons vous avoir convaincus de l'importance d'une radio religieuse, oecuménique pour l'auditoire francophone de la grande région de l'Outaouais et que vous nous accorderez la faveur de nous octroyer la licence.
1884 Nous sommes maintenant à votre disposition pour répondre à vos questions qui auraient l'avantage de préciser la présentation et autres détails qui vous ont déjà été fournis.
1885 Madame la présidente, Mesdames et Messieurs du Conseil, je vous remercie.
1886 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci, Madame Sincennes, Monsieur Trépanier, Mr. Maheu et votre collègue.
1887 J'ai des questions pour vous sur la programmation, quelques questions sur le sondage de marché, la source des fonds, et finalement des questions sur l'utilisation de ou des fréquences proposées.
1888 Votre demande telle que déposée est principalement répétitrice, comme vous l'avez vous-même indiqué dans la demande, sauf une répétitrice de la programmation de Montréal sauf que vous proposez des insertions locales.
1889 Maintenant, il y a eu confusion dans le dossier -- est-ce qu'il s'agissait d'une heure par jour, d'une heure par semaine, et dans différentes parties je n'ai pas à vous les indiquer où il y a confusion entre l'un et l'autre puisqu'aujourd'hui dans l'annexe vous indiquez qu'il s'agit d'une heure par semaine la première année, deux heures par semaine la deuxième année, et trois heures par semaine la troisième année. Donc voilà votre proposition, c'est par semaine.
1890 M. TRÉPANIER: C'est ça.
1891 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Alors ça clarifie ce point.
1892 Maintenant, vous indiquez qu'il se produit déjà une demi-heure, je crois, "Bible en main", de programmation qui est acheminée vers Montréal. Est-ce que cette programmation, à votre avis, a un aspect local ou est-ce que c'est une programmation qui est généraliste? Ce n'est pas évident d'où elle provient.
1893 M. TRÉPANIER: Ce n'est pas tellement une programmation locale que c'est fait localement par une personne ici, mais je vais laisser Jean-Guy Roy confirmer la nature de cette émission-là.
1895 M. ROY: Bonjour, Madame.
1896 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Bonjour.
1897 M. ROY: Monsieur Jean-Pierre Prévost de la région d'Ottawa produit une émission, "Bible en main", qui est diffusée tous les jours à Montréal. Évidement, ce thème-là est un thème général, donc on a un contenu dans notre programmation qui est plus universel. La bible à Montréal ou bien à Ottawa, c'est la même bible, mais elle est en provenance de la région d'Ottawa et nous avons essayé cette année aussi dans le cadre de la programmation de tenir compte de cette nouvelle région future en invitant des gens -- entre autres, nous avons deux journalistes qui viennent de la région d'Ottawa et qui collaborent chez nous dans la réalisation d'émissions, un qui a suivi sa formation à la Cité collégiale et un autre qui est à la fois aussi à l'Université d'Ottawa et collabore chez nous.
1898 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Mais là encore ce serait de la programmation qui ne serait pas identifiable avec l'Outaouais en particulier, et cette programmation est aussi vue à Sherbrooke.
1899 M. ROY: Juste.
1900 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Et à Sherbrooke, est-ce qu'on diffuse de la programmation création orale locale qui serait reconnaissable comme provenant de Sherbrooke?
1901 M. ROY: Oui, nous avons une émission quotidienne en provenance de Sherbrooke, "Signe de nuit", qui est annoncée venant de Beauvoir tous les soirs, et nous avons aussi une émission jeunesse qui vient de Sherbrooke dans la série "Génération 2000". En plus, nous avons dans le "Midi-Actualités" des chroniqueurs des huit régions qui présentent chacune des régions par semaine, à savoir la région de Sherbrooke, on nous donne les activités qui se passent dans la région de Sherbrooke, St-Hyacinthe, Sorel, Joliette, St-Jérôme et on souhaite qu'il y ait aussi quelque chose de la part de l'Outaouais.
1902 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Et à Sherbrooke il s'agit de combien d'heures quotidiennement ou hebdomadairement?
1903 M. ROY: Vingt minutes tous les jours le soir, plus un 40 minutes le mercredi soir, toutes les semaines.
1904 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Et est-ce que vous avez inséré ces créations orales-là dès le début?
1905 M. ROY: Non.
1906 LA PRÉSIDENTE: A ce niveau?
1907 M. ROY: Non, et c'était là depuis l'an dernier qu'on a commencé à inclure --
1908 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Et vous êtes à Sherbrooke depuis?
1909 M. ROY: Deux ans.
1910 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Deux ans.
1911 Est-ce que c'est le genre d'émission que vous entrevoyez pour l'heure prévue de création orale qui proviendrait d'Ottawa?
1912 M. ROY: Là il faudrait voir avec les gens d'Ottawa, ce qu'ils ont comme projets d'émissions. Alors on leur laisse l'initiative de nous proposer des projets d'émissions.
1913 M. TRÉPANIER: Oui, alors Pauline pourra élaborer un peu là-dessus.
1914 Mme SINCENNES: Dans notre première ébauche de programmation locale nous proposons donc 60 minutes d'émission orale, répartie en deux blocs de 30 minutes. Alors un premier bloc qui s'adresse, nous le qualifions, à un grand auditoire et qui serait format magazine avec actualités religieuses, des entrevues, des billets, des commentaires, et bien sûr rendu à l'antenne par des gens de l'équipe de l'Outaouais.
1915 Et puis le deuxième bloc de 30 minutes serait réservé à une case auditoire jeunesse. Nous on souhaite occuper une demi-heure de l'émission "Génération 2000" qui est diffusée tous les jours à 18 h 30. Alors on aimerait bien avoir notre demi-heure et c'est là qu'on a le sentiment que les jeunes pourraient bien s'y retrouver.
1916 Alors cette émission-là en type de contenu c'est une émission de jeunes croyants en action. Alors on va les chercher dans les milieux scolaires, dans les mouvements de jeunesse, il y a relations jeunes-adultes. Donc dans les médias on compte sur ces deux créneaux-là.
1917 La demi-heure grand auditoire, on a commencé à l'entendre soit le jeudi ou le vendredi en fin d'après-midi, 17 heures, 17 h 30, et puis la demi-heure jeunesse, celle-là serait le jour, mais elle n'est pas encore passée à l'étape de la discussion, mais serait entendue forcément à 18 h 30. Alors d'une part il y a ce genre d'émissions. Ce qu'on souhaite cependant -- et ça il faudra aller un petit peu plus à fond dans l'analyse de la grille -- c'est intervenir au cours de la journée pour donner des informations à caractère religieux, tout comme des nouvelles.
1918 Alors on peut avoir les nouvelles de Montréal, mais ça peut être intéressant de donner les nouvelles de la région parce qu'il s'en passe des affaires, pas attendre seulement une fois par semaine pour informer la population qu'il y a une réunion importante du diocèse, il y a une rencontre importante des évêques ou un conférencier d'intérêt qui passe à l'Université Saint-Paul. Donc ce sont de petits créneaux qui pourraient s'ajouter dans la grille.
1919 A ce moment-ci nous ne l'avons pas extrapolé alors on ne peut pas vous indiquer avec précision où et quand, mais c'est un souhait.
1920 Alors ça c'est la production dans les médias qui est vraiment locale, concernant l'auditoire d'ici, qui correspond à ce que je disais un petit plus tôt dans le texte, c'est-à-dire faire en sorte que les gens quand ils sont à l'écoute de Radio Ville-Marie Outaouais se reconnaissent. Ils entendent une voix qu'ils connaissent. On fait une référence à un environnement qu'ils connaissent. Alors l'activité se passe dans une école secondaire de Hull, d'Ottawa, ça se passe à la maison en bois rond à Hull, ou bien donc au Conseil de l'association des retraités à Ottawa.
1921 Alors ce sont des rapprochements, des sons qui vont faire que les gens vont s'y sentir bien dans cette radio.
1922 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Alors ce qu'on peut envisager c'est que la programmation de CIRA Montréal sera acheminée au Camp Fortune et de l'Université Saint-Paul il y aura justement ces deux blocs de 30 minutes et possiblement des insertions de nouvelles qui seront acheminées de l'Université Saint-Paul.
1923 Mme SINCENNES: Oui.
1924 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Maintenant, vous nous parlez beaucoup dans votre demande de l'Université Saint-Paul et encore ce matin vous le mentionnez.
1925 Avez-vous un contrat, un arrangement écrit ferme avec l'Université Saint-Paul pour utiliser leurs installations? J'imagine qu'ils ont des installations qui rendraient possibles ces acheminements-là.
1926 Mme SINCENNES: Oui.
1927 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Les blocs c'est plus facile, mais il faut imaginer que des insertions de nouvelles plusieurs fois ça devient un peu compliqué.
1928 M. TRÉPANIER: Oui, nous avons déjà d'entente qui est signé avec l'Université Saint-Paul où on met à notre disposition des locaux, des studios, où l'équipement nous permet soit d'enregistrer ou de diffuser directement à l'antenne d'Ottawa en se détachant du signal de Montréal. Alors nous allons faire un peu des deux. Nous allons être présents à l'antenne de Montréal sur l'ensemble des territoires de Sherbrooke, Montréal, Ottawa/Hull, mais nous allons aussi pouvoir nous détacher.
1929 Alors ces ententes-là existent. L'Université Saint-Paul nous accueille. Nous allons y avoir notre siège social et nos studios.
1930 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Et ce protocole d'entente est-ce qu'il a été déposé au dossier?
1931 M. TRÉPANIER: Je ne suis pas sûr, mais nous pourrons le faire dès ce matin.
1932 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Alors vous imaginez à ce moment-là une présence à Montréal. Quand vous dites ça, vous voulez dire de la production qui se ferait à l'Université Saint-Paul qui serait acheminée à Montréal et ensuite à l'antenne et qui serait vue et à Montréal et à l'antenne.
1933 M. TRÉPANIER: Oui.
1934 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Et à ce moment-là cette production-là ne serait pas du genre local que Mme Sincennes décrivait.
1935 M. TRÉPANIER: Non, c'est en --
1936 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Ça serait de la programmation plus générale qui a une valeur pour les gens de Sherbrooke aussi bien que ceux de Montréal.
1937 M. TRÉPANIER: Oui, ça serait en plus.
1938 LA PRÉSIDENTE: En sus.
1939 M. TRÉPANIER: C'est ça.
1940 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Alors quand vous nous parlez d'une heure au moins, vous nous parlez de créations orales faites à Ottawa qui restent à Ottawa.
1941 M. TRÉPANIER: C'est ça.
1942 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Et qui sont insérées dans le signal qui provient de Montréal.
1943 M. TRÉPANIER: C'est ça.
1944 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Maintenant --
1945 M. TRÉPANIER: Mais pas tout le temps, excusez -- insérés dans le signal de Montréal ou insérés dans notre propre signal si on se détache.
1946 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Bien je veux dire c'est quand même le signal de Montréal avec cette petite partie qui serait remplacée.
1947 M. TRÉPANIER: Oui, d'accord.
1948 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Ou substituée.
1949 M. TRÉPANIER: D'accord.
1950 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Alors dans vos réponses à une lettre de clarification de lacunes, votre réponse, je crois, est en date du 31 juillet. On vous a demandé, puisqu'il s'agissait plutôt d'une répétition de l'amalgation de Montréal, d'indiquer si vous étiez prêts à accepter les mêmes conditions de licences, et vous avez répondu dans l'affirmative.
1951 Il y en a une de ces conditions qui vous lie à consacrer au moins 25 pour cent de votre programmation aux créations orales. Alors je suppose qu'il s'agit de 25 pour cent de 126 heures.
1952 M. TRÉPANIER: Oui.
1953 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Est-ce qu'à Ottawa il y aura seulement 25 pour cent de programmation orale à ce moment-là, ou si vous vous liez à 25 pour cent quand c'est un détachement mais si c'est en sus il y aura plus de 25 pour cent.
1954 M. TRÉPANIER: Oui, c'est un minimum de 25 pour cent.
1955 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Minimum, mais ça ce sont les conditions qui sont déjà attachées. Êtes-vous prêts à accepter que cette heure de création orale additionnelle à Ottawa la première année serait ajoutée aux conditions de licence à la licence que vous obtiendrez pour l'Outaouais?
1956 M. TRÉPANIER: Oui.
1957 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Parce que vous réalisez que bien que ce sont en partie les mêmes responsables, vous aurez à ce moment-là une licence pour l'Outaouais, une titulaire différente. Donc il y aura le 25 pour cent de 126 heures, plus cette heure, et vous seriez prêts à vous y engager.
1958 M. TRÉPANIER: Oui.
1959 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Il y a même dans votre demande, dans une lettre du 22 janvier, une suggestion qu'il y aurait un tiers de la programmation qui serait de productions locales, au moins un tiers.
1960 M. TRÉPANIER: Oui.
1961 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Ça c'est plus de 25 pour cent plus une heure.
1962 M. TRÉPANIER: C'est une erreur de votre humble serviteur --
1963 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Voilà.
1964 M. TRÉPANIER: -- qui est mathématiquement dyslexique. Je voyais 1, 2 et 3, et je suis tombé à un tiers. Ne me demandez pas comment, mais c'est ça. Alors ce n'est pas un tiers.
1965 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Alors c'est un minimum de 25 pour cent puisque vous entérinez ce que vous faites à Montréal plus cette heure la première année, deux heures la deuxième, trois heures par semaine la troisième année.
1966 M. TRÉPANIER: C'est ça.
1967 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Et possiblement, Mme Sincennes indiquait, qu'il y aurait en plus peut-être des détachements genre nouvelles.
1968 M. TRÉPANIER: Il existe déjà à CIRA-FM à Montréal des correspondances qui se font périodiquement, des correspondants de différentes régions qui racontent ce qui se passe dans leurs régions, ce qui est important, et cetera. Alors la même chose va se faire d'Ottawa comme ça se fait maintenant de Sherbrooke et d'ailleurs, pas seulement où il y a des stations de Radio Ville-Marie.
1969 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Et l'équipement à l'Université Saint-Paul est satisfaisant pour justement effectuer ces détachements?
1970 M. TRÉPANIER: Oui. Nous avons obtenu la liste des équipements et il est possible, avec l'addition d'une ligne, de transmission de Saint-Paul à Camp Fortune de diffuser directement en ondes comme d'enregistrer.
1971 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Maintenant, vous aurez une ligne pour -- le signal de Montréal serait acheminé directement à Camp Fortune.
1972 M. TRÉPANIER: Oui, par ligne.
1973 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Et quand il y a des collaborations de gens de l'Outaouais dans la programmation de Montréal, elle se fait à Montréal. Vous n'aurez pas une autre ligne de transmission.
1974 M. TRÉPANIER: Non, elle va être diffusée de Montréal.
1975 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Alors les gens de l'Outaouais se rendent à Montréal dans ce cas-là et produisent dans les studios montréalais?
1976 M. TRÉPANIER: C'est-à-dire que non. On ne va --
1977 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Comme "Bible en main", par exemple, comment l'acheminez-vous?
1978 M. TRÉPANIER: C'est enregistré à Ottawa.
1979 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Oh, c'est ce qu'on appelle, ceux d'entre nous qui sont plus vieux, "bicycling". C'est une cassette qui est transportée.
1980 M. ROY: Je donne l'exemple de Sherbrooke, par exemple, c'est par MP3, donc par Internet. Ils produisent et nous l'envoie par l'Internet.
1981 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Ah, ce n'est pas physique. Ce n'est pas comme dans l'ancien temps.
--- Rires / Laughter
1982 M. ROY: Que voulez-vous?
1983 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Bien dans l'ancien temps où en transportait justement quelques fois en avion. Moi je me souviens d'avoir travaillé avec des gens qui transportaient la programmation en avion, il y a dix ans, pour l'insérer parce que c'était la méthode la moins dispendieuse. Maintenant, évidement, les billets d'avion sont très dispendieux, les lignes le sont moins.
1984 Le personne que vous aurez là-bas, vous parlez dans votre lettre du 6 mars à la page 3 de recrutement d'artisans bénévoles, d'administrateurs, concepteurs, producteurs, réalisateurs, chercheurs, documentalistes, interviewers, animateurs, dans le milieu de l'Outaouais, et vous indiquez aussi dans votre présentation ce matin qu'il s'agira-là en partie de vos efforts pour le développement des talents canadiens, je crois.
1985 Pour une heure de programmation, deux blocs de 30 minutes, combien de gens prévoyez-vous entraîner, utiliser, pour ces deux blocs de 30 minutes la première année, et deux heures la deuxième?
1986 M. TRÉPANIER: Je vais laisser Pauline répondre à ça.
1987 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Et est-ce que ce seront vos bénévoles à vous? Allez-vous utiliser des gens à Saint-Paul? Je vois mal utiliser tous ces genres d'expertise pour deux blocs de 30 minutes de programmation. Alors expliquez-nous comment le personnel sera recruté, ce qui se passera à l'Université Saint-Paul. Est-ce que ce sera vos gens à vous, en partie les leurs, et cetera?
1988 Mme SINCENNES: Le recrutement va se faire de façon très élargie dans toute la grande région d'Ottawa/Hull et périphérie. Alors, bien sûr, l'Université Saint-Paul c'est un lieu qui devient privilégié à cause de son corps professoral, à cause des étudiants qui s'y trouvent, mais il y a aussi les individus qui vont se greffer à ça et qui viennent de l'extérieur de l'Université Saint-Paul.
1989 Dans la première année, je pense bien que le personnel requis -- d'abord, il va falloir commencer par faire de la formation avec ces gens-là -- c'est l'équipe technique qui va mettre en ondes l'émission, c'est une personne qui fait recherches et sans doute l'animation d'une émission, peut-être une recherchiste de plus ou un recherchiste de plus pour aller repérer les gens qui vont venir apporter cette matière-là.
1990 Je prévois que dans ce regroupement de blocs d'antenne, il pourrait y avoir en une première année le personnel d'antenne et de production, dix à douze personnes et à ce moment-là ça nous permet par en arrière de former les individus qui vont s'ajouter à ça. Ce qui arrive aussi c'est que vous avez -- prenons l'exemple de l'émission "Génération 2000". Il y a à un moment donné, un animateur ou une animatrice, qui peut faire cette émission-là. Elle peut-être confiée à cette personne-là pendant quelques semaines, peut-être une saison, une demi-saison, mais il faut bâtir l'équipe et permettre à d'autres personnes d'y accéder et d'apporter de la nouvelle matière.
1991 C'est un petit peu le plaisir qu'on aura d'apporter de l'eau au moulin et de nouvelles voix à l'antenne de Radio Ville-Marie.
1992 Il y aura toujours dans le circuit en ondes, en production, une dizaine de personnes, mais il va toujours y avoir en périphérie de ces gens-là une autre dizaine et une autre vingtaine de personnes parce qu'il faut absolument agrandir le bassin de collaborateurs dans cette production.
1993 M. TRÉPANIER: Si je peux ajouter, notre bassin de collaborateurs, de fabricants et d'artisans d'émissions est assez large parce qu'il y a les universités -- Saint-Paul, Ottawa, le Collège dominicain de philosophie et de théologie, Carleton. Il y a aussi les ambassades pour ce qui touche, par exemple, aux autres religions que les religions chrétiennes, en partie, et donc dans ce large bassin on pourra aller chercher l'expertise dont nous avons besoin, soit pour le contenu, soit pour la livraison du contenu, soit pour l'organisation du contenu.
1994 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Est-ce que dans ce protocole d'entente avec l'Université Saint-Paul que vous allez déposer au dossier, il y a question de rémunération à l'Université Saint-Paul pour quelque raison que ce soit?
1995 M. TRÉPANIER: Pas jusqu'à maintenant. Il y a indication qu'il pourrait y avoir une négociation poursuivie s'il y a question de rémunération. Nous n'en sommes pas encore là et on sait que ça sera peut-être un "truck", en ce sens que les bons procédés sont répartis entre les deux. Ça sera peut-être sans doute des montants pour les techniciens, mais à part ça il n'a pas été discuté d'argent, de montant, à ce moment-ci.
1996 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Vous vous attendez à ce que ce soit possiblement le cas.
1997 M. TRÉPANIER: Je pense que oui. Si on lit entre les lignes, on voit que ça s'en vient.
1998 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Ce serait la rémunération à leurs gens à eux ou est-ce que vous prévoyez avoir des postes rémunérés sous l'égide de Radio Ville-Marie Outaouais?
1999 M. TRÉPANIER: On prévoit sans doute un premier poste rémunéré, celui de directeur ou directrice de la programmation, c'est à voir. Mais ça va être en majorité du travail bénévole qui va être fait de tout le monde.
2000 Les seuls gens qu'on aura sans doute à payer ce sont les techniciens qui travaillent pour l'Université Saint-Paul. Donc on utilisera les techniciens de l'Université Saint-Paul qu'on paiera.
2001 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Vous avez déposé à notre demande un tableau que toutes les requérantes déposent au 9.1 du formulaire, vos activités financières, où elles sont en grande majorité pour -- là je parle des coûts d'exploitation, pas des investissements.
2002 Les coûts d'exploitation sont surtout pour les -- bien, il y 72 500 dollars par année, la première année, disons, sur un total de 75 000 pour le loyer à Radio-Canada, l'électricité et la ligne terrestre entre Montréal et Camp Fortune.
2003 Vous avez une autre ligne de dépense qui serait -- là je regarde le tableau en date du 1er septembre 2001, qui je crois est le plus récent. Ils s'agit de : dépenses services techniques, 72 500 dollars la première année.
2004 M. TRÉPANIER: Oui, je l'ai.
2005 LA PRÉSIDENTE: C'est bien le plus récent, le 1er septembre 2001?
2006 M. TRÉPANIER: C'est juste.
2007 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Maintenant, dépenses et administration générale, 3 000 la première année, et on va jusqu'à 5 000 en cinquième année. De quoi s'agit-il? Qu'est-ce qui est couvert par ces dépenses?
2008 M. TRÉPANIER: On parle de dépenses d'administration, mais en fait ça pourrait être des dépenses de production dans le sens qu'on embaucherait un directeur ou une directrice des programmes, si c'est nécessaire, parce qu'on pourra fonctionner aussi en comité de programmation.
2009 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Et cette somme-là est-ce qu'elle inclurait justement la possibilité dans le future de payer les techniciens de l'Université Saint-Paul? Est-ce que cette somme couvrirait cette dépense aussi?
2010 M. TRÉPANIER: En partie. On prévoit que les coûts de production --
2011 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Alors vous ne prévoyez pas que ce 3 000 là la première année -- 3 500 -- serait suffisant pour couvrir ces services.
2012 Maintenant, vous avez : dépenses autres que dépenses d'exploitation qui sont 6 000 dollars -- plus bas, sous autres.
2013 M. MAHEU: Le montant de 6 000 c'est l'amortissement des installations --
2014 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Ah, oui, oui, je vois. C'est un total, je m'excuse. On reprend l'amortissement. Je comprends, ça va.
2015 Maintenant, cette programmation-là elle va être totalement en langue française?
2016 M. TRÉPANIER: Oui.
2017 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Je vois à l'article 6.1 de votre demande où il y : autre langue officielle 1/126e dans une autre langue. De quoi s'agit-il?
2018 M. TRÉPANIER: Il s'agit, par exemple, de communautés religieuses -- là je ne parle pas de congrégations -- des gens de différentes religions qui n'auraient pas la possibilité de diffuser en français. A ce moment-là on pourrait leur faire un accueil.
2019 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Ça serait en langue anglaise à ce moment-là.
2020 M. TRÉPANIER: En langue anglaise ou --
2021 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Ou ça pourrait être italien.
2022 M. TRÉPANIER: Oui, oui.
2023 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Et il ne s'agit pas ici -- alors vous vous engagez vraiment à ce que votre programmation soit, sauf un maximum d'heure heure, en langue française.
2024 M. TRÉPANIER: Oui, parce qu'on sait déjà que, par exemple, dans la religion islamique dans la région d'Ottawa il y a des francophones, et dans les autres religions aussi il y a des francophones -- l'église unie, l'église anglicane. Quand ce ne sont pas nécessairement des francophones, ce sont quand même des gens qui peuvent s'exprimer à l'antenne en français.
2025 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Ce qui me donne un bon tremplin pour vous parler justement de l'équilibre qui est requis par la politique sur la programmation religieuse dans l'avis public 93-78. Comment fonctionnez-vous à Montréal à ce niveau-là pour assurer justement de rencontrer ce besoin d'équilibre, et comment fonctionnerez-vous dans l'Outaouais?
2026 M. ROY: A Montréal nous avons huit heures d'émissions oecuméniques en ondes. Nous avons aussi créé un comité oecuménique à l'Université de Montréal avec les différentes religions. Donc nous avons des partenariats avec l'église unie, les Anglicans, les Presbytériens, Luthériens, les Orthodoxes et nous avons aussi un partenariat inter-religieux, c'est-à-dire avec les Juifs et à l'occasion avec l'église islamique. Alors nous travaillons un petit peu dans ce sens-là.
2027 A l'occasion nous faisons des tables rondes de discussions et d'échanges sur les points communs, ce qui nous rallie. Nous avons une émission qui porte uniquement sur l'oecuménisme, une autre sur le dialogue inter-religieux et aussi certaines confessions, des émissions comme "Le chemin protestant", l'église orthodoxe, "Ce regard orthodoxe". Alors nous essayons nous aussi par un comité oecuménique de travailler ensemble sur cela.
2028 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Et dans l'Outaouais, est-ce que vous prévoyez qu'avec une heure de programmation par semaine, deux heures de programmation par semaine, vous pourrez justement reproduire cette façon de procéder, ou est-ce que vous vous fierez surtout sur la programmation en provenance de Montréal pour rencontrer cette exigence?
2029 M. TRÉPANIER: A Ottawa on veut suivre le même modèle, bien sûr, en plus petit à cause de l'heure de diffusion. Nous voulons aussi pas seulement ouvrir l'antenne aux autres de cette façon-là, à tout de monde de cette façon-là. Nous voulons aussi établir cet équilibre-là dans les reportages que nous allons faire, dans les nouvelles que nous allons faire, à moins qu'il s'agisse, bien sûr, de reportages de nouvelles qui touchent uniquement la question d'une église en particulier, mais autrement on veut ouvrir vraiment l'antenne à une comparaison de ce qui se fait partout ailleurs. C'est vraiment oecuménique.
2030 D'ailleurs nous sommes d'autant plus sensibilisés à ça que dans notre conseil d'administration il y a le responsable diocésain du diocèse d'Ottawa à l'oecuménisme. Donc c'est une sensibilisation que nous avons et nous voulons justement que l'antenne soit ouverte à tous en tout temps.
2031 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Oui, allez-y.
2032 M. ROY: Je veux rappeler aussi au niveau de l'oecuménisme, nous avons un partenariat avec le Centre canadien d'oecuménisme, avec qui nous travaillons régulièrement pour toutes les questions oecuméniques, et nous avons un membre -- d'ailleurs le directeur du Centre canadien de l'oecuménisme -- qui est sur le conseil d'administration de Radio Ville-Marie Montréal, donc pour toutes les questions oecuméniques, le dialogue inter-religieux.
2033 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Vous nous avez entendus, sans doute -- je crois que je vous ai reconnu dans la salle depuis hier matin, Monsieur, je crois.
2034 Vous nous avez entendus parler avec les requérantes d'hier avec beaucoup d'intérêt sur leurs initiatives vis-à-vis le développement des talents canadiens. Je vois que vous suggérez que l'entraînement et l'utilisation des bénévoles programmeurs de la région d'Ottawa vous permettra d'entraîner des gens, et cetera.
2035 Est-ce que vous avez d'autres projets qui viseraient à vous assurer que disons les artistes ou les producteurs de musique justement religieuse de la région, seraient encouragés, entendus à l'antenne, et cetera, malgré le fait que vous n'auriez qu'une heure de création orale? Qu'est-ce que vous allez faire pour faire votre part dans ce domaine-là puisque justement vous êtes en concurrence, comme vous le savez bien, avec plusieurs requérantes, et pour la fréquence et pour l'espace de la radio dans la région?
2036 M. TRÉPANIER: Bien sûr, la musique religieuse ça va être notre préoccupation de nous assurer que la musique religieuse que nous diffusons va répondre au moins aux critères établis par le CRTC, sinon les dépasser, et nous allons suivre, en fait, le modèle de Radio Ville-Marie Montréal à ce sujet-là.
2037 Peut-être que Jean-Guy peut nous en parler davantage de ce qui est déjà diffusé. Nous, nous allons le faire dans la mesure encore du temps d'antenne que nous avons, mais nous allons nous en préoccuper même pour ce petit temps d'antenne quand même.
2038 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Mais est-ce que, par exemple, il y aurait possibilité de vous engager à diffuser, même si c'est à l'antenne de Montréal et pas dans le détachement, de la musique qui proviendrait de l'Outaouais pour faire votre part vis-à-vis la population justement que vous allez viser avec cette nouvelle antenne, bien que ce serait fait indirectement.
2039 Mme SINCENNES: Je pourrait peut-être intervenir à ce moment-ci. C'est du rêve là. Si on associe le projet à du rêve, bon en voilà un.
2040 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Oh, non, ce n'est pas du rêve, Madame, et pour ceux qui justement font concurrence pour la fréquence, ils sont tout à fait intéressés à savoir ce que vous allez réaliser pour mesurer la valeur de leur requête contre la vôtre.
2041 Mme SINCENNES: Oui, oui, tout tient à la capacité d'obtenir les fonds, bien sûr, mais il existe dans la région d'Ottawa/Hull des groupes de chorales. Il y a le Festival de musique sacrée de l'Outaouais qui se tient tous les automnes et qui met en valeur des gens, des groupes d'ici. Je pense que l'antenne de Radio Ville-Marie Outaouais serait un lie privilégié pour diffuser les activités de ces gens-là.
2042 Alors ça oui, c'est un projet qui tient au fond -- qui va devenir disponible au fur et à mesure que la radio va s'implanter -- la radio locale va s'implanter dans la région. Alors dans l'immédiat c'est dans ce domaine-là que la promotion du talent local, régional musical peut se faire.
2043 Elle peut se faire aussi par le biais d'entrevues. Évidement, on peut passer une pièce musicale enregistrée à l'antenne, mais on peut aussi y faire connaître des jeunes qui endisquent soit de la chanson, de la musique, ou il y a des groupes de gospel qui peuvent venir nous parler de ce qu'ils sont à l'antenne. Je crois que c'est là une forme d'encouragement au talent local régional.
2044 Ces éléments-là peuvent très bien faire le local, mais ça peut aussi déborder et faire la grille de Radio Ville-Marie Montréal et de Sherbrooke. Donc ça veut dire que c'est une plus grande visibilité pour ces gens.
2045 M. ROY: Si je peux juste donner quelques commentaires. Un des objectifs de Radio Ville-Marie c'est de vraiment aller rejoindre les talents canadiens et de faire passer sur nos ondes des musiques, des pièces qu'on n'entend nulle part ailleurs. Alors, comme vous le savez, ce n'est pas facile d'entrer dans une station commerciale avec son disque tout neuf, et nous avons au fil des années permis à des jeunes auteurs de faire jouer leur musique en ondes.
2046 Je donne l'exemple de l'émission "Présence de l'orgue". Nous sommes la seule station qui diffuse une émission de musique d'orgue, dont 80 pour cent de la musique c'est de la musique canadienne.
2047 Donc nous avons essayé à travers les émissions de favoriser les talents canadiens et de leur permettre de prendre place chez nous. Et la même chose dans le chant choral, de faire connaître les chorales qui existent. Dans le chant religieux aussi, au travers des abbayes, que ce soit Saint-Benoît ou d'autres abbayes, pour faire connaître le chant sacré qu'on ne connaît peu ou pas dans d'autres stations.
2048 Alors ce qu'on a essayé de faire, nous nous sommes associés cette année avec le Conservatoire, la Faculté de musique de Montréal, la Faculté de musique de l'Université du Québec à Montréal, pour permettre aux jeunes musiciens de venir chez nous raconter et dire comment eux aiment la musique et quelle musique ils aiment et faire connaître leur musique. Alors c'est un peu la dynamique que l'on veut aussi répandre là où nous sommes.
2049 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Je retourne maintenant à la lettre du 31 juillet où vous vous engagez à respecter les mêmes conditions de licence de base qui sont rattachées à votre licence de Montréal, et qui dit, comme nous avons discuté plus tôt, qu'au moins 25 pour cent de la programmation sera dévouée aux créations orales. Il reste donc 75 pour cent du 126 heures qui serait de la musique.
2050 Vos conditions de licence, si je comprends bien, en ce moment il y a un maximum de 30 pour cent de Catégorie 21 et un minimum de 70 pour cent de Catégorie 3, et que vous vous êtes engagés à respecter 15 pour cent de contenu canadien dans la Catégorie 3.
2051 Je me réfère maintenant -- alors vous allez respecter la même chose à l'antenne de Radio Ville-Marie Outaouais.
2052 M. TRÉPANIER: Oui, c'est juste.
2053 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Et je remarque que vous avez demandé au Conseil en 1999-2000, je crois que la décision -- en 1999 de réduire à 10 pour cent le contenu canadien de Catégorie 3, ce qui vous a été refusé en partie parce que vous vous êtes trouvés en non-conformité sur trois paliers : la soumission du banc témoin, le respect du contenu canadien pour la Catégorie 2, la musique de Catégorie 2, et le respect du contenu canadien de 15 pour cent pour la musique de Catégorie 3.
2054 Puisque vous voulez une antenne maintenant dans l'Outaouais, il nous importe à nous de savoir si vous êtes en conformité. Alors si je vous demandais des rubans témoins, disons pour la semaine dernière ou cette semaine, est-ce qu'on vous trouverait en conformité dans le sens que vous auriez des rubans témoins complets, et est-ce que le contenu canadien serait respecté?
2055 M. TRÉPANIER: Jean-Guy va répondre à ça.
2056 M. ROY: J'ai reçu par télécopieur hier -- j'ai fait venir l'ensemble des pièces musicales. Donc pour l'ensemble du contenu de notre programmation musicale, nous visons disons une moyenne de 50 pour cent musicale pour l'ensemble, nous avons 29-79 pour cent de contenu canadien dans l'ensemble de nos pièces musicales, pour l'ensemble du contenu.
2057 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Et ça c'est quelle semaine?
2058 M. ROY: La semaine qui vient de terminer, je crois.
2059 LA PRÉSIDENTE: La semaine dernière.
2060 M. ROY: Ce serait la semaine du 14, je crois?
2061 M. ROY: Oui.
2062 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Le 14 mai. Maintenant, si vous répartissiez le 50 pour cent entre Catégories 2 et 3, vous obtenez quoi?
2063 M. ROY: Je ne l'ai pas calculé moi-même, je ne veux pas --
2064 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Peut-être que vous pourriez le faire avant la réplique, et me rassurer que vous avez rencontré les pourcentages que vous deviez rencontrer parce que vous serez renouvelés en 2003, mais évidement si vous élargissez vos ailes, nous voulons nous assurer qu'elles ont toutes leurs plumes.
2065 M. ROY: Parfait. Merci beaucoup.
2066 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Le sondage. Normalement, comme vous voyez dans les documents des requérantes qui sont en concurrence avec vous, on fait un sondage plus ou moins traditionnel pour essayer de déterminer la demande dans le marché.
2067 Le vôtre n'est pas tout à fait traditionnel, ce que vous avouez dans votre lettre du 6 mars, mais j'aimerais comprendre un peu mieux comment vous y êtes arrivés. Vous nous en parlez à l'annexe 5 de votre demande et vous avez utilisé surtout les journaux.
2068 Expliquez-nous exactement le genre de cheminement que vous avez fait.
2069 M. TRÉPANIER: Ce qu'on a fait c'est qu'on a fait un sondage gratuit. Alors c'est très particulier. Ce que nous avons fait c'est que nous avons demandé aux journaux de passer un entrefilet dans leurs pages -- les hebdomadaires des deux rives de l'Outaouais -- et nous avons envoyé le même texte aux paroisses pour les bulletins paroissiaux, et ce texte d'à peu près cinq, six lignes, disait tout simplement : Êtes-vous intéressés à écouter, obtenir, une radio religieuse de langue française dans la région? Si oui, appelez-nous à tel numéro, et c'est comme ça que le sondage a été fait, et il y a eu près de 400 appels en fait de ce petit entrefilet tout simple qui a été mis dans le journal.
2070 C'est ce qui nous a permis d'aller ensuite aussi de recruter des sociétaires pour la coopérative.
2071 LA PRÉSIDENTE: A ce moment-là, est-ce que vous seriez d'accord que ce que vous avez recueilli c'est l'apport de ceux qui sont intéressés?
2072 M. TRÉPANIER: Exactement.
2073 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Seulement ceux qui sont intéressés.
2074 Alors vous avez ensuite extrapolé de 325 noms -- ça c'est en plus des réponses affirmatives sur boîte vocale? Vous dites qu'en extrapolant les réponses, au moins 2 000 personnes ont approuvé le projet. De quoi s'agit-il?
2075 M. TRÉPANIER: En fait, extrapoler on a pris une pratique qui existe dans les sondages de faire une extrapolation. Bien sûr, ce n'est pas une extrapolation scientifique, au contraire, ici, mais on s'est dit que si on peut extrapoler dans les sondages professionnels, peut-être qu'on pourrait nous aussi dire -- la personne qui nous a appelés va souvent parler pour plus qu'elle-même, elle va souvent parler pour les autres, son entourage, sa famille. C'est dans ce sens-là qu'on a fait une extrapolation.
2076 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Et est-ce que c'est une raison financière? C'est parce que vous n'aviez pas les capacités financières de vous permettre un sondage ou parce que vous n'y croyez pas?
2077 M. TRÉPANIER: C'est parce qu'on n'avait pas l'argent pour le faire parce qu'on y croyait fermement. On aurait voulu le faire, mais on n'avait pas l'argent pour le faire.
2078 LA PRÉSIDENTE: A la validité de l'extrapolation.
2079 M. TRÉPANIER: Oui.
2080 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Mais même si vous aviez des doutes, vous ne seriez pas le premier. Alors c'est simplement une question monétaire, financière.
2081 M. TRÉPANIER: Uniquement.
2082 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Et je remarque -- nous allons en parler plus tard -- par exemple, je connais assez bine la région de l'est Ontario -- nous allons en parler plus tard quand nous parlerons de la fréquence et de la couverture proposées qui ne seront peut-être pas couvertes, par exemple, je regarde Hawkesbury, le Carillon. Ces gens-là sont peut-être intéressés mais nous allons parler plus tard de si oui ou non vous allez les atteindre avec l'antenne.
2083 Donc ça va avoir un impact, je suppose, étant la plus grande ville entre ici et Montréal, sur votre sondage si ces gens-là croient qu'ils seraient rejoints par l'antenne et peut-être qu'ils ne le seront pas.
2084 Maintenant, au niveau du marché vous nous avez suggérés à la partie 4.1 du formulaire, que vous auriez une part de marché calculée comme d'habitude, âge 12 et plus, de 0,5 pour cent la première année jusqu'à 1,1 pour cent la deuxième année.
2085 Vous nous avez parlé de CHRI ce matin. Ils ont, je crois, 1 pour cent de la population francophone et anglophone, et nous nous posions des questions sur la concurrence que vous pourriez leur apporter.
2086 Cette lettre dont vous faites mention qui indique qu'ils n'ont pas de problème avec votre projet, est-ce qu'elle a été déposée en intervention parce que moi je n'ai rien vu dans la demande.
2087 M. TRÉPANIER: On nous a dit qu'elle avait été envoyée au CRTC.
2088 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Je ne crois pas qu'elle y soit.
2089 M. TRÉPANIER: On l'a ici.
2090 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Vous avez une copie?
2091 M. TRÉPANIER: Oui.
2092 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Alors peut-être que vous pourriez la déposer avec le secrétaire parce qu'il nous importe, évidement, de voir si l'effet que vous pourriez avoir sur CHRI est un problème.
2093 Vous savez aussi que CHRI, on leur a permis de faire 15 minutes par semaine, je crois, de publicité en français. C'est bien par semaine? Oui, par semaine, c'est ça, de radiodiffusion. Donc ils doivent croire qu'ils ont eux aussi -- bien, ils ont une écoute de 1 pour cent de la population francophone.
2094 Si eux n'ont pas de problème à ce que vous vous installiez dans la région, est-ce que vous vous voyez leur présence ici comme étant un fardeau pour vous -- pas un fardeau, mais un concurrent de taille puisqu'ils ont 1 pour cent du marché tandis que vous ne prévoyez que 0,5 pour cent?
2095 M. TRÉPANIER: Non, pas vraiment. Nous sommes un complément, en fait, CHRI nous sommes le complément francophone, mais encore plus que ça. CHRI est surtout une station radiophonique de musique, du rock religieux, entre autres, beaucoup plus qu'une station qui fait des grands reportages. Alors nous sommes complémentaires, surtout du fait qu'on attire la francophonie, nous nous trouvons complémentaires. Nous donnons aux francophones quelque chose qu'ils n'ont pas ailleurs.
2096 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Est-ce que vous projetez dans votre 0,5 pour cent de parts de marché rapatrier ou détacher de l'auditoire de CHRI quelques francophones qui évidement écoutent CHRI en ce moment?
2097 M. TRÉPANIER: C'est que nous allons leur donner un choix. Il y a beaucoup de francophones qui ne viendront pas simplement parce que c'est francophone, il y en a, mais on se trouve à donner aux francophones un choix d'écouter l'une ou l'autre.
2098 Nous ne sommes pas en concurrence sur le marché avec personne parce que pour nous la publicité en ondes c'est un peu la cerise sur le gâteau. Nous n'allons pas solliciter activement de la publicité en ondes. Notre attitude envers la publicité en ondes c'est surtout si ça peut rendre service à quelqu'un qu'on passe leur publicité en ondes, nous le ferons, mais nous n'allons pas être à la chasse à la publicité.
2099 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Dans la publicité, parce que je crois qu'en ce moment leurs revenus proviennent à peu près à 50 pour cent de la publicité.
2100 A part la langue, quelle différence voyez-vous entre ce que vous proposez ou ce que vous diffusez à Montréal, et la programmation de CHRI?
2101 M. TRÉPANIER: Entre --
2102 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Parce que quand vous dites que ce sera complémentaire, est-ce qu'il s'agit seulement de la langue ou si vous voyez une différence importante? Vous avez mentionné la musique plus européenne que canadienne.
2103 M. TRÉPANIER: C'est une différence culturelle très forte entre les deux parce qu'on a beau dire que la musique c'est universel, oui, c'est vrai, mais la musique a quand même des incidences culturelles très grandes, et d'ailleurs le monde de la radio, le monde musical, s'ouvre de plus en plus aux autres musiques -- les musiques africaines, les musiques asiatiques. Il y en a encore peu, mais il y en a plus qu'il n'y en a jamais eu.
2104 A ce moment-là, nous différerons de CHRI par la musique mais aussi par la nature des émissions qui seront beaucoup plus des émissions de réflexion sur des événements ou des modes de pratiquer la foi enseignée par les églises.
2105 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Au niveau des finances, dans la lettre du 6 mars 2001 vous indiquez où vous en êtes avec les fonds. Vous nous en avez reparlé aujourd'hui, mais je dois avouer que je n'ai pas eu le temps de vraiment comparer. Est-ce que vous nous avez parlé ce matin où vous en êtes avec les fonds ou seulement du financement?
2106 De toute façon, on voudrait savoir où vous en êtes maintenant. Est-ce que vous avez dépassé ce que vous nous indiquez? Non, je pense que vous n'avez parlé que des dépenses d'exploitation, mais pas des fonds.
2107 M. TRÉPANIER: Non.
2108 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Alors, où en êtes-vous maintenant? Est-ce que vous dépassez les sommes que vous avez décrites le 6 mars -- à la page 3 de votre lettre en date du 6 mars?
2109 M. TRÉPANIER: En fait, nous avons obtenu les fonds d'études de faisabilité, ensuite l'ébauche de mise en oeuvre du projet. Nous avons des appuis de principe, et nous avons quelques promesses d'appui financier, non pas spécifique, mais très large.
2110 Alors nous aurons donc le financement et ça sera le résultat des campagnes que nous ferons, la campagne annuelle du radio-don auquel nous allons participer, et les campagnes de souscription auprès des églises, auprès des organismes religieux, et auprès aussi du grand public.
2111 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Vous mentionnez, justement, dans cette lettre-là que Radio Ville-Marie -- il semblerait que le radio-don annuel organisé génère 150 000 par année, et que vous en auriez une quote-part.
2112 Est-ce que vous pouvez nous dire quelle serait la proportion de cette somme qui reviendrait à Ville-Marie Outaouais?
2113 M. TRÉPANIER: Oui. Premièrement, ça n'a pas été encore discuté comme tel. Sherbrooke participe déjà, je pense, au partage des sommes qui sont recueillies. Nous n'y participons pas encore puisque nous ne sommes pas en ondes, mais on croit qu'avec notre arrivée en ondes ça va contribuer à augmenter la cueillette, le montant d'argent qui va être cueilli lors du radio don, puisqu'à ce moment-là le radio don va être diffusé dans tout l'Outaouais, des deux côtés de la rivière.
2114 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Est-ce qu'il y aurait une augmentation à cette somme?
2115 M. TRÉPANIER: Oui, il y aura sûrement --
2116 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Et est-ce que vous prévoyez qu'on déterminerait la somme qui a été relevée dans l'Outaouais et que vous auriez cette somme entière ou si elle serait partagée avec Montréal, dans la même proportion qu'elle a une heure --
2117 M. TRÉPANIER: C'est ce qu'il reste à déterminer, mais je suis certain que ça ne sera pas un partage strictement mathématique. Ça va être un partage aussi selon les besoins des stations.
2118 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Et peut-être selon les heures de diffusion aussi.
2119 M. TRÉPANIER: Probablement, mais il y aura des pondérations à ce moment-là pour le partage des sommes recueillies.
2120 M. ROY: Si je peux ajouter un commentaire.
2121 Au conseil d'administration on a créé un comité pour échanger sur ces ententes avec Ville-Marie future Outaouais et Sherbrooke, et effectivement on a déterminé le territoire et les sommes reçues, il y a un pourcentage qui sera retourné à Radio Ville-Marie, soit 25 ou 30 pour cent des sommes amassées, donc en pourcentage davantage qui sera retourné aux régions.
2122 LA PRÉSIDENTE: J'ai maintenant des questions techniques.
2123 Évidement, vous nous avez entendus hier. Nous sommes intéressés quand il y a concurrence à comparer les demandes et l'utilisation de la fréquence de façon optimale ou maximale et au niveau technique, et évidement aussi au niveau du service à la population. Par exemple, est-ce qu'il y a un besoin qui n'est pas rempli au niveau de la pertinence de la programmation, et aussi au niveau technique.
2124 Dans votre demande, dans la lettre du 6 mars, à la page 2, tout à fait au bas de la page, et ce matin dans votre présentation, vous nous indiquez quelles sont les limites de la couverture et vous en extrapolez une population. Mais si je compare ces limites avec la carte, même au 0,3 millivolt par mètre, je ne trouve pas, par exemple, que vous couvririez Hawkesbury du côté Ontario à l'est, ni Prescott au sud, ni Pembroke à l'ouest, et je ne crois pas du côté québécois Gracefield au nord, Grenville à l'est, qui est tout à fait au même endroit que Hawkesbury, ni Fort Coulonge à l'ouest. Je ne trouve pas ces villes-là a l'intérieur du 0,3 millivolt par mètre.
2125 Alors je suis un peu curieux à savoir pourquoi vous établissez ces limites qui dépassent la couverture, j'avoue théorique, mais quand même en FM on sait à peu près beaucoup plus facilement qu'en AM quelle sera la couverture réelle.
2126 Alors expliquez-moi pourquoi vous indiquez ces barèmes ou ces limites? Vous y indiquez ces villes-là -- par exemple, Hawkesbury, 10 000 personnes c'est beaucoup si de fait vous ne les atteignez pas.
2127 Alors expliquez-moi pourquoi le 0,3 millivolt arrête à Rockland et Hawkesbury est plusieurs kilomètres plus loin.
2128 M. TRÉPANIER: C'est que dans le mémoire technique, l'ingénieur-conseil a tout simplement indiqué la diffusion optimale, c'est-à-dire la diffusion rapprochée du territoire qu'il fallait absolument couvrir. Mais en nous indiquant par la suite la puissance de la fréquence, il nous a dit qu'on pourrait se rendre jusqu'à ces limites-là.
2129 La limite de Hawkesbury, Hawkesbury est en partie exclu. C'est qu'au-delà de Hawkesbury le signal de Montréal est difficile à prendre dans plusieurs endroits. Alors Hawkesbury n'est pas nécessaire inclus comme tel. C'est qu'on se rend jusqu'à Hawkesbury, non pas nécessairement on l'incluant.
2130 Par contre, ça donnera probablement la possibilité -- parce qu'il va y avoir un chevauchement à ce moment-là -- aux gens de Hawkesbury, par exemple, de choisir s'ils veulent écouter Montréal ou s'ils veulent écouter Ottawa comme ils le font pour d'autres stations, pour des stations commerciales. Ils sont à peu près dans le milieu.
2131 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Est-ce que vous pouvez confirmer que les gens à Hawkesbury captent le signal de Montréal?
2132 M. TRÉPANIER: C'est ce qu'on nous a dit, que le signal se rendait. Beaucoup de voyageurs, d'ailleurs, disent qu'ils commencent à perdre le signal une fois Hawkesbury passé.
2133 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Mais est-ce que vous avez regardé dernièrement la couverture théorique de votre signal de Montréal?
2134 M. TRÉPANIER: Non.
2135 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Parce que la couverture théorique ici couvre à peine Rockland qui est quand même très loin de Hawkesbury.
2136 M. TRÉPANIER: Oui.
2137 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Mais votre ingénieur vous dit que vous vous y rendrez.
2138 M. TRÉPANIER: Oui.
2139 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Et la même chose pour Grenville qui est tout à fait à côté.
2140 M. TRÉPANIER: Oui.
2141 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Et au sud, Prescott?
2142 M. TRÉPANIER: C'est peut-être un peu loin là Prescott. On a mis des périphéries --
2143 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Ça va. Il va falloir de l'aide céleste --
2144 M. TRÉPANIER: Oui.
--- Rires / Laughter
2145 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Pour se rendre.
2146 M. TRÉPANIER: Des anges, oui.
2147 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Alors vous êtes d'accord que c'est peut-être un peu optimiste de voir les paramètres de la couverture comme comprenant ces villes.
2148 M. TRÉPANIER: Oui.
2149 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Maintenant, parlez-nous de -- vous savez que vous êtes en concurrence avec d'autres requérantes, et au niveau technique et au niveau du marché.
2150 A votre avis, est-ce que le marché de l'Outaouais est un marché qui devrait être considéré comme bilingue, ou si vous examinez le marché comme étant francophone et anglophone de façon discrète au niveau des auditoires, des revenus, et cetera, puisque vous faites partie des demandes qui sont en concurrence?
2151 M. TRÉPANIER: Le marché d'Ottawa/Hull, surtout du côté de la rive ontarienne, c'est un marché bizarre pour les francophones. Il y a un marché strictement francophone, il y a un marché bilingue, mais il y a aussi un marché anglophone où il y a beaucoup de francophones qui se contentent d'annoncer exclusivement dans le marché. La raison qu'on nous donne tout le temps -- ça c'est l'expérience, par exemple, d'hebdomadaires où j'ai travaillé -- c'est que tout le monde comprend l'anglais alors pourquoi dépenser pour annoncer en anglais et en français. Alors c'est un marché qui assez bizarre.
2152 Du côté de la rive québécoise, le marché est plus clair, il est plus francophone qu'anglophone, malgré qu'il le soit aussi parce que les commanditaires du côté hullois veulent aussi attirer des gens de la rive ontarienne chez eux.
2153 Alors c'est un marché partagé, mais nous n'y sommes pas tellement attachés puisque ce n'est pas notre objectif que d'aller dans le marché vraiment. Ce n'est pas notre objectif.
2154 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Au niveau de la publicité.
2155 M. TRÉPANIER: Oui, oui, au niveau de la publicité.
2156 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Maintenant, nous avons demandé à toutes les requérantes aussi puisqu'il y a concurrence à plus d'un niveau, de nous expliquer pourquoi sur 99,9, par exemple, nous devrions vous donner la fréquence à vous. Alors je vois ça moi dans deux volets dans cette situation-ci.
2157 Il y a le volet technique. Est-ce que vous utilisez la fréquence de façon optimale comparé aux autres? Il s'agit de pouvoir de couverture. Est-ce qu'en utilisant cette fréquence-là vous l'utilisez de façon optimale?
2158 Et au niveau de la programmation, puisque c'est une programmation en grande majorité importée de Montréal qui, on pourrait suggérer, a moins de pertinence pour la population de l'Outaouais. Alors rassurez-nous à ces deux paliers-là. Le palier utilisation de la fréquence, vous êtes sans doute au courant du pouvoir utilisé par les autres qui suggèrent 97,9, et au niveau de la programmation -- la diversité et la pertinence de la programmation.
2159 Maintenant, au palier technique, si vous avez du mal à nous parler de l'utilisation de la fréquence, le pouvoir que vous allez utiliser, et cetera, vous pouvez le faire plus tard à la réplique si vous trouvez ça un peu difficile et que vous voulez parler à vos gens techniques.
2160 Alors deux paliers : l'utilisation de la fréquence de façon maximale ou optimale, et deuxièmement, la pertinence de cette programmation dans l'Outaouais.
2161 M. TRÉPANIER: Sur le côté technique, notre ingénieur-conseil nous a dit que 97,9 répondait amplement à notre visée quant à notre cible d'auditeurs, que les autres fréquences qui étaient là on pouvait toujours les utiliser, mais qu'elles dépassaient quand même le territoire qu'on voulait rejoindre. Alors c'est pour ça qu'il nous a conseillé de plutôt réserver le 97,9. Ça répondait amplement à nos besoins. On n'avait pas besoin d'aller plus loin.
2162 Pour la programmation, c'est que, bien sûr, la programmation de Montréal c'est beaucoup une programmation universelle. Il y a des segments qui sont strictement montréalais lorsqu'on annonce des événements qui se déroule dans la région métropolitaine, mais à part de ça c'est une programmation universelle qu'on aurait avantage de pouvoir diffuser même si nous diffusons indépendamment complètement de Montréal. C'est neuf parce qu'il n'y a pas d'autres radios qui font cette programmation religieuse, oecuménique et en français.
2163 Il y a très peu d'éléments religieux autant à la radio qu'à la télévision que les journaux. C'est d'ailleurs la plainte de beaucoup d'églises qui disent que les médias ne s'intéressent pas aux problèmes religieux et aux grands problèmes des enjeux et du sens de la vie et des besoins de nourrir les croyances et la foi d'une foule de gens.
2164 Alors c'est dans ce sens-là que nous croyons que l'utilisation que nous ferions de cette fréquence serait un avantage et une exclusivité en somme pour les francophones des régions visées.
2165 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Vous suggérez justement ce que vous venez de répéter au sujet de ce que sont vos besoins, et à la lettre du 6 mars, à la page 2, vous nous dites justement au deuxième paragraphe, qu'à la suggestion de votre ingénieur-conseil, alors je cite :
"... qui trouvait que la fréquence disponible sur la bande communautaire 89,9 possédait une puissance supérieure dont nous n'avions pas besoin". (Tel que lu)
2166 Mais vous continuez, par exemple, que vous avez aussi découvert qu'une autre fréquence sur bande commerciale, 95,7, se trouve également disponible et que vous avez indiqué dans une lettre du 22 janvier, je crois, à Mme Menke, que vous seriez prêts à utiliser cette fréquence.
2167 Maintenant, je vois que -- bien cette fréquence, évidement, on a déposé un certificat ou deux requêtes sur cette fréquence. Est-ce que vous avez obtenu d'Industrie Canada un certificat technique pour cette fréquence alternative, 95,7?
2168 M. TRÉPANIER: Ça c'est notre ingénieur-conseil qui pourrait répondre à ça. Il nous a dit qu'il avait fait la recherche -- c'est lui qui a fait la recherche -- et qu'il a aussi trouvé que 97,5 pourrait être --
2169 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Non, 95,7.
2170 M. TRÉPANIER: Oui, 95,7.
2171 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Mais on sait déjà que elle est utilisable. On a déjà deux requêtes.
2172 M. TRÉPANIER: Oui.
2173 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Mais vous personnellement, vous n'avez pas de certificat technique pour cette fréquence dans votre proposition.
2174 M. TRÉPANIER: Non.
2175 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Maintenant, je remarque que dans l'utilisation de 97,9, vous allez vous fier sur l'installation de Radio-Canada au Camp Fortune, et vous avez déposé au dossier justement un protocole déjà avec eux très final, mais qui indique au paragraphe 18 que :
"Cette lettre ne s'applique qu'au service de la diffusion FM sur la fréquence 97,9 et que tout autre service proposé par Radio Ville-Marie devra faire l'objet d'une évaluation et d'une nouvelle négociation". (Tel que lu)
2176 Maintenant, si par hasard vous diffusiez sur 95,7, est-ce qu'il vous importerait que ce soit fait justement des installations de Radio-Canada à Camp Fortune?
2177 M. TRÉPANIER: Oui, c'est toujours --
2178 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Au niveau financier c'est important pour vous.
2179 M. TRÉPANIER: Oui.
2180 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Alors vous seriez co-cités avec SRC.
2181 Si vous avez suivi le dossier, vous avez sans doute pris connaissance du fait que M. Farmer qui justement lui aussi propose l'utilisation de 95,7 du Camp Fortune, a de sérieux problèmes.
2182 M. TRÉPANIER: Oui.
2183 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Alors vous êtes au courant que c'est une problématique d'utiliser cette fréquence du Camp Fortune à cause d'interférences avec Radio-Canada lui-même. Alors vous êtes au courant de ça.
2184 M. TRÉPANIER: Oui.
2185 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Et si par hasard vous avez un certificat technique pour cette -- si vous l'avez en main, vous ne l'avez pas déposé. Vous n'en avez pas de certificat technique pour 95,7.
2186 M. TRÉPANIER: Non.
2187 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Alors voilà. Je vous remercie de votre patience.
2188 M. TRÉPANIER: Merci.
2189 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Mes collègues ont peut-être des questions.
2190 Le Conseiller Demers.
2191 CONSEILLER DEMERS: Merci, Madame la Présidente. Bonjour, Madame, Messieurs.
2192 Seulement deux points que je voudrais couvrir avec vous.
2193 Ce matin dans votre présentation verbale, à la page 11, vous parlez de "rejoindre un bassin de 100 000 francophones". En tout cas je compare ça à d'autres chiffres qui nous ont été donnés dans les derniers jours.
2194 Pouvez-vous m'indiquer la source de ces 100 000 personnes?
2195 M. TRÉPANIER: C'est en équipe qu'on a fait l'évaluation, à partir aussi des données de recensement de 1996 pour les francophones qui habitent -- mais encore là, les données de 1996, le recensement est toujours problématique en ce qui touche les francophones, même celui de cette année. Ça ne reflète pas nécessairement exactement la configuration des francophones d'une région. Ça dépend comment la question est posée. Ça dépend surtout comment les gens perçoivent cette question-là. C'est le problème entre la langue parlée à la maison et la langue maternelle. Il y a beaucoup de gens qui ne sont pas trop clairs à ce sujet-là.
2196 Alors c'est en calculant approximativement, dans le fond, notre expérience lorsque nous étions radiodiffuseurs nous-mêmes auparavant qu'on est arrivés à ce bassin approximatif de 100 000 francophones, en regardant comment les villes aussi disent combien elles ont de francophones chez elles.
2197 CONSEILLER DEMERS: Ça comprend des francophones des deux côtés de la rive.
2198 M. TRÉPANIER: Oui, et de l'est à l'ouest aussi.
2199 CONSEILLER DEMERS: Alors peut-être en glissant sur l'organisation de votre coopérative, j'ai compris des réponses et des explications que vous avez données ce matin, que votre coopérative est organisée. Vous avez, je suppose, une assemblée de fondation.
2200 Est-ce que vous pouvez élaborer là-dessus? Vous avez combien de sociétaires?
2201 M. TRÉPANIER: On a près d'une centaine de sociétaires. C'est 97 je pense, et comme de raison c'est toujours ouvert. Ils ont fait du recrutement via les journaux et via le bouche-à-oreille, et cetera, et la composition du conseil d'administration, on s'assure qu'il y a une représentation équitable de gens de la rive québécoise et de gens de la rive ontarienne, de gens des différentes églises, et cetera, et il y a même une obligation que les deux vice-présidents, il y en ait un ou une qui vienne du Québec et l'autre vienne de l'Ontario.
2202 CONSEILLER DEMERS: C'est écrit dans vos règlements?
2203 M. TRÉPANIER: Dans les statuts et règlements c'est indiqué. On n'y échappe pas.
2204 CONSEILLER DEMERS: Et actuellement, quelle est la proportion entre les deux rives?
2205 M. TRÉPANIER: Ça n'a pas été fait cette proportion-là. Je ne saurais pas dire vraiment. La proportion n'a pas été faite, des sociétaires.
2206 CONSEILLER DEMERS: Non, du conseil d'administration.
2207 M. TRÉPANIER: Oh, le conseil d'administration, il y a plus de gens de l'Ontario. C'est un conseil de dix -- je l'ai ici.
2208 M. TRÉPANIER: C'est un conseil de douze, et sur les douze, il y en a deux du Québec sur douze, dont le premier vice-président est du Québec.
2209 CONSEILLER DEMERS: D'accord.
2210 Et quand vous avez parlé des diocèses tout à l'heure dans votre présentation, ce sont tous les diocèses de la région?
2211 M. TRÉPANIER: Oui, ce sont les quatre diocèses qui couvrent la région, soit Gatineau, Hull, Ottawa, Mont-Laurier, pour la Basse et Haute Gatineau, et Alexandria à l'est d'Ottawa, et ça comprend également les territoires des autres églises qui ne sont pas divisées exactement de la même façon et qui n'ont pas nécessairement non plus des diocèses comme tel, mais ça comprend quand même les membres des autres églises qui demeurent sur ces territoires-là, dépendamment de comment ils sont organisés, et tous n'ont pas des évêques non plus.
2212 CONSEILLER DEMERS: Est-ce que la coopérative est incorporée en Ontario ou au Québec?
2213 M. TRÉPANIER: La coopérative est incorporée au fédéral de sorte qu'on puisse mieux couvrir les deux territoires.
2214 CONSEILLER DEMERS: Et son bureau chef est où?
2215 M. TRÉPANIER: Dans le moment le bureau chef est à Ottawa. Il est temporairement sur la rue King Edward chez les Frères des écoles chrétiennes et il sera aménagé bientôt à l'Université Saint-Paul d'Ottawa sur la rue Main.
2216 CONSEILLER DEMERS: Merci, Madame. Merci, Messieurs.
2217 Merci, Madame la Présidente.
2218 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci, Conseiller Demers.
2219 Conseiller Cardozo, s'il vous plaît.
2220 CONSEILLER CARDOZO: Merci, Madame la Présidente.
2222 M. TRÉPANIER: Bonjour.
2223 CONSEILLER CARDOZO: Premièrement j'ai une question au sujet de la musique. Vous avez beaucoup d'expérience dans ce domaine avec votre radio à Montréal. Est-ce que vous trouvez qu'il existe assez de musique religieuse canadienne en français pour votre service, assez de quantité, assez de choix?
2224 M. TRÉPANIER: Pauline pourrait répondre à ça.
2225 Mme SINCENNES: Je n'ai pas compris.
2226 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Vous écoutiez en anglais et monsieur parlait français.
--- Rires / Laughter
2227 CONSEILLER CARDOZO: Je vais reposer la question. Est-ce que vous trouvez qu'il existe assez de musique religieuse canadienne en français pour votre service, assez de quantité, assez de choix, avec votre expérience à Montréal?
2228 M. ROY: Je peux mentionner aussi, à Montréal il existe de la musique religieuse vocale, instrumentale, mais ce n'est pas suffisant. Je trouve que le bassin est réduit. Une des priorités, nous voulons -- c'est un des projets que nous avons à Montréal -- lancer un concours de création de musique religieuse parce que c'est un manque, je trouve, dans la musique moderne religieuse.
2229 Nous avons un répertoire certes de chants sacrés, de musique sacrée, mais c'est encore assez réduit et je pense qu'on peut puiser dans le folklore ou dans la musique québécoise francophone, mais il y a aussi à créer beaucoup à ce niveau-là.
2230 CONSEILLER CARDOZO: Avez-vous des idées ou des plans pour augmenter la quantité de cette musique?
2231 M. ROY: Il y a beaucoup de gens, il y a des créateurs francophones en musique religieuse. Nous avons beaucoup de gens qui souhaitent mettre sur disque leurs créations. Le problème c'est que souvent beaucoup de gens composent de la musique, mais elle n'est pas sur disque et c'est un défi important dans le domaine religieux de mettre sur disque toutes ces créations que des jeunes compositeurs réalisent.
2232 CONSEILLER CARDOZO: Quelle est votre solution?
2233 M. ROY: Un de ces objectifs, on a approché quelques maisons de production pour développer ce volet. Entre autres, Novalis s'est lancé cette année dans la production de disques religieux qu'ils ne produisaient pas avant parce que là aussi il y a un besoin important à ce niveau-là. Nous avons des chants sacrés qui nous viennent de l'étranger, mais il faut faire développer ce talent chez nous parce qu'il y en a beaucoup.
2234 CONSEILLER CARDOZO: Maintenant, à Montréal, vous jouez quelle proportion de la musique française?
2235 M. ROY: La musique française -- je ne sais pas si j'ai tous les chiffres ici -- je dirais que c'est -- je lance un chiffre -- à 90 pour cent c'est francophone, donc très peu de musique anglophone.
2236 Le 10 pour cent va dans le grégorien, va dans l'anglais, aussi de la musique juive, parce qu'il y a une émission "Chalom", il y a un peu de musique juive. Nous avons aussi de la musique portugaise parce que nous avons une émission portugaise qui porte sur la musique, et à l'occasion espagnole, mais très peu. Mais musique portugaise, oui.
2237 CONSEILLER CARDOZO: Au sujet de CHRI, vous avez parlé de l'appui par l'autre radio religieuse dans la région.
2238 Est-ce que vous prévoyez des opportunités ou la nécessité pour une coopération entre les deux services, peut-être dans le domaine des nouvelles ou pour l'enregistrement des événements spéciaux, et cetera? Est-ce qu'il existe des synergies pour la programmation locale?
2239 M. TRÉPANIER: Non, nous ne croyons pas parce que Radio Ville-Marie va être très différente de ce qui est fait à CHRI. Alors nous ne croyons pas qu'il pourrait y avoir des échanges à ce niveau-là.
2240 CONSEILLER CARDOZO: Mais vous avez parlé d'un complément de ce service.
2241 M. TRÉPANIER: Complément dans le fait que nous existions. C'est dans ce sens-là que c'est complément.
2242 CONSEILLER CARDOZO: Mais le --
2243 M. TRÉPANIER: Parce qu'à CHRI s'il y en a qui veulent écouter du rock chrétien en anglais ils pourront aller à CHRI.
2244 CONSEILLER CARDOZO: Je comprends. Merci beaucoup.
2246 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci, Monsieur Cardozo.
2247 Maître Haykal-Sater.
2248 Me HAYKAL-SATER: Merci, Madame la Présidente.
2249 J'aurais quelques questions pour M. Trépanier et M. Roy. C'est une question de clarification et d'ajout de détails sur les questions de Mme Wylie.
2250 En regardant le tableau des activités financières -- et je vous réfère au tableau du 1er septembre 2001 -- vous indiquez, Monsieur Trépanier, que vous ne prévoyez pas de recettes tant au niveau national ou local. Cependant, dans votre présentation vous nous avez indiqué que l'une des quatre principales sources de revenus serait la publicité.
2251 Ce que je voudrais avoir c'est vraiment de la clarification sur ce que vous entendez par la publicité, tant que précisément est-ce que vous prévoyez des annonces publicitaires séparées de Montréal? Qu'est-ce que vous entendez par la publicité comme telle?
2253 M. TRÉPANIER: Oui. Par publicité on entend des annonces publicitaires venant des entreprises et des individus, professionnels et autres, d'ici, de la région, qui pourraient être diffusées et à Montréal et à Ottawa ou seulement à Ottawa, c'est possible. Mais les revenus, on a mis publicité à revenus tout simplement pour dire que c'est là. Mais c'est vraiment une partie infime de ce qu'on espère comme revenus.
2254 M. ROY. Un complément. L'objectif est d'avoir le moins de publicité possible, alors on ne veut pas aller dans ce courant-là. Les gens nous écoutent parce qu'il y a moins de publicité, et aussi la publicité ne va pas toujours de pair avec des contenus que nous proposons en termes d'étique, en termes de valeurs, en termes de préoccupations spirituelles. Alors c'est pourquoi la publicité pour nous n'est pas l'enjeu majeur.
2255 Me HAYKAL-SATER: Cependant, Monsieur Roy, si je comprends bien, à CIRA à Montréal vous avez une condition de licence prévoyant un montant --
2256 M. ROY: De 504 minutes/semaine.
2257 Me HAYKAL-SATER: De publicité.
2258 M. ROY: Oui.
2259 Me HAYKAL-SATER: Alors cette publicité, est-ce qu'on entend que la publicité sera la même publicité qui est déjà diffusée à Montréal, qui va être diffusée à Ottawa?
2260 M. ROY: Possiblement, oui. Il pourrait y avoir sans doute de la publicité peut-être des gens de l'Outaouais, parce que souvent nos libraires ont aussi une librairie à Ottawa ou bien à Sherbrooke, les libraires qui publicisent chez nous.
2261 Me HAYKAL-SATER: Alors vous me conduisez vraiment à la question que je voulais vous poser.
2262 M. ROY: Allez.
2263 Me HAYKAL-SATER: Alors si vous prévoyez que dû à l'ajout du marché d'Ottawa, alors à l'accroissement de la population qu'on ajoute à votre marché, alors est-ce que vous anticipez une augmentation de la valeur de votre publicité à Montréal?
2264 M. ROY: Possiblement, mais on n'a pas réfléchi sur cette question-là actuellement étant donné que la publicité pour nous n'est pas l'élément majeur. Sans doute qu'on pourrait peut-être réfléchir sur ce volet-là, mais ça n'est pas dans notre réflexion actuellement.
2265 Me HAYKAL-SATER: Alors si vous prévoyez que peut-être il y a une possibilité d'augmentation de la valeur de votre publicité, est-ce qu'il y aurait des considérations pour Radio Ville-Marie Outaouais?
2266 M. ROY: Oui, comme c'est prévu dans un protocole d'entente avec Sherbrooke où nous donnons une partie des publicités, s'il y a publicités. On n'en a pas actuellement. L'expérience en deux ans nous a montré qu'on n'en a pas, sauf les libraires qui ont parfois une maison d'édition à Sherbrooke et à Montréal, mais à part ça on n'en a pas.
2267 Me HAYKAL-SATER: Encore une question sur le même tableau.
2268 Monsieur Trépanier, vous avez indiqué que le poste de directeur sera ajouté. Alors ce sera, comme vous avez précisé, rémunéré en partie.
2269 M. TRÉPANIER: Oui, c'est une possibilité que ce soit rémunéré, et peut-être une possibilité aussi que ce soit bénévole, mais vu qu'il s'agit d'un poste névralgique, on s'attend à ce que ce soit sans doute rémunéré à cause de l'importance de la présence de cette personne-là à la radio.
2270 Me HAYKAL-SATER: Alors le poste de directeur et les techniciens que vous prévoyez je pense aux studios de l'Université Saint-Paul, à combien vous anticipez l'augmentation de vos dépenses d'exploitation? Comme je note dans le tableau, à la programmation, zéro, développement des talents canadiens.
2271 Alors je suppose que vous prévoyez une augmentation dans vos dépenses d'exploitation si on ajoute et le poste de directeur et les postes de techniciens.
2272 M. TRÉPANIER: Oui. En fait, nous ne nous sommes pas tellement penchés là-dessus parce qu'on attendait les conditions que l'Université Saint-Paul est prête à nous faire. A Saint-Paul ce qu'on pense qui va être notre dépense ce sont les techniciens.
2273 Me HAYKAL-SATER: D'accord.
2274 M. TRÉPANIER: A part ça, il n'y a probablement d'autres dépenses.
2275 Me HAYKAL-SATER: Alors est-ce que vous pouvez me donner un chiffre ou un estimé?
2276 M. TRÉPANIER: Non, je ne le sais pas. Je ne pourrais pas vous donner un chiffre. On n'a pas réfléchi à ça.
2277 Me HAYKAL-SATER: D'accord.
2278 C'est tout. Merci, Madame la Présidente.
2279 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci, Maître Haykal-Sater.
2280 Nous vous remercions de votre coopération et patience. Nous avons travaillé assez fort.
2281 Il est maintenant 11 heures moins dix. Donc nous reprendrons dans 15 minutes, à 11 h 05 approximativement et nous vous reverrons évidement pendant la semaine.
2282 We will be back at five after eleven.
2283 M. TRÉPANIER: Merci à tout le monde.
2284 M. ROY: Merci.
2285 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Oh, j'ai oublié de vous demander, Monsieur Trépanier, comme on l'a fait pour les autres, si vous aviez des réponses à nous donner à des questions que nous n'avons pas posées.
2286 Est-ce que vous voulez clore avec --
2287 M. TRÉPANIER: Je n'ai pas vraiment de réponse. La seule chose c'est que nous sommes une radio issue de la base, premièrement dans l'idée d'avoir cette radio-là à l'exemple de ce qui se faisait à Montréal. Alors ce sont les gens de la Basse qui ont commencé à mijoter cette idée d'avoir cette radio.
2288 Ce sont les gens de la Basse qui se sont réunis pour en étudier la possibilité et voir à la mise en oeuvre des structures nécessaires pour répondre à ce que vous voyons comme une demande importante, et puis ce sont les gens de la Basse qui vont la faire cette radio-là.
2289 Ensuite, c'est une radio qui s'inscrit dans un courant spirituel qui est de plus en plus présent aujourd'hui à travers le monde. Même les gens qui ne fréquentent pas une église et qui n'assiste à aucun culte, même ces gens-là découvrent que le spirituel est une dimension importante de l'humanité et veulent s'en convaincre d'avantage et découvrir les possibilités qu'il y a pour eux d'un bonheur humain dans la dimension spirituelle de la vie.
2290 Les études, les journaux en font état, et tout ça, et les gens découvrent aussi à la suite des études que justement le bonheur pourrait peut-être être davantage dans cette dimension-là.
2291 Les sondages disent même que les gens qui prient, les gens qui méditent, sont des gens qui sont plus heureux, sont des gens qui sont moins stressés, et sont des gens qui risquent de vivre plus longtemps.
2292 Alors c'est un peu dans cette poussée qu'on s'inscrit d'une fin du spirituel, autant des gens qui fréquentent des églises accusent des fois -- ou déplorent souvent -- qu'on ne leur donne pas assez d'alimentation spirituelle, on parle trop de dogmes et de doctrines et de structures, et qu'on ne les nourrit pas suffisamment sur le plan spirituel. Alors la radio vient répondre à cette fin, à cette quête.
2293 C'est ce que je voulais tout simplement ajouter tout en vous remerciant et en remerciant également les nombreuses personnes qui nous ont appuyés, dont nous sommes bien heureux. Le quotidien de langue française d'Ottawa/Hull, Le Droit, trouve que nous sommes une bonne idée.
2294 Merci, Madame la Présidente.
2295 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci, Monsieur Trépanier et vos collègues, Madame Sincennes.
2296 Nous reprendrons maintenant à 11 h 10.
2297 We will be back at 11:10.
--- Upon recessing at 1055 / Suspension à 1055
--- Upon resuming at 1112 / Reprise à 1112
2298 THE CHAIRPERSON: Order, please. A l'ordre, s'il vous plaît.
2299 Alors nous poursuivons avec la demande suivante.
2300 Madame Poirier, s'il vous plaît.
2301 MS POIRIER: Thank you, Madam Chair.
2302 The next application is presented by Harvard Developments Inc. on behalf of a corporation to be incorporated to carry on an English-language specialty FM radio station in Ottawa/Hull.
2303 The new station would operate on frequency 89.9 MHz, Channel 210C1, with an effective radiated power of 40,000 watts.
2304 The applicant proposes a new adult contemporary/smooth jazz service.
2305 MR. COWIE: Chairperson Wylie, Commissioners, ladies and gentlemen, good morning -- good afternoon I guess soon.
2306 My name is Bruce Cowie, Vice-President of Harvard Developments, the applicant for The Breeze, an FM license serving the market of Ottawa/Hull.
2307 Before beginning our presentation, I would like to introduce the other members of our team.
2308 On my right is Paul Hill, the President and CEO of Harvard Developments. To Paul's right is Clayton Bzdel, Vice-President, Investments for Harvard Developments. To my immediate left is Michael Olstrom, who is the Operations Manager for Regina Radio. To Michael's left is Debra McLaughlin, Vice-President, Director of Research Airtime Sales Incorporated.
2309 In the back row behind me, starting from your right to left, is John Donnelly. John is the President of Smooth Productions, a Vancouver-based concert production company involved in the creation of a variety of Canadian talent initiatives.
2310 Beside John are Jan and Ted Hasiuk, President and Vice-President respectively, of JazzLynx, a company that has researched and followed the evolution of the Smooth Jazz format for more than 10 years and manages several smooth jazz artists across Canada. Ted also produces and hosts a weekly show called Café Jazz that airs on CJUM in Winnipeg. In just recent days, as a matter of fact, has become available in Toronto as being heard on CJRT.
2311 We are delighted to appear before the Commission to present our second application for a new adult contemporary/smooth jazz service, this time to serve the market of Ottawa/Hull.
2312 We are equally pleased about the opportunity to discuss with you the reasons Harvard views this hearing as critical to it's plans to grow in the radio business.
2313 Madam Chairperson, this application provides the rare opportunity to expand our radio business at a time when increasing consolidation is making acquisition of new stations in major markets very difficult.
2314 Expansion into larger markets is critical to maintaining the viability of radio enterprises. It is becoming increasingly obvious that if you cannot expand your market coverage you will not continue to operate.
2315 We recognize that you have many competing applicants before you and that we must measure up in that competition. For this reason I would like to start by drawing your attention to why we believe our proposal is the best use of this available frequency.
2316 To begin with, we are offering a service that addresses a musical preference clearly identified by consumers in our research. We tested more than one format and, in the end, the market told us what they wanted and what was missing. The Breeze is their NAC/Smooth Jazz choice. It is fresh, it is different and it has appeal.
2317 Secondly, the format of The Breeze is of interest to the wide range of cultures and ethnic groups that are represented in Ottawa/Hull. The high ratio of music to spoken word, the inclusion of instrumental performances, and the phenomenal worldwide appeal of smooth jazz, positions The Breeze as uniquely able to serve the entire market.
2318 Third, the financial commitment we have made to Canadian talent development will foster new local and Canadian Smooth Jazz talent. Several of our initiatives are new to the system. We believe that the level of funding we are supplying, in combination with our focus on directly supporting the artist, will have significant impact.
2319 Fourth, we are a new voice in the market. Research in support of this application as well as in the public domain, continues to show high levels of interest among consumers in having new voices and more choices in programming and news. Harvard is not an incumbent and therefore brings diversity in ownership and perspective to this market.
2320 Fifth, Harvard has a corporate record of community service. And we think that in the case of an intimate and intensely local medium like radio, the ability to "connect" with the community is fundamentally important. We will apply this philosophy to our new station.
2321 And, finally, our continued success in radio broadcasting in markets that have not been blessed with periods of sustained growth or prevailing economic robustness speaks of our ability to develop and maintain both a listening and advertising base. We have the experience, we have a solid business plan, and we have a great proposal for National Capital Region radio.
2322 To tell you about the programming side, I will turn to Michael.
2323 MR. OLSTROM: Thank you, Bruce.
2324 Our market research revealed a level of dissatisfaction with current radio choices that was significant. Only 27 per cent of the market were satisfied with available formats.
2325 Particularly dissatisfied were people who listed new age contemporary, smooth or traditional jazz artists as preferred listening choices. This same group stated a stronger likelihood of spending more time with radio if artists they prefer were played as part of a rotation.
2326 When asked about The Breeze, better than 60 per cent of this group stated they would definitely or probably listen.
2327 So what is the NAC/Smooth Jazz sound?
2328 NAC/Smooth Jazz is a hybrid format drawing artists from many diverse musical backgrounds. It blends smooth vocals with contemporary instrumentals in a unique and progressive sound. It combines several musical streams: pop, new adult contemporary, easy listening, modern instrumentals, world beat and jazz selections.
2329 The success of this format has been driven by its commercial appeal. Its distinctive listening experience has met with tremendous success in the US and Europe.
2330 Not surprisingly, several of today's top pop performers have jazz or blues repertoires. While these selections are rarely aired on commercial stations, a listener to NAC/Smooth Jazz is likely to hear familiar artists performing selections that are not heard on mainstream services. Artists such as k.d. lang, Sting and Sarah McLachlan have works that are ideal and would be unique to the Breeze. The artist recognition is a tremendous asset to the growth of this format as listeners have an immediate sense of familiarity.
2331 Still, The Breeze will be unlike anything heard in the market. It is new music. In fact, over 70 per cent of the music The Breeze will play is not available on existing Ottawa/Hull stations. Furthermore, many of the artists will be new to the radio broadcasting system. It is a fresh, unparalleled service that will provide a choice the community wants.
2332 NAC/Smooth Jazz stations are characterized by a contemporary "easy listening" sound designed to soothe and relax. These stations typically include "specialty" programming blocks during which more traditional jazz music is featured.
2333 Many artists working in this format have evolved their styles and have their roots in traditional jazz, gospel, R&B and new age. This contributes to the format's eclectic sound and the difficulty in categorizing music selections.
2334 Despite the broad mix of artists that make up the format, it has characteristics that distinguish it from others. It relies on melodies and harmony to create a very polished "feel good" sound. It creates a mood.
2335 While it is difficult to describe in words, the sound is easily identifiable. Let's take a listen to the Breeze. Please look through your printed PowerPoint presentation.
--- Audio clip / Clip audio
2336 MR. OLSTROM: That is the musical sound Ottawa/Hull listeners will hear on The Breeze.
2337 I apologize to the Commission, our video presentation crashed just moments before we got started.
2338 The Breeze will offer a new voice and perspective for news service in the National Capital Region. Our focus will be on local news coverage, but will also include national and international news and business news which recognizes the smooth jazz listener's interest in global events and issues. Newscasts on the Breeze will be scheduled in peak listening periods and on weekends.
2339 Our broadcasting philosophy, which is based on community service, will always be reflected in our on air presentation. The unique music selections on the Breeze will be augmented by special features such as "The Top 10 at 10". It's a traditional top ten countdown but with a focus on NAC/Smooth Jazz songs and artists. "Saturday Night Blues", from legends of the deepest south to Canada's newest blues artists. This show will focus on the heart and soul of the blues.
2340 "Jazz Fest Radio" brings the spirit of the annual Ottawa International Jazz Festival to local radio each week. "Forays in Future Jazz", this show will feature one of the most vibrant genres in jazz and will be hosted by Ian Menzies, a Vancouver based pioneer in the field. "World Beats" is a collection of the world's exotic music that will familiarize Ottawa/Hull listeners with Cuban rhythms, Latin, reggae, calypso and so much more.
2342 MR. COWIE: The growth in popularity of the NAC/Smooth Jazz format is undeniable and the increasing number of venues and the attendance at jazz festivals attests to the public's support for these artists. Yet the development of Canadian talent in this area has not historically received the attention ti deserves. Even with the introduction of a second and possibly third smooth jazz format in Canada, there is still considerable need for investment in the development of these artists.
2343 For that reason, Harvard Developments has taken a very strategic approach in financing the financing of Canadian talent. To go through that I will ask John Donnelly to speak.
2344 MR. DONNELLY: Thank you, Bruce. Good morning.
2345 The Breeze will provide $2.1 million over the term of its licence that will directly benefit new and emerging artists. We have worked very closely with local institutions to identify existing programs that are suited to developing artists in this genre.
2346 More importantly, however, is that we have spent considerable time consulting with the artist community and the local associations to develop new initiatives that will create the types of immediate and long term benefits that are necessary to develop talent in this relatively new area.
2347 All of our proposals are aimed at supporting the artist directly and have been created to ensure that it is the source of the music, the artists themselves, that benefit.
2348 The first set of investments is designated for one of the leading organizations in the local jazz community, the Ottawa International Jazz Festival. The Breeze will support this organization with an annual contribution of $100,000 to be administered in four key components.
2349 There will be an annual cash contribution to directly fund the presentation of local artists each year at the festival. We believe that giving these musicians the opportunity to work and perform with internationally recognized artists will not only give them exposure to a wider audience, but will also contribute meaningfully to their growth as performers.
2350 Secondly, The Breeze will help to institute a new smooth jazz composers and improvisers residency. The idea is to have an internationally renowned composer or performer work with 10 to 12 of Ottawa's best local artists in a residency program that will focus on writing and performing original music.
2351 At the end of the program, the resident composer will give a concern that will be open to the public and will feature the individual and collected works from the week. The Breeze will provide $15,000 annually to this innovative residency.
2352 The Breeze will give a further $15,000 annually to offset the costs for a new Smooth Jazz Showcase Concert Series. The concerts we have proposed will be held every five to six weeks between September and May. A total of six events with a special focus on new and original music. This showcase series will put emerging and established bands in the spotlight with headline performances at Ottawa's best venues.
2353 The Breeze will also provide $45,000 for the production of The Breeze New Founds CD, a new venture also to be administered by the Ottawa International Jazz Festival.
2354 This CD will support three local smooth jazz artists each year by providing them with valuable recording time at a professional recording studio. The artists will have the opportunity to record three songs each and it will be our intention to press 5,000 CDs and donate the proceeds from the sales of these CDs to a local charity.
2355 These four components comprise a commitment of $700,000 to be administered by the Ottawa Jazz Festival Society in direct support of new smooth jazz artists.
2356 A second investment is a brand new idea that we know will be particularly beneficial to artists. It's called The Breeze Artist Travel Assistance Program. The Breeze will contribute $45,000 to the Council for the Arts in Ottawa which will administer this new fund to help offset the cost of travel expense for local artists wishing to perform for audiences outside the National Capital Region.
2357 The Artist's Travel Assistance Program will fund 15 to 20 tours per year by local artists which will broaden both their experience and their audience exposure. The CAO will establish guidelines, create application forms and they will recruit a qualified to jury to review the applications.
2358 The fund itself will fill an obvious and critical void in supporting new and emerging artists and will encourage Ottawa/Hull's artists to reach out to a broader audience.
2359 The Breeze will also contribute $12,500 to Bluesfest, an established community festival dedicated to showcasing the best of local and international blues artists. The festival will use these funds to add a smooth jazz stage to its annual event.
2360 We will also assist Bluesfest by providing an additional $12,500 to help with their ongoing Blues in the Schools education program. This initiative brings the sounds of the blues into local schools through live performances and workshops.
2361 The Breeze will provide the Department of Music at the University of Ottawa with an annual amount of $15,000 to further music scholarship programs.
2362 We approached the National Arts Centre and enlisted their help in developing a new concert series focusing on smooth jazz in their new Fourth Stage theatre. The Breeze has allocated $40,000 annually to create artist workshops to coincide with this exciting new performance series in this tremendous venue.
2363 Another community initiative that supports the smooth jazz artists is the Acoustic Waves series produced by The Great Canadian Theatre Company. This program features a variety of music such as world beat and new adult contemporary. The $10,000 that we will provide will help keep this monthly venture afloat.
2364 We will also designate $25,000 to FACTOR to provide financial assistance for the production of videos and CDs by Ottawa region artists working in the smooth jazz genre.
2365 And finally, The Breeze will set aside a further $40,000 per year in order to respond to requests from the local arts community that will inevitably develop over the course of the seven year licence. This flexibility will allow us to react to initiatives that could not be contemplated at this time but are in and of themselves sound investments in Canadian talent.
2367 MR. COWIE: Thank you, John.
2368 This summarizes the cash portion of our commitment to Canadian talent development, over $300,000 each year for a total of $2.1 million. However, realistically we have to do more and we are pleased to do more.
2369 We will draw attention to the many jazz and blues events taking place around the city and across Canada. Our Web site will help showcase local artists to the world. We will supply on air support to the many initiatives and organizations working on behalf of the artist and we will bring the spirit of this adventurous, progressive music to local radio.
2370 We now turn to our President, Mr. Paul Hill, to summarize our application.
2371 MR. HILL: In summary, Harvard brings to this application a format that is perfect for the Ottawa/Hull market, a music genre which has broad cultural appeal and reaches an audience that is underserved, air play for a new generation of artists that will drive the success of the format, a strategic approach in financing the development of emerging artists, a $2.1 million CTD commitment focused on developing and showcasing Canadian and local talent to create international stars, a diverse news voice, strong community emphasis and an opportunity for the Commission to add a new voice and ownership to the Ottawa market.
2372 In closing, we are a private company without access to public market capital. We have made a long term commitment to radio broadcasting and believe that it is critical to our survival to expand in an industry that is rapidly consolidating to a few large players. We believe that our application is competitive and best fulfils the needs of the National Capital Region.
2373 Thank you, Madam Chairperson, members of the Commission, and we look forward to your questions.
2374 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Hill, and your colleagues and welcome. I will now ask Commissioner Cardozo to ask the questions that he has carefully prepared.
2375 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thanks, Madam Chair, and welcome all of you. You have drawn the short straw again, Mr. Cowie. We had the pleasure of a conversation at the last hearing in Vancouver.
2376 MR. COWIE: We have got to stop meeting like this.
2377 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I notice you didn't say it's not the short straw. I think I might have changed some of these questions.
2378 Let me just start with a few things on the ownership issue. I will first go through the issues that I will talk about.
2379 First, ownership; second, programming; third, listener demand; fourth, market potential and business case; fifth, CTD; sixth, staffing and seventh, technical and frequency issues. Can you hear me well enough? Is the sound system working okay?
2380 MR. COWIE: Yes.
2381 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I want to go over some of the ownership issues primarily because there has been a change in your ownership structure or at least in the structure of the application from the time you filed until now. What I would like to do is just clarify a few issues for the record so we have a clear understanding.
2382 The applicant is now Harvard Developments Inc. on behalf of a corporation to be known as The Breeze. Is that correct?
2383 MR. COWIE: I am going to ask Clayton Bzdel to respond to these questions, Commissioner Cardozo.
2384 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Sure.
2385 MR. BZDEL: Good morning. We had originally anticipated incorporating a new corporation called The Breeze Inc. to facilitate the partnership with the Craigs. With the exodus of the Craigs from the application, we probably would have this licence in our current corporation.
2386 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: The applicant would then simply be the corporation. It wouldn't be a new corporation. It would simply be Harvard Developments Inc.
2387 MR. BZDEL: Correct.
2388 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: In schedule 9 of the application dated January 26, it is noted that Craig and Harvard would each hold 50 Class A voting shares. The issue of voting shares then is not an issue any longer.
2389 MR. BZDEL: That's correct.
2390 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. From what I gather, the other part was that there won't be two Board members who are Bruce Cowie and Paul Hill in that case. The Board will simply be the Board of Harvard.
2391 MR. BZDEL: Yes, that's correct.
2392 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. And who are the Board members of Harvard?
2393 MR. BZDEL: They are Paul Hill and his father, Fred Hill.
2394 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. So then, Mr. Cowie, you won't be a Board member in relation to this radio station.
2395 MR. COWIE: We have not discussed that, but I will have that conversation with Mr. Hill.
2396 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I am not advocating for you or anything.
2397 MR. COWIE: I want to thank you for the idea.
2398 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Make sure I get the cut at the end of the day.
2399 MR. HILL: The answer to that question is yes.
2400 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I will send you the bill later.
2401 You had filed on the record a letter of agreement between Craig and Harvard -- and forgive me for going through these details but I do need to get these on the record clearly.
2402 There was a letter dated May 17, 2000 and then a covering letter dated January 15, 2001, which was part of this application. I assume that that letter is null and void or does not apply to this application in any way?
2403 MR. BZDEL: That is correct.
2404 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Regarding the letter from Wellington West Capital International, there are two letters on the record, dated January 25, 2001, one of which is notarized, for a commitment for financing in that letter indicated for Craig.
2405 Could you tell us whether you have the same commitment either from Wellington West or from any other source.
2406 MR. BZDEL: We do not have that commitment, but we believe that the financial information that we filed under a request for confidentiality clearly shows that Harvard has the financial capability to meet the commitments of this application.
2407 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: The last question for now is on the ownership matter.
2408 Can you tell us whether this application is as strong as it was when you filed it in terms of programming, experience and financing.
2409 MR. COWIE: It is at least as strong and probably stronger. This smaller group has been more focused over the last period of time, particularly in the programming side of the application, in refining CTD and a strategic focus there.
2410 It certainly is not in any way diminished from what was before you originally in the written application. We would suggest that it has strengthened.
2411 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: That is more in terms of programming. I am thinking in terms of financing and experience.
2412 MR. COWIE: We certainly have long experience, and the financing is not an issue. Again, there would be no diminishment at all.
2413 MR. HILL: I was just going to say that we have 25 years in the broadcasting business since we started. We have a strong management group and a strong group of talented people that work for Harvard.
2414 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you. Let me move to programming. I am going to have to make this up as we go, because we have a couple of new figures today.
2415 In terms of the split between Category 2 and Category 3, as I understand the application, it was more like 65:35, and today you are suggesting 60:40 -- 60 per cent Category 2, easy listening, adult contemporary, and 40 per cent Category 3, jazz.
2416 Is that correct?
2417 MR. COWIE: I didn't think that that had changed from our original application.
2418 MR. OLSTROM: In our supplementary brief we committed to 35 per cent minimum from Category 34.
2419 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: That is where I am getting it from.
2420 MR. OLSTROM: Programming, if you look at the three-hour example within our supplementary brief, we are actually at about a 60:40 as far as Category 3 is concerned versus Category 2.
2421 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Regarding Canadian content, it is to be 25 per cent Category 3 and 35 for the two combined. I had a question as to what it would be for Category 2 alone, and I notice in the table attached to your presentation today you might have that question answered for me.
2422 So I have it correct that in the application regarding Canadian content, your proposal is to be 25 per cent for Category 3 and 35 per cent for both 2 and 3 combined.
2423 Is that correct?
2424 MR. OLSTROM: Combined, yes.
2425 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So that would give us for Category 2 -- you are saying today in the chart attached here, 50 per cent from Category 2.
2426 MR. OLSTROM: Correct.
2427 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you.
2428 As I understand Category 2, the range of music is pretty wide. I am wondering if at the end of t he day we end up with more of an AC easy listening type of station than a smooth jazz station.
2429 We have been talking about your station as a smooth jazz station, but I see that today you are talking more NAC/Smooth Jazz. Is that correct?
2430 Take the time you want to give us as clear a picture as to what it is you are proposing. If I have any fuzziness on it, correct me on that.
2431 MR. OLSTROM: I think there are some philosophical differences as to what smooth jazz is. What we are proposing is an NAC/Smooth Jazz format. It is not what I would consider, from a programming perspective, as an AC station. A large portion of group 2 is pop music that would be played on the radio stations would come from familiar artists. However, they would not necessarily be songs that would be heard on AC stations.
2432 MR. COWIE: In addition, Mr. Cardozo, the high instrumental part of the playlist would remove that from an AC station, which is predominantly vocals.
2433 The other thing is that what has happened in the period since the Vancouver hearing is that we have had a series of ongoing consultations with Commission staff. We have been watching the format evolve in the United States and elsewhere. Our issue at that time was categorization: where do the songs fall, where they hit, and trying to realize how that alignment works inside of a specialty licence.
2434 We have been pleasantly surprised as we moved along that it is going to be easier for us to get to the higher content levels and to a higher mix of the Category 3 music than we thought it would be.
2435 It is still going to be a test over time, but it is more doable.
2436 It may look like it would tend to an AC station, but that is not the intent. And that is not what it will sound like.
2437 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: That is interesting, because the playlist you had given us, according to your calculation, was 50 to 60 per cent Category 3, subcategory 34.
2438 I am wondering, given your playlist was 50 to 60 per cent Category 3, why you are coming in with a proposal for 40 per cent Category 3.
2439 MR. OLSTROM: Actually, a minimum 35. Part of the reason for doing so was to alleviate some of the cross-classification issues that we were concerned about with the Commission when it came to classifications of songs.
2440 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Let me go back to a question that I asked at the beginning.
2441 Category 3, then, is not 40 per cent.
2442 MR. OLSTROM: No.
2443 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: You are saying a minimum of 35 per cent.
2444 MR. OLSTROM: Minimum of 35 per cent. But in reality, from the sample list of how it breaks down, is there is approximately in our sample list 55 per cent of the songs fall within Category 34, on average.
2445 MR. COWIE: That is a change in classification since the filing. In order to be completely up to date, we have brought sample lists of what the station would play and played those back against our commitments.
2446 For the record, we have asked for a minimum of 35 per cent to start, and that will change and evolve over the period of the licence.
2447 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Do you see making a commitment as to how that would change over time between say year one and year seven? Do you see it going up from 35 per cent to something else by the time you get to year seven?
2448 MR. COWIE: Yes, we do and we see the Canadian content level improving in Category 3. I would suggest that about the mid term of the licence we should get to the point where it is fully dedicated to the NAC/Smooth Jazz format; that we have enough smooth jazz music contributing from Category 3. We need to grow that.
2449 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I am listening for a number here. You don't have to commit. I am just asking if you are --
2450 MR. COWIE: I am going to have Ted Hasiuk speak to this. He programs NA smooth jazz every day.
2451 Where is that point of time, Ted, and what will it look like?
2452 MR. HASIUK: When we were speaking in our meetings, we figured somewhere in about the fifth year we could see the percentage of Canadian artists who play smooth jazz rising to a level so that we could have 35 per cent Canadian content within Category 3.
2453 At that point we would estimate that we should be easily able to handle 60 to 65 per cent from Category 3, with a full inventory of Canadian artists.
2454 That would consequently cause the NAC component or adult contemporary component to drop proportionately.
2455 So there would perhaps be fewer Canadian artists from that category being played; but overall, we would be able to main, and in fact possibly increase from 35 per cent Canadian content over all.
2456 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: You can live with that?
2457 MR. COWIE: Yes.
2458 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: This is a competitive hearing, so I can't push you to change things. I just want to get a clear idea about where you see this whole thing going.
2459 In terms of the proportion of instrumental to vocal music, is it about two-thirds/one-third, or did I see something else?
2460 MR. OLSTROM: It is approximately 60:40. On our sample list it actually works out to 58 per cent instrumental, 42 per cent vocal.
2461 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Is that how you see it going over the next --
2462 MR. OLSTROM: Yes, 60:40.
2463 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: My understanding is that in the U.S. the evolution of smooth jazz, which is much more active and stronger, has been more two-thirds/one-third -- well, I guess that is pretty close, just a few per cent off.
2464 I was going through the transcript of Vancouver -- and you can let me know if you think this is a mean question, Mr. Cowie.
2465 One of the other people said this -- it is not actually a mean question. I do want to relate it to this market to get a sense of whether you think this format would work here.
2466 What one of the people said -- and this was Mr. Tyson with Craig, but I will read this anyhow.
2467 He says:
"This format is particularly well-suited to the west coast feel and lifestyle. In the U.S., for instance, smooth jazz stations in the Pacific region enjoy a significantly higher market share than do smooth jazz stations in other regions. We know that our format works in Vancouver because it is here, at least in part, now." (As read)
2468 I wonder if you could tell us your thoughts about how it would work in this region.
2469 MR. COWIE: I would like to do that in two parts.
2470 I'm going to have Debra refer to her research with that specific question.
2471 With respect to that conversation in Vancouver, that came from statistical information that was gathered from smooth jazz stations in the United States. The tie obviously was to Vancouver, which is a west coast city, and the fact that they were receiving smooth jazz from Seattle or Spokane or somewhere in the west coast.
2472 We were, quite frankly, pleasantly surprised with the research with respect to the cross-community interest in smooth jazz in Ottawa. It was higher and better than we thought it would be.
2473 I will ask Debra to refer to that.
2474 MS McLAUGHLIN: The profile information that Mr. Tyson was referring to was based on a study done in the U.S. which combined all of the stations offering smooth jazz. What it did was, it looked at the core audiences to these stations and then broke it out by typical demographics, age, gender, ethnicity, household income.
2475 When we line up the distribution of the market itself, Ottawa/Hull, against the skews in the profile, we find that the same skews exist in the market. For example, the core of the population in Ottawa/Hull is in the 35 to 54. That is where the core audience is for this demographic.
2476 It appeals across a range of ethnic and cultural groups which exist in this market.
2477 The household incomes of the listeners to smooth jazz tend to be higher. Ottawa has one of the highest in the country per household incomes.
2478 The education levels match.
2479 The gender balances match.
2480 So when you start taking it apart you say it may not be here, but the possibility for it succeeding clearly is, if we take all of the combined stations in the U.S.
2481 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Let me keep on, then, with the question of listener demand and go to the Perspectives Study.
2482 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: If I can go to page 29, the question was: How likely are you to listen to The Breeze?
2483 17 per cent "definitely" listen to it; 43 per cent "probably" listen to it.
2484 You do, in the page, talk about how you would discount that. With the "definitely" group you would discount it by 50 per cent and the "probably" by 85 per cent. But you still end up with a 15 per cent reach.
2485 That is not a market share of 15 per cent, is it?
2486 MS McLAUGHLIN: No, it's not. That is the reach.
2487 The market share for year one is 3.2.
2488 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Right. Do you see 15 per cent as being -- that wouldn't be your first year reach, would it?
2489 MS McLAUGHLIN: That is the reach that we believe it can achieve based on this type of measure, and I want to qualify that.
2490 Because Smooth Jazz/NAC does not exist in this market, when you put a questionnaire into the field you are relying on consumer and respondent understanding of what you are meaning and your very best efforts to test this will never do as well as actually playing and a listener having an option.
2491 So when these types of studies are done, what we do is we take data that is as best and as close as we can get and estimate a mature reach. So that is the mature reach.
2492 Do I intuitively think it will do better? Yes, I do. Exactly how much better --
2493 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Better than 15 per cent?
2494 MS McLAUGHLIN: Yes. At it's maturity, not in year one.
2495 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay.
2496 MS McLAUGHLIN: But, you know, if you asked me personally if I was a smooth jazz listener, I would say no. But I like the music that I heard today.
2497 So that is a personal reference, but I think you would find that to be a common experience.
2498 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. Can I just read out a quote for you, and this is from page 30, at the top of page 30:
"The phenomenal growth in tuning to jazz stations in the U.S. is a reaction to both the freshness of the sound, the increased availability of the format on conventional airwaves and an aging population. The audiences to jazz tend to be slightly older, more financially and socially established than audiences to many other formats." (As read)
2499 This is primarily talking about jazz. Is it your sense that the same would go for smooth jazz, Smooth Jazz/NAC?
2500 MS McLAUGHLIN: Smooth jazz will bring the demographic of that listenership down slightly.
2501 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay.
2502 MS McLAUGHLIN: So that comment is about jazz, the traditional jazz.
2503 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay.
2504 One thing that strikes me as I go through this, is that if it is so attractive, why haven't we seen others -- another player flip to this format or this genre, given that there have been some changes in the market over the last couple of years?
2505 MR. COWIE: That, quite frankly, is something that we fear. I believe that it will happen.
2506 I guess the issue there is that the timing for that probably isn't right. There have been a lot of changes of formats with consolidation, and so on, and I think in a clearer, smoother body of water this might already have happened, because it is a new, fresh radio sound. It is easy listening, but it has a jazz base and it is very unique.
2507 I wouldn't be at all surprised to find someone outside of the specialty category to find it when it is strategically right to do and go to it. It is going to be a successful format.
2508 It is not only in North America, it is successful in Europe. It is going to be a successful format and it will find its way into the Canadian system one way or the other.
2509 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Do you want to add to that?
2510 MS McLAUGHLIN: I just wanted to add that from an advertiser's perspective, or from an advertising perspective, in this research you will see that the music that people listen to most, still prefer to listen to, is pop and contemporary.
2511 Smooth jazz is on the list, but it isn't as broad-based as those other formats. As long as radio operators can continue to find high revenues for that type of format, there wouldn't be the incentive to abandon it because it still is the most popular form of music.
2512 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I think it is either this study or your supplementary brief that talked about the current dissatisfaction in the market and the interest in your format. Do you know to what extent NAC/Smooth Jazz is on any other playlist in the Ottawa/Hull area?
2513 MS McLAUGHLIN: Yes, actually. What we do have is a summary of the jazz programs from the market. They aren't smooth jazz per se, they are concentrations of -- or various streams of jazz.
2514 CBC Radio One has a Jazz Beat Sunday night. It starts at 11 o'clock at night and goes to 1:00 a.m. in the morning. CBC Radio Two has a Jazz Beat. It starts on Sunday at 8:00 p.m. and goes to 10:00 p.m. CBC Radio Two also has After Hours, which is Monday to Friday, 10:00 to 12:00 at night. There are three jazz programs on CBC French. CKCU has -- and again I want to point out that these are midnight to 1:00 a.m., very interesting time selections. CKCU, Sunday has 9:00 to 10:30 a blues program -- Sunday night -- or Sunday afternoon 1:00 to 3:00. There are about six programs, six hours on CHUO. Again, when I look at these times, you know, they are 7:00 to 9:00 at night, one in the morning type hours.
2515 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Do you have an idea of how CD sales are going in this region for this type of music?
2516 MR. COWIE: We listened to some conversation about that yesterday, but we have not checked directly.
2517 You notice Diana Krall is going to do very well.
2518 Quite frankly, we don't believe that there is yet a large enough base of Canadian artists performing smooth jazz and that is where our focus has to be, to grow them over this licence. That will drive CD sales.
2519 These incentives that we have put -- and others have put together to drive CD sales, and all of that is part of the exposure circle.
2520 But smooth jazz will take a growing period. It will evolve over a period of years. When that happens, I think all of those connectives will come together.
2521 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Is there a bit of a risk here or a sort of wing and a prayer that you sense the areas for this type of format but there is a bit of a risk in maybe two or three years down the road it just didn't work?
2522 MR. COWIE: We have struggled with that question since well before Vancouver, because I believe, and my colleagues believe, that that foray into traditional jazz will not succeed commercially and in fact has failed in the past.
2523 So this format has to have an inclusive base to it that includes other forms of music, pop being part of that and AC and new AC and the rest of it.
2524 That combination we think can bring the jazz base up, smooth it out and turn into a format that people are going to listen to in offices in Ottawa and they are going to listen to in their cars and so on. It will be an easy listening format on a jazz base and it will be quite different.
2525 Is there a risk? Of course there is. It would be a lot easier to have a hot AC format and go with that and so on. We think there is a real difference in this format and that its acceptability is based on doing it right and making sure that it has all of the pieces to it.
2526 If it gets skewed one way or the other -- I was thinking about this this morning, if it gets skewed too far to the pop side, it isn't going to succeed because it's more than 50 per cent instrumental. It just isn't going to work. If it gets skewed to the other side, which is traditional jazz, I have great fears it won't work.
2527 There's a fine line here. It's an evolution. We think we have it, hope we have it, but we believe strongly that if all of the elements work, it can succeed. It's succeeding elsewhere.
2528 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Yes. In terms of the instrumental to vocal ratio, is it different between the smooth jazz and the NAC part? Will there be more instrumental in smooth jazz?
2529 MR. OLSTROM: NAC/Smooth Jazz, it's a combination of NAC -- it would be more vocal, yes, but if you take a look at an NAC/Smooth Jazz chart, for example, in R&R, there's probably only about 15 per cent of that chart that is actually vocal.
2530 MR. HASIUK: If I could add to that.
2531 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Go ahead.
2532 MR. HASIUK: The way that we see this is out of the Category 2 which would be the NAC component. We would more than likely have 90 per cent vocals from there. A small portion of that would be instrumental. There might be a couple of selections that would qualify as easy listening perhaps or acoustic music.
2533 As far as the Category 3 component, that would be primarily instrumental, whatever the difference would be to balance off so that overall we would see 60 per cent instrumental primarily from Category 3 and 40 per cent vocal coming primarily from Category 2.
2534 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. In your search on a listener demand, was there a difference between the population on the Ottawa side versus the Hull side? Did you notice any difference in the demand for the service?
2535 MS McLAUGHLIN: We treated the market as a whole. What we did was typically when you are surveying this market, a research firm will say what are your splits, do you have criterias for francophones versus anglophones for the Hull versus Ottawa side.
2536 We didn't. We took the entire market. We offered the questionnaire in English or French. What we found was because we didn't ask for a stratified sample, we didn't bother breaking it out. We treated the market as one.
2537 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So your questionnaires were in English and French.
2538 MS McLAUGHLIN: Yes.
2539 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And you didn't tabulate the results separately.
2540 MS McLAUGHLIN: No, because as I said, we didn't stratify it by sample and you need to do that to break it out to make statements.
2541 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: How do you sense that this service which is where the spoken word will be English, do you have any sense of how it will go down in a francophone market? Do you anticipate a take-up among francophones?
2542 MS McLAUGHLIN: Yes, we do. That is because in the sense that we -- although we didn't stratify the sample, we did ask people and we did have a sense from the field work who chose to complete the survey using the francophone version the anglophone.
2543 What we ended up with was a demographic profile of the audience and 26 per cent of the people who said they would listen to this station frequently, definitely, were francophones.
2544 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. So it's the music that is the -- is it the music that is the attracting point or are we talking about francophones who are conversant in English? Do you know that?
2545 MS McLAUGHLIN: I believe it's the music, but I would have to say I believe that to be so out of the context of this survey from other work that I have done. It is the music. It's not anticipated that this service would become the primary source of news or information for a francophone listener.
2546 What is anticipated is that it does offer -- some of the programming I read to you was from CBC French and some of the best times are on the CBC French stations in terms of positioning this music, so we have to believe that there is an audience for this type of music.
2547 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So the CBC French has better times than CBC English in terms of smooth jazz.
2548 MS McLAUGHLIN: Yes. They are Monday to Friday six to seven versus Sunday at 11:00 p.m. to 1:00 a.m. I have got to think that there is a different programming strategy in choosing those times.
2549 You know, we know that there are listeners in the francophone market. We know that this type of music translates well, if I could use that word, simply because of the high instrumental, plus the rhythms.
2550 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. Can we move to market potential and business plan. On pages 8 and 9 you have talked about the cultural and linguistic diversity of the market. Do you have any conclusions about how the service will fare among the ethnic minority population?
2551 MS McLAUGHLIN: Again, in the same context that we identified the per cent of the population who were francophones, we also were able to identify people with other ethnic origins than either of the two official languages would suggest. We find that there is -- actually I believe it's back in the consumer demand. I will have to go back there.
2552 We find that people who state they have German ethnicity, Chinese ethnicity or aboriginal, Arabic, West Indian, African-Canadians, Portuguese, these people all actually index -- not all of them, but some of those groups, particularly French, Chinese, German and aboriginal, index higher than the population would suggest they should, so that in terms of indexing -- I'm losing my train of thought, I'm sorry.
2553 If you take a random sample and it appeals to the market generally, then what you will find in that random sample is that on several characteristics, ethnicity being one, if it is a full appeal service that they will line up to match the population. In fact, what we see is there are certain groups, cultural groups, that have higher propensities to listen to this than their distribution would suggest.
2554 My conclusion after much rambling is that it does appeal to a broad cultural spectrum.
2555 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. On page 18 you talked about the markets, the Ottawa and Hull markets. I guess this is more from an advertising perspective. I just want to clarify. You see the two markets as one, the English and French language markets.
2556 MS McLAUGHLIN: In terms of how we measure for consumer demand, we treat it as one. If you are referring to two markets in one on page 18, that refers to how they are measured and therefore viewed by advertisers in terms of setting budgets.
2557 BBM produces two books. All stations measured in the market are measured against two universes, an anglophone and a francophone universe. In terms of negotiation, planning, using reach figures, there are two universes that advertisers look at and they set aside two budgets.
2558 The cost per point in the francophone market is different than the cost per point in the anglophone market.
2559 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: In terms of dealing with the different cultural groups, do you see that affecting your choice of music? Would you see, for example, more Latin rhythms or other types of music that would fit into the format?
2560 MR. COWIE: We have had many long discussions on that question. I guess its simplest explanation is whatever music fits the format we will play. That means it's inclusive. If it's Céline Dion and Andre Boticelli and a duet that fits the format, we will play it, whatever language it is in.
2561 Also, in specialty programming there are opportunities for, particularly in some of the Latin music and so on, that are part of that specialty schedule, but in our regular rotations, the programming rule will be whatever fits, we will play it. If it happens to be in the French language and has the same beat and laid back sound to it, we will play it.
2562 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Do you see going out and looking for a variety of music from difficult cultural genres, not genres but different cultural origins as being a selling point to expand your market? Does the format allow for that?
2563 MR. COWIE: We are not sure what the format will drive in that sense, but as long as it's made clear to the artistic community that we are inclusive in our thinking, that in fact might happen. We will have to see, but we certainly will not discourage those who sing in other than the English language from coming to our station.
2564 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. In the section of this report at page 17, starting at page 17, interviews with advertisers, one of the things that struck me as I read through that was it is pretty difficult for a new player to enter the market, especially when you are dealing with a new format and you are stand-alone, you would be stand-alone.
2565 How would you go about breaking into the market as a stand-alone with a new format?
2566 MS McLAUGHLIN: Actually, I guess that is one of the interesting things about writing a report, that people read it differently.
2567 I thought one of the things that came through here is the frustration that I have expressed to the Commission before, as several other people have, and that is the fact that the concentration in ownership, when you are buying advertising, is a big problem because the way it is sold -- the way radio is planned and bought, first of all, is because it is an excellent targeting medium. The way it is sold undermines this clear advantage.
2568 So you will end up buying four stations in a forced package with a range of demographics that span 12 to 54. If you are an advertiser and you have planned it against mid-size cars, you can effectively wipe out half of your efficiencies with any of these packages.
2569 This station because of the psychographics -- and it has some very compelling psychographics; they tend to be less brand loyal; they tend to be users of high end products; they have more interest in electronics.
2570 Those kinds of pieces of information that is clear about this type of format, from several years of research in the U.S. and from this research, will be very attractive to a certain group of advertisers.
2571 The fact that you can buy the station on its own will be wonderful without having to go back and reconfigure your buy because now you are selling this car to teenagers. You can actually put weight on the station, put an ad in the newspaper and have an effective campaign.
2572 So I don't see it as a problem as being a single station coming into this market. In fact, I would anticipate that the people selling this would not have much of a problem at all.
2573 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: You are confident that there is pent up advertising waiting to advertise to your demographic. Is that what you are saying?
2574 MS McLAUGHLIN: I am convinced that there is a significant group of advertisers who are looking to reach this demographic. Pent up suggests that they are trying to get on to radio and cannot. They have totally ignored radio because it is not effective. It is not just the consolidation of ownership. There isn't this type of format.
2575 If the CBC could be sold -- and when I was selling radio, people would say to me: If you were selling the CBC, I would buy you because that is my demographic.
2576 This will be the station that most closely mirrors, not duplicates but mirrors some of the very interesting cycographics and demographics of the CBC.
2577 I am convinced that given the nature of the medium and its role in an advertising campaign, there is a significant number of advertisers who will find it attractive.
2578 MR. COWIE: Mr. Cardozo, part of that is that the result of those dynamics is that these stations historically will take a smaller share but produce higher revenues from those shares because of the cycographic studies that have been done and who is interested in coming to them.
2579 So we are looking forward to that being true.
2580 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: You estimate that 30 per cent of your ad revenues will come from existing stations. I have a couple of questions on that.
2581 Do you see any one or two stations in particular?
2582 Secondly, where will the other 70 per cent come from?
2583 MS McLAUGHLIN: I have that answer in the profile section.
2584 What we did was we asked all respondents what station they listened to last week and what station they listened to most. We didn't find any particular variation. Maybe the order changed but the top ten were the top ten.
2585 Then we did a cross tab against the people who said they would listen to The Breeze definitely to find out what stations in all likelihood would be affected.
2586 We found that 17 per cent of our audience currently listens to CBC Radio One, so commercially what will draw audience, that won't affect anyone.
2587 Then spread over several stations we have Magic, CBC Radio Two, KOOL-FM, CIMF-FM, CKBY. All of these, in terms of our audience, represent less than 10 per cent.
2588 Then it goes on. The mentions that we have are 20 more. So it is spread over Internet, CBO-FM, CFGO, CHEZ-FM, and the list goes on. It is on page 31.
2589 What this suggests to me is that several of the people who will be listening to the station are not concentrated on any stations that currently exist in the market, if we set aside the CBC stations.
2590 So in terms of revenue, this means that no single station will be impacted.
2591 We believe that no new station, with perhaps the exception of an ethnic station or an aboriginal station coming into this market, will increase listenership. It is over 94 per cent. People who are not listening to radio now probably are not likely to listen to radio, with the exception of those two groups.
2592 What we do think we are going to do is take some of these listeners from other stations, split their tuning, and they are going to spend some time with us. We will probably end up increasing their hours tuned.
2593 What this does is it shifts share.
2594 So 30 per cent of our revenues coming from these stations will probably be spread over ten stations.
2595 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And the other 70 per cent?
2596 MS McLAUGHLIN: In a reply to deficiency, we had said that 15 per cent would come from increasing the budgets of existing radio advertisers; 30 per cent would come from new advertisers; and 25 per cent would come from other media.
2597 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: You think that there is that kind of room for companies to expand their advertising budgets by --
2598 MS McLAUGHLIN: The 15 per cent?
2599 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: The 15 you said. I thought you said 50.
2600 MS McLAUGHLIN: No, 15 per cent.
2601 The 30 per cent in new advertisers, in that category what we are referring to are high end product users, retailers that typically do not advertise because they either intuitively or in fact do know that the audience they are trying to reach is very difficult, particularly in a radio environment, where a lot of the formats converge to the popular music centre.
2602 So it becomes problematic to either do it efficiently or in fact to do it at all, to use radio to reach them.
2603 We think that in some of the interviews I conducted people actually said I don't advertise really, but this would be of interest to me.
2604 In terms of other media we know that there are high end advertisers who use newspaper only. They put it beside the financial news or in the top headline section. Radio will offer an opportunity and in particular The Breeze will offer the opportunity to augment that buy.
2605 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Of the currently existing commercial stations in the market, are there any one or two that would be most affected or threatened by your success?
2606 MS McLAUGHLIN: No. It is spread over ten stations.
2607 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So you would be a really friendly group in town. Everybody would like you.
2608 MS McLAUGHLIN: Yes.
2609 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Let me ask you about the business case issue, and this is the one you referred to, both Mr. Hill and Mr. Cowie, in your opening, and that is the issue that this is a critical hearing for Harvard. You talked about the expanding smaller players in the face of increasing consolidation.
2610 It is really an interesting question that we at the Commission have to think about. If there is consolidation, there are some very large companies and there are smaller companies like Harvard, CHIN, Newcap and others, and there are slightly bigger, like Craig and CHUM and stuff.
2611 I am wondering what your thoughts are on the role of the Commission on this question.
2612 Should we be taking an affirmative role, a proactive approach? Or is it the role of the Commission to simply respond to applications as they come in?
2613 MR. COWIE: I will speak to it first, and Paul may wish to address that question as well.
2614 I think, in general terms, if the application of a smaller operator from outside the market is competitive -- and that is the first issue. You are not going to give a licence to somebody just because they are from another market or a small market. They must first be competitive.
2615 Secondly, if they can meet the other criteria of business plans, programming, experience, financial capability, and so on, I think there is a very real opportunity for the Commission to look at that other issue, which is the expansion of new voices and new ownership in the radio business.
2616 The alternative to that is that if you can't grow, sooner or later you are going to go.
2617 Those who have dedicated a lot of time and effort to community service in radio in some very difficult markets are faced with a very serious dilemma. For us to expand, we must achieve a major market licence, somewhere in the ranking of sooner or later, or we can't grow to the next step. And we are not sure we can always continue to look after the smaller market stations that we own and care for.
2618 So these hearings for major markets offer a really unique opportunity, because for us to try to buy a station in Toronto or Vancouver or Montreal, we can't do it. We don't have the money.
2619 Large public companies can. That is where it becomes uncompetitive in terms of licensing.
2620 So a new licence hearing is unique on the basis of all other things being equal. There is an opportunity to expansion of ownership and perspective.
2621 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: You have how many stations currently?
2622 MR. COWIE: We have two stations.
2623 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: In?
2624 MR. COWIE: In Regina.
2625 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So I guess Regina and Ottawa are in the same range. Ottawa is a bit bigger, especially when you look at Ottawa/Hull.
2626 MR. COWIE: Ottawa is quite a lot larger than Regina.
2627 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Is there a possible business case for you in markets the size of Regina, a bit bigger a bit smaller? If you expanded in that size of market as opposed to the big markets like you just mentioned, could you survive and grow that way?
2628 MR. COWIE: I suppose. There has been a lot of consolidation there too in the last few years, and unfortunately during a period of time when we were unable to participate.
2629 But I really think that particularly in attempts to drive new formats like this and provide new services and to ply our trade, which is highly local in its basis and focus, it just makes sense for us to be in a position where we can look forward to a long term, a long life in the radio business.
2630 If you are going to play in the small markets forever, the chances are that you will never have that opportunity. That is why we applied in Calgary, we applied in Vancouver and we are applying here. It is time for us to grow. This offers an opportunity, if we can reach the other plateaus that are required to do that.
2631 I'm going to just ask Paul to speak to that.
2632 MR. HILL: Just in addition to the two stations that we own, we manage the two Craig stations at this moment in Regina as well. We find that in our community -- and I wish it was different -- but we don't have the same kind of growth dynamics that exist in communities such as Ottawa. I can remember a day when Regina was about the same size as Ottawa.
2633 So we are running on a treadmill and we keep speeding the treadmill up and running harder, but we don't move. We are not moving anywhere.
2634 So we have gone through the ups and downs of the economic cycles.
2635 Saskatchewan has been a little bit tougher than some of the other areas of the country and we have survived in those environments.
2636 We have a very strong competitive management team. I think that Bruce Cowie's background speaks for itself. Bruce started our association when he was in television and we acquired the CTV television station back in the mid-70s.
2637 So we have had some -- we have reflected on this and realize that we did want to maintain a long-term interest in the broadcasting industry. That is the reason we retained these radio stations in the first place, that is the reason we entered into the local management agreement with the Craigs.
2638 It became evident to us as the world was changing around us, with larger players consolidating and developing cost efficiencies across the country, also stealing, maybe, some of our talented people, that we needed to provide a better environment for our talented people and we needed a stronger economic base that would come with being able to operate stations in markets that have better growth characteristics than ours.
2639 Now, I just came from Italy last week -- Bruce and I were both there. They had an election a week ago. The current Prime Minister, who was just elected, owns all three private television stations in the country and now that he is the Prime Minister he also controls all the government stations. There was some commentary in the press, of which a lot he controlled as well in terms of the printed press, that he may have a conflict of interest.
--- Laughter / Rires
2640 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Who was it who dared to say that?
2641 MR. HILL: But he assured the population that he would deal with those conflicts.
2642 Well, I'm not indicating that we have a parallel situation here, but if you ultimately end up with a very few players in the industry, I don't think that is good for the broadcasting industry in Canada.
2643 I think there needs to be room for a diversity of players, smaller players. I'm not against larger players, I think we need that as well, but there needs to be a diversity and I think the CRTC should be sensitive to the accommodation of that diversity of ownership and voices and ways of looking at things.
2644 There is no question that a person -- a large corporation that dominates an industry has a different perspective and brings a different perspective to the industry than a smaller player who is maybe a little bit more fleet of foot and has a different outlook on life and would bring his perspective to the broadcasting system.
2645 So I think your question is an important one and I do think the Commission should weigh some of those issues in the overall scheme of things.
2646 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: In the world of Davids and Goliaths to some you look like a Goliath. There are still Davids who are trying to break into the market with one station. Do you have any thoughts about that?
2647 Because there are some people who say: Just give up on the standalones. They can't survive in a big market. They are going to get bought up anyhow.
2648 MR. COWIE: I know that that is one of the things that you have to weigh too, is who is in the business for a long time and who is the business for a good time.
2649 We are committed to radio, have been since the early '80s and want to contribute to it. I mean, this is a great opportunity for us, you know, to be part of building a new level of Canadian content. That was my life in television for many years.
2650 We want to -- you can't not do that from a small prairie market. You can't.
2651 So if you want to bring more people to the table who understand the need to contribute and invest in Canadian talent and all of those things to drive Canadian radio, then you may have to find some new folks because the good ones are all taken. They are all in the business and have five or six or seven or eight stations, depending on the market, and so on.
2652 But I go back to the first point: We have to be competitive. We think we are. We have to want to contribute and be in the radio business for a long time. It is difficult to do from the centre of the universe in Saskatchewan. We need to grow.
2653 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you very much. That is very helpful.
2654 I'm wondering, Madam Chair, if this would be a good time to take a break.
2655 You have given us a lot of food for thought, maybe we need some food for our bodies too now.
2656 THE CHAIRPERSON: That is fine.
2657 We will take a break until 2:00.
2658 Alors, nous reprendrons à deux heures, après le déjeuner.
--- Upon recessing at 1234 / Suspension à 1234
--- Upon resuming at 1400 / Reprise à 1400
2659 THE CHAIRPERSON: Welcome back to our hearing.
2660 Alors rebienvenue à notre audience.
2661 Commissioner Cardozo, please.
2662 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you, Madam Chair, and welcome back. I hope you had a fine lunch at one of Hull's well-established eating places. There are many around here and I'm sure you found the best. Did you?
2663 MR. HILL: We found the greasy spoon. It was great.
2664 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Well, if you want to serve this area, you have got to know the greasy spoons too. A lot of the real people hang out there.
2665 What we will do is I have three other areas I would like to cover which are Canadian talent development, staffing and some technical and frequency issues.
2666 On Canadian talent development, if we go to the supplementary brief, page 8, and I will just go through a few things there. The $25,000 annually de facto for adult contemporary smooth jazz, you noted today -- I don't think it was in here but you noted today it would be for artists in the Ottawa/Hull area. Is that correct?
2667 MR. DONNELLY: Yes. We contacted Heather Ostertag, the Executive Director of FACTOR, and asked her if we could earmark the funds for applicants from the Ottawa region and she assured us that they had been asked to do that on many occasions by other applicants and it's possible to do so.
2668 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: That was my next question. Thank you for answering it in advance, although I must tell you we get extra points among ourselves when we pose questions that were not anticipated. So when you answer a question before I ask it, I don't look good with my colleagues, so be careful next time.
2669 A question on blues in the schools. Do you know how this is organized, who organizes this?
2670 MR. DONNELLY: The producer of the blues festival is a fellow named Mark Monaghan. He is a local Ottawa businessman. They have got an association of all the various festivals in Ottawa. Mark I believe right now is the President or else the Past-President of this association.
2671 This is a program that he and his staff have taken their own initiative to do. They use the resources of the festival team. Through one of the members of their team they just actually create live performances. They try and take performers that come to play at the blues festival or come to town to play various blues venues. They actually put them in schools to do performances in schools.
2672 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: You are not involved in making the arrangements with the school board over the particular school.
2673 MR. DONNELLY: No. This is an initiative that they have in place already.
2674 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay.
2675 MR. DONNELLY: And that they introduced to us when I contacted them to speak bout our application and to find out what they may need, how we could help. They proposed their blues in schools initiative and provided me with some information on that. I took it back to our group and everybody said "Great".
2676 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And what does your money go for? I mean is it paid to the artists?
2677 MR. DONNELLY: You know, I'm sure that's his only expense in administering it. One of the few expenses in administering a program like that would be to hire an artist, to have them come and perform in schools.
2678 They would look to various sponsors to raise the money in order to hire the artists and produce the promotional materials. There's some administration costs, but I would say the lion's share of the cost in that program is just paying the workshop fees to the performers.
2679 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. On page 10 you talked about adult contemporary at the NAC or what I call NAC at the NAC. You should hire me for some of these.
2680 MR. DONNELLY: Yes.
2681 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Do you have an agreement with the other NAC on this?
2682 MR. DONNELLY: Yes. When I came in January, Michel Dossier, who is the Executive Director of this new area in the NAC which is called the Fourth Stage, we sat down and worked with them. We introduced the concept of producing a series that took us to see the theatre.
2683 We talked about not just doing a concert series and having us be the sponsor of it, but seeing if we could take it one step further and create workshops for the music students in the Ottawa region so you would have -- just because the layout of this theatre is so nice, in the daytime you could bring students in and actually have a workshop in this environment and then in the evening light the candles on the tables and turn it into a performance venue.
2684 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. And again the money here goes for the artists.
2685 MR. DONNELLY: Well, in this case the NAC would be the administrator of the series, so we would strike an agreement with them that said we will put this money in, we would like to see it go to six or eight concerts.
2686 We want to ensure when they select who the performers are that they will work with us so that we make sure that we select performers who suit the station as well as can sell some tickets. We want to make sure that the performers are paid scale fees for their performances or beyond that.
2687 I think if you take, you know, $40,000 and divide it over five concerts, it's $5,000 per concert. That pays reasonable fees to the performers.
2688 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: What I'm getting at partially is -- do you have a sense of how much of this money goes for administration, either to the Arts Centre or anybody else, and how much goes to the artist?
2689 MR. DONNELLY: Well, I guess in realistic terms, if I was promoting the series, I would look at building the budgets for doing a specific event. If we were breaking this one down to approximately $5,000 per event, that would generally -- you know, a fair scale fee that would pay scale to the back-up musicians and double for the leader and some rehearsal time. It would probably come in around $2,500, leaving some more funding to pay for the production, the rent of the sound system and some marketing and that kind of thing.
2690 I think to directly answer your question, about half of it would be paid in artist fees and the other half would go to production costs and marketing and administration.
2691 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. And then that second half would cover sound systems and that.
2692 MR. DONNELLY: Technicians, marketing, that type of thing.
2693 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: In any of these situations with your Canadian talent development proposals, should any of them cease operation or should you want to discontinue funding because it's not working out or whatever, what plans do you have for what would happen to that money?
2694 MR. COWIE: Well, first of all, it would stay in the system. We are committed to that level of spending in this licence. I'm sure there are many, many other opportunities in support of smooth jazz artists that we would find.
2695 If the question is do we have a mechanism in place, the first stop there would be the management of the station in Ottawa. It's our intention that all of the staff there would be very proactive in terms of ambassadorial work for the station in the community.
2696 The feedback should be very strong in terms of where needs do occur. We would recommit it somewhere else in support of the same principles.
2697 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I have a general question about benefits packages. Any of you can comment, but I would particularly like to hear from you, Mr. Cowie, given your experience in this area.
2698 There have been a lot of benefits packages in various kinds of applications recently. One of the issues that troubles me a little bit is do the recipients of benefits packages either get hauled or in or they voluntarily come to hearings in favour of an applicant.
2699 Can there be a quid pro quo that happens in a benefits package where the recipient may feel an obligation to come to a hearing to speak in favour of an applicant and how does one -- is that a concern that we should be watching? Are there ways of dealing with that?
2700 MR. COWIE: I think in most cases, if not all, that people who come here come voluntarily. There are benefits. It is cyclical in the sense that you want to deploy the benefits as best you can to aid the success of the business and, therefore, the business ought to be making those expenditures as time goes on.
2701 It's a partnership I think. One of the things you run into from time to time unfortunately is someone who you have agreed to support shows up in somebody else's group at the hearing. I think you have got to understand that it's a finite community and the players are who you see. I don't blame them to try to find support wherever they can.
2702 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I guess if an intervenor comes and we have received this kind of money from this applicant and they are really sincere and they do a good job, you know, give them a licence or renew their licence, whatever, that's up front and straight forward, but if that isn't stated then you sometimes are left wondering if that has played any role.
2703 I wonder whether the FACTOR model works well whereby the broadcaster puts the money into this fund and is not involved directly in who gets that money. They may be on the Board but they are not able to say to the recipient "We gave you this money" if it came through FACTOR.
2704 MR. COWIE: We have done it both ways, Commissioner Cardozo, in our application in British Columbia. We had a very high component for FACTOR.
2705 In this case with John on the ground in Ottawa/Hull and talking to all of those who will benefit from this station, we hope -- in the long term it seemed like the requests that were made of us were reasonable and fit the focus that we wanted in this case.
2706 In fact, I don't have anybody appearing for us on that basis or maybe one or two, but a very small number. We don't try to make that kind of tie in the way we do things.
2707 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I'm not singling out your application in any way.
2708 MR. COWIE: Of course not.
2709 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I just want your views on this. So in terms of how it works, do you go around offering benefits to people or is it a bit of people coming to you as well?
2710 MR. COWIE: Well, in this case because we are not in the market yet, hopefully, we came here, went out and found out where the players are, who they are, and asked them what it was we could do for them in support in the long run of the format which would be good for both of us.
2711 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay.
2712 MR. COWIE: So we initiated the conversations in all of these cases.
2713 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. Let me move to staffing. First on the matter of employment equity. In your March 5 letter, which is in response to a deficiency letter regarding employment equity, you note that this entity, which was the new entity which was to be created, would have less than a hundred employees and, therefore, not fall under the jurisdiction of the Employment Equity Act which means you would be reporting to the Commission in terms of your employment equity initiatives.
2714 I'm just wondering. It's now a Harvard application. Do you have more than a hundred employees?
2715 MR. COWIE: No, we will not.
2716 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So you would be then talking to us about your employment equity plan.
2717 MR. COWIE: Well, we would -- our numbers fall quite a bit short of the required 100. What we have agreed to do is we thought the proposal that was included in the original application of diversity committees, even though we are below the number it makes good sense to us, so we propose to go forward with that as set out in sections 5, 8 and 9 of our original supplementary brief.
2718 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Where would that be in the supplementary brief?
2719 MR. COWIE: That is on page -- I'm sorry, it was a separate section. I don't have a page number on it, as it turns out.
2720 I'm sorry, it is a deficiency response.
2721 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Which date was that? That is not the March 5th letter, is it?
2722 MR. COWIE: It is right in the back here.
2723 It would be attached to March 5th.
2724 MR. COWIE: I'm sorry, I stand corrected. It appears after the actual application in the book, but it is a response to sections 5, 8 and 9 dealing with employment equity.
2725 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Do you want to summarize that?
2726 MR. COWIE: What it says is that we would set up diversity committees with the responsibility of setting reasonable and achievable targets for future hirings. The diversity committee will implement an accountability strategy to ensure that targets are being met at each of our undertakings, having regard to the particular circumstances of the individual markets served.
2727 We would plan to establish such a diversity committee at the Ottawa station. Such a committee would undertake initiatives such as the forging of partnerships with post-secondary institutions, develop practicums and job shadow programs targeted to members of the designated groups, instituting policies regarding job flexibility and special work programs to accommodate the needs of members of the designated groups, and implementing processes to ensure that organizations representing members from the designated groups are notified on an ongoing basis about job opportunities at the station.
2728 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: At this point you have not hired anybody, I suppose.
2729 MR. COWIE: No.
2730 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Do you have any numerical targets in terms of employment equity?
2731 MR. COWIE: What we propose to do is hire against the demographic breakdown of the community. We have those numbers.
2732 As we said in the last conversation we had based on this question, wherever possible -- and we have particular difficulty here because of the large francophone population and an English station. We want to deal with that and find ways of making sure we have francophone employees that can work for us.
2733 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: That was going to be my next question actually.
2734 MR. COWIE: It goes to the heart of just looking at the ethnicity of the marketplace.
2735 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Right.
2736 MR. COWIE: We will try very hard to make sure that our staff reflects the city we live in and its population.
2737 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: If you don't mind checking with our staff after today to see if our own employment equity for employers under 100 requires a bit more information, maybe I could ask you to file that before the end of the hearing next week if there is any more detail.
2738 MR. COWIE: Sure.
2739 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: On the matter of French-speaking staff, do you have plans to have French-speaking, francophone staff?
2740 MR. OLSTROM: Yes, we do, in particular in the area of news because we will have to cover the entire market.
2741 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: This speaks to the issue of you being an Ottawa station or an Ottawa/Hull station. I take it you see yourselves as being an Ottawa/Hull station.
2742 MR. COWIE: That is correct.
2743 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: On technical and frequency issues, you have heard the questions before with regards to the frequency matter. We are getting towards summarizing, but perhaps you could tell us again, given the people you are competing with, the applications you are competing with, what the compelling reasons are to grant you the requested frequency.
2744 Does your plan constitute the best use of 89.9?
2745 MR. COWIE: The first answer is we believe we have the best use of the frequency in terms of the NAC Smooth/Jazz format and the provision to the local focused community service that we carry with us.
2746 In speaking to Doug Allen of D.M. Allen and Associates, who did the engineering studies for us in the market, it was their view that the choice of frequency was the right one and the best one available for us for the service that we contemplate.
2747 Our business plan, I think, drives us to the same conclusion; that this is a good strong frequency, and it will help us introduce a mature, a new radio station in this market that will be a benefit to the marketplace, we believe, and to the broadcasting system and fits this frequency very well.
2748 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: In looking the map, you are looking at a high power, which in the smaller footprint you have you are covering a number of areas on the Ottawa side: North Gower, Almonte, Richmond, Orleans, Fitzroy Harbour; and then on the Quebec side, St. Pierre de Wakefield, Buckingham.
2749 I should note that you are probably one of the few that almost goes to Hawkesbury, which is very important in this hearing. You realize that Madam Chair is originally from Hawkesbury, so you have a particular importance to prove to her that this is a good station, because accordingly she may or may not want her relatives to hear what you have to put out.
2750 This is one of the strongest. Is it your feeling that you are going to have a market in these outlying areas?
2751 MR. COWIE: As the new player on the block, we are going to want to amass as large an audience as we can. However, the core audience from a marketing point of view will be closer into the core of Ottawa/Hull.
2752 Debra, do you wish to speak to this?
2753 MS McLAUGHLIN: We do note that the trading zone for Ottawa extends, because the sense is that it is the large urban area for a lot of these markets, beyond the boundary of Ottawa/Hull proper. So we do expect that some retailers would find this particularly attractive in terms of drawing people in.
2754 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Have you looked at other frequencies? If you were not granted this frequency, have you looked at others that may be suitable?
2755 MR. COWIE: I spoke with Doug Allen yesterday, and he has not done that. What he did was go through a series of examinations and got to this one.
2756 He acknowledges that there are other frequencies available, with varying degrees of degradation, but has not done the engineering on those to suggest an alternative should we have to go there or choose to go there.
2757 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I suppose on the AM band -- you wouldn't want to go AM because of your format.
2758 MR. COWIE: That is a music format station, yes.
2759 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: That covers my questions. You will get a chance in a little while to summarize.
2760 I will hand it back to Madam Chair and my colleagues and legal counsel if they have further questions.
2761 Thank you very much.
2762 THE CHAIRPERSON: I can assure you, Mr. Cowie, that my forbearers are very jazzy people.
2763 MR. COWIE: That is good news.
2764 THE CHAIRPERSON: Counsel...?
2765 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.
2766 Good afternoon. I have just a few brief questions on your CTD. I am sure you have heard this kind of question before.
2767 When you cut a cheque to a festival -- Bluesfest, Jazz Festival -- what assurances do you have that the money goes where you intend it to go?
2768 MR. COWIE: I am going to ask John Donnelly to speak to that, because he carried on all of those conversations.
2769 His charge from us going in, as potential licence-holders here, was to make sure that that would be done. So I would be interested in the answer to the question as well. Thank you for it.
2770 MR. DONNELLY: I can actually speak to it from two points of view, in that I am actually the producer of a festival which is a Canadian Talent Development initiative in Vancouver, called New Music West. It just wrapped up last week, May 10th to 13th, with 250 groups performing.
2771 We had various broadcast support coming for our festival from Chorus and Standard and Telemedia. We had various radio stations that sponsor us.
2772 From the point of view of being a producer, what you are trying to do is raise the funding. And the funding comes in as line items. Then you have your expenditures going out to the various groups and talent and overhead. From the festival's point of view, it really comes in to an overall budget and goes out as overall expenses.
2773 From the point of view of the broadcaster, I believe it is fair to say -- and what we have said to the Ottawa Jazz Festival is that we would like to support your festival, but we would like to earmark these funds to go to ensuring that there are scale performance fees, AF of M scale fees paid to the local performers. So we would like to direct the funding to that. We would like you to show us that we are going to put $25,000 into sponsoring the festival, but you are going to create these local performance positions and direct our funding that way.
2774 I think all you can do from the broadcast point of view is say: Yes, we will support you. We will prop you up. This is where we would like to see the funding go. And then ensure that the local performers are paid those fees.
2775 MR. RHÉAUME: If you go to the festival organizers and say: "Okay, here is your cheque for $25,000. I want to know where the money goes."
2776 Is that going to work?
2777 MR. DONNELLY: I think so. I think the organizer at the end of the day can come back and say look at what we accomplished. In the big picture we delivered 250 bands. Of the 250 that we delivered, 150 came from this local region. And of this 150, here are the receipts that show how much we paid each of those performers.
2778 MR. RHÉAUME: So the same answer presumably would apply to the Bluesfest initiative for $12,500, where you actually say it is going to pay to set up a stage but for the purpose of funding that stage which is going to feature Canadian artists.
2779 MR. DONNELLY: That's right. We went to them and said: We know you are a blues festival. We are trying to launch an NAC Smooth/Jazz station. Could we find some way to work together? What we are trying to do is create exposure for this new genre and help build an audience. If we provide some funding to you, could you perhaps give us a second stage for one of the days where we can feature it and title it for the station, so that it is "The Breeze presents" the smooth jazz performers on this day and time.
2780 They felt that was a good idea; that it would add to their festival.
2781 MR. RHÉAUME: I don't want to belabour this, but when you cut a cheque for a substantial amount of money, are t here contracts signed in any fashion that allow you to say this is where the money goes?
2782 Is that how it works? Or am I naive here?
2783 MR. DONNELLY: There is always a letter of agreement that would precede the issuance of a cheque where the producer of the festival would sit down with the supporting party, with the radio station, and say: You come to an agreement of the amount of the sponsorship of the Canadian Talent Development fee. You also come to agreement on where the money is going to go and what the station would get back in terms of promotion and support for it.
2784 I think you have to find the common ground and agree to it so that both parties are satisfied. The cheque is written, and then it is up to the festival to fulfil its end, to make sure that not only are the bands paid but also you are taking care of your station partner in terms of giving them banner position and getting back to them as well.
2785 MR. COWIE: Just to add to the point, counsel, it would be our intention in dealing with these various venues where we have agreements in principle as to how we would operate together to require that kind of language in the agreements before the cheques are cut.
2786 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you. Just one more question on CTD and then we get to this music stuff.
2787 The Breeze fund, there is a discussion on an advisory board composed of local artists from the community.
2788 Is the advisory board paid in any fashion? Are there admin fees? Or is the $40,000 per year earmarked for artists only?
2789 MR. COWIE: One hundred per cent of it will go to artists. There will be no admin fees.
2790 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you.
2791 With respect to format, your application, as I recall, says 35 per cent of your musical selection is a Category 3. There was a discussion this morning about 40 per cent, possibly 50 per cent. You have given samples. There is a number of figures.
2792 What is your commitment to Category 3 by condition of licence?
2793 MR. OLSTROM: Minimum 35 per cent.
2794 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you.
2795 The blended issue, I'm not sure if I understand it.
2796 If I understand it -- correct me if I'm wrong, at any time.
2797 If I understand it, your blended 35 per cent would cover both Category 2 and Category 3 with a single commitment of 25 per cent Canadian content to Category 3.
2798 MR. OLSTROM: Correct.
2799 MR. RHÉAUME: There would be no specific commitment to Canadian content in Category 2.
2800 Is that fair?
2801 MR. OLSTROM: There is a minimum commitment to 25 per cent in Category 3.
2802 MR. RHÉAUME: Yes.
2803 MR. OLSTROM: Category 2 would make up the remainder. So if you took -- for example, if you took an average of 100 songs, 40 songs would come from Category 2, 60 songs coming from Category 3, 50 per cent or 20 of the songs are Canadian from Category 2, out of the 60 Category 3 songs, 25 per cent minimum are Canadian, equalling 15 songs which gives you your 35 songs or 35 per cent.
2804 MR. RHÉAUME: I understand. So you would have for Canadian content two commitments. It would be 25 per cent Category 3 and a 35 per cent overall?
2805 MR. OLSTROM: Yes.
2806 MR. RHÉAUME: Okay. Now, let me take an extreme scenario and you will understand why there could be a concern with that kind of approach.
2807 If you have the paper you handed out this morning, the music selection at the very end of the paper. You have a bunch of figures and at the bottom it says "Blended 35%". Do you have that?
2808 MR. OLSTROM: Yes.
2809 MR. RHÉAUME: The column on the left, "Category 2", "Category 3" and then "Total". Okay?
2810 MR. OLSTROM: Yes.
2811 MR. RHÉAUME: Let's start with Category 3. Your commitment -- you can write this in as you go along and then you are going to tell me, "Counsel, this is outrageous." But still, let's go through it.
2812 Start with Category 3, 35, where you have a 60. So 35 per cent would meet your condition of license. Okay?
2813 Now, next to it where you have a 25, which is also your commitment, write 100 per cent.
2814 Of course, on the right, still under Category 3 you have 35 songs. Right?
2815 At the bottom of that you will, of course, have 35 songs out of 100, which meets your blended. Right?
2816 Now, go up top to Category 2 with the same numbers we just discussed. You would have 65 per cent -- and here comes the outrageous part -- you could have zero and zero. So you will have met all of your commitments and you will have absolutely no obligation to Category 2 music in terms of Canadian content.
2817 MR. OLSTROM: Correct.
2818 MR. RHÉAUME: So I'm not saying you are going to do this, I'm not saying you might do this, but there is, you will agree, serious potential for abuse in Category 2.
2819 Do you have any thoughts on that?
2820 MR. HASIUK: I guess the math that you presented, the figures certainly work, but as far as the artists that are available the inventory just isn't there at this time.
2821 As such, I guess, as a hypothetical question, the answer is yes, but in reality it couldn't happen.
2822 MR. RHÉAUME: Well, okay. You don't have to go 100 per cent Category 3, then. Even if you just go -- not "just go", but if you go 80 per cent or 85 per cent, my point is that 65 per cent of your music would be in -- could be in Category 2 under your proposed format. That portion is absolutely unregulated. There is no control over this. You can do anything you want with 65 per cent of your entire playlist.
2823 I would like to share with you that this is a cause for concern on the part of Commission staff at least.
2824 MR. COWIE: Well, we compliment the Commission staff for having thought that through. We hadn't thought about it because our focus obviously hasn't been there. But we see your point.
2825 I suppose the only way to deal with that is setting levels within the specialty categories conditions of license, which I'm not sure you can do that or not.
2826 MR. RHÉAUME: Let me try another spin here.
2827 You were in Vancouver, as I recall. There is a regulation that calls for 35 per cent Category 2. You are aware of that? Thirty-five per cent Canadian content in Category 2. There is a regulation.
2828 Can you live with that?
2829 MR. COWIE: Well, out intention was -- yes. Our intention was to get there in three or four years, but yes.
2830 MR. RHÉAUME: So we basically throw the blended out the window?
2831 MR. COWIE: It becomes blended --
2832 MR. RHÉAUME: No, it doesn't. You would have a 25 per cent requirement on Category 3 -- 25 per cent Canadian content in Category 3 -- that is your commitment, right -- plus the Commission would be -- assuming that you get a licence, the Commission would be silent with respect to Category 2, which means the regulations apply.
2833 That is essentially the discussion we had in Vancouver.
2834 Does that work for you or not?
2835 MR. COWIE: Let me just ask our experts here one question around the --
2836 MR. RHÉAUME: It's a lot of math. I understand that.
2837 MR. COWIE: No, no, I understand. No, it's a good question.
2838 MR. COWIE: You would feel foolish -- or I would feel foolish if I were to say to you that is what we were going to do anyway, but that is what we were going to do anyway.
2839 MR. RHÉAUME: Why the blended?
2840 MR. COWIE: Quite frankly, we were more focused on the growth of Canadian content in Category 3 and our focus has been on trying to build the music on that side of it. Because what happens if you get to blending Category 3 and 2 and 3 gets to 35 per cent, 2 has to come down and the amount of Canadian content will be reduced there and increased in 3 and you actually do get to a 35 per cent across the board Canadian content factor in the format.
2841 So I guess in answer to your question: Do we go there sooner than later.
2842 MR. RHÉAUME: Right.
2843 MR. COWIE: My advice I'm getting is, yes.
2844 MR. RHÉAUME: Okay. So your answer would be your are okay with the regulations as they are. That would be 35 per cent Canadian content for Category 2 music, and then you would have a commitment by condition of license of 25 per cent of your Category 3 music. Is that understood?
2845 MR. COWIE: Yes.
2846 MR. RHÉAUME: Is that okay?
2847 MR. COWIE: Yes.
2848 MR. RHÉAUME: All right.
2849 Now, another concern. We have your application. This is a competitive process, I just want you to understand that there is a source of concern with respect to your 35 per cent of Category 3, which means that you qualify as a specialty format. You are within the specialty format.
2850 However, you can have 65 per cent of your music to Category 2, which could be entirely vocal. I believe there was some kind of answer, I'm not sure if you mentioned 90 per cent of your Category 2 music would be vocal.
2851 So with that kind of blend, would you not agree that the format could be very, very close to an urban AC format?
2852 MR. COWIE: There are two issues there. One, our focus has been on building Category 3 in terms of its Canadian content to 35 per cent. The reason we didn't go there immediately was because we don't think the music is available from Canadian artists in smooth jazz to get us there. It will be, and that is why we said earlier that by the mid-term of this license we wanted to bring the Canadian content up to 35 per cent.
2853 The other factor is that for this format to work it has to have a very high instrumental part to it. Vocals don't make it. It has to have a very high instrumental factor. That takes away any idea of trying to get to those kinds of numbers in Category 2 vocals.
2854 MR. RHÉAUME: Are you suggesting, then, that with 35 per cent Category 3, being roughly the minimum to qualify as a specialty format, 35 per cent, your minimum would be 29 per cent I guess, under 70 -- I'm sorry, that would be 31 per cent where specialty --
2855 MR. COWIE: I'm sorry, I was talking about a 35 per cent Canadian content.
2856 MR. RHÉAUME: Maybe my question wasn't framed properly.
2857 The 35 per cent to Category 3, I'm not talking Canadian content --
2858 MR. COWIE: You are talking about music.
2859 MR. RHÉAUME: -- in order to quality as a specialty. Could this be a cause --
2860 I will rephrase the question: Could this be a cause for concern where it would allow you to have 65 per cent Category 2, which could be totally vocal, 100 per cent vocal -- could be -- making your format extremely close to an urban AC format?
2861 MR. COWIE: Philosophically the answer is no, because if we go there this whole application is -- just won't work. I mean the format won't work.
2862 MR. RHÉAUME: Last question. You mentioned a high ratio of instrumental. I think personally that you are presenting a case for a Commission requirement somehow on instrumental.
2863 Do you have any views on that?
2864 MR. COWIE: As a matter of fact, you recall, counsel, in Vancouver we offered 50/50 as a condition of license, but you couldn't do that in a Category 2 station.
2865 MR. RHÉAUME: Why not?
2866 MR. COWIE: Well, because you don't regulate formats in -- I'm sorry, that was your answer.
2867 MR. RHÉAUME: No, no, we don't regulate format, I agree with that. But if you have a commitment for instrumental --
2868 MR. COWIE: We offered that in --
2869 MR. RHÉAUME: -- it really has nothing to do with format.
2870 MR. COWIE: We offered that in Vancouver and it was not --
2871 MR. RHÉAUME: What are you suggesting here if there is a concern on the part of the Commission with respect to your 35 per cent Category 3 versus 65 Category 2?
2872 MR. COWIE: Right.
2873 MR. RHÉAUME: If there is a concern.
2874 MR. COWIE: From the testing we have done and from the playlist we presented to the Commission today, those that we have been working on with Commission staff, and so on, we would agree to a 60/40 split instrumental to vocal.
2875 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you. I apologize for all the math. I do hate it myself.
2876 MR. COWIE: Not at all. You told us some things we had not thought about.
2877 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you.
2878 Thank you, Madam Chairperson.
2879 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, counsel.
2880 Other questions?
2881 Thank you very much, Mr. Cowie. Now you can become a consultant and sell this clever idea.
2882 Thank you for your patience and collaboration. We will see you again, of course, in the following phases.
2883 Mme POIRIER: Madame Wylie --
2884 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Oui?
2885 Mme POIRIER: Leurs trois minutes.
2886 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Ah, oui.
2887 Yes, you do have three minutes -- we were so busy counting here we forgot -- three minute to tell us why, despite counsel's questions, your application is the best for this frequency.
2888 MR. COWIE: Thank you very much.
2889 We don't intend to take three minutes, but we do appreciate the opportunity.
2890 We hope that what you have heard from us today and have received from our team throughout the process has convinced you that this application and the applicant meets the expectations of the Ottawa/Hull communities, the musicians who would be our format partners, the Commission and the spirit of the Broadcast Act.
2891 We believe in the format. We believe in the business plan. We believe that Canadian artists have both the capacity and the will to make this station very special.
2893 MR. HILL: We believe the opportunity to license a new player in Ottawa/Hull is both timely and desirable. We are in the radio business for the long term, but to stay there and to compete in other markets in the future we need to expand our base.
2894 The opportunity is here and now. We have the people. We have the financial resources and we have a competitive application.
2895 We would be honoured if the Commission would grant a licence to us.
2896 Thank you.
2897 MR. COWIE: Commissioner Cardozo, thank you very much, Members of the Commission and staff, a pleasure again and we will see you soon.
2898 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Cowie and your colleagues.
2899 We will now take a 10-minute break to allow for a change in panel.
2900 Nous reprendrons dans 10 minutes pour permettre le changement des panels.
--- Upon recessing at 1445 / Suspension à 1445
--- Upon resuming at 1500 / Reprise à 1500
2901 THE CHAIRPERSON: Order, please. A l'ordre, s'il vous plaît. We are back for the next applicant.
2902 Madam la secrétaire, s'il vous plaît.
2903 MS POIRIER: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.
2904 The next application is presented by 914258 Ontario Limited on behalf of a corporation to be incorporated, to carry a specialty FM (ethnic radio) station in Ottawa/Hull.
2905 The new station would operate on frequency 89.9 MHz (channel 120C1) with an effective radiated power of 3,200 watts.
2906 By condition of licence, the applicant is proposing to direct programming to a minimum of 19 cultural groups in a minimum of 20 different languages each broadcast week.
2907 You can start now.
2908 MR. RAY: Thank you, Madam Chairman. My name is Neeti Parkasst Ray and I am President of Infinity Broadcasting, 914258 Ontario Limited.
2909 Before I start the formal part of the presentation, I would like to introduce our panel members to you. Starting with Renu, who is sitting on my right, she is my partner both in life and in Infinity. To her right is Ivana Baldelli. She is an equity partner in Infinity Broadcasting and she is also legal counsel for the City of Ottawa and Director of Italian Language School, a well known and very active member, and also attractive, in the Italian community and Chairperson of Infinity's Board of Directors.
2910 On my left is Mr. James Robson. He is a member of Infinity's Board of Directors and our broadcast consultant. To his left is Hans Jansen. He is a partner in Bay Consulting Group and our marketing consultant.
2911 Going to the side table, starting on your left is Raj Rasalingam. He is President of Pearson Shoyama Institute and also Chairman of Infinity's Advisory Council. Next to him is Parul Mathur, Parul representing the Indian Students Federation of Ottawa University.
2912 Next to Parul is Aman Hundal. Mr. Hundal is Chair of Media and Public Relations, Ottawa Sikh Society, and also President of the Pardesi.org community Web site.
2913 Next to Aman is Danh Nguyen. He is President of Vietnamese Canada Community of Ottawa. Next to Danh is Alicia. Alicia is Chair of the Philippines Business Council and a practising lawyer.
2914 On the back row, starting on that side, is Zahra Hassan and she is Director of Somali Centre for Women, Youth and Community Development. Next to Zahra is Max Beauje. He is producer of the Haitian radio program on CHUO, the Ottawa University FM radio station.
2915 Next to Max is Sharon Kan. She is Manager of the largest multicultural social services in the City of Ottawa and past-President of the Federation of Chinese Associations and now on its Board of Directors.
2916 Next to Sharon is Ewart Walters. Ewart is also our creative partner and on Infinity's Board of Directors. He is also publisher of the widely read community newspaper called The Spectrum. He is a community radio personality and secretary of the National Council of Visible Minorities in the federal public service.
2917 Last but not the least, on that end is Mr. Pierre Labarre our engineering consultant.
2918 Also, Madam Chair, we have some members of the advisory council in the audience here, Sonia del Rosario, Nyamme Samuels, Mukesh Gupta, Suraj -- in fact if I may, we talked a bit. I didn't give you the positions.
2919 Sonia is a Vice-President of the Canadian Philippine Association. Samuels is Executive Director of the National Council of Jamaicans. Mukesh is the President of the India Indo-Canada Chamber of Commerce.
2920 Now, George Dai is in place of Albert Tang who is Chairman of the Federation of Ottawa Chinese organizations. Then we have Suraj Harish, President of the India-Canada Association, Louis Gyorffy. Mr. Gyorffy is President of Ottawa Hungarian Community Centre.
2921 We have Dr. Zarzycki, President of the Canadian Polish Congress. Jose Parra, President of the Columbian Canadian d'Ottawa. Also we have Betty Hankes Dezma in place of her husband, Martin Hans Drielsma, who is President of Dutch Canadian Association of Ottawa. Last but not least we have Daijit Gill, President of Ottawa Sikh Society.
2922 Madam Chair and Commissioners, it is with a deep sense of pride and commitment that Infinity Broadcasting appears before you today seeking approval to establish the National Capital Region's first full service ethnic FM radio station on frequency 89.9 MHz.
2923 Today Ottawa/Hull stands as one of the largest and most culturally diverse urban centres in Canada, yet it remains one of the last major markets to have at least one dedicated full service ethnic radio station to serve the broadcasting needs of an ever-growing multicultural population.
2924 In reality, Ottawa/Hull's English and French speaking populations are relatively served by 18 public and private commercial mainstream radio stations while the region's large and ever-growing ethnic population remains unserved.
2925 More precisely, Ottawa/Hull's 18 mainstream radio stations provide their English and French speaking audiences with some 2,268 hours of programming each week. By comparison, Ottawa/Hull's diverse ethno-cultural communities, constituting some 33 per cent of the region's total population, have zero programming hours available to them from any dedicated full-service ethnic radio station because no such radio station exists.
2926 Based on Infinity's extensive consultations with local third language consumers and our consumer demand study and the more than 1,800 letters of support filed with the Commission, it is abundantly clear that the need and demand for Infinity's proposed new ethnic FM radio station is both overwhelming and long past due.
2927 To further illustrate the need for dedicated ethnic radio programming services for the region's multicultural communities, a national cultural organization stated the following in a letter to the Commission:
"As the Nation's Capital, such programming is well overdue and is in conformity with the CRTC Ethnic Broadcasting Policy and multicultural provisions of the Broadcasting Act. As a window to Canada, Ottawa's broadcasting industry must be reflective of the multilingual communities which have been under served to date and the situation needs to be rectified."
2928 It is also significant that Infinity's "Ottawa Radio Audience Study" conducted by COMPAS Inc. indicated that 83 per cent of survey respondents felt that a new ethnic radio station would be a positive addition to the Ottawa/Hull radio market and 72 per cent indicated a very strong to moderately strong need for a local ethnic radio station.
2929 Given the existing radio service provisions for the English and French speaking populations and the absence of a dedicated local multilingual radio station, approval of Infinity's proposed new ethnic radio station on 89.9 will fill in the missing service link within Ottawa/Hull's otherwise well-rounded local radio programming spectrum.
2930 Mr. Robson.
2931 MR. ROBSON: Madam Chair and Commissioners, the licensing of Infinity for 89.9 FM will introduce to Ottawa/Hull an historic first full service ethnic FM radio station that will target and serve 19 multicultural communities, representing more than 400,000 third language Canadians.
2932 The approval and implementation of Infinity's ethnic programming undertaking will yield many key benefits to the third language communities involved, to developing Canadian ethnic talent, to ethnic business owners, to Canada's evolving private multilingual radio sector and to the Canadian broadcasting system as a whole.
2933 More specifically, Infinity on 89.9 FM will among many key considerations provide first time locally relevant, community-driven programming to 19 ethno-cultural communities in their own heritage languages; greatly enhance the level of programming diversity and listener choice within the Ottawa/Hull region by introducing ethnic programming elements that do not exist on local mainstream radio; introduce a unique world beat international music segment that will complement and enhance Infinity's ethnic programming, add further musical diversity and listener choice to Ottawa radio and promote greater cross-cultural understanding among the 19 ethnic communities themselves and the broader mainstream community; invest a minimum of $1.6 million in direct and indirect expenditures on the development, promotion and on air exposure of local ethnic Canadian talent; add important new diversity to the ownership ranks of ethnic broadcasting in Ottawa and Canada through the inclusion of visible minority owners; train and develop a new generation of ethnic broadcasters to serve the multicultural communities with the region; provide Ottawa/Hull ethnic business owners with a cost effective radio advertising vehicle to target and serve specific third language communities; beneficially attract new listeners and increased hours of tuning to local radio without impacting on existing stations; generate new radio dollars from the unserved Ottawa/Hull ethnic business community with very minimal impact, if any, on existing mainstream stations; create important new employment opportunities for ethnic broadcasters within the Ottawa/Hull radio market and fully optimize the utilization of the 89.9 frequency through the extension of multicultural, multilingual programming services to 19 third language communities and more than 400,000 ethnic Canadians.
2935 MS RENU: Madam Chair and Commissioners, Infinity's objective in responding to the Commission's call was to create a radio station that meaningfully addresses and reflects the rich cultural diversity of the Ottawa/Hull region and responds directly to the communications needs of its third language communities by giving them a dedicated local radio voice.
2936 In fulfilling this objective, Infinity will provide high quality, locally relevant, community-driven programming to 19 ethnic cultural communities, including Chinese, Spanish, Italian, Arabic, South Asian, Caribbean, Polish, Vietnamese, Hungarian, Russian, Ukrainian, Jewish, Dutch, German, Portuguese, Greek, Filipino, Somali and Haitian.
2937 Infinity's inclusive approach to serving 19 cultural communities in 20 languages is both necessary and desirable given that Ottawa/Hull has no established ethnic radio infrastructure which can be further enhanced by a new multicultural station entering the market.
2938 In markets like Toronto or Edmonton or Vancouver where a basic ethnic radio broadcasting infrastructure is established, the addition of a new multilingual service is a matter of building upon or complementing what currently exists. In Ottawa/Hull, given that Infinity if licensed would be establishing the first ethnic radio broadcasting undertaking, it is imperative that we strive to serve more rather than fewer third language communities.
2939 As the composition of Canada's major urban centres continue to undergo dramatic change, driven by the ongoing growth in the ethnic diversity of their respective populations, it is important to understand the needs of that growing multiculturalism and the impact that their radio has on the lives of third language Canadians.
2940 Infinity, as experienced visible minority ethnic broadcasters, know the true value of third language radio programming to multicultural communities. We are of those communities. We immigrated to Canada and have lived the experience of trying to find our way and fit into a new way of life as Canadians and we have fought long and hard to achieve a permanent radio voice to reach out to multicultural communities.
2941 In the words of Dr. Rakoff of the Clarke Institute of Psychiatry:
"-- a transition to a new culture is made more easily by people who come with a strong sense of their ethnic identity --"
2942 Eminent Canadian sociologist Raymond Breton in his research on the acculturation process of immigrants points out that:
"-- besides religious institutions, it is radio programs that have the most important effect on an immigrant's interpersonal network."
2943 Given these well researched needs of immigrants and Infinity's experience that an ethnic radio station in essence becomes part of the extended family that immigrants leave behind, we have opted to serve as many third language communities as possible without compromising on the quality of programming and the quantity of time allocated to each language group.
2945 MR. RAY: Madam Chair and Commissioners, in serving 19 communities, Infinity is sensitive to the challenge of balancing the quantitative needs of a large unserved ethnic population, with the all-important qualitative considerations.
2946 We are mindful of the Commission's Ethnic Broadcasting Policy and Public Notice CRTC 1999-117, which states in part:
"A balance may be struck between the two priorities, serving as many groups as practical, and providing high quality programming to those groups that are served."
2947 Infinity shares the Commission's insistence on quality programming since achieving the highest quality possible has always been our benchmark and the key to our success in producing world-class, multicultural programs in Edmonton and in Toronto.
2948 This quest for high quality programming is central to Infinity's opting to station-produce each community's programming undertakings rather than broker to independent producers.
2949 Essentially, the objective of consistently delivering locally-relevant, high quality programming produced by the community and for the community will best be achieved by Infinity's role as a broadcast trainer/community animator/producer facilitator rather than as a broadcast landlord collecting fees for brokered airtime from independent ethnic producers and broadcasters.
2950 In terms of achieving and maintaining a high quality programming service for each of the 19 language groups, Infinity has a number of important tools at its disposal, including:
2951 (1) an ongoing commitment to training both in-house and institutionally;
2952 (2) the allocation of quality time slots to every community, regardless of size, across the 6 a.m. to 12 midnight regulated portion of the broadcast day; and
2953 (3) an independent advisory council composed of representative members from the various ethno-cultural communities that will, among other responsibilities, monitor the programming and advise and recommend changes and improvements to further enhance the quality and level of service provided to each language group.
2954 In addition to the ongoing training initiatives and the key role to be filled by the independent advisory council, Infinity would underline that it has structured its proposed broadcasting schedule to ensure that each language group has a minimum of two hours of programming per week for those allocated weekend time slots and a minimum of five hours per week for those groups allocated weekday time slots.
2956 MS RAY: Madam Chair and Commissioners, the most critical factor in measuring the quality of a broadcasting service is the relevance of its programming to the local community that it proposes to serve.
2957 From the many consultations that Infinity conducted with third language groups throughout the Ottawa/Hull region, the message was loud and clear. They wanted locally relevant, community-driven programming that reflected the news, activities and events, current affairs, local talent, music, and a host of other undertakings that were important to their respective communities.
2958 In addition to the local community focus, there was a strong desire for news, information and music from their homelands.
2959 Infinity proposes to give the 19 third language communities what they want: locally relevant, locally produced, community-driven programming.
2960 Supplementing the local programming components will be news and information from the home countries of the ethnic communities, as provided by such international broadcast news organizations as Voice of America and the British Broadcasting Corporation, both of whom are represented in Canada by Infinity.
2961 A further diverse programming element is the proposed World Beat/International Music segment to be carried on 89.9 FM, Monday through Friday.
2962 In determining what, if any, mainstream component Infinity might add to its multicultural undertaking, we did not want to incorporate any programming element that would impact on the integrity or change the character of 89.9 FM as a dedicated full-service ethnic radio station, nor did we want a mainstream element that would not add diversity to the market, nor one that would impact on existing stations by duplicating what was readily available on local radio.
2963 Upon applying those three criteria, World Beat/International Music was the perfect fit in that it totally complements 89.9 FM's ethnic mandate. It will lend further musical diversity to the Ottawa/Hull marketplace, and it will not impact on existing stations because the music is largely unheard on local mainstream stations.
2964 The other very attractive aspect of World Beat/International Music is that it will enable Infinity's 89.9 FM to promote greater cross-cultural understanding among its family of 19 multicultural communities and the broader mainstream community.
2965 While the World Music selections will largely be in third languages, Infinity has proposed to employ French and English spoken word during the World Beat/International Music segments to help position or explain a song or artist so that cross-cultural listeners and second and third generation ethnic Canadians can understand and further appreciate the language, the music and its message.
2966 Mr. Robson.
2967 MR. ROBSON: Madam Chair and Commissioners, approval of Infinity's application will greatly benefit Canadian ethnic talent within the Ottawa/Hull region. As detailed in our application, Infinity proposes to spend a minimum of $203,555 in direct expenditures and $1.4 million in indirect on-air talent promotion initiatives over the initial seven-year term of the licence.
2968 In formulating our Canadian talent-development proposals for Ottawa/Hull, it was important to keep in mind that Infinity, if licensed, will become the first full service ethnic radio station in the region. As such, Infinity's priority is to ensure that its talent development proposals will be utilized in an equitable and inclusive fashion across the region's multicultural population.
2969 The direct expenditure initiatives within our Canadian talent development proposals will, in our view, achieve that goal. They are as follows:
2970 (1) annual Infinity ethnic scholarship fund, $4,000 per year;
2971 (2) annual grant to CAEB music catalogue, $3,000;
2972 (3) Infinity's grant program, $14,000;
2973 (4) Canadian World Beat Artist Fund, $4,000.
2974 While the first year total for the direct expenditure initiatives is $25,000, in subsequent years, two through seven, Infinity will increase its direct expenditures on the above projects by 5 per cent per annum, bringing the total to $203,555.
2975 And I stress that that is a minimum figure.
2976 It is our view that the combined total of $1.6 million in direct and indirect expenditures over seven years will have a profoundly beneficial impact on the lives and careers of developing ethnic Canadian talent within the Ottawa/Hull region.
2978 MR. JANSEN: Madam Chair and Commissioners, the Bay Consulting Group's Economic and Market Study of the Ottawa/Hull radio market demonstrates a clear opportunity for Infinity's proposed ethnic station at 89.9 FM, because none exists at the moment and because market revenues of all AM and FM stations will be approximately $47.2 million in 2001. Also, local and national demand for FM airtime continues to grow.
2979 Infinity's programming services to 19 multicultural communities in 20 different languages will attract new listeners and increased hours of tuning to FM from targeted unserved ethnic communities. This increased listenership and hours tuned to FM will not come at the expense of other Ottawa/Hull mainstream stations. This is because the third language communities targeted by Infinity are currently unserved.
2980 As well, approval of Infinity's application will result in "new radio dollars" being attracted to Ottawa/Hull's FM sector with very minimal impact on existing broadcasters because our revenues will accrue largely from ethnic businesses interested in effectively reaching those unserved third language communities.
2981 Infinity's projected dollar share of the Ottawa/Hull radio market will be only 2.1 per cent in year one, going up to 2.8 per cent in year seven.
2982 We would also like to point out that Infinity's sources of revenues would accrue as follows: 60 per cent would come from new advertisers; about 25 per cent would be repatriation from other media; 6 per cent would stem from increased budgets of existing radio advertisers; and 9 per cent would be from local market radio stations.
2983 It is also significant to note that based on letters received by the Commission from the Ottawa/Hull ethnic business community, the total to date of $465,000 in pre-bookings were realized before any sales or marketing activities were undertaken by Infinity.
2984 In the final analysis, the Bay study concludes that:
"...the long-term outlook for the economy of the Ottawa/Hull area is excellent and the proposed FM radio station can realistically set a revenue target of $1.1 million for its first year of operation."
2986 MR. ROBSON: Madam Chair and Commissioners, Infinity's ethnic broadcast plan for 89.9 FM fully meets the spirit and intent of the Broadcasting Act and the Commission's Ethnic Broadcasting Policy, and from our perspective it represents the most comprehensive and productive utilization of the 89.9 FM frequency.
2987 The past two decades have witnessed a remarkable change in many urban centres across Canada -- change which, in large part, has been driven by the continuing steady growth in the multicultural composition of the various urban populations.
2988 It would appear that such growth in Canada's multicultural population will continue well into the future as immigration levels, if anything, are likely to be increased by the Department of Immigration.
2989 With respect to radio broadcasting, Canada's third language communities and their ever-growing need for basic radio service is on a collision course with an almost depleted source of usable public broadcasting frequencies. Hence those few remaining high power frequencies must be utilized to their optimum advantage in reaching and serving the unserved and the under served.
2990 In seeking the Commission's approval for 89.9 FM, Infinity would underline that its utilization of the frequency would be maximized through the extension of first ethnic FM service to 19 ethno-cultural communities representing over 400,000 unserved third language Canadians living within the nation's capital region.
2991 I would again stress that approval of Infinity's application would add important new diversity to the ownership ranks of ethnic broadcasting in Canada.
2992 Infinity's majority owners are highly experienced career ethnic broadcasters, who bring a fresh perspective, new ideas and approaches, new energies and commitment, and an acute sensitivity to Ottawa/Hull's multicultural reality.
2993 It is important to provide the 89.9 FM opportunity to a new generation of hands-on visible minority broadcaster/owners.
2995 MR. RAY: Finally, Madam Chair and Commissioners, Infinity and its 19 member family of multicultural communities are excited by the challenge to establish the National capital Region's first dedicated full-service ethnic radio station to serve the needs of more than 400,000 unserved third-language Canadians.
2996 Infinity has the experience, the resource, the corporate will and, above all, the broadly-based support of Ottawa/Hull's diverse ethno-cultural communities who, in themselves, are determined to fully optimize this opportunity to gain an Ethnic radio voice amongst the 18 mainstream stations in the market.
2997 Together we respectfully ask for your approval for 89.9 FM.
2998 Thank you very much for this opportunity, Madam Chair.
2999 My colleagues and I await your questions.
3001 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Ray, Mrs. Ray and your colleagues.
3002 Commissioner Pennefather, please.
3003 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you, Madam Chair.
3004 Good afternoon. Thank you for your presentation, Mr. Ray, Ms Ray, members of your team. Welcome as well to supporters and to the members of the advisory council who are here in considerable numbers.
3005 We are going to look at your application in certain areas. I have detailed questions and I will just give you the list of the areas we will cover. Programming, your Canadian talent development proposals, listener demand for the service, your business plan, the advisory board and its role. I have some technical questions at the end.
3006 Before we get to the specific questions in those areas, I would like to take a step back and just look with you at your overall approach to the ethnic station you are proposing and have a general discussion on what you feel its principal features are and why they are important for this market.
3007 We will obviously, in doing that, touch on some of the areas I have mentioned, programming and talent development, and so on, but what I hope to do in discussing this in a general way is to get a better sense of what has motivated you to produce the approach that you have specifically for this market.
3008 As a starting point, I am looking at the supplementary brief on page 3. In fact, I think in this afternoon's presentation on page 8 you also raise what I think seems to stand out as one of the principal concepts driving your proposal. It is framed in the words that you use in the supplementary brief that you were looking for a different approach. You were looking for:
"...an approach that would unequivocally fulfil the programming needs of the region's large, unserved multilingual population without compromising the integrity of the ethnic broadcasting mandate or unduly impacting existing local mainstream stations." (As read)
3009 Could you expand a little bit on why you took that approach and what it meant in terms of the programming schedule and the way you have gone about preparing your application?
3010 MR. RAY: Yes, Madam Commissioner.
3011 Infinity's goal is to serve the multicultural communities of Ottawa who so far are badly under served. The approach that we have taken, it will unequivocally fulfil those needs.
3012 At the same time, we wanted to go a little bit beyond that, for reasons that we will have the opportunity to further expand on, and that is to add the world beat music programming which very nicely complements the ethnic programming that we have proposed.
3013 We have kept in mind the fact that there are many communities in Ottawa/Hull that we have to serve and it is a challenge to do that. So we kept everything in consultation, including the quality of programming that we want to provide to them, which is not available at this time, and use our experience and expertise in training and making the local on-air prospective talents ready for the new radio station, which will be a welcome change, a welcome addition to Ottawa's radio world.
3014 We certainly hope that the proposal that we have provided fulfils those objectives and whatever is required.
3015 I don't know if Renu would like to add something to that.
3016 MS RAY: Madam Chair, I would like to add here that Ottawa is such a beautiful city, the capital of this nation. It has the French-speaking people on one side, the English-speaking people on the other side and yet there is something missing because there is a whole group of multicultural people that exist in Ottawa who are really not accounted for on the radio dial, and perhaps not on the television either. This missing link is what prompted us to do something about serving those vastly unserved ethnic reality.
3017 Now, as we all know, immigration -- because of the open immigration policy of Canada, immigrants are continuing to come into Canada. As Sharon Kan, who is from the Catholic Immigration Centre, will tell us later on, she has just informed us lately that there are up to 8,000 people coming into Ottawa every year who are immigrants. That adds up every year. Yet there is no service for the ethnic people here on the radio.
3018 This is a growing reality of Canada. Looking at it from this point of view, that the French-speaking people, the English-speaking people are served by 18 stations, and yet they are close to perhaps one million people. The ethnic people are close to 400,000 people out of that one million, but they are not served at all.
3019 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: So you see in the first instance a need for a service simply because of the lack of such a service.
3020 When you developed the details of how that service would sound and look, you referred this afternoon and in your supplementary brief to considerable consultation.
3021 Before getting to the research, the COMPAS research, I wanted to just ask you to expand a little more on the consultations you undertook.
3022 You refer to:
"...an intimate knowledge and understanding of the needs..." (As read)
3023 And also to:
"...extensive ongoing animation of the NCR's multilingual, multicultural communities by Infinity". (As read)
3024 What do you mean by "extensive ongoing animation" in the NCR area?
3025 MR. RAY: Before Renu elaborates on that, it has been our intention to provide a radio station to Ottawa's vast multicultural communities, Ottawa/Hull's, and to make it a station for the community and by the community.
3026 That is quite a challenge. In order to achieve that we had to go into those communities and consult with them, which we did. For a period of six weeks we stationed ourselves here and we met a number of organizations that Renu will further give you details on.
3027 We have been doing this -- the intense consultations we did was during the last six weeks, but we have been doing this since 1999. It was 1997 that I personally first identified the void here in the radio spectrum.
3028 In the last six weeks what we have done, Renu will give you an overview on that.
3029 MS RAY: Madam Chair, I would like to add here that I have spent a considerable amount of time here in Ottawa, leaving my family in Toronto, and my daughter, and I have pitched my camp here and I have gone all out to meet as many language groups as I possibly could.
3030 Last night, as I was sitting and tabulating, it ends up being 35 language groups that I have contacted here. I didn't realize it myself until I sat down to make a note of it, that I have been in consultation with all these groups, starting from the Lebanese Association, the Dutch Canadian Association, Canadian Polish Congress, Federation of Chinese Associations.
3031 The Indian organizations totalled to 14, which I have not even included in the 35. I have counted them as South Asian.
3032 The Ukrainian Canadian Profession and Business Association, the Columbian Canadian Association of Ottawa, the Somali Centre for Youth and Women.
3033 I could keep on reading, but I have a whole list here. There are 35 organizations that I met with on a person-to-person basis.
3034 I actually went out there. I did not hire a PR person to do my work for me, because coming from a social work background I wanted to study the needs of the community here.
3035 I was really touched to see that people welcomed me with open arms and they wanted to support Infinity's application because they thought that there isn't anything out there for them and here would be a first ever radio station that would be reflecting their needs and their interests.
3036 Just to give you an example, I went to a function of the Chinese Federation of organizations and I spoke about Infinity's application and it was translated into Chinese by the MC over there. I had so much applause, simply because the talent that was out there and the talented people, the artists who were singing and performing, they felt that for the first time they will be able to put their talents on the radio and they will be heard.
3037 So it was extremely exciting the kind of response that I got from all these communities.
3038 The Vietnamese people. I went to the Buddhist Temple. The monk offered me lunch because he was so excited to know that finally there would be a radio station that would represent the interests of the Vietnamese people.
3039 The same way the Spanish people or the Caribbean people, they were so excited to know that finally there is somebody who is listening to their point of view.
3040 In these discussions that I had with them, a lot of them had many questions. Some of the questions were things like whether they would be able to participate in the program content, in the decision-making policies of the station or in finding out who is the talent out there that would be appropriate to run the program.
3041 They wanted to take a share in participating in the radio station and that is what encouraged us to realize that the local people are so involved and they want so much to be part of this radio station.
3042 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you for that because you have raised some key elements that we will come back to as we look at how this comes together as a program schedule and how you are going to manage and the role of the advisory council. Those are the themes that I obviously want to pick up.
3043 With your particular expertise, not only in social work and the way you went about your research, but also as experienced broadcasters, did you notice specific needs in the Ottawa/Hull market.
--- Telephone ringing
3044 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Oh, Mr. Ray, that is bad. Madam Chair is going to speak to you about your phone. Are we muted now? We will take that again from the top.
3045 Did you notice any specific differences in the Ottawa/Hull market as compared, let's say, to the Toronto market because some of the points you have raised could be true in other markets in terms of the value that an ethnic station would bring to a community -- to many communities.
3046 Did you notice anything that is specific to this market?
3047 MS RAY: For one thing, Madam Chair, in Toronto there is a lot of ethnic radio programs available. The ethnic people who are there are not as lost because they have something to hang onto, to identify with on the television as well as on the radio which is absolutely lacking in Ottawa.
3048 That was one major difference. In fact, it was a glaring difference because when I came here I saw a difference in the behaviour, the body language of the ethnic people in Ottawa as compared to Toronto.
3049 I attribute a lot of that to the fact that the ethnic people in Toronto are perhaps more comfortable with who they are and if you look at what the Canadian sociologist and Dr. Rakoff the psychiatrist says, people who are more comfortable with their ethnic identity end up being more positive, more productive and have much more participation in their mainstream.
3050 I found here that because of a lack of confirmation of identity from the broadcast services there was something different about the ethnic people. I would like Ivana to add to that, please.
3051 MS BALDELLI: Madam Commissioner, I did accompany Renu at times during these last two months and I think it's a known fact here in Ottawa, it's our own mentality and I have lived here for many years, that, if I may say, we don't really want to be linked, for example, to Toronto that you mentioned.
3052 We have our own individuality. We are proud of that being capital of Canada and we are proud that we could have our own ethnic radio station. With that pride there is no question of what I have seen in talking to people that we would do anything to support it.
3053 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you. In these discussions you had with various groups and in the COMPAS research, did you notice any difference in the responses of the younger people you met and the older people you met?
3054 MS RAY: I found the older people and the younger people equally excited about an ethnic program. It was very interesting to note that because the older people's concerns were that they were not able to get news from back home, they were not able to keep abreast of the local community here in Ottawa. They were not able to access the information that was taking place in the mainstream. For example, if there is a natural disaster, for example, they would be the last to know about it because they don't tune in to the mainstream radio or the television.
3055 They were very excited to know that they could have a program in their language that would address those particular needs. The younger people were equally excited because I guess it's supposed to be in to be ethnic. The music that you can hear these days is very ethnic sometimes, the Spanish music, the French music. It is of a lot of interest to the young people and they are very open to the music from the world.
3056 I found that attracted them a great deal besides the fact that they wanted to identify with their own cultural language.
3057 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: In the supplementary brief on page 16, there is a reference to what respondents were asked in the COMPAC study regarding their expectations for an ethnic service.
3058 There are three points raised and they noted in your brief: help immigrants to keep in touch with news and cultural events from their homelands, assist immigrants to Canada to adapt to Canadian customs and laws and strength and understanding between the multicultural communities and the general public through daily reflection of the richness of Ottawa's cultural diversity.
3059 Of those three, which appear to be the priority from your understanding of the COMPAS research and also your own research? It's page 16.
3060 I am using the supplementary brief because it repeats a great deal of what is in the COMPAS report. It would be simpler if we use your brief.
3061 MR. RAY: I just want to clarify. You are asking what we think is the most important or what they thought, the respondents.
3062 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: What came out of the study as the most important and in your own work, what emerged as the key features that you will have to address in trying to meet the expectations?
3063 MS RAY: Well, it's a very difficult question because when I spoke to these people, all three of them were equally important for most of them.
3064 MR. RAY: You are obviously referring to the COMPAS survey --
3065 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Yes.
3066 MR. RAY: -- and not to the consultations that we had. Help immigrants to keep in touch with news and cultural events from their homelands. On a scale of one to seven, I see that that had the strongest response.
3067 Next to that on a scale to seven I see the strongest was assisting immigrants to Canada to adapt to Canadian customs and laws. Next to that was strengthening understanding between Ottawa's multicultural communities and the general public through the daily reflection of the richness of Ottawa's cultural diversity.
3068 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: So if we looked at your general approach to programming, before we get into the specific breakdown in hours and start looking at the details, how did that result affect your approach? What will it mean in terms of the mix that you will have to present in terms of music or spoken word?
3069 Before I get into the detail of numbers, what did it mean to you in terms of how you are going to plan your broadcast day?
3070 MR. RAY: Well, Madam Commissioner and Madam Chair, it would be very difficult to give you an exact percentage because first of all it is going to vary. Now, how are we going to fulfil that is what I am going to elaborate on first.
3071 That is, for example, helping the immigrants keep in touch with news and cultural events from their homelands. If that was to be the first priority and let me remind you that the COMPAS study did not target the ethnic communities such. It targeted the general population. In fact, 57 per cent of the respondents were of British or French origin.
3072 In any case to go on, in order to help them with news and cultural events from their homelands, we have affiliation with both the British Broadcasting Corporation and the Voice of America. They combined broadcast in 53 languages. The 19 languages that we propose to serve they have agreed to give us news feeds, international news in those languages. That is one.
3073 In short, to go to the next point, which is assisting immigrants to Canada to adapt to Canadian customs and laws. There will be components in the program that obviously would have to talk about the Canadian life, whether it is through open line shows, discussions, you know, certain shows like -- say if we bring somebody in from the police department and talk about traffic laws or bring somebody in from the social work and talk about social issues, whether it is child abuse or whatever else.
3074 Also to bring -- in fact, we are also in the unique position of being in Ottawa if we are fortunate enough to be licensed, it is the capital of Canada. We are in the shadows of Parliament. It will also give us an opportunity to bring on, for example, ethnic Members of Parliament to talk about political issues and to talk about -- perhaps the local councillors as well to talk about civic matters, both from the Hull side and from the Ottawa side.
3075 Third, strengthening understanding between Ottawa's multicultural communities and the general public. This, in our opinion, is quite important. We hope that the way we have formulated the programming, especially Monday to Friday, and that has the world beat international segment, that will target both the mainstream and the ethnic communities.
3076 On the mainstream side, it will target both the French, because we have a large number of French especially on the Hull side, and the English speaking. It is interesting because the songs and the music will be ethnic, all in third languages. For example, Céline Dion will not be singing "Titanic". She will probably sing something in Spanish or Greek and so on. You will probably hear Ravi Shankar or Mangeskar from India.
3077 The description, the narration being in English and French, it will hopefully generate interest in the mainstream to listen to those music and especially the instrumentals that have no language. We are hoping that it will bring that cross-cultural understanding amongst the ethnic communities and between the ethnic communities and the mainstream.
3078 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Well, as my colleague, Commissioner Cardozo, said earlier, you have guessed at my next point. I missed out on my chance for a question you weren't expecting.
3079 It is the world beat music which I am coming to now. It happens to be perhaps mentioned more often than many other aspects of your application throughout your supplementary brief and all the components of your application. It is this world beat component that, if I read it correctly, you are presenting as part of your unique approach.
3080 My question was why have you chosen to include in a schedule what is five hours a week of world beat music? We will get back to the kind of music we are talking about, but my point was one of the great challenges of your kind of station we are going to get to is balancing the needs of the many communities you are trying to serve.
3081 The world beat music takes up five hours each week of available air time.
3082 MR. RAY: Each day.
3083 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: I'm sorry, each day, 25 for the week. Why did you choose to include this component? You had begun to answer my questions in terms of cross-cultural programming. You refer to as mainstream yet world beat music may not be as such seen as mainstream.
3084 Could you also tell us what you mean by mainstream.
3085 MR. RAY: Let me step back a bit, Madam Commissioner and refer to my experience in Edmonton on CKER radio from 1980, from the date it was actually licensed, until 1989.
3086 I noticed that even at that time you were allowed to have up to 40 per cent mainstream programming on an ethnic radio station. So with the 60 per cent ethnic component, it still qualifies as an ethnic radio station.
3087 I have learned what to do in certain matters and what not to do in certain matters from CKER radio. I used to feel that the kind of mainstream programming they had was a kind of interruption in the flow of the ethnic characteristics of that radio station.
3088 In our case, what we did is we have taken only 20 per cent of the total schedule to broadcast what is called mainstream programming, World Beat/International Music.
3089 On the other hand, we also feel that it is a unique format that is called mainstream, but at the same time it does not take away in any way the ethnicity of that radio station. As I told you earlier, it is only the spoken words that are in English and French. The musical component and the vocals are all third language and ethnic.
3090 For example, if there was a program that had third language announcements and you had the same musical composition as the word, it would be called ethnic. The only thing we have taken out are the spoken words and put English and French in there, and it is called mainstream.
3091 But it so nicely fits into the environment that we create on an ethnic radio station with the help of third language and ethnic music.
3092 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: You see a connection in terms of the content of the music as fitting the nature. You see it also, from regulatory terms, as appropriate. You see it as a way to attract listeners, not just from the ethnic communities, but also from the mainstream.
3093 Am I interpreting you correctly?
3094 MR. RAY: Yes.
3095 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Fourth, in Schedule 5 of your application you say:
"The revenue accruing from this mainstream component of Infinity's overall ethnic programming service will be utilized to help subsidize the smaller third language communities who might otherwise continue to go unserved." (As read)
3096 Can you explain what you mean by that?
3097 MR. RAY: Yes. You might be aware that the revenue levels of ethnic radio stations across Canada, the amount of revenue that on the average an ethnic radio station generates, is a fraction of that of a mainstream radio station.
3098 One of the concerns that I would say broadcasters have had in the past -- and this, once again, I am saying from my experience on CKER radio that Roger Charest used to tell me; that the fact that he had mainstream programming on his radio station really helped during the initial years of that radio station.
3099 Let me tell you that you make the changes, of course. We don't write something on a piece of rock. As time passes by, there may be some changes.
3100 For example, on CKER radio the first two or three years it was very helpful financially to have that mainstream component. In the subsequent years, the amount of mainstream programming kept shrinking on CKER radio to the extent that today that component is zero.
3101 We didn't want to go into 40 per cent on the mainstream programming that you hear on other stations here, which is very well what we could have done. We decided to devote only 20 per cent to mainstream programming without affecting the character of the radio station so that we don't only have the cross-cultural understanding achieved, but also it would help -- if you see the breakdown of the revenues, you will see that the world beat programming will generate 25 per cent of the radio station's revenues.
3102 That, in our opinion, would be very helpful.
3103 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: I will come back to that in another round of the specifics on the revenues. My concern right now is to get a good understanding of not what the music is -- because we will come to that -- but why choose to in effect use up that number of hours every day.
3104 MR. RAY: I would like to add one thing before I have Mr. Robson comment on that as well.
3105 World music is very popular among ethnic communities. In fact, if you walk into any ethnic retail store, especially if they carry any CDs and tapes, you will notice that they will have a significant amount of world music available.
3106 I think it is also becoming popular among the mainstream, the French and English speaking. But it is already very popular amongst the ethnic community, and especially the youngsters and those who are the second generation and first generation as well.
3107 I would like Mr. Robson to add something to that.
3108 MR. ROBSON: Thank you, Neeti.
3109 Madam Commissioner, in a lot of discussions over the days and weeks leading up to the application going together and being filed, we go back to the phrase that you picked up on, that Infinity wanted to bring a different approach to the Ottawa/Hull community.
3110 They wanted a radio station that would reach out and achieve many things. Obviously, the predominant preoccupation was with the multicultural community, because that is where the whole station is targeted.
3111 One of the things that stuck in my mind in discussing it with Neeti is that he said: Look, I am south Asian, but I like calypso, I like reggae, I like Spanish music very much. So inherent within this World Beat/International Music component is a very heavy cross-cultural motivation.
3112 So those 19 communities in their respective programming slots across the week will of course hear the music of their native lands and so on, but then this provides them an extension beyond that.
3113 So if you are in the south Asian programming component, you are not going to hear Caribbean music. Once they step outside of their time slot and tune to those world beat sections in the morning and in the afternoon drive times, irrespective of what cultural community you are from, you have that universality of popular world artists from all over the globe.
3114 That was part of the component.
3115 The other aspect is that, of course, world music -- and the Commission is well aware of this -- is one of the fastest growing categories anywhere. If you go into any music store today, the world music racks are chock-a-block full of music from all over the world.
3116 Who is to say that English and French listening audiences in Ottawa/Hull would not also enjoy that component. And if they are not getting a steady diet of world music, other than through their own devices, CDs and the like, if they can tune in at a certain point in the day and hear that kind of music, that is of interest to them.
3117 So again that is another cross-cultural component.
3118 Neeti wanted to be very clear and very clean on the world music component and whether he should consider it to be mainstream or ethnic. So in putting the English and the French bridging component in there, it would help facilitate the understanding for the anglophones and the francophones who would want to listen to some of this, and of course for some of our ethnic communities, like the English-speaking communities like the Caribbean, and so on.
3119 Also, your second and third generation ethnic Canadian who again maybe want to step outside their immediate culture. That is the reality today. We are all multicultural and interested in other cultures.
3120 So through the English and the French bridging, they can fully understand and greater appreciate the music.
3121 That is kind of a rambling overview of where the seeds were struck.
3122 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: That is the point of my question, is why, and the effect of that. And the schedule has to be balanced against the other needs and expectations that you come up with.
3123 I would like to come back to the point of what kind of music we are talking about a little bit later, but let me go on now to the more specific questions I have.
3124 The first area is programming.
3125 You did reiterate in your presentation this afternoon the portion of the Ethnic Broadcasting Policy that I wanted to start with, setting out that in establishing the required number of distinct groups to be served, the Commission will also weigh the ability of the ethnic stations to provide appropriate amounts of quality programming to these groups.
3126 We note that you are proposing to devote 99 hours, 78.5 per cent of the broadcast week, of ethnic programming to 19 cultural groups which you qualify in your application as unserved in the Ottawa area market; 92 hours, 73 per cent, would be devoted to third language programming.
3127 I think indeed in the deficiency you reiterated the 92 hours as the number.
3128 Programming directed to four groups -- the Chinese, Arabic, Italian and south Asian communities -- accounts for 45 hours, or 45.5 per cent, of your total ethnic and third language commitment.
3129 However, 54 hours, or 54.5 per cent -- that is over half of your ethnic and third language programming commitment -- is directed to the remaining 15 cultural groups.
3130 We can see that reflected in your schedule. This is the schedule I have that I am using that was in the application.
3131 Could you outline the steps that you will take to ensure that you can provide the amount and the quality of local programming necessary to adequately meet the needs of 19 groups that you propose to serve, with an emphasis on the 15 groups that comprise the 54.5 per cent of your overall third language and ethnic programming.
3132 In other words, apart from the Chinese, Arabic, Italian and south Asian communities, there are other communities that will be served.
3133 How did you go about creating your proposal and why to provide quality programming? How will you assure that?
3134 MR. RAY: Madam Commissioner, let me first answer why.
3135 I must begin by saying that it was quite a challenge to strike that balance. I have seen stations in Toronto -- there are six of them, and of course most of them do provide services to an average of 18 to 20 languages, except I suppose one radio station, CIRV, that provides services to only ten.
3136 It is possible, especially now in large centres like Toronto and Vancouver where you already have a few radio stations serving those ethnic communities, to have another station that can afford to utilize the opportunity by serving a less number, as low as I would say ten languages and serve them really well, by allocating more time to each one of them.
3137 But when we looked at the Ottawa and Hull picture, we found that there is no fulltime commercial ethnic radio station in Ottawa, and there are dozens of ethnic communities here. We could easily have 40 languages here. If we had decided to provide maybe half an hour to some of them and also half an hour to some of them at 3 o'clock in the morning, we could easily have accommodated many more.
3138 The challenge here was to provide quality programming to as many groups as possible. We identified 19 such groups that we were confident that we will be able to provide proper service to.
3139 As a result, you will notice that only two program -- two or three languages here that have only two hours a week. But then if you look at it from another point of view, we have not given less than two hours a week to any language group, no matter how small they are and no matter what the affordability of that community is.
3140 We took advantage of the weekdays by giving the larger groups Monday to Friday, either one hour a day or two or three hours a day. I say three hours because the Chinese is the only one that is three hours, but there are two languages in there.
3141 We feel that with this very well thought out schedule, I think we have struck that balance.
3142 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: So the balance, if I understand you, is to assure enough time, two hours minimum --
3143 MR. RAY: Two hours plus it should be at the same time so there is predictability and people would remember what time.
3144 If there is a Dutch program on on the weekend, on Saturday, then the same program for two hours because the Dutch program -- the four hours a week, two hours on Saturday and the same time two hours on Sunday as well.
3145 So that makes it easier for the listeners to be able to tune in and remember.
3146 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: You say in your supplementary brief that you chose 19 groups initially. Does this mean that you intend to change that mix? I noted that on page -- I think it's page 45, but it is a comment you made to the effect that, yes, this is a challenge, that you have chosen to go for nine -- page 45.
3147 You have chosen 19 at this point, but that is an initial choice. Does this mean you expect to change that composition?
3148 MS RAY: Madam Chair, no, we don't intend to change that composition.
3149 What it is probably reflecting is that even though we have said that we represent 20 language groups, in essence it is more than 20 language groups that we are representing. Because when you look at the Arab language, it is spoken -- the Arab language is spoken by 22 countries in the Middle East; the Dutch language is spoken in five countries; the Caribbean language program covers people coming from 16 countries; the Spanish language, again here I have it covers six countries; the Hindustani language program will cover five countries, that is the South Asian; the Portuguese will cover four.
3150 So really we are catering to much more than 20 language groups. It is a much broader --
3151 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Yes, there is a difference between the 20 languages and the --
3152 MS RAY: The 19 --
3153 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: -- 19 groups.
3154 MS RAY: Yes.
3155 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: So it would be interesting to in fact see that breakdown of what groups would be served --
3156 MR. RAY: May I just add to that?
3157 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: -- within the language segments.
3158 MR. RAY: To answer your question as to the initially 19, of course we, as a promise of performance, will be providing service to a minimum of those number of language groups. But after we submitted the application, and especially during the intervention period, we were approached by a number of other language groups asking why we were not able to accommodate them. Some of them, especially the Iranian community, you will see there are dozens of letters from the Iranian community, and also the Romanian community. But we did not propose to serve Iranian and Romanian, but if ever we have the opportunity of accommodating without affecting the quality of service being provided, then we will try to do that, but our commitment right now is to the 19.
3159 It is also something I would like mention, that there are many ways to define quality time of the day. One of the factors that would decide that is also the economic reality. Larger groups provide revenue to cross-subsidize.
3160 For example, the programs in the morning drive time and the evening drive time will generate relatively much more revenue than the smaller groups and we will be able to subsidize them.
3161 Therefore, that is also one factor that made us allocate certain times to certain larger groups.
3162 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: So again, there is a business plan component to this that we can look at in terms of some of the questions I have on revenues where your choice has also been, to some extent, directed by where the revenues are coming from and the larger groups being able to support the overall business plan?
3163 MR. RAY: At least as far as the allocation of prime times are concerned, yes.
3164 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: In the language listing here as Caribbean, and I'm sure you heard yesterday that I asked this question, how you see Caribbean as one of the language groups and why should it be accepted as a third language. It is, we assume, English, but if you could explain that to me?
3165 MR. RAY: Well, the Caribbean people are in a distinct ethnic group of people. It is a distinct culture.
3166 While it so happens that their language is the same as the language of some mainstream programming, for example we have with us here Ewart Walters who is from the Caribbean community and I'm sure you would like to say a few words on that as to why should you be defined as a separate, well, language group.
3167 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: There is the group and then just -- I don't want to interrupt you, but the question also is a regulatory one in terms of English. Now if you start speaking to me in Patois then you may have made your point but, on the other hand, we would, in the final analysis, just want to come down to the question of whether or not that being an English language we would still have the same number of languages.
3168 But excuse me for interrupting you. Go ahead.
3169 MR. WALTERS: Madam Commissioner, I think the actual proper definition for what happens in the case of the Caribbean is that it is a cultural group rather than so much a third language group.
3170 But to explain the linguistic situation, there are something like 16 countries in the Caribbean that speak English, there is certainly one that speak Spanish, there are a number that speak Dutch, there are three at least who speak French. In addition to the French there is a component that you mentioned of Creole, which is peculiar to countries such as Haiti, Dominica, Martinique and St. Lucia.
3171 So that is the linguistic and cultural picture, but, you know, we are in fact a multicultural country here as much as we are a bilingual country and what I hope would be reflected is the aspect of multiculturalism here that reflects the Caribbean reality.
3172 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you. That is very helpful.
3173 My last point on this has to be a somewhat regulatory one. If, however, it is necessary to see the Caribbean component as English-language, would you still maintain the same number of languages served?
3174 MR. RAY: Absolutely.
3175 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you.
3176 In your supplementary brief and this afternoon you make a very strong point about the local programming, that the programming will be community-driven.
3177 You say on page 49 that:
"If licensed, Infinity will offer nothing less than that same level of effort and commitment to achieving excellence and quality to the 19 ethnic communities and 20 languages." (As read)
3178 Going on to say that:
"It will be high quality programming for, by and produced with the community." (As read)
3179 I have two questions, two or three questions on this point.
3180 To what degree will individuals or members of the communities be involved in the creation, production and on-air delivery of local programming?
3181 My second question is: Does your approach apply equally to all the groups, as you claim in your supplementary brief?
3182 MR. RAY: Yes. To answer your first question, there will be a significant participation of each community of each language group.
3183 As we said at the beginning of your questioning, that we have had extensive consultations with these communities and one of the components of our proposal that really appealed to them, and it is central to the kind of programming we want to present, is participation of the communities.
3184 With the help of the advisory council where each language group will be represented, we will be directed to the talents within those communities who have the ingredients of becoming a broadcaster but of course they are not broadcasters, we will provide the training in-house as well as -- which maybe we will come back to later on -- through Algonquin College that we have had an understanding with.
3185 That way we will be able to provide programming that is via the people and each language group will be served in that manner.
3186 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Each language group will then be involved in the creation and production and on their delivery of local programming directed at that particular group?
3187 MR. RAY: If you mean they will be doing all the productions in-house on --
3188 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Each language group?
3189 MR. RAY: Each language group. The facilities will be provided to them.
3190 In fact, somebody asked me a few days ago "Well, how will you have so many production booths, you know, 20 of them?" Actually you don't need 20 of them.
3191 I remember CKER radio had only one production room to produce some 17 languages and they were all scheduled. But, of course, we won't have one, we will have at least four production booths and that should be enough to give them the opportunity.
3192 MS RAY: I would like to clarify that, Madam Chair.
3193 The organizations that I have had meetings with, they would be assisting us in identifying the talent in their community that we would then help to train. That particular person, or two persons, would be doing -- involved in the production of the programming, not the entire group. It is one or two people identified in that particular language group that would be part of the production unit and owner presence.
3194 They would be evaluated by the organizations that have recommended them, by the community and by the advisory council that is in place for this purpose.
3195 MR. RAY: I would just like to add, Madam Commissioner, that it was very important for us to also clarify to all the organizations -- and this was one question we were asked by most of them, is: As far as the programming content and the format is concerned of each language group, would we be imposing our format on them or would they have an input?
3196 So here each one of them has the opportunity to advise us as to what is the programming format that they would prefer to have. This is very much in contrast to the other kind of ethnic radio stations where most of the programs are brokered out to ethnic producers.
3197 In other words, anybody who walks into the radio station and offers enough money, that the station would be happy with, he has a program and can do what he wants and may not necessarily reflect the interests and aspirations of the community being served.
3198 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: So just stepping back a bit -- and I note that you raised your training program and that was one of my questions as well -- to get a more practical picture of how it is going to work, a starting question would be: Currently in this community do you have the individuals you can recruit to get up and running and to put on -- from each of the groups and to put on the programming? That is the first step.
3199 Do you think that there are sufficient numbers of individuals in each of these areas to really -- with the broadcasting experience now, to move forward with the proposal?
3200 MS RAY: Yes, Madam Chair. I have had the opportunity to meet with a number of the groups, as I said earlier, and I met some wonderful voices in the community.
3201 In the Filipino community I met two very good voices; in the South Asian community, in the Haitian community -- in fact we have Max from the Haitian community sitting with us who will address that later on -- and the Italian community and the Vietnamese community, the Chinese community.
3202 I have already identified the talent that I would be recruiting in the future.
3203 So there is so much talent that has not been tapped and who can hardly wait to get on and they have some training. In fact, the Greek person that I propose to involve is already a trained broadcaster. She is a professional broadcaster. So I have been able to locate those people.
3204 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: In terms of then moving on and your training, how will your in-house training work specifically?
3205 MR. RAY: I think you asked me how the screening will work?
3206 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: In-house training.
3207 MR. RAY: Training, okay. Thank you.
3208 Once we have identified the individuals who will be trained by us -- and like Renu mentioned, many of them have the ingredients and the latent -- you know, the talents -- we would do the training in-house and of course we --
3209 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Just very quickly, how will you go about selecting the trainee?
3210 MR. RAY: Once those talents have been identified, including by the advisory council, we will have an audition and the audition process will allow us to choose those who are most appropriate in each language group.
3211 In my personal experience, that has never posed a problem, finding talents within each community.
3212 To go on to how we will be training, we will be training them in-house as well as institutionally.
3213 Let me first clarify that. The first phase of training will not be in-house because if you are fortunate enough to be licensed and the time line is such, say for example if you know by October that we are going to be licensed, we shall immediately get into motion and identify those talents.
3214 We already have an agreement or an understanding out with Algonquin College. You will see on the advisory council section there is also a letter from Algonquin College. It is I think -- the page numbers are not clear -- I think it's 196 perhaps, I'm not sure -- probably 197 -- Algonquin and it's written by a Don Crockford who is the coordinator of radio broadcasting.
3215 They have agreed to take these talents and give them hands-on training of 15 weeks, three hours every week for 15 weeks. This program is conducted during winter-time only, so the time will be quite a good coincidence to have them start this in the month of January or December perhaps. By the time they are finished the training, they will be ready to go on air.
3216 Once they come back on the training or maybe during the training itself at Algonquin, we will train them separately, specifically targeting each language group as to how they can improve broadcasting, announcing, you know, skills and writing skills in their own languages.
3217 This is something I have done in Edmonton as a broadcast trainer as well as in Toronto.
3218 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you for that. I would just like to go back to the role of the local content producer. Could you just elaborate for us again -- we are not talking about training now. We are talking about the actual creation and production of what appears on air -- that's my television -- what we hear on air.
3219 You indicate that Infinity staff would assist and offer guidance to local content producers. Could you elaborate on how that would work.
3220 MR. RAY: Yes, certainly. First of all, a critical factor in measuring the quality of a broadcasting service is the relevance of its programming to the local community that it proposes to serve. It is for that reason that we decided to work hand and glove with the 19 ethnic communities in 20 different languages rather than going the brokerage route.
3221 We will ensure that they are trained and that they understand how to compose those programs, whether they be news coverage of events or current affairs, you know, putting local talents on air. It is also our intention to make sure that the quality of the programming is maintained.
3222 I'm not sure if that answers the question.
3223 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: I think also what I am getting at is understanding the nature of the programming. From what I understand in schedule 5, there will be a mix of news, some music. Let's say we take an hour, the two hours dedicated to the Italian language or the Italian community, there will be a mix there of music, news. Am I correct?
3224 MR. RAY: Oh, yes.
3225 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Various breakdowns and that will be decided upon by the local content producer. It's my understanding that Infinity staff would then offer guidance. Obviously you are overall responsible for what's on air, but just in terms of that mix, how does it work?
3226 MS RAY: Madam Chair, what we have decided to do is to consult with each community before we decide what will be the content of the program for each community because it's different for each community.
3227 The Chinese community are more interested in the news and the music whereas the Somali community is more interested in the talk show and information. The South Asian community is more interested in the music. Another is interested in the local events.
3228 Each community's needs are different and they are at different stage of a culturation process because we have to look at which of the communities have been here longer, which are the newer communities, so the content will be decided in consultation with each language group.
3229 Then we will take into account what the producers, the local producers, views are and train him or her accordingly. That's how we propose to go about it.
3230 MR. RAY: I might as well add that the majority programming menu as a result will be local news, information, music, you know, local activities and events. Supplementing that, the local programming, will be the international news, especially news from back home and very reputable broadcast news organizations, as the Voice of America and the BBC, would come into play and they will give us the feed for those programs.
3231 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you. As you know, the new ethnic policy states that the Commission will expect licensees to report on the progress of local initiatives at their subsequent licence renewals and it would be helpful for licensees to indicate in their plans how they will evaluate their progress in producing local content.
3232 Could you describe in more detail what mechanisms you will have in place, you will establish, to evaluate your progress with respect to meeting your local content initiatives over the course of the licence term.
3233 MR. RAY: The mechanism that we thought would be most effective and you will be able to gage more accurately how we are doing would be through community responses, that will be channelled through the advisory council. Fortunately, we have a very good advisory council which will be led by Raj Rasalingam. In fact, Raj, why don't you shed some light on that.
3234 MR. RASALINGAM: Thank you, Neeti. Bonjour, mesdames et messieurs.
3235 The role of the advisory council is elaborated on page 200. The mandate and its objectives are clearly outlined there. However, in dealing with many cultural communities and the varied needs, certainly one has to be sensitive to the nuances of their needs.
3236 In terms of reflecting that in the programming, the role of the advisory council would be to provide input, but not to manage the operations of the radio stations. Essentially, I would liken it to the role of the windsock at the Ottawa airport guiding the pilot how to land the plane and the controllers being the operational people guiding the operations of the radio station.
3237 With respect to how we would provide input, I worked at many cultural communities. In certain communities the most effective manner would be to attend community meetings, for example, maybe at the Vietnamese community. It could be just at the temple where they have the religious day to get feedback and input through means of a questionnaire.
3238 In other communities it might be attending a community meeting that might be a better form of gauging input. In different communities it varies, but essentially the role of the advisory committee would be to suggest some programming to the Board of Directors as we have heard it, but not to filter the news.
3239 I think that's our role and I think as broadcasters the expertise is best left to them.
3240 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you. I had a series of questions on that coming up, but just one question to you perhaps, Mr. Ray, and you may want to also respond. I asked this question yesterday.
3241 With that mandate clearly laid out, this is not a decisional role in terms of broadcasting but an advisory one, yet one of the challenges of such an ethnic station is accommodating the needs of many, many groups. Obviously you have had to make a choice already.
3242 Do you expect any difficulty in terms of the demands not only of the groups that you represent on the advisory board, but also other ethnic groups coming forward and saying "Well, we are not being served". How do you see the advisory council handling that situation?
3243 MS BALDELLI: Thank you for the question. Presently I wear many hats, but I sit as a director of the Catholic Immigration Centre and the Ottawa-Carleton Immigrant Services Organization which are both organizations that deal with different cultural communities.
3244 It deals with the reflection of cultural communities that have come here and settled in Canada over a period of time. It also deals with cultural communities that are coming into Canada, whether they are on a temporary basis or on a more permanent basis.
3245 For example, two years ago Kosovo was very much on our mind. Ottawa-Carleton was host to -- and Hull was host to the Kosovos, but as a cultural community they chose to go back.
3246 I think I would also rely on my expertise gathered from my directorships on those boards of organizations to be a guide. Those organizations reflect collectively between them every cultural group that is represented in the nation's capital.
3247 MR. RAY: I would just like to add, Madam Commissioner, that this is a model that has worked very well. I have seen that working in Edmonton. You will hear me talking about Edmonton a number of times because I can't help it. That's my alma mater as far as learning broadcasting is concerned.
3248 The advisory council that was made initially in Edmonton was something very new. I think for Edmonton, just like for Ottawa, an ethnic radio station was something new. We saw that the advisory council was so active until today that motto is still being followed. I think CKER in my opinion is one of the best examples of a very successful ethnic radio station serving the communities well.
3249 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you, Mr. Ray. I have one more question in the programming area, a quick one in terms of news and spoken word and then perhaps we can take a short break before going on to talent development and some financial questions and technical questions.
3250 How much of your overall programming would be devoted to spoken word?
3251 MR. RAY: As we mentioned earlier, the challenge in answering that question is unlike a mainstream radio station, this radio station will consist of 19 or 20 different languages and then 20 different programs.
3252 Each program caters to a particular ethnic group and meets the specific needs of that group. For example, there are some groups that may not, you know, be much attracted by news. They want just music. There are other groups who would like to have more news from back home or international news or local news.
3253 It's difficult to gage that, whether it will be 30 per cent, 70 per cent, but I can tell you one thing. In certain programs music could be, you know, 80 per cent or more music. In certain other programs it could be only 50 per cent.
3254 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Overall, is the ethnic programming do you think music driven or is it spoken word driven?
3255 MR. RAY: It would be more music driven.
3256 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Music driven.
3257 MR. RAY: Yes.
3258 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: In terms of news which you mentioned in each of the components, are we talking about newscasts in English or in third language or a combination of both?
3259 MR. RAY: In many cases it will be third language only. For example, international news received from BBC will not be in English. It will be in the language of that community.
3260 The local news in certain programs could have a combination of English and the third language, especially languages that cater to communities that have integrated more or better than other communities, like the Dutch community or the German community.
3261 There could be English components in those news as well.
3262 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you. I think this is the point where we could take a break.
3263 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. We will take a ten-minute break and come back at ten to five.
3264 Nous reprendrons à cinq heures moins dix.
3265 MR. RAY: Thank you.
--- Upon recessing at 1640 / Suspension à 1640
--- Upon resuming at 1655 / Reprise à 1655
3266 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Alors nous poursuivons.
3267 La Conseillère Pennefather, s'il vous plaît.
3268 CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER: Merci, Madame la Présidente.
3269 Thank you, Madam Chair.
3270 My apologies. I wanted to touch on one other area in programming before we jump to talent development, and that is open line programming.
3271 You indicate in your application that local station-produced programming would include open line programming, and in the deficiency response letter you confirmed that you are aware of the Commission's policy regarding open line programming and described the measures that you would put in place to ensure that these policy's requirements are met.
3272 The actual plans for what kind of open line programming you are contemplating were not clear. Could you elaborate on what they are.
3273 MR. RAY: Yes, Madam Commissioner. The content of the open line programs would vary from issues to a news item, politics, civic matters, social issues and the like.
3274 We could also have an open line show that is open to anything that the audience is interested in talking about.
3275 MS RAY: I would like to add here, Madam Chair, that when I went out and met so many people, a lot of them expressed some interest in -- for example, the Somali community distinctly told me that they want to keep their community members informed about the laws of Canada because they are still relatively newer in comparison to some of the other immigrant populations that have settled in Ottawa.
3276 So their focus would have been more on informative kind of talk shows; about how to utilize the social service agencies available here; how to access the system over here, the mainstream system.
3277 The Caribbean people had a different concept of open line. They wanted to discuss issues amongst their community that were focusing on the inner problems of the community.
3278 Then the south Asian people wanted a different kind of open line show again, for example, on issues of parenting, or on issues of violence in the community.
3279 With each community it depends on what kind of topic they would choose.
3280 Some the more well integrated communities wanted talk shows on policy matters, on the politics of Canada. So they wanted to participate more in the mainstream issues.
3281 So that would vary. And I have to keep saying again and again that we will have to keep going back to the communities to consult with them as to what it is they are looking for.
3282 I am sorry to keep repeating this, but our whole idea is based not on an autocratic process but on a democratic process which will involve participation and decision-making from each community that we are involved in and proposing to serve.
3283 To my idea, this is a model way of working because it is truly a Canadian way of involving the participation of every language group. Right now a lot of them feel that they are marginalized by the system. They are not really accessing the mainstream system. But by bringing them out into the decision-making process, they would be empowered and they would be willing to be part and parcel of the Canadian mosaic.
3284 That is how the station is going to be a different station.
3285 In fact, I would really like this to be a model station on which other stations could follow in the rest of the country.
3286 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you.
3287 We will now go to Canadian Talent Development. My first question is regarding the $3,000 per year towards the CAEB's ethnic music catalogue initiative.
3288 Based upon a deficiency response, it appears that it is your intention to fund this initiative over the full seven-year licence term rather than the normal three-year requirement.
3289 Could you confirm that it is your intention to fund this initiative over the full licence term.
3290 MR. RAY: Yes.
3291 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: You describe this support as an important CTD commitment. Could you provide us with an update on this initiative?
3292 We had a discussion with Mr. Lombardi about this yesterday.
3293 What is your understanding of the status of the catalogue? Is it published? Is it available? How are the recordings listed? What is your comment on the initiative?
3294 MR. RAY: Madam Commissioner, we have not accessed the library yet. To tell you honestly, I was not sure if only broadcasters who are owners are able to access that library or everyone else.
3295 But to answer your question, no, we have not accessed that yet. I do know that it is growing, and it is something that is going to become more and more popular as all the local talents across Canada begin to realize that this is an outlet for them and they would like to contribute to it so that they will have the exposure.
3296 Also, with the help of the Internet -- I can download hundreds of songs from the Internet that my daughter taught me, from Napster, for example. In this case, I am sure there will be a time, especially when the library itself, the catalogue, has grown big enough, that stations across Canada could either subscribe to it, if that is the way it is going to be, or that it will be freely available.
3297 That is my answer.
3298 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Do you still see it as an important initiative?
3299 MR. RAY: Absolutely. I think it is an important initiative, and I can give you the reason why. This provides the opportunity to local talent across Canada to have their CDs made, their records made, and make them available to broadcast undertakings so that they get exposure.
3300 That incentive would create more Canadian talent and content.
3301 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Moving on to the Canadian World Beat Artist Fund initiative, you stated that the fund would be administered by radio station management to avoid incurring administrative overhead costs, which would affect the total amount of funding available for distribution to third parties.
3302 In reviewing the Infinity grant program, which is another initiative, we note that you are establishing in that case an independent jury for the grant program, composed of local members of the Ottawa/Hull performing arts community.
3303 I am now addressing the grant program initiative and the jury approach.
3304 My question is: Are there overhead administrative costs connected with this initiative?
3305 MR. RAY: No, there are no administrative costs, which means that if there is any administrative cost it does not come out of those amounts -- if that makes it clear.
3306 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: That is where the question is: that the funding in fact will go to the eligible third parties as planned.
3307 Awards under this program will be granted on a semi-annual basis. Are there any restrictions on how often a successful recipient can apply for assistance under this program?
3308 MS RAY: Well, there is not a restriction in place, but we would like to be open to giving other people a chance as well. So we would be sensitive to that.
3309 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Are there any third language requirements associated with this initiative?
3310 MS RAY: This program is meant mainly for the third language groups. This is for the ethnic language groups.
3311 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Are those requirements laid out at this point?
3312 MS RAY: Yes.
3313 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Would an individual or group of ethnic background awarded funding under your Canadian World Beat Artist Fund initiatives still be eligible to apply for direct financial assistance under the Infinity grant program?
3314 MS RAY: Yes.
3315 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: So one could do both.
3316 MS RAY: Yes.
3317 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: You say on page 73 of your supplementary brief that the talent development proposals, all of them, would be utilized in an equitable and inclusive fashion across the region's multicultural population.
3318 How will you accomplish this?
3319 MS RAY: That is not an easy task, Madam Chair. We would hope to publicize it on the radio shows extensively on every language program, on the World Beat program.
3320 We would give ample time so that people can apply, because we are sensitive to the fact that the third language communities do not readily or easily access the mainstream languages.
3321 We would advertise on the ethnic print media as well as on the radio, by word of mouth, and let all the organizations that we have been consulting with, advise them and let it go in their newsletters.
3322 That is one way that we would let the public know about it.
3323 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you.
3324 My next area of questions was to be the advisory council. We did go through that, but it raises another point which I would like to ask about the council and about your understanding of the services that you are providing in this community.
3325 We mention the region. We mention Ottawa. We talk about Ottawa/Hull.
3326 Are you addressing the market as Ottawa/Hull?
3327 MR. RAY: Absolutely.
3328 MS RAY: Very much so.
3329 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: If so, how would you describe your service to the francophone community, the French-speaking ethnic communities and French-speaking community?
3330 MR. RAY: Do you mean how you would take it to the Hull region as to how to inform the people?
3331 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: This is the Ottawa/Hull region.
3332 MR. RAY: Yes.
3333 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: There are francophone and anglophone members of this population, and inclusive of the ethnic minority groups as well there are French-speaking groups.
3334 In fact, you mention that the World Beat programming would be both spoken French and spoken English components. So you have in your own schedule addressed the French community.
3335 I was wondering how you saw this service serving the francophone population of the area since you see this as an Ottawa/Hull application.
3336 MR. RAY: Madam Commissioner, I must tell you that when we thought of Ottawa/Hull in 1997, the first time that we identified the gap and need for ethnic programming, there was one thing that always remained in our minds, that was etched in our minds, and that is that Ottawa is different from most other places in Canada in that the French component here is significant.
3337 It is also a challenge to incorporate French into an ethnic language programming except if we want to serve the Haitian community or the Somali community, who speak French.
3338 The main motivation behind having a French component to the world music programming was to be able to reach the French-speaking people, especially on the Hull side, because that is where most of the French-speaking people live. But it was also important to incorporate the French programming, because there are also ethnic communities who speak French. I think it is very important for them to have the programming, because it was not properly available.
3339 I must also tell you that in the advisory council -- and maybe if Raj has an opportunity, he could elaborate on that -- there will be members from the Hull side of Ottawa/Hull.
3340 We have with us Max Beauje, who is French speaking. I will ask Max to say a few words to elaborate on this matter of French.
3341 M. BEAUJE: Madame la Conseillère, Infinity Broadcasting servira de courroie de transmission à la vaillante communauté haïtienne, forte de 20 000 parlant français et créole. Il ne faut pas oublier non plus qu'il y a beaucoup d'Africains dans la région, n'est-ce pas, qui arrivent des pays francophones.
3342 Donc alors je pense que c'est une nécessité pour ces gens, par exemple, qui viennent d'ailleurs, des autres pays francophones, qui ne sont pas servis adéquatement dans la grande région de la Capitale nationale.
3343 De par mon expérience, ça fait quelques années depuis que j'évolue dans le domaine de la radiodiffusion au niveau des médias universitaires, Radio Carleton et la Radio de l'Université d'Ottawa, et on donne des services, mais les services offerts sont très, très limités. Nous comprenons bien qu'ils ont de leur côté des exigences à satisfaire. Infinity Broadcasting viendra compléter le travail en cours dans ces deux stations.
3344 Autre chose, cette nouvelle station de radiodiffusion offrira des émissions en français, et vous savez que les Haïtiens parlent le français et puis le créole, qui répondront aux attentes des gens du troisième âge de la communauté haïtienne, viscéralement attachés à leur alma mater.
3345 Infinity Broadcasting mettra à la disposition des jeunes Canadiens d'origine haïtienne du temps d'antenne qui projettera une image positive de leur culture de souche. Les jeunes talents de nos différentes communautés ne seront pas en -- je veux parler en fait des communautés, des francophones qui sont d'ailleurs, qui viennent d'Haïti, de l'Afrique francophone, et il y a la Guadeloupe également, il y a la Martinique. Il y a beaucoup de gens, n'est-ce pas, qui habitent cette région.
3346 Il faut ajouter aussi quelque chose. Le Canada -- Ottawa que nous avons aujourd'hui ce n'est pas cette ville d'Ottawa que nous avions il y a 20 ans. Ottawa a complètement changé. Alors naturellement nous avons du service, du service, par exemple, au niveau des médias parce que c'est pas le canal des médias qu'on peut vraiment être en contact avec d'autres cultures.
3347 Ces jeunes ils auront aussi une tribune pour se faire connaître, et par ricochet une opportunité pour eux de percer le marché du disque et des arts dans le futur. Je parle, par exemple, des jeunes talents qui arrivent des pays francophones.
3348 Infinity Broadcasting viendra également combler un vide dans le monde de la publicité car le marché est là. Il existe dans la communauté haïtienne une vingtaine de petites entreprises, de petits commerces en fait qui n'ont pas les reins assez solides pour annoncer sur les ondes des stations de radios commerciales traditionnelles. Ces petits commerces pourront se faire connaître à des coûts moindres.
3349 La musique n'a pas de frontières. Elle est un langage universel. Infinity Broadcasting sera le dispensateur de la musique du monde à l'heure de la globalisation et du village planétaire.
3350 Enfin, Infinity Broadcasting sera le canal par excellence d'éducation communautaire, de renseignements, d'émissions d'affaires publiques, d'entrevues, de nouvelles au service de la communauté haïtienne car, vous le savez comme moi, Haïti vit maintenant des moments très critiques et le peuple haïtien est un peuple qui est très attaché à son pays.
3351 Donc nous avons besoin d'un canal. Nous avons besoin d'un médium qui peut nous informer régulièrement de ce qui se passe chez nous en français et en créole.
3352 Donc alors pour finir, je dois dire que Infinity Broadcasting deviendra la radio mondiale à Ottawa.
3353 CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER: Merci, Monsieur Beauje.
3354 MR. RAY: In fact -- I am sorry to interrupt you.
3355 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Well, I was going to move onto another point, but it was just to confirm, which I heard you say, that I noted that there was no one from the francophone or from the Quebec community, but you say your plan is to add members to the Board.
3356 MR. RAY: Yes, Madam Commissioner. One of the proposals for the Advisory Committee is to get a better reflection of the unique nature of Ottawa/Hull, and the francophone community, whether they be ethnic or in the mainstream, is to incorporate people also from the outside of -- from Hull.
3357 We have identified communities which have been more predominant in the Hull area, for example the Portuguese community, the Haitian community and elements of the Spanish community.
3358 Also on the advisory committee I felt it was important an often overlooked area in our perspective is the uniqueness of the nature of Vanier, despite the merger of us into a big one city, which was beyond our control. But Vanier has a unique blend of ethnic communities, plus a unique francophone heritage, and I felt that representation needed to be reflected on the advisory panel as well.
3359 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you very much.
3360 I'm going to turn to Schedule --
3361 MS RAY: Just to add, Madam Chair, we have one of our members of the advisory council who lives in the Hull area and she is Souad Hanna, who is from the Lebanese community. But she is from the Hull area and as we move on in the future there would be more members that will be from the Hull region. We are sensitive to that.
3362 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you very much.
3363 We will move to the business plan now, Mr. Ray. If you will, look at Schedule 18 of your application.
3364 Essentially I wanted to look at the revenue predictions and again associate this with the communities served.
3365 Your application indicates that the largest ethnic communities that would be served by your proposed station would be those listeners speaking Chinese, Cantonese and Mandarin, Lebanese, Arabic, Italian and South Asian. We touched on this earlier when we talked about one of the reasons for the selection of hours and language groups -- languages and groups was economic.
3366 So I have a series of questions related to those choices and the results in terms of revenues and from advertisers.
3367 Let's look first at the Chinese community.
3368 Can you tell us how many hours of radio programming are currently available to Ottawa/Hull's Chinese community?
3369 MR. RAY: The information we have from Sharon --
3370 MS KAN: Recently, with the radio station, the Carleton U., I think it is one hour -- one to two hours per week.
3371 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Similarly, can you tell us how many hours of radio programming are currently available to the Ottawa/Hull Lebanese/Arabic community?
3372 MR. RAY: We unfortunately don't have the breakdown. I apologize for that.
3373 But we know that there is a total of 40 hours available. All the ethnic languages -- I mean ethnic programs combined. Forty hours total between the two stations.
3374 Most of the languages, including the South Asian language, the programs, they vary anywhere between a half an hour to two hours.
3375 I am just informed that the Arabic programming, there is 30 minutes of programming available on Ottawa U. station every week.
3376 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: And on the Italian community, do you know what is currently available?
3377 MS BALDELLI: I think it is about one hour maximum, combining --
3378 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: I'm talking radio. Just radio.
3379 MS BALDELLI: Yes, combining the two campus stations.
3380 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Similarly, the South Asian. What is your analysis of what is available currently to the South Asian community on radio?
3381 MR. RAY: To the best of our knowledge, it is about two hours, per week that is.
3382 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Can you explain, then, how you took into account the ethnic profile of the Ottawa/Hull market in determining which ethnic communities you would serve, considering the availability but also the profile of the community. How did that influence your decisions on which communities you would serve?
3383 MR. RAY: The decision was based first on the population size, the size of the business sector of that community. We did not take much into account the one hour or half an hour or two hours of programming that is available, because that kind of timespan is insignificant for most language communities. For example, if there are two hours for the South Asian community, who are about 19,000 in 1996 -- I'm sure people estimate it is more than 25,000 people now -- is totally inadequate.
3384 The other thing is the mandate of the campus stations are different and they serve a purpose and they will continue to do that and would ensure that we don't intentionally do anything that will impact them negatively.
3385 For example, and it is very important to understand what their role we recognize as being, is we will be a commercial station that will be fast moving. They can play a 20-minute piece by Ravi Shankar. We can't. That is an important component.
3386 In any case, the other components in our decision was the experience that we have -- I have in Edmonton. I also not only went to see what I have experienced there during the nine years, but I also consulted them very recently as to what are the programming contents now and the allocation of time. Also the revenues of various communities.
3387 I feel that there are a lot of similarities between Edmonton and Ottawa, the model that is there in Edmonton and the model that we want to follow.
3388 That is how we reached the conclusion as to what to allot to them.
3389 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: If I go on now to look more specifically at your revenue projections, there are, according to the 1996 Census, 11,625 residents of Ottawa/Hull who report Chinese as their home language. In Schedule 18 you note that in year one Chinese advertisers would generate $161,400 in projected advertising revenue.
3390 How was this estimate arrived at?
3391 MR. RAY: I would like to point out that the -- Hans, I'm not sure if you have your figures in front of you -- is 1996 figures for the Chinese is $21,885.
3392 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: How do you make that calculation?
3393 MR. RAY: That calculation has come from Stats Canada from the CD that was provided to Hans.
3394 Can you please --
3395 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: On what basis are you making that number, home language, origin?
3396 MR. RAY: No, by ethnic origin.
3397 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Ethnic origin.
3398 MR. RAY: Yes.
3399 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: My point was home language. So it is important we understand what base you are using.
3400 So if you could describe --
3401 MR. RAY: Are you talking about Mandarin or Cantonese?
3402 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: My introduction Chinese, Cantonese and Mandarin home language.
3403 But it is important for us to understand where your estimate comes from, so perhaps the best thing for you is to describe the numbers you used and how you came up with $161,000 for revenue.
3404 MR. JANSEN: Commissioner, if I could explain, it is in fact what we call a multi-factor assessment of opportunities. We look at a number of factors, including origin, home language, language spoken.
3405 But, in addition, we take into account our best knowledge of how loyal an ethnic business community is in the area of supporting a station. For instance, the Chinese community in other markets where there are ethnic stations has proven itself to be very loyal to its local ethnic stations. It is partly based on an understanding of the market dynamics.
3406 If you compare the Chinese community, for instance, with a Dutch community, the Dutch community is known for its rapid integration in the mainstream. Even though Dutch listeners are loyal to their ethnic station hours, they are not as loyal as the Chinese, in the sense that it is easier for a retailer in the Chinese community to reach an audience than it is for the Dutch retailer to reach the Dutch audience.
3407 So that is reflected both in the total dollars, the total annual revenue that is generated, but also in the revenue per hour. Because to a Chinese retailer, all other things being equal, the Chinese audience is worth more than it would be to a Dutch retailer.
3408 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: How did you arrive at the revenue per hour specifically?
3409 MR. JANSEN: The revenue per hour also is based on a multi-factor assessment that includes a number of variables, including the ones that I mentioned. But, in addition to that, we placed a lot of emphasis on the size of the market and the size of the audience.
3410 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: So specifically in terms of size of the Chinese-language radio advertising revenue market, what is available overall in this community? Do you have an assessment of that?
3411 MR. JANSEN: That is not the way it was developed.
3412 Maybe I can summarize how it was developed.
3413 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: I would appreciate that.
3414 MR. JANSEN: Bay Consulting Group was asked to look at all the major indicators and the major determinants of market size. So we looked at the total market size, the dynamics of the market, the size of the ethnic communities in the three areas that I just mentioned, origin, language spoken at home, and the third one.
3415 We looked at the aggregate AM and FM sales in this market and we did what we call a top-down approach to market estimating. We developed, on the basis of all the factors that we assessed, a best estimate of what a station -- a new ethnic station in that market could achieve, knowing that the current market in Ottawa/Hull as a whole is about 47 to 48 million this year.
3416 We looked at what ethnic stations can do in other markets to have a benchmark. For instance, in Toronto the ethnic radio stations have effectively added $14 million to the size of the overall market. So $14 million more are available for programming in the radio industry in Toronto as a result of ethnic stations being there. So the ethnic stations are complementary.
3417 In the case of Ottawa, it is a new situation. There are no ethnic stations here. But it is still possible to develop a realistic estimate of what target revenues would be realistic for this new station.
3418 In addition to that, the clients themselves do a bottom-up analysis. They look at the avails within the programming, the likely sell-out ratio, the cost per spot, and by summation they can develop an estimate of what is realistic in terms of the availabilities and the sell-outs and the cost per spot.
3419 If those two numbers are close you know that you are about right. So it is more an aggregate approach than a detailed approach by language group, although that --
3420 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: On the other hand, I have chosen to look at the Chinese, Arabic, Italian, Hindi revenue projections because, as we discussed earlier, one of the rationale proposed by Mr. Ray for the amount of programming and the positioning of that programming to those language groups was revenue potential.
3421 So it is important we understand the basis on which you are assuming that revenue potential, particularly for those communities because they count heavily in terms of the expectations.
3422 So our question was: In the case, for example, of the Arabic community, we are looking at generating $96,840 in year one, I believe.
3423 Again, you use the same method to arrive at that projection and do you have an idea of the amount of Arabic-language radio advertising revenue that is available now in the Ottawa/Hull market as a whole?
3424 MR. JANSEN: By definition this has to be an estimate, Commissioner, because the market doesn't exist. So Infinity Broadcasting is expected to develop the market.
3425 For that reason -- on that basis the aggregate figure of $1.1 million is far more accurate, accurate statistically, than the broken down figures.
3426 So it is more an art than a science. We take a look at all the factors, but we develop realistic targets that in the aggregate we believe are correct. There might be a greater standard deviation in the elements of that.
3427 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: So again, the basis for saying that the advertising in the Italian community would generate $107,600 in projected revenue, you are saying to us that that is an estimate based on all these various factors, but you say there again is it a market that doesn't exist and has to be built?
3428 MR. JANSEN: Yes.
3429 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: I find that surprising.
3430 MR. JANSEN: Yes. All of these markets do not exist right now, but the potential exists in Ottawa. So we are very confident that that $1.1 million potential can be realized in year one on the basis of what is happening in other markets, our knowledge of this market, and our knowledge of the fact that the market is $47 million in total.
3431 Any market in Canada that is $47 million or more in total can support an ethnic station if it has the kind of ethnic composition of communities that Ottawa has. It is axiomatic.
3432 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: One last general question on that.
3433 With an amount for the South Asian community in year one of $86,080, which you are projecting, which has Hindi as the home language -- and again we are discussing that in the broad sense for the South Asian community -- again you are saying that that is being built from scratch and on what basis are we to understand that that is the amount of money we can rely on in terms of revenue projection?
3434 I just want to be sure I totally understand. Because for a number of reasons, the business plan and then the effect that has had on the program schedule and the expectations.
3435 My other question is if it's to be built, where is going to come from?
3436 MR. JANSEN: Okay. In general I would like to stress that even if one of these component elements are wrong by more than 30 per cent, the total number will likely not be wrong by more than 5 or 6 per cent. In other words, that's just the reality of this kind of market where you have a lot of sub-segments.
3437 I would like to stress that you can be confident that the potential is there, that the station will do $1 million in year one even if there is some variation in the sub-segments. The success of the station will not depend on every one of these targets being reached.
3438 The other thing that I should mention is that already a number of businesses have committed to advertise on the station, especially out of the Southeast Asian community. A number of businesses have committed -- in this case the total list adds up to 465,000.
3439 That's quite unusual. In the ethnic community businesses are willing to commit these dollars. We have never seen that in the applications for English language stations. You never have a list of advertisers that say yes, I will advertise on this station.
3440 If you already have a commitment of $465,000 without even having fielded a sales force, you can be very comfortable that a station can do at least a million dollars in year one.
3441 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: In your 9.1 financial breakdown I notice that you have some national advertising. Can you tell us where that's coming from?
3442 MR. JANSEN: That is a ratio that is based on the experience of the ethnic radio broadcasting industry as a whole. In other words, you know that in a market where there isn't yet a station you will attract some national advertisers.
3443 I have here some advertisers that we know, the names of advertisers that we know are very interested in the ethnic communities and reaching the ethnic communities and haven't been able to buy time in Ottawa.
3444 These advertisers include the Bell, Molson, Mazda, Loblaws, Cadbury's, Honda, Ford, Bank of Nova Scotia, all the banks in fact, Kentucky Fried Chicken, BMW. In other words, if you have a vehicle, these advertisers will tend to come to you and advertise, but a vehicle hasn't existed to date in Ottawa.
3445 MR. RAY: May I add to that, Madam Commissioner, that in my experience in Toronto, we had a Radio India program which was 61 hours per week. We had a number of national advertisers. That proportion sounds very accurate -- very reasonable to me because we had Bell Canada, we had Lufthansa, Air Canada, No Frills and Loblaws.
3446 Now, I have spoken to the agencies for Bell Canada, Air Canada and No Frills. I just ran it by them that we are proposing this station in Ottawa and they said "We will be interested. Once you are on air, once you are licensed, do let us know".
3447 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you very much. I have another couple of questions on the business plan. There are 11 applicants competing for a new FM licence to serve Ottawa/Hull for English, for French language, two ethnic, one native.
3448 What would be the impact on your business plan if the Commission were to approve one or more of the applications of an English language and/or French language FM?
3449 MR. RAY: To the best of my knowledge, there would be no impact, no negative impact.
3450 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: What would be the impact on your business plan if the Commission were to approve one or more of the other applications for an ethnic or native FM station?
3451 MR. RAY: As for the native, it will have no negative effect on us. As far as licensing another ethnic radio station is concerned, I would put it this way. It will not be good for us. It will certainly make life a bit difficult. I would not recommend personally licensing two ethnic radio stations for this market.
3452 I haven't seen any such example in any other similar size city, but I will tell you something else. With the kind of programming that we are confident of producing and the kind of cooperation that we have generated between us and the local communities and the kind of proposal we have, really I wouldn't say that we would not survive if there is another ethnic radio station in Ottawa.
3453 MR. JANSEN: Commissioner, the Bay Consulting Group believe that both would survive, that the market and the aggregate is sufficiently large to do it. It's also important to remember that ethnic radio is very much driven by the local sales force.
3454 You asked the question about national. You know that in ethnic radio the percentage of national sales is much lower, for instance, than it is in English language radio. National is not really a determinant of the success of the station. It's heavily local.
3455 Local buyers do not really buy by the book similar to what national advertisers do. They respond to presentations by the sales force. It is easier to effect and to help increase the size of the market overall than it is with an English language station. That's why we are confident that both would survive.
3456 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you very much. As you can see, I unfolded the technical map so it's some technical questions which will follow.
3457 Frequency 89.9, two questions about your proposed use of this frequency essentially. I would like you to tell us why you chose 89.9 firstly. I would like you to tell us too how you propose that your application is the best technical use of this particular frequency in light of its particular ramifications and its -- after all Class C, it's a very strong frequency. Why is your technical approach the best.
3458 Thirdly, why is your programming approach appropriate to the 89.9 frequency?
3459 MR. RAY: Madam Commissioner, when we looked at the frequencies that are available, we decided that this is the most appropriate frequency for us and would most adequately serve the needs of the third language communities, the ethnic communities of the Greater Ottawa area and Hull area as well as the areas that are on the fringes of the .5 millivolt.
3460 For example, Kemptville, as far as Merrickville. I have known of a significant number of European settlers who obviously moved to the Ottawa/Hull area much earlier than the more recent immigrants did, the Dutch language, German and a few other European languages that are not coming to my mind.
3461 We would not be able to serve them properly first of all unless we have the 89.9. The other thing is that the main Ottawa and Hull regions, if we were to cover the entire Greater Ottawa and Hull region within the three millivolt, the primary coverage area, we can't do that unless we have the 89.9.
3462 The other thing also which I would like to mention is it is a depleting resource. We are almost out of good frequencies now. Most of the C Class frequencies, or all of them in Ottawa, have been taken by mainstream radio stations.
3463 Also to put it in perspective, each radio station, current radio station in Ottawa, if you divide that by the total population of Ottawa, each one has a share of between 60,000 and 70,000 people. We are intending to and we will be if we are licensed serving close to 400,000 people who are spread all over this area. It may be more sparse in the outlying areas but they are still there.
3464 It is as important for the ethnic communities to access the mainstream channel as powerful as anyone else has to be able to properly serve them. It's a matter of equity too.
3465 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: You just mentioned a number. I noticed that you used it in your comments this afternoon, the 400,000 number. Where did you get that number?
3466 MR. RAY: Well, the number if you will notice in 1996 is approximately 360,000 and 400,000 in year 2001 and 2002 are quite similar.
3467 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Is that ethnic origin?
3468 MR. RAY: By ethnic origin.
3469 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Language used, home language. What's the basis?
3470 MR. RAY: By ethnic origin to the best of my knowledge. I think Hans is confirming that.
3471 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Is that it?
3472 MS RAY: And if you calculate that from 1996 to now with the increase of immigration, with 88,000 people coming in, if you add that you will reach 400,000.
3473 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: In looking at the frequency situation, other than the frequencies that are proposed at this hearing, are you aware of any other FM frequency, other than the ones proposed at this hearing that would be of interest?
3474 MR. RAY: There are other frequencies available, and I will invite our very well-read and well-known engineering consultant, Mr. Pierre Labarre, to talk about that.
3475 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: And you will note that I did say other than the four frequencies proposed at this hearing.
3476 MR. RAY: My apologies. I didn't realize that. I will retrieve my answer and pass it on to Mr. Labarre.
3477 MR. LABARRE: You over-committed me there for a minute.
3478 You are asking me if there are other frequencies than the four that are here.
3479 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Yes.
3480 MR. LABARRE: To start with, one of the four that are here, which is the one that was opted out, I would be very fearful to file for an application on that until the new regulations come out from Industry Canada as to third adjacencies.
3481 It so happens that in reviewing all these frequencies, I have found one that is not very strong that is a Class A that might be useful as a Class A, but not as a Class C1.
3482 You did ask a question earlier that was not quite answered as to why don't we use -- Renu didn't quite word it that way, but she insinuated to the fact that maybe this frequency should be used at a higher power.
3483 I am saying, to start with, that we are using at the C1 level, which means more than a B level, and that we are using it with a maximum power of 18 kilowatts. So the 3,200 watts is misleading, because it is the average power.
3484 We are aiming the 18,000 watts mostly towards Ottawa, because that is the way the antenna is built. We are using Global Television's antenna on Channel 6. The reason for this is that there is a rule -- which all the other applicants on this frequency seem to have put by the wayside -- which limits the ratio of the FM of a certain channel to the television signal so as not to affect the television signal. We are the only application at this hearing that meets that rule.
3485 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you, Mr. Labarre.
3486 One last question, Mr. Ray.
3487 Did you consider an AM option?
3488 MR. RAY: Honestly, no. I am told that there are AM frequencies that could be available. Do you want me to tell you why?
3489 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Yes, I do.
3490 MR. RAY: First of all, an AM proposition would be economically not as viable. It would be very expensive buying a few acres of land and putting, I don't know, maybe nine to twelve towers. That is one thing.
3491 The other thing is that the quality of the AM transmission, I would personally say that it is not close to as good as the FM frequency. For all you know, in the foreseeable future there will be one ethnic station -- I hope one ethnic station -- and it should be the best frequency. That is the only opportunity we have to serve the 400,000 strong ethnic community of Ottawa.
3492 The FM frequency, and the one that we have chosen, provides the best option.
3493 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you very much, Mr. Ray, Ms Ray and all your colleagues, for your patience with our questions.
3494 As you know, I will turn you now to Madam Chair. There may be other questions from colleagues and counsel, and then we will come back to you for a last three-minute wrap-up.
3495 Thank you.
3496 MR. RAY: Thank you, Commissioner Pennefather.
3497 THE CHAIRPERSON: Unfortunately, Mr. Labarre obliterated my home town with his seal on the map.
3498 MR. LABARRE: Did I put a label on top of it?
3499 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
3500 MR. LABARRE: What label is it?
3501 THE CHAIRPERSON: It is your engineer's seal. It is on my home town.
3502 MR. LABARRE: Sorry.
3503 THE CHAIRPERSON: You were here when I was being teased about whether coverage reached my home town?
3504 MR. LABARRE: No.
3505 THE CHAIRPERSON: Voilà. Madam Noël, please.
3506 COMMISSIONER NOËL: I am not sure I understood your answer to one of Commissioner Pennefather's last questions about the 400,000 ethnic Canadians living in the Ottawa/Hull area, which is mentioned at page 4 of your oral presentation, or the 33 per cent that you mention on page 1.
3507 I am trying to reconcile that with figures from Statistics Canada, and I cannot see that the numbers have doubled in the last five years.
3508 Could you explain to me on what basis you come up with 400,000 people, as Census figures from 1996 talk of 161,000 immigrants.
3509 If you look at different figures that come up in the Census of 1996, you have home language, French, English and other, and in a total of a million people, you have 101,865 who have "other" as their home language. If you go to mother tongue the figure gets up to 152,250, which is roughly 15 per cent. It is roughly 15 per cent for mother tongue, 16 per cent for immigration.
3510 I don't understand how you get to 33 per cent in your presentation. I really don't understand.
3511 If we look at updated figures from Canadian Demographics -- those are 2001 figures -- for home language the proportion didn't vary from the 1996 figures.
3512 So I don't understand how you can make it from 16 to 33 per cent in five years, or from a figure of roughly 161,000 to 400,000 in the same period.
3513 MR. RAY: First of all, we are working with numbers based on different criteria. Your numbers are right, and our numbers are also right.
3514 When you said 160,000 or so immigrants, not all ethnic Ottawans or those living in Hull are immigrants. They could be first generation, those who are born here.
3515 The other thing to keep in mind is that when you look at the population figure by language, it will not give you the total number of ethnic people, people of ethnic origin. There will be thousands of south Asians maybe who are born here, and their first language happens to be English. But it doesn't mean that they do not understand Punjabi or Hindustani. Those numbers could be quite misleading.
3516 I would like to stress here that the numbers we have are from Stats Canada -- and Hans will confirm that.
3517 I also want to make sure that we have another perspective here as well. The number of people speaking a language, for example, Chinese, it could be a lot more than what has been reported.
3518 Maybe I will ask Sharon to shed some light on that.
3519 MS KAN: As I am a service agency, we do our projection based on immigrants. Of course we serve immigrants, and it is very important to us.
3520 As far as I understand, Census statistics are quite accurate in trying to track down immigrants according to their ethnic origin. In other words, they have put in a section of the questionnaire asking where you were born outside Canada. It wasn't allowed before, but now it is.
3521 So I believe the Census in 1996 can be quite accurate. There are still some discrepancies, depending on how well they implement the survey policy. They are improving it, and they have been asking agencies like us to help them, to help the client identify themselves.
3522 There is always a discrepancy, but I would tell you that it is getting very accurate in the 1996 Census.
3523 MR. RAY: Let me also ask Hans, who has received the numbers.
3524 MR. JANSEN: Commissioner, maybe I can reassure you that the figures overall are a best estimate of what the potential of the ethnic market is.
3525 To give you some example, the Dutch ethnic origin population is 23,595; the German is 65,240; east and southeast Asian, 36,890; Chinese, 21,885.
3526 So you see that these numbers are significantly larger than the language spoken at home. I believe you should see that number of 400,000 --
3527 COMMISSIONER NOËL: I also cited figures for mother tongue.
3528 MR. JANSEN: Yes. And mother tongue, of course, is much lower as well.
3529 I believe you should see that figure of 400,000 as an aggregate figure, a best estimate of what the next Census will indicate is the ethnic market in Ottawa/Hull.
3530 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Thank you.
3531 MS KAN: Also, can I add that a lot of immigrants who are born in Canada will identify themselves as Canadian. With Statistics Canada we are trying to ask us to help our clients to update that.
3532 MR. RAY: Just a wrap-up, Madam Commissioner: the print-out we have here is from StatsCan, and this is based on ethnic origin. So you could be speaking something else, or your home language could be whatever, but this is strictly by ethnic origin, which has a much wider definition of the ethnic population.
3533 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Thank you.
3534 Thank you, Madam Chair.
3535 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Demers.
3536 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Thank you, Madam Chair.
3537 Mr. Ray, Mr. Jansen spoke about the annex to your oral presentation, and I would like to know more about that.
3538 As indicated, I think by Mr. Jansen, usually we don't have such things. So I would like to know what I can do with it; in other words, where that half a million dollars that you say people have pre-bookings on your station. Could you explain to me what I can deduct from that?
3539 MR. JANSEN: Commissioner, the best way to see this sheet is as an indicator of comfort to us and to you. It is very unusual for a new applicant to already have a list of advertisers that have indicated to the applicant that they are prepared to advertiser on this station.
3540 Of a target for year one of $1.1 million, you more or less already have over $400,000 in the bag even before the station has been licensed. As an operator -- and I am not the operator. But as an operator, that would give me a great deal of comfort that the target of $1.1 million could be achieved.
3541 All of this is before a sales efforts has been launched, before a sales manager has been appointed, and before anybody has knocked on any doors in the community.
3542 MR. RAY: If I may add to that, besides the fact that it shows great enthusiasm and also reflects the feelings of the business community as to how starved they are of a channel that will get their messages across to the ethnic communities, the larger figures that you see in here, it has been clarified to us that they are for advertisements in a number of language programmings.
3543 For example, the Claridge Homes is one of the best-known builders in Ottawa/Hull. He said: Look, if you are licensed, I would like to advertise in most of the major languages that you are proposing.
3544 It is the same thing with Akran Network. It is a fairly new software and computer network company. They were very excited. They said: Well, this is the easiest way for us to get across to so many different ethnic communities.
3545 Therefore, this is an indicator that should indeed make us all feel very comfortable.
3546 MS BALDELLI: If I may add my own personal experience, I do teach Italian to adults, along with being the director of the Italian school for 300 children. With regard to the adults -- and I teach two or three nights a week, so it has been plenty for the last number of years.
3547 The students are lawyers, many lawyers, many high tech employees and many business people. They don't have a heritage of Italian, but they want to learn Italian. That is because they can't wait to get clients and that they can communicate. A little bit is a lot for them.
3548 Now with the idea -- and I have spoken to them with regard to this project. They can't believe it.
3549 They think they are going to be in heaven if this licence is given to Infinity because it will give them, the business people, the high tech employees, in particular that I am referring too, and lawyers -- and that's because I am in that profession myself full time.
3550 And so the Italian businesses particularly, Nicastro's -- you have letters from them, they are the older business here from Italy, and maybe you have shopped at their store -- they can't wait. They were ectatic when they heard about the project.
3551 So I think that there is reassurance of that feeling, as I said earlier, the word, the keyword "pride" in it, and they are willing to support it, of course, looking forward to it.
3552 MR. JANSEN: Commissioner, if I may.
3553 It's always a bit of a surprise to us when we talk to potential advertisers if they say, "This kind of station is badly needed. Call me back or pencil me in for $30,000 or $40,000 of advertising a year". It has happened in the last two feasibility studies we have done for ethnic stations. It has never happened to us when we did feasibility studies for English stations, for instance. The response always is, "Oh, yes, come back to us when you are on the air and we will see".
3554 In other words, this list is purely a quantitative list. It's simply an indicator of potential and pent-up demand, and that's how we see it. There clearly is pent-up demand in this market and there is a support for that.
3555 MR. RAY: To wrap up, it is an indicator that this will be a booming place if Infinity is licensed.
3556 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: So you have in that list my good Indian restaurant, so for example, Haveli has $12 000 a year. Are they under contract with you to spend that $12,000?
3557 MR. RAY: No one has a contract with us yet. These are commitments or pledges.
3558 MR. JANSEN: There can be no contract because we cannot commit that we can deliver because you will decide who will get a licence. So it would be premature to sign contracts.
3559 MS RAY: These letters have been filed with the Commission. They are there in the total number of letters that we have received. They have been filed saying that, "In the event that Infinity will be licensed, we hope to be able to project this much out of our annual budget towards Infinity". That is how they are worded. So they are not contracts as yet.
3560 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: I was trying to find some of these businesses in the Hull area. Are there any there that are businesses in Hull, as far as you know?
3561 MR. RAY: My answer will be I do not know all the businesses exactly where they are situated, but I know many ethnic businesses, some of them could be -- I am not sure if the Dollar Store has one in Hull as well.
3562 M. BEAUJE: Je sais qu'il y a beaucoup d'entreprises portugaises dans la région de Hull. Il y a également beaucoup d'Italiens, n'est-ce pas qui vivent --
3563 CONSEILLER DEMERS: Ma question se rapporte à ce document-ci.
3564 MR. RAY: We have identified one, Handa Travel, and Ewart will probably know better because he is the publisher of a widely read newspaper called the Spectrum.
3565 MS RAY: This is just a sample of what will be there on the radio once we are licensed. In the future when we are licensed, we will make sure that we have as many businesses from all over the Ottawa/Hull area advertising with us. This was done in a very short period of time.
3566 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: I am sure it was. My concern is to know what I can deduct from that document since we don't see very often. So this why --
3567 MR. RAY: I would -- sorry.
3568 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: -- I am asking the question.
3569 MR. RAY: What you can deduct is that our estimations are very conservative in their application. We are likely to exceed the projections and we should not have any problem whatsoever making this standalone radio station viable.
3570 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: I have one other question.
3571 Madame Ray, you have interviewed 35, I think, groups. Were any of these groups from the Hull area?
3572 MS RAY: The Arab community, the Portuguese community are in the Hull region and, as I say, I often met a lot of these groups at the Catholic Immigration Centre where I held my meetings. So they were coming from all of the Ottawa/Hull area and I am not very sure how many of them came from the Hull region, but if I had to sit down and look at it, I am sure many of them were living in the Hull region.
3573 MR. RASALINGAM: Commissioner, if I may jump in there, even in terms of the Advisory Council. What is up in the pattern with a lot of the cultural communities is that though they have addresses based in Ottawa, they often represent membership here. In fact, we have this Ottawa Sikh community which has a large population here on this side of the river as well. They maintain the Ottawa offices for purposes of the federal government doing business with them.
3574 MR. WALTERS: Commissioner, it is my certain knowledge that the multicultural communities of the National Capital Region are purely widely dispersed throughout not only Ottawa, Nepean and Gloucester, but also Hull, Aylmer and Gatineau.
3575 MR. HUNDAL: If I can add about, as Raj just mentioned, Ottawa Sikh Society.
3576 There is only one Sikh Society for the whole region, that is in all the cities now, it is Ottawa plus Hull, and all the residents who live in Hull also come to Ottawa like on events and on all the weekends.
3577 There are also -- I'm sure there is one applicant who even signed the letter of support -- he lives in Hull -- which I am sure of. That is what the representation can be from the Sikh community.
3578 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Thank you.
3579 Thank you, Madam Chair.
3580 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Ray, I have one question. I find it puzzling that your 9.1 financial information, which is your proforma statement of revenues and expenses, looks quite a bit the same as any mainstream station in that it has -- other than the fact that it is heavily weighted to local time sales and then it has, under operating expenses, a substantial sum for sales and promotion.
3581 Then you also have a detailed form from which Commissioner Pennefather was working, which indicates, as an example, annual revenue per group, per ethnic group. So the largest is the Chinese that would generate $161,400 in year one and increasing.
3582 You have discussed with Commissioner Pennefather how you would train people and choose them from certain groups, et cetera, and dismiss quite summarily the brokerage idea. But there are many ways of getting revenues for an ethnic station and I find it -- I would like you to explain to me whether it is going to be -- the sales, and so on, is going to be done as an ordinary mainstream station.
3583 The reason I am asking that is when, even in year one $1.1 million will be generated in local sales, I have difficulty thinking that an employee of yours, or two or three, will be able to generate revenue from Chinese stores, which will be necessary eventually, you can't have someone who will be familiar with and will speak these languages and will be able to interest local businesses.
3584 So is that the way you are going to operate, like a mainstream station? There is a margin between brokerage and the other means of generating money from local businesses of a culture that your employees can't possibly know them all intimately or speak their language. How are you going to do that?
3585 MR. RAY: Madam Chair, it will be done in two ways.
3586 There will be a sales staff, plus the community producers would also be selling. So, for example, the Chinese community -- and we have a Chinese producer -- it is obvious that he would know the Chinese community business sector well as well and he will be selling to that -- or helping to sell to that community.
3587 THE CHAIRPERSON: What kind of financial arrangement? Because you dismiss brokerage so summarily I was taken aback.
3588 There are various forms of that. When you say the producer will, that is because the producer will get a block of time, he will generate the advertising in it and you will get a share of it under a contract of some sort.
3589 Because the producer is not a salesperson that you will employ, it will have to be --
3590 So I want you to -- I was taken aback because there are varied forms of -- not crude brokerage perhaps, you dismiss it summarily as anybody walks in, which appeared to be what your view was of how other stations, ethnic stations behave. Anybody walks in that can pay a high price for half an hour, there they are.
3591 There are other ways of doing that and I suspect this is what you are describing, where the producer will get some time to produce programming and he or she will generate the advertising.
3592 Is that going to be the case?
3593 MR. RAY: Madam Chair, let me first clarify something to the Commission, and that is: We are not going to have any volunteers and those who are --
3594 THE CHAIRPERSON: I'm not talking about volunteers, I am talking about a producer is a businessman, right, who is going to produce programming in a certain language that will then be aired on your antenna. I am curious as to how from there you have a number of hours, let's say 15 hours in Mandarin and Cantonese, how you go from there -- I suspect you may not speak Mandarin and maybe your salesperson won't either -- how you go from there to get the $161,400 in the first year and eventually down the line to generate $1.1 million.
3595 I'm not talking about raw materials. I am talking about the business. How is the money going to be generated from the local community to that extent in so many cultures and languages from small local businesses in many cases?
3596 MR. RAY: I want to first clarify the reason I began to talk about the volunteers is because you did mention that some persons, Chinese for example, will get a block of time and then sell. I just want to clarify this.
3597 THE CHAIRPERSON: I assume that in brokerage one purchases it and then you as a broadcaster get the money and hopefully you have an arrangement that they will abide by the broadcasting rules which again is difficult because you are not going to understand maybe Mandarin and maybe you won't have any staff that does.
3598 How are you going to do all this?
3599 MR. RAY: That will be done by sharing the revenue. A language program producer who goes out to sell, if he brings the revenue, it will be shared between the radio station and the salesperson or the producer.
3600 Also, I want to once again refer back to a model and the model that I am most comfortable with is CKER radio has exactly -- has always had exactly the same model. They do not broker any time out. They have never brokered time out. To the best of my --
3601 THE CHAIRPERSON: There is some argument that it is a form of brokerage, but I understand what it is you are talking about. I presume that some of these larger -- you will reserve some -- the station will share the revenues generated and will also reserve some time in the block of the producers, time to insert some larger advertisers that you may have generated the revenue for.
3602 MR. RAY: That is correct. The station will have its own staff as well. For example, the calls that come in directly to the station and there's direct sales, of course those will also be incorporated in those ethnic programming.
3603 THE CHAIRPERSON: Now, you know with ethnic stations the Commission often has some problems of the quality -- well, the generation of complaints, how are you going to ensure that those producers abide by broadcasting rules and don't generate complaints when it will be in various languages.
3604 What are your plans in that, especially with open line programming because it will be difficult for your staff to monitor all these different languages.
3605 MR. RAY: Well, we are going to handle that in a few ways. One is that we will have a treating in place where we will be inviting people from various backgrounds. Also, Commissioners from the CRTC would be invited to workshops to our producers.
3606 Neeti will be providing training in the manual that our station will develop which will enumerate what are the dos and the don'ts of the station with respect to particularly those aspects that the Commission is concerned with. That will be one way of monitoring.
3607 The other is the advisory council that we have put into place that will be looking at complaints from the community. The advisory council will be meeting actively with the local organizations because it consists of representatives of the organizations. They will be meeting on a quarterly basis to discuss all the complaints.
3608 These are the three ways in which we will actively try to evaluate ourselves.
3609 THE CHAIRPERSON: Once you have trained people about the dos and don'ts, how do you make sure they stick with them?
3610 MR. RAY: Well, in our experience and also in experience in Toronto, we had developed a manual that every announcer had to acknowledge that he or she has read and commit to abiding by it. If somebody does not abide by it, if you have problems, of course the person will be taken off air.
3611 The other thing is that -- I'm not sure if we are talking about abusive comments as well on air. We will have ten seconds delay from day one. That will ensure that any abusive comments do not go on air.
3612 THE CHAIRPERSON: This would be the producer's responsibility to control the incoming calls.
3613 MR. RAY: Yes, it will be and the manual will clearly indicate what route to follow, what procedure to follow. That manual will also contain the CRTC regulations in this regard.
3614 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
3615 Commissioner Cardozo.
3616 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you, Madam Chair. Just a couple of comments.
3617 One is kind of a marketing question, how you would raise your profile. You would be a new player. You would be bringing in a new concept to the market. You talked a lot about the feedback you had from the people you talked to, but I am thinking on a more macro scale.
3618 You haven't talked about how you are going to promote your presence in the market to listeners and to advertisers. Would you look at creating special events like picnics or shows or would you be going to existing events?
3619 As you know, this region is a region of festivals. There's a festival just about every week of the room, so there isn't much room for you to create a new festival.
3620 What would you do to create an awareness and I guess an excitement about your service that would then bring the listeners and the advertisers?
3621 MR. RAY: Well, Mr. Commissioner, we will be doing promotion in a number of ways. For example, before we go on air we will have promotions on, for example, television and the newspaper and billboards.
3622 I suppose the most effective in our opinion will be, because it is an ethnic radio station and has a, you know, affinity with the communities that, for example, we went to dozens of communities and we spoke to hundreds and hundreds of people. Each time there would be a few hundred of them.
3623 The excitement that was generated just by giving them a hope that there will be an ethnic radio station -- for example, Renu said about the Chinese congregation that she went to and people were so excited. You can imagine what sort of excitement will be generated once we have the licence and we tell the Chinese community and the Italian community and the South Asian community, we tell them that they are going to have a station, you are going to have a program now and we are going to put local events and local talent and local news and everything on air, I think that itself will be the most effective, you know, way of getting across to them.
3624 But yes, we will also be taking part and we will try to hold or organize festivals like that. In Edmonton, once again there is a Heritage Festival that is not a creation of CKER radio, but they very heavily are involved in that Heritage Festival on the 3rd of August, around there, each year. We intend doing the same.
3625 MS RAY: Well, I can add to that from my experience as a professional dancer also. Yes, I have contact with a lot of talent in the community here that we can put up a kind of a multicultural festival event that would bring together all the communities as well as propagate work we are intending to do with our station.
3626 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. I have a question on population as well. You have discussed it a bit. I just want to understand. Your 400,000 estimate is what you estimate the ethnic population to be now in the year 2001.
3627 MR. RAY: Yes, it is.
3628 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Which is taking the 1996 census and adding on what you estimate to be the ethnic proportion immigration. So in about a year from now we will know whether you are right or not when the results of last week's census come out.
3629 Let me ask you if you have done projections over the next 10 to 20 years. When we are talking about these licences, they are licences for a lifetime. Where do you see the ethnic population in this region being 10 and 20 years form now?
3630 MR. RAY: Maybe I can answer that. As we all know, the federal -- the Canada government, the federal government who is in charge of setting the immigration policy set out that at least for the long term commitment the country is committed to bring in 1 per cent of the total entire Canadian population to Canada every year.
3631 The trend is going to increase due to the recent relaxation of the legislation because we want to bring in more sponsor families. We know that it is very important for a family to get united.
3632 There is one new initiative in the legislation. On the other hand, we know that we need more skilled immigrants, so we will be seeing an increasing trend in the next five years. Actually, they just come out in the five year level planning policy which has just come out.
3633 It's also in the Minister's speech that there is a commitment because the birth rate of Canada is not that good. It's going downhill. Also, the aging of the labour force, so this is the motivation behind the trend.
3634 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: The actual intake is more like three quarters of one per cent. It's not quite one per cent.
3635 MR. RAY: Long time commitment, but depending on how much Canada can absorb, depending on our economic situation, so right now it has been vary consistently increasing, the trend.
3636 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: But in terms of a percentage, you said it's about a third, so let's say 33 per cent. Do you see that percentage, that proportion of the ethnic population in the Ottawa/Hull area staying more or less that proportion given that it is a growing area with the high tech industry and all that, do you see that proportion being that one third or do you see that --
3637 MR. RAY: Yes. It's being quite consistent in that figure. Don't forget we haven't counted those secondary migrants who move from other cities to Ottawa now that we will be attracting more newcomers and immigrants to the City of Ottawa because of the booming economy.
3638 With the legislation amendment, we will be able to bring even more to Canada, to Ottawa. Ottawa ranked fourth as the largest city in absorbing the highest number of immigrants after Montreal. The first is Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal. The fourth is Ottawa, so this is vary significant.
3639 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thanks very much.
3640 Thank you, Madam Chair.
3641 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Ray and your colleagues and Mrs. Ray. We apologize for keeping you so late.
3642 MR. RAY: That's all right.
3643 THE CHAIRPERSON: I think Commissioner Pennefather certainly went through your application thoroughly. We are better informed for it.
3644 Oh, your three minutes of course. I really am not doing well today. It's past my bedtime, I guess. You have the last word to tell us why 89.9 should be awarded to you in competition with others.
3645 MR. RAY: Thank you, Madam Chair and Commissioners.
3646 Infinity's ethnic broadcast plan for 89.9 FM fully meets the spirit and intent of the Broadcasting Act and the Commission's Ethnic Broadcasting Policy. Our application fully meets the criteria set out in the Commission's call for applications to serve the Ottawa/Hull region as per Public Notice 2000-153.
3647 Infinity has more than done its homework among the multicultural communities of Ottawa/Hull, a consultative process we began in 1999. So we know what the local third language groups need. We know what the pent-up market demand is, and we know what it will take to make Infinity's 89.9 FM successful and totally relevant to the community needs and expectations culturally, creatively and commercially.
3648 Infinity's station will be local, with local owners, local directors and a locally relevant community-driven programming format that will be professionally executed by Infinity and its 19-member family of multicultural communities reflected in the 400,000 ethnic Canadians we serve.
3649 Infinity has carefully developed its Canadian Talent Development proposals to ensure that in a new, fresh service environment we can equitably and effectively utilize our $1.6 million direct and indirect expenditures in a manner that will best serve the needs of local ethnic Canadian talent. Direct dollars will be invested in local ethnic talent rather than in infrastructure and expensive overhead.
3650 Infinity's high quality, locally relevant community driven programming to 19 cultural communities and 20 different languages will bring unprecedented diversity and listener choice to Ottawa/Hull radio spectrum.
3651 In effect, we are bringing an entire new universal multicultural programming to Ottawa/Hull's 400,000 ethnic Canadians who are starving for such service.
3652 Infinity's business plan is realistic, well developed and fully achievable. It is founded on solid research and intimate knowledge of the Ottawa/Hull market, its third language communities and its ethnic business community. The $465,000 of unsolicited advertising commitments filed with the Commission is a mere hint of things to come.
3653 Infinity has solid financial resources, a diverse committed and highly professional broadcast team and board of directors, an exceptional group of men and women from Ottawa/Hull's multicultural communities who constitute the advisory council under the chairmanship of Raj Rasalingam.
3654 To come to the National Capital Region and establish the region's first dedicated full service multicultural radio station to serve 400,000 ethnic Canadians in a vibrant and untapped Ottawa/Hull ethnic business community is a unique opportunity that Infinity will optimize to its full potential.
3655 In keeping with the establishment of a first FM radio station for the nation's capital, it would indeed be fitting for Infinity to become the first visible minority broadcaster/owner to serve the nation's capital.
3656 It is time for new blood, new energy, new ownership within Canada's ethnic broadcast undertakings.
3657 Finally, Madam Chair and Commissioners, it is for all of the above and many unspoken reasons in the fullness of our application that Infinity should be viewed as the applicant who will best optimize the utilization of the 89.9 FM frequency and use it to the greatest advantage and benefit of Ottawa/Hull's diverse multicultural universe and Canadian broadcasting system.
3658 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Ray. And thank you again for bearing with us so late in the day. We will see you again in the following phases of the hearing.
3659 This will complete our work for today. We will be back at 9 o'clock tomorrow morning, and we will hear four applications tomorrow.
3660 We will start with Radio Enfant à neuf heures.
3661 Alors nous serons de retour à neuf heures demain matin. Nous serons de retour à neuf heures demain matin et nous entendrons quatre demandes demain matin, commençant avec la demande de Radio Enfant à neuf heures.
3662 Bonsoir à tous.
--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1830, to resume on Thursday, May 24, 2001 at 0900 / L'audience est adjournée à 1830, pour reprendre le jeudi 24 mai 2001 à 0900