ARCHIVED -  Transcript - Hull, QC - 2001/05/22

Multiple broadcasting and ownership applications &
applications further to Public Notice CRTC 2000-153
"Call for applications for a broadcasting licence to carry on
a radio programming undertaking to serve Ottawa/Hull"/
Demandes de radiodiffusion et de propriétés multiples ainsi
que des demandes suite à l'avis public CRTC 2000-153
"Appel de demandes de licence de radiodiffusion visant
l'exploitation d'une entreprise de programmation de radio
pour desservir Ottawa/Hull"

Transcripts

In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages
Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be
bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members
and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of
Contents.

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded
verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in
either of the official languages, depending on the language
spoken by the participant at the public hearing.

Transcription

Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues
officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront
bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des
membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience
publique ainsi que la table des matières.

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu
textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée
et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues
officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le
participant à l'audience publique.

Multiple broadcasting and ownership applications &
applications further to Public Notice CRTC 2000-153
"Call for applications for a broadcasting licence to carry on
a radio programming undertaking to serve Ottawa/Hull"/
Demandes de radiodiffusion et de propriétés multiples ainsi
que des demandes suite à l'avis public CRTC 2000-153
"Appel de demandes de licence de radiodiffusion visant
l'exploitation d'une entreprise de programmation de radio
pour desservir Ottawa/Hull"

BEFORE / DEVANT:

ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:

Hull, Quebec / Hull (Québec)

--- Upon commencing on Tuesday, May 22, 2001 at 0900 / L'audience débute le mardi 22 mai 2001 à 0900

1 LA PRÉSIDENTE: A l'ordre, s'il vous plaît. Order, please.

2 Bonjour, mesdames et messieurs, et bienvenue à cette audience publique du Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des télécommunications canadiennes. Au cours de cette audience, nous examinerons des demandes présentées en vue d'obtenir des licences de stations de radio FM afin de desservir la région de la Capitale nationale.

3 Good morning, ladies and gentlemen and welcome to this public hearing of the Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission.

4 Over the course of this hearing we will be examining applications for FM radio station licences to serve the National Capital Region.

5 Je m'appelle Andrée Wylie. Je suis la vice-présidente, Radiodiffusion du Conseil et je présiderai cette audience. Se joignent à moi pour former le comité d'audition mes collègues, à ma droite, Joan Pennefather, à sa droite, Andrew Cardozo, à ma gauche, Jean-Marc Demers et à sa gauche, Andrée Noël.

6 I would also like to introduce Commission staff who will be assisting us throughout this hearing.

7 Legal counsel, Donald Rhéaume and Mathilda Hykal-Sater; Hearing Manager and Secretary Lynne Poirier and her team. Candy Jacobsen is responsible for the hearing room. Please do not hesitate to speak with them if you have any procedural questions.

8 Au cours de cette audience, nous examinerons 11 demandes de licence de stations de radio FM qui proposent d'utiliser les fréquences suivantes: 89,9 MHz, 7 MHz et 97,9 MHz. Le Conseil note que toutes les requérantes sont en concurrence pour desservir le marché de la Capitale nationale.

9 During this hearing we will examine 11 licence applications for FM radio stations proposing to operate on the following frequencies: 89.9 MHz, 95.7 MHz and 97.9 MHz.

10 The Commission notes that all applicants are competing to serve the National Capital Region.

11 Les requérantes proposent divers formats de programmation. Selon le cas, ces stations seraient exploitées en français, en anglais, en langue autochtone ou en diverses autres langues pour répondre aux besoins de différents groupes linguistiques et culturels.

12 It is up to the applicants to demonstrate clearly to the Commission that there is a demand and market for the proposed service. As set out in its new commercial radio policy, the CRTC is particularly interested in the following aspects;

- The service's contribution to furthering the objectives of the Broadcasting Act and the utility of the service provided to the targeted community.

- The demand for the proposed service and the support shown for it.

- The manner in which the applicant intends to promote Canadian talent, in particular local and regional talent, as well as the diversity of choices for listeners.

- The soundness of the applicant's business plan, including a market analysis and potential advertising revenues.

- The availability of financial resources to meet the requirements set out in the financial forecasts of the applicant's business plan.

13 Le Conseil entendra les groupes suivants soumettre leurs demandes:

14 Yves Belzile, représentant une société devant être constituée;

15 Gary Farmer, représentant un organisme constitué devant s'appeler Aboriginal Voices Radio;

16 Harvard Development Inc.;

17 Newcap Inc.;

18 And a numbered Ontario company best known as Infinity;

19 Fondation Radio Enfant;

20 Radio 1540 Limited;

21 A numbered company who is really the property of Radio Nord;

22 Standard Radio Inc.;

23 Coopérative radio Ville-Marie Outaouais; et

24 Douglas E. Kirk.

25 We note that Craig Music & Entertainment Inc. and Harvard Development Inc. were presenting the third application jointly -- not really the third in the order I read them -- but Craig Music withdrew and Harvard is now submitting the application alone.

26 Also, I would like to bring up a procedural matter at this time.

27 In his application as gazetted, Mr. Douglas Kirk had proposed to operate his radio station on frequency 99.7 MHz. Mr. Kirk was then advised by Industry Canada that while his application could receive a technical acceptance certificate some changes might have to be made given potential interference problems. Mr. Kirk has now refiled his technical brief and is proposing to use frequency 97.9.

28 We invite any party to these proceedings to make any comment they may deem necessary on this change to the technical parameters proposed by Mr. Kirk at an appropriate time in the course of this public hearing.

29 I would like to remind everyone that, as stated in Notice of Public Hearing 2001-4, all appearing applications at this hearing, including Mr. Kirk's, were to be treated as competing against one another, even on the frequency applied for initially by Mr. Kirk, because of potential entry in the same market.

30 Permettez-moi maintenant de soulever une question de procédure concernant la demande de M. Kirk. Dans sa demande initiale, M. Douglas Kirk avait proposé d'utiliser la fréquence 99,7 MHz. Industrie Canada a indiqué à M. Kirk que sa demande était techniquement acceptable, mais que certaines modifications devraient y être apportées, compte tenu d'un problème potentiel d'interférence.

31 M. Kirk a maintenant soumis un mémoire technique modifié et propose d'utiliser la fréquence 97,9 MHz.

32 J'invite donc les parties intéressées à nous faire part, au moment propice, de leurs commentaires concernant ce changement, si elles le jugent à propos. Je tiens à rappeler que, tel que stipulé dans l'Avis d'audience 2001-4, toutes les demandes à l'étude sont de toute façons considérées sur une base concurrentielle, même sur la fréquence que M. Kirk proposait initialement d'utiliser, à cause de son entrée éventuelle dans le même marché.

33 We expect this hearing to last approximately seven days, until Wednesday, May 30th. We will begin every morning at 9:00 and will sit until about 5:00 p.m. We will advise you of any changes in the schedule as necessary.

34 We will examine the applications in four stages.

35 We will first hear the presentations of the applicants, followed by questions from the hearing panel. In this stage we anticipate hearing three applications per day in order to be able to complete the work within the established timeframe.

36 L'étape suivante sera réservée aux interventions des requérants. Ces interventions respecteront le même ordre que celui des présentations.

37 Au cours de la troisième étape, nous entendrons les interventions du public.

38 En dernier lieu, les requérantes auront droit de réplique à toutes les interventions, mais dans l'ordre inverse où elles se sont fait entendre lors de la première étape.

39 Veuillez débrancher vos téléphones cellulaires et vos télé-avertisseurs quand vous êtes dans la salle d'audience. Ces appareils constituent une distraction importune pour les requérantes, les intervenants et les conseillers. Nous apprécions votre collaboration à cet égard tout au long de l'audience.

40 Please turn off your cell phones and beepers when you are in the hearing room, as they tend to distract the applicants, intervenors and Commissioners. We would appreciate your cooperation in this regard throughout the hearing.

41 I will now call on the secretary -- who I expected maybe would cut me off because I am beyond my 20 minutes -- to explain the process we will be following.

42 Madam Poirier, s'il vous plaît.

43 MS POIRIER: Thank you, Madam Chair.

44 I think you have covered most of the procedural matters.

45 I will introduce the first item. It is an application presented by Standard Radio Inc. to carry on an English-language specialty FM radio station in Ottawa/Hull.

46 The new station would operate on frequency 97.9 MHz, Channel 250C1, with an effective radiated power of 35,300 watts.

47 The applicant is proposing a smooth jazz music service.

48 Mr. Slaight.

APPLICATION

49 MR. SLAIGHT: Good morning, Madam Chair, Members of the Commission.

50 It is great to be in Ottawa right off the heels of the Tulip Festival and into these proceedings.

51 I am going to introduce the members of our panel in a second, but we would like to acknowledge that MusicFest Canada is holding its annual competition here in Ottawa/Hull this week. This is the largest stage band competition in Canada and the jazz component is actually going on here at the Holiday Inn in Hull. We hope this is auspicious and is a good indication in terms of our going forward with our application for a jazz licence in Ottawa.

52 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Slaight, as a broadcaster I shouldn't have to tell you this --

53 MR. SLAIGHT: I should move off the microphone.

54 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, because we hear a lot of interference.

55 MR. SLAIGHT: Thank you.

56 THE CHAIRPERSON: I am bossy.

--- Laughter / Rires

57 MR. SLAIGHT: I am Gary Slaight, President and CEO of Standard Radio Inc.

58 This morning I am here with the Standard team to present our application for a new FM radio station for Ottawa/Hull. I would like to introduce the members of our team.

59 On my right is Eric Stafford, General Manager of our existing Ottawa station, CKQB-FM "The Bear". Eric has more than 22 years experience in radio broadcasting and has been with Standard for close to four years.

60 On my far right is Kath Thompson, the Music Director at The Bear. Kath will also be involved in interaction with the local jazz music community if our new station is approved.

61 On my left is Eric Samuels, Vice-President of Programming at Standard Radio. Eric has been with Standard for 15 years and is our resident jazz expert. He is a former professional musician and host of a jazz radio show. If our application is approved, Eric will work with the program director of our new station.

62 Beside Eric is Vicki Cummings, the Sponsorship and Education Program Development Manager at the Ottawa International Jazz Festival. Vicki will be the Chair of our new station's advisory board.

63 In the row behind me, on the far left is Bill King. Bill is a gifted jazz musician, an active member of the Canadian jazz community and publisher of Canada's premier jazz publication, "The Jazz Report".

64 Next to Bill is Ian Lurie, CFO of Standard Radio.

65 Next to Ian is Monique Lafontaine, our regulatory counsel from McCarthy Tétrault. I would officially like to welcome Monique to her first hearing on this side of the table.

66 Beside Monique is Jeff Vidler, partner of Solutions Research Group, consultants.

67 Finally, next to Jeff is Gordon Elder, our technical consultant from Elder Engineering.

68 There are also two members -- actually three members of our advisory board here in the audience today: Dr. Bryan Gillingham, Director of the School for Studies in Art & Culture at Carleton University; Robert Frayne, a local jazz musician and educator; and Judy Humenick of JazzWorks.

69 Other members of our advisory board who are not here today include Peter Herrndorf of the NAC, Chuck Camroux of CJRT and Jim West of Justin Time records.

70 So that is our team.

71 Madam Chair and Members of the Commission, we are pleased to be here today to apply for a smooth jazz FM radio licence for Ottawa/Hull to be called "The Wave 97.9". Our new service will be a true smooth jazz radio station that will add significant diversity to the airwaves in eastern Ontario.

72 As you know, Standard currently operates 12 radio stations in major urban markets across the country, including one here in Ottawa. Standard is proud of its distinguished history of public and community service.

73 We believe that in our application, we bring a level of programming strength, broadcast experience, understanding of this marketplace and a commitment to Canadian talent that is unmatched.

74 Standard's presence in this region began more than a dozen years ago with the operation of our standalone AM station, CJSB. That station lost nearly $12 million before we converted it to an FM service in 1994, which is now The Bear. Despite those financial losses, Standard continued to provide a unique and high quality service to radio listeners in this marketplace.

75 To start off our presentation, let me turn to Eric Stafford, General Manager of The Beard.

76 MR. STAFFORD: Thank you, Gary.

77 Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, Standard is indeed very committed to the National Capital Region. For many years we have been an active and valued member of this community.

78 Consistently we support the fund-raising efforts of a number of local organizations such as the Boys and Girls Club, the Young Fathers' Program, Ronald McDonald House and, of course, the Children's Hospital of Eastern Ontario.

79 Since The Bear's launch in Ottawa in 1994, our fund-raising efforts have raised almost $3 million for these organizations. As CHEO stated in its intervention, we are "one of the leaders in this community".

80 We are now thrilled to be presenting an application for a new smooth jazz radio station for the National Capital Region.

81 Smooth jazz is one of the fastest rising radio formats in North America today. But when we examine the Ottawa/Hull English-language commercial radio market, we discover that smooth jazz has absolutely no representation.

82 It is clear this format would be appealing to the National Capital Region's media buyers. Local and national advertisers have indicated that they would welcome a radio station that targets the upscale 25-54 year old market in Ottawa/Hull. This is a highly sought after and difficult target group to reach as most stations in this region target a younger listenership.

83 For instance, Ormes Furniture stated in its intervention:

"...there is currently not a single commercial radio station in Ottawa that matches perfectly with our customer profile. I believe that the proposed `smooth jazz' format would serve that purpose for our and a number of other businesses in Ottawa/Hull."

84 A letter from OMD, one of the leading purchasers of national radio advertising in Canada stated:

"We feel that this format will attract an audience that has been very hard for our clients to reach in the Ottawa market. With clients on our roster such as the Globe and Mail, FedEx and DaimlerChrysler, to name a few, a jazz format station will surely help us to achieve our goal."

85 Standard is confident that the projected sales which have been outlined for our proposed smooth jazz station are both realistic and achievable.

86 MR. SLAIGHT: Thank you, Eric.

87 I would now like to turn to Vicki Cummings of the International Jazz Festival. Vicki will be the Chair of The Wave's Advisory Board.

88 MS CUMMINGS: Thank you, Gary.

89 As a long-standing member of the National Capital Region's jazz community I am delighted to be a part of Standard's proposal for The Wave 97.9.

90 Ottawa/Hull has one of the most vibrant and growing jazz communities in the country. There are dozens of clubs in the area that regularly showcase some of the greatest live acts in Canadian jazz, such as Vineyards, the Social, the Rainbow and the Black Sheep Inn.

91 There are also a number of wonderful cultural venues, such as the National Arts Centre, that host terrific jazz series for all to enjoy.

92 One of the key events in the National Capital Region's jazz scene is one that is very near and dear to my heart, which is the Ottawa International Jazz Festival. Last year's celebration of jazz had an attendance level of more than 250,000 and showcased no less than 400 Canadian jazz performers, 275 of which were from the National Capital Region.

93 There is clearly a strong demand for this music here. The next logical step to meet that demand, support the local jazz infrastructure and add something different and new to the airwaves, is the addition of a smooth jazz radio station.

94 MR. SLAIGHT: Thank you, Vicki.

95 To talk to you about that demand I would like now to turn to Jeff Vidler.

96 MR. VIDLER: Thank you, Gary.

97 Ipsos Reid interviewed 700 residents in the Ottawa market last summer. I was project manager of that study.

98 The purpose of the survey was to determine the nature and demand for a station specializing in smooth jazz as well as to assess the diversity that such a station would add to the local broadcast landscape.

99 The results of the research show the potential to attract a large upscale audience and the opportunity to add diversity to the market. The study indicates that within its target audience of 25 to 54 year olds, a smooth jazz station would generate as much as a nine share of hours tuned and a potential weekly reach of up to 28 per cent.

100 The research also demonstrates that this demand is not now being served. Three in four, or 75 per cent of potential core listeners to a smooth jazz service said that no Ottawa area station currently specializes in this format.

101 MR. SLAIGHT: Thank you, Jeff.

102 The impact of a new station on the competitive stage of the market is one of the key criteria that the Commission considers when licensing a new service.

103 Ottawa-Hull is currently served by 11 commercial radio stations, or 12 if you include Xfm, the Rogers Smiths Falls station. Eight of the eleven stations are English language radio stations and three are French.

104 With respect to the English language commercial radio market, four are owned and operated by CHUM and three others are owned and operated by Rogers, or four including Xfm in Smiths Falls. In contrast, Standard owns and operates a single stand-alone FM radio station in this market, namely The Bear.

105 As the chart on the easel in front of you shows, the Spring 2001 BBM figures for private English language radio stations in the full area indicated that CHUM has a 55 per share of the 18 plus market, Rogers has a 37 per share and Standard only 8 per cent. Further details about this are attached to the notes for our presentation.

106 In addition, both Rogers and CHUM have significant interests in other media based in Ottawa which include a number of television stations in both cases. Rogers is also the dominant BDU in this marketplace. Standard, on the other hand, does not own or operate any other media service in the Ottawa-Hull area aside from the Bear.

107 There is, therefore, a significant competitive imbalance in the market. Without an additional FM station, Standard risks being further marginalized. We need this station to compete.

108 Turning now to the content that will be broadcast on The Wave, one of the keys to our new station's success will be its unique programming. Eric Samuels is here today to talk about some of these plans.

109 MR. SAMUELS: Thank you, Gary.

110 Smooth jazz is one of the fastest rising radio formats in North America today. Originating in Los Angeles in 1986 with radio station KTWV, it has since hit the airwaves in markets across the U.S. The format is now recognized by its own chart in industry trade magazines and has consistently gained momentum in both ratings and revenues.

111 The smooth jazz wave has also hit Canada with two new smooth jazz stations licensed by the Commission in the past year. In addition, Toronto's CJRT FM, operating our of Ryerson, recently changed format to Jazz.FM 91, an exclusively music station heard all over Toronto.

112 In developing programming for The Wave, we performed extensive research to create a radio station that will add a strong and distinctive local voice. We met with dozens of members of the local and national jazz communities. That feedback helped form the framework of our plan.

113 Listeners of The Wave 97.9 will enjoy a broad range of both contemporary and traditional jazz music from artists like Diana Krall, Holly Cole, Miles Davis, Oscar Peterson and Metalwood.

114 While The Wave will be an English language FM service, we are excited by the opportunity to feature instrumental recordings from francophone artists, many of whom live in this region.

115 All told 80 per cent of the musical selections broadcast on The Wave will consist of music from subcategory 34, jazz and blues, and we have committed to a minimum of 35 per cent Canadian content to apply to both Category 2 and Category 3. We accept both of these levels with confidence as conditions of licence.

116 In addition, the distinctiveness of The Wave's programming will extend to its spoken word, which will amount to approximately 12 per cent of the broadcast week. This will include timely and topical information on the local jazz music scene, the arts and the high tech industry. Without a doubt, our new station will provide a fresh new editorial voice in the National Capital Region.

117 I will now turn to Kath Thompson who is currently music director at The Bear in Ottawa. Kath will be involved with our local Canadian talent development initiatives should our application be approved.

118 MS THOMPSON: Thank you, Eric.

119 Madam Chair and Commissioners, it is truly a pleasure for me to be here today. I have worked very closely with Canadian artists for more than 12 years and have seen firsthand the benefits that a radio station can bring to the careers of Canadian performers.

120 Contrary to the popular film title, stars are not born and talent is really enough to ensure a successful career in music. It takes a lot of very hard work that can be made so much easier when it is supported by the media.

121 At The Bear, we have opened our doors to both new and established Canadian talent. We offer air play, interviews, album features, in-studio performances, concert listings and some concern and industry advice when required. We have alerted record companies, promoters and other media outlets locally and nationally to the outstanding local talent.

122 While my experience has been predominantly in rock music, I strongly believe that the same attitude and energy that we have found so successful at The Bear is readily transferable to Canadian jazz music.

123 If the Wave 97.9 is licensed, I am looking forward to promoting Canadian jazz artists in the National Capital Region as well as implementing some of Standard's excellent CTD initiatives. As I said at the outset, stars aren't born but they can come from anywhere, including Ottawa.

124 MR. SLAIGHT: Thank you, Kath.

125 I would now like to turn to Bill King, our Canadian jazz music specialist.

126 MR. KING: Thank you, Gary.

127 I have known Alan and Gary Slaight for many years and can attest to their commitment and passion for jazz which goes beyond the normal course of business

128 I have also worked firsthand in the Canadian jazz music industry for more than 30 years. During that time I have been involved in many facets of the industry, including the Juno Awards selection process for Canadian jazz artists, the birth of the Beaches Jazz Festival in Toronto, the recording of Canadian jazz music and the broadcast of a jazz radio show for Standard in the 1980s.

129 As a result of this experience, I know that Canada has a tremendous breadth of jazz talent and jazz recordings today. Standard's proposal for a smooth jazz radio station will help Canadian jazz artists launch their careers. It will also help bring them to the next level and establish a greater star base in Canadian jazz music.

130 The program exchanges that Standard has agreed to do with Ryerson's Jazz.FM91 will be very valuable in creating this stronger star system in our country's jazz music industry. This programming initiative will double the exposure of Canadian jazz artists in two of Canada's largest urban markets.

131 I would now like to introduce a tape that I had the pleasure of working on with Sylvia Sweeney. Sylvia is a Gemini award winning film-maker and niece of jazz piano great Oscar Peterson. She is also the producer of the landmark documentary entitled in "The Key of Oscar".

132 What you are about to see is a reflection of what the jazz community from Ottawa-Hull and other parts of the country think about Standard's application.

--- Video Presentation / Présentation vidéo

133 MR. SLAIGHT: Madam Chair and Members of the Commission, as the artists on the video indicate, there are many facets to our CTD initiatives which support Canadian jazz at almost every level.

134 The key areas of support with expenditures of over $4.5 million will be on what we call our "Canadian Jazz Star Program". These initiatives are set out on the easels to your right and include $700,000 for a live concert series which will broadcast live jazz performances from clubs in Ottawa-Hull and Montreal, $350,000 for the annual creation of a compilation CD of music from our live concert series. This CD will be distributed nationally.

135 We have also included with the notes of our presentation a compilation CD called "The Canadian Jazz Scene: Just Waiting to Happen". The disk is an example of the type of music that we will play on The Wave and shows the incredible talent of 21 different Canadian jazz artists from across the country.

136 We will also contribute $700,000 for two overall winners. This initiative will include the creation of a jazz CD and a national concert tour for each of two outstanding Canadian jazz artists every year of the licence term. One of the two artists will be from the National Capital Region.

137 Next, $700,000 will be directed to FACTOR to be used solely for Canadian jazz artists. Half of these funds will be earmarked for jazz artists from the National Capital Region.

138 $700,000 will go to the National Arts Centre's "Jazz at the Fourth Stage" initiative. The funds to the NAC will be used to support the presentation of Canadian jazz performers and for the creation of a master class educational program. The master class program will bring together the NCR's most promising young jazz talent with the region's best professional jazz artists.

139 We will also contribute $875,000 over the licence term to two vibrant jazz and blues music festivals in the Capital Region, the Ottawa International Festival and Bluesfest.

140 In addition, Standard is pleased to provide funding to scholarships for the study of jazz music. We will contribute $175,000 to local institutions such as Carleton University, Glebe Collegiate and JazzWorks, an important local jazz camp.

141 The rest of our initiatives are highlighted on the charts. The total is over $7 million, an unprecedented amount for the National Capital Region. Over $6 million of this is in cash benefits, and that is a firm number to be spent over seven years on qualifying Canadian talent development initiatives.

142 I would now like to conclude by summarizing the key reasons why our application should be approved. It comes down to commitment.

143 First, our commitment to this community. We have been exemplary local broadcasters in Ottawa for more than a dozen years, with a record of support for community events and charities that is unmatched.

144 Second, our commitment to this format. We have committed to be true to this format with at least 80 per cent of our music coming from subcategory 34, the highest of any smooth jazz applicant at this hearing.

145 Third, our commitment to Canadian content. We have committed to a level of 35 per cent which will ensure that Canadian jazz artists will be represented in all their diversity.

146 Fourth, our financial commitment to the artists and to the system as I have just outlined.

147 Finally, we think the application deserves approval because it will help redress the competitive imbalance in the market where the eight stations owned by CHUM and Rogers get 92 per cent of the 18-plus tuning to private English language stations compared with 8 per cent for Standard's stand-alone FM.

148 Mayor Bob Chiarelli stated in his letter of support for our application:

"The City of Ottawa would benefit from a positive response to this request."

149 We agree with his statement and so do the many members of the local and national jazz community and the many community groups who supported this application. We would like to thank them and all of the intervenors.

150 We would now be pleased to respond to your questions.

151 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, Mr. Slaight and your team, old and new. I will have questions for you, first in programming and the music and the spoken word, then the Canadian content -- your Canadian talent development initiatives, a few questions on demand, a few financial questions, the question of balance in the market and, last, some technical questions about frequency use.

152 You have reiterated this morning your acceptance by condition of licence of your response to question 7.6 in Part I of the application which indicates that you would broadcast 80 per cent of music in subcategory 34 and 10 per cent in pop rock and dance and 10 per cent in easy listening.

153 In your supplementary brief at page 14 you state in the first full paragraph that:

"Radio stations that provided an adult contemporary/easy listening format were first to embrace smooth jazz." (As read)

154 Then at page 16 you talk about in the U.S. this format, this smooth jazz, has seen crossover from the pop world.

155 At page 42 of your brief you state that you will also play music, as I have just shown, from the pop, rock and dance and easy listening genres.

156 As you know, it has been argued before the Commission -- and I understand that it will be argued in front the Commission again at this hearing -- that the smooth jazz format is hard to differentiate from pop and easy listening.

157 Considering your commitments of 80 per cent smooth jazz by condition of licence, it will be very important to be able to characterize and log properly what you are broadcasting.

158 Do you anticipate, as some have argued, difficulty in differentiating between subcategory 34 and pop and easy listening?

159 MR. SLAIGHT: No, we don't. I mean, you could look at the charts as an indication, and the music that we play will be from the charts that indicate what would qualify as smooth jazz as opposed to adult contemporary or popular music.

160 Also a big part of our programming -- sorry about that -- we will include traditional jazz into our programming mix, which is something that some of the stations in the U.S. wouldn't be doing, but the research in Ottawa indicates that there is a market for that in this particular case.

161 So we are confident that with 80 per cent as a commitment we can be true to being a jazz station in this marketplace.

162 THE CHAIRPERSON: You do not subscribe at all to this difficulty of differentiating between jazz and blues and easy listening?

163 MR. SLAIGHT: I will maybe have Eric Samuels talk a little bit about that, but no, we don't see it as an issue.

164 What we are playing you will not currently be hearing on Magic FM. What we will play will be music that is not heard in the marketplace, which will be 80 per cent from the jazz category.

165 THE CHAIRPERSON: But, of course, the issue is if that should not be as appealing as you expected what is the possibility of easing into more easy listening out of the 80 per cent without the Commission being able to test?

166 Because this is an argument that is made by experts as well, I suppose, that it is not easy to differentiate between the two. This is a specialty application, therefore you will be bound by a condition of licence so there will have to be a means of distinguishing.

167 MR. SLAIGHT: First of all, we have an advisory board who are totally involved in the jazz community and we expect them to keep an eye on us. If we start straying from what we are committing here in terms of our focus and our benefits, I would imagine that Vicki would be speaking to us in fairly harsh terms.

168 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Slaight, I am focusing more on what is the value of these arguments from a more technical point of view, whether one can actually distinguish and calculate as easily as you seem to. I'm sure your advisory board is not going to clock and log your percentage of subcategory 34.

169 It is interesting that this argument is made that the subcategory 34 is difficult to distinguish from easy listening.

170 MR. SLAIGHT: Again, I don't necessarily agree.

171 Eric, maybe you can talk a little bit about the charts and how that would be an indicator?

172 MR. SAMUELS: I understand the concern about differentiating different genres of jazz music. That has traditionally been a discussion that has been ongoing for more than 50 years.

173 In this particular case I think it is important to note that the vast majority of jazz artists who crossed over into pop started as pure jazz artists during the '70s and '80. People like George Benson and Spyro Gyra, Al Jarreau, Grover Washington Jr., were all complete jazz performers who decided to create a more mainstream jazz music.

174 That was embraced by pop stations at that time. I think that is still very much the template for where the pop-influenced jazz is coming from. It is coming from jazz artists for the most part.

175 If you look at the American model and the smooth jazz chart in the U.S., the vast majority of those artists are jazz artists who are performing. In fact, on many of their albums several of the selections will be in a more traditional jazz style with several selections that would cross over more into the smooth jazz category.

176 Does that help?

177 MR. SLAIGHT: Maybe Monique can talk to that in a technical aspect here.

178 Monique...?

179 MS LAFONTAINE: Thank you, Gary.

180 Madam Chair, Standard's plan and intention is to broadcast music, music that is based in jazz and blues. Subcategory 34 is essentially the jazz and blues subcategory of music. So the intention is, as I say, to play music that has its roots in that genre.

181 If we look at the easy listening and the pop that we say we are going to play, the 10 per cent -- the 20 per cent, rather, that we are going to play, those genres, as defined in the Commission's policy don't include -- the jazz music has been taken out of those categories in the recent 1999 CRTC policy. So it is clear that the smooth jazz format is one that broadcasts music from subcategory 34.

182 THE CHAIRPERSON: That is not quite my question.

183 My question is: What will be your source, what will be your authority to say "This one belongs here" and "This one belongs there"? Because as a Commission we are curious that the argument is made that it is not that easy to categorize.

184 I quite understand that we took it out as a subcategory and that we made it a specialty service. Just since you are here and that is what you will be doing, and that is what you will be logging, what will be your source, I just want to understand technically the value, so to speak, or what you see in the argument that it is not easy to do and hold someone to 80 per cent?

185 MR. SLAIGHT: I guess it's more --

186 THE CHAIRPERSON: Of course, the Commission has already licensed, so --

187 MR. SLAIGHT: Yes. It is also more what we are not going to play. I mean, the 20 per cent is easy to keep track of because of the charts and what is getting airplay on other radio stations.

188 THE CHAIRPERSON: So it would be --

189 MR. SLAIGHT: So if we are going to be a jazz station, the 80 per cent that will not be from that 20 per cent will be from the jazz genre. It won't be from pop, it won't be from rock, it won't be from any of these other formats that are already existing in the marketplace.

190 THE CHAIRPERSON: So it will be by negative deduction.

191 MR. SLAIGHT: If you are going to keep track of it, that would probably be a way to do it, is look at the 20 per cent --

192 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

193 MR. SLAIGHT: -- and if we are playing more than 20 per cent of music that is coming from the other charts then we are obviously moving into an area that we shouldn't be moving into.

194 We are trying to give the Commission assurance here that this is going to be a jazz station and that is why we put the 80 per cent in there and that is why we intend to stay in that area.

195 THE CHAIRPERSON: I accept all that. It was just more a technical question as to how does one ensure that that is done.

196 You will hear another applicant probably with different views and be back in intervention.

197 So there is no source where something will be called subcategory 34?

198 MR. SLAIGHT: There is no source other than the charts which will indicate whether music is in the jazz format or moving into the pop or adult contemporary format.

199 THE CHAIRPERSON: You have made an important part of your application the fact that you would add diversity to the market in the music area, and we can speak about the spoken word later.

200 For example, in your supplementary brief at page 13 you say that "jazz is virtually absent from the market" and at page 18 that "it would be an unduplicated voice".

201 Have you tried to figure out how much of the existing station playlist may fall within that category, including CBC for example, who I notice is now playing jazz in the afternoon weekdays, not only -- I think it used to be in the evening on the weekend.

202 MR. SLAIGHT: I'm going to have two or three people talk to that issue, but in our opinion jazz music is not receiving exposure in this marketplace nearly to the degree that the marketplace indicates it wants to see it.

203 Maybe Jeff could talk a little bit about the research and what the audience has told us about what they are not getting on the radio in Ottawa, and then Vicki --

204 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. My question was more pointed, it was whether you have also tried to determine how much there is of it in the market at the moment and to what extent there would be overlap with existing --

205 MR. SLAIGHT: There is very little. The mainstream radio stations do not play any, as far as we can see.

206 Vicki, who lives in the marketplace -- we were talking about this yesterday -- there is a few sporadic programs on the college stations.

207 Vicki, do you want to talk about what is there now on the radio?

208 MS CUMMINGS: Yes. There is -- certainly CBC does have an element of jazz within its play time. Carleton has a couple of programs that it runs, as well as Ottawa U.

209 But I think the biggest distinction is that there is an enormous amount of local jazz music that isn't being represented anywhere because most of what is on the air is of a pop nature or is being defined or being created within a pop element. Sting is one good example of that, where he has jazz elements but he is not defined as a jazz artist.

210 Whereas the region here has an enormous amount of varied jazz styles that there is just no representation of it anywhere in the airwaves.

211 THE CHAIRPERSON: Has anyone checked, for example, the sale of jazz CDs in the region as a -- and I will be anecdotal -- test of interest?

212 MR. STAFFORD: Yes. We have talked to the record companies and there are on file several interventions from both local record retailers and major record companies in terms of the fact that there is an active element of jazz sales going on in the Ottawa market, despite the fact that there isn't a mainstream radio station playing the music, so there is an interest.

213 Eric, do you want to talk about that?

214 MR. STAFFORD: Yes. We actually spoke to a number of the retailers locally, including Sam's, HMV, CD Warehouse, an area of non-retailers here locally. Compact Music, the difference with Compact Music is that they are a local retailer with jazz sales and pop-rock titles. They are also an on-site retailer for jazz festival and bluesfest.

215 To give you an idea, the sales for compact music are about 37 per cent. Now, that seems high because they are an on-site retailer, but yet still of the other retail stores, it ranges between 5, 8 and even 9 per cent of total sales.

216 To go further, Universal Music, who have really a lot of jazz artists on their roster, for example, they gave us some pretty good information. For example, in their total sales in Ottawa, Diana Krall, for example, her latest album is selling at about 8.5 per cent of their total sales for Ottawa.

217 To put that into perspective, Universal's artist schedule, which is a pop artist and probably arguably their strongest pop artist, is selling less than that at about 5 to 6 per cent. There are sales for Sade, for example, who is a smooth jazz artist, who gets no air play in Ottawa but still has managed to sell over 8,000 units in Ottawa.

218 Miles Davis kind of blew this album, which is a reissue of course, it too sold over 8,000 copies so there certainly is tremendous sales. I can tell you that CD Warehouse, for example, has said to us that they expect if the station is here that they would certainly grow in terms of sales with the additional air playing exposure in the marketplace.

219 THE CHAIRPERSON: With regard to the diversity that may be brought by your spoken word programming which, as you acknowledge is low, it's going to be a music station, so I think you put it at 12.3 per cent of programming, and in response to the deficiency question No. 5, I believe, you have broken it down in detail as between its different components.

220 There an attachment I believe -- yes -- describing programming where you tell us how many newscasts there will be during drive time and how many traffic reports, et cetera. What is the afternoon drive in your view in Ottawa? You point out that the morning drive will be six to nine. What will be the afternoon drive period during which there will be two newscasts per hour?

221 MR. SLAIGHT: That will be three to seven.

222 THE CHAIRPERSON: So one hour more than in the morning.

223 MR. SLAIGHT: Correct.

224 THE CHAIRPERSON: And your high tech reports, are they going to be part of the news?

225 MR. SLAIGHT: Eric.

226 MR. STAFFORD: No. The high tech reports would be separate. They are at least twice a day, 60 seconds, focusing as you know in this marketplace. High tech truly is the storiance, what the economy has been built on in the last few years.

227 Our high tech reports specifically would deal with news relevant to the advanced technology sector, stock information, recruiting information and the impact to the economy.

228 Of course, in some of the news stories, some of those, you know, in terms of the economy how it affects us, and they also surface as a big story for that particular day. This is a couple of times a day, a full 60 minutes each to talk -- or 60 seconds to talk specifically about the high tech sector.

229 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. I was curious because you talk about your newscasts and say that these reports will include local, regional news, business and high tech information, but what you are saying is over and above that there will be specific high tech reports that don't include other types of news.

230 MR. SLAIGHT: Correct.

231 THE CHAIRPERSON: In addition to the newscasts. Now, the public service announcements, they are offered as a non-cash CTV benefit of $25,000 yearly. You will grant, according to page 3 of your supplementary brief, access to The Wave studios for the purpose.

232 How many of these -- well, first of all, are those any type of PSAs or only music related ones?

233 MR. SLAIGHT: No. These will be for community groups. These will be for charitable organizations.

234 THE CHAIRPERSON: For any --

235 MR. SLAIGHT: Anyone who comes forward and wants to use our facilities, we will write the PSAs and produce them for them. We will air them and we will also circulate them to the other stations in the marketplace.

236 THE CHAIRPERSON: And how many do you foresee this amount of money will produce approximately?

237 MR. SLAIGHT: I really have no idea. We are just giving a value to the time and the energy internally to the studio time, to the on-air time that we are going to lend to this particular initiative.

238 THE CHAIRPERSON: And to the demand.

239 MR. SLAIGHT: We think the demand will be there once we make people aware of it. Again, this is also based on a lot of the work we already do in the community through The Bear.

240 THE CHAIRPERSON: So is there a possibility that the demand would exceed the value of this offering, that you would have to pick and choose or refuse?

241 MR. SLAIGHT: No, that's not -- again, if you read the positive interventions from all the community groups, that's not the way we operate our radio stations.

242 We probably could have inflated that amount, but we are just trying to suggest that we are going to go beyond running public service announcements. We are going to work with the community groups to create the PSAs for them and air them.

243 THE CHAIRPERSON: And in that description in answer to deficiency question five, you talk about an entertainment report. That will be again separate from the newscasts.

244 MR. SLAIGHT: Correct.

245 THE CHAIRPERSON: And will be something akin to the arts report on the CBC, for example, except more pitch to your audience.

246 MR. SLAIGHT: It would focus on jazz and it would focus on arts in the community and it would target the slightly older audience that this station will attract.

247 A lot of the radio stations in Ottawa appeal to a younger audience. We think this is an opportunity to get some of the older segment excited about radio and interested in what's going on in the community.

248 THE CHAIRPERSON: And you have also mentioned as part of your spoken word programming on-air personality talk segments. I don't see that in the breakdown. Where would that be in the breakdown on page 3? That would be spoken word programming again.

249 MR. SLAIGHT: That would just be regular dialogue from the on-air hosts, particularly in morning and afternoon drive in terms of what's going on in the city on that particular day.

250 THE CHAIRPERSON: And would those personalities be mostly from the jazz or music related world?

251 MR. SLAIGHT: Our on-air hosts or the personalities?

252 THE CHAIRPERSON: Oh, I see what you mean. This is not interviewing personalities. It is your own personalities.

253 MR. SLAIGHT: They would be on the air discussing things.

254 THE CHAIRPERSON: Who create special programming.

255 MR. SLAIGHT: Correct.

256 THE CHAIRPERSON: I see.

257 MR. SLAIGHT: Now, part of that would be interviews with artists.

258 THE CHAIRPERSON: With artists, and those would be mostly in the area of jazz and blues.

259 MR. SLAIGHT: I would suggest that and also in the arts community.

260 THE CHAIRPERSON: Who happen, let's say, to be passing through Ottawa.

261 MR. SLAIGHT: At local arts fairs or things going on in the community of interest to this particular audience.

262 THE CHAIRPERSON: Now, you have stated that this spoken word programming would be quite distinctive just as the smooth jazz would be distinctively musically. How distinctive from other stations will it be and how distinctive from The Bear?

263 MR. SLAIGHT: Okay. I will let Eric Stafford talk about it, but the fact of the matter is if you look at radio in Ottawa and this is what the research showed us loud and clear, there is a propensity -- there's a lot of stations targeting younger audiences in Ottawa. There's a lot of rock stations, there's three of them. There's top 40, there's country and there's one hot AC radio station.

264 We think that's one of the reasons CBC does so well in this marketplace. It is really because there are not a lot of options for 35 plus in Ottawa in terms of what's going on in the commercial radio dial.

265 With that said, the music will attract them. We hope that the information programming that we put on the air on top of that and the news targeting to a slightly older audience will add some diversity to what's currently going on the commercial radio band.

266 Eric, maybe you can talk a little bit about the news.

267 MR. STAFFORD: Yes. For example, The Bear, for example, would run newscasts that are much shorter, about two and a half minutes in length where on the new station they would run about three and a half minutes, allowing more time, more detail, different stories.

268 For example, if you read the Ottawa Sun and different newspapers, The Bear specifically would maybe skim over the Tulip Festival in attendance, airport expansions, the housing boom. Certainly here in Ottawa, we are home of the National Arts Centre, the National Library, the Ottawa Art Gallery which certainly that material would be of interest.

269 We can go in more detail about that kind of topic.

270 THE CHAIRPERSON: At page 39 of your supplementary brief, you indicate that in a section called diversity of news voices that one way to ensure that it will be different is to have a separate news director, program director and on-air staff from our existing stations. That's The Bear and any other station. You won't get a feed. It will be created by The Wave's staff.

271 MR. SLAIGHT: Correct. We will have a separate news department for The Wave. I mean, totally different radio stations in terms of the audience, so we are going to need to have somebody who is an expert in the area of jazz to program that radio station. We also are going to need a separate news department because of the fact that we will be doing different types of news.

272 THE CHAIRPERSON: Although different type of news, news is news, local news. Will there be any cooperation exchange synergy with The Bear staff?

273 MR. SLAIGHT: No. We will -- I mean if somebody from The Bear happens to be out covering something and it's of relevance to the entire community, it would be foolish for them not to pass it across to the person at the other radio station.

274 The delivery will be different. The Bear is up tempo, loud. This will be conversational and more mature.

275 THE CHAIRPERSON: Let's look at your Canadian talent development. Let's cut to the chase. There is $85,000 per year in your Calgary decision that were disqualified and you were required to change it.

276 Mr. Slaight, I have heard you so many times say that the Commission should be consistent. I am rather surprised that you have them on your chart, unless your chart was made prior to you receiving the Calgary licence and they could not afford to change it.

277 MR. SLAIGHT: The chart wasn't, but the commitments were. We had filed before --

278 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I understand. But I thought you would have saved me this by saying the streaming, the Canadian women's communications initiative.

279 MR. SLAIGHT: Legal counsel suggested that we do that, but I overruled him on this one.

280 THE CHAIRPERSON: Don't you want us to be consistent?

281 MR. SLAIGHT: We do want you to be consistent, and if you do not accept some of these benefits, as you did in Calgary, we have had discussions and have other plans that we can use the money for.

282 THE CHAIRPERSON: Do you want an opportunity to convince me or persuade me that we should accept them for Ottawa?

283 MR. SLAIGHT: We are referring to Internet streaming, CWC and advisory board?

284 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, those three.

285 MR. SLAIGHT: I would suggest that we still think they are worth consideration. I don't think we want to debate it if the Commission is of the opinion that they don't qualify and they are not qualifying benefits. The only reason we put them up here is because they are in our application, and we did not want to change our application in the middle of the process.

286 THE CHAIRPERSON: If we required you to change it by condition of licence, you would accept that?

287 MR. SLAIGHT: We would be happy to accept it, and we did say in our presentation --

288 THE CHAIRPERSON: And to redirect.

289 MR. SLAIGHT: Yes. As a matter of fact, we have the gentleman from Carleton University here today, and we have an exciting program which he is going to talk about in his intervention of where we would direct the money should these benefits not be accepted.

290 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. I read Dr. Gillingham's intervention. He seemed to be more easily persuaded of our consistency, because he seemed to assume that this would happen, to his benefit.

291 MR. SLAIGHT: He may have been talking with you about it.

292 THE CHAIRPERSON: I only read the intervention, Mr. Slaight. I would never --

293 MR. SLAIGHT: I was trying to be humorous there but failed, obviously.

--- Laughter / Rires

294 THE CHAIRPERSON: We will be talking to him in intervention, but the tone of his intervention had convinced that they would not appear this morning; that you would have lowered your flag earlier.

295 So you would accept by condition of licence to redirect those.

296 There also has been some question about the designated group fund and its acceptability, which is probably where Dr. Gillingham would benefit if we insisted that this fund be directed only for the development of Canadian musical and other artistic talent rather than broadcasting in general.

297 MR. SLAIGHT: I think so. Also, I think our friends at the Center for Aboriginal Media, who put on a festival in Toronto, are also going to hopefully benefit from this. There is a nice letter on file from them to do with our commitment and our involvement in that festival.

298 THE CHAIRPERSON: I assume that these programs, even if there is a modification to the extent that it is not directed to other than the development of musical and other artistic talent, will be administered in approximately the same fashion.

299 MR. SLAIGHT: That is correct.

300 THE CHAIRPERSON: Can you give us some examples of the types of programs that would fit within this $50,000?

301 MR. SLAIGHT: Again, we plan to bring people in from Ottawa to the convention in Toronto, which does have a huge musical component. It is also combined with the Aboriginal Music Awards from here on in. We would arrange for studio time in Ottawa for musicians from the four groups to go in and work on their craft. We will work with them on developing their careers.

302 The possibilities are limitless, now that you have defined it as being applied towards the music. There are lots of options there.

303 We see most of it as getting them into studios to rehearse and to work on their recording techniques so that they can go to the next level.

304 THE CHAIRPERSON: It could include a program such as Dr. Gillingham hopes would be directed to Carleton University.

305 MR. SLAIGHT: Yes, it could.

306 THE CHAIRPERSON: How would the administration and management of this fund work, especially if it is given to an educational institution?

307 MR. SLAIGHT: Are you talking about the proposal that Mr. Gillingham made in his intervention here?

308 THE CHAIRPERSON: No. I am talking about your proposal for the designated group fund as modified to exclude broadcasting in general.

309 MR. SLAIGHT: I think, just like any other of the commitments, we are going to have to come up with a way to keep track of these commitments and do the paperwork necessary so that we can verify that we are indeed spending the money.

310 So we will set up an --

311 THE CHAIRPERSON: For the proper purpose.

312 MR. SLAIGHT: Absolutely.

313 THE CHAIRPERSON: Am I mixing apples and oranges when I talk about the designated group fund and the possibility of changing your initiative towards Carleton University? Is that not part of it?

314 MR. SLAIGHT: No. The money that we were talking about was from the other three that were not being accepted.

315 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. He is hoping that some of that will be directed to Carleton.

316 MR. SLAIGHT: Exactly.

317 THE CHAIRPERSON: The other has nothing to do with institutions of higher learning.

318 MR. SLAIGHT: It could.

319 THE CHAIRPERSON: It could?

320 MR. SLAIGHT: If they have a music program and there are scholarships for people from the four groups, absolutely. I can see some overlap here.

321 THE CHAIRPERSON: How will you make those groups aware of the fund? It is easier, of course, if it is for aboriginals; there are sources.

322 But for women, for example.

323 MR. SLAIGHT: Women are such a part of the industry, that is not really the group that --

324 THE CHAIRPERSON: That is not part of the group?

325 MR. SLAIGHT: It is. But there are plenty of them in the music industry and there are plenty of female --

326 THE CHAIRPERSON: It would be easier to find.

327 MR. SLAIGHT: Absolutely. We will be promoting this on the radio, so in terms of the local community they will know about it.

328 In terms of the other three groups, we have established contact and connections and communication just basically because of our employment equity situation and our ongoing efforts there.

329 So we will be letting them know about these initiatives as well.

330 THE CHAIRPERSON: The advisory board, even if it is not counted as the CTD -- should it not be counted as a Canadian talent development initiative -- I expect that you will have an advisory board.

331 What do you see its function being?

332 MR. SLAIGHT: It will be mostly local members. We also have Mr. Kamru from Toronto, and we also have Joanne Belisle from Montreal and Jim West.

333 Vicki is going to head up the advisory board and will work with us in orchestrating exactly what it will do. It will meet three or four times a year and will work with us on a lot of these benefits. We will need some direction.

334 We want to make sure we are interacting with the jazz community in a positive fashion.

335 We see the connection between Ottawa and Toronto and Ottawa and Montreal as being very important for not only jazz artists in Ottawa, but jazz artists from Toronto and from Montreal as well.

336 Vicki, do you want to speak to how you see it?

337 MS CUMMINGS: I think the primary function of the advisory committee is to help provide some direction to relationship building and the marketing and exposure of the music and the artists that we are dealing with.

338 Certainly from the Ottawa Jazz Festival's point of view, we have established some significant links between Toronto and Montreal. And from the point of view of this program, it is essential that we continue to keep that going.

339 Also, we want to be able to have a stream where we can promote outward. This has been primarily one of the biggest problems with Canada: its vastness and the lack of linkages between the eastern part and the western part.

340 I think one of the key roles of the advisory committee is to help establish those links so that more of the country gets exposed to more of its own Canadian talent.

341 MR. SLAIGHT: One final point. We have found the jazz community in Ottawa to be phenomenally keen. There is a real sense of community among them, and there is a passion about the notion of a jazz licence in Ottawa.

342 We want to make sure that they stay involved, should we be granted the licence.

343 THE CHAIRPERSON: You also have as a CTD initiative the Jazz Report radio show, which is $25,000 a year.

344 Since you will have a smooth jazz station, why should the Commission consider that as a CTD initiative as opposed to simply the cost of doing business in building a smooth jazz station?

345 MR. SLAIGHT: Well, we see it as a program because it will be done in Toronto. We need a connection in Toronto with the music industry.

346 We need to have access to artists in Toronto who maybe aren't coming to Ottawa, are unavailable to come to Ottawa. We are really looking at this as we are paying for Mr. King's expertise and connections in the jazz industry to help put a program on the radio that will focus on and support Canadian talent, above and beyond just playing the music.

347 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Slaight, in your application in the deficiency response at page 5, question 6, you say that you propose to broadcast no more than ten hours per week programming on The Wave that will not be locally produced and earlier you also say that: "We intend to produce almost all of the programming on The Wave". So this program would be produced in Toronto and you also discuss some exchanges with Ryerson University.

348 Would that all still fit within the 10 per cent?

349 MR. SLAIGHT: Within the ten hours, yes. It would be four hours --

350 THE CHAIRPERSON: That's in hours then.

351 MR. SLAIGHT: Right. It's four hours a week and that's a maximum. That isn't necessarily going to be there every week.

352 Again, we wanted some flexibility in case programming comes along. We still don't know what is going to happen in terms of the Vancouver jazz application. There may be some programming exchanges with them, whoever should get the licence. We have a new jazz licence launching in Calgary in some point in time.

353 So we are leaving ourselves some flexibility so we can run some programming from these other radio stations should they want to provide it.

354 THE CHAIRPERSON: But ten hours will be a maximum.

355 MR. SLAIGHT: Absolutely.

356 THE CHAIRPERSON: The rest will be produced here.

357 So you would still maintain that the Commission should accept that as a CTV development and not a cost of doing business.

358 MR. SLAIGHT: I would.

359 THE CHAIRPERSON: Again, if we didn't agree, would you accept a redirection of this sum?

360 MR. SLAIGHT: Yes, we would.

361 THE CHAIRPERSON: You also have as a CTV development of the Ottawa International Jazz Festival, a contribution of some importance of $100,000 a year. You talk about it at page 26, I believe, of your supplementary brief.

362 This is an important sum of money. How will you ensure that this cash contribution is used for Canadian artists, for example, Canadian talent because the Ottawa Jazz Festival has a very wide range of performers coming from -- it's international.

363 How will you ensure that this money will be used for Canadian musicians?

364 MR. SLAIGHT: Well, we happen to have somebody on our panel who can talk to those discussions, but we have made it very clear right from the beginning that the money had to go directly to Canadian artists, both local and from other parts of the country.

365 THE CHAIRPERSON: Will that be made a commitment or a condition of the disbursement of this important sum?

366 MR. SLAIGHT: Absolutely.

367 Vicki, maybe you can talk about the importance of this.

368 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, go ahead.

369 MS CUMMINGS: Sure.

370 It is a significant amount of money, no question about that, and one that the Ottawa Jazz Festival is more than overwhelmed to potentially be the recipient of.

371 One of the things that we have developed in our festival is a series devoted to Canadian jazz. We call it the "Great Canadian Jazz Series". So from our operational point of view we can certainly direct the money specifically for that series.

372 One of the other elements that we have is a very diverse local component of what we do. So from our point of view, it will not be a stretch to direct those funds specifically for those programs. It's certainly one of the things that we will do that will help us to be able to feature and showcase more local and more Canadian talent, and throughout the period of the seven years, it will help maintain our ability to be able to fund artists as they move through their career development.

373 Their fees also begin to increase as they become more well known and more popular and this will also help us to be able to maintain our ability to be able to afford to bring them and to hire them and to showcase them.

374 THE CHAIRPERSON: You have had discussions with the organizers already as to what you expect this money will go to.

375 MR. SLAIGHT: Correct, and there is a letter on file as well indicating that. And Vicki, being involved right form the beginning in terms of putting the application together, is committed and we have all agreed that that is what the money will be used for.

376 THE CHAIRPERSON: And you would intend to bind them contractually to that extent.

377 MR. SLAIGHT: Absolutely.

378 THE CHAIRPERSON: Now, you also have an initiative of a quarter of a million a year for the development of Canadian jazz stars, which includes live concerts, $400,000; compilation of a CD for $50,000 and then an initiative towards the overall winners for $100,000.

379 Are the administrative costs included in this budget?

380 MR. SLAIGHT: No, there is administrative cost included there. This is strictly to pay for the talent, for the recording fees, the studio time, the distribution. Those are all costs -- those are all commitments that will be going outside of our operation to run these various initiatives.

381 THE CHAIRPERSON: And you will organize it internally with your own resources not included.

382 MR. SLAIGHT: Correct.

383 THE CHAIRPERSON: For example, who will choose the winners? How is that going to work?

384 MR. SLAIGHT: Well, let me just run through the program. The 26 live concerts will be done in Ottawa and Montreal and those will feature mostly local artists, some Montreal artists and some jazz artists from other parts of Canada.

385 We will take those 26 concerts and select ten tracks to go on the compilation CD. Those tracks will be selected by a panel of experts which could be people from the music industry, from the record companies, jazz festival --

386 THE CHAIRPERSON: Not from The Wave.

387 MR. SLAIGHT: There will be somebody from The Wave involved, sure. Kath would be involved, absolutely.

388 Once the CD is done we will have another process -- we might get the listeners involved, by the way, in selecting those ten to go on the CD. Then in terms of the two to win the overall contest from the ten, those will be selected by a panel as well.

389 THE CHAIRPERSON: And I gather from your comments this morning, and from your supplementary brief that there will be two winners, one from the National Capital Region and one from outside, but in all cases, the ten as well as the two winners, will be Canadians.

390 MR. SLAIGHT: Absolutely.

391 THE CHAIRPERSON: Only Canadians will be selected. Now, you also have the support stage at the NAC commitment of $100,000 yearly which is also a substantive monetary commitment.

392 How will you be involved in that, or will that all be Mr. Herndorf getting the money and using it for jazz artists?

393 MR. SLAIGHT: We are excited about that one, obviously, and we are excited to have Mr. Herndorf involved on our Advisory Board. We will provide the funding for them to be able to put Canadian artists on once a month at the centre, and he will select the artists that are going to perform at the centre. We are hopeful that he will accept some input from us in terms of using, hopefully, the winners from our contest on one of the shows.

394 We would like to see some interaction between what we are doing and what they are putting on at the Centre, but the idea there is to put on Canadian jazz concerts once a month at the Centre.

395 THE CHAIRPERSON: And the NAC would be responsible also for choosing who will be the accompaniment, let's say it's a solo performer and --

396 MR. SLAIGHT: They may put a Canadian artist on with an international artist in certain cases.

397 THE CHAIRPERSON: So it could be other musicians.

398 MR. SLAIGHT: Right, exactly.

399 THE CHAIRPERSON: And that would be their choice as well.

400 MR. SLAIGHT: Absolutely.

401 THE CHAIRPERSON: They would choose the performer, the jazz performer and they would also choose the musicians that accompany him.

402 MR. SLAIGHT: Correct, but on the international though it may be great for Canadian jazz artists to be on the same bill with a well-known jazz artist from another part of the country in certain cases.

403 THE CHAIRPERSON: It could even be musicians from the National Arts Centre Orchestra because some I know do jazz as well as perform in the orchestra.

404 MR. SLAIGHT: They will be tied to the Master Class Program. That's the other part of this initiative that we are excited about.

405 THE CHAIRPERSON: You also have a jazz scholarship initiative.

406 How will this initiative work? Will it be a single scholarship or how will the money for that be administered and by whom? That is, I think, at page 29 of your supplementary brief.

407 Poor Mr. Slaight. I have a big cross across your internet streaming here in my book.

408 MR. SLAIGHT: Already? With no debate?

--- Laughter / Rires

409 THE CHAIRPERSON: I will consult with my colleagues and see what -- some of whom crossed out the Calgary one.

410 Go ahead.

411 MR. SLAIGHT: In terms of the scholarships, I will have Eric Stafford talk about that because he is really the one that has had the discussions with the local educational institutions.

412 THE CHAIRPERSON: This is probably where Dr. Gillinghams' hopes ally. Right? Plus the $85,000 that may be crossed out.

413 MR. STAFFORD: The initial discussion we had with Carleton was that we have committed four separate scholarships, to be called the Standard Radio scholarships, each at $2,500 each. So basically it is for excellence in jazz performance, best overall grades, they have to be part of the jazz program, they are tuition scholarships. So $10,000 committed to Carleton on an annual basis.

414 In addition to that, we have spoken to many of the high schools, in particular Glebe Collegiate. For them, $5,000, which will be used for scholarships for private lessons, money for post-secondary scholarships, attending workshops, master classes, and other items like purchasing equipment, music scores, and even for those students to attend festivals and competitions here locally.

415 So that is really the two scholarships we have committed to.

416 There is additional funding there for other senior high schools as well.

417 MR. SLAIGHT: According to Vacua, there are all sorts of opportunities there for the other $10,000 in terms of scholarships.

418 THE CHAIRPERSON: Is there jazz at the University of Ottawa as well? They certainly have a music program.

419 MR. STAFFORD: We found it is very limited.

420 THE CHAIRPERSON: I see.

421 MR. STAFFORD: We have spoken to some of the artists and they have told us it is very, very limited. Carleton has more program --

422 THE CHAIRPERSON: Carleton tends to specialize more in jazz.

423 MR. STAFFORD: Yes. Right.

424 THE CHAIRPERSON: Now that we have discussed and culled your CTD initiative we will go to demand.

425 We talked a little bit earlier this morning about the sale of CDs and the fact that there is an interest in Ottawa that has been identified by the Angus Reid Ipsos report. Have you attempted, for example, to check the listenership to the CBC's jazz program as a further, again albeit anecdotal, proof of demand in the market?

426 MR. SLAIGHT: No. Largely because we believe they moved them around several times and we are not quite sure where they were running.

427 Secondly, because of the research that Ipsos Reid did, it was so obvious from that research that there was a demand here that we proceeded on that basis.

428 THE CHAIRPERSON: Without checking what listenership the programming that is already available has?

429 MR. SLAIGHT: First of all, most of it is on college radio, so it is limited.

430 In terms of CBC, no, I will be honest, we really didn't. We really don't consider that we are going to be competing with CBC and the research indicated that as well.

431 THE CHAIRPERSON: That wasn't the direction I was going. It was more, is it more popular in Ottawa than in other cities because it is on the network. But you haven't done that.

432 There is something a bit confusing about the share. Reid Ipsos says that you can expect 9 per cent hours tuned for 25 to 54 and a potential weekly reach of 28 per cent.

433 Now, if you look at your supplementary brief at page 35, you talk about an estimated 6.6 per cent by the end of year one and 8.5 per cent by the end of year five. But later, in the deficiency question at No. 3, you talk about 5.2 per cent in year one and 6.7 per cent in year five. Which one is it?

434 MR. SLAIGHT: A lot of numbers.

435 Eric can discuss that and take you through in terms of what those --

436 THE CHAIRPERSON: Unless I missed something there is a fair discrepancy.

437 It is at page 2 of the deficiency response where you have estimated 12-plus audience share, and then at page 35, it is the very first paragraph where you say "The estimated share of 12-plus listening will be 6.6 in year one" -- and that is repeated more than once -- "increasing to 8.5 in year five."

438 It doesn't jive with your subsequent response to question 3.

439 MR. STAFFORD: Madam Chair, the initial share projections and revenue projections were done for Ottawa English. Therefore, the initial revenue projections, for example, which were based on those share levels, they also change from 5.2 to 7.5 instead of 6.6 to 9.5 based on Ottawa/Hull.

440 When the deficiency questions came in you had asked us to give you information on Ottawa/Hull, not just Ottawa English. Our projections were done for just Ottawa English.

441 THE CHAIRPERSON: So the Ottawa/Hull is in question 3 and the audience share goes down?

442 MR. STAFFORD; Yes. The audience share would go down because there are more stations sharing that total audience.

443 THE CHAIRPERSON: I see. The existing three Francophone stations.

444 MR. STAFFORD: Yes.

445 THE CHAIRPERSON: As a result, you talk -- well, I don't know if it is as a result.

446 At page 35 you say that you "will achieve positive cash flow by the fourth year", but your revenue projections show that you will achieve positive cash flow in the fifth year. Because net income after tax is still negative in the fourth year.

447 MR. SLAIGHT: Maybe Ian Lurie, who is our CFO, can talk about those numbers.

448 THE CHAIRPERSON: It is based -- I would have thought that your estimated share on page 35 of the supplementary brief would match the revenue projections filed at 9.1.

449 I understand your explanation for a decreased audience share later on in the deficiency response, would you expect, then, your revenues to go down as well when you take in --

450 MR. SLAIGHT: No, the revenues would stay the same.

451 THE CHAIRPERSON: Which is a different story.

452 MR. SLAIGHT: Right.

453 THE CHAIRPERSON: So you don't necessarily tie it to the share?

454 MR. SLAIGHT: The 5.2 share that is in in terms of the English is where most of the -- where most all of the revenue will come from. Each share point is worth approximately $400,000 and so that is how we calculated the $2,080,000 in terms of revenue.

455 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. So it is year five in 9.1, not year four, that you achieve positive cash flow?

456 MR. LURIE: Actually, positive cash flow is in year four if you add back the depreciation, which is a non-cash item --

457 THE CHAIRPERSON: Oh, I see. I see.

458 MR. LURIE: -- then year four is correct.

459 THE CHAIRPERSON: Which makes it year four.

460 Now, a few questions on the impact in the market.

461 In your supplementary brief you say that there will be little impact on other stations, at page 35. And yet in response to deficiency question 4 you propose that you will take 40 per cent of your revenue -- your sources of advertising revenue will come 40 per cent from local market radio stations.

462 MR. SLAIGHT: That's correct.

463 THE CHAIRPERSON: Can you give me more explanation as to the potential impact? Why you say there will be hardly any impact?

464 MR. SLAIGHT: In terms of the revenue or the audience?

465 THE CHAIRPERSON: In terms of advertising revenue you say --

466 MR. SLAIGHT: Right, 40 per cent from --

467 THE CHAIRPERSON: -- 40 per cent of your advertising revenues will come from existing stations. Would that be just the English-language stations?

468 MR. SLAIGHT: Yes. So that is $800,000 in the first year, which would be spread through most of the marketplace.

469 Based on our research, a lot of our audience will be shared with Magic FM, so I would suggest that a portion of that will come from their advertisers. But that radio station has a 16 share and makes a huge amount of money. I don't think $300,000 or $400,000 will do them a whole lot of damage. The rest will be spread throughout the other radio stations.

470 THE CHAIRPERSON: So your projected revenues of $2 million in year one and $3.8 million in year five, let's say, the 40 per cent would be based -- or this breakdown on a calculation as a percentage of the 46.4 million that was available in the market in 2000 or the 36.5, which is only for the English?

471 MR. SLAIGHT: It's only for the English.

472 THE CHAIRPERSON: So that percentage would be applied to the 36.5 --

473 MR. SLAIGHT: Exactly.

474 THE CHAIRPERSON: -- for 2000 and whatever it is in 2001 --

475 MR. SLAIGHT: Correct.

476 THE CHAIRPERSON: -- and following.

477 To what extent do you see the National Capital Region as a market that is both English and French, or do you see a clear differentiation between the two, in light of the fact that your programming will only be about 12.3 per cent spoken word?

478 MR. SLAIGHT: How do we see the difference in the marketplace?

479 THE CHAIRPERSON: No. When you look at the National Capital Region as opposed, let's say, to look at Calgary, do you see the market as the 11 stations or the 8 stations?

480 MR. SLAIGHT: Similar to Montreal we see -- because we compete on the English side and for the English dollars and for the English audience, we see two separate marketplaces.

481 THE CHAIRPERSON: Do you expect any French Francophones listening to the jazz station?

482 MR. SLAIGHT: We think some might listen to it, because some of the music is instrumental. But all of the vocal music will be English, so we are not sure that that will appeal to them too much.

483 But yes, we would expect to see some tuning. Will it be substantial? No.

484 THE CHAIRPERSON: I would have thought it would be more the spoken word that would --

485 MR. SLAIGHT: As well as the spoken word, right.

486 THE CHAIRPERSON: Because the music, if you like the music and there is a lack of it, you don't necessarily listen to it for the word.

487 MR. SLAIGHT: Correct.

488 THE CHAIRPERSON: So you may get --

489 MR. SLAIGHT: Between the vocals and the spoken word, I don't think we get a lot. We might get a little bit just because there's no jazz station in the marketplace.

490 THE CHAIRPERSON: The aim of my question is to discuss with you a bit what you see coming out of this hearing that may affect your business plan. Do you consider it important whether or not would license one of the francophone applicants as affecting your business plan at all?

491 MR. SLAIGHT: Would that be at the exclusion of us getting a licence or as well as us getting a licence?

492 THE CHAIRPERSON: If you were granted a licence, I'm trying to figure out what you would see as most difficult or what would have an impact on your business plan if we also licensed someone else? First the francophones applications.

493 MR. SLAIGHT: That would not impact our business.

494 THE CHAIRPERSON: And of the anglophone ones, which one could you not easily live with and achieve your business plan?

495 MR. SLAIGHT: They are mostly jazz so another jazz probably wouldn't be great for us. There is one application for a dance station which we think would nibble into the advertising dollars on the younger end of the marketplace.

496 THE CHAIRPERSON: What about an ethnic station? Would that have any impact?

497 MR. SLAIGHT: That would have no impact.

498 THE CHAIRPERSON: Could you live with the other jazz application as filed?

499 MR. SLAIGHT: Could we live with it if you granted two jazz stations? I don't really see that --

500 THE CHAIRPERSON: And yours would be specialty and the other one would not be.

501 MR. SLAIGHT: I don't see the other two as really being -- I see those as being kind of jazz licences. I don't think -- I think that would not be in our best interest no.

502 THE CHAIRPERSON: And it would have an impact on your business then.

503 MR. SLAIGHT: It would have an impact on our business plan and also I think it would largely duplicate what is already being done in the marketplace.

504 THE CHAIRPERSON: But the dance station you could live with.

505 MR. SLAIGHT: No, I don't think the dance station would be great for us either.

506 THE CHAIRPERSON: Why is that?

507 MR. SLAIGHT: Because of the advertising marketplace that they would be targeting which is again the young people who largely we rely on for our advertising dollars on The Bear.

508 It has nothing to do with sharing the audience. It's to do with who the ad agencies and the clients are paying to reach.

509 THE CHAIRPERSON: So it would affect The Bear more than the proposed Wave.

510 MR. SLAIGHT: Absolutely.

511 THE CHAIRPERSON: So you are speaking here as the standard as the broadcaster in the region --

512 MR. SLAIGHT: Correct.

513 THE CHAIRPERSON:  -- not strictly as competition for The Wave. So would it be fair to say that you don't see anything other than the jazz station that would have a major impact on your proposal for The Wave itself, but it could have an indirect impact on The Bear and, therefore, affect the standard as a company in Ottawa.

514 MR. SLAIGHT: On just the jazz, no. On our current situation in the marketplace, it would definitely cause us more problems if you granted the dance licence.

515 THE CHAIRPERSON: Now, that leads me to pursue a bit with you your pitch to the Commission that you should be granted a licence because there is what you call at page 4 of your brief, right at the beginning, a major imbalance in the market and a need for a more level playing field.

516 I believe you reiterated a similar comment as an important aspect of why we should retain your proposal. At page 6 of your presentation you stated that there is a significant competitive imbalance in the market by reviewing the CHUM and Rogers' position.

517 How would The Wave over and above adding diversity on its own be a new undertaking in a market? How would it help Standard to compete in the market to have this additional station as opposed to whether it were just simply a new entrant?

518 MR. SLAIGHT: Right now we are on our own. Mostly in terms of national advertisers, we really have -- you know, we will get some dollars, males 18 to 34. It's very limited. Since Rogers has refocused CHEZ and changed the programming on the Smith Falls FM, our share has dropped three or four share points, which is as I said, it's $400,000 a share point.

519 The activity in the marketplace based on the activity through consolidation has put us in a position where we have a hard time competing nationally for the advertising dollars in this marketplace. Should we be granted a station that programs 25 to 54 and attracts a slightly older audience, we can then package it with The Bear and hopefully see a larger share of advertising dollars coming our way.

520 We are mostly talking about national dollars here which is about 30 to 35 per cent of the revenue we would see annually.

521 THE CHAIRPERSON: Would The Wave be co-located with regard to studios, et cetera, with The Bear's installations?

522 MR. SLAIGHT: Yes. We would put it in the same operation.

523 THE CHAIRPERSON: To what extent does that achieve synergies and cost effectiveness?

524 MR. SLAIGHT: I can have Ian talk about that a little bit because he has run the numbers, but there is some synergy, there is some benefit. It does allow us we think to come forward and spend as much as we are committing to spending on Canadian talent development because of those savings.

525 If there is a saving, we are putting it back into the community in terms of our Canadian talent dollars.

526 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Perhaps if someone could comment on your capital costs, for example, of $1.7 million. They have taken into consideration the synergies and the cost-effectiveness that will flow from co-locating with The Bear.

527 MR. LURIE: The figures that you see in that presentation do include the synergies in terms of co-locating with The Bear. You can really divide into two main areas. There's the people side of the business in that there is going to be some shared people. For example, the General Manager, the General Sales Manager, the accounting person, the technical person. Those will be people that will be shared.

528 THE CHAIRPERSON: The news.

529 MR. LURIE: Not the news. I didn't says news. No.

530 THE CHAIRPERSON: I was really careful here.

531 MR. LURIE: No, no, that's separate, but the sharing of those people alone would amount to about $250,000 that would be absorbed by the new station and relieve The Bear of those costs.

532 Then there's the premises component, for example, and municipal taxes, computer systems, infrastructure type costs that would be an additional hundred thousand dollars, so approximately about $350,000 would be relieved from The Bear that would be absorbed by the new station.

533 THE CHAIRPERSON: It would be a yearly operational saving.

534 MR. LURIE: Correct.

535 THE CHAIRPERSON: So the $1.7 million for capital costs, that's 11.3 of Part I of the application, would not be notably different because of the synergies. The capital costs would still be there.

536 MR. LURIE: The capital cost in order to build the station would still be there.

537 THE CHAIRPERSON: Because you would have to have two --

538 MR. LURIE: Correct, and we will be broadcasting from our old tower as opposed to The Bear which is broadcasting from Camp Fortune.

539 THE CHAIRPERSON: On an installation that already exists.

540 MR. LURIE: Yes. It would have to be reconstructed.

541 THE CHAIRPERSON: But nevertheless less expensive than were you building it from scratch.

542 MR. SLAIGHT: Yes, it would be, but also because we have the -- you know, maybe, Monique, you can talk about the transmitter here, but we have the opportunity by spending this money to come forward with a great signal that will reach a large portion of the marketplace and that's what the cost is for the -- a lot of that cost is for the transmitter situation.

543 THE CHAIRPERSON: So the transmitter won't be co-located with The Bear. It will be on an installation you had before when you had an AM station.

544 MR. SLAIGHT: Monique will talk to this. She's our technical guru.

545 MS LAFONTAINE: Thank you, Gary.

546 THE CHAIRPERSON: These things you learned, eh?

547 MS LAFONTAINE: At law school.

548 What Standard is going to do or is proposing to do is build a tower, a 650 foot tower, on a lot at a cost of -- in the southwest end of the city at a cost of about a million dollars. The reason it can do this is because it used to have its old AM station's transmitter out there and the land was grandfathered. There were some new zoning bylaws that were adopted in the land we were grandfathered.

549 As a result of this, they are going to build this giant tower in the southwest end.

550 THE CHAIRPERSON: We intend to relate this with the choice of frequency in a minute , but before -- I want to ask you, Mr. Slaight, all these comments you make about imbalance in the market, a need for a level playing field, as an experienced broadcaster, are you of the view that it's no longer possible for a new entrant with a single station to enter a large market like this one -- it's not the largest in the city but it's one of the largest -- and it's just not possible to build a viable business as a new entrant with a single station.

551 MR. SLAIGHT: No, that's not what we are saying. We think that's possible. There are good broadcasters in Canada. We have done it in Ottawa. We lost a lot of money over the initial years, but we are now in a situation whereby if someone else is granted this particular licence in this marketplace, it doesn't make a currently troubling situation any better for us, speaking personally.

552 Could somebody else come into the marketplace and set up a radio station and launch a stand-alone FM radio station in Ottawa? Sure. We don't necessarily, in looking at some of the projections and some of the ratings, projections of some of the other applicants, believe that -- we think they may have problems in terms of surviving because it's tough enough as it is, but yes, they could do it.

553 THE CHAIRPERSON: The statement that you are making about the imbalance is that you, Standard, as a company think that one of the reasons why we should grant you a licence is that we already have two major broadcasters with more than -- with the maximum number and your claim is it is even more than the maximum number of frequencies in the market and that you would be able to as a company grow and perform better with another station, but it's not a statement about the inability of a new entrant to make it.

554 MR. SLAIGHT: No, it's not. It's to do with our situation, our relationship in the marketplace and our belief that if there is a new licence granted, we hope that we will be given some extra consideration because of the competitive imbalance that we are currently going through, all things being equal.

555 THE CHAIRPERSON: And you wouldn't see yourself as a new entrant. You feel you have another argument to say that the frequency should be granted to you.

556 MR. SLAIGHT: My feeling is in this case, given the magnitude of the other two groups, to bring another player into the marketplace will not necessarily be in that player's best interest or in our best interest competitively.

557 THE CHAIRPERSON: Now, on the technical front, 97.9 is identified in the FM plan as a limited class A channel or frequency. Why did you choose this frequency?

558 MR. SLAIGHT: Not being technically inclined, I will turn this over to Mr. Elder.

559 MR. ELDER: Good morning, Madam Chair and Commissioners.

560 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning.

561 MR. ELDER: I will keep it short and simple. The other eight Ottawa-Hull --

562 THE CHAIRPERSON: Didn't act stupid.

563 MR. ELDER: The other eight Ottawa-Hull applicants propose average ERPs between point 8 and 40 kilowatts. We propose 35 kilowatts average and a hundred kilowatts maximum at a new transmitting site which you were just discussing a moment ago.

564 This location is new for FM and it has a 650 foot tower proposed and a custom designed antenna. The result is a superior 97.9 MHz frequency assignment. For example, as tabulated on our comparative contour map which we shall provide you with copies of, the population of 885,000 within the three millivolt per metre contour is much higher than those of the other 97.9 MHz applicants and 68 per cent above their average.

565 Moreover, Radio Nord is the only three millivolt per metre contour which would completely enclose Ottawa-Hull.

566 The site is in the southwesterly portion of Ottawa which formerly was part of Rideau Township. It is owned by Standard Radio and was CJSB AM's transmitting site until about eight years ago.

567 Another advantage of Standard's application is that it provides superior wide area .5 millivolt per metre coverage. Reduced coverage similar to that proposed by the other four 97.9 MHz applicants could be provided on one of the other vacant allotments. However, Standard's could not be duplicated on any of them.

568 There are six vacant AMs and five FMs which are discussed on a two page summary report which we propose to table with the Commission. The challenge of using them resembles a jig-saw puzzle in my opinion. There are a good many protection requirements required, third adjacency, Channel 6 which is up at Mount Camp Fortune, et cetera, et cetera. I don't want to get into all those details.

569 THE CHAIRPERSON: I notice that you had identified, probably in reply -- and I don't want to encroach on that part of the proceeding -- four FM frequencies. You now say five.

570 There are five available FM frequencies?

571 MR. ELDER: One of them is unsuitable.

572 THE CHAIRPERSON: Is that the 107?

573 MR. ELDER: Well, 107.7 is one that has been used and is technically feasible.

574 THE CHAIRPERSON: So that would be the fifth one?

575 I don't know if I am correct, but I have here 88.3, 97.1 --

576 MR. ELDER: 88.3 and 104.7 are the bottom one and the top one of the ones on our list.

577 THE CHAIRPERSON: That would still be available.

578 MR. ELDER: Those are the ones on our list, yes.

579 THE CHAIRPERSON: That would still be available on the FM band, in your view, after this hearing even if all three frequencies were granted.

580 MR. ELDER: If they were sited at a suitable site, which would generally be Camp Fortune, or near there.

581 107.7 is probably impractical because of aeronautical interference.

582 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I saw that. Then there are some that are embargoed because of NAVCOM, as well, 108 up to 137.

583 In your view, five FM frequencies would still be possible depending on siting and six AM frequencies, even if all three frequencies that are now competed for were granted.

584 Is that correct?

585 MR. ELDER: It is theoretically feasible. How satisfactory some of those frequencies would be remains to be determined.

586 THE CHAIRPERSON: And you say 104.7 would be the best band.

587 MR. ELDER: It is one of them.

588 THE CHAIRPERSON: And it would not be impeded by the use of any other frequencies that are applied for at this hearing.

589 MR. ELDER: Let me read you the note regarding 104.7, Madam Chair. It is third adjacent to CKTF and CKBY, both of which are at Camp Fortune.

590 So it would have to be located there, and it would have to be accepted by the licensees of those two stations and/or Industry Canada, which is going to come around to that within the next six months or so.

591 THE CHAIRPERSON: Do you mean because of their attempt to review their rules regarding separation?

592 MR. ELDER: That is correct, yes.

593 THE CHAIRPERSON: That could make it easier than to use these frequencies.

594 MR. ELDER: Yes. A number of situations are in use where the stations are three channels apart and they don't create any interference with each other.

595 THE CHAIRPERSON: So by testing it may be possible.

596 MR. ELDER: Yes.

597 THE CHAIRPERSON: There may be some frequencies left, even if we granted all three that are applied for here. That would make it possible.

598 With regard to the 97.9, you have outlined right now what you see as the reason why it is the best use of the frequency technically.

599 MR. ELDER: I have.

600 THE CHAIRPERSON: You did that earlier in your response.

601 I guess, Mr. Slaight, you have told us why it is the best use of the frequency from a programming perspective as well.

602 Do you have anything else you want to add about that: why in a competitive hearing you should be granted 97.9?

603 MR. SLAIGHT: As I mentioned, the format is obviously crucial in filling a void in the marketplace.

604 We also think it is important to look at the benefit to the artistic community in this city and in the country, and in particular jazz music.

605 Our application, whether or not some of the benefits are accepted, will put more money and time and energy back into the jazz community than any of the other applicants.

606 In terms of the artistic community, there is a huge benefit there for those people involved in those communities.

607 THE CHAIRPERSON: Counsel has questions. Then we will give you three minutes to answer any questions you didn't ask.

608 Me RHÉAUME: Merci, Madame la Présidente. Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

609 Mr. Slaight, very briefly: First of all, with respect to your business plan, your projected revenues would go from $2 million in year one up to $4.5 million in year seven, for a total of close to $24 million.

610 Forty per cent of that -- and these are projections -- would come from the existing radio market. So we are talking roughly between $9 million and $10 million.

611 MR. SLAIGHT: First of all, the 40 per cent was really intended for year one; in other words, the initial impact on the revenue in the marketplace.

612 Over the course of the next seven years, who knows what will happen in terms of the radio market, new businesses, the high tech segment. So that number could change.

613 That is what we felt would be the ratios going into the first year or so.

614 MR. RHÉAUME: From your experience in other markets and starting stations, you also indicate that 25 per cent would come from new advertisers. I guess my premise might be wrong, because I am focusing on the duration of the licence term where it would seem that the 40 per cent, for new advertisers, would be about $6 million.

615 I am not sure if the CHUM people and the Rogers people in the room would agree that there is $6 million of absolutely untapped new advertisers.

616 Could you expand on the answer that you gave in part to Commissioner Wylie.

617 MR. SLAIGHT: The number is intended for the first year. Once you have advertisers on the air and once you have them on your radio station, hopefully you are going to keep them. As a result, you won't need long term to bring in -- not that we shouldn't be trying to do it at all times. We want to see new advertising coming into radio.

618 The numbers we put in there were really for the first year's revenue in terms of how we saw that $2,080,000 being split up.

619 Over the course of seven years, I don't think you are going to see -- you are going to see our clients who we bring to our radio stations stay on the air with us.

620 MR. RHÉAUME: The breakdown that you have in your letter of March 7th where you break down the projected revenues, how would that work? Or is it premature to even attempt to say that, for the duration of the licence?

621 MR. SLAIGHT: It is very difficult to talk about five or six years from now in terms of where the advertising dollars are going to come from.

622 We do know from experience that in the first year, based on what we see in the marketplace and based on what we are projecting for the radio station, that is how we see the revenue being split up.

623 In terms of the new advertising dollars, perhaps Eric could quickly talk about where we see that money coming from.

624 MR. STAFFORD: I will quickly let you know that traditionally the last three years in the marketplace the market has grown about 7 per cent. We did project about 4 per cent growth into the next year or the first year of this licence.

625 The new dollars will come from that market growth, about 4 per cent that we have projected, increases in existing advertisers' budgets, clients that are on the air, for example, and mostly new clients. New tuning to the market, to the radio station, will bring new clients in.

626 We have identified a good portion of those dollars from new tuning and new advertisers in the marketplace.

627 MR. RHÉAUME: I guess the point of my question was also with the upscale university educated listening audience that you are targeting.

628 You gave a few examples this morning. Mercedes, I think, was one of them. I, for one, have difficulty envisaging a Rolex commercial or a BMW commercial on radio.

629 Am I being naive here? What is the relationship between upscale format or the upscale audience?

630 MR. SLAIGHT: I would not suggest you are being naive. I would suggest, though, that any advertiser or any client is potentially a radio advertiser. It is our job to convince them to be part of the environment that is radio.

631 BMW does advertise on the radio.

632 MR. RHÉAUME: Good.

633 MR. SLAIGHT: The Globe and Mail, The Financial Post -- there are all sorts of upscale advertisers who do advertise on the radio.

634 What we found, though, is that a lot of them don't feel there is a lot of choice in Ottawa for their advertising.

635 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you. Just one more question on the smooth jazz format.

636 The smooth jazz format you indicate in your presentation was started in the mid-1980s, I guess, in Los Angeles and it has been growing ever since.

637 Is it fair to say that a smooth jazz format is essentially instrumental music driven?

638 MR. SLAIGHT: I would say more so than other formats, it is. But there is still a large vocal component, whether you look at traditional jazz or the smooth jazz that is being released today, the Molly Johnsons, the Carol Welsmans of the world. It is a bit of both.

639 MR. RHÉAUME: Without thinking that I am trying to extract a commitment -- because I am not --

640 MR. SLAIGHT: You would not do that to me.

641 MR. RHÉAUME: I would not do that to you, not just now, Mr. Slaight.

642 In your proposed music list, your plan for the station, what have you projected would be your vocal to instrumental ratio?

643 MR. SLAIGHT: We have not projected. We believe it will be approximately 50:50, ranging to 60:40 either way. A lot of it depends on what kind of product is on the marketplace.

644 Given our commitment to 35 per cent Cancon, a lot of it will depend on the type of Canadian music that is being released at any given time.

645 MR. RHÉAUME: Take, for example, your Calgary station, which should be at least somewhat advanced in planning, have you thought this out as to what the vocal-to-instrumental ratio would be?

646 Again, rest assured that this is not an attempt to extract commitment at all.

647 MR. SLAIGHT: I believe Mr. Beaudoin is working away at that. Our licence in Calgary was for an urban station, and it will be pretty well virtually all vocal.

648 MR. RHÉAUME: So the 50:50 ratio, if such is the case, would that apply to Category 2 as well as Category 3 music?

649 MR. SLAIGHT: The 50:50 ratio?

650 MR. RHÉAUME: You said for a smooth jazz station your ratio roughly, you would expect, to be 50:50 vocal-to-instrumental.

651 MR. SLAIGHT: But there could be huge swings in that. It really depends a lot on what -- there will be a lot of current music on this radio.

652 Eric, do you have something that you want to say?

653 MR. SAMUELS: Given that there will be a distinction with Canadian content local artists, if we were to use as a template the current state of smooth jazz in America. This weeks's radio on records smooth jazz chart reflects a mix that is just slightly under 60 per cent instrumental.

654 MR. RHÉAUME: I am going to finish with this.

655 To have your Category 2 music at 20 per cent -- 10 and 10, easy listening and pop and dance -- fit in with the smooth jazz format, would you expect that you would have a higher ratio of instrumental to vocal in your Category 2 than you would, let's say, on your other station?

656 MR. SLAIGHT: Possibly but not necessarily -- can I be more vague.

657 I don't think so. I think most of the Category 2 will be vocal in reality. There may be some instrumental in there that we select.

658 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you.

659 That is it for now, Madam Chairman.

660 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, counsel.

661 Mr. Slaight, the mic is yours. You have three minutes.

662 MR. SLAIGHT: I am going to do you a big favour and be about 30 seconds here.

663 Madam Chair and Commissioners, thank you for listening to our presentation today. I would like to summarize it this way.

664 We believe we have paid our dues in the marketplace. We have done our research. Based on the points that we have discussed this morning, we think that we have put forward the best application for this frequency.

665 We would be privileged to receive this licence. We know Ottawa-Hull will be thrilled with the quality of the station we will launch if we are licensed. We leave it in your hands to decide.

666 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Slaight. And thank you to your colleagues as well.

667 I hope the new ones enjoyed the experience.

668 We will take a well-deserved 15-minute break and we will return at 11:15.

669 Nous reprendrons à 11 h 15.

670 MS LAFONTAINE: Madam Chair, before we actually leave, may I table the documents that Gordon Elder has prepared, the contour maps and the engineering study?

671 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, counsel.

--- Upon recessing at 1100 / Suspension à 1100

--- Reprise à 1115 / Upon resuming at 1115

672 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Madame la Secrétaire.

673 Mme POIRIER: Merci, Madame la Présidente.

674 La prochaine demande est présentée par la compagnie 9098-7280 Québec Inc. pour exploiter une entreprise de programmation de radio FM spécialisée de langue française à Ottawa/Hull.

675 La nouvelle station sera exploitée à la fréquence 97,9 MHz, canal 250B1, avec une puissance apparente rayonnée de 20 000 watts. La requérante propose un service de musique classique.

676 A vous la parole, messieurs.

APPLICATION

677 M. BROSSEAU: Bonjour, Madame la Présidente, Mesdames et Messieurs les Conseillers, membres du personnel.

678 Je vous invite maintenant à changer de planète car notre proposition vise le marché francophone de la musique classique avec des moyens beaucoup plus sobres que ceux qui viennent de vous être présentés.

679 Mon nom est Pierre Brosseau. Je suis président et chef de la direction de Radio Nord Communications.

680 A ma droite, permettez-moi de vous présenter Me Francine Côté, conseiller juridique.

681 A ma gauche, Denis Bouchard, directeur général des ventes et marketing et responsable de nos opérations radio, et Réjean Nadeau, directeur général, finances et administration.

682 Derrière nous à droite, M. François Cousineau qui en plus d'être un artiste bien connu est aussi compositeur, pianiste, chef d'orchestre, ex-président de la SOCAN et ex-président fondateur de la SODRAC et compte près de 40 ans de métier dans la musique.

683 Au centre, M. John van Driel, vice-président, programmation musique classique CFMX-FM à Toronto. A sa gauche, M. Gilbert Paquette, vice-président et directeur général de CARAT Expert.

684 J'aimerais également souligner la présence dans la salle de M. Jean-Yves Gourd, président du conseil d'administration de Radio Nord Communications et je voudrais souligner également M. Joseph Rouleau dont la présence n'a pas été possible ce matin. Il devait se joindre à nous. Il est empêché pour des raisons de transport d'être avec nous.

685 Avec votre permission, je demanderais peut-être que subséquemment Me Côté fasse lecture d'un texte qu'il devait nous lire s'il avait pu être parmi nous.

686 Me CÔTÉ: Pas évidement avec la même voix.

687 M. BROSSEUR: Madame la Présidente, mesdames et messieurs.

688 C'est avec beaucoup de fierté et, dois-je le dire, d'anticipation que nous présentons notre demande de radio Classique CHLX-FM sur la fréquence 97,9 pour servir les amateurs, et ceux qui le deviendront, de musique classique populaire de la région de Hull/Ottawa.

689 Fondée en 1948, Radio Nord Communications exploite cinq stations de télévision ainsi que quatre stations de radio, une dans la région ainsi que quatre stations de radio, une dans la région de l'Abitibi-Témiscamingue, une à Hull/Ottawa, une à Lachute et une à Hawkesbury. Nous exploitons également une maison de production à Hull, Total Création.

690 Radio Nord Communications rejoint aujourd'hui plus de 600 000 personnes sur un vaste territoire dans les provinces de Québec et de l'0ntario.

691 Nos racines dans la région de Hull/Ottawa sont bien étendues. Nous y sommes présents depuis 23 ans avec le support de plus de 90 employés. Notre projet de radio francophone de musique classique populaire reprend un vieux rêve et s'inscrit naturellement dans le développement de Radio Nord Communications.

692 Nous avons les ressources pour en faire un succès, en comptant sur notre connaissance du marché et notre expérience tant en radio qu'en télévision. Nous sommes convaincus que notre projet répond à un véritable besoin pour la population francophone que nous voulons servir en lui offrant un choix distinctif.

693 Plusieurs raisons justifient la venue d'une radio classique dans ce marché. Rappelons tout d'abord que seulement deux services FM commerciaux de langue française sont offerts sur un total de 23 stations. Ces deux services sont exploités respectivement par les réseaux Télémédia et Astral Média dans des formats adulte contemporain.

694 Depuis mercredi dernier, la transaction annoncée pourrait avoir pour effet de réduire la propriété de ces deux services à un seul détenteur.

695 La présence de Radio Nord Communications apporterait donc une diversité qui s'impose, non seulement en termes de service, mais également en termes de propriété dans le marché francophone où les choix sont limités.

696 Les stations privées de radio francophone recueillent environ 71 pour cent des heures d'écoute des francophones de la région, 29 pour cent des heures étant attribuées aux stations de langue anglaise. Nous pensons que notre station pourra récupérer une partie des heures d'écoute qui sont dévolues aux stations de langue anglaise.

697 Au plan économique, le marché Hull/Ottawa connaît une croissance très dynamique et pourrait facilement absorber une nouvelle radio comme celle que nous proposons, d'autant plus que selon l'expérience vécue dans le marché de Montréal par CJPX, la station de musique classique détenue par M. Coallier, nous sommes confiants que notre station contribuera à créer de nouvelles heures d'écoute en plus de rapatrier les heures que les francophones consacrent aux stations de langue anglaise.

698 Notre recherche nous a fait découvrir que les Québécois sont, toutes proportions gardées, les plus grands acheteurs de disques classiques au monde. Il existe au Québec des producteurs de disques spécialisés dans la musique classique, comme la maison Analekta qui produit, entre autres, Mme Angèle Dubeau et qui vend plus de 100 000 disques par année. D'autres maisons, comme Atma, Amberola ou Fonovox, ont aussi une forte présence dans la production de disques de musique classique.

699 Le nombre de spectacles et d'événements de musique classique, symphonique ou instrumentale, de chant lyrique ou choral, est en augmentation constante -- que l'on pense à l'Orchestre symphonique d'Ottawa ou au Théâtre lyrique de Hull. Les festivals d'été sont des événements qui attirent un nombre de plus en plus grand de participants à Lanaudière, à Orford, au Domaine Forget, à Vaudreuil ou à Saint-Sauveur.

700 On entend de la musique classique comme support à des publicités destinées aux jeunes, comme GAP à la télévision, ou au cinéma comme trame sonore. Et pourtant, ce phénomène de popularité grandissante est un peu reflété à la radio, ce qui est surprenant et regrettable.

701 J'attire votre attention sur le sondage effectué par Léger Marketing qui conclut à des résultats très prometteurs pour notre nouvelle station. Soixante-deux pour cent des répondants sont personnellement très ou assez intéressés par le concept d'une nouvelle station de musique classique alors que 83 pour cent ont indiqué leur intention de l'écouter. La musique classique et l'opéra arrivent au deuxième rang comme musique préférée pour les répondants après la musique populaire et le rock, et bien avant tous les autres genres musicaux.

702 Nous ne prétendons pas que la musique classique est le premier choix des francophones à la radio mais il s'agit d'un genre musical très en demande et sous-représenté.

703 Je cède la parole à Denis Bouchard qui va vous faire part des éléments qui distinguent notre proposition et lui confèrent son originalité.

704 M. BOUCHARD: Nous proposons une formule spécialisée principalement musicale, composée de musique classique avec un léger segment de jazz. Les émissions de création orale, incluant l'information locale et régionale, représenteront 15 pour cent de notre grille de programmation. Notre proposition est originale et se distingue de l'offre de Radio-Canada, CBOX, par un son plus spécialisé et plus populaire.

705 Nous voulons susciter la curiosité des auditeurs, y compris les plus jeunes, qui ne sont pas amateurs de musique classique et les apprivoiser peu à peu.

706 Nous voulons leur faire aimer la musique classique qu'ils fredonnent souvent sans le savoir, en reprenant des airs de publicité entendue ou des trames sonores de leurs émissions préférées ou de films culte. Nous voulons contribuer à changer cette perception que la musique classique est ennuyante ou réservée aux plus vieux.

707 Éventuellement, qui sait, ils syntoniseront peut-être Radio-Canada qui diffuse des concerts ou des programmes en intégrale, présentés dans un cadre plus formel avec des analyses et commentaires destinés aux mélomanes avertis.

708 Je vous invite maintenant à écouter un enregistrement que nous avons préparé à votre intention pour vous donner une idée du son que nous voulons offrir et qui comporte divers témoignages sur l'importance de la contribution d'une station de musique classique populaire au développement de ce secteur de l'industrie musicale.

--- Présentation audiovisuelle / Audio Presentation

709 M. BOUCHARD: Nos initiatives pour supporter le talent canadien comportent trois volets.

710 Tout d'abord, l'émission Studio-Musique classique. Nous prévoyons dix mini-concerts ou émissions qui seront rediffusées une fois par semaine. Un budget de 15 000 dollars a été prévu à cette fin.

711 De plus, un montant de 10 000 dollars par an de dépenses directes a été prévu pour des bourses à de jeunes artistes canadiens. Les règles et conditions seront élaborées en étroite collaboration avec les maisons d'enseignement, conservatoires et autres institutions présentes dans la région.

712 Enfin, ce concours fera l'objet d'une promotion active, bien entendu, sur les ondes de nos stations de télévision du marché CHOT-TVA et CFGS-TQS.

713 Notre radio classique est un instrument de choix pour susciter l'intérêt de la population, stimuler le goût pour cette musique et développer une habitude d'écoute qui aura des retombées économiques importantes pour nos artistes.

714 Avec votre permission, je demanderais à Francine Côté de nous faire la lecture des notes que M. Joseph Rouleau nous a transmises.

715 Par la suite, François Cousineau, qui nous accompagne, vous fera part de son expérience.

716 Me CÔTÉ: Alors merci, Denis.

717 Je vais prendre la voix la plus basse possible que je peux vous offrir.

718 Alors au nom de M. Rouleau :

"Je me réjouis de l'initiative de Radio Nord Communications de proposer et de créer une radio classique pour servir les amateurs de la région de la Capitale nationale.

Je suis actuellement à ma retraite, président des Jeunesses musicales du Canada dont le mondant est de développer le goût de la musique chez les jeunes.

Ma participation à cette présentation s'explique par mon engagement de toute une vie au service de la musique classique et par mon étonnement de constater que la Capitale nationale n'a pas accès à un service comme celui de M. Coallier à Montréal, par exemple.

Au Québec, plusieurs artistes classiques qui sont des vedettes contribuent à mieux faire connaître le répertoire classique tels Angèle Dubeau ou Gino Quillico et, bien entendu, le célèbre chef d'orchestre Charles Dutoit, pour ne nommer que ceux-là. Au plan international, nos interprètes dans le chant lyrique ou choral bénéficient d'une grande popularité et sont de plus en plus recherchés.

En fait, on pourrait dire que souvent il faut être connu à l'étranger avant de l'être chez nous car il y a peu de fenêtres pour promouvoir nos artistes.

Cette nouvelle station propose des initiatives comme la captation des événements musicaux, les prestations de certaines activités des étudiants des écoles et conservatoires de musique et des concours prestigieux qui sont tenus régulièrement, qui encourageront les jeunes à se produire en public et à se faire Je crois que la mise en valeur de la relève est le meilleur instrument pour assurer la vitalité de la musique classique et du chant lyrique et pour convaincre un nombre de plus en plus grand d'auditeurs d'apprécier ce genre musical.

Voilà pourquoi j'ai cru important de me joindre aux représentants de Radio Nord Communications pour demander au Conseil d'autoriser cette nouvelle station à Hull/Ottawa".

719 Merci.

720 M. COUSINEAU: Bonjour, Madame la Président et distingués membres du panel.

721 C'est avec beaucoup d'enthousiasme que j'ai pris connaissance de la proposition de Radio Nord Communications de lancer une nouvelle station de musique classique dans la région de Hull/Ottawa et je vous dis pourquoi.

722 En tant que musicien professionnel, mais aussi en tant que compositeur-artiste qui fait des disques, il est très important pour avoir le moindre succès de pouvoir tourner à la radio.

723 Vous le savez aussi bien que moi, la réalité commerciale de la majorité des diffuseurs fait en sorte qu'ils hésitent ou refusent de faire entendre de la musique instrumentale. Heureusement que Jean-Pierre Coallier existe parce que depuis deux ans il fait tourner mes disques ainsi que ceux d'Angèle Dubeau et d'André Gagnon et beaucoup de gens semblables, et c'est très bien.

724 Le projet de Radio Nord Communications se démarque par le souci de créer une nouvelle vitrine pour la plus belle musique, celle qu'on préfère souvent réserver aux grandes salles de concerts alors qu'elle peut très bien accompagner les auditeurs tout au long de la journée, comme c'est le cas à CJPX. De cette façon, vous redonnerez aux auditeurs la liberté de choisir la musique qu'ils aiment.

725 C'est pour cela que je souhaite que votre décision soit favorable au projet de Radio Nord Communications.

726 M. BROSSEAU: Madame la Présidente, Mesdames et Messieurs les Conseillers.

727 Notre proposition se distingue par sont originalité et la diversité qu'elle apportera dans le marché. Elle présente aussi une façon concrète de contribuer à un meilleur rayonnement de nos artistes en leur assurant une autre fenêtre pour se faire connaître alors que seulement deux autres radios au Canada sont spécialisées dans ce genre musical.

728 Cette licence, si vous l'autorisez, permettra aussi à Radio Nord Communications de se développer dans la mesure de ses moyens comme diffuseur régional et connaître une expansion essentielle à sa croissance dans l'univers convergent où la consolidation est une vague de fond.

729 En conclusion, notre proposition présente l'avantage de marier les objectifs du système de radiodiffusion aux intérêts des auditeurs de Hull/Ottawa, à ceux des artistes, des musiciens, des compositeurs, des chanteurs et producteurs ainsi qu'à ceux de notre entreprise. C'est pourquoi nous sommes convaincus que notre demande est dans l'intérêt public.

730 En terminant, je voudrais remercier, et ils sont nombreux, ceux qui ont appuyé notre demande.

731 Nous sommes disposés à répondre à vos questions.

732 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci, Monsieur Brosseau et vos collègues et bienvenue à l'audience.

733 Madame la Conseillère Noël a des questions pour vous.

734 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Bonjour, Madame, Messieurs.

735 Les questions que j'ai à vous poser aujourd'hui se situent autour des points suivants. D'abord votre programmation, y compris le développement des talents canadiens, le marché desservi, le format choisi, l'impact sur le marché existant, la population visée, quelques questions sur vos prévisions financières et enfin des questions beaucoup plus techniques que je garde pour le dessert.

736 Alors si on commence avec la programmation.

737 D'abord, j'aimerais qu'on parle de la différenciation qu'il y aurait entre votre programmation, ou la programmation que vous entendez diffuser, et ce qui s'entend à la Première chaîne et à la Chaîne culturelle à l'heure actuelle.

738 Alors est-ce que vous pourriez -- vous avez dit à l'annexe 5 de votre demande, vous précisez que la station diffusera un contenu plus grand public alors que la Chaîne culturelle a des émissions comportant des dimensions plus explicatives et analytiques des oeuvres diffusées en ondes.

739 Est-ce que vous pouvez élaborer et nous donner un peu plus de détails là-dessus?

740 M. BROSSEAU: Merci, Madame la Conseillère.

741 Essentiellement notre proposition vise un format de musique classique populaire, populaire en ce sens qu'on parle plus d'un format où on va avoir un espèce de palmarès des pièces bien connues de la musique classique.

742 On vise à initier et à introduire les gens à une meilleure connaissance de la musique classique en débutant par un contenu qui va être plus populaire et connu. Par rapport à la programmation de la Chaîne culturelle de Radio-Canada, je vous dirais que là où, entre autres, la Chaîne culturelle va proposer des opéras en entier, nous allons plutôt aller vers les extraits, là où la chaîne de Radio-Canada va avoir de longue période d'analyses et de commentaires, nous allons avoir un rythme beaucoup plus accéléré, beaucoup plus jeune.

743 Nous avons l'intention de demeurer près de nos auditeurs et en ce sens-là d'avoir des animateurs qui vont être également recherchistes et qui vont parcourir la région.

744 La grosseur du marché de Hull/Ottawa est telle que ça va être plus facile pour nous, compte tenu de notre présence déjà dans le marché par nos télévisions, de couvrir le marché adéquatement.

745 Peut-être que M. Bouchard peut vous donner plus de détails sur la --

746 M. BOUCHARD: Bien sûr, un peu comme M. Brosseau le disait, donc un format qui va être très, très près des goûts de gens qui ne sont pas nécessairement de parfaits mélomanes mais des amateurs de musique classique. Bien sûr, beaucoup d'émissions de demandes spéciales à l'antenne, beaucoup d'émissions qui vont jouer les airs les plus populaires au monde.

747 Bien entendu, tout le monde connaît les grands airs d'opéras. Tout le monde les sifflotent. La plupart de la population les connaît. Ce sont ces airs-là qu'on va retrouver sur notre antenne.

748 Entre autres aussi, lors de concerts, nous distribuerons des cartons aux spectateurs pour qu'ils puissent donner des notes d'appréciation sur les pièces qu'ils ont entendues ainsi que sur les interprétations et à partir de ces données-là nous allons pouvoir mettre sur pied des palmarès.

749 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Maintenant --

750 M. BROSSEAU: Peut-être que M. Paquette pourrait nous aider à compléter cette réponse.

751 M. PAQUETTE: Ce qu'il faut peut-être préciser c'est qu'en analysant la programmation actuelle de la Chaîne culturelle de Radio-Canada, il y a au maximum 18 pour cent qui est consacré à la musique classique parce qu'il faut bien faire voir que la Chaîne culturelle n'est pas une chaîne de musique classique. C'est un amalgame de différentes genres. J'exclus là-dedans le rock, et cetera.

752 Donc dans le 18 pour cent il y a effectivement beaucoup d'oeuvres intégrales, entre autres, l'opéra du samedi qui est d'une durée de trois heures, et des pièces qu'on qualifie un peu de complexes, qui ne s'adressent pas au grand public en général parce que le public ne les connaît pas ces pièces-là.

753 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Vous avez parlé d'un palmarès. Comment vous allez fonctionner pour avoir ça? Répétez-moi ça -- des cartons distribués dans les salles de concerts.

754 M. BOUCHARD: Entre autres, il y a plusieurs stations de musique classique qui fonctionnent de cette façon-là. C'est à dire que lors d'un spectacle, lors d'un concert, à la fin du concert on distribue des cartons aux spectateurs et on leur demande des notes d'appréciation sur les différentes pièces du concert.

755 Alors ils nous donnent une note d'appréciation pour la pièce et, bien sûr, une note d'appréciation pour l'interprétation de la pièce.

756 A partir de cela, nous pourrons être en mesure d'évaluer quelles sont les pièces les plus appréciées par les spectateurs de musique classique. Bien sûr, il y aura aussi les émissions de demande spéciale où les gens pourront téléphoner et demander pour un air et à ce moment-là nous compilerons ces demandes et jouerons les chansons les plus demandées.

757 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Vous avez mentionné, Monsieur Brosseau, que vous étiez déjà sur le terrain.

758 Est-ce que vous pourriez élaborer un peu sur les synergies qui pourraient être développées entre vos deux stations de télévision -- votre station TVA, votre station TQS -- et la nouvelle station de radio que vous proposez.

759 M. BROSSEAU: Au niveau des synergies, nous évaluons peut-être à 125 000 ou 150 000 dollars ce que nous pouvons en tirer comme avantage. Effectivement, notre présence dans le marché depuis au-delà de 20 ans nous amène à avoir une bonne connaissance du marché, outre dans le domaine de l'information, par exemple, notre service de nouvelles va pouvoir travailler en collaboration avec la salle de nouvelles que nous avons déjà pour nos deux stations de télévision qui est la plus importante de la région. Ça va nous permettre d'offrir des nouvelles d'une qualité particulière.

760 Nous avons également une maison de production avec laquelle nous comptons travailler en étroite collaboration, entre autres, pour notre série de captation que nous voulons faire d'événements dans la région.

761 Nous avons déjà à nos stations de télévision un espèce d'agenda culturel qui va nous permettre d'avoir une bonne connaissance des événements qui se passent dans le milieu.

762 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Alors votre maison de production pourrait couvrir, par exemple, ou faire des captations "live" de concerts dans la région. C'est ce que vous nous dites.

763 M. BROSSEAU: C'est ce que nous prévoyons.

764 Nous prévoyons également des synergies au niveau des services administratifs. Physiquement la station sera vraisemblablement située dans le même immeuble et il y a plusieurs synergies qui vont pouvoir se réaliser à ce niveau-là.

765 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Est-ce que les ressources des deux stations de télévision vont être utilisées de façon régulière pour promouvoir votre nouveau service et couvrir des événements culturels et des concerts? Est-ce qu'il y aura à la fois quelque chose qui apparaîtra à la télévision en même temps que de l'écoute radiophonique?

766 M. BROSSEAU: C'est notre intention d'utiliser nos services en télévision pour faire la promotion des concours dont on vous parlait tantôt, faire la promotion des lauréats de ces concours-là. Vous aurez plus de visibilité et il y a lieu à des promotions croisées sur l'existence même d'une nouvelle station de radio dans le marché à travers nos télévisions.

767 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Maintenant, dans votre demande vous nous dites que vous allez couvrir les activités culturelles de la région.

768 Est-ce que -- que ce soit de la musique, les concerts, les spectacles, l'opéra, et cetera, et les succès de nos artistes canadiens à l'étranger.

769 Allez-vous engager des personnes-ressources additionnelles pour ça ou si vous allez utiliser les services des gens qui sont déjà à l'emploi de Radio Nord dans vos stations de télévision?

770 M. BROSSEAU: Nous avons prévu dans notre organigramme pour la station de radio trois postes d'animateurs-recherchistes et un poste de journaliste.

771 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Et ce sont de nouveaux postes.

772 M. BROSSEAU: Ce sont de nouveaux postes qui seront créés.

773 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Et ce sont des gens qui ont un bagage musical je suppose.

774 M. BROSSEAU: Nous avons l'intention, évidement, d'essayer de centrer nos objectifs d'embauche vers les jeunes, et les jeunes qui sont issus du milieu, de la région.

775 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Du milieu musical.

776 M. BROSSEAU: Du milieu musical.

777 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: D'accord.

778 On va parler maintenant du contenu canadien. On sait tous que les grands airs populaires sont populaires depuis un certain nombre d'années et ce n'est pas nécessairement nos grands compositeurs canadiens qu'on retrouve le plus dans ce palmarès.

779 Est-ce que vous pouvez nous parler --vous savez que dans le cadre de la nouvelle politique sur la radio on demande un minimum de 10 pour cent de musique de Catégorie 3.

780 Comment allez-vous atteindre le 10 pour cent de contenu canadien à ce niveau-là?

781 M. BROSSEAU: L'information que nous avons, et que nous avons puisée entre autres avec l'expérience de CGPX à Montréal, nous démontre que nous avons pu adhérer à votre règle minimale de 10 pour cent. Ce que vous escomptons c'est que la venue sur le marché d'une troisième fenêtre de diffusion pour la musique classique populaire va probablement avoir un effet d'entraînement et générer une production additionnelle et nous espérons pouvoir, durant le cours de notre licence, augmenter, en terme de contenu canadien, notre performance.

782 Me CÔTÉ: Si je peux ajouter aussi, avec votre permission, qu'il y a eu une relaxation des règles, je pense, au niveau de la détermination de ce qui constitue du contenu canadien. Un exemple, en discutant avec nos collègues de Toronto, ils nous disaient que Glenn Gould ne se qualifiait pas auparavant et se qualifie maintenant. Donc il y a peut-être un petit coup de pour ce qui vient dans ce sens-là en plus de l'effet d'entraînement.

783 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: En fait, il était dans la même situation que Céline Dion.

784 Me CÔTÉ: C'est ça -- pas dans la même catégorie.

--- Rires / Laughter

785 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Maintenant, si on parlait de la répartition de ce 10 pour cent minimal de contenu canadien dans la journée de radiodiffusion.

786 Comment voyez-vous dans votre grille de programmation -- dont je vais reparler plus tard -- répartir le contenu canadien.

787 M. BROSSEAU: Je laisserai M. Bouchard répondre spécifiquement à cette question.

788 M. BOUCHARD: La musique canadienne, bien entendu, va être répartie du lundi au vendredi, de six heures le matin à six heures le soir, comme la Loi le spécifique bien entendu.

789 Nous allons produire les registres des programmes une semaine à l'avance ce qui nous permettra de nous assurer -- le programme musical une semaine à l'avance, ce qui nous permettra de nous assurer que les quotas sont bel et bien respectés.

790 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Et dans cette fenêtre de six heures à 18 heures, pour atteindre le niveau minimum de 10 pour cent, quel pourcentage de pièces musicales canadiennes va permettre d'atteindre le 10 pour cent minimum entre six heures et 18 heures?

791 M. BOUCHARD: Bien 10 pour cent des pièces en fait.

792 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Ce que je veux dire, sur la journée totale de radiodiffusion ça représenterait -- c'est ça, ça va être en six heures et 18 heures seulement.

793 M. BOUCHARD: Exactement.

794 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Vous ne prévoyez pas de musique canadienne au-delà de 18 heures?

795 M. BOUCHARD: Oui, bien entendu, si comme, par exemple, à 18 heures le soir il y a une émission de demandes spéciales où quelqu'un demanderait un air classique canadien, bien entendu ça nous ferait plaisir de le jouer.

796 C'est comme à peu près tous les radiodiffuseurs canadiens, en dehors des heures prévues ils jouent aussi de la musique canadienne. Nous allons donc en jouer également à l'extérieur de la fenêtre prévue par la loi.

797 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Je vous remercie.

798 Maintenant, si on va à votre studio de musique classique, vous nous avez dit tout à l'heure -- attendez un peu que je retrouve mes notes -- que vous prévoyez dix mini-concerts qui seront rediffusés une fois par semaine.

799 Est-ce que vous pouvez m'expliquer? Vous allez en faire dix originaux et ils vont être repris pendant trois ou quatre semaines de suite, c'est ça?

800 M. BROSSEAU: Effectivement, nous comptons faire dix captations que nous allons rediffuser avec un facteur de répétitions qui va nous donner 52 semaines.

801 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Alors en moyenne cinq fois -- une captation originale et quatre rediffusions.

802 M. BROSSEAU: C'est juste.

803 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Est-ce que ces rediffusions-là vont être dans les semaines successives ou si ça va être un peu mélangé?

804 M. BROSSEAU: Je comprends qu'on va les espacer et faire une rotation de nos dix captations.

805 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: C'est parce que c'est ça, ça m'amène à mon autre question. "Bon matin, Chopin" -- je regardais votre grille, où est-ce que j'ai mis votre grille de programmation? Elle est ici.

806 Est-ce que vous entendez nous faire écouter du Chopin tous les matins entre six heures et dix heures à l'exception des nouvelles parce que je veux dire que la Valse/Minute on va l'entendre plusieurs fois --

--- Rires / Laughter

807 M. BROSSEAU: Je vous dirais, Madame Noël, que les textes ou les titres qui ont été disposés sur notre grille horaire étaient simplement à titre indicatif. C'était plus des jeux de mots que des titres effectifs que nous entendons utiliser pour notre programmation.

808 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Alors vous allez quand même avoir une présentation plus variée que --

809 M. BROSSEAU: On va avoir effectivement une présentation beaucoup plus élaborée que celle-là.

810 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: D'accord.

811 Je vois aussi là le dimanche en soirée, "Les Grandes Valses" -- je veux dire les gens vont être étourdis le lendemain matin -- entre six heures et minuit.

812 M. BROSSEAU: Je vous demanderais, je pense, d'apprécier le caractère générique de ces titres et de ne pas nous tenir rigueur.

--- Rires / Laughter

813 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Mais ça va quand même être beaucoup plus varié.

814 M. BROSSEAU: Ça va être beaucoup plus varié.

815 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Il n'y aura pas seulement de la musique de danse, que ce soit des valses ou des menuets. Ça va être plus varié que ça.

816 M. BROSSEAU: Ça va être beaucoup plus varié et élaboré.

817 Peut-être que Denis pourrait vous donner plus de détails.

818 M. BOUCHARD: Bien sûr, il y aura beaucoup de pièces vocales, mais d'abord et avant tout une plus large partie de pièces musicales qui seront diffusées. Nous aurons des opéras, des opérettes, des extraits d'opéras/opérettes, bien entendu, quelques chants lyriques.

819 Grosso modo ça résume un peu ce que nous jouerons -- des airs très, très connus, Vivaldi, Boléro de Ravel.

820 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Oui, vous avez commencé avec les Saisons d'ailleurs.

821 Si on allait regarder ce qui se passe du côté du marché de Hull/Ottawa.

822 Est-ce que vous considérez -- cette demande-là a été faite par Mme Wylie, et je pense qu'elle va y revenir pour tous et chacun des demandeurs de licences ce matin, cette semaine en fait -- que le marché de Ottawa/Hull devrait être traité comme deux marchés séparés, c'est-à-dire anglophones et francophones, ou bien comme un seul marché intégré?

823 M. BROSSEAU: Pour nous le marché d'Hull/Ottawa est composé de deux marchés distincts sur le plan des revenus. Bien que nous escomptons être écoutés par une partie du marché anglophone, ça n'a pas d'intérêt sur notre plan d'affaires comme tel puisque nos annonceurs achètent la clientèle francophone uniquement.

824 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: D'accord.

825 Vous savez qu'il y a onze demandes devant le Conseil, quatre demandes pour des radios francophones, quatre demandes pour des radios anglophones, deux demandes de radios ethniques et une demande pour une radio autochtone.

826 Si le Conseil acceptait plus qu'une demande, est-ce qu'il y aurait un impact sur votre plan d'affaires?

827 M. BROSSEAU: Je vous répondrais que les études que nous avons faites nous ont révélé que nous ne serions pas affectés comme tel par d'autres demandes que vous pourriez décider d'accorder, certainement pas dans le marché anglophone, d'une part, et pour ce qui est du marché francophone nous escomptons tirer une partie importante de nos heures d'écoute par la génération de nouvelles heures d'écoute, comme on a vu le phénomène se produire dans le marché de Montréal avec CGPX.

828 D'autre part, on sait qu'il y a une bonne partie, soit près de 30 pour cent des heures d'écoute, de la population francophone qui maintenant est perdue, si on peut utiliser l'expression, au profit des radios anglophones du fait du peu de diversité ou de l'offre limitée qu'on retrouve dans le marché francophone. Nous comptons évidement rapatrier une partie de ces heures-là en plus des heures que nous espérons créer si nous suivons le modèle de CJPX.

829 D'autre part, l'étude que nous avons faite -- et M. Paquette pourrait être plus spécifique là-dessus -- nous révèle que seulement 40 pour cent des heures d'écoute que nous escomptons avoir proviendront des radios actuelles, ce qui représente, si on les répartit entre les différentes stations, une partie infime de leurs revenus.

830 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Est-ce que votre réponse est la même si on autorisait, par exemple, une autre station francophone en même temps que la vôtre, par exemple, Radio Ville-Marie qui a un son un peu plus religieux, mais quand même relativement classique disons.

831 M. BROSSEAU: Disons que par définition, nous n'aurions pas d'objection à ce que vous octroyiez une deuxième licence dans le marché francophone. Nous ne croyons pas que ça affecterait notre plan d'affaires et nous croyons, au contraire, que ça encouragerait le facteur de diversité que nous croyons extrêmement important dans le marché aujourd'hui.

832 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Maintenant, si on parlait un peu du format. Est-ce que -- bon, vous nous avez parlé du fait qu'à part la Chaîne culturelle qui diffuse, est-ce que j'ai bien saisi, 18 pour cent de musique.

833 M. PAQUETTE: C'est ça.

834 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Et qui ne sollicite pas de publicité, comme on le sait. Est-ce que vous pensez que les annonceurs sont intéressés par le format de musique classique?

835 M. BROSSEAU: Nous croyons savoir que les annonceurs sont extrêmement intéressés. C'est un autre des avantages que nous avons d'être déjà présents dans le marché. Les annonceurs du marché sont déjà nos clients en très grande partie et nous avons choisi plutôt que de faire faire une étude par une firme extérieure, ce n'est aucunement une façon de mettre en doute la compétence de CARAT, mais nous avons choisi, à cause de notre connaissance du marché, de faire une étude interne qui a été assez révélatrice quant à l'intérêt des annonceurs.

836 Peut-être que M. Bouchard pourrait nous donner plus de détails là-dessus.

837 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: C'était le sens de ma question. Est-ce que vous avez contacté les annonceurs pour savoir si ce projet que vous avez, que vous nous présentez ce matin était viable au point de vue des recettes publicitaires?

838 M. BOUCHARD: Oui, bien sûr. On a contacté plusieurs de nos clients importants -- je vous dirais une cinquantaine des plus importants -- pour être en mesure de bien comprendre leur envie d'annoncer sur une station de musique classique, et les conclusions ont été très intéressantes. Entre autres, vous connaissez probablement l'usine de papier Scott qui est à Hull. Ils commanditaient --

839 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: C'est en face d'ici, je pense.

840 M. BOUCHARD: Oui, exactement. Ils commanditaient à Montréal à CLFM les concerts de musique classique et ils ne le faisaient pas nécessairement uniquement par principe d'annoncer leurs produits, mais aussi par goût à la musique classique. Ils ont montré de l'intérêt aussi, bien entendu, à revenir comme annonceurs à la radio sur une radio de musique classique.

841 Également, on a discuté avec plusieurs annonceurs de la région, entre autres Ameublement Branchaud, André Branchaud, qui envisage ouvrir une nouvelle section de meubles un peu plus haute gamme à l'intérieur de son commerce. Il nous a dit, bien entendu, qu'une station de musique classique dégagerait un environnement intéressant pour annoncer des meubles de haute gamme.

842 Beaucoup de concessionnaires auto de luxe -- Casino Acura. Plusieurs de nos clients importants nous ont dit vouloir cibler un segment démographique ayant un revenu un peu plus élevé, ayant une scolarité un peu élevée, et si on regarde le profil des stations de musique classique, bien c'est un peu à cette clientèle-là qu'elle s'adressent. Alors il y a un paquet d'annonceurs, beaucoup de restaurants de fine cuisine d'Ottawa et de Hull qui ont montré, évidement, une envie certaine de se retrouver sur la station.

843 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Suffisamment pour faire tourner la station.

844 M. BOUCHARD: Bien entendu, comme notre plan d'affaires le précise.

845 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Maintenant, pouvez-vous nous dire comment se compare le marché de Montréal par rapport au marché -- en faisant les adaptations nécessaires compte tenu des proportions, mais comment se compare le marché de Montréal où CJPX a pris un essor très rapide avec le marché de Hull/Ottawa?

846 M. BROSSEAU: Nous avons, effectivement, étudié de près les expériences de CJPX à Montréal et également de la station à Toronto. Ce qui distingue, nos études nous révèlent, le marché francophone de Hull/Ottawa c'est un auditoire qui est plus fervent de la musique classique populaire même que ce qu'on retrouve sur le marché de Montréal, et en ce sens-là ça nous permet d'être optimistes quant aux résultats que nous escomptons.

847 On a affaires à un marché qui est particulièrement favorisé sur le plan des revenus. On a affaires à un marché où le taux de scolarité est plus élevé que dans toutes les autres régions du Québec, et on a également affaires, ce qui est important, à un marché qui se voit offrir très peu de choix. Ce qu'on veut essentiellement leur offrir c'est un choix nouveau et c'est un choix qui est particulièrement adapté à leur spécificité.

848 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: D'accord.

849 Maintenant si on parlait des parts d'écoute, de l'impact sur le marché existant. C'est plein de chiffres alors vous allez être patients avec moi. J'étais pour dire ça va avoir un format semblable à CBOX, mais si j'écoute M. Paquette je pense que ma prémisse est déjà fausse.

850 La portée hebdomadaire de CBOX moyenne c'est 4 pour cent auprès des personnes de 12 ans et plus et vous, vous prévoyez 11,1 pour cent à l'an un, et 13,9 pour cent à la septième année de votre licence.

851 Est-ce que vous pouvez nous expliquer comment vous allez atteindre ces niveaux-là si on compare à ce que réalise CBOX-FM, la Chaîne culturelle?

852 M. BROSSEAU: Plutôt que de risquer d'ajouter à la confusion, je vais demander à M. Paquette de vous répondre tout de suite là-dessus.

853 M. PAQUETTE: Disons que l'estimé de portée qu'on a effectuée provient, entre autres, de la situation de CJPX à Montréal et aussi de plusieurs études. La plupart des études arrivent aux mêmes chiffres incluant Statistique Canada. Quand on demande aux gens leur propensité à écouter de la musique classique, ça tourne toujours autour de 15 à 20 pour cent, selon le marché.

854 Une autre étude qui est l'étude PMB qui est une étude, à notre avis, très crédible et qui sonde les habitudes d'écoute de 22 000 personnes au Canada, ce que l'étude nous dit c'est qu'à Hull et Ottawa, chez les francophones, l'incidence d'écouter de la musique classique est de 15 pour cent supérieure aux gens de Montréal et le taux d'assistance à des concerts est dans l'ordre de 40 pour cent. Ce qui veut donc dire que le marché de Hull nous offre un potentiel plus élevé, toutes proportions gardées, que le marché de Toronto ou le marché de Montréal.

855 Donc nos projections tiennent compte de ce facteur-là qui est très important.

856 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: D'accord.

857 Maintenant, vous avez parlé de rapatrier les heures d'écoute des stations de langue anglaise. Est-ce que vous pouvez nous dire, à votre avis, quelles stations seraient affectées -- enfin, affectées positivement pour vous et négativement pour elles?

858 M. BROSSEAU: Je vous dirais que les études ont révélé que la station probablement du secteur anglophone qui serait la plus affectée serait la Chaîne culturelle anglophone de Radio-Canada --

859 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Radio Two.

860 M. BROSSEAU:  -- parce que les gens n'ayant pas d'offres qui ressemblent à celles que nous proposons vont les chercher dans le marché anglophone. Mais je pense qu'on peut dire qu'on parle d'une partie assez importante. On parle de 30 pour cent des heures d'écoute des francophones qui sont dirigées vers les stations anglophones. Donc je pense que c'est l'ensemble des chaînes anglophones qui vont être affectées.

861 M. Paquette va pouvoir vous donner plus de détails.

862 M. PAQUETTE: Si je peux juste compléter --

863 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Oui, oui.

864 M. PAQUETTE: Je vais être bref. En fait, c'est que comme annonceur nous la façon dont on sélectionne une station de radio dans un marché c'est qu'on va regarder le coeur de la cible. Donc les stations du marché d'Ottawa actuellement qui diffusent comme des "oldies", du "country", s'adressent à un public un petit peu plus âgé seraient des stations qui seraient visées.

865 Maintenant, j'aimerais peut-être mettre un bémol sur l'impact que pourrait avoir cette station-là --

866 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: C'est tout à fait de mise un bémol.

--- Rires / Laughter

867 M. PAQUETTE: L'impact, on évalue à peu près sur l'ensemble des stations du marché, qu'elles soient de langue française ou anglaise, c'est à peu près de deux-dixièmes de 1 pour cent parce que du 7 pour cent de parts de marché que l'on prévoit, il y a en fait trois points qui proviennent d'une écoute nouvelle. Donc ce sont des gens qui n'étaient pas à la radio. Sur le solde il y a une proportion de stations de langue anglaise et française. Donc sur l'ensemble des stations du marché c'est assez marginal.

868 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Alors vous ne les ruinerez pas demain matin.

869 M. PAQUETTE: Non, je ne pense pas qu'il y ait personne qui va faire faillite demain.

870 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Maintenant, sur les stations francophones, quel serait l'impact sur les stations francophones du marché?

871 M. BROSSEAU: L'impact sur la table publicitaire du marché francophone est de moins de 3 pour cent.

872 Encore là, M. Paquette pourrait être plus spécifique.

873 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Alors on parle des stations commerciales, évidement. La RSC elle peut être impactée un peu plus durement, mais ça n'affecte pas ses revenus publicitaires, sinon ses côtes d'écoute. C'est ce que vous essayez de me dire?

874 M. BROSSEAU: Oui, d'une part il n'y a pas d'impact sur les revenus commerciaux qui n'existent pas à la Société Radio-Canada. Par ailleurs, le format musical est vraiment différent. On est portés à croire que ça se ressemble parce qu'on parle de musique classique, mais qu'on se rappelle que moins de 20 pour cent de la programmation de la Chaîne culturelle est vouée à la musique classique. Le mandat de la Chaîne culturelle est beaucoup plus large, et de ce fait n'est pas vraiment un concurrent en ce sens-là.

875 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Mais vous ne voyez pas d'effets négatifs, par exemple, s'il y a une partie de l'auditoire de la Chaîne culturelle, ou de Radio Two en l'occurrence, qui syntonise votre station sur les montants que la Société Radio-Canada, par exemple, pourrait investir au niveau de programmation originale ou une captation devant public?

876 M. PAQUETTE: Si vous permettez, à cette question-là, j'ai pris connaissance, naturellement, de l'intervention de la Société Radio-Canada et on ne peut pas transposer l'impact qu'a eu CJPX dans le marché de Montréal sur ce que sera la situation dans Ottawa pour une raison bien simple, c'est que la dynamique de marché est très différente. Si on observer la courbe d'écoute depuis cinq ans de CBOX à Ottawa, c'est une courbe qui est en dentier. Donc l'auditoire varie d'une saison à l'autre principalement par des choix de programmation qui sont faits par la Société elle-même et par les concurrents du marché.

877 Maintenant sur l'impact final des stations, comme en fait sur le 317 000 heures d'écoute que l'on prévoit pour la station de Radio Nord, l'impact sur la Chaîne culturelle de langue française ou anglaise est encore là à un maximum de notre estimé de trois-dixièmes de point. Donc on ne parle pas là d'une catastrophe sur la Chaîne culturelle ou même sur Radio Two.

878 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Radio Two. Bon, maintenant --

879 M. BROSSEAU: Si je pouvais ajouter une chose?

880 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Oui, Monsieur Brosseau.

881 M. BROSSEAU: Dans nos études ce qui nous est apparu c'est qu'on avait peut-être une vocation d'initiation et on préparait en ce sens-là les auditeurs à se diriger vers la Chaîne culturelle dans un deuxième temps.

882 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Vous seriez prêts à les laisser aller comme ça tout d'un coup après les avoir amenés à un point "X" ou les envoyer à l'université. C'est ça?

883 M. BROSSEAU: On a l'intention de les préparer et de les conserver partiellement par la suite, et de les partager avec la Chaîne culturelle.

--- Rires / Laughter

884 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Monsieur Brosseau, sur la carte -- c'est un petit plus technique mais ça vise la population -- en annexe 19 à votre demande. Sur la carte de périmètres de rayonnement, on semble voir -- ce matin, on a été gentils, on m'en a donné une que je pouvais lire parce que les autres franchement étaient petites.

885 La communauté urbaine, c'est la communauté urbaine de Hull qui va être prioritairement servie ou desservie par votre nouvelle station, et à la section 10.2 de votre demande vous avez indiqué que les estimations de population et de ménages proposées sont identiques pour les deux périmètres, soit 297 000 et des poussières en population, et 118 000 et des poussières en ménage.

886 Comment se fait-il que votre millivolt par mètre et votre population dans le 0,5 millivolt par mètre sont identiques, parce que si je regarde le dessin moi sur la carte, c'est pas mal plus grand.

887 M. BROSSEAU: Il s'agit, Madame la Conseillère, effectivement d'une erreur. Le détail pourrait vous être communiqué par M. Paquette.

888 M. PAQUETTE: Ce qu'on aurait dû lire dans le premier contour qui est le 0,5, je pense, je ne suis pas très fort en techniques --

889 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Celui qui est à l'extérieur c'est le 0,5 et le petit c'est le --

890 M. PAQUETTE: A l'intérieur on aurait dû lire 249 000 au lieu de 297 000. Ce qu'il est important de mentionner c'est que ça ne change pas l'impact sur le plan d'affaires parce que le plan d'affaires est monté sur le marché tel que découpé par BBM qui n'en fait pas un découpage circulaire comme le font les antennes, et ce marché-là correspond à 297 000 personnes.

891 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Puis votre plan d'affaires --

892 M. PAQUETTE: Ça n'affecte en rien le plan d'affaires.

893 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Absolument pas d'expansion sans la zone du 0,5 millivolt par mètre. J'ai toujours un peu de difficulté avec ces notions d'ingénierie.

894 Maintenant, dans vos dépenses de programmation -- et je veux juste que vous m'apportiez une précision. Je pense que je connais la réponse mais je veux l'entendre. Les autres demandes francophones prévoient des dépenses de programmation deux fois plus élevées que celles que vous proposez. Vous proposez des dépenses de 278 000 dollars pour la première année jusqu'à 308 000 pour l'an sept.

895 Est-ce que le fait que vos dépenses de programmation soient beaucoup moins élevées découle du format que vous avez choisi? C'est très musical.

896 M. BROSSEAU: Effectivement, cela découle également des revenus que nous escomptons réaliser ou générer dans le marché qui constituent une certaine limite. Par ailleurs --

897 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: J'aimerais que vous précisiez ce que vous voulez dire au niveau du format. Est-ce que c'est le paiement des droits principalement qui justifie le fait que vos dépenses de programmation soient moins --

898 M. BROSSEAU: Effectivement. Les éléments qui contribuent à nous permettre de réaliser une programmation à un coût aussi raisonnable sont essentiellement le format qui nous permet d'avoir un degré d'automation plus élevé que dans certains autres formats.

899 Il y a l'ensemble des synergies dont on parlait tantôt qui représente un montant d'au-delà 50 pour cent probablement du budget qu'on alloue à la programmation. Il y a les droits d'auteurs qui sont également sensiblement plus réduits que ce qu'on pourrait trouver dans d'autres formats musicaux. On parle de 50 pour cent de moins.

900 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Cinquante pour cent de moins en droits d'auteur dû au fait que la plupart des compositeurs sont morts et enterrés depuis fort longtemps.

901 Me CÔTÉ: C'est 1,5 pour cent plutôt que 3 pour cent comme droits.

902 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: D'accord.

903 Maintenant, est-ce que vous êtes préoccupés par la concurrence que pourraient vous livrer les titulaires qui sont bien implantés dans le marché de Hull/Ottawa?

904 M. BROSSEAU: Nous pensons que l'originalité de notre proposition en terme de format musical est telle que nous ne sommes pas vraiment en concurrence avec les deux formats adulte contemporain qui sont actuellement dans le marché.

905 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: D'accord.

906 Maintenant, là je tombe dans le technique alors comme diraient les Anglais, "Bear with me".

907 Votre requête est techniquement exclusive avec, je pense qu'on est rendus à quatre autres requêtes sur la même fréquence, avec la demande de M. Kirk, pour l'utilisation de la fréquence 97,9 MHz, c'est-à-dire le canal 250B1.

908 Dans un cas comme ça, le Conseil veut obtenir l'opinion de chacun des protagonistes pour déterminer à savoir quel titulaire propose l'utilisation optimale de la fréquence recherchée.

909 Pourquoi, selon vous, est-ce que le Conseil devrait vous accorder à vous plutôt qu'à Standard ou à Kirk ou à d'autres demandeurs, la fréquence 97?

910 M. BROSSEAU: Essentiellement, si on vous parle de la qualité de notre demande dans un environnement compétitif, je vous dirais que notre caractéristique principale est celle de la diversité. Nous pensons compléter plus adéquatement que la plupart de nos compétiteurs ce qui est offert actuellement aux auditeurs de la région francophone.

911 Nous avons visé -- si on parle de l'utilisation de la fréquence, je comprends, on peut faire allusion au fait que d'autres, comme Standard qui nous a précédé tantôt, visaient un bassin beaucoup plus important. Il faut se souvenir que nous le marché qui nous intéresse est le bassin francophone et que l'utilisation que nous faisons de cette fréquence-là nous permet d'atteindre d'une façon optimale le marché cible que nous visons. Il n'y a pas d'intérêt pour nous à déborder sur le secteur anglophone qui ne constitue pas un marché pour nous.

912 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Alors vous n'avez pas intérêt à avoir une tour de 650 pieds, je pense, dont on nous parlé tout à l'heure. Alors votre tour serait située --

913 M. BROSSEAU: Sur la Place Vincent Massey. Nous sommes les seuls à avoir choisi ce site, mais les critères qui nous ont amenés à ce choix sont des critères dans un premier temps -- et de loin le plus important était celui de bien toucher l'ensemble de notre groupe cible, et cet emplacement-là nous permet de le faire. Il y avait également un facteur économique, je dois avouer, compte tenu de notre budget qui est quand même restreint. Il y avait un élément économique qui faisait que c'était plus économique pour nous d'être sur la Place Vincent Massey qu'à la Place du Portage ou ailleurs.

914 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: D'accord.

915 Alors vous avez répondu avant même que je ne le demande à la deuxième partie de ma question qui était comment considérez-vous que cet usage optimal de la fréquence c'est en fonction du marché visé?

916 M. BROSSEAU: C'est juste.

917 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: D'accord.

918 Et ça c'est une question qui va revenir pour tous ceux qui sont sur cette fréquence-là, et je vais vous donner du temps pour revenir, peut-être au moment de la réplique, nous répondre là-dessus. Si on considère seulement l'aspect technique de votre position relativement aux autres requérantes qui convoitent la même fréquence, 97,9, comment évaluez-vous les paramètres techniques que vous avez soumis à Industrie Canada en terme de maximisation de l'utilisation potentielle offerte par le canal en question?

919 C'est-à-dire est-ce que si, par exemple, vous visiez un autre marché, comme on a vu Standard le faire ce matin, est-ce qu'il y a des possibilités techniques de maximiser l'utilisation de la fréquence? Je ne parle pas de la qualité de votre demande. Je parle seulement au point de vue technique.

920 Me CÔTÉ: Je ne suis pas certaine que je comprends bien la question. Voulez-vous dire l'usage d'autres fréquences?

921 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Non, de cette fréquence-là.

922 Me CÔTÉ: Mais dans quel sens?

923 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Est-ce que la fréquence que vous voulez obtenir ne pourrait pas être mieux utilisée à d'autres fins que celle que vous visez compte tenu des capacités techniques?

924 M. BROSSEAU: Comme je vous le mentionnais tantôt --

925 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Mais vous n'êtes pas obligé de me répondre maintenant. Vous pouvez revenir à la réplique là-dessus.

926 M. BROSSEAU: Techniquement on peut vous revenir en réplique avec une réponse qui serait effectivement plus élaborée que ce que mes connaissances techniques me permettraient de vous donner maintenant.

927 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Nous avons tous les deux fait un cours de génie par correspondance.

--- Rires / Laughter

928 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Maintenant, il y a toujours une question que nos services techniques nous demandent de vous poser. J'ai honte de vous la poser, mais je le fais quand même pour le dossier.

929 Est-ce que vous considéreriez une fréquence AM?

930 M. BROSSEAU: Je ne crois pas que nous pourrions considérer une fréquence AM dans les circonstances, spécialement compte tenu du format que nous proposons qui demande une qualité.

931 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: C'est ce que je pensais, mais c'est pour le dossier.

932 Maintenant, est-ce que vous avez envisagé d'autres fréquences FM que 97,9?

933 M. BROSSEAU: Nos experts techniques ont fait une étude de l'ensemble des fréquences qui étaient disponibles et, malheureusement, M. Labarre avec qui nous avons travaillé n'est pas ici ce matin. Je crois qu'il y avait une autre fréquence qui aurait été acceptable pour satisfaire notre besoin de bien atteindre notre marché cible, mais je vous avouerai que de mémoire je ne pourrais pas vous donner cette réponse. Mais il y en avait une autre sur les trois ou quatre --

934 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Est-ce que vous pourriez nous revenir au moment de la réplique avec la réponse à ça à ce moment-là?

935 M. BROSSEAU: Absolument. Nous vous ferons part d'une réponse plus complète au moment de la réplique.

936 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Alors avant de vous donner trois minutes, comme Madame Wylie l'a fait pour votre prédécesseur, pour nous dire pourquoi on devrait absolument vous donner cette licence, je pense que je vais vous passer aux mains des autres conseillers, s'ils ont des questions, ou de notre conseiller juridique, s'il en a.

937 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci, Madame Noël.

938 Peut-être que je peux ajouter quelque chose à cette question technique. Ce que nous remarquons, par exemple, si je comprends bien les cartes de couverture -- nous avons déjà entendu Standard, donc c'est la plus facile à comparer -- même en visant la population francophone, par exemple St-Pierre de Wakefield, semble être à l'extérieur complètement de même le 0,3 millivolt par mètre dans votre carte à vous, tandis qu'il est à peu près dans le milieu de cette bande donc pas tellement dépassé le trois millivolts par mètre dans le cas de Standard. Alors nous essayons d'examiner l'utilisation de la fréquence elle-même, est-ce qu'elle est utilisée à sa façon maximale ou optimale qui est un facteur évidement à soupeser.

939 Alors si je comprends bien votre carte, la couverture semble un être un peu tronquée vers le nord, qui est justement vers la population francophone et donc on inclurait on en viserait -- vous ne seriez pas entendus dans ces parties-là.

940 Alors peut-être qu'en consultant M. Labarre vous pourrez nous répondre davantage. Alors la question est simplement : Puisque 97,9 est demandé par plus d'une requérante, comment vous situez-vous vis-à-vis sont utilisation optimale? Et je comprends très bien que vous visez surtout vers le nord, mais il semble que l'utilisation que vous en faites justement tronque l'étendue de la couverture justement vers le nord où, j'imagine, la population francophone est plus --

941 M. BROSSEAU: Dispersée.

942 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Le ratio est plus élevé que dans l'est. La différence semble être surtout vers le nord. Alors c'est ça la question, c'est l'utilisation de la fréquence avec les coordonnées que vous avez -- il s'agit sans doute du pouvoir de l'antenne, et cetera -- pour vous entendre sur cette utilisation optimale. Vous avez entendu Standard nous dire que justement eux ils l'avaient utilisée à son maximum d'une façon optimale.

943 Alors voilà.

944 Madame Pennefather a des questions pour vous ainsi que M. Cardozo.

945 Madame Pennefather, s'il vous plaît.

946 CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER: Merci, Madame la Présidente.

947 Je voudrais retourner sur la programmation. Vous semblez miser beaucoup sur l'écoute des jeunes, Monsieur Brosseau, si j'ai bine compris les présentations et la demande. Mais, par contre, on voit souvent dans les études que l'auditoire, moi incluse, pour la musique classique est un peu plus âgé.

948 Pouvez-nous dire un peu plus sur comment spécifiquement le choix de musique, la présentation, la programmation en soit va attirer les jeunes? Vous avez peut-être mentionné quelques éléments, mais qu'est-ce qui va faire en sorte que ça sera une présentation classique? Est-ce que c'est le choix de musique? Est-ce que c'est le choix des annonceurs, disons, ou bien de la façon que c'est présenté?

949 M. BROSSEAU: Le groupe cible est les 35-64. L'auditoire qui est le plus à priori intéressé à ce format musical se situe dans ce groupe d'âge-là.

950 Ce que nous avons voulu faire, partant de l'expérience qui a été vécue et à Toronto et à Montréal, c'est d'essayer d'ajouter une touche d'intérêt additionnel pour les jeunes. Je pense que c'est une chose qui est plus facilement réalisable dans un plus petit marché comme celui de Hull/Ottawa que ça ne le serait à Toronto ou à Montréal, par exemple, et ce que nous voulons faire, comme vous le disiez si bien, c'est d'utiliser des animateurs plus jeunes, c'est-à-dire d'ajouter à notre auditoire de base qui va être le 36-64 un élément un peu plus jeune, un incitatif en étant plus près des écoles de musique, des jeunes au niveau des performances, des captations que nous allons faire d'événements dans le milieu.

951 Notre réalité fait que nous connaissons bien le marché. Nous sommes déjà bien connu dans ce marché-là et nous voulons essayer de développer une espèce de complicité du marché à un incitant sur les plus jeunes auditeurs que nous voulons développer pour offrir à nos annonceurs un éventail qui va être, lentement au fil des années, centré vers 25-54 plutôt que le 35-64.

952 CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER: Alors vous voyez pendant la période de licence un effort de changer le public cible, d'aller vers un public plus jeune?

953 M. BROSSEAU: Nous pensons que la présentation que nous allons faire de notre format musical va nous amener dès le départ à attirer une clientèle un petit peu plus jeune que ce que nos collègues à Toronto ou à Montréal on visé et atteint.

954 CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER: Alors est-ce qu'on peut prévoir, juste pour pousser le point un peu, que la sélection musicale va changer pendant ces années-là? Vous avez mentionné aujourd'hui un élément jazz même léger. Est-ce qu'il y a une possibilité que la sélection va changer pendant les années si vous avez un effort vers les jeunes?

955 M. BROSSEAU: Nous n'entrevoyons pas de faire évoluer le format musical. Nous entrevoyons dès le début de notre prestation d'avoir un élément à travers nos animateurs et à travers les événements que nous allons capter qui va être un peu plus jeune que ce que nos collègues font à Montréal ou à Toronto.

956 Peut-être que Denis pourrait nous donner plus de détails sur le --

957 M. BOUCHARD: Bien entendu, on va jouer beaucoup de musique classique contemporaine. Je pense que c'est important, c'est un attribut important, mais aussi les animateurs qui vont être sur l'antenne seront de jeunes animateurs qui sont évidement issus du milieu de la musique classique parce qu'en fait il faut vraiment comprendre ce qu'on fait en ondes, et quand l'animateur vient de ce milieu-là, bien il comprend bien les pièces, il présente bien les titres et généralement ce milieu-là comprend aussi tout le milieu artistique de la région de Hull/Ottawa.

958 On va recruter, entre autres, dans les camps musicaux, à l'Université d'Ottawa, dans le département de musique. Il y a plein de jeunes passionnés de la musique qui vont vouloir partager cette expérience-là avec des gens de 35-64 ans, mais avec des gens de leur âge aussi.

959 CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER: Merci.

960 Merci, Madame la Présidente.

961 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci.

962 Le Conseiller Cardozo, s'il vous plaît.

963 CONSEILLER CARDOZO: Merci, Madame la Présidente.

964 J'aimerais comprendre un peu plus votre message central, votre raison d'être pour ce service.

965 Vous avez parlé avec Mme Noël de la différence entre votre service et le service de la Chaîne culturelle, mais je pense qu'il existe des similarités entre les deux. Je pense qu'il y a beaucoup de similarités entre la Chaîne culturelle et votre service.

966 Je veux poser la question comme ça pour examiner le sujet de la publicité et marketing. Imaginez-vous votre publicité sur un autobus, par exemple, quel serait votre slogan ou votre message dans cinq ou six mots -- vous n'avez pas beaucoup de temps pour de longues phrases ou paragraphes. Juste dans cinq ou six mots, quel est votre message pour attirer les auditeurs?

967 M. BROSSEAU: Ce qu'on me suggère comme message en cinq ou six mots c'est "La plus belle musique du monde". Finalement, on se veut une voix de vulgarisation de ce qu'on conçoit être la plus belle musique du monde, et on veut la rendre plus accessible, on veut la présenter d'une façon beaucoup plus simple que la Chaîne culturelle de Radio-Canada peut le faire où les gens qui ne sont pas familiers avec l'opéra auront peut-être avoir des difficultés à écouter trois heures, un opéra en entier, pour ensuite écouter les commentaires et les critiques.

968 Chez nous, nous allons être plus spécifiques. On va attirer les gens avec des airs qu'ils connaissent déjà et en introduisant à travers ce répertoire des pièces de musique contemporaine, que ce soit François Cousineau ou d'autres compositeurs.

969 CONSEILLER CARDOZO: Et selon vous, ce message est assez clair pour les auditeurs pour faire une différence entre la Chaîne culturelle?

970 M. BROSSEAU: Je pense que la nature du service que nous allons proposer va établir clairement la différence entre la Chaîne culturelle et ce que nous offrons.

971 Je suggérerais que M. van Driel peut-être pourrait nous donner, en partant de leur expérience, la différence qui existe dans le marché avec Radio-Canada, la Chaîne culturelle.

972 CONSEILLER CARDOZO: S'il vous plaît.

973 MR. van DRIEL: Thank you.

974 I think the format itself will bring a different audience and when you look at the difference between Toronto and Montreal -- my own experience in Toronto is that CBC has a 2.2 share and our share in the fall was at 4.6. So there is obviously a need out there for people turning from one station to another.

975 There is obviously a difference in the format and the style, otherwise there wouldn't be such a difference in share, I would think.

976 In terms of how would you encapsulate a commercial classical music station in a phrase? It's not easy and we have gone over hours and hours in trying to figure that out ourselves. There are two words that we describe our station, and I think it captures a lot of classical music stations, is that "It's relaxing and it's enriching".

977 There are other catch-phrases you can say like, "Music without cobwebs", "Music without the stained glass", but that's one of the major things that a commercial classical radio station offers in any market.

978 I think what we have seen in the past for a couple of years has been incredibly encouraging in terms of not only the growth of audience for commercial classical music stations, but also the growth of a younger audience because part of the problem has been, not only for stations but arts organizations and arts groups, an aging population and an aging audience.

979 How do you get a younger audience? It is a huge challenge.

980 What we have seen in our own experience is that we have gained a younger audience, especially in 25-54, and that is slowly happening.

981 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: From your experience, can you tell us whether when you launched you had to convince people that there was a difference between your service and CBC Two, or was it clear to people that they were different services?

982 Was that your major competitor that you had to overcome?

983 MR. van DRIEL: There were a lot of things. We were the only ones when we started, and we had to overcome many things because we started in Cobourg and moved to Toronto. The big difference for us was obviously moving to Toronto.

984 I think at the outset, once we moved into the Toronto area, we found that there was an immediate recognition by audience of the differences between CBC and ourselves. That is becoming more and more evident.

985 Another question you could ask is how is the CBC different from commercial radio? That is another question that could be asked as well.

986 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Feel free to answer it.

987 MR. van DRIEL: It is a good question. You hear in terms of CBC Radio's performance and what they are doing in terms of Drive Time programming is more and more mimicking, I think, what commercial radio is doing, I know what we are doing in Toronto as well. Certainly the advertising budgets are huge.

988 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you,

989 Merci, Monsieur Brosseau; merci, Madame la Présidente.

990 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. van Driel, obviously one listens to a radio station for the music but also you may prefer the news. There is an assumption that there is too much talk on la Chaîne culturelle or Radio Two, but it may be what is attractive to some people. They want the classical music in between, but they want the news as well, if they use their radio station as background in the home or possibly in the office as well.

991 You would think that the spoken word component for some people is not a downside but a plus.

992 MR. van DRIEL: And that also shows in terms of marketing and how they attract their audience.

993 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

994 MR. van DRIEL: People certainly are attracted to the news coverage by the CBC, which they do very well.

995 THE CHAIRPERSON: And then stay tuned in between. Would you say that this is more important now that wall-to-wall music can be had by other means? There are now satellite delivered channels, et cetera.

996 The spoken word component becomes more important, because if all one wanted was music all the time there are other ways of getting it.

997 MR. van DRIEL: Well, that is a --

998 THE CHAIRPERSON: Or multiple CDs on one's own equipment, et cetera.

999 MR. van DRIEL: I think the thing that radio offers, CFMX or this station or CJPX, or any commercial radio station, is local immediacy that satellite transmission cannot provide; or even streaming. It is such a brave new world.

1000 I have spent hours in meetings? What does Internet mean? How do you make money on the Internet? I don't think anybody has; and who knows, maybe nobody will.

1001 THE CHAIRPERSON: I didn't mention the Internet.

--- Background noise / Bruit de fond

1002 THE CHAIRPERSON: Please, I have already asked this morning that all telephones be turned off, and all beepers.

1003 Nevertheless, Mr. Coallier's station is quite popular, and it has a minimal amount, if I understand. When I am in Montreal I listen to it, and I can work even because there is not much distraction. It is very popular, so one would have to try to see how to appeal to the greatest number.

1004 MR. van DRIEL: The other difference, I think -- and we were talking about CBC in that format -- is not only immediacy but also what importance the station has in the arts community. You cannot under estimate the power and the relevance of a classical music station within the community.

1005 THE CHAIRPERSON: Of the local involvement, you mean.

1006 MR. van DRIEL: Exactly, at every level.

1007 THE CHAIRPERSON: Which is perhaps less likely to occur, you suggest, from the CBC?

1008 MR. van DRIEL: Well, CBC is not commercial.

1009 THE CHAIRPERSON: You mean the attempt to connect in that fashion with the community as opposed to not having to because you are not trying to get revenues out of the market.

1010 MR. van DRIEL: It is an important venue for arts organizations to get the word out, which they don't have otherwise.

1011 THE CHAIRPERSON: And therefore whips up more connection and loyalty.

1012 MR. van DRIEL: Exactly.

1013 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

1014 Counsel, please.

1015 Me RHÉAUME: Merci, Madame la Présidente.

1016 Brièvement, Monsieur Brosseau, une radio classique populaire comme la vôtre ça fait tourner combien de pièces musicales classiques par semaine, à peu près, en moyenne?

1017 M. BROSSEAU: Monsieur Bouchard est mieux placé que moi pour vous répondre en terme de chiffres. La technique et les chiffres ne sont pas ma forte.

1018 M. BOUCHARD: Ce qu'il faut bien comprendre c'est que contrairement à une station Top 40 les chansons ne font pas toutes 4 minutes et demie. Alors pour nous c'est extrêmement difficile de dire combien de pièces on va jouer dans une heure. Ça peut varier entre six à quatre pièces dans l'heure.

1019 Me RHÉAUME: Alors si on fait les maths, par semaine ça nous donne quoi, entre 500 et 600, ça se peut ça? Et là on parle toujours du 70 pour cent de l'offre musicale qui est la musique classique. Entre 500 et 600 est-ce que ça marche?

1020 M. BOUCHARD: En fait quand vous dites 70 pour cent, c'est de l'offre de programmation parce qu'en fait ça va être 85 pour cent de l'offre musicale qui va être de la musique classique puisqu'il y a 15 pour cent de --

1021 Me RHÉAUME: Je m'excuse. J'avais compris que 70 pour cent de l'offre musicale était à la musique classique. Ce n'est pas le cas.

1022 M. BOUCHARD: En fait c'est 70 pour cent de la programmation qui va être de la musique classique.

1023 Me RHÉAUME: D'accord.

1024 M. BOUCHARD: Parce qu'il y a aussi 15 pour cent de contenu verbal.

1025 Me RHÉAUME: Alors il n'y a aucune Catégorie 2 dans votre offre musicale?

1026 M. BOUCHARD: Vous voulez dire --

1027 Me RHÉAUME: Je pense que Me Côté me fait signe que non.

1028 Me CÔTÉ: Bien c'est un format spécialisé qu'on demande, Catégorie 3.

1029 Me RHÉAUME: Mais un format spécialisé n'indique pas nécessairement 100 pour cent de Catégorie 3.

1030 Me CÔTÉ: Mais je pense que peut-être ça doit être précisé, la musique de Catégorie 3 c'est la musique de concert. Je pense que c'est la sous-catégorie 31, et puis la musique de jazz là c'est peut-être 34 -- je ne me souviens pas de ça -- mais pas de musique religieuse, pas de musique du monde et puis pas de folklore.

1031 Me RHÉAUME: Je pense que c'est important de peut-être avoir un embryon de réponse à ma première question, d'avoir une moyenne -- je ne vous demande pas un chiffre précis -- le nombre de pièces musicales de Catégorie 31 ou de musique classique par semaine en gros.

1032 M. BOUCHARD: En gros dans une semaine de diffusion -- est-ce que vous avez une calculatrice? Ça va me prendre cinq minutes et je vais vous donner une réponse. Environ 300, 350 pièce dans la semaine.

1033 Me RHÉAUME: Trois-cents, 350.

1034 M. BOUCHARD: C'est ça.

1035 Me RHÉAUME: Disons entre 300 et 400.

1036 M. BOUCHARD: Oui, mais comme --

1037 Me RHÉAUME: Ce qui veut dire que votre engagement au contenu canadien est entre 30 et 40 pièces musicales par semaine si on prend le minimum réglementaire de 10 pour cent. Est-ce que ça fonctionne ça à peu près?

1038 M. BOUCHARD: Oui, ça fonctionne.

1039 Me RHÉAUME: Ce n'est pas énorme.

1040 Me CÔTÉ: Bien les exigences du Conseil aussi dans cette catégorie-là ne sont pas énormes, c'est 10 pour cent.

1041 Me RHÉAUME: Exact, exact. Vous n'êtes pas savoir, Maître Côté, également que dans l'avis public de 1998 sur la radio commerciale le Conseil a indiqué que il était pour voir à ce que, ou s'il y a lieu d'augmenter ce minimum de 10 pour cent. Ça c'est il y a trois ans, en fait au mois d'avril 1998.

1042 Alors ce que vous nous dites c'est qu'actuellement il n'y a pas lieu de l'augmenter.

1043 Me CÔTÉ: Non, ce n'est pas ce que j'ai dit, mais je pense que M. Brosseau peut répondre à la question.

1044 M. BROSSEAU: Ce que nous offrons c'est le minimum prescrit au départ de la licence. Comme je le mentionnais tantôt, nous entrevoyons que l'effet d'entraînement que la création du service va amener ça nous permettrait vraisemblablement -- et ça s'inscrivait dans la ligne de pensée que vous nous soulevez maintenant -- éventuellement nous serions prêts à considérer, en cours de licence, d'augmenter de 10 à 15 pour cent le contenu canadien.

1045 Me RHÉAUME: A l'heure où on se parle, quelle est la raison pour cet engagement minimum de 10 pour cent? Est-ce que c'est tout simplement le règlement est là, on promet le minimum, ou s'il y a plus une question de disponibilité, de formats, d'attraits classiques populaires, et ainsi de suite?

1046 Si vous avez un message à nous laisser concernant cette offre minimum de 10 pour cent, ça serait quel message?

1047 M. BROSSEAU: Je ne pense pas que mon message va être de nature à influencer les politiques du Conseil à l'avenir, mais je vous dirais que nous avons procédé par l'expérience vécue à Montréal et à Toronto, et l'existence sur le marché d'un nombre limité de pièces, nous a suggéré de commencer avec un seuil de 10 pour cent.

1048 Me RHÉAUME: J'ai une question pour l'un des membres de votre panel, Monsieur Cousineau.

1049 Je ne vous prête pas une expertise au niveau réglementaire, mais par contre je vous prête une expertise au niveau de la musique comme compositeur-musicien professionnel.

1050 Est-ce que selon vous il y a un problème au niveau de la musique classique canadienne, au niveau de la disponibilité du produit?

1051 M. COUSINEAU: Je ne crois pas. Je crois qu'il y a beaucoup plus de produits qu'on en connaît. Il y a beaucoup plus de disques de belle musique -- quand on dit "classique", on veut dire de style classique -- que ce qui joue à la radio. Moi personnellement je ne joue qu'à CJPX et puis j'ai à peu près 15-20 collègues, confrères qui demandent juste de jouer et qui ont de la musique tout aussi belle puis canadienne neuve.

1052 En plus c'est que le processus est en train de faire des petits parce que ça fait quand même une quarantaine d'années que je me promettais de faire de la musique instrumentale mais je n'avais pas le temps de le faire. Mais là l'ayant réussi et ayant trouvé quelqu'un pour tourner les disques, là il y a beaucoup de musiciens qui veulent justement -- qui ont ces pièces-là à offrir. Alors moi je n'ai aucun problème pour le contenu canadien pour ce genre de stations.

1053 Me RHÉAUME: Alors si je vous disais que 30 ou 40 pièces musicales par semaine seront canadiennes, ce qui représente à peu près 10 pour cent, selon ce que vous me dites -- et je ne veux pas prêter d'intentions là -- c'est qu'il y a de la disponibilité en masse.

1054 M. COUSINEAU: Oui.

1055 Me RHÉAUME: A l'heure où on se parle.

1056 M. COUSINEAU: A l'heure où on se parle.

1057 Me RHÉAUME: Excellent.

1058 Maintenant, Monsieur Brosseau, si également à l'heure où on se parle le règlement disait 15 pour cent, ou encore si le règlement disait 20 pour cent, est-ce que vous seriez ici?

1059 M. BROSSEAU: C'est une question un peu hypothétique. Je vous dirais qu'à 15 pour cent nous serions probablement ici de la même façon. A 20 pour cent, je pense qu'on aurait un problème au niveau de l'approvisionnement, entre autres.

1060 Me RHÉAUME: Si le Conseil, dans sa sagesse, vous accordait une licence, à quel seuil de contenu canadien le projet devient-il non viable? A 15 pour cent vous avez dit que ça pourrait marcher. A 20 pour cent, peut-être pas.

1061 M. BROSSEAU: J'aimerais bien pouvoir répondre à ça mais si je vous donnais une réponse qui aurait du sens je devrais faire des recherches qui n'ont pas été faites. La réponse c'est que je ne veux pas vous donner de réponse en terme de pourcentage spécifique.

1062 Me RHÉAUME: Laissez-moi vous poser une question plus précise encore.

1063 Si le Conseil vous accorde une licence et vous dit, "Votre engagement minimum au contenu canadien doit être de 15 pour cent", est-ce que ça fonctionne?

1064 M. BROSSEAU: Je reprends ma réponse de tantôt. Ça fonctionne.

1065 Me RHÉAUME: Ça fonctionne, oui.

1066 M. BROSSEAU: Nous préférerions le faire après quelques années de présence dans le marché, mais si vous me dites que c'est ça ou rien, nous accepterions.

1067 Me RHÉAUME: Merci.

1068 Me CÔTÉ: Est-ce que je peux ajouter quelque chose, Maître Rhéaume?

1069 Me RHÉAUME: Absolument, Maître Côté.

1070 Me CÔTÉ: Tout d'abord, évidement la réglementation prévoit que c'est un plancher, c'est un minimum, donc évidement on peut s'élever au-dessus de ce minimum. Mais aussi hier en préparant cette audience avec les collègues de Toronto on a discuté de cette question-là et l'expérience sur le terrain à Toronto nous permet de penser que 15 pour cent c'est un seuil qui est réalisable de façon assez réaliste.

1071 Me RHÉAUME: Le 15 pour cent est réalisable?

1072 Me CÔTÉ: Oui, oui, avec les discussions qu'on a eues avec nos collègues.

1073 Merci.

1074 Me RHÉAUME: Merci, Madame la Présidente.

1075 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci, Maître Rhéaume.

1076 La parole est à vous maintenant, Monsieur Brosseau.

1077 M. BROSSEAU: Je vous remercie, Madame la Présidente, et je serais bref à l'instar de nos prédécesseurs.

1078 Je pense que notre projet est un projet important. Il est important pour tous les joueurs dans le système de radiodiffusion. Il s'agit d'une occasion de se développer comme joueur régional dans un domaine que nous connaissons bien. Je pense qu'également il est important de reconnaître cette réalité et de permettre à de plus petits joueurs comme nous de croître selon leur capacité.

1079 Les dernières années nous ont fait voir une vague de consolidation au niveau des grands joueurs. Je vous rappelle qu'il existe des petits joueurs comme nous qui ont l'intention de continuer d'assumer leur mission en régions et de mieux servir leurs populations et c'est l'objet de cette demande que nous comptons faire.

1080 Pour le public francophone de la région il s'agit d'un nouveau choix qui s'ajoute et pour les artisans de la musique classique, également de la région, cette nouvelle station peut représenter une chance de voir leurs produits diffusés par notre antenne et ainsi d'augmenter leur visibilité.

1081 Il est frappant de voir qu'il n'y a que deux fenêtres de diffusion pour la musique classique à travers le Canada et elles sont Toronto et Montréal. J'espère bien que vous nous permettrez d'ajouter Hull/Ottawa à ces deux précédents.

1082 Je vous remercie.

1083 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci, Monsieur Brosseau et vos collègues.

1084 Monsieur Cousineau, c'est votre première expérience réglementaire?

1085 M. COUSINEAU: Qu'est-ce que vous voulez dire? Ma première audition ici devant le CRTC?

1086 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Oui.

1087 M. COUSINEAU: Non. Je suis venu --

1088 LA PRÉSIDENTE: On vous a déjà vu à Montréal, je crois.

1089 M. COUSINEAU: Non, mais je suis venu en tant que président de la SOCAN, je suis venu en tant que président de la SODRAC, je suis venu en tant --

1090 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Mais c'est la première fois avec un panel de requérants.

1091 M. COUSINEAU: Oui, pour aider --

1092 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Alors voilà. Une autre plume à votre chapeau.

1093 M. COUSINEAU: Merci.

1094 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci beaucoup à tous et nous allons maintenant prendre la pause du déjeuner jusqu'à deux heures et demie.

1095 Alors nous reprendrons à deux heures et demie.

1096 We will be back at 2:30.

--- Upon recessing at 1250 / Suspension à 1250

--- Upon resuming at 1430 / Reprise à 1430

1097 THE CHAIRPERSON: Welcome everybody. Bienvenue à tous. We welcome you back to the afternoon session of our hearing.

1098 It would appear to us if our applicants are as well prepared as they have been today, that we may hear more than three tomorrow. Radio Enfant has already been advised that we may hear them tomorrow.

1099 If that were the case, of course, that would mean that we would start the next day with the next applicant in the list and things would get a little bit earlier in the week.

1100 If that is the case, we may have a shorter day on Friday.

1101 We will still only start the interventions on Monday morning.

1102 Alors il est fort possible que nous entendions quatre demandes demain. On a déjà avisé Radio Enfant de ce fait. Si tel était le cas, évidement les requérantes seraient entendues un peu plus tôt pendant la semaine dans le même ordre qui est déjà établi dans l'ordre du jour, et ce qui voudrait dire que possiblement nous aurions une journée plus courte vendredi.

1103 Nous n'entendrons pas les interventions avant lundi, c'est-à-dire les interventions du public. Nous avons toujours l'intention d'entendre les requérantes dans leurs interventions vendredi. Alors voilà.

1104 I'm sorry, Mr. Lombardi.

1105 Madame la Secrétaire.

1106 Mme POIRIER: Merci, Madame la Président.

1107 The next application will be presented by Radio 1540 Limited to carry on a specialty FM ethnic radio station in Ottawa/Hull.

1108 The new station would operate on frequency 97.9 MHz, Channel 250B1, with an effective radiated power of 800 watts.

1109 By condition of licence, the applicant will direct ethnic programming to a minimum of 37 cultural groups in a minimum of 20 different languages per broadcast week.

1110 Mr. Lombardi, if you want to introduce your panel, please.

APPLICATION

1111 MR. L. LOMBARDI: Thank you very much.

1112 Good afternoon, Madam Chair, Commissioners.

1113 I am Lenny Lombardi and I am President of CHIN Radio 1540 Limited.

1114 It is a pleasure to appear before you today to present our application for the first local ethnic radio station here in the Nation's Capital.

1115 Before we begin our presentation, I would like to introduce the members of our panel.

1116 With me today are, of course, my father, Johnny Lombardi, founder and chairman of CHIN Radio; Angelina Cacciato, a long-time resident of Ottawa/Hull, our Community Advisor and a member of our Local Advisory Board; Mr. Bob Culliton, our Vice-President and General Manager of CHIN Radio.

1117 At the table behind me, starting on your far right, are: Debra McLaughlin, President of Strategic Inc. and Vice-President of Airtime Sales Inc., a leading expert in radio market research; and Dr. Karim H. Karim, a Professor in the School of Journalism and Communications at Carleton University and a consultant to this application; my sisters, Donina Lombardi-Hartig, an on-air radio and television broadcaster and Vice-President of Public Relations of CHIN Radio; and my sister Theresa Lombardi, Vice-President of Administration; and, finally, John Hylton of the law firm Borden Ladner & Gervais, our legal counsel for this application.

1118 In addition, I would like to identify some of the local community leaders who have agreed to be members of our Local Advisory Board. Some of them are in the audience with us today.

1119 To begin with: Anna Chiappa is Executive Director of Canadian Ethnocultural Council; Mr. Carl Nicholson, Executive Director, Catholic Immigration Centre; Mr. Lucio Appolloni, Co-Founder of Villa Marconi; Cliff Gazee, Board President, Somerset West Community Health Centre; Dr. Gihad Shabib, Egyptian Cultural Canadian Association; Rowena Tolson, Vice-President of the Chinese Community Association of Ottawa; and, finally, Angelo Filoso, Founding Director of the Italian Canadian Community Centre of the NCR.

1120 Commissioners, we sit before you today with great pride about what we have been able to accomplish, with your help, over the past 35 years.

1121 We would like to begin our presentation with a brief video introducing our company and our long-standing commitment to multicultural and multilingual broadcasting.

--- Video presentation / Présentation vidéo

1122 MR. J. LOMBARDI: It is now my turn.

1123 As you can see from the video, CHIN is a successful ethnic broadcasting company, with a dynamic spirit and a distinguished history.

1124 We pioneered ethnic broadcasting in Toronto in the late 1960s. Today we are proud to say that CHIN-AM 1540 and CHIN-FM 100.7 are a vital part of daily life in ethnic communities throughout the Greater Toronto Area. These radio stations provide a rich cultural mosaic of entertaining and informative programming.

1125 CHIN has led the way in responding to ongoing technical changes in the broadcasting industry. We were one of the first to make use of remote location broadcasts. Our radio services have been available on satellite throughout the country for more than a decade.

1126 We are also active in ethnic television broadcasting. We produce multicultural and multilingual television programming every week for distribution on Citytv in Toronto and on CHFD-TV in Thunder Bay.

1127 Our application proposes a much needed ethnic radio service here in Ottawa/Hull. It will also allow CHIN to take the next logical step in its development as a strong Canadian ethnic broadcasting company.

1128 MR. L. LOMBARDI: Thank you, Dad.

1129 There are 21 English and French-language radio stations available over-the-air in Ottawa/Hull. While these radio stations provide over 2,600 hours of English and French-language programming each week, there are only about 40 hours of ethnic programming available, leaving a significant portion of the population unserved.

1130 Our research and community consultations clearly show that there is a clear and strong need for a local ethnic radio station here in Ottawa/Hull.

1131 MR. KARIM: Ottawa/Hull is a diverse and vibrant cosmopolitan community with a rapidly growing ethnic population and a wide variety of multicultural events and activities.

1132 Over one million people currently reside in Ottawa/Hull. Some 360,000 people, or more than one-third of the population, are of minority ethnic origin. Of those people, almost half are immigrants. Ottawa/Hull is expected to continue to attract a large share of new immigrants.

1133 This community has important needs that can only be met by strong local ethnic media such as the local ethnic radio station proposed by CHIN.

1134 CHIN's new radio station will provide newcomers with a bridge between the "old country" and the "new country". It can help to integrate newcomers into the community and into the Canadian society as a whole by providing local and national news and information in third languages.

1135 It can help grandchildren to talk to their grandparents and provide opportunities for cross-cultural communication. The CHIN radio station will offer a Canadian alternative to foreign services that are widely available on satellite and on the Internet.

1136 The expansion and growing success of the ethnic broadcasting industry in Canada is demonstrative of this country's traditional respect and support for racial minorities and for cultural diversity. Evidence of that respect is particularly important here in the Nation's Capital, the political centre of our democratic and pluralistic country and the birthplace of Canada's multiculturalism policy, a policy admired around the world.

1137 MS McLAUGHLIN: There is strong demand for the CHIN radio station among both listeners and advertisers. CHIN asked Pollara, one of Canada's leading public opinion research companies, to measure the level of interest in Ottawa-Hull in a local multicultural and multilingual radio service. That research clearly shows that the ethnic radio station proposed by CHIN would be a welcome addition to the market.

1138 An overwhelming 72 per cent of ethnic respondents said that they would likely listen to the station. Eighty-six per cent of all respondents agreed that the licensing of the CHIN radio station would be a positive step.

1139 Only 13 per cent of ethnic respondents said that they were very satisfied with the quality of ethnic radio programming currently available to them. Ethnic respondents also expressed a strong need for increased access to news and information programming.

1140 CHIN asked Strategic Inc. to assess the economic viability of a new, ethnic FM radio station in Ottawa-Hull. Our research shows that the CHIN radio station will fill a programming and advertising void in the market. There is a considerable pent-up demand for a third language radio programming and advertising inventory in this market.

1141 As such, we project that the new radio station will attract advertising revenues in the range of $900,000 in year one, increase to $1.6 million in year seven. Revenues of that magnitude can easily be accommodated within the market with the least impact of any applicant on existing local radio stations.

1142 MS CACCIATO: Good afternoon.

1143 I have ben actively involved with the multicultural community in Ottawa-Hull for many years and in many different ways, as a producer of television programs, as a teacher, as President of the Kaleidoscope Council and a founding member of the Media Resources Advisory Group and to different community organizations and a Director of many different organizations such as the Ottawa-Carleton Immigrant Services Organization and the National Capital Alliance on Race Relations.

1144 We have prepared this presentation after consultation with many organizations, community leaders and elected officials. We have heard many stories of the need for this type of programming.

1145 For example, there is a local Polish community that offers a poetry contest for its children. CHIN could have showcased that.

1146 The Indo-Canadian community organization could have mobilized more support and would have realized that support more quickly for the payment of their centre had there been a CHIN. The Italian community could have used CHIN radio in its fundraising activities for Villa Marconi.

1147 But the most dramatic illustration for the need for a third language radio station was demonstrated in the 1998 ice storm. Due to the severe weather conditions, many area schools were forced to close.

1148 For some reason the children who came to school were those of immigrant families whose parents did not speak either English or French. They did not know about the school closings. There is no need in Canada in this day and age for any community to be so isolated.

1149 MR. L. LOMBARDI: Thank you, Angelina.

1150 Our vision for CHIN's radio station in Ottawa-Hull is based on more than 35 years of experience in ethnic radio broadcasting and our understanding of the needs of the local community.

1151 Ninety-eight per cent of our programming will be ethnic. It will include a mix of talk, news and music, with a strong emphasis on information. From our research and community consultations, we know that the ethnic community in Ottawa-Hull wants and needs much increased access to news and information in their mother tongue or heritage language.

1152 Our programming will be very diverse and community-responsible. We will service at least 37 distinct ethnocultural groups in at least 20 different languages. We will work with the associate producers from each of the local ethnic communities to develop programming that best meets their needs and reflects their interests.

1153 The programming schedule will be consistent and reliable throughout the week to ensure that listeners can always find the programming directed specifically towards them. We will offer local cross-cultural programming that addressed a wide variety of interesting topics.

1154 We will augment local programming with regional call-in shows. These shows will be jointly produced by our radio stations in Toronto and Ottawa-Hull. They will create an important and valuable opportunity for the exchange of views between ethnic communities in these two major urban areas in Ontario.

1155 CHIN has been contributing to the achievement of the objectives of the Ethnic Broadcasting Policy and the Broadcasting Act for many years. With this licence, we will be able to do much more.

1156 The Ethnic Broadcasting Policy requires that 7 per cent of all musical selections in ethnic programming be Canadian. We will exceed this minimum. Ten per cent of our musical selections will be Canadian. In addition, we are proposing to contribute $408,000 to Canadian talent development over the term of our licence.

1157 Our Canadian talent development initiatives will directly target ethnic Canadian talent and will include an annual ethnic songwriting competition for aspiring songwriters; a mentoring program for local ethnic musicians; scholarships for undergraduate students at area post-secondary institutions; contributions to Canadian Music Week, Factor/Music Action and support for the establishment of a catalogue of Canadian ethnic recordings.

1158 Above and beyond our Canadian talent development commitments we are also proposing to contribute $35,000 over the term of the licence to support the production of ethnic radio programming and the training of the next generation of ethnic broadcasters at local campus stations CKCU and CHUO.

1159 A further major benefit for local audiences is our plan to produce local multicultural and multilingual television programming. We will enter into an agreement with the NewRO similar to our agreement with Citytv in Toronto.

1160 MS LOMBARDI-HARTIG: At CHIN we have a long tradition of active community involvement. We publicized and celebrated Toronto's multicultural diversity long before it became the official policy of our country.

1161 The annual CHIN picnic, our signature event, is a nationally recognized multicultural celebration. This year we are celebrating its 35th anniversary.

1162 We will be just as active here. We will provide broadcast coverage of and participate in the wide variety of events and activities that occur throughout the year in this vibrant multicultural community.

1163 We will establish a local advisory board to help us be as community-responsive as possible. The members of the Board will be broadly representative of the local ethnic communities. They will provide advice, assistance and guidance on all aspects of the operation and programming of our proposed new radio station.

1164 MS T. LOMBARDI: Our application includes substantial commitments to high quality programming, Canadian content and Canadian talent development. We can consider such exciting and bold initiatives because of our ability to achieve operating efficiencies and synergies.

1165 For example, the staff at our new radio station will benefit from CHIN's long-established and proven training and development programs. We will control administrative costs by relying on centralized engineering, accounting, financial and traffic systems.

1166 The new radio station will also have access to our established music libraries, Canadian and international news feeds and to regional programming. In addition, the station will benefit from significant cross-promotional opportunities with other CHIN radio stations and with CHIN multicultural and multilingual television programming on the New RO.

1167 MR. L. LOMBARDI: We believe that we have demonstrated that there is a need for and a demand for a local ethnic radio station.

1168 Over one-third of the population of Ottawa-Hull is of ethnic origin and would benefit from the programming our radio station would provide.

1169 We believe that our proposed new radio station would best reflect and serve the needs of ethnic communities in Ottawa-Hull and would make the most significant contribution to achieving the objectives of the ethnic broadcasting policy and the broadcasting act, for the following reasons.

1170 Our radio station would provide diverse, high quality local and regional ethnic programming, serving many different ethnocultural and linguistic groups.

1171 It would significantly increase choice and diversity by offering the first local ethnic radio service and by introducing many new voices into the local radio market.

1172 We have made substantial commitments to Canadian content and Canadian talent development and would further enhance choice and diversity for local audiences through the production of local multicultural and multilingual television programming.

1173 Our proposal is based on a carefully researched business plan that reflects our long experience in ethnic broadcasting, extensive community consultations and the potential for significant operating synergies.

1174 CHIN Multicultural Radio Ottawa would be locally responsive to its organization and operation, with an effective and involved local advisory board.

1175 There is clear evidence that the Ottawa-Hull radio market can support our proposed new radio station, with minimal impact on existing local radio stations.

1176 I would like to thank the many people who took time to meet with us as we developed this application and the more than 1,200 individuals and organizations that filed supporting interventions.

1177 Thank you, and we welcome your questions.

1178 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Lombardi and family and colleagues.

1179 Commissioner Pennefather, please.

1180 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you, Madam Chair.

1181 Good afternoon and indeed welcome to Ottawa.

1182 I have questions in a number of areas: precisely, listener demand, an area you have covered, but I have a few more clarifications; your approach to programming, particularly local reflection and how the various groups will be served; Canadian Talent Development; your business plan; the role of the advisory board, and some technical issues.

1183 Before we go through each of those areas, I would like to go back to a general question about your approach to creating this ethnic service in Ottawa-Hull.

1184 The area that interests me was spoken to this afternoon by Theresa Lombardi, when you talked about synergies.

1185 This is a concept which we see discussed quite often in the application and today. I think it would be important to start there and get a better understanding of how you see the Ottawa service evolving.

1186 For example, in your supplementary brief, on page 7, you describe this opportunity to use 97.9 FM frequency as a way to supplement CHIN's existing AM and FM stations in the Toronto market; to serve an ever-growing unserved and underserved ethnic audience in Ontario.

1187 That is on page 7.

1188 On the previous page you talk about this proposal as a unique concept for Ottawa.

1189 I think one of the areas I would like to understand better is how you see these synergies working between Toronto and Ottawa.

1190 At first blush the Ottawa concept would appear to be a supplement to Toronto, and the question then becomes: How far are the synergies that you are proposing going to take the proposal?

1191 Could you give us an overview, Ms Lombardi, of how the synergies work specifically and how they work to support an Ottawa ethnic station, in the sense that I think that has a really basic place in your understanding of how an ethnic station in this market should work.

1192 I would like to have a clearer understanding of that.

1193 MR. L. LOMBARDI: Thank you, Commissioner.

1194 I would be pleased to address this issue with regard to synergies, because we believe very strongly that this is a very important component of our ability to make CHIN Radio Ottawa successful.

1195 With respect to our supplementary brief and how we talk about our CHIN AM and FM stations in Toronto, I think one of the key synergies that that station, or our experience with respect to ethnic broadcasting, is the experience as we have had as ethnic broadcasters for the last 35 years.

1196 More than anything, when we speak of CHIN Radio Toronto, it is those particular synergies that we would be able to bring to bear on a station here in Ottawa.

1197 Those synergies are both from an intellectual approach to ethnic broadcasting, based on everything we have learned, and also to the point of how we can share costs and bring events and experiences and knowledge to the development of our programs.

1198 Synergies can take the form of many things, but most importantly it is the sharing of resources that a stand-alone operation in Ottawa-Hull may not be able to afford to acquire as quickly as we could afford to bring them to the station.

1199 Examples are in just back office support: accounting, traffic, software programs, production.

1200 Establishing a radio station to serve 37 communities in 20 languages requires a fairly immense music library. These are additional synergies that are available to an operation in Ottawa, established from our station in Toronto.

1201 I should clarify that we don't regard the Ottawa station as a supplement to Toronto. It is something that I think provides new and exciting programming for the Ottawa area with respect to our regional programs. I think those are some dramatic synergies that we feel very strongly with respect to.

1202 The issues that affect local ethnic communities are often shared throughout the country. We see quite a few similarities with the Italian community in Toronto and the Italian community in Ottawa, or the south Asian community or the Chinese community.

1203 We recognize that the programming content of some programs can be shared, which reflects a regional approach to our programs but with a real local style to them.

1204 What we propose to do with these synergies is connect those communities to one another: have Toronto audiences discussing and talking about issues that affect them on a broad scale but also hear from, and exchange views and ideas with, the Ottawa audience.

1205 Both those programs, in the way they would work, would be hosted by local personalities at the two radio stations. The programs would be connected via ISDN lines and there would be free talk between the two.

1206 In effect, we are really merging those two communities into one over very specific topics that we think are going to be synergistic in themselves.

1207 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: You have answered my question quite well, because you covered the area which is fairly straightforward, which is shared resources, for example, and shared music library.

1208 But you also touched on what I was particularly interested in. From your 35 years of experience, you say this is a concept which you think will work.

1209 If I have heard you correctly -- and we will go back to the specific programming idea, the open line programming and the cross-cultural programming -- they are coming from your experience as to what kind of ethnic station is required. That is what I was interested in hearing about.

1210 What that experience has shown you would appear, to us, to be a station which is really designed to create exchange between Toronto and Ottawa. That seems to be a strong overriding concept in your approach.

1211 Am I correct?

1212 MR. L. LOMBARDI: I would say it is a component of it. To be specific, it equates to 15 hours of programming a week.

1213 We envisage a regional talk show linking the Italian, south Asian and Chinese communities for one hour a day, Monday to Friday.

1214 Although it is what we consider an important part of our programming, I don't consider it a dominant part of it.

1215 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: I recognize that, and we will get back to the 15 hours. When you were expounding on your overall philosophy, shall we say, for the station I think it seemed to play a very strong role.

1216 Then from your consultations you have found that this is something that is in demand. This exchange between Toronto and Ottawa is in demand and will meet a certain need?

1217 MR. L. LOMBARDI: Yes, in fact our consultations and our involvement in the Ottawa/Hull area has led us to that conclusion.

1218 We have been broadcasting via satellite on cable FM in the Ottawa area for 10 to 15 years. We have been providing our signal via satellite and cable companies have been downloading it and distributing it via cable.

1219 As well, we have been broadcasting 10 hours of multilingual programming to the Ottawa area on Citytv, and prior to that on Global. So we have been broadcasting multicultural programs to Ottawa since the early '70s.

1220 We create a lot of events in Toronto and we often are visited by members of the ethnic community to our events in Toronto. So we are constantly in touch with and interacting with members of this community at our events in Toronto. Time and time again we recognize the need from this community to start to establish and experience and enjoy some locally produced events.

1221 We find that because of the proximity and the reality of that, so many from the communities travel to Toronto, there is a connection. There is a connection of familiarity through our programs, there is a connection of going to major cultural events that take place in Toronto that are enjoyed.

1222 Many members of this community have family in Toronto. So there is a distinct connection between the two cities.

1223 We recognize a unique opportunity to bring those three communities together, but not in a shared programming sense of just listening to the same music at the same time, but actually communicate; communicating and discussing issues as what their view on the political climate is and what their view is on mixed marriages, for that matter.

1224 I think it is a very beneficial and an enriching experience to be able to talk and share experiences from one culture and one community from another. Because there are lots of similarities, but there are a lot of things that are different and it is interesting to hear about those things.

1225 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you for that.

1226 There is another general question about your approach that you just raised in fact, that you are already present in this area, market if you will, with multicultural programming and have been for some time. To not put too fine a point on it, then, why is a new ethnic radio station necessary?

1227 You, in fact rightly, underline the fact that you are well-known in the community through the television programming particularly, but in analysing, as we will, what is and isn't available for the ethnic communities here in the Ottawa/Hull region, why a radio station at this time?

1228 MR. L. LOMBARDI: Our current programming that is available in Ottawa/Hull is simply just a rebroadcast of our Toronto programming and it has no local reflection of the community in Ottawa. It doesn't provide or allow any interaction or involvement of the communities which are receiving these programs.

1229 So, for all intents and purposes, it could be coming from anywhere. I guess the benefit of the fact that it is coming from Toronto develops some strong relationship with the city, but it is in fact a rebroadcast.

1230 Why we feel so strongly about an ethnic station in Ottawa today is because it is an opportunity to really consolidate the advantages and benefits that we have developed over the last 35 years of ethnic broadcasting and launch a dedicated local, original ethnic radio station here in the Ottawa area for the over 360,000 members of the ethnic community here.

1231 We feel that through our research and through our consultations and our knowledge of this community, when we went and met with local organizations and talked about the notion of an ethnic station, we weren't just met with passing agreement, we were met with real passion and concern that this opportunity might pass us by and that they were very, very supportive of this concept.

1232 In fact, in an opportunity to meet many members from the ethnic community we gathered at Sala San Marco about a month and a half ago to introduce the concept and to talk further to many members of the community that expressed interest in knowing more about it.

1233 So we had representation from all the ethnic communities under one roof.

1234 A comment was made to me by someone who is active in the ethnic communities that this was one of the first times they had seen so many different members from so many different ethnic communities gathered under one roof talking about one common issue and one common goal.

1235 That essentially is what ethnic broadcasting is all about, is bringing people together under one umbrella and uniting them in a common goal. That is what local radio can do and that is what is not happening in Ottawa today.

1236 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Let's go through that, then, in more detail and discuss listener demand and what you think it is more precisely and why your approach, part of which we see up here in the chart, works for that demand.

1237 I would like to start getting at that with Mr. Karim's study and just a few questions to embellish the detail there.

1238 You describe the need in this market. Can you let us know the questions that you posed and the interests in the programming, and particular kinds of programming?

1239 Two things about it that I'm interested in.

1240 One, Mr. Lombardi, you said that the listener demand for ethnic programming in Toronto and Ottawa seem to be the same in many ways. What is different about the ethnic programming demands here in the Ottawa area, and I think, Mr. Karim, your report describes the Ottawa market, describes the needs, describes what is currently available in this market.

1241 Could you expand a little bit on specifically what the demand is here? Not why it is similar to Toronto, but what is it here? What is the particular interests and what is missing for the ethnic communities here?

1242 MR. L. LOMBARDI: Maybe if I could just jump in, Karim --

1243 MR. KARIM: Sure.

1244 MR. L. LOMBARDI: -- to just answer the question from my perspective.

1245 I think each community, regardless of their national background, is very distinctive with respect to the society in which they live. So the Italian and South Asian and Chinese communities in Ottawa are certainly quite distinct from the Toronto area.

1246 They do share some similarities. They share the similarity of being a new Canadian and facing language difficulties, or facing second and third generational gaps that are unique to them because of the cultural clashes as you are integrating into Canadian society.

1247 But having said that, I think every ethnic group in Canada wants and needs a voice for expression and that is reflected in their social connection with the city in which they live. That in itself will determine the differences between how an Italian in Ottawa relates to his environment than an Italian in Toronto, because they are living in two different cities.

1248 As a local programmer, and our association with associate producers who are from this community, we strive to seek out and reflect that reality to that community. What makes those regional programs so interesting is that is when we get to compare notes about how we view the world in which we live.

1249 So that is my opinion.

1250 Karim.

1251 MR. KARIM: A couple of points come to mind.

1252 First of all, the mix of population is different here compared to Toronto. For example, we have a larger proportion of Arabic-speaking people in Ottawa. In fact, Arabic is one of the larger third languages in this region. Whereas Toronto may be -- I suppose the demand and the kind of programming that may be in Arabic, there may be different demands, different kinds of listenership. Here I imagine there is a much larger need for that.

1253 A student of mine is currently doing a study of the way that Arab families are using broadcasting. She has found that there is a number of Arab families basically in which the men, the father figure, has gone back to the Middle East for employment opportunities, better employment opportunities.

1254 These women are basically connected by satellite. They have very little access to Canadian content, because in Ottawa there is very little Arabic broadcasting. So this would speak to a very, very important need which is being met by a foreign service and very little Canadian content, I suppose, is getting to these families at the present.

1255 Secondly, the amount of broadcasting generally available here is less. There is about 40 hours available through -- 40 hours of local broadcasting that is available in various languages to the ethnic communities, and this in itself is a problem.

1256 There is a feeling out there that if there was more time certain events would be covered off, for example the Lebanese festival, the Egyptian Festival, the Italian Festival, would receive more coverage, which isn't happening.

1257 So the basic dearth of airtime, local airtime, is the major difference between here and Ottawa.

1258 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: The 40 hours you mention, I'm glad you raised that and in your paper I think you describe I think close to that number. Can you tell us what that 40 hours is made up of? Is it television, is it radio and which languages and which groups are served within those 40 hours?

1259 MR. KARIM: The 40 hours are referring to the broadcasting by CKCU and CHUO so that's radio primarily.

1260 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Those are the campus stations.

1261 MR. KARIM: That's right. Of course, this is local programming. We are not adding the cable services or any other satellite services to that. The communities served by CKCU are the Jewish, South Asian, Vietnamese, Haitian, African, Lebanese, Muslim, Croatian, Polish, Caribbean, Korean and Spanish groups.

1262 By CHUO, which is the Ottawa University Station, 15.5 hours of serving the Muslim, Caribbean, Chinese, Spanish, African, African-Canadian, Korean, German and South Asian groups.

1263 As far as the half hour slots for various minority communities on Rogers Television Community Channels, you have got these half hours basically dedicated to the Caribbean, Afghani, Ukrainian, Armenian, Syrian, Indian, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, Hispanic, Hungarian, Lebanese, Vietnamese, Pakistani, Turkish, German and Polish viewers on an irregular basis, as I point out in my paper, because if there is another event that is taking place that's live, perhaps a sports event, a political event, these are the first to be bumped.

1264 Also, they keep changing their places on the schedule, so they don't build up a regular viewership. Personally, I am interested in watching South Asian programming. I have great difficulty figuring out when and where. Neither TV Guide nor the TV Times in the Ottawa Citizen carry these listings, so it's very, very difficult to find them.

1265 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you. So the irregularity and then the rather extensive list you read off, which is in your report on page 15, one would assume then that the amount of time per language varies as well. Is it mostly news, talk or is it music or all of the above?

1266 MR. KARIM: The programs that I have looked at, it varies from program to program. Music is a major component. Talk, some community announcements. Sometimes there may be -- in the case of a special event like, for example, the earthquake in Gujarat, a whole number of interviews may take place with fundraisers and so on, so it varies.

1267 Primarily the regular formats mostly include music, I would imagine about 5 to 10 per cent of talk which would include news and community announcements.

1268 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you. You understand it's important to have a sense of what is currently happening. I wasn't getting enough of the picture of what actually was the sounds and the visuals that people would have aces to. The Pollara report --

1269 MR. L. LOMBARDI: I'm sorry, Madam Chair, Agelina did want to make a comment on the subject as well.

1270 MS CACCIATO: I just wanted to expand on what Dr. Karim has been saying. The problem with the ethnic broadcasting that we have in Ottawa is that it is community-based. A lot of the community producers have little control over what happens to them.

1271 A few years when I was with the Kaleidoscope Council, we used to have an hour of programming per community group a week, so the Italians would have a week, the Caribbeans would have a week, the Chinese -- sorry, would have an hour a week and so on.

1272 The fact that we have so many different groups using the community programming really speaks to the fact that they really wanted, needed and use it as much a possible. So they were actually the first ones to take advantage of community programming when the CRTC mandated it to the various cable companies.

1273 What happened though 15 years ago was that as other community groups started to understand the usefulness of community programming, the ethnic groups got bumped out. In fact, Kaleidoscope Council, with its many community producers, came to the CRTC and was asking for some type of regularity in the community programming, more hours in their community programming, which they didn't have because the cable operators had no mandate saying they had to do "X" number of hours of community programming.

1274 The fact that we have such a vibrant participation of ethnic groups in community programming really speaks to the need. In fact, the Italian community, recognizing that the one hour of community programming per month was not enough for them, turned around, fundraised, got their own editing facilities, got their own camera, so even though they used the Ottawa -- the Rogers studios once a month, they still provide what they originally started off with, which is an hour a week of Italian broadcasting.

1275 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you. We will come back to that point. I think you have raised one of the crucial issues here and that is quality and time available.

1276 Just before we leave the background research that you did with your application, the Polaris study raises another two questions I would like some further discussion on.

1277 In the Pollara report, as noted on page 3 of the report, 86 per cent of the ethnic population learned either English or French as their first language. Have you considered -- do you know what that breakdown is and have you considered francophone listeners from the ethnic community in your programming choices under approach?

1278 MR. L. LOMBARDI: Before I turn it over to Debra to speak in more detail on that, we have looked at that issue, but with respect to -- our mandate is at the broadcasters. We feel that there is a distinct and definite need for third language programming that is culturally driven and directed to the ethnic makeup of Ottawa-Hull.

1279 The priority for us is ethnic programs and, secondly, priority is in third languages. As an ethnic broadcaster as the policy dictates we need to serve languages other than English, French or aboriginal, so that was our direction so we didn't factor in French.

1280 However, with respect to other than third language programming, i.e. some of the regional talk shows or in particular the cross-cultural programming which would not be done in third language, that would be really left up to the audience and the hosts and the topic whereby we would be able to host that program and take calls in either official language, English or French.

1281 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you, Mr. Lombardi. I'm sorry, Ms McLaughlin. I cut you off.

1282 MS McLAUGHLIN: No. If Mr. Lombardi has answered the question then I won't risk unanswering it.

1283 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Well, we will try one more on the Polaris study. It's another theme which I found fascinating in the Mr. Karim's report as well.

1284 One of the challenges that you have noted is the younger generation and different responses to the needs regarding ethnic programming. The Polaris study on page 9 notes that CKKL FM is extremely popular with the younger ethnic group in the Ottawa-Hull area. In other words, a particular kind of music.

1285 Has this affected your approach to programming at all and do you find a difference in terms of the needs, your listener demand of your younger audience and older audience and what would that difference be?

1286 MR. L. LOMBARDI: Well, this is indicative of what we see as the evolution of ethnic communities and the widening gap of second and third generation children as they grow and integrate into society.

1287 The role of an ethnic broadcaster is certainly to reflect that evolution wherever and whenever possible.

1288 With respect to our direction in Ottawa-Hull, we are targeting the ethnic communities that make up this city and our demographics take into account all of the people that fall into those categories. We look at the Italian community and say that's 35,000, 40,000 strong and that includes a lot of kids.

1289 What we do recognize, however, is that there are tremendous amounts of services available to certain age demographics. What we are talking about is cultural programming. What we are talking about is programming directed to and about the local community in which we are serving.

1290 I would argue that that younger generation would in time tune in and connect with programs that reflect their reality and the community in which they live, even though language retention is changing.

1291 We have found, through research and studies that we have done in Toronto, that the cultural connection remains very, very strong. There still remains a very strong sense of pride in our cultural backgrounds. Local radio can nurture and enhance that experience.

1292 What is lacking in Ottawa-Hull, in my opinion, is the fact that there does not exist a local, relevant over-the-air service that is available for that audience to readily tune into and connect with the communities in which they live.

1293 What is only available, to the most extent, is some valuable campus radio and some community programming on Rogers, and then the rest of it is rebroad from Toronto. That is not a reflection of the community and the society in which they are living, and that is what I think is necessary.

1294 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you.

1295 I understand your point about the reflection of society. I was just adding, for our better understanding of the many challenges you are taking on, how you approach both and the expectations of an older audience and the expectations of a younger audience through the programming, which we will now look at in more detail in fact.

1296 When I am talking about the programming, for your reference I am using the supplementary brief at pages 25 and 26, which speak to the programming, but I have to say in not much detail. That is why I need some more clarifications right now.

1297 I also have in front of me Appendix G, which is the program schedule. It is a slightly different set-up than what we see here, so we will talk about both.

1298 Your Schedule 5 also describes your programming and the deficiency letter of March 7th.

1299 Those are the references that I have used to put together some questions on your programming approach.

1300 The first question I had -- but I think you have answered it -- is you referred to the consultations with the local community organizations in preparing this programming grid and your approaches, and you did mention a number of the associations and groups that you spoke with.

1301 Could you give us a little more detail on how that consultation took place.

1302 MR. L. LOMBARDI: I worked with a nucleus of community involved individuals here in the Ottawa-Hull area, who in turn introduced me to many community leaders and representatives of associations. I conducted a series of meetings and discussions with regards to the needs and desires and the wants with respect to programming.

1303 Basically, that is how we conducted it, through Angelina Cacciato and her extensive knowledge of the city, and others that I have identified as part of our advisory board.

1304 Through these key individuals I came to know and experience many people within the Ottawa-Hull area; came with some ideas with respect to programming and, through consultations, finalized on a structure that I felt was achieving the goals that we wanted to achieve with respect to the greatest number of language and cultural services that we could provide to Ottawa-Hull, matched with the type of programming and quality and information that they are looking to find.

1305 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: What you came up with, then, was this approach to 37 groups and 20 languages, broken down into a program schedule that includes the cross-cultural programming and three groupings of the regional talk show concept.

1306 MR. L. LOMBARDI: Right.

1307 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: As you well know, in the ethnic policy we have said that the Commission sets out -- and what we should discuss today -- that in establishing the required number of distinct groups to be served, the Commission will also weigh the ability of the ethnic station to provide appropriate amounts of quality programming to these groups.

1308 In looking at your proposal, then, we notice that you plan to devote approximately 94 per cent of the broadcast week to ethnic programming, although I think today in your presentation you said 98 per cent.

1309 Am I correct?

1310 MR. L. LOMBARDI: That's right.

1311 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: So if the numbers are a little off because of that percentage, I think we are still getting at the same point.

1312 Then 92 per cent would be to third language programming.

1313 The ethnic and third language programming directed to the Italian, Chinese and East Indian communities accounts for, I have here, 48 hours or 38 per cent of total programming, which is taken largely from the program schedule submitted with your application.

1314 So 70 hours and 30 minutes, or 55 per cent of your proposed ethnic and third language programming, is targeted towards the other 32 cultural groups described.

1315 Can you outline for us the steps you will take to ensure that you can provide the amount and the quality of local programming necessary to meet the needs of these groups that make up 55 per cent of your proposed ethnic and third language audience?

1316 How will you go about assuring that the quality is there as well as the quantity?

1317 This is central. I believe Ms Cacciato raised this earlier, that one of the concerns was among groups not having enough time on the air.

1318 The reason I went through listener demand was the whole point of concern that there is not enough time for each of the groups. In accommodating so many groups and languages as you have, how can you assure us that other than the Italian, Chinese and East Indian communities, you are providing quality service, as seems to be the expectation?

1319 MR. L. LOMBARDI: Let me first begin by saying that this would be Ottawa's first multilingual radio station. I think it is incumbent on the first station to set a very strong example and put together a plan that is designed to serve as many ethnic communities as feasible.

1320 As such, it also is a business. We try to develop a programming schedule predicated on a business plan that will keep it healthy and strong and able to provide and meet the mandates that it sets out.

1321 So when you look at Italian, Cantonese, Hindi and see that as a reflection of over 50 per cent of the programming, it is a combination of two key factors. Certainly one is the size and depth of the community, reflected by the needs and desires of that community, as well as their economic development and their ability to support advertising revenues of the station.

1322 We also look at some other groups, such as the Arabic speaking community that is made up of many subcultural groups, Lebanese being the largest, but not to exclude Egyptians, Iraqis, Moroccans, et cetera.

1323 That, also, is a considerable amount of our programming as well. We are looking at 12 hours per week. Polish benefits to the tune of 10 hours per week, and certainly Caribbean and Ukrainian.

1324 What these programs also attempt to do, and what we attempt to do with the format, is to provide uniformity and familiarity on the dial at the time that our audiences become accustomed to tuning in and finding the programs that they want.

1325 We find that we had to make choices between language groups that would be served Monday to Friday with block programming and programs to other ethnic markets on the weekends.

1326 Only two programs have less than two hours. The Haitian community and the Iranian community have one hour or programming per week. All the rest of the communities enjoy no less than two hours, or more, of programming.

1327 As far as quality is concerned, quality is addressed in three key ways: station management and our philosophy with respect to what kinds of programmings we should strive for; our relationship with the associate producers. We will work with and discover and nurture members of the communities and groom them to be broadcasters, working to provide the needs and services that the community wants.

1328 As well, that is all going to be overseen by the advisory board, that is specifically dedicated to maintaining the mandate of that radio station.

1329 So combined with those three efforts and the resources that the station brings to bear with regards to news feeds from around the world, these are services that may not readily be available to a stand-alone operation in Ottawa, because we have these facilities available to us from our Toronto station. It is just a matter of providing them for the Ottawa station.

1330 The music library, all of these issues and all of these elements go towards producing quality programming in the appropriate quantities that can be feasibly maintained.

1331 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: I guess that is the key word: appropriate, can be feasibly maintained.

1332 If I understand you, the business plan and the advertising revenues have shaped to a great extent the division of hours amongst the various groups that you proposed here.

1333 In answering my question, you did mention the associate producers. Are they local producers?

1334 MR. L. LOMBARDI: Yes. All of the producers for CHIN Ottawa-Hull will be local producers from the area.

1335 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Are they from the various communities?

1336 MR. L. LOMBARDI: They will be from the various communities in which we serve.

1337 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Will they be representative of the 37 groups?

1338 MR. L. LOMBARDI: Very much so.

1339 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Are they involved in the creation and the actual production? Apart from the actual advisory group, are they involved in actual creation and production, both on and off air?

1340 MR. L. LOMBARDI: That is very much their mandate. It is truly a relationship between the associate producer and CHIN Radio.

1341 Our goal is to find the best representative that we can for that community. We provide all of the support services that enable that individual to create the best possible program available.

1342 That as a growing relationship -- for example, with our Arabic programming, if our associate producer suggests that news is tantamount, sports coverage is a must, then those things are going to happen in that particular community.

1343 I know in the Italian community the first thing that is on everyone's mind is live soccer coverage; live-to-air coverage of major sporting events.

1344 Those are the kinds of things that the associate producer would bring to this organization. Coupled with our experience, we will design and create what we think will be very, very successful programs.

1345 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: In Appendix A to your application, which is the section that deals with ethnic programming -- it is called Ethnic Undertakings; it is a particular appendix here -- it says that the CHIN program directors/producers review all programming proposed by local associate producers.

1346 Does that mean Toronto director/producers will oversee what is done locally?

1347 MR. L. LOMBARDI: No, there is really no involvement of Toronto in this regard.

1348 This application reflects a local radio station. We just happen to be from Toronto, and we have two radio stations there. We have a lot of experience that we want to share and bring to this organization.

1349 We want to create a CHIN Radio Ottawa here. We don't want a CHIN Toronto station in Ottawa. They are two very different things.

1350 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Looking at your program schedule, you project 39 per cent of your overall programming will be devoted to the spoken word.

1351 MR. L. LOMBARDI: Yes.

1352 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Approximately how much of your overall programming will be devoted to music?

1353 MR. L. LOMBARDI: We did a quick calculation, once we realized the amount of spoken word as a reality of our programming content, and we would estimate that to be about 50 per cent.

1354 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: So 50 per cent of the 39 per cent is music?

1355 MR. L. LOMBARDI: No; 39 per cent of 100 per cent is spoken word.

1356 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: What of the 100 per cent is music?

1357 MR. L. LOMBARDI: Approximately 50 per cent.

1358 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you.

1359 Let's go back to the cross-cultural programming, which is Monday to Friday, from 8:00 to 9:00, one hour; so five hours a week.

1360 Am I correct?

1361 MR. L. LOMBARDI: Yes.

1362 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: You say, however, in the supplementary brief, on page 25, that it will be 7.5 hours per week devoted to cross-cultural programming.

1363 Again, as we look at it, it would appear to be five. Where is the other 2.5 hours?

1364 MR. L. LOMBARDI: When we were putting the program schedule together, we included the half-hour of World Music Hits that you see at 7:30 to 8:00. That is really what makes up the 7.5 hours per week.

1365 The 7.5 hours is inclusive of that 2.5, which is predominantly music. The purpose of that program is to act as a buffer, because the cross-cultural program is a program designed to attract members from all ethnic communities that we serve. This is a program that is going to be promoted actively in all of our program schedules.

1366 The program will be hosted primarily in the official language English or French, but it is going to be dealing with topics and issues that affect all members of the ethic communities in Ottawa-Hull.

1367 What we wanted to create was a welcoming mat, if you will, of music that was not ethnic specific or mainstream, so that someone tuning in to the program in preparation for the talk show would find an interesting musical format that was neither ethnic specific or otherwise, but just enjoyable; very much a reflection of our current music format but bound together by mixing Cuban artists with south Asian artists and Italian artists in an interesting musical blend, but really as a welcoming mat to the cross-cultural programming.

1368 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: You would probably describe this musical programming as World Beat, Category 33?

1369 MR. L. LOMBARDI: It has been coined that as well.

1370 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: And 10 per cent Canadian content. I think you stated that although it is 7 per cent policy, 10 per cent is your commitment.

1371 MR. L. LOMBARDI: Ten per cent is our commitment across the board.

1372 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Canadian content across the board.

1373 MR. L. LOMBARDI: Right, not just in that.

1374 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Before I leave this cross-cultural programming -- and you raised this before -- I would like to give you another opportunity to tell us why you have included this cross-cultural programming idea.

1375 In a schedule which is in such demand by so many groups for as much time as possible, why take up these 7.5 hours -- let's just say five hours, because that is where nub of it is in terms of talk and exchange; building bridges, I think you mentioned in your brief.

1376 MR. L. LOMBARDI: Yes.

1377 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Why is that important and why is that valuable in this market?

1378 MR. L. LOMBARDI: I think it is a perfect fit for this radio station. Perhaps the best example and comparison I could give you would be my reference to the reception that I held for many members of the ethnic communities and the comment that this is one of those rare opportunities where many members from various ethnocultural communities gathered together under one roof to talk about a similar issue and a common goal.

1379 That is what this cross-cultural talk show is all about. It is connecting members of ethnic communities with other people from different walks of life, different communities.

1380 What we want to create is free dialogue between the Italian community and the Portuguese community, the Chinese community and the South Asian community, all discussing issues and topics that are of vital importance to their community and exchange ideas in that respect.

1381 I think that is really a reality of our society and something that is absolutely essential.

1382 I think that type of programming blends very well in the whole concept of ethnic broadcasting. It is an introduction to what these cultures and these communities are all about. It is an opportunity for us to better understand our neighbours.

1383 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you.

1384 I have another question about the languages.

1385 We note you have designated Caribbean as a third language as part of your commitment to 20 different languages. How does Caribbean qualify as a third language group and why should it be accepted as third language under the provisions of the policy?

1386 MR. L. LOMBARDI: We designated Caribbean as an ethnic group. If it showed up as a language, that would have been under English.

1387 Do you mind if I just take a quick count?

1388 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Did you want to check that?

1389 MR. L. LOMBARDI: Yes.

--- Pause

1390 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: We have "English/Caribbean" here, but I think in our application schedule Appendix G we have "Caribbean" on Saturday and Sundays from 9:00 to 10:00.

1391 MR. L. LOMBARDI: Yes, that is absolutely correct. It does turn up as the English-language within our format. So it is actually --

1392 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: So if it is not accepted as a third language, will you maintain or reduce your current commitment to offer programming in 20 languages? It is therefore down to 19, wouldn't it be, or would you put it at 20 and add a language?

1393 MR. L. LOMBARDI: I would actually add a language, and the language --

1394 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: So you will maintain --

1395 MR. L. LOMBARDI: -- I could even tell you the language I would add.

1396 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: -- your commitment to 20 languages?

1397 MR. L. LOMBARDI: Yes, I would.

1398 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Not surprisingly I would like to go on to talk about local programming and local reflection.

1399 Again Appendix A attached to your application provides us with more detail on this point.

1400 You propose to provide local quality programming to 37 cultural groups beginning in year one. We discussed the fact that you would engage local producers, creative personnel to provide this programming. Have you determined that you will be able to successfully recruit individuals from these local Ottawa communities with the broadcasting and programming experience necessary to immediately begin creating content for your station?

1401 MR. L. LOMBARDI: I have had person contact with many existing ethnic broadcasters in the market, either both radio and television on campus and community TV, and find there is an abundance of talent.

1402 What CHIN Radio also brings to the mix are our efforts to provide additional training in the expertise of their field and to assist the growth and development of these individuals as broadcasters.

1403 We don't feel that there will be any shortage whatsoever of talented individuals here in Ottawa.

1404 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Do you have plans, however -- assuming that you would want to develop new voices, would you have specific plans to develop talent? You say that there is currently talent available. Have you specific plans to develop new talent?

1405 MR. L. LOMBARDI: Which leads me to some of our Canadian talent development funding.

1406 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: We can get back to in Canadian talent development funding, but I am also interested in terms of your employment equity plan, which I see a note in the application regarding on-air presence of visible minorities, however I don't see a detailed discussion of your employment equity approach.

1407 I think that is a little bit more the question I had here: Do you have some specific developmental plans which will reach to the communities that you are serving?

1408 MR. L. LOMBARDI: Once again, as a function of the advisory board, this would certainly be part of their mandate, but we would actively promote and advertise within the communities in which we serve, talented individuals to come forward for auditions and preparation.

1409 We are an ethnic broadcaster so our goal is to seek out the best individuals from those communities. So in many ways it speaks for itself. Given our history and 35 years of broadcasting experience in Toronto, we have learned over the years how to develop talent and nurture it and bring it forward.

1410 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Indeed, one respects that 35 years experience, but again I think it is important that we have as much specifics as possible. It is always educational to everyone concerned to know how you go about developing talent. It doesn't just happen. It requires a commitment and a game plan on your part. I'm sure it is part and parcel of what your on-air presence is all about, but it would be interesting to know a little bit more about that program will develop. We can get to that as well in the Canadian talent development section.

1411 In the area of local content now, the new ethnic policy states that:

"The Commission will expect licensees to report on the progress of their local content initiatives at their subsequent licence renewals and it would be helpful for licensees to indicate in their plans how they subsequently evaluate their progress." (As read)

1412 You have described in general terms of station management and your advisory board will assist in monitoring local content, and we have talked about it this afternoon.

1413 Could you describe in more detail what specific mechanisms you will establish to evaluate your progress with respect to meeting your local content initiatives over the course of the licence term?

1414 MR. L. LOMBARDI: By very essence of ethnic broadcasting we are extremely locally driven. We will not syndicate or purchase any syndicated programming and our goal is to be very reflective of the community in which we serve.

1415 The relationship, the very strong relationship that we develop with our associate producers and that whole training program will be one of a local reflection of their specific community, and in many ways it might be useful to view our set-up as being 20 different radio stations under one roof.

1416 So our advisors in our Arabic programming are those members specifically from the local community.

1417 That is in close consultation with CHIN management, Ottawa management, and close consultation with the advisory board as to how those goals are achieved with respect to a local reflection of our programming.

1418 That is basically how we would approach it.

1419 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: So as per the ethnic policy you will have in place a specific mechanism to keep track of the local reflection and how you progress and how, if anything, the make-up of your day changes according to the needs of the community?

1420 MR. L. LOMBARDI: That's right. Well, we would do all this and those changes would be also in consultation with the advisory board with respect to any changes to that program schedule.

1421 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: The open line programming. The open line programming is Italian regional/local talk show from 10:00 to 11:00 every day of the week; the Chinese regional/local news show for one hour five days a week; and a Hindi regional/local talk show one hour five days a week.

1422 You mentioned this earlier and we talked about it as a general question as to how you saw this ethnic station, how it would look.

1423 So I would like to come back to it now with a couple of specific questions.

1424 These programs are described as regional, not local. They are directed to the Italian, Chinese and South Asian communities in both Ottawa and Toronto.

1425 At five hours per week per group, this type of programming accounts for less than 50 per cent of the overall amount of programming you propose to devote to each of these groups in Ottawa.

1426 Do you have any plans to increase the number of hours per week that you would devote to this type of regional programming over the licence term, or any plans to expand the number of cultural groups this type of programming would be directed to, if you find that it is very popular with your listeners and more economical?

1427 Again, this is why I raised it earlier, it is a very fundamental part of your particular approach.

1428 So do you see increasing the hours? Do you see increasing the number of groups who will have this kind of regional talk show between Ottawa and Toronto over the licence term?

1429 MR. L. LOMBARDI: Well, I wouldn't avoid it if that was evident in our research and we discovered communities that we are currently serving wanted to benefit from that type of programming.

1430 But I think it is also important to note that we use the word "regional" to describe the connection to another community outside of Ottawa. The purpose of that connection is to exchange ideas.

1431 We are still very much a locally driven program here in Ottawa, just as it would be in Toronto. Maybe it's best if I try to describe the way the program would actually be initiated.

1432 Here in Ottawa we would have hosts, celebrities from the communities in question here anchoring the program and, quite possibly, with special guests that would be contributing to the format of the day. Open line calls would be encouraged from Ottawa. Exactly the same scenario would take place in Toronto. For one hour there would be an exchange.

1433 So the regional portion of that is the connection to Toronto, but the program is still distinctively local to the community in which we are serving. So I think we have very much a local spin on those shows.

1434 What we find very interesting and intriguing is connecting those communities together to exchange ideas. Because that idea is so intriguing. I think we have found that it is a very welcomed addition to the programming to those three communities in which we have selected. We could very well see an interest in other communities looking for that type of connection outside of their own community to connect on issues with Toronto.

1435 Now, will it reflect one hour worth of programming or will it be once a week? That is something that is flexible in our minds and certainly a process of developing with associate producers.

1436 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Just to be sure we understand, I certainly recognize the value you see in this kind of programming, but the ethnic policy does stress and does make the point that really your station should serve the local community. So if there are increasing amounts of so-called regional programming, will this not have an impact on the quality of local programming for groups that are not Italian, Chinese, Hindi in terms of this regional approach?

1437 If it is so successful, will it not mean that you will devote less time and less quality to the local programming to other groups?

1438 MR. L. LOMBARDI: That certainly would never be the intention, to provide less local programming.

1439 With respect to describing local programming, quite possibly in this particular scenario entertainers, financial advisors, lawmakers, politicians, are available in both cities to us, certainly here in the Nation's Capital.

1440 One of our programs in Toronto is regularly hosted by my sister Donina and the correspondent is Mike Duffy reporting from Parliament Hill. So the issues that are discussed in that particular program have a regional relevance, and also a local relevance as well, especially here in Ottawa.

1441 So there is really some of the essence of the idea of this quality of programming.

1442 So take, for example, an entertainer from Bombay is performing and doing a show in Toronto and we decide to take calls with that particular artist, we would like to include -- in this scenario we would like to include Ottawa in that discussion.

1443 So here you have two audiences in two different cities in Canada speaking to an artist, regardless of what studio he is in, but I view that as very local programming. I view that as speaking directly to the local community of Ottawa with respect to their entertainments interests. And not to forget that we have a very strong local presence with our hosts and announcers here.

1444 It is that kind of synergy that we want to bring to these regional/local talk programs.

1445 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: So if I am correct, the 19 hours, say, for Italian listeners, includes the five hours of regional?

1446 MR. L. LOMBARDI: Yes, it does.

1447 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: And it is your contention that this does not in any way undermine the local service to the Italian community, specifically local service, that it won't become overwhelmingly regional and perhaps strongly oriented to Toronto, things being what they are between the two cities?

1448 MR. L. LOMBARDI: No. We would really have some safeguards to prevent that. We don't intend on running any advertising from the Toronto area into the Ottawa area. We would take timed commercial breaks. Our public service announcements and our advertising would run independently.

1449 There would be a very strong identity for the Ottawa station with has nothing to do with the Toronto station with respect to IDs, with respect to all aspects of programming.

1450 What we are looking at is just sharing some, what we consider, very interesting and valuable programming content that has a distinct connection between the two communities.

1451 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: If deemed necessary, if in reviewing this concept it would be considered necessary, would you agree to a condition of licence that would limit the number of hours per week devoted to regional programming? If so, how many hours per week?

1452 MR. L. LOMBARDI: I would agree to a condition of licence as per the proposal that we have submitted. So I would limit it to the 15 hours per week.

1453 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you.

1454 I have one more area on Canadian talent development and then we could -- I mean on news programming and then we could take a short break to finish our review of your application.

1455 On news programming you again note that:

"CHIN multicultural radio or CHIN Radiottawa..." (As read)

1456 MR. L. LOMBARDI: We thought it was cute.

1457 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: It is. It is.

--- Laughter / Rires

1458 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:

"...is ideally positioned to benefit from existing operational resources in Toronto to assure that if licensed its new FM ratio service would flourish." (As read)

1459 You point to the Ottawa station's access to new feeds via CHIN International and again our development of regional programming.

1460 Have you any intention, in addition to the regional talk shows, to develop regional news programming or regional newscast that would originate from Toronto and be broadcast on your Ottawa station? If so, how will this impact on your commitment to offer spoken word local programming that will be relevant to the Ottawa ethnic community?

1461 I notice, for example, the Chinese hour is regional local news. Could you clarify why it's news as opposed to a show on your current schedule and, secondly, do you see this concept evolving to become regional newscasts?

1462 MR. L. LOMBARDI: No, I don't. With respect to the Chinese programming, why we identified it in that manner was to recognize that our news features for the Chinese community would also include financial news, entertainment news and current news from Hong Kong directly. That I think is a very major component of our programming to the Chinese community, so that reflection with respect to that segment there.

1463 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you.

1464 We can break now if you wish.

1465 THE CHAIRPERSON: This may be a good time if that's suitable for you to take a 15 minute break.

1466 Nous reprendrons dans 15 minutes. Merci.

--- Upon recessing at 1620 / Suspension à 1620

--- Upon resuming at 1617 / Reprise à 1617

1467 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Nous reprendrons là où nous nous sommes arrêtés.

1468 We will pursue with CHIN and Madam Pennefather.

1469 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you, Madam Chair.

1470 Mr. Lombardi, I think we will go to the Canadian talent development proposals and just some clarifications. The information is quite complete, but a question was asked in a deficiency letter of March 7 which I will need a little more information about, specifically the $10,000 per year to the CHIN Multicultural Music and Song Competition.

1471 There are three winners to this chosen from a field of 20 contestants, awarded cash prizes. The event will be recorded live to both audio and video, culminating in a CD release, distributed to all ethnic stations across Canada and a video program will air on the NewRO and CHIN Citytv in Toronto -- I almost said T.O. It came out after RO, so sorry about that.

1472 However, as per the deficiency letter, it is not clear how the $10,000 will be allocated in realizing this initiative. Can you give us an approximate annual direct cost breakdown for the various elements associated with this initiative? For example, third party advertising, cash awards, staging costs, audio and video recording costs and CD manufacturing costs, if applicable.

1473 If you would like to come back with that, that's fine, but if you have it available now, go right ahead.

1474 MR. L. LOMBARDI: I would be pleased to file that with the Commission during these proceedings. Briefly, the contribution to the song competition is $10,000 on an annual basis. That will be directed specifically to the production and staging of the actual competition.

1475 What we hope and what we will achieve as a result of that expenditure is a finished product of the actual competition recorded on CD.

1476 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Is there not a cash prize involved? Is that the cash prize that is actually the recording?

1477 MR. L. LOMBARDI: No. The $10,000 will all be spent in the production of the event and the recording of the CD. Cash prizes, third party advertising, any other expenses, recording of the video with respect to the actual show and the rebroadcast of that video on the NewRO will be costs borne by the station.

1478 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: I see. So this is seen as really a promotion of the winner as opposed through the CD, audio presence on NewRO and CHIN as opposed to cash prize in the hand of the artist.

1479 MR. L. LOMBARDI: Cash prizes will also be part of the --

1480 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Part of the $10,000?

1481 MR. L. LOMBARDI: No. The $10,000 is directed specifically to the expenditure of producing the event and getting the material recorded. That would go towards hiring musicians, writing the arrangements, getting the charts done, staging the event and then actually getting it mixed down and then record it to CD. It will take all of that money to do that.

1482 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Okay. Then it would be important to provide a breakdown because the supplementary brief does refer to the top three winners receiving cash prizes in addition -- I'm sorry, to receive cash prizes to be used for additional recordings, so it's over and above the recording of their prize-winning song.

1483 MR. L. LOMBARDI: That's right.

1484 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: So if you could explain that, that would be very helpful.

1485 Now, the CDs created in this initiative, will they be made available to the contestants and to the general public?

1486 MR. L. LOMBARDI: We would certainly make CDs available to all the contestants and certainly the CD would be available to the general public for sale or for promotion. We will share also that materials with other broadcasters.

1487 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: With other stations.

1488 MR. L. LOMBARDI: Yes. And it will also be part of the Association of Ethnic Broadcasters ethnic catalogue --

1489 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Right.

1490 MR. L. LOMBARDI:  -- that is finally coming together, I am happy to report.

1491 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: I will get to that in one moment. The other initiative is the multilingual music initiative, again an annual funding of $10,000, to sponsor a series of monthly public performances, showcasing world music, to record for broadcast the best of these performances, to develop an ongoing music mentoring program and to underwrite a symposium to be held during the song competition.

1492 Again in the March 7 deficiency letter it requested a financial direct cost breakdown. You simply stated that the initiative would be directed to eligible third party recipients.

1493 I guess we need to understand this initiative, what its elements are and the costs of those elements, if you could describe them. If you need to get back to us with the specific costs breakdown, essentially how is it going to work.

1494 I'm very interested in the music mentoring program, what you mean by that. As one of these elements, how is that going to work?

1495 MR. L. LOMBARDI: Well, we recognize that young artists benefit tremendously through the sharing experience of a professional as a mentor and in particular because of our mandate it is up to broadcasters who want to encourage the retention and the use of ethnic style music within their development as musicians to artists such as Ivana Santilli and Nelly Furtado who are currently mainstream artists but continue to record in their cultural language.

1496 I think that's vitally important and something that CHIN has always wanted to encourage. We recognize this as an opportunity to formalize the program that encourages young artists to stay in touch, to hold on to those musical values that they are learning via osmosis.

1497 Parents often force them into dance classes or teach them the accordion, but those tools are something that if they continue to use will eventually benefit not only themselves, but the musical environment that we can create here in Ottawa.

1498 It's a matter of selecting through auditions upcoming students and youngsters who are demonstrating a talent in music and song, teaming them with musical mentors. We would look to associations like the Ottawa Musicians Association or the Music Teachers Association of Ottawa and similar groups like that where we could match professionals with young students.

1499 With regard to the costs, those costs would be directed or the payments would be directed to specifically the mentoring programs and certainly overseen by the advisory board and/or CHIN staff with respect to those costs.

1500 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: So you would provide us with a more detailed breakdown of the direct costs.

1501 MR. L. LOMBARDI: Yes.

1502 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: And, secondly, as I understand it, the on-air promos, Web site, will be part of that breakdown as well as the costs related to this mentoring program which would pair an artist with an established artist.

1503 That mentoring would occur for a short period of time leading up to the symposium or is it a mentoring that will continue over some period of time?

1504 MR. L. LOMBARDI: Well, we look at it as a period of a year. We would encourage that process over a period of time. The development of that individual would coincide we hope with a symposium at our song festival.

1505 That's as far as we have taken it. Then we would look to invest in new students, but there is always a very strong possibility that we would continue that program with some of the more promising kids.

1506 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you. If you break down both programs, we can see how they are separate, but also they appear to mesh at some point --

1507 MR. L. LOMBARDI: Yes, they do.

1508 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  -- in the symposium, so it would be important also to be clear that they are not overlapping. They seem to come together.

1509 MR. L. LOMBARDI: Absolutely. They are very distinct and different. That song festival will showcase somewhat of a more professional performer where this mentoring program will be a glimpse at a young star about to be.

1510 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: On the ethnic music catalogue initiative which we have just talked about, you have indicated that as part of your CTD package you will direct $3,000 per year towards the CAEB music catalogue initiative. Is this a seven year or a three year commitment?

1511 MR. L. LOMBARDI: This hearing and for this application, it's a seven year commitment.

1512 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Seven year. You said it is getting up and running.

1513 MR. L. LOMBARDI: I'm happy to report it's about to go online in July. There has been some debate with respect to how to best capture the current ethnic recordings in Canada.

1514 If accepted by the Canadian Association of Ethnic Broadcasters, the presentation by CHIN radio will recommend that we go online with a catalogue of ethnic programs which enables ethnic recording artists an opportunity to log on, enter their music catalogue, provide all of the information as far as bios, imagery, everything that a radio station or anyone interested in ethnic product would want.

1515 This is something that the CAEB will maintain and actively advertise and promote to the communities in which we are currently serving. How we would work in Ottawa is we would actively encourage current recording artists to check out the CAEB Web site and enter their material.

1516 It would also allow broadcasters across the country to actually download their material, so all this digital material could be downloaded by radio stations across the country and they could immediately access this music.

1517 I am convinced that that is the way to go and I hope to get the support of the CAEB on it.

1518 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you for that information. I am going to turn to the business plan now. It may seem a little repetitive the first questions, but they are of particular interest since you stated earlier that a large part of the rationale behind your breakdown of hours is the business plan and the advertising revenues connected with those choices.

1519 I will be looking at the strategic study, schedule 18 of your application, section 9.1, which is your financial picture and the March 7 deficiency letter and, of course, the supplementary brief. The strategic study does point out a number of important elements that we should look at in this market.

1520 Just snatching at a couple of points here by way of introduction. There is the point that major national advertising agencies are saying that the market is flat, but the interest of local business communities is enthusiastic and retail is the principal ad base for ethnic radio, which is page 24 of the study.

1521 I would like to go through the link again between the communities served, the hours served, but in this case vis-à-vis advertising revenues in your business plan.

1522 We discussed earlier the ethnic communities that you will serve. The largest are the Italian, Chinese, Hindi and Arabic communities. Correct?

1523 MR. L. LOMBARDI: Yes.

1524 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: We discussed earlier the amount of radio programming currently available to the Italian, Cantonese, Hindi and Arabic communities. We said 40 hours globally is available of ethnic programming.

1525 Do you have a sense of how many hours of radio programming are currently available to each of these, your major groups: the Italian, Cantonese, Hindi and Arabic communities?

1526 How much radio programming is currently available to these particular communities?

1527 MR. L. LOMBARDI: With respect to what is local programming to these four communities?

1528 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Yes.

1529 MR. L. LOMBARDI: My quick answer would be a minimal amount, given the number of communities that are being served by campus radio today; a very small percentage of it.

1530 I would like Angelina to comment on that.

1531 MS CACCIATO: We may have about five hours. With the Italian, I don't believe there is any Italian community radio program. We have Italitanti for the Italian community, and that is an hour a week.

1532 For the Chinese we have an hour a month with the cable programming. In terms of radio, you may have about an hour between CKCU and CHUO, about an hour a week.

1533 With the Indian, I would say you have about an hour a week of radio, with both university stations combined. Then there is the Indian television programming, which is an hour a month at Rogers Cable.

1534 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you.

1535 If we look, then, at Schedule 18 and we look at the line dealing with Italian -- this is the revenue summary, and if we look at the line dealing with revenues from the Italian community you note in year one that Italian advertisers would generate $171,600 in projected advertising revenue. How was this estimate arrived at?

1536 We note that there 4,560 residents of Ottawa-Hull who report Italian as their home language in the 1996 census. How did you arrive at the $171,600 in year one, rising a little bit over the course of the seven years?

1537 How did you get to that number?

1538 MR. L. LOMBARDI: With regards to our business plan, I would refer to Bob Culliton, business manager.

1539 MR. CULLITON: We looked at the Italian programming on a Monday to Friday basis between 8 o'clock and 10 o'clock. We looked at the percentage of sellout that we could do in that period of time, and based on our studies we felt that we could do a 40 per cent sellout in the first year. The average spot rate would be $30, and that would come to $3,300 per week; and times 52 would be your $171,000.

1540 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you, Mr. Culliton. I am going to ask you a similar question for each of the major communities served: namely, Chinese, Hindi and Arabic, in this order.

1541 In the 1996 Census there are 11,625 residents who report Chinese as their home language. In this same Schedule 18 we look at year one, with Chinese advertisers generating $170,300 in projected revenue.

1542 Again, is it a similar approach in terms of how you reach that number?

1543 MR. CULLITON: Yes, it is. The spot rate might be different.

1544 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: What would be the spot rate?

1545 MR. CULLITON: From 4:00 to 5:00 the spot rate would be $20; and from 5:00 to 7:00 the spot rate would be $25.

1546 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Also this is the scheduling issue.

1547 Would you be able to provide an estimate of the amount of Chinese language radio advertising revenue that is available in the Ottawa-Hull market, generally speaking? What is the available advertising revenue in this market from Chinese advertisers?

1548 This is your calculation. What is the availability, in your estimate?

1549 MR. L. LOMBARDI: Availability with respect to?

1550 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Chinese language radio advertising revenue overall.

1551 MR. L. LOMBARDI: I see. What we project is available within the market.

1552 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: That is your projection. Can you provide us with an estimate of the amount of Chinese language radio advertising revenue that is available in the Ottawa-Hull market.

1553 MR. L. LOMBARDI: We are retail based. But I think our studies with respect to Strategic Inc.'s view on the market speaks very complimentary to the ability of the Chinese community and other communities which we are serving to support this initiative.

1554 Perhaps I could turn to Debra.

1555 MS McLAUGHLIN: That is a question that we tried very hard to answer.

1556 Part of the problem is that when you go to advertisers they are unwilling to tell you the amount of money they are spending. There is no body collecting information in regards to this type of spending in the Ottawa market, because it is really not a developed market in any sense of the word.

1557 What we were able to ascertain was current spending in terms of their location and media, and we were able to put prices together.

1558 One of the reasons that the Italian and the Chinese markets have significant dollars beside them is because they have a very highly developed, very mature business association, a series of businesses, and they cover practically the entire gamut of consumer needs.

1559 When we spoke to retailers, to people functioning in this area in business who would require advertising, we discovered that in fact they did not have any outlet.

1560 Radio per se wasn't unattractive. It was that radio that targeted or had an audience predominantly English or French was inefficient; it was too expensive for what they needed. So they were using classified ads; they were using small print ads in community papers. They were using directories and they were using flyers.

1561 They are spending money for sure, and what they were looking for was something that was more broad reaching to the community and had a different role, so to speak.

1562 When you put an ad in a directory, for example, to a community that is a static ad. That directory comes out once a year. You cannot use advertising in the traditional format of driving sales, of driving traffic.

1563 This is a community that has sales, has special events. There is no alternative, except the newspaper or flyers, to advertise anything associated with any events that are happening in the market.

1564 There was clearly a pent-up demand which we refer to in the study.

1565 The other reason that these numbers are significantly higher for these two groups in particular is that although we say the demand for national advertisers is flat, we were able to identify what would be described as typical national advertising, banking institutions, car manufacturers, retailers, who are advertising again in the only limited form they can, and that is in these directories.

1566 When we contacted the agencies in Toronto, they said Ottawa really doesn't have an ethnic population, which goes not to the fact that that is the case but their limited understanding of the composition of the market.

1567 When we went to the advertisers, when we went to the Royal Bank, the Royal Bank said: "For sure. We can't reach that community. If you have another means, we would love to consider it."

1568 In terms of the business plan for the Royal Bank, for example, the Italian community has a very particular set of services that they have identified that they can sell, especially the Chinese community.

1569 So it is not necessarily the local retailer that is designing this plan; it is the fact that the local Royal Bank in Ottawa will put up the money to reach the Chinese community because, as a national advertiser, they have a plan for these communities.

1570 It stays local. As far as Toronto agencies are concerned, the demand is flat. But in real truth, people who live in the market, people who operate businesses in the market, see a demand for this.

1571 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: They see a demand. You also, therefore, feel that your calculation for revenues for these groups, Italian, Chinese -- and we also would want to have similar comments for the Hindi and Arabic populations. You see these as legitimate revenue expectations, but it is difficult for you to -- I'm sorry?

1572 MS CACCIATO: I would like to give some specific examples of what Debra is referring to.

1573 When we were at Sala San Marco for a reception on the 23rd of April, the owner came up to me and said: "Oh, my God, it would be so great to have CHIN. We have people calling us all the time about the availability of our salon, but we cannot get to the market. If we had a radio station, we could let people know when our space is available, what dates, because we have people calling us for weddings, for graduations, but there is no way for me to get to the community as quickly as I can."

1574 I also want to point out that there are a lot of print media that exist in Ottawa for the various ethnic groups, and they survive by advertising alone. Again, the print media is a static media.

1575 When you think that the Chinese have about five separate community papers, you have the Caribbean with a paper; you have the Italian with a paper, plus a second paper that is coming out in the Italian paper alone. They have a huge Italian directory with tons of advertising in it that comes out in a year. Plus there is a Lebanese newspaper. There is a lot of print media.

1576 The communities themselves recognize that they need to speak to themselves, so they are willing to pay for that. But the print media is a static media.

1577 When you are talking about radio, it is a fluid media. It gets the message across immediately.

1578 If the local advertiser is going to be selling sausages at a certain price for this week, he will definitely get on the media and reach as many people as possible.

1579 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you.

1580 The question I was asking was also a dollar amount; what the pent up interest is over and above your calculation. What is there waiting to be tapped?

1581 Can you give us a dollar amount?

1582 MS McLAUGHLIN: No. To be perfectly honest, no, it is not possible because advertisers are unwilling to reveal the amount of money they spend, for competitive reasons.

1583 To go back to my Royal Bank example, yes, they are interested but when you ask them what the budget would be, they say: "We don't know. We would have to look at it. We would have to draw it from other places. We would have to create it." Will we spend? Yes.

1584 The amount that you are seeing in these columns in fact reflects where I found developed business communities, where I found interest either from regional advertisers, in combination with CHIN's Toronto experience in terms of where that money can be developed.

1585 Regardless of consumer differences, we are talking about advertiser interest in these consumer groups. I believe there is a direct parallel between the markets.

1586 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you.

1587 For the record, I would like to be sure that we have all the information.

1588 I will go back to my question to you again, Mr. Culliton, in terms of the next group we were addressing, the Hindi group. We are looking at a Census number of 800 residents in the 1996 Census. You are predicting in year one south Asian advertisers would generate $88,400 in projected revenue.

1589 Clarify for us how this estimate was arrived at, and if you have sense again of the overall market advertising revenue available.

1590 MR. CULLITON: We broke down the 9:00 to 10:00 south Asian would be a 40 per cent sellout at $20 a spot. That would give us $900 a week. And the 10:00 to 11:00 would be a 35 per cent sellout at $20. That would be $800 a week. That would total the reported figure.

1591 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: If we move, then, to the Arabic community, we have 12,090 residents in the 1996 Census reporting Arabic as their home language.

1592 MR. CULLITON: The Arabic is 2:00 to 4:00, and it would be a 40 per cent sellout at $20 a spot. That would be $1,900 a week times 52.

1593 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you.

1594 MS McLAUGHLIN: Excuse me, if I could interject, I want to revisit the Hindi for a moment.

1595 You had referred to the Hindi population in the 800 range. It is important that it is understood that the Hindi language is the common language for south Asian. So it is a broader audience than simply the Hindi home language group would indicate. You would have to take Punjabi and Irdu and all of the south Asian.

1596 So the communities, if you are comparing populations to dollars, grow.

1597 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you. I appreciate that clarification. I think we discussed that clarification at other hearings too, but it is important to note.

1598 In passing, I had another question -- and perhaps Mr. Culliton again or Ms McLaughlin could answer; I am not sure. It was interesting that you mentioned national advertisers.

1599 In section 9.1 I see local advertising revenues, but I don't see any national advertising revenues. Why is that?

1600 MR. L. LOMBARDI: Let me lead off by saying that I think Debra can explain her comment with respect to the Royal Bank, but national advertisers are not part of our budget. We don't think we can attract national advertising. We have a lot of difficulty in other markets, like Toronto, securing national advertising dollars, because they just don't come our way, largely due to the fact that we don't subscribe to BBM.

1601 With respect to Debra's comment, I will wager a guess that the Royal Bank is really a retail advertiser in this context. We also work with the Royal Bank in Toronto, but their interest in advertising on CHIN, as it would be here in Ottawa, would be from a retail perspective.

1602 They want to reach their current customers here. Unlike traditional national dollars where there is a national buy of advertising and it is just booked and placed on CHIN. That doesn't really exist for ethnic broadcasters and we don't see it happening here either.

1603 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: So you don't have any national advertising at CHIN Toronto?

1604 MR. CULLITON: I would say probably 1 per cent of our gross revenue.

1605 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Okay. Thank you.

1606 There was a blank line across here, I was curious why.

1607 MR. L. LOMBARDI: It causes us no end of depression when we see that line ourselves.

--- Laughter / Rires

1608 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Okay.

1609 Another business question. There are 11 applicants competing for a new FM licence to serve Ottawa/Hull, four English language, four French language, two ethnic, one native. What would be the impact on your business plan if the Commission were to approve one or more of the applications for an English-language and/or French-language FM?

1610 MR. L. LOMBARDI: It would have no impact on our format, given that we are an ethnic station directing our programs to the ethnocultural communities. So an English or French-language station would have no impact on our bottom line.

1611 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: If the Commission were to approve your application as well as that of Infinity, what would be the impact on the viability of your proposed station?

1612 MR. L. LOMBARDI: Well, as Gary Slaight mentioned when the same question was asked, it probably wouldn't be in our best interest.

1613 However, I am confident that CHIN would survive because of the synergies that are inherent in our application. So we would be able to tackle that dilemma.

1614 I don't think it would be in either applicant's best interest and it would certainly slow the progression and profitability or, rather, break even of that operation.

1615 But again what I say with respect to synergies, we really do have tremendous synergies to bring to bear for this station with respect to promotion and sharing of costs and many other aspects of it. So we would be able to weather the storm.

1616 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Another point, you mentioned synergies. Given your long-standing relationship with CHUM, would there be joint selling of advertising time on the proposed station and CHUM's Ottawa stations?

1617 MR. L. LOMBARDI: That is not something that we have discussed at this point, but I wouldn't rule out any format and formula that makes good sense with respect to encouraging development of our concept on CHIN Radio Ottawa and furthering developing our relationship with City -- rather with CHUM Television in Ottawa/Hull.

1618 Part of our plan is produce, as you know, four hours of ethnic programs on the New RO. So that concept is certainly something worth looking at.

1619 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Very quickly on the advisory board, which is described on pages 25 and 26, and you have described its role and mandate today during our discussion. Is it still a seven member advisory board and what is its current status?

1620 I think in deficiencies we asked for a list of members. Do you have such a list available?

1621 MR. L. LOMBARDI: I do. All the positions have been filled and I would be very pleased to provide the Commission with a list of our advisory board.

1622 In fact, I read off a list of the advisory members and many of them were here in the audience, and I have to say still are.

1623 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Some of them are. Some had to leave.

1624 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Yes, we appreciate that. I think it is described as part of the role, is to come and have us here.

1625 MR. L. LOMBARDI: You noticed that.

1626 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: There is a point, though, that I find interesting. I think the role is very clearly described. The monitoring of local content was mentioned earlier. It is not a decisional board, as I understand reading the role description in the application. It is a seven member board representing a station that is offering services to 37 groups in 20 languages.

1627 How do you see the board's role in terms of managing, if you will -- and I use the term in brackets, not in the sense of managing, but managing the competing demands coming from various communities? Do you have any concerns about how the board of seven will accomplish a good hearing of all those interests and how do you see that working out?

1628 MR. L. LOMBARDI: I'm glad you asked that question because it is something that we have given some serious thought to with respect to creating a board that can work harmoniously in fulfilling and helping to fulfil the station's mandate and avoiding, at the same time, the concerns that we might have by members of specific ethnic groups taking a more narrow view and insisting on programming for their own community.

1629 So I am very pleased to announce that we have selected what I think is a tremendous mix of professionals, all involved extensively in the ethnic communities, but not just their particular community but in fact have a broad appreciation and range of experience in many groups.

1630 Angelina Cacciato, for example, has relationships and involvements in many cultural groups here in Ottawa.

1631 If I could just review the list once again: Anna Chiappa is the Executive Director of the Canadian Ethnocultural Council.

1632 Carl Nicholson is the Executive Director of the Catholic Immigration Centre.

1633 Lucio Appolloni is a Co-Founder of Villa Marconi, but also very, very active in the ethnic community.

1634 Cliff Gazee is the Board President of Somerset West Community Health Centre. His community is made up of 35,000 members from a vast array of different ethnocultural communities. His concerns reflect all of the needs of the communities here in Ottawa.

1635 So with that balance that we have been able to achieve with Rowena Tolson, the Chinese Community Association of Ottawa, here involvement not only on the Cantonese side but also the Mandarin language side.

1636 And Angelo Filoso, who is a newspaper editor and actively involved in the Italian community. They all bring to bear a unique and well-balanced perspective of their task.

1637 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you.

1638 That is an important description of the members of the board with experience in, in fact, bringing varying views together in their other voluntary positions or otherwise.

1639 I have arrived at the technical issues now. As you know, your application is competitive and technically mutually exclusive with three other applications for 97.9. No, it should be two other -- yes, three other applications.

1640 I would like to understand why you chose 97.9; why your proposal constitutes the best use of 97.9 frequency; and what are the compelling reasons to grant you this particular frequency.

1641 So why did you choose 97.9 as the frequency for your service?

1642 MR. L. LOMBARDI: We arrived, after reviewing many of the different frequencies available, at 97.9 primarily because it provided us the best signal with respect to our target market.

1643 Our contour encompasses the overwhelming majority of ethnic communities situated in Ottawa/Hull and we are able to adequately serve them within that contour. It is a good signal. It is an omnidirectional signal and that is really the thrust of our decision.

1644 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: It would reach the communities that you propose to serve

1645 I notice, looking at the map of the direction here, the inner circle, as we call it, seems to reach -- or the 3 millimetre volt seems to reach, from this map, a fair portion on the Quebec side, reaching up -- this is not a very detailed map, but certainly towards La Pêche, and less so in the Ottawa area, leaving out Kanata, Nepean and Gloucester.

1646 If we remember our discussion about the ethnic community and the high-tech area, I'm wondering how you respond to that. Because it would appear, although the .5 millimetre seems to reach into those areas, I think it is understood that the inner circle is the one where you get the best service, but it doesn't seem to reach the communities we were talking about, at least from the technical point of view.

1647 Could you explain that?

1648 MR. L. LOMBARDI: The .5 millivolt contour is the one that we based our decision on and our engineers assured us that given the location of that transmitter site at Camp Fortune, and at that power, we were more than adequately serving the communities within the .5 millivolt contour.

1649 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: So as was asked previously, from a strictly technical point of view how do you rate or rank the technical parameters that you filed with Industry Canada in terms of your proposal? How does it maximize the use of the FM channel's potential? I gather it is in the .5 contour that you feel you are maximizing the use of this particular frequency?

1650 MR. L. LOMBARDI: Yes. Given the population stats of our potential audience, 99.9 per cent of our audience resides within the .5 millivolt contour.

1651 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Are you aware of any other FM frequency that could be used to suit your proposal?

1652 MR. L. LOMBARDI: Eighty-nine point nine would also suit our needs. It provides a very similar contour to 97.9.

1653 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: I'm referring actually to other than the frequencies we have before us.

1654 MR. L. LOMBARDI: No.

1655 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Are there any other frequencies?

1656 MR. L. LOMBARDI: No. I'm sorry, no.

1657 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: You have not done any studies?

1658 What about AM? have you considered frequency option in the AM band?

1659 MR. L. LOMBARDI: No, we haven't considered it.

1660 Our position with AM, although our goal is to provide ethnic broadcasting in Ottawa/Hull, we prefer not to launch this radio station on the AM band.

1661 We feel that that ethnic communities in Ottawa would respond more favourably to an FM frequency. I think the level of sophistication today with regards to music and even spoken word almost demands that those services be available on the FM band and an AM frequency would not be as welcomed and would retard the development of the station.

1662 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Okay. Thank you.

1663 I think that completes my questions, Madam Chair.

1664 As you know from previously, perhaps there are other questions from colleagues and counsel and then you will have a chance to come back for a three-minute wrap up.

1665 Thank you very much for responding to my questions.

1666 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Commissioner Pennefather.

1667 Commissioner Cardozo, please.

1668 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you, Madam Chair.

1669 I just have one fairly general question. I found this discussion extremely helpful to getting a fuller understanding of your application.

1670 I'm just wondering if either Lenny Lombardi or Mr. Johnny Lombardi want to respond to my question.

1671 If I can ask you to cast your mind back 35 years ago when you started CHIN in Toronto and compare that situation to the situation in Ottawa/Hull today, this is the first time, I think -- I may be wrong, but I think that we are looking at -- we have applications for an ethnic licence here in Ottawa. Certainly if we were to license one of these applications it would be the first time that such a service would be up and running here.

1672 The situation in Ottawa, is it similar to what it was in Toronto in terms of the multicultural development of this larger metropolitan area?

1673 You have talked about the ethnic community being about one-third of the population, half of that being immigrant. Was it about these proportions when you started CHIN 35 years ago in Toronto?

1674 MR. L. LOMBARDI: I think the comparison between the two markets is certainly there and it is very strong, but when I think back to the early days of CHIN Radio, we were basically just writing the book on multicultural broadcasting as we went along.

1675 It's very much a different environment today and the people which we are serving today in Toronto and those who we wish to serve here in Ottawa are very different from the recent immigrant arrivals to Toronto in the late sixties.

1676 There have been so many great advances with respect to integration of new Canadians into Canadian society on all levels of government and social perspectives, it's difficult to compare those to markets. What does remain, however, is the results of and the affirmation of what ethnic broadcasting has brought to this country and that is a unique pride in heritage and enrichment of our Canadian identity.

1677 That's what this station is all about here in Ottawa. That's what we propose that this station can do for, help and encourage within the ethnic communities here in Ottawa.

1678 Certainly the amount of information, the level of integration of the ethnic communities in Ottawa is certainly far different than it was in 1968 when CHIN was just a few years old. It's a much different community, but what still remains is the love of the culture and the expression of that culture within the Canadian society.

1679 That's what Toronto has. It has that on a daily basis and it has that being represented not only by six ethnic licences, but all sorts of other specialty services, a rich cultural environment that is just exploding year after year.

1680 We would like to bring and create and help create some of that dynamism here in this fabulous City of Ottawa.

1681 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Do you see it in terms of getting a station like this launched where, if you were to be licensed, it would be the first ethnic licence in the area? Would it be a major challenge, a bigger challenge than, say, for an English or French station in terms of getting advertising, convincing advertisers that there is a viable advertising opportunity for them?

1682 MR. L. LOMBARDI: We don't think so. We think that an ethnic station would be immediately embraced by the communities in which we serve and I think the loyalty and support --

1683 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: You are looking for advertising beyond the communities per se. You mentioned the Royal Bank, I think it was.

1684 MR. L. LOMBARDI: Right.

1685 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So in terms of going beyond the communities and perhaps even the communities, you don't think it's a hard sell to get them to advertise on your station.

1686 MR. L. LOMBARDI: It was always a hard one and it will be I think difficult in the early stages. I think what we will be able to prove is that multicultural broadcasting is a reality here in Ottawa and it's quite viable and eventually it will be supported, but it won't be supported immediately. It will always hang back and wait and see and the wait and see if that station generates audience, if it has listeners.

1687 If it can prove to the business community that it can deliver audience, then the loyalty will follow. We know that very well. That's our motto and that's how we have developed CHIN.

1688 You mention the early days. Well, in the early days because we were never measured by BBM, my dad created the CHIN International Picnic. In fact he called the first one the First Annual Spaghetti Dig-in. It later grew to an event that represents so many different cultures in Toronto.

1689 The reason we started the picnic is not just because we wanted to have a party, which is also a great idea, but to prove audience to advertisers who were very sceptical that this thing called multicultural broadcasting could actually work.

1690 In effect, we drew 10,000 to the Olympic Island the first year and it grew top 20,000 and 30,000 and 40,000. Now we boast 250,000 people. We are celebrating our 35th anniversary of picnics this year.

1691 It's that kind of stability and longevity and dedication that makes ethnic broadcasters succeed. If they are not prepared to make those kinds of commitments, they won't last.

1692 MR. CULLITON: Can I just add something there. When we did our business plan, we were very conservative. Just as an example, we used the Chinese where we set a 40 per cent sellout at $20 and $25. That represents nine 30 second spots an hour, so it's not very much in the market to go out, I believe, and sell nine 30 second spots.

1693 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you.

1694 Thank you, Madam Chair.

1695 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

1696 Commissioner Demers, please.

1697 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Thank you, Madam Chair.

1698 Mr. Lombardi, maybe building on my colleague's last questions, CHIN coming to an area like Ottawa and Hull, bilingual, Quebec next door or Quebec inside, so I would like you to talk about that, whether you consider yourself an Ottawa station or an Ottawa-Hull. I would like you to explore that for me, please.

1699 MR. L. LOMBARDI: We consider ourselves an Ottawa-Hull station in that we recognize that there are members of the ethnic communities in which we choose to serve living on the Hull side, so we would include those individuals in our programming format.

1700 We intend to service those individuals who want to receive our programs based on the contour of that signal so, yes, we do consider ourselves a Hull station.

1701 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: And that would be reflected on your programming.

1702 MR. L. LOMBARDI: It would from the context of interests and expression by our listeners on the Hull side and certainly with respect to our cross-cultural programs that would be hosted in English and French.

1703 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: I don't have with me your list of the members of your advisory board. Is there a significant portion of these volunteers who live on the Quebec side?

1704 MR. L. LOMBARDI: To my knowledge, none of them live on the Quebec side. However, almost all of them have dealings within the ethnic communities that live on the Quebec side. Therefore, I feel that they have the sensitivities to those issues.

1705 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Thank you.

1706 Thank you, Madam Chair.

1707 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

1708 Mr. Lombardi, if you had two or three criteria to use only, what would you say the difference will be between the groups and the amount of percentage of programming given to linguistic and cultural groups in the Toronto FM and the Ottawa one, just if someone wanted you in a snapshot to invest money in your station and knows that they are a Toronto station. How would you describe the difference?

1709 MR. L. LOMBARDI: I'm sorry, I don't think I got the question.

1710 THE CHAIRPERSON: You have your Toronto FM where you serve a number of linguistic groups and cultural groups.

1711 MR. L. LOMBARDI: Right.

1712 THE CHAIRPERSON: And you have a proposal here that is the proposal we are looking at. If you were asked, not by a Commissioner but by someone who is interested commercially and wanted a very short answer --

1713 MR. L. LOMBARDI: Yes.

1714 THE CHAIRPERSON:  -- and that person had listened or is familiar with your Toronto station, how would you describe the difference with this one?

1715 MR. L. LOMBARDI: The difference between Toronto and Ottawa?

1716 THE CHAIRPERSON: The major difference between the two in the groups and the language served. I don't want exact percentages, but how different would it sound?

1717 MR. L. LOMBARDI: Well, certainly in reflection of population size, it's much smaller than --

1718 THE CHAIRPERSON: No, no. I mean on the antenna. You serve a number of groups in Toronto so there is "X" number of hours granted to "X" number of groups. You have a proposal of that type of your schedule in Ottawa.

1719 MR. L. LOMBARDI: Yes.

1720 THE CHAIRPERSON: What will be the major difference between the two? Will it be more Italian, less Italian, more Portuguese, less Portuguese? What would be the distinguishing factor between Ottawa and Toronto?

1721 MR. L. LOMBARDI: Because you mentioned our FM frequency -- thank you, I finally got the point -- there are striking resemblances between our CHIN FM and Ottawa FM with respect to the amounts of programming we are providing to the various --

1722 THE CHAIRPERSON: More similarities than dissimilarities.

1723 MR. L. LOMBARDI: Well, you know, I suspect we have about what, 15, 20 hours --

1724 THE CHAIRPERSON: My question leads to saying you have described or you are aware of the fact and Ottawans are as well that we have a high proportion of Arabic probably Muslim population, immigrant population in Ottawa, more so per capita than in Toronto.

1725 MR. L. LOMBARDI: Yes, that's correct.

1726 THE CHAIRPERSON: So how will that be reflected?

1727 MR. L. LOMBARDI: The Arabic community is being served by 12 hours.

1728 THE CHAIRPERSON: And in Toronto?

1729 MR. L. LOMBARDI: Much smaller. It's a much smaller --

1730 THE CHAIRPERSON: So that's a difference. Give me any other difference. I'm trying to reach the --

1731 MR. L. LOMBARDI: We could take the Italian, four hours a day which is 20 hours a week on FM.

1732 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but you have AM as well.

1733 MR. L. LOMBARDI: It also serves, but it has a larger Italian community in Toronto. It probably has as many as there are ethnics that are here in Ottawa. That goes for the Chinese.

1734 THE CHAIRPERSON: I am trying to see per capita. What I'm aiming at is to what extent is this going to be synergetically a child of your Toronto product as opposed to something that is really pitched to the realities of this community.

1735 In examining your application, you obviously can see that there will be some open line programming that will be shared, there will be an attempt to synergize with CHUM, et cetera. One of the concerns that may be left is is this really going to be a Toronto station tweaked somewhat to reflect Ottawa?

1736 For example, there's a large Portuguese population in Ottawa. That is my understanding. Here you have the hours. I stand to be corrected. Somebody can check.

1737 We are all talking, of course, ratios here. You know it's a smaller city.

1738 MR. L. LOMBARDI: Yes.

1739 THE CHAIRPERSON: And there's not a lot of programming in Portuguese. Is that because you don't do Portuguese in Toronto because somebody else does it and, therefore, you are not going to do it in Ottawa because there are no synergies?

1740 Give me a better level of comfort that this is not going to be a Toronto project tweaked to fit Ottawa, but more difficult to sell as a real Ottawa project.

1741 MR. L. LOMBARDI: For all intents and purposes, what we believe we have presented is an excellent application that takes advantage of the synergies in Toronto. It's virtually impossible for us to mimic or imitate or to jazz up a Toronto version.

1742 This station is going to be run by Ottawans. It's going to have its studios in Ottawa. We are going to employ 15 staff members from the Ottawa area. The advisory board is all from Ottawa. Our associate producers are coming from Ottawa.

1743 To me it's very difficult to envision how the programming, therefore, because these are the individuals who are creating the programming along with the CHIN staff in Ottawa, are going to create another Toronto -- the Toronto station and let the Toronto station --

1744 THE CHAIRPERSON: I was thinking more of the production. If you heard from the Portuguese, for example, there's two hours of programming. Has somebody found yet what the numbers are for the Portuguese community?

1745 MR. L. LOMBARDI: It's approximately 9,000.

1746 THE CHAIRPERSON: Where does it stand in numbers? You know where I'm going. So you would be open to the Portuguese community saying "Listen, we have a large community here" and it's interested. You would be open then to -- because it's smaller than the Italian, that's true. The Arabic is much larger. It doesn't get as many hours of programming as the Italian.

1747 The suspicion becomes is it because you are more aware, you know more about programming to these communities than to others and that's the reason rather than the actual composition of the third language population in Ottawa?

1748 MR. L. LOMBARDI: No. Let me clarify this as best I can.

1749 The program schedule that we have provided for Ottawa-Hull is based primarily on the size of the community which we propose to serve, and another component of that decision-making is the economic viability of that community's ability to support the advertising.

1750 THE CHAIRPERSON: Because of its size.

1751 MR. L. LOMBARDI: So not only the size --

1752 THE CHAIRPERSON: In other words, you need to program to the Italians to be able to program to the smaller. I understand.

1753 MR. L. LOMBARDI: That addresses the whole issue of subsidization and making programming.

1754 THE CHAIRPERSON: That is what we want to hear: what are the components rather than simply -- so it has to be a composition of the size because of Ottawa and your ability to program because of your experience.

1755 MR. L. LOMBARDI: And it is also what the local ethnic communities have demonstrated: the economically viable support for that radio station.

1756 THE CHAIRPERSON: So a community that may be mature enough to support advertising in Toronto may not be here simply because of the numbers.

1757 MR. L. LOMBARDI: Absolutely.

1758 THE CHAIRPERSON: And there has to be some realism put into the business plan. That helps.

1759 Mr. Lombardi, I understand that CHIN Toronto is received in Ottawa by cable.

1760 MR. L. LOMBARDI: Yes, it is.

1761 THE CHAIRPERSON: Both FM and AM.

1762 MR. L. LOMBARDI: Well, it is receiving one signal, which is a mix of our AM and FM.

1763 THE CHAIRPERSON: So it is a special mix.

1764 Do you have any indication of how popular it is?

1765 MR. L. LOMBARDI: Our indication is that it is appreciated and used. We don't have any specific stats with respect to that.

1766 THE CHAIRPERSON: No measurement. Nor have you attempted to see by any means what the reception or the demand for it is.

1767 MR. L. LOMBARDI: No.

1768 MS McLAUGHLIN: Well, actually, I have.

1769 THE CHAIRPERSON: You will get a good dinner, Ms McLaughlin.

--- Laughter / Rires

1770 MS McLAUGHLIN: BBM, although it fails to really adequately survey this market, still is the benchmark and you can at least relatively chart the progression of the station in the market and who is listening to it.

1771 I have looked at it in BBM, and it does not really register any sufficient numbers. That is similar to a lot of cable carried stations.

1772 It is the delivery mechanism, not the programming, that I believe to be the problem.

1773 THE CHAIRPERSON: For that answer, you may not get dessert.

1774 Counsel...?

1775 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

1776 Very briefly, Mr. Lombardi: Looking at your pro forma statement of revenues, I take it you would not be involved in brokerage in any fashion.

1777 Is that fair?

1778 MR. L. LOMBARDI: Yes, that is correct. Our relationship with the producers of our ethnic programming here in Ottawa, as in Toronto, is one of association.

1779 In the traditional sense of brokerage, individuals purchase the air time and rebroadcast their programs and sell the advertising and retain all of that revenue. They basically pay a flat fee. We don't do that.

1780 Associate producers are, as we describe them, members of the organization. We provide the services for them to initiate broadcast. We jointly sell the programs, and we share the revenues.

1781 If no revenues are sold within a given ethnic program, that particular producer is not out of pocket those costs. There is just no money to share.

1782 MR. RHÉAUME: When you say you share the revenues, the revenue statement that we have with your application would be your portion?

1783 In year one, your projected revenue is $892,000. Is there a sharing in any fashion with the associate producers?

1784 MR. CULLITON: Yes. If you look under selling expenses, there is a commission in there which is the associate producer's share. It is some $297,000.

1785 The revenues at the top are gross, and the expenses are reflected under sales, advertising and promotion.

1786 MR. RHÉAUME: I see. If you take, as an example, in Schedule 18 at the top the Dutch programming, that would bring in $41,600. The Dutch producers or the associate producers would get a percentage of this?

1787 MR. CULLITON: That is correct.

1788 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you.

1789 Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

1790 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, counsel.

1791 Messrs. Lombardi and the Misses Lombardi, you are very experienced ethnic broadcasters. Do you think it is possible for someone to implant in Ottawa a station with 37 cultural groups and 20 different languages without the synergies of having experience in other stations somewhere else?

1792 MR. L. LOMBARDI: I think it would be very difficult for that type of stand-alone operation to be successful.

1793 THE CHAIRPERSON: Why would that be?

1794 MR. L. LOMBARDI: The synergies that we are able to bring to the station reflect the savings, in our opinion, of anywhere from $150,000 to $200,000 annually, and that would go right to the bottom line.

1795 For example, with respect to launching the station in a pre-launch promotion, we would be able to do that with our existing cable and television services. A stand-alone station would have to purchase that type of advertising or find other means, and that would be an out of pocket expense.

1796 We are best equipped, in our opinion, to do the optimum job of serving as many communities as we have indicated because we have the opportunity to take full advantage of those synergies.

1797 THE CHAIRPERSON: That, in your view, allows you to serve more of the smaller community from which you won't get any revenue.

1798 MR. L. LOMBARDI: That is correct.

1799 THE CHAIRPERSON: The savings allows you to have more groups, even though some of them would get not too many hours of programming.

1800 MR. L. LOMBARDI: It is also a reflection of virtual void of programming that currently exists. Our choice is to subsidize the smaller groups.

1801 By synergies, we are capable of doing that.

1802 THE CHAIRPERSON: Of shifting that. Otherwise, I suppose the answer would be to pitch even more programming to the large communities, like the Italian community or the Cantonese.

1803 MR. L. LOMBARDI: I am not convinced that they could afford to support more. That really becomes a dilemma.

1804 I think as a dedicated ethnic broadcaster, you have to stick to the market you know best. In this particular market, given the size of the community, we feel that this is the best business plan and best programming schedule.

1805 THE CHAIRPERSON: Unless my colleagues have other questions, we leave you the last word, Mr. Lombardi.

1806 MR. L. LOMBARDI: I think we have had a very interesting and extensive discussion about our application. I don't know if there is anything more we can add.

1807 I do feel strongly that we have certainly met the criteria with respect to this application. I think we have shown that in the demand in the market; that there is a strong demand for our station. I hope we have impressed upon you that we can deliver what we promised.

1808 I think we have demonstrated that we continue to make a contribution to the objectives of the Broadcasting Act and certainly the ethnic policy.

1809 Our Canadian talent development, I am very encouraged and excited about those initiatives, and we look forward to being able to present those to the city of Ottawa.

1810 I think diversity is something that is tantamount in our application and something that we would certainly excel in, considering that we will partner with over 20 associate producers, providing many new voices to the radio waves of Ottawa.

1811 We have a very strong business plan, and we have the financial resources to make this application work. We have been at this business for a long time. We think Ottawa is deserving and needing of this frequency and this application. With CHIN behind it, we can make this multicultural radio station in Ottawa a reality.

1812 Thank you very much.

1813 THE CHAIRPERSON: We thank you, Mr. Lombardi and family, for your co-operation.

1814 Do feed Ms McLaughlin even if she didn't find any BBMs for you.

1815 We will be back tomorrow morning at nine o'clock with Radio Ville-Marie.

1816 Alors, nous serons de retour à 9 heures demain matin pour entendre Radio Ville-Marie.

1817 Bonsoir à tous.

--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1730, to resume on Wednesday, May 23, 2001 at 0900 / L'audience est ajournée à 1730, pour reprendre le mercredi 23 mai 2001 à 0900