ARCHIVED -  Transcript - Burnaby, BC - 2000/11/29

Transcripts

In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages

Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be

bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members

and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of

Contents.

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded

verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in

either of the official languages, depending on the language

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.

Transcription

Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues

officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront

bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des

membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience

publique ainsi que la table des matières.

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu

textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée

et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues

officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le

participant à l'audience publique.

Burnaby, British Columbia / Burnaby (C-B)

--- Upon resuming on Wednesday, November 29, 2000

at 0900 / L'audience reprend le mercredi

29 novembre 2000 à 0900

10005 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning.

10006 Before we call the first intervenor, I would like to remind those applicants who have committed to filing written information and technical studies with us, that they are required to do so prior to the start of Phase IV, which we expect to be about mid-day tomorrow, just as a reminder.

10007 Thank you.

10008 Madam Secretary.

10009 MS VOGEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

10010 Our first intervenor this morning is Peters Management Ltd.

10011 Would you come forward, please?

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

10012 MR. PETERS: Chairman, Members of the Commission, good morning.

10013 My name is Peters and I am the retired President and CEO of WIC, Western International Communications, and Chairman of the Board of BCTV and CHEK-TV in Victoria, CHBC in Kelowna, as well as Chairman of the Board of Radio NW and CFMI in Vancouver, as well as a lot of other broadcasting stations across the country.

10014 My appearance here today is in support of the application filed by Robert Sunter, Robert Blackwood and Catherine Robertson for a commercial classic music jazz FM radio station that will meet the needs of the greater Vancouver region currently underserved in the area of radio music entertainment.

10015 In my intervention I stated that in 1988 I was asked by the Mayor of Vancouver to Chair the Vancouver Symphony Orchestra Board. At that point the orchestra was bankrupt, out of business, and in the hands of a receiver. I learned very quickly that that was the good news. I didn't realize what a big job it was going to be.

10016 From April, when we were appointed, through June, we raised $3 million. That is less than two months. The $3 million was key to our going ahead with the restoration of the symphony orchestra or not. We needed that much money in order to get there.

10017 We discovered in our fundraising campaign that there was an incredible groundroots support for concert music in this city. Everyone supported our plans to reinstate the Vancouver Symphony.

10018 Now, how does that relate to our application for Classic Radio 94.5?

10019 During that period I came to realize -- as a crass commercial broadcaster I came to realize, as a result of my experience with the VSO, the important grassroots support that exists for symphony music and jazz in this city, and indeed throughout the province. That grassroots support overwhelmed me, because I thought I knew the greater Vancouver area.

10020 That grassroots support for concert music and jazz is the application, or one of the applications you are dealing with in this hearing.

10021 I want to emphasize that this market is being grossly underserved with concert music and cultural news. We have one of the most successful jazz festivals in this city that there is North America. However, when it comes up to the jazz festival it is almost impossible to find out what is going on, because none of the radio stations, including the CBC, will tell you what is being featured, what is going on, and so on.

10022 So while my first love is concert music, my second love is jazz. Frankly, this community is grossly underserved as far as jazz music is concerned on the broadcasting dial.

10023 This is an album by Diana Krall. This is the top selling jazz record in North America. Diana Krall is from Nanaimo on Vancouver Island and she learned her basic training in a small public school on Vancouver Island. This is an example of the kind of fine musicians and the interest in jazz and the interest in what I consider concert and jazz entertainment. That is an example of the kind of grassroots we have in the Province of British Columbia.

10024 All of this led -- my strong feeling towards concert music and jazz, all of this led to my support for the application for a Classic 94.5 FM. This proposal would be locally owned, managed, programmed, produced featuring much needed and sought after local arts and entertainment programming.

10025 Thus the reason I have supported this application and I urge the Commission to grant them the licence.

10026 Thank you very much.

10027 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Peters.

10028 Commissioner Demers.

10029 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Thank you, Madam Chair.

10030 Good morning, Mr. Peters. A very few questions.

10031 It is interesting to hear from you, who was president of two radio stations.

10032 In your written intervention and in your oral comments this morning you indicate that jazz and concert is really underserved. Do you have any explanations for that, being in the system for a long time? Why would there not have been stations with jazz and concert, as you support today?

10033 MR. PETERS: I ask myself the same question, because following the broadcast spectrum all over North America, most major cities in North America have a concert and jazz radio station. I know the one in Montreal, for example, is extremely successful.

10034 You will recall that in the dates that I was outlining when I was involved with the Vancouver Symphony, it started in 1988 and I retired from broadcasting 1990. Had I stayed in broadcasting at the time, I can tell you, having gone through my experience with the incredible grassroots support we got from putting back together the Vancouver Symphony, I would have applied for that licence for a classic and jazz station then, but I retired at the beginning of 1990. Frankly, once you retire no one listens to you anyway.

10035 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Thank you.

10036 I have no further questions.

10037 Thank you, Mr. Peters, Madam Chair.

10038 MR. PETERS: Thank you very much.

10039 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Peters.

10040 MR. PETERS: Thank you.

10041 Nice to see you again.

10042 THE CHAIRPERSON: Nice to see you. I appreciate you taking the time to come to our hearing.

10043 MS VOGEL: Our next intervenor is Peter Newman.

10044 Would you come forward, please.

--- Pause / Pause

10045 MS VOGEL: Not seeing any movement, Madam Chair, we will recall Mr. Newman later.

10046 I would like to invite Maple Ridge Jazz and Blues Festival Society to come forward, please.

--- Pause / Pause

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

10047 MR. STUART: Good morning.

10048 Hello, my name is Greg Stuart. I represent the Maple Ridge Jazz and Blues Festival Society. We are a non-profit society whose mandate is to promote jazz and blues music and produce an annual free festival featuring jazz and blues music. We are the largest free jazz and blues festival in western Canada, and possibly Canada, and we attract approximately 13,000 people to the one-day event.

10049 Our society is made up of volunteers with no paid staff. We also promote education opportunities for aspiring jazz musicians through a scholarship program.

10050 Jim Pattison Industries contacted our society to ask for our input on the talent development initiatives in their application for a new jazz formatted FM licence. We were very happy to be asked for our input, because the successful applicant should serve the interests of the whole region.

10051 Jim Pattison Industries felt it was important to involve Fraser Valley stakeholders in the process. Being an established broadcast entity in the region, they knew who to contact and what their investment might be in this process. We were not contacted by any of the other applicants, but we understand from some of the Vancouver stakeholders they were contacted by several of the applicants for their input.

10052 The FM signal does not stop at Vancouver or Burnaby's borders, therefore the whole region has an interest in these proceedings.

10053 The successful applicant should be aware of the regional jazz scene outside of Gastown, Kitsilano or Commercial Drive. Because of their well established regional network, Jim Pattison Industries have been able to make inquiries beyond Vancouver's borders and garner valuable information on the whole region's developing jazz scene.

10054 Our society's overriding interest in the application that Jim Pattison Industries is submitting are the funds that are committed to artist development and artist exposure in the region. The Project COOL and COOL Around Town program initiatives outlined in the Jim Pattison Industries application commit $2.1 million to regional talent development initiatives during the first term of the licence. These initiatives are very important to an underexposed regional jazz scene.

10055 I have heard reference to the smooth jazz format as being pop jazz or jazz lite or, by some purists, not jazz at all. But I think it is jazz. Jazz is a very broad term in music. If you don't want to call it smooth jazz it could be termed accessible jazz.

10056 When I started listening to jazz in the early '70s, I was introduced to the genre by a record label called CTI Records. CTI was the brainchild of a man named Creed Taylor. He is a record producer. Creed Taylor introduced jazz music to a new generation of listeners. He did this by presenting jazz artists in a more accessible pop treatment. He took artists like Freddie Hubert, Hubert Laws and a young George Benson and framed their talents in a format more palatable to the uninitiated jazz listener.

10057 After getting hooked on CTI Records, my friends and I moved on to be-bop and big band swing and what was called jazz-fusion, a blend of jazz and other musical styles that was popular in the '70s and survives in various forms today.

10058 From there we explored more outside avant-garde jazz forms such as Ornette Coleman and such, that can only be described as Fellini films for your ears.

10059 My point being, I may not have been introduced to this music at all had it not been for Creed Taylor and CTI Records and his accessible, accessible jazz.

10060 The way to grow a jazz audience is to present the first-time listener with a format that he or she can relate to. I believe the smooth jazz format is the correct approach.

10061 The smooth jazz approach is advantageous for another -- maybe the most important reason and that is business. Of course commercial radio is first and foremost a business. The successful applicant, and I am sure the Commission, want the applicant to be commercially successful and thus a reliable, dependable ingredient in the regional broadcast radio marketplace.

10062 Jazz fans in the region, whether they support the smooth jazz format or not, I'm sure will agree that the region needs an FM jazz station, and I'm sure they also want the station to be a successful and permanent fixture in our community.

10063 The regional jazz scene needs the talent initiative funding that the successful applicant will provide on a long-term basis. Our society feels that the smooth jazz format will help ensure long-term success by appealing to a larger audience as well a attracting new listeners into the jazz fold, which is very, very important.

10064 We realize there are applicants for this licence that are not pursuing a jazz music licence in any of its forms, but we feel the need for a jazz FM licence for our region is long overdue.

10065 Jimmy Pattison's business record stands on its own merits. It is second to none. Jim Pattison Industries have an excellent business plan that includes a generous commitment to regional artist development.

10066 Because of their already well-established regional business interests, they have a managerial and technical infrastructure in place that will ensure a smooth start-up should they be granted this application. They are the only regional smooth jazz applicant and have shown they are sensitive to the needs of the stakeholders in the whole broadcast region, as is evidenced by my appearance here today.

10067 Jim Pattison and his companies have shown both a corporate and private commitment to this region, and the Province of British Columbia, and we, as a society, feel that our objectives, as well as the interest of jazz fans in general, will be exceptionally well represented by Jim Pattison Industries and COOL-FM.

10068 Thank you for the opportunity to express some of my Society's views, as well as some of my own personal views.

10069 Thank you.

10070 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Stuart.

10071 I just have one question for you really.

10072 First of all, we have six applicants competing for an FM jazz format.

10073 MR. STUART: Yes.

10074 THE CHAIRPERSON: I wonder if you could just elaborate for me a bit on the educational opportunities for aspiring musicians that your society --

10075 MR. STUART: We provide funding to -- or currently what we are doing is we are providing funding to send young musicians between 12 and 18 to summer music clinics. We have one of note that I believe Diana Krall and several of the other musicians from the area have been to in their younger years, and that is the New West Jazz Clinic, New Westminster, B.C. So we currently send two students there in the summer, but we are hoping to expand that.

10076 THE CHAIRPERSON: So these are students and young musicians identified in the Maple Ridge area. Is that it?

10077 MR. STUART: We invite applicants from the whole -- all over the Lower Mainland to appear on what we call a youth stage and then they are adjudicated and the top two winning candidates are there and then sent to the New West Jazz Clinic.

10078 THE CHAIRPERSON: How old are they?

10079 MR. STUART: Last year we had a saxophone player who was 16 and a trumpet player, I believe, who was 18.

10080 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr. Stuart.

10081 We appreciate you taking the time to be with us here today.

10082 MR. STUART: Thank you.

--- Pause / Pause

10083 MS VOGEL: Madam Chair, I am going to call two intervenors this time.

10084 Again, as usual, that doesn't mean they have less time. They each have their time and their questioning in turn, but we save on some commute time.

10085 So I would like to invite Canada Wide Magazines & Communications Ltd. and Barrett Communications Ltd. to come forward.

10086 THE CHAIRPERSON: Welcome.

10087 Whenever you are ready.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

10088 MR. LEGGE: Madam Chair, ladies and gentlemen, my name is Peter Legge and I am the President of Canada Wide Magazines & Communications Ltd. here in British Columbia. Our headquarters are in Burnaby. We publish 20 different magazines across Canada, primarily in western Canada, and many of them are here in British Columbia.

10089 As you have said, I am in support of Jim Pattison Industries and his application for this FM licence and I have three points that I would be privileged to make.

10090 First of all, in support of a smooth jazz concept, vocals, the Diana Kralls and the Kenny G.'s, it is a part of the market that I think is not being served and I think it could very well be served with that approval.

10091 Secondly, I think it is important that local ownership is critical to your approval of this licence, and I think it would help foster a regional radio network that is stationed right here in British Columbia as opposed to other parts of this great country.

10092 The third point is on Jimmy Pattison himself. What Jimmy has done, for not only this country but this province, is quite incredible. I have known Jimmy for in excess of 20 years and I can assure you that what Jimmy Pattison says, he does. He is absolutely a man of his word. His integrity is unimpeachable and I think that should be taken into consideration in your deliberations as you consider approving this licence.

10093 So I would encourage you to review all the applications -- obviously you will do that -- and look towards the Jimmy Pattison group as being the kind of people that what they say in their entirety they will do over the long haul. I know that is important to you, as it is important to the broadcast community in British Columbia.

10094 So thank you for having me here.

10095 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Legge.

10096 Maybe the easiest thing is to ask the questions now and then we will move on to Mr. Barrett, if that is okay, or do you want to --

10097 MR. BARRETT: That's fine.

10098 THE CHAIRPERSON: As you know, we have six applicants competing for a jazz format.

10099 MR. LEGGE: Yes, ma'am.

10100 THE CHAIRPERSON: Can you tell me why local ownership is so important, in the context of when we evaluate these competing applications, you know, each of which has different strengths perhaps, why is this important that we should be considering it? Can you just elaborate a bit?

10101 MR. LEGGE: Why is local ownership important?

10102 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

10103 MR. LEGGE: I think local ownership is important to the economy of our province. They are aware of the intricacies of the economies of this province, I think, better than -- I'm not sure exactly where all the other applications are from, but I am assuming they are outside of this province.

10104 In the magazine industry we have the same responsibility of local ownership. We are attuned to the needs of this province much faster and much quicker and can respond quicker and faster than ownership of other magazines outside of the province. I believe that would be true also of the broadcast industry.

10105 So that would be one of my reasons, that they can -- you know, when there is a fridge opening I'm at it, because I live here, and I think that is important.

10106 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

10107 Mr. Barrett.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

10108 MR. BARRETT: Yes, thank you, Ms Grauer and fellow panellists.

10109 First of all a disclaimer. I have no commercial or financial interest in this application or any other application and should I, in the future, ever make an application for myself I would be surprised.

10110 I want to tell you at the outset that indeed I have a very small communications company. I am the owner and single employee. It came about through a relationship that I had with one of the stations Mr. Pattison owned. It was CJOR at the time.

10111 In a brief interregnum of my varied career, both as a public servant and as an academic and in broadcasting, I had the opportunity to make a great deal of money. I became a talk show host. For me, in terms of my own experience, it was an obscene amount of money, but I wallowed in it, enjoyed it, and it certainly paid my debts.

10112 My employer was Pattison Industries. And because of my own political philosophy, obviously I was a questionable employee in terms of whether or not advertisers would be attracted to me. And certainly a number of advertisers would be abhorrent in terms of the kinds of positions I took. That didn't bother me, but I'm sure it bothered them.

10113 I say this because at the time I had been offered a number of opportunities and I chose this one with Pattison, believing that I would be free to say what I wanted, when I wanted to, with the sense of responsibility and certainly with as much integrity as potential in that method of communication.

10114 Never once -- never once was I interfered with by management. Never once were commercial interests or local interests or anything else used to interrupt any presentation that I wished to make. And I want to emphasize is that I had complete freedom and I acted very responsibly within that range of freedom.

10115 I chose to work with one of Jim Pattison's stations because I had known him as a youngster. We both grew up in the same part of Vancouver's east end. He came from a very working class background and so did I. We ended up on different sides philosophically politically, but that never changed our friendship.

10116 When I heard of Jim's current application for this, and I was approached by the station: Would I indeed make a presentation? I said yes, I would, but certainly on my own terms, as has always been the case.

10117 The one outstanding factor about Pattison is that he has his own convictions, he has his own philosophy, but he has an open mind and a willingness to listen to other people in the community. He has established an incredible record of not absenting himself from the community, but throwing himself totally into the community.

10118 For a jazz licence, and I'm sure his own musical inclinations are attached to it, he would do the same thing. I know nothing of jazz. I am puzzled at my grandchildren listening to music that I find hard to define, but it certainly helps them in their own lessons, as all young children should take musical lessons. But the overriding thing is Pattison's interest in the community.

10119 In one instance, as an example, and he would blush if I told you this, but we have a niece who is in a high school in west Vancouver playing in a band. They wished to do some fundraising, and who showed up to help in their band with fundraising but Jimmy Pattison. These are the kinds of things this man does.

10120 He would never vote for me. I would never vote for him --

--- Laughter / Rires

10121 MR. BARRETT: -- but I want to tell you that his role and his sense of community responsibilities in all of the businesses that I have seen him be associated with is unparalleled.

10122 He has a commitment to this community and communities beyond, and for that reason I readily accepted the opportunity to come and say that in this time of concentrated ownership in this country -- which is a separate problem and we really haven't looked at it since the Kent Commission in communications -- in this time of concentrated ownership the one distinguishing factor for me that is absolutely important is a connection with the community, and Pattison has that.

10123 That is why I am here to say what I have said, and my opinion is that every bit of community commitment he has made in the past would be evidenced in this new extension if it were granted to him.

10124 THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, I don't know, you have pretty much answered my question before I asked it, so perhaps I could rephrase it.

10125 We have six applicants competing for the jazz format in particular. We have nine applicants for this, arguably what is the last FM frequency. Several of them operate stations in this market now. They are good operators, in addition to Pattison.

10126 We have had this discussion with several of them and several of the other applicants: To what extent, given the number of factors we are going to be looking at in evaluating these applications, should we consider this factor of local ownership versus companies that are good local operators, who are here? I just wonder if you could elaborate a little bit on that.

10127 MR. BARRETT: Well, I think the key question of why I am here as well as supporting Mr. Pattison, I have no knowledge or valuation of any of the other applicants. I'm sure they are all very responsible applicants and have their own presentations and opinion. It is just that I am here on the basis of my own experience and the community's understanding of Pattison's performance.

10128 I have never seen him back down to the point of even losing money on OR when I was there. Because it was a great battle of ratings and I was a lone voice out in left field and he had other people on the station, but there was never an attempt to cut down an access to a different point of view.

10129 It was I who decided to go back to academia that left the station. So I found that very impressive, that he was willing to open and willing to have the challenge of another point of view and never become threatened with it.

10130 Then I discovered beyond that that the station itself was deeply involved in the community, and has remained deeply involved with the community because of his philosophy. I have no criticism of the other applicants and I have no knowledge of jazz, but I do know that his community record is impeccable.

10131 Now, absentee ownership, that doesn't mean that they wouldn't be sensitive to the community, but it is a question of whether or not it is an absolute priority. If there are competing regional interests on a business practice, then it can be a factor. That would be my major concern, as I have seen it happen in other media, particularly print.

10132 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Barrett.

10133 I believe Commissioner Cardozo has a question.

10134 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you, Madam Chair.

10135 I just want to take the issue a step further and challenge you a little bit more. I'm sure this has been done to you when you were a talk show host --

--- Laughter / Rires

10136 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: -- and, if not, then when you were a politician.

10137 But your career has certainly been dedicated, I think, to promoting things here in B.C., promoting business, but you have also, I'm sure, in the course of time, encouraged other businesses to come here and set up from other parts of the country.

10138 One of the things that is interesting in these applications, as was pointed out by one of the competing applications, one of the things we require of applicants is to put forward what we call a Canadian talent development program. It was pointed out by one of the others that Jimmy Pattison's -- the dollar amount was quite a bit lower than some of the ones who were headquartered in other provinces.

10139 So let me put that to you and say: Is that an issue that we should take into consideration, when the amount of money that somebody else may be willing to put up for Canadian talent development, in this case talent development in the jazz field, may be higher from companies that are headquartered outside the province, or is the issue of local ownership more important?

10140 MR. BARRETT: I think there are two questions you raise here, both of which I have an opinion on.

10141 One is on promises made and the gap between promises delivered. Now, I don't know what you do or how you do measure whether or not those promises are kept, but I have seen or heard and read of promises made in the print media of things that were going to happen with new ownership from out of town, of course no authoritative body is stopping them from going ahead with print. This is different. But I have seen a big gap between promises made and promises kept.

10142 In terms of local ownership, it has been my experience with the two and-a-half years I spent with CJOR that when issues came up and they needed a decision around funding or access to funding, there was no hesitation through management up to Pattison, who had a hands-on style, and still does -- I can't understand why, but that's his life -- but the reality is that it was always a positive response and I don't anticipate any change from that.

10143 I'm not criticizing any other person at all, I'm just saying my own experience.

10144 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. Thank you for that.

10145 On the accountability question, I do want to assure you that we do receive a fairly good accountability from the licensee in that they provide us with annual reports on how the money is spent, but I appreciate your answer to both those issues.

10146 Thank you.

10147 MR. BARRETT: Thank you.

10148 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Commissioner.

10149 Thank you very much, Mr. Barrett and Mr. Legge, for taking the time to come and speak to us today.

10150 MR. BARRETT: Thank you.

10151 MR. LEGGE: Thank you.

10152 MS VOGEL: I would like to call two intervenors at this time, Peter C. Newman and Peter Brown from Canaccord Capital Corporation.

10153 Would you come forward, please.

--- Pause / Pause

10154 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, gentlemen.

10155 MR. BROWN: Good morning.

10156 Who is first?

10157 THE CHAIRPERSON: Whenever you are ready, and whoever is speaking should have their microphone on. The other one could turn it off.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

10158 MR. BROWN: Madam Chair, ladies and gentlemen, I am not here in any way as an expert on the media industry. In fact, if you had ever told me in my life I would be sitting before the CRTC I would have said it would be impossible.

10159 What I am here primarily to do is to actually elaborate on some of the things that were said earlier, but to actually raise the alarm about local ownership.

10160 In a community like Vancouver you need -- the question is balance. You need a balance between international interests, national interests and local interests.

10161 In my life I have -- I am a third generation British Columbian and I think I have a good understanding of what is going on in the province, and I also had the privilege of serving as Vice-Chairman of the World's Fair here under Jimmy Pattison, and in that process I think I became a local expert on Jimmy Pattison.

10162 But in the various lives I have been Chairman of the university, the art gallery, the convention centres, B.C. Place, B.C. Development and Vice-Chairman Expo, as well as Chairman of Canaccord, which is the largest non-bank-owned dealer in the country, and we raise about $8 to $9 billion a year for Canadian corporations. So it gives us a sense of community and a sense of what is happening in the marketplace.

10163 An alarming trend in the last few years has been our loss -- an imbalance, I think, in local ownership and the loss, more importantly, of a lot of head offices. There is a big difference in the community between a head office town and a branch office town.

10164 If you just take in recent years, we have lost companies. I will just give you a few examples. B.C. Sugar, MacMillan Bloedel, Bank of B.C., Dayon, Scott Paper, B.C. Forest, Corona. We have lost some 200 companies to other jurisdictions head offices in recent times because of politics, taxation and regulation.

10165 Just examples of those would be, we have lost the Vancouver Stock Exchange, we have lost the Bank of B.C., we have lost financial institutions, and we have had companies that have been mainstays in this community for a long time moving to Alberta for tax reasons, such as Finning Tractor and TransMountain.

10166 Now, that is not a lot to do with the media, but what happens when that happens is you lose the community leadership that affects a wide range of activities in the community. You lose that sense of -- it affects donations, it affects opinion-making, it affects -- it dilutes the interest in the community, culturally, in charity, in community projects.

10167 I think, if I look at the media industry, as I see it, I see the same trend where the balance of national, international and local ownership is shifting away from local ownership and I believe very, very strongly that this is an important concern to everybody who lives in British Columbia. It affects employment, it affects community, it affects donations and community support, it affects cultural events, it affects leadership and thinking.

10168 It has a multiplier effect. As the head offices move, the management pool is diluted locally and the kinds of people we attract and hire change. Research dollars change. I think every British Columbian should be concerned.

10169 If I look from a distance -- and I am no expert on the media industry -- I look with alarm at the loss of WIC, Pacific Press. Pacific Press I think to me is a very good example, that when -- even though the Hollinger empire was not based here, the managing partner of Hollinger was based here, Dave Radler(ph), and in the period following their control of that, as a consumer only, you looked at the impact on -- the very rapid impact on The Sun and The Province, in my opinion the local content and the nature of that paper changed dramatically. Why? Because the senior partner lived here and was part of this community.

10170 Having said that, there are, in the new economy, some new businesses starting here, such as 360Net and Sierra Wireless, but my fear is we will lose them too because of taxation, regulation and some things will cause others to move and they will move closer to the market and I think they will become Americanized.

10171 So I am here, to sum up this argument, I am here (a) as an advocate of local ownership. I think the balance is out of balance in almost every field of business and corporate endeavour in the country, which I would include media.

10172 The other point I would make as an intervenor, I have known Jimmy Pattison for 30 years, and I have respected him for 30 years. But where I really saw him operate was during the Expo experience in which a man with a substantial business empire virtually turned it over for five years to his employees and was committed to a standard of excellence that I have never seen before. The results spoke for themselves, but I can tell you it was driven by Jimmy Pattison.

10173 Not only did he set a standard of excellence, but his commitment, while the fair was open -- and it has never been said, Mr. Pattison was there when the fair opened, seven days a week for eight months -- that is when the fair opened at 6:30 in the morning and would not leave until it closed, until we locked the gates at one o'clock at night -- seven days a week. It is typical of everything he does. In his own company, it is partners and pride and standards of excellence.

10174 There are three community examples that I will give you that I think are driven by local presence and local need.

10175 One would be a commercial example, the Urban Fair. It is not only a commercial project, but it is a community project and the effort that went into developing that recently -- everybody knows about the Expo experience.

10176 Recently we have in British Columbia a great researcher in the area of prostate cancer who came to Mr. Pattison with a relatively small program. Jimmy put a team to work on it, decided that they didn't need $10 million, they needed $40 million, and that this research being done out of British Columbia was imperative.

10177 So he redesigned their program, said: You need $40 million, and to get it I will match any donation anybody makes up to $20 million. That wouldn't have happened, in my opinion, unless there was -- they were dealing with somebody with local ownership, local pride and local pride of community and that it was important that we keep that research here.

10178 So, having said it, I am a huge advocate on the importance of the imbalance in head offices and local drive and I am a great supporter of the quality of work that Pattison puts into every endeavour that he does.

10179 I don't think I need to add to his efforts in the community. I think Dave Barrett summed them up very well. This is a British Columbian whom we should all be proud of.

10180 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Brown.

10181 I have just one question for you.

10182 As you have said in your letter and again today, consolidation is taking place in industries right across the board, whether it be media or anything else, and I am just wondering -- and we as a regulator have, in fact our new radio policy recognizes consolidation. We have had the transactions with WIC and the others in which we have recognized that it is good and important to grow big, strong Canadian companies and that consolidation is a part of that.

10183 So I'm just wondering if you could elaborate a bit on to what extent should we, as a regulator -- do we have responsibility or what role should we play with respect to this issue of local ownership?

10184 MR. BROWN: Well, if you look at the media business globally, there are massive consolidations going on and I think it is trend that will continue.

10185 But to me the question is balance. As I said when I started, I think in terms -- local ownership is an issue. What you should be concerned with is balance. We need international students, we need international -- in the education business we need students from eastern Canada, we need students from Japan.

10186 It is just a question of balance. We need international corporations, we need national corporations, but we do need -- there has to be a balance with local ownership and local leadership. It really affects far more than just a radio licence, it affects a whole range of activities that go on in a community.

10187 My thesis is that in British Columbia the balance is out of whack. I think there is no time more than now that we ought to be considered -- give a high consideration in a number of endeavours to local ownership. I think it -- I would almost -- I don't want to use a critical level, but it is close to critical.

10188 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

10189 Commissioner Cram has a question

10190 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you.

10191 I'm wondering, in a perfect world I hear you about local ownership. If we didn't have somebody who was a local owner, how do we mitigate so that the community would still get some of those collateral benefits?

10192 I know you talked about Pacific Press, that there was a senior partner living here, and in Telemedia I think we have one of the three owners who live

10193 here. Would we be looking at a corporate donation policy that perhaps sort of returns the money to the community from which they got it, so instead of having a huge blitz in, say Montreal or Toronto, that they would return a proportionate share here, or a bi-local policy? Does some of that mitigate the whole issue?

10194 MR. BROWN: When people live here, run their business from here, they have a head office here, all right, there is a tendency to take the community you live in the most seriously, even though you may have a national -- and it impacts every level of a corporate life.

10195 In our own firm we have recently -- we have operations across the country and now we have decentralized a lot of those decisions because we found that if we just left it in head office our big donations would be head office and our other donations would be very small. That is what was happening. So we have now decentralized some of those processes.

10196 But it is more than donations, it is supporting events, it is community leadership, it is community thought, it is community participation.

10197 I remember when Southam Press ran The Sun and Province. You would go -- no matter what event you went to, whether it was a political, cultural, athletic event, you never saw the publisher or editor of the Vancouver Sun, which is very unusual. They, I thought, became lesser. There was a very minimal community contribution, which I think altered substantially when the owners were here. I just use it as an example and I don't want to exaggerate it.

10198 But to lose 270 head offices in British Columbia in a seven-year period is an alarming -- to me a very alarming thing, and we have lost major players and it impacts all levels of the community.

10199 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you.

10200 Madam Chair.

10201 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Brown.

10202 Mr. Newman.

--- Pause / Pause

10203 THE CHAIRPERSON: You can leave, yes, you are permitted. You are excused I should say.

10204 And I would like to thank you very much for taking the time to come out and speak to us today.

10205 Thank you, Mr. Brown.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

10206 MR. NEWMAN: I would like to make a little different presentation. I will be speaking about Jimmy Pattison and the community a little later in my brief, but I thought I would begin by talking about jazz music.

10207 I happen to be not only a fan of jazz music, I play jazz music, I have my own band, I write liner notes for jazz albums in the States and here, and I am absolutely delighted that you are having this hearing, that there will be a jazz station, whatever it is.

10208 But I thought I would talk a little bit about jazz music and how it impacts on contemporary life, because I believe it does.

10209 The best definition of jazz came from Louis Armstrong. Louis Armstrong was once asked, "What is jazz music?" He shrugged and he said, "We play life." "We play life." I think that is a very good definition. I certainly have not heard a better one.

10210 Because the essence of jazz is improvisation. Musicians call it jamming. Improvisation is really the way we live now. You know, the structured life, whether it is professional life or personal life that we once led has been replaced by jamming.

10211 Now, when musicians talk about jamming they try to -- they are talking about playing where they try to remain true to a tune's rhythmic impulse but they dismember its tonal core, pass it around, turn it over, play it backwards, forwards, sideways, blow it out of sight, then finally home in on it and transform a standard melody into a new and exciting set of sounds. That is what makes jazz an art form and allows it to regenerate itself.

10212 Modern life, I reflect, has the same style of sort of loosy-goosy discipline as jazz music. Everything has become negotiable. We move from job to job and the old notion of graduating from high school or university and having a job is really passé.

10213 I think we have to differentiate between jobs and work. There is lots of work, but there are very few jobs.

10214 I use the analogy of cathedral builders in medieval times. There was no such job as a cathedral builder. There were carpenters who built the pews and stonemasons who built the walls and glazers who built the glass and then moved on. So that is, in a way, the way the future generations are going to have to live. They will have work, but they won't have too many structured jobs.

10215 And deals are like that, business deals. They are shaken up and then put together again in totally unexpected ways, just like jazz.

10216 So jazz music I think is sort of a theme or our times. And while it depends on the talent and the mood of the musicians who are playing it, and the chemistry they are able to build with their audiences, it does require a dedicated radio station, at least one, which plays that music.

10217 Because you cannot go to live concerts every night and you need it to accompany your life. You need jazz as kind of a background music to the life you lead and the life we all lead.

10218 I have studied all the applications, as much as I could, and I am particularly struck with this one, for two reasons.

10219 One is that I believe the people at the station are honest and sincere and will do what they promise.

10220 And, as everybody who has come up here has said -- and I want to repeat it myself -- the second reason is Jimmy Pattison.

10221 Unlike others, I am not particularly a friend of Jimmy Pattison's but I have studied him as a subject. I have written books which have big, big chapters on Jimmy Pattison. I spent months delving into his ethics, into his record, into his manner, into his life, and come up very dry in terms of anything that he ever did that wasn't totally honest and totally open.

10222 He lives up to his commitments. That has been said before, but I have to say it again.

10223 I have seen -- I have watched the CRTC, and I'm not talking about this group in this room, but I have watched the CRTC over the years and there are a lot of people who come up to the CRTC and make extravagant promises, and I have to say that they are not always kept. There is one recently, a television station here that was granted a licence and has not kept its promises. I make that point not to attack them, but simply to make the point that Jimmy Pattison will keep his promises.

10224 It is the kind of a statement you make and they you pass on, but I can't think of anything more important than making promises and keeping them.

10225 Also, there is a large philanthropic strain in Mr. Pattison, and people have mentioned this. It doesn't only operate in the big publicity areas. For example, he does some business in New York and he has donated a huge amount of money, strictly out of public concern, because it certainly didn't make him any profit, to the clean-up of Times Square. He has given a lot of money to churches, he has given a lot of money to individuals who were in trouble. That kind of thing is never publicized.

10226 And you have raised repeatedly the issue of local ownership. There is nothing to substitute for local ownership. In my last book I did a big chapter on the family dynasties who once dominated Canadian business, and whatever else you say about them, they were local and they were people who lived in the communities where they made business and they donated, not just their money but their time, their energy, to make those communities better. You can't substitute for that.

10227 No matter how much goodwill there is, a multinational or a transnational company that comes here and gets a licence, yes, they will go through the motions, and yes they may even spend some money, but it just doesn't compare with somebody who is in the marrow of the community itself and lives in the community and has relatives and children and grandfathers in the community, and that is Jimmy Pattison's strength, and I believe that is the strength of his application.

10228 I have deliberately not dealt with the technical aspects of it.

10229 There was a question raised about the fact that this station is not offering as much funds as some of the other applicants to spend on original talent, and I noted that, but my contention is that this is real money and it will be spent and the other money may not be as real and may not materialize, as past experience leads me to conclude.

10230 I would be happy to answer any of your questions.

10231 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Newman.

10232 Maybe what I should do is, just briefly -- this whole area sometimes of keeping promises and promises that are made, there are sort of two things that happen when applicants compete for a licence.

10233 I think there are very specific commitments made to the Commission in terms of Canadian talent development or benefits in the transaction.

10234 Then there are perhaps discussions held with the community and expectations that may be out there.

10235 I think those are the two that sometimes don't mesh in terms of whatever.

10236 But whether it is this panel or people who have gone before, I think that -- well, for the most part ,the Canadian talent development commitments that are made and end up being accepted we do monitor. So I think there is that.

10237 But I do think that there is, quite legitimately, another area of activity, that our expectations are often raised with respect to one applicant or another.

10238 I don't know if there is any -- perhaps what you could do is tell me: What do you think is the most important thing for us to be considering? We have six applicants for a jazz station here, and I was just wondering in our deliberations what you think is the most important.

10239 MR. NEWMAN: Well, I think there -- I guess the word is integrity, but there are two parts to integrity.

10240 One is the business part of it, which is: Will the winning applicant keep his promises or her promises.

10241 The second part of the integrity is the programming. You know, will it be a station that will reflect -- and by integrity I'm talking about jazz musicians who have integrity and play jazz as opposed to selling out and playing what used to be called hit parade songs or what is really not pure jazz.

10242 So I think there are two elements to the integrity issue and I think they are both important.

10243 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

10244 I believe Commissioner Cardozo has a question.

10245 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I would just like to pick your mind on the issue of the kinds of corporations that the country needs. You have certainly studied and written much about family dynasties and the Canadian establishment over many years, and to some extent as a regulator we do have the ability -- not necessarily the responsibility, but the ability to pick winners, essentially, is what we do and, in effect, when you pick winners somebody else who doesn't win is a loser in that context.

10246 Should we, in this globalized world, be more concerned about building big, strong Canadian companies or smaller local companies? Could you say, for example, that the big, strong ones will happen on their own, they don't need any help from the regulator, whereas the smaller ones, the local ones such as Jimmy Pattison -- and I don't necessarily want you to focus your answer just on Jimmy Pattison.

10247 MR. NEWMAN: No.

10248 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: What is your sense of what our role is as a regulator?

10249 MR. NEWMAN: It is a difficult choice, because obviously we need both, but I would like to make a choice and come down on the side of the smaller operators. Mainly because that is where the energy is, that is where the imagination is. If you are big already, you don't need those qualities, you just need money to get bigger.

10250 But I believe that in any creative field, such as broadcasting, there should be incentives for young entrepreneurs to come into the field with their new ideas, with their energy and with their imagination and create not just new stations but new kinds of stations. And because they depend on that one station or one small group of stations for their livelihood, they would try to make it as good as possible, attract as large an audience as possible so they can grow and become bigger and have a more diversified base.

10251 So I think the central role of the CRTC is to give these people a chance.

10252 I understand that there have to be large companies as well. They already exist. To simply make them larger I don't think allows for, if you like, the greenhouse effect of nurturing these new people who are essential to keep the industry alive and exciting.

10253 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Do we have a responsibility to help the big companies on the international stage?

10254 MR. NEWMAN: No, I don't think so. I think that is a different -- you know, you are presumably charged with Canadian content, with the Canadian system, and what they do outside the country I don't think is your problem or your territory.

10255 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. Thank you very much.

10256 Thank you, Madam Chair.

10257 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Commissioner.

10258 Thank you very much, Mr. Newman.

10259 I appreciate that you have taken the time to join us today.

10260 MR. NEWMAN: Thank you.

10261 MS VOGEL: Our next intervenor today is Dal Richards' Orchestra.

10262 Could you come forward, please.

10263 THE CHAIRPERSON: Ah-ha. It's a little early for this.

--- Pause / Pause

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

10264 MR. RICHARDS: Good morning. I am Dal Richards and I lead The Band.

10265 THE CHAIRPERSON: I know.

10266 MR. RICHARDS: I hate to test your memory, but -- you may be too young for this, but I will try to test your memory in any case.

10267 Music by The Band at The Top of the Town. CBC Dominion presents the music of Dal Richard's and his Orchestra from the Panorama Roof, high atop the Hotel Vancouver, overlooking the twinkling harbour lights of Canada's Gateway to the Pacific, featuring the song styles of Juliet.

10268 This is music by The Band at The Top of the Town.

--- Musical interlude / Intermède musical

10269 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Richards.

10270 MR. RICHARDS: Madam Chair and Members of the Board, my point in playing that theme is to illustrate the opportunities that I had as a 20-year-old when I first began broadcasting from the west coast here nationally across Canada. It all came about because of CJOR in those days. Even earlier than that, even earlier than the days of The Roof, the Panorama Roof when I was 22 and Juliet was 14, acting just as though we knew what we were doing.

10271 I was at McGee High School and Bernie Braydon(ph), who later went on to have a lot of success in Britain and the CBC as a broadcaster, television host, producer. He and I were students at McGee High School. We produced a school play and had a great deal of success with it -- at least we felt we did.

10272 So we went downtown and approached CJOR with a couple of ideas for programming. They accepted us and our ideas of programming and we had a little 15-minute show twice a week, for which we were paid $5.00 for two.

--- Laughter / Rires

10273 MR. RICHARDS: I didn't do as well as Dave Barrett did later.

--- Laughter / Rires

10274 MR. RICHARDS: But I bring this up just to illustrate that those opportunities existed then and I think they will exist again. I think Jimmy Pattison will be the person who will provide that opportunity.

10275 Because I have had a long association with Jimmy, some 40 years or more I guess. He was a member of the Kitsilano Boys Band, the famous Youth Band here in Vancouver, some years after I was. We were both members. We would cross paths at band reunions. I have a belief in Jimmy and his ideas about programming and broadcasting and giving opportunities to talented young people, because he thinks like a musician, because he is a musician.

10276 At these Kitsilano Boys Band reunions you could always find Jimmy down playing the second trumpet part on this little pocket cornet. He was always there lending his support. More than support, whereas we would -- the rest of us would go out and sell a few tickets, on the 35th anniversary of the band he was responsible for Mr. Delamont(ph) receiving a brand new car.

10277 We have crossed paths often when he has had his horn. He was often on my stage. At Expo 86 he would jump up on the stage with his horn and jam with us, jam with The Band, and he has done that at the Panorama Roof too over the years when we were playing special events.

10278 So I have no qualms about his dedication to music and dedication to talent.

10279 There is a great deal of talent just waiting to be exposed in Vancouver. I have what I call a List of Dal's Divas. I have 35 CDs in my possession recorded by local singers, female singers, all of professional quality, all of high professional quality, that I broadcast from time to time.

10280 That is just one illustration. I'm not talking about instrumentalists or male singers or any other category other than female. Thirty-five of these fine singers who will have an opportunity to be heard when Jimmy -- if and when Jimmy has access to the new FM channel.

10281 Those are my thoughts, Members of the Chair, on Jimmy and music in Vancouver as it was and as I hope it will be.

10282 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Richards.

10283 Commissioner Demers.

10284 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Thank you, Madam Chair.

10285 I think just one question.

10286 You have described your relationship with Mr. Pattison as he being a musician who knows what musicians are, music is.

10287 Can you go a little further in that thought and what is the relationship of an artist facing an owner that would not be a musician?

10288 MR. RICHARDS: I would think the average artist won't have an opportunity of facing an owner, first of all, but I think the philosophy of the station throughout, throughout management, throughout program directors, throughout management, the manager of the station, all through the station, will be reflected in the fact that the owner is a musician. I think it will make a difference.

10289 I think he will listen to his own station and appreciate or not appreciate what he hears and probably make his influence felt. And I'm sure that he will be aware of the encouragements that were offered him and will do likewise to struggling musicians.

10290 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Thank you.

10291 Just one more question.

10292 From your point of view as an artist, is a new voice in the market important? Maybe you could expand on that.

10293 MR. RICHARDS: Extremely important. That is why I mentioned these 35 divas and their CDs. They rarely have a chance for exposure. Rarely. They are all trying to pursue careers and the opportunity to be successful at a career is exposure and the demand from the public to be heard. That is how it comes about, with CDs played on-air, and at this point there are very few opportunities for airing those CDs.

10294 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: If that new voice is already in the broadcasting market, does it make a difference?

10295 MR. RICHARDS: If it already is?

10296 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: You know, the example Mr. Pattison has radio stations in the market and he is here asking for another licence, does this make a difference from the point of view of the artist, in comparison with somebody who would have a licence and who would not be already in your market?

10297 MR. RICHARDS: I am convinced it will. The program format, as it has been outlined to me, gives every opportunity for young jazz musicians, and other than jazz, to be frequently heard, to be part of the playlist on a regular basis, and that is what it takes to create a demand for your product, whether it be selling saxophones or selling your voice or your ability to perform.

10298 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Thank you, sir.

10299 Thank you, Madam Chair.

10300 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Commissioner.

10301 Thank you very much Mr. Richards.

10302 We appreciate your lovely performance and the fact that you have taken the time to come all the way and appear before us today.

10303 MR. RICHARDS: I appreciate the opportunity of appearing.

10304 Thank you very much.

10305 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

10306 We will hear one more and then take our morning break.

10307 MS VOGEL: I would like to call Pacific Academy to come forward, please.

--- Pause / Pause

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

10308 MR. McDONALD: Good morning and thank you for allowing us to appear today. My name is Gordon McDonald, I am the Chairman of the Board of Pacific Academy.

10309 Mr. Sutton, our Headmaster, who had previously corresponded with you to intervene is in Africa, in Uganda at the moment.

10310 So a few words about Pacific Academy and about our participation with this new station.

10311 Along with me is Mrs. Kim Franklin. She is the Director of Curriculum and part of the senior administration staff at Pacific Academy.

10312 Pacific Academy is pleased to support the application of Jim Pattison Industries Ltd. for a new FM station COOL-FM. To this extent we have entered into an agreement to form an alliance with the station which will enable us to accelerate the development of a continuing education program for adult students and to provide 15 places in each of two annual courses for designated groups, women, disabled persons, visible minorities and aboriginal persons.

10313 Pattison Broadcast group will contribute $50,000 annually over seven years to instruct and assist in the instruction in broadcast production and the nurturing of creative talent.

10314 Pacific Academy is an independent Christian school of close to 1,200 students. We are accredited by the British Columbia Ministry of Education as a Group 1 school and receive from the Ministry approximately 45 per cent of our operating budget.

10315 The school serves students and families from a wide range of socioeconomic, cultural, racial and ethnic backgrounds. Our international program currently has 44 students from various countries enrolled.

10316 Incorporated as an education and communication society, Pacific Academy currently offers courses to our students at the high school level that focus on video and audio production as well as new media.

10317 The Chandos Pattison Auditorium, a 1,500 seat facility, is used extensively by the student body and the community-at-large. In the current year, the auditorium has been used by 140 groups outside the school, including the Langley Fine Arts School, Surrey Arts Council, Vancouver Children's Festival and the Vancouver Symphony Orchestra.

10318 Pacific Academy has a record of involvement in the local and international community. Our students are actively involved in service projects ranging from working with foodbanks to sponsoring schools in Haiti and Uganda. The latter project educates, feeds and takes care of the health needs of over 400 students, most of them orphans as a result of the AIDS epidemic in that country.

10319 Outreach teams of students, parents and teachers are involved each year during spring break in several Central American, Eastern European and Asian countries assisting in humanitarian projects.

10320 On the local scene, we are involved in our community through activities such as students collecting and delivering food, blankets and clothing to intercity missions and a program called Kindergarten Buddies, in which people severely physically and mentally challenged from the Matsqui(ph) home of the Bethesda Association for Community Living interact with our students in the classroom.

10321 The Jim Pattison Foundation is the founding donor for the school and has contributed the funding for the land and buildings that constitute our campus.

10322 That rendering in front of you shows the campus currently and I will just point out where the new media centre will be.

10323 The school has a strong commitment to the arts and offers a wide range of courses in art, music and drama. In recent times we have begun to develop programs in the area of recording and broadcast in both audio and video on the Internet. Recently, students from Pacific Academy were winners in a national competition for producing an anti-racism ad. They were flown to Ottawa and their work was shown on several TV stations.

10324 It is our plan to construct a communication facility in the next 18 months. The facility will be used to train students and members of the community in audio and video production and for producing broadcast quality materials. This enhancement of our broadcasting facility has been made in response to an increased demand from the public and because in the Lower Mainland there are not sufficient spaces for students who wish to study in the area of broadcasting.

10325 The Jim Pattison Foundation has taken the lead role in providing funds for this $4.1 million communications centre. The new facility will provide education and training for both secondary school level students and post-secondary students, offering the opportunity for both specific courses and certification.

10326 Our new communications centre, including three studios as well as editing facilities and other equipment, will enable us to provide a wider array of courses in audio, video, film and new media, including interactive on-line materials and broadcasting audio and video via the Internet.

10327 The facility will give us the opportunity to offer continuous programs on these subjects after school, evenings, weekends and during the summer to the broader community than the student body.

10328 In the area of continuing education, we intend to offer two distinct courses each year. Each of these courses will consist of 20 weeks of instruction, 80 hours of instruction in those 20 weeks. One course will focus on video and audio production for broadcasting, the other will focus on new media broadcasting on-line.

10329 We currently have instructors and technical support, but we intend to add to our staff experts in various fields who will teach their specialties in these courses. With this in mind, we have already had contact with practising professionals in the area of camera operation, audio, video production and broadcasting.

10330 And, finally, our alliance with COOL-FM will, in our view, enable us to achieve a greater awareness of our program and our course offerings through the on-air promotions and advertising which will be part of their community commitment. We expect this to produce a larger enrolment overall in our continuing education program.

10331 If I might take just a moment to show the campus. This campus is almost 40 acres. All of these over here -- (off microphone) -- elementary school, our main school.

10332 THE CHAIRPERSON: Sir, I'm sorry.

10333 MR. McDONALD: Yes, okay.

10334 THE CHAIRPERSON: For the transcript.

10335 MR. McDONALD: For the transcript. Thank you.

10336 This is the 40-acre campus, approximately 40 acres of campus. These buildings are currently built. This is the high school building, the elementary school building, the middle school building, the cafeteria, the gymnasium, the Pattison Auditorium. All of those buildings are currently built.

10337 Over here is where the media centre will be constructed. This is the media centre here and then new entrances to the campus as well.

10338 There is a large gymnasium here, a gymnasium for the middle school.

10339 This building is a future development if the student body continues to increase. We have about 1,200 students and a 300 student waiting list, so we are probably going to expand as we go.

10340 And another gym here.

10341 But all of the buildings on the campus, all of the campus itself has been funded by the Pattison Foundation from the beginning.

10342 Perhaps Mrs. Franklin could add some ideas to give you an idea what our current curriculum offerings are in the areas.

10343 MS FRANKLIN: Good morning.

10344 Along with an outstanding commitment -- a commitment to an outstanding academic program, Pacific Academy has always been committed to the artistic development of students with an emphasis on the performing arts. Our school seeks to identify talent, expose students to all aspects of the arts and provide many authentic audiences for performances and celebrations of their talent.

10345 The Chandos Pattison Auditorium provides a wonderful venue for our musicals, theatre productions, vocal jazz, jazz ensembles, choir and band performances, and we believe that the new communications building will provide the same level of benefit to our current media program.

10346 At this time in the high school we are offering the following courses in video media production: We have an Introduction to Media that covers things such as lighting and audio composition, equipment and studio operation, the production process.

10347 We have a course in Video Arts and Media Technology that teaches digital enhancements, film analysis and history of film and TV, studio techniques, advertisements and music videos.

10348 We have a course in Film TV that covers areas such as voiceover, storyboarding, camera blocking, creating instructional videos, journalistic videos, three-act plays, creating dramatic scripts, creating a five-minute variety TV show, recording school sports events, et cetera.

10349 Part of the course requirements are that the students participate in video competitions. Mr. McDonald already mentioned the award that our school won last year, and this award recognized the students active involvement in promoting integration and tolerance among their peers.

10350 Our current facilities include the following: We have a media lab focusing on graphic design, 3-D animation and some audio editing. We also have four non-linear editing work stations and the lab is made up of 15 computers.

10351 We have quite a large video studio suitable for green screening. We have a video switcher to record sports events and an audio recording area and digital audio work station.

10352 The new communications building is going to allow us to create complete digital audio productions, including the use of fully effects -- 3-D graphics and special effects, as well as provide enhanced opportunities to broadcast audio and video on the Internet.

10353 Although the communications building is going to expand our offering to our own students, we are also very excited by the opportunity to partner with COOL-FM, as it means we will be able to access groups who would not normally be able to take programs of this type.

10354 Thank you.

10355 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

10356 Commissioner Demers.

10357 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Thank you.

10358 That is quite a curriculum for an elementary and secondary school, but how nice.

10359 What you have just described as courses, this is available to most of the students, all the students, or do all the students have to take these?

10360 MS FRANKLIN: It is an option available to all high school students.

10361 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Thank you.

10362 There was reference, I think, to the post-secondary. At the moment you do provide courses to post-secondary students?

10363 MR. McDONALD: We are instituting those courses now. We do have some after school and some summer training, but that is a program that we are instituting at the moment to expand it to this area and our new communications facility will enable us to do that.

10364 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Thank you.

10365 Maybe a last question but a more comprehensive one: Could you follow the thread of your course and what you expect and plan to do in the future in relation to the broadcasting system, in relation to what the broadcasting system would get from what you are planning?

10366 MR. McDONALD: We believe that the courses that we will be able to design and offer would provide assistance to the broadcasting system primarily in providing trained people who could enter into the broadcasting system. Those are in two areas, both in on-line broadcasting and off-air -- or on-air broadcasting and on-line broadcasting.

10367 We experience now a problem with our students who are graduating, where there are such limited spaces for them to be trained in the broadcast arts that we recognize this need. This is what is propelling us to go in this direction, as well as the recognition that education itself is becoming more and more on-line, so we are developing that in kind of a tandem direction.

10368 So we recognize the need for more people to be trained, and we recognize that we will have the capability to be able to do that, given our commitment to excellence in education in the other areas we have already seen what can be produced here. So we expect that our contribution to the system, the broadcasting system will be the training for people and also providing a facility that other people can use to produce things in as well.

10369 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Thank you.

10370 And your students, just so maybe I could understand more clearly, do they, for example, graduate to BCIT or university specialty --

10371 MR. McDONALD: A large percentage of our students go on to post-secondary education, a very large percentage of our students. And they are finding if they wish to go into the area of arts or the area of broadcasting, there are really limited spaces available for them.

10372 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Thank you very much.

10373 MR. McDONALD: Thank you very much.

10374 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Thank you, Madam Chair.

10375 THE CHAIRPERSON: I just have one question for you.

10376 MR. McDONALD: I'm sorry?

10377 THE CHAIRPERSON: What is the criteria for community groups -- maybe I could say non-school groups -- to access your facilities? I know you have said they are available to the community and whatnot.

10378 MR. McDONALD: Currently the one that is most often used is the auditorium, which has been used by, I think, 140 groups. I think in the three years that it has been open we have had 265,000 people in the auditorium from every conceivable group. We have had the Kosovo refugee support group, we have had country and western groups in in performance things, we have used it for our own musical productions. We did Cyrano de Bergerac last year, and we did Sound of Music, and so on. But community groups come in.

10379 There are some business groups that also need a large facility for their conferences, for their people that come in and use it.

10380 So the criterion is that if there is a need for it and it fits within our schedule so that it is available.

10381 The primary use of the auditorium was for the student body, so that if it is available there is a wide range of people who use it.

10382 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

10383 MR. McDONALD: Thank you.

10384 THE CHAIRPERSON: We will take our morning break.

10385 We will be back at quarter to 11:00.

--- Upon recessing at 1030 / Suspension à 1030

--- Upon resuming at 1045 / Reprise à 1045

10386 THE CHAIRPERSON: When you are ready, Madam Secretary.

10387 MS VOGEL: I am going to ask three intervenors to come forward. Again, each have their 10 minutes and the opportunity to be questioned.

10388 Albert Kwan, would you come forward, please; Figure IV Entertainment; Manpreet Sidhu -- I'm sorry, I am going to do four -- Chelsea Kiley. Would you come forward, please.

10389 THE CHAIRPERSON: Take a seat in the front.

--- Pause / Pause

10390 THE CHAIRPERSON: Shall we hear from Albert Kwan first.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

10391 MR. KWAN: Good morning.

10392 Madam Chair and Commissioners, my name is Albert Kwan. I am a supporter for Focus Entertainment THE BEAT 94.5.

10393 To better assist you in understanding the perspective of my intervention, I would like to tell you a little bit about myself.

10394 I was born in Hong Kong in 1975 and came to Canada with my parents in 1976. Having spent 24 of my 25 years of life in Canada, I consider myself a proud Canadian.

10395 Of my 24 years in Canada I have spent the past 12 most memorable and enjoyable years of my life as a listener and fan of urban music. With this, I consider being Canadian and a listener of urban music integral parts of my life, which is why I am here before you today to speak in favour of Focus Entertainment and their application to license THE BEAT 94.5 FM.

10396 There may be some points worth taking note of in my speech. Through examples I will attempt to provide you with insight on demographics, market demand and market trends, finishing with a summary of why I feel Focus Entertainment deserves this licence.

10397 Starting out as a paperboy in 1987 I have over 12 years of working experience, with six years experience as a taxpayer and three years experience as an entrepreneur.

10398 Currently a freelance marketing consultant, I also have been in financial services as well as been a retail computer entrepreneur in my recent past.

10399 Demographically speaking I fall into The Beat's target audience. Having been educated in culturally diverse east Vancouver, I am here to represent a spectrum of everyday people, mainstream young Canadians aged 20 to 35 of all ethnicities with varied educational and vocational backgrounds who share a common thread, their love for urban music.

10400 As well, I represent a more specific demographic, which I like to call the invisible majority -- majority by our obvious numbers and invisible because of the amount of representation we get in the media -- Asian Canadians aged 20 to 35 working one or more jobs with businesses on the side, hard-working and ambitious taxpayers who make up a significant part of the GVD and its economic pie. We are financial professionals, administrative assistants, Web designers, market professionals, computer programmers, network administrators, we are banquet servers, bank tellers, retail store owners, sales and customer service. You get the picture.

10401 We are students and we are the future of Canada who currently have no representation in the media. We are the invisible majority and we want a voice. We are Vancouver's mainstream and we would like to have mainstream representation and broadcasting.

10402 Upon news of Focus' application I contacted my various circles of friends and received only positive results, but that was expected. Common comments were to the effect of "It's about time" or "Oh, really. That would be sweet", meaning really good.

10403 Vancouver's urban culture, as I have known it, has changed a lot. In the late 1980s when rap was taboo, there was no airplay and no awards and therefore we couldn't record the songs off the radio. We paid for vinyl records and tapes at premium import prices at specialty stores, and drove down to Bellingham just to find new songs so that we could come home and enjoy it with our friends.

10404 In the 1990s, when compact discs became the most dominant musical format, mainstream record distributors began to carry more urban artists as media recognition grew. At that time, Vancouver nightclubs were already playing urban dance on a regular basis, and to this day continue to play it. Clubs that I frequent today play over 90 per cent urban content.

10405 As another source of urban music, I also tune to a station from Seattle called KUBE 93.3, which I can barely pick up under all the static. However frustrating it gets, I continue to tune in, and to this day it has been over eight years of static, and, if I had to, it would go eight more because I'm an urban fanatic.

10406 In 1994 I found a Vancouver-based program that played urban music. It was hard to track down at first because of its programming schedule, but that was when I first heard the name Maximus Clean. His programming has fed the urban community for over 10 years with shows such as Beats to the Rhyme and The Morning Drive-by.

10407 As of recent, the variety of urban entertainment in Vancouver has reached new highs, with the increased influence and accessibility of the Internet along with the available television programs such as The Source, Friday Night Videos, One World Music Beat and the revival of Soul Train and other radio programs like Planet Oj(ph) that play urban music, not to mention an increase in big name artists such as Jay-Z, Puff Daddy, Busta Rhymes and Snoop Dogg performing on stage to a sold-out GM Place.

10408 As an entrepreneur and marketing professional, it is my interest to notice trends. As we near the year 2001, where the trend is going digital, one would expect that vinyl LPs would have long gone the way of the do-do bird. The truth is, however, that disc jockeys who mix and spin vinyl records are on a rising trend. For those who don't know, mixing and spinning are integral parts of urban culture.

10409 Madam Chair and Commissioners, I have stated a case that would suggest success for an urban station, so would it matter who runs the show? Of course it does. Obviously that is the whole point of these hearings.

10410 As a young entrepreneur I can relate to Focus Entertainment, as they too are local independents who are passionate and full of energy. Like myself, they are the Davids facing up against the Goliaths of the broadcasting industry in Vancouver.

10411 What excites me is that with a licence they can provide accessibility as well as much needed competitive balance to the existing oligopoly in Vancouver's media.

10412 Also worth noting are their plans to develop local talent, bridge cultural divides and create employment. Ultimately, they will be reinvesting into the local economy rather than taking from it and distributing to shareholders far and wide.

10413 Focus Entertainment may not be the only group proposing an urban format for the 94.5 frequency, however, from my perspective, they have a creative, talented and committed group of men and women well-rooted in entertainment music and broadcast industries.

10414 The founding members of Focus Entertainment are representative of a new generation of broadcasters who have much to offer Canada's broadcasting system. In formulating The Beat they have put together the necessary fiscal and human resources and commissioned superb market research and have attracted to their team the most knowledgeable urban music professionals on either side of the border. The final missing element is a broadcast licence for 94.5 that will enable Focus Entertainment to fulfil the programming needs of Vancouver's urban community of listeners and the dreams of new and emerging local urban music talent.

10415 Please give Focus Entertainment and Vancouver its urban opportunity.

10416 Thank you.

10417 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Kwan.

10418 I think what we will do is, Commissioner Cram will question you now and then we will move on to the other intervenors.

10419 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you, Mr. Kwan.

10420 You were talking about mixing and spinning with vinyl. Is that what we, in our CRTC world, would call turntableism and radio art. Is that the kind of --

10421 MR. KWAN: That is correct.

10422 COMMISSIONER CRAM: That is also part of the urban format, the urban genre?

10423 MR. KWAN: Yes, very much so.

10424 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Is it?

10425 MR. KWAN: Yes. It is what they call part of the culture.

10426 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you.

10427 You were talking about the sources of your urban music right now, and you talked about KUBE and clubs, and then you talked about there is some radio. Maximus Clean has a program, but there are also others, are there?

10428 MR. KWAN: There is one other that just recently started. It's on the 96.1 and I think it's on like from midnight on to 3:00 in the morning. So, you know, if I need to sleep I'm going to sleep and I'm not going to get my urban music through that station.

10429 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Then you talked about the Internet. Are you one of these people who -- do you go to MPEG and Napster and listen to music there?

10430 MR. KWAN: I have been there.

10431 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yes.

--- Laughter / Rires

10432 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I don't want to ask any more incriminating questions, but, I mean, if -- because it seems to me that the urban format is large in terms of there is sort of the white going to grey going to black. There is a whole range of it.

10433 So I wonder, and I have a nephew who is 17 who lives on the Net and on Napster and everything else, but I ask myself if you have a better choice and better availability on the Internet, and so therefore if the radio formats sort of aren't exactly to your liking, that you will simply go back to the Internet and they would lose listenership because of that.

10434 MR. KWAN: That would not be true.

10435 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay. Can you tell me why?

10436 MR. KWAN: Because I spend the bulk of my day in my car, and until we have the technology where we can receive the Internet in the car, I would listen to the radio.

10437 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Kwan.

10438 Madam Chair.

10439 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

10440 We will now hear from Figure IV Entertainment.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

10441 MR. MALKO: Thank you.

10442 My name is Terry Malko, representing Figure IV Entertainment.

10443 I guess I will start off by saying that Figure IV is a Canadian company based in Vancouver and we have three artists signed to our label, all of which are Canadian artists. All these artists are signed to a major label.

10444 So our living is made off urban music. I guess the group that we have -- one of the groups is the Rascalz, who are a Vancouver-based group. They are the number one selling hip hop group in Canada. For the past two albums they have achieved gold status in Canada, which means 50,000 albums sold, which is fairly big.

10445 Just this past summer the single Top of the World went to number one on the MuchMusic countdown, making it the number one video in the country. They received two Juno Awards, nominated four times. Received two MuchMusic Awards. They have won a SOCAN award for the most played song for Northern Touch.

10446 This group has travelled all around the world, was in Africa recently, earlier this year, on peacekeeping mission. Throughout all of this success, this group still can't get played on the radio in this city.

10447 I guess the President of Figure IV, Dugai Barrington, he was requested to speak as an intervenor for Z95 when they were trying to get a licence. He now manages the Rascalz and, I mean, he still can't get the airplay.

10448 Z95 had first put urban music in their mandate originally when they were trying to get the licence and, I mean, they took it out after. But I mean they were granted a licence on the condition where they had urban music in there, so there must have been -- you all as an organization must have seen something in it to grant them that licence when they originally had urban music in.

10449 In terms of Vancouver, I think Vancouver does need the station. There is an urban market here. Urban music is the top selling music. Urban music is getting sales. People are buying the records.

10450 At this station we have been efficient with the growth and development talent in the music industry, in Vancouver and also across Canada. Like Albert was saying, all these hip hop tours are coming to Vancouver, like the Hard Knock Life Tour, the Dr. Dre Up in Smoke Tour. And these tours are hitting big venues in the U.S. like Los Angeles, New York, Chicago, Miami, et cetera. These tours are selling out GM Place.

10451 But, at the same time, there are also smaller shows that are selling out, smaller venues. And I'm saying this because I am at those shows and I see that there are kids there who are paying $20-$30 a ticket to be in cramped club where it's hot, smoky. And they are waiting for these artists to come on, and when these artists come on these kids go crazy.

10452 The urban station, really, I think it is a missing link. These shows are coming through the U.S., they are also coming here. These promoters, these artists must see something in Vancouver to be able to bring those shows here.

10453 I would also like to bring up that some kids don't have access to go to these shows because they are 16-17-year-olds. A lot of these shows, if they are in a club you have to be 19 years old. There is alcohol there.

10454 So these kids might know about these artists from the Internet, or they might watch the videos on TV, but they have nowhere to hear it on the radio.

10455 So say you are a 16-year-old kid, you could listen to this music on KUBE, a Seattle station, but this Canadian kid is hearing a U.S. view on this, he is hearing U.S. advertising, he is hearing U.S. news. I think there is a potential for that kid to get cut off from his local community if all he is listening to is a Seattle station.

10456 It all ties in with the urban lifestyle. Urban lifestyle isn't just music, it's books, movies, television, clothing. It is growing and it is spreading. You walk into a superstore, any type of clothing store, there is a good chance you will find urban clothing there mixed in with everything else.

10457 When people say urban lifestyle, I don't think it is just restricted to blacks. If you look at the composition of the people in this room today, there are a cross-section of different races and different cultures.

10458 MR. LEONARD: Hello everyone on the Board. I represent the Rascalz group that he was speaking of.

10459 As an artist, I have been here performing and composing music for basically the length of about 10 years and in that 10 years, as far as media for my music, it went from performing to hand-to-hand, mouth-to-mouth, ear-to-ear-type of advertising, to MuchMusic.

10460 MuchMusic has been the number one support for the past six or seven years for a group such as myself dealing with Rap City, Da Mix shows. If you have what it takes, the backing, the money to make a good video, then you will get the "A" rotation and be out there for a lot of people to see you.

10461 So as far as dealing with the media, radio has been the missing link for us. We have had these gold records, as my fellow partner has said, but that has all been through mouth-to-mouth, hand-to-hand performance, standing up in front of audiences, shaking hands, so on and so forth.

10462 If we go back a few years, in 1989 we had a group, a soul artist Maestro Fresh Wes. When he came out, he had his first album there and I believe there were 36 stations playing his album, his one single that did help drive that artist to having a platinum status in this country, which was 100,000-plus records sold.

10463 Since then he has had various releases, and from time, as the years have gone by, closer to where we are now in the year 2000, there are less and less radio stations putting out his music. So from that sales have decreased, advertisement for his name, for his music has decreased, and in the end, the end virtue of it all is that less money is made for the artist, less people get to hear him, less people know that he is out there still, even though he is still making his music, and so on and so forth.

10464 And I myself am there at the forefront today trying to get -- as we have the Junos, trying to get them to put some urban music and have the representation on. They heard us, they heard our voice after declining the award, and I believe had no choice but to have us perform the next year, due to the fact that Northern Touch -- although Top of the World is the most recent number one single that we have had, Northern Touch was also number one song in the country on MuchMusic, it was also a number one video play, still didn't get any radio play, basically saying that the radio stations were -- that the song didn't conform to the format that they had. Z95 didn't play it. 103 rarely played it.

10465 The other main station now, KISS 92, is heading the forefront in Toronto for a lot of these things and a lot of the music industry, a lot of the people with the labels are starting to see now that there is a voice and the people who are watching MuchMusic are listening to the radio and say "Well, hey, I can get this here" and finally "Let's look to this."

10466 I do believe that a lot of the people who are lobbying for this one 94.5 radio station should look to 92 over there in Toronto and see that there is an audience for it. People can tune in. People will tune in. They have people who will advertise, buy ad time, so on and so forth. So all these things can be covered by giving the radio station what it needs, and it needs an urban music format.

10467 It needs to have artists such as myself have their music played so that people who are looking to listen, the people who I want to voice my opinions to through my music, can tune in and hear what I have to say, and other artists like me.

10468 Because on the other side of the things, I am also someone who listens to the music. I mean, I listen to 105.7 CHUA, I believe. That is my second favourite radio station on the dial. But as far as music is concerned, I have to filter through all the static, as my man Albert to my left has said, to get the radio when I don't have a cassette, when I don't have a CD to play, when I do get bored of what I have.

10469 Because I am an artist I have never visited Napster, so I don't have the MP3 files to play on my computer through the system at my house.

10470 So with that, I mean, I am looking really forward to having this radio station from the heart and soul point of view and also from an artist's point of view.

10471 If you can confide in that and see my reasoning, you would understand that it is a double-edged sworn for me, I live by it and I die by it. So it is good for us, and the people that I voice my opinions to, to have that radio station.

10472 Thank you.

10473 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

10474 Commission Cram I believe has some questions.

10475 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you.

10476 I guess you were talking about Z95 having urban music in their mandate, Mr. Malko. We don't control genre. Radio stations can move from one to another to another whenever they wish, except for jazz, which is what we call specialty.

10477 So I guess I ask myself, if Z95 thought that there wasn't a demand, presumably, for urban music, what makes you believe that there now is a demand? I mean, they were a commercial operation, they got out of urban music because, I guess, they thought they couldn't make money on it.

10478 MR. MALKO: Well, I mean, the proof it the fact that they do play urban music and they play those songs to death. They play like Eminem, Jay-Z. They are still playing Nelly, right. I mean, they are playing urban music, but they are only playing what maybe I would call commercial urban music, music that gets predominantly played on the radio. There is a lot of urban music that doesn't get played on the radio and I think it should.

10479 MR. LEONARD: I do also believe, to add to that, that most of the music that they do play is State-side. I mean, there are a lot of artists such as myself, Choclair, Maestro Fresh Wes, these things that -- artists that need to be put forward to their own people, their own Canadian group of audience, so when there are the shows they will know that the shows are coming to their town, and so on and so forth.

10480 We did a show, as an example, in Hamilton, I believe it is, in Toronto, and the radio station that they had out there that was playing Top of the World. At that time it was killing the audience with the fact that we were coming to town, and it just so happened that that town there was the only town that was playing our music at the time on the commercial radio station, and that had the best turnout.

10481 So I believe that the power is in the radio station. And so in dealing with the urban format and such, if you were to have an urban radio station such as 94.5, it would allow artists such as myself, and advertisers to buy radio time, to back it, you know, to provide money for it and, in turn, just one hand washes the other and it just carries on forward.

10482 So I do believe that as far as changing formats is concerned, you can start out one way to get something, which I do believe Z95 did. They came forward saying that we were going to be urban and then switched later on to what they really wanted to do, to take out LG73, which I think was their top gold at that time.

10483 So having an urban station, I don't think 94.5 will change because -- as we look further on down the road -- because, I mean, all the other radio stations are covering all the other formats. Urban music has not covered heart and solely to this date so there is no reason for 94.5 to change, and I don't think it will change because they will have that audience for it.

10484 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So it is really an issue with Z95 of either they are growing old with their audience, aging with their audience or, alternatively, they are only playing what I would call the commercial American urban.

10485 MR. MALKO: Or, yes, they are waiting for the record to hit it big in the States and then they pick it up.

10486 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Not take a risk.

10487 MR. MALKO: They are not actually breaking records themselves which is, I think, what they should be doing.

10488 And especially, I mean, they are a Canadian company, are they not, and they should -- I mean, I think they should look at the Canadian talent that is in this country and why support American talent before Canadian. Shouldn't it be the other way around?

10489 MR. LEONARD: To add to that, I don't want to put the pressure on Z95 to change their format back. I mean, the real issue here is for us to get this 94.5 instead of to look as to who is not playing what and why, because that will just cause other people to change and then take away the life from the fact that we are here for 94.5.

10490 COMMISSIONER CRAM: One last question, Mr. Leonard.

10491 You were talking about KISS 92 in Toronto. How do I put it? Is it avant-garde urban --

10492 MR. LEONARD: No.

10493 COMMISSIONER CRAM: -- or is it the commercial Eminem kind of stuff that --

10494 MR. LEONARD: Yes. I think it is between what 94.5 should be, if we get that, and what Z95 is right now.

10495 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So it's half way?

10496 MR. LEONARD: It falls in between there. So if you look towards KISS 92 and see just the half that is playing the urban music, the Canadian artists such as myself, Choclair, Maestro Fresh Wes, Cardinal(ph), I mean the list goes on, but they are playing those artists. If you look to that then you can say "Well, Canadian artists, Canadian audiences and the Canadian radio is holding its own. They are all helping each other."

10497 And it is holding up to date and, I mean, we don't have to have it solely for Canadian. That is not the issue. The issue is just having a radio station itself to play the music for the audiences, and I do believe we will have that audience.

10498 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you. Thank you very much.

10499 MR. LEONARD: Thank you.

10500 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I wish you success.

10501 MR. LEONARD: Thank you.

10502 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Madam Chair.

10503 THE CHAIRPERSON: Our next intervenor is Manpreet Sidhu.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

10504 MS SIDHU: Thank you, Commissioner. You will have to forgive me, I am coming off a very bad cold.

10505 THE CHAIRPERSON: You are forgiven.

10506 MS SIDHU: Thank you.

10507 COMMISSIONER CRAM: just don't share.

10508 MS SIDHU: All right.

10509 Madam Chair and Commissioners, my name is Manpreet Sidhu and I am here to vocalize my support for Focus Entertainment's application for a radio station called THE BEAT 94.5 FM.

10510 The Beat is exactly the type of radio station a major urban centre like Vancouver needs. There is a void in the local entertainment scene for a station with a focus on urban music featuring rap, hip hop, reggae, motown, R&B and techno/dance. The Beat will fill this void by providing a full service urban music station.

10511 In the three years that I have lived here, I have seen the urban music scene grow and its growth has been significant. In the last two years alone urban music concerts have sold out venues as large as General Motors Place and the community itself has responded enthusiastically.

10512 But what I find most compelling about these events is the fact that their success relied greatly on the people of Vancouver. These shows were not heavily advertised or promoted. Instead, the community of Vancouver made these events a success through word-of-mouth, people talking to friends, co-workers, colleagues, et cetera, and the word spread faster and farther than any advertising would have been able to.

10513 With its spoken word and musical programming, The Beat will connect with Vancouver's multicultural community and provide the programming that is missing in mainstream radio.

10514 I, particularly, am looking forward to listening to an English-language station that will also feature bhangra music by some of my favourite artists.

10515 Currently, I can only do this by listening to Punjabi-language stations and the content of those programs is very exclusive in that listeners to the station have to speak Punjabi in order to understand and follow the programming. I am lucky in the sense that I can speak Punjabi, but many of my peers are not fluent in that language, yet they love the music and want to listen to it in a more mainstream format.

10516 This is something The Beat can do. And not only for Punjabi-speaking Vancouverites, but for people from any community in the Lower Mainland. I can see more English-speaking Punjabi people listening to this station because it is more in line with what they would like to hear on the radio and it is also something that they can listen to with friends who love the music even though they don't speak the language.

10517 I do believe that people will listen to something completely different. The Beat promises to make a difference in local radio. The programming they will feature is as vibrant, alive and as exciting as the city we live in. It will be as diverse as the city itself and it will appeal to a large part of the population.

10518 I know this because of my experiences in Vancouver. The local urban music scene has exploded in the last two years and I can see how completely it has been embraced from people all over Vancouver. You see them at the clubs and at the concerts and they are glad to be there, excited, thrilled at what the night is going to bring. And these people are of different ages, occupations and cultures and they are all there with one thing in common, a love for urban music.

10519 And it is a new and exciting type of music, something that is new to the broadcasting medium, but something that is embraced enthusiastically.

10520 A mainstream radio station like The Beat can reflect Vancouver's multiculturalism through its programming and make it easily accessible to everyone in the community.

10521 I am also here speaking as a member of the South Asian community, which is probably the largest underserved ethnic community in Vancouver. In sitting in the audience as an ethnic Canadian, I felt proud and encouraged by the broad cultural diversity reflected on the Focus Entertainment panel. They were the only applicants, in my view, that physically reflected the diversity of Vancouver.

10522 I am impressed by what appears to be the inclusive nature of Focus Entertainment in the sense that their Canadian talent initiatives are open to everyone. They are not concerned about the communities and where the people come from. They are looking for talent and not for colour.

10523 In sitting in the audience this week, I noticed that Focus Entertainment was the only group that came before you that truly reflected the cultural composition in Vancouver in the make-up of their panel, and this gave me hope that they will practice what they were preaching in their presentation.

10524 The Beat will serve my demographic very well. I am a single 20-something woman in Vancouver. I have a great interest in music and enjoy listening to the radio. I am young. I am active and I love living in this city. It has so much to offer the people who live here, except, of course, an urban music station. Aside from Toronto, there is no city like it, no city as culturally diverse or exciting or as alive as Vancouver.

10525 Madam Chair, as I understand the Focus Entertainment application, they would be serving my community every day through their music and spoken word programming. I will be able to hear my music as well as other urban music. I will be able to hear the news, the activities and the events of the South Asian community reflected daily by The Beat through their spoken word programming such as Culturally Speaking, as well as through their community correspondents and hourly newscasts.

10526 I am a broadcaster. I am involved in broadcasting in Vancouver and I can tell you that I will be pursuing Focus Entertainment to be one of the representatives to broadcast the news, activities and daily events of my community.

10527 I am excited over the prospect of my community having a daily voice on The Beat. I would be thrilled and excited in serving and interpreting my community's news and events. If this licence is granted, you can be assured that Focus Entertainment will be hearing from me.

10528 I have a strong journalism background and I have spent three years writing for community newspapers in Prince George. As a student of the University of Northern British Columbia, I started their student newspaper in my basement before we even had an office on campus, and I have also worked as a newscaster for CJCI Radio in Prince George.

10529 I have a strong passion and love for reporting local news and events and Focus Entertainment's emphasis is local. The Beat will be a place for local artists to display their talents, get the airplay, and get the recognition they deserve. In essence, this would be a radio station dedicated to the community it serves.

10530 Ethnic radio stations have not done much for my community. Second and third generation Canadians should be able to tune in and have some sort of reflection on the radio. Speaking as a young South Asian woman with a love of urban music, I would love the option to go mainstream, and Focus Entertainment can do this.

10531 Currently, urban music is virtually non-existent on any local radio stations, except, of course, the "Z". The small element that is available is not a big part of their programming and, as such, they do not include all the different aspects of the music. Urban music is very broad, spanning generations from motown to hip hop, including world beat, bhangra, rhythm and blues and many others. The Beat promises to play it all, and in a format that is easy for everyone to understand.

10532 In conclusion, Madam Chair, I would like to say that The Beat will not only give me the music that I love and hear, but that it will provide my community a voice on mainstream radio every day and give it the attention it needs and deserves. The South Asian community is very large, and yet The Beat is the only radio station that will reflect the South Asian community every day through its spoken word, news and cultural affairs programs.

10533 At the same time, they will be giving me an insight into the other communities of Vancouver. And all of this will be done with one common thread, a love of urban music.

10534 Chukria(ph). For the benefit of the court reporter, that means thank you.

10535 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Sidhu.

10536 Commissioner Cram.

10537 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you.

10538 Ms Sidhu, I too am 20-something --

--- Laughter / Rires

10539 COMMISSIONER CRAM: -- and nobody is going to know.

10540 Speaking about age, on page 2 of your presentation, at the bottom, you talked about people going to clubs and concerts and you said "And these people are of different ages". Can you give me the range of different ages?

10541 MS SIDHU: Well, in my experiences in attending concerts I have seen people who are freshly 19, right, first-time experience at the club, to people in their mid-20s, late 30s, early 40s. I have even taken a lot of my older co-workers to urban music concerts and they have had a blast.

10542 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So probably go as high as 40-something, as we say?

10543 MS SIDHU: I would go as high as late-40s, early 50s, yes.

10544 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you.

10545 Focus is proposing a huge range, in my mind, of music -- and you talked particularly about listening to bhangra -- but what if the mix was not to your satisfaction? What if it was 70 per cent motown or other genres that don't interest you as much as bhangra? Would you then go back to the Punjabi stations, or what do you think?

10546 MS SIDHU: Well, I don't really think that I would go back to the Punjabi stations that much, just because I find it very difficult to listen to them right now. A lot of their programming has to deal with prayer and news from India and things that just aren't locally relevant to my life in Vancouver.

10547 I was born in Canada. I speak Punjabi, but I also speak English, and most of my communication is in English. I live in a big urban city and events in smaller villages in India don't really concern my day-to-day activities. The Beat -- if I seem to be having some sort of a problem with the programming, which I doubt, I'm still positive that I will be tuning in for their local community events, the news and the reporting for the daily activities.

10548 COMMISSIONER CRAM: You say ethnic stations have -- what was the word -- failed your generation, I believe, or sort of they don't address you. That's at page 5:

"Ethnic radio stations have not done much for my community."

10549 So when you talk about "my community" you mean --

10550 MS SIDHU: In the sense I am talking about young urban professionals living in a city like Vancouver who want something a little bit more modern, right, a little bit more exciting and interesting to listen to, without having to deal with newscasts from other countries, having to tune out for the morning prayer and the evening prayer, which is also broadcast on the radio station. Not because, you know, it's not something that they want to be listening to or anything, it's just it doesn't seem to fit in with their lifestyle.

10551 As well, I am fortunate in the sense that as a second generation Canadian I can speak Punjabi, right, but I can't say the same for my younger brother or sisters. I can't say the same for my cousins.

10552 They love the music. We have weddings and we have parties and everybody gets on the dance floor and they dance like crazy, but some of peers and siblings have no idea what the music means, right, because they don't speak the language. I, on the other hand, decided to go out and learn how to speak it and read it and write it.

10553 So I think that it would be beneficial for people, other South Asians as well, who just haven't had the opportunity to learn Punjabi to be able to hear bhangra music as well as other Indian music in a more mainstream format.

10554 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you. Thank you very much for coming.

10555 MS SIDHU: Thank you.

10556 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Kwan, we have arranged the panels this way for the sake of saving time so, in fairness to everybody, it's not that I don't think you have something incredibly scintillating to add, but --

10557 MR. KWAN: I will be very short.

10558 THE CHAIRPERSON: No. You know, I think what we better do is just stick to our plan, otherwise when future panels come up we run into this problem.

10559 So I'm sorry, I apologize, but I hope you will forgive us.

10560 MR. KWAN: I just wanted to say (off microphone).

--- Laughter / Rires

10561 THE CHAIRPERSON: No, that was not on the record.

--- Laughter / Rires

10562 THE CHAIRPERSON: And Madam Secretary -- you have been a wonderful group.

10563 MS VOGEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

10564 There is a change in the order. I would like to call D. Cross and Federico's to come forward now.

10565 I understand that Ms Kiley has kindly agreed to come back after lunch.

10566 THE CHAIRPERSON: Madam Secretary, we appear to have somebody here at the panel we don't have on our list.

--- Pause / Pause

10567 MS KILEY: I have to be out of here in about 20 minutes.

10568 THE CHAIRPERSON: Why don't we move these ones off, bring up the two more and then we take the three before lunch. We will do that.

10569 MS VOGEL: At your pleasure, Madam Chair.

10570 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much for taking the time to come before us. I do appreciate it.

10571 Thank you.

10572 We will hear the other two and maybe we can do all these.

10573 Thank you.

--- Pause / Pause

10574 MS VOGEL: May I suggest that Ms Kiley go first?

10575 THE CHAIRPERSON: You can.

10576 What I would like to say is, we have half an hour. We have a conference call we have to do at noon. So there are three of you, 10 minutes each. We should be able to manage that.

10577 MS KILEY: Is it all right if I go ahead?

10578 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

10579 MS KILEY: Okay. I'm sorry, I have to work in like 20 minutes.

10580 THE CHAIRPERSON: That's fine. Not at all.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

10581 MS KILEY: Good morning, Madam Chair and Commissioners.

10582 I come to you today in support of Focus Entertainment and their proposal for 94.5 The Beat in Vancouver. I come before you representing the retail effect urban music has on the Lower Mainland and the surrounding areas, and also as a strong supporter and fan of urban music.

10583 So allow me to begin with the effect urban music has on the music retail industry in today's market.

10584 As an employee of HMV Canada, established in 1925 and one of the most successful music retailers in the world, I witness the most important element in the music industry, compact disc sales.

10585 If I could take the five of you, Madam Chair and Commissioners, by the hand and lead you to any one of the music stores within our city and visually describe and show you the effect urban music has on retail sales as a whole, here are some of the observations we would find.

10586 Upon first walking in, new releases are showcased every week in the very front of the store, in which half of them are guaranteed to belong to either hip hop, R&B, reggae or various urban compilations. Throughout the rest of the floor, urban music takes up at least 65 per cent of virtually any music store.

10587 Of course, there are other displays with the latest of pop and rock, these artists which, of course, get mainstream radio play, but it is the urban displays that are usually empty, literally flying off the shelves because of such high demand, yet little, if nothing, in the ways of airplay.

10588 It strikes one as odd that within a city filled with a majority of pop and rock stations urban music looks to be the dominant in music genre. The general make-up of music stores throughout the Lower Mainland definitely does not match the music played on popular radio stations within our city.

10589 Usually, within music stores, charts will be set up stating the top 30 sellers of the week, and it is a given that urban dominates at least half of that particular chart. In some cases, larger stores are equipped with a chart stating not only the top 30 popular sellers but the top 30 urban sellers as well, which range from hard core hip hop to reggae to R&B.

10590 It makes me proud and encouraged to know that many music stores, HMV in particular, has clearly recognized urban music and the urban scene for what it is, a rapidly growing music and lifestyle which, behind pop music, also grosses the highest in sales.

10591 Which will lead me to one more piece of concrete evidence that should really strike anyone not convinced that the urban music scene within retail is exploding.

10592 Within most HMVs in the region, aside from the rock and pop section, the rap and soul dance section combined makes up for the second largest in the store, excluding the underground section which also carries an overabundance of so-called obscure hip hop.

10593 So really, if you piece all of these sections together you have eight to 10 sections solely dedicated to rap, soul, dance, R&B and house music, whereas the jazz, adult contemporary and classical consist of usually only a few sections. Folk, blues and world have only one section.

10594 The whole wall consisting of urban titles also displays many of the new artists and best sellers. It can range from the second instalment of the Lyricist Lounge Series to Barry White's Greatest Hits.

10595 Once again, Madam Chair and Commissioners, if you are still with me on this look around the store, you will realize how important visuals are. At every turn urban music is ever present, whether it is number one on the charts, crowding the new releases or overshadowing all the other music genres with its size and visual takeover of virtually any given music store.

10596 So many people are infatuated with urban music nowadays because it is always new and fresh. There is always new collaborations with different artists, fresh concepts, elements of different sounds, many a time infused with elements of jazz or world music. People now are wanting more than commercial pop and rock music. They are looking above and beyond and what they are looking at is urban music in a big way.

10597 I see it being recognized every day from adolescents to teenagers, young adults and adults in their midlife looking for the likes of Dr. Dre or inquiring when the new Snoop Dogg is out, buying Al Green's Greatest Hits or discovering new acts such as Lucy Pearl.

10598 The majority of these artists I have just mentioned have been making music for well over 10 years, but never been in such high demand until recent years.

10599 Customers usually say that they have heard the music through nightclubs or on the Internet or maybe saw the video on MuchMusic. Rarely are they buying urban titles because it is played on the radio, because most times it usually isn't. And if it is, it is narrowed down to only a mediocre handful of artists in a comparison to the mass or rock and roll and pop titles that don't sell such a large quantity but is larger in range because of such heavy rotation on MuchMusic or Z95.

10600 With the outlets I have mentioned before, these are the only places that people can hear urban music, which is misrepresented as a whole anyway because Much and Z can only cater to top 40 listeners.

10601 But you would be amazed at the diversity that is within our community. I have seen people that you would never believe listen to hip hop breaking all stereotypes of your typical listener and fan. I see moms, dads and everyone in between, different colours, languages, ethnicities, all different walks of life take to this music like no other.

10602 Yet, on the other hand, it is a shame that these same people who are picking up these titles are depriving themselves of hearing even more creative, high quality artists that dwell among us, not hearing them only because, unfortunately, the general public only tends to appreciate what is played on the local radio stations and these particular stations don't even begin to represent properly the whole urban music scene itself.

10603 A song here or there does not satisfy a regular urban fan and, in my eyes, what they really are doing is disrespecting this music form and making it pop.

10604 One must distinguish between pop and urban music, and with a proper urban station in Vancouver people will not be -- without a proper urban station in Vancouver -- excuse me -- people will not be able to understand that or ever open their minds up to other artists, artists that will stay virtually unheard of if The Beat does not come to Vancouver.

10605 Younger people will not be able to appreciate where hip hop came from. Fans of new age R&B will never get to know who the real kings and queens of soul were.

10606 It is not just music that 94.5 The Beat will bring to the table, but valuable knowledge and education, hopefully teaching all the fans of urban music, new and old, that this is not pop music but an art form with a long and intricate history.

10607 Which brings me back to my earlier point, which is the disappointment and almost sadness I feel when people think all that is out there for music is the mainstream artists with huge labels behind them.

10608 There are so many untapped resources within this music that it is really a pity to see artists who write, produce and perform their own material not sell one single CD. How can one like an artist that they have never even heard of?

10609 Madam Chair and Commissioners, I hope you are still with me on my visual journey to your local music store in Vancouver, because here lay a lot of the secrets as to how the urban scene is striving and flourishing without a central base which, of course, in a perfect world, would be The Beat.

10610 You see, we have looked at the enormous impact CDs alone have on the general public, but what about the concerts and other special events? How do people find out when their favourite artist is coming to town?

10611 Within music stores there is always an influx of flyers promoting new artists, different club events and, of course, concerts. The mass majority of these flyers are promoting -- you guessed it -- urban music. Unfortunately, these flyers get pushed to the side because it really is not the responsibility of the retailer to hand out or even promote these particular events. More than often it is all based upon word-of-mouth advertising.

10612 Also unfortunate is the independent artists who really have no way of promoting their music except through flyers, which get pushed aside to make room for artists with larger labels backing them. The lack of enormous promotions still hasn't stopped acts such as Dell(ph) and Blackalicious to sell out large club venues back-to-back. It also hasn't stopped General Motors Place to sell out to capacity within six hours.

10613 Take, for example, the Up In Smoke Tour which featured heavy hitters such as Dr. Dre, Eminem and Snoop Dogg was advertised all over Z95.3, only because it was such a big tour and to go ignored by any radio station would be a foolish move on their part.

10614 The following for international artists is most definitely here, yet still local independent artists can't get any promotion or radio play anywhere in their own city.

10615 Upon the final and most disturbing, in my opinion, observation when looking around any music store would be lack of local talent. If you look at all these prospering urban acts, none of them being displayed are Canadian and, if they are, they are not selling nearly as many units as they should be.

10616 There is a gross under representation of Canadian urban artists within the music industry as a whole. Just as you have hopefully seen my visuals of the overabundance in urban artists, concerts and prospering of urban acts, these are all American artists who are thriving in the Canadian market because we really having nothing to call our own, for it is just not being heard.

10617 Sadly enough, Canadian artists have really gotten the short end of the deal. Imagine the art you practice is getting recognized by your whole, entire country, yet because of the lack of radio play and promotion we are looking to our American neighbours for fulfilment, yet the talent has been and still is being breeded in our own backyard, forever going unnoticed.

10618 In the past year and-a-half that I have been at HMV I have seen only two Canadian acts really push units. Otherwise Canadian urban acts are going unnoticed. I am not talking virtually unnoticed, I mean that they might as well not even put out a CD because no one is hearing it. No one is buying it. There has been an abundance of east coast Canadian hip hop titles that have been shipped to our store, only to be sent right back to the supplier because it is not selling. Zero sales. Zero sales literally.

10619 Ironically, there have also been a number of west coast Canadian titles we have carried, but they suffer the same fate that every other Canadian urban act does: No airplay means no one is listening, which means no one is buying. It is not because this is bad music. The reason is cut and dry, pointblank: No airplay.

10620 It is disheartening to any Canadian, whether you like urban music or not, to see Shania Twain, Brian Adams and Celine Dion selling millions when there are literally hundreds of other talented urban acts, Canadian acts, trying to break through in the virtually impossible urban scene. And out of these only two artists have really put a dent in the Canadian music market, albeit a small dent, but a dent nonetheless. They receive little radio airplay, but large rotation on Much Music. If you promote it right, they will come, and I have seen it firsthand.

10621 The sad reality is that there is so much raw talent in Canada. I could name off 10 amazing Canadian acts, but it will probably mean nothing just because they are virtually unknown to their own fellow Canadians. They are suffering because of lack of local support.

10622 How can we expect our Canadian artists to succeed when they do not even have a fan base within their own city, let alone their own country? It really is a shame to me, as a music salesperson, as a fan of hip hop, and mostly as a Canadian, to see such a minute number of Canadian acts really succeeding and to see such a wealth of talent going completely unnoticed.

10623 Even in outlets such as Urban Canadian Magazine, like I have here, I mean on the cover is an American artist, R. Kelly -- and these are free handed out. These are the two only publications that I have come across that are -- they are out of Toronto so they are Canadian, but when you look at what America has, they have five -- four or five different urban magazines and they are all national publications.

10624 So you can just see the effect that America has on Canadian hip hop because we really don't have Canadian hip hop.

10625 So seeing this, the explosion of urban music, not only from a retail perspective but as someone who is involved in the community as well, it is tough to watch some of these artists really suffer. This is their livelihood. They want to make a career out of this thing called music.

10626 I know for a fact that many west coast artists will flock to Toronto if The Beat doesn't go through, for radio will essentially make or break an artist and without one in Vancouver, realistically, no other station is going to play local urban acts.

10627 MS VOGEL: Ms Kiley --

10628 MS KILEY: Yes. Is my 10 minutes --

10629 MS VOGEL: -- we are well past the 10 minutes.f

10630 MS KILEY: Oh, I'm sorry.

10631 MS VOGEL: Could you wrap up, please.

10632 MS KILEY: Yes, I'm almost done.

10633 For radio will essentially make or break an artist.

10634 With the format that Focus has proposed every angle of the missing link is covered, the range from reggae to motown to R&B, house and soca and so many other different wonderful programs, the age range, which makes sense because urban music really does touch all ages, and the team of professionals working alongside of Focus to help bring The Beat to Vancouver and finally do urban music the justice it well deserves.

10635 Thank you.

10636 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Kiley.

10637 Commissioner Cram.

10638 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you.

10639 Ms Kiley, on the one hand I hear you saying that Canadian artists aren't successful because they have no airplay, and then, on the other hand, I hear you saying that urban music is second only behind pop --

10640 MS KILEY: Right.

10641 COMMISSIONER CRAM: -- in your store. So is it the American -- if I can call them the American successes like Eminem that are making the big money?

10642 MS KILEY: Definitely. Definitely.

10643 Like I said, I could name off the top of my head 10 different American artists that sell, sell, sell, sell, sell. They just -- units fly off the shelves, only because they are all -- they get some radio airplay up here or they get rotation on MuchMusic or if you listen to KUBE the particular titles are always being pushed at you.

10644 So, I mean, if you listen to urban music you know what the top American acts are, but some people don't even know the top maybe three or four Canadian acts just because you have to like -- you have to put your ear to the ground, you have to listen. You know, it is not just going to come because the radio doesn't play the Canadian acts, it is just something you have to find out by yourself.

10645 A lot of people caught onto the talent that we have. Like I said, the two titles that did push units, but otherwise it is virtually nothing, no Canadian acts do not push units whatsoever.

10646 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you. Thank you very much.

10647 MS KILEY: Yes.

10648 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Madam Chair.

10649 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

10650 Now, I don't know how you two want to handle this. You have a short presentation, that's fine, because otherwise we could have one of you after lunch.

10651 Okay, go.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

10652 MR. FUOCO: Good morning, Madam Chair and Commissioners. My name is Federico Fuoco and I am the owner of a dine and dance restaurant here in Vancouver called Federico's Supper Club.

10653 It is my pleasure to be here this morning in support of Focus Entertainment's application for an urban radio station. I believe it is long overdue.

10654 As I listen to the radio stations here I realize that they sound the same. They have stations doing strictly talk or others playing soft favourites. To my knowledge, there are no stations that play what Focus Entertainment is proposing, and that is urban music.

10655 From what I understand, urban music encompasses hip hop, reggae, rhythm and blues, motown, world beat and soul music. My first thought is that this format would appeal to a wide spectrum of ages, a broad demographic, hence no generation gap.

10656 For me, as a businessman who advertises his business, this last point is crucial. It would open up an incredible opportunity to advertise my restaurant, and it goes hand-in-hand with dine and dance concept.

10657 But, more importantly, as a music lover and musician, Focus Entertainment's playlist I'm sure would be one that would be enjoyed by all, no matter what age, or culture for that matter. Let's face it, music transcends all boundaries.

10658 When I think of where to advertise, I want to reach as many diverse people and age groups as possible. Focus Entertainment's station will no doubt address this.

10659 The second salient point is that this proposed station would be an incredible avenue for local talent to display their creativity. There is a vacuum in the Lower Mainland when it comes to local composers getting their music heard and recognized. They either have to move to Toronto or the U.S. to get airplay and be discovered. Focus Entertainment's station would solve this unfortunate circumstance by providing a voice and a vehicle for local urban composers and musicians to express their raw talent. The possibilities are incredible.

10660 At this time I would like to give you a case in point.

10661 There is a young gentleman by the name of David who lives here in Burnaby. He is a nice kid but suffers from a mild case of attention deficit syndrome. His parents told me that they get discouraged with him because he can't seem to focus on anything for too long, except for music. That is the only thing that he can truly focus on and it gives the parents hope.

10662 They asked me if I could go over to their house and assess if he has any talent or not. Out of respect for them I went, and boy, was I surprised. This young gentleman had an impressive little studio in his basement composed of keyboards, drum machines and effects machines. He let me hear his composition and I was literally blown away. Without exaggerating, the boy is at a level of genius, an amazing talent.

10663 The only sad thing, and the frustration that he expressed to me, is that in the Lower Mainland there is no existing radio station that would play his hip-hop style of music.

10664 He asked me if I had any contacts in Los Angeles. I wish that I could have told him at the time that he didn't need any contacts in LA, that he could get in touch with the people at Focus Entertainment and that they would be more than happy to interview him and expose his talent on the radio station.

10665 This station would be an invaluable medium for the thousands of creative people in our community. I am positive that this station would also showcase the many talents of our multicultural communities.

10666 Having been involved with many functions at the Italian Cultural Centre, and with the Chinese community as well, I have been fortunate to have seen aspiring musicians wanting to expose their roots through music. This station will be a great forum for them and will be instrumental in investing in our youth.

10667 I can already feel the excitement that this station will generate.

10668 Because time is short, I have a lot more to say, but let me finish with this: I know the principal directors of Focus Entertainment, the Rota family. I have known them for a long time. I have watched one of them grow up through school and high school. They are by far the most decent, honest and just great people that I have had the pleasure of every knowing, and I am just here this morning vouching for them because I know how hard they will work for this community and for the people of Vancouver. I am just honoured to be here speaking for them.

10669 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

10670 Commissioner Cram.

10671 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I am not going to attempt to pronounce your last name unless you tell me how I --

10672 MR. FUOCO: Pretend you are in Rome and say Fuoco.

--- Laughter / Rires

10673 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Mr. Fuoco.

10674 You talked about the format appealing to a broad range of ages and you said "no generation gap". What is the range?

10675 MR. FUOCO: I believe it will be like anything from young adults to -- well, I'm considering myself a young adult -- yes, 18, plus GST.

--- Laughter / Rires

10676 MR. FUOCO: -- through, I think, at least people in their 60s.

10677 In my restaurant I play a lot of this music myself -- I am the musician at my restaurant -- and even at my restaurant there is no generation gap. I have people coming in their 60s dancing to motown. I do a motown medley at the restaurant, and I do some reggae, I do things of that nature, and I can see what music does, how it speaks to people and how people enjoy it, and that is why I think this station is important to have.

10678 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Why do you think, given your belief that the genre is very popular, why do you think that there hasn't been a station thus far?

10679 MR. FUOCO: You know what, that is a good question. I don't know.

10680 But I just think that when I speak of the Rota family I can see their vision. You know, it's like me when I tapped into this dine and dance concept, people said "How come no one has done this before?" I don't know, but I see there is a need for it.

10681 And I think they grabbed onto that vision and are going with it. They can see how popular it is and would be.

10682 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you. Thank you for your time, Mr. Fuoco.

10683 MR. FUOCO: Bravo! And I expect you --

--- Laughter / Rires

10684 MR. FUOCO: And I expect you in my restaurant.

10685 Gracias. Thank you.

10686 I have to leave. Thank you very much.

10687 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much for taking the time to be with us, both you and Ms Kiley.

10688 Thank you.

10689 MR. FUOCO: Thank you very much.

10690 THE CHAIRPERSON: Ms Cross.

10691 Take the time you need. I don't want to rush you.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

10692 MS CROSS: Yes. My name is Delores Cross and I have been in the business community for the last 16 years.

10693 One of the people there in The Beat group is Maximus Clean. Now, I have know Maximus Clean for the last 11 years to be very upright, very honest, being upfront, and he would not get himself into a station that is not commendable or that does not have high esteem.

10694 Now, being in business for so many years, I have had the privilege of meeting many artists from the States, from the Toronto area, and here in Vancouver. The young people in Vancouver who are trying their utmost best to get into the music industry have a very hard time. I have had several young people coming to my store and asking can I give their record or can I give their CD to artists that come in. I have had loads of them, stocks of them at different places. And, yes, I have given to Americans and I have given to Canadians who will promote them.

10695 Now, in my business basically advertising is a major point. Having some of the radio stations around, it costs an arm and a leg, as you all know, and also, not only that, you have to have a contract.

10696 Now, after speaking to the group of The Beat, they informed me that advertising would not cost so much as the other stations. It would be cost-effective, in other words, for me.

10697 I jumped at the idea because I know that once Maximus Clean tells me something it is, I would say gospel -- yes, I would use the word "gospel".

10698 At their station I ask a different focus that will be taking place on their radio station and they informed me -- which I am very pleased.

10699 I have five boys who go to the clubs and who have records and music and everything else, and they are fed up of the stations here that is not really feeding them the music that they really like, so they tune into other stations and buy all their records, and so on.

10700 I, for one, just listen to the radio basically, because I don't have the time to go to clubs, and so on. I don't go to clubs.

10701 As an individual, I feel that this station should be in Vancouver. We are having so many different cross-cultural people moving from Toronto coming to Vancouver. And the question earlier "Why is it now that they are having this station?" I think the timing is right due to the fact that we have so many people moving from the Toronto area, from Montreal, from the States, from Edmonton, Alberta coming to Vancouver, and I believe that the timing is right now for them to have this radio station.

10702 I know that although I'm not too up on the different beats and music and everything else, but the young man who was sitting up here talking about his music, he had a very hard time promoting his music until he went to Toronto. It is people like those that cause me to be here this morning, by asking you all to consider giving the licence to these people because they have integrity, as far as I am concerned, and honesty.

10703 I thank you.

10704 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Cross.

10705 Commissioner Cram has a question.

10706 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you, Ms Cross.

10707 Earlier today we heard about 270 businesses or head offices leaving the province and now you are telling me people are moving from other parts of Canada.

10708 MS CROSS: Yes.

10709 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Why do you say that?

10710 MS CROSS: Because when I first came to Vancouver back in 1964 I had to basically walk around seven miles before I found the first African-American person like myself, and now I walk down the street and every second one I find one.

10711 The Chinese community, it was not as prevalent as it is now, especially with our young people coming in.

10712 COMMISSIONER CRAM: They are actually moving from other parts of Canada. Is it because of the weather?

10713 MS CROSS: I don't --

10714 COMMISSIONER CRAM: It can't be the taxation, can it?

--- Laughter / Rires

10715 MS CROSS: We have a beautiful province, regardless of our weather. We have a beautiful province and people move here because it is more diverse. It is a multicultural community. Although we have rain, but the weather is great.

10716 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Listen, it's a lot better than Saskatchewan.

10717 MS CROSS: Exactly.

10718 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you very, very much.

10719 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Ms Cross.

10720 MS CROSS: Thank you.

10721 THE CHAIRPERSON: I appreciate that you have taken the time to come and speak to us today.

10722 MS CROSS: Thank you.

10723 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

10724 MS CROSS: Goodbye.

10725 THE CHAIRPERSON: We will break for lunch and be back at 1:15.

--- Upon recessing at 1158 / Suspension à 1158

--- Upon resuming at 1315 / Reprise à 1315

10726 THE CHAIRPERSON: Are we ready?

10727 MS VOGEL: Our first intervenor this afternoon is David Broatch.

10728 I invite him to come forward.

10729 THE CHAIRPERSON: Whenever you are ready.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

10730 MR. BROATCH: Okay.

10731 Madam Chair and Commissioners, I would like to take this opportunity to speak to you in favour of Focus Entertainment's licence application for an urban format radio station in the greater Vancouver region.

10732 Before I do so, I had better introduce myself.

10733 My name is David Broatch and I have been involved in the local urban music scene as a successful and influential club DJ and promoter for about 25 years.

10734 I have started more successful urban club nights than any other DJ in Vancouver history and am well-respected throughout the Pacific Northwest through my long-standing affiliation with the Northwest Dance Music Association, which recognized me for my contributions to the regional urban music scene with an award in 1997.

10735 I was also recognized as one of the 200 most influential DJs in North America by the Street Information Network, based in New York, in 1994.

10736 If you are at all familiar with the urban music scene as it has developed over the decades in Vancouver, you might remember me as the DJ who broke all the big hip hop and R&B club hits at such fabled nightspots as Sugar Daddy's, Pharaoh's, Clementine's, Sneaky Pete's, The Polo Club, Xenon, The Candy Store, Fast Eddie's, Casablanca's, Panache and Level 5.

10737 In more recent years I have been either involved in or the guiding force behind such extremely successful urban club nights as Funky Friday's at Madison's, Uptown Saturday Night's at Marrs and Good Times at the Palladium.

10738 My most famous tenure was for almost 10 years at the Warehouse Club, which is generally recognized as the most important urban music venue in the history of the city, and I currently enjoy a residence on Friday nights at Flavour at Richard's on Richards, which has been the biggest urban club night in the Vancouver area for the last three years.

10739 I also DJ Platinum Saturdays at the Purple Onion and Flight Sundays at Wett Barr and appear regularly as a guest DJ at other venues throughout the area.

10740 I have opened for Digital Underground, and The 2Live Crew, played private parties with luminaries like Mixmaster Mike and appeared live with the legendary Grandmaster Flash.

10741 My time at the Warehouse Club was probably the most personally satisfying for me, as these were the years when the urban music scene began finally to move into the mainstream and the Warehouse was recognized all over the world as the place to go in Vancouver to hear urban music.

10742 Consequently, I got to meet and play live for a lot of famous people, including some great urban artists like Kool and The Gang; Earth, Wind and Fire; The Jacksons; Lakeside; Heavy D and The Boys; Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis; MC Hammer; Whodini; Lisa Lisa; Alexander O'Neal; Aliyah; Ginuwine; Snoop Dogg; and Prince, to name but a few.

10743 I am boring you with my credentials for just one reason, so that you will understand that when it comes to the urban music scene in Vancouver, I know what I am talking about, and this gives me a unique and valuable insight into the topic of today's discussion, the current application before you from Focus Entertainment for an urban radio licence on the FM dial.

10744 As I see it, there are two main questions for you to consider:

10745 First, is an urban station the best possible use of this licence in this market at this time?

10746 If so, then second, among the applicants before you are the people from Focus Entertainment, the best group to award this licence to?

10747 Okay, let's talk about the first question: Is Vancouver ready to support an urban station and will an urban station meet the needs of the people who are reached by its signal?

10748 Well, in a word, yes. If you only read what the middle-aged white guys who critique music in the local media say, and you only listen to what the middle-aged white guys who run local radio allow you to, you might not understand what just walking through the mall and looking around or going to almost any nightclub in the region on any given evening will reveal, that there aren't just white people in Vancouver any more, and that the music of choice of most of the region's ethnic groups is urban.

10749 It is an inescapable fact there are large ethnic groups in the Lower Mainland who do not feel served by the current mix on local radio and who identify most strongly with the urban music format.

10750 If you accept that in a city the nightclub scene represents a fair microcosm of the listening public with certain age perimeters, then a trip to almost any nightclub in greater Vancouver will tell you the following: A clear majority of patrons prefer urban music.

10751 Okay, so a lot of people will be happy with a new urban station, happy to finally be given a chance to listen to something other than classic rock, alternative rock, new rock, country rock, dinosaur rock or the ever popular all Celine Dion almost all the damn time formats that have been the only offerings on our local dial for so long.

10752 Thus, an urban station will fulfil at least one of its major mandates: It will serve the needs of a very large segment of the region's population who are not now being addressed.

10753 This will lead inevitably to the urban station fulfilling another mandate, the most important one really: It will be successful.

10754 Unlike, say, a soft jazz format station, which would almost inevitably either flounder quickly or languish interminably, an urban station would quickly and easily establish a large audience and be commercially viable, creating lots of employment opportunities and enlivening the local concert and club scenes in the process.

10755 And what will happen if you don't award an urban licence at this time?

10756 Well, as you must know if you watch TV or attend sporting events or even just walk down the street, urban music is everywhere, and as a ubiquitous art form there is money to be made in big heaps from it. Lots and lots and lots of money which could be made by local artists and funnelled back into the community, much as the rock artists like BTO and Brian Adams and Sarah McLachlan have done in the past. Or at least, this is what will occur in Toronto, where an urban licence has been granted.

10757 If Toronto has an urban station, committed to playing new Canadian artists and developing a star system for urban artists in this country, where do you suppose all the urban artists in Canada will go? We will be left with Brian and Sarah, and we will all continue to whine about living in Toronto's shadow and not being a world-class city.

10758 Meanwhile, I will continue to listen to KUBE 93 in Seattle, as will almost every person I know.

10759 I just honestly don't see how there can be any doubt that (a) an urban station would benefit the region on many important levels, as I have already discussed, and that (b) an urban station would be successful in this market, more commercially viable than any of the other applicants for the licence, and would thus benefit the region for years to come by generating employment, enlivening the entertainment scene, and creating and nurturing Canadian talent.

10760 The other non-urban format licence applicants you are considering, as far as I can tell, would either plug along marginally in this market with low ratings, or eventually end up changing formats to avoid bankruptcy, probably giving us yet another rock station in the process. If this is allowed to happen, I cannot help but feel that this Commission will have failed in its duty to the people of the region and more and more Vancouverites will turn to the American airwaves for the music they love and should be able to access in their own country.

10761 So if we agree, then, that granting an urban licence is the best way to go here, that brings us to the second question: What makes Focus Entertainment the most deserving applicant before you today?

10762 I am convinced that Focus Entertainment is the best candidate for the new licence because, basically, they know what they are talking about. They are prepared to hire the right people to make an urban station not only successful but a credit to our city and they will not sell out.

10763 I know that I would not work for a station that obtained an urban licence and then disappointed their eager public by playing the same lame crap that, say, Z95 foists on its listeners, and I have been personally assured by the principals of the Focus management team that they themselves would resign rather than do so.

10764 Since I have been acquainted with key numbers of the Focus team for over a decade and know them to be honourable people motivated first by a love of urban music, I believe what they have told me and what they are telling you.

10765 Included in prominent positions on the Focus management team are people who have been broadcasting to this city for years on Community Access Radio for free, motivated only by their love of urban music. These are the people I trust to bring commercial urban radio to my city, because, like myself, they are in the game for love of the music, not because they see the way the scene is changing and are eager to jump on the bandwagon and cash merrily in. This is not to say that Focus Entertainment does not have excellent beancounters involved in this initiative as well, just that music policy will be decided by people who care about music, which is how it should be.

10766 Just the fact that Focus Entertainment took the time to enlist my help with their application speaks volumes. The other applicants never even contacted me. Nor have I heard anything from them in the clubs or amongst other DJs or promoters in the urban club scene. They appear to be relying on their association with a long-time rock radio personality and journalist to establish their credibility and, to me, this just epitomizes the attitude in local radio that has existed in the region to date and that your selection of Focus Entertainment would do much to dispel.

10767 In conclusion, Madam Chair and Commissioners, I would like to say that an urban FM station is long overdue in this market and that by granting it you will be telling all the people of Vancouver that their concerns matter.

10768 Such a new station would reach a very large segment of the region's population which is unserved by the radio stations currently broadcasting in the market.

10769 The station would enhance Vancouver's reputation as a world-class city and bring huge benefits to the urban artists within the country as a whole.

10770 The station would re-energize the entertainment and nightlife scene in western Canada and stop people from having to tune in to U.S. stations for the music they have a right to hear.

10771 If we address the bottom line, an urban station would be the most commercially viable and thus almost certainly by far the most successful use of this licence of the options before you for consideration.

10772 Finally, it is my strong opinion that if you do grant an urban licence in this market, and you should, you should do so to the applicant who is most deserving of it, for to people like myself and all my fans and customers over the years, it is a trust, to be taken very seriously indeed and not simply to be milked for the financial gain such a licence can generate.

10773 I think that the group from Focus Entertainment have shown by their past deeds that they are to be trusted with this worthy enterprise and that they should in fact be your choice. I urge you to grant their application for an urban FM radio licence, and I look forward, as I hope we all do, to the day 94.5 FM The Beat goes on the air.

10774 Thank you.

10775 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Broatch.

10776 Commissioner Demers.

10777 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Thank you, Madam Chair.

10778 Mr. Broatch, I interpret what you have said today as being kind of the statement that was and is supporting your letter that you have provided the Commission, an e-mail that you sent.

10779 You are familiar with your e-mail?

10780 MR. BROATCH: Yes

10781 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Okay. In that e-mail you said that the most dominant form of popular music in the clubs and on the streets today is urban music. I understand that you have substantiated that by your statement today. Maybe it is in the same way that you have said that it was ridiculous that today we would not have an urban station in Vancouver. That is part of --

10782 MR. BROATCH: That is part of what I said, yes.

10783 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Part of what you said.

10784 You later on in your written intervention said that granting a French-language station, given the current ethnic background of the population of Vancouver, would be stupid. Could you --

10785 MR. BROATCH: I said granting another French station would be stupid.

10786 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Yes. Could you substantiate that or explain what you mean by that?

10787 MR. BROATCH: Well, I think, as the market research has clearly pointed out, urban music is the music of choice for most of the large ethnic groups in the Lower Mainland. It is the music that -- the format they feel best served by.

10788 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Okay. In another part you indicate that -- I understand you know the group that is making the application. You know most of the people there?

10789 MR. BROATCH: I know most of them, yes.

10790 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: You indicate that no one -- you are referring at one point in your written submission, and indirectly today, to the fact that they would not want to change the format of their station. You expressed that by saying that:

"No one from this group will be opportunistically switching formats to elevator music at any time in the future, as they actually care about the music they plan to present." (As read)

10791 MR. BROATCH: Exactly.

10792 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Please substantiate. You probably know these people, why do you make such a strong statement about the fact that they would only and all the time do urban music if they are licensed?

10793 MR. BROATCH: Well, as I think I pointed out in my presentation, I know that some of the people involved in this are people who have been broadcasting music for free on Community Access Radio for years and years. I mean, they get up three days a week at five o'clock in the morning to get on the air by 7:00 or 8:00, or whatever, and do this all just for love of the music. I think that speaks volumes.

10794 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Do you know the proposed owner of the Future station personally?

10795 MR. BROATCH: Of the Focus group?

10796 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Yes.

10797 MR. BROATCH: I have met them. I'm not as -- I'm not as well acquainted with them as I am with their program director and some of the other people.

10798 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: In the sense that the Commission does not regulate radio format, so as many questions -- I think you were here this morning. Many of our questions have been asked to other intervenors saying that if things went wrong an owner, upon himself or herself, has the right to change formats if things were going wrong.

10799 MR. BROATCH: Yes. I think my point here is that these people are not going to be likely to even entertain the notion of changing formats. They are going to want to make this format work. Not that I think that it is going to be that difficult to work in this market, but I don't think -- they are not the kind of people who are in this just because they see it's time that an urban station would make money. They are in it primarily because they like urban music and have spent a lot of their time over the last decade promoting urban music. I think that is their main priority.

10800 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Thank you, sir.

10801 Thank you, Madam Chair.

10802 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Commissioner Demers.

10803 Commissioner Cardozo.

10804 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Hold on. Hold on.

10805 THE CHAIRPERSON: We are not quite finished with you yet.

10806 MR. BROATCH: I'm sorry, I thought I was done.

10807 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Not so easy.

--- Laughter / Rires

10808 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I just wanted your thoughts on how we should approach the decision we have here.

10809 In terms of music genres there are a number of valid applications that have been put forward, one classical music, one ethnic multicultural, two urban and six smooth jazz, and in each case the applicants have said that this is a market that is seriously underserved and needs to be served more.

10810 What is your advice to us as to how we should pick an urban format when there are others who make the same type of claim?

10811 MR. BROATCH: Well, I'm sure there are lots of markets that are underserved, but this is a market that is desperately underserved and is also ready to work. I mean, if you grant an urban licence in Vancouver it will work and it will probably be the second station in the market within a year or so. It is that big a deal.

10812 So not only are you doing the right thing, you are also doing the thing which will probably be most successful. It is a win-win situation.

10813 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I don't want to go too far down the road with discussing the other applications, because you are really intervening on behalf of one, but surely a smooth jazz could make it financially as well as an urban station could.

10814 MR. BROATCH: Well, I suppose it's possible, but I think it is far less likely. An urban station would be far more successful if you are just talking in terms of ratings and being able to pull advertisers and stuff. An urban station would, as I said, probably go to number two in the market.

10815 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Why do you think nobody else has gone into the urban scene? Because, as you know, we don't licence formats so if somebody wanted to get into the genre they could move into that. What is your sense about why they have -- why somebody else hasn't moved into the genre?

10816 MR. BROATCH: Well, Vancouver has been nothing but a rock and roll town to date and every factor that influences this question is because of that. I mean, all the music critics for all the papers and all the media have been middle-aged white men who like rock and roll. All the radio stations have been rock and roll for so long. It has dominated the market. No one has been interested in doing urban music.

10817 But now, all of a sudden, the population base has changed. What you are seeing on MuchMusic has changed things, what is coming across the border from the States has changed things, and now the situation is pretty much reversed.

10818 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. So I just want to understand, then, where you see the economic activity of urban music. From what you have said today, it is the clubs, it is sale of albums and CDs and it is MuchMusic and it's KUBE. Is that --

10819 MR. BROATCH: What we are saying is that all these things are going on without benefit of the radio. Imagine what it would be like if there was a radio station. I mean, right now urban music is outselling almost every other kind of music. It is the biggest music in the clubs. It is selling out concerts at GM Place, and this is all without benefit of the radio. If we had an urban station it would just take off. The economic benefits to the economy would be amazing.

10820 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Yes. As you know, we have licensed a similar station for Toronto. Do you see this format as something that would take off in other parts of the country too?

10821 MR. BROATCH: Well, it's called urban music for a reason. It is urban music. In a major urban centre it probably would. Unfortunately, we only have the two, so --

10822 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. Thank you very much.

10823 THE CHAIRPERSON: One quick question.

10824 One thing I just wanted to raise with you. I am the B.C. Commissioner on the CRTC. I live here and I have lived here all my life.

10825 We, as you know, have 11 applications -- or nine. I think I'm getting mixed up. Nine for 94.5, including the CBC.

10826 One issue that I wanted to clarify with a number of different people is that the CRTC has, over the years, pressed the CBC to extend their French-language services of both Radio One, la Première Chaîne and la Chaîne culturelle to 50 per cent of the people in each province.

10827 So we have a big balancing act as Commissioners here with all of the applications and all of the different interests and certainly meeting the needs of the various constituencies everywhere. So I just wanted you to understand that there are important goals with respect to the CBC in the French-language services and so we have invited these applications in one extent or another.

10828 However, the best use of the frequency is what we are now trying to determine.

10829 Thank you.

10830 MS VOGEL: For the record, Madam Chair, the next intervenor would have been Destiny Bound. She is not able to attend.

10831 So I would like to invite the Take Charge Program to come forward, please.

--- Pause / Pause

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

10832 MS GARNER: Madam Chairperson and Members of the Board, I would like to take this opportunity to thank you for the chance to express our support for The Future here at this intervention today.

10833 My name is Mandi Garner, I am a Take Charge participant at Kiwassa Neighbourhood House. To my immediate left is my esteemed colleague, Ryan Sittrop; to his left Seon Teki(ph) and Dorita Stephanic(ph), also Take Charge participants at Kiwassa Neighbourhood House.

10834 Kiwassa Neighbourhood House is home to many youth resources and programs. One such youth initiative program is the Take Charge Program. Our mandate is community safety and crime prevention.

10835 Our presentation this afternoon consists of three parts: This introduction, a short skit-like film, followed by quick overviews of our survey studies and, finally, the conclusion.

10836 Before we paint you a picture of the future, let us first visit the past.

10837 MS TEKI: Michael Antoine and Cheryl Terry, who are seated right behind us, are the co-ordinators of the Take Charge Program. They approached our group with a fax outlining a proposal to a radio station. We took the initiative on our own and started the project.

10838 It was originally supposed to be a side project to give us experience in public speaking, research and proposal writing, for our own future program proposals. However, it turned out to be so much more.

10839 As we continued our research into the demands, needs and factual evidence to support the need for this radio station, a passion developed, due in part to the overwhelming response we got from youth all over Vancouver's east side, who not only willingly participated in our surveys but also worked alongside us for encouragement and support.

10840 MS STEPHANIC: The following video that we will be showing is our interpretation of the youth's future, what it will look like if we don't start paying attention to what is going on in the backyards.

--- Video presentation / Présentation vidéo

10841 MS GARNER: Working in a community neighbourhood house, we are witnesses to the dire need of programs within our communities that provide youth with positive solutions for dealing with important issues like abuse, poverty, sex, drugs, bullying. The list is inexhaustible. It is not the lack of programs available, it is the lack of exposure for them.

10842 This now brings us to the present, with Mr. Jim McLaughlin, Vera Radyo and their visionary approach to community radio. We strongly believed in their cause and jumped on the bandwagon, so to speak.

10843 If you would please -- the following graphs that I have compiled were from the information we received in 237 surveys that we conducted.

10844 If you would please refer to the last page of the little package we submitted, it will show you the breakdown of music preference in relation to age and demand according to the surveys that we compiled.

10845 As you will see, most of the votes for hip hop music fall between categories of 15 to 18. There is a big chunk there.

10846 The second of the top four choices that were chosen as far as music categories were rhythm and blues. Again there is a strong following between the ages of 15 and 18 for that category. It is needed.

10847 The third of the four choices, there is a breakdown of votes for rap and D&B breaks, which is drum and bass breaks. Again it falls a little bit earlier, between the ages of 13 and 18. Those are the three largest respective areas that voted for this category.

10848 As you can see, we felt strongly about the need for this station. We have done our own survey of 237 people and discovered that they felt the same as us. We have compiled graphs, charts, demos and interviews, all in the name of Future FM.

10849 If this is not enough, look upon us: We are this radio station. We are as diverse in age as we are in ethnic background and yet our want -- no, our need -- is to have our voice heard.

10850 Future FM is the only medium that will allow this. If you choose to stop this station from existing, you choose to ignore us and, thus, 40 per cent of the Lower Mainland's populous. Remember, we are the ones affected by your choice and we ask that you give Future FM and us a fair chance.

10851 Thank you for your time.

10852 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

10853 Commissioner Pennefather.

10854 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you, Madam Chair.

10855 Good afternoon, everyone. I suppose you are all working on Star Wars 2 in your spare time, if you wish.

10856 Thank you for the presentation. We have your text, so don't worry what you were going to say before, and maybe you can cover it answering some of my questions.

10857 First off, tell us a little more about Take Charge.

10858 MR. SITTROP: Well, Take Charge is a group of 18 individuals who were selected from a mass of, I believe, 100, to deal specifically with community crime intervention and awareness. We come up with different proposals and ideas to reach towards the government in order to create -- what do they call them -- programs, and so forth.

10859 Currently, right now we are working on a few different submissions that will be presented to the government, one which is our own proposition which will be sort of a theatre/sports program that will get youth off the streets and more involved with community, at the same time teaching them self-discipline, respect and also public speaking and that basic, and so forth.

10860 We also help situations similar to like this, when we find a cause that is relevant to what we wish. So that is one of the main reasons why we focused on Future FM. Not necessarily for the music aspect of it, but for the community involvement.

10861 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: How many are you in the group?

10862 MR. SITTROP: There are 18 in total.

10863 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Eighteen?

10864 MR. SITTROP: Yes.

10865 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Let's get to your interest in Future FM then.

10866 You did a survey and you talked about the music, but we also saw the interviews. If you have to sum up, why do you think Future FM is important for youths in Vancouver? What did you hear more than anything else is the reason that it would work for you?

10867 MS GARNER: Okay. I will answer that question.

10868 A lot of the things that we were hearing from the youth that we surveyed was mostly about the music and how it is not played, but we did have a few discussions as far as the community voice that was mentioned in the proposal for Future FM. There is a strong need for it, from their perspective.

10869 I will give you an example. One youth said that if he didn't feel comfortable talking to his parents or a teacher about a certain situation, he would most likely call in a radio show with someone his age or older, approximately a peer, to talk to him about the issue without being, you know, seen as a person. You just hear the problem and get the solution that you need and not be judged by the person in front of him.

10870 Some of the other things that they addressed were -- again, a lot of it has to do with the music because of the age category. They were really interested in the idea that they were getting exposure to the genre of music that they don't have up until now.

10871 That is pretty much it.

10872 We got a lot of support from other youth that participated in our survey and they got their friends to make letters which we will submit to the Secretary later on.

10873 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Great. Thank you for answering that.

10874 One last question: What is it about the Future's programming that makes you think you will have this voice? I'm not talking about music, I am talking about the side that you have really underlined, which is reflecting a place to hear about your issues?

10875 MR. SITTROP: I guess I will answer that one.

10876 In regards to the proposal you saw prior from Future FM, one of the main issues is that they are going to have an advisory council of youth, which will dictate not just programming but also these particular segments, like the youth voice and the community focus.

10877 That is pretty much how we saw the main mandate.

10878 Also, they are going to be out in view of the public. Like their van will be everywhere. They won't just be in a large building far away from everybody. They will be at schools, they will be at areas where youth will be, so they can hear the voices of what people want or what the youth need and what they require so that it can be brought forward to the council as part of their mandate.

10879 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: What youth are you talking about? What age group are you talking about?

10880 MR. SITTROP: The target group, which is 12 to 25 -- 24, yes.

10881 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Okay. I thought in your letter you were more focused on 18 to 24-year-olds, but you see that there is still --

10882 MS GARNER: We had to put in that because the youth would tell their friends or their brothers and siblings and we got a lot of younger participants in the surveys.

10883 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you for coming and thank you for your efforts in bringing some information to all of us.

10884 Thank you, Madam Chair.

10885 MR. SITTROP: Thank you.

10886 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Commissioner.

10887 Thank you very much.

10888 We appreciate you taking the time to come, and for your video. Very good.

10889 MS VOGEL: I would like to call two intervenors to appear as a group, but again, each has 10 minutes and will be questioned separately.

10890 Would Institute for Media Policy & Civil Society come forward, please, along with Vancouver Youth Voices.

10891 THE CHAIRPERSON: Whenever you are ready.

10892 Who is first? Institute for Media Policy.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

10893 MR. MUGABO: Thank you.

10894 Madam Chair, Commissioners, for the record my name is actually Lama Mugabo and it is spelled L-A-M-A, not Larna.

10895 I am pleased to be here to intervene on behalf of Future FM radio.

10896 First of all, let me say that I am here on behalf of the Institute for Media Policy & Civil Society. IMPACS is a non-profit organization whose mandate is to build the capacity of civil society organizations. IMPACS trains various community groups to develop the ability to work effectively with the media, so we give media and communications skills training throughout the province.

10897 A little bit of my own background. I have been working in the field of community development for over 15 years. My work has been mostly dealing with youth, community groups, raising global issues locally.

10898 When I heard about this proposal, I was very delighted. I was delighted for a number of reasons.

10899 Number one, I have been observing a decline of youth interest in current affairs. Part of this reason is because the media, I feel, does not present news in a way that young people can relate too. Often, especially global issues, they are often sensationalized and, as a result, I think youth lose interest in foreign current affairs.

10900 When I heard about this proposal I was delighted, number one, because it has local ownership.

10901 Number two, I was very pleased to see the community development component. The fact that they will have a mobile van which will go from different -- visit different communities and air its programming and looking at what different community groups are doing.

10902 I think this is a way of encouraging youth. I think that by involving youth not only in its programming but also by visiting community groups and talking to people who are working in this field, understanding why they are doing what they do, how they do what they do, I think that it will bring home these ideas which now seem to be elusive.

10903 I was also delighted to look at the youth involvement, in that youth will have a part in it, that they will be involved in programming, they will be involved in considering the ideas, and they will also get hands-on experience in producing a radio show.

10904 The other point which I felt very pleased and very delighted about Future FM radio was the Canadian talent development. I think that we need to support in any way we can our local talent, that people who work so hard at their craft can have the exposure they need to be able to flourish in what they do. So I was very pleased to see that Future FM radio was going to do just that.

10905 One other point that I want to point out here is that Future FM radio received over 500 letters of support from community groups, from artists, from people who believe in this application for the reasons that I mentioned above, and I am here to lend my support because I believe in this approach, I believe in this application.

10906 To conclude, I want to say that I am a parent. I have a teenage daughter who attends a high school here in Burnaby South and she tells me that over 75 per cent of the students at her school are non-caucasian. So by targeting rap, R&B and new music I think we will be addressing -- we will be providing the kind of music that these young people want to hear, and I think this will be a magnet to draw to the community development aspect of this radio program and that by playing the music and by airing the kind of activities that are happening in their community, I think this will be a step in the right direction.

10907 I will now stop here and welcome your questions.

10908 Thank you.

10909 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr. Mugabo. Is that right?

10910 MR. MUGABO: Right.

10911 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Pennefather.

10912 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you, Madam Chair.

10913 Good afternoon, Mr. Mugabo.

10914 MR. MUGABO: Good afternoon.

10915 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: You have actually answered some of the questions I had in reading your letter, expanding a little bit on your two points, changing the way youth are responding or hearing about current events and a chance to work in the business.

10916 So I would like you to just expand a little more this afternoon on your comment on local ownership. Why do you feel that is important? If we look at why you are interested in Future, a station for youths, why is the local ownership important?

10917 MR. MUGABO: Local ownership is important for two reasons.

10918 One, in terms of decision-making. These people will be here, will be accessible.

10919 Number two, they have thought through about the concept about the programming and I think the fact that they are here and we can contact them, we can see them in terms of a decision is very significant.

10920 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: One other question that I didn't hear as much about from you I would like to go back to and that is the music component.

10921 In your work you obviously are very articulate on the community issues component and you mentioned the mobiles, and so on. But the music, in the end, you said has a place here.

10922 What kind of music are you talking about and why would it be important? It seems to be the area you say would reflect the diverse community, for example, at your child's school. What kind of music are you talking about?

10923 MR. MUGABO: I'm talking about rap music, I'm talking R&B, I'm talking about world music or any new music, as they call it.

10924 It is actually interesting to see that over 10 years, over the last decade, rap or R&B has flourished. I don't go to clubs as I used to, but it's interesting that when I talk to young people and when I play the radio I hear what most people will call black music, but it has come in terms of rap and R&B.

10925 It is also interesting that it does not have cultural boundaries, that people of different backgrounds are reaching out and they are being touched by this music. So this is, for me, interesting in terms of what has happened over the 10 years in that this music is not just black music but it is the music of a new generation of the Future, as this radio station wants to be called.

10926 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: I have to take advantage of you being here for one other point.

10927 One might say as a 20, 30, 40, 50-something -- anyway, mother -- that all radio was really -- a lot of commercial radio was geared to youth, and yet you are saying this has never been done before. What makes this different?

10928 MR. MUGABO: I think what is different here is not only that this music has an audience among young people, but that young people will be taking part in its programming.

10929 Young people would be tuned to this radio station because of the way it opens up to the young people. So I think it is a win-win situation, both from the community standpoint and from a music promotion standpoint.

10930 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you.

10931 Thank you, Madam Chair.

10932 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr. Mugabo.

10933 Vancouver Youth Voices.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

10934 MR. HACK: Madam Chair, Commissioners. My name is Carter Hack and I am here to speak on behalf of Vancouver Youth Voices.

10935 Vancouver Youth Voices supports Future FM because of their special interest and dedication to community-based broadcasting and for providing opportunity for community groups to voice their concerns.

10936 A youth-driven coalition, Vancouver Youth Voices is concerned with the issues that face youth across the city. Many of the individual youth who are involved with Vancouver Youth Voices have expressed their desire for a station like Future. Ranging from musicians to advocates our young people, they feel that Future FM will not only benefit them, but they will have something to give through input and participation with the station.

10937 Future FM's community broadcasting segments will enable relatively small not-for-profits like Vancouver Youth Voices to voice opinions that rarely get heard. Future FM will create an outlet for new and unique perspectives to be heard by listeners.

10938 We believe Future FM will cater to the interests of a diverse range of youth. Future FM will have a youth advisory board made up of representatives from youth-driven and youth-focused groups from across the Lower Mainland. By having a youth advisory, Future FM will ensure that the station supports youth voice, as well as giving airplay to independent local artists and music from different ethnic groups.

10939 Vancouver has a large number of struggling local musicians and adequate airtime to local artists is not being provided by existing stations. With Future FM's promise of increased airtime for local artists, the station will support and promote the emergence of local bands more than any of the other popular stations in the Lower Mainland.

10940 We at Vancouver Youth Voices feel Future FM has made a commitment to creating a much needed forum for different voices, one that differs from any other local station by being available and accountable to local communities, especially youth.

10941 The youth advisory and consultations with community groups are only some of the things that makes Vancouver Youth Voices proud to support Future FM.

10942 Thank you.

10943 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

10944 Commissioner Pennefather.

10945 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you.

10946 I don't think I caught your last name.

10947 MR. HACK: Hack, H-A-C-K.

10948 Miranda here also has her own presentation.

10949 THE CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry?

10950 MR. HACK: Miranda has her own presentation.

10951 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

10952 MS JOHNSON: Okay. I'm a little nervous, so whatever, be nice to me.

--- Laughter / Rires

10953 THE CHAIRPERSON: When are we ever anything but nice to everybody?

--- Laughter / Rires

10954 MS JOHNSON: Okay. Like Carter said, I am Miranda and I am here to speak on behalf of Future FM. As a writer, musician, youth and community activist here in Vancouver, I strongly believe that this radio station is needed.

10955 So what can I say, except for give these people money.

10956 But seriously, though, these people have a really great idea on their hands and they have the potential to take community development to another level through their broadcasting, which is something that we should be trying to do with our media, right.

10957 I have sat down with Vera and Jim on more occasions than one, and I can honestly say that with the format they have planned, not only will the station be a commercial success, but it will also give the public something they have never heard before: Something to think about.

10958 Imagine the unity in communication that such a station could facilitate. Future FM's allowing and encouraging community participation in their radio station is something the public has rarely experienced but would dearly embrace. The idea of putting community and youth concerns on-air is not only brilliant, it has the potential to be revolutionary and would do something no other station can do: provide people with enlightenment and understanding.

10959 Imagine the difference that could be made in a young person's life who is listening to the station on a day when the concern discussed is drug abuse or bullying. These are issues that we have all faced as young people and being able to hear the truth or advice can make all the difference in someone's life, especially when they are facing those issues.

10960 The one thing that Vancouver's current radio stations lack is integrity and intelligence. Future FM has that and so much more. They are going to be offering the public the music they want, by the artists they love, all wrapped up with the occasional conversation about the things that truly matter and affect our lives.

10961 I'm hooked and so are most of the people I have spoken to. I know people from all walks of life, whether they are street youth, corporate businessmen, people like myself, artists, musicians, residential DJs from Sonar and Lotus, they are all blown away by the idea and they are totally stoked on supporting such a station.

10962 Most of them have stopped listening to the radio because it offers them nothing but the same 40 songs and commercials. Nothing tangible, nothing memorable, nothing that really matters.

10963 We are bored with the current formats on-air and we want more. Future FM has the missing element: communication. They have the music to hook the kids and the talk to keep them coming back for more. This station has the potential to make a difference in the world, which is more than what I can say for most of the stations out there.

10964 I was speaking to an elderly woman on the skytrain last week and she was going on about how kids these days have no respect for their elders and they don't care about anything except for being cool and trying to live up to expectations that the TV puts on them, and blah, blah, blah, no respect. You know how it goes. I'm sure you get the point.

10965 I hate to say it, but to a certain extent she is right. That is only because the media does nothing but provide kids with ridiculous images of cool and that is what they expect and want to live up to.

10966 We all know that that kind of thinking can make people blind and Future FM has the potential to open up people's eyes and the doors of communication. It has the music to hook people and the talk to keep the audience around. I really can't think of a better way to run it, so give them money and I will be happy and so will everyone else.

10967 THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, we are not in the money giving out business.

--- Laughter / Rires

10968 MS JOHNSON: Okay, I didn't know, I was just like --

10969 THE CHAIRPERSON: Hey, it's all right.

10970 Since Commissioner Pennefather is the nicest of the five of us, I will let her ask you the questions.

--- Laughter / Rires

10971 MS JOHNSON: All right.

10972 THE CHAIRPERSON: Although the rest of us are pretty nice too.

--- Laughter / Rires

10973 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: You never know what is deep down so you have to be careful. It could be reversed.

10974 Can you both tell us a little bit more about Vancouver Youth Voices?

10975 MS JOHNSON: I'm sorry?

10976 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Can you tell us a bit more about Vancouver Youth Voices? I see a whole list of organizations here. Is it an umbrella group that covers all these participants and are you speaking for everyone that is listed on your letterhead here?

10977 MR. HACK: Vancouver Youth Voices is one member of the coalition that I think you have in front of you. In Vancouver Youth Voices there is also a few other organizations that stem out from underneath them and we are speaking on behalf of those ones, yes.

10978 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: What is your major preoccupation, Vancouver Youth Voices? What are you there to do? What is the purpose of your organization?

10979 MR. HACK: We are there to co-ordinate youth initiatives and speak -- advocate for youth and bring up issues and find ways to deal with them or find ways of making them more public and give them recognition.

10980 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: You have described how you think Future will meet your objectives and what you have heard kids are looking for. It's interesting, does radio still matter?

10981 Miranda, you mentioned television and the influence it has. I think it came up in a conversation with the lady on the skytrain.

10982 MS JOHNSON: Yes.

10983 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: The images you presented today were from the theatre, from film, and there is the Internet. Where does radio fit in? Why is it so important to you?

10984 MS JOHNSON: Radio broadcasting is a means of communication and as youth we are always -- and people in general we are always looking for ways to communicate with and with the most amount of people that we possibly can. Radio facilitates that.

10985 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: What kind of music do you think they will be playing on Future?

10986 MS JOHNSON: Like Take Charge presented, they will be doing R&B, hip hop, urban music I think as well, and world music. They are going to be covering a lot of bases, from what I understand. I read Take Charge's write-up on it, and they are going to be covering everything from hip hop to rock, which is cool, because it is going to get a lot of people with that.

10987 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you very much.

10988 And thank you for taking the time to come and talk to us. It is really important we hear views from many different parts of the community.

10989 MS JOHNSON: Great.

10990 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you for being here.

10991 MS JOHNSON: Thank you.

10992 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

10993 MS JOHNSON: That was scary.

10994 THE CHAIRPERSON: It wasn't that scary, was it?

10995 MS JOHNSON: Oh, I was on the microphone?

--- Laughter / Rires

10996 MS VOGEL: I would like to call the next two intervenors, please, the representative for Randy Raine-Reusch World Music and Drew Burns.

10997 Could you come forward, please.

--- Pause / Pause

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

10998 MR. KOAT: Commissioners, you know that Randy Raine-Reusch is an internationally renowned composer and performer, founder of the cross-pollination world beat band called ASZA. They are from Vancouver and they have recently, to my understanding, left on tour and so I have been asked to intervene by bringing to light some of the points that Randy would have brought up through the course of this phase of the hearings.

10999 With that, Madam Chair, Commissioners, good afternoon.

11000 My name is Cal Koat. I have been working 20 years in greater Vancouver radio, 15 of those specifically in multicultural broadcasting, most recently as International Program Director of 96.1 FM CHKG and AM 2470 CJBB Fairchild Radio.

11001 I was instrumental in the application of acquisition of Fairchild Media Group's licence for AM 1430 CHKT Toronto and wrote the programming format for 96.1 FM, affectionately known as The World, which for three years, until October 31st of this year, grew a loyal and enthusiastic audience as North America's very first commercial FM world beat radio station.

11002 Last year I was presented with the Canadian Association of Broadcasters highest honour for Canadian talent development, the Gold Ribbon Award, recognizing 96.1 FM's world music spectacular for excellence in the promotion and development of Canada's world music artists.

11003 Innovative, completely original and polished in presentation, my World Beat Wake Up and Crossing Cultures programs earned the station gold and platinum records from Warner Music Canada for the contribution to sales in excess of 100,000 albums of the phenomenon The Buena Vista Social Club.

11004 I love radio. It has given me immeasurable satisfaction and considerable insight into the value of cross-cultural programming. This is why I have come before you today to speak a few words of support for the licence application by Future radio.

11005 Unlike Toronto, where there are neighbourhoods that represent a physical manifestation of distinct cultural communities, Vancouver is a tapestry, a cultural mosaic in the truest sense, an example of dispersed diversity.

11006 Aside from obvious cultural hubs like old Chinatown and the Punjabi market, greater Vancouver's 70 or more ethnocultural groups are sprinkled throughout our urban melange. In order for radio to present an accurate and relevant reflection of this diverse community it must weave a programming format which can localize and at the same time be globally attuned.

11007 Our youth can point broadcasters in the right direction. Through the school system, the Internet, fashion, food and music, the next generation of urban Vancouverites are growing up in an environment which breeds enthusiasm for intercultural exploration. In their world, Indian henna tattoos and Japanese bubble tea are enjoyed over a soundtrack of world beat and urban rhythms. Traditional rock and pop radio does not effectively reach this audience they purport to serve.

11008 World beat has become the fastest growing genre in the music market. Beyond its inherent entertainment value, this music has important sociological benefits. It offers a window into other cultures through a form of artistic expression that crosses over language boundaries, providing a medium for building appreciation, awareness and understanding.

11009 In addition, Vancouver boasts a community of global music artists of international renown.

11010 In the application before you, Future radio promises to provide this community meaningful airplay. Now, there are many avenues open to musicians of such a high calibre for funding support. These are working musicians who know how to use the music business to their own advantage. What is missing is the service radio has traditionally always best been able to provide, a vehicle for spotlighting the music artists create before a listening audience on the commercial airwaves.

11011 Future radio has also indicated their intentions to accurately represent the diversity in our society by becoming active and visible participants in it. By taking to the streets with regular on location broadcasts, their announcers will gain firsthand insight of the cultural influences that are shaping the look and feel of the neighbourhoods in greater Vancouver.

11012 Arthur C. Clarke said "The future ain't what it used to be". The old programming formulas for commercial radio are not effectively going to be able to serve tomorrow's diverse and ever changing society.

11013 In this round of hearings for what could be the last and highly contested clear frequency licence in this market, it is my hope the Commission will give ample consideration to a forward-thinking application conceived by broadcasters who have their ears tuned to the needs of our communities and their eyes set squarely on the next generation. The future is indeed in your hands.

11014 Thank you very much.

11015 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Koat.

11016 Commissioner Pennefather.

11017 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Good afternoon, Mr. Koat. Thank you for coming.

11018 I have both your presentation today and the letter sent earlier by Mr. Rane-Reusch.

11019 MR. KOAT: Yes.

11020 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: I think what I would like to get a better understanding of in what you presented today is the nature of the music that you are talking about here and its audience.

11021 We have just talked to other intervenors to a great extent about the use audience for Future. You are talking about a music genre, which I believe the letter does too, reaching across many generations.

11022 How do you connect these two ideas, that you have a music format here that is talking to many generations and yet a fairly focused audience for the Future application to 12 to 24? What is going to make this work, this kind of programming work for that audience?

11023 MR. KOAT: The tie is urban music. You have heard that throughout the course of this phase of the hearings. Urban music has reached its tentacles into many aspects of today's society and crossed over many generations and boundaries.

11024 In terms of world beat, urban music is one of the glues that binds these musical elements from different cultures.

11025 If you take a look at what is happening in France, Parisian world beat is heavily urban influenced because of the rough and tumble barrios in Paris, which is a make-up of Arabic and Latino and African influences as well as the French. The French language actually lends itself to soften the edges of the urban music. It takes some of the edge off of it and it is a beautiful sound.

11026 In Latin America you have groups like from Cuba, Orishas, who have taken the traditional Cuban songs from Compay Segundo, from the Buena Vista Social Club, written in the tobacco fields back in 1929, and they have taken it and combined it with urban rhythms and they presented a concert at that Vancouver International Jazz Festival. It was a sell out. Most of the crowd there were youth between -- I would say 19 and -- well, no minors, but between 19 and 25 certainly.

11027 But this has been typical of the world beat concerts that we as 96.1 FM had been presenting. Each and every one a sell-out show at the Commodore Ballroom. Some of the best and biggest venues around the city.

11028 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you.

11029 As repeated before, we don't regulate format, but I'm just trying to get an understanding of the music from the point of view, too, of the audience representatives we just saw previously where the focus is on youth. And it is your sense that what you have described, you have just described, which is of a world beat nature, if you will, will be of interest to that audience that is described in the application and we saw some representatives of today?

11030 MR. KOAT: Absolutely. World musicians are doing the same thing that urban musicians are, and that is tapping into different genres of music, reaching inside and pulling out elements and combining them in a cross-pollination aspect.

11031 The musicians themselves were pointing the way toward this. They speak their own language. Music is an international language so you have artists like Randy Raine-Reusch with ASZA, you have a North American multi-instrumentalist, a guitarist or a percussionist from Montevideo; you have a Chinese pipa player; and you have a French oud and flamenco guitarist who would not speak each other's language 10 years ago but have come together and are sharing these different kinds of musical expression.

11032 Now, the urban artists are doing the same thing and a lot of artists are crossing the boundaries between urban and world using decs(ph) and drums beats and putting them behind more traditional kinds of world sounds and coming up with new music as well. So it definitely has an appeal to the youth.

11033 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you.

11034 Thank you, Madam Chair.

11035 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Commissioner.

11036 Mr. Burns.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

11037 MR. BURNS: Good afternoon. I was just making sure it was on.

11038 My name is Drew Burns. I owned the Commodore Ballroom here in Vancouver for 28 years. If you don't know the Commodore, it had a capacity of 1,200. We have done just about everything -- or I did just about everything that we could in music.

11039 I can remember when hip hop started. I'm 35 years in the business. I remember when rap started and the Ice T's and the Ice Cube's and all the ones that have come through the house.

11040 My representation for Future is that over the years in the Commodore I started a series, an indie series for young bands, all genders of bands. It didn't -- the alternative, it could be country, to get them in a big room in front of a half a million dollar sound system, lights, to hear themselves, how good they were, how bad they were, a place for them to play.

11041 This city is loaded with talent, as every other city in Canada is, and that worked. It cost me a lot of money, but I had to look towards the future: Where were the new acts going to come from as the older ones dissipated or retired from it?

11042 That is what I like about Future radio, is the fact that they are going to do that type of thing.

11043 On some of the notes here, the station will provide meaningful airplay for new recordings, breakthrough exposure and financial support for the promotion and development of new artists. They will play one new record from a new local or Canadian artist every hour. They are going to play 42 per cent content, which is over the 35 required. And they will provide $315,000 a year over seven years, a total of $2.2 million to assist new Canadian artists through monthly concerts featuring new local artists, assisting with video production, scholarships and support by the Pacific Music Association.

11044 That to me is where music must come from.

11045 In all the new music we talk about, the rap and the hip hop and so on, it all germinates from the youth. Youth, the young ones are the ones who come up with these new sounds. As I say, I look back when I first bought the Commodore, a lot of these sounds were not around and now we are seeing hip hop working with rap, which six or seven years ago that was unheard of. Those artists had to be individual.

11046 It is the kids, the kids that are going to germinate the new music and the music that is here today.

11047 You took all my words away, because he just said it all really.

11048 That is where I really stand on it, is to see and give the kids a chance, under age shows, particularly in the embodiment of that age bracket, in that 10 to 24. This is where the scene is in the urban scene in this city and I'm sure it is in Toronto and in American cities.

11049 I think that is basically -- I will give you an idea. Just back a year ago in December I was given an award by Pacific Music and the award was for industry builder in the business. I will just read a few lines from that speech. This was at the Commodore.

"There is only one thing worse or harder than being a club owner, and that is being a musician, slogging around for years hoping for someone to hear the music, the music that the musician hears, desperate for the dream to materialize. For some it happens, for some it never does." (As read)

11050 Then it continues with:

"The sad part is, it has little to do with talent or desire. It is mostly luck and the opportunity of their music being heard..." (As read)

11051 And particularly through radio

"...and a lot of hard work from the people you don't see, the agents, the club owners, the managers, and definitely the support of radio and newspaper." (As read)

11052 And another little part was on the end of that:

"Last, but not least, the moms and dads who fill the vans with gasoline and believe in that dream." (As read)

11053 Then I go back to Larry Wanagas, who used to be the manager for k.d. lang. We came across a young bus group playing on a liquor store up at 7th and Broadway, and his name happens to be Colin James. And through working with Colin and that talent that is still there today in his particular genre of music, he ended up in seven nights in November of 1998 selling out the Commodore, which he still holds the record.

11054 I go back to k.d. lang. Again, Larry Wanagas managed k.d. She played one New Year's Eve in the little Savoy down in the Gastown. The next New Year's Eve she played with me, sold it out New Year's Eve and two other nights with that.

11055 Now, looking back in the support of the radio stations in the past, all these young artists, unless they have a record deal, which doesn't often happen, popularity of the people. Now, k.d. lang probably could have moved double fast, certainly Colin could have moved faster had radio stations been able to have played or would have played his music.

11056 That is what I like about Future. They are going to give that artist a chance. It doesn't just sit in one particular area of music. They will play that one cut every hour. They will have those concerts for the kids, under age, which is great.

11057 I did lots of under age concerts at the Commodore, lost money actually because I didn't have a bar and big nightclubs operate because of bars.

11058 That is just an example of all the good things that can come from a radio station that is willing to give, not necessarily always by bucks.

11059 And I might add, too, that I have no affiliation with this station, I am not a shareholder, I am not going to be the car jockey or am I not going to clean the washrooms. I am here only because I believe in this format that they have going for them.

11060 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Burns.

11061 Commissioner Demers.

11062 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Thank you, Madam Chair.

11063 Mr. Burns, just one question: Why would this type of music not be on the present station in the market?

11064 MR. BURNS: Well, I think some of the stations will play some of the urban music, but they will only play them as hits, if it is a hit. That PD, that program and music and director, had designed the station to go a certain way. They are there for an obvious reason, it's dollars. But very seldom will they take a lot of music that isn't popular or requested, and so on. They don't play that.

11065 Formats don't change on radio stations unless they are going broke. That is the general census. Every station in this particular city now is formatted to do what it does, and most of them are quite successful at it.

11066 The urban music, I would call it new by the last 10 years. They kids are really into it and the diversification of our ethnic society in the Lower Mainland of this city is very important and many of the kids who are looking for this music are listening across the American side. They are not getting it here. They are getting some of it here.

11067 Kids like to hear new stuff, not necessarily the hit, they want to hear something that somebody else did, particularly if it is local.

11068 And that is why I'm for Future, is because let's hope that we can create another Brian Adams and another Sarah McLachlan, whatever that genre of music is, but particularly this where it is now.

11069 The kids when I grew up, which a few years ago -- but the kids in the last 20 years, they grew up to rock. That was all they heard. That isn't the case today. Their choices of music are not certainly in rock. Not that they don't like rock, but it is the urban sound that is really where the format is. You hear it all over, you hear it on their head speakers when they are jogging. That is the way to go. And it should go to Future.

11070 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Thank you, Mr. Burns.

11071 MR. BURNS: My pleasure.

11072 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Madam Chair.

11073 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Burns, Mr. Koat. Thank you very much.

11074 We appreciate you taking the time to be with us today and share your views.

11075 Thank you.

--- Pause / Pause

11076 MS VOGEL: Is anyone from Vancouver & Lower Mainland Multicultural Family Support Services Society in the room?

--- Pause / Pause

11077 MS VOGEL: Seeing no movement, I would like to call Amaan Gangji and Kaitlin McVarish.

--- Pause / Pause

11078 THE CHAIRPERSON: You are one presenter?

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

11079 MR. GANGJI: We are both doing it together.

11080 My name is Amaan Gangji. This is Kaitlin.

11081 Initially I just want to thank you for allowing us to intervene on behalf of Future FM.

11082 First of all, I would like to start off by talking about the music and its need. Vancouver's rap and hip hop market are severely undernourished. There most definitely is a demand, so where is the supply.

11083 Future FM's targeted audience is youth from ages 12 to 24. These youths enjoy listening to rap and hip hop, but the closest thing to that in Vancouver is Z95.3. However, "Z" only allows rap to be played on the radio station sparsely, and only after it has become a hit. Therefore, no new talent is ever even displayed.

11084 In fact, the closest thing to a rap radio station that Vancouverites have is Seattle's KUBE 93. Most students at my school would rather listen to KUBE 93 with a bunch of static than even think about turning on "Z".

11085 Personally, I can remember waking up on Monday in the twilight hours of the day just to turn my tape deck to 109.9 -- which is a UBC radio station which plays rap in the twilight hours of Monday morning -- and just press "Record". That way I would have a copy of some new rap music for the rest of the week. That would only be on Mondays in the twilight hours, but other than that Vancouver has no access to new rap music.

11086 Another advantage of Future FM is that it holds a strong commitment to local talent. Vancouver is filled with young talent in this genre of music except they lack access. They lack access to exposure and they lack access to equipment. Vancouver definitely has a means to support such an industry, but they don't have the medium.

11087 Artists such as The Fourth World Occupants are as good as any rap group in the business, but you have probably never heard of them.

11088 Future FM is dedicated to playing Canadian content at a rate of 42 per cent. They also plan to play new Canadian artists ever hour. Future FM is also willing to provide $315,000 a year for seven years to assist new Canadian artists. This level of dedication will no doubt lead to the development of a new industry and I, for one, can be an example to that.

11089 I have just recently starting doing some rapping and it is really hard to get ahead in Vancouver, but this summer I went to Toronto and in a week there I met up with a friend and I am going to end up working with him on a label next summer. So having a radio station there has provided an environment that is conducive to artists.

11090 Besides the music and the industry, Future FM plans to step out of the radio realm and commit itself to community development. This starts with broadcasting of local news, weather, sports and cultural information, along with local events relevant to today's youth.

11091 This type of broadcasting can bring a diverse Vancouver community together through information in English, because when an Asian or Persian high school basketball player turns to Future FM to hear the local basketball scores, he or she just might hear one of Future FM's community voices or youth voices show. These shows focus on issues that affect all youth and they could help them have a better understanding of each other and bring the diversity closer together.

11092 So, in conclusion, Future FM is not only about the music, but about a movement, a movement to support a new industry in Vancouver and a movement to bring Vancouver's diverse community together.

11093 My message is simple: Future FM is a necessity because there is a demand and a need for not only the music, but the movement.

11094 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

11095 You know what, I'm a bit confused here. Do we have two presenters here?

11096 MS VOGEL: But both for the same intervenor.

11097 THE CHAIRPERSON: Oh, thank you.

11098 MS McVARISH: My name is Kaitlin McVarish and I go to Vancouver Technical Secondary School, which is in east Vancouver, and I can't stress enough how much, like, music is important to youth these days and having our voice heard. And I know I'm not the only one who doesn't think we are not being heard enough.

11099 Last year at our school we had a big situation which was labelled a racial situation at our school with Filipinos against the white population -- the caucasian population at our school. But through the media and stuff, and the news and on, like, CBC it was labelled that the Filipino population was in a gang war against the caucasian population. But to the students of our school it wasn't like that at all. It labelled our school as a racist school and, therefore, our Filipino population left our school to go to different schools that would accept them, so to say.

11100 And we were -- my friend was on the news, and they interviewed him but they chopped out parts saying stuff and put -- like chopped stuff together so that it would sound the way they wanted it to sound. With Future FM our voice, I think, would have way more say in the situations.

11101 And I was talking to some friends at school today and I was asking them what they would like to see in a new radio station, and the number one thing they said, besides the hip hop and rap music, that they want to hear would be for, like high, schools sports to be announced. Like if there is a big basketball tournament they would want to know who the winner is and stuff like that.

11102 My friend, when she was younger, the only thing she was allowed to listen to in her household was Doug and the Slugs, because her dad is part of that band. And she was talking to me and I told her "If you want to hear what you want to hear you are going to have to speak up and you are going to have to get your voice heard and you are going to have to fight for what you want." That is what we have come here today to say and what the rest of the presenters have come to say.

11103 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

11104 Commissioner Demers.

11105 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Thank you.

11106 Could you indicate in what way and why Future will answer what you are looking for? You are intervening, so will you have a voice in the programming of Future?

11107 MR. GANGJI: Well, I think with their shows that they have with community voices and youth voices, that gives everyone a voice in what they are going to do with that, right. Because they are going to have segments which will have teenagers calling in and talking about the problems that they have. That gives us a voice to sort of deal with the problems that we have.

11108 Like someone else previously said, that if there was a problem that they couldn't go to their parents with or anyone else with, they could call into the radio station. This just helps a lot of youth to get a lot of stuff off of their chest and to give themselves a voice and to give them a realm in which they could deal with their own problems.

11109 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: You have referred to an incident at your school, mademoiselle. In what sense would such a situation be helped, would be solved through Future?

11110 MS McVARISH: Well, the students could call in and they could talk about how it is not like labelled as -- like it was not a racial situation at our school. It just happened to be that it was a Filipino group against a caucasian group. We could voice what we believe and stuff like that instead of having, like, the main news stations say it was -- because half the stuff that they were saying was not true. So we could call and explain the situations and stuff more clearly to the youth than what they have said.

11111 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Thank you.

11112 Thank you, Madam Chair.

11113 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you both very much.

11114 We appreciate you coming in today and speaking to us. Thank you.

11115 We will take a little break, and we will be back at 3:00.

--- Upon recessing at 1445 / Suspension à 1445

--- Upon resuming at 1501 / Reprise à 1501

11116 THE CHAIRPERSON: Madam Secretary.

11117 MS VOGEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

11118 I would like to call David DiTomaso and John Doheny, please.

--- Pause / Pause

11119 THE CHAIRPERSON: Whenever you are ready.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

11120 MR. DOHENY: Good afternoon, Madam Chairman and Commissioners. My name is John Doheny.

11121 I will also be Ian Hampton for a brief period of time. I will read Mr. Hampton's submission into the record. I will have to editorialize a bit on the opening page here.

11122 Ian Hampton, has worked in the music profession for 45 years. His early career was in the U.K. with the London Symphony Orchestra, The Academy of St. Martins and the Edinburgh String Quartet.

11123 Mr. Hampton immigrated to Canada in 1966 and has worked in Vancouver as principal cellist of the VSO, CBC Vancouver Orchestra and Vancouver Opera Orchestra. The last two he was also Personnel Manager. He was cellist of the Purcell String Quartet for 20 years. And has been the Principal of Langley Community Music School for a similar length of time.

11124 The first section is slugged: Training for Music.

11125 Very rigorous training from an early age is required to produce musicians who, as performers, can react instantly to concert conditions and have also a vast array of technical and intellectual information to bring to their chosen disciplines. This education will take at least 15 years to condition young musicians to the requirements of the music profession. It follows that at each stage of training there must be support for students: parental, school, professional institutions and, finally, most importantly, business enterprises.

11126 The Music Profession.

11127 The fraternity changes for every generation. Young talent entering the profession needs to come up with creative ways to maintain a living. Whatever the exigencies, whatever the solutions, the musician has to have received a thorough education.

11128 As a principal of a music school I cannot tell how each student will use the skills they acquire. They will certainly be entering a highly competitive market that will require them to diversify their talents. While professional expectations are high, demands of the market are somewhat fickle.

11129 For instance, when I played in a string quartet, concerts were like going to church, a serious presentation of elevating repertoire. Now such ensembles offer a crossover mix of Lennon and late Beethoven. Again, as a professional string quartet we gave many educational concerts because schools thought their students should be exposed to great chamber music. During those years, the definition of concerts was changed to entertainment, making way to a variety of events, some of which must have been of dubious educational value.

11130 Some Current Problems in the Music Profession.

11131 The value of music as a subject which develops the child is not highly regarded in the school system. Music has withered with tax cuts and neither has funding increased for private music schools.

11132 The excessive cost of postgraduate education is disproportionate to the income expected. Neither the educated nor the educator have come to terms with this.

11133 The educational investment of our young people tends to be met by indifference when they enter the workforce. The prime musical institutions are reluctant to offer solo spots and auditions are regularly opened up internationally.

11134 The breadth and variety of pop culture, with its willingness to experiment with content and technology does offer opportunity. In contrast, the large cultural institutions, driven by management rather than artistic vision, has relied on safe formulae for presentations. This is proving a bankrupt policy as audience and repertoire dwindle in tandem.

11135 CHUM M.Play, A New Initiative.

11136 In a cycle of shrinking ideas, opportunities and funding CHUM M.Play has put forward a plan that may stimulate other organizations to similar activity. It opens up areas of support and pursuit of ideas that have possibility of continuous development. The plan includes exposure of local and Canadian artists, a mentor program in recording and support for students attending high profile events and, with consultation with educators, support for music in the school system with equipment, workshops, competitions, et cetera.

11137 I would like to speak to a couple of points in Mr. Hampton's presentation that I think are germane.

11138 The first one is:

"They will certainly be entering a highly competitive market that will require them to diversify their talents."

11139 I think Mr. Hampton is speaking to the issue of the diminishing emphasis placed on music education in our schools. The arguments about styles, whether classical or jazz or pop music, seems to me, when you talk about training musicians, these are irrelevant issues.

11140 I have spent my entire life as a professional musician in virtually every genre except rap and hip hop. The skills that I developed as a young music student have served me well in that area. I have been able to make a living because I was well trained, and there are fewer and fewer opportunities for young musicians to do that. It may stimulate other organizations to similar activity.

11141 I have been spending a fair amount of time in New Orleans every year, which is not a rich community, and yet they make very, very sure that they spend money on developing young musicians in that town. It is no accident that they produce music of real significance, the Marsalis Clan, Harry Connick Jr., people like this. These guys are all products of the NOCCA, the New Orleans Centre for the Creative Arts, which is the arts high school in New Orleans. It is the equivalent of our Langley institution that Mr. Hampton teaches at, only more well-funded.

11142 I would like to move on to being John Doheny for a moment.

11143 I don't have a prepared statement. I only have my own experience to speak to you from.

11144 I have been a professional musician all of my adult life. In the last few years I have gotten seriously into music education. In sitting here listening to people making their interventions today, I have realized that you have heard a great deal from the sort of supply end of broadcasting. People are talking about what kind of music we want to hear. Is it serving our community well? Is it addressing the needs of youth?

11145 Those are all legitimate issues, but what I haven't heard a great deal of is where all this stuff is coming from.

11146 One of the reasons I decided to speak today for CHUM was because some years ago when CHUM, as a parent company to Bravo!, was asking for a television licence in this area I really did feel that I should have spoken up and I didn't and subsequently that licence went to a local company, VTV.

11147 I believe in their proposal they made a great deal of noise about how local they were and how much service they were going to be to the community. I haven't seen a great deal of that, whereas Bravo! television remains to this day the only television outlet that has been responsive, for instance, to my attempts to expose my own projects.

11148 I am a professional jazz musician. I have a quintet. I managed to get significant exposure on Bravo! news. That is a Toronto-based company which, in my opinion, was doing a better job of covering the jazz scene here in Vancouver than the local media outlets which were -- television anyway -- doing virtually nothing and still continue to do nothing, or if they have I haven't noticed.

11149 Education. It is not a sexy thing. I am not going to speak about the support of celebrities or the celebrity culture. I don't think that is important. I think that is the consumer end of what we are talking about here.

11150 What I would like to talk about are the people whose dedication and tireless efforts enable us to produce these musicians. When I hear people talk about talent, I think that is nonsense. I have students who say "Well, Mr. Doheny, sure you can play well because you have this great talent that you have been given."

11151 Well, I don't remember anybody giving me anything. What I do remember is significant and important mentors in my life who were my musical instructors and tens of thousands of hours of sitting in a room playing scales. That is the talent. Really there is no talent, there is opportunity and development.

11152 So if we are talking about that, now, has the Commission seen CHUM's video?

11153 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

11154 MR. DOHENY: Well, then you have seen Brian Stovall, David Duke. These are big cheeses in this town. These are guys who are responsible for developing a lot of music.

11155 Brian's program, I remember a couple of years ago I was headed over to Nanaimo to play with my quintet and Bill Clark, who was the trumpet player at the time, I said "Gee, Bill, there is no jazz scene in Nanaimo. Why are all these great players coming out of here? Is it something in the water?" Bill said, "No, it's something in the schools. It is Brian Stovall."

11156 Brian Stovall's program gave us Diana Krall. Brian Stovall's program gave us Ingrid Jensen and Rene Rosnes in New York now, Phil Dwyer, who is the first call tenor player in Toronto.

11157 Those people all went through that program. Without those opportunities this God-given talent that they supposedly had probably would have languished. I mean, maybe not. Maybe they would have been so determined to be great players that they would have done it no matter what obstacles were placed in their way, but we really have no way of knowing that.

11158 Now, I have broken bread with the CHUM people. I am not someone who gives of his support lightly.

11159 Incidentally, just talking with Drew Burns out in the lobby there, I thanked him for all the free beer and money he put in my pocket over the years, and we said that what musicians really need is grants and other good scotch.

11160 In my travels to New Orleans -- speaking of NOCCA earlier, that is an institution that has produced musicians like Winton Marsalis, all the Marsalis kids actually are NOCCA graduates, Harry Connick Jr., the list goes on and on and on and on, are all products of this educational institution which is well-funded by WWOZ radio, which is, in turn, funded by profits from the New Orleans JazzFest which, believe it or not, generates significant monies there, all of which are ploughed back into the community in a myriad of ways.

11161 I would like to see something similar happening in Vancouver. I work as a substitute teacher in District 39, which is Vancouver school district, so I am in all of these schools. Some of them have great music programs, some of them it is two guitars and a set of bongos in the corner of the gym.

11162 Those two kids who were just up here earlier from VanTech, I was over there two weeks ago. That is a good music program because of Rod Van Dorn and Glen David who work tirelessly, and also support from the community, parents action committees who put money into that system. But it is a tough, tough slog.

11163 And a lot of these folks are retiring soon, the great music program directors in the school system in this city, and I don't think there is really a big line forming of young people coming to take their place who are willing to work for peanuts, on-and-off timetable and virtually no support from the culture that we live in which views the bottom line as all-important.

11164 I think CHUM -- the issue of local ownership, we were talking about that. I think that is largely -- it may be valid as a political issue in terms of the nuts and bolts of supporting music in this town. I think it is a non-issue. I think CHUM has been in this town for 29 years in one form or another. As I said earlier, Bravo! was doing a better job, in my opinion, of supporting local jazz in Vancouver than any of the local television stations. So I don't think that is an issue.

11165 The time I have spent with the CHUM people has been very valuable. There have been a lot of connections made. It turns out that I was aware of Duff Roman years and years and years ago by reputation. The committee that I am sitting before right now is a product of those days, the Juno days, the birth of the CRTC. It is kind of a strange sense of déjà vu to hear people come here today and talk about "Well, you know, Canadian hip hop acts aren't being heard, it is all American." Where have we heard this before?

11166 But I do think that education has been shorted. I think that is what we need to be talking about. I think if that is fertile soil and it is developed and people are putting money and effort and time into it that the rest will take care of itself.

11167 I mean, yes, I think there are some issues that need to be addressed in terms of getting artists heard. I personally think that CHUM is addressing them.

11168 I don't want to disparage anybody else's submission. I am not here to slag people, I am just telling you how I feel, the way it looks from my end, and I have worked in every capacity in this town. I mean, I talked to Drew out there, 25 years of playing in R&B bands and jazz bands, funk bands, pit orchestras, my own jazz projects now the last few years, so I think both as a performer and an educator I am in a unique position to see all sides of this picture, not just the performer's side or the music consumer's side or any of these other more localized views.

11169 It seems to me that CHUM's proposal is the one that gives us the best shot at maximizing the potential that is here in this town. You know, people say sometimes that Vancouver doesn't really deserve the artistic scene that it has, and I think -- tough as it is to say, I think there is some truth in that. I think it is asking a lot of people to spend the most productive years of their career in a place that often doesn't appreciate them.

11170 Those of us who choose to stay, we always stay because we hope it is going to get better. I don't think it is going to get better until we get some solid corporation support behind the people who are doing such great work here, and I think CHUM is willing to do that.

11171 I have some reservations about smooth jazz formats. I have colleagues in the jazz community who have expressed those reservations to me when I told them I was coming here today. But I understand the market realities of major market commercial radio. I understand that the all Charles Mingus station is not likely to happen in this context, but I think that CHUM's people are the best hope we have of realizing Vancouver's potential in this area.

11172 Thank you very much.

11173 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Doheny.

11174 Commissioner Cram.

11175 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you, Mr. Doheny.

11176 MR. DOHENY: Yes, Doheny.

11177 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Doheny.

11178 First, in your capacity as Mr. Hampton could you -- I had asked this, in fact I believe, of the CHUM panel -- what is the Langley Music School Society?

11179 MR. DOHENY: Langley Music School Society is the operational arm of the Langley Music School, which is exactly what it says, it is a music school. It is part of the public school system but it is specifically directed with a focus on the fine arts.

11180 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So it is publicly funded?

11181 MR. DOHENY: Part of it is, yes. To the extent that schools in Vancouver are publicly funded.

11182 I maybe should have -- I don't know how much you know about how funds are allocated to schools, but when you have schools that have great music programs and plenty of money to fund them -- all schools get the same money. It depends on the music director and the parent action committees and the other fundraising arms of those schools to go out and hold casino nights and sell chocolates and all that other stuff in order to raise money for these what are perceived of as frills.

11183 The budget -- there is some wiggle room in terms of what is called flex money from one school to the other, but basically all schools get the same chunk of money in their budget to do with as they will, and even that is not enough to cover the three "Rs" as they say.

11184 So most music departments, certainly music departments that are well-funded, are good music departments. As a sub I am in a unique position to see this, because I go to all the schools in District 39 and without exception the ones where there is really some music happening -- not necessarily west side schools of rich neighbourhoods. It is a mistake, I think, to assume that because a school is in an affluent neighbourhood or in a poor neighbourhood that the music program is going to be crappy there. Some of the best music programs in town are on the east side of the city, but they have supportive parents and parent action committees generating income to fund those programs.

11185 So yes, some of it comes from the government, but a whole lot of it comes from the pockets of the community.

11186 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So then do I understand that the Langley Music School is like a normal high school?

11187 MR. DOHENY: They have a high school curriculum.

11188 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yes. But if a child is particularly talented, or the parent wishes that the child would have that kind of training, they could, perhaps even from Burnaby, send their child to Langley?

11189 MR. DOHENY: It is like a magnet school, if you are familiar with that concept.

11190 COMMISSIONER CRAM: No.

11191 MR. DOHENY: Yes to what you just said basically.

11192 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Tell me, how did you learn your music? How did you start?

11193 MR. DOHENY: Oh, goodness. Well, my Uncle Jim gave me a little three-hole keychain harmonica --

--- Laughter / Rires

11194 MR. DOHENY: -- and after I had driven my parents nuts with that for a while my mother asked if I wanted to play the clarinet and I said sure. So I got a clarinet and I started taking lessons.

11195 I played in the Junior Symphony and the Seattle Youth Orchestra. I was born in Seattle and raised there and moved here later on. I played the Vancouver Junior Symphony up here, as it was called then. It is called the Youth Orchestra now. That is actually where I know Mr. Hampton from originally.

11196 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Because you were talking about a diminishing interest in music in the schools, and although I am 20-plus-something, when I was going to school the rigor of music training in schools were blow in a recorder.

11197 MR. DOHENY: Yes.

11198 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I guess I'm having a problem sort of connecting that with the kind of education you are talking about in the schools that has that kind of hard work that you were talking about in terms of --

11199 MR. DOHENY: Well, I think once again, I mean, this speaks to the issue off all schools being the same. I think, once again, as a Canadian-American, I have dual citizenship, I think this puts me in an interesting position to comment on that.

11200 I noticed in my time in Canada that up until very recently Canadians seem to think that worrying about whether the schools in your neighbourhood are good was an American issue. I don't know, maybe it never was, but it certainly isn't now.

11201 As I go from school to school here in Vancouver, I mean there are some schools which are great schools. There are some schools which are the seventh level of Dante's Inferno. Believe me, that is the longest day you are going to have as a sub is in one of those places.

11202 So I think in terms of music programs, some are great, some are not so great. But an example of what can happen in terms of cuts, in the United States for instance at Dusable(ph) High School in Chicago and Cass Tech(ph) in Detroit, both had absolutely renowned music programs after World War II and there is a lot of -- those are black neighbourhoods by the way. A great many black jazz musicians, Johnny Griffin(ph) came out of these schools, later on a lot of rhythm and blues musicians.

11203 When I worked in R&B bands in America, I would often be the only white guy in the band and if I was playing with a guy who was a really great player it was odds on when I asked him where he went to school it would probably be Cass Tech or Dusable High. Those music programs are gone. They haven't been just diminished, they have been cut. Johnny Griffin went back to take an honourary degree at Dusable, asked to see the band room where he had learned his music and was told that it was now a gymnasium.

11204 That trend is in so many other ways part of a process that is happening in Canada too, a kind of an Americanization obsession with bottom line.

11205 I know a music guy out in Port Coquitlam, Gord Hanbruff(ph) who runs a computer composing course simply to attract money to the more mundane aspects of his music course. He says, "Oh, when you mention computers you get money right away, but if you want to get some bread to replace some broken music stands, it's forget it city. They hand you a wrench and tell you to go to it."

11206 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you, Mr. Doheny and Mr. Hampton.

11207 MR. DOHENY: Thank you and thank you.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

11208 MR. DiTOMASO: Hi there. My name is David DiTomaso.

11209 THE CHAIRPERSON: Could I get you to --

11210 MR. DiTOMASO: Good afternoon, Madam Chair and Commissioners. I have something to give to you.

--- Off microphone / Sans microphone

--- Pause / Pause

11211 MR. DiTOMASO: If I could proceed here.

11212 I am a music teacher. I teach privately and I do group sessions. I go to various schools and various districts, not only just in Vancouver but in the suburbs also, Burnaby, Coquitlam, North Van, Richmond, pretty much anywhere and everywhere in the Lower Mainland, and I do workshops and help band teachers, support band teachers and support the band programs.

11213 I come across a lot of kids and I seem to recruit some of them, and I am out there to try to keep music alive because I have a strong passion for it. I really believe in music and really enjoy it and I enjoy teaching it as well as performing.

11214 So a jazz radio station now -- if you ever get the time to listen to the FM band, I think approximately 95 per cent of it is pop rock right across from end to end. And that's great, I love pop, I love rock and whatever all these other terminologies that they use for today's music. But there is no jazz station.

11215 CHUM here -- I am supporting CHUM because they are applying for a 94.5 smooth jazz station and I believe that we could use a jazz station here in Vancouver because there isn't one.

11216 Why? Well, because it is really going to benefit everyone I think, students, educators, professional musicians. Because when I'm teaching jazz -- my curriculum, I teach all styles of music, and when I get to jazz it is tougher for students to relate to it because there is nothing on the airwaves to hear. So if there was a jazz station I am saying it would be a lot easier to plug in jazz and to teach it.

11217 Therefore, I strongly believe we should have a jazz station at least because we pretty much have everything else but that.

11218 And CHUM's M.Play is a project that I support and believe in because, again, it is something that we desperately need. They are going to support a lot of music programs in the Lower Mainland with funds and support.

11219 Something that I see all the time, I see students coming to me privately, and they are selling me -- you name it, they are salespeople from the age of 9-10 years old, and it really hurts me to see that, that these guys have to sell all this stuff in order to keep their program alive. I'm not talking to buy more equipment, but just to buy sheet music or just to buy or to repair an old, old instrument to keep the music program going.

11220 So I support them and I do my best and I believe that CHUM will -- their project, their proposal here of M.Play is really going to help out students. It is going to help our educators like myself, the parents, and anybody else.

11221 So that is pretty much it. I'm sorry I don't have too much to say. I'm kind of nervous, as you can see.

11222 I will just leave it up to you guys for any questions at this moment.

11223 THE CHAIRPERSON: I think Commissioner Cram will have a question.

11224 She is also one of the nicer people on the panel, so you don't have to be nervous.

--- Laughter / Rires

11225 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you for what you have given us today, Mr. DiTomasino.

11226 MR. DiTOMASO: DiTomaso.

11227 COMMISSIONER CRAM: DiTomaso, I'm sorry.

11228 MR. DiTOMASO: Oh, no problem.

11229 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I have to tell you, pythagoras is wrong, historically at least since pythagoras music and mathematics were considered to be sibling disciplines. That is right on the first page in the middle paragraph, and I am living proof --

11230 THE CHAIRPERSON: She's not so nice.

11231 COMMISSIONER CRAM: -- I am living proof, 63 per cent in math and then I was a musician.

11232 Can you tell me, when you are teaching jazz, what kind of jazz are you teaching? Are you teaching the traditional total improv or are you teaching the more -- what was the word that was used yesterday. I used the word program, but it is more choreographed, I guess, as they call it soft jazz.

11233 MR. DiTOMASO: I teach jazz in general, so we are talking way back from big band right up to modern jazz. It all relates. That's what I teach.

11234 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I myself am a little confused about this M.Play, because do you think it is necessarily to teach jazz or is it just to teach music, music education?

11235 MR. DiTOMASO: I think music -- yes, music in general.

11236 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And I will ask you the same question about rigour, because you teach privately in addition to --

11237 MR. DiTOMASO: Ensemble workshops.

11238 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yes, and doing workshops.

11239 Do you think a professional star musician could be developed only through a school system or would they have to have private lessons on the side and do the scales, like Mr. Doheny was talking about like I did for 15 years of my life?

11240 MR. DiTOMASO: Yes, I believe -- it's a bit of everything, but it pretty much starts there in the schools. That is the foundation. That is the basics. Then from there, yes, they will need some private training, they will need to keep listening to others play and listening to other sources, CDs and tapes and LPs, if they know what that is.

11241 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Did you start your music education in the schools?

11242 MR. DiTOMASO: I couldn't afford it. Well, I'm sorry, in high school are you talking?

11243 COMMISSIONER CRAM: No, just in school.

11244 MR. DiTOMASO: In school.

11245 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Or did you start with private lessons?

11246 MR. DiTOMASO: I started with private lessons and to this day I still study privately with a lot of teachers, a lot of good teachers in the Lower Mainland.

11247 It was very unfortunate when I was young, coming from a big family, and I said to my dad "I want to study music" and he said "Well, do you want to study music or do you want to eat?" So I was very unfortunate.

11248 But I stuck with it and was self-taught for many years, and eventually, just by working and putting money aside, I managed to take some private lessons. I started that 11 years and I'm still going strong with it because it's just you never stop learning. It's an ongoing process. It's fun, it's interesting, overwhelming, but great. It has done a lot for me. I became a teacher out of it.

11249 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you.

11250 Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

11251 MR. DiTOMASO: Thank you.

11252 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Commissioner Cram.

11253 Thank you, Mr. DiTomaso.

11254 MR. DiTOMASO: Thank you.

11255 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for taking the time.

11256 Did I get it right? Good.

11257 Thank you.

11258 MR. DiTOMASO: Thank you.

11259 MS VOGEL: I would like to call the next three intervenors, please, the first being Coastguy Productions, then Savage Media and British Columbia Music Educators' Association.

11260 Would you come forward, please.

--- Pause / Pause

11261 THE CHAIRPERSON: When you are ready.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

11262 MR. LEGAR: Good day. Thank you for having me.

11263 My name is Jerry Legar from Vancouver and I am an independent music producer, publisher, educator and performer. I have been actively involved in the music business for 20 years.

11264 I am involved with all levels of performance, including education and coaching, mainly as a vocal coach with young up-and-comers.

11265 It is very satisfying to be part of talent development, as these last two fellows were talking about. I believe it is a very important aspect of personal development and discipline which is needed for all areas of one's life.

11266 When I see that an individual or organization is making a concerted effort to assist in the development of music talent, I take serious notice. The M.Play program is proposing an ideal way to nurture early development of young talent and help with the guidance of careers in music, perhaps leading to the brass ring, being recording deals and, most importantly, airplay.

11267 I also really like the idea -- or love the idea of a smooth jazz channel in Vancouver, not only because my music falls into that category and it is the type of music that can quite oftentimes fall between the cracks.

11268 But I know from experience in Los Angeles and San Francisco that this kind of music on the radio is immensely popular, in the office, on the drive and at home-sweet-home.

11269 QM locally has been playing this type of music on some of their shows for many years.

11270 I have a lot of faith in the CHUM group's record and proposals and fully endorse their application for a smooth jazz channel.

11271 I appreciate the opportunity to address this panel.

11272 Thank you.

11273 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Legar.

11274 Commissioner Cram.

11275 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you, Mr. Legar.

11276 Given your experience, 20 years, producer, publisher, educator and performer, what would you say is the most important in order for somebody to get the brass ring?

11277 I will give you a choice: Is it getting a CD burned, or sort of produced? Is it distributing CDs? Is it airplay? What is the most pivotal thing?

11278 MR. LEGAR: It is probably the foundation where people come from. It has to come from somewhere of course and our music teachers -- I think every music teacher teaches that you have to crawl, walk and run in that order. So the fundamentals, the basics and the inspiration that comes at an early age as well, too.

11279 You can all understand, it is a certain type of person that takes on that vocation. So that comes from inspiration.

11280 I know in Diana Krall's case -- I know Diana -- she was inspired by her teachers. Maybe she lucked into it, I don't know. She was given a talent, but she was also given the right environment.

11281 So it is all the things you mentioned, eventually, but it is the inspiration of certain people around you and certain guidance that happens.

11282 COMMISSIONER CRAM: But there is also a "but for".

11283 MR. LEGAR: There is what?

11284 COMMISSIONER CRAM: "But for". What I call a "but for test". "But for" airplay Diana Krall wouldn't have been anywhere.

11285 MR. LEGAR: Absolutely. She tickled their ears, you know, and it was timely. It was the type of music that certain stations took a chance to promote and play.

11286 The world loves that music nowadays. Us jazz musicians have been playing it for many years, but nowadays it is just really popular, even with just very young people. A lot of the young gals that I coach vocally, they are all into Diana Krall. Nineteen years old, they know all the songs. I mean, they know more songs than I do.

11287 So they are inspired and they probably have a chance to do something with their music, I would think.

11288 So early inspiration, opportunity. It all costs money as well. I think that is something that has been brought up.

11289 COMMISSIONER CRAM: You were here this afternoon, were you --

11290 MR. LEGAR: Yes, for the most part of it.

11291 COMMISSIONER CRAM: -- listening to the people about urban music and saying at the local level they are relatively successful and doing quite well, but they need a radio voice.

11292 Would you say that is the same for jazz musicians here?

11293 MR. LEGAR: Absolutely. Because Canada, I mean we have a limited population and limited access to the radio, and jazz -- this goes for smooth jazz as well, too. I actually am one of those people who puts them all in the same area because smooth jazz is good jazz to me. I mean what smooth jazz and jazz is to different people means different things, but smooth is probably more accessible and softer, I guess. It's not like Mingus radio, like that fellow was saying, Charlie Mingus.

11294 But absolutely the voice -- it has been proven that it works and it is demanded by an audience, but it is also demanded by where the music comes from and that is the creators of the music. Hopefully original as well to a large degree.

11295 COMMISSIONER CRAM: The improv you mean, the kind of the end of the spectrum into traditional kind of in terms of originality and that sort of thing.

11296 MR. LEGAR: Right. You know, not just standards. A lot of people here, like a lot of the musicians here are composers so their music is going to be heard on these formats.

11297 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you, Mr. Legar.

11298 MR. LEGAR: Thank you.

11299 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Madam Chair.

11300 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

11301 Savage Media. Mr. Gray.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

11302 MR. GRAY: Thank you.

11303 Hello, Commissioners and Madam Chair. My name is Nelson Gray and I was a co-founder of JumpStart Performance Society and am currently -- the artistic director of that organization and I am currently the artistic director of Savage Media.

11304 Both JumpStart and Savage Media are non-profit societies with a mandate to support and produce original locally produced, conceived, written works of interdisciplinary work for the performing arts.

11305 So I have had the opportunity to work with a lot of different composers and musicians in putting together the work that has toured and been produced locally and nationally and internationally. So that is where I'm coming from.

11306 I have been doing this for a while so my involvement with the cultural life of Vancouver is pretty substantial.

11307 I have -- well, I have actually been involved in just about every aspect of the arts in Vancouver. I have been active as a writer, director and producer of original plays, radio drama and dance theatre works that have, as I said, been produced for local, national and international audiences. I have friends, colleagues and associates in virtually every aspect of the city's cultural life. So I'm fortunate in that way, in writing and publishing, in dance, in theatre, in film music and opera.

11308 As one representative of our city's cultural life, I wanted to speak specifically about CHUM radio's support of local artistic talent. My primary experience is with their ArtsFact Foundation.

11309 Not a lot of local businesses have supported Vancouver artists. They haven't been that forthcoming. It is starting to change, but nearly a decade ago CHUM radio came up with this wonderful idea and it was called the ArtsFact Foundation. Now, ArtsFact was established to support the work of local professional artists in a way that, to my mind, is really important because it supports the local artists in a way that is responsive to artists needs, and I think that is really an important ingredient for success.

11310 Now, how did they do that? The difference is that what they did was they didn't, as a corporation, go to artists and say "What can you do as artists that can promote us as a corporation?" Instead what they did was they set up a foundation and they then let a jury of artistic peers assess the artists and the artistic projects.

11311 So what I'm trying to get across here is that this model provides for local support of local artists and provides for local evaluation and assessment of those artists, and I support that.

11312 What has come of that I think has been really important. I am aware of the fact that there have been, over the years -- and it has been -- well, over the years now there have been many, many productions that the ArtsFact Foundation has provided seed funding for, and these locally produced -- many of these locally produced performances have gone on to appear in national and international contexts and have established successes for themselves.

11313 So that is an indication of what can happen when a business can provide some initial seed money, seed funding for projects.

11314 The other thing that they provided is scholarship funds for artists so that when they get to a certain place in their career -- after producing and producing and producing, artists get to a point where they get burned out. They get on this wheel of producing work and they just have to keep on putting it out, keep on putting it out, keep on putting it out. Scholarships provide for training and development at mid-points in their careers, at transitional points in their careers so they can go on to produce even greater successes. ArtsFact has also provided a lot of scholarship opportunities.

11315 So what I see as CHUM radio's current M.Play proposal is yet another example to me of this organization's commitment to the development of arts and culture in this country and I applaud that. I think it should be celebrated.

11316 It is for that reason that I support the application by CHUM radio.

11317 Thank you very much.

11318 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Gray.

11319 Commissioner Cram.

11320 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you, Mr. Gray.

11321 Savage Media you say is a non-profit organization. How long have they been around? You said in '82 in your letter intervention.

11322 What is the source of their funding?

11323 MR. GRAY: Oh, okay, so you want --

11324 Well, the deal was that I was the co-director and co-founder of JumpStart and because it was an interdisciplinary company and the Canada Council didn't have an interdisciplinary section at that time we were funded by the dance section.

11325 So what happened was, when my co-director and I decided to go our separate ways, because she was the choreographer in the company the funding went to her.

11326 As a result of that, what happened was I had to start again. So when I started again I had to do what I did when we had started JumpStart, and that is you just -- you just do whatever you can do to get funding. You just try to get -- you do productions yourself, you make do with whatever you can.

11327 What happened with Savage Media was we began to -- we were interested in work that was interdisciplinary. And what sparked the core for the first work that we did was -- or the first exploration, series of explorations that we did was A Robin's Song. What came out of that was an environmental arts practice, an environmental arts project, a hybrid project that now has turned out to be on the cutting edge of work that is now being produced across the country and across the world.

11328 So this year, for example, we were in Lancaster, England at an international arts festival that was focusing on ecology and performance and I performed seven monologues there.

11329 Where do we get our funding? We get our funding from the Canada Council, from the B.C. Arts Council, from the Vancouver City, we get our funding from environmental organizations, Environment Canada, we get it from foundations, The Friends of the Environment Foundation, and we are now in a position, after digging up from the bottom again, where we can apply for operating funds from the Canada Council this year. So that is where we are at.

11330 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So was the intention all along to be non-profit or was there a hope that you would make a profit but you have ended up non-profitable? Was the intention initially to be non-profit the whole way? And please don't --

11331 MR. GRAY: I'm sure you are familiar with every arts organization in the country and the fact that the way they ask you to set up the organization is as a non-profit society, and if you don't set it up that way you can't even get started as a company. This is basically the situation that is set up across the country.

11332 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I hear you.

11333 MR. GRAY: So I don't really understand the question. Maybe you could rephrase it.

11334 COMMISSIONER CRAM: No, I understand you now.

11335 Can you give me an example, because I don't understand "interdisciplinary arts". Can you give me an example of a project? Like maybe go further into the environmental one that you were --

11336 MR. GRAY: Sure, okay. We do something called the Dawn Chorus Celebrations, and what we do there is we try to make -- you see, what happens in our culture, and this happens in government, is you get these set -- everything gets divided into these separate boxes.

11337 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Categorized.

11338 MR. GRAY: Categorized, yes. So what happens is, you get the environmentalists over here, right, doing their environmental work, and then you get the artists over here doing their art work, as if the arts has nothing to do with the environment and the environment has nothing to do with the arts. Then you get health over here, as if health has nothing to do with the arts, and so on. And everyone gets divided into these little categories and no one talks to one another. And it's not like we are living in a whole -- in an integrated society any more, we live in these little boxes.

11339 So what we have been trying to do is make links, okay. So what we do is we go over, we cross the road over and talk to some environmentalists and talk to some scientists, right, and they say "My God, we have been wanting to get out of our box for a long time. We would love to do something with artists."

11340 So then projects start to happen, hybrid projects start to happen. That is why that project in -- that is why that conference in Lancaster came about, was because the Department of Theatre and the Centre for Environmental Studies got together to produce Ecology and Performance, which was an academic conference and it was also an international festival.

11341 Okay. So what kinds of things happen when we do that?

11342 What happens is you get -- we have done something called The Dawn Chorus Celebration. What the Dawn Chorus is is a situation where you get -- we set up six or seven sites in the city where people go out and listen to birdsong, where there are birders there who teach people about reconnecting to the city through birdsong. At the same time, we also commission composers to write music based on birdsong. At the same time the next year we ask a composer because -- let me slow down.

11343 So what happens the first year was we celebrated the international Dawn Chorus in Vancouver in this way: We had people turn out to listen to birdsongs, and then we had them come back to the Roundhouse Community Centre where we had professional vocalists like DB Boyko; Christine Duncan -- she is a jazz singer, great jazz singer now in Toronto -- Veda Hille, she calls herself an art rock diva; and Bessie Wop(ph) and Sandy Scoffield(ph), a Métis singer who has been making some good waves lately in the music business. All these people were singing five different compositions by five different composers based on birdsong.

11344 What you do -- what happens then is the audience isn't the same audience that comes dressed up, goes to the theatre clubs and goes home. What you get is you get a group of birders who are suddenly exposed to the arts and you get a whole group of people who have come out to hear these artists that are exposed to this other connection.

11345 Then something has to happen. I don't want to go on -- I'm going to go onto a long tirade here and I will have to resist that, but the arts have been marginalized in our time. They have been marginalized in the 20th Century. It is time for the artists to come back into community.

11346 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you, Mr. Gray.

11347 Madam Chair.

11348 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Gray.

11349 Now we are on to the B.C. Music Educators' Association.

11350 I don't think you are Allan Anderson.

11351 MS OTTENS: No, I'm sorry, I'm not Allan Anderson.

11352 THE CHAIRPERSON: Don't apologize.

--- Laughter / Rires

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

11353 MS OTTENS: My name is Glenda Ottens, O-T-T-E-N-S.

11354 THE CHAIRPERSON: Welcome.

11355 MS OTTENS: BCMEA was very excited to receive the information on CHUM's programs and initiatives and incentive programs particularly pertaining to the M.Play program.

11356 We have discussed this at length with CHUM directors and really appreciate that finally there has come an organization that is going outside of the box, doing research of how they can regenerate some of our local talent, which will hopefully increase the wealth and health of our future music industry for all.

11357 This company has come up with research that supports the research that as music educators we try to advocate every year, in that exposing children of all ages to music education enhances us, not just musically by far, but as human beings as a whole.

11358 There are many lawyers, doctors and other professions out there that have been involved in music education in some form and have benefitted from it. Music is a physical biological effect on you and that really is the basis for making music an asset to our curriculums that we implement in our schools.

11359 I think that is very underestimated. Every year we find ourselves fighting for our positions as educators in this province. Every year we are always going to our administrators and other sources and trying to get funding, exactly the things that have been said.

11360 Equipment needs. I mean, if you have a broken stand, well, it costs $45, but it is $45 that you don't have. Kids are playing on instruments that are over 50 years old and it makes it difficult for even them to become successful because a silly instrument is at such a state of disrepair.

11361 I work in a middle school in the Coquitlam District. I am also Coquitlam District Educators' Association Co-Chair. Coquitlam District is the third largest district in the Lower Mainland and we also see our programs being cut. In the last year the cutbacks have affected us deeply in that we have lost most of our elementary school programs or that the time has not only been reduced to like one hour a week, but that non-specialists are also teaching these kids.

11362 The kids are -- the opportunities for these kids to even have a decent music education is being taken away. And for something that scientific research has developed a more strong case towards the benefits of music, I see it really sad that we are actually taking this opportunity away.

11363 So when CHUM came to BCMEA and set forth their ideas, it was exciting that -- you know, we all kind of breathed a sigh of relief that somebody out there was looking out for what we are going to produce in the future.

11364 So the products of M.Play don't necessarily contribute monies to all the schools, but within a symposium and learning how to allocate the monies fairly, within the Lower Mainland in particular, it will enhance our programs. It will provide students with many opportunities from K-to-12 program.

11365 It is something that is very unique, not only unique in the way of approaching music educators in a province, but also unique in addressing children from the K-to-12 spectrum.

11366 It is not just focusing on jazz programs in the secondary level. They have done their homework and they are working together to regenerate, I think is a really good word, the future industry. Not only is it, in a sense, a unique way of marketing the future for them and their product, but they are trying to attract audiences, but it is also -- they have come up with a program that will enlarge the number of students and the number of potential artists that can actually soar.

11367 They will contribute to a soaring artist domain, and I think that is what makes it so exciting. We are not just talking about a particular student who has a parent who might have a little bit of extra money to put them into private lessons. A lot of times there aren't community groups or private lessons cannot be an issue or purchasing an instrument cannot be an issue. So that is why reaching out to the schools we can address a more broad audience.

11368 Learning how to play jazz, you have to have a basis of music education already in place. So as it develops into the higher levels of our schooling, that is where I think the jazz medium will eventually transfer, from the way I understand things are going to work, but it all has to start at the elementary level because all our neuron paths, et cetera, et cetera, are developing at the most rapid rate at that age and if we rob them of that, that is where the complication comes. So that is very dear to my heart.

11369 I am also a music therapist and so I really not only am talking to advocate the benefits of music, but I guess just to give credit to at least this application for being brought forth and to thinking outside the box.

11370 We work in connection with both the private, the public, the post-secondary institutions and a lot of the arts organizations in the Lower Mainland. There are many coalitions, there are many associations that BCMEA in whole are all connected with and we try our best to branch out and reach out and connect and work, not just money but also artists' potential in getting out there and being seen. So we really work well together on that.

11371 Working with Grade 6 to 8, one of my larger classes is 90 kids, and when you have 90 beginners learning how to play musical instruments, by gosh, you really want to have workshops. Because it is very hard for one individual to work with all that beautiful sound, shall we say.

11372 But the expense, you know, when a clinician costs between $100, $200, $300 for one instrument specialist to come and work at the school, it really cuts your opportunities back. The children don't learn as well, et cetera.

11373 I have three rock band kind of wanna-be's in my group, you know. Whether that transforms to jazz, because some of them do play jazz pieces in the school, but the opportunity to enhance that and lead to something in their future is very, very difficult to see. Most of the time these so-called -- you know, the term used to be garage bands, you know, it would be wonderful if we could see more of it happen. And I know it can happen. The talent is abundant and waiting for an outlet.

11374 So I really support -- well, BCMEA, we have talked a lot about this and we really support their application.

11375 Also, in the more professional sense of cutting CD demos, working with professionals, hearing professionals perform, the M.Play program sending out tickets to the educators so that future students and future artists can hear quality music and learn from it is something that is very much used. I know VSO does this, the Vancouver Symphony Orchestra does this with the university students that they teach, because many of the VSO players teach at the universities, and it is -- I don't know -- as the commercial says: Priceless.

11376 I think cutting CDs and working with producers and recording will also help the more technical side and getting exposure of how things are done in the more professional realms.

11377 I guess my last comment is kind of an -- I guess another thing that I can see arising from this and the program, and if it becomes active in the schools in the way that has been proposed, I can actually see it strengthening our Canadian identity.

11378 We are promoting artists. Not only do they work in a national sense, but through BCMEA and in our schools we have a lot of international contacts, and I think the Canadian identity and what the Canadian sound is -- I don't know, the perception is quite weak and I see this really striving to maintain that or to make it stronger.

11379 Thank you.

11380 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

11381 Commissioner Cram.

11382 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you, Ms Ottens.

11383 I was in Calgary and we had an application for a smooth jazz, and I know that music education has raised my intellect by 10 points, or whatever.

11384 What else? You were talking about the scientific research, what else does musical education do for people?

11385 MS OTTENS: It kind of depends on what level. At the younger levels it establishes a lot more kind of a biological benefit, not only moving in rhythmical ways and extending neuron paths in your brain, but also the vibration of sound is where the scientific research is really coming at.

11386 If you, say, play a really high pitch of a glockenspiel or like a jingle bells, it hits a different centre of your brain compared to like a boom box in the car behind you sort of idea. These are all observations that kind of establish some scientific basis. It changes our heart rate, it changes our emotional state, it makes us associate with certain periods of our life, it brings quality of life.

11387 It is something that is often quite unspoken and that is why this scientific research has taken so long to develop, because it has had to delve into the depth of biology rather than the emotional psychology kind of state.

11388 So when we are developing human beings we kind of try to regulate it as far as the rhythm, the melodies, the tone, the vibrations of sound working within the body, not just pure exposure to music. It is not just hearing music or dancing or singing. There is much more going on than that.

11389 At the higher levels it becomes more of a discipline. The co-ordination between your eyes, your hands, your brain, your reading and disciplining yourself, practice, practice, practice, and training your body with all those minute movements and co-ordination is far more complicated than learning how to play basketball. So at the higher levels and as you grow it becomes much more fine-tuned discipline.

11390 COMMISSIONER CRAM: You have in fact sort of fortified my belief that jazz is something you learn after you get the basics in place, and so you have to learn how to count, learn your notes and learn sort of basic rhythms, and it is sort of a higher level, I guess I would call it --

11391 MS OTTENS: Yes.

11392 COMMISSIONER CRAM: -- of education. Because then when you get into improv, true jazz, it is something that a lot of -- it is very difficult to do.

11393 MS OTTENS: Yes.

11394 COMMISSIONER CRAM: No, Mr. Gray? No?

11395 MS OTTENS: Well, not only is it the theoretical things that you have to learn like the note reading, the rhythms, et cetera, et cetera, but you also have to form the muscles in your mouth or your fingers, or what have you, or the span of your hands. I mean, you have to grow to a certain age before you can even reach some of those darn guitar chords.

11396 But, you know, you are developing physically so you have to be able to hit a variety of notes to play jazz, to do rips(ph), to do glissandos, you know, to do riffs, et cetera, you already have to have it. It has to become almost physical within you. So there has to be something where that starts in order to establish a strong sense of getting it out and communicating it to an audience. So yes, you do have to go beyond.

11397 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you.

11398 Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

11399 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

11400 Thank you all very much. We appreciate you have taken the time to join us here today.

11401 Thank you.

11402 MS VOGEL: I would like to call the next three intervenors, Arts Umbrella, Sean Della Vedova and Julie Blue.

11403 For the record, Madam Chair, Arnold Schwisberg will not be able to attend.

11404 THE CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry, who?

11405 MS VOGEL: Arnold Schwisberg.

--- Pause / Pause

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

11406 MS HENRIQUEZ: Good afternoon. My name is Carol Henriquez, I am Executive Director of Arts Umbrella, which is a visual and performing arts centre for young people in Vancouver.

11407 The CHUM radio stations in Vancouver, CFUN and QM/FM have been incredible supporters of the community that they live in. They have been generous in their support of the not-for-profit community.

11408 As an example, Arts Umbrella has personally benefited from the generosity of their corporation, providing the organization with the type of promotions it could never afford, such as supporting our annual fundraising events, a fashion show and a golf tournament.

11409 This important kind of support has made it possible to bring on high profile sponsors and ensure that our events are sold out, ultimately benefiting the children in our community.

11410 When it comes to our programs, CFUN and QM/FM have taken an interest to ensure that our story is told. When it comes to their level of support in the community, the commitment begins at the top. Paul Ski, General Manager, CHUM Vancouver is a huge community supporter, and it obviously carries on throughout the organization. He not only attends all of our events to show his personal support, but I also see him at many, many events throughout our community.

11411 This kind of integrity in action doesn't go unnoticed. For three years he has also stepped up to the plate to act as our master of ceremonies at our annual golf tournament, which raises over $75,000 in net proceeds for Arts Umbrella.

11412 Over 21 years ago I co-founded Arts Umbrella. It began with 45 children and now has over 200 classes a week in the visual and performing arts, dance arts and theatre arts. We have a very large -- we reach over 30,000 children a year. We have a very, very large outreach program that goes into intercity schools of the Lower Mainland. Through that we reach about 15,000 children, and that is in visual arts and the theatre arts.

11413 It is our commitment to make the arts accessible for all children as much as we are able within our organization and we are huge supporters of this type of commitment that CHUM has taken on in the field of music.

11414 Last year I was very honoured to receive the Order of Canada for my work with this wonderful organization and I remain committed to ensure that its goals and mandate are met.

11415 I have lived in Vancouver for over 30 years and I would like to personally endorse CHUM radio's bid for a new radio station with a smooth jazz format. I am a person who comes into contact with an awful lot of people in any given day and it is my opinion that this format would be a welcome and successful addition to Vancouver's radio community. Vancouver is a dynamic part of the west coast scene, and with that in mind I feel that this specific format would be a natural fit, featuring local and international jazz artists such as our own renowned Diana Krall.

11416 I am also heartened to know that along with this exciting bid CHUM will be incorporating a mandate to support young musical talent called M.Play. I know all too well of nurturing children and youth and how important it is for their development and for the development of culture in our company.

11417 As a public and private citizen I would like to endorse the CHUM group for all that they do to make this community a better place and to endorse their bid for what I believe is an exciting new option for radio entertainment in Vancouver.

11418 Thank you.

11419 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Henriquez.

11420 Commissioner Pennefather.

11421 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you, Madam Chair.

11422 Good afternoon. I wanted just to pursue your comment on M.Play which you just mentioned and you mentioned in your written intervention.

11423 With your experience over all these years in terms of children in the performing arts, what is it about the M.Play proposal that works for you in terms of the teaching of children and why do you think it is an important initiative?

11424 MS HENRIQUEZ: It's almost hard to know where to begin.

11425 For many years the arts have been cut back, especially within our elementary school system. There have been huge cutbacks that have affected the schools very seriously where there are very few arts specialists within the system and with M.Play putting funds directly into the schools, I think this is a really positive force in reaching children and the accessibility for all children to have the opportunity that belongs to them. That is their birthright within our country.

11426 It is those things that I think that are so important. One, that is that it will be accessible to children, being in the school system. It is important for their development, as we heard the woman previous to me speak very extensively about that.

11427 And ultimately it is also very much about the protection of culture in our country. If we do not educate our young people in the arts and they do not grow up appreciating them and having a firsthand experience in them, we can talk until we are crazy about putting bums in seats, but they will grow up not being there for the arts.

11428 But these young people will be the artists of tomorrow, they will be the supporters of the arts and, hopefully, the philanthropists which we also need in our community.

11429 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Taking it forward, then, what benefit do you see such a program having for local artists?

11430 MS HENRIQUEZ: I understand that -- that isn't the area that I really researched thoroughly myself, but I understand that there is going to be opportunity for them, performance opportunities and hopefully opportunities to produce certain new works and things like that.

11431 My big area of concern is in the development of young people.

11432 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: I saw the connection in what you were saying in writing in terms of the performing arts, if there is a connection.

11433 MS HENRIQUEZ: Yes, there is.

11434 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: There will be performers at some point.

11435 MS HENRIQUEZ: Yes, we will definitely be performers.

11436 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you very much.

11437 MS HENRIQUEZ: You are very welcome.

11438 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you, Madam Chair.

11439 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Henriquez.

11440 Next.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

11441 MS BLUE: My name is Julie Blue. Good afternoon.

11442 I feel honoured to be asked to give voice today and I think that is the first thing that I want to say, is as a professional artist I think I bring the voice to the question that was asked of Carol.

11443 The first thing is being asked to give a voice to the format of a radio station, to what local artists might want or need in the way of support.

11444 How I was first introduced to QM/FM is I met a fellow named John Bowden and he heard one of my CDs and he said "You know, I can play that on my Night Moves." As a local artist I have produced four CDs and I can tell you, it is one thing to produce the CD and to have had the training to do it, and to do what you need to do to get the funding to do it and to do what you need to do to keep the support around you just to keep on doing it, and then it is a whole other thing to get the distribution and get the playing.

11445 The radio play is significant to an artist such as myself, and from him playing -- he has played two of my CDs, had a lot of people hear them who wouldn't have heard them otherwise.

11446 Just a bit of my background is that I have been playing music since I was a child. I just started, you know, I came in as a musician and then through my family and through the school system was encouraged to play. I play piano and keyboards and I played flute in the high school jazz band.

11447 At 15 I knew very clearly that I wanted to be a jazz musician so I started to study with someone locally. I grew up in Calgary. I then toured with groups and moved to Vancouver and went to Cap College and I have lived her ever since and over the years have come into contact with many, many different artists.

11448 So one of the first points that I want to make is there is such a rich local scene of talent here. It is extraordinary how much talent there is here. I think that many, many artists, since they have been developing their musical chops could certainly use a bit of a support in the arena of developing their business chops and how do I get my music out to the world. I can think of many, many fine artists who I would love to see have the opportunity to have some of their music in a jazz format played.

11449 About 12 years ago I started something called Singsperation and it has taken lots of different formats. Primarily the mandate of Singsperation as a business is to create environments where anybody can make their music, where it is not just something that you have to sound like Whitney Houston to be able to sing, you know.

11450 So at this point the forms that Singsperation takes is, I direct a 50-voice gospel choir, and anybody can sing in it. While there are some really great singers who have been professionals, there are people who haven't sung before.

11451 What happens out of people joining to sing is the most supportive, full of life kind of communities happen. We produce big concerts, we play at St. Andrews Wesley Church.

11452 People start singing in their life, and when they start singing their kids start singing and I think that really ties in with one of my big, huge passions which, as Carol was saying, music is our birthright and anything that promotes encouraging children to make music and encouraging their parents and people of all levels to stay in touch with that part of our culture to me is what keeps us vibrant and growing and listening as humans.

11453 The other part of the Singsperation business is that I facilitate a more professional level songwriting performance course. That has been going on for about four years or so. Out of that I get a chance to work with some really talented songwriters. So I am in a position to kind of mentor them and get them up on stage performing each week, produce coffee houses, concerts for them to perform.

11454 And I think one of the things that excites me about the CHUM application, and specifically M.Play, I would like to talk about what I understand some of the incentives to be for the professional artist or for the developing to be a professional artist is.

11455 As an artist can you get your music played if you are not signed up with one of the major labels? Which happens to very, very few people.

11456 I like the idea that -- I was asking some specific questions beforehand, okay, so: As a professional artist what could you do for me -- so I would be able to sit in front of you and talk with some understanding about it -- and here is what I understand.

11457 I understand that for myself or for someone else that I am mentoring or someone else in the community what is being offered would be a chance to have a concert promoted where the incentive would provide the sale of the tickets, the rental of a space. And as an artist, to have someone else be willing to come in and create that kind of a supportive environment for you is invaluable. So that would be thumbs up.

11458 The other thing I am understanding as part of a mentoring situation is that there would be a committee who would review a submission of CDs or tapes and be able to say, you know, "This is very good, but to be able to fit into this format perhaps you could add strings, or we could speed it up a little bit, or you need some work with this".

11459 Again, as a musician who is largely of my own legwork, though I have definitely gotten grants and funding, have produced CDs, it would have been invaluable at an earlier stage in my career had someone sat me down and said "Okay, for it to fit in a format you need this and you need that, and perhaps you might like to think about the through line of this CD if it is actually going to be marketed."

11460 Just basic business kind of chops that a professional musician -- since we focus so much on, as we were talking about before, learning those scales and all the things you need to do to be an artist and a musician.

11461 I think anything that would create an integration for communication from a radio aspect, a business aspect, back to the artist would be totally life-giving and supportive.

11462 Currently what I do, I am working on a new CD so it just would be golden to have someone to be able to give me input on some preproduction tracks before I go to the time and expense to press it, to say, you know "This is viable, this perhaps isn't." That would be invaluable feedback as an artist.

11463 I also run a recording studio and I write music for film and television, so for me, my training is as a jazz musician and I really endorse that in Vancouver a smooth jazz format I think would be a seller, I think people would listen to.

11464 What I like about that format is it creates an open door for a number of different fusion styles to be played as well. It is not just traditional swing music. I mean, they were talking to me about people like Sting, Sade. That would include my kind of music, which isn't necessarily top 40, doesn't fit into that box, but is still valuable, viable music that really begs to have listeners to it.

11465 I guess I would just close again to speak to the community of artists that is in Vancouver and how rich the community is and how much talent there is here, from both the perspective of being a professional artist, having played keyboards and sung with lots of people, and also as one who is mentoring others. I think to have an outlet that provides you with that ray of hope that says: Okay. Well, here are some possibilities locally to really be appreciated for what I do.

11466 I know several different artists who have had to go off to Europe to be able to find a place to make a name and be supported and I think Vancouver is such a glorious, beautiful place that it would be wonderful to create the kind of cultural environment for that to happen more and more here.

11467 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Blue.

11468 Commissioner Pennefather.

11469 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you.

11470 I wanted to pursue one comment you made: this community has a very rich pool of talent. I assume you are referring to talent in the jazz format.

11471 If it is so rich, why have we not heard these talented artists before? Why have we not had access to this music before?

11472 MS BLUE: Well, I think that is a really good question. I would prefer to answer it from the point of view from discussion because the truth is, I don't know.

11473 I am not speaking just specifically from a jazz format. I want to go back to a lot of what has been said about the music in education and in schools. Clearly it all starts there and then bringing to a point of the working musician, working locally. There are a lot of people who are working in clubs, coffee houses, lounges, doing some concerts, self-promoted concerts.

11474 I can think of several people of world-class talent who you might not have heard of, people might not have heard of because they haven't had the chance to have the exposure. You have never heard my music, I'm sure, and you should.

--- Laughter / Rires

11475 MS BLUE: How are you going to hear it? I do have distribution on my music and it is selling in Taiwan and in Saigon and all kinds of places, but locally I produce concerts, sometimes I do things with other people, but I don't know if this is the same for other artists, but it is a bit of a tough go at it. You know, as an artist I need to do a lot of things to keep my balls in the air. I teach privately, I teach these courses.

11476 Mainly -- I think mainly it is about exposure and opportunity. Because I did notice that on Night Moves when some cuts from my CD was playing, I got a lot of response from that. People heard it. So I think from the voice of a local artist who is really -- I mean, this has been my life's work and I have a huge passion for it and I know many, many others who feel the same, that it's really about the chance to have some exposure, to bring what you love and what you are passionate about to a wider listening audience.

11477 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: So, bottom line, it's all about airplay, is it?

11478 MS BLUE: I think airplay is a big part of it. Like I love the idea of being able to create these concerts, so you have -- you play the music on the air, people hear it, they like it, and then it brings it into the realm of community. You actually unplug people from their computers for a few minutes and they go out and sit beside each other.

11479 And what I love most dearly about music, and perhaps that's why I play in the gospel realm, is there is something about music that connects us together essentially as human beings. For me, if we were to get to a point where people didn't leave their houses to go out and celebrate that and be together, we would have lost something essential to us as humans.

11480 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you.

11481 Thank you, Madam Chair.

11482 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Commissioner.

11483 Now Sean Della Vedova.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

11484 MR. DELLA VEDOVA: That's correct.

11485 When I was a young boy I can remember my cousin and I spending hours and hours practising our radio voices. She went into broadcasting and I didn't, and maybe I am better off for that. I think I am because I went into the arts -- not meaning to insult people in the radio business. That is a great start.

--- Laughter / Rires

11486 MR. DELLA VEDOVA: Yes. Oh, it gets better.

11487 So my involvement in the arts basically consisted of performing in concert bands as a young boy. And I eventually went to the University of British Columbia where I studied percussion and eventually studied voice and, upon graduating, went into music education.

11488 Like most educators, I got out into the system and I was actually really quite bowled over by how positive the educational system was, in my opinion. Huge numbers of kids that were interested in the arts.

11489 I worked at an intercity school. Fifty per cent of our kids lived below the poverty line. We participated in a regional festival and the students performed very well and we were invited to a national festival. Small curve ball, $53 per student to enter the festival. I had 95 students. So what I did was, I picked up the phone and tried to wrangle a little bit of corporate support and I was able to do so.

11490 What happened was, we went to the UBC Chan Centre for the Performing Arts. The students performed beautifully. And I think they had one of the most significant musical moments of their young lives to that point. They got a gold medal, which was kind of icing on the cake, but I think for intercity youth performing at the University of British Columbia, that was a significant event.

11491 That only happened because of corporate involvement, because of social conscience and because of wanting to actively get involved in education rather than providing sort of a backdrop musically to their lives.

11492 Since then, I now conduct a boys choir and a youth choir and I still conduct in the school system. And I usually do between 45 and 50-something concerts between September and June, so it is a busy life, but it's a great life.

11493 I think the CHUM proposal is interesting from a couple of perspectives. One, because I think jazz is missing in terms of radio formats that are out there.

11494 It was great hearing youth coming forward and speaking about some of their needs and some of their issues. I know when I was a young boy Judas Priest was really high on my hit list. I loved Judas Priest. I loved Judas Priest because you couldn't hear them on the radio. That's the whole point. I didn't want everybody else to hear it.

11495 I think I see a lot of that, because I also teach humanities so I work with Grade 8 students out of the musical context, and they in fact really like music that not everybody is exposed to. They like to kind of find their own bands and find something that they can identify with.

11496 So although I think the "urban" music is interesting and it's hot and kids like it, and I in fact sit down and listen to it with them, I think there are other venues such as the Internet where they can really find the format that speaks to them.

11497 The second thing that is exciting about the proposal is M.Play. I think the programming will reach youth. I believe that currently we have a system where students are often listening to music, but it is not active listening. I think the fact that they are looking at doing a whole bunch of things, that I am going to get into in a second, will actually force students to actively get involved in music education.

11498 One thing would be sponsoring festivals. Much as I am tempted to take a young group of students to the du Maurier Jazz Festival, philosophically it has never quite worked out with me. The venues, as much as I have wanted to take them to the Commodore Ballroom on a Friday night, there have been some issues in taking Grade 8 students to the Commodore Ballroom.

11499 That being said, I think we could create a new festival format that really does open up the door for youth and does get them involved. We already have some great festivals here that are sponsored in the city. We have great jazz festivals within our own districts, but I think we are certainly ready to have something that marries professional musicians with emerging musicians.

11500 Another thing that I think is exciting is the concept of being able to possibly commission artists. I know I have a concert next year with Dee Daniels, who is a local jazz vocalist, and to me it is exciting that I could possibly look into commissioning a composer to create a piece for that concert. I mean, I think that would be a very intriguing use of the M.Play idea.

11501 I also co-ordinate a music camp and I think once again it is intriguing. I had no idea that CHUM has this history in terms of support of the arts. Needless to say, I am hanging onto the business cards and I'm going to make some phone calls.

11502 A lot of corporate citizens talk that talk, and I'm sure you have heard lots of talk, I'm sure you have heard lots of horn-playing and whistle-blowing, but I think it is significant that they have actually stepped forward and written cheques and, as we heard, actively gotten involved and provided MC services and a host of other things.

11503 I think sponsorship or support of Canadian artists is also significant. Diana Krall has been mentioned. Brad Turner was another musician who emerged about the same period of time, and I played with Brad as a young musician.

11504 As much as -- I actually did an anti-CRTC paper one time in university and I have since changed my tune, and here's how --

--- Laughter / Rires

11505 MR. DELLA VEDOVA: You see, I have offended you. Now I'm hoping to --

11506 THE CHAIRPERSON: (Off microphone) here today.

--- Laughter / Rires

11507 MR. DELLA VEDOVA: Yes. He is just going to offend everybody.

11508 But I have changed my tune. I think it was interesting banging around the concept of Canadian content and whether it was a positive or a negative, and after all is said and done I think it is real positive because I have had experience with musicians who have benefitted from getting the airplay.

11509 The question was asked, you know: What is it? Is it airplay? Is it promotion? Is it CDs being burned? It is probably a combination of all of those things, but I think airplay really is significant. One just needs to take a look at all the rich musical artists that are out there in the Canadian musical landscape now, and I think that is evidence of that.

11510 So I think the sponsorship of Canadian artists is really exciting.

11511 We have heard great things about music advocacy. You know that children are 52 per cent more likely to go on to college or university and graduate if they are involved in the arts. You know that their S.A.T. results are 30 per cent higher when they are involved in the arts through the United States, regardless of their socioeconomic background. You have heard all of that.

11512 But I guess -- and this is the subjective part -- as a parent, a father of two, my son sings in my boy's choir; my daughter is 11 months and not quite yet singing, matching, pitching, clapping. As a musician, as someone who has played for -- I have always said 32 years because the second I could crawl I went to a cupboard and started banging on pots and pans; as a conductor who has now conducted internationally and am slowly creating more experiences; and as a teacher, I think music is essential and I think it is core.

11513 I guess, why jazz? What is it about jazz that is significant?

11514 Well, I think learning to improvise within structure is such a great asset and such a wonderful skill to develop. I enjoy structure, I enjoy working within a school and being a department head and doing all those kinds of things, but I also love the improvisation of just creating song, creating musically meaningful moments for children.

11515 So I feel fortunate to be involved in the arts and I feel fortunate to have spoken here today.

11516 I think, as I said before, the CHUM proposal is significant because they walk the walk, they are just not talking the talk. Clearly the precedent has been set.

11517 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Della Vedova.

11518 Commissioner Pennefather.

--- Off microphone / Sans microphone

11519 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you, Madam Chair.

11520 Thank you for your comments.

11521 I wanted to delve into a little more something you said in your experience as a teacher.

11522 What age groups are you teaching again?

11523 MR. DELLA VEDOVA: That is a complicated question. I teach Grade 8. I am at a 6, 7, 8 school. In terms of my two choirs that I conduct, the ages range from 6 to 19.

11524 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Okay. That is why I wanted to know the age groups, because I hear you on teaching music, performing arts, but there are competing applications for this smooth jazz format and I wondered, number one, what you mean by jazz and why you say kids are interested in jazz.

11525 MR. DELLA VEDOVA: Okay.

11526 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: And that is the age group that you are talking about.

11527 MR. DELLA VEDOVA: Yes.

11528 Jazz is one of those terms that kind of gets chucked out there and I will give you a concrete example of how jazz can be brought into the lives of a 6-year-old.

11529 Tomorrow night I go to a dress rehearsal at the Chandos Pattison Auditorium, which is out in Surrey, British Columbia. We are performing a concert there on Saturday. One of the pieces we are doing is entitled Me and My Drum, it's by Vince Guaraldi. It was in the Charlie Brown Christmas Special.

11530 That is really a piece of jazz that was composed for a trio. And you might think: Well, gee, it wasn't scored for a boy's choir. No, it wasn't, but it is great piece to perform with boys. There is one concrete example of how jazz can be fit into other genres and other contexts.

11531 My definition of jazz would include that type of music where basically we are taking a piano transcription and adding voice, but jazz would also include, from my experience, which is playing standards and being exposed to that type of thing.

11532 I think smooth jazz in some ways, I guess, is almost maybe a little bit like the Z95 format where children are exposed to one type of hip hop music but there are more extreme examples of it that are available out there. So I think smooth jazz could be construed as jazz standards, if you like, which would include the music of Diana Krall and other artists, and from that students might get into Charles Mingus or they might get into slightly wilder and crazier acts.

11533 But I think it could potentially be a bit of an intro or a bit of a conduit into the world of jazz.

11534 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Okay. One last question.

11535 As a teacher of music, not as a musician -- although I'm sure you are going to answer from both sides -- radio itself. You have mentioned Internet and the fact that kids are probably listening a lot to the music and selecting the music they want through the Internet.

11536 What is the impact of radio on your teaching?

11537 MR. DELLA VEDOVA: Huge. We have listened to four or five news broadcasts during the past few weeks, listening to the CBC, listening to other local stations. Kids are very interested in the news. My classes could probably tell you more about the election than maybe we had time to sit down and read about or listen to. They are very interested. So they are interested from a current events point of view.

11538 Musically speaking, I am surprised. Once again I see a wide range of listening tastes. I don't see them all congregating toward hip hop, I don't see them all congregating toward some of the more hard rock formats. They seem to like variety.

11539 When I was teaching at the more -- I guess I would describe intercity school, they tended to be into more hard core rap or urban music, I suppose, and by and large that music wasn't heard on the radio because, if I'm not mistaken, I think CRTC regulations would probably create about 15 seconds of silence in each one of those pieces of music being played.

11540 While that is not maybe the language that we think --

11541 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: It sounds like us at work.

11542 MR. DELLA VEDOVA: But I think having the -- I think that is a positive in that just like me listening to Judas Priest as a kid, although we don't necessarily condone the violence that is featured in those pieces of music, it is a way of expressing yourself and I suppose dealing with the stresses of life.

11543 So I guess in answer to your question, they are interested in radio. It still is very much alive. And they are interested in all the stations that are currently available and I think jazz would appeal to them. I know that I could feature it as part of my curriculum.

11544 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Okay. Thank you very much.

11545 Madam Chair.

11546 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you all very much. We appreciate that you have taken the time to come and speak with us today.

11547 Thank you.

11548 Madam Secretary, does that conclude our work for today or do we have any more intervenors?

11549 MS VOGEL: That concludes the list that we proposed for today.

11550 THE CHAIRPERSON: So we will all be back here tomorrow morning at nine o'clock.

11551 I'm sorry, Madam Secretary.

--- Pause / Pause

11552 THE CHAIRPERSON: Before everybody leaves, do we have any other intervenors in the room who would like to present today instead of tomorrow?

--- Pause / Pause

11553 THE CHAIRPERSON: No, okay.

11554 Nine o'clock tomorrow morning.

--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1640, to resume

on Thursday, November 30, 2000 at 0900 / L'audience

est ajournée à 1640, pour reprendre le jeudi

30 novembre 2000 à 0900