ARCHIVED -  Transcript - Burnaby, BC - 2000/11/28

Transcripts

In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages

Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be

bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members

and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of

Contents.

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded

verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in

either of the official languages, depending on the language

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.

Transcription

Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues

officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront

bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des

membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience

publique ainsi que la table des matières.

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu

textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée

et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues

officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le

participant à l'audience publique.

APPLICATIONS FOR FM RADIO LICENCES

DEMANDES DE LICENCES DE RADIO FM

Burnaby, B.C. / Burnaby (C.-B.)

--- Upon resuming on Tuesday, November 28, 2000

at 0900 / L'audience reprend le mardi

28 novembre 2000 à 0900

8625 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. We are this morning commencing Phase II of the hearing and we will now hear the applicants intervene against each other.

8626 On Friday afternoon, I made the following remarks, and as many of you weren't here, I said I would repeat them this morning.

8627 Over the course of Phase I we had revisions, both written and oral, to some of the applications. These will be taken under advisement and any party can comment or object in the course of the intervention phase.

8628 Madam Secretary.

8629 MS VOGEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

8630 As Madam Chair said, we are beginning Phase II.

8631 I would like to invite CBC to come forward for their intervention, and a reminder that intervenors have 10 minutes to make their presentation.

8632 THE CHAIRPERSON: And a request that anybody turn off their cell phone if it is on.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

8633 M. DOUCET: Mesdames, messieurs les Conseillers, bonjour.

8634 Avant de débuter, je tiens à mentionner que c'est avec beaucoup d'intérêt que la Société' Radio-Canada a suivi les travaux du Conseil durant la dernière semaine. Cette audience pour l'attribution de la fréquence 94.5 FM a donne' lieu à des échanges intéressants, voire fructueux qui ont permis de bien saisir les demandes qui vous sont présentées.

8635 Radio-Canada est consciente des enjeux importants que soulève cette audience. C'est pourquoi nous nous présentons aujourd'hui devant vous pour intervenir sur un aspect fondamental des présentations qui ont lieu depuis une semaine. Il s'agit de la question du choix des fréquences, sur lesquelles nous devons apporter certain éclairage.

8636 Je suis Denis Doucet, directeur général de l'exploitation à la Radio française. Les représentants de Radio-Canada qui m'assisteront dans cette intervention sont, à ma droite, Madame Suzanne Lamarre, Premier chef de l'ingénierie nationale de Radio-Canada. Madame Lamarre est membre de l'Ordre des ingénieurs du Québec et membre de l'Association of Professional Engineers and Geoscientists of the Province of British Columbia. À ma gauche, Maître Stéphanie Paquette, directrice des affaires réglementaires, et Madame Pierrette Savard, directrice de notre station de Vancouver.

8637 En commençant, nous tenons à remercier le Conseil pour sa préoccupation, bien manifestée tout au long de ses travaux, de trouver une solution qui tient compte des intérêts en jeu, qu'ils soient publics, privés, communautaires ou autres. Radio-Canada souhaite participer de la façon la plus ouverte possible à cet exercice en fournissant au Conseil tous les éléments nécessaires pour décider de la solution optimale pour l'intérêt public.

8638 Plusieurs alternatives ont été proposées jusqu'ici par les requérantes concurrentes dont: l'utilisation d'une fréquence AM soit le 1200 kHz; le 88.1 ou le 88.3 FM diffusé à partir de Vancouver ou de l'Ile Saturna; le 107.1 FM; le 90.1 ou le 92.3 FM.

8639 Notre ingénieure Suzanne Lamarre vous expliquera, à partir des cartes que nous vous avons remises, les tenants et aboutissants de chacune de ces possibilités. J'aimerais toutefois, avant de lui laisser la parole, mentionner que Radio-Canada est ouverte à trouver, avec le Conseil, la solution qui équilibrerait le mieux les différents intérêts en cause. Trois facteurs importants devraient d'après nous être pris en compte dans l'évaluation des différentes demandes.

8640 Premièrement, nous signalons que la majorité des requérants ont déclaré, lors de leur présentation au Conseil, qu'ils accepteraient de diffuser à Vancouver sur une autre fréquence que le 94.5 FM D'après leurs représentations, l'utilisation d'une fréquence FM de moindre puissance n'aurait pas d'impact sur leur plan d'affaires et sur leurs engagements, qu'ils maintiendraient intégralement.

8641 Deuxièmement, la situation est fort différente pour Radio-Canada. Nous avions examiné la plupart des alternatives avancées durant l'audience avant même de soumettre notre demande pour le 94,5 FM Il s'avère que la diffusion de la Chaîne culturelle sur n'importe laquelle des fréquences alternatives proposées aura un impact direct sur notre capacité de rejoindre notre auditoire francophone en Colombie- Britannique et de remplir, sur un horizon de sept ans, notre engagement de desservir 50 pour-cent de la population francophone de Colombie-Britannique.

8642 Finalement, nous trouvons primordial que le Conseil tienne compte du fait que la Première chaîne est diffusée sur la fréquence 97.7 FM depuis plus de trente ans. Nous sommes très soucieux de trouver une solution qui n'aura pas d'impact sur la qualité de notre signal et surtout sur l'auditoire que nous rejoignons présentement.

8643 Je laisse maintenant la parole à Madame Suzanne Lamarre.

8644 Mme LAMARRE: Merci Denis.

8645 Nous vous avons remis deux études de faisabilité. La première, qui a été réalisée par un consultant indépendant, traite de la question spécifique du transfert au AM de la Première chaîne. La deuxième contient une compilation des résultats de nos études techniques sur les alternatives FM incluant une analyse des suggestions supplémentaires qui ont été portées à notre attention la semaine dernière.

8646 En ce qui concerne le transfert possible de la Première chaîne sur une autre fréquence, notre consultant a relevé plusieurs fréquences AM disponibles. II identifie le 540 AM comme la meilleure d'entre elles, et non le 1200 AM tel que proposé pas CHUM Ltée. Tel que vous pouvez le voir sur la carte "A", le pointillé en bleu désigne le contour de jour qui laisse sans service une bonne partie du Sud de Vancouver. La situation est d'autant plus critique la nuit, lorsque la puissance doit être réduite, comme le démontre le pointillé rouge sur la carte. Le contenant noir représente la couverture actuelle de la Première chaîne.

8647 La carte "B" traite de la fréquence 1200 AM. Vous pouvez voir que la couverture de jour est encore plus réduite de même que celle de nuit.

8648 L'hypothèse du 88.1 FM exploité à partir de Saturna Island, telle qu'avancée par Rogers Broadcasting, est démontrée à la carte "C". Sur cette carte, le contour pointillé illustre cette hypothèse. Le contour en traits pleins, le rayonnement actuel encore une fois de la Première chaîne. À cause de sa proximité avec la bande du canal 6 appartenant à CHEK-TV, les règles et procédures d'Industrie Canada exigent que cette fréquence soit exploitée à une puissance réduite qui doit être au moins huit fois plus faible que celle du canal 6. Vous remarquerez qu'à la puissance autorisée le trait pointillé, le centre de Vancouver n'est pas couvert par le contour de 3 mV/m du signal mais seulement par le 0,5 mV/m. En vertu des règles et procédures d'Industrie Canada, une grande ville comme Vancouver ou même Victoria, doit être située dans le contour du 3 mV/m pour que le service soit considéré comme satisfaisant.

8649 Nous portons à votre attention que des localités à forte concentration de francophones comme Maillardville se retrouvent à l'extérieur du contour de 3 mV/m, lorsque diffusées à partir de Saturna Island, et recevraient donc un signal nettement inférieur à ce qu'ils reçoivent présentement avec la Première chaîne.

8650 En transférant la Première chaîne sur bande AM ou sur le 88.1 FM à partir de Saturna, nous estimons qu'au moins 10 000 francophones ne recevraient plus un signal de qualité. Nous ne pouvons donc pas envisager de libérer le 97.7 FM pour la diffusion de la Chaîne culturelle.

8651 Pour toutes les demandes présentées devant vous pour le 94.5 FM, une des alternatives proposées est le 107.1 F.M en classe "B". Les représentants de Rogers Broadcasting vous ont fait, vendredi dernier, une démonstration bien étoffé des difficultés que présente cette solution, particulièrement en regard de l'interférence causée au signal de CISQ-FM à Squamish. Nos études confirment les conclusions de Rogers.

8652 D'autres requérants ont proposé 88.3 FM, le 90.1 FM et le 92.3 FM comme alternative. Vous pouvez voir sur les cartes "D", "Ê" et "F" respectivement que toutes ces fréquences permettent seulement de couvrir le centre de Vancouver.

8653 M. DOUCET: Ces alternatives pourraient permettre à un diffuseur prive de rencontrer ses objectifs d'affaires. Par contre, avec la Chaîne culturelle, nous ne rejoindrions qu'en moyenne 25 pour-cent des francophones de Colombie-Britannique. La Colombie-Britannique compte 22 localités de plus de 500 francophones de langue maternelle. Seize d'entre elles, soit les trois quarts, seraient couvertes par le 94,5 FM contre seulement une pour une fréquence de classe A, soit le centre de Vancouver.

8654 Si une fréquence de classe B était utilisable, nous pourrions couvrir 8 de ces municipalités et rejoindre entre 40 et 45 pour-cent des francophones de la province. À titre d'exemple, nous vous référons à l'onglet "G" qui montre la couverture de la fréquence 90.9 FM Radio-Canada n'a pas appliqué sur cette fréquence puisque le 94.5 FM représentait pour nous une meilleure solution pour atteindre nos objectifs.

8655 Nous vous invitons à prendre connaissance des rapports soumis. Nous y traitons en détail de toutes les alternatives de fréquences que nous estimons utilisables à Vancouver.

8656 Pour l'ensemble des solutions envisagées, autres que le 94,5 FM, Radio-Canada ne pourra respecter son engagement de desservir plus de 50 pour-cent des francophones de la province avant l'expiration de sa licence. Dans le cas où la Société obtiendrait une fréquence de classe A, c'est plus de trente-cinq émetteurs qui devrait être installés dans de petites localités de la province. Dans le cas d'une classe B, c'est entre 10 et 15 émetteurs additionnels. Un tel déploiement dans une seule province représente un investissement financier trop important pour Radio-Canada, tant à moyen qu'à long terme.

8657 Je conclus en rappelant au CRTC que les solutions alternatives envisagées permettraient aux requérants concurrents d'atteindre leurs objectifs d'affaires puisqu'ils couvriraient sans problèmes, avec une fréquence de classe A ou B, le marché central de Vancouver.

8658 II revient bien entendu au CRTC d'équilibrer les différents intérêts en jeu. Nous sommes conscients qu'il s'agit d'une situation difficile puisque notre intérêt de diffuseur public national entre en concurrence avec ceux, très différents, des diffuseurs du secteur privé. C'est pourquoi nous souhaitons, à ce stade-ci de la procédure, fournir le plus d'information possible au CRTC afin de lui permettre de rendre une décision éclairée, en toute connaissance de cause.

8659 Nous sommes disponibles pour répondre aux questions additionnelles que pourrait avoir le Conseil.

8660 Merci.

8661 THE CHAIRPERSON: We don't have any questions. Thank you very much.

8662 MS VOGEL: Our second intervenor today is Newcap Inc. Please come forward.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

8663 MR. STEELE: Good morning, Madam Chair, Commissioners.

8664 THE CHAIRPERSON: Welcome.

8665 MR. STEELE: My name is Rob Steele. With me Bob Templeton. We have no comments to make at this stage of the intervention. We would be happy to answer any questions you may have at this time.

8666 THE CHAIRPERSON: No questions. Thank you.

8667 MR. STEELE: Okay.

8668 MS VOGEL: Our next intervenor is Standard Radio Inc. Would you come forward, please.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

8669 MR. SLAIGHT: Good morning, Madam Chair and Commissioners. I am Gary Slaight, President and CEO of Standard Radio.

8670 With me today is Gary Russell, the General Manager of our two stations in Vancouver, Eric Samuels our Program Director, Peter Grant, regulatory counsel from McCarthy Tetrault, and Gordon Elder, our technical consultant from Elder Engineering.

8671 We are pleased to have the opportunity to speak to you today. We will focus first on the competing applications for the 94.5 frequency. Then we will discuss the Rogers application for Abbotsford.

8672 This is one of the most competitive radio hearings in the CRTC's history, with eleven applicants for one frequency. Almost all of the applicants, whether locally-owned or otherwise, are experienced multi-market broadcasters who have been in the business for years and who are or should be aware of the rules.

8673 Under these circumstances, there should be little excuse for applicants that come before you and indicate they want to change their application or add elements, after having the benefit of reading all the competing applications when they were gazetted on September 15. This is not fair to the Commission, nor to the public interest, nor to those who followed the process in good faith.

8674 With this in mind, let me start by addressing the five competing smooth jazz applications, from Newcap, Telemedia, Craig, Pattison and CHUM.

8675 The first issue here is the commitment to the smooth jazz and the format.

8676 Jazz and blues has a specialty subcategory all its own, subcategory 34. While this represents a change in CRTC policy effective last June, the Commission quite properly reminded all of the smooth jazz applicants of the change and asked each of them how they proposed to work within the new rules, well before the applications were finalized and gazetted.

8677 No one can say they were not given notice of the rules. However, a number of the applicants did not do their homework in terms of the new CRTC policy and their commitments to be true to the jazz format as a specialty format.

8678 This becomes particularly clear when you ask each applicant how much of their music would actually come from the jazz and blues subcategory, including smooth jazz.

8679 Standard was at the high end at 80 per cent; Telemedia was at 70 per cent; CHUM, 66; Newcap, 60; Pattison was at 50 per cent; and Craig was only what appears to be 10 per cent, given their position that they should not be a specialty service at all.

8680 Why is this important? It is important because the CRTC policy is to favour program diversity. The more that an applicant commits to focus on category 34, a category that is clearly unserved, the more diverse the broadcasting system will be.

8681 The second issue is Canadian content. Based on our research and consultation, which focused on the supply of new jazz CDs from Canadian artists -- two to three a week, as Mr. King noted -- we concluded that a 35 per cent Canadian content rule across the board is feasible in this format right from the start.

8682 Newcap's application initially put its Canadian content at 20 per cent, but at the hearing they suggested it would be higher because of the non-jazz music they would add.

8683 Telemedia's application committed to 25 per cent. Then they asked last week to increase it to 35 per cent, saying they were confused and the supply was higher than they had originally thought.

8684 CHUM was originally at 10 per cent, and then applied to increase it to 35 per cent on the ground that they too were confused.

8685 Pattison initially proposed to start at 25 per cent rising to 35 per cent, then said no they would start at 35 per cent if required.

8686 Craig, for its part, was able to reach a 35 per cent level only by focusing on music outside the jazz and blues subcategory.

8687 These are all seasoned broadcasters. The supply of Canadian jazz CDs is not a mystery, nor were the Commission's rules.

8688 Accordingly, we object strongly to these last-minute amendments. Surely it goes to the question as to whether an applicant has done its homework if it shows up at the hearing with a different amended story on a key matter like Canadian content.

8689 Now we turn to Canadian talent development benefit proposals of the applicants

8690 Let's start with the overall amount of the benefits. We all know this is a valuable licence and the CRTC has stated in its call that the amount of the benefits will be an important consideration.

8691 In that regard, no applicant matched the $8.7 million overall commitment from Standard. CHUM was closest at $7.5 million. Then there was Newcap at $7 million, Telemedia at $5.8 million, Craig at $5.2 million, and lowest of all the smooth jazz applicants was Pattison at only $3.2 million. These are all groups with deep pockets.

8692 But just as important as the quantity is the quality of the CTD commitment. Here we think it is important to ask how each package was designed. Did the applicant simply put together a general proposal? Or did it develop a carefully designed strategy of what to do with the money based on local and national consultation?

8693 On the question of quality, a related point is the relationship between the benefits proposed and the station mandate. A number of the proposals that were made to you focused on matters that may seem worthwhile but were entirely unrelated to the radio station operation, or the music to be played on the station. We think the Commission should prefer proposals that go more directly to the support of the Canadian jazz talent.

8694 Then we come to the question of the market diversity and ownership.

8695 In that connection, I would like to turn here to Gary Russell, our General Manager here in Vancouver.

8696 MR. RUSSELL: There has been a lot of discussion in this hearing about the merits of local ownership. The argument has been made that local owners will give more attention to local talent and will have a better sense of the needs of the community.

8697 As a local manager, I have a different take on this situation. It is true that local owners can provide superb local radio service. But it is also true that national owners can provide superb local service, if their local managers have deep roots in the community and have the autonomy to make programming decisions.

8698 So the key issue to be assessed here is not local ownership. It is the responsiveness of local management, and how much that local management has been given to work with in terms of resources.

8699 If you look at the Pattison application, the local management is given only $1.6 million to expend on local talent over 7 years: $350,000 for live concerts, and $1.2 million for Project Cool.

8700 By contrast, if Standard was awarded the licence, Eric Samuels and myself, as the local management team, will be administering over $5.5 million for the jazz STAR program, most of which we will be earmarking for local musical talent.

8701 But the other side of the coin is to ask what a national applicant can do that a locally-owned operation cannot. In a musical genre like jazz, with artists located in communities across the country, what is needed is a national as well as a local strategy. And that is where a purely locally owned operation may not be as well positioned to make a difference.

8702 MR. SLAIGHT: Thank you, Gary.

8703 I would like to turn now to the other five applicants for 94.5.

8704 First, the CBC application. Our position, as noted before, is that this service would not be the highest and best use of 94.5. However, other frequencies are available, including 107.1, which would give the CBC most of the coverage it needs.

8705 We oppose the other applicants because we think that the smooth jazz is a more distinctive and popular format, because we believe their commitments were far inferior to ours, and not commensurate with the value of the licence.

8706 The urban applicants should not be favoured over smooth jazz because our existing station, Z95, already largely occupies this niche.

8707 We note for example that of the 12 artists listed in Future Radio's research as describing their musical sound, 11 of them are played regularly on Z95, seven of them in heavy rotation.

8708 They have simply researched the viability of Z95, not a new, unique service.

8709 We also note that the Canadian talent development proposals in the Urban applications were a fraction of the commitments in our application.

8710 In regard to the classical music applicant, we note that the classical music format is already covered by CBC Radio Two, and this would be augmented with a newly licensed SRC station.

8711 As to the ethnic application, we question the extent to which this is really an ethnic station, since most of its programming will be in English, contrary to your new ethnic policy. Its Canadian talent development proposals, at only $210,000, are the lowest of all the applicants for 94.5 and again not commensurate with its proposed profits. We also note that the station would serve a relatively small number of Vancouver's ethnic communities.

8712 For all these reasons, Madam Chair and Commissioners, we consider that awarding 94.5 to Standard would represent the highest and best use of that frequency for Vancouver.

8713 Let us conclude by dealing with the Rogers application for Abbotsford.

8714 I will ask Peter Grant to deal with the technical aspects.

8715 MR. GRANT: Standard Radio has already filed a written intervention in regard to the Rogers application. As noted in that intervention, Standard Radio considers that the Rogers application should not be granted for 107.1, since that frequency should be reserved for possible use in Vancouver.

8716 Last Friday, Rogers filed a technical report from Wayne Stacey and Associates as part of their application. Elder Engineering has carefully reviewed that report and we are tabling with the Commission today a technical report from Elder Engineering which addresses the Stacey study. As you will see, the Elder Engineering report demonstrates that the use of the frequency in Squamish is not a bar to the use of the frequency in Vancouver.

8717 On a different point, further investigation has shown us that 99.9 is not available for use in Abbotsford, so we withdraw that suggestion and agree with Rogers on that point. However, that does not exclude the use of some other frequency for Abbotsford and we are quite optimistic that a detailed search could provide a suitable channel.

8718 MR. SLAIGHT: As to the merits of the Abbotsford application itself, we have no problem with allowing a local AM station to flip to an FM frequency. We have a real problem with letting Rogers utilize 107.1, given the higher and better use of that frequency in Vancouver, and given Rogers history -- so recently seen in Smiths Falls and Chilliwack -- of using a small local station as an entry point to a nearby urban market, resulting in the effective loss of the local service in both markets.

8719 That concludes our oral intervention, Madam Chair and members of the Commission. We would be pleased to respond to your questions.

8720 THE CHAIRPERSON: We have no questions. Thank you, gentlemen.

8721 MS VOGEL: Madam Chair, for the record, we will be calling three intervenors who will sit at the same time and present to the Commission. Those intervenors are Telemedia Radio, Craig Broadcasting Systems, and Jim Pattison Industries.

8722 I would invite them to come forward please.

8723 Mainstream Broadcasting will also join this panel.

--- Pause

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

8724 MR. BEAUDOIN: Madame Chair, Commissioners.

8725 My name is Claude Beaudoin, and I am President and CEO of Telemedia Radio Inc. With me at the table is Mr. Chris Weafer, our legal consultant from Owen Bird; and also Mr. Doug Allen our engineering consultant from DEM Allen Associates of Winnipeg.

8726 MR. ARNISH: Good morning. I am Rick Arnish, President of the Jim Pattison Broadcast Group. This intervention is presented jointly today by Telemedia Radio Inc., Jim Pattison Industries Ltd., and Harvard Broadcasting.

8727 MR. COWIE: I am Bruce Cowie, representing Harvard Broadcasting and Craig Broadcast Systems.

8728 Our joint comments today will deal only with the CBC position that their only alternative to provide la Chaîne culterelle to Vancouver is to use the 94.5 frequency.

8729 Telemedia Radio Inc., Harvard Broadcasting/Craig Broadcast Systems, and Jim Pattison Broadcasting retained Doug Allen to confirm that there is an alternative that will allow provision of all four CBC services to Vancouver and to leave 94.5 free for a commercial station. In the interests of efficiency, our comments this morning are on behalf of the three applicants.

8730 MR. BEAUDOIN: Madam Chair, I would like also to mention Mr. James Ho at the table with us from Mainstream Broadcasting, who is also supporting this intervention.

8731 We hope that these comments will be helpful to the Commission in reaching your decisions.

8732 Chris Weafer will make our presentation.

8733 MR. WEAFER: Good morning.

8734 We recognize that the Commission must determine how to best implement in Vancouver its long-standing policy that la Chaîne culturelle should be accessible in as much of Canada as possible. Telemedia, Jim Pattison Broadcast Group, Harvard/Craig and Mainstream Broadcasting all understand and support this goal.

8735 The CBC now provides service to Vancouver on three frequencies: CBC Radio One on 690 AM Mono, CBC Radio Two on 105.7 FM Stereo, and la Première chaîne on 97.7 FM Mono. To extend la Chaîne culturelle to Vancouver will require a fourth frequency.

8736 The CBC attempted to present the case that 94.5 FM is necessary to do this.

8737 The CBC, like most broadcasters, prefers an FM solution rather than using AM. We respectfully suggest there is an FM alternative that only the CBC could utilize effectively. Preliminary engineering studies conducted by DEM Allen Associates that frequency 88.1, with a transmitter location on Saturna Island, would provide excellent coverage of Vancouver with a power output of up to 10,000 watts.

8738 The attached map demonstrates that full Vancouver coverage from this site. The one constraint is that due to multi path concerns, this facility should be operated in monaural, not stereo mode.

8739 This group of intervenors suggest that the CBC construct a facility on Saturna Island to utilize the 88.1 FM frequency, and move la Première chaîne to this frequency. This will provide monaural FM service, the same mode la Première chaîne operates in at present in each of the markets where they provide service, including Vancouver. We understand that Rogers Broadcasting has indicated a willingness to work with a party licensed by the Commission such that the costs of this approach would not be significant to the CBC.

8740 This approach would leave 97.7 FM available for la Chaîne culturelle. This service can operate in stereo with no technical constraints from the present 97.7 location on Mount Seymour.

8741 Thus, the CBC will have the four frequencies necessary to provide access to all of its services in Vancouver. 94.5 FM will be available for a further commercial service in a market that has fewer stations per capita than most.

8742 This strikes this group of intervenors as a win for the CBC, a win for Vancouver listeners, and a win for the CRTC who will be able to significantly expand listener choices in each of Canada's official languages.

8743 These comments may raise the question why a smooth jazz applicant could not move to 88.1 FM and build a facility on Saturna Island.

8744 Our technical advice is that stereo operation on 88.1 is simply not advisable from any location in the Vancouver area due to multi path concerns or channel 6 interference concerns: CHEK TV.

8745 Smooth jazz is one of the formats that require stereo. The subtleties of jazz music and the expectations of an audience accustomed to high quality audio would make it very difficult for Smooth Jazz 94.5 FM to find success with a mono signal, or a noisy, fading stereo signal. CJAZ FM found that out in the 1980s. One of the reasons cited for the fact CJAZ FM did not succeed is the fact it had a technically impaired signal that suffered from significant multi path problems. This is similar to the signal an FM stereo service on 88.1 FM would provide.

8746 The CBC would not suffer any of these technical difficulties on 88.1 FM in mono.

8747 The most efficient use of the spectrum, to maximize use of scarce frequencies, appears to be the use of 88.1 FM in mono, and the CBC is in the best position to utilize it without changing the type of service it now offers Première chaîne listeners.

8748 The Commission has discussed the use of other "drop in" frequencies with various applicants. A number of "drop in" FM frequencies have been identified at this hearing. Each of these frequencies has coverage limitations or interference concerns or may not work from a Mount Seymour site because of short spacing to existing assignments. We submit that use of these frequencies for a commercial FM service that would compete directly with the full power, high quality, unimpaired existing frequencies would be difficult and would therefore put the financial viability of the new service in doubt.

8749 MR. ARNISH: The Jim Pattison Broadcast Group is in total agreement with the points outlined by Mr. Weafer. We appear today with Telemedia, Harvard/Craig and Mainstream to save us all some time in this phase.

8750 You may remember that when we appeared in Phase I, our technical consultant Dan Roach sketched out the very same solution. This presentation today confirms the viability of this approach. We believe this will ensure efficient use of the FM spectrum to everyone's benefit.

8751 MR. BEAUDOIN: Madame Chair, Commissioners, we thank you for this opportunity to outline our joint plan to meet the CRTC goal of introducing full CBC service, and have 94.5 FM for a new commercial service for Vancouver.

8752 Thank you.

8753 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, gentlemen. We don't have any questions.

8754 MS VOGEL: Our next intervenor is Classic 94.5 FM. Would you come forward, please.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

8755 MS ROBERTSON: Commissioners, we have no intervention to make today. We are prepared to respond to your questions.

8756 THE CHAIRPERSON: We don't have any questions.

8757 Thank you very much.

8758 MS VOGEL: Our next intervenor is Focus Entertainment Group Inc. Would you come forward, please.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

8759 MR. ROTA: Madame Chair and Commissioners. I would just like to reintroduce our panel.

8760 To the far left we have Don Hamilton; shareholder, Blake Cowan; Mr. Maximus Clean; our broadcast consultant, Jim Robson; and myself, Vice-President of Focus Entertainment, Tony Rota.

8761 Don.

8762 MR. HAMILTON: Madam Chair and Commissioners, in light of our earlier replies to a Commission deficiency letter and to the CAB's intervention on the CBC's proposal for 94.5, our comments will be brief.

8763 We oppose the CBC's claim to 94.5 on the basis that it will not serve the public interest to use Vancouver's last high powered FM frequency to reach 23,000 Canadians, when there are proposals before the Commission that will more fully utilize the frequency.

8764 Given the financial challenges facing the CBC today in providing basic radio and television services to Canadians, 94.5 in Vancouver is hardly a priority at this time.

8765 MR. COWAN: Turning next to the six smooth jazz applicants, Focus Entertainment will confine its remarks to the smooth jazz format, rather than to the individual proposals, for another jazz station in Vancouver.

8766 We say another jazz station in the context that Selkirk was licensed to establish CJAZ in Vancouver, only to have it fail within months of coming to air. Among the problems faced by CJAZ, was the fact that its format was too narrow to attract the audience and revenues that it needed to survive.

8767 It is significant that in Toronto, Canada's largest radio market, which is double the size of Vancouver, there is no commercial jazz station. Torontonians are served up their jazz by CJRT, a campus/community station that plays jazz and classical music and is largely dependent on public donations to finance its operation.

8768 While CJAZ had a more traditional jazz format, today's smooth jazz concept essentially merges jazz crossover material with adult contemporary vocal and instrumental tracks. As such, we question the level of diversity that smooth jazz will bring to the Vancouver market.

8769 It was obvious during Phase I that smooth jazz is somewhat of a loosely defined format in Canada. One applicant noted they had originally applied for another format, while a second applicant presented a hybrid version while waiting for the smooth jazz format to establish itself across the license term.

8770 Based on Pollara's extensive market research, Vancouver's radio audience clearly illustrated that the format void in the Vancouver market is for Urban, not smooth jazz.

8771 Madame Chair, it is our view that existing Vancouver broadcasters could well accommodate Vancouverites interest in smooth jazz within their current formats, rather than utilizing the last high power FM frequency to deliver programming that will not yield the diversity and listener choice that Focus Entertainment's urban music format will bring to the market.

8772 Since the proposed smooth jazz format skews older -- 35-54, and 55-64 for the most part -- it could easily be accommodated within the formats of existing Vancouver stations serving those demographics.

8773 Madame Chair, if a license is granted for 94.5 FM, it should go to a new local player in the Vancouver market offering a fresh format that will lend programming diversity and listener choice, while fully reflecting the cultural tapestry that is Vancouver.

8774 MR. ROTA: Turning next to Future Radio's proposal for an urban rhythm station, it is our view that Future's targeted 12 to 24 demographic and limited urban music mix are too narrow to adequately respond to the broader listening needs of Vancouver's urban music community.

8775 Further, the 12 to 24 year-old demographic is less appealing to Vancouver's business community and national advertisers compared to Focus Entertainment's more broadly based urban music format and the various demos within its 18 to 54 year-old listenership spectrum.

8776 Future proposes to offer a mix of hip hop and rhythm and blues to its 12 to 24 year-old listening audience. While these components reflect the tastes of younger Urban listeners, they fall well short of the full menu of urban music styles that Vancouver's urban listening community wants to hear on local radio.

8777 Pollara's extensive testing of more than 1,000 Vancouverites, clearly define a broadly based 18 to 54 year-old audience in search of a mainstream station that will play a full mix of urban music.

8778 As such, the core musical styles featured on The Beat have significant appeal in the 18-34 and 35-54 age demographics. More specifically, motown and reggae are more popular among the 35-54 age segment, while rap, dance and hip hop are more popular among the 18-34 age group. Modern R&B is popular among both segments, but strongest among the female 18-34 demographic

8779 In short, the musical styles of The Beat, respond directly to the musical listening patterns of the Vancouver audience.

8780 We would stress that Focus Entertainment, if licensed, would, in large part, serve the listening needs of a 12-24 demographic.

8781 Future, however, if licensed, because of its narrow demographic and limited urban music mix, would not serve the needs of a broadly based 18-54 urban listening audience, with the net result that a large part of Vancouver's urban community, 25-54, would remain unserved and the 94.5 frequency less than fully utilized.

8782 Future also talked about its Cancon levels tied to a formula of one Canadian artist every hour of every day of every week throughout the year

8783 By comparison, Focus Entertainment in its ongoing efforts to expose and highlight Canadian urban talent throughout its daily broadcast schedule, would underline the fact that many of our programs are devoted entirely to Canadian artists.

8784 Mid-Day Canadian Spotlights, for example, is a two-hour program, aired Monday to Friday, that features nothing but Canadian artists. This will result in at least 20 Canadian selections played within that two hour time frame every day.

8785 As well, other programs including Urban Showcase, Local Spotlight and Canadian World Beat Rhythms, are all devoted entirely to exposing Canadian Urban artists.

8786 The net effect of such concentrated exposure is that our Cancon level far exceeds the minimum 35 per cent and will continue to do so as the Canadian play list grows through our ongoing talent development initiatives.

8787 Focus Entertainment's depth of urban music knowledge and expertise within the genre is without parallel in Vancouver, if not Canada. While we respect Future's principals, they do not bring that same level of intimate knowledge and expertise of urban music to the Vancouver radio market.

8788 MR. CLEAN: Madame Chair, with respect to Mainstream Broadcasting's proposal for an ethnic FM station on 94.5, Focus Entertainment is of the view that Vancouver's broader multicultural community would be better served had Mainstream applied for a full service ethnic station, rather than the confusing format, which in some respects appears to be more of a mainstream station dressed in an ethnic station's clothing.

8789 Given the well proven approach taken by ethnic broadcasters in Vancouver, Toronto and other Canadian markets, we question why Mainstream would ignore the second largest and most underserved third language community in Vancouver, and apply its limited ethnic component to much smaller European language groups.

8790 Mainstream seemed to hedge on the Commission's question of whether a fourth ethnic station would be viable in Vancouver. Based on the language component of its filed application, we would likely agree. Had Mainstream, however, included as its core audience, the largely underserved 250,000 member South Asian community, and extended service to the Japanese, Filipino and Korean communities, along with the European groups, they would have had a viable entity that addressed the third language needs of Vancouver's broader multicultural community beyond the already well served Chinese community.

8791 Madame Chair, with all due respect to Mainstream's world and international music proposal, second and third generation Ethnic Canadians will be better served by our urban music format which, as Pollara's research clearly illustrates, holds great interest for listeners across all cultures.

8792 Essentially, urban is the music that young ethnic Canadians want to hear. By comparison, Mainstream's market research illustrated that nearly 50 per cent of their survey respondents were not familiar with the world music format.

8793 Of those who were familiar with the format, 51 per cent stated that they enjoyed world music to varying degrees, 11.3 per cent did not enjoy the format, and 37.7 per cent had no response given their lack of knowledge of the format.

8794 With respect to Cancon levels, we took note of the fact that Mainstream were amending their application on the fly by increasing their Canadian content to 10 per cent across the board and then upping it to 15 per cent and finally to 35 per cent by the end of the license term.

8795 When all is said and done, licensing Mainstream's hybrid format will do little to further enhance the Commission's ethnic broadcasting policy objectives, nor serve the needs of those second and third generation ethnic Canadians who are searching for the music of their choice. Increasingly, that music is urban music as proposed by Focus Entertainment.

8796 Madam Chair, that completes our comments related to competing applications.

8797 Thank you.

8798 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, gentlemen. No questions.

8799 MR. ROTA: Thank you.

8800 MS VOGEL: Our next intervenor is Future Radio Inc. Would you come forward, please.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

8801 MR. McLAUGHLIN: Madam Chair, Commissioners, good morning.

8802 For the record, my name is Jim McLaughlin representing Future Radio Inc.

8803 First, I would like to thank the Commissioners for the generous and fair hearing we received last week.

8804 We have no comments to make at this time. Thank you.

8805 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. We have no questions.

8806 MS VOGEL: Our next intervenor is CHUM Limited. Please come forward.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

8807 MR. WATERS: Good morning. Just for the record I'm Jim Waters and with me is Paul Ski, Ross Davies and Duff Roman.

8808 Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, CHUM hereby intervenes against Société Radio-Canada for the use of 94.5 Mhz.

8809 CHUM acknowledges that Parliament has declared an extension of national French language services to be in the public interest. The question is whether awarding 94.5 to SRC is the best use of the frequency. This service, at best, would serve a small minority, approximately 1.3 per cent of the population of Vancouver whose mother tongue is French.

8810 A total tuning to SRC in Vancouver according the Spring 2000 BBM survey was 56,000 hours a week, a 0.2 per cent share, reaching less than 1 per cent of the 1.8 million people in Vancouver.

8811 We suggest it is not in the public interest to accord SRC use of the last remaining high power FM frequency.

8812 Furthermore, several applicants have put forward viable alternatives to provide the SRC service to the francophone population of the lower mainland. CHUM reiterates its offer to provide transmitting facilities for SRC at its CFUN AM transmitter site at no charge.

8813 With respect to the Craig/Harvard application, CHUM submits that theirs is not a true smooth jazz application since it overly relies on Category 2 vocal selections, an easy listening selection. That means they can move to another format at will.

8814 With respect to Rogers' application for use of 107.1 MHz in Abbotsford, there are some additional issues raised. Abbotsford is located in the Fraser Valley market as defined by BBM where there are two Rogers FM stations which currently garner significant ratings. The first station is CKVX-FM, which was licensed to Chilliwack but has been relocated to Vancouver with a local rebroadcasting transmitter in Abbotsford.

8815 Rogers' CKKS-FM Vancouver also achieves significant ratings in the Fraser Valley market. The flip of Rogers' Abbotsford AM station to FM would result in Rogers having three FM stations with significant penetration in the Fraser Valley market.

8816 Also on Friday Rogers expressed concern that its CISQ-FM in Squamish would suffer interference if the Commissioner were to licence a new station in Vancouver at 107.1. Squamish is so far removed from the U.S. border and protected by mountains that there may be other frequencies available for CISQ-FM. It may be technically feasible to move CISQ to an alternative frequency and thereby open up use of 107.1 in Vancouver for other broadcasters.

8817 However, Rogers may have different intentions. By protecting their 107.1 frequency in both Squamish and Abbotsford, they have effectively created a checkmate to expansion by others in the Vancouver market.

8818 Through consolidation, it has taken CKVX-FM Chilliwack and repositioned it as a Vancouver station. One is almost tempted to ask if Rogers is allowed to lock-in 107.1 at Abbotsford will we see yet another Rogers' Fraser Valley radio service targeted to Vancouver.

8819 I would like to address the matter of local ownership. Yes, the CHUM head office is in Toronto, and we are not embarrassed by that in the least. We are all very proud of this company and how it was built. Virtually, every station that CHUM has purchased over the past 40 years or so was losing money when it was acquired, including our Winnipeg stations which were sold to us by Jim Pattison.

8820 However, CHUM always believed that strong local programming, strong local management, and creative people could turn these stations around -- and we did. Whether the CHUM head office was in Toronto or not, we went into each of these communities and our people dedicated themselves to providing the best local radio service possible, and that continues to be our mandate today wherever we operate, radio or television.

8821 Frankly, I consider CHUM to be a local Vancouver broadcaster. We have been here for 28 years; longer than anyone else except Jim Pattison.

8822 If you want to talk about local commitment, we operated in Vancouver for 18 years with a standalone AM station. We didn't sell it. We stayed with it until we had the opportunity to acquire an FM station in 1990.

8823 Finally, the question has been asked: What companies will leave in the local community whose head office is located in another part of Canada?

8824 Mr. Pattison's head office is located here in Vancouver. For the record, a review of Jim Pattison Industries' Web site suggests that Mr. Pattison operates the third largest privately held company in Canada with assets of over $2.9 billion and sales of over $4.6 billion.

8825 To put this into perspective, his company's assets are far and away, much more substantial than other applicants in this proceeding, including our own. Yet, when it came to leaving something in the Vancouver community, the Pattison application proposed $2.1 million for Canadian talent development, the lowest amount of any smooth jazz applicant.

8826 CHUM, whose head office is in Toronto, promises to leave $7 million in the Vancouver community through our MPLAY initiative.

8827 Madam Chair and Members of the Commission, the complexity of this proceeding should not be understated. We thank you for a full and thorough examination of our application and we wish you well in your deliberations.

8828 Thank you.

8829 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. We have no questions.

8830 MS VOGEL: Our next intervenor is Gary Farmer. Please come forward.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

8831 MR. FARMER: Good morning, Madam Chair and Commissioners.

8832 With me today is John Matthews, our engineer. We would just like to give you a few remarks in regards to what we are feeling about how things lay out engineering-wise.

8833 MR. MATTHEWS: Good morning, Commissioners.

8834 On Friday, you heard Rogers offer its Abbotsford AM channel for use by Simon Fraser or AVR. We feel that it is not appropriate, for reasons we have already stated, to use an AM channel for our service, but we feel that the CBC should take a closer look at that for their Première chaîne in Vancouver, which give them the opportunity to use their FM channel for la Chaîne culturelle here.

8835 You have heard also from Rogers regarding 106.9 or 107.1 in Vancouver. In our view, keeping 106.9 -- or 107.1 in Vancouver makes a lot of sense because it gives the Commission one more FM coverage option to satisfy the many applicants for a Vancouver service. Now, only Rogers has objected to this idea. They want 107.1 for Abbotsford, and they already use it in Squamish where naturally they have concerns about interference.

8836 First of all, they don't like the alternate frequency, 99.9, which was suggested for Abbotsford. So let's take a look at that first.

8837 We believe that that frequency is useable in Abbotsford, and it is a spectrum-efficient solution for Abbotsford coverage. That frequency can't be used in Vancouver because it is second adjacent to CKKQ in Victoria, so it fits Abbotsford without tying up a Vancouver channel. Rogers gave two reasons why they thought that frequency wouldn't work.

8838 First of all, interference to CFOX in Vancouver. The area of potential interference to CFOX is quite small, less than a half a kilometre in radius, and that is based on an even higher effective power than they had proposed for that channel, and it encloses a very small population.

8839 What we know is that CFOX has a strong signal in the area of Rogers transmitter site in Abbotsford. It is unobstructed by hills. Because the two channels we are talking about are three FM channels apart, the likelihood of actual interference as opposed to potential interference is quite small. We believe that Rogers should be able to win Industry Canada's approval by committing to remedy any interference that does take place in the area of potential interference to CFOX. That can easily be done on a case-by-case basis because of the very small population close to the Abbotsford transmitter site and the likelihood of interference is quite low.

8840 The second reason that Rogers said that frequency in Abbotsford wouldn't work was interference from KISW in Seattle. Yes, there is some interference from KISW but it would take place, for the most part, south of Abbotsford over the U.S. border where their service is not entitled to any protection.

8841 Furthermore, there are just a few little hills in between Seattle and Abbotsford. We like to call them mountains out here.

8842 So, in our view, 99.9 in Abbotsford can be operated with higher power to overcome whatever interference does take place.

8843 Rogers also explained that mountain FM in Squamish could be protected from potential interference from 106.9 and 107.1 in Vancouver, and we agree with them on this view. However, this protection is not so difficult to achieve as Rogers would have led you to believe.

8844 First of all, a full class "B" Vancouver station with complete Vancouver CMA coverage from the top of Mount Seymour has a peak effective power of less than 3,000 watts, so it can be designed to radiate less than 30 watts towards Bowen Island or towards Squamish.

8845 Second of all, Rogers overlooked one station that operates from part way down Mount Seymour, CFRO-FM, a Vancouver Co-Op Radio, when they discussed the potential transmitter sites for use on 106.9 or 107.1.

8846 Third, Rogers alluded to one possible difficulty of short spacing, that their mountain FM would be unduly restricted if it wanted to later improve its coverage. That would be true only if Rogers did not reach an industry standard agreement from whoever was licensed in Vancouver that would allow them some latitude for future changes.

8847 Fourth, Rogers went on in some detail about indirect reception and indirect interference paths for their mountain FM coverage.

8848 We are sympathetic to Rogers coverage problems for a mountain FM, but the problems in the southern part of its coverage area were due to a poor choice of a transmitter site that they inherited when they purchased that station. We believe that coverage would be dramatically improved with a higher transmitter site for the southern part of the coverage thereby overcoming any significant interference from around the corner in Vancouver.

8849 We understand that Rogers has planned just this sort of improvement. That is the way it believe it can be fixed as well.

8850 Finally, we will go on to the CBC's needs. We know there are a number of possible coverage solutions for the CBC other than 94.5 in Vancouver that would address the CBC's coverage mandate as directed in their licence renewal.

8851 First, and you have heard this before, 88.1 could serve both Vancouver and Victoria from Saturna Island, even at the power reduction that is required by Industry Canada regulations.

8852 If it were used for the mono Première chaîne service, it would free up one of CBC's Victoria FM channels to deliver la Chaîne culturelle to Victoria, and likewise in Vancouver.

8853 Second of all, Rogers has offered its AM signal from Abbotsford, if it is allowed to flip. We think that that might be suitable for la Première chaîne in Vancouver, which again will free up the CBC's Vancouver FM channel for la Chaîne culturelle.

8854 There are additional solutions. We also believe that 106.9 or 107.1 could provide service within the Vancouver CMA.

8855 So, in short, there are a number of options of that the CBC should be taking a closer look at and we will be able to respond to them in a detailed report once we have the information they submitted to you this morning.

8856 That is all we have to say at this point.

8857 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, gentlemen. We have no questions.

8858 MS VOGEL: Our next intervenor is Simon Fraser University. Please come forward.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

8859 MR. THYVOLD: Hello there. Just as a minor clarification, sometimes you make the difference, it is the Simon Fraser Campus Radio Society. Sometimes they don't like to be known as exactly the same thing as us.

8860 But we have no comments today. Thank you.

8861 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

8862 MS VOGEL: Our next intervenor is Central Island Broadcasting.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

8863 MR. WEAFER: Thank you, Madam Chair.

8864 Central Island Broadcasting has no comments at this time.

8865 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. We have no questions.

8866 MS VOGEL: Next we have Radio Malaspina Society.

--- Pause / pause

8867 THE CHAIRPERSON: It looks like they don't have anything to say either.

8868 MS VOGEL: Not hearing anything, we next have Rogers Broadcasting Limited.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

8869 MR. EDWARDS: Thank you, Madam Chair. We have no comments at this time.

8870 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. We have no questions at this time.

8871 MS VOGEL: That concludes Phase II, Madam Chair.

8872 THE CHAIRPERSON: We are actually running ahead of schedule here. We will take our break.

8873 I wonder, are some intervenors here? Oh, we have some intervenors here. Okay.

8874 So we will be back in 15 minutes, at 10:20, to begin Phase III.

8875 This concludes Phase II. I have to be official about this. No? No.

--- Short recess at 1005/ Courte suspension à 1005

--- Upon resuming at 1028 / Reprise à 1028

8876 THE CHAIRPERSON: We will resume.

8877 MS VOGEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

8878 Before we conclude Phase II, I would like to ask whether anyone from Radio Malaspina Society is here for their intervention.

8879 Seeing no one, I believe that concludes Phase II.

8880 THE CHAIRPERSON: It does. Thank you, Madam Secretary.

8881 MS VOGEL: Beginning Phase III is another intervention phase. Intervenors have 10 minutes in which to make their presentation.

8882 Our first intervenor is Jazz Solution Artist Management. Please come forward.

8883 THE CHAIRPERSON: For the record, Madam Secretary, if people aren't here the first time around we will recall parties at a later time.

8884 MS VOGEL: So I would invite Coastal Jazz & Blues to come forward, please.

8885 THE CHAIRPERSON: Actually, you can sit anywhere you would like. That will do.

8886 Good morning. How are you, Mr. Kerr?

--- Pause / pause

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

8887 MR. KERR: Madam Chairperson, Members of the Commission, thank you for this opportunity to speak before you today.

8888 My name is Robert Kerr. I am Executive Director and one of the founding members of the Coastal Jazz & Blues Society. I am also President of the WestCan Jazz Association Inc., and the Chair for Jazz Festivals Canada.

8889 It is my pleasure to be here today to unequivocally support the smooth jazz format for Vancouver and in particular the applications by Telemedia, Standard, Newcap and Craig.

8890 Coastal Jazz & Blues Society is a Vancouver based non-profit society and registered charity with 16 years of experience producing concerts and festivals featuring world class artists from the realms of jazz, blues, world and improvised music. We created the annual Vancouver International Jazz Festival, also known as the du Maurier International Jazz Festival Vancouver, back in 1986. And in addition to the Jazz Festival we have presented 30 to 40 concerts per year since 1985, throughout the regular season.

8891 We are steadfast supporters of Canadian artists. On average, more than 65 per cent of the musicians that we present through our concerts and festivals are Canadian, with the majority of these being Vancouver-based artists.

8892 Coastal Jazz & Blues is an integral part of the local, national and international jazz community; having a strong artistic vision and extensive experience in the practical realities of building a mass audience for jazz related music. I am proud to say that over the past 16 years the Vancouver International Jazz Festival has grown very successfully to become the largest annual arts event in western Canada, presenting 384 performances and attracting over 380,000 people for our 15th anniversary in 2000 this past summer.

8893 Coastal Jazz & Blues Society very strongly supports the smooth jazz format for the following reasons:

8894 One, there is a large and enthusiastic audience for jazz and jazz-related music in Vancouver as proven by the extraordinary growth and success of the Vancouver International Jazz Festival for the past 15 years.

8895 The Jazz Festival is not only Vancouver's largest annual event; it is also the city's favourite festival. The Jazz Festival was voted Best Festival by both the 2000 Georgia Straight Readers' Poll and the 2000 Vancouver Courier Readers' Poll.

8896 The audience has a broad demographic scope, ranging from 19 to 55 years in age, almost equally female and male, and including the full spectrum of Vancouver's culturally diverse communities.

8897 Two, no substantial radio service exists in Vancouver to serve the audience for jazz and jazz-related music.

8898 Vancouver has all manner of rock radio from soft to hard, oldies to alternative; the city's most popular station, Z95.3 FM, deals with dance and urban music, even if its mostly urban-lite; classical music is very well served by CBC Radio Two; Fairchild's 96.1 FM The World does a great job with world beat music; country is covered, both new and old; there are a number of services for the city's various ethnic communities; and there's more talk radio than you can stand to listen to.

8899 Jazz is served at only the most marginal level: a handful of hours each week across all CBC services, and a few high-quality but limited-reach programs on low-power Vancouver Cooperative Radio and CITR at UBC.

8900 There is no question that Vancouver's current and potential audience for jazz and jazz-related music is almost completely ignored by radio. This situation is surely reinforced by the fact that six broadcasters are proposing a smooth jazz format through this current application process.

8901 It seems that the broadcasting industry has finally recognized the deficiency we have seen in this market for a long time.

8902 Three, a full power smooth jazz radio station would be the most successful audience development vehicle for jazz in Vancouver since the inception of the Vancouver International Jazz Festival itself.

8903 The most effective means by which we have developed audiences for the Jazz Festival is by taking the festival to the people through large-scale free outdoor events in Gastown, Granville Island, the Plaza of Nations and David Lam Park. These free outdoor performances give people an opportunity to hear music they never would otherwise and without having to pay for a concert ticket. It is an incredibly powerful way to turn on the uninitiated and to expand awareness of music beyond the Top 40.

8904 Similarly, I believe a smooth jazz radio station would help build audiences for jazz by presenting the music in a format accessible to a wide range of people who are not necessarily jazz listeners, but who are looking for something to listen to beyond Top 40 hype and yesterday's retreads. It will build a very substantial bridge to a new audience for jazz, providing a gateway for people who have never even heard of David Sanborn let alone Charlie Parker.

8905 I don't believe that jazz is an elite art form meant only for hipsters and intellectuals. Like all music industry categories jazz is a many-headed beast encompassing a wide variety of styles and directions. Commercially-oriented smooth jazz is not hard-core free jazz, however legitimate connections exist between smooth jazz and mainstream jazz artists.

8906 For example, George Benson's popular guitar style has very strong roots in the style of post-bop legend Wes Montgomery; and smooth jazz saxophonist Grover Washington Jr. was indebted to the innovations of swing-era giants such as Johnny Hodges and Ben Webster.

8907 If a smooth jazz station is programmed creatively and intelligently it can illustrate the connections between popular music and jazz, building knowledge and interest among a heretofore unreachable audience; an audience that has either been intimidated by the cultural myths and stereotypes that surround jazz, or remained blissfully ignorant due to the incredible lack of marketing resources put behind jazz for the better part of the last century.

8908 Four, a smooth jazz station would have tremendous positive benefits for all aspects of Vancouver's jazz community, including local artists, organizations, schools, students and

audiences themselves.

8909 Local artists will be a primary beneficiary given the high levels of Canadian content most applicants are committing to. There is a huge community of jazz artists in Vancouver whose recorded output is second only to Toronto. Both local and national artists will gain substantial airplay and the level of awareness of their music will increase exponentially as a result of audience development. On-air promotion through artist profiles and a regular calendar of events for live performances by local jazz artists will have a huge impact. This doesn't exist now outside of the very marginal programs I talked about before.

8910 Most of the applicants have also committed very substantial Canadian Talent Development funds to further the careers of local artists through live broadcasts of performances from clubs and concerts, funding new recording projects, and tour support.

8911 Coastal Jazz & Blues Society is very pleased that almost all of the applicants have committed Canadian Talent Development funds in support of the many activities we undertake to develop Canadian jazz artists. Telemedia, Standard, Craig and Newcap have all committed very substantial annual financial and promotional support; and Pattison has also indicated their readiness to work in partnership with us. These commitments recognize the significance of the programs that we undertake in support of Canadian artists and the central role we play in the local and national jazz community.

8912 I believe it also recognizes the need of the broadcasters to work with organizations in the community who have the experience and expertise to create and execute effective programs that actually end up benefiting the artists themselves.

8913 Coastal Jazz & Blues has the experience and expertise to put these funds to very good use. Our programs have received worldwide critical acclaim, and we are praised for our sound financial management, accountability and organizational stability.

8914 Over the past 16 years we have managed substantial public and private sector funding from a wide variety of sources including the Canada Council, BC Arts Council, Department of Foreign Affairs, Department of Canadian Heritage, City of Vancouver, City of Burnaby, and many overseas agencies such as the Japan/Canada Fund, the British Council, the Italian Cultural Institute, the Goethe Institute, et cetera.

8915 The CTD commitments will support a wide variety of performances featuring original Canadian music, new works and special projects by both emerging and established B.C. and Canadian artists. These activities will be part of both our annual concert season and the Vancouver International Jazz Festival.

8916 As the Commission may be aware the Federal Government's recent Tobacco Act will put an end to tobacco company sponsorship of events. Given du Maurier's major funding of the Jazz Festival this legislation will have a very negative impact on our organization and our support of Canadian artists. The potential support from these CTD funds will help greatly in our quest for replacement funding. It will especially help to ensure our ability to continue to provide strong support for Canadian artists.

8917 Music education programs in local schools have suffered in recent years due to government funding cutbacks to education. The applicants' various commitments to support jazz in the schools should be commended for two reasons.

8918 First of all they help redress a vicious devaluation of the role of the arts in education today. And furthermore, they promote a style of music that has long been overlooked and undervalued by the public school system in British Columbia.

8919 I hope the Commission will agree that the smooth jazz format fills the strongest need in Vancouver's radio services and will provide very substantial benefits to Canadian artists and the community at large.

8920 Selecting between the smooth jazz applicants themselves is a daunting task. In deciding which of the six applications would operate the best smooth jazz station, I would respectfully suggest the Commission consider the following factors in addition to all of the above:

8921 One, the extent of the commitment to play jazz and jazz-related music over the term of the licence.

8922 Two, the extent of the commitment to play Canadian content within the category of jazz and jazz-related music over the term of the licence.

8923 And, three, the extent of the commitment to non-playlist or specialty jazz programming.

8924 Strong commitments in these three areas will help produce a station that best serves the jazz community.

8925 MS VOGEL: Mr. Kerr, I'm sorry to interrupt you but you are past the 10 minutes so could you move to conclusion, please.

8926 MR. KERR: Thank you. I am in my final paragraph.

8927 A lot of people have been asking the question: What is smooth jazz?

8928 Well, the question has been asked for decades: What is jazz?

8929 While there is no simple answer it is certain that jazz is a musical form born in North America through the confluence of African, American, Caribbean and European cultures.

8930 Perhaps it is this hybrid origin that has enabled jazz to be embraced by so many different cultures from around the world and to incorporate so many different musical influences into its form. For jazz is flexible enough to integrate the samba and bossa nova of Brazil as well as the karnatic music of southern India. The Japanese shakuhachi and Egyptian oud are not out of place in a jazz ensemble. As a result, jazz is not only music that has spread throughout the world, it also appeals to diverse cultural communities here in Vancouver.

8931 Smooth jazz certainly reflects this multicultural aspect of the overall jazz idiom as witnessed by the significance of Latin, African and soul rhythms throughout smooth jazz recordings.

8932 We implore the Commission to respond to the enormous need and opportunity in Vancouver for a jazz-oriented radio station. This is a service whose time has come.

8933 Thank you.

8934 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Kerr.

8935 I will ask Commissioner Cram to question you.

8936 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you for coming here today, Mr. Kerr.

8937 The Coastal Jazz & Blues Society, how long has it been around?

8938 MR. KERR: We were incorporated, registered as a public society, in 1986.

8939 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Because the Jazz Festival was the same year. Didn't you start -- the Society started the Jazz Festival?

8940 MR. KERR: We first started doing our programming in 1985. We created and invented the Jazz Festival as well. You know, through the bureaucratic process it took us a little while to be registered, but our official registration was like March of 1986.

8941 COMMISSIONER CRAM: How many members are there in your society?

8942 MR. KERR: We have about 600 members.

8943 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Then you said you were president of the WestCan Jazz Society.

8944 MR. KERR: The WestCan Jazz Association.

8945 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay. What is that?

8946 MR. KERR: That is an association of non-profit jazz societies, such as Coastal Jazz & Blues, and jazz festival producers across western Canada or from B.C. to Manitoba. WestCan has been in existence since 1988. It is basically there to help facilitate networking co-operation amongst jazz festivals and societies across the west to advocate on behalf of jazz, et cetera.

8947 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Then is there an umbrella Canadian association?

8948 MR. KERR: That's right. That is Jazz Festivals Canada which had sort of its first significant meeting last November in Toronto and that covers jazz societies from coast to coast, everywhere from Rimouski to Halifax to Victoria.

8949 COMMISSIONER CRAM: One final question, Mr. Kerr. You said that we should look at three items: the commitment to play smooth jazz, CanCon and then a commitment to non-playlist or specialty jazz programming.

8950 What is it?

8951 MR. KERR: I guess I would define that as programming that, you know, focuses in maybe on a narrower range of programming outside of, say, smooth jazz overall. So you could have a special on the beebop era, and that could run, you know, for 10 years. But you could have an hour-long focus or a three-hour long program, or you could deal with new releases by Canadian jazz artists, for example. So stuff that would be outside the regular sort of playlists, regular rotation of a commercial station.

8952 Hopefully, that kind of programming, well: one, wouldn't be buried at 11 o'clock on a Sunday evening; and, two, would be given more than just an hour or two a week. I would hope that any smooth jazz station would provide a substantial -- you know, 10 or 12 hours of programming or more per week that would be dedicated to I guess the fuller spectrum of the music. You know, perhaps bringing in some outside hosts, some people outside of the regular sort of roster of announcers.

8953 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you. Thank you very much for coming here today.

8954 MR. KERR: You are welcome.

8955 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Madam Chair.

8956 THE CHAIRPERSON: I know you touched on this in your oral presentation and I don't know to what extent you can answer my question, but I am going to ask it anyway.

8957 Other than the recently licensed jazz station for Hamilton, which I don't think is yet on the air, there aren't any jazz stations in the country. To what extent will the licensing of a smooth jazz station effect an impact on the careers of Canadian jazz artists?

8958 What I am trying to get a sense of is to what extent is there already a stable of artists, we have heard a lot about it, for whom airplay may make really a difference in their careers overall?

8959 MR. KERR: I think there is a huge stable of artists that are dying for airplay, dying for significant airplay, for which it would make a really big difference in their careers because, it is interesting, over the last -- jazz has been alive and well in Canada for many, many years, for many decades, but certainly over the course of the last 15 years there has been an explosion in terms of the development of major jazz festivals in almost every city across the country. Every medium to large city in the country has a major jazz festival that is one of the primary events in the community. That has certainly helped to spur the development of local Canadian artists and national Canadian artists and it has provided a touring network, performance network for local artists, a touring network for artists to go, you know, coast to coast.

8960 The Canada Council would reinforce that. You know, 15 years ago they didn't have a jazz category. They do now have an officer that is dedicated to jazz and world and folk music. So we have kind have been lumped in all of that, but we weren't even given really lip service before. There is still a long way to go, but that is another story.

8961 Anyway, the amount of support that the Canada Council has put behind jazz and touring jazz artists has certainly increased dramatically over the years. So I think that is a good indicator of how things have developed from a national perspective, along with what has been happening with the festivals across the country. And you can look at the number of recordings jazz artists have produced and have released over the last several years, and it is enormous, Canadian jazz artists producing high quality recordings. They don't have a significant outlet for those recordings to be heard.

8962 In Vancouver, as I mentioned, there is just some really marginal programming. Some great programming, but it is not heard by a lot of people. I think that is the case in practically every city across the country.

8963 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Thank you for taking the time to come here today.

8964 MR. KERR: You are welcome. I have copies of my submission, by the way.

--- Pause / pause

8965 MS VOGEL: Our next intervenor is Canadian Parents for French, the British Columbia branch. Would you come forward, please.

8966 THE CHAIRPERSON: Welcome back.

8967 MR. DIX: Thank you. I have never gone to one of these in my life and now in two in two months. It is extraordinary.

8968 THE CHAIRPERSON: I wonder, if you have copies, perhaps you could distribute them ahead of time and then we can follow.

8969 MR. DIX: No problem.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

8970 MR. DIX: Good morning. Thank you very much for giving me and our organization the opportunity to participate in what we consider to be a very important licence hearing.

8971 We strongly support the application of Radio-Canada to provide la Chaîne culturelle service on the 94.5 frequency FM in Vancouver.

8972 Canadian Parents for French was founded in 1977, and is the national network dedicated to the promotion and creation of French second language learning opportunities for young Canadians. B.C. has more CPF members -- some 4500 parent/volunteers -- than any other province organized in 47 chapters across the province. Nationally, there are 160 CFP chapters representing 12,000 members from Vancouver Island to Newfoundland.

8973 In August, CPF released a major report entitled "The State of French Language Education in Canada." The report, conceived as the first in an annual series of publications, is a cross-country check-up into French-second-language education, identifying areas of strength and areas for action at the federal, provincial and local level.

8974 The report showed that British Columbia is the only province in Canada where the number of students studying the French language increased in the 1990s. Today, there are 30,000 students in French immersion programs in 47 districts across B.C. A further 250,000 students study core French in elementary and high schools. More than half of these students live within the broadcast range of la Chaîne culturelle's application.

8975 This reflects the substantial grassroots support for French language education in British Columbia. The French immersion program provides an excellent, high quality education. In addition, the volunteer parents of Canadian Parents for French organize festivals, public speaking opportunities, cultural activities and summer camps to give students of French as a second language the chance to practice outside of the classroom. As the report notes, such activities are critical to the success of immersion programs in particular, given the dominance of the English language in the economic and social life of. The importance of radio and television services to this French second language educational community is significant.

8976 In my own case, I probably learn more French listening to Radio-Canada, listening, in my case, to broadcasts of the Montreal Canadians and the Montreal Expos in my youth than I did in the classroom. They helped buttress my capacity to learn French, however modest that may be.

8977 I wanted to talk a little bit about the market because I think some of the intervenors have suggested -- or some of the other applicants have suggested that the market is small in British Columbia. We care to disagree with that assessment.

8978 There are 61,000 British Columbians with French as a first language. There are 250,000 bilingual British Columbians, French and English. Above and above all that, there are 280,000 students, as I just mentioned, working to learn French. This does not include many students enrolled in French post-secondary classes in communities across the province.

8979 The majority of this potential market lives in the lower mainland. Every community in the lower mainland radio market has a large French immersion and core French program. As well, the francophone community plays a dynamic role in the cultural life of this region that reaches well beyond the French language community.

8980 I would say that Canada is a bilingual country. French and English are its official languages. But the role of the French language in B.C.'s society is more than a legal construct. With 250,000 people able to speak French, with tens of thousands of students and parents working and making the sacrifices to learn French, the dynamic role of a francophone community -- what I would suggest to you is that the French is a vital element "sur le terrain" in British Columbia, as well as in our constitution, the constitution of our country.

8981 The programming provided by la Chaîne culturelle will reach and contribute to a real and growing part of our life.

8982 In addition, I believe this programming is unique and of high quality and would reach a market well beyond the French-language community to all residents interested in arts programming.

8983 The second point I just wanted to raise today is this application and the Broadcasting Act. I would like to draw your attention to two provisions of that Act. In particular, 3(1)K, which says that:

"...a range of broadcasting services in English and in French shall be extended to all Canadians as resources become available."

8984 And too, 3(1)I(1), which says:

"The programming provided by the Canadian broadcasting system should be varied and comprehensive, providing a balance of information, enlightenment and entertainment for men, women and children of all ages, interests and tastes."

8985 These two provisions of the Broadcasting Act underline our message to the CRTC. In British Columbia, radio service in French is limited to one channel and some community programming. While the service provided by Radio-Canada, 97.7 FM, is excellent, it does not come close to being sufficient to meet the standards set out in the Act.

8986 I am sure that the Commission has precise ways of defining what a "radio market" is. For me, it is what I can find when I search on my 15-year old car radio. It is a pretty good radio. In Burnaby where I live here, or in New Westminster where CPF-BC has its offices.

8987 On my radio you can hear 26 different radio stations: 23 are in English, two are multilingual, and one is in French. Three of the 26 stations are public broadcasters. This does not include stations from Washington State, such as Sports Radio and others, which have a share of our market.

8988 There are a wide variety of existing opportunities in English for the radio audience of the lower mainland. Adding another English language station, as good as some of the applications may be, will not significantly impact audience choice. In French it is clear what the effect will be: adding another station will double audience choice.

8989 Moreover, la Chaîne culturelle will offer jazz, new music, classical music and give access to music produced from every corner of the world. It will provide many of the kinds of radio programming found in the other applications.

8990 It is important to recognize also the opportunities this application will provide to artists in the Vancouver region. It will not only give artists in Vancouver the opportunity to hear and be inspired by the work of others. It will also underline the importance of the west coast as a production centre for Radio Canada. It will provide a showcase for Vancouver to the rest of Canada.

8991 In conclusion, I wanted to say that this application provides an enormous option, an extraordinary and unique one for the francophone community, those who have learned French, and those many young people who are attempting to learn French today.

8992 In British Columbia, young people wishing to become bilingual are faced with a significant challenge. In addition to the effort required by parents, teachers and students in the school system, students must operate in a largely English atmosphere outside of school. Encouraging bilingualism in young people has been an element of national policy for decades now, and the value of French language radio and television services to our members and their children is enormous.

8993 This application process also provides a unique opportunity for Radio-Canada to meet it obligations to the Commission and for the Commission to meet its obligations under the Broadcasting Act. The Commission demanded in Decision 2000-2 that Radio-Canada extend la Chaîne culturelle service to at least 50 per cent of francophones, the francophone population in each province.

8994 What we are asking the CRTC to do is to give British Columbians access to a service that we pay for and have paid for the last 25 years. It is about time, frankly, that Radio-Canada made a serious effort to bring this station to the lower mainland and we are glad to see it.

8995 What we are asking the CRTC to do in deciding this application process is to apply the Act. The Act states clearly that a:

"...range of broadcasting services in English and in French shall be provided as resources become available."

8996 The resources have in fact become available in the lower mainland of B.C. There is a frequency available, 94.5. The outstanding programming provided by la Chaîne culturelle is available. The Broadcasting Act and the Official Languages Act are clear. The market is large and dynamic. La Chaîne culturelle will contribute enormously to the cultural and educational life of our region.

8997 It is time that the CRTC gave the Vancouver region, the lower mainland, its second French language radio station.

8998 Canadian Parents for French-BC is proud to support this application.

8999 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Dix.

9000 I believe Commissioner Demers has some questions.

9001 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Thank you, Madam Chair.

9002 Good morning, sir. I don't know if you had a chance to follow last week's hearing, especially on --

9003 M. DIX: Un peu sur l'Internet.

9004 CONSEILLER DEMERS: Sur Internet?

9005 M. DIX: Oui.

9006 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Okay. I don't know if you have further comments on the fact that -- the frequency that is being requested by CBC is high powered, as we say, is the last frequency in Vancouver so there were many suggestions that CBC use other frequencies, another frequency, and leave that one for the commercial operators. Would you have comments on that?

9007 MR. DIX: I would say this. We have a broadcasting system that is intended to be, that is legally supposed to be, a mixture of public and private English and French. I don't think that three public stations in the lower mainland is too many, considering the number of private stations existing. I don't think going to four is imposing on the market too extravagantly, nor do I think that one French language station in British Columbia -- when the public broadcaster and the taxpayer essentially provides two services, going from one to two imposes too much on the market.

9008 And I think the most common suggestion has been to move CBC's la Première chaîne I think from FM to AM and reduce its reach so that CBC or Radio-Canada could then move this service on to its existing thing at 97.7. My view of that is that that would be a step backwards in fact because it would reduce the reach of la Première chaîne which has an audience. Some people who would be able to actually have access to French language broadcasting today would be denied that.

9009 Secondly, I don't think that public broadcasting or French language broadcasting but especially public broadcasting should be receiving scraps off the table. This is something that is supported broadly by Canadians. I think that when you look at the marketplace, I don't think it is fair to say that we have too much public broadcasting in Canada.

9010 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Thank you.

9011 There was also a few suggestions that CBC could use an AM frequency. Do you have comments on that?

9012 MR. DIX: That is one of the suggestions. I think that the suggestions, the ones that I have heard anyway, and I am not an expert on reach or radio frequencies or anything like that, but I think clearly the suggestions sound gimmicky to me.

9013 This is an opportunity to provide la Chaîne culturelle on a service that people in this region can hear. I don't think that reducing the reach, which moving the other station would almost inevitably do as I understand it, at least considering the options -- after all the major private broadcasters are not saying, "Oh, we will vacate CKNW or something for la Première chaîne", they are not saying that; they are talking about less attractive options on AM -- I don't think that is a good idea.

9014 In fact, I think what you have here is an opportunity to fulfil what should happen under the law and under -- I'm saying in addition that there is a substantial market for la Chaîne culturelle here.

9015 All of radio is after all, almost all of it, is a specialized market, and this is of course a specialized market: those who can understand or want to listens to arts programming. But that is true of all the applications. I think it is a terrific opportunity for the CRTC to provide this to both the francophone community and the community at large.

9016 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Thank you.

9017 The programming on la Chaîne culturelle is predominantly at least broadcast or put on the air from "far away", quote/unquote. Do you have comments on that, that is, especially the fact that a very small portion, to use a word, would originate from Vancouver?

9018 MR. DIX: A couple of the programs on la Chaîne culturelle which will be on the air are from Vancouver, including a very significant jazz program which isn't, I don't think, on at 11 o'clock at night, it is on in prime radio time, and it is a terrific program. So I think what it does is it enhances Vancouver as a production centre for Radio-Canada and it gives the opportunity for artists here, and for Vancouver and for the francophone community and the broader community that supports it or is interested in learning French, an opportunity to express itself to the rest of Canada, just as it gives the rest of Canada an opportunity to express itself in Vancouver.

9019 You know, I mean one could make the case that a lot of radio stations want to bring the culture of the United States into Vancouver life, that what is defined as "local programming" is in fact imported American programming, both on television and on radio. So I think there obviously Canadian content provisions.

9020 But this application really is 100 per cent Canadian content. The CBC meets the test that all private broadcasters try to meet because it has the resources. It doesn't have the same fiscal demands. It has the resources.

9021 So I don't know. I think it is a great thing in this country to give people in Vancouver the opportunity to express themselves and be heard in Quebec City, and I think it is a great thing in this country for people in Quebec City to be able to express themselves and be heard in Vancouver. That is part of what this application is about. I don't see that as a negative thing at all.

9022 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Thank you very much.

9023 Thank you, Madam Chair.

9024 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Cardozo.

9025 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you, Madam Chair.

9026 My question is in regards to the core group of who your organization works for. As you say on page 2, it is a:

"...national network dedicated to the promotion and creation of French second language learning opportunities for young Canadians."

9027 MR. DIX: Yes.

9028 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I am quite familiar with the work of your organization over the years. Indeed, you have made the case and the applicant has made the case fairly clearly that this service would, I suppose the way I could put it is, strengthen the infrastructure for "la francophonie" in this region.

9029 But I am wondering, if we are talking about young Canadians, to what extent young children and people would listen to this channel, whether you see it as a direct benefit for young Canadians who would benefit, those who want to or who are either now or are interested in learning French, or whether it is more an indirect benefit where it strengthens the overall infrastructure and their parents and so forth are benefitted by that, and so there is more sort of French stuff around the house and in the car and that kind of stuff.

9030 MR. DIX: I think it is both. I think it is up to Radio-Canada to present programming that its audience and its potential audience is interested in. I think some of the programming on la Chaîne culturelle would be of interest to young people and is of interest to young people. I think that we are hoping as an organization, we believe as an organization, that Radio-Canada, outside of central Canada, needs to reach that audience and work with that audience.

9031 So I think there is a direct benefit in the programming provided, and I think there is an indirect benefit, as you say, in the broader cultural life of the province. I think the fact is it is an extraordinary thing that really volunteers have built a system of French language education in this province in communities. These have been all community decisions.

9032 And, you know, for all the people talk about what people think in British Columbia, or what they believe they think in British Columbia, real people, real volunteers on the ground built these programs. And these kinds of things outside of school provide a support. I would like to see other supports, by the way.

9033 Rogers in this region, for a couple of years, had MusiquePlus on the air on TV and then one day without talking to anybody -- it had an audience, by the way, it had a significant audience geared to young people -- one day without talking to anyone they just pulled it and put something else in there.

9034 So, yes, I would like to see some other supports as well, on TV in particular, and we have presented to the CRTC on that question.

9035 But I should say that this will be one of the building blocks of that and it gives us, rather than one station, two. It doubles our efforts on radio, but it is not the only place that we have to build obviously.

9036 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So for CPF here in B.C., you do think that television, whether it is MusiquePlus or other children's programming in French, that that is part of what is needed?

9037 MR. DIX: I can tell you from personal experience it is what is needed. I think it is also important on television, and this is a separate question outside this hearing, but I think it is very important on television to give people the opportunity to see French language programming that young people are interested in.

9038 I think you are suggesting perhaps that la Chaîne culturelle isn't the ideal young person's station, as may be the case with others.

9039 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I made no suggestions. I only ask the questions.

9040 MR. DIX: Well, no, that's the question. That's the question. I think that is partly true, although some of the programming certainly meets the test and it provides a greater variety.

9041 But on television, yes, Réseau des sports should be available in British Columbia, I think; MusiquePlus should be available in British Columbia. They will find an audience.

9042 There isn't any reason, you know, given technological improvements, why that couldn't be the case. It was the case here, and an arbitrary decision by a private broadcaster pulled it off, a distribution undertaking, just pulled it off the air without any consultation, which I think was tragic because that station, MusiquePlus, reached that audience. And there was significant protest, including from our organization, of that decision.

9043 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thanks for your answers.

9044 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I think really most things were covered here.

9045 I think that the other issues we talked about in another proceeding, and things are never as simple as they appear when channels go off and on the air, so --

9046 MR. DIX: Yes.

9047 THE CHAIRPERSON: -- I think we will be dealing with those in a separate proceeding.

9048 I want to thank you very much once again for coming before us. It is very important that organizations and community groups here take the time, and I appreciate that you have done so.

9049 Thank you.

9050 MR. DIX: Thank you very much.

9051 MS VOGEL: Our next intervenor is the Union of British Columbia Indian Chiefs. Chief Stewart Phillip, would you come forward, please.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

9052 MR. PHILLIP: Madam Chair, Commissioners, CRTC staff and members of the public, before proceeding with my brief remarks I will take a moment to recognize the Cosalish people upon whose traditional territory I am speaking here today.

9053 Secondly, I would like to give you some background on the organization that I represent.

9054 The Union of B.C. Indian Chiefs is the oldest native political organization in the province of B.C. We represent approximately 40 to 45 per cent of the native communities within the province.

9055 I am the President of the Union of B.C. Indian Chiefs. As well, I am the Chief of the Penticton Indian Band, which is a member of the Okanogan Nation, and I have some 26 years of experience in native politics. I am entering my third term as Chief of the Penticton Band and have served on the Band Council for some 16 years. I have quite a depth of knowledge of native issues and what has taken place in Indian country, so to speak, in the last number of decades.

9056 I am pleased to be here today to speak to you about the radio licence applications you are considering for Vancouver. Our letter of support fully endorsed an application for a native radio station in Vancouver. But I also signed a Petition of Support which, as you know, clearly stated endorsement of both the Aboriginal Voices Radio, AVR, licence application and the application of the their corporate partner Newcap Broadcasting.

9057 The historic significance of such a unique aboriginal and non-aboriginal arrangement was quite obvious to us. We understood its significance and that it is the first proposal of its kind for the Canadian broadcasting system and provides a creative business-oriented way for an aboriginal radio network to receive a solid healthy launch.

9058 I am here on behalf of aboriginal people who are frustrated. There is no relevant radio. Generally, our experience, as aboriginal people, with commercial broadcasters is unpleasant at best. The frequent stereotypes of native life and culture continue to fill the Vancouver airwaves. Our issues and interests are seldom recognized let alone portrayed from our perspective. There are daily judgments of us by mainstream media.

9059 It is such an exceptional circumstance that provides me with the opportunity to appear before you today. On behalf of the UBCIC, I enthusiastically support the proposal of Newcap Broadcasting to work closely with Aboriginal Voices Radio in the transfer of management expertise and both financial and professional support as they work together as industry associates. This follows the advice of the Conference Board of Canada that encourages Canadian businesses to tap into the energy, enthusiasm and imagination of aboriginal people.

9060 It is interesting that it is a small company from Newfoundland that is reaching out to our aboriginal people. We welcome their efforts and encourage their steps towards building bridges between the aboriginal world and the mainstream Canadian broadcast business.

9061 In assessing our support for this corporation's bold proposal, we have learned that it is a very community-spirited broadcaster in places it has radio stations in other parts of Canada. Its hiring practices meet the federal regulations regarding employment equity and they promise to do even better than that: to hire people so their radio staff will reflect the reality of the local Vancouver and area population. That suggests to me employment opportunities for our aboriginal youth. That is in addition to the jobs it will help create by its support for the Aboriginal Voices Radio Network.

9062 It seems to me there is a great opportunity here for you to do the right thing and help us to break through the wall of resistance that exists in the local Vancouver media.

9063 It is local programming that either ignores us or is strongly offensive to our people, some of it deliberate. This is symptomatic of smug and complacent broadcasters. There is an obvious resistance to change here. It is illustrated in the resistance to accept the new immigrants even though there are many third-generation Asian peoples living here.

9064 Of course there is a resistance to respect the aboriginal peoples and their diverse cultures in their own homelands. If it delivers on its promises, then I believe Newcap Broadcasting is offering more than money, more than the $4.2 million to Aboriginal Voices Radio. It would provide us all with an opportunity to create meaningful change in the lives of people in Vancouver by beginning to reflect the real Vancouver.

9065 Now the lopsided reporting on aboriginal rights issues is disruptive, destructive and reflects the downright racist radio. It is obvious to me that radio here needs to be shaken up. Perhaps if Newcap brings its philosophy of new voices and new perspectives, along with its bold new venture with Aboriginal Voices Radio, then others will get the message. The message is: we cannot accept the status quo any longer.

9066 I am hopeful that you, the people who are able to make a difference, will no longer allow it to continue. These new voices that would come from Newcap's radio station provide promise and hope to me that we would have an opportunity for balanced news coverage in a city where most media leans so far to the right that at times you might think we were right back at the turn of a different century: the 1900s.

9067 The applications you are considering make a lot of sense to me: aboriginal and private broadcasters working together, proposing an initiative to help the aboriginal community fast track the creation of better communications here and nationally. I think it makes sense because it helps you to fulfil your mandate, it helps you to demonstrate how the Government of Canada is walking the talk of its own legislation and policies.

9068 As you search for guidance in your deliberations may you be reminded that despite their treatment, despite being last to share in this country's wealth, aboriginal people hold a special place in Canada.

9069 What is the right decision? There can be no doubt, as the Petition of Support stated clearly, the Broadcast Act says so, the Canadian broadcasting system should, through its programming and the employment opportunities arising out of its operation, serve the needs and interests and reflect the circumstances and aspirations and the special place of our aboriginal peoples. The Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples, RCAP, says it; "Canada is gathering strength", the policy responding to RCAP says it; today, on behalf of the Union of B.C. Indian Chiefs, I am saying it:

9070 Aboriginal people are anxious to move forward in our efforts for cultural renewal and restoration. To do it we have special needs and circumstances. We need effective communications and the sooner the better.

9071 We also have unique rights that have been recognized in the constitution and in law. Surely, it is very clear that our needs and our rights should be given special and appropriate consideration by the CRTC. Surely, it is very clear that this is the time.

9072 Thank you for your time and consideration.

9073 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Chief Phillip. We are very grateful that you have taken the time to come before us today and to help inform our decision in this proceeding.

9074 I just have a couple of questions. Your position is very clear, so I don't have clarifications on where you stand.

9075 Are you aware of the opposition, opposing intervention, that has been filed by Northern Native Broadcasting Corporation to AVR? They have opposed AVR, given that they are Northern Native, saying they are a British Columbia based radio broadcaster with an intention to serve this market.

9076 We are interested in hearing from B.C. native organizations like yourself, if you have any comment on that intervention.

9077 MR. PHILLIP: I suppose the comment that I have is that I think there is a very obvious need for a stronger aboriginal voice in this area, in the province and nationally, generally. I think aboriginal people in this country confront some very difficult issues and those issues aren't properly represented in mainstream media.

9078 Here in British Columbia we are in a very difficult position with unresolved land claims issues. The only media attention we get is when there is a crisis. I think that there needs to be greater public commentary on the issues so there is a greater appreciation and understanding of the issues. In that regard, I think that there has to be room made in the marketplace for not just a single broadcasting entity. This one here that we are supporting is one that is targeting the Vancouver areas and hoping for growth nationally.

9079 Northern Native Broadcasting is Northern Native Broadcasting. I had worked with Northern Native Broadcasting in terms of being interviewed by them on a regular basis, but in my own community in Penticton we are not able to receive their broadcasts and whatnot, so we need expansion.

9080 THE CHAIRPERSON: One other question. In particular, I think, we are interested in hearing from, again, the local native organizations with respect to this application. There is a very small commitment on the part of AVR to local programming for the local market. When I say that I don't -- I mean it is possible they may expand it, certainly that is in their plans, but in terms of our licensing procedures the requirement would be very modest.

9081 I want to ensure that you are aware of that going forward and knowledgeable that there won't be obligations put on them by us with respect to any programming, either local, directed to the local audience, or even obligating them to broadcast Vancouver-originated programming. I wonder if you could give me any comments on that.

9082 MR. PHILLIP: Again, I believe that silence on the issues is very detrimental to our people and to our communities. We don't have the luxury of sitting here saying that we want an additional licence in this area. Anything is an improvement. The status quo is not acceptable. We are in dire need of a greater voice and, you know, would be very grateful for that opportunity.

9083 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Again, I very much appreciate, all of us do, that you have taken the time to come and appear before us and inform our decision. Thank you.

9084 MR. PHILLIP: Thank you very much.

9085 MS VOGEL: Madam Chair, for the record I will be calling two intervenors to come to the table together, that will be Toronto Downtown Jazz Society and Capital Region Race Relations Association.

9086 Although they are going to be at the table together, they will be presenting separate interventions and will be available for questioning each in their turn.

9087 So would Toronto Downtown Jazz Society and the Capital Region Race Relations Association please come forward.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

9088 MR. COUGHLIN: Good morning, Madam Chair, Commissioners and CRTC staff.

9089 My name is Joe Coughlin, and I'm appearing here today on behalf of Patrick Taylor, who is the co-founder and Executive Producer of the Toronto Downtown Jazz Festival.  Mr. Taylor had a scheduling conflict today and asked me to appear on his behalf.

9090 First of all, I would like to thank the Commission for this opportunity to appear as an intervenor in support of the Newcap application for a licence to operate a smooth jazz station here in Vancouver.

9091 Secondly, I would like to preface my remarks today. The first portion of my presentation will be a distillation of a recent conversation I had with Mr. Taylor. In addition to his comments, he has given me permission to add some of my own perspectives as an award winning broadcaster and jazz musician, also in support of the Newcap application.

9092 Mr. Taylor has been involved with the Canadian jazz scene for over 15 years. The Toronto Jazz Festival is entering its 15th year. The 10-day event attracts over 700,000 people and has been referred to as Canada's most comprehensive jazz festival by the media.

9093 I have had the opportunity to appear at the festival on three separate occasions during its 15-year history. The festival is a great venue for canadian artists and has introduced some of this talent to a larger international audience.

9094 The Toronto Downtown Jazz Festival has also booked many local Vancouver artists that are established performers and will continue to watch the local scene for emerging new artists as well.

9095 Historically, jazz music in Canada has been underserviced by mainstream radio. Most exposure for Canadian jazz artists tends to be on non-commercial radio outlets and relegated to late night or weekend programming hours.

9096 As a result, most Canadian jazz recording artists are forced to move south of the border to make a living. With the development of the smooth jazz format in the U.S., some of our own jazz artists have received more U.S. airplay than they do in Canada. This is sad. It is to be hoped that with the proliferation of smooth jazz formats in this country, we can grow our own talent, keep them here in this country and help create stars.

9097 The recent licensing of a new smooth jazz format station in Hamilton, Ontario was exciting news to Mr. Taylor and his colleagues at the Toronto Downtown Jazz Society. The new Hamilton station will contribute to the development of a viable jazz scene in Canada. It is good for Canadian jazz.

9098 Mr. Taylor is also excited about the possible licensing of a new smooth jazz station in Vancouver. He believes the introduction of the station will be a turning point in the development of a jazz infrastructure in Canada. The new station will significantly boost exposure for Canadian jazz artists and enhance the development of a genre of music

largely unsupported by Canadian radio.

9099 Mr. Taylor supports the Newcap application for the following reasons.

9100 First, Newcap's contribution to Factor of $700,000 will support the development of a consistent pool of Canadian and Vancouver based jazz talent.

9101 Second, Newcap will support the Vancouver International Jazz Festival with a contribution of $700,000.

9102 Third, Newcap will contribute $637,000 to produce live showcases of local musicians in local venues. These live performances will be recorded and released as a compilation CD sampler. The samplers are a great way for emerging artists to have a sample of their work ready to put into the hands of local club owners or booking agents. They can also provide a needed additional source of income from writing, publishing, performance and mechanical royalties.

9103 Fourth, Newcap has proven itself to be a long time friend of the jazz community in Canada through the promotional and financial support it has provided the Toronto Jazz Festival and the Halifax and Edmonton Jazz Festivals, where it has a strong local presence in the market.

9104 Fifth, Mr. Taylor has a long professional association with Mr. Bob Templeton, the president of Newcap Broadcasting.

9105 Mr. Taylor assured me that his dealings with Mr. Templeton and Newcap have been of the highest standard, and that if the Commission issues the licence to Newcap, the jazz community in Canada will be well served because they will meet all of their commitments, and then some.

9106 I would now like to take a few minutes to express why I believe the Commission should issue the licence to Newcap.

9107 I have been a jazz recording artist since 1980. I have four CDs to my credit. All have garnered critical praise and modest commercial success. My latest effort is called Simple Pleasures. I have a copy of it with me today and I certainly appreciate any airplay that you folks can give me. It was released in September on the Unity Jazz label and is distributed nationally by Page Music and Oasis Entertainment. The release of this CD won me Male Vocalist of the Year award honours this year from The Jazz Report, an internationally respected Canadian jazz publication.

9108 As a result of my recording career, I have played live shows at many of the jazz festivals and clubs in Canada and the U.S.

9109 In 1995, I moved to the west coast after a 15-year stint in Toronto. I have been living and working on Vancouver Island as a jazz musician, and as an advocate for people with disabilities. Specifically, I work on enhancing employment opportunities for people with disabilities in British Columbia.

9110 I'll speak to you today from both of those perspectives.

9111 The biggest issue for most Canadian jazz artists is how we get exposure in our own country. As I mentioned earlier, most of the exposure we get on radio is either on public non-commercial radio or late at night. Without the support of Canadian radio, jazz music has and will remain on the fringes of mainstream commercial success.

9112 I see a lot of merit in Newcap's application. I am excited about their initiatives to increase exposure for Canadian jazz artists both on commercial mainstream radio and through their support of live performances.

9113 Equally important, I like the fact that Newcap is a new player in the market. This helps artists like myself, because the greater the number of gatekeepers, the greater our chances for airplay. If the Commission gives the licence to an existing player, artists face the same barriers to entry that they have always faced in this market because it's the same old, same old.

9114 Now let me take off my jazz artist hat and replace it with my advocate hat.

9115 As a person with a disability, I have faced many barriers to career advancement. In the early days of my career, I had a lot of trouble visiting radio stations to promote various recording projects. A lot of live performance venues are also located in places that are not kind to wheelchairs. Despite these obstacles, I have had success, due in part to a strong family and employers who were willing to look past my disability and focus on my talent.

9116 I also have a degree in broadcast journalism and have worked in radio and television. I have anchored two television series for both CTV and CBC. I won the first ACTRA Into the Mainstream award in 1990 for my positive portrayal of under-represented groups in media.

9117 As I have witnessed, people with disabilities are still severely under-represented in mainstream radio and television.

9118 Newcap will address this by meeting an employment equity commitment that goes significantly beyond federal employment equity requirements. The federal regulation calls for a level of representation among members of designated groups equal to their representation in the workforce, while Newcap is proposing representation equal to their representation in the population at large. As a result, from the first day of operations, representation of designated groups at Newcap's proposed station will exceed federal regulations by 50 to 75 per cent.

9119 This may not seem like a big deal to the average Canadian, but I assure you it is a very big deal if you are a woman, a visible minority, an aboriginal person, or a person with a disability.

9120 Newcap's support of the Aboriginal Voices Radio Network is an additional commitment that speaks to the inclusion of another under-represented group in mainstream broadcasting.

9121 As a jazz artist with a disability, I have a twofold interest in the award of this new licence to Newcap Broadcasting.

9122 First, I support their efforts to improve exposure opportunities for Canadian jazz artists.

9123 Second, I am all in favour of their commitment to increase the employment picture in mainstream broadcasting for historically under-represented groups.

9124 Madame Chair, I believe that the Newcap application will best serve the interests of Canadian jazz artists and qualified individuals from the designated groups who have historically been shut out of mainstream broadcasting.

9125 Newcap's application will help create a viable jazz business in Canada and foster a more diverse workplace. Newcap's support of the Aboriginal Voices Radio Network is unique and will launch the careers of many aboriginal people who up until now just didn't fit into the Canadian media scene.

9126 Once again, thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today. If you have any questions, I would be happy to answer them at this time.

9127 THE CHAIRPERSON: We might as well do the question now.

9128 Commissioner Cram has some questions for you.

9129 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you.

9130 Mr. Coughlin, we had a hearing a couple of weeks ago in Calgary. Maybe it is flattery or maybe it isn't, but I heard very good news about the impact that the Hamilton station is having already. I was actually hoping that your friend Mr. Taylor would have been here so he could tell us -- do you have any information about how that station is doing and the impact on artists?

9131 MR. COUGHLIN: Having lived in that market for 15 years, I certainly have a lot of friends back there that are pretty excited about the fact that they have a mainstream commercial radio station. I have had some compositions get exposure in mainstream commercial radio over the years, but for the most part when I do this kind of jazz music I don't get a lot of daytime airplay. So it is really nice to have at least something started in that market that gets into Toronto from Hamilton because I have had pretty good luck with Hamilton radio for my career.

9132 COMMISSIONER CRAM: You were talking about air time. What has struck me I guess in this hearing is the issue of you can do a compilation CD, you can do a CD of all of your stuff, but what is more important: air time or a compilation CD or a CD with all your own stuff?

9133 MR. COUGHLIN: I think it is a combination of all those things, Commissioner. Certainly, airplay does help generate some royalties for you if you write your own compositions, which I do. You know, I get cheques now after 20 years of being in the business that are actually cashable.

9134 So I think that is certainly an important element to the establishment of -- you know, I have been in the business since the seventies and was certainly on the forefront of Canadian content regulations. I used to bang on the doors of a lot of radio stations across the country saying: This is a Canadian record but it is also a good record so please play it. As a result of that, we started getting some nice SOCAN cheques.

9135 I think it is essential for the careers of a lot of musicians in this country to get exposure in their own country as opposed to heading down south, getting the star system to work for you down there and then coming back to Canada as a big celebrity. I mean, we have seen way too many artists in the country do that.

9136 COMMISSIONER CRAM: You talked in your paper today of the issue of if we gave a licence to an existing player artists face the same barriers to entry that they have always faced in this market because it is the same old, same old. Even if it is another applicant for a smooth jazz format?

9137 MR. COUGHLIN: M'hm.

9138 COMMISSIONER CRAM: If we licensed any smooth jazz format, wouldn't that be good news for smooth jazz artists?

9139 MR. COUGHLIN: Well, certainly. On the other hand, though, it is always nice to have a new player in town, that you can go and bang on their door and bother them for awhile to get some airplay.

9140 Realistically, I think if you get turned down once by a program director, the chances are they are going to turn you down a second time. It would be important for us to have another avenue for us to go to here in Vancouver too. I live in Victoria, by the way, on Vancouver Island but I do get into this market quite often.

9141 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you. Thank you very much for coming.

9142 MR. COUGHLIN: My pleasure.

9143 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you, Madam Chair.

9144 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Maybe what we will do is hear from Ms Dhillon.

9145 MR. COUGHLIN: Sure.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

9146 MS DHILLON: Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, Commission staff, broadcasters and members of the public, I would also like to acknowledge the Cosalish traditional territories on which we are meeting today.

9147 My name is Harinder Dhillon, and I am here to support the application of Newcap Broadcasting.

9148 I am the Coordinator of the Capital Region Race Relations Association. We are the first of its kind anti-racism support services centre in North America and have been the recipient of two awards, one by the Attorney General in 1999, and this year a Building Safer Communities Award from the Women's Equality Ministry and the B.C. Yukon Transition House Societies.

9149 We have established something called the Community Coalition Against Racism in Victoria. It consists of over 40 organizations with its members ranging from: student groups, women's groups, unions, human rights organizations, and front line workers. It has taken on fairly controversial social justice issues such as: the fine line between free speech versus hate speech, asylum seekers versus economic refugees, and aboriginal deaths in police custody.

9150 The Race Relations Association has also made appearances before the Commission on previous occasions to support significant initiatives in the broadcasting field: at the Vancouver hearings this year for a Victoria television licence and a multi-lingual programming licence for the lower mainland; as well, we have participated in CRTC roundtable discussions regarding community access and participation in the CRTC process.

9151 We are especially interested in the development of truly inclusive media which reflects the diversity in our communities. When I say "inclusive media", I am speaking about how media can, and continues to, impact the lives of people of colour on a daily basis.

9152 I believe that your decision in this licensing process can make a significant difference for the vast audience that has no voice.

9153 For instance, here are a couple of examples that demonstrate the media's failure to serve the public interest.

9154 The first case is well known in Vancouver's aboriginal community.

9155 A local commercial radio phone-in host was heard asking for listeners to call in as many stories that that had the negative stereotyping of the "lazy, drunken Indian".

9156 The outrage from the community which followed the news of this particular programming, was in fact lead by local native radio broadcasters from community station COOP radio, in part, probably, because they had some access to limited airwaves there. Now we are asking questions from the island, as well as I am sure local groups: why did the commercial radio station take no action against that hose? Why did the station think they could get away with such discrimination? And we must also then ask: how can such negative attitudes continue to be so easily promoted?

9157 The second example involves an ongoing coroner's inquest in Victoria, in which there is very little media coverage, either in Vancouver or on the island. In this case, an aboriginal man has died under mysterious circumstances involving police paramedics and healthcare professionals.

9158 These two example, and many others, lead us to wonder how to overcome systemic discrimination. The answer, in part, is actually rather straightforward: integrate ethnically diverse people into newsrooms and into each department within every media outlet.

9159 Listeners in Vancouver need to consistently hear these ethno-specific voices and their perspectives on the airwaves. It is this presence that will provide designated groups with a sense of belonging.

9160 Equity initiatives in any work site offers marginalized groups an opportunity to overcome employment barriers, thus resulting in staff diversity which becomes not only an asset to the employer but also to the listening community.

9161 The Newcap proposal in front of you is extremely compatible with progressive race relations policies. And most of us know that the four designated employment equity groups are: women, persons with disabilities, aboriginal people, and people of colour.

9162 Newcap is committed to a hiring policy that will reflect the actual make-up of each of these designated groups in the community at large. For example, if Newcap were to follow the federal guidelines, it would simply be required to hire no fewer than 30 per cent women. Because Newcap will reflect the actual make-up of society, it will be staffing no fewer than 50 per cent women. And Newcap will operate with this staff from all four of the employment equity groups from day one.

9163 I am also here to support Newcap's application because, through its approval, the Commission will be creating two new editorial voices in Vancouver, the second being the Vancouver Aboriginal Voices Radio.

9164 Both Newcap and AVR efforts will work together to bring balance to Vancouver media. In the case of AVR, the remedy has a national impact because the programming produced will heard across the country.

9165 Newcap's funding for an AVR news bureau in Vancouver, staffed by an aboriginal reporter, will definitely have a positive impact on Vancouver's understanding of aboriginal issues, stories and perspectives.

9166 Listeners are neglected by Vancouver radio stations. They have a right to be informed, and they have a need to understand.

9167 The Race Relations Association is encouraged by the partnership between AVR and Newcap, a partnership that will strengthen communities and build new relationships between aboriginal and non-aboriginal Canadians.

9168 The Commission should agree to license both Newcap and AVR, and not lose this opportunity to bring new voices to Vancouver airwaves.

9169 Commissioners, please make this a win-win for all Vancouver listeners.

9170 Thank you for your time and consideration this morning.

9171 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Dhillon. I believe Commissioner Cram has some questions.

9172 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you.

9173 Ms Dhillon, I wanted to first ask one thing. You are the Coordinator for the Capital Region Race Relations Association.

9174 MS DHILLON: Yes.

9175 COMMISSIONER CRAM: That is clearly in Victoria.

9176 MS DHILLON: Yes.

9177 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Is there such a thing, a similar association, here, meaning Vancouver?

9178 MS DHILLON: Not quite. Not quite. Even though we are an umbrella organization that is inclusive of aboriginal and new and established communities that want to address and look at issues related to racism. So we are unique in that we are not specifically for new immigrants or First Nations. We are inclusive to anybody that wants to engage with this issue. So when you are looking at racism you are looking at media, you are looking at policies, immigration, et cetera, education.

9179 We have created a site where that is welcome, that topic and that discussion is welcome.

9180 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So there is not a similar organization in Vancouver at all?

9181 MS DHILLON: Not someone that has the umbrella and has that mandate that is anti-racism specific. You are looking at immigrant-serving agencies. You are looking at aboriginal community specific services, but not again a drop-in safe site. So it is quite unique. And it has been recognized by international human rights commissions this summer in one of their resolutions -- I didn't mention that, but I am mentioning it now -- because of the uniqueness of the service that we provide.

9182 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So then when you talked about the Ministry of Women's Equality, this Building a Safer Community Award, I mean, that really had nothing to do with the media. Was it really sort of a violence issue against women?

9183 MS DHILLON: I think that the community started to pay attention to looking at: how race impacts, violence against women's issues, sexual assault, media-related issues, what gets covered, what doesn't, who gets to report, who gets to speak to these issues. Again, we are talking about -- when I mentioned that there is a community that has no voice, we are talking about critical social justice topics that are not adequately, you know, in depth sort of processed in the community with media. It tends to be done very quietly on the side amongst certain sort of activist groups and it stays there. It doesn't relate them or go out to the general mainstream community for a decent discussion on these topics.

9184 COMMISSIONER CRAM: In a perfect world, and let's say we were in that perfect world and there were three frequencies available, in other words, three sort of lines to the perfect world, how would we handle that? When we have a public broadcaster saying they are the priority, when we have people talking about multi-ethnic/multi-cultural issues, when we have people talking about youth and dealing with youth issues, how do we make that balance? Then of course there is the native -- they are public airwaves, but how do we make that balance, how do we achieve that balance?

9185 MS DHILLON: I think the mainstream community has a right to have really in-depth analysis around some very, very difficult issues, and that will involve youth, that will involve First Nations communities, it will involve ethno-cultural communities. I think it is a disservice to the mainstream community as well not to be able to access that kind of data and information to make some decent conclusions for themselves. They are influenced entirely by very right wing media moguls and their staff.

9186 I think in the perfect world you are going to make sure that all of it is covered adequately, you know. It is not an add-on. That is something that is ongoing and is sustained. It is not going to be set up to fail. That is why we like what the Newcap and the AVR relationship is doing here, which is sustaining a very much ongoing, successful voice for aboriginal communities, and that is crucial.

9187 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you. Thank you very much.

9188 MS DHILLON: You're welcome.

9189 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Madam Chair.

9190 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Commissioner Cram.

9191 Thank you both very much. We appreciate you taking the time to come and inform our deliberations.

9192 MS VOGEL: Madam Chair, I am going to call the next four intervenors to come forward at the same time.

9193 Again, they will each have separate presentations and will be available for questioning each in their own turn. This is basically an effort to cut down on commute time.

9194 I would invite J.A. Palmer & Associates, TerrifVic Jazz, Johnny Ferreira and Vince Mai to come forward at this time.

9195 THE CHAIRPERSON: Whenever you are ready.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

9196 MR. PALMER: Just before we start, I am going to be talking about two artists so I am just going to pass these along to you. You can take a look at them while I am talking, if you want.

9197 Thank you and good morning.

9198 My name is Alistair Palmer, and I have been involved in the music business in Vancouver for over twenty years in various capacities. This has included artist manager; independent music label manager; and one of the original founders CDIS, the Centre for Digital Imaging and Sound, now B.C.'s largest private educational institution in its field.

9199 I was also the publisher of the original Vancouver Who's Who In Music Directory, as well as the producer of printed tour programs for Liona Boyd, Loverboy and Bryan Adams.

9200 My interests have been in the artists, their music and the business itself.

9201 The smooth jazz and new adult contemporary radio station format that Newcap is proposing for Vancouver is long overdue. Vancouver has grown in both diversity of population and sophistication of musical tastes. As far as the music industry goes, Vancouver is the L.A. of Canada. We are a world-class recording destination with the likes of the Warehouse, of Bryan Adam's studio, Little Mountain Sound, and the late Bruce Fairbairn's Armoury Studio, to name a few. And we have long been known for a wealth of unique talent.

9202 On a world level, this has mainly been in rock, but there are also a great number of jazz-oriented players here, too, many of whom cut their teeth playing on sessions in these studios.

9203 Babyboomers, once the mainstay of the rock audience, are now turning to jazz and adult contemporary music. As this group ages, they seek music more in tune with their lifestyle but without the attitude. What we are experiencing now is the perfect coming together of an audience that is looking for a certain type of music, and the musicians who are making it.

9204 As an artist manager for over ten years, I have managed several acts, but two in particular are good examples of how important airplay, and domestic support is, and the consequences for artists who don't fit the standard formats in Canada. First, Crusoe is a adult contemporary artist with a unique pure voice, and the other is FARA, a new adult contemporary and jazz artist whose incredible voice reviewers have described as being in the same class as Whitney Houston and Mariah Carey. Yet both artists have fallen through the cracks of the Canadian radio formats.

9205 Crusoe has experienced success in Europe and in the U.S. At the annual Midem music conference in Cannes, France, I secured a $40,000 U.S. licensing deal for the GAS territories -- Germany, Austria, and Switzerland -- for Crusoe's debut album Back To The Wonderful. Unlike Canada, Germany had stations that were ready to play his music, and a market for his albums. But, to make a long story short, without radio airplay and charting in his own backyard in Canada, his credibility was diminished and the European interest waned.

9206 In the U.S., Crusoe got to number 22 on the Gavin Report radio charts, a major achievement, in the class of Billy Joel, Mariah Carey, Sting, Whitney Houston, Elton John, and Michael Bolton. But again in Canada -- nothing.

9207 Exposure from airplay is so critical to provide legitimacy, credibility and financial viability. And exposure is not always about the average listener. To serve as an example of what airplay can do, other than the average listener, from that brief chart climb in the U.S. Crusoe was heard by a music supervisor for Walt Disney. As a result, this man went out and bought Crusoe's CD and for two years kept trying to place his material. Ironically, only later when he moved to supervising the music for the then-number-one syndicated TV series in the world, Baywatch, did he find a home for several of Crusoe's songs.

9208 You see, the exciting thing in this business is you never know who is in the audience. And there is always that one person who can catapult an act to another level, who might not ever have been exposed to that artist, save for that radio exposure.

9209 The basis of any recording career is airplay. Airplay is like advertising, advertising an artist couldn't otherwise afford to buy. With more exposure, comes more demand. With more radio play, comes more record sales. With more sales, more success. And so it goes. But it always starts with airplay.

9210 My other artist, FARA, is an aboriginal woman with an amazing voice, the looks, and the stage presence of a star. She has performed on several big CBC productions and has benefited from high impact performance exposure on TV. She has garnered two Juno nominations, as well as appearing as a presenter and, as of just this past Friday night, has twice won the Canadian Aboriginal Music Award for Best Female Artist, as well as last year's Best Song award. Yet she still can't break through either the stereotype-casting or the mainstream radio barriers.

9211 However, the exposure opportunity from a station such as Newcap's proposed 94.5 FM, as well as the Aboriginal Voices Radio Network, could easily play an important role in launching her career by nurturing a local audience for her. Many songs on FARA's latest album Pretty Brown would likely receive airplay in a new adult contemporary format. And her work on Henry Young's recent album, a Vancouver-born guitarist who toured with jazz great Nina Simone, would also fit into the smooth jazz format.

9212 Undoubtedly, this kind of exposure would assist her local record sales, create awareness and demand for live performances.

9213 And what is the trickle down effect of artists such as Crusoe and/or FARA? Crusoe had a six-piece band that employed many talented musicians. Two of note were Christine Duncan, who sang backup in his band as one of her first professional gigs, and bass wizard Marc Rogers. Both have gone on to pursue their jazz roots.

9214 And also, on his debut album Back To The Wonderful, local jazz great Dee Daniels provided some stunning vocal performances along with Cecile Larochelle.

9215 And on FARA's album? Some great bass performances from none other than Marc Rogers again, horn from Vince Mai, keyboards from Chris Gestrin, drumming from Randall Stoll, and several others from one of Vancouver's best and hottest live bands, Soul Stream. And guess who she hires for her live shows.

9216 FARA has even recorded with the Vancouver Symphony.

9217 The point I'm trying to get to is that one artist's career pursuits support others as well -- musicians who make their living playing live and in the recording studio. If these artists attain success, they feed the musical food chain by hiring other performers, as well as managers, agents and so on. And that success very often comes with airplay -- pure and simple. Radio is integral to developing a scene in Vancouver and to nurture these musicians and their audience.

9218 Newcap's entry into the Vancouver market is both bold and rather visionary. Through their proposed financial and promotional commitments to the local and regional music community, their intentions are clear: they plan on establishing and nurturing permanent roots. This is the kind of partner we need -- one who will not only promote new musicians and their recordings, but who will invest in the very people who are the foundation of our music food chain.

9219 Beyond the other Canadian talent development initiatives, I would also like to encourage Newcap's unique support of Aboriginal Voices Radio Network, who have a place in their own community as well as mainstream music. This would also benefit FARA's career. By putting their money where their mouth is, Newcap has some unique and promising initiatives to help our community grow.

9220 As a manager who understands the business side of musician's careers, and those that benefit from their success, no matter what the level, I believe Newcap's proposal is worthy of support and as such I look forward to your decision.

9221 Thank you.

9222 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I believe that Commissioner Cram has some questions.

9223 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you.

9224 Mr. Palmer, you heard me ask the question before, I believe it was of Mr. Coughlin: what is more important, airplay or sampler CDs?

9225 Do I hear fairly clearly that it is airplay?

9226 MR. PALMER: I think it is definitely airplay. I mean, that's where it begins, but you have to follow that up. And how do you get airplay? Sometimes you are on a CD sampler that gets you airplay. So it can sometimes be a chicken-and-egg question.

9227 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Exactly. I have been through the chicken and egg.

9228 But given the fact that it would appear that there are other resources available for the production of CDs, what you would most need then from a media outlet would be airplay. Is that what I hear you saying?

9229 MR. PALMER: I would say so. Absolutely. I mean, if you can establish yourself in the airwaves, that is going to be your foundation for any career in longevity.

9230 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yes. Pardon me?

9231 MR. PALMER: In longevity.

9232 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yes.

9233 After that, after airplay, how most could a media outlet radio assist smooth jazz or assist artists?

9234 MR. PALMER: Well, in this case, doing a live broadcast on a weekly basis from a local venue I think would be huge. I mean, it would create a buzz. It would create an opportunity for people to focus in on that particular show or even go to the live venue itself. It would give musicians who wouldn't might otherwise get opportunity to expose themselves either in a live performance and/or on radio or if there is a CD sample best of for that particular showcase that would be brilliant.

9235 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Have you, through any of your connections in the business, heard of any impact on artists as a result of the Hamilton station?

9236 MR. PALMER: No, I haven't. I think it is too new to really know. I can't honestly say.

9237 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you.

9238 Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

9239 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

9240 Now we will hear from Ms Cook.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

9241 MS COOK: Thank you and good morning.

9242 My name is Lesley Cook and I am the Festival Director for the TerrifVic Jazz Party in Victoria. The TerrifVic Jazz Party will celebrate its 19th annual festival in 2001 and it will be my eighth year as director.

9243 Over the past 19 years the festival has become one of North America's best festivals of its type and now brings about 15,000 people to Victoria annually.

9244 We hire between 17 and 20 bands from all over the world. The majority come from the United States, four and five from Canada, and specifically British Columbia, and one or two international bands.

9245 Our preference would be to hire more Canadian bands but there aren't as many to choose from and our audience comes to see bands they are familiar with. As Canadian bands do not receive a large amount of support they are unable to travel, to cut CDs or to get themselves played on radio stations, and so people cannot become familiar with them and their popularity suffers as a result.

9246 Ironically, just like most of our performers come from out of town, so do most of our audience. We still attract more out-of-town participants than locals and I feel this has a lot to do with a lack of promotion of jazz in our own neighbourhood.

9247 The good part of this is that these visitors bring approximately $3 million into the economy of our city. They stay in hotels, eat in restaurants and purchase items in retail stores, all of which are good for tourism -- our main industry.

9248 Jazz is alive and well in the rest of the world, particularly south of the border, but somehow British Columbia is missing the boat.

9249 Why is a smooth jazz radio station needed in Vancouver?

9250 My experience has been that jazz is very poorly promoted in British Columbia and in Canada as a whole. The mandate of the TerrifVic Jazz Festival Society is to preserve the art form of traditional jazz by introducing it to our young people. This mandate is very difficult to maintain in today's music world with music programs in schools being cancelled and very few radio stations offering jazz. I myself have to listen to a Seattle jazz radio station even though the reception is rarely that good.

9251 A new smooth jazz radio station in Vancouver will immensely help the Jazz Party to keep our mandate. It will introduce the music and create interest for new listeners. It will please the more established and sophisticated listeners, and it will also be a platform for up-and-coming Canadian artists to strut their stuff. It will help build an audience base and market for my event, and it will definitely help in marketing it to the mainland.

9252 In considering the Newcap application, there are a number of features which we feel will be of benefit to our festival and to developing the jazz scene in British Columbia.

9253 Newcap has indicated that they will air specialty programs focusing on traditional jazz, soul influence jazz, blues and highlighting the legendary artists of jazz. Here at last will be a place to hear traditional jazz on the radio on a regular basis. Not only will it provide music for people who know jazz and seek it out, but it will also expose jazz to those who may be unfamiliar with the traditional forms and may develop an appreciation for it and come to festivals like ours to experience it live.

9254 The proposal to have weekly broadcasts of live music from a venue will promote the idea of live music helping the entire live music scene. The release of CDs at these performances will directly help artists to develop their profiles as live performers who our festival may book as a result of their enhanced recognition as performers.

9255 Newcap has made a commitment to playing local and Canadian artists which will help develop their profile so that they may become in demand and a draw at live festivals such as ours.

9256 It may also be that as a new company to B.C. Newcap will be more interested in reaching into the community than some of the more established stations which we have here. They will be someone new to talk to for promotional support and for financial support for festivals like ours. Something that I will be sure to be pursuing with them.

9257 All of our festivals in B.C., including those in Vancouver, Victoria, Pender Harbour and Penticton will benefit from having a new jazz-oriented FM station in Vancouver. Not only will there be entertainment and cultural value, but it will also contribute to the real economic spin-off benefits that festivals like the TerrifVic Jazz Party bring to the region.

9258 I am encouraged by what I have heard about Newcap's financial involvement in the Halifax, Edmonton and Toronto jazz festivals and hope that we may have an opportunity to work with them as well in B.C. upon their licensing for a smooth jazz station.

9259 Thank you.

9260 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Cook.

9261 I believe that Commissioner Cram has a question.

9262 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you.

9263 This is your pamphlet, is it?

9264 MS COOK: Yes, it is.

9265 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I heard you talking about TerrifVic having a mandate to introduce jazz to young people.

9266 MS COOK: Yes, ma'am.

9267 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So what are you talking "young"? Twelve under, twelve over?

9268 MS COOK: Yes. As a matter of fact, we have a school program, a school workshop program. Because of the liquor laws in Canada and in British Columbia, people under the age of 19 aren't allowed to come to our jazz festival because we sell alcohol. So we provide a school workshop for kindergarten up to early teens, two mornings during the jazz festival, and we also do what we call a kid's jazz party on Saturday morning where anyone can go. These are all free. We provide that ourselves. The kids love it. They are very, very excited about jazz.

9269 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So you don't go into the schools. It is during the period of time when you are having your --

9270 MS COOK: We used to go into the schools. We used to take four bands, two into one school and two into another school on two days and we found that it was a much more viable situation to put four bands into our largest venue, which is the curling club in Victoria, and bring eight schools into that area. We can fit 1,200 kids in there. It works absolutely wonderfully.

9271 COMMISSIONER CRAM: It's just chaos and the kids love it.

9272 MS COOK: It's a little bit of chaos. A lot of teachers, a lot of people looking after them. The parents come. It is really quite wonderful and it works. It actually isn't that chaotic, amazingly.

9273 COMMISSIONER CRAM: You were talking, then, about Newcap and that you will now hear traditional jazz. The TerrifVic Jazz Party, is that traditional jazz or does it move it into the sort of more -- what's the word -- programmed, I guess, smooth jazz?

9274 MS COOK: A little bit of everything actually.

9275 Nineteen years ago when the Jazz Party was started we were the TerrifVic Dixieland Jazz Party. About seven years ago, just after I became the director, we decided to drop the word "Dixieland" because we have so much diverse jazz at the Jazz Party. We have all kinds of jazz at the Jazz Party, from Swamp to Zydeco to Chicago, and of course Dixieland as well.

9276 Just the whole idea of having a smooth jazz station that will provide interested jazz listeners with all of that jazz is what is really important, I think. There isn't a station that we can listen to jazz.

9277 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Except an American one.

9278 MS COOK: Exactly.

9279 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you very much, Ms Cook.

9280 MS COOK: You're welcome. Thank you.

9281 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you, Madam Chair.

9282 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Cook.

9283 We will go on to Mister -- help.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

9284 MR. FERREIRA: All right. I'm here to help.

9285 My name is Johnny Ferreira.

9286 THE CHAIRPERSON: Ferreira. Thank you.

9287 MR. FERREIRA: Johnny Ferreira. I'm an independent recording artist, saxophonist, songwriter and band leader.

9288 From 1986 through 1997, I recorded and toured full time with Canadian singer-guitarist Colin James. We worked all through Canada, the United States and Europe with such artists as ZZ Top, Bonnie Raite, Stevie Ray Vaughan, the Rolling Stones, to name a few.

9289 I am now touring and recording with my own group, Johnny Ferreira and the Swing Machine. Our music is new and original and has elements of jazz, rhythm and blues, rock and roll and pop. Much of it is inspired by writers from another era. Count Bassie, Louis Jordan, Louis Prima, Louis Armstrong -- all the Louis really. This was pop music in its time and is now what we call jazz.

9290 In the last three years we have recorded and released two CDs. Our next one has just been licensed for distribution throughout Europe.

9291 From my touring experience, I know there is a lack of choice in Vancouver radio compared to many of the European and American cities where you can hear jazz and blues on the radio all day long. We have very little choice. It is frustrating here when you can choose from just country, oldies rock and then more rock.

9292 From touring through the U.S. and Europe, I can honestly tell you that there are a lot of people out there who love jazz and blues, and there is so much music that could be accessible to so many people, and a lot of it is Canadian. I think there are many Diana Krall's out there just waiting to be discovered, and there are many existing artists who play great music that does not fall into our existing radio formats.

9293 As a performing artist, I am getting more attention and action overseas than in my own backyard. Here if you are not rock or hip hop, it is hard to get exposure, and we need radio to reach our audience, especially since many of the people who like our music have professional jobs, may be a little older and just don't go out to the clubs any more. When you get right down to it, radio is how we advertise.

9294 It is entertainment for sure, but if people like what they hear on the radio they will go out and buy the CDs and go to the shows. Having a jazz radio station in Vancouver will be great to listen to and it will also help us, as performers and recording artists, reach a bigger audience.

9295 What I like about this Newcap plan is their interested in getting involved in the community and working with local artists and promoting their music and the live shows. Playing a high amount of Canadian content and emphasizing the new recordings will promote CD sales for those of us who are creating and working today rather than just the oldies.

9296 Building our profiles as local recording artists will be helped by announcing the title and artist for every Canadian song played, and by scheduling announcements to promote new local releases and the live shows.

9297 Newcap is also going to help artists develop their popularity via the Internet with the Web site having a Canadian section, a Web store for independent artists to sell their CDs directly and links to their own Web sites. This can help us worldwide.

9298 I am always amazed at the amount of people all over the world who have heard about Vancouver's musicians, although up until now that has been mainly in rock. That will change with the support and exposure from a jazz broadcaster.

9299 Live performance is a big part of jazz and it is where we all started and what we really live for as musicians. Newcap's plan to have weekly live broadcasts from a club will be great to promote live performance and make things happen. It is a chance to get a recording and to get on the compilation CD, which can help in getting gigs and possible label interest, especially for those musicians who have yet not had a chance to record their own CD. It will bring musicians together and help the scene flourish.

9300 There is nothing like Newcap's proposal happening here now, and it is something that will benefit us all: the artists, the venues, the business and the audience. I hope they will be successful.

9301 Thanks for the chance to be here today. Thank you and good night.

9302 THE CHAIRPERSON: Not yet.

--- Laughter / Rires

9303 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Ferreira.

9304 MR. FERREIRA: Thank you.

9305 THE CHAIRPERSON: I believe Commissioner Pennefather has a question.

9306 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Good morning.

9307 MR. FERREIRA: Hi.

9308 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you for being here.

9309 I was going to ask you first what it was about Newcap's application that specifically brought your support. I think you have gone through the list quite thoroughly, so let me just ask you to expand on one or two things.

9310 MR. FERREIRA: Sure.

9311 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: I heard you say the music you were talking about was pop music in its time and it is now called jazz. What did you mean by that?

9312 MR. FERREIRA: Well, if you listened to the radio, I have heard, like in the thirties, forties and fifties, what we call jazz artists, like Duke Ellington and Sara Vaughan and Ella Fitzgerald and Louis Armstrong and people like that, that was just pop music. You know, they were on the radio, commercial radio. They had like, you know, the big bands, you know, like Glen Miller and Benny Goodman. You know, that was live -- everybody was out dancing to them and listening to them on the radio and buying their records. It wasn't like today it is more in the closet.

9313 But there are great jazz standards that we call jazz standards that was just pop music in those days. I don't think they had such a big division is basically what I meant.

9314 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thanks. That is important, because when I heard the word "pop" music, I thought you were referring to something else -- today's pop music versus jazz -- which explains your other sentence in your written intervention:

"A strong emphasis on new recordings will promote CD sales of those of us creating and working today rather than just the oldies." (As read)

9315 The "oldies". Are those musicians you were referring to?

9316 MR. FERREIRA: Yes. I hear there is a lot of oldies rock and oldies, the people that have been dead for many years and have great music, and we hear them and -- I mean, I like it but who is benefitting from those CD sales? Neither they nor their families.

9317 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Just one last thing.

9318 Commissioner Cram was talking to others and other artists about the value of airplay versus the value of live performance and the CD sampler, could you just explain again from your point of view as an artist what comes first, what really matters.

9319 Particularly, you mentioned the importance of the live show and the CD sampler, but how does that result in CD sales of the kind of CDs passed around today?

9320 MR. FERREIRA: Radio play is first, because when I started playing with Colin James in 1986 there was no record, there was no CD. We were playing in clubs for 100 people. There was a song on the radio and in six months we were playing in clubs for 1,000 people, and shortly after that 1,500 people and so on. So the CD sales are generated by the amount of radio play because if your CD is on the shelf and nobody is playing it, nobody knows -- so what? It's on the shelf. But if you haven't heard it, you're not going to buy it.

9321 So I think the radio play is most important. It generates the rest.

9322 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you very much.

9323 Thank you.

9324 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Commissioner Pennefather. Thank you, Mr. Ferreira.

9325 We will now hear from Mr. Mai.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

9326 MR. MAI: Madam Chair and Commissioners, my name is Vincent Mai. That's okay. It happens all the time.

9327 I sound a little rough. I was gigging last night so I might be a little scattered here; I might not be able to read.

9328 Anyway, I'm a professional trumpet player. I have been playing for over 25 years. I am a live performer in various groups around town and other groups that are notable throughout Canada. One of the bands I do play with is with Johnny here, and I'm on his recordings as well, and Powder Blues as well.

9329 I have toured with these groups and others nationally and abroad, including the States, Europe and Latin America.

9330 I am also a film composer and I have composed for the FOX network, CBC, documentaries and other documentaries that are by independents.

9331 I am as well a session player on numerous commercials, TV shows, a trumpet player on DaVinci's Inquest, and various albums -- lots of people. I am on the FARA album that you have a copy of up there, and with a new Powder Blues album, with Johnny and -- anyway, the list goes on. As well as, with FARA -- you know, I mentioned that already. I told you I'm out of it.

9332 But most importantly, I'm also a recording artist. I have been on so many other people's things that it is time to do my own thing. So I put out a new jazz release. It came out this September -- copyright here.

9333 Why smooth jazz radio is needed in Vancouver?

9334 As a local jazz recording artist, it is very important to me that Vancouver and the surrounding area have more representation in the area of jazz, both smooth and traditional.

9335 Currently, we have no station dedicated to this genre. This is quite amazing given the population of the area. In order for me to hear that, you know, I have to tune into Seattle and the reception is pretty bad unless you have cable, and I have chosen not to have cable for personal reasons.

9336 It has become increasingly important to me with the release of the new album that I do get airplay because I am realizing that that is basically the only way I am going to get known. Me being a sideman on various other projects, you know, I'm just a little -- just a name on the inside liners, but in order for me to get known and to have CD sales, I need to have exposure.

9337 Currently, in this area, there are no jazz stations. You know, there are programs that at various times have jazz, but this is very sporadic. So I need radio, and without radio the public would not be able to hear my music, to like it, to want to buy the CD, to come see me perform live either at a club or a festival.

9338 This is particularly important to a new artist such as myself who people don't know. You know, having your songs played on the radio creates awareness and gives you legitimacy. It also is very important in the developing of a following for a live performer, you know, to be a draw for clubs and festivals, you know, because the festivals won't hire you either if they don't know about you.

9339 Why the Newcap application?

9340 The Newcap proposal addresses a number of issues that I face as a recording artist and professional musician. Right now, only a few jazz programs exist on the air, such as on the CBC, and these tend to concentrate more on traditional jazz formats. Again, even these are on air only a few times a week. The smooth jazz artists aren't being represented and thus cannot be heard. Only a few of the more fortunate ones, really the ones signed to major labels, are getting exposure by the U.S. stations, like I had mentioned before.

9341 Newcap's smooth jazz format means that there will always be smooth jazz on air. As a new artist, Newcap's proposal will play significantly more than the required Canadian content, and up to half of this will be new releases from the past year will help get my music on the air.

9342 Since most of the audience probably hasn't heard of me yet and because I haven't been getting airplay, their proposals to announce the title and artist of every Canadian selection played, and to provide free announcements to promote new releases and live performances, this will help artists like me develop a following.

9343 As a recording artist, Newcap's financial contribution to Factor, which I'm sure you have all heard of, will guarantee -- excuse me for a moment.

--- Pause / pause

9344 MR. MAI: Regarding Factor, Newcap's financial contribution to it and a guarantee that it will be strictly for B.C.'s smooth jazz artists means that I will have a better chance as a B.C. artist in obtaining the funds for recording and promotion. This has been a problem for artists in the west in the past apparently. You know, I think it is getting better, but I think the commitment that is made there is going to be very valid and very important.

9345 As an independent recording artist with CDs to sell, it will be very helpful to have a radio station Web site to promote my CD and to link with it. Newcap has proposed to post their playlist to help listeners find names and performers of songs that they have heard on the radio and to provide on-line samples of music and of course on-line purchasing capabilities for those who don't have it.

9346 I do have a Web site and have these capabilities, but having the link there, you know, it all helps, because that will help generate the traffic to my Web site, and I think that is a very valid point too.

9347 As a live performer, I like their idea of weekly live broadcasts from the Vancouver venue. Excuse me again. No one was smoking in the club last night either.

--- Pause / pause

9348 MR. MAI: Weekly live broadcasts. I think this will help create a feeling of a scene, that jazz is going on in Vancouver. This will also give jazz players from all over B.C. and maybe elsewhere in Canada a chance for exposure and to be recognized.

9349 Maybe more importantly it will also give them a chance to be recorded. Many performers don't know how to go about this and can't afford to record their own CD. I found out myself just how expensive that is. My CD is self-financed and so I know all about that.

9350 To get a chance to record, which we can use to market in clubs, festivals and labels, and to review our own performances and also maybe get on a compilation CD, can bring the attention of a larger audience for the artist.

9351 One more break.

--- Pause / pause

9352 MR. MAI: Having a new smooth jazz radio station in Vancouver would greatly benefit the region for both listeners and artists alike. The format is sorely needed for our cultural growth I believe and the wellbeing of the jazz community.

9353 The Canadian listening audience would benefit from greater exposure to the format and the genre, can achieve the recognition and validity that it carries in the States.

9354 At this time, it is sad that people in Vancouver who want to listen to this format must tune into poorly received Seattle stations who generally care nothing of Canadian content.

9355 We want to hear more of our own people playing jazz and smooth jazz at whatever time of day. Beyond being an artist I am a fan too and would really like to have a station to listen to. This void I believe would be nicely filled by the Newcap proposal.

9356 Thank you.

9357 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Mai.

9358 Commissioner Pennefather?

9359 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you, Madam Chair.

9360 Thank you, Mr. Mai. Don't worry about name pronunciation. You wouldn't believe how mine is pronounced from time to time.

9361 MR. MAI: I didn't take any offence.

9362 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: And respecting the cough, which we are all stuck with, we will keep the answers short and the questions short too, because in fact you have gone through the list of some of the questions I have for you, namely what the problems for artists were that you referred to in your letter, and I assume the word "exposure" sums it up.

9363 MR. MAI: Pretty much, yes.

9364 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: So the various steps you talked about.

9365 One question, though. You noted the importance to you of this application for exposure for B.C. artists. What impact would this exposure have for the career of artists nationally and internationally? What is the balance there?

9366 MR. MAI: Nationally and internationally?

9367 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Yes.

9368 MR. MAI: You mean -- I don't quite understand your question.

9369 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: You mentioned, you put an emphasis on the exposure, both through Factor and through airplay, that you would get for local B.C. jazz artists.

9370 MR. MAI: M'hm.

9371 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: How much is that important vis-à-vis their exposure nationally and internationally? Your career, in other words, is that as important as exposure nationally? Is that the starting point? What is the balance there?

9372 MR. MAI: That's where it all begins, yes, because if I don't get exposed here I don't really have a home base as to, you know, where I can grow from. Like, most artists that you know, you know where they come from, and it starts in your own locality. You develop a following there.

9373 With my current CD I am getting played here and in Vancouver but not to the extent that I would really like, because it is so limited in the programming in this area.

9374 But, yes, it starts here, and that's very important. Very.

9375 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Did you say traditional jazz is available here?

9376 MR. MAI: Yes.

9377 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: And what is the difference with what we would hear with a new smooth jazz station?

9378 MR. MAI: I never hear any smooth jazz in any city that I play in Canada. I haven't heard this new station in Ontario yet, but I have toured in the States and in Europe, and cities half this size usually have two smooth jazz stations. I am always saying, you know, how come we can't hear this stuff? You know, a lot of it is very -- it's great. A lot of it is really great stuff. But it just gets lost up here. It's kind of like we are in a sort of a void in terms of that aspect of jazz.

9379 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you.

9380 Thank you, Madam Chair.

9381 MR. MAI: Thank you.

9382 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Commissioner Pennefather.

9383 I believe Commissioner Cardozo has a question.

9384 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you.

9385 I just want to pursue the last question that Commissioner Pennefather was asking you, and either, Mr. Mai or Mr. Ferreira, as artists in this field, how would you define for me the difference between "jazz" and "smooth jazz"; and, do you feel there is more of a market out there among audiences, more of a desire for one over the other?

9386 MR. MAI: The last question first. I don't think that we can actually determine what the market segment will be because we don't have anything to compare it to right now, unless we have the stats from what is happening in the States. But if you look down there, the market for smooth jazz is huge. It's very, very huge.

9387 Like what Mr. Ferreira was saying before, is that you get your babyboomers coming up and tuning into different things. As people get older it may be the alternative to current pop or rock is something along the lines of jazz and smooth jazz. Jazz and smooth jazz are -- what the difference is can be hotly debated and debated forever. I'm sure you have probably already encountered that.

9388 But for me it has that element of improvisational that's very related, very related. To say that one is desired more than another, I can't really say that for this market because it hasn't been --

9389 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Which one is more improvisational jazz?

9390 MR. MAI: They are both, yes, because there is not just two kinds of jazz. You know, jazz is like a huge, wide spectrum. It is just that for the purposes of this Commission and others that people need to break down what jazz is and then to apply which is more valid, and that is one of those debates that I don't want to get into myself.

9391 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I was hoping you would, but what about Mr. Ferreira?

--- Laughter / Rires

9392 MR. FERREIRA: You cough too much.

9393 MR. MAI: That's true.

9394 MR. FERREIRA: I think the word "pop" can come in here because I think smooth jazz relates to pop because it is more accessible to more people than traditional jazz. Like he said, we can debate about it but, generally speaking, I think that a lot of the traditional jazz is listened to by more people that take an educated interest in it. That is where the improvisational techniques and skill come more into play I think.

9395 But smooth jazz, I think it covers a pretty big area as well, but it is more accessible to a bigger audience and it can be pop as well, pop meaning that it can be popular music. It doesn't have to be -- it could be pop jazz. I mean, aspects of the words "pop" and "accessibility" relate more to that, what you are saying with the question about the difference between "smooth jazz" and "traditional jazz".

9396 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thanks. That is very helpful.

9397 Mr. Mai, I just want to tell you that I certainly have heard you before. I think your playing in DaVinci's Inquest is really quite spectacular and very smooth, but you're right -- I never knew it was you.

--- Laughter / Rires

9398 MR. MAI: Well, thank you very much.

9399 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Cram. I'm sorry, I thought you had a question.

9400 I just want to say that I see we have a little typo here and it was spelled out M-A-Y instead of M-A-I and that hopefully explains my pronunciation problem.

9401 MR. MAI: It's okay.

9402 THE CHAIRPERSON: I would like to thank all of you for taking the time to appear before us. It means a lot when members of the public take time from their busy schedules to come. Thank you very much.

9403 MR. MAI: Thank you.

9404 MS VOGEL: At this point I would like to recall Jazz Solution Artist Management.

9405 Seeing no one, we will recall them later in the day.

9406 THE CHAIRPERSON: I think what we will do, then, is take our lunch break now and come back at two o'clock.

--- Luncheon recess at 1235 / Suspension pour le

déjeuner à 1235

--- Upon resuming at 1400 / Reprise à 1400

9407 THE CHAIRPERSON: Madam Secretary, are there any appearing intervenors that did not appear up to this point?

9408 MS VOGEL: We just have one that hasn't appeared, and that is Jazz Solution Artist Management. We could call to see if they are here at this point.

9409 Is anyone here from Jazz Solution Artist Management?

9410 It appears that there isn't, Madam Chair.

9411 Our next intervenor is Justin Time Records Inc. Would you come forward, please.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

9412 MR. WEST: Good afternoon, Madam Chair, Members of the Commission.

9413 My name is Jim West and I am the President of Justin Time Records.

9414 I am delighted to have this opportunity to appear before you today to support Standard Radio's application for a new smooth jazz radio licence for Vancouver, British Columbia.

9415 In 1983, I created and launched Justin Time Records in Montreal. It was a very interesting and challenging experience to say the least, particularly from the perspective of recording unknown artists, one in particular, a Canadian artist by the name of Mr. Oliver Jones. We attempted to market Oliver Jones and his music both in Canada and abroad.

9416 At the same time, I was fortunate enough to also own a national distribution company that helped offset some of the recording, marketing and distribution costs. Since its inception, our label has produced almost 300 jazz, blues and gospel recordings featuring mainly Canadian artists. I am also very proud to say that Justin Time records has helped establish and document the careers of numerous Canadian jazz artists, such as Oscar Peterson, Oliver Jones, Ranee Lee, Gerry Brown, Diana Krall, to mention a few.

9417 Over the years, our label has received many prizes for its recordings, including several Juno and Felix awards, as well as accolades from international publications such as: Jazz Times, Musician Magazine, Jazz Is Magazine, Jazz Podium, Swing Journal, CODA, the Jazz Report, Jazz Men, and Billboard.

9418 Further, Justin Time Records was voted Record Label of the Year by The Jazz Report from 1994 to 2000.

9419 We also enjoy foreign distribution in many European countries, as well as South Africa, Australia, Hong Kong, Korea, Japan, Malaysia, Indonesia, New Zealand and of course the United States. All told, we are distributed in approximately 24 countries and are extremely passionate about the Canadian jazz music scene and what we bring to the many corners of the globe.

9420 Justin Time Records is extremely excited about Standard's application and the concept of a second smooth jazz radio station licensed in Canada. This new window of opportunity will allow Canadian jazz musicians to share their creations on an unprecedented level with the people of British Columbia.

9421 There are many components of Standard's application that make it a winning application.

9422 First, Standard's proposal will provide significant exposure to Canadian smooth jazz artists, both from British Columbia and other parts of Canada. In order for Canadian jazz artists to become known and flourish and indeed make a living from their art, they need exposure on the radio. As you know, there are no Canadian commercial radio stations in Vancouver that broadcast Canadian smooth jazz artists.

9423 Justin Time Records is delighted about Standard's unparalleled commitment to play a minimum of 35 per cent Canadian content on The Wave from the first day that service hits the airwaves. It is this type of commitment that will provide the exposure that Vancouver artists such as Oliver Gannon, Brad Turner, Kenny Coleman, Miles Black and even Diana Krall really still need.

9424 This will also translate into greater opportunities for western Canadians to hear and learn more about an extraordinary musical treasure. In terms of the availability of Canadian smooth jazz music in the system, I can assure you that there is a tremendous breadth and range of Canadian smooth jazz recordings out there eager to be played. Just in my catalogue alone, as I have mentioned, there is Diana Krall, and Carol Welsman and Kenny Coleman, and Ranee Lee, Gerry Brown, Brian Hughes, DD Jackson, P.J. Perry and so on.

9425 As a veteran of the Canadian jazz music industry and jazz enthusiast, there is no doubt in my mind that Standard will be able to meet its commitment to showcasing a minimum of 35 per cent Canadian content on The Wave. The musical resources are there.

9426 Another very compelling component of Standard's application is that 80 per cent of the musical selections that it will broadcast will consist of jazz and blues. This initiative is indicative of Standard's strong commitment in Canadian jazz today and well into the future.

9427 Eighty per cent jazz and blues will also ensure that The Wave will truly be a smooth jazz radio station. This in turn will guarantee something new and fresh in the Vancouver broadcasting system, more visibility for another segment of the Canadian music industry that is currently not being heard, and a heightened choice for radio listeners.

9428 Licensing The Wave will unequivocally strengthen radio broadcasting in Vancouver and Canada.

9429 Another facet of Standard's application that must not go unnoticed is its tremendous commitment to the development of Canadian jazz musical talent, both seasoned and new, local and non-local. Standard's dedication to developing a Canadian jazz infrastructure is exemplified by its proposal to contribute over $7 million over seven years to Canadian talent -- a significant contribution by any account.

9430 Exciting and unique initiatives, such as a compilation CD, the overall winners national concert tours, the production of music videos, the funding proposals to the Vancouver Jazz Festival and Factor will all provide Canadian jazz artists with new professional avenues to explore and undertake.

9431 Standard's Canadian talent development proposals will also contribute to increasing the wealth of smooth jazz recordings available in the system, provide Canadian artists with heightened familiarity within the Canadian audiences, as well as provide Canadian listeners with more opportunity for rich cultural experiences.

9432 On a final note, I would like to say that Justin Time Records is very much looking forward to working in co-operation with The Wave at various levels should the Commission decide to listen this service. For instance, our record label will have the pleasure of distributing The Wave's Canadian Talent Development Smooth Jazz Compilation CD to music lovers across Canada, and moreover, across the world.

9433 I will also have the honour of being a member of The Wave's advisory board. This will be a wonderful opportunity for me to share my experience and knowledge about Canadian smooth jazz with others. It will also allow me to learn from the dynamic and creative individuals from the Canadian jazz music industry. The advisory board will most definitely ensure that The Wave's programming will be reflective of the breadth and extent of Canada's jazz music scene, from both the historical and contemporary perspective.

9434 Madam Chair and Members of the Commission, Justin Time Records, as you have surely gathered, is thrilled about Standard's proposal for a new Vancouver smooth jazz radio station. We are of the view that this is an incredible proposal and should be granted the privilege of gracing our airwaves.

9435 I thank you for the opportunity to speak to you today and welcome any questions you might have.

9436 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. West. I pronounced that properly?

9437 MR. WEST: Jim West.

--- Laughter / Rires

9438 THE CHAIRPERSON: I had a few problems this morning with pronunciation so I just wanted to make sure I got "West" straight otherwise I would be in big trouble.

9439 I just have a couple of questions for you.

9440 I wondered when I was looking at your letter. What do you mean by "documented the careers"? Today you mentioned "documented and represented or recorded". I wasn't sure what --

9441 MR. WEST: The difference being is that I do have 300 recordings in my catalogue, more than 300, however I have gone to the CBC archives in Toronto and have master tapes that have been recorded in 1940 and fifty and so on, and I have released those. I call those documenting an era that have not been out and not been released previously in the Canadian marketplace.

9442 So, for example, the Oscar Peterson recording I have in my catalogue from 1951 is something that had never been released before and it was something I felt was important to the historical perspective of jazz in Canada. So I went and spoke to Mr. Peterson and spoke to the people at CBC and managed to work out an agreement to release that record.

9443 So the difference between actually myself doing a production and recording or licensing someone else's recording and having a tape that's in an archive for archival purposes of which I have maybe 20 or 30 in my catalogue, that would be the difference basically: my own production or a found master tape.

9444 THE CHAIRPERSON: And that's what "documented" means?

9445 MR. WEST: Well, to me to document something that has not previously been available and something -- you can use the word in many different ways. I have documented peoples' careers in the sense that Diana Krall's first recording was recorded on our label, and that is documented evidence of her earlier work in 1992.

9446 In Oscar Peterson's case, I was fortunate enough to have a record from 1951. I consider that being documented.

9447 It is, I guess, semantics, if you will, but it's --

9448 THE CHAIRPERSON: No. That's okay. I just really wasn't sure what it meant. It was just terminology with which I'm not familiar.

9449 Can you tell me if you have seen any impact on record sales since the Hamilton station went on the air? Has there been any evidence so far that -- I realize it is not very long, but I just wondered if there was any --

9450 MR. WEST: Yes, it's not very long.

9451 There has been an impact from -- and this is more from what the salesreps in the force have told me out there, it's just that they have seen movement. I don't have a Soundscan system, which is the operating system to verify actual sales at stores. I will be getting that in a couple of months and I will be able to tell you exactly what the impact would be on where records are played and what the sales impact has been.

9452 But certainly from all indications there has been a very positive impact, yes.

9453 THE CHAIRPERSON: You are the largest jazz label in Canada, according to your letter.

9454 MR. WEST: Yes.

9455 THE CHAIRPERSON: Who else does this? And do you specialize in ways that others don't? Just so I have a sense of the recording industry.

9456 MR. WEST: The jazz community is a group of labels that are pretty small, generally speaking. Some may have five or six recordings and some may have 25 or 30 or so. I would estimate there are maybe -- labels that actually work as a label and do business as a label, maybe seven, eight, nine in Canada, and most of them are part-time businesses for people. It is very difficult to make a living from strictly selling jazz at the moment in Canada.

9457 THE CHAIRPERSON: Right.

9458 And in listening to all of the applicants and the number of intervenors we have here, it struck me that other than Hamilton this would be the first -- should we licence one -- jazz station. I am just wondering if you have any explanation for why we haven't seen it in Toronto.

9459 As you know, we don't regulate format any more, so nothing has stopped anyone from going to this format. We are hearing that there is an enormous amount of demand and an enormous amount of inventory. I am just wondering why we haven't seen a jazz station.

9460 MR. WEST: I have a couple of theories. You know, one could conceivably be that jazz is a four letter word to a lot of people. It is a word in the sense that it is, you know, a dark, dingy room with a smoky bar or something where it has to be played. And it is not quite that.

9461 In fact, in the last couple of years I have marketed my jazz records without marking them as jazz per se. I market them as just good music. That has had actually a positive impact.

9462 People that will listen to recordings and that you can say cross over into different genres of music, smooth jazz into almost a pop sometimes, or jazz itself into, you know, its different experimental areas of jazz, I think if you didn't tell somebody it was jazz and you just played it and people listened to it, they would like it and they wouldn't know the difference. It is just good music.

9463 I guess that preconceived idea is what prevents a lot of people from sometimes tuning into a jazz station or something, or a permanently jazz show.

9464 THE CHAIRPERSON: You don't have any explanation for why, for instance, no one in Toronto has launched a jazz station, reformatted the station?

9465 MR. WEST: No, but that may come. No, I have no idea at the moment. But, you know, just with the proliferation right now of jazz festivals, how strong they are, and the club scene is starting to build up across Canada, and I see it on a national basis, it is getting stronger and stronger every year. So I think that will become -- I'm sure that is in the cards in the future.

9466 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

9467 Oh, my colleagues. Does anybody have a question? No?

9468 Thank you very much, Mr. West. We appreciate you taking the time to come here today.

9469 MR. WEST: Thank you.

9470 MS VOGEL: Our next intervenor is Kerry Galloway. Would you come forward, please.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

9471 MR. GALLOWAY: Good afternoon, Madam Chairman and Members of the Commission.

9472 Excuse me. I'm a little nervous. I don't do a lot of public speaking.

9473 THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, don't be.

9474 MR. GALLOWAY: Pardon me?

9475 THE CHAIRPERSON: Don't be.

9476 MR. GALLOWAY: Okay.

9477 I have prepared some statements today but I think I would just like to start by departing from that a little bit.

9478 I will try and be as brief as possible today. I know you have heard a lot of speeches.

9479 It seems like one message that is becoming abundantly clear through all the presentations is that it seems like, number one, the jazz community is in a bit of a beleaguered state and really does need the assistance of additional avenues, additional investment.

9480 Basically, we need infrastructure built to help the community out. I mean, it is obvious that we are now seeing quite extraordinary success on the part of Canadian jazz artists. We are seeing Diana Krall. We are seeing three B.C.-ers being nominated for Best Jazz Vocalist of the Year at the Juno Awards this year: Karin Plato, Kate Hammett-Vaughan and Diana Krall.

9481 So basically, this is an idea whose time really seems to have come.

9482 Rather than totally rehash some of the previous statements of my colleagues, I would like to bring up some additional issues.

9483 Also, I hope too at the end to have an opportunity to maybe clear up a little bit of the controversy surrounding what is smooth jazz and what is jazz, because we have done some research into this.

9484 So, now onto the prepared statement.

9485 Ladies and gentlemen of the CRTC. I requested the privilege of addressing you today to urge you to consider favourably the application of Standard Broadcasting with regards to their formation of a smooth jazz station in Vancouver.

9486 I speak both in my role as President of Pacific Jazz Inventors Association, a community-run volunteer-based jazz non-profit organization, and as a Canadian jazz practitioner, composer, producer, recording artist and fan.

9487 I am not affiliated with Standard and my organization is not one of those for whom funding is proposed by them, nor have they solicited me to speak on their behalf today.

9488 In the interest of providing my credentials for your scrutiny, I have toured jazz 14 times in Europe and toured smooth jazz in Australia and Japan. I have played with virtually every western Canadian jazz luminary of my generation and been privileged while touring to be an overnight guest at Windsor Castle.

9489 I am a Lion's Gate recording artist with a solo CD, New Ozone Rangers, which was kindly listed by Jergen Goethe as one of his top 10 albums of the year when it was released six years ago.

9490 I have also recorded two jazz CDs as a featured soloist with the Paris-based Nunotes Quartet in Germany and Paris.

9491 I have taught jazz performance both locally and worldwide as a private instructor, a clinician, a founding member of the annual Vancouver-based conference, and an instructor at Capilano College.

9492 I currently serve the B.C. music community on the board of directors of the Pacific Music Industry Association where I additionally sit on the government relations committee. I have also served as chairman of the tribunal of the American Federation of Musicians.

9493 Ladies and gentlemen, jazz is one of North America's few indigenous fine arts. It is one of the few cultural exports that was created here in the crucible of North American culture, as opposed to existing fine arts like ballet, architecture, symphonic music, to which we remain valued contributors without pretending to be originators.

9494 It is eagerly consumed as a fine art by European and Asian cultures. Phil Woods, one of the greatest jazz saxophonists of the last 30 years, stated once that: If it wasn't for Japan I would have been teaching full time long ago. His records sell extremely well in Europe and Japan.

9495 What we have here is a very marketable exportable commodity which is already recognized as a fine art worldwide.

9496 I will of course comment on the difference between "commercial" and "art" jazz, but -- maybe I could just drop into this right now. The difference would be essentially the difference in an industry between "basic" research and "applied" research. Essentially, the basic research component is funding experimental jazz, and the applied research is funding more commercially viable products. But, like any object, in order to be useful it has to have a centre and it has to have an edge, so that is what we need. We need support for the cutting edge and we need support for the centre.

9497 Just as an aside, in case anybody questions the fine art status of jazz. There is actually no widely accepted functional definition of "fine art". The Encyclopedia Britannica states that:

"...the distinction between artists and craftsman hardly appears before the Renaissance, and the term `fine arts' or `beaux arts' in France does not appear until the mid-18 century. By then the founding of academies had given impetus to the concept of fine art as a creation on a loftier level, untrammelled by secondary considerations." (As read)

9498 So there we have a definition of art gratia artist, art which exists for its own sake as opposed to commercial considerations.

9499 Generally speaking, it is considered that a fine art has several key components to distinguish it from a folk or popular art, and one of the most important is an academic component. Jazz is taught across the nation in our colleges and universities as a fine art. Yet its practitioners are impoverished.

9500 There is a bitter joke in the jazz community. What is the difference between a jazz musician and a large pizza? The answer is: a large pizza can feed four.

9501 Few jazz musicians are able to concentrate on jazz as a career. Unlike classical musicians who can aspire to obtain employment in government and publicly-subsidized orchestras, jazz musicians will remain self-employed and live by their wits until the day they die.

9502 As we shift away from a resource-based economy where we export raw materials for others to refine into goods, a similar shift must happen in our artistic life. We must export art, not artists.

9503 I personally have toured jazz 14 times in Europe and was one of Canada's six best known bassists in the eighties and early nineties. I have never once toured Canada or played in Toronto. The only thing that brought me back from Europe was my love for my home town and for my friends.

9504 To the matter at hand. Six of 11 applicants seek to obtain your permission to exploit the last high-powered FM bandwidth left in my home town in the name of a smooth jazz station. If my understanding is correct, any of the six applicants who seek a licence for smooth jazz, must demonstrate to your satisfaction they enjoy the support of the community that they claim to represent. They must also demonstrate the support they will give the community in return.

9505 In this case, as there is no such thing as a smooth jazz community, I have never seen a smooth jazz section at A & B. Have you? It doesn't exist. There is a jazz section. There is a pop section. But there is no smooth jazz section in a record store -- so far. This might change.

9506 The stakeholding community is the Vancouver jazz community in whose name any hopeful applicant must speak. I am here as one voice for that community.

9507 Gary Russell of Standard Broadcasting first approached me with questions on the jazz community six or seven months ago. We know each other from our duties as directors of the Pacific Music Industry Association. I had been very impressed with Gary in the previous year when he and the other board members of PMIA were called into an emergency meeting of the board of directors. The West Coast Music Awards, which we present, had suffered a huge setback when major sponsorship arrangements had not materialized. We were called together for the very difficult and sad task of cancelling the show. That really would have been sad because I think we are only a few years old now.

9508 Gary Russell came in half an hour before and wrote us a cheque on the spot for $54,000. And I must emphasize that another radio station, Standard's competitor, was actually presenting the awards and Standard would derive no publicity benefit for this act.

9509 I believe that examples of corporate good citizenship like this are too rare, so when Gary said that he needed information on the needs of the jazz community, I was more than happy to provide this information as a thank you. To my great surprise, when Standard's benefit package was later revealed, I found out that some of my ideas had been implemented verbatim. Ladies and gentlemen, this is not so much Standard's offer to the community, but a package that was at least in part created by the community itself. Maybe it is arrogant for me to say I speak on behalf of the community, but I will.

9510 You may also have gathered the impression that jazz musicians are very strong individualists, each with their own agenda, their own definition of jazz. But I hope later just to give you a little information on whose behalf I speak.

9511 Later when I saw a comparison between the offers of the various stations, I was gratified to see that there was literally no comparison between them. Standard's is certainly the most specific proposal, and that is a very important point for me. I dislike vagueness. Assurances never specifically given are certainly the easiest to revoke.

9512 Standard's contains by far the highest amount of cash on target for seven years. Standard is offering the highest percentage of Canadian content. I understand that that has changed. I would just like to make the observation that unless it is written into their original proposal, that doesn't actually go into the terms of licence, so basically they have put it on paper that this is part of the conditions of licensing -- I would be happy to be corrected if I am wrong in this -- so they are the ones that basically have chosen to hold themselves voluntarily to that standard.

9513 Standard is offering a scholarship proposal that is precisely targeted. After all, it came from our own requests.

9514 I will digress into a brief aside about education. Some stations have proposed substantial investments in education, to the point where as a 20-year jazz educator myself I am a bit mystified by this apparent hot button issue.

9515 I would urge the Committee to examine this basic logic: where will all these newly trained jazz musicians play; how will they be heard; who will they displace; or, where will they move away to in order to get enough work to survive?

9516 This is the kind of offer that really underscores a lack of basic research into the nature of the community. We need a boost for our best and brightest, not a flood of partially trained youth into a job market that is unable to completely support the existing artists.

9517 Another hot button issue remains local versus eastern Canadian ownership.

9518 For the jazz community in western Canada, the geographical isolation of our region is a huge impediment to those seeking national or international markets. Jazz is largely an urban phenomenon and one must drive 13 hours east to find a population centre that is of the same order of magnitude. Believe me, having tried to book tours across Canada, that is a huge impediment, and the budgets of most jazz touring preclude flying. A lot of the time you are driving between gigs.

9519 Standard has offered the community an opportunity to have its music cross-promoted on smooth jazz stations in eastern and central Canada. I cannot stress the enormous value of this offer. If this had existed six years ago, I wouldn't have had to abandon my own project due to inability to tour.

9520 As a self-employed artist, I lacked the resources that Standard is now offering free of charge.

9521 I urge the CRTC Board to take note of the names listed as giving their support to Standard. They list amongst their number the best an brightest names of the Vancouver jazz community. Their support was given after extensive community consultation and are not spam or form e-mails.

9522 I urge you in the strongest terms to examine the identities of the senders. This alone will speak volumes for the support of the community.

9523 I have been given the gracious permission of the following to speak on their behalf: Maximum Jazz, Shawn Pierce, which is on the west coast, the Premiere small jazz label. They have two quite successful -- they have had Brad Turner. They have also had Metalwood, which is now on its fourth album. Metalwood is going to catapult into the big time next year because they are having John Scofield, who is one of the most famous jazz musicians of our generation basically, guest on a Metalwood recording. I think we can see that catapult into the big time.

9524 MS VOGEL: Mr. Galloway, I'm sorry to interrupt, but we are well past the 10 minutes.

9525 MR. GALLOWAY: Time is up. Oh, I'm terribly sorry. I will move straight to the summation.

9526 In summation, ladies and gentlemen, I can tell you that you have an enormous opportunity to make a tremendous difference for the jazz community. I can tell you that the jazz musicians I know are dedicated to their craft and incredibly hard workers.

9527 Please give us a chance to have our music heard. Give us the opportunity to show what B.C. jazz can do when presented on the world stage. We, as a community, implore you to consider Standard's offer favourably and we will watch the outcome of these hearings with great interest.

9528 I'm sorry for going over.

9529 THE CHAIRPERSON: It's okay. The reason for it is fairness to all of the applicants and all the intervenors, so it's not --

9530 MR. GALLOWAY: I totally understand.

9531 THE CHAIRPERSON: I don't want you to think that we weren't completely gripped and fascinated by your presentation.

9532 I really have a couple of questions. You have quite fully articulated your support for Standard's application.

9533 What is the Pacific Jazz Inventors Association?

9534 MR. GALLOWAY: That organization started basically as a bunch of jazz musicians getting together and complaining about how bad it was. That goes back about six or seven years ago. This is a favourite pastime of jazz musicians.

9535 Also, because the bulk of the people there were also self-starters, we quickly grew tired of that as a sport and decided we were going to put together an organization and one of our big goals was to examine what was wrong and how it could be fixed.

9536 We spent a lot of time coming up with basic definitions of what is and what isn't jazz. Believe me, that is a thorny issue. For awhile we were presenting jazz at various venues in Vancouver as well.

9537 We like the name "inventors" because basically jazz is an inventive or improvisatory art form.

9538 Does that answer the question?

9539 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it does.

9540 The other question is the one I asked Mr. West as well, which is we are in a highly competitive process here in Vancouver and many have suggested that Vancouver has fewer FM frequencies available than other markets in Canada because of the congestion and the location of Victoria, you know, Seattle, Bellingham and Vancouver.

9541 As you know, we have recently licensed a jazz station for Hamilton, but to the best of my knowledge there aren't any anywhere else in Canada. The CBC doesn't regulate formats any longer, so if anyone wanted to switch they could. Given what we are hearing about the incredible support for, you know, jazz festivals, the incredible inventory of music out there and the problems you have articulated, I wonder if you have any insight into why there has never been a station before now.

9542 MR. GALLOWAY: I think it is essential to remember that jazz is basically about 100 years old and that this basically is all new, especially jazz within the last 30 years. It has gone through some major, major changes. You probably remember there was a period of really intense free jazz exploration in the 1960s and the 1970s, then there were various offshoot forms such as fusion jazz, which actually developed and matured and provided the seeds of smooth jazz.

9543 What we are seeing is an art form which is maturing at the same time as the market for it is and not surprisingly because the market and the art form will influence each other back and forth.

9544 It is hard to come up with a definition of "jazz". I would say that some smooth jazz falls out of the definition of what we would consider jazz, and it really starts bordering into styles like adult contemporary. But the fact remains that -- just to refocus on the question, I don't think it has hit yet. I don't think it has hit yet. I think it is going to hit and I think this is the first rumbles.

9545 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

9546 MR. GALLOWAY: It's a pleasure.

9547 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much for taking the time to appear before us. It is important for us to be hearing from people in the community on these matters. I appreciate it. Thank you.

9548 MR. GALLOWAY: Thank you very much.

9549 MS VOGEL: Our next intervenor is Elitha Peterson Productions. Would you come forward please.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

9550 MS SWEENEY: Good afternoon, Madam Chair and Members of the Commission. My name is Sylvia Sweeney. I am the President of Elitha Peterson Productions, and also the founder of the Blueprints Arts and Entertainment Festival.

9551 It is the first time I have intervened, but I have actually observed the CRTC hearings for many, many years, and it is the first time I have felt that I would be remiss if I didn't travel this way to tell you why I am supporting Standard's application for The Wave.

9552 I have been in the industry for 17 years in broadcasting. As a producer I worked for CBC television for seven years on air, W5, CTV for two years, and finally hosted my own little network called My Own Company as an independent producer and for 10 years have approached various entities, whether it was in broadcast or radio, for assistance in programming. So I am here today to talk about content and commitment.

9553 I have witnessed many promises of performance and I would like to maybe share something with you that you may not be aware of about Standard Broadcasting and its commitment to artists and producers from across the country.

9554 I am not here to speak on behalf of any community. I am speaking on behalf of my experiences. I have learned through speaking with other artists and producers that they are shared experiences having dealt with Standard.

9555 In its application it underlined something of the utmost importance, which is traditional jazz. My life and the lives of many Canadians of African descent thrived and are what they are today because of traditional jazz.

9556 I would like to take you back to the 1940s and fifties in Montreal where I was born, at a time where many of the African Canadians could only find two outlets for work, and that was as porters or as domestics. Every black family in Canada, if they could afford to, had a piano. The reason being, they could work and they had an opportunity to educate their children.

9557 In my family, my mother was a piano teacher and she taught Oscar Peterson, who is her brother, and Oliver Jones. And she also started what is now known as the Jubilation Choir, which Jim West has successfully marketed.

9558 In that family, I had the opportunity to have people like Ella Fitzgerald and Dizzy Gillespie float through our doors and I was privy to many of the conversations of the old jazz men, and those conversations included not having an outlet for their music. So I was very excited to know that smooth jazz is something that might open the door for traditional jazz as well. But, in the other applications I have noticed to date there is no recognition for the source and the history and what it is in Canada.

9559 That history in Canada is not exclusive to the African Canadian sector. When Oscar performs, he performs to basically a white audience. He transcends colour and culture, and that is what is important about Standard. It has often, without having a mandate to do that, supported artists and producers who have come to them because jazz -- you can't go anywhere else in this country and get any funds for jazz.

9560 When I tried to produce a television series, a documentary on my uncle Oscar Peterson in 1991, I went to the most obvious place, which is CBC, and I was turned down. I actually had two weeks to try and find the money to take a production crew to Europe, which I thought might be his last tour. I ended up walking through Allan Slaight's door at Standard. And if you walk down their halls, they have nothing but jazz on the walls, and it shows me that there is a love for the art form and there is a passion for it but no outlet.

9561 He, without more than a five-minute conversation, wrote a cheque for $50,000 and sent our crew over. There was no expectation of any promotions or any kind of accolades. He did it because he loved the art form. This has become a trend with that company.

9562 In 1999, I founded a festival, the Blueprints Arts and Entertainment Festival. Once again, it was an outlet for jazz artists for many culture, five art forms, and could not get off the block with any other corporation. Standard stepped up to the plate with $300,000 with no expectation of anything but a little moniker at the end of the show saying "Sponsored by Standard Broadcasting".

9563 Now, I am saying this not because they have not had the opportunity to speak for themselves, they have, but often you can't toot your own horns when you are doing something that you are doing out of compassion and dedication for people that they believe in, and they have believed in myself, Bill King, Liberty Silver, and the list goes on and on. It is mainly word of mouth that you hear what Standard is doing. They are tough in business, and they have to be, and that is what has made them very successful. They have held everyone accountable for the money that they have contributed and sponsored, but they also have a long track record of success.

9564 The success that is very important, and this lends to the commitment, is that it has successfully built bridges between cultures. I don't think that the answer is in segregating cultures. I think the answer is in combining a successful operation in Toronto with the frequency here in Vancouver. Allowing people from across the country to appreciate each other. And Standard has done that and can do that.

9565 I have also had the fortune to speak with them about what the impact of jazz can be in traditional and in soft jazz, and have, in my own conclusion, come to the conclusion that Standard has been able to make its case for promoting art forms without losing money. I know that in this environment it is important that whatever station you decide to -- or whatever art form or station you decide to give a licence to, they have to be able to demonstrate success, financial success. That Standard can do.

9566 In the support of In the Key of Oscar, we were able to -- it was $1.1 million, the cost of that documentary, and we actually were able to recoup the investment for Standard. It wasn't a write-off. The money that they have invested in Blueprints is also recoupable. So we are not talking about gifts, and that is also very important. I don't think a licence should be a gift. It should be marketable and it only goes towards the sustainability of an art form if you allow people who are committed without a mandate, and that's many -- it is very easy to respond to your applications and promise performance, but I must say that Standard has performed without any mandate to do so.

9567 So, in closing, I would like to first of all underline the fact that traditional jazz will pay tribute to the many jazz people who -- my education is in part due to the fact that my uncle, my mother were able to pay for my education through their formation in music. If Oscar were sitting here today, he would say to you that jazz needs an outlet and it's not -- smooth jazz can easily fall into the auspices of popular music.

9568 By actually writing it down in black and white that we will support traditional jazz, you are helping the next generation of artists and Canadians to acknowledge what contributions like Oliver Jones, Ranee Lee have made to the fabric of this country. I think it is the only case that, across the board, people can stand up and tip their hat to African Canadians and say, "You have started this and now we all feel like we have a part of it. It is a Canadian art form."

9569 In closing, I would just like to once again reiterate my full support for this licence and encourage you to really look at the history of Standard broadcasting and not just what is on paper.

9570 If you have any questions, I would be happy to respond.

9571 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Sweeney. It's me again.

9572 One of my questions is the same one that I have asked a couple of previous intervenors, and that is, given what we are hearing that there is a significant community out there, both historically and currently, of jazz musicians who have not been able to get on the air because there has not been a station dedicated to this music, and given what you have said to me here today, and given your history and understanding obviously of broadcasting and of this art form of jazz, and your family connection -- we don't regulate format as a rule, so any station could have done this, we have just recently licensed a specialty format in Hamilton, and we are entertaining, as you know, a number here in Vancouver -- can you enlighten me or enlighten us as to why it may be that nobody has met this demand in the past given that there are lots of licenses out there.

9573 MS SWEENEY: I think it is a matter of timing and opportunity. If you look at market-driven, radio and commercial licences have to be viable. Right now with the surge and resurgence of an interest in jazz it is marketable. I don't think 10 years ago when -- the broadcast industry is fighting frequently for a frequency and you have to put forth something that you know you can sell on an equal footing as any other applicant. Right now jazz has an audience with the evidence of festivals from across the country, and it does have cross-promotional abilities now with the Web. Jazz artists themselves have woken up and started to promote themselves, because it is not just one way. Artists have to actually stand up and be held accountable for the lack of their visibility as well. They are. They are beginning to understand the industry that they are in, and I think that timing is everything and the time is now.

9574 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. I know you have come a long way to appear before us. We appreciate.

9575 MS SWEENEY: Thank you.

9576 MS VOGEL: Our next intervenor this afternoon is Lee Aaron. Could you come forward, please.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

9577 MS AARON: Good afternoon, Madam Chair and Members of the Commission. My name is Lee Aaron and I am a resident of Vancouver.

9578 I am appearing here today in support of Standard Radio's smooth jazz application for 94.5 The Wave in Vancouver.

9579 For those of you who are unaware of my background, I will provide a brief history for you.

9580 I have been a professional singer, songwriter and performer on the Canadian and international music scene for almost 20 years now, from 1982 to present. I have recorded and released 10 albums in Canada and throughout the world. Many of these albums have attained gold, platinum and double platinum status, as well as garnered eight Juno nominations and numerous other accolades.

9581 I have achieved much success in the arena of pop rock. However, four years ago, feeling the need for new creative challenges and now having a small daughter and not wanting to go on the road as much, I made a career decision to return to my roots and began recording and performing jazz and blues.

9582 My tenth album entitled "Slick Chick" was released in May of this year and it is a jazz recording. The genre of jazz, however, is a much different story than the arena of pop rock, let me tell you. This disc, unlike my previous works, was self-produced and self-financed. I have found in my recent experience that there is an appalling lack of support for this idiom on most corporate levels and in my efforts to promote my new jazz CD I have exhausted literally every possible avenue.

9583 At present, radio play for this type of work is extremely limited and the reality for jazz artists in this country is that there are almost no commercially successful radio outlets for Canadian jazz. I know I speak for many when I impress that these outlets are so very desperately needed for our jazz artists to expose and ultimately prosper from their work.

9584 So as someone who derives her living solely from their art, I am appealing to the Commission today to please consider Standard Radio's proposal for a smooth jazz radio station here in Vancouver. I strongly feel that the Standard Radio proposal definitely stands out above the others for these reasons:

9585 Firstly and foremost, Standard Radio has committed to including a minimum of 35 per cent Canadian content in their programming. This of course is the greatest amount of any of the applicants. To me this goes a very long way in displaying Standard's pledge to the value of our Canadian jazz artists as well as the long-term support of their work. I cannot express enough the degree to which radio exposure has the ability to directly impact an artists success.

9586 During the eighties and early nineties, I, and many of my peers at that time, earned a very respectable living directly related to the amount of radio play and support that we were able to obtain on Canadian rock radio. Stations of this format are, of course, in abundance across the nation. I mean, they played my recordings, they promoted my shows, they featured each of my new releases as they come out, I just sold thousands of CDs. I toured successfully on each album and earned airplay royalties from my original works. I could never have achieved this without the support of Canadian radio.

9587 The simple power of radio. I mean, it seems so small but it is -- I just can't tell you. It is just so huge in the parameters of an artist's career. Yet this is not a medium that jazz artists have access to to promote their recordings because so little of this radio format exists at present in Canada.

9588 Standard Radio has made a commitment to play 80 per cent jazz and blues in their programming. This of course is the highest percentage once again of any of the applicants. I was particularly impressed that they have also committed to include a diverse selection of jazz sub-genres in their programming, including traditional and classic jazz, which I feel is important.

9589 What a wonderful breath of fresh for the radio landscape here in Vancouver. I mean by providing the Vancouver area with a format that is not currently represented on the airwaves, I feel it would interject a fresh alternative into the present broadcast system and reach a broader listening audience by committing to play a wide range of musical selections within the jazz idiom.

9590 Most importantly of course from my perspective, it will provide much needed airplay opportunities for many of the local and national jazz artists that presently have little or no exposure for their work. Standard has also committed to producing and airing non-profit commercial spots four times daily to promote new Canadian jazz releases with their Jazz Spot plan.

9591 Normally, this type of promotion would only be within the reach of an artist with a major label contract and huge promotional dollars behind them. I feel that this is a great gift to our many talented homegrown recording artists who would otherwise be unable to afford a medium such as this. I hate to reiterate but over-the-air promotion is a monstrously powerful tool for creating awareness of one's work and ultimately leading to unit sales.

9592 It is my understanding that if awarded this licence that Standard, out of all the smooth jazz applicants, has already set the ground plans to work with Canada's only other smooth jazz station, The Wave, out of Hamilton. I think this is an incredibly smart move on their part to serve both the listeners and artists better by creating an east-west liaison.

9593 I found Standard's Canadian talent development initiatives very impressive. It is quite apparent to me that Standard has gone into the community and done extensive research in developing these initiatives and is directly responding to the needs of the jazz collective on a local and a national level. From scholarship grants to the compilation CD to the live concert series to replacing du Maurier as the local jazz festival standard, not only is Standard offering tremendous support to already active artists in the community but providing young, local talent with genuine opportunities for the future.

9594 The live concert series in particular, which broadcasts local artists and local live jazz venues twice a month, is also a very exciting initiative for the local jazz community. Not only will it directly benefit the artists by providing an avenue to showcase their work, but it will also help improve the overall health, I think of the jazz seen here in Vancouver through over-the-air promotion of the live local jazz venues.

9595 Of course the Internet is rapidly becoming the next most powerful form of multimedia with the ability to reach Web users all around the world. It is great to see that Standard Radio will be keeping up with new media by providing Internet streaming of its programming and by donating funds toward the already established vancouverjazz.com.

9596 Factor. Factor is an invaluable resource for Canadian artists. I and many of the record labels that I have been signed with in the past have used Factor for both recording and video assistance. I think it is great to see that Standard Radio will be donating a substantial amount of funds toward this organization specifically designated for the development of jazz in Canada.

9597 I'm proud to be part of the Vancouver jazz community. It is home to some of the most original and most talented jazz musicians in this country and the world. But, quite frankly, I have to be honest, the local scene is in pretty sad shape. Its jazz artists and live venues are struggling economically and they could desperately use some vehicle that will help to elevate it. The once-a-year jazz festival, as wonderful as it is, it is just not enough.

9598 I feel that Standard Radio's proposal for The Wave is certainly an excellent start.

9599 As a Canadian recording artist whose sole source of income is my craft, and whose ability to grow and succeed in this industry is enormously dependant on radio airplay to expose and promote my work, I would like to say this. Our artists are a valuable part of our culture and I feel that it is not only the responsibility of the Canadian broadcast industry to respond to the needs of its listeners, but also to support and help cultivate Canadian talent.

9600 You know, as I read through some of the other intervention letters on the CRTC site supporting the Standard Radio application, it occurred to me that most of them were written by my colleagues whom I greatly respect and admire: Kate Hammett-Vaughan, Karin Plato, Denzal Sinclaire, Members of Mother and Pearl, Jim West, Bernie Finkelstein. I mean the list just goes on and on. I think that really says something about Standard Radio's integrity.

9601 I met Gary Slaight at the Q107 offices in Toronto many times in the past during my former rock career, promoting my rock albums, and he always said that he believed in my talent and promised to support me in as many ways as he could. I can personally say that he did just that. I think a large part of my former success in Canada as a rock artist is a testament to Gary Slaight and Standard Radio's genuine commitment to supporting homegrown artists.

9602 To summarize here, I would just like to say once again that Standard Radio, out of all the applicants, has committed to the greatest percentage of Canadian content as well as the greatest percentage of jazz and blues in their programming. They have done their research extremely well, and they seem to know what is needed, not only to create a commercially viable station but one that is directly addressing the needs of the Vancouver and the national jazz community. Their talent development initiatives are comprehensive and very well thought out. And, lastly, Standard Radio has a track record, and let's not forget this, has a track record of creating successful stations and displaying great support to Canadian artists.

9603 That is pretty much all I have to say today. If you would like to ask me any questions, I would be happy to answer them.

9604 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Ms Aaron.

9605 I don't really have much. I think both your written and oral presentations are clear.

9606 But I would be curious to know, as an artist who has been both in the rock area and now in jazz, you have talked about the importance of airplay to the success of a musician.

9607 MS AARON: Yes.

9608 THE CHAIRPERSON: I wonder if you could just give me a sense of where that ranks as opposed to a number of other things that are talked about, be they Factor, CD compilations, and whatever, just so that we have a sense of -- we don't often get artists in front of us to be able to ask this kind of question.

9609 MS AARON: I can tell you this. First and foremost, I think airplay is the most important. I would say, secondly, the power of television, MuchMusic, MuchmoreMusic, all of the video stations, television is a very powerful medium as well.

9610 But that only goes so far because when you have a video on MuchMusic you are given like a slot depending on, number one, whichever rotation you get, and your time is limited. It is kind of like being a sports star for two weeks or something.

9611 But if you have an album that has consecutive singles that are released, and each of them get a substantial amount of airplay, I mean it just can go such a long way in moving unit sales, because people listen to the radio. They do. When they are in their car, when they are not at home in front of the television. It is a hugely powerful medium.

9612 If I can say this. I am a songwriter and I still receive airplay royalty cheques from my former works, and it is one of the only things that affords me the ability to record and perform jazz right now. I love jazz, but it is a tough way, certainly in Canada, to make a living right now.

9613 THE CHAIRPERSON: Again, further to that -- I mean you have been in the rock area where there is lots of stations play rock music.

9614 MS AARON: That's correct.

9615 THE CHAIRPERSON: Now you are a jazz musician. With one only launched and a number applied for here today, do you foresee, whether or not we approve one of the jazz licences, that there is so much pent-up demand that more is going to happen or what --

9616 MS AARON: I can really only respond to that question from my own personal perspective.

9617 THE CHAIRPERSON: That is all I want.

9618 MS AARON: I mean, I think there is definitely, certainly within the community here in Vancouver, a pressing need for this. My feeling is that this type of format, certainly among -- just on a personal level with myself, my friends, we have sort of an aging demographic of babyboomers and Gen-Xers and they want an alternative to listen to.

9619 I don't really want to turn on the radio and listen to live guitar music any more myself. My fans would be really upset to hear me say that, but --

9620 THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, we won't tell them if you don't.

9621 MS AARON: -- it is nice to have an alternative. It seems as though, I can say from a personal perspective, that I find that a lot of my fans have grown with me. I do play quite regularly around the Vancouver community, locally in clubs and venues. I have a lot of former fans that were great fans of my former work that have come to see my show simply because of my name, not because they really either were exposed or didn't even know very much about jazz, that say, "Wow, you know, I didn't think I liked jazz but I really like what you are doing." There seems to be a movement towards wanting an alternative like jazz and smooth jazz.

9622 Once again, it is a fabulous art form that seems to be getting a lot more recognition each year at the jazz festivals in not only major centres but the secondary markets that seem to be exploding everywhere right now.

9623 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. I have no further questions.

9624 MS AARON: Thank you.

9625 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much for taking the time to appear before us today.

9626 MS VOGEL: Our next intervenor is Bill King. Would you come forward, please.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

9627 MR. KING: Thank you.

9628 Good afternoon, Madam Chairperson and Members of the Commission.

9629 I am Bill King, publisher of The Jazz Report magazine, Artistic Director of the Beaches International Jazz Festival, and Co-President of Juno award-winning Radioland Jazz.

9630 I am here speaking in support of Standard Radio's application for an FM frequency, 94.5 The Wave, and the Jazz Star System benefits proposal.

9631 To begin with, I would like to say that both Allan and Gary Slaight have been supporting jazz musicians, festivals and other related events as long as I have known them. This isn't a situation where a company has asked for support while acting contrary to the principle.

9632 Standard Radio has been sponsoring the Beaches International Jazz Festival for 10 years. This community festival has grown from 12,000 in its first year to becoming the second largest jazz festival in the country behind the Festival of Jazz in Montreal, drawing over 750,000 people last summer. Compared to the Toronto Downtown Jazz Festival, which is clocked in at around 70,000 plus annually. Our success can be partly attributed to the exposure received on Standard's station CFRB 1010 and The Mix 99.9.

9633 Since we are a community jazz festival with no dollars for advertising, Standard has invited us to promote the show on morning shows like Ted Wilishen(ph), Wally Crowder(ph) in the Past, afternoon and evenings, while also running promotional announcements encouraging their audience to attend, as well as doing a remote broadcast at the site.

9634 I can't begin to estimate the dollar value 10 years that this type of campaigning has garnered, but I would guess it to be in the millions.

9635 Let's go back to where it all began. In 1985, I was asked by Gary Slaight, then head of Rocks Radio Station Q107 in Toronto, to take over QJAZ, a Sunday morning jazz show aired between 9:00 and 10:00 a.m. I was more than thrilled with the opportunity and more than a little bit green behind the ears.

9636 Mr. Slaight assured me his staff would make me comfortable with the format and guide me through the process. After a couple of shows, it became evident the format needed to be expanded to allow music bridging both the improvisationals of purely jazz with contemporary rhythms and production.

9637 Gary encouraged me to find that link. With assistance from several major and independent record companies, I uncovered a wealth of music rarely heard. Artists like Al Jarreau, Montreal's Jusep(ph), Vancouver's Skywalk and an unknown sax player named Kenny G found a home in our new show.

9638 We also implemented a 35 per cent Cancon policy from show one.

9639 Over the year, our listenership rose from 9,600 to 36,000 for that one-hour segment.

9640 In 1989, I decided to record an album of pop-jazz instrumentals called Magnolia Nights. I leased the recording to New York based Guya(ph) Records who in turn delivered me two North American smooth jazz hits: AmerAsia(ph) and Magnolia Nights. In Canada, CTV began using AmerAsia under their weather broadcast. Over the next 10 years my residual payments surpassed $20,000 for airplay alone thanks to a national network of jazz shows.

9641 Since then, royalties for all my recordings, those emanating from our Radioland catalogue of jazz artists, barely register due to the lack of airplay on commercial radio.

9642 I believe all musicians should be able to make a fair dollar from radio play, and that rock, pop and country and urban composers shouldn't be the only ones to reap the benefits.

9643 My partner Greg Souther(ph) and I launched Radioland Jazz eight years ago and began recording Canadian jazz artists. Soon after we released our first recording Moments Notice featuring The Jazz Report Allstars, we signed a long-term distribution deal with Universal Canada. The relationship has spawned 19 jazz recordings, two Juno awards, five nominations.

9644 Last year saxophonist Pat LeBarber(ph) won Best Traditional Jazz Award for Deep in a Dream. Last week we released four new recordings featuring artists from Montreal, Ottawa and Toronto. Much of the financing comes from Factor, Greg and I, Gary and Allan and the musicians themselves. This is a risky proposition in that jazz sales rarely cross the thousand mark or return a profit. We all understand that, but we have been fortunate with Gary and Allan's assistance to record an artist like Liberty Silver, Live in Session, and witness its sales exceed 3,000 plus. Radioland artist Pat LeBarber(ph), Tyler Ugarima(ph), Winnipeg's Earl MacDonald and Vancouver's Campbell Riga(ph) have been consistent sellers.

9645 With the moderate success of Radioland we thought we could serve the national jazz community by creating a much needed national jazz award. This we have done with assistance of publicist Andy Wilson, with our charity Safe Haven, Gary and Allan, several other sponsors and the overwhelming support of the jazz community.

9646 Two of the most compelling moments in the eight years have been the speeches Oscar Peterson made to the audience encouraging both students and professionals to remain true to their goals and work as a community to ensure jazz has a place in the national conscience.

9647 Another great moment was when Diana Krall, Oscar Peterson and Ron McConnell stood side by side for the first time and lent their support to all those present.

9648 I have listened to many of the CTD initiatives put forth this last week and have a few observations I would like to add.

9649 Mentoring. Mentoring is something familiar to most all jazz musicians. Most of us have come through secondary and post-secondary school music programs, unlike jazz musicians prior to the 1960s who learned on the bandstand or woodshedding in private. Nowadays organizations like Music Fest Canada oversee thousands of students participating in small combo and large ensemble jazz programs from coast to coast sponsoring competitions.

9650 These programs are taught large by the most qualified and highest skilled jazz musicians in the communities they serve. Frequently top Canadian international jazz musicians are employed to teach clinics in these schools. With that in mind, I questioned the necessity of duplicating that which has already been done successfully.

9651 As an Ontario resident, I am outraged at the manner in which the funding for arts and sports programs has been stripped from the curriculum, and the fact that hundreds of thousands of school age children are being denied these culturally enriching and enlightening programs. This is abysmal.

9652 With that in mind, I believe the blame resides with both the electorate, which is more concerned about tax breaks, and a provincial government at odds with anything as frivolous as the arts.

9653 To me scholarships are the best method for aiding the most deserving and gifted in our school systems. A college education is beyond the grasp of many young people. With tuition fees rising at an unprecedented rate, it is paramount that we make sure that we help those who have shown ability and a desire for a career in the arts.

9654 I believe Standard Radio's scholarship proposal for Capilano College in Vancouver, the $200,000 over seven years, is a positive intuitive step.

9655 While I listened to the various applications over the Internet this past week, I was fascinated by the discussion concerning the making of jazz videos. For one, the cost is prohibitive. An artist can apply to VideoFact for half the cost of making a video. The other half is the responsibility of the applicant. Even an inexpensive video done for $20,000 is prohibitive, and once completed there is no assurance that it would be played.

9656 Our best bet is with BET on Jazz out of Washington, D.C., who have shown the greatest interest in Canadian jazz. I have hosted a one-hour show, jazz festival show, the past three years, and that is in 80 countries around the world.

9657 Even CBC, with hundreds of millions in tax dollars, shuts us out of the equation. I'm a working musician; you will never see me on CBC.

9658 My son Jesse and I have worked the past two and a half years researching and experimenting with two jazz Web sites: jazzreport.com, which reflects the magazine; and jazzpromo.com, which not only carries unique content but also sells independent Canadian and international jazz, blues and world beat CDs, jazz education books, 150 MP3s, musician Web pages, streaming audio and video.

9659 I can tell you, it cost my son Jess $600 U.S. a month for the large bandwidth and four servers. This is an expensive proposition. At best, Jesse occasionally breaks even after selling a few CDs and books. It is the MP3s that drive people through the Web site at a rate of 50,000 downloads a week. This has enormous appeal. Both Microsoft and Black Entertainment Television have given Jesse's site its highest rating of five stars. I encourage every jazz fan to have a look at jazzpromo.com and vancouverjazz.com and see what actually can be done.

9660 In 1995, as Chairman of the Jazz Committee for the Junos, our staff was successful in creating a Best Contemporary Jazz Award. This award was intended to celebrate the achievements of those musicians who were shut out of the best jazz category because the judges were drawn from the traditional jazz community.

9661 Artists like Brian Hughes, Elaine Corone, Vancouver's Metalwood have won twice. Holly Cole, Joe Seally and others finally have a category that honours their efforts.

9662 In summation, I would like to express my thanks for this opportunity to speak on behalf of Standard's application and the well thought out benefits they propose. As a musician who has been working professionally since 1960, I have witnessed many changes. Jazz was once the music played in the shadows. To hear so many repeat the word in this room and promise so much is most encouraging.

9663 I believe, when considered, all the applications should look at the nation as a whole. Standard has committed 80 per cent of its programming to smooth jazz and millions of dollars towards Vancouver's jazz community while being sensitive to the needs of jazz musicians from Whitehorse to Saint John. This kind of thinking and investment goes a long way in ensuring our community a coherent national voice.

9664 Thank you.

9665 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. King. Welcome to Vancouver.

9666 I don't have really many questions. I think you have given a fairly full presentation.

9667 But you have been in the jazz area for many, many years and have a wealth of knowledge. I wonder if you could comment on the fact that we have recently licensed one new station in Hamilton. We have a number of FM stations in Toronto. We don't regulate format.

9668 Can you explain why nobody is doing it if there is so much demand and there is so much --

9669 MR. KING: Because it has all come about over the last five to 10 years. Even Gary said to me five years ago, he said, "Bill, jazz is going to be a big item in five years", and he is dead on. We were just having this conversation because we have worked in the jazz format over the years and had this conversation: when will the time be right?

9670 It has been since 1988 and 1989 that they were experimenting with a format in the States to find out would it work. I would say in the last five or six years they found out that there is an audience for it, a demographic and it's a different audience. It is one that can reach -- you know, many places have festivals now. Like us, we have 750,000 people attend. Not only that, we have the du Maurier. We also have the JVC festival. There is an audience to draw from. There is an audience that goes to the Top o The Senator or the Montreal Bistro, that goes to -- and concerts constantly at Roy Thompson Hall for us in our area.

9671 So there is the music there. There is also a little more familiarity with just who some of the artists are, because those who began smooth jazz were the Grover Washingtons, the Al Jarreaus, the George Bensons. They are still here, and they are here along with those new artists. So we have become more familiar with -- but I think it is also -- like I said, I think the fact is there is a growing demographic for it and there is an interest in -- you know, as you get older your music tastes change, and for a lot of young people coming out of college, they have a music taste.

9672 They won't all be musicians, but they have been educated to learn to enjoy and appreciate a variety of music.

9673 THE CHAIRPERSON: Given all of the initiatives that are undertaken to support Canadian music, Canadian artists, and in the benefits proposed not only by standard but by the other applicants, and we do weigh a number of different things when we deliberate toward an FM, but we have airplay, CD, compilations, other sorts of things. What in your view is the most important thing for the artist?

9674 MR. KING: Airplay. The CD compilations are very important too because that identifies the artist. The CD compilation will take -- if you have 12 people on a CD compilation, that means those 12 people have the potential of having separate CDs too. So it is a way to expose each one of them.

9675 But the most important thing, and I must express this, is that we have to have a national jazz network. It just shouldn't stop at Vancouver. It should go to Winnipeg, it should go to Montreal, and I guarantee you you will have many CDs and many artists working. It is a network that is needed, and that was the beginning with Hamilton.

9676 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I was just going to say, anybody who wants a change of format, they don't need our permission either.

9677 MR. KING: We welcome it.

9678 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

9679 MR. KING: Thank you very much.

9680 THE CHAIRPERSON: We really do appreciate you coming a long way to appear before us today. Thank you.

9681 MR. KING: Thank you. Goodbye.

9682 MS VOGEL: Our next intervenor is Technical University of British Columbia. Could you come forward, please.

9683 For the record, Jane Fee will representing this panel in place of Bernard Sheehan.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

9684 MS FEE: Good afternoon, Madam Chair and Commissioners. Please excuse our technology. It is a wonderful thing but it doesn't always work when you need it to.

9685 Thank you for the opportunity to appear in support of the proposal by Telemedia Radio West for the Vancouver FM licence.

9686 The brochure we have provided to you explains briefly what TechBC is about and what we offer to young women and men in Canada as the newest public university. Today, we would like to focus on a project that we are developing in partnership with Telemedia.

9687 That project is our proposed Interactivity Lab -- the only one of its kind in Canada. This lab will provide an environment for researchers, technicians, and performers in audio, video and other new media fields to innovate and experiment.

9688 To tell you more about the lab, I'm joined by two of our learners -- Tammy Mooney and Ian Buckley -- and a TechBC professor in interactive arts, Kenneth Newby. Leanne Coone(ph) of our development office is providing our technical support.

9689 MS MOONEY: Good afternoon, Madam Chair and Commissioners.

9690 My name is Tammy Mooney and I am a second year undergrad learner at TechBC in the management and technology program. To my left is Ian Buckley. He too is a second year undergraduate learner at TechBC in the interactive arts program.

9691 MR. BUCKLEY: What you are about to see is a short visual presentation that Tammy and I created set to a piece by Diana Krall. This presentation will show you what TechBC is about and what we hope to accomplish through our partnership with Telemedia in creating our Interactivity Lab.

--- Audiovisual presentation / présentation

audiovisuelle

9692 MS MOONEY: TechBC is about innovation, and with Telemedia's help, our Interactivity Lab will be about innovation in the performance, artistic and new media fields.

9693 In the last century, Alexander Graham Bell's invention of the telephone represented our first revolution in interconnectivity. Thomas Edison's development of the phonograph allowed us to recreate the effervescence of music. With the advent of radio, broadcast of music and words fostered an intimacy with a generation.

9694 Back then, this was innovation. Today it is standard use. We are here to ask you to imagine which technologies will be standard use in 20 years or five years or even tomorrow, and how we will get there.

9695 In this century, innovation is defined by new digital technology and heightened interactivity. Digitalization is providing an environment for the perpetuity of new ideas. The proposed Interactivity Lab will allow TechBC to realize tremendous opportunities for innovation through relationships and partnerships between researchers, performers and industry. It is through this ability to explore and research that users of the lab, both inside and outside the university community, will set new standards for tomorrow's industries.

9696 Beyond the fact that digitalization enables the creation of new forms of music, it then allows us to apply those forms to images. By incorporating the audio component to art, users can feel immersed in their environment. Sound brings two-dimensional images to life. It triggers our senses to create innovative and personalized music and art. Like the birth of jazz, interactive art is defined by a passion for improvisation.

9697 MR. BUCKLEY: Our hope is to take these notions to greater heights. With the support of Telemedia for our Interactivity Lab, opportunities for notable exploration are bountiful. Some potential topics for further investigation could be: user centre designs with audio technology; computer orchestration of sound; a sound's influence on body kinetics; communicative response empowered by networks; multi-sensory ways to alter environments; and, extending narratives and oral translation.

9698 And these are only a few of the infinite possibilities.

9699 We would now like to introduce Professor Kenneth Newby from TechBC's interactive arts program.

9700 MR. NEWBY: Innovative technologies have already have an enormous impact on the way music is played, composed, recorded, and distributed with significant new possibilities and changes in basic methodology for both the artists providing content and the production teams that support them. The research conducted at the Technical University of British Columbia's Interactivity Lab will investigate the potential for further refinement of current practices and the development of innovative approaches to the authoring, performance, and dissemination of audio content. This will ultimately benefit both the artistic and production sides of these complex processes with the immediate benefit to artists nationally and internationally.

9701 The history of music is one of technological innovation with whole new traditions being made possible with the introduction of new technical solutions to the problem of instrument design. Witness the development of the great European symphonic works made possible by new technologies in the form of the piano and articulated fingering systems for the wind and brass instruments. Or the development of metallurgy in South East Asia leading to the efflorescence of the refined music of the bronze percussion orchestras of Java, Bali, and Malaysia. Some would argue that Adolf Sax's invention in the late ninteenth century of the a saxophone made possible the flowering of jazz as we know it today.

9702 One of the fundamental themes that will underlie research conducted in the Interactivity Lab at TechBC will be that of the human-computer relationship. Computers are no longer just passive tools to be used in the execution of a rote task, such as word processing, but are increasingly being established as collaborators in the performance of the creative process itself. A great need exists to establish the principles and techniques underlying such a sophisticated relationship. Models for developing such modes of interaction are already in place in a number of the cultural institutions around us including the long tradition of jazz improvisation.

9703 The tradition of jazz, as evidenced through so much of the testimony today, is one of the most significant creative movements in the arts of sound to emerge in the last hundred years. The impact of this music on developments in other areas of culture has been enormous including pioneering work done in the field of interactive art in performance.

9704 One of these innovators, American composer-performer George Lewis, is a frequent visitor to the Vancouver area actively working with local jazz musicians as a teacher/mentor, in addition to conducting seminars on interactive art and technology and local universities. With a distinguished performing career playing with jazz innovators from Count Basie to Anthony Braxton, Lewis found his deep understanding of jazz improvisation provided a context in which to invent a new form of interactive performance that includes technology as a partner.

9705 The research conducted in the Interactivity Lab at TechBC will contribute to these ongoing innovations in partnership with creative individuals such as George Lewis, and other practitioners of traditional interactive arts in our community, whose embodied experience can form a basis for taking the next steps in this evolving and dynamic new media.

9706 Other aspects of the research conducted in the Interactivity Lab will focus on access to information. The future of radio seems poised to embrace some form of interactivity with the result that the relationship of the listener to the broadcast medium will shift from a relatively one-way communication to a more interactive one -- with stations providing options the listener will be able to select from -- allowing a personalization and enrichment of the listener's experience previously impossible with this medium.

9707 The Jazz tradition is rich in lore, personalities and history and a radio station with a niche position in the community providing content of this kind would be greatly enhanced through the use of value-added interactive resources. Research in the Interactivity Lab at TechBC will focus on techniques for both authoring and accessing these rich potentials of the new medium of radio as it reinvents itself in the coming years.

9708 MS FEE: In closing, I would like to stress briefly why Telemedia's support to TechBC is so crucial.

9709 We have received 80 per cent of the funding for this lab from the Canada Foundation for Innovation and the BC Knowledge Development Fund. However, both are contingent on our university attracting 20 per cent of the funding from outside, non-government sources -- in other words, the private sector.

9710 That means Telemedia's investment is essentially leveraging more than $1 million from the CFI and BC KDF to make this lab a reality. But beyond the actual financial investment, our university believes Telemedia is showing a commitment to innovation, experimentation and the advancement of the music and multimedia industries.

9711 Our presentation here today has been a little bit different from most of the others. We have provided you with a bit of information on TechBC, and in particular the relationship between TechBC and Telemedia. There is already an existing relationship between TechBC and Telemedia, but we hope that if Telemedia is granted the FM licence that that relationship will continue to grow.

9712 Both TechBC and Telemedia are about innovation, and for this reason we believe that they are the best poised to make the benefits of this licence come back to the community.

9713 Thank you.

9714 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. I will turn to Commissioner Pennefather for questions.

9715 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you, Madam Chair.

9716 Good afternoon. Thank you for bringing us more information on TechBC and, obviously, in particular, the Interactivity Lab project. It is an area we could spend considerable time talking about, but I will have to bring us back to the context of today and the applications before us.

9717 One question briefly. I think I understand better now the interactivity concept here. You are talking about the impact of digital technology on the creation of music. I see that in interactive performance. But interactivity in radio is mentioned here. I was just wondering if you could just clarify exactly in the near term what that will mean for the music we hear on radio, as we understand it, or are you talking about radio stream through the Internet?

9718 What does "interactivity" mean when it comes to radio as we know it?

9719 MR. NEWBY: I will field that, if I may.

9720 There is a current revolution, I suppose you could call it, in radio under way, as I am sure you are aware, in terms of the digital audio broadcast, which provides the option for piggybacking digital high quality sound over top of I think it is the AM band now. But in addition to that, new receivers are being created which will also have an LCD display which will add visual data in the forms of text, pictures, and what? What else? Well, we don't know. It could be any number of things.

9721 But as it stands now, if you want to find out who the artist is, who is playing, what the name of the song is, perhaps get some added background, one of the interesting potentials for digital audio broadcast is because it is a terrestrial broadcast system it is localized, there is the potential for actually letting the listener know that this particular artist may have a concert in their community. So it is just, all in all, a way to add value to the radio broadcast with added information.

9722 And of course the idea of Web cast is -- you know, that is the really wide open area where multimedia can have full sway.

9723 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you. I was wanting to keep to the specifics of the audio experience that we know as radio. It takes a little time to get to understanding interactivity. I can understand the interactivity in terms of composition creation. That component was very interesting.

9724 I guess I would ask you just to help us a bit on this too. Obviously, we are looking at competing applications and I understand the importance of this lab in your presentation and where you are heading.

9725 Looking at it from the point of view as part of a presentation by Telemedia, what, in your opinion, would be the impact of this interactivity lab on artists, and more particularly on smooth jazz artists, and again smooth jazz artists in this part of the country?

9726 MR. NEWBY: I think as I outlined in my presentation briefly, there are really three areas: instrument design, the production of the music, and its presentation. Part of the research that will go on in the Interactivity Lab will be around instrument design. The musicians probably who are most prepared to embrace that kind of innovation I believe are jazz musicians. They have been in the past. They have demonstrated that they have tended to be interested in new resources instrumentally.

9727 On a concrete level, we have already started a relationship with a company in Victoria called TacTechs(ph) who are in process of developing a very innovative new instrument design for controlling electronic music instruments using a touch-based fabric, and it promises to be a very, very interesting and powerful way to bring the kinds of nuance that an improvising musician might be very interested in using.

9728 So we would hope to be able to partner with musicians in the community to help prototype these things and work with them.

9729 On the authoring side of things, we have talked a lot about CD compilations today, and there has been some mention of the power of television. I think the new media points towards the convergence of those. The ground is shifting right now in terms of where that will go. Part of the research that will go on in the lab will be helping to define how we can create these new media forums.

9730 One example I can think of on a local nature is DNA Multimedia, who is another partner with TechBC right now, a couple of years ago worked with a relatively well-known artist internationally, a pianist named Paul Plinley(ph) in the community, to create a CD in partnership with a local record company called Song Alliance which promotes jazz music. They decided to take an innovative approach and to create what is known as an enhanced CD where it wasn't just -- you had the usual, you know, 45-50 minutes of music but you also could put the CD in your computer and have a multimedia presentation of Paul's ideas around his music, scores, some interview materials I think, and even an opportunity to organize some of his musical materials in the way that he might have.

9731 I think this is a fabulous way to promote the more innovative sides of the music. So these are certainly areas that the research at the Interactivity Lab would be promoting.

9732 Plus on the dissemination side, I think the interactivity around potential developments in digital audio broadcast, which I have already addressed I think.

9733 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Have artists from the community been involved or will be involved in the development of the program?

9734 MS FEE: Maybe I could just add something here.

9735 All of the research that we do at TechBC is applied research, and that is substantially different than is the case in other universities in this country. We believe that "applied" isn't a dirty term and that commercializing products doesn't necessarily mean that they are bad products. So all of us at TechBC are applied researchers, and that includes performers, that includes all sorts of different types of academics than you might find elsewhere.

9736 So the research is of a substantially different kind.

9737 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: And down the road the Interactivity Lab would be open to a diverse group of people.

9738 MS FEE: Absolutely.

9739 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you very much for answering my questions.

9740 Thank you, Madam Chair.

9741 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Commissioner.

9742 Thank you very much, all of you, for being with us today. We appreciate it.

9743 Tea time. We will break for 15 minutes and be back at 10 to 4:00.

--- Short recess at 1535 / Courte suspension à 1535

--- Upon resuming at 1550/ Reprise à 1550

9744 THE CHAIRPERSON: We will continue.

9745 MR. TOUCHETTE: The next intervention is by Simon Fraser University.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

9746 MR. BLANEY: Madam Chair, Commissioners, thank you very much for letting me present my intervention on behalf of the Pattison Broadcasting Group. I very much appreciate being able to speak to you at this time.

9747 I am President of Simon Fraser University, but the presentation I am making of course is as an individual. I am not an expert in jazz or broadcasting or not even the intricacies of the CRTC.

9748 What I am I think an expert at is the community. I have, for over 40 years in the greater Vancouver area, participated in dozens of community organizations, all the way from the museum, planetarium, academy of music, the Arts Umbrella, which is an educational organization for children, board of trade, and Downtown Skidrow Skills Training.

9749 It is with that kind of perspective on the community that I wish to make five points in support of this application.

9750 I believe the first one is the one that is most important to me, and that is the importance of local ownership. In all my experience in community work, with dozens of community organizations as well as the university, dealing with locally owned organizations makes a huge difference in your ability to get things done for that community organization.

9751 We have found in British Columbia that local ownership is often leaving the province, especially in terms of large corporations. Dealing with a locally owned organization as opposed to a branch plant does make an enormous difference, whether you the academy of music, or whether you are the museum, or whether you are the university. I think local ownership is a very strong point in this application.

9752 It is not that all broadcasting groups should be of course locally owned, but certainly not all or most ought to be owners from outside of B.C.

9753 The difference in local versus outside ownership I think may be more important in media and broadcasting than in other areas. Local community groups look very much to the newspapers, the TV station and the radio for support. Most of them are working on very low budgets. Most of their work is done by volunteers, and we have all done that, volunteers for organizations, and an interaction and a very large dependency on the media is very important to get your work done.

9754 I can tell you in my experience and in the experience of many of my colleagues that local ownership does make a difference, and able to get your community work out, to get your message out, and frankly sometimes even just for financial support.

9755 We here have a locally owned broadcast group that is making some important commitments to our community such as the following. I have five points in all. This is my second one. That is the clear commitment to help develop Canadian talent, which I know the other applications are making, especially for local and regional jazz musicians.

9756 We have very strong recording studios in this area, one of the strengths I think of B.C. relative to the North American market, and the commitment to use them for beginning artists so that they can get their music played here and then elsewhere, I think is a very important one.

9757 Third is the applicant's commitment to provide education and training especially for equity groups so that they can learn sound recording, video arts and the new media, which is an important burgeoning industry in B.C.

9758 We just heard an intervention from the Technical University of B.C. We have throughout B.C. probably, in the last 10 years, more new media start-ups and research activity than probably anywhere else in Canada. So we do have a very strong base to work from.

9759 My fourth reason is the focus on programming, which is the smooth jazz format, a niche market presently not served, with emphasis on the local arts and the local entertainment community.

9760 In my little bit of investigation over the last couple of weeks or so since I was asked to do this, I have been asking around in terms of what you would choose if you were to found a brand new FM station. It was an open-ended question like that. I was quite surprised that out of the maybe 15, 16, 17 people to whom I talked about half said jazz, that this is a market that simply is not being served in Vancouver, the greater Vancouver area.

9761 And last, my last of five reasons, and it is just as important as the first, is that these commitments are being made by somebody who keeps his word. Mr. Pattison does what he promises to do. He is a long-time resident of this community, and I have seen him at work, whether it is heading up Expo or much more low profile work which no one ever hears about or sees, he delivers on promises. He will deliver on these commitments and I think he will deliver on having a very strong local station that will interact and work with local community groups.

9762 Thank you. I would be pleased to respond to questions, but not on jazz please.

9763 THE CHAIRPERSON: You are in the wrong place. No, I'm just --

--- Laughter / Rires

9764 THE CHAIRPERSON: That is the topic du jour.

9765 Thank you very much for taking the time to come to us today.

9766 As you probably know if you have been following this at all, we have a highly competitive situation here where we have I think nine applicants for what is arguably the last remaining FM frequency, although since I came to the Commission I keep hearing that it is always the last and they keep finding new ones. However, what we are dealing with today is a highly competitive situation. In fact, I think five or six of the nine are -- I lose track -- six are a smooth jazz format and they have all made varying commitments to Canadian content and various other initiatives. I am not going to question you on those things.

9767 I wonder if you could just elaborate for me and perhaps give me some specific examples of your position on local ownership and why it is so important. I wonder if you could just elaborate for us on why, and maybe not even necessarily specific to this industry, but why overall this is an issue that is of concern and one that you felt compelled to come and speak to us today as part of this application.

9768 MR. BLANEY: In my experience and the experience of others, all the way going back to my work with the Vancouver Museum to today working on behalf of the university, if you were dealing with a local ownership you get a decision.

9769 First of all, you usually get a better hearing when you are asking -- it is not always for money, by the way. Sometimes just for, in kind, kinds of help, which you would do with media, and you generally get a much better hearing, you usually can get to the owner, him or herself, as opposed to an intermediary, and you don't have to wait until someone flies to Toronto to talk to their boss and then come back. By the time that happens, the kind of the vigour or the message is gone.

9770 We find ourselves of course for so many organizations -- and again the many community organizations I indicated plus the university -- is that we have to fly to Toronto and Ottawa, and those places, to talk to the owners. It makes a huge difference as to whether you are looking eye to eye at the owner or somebody very close to that owner as opposed to somebody who is an intermediary and may not even be a local person.

9771 So it is the immediacy and it is the quickness of response, and very often it is the generosity of the response that I think makes a difference.

9772 I also think that a local ownership, they better understand the community. They, generally speaking, have lived here a long time and understand the people and the dynamics of those organizations who deliver and those who don't. Vancouver, although it may be now approaching 2 million people is still a very small city and you know the people and the organizations that deliver and those that don't.

9773 There is one question you asked, which I thought was an interesting one, of a number of intervenors, that is: Why haven't existing stations adopted smooth jazz? They can change their formats.

9774 I thought there was very good and very interesting responses to that.

9775 I have never been to one of these before so I thought about that question, and it seems to me that probably -- I have created new organizations in the past, and when you create a new organization brand new, you think I think much more freshly about its mission and its purpose. My hunch is that is as good a reason as I think one of the previous intervenors indicating in the last five to eight years there has been a real -- jazz has become far more important in the community, and I can tell all my friends who are musicians that jazz has become more important, but I also believe that when you create a new organization you look at it very freshly.

9776 They probably have done their market work, as I did my queries of 18 people, and I'm sure they talked to more than 18, and the importance of jazz is clearly I think the choice of the public right now if they had a new station.

9777 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. I appreciate you taking the time to come and appear before us today.

9778 MR. BLANEY: I appreciate you hearing me. Thank you.

9779 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

9780 MS VOGEL: Madam Chairperson, for the record, our next intervenor would have been Elena DiGiovanni. We will be recalling her at a later point in this proceeding.

9781 Our next intervenor is Cliff Jones. Could you come forward, please.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

9782 MR. JONES: Good afternoon, Madam Chair and Commissioners.

9783 That hissing back there is I know all the players in the room, or most of them, from my background.

9784 My name is Cliff Jones and I am the Director of Corporate Relations at the Centre for Digital Imaging and Sound, better known as CDIS.

9785 I am here on behalf of CDIS and in my personal capacity to intervene on behalf of the Craig/Harvard broadcasting application for a new smooth jazz station called The Breeze, a western based company committed to the community, to Canadian artists, and to various institutions in Vancouver that support the jazz community.

9786 I would like to begin by telling you a little about CDIS and about myself. I believe this will help explain why we are so enthusiastic about the Craig/Harvard application.

9787 CDIS is a Burnaby-based technical institute that has been around for 21 years that specializes in the fields of media arts, new media, animation, digital film production, music and the recording arts.

9788 Since 1979, our 3,900 square foot facility for 40 students has grown into a campus of over 45,000 feet with over 600 students. CDIS is committed to giving the students the very best education through hands-on training in the latest industry skills and on the most advanced technology and equipment available.

9789 At CDIS we are committed to helping students achieve the highest degree of education in the changing world of music and music technology. We are committed to providing maps, tools, resources to ensure that they get jobs after they gradate and they have the best possible chance to develop their careers and become competitive in a global environment. So we were thrilled when we were contacted by John Donnelly from The Breeze who informed us of the many details of the Craig/Harvard application and sat down with us to work out an innovative program to help promote the development of Canadian talent.

9790 As for myself, I have been involved in the entertainment industry for over 30 years. In the sixties, I was the owner-operator of several jazz clubs. I have managed the careers of many recording artists from folk artist Valdy, pop artist Shari Ulrich, Idle Eyes, touring bands like the Payolas and Young Saints.

9791 I also managed Claire Voyance, a renowned local jazz artist who has written scores for both film and TV, as well as producing the annual Montreal Jazz Festival for the CBC.

9792 I sit on the board of CARAS, the Canadian Academy of Recording Arts and Sciences, which produces the annual Juno Awards.

9793 I have also served on the board of directors of the Vancouver Symphony Orchestra.

9794 My exposure to and involvement in the music industry over the years has taken me around the world and given me a very diverse perception and appreciation for music in general.

9795 It is on this basis of this background in the entertainment industry that I believe Vancouver needs a jazz format proposed by The Breeze. It will provide a fresh voice for the Vancouver radio landscape. Its focus on jazz and new adult contemporary music is a format not currently available on the airwaves. It is a format that brings people from different cultures together. It is a format that crosses cultural and racial boundaries. It is the format that is most welcome on the west coast, and in Vancouver, as you know, is the city of such diverse and multicultural communities within it.

9796 More and more music is being created and produced for television, film and radio. Most of this music is being created on digital technology through the use of computer programs like ProTools and technology that involves midi synthesis, sampling and synchronization.

9797 CDIS provides its students with the skills to find their place in this growing industry. We have electronic music programs, engineering and production programs, skills development, music theory, recording arts, masters programs, and much, much more.

9798 We were, therefore, very pleased by John Donnelly's call to us. It indicated to us that the Craig/Harvard group did not only make promises about its commitment to the local community but was prepared to put its commitment into something concrete.

9799 It also indicated that Mr. Donnelly and his group recognized the importance of professional development for jazz musicians. They obviously recognized that without such skills as digital recording, our young people cannot have lasting careers in the music industry in the 21st century.

9800 The Breeze is committed to helping Canadian talent in general. Over the term of its license it will invest substantial sums in Canadian talent development, including $3.75 million for local organizations plus $1.25 million for Factor.

9801 The Breeze is especially committed to helping local Vancouver musicians, most importantly from our point of view as part of its investment in local organizations. The Breeze is committed to developing a scholarship program at CDIS.

9802 This program will give our students -- and I emphasize students -- this is not equipment or anything else that is needed for the education of these students, but for the students, the resources they need to complete their training for their new careers in jazz or the music industry in general.

9803 Working together, The Breeze at CDIS will create a program that will see students receive tuition scholarships each year. The Breeze is committed to funding these scholarships in the amount of $50,000 per year. These scholarships will directly influence the growth and development of our young talented musicians and producers and will lead to many economic benefits for the entire community.

9804 In addition, The Breeze and CDIS have been discussing ways we can work together for on-site events that will involve and enrich the entire community, i.e. broadcasting live from our state-of-the-art recording facilities, as well as video and audio streaming over the net.

9805 Vancouver needs to open its doors to a new radio format. Craig Broadcasting and Harvard Developments puts together the right application for the music industry and for radio listeners on the west coast. I, for one, personally would like to see a new player on the coast.

9806 On behalf of the entire staff and management of CDIS and on behalf of our students present and in the future, I would like to fully endorse the application by Craig Broadcasting systems and Harvard Developments.

9807 I thank you, Madam Chair and Commissioners, for your attention and for considering our comments. I would be pleased to answer any questions you may have.

9808 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Jones.

9809 Commissioner Cardozo will ask you some questions.

9810 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you.

9811 Welcome, Mr. Jones. A couple of questions focusing just primarily on the mandate of your school.

9812 In the type of training and education that you provide to your students, does the digital technology information/education, et cetera, that you provide them, does it replace basic music education or does it enhance the education of the students?

9813 MR. JONES: I would say it enhances it. We still teach the basics of recording arts, and that is where this scholarship fund would go, to those students in the recording arts.

9814 Let me give you an example about technology and music that I feel is really important.

9815 A friend of mine, Clair Lawrence(ph), who is a jazz musician, I watched him struggle for years because he was a jazz player. He would play pop, but his main focus was on jazz. Now, that gentleman moved to Montreal and because of the technology that is available he sat in his condo in Montreal or his apartment and was able to record the sound track for the Beachcombers, for example. The technology allowed him to work in his home and do it. It made it affordable for him to do it.

9816 I think with the technology that we have today, the students that study music and the recording arts, at our school especially, are 95 per cent musicians. It is much easier for them today to record outside of the studio. You can record an album in your house. You can do it in your garage. So I think all we do is enhance what is already there. It is the talent that takes advantage of it.

9817 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay.

9818 My other question relates to the scholarships that you are looking at. Would these be for all students or are they more targeted at smooth jazz students?

9819 MR. JONES: It is the recording art students, basically the musicians, the bulk of them are probably contemporary jazz-related musicians, is most of the music that is recorded. We don't get a lot of rock bands coming into the school.

9820 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So the scholarships would be more targeted to this genre --

9821 MR. JONES: Yes. We have other people that supply scholarship grants for the Web courses, for the animation courses and stuff like that. This is strictly for the students in the music part.

9822 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: That's great. Thanks very much for that information and thanks for coming here today.

9823 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. No more questions. I appreciate you taking the time to be with us today.

9824 MR. JONES: Thank you very much.

9825 MS VOGEL: Our next intervenor is Michael Fitzpatrick. Would you come forward, please.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

9826 MR. FITZPATRICK: Madam Chair, Commissioners, my name is Michael Fitzpatrick. I am currently the friendly House Manager at the Vancouver Arts Club Theatre, as well as the Vancouver East Cultural Centre. I am the Production Manager for New Music West. I have worked for the Vancouver Fringe Festival, the Vancouver International Jazz Festival, and have been involved in one way or another in the music industry in the city for the last five or six years.

9827 Therefore, I was honoured when John Donnelly from The Breeze asked me to consider sitting on their proposed volunteer advisory committee for The Breeze, which, as you know, is the Craig/Harvard application for a new smooth jazz radio station licence.

9828 I have worked with John and the Craigs on a number of their projects, including their application for a Vancouver Island TV station and their successful Sky Cable application. I know they are excellent local broadcasters. Their commitments to the local markets never fall short. Their record stands in example of what this company can achieve.

9829 The Craig/Harvard approach to use the advisory board to go out into the community and seek the input of local groups will ensure that the investments made through the CTD fund, or Canadian talent development fund, will be well thought out and will really benefit the local jazz community and arts organizations.

9830 Some of the initiatives that we have talked about include training and education which will be made available through scholarships at accredited facilities of course such as CDIS, UBC's School of Music, BCIT and Capilano College, which all have great jazz music programs.

9831 We will work with the children's festival to create an innovative children's program such as Jazz for Kids, as part of the International Children's Festival. We will also work with the Vancouver Folk Music Festival to create workshops for Canadian and local artists to work with world-class artists paid for by The Breeze.

9832 We will also create other new programming for existing festivals such as acid jazz or group jazz presentations by Canadian and local artists at the Music West.

9833 We have a great program in place with the Coastal Jazz & Blues Society to support their festival and to create a new jazz concert series and to host residencies for jazz composers and improvisers.

9834 Of course in addition to the direct funding these kinds of initiatives will receive from the CTD fund, these events will be all featured and promoted on the radio station as well as backed up on our station's interactive Web site.

9835 As a member of The Breeze's advisory board, we will ensure that local community groups who are committed to Canadian talent development are well served. They will need to be provided with information about the CTD fund and encouraged to submit proposals which suit their specific events yet serve the CRTC's mandate for promoting and fostering the development of Canadian talent.

9836 By establishing standards and guidelines, the CTD fund will provide opportunities for the community to create their own Canadian talent development initiatives which will benefit the music community and its participants.

9837 The guidelines which we have talked about will require that to receive funding an organization must be considered eligible in accordance with applicable CRTC policies that we would require that funds go directly to support Canadian artists and would not, for example, get used to fund an organization's administrative costs, and that we would have some assurances that the funding was doing what it was supposed to do by offering a 50/50 before/after kind of arrangement with the bulk of funds being provided upon receipt of a wrap-up event report type of thing.

9838 As an active member of the community, I believe The Breeze will be a great addition to the B.C. landscape.

9839 The Breeze plans to mix new AC with smooth jazz and traditional jazz and blues to provide an attractive high quality mix of music that will appeal to many different segments of the Vancouver listening community. I am aware of the tremendous work undertaken by the Craig family in their local markets and know that they are great local broadcasters. I am proud of the results they have achieved with A channel in Alberta and Manitoba, and believe Vancouver would do well to have this broadcasting family become part of our community.

9840 Therefore, I am pleased to support Craig Broadcast Systems' team for The Breeze, and pledge to do my personal utmost to ensure the highest levels of community service and support since the CRTC choose to grant this new licence. I know The Breeze will serve our community well. It will help develop a wider audience for all jazz-related music, and will give a new home to Vancouver smooth jazz and traditional jazz artists.

9841 Thank you. I would be pleased to answer any questions you may have.

9842 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Fitzpatrick.

9843 Commissioner Cardozo.

9844 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you.

9845 Thanks, Mr. Fitzpatrick for that. A couple of questions.

9846 In terms of the role that you will be playing as a member of the advisory committee, you seem to be outlining a lot of things. It is almost like you will be doing more work than the paid staff.

9847 But, correct me if I'm wrong, I think there is an important role there in terms of providing the link with the local community. When you talk about the Jazz for Kids Festival or talk about administering the funds that go to artists, making sure that they are used properly, et cetera, is your role actually doing all of that or is it more overseeing it?

9848 MR. FITZPATRICK: No. I think it is important to emphasize that our role will be definitely an arm's-length one, although we feel that we have a role in providing some direction in terms of the way the money will be used, of course the decisions that will be made for monies that haven't already been spoken for, which I can go into, if you wish, as well. But for any potential monies that may be disbursed, the idea is that independent producers, independent musicians, composers, would have the opportunity to put together a proposal as an application for funding that we would review. If it met the requirements, the CRTC's guidelines and our mandate, then we would provide the funding, but we wouldn't actually take any direct hand necessarily in the production of any events or anything like that.

9849 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: What is the top priority of the advisory committee? I understand you haven't met and all that kind of stuff, but what would you see as the most important reason for your being there?

9850 MR. FITZPATRICK: We feel that there are a couple of ways in which the local jazz community can be better served. As an agent of change, we hope to be able to provide opportunities for people to create new art and opportunities for them to showcase this new art and opportunities for them to tour it. So we want to support existing and developing local talents by providing them with the opportunities to do what they do best, which is create good art.

9851 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Lastly, as a member of the local community, what are your thoughts on the question of local ownership versus ownership from anywhere else? Quite often we talk about the big bad Toronto ownership, but Craig is sort of halfway in between. Does that make them halfway better?

9852 MR. FITZPATRICK: I think it is very easy to overstate the importance of local ownership. I think it speaks to a larger issue that has long been a contentious one in western Canadian politics and social discussion I know. I hesitate to get into a larger discussion about that, but I feel that the Craigs have the advantage of, first and foremost, being western Canadian based, as well a family organization. It is three generations of the Craig family overseeing and directing the development and growth of this organization. I think it has been demonstrated time and time again over the course of their broadcast history that they show a great deal of support for the local community in whichever community they have set up shop.

9853 I think the thousands of independent bands that got their first taste of broadcasting through the Craig's auspices could very well support that.

9854 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thanks very much for that.

9855 Thank you, Madam Chair.

9856 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Commissioner Cardozo.

9857 Thank you very much for taking the time to be with us today.

9858 MR. FITZPATRICK: Thank you for hearing me.

9859 MS VOGEL: Our next intervenor is Zeeworks. Would you come forward, please.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

9860 MR. ZEE: Madam Chair, Commissioners, my name is Jimmy Zee. I probably have the coolest name for the jazz format. I actually have a jazz name, Jimmy Zee.

--- Laughter / Rires

9861 THE CHAIRPERSON: How did that happen?

9862 MR. ZEE: It was a long Ukrainian name and it was too hard to spell so we shortened it.

--- Laughter / Rires

9863 MR. ZEE: It wouldn't fit on my package. I have a packaged line of goods.

9864 Anyway, I am a Vancouver-based --

9865 THE CHAIRPERSON: So get innovative or get --

9866 MR. ZEE: What's that?

9867 THE CHAIRPERSON: Never mind.

9868 MR. ZEE: I am a Vancouver-based songwriter and performer, and I want to thank you for the opportunity to speak at this forum.

9869 I am originally from Winnipeg and was the leader of a Gemini-nominated band called 20-20. I have resided in Vancouver for about five years and have produced several artists. I am releasing a CD for a new band called Real. I have a studio. I do session work and I also do music for movie soundtracks.

9870 Diana Krall, Metalwood, k.d. lang, Christine Duncan, Julie Blue, Lee Aaron. These artists are all household names in the Vancouver music community. They are all well known for their accomplishments, yet are getting very little airplay in Vancouver, if any at all.

9871 This seems to be the music paradox. These artists have mastered their instruments, whether it is voice, piano, guitar, whatever it is, yet there is nowhere to hear them. It is kind of ironic that the better you get at your craft, the less opportunities you have. Every single jazz or smooth jazz musician ends up in this situation. But the fact that these artists are selling CDs and supporting themselves in their careers is a testament to the fact that they are popular, even with no airplay. Someone is buying their CDs and someone likes them, even though radio formats don't work for their style of music.

9872 Recently, I was offered a situation where I was asked to write some material for a new female artist whose father is backing her and wants her to be the new Britney Spears. When I heard her voice I said, "Well, she can't sing, and she needs vocal lessons." But everyone was convinced that doesn't really matter because my songs are strong and they can fix her voice in the mix, and she can do lip-syncing for the live performances, and if they wait too long and allow her to get better, this would probably lessen her chance of success. She is only 15.

9873 Supposedly, labels aren't looking at anyone over 20 any more, so the pop world is going that way and local radio has gone with them. That is why we need a new station with a new format to support mature artists and mature audiences.

9874 I think there is no denying that there is a need for a smooth jazz new AC station. Just look at the sheer number of applicants. It seems like everyone agrees on this point, but whom should you, the CRTC, give it to?

9875 I have come to speak on behalf of the Craig/Harvard application as I have some history with the group.

9876 When the Craig group came to Winnipeg as the MTN network their involvement in the arts and support for local artists was unprecedented. They singlehandedly changed the Winnipeg market into a vibrant musical community as a direct result of the focus they created on the musical community.

9877 MTN was everywhere anything was happening, and they kept Winnipeg in touch with what was going on. It basically seemed that the other stations were doing the minimum required to pacify the CRTC and that was the extent of their local programming. Everyone does remotes now, but in Winnipeg the Craigs were the first, and if you have ever been to Winnipeg in February, this took a bit of willpower on their end. But they were always there.

9878 My band 20-20 was featured on their programs many times, which helped raised awareness of our group, which allowed us to access more audiences and got us the shows we needed to make the band grow. We had a single in the top 10 rotation as a result of requests to hear the song after a spot on the MTN showcase.

9879 During this period the Crash Test Dummies came to light. Winnipeg, which was dormant since the Guess Who, has since been a hotbed for new artists including artists like Chantal Kreviazuk, McMaster and James, and most recently Jetset Satellite, just to mention a few.

9880 I just spoke to one of my friends in Winnipeg and he said the Craig group is still committed to the musical community, has increased opportunities to artists to the change to the A channel and offers these artists greater reach for the A channel affiliates in Calgary and Edmonton. The Craig's commitment to local talent has been a key factor in the growth of the musical community in Winnipeg.

9881 I say we need a smooth jazz new AC station as soon as possible. Other metro markets have it and it works. We definitely need it, but let's give it to someone who has a track record in helping artists within the community. Let's give our local and Canadian artists the support they need. Look how far they have come with it. Imagine what they will accomplish with it, if we give them the attention they need.

9882 You know, you have a very important job. You are sitting there and you have the records on who actually has a track record of helping artists in the local market itself. Who are the stations that are applying to this bid that have helped local markets within this market? If you look at the Craigs' history and their track record, they have been very supportive.

9883 That is why I am speaking for them. I wasn't asked by anybody to do anybody any favour, but they helped me a lot in Winnipeg. That is all I have to say.

9884 Questions?

9885 THE CHAIRPERSON: Oh, yes, Mr. Zee.

9886 MR. ZEE: Yes?

9887 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Cardozo -- I just suddenly realized that -- why not "Zed"?

9888 MR. ZEE: I was trying to get that American input.

9889 THE CHAIRPERSON: You're kidding.

9890 Commissioner Cardozo.

9891 MR. ZEE: How do you spell "Zed"?

9892 THE CHAIRPERSON: Z-E-D.

9893 MR. ZEE: Okay.

9894 THE CHAIRPERSON: Do people call you, Mr. Zee?

9895 MR. ZEE: Yes, Jimmy Zee.

9896 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I won't go down that road. I will just start by saying hi. I'm tempted to, though.

9897 I just want to go back to your written intervention, which we appreciate receiving. You talked about CBC being the only alternative to, in your words, "the mindless all negative talk radio".

9898 Do you think the CBC, either One or Two, or the French channel, la Chaîne culturelle which is like CBC Two, do they or would they play smooth jazz?

9899 MR. ZEE: We are in B.C. Like, how many people speak French here?

9900 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Let's take the English one, then.

9901 MR. ZEE: They need to be more specific on their channel. I mean, when you listen it is so varied between -- like the CBC I listen to, they play classical, they play such a variety. I am more into current jazz and older jazz, not into the mix that they have.

9902 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So you think that there is a need for a station that will just play smooth jazz?

9903 MR. ZEE: Contemporary jazz and old standards. I mean, I hear -- like, I'm a little confused when they say "smooth jazz" and how they are talking -- I hear all the applicants talking about their styles, but, I mean, jazz to me, there is current jazz and there is older jazz. I mean, if they want old jazz, if they want to play that, they can go to the oldies channel. But there is, like, contemporary artists that are playing contemporary jazz that I don't think no one is really pointing towards.

9904 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: How would you describe what you would like to see? Is that contemporary jazz?

9905 MR. ZEE: I like k.d. lang. I would consider her like an AC type of artist. Then I like Duke, I like the Duke. I like old jazz and I like newer contemporary artists like Tori Amos and, you know -- where are you hearing these artists? You know, they are selling lots of albums but you're not hearing them anywhere.

9906 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Do you think there is a market for traditional jazz?

9907 MR. ZEE: For what?

9908 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Traditional jazz.

9909 MR. ZEE: I don't think so. That would probably die in the market, contemporary music as well, because you are going to try to get two sets of the market, the youth market and the older market, and more sophisticated listeners, but they are listening to contemporary jazz as well.

9910 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. Thanks very much. Those are my questions.

9911 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Jimmy Zee.

9912 MR. ZEE: Thank you.

9913 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much for taking the time to appear before us today.

9914 MR. ZEE: Thank you.

9915 MS VOGEL: Our next intervenor is Victoria Jazz Society. Would you come forward, please.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

9916 MR. MacKAY: Good afternoon, Madam Chair and Commissioners. My name is Scott MacKay. I am with the Victoria Jazz Society.

9917 The Victoria Jazz Society is a not-for-profit professional arts organization. We produce the Victoria Jazz Fest International. It is a 10-day annual festival. We are going into our seventeenth year with it. This takes place in June of every year. We also produce the Vancouver Island Blues Bash, which is a four-day blues festival in September, as well as a year-round concert series.

9918 I was asked to appear on behalf of the Craig/Harvard broadcasting application. I believe that they will commit to the development of Canadian artists in the jazz field. They have suggested that the success of our festival and the du Maurier International in Vancouver indicates that there is a market for jazz and a related musical field for broadcasting.

9919 We believe that. We have been producing the festival on a wide range of artists, from world beat to jazz and blues. Jazz is, as you have been discussing earlier, a very difficult genre to pin down.

9920 What has been referred to earlier as free jazz or traditional jazz is a fairly limited market. I believe that, as other intervenors have suggested, the time has come for this market through the aging of the boomer generation, people want to listen to a little less obtrusive music but with some skill behind it, hence instrumental music, whether it might be an Oscar Peterson or a Cuban band, but something that is a more musical field than in pop.

9921 The Breeze is committed to developing a Canadian talent program with the Victoria Jazz Society. Working with The Breeze's advisory board, we will develop the program which will see sponsorship and promotion of local artists in more high profile performances. In our festival we do use local talent. There are a lot of jazz musicians in Victoria. It is difficult for them to get funding to play outside of Victoria. Victoria is a fairly small market of 300,000 people. It is really important for them to get the exposure and to be able to travel.

9922 The Breeze can help provide financial resources that the Victoria Jazz Society needs to help further the development of the local jazz community in Victoria. They have pledged to donate $35,000 to $50,000 annually in the five-year period that we can dedicate to developing Canadian talent.

9923 We were pleased to be contacted by John Donnelly from The Breeze, who informed us of many of the details of the Craig/Harvard application and spoke with Darryl Mar, our program director, to help work out the innovative program to help further the development of Canadian talent. We were pleased to see that they recognized the importance of sharing their resources with the Vancouver Island Festival as well as with the Vancouver International Jazz Festival.

9924 Our society is committed to bringing the best music we can to Vancouver Island and to helping Vancouver Island musicians reach the widest audiences they can reach. With support like that that was offered to us, we can be more competitive. It is always a struggle, I can assure you. I work three-quarters of the year on no salary. I donate my time. We have one paid full-time position in the Victoria Jazz Society. I don't want to go into funding, but that is another area. This would be a welcomed infusion of money into the Victoria Jazz Society.

9925 We are convinced that the Craigs and Harvard are committed to helping further Canadian talent in general and they seem especially committed to helping B.C. musicians get the support they deserve.

9926 By working together, The Breeze will help us with this opportunity that Vancouver needs to open its doors to a new radio format. Craig Broadcasting and Harvard Developments have put together a great application for radio listeners here on the west coast.

9927 On behalf of the board of directors and the membership of the Victoria Jazz Society, I would like to endorse the application by Craig Broadcast Systems and Harvard Developments.

9928 Thank you for considering my intervention.

9929 I would be pleased to answer any questions you have.

9930 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

9931 Commissioner Cardozo.

9932 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you.

9933 Thank you, Mr. MacKay. I appreciate your coming here to share your views with us.

9934 Let me just understand a little more about your interest in this application. This frequency is not really going to be available in Victoria. Are you more concerned or more supportive of this because it is strengthening what we call the infrastructure in the province?

9935 MR. MacKAY: My understanding is that we should be able to receive the signal in Victoria.

9936 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. I will leave that. I stand to be corrected if that is the case.

9937 Your understanding is that it would be available, so it is the audience in Victoria as well as the artists?

9938 MR. MacKAY: Let me answer that in two ways.

9939 Their support of artists financially is a consideration obviously, but when we go to promote our jazz festival, which I do, we often go to KPLU in Seattle, which, you know, has funds going out of the country. We are not served by a full-time instrumental or jazz station. We do work with other stations in the Victoria area. We have media sponsors, 100.3, The Q, et cetera, which is a rock music station. But our audience, the people that The Breeze hopes to attract don't listen to those stations.

9940 Currently, there is no outlet for that music. The success of our festival -- I believe that our festival covers the range of artists that The Breeze would be playing, which is international and local jazz and instrumental music. Personally, aside from the Victoria Jazz Society, I believe that the market has developed probably largely because of the aging of the boomers. But I would like to have a radio station that we can hope to get to the listeners of our kind of music.

9941 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Do you find that there are many jazz musicians who do live in Victoria or for the most part would they need to move to Vancouver to make a living?

9942 MR. MacKAY: To make a living you really should be touring. I guess it depends on where you are looking at an artist in his career cycle. A developing artist needs to start in his local community or her local community, but really they need to work across the country to develop a larger audience and to hone their performance skills.

9943 Diana Krall received her beginnings with the Jazz Fest International, the Victoria Festival and the du Maurier International. She played for many years in obscurity and developed her craft. I guess the whole circle goes around. If there is radio to support the careers that have been developed in live performance, then it would help a person like Diana Krall who is enormously I believe -- she is the largest selling jazz artist in the world currently, but she is a unique example. There are a thousand Diana Krall's in Vancouver and Victoria and B.C. who, given the exposure, could go -- make larger careers for them and everybody would reap the benefits.

9944 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So at your jazz festival there are artists who are from Victoria or Nanaimo, from Vancouver Island and may or may not be living there?

9945 MR. MacKAY: I can't comment on how much of a living they make, it is very difficult to make a living in any musical performance, but in our festival we might have anywhere from 20 to 40 per cent is Canadian content, and those would be local artists, Vancouver or Victoria or Vancouver Island, but we always have -- and in our year round program we have Vancouver Island artists performing.

9946 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay.

9947 Lastly, I just wanted to ask you about Cuban jazz. A number of people have mentioned that. I am wondering which Cuban artists you would figure as smooth jazz. Would it be the Buenos Vista Social Club, for example?

9948 MR. MacKAY: I would probably call them more of a roots artist than a roots band because the type of Cuban music they play, Sone(ph), is a rural folk type of music rather than -- it's not improvised whatsoever. So I would look at more a band like Cubanismo or Morroca(ph), that sort of a band. They don't play purely improvised music, a lot of it is choreographed, but it would fit into what I believe the playlist of a smooth jazz station would play. It is enjoyable, it is melodic, it requires a higher level of skill to play rather than a lyric-based music.

9949 I guess the short shelf life of a lyric-based song or some pop songs is kind of the opposite of what you are hoping to achieve with a smooth jazz format, that being a music that is timeless.

9950 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thanks very much for being here. I spent the last couple of days in Victoria but I was there Sunday night and didn't get a chance to make it out to all those jazz bars, so it is nice to have you here to tell us about it.

9951 MR. MacKAY: I'm glad you could visit Victoria, and thank you very much for listening. I hope you will consider my intervention.

9952 THE CHAIRPERSON: I just have one question, just to clarify Commissioner Cardozo's question with respect to the signal in Victoria.

9953 I wonder if it is worth clarification from you that Victoria's unique geographic juxtaposition to Vancouver and Seattle means that it, I mean correct me if I'm wrong, receives a fair amount of out-of-market tuning from both Vancouver and Seattle --

9954 MR. MacKAY: Absolutely. Yes.

9955 THE CHAIRPERSON: -- and probably has a better Seattle signal than Vancouver.

9956 MR. MacKAY: That is correct.

9957 THE CHAIRPERSON: But the quality of the signal from both those places is not as good as what you would get locally. Is that correct?

9958 MR. MacKAY: I guess you have to take into consideration the number of people that listen to radio on cable.

9959 THE CHAIRPERSON: Oh, yes. I mean off air. I don't mean cable. I mean in your car.

9960 MR. MacKAY: In the car, no. That's why I say -- and I should say that I haven't specifically asked that of The Breeze folks. I assumed that their signal would be available because all the other Vancouver radio stations, their signal is clear in Victoria, because there are no mountains in between. You know, we just have the straits and the same going down into the Seattle-Tacoma area. So we receive their signal clearly. I mentioned KPLU, KPLU is received quite clearly into Victoria and that is the source of jazz music on radio in Victoria.

9961 They are reasonably successful, I would think. So if you need any kind of assurance that the smooth jazz format would be successful, I think KPLU probably would help clarify that and we would much rather be listening to Canadian artists because they play very few.

9962 THE CHAIRPERSON: No. I just wanted to make sure I understood the clarity of the signal issues at --

9963 MR. MacKAY: I don't think it would be a problem at all. I think it would be certainly well received.

9964 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

9965 MR. MacKAY: Thank you very much.

9966 MR. VOGEL: Our next intervenor is MarTunes. Would you come forward, please.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

9967 MR. HATLELID: Madam Chair, Commissioners, my name is Martin Hatlelid. I'm a Vancouver-based musician and a producer of special events. My background includes 23 years as a performer as well as 15 years on the business side of music.

9968 I am an avid music consumer. I listen to the radio every day -- almost all day long -- and I am familiar with literally all there is of the entertainment business. I am a big jazz fan.

9969 I have performed in literally every market in western Canada and I have had the good fortune of working with the Craigs on many opportunities.

9970 I have both performed and produced many shows in Vancouver over the past 10 years. As any of the local promoters will tell you, it is extremely important to get great broadcaster support. I have witnessed the A channel entertainment team in action and I have seen them go over the top for some of our events. I have watched the Craig and Harvard radio teams in Regina and Winnipeg be very supportive of local shows.

9971 I am also aware of the plans they are putting in place for The Breeze, live broadcasts of local groups from the Chameleon Night Club which will put a lot of new jazz combos on the map.

9972 Ian Menzies who is a local record label owner, is a pioneer of fusion-based music, jazz and group jazz, is listed as doing a show called Forays into Future Jazz, which will be very interesting radio.

9973 Jack Schueller(ph) is probably the foremost local world beat aficionado who will host a weekly show.

9974 Coastal Jazz & Blues founders, Robert Kerr and John Orsic(ph) are both on line to do weekly jazz shows as well.

9975 It is time Vancouver got a jazz station. We are ready for it. The success of smooth jazz in the U.S. has proved that major metro markets can sustain this new format.

9976 I have been following these hearings and know that a lot of people are trying to figure out what smooth jazz is. I think it is simple really. It is accessible jazz. It is generally easy to listen to but it has a progressive side.

9977 I think the upside of licensing a smooth jazz station is that we will introduce jazz to a whole new market. It will help open the doors to a wider audience which will benefit all of the music community.

9978 The most important element to having a jazz station succeed is to make it accessible. This is achieved by having a strong mix of pop crossover material, new adult contemporary mixed with jazz and blues. That is a format that the Vancouver market could really accept.

9979 Another reason I am here is that I want to tell you about my personal experiences I have had with the Craig family. They have been nothing short of fantastic to me. They have provided many opportunities to both my production company and to me personally over the past many years through their television and radio holdings. Their word has always been their bond.

9980 Therefore, it is my pleasure to provide this endorsement for the Craigs and the Craig/Harvard application for The Breeze. I'm sure they will program the very best music available in the genre. This is a very positive mix of music, new AC, smooth jazz, traditional jazz and blues and lots of great Canadian artists. I know they will deliver a strong exciting new station which will serve the Vancouver market very well.

9981 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

9982 Commissioner Cardozo.

9983 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you, Mr. Hatlelid.

9984 The first question on the Craigs. Could you give us a little more information on the kinds of things they have done to support you.

9985 MR. HATLELID: We do shows across the Prairies. It is a matter of calling them up and saying, "We are doing this" and they actually send people out to the shows. They send a reporter out, they will send a camera out and find it to be newsworthy and they will cover it. It is local, it is an event. They want to be involved.

9986 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So you would see them do more of that or do that here?

9987 MR. HATLELID: I have seen them do that. So I think that they will do that. I have no reason to think that they wouldn't do it.

9988 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: You say in your written intervention that:

"Vancouver desperately needs the exposure and support that we will only get from a jazz station." (As read)

9989 Is it fair to say, then, that your feeling is that there is a good strong base of local artists here?

9990 MR. HATLELID: Yes. I mean, I have been sitting here all day too. Everybody says that. There are lots of jazz musicians in Vancouver, and all of B.C. There is tonnes of talent here.

9991 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: You have had dealings with the Craigs before in other provinces so to you it is not important whether or not the -- if we were to licence this smooth jazz, that the licence be from Vancouver, that coming from another place is okay?

9992 MR. HATLELID: Yes. I mean, it is how they do business, you know, so they are involved in the community. I have seen them, how they are on the Prairie. I see no reason why they wouldn't be that way here.

9993 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. Well, thanks very much for your help.

9994 MR. HATLELID: Thank you.

9995 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much for taking the time.

9996 MS VOGEL: Madam Chair, that would appear to be our last intervenor scheduled for today.

9997 THE CHAIRPERSON: But I believe we have one other -- no, we don't. That's it.

9998 MS VOGEL: We don't.

9999 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. I thought we could squeeze one more in today.

10000 So that is it for today and we will start again tomorrow morning at nine o'clock.

10001 Thank you very much.

10002 I just wanted to say, tomorrow I think what we are going to try to do, because we have quite a bit of ground to cover, is, the first thing, we are going I think take just an hour for lunch, from 12:00 to 1:00 and we may sit a little later to make sure we hear everybody who is scheduled for tomorrow because we are going to try as much as we can to meet the schedule we publish because I know a lot of these intervenors take time out from their normal work to be here.

10003 And if anybody has any difficulties or needs any help, please approach the Secretary and we will do what we can to accommodate these intervenors.

10004 Thank you.

--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1650, to resume

on Wednesday, November 29, 2000 at 0900 /

L'audience est ajournée à 1650, pour reprendre

le mecredi 29 novembre 2000 à 0900