ARCHIVED -  Transcript - Burnaby, BC - 2000/11/23

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Hilton Vancouver Metrotown Hilton Vancouver Metrotown
Room Crystal III Salle Crystal III
6083 McKay Avenue 6083, avenue McKay
Burnaby, B.C. Burnaby (C-B)
November 23, 2000 Le 23 novembre 2000

Volume 4


In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages

Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be

bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members

and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of


However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded

verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in

either of the official languages, depending on the language

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.


Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues

officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront

bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des

membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience

publique ainsi que la table des matières.

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu

textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée

et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues

officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le

participant à l'audience publique.

Canadian Radio-television and
Telecommunications Commission

Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des
télécommunications canadiennes

Transcript / Transcription


Cindy Grauer Chairperson / Présidente
Joan Pennefather Commissioner / Conseillère
Jean-Marc Demers Commissioner / Conseiller
Barbara Cram Commissioner / Conseillère
Andrew Cardozo Commissioner / Conseiller
Donald Rhéaume Legal Counsel / Conseiller juridique
Marcel Touchette Hearing Manager / Gérant de l'audience
Marguerite Vogel Secretary / Secrétaire
Hilton Vancouver Metrotown Hilton Vancouver Metrotown
Room Crystal III Salle Crystal III
6083 McKay Avenue 6083, avenue McKay
Burnaby, B.C. Burnaby (C-B)
November 23, 2000 Le 23 novembre 2000

Volume 4

CHUM Limited 5023
Mainstream Broadcasting Corporation 5860
Aboriginal Voices Radio 6632

Vancouver, B.C. / Vancouver (C.-B.)

--- Upon resuming on Thursday, November 23, 2000

at 0900 / L'audience reprend le jeudi 23 novembre

2000, à 0900

5015 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. Welcome.

5016 Madam Secretary, please.

5017 MS VOGEL: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

5018 Before we start with our first applicant this morning, we have a request that if you have a cellphone, could you please turn it off; or, if you need to be contacted, could you just set it to vibrate instead of ring, please. Thank you.

5019 The first item on our agenda today is an application by CHUM Limited for a broadcasting licence to carry on an English-language FM radio programming undertaking at Vancouver.

5020 The new station would operate on Frequency 94.5 MHz, with an effective radiated power of 54,000 watts.

5021 The Applicant is proposing a smooth jazz specialty format, with 66 per cent of the music drawn from subcategory 34, Jazz and Blues.

5022 Please go ahead whenever you are ready.


5023 MR. WATERS: Good morning. Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, if I might, I would like to introduce the panel who is with me today.

5024 First of all, my name is Jim Waters. I am the Executive Vice-President of CHUM Limited and President of CHUM Group Radio.

5025 With me today, on my left, your right, is Duff Roman, Vice-President of Industry Affairs, CHUM Limited. On my right is Ross Davies, Vice-President of Programming, CHUM Group Radio. Beside him is Paul Ski, Vice-President of CHUM Group Western and General Manager of CFUN and CHQM-FM.

5026 Behind Duff is Kerry French, Director of Research, CHUM Group Radio Sales; Carl LeGrice, Director of Community Relations, CFUN and CHQM-FM; Lori Paul, Vancouver jazz artist and music educator; John Beaudin, host of "Nite Lite" on CHQM-FM; and Allan Anderson, President of the British Columbia Music Educators Association.

5027 At the third table, starting on your right, are Barry O'Donnell, General Sales Manager of CFUN and CHQM-FM; Mike Dorn of Audience Research International; and Mark Lewis, CHUM's senior legal counsel.

5028 We will now begin our presentation.

5029 CHUM Limited began as a radio company over 45 years ago. For more than half of that time CHUM has been part of the Vancouver community.

5030 In 1972 CHUM purchased a stand-alone AM station, CFUN. We were able to partner CFUN with an FM station in 1990 when we acquired CHQM-FM.

5031 This is the second time that CHUM has applied for a smooth jazz format in Vancouver. We are as convinced today as we were a decade ago that there is a format hole that is not being filled: smooth jazz.

5032 Why is CHUM uniquely qualified to provide a smooth jazz radio service? CHUM is the only national commercial broadcaster with continuing involvement in support of Canadian jazz. Over the past five years CHUM's specialty channel, Bravo!, has telecast thousands of hours of jazz performances and has covered the Canadian jazz scene. Smooth Jazz 94.5, working in association with Bravo!, will provide additional opportunities for national exposure for the dozens of local jazz artists.

5033 In addition, we have developed a unique initiative that will benefit the Canadian broadcasting system. CHUM Group Radio's new Canadian talent initiative for developing young, emerging musical artists is m.PLAY. m.PLAY stands for music, performance, learning, advocacy, and youth.

5034 Last month we unveiled m.PLAY in Calgary. The commitments we make here today for Vancouver are without precedent.

5035 Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, I am both pleased and excited to present to you now CHUM's plans for a new radio service for Vancouver.

5036 Ross...

5037 MR. DAVIES: CHUM commissioned an independent research study to examine the Vancouver radio market to determine how various formats would perform. We were delighted when Audience Research International's study confirmed what we already knew, that smooth jazz presented a unique opportunity.

5038 Though considered to be a specialty format, smooth jazz is a highly successful west coast format, with stations from Anchorage to Seattle to San Diego achieving strong rating positions in the 25 to 54 age group.

5039 One of the first of these, KTWV, the Wave in Los Angeles, ranks in the top ten in annual revenue of all of the radio stations in the United States.

5040 Vancouver is the only major west coast market that does not have a smooth jazz radio station. In fact, the only station that offers anything close to this kind of programming is our own CHQM-FM, with our long-running "Nite Lite" show hosted by John Beaudin.

5041 Smooth jazz might best be described as an evolutionary form of jazz. It is an atmospheric blend of contemporary jazz and new adult contemporary vocals. Unlike other radio formats, it is unique in sound, subtle in presentation, and refined in its mood.

5042 And while relaxing, it is also stimulating.

5043 The smooth jazz format attracts an outstanding audience, extremely upscale and lifestyle driven.

5044 We hope to expand our longstanding support of Canadian jazz artists with a new Vancouver smooth jazz radio station, and Paul will now share with you his vision for Smooth Jazz 94.5.

5045 MR. SKI: Smooth Jazz 94.5 will be truly unique in the Vancouver radio spectrum.

5046 Smooth Jazz 94.5 is committed to airing 35 per cent Canadian content and will play a minimum of 66 per cent instrumental music.

5047 While instrumental-based, these selections will possess a rhythmic pulse and compelling artistry which will allow it to become foreground radio listening.

5048 When Smooth Jazz 94.5 is not playing instrumental artists like David Sanborn and Brian Hughes, artists such as Diana Krall and Beverley Staunton will add jazz-influenced vocals to our sound. Vocals add spice to the smooth jazz mix and establish a comfort zone for new listeners to the format.

5049 Smooth Jazz 94.5 will commission independent artists, writers and producers to illuminate the Vancouver jazz scene in their own unique style through a feature called "Sound Bites". Throughout the day these "Sound Bites" provide a new and different way of keeping the smooth jazz audience up to date on local concerns, artists, venues, and album releases, interpreted and presented by people with a passion for the music.

5050 We will bring the artist to the listener and the listener to the artist. "Friday Nights On The Town" will feature local jazz artists, traditional to contemporary, performing live from Vancouver clubs.

5051 The people who know the music best are those who live and perform it daily. That is why we have engaged jazz artist and music educator Lori Paul to host the Smooth Jazz 94.5 morning show.

5052 Other special features on Smooth Jazz 94.5 include: Sunday morning "Jazz Brunch" and Ramsey Lewis' "Legends of Jazz", programming for straight-ahead jazz aficionados; "City Lights", our nightly program featuring a softer acoustic jazz; "Fresh Trax", our weekly CD release party for Vancouver and Canadian jazz performers.

5053 News and community awareness will have their own separate and distinct identities on Smooth Jazz 94.5. The specific information needs of the unique audience that the format delivers will be served by our commitment to providing detailed news coverage of major local, national and international events.

5054 So too will our community service initiatives reflect the concerns of our audience:

5055 The "Smooth Shoreline" project, a spring and fall clean-up campaign for local beaches -- followed by a smooth jazz concert.

5056 The Smooth Jazz 94.5 interactive Web site -- streaming samples of new local and Canadian smooth jazz artists.

5057 The annual Smooth Jazz 94.5 CD sampler -- featuring the best new material from local and national Canadian artists.

5058 Smooth Jazz 94.5 will boost the production and promotion of Canadian jazz recordings by contributing $378,000 to FACTOR.

5059 Finally, there is the CHUM-originated Free Ad plan for the promotion of smooth jazz artists, most of whom are virtually unknown in Canada.

5060 But our commitment goes far, far deeper in terms of developing the next generation of Canadian performers. Here is Duff Roman to tell us about it.

5061 MR. ROMAN: After consultation with music educators and the musical artist community of Vancouver, we developed m.PLAY Vancouver to specifically address the principal structural elements that underpin Canadian musical talent development.

5062 m. is for the music, particularly instrumental music, the heart and soul of smooth jazz.

5063 P is for performance, the ultimate expression of the musician's art.

5064 L is for learning, the education of the artist and the provision of the tools, the instruments; combining to make the dream real.

5065 A is for advocacy, building the case for music training and the growth of the individual who participates.

5066 Y is for youth, where the journey begins for each generation to ensure that Canadian musical expression will always enjoy pride of place at home and abroad.

5067 Smooth Jazz 94.5 will seek every opportunity to support and expand the talent pool from which we will draw, with weekly "Friday Nights On The Town", live music concerts, CD distribution through the stand-alone m.PLAY Web site, the Canadian Album Compilation project, and "Sound Bites" from the jazz scene, representing an expenditure of $1,295,000.

5068 Performance will be the most visible of these commitments. Young artists will participate in mentoring workshops in small venues, showcases and recording studios with skilled professionals.

5069 As these young artists progress they will be invited to participate in the ongoing evaluation performances, which will culminate in a regional talent showcase. Budgeted costs will total $1,715,000.

5070 Learning, however, is at the heart of m.PLAY, and we earmarked the largest budget allocation to the education of young musicians through the purchase or lease of instruments, school curriculum, and mentoring programs and production workshops.

5071 We will also ensure that the full potential of m.PLAY is realized by convening and underwriting a founding symposium of music educators and professionals to shape our policies, develop an administrative framework and set the agenda for success. Our commitment to learning is $2,751,000.

5072 CHUM will underwrite the cost of advocacy for m.PLAY's objective of stimulating interest in music as an art form, informing students of programs available through m.PLAY, and educating parents and influencing decision-makers as to the long-term benefits of music training. We have committed $1,239,000.

5073 Madam Chair, our promise to spend $7 million over seven years is a substantial commitment to Canadian talent development. To ensure that those funds earmarked for academic objectives find their way into the school system to their designated recipients, we have confirmed through our community and scholastic consultations that there are no bureaucratic barriers to legitimate contributions from corporate and other outside sources.

5074 Parent committees and volunteer groups for these purposes are the norm, not the exception, in Vancouver.

5075 In short, m.PLAY will deliver funding and other assistance to recipients with no impediments whatsoever.

5076 We now direct your attention to a brief video presentation that we believe captures the essence of m.PLAY-Vancouver.



5077 MR. WATERS: Madam Chair and Members of the Commission, when we prepared this application for a new FM radio service in Vancouver we addressed the Commission's major criteria for awarding a new radio licence.

5078 What is in it for the listener, the community, and the system?

5079 First, the listener: Our proposed smooth jazz format satisfies an unfilled need. Our 66 per cent instrumental level guarantees diversity. Smooth Jazz 94.5 will be a true smooth jazz radio station.

5080 Second, the community: We have created on-air features that will allow our new station to continue the CHUM tradition of bringing meaningful service to the communities we serve across Canada. We will provide high quality spoken word programming, utilizing local jazz musicians, and our daily morning show will feature jazz artist Lori Paul, on the air, playing and talking about the music.

5081 And finally, what does the CHUM application bring to the system?

5082 CHUM will contribute $378,000 to FACTOR over the seven-year licence period; double the required amount.

5083 m.PLAY: A multi-level program for the nurturing and development of the young Canadian musical artist.

5084 Music education is a fundamental element of learning. Language skills, math concepts, problem solving and social skills come more easily to the musically trained child.

5085 These are proven facts. We know there are budget cutbacks in many school boards, and the arts and music programs are usually hit first. Our $7 million commitment to m.PLAY can help replenish these programs. It will be done with funds directly funnelled to the recipients, just like CHUM's other successful initiatives.

5086 As you have heard from music educators and the artists, this is where to start building a strong base for the development of the Canadian music industry.

5087 If we are successful in Vancouver, we will develop similar initiatives in all CHUM markets across Canada.

5088 Madam Chair and Members of the Commission, we respectfully ask for your approval of this application and we will be pleased to answer any questions you may have.

5089 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Waters.

5090 Commissioner Cram will be questioning you.

5091 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you.

5092 Welcome, gentlemen.

5093 Next door they are trying to ignite the passion, and here we are trying to be rather reasoned and carry on a rational debate, so I apologize.

5094 Yesterday Telus was there, so we could do something about it, but today I guess we can't.

--- Laughter / Rires

5095 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I want to start by saying that when I read your file I must have misapprehended what was actually almost the format.

5096 Your letter of August 21, 2000, at paragraph 1, talked about -- you were going for the specialty format and you said, I believe, that there would be 50 per cent subcategory 34, and then subsequently that was changed to 66 per cent.

5097 If I understand it, subcategory 34 includes both instrumental and vocal, and now I read on page 9 of your presentation today that you are saying 66 per cent instrumental.

5098 MR. WATERS: Yes.

5099 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Can I just clarify that? All of your subcategory 34 will be instrumental?

5100 MR. WATERS: For the most part, yes.

5101 Commissioner Cram, if it is all right, I would like to hand this off to Paul Ski. Paul has spent quite a bit of time, prior to filing, listening -- going to different markets across the United States and listening to this format, so that we could get a good feel for what it sounded like.

5102 I think, Paul, if you share your thoughts, that would be useful.

5103 MR. SKI: Commissioner Cram, I have been sort of a fan and a student of the smooth jazz format, actually, for ten years, since we first began applying for this particular format.

5104 The format itself has been most successful along the Pacific coast, where audience shares are a little higher than they are in the midwestern United States and on the eastern coast. The majority of these radio stations play two-thirds instrumental and one-third vocal.

5105 That is really the genesis of the format. If two-thirds of the format is not instrumental, then it is really not a true smooth jazz station. And I think that I can say without question that every one of the successful radio stations in the States uses that particular formatic approach.

5106 So when we looked at it we said: What portion of our format will be instrumental? It will be 66 per cent.

5107 I think your question was: Will all of our category 34 music be in that 66 per cent and be all instrumental? No.

5108 The 66 per cent -- category 34 is --

5109 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Is separate from --

5110 MR. SKI: Is separate from, right --

5111 COMMISSIONER CRAM: -- the 66 per cent instrumental level.

5112 MR. SKI: That's correct, and it is a minimum.

5113 The vocals that we play, some of them will also be category 34.

5114 I think when we look at the format, the vocals that are played in this particular format are normally jazz influenced also, so they would also fall into category 34.

5115 There will be some AC-type selections, too. Maybe a good example of that would be Ian Tyson, for instance, who has a song on his new album "Lost Herd". Most of it is country influenced, but I think there are two selections on that CD that are jazz influenced, and we would be playing those.

5116 COMMISSIONER CRAM: If I can summarize, 66 per cent of your music will be subcategory 34.

5117 MR. SKI: That's correct.

5118 COMMISSIONER CRAM: But, in addition, 66 per cent of all music that you play will be instrumental.

5119 MR. SKI: That's correct.

5120 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I have that straight?

5121 If I can turn to page 12 of the file -- it is page 3 of Schedule 21, dated May 19, 2000.

5122 You refer to your programming, that you will be having "City Lights", "Listener's Choice", "Sound Bites", the "Dave Koz Radio Show", "Jazz Brunch", "Fresh Trax", and "Legends of Jazz". Of those which are going to be, I guess, on this station, how much of that is syndicated?

5123 MR. SKI: Commissioner Cram, two of those programs, the "Dave Koz Radio Show" and "Legends of Jazz", the Ramsey Lewis program, are the only syndicated programs.

5124 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So how many hours or minutes is that out of the total?

5125 MR. SKI: That is approximately four hours.

5126 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Out of a total of...?

5127 MR. SKI: Of the full week. It would be 126 hours, I guess.

5128 COMMISSIONER CRAM: These ones that you are talking about, they are actually highlighting the smooth jazz format.

5129 MR. SKI: You are talking about "City Lights", "Listener's Choice", "Sound Bites", "94 Live", "Fresh Trax", et cetera?


5131 MR. SKI: Those are all smooth jazz programs, but those are all local programs, locally produced by the radio station.

5132 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay. So other than "Legends of Jazz" and Dave Koz, they are all locally produced?

5133 MR. SKI: That's correct.

5134 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Therefore, they would be all Canadian produced.

5135 How many of those are from CHQM?

5136 MR. SKI: From CHQM?


5138 MR. SKI: None of those are from CHQM.

5139 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I thought you were talking about moving one over in your presentation.

5140 MR. WATERS: That is just a show that has been running on CHQM for the past several years, hosted by John Beaudin, who is behind me.

5141 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So you are going to move one over, is that it?

5142 MR. WATERS: He has done a show called "Nite Lite". I think he will move over, and the music content will move over. I guess that is the best way to put it.

5143 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So you will sort of be using a production from another radio station in this --

5144 MR. WATERS: No.


5145 MR. SKI: No. This is a truly distinct radio station. It is quite different from CHQM, just from the instrumental quotient alone.

5146 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I'm sorry, I should tell you the agenda for today.

5147 I was going to do programming, then go into CTD, then go into Cancon, then an economic analysis -- as I call them, "short snappers", miscellaneous -- and then the technical stuff.

5148 Moving on to CTD, I don't know if you have listened to us on the Internet -- and I am sure it would be scintillating listening -- but we were talking about the concept of CTD versus what, as a good radio broadcaster, you would do to promote the genre in the normal course of business, without any CTD, and what you would do to build audience in the normal course of business if CTD were not to exist, and also what you would do as a good corporate citizen, in the normal course of events, without the existence of CTD.

5149 In other words, would you do it anyway, even if it weren't CTD?

5150 Would you do it for good business reasons?

5151 I know that when I was in private business I spent a lot of money on ad and promo, simply because it built my reputation in the industry I was in.

5152 I want to have a discussion around each one of your proposals and that issue, and we have gotten a long way from the Calgary hearing where we were talking about the top and the bottom of the pyramid.

5153 Also, the second issue that troubles me somewhat is the concept that even in direct CTD there is some collateral benefit that you receive from it. I will give you an example.

5154 Yesterday we heard from the people from Future, and they were talking about having conducted a survey of the artists, and the artists said: We don't know one single initiative that is a direct CTD that has benefited us.

5155 In part, I think that is because all of the CTD benefits look like they come from the radio broadcasters. They don't look like we required it as a condition of your getting a licence.

5156 So if I look at page 32 of the file, which is Schedule 4, page 5 of 6, and if I look at any one of these -- "Nights On The Town", Web site, album compilation, "Sound Bites" -- any of the m.PLAY -- in no place --

5157 Let me ask you. In any place do you say: We are doing this because we promised the CRTC we would do it so we would get a licence? Or do you say that this is sponsored by CHUM?

5158 Easy to answer, isn't it?

5159 MR. WATERS: That was a long question.

5160 COMMISSIONER CRAM: There must be a collateral benefit of the CTD to you, in terms of goodwill, wouldn't you think?

5161 MR. WATERS: I suppose that I would be lying if I said that there isn't any collateral benefit. But I think that, historically, CHUM has always felt that part of our responsibility -- a major part of our responsibility -- is to give something back to the communities in which we operate, whether it is required by the CRTC or not.

5162 There are numerous programs that I could name to you that we co-ordinate and do on an annual basis in all of the markets.

5163 I have heard that other broadcasters do the same.

5164 I think that is really important. I think it is a critical part of the responsibility that we have, when you entrust us with these radio licences.

5165 Commissioner Cram, yes, I think that in some way there is always going to be some benefit coming back, but, regardless, I think it is very important that all of us, as broadcasters, do those things.

5166 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So really, at the end of the day, CTD has taken a bad rap because it has never been shown as being CTD. It has been shown as an initiative from the broadcaster and not as something that we require to develop talent.

5167 MR. WATERS: That is a really good -- I have never quite thought of it that way.

5168 COMMISSIONER CRAM: It's invisible, yes.

5169 MR. WATERS: To hear you put it that way, that is new to me, but I suppose that --

5170 So much of what we do -- I think that so much of what you do, and I think, quite a bit of the time, so much of what the broadcaster does -- they don't know who is doing it. They don't really know.

5171 I think the beneficiaries, a lot of the time, don't know where it is coming from. That is unfortunate, but I think that is the way it works.

5172 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I will now go to the specifics and leave philosophy aside.

5173 "Nights On The Town": $30,000 a year -- $8,000 for a broadcast line, $4,000 for production staff, $18,000 for equipment, and there will be 26 "Nights On The Town" a year. These will be live concerts?

5174 MR. ROMAN: They will ultimately result in live concerts.

5175 "Friday Nights On The Town" is a weekly feature, which will end up in 26 recorded-to-live, or, in some cases, actual live concerts on the air, yes.

5176 COMMISSIONER CRAM: But they will originate as live concerts?

5177 MR. ROMAN: In local venues, that's right.

5178 COMMISSIONER CRAM: All Canadian artists?

5179 MR. ROMAN: All Canadian.

5180 COMMISSIONER CRAM: What I don't see are any artists' fees.

5181 MR. ROMAN: That is a good point.

5182 When we put together the structure, as you can see, above the sort of darkened line, $185,000 was committed to initiatives that were specific to smooth jazz. We thought we would make a separation there.

5183 Most of m.PLAY, the vast majority of it, is committed to music at the roots level, the youth level. But we thought, for clarity, that we would show you those items that are initiatives that work, that dovetail with the smooth jazz format.

5184 When we put together these initiatives we put in the hard costs, and we talked with artists, managers and record labels with regard to how the artists would be compensated. There is just a huge variation -- everything from scale payments to situations where the label itself would absorb the cost of the artist because they feel that working with the station or being exposed on something like "Friday Nights On The Town" is important.

5185 What we concluded, and it is not shown here, is that we would pay all relevant musicians' costs on top of the m.PLAY expenses, as charted on this page. We would pay those costs.

5186 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And consider it as a cost of business.

5187 MR. ROMAN: That's correct.

5188 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay. So the entirety of the list on -- I believe it was page 32 of the record --

5189 MR. ROMAN: Yes.

5190 COMMISSIONER CRAM: All of the artist fees will be paid directly by CHUM.

5191 MR. ROMAN: That's right.

5192 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Then there is $18,000 for equipment. Is this rental?

5193 MR. ROMAN: Yes. It could be things such as portable mixing boards, stereo ISDNs, microphones, miscellaneous repairs. It is really the logistics of getting those concerts done to the quality level that the musicians themselves require.

5194 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So would it be the rental of equipment, or would you be purchasing --

5195 MR. ROMAN: Rental. In other words, we are not getting this equipment and putting it in as part of our broadcast gear.

5196 No, we go out and rent from third parties.

5197 COMMISSIONER CRAM: On a scale of 1 to 10, 1 being what you would do to build audience anyway, 10 being solely for the purpose of creating Canadian talent, where would this stand?

5198 Wouldn't you do this in the normal course of business anyway?

5199 MR. ROMAN: My answer would be a lot closer to 10 than 1, and I will tell you why, in my opinion.

5200 It is that all of these are not required to run a good, smooth jazz station.

5201 If we were talking generically about being good, professional broadcasters, we wouldn't have to do live concerts. We could do live concerts --

5202 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Wouldn't you want to be in the community?

5203 MR. ROMAN: There are many ways of being in the community. What we are saying is that we are specifically indicating that we will pay the costs of doing these live concerts, because we think it is a benefit to the music community.

5204 Getting their CDs played on a smooth jazz station and getting the free ad plan and associated support are what the artists really need.

5205 When you are able to add something such as a live concert, I think there is really, essentially, a good comfort zone and a vibration between the artists. But, essentially, we were very careful to say that we could run a smooth jazz station without any of these so-called above-the-line costs. These are in addition to just being good broadcasters.

5206 MR. WATERS: Commissioner Cram, I would like to ask Lori if she would like to add something as an artist in Vancouver.

5207 MS PAUL: Madam Chair, I would like to say that although providing live concerts locally does seem to be a given for local radio stations, it very rarely happens. So I would like to comment on that, if I may.

5208 COMMISSIONER CRAM: You mean in any genre.

5209 MS PAUL: Yes, that's true.

5210 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Moving on to the Web site, essentially you are going to distribute local CDs. That is the concept?

5211 MR. ROMAN: Canadian CDs, local, primarily from the Vancouver area, but Canadian CDs.

5212 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay. And $50,000 for design and maintenance a year for the site; $10,000 for handling and shipment; $6,000 for financial orders.

5213 How are you going to promote the site?

5214 MR. ROMAN: There will be cross-promotion on our radio station, but also that site will be self-promoting on the Web site, of course. It will be mentioned in our advocacy component, which is a full bore printed material and media campaign to let people know about m.PLAY.

5215 If necessary, we will take ads. We will do whatever is required to bring it to the attention of the music community. Certainly, with our connection to FACTOR, that information will be circulated to all musicians, particularly to Vancouver area musicians, through the Regional Advisory Board for Vancouver of FACTOR.

5216 We essentially will get the word out. I am sure that anyone who is interested in jazz music and anyone who makes jazz music will be aware of this Web site.

5217 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Would you promote it on Bravo!?

5218 MR. ROMAN: We have talked about our interaction with Bravo!, and it seems to me that the Canadian jazz community is very, very tightly knit and feels that we are all sort of in it together. The response we have received from Bravo! about m.PLAY, generally, and the jazz component in Vancouver, smooth jazz in particular, has been outstanding. There is real interest.

5219 I don't want to be revealing anything here, but when Jim Waters says that we are considering rolling this out across the country, there is likely going to be a television component, in a sense, with Bravo!.

5220 MR. WATERS: Thanks, Duff! No pressure.

5221 Commissioner Cram, I think we actually have a bit of a problem on Bravo!, as far as actually promoting the radio station or the Web site.

5222 COMMISSIONER CRAM: The site, I thought, would be separate. It's separate, isn't it, from yours? It is essentially like an independent -- it's like whatever you call it -- the indie pool, isn't it?

5223 MR. WATERS: I was thinking more in terms of the actual radio station itself, but, yes, I suppose we could promote the Web site.

5224 COMMISSIONER CRAM: When we are talking about this Web site, it is essentially going to be like indie pool.

5225 MR. WATERS: Yes.

5226 COMMISSIONER CRAM: But free, at least for seven years, for the musicians.

5227 MR. WATERS: Yes.


5228 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Hopefully. I haven't asked that question yet.

5229 The next question is: At no charge to musicians?

5230 MR. WATERS: Yes.

5231 COMMISSIONER CRAM: What happens after the seven years?

5232 MR. WATERS: It continues.

5233 COMMISSIONER CRAM: No charge to the musicians?

5234 MR. WATERS: Yes.

5235 MR. SKI: Commissioner Cram, excuse me. I think that we see this particular Web site as a meeting place, also, in some of our discussions with jazz musicians. It will be a focal point for them. There will be chat rooms, et cetera, where they will be able to discuss their craft, et cetera.

5236 COMMISSIONER CRAM: What are your projections on the number of CDs that you will be handling through the site?

5237 MR. ROMAN: Boy, that is a good question.

5238 We are really trying to look at how much work it would take. For instance, when we were setting out our handling and shipping costs, we saw that there would be about 20 hours of work with regard to handling and shipping. We haven't done the math in terms of how many pieces or CDs that handling and shipping would entail.

5239 It is really hard to tell. We are essentially not in the CD retail business; we are in the exposure of Canadian content business. So that is maybe some math we could do, but it didn't seem necessary to the process. The idea was getting the Web site up, making it available to Canadian artists, in terms of showing their wares, and then doing the fulfilment, doing the handling, and getting that done.

5240 So I can't give you a finite answer to that.

5241 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So you didn't work out the $10,000 handling and shipping cost based on a per CD basis.

5242 MR. ROMAN: No. We thought that it would take about 20 hours of work a week. That is the way we looked at it.

5243 MR. WATERS: Commissioner Cram, I'm sorry to interrupt, but the other night when we were talking about the Web site, specifically, we were having a conversation with Lori, who has her own Web site, and she had some interesting comments about this project. If I might ask Lori just to --

5244 MS PAUL: I was very hopeful when I released my CD in 1998 that the Web site would be the way for me to sell units, because distribution was almost impossible to come by.

5245 I am very excited about this station's willingness to offer distribution, but I am especially excited about the opportunity to have a link set up, perhaps to my Web site, or that capability, because what I found was that it is well and good to have a Web site available, but if no one has heard your name and no one knows how to get in touch with you, or realizes what format it is that you fall under, it is very difficult to get the exposure you need.

5246 I believe that an association with a smooth jazz radio station would have made all of the difference in the world in terms of the hits I would have received on my personal Web site.

5247 MR. ROMAN: Commissioner Cram, in our discussion we ballparked about 15 transactions a day.

5248 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay. So I take it that you are -- I don't want to use that word --

5249 You are expecting, but without any research, that there will be a growing demand for that.

5250 MR. ROMAN: Yes, and I think Lori just confirmed that.

5251 We are working closely with the artistic community. Yes, we expect it to grow like topsy.

5252 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Would you be selling the CD compilation through this also?

5253 MR. ROMAN: Oh, yes. It would be available in stores. It would be available on the Web site. Anyone that we could form an alliance with.

5254 COMMISSIONER CRAM: If at the end of the year you found that you didn't need $50,000 in years 2, 4 and 7 for maintenance of the Web site, what happens to the money?

5255 MR. ROMAN: With virtually any of our funding that doesn't get disbursed for a particular component, most of it, invariably, will go back to the learning component of m.PLAY, for, again, youth, students, music instrument purchase -- anything that essentially qualifies as a CTD initiative under the big umbrella.

5256 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay. Call me paranoic, but at the end of seven years you may have a fairly substantial business selling CDs and handling CDs and becoming a competitor to indie pool.

5257 I mean, you want to be successful, and at the end of the day you may, in fact, be competing with other sort of sellers on the web, and have some value in that.

5258 MR. WATERS: You are way ahead of us. We weren't really thinking that way. I think that what --

5259 COMMISSIONER CRAM: It's my paranoia. It is the incipient paranoia.

5260 MR. WATERS: I think that when we develop a program such as this, we are thinking more in terms of helping the artists, as Lori described, to get more exposure, getting their music exposed, and making it easier for the listeners at large to have access to that music.

5261 So we weren't really thinking of this being a profit centre.

5262 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So you would sort of make it into a co-operative and give up your ownership of it?

5263 MR. WATERS: I think we would probably want to --

5264 No, we probably wouldn't want to do that.

5265 COMMISSIONER CRAM: The point is, though, if it is successful, it will be a business that has value. And when we talk about sort of the collateral benefits that come from it --

5266 MR. WATERS: I think it would be safe to say that, in the way that CHUM conducts itself in situations like this, we would put that money back into the operation, into our Canadian talent initiatives, as Duff said. I think that is where the money should go.

5267 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yesterday -- and it's a learning experience -- we also heard that artists were saying that a Web site, while interesting, is, in terms of usefulness, on a scale of 1 to 10, about a 2, unless there is airtime on, at least, what they call a medium rotation.

5268 So if I look at this, in and of itself, alone, and based on that kind of assessment, I say: What is its value to CTD without a concomitant commitment to -- and I am not saying air it once; I am saying a medium rotation commitment.

5269 Ms Paul, would you like to comment on that?

5270 Isn't the value more in airtime and in rotation?

5271 MS PAUL: Certainly, rotation is crucial. There is no question about that.

5272 I think that 35 per cent Cancon is the figure I am pretty happy about.

5273 I would have to say that, in terms of rotation, so much of that has to do with what listeners respond to, as well. While you initially would like to get your name out there, and obviously through a radio station, through listeners, that is crucial, essentially you rely on your music to, hopefully, reach the audience you are looking for and catch on.

--- Background noise / Bruit de fond

5274 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you.

5275 I'm sorry. I am going to get an ear plug, and it is not to hear you, it is just to --

5276 THE CHAIRPERSON: I just want to say that we are doing what we can to deal with what is going on next door. Unfortunately, there is not much we can do. We are going to try to, at least, time our breaks so that --

5277 I apologize. I'm sorry.

5278 Now that I have interrupted you once --

5279 The one thing we do have is that the translation devices can be used, if any of you are too distracted, to minimize the noise.

5280 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Turn it to English, if you speak English.

5281 MR. ROMAN: Commissioner Cram, could I add to where Lori was going with that?


5283 MR. ROMAN: I think that every artist wants to come in through the system with regard to the quality of the musical work, in terms of the amount of airplay and rotation it gets.

5284 I think that, obviously, we are going to be very open minded in that area.

5285 But I just want to make one thing clear, and that is, there is $126,000 in indirect commitment to the CHUM Free Ad Plan, which will be directly linked to telling people where these CDs can be available, either at retail or at the Web site.

5286 MS PAUL: Also, Madam Chair, if I may add, when I released my CD in 1998 there was no local radio station that felt the format of my CD suited their radio station. I believe this is one of the reasons why it was so -- it was such a difficult sell for me.

5287 The quality of production I was very pleased with. It certainly was very positively responded to, but I simply didn't have a radio station that felt I fit in their format.

5288 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So we are back to airtime. I have made my point. Do you want to make any comments? I don't want to close you down.

5289 Medium rotation airtime --

5290 MR. SKI: I'm not sure. What exactly was the question you were getting at, Commissioner Cram?

5291 COMMISSIONER CRAM: What do you think the value of a Web site is without the concomitant commitment for what was called medium rotation airtime?

5292 MR. DAVIES: There is no doubt -- and I agree with Mr. Roman and Lori -- that airtime is still the kingpin. You need to have that.

5293 I think the component of the Web site clearly is small now, but it can only get bigger and bigger. And do the two work together? Absolutely.

5294 People with Web sites, if they don't have people to drive traffic into them, they aren't going to succeed. We have a great opportunity with this radio station to drive traffic into that Web site.

5295 It is small now, but I do see them linked. But clearly the airplay is the key. But they are going to work together, and as this Web site thing grows and grows, it is going to become even more effective.

5296 But airplay -- I don't think anyone is going to disagree with the value of airplay. Absolutely.

5297 MR. ROMAN: Commissioner Cram, this might help a bit too, and that is, because of the Web sites it is the first time that an independent artist, or an artist who is having difficulty getting distribution or dealing with a record label, actually has a meaningful way of reaching the public at retail.

5298 What has happened with the Internet and Web sites is clearly earth shattering, in the sense that getting into a front rack position, or getting into that retailer --

5299 You know all about that stuff. That's difficult.

5300 So often the airplay was, if I might say, sort of empty airplay. A lot of exposure and, maybe, if you were lucky, you got some airplay royalties through SOCAN. But down where the rubber meets the road at retail, if that retailer isn't going to rack your product, it is sort of --

5301 It's great. It's very nice for the ego -- and I am sure Lori would agree with that -- to get all of that airplay, but if her manager, producer or record company can't get into that retailer and have it shelved or stocked meaningfully, then there is nowhere to turn.

5302 What has happened with the Web sites, and why even Lori and other independent artists have their own Web sites, is to cut through to that ultimate consumer: If you like my CD, here is a way to get it.

5303 Ultimately you will be downloading it digitally, but I am sure, in the meantime, it is going to be through fulfilment, courier delivery, parcel post.

5304 That CD is ultimately going to get to those people who want to listen and enjoy the CD, even if they can't find it on a retail shelf.

5305 COMMISSIONER CRAM: If I could move on to the compilation CD. Can you tell me, in your experience, what is the long-term value of a compilation to the artists?

5306 MR. ROMAN: The long-term value.

5307 COMMISSIONER CRAM: You have done compilations for however many years you have been in business. I see it as a compilation created by CHUM, with 12 nameless people on it.

5308 Where did that get the artists in the end?

5309 Please don't take me in any derogatory sense, but the point is, where did it get any individual artist?

5310 MR. WATERS: Commissioner Cram, everybody probably has something to say about this, but I think one of the best examples I can think of currently for CHUM is the CD that CHOM does in Montreal every year, where they have -- it is kind of, I suppose, a talent contest of sorts. It gives those artists an opportunity to first get recorded properly, in a good studio situation, and get on to CDs. And it is out there. It is distributed. Who knows who in the industry may pick up that CD and say: Oh, there is something here. These ten artists have done some new music. Let's listen to it. Maybe we can find a diamond in the rough.

5311 I think there is always that possibility. I think it is, at least, a first step to getting recorded and getting exposed to those out there who, in this case, would be interested in jazz music.

5312 I think that anything like that that can give a boot to the system is a positive move.

5313 MR. DAVIES: It is not going to make them rich and famous off the bat, but I think, as Jim was saying, it is probably the first tangible thing that these young musicians have to get on their way and to say: I am a musician. I have something here. Even though I am sharing this CD with 11 other artists, here it is.

5314 They do get airplay. Our Program Director in Montreal sends his CDs to all of our CHUM stations across Canada, and while we may not be able to play it at Paul's station here in Vancouver because its format is not compatible, a lot of our stations do play them, and they do get exposure.

5315 I am trying to think --

5316 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Who did you kickstart?

5317 MR. DAVIES: I am trying to think of examples. Frankly, it wasn't one of our CDs, but I can give you two stories.

5318 One, I think, there was a band called Wide Mouth Mason, who was --

5319 COMMISSIONER CRAM: From Saskatchewan.

5320 MR. DAVIES: There you go. It may have been on one of the other radio station's early CDs.

5321 Those bands, they go to record companies. It gives them something to go into an A and R director at a record company and say: Look, this is what I have. That does have impact.

5322 We can go all the way back to what CHUM-FM started -- Duff, you will have to help me, because this was maybe 20 years ago -- with a band called The Kings in Toronto, where we kind of originated this concept, giving them an opportunity to record a CD with Bob Ezrin.

5323 The Kings, with that song, went on to get a record deal and became somewhat successful.

5324 So those things do have some value -- some tangible value. It is not the be all and the end all, but it is a beginning for these artists.

5325 MR. ROMAN: I think you add in the fact that it is the best new material from, primarily, local jazz artists. We shouldn't make it more than it is, but what it is is very important, and that is, a stepping stone, first recording, first exposure, and the weight of the smooth jazz station in support of those artists.

5326 For an unrecorded artist, or someone who is not plugged into the mainstream or has not evolved to that level of having a record label -- most of these will not have record labels -- this is a major step in their exposure. It is a calling card for their self-promotion.

5327 COMMISSIONER CRAM: There is no money, the staff briefing tells me, for recording these. Or am I wrong?

5328 MR. ROMAN: No. In this case the material is supplied to us. In the case of the compilation, it is supplied to us. They come from independent recording sessions. Virtually every artist has a technical facility. And then we will take it and master it. We will improve it and tweak it. We have printing in there, but, if you see it, there is a component for mastering. That really is getting it into shape for wider use or for airplay use.

5329 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So there is no contest to sort of build up momentum. What happens? The artists submit their CDs, and you get 700, and you need to pick out 12. How is that handled?

5330 MR. LeGRICE: Commissioner Cram, under the Music Mentoring Program we have budgeted for juries to sit every three months to assess people who will go into the mentoring program. Those juries could very well help us to narrow down the field for the compilation album.

5331 Some of the people who come out of the mentoring program could indeed end up on the compilation CD, because the mentoring program is designed to give them a master tape that they can shop to record companies.

5332 COMMISSIONER CRAM: You haven't gone to the industry to ask them if they would provide you with some way to pick them, such as a jazz society or somebody?

5333 MR. WATERS: We could certainly do that here.

5334 I think that one of the other areas that we could explore here is "Friday Nights On The Town", when we are recording live performances. We could certainly take performances off there and have those end up on the compilation CD.


5336 MR. WATERS: Commissioner Cram, if I might, back at the beginning of the discussion you talked about: Would you do some of these things if you didn't have to do Canadian talent development initiatives. I think, in a situation like this, this is something that we should do.

5337 There are a lot of broadcasters -- and I don't need to tell you -- who do this sort of thing. I think it is particularly in a format that really is just starting to get a life in Canada.

5338 You have licensed a station in Ontario, and hopefully there will be a couple more in the west. I think that anything we can do to give those young jazz Canadian artists some exposure is worthwhile. It is at least an effort to help them move ahead. I think it is very important.

5339 It may seem small. You know, we wish we could say that it is a ten-out-of-ten home run, but I think it is something important that we are at least attempting to help these artists, one way or another. I think that is very important.

5340 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you.

5341 "Sound Bites": Sixty seconds, third party interviewers, essentially sub-contractors. Wouldn't you be doing this, again, in the normal course of business?


5342 MR. WATERS: I won't fight you for the microphone.

5343 MR. ROMAN: All I was going to say is that features such as "Sound Bites" do not have to be produced by third parties or done outside the station.

5344 I was just going to start the dialogue by saying that this is another way of providing funds to Canadian musical talent to make sure there is an infrastructure for getting the word out about what is going on, what is happening in town, information about new releases.

5345 You don't have to do that, but we felt that if we could provide these funds to third parties, that would be a useful way of creating, again, another part of the important infrastructure of the promotion and development of Canadian music.

5346 It wouldn't have to be done that way. Normally, as the sort of cost of doing business, we don't really go out to third party producers. We don't really go out to use other technical facilities.

5347 To me, it qualifies, from that aspect, as a CTD.

5348 COMMISSIONER CRAM: If it were considered by the Commission unacceptable, would you do it in any event, or something similar?

5349 MR. SKI: I think we would, Commissioner Cram. We might do it internally, with some of our own program hosts.

5350 It was very interesting, when we first started to make this application public and talked to various smooth jazz musicians about the programming pieces, including some of the syndicated shows that you alluded to earlier -- which we are re-thinking a bit, just because a number of the jazz artists said: I could do that kind of show. I have been around for quite a long time. I know about the history of jazz. Maybe I could do it.

5351 So we are re-thinking a few of those things, also just because we do have the talent here to do those types of programs.

5352 By the same token, when we started talking publicly about the application, we did have a number of these jazz artists saying: I would like to come in and do that type of programming on your radio station. I could play my guitar or my sax, or whatever, and talk about various elements of the jazz genre.

5353 We want these to be really special; what we might call "deep footprint" types of programming features, so that they have a lasting effect with our audience. And we think we might best do that with third party people who are focused on those particular programs.

5354 MR. BEAUDIN: If I may add, some of the local musicians we talked to actually came up with better ideas than we had. They had great ideas as to how to promote their music. They had seen the holes, as in not getting out there.

5355 We have a lot of local musicians who want to host these specific programs, and they have great ideas.

5356 As Paul mentioned, we are re-thinking some of the syndicated shows because, quite frankly, their ideas are better to promote local talent.

5357 COMMISSIONER CRAM: It sounds like you need to hire some musicians as consultants.

5358 At the end of the day -- and I am coming up to the genre specific --

5359 I'm sorry. Mr. Roman, if we don't accept this as a CTD, you do say that you would move it into concert performance?

5360 MR. ROMAN: Usually the learning component, but any of the qualified CTD initiatives under m.PLAY.

5361 COMMISSIONER CRAM: All right. Thank you.

5362 If we accepted all of this -- and you call it in your memo "genre specific" -- and I do apologize, gentlemen; I didn't bring my calculator, and this is my thing. The genre specific CTD adds up to $1.2 million over the seven years, and non-specific adds up to $5.7 million, which means, in this case, once again, that about one-sixth of the total CTD is going to the specific genre that you propose to air on this station that you have applied for.

5363 I think it is in between one-fifth and one-sixth. I apologize for the lack of ability to be more precise.

5364 I would like an explanation of that. In light of the fact that in your financial projections you say that this is a new format and it needs time to grow, presumably you would be investing in it.

5365 Can you give me some rationale for the allocation?

5366 MR. ROMAN: I will start by saying -- and I am just trying to get the math clear --

5367 COMMISSIONER CRAM: $1.2 million over a total of 6.9 --

5368 MR. ROMAN: And that is the rate of what?

5369 Yes, $185,000 a year would mean $1,295,000.

5370 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I rounded it off to $1.2 million, in your favour.

5371 MR. ROMAN: All right.

5372 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And $5.7 for the non-specific. I think that is all at page 31 of the file, which is Schedule 4, page 6 of 6. Excluding factor. I will get to that later.

5373 What I did is, I added $1.2 million plus $5.7 million, for a total of $6.9 million. I then divided 6.9 by 1.2 and came up with -- it's around one-fifth or one-sixth.

5374 MR. ROMAN: I guess, just as I started the preamble here -- and others will be joining us -- it seems to me that in a lot of cases the other applicants have been very genre specific in terms of where they are going with their CTD. But, philosophically, this still flows out of m.PLAY. We made a very important philosophical decision that the bulk of the initiative would go toward the development of youth in music, and that was the crying need in terms of CTD.

5375 I have done a little math, and I think it might be very useful to take us through --

5376 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I like math.

5377 MR. ROMAN: Do you? Great.

5378 We have come to the conclusion, based on our analysis and our interaction with the music community, that certain levels of the music continuum are very well served. One of those levels is the FACTOR level. The next level is the Star Makers level; that there is going to be money applied to the production of recordings.

5379 At FACTOR, for instance, they have a process by which they evaluate applications that come in, and one of the bottle-necks is that they will not compromise their standards with regard to funding projects that the jury system doesn't think have a chance for either airplay or retail.

5380 Our dialogue with FACTOR is, something has to be done about the quality of the music that is going into these juries. That, in a sense, is where m.PLAY comes in.

5381 So, yes, it is useful to throw money at the immediate sort of genre specific areas of CTD, but in terms of getting longer benefits, but not really long-range benefits, we think that m.PLAY is going to actually show up very rapidly.

5382 We are dealing with youth. We are dealing with people like a Casey Stiles who, three and a half years prior to his appearance before the Commission in another venue, had not even picked up a violin. It can happen very quickly. The kind of directions we are taking with m.PLAY will have long-range benefits to the system and show fairly impressive short-term gain with regard to getting records done and artists into careers that they can actually be grounded in and make a living at.

5383 That was our thinking going into this, and when you look at where we have gone with, as you said, one-fifth or so of the overall total, we think that is significant.

5384 We also think that when you are dealing with a specialty format the impact is going to be rather more quickly than others might think; that people who like jazz will be very aware of this format and this genre in the Vancouver market.

5385 MR. DAVIES: Commissioner Cram -- and, Duff, excuse me if I didn't hear all of your answer, but I think the FACTOR commitment -- I don't know if this was included in your math, as well --

5386 COMMISSIONER CRAM: No, it wasn't.

5387 MR. DAVIES: Because that is jazz specific, as well.

5388 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Actually, the file didn't say that. So that is why I had taken it out of my equation.

5389 MR. DAVIES: But it is.

5390 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I will recalculate it immediately.

5391 Based on that allocation, do you believe that there is sufficient inventory, or not a paucity of inventory in this genre?

5392 Like, it can take care of itself because -- and I understand. I was in Calgary. I know I have 10 per cent more IQ because I took music, although certainly not in some areas.

5393 So I understand the benefits of m.PLAY. But it would seem to me that, in considering this, you would first consider: How am I going to be able to have enough to run my station without burning artists? And then you would move from that.

5394 MR. SKI: I think, since most of these artists haven't had much exposure in Vancouver and, indeed, in Canada, the chances of burning them are pretty slim.

5395 We put together, I think, a list of over 300 selections -- just Canadian selections -- that we could also play. I mean, it is quite extensive.

5396 Programming is both an art and a science. When we look at playing these songs, and look at what we would call, not to get too technical, horizontal and vertical rotations of the songs, and the average listening time period that a person spends with the radio, et cetera -- I mean, we look at some of these songs, depending on whether they are older songs or newer songs, maybe being exposed, again, depending on the format, once every two to three days, once every month, or once every two or three months, depending on what the song may be.

5397 But I would like to come back to -- I don't want to call it a discounting of these other items. I know in talking to Allan Anderson -- and Allan may want to make a comment on that -- that items such as the workshops, maybe some of the equipment grants that we have, some of the music mentoring -- we can't say that that is a long distance away from producing material that we would be playing on the air.

5398 Some of the things that are in under learning and performance would probably elicit musical recordings that could be played on the air within a period of, maybe, a few months, if all a person needed was maybe a little more mentoring; maybe the tuning of their equipment. It might be something as simple as that.

5399 Allan, would you like to comment on that?


5400 MR. ANDERSON: Yes. Commissioner Cram, I am seeing in high schools now students creating their own CDs. At my own high school, we make our own CDs, and students are performing. It is one of many throughout the whole province.

5401 I go to conferences, or big festivals like Musicfest Canada, for example, which is in different cities and various places, and I see thousands of kids excited -- just really tickled about everything that is going on in a positive manner, as opposed to some of the negative things we hear about schools.

5402 I won't get into advocacy, because that is not what I was asked, but I have to say that. That is really critical.

5403 Those kids are doing it now. And I will guarantee that there are many students coming out of high school right now who are very prepared to have airtime.

5404 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I am going to take a little break from the CTD and give Messrs. Waters and Davies a little break.

5405 What is the Langley Community Music School? It was on the video.

5406 Mr. Anderson, I assume you would know.

5407 MR. LeGRICE: Commissioner Cram, the Langley Community Music School is a new facility being built in the Fraser Valley. Its director is Mr. Ian Hampton, who formerly worked for the Academy of St. Martin's in London. He has an excellent track record, and he will be appearing as an intervenor next week, so you can talk to him.

5408 MR. DAVIES: Commissioner Cram, if I may, there is one little thing. Can I go back and talk about the pyramid?


5410 That was the last hearing.

5411 MR. DAVIES: I understand that, but it has so much relevance to this whole issue of m.PLAY.

5412 I believe it was an appearing intervenor from a competing application in Calgary who actually spoke about the pyramid.

5413 A key component of m.PLAY is getting the base of that pyramid larger. That is what m.PLAY specifically deals with.

5414 When it comes to jazz, I happen to think that $1.5 million is pretty significant going to the jazz community when it has never been done before here in Vancouver. That is very significant.

5415 Another component of m.PLAY, which deals with music education for children -- and as we found in our preparations for these hearings, both in Calgary and here, jazz is a difficult genre to learn for young students.

5416 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And older.

5417 MR. DAVIES: Indeed. But in the school system it is too complicated. It is very intricate. It comes later in life.

5418 m.PLAY deals with getting these musicians started in music. A lot of jazz musicians today actually started in classical training and things like that, and evolved into the jazz genre.

5419 So I think that helps build that pyramid. I think we would be remiss to forget that. That is a key component of this initiative.

5420 MR. ROMAN: Do you want more pyramid math?

5421 Ross?

5422 You used the term "bang for the buck", and the difficulty in quantifying something like m.PLAY versus something that is specific to, say, the jazz community --

5423 For instance, on something like the instrumental rental program, we are committing $300,000 a year to instrumental rentals. Here is how we see the base of the pyramid creating a good solid foundation for the music stars of tomorrow, jazz genre or not; that is, at roughly $20 per instrument per month rental over ten months, we would be spending about $200 per student. That one year would see support for 1,500 students.

5424 Over seven years 10,500 student years would be supported by this one component.

5425 Then you add in the workshops of $329,000 over seven years, mentoring at $371,000 in direct cash assistance over seven years, and then the FACTOR contribution of $378,000 with regard to the production of jazz recordings. We think the math becomes fairly impressive.

5426 But the real difficulty was in quantifying things such as support for students, the instruments, the workshops and the mentoring. I think that when you start to do that kind of cost-benefit analysis, you have to admit that in fine arts, or musical arts, that is really difficult to do.

5427 But I think that might be helpful to you.

5428 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you. You are answering my questions from last time.

--- Laughter / Rires

5429 MR. LeGRICE: Commissioner Cram, when you came up with the figure of $1.2 million, you achieved that by adding up budget items 1 through 5, or what we call "above the line".


5431 MR. LeGRICE: We differentiated that based on items we thought would contribute directly to programming.

5432 I think, in terms of being genre specific, which I believe was your terminology, we could also include under m.PLAY in the budget -- you could include the performance series. What we do in the intimate concert series, that will be genre specific. Those will be jazz artists in local venues. And we can include the music mentoring program. Those will be jazz artists we will be developing. Those two items amount to approximately another $100,000 per year.

5433 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you. I was actually just using your terms from page 6 of 6.

5434 On FACTOR, I didn't see in the file that you were going to make it genre specific. You are insisting that it be genre specific?

5435 MR. WATERS: Yes.

5436 COMMISSIONER CRAM: What about geographically specific?

5437 MR. WATERS: That would be terrific. If that can be done, if it can be aimed toward Vancouver, that would be best, certainly.

5438 I don't think it would be unfair to try to guide FACTOR totally that way, but if they could give a good portion of it to Vancouver, that would be fabulous.

5439 COMMISSIONER CRAM: You haven't looked into that at all.

5440 MR. ROMAN: Speaking as a director of FACTOR, that is a fair request made by broadcasters all the time, and that would not represent a problem.

5441 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So will you be making that request to FACTOR?

5442 MR. WATERS: Yes, we will, Commissioner Cram.

5443 COMMISSIONER CRAM: The Chair thinks that we should be taking a break soon, because the passionate people next door are taking lunch at 11:30.

5444 THE CHAIRPERSON: And they are leaving the premises until one o'clock. So if we plan to sit through that period, we might at least have a piece of peace.

5445 Would this be a good time to take ten minutes, and then we would come back and sit through to one o'clock?

5446 What I would like to do is ask the next presenter, which I believe is Mainstream -- hopefully they won't take too much time to set up, so we can move through it quickly, because I want to be able to take advantage when we get there of that hour and a half of peace and quiet.

5447 MR. SKI: We appreciate that, Madam Chair. Thank you.

5448 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I know. It is very distracting. They were playing music earlier. I thought that maybe broadcast would have some clout with them next door.

--- Upon recessing at 1023 / Suspension à 1023

--- Upon resuming at 1040 / Reprise à 1040

5449 THE CHAIRPERSON: Continue, please.

5450 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you, Madam Chair.

5451 I am now going to your favourite topic, m.PLAY. I am breaking it down into certain categories. First, advocacy, which is $245,000 a year, which, if I can precis, will be for print and video material showing "music as an artform" from preschool to high school: $10,000 for print and material design; 150 K for printing; 10 K for packaging, art and duplication; $75,000 for videos.

5452 What is in the material?

5453 MR. ROMAN: Essentially, that is going to be really defined in the symposium.

5454 You notice that it has taken us this long to get to "the symposium". But, essentially, the consultation process is really ensuring that the material in the advocacy package is going to be what the educators, the parents, and even the students contribute through dialogue at the symposium.

5455 We see it as an outline of career options, an outline of where to get higher learning degrees in music education, how to make career choices. These are the consultations that we will have to undertake with the professionals who are committed to improving the school system.

5456 I think that Allan Anderson could probably tell us a little more about that. But we have made it clear that we will attack this problem of underfunding, of cuts, and the feedback we got back from the community was: You have to get the influential people who make decisions, parents and all of those decision-makers, apprised of the problem. You have to make sure that they understand it. That was part of advocacy.

5457 Then they said: Once you have their attention, you have to go out of the way to improve the system. Help us with teaching aids. Help us with curriculum building. Help us make it better.

5458 From that aspect, I think that Allan, as President of the Professional Educators Association, can give us some insight.

5459 MR. ANDERSON: Thank you.

5460 Commissioner Cram, one of the big discussions when Paul Ski and I met several months ago and started to come up with the concepts -- and I must admit, as an educator, that I was naturally sceptical. So we met a couple of times and we discussed things, and things evolved, and suggestions that I have made did come as part of the presentation.

5461 We were talking about the symposium, where we could meet and discuss not only career prep ideas -- and certainly right now there is a whole aspect of accountability in education. What are we using this money for?

5462 As we all know, you can throw a lot of money into things and really get nothing back. The United States is grappling with that big time right now, and we are as well.

5463 How can we use thoughts and work to convince students that there is a market, that there is an entertainment world, that there is all of this recreation?

5464 Books like "Megatrends: Boom, Bust, Echo" talk about the older generation having the time and the money to go out and be entertained, to listen, to hear music -- to hear live music -- and there is no place for them to do that.

5465 The new generation is the one that will be able to do that. We need to support that.

5466 That is one aspect. There is the whole idea that careers in music are not just necessarily being a performer. There is also all of the business end of that, all of the carry-offs and spin-offs.

5467 I read a book that described about 300 careers related to the arts that students could do. They are not aware of that.

5468 So that is one of the main focuses to begin with, an awareness that there are opportunities.

5469 As a parent myself, my oldest son just graduated high school. He is going to go into music. He is at Kwantlen College. I am going under the assumption that he will have work. A lot of other parents aren't willing to take that gamble: "You have to take something secure; maybe not something you are going to be happy with; something you are not going to have a passion for, but it is going to make you money." We want to get past that.

5470 Working within the symposium itself, and the curriculum aspect, I have been fortunate to be involved in writing all of the curriculum for British Columbia, and the committees are meeting again next week. So we have a direct link with the Minister of Education, and they are very supportive of this: creating curriculum guides and videos, live performances by musicians, training in the classroom, whether it is a jazz festival or in the regular schools.

5471 COMMISSIONER CRAM: It sounds like you have a great relation with the Minister of Education, to the point of his signature on a cheque. Is that --

5472 MR. ANDERSON: Oh, no. I wish.

5473 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I want to go back to one thing you said, Mr. Roman; that the purpose of the symposium was to make people aware of the problem.

5474 MR. ROMAN: No. We are aware that there is a problem, but with regard to the symposium itself, that is to set the agenda to develop the administrative framework, to tell us how best the advisory council can work. Essentially, it is a gathering of the people who are aware of the problems with music education in Vancouver and in the province of B.C.

5475 Yes, I think there is going to be more, additional awareness building, but, generally speaking, that really is bringing life to this initiative -- m.PLAY -- putting it into practical terms of implementation, of making sure that we get our straw man budget right.

5476 We had to start somewhere. We created a pool of roughly $7 million. We broke it down as best we could, in consultation with the community, but the symposium really is the experts, the parents -- all stakeholders in music education for youth coming together and saying: This is how you are going to get the best bang for your bucks. This is how you can help the music system, the educational community, in Vancouver.

5477 We have high hopes for the symposium. I think we have devoted enough resources to make sure it produces results.

5478 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Maybe we should start with that: $41,000 in year 1 of the licence you will have this symposium. That will be the cost of it and, if I hear you -- and my initial idea was that you were only going to be working within Vancouver, but you are talking about British Columbia, parents, music educators -- all of the stakeholders within the system. Is that fair?

5479 MR. ROMAN: The focus is Vancouver, but it is a provincial educational system, for instance. But, really, it is no mistake that the focus is the greater Vancouver area.

5480 MR. SKI: If I could mention, too, Commissioner Cram, there may be people at the symposium who are assisting us who may be from outside the lower mainland, experts in any particular field. We are going to try to get the best of the best to assist us with this.

5481 COMMISSIONER CRAM: That was the next thing, because there is $24,000 allocated to symposium speakers.

5482 So then I need to know what the purpose of the symposium is if there are going to be speakers. I thought the stakeholders were going to get together and say: This is the problem, and this is how to fix it.

5483 What is the purpose of the speakers?

5484 MR. ROMAN: In preparation for the symposium we will have a steering committee, a number of the music community and educators who have volunteered to take leadership in the steering committee, which is going to do the grunt work for creating the symposium.


5485 They would include Dr. David Duke, head of the music department of Vancouver College; Wendy Newman of Arts, Starts and Schools, whose mandate is to attract professional musicians, visit, lecture and work with students in the public school system; and Allan Anderson, who is with us today as President of the B.C. Music Education Association.

5486 From that we see a board or a committee where the majority of members on the board would be formed from members of the music community.

5487 I think that Paul could provide greater clarity.

5488 MR. SKI: Commissioner Cram, also, this is for travel for some of these speakers. I know that there are some music educators who are doing very interesting things in other parts of Canada, some in the United States. Eric Favoro, for instance, in Cape Breton, is doing some different things in terms of music education, and we would like to have people who are doing different things, who can help us, as Duff said, to form m.PLAY maybe a bit better.

5489 If we had had a longer period of time, I think, to file our application, I am sure we would have even more in here, because as we rolled it out we got more and more different and interesting ideas.

5490 I attended the International Society of Music Educators' conference in Edmonton not too long ago and listened to many of the speakers there talking about new things that they were doing, and it was extremely exciting. I think we would like to avail ourselves of those people to help us.

5491 MR. DAVIES: Commissioner Cram, this is a problem that is not unique to Canada or to Vancouver. It is a world problem. There is a school system -- and I can't recall which particular one -- in Switzerland that studied for two years this particular issue. These people, obviously, are ahead of the game. And there are experts over there that we may want to consult.

5492 I think it is interesting that 60 Minutes this past week -- I don't know if any of you happened to see it, but there was a story on this particular issue in Venezuela, and it had a profound effect on the children of Venezuela.

5493 This is happening everywhere, and there are experts over and above being in this country.

5494 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you.

5495 I just need the structure. So there is a steering committee, which will do the grunt work to establish the symposium, and on the same side, the steering committee, or somebody from CHUM, will figure out the speakers, and within the first year $41,000 will be spent to have a symposium.

5496 The purpose of the symposium is --

5497 MR. ROMAN: Okay. We call it the seminal event. It is a gathering of music educators, professionals, parents, representatives, all working together to refine our operating mandate, to shape our policies and guidelines, and ultimately to determine the most effect use of the funding available for m.PLAY.

5498 We then lay out the administrative blueprint, the composition and role of the advisory committee, and the necessary oversight of CHUM through Smooth Jazz 94.5, the principal funding partner.

5499 The findings will be produced as a formal report to guide us in maximizing the funding activities of the m.PLAY initiative.

5500 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So refine, shape and set up the administration. Is it really to find out how you can effectively contribute to the CTD through this project?

5501 MR. ROMAN: To maximize our contribution to the CTD. We feel that it is already a CTD initiative, but we don't just want to throw money at it.

5502 That has sort of been the guiding principle here, because we have picked a different path, as you are well aware, with m.PLAY.

5503 It became very apparent early on that we are broadcasters, not educators. Certainly in the fieldwork that Paul, Ross and even myself and others have done -- Carl -- that became more and more clear. You are venturing into areas where there is real need, but don't try to impose your view of how that real need should be addressed. And we have taken that to heart.

5504 So that symposium idea really grew out of these discussions. If there is enough budget, which we think there is, elevate your sights so that it comes in at the highest possible professional level. That is all we are trying to do.

5505 It is too much money to simply say: That's it. We have thrown it into the pot. If it works, fine; if it doesn't, fine. There will be tracking. There will be oversight. There will be interaction with all of the stakeholders to ensure that, again, the maximum bang for the buck is realized.

5506 COMMISSIONER CRAM: What if these people -- eminent people in the field in Vancouver -- say: Don't put the money in equipment; put the money in mentoring?

5507 MR. ROMAN: I can't imagine that happening, but we are obviously going to be listening to them.

5508 That is a difficult question.

5509 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Or if they say: Don't put more money in advocacy, less money here --

5510 MR. ROMAN: Yes. I think that is what it is going to be more like. I can't see a component that would suggest: Don't do this component.

5511 I think, really, it is moving those funds around, and convincing us, as the funding partner, that this is the most effective way to go with it.

5512 MR. DAVIES: Commissioner Cram, we find that in year 2, the video that we produce, assuming that we are advised to produce it, may still live for the second year. So that money we have allocated can be redistributed to something else.

5513 Again, the symposium will guide us in that area.

5514 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So why are we going to go today through any of the rest of it when the symposium can say: No, we don't like this. We don't like this budget. We will change the moneys.

5515 How can we do an assessment of what is a proper CTD when this is subject to what the symposium --

5516 I think that you should be listening to the symposium, but how can we assess, today, the CTD?

5517 MR. WATERS: I think, Commissioner Cram, what is most important is that we are committed to spending the money as our Canadian talent initiative, and we have chosen this road to travel.

5518 If we are advised by the people, as Duff has said, who know the education system far better than we do, then we like to think that the funds we have put forward here can move fluidly through any one of the different areas.

5519 I think, through the consultation process that some of the people here have had with the educators, both in Calgary, as you know, and here in Vancouver, we have a pretty good idea of some of the areas where we can do the most good. There may be others that we haven't uncovered yet. I am sure there are. But I think that as long as we are prepared to move the funds within the guidelines of Canadian talent initiatives, our promise is there to spend the money. And I am sure -- no matter how we are advised by the people at the symposium, I think it will do a lot of good.

5520 COMMISSIONER CRAM: But isn't it our job to say that in advocacy you can spend this much of the budget you have set, but we don't think that this is a CTD?

5521 And if you are going to move the money, sort of, from one to another to another, wouldn't we have to have some say in that?

5522 MR. WATERS: Yes. I think what we would be prepared to do -- and we haven't really talked about this. We haven't, I guess, thought it through to your question today --

5523 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I have been up all night thinking about questions for you guys.

--- Laughter / Rires

5524 MR. WATERS: I think we would be quite prepared to file what came out of the symposium and say: This is where the money is going to go.

5525 I think that we understand your guidelines for what qualifies and what doesn't, so I think it is pretty safe to say that we would make sure the moneys, no matter which particular heading they fall under, would qualify as a Canadian talent initiative.

5526 I think we need a bit of leeway here, only because we are not exactly sure, as Duff has explained -- we can't tell you exactly where every nickel is going to go. We have a pretty good feel for the areas that need help, but where it all ends up, we can't get to that until we have the symposium, which obviously would require you approving this application first before we got there. So we have a bit of a --

5527 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So, clearly, if there were to be any amendments to this, to what you have talked about, they would have to be subject to our approval, wouldn't they?

5528 MR. DAVIES: We understand that. I guess our job here is to, hopefully, convince you that this is a CTD initiative.

5529 When we prepared for this hearing -- we go back a long way here, because we had experiences starting in London, where we were successful in receiving a licence from the Commission, and we put $1.2 million toward Fanshawe College there.

5530 Then we had --

5531 COMMISSIONER CRAM: The Bandshell.

5532 MR. DAVIES:  -- a slightly different experience in Barrie with The Bandshell.

5533 I know that Mr. Roman would love to talk with you sometime more about that, but this is not the place to talk about that.

5534 When the call came, Commissioner Cram, for Calgary and Vancouver, we took that experience in Barrie and we sat down and we said: Okay. We are getting a different message here from the Commission. We need to go back and rethink this.

5535 We explored all facets of the industry. We talked to the music industry. We talked to the record industry. When we came upon the idea of music education, this thing was roundly received by all facets of the industry.

5536 We are convinced that this is a CTD initiative, and it addresses, not unlike what FACTOR -- and Duff talked about this earlier -- where FACTOR gets it a bit farther down the road, this is at the origins of music in this country.

5537 So, yes, it is our job to convince you that it does qualify as a CTD initiative, and we have to listen and take your guidance on that.

5538 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So now, today, if we said -- or in any subsequent decision, if you got the licence -- if we said that advocacy --

5539 Because, you see, we still don't know what the videos are going to be about. We have a general idea from Mr. Anderson about where they would go --

5540 But if we say that is a valid CTD, and we say that the budgets for printing, packaging, art and video are valid CTDs, is the idea that that would give you the framework? And then we would go on to equipment and we would say: No, equipment isn't a valid CTD.

5541 I am just throwing that out.

5542 We give you the framework out of the subject matters, and then you would sort of plug in the numbers after the symposium. Is that the concept?


5543 MR. ROMAN: Not quite. I think I would like to go on the record as saying that what we filed are the broad strokes. From the aspect of the funding partner, from our consultation with the music community, generally speaking, these are the broad strokes.

5544 The symposium is to maximize each of these individual components, to show us a better way, a more effective way, to make sure that this money is well spent.

5545 And if the symposium produces recommendations and this report, which we would share with the CRTC, we would have to come forward and say: Here is what the symposium has also uncovered. Yes, then we would get back to you and say: We feel that it qualifies as CTD under your framework and guidelines, but we require your decision.

5546 It just seems to me that we have taken it to a certain point. We are also asking for, I think, buy-in from the Commission that m.PLAY, in its totality, represents an important CTD commitment.

5547 Now, our consultation tells us that you can't have ongoing success at FACTOR and you can't have success at raising musicians and artists at the next level through the Star Maker Fund without the feeder system.

5548 I don't know how to say it any other way.

5549 We know it at the jury level, with the quality of applications that come in, where FACTOR can't even fund artists because they can't accept the quality of the application.

5550 You are only as good as that pool of raw talent out there. And somehow we need people to buy into our vision. You can't simply field a sports team and say: Great. We will use whatever is out there and we will create a team that can play against the Blue Jays. It doesn't work that way. Somebody has to be doing the farm system. Somebody has to be into the schools at a certain level. Somebody has to be fertilizing the soil and making it grow.

5551 That is the concept. That is what we have been trying to get through on this.

5552 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I am trying to work on the structure and how we can deal with the structure.

5553 MR. DAVIES: Commissioner Cram, on advocacy -- and I don't want to lose this, because I hope we don't lose any component of m.PLAY, because we feel that strongly about it.

5554 But advocacy -- and I will go back to the pyramid. It was Allan Anderson who said the other night that parents are not putting their kids in music programs any more because there are no instruments in schools. There are less parents putting their children into these music programs now because they don't think they are of any value. There is nothing there.

5555 So advocacy, hopefully, will educate the parents out there in that one component of it, to get their kids back into these programs, to get an interest in music, and hopefully to start a career.

5556 Again, it is about building the base of that pyramid up. Advocacy is critical to this program.

5557 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you.

5558 So after we have gotten the symposium and we have provided the report, you will then have an advisory board whose role will be to review and make recommendations. Does that again mean that the money can shift from one facet to another?

5559 What other things could they recommend? Maybe efficacy. I don't know.

5560 MR. ROMAN: I think there is a big role in terms of making each component efficient, and I wouldn't underestimate it in terms of the advisory committee.

5561 But I think that if it is a living and growing initiative, because the industry we are serving -- the arts we are serving -- music is living and growing -- I think there has to be that kind of fluidity.

5562 But as professional broadcasters we know that it has to live within the framework of acceptable CTD initiatives.

5563 There is a governing principle involved here, and that is your framework for CTD initiatives.

5564 MR. SKI: Commissioner Cram, if I could make one other comment in that regard, we received a letter from Elizabeth Miller -- she is the Elementary Chair for the Vancouver schools Music Teachers Association. When we talk about how the funds are being used, for instance, she says in her letter: The intercity schools of East Vancouver are particularly needy because of the lower income levels.

5565 So that is what we are talking about when we are saying: Where should the funds go now? Should the funds go into these particular schools, or those schools? She has identified something, and I think the symposium will help us in that regard.

5566 She goes on to say a couple of other things, such as: The equipment money needs, as we see them, are all band instruments; repaired instruments, some of which are often currently being done in a rather non-professional manner by teachers and volunteers; workshops for teachers and students presented by professional musicians; performance opportunities; mentoring by professional musicians; funding to attend professional performances; larger more acoustically correct performance venues; music festivals; festival fees; and money is the biggest factor.

5567 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you. On advocacy, I understand the necessity of educating parents. I look at this and, given the lack of precision of what this material will be, at worst this could be seen as a CHUM promotion; an advertisement in the schools.

5568 How can you make me see the sunny side of life?

5569 MR. WATERS: It is not our intention to get any self-promotion in the schools.

5570 I know that from my own experience, with my daughters at their school, where they have corporate people trying to get in all the time.

5571 That has never been and is not our intention with this initiative. Our intention is to help the schools and the children with music education, and hopefully, in the long term, that will benefit the Canadian broadcast system.

5572 We will take our name right off -- in fact, our name isn't on the project. m.PLAY doesn't include CHUM anywhere, and we are not concerned about that.

5573 Our only concern is in helping the schools and the children, and the Canadian broadcast system at large. That is our intention, Commissioner Cram; it is not to get any self-promotion.

5574 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you. On the equipment, the concept -- and I didn't understand it before, Mr. Roman. Do I understand that the idea would be that somebody -- something -- would purchase the actual instruments and then sort of give them out as if they were being lent to children? Or would you just make a deal with a St. John's music company that you would pay the lease payments? How is that going to work?

5575 MR. ROMAN: Again, we are going to do whatever is the most effective way of getting instruments into the hands of kids: leasing, purchasing --

5576 Carl LeGrice has some insights on that, because he was at the heart of putting this together.

5577 MR. LeGRICE: The budget figures you have in front of you are based on an average rental of an instrument of approximately $20 per month, for a ten-month term for each year, and with those budget figures, we took as a starting point 1,500 students per year who would be affected by that budget figure.

5578 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I rented a flute and it was $21 two years ago, per month.

5579 The idea would be that anybody could go anywhere in Vancouver and rent an instrument, and it would be covered? Or would they go to one particular retailer?

5580 MR. LeGRICE: That is precisely the kind of thing that we would ask the symposium; how best to distribute funding like this. We don't want to be arbitrary. We want to do it based on need. And they are best qualified to determine what that need is and where that need is.

5581 MR. ROMAN: Commissioner Cram, really, again, having Allan Anderson here in his position and not having him address some of the issues you are raising would be very short-sighted on our part.

5582 Allan: the shortage of instruments; how the boards work; how it all dovetails with regard to getting them finally into the hands of students.

5583 MR. ANDERSON: Just as an example, as I am sure many of you are aware, CARAS has put out $10,000 a year for the last three years now, and it announced at the Junos that this was awarded to a school, usually an intercity school.

5584 It was a school in Delta two years ago. Last year, in Vancouver, I think it was Templeton High School. This year they took a slightly different approach in terms of creating advocacy in --

--- Background noise / Bruit de fond

5585 MR. ANDERSON: I feel quite at home. I feel like I am at a gymnasium here.

5586 THE CHAIRPERSON: I sincerely apologize.

5587 MR. ANDERSON: It was very nice of you to set this up this way.

5588 COMMISSIONER CRAM: It makes you feel right at home.

5589 MR. ANDERSON: Yes, exactly. Schools.

5590 The grant this year -- we sat down with a group called the Coalition for Music Education, which is made up of parents and industry people, as well as music teachers, and we came up with the criteria for the grant.

5591 We set this criteria out. You had to be a member of the coalition, as well as a music educator. You had to prove what the need was in your school. You had to come up with examples of how your administration and parents were supporting that music program, and how this money, once again, could support goals that you already have in place.

5592 We gave them three days' notice on e-mail. We had 39 applications, some of them ten pages long. It was just phenomenal. From the whole province.

5593 But it would also make you cry to hear about the 50-year old instruments or 60-year old instruments. Or they have 50 kids in an elementary band and they have a beat-up bass drum, and that is all they own.

5594 Those are the kinds of things that we want to look at, definitely on a needs basis.

5595 We are not going to say: Somebody from the west end of Vancouver, who has lots of money to do anything they want, can feel like renting an instrument, and that's okay. That's not what it is about.

5596 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So while CARAS gives the money, who administers the handing out of the instruments?

5597 MR. ANDERSON: In this case it was strictly a $10,000 grant, and that would go to the school and it would be up to the music teacher, in conjunction with the administrator -- and the parent group is very critical in this aspect of it. They would choose how to spend the money.

5598 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So why do you need $5,000 --

--- Background noise / Bruit de fond

5599 MR. ROMAN: I think I heard the question. It was about our administration fee of $5,000?

5600 I don't think that $5,000 in this day and age is a great deal of money. I think that having 1,500 participating students, spread out across various school boards, all participating in the m.PLAY instrument loan program, would require in fact someone to oversee and to interact.

5601 If the boards can do it themselves, fine. We will take that $5,000 --

5602 The short answer would be: We would put the $5,000 in some other part of the component.

5603 But our feeling is that over seven years, as I mentioned before, there are 10,500 student years of instrument use involved here. That is a large number of participants. We wanted to make sure, because it was a specific CTD initiative and not something that someone should do part-time from our promotion department, that there was budget set aside.

5604 But, essentially, if the boards can do it themselves, if we are sure that it is going to get into the right hands, that it is going to work as it should, then we will simply move that. We are not stuck on that amount of money, that there has to be an administrator, but it made sense to us because of the sheer logistics of all of those individual instruments, young people, all of those people participating in the program. It seemed to require some kind of co-ordination that should be recognized.

5605 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Mr. Roman, if you are leasing them, the owner would do that, wouldn't they? Wouldn't they care about where their instrument was and whether it was cared for?

5606 MR. ROMAN: I think you have to round up the leasing companies. I think, probably, we would ultimately make sure that those payments are made.

5607 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I mean, you are going to pay.

5608 MR. ROMAN: Yes. But, as I said, we could move it to another component. We just felt that --

5609 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And wouldn't the advisory committee be able to at least get involved in --

5610 Because you have levels of administration here that are one upon another upon another. Surely there have to be either volunteers from Mr. Anderson and his group -- and he is shaking his head up and down, in an affirmative action. There have to be members on your advisory committee. And if you are not going to own the instruments, surely the owners of the instruments are going to be worried about them also, wouldn't you say?

5611 MR. ROMAN: Someone has to co-ordinate all of that activity. I can't understand how we wouldn't have somebody that ultimately would be responsible to tell us that the program is working, and the individual equipment --

5612 You know what I am saying. I am just saying that for that amount of money, I think we need to have somebody who can pull it together. Just the logistics of that many instruments seems to require some kind of co-ordination.

5613 MR. ANDERSON: Commissioner Cram, perhaps I could add to that.

5614 Definitely, as a provincial PSA, we are definitely a service organization. We don't get paid to do -- I don't get paid to do this job. But there are times when I don't have any weekends left. I have to have time during the week, and that means that we need a TOC, and that is $160 a day, just to give you an example. That would be a concrete example that some costs may come out of.

5615 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I hear you, yes.

5616 On the workshops, $47,000 a year, six a year: $30,000 for the workshop; $12,000 for the venue; and again $5,000 for the co-ordinator. I tell you, every time I see that I feel like I am being nickelled and dimed.

5617 What are these about?

5618 MR. ROMAN: Once again, these are co-ordination fees. If we have a full-time co-ordinator --

--- Background noise / Bruit de fond

5619 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I think these people next door are going to ignite themselves even further --

5620 THE CHAIRPERSON: And then maybe ignite us.

5621 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yes. So, Madam Chair --

5622 THE CHAIRPERSON: Let's break until 11:30. They are going for lunch. Let's be in our chairs and ready to go, and then we will just power through, and we will take one hour for lunch, and then kind of go from there. I think we are going to have to try to work around this.

--- Upon recessing at 1115 / Suspension à 1115

--- Upon resuming at 1132 / Reprise à 1132

5623 THE CHAIRPERSON: I want to say that I know we had previously announced that we would conclude around 5:30, but, given the timing issues, I want to let everyone know that we will take the time we need today to fully explore all of the applications. So we will sit as long as we need to, and we will take a one-hour break, from one to two.

5624 I gather that our neighbours are off from 11:30 a.m. to 1:00 p.m., and they are going to discuss at lunch how they might perhaps defuse the passion, or not ignite with such passion.

5625 Commissioner Cram...

5626 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you. I am ignited, and I will be moving a bit faster, just with quicker questions.

5627 MR. WATERS: Commissioner Cram, if I might -- and I hate to interrupt, but we are kind of getting the feeling that maybe we need to help the Commission a bit more with the m.PLAY initiative.

5628 Just through your questioning -- and I totally respect the fact that you are digging deep here. That is a good thing. It gives us an opportunity to try to better explain the initiative to you.

5629 But I think that one of the areas that appears to be a problem is, if we do start to move funds around, might we move them into an area that might not qualify, as far as the Commission is concerned, as a Canadian talent initiative.

5630 We had a bit of a discussion about that. If I might ask Mark Lewis to speak to that and maybe try to set something up with the Commission that would help in that regard.

5631 Mark, if you wouldn't mind...

5632 MR. LEWIS: Thank you.

5633 Commissioner Cram, as you may know, CHUM is now in the 16th year of its support of VideoFact, for the production of videos; we are in the 10th year of Arts FACT here in Vancouver; and the 6th year of Bravo! FACT. Now, each of these organizations is juried or has a group of directors who have been brought in from the respective segments of the entertainment industry to disburse funds.

5634 This model that we have with m.PLAY is not unlike these groups. Over the past 16 years CHUM has disbursed upwards of probably $20 million to the Canadian entertainment industry for the production of music videos, recorded material and other material, and we have had great success in this area.

5635 This m.PLAY is also built upon that success and our experience working with those sorts of groups.

5636 So the assurance that I think we can give you today, first of all, is that we would envision approval of the CTD framework in this application. In other words, if the Commission were to disallow any elements in the application for CTD expenditures, the moneys would be moved into the approved segments. So, in total, $7 million would be disbursed over seven years.

5637 However, I think, as a second element of a comfort zone, we would submit on an annual basis to the Commission full disclosure of how the moneys are being spent within the respective CTD-approved elements.

5638 Thirdly, if in fact -- and we have had a great deal of discussion with the educators already. This proposal today is one that comes out of discussions with the same players who will essentially be involved in these symposiums, but in fact, over the seven-year period, if there were for some reason an area that was not covered in this proposal as a CTD expenditure that they urged us to make, we would certainly come back to the Commission, in advance of reallocating any moneys, to assure ourselves and the Commission that that was a valid CTD expenditure.

5639 But, in total, over seven years $7 million will be spent.

5640 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you, Mr. Lewis.

5641 On the tickets for concerts, isn't this something CHUM would normally do anyway?

5642 One hundred and sixty tickets times six a year to school kids --

5643 MR. WATERS: Yes. Radio stations certainly give away concert tickets. There is no question about that.

5644 What we would do with these is purchase them and make sure they are distributed to the students.

5645 I think you might have heard Allan Anderson mention that it is a great education for the students to actually see these people performing the music, seeing what it is like to expose your art to an audience.

5646 The tickets would definitely be funnelled to the students. It would have nothing to do with on-air activity of any kind.

5647 COMMISSIONER CRAM: But in all likelihood, it would be a concert that you would be sponsoring, or co-sponsoring, or bringing, because it would be -- or it wouldn't be. It would not have any relationship to any concert that you would co-sponsor, or that you would buy tickets to sell on-air, the same as you would give to school children.

5648 MR. DAVIES: There could be a classical performer coming in. That would just make sense from a music education point of view. Again, it has nothing to do with being associated with the radio station.

5649 MR. SKI: Also, it could be big band. It could be various other genres. It could be classical. It could be whatever.

5650 I think that is what may come out of -- again, going back to the symposium -- or come out of our dialogue with the music educators, that there may be particular performances of particular artists or particular groups that would be advantageous for a particular school, depending on what they may be studying at any particular time.

5651 MR. LeGRICE: Commissioner Cram, if I might, because of my background in promotions, when we normally purchase tickets to a concert, we use that as an audience-building tool. This is entirely different. It is directed toward the students.

5652 One of the music teachers that we spoke to saw particular value in this for his jazz band, because most of the artists in that genre tend to appear in night clubs where minors are not permitted.

5653 So if you have a headliner coming to town, this would be a great incentive for kids to go and see them.

5654 COMMISSIONER CRAM: But, Mr. LeGrice, that is my whole point. You would probably, if it were jazz and you were a jazz station, either bring in the performer or co-sponsor it.

5655 MR. LeGRICE: In those situations, if we purchased tickets, we would normally use them as an audience-building tool, not necessarily to this end.

5656 COMMISSIONER CRAM: On the mentoring, could you tell me why you would have to pay the judges; why they couldn't be volunteers of the community or the B.C. music association?

5657 MR. LeGRICE: For the mentoring, those costs are basically honorariums. We do something very similar with Arts FACT, the other initiative we have for QM, where an honorarium of $150 is given to them, just to compensate them for their time. It is not necessarily meant to pay them for their services.

5658 COMMISSIONER CRAM: The school competition, with an expert panel -- again, are the particulars dependent upon the symposium and the advisory boards?

5659 MR. ROMAN: I'm sorry, the question again was?

5660 COMMISSIONER CRAM: The school competition, the whole venue -- and I think that is part of the concert, isn't it?

5661 There is school competition venue, competition production, competition prizes, competition staff. Do I understand that the particulars of that would be the organization?

5662 They are the bottom four items on Schedule 4, page 5 of 6.

5663 MR. LeGRICE: Commissioner Cram, we see this as an annual event, where schools could come together to basically show off their talents and showcase their talents. We are looking at doing this at a venue outside the school -- hence the cost for that -- to make sure we have the best sound available and an audience capacity. There are prizes built into that that would go back to the music departments of the schools.

5664 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Mr. LeGrice, the question was that the particulars, as to how it would be organized, et cetera, would be decided by the advisory committee?

5665 MR. LeGRICE: The advisory committee would certainly turn to ask how we would qualify these people, but we see it as an annual event; that there would be competitions at a local level that would culminate in an annual event.

5666 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you.

5667 Cancon: There was no mention of it in your application. On smooth jazz, subcategory 34, or category 3, the Cancon minimum is 10 per cent.

5668 At page 4 of your presentation today you said that Smooth Jazz 94.5 is committing to airing 35 per cent Canadian content. Can you explain the 35 per cent?

5669 MR. DAVIES: Commissioner Cram, if I may, as we have found with a few other applicants, there was confusion about the change in the roles and the category changes. I think we, too, were affected by that.

5670 If I could take you through the sequence of events, I think that might explain everything.

5671 Number one, the call for applications was issued on March 24, 2000.

5672 Two, Public Notice 2000-14 was issued at the end of January and proposed new classifications for music. At that time, the classifications governing smooth jazz were not in force. Accordingly, the application forms available when we filed our application did not reflect the new music categories.

5673 Third, the filing date for applications was May 19. At that time, CHUM, in accordance with the existing radio regulations, filed for a category 2 radio service and was subject to 35 per cent Canadian content.

5674 It was our intention at that time, and it is still our intention, to play 35 per cent Canadian music, without differentiation as between pop and jazz selections.

5675 Four, over a month after filing our application the new music criteria came into force on June 21.

5676 On July 24 the Commission, by way of a deficiency letter, invited us to clarify our intention regarding jazz music, specifically our commitment to subcategory 34.

5677 In accordance with the Commission's request, on August 21 we filed a revised subsection 7.6 "Station Format" section, confirming that the station would be operated as a category 3 service, and that CHUM was prepared to accept a condition of licence to that effect.

5678 The revised form provided by the Commission, which was attached to the deficiency letter, did not specify any content level.

5679 Since it was not our intention to alter in any manner the underlying assumptions of the application, the Canadian content level remained unchanged at 35 per cent.

5680 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I asked for an explanation of the 35 per cent. Is it a blended 35 per cent? Which means, of the 66 per cent subcategory 34, plus whatever category 2 you will be airing, is it 35 per cent?

5681 MR. SKI: It is 35 per cent in both categories, if I understood the question correctly.

5682 We will be playing 35 per cent category 34, and 35 per cent category 2.

5683 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Of any other category, because if I understand --

5684 MR. SKI: Of any other category.

5685 COMMISSIONER CRAM: -- Mr. Roman's letter, you may be into easy listening, et cetera. Is that correct?

5686 MR. SKI: That's correct, yes.

5687 COMMISSIONER CRAM: It is your assertion that this is not a change from your original application.

5688 MR. DAVIES: Absolutely not. That is what was intended from the outset.

5689 COMMISSIONER CRAM: What about the distribution of Cancon?

5690 MR. SKI: Even distribution.

5691 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Throughout the broadcast day, or throughout the 24-hour day?

5692 MR. SKI: Throughout the broadcast day.

5693 COMMISSIONER CRAM: On your financial projections -- and I am not going to spend the time I spent yesterday on financial projections, Mr. Dorn -- you said that there was a 5 per cent preference for smooth jazz, but an unfilled P1 potential of 46 per cent. Could you explain that?


5694 MR. DORN: I can, and I think you will be hanging on my every word, because I used to be a math teacher and I know how important it is to --

5695 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Good. I feel better already.

--- Laughter / Rires

5696 MR. DORN: We look, in a study like this -- and all of the applicants have come forth with studies similar to this. They are all done, essentially, the same way, where we look at a broad-stroke view of the market, and what we are trying to do is identify a "What if" situation. If a radio station like this dropped in, how well would it work, how big would the audience be, and how successful could it be.

5697 Over years and years of doing this we have come up with a formula that looks for not would people listen, because that is almost meaningless to success; it is how often would they listen and how emotional would they get about it. Would it be their favourite kind of radio station.

5698 We are looking for two things: Could a reasonable group of people listen to it, and is there anybody else doing it.

5699 Every time we do one of these studies we hope that there is a big unfilled. That is what you look for. Twenty-five per cent or 30 per cent unfilled, and you start to drool.

5700 In this case, we are at 46 per cent unfilled. Forty-six per cent of the people who would like smooth jazz, who could favour this radio format in Vancouver, based on gender, ethnicity and age break-outs of this market, say that there is no station like that, and that is a huge opportunity. Rarely do you see something like that in radio these days.

5701 COMMISSIONER CRAM: You, I think, only filed your results -- and we have heard quite extensively about the appeal of this genre to multicultural groups. I didn't see anything in your research, although, Lord forbid, I could actually understand it.

5702 Did you do any work on that?

5703 MR. DORN: Maybe it would help if I took a one-minute primer on what you can and cannot get out of a study like this, and how we think of this.

5704 There are three basic components to doing a research study of this sort. One is, who do you ask. Two is, what do you ask. Three is, what do you do with the results. How do you interpret it and apply it to a real world situation.

5705 We all pretty much agree on step one; that is, you ask the market, as it is defined by Statistics Canada, BBM and so on, which is, again, gender, age and ethnicity. And that is what we did. In this case, this market breaks out to be about 30 per cent that would fall into a minority category, the largest being Chinese at 15, the Southeast Asians at 7 or 8, and so on with smaller groups.

5706 That is how we poll our sample, and that is how we do a study like that.

5707 Again, we all pretty much agree on that.

5708 What we don't agree on so much is what do you ask them, and in your case, your question, what do we do with that information.

5709 I have done over 400 of these radio audience research studies in Canada, and in fact 40 on focus groups and music testing and cross-sectional studies in Vancouver alone, including one last week. We have come to the conclusion that you cannot get reliable ethnic information on studies like this. You just can't. The numbers don't hold up.

5710 I heard some of the numbers thrown around this week. You are talking about sample sizes of 40 and 60 people. If 25 per cent of a group says, "I would definitely do this. I would listen there", or whatever, that number could really be 10, or it could be 40, and we would not want to project on that.

5711 As a result, we don't break it out. We look at what does the market tell us, because that is where the success will come from.

5712 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you. Now to the frequently asked frequency questions, Commissioner Pennefather.

5713 That was from yesterday.

5714 As you know, other applicants wish to use frequency 94.9 in Vancouver. One is CBC, with la Châine culturelle. You have not proposed any alternate frequencies. Have you done any further engineering studies to find alternate frequencies that could be used for either yourselves or CBC?

5715 MR. WATERS: Yes, we have.

5716 May I?


5718 MR. WATERS: I have prepared something, if I might just read it.

5719 CHUM has explored a number of alternatives in respect of the use of the remaining frequencies by the CBC. We have an innovative recommendation which has not been discussed yet.

5720 In the course of this hearing you have asked applicants whether they have explored the use of alternative FM or AM frequencies.

5721 The Vancouver market is the number one market in Canada for talk-formatted stations operating on the AM band. AM radio still has a very large and loyal following in Vancouver. In fact, over 26 per cent of all radio tuning in this market is to talk-formatted AM stations, including the CBC's Radio One English-language service.

5722 The current SRC la Première châine service on 97.7 is a talk-oriented service which broadcasts in monoral.

5723 In view of the disproportionately small audience size for CBUF relative to the mainstream English-language music-based radio proposals before the Commission, CHUM believes it would be in the public interest for the monoral SRC talk-oriented service to utilize an AM frequency, and thereby relocate the new French-language la Châine culturelle stereo service to the existing 97.7 frequency.

5724 Clearly, the demonstrated success of CBC's Radio One CBU-AM in this market indicates that CBUF operating on AM would provide good service to its audience.

5725 Doug Allen and Associates prepared two reports for CHUM, which we will be pleased to provide the Commission. There are at least three AM frequencies which would provide a good level of service to the current 18,000 listeners of the existing CBUF service. Those AM frequencies are: 1200, 1610 and 1630.

5726 Mr. Allen has confirmed that the 1200 frequency, which was formerly used by CKDA Victoria, could be made to operate from CHUM's existing CFUN site and has provided us with an estimate for the cost of additional towers.

5727 CHUM proposes the following innovative solution to the frequency problem. We are prepared, at our expense, to provide transmission towers to SRC at the CFUN site to permit the transfer of la Première châine service to AM, thereby freeing 97.7 for use by SRC's stereo network.

5728 We believe that this would be the best use of scarce frequencies, and thereby open the way for licensing additional local FM services. This proposal, we believe, is in the public interest.

5729 The Commission has also heard from the other applicants regarding alternative FM frequencies which could be utilized by SRC. This, too, is summarized in Mr. Allen's report.

5730 Given the small historical audience and relatively small number of hours of tuning to the existing SRC service in Vancouver, the talk-oriented service could be moved to one of the alternative FM frequencies, such as 88.1.

5731 Last, we understand that Mr. Allen will be appearing at this hearing and he will be able to answer any additional questions which you may have regarding the frequency allocation.

5732 I believe that he might be here this afternoon.

5733 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you. Could you file those two reports?

5734 MR. WATERS: Certainly.

5735 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you.

5736 Why do you think that CHUM should be given this frequency rather than CBC or any of the other applicants?

5737 MR. WATERS: Commissioner Cram, I suppose being 10th or 11th on the list you get to hear the questions that you have asked the other applicants, so I have prepared something.

5738 There has been a great deal of discussion over the past few days about local ownership, the location of head offices, and the size of companies. But, really, none of that matters to the most important people in all of this: the listeners. More often than not they don't know who owns the station, and they don't care. The listener only knows whether he or she likes what comes out of the box.

5739 It is our responsibility as broadcasters to give the listeners what they want. At CHUM, our strategy to achieve that goal is simple. We ask them. We do this through ongoing research in all of our markets.

5740 We don't conduct these major research projects only when we are applying for a new licence; we do them all the time. It is our way of asking our listeners: How are we doing? Are we giving you what you want? It is our report card.

5741 CHUM's success in radio across Canada is proof that our strategy works.

5742 The people of Vancouver have told us that they want a smooth jazz radio station, and that is what CHUM will give them; a compelling, creative, local smooth jazz station.

5743 We are proud of CHUM's record of community service in Vancouver through such initiatives as Arts FACT, the Arts Foundation to Assist Canadian Talent, and the continuing support of Arts Umbrella, a performance and visual art school.

5744 Finally, we feel that our innovative Canadian talent initiative, m.PLAY, will not only benefit music education in the Vancouver community, but will bring long-term benefits to the Canadian broadcast system.

5745 Carl LeGrice, whom you have met today, is one of the creators of m.PLAY. I thought I would share with you his vision for m.PLAY, which says it better than anything I have heard:

"Music is a language. Genres are only dialect. m.PLAY is designed to help young artists discover and explore that language. It is not just about jazz; it is about connecting young minds to one of the world's most powerful forms of expression; about learning to articulate the universal language of music.

If m.PLAY encourages an artist to create great jazz, we will play it. If it moves them to write an opera, sing the blues, or start a rock-and-roll band, we will applaud them. Even if it only serves to broaden a child's appreciation of music as an artform, to recognize its complexities and possibilities, then m.PLAY will have succeeded."

5746 Madam Chair and Members of the Commission, for these reasons we respectfully ask for your approval of this application.


5747 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you, gentlemen, ladies.

5748 Madam Chair...

5749 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Commissioner Cram.

5750 I believe that Commissioner Cardozo has a question.

5751 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I have two very quick, specific questions.

5752 On the advocacy portion of m.PLAY, who would write the material?

5753 I see what you are going to do in terms of producing the video and so forth, but who would actually prepare the message?

5754 MR. ROMAN: Again, we would be working under the guidance of our symposium, and we would hire third party people.

5755 In other words, that advocacy message would have to reflect the collective view of the advisory committee with regard to what it is we are advocating.

5756 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So it is a community-based message, as opposed to a CHUM-based message.

5757 MR. ROMAN: That is correct. CHUM would probably not appear -- in fact, it wouldn't appear in that message.

5758 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And if you didn't fully agree with the message -- I just want to get this on the record -- would you still go ahead with it?

5759 MR. ROMAN: Our advisory board is a consultative body, but we would be outnumbered on that advisory board. I wish to assure you that once we are hands off -- we have to have good judgment in assembling people and creating a mandate, but after that it is their decision.

5760 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Secondly -- and a yes or no answer would work fine -- on the point, Mr. Waters, you just mentioned in terms of the frequency answer to Commissioner Cram, is the offer, in terms of housing the frequency within your tower, contingent on you getting 94.5? Or is that an offer that would exist --

5761 MR. WATERS: You can stop right there.

5762 It is a yes if our application is approved. We would do it. If it is not approved, we would not.

5763 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: All right. Thank you.

5764 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Commissioner Cardozo.

5765 I have been asking several of the applicants --

5766 How do I pose this?

5767 I recognize and acknowledge the service that all of the broadcasters provide. Radio is a local medium, and I think it can be safely said that all of the broadcasters operating here offer a good local service. I just want to make sure -- and I know this has come up --

5768 My questions in this area are really to do with corporate activities and corporate presence in the community, above and beyond what you might be doing with respect to Canadian talent development commitments, or other regulatory obligations, and in addition to what you might be doing with respect to on-air sponsorship or promotion.

5769 My question is: As a corporation -- CHUM Limited, CHUM Radio, whatever it might be -- you operate one very profitable FM station in this market. You have been successful, clearly. What you are doing resonates with listeners.

5770 Maybe I shouldn't even limit it to this market. How do you view yourselves as a corporation in terms of your charitable activities, your community activities that are not related to specific regulatory obligations or CTD commitments?

5771 MR. WATERS: Madam Chair, I think I might have touched on this a bit earlier, but we believe that when you entrust us with these radio licences, that is a wonderful opportunity for us as broadcasters.

5772 I think the phrase I have heard mentioned many times inside CHUM, whether it be radio or television, is that our community activities, such as the ones we have mentioned here this morning, like Arts FACT and Arts Umbrella -- we feel that is our way of giving back something to the communities in which we operate. We feel that that is very important.

5773 We also entrust our management in all of the different cities in which we operate, both radio and television -- they are the people who live in those communities, and they operate their stations on a daily basis, and we feel that they know best what we can do above and beyond what we are required to do in order to better serve those communities.

5774 Some of the greatest things we do inside CHUM are not things that we have ever spoken to the Commission about in these hearings. We have some wonderful creative people inside CHUM, as do all of the other broadcasters who have appeared before you this week. They have some terrific ideas.

5775 Carl, who is sitting behind me today, kind of started us on the road to m.PLAY.

5776 We not only feel responsible to do those kinds of things; we love doing them. It gives us a great sense of satisfaction to take care of 200,000 children at Christmastime in Toronto, or to help under-privileged children attend classes in different schools here in Vancouver. It is just a good feeling and it is something that we enjoy doing. It is something that kind of goes without saying, I guess.

5777 THE CHAIRPERSON: This has to do very much with part of the local ownership piece, which is not so much the ability to serve the local community, but particularly here, where we have the second-largest English Canadian market in the country, frankly, most of the local ownership has gone. We don't have very many independents, very many small owners. And it is not just in radio.

5778 I think that it is a concern to many of us in different parts of the country. I don't want to make this a parochial argument. These are things that I think are important from an overall perspective.

5779 So really what I was talking about -- if I may be so blunt -- is cash. Do you have a corporate donation policy within your corporation? And when you talk about the flexibility given to local management, do you look, for instance, and say: We have had several very good years in this corporation and, in particular, this market has been really profitable, and we have an obligation above and beyond regulatory obligations or on-air promotions or in-kind things to really support it?

5780 Because, in fact, not all local companies do it, but there is --

5781 I really want to make sure you understand that this is not about one broadcaster or another. It is not even about broadcasting per se, but to what extent, particularly when you are using public property and doing well, and this is a good thing -- and a good healthy radio station is a good thing, but how do we make this all work in a way that is good for the country?

5782 And the benefits aren't just a lot of the things that we call CTD. They are something more than that.

5783 That is really what I was getting at. I don't want to have a lengthy philosophical discussion about it. As much as anything, it is to be mindful of these things. These are things that I think are on the minds of a lot of us, and I would rather have these discussions here and now, than be not talking about them at hearings.

5784 I don't think that it is necessarily a criterion, but it is a really important piece of ownership to me.

5785 MR. WATERS: Madam Chair, I am not very good at these philosophical discussions. That is more along the lines of Moses Znaimer and people like that, who are better at this, but let me say this to you. It was a few years ago when I actually was fortunate enough to be put in charge of the radio division.

5786 I am not sure if I am going in the right place here, but I will try.

5787 THE CHAIRPERSON: Maybe what I should do is say: Do you have a corporate donation policy in your company?

5788 Do you have specific goals in that respect?

5789 MR. WATERS: We have the CHUM Charitable Foundation, which distributes money -- a lot of money -- all year long. Whether we have a specific amount of money that we give to charities every year -- I believe that it is a significant amount of money, but I can't tell you what that number is. I am afraid that is not something that I oversee.

5790 What I was going to say to you was that when I took on this position -- and it is kind of a funny thing, and I am sure that some of the other larger companies in the room might appreciate this.

5791 Sometimes the people in our different markets, our different managers, think that there is a tree growing in Toronto with this enormous amount of money on it, and if things are failing in their market, they can just call on Toronto and they will -- I think the expression was: Back the truck up to the door and dump money in.

5792 I thought that was really a bad perception, which was somewhat throughout the company -- or in some places.

5793 I think we want to make all of our managers responsible in their own situations for profitability.

5794 But, to get to your question, if we are, then we like to think that we will put more money back into the markets in which we operate.

5795 If we run a good business -- and we do -- and we are profitable -- which we are all hopeful that we are -- then we can put money back into the community, whether it be through charitable donations or more funding of organizations like Arts FACT and Arts Umbrella in Vancouver, and that is what we will do.

5796 I have always believed that CHUM, beginning with my father, has been a very generous company that way. He is a very generous man, and I think we all like to operate by that same principle.

5797 I am not embarrassed in the least about how CHUM operates in that way. I guess that is --

5798 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

5799 If it leads to -- and, again, I don't want to be too philosophical, but I think the merits of what you are proposing with respect to m.PLAY -- who could argue with the merits of supporting kids in school in music education, especially in these times?

5800 Really, what kind of got me there is: We have been hearing, some of us who deal a lot with some of the smaller market operators, that in fact their donations to FACTOR are not particularly helpful in their markets. They have been saying: We need feeder systems. If we are not developing the young talent in the communities we serve, and that is what we want to be doing, then it isn't going to matter for FACTOR, or the FACTOR artists are going to come from Toronto only, and maybe a few from Vancouver.

5801 This is an issue that I think is important.

5802 But what is more important to me when I look at this is that I say: Isn't this something that a broadcaster, a corporation that is profitable and is doing well and is in the business of music and is using public property to build their business and is going to need that talent, should, to a certain extent, be doing anyway?

5803 Are these not the kinds of initiatives that tie in with your business, that tie in with business development?

5804 Again, I don't want to get too specific about this: Would you do m.PLAY -- not with this particular application. It is just more in an overall sense.

5805 A lot of the broadcasters are doing very well, and they are doing very well --

5806 This is not, as I say, a bad thing, but it is --

5807 MR. WATERS: You have certainly given me something to think about by positioning it that way.

5808 I think you have heard comments about where the initiative came from. I suppose that when it gets right down to it, it is maybe the most important thing.

5809 I think that some of the Commissioners said it to us at the hearing in Calgary -- and I think it might have been Commissioner Cram -- that we really don't have anything to judge you by any longer than what you will do for Canadian talent. You can move your format at will.

5810 So we tried -- and I think that Duff has expressed this -- to think outside the box a bit to come up with something that is different, which goes at the Canadian content problem in a different way.

5811 We are quite proud of what we have come up with.

5812 I suppose you make a good point. Maybe it is something that you could do totally --

5813 It is not something we had come up with before. I guess that is the best way of saying it. Maybe if we had it might have been somewhere where we could have been funnelling more funds.

5814 But, now that you have positioned it that way, maybe it gives us something to think about.

5815 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks. I didn't want to get --

5816 It was really just something that I --

5817 It has been very revealing, sitting and hearing all of the proposals, and I wonder if we haven't created a system sometimes in which everything is CTD and everybody tries to do this and this, and we lose sight of the overall picture, which is a bit bigger. That's all.

5818 I thank you very much.

5819 MR. WATERS: It is kind of unfortunate sometimes that some of the things that I think do go on, that are great things that broadcasters do, they don't get exposed in these kinds of fora. There are things that we do, and we are happy to do them, but they don't get on the record sometimes here.

5820 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and maybe we don't have enough of these any more, what with not having hearings for renewals or whatever.

5821 MR. WATERS: It has been awhile for us, for sure. These last two hearings have been -- we had not been to a hearing for quite some time prior to that.

5822 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

5823 Counsel...


5824 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you, Madam Chair.

5825 Good afternoon. Briefly, the offer on 1200 AM for CBC for la Première châine, is that on the condition that you obtain 94.5 only, or if you obtain a licence?

5826 MR. WATERS: We would sure like to have the licence. There is no question about that.

5827 Everything that we have prepared in our submission to the CRTC is based on being on 94.5, and there are some situations that are created on some of those other frequencies where the coverage isn't quite as good, so it might well affect our business plan. But, I suppose, it always gets right down to the fact that we would love to have another FM licence in Vancouver.

5828 Yes, we would.

--- Laughter / Rires

5829 MR. WATERS: I was waiting for you to turn your red light off, but you didn't.

5830 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you, Mr. Waters.

5831 Depending on the work involved in the 1200 offer to CBC, how much do you expect --

5832 I notice that Mr. Allen is not here, but how much would you expect that would cost your company?

5833 MR. WATERS: I did speak to Mr. Allen the other evening about this, and we don't know exactly how many towers it would take. We thought that if it took two towers it would be around $200,000. We think there is a possibility that we might be able to do it with the addition of one, but it might take two.

5834 I think the critical thing sometimes is just getting the real estate to put the towers on. We have that real estate and we would be prepared to construct the towers and the other technical things that go along with that at our expense. But we figure somewhere between $100,000 and $200,000.

5835 MR. RHÉAUME: And after that, how much would you estimate operating costs would be? I assume they would not be part of your offer, but rather, after that, operating costs would be borne by the CBC.

5836 MR. WATERS: Yes.

5837 MR. RHÉAUME: Do you have any idea of how much the operating costs of that 1200 AM would be?

5838 MR. WATERS: I wish I was more of a technical wizard, but I'm not.

5839 MR. RHÉAUME: I'm not either.

5840 MR. WATERS: I would be happy to speak to Mr. Allen about that and maybe submit something to you, but I don't know that number, I'm sorry.

5841 Paul...?

5842 MR. SKI: I might be able to estimate that. It might be in the vicinity of $50,000 a year, possibly. Again, it depends on when tubes fail and the type of transmitter they have. There are a lot of variables that go into the engineering or technical end of it.

5843 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you.

5844 Canadian content, category 3: I believe you said 35 per cent?

5845 MR. WATERS: Yes, sir.

5846 MR. RHÉAUME: By condition of licence?

5847 MR. WATERS: Yes, sir.

5848 MR. RHÉAUME: That would be, I assume, regardless of any vocal-to-instrumental ratio. Is that correct?

5849 MR. WATERS: Yes, sir.

5850 MR. RHÉAUME: And for the category 2 music, we would rely on the radio regulations.

5851 MR. WATERS: Yes, sir.

5852 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you.

5853 Thank you, Madam Chair.

5854 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, counsel.

5855 Thank you, gentlemen and ladies.

--- Pause / Pause

5856 MS VOGEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

5857 Next on our agenda is an application by Mainstream Broadcasting Corporation for a broadcasting licence to carry on an ethnic FM radio programming undertaking at Vancouver. The new station would operate on frequency 94.5 megahertz, with an effective radiated power of 46,000 watts.

5858 The applicant is proposing a Worldbeat and International specialty format, with at least 75 per cent of the music drawn from subcategory 33, which Worldbeat and International.

5859 Please go ahead whenever you are ready.


5860 MR. HO: Good afternoon, Madam Chair, Commissioners.

5861 Welcome to Vancouver Lower Mainland. This is the home of Mainstream Broadcasting.

5862 We know the market we serve. We are here today within publication for a very unique licence, a concept whose time has arrived.

5863 Let me introduce to you our panel.

5864 I am James Ho, President and CEO of Mainstream Broadcasting. In 1993 the Commission approved the acquisition of Mainstream Broadcasting and a change to ethnic format for AM 1320, our stand-alone operation.

5865 On my left is Mr. Timothy Jim. He is the Chief Operating Officer. Timothy has more than 26 years in the radio and television broadcasting industry. He was controller for news and current affairs at Fairchild Television before joining us in October of 1999 in his present position as COO.

5866 To my right is Mr. Edward Ylanen. Ed began his broadcast career in 1987 as CJVB under the guidance of founder and pioneer ethnic broadcaster Jan Van Brucken. After CJVB was acquired by Fairchild Radio, he became Vice-President of Operations and General Manager of International Programs. Ed was instrumental in the company's successful application for a Vancouver ethnic FM licence in partnership with the O.K. Radio Group, as well as other successful applications in Calgary and Toronto.

5867 Mr. Ylanen is now Vice-President of Operations at CHMB Mainstream Broadcasting AM 1320. Mr. Ylanen is second generation Finnish Canadian, born in Vancouver, and has been a resident of British Columbia for 37 years.

5868 Next to Mr. Ylanen is Mr. John Iacobucci. He is a special advisor on sales and marketing.

5869 Mr. John Iacobucci is one of the broadcast industry's most successful sales management executives with over 30 years of experience, having established Canadian sales records. John is second generation Italian and was born and raised in Vancouver.

5870 Next to Mr. Iacobucci is Ms Paulette MacQuarrie. She is a freelance writer and broadcaster. Paulette has been cohost and coproducer of the Ukrainian radio program Nash Holos on CJVB since 1990 and now hosts and produces the program on CHMB. She has served the Ukrainian community in Vancouver as Vice-President for Ukrainian-Canadian Congress, B.C. Provincial Council and the Ukrainian Community Society in Richmond.

5871 On the second row, starting on my left, is Mr. Henry Fetigan. He is a special advisor. Henry is a member of the Advisory Board of our AM station. He recently retired after a distinguished career in banking, spending 44 years, a great deal of which was in Asia.

5872 He brings many years of local and international community service experience and is active in Rotary International, Canadian Club, Hong Kong Canada Business Associations, and the Vancouver Crime Prevention Society.

5873 Next to Mr. Henry Fetigan is Mr. George Feng, Vice-President of Corporate Development. George has over a quarter of a century of experience in ethnic media, beginning in 1974 with CJVB as Sales Manager of the Overseas Chinese Voice radio program. He was prominent in our successful bid for an ethnic AM station, AM 1320, and currently is the department head of Corporate Affairs.

5874 George is a Canadian citizen and has been a resident of Vancouver for over 26 years.

5875 Next to George is Mr. Gregory Kane, who is our legal counsel.

5876 Sitting next to Mr. Gregory Kane is Mr. Phillip Moy, who is the Director, Secretary and Chief Financial Officer of Mainstream Broadcasting. He received a chartered accountancy designation from the International Accounting and Consulting Firm Deloitte & Touche.

5877 Phillip is second generation Chinese-Canadian, who was born and raised in Vancouver.

5878 Next to Mr. Phillip Moy is Mr. Keith Perron. He is the international and world music specialist. Mr. Keith Perron worked as an announcer and producer with the English Language Service of Radio Canada International from 1991 to 1992, and from 1993 to 1996 in Havana for Cuba's external broadcasting service, Radio Havana Cuba, as host and producer of the English language program "To Africa and the Caribbean".

5879 He has also worked for a variety of private stations in Montreal. Most recently he was the Jazz and World Music expert for the Virgin Entertainment Group.

5880 In the third row, starting from my left, is Mr. Grant McCormick. He is our technical consultant. He is with HN Telecom and has several decades serving Canadian broadcasters with his engineering expertise.

5881 Next to Grant is Ms Margot Briggs and Gregg Meiklejohn, marketing consultants. Margot and Gregg are principals with Meiklejohn Management, a research company with extensive experience relative to the radio industry, including a successful bid for Victoria's licence applicant 107.3 FM.

5882 Margot is a third generation Canadian of Icelandic descent, and Gregg is a third generation Canadian of Swedish descent.

5883 Good afternoon, Madam, Chair and Commissioners.

5884 Canada is unique in the world because we offer our citizens a cultural mosaic where all ethnics and cultural identities are respected and acknowledged. As the Commission itself has recognized, Vancouver is perhaps the most ethnically diverse city in Canada and, as stated by the Governor in Council, its growing multicultural, multiracial and multilingual population exemplifies the need to encourage the production of Canadian programming that reflects its cultural diversity.

5885 Mainstream Broadcasting is proud to apply for an ethnic licence which will serve Vancouver in two very special ways. First, we will serve a community with over 700,000 people of different ethnic heritages, of which some 70 per cent receive no meaningful multicultural programming.

5886 Second, we will offer ethnic and cross-cultural programming for second and third generation Canadians. This new format will serve to restore lost cultural roots, while listeners of all cultural backgrounds become better acquainted with those of their neighbours, friends and colleagues.

5887 With this station we will add diversity to the Canadian broadcasting system, as well as to Vancouver's airwaves.

5888 Our new music format is inclusive, fresh and reflects a more contemporary view of our community and will present an effective advertising venue for businesses which have struggled to reach this underserved market.


5889 MS MacQUARRIE: Vancouver's varied and growing ethnic communities are bringing about a social and cultural transformation unprecedented in recent memory. The need for cross-cultural understanding and mutual respect has never been greater.

5890 With three radio stations the Chinese-Canadian community, which represents 30 per cent of the multicultural community, is being well served. However, the remaining 70 per cent is not. Our station will offer programming which reflects their multicultural reality, music in their language from their country, along with music from the countries of their friends, neighbours and colleagues.

5891 It will do more than just entertain. Through the universal language of music listeners of all backgrounds will instinctively come to understand why their ethnic cultures and those of their neighbours are valuable, how we are all important in creating this Canadian mosaic, how we inter-relate.

5892 In a rapidly shrinking world Canadian society must continue to encourage our cultural mosaic and allow ethnic communities the opportunities to express themselves culturally as our society evolves. Our station offers a perfect opportunity to do that.

5893 MR. YLANEN: Since its beginning in the 1960s, multicultural radio programming has been serving the immigrant communities with third language programming slotted hour by hour. Segmenting of the audience is effective for immigrants still struggling with English, but it creates a language barrier for a larger segment of the population which is fluent in English and would otherwise enjoy the music and information of different ethnic cultures as well as their own.

5894 Our view of Canadian multicultural communities includes all ethnic groups and paves the way for a more contemporary approach to ethnic broadcasting.

5895 We would like to share with you our vision of a radio station which combines the spoken word in English with foreign language World Music, creating Vancouver's, and in fact Canada's, first World Music station.

--- Video presentation / Présentation vidéo

5896 MR. PERRON: As you have seen and heard, our format is very inclusive. Our target audience is local, energetic and culturally diverse. The spoken word component in our programming will be a combination of third language, bilingual and English. In our international and European popular World Music programs English will be used to position or explain a song or artist so that the second and third generation Canadians can understand and appreciate the language, the music and the message.

5897 Our format reflects a variety of different ethnic groups: for example, European, Latin American, African, Asian and others who are currently unable to find today's music from around the world anywhere on the radio dial in Vancouver.

5898 MR. IACOBUCCI: In 1993 Mainstream Broadcasting received approval from the CRTC to provide Vancouver's multicultural community with an ethnic AM radio station. Since then the company has proven itself a responsible local broadcaster to this community and now enjoys solid relationships within both mainstream and ethnic markets.

5899 We have had great success in reaching out to our community with this local stand-alone AM station, which is well suited to the traditional multicultural format of mostly talk and information. Music, however, is best served on FM frequencies. As a local broadcaster with the extensive knowledge and experience in the multicultural market, we are ready to grow with the market.

5900 Clearly there is a wide demand for the ethnic programming we are proposing. An extensive study completed by Meiklejohn Marketing Management demonstrated significant interest in World Music. Over 75 per cent of a statistically valid sample expressed interest in the World Music format, and over 75 per cent expressed an interest in listening to a new world music station.

5901 This study was reinforced by the fact that over 1,500 people submitted letters of support to the CRTC for this FM application. These letters represent a variety of communities: Greek, Italian, Portuguese, Indian, Latin American, Filipino, Ukrainian, just to name a few.

5902 It would be impossible to service all these communities using our current method of segmented third language programming, particularly the European groups. These together comprise a sizable segment of our community but have been steadily losing radio representation in recent years.

5903 The European segment of our format combines the music of these groups to reflect the cultural mix of today's society. This will create a block of listeners who can enjoy music from their own cultural background, as well as others, and businesses will finally have an ethnic audience that stays tuned long enough to hear their message.

5904 If approved, our FM station will have a minimal impact on other licensees, either conventional or multicultural. It will in fact complement the existing services. There will be no fragmentation within the existing market. Our station will offer more diversity and music variety for those listeners who usually flip the dial or listen to their own CDs, and it will create a solid listening audience for new advertising sources.

5905 We will look to local advertisers who will want to reach this new broad-based audience interested in their products and services.

5906 MR. YLANEN: Our station will offer an unprecedented opportunity, not only for advertisers and listeners but also for producers and promoters of music not widely programmed by other stations. Mainstream Broadcasting has made a commitment to the development of Canadian talent based on a realistic projection of the costs expected.

5907 One of the ways of doing this is in the funding of an annual talent festival that will encourage and ultimately lead to the broadcasting of contemporary ethnic music produced right here in our own neighbourhoods.

5908 These local community events where this music is featured are overwhelmingly popular. Mainstream Broadcasting will support more of these events, and our FM radio station will provide talented ethnic artists a venue to promote their music outside their own communities. This will encourage more artistic creativity within local ethnic communities while allowing us to far exceed the Commission's minimum Canadian content requirements.

5909 Our proposal is conservative but practical and designed to sustain a realistic rate of growth. The demand has been demonstrated, and excitement will grow steadily as these communities become convinced they now have a real opportunity to participate more fully in Canada's broadcast industry.

5910 MR. HO: In closing, we are undergoing a rapid cultural evolution and Canada's broadcasting industry must keep pace. Vancouver will become even more ethnically diverse in years to come, and we have an opportunity to prepare for this eventuality and truly honour the Canadian mosaic.

5911 By blending the music of Canadian and international artists from around the world, the walls traditionally dividing multicultural programs, their respective audiences and their communities will come down. The result will be a stronger community and ultimately a stronger, more diverse broadcast industry.

5912 By its very nature, our FM station will promote cross-cultural understanding. It moves beyond old stereotypes and offers a cultural bridge within and between multicultural communities and the whole community.

5913 We live in this community. We know the community and its marvellous ethnic diversity.

5914 Our application provides for a reflection of this diversity and represents the optimum use of the 94.5 FM frequency.

5915 For those of us representing Vancouver's ethnic community and Mainstream Broadcasting, thank you for your time. We are ready to answer any questions the Commission might have.

5916 Thank you.

5917 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Ho.

5918 I will be asking the questions tody. I think what we will do, given that it is ten to one, is I will just ask one question of clarification on your oral presentation, following which we will take the lunch break and come back at 2 o'clock.

5919 If I don't ask the question now, I may not remember it later.

5920 On page 6 of your oral presentation where you talk about encouraging "more artistic creativity within local ethnic communities while allowing us to far exceed the Commission's minimum Canadian content requirement", what content requirement are you referring to?

5921 MR. HO: I will let Mr. Ed Ylanen address this issue.

5922 MR. YLANEN: Thanks, James.

5923 We are talking about the Canadian ethnic broadcast policy and the 7 per cent Canadian content requirement.

5924 THE CHAIRPERSON: Is this with respect to music or overall programming?

5925 MR. YLANEN: It is the music component.

5926 THE CHAIRPERSON: So that is what you are referring to. I thought I should clarify that.

5927 We might as well break for lunch. I don't think there is much point in getting started.

5928 Thank you.

--- Upon recessing at 1250 / Suspension à 1250

--- Upon resuming at 1400 / Reprise à 1400

5929 THE CHAIRPERSON: We will continue.

5930 I will be asking the questions today. We don't have any questions on your CTD commitments, but we will be questioning you in the area of ethnic broadcasting policy, programming, marketing, some of your finances and of course technical, as we have with all of the applicants.

5931 As you presented your application, I think there is no question that it would bring diversity to the market. As you know, we have a lot of competitive applications here for what is a very scare resource here in the Vancouver area. What I want to do is to make sure we both understand each other with respect to the ethic policy.

5932 In the area of local content the new ethnic broadcasting policy sets out that in addition to establishing the required number of distinct groups to be served, the Commission will also weigh the ability of ethnic stations to provide appropriate amounts of quality programming to these groups.

5933 The Commission also expects the primary responsibility of over-the-air ethnic radio and television stations should be to serve and reflect their local community and that ethnic broadcasters at the time of licensing and renewal should provide their plans on how they will reflect local issues and concerns during the terms of their licences, as well as to indicate in their plans how they will subsequently evaluate their progress.

5934 In Schedule 5, Section 7.5(b), you agreed with the Commission that a primary responsibility of over-the-air ethnic radio and television stations should be just that: to serve and reflect their local community.

5935 For instance, you will employ a community events team that will visit local ethnocultural and mainstream events, promoting cross-cultural understanding and creating a spirit of goodwill.

5936 Can you tell me what else you will do to ensure that the local community is reflected in your station's programming and in particular appropriate amounts of quality programming that are offered to your targeting groups.

5937 Could you offer us examples of the type of quality programming to be broadcast.

5938 MR. YLANEN: Yes. Our entire concept, the reason for this application, is because we are an ethnic broadcaster. Our AM station is an ethnic broadcaster, and we collectively have, as you have heard earlier, various and wonderful and different ethnicities. It is our only reason for being in broadcasting, to serve and reflect our local communities.

5939 As ethnic broadcasters who don't speak for those communities, they don't have a voice. Our listeners and the community at large -- and I know the Commission is aware of it, so I won't get into a long and drawn out story about it.

5940 The communities here are underserved. They are demanding more service. We will in every way imaginable work to satisfy their demands, their wishes, their needs.

5941 Our programming is innovative and contemporary. I have a strong background in ethnic radio. You heard in the intros that I worked and learned from them and really got my start in the business from one of the pioneer broadcasters in this country, Jan Van Brucken. He is one of the fathers who really helped to lay the path for Canada's ethnic broadcast policies going back before 1985.

5942 He taught me the importance of serving our communities.

5943 What has happened over the past few years has been, for various reasons, a competition among the existing licensees, among the broadcasters, for the Chinese market, the Chinese advertisers, Chinese listeners. Unfortunately, it has had an adverse effect and impact upon other communities, other communities who not so long ago had a lot more service.

5944 Our plan is to restore the levels of service to the communities who have been adversely affected and include all communities in our programming.

5945 You see our international program schedule. Technically, by definition, it does not fit the category of an ethnic show, because it does not say to a specific ethnic community. That is because it is to all ethnic communities, and we no longer have that definition available to us to use. So 40 per cent of our programming technically is not to all ethnic communities.

5946 THE CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry, what definition is not available to you to use?

5947 MR. YLANEN: In the old broadcast policy an ethnic program could target a mainstream audience. It would be a cross-cultural program that would promote greater cultural respect and understanding of the ethnic communities with an English-language program playing the music of different cultures. There was no restriction. You could not say it was for everybody. Now the definition says an ethnic program is one which can be done in any language provided it is to a specific ethnocultural group.

5948 THE CHAIRPERSON: I think what we might want to do is clarify that later on.

5949 MR. YLANEN: Sure.

5950 THE CHAIRPERSON: Certainly I have been at the Commission for three years, and that is not my understanding. In fact, I think we had introduced more flexibility to do cross-cultural programming in English in this new policy than we had previously.

5951 I am trying to understand what is not available to you that was previously available to you as an ethnic broadcaster.

5952 MR. YLANEN: We lost one word, and that was effectively mainstream.

5953 In 1985 -- and I don't have the 1985 policy with me here right now -- I remember those days with Jan Van Brucken, and his idea was to promote cross-cultural and respect and understanding not just among the ethnic communities but among all communities; that we could come to understand one another a lot better than we do.

5954 It was perhaps an oversight in the system. I was not there when they rewrote the policy. Now the definition to the letter says it needs to be to a specific ethnocultural group, and we want to invite everyone to join us, as ethnic broadcasters.

5955 MR. HO: Excuse me. Let me just add to the points here.

5956 Going back to the question as to how we are going to get the community more involved, I think one of the key components of our being involved in these situations will be in participating in different community events. This is where a lot of this music is happening. We hear it when we go to these events.

5957 There is traditional folk music, but there is also another generation who plays very modern music. They are only limiting themselves to their own community.

5958 When we go to their community, we hear all this music and we like it. We ask why they are not bringing it out, why are they not out there somewhere else. They say because nobody else appreciates it.

5959 This is one way for us to target our audiences, as well as getting involved with different communities. We will participate in their events and bring them out as well.

5960 THE CHAIRPERSON: That is how you intend to provide the quality programming to the groups?

5961 MR. HO: It is going to be a two-way street, yes.

5962 THE CHAIRPERSON: In the area of local content, the new ethnic broadcasting policy states that the Commission will expect licensees to report on the manner in which they will reflect local issues and concerns during their term of licence, as well as on any plans on how they will subsequently evaluate their progress.

5963 I am wondering how you will meet that expectation.

5964 MR. YLANEN: At the time of renewal we are asked certain questions in our deficiencies and through the process, and we reply to those questions in a manner that states what we have done in the past as well as what we propose to do. So at the time of licence renewal.

5965 And throughout the year we work with our communities very closely. So every effort is made to monitor, record, track what services we provide the communities. When we have the opportunity to tell the world how proud we are of the achievements we have made, we do that at licence renewal.

5966 THE CHAIRPERSON: You will just be monitoring the communities as you program to them and reporting on that at licence renewal time.

5967 MR. HO: Not only during the licence renewal. I think whenever there is an important event that is going to be happening, or when we observe an important event, I think it is also important for us to not only let the public and the community know, but also we would like to inform our local CRTC office and let them know the changes.

5968 I think it is important that we keep up with the information, keep pace with the changing community as well.


5970 Can you tell me who will determine the local issues and concerns that will be reflected in your programming? Will it be the program director or will you be relying on individual ethnic program contributors?

5971 MR. YLANEN: Again, it is a two-way street. The program manager ultimately has the call for the on-air product, but the communities themselves, as I am sure you are well aware, have become very eloquent in the fashion in which they present their issues.

5972 As community leaders they see our announcers as leaders in their communities. They are very welcome, and in many cases they do take the opportunity to talk to our producers, our announcers, and say this is what is going on in our community. Can you get this across on your airwaves, please. And we work towards that.

5973 It is with the co-operation and the directive of the station management.

5974 THE CHAIRPERSON: Will you be having program contributors then?

5975 I take it your program contributors will be through a consultation process with the community.

5976 MR. HO: Well, it will be, like I say, both. It will be a two-way street. We want to take information from the community, and they will be approaching us. The other thing is we want to be proactive. We want to go to the communities as well.

5977 It is not like we are there waiting for them to come to us in order to make us successful. I always believe in involving the community and in going to them. There are a lot of things happening in their own community, but very few of us ever get to know what is happening unless we go to them.

5978 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

5979 I want to ask some questions about your programming, particularly the ethnic and third language regulations.

5980 In the area of third language programming you are proposing a minimum weekly level of 29 per cent, which falls below the regulatory weekly minimum of 50 per cent. In fact, most ethnic stations in this country generally broadcast third language programming in excess of 80 per cent, including your own AM station.

5981 Maybe you could elaborate on that a bit for me. I know we have seen part of it in the presentation, but in asking for an exception to the policy.

5982 MR. YLANEN: The format that we propose is new right across the board. We have heard a lot of talk about importing the U.S. jazz format to Canada. Through our ethnic broadcast policy and our definitions of music programming, this is a Canadian format. It is not going to be brought in from anywhere. We are a local broadcaster with local issues.

5983 We recognize the opportunity here to take what has been a pretty -- I don't want to use the word stereotype but a very traditional ethnic programming format across Canada and take it to the next level.

5984 There has been a wonderful foundation laid by broadcasters who are members, and those who are not, of the CAEB. As perhaps the next generation of ethic broadcaster, as a group we speak largely the English language when we are communicating with our neighbours over the fence in this marketplace.

5985 The ethnicities of our communities are vast. I understand there are over 100 identifiable ethnocultural groups here. If we were to try to slice up our program schedule to serve everybody's needs in their languages, the pie would again become very small.

5986 The proposal that we put forward will work because of the strength in the overall numbers of the communities. There will be third language programming. It will be contemporary in nature, and it will be in the third languages to those communities who have been adversely affected over the past few years, who have had their programming reduced for whatever reasons. They have just unfortunately seen their programming reduced.

5987 We want to restore the level of service, and we have done it in a way that is complimentary to any existing services.

5988 As in previous decisions that the Commission has made, it is not a duplication of service; it is a complement to service.


5989 THE CHAIRPERSON: Is it perhaps the case that an ethnic station meeting the requirements of the policy -- let me rephrase that.

5990 Is it perhaps the fact that there is not enough demand in the market for another station that is meeting the requirements of the ethnic policy with respect to third language programming in its entirety?

5991 MR. HO: Are you talking about the marketing side of the program --

5992 THE CHAIRPERSON: No. In our discussions with respect to the ethnic broadcasting policy -- you talked earlier about the amount of programming that was being done to Chinese audiences, the amount that is available now in the city in third language programming.

5993 Is it possible that there is not room in the market, there is not sufficient demand for another ethnic radio station that meets the requirements of the policy as we have set it up, the CRTC's ethnic broadcasting policy; in other words, meeting the minimum requirements of third language programming.

5994 MR. HO: As far as our programming is concerned, all of our programming is actually very ethnically geared towards --

5995 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Ho, sorry. This is not a question specific to details of your application, but from our discussion of what it is you are proposing to do and the existence of three other ethnic stations in the market, is it possible that the market cannot absorb a fourth ethnic radio station that meets the ethnic policy requirements with respect to both third language and ethnic programming as our policy exists today?

5996 MR. YLANEN: I think the phrase is in the traditional format.

5997 THE CHAIRPERSON: Adhering to our current policy and regulations.

5998 MR. YLANEN: Sure. There is significant demand in the market for additional ethnic programming, as I think the Commission knows.

5999 The difficulty comes in the way in which we can service the marketplace in the most effective fashion if we are going to be fortunate enough to put forward another ethnic service.

6000 The fact is that approximately 70 per cent of Vancouver's ethnocultural populace has little or no real meaningful service. There is service available, but often the programs are very short in duration and sometimes can be moved around on a program schedule at very short notice.

6001 There is considerable demand for additional programming for additional ethnic service.

6002 To do it with a third language full 50 per cent criteria, if that is what Madam Commissioner is getting to, could be very difficult in that it becomes less inclusive for us. We fall back into the old pigeon-holing or segregating type format, where everybody slices up the program schedule to get an hour, two hours.

6003 This way the strength comes in numbers, and through the strength in the numbers everyone gets service and we can really make a go of this. I know it can work.

6004 The language of our station really is music which, as you have heard from other presenters, is the international language.

6005 MR. HO: I also would like to add that the other situation we are facing right now is if we are going to serve the 70 per cent ethnic community that does not have enough time right now. Statistically speaking, each of these communities is small. For us to service them, the hour would not be long enough, and you would be segregating and pigeon-holing them and thus economically speaking it would be very difficult to survive.

6006 However, if we combine them, they are large enough in our community as a combination. The spoken words when we do it in English, each one of them will have more understanding of the program. In that situation where we are talking about combining all of them together, a new innovative type of ethnic radio, this is the format we do see that is going to work for us in the future.

6007 THE CHAIRPERSON: Maybe we should have this discussion in two pieces, if I may, to make sure we are both talking about the same thing at the same time.

6008 Let's put your proposal as it stands over here for a minute. If there was a station, can the Vancouver market support a fourth ethnic radio station? Is there sufficient demand in the market for a fourth ethnic radio station which meets the Commission's policies and regulations with respect to the ethnic broadcasting policy?

6009 MR. HO: The answer to this really is no. It would be very difficult for this ethnic radio station to survive with the current policy as it is, meaning the traditional way of doing it.

6010 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. The policy is actually only a year old. It is quite a new policy that we have. So traditional is also concurrent.

6011 As I was reading through your application, one of the things that struck me is that the Commission has an ethnic policy. It is designed very specifically to deliver third language programming to Canadians who have an appetite for that kind of programming.

6012 As you know, in order to make it economically feasible to do that, we have had a lower Canadian content regulation; we provide a lot more flexibility in areas that we would otherwise have higher requirements.

6013 That is the kind of tradeoff that we make in order to ensure that we can provide a broad range of service to a number of different ethnic communities. That is why we have an ethnic broadcasting policy.

6014 So this is why it is a struggle to, you know -- and then we have non-speciality format broadcasting. So there is really quite a range of options available to a broadcaster with certain ideas.

6015 So that is really kind of what the struggle has been, to understand how to make this fit.

6016 MR. YLANEN: Commissioner Grauer, our program schedule is designed in a way to help the Commission find a way to make this work. We want to work with you and work with our communities.

6017 As such, there is the opportunity, if we go now away from format and into category, as I think was requested at a previous hearing, we could talk about Category 3, Subcategory 33, which is a format and a specialty format.

6018 I think the solution here may be -- and we leave it to the Commission's decision -- to go with a Category 3, subcategory 33 specialty licence. But we will keep our 29 per cent third language commitment. In fact, we will keep the program schedule the way we propose in our application.

6019 THE CHAIRPERSON: Do I take it, then, that you are amending your application here to be not for ethnic but to be for 33 specialty format?

6020 Mr. YLANEN: No. We believe all along that our application is ethnic, but it also fits the criteria of being a specialty Category 3, subcategory 33 format. It does fit the World Music format and it does fit the ethnic format if the condition of licence request for a 29 per cent third language commitment is kept.

6021 If that is not, in the Commission's view, the approach to take, we still are a specialty licence and we continue.


6022 THE CHAIRPERSON: Why don't we continue with my questions and then get back to this perhaps a little later on. I think perhaps counsel might want to clarify some of those with you.

6023 Perhaps you could tell me the difference between the proposed popular World Music directed to Europeans and the mass appeal type of non-ethnic international music programming.

6024 What is different and what is the same?

6025 MR. YLANEN: I guess it was part of an earlier answer. It comes down to the definition as per the policy.

6026 The policy requirement for a program to be considered ethnic means that it needs to be directed to a specific ethnocultural group; i.e., the Europeans. The international program -- which we put forward not as an ethnic show, because it is not to a specific group but to all communities; that is the difference -- will play in the European component music directed to the people here who are of European origins, whether it be first, second or third generation.

6027 The spoken word will be in English. The music will be sung in the languages by performers of the nations of Europe, and of course Canadian ethnic talent as well.

6028 MR. HO: Madam Chair, let me say that the international music that we have proposed in front of you will be basically music from South America, Asia, Caribbean, Mediterranean, music of Europe, Scandinavia, Africa, Pacific, Celtic and Middle East. That will be the international music that we are talking about. We will be targeting all those communities there.

6029 Whereas the European popular world music, as we were saying in our deficiency letter, you will be concentrating largely on the European community.

6030 THE CHAIRPERSON: In your first description of the international music, you identified Europe as being part of that. So it will just be a subset?

6031 MR. HO: It will be a very minimal subset, the music that we will be playing during the international music hours.

6032 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

6033 Can you identify for me the target demographic for your international non-ethnic music programming?

6034 MR. YLANEN: The target demographic will be second and third generation, as well as first generation ethnic Canadians. If we get down to the specifics of our research, 18 to 49 in age.

6035 THE CHAIRPERSON: So that would include -- sorry.

6036 MR. HO: Could I also ask our research people, Meiklejohn Management Consulting, to address this issue too?


6038 MR. MEIKLEJOHN: Thank you, Madam Chair.

6039 We had interviewed over 1,400 respondents within Greater Vancouver with an ethnic sample that settled in at 710. So we have a decent sample to work from.

6040 We sampled primarily 18 to 49 as a demographic. Within our study we found significant interest in the format and an interest in listening to this kind of format if it was in fact on the radio.

6041 THE CHAIRPERSON: I looked at your study, and it did not occur to me until now that this would be helpful. And it may be in there.

6042 Did you ask them to describe themselves? You know, were they a second or third generation ethnic Canadian, being someone who was not of English, French or aboriginal descent?

6043 Was that something that you asked?

6044 MR. MEIKLEJOHN: Yes, we did.

6045 THE CHAIRPERSON: How many of your sample described themselves as that?

6046 MR. MEIKLEJOHN: As second or third generation Canadian?

6047 THE CHAIRPERSON: No. Second or third generation ethnic descent.

6048 MR. MEIKLEJOHN: I understand; thank you.

6049 THE CHAIRPERSON: That were not of English or French or aboriginal.

6050 MR. MEIKLEJOHN: Out of our initial sample of 1,400, 710 indicated they were of ethnic descent, and approximately two-thirds of that group indicated that they were born in Canada.

6051 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

6052 MR. MEIKLEJOHN: You are welcome.

6053 THE CHAIRPERSON: During your international music programming periods, what role will spoken word programming play?

6054 MR. YLANEN: The spoken word, as we are largely a music format, would introduce the song of course, but go a little bit further than introducing a song. It would explain something of the song, something of the quality of it, the performer, where they are from, maybe a little bit of history about why that song is what it is.

6055 As such, we can generate a better understanding of each other's cultures through the music.

6056 MR. HO: Let me just add to that as well.

6057 We will also provide community information in between the sound. For instance, we will be presenting in a very relaxed way of bringing naturally into the conversation of what is happening in different communities and what is interesting, so that the public is aware when they are listening to our program.

6058 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

6059 I just want to go back to third language. There is a question here that I forgot.

6060 With respect to your third language programming, you have said that you are going to program it in evenings and on weekends when the audiences of third language programs have found it more convenient to tune in to their favourite shows.

6061 Do you have some studies or what evidence do you have that would support that statement?

6062 MR. YLANEN: This one comes down to experience.

6063 With ten years in ethnic radio working for Jan Van Brucken, as I suggested previously, and now here with James, many of our target listeners as representative of the entire populace at large -- because the ethnic populace really is half of the populace at large in this market -- work during the day. They are at school doing what we as professionals do, day in and day out.

6064 So at home on the weekend and in the evenings they have an opportunity to tune in their programs and find out what is going on in their own communities. This is the formula that does work with Canada' ethnic policy, the traditional layout that the CAEB in general in the past have established. The weekends are the times that are the most popular and most effective for third language programming.

6065 During the day, if you can go with English and draw enough of a crossover audience, it can work over.

6066 THE CHAIRPERSON: With your experience with an ethnic radio station, the drop periods are not popular for third language programming; that 10:00 to 12:00 at night would be the most desirable time for these ethnic communities?

6067 MR. HO: We are talking about two separate situations.

6068 One scenario is our current situation on the AM side, with the population being Chinese and South Asian. We are talking about the Chinese population at this time is large enough to have a continuous program to service them in the morning, evening, driving home, driving to work, et cetera. The population is large enough.

6069 If we are talking about the rest of the 70 per cent of the population, that is also a very important reflection of this community. The population is not large enough individually for us to serve them as a program having an hour that is long enough during the day that is meaningful.

6070 In other words, if we have to serve them -- if we are talking of a population of 5,000, 10,000 people, their listening period is probably very limited economically for us to be able to serve them.

6071 THE CHAIRPERSON: I understand that. What I was trying to clarify is whether -- your supplementary brief certainly says that you have found that ethnic groups have found it more convenient to tune in at these hours.

6072 I was interested to know if your experience had showed you that the drive times were less attractive for some reason.

6073 I certainly understand the economic argument. Thanks.

6074 Can you give us some examples of the type of Canadian musical selections that will broadcast during your international programming periods?

6075 I want to know if you have established an overall Canadian content level during these periods.

6076 MR. PERRON: When it comes to World Music, the Canadian content aspect of it still is very new. This is a thriving music genre that has really blossomed in the past ten years. So for Canadian content, there are a number of artists out there.

6077 It is through this type of outlet that they would get the recognition that they really deserve.

6078 I will give you an example. There is a Guyanan guitarist who is based here in Vancouver, by the name of Alfa YaYa Diallo. He won a Juno in 1999 for the best global album. He also received a grant from Heritage Canada and the Canada Council to produce the album.

6079 There are a number of other artists out there who are waiting to get discovered. Through this kind of radio station and our proposed format, because we will be out there in the community, we will be able to bring them to the forefront and get them the recognition that they definitely deserve.

6080 THE CHAIRPERSON: I certainly want deal with both, but I wonder if at this point we can talk about the international music programming block which is -- now I have to get my notes, because I have trouble following all these categories.

6081 It is your non-ethnic programming period that is the international music, which is 6:00 to 10:00 a.m. and then 7:00 to 10:00 p.m.?

6082 Rather than getting into that right now, perhaps you can give me the type of Canadian music and your Canadian content levels during the international music component.

6083 MR. YLANEN: I will ask Keith to speak to the type of music, but I will state that, as per the CAEB initiative that falls under our CTD plan, there are over a thousand Canadian artists already catalogued as international and/or world music artists, Canadian talent of ethnic origin. There is significant talent out there -- I think the phrase was -- waiting to be discovered. We would like to help them to get discovered.

6084 The balance of it would be with the international programming specifically on the percentage level, is the question?

6085 THE CHAIRPERSON: Category 34. I am making sure I understand this, and correct me if I am wrong.

6086 In your international music segment -- that is your World Music Category 34 -- what would your Canadian content be during that period?

6087 MR. HO: The Canadian content in this case would be 10 per cent.

6088 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay, 10 per cent. Thank you.

6089 Now we get to the consideration of programming directed to Europeans as ethnic.

6090 You have identified European as an ethnic group and have committed to broadcast 40 hours of this type of programming each week. The Commission's acceptance of this type of programming as ethnic is key to satisfying the 60 per cent ethnic programming regulation required for your station to be considered as an ethnic undertaking.

6091 As you know, the ethnic broadcasting policy sets out that an ethnic program is defined as one in any language that is specifically directed to any culturally or racially distinct group other than one that is aboriginal Canadian or from France or the British Isles.

6092 I am wondering if you could elaborate on why you consider that Europeans constitute a culturally or racially distinct group.

6093 MR. YLANEN: Yes. The European title of the show allows us to bring it nicely together in terms of presenting to the Commission. The communities or the nations served would include Austria, Denmark, Finland, Germany, Holland, Italy, Portugal, Spain, Turkey, Iceland, Greece, Poland, Switzerland, Sweden, Russian, Belgium, Croatia, Bosnia, Hungary, Macedonia, Norway, Yugoslavia, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and others in case I have missed one.

6094 THE CHAIRPERSON: I doubt it.

--- Laughter / Rires

6095 THE CHAIRPERSON: What I am really trying to say is that what we have been grappling with here is that normally what we look for is a common bond. That is what we have in the past. What is the common bond that would constitute it being an ethnic group?

6096 That is what I am asking you for, what that common bond is amongst those countries or the people of those countries that would make them a distinct ethnic group.

6097 MR. YLANEN: As we are seeing now in Europe with the European Union, everybody coming together, there is a common bond, particularly through the music. The music is the language that is universally spoken.

6098 I will use my culture, my community as an example for you, if I can.

6099 My family is from Finland. My parents immigrated to Canada. I am second generation Canadian. English is not my first language, as may be obvious sometimes.

6100 What I want to say is that when the Finns get together with the Swedes and the Danes and other Icelanders, we speak English. When we are amongst our own communities we speak our national language. So the common bond becomes English.

6101 When we get together it is usually through a festival of sorts, and then it becomes the music. So we celebrate our cultures through the music. The music really is the common bond.

6102 For Europeans, as you probably noticed in the video, there is a cross-cultural respect. Italians enjoy the music of Portugal. The Spaniards enjoy the music of Italy. The Greeks enjoy music and life and the celebrations that it brings in everyone's music. That is the common bond, and that is what we try to present today to the Commission.

6103 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

6104 I know you referred to the spoken word. European programs will include news, information and current events from Europe of interest to listeners of European background.

6105 What specific types of spoken word content would you broadcast that would reflect this, and where would you get the information from Europe?

6106 MR. JIM: Since the format for this radio will be music driven, academically we would like to broadcast 50 per cent of the news in local content and 25 per cent in national and 25 per cent in international. But that is only academically.

6107 I think when it comes to actual practice, it really depends on the newsworthiness of the day as it develops.

6108 On the part of news gathering, we rely pretty heavily on our contacts in the community. It is our intention to bring in people who have multi-lingual capabilities to do the show. We would begin a show with English language news capsule type of report; a brief two or three minutes type of news capsule. We will repeat it twice in international languages during the program.

6109 THE CHAIRPERSON: So you are going to be doing some third language spoken word. Did I hear you?

6110 Is that what you said? Or was it all English?

6111 MR. YLANEN: I will speak to that.

6112 The news component of the third language shows with --

6113 THE CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I may have misled you. I am now talking about the European show, not the others.

6114 MR. YLANEN: Within the European program the news would be done in English. The spoken word component would be done again in English.

6115 THE CHAIRPERSON: What is the nature of that spoken word content going to be -- I am not quite sure, and I just want to make sure I understand that -- that would reflect European as culturally and racially distinct?

6116 MR. HO: Maybe I can ask Paulette to speak to this.

6117 MS MacQUARRIE: There would be community information that would be fed in from the community that is not as readily available on mainstream news, for example, countries that just don't get the coverage. That would be woven in, filtered through the community.

6118 So it would be reflected back that way.

6119 THE CHAIRPERSON: Maybe the best way to do it so that I can understand is this: Give me an example of what spoken word I might hear if I were listening to this European popular word? So that I can understand why it would be European in English and why European is a culturally and racially distinct group, what it sound like?

6120 MS MacQUARRIE: It would be in English, and it would be referring to the various different groups that are represented.

6121 Again, as Tim was saying, it would depend also on the newsworthiness. We would have news coming in and we would determine, as in any other news broadcast, what would be newsworthy.

6122 Quite often it would be news that would not be held elsewhere on mainstream simply because there is too much competition for all the news stories to be covered.

6123 For example, in my country of origin, which is Ukraine, very little is often heard because it is just not deemed newsworthy. But there are some 68,000 people in the Lower Mainland that want to know what is going on. You can't all hear it on CBC or CTV.

6124 THE CHAIRPERSON: Where would you get that information?

6125 MS MacQUARRIE: That information would be available. There are news sources now in Ukraine. It would also be through writers and broadcast news and wherever it is available, and also community sources. We do have connections within the community and also in our country of origin.

6126 THE CHAIRPERSON: Just so I understand this, the European spoken word content would be country specific with respect to being pockets of programming?

6127 MS MacQUARRIE: It could be, yes.

6128 MR. HO: If I may also add to that, it would be country specific but it would also be community specific locally. We would have local information; that we are also targeting the local community information to be announced as well.

6129 THE CHAIRPERSON: To make sure I understand this, your European spoken word programming would be -- you would source it from both the community and from the specific country.

6130 MR. HO: From the community, from the country, as well as we also have readily available at this moment news syndication that will send us news.

6131 THE CHAIRPERSON: From the various different countries.

6132 MR. HO: That's right.

6133 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I may come back to that, but I will leave it at that.

6134 Why are you not proposing to offer third language programs to some of these individual European ethnic groups that you have identified?

6135 MR. YLANEN: Again going back to my own community as an example, there are approximately 10,000 people of Finnish origin in the Greater Vancouver area. Up until a few years ago we had a program. It was a program that began in 1972 and went on through to I think two years ago. It unfortunately it was ended.

6136 The reason it ended was because our community was deemed too small as an individual community to warrant the hour that was requested or that was needed to get the information, to find out what was going on within our own community.

6137 It is a shame that the program ended, because it left people like myself without a service to know what is going on. However, if there is a program built in within the European show itself that provides the information of what is going on in Finland today, if there is something of interest, or within the community specifically to our local community, then we get the message. We know that is going on. This is what is happening at the Scandinavian Center this week, or this major event is taking place.

6138 Right now there is no source for that information in the community.

6139 If you take the 10,000 Finns and add them to the other Scandinavians in the market, you have a significant number of people. Through that you have the interest of the advertising market.

6140 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I will get to advertising.

6141 What would be the impact on your proposed station if the Commission were to consider your 40 hours of European programming as non-ethnic?

6142 MR. YLANEN: I just want to make sure I understand clearly. Could you repeat the question, please.

6143 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. As you have proposed it now, you would like us to consider your European programming to be ethnic.

6144 What if we were to not accept this as ethnic and say this is not going to be acceptable to us?

6145 MR. YLANEN: There are two avenues open to us. One would be to increase our third language level and include the European languages. There is some room in the schedule to do that and meet the requirement to make it ethnic.

6146 The other, of course, would be, as we discussed previously, to stick to the 29 per cent third language requirement, categorize the specialty licence as Category 3, subcategory 33, and continue on.

6147 MR. HO: Excuse me, Madam Chair.

6148 In this situation, when you say the European popular world music, if you deny it to be an ethnic programming, does that also refer to the Canadian content?

6149 THE CHAIRPERSON: I am asking you actually.

6150 MR. HO: Okay. If you are talking about Canadian content, for sure obviously this will affect the Canadian content. Under the ethnic policy it would be 7 per cent. We of course would have to increase that to the Canadian content. In the specialty format Category 3, subcategory 33, it would be up to 10 per cent.

6151 We are ready to meet with that kind of Canadian content requirement. That is not a problem with us; in other words, increasing from 7 to 10 per cent. That is not a problem at all with us.

6152 THE CHAIRPERSON: That's fine. It is not a problem for you with respect to music. What about your overall proposal with respect to the station, the third language? If we don't consider it to be ethnic, how does it impact?

6153 We have dealt with the music part, but there are a lot of other elements to your station.

6154 MR. HO: It will affect our whole programming quite dramatically. Again, if we have to put a third language in these hours here, it will affect our total format again.

6155 As Ed was saying, there is some room that we can do it, but there is really not a whole lot of room. One of the most difficult situations for us at this moment is to target which European groups are large enough for us to broadcast their language during weekdays, during those hours, from Monday through Friday, that will be a meaningful time for them to listen.

6156 That will be a really difficult situation for us. There is really not enough population of any one single group of our European population in Vancouver for us to do that.

6157 THE CHAIRPERSON: What about some of the other ethnic groups, not European?

6158 MR. HO: If they are not European groups, most likely they are being broadcast on our AM stations already, meaning Chinese and South Asian, Japanese, et cetera.

6159 They are there, and there is a program available. The same thing with Koreans. There is a program available on other AM stations for them as well at this time.

6160 THE CHAIRPERSON: This may or may not be the right time to talk about it, but one of the issues is: Can the market support the addition of a fourth ethnic station?

6161 To a certain extent one issue is: Can the market support it?

6162 The second is: If it can, it's not such a bad thing for people to compete against one another for better programming.

6163 As far as the marketing and sales on that situation, I could ask John to comment on that.

6164 MR. IACOBUCCI: From my experience in the last 18 months with James, I know from a revenue standpoint that there is no room in the marketplace for that at this time. It is too fragmented. As our presentation here, we are applying for World Music. We are applying for something that is beyond the present guidelines, and we recognize that with the CRTC.

6165 This could open up interest for those who are in the second and third generation, and by doing that open up a whole new avenue of interest and audience that could be very marketable; and at the same time servicing some of the people from both sides: from the mainstream side and from the ethnic side as well.

6166 I think there is room for this. If there is not room, it is just not viable, in my opinion. I stand to be corrected.

6167 Certainly competition always helps everyone improve. But within the guidelines, within the audience available today, that competition is enough.

6168 MR. HO: I also may add that the total population of the ethnic community in Vancouver is almost 50 per cent. We are rounding at somewhere about 49 per cent, based on 1996 stats.

6169 Of that 50 per cent, right now we are looking at 70 per cent of that 50 per cent are non-Chinese composition at this time.

6170 In our experience, if we are able to survive with three radio stations serving the Chinese community, I believe the fourth one, serving the rest of the 70 per cent of the ethnic community should speak for itself.

6171 MR. YLANEN: Commissioner Grauer -- I am sorry, Madam Commissioner --

6172 THE CHAIRPERSON: Any of it works.

6173 MR. YLANEN: Thanks. I would just like to point out, if I can, that the European ethnic community here, as identified by the StatsCan figures in 1996, represents approximately half of the ethnic populace.

6174 The Chinese community represents 30 per cent of the ethnic populace, 15 per cent overall.

6175 The European component, those who consider themselves of European ethnic origin -- and we could break it down to any one of a hundred different categories or groupings -- are about 50 per cent, or almost half, 49 per cent, by my count here.

6176 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I think what we will do now is take a break for 15 minutes.

6177 MR. HO: Madam Chair, before you go away, there is one question that you asked: whether our format meets the current policy.


6179 MR. HO: I apologize for misunderstanding what you were asking.

6180 First of all, our format -- sorry.

6181 THE CHAIRPERSON: I was going to say don't apologize. This has been hard word for both of us trying to get through all of this.

6182 MR. HO: Thank you.

6183 First of all our format, everything that we do, falls under the current ethnic policy of CRTC. There is no doubt in our mind that it falls completely within the policy of the CRTC.

6184 The only thing that we are asking the Commissioners to do, Madam Chair, is to exercise your discretion.

6185 MR. YLANEN: That the Commission retains the discretionary call in the ethnic broadcast policy to set a different level of third language service.

6186 To further complement James' comment before you go away, is the category of Popular World Music or the creation of the subcategory may be helpful to ethnic stations in describing their music programming as by the definition from PN-2014.

6187 THE CHAIRPERSON: I appreciate your raising that, Mr. Ho. It was a poor choice of words on my part when what I should have been saying is if we were not to grant the exceptions as opposed to meeting it. I think that is what we are really talking about, is the minimum and the case for us to make an exception, as is provided for.

6188 So I take your point.

6189 We can talk about World Music when we get back. Thank you.

--- Upon recessing at 1503 / Suspension à 1503

--- Upon resuming at 1522 / Reprise à 1522

6190 THE CHAIRPERSON: We will continue.

6191 I have one further point on that last question, which is: If we were to not accept the European as ethnic, you agree to a Canadian content requirement of 10 per cent, as I understand it?

6192 MR. HO: Yes.

6193 THE CHAIRPERSON: What would happen to the spoken word programming?

6194 MR. HO: The spoken word programming in the European programming? We will be talking English.

6195 But all of our programming during that hour, even though it is spoken words in English, will be directed to different ethnic communities during the time. It is directed to the second and third generations.

6196 THE CHAIRPERSON: If we were to not accept it as ethnic, how would that block of programming change?

6197 If were to say European is not ethnic, what would happen there to the spoken word programming?

6198 MR. HO: Obviously we would have to increase the third language programming amongst our format.

6199 THE CHAIRPERSON: Is that what you would do then?

6200 MR. HO: Yes.

6201 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

6202 MR. YLANEN: Madam Chair, with that, we would still direct the programming to the European community. There would not be a change in the intent of the show. We would increase the third language commitment.

6203 In other words, to attain the third language level that you are looking for to satisfy the criteria to make the European programming a third language show -- i.e., ethnic -- it would count.

6204 THE CHAIRPERSON: I guess where this gets a bit complicated and what I may in fact do is see if I can clarify it now. And if not, I am going to see if counsel can do better, being more familiar with our regulations.

6205 The regulation requires a minimum of 60 per cent ethnic programming -- which is not variable by exception; this is the regulation -- and a minimum of 50 per cent third language programming, which we retain the discretion to do. And you have asked for the discretion in that area.

6206 What I am not quite sure I understand -- and I think maybe I am going to have to leave it to counsel -- is to understand how that is going to work if we don't accept European as ethnic.

6207 In other words, to keep it as a programming block that is European, I don't know how.

6208 Do you understand me?

6209 MR. HO: As I was saying, we have to look at the third language content of the programming. Obviously we will have to find a place to increase the third language somewhere along the line.

6210 THE CHAIRPERSON: I think that may require some attention.

6211 I think maybe what I am going to do is move along.

6212 Your sample one-day music list identified a predominance of Canadian artists and selections that would fall outside of your station's subcategory 33 music format.

6213 I am wondering if you could offer samples of the Canadian musical selections that would be broadcast during your World Music programming block that would fulfil your Canadian content requirement as part of the station's subcategory 33 Worldbeat and International music format.

6214 MR. PERRON: For the artists of Canadian content within the international portion of the programming would be artists like the artist I mentioned earlier, Alfa YaYa Diallo.

6215 These, by the way, are artists based here in Vancouver.

6216 Another one would be Jumbo. The style of music is contemporary African Kenyan music. Or even the Puente Brothers. They learned their musical knowledge from the very famous Buena Vista Social Club of the big international success.

6217 Within the European category, there are a few artists that would fit in there. They are Canada-wide. They are not specifically from Vancouver.

6218 They would be somebody like Ana Patrica, who is originally from Portugal; or Juan Miguel, who is half Latin American and half Spanish.

6219 So there is content out there.

6220 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

6221 MR. HO: Madam Commissioner, I would also refer to our letter dated August 14th. On the back we have provided a whole list of Canadian content songs that we will be playing. In addition to the list that we have provided, there will also be a list from CAEB. There are over 1,000 songs being catalogued at this moment as Canadian songs.

6222 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

6223 In the area of service to a variety of ethnic groups, we touched on this but I just want to be clear.

6224 In the area of service to a variety of ethnic groups, the Commission considers that a balance may be struck between the two priorities of serving as many cultural groups as practical and providing high quality programming to those groups that are served.

6225 In your proposal you are offering a weekly programming that will be devoted to at least 11 groups in a minimum of five languages.

6226 Given the multicultural and multiracial makeup of Vancouver, how did you choose the proposed groups and languages that you have identified in your application?

6227 MR. YLANEN: It is a twofold answer.

6228 The first part of it is we looked at the communities that have had their programming adversely affected; in other words, reduced over the past few years as the programming towards the Chinese communities has increased. Obviously it had to come from somewhere, and those communities are the ones we identified as having gone through the largest of the adverse effect impacted upon negatively, if you would.

6229 The other part of it, of course, is demand. We have a success story to share with the Commission on that.

6230 Recently we increased the Portuguese language program on our AM station CHMB by an hour. The response was overwhelming from the community. We went wow, this is great. Here we go. If we can do this with an hour, what could we do with ten hours?

6231 In so doing, we have included programming in the Portuguese language to both the Portuguese and Brazilian communities. I know individuals in the community supported that wholeheartedly in their letters of support.

6232 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. So it was primarily where you had seen a cutback in existing services.

6233 MR. YLANEN: The answer is yes, primarily.

6234 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

6235 Compared to the number of groups and languages served by the other Vancouver ethnic radio services, your station would represent the fewest. In fact, your commitment to serve a minimum of five languages is less than half of the next lowest total served in the market, which is 12 by your own CHMB.

6236 In assessing the overall merits of your application, what weight do you think the Commission should place on the number of groups and languages that you will serve?

6237 MR. YLANEN: Again, because of the unique characteristic of the FM application, we submit that we are indeed providing service to all ethnocultural communities here in Vancouver through the international program, through the European program and through the third language shows.

6238 That is our answer; that we submit we are providing a high level of service to many communities, quality service.

6239 THE CHAIRPERSON: The Commission continues to consider that smaller ethnic groups benefit from a basic level broadcasting in their own languages and from programming that assists in their full participation in Canadian society, reflects their culture and promotes cross-cultural understanding.

6240 Of the cultural groups identified in your application that will receive programming, which ones do you think are representative of the smaller ethnic groups in Vancouver?

6241 MR. HO: Maybe I can give you a very good example.

6242 Paulette is our language producer of the Ukrainian program.

6243 MS MacQUARRIE: Well certainly Ukrainian would be -- I have a personal bugaboo here. East Europe has not really been represented in the mainstream media a lot, so this would certainly be an opportunity in our community.

6244 The Ukrainian community just on very short notice managed to rustle up well over 200 letters of support for this application when they heard multicultural, we get on the air, great.

6245 So certainly that would be very attractive to a group like ours. I know that there are other east European countries and smaller western European countries as well.

6246 THE CHAIRPERSON: If I look at the schedule, is the Ukrainian programming you are speaking of and the Ukrainian ethnic group included here in European?

6247 MS MacQUARRIE: Definitely. The difference there on the AM, which is the program that I produce, it is a mix. We have quite a broad audience. We try to do bilingual because very many of the second and third generations like myself don't have great fluency in the language.

6248 We do things like introduce songs, what we call half-appeal, half-half, simply to accommodate that. On the European programming, for example, there will be a lot of people tuning in that will be quite thrilled to hear a Ukrainian song and understand the story behind it.

6249 On my program on AM, I might come up with something like (foreign language spoken) and then play the song, and nobody would understand if they were listening to that program; whereas on the European program, if I were the host or any other host would say: "Coming up next we have the Ukrainian who leads England with this song, hit no. 1 on the pop charts in 1992", for example.

6250 If they had another one now, it would be a little more contemporary, of course.

6251 These are the sorts of things. In our community we were thrilled to hear about a Ukrainian song in the Ukrainian language getting to no. 1 on the hit charts in England.

6252 So that is the kind of thing. Where else would you hear that but on a program like this?

6253 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

6254 Now I am on to marketing.

6255 Your proposed music format, Popular World and International Music Format to Vancouverites, are you aware if any stations with a similar format are operating anywhere else in Canada?

6256 MR. YLANEN: The response is no.

6257 THE CHAIRPERSON: What about in the U.S.?

6258 MR. YLANEN: I am not aware of any stations doing this in the U.S.

6259 THE CHAIRPERSON: So there is no way to measure the success or popularity of this kind of format?

6260 MR. YLANEN: Through our research and through our knowledge and understanding of the local market, we have been given strong support from the communities that indicates that this will be successful. We believe strongly in it.

6261 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

6262 MR. YLANEN: Question 5 of the Meiklejohn survey interview described to the respondents the proposed format. It featured a list of music styles, made up mostly of Spanish and Latin American artists.

6263 Given the undeniable popularity of these artists among ethnics and non-ethnics alike, does it signify that the popularity of world and international music format would be heavily dependent on Spanish and Latin American artists?

6264 MR. MEIKLEJOHN: Madam Chair, in fact, we have artists such as The Gypsy Kings and Jennifer Lopez, but we have artists also in our description such as Jackie Chung and The Chieftans.

6265 World Music -- and perhaps Keith can speak to this a little more accurately -- we chose the description based upon a cross-section of what we saw as popular in World Music sections in record stores at the time.

6266 MR. PERRON: Madam Chair, I would like to add to that.

6267 As I stated earlier, in the past five or six years there has been such an explosion in popular World Music. A good example of that would be the artist that we featured in our video, Bobel Gilberto. She comes from an extremely musical family. When that album of hers "Canto Tompo" was released approximately six or seven months ago, people thought okay, just somebody else. Let's see what happens.

6268 That album has just taken off. She has sold-out shows in Toronto and in Montreal. She was here in Vancouver this past summer at a sold-out show. She was scheduled to appear here two weeks ago, but she was taken ill. She was performing at the Commodore. That show has been rescheduled. Again it was sold out. It was something that nobody had expected.

6269 It was the same way with the Buena Vista Social Club.

6270 I work for the Virgin Entertainment Group, and just in the Vancouver store that we have I think it was two months ago we sold out of 100 copies of that album in a period of four weeks.

6271 You cannot base the sales of world music to something like 98 Degrees because it is a totally different audience. But just from that figure alone, that threw us totally off guard.

6272 When we tried contacting the distributor to get more copies, they say: "We don't have any more. You will have to wait like other music retailers across the country."

6273 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

6274 I have some advertising questions that I would like to ask.

6275 I think there is no question about the popularity of this kind of music, and I think what we are really trying to determine here is the format of the station and whether this music is targeted to ethnic groups generally or overall to a broader market.

6276 I think it is then depending on what kind of licence is the most appropriate, which has been a lot of these questions.

6277 Maybe what I will do is do the advertising and then we can get at that in perhaps a broader sense.

6278 In answer to a question in our deficiency letter you provided a table indicating that you expect that 85 per cent of your first year revenue would be derived from international and European music programs and the other 15 per cent from five ethnic groups.

6279 You also mention on page 19 of your supplementary brief that Chinese language programming has historically generated over 90 per cent of the advertising revenue at CHMB operated by the applicant, as well as Fairchild's two stations.

6280 Can you explain to us the factors leading you to believe that you can develop new advertising revenues and operate successfully without any Chinese programming?

6281 MR. IACOBUCCI: Yes. The world format would indeed have a wider appeal and include a lot of other people. As research says, we have about 750,000 total, something in that area, and that represents 43 per cent.

6282 Then we look at what would be in that ethnic group, and there would be about 351,000. So it is a much larger audience in total than you have, for instance, in the Chinese.

6283 So the numbers would be there to support the interest. As you say, we all know how it has boomed, how the music has boomed. I believe it will generate the numbers to support the advertising interest because of the appeal of the station.

6284 In the case of Chinese, you have three stations chasing, if you like, a couple of hundred thousand people, according to StatsCanada 1996, and now you have to look at a total market of about 350,000-odd.


6285 THE CHAIRPERSON: Can you elaborate for me your plans to develop that new advertising, especially the 85 per cent from international and European music programs?

6286 MR. IACOBUCCI: Yes, I could. What we would do is that by experience there would be a whole new opportunity to present this whole new audience to the advertising community.

6287 We can't fool ourselves. I know from experience that until we are able to generate numbers, the advertising agency community is somewhat reluctant. But by experience, I know that you can make up for that by dealing direct with the clients, making the presentation with rationale, advertising it properly and showing them the benefits that we have experienced by the research and our experience in radio.

6288 Does that --

6289 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

6290 My only question is, when you say presenting this new audience, where is this new audience going to come from?

6291 MR. IACOBUCCI: If I may give an analogy, over the years I have been very fortunate (a) to be part of broadcasting and (b) to be part of professional sports, particularly in Vancouver and in some parts across the country. Years ago when we were considered a hockey town, I remember the days when I used to do stats for the Vancouver Canucks and we were only drawing a couple of thousand people a game. People doubted then that we would be able to support an NHL club. But then we got the brand of being a hockey town, and we know the success of that.

6292 Then came along Arthur Griffiths who wanted to produce and introduce a new professional sport, and that was called basketball. Everybody was searching madly for where would these fans come from?

6293 They did research on hockey fans: Could you afford both, et cetera, that type of thing. They were in dire straits, to be truthful. They looked at the American cities and knew that they had a base and an understanding of basketball, but they questioned the success or possible success of basketball in Vancouver.

6294 And in fact Toronto went through the same sort of thing.

6295 What has happened of course is that now, because of my familiarity with sports and quite frankly who attended them, when you go to the basketball game -- which is now very successful, particularly with the new ownership in Vancouver -- it is a whole new audience that has been unserved. They are sports fans that did not necessarily have a vehicle.

6296 I believe that that is the same thing that is going to happen with world music. It is there.

6297 We would like to think that we are the rocket scientists who first discovered it, but we are not. It is big. It is huge.

6298 Now we are saying that with the multiculturalism that is involved and the numbers that are attributed to Vancouver, it is only going to get bigger.

6299 We are very confident that this could be a success.

6300 When you look at the revenue numbers, we have been very conservative. When you look at the available pie in the market, and I say the whole number, what is there and what we are looking at, we have been very conservative.

6301 We feel very confident that it will not only work from a revenue point of view but certainly from a high interest point of view in Vancouver.


6303 MR. MEIKLEJOHN: Madam Chair, we have some additional information which may be helpful.

6304 Within our ethnic sample of 710,000, we isolated the group which expressed an interest in listening to the proposed format once the format was described.

6305 We show 79 per cent as non-Chinese having an interest in listening to the station. Thank you.

6306 THE CHAIRPERSON: How much of the 85 per cent which you are going to generate from the international and European music programming will come from ethnic and non-ethnic advertisers?

6307 MR. IACOBUCCI: I don't have an exact number on that. But I would say, to address the concern that you have voiced about the Chinese, I believe on the Chinese my experience would tell me that it would be very little.

6308 I believe the ethnic advertisers, the non-Chinese, is where the bulk of that would come from.

6309 The percentage of that would be much larger in relationship to the Chinese. But once established audience and proven to the community, which we have no doubts about, that particular number will be a lot larger and you are going to get the advertising community to support that.

6310 We are not going to take it away from anybody. My experience has been that you never take away the money from anyone else. What you do is you establish more business for everyone else much like as opposed to having one store in a mall, you have a number of them.

6311 THE CHAIRPERSON: I know you have proposed that 75 per cent of your year one advertising revenue would come from new previously untapped sources.

6312 Is that correct?

6313 MR. IACOBUCCI: That number would read -- yes, that is correct, but that would read as new to ethnic radio.

6314 THE CHAIRPERSON: New to ethnic radio.

6315 MR. IACOBUCCI: Right.

6316 THE CHAIRPERSON: And where are they now?

6317 MR. IACOBUCCI: Where are they now? It sounds like they are next door.

6318 THE CHAIRPERSON: They probably are.

--- Laughter / Rires

6319 THE CHAIRPERSON: But there must be more than the people next door.

6320 MR. IACOBUCCI: Well, just like any other advertising medium, a lot of them would be in mainstream and various areas. A lot of them would be in print; a lot of them would be in television.

6321 Again, you establish this market. Not to be smart, but if you build it, they will come. But you have to build it.

6322 I have experienced this. I have experienced it with the AM station as well.

6323 THE CHAIRPERSON: I appreciate that. I think that it was new previously untapped, not new to ethnic that we were not clear on.

6324 MR. IACOBUCCI: Right.

6325 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

6326 MR. HO: Madam Chair, I think Paulette will have a very good example, because there is one agency that we constantly talk about in the Ukrainian community.

6327 Perhaps Paulette could talk to that.

6328 MS MacQUARRIE: There is a travel agent here in Burnaby that specializes in travel to eastern Europe. She is under a tight budget. Commissions are being cut from the airlines. You are aware of the airline industry. It is very tough for her to make a go of it. She does not have a very large advertising budget.

6329 We approached her and she can do advertising in kind. That is about all she can do for the community.

6330 She would love to do radio advertising. She just doesn't feel, with the half hour or hour a week, that she has any kind of bang for her buck for advertising just to the Ukrainian community, perhaps the Russian and maybe even the Croatian.

6331 But if she has a block of say ten hours a day where she is going to be targeting Ukrainian, Russian, Polish, Croatian, even western Europeans that want to go over to eastern Europe, she would think about it. She would certainly get a lot more exposure and more business as a result.


6333 MR. MEIKLEJOHN: Thank you, Madam Chair.

6334 We conducted a supplementary study. We interviewed 62 marketing executives with control of media, a random sample throughout Greater Vancouver.

6335 The general summary is that 90 per cent were predisposed and interested in the format as a potential advertising medium. Just over 50 per cent had an interest in the format to the point that they were interested in supporting this application.

6336 Just over 15 per cent actually -- it was interesting. They had an interest in pursuing immediate negotiations for some kind of a media buy.

6337 I thought I would bring that information forward for you.

6338 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

6339 In Schedule 17 you have listed the assumptions specific to your advertising sales. Your projections are based on a formula that incorporates an average commercial rate of $40 for a 30-second spot. It seems low compared with the other applicants, who are suggesting rates anywhere from $60 to $120.

6340 Could you please tell me what factors were taken into account.

--- Background noise / Bruit de fond

6341 MR. IACOBUCCI: There is no doubt about it that $40 is very low.

6342 Part of it is influenced by the ethnic factor at this point, because the rates are very low. The applicants that are much higher, the marketplace today is probably anywhere from $100 to $300 and more.

6343 The total revenue in the marketplace, as we know, is $89 million in that area. That is what this radio market is worth.

6344 We are talking about something that is, in total, about 1 per cent, 1-point-something in total. As a result, the spot rate is much lower.

6345 We will not be at first as an ethnic -- this is the --

--- Background noise / Bruit de fond

6346 MR. IACOBUCCI: I think I had a point here.

6347 I must say that as much as you rehearse, you are not quite ready for this.

--- Laughter / Rires

6348 THE CHAIRPERSON: They keep saying they are just about finished.

6349 MR. IACOBUCCI: What drives a lot of the rate -- we are very heavily agency driven as a medium in Vancouver. What drives the rate is the agencies. There is no doubt about it.

6350 If you were to dispense with all agencies, your rate would go down, either here or Toronto. Toronto, for instance, might be as much as 97, maybe in some stations 100 per cent, agency.

6351 So you have this driving force.

6352 We have approached it very, very conservatively, to say: Look, what can we do? How can we make it? How can we pay the bills and hopefully move on from there?

6353 We have really been very, very conservative in that approach.

6354 If you were to look at on the other side -- I go back to a question that you asked me earlier with regards to is there room for the traditional ethnic station. You have three stations chasing a couple of hundred thousand people in total on the Chinese side, and you have rates that go down to as low as $20 sometimes. Because they are not driven by that agency market-maker, you have to consider what is available out there.

6355 Do I think it will stay at $40? No. I think it could go up.

6356 Do I want to be conservative? Yes, I would like to be.

6357 As a previous panel suggested, even with the large sized company that they are, they said as much as they have been in business and the formula that they apply, there is no guarantee.

6358 We would rather be safe in that approach.

6359 THE CHAIRPERSON: I guess what I am struggling with is that it is an attractive music format. Certainly the studies indicate the popularity of the format. I think many of the artists are widely popular across all ethnic groups and mainstream population.

6360 The question is: Are the rates that you are proposing to charge more reflective of the smaller niche audiences present on an ethnic station than they are to the broader audience you are planning to appeal to?

6361 My question here is: In assessing your revenue projections and your business plan, how accurately is it reflecting the market realities with what is being proposed?

6362 MR. IACOBUCCI: All I can say to that is no, that does not reflect the interest level that we anticipate in any way.

6363 I think it brings up another point.

6364 In my experience in the marketplace everyone regards the ethnic as the small guy on the block. I know there is some concern with relation to the fact that there may be only one remaining licence, and the CRTC is very concerned about giving it to the station with the widest appeal perhaps, as one of the considerations. And I understand that.

6365 But when you are looking at the ethnic or in this case the ethnic multicultural, I don't think that we should look at or compare size by confusing revenue dollars with the size of the interest.

6366 THE CHAIRPERSON: We don't.

6367 MR. IACOBUCCI: Okay.

6368 THE CHAIRPERSON: I just want to say that we also don't necessarily license the station with the widest appeal. There are a number of factors that go into any licensing decision.

6369 The challenge for us is to balance a need in the market, broad appeal, and a lot of other factors: diversity, and whatnot. So this is not it.

6370 However, it is important that we understand that there is a business plan and revenue projections that accurately reflect what that applicant is proposing for the market. I think that is what is important for us to understand: the soundness of the business plan with respect to the format that is being proposed.

6371 That is why it is important to understand these things.

6372 Yes, Mr. Meiklejohn.

6373 MR. MEIKLEJOHN: I was just scratching --

--- Laughter / Rires

6374 THE CHAIRPERSON: I am trying to be alert to all these panel members who may have something to say.

6375 MR. IACOBUCCI: I would just add that I was giving more of my experience in the marketplace and the regard that we have for the ethnic marketplace. That's all I was trying to say.

6376 THE CHAIRPERSON: You did; thank you.

6377 One more before I get to an overall question, you have indicated that you are the only AM station in Vancouver that does not benefit from relation to a sister FM. I would like to point out that there is one other, as you know.

6378 I am wondering if you could provide us with examples of the potential synergies that your current AM station and the proposed new station would be able to generate; if you could quantify them for me.


6379 MR. HO: First of all, between our AM and FM, right now we have only one AM station at this moment, and we are serving 12 different languages.

6380 Primarily our revenue is coming from the Chinese community. So we are actually having at least ten other languages that we are trying to explore a different way of serving.

6381 With this FM and the way we are trying to approach the community, the community side of things is very, very important. That will help us in not only getting information from the community from two sides, both sides, the traditional generation, first generation as well as the second and third generations at the same time. We can send a group of people out that will be contacting them, and yet we will get information from different multiple levels of the generations that we can serve them better on the AM as well as on the FM.

6382 On the other hand, we also can quantify our large staff that we have in our AM, especially our format talk and current affairs. We have a lot of news crews out there contacting all our different communities right now.

6383 We can have the same crew in the news department that will also be able to gather all the information from international communities and be able to bring that information back.

6384 So that is another synergy.

6385 The third, of course, is they all will be under the same roof. I have actually from the beginning always had this in mind. Our space at this moment is about 9,000 square feet, and nobody runs one single stand-alone radio station with that kind of space.

6386 The reason that I preplanned it is always that we will become a multiple radio station instead of one radio station. It is long-term planning that I have.

6387 Fourth, we have of course the sales, the accounting, the administration that right now is looking after strictly one radio station. We will be able, with maybe the addition of a few more staff, to look after both radio stations in the administration, accounting and sales sides as well.

6388 And finally there is this community involvement that I am talking about. I always compare that: a radio station is like fish and the community and the public is like water. If the water is without fish, it is kind of dull. There is not much of a life. But you can imagine what happens to fish without water.

6389 So getting involved in the community is vitally important for us. That is where the synergies are going to be coming from. We will be able to fully explore our experience in this community.

6390 Perhaps Ed has something to add?

6391 MR. YLANEN: No. I think Mr. Ho has said it all very well.

6392 THE CHAIRPERSON: I guess my last -- not quite last. I will do technical issues.

6393 I want to preface my question with a bit of a statement. Let me say, first, that your proposal would bring diversity to the market and is certainly would be licensable under certain circumstances.

6394 But I think it is really important to stress here that we are evaluating a number of competitive applications for this last frequency. As I said, we have to balance a number of different factors when we do that.

6395 You have made an application under the ethnic policy. Again, I want to speak about the policy. The ethnic policy was developed to bring third language programming to Canadians for the most part, ethnic programming and third language programming dedicated to specific groups. There were ways that that could be financed one way or another.

6396 With television, because of the cost of production, there is a little more English permitted. So we have slightly different rules in that respect. In radio we have slightly different rules.

6397 By the time you get to second and third generation who are not interested in language programming, there are other formats in specialty available to do the kind of music and spoken word programming that you are proposing.

6398 Do you know what I am saying? To do much of what you are talking about in terms of international music and European and Popular World music, which is a big part of your schedule, you would not be an ethnic station but you could perhaps be a Category 3 specialty. But that would have different requirements with respect to Canadian content.

6399 I wonder if you could just give me your views on that and respond in terms of how we should approach licensing of this, particularly given that we may have great difficulty accepting European as ethnic.

6400 MR. HO: Madam Chair, first of all, we can agree with you fully and we appreciate that you have a difficult decision to make considering that you have really ten other worthy applications in front of you on top of ours.

6401 It is a situation where we can say, number one, our radio station is a stand-alone AM station at this moment, and we do need an FM.

6402 Considering the other day when I was hearing a local broadcaster, Mr. Jimmy Patterson, he was even complaining with one AM and one FM already on his hand.

6403 What we are also trying to do here is to be inclusive as well as culturally diverse. We also want to promote cross-culture communities and cross-culture understanding at this time.

6404 What we are doing in every single one of our programs is promoting the communities, the ethnic communities. Even though our language may be in English, our language is in English but it is promoting their community; not only communicating amongst themselves but also across the board as well.

6405 That is what we are trying to gear for. That is our number one priority.

6406 As far as the Canadian content is concerned, I had a lengthy discussion with our program specialist and everybody, and at this moment, Madam Chair, I can make a firm commitment to you that we will be and we are able to increase our minimum Canadian content. We will raise it to 15 per cent for the period of time. By the time our licence renewal comes, I have full confidence at this moment that we will be able even to reach the 35 per cent Canadian content.

6407 Like I say, we have done quite a bit of research in the last few months, and every time we tap into something we just find it is almost another pot of gold that is waiting to be discovered and it is nowhere being serviced in the Vancouver market.

6408 Everything demonstrates to us that there is a market that will demand and that requires this type of service, whether it is from record stores, sold-out concerts, all this music that people don't hear on music stations in Vancouver. Yet every time when we check something, we ask Keith to call people and there is a certain music that we would like to play, it is not that they don't have it. They say that they are sold out. They are truly sold out. They say: "Sorry, we will give it to you or send it to you in six weeks."

6409 So everything demonstrates to us that we will be able to have some service to this community here.

6410 THE CHAIRPERSON: My question here is this: The revenue potential from this kind of programming in the English language, both your European popular world music and your international popular world music, is much greater than will be generated by a traditional ethnic station, AM or FM.

6411 I think we have talked about that. We have talked about the music. We have talked about the broad appeal, given the fact that it is going to be in English.

6412 So my question is: Is it as an ethnic station, an ethnic specialty licence or a Category 3 that you would prefer to be licensed under, given that we may not accept the European block as ethnic and we may require you to do 50 per cent third language?

6413 MR. HO: Well, the licence we are applying for right now is ethnic specialty Category 3, subcategory 33, at this moment.

6414 I think our format is very well falling under the current ethnic policy at this moment. So if the Commission sees it otherwise, we would work with the Commission to find a proper format that the Commission finds fitting.

6415 Right now, like I say, what we are looking at, we are pretty certain and we are very sure that we are Category 3, subcategory 33, specialty ethnic licence.

6416 THE CHAIRPERSON: I am going to leave that to counsel.

6417 I just have one more question which is technical.

6418 We have asked of all the applicants who wish to use the 94.5 frequency. One of these is the CBC, which has proposed to use that frequency for its la Chaîne culturelle transmitter. You have not proposed any alternate frequencies that might be suitable for your application or for the CBC.

6419 Have you or your engineering consultants conducted studies to find alternate FM frequencies that could possibly be used in Vancouver, either for you or for the CBC? And if so, could you perhaps tell us what you found?

6420 MR. McCORMICK: Good afternoon.

6421 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon.

6422 MR. McCORMICK: As has been mentioned previously, the frequency congestion in the Vancouver area is such that any alternate frequency that might be found would have restrictive parameters and very limited coverage.

6423 This is a commercial station application that will be competing with the existing commercial stations that are operating on full Class C channels in the area.

6424 So the answer is no, we have not done any other studies.

6425 THE CHAIRPERSON: You have no other studies.

6426 I don't know if you heard the proposal this morning from CHUM with respect to their AM site and the possible use of the frequency 1200.

6427 I wonder if you heard that and could comment on that at all on whether it might be appropriate.

6428 MR. McCORMICK: Yes, I did hear the proposal.

6429 I believe the CBC was offered 1200 in Victoria --


6431 MR. McCORMICK: And they did not accept it at that time.

6432 My suggestion would be that it is in the interest really of all the stakeholders in this process to work co-operatively to try to resolve this technical issue. The stakeholders would be, of course, the CRTC, Industry Canada, the CBC and any commercial applicant that is given a licence.

6433 THE CHAIRPERSON: So you think that possibly such a co-operative approach might prove fruitful?

6434 MR. McCORMICK: I think that is the only way. There have been a number of suggestions made as to alternatives. You can do studies that until you know whether they would be at least accepted in principle, particularly by the CBC because they control a number of channels in this area and they have probably the greatest flexibility to move channels around.

6435 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

6436 Could you elaborate why, in your opinion, you should be granted the 94.5 application rather than to the CBC or to any other applicant?

6437 MR. HO: The CBC has been here a lot longer than we have, and I am sure CBC has its functions in this community as well.

6438 However, if you take a look at our application at this moment, what we have identified and targeted, the audiences are bigger and greater than what CBC is proposing.

6439 Secondly, our proposal is truly reflective of this changing community. This community is not going to stop changing at this moment. We have designed our format to grow with the community at the same time.

6440 What we are saying here is, Madam Commissioner and Commissioners, what you have in front of you is a very innovative type of ethnic broadcasting that we are proposing. Like I say, it is certainly very inclusive, very reflective of this community, especially since this is the last FM there is available.

6441 We certainly also have great concern and great admiration for the ethnic communities who have arrived in Canada a lot earlier than the Chinese community and who have helped to build this community and who have helped contribute to this community and who stand here to show the newcomers good examples of what they can do and what they have done.

6442 I would just say that this is one chance that we would want to service this community, which, for whatever reason in the last little while, has seen their services been reduced.

6443 Madam Commissioner and Commissioners, this is my reason to your question. Thank you.

6444 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

6445 If for any reason 94.5 were not available, would you be able, ready and willing to use another frequency if one could be found for your proposed FM station?

6446 MR. HO: Yes. We replied in our deficiency letter that if there is another clear signal with equal quality that is available, of course we will definitely consider that.

6447 THE CHAIRPERSON: And would you be willing to use an AM frequency for your proposed station?

6448 MR. HO: No. We already have one AM; thank you.

6449 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

6450 I believe Commissioner Cram and Commissioner Cardozo have questions.

6451 Commissioner Cram...?

6452 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you.

6453 Earlier in this hearing -- it may have been Monday or it may have been Tuesday -- we were talking about employment equity, and Commissioner Grauer was looking at panels and finding out that they were all suits, if I can use the expression.

6454 Now today, after today or with your group, we have had nine groups, applications, either be it jazz, urban or ethnic, all saying that they would appeal to the ethnic population; all using the same words that you used -- I believe it is Mr. Ho -- inclusive, culturally diverse, cross-cultural understanding.

6455 And yet not in one panel have I seen one Indo-Canadian.

6456 It appears to me from the statistics that they are the second largest ethnic group in the Lower Mainland in the Vancouver area. They are certainly, in terms of the numbers coming into Canada by way of immigration, marginally lower than Chinese.

6457 I am not saying the inclusiveness, the cultural diversity and the cross-cultural understanding from not only yourselves but any other applicant who talked the talk. I want to know what are you offering to the Indo-Canadians in this particular licence.

6458 MR. HO: First of all, we do have a program in the Indo-Canadian. Sushma Datt has been with us for many, many years.

6459 COMMISSIONER CRAM: No. What are you offering them in this station, in this application?

6460 MR. HO: Secondly, we also in our AM station have a South Asian person working our radio station fulltime for over six years as our chief accounting.

6461 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Mr. Ho, I said already that I want to know what you are going to add for what is the second largest group in this whole area.

6462 You are saying you are an ethnic application, and I want to know what this will add for them.


6463 MR. YLANEN: Commissioner Cram, perhaps I may speak to that.

6464 The Indo-Canadian community here is large. It is significant and it is very important. We are inclusive.

6465 Yes, I know you have heard those words, and imagine how we felt as an ethnic broadcaster hearing those words from other broadcasters. We don't pay this lip service. We mean it. We are ethnic.

6466 We have an inclusive program. The international show will include programming or music to the Indo-Canadian community.

6467 Above and beyond that particular show, at this time I have to tell you that there has been a recent change at our competitor station where they have implemented Indo-Canadian programming. It would make it difficult for us, because it would be a duplication of service. We are trying to avoid that as ethnic broadcasters. We are trying to create complementary services.

6468 There are four existing SCMOs in the market, and they have an effect on our ability to provide quality programming to the Indo-Canadian community.

6469 Several years ago there was AM programming available on a large quality basis in this marketplace, but the SCMOs one after another after another carved into it. Until the SCMO situation can be resolved, it becomes very difficult for any ethnic broadcaster. We wish our competitor the best with the program to effectively serve the community.

6470 It divvies the pie up just too many ways and too small.

6471 We can include the community with our international program. Thus it is inclusive. Thus it is offered to the community.

6472 MR. HO: I also would like to add that if we are going to get this FM licence, of course we will have equal opportunities as well from the employment side for all ethnic background as well.

6473 THE CHAIRPERSON: That was not the question.

6474 The issue is the only thing that is additional for a very substantial group in this licence application is in the international programming, which will be in English.

6475 What you are saying is by virtue of your choice to not compete on ethnic coverage, there will be nothing more than that.

6476 MR. YLANEN: We are not saying there will be nothing. We are saying until the situation -- and I know it is being addressed by the Commission -- with regard to SCMOs can be satisfied, as there are signals coming into this market from the U.S. stations, and I know there are steps being taken at this time by the Commission to address that issue. When that can be resolved, we would be pleased -- in fact, we would be thrilled to be able to offer that programming.

6477 But to compete directly with the show that is being added on our competitor now would jeopardize the programming that is just beginning to establish its roots in this market towards the community.

6478 We don't want to put anybody's show or any community's services at jeopardy by doing that. It would not be fair to them.

6479 COMMISSIONER CRAM: If I were a listener of this station and I didn't listen after 10:00 at night or on weekends, what would be the difference between your station and any American World Beat station except the odd Canadian CD, which could be on a U.S. station, and a little bit of information about communities?

6480 What would I see anything different?

6481 MR. YLANEN: You would hear the voices of our communities, of our ethnocultural groups, coming together. I can't speak for the American stations. I am not familiar with American World Music format.

6482 In this marketplace, as ethnic broadcasters, we know our ethnic market and they know us. This is the way that we feel is the most appropriate at this time to make the best use of this frequency to serve our community, which represents half the populace of the Lower Mainland.

6483 It is inclusive of all communities.

6484 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you.

6485 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Cardozo...?

6486 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you, Madam Chair.

6487 I have a few questions too. I hope you are enjoying this silent time here.

6488 I should just say that, as you know, the decisions are made several weeks after the hearing. So the background noise is something that really does fade into the background as we go through several sessions of sober second thought. And of course the decisions are based on everything you have filed before today, today's session, and any other intervenors later on. So there are a whole lot of things that go into it.

6489 We recognize that you had to struggle this afternoon, as the previous applicant, and we appreciate that.

6490 I want to get some more clarity on the proportions of the music.

6491 As I understand it, what you are talking about is 29 per cent would be third language; 31 per cent is what you are calling European; and the remaining 40 per cent would be Category 2.

6492 Is that correct?

6493 MR. YLANEN: I am sorry, when we speak in proportion of percentage of programming, we meant specifically programming to the six hours of Greek or six hours of Italian, six hours of third language, et cetera, would consist of the 29 per cent third language programming.

6494 That is inclusive of spoken word and the music.

6495 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So it is 29 per cent would be third language.

6496 MR. YLANEN: This is correct.

6497 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: The other 31 per cent of the 60 ethnic that you are calling would be European?

6498 MR. YLANEN: I believe this to be correct.

6499 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And the remaining 42 is Category 2?

6500 MR. YLANEN: Forty per cent of the program schedule would be international programming, Category 3, subcategory 3, World Music.

6501 THE CHAIRPERSON: Could I interrupt you here?


6503 THE CHAIRPERSON: This is where I said that I thought our counsel could straighten out these pieces, because I had much of the same problem.

6504 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. Just do that last part again, and I will quit for now.

6505 The 40 per cent would be...?

6506 MR. YLANEN: In a nutshell, 60 per cent of the program schedule is ethnic, of which 29 per cent is third language.


6508 MR. YLANEN: Forty per cent, which is the international program for scheduling purposes, is considered to be non-ethnic, but it is world music, Category 3, subcategory 33.

6509 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And that is specialty.

6510 MR. YLANEN: Specialty, yes.

6511 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So in terms of Canadian content, what you are offering is that 40 per cent would be 10 per cent Canadian content?

6512 MR. HO: What I am saying here is that in order to make everything very clear and straightforward, there will be 10 per cent across the board, minimum. All day long across the board will be 10 per cent minimum Canadian content.

6513 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I think the penny is dropping for me.

6514 MR. HO: Right. And I am personally making a commitment here that by the year of licence renewal I will make sure that we will be reaching, even with the ethnic licensing, we will be reaching the 35 per cent of Canadian content.

6515 That is something that I am willing to commit to the Commission at this moment.

6516 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Let me just go to European for one more minute, and I hope this is not part of what counsel is going to ask too. Let me take one more run at it.

6517 I want you to understand that we are not trying to rule who is an ethnic group and who is not in the societal sense. That is up to everybody out there. We are just trying to deal with our policies.

6518 Mr. Ylanen, you talked about Europe becoming more closer or homogenous, but I would suggest to you that that is happening more in the economic, perhaps social and political context, but that in cultural and linguistic terms countries still want to maintain their distinctiveness.

6519 That is the part that we are dealing with, is language, and culture to some extent.

6520 I just want to understand. The music that you are talking about in this European category would be in what language?

6521 MR. YLANEN: Would be in the different languages of the nations of Europe. It would still be Category 3, subcategory 33, World Music, performed in the languages.

6522 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: That's the European.

6523 Can you give me examples of artists who are -- you said there are artists from one country who are popular in another country in Europe. Do you have examples of European artists who are singing in one language and are popular in another country?

6524 MR. PERRON: Yes, for sure.

6525 In the video that we presented before, Enriques Iglasias. Even though he is from Spain, he released his debut album originally in Italian. The first single from that was called (foreign language spoken). A couple of weeks later he put out a Spanish version of that record.

6526 There are also artists such as Iro Slamizoti(ph.) from Italy, Laro Pasinio(ph.) also from Italy, that are quite well known in Germany and even in Scandinavia.

6527 Once a year in Europe there is a contest that is held, called the Eurovision Song Contest. It has been going on for the past 30 years.

6528 The past three that have been held -- there was one in Switzerland, one in Belgium and I think there was also one in Copenhagen -- it was the first time that the entire contest, because it is broadcast to all European countries, was actually broadcast entirely in English to all of Europe.

6529 Each of those countries, of course, their own local broadcasters would put subtitles at the bottom of the screen. But the concert, no matter what country it was taking place in, was presented in English.

6530 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: The concert was presented, meaning the spoken word was in English?

6531 MR. PERRON: Yes, the spoken word was presented in English. But the songs were in the language of where the artist was from. So if the artist was from Holland, the song would be performed in Dutch.

6532 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Are there examples of this type of European-wide radio stations which are playing music in various European languages?

6533 MR. PERRON: Within Europe, yes.

6534 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Is it a popular phenomenon? Is it new?

6535 MR. PERRON: There is a radio station based in Cologne, Germany. They used to be called Deutscholankfunk. They have changed name now. They broadcast to all of Europe on longwave, mediumwave and shortwave. They broadcast all their programming in English and in German. The spoken word is in those two languages.

6536 If it is on the English portion of the programming, the music is played in a variety of European languages. It is the same thing for their four-hour daily German broadcast to all of Europe. They play the music in a variety of different languages.

6537 Their listenership -- and these are figures from the European Broadcast Union -- averages somewhere between 1 to 2 million listeners a week throughout all of Europe.

6538 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: The countries you have mentioned have largely been Nordic, west European, south European. Is it your experience that eastern European countries are also participating in this cross European approach?

6539 MR. PERRON: Yes. In the last couple of years, because of the changes within Europe, you are starting to see a lot of artists from Russia, the Ukraine, former Republics of the USSR. Hungary, Poland and Rumania are also appearing now in the Eurovision Song Contest.

6540 In the past five years or even six years, since World Music has really been getting popular, a lot of the record labels have been discovering artists in this region of the world which before was totally unchartered waters.

6541 There have even been record labels that have started up to bring the music of eastern Europe to the west.

6542 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Finally, I know what our category says but I just want to get your sense of the difference between Worldbeat and Urban music and why you picked one over the other.

6543 We heard quite a bit earlier this week from Urban Music applicants who felt that that was really a format and a genre that is very popular among the multicultural, the full cultural mosaic of young people in this area.

6544 MR. PERRON: Urban music -- let me see if I understand the question correctly.

6545 You are asking me of the difference between Urban and World music.

6546 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And why you picked World.

6547 MR. PERRON: World music does not just cover one particular style. It covers everything from Technomusic to Dance music, to House music to old fashioned Rock and Roll, to what I would call stereotypical American Top Forty. It covers many different genres.

6548 Urban, coming from the music industry and having worked as a radio broadcaster, mainly covers the areas of Soul and Rap and Hip Hop. It is completely different.

6549 There are some artists from Europe that do perform Urban music, but it is mainly a U.S. style. So a lot of the European artists will want to protect --

6550 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I am not looking at the European side. I am just looking at the World part.

6551 MR. PERRON: Yes.

6552 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: In that context are you saying that Urban is a part of World?

6553 MR. PERRON: There are aspects of it that can be, for sure.

6554 On the music list that is in the application there is an artist from Germany, by the name of Xaver Naidoo, who is half East Indian and half German. He sings a mixture of traditional East Indian music with Rap elements to it.

6555 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you very much.

6556 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Commissioner.

6557 Counsel...?

6558 I am going to make sure that you ask all the right questions here.

6559 MR. RHÉAUME: Yes. Mr. Ho and colleagues, I am confused.

6560 In the last exchange with Commissioner Grauer, I believe you indicated 15 per cent Canadian content. Was that for Category 3 music?


6561 MR. HO: First of all, let me clarify.

6562 With the original format that we have, just going strictly by the policy definition here, for Category 3, subcategory 33, format we are talking about 10 per cent Canadian content.

6563 For the ethnic policy as indicated by Madam Chair, really it is Canadian content of 7 per cent. That is what the policy says.

6564 What we have proposed in our original proposal is 10 per cent across the board, making everything the same at 10 per cent.

6565 I have also made a further commitment in this hearing to say that I can go up to 15 per cent across the board and increase that by the time we reach licence renewal. I have the confidence and the commitment to say at this moment that we will be able to increase the Canadian content to 35 per cent across the board, given the format we are having right now.

6566 MR. RHÉAUME: Let's backtrack a bit and go back to a discussion on whether or not the European Popular World Music program qualifies as ethnic program.

6567 If it does not, and if the Commission determines that you are not an ethnic station, therefore you would be licensable as a commercial station, what are your commitments then to Canadian content in both 75 per cent Category 3, subcategory 33, and Category 2 as well?

6568 MR. HO: We will shorten the Canadian content requirement. Instead of in the seventh year being 35 per cent -- I still will say give us a period of time because this is an area where will still have to grow. But I would say instead of the seventh year licence renewal time that we will be 35 per cent Canadian content, we will be faster.

6569 MR. KANE: Excuse me, counsel.

6570 MR. RHÉAUME: I notice that Mr. Kane is just dying to jump in.

6571 MR. KANE: What is important, I think, is to have clarification on your last question.

6572 I think I heard you say that there would be a Category 2 component of the programming?

6573 MR. RHÉAUME: Assuming that your music is 75 per cent, as you applied for, subcategory 33, then I am assuming that the 25 per cent would be Category 2.

6574 MR. KANE: Excuse me. That is a very important clarification.

6575 MR. RHÉAUME: Sure.

6576 MR. KANE: If the ethnic falls away according to Commission determination -- and we can present submissions on why it should not -- all of the programming in terms of the category would be Category 3, sub 33. It would all be World Beat and International music.

6577 MR. RHÉAUME: Mr. Kane, I am just talking about music here.

6578 The issue is if the station is not licensed as ethnic, it would be licensed as a commercial station. What would be the music composition, the components, which categories?

6579 I understood it to be 75 per cent Category 33, which would become a condition of licence, of course.

6580 MR. KANE: As we have explained in the application, the real difference between the International morning program and afternoon drive home program and the European Popular World program is simply the ethnic communities to which it is directed.

6581 The International music program in the morning and the afternoon is directed at all ethnic groups. The European and Popular World music program is directed at European ethnic groups.

6582 The point is that throughout the broadcast day all of the music is in Category 3, subcategory 33.

6583 As the Commission has indicated in the Public Notice, that was of assistance to ethnic licensees in terms of helping to describe their programming.

6584 The important point, in my submission, is that should the Commission determine that it does not satisfy the regulations, not the policy -- and this is important, Madam Chair. The policy is a guide to the Commission, of course not a requirement.

6585 If we don't satisfy the regulations with respect to ethnic programming, then it is a specialty format, Category 3, sub 33.

6586 MR. RHÉAUME: Yes, that was my premise, Mr. Kane.

6587 If the Commission is not satisfied that this is indeed an ethnic station, are you saying that 100 per cent of the music is Category 33?

6588 MR. KANE: To be precise, Category 3, subcategory 33, correct.

6589 MR. RHÉAUME: Yes.

6590 MR. KANE: Yes.

6591 MR. RHÉAUME: What percentage of that, then, would be Canadian?

6592 MR. KANE: I am sorry, there was a noise, and I did not hear.

6593 MR. RHÉAUME: What percentage of that would be Canadian?

6594 MR. KANE: As Mr. Ho has indicated, at the point of licensing, 15 per cent. We would give a commitment to the Commission that over the course of the licence -- to by year 7 at the time of renewal -- it would grow to 35 per cent.

6595 It would exceed the 10 per cent at the day of licensing on the first day of operation.

6596 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you.

6597 Madam Chair, I think I understand, and there are two more phases --

6598 MR. KANE: Madam Chair, if there is confusion, I have a solution I would like to propose.

6599 THE CHAIRPERSON: Propose? We do have two more phases, though, as counsel just said.

6600 MR. KANE: I appreciate that.

6601 THE CHAIRPERSON: But certainly go ahead.

6602 MR. KANE: This is not intervention.

6603 We believe that if we were to invite a condition of licence that we could address the difficulty the Commission is having with the approach we are taking.

6604 If I may have just one moment in terms of the difficulty -- and we do appreciate the difficulty -- I would submit that in examining our proposal -- and it is different. We acknowledge that it is a little bit different, but it is consistent with the ethnic policy.

6605 To fully appreciate our approach to it, it is our submission that the Commission should look at program as having both a spoken word and a musical component.

6606 As Mr. Ylanen and Mr. Ho have indicated, the musical component in all of our programming is going to be in a third language.

6607 Where we are somewhat different, but not radically different, is that in some of our programming the spoken word component is in English, as we have indicated, to position the third language songs that will be played. It is also bilingual and it is also third language.

6608 In the bilingual and third language we quite clearly satisfy the traditional approach to ethnic programming, if I could put it that way.

6609 The conditions of licence that we would invite from the Commission would be as follows, if I may briefly read them into the record.

6610 It would require Mainstream to provide programming directed to ethnocultural groups, other than to the Chinese community, in a minimum of five different languages.


6611 That would be the conventional type of condition of licence for an ethnic programming undertaking.

6612 The second would be complementary but also important. Mainstream will undertake by condition of licence to operate within the specialty format category 3, subcategory 33, for all programming that is not ethnic as defined in the radio regulations, or as amended from time to time by the Commission.

6613 Then, to ensure absolutely that we would maintain an ethnic approach to our programming format, there could be a third condition of licence, that Mainstream will undertake by condition of licence that the musical programming in specialty format category 3, subcategory 33, will be in any language that is specifically directed toward any culturally or racially distinct group, other than one whose heritage is Aboriginal Canadian, from France or from the British Isles.

6614 It is my submission that if you take those three conditions of licence, you would be ensuring that we are in the spirit and, in my submission, the letter of an ethnic broadcaster. To the extent that we are not, and if the first condition fell away, the second and the third would ensure that we were programming in the musical component in a third language, and it would only be the oral component -- the spoken word component -- within the programs which might be, in some instances, English, but also in bilingual and third language components.

6615 Thank you.

6616 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Kane.

6617 Counsel...

6618 MR. RHÉAUME: Briefly, Madam Chair.

6619 Mr. Kane, can you file this in writing somehow?

6620 We have two other phases, and I must admit that I do not understand where you are coming from. So we could have a further discussion in one of the two other phases.

6621 MR. KANE: I would be pleased to file it in writing.

6622 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you.

6623 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

6624 MR. HO: Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, Commissioners.

6625 THE CHAIRPERSON: We will take a short recess.

--- Upon recessing at 1650 / Suspension à 1650

--- Upon resuming at 1700 / Reprise à 1700

6626 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon.

6627 Madam Secretary...

6628 MS VOGEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

6629 Next on our agenda is an application by Gary Farmer, on behalf of a company to be incorporated and to be known as Aboriginal Voices Radio, for a broadcasting licence to carry on an English and Aboriginal Language Native Type B FM radio programming undertaking at Vancouver.

6630 The new station would operate on a frequency of 90.9 MHz, with an effective radiated power of 1,200 watts.

6631 Please go ahead whenever you are ready.


6632 MR. KENNEDY: Greetings, Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, Commission Staff and members of the public.

6633 We are pleased to appear before you today to speak on behalf of Aboriginal Voices Radio, a non-profit organization owned and operated by Aboriginal people from all regions of Canada.

6634 Before we begin our opening remarks, we wish to honour and recognize the Coast Salish people upon whose traditional territory we are permitted to meet here today. Especially, I have the honour of introducing to the Commissioners the Chief of the Squamish Nation, who is with us to the far right, Chief Bill Williams.

6635 We will now introduce ourselves.

--- Native Language Spoken / langue étrangère parlée

6636 My name is Bob Kennedy. I am a member of the Oneida Nation. I am also a member of the founding Board of Directors of Aboriginal Voices Radio. I have had the pleasure and privilege of working as a broadcaster journalist in this country much of my life.

6637 As well, I am the publisher of Turtle Island Native Network,

6638 MS PIERRE: (Native language spoken.)

6639 My name is Billie Pierre. I am one of the co-founders of Redwire magazine, which produces a provincial native youth job magazine and a national uncensored native youth magazine.

6640 Also, we do literacy workshops and issue updates through e-mail.

6641 I am also a radio program producer at CFRO.

6642 MS BUFFALO: (Native language spoken.)

6643 My name is Marilyn Buffalo. I am a member of the Samson Cree Nation. I have just completed a three-year term as President of the Native Women's Association of Canada, and I have acted as native affairs advisor at the University of Alberta and as a policy advisor to the Assembly of First Nations.

6644 I have 30 years of community development experience in urban, rural and northern isolated communities. And I believe strongly in the power of radio to make an everyday difference in Vancouver area Aboriginal communities.

6645 MR. FARMER: (Native language spoken.)

6646 My name is Gary Farmer. I am the Speaker of the Aboriginal Voices Radio Board of Directors. I am also an actor and a radio and television producer, and I am a long-time worker in the development of native broadcast media.

6647 MS REECE: Hi, my name is Cleo Reece. I am a video-maker and a radio broadcaster at Co-op Radio. I am one of the founders of the Indigenous Media Arts Group which presents the IMAGeNation Film and Video Festival here every year.

6648 MS WARD: (Native language spoken.)

6649 Hello. My name is Joy Ward. I am a Cree Métis.

6650 I am a policy consultant with the Health Association of British Columbia, and I am also a director of the Métis Commission for Children and Families.

6651 MR. DESMARAIS: Hello, my name is Lou Desmarais. I am the Executive Director of the Vancouver Native Health Society, as well as a co-chair of the Vancouver Aboriginal Council.

6652 MS RIVERS: (Native language spoken.)

6653 Greetings, everyone. My nickname is Sheryl Rivers, and my two ancestral names are Seemtenot (ph) and Mulnaydee (ph). I come from the Coast Salish territory here, along with our Chief from the Squamish Nation. I am a young entrepreneur -- I want to be young -- doing facilitating and cultural work.

6654 MS WHITE: You make me nervous, I might add.

6655 (Native language spoken.)

6656 In the highest of honours, I feel privileged to share time with you in the Coast Salish territory.

6657 My name is Kelly White. I am a broadcaster with CFRO radio. I produce public affairs programming for Kla-how-ya FM, and I am on the standing Board of Directors of Co-op Radio. I am pleased to be with you this evening.

6658 MR. KENNEDY: Commissioners, also, if I may, in the audience we have members of our community, members of our youth supporters, as well as our Aboriginal women's organizations in the community, and I would like to acknowledge and say thank you.

6659 Mark MacLeod is with us. He is AVR's Director of Licensing and Development, and has previously had the privilege of serving as head of national community radio associations in both Canada and the United States.

6660 John Matthews is our Director of Engineering.

6661 Bob Templeton is President of NewCap Broadcasting, Aboriginal Voices Radio's corporate associate.

6662 I would now like to ask Gary to begin our opening remarks.

6663 MR. FARMER: Bonjour. Good afternoon. Members of the Commission, we are pleased to be here in front of you once again. We appear today to talk about the need for a new radio service in Vancouver and to outline our proposal to meet that need.

6664 In our presentation we will highlight three themes. First, there are urgent needs in the Vancouver urban community, and there is tremendous community demand for an Aboriginal radio service.

6665 Second, we will highlight our carefully designed programming plans for a radio service to fulfil this community need.

6666 Third, we will describe our financial and human resources that we will use to launch our successful operation in Vancouver, including how we will develop local programming.

6667 With the Commission's approval, Vancouver will finally get a new Aboriginal voice radio service, with music, news and discussion, where Aboriginal voices can be heard 24 hours a day.

6668 MS WHITE: Members of the Commission, Vancouver is home to the third largest Aboriginal population, which we celebrate. The station we propose will be a first radio service for Vancouver's estimated 100,000 urban Aboriginal peoples. It will be the first connection for many non-native Vancouver listeners to Aboriginal language and culture, and an introduction to their native neighbours.

6669 Vancouver is a gathering place for Aboriginal people from many regions and backgrounds. Aboriginal people are a vital part of Vancouver city's cultural and civic life. The population of Vancouver is growing quickly and its Aboriginal community is growing even faster.

6670 The Aboriginal population in Vancouver, while young, like any urban youth culture, has tremendous energy.

6671 The Commission will see this in the Vancouver members of the AVR's presentation team and in next week's supporting interventions. Vancouver has a broad urban international mix, including the large Latin American Aboriginal population.

6672 Vancouver has many diverse cultural aspects, but Vancouver does not have an Aboriginal radio station.

6673 The limited native radio hours available for broadcast in Vancouver are almost entirely on the non-profit community radio station, Co-op Radio. I am a Board member at Co-op and a producer for Kla-how-ya FM, which airs on CFRO 102.7 FM.

6674 Unfortunately, a shortage of Aboriginal programming is common in major cities across our unceded territories. This situation exists despite the expressed interest of both native and non-native urban listeners. There are dozens of radio services received in the Vancouver market, yet none is dedicated to the reflection of the Aboriginal culture.

6675 Aboriginal talent, musicians and artists, are often effectively shut out of the Canadian airwaves. For AVR, the application that we envision here -- vision without action is merely a dream. Vision with action can change the world. Action without vision just passes the time.

6676 In the highest of honours, we invite you as the Commissioners of this seat to create AVR's partnership with broadcasting a reality. May the forces be with you in the highest of honours. The privilege is yours to support AVR's application, and I thank you in the highest of honours. (Native language spoken.)

6677 MS WARD: AVR has used market research, focus groups and broad community consultation to identify the expressed needs of urban Aboriginal communities. That research forms the foundation for our programming and business plans.

6678 AVR's market research in major cities across Canada has shown that 9 in 10 Canadians believe there is a need for a national Aboriginal radio service.

6679 In Vancouver 95 per cent of those surveyed agreed that there is a need for an Aboriginal radio station here, and they support the goals AVR has set out for its service.

6680 In keeping with our traditions, the proposed AVR service was presented to the Vancouver community to ensure it was wanted and to shape it to best fit the community needs in Vancouver. The positive response was overwhelming.

6681 Support has come from many individuals and organizations. Energetic support for a new Aboriginal radio service has swept through Vancouver area native communities. AVR's support in Vancouver is comprehensive and spirited, which bodes very well for the station's future.

6682 We have seen a wide variety of reports from various levels of government over the last three decades, including the comprehensive Royal Commission report. The reports have detailed the loss in Canadian culture due to the absence of Aboriginal media. The Royal Commission report also set out the expected benefits for both Aboriginal Canadians and the general public from the development of Aboriginal media.

6683 The Assembly of First Nations, the Congress of Aboriginal Peoples, and all of the major Aboriginal organizations support our effort to establish Aboriginal radio services in Canadian urban centres. The Government of Canada has prioritized improved communications as the key to the successful resolution of outstanding issues between native and non-native peoples.

6684 MR. DESMARAIS: The federal government, in partnership with Aboriginal leadership, has recognized the magnitude of the urban crisis here. A number of major joint initiatives are under way, with a focus on development and supporting healthier urban Aboriginal communities.

6685 Communication is a vital component of these new initiatives, and free and accessible radio is a key to restoring culture. Radio can support the good work of Aboriginal organizations in community health, education, language and culture.

6686 While Aboriginal people in Vancouver have expressed a strong interest in the new station, our market survey shows an overwhelmingly favourable response beyond the native community. Our programming includes and welcomes all people. It will be an offering to all the people of Vancouver.

6687 Think of AVR as a radio service "of" Aboriginal people, "for" all people.

6688 Members of the Commission, urban Aboriginal people are in the process of restoring and reclaiming our communities through personal and collective healing journeys. Radio respects oral culture and brings Aboriginal people into the discourse that will shape the future of all our lives. Radio also taps into an Aboriginal tradition of sharing the wealth of indigenous knowledge, culture and values.

6689 Approve our new radio service in Vancouver, and we can reach out to promote efforts in the struggle for healthier communities.

6690 Approve our new radio service in Vancouver, and we can build a better understanding between Aboriginal people and all Canadians.

6691 And, Commissioners, approve our new radio service in Vancouver, and we can promote positive Aboriginal role models, especially to our young people.


6692 MS BUFFALO: Commissioners, understand our national vision and you will understand the critical role our Vancouver radio service will play in it.

6693 We envision a full 24-hour national network. It will deliver national and local programming with an Aboriginal perspective. The national programming schedule will include contributions from Aboriginal people in Vancouver and across Canada.

6694 Vancouver-based programming will include locally produced segments, such as special event programming on National Aboriginal Day or Louis Riel Day being carried over the national network. This experience will cultivate the local talent and organization needed to develop consistent high quality, weekly and daily local Vancouver programming.

6695 We will aggressively introduce more local programming originating in Vancouver. However, this depends on how quickly resources become available. This cautious approach will ensure a financially stable vehicle for future local programming, while at the same time ensuring that local programming is under local control and responsive to the needs of its audience.

6696 We have promised only the level of local control programming that we are sure we can deliver from day one. Local programming will be geared up over the course of the licence period as resources become available, with a goal of 15 to 30 hours of local content by the end of the first licence period.

6697 Our Vancouver Media Advisory Circle will provide local editorial and programming guidance. This will ensure that our national programming is responsive to Vancouver needs.

6698 The resources that the community brings to bear will inform our plan. We do not underestimate the challenge of launching the national schedule. We want to take on that task first and launch an ambitious schedule of local programming next. We will deliver high quality programming by taking on national and local programming efforts, each in turn.

6699 How quickly will we introduce a greater local schedule? This will be a function of how much funding AVR will gain from NewCap application decisions in Calgary and Vancouver. Without the benefits that NewCap has offered, AVR will still work toward our plans for local programming roll-out and network expansion, but our growth in these areas may take longer.

6700 MS RIVERS: AVR programming will reflect the Aboriginal experience across Canada. Newscasts, public affairs and talk shows will address our needs, interests and concerns.

6701 Vancouver's Aboriginal community includes many languages and cultures. AVR programming will include many of Canada's 53 native languages, as well as French, Spanish and other languages.

6702 Many Aboriginal languages and cultures remain in great danger of extinction. AVR programming will support the preservation of Aboriginal languages in this emergency situation. Every program will support and promote Aboriginal cultures and traditions.

6703 The network programming schedule will include full Aboriginal news reports, national phone-in programs, a women's round table discussion, as well as focus programs on language, youth, elders and health.

6704 News assignments will focus on events which impact Canada's Aboriginal communities that have been overlooked and under-reported by other news sources.

6705 AVR will also air spoken word programming which features in-depth exploration of public or community current affairs.

6706 As resources become available, one to two Vancouver journalists or producers will be hired to staff a local news bureau, which will provide enhanced local coverage.

6707 MS REECE: Members of the Commission, AVR music programming will feature a mix of primarily Canadian and world Aboriginal artists in a broad range of musical styles. Program hosts will provide informed commentary, information on the artists presented, and a variety of educational and entertaining Canadian Aboriginal perspectives on issues of the day.

6708 While the new radio service will bring an Aboriginal world of programming to Vancouver, the vibrant local community in Vancouver will make vital contributions to the programming service they hear.

6709 Open-line programs will include the participation of Vancouver listeners.

6710 Music requests will allow listeners interactivity by telephone or the Internet.

6711 News reports, interviews and other segments from or about Vancouver will allow elders and youth, and women and men of Vancouver's various nations and cultures to share their voices.

6712 This new national programming perspective will allow current events and cultural affairs taking place in other regions of the country to be better understood in Vancouver without the filter of mainstream media.

6713 Of course, the new service will also provide the opportunity for Vancouver issues to be aired across the country.

6714 I am a broadcaster and radio programmer, and a former Board member of Vancouver Co-op Radio. It is the only outlet available to local native people, and it is all done by loving volunteer labour.

6715 I see this new radio service as a way to participate in the media. We have many experienced broadcasters and programmers already here, and a wealth of talent among our young people. We have fostered and encouraged the involvement of youth in our local programs at Co-op Radio, so we are poised and ready to take part in this new radio service.

6716 MR. KENNEDY: Members of the Commission, our market research has demonstrated demand in Vancouver for our proposed service. We took a very conservative approach in using this demand to forecast how much national advertising revenue adding Vancouver to the existing network could generate. Our revenue projections far exceed the modest operating costs.

6717 A network consisting of at least Toronto and Vancouver stations will be on a sound financial footing, with great potential advertising revenue growth and less reliance on program underwriting and fundraising.

6718 We have strong support in Vancouver for a pre-launch campaign to offset all of the station's capital and start-up costs. These costs total less than a quarter of our current $1 million reserve fund, which was created to cover unforeseen shortfalls in funding AVR's development.

6719 The Vancouver service is not expensive to establish and operate because we plan to introduce local programming only later, after network revenues have expanded and stabilized.

6720 Members of the Commission, AVR has a solid business plan and the financial and people resources to back it up. AVR is continuing to expand its Board and recruit additional advisors to have the widest possible depth and breadth of expertise.

6721 Our legal counsel, Aird and Berlis, and our accounting firm, KPMG, have specialized experience in broadcasting and Aboriginal business issues. Our directors and advisory circles come from all across Canada and represent years of expertise in all areas of broadcasting.

6722 In addition to these resources, AVR seeks the spiritual guidance of our elders, and the approval of all of our communities.

6723 The AVR radio team has produced and distributed radio shows to native stations and networks across North America. We have produced concerts, an arts festival, webcasts, and 24-hour a day special event broadcasting. Three years of outreach to the community have shaped our vision for an Aboriginal radio service.

6724 MS PIERRE: The Commission awarded AVR an FM radio licence in Toronto earlier this year. The Toronto service is proposed to be the flagship station for the Aboriginal Voices Radio Network. AVR's application for the network licence was a non-appearing item at the Calgary hearing earlier this month. AVR is awaiting the decision on an application in Calgary for a local service of the network, similar to our proposal for Vancouver.

6725 This Vancouver application represents the next step in AVR's plan to spearhead the rapid development of Aboriginal broadcasting in Canada, especially in urban centres in southern Canada where Aboriginal voices are seldom heard on the airwaves.

6726 Despite years of supportive CRTC policies, this deplorable situation exists in contrast to the clearly stated objectives of the Broadcasting Act.

6727 Just as the arrival of the AVRN service in Vancouver will greatly benefit Vancouver listeners, the launch of the Vancouver service will play a key role in the accelerated development of the national Aboriginal radio service right across Canada.

6728 AVRN will not duplicate existing Aboriginal or non-Aboriginal services, but rather will provide a supplementary and supporting service, complementing and building on radio services which presently exist in the Canadian broadcasting system. This will provide support for emerging native broadcasters, particularly those who are ambitious to provide a full schedule of native programming but are simply unable to secure the necessary resources.

6729 AVRN will work closely and share programming with these existing native broadcasters, including the various native radio networks and societies which operate in northern and rural Canada, as well as other Aboriginal broadcasters who produce programming for university-based and community radio stations.

6730 MS WARD: Commissioners, Vancouver needs a new Aboriginal radio voice.

6731 We need this voice to overcome the ignorance of our history.

6732 We need this voice to offer positive role models and to balance negative media stereotypes.

6733 We need this voice to build greater understanding between Aboriginal people and other Canadians.

6734 And, most importantly, we need this voice in the struggle for healthy urban communities.

6735 Members of the Commission, you finally have the opportunity to license a new and unique Aboriginal radio station in Vancouver. Meegwich et merci.

6736 MR. FARMER: We have highlighted seven key components of our plan for this programming service:

6737 One, to be the first Vancouver outlet for the broad everyday expression of Aboriginal voices.

6738 Two, to offer a media venue where native and non-native Canadians in Vancouver can speak as neighbours.

6739 Three, to be an inclusive radio service for all community voices: women and men, elders and youth.

6740 Four, to be a means of support for the promotion of Aboriginal language and culture.

6741 Five, to provide exposure and promotion for Aboriginal artists and entrepreneurs in Vancouver.

6742 Six, to operate with respect for the principles of environmental sustainability.

6743 Seven, to remain a native controlled and operated media not dependent on government.

6744 MS BUFFALO: Members of the Commission, we have provided all of the necessary assurance which you need to make a decision in this application process to license Vancouver's first Aboriginal radio station.

6745 While it is a great loss to the community that no native radio service has existed in Vancouver before, it is necessary to finally license this new service now. There may not be another opportunity.

6746 MR. KENNEDY: Commissioners, we have clearly identified demand in Vancouver for a new urban Aboriginal service, and we have carefully shaped our programming service to meet this demand.

6747 We have found a passion amongst Aboriginal people in Vancouver to share their wealth of indigenous knowledge, culture and positive values, yet there is no full-time Vancouver radio service upon which we might hear their voices.

6748 We have proposed a sustainable business plan that includes sufficient capital funding, and we have put together an experienced, confident and knowledgeable team.

6749 We have reached the moment where we can include a Vancouver Aboriginal radio voice in the Canadian broadcast system. All of the elements are together.

6750 Commission Members, the time has come for you to approve an Aboriginal radio voice for Vancouver.

6751 Thank you, Commissioners. We are available to answer your questions.

6752 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I will turn to Commissioner Cardozo to question you.

6753 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you, Madam Chair.

6754 First, let me say to Chief Williams and Sheryl Rivers that I want to thank you on our behalf for your hospitality as we come to your territory to conduct our deliberations.

6755 This is, indeed, one of the most beautiful territories in the country, and it explains, along with your hospitality, why your immigration policy of the last few centuries has been so successful. And, of course, it has been generous.

6756 I am struck by the comment by Mr. Desmarais that it is only now that we turn to Aboriginal radio, which, as you say, radio respects our culture -- our oral culture.

6757 What I will do is outline the areas that I would like to cover with you this afternoon, outline a few general comments, and then we will go through the questions.

6758 We will talk about the nature of the service, local programming issues, the Commission's native broadcasting policy, and your relationship with existing Aboriginal broadcasters.

6759 Then I would like to talk about advertising, your business plan and audience projections. And then the last issue will be technical and frequency issues.

6760 After that I will ask you to summarize.

6761 Let me make a few general comments first. As you are probably aware, at a hearing, once we get to the questioning, we usually do the questioning on the issues where we need more clarification. If there are issues that I don't discuss in detail, it is not that those are not areas of interest; it is just an indication that you have covered the area very well. And you probably will find that I won't be focusing a lot on the need for Aboriginal radio, because I think, through your application and today, all of you have articulated the need very, very well.

6762 It will come up through the process, but I am fully aware of the need that you have outlined and the passion with which you believe that, and if I don't give you a chance to state that again it is not because I haven't paid attention to that issue.

6763 Second, this is a competitive process. There is another applicant who is looking at the frequency. So that is an issue that the Commission has to keep in mind.

6764 Third, feel free to correct me and to educate me, especially when it comes to Aboriginal issues and perspectives. One likes to think that one knows a lot, but at hearings we often find that we don't, and we learn a lot. So feel free to educate and correct me on Aboriginal issues. I would be a little more cautious when it comes to broadcasting or regulatory issues, unless you are sure of yourself.

6765 I say that in jest.

6766 The issue of licensing NewCap, which has an application in this hearing, is a separate issue. I am well aware of the connection between their application and your application. And that's fine. It is a creative approach. But we are really bound to consider the two applications separately.

6767 I have one other general comment to make, and that is that we are really, today, focusing on the Vancouver application. As was mentioned earlier, the network application was considered at the Calgary hearing a few weeks ago, and it will be that panel which will rule on that. It is sort of fruitless for you to try to argue that application, or defend it or promote it at this point, because it won't be part of that record. Although, having said that, the line is blurred. There are a lot of issues in this application that relate to the network. So when we are talking about the network, it will need to be in relation to the Vancouver part of the network.

6768 I just want to say that I understand the connection, but we need to keep to the Vancouver part of it.

6769 Let me start by asking about the AFN resolution that was submitted as part of the record.

6770 I don't know who would like to answer this, but I just wanted from you a sense of whether you read it as a specific or a general resolution, inasmuch as it has three parts to it, in terms of what AFN has resolved. One is that they support an Aboriginal effort to establish a radio service in Toronto. Been there; done that.

6771 Then they support the effort to establish an Aboriginal radio service in other Canadian urban centres, which is the application today.

6772 And the third is that they asked the Chiefs Committee on Communications to support the development of a native radio broadcasting network.

6773 Is it your understanding that in doing this they are supporting AVR in particular, or the need in a general sense?


6774 MR. KENNEDY: I could, if I may, respond to that, Commissioner.

6775 I had the privilege of appearing at the confederacy of nations, the AFN. When this resolution was presented I was asked to speak to it, and I had the honour of doing that.

6776 My Chief, Harry Docksteder (ph), from the Oneida Nation of the Thames, actually put the resolution forward on our behalf. Chief Lydia Wheatson (ph) of the Cowichan Nation, here in British Columbia, seconded that motion.

6777 I was presenting the entire picture of what our plan was. I laid out as clearly as I could, in the short time that I had, AVR's network plan, as well as the plan to roll out in the communities.

6778 It was my understanding that the Chiefs' support was based on the information they received, which was based on our presentation to the Commission and information that we have given to you.

6779 I hope I have answered your question.

6780 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Yes. Do you know what the status is, in terms of the Chiefs Committee on Communications addressing the issue?

6781 Is there a subsequent step that will happen?

6782 MR. KENNEDY: I don't speak on behalf of our Chiefs.

6783 I don't know whether Chief would like to speak to it, but my understanding is that it is a working committee, as are all of the committees that the AFN has, and it is an ongoing committee. We can certainly undertake to find more information and provide that to the Commission, if that would be useful.

6784 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And is it your understanding under the new National Chief, Matthew Coon Come, that the support continues for this approach?

6785 MR. KENNEDY: It is our understanding.

6786 MR. FARMER: Chief Bill Williams has an answer.

6787 CHIEF WILLIAMS: Yes, thank you.

6788 The Chiefs Committee is an ongoing committee that deals with communications, and there are representatives from right across Canada who want to ensure that the correct information is given from the Aboriginal point of view on what we are doing and who we are as a people. And the committee is, as I said, ongoing, so no matter which National Chief is there -- and at this point in time it is Chief Matthew Coon Come -- the mandate is ongoing.

6789 MR. FARMER: Marilyn Buffalo, as well, has just met with Chief Matthew Coon Come.


6791 MS BUFFALO: Thank you.

6792 I have had the privilege of discussing this matter specifically with National Chief Matthew Coon Come, and he is in full support of this initiative.

6793 I had the privilege of meeting him in Calgary, before the Calgary application, and he is also -- a letter is en route to the minister responsible in support of this application here in Vancouver, as well.

6794 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Perhaps I can ask you, are other organizations, like NWAC and -- I think you mentioned the Congress of Aboriginal Peoples -- other organizations have backed this process?

6795 MS BUFFALO: Yes. I personally have met with these organizations, and they are familiar with it and support it.

6796 The Congress of Aboriginal People -- Chief Dwight Dorey (ph) has filed a letter in support of this initiative. It is, of course, the organization that represents the off-reserve and urban issues in Canada.

6797 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Let me ask you why you think now is the time for an Aboriginal station in Vancouver; not so much as why not, which one might ask. It may be obvious, but why now? Why hasn't it been before?

6798 MR. FARMER: Maybe I could refer to some of the local participants here.

6799 Cleo...?

6800 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I am wondering why you feel that now is a good time for this station and why there hasn't been an application in the past.

6801 MS REECE: I think the organizers probably could answer the question of why there hasn't been one in the past.

6802 From my personal experience, if I look at my involvement with our Aboriginal Film and Video Festival, why has there not been an Aboriginal Film and Video Festival here in Vancouver in the past? Why is there not an Aboriginal news station here?

6803 All of these questions are things that we ourselves ask, but mainly it comes down to a lack of resources. And this is what we are asking for now. We feel that we are ready and willing to step into this role, as media broadcasters throughout Canada, instead of just in our little local areas.

6804 There have been organizations and people working on a national level for many years, and I think their hard work has paid off. We are seeing now that we are able to communicate effectively across Canada and throughout the nations.

6805 MR. FARMER: If I could add to that, I believe historically that native people in Canada have really felt out of touch with things that go on in Canada, and really didn't feel involved enough to actually ask for a licence. I don't think native people actually believed that they had the right to participate in this process. Until we began to participate two or three years ago, there was very few -- outside of the northern involvement, of course, and that early stage. But none of them had gone through a licensing process. It was more of a decision on behalf of the government to empower the north with broadcast; it wasn't necessarily the people's decision.

6806 I think it is just now that we are realizing that we can participate in this process, and we need the essence of what radio broadcasting can do in our communities to move ahead in a good way with Canada.

6807 I am sure that Kelly would have some comments, as well.

6808 MS WHITE: I haven't been at the CRTC, so I am nervous.

6809 THE CHAIRPERSON: Don't worry, we are too.

--- Laughter / Rires

6810 MS WHITE: Wow! Congratulations. I can survive myself, I hope. I hope you can survive, yourselves, too.

6811 Why now? Having had the opportunity to present to parliamentary proceedings for 20 years, as well as having had the privilege to present to the World Assembly at the United Nations since 1988, and Vancouver being the next international community, it is extremely important and crucial for us to platform a partnership with the endeavours of communications, so that we can develop a better partnership in regard to social and economic endeavours, and respects, of course, for communications to be provided.

6812 On many occasions in the local community, even our neighbours, CEOs and organizations that provide their business in the Vancouver area from overseas, as well as within the continent, ask: Where are the First Nations? Where do we contact the First Nations? Oh, are there First Nations here?

6813 So in the highest of honours, partnership development with Canadian content with the First Nations provides a great opportunity for us to partnership this broadcast in the best and the highest of quality for the creation of a better road for all of the non-native partners that we have in our very richly diverse city here. To celebrate this radio broadcast would be a crucial way to proceed with the cleaning of the umbilical cord for communications from indigenous peoples to the mainstream.

6814 I hope that satisfies your question.

6815 MR. KENNEDY: Commissioner, I would also like to, if I may, quickly --

6816 One of the events that is happening in Canada, as you know, is that we are finding our voice as urban Aboriginal people.

6817 You have asked: Why now? I think the "Why now" is focused on the south, is focused on the cities, and is focused on urban areas. Many of the people who have joined us today, not only at the tables but in the audience, are urban Aboriginal people, and the issues are snowballing. They are exploding.

6818 Joy and Lou Desmarais represent health concerns in the Downtown Eastside and in one of the large Aboriginal communities.

6819 One of the reasons is because the urban Aboriginal people are finding their voice, and radio is a natural extension of that.


6820 MR. FARMER: Chief Bill Williams.

6821 CHIEF WILLIAMS: Thank you.

6822 There are two specific reasons why now. One is economics. It is high time that Aboriginal people stepped forward and stepped out of the fiduciary responsibility of the Government of Canada. This will give us the opportunity to take that one step, to be able to show to the general population that we not only have the right, but we have the capacity, we have the opportunity, and we also have the people who are trained and able to do it today.

6823 The other reason, unfortunately, is the population. I say unfortunately because the Aboriginal population is moving away from the reserve-based system, because the reserve-based system cannot house all of the members of our community in the reserve-based community.

6824 The good thing about it is, once they do come to the urban areas, such as Vancouver, which is the third largest city in Canada, this population base does give rise to the opportunity for more of our members of our community to attend the school system and get themselves upgraded for better opportunities than existed on the reserve.

6825 MR. FARMER: Marilyn Buffalo.

6826 MS BUFFALO: Thank you.

6827 Commissioners, I am 50 years old now. My grandson is going on 13 years old. In five or six years I could be a great-grandmother. That is the nature of our community and our lifestyle. My mother is only 70 years old.

6828 Our youth need to get up to speed with the rest of the world.

6829 When I started working in community development in northern Alberta and the Northwest Territories 30 years ago as political staff for Chiefs, we had telexes and we thought we were doing great.

6830 Our people at that time were not as well organized as they are today. Now we see people walking down the streets of Vancouver with cellphones, each one of them talking to other people worldwide, and we have the Internet. We have fax machines. We are now getting up to speed. Our children are very computer literate. Whereas we are not as literate in our generation. We never had access to those types of communications.

6831 About a month or two ago there was approval to have a permanent Forum on Indigenous Issues at the United Nations. How many of our people across Canada know that forum actually exists?

6832 It took us 30 years to lobby for that forum, and we now finally have it.

6833 Many of the elders who pushed to have that at the UN are not even alive today to celebrate.

6834 So it is time that we use radio as a tool to teach, and to combat racism, because we raise our children in this urban environment and it is very dangerous. In order for us to teach and educate non-Aboriginal people, we need radio as a tool.

6835 It is a start. Thank you.

6836 MR. FARMER: Lou Desmarais.

6837 MR. DESMARAIS: Thank you.

6838 I have a brief comment. In my 20 years or so of working as a professional person on behalf of my people in a leadership role with service organizations, it has been my experience, sir, that we only hear from mainstream media people when it is licence renewal time, unless there is some other extreme controversy where they can't not talk to us.

6839 In between those times they either misrepresent us or, largely, ignore us.

6840 So I think what this opportunity gives us is a chance to get away from that. Thank you very much.

6841 MR. FARMER: Sheryl has a comment.

6842 MS RIVERS: I would like to speak on the importance of having this today as a cultural aspect. We have always had the gift of oral tradition, handing down stories from generation to generation, and with this being able to be broadcast over the radio --

6843 In our own communities we are losing a lot of our knowledge. Our elders are all passing on. With the importance of the radio, we would be able to carry that forward and continue that storytelling in today's modern ways and means.

6844 It would also benefit all of the people who have moved down into the urban city of Vancouver from many different nations, not only in B.C., but all over Canada. This would be a way where they could still practise and listen to some of their own songs, dances, stories and traditions, and still practise their culture in a way that they are not having to be at home in their own communities.

6845 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you for that.

6846 Before I go to the next question, Ms Kelly White, you have mentioned that this is the first hearing you have been to, and I want to explain to you and others who come to a hearing for the first time that from here on the questions get a little more technical and maybe more boring, but the reason we need to go through that is because, at the end of the day, there are scarce frequencies, people compete for them, and our job is to make sure that the people who are accorded the licence have a good business plan, are going to serve people, are responding to a need, and will stave the course for the time they are licensed.

6847 We do this with all of the applicants. Some people think we do this just to bore them to tears, but we actually have fun doing this, I assure you.

6848 I don't know whether I should direct most of my questions to Mr. Farmer or Mr. Kennedy. I will just ask them, and you can choose who answers.

6849 Do you see this as a Vancouver station or a Toronto station?

6850 MR. KENNEDY: We are creating the Aboriginal Voices Radio Network. We have a Toronto licence now, which would be the flagship to kickstart the network. But, in fact, we see the signal that would provide a radio service here in Vancouver, in the end, of course, would be a more comprehensive Vancouver station than it would be in the first case.

6851 Local programming: Of course, we intend to have an aggressive plan toward local programming.

6852 In fact, we are creating an Aboriginal Voices Radio Network first, seeking your approval for licences in the cities so that we can have that network from coast to coast to coast.

6853 But, in fact, the programming that comes out of here will be Vancouver programming, combined with what we produce in Toronto.

6854 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: As I understand it, it will be largely a repeater, or only a repeater.

6855 MR. KENNEDY: In the beginning it will be a repeater. Our long-term plan is that within the term of the licence we intend to take, as I said, an aggressive approach to having local programming, depending on resources of course. That is a key thing that we need to address. But we believe that the target is, within the licence period, to be pretty much a Vancouver radio station, in terms of morning drive and afternoon drive, in those traditional times. That is the target we have within the licence period.

6856 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: That is in the long run; right?

6857 MR. KENNEDY: Reality dictates that it is in the long run.

6858 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Let's just take the first year. You are planning in Toronto to be launched sometime next year?

6859 MR. KENNEDY: Within the time that you have allotted to us.

6860 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Is that June of next year?

6861 MR. FARMER: It is June 2001, yes.

6862 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And if you were to get the licence here and launch, say, in the fall, or at about the same time, in that first year it would be a Toronto signal that would be repeated here; correct?

6863 MR. FARMER: That's correct, yes. Except for the original programming that we are promising, yes.

6864 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. I will come to that in a second.

6865 Would it be the same time? If you are doing "drive radio" in Toronto, you would have to be up at three in the morning to listen to "drive radio" here.

6866 Would there be one feed, or would it be staggered across time zones? Would it be repeated across time zones, or delayed repeated?

6867 MR. KENNEDY: All of those are options, Commissioner. Technology allows us today to do a number of things that we haven't been able to do in radio. It is obviously quite the challenge to anyone who is operating a network, whether it is CBC or others who have had that in the past.

6868 We obviously want to provide a service to the audience, so we are looking at those options.

6869 We do have the option of going -- say, for example, that we are doing a six to nine traditional drive-time show. Then, of course, it would be three to six in Vancouver.

6870 The other option is, of course, to do a staggered process to relate to the east coast, which is advanced, and to do the reverse stagger in terms of the west coast.

6871 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So technologically it is simple enough to run your six to nine Toronto at six to nine in Vancouver.

6872 MR. KENNEDY: Yes.

6873 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: You wouldn't have to run it at the same --

6874 MR. KENNEDY: Technologically, the other challenge you face, of course, is updating. And of course the news part of it would have to be timely and relevant, and of course we would have an actual presence here in B.C. to do that. It would probably mean that I would have to get up at three in the morning, but that would be okay.

6875 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Mr. Farmer, in terms of local programming in the first year, what would be the local component? The Vancouver component.

6876 MR. FARMER: The Vancouver component consists of the commitment we have made in the application, which is about two hours and fifty-five minutes per week.

6877 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Is that the sort of minute and a half that is repeated?

6878 MR. FARMER: Yes. I think it is a 12 or 15-minute segment that is repeated several times.

6879 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Would that get repeated only here in Vancouver?

6880 Would that be aired only in Vancouver, or wherever AVR is?

6881 MR. FARMER: It would be repeated wherever AVR is, of course, and it wouldn't be an only-Vancouver service.

6882 MR. KENNEDY: There is another option, as well, Commissioner. It would be my understanding that, in fact, the technology would allow us in our clock to program that Vancouver local commitment at the same time we are programming a comparable Toronto commitment, because of its events and calendar nature.

6883 Mind you, some of the materials out of the Vancouver one would be of interest to Toronto, but I don't believe it would be parallel.

6884 MR. FARMER: The thing I might mention, just as an aside, is that right now I am producing a television show that has a host who is from British Columbia, and we are producing it out of the Toronto market. Our communities are so intertwined that half of the community in Toronto is from British Columbia and half of the community here in Vancouver is from Toronto. We are really quite related no matter where we are in this country, and I don't think it is going to be an issue about what is Toronto, or what is Vancouver, or what is Calgary. I think it is our community, and we are very close. Whether we are on one side of the country or not, we are very close.

6885 There is no system -- no people in this country who have been as networked as indigenous people, whether through the friendships in our system or through the Assembly of First Nations or through the Métis organizations that are represented right across this country.

6886 We have had a long time to dwell on networking. We are very good at it. These issues around when it is going to play, and this and that, I think are really irrelevant in the end, but I understand your concern.

6887 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: But at the same time Aboriginal peoples have had very, very long histories in different regions of the country, and I am wondering to what extent the people in this part will feel that they are getting enough information that is really about their history, their heritage, and the issues that are developing here.

6888 MR. FARMER: You have to understand the indigenous community -- or the Aboriginal community. They won't drop a licence here, and this community would not allow us to not give the kind of information that they need, with the system that we have in place, with the advisory circles based in Vancouver. They are going to put a lot of pressure on us to make sure that they get their quality and the amount of programming that is going to be of interest to them.

6889 So I don't think that with the advisory circle system it is going to be an issue at all, because they are going to pressure us to make sure that we get the programming that they need on the air.

6890 I know we will react to that, because Vancouver and Toronto are extremely -- especially the native communities -- are extremely well linked. So I don't find that to be an issue.

6891 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Were you about to add something?

6892 MR. MacLEOD: Yes. Commissioner Cardozo, I would like to offer a comment.

6893 I think it is important that we realize that when we talk about local programming in the context of the two and a half hours, it has to do with the CRTC's definition of what qualifies as local programming and what doesn't quality.

6894 In fact, the service that will be available, that will be the identical service. Both Toronto and Vancouver will have programming from Vancouver and programming from Toronto, as well as programming from New Brunswick and from Nova Scotia. So the same programming will be heard in both markets, but it won't be as much of a Toronto service being heard in Vancouver as perhaps you might be led to believe by thinking that the local programming is only two and a half hours.

6895 It so happens that the two and a half hours we are talking about is programming that will be heard in Vancouver only, not in Toronto. That is the only portion of the programming that we are committing in our licence to be different from one market to the other.

6896 It has to do with, when we filled in the application, we put in two and a half hours of local programming, because it is the only thing that qualified as local.

6897 But, clearly, there will be local Vancouver programming that is heard in Toronto and in Vancouver.


6898 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And will somebody or some mechanism be flicking a switch so that that local two and a half hours is only aired in Vancouver, and then Toronto will have its local at that same time, and Eskasoni, down the road, would have its own?

6899 MR. MacLEOD: Yes. Technically that is a simple matter. As we mentioned in our presentation -- and I think it is clear in our application -- the local content will include open line programs, will include a musical request, will include news reports arising out of Vancouver, will include discussions that phone participants in Vancouver will be involved in, round table discussions.

6900 There will be a tremendous amount of participation from Vancouver in this programming service. It simply will be the same service heard in both markets, and ultimately the production happens in Toronto at a centre and is put up and made available to anybody who wants to pick up that signal.

6901 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: How would the phone-in show work?

6902 Because that wouldn't be locally based, would it? Would it be a national phone-in?

6903 MR. MacLEOD: Excuse me. Could you repeat the question, please?

6904 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: The phone-in show that you have talked about, would there be a local one in Vancouver, or are you talking about a national phone-in show?

6905 MR. MacLEOD: No, this would be a national phone-in show. Again, as we pointed out at the hearing in Calgary, we have had a great deal of interest in our national service, once it is licensed, to be carried in Nova Scotia, New Brunswick -- wherever existing native or other broadcasters want to carry portions of the programming.

6906 So wherever the signal is heard, the 800 number will be given out and people will be phoning in.

6907 So, in a sense, we are not certain how widely across Canada, outside our own licensed stations, this program will be heard, but we have a tremendous --

6908 As you might imagine -- I mean it is intuitive -- there would be tremendous interest in that type of a show by any existing native broadcaster. To tie into a national phone-in show, that would be of great interest, of course.

6909 But, I think, to specifically answer your question, there will simply be one 800 number that anybody will phone from anywhere.

6910 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: One of the reasons we have this requirement for local programming is that if a broadcaster is deemed to be a local broadcaster --

6911 Let me put it the other way around. If a broadcaster wants to be able to sell advertising in a market, they ought to return something to that market, namely, programming from that market, so that market feels a connection to that station. That is one of the main reasons we are focusing on the issue of local.

6912 Do you see that happening? Does that local market, in this case Vancouver, get a return in programming for the advertising that you can --

6913 MR. MacLEOD: The traditional model that the Commission uses or that the broadcast industry uses -- that commercial broadcasters use -- doesn't really apply in this case. We are not planning on doing any local advertising, for one thing.

6914 But again, in a sense, this whole enterprise, every minute, is a public service enterprise. It is not like there are portions of the programming that we are putting aside so that then we can carry out our commercial endeavours in the other hours; the whole thing is a public service, non-profit.

6915 I think we promised in our application that at such time as we thought that local advertising would be an important function of our business plan, we would come back to the Commission and ask for approval for that. But right now our advertising revenues are based upon local sales in Toronto, and national ads on top of that that would be heard on the network.

6916 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Then having a local presence helps in terms of being able to sell national sales. But if you were only based in Toronto, you wouldn't be able to make the case for national ad sales.

6917 MR. MacLEOD: It is entirely possible, and we hope that companies based in Vancouver would advertise on the network, but it will not be a local sale. We will be asking them to advertise on a national Aboriginal radio service. It is not our intention to have local sales people selling in local markets at this time.

6918 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Mr. Farmer, the advertising issue aside, do you feel that in the case of this application we shouldn't be too obsessed about local presence?

6919 We have rules and regulations, and every day of the week people ask us for exceptions. I am not saying I am granting you one, but I am just saying --

6920 It sounds like you feel that we haven't quite got it right when it comes to Aboriginal radio, that local programming isn't as important as it might be in other cases.

6921 MR. FARMER: No. I just think that our national focus on the programming based out of Toronto is going to benefit, and in terms of a national talk-radio program, it is going to have participation from everyone who is listening to the signal, which would include Vancouver, Toronto, New Brunswick, and wherever else our signal is accepted. And through the Internet it is going to be into areas that we don't even know about.

6922 So in terms of the committed local programming of two and a half hours of original programming that is only for the Vancouver market, yes, of course that is important, and I assure you that we will participate at every level to ensure as much local programming as we possibly can.

6923 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. You are planning to have a news bureau in Vancouver by June of 2001. If you were to be licensed, would you accept a condition of licence to deliver that?

6924 MR. KENNEDY: Yes.

6925 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Have you got staff or volunteers?

6926 How would this local news bureau run? Would you have staff or volunteers, or both?

6927 MR. KENNEDY: Yes, we would have both.

6928 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And have you got people lined up as yet?

6929 It is kind of early for 2003, but --

6930 MR. KENNEDY: We know that the talent pool is here.

6931 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And a Vancouver studio. Do you have plans for a Vancouver studio, where you would do programming other than news?

6932 MR. KENNEDY: Yes, we do.

6933 MR. MacLEOD: Commissioner Cardozo, if I could add a comment, because I think it is important that we realize that there are not applications that appear before the Commission for national radio networks like the one that has been proposed, and that the Commission has yet to decide on, nor the type of local market licence which is being requested in the Vancouver market by our application.

6934 We realize that you are asked for exceptions on a regular basis. I think that this is an exceptional licence application, based on a great idea and on an excellent business plan. It is applied for through the CRTC's policies and commissions, using the CRTC's application forms, but we realize that there are some angles and edges that don't fit exactly to the way you are used to receiving applications. We trust that whatever consideration you make on your end for that, we have had to mould our application to try to fit the process as well.

6935 It is unusual. In this country we have had very few radio networks that have come forward, so we hope that you appreciate the exceptional nature of this application.

6936 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. Could you verify the languages that you will be using?

6937 I understand it will be 94 per cent English, 2 per cent French, 2 per cent Spanish, and 2 per cent Aboriginal languages. Which Aboriginal languages are you looking at? And would the local portion be in Aboriginal languages that are relevant to the Vancouver area, or British Columbia?

6938 MR. KENNEDY: Local programming will, of course, have local Aboriginal language references, yes.

6939 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Do you have any thought about which languages you would be adding to your roster from the Toronto --

6940 MR. FARMER: It will depend, of course, on the person who is operating the board and what languages they are familiar with.

6941 If they are from the Qualuit (ph), then the Qualuit language will come incidentally through their broadcast. If they are an Ojibwa speaker, then we expect the Ojibwa language, and there are Ojibwa people across the nation. It will be relevant depending on the experience of the broadcaster.

6942 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Maybe you could educate me as to what the major Aboriginal languages are that are relevant more to this area.

6943 CHIEF WILLIAMS: We have 23 separate and distinct languages in British Columbia, and the type of language would be the Haida-Gwai, Kwagulth, Titskan, Carrier, T'suweten, Coast Salish -- there are a varied number. As I say, there are 23 separate and distinct languages in B.C. alone, of the 53.

6944 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Does anybody want to add any others?

6945 MS REECE: I just wanted to add that there is presently an Aboriginal language program being broadcast at Co-op Radio that is on every week. It is called "The Speaker" and it does broadcast in Hulkameelam (ph), which is a Coast Salish language.

6946 There is a huge population of Cree people from all across Canada who live here who would be very interested in Cree-language programming.

6947 There is a large population of Dene people, of Ojibwa people, and various communities from everywhere, all across B.C.

6948 There is a large Haida population, there is a Tsimshian population, and they have their gatherings throughout the year, and they would absolutely be happy to have a venue to learn and to teach their language.

6949 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: As you probably know, our native broadcasting policy requires that there be board membership of the native population of the regions served. Does your board currently include any people from this territory?

6950 MR. KENNEDY: It currently includes myself. I am a visitor to the territory, but I have lived here for ten years and consider myself to be a member of the Aboriginal community here. So there is board representation at the moment.

6951 But we will meet, of course, the policy which states the regional representation where you are licensed. We will meet that obligation.

6952 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: How do you pick the members for the advisory circle?

6953 MR. KENNEDY: In fact, the community is more likely the process to pick them, but we are working with each community.

6954 I will give you an example, if I may, in Vancouver. There are the First Nations, of course, including Chief Williams, with whom we have had discussions; the Vancouver Aboriginal Council, in terms of the urban Aboriginal. There are the United Native Nations and the Métis. There is the Union of B.C. Indian Chiefs, the Summit. All of the organizations -- and I have named just a few -- have processes in place in terms of communication and consultation.

6955 It is another form of networking that we are involved with, but the advisory circle will be for editorial programming, organizational --

6956 We are honoured to have Chief Williams at our table today for a number of reasons: to respect him, of course, in his territory, but because of his business acumen, because of the communications barriers that his nation alone has broken through.

6957 The advisory circle will come from the expertise that is in the community.

6958 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I would like to turn to the issue of your working relationship with existing native broadcasters. It is an issue that you have talked about in your network application, and it applies here too.

6959 I want to refer to one intervention which was opposing your application. They are not appearing, so I thought I would like to raise it now and ask you about it. You can respond now, but you also have the time to think about it and respond in the rebuttal stage if there is anything more you would like to say.

6960 Essentially, this is a letter from Canada's first native radio, which is CFNR, signed by Clarence Martin. It is dated October 24.

6961 Are you familiar with the letter?

6962 MR. KENNEDY: Yes, Commissioner.

6963 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Let me just go through a couple of the things they have said and get your response.

6964 One of the reasons they are opposing it is that they feel there isn't enough of a working relationship with Northern Native Broadcasting, of which, I understand, there are two stations and several repeaters in the province.

6965 What is your response to their view?

6966 MR. KENNEDY: First, I would like to say that I recognize and honour the work of Clarence and all of those who have gone before him to establish Northern Native Broadcasting.

6967 As a little quick background, Commissioner, I have had the privilege of serving on behalf of the Government of Canada on the federal liaison team that worked with Northern Native Broadcasting, so I know the hard work that has gone into it and I respect the work that they do, and the service, which is, I believe, in in excess of 50 communities in the north.

6968 The operative word there, of course, is "Northern" Native Broadcasting.

6969 It is our intention -- and I have had a discussion recently with Mr. Martin, as has Marilyn. We both have spoken with Clarence about the relationship building issue that he raised, and it is our intention to continue to have discussions with Northern Native Broadcasting, because whatever we do can only enhance what he is doing. But there is a difference.

6970 What we are doing here is for the people who are in this room today, who are supporting us here: the urban Aboriginal people, specifically in the south, who I believe are neglected and who certainly are under-served by the established organizations, with respect.

6971 I believe that by having this infrastructure and radio in the south, working with our brothers and sisters in those other organizations, we are going to have a powerful network.

6972 As an example, at this table you will see the representatives of local Aboriginal radio: Billie and Kelly --

6973 I am trying to keep track of --

6974 MS WHITE: Women.

6975 MS REECE: Cleo.

6976 MR. KENNEDY: You raise that, and I am glad, Commissioner, that you raised it. Local Aboriginal radio is driven by women -- our Aboriginal women. We want to reflect that here.

6977 We also want to reflect that we have a relationship with the community.

6978 Aboriginal Voices has outreach. That is one of the key things we are doing, and if I may share with you --

6979 We are in Vancouver and we are here for a licence, but Aboriginal Voices Radio, in two situations -- when we were in Calgary and when we were here in B.C. we were approached by communities outside, in this case the Saulteaux Nation, which is in the far north, asking for some assistance, because they are not able to get it from the current system. We have offered to assist them.

6980 We did that, as well, in Morely. Ms Cram met Margaret Rider, who was with us, from the First Nation, the Nakota (ph) Nation people.

6981 So we have an established relationship with the current broadcasters, and we see that only getting greater.

6982 I hope I have answered your question.

6983 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Yes, you have answered my question.

6984 Have you allayed the concern that they raise? I don't know.

6985 One of the things that Mr. Martin says is that they would like us not to approve this application now because: "Northern Native Broadcasting plans to expand its services south of the Hamelin Line to cover all of British Columbia."

6986 The question that comes to my mind is: You will be largely at a repeater from Toronto. Here is the potential -- and it is just the potential -- of a British Columbia-based broadcaster expanding through the rest of the province. And I am thinking, which one would better serve Vancouver? Which is closer to Vancouver? Geographically speaking, Terrace and Grenville are closer.

6987 MR. KENNEDY: I understand, as we heard from Mr. Crowfoot in Alberta, as well, that there are plans and there are intentions to do things. With respect, the urban Aboriginal community south have heard promises and are not served.

6988 Yes, in fact, ours is a repeater licence. That is why we are here. The application is clear on that.

6989 However, you also know that we are clear in our business plan to provide local, and we also are clear in our partnership plan with NewCap in the provision of $4.2 million, which, if approved, would help accelerate our local programming. We would have, by far, a much stronger local presence here.

6990 As well, the people at this table bring aboriginal programming with them, and this would be fed to Toronto, and it would be fed back.

6991 We believe that the urban Aboriginal people in the south have a need, and now it is urgent. We have heard promises before and, with respect --

6992 I don't believe that Mr. Clarence Martin or Mr. Crowfoot have applied to you to do this.

6993 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I don't believe so either.

6994 MR. FARMER: I know Bill has some comments as well having worked with northern native broadcasting. Bill.

6995 MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you.

6996 One of the things that had to be realized that we as Aboriginal people have to be viewed not only as separate and distinct individuals, but also people who have the ability to carry on business in a business-like way. What we have presented before you is a business plan and what Clarence Martin's issue is, is that he wants to expand a business and, unfortunately, they are not prepared to develop that business plan and put it before you.

6997 What I would like to tell you at this point in time is we have a group of people who are business-minded. There is a business plan in front of you and we would like you to view the business plan as it should be, separate and distinct and alone. If northern native broadcasting do wish to expand, they have been functioning for well over a decade or two and they do now have the expertise to be able to put forward a business plan to suit their needs.

6998 MR. FARMER: Also, Marilyn Buffalo.


7000 MS BUFFALO: I had the opportunity to speak with Mr. Martin this week and his schedule and my schedule we couldn't connect for some reason. But we did finally get together and I believe the door is open and I made it very clear to Mr. Martin that we are not out here to try and take anybody's business away. I believe that very strongly when you introduce a new product, of which this is in the Vancouver market, Aboriginal radio, you are always going to have a backup, and that is the same in anything. It is not just unique to just communications. It is the same in education and you are always going to have that.

7001 So I believe at some point in the very near future that there is a possibility that we can sit down with all of these potential partners as well and we are, of course, of the same blood. But we know we need to discuss these things behind closed doors with each other first and I believe that can happen in a very good manner and in the next couple of years even I see it. Mr. Crowfoot, as well, I have explained to him a couple of times already that we are open. We want to talk as well.

7002 MR. FARMER: One other thing, Mr. Cardozo, I would like to bring forth is that for years Aboriginal people haven't had any service. So when they actually get some upstart service in a small rural community, they are going to play music that they grew up with and for the most part our culture has been assimilated away from us and when we get a radio station it becomes a little juke box and we put on what we have learned. And if we have grown up with country music, that is what we will put on.


7003 In the case of the Northern Alberta situation that is exactly what they play. They play country music for the most part. In the case of northern native broadcasting they have kind of moved more to the kind of rock, they are kind of a northern rock station for the community up there.

7004 What we are proposing actually is beginning to build someone like Wayne LeVallee(ph) who is in the audience here today; he is a local musician. His music doesn't necessarily get played in a northern broadcasting system because it is native music. They are not playing our people's music. It is in the urban centres in the south where the explosion of artists and everyone is involved is where that is all kind of nurturing.

7005 And if Mr. Clarence Martin or Mr. Crowfoot would like to participate in service, I don't see why we can't have two services in Vancouver market. It's large enough; there is enough people here. We have how many services here for the non-Aboriginal people, several. How many services do we have for the ethnic people; multiple services. We have none. And so I think this is really kind of a dead issue.


7007 MR. KENNEDY: Sorry. I know Billie Pierre is anxious to provide a perspective from youth.

7008 MS. PIERRE: First of all, I think that for native people that is really important that we have a national radio station in that a lot of the news that is really important to us, you know, all the communities in Canada don't necessarily know what is going on with these, in each other's place. But if there is a national coverage, then there is more communication of issues that are happening, more current events and then support could be provided for those people that need it if there is like a crisis situation or anything of that matter.

7009 And I think a provincial one would be good too, but I don't see why both can't be created. A provincial radio station and a national but I think a national one may be best to link with all the Canadian --

7010 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And you live in Vancouver.

7011 MS PIERRE: I live in Vancouver. Also Vancouver is inter-tribal. There is people from everywhere and I am sure they are concerned about what is going on in their communities.

7012 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So for you living in Vancouver, it wouldn't bother you for this national service to be coming out of Toronto?

7013 MS BILLIE: No, not at all. I think it is a good. Like if things have to start and I don't think it will stay that way for long; maybe at first but things have to be established. Like all the different radio stations in the different provinces. And also there is a music scene in Vancouver and in urban scenes. There is hip-hop scenes, there is rap scenes, there is like a lot of young native performers out there who are starting to need the support so that they can launch their careers. And I think that having it based in Toronto or in a big urban setting would be good, would be beneficial for these people.

7014 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Now, when this idea first started and I guess when we were at the Toronto hearing part of what I recall was that you would have this national service which would then be available to all existing native broadcasters like northern native broadcasting or NCI in Manitoba and they could sort of cut and paste and use bits of your stuff and do the rest of the stuff that they do themselves. Where is that --

7015 MR. FARMER: That is a wide open --

7016 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Is this my imagination?

7017 MR. FARMER: That is going to happen for sure. I think it is because we are moving so fast. I mean they have had licensing for 23 years up there and they haven't moved into the major urban centres in the south and we have come along like the new kid on the block and of course with the support of NewCap we have been able to move quite fast. In fact, you may be seeing it elsewhere around the country in the near future within the next years. So it is a brand new effort. So it is moving really fast and I think that is some of the issues around that.

7018 MR. KENNEDY: I will just be quick.

7019 If we look at what is happening today, northern native broadcasting, I mean I can only speak on behalf of myself but I also know that the people at this table have the same situation. When there is a need for southern urban information at northern native broadcasting, I myself -- they call Lynn Terbasket who is their mainstay at northern native broadcasting calls and we provide journalism from our perspective here to them. And we are already doing it but we are doing it who are individuals who are aware of what is going on and we share it.

7020 So the network will do that. I mean the cut and paste, as you call it, it is a two-way cut and paste. But we are already engaged in some --

7021 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: But do you see that Vancouver could have that cut and paste where you might have some from Toronto, some from Terrace.

7022 MR. KENNEDY: Yes.

7023 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: What would need to happen for that to happen?

7024 MR. KENNEDY: It can happen. It is the issue of when it can happen and I believe that becomes a resource issue and we want to aggressively go after it and we would like to do that. Our goal in terms of Vancouver is 20 to 30 hours per week of local programming by the end of the first term of license. I think that is a healthy local content. Regional input would be there as well because of the connection between northern native broadcasting and it would feed down here and we would feed it back to Toronto and it would come out of the networks.

7025 MR. FARMER: You have to appreciate that most of the native service is Canada is not running from midnight on to 6:00 a.m. We are going to provide a service right there for them that is going to be there that they can pull down very easily.

7026 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I have got more questions to go and I am just wondering if this would be a good time for a short break.


7028 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I hear a yes on the Panel.

7029 THE CHAIRPERSON: So we will be back at quarter to seven and hopefully we will all be going home to our beds tonight, not sleeping in the hearing room.

--- Upon recessing at 1830 / Suspension à 1830

--- Upon resuming at 1850 / Reprise à 1850

7030 THE CHAIRPERSON: Ready? Whenever you are. If people aren't here, we can wait.

7031 MR. FARMER: I just wanted to announce that Chief Bill Williams had another previous engagement for 7:00 p.m. so he has to excuse himself.

7032 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Sorry that we were so late today. We had a terrible time this morning with igniters next door and so we ran a little late and our apologies for that and I am sorry he had to leave.

7033 MR. KENNEDY: And there is a member who would be coming just after now because of taking care of business. Thank you.

7034 THE CHAIRPERSON: That is good.

7035 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. Let me just complete the questions that I had with regards to existing native broadcasters.

7036 One of the things we have to deal with in almost all our decisions is balance, balancing different interests and that is just about everything we do and every decision and there are various types of interests that are put before us. I look at the concerns that have been raised by northern native and NCI and others and I look at your project which is really to reach into urban centres which have not had Aboriginal broadcasting, and as you say, partly that is because of the way the government support has been provided has been for northern and rural areas.

7037 I am wondering to what extent you, as the new kid on the block in terms of Aboriginal radio, see your role versus them who have really been at it for a long time. I don't get a sense, and forgive me if this sounds rude, but I don't get a sense that you feel there is much to learn from them, that you sort of know what you are doing and they are kind of doing their thing and it is time for them to catch up with you, the train is leaving the station. Am I off base?

7038 MR. FARMER: Yes, I think so. I don't think that we are --

7039 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Be frank, please.

--- Laughter / Rires

7040 MR. FARMER: I think you are off base, Commissioner Cardozo, because northern native broadcasting is the basis of what broadcasting we have had and radio has existed there. And I have certainly been through the licensing of APTN, right, when the northern broadcast service was exclusively in the north and not available in the south.

7041 I went through that whole process of licensing APTN, winning the license, and that transition still today is a difficult one between north and south that has been, you know, regionalism is what kills this country and it is not unbeknownst to befit the native community as well in terms of the power that broadcasting brings to a community.

7042 So that is going to take some time to work out. I know that the services and the programming that they have in the north for instance with the Inuit Tapirisat, some of the programming they have, there is a real interest to get that broadcaster's languages into southern Canada for their people. And I think that is the kind of relationship that we will have with all of the northern broadcasters. They are going to have programming that we are going to tune into and say, "Boy, that is a great program. Let's get that on our network and let's get that across the country."

7043 Like I say, they are buying services from providers of music content for late hours just to provide some service to the community for music programming. We will be able to provide that void. We will be able to say, "Hey, we are an all night service that you can consider," and we will attempt to sell them on that concept so that they will take our service. We believe that their is other broadcasters that exist in this continent that are capable of supplying service for them as well late night.

7044 So it is a two-way street and we are going to be looking towards them for guidance. Once we are licensed we are going, I mean already there is a relationship between Wawatai(ph) and southern Ontario broadcasters, especially with language broadcasting because they have been doing language broadcasting. They are the essence of language broadcasting. They are the ones that are going to supply us with language broadcasting that they are already producing for southern -- for their people in the south. We are going to be anxiously pursuing them to cooperate with us and to work with them to provide service.

7045 But when it comes right down to it though in the south we are just so in need of the service for some basic issues that we are dealing with in urban societies that that is all that we can think of right now, right, is to get this service and get it working for the people. Then let's work at sharing resources north and south, east and west. We are all a big collective community and we work together. And I think in my -- I looked at these interventions as business at hand. I mean somebody moving into the territories, especially east moving west is very critical.

7046 But we are trying to provide a balance between national and local programming and we will start out resembling the CBC Radio 2 and end up looking more like Radio 1 by the end of our first licensing terms. So we want to create balance too in the broadcasting system too among our own people and we will actively pursue that.

7047 MR. KENNEDY: Chairman, Commissioner, one question I heard you ask us which was, we have got it all figured out and we can't learn from it. This is the inference I took anyway that we have got it all figured out and we can't learn from them. It's the contrary.

7048 We know the challenges that northern native broadcasting has had. We know the difficulties they have had and the strength they have now because of the difficulties they have come through. But I think we have a new day. This is a new day. This is a new time for Aboriginal people and for Canada in the way you are doing business with native people and native broadcasting.

7049 We are not here with our hand out asking for a handout. We are not here asking for government money. We have come to you with a business plan. We have come to you with a double business plan that fits the contemporary policy of the government of Canada by having a corporate partner, by responding to the Royal Commission report, by meeting the Broadcasting Act, by meeting what the government's policy gathering strength says we all must do.

7050 Canadians have to work together if Aboriginal people are going to be able to move forward and be self-determining and self-sustaining by having their own communications. It says that and we have a corporate partner and we don't have the same business model that northern native broadcasting has, and at the risk of repeating myself, I do have some personal experience in having worked with Clarence Martin and before him Ray Jones and knowing some of the challenges and the benefits of that.

7051 Also I finish because I know Marilyn Buffalo has some things to say too, and that is we don't want to leave you with the impression, please, that we are in competition with northern native broadcasting or that we present any kind of a negative context to what they are doing. I represent what Clarence is doing and Lynn and other people up there. I know their product, I know the work they are doing. We want to work with them but it is a new day and it is a different situation for southern urban Aboriginal people.

7052 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I will come back to you, Ms Buffalo, in a second, but on the issue of competition, I accept that you may not be in competition with them. But one way of interpreting the intervention is that they may see you as being in competition with them the existing incumbent, well not the incumbent, but the existing native broadcaster in B.C.


7053 MR. KENNEDY: I would think that is a fair inference having read the letter myself. I can't speak for them. I can't speak for their fears or their concerns or what it is that motivates them.

7054 But if you look at the letter, I think there are a number of statements made in there that are not accurate from an urban Aboriginal perspective and the people here in Vancouver. First both Clarence's letter and the letters we have received from others says that there is not -- it is almost like they are saying there is just not a need for this, not a need now. And we heard in Alberta we are going to get around to doing it some time.

7055 But Billie is the person that I would rely on in terms of information and what she shared with us. We need a national perspective now in the urban Aboriginal community. So we are not a threat to northern native broadcasting, we are complementary. They may see it as competitive but that would be a question to go to them but I don't think so. I think a regional B.C. network, they are not asking for a national network license. They are not asking to do what we are doing.

7056 I will give you another example if I may. The T'suweten people, I don't speak for them, I speak of information I know that has been shared with me by the people there, they in fact are planning a 17-community radio network for their peoples and we have an outreach -- Aboriginal Voices Radio -- because we are in that business and they said, how can we fit in with you and we deal with the Commission and things like that. How can you help us and how can we fit in. That is 17 communities and the T'suweten people.

7057 So we know we are going to be complementary and not competitive. I think the mood we feel in B.C. other than northern native broadcasting is let's work together. But we have left Clarence with that message, Marilyn has and myself, and I got the sense that we are going to meet his interests.


7059 MS BUFFALO: First of all when you look at Canada and as vast as it is and the very diverse Aboriginal languages and cultures that we have, and believe it when I say it, north, south, east and west, we are very, very distinct. I represent the Cree Nation. Well, we have Cree people that live from British Columbia all the way into the Innu of Labrador. I speak with the Innu and they understand me and I understand them. We are just a different dialect but we are the same linguistic group.

7060 So we have Crees, B.C., Saskatchewan, Alberta, Manitoba, Ontario, Quebec and Labrador and if I listen very closely I also can quite understand the Mi'kmaq of Nova Scotia. That is because of my training and my background and speaking my language.

7061 Now, having said that, we are very, very similar but we are different. There are many national issues, for instance, as a national leader that I have had to deal with: issues of family violence, of poverty, police brutality, Aboriginal policy as it effects our people nationally. That does not discriminate urban, rural. It just is applied equally to all, and the effect that it has on a northern people which is different from the southern people and how do we begin to have these round table discussions.

7062 And just in the area of news alone, can I tell you how lonely and isolated one can become if you are living in an urban environment in urban Canada as an Aboriginal Canadian. Because you don't live in the north doesn't mean that you are not isolated. You can be as equally isolated living in downtown Ottawa and Vancouver because you don't hear those voices when you are turning on the television and neither do your children hear these voices.

7063 I will give you another example. I personally got within 24 hours, 20 phone calls from some people I have never met that are very concerned when they saw our children, and I repeat, our children sniffing gasoline on national television. What can we as African women, what can we as women from Jamaica do to help in this crisis. Who do we call? These are issues that are -- I'm sorry, but they happen. It happened in Tsushushee(ph). It's happening in Alberta and British Columbia and they are real.

7064 But we are the ones that will come up with the answers and radio is one vehicle but a very important one that can help to bridge all of us so that we can communicate, and the network is the only way we can do that. Because these northern native broadcasters where they are stationed, in Treaty 8 up in northern Alberta and British Columbia -- I mean into British Columbia and also NWT, they are regionally based. They don't communicate with each other as well as they should. They are not networked. I know that from my experience in living in these communities in the Northwest Territories and northern Alberta. I spent 12 years up there.

7065 So it is very difficult for us as northerners when we live up there to get news to the south. Our issues in the south are not heard in the north. So it is very key, and Vancouver is very key to development of that network.

7066 MR. FARMER: Kelly has a comment as well that she wants to express.

7067 MS WHITE: I can't think that far back, I need my notes. Just kidding.

--- Laughter / Rires

7068 In celebration of the application here and support of all broadcasters, we at Co-op Radio nominated northern broadcasting, successfully so, for a national award. We feel the esteem of all the broadcasters should be celebrated on the local, provincial and national partnership level.

7069 As a First Nations people, right from the local to the parliamentary to the United Nations, factors of relationship with our First Nations peoples it isn't -- our participation here is not to come and divide and conquer. It is not the way of our peoples to have a division attitude and we celebrate all the broadcasters. Even though there may be dissention toward the application here, we would never provide a platform against any other celebrated broadcasters that we helped.

7070 Co-op Radio helped northern broadcasting with funding from our station and we raised that funding for them until they go their own funding. So it is not the atmosphere for partnership that we are providing here. We are celebrating an inclusive participation east to west, north to south, rather than the annihilation of any other broadcasters.

7071 As a member of the National Radio on Campus Association, as well as the host of the AMARC, the second international indigenous broadcasters gathering hosted by Co-op Radio, we celebrate the global community as well as the local community on a daily basis of the professional delivery of the broadcasters. So just for clarification, we don't approach you as jurors or commissioners to lessen any of our broadcasters, colleagues, professional abilities.

7072 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Could I just ask you, Ms White, while you have the microphone if you don't mind, can you tell us about your program on Co-op Radio? You run a program on Co-op Radio, do you?

7073 MS WHITE: Yes. I provide the weekly public affairs. I service the music, "When Spirit Whispers." I also approached for the proposal for the First Nations language of the Coast Salish territory and supported the others. We have seven First Nations programs. So we like to grow like the economy. We like to --


7074 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: How many hours of programming would that be in a week?

7075 MS WHITE: For a weekly basis the Institute of Indigenous Government provides education at two hours Monday. The reservation hosts a half hour monthly. The First Nations Coast Salish program provides a one hour on a monthly basis for the Coast Salish language learning. The public affairs for Kla-how-ya FM, which I hostess, is weekly on Thursdays.

7076 There is a hard rock music program for the mainstream hosted by Wednesday nights "When Spirit Whispers" from midnight until 6:00 a.m. And the Metis Matters broadcasts on a bi-weekly basis for one hour, and the bi-weekly partnership that they carry is my co-hostess drama hour and that is also bi-weekly.

7077 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So that is the bulk of the Aboriginal programming in the Vancouver area?

7078 MS WHITE: Yes, it is.

7079 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I understand Mr. Martin has a program on CHMV, which is the multicultural station.

7080 MS WHITE: I'm sorry. I couldn't hear.

7081 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Mr. Martin has a program on CHMV which is one of the multicultural stations. So from what I gather that is the bulk of the Aboriginal programming available in Vancouver.

7082 MS WHITE: Actually I formerly produced a three-hour North, Central and South America peoples program at CITR out of University of B.C. and celebrate the partnership also with Simon Fraser with the partnership of the NCRA. We don't broadcast any more at UBC or SFU.

7083 MR. FARMER: One thing I would like to make note of too just to show you the amount of work that needs to be done yet. If you look at Ontario specifically for instance in the Wawatai system, there is approximately 36 radio stations in that system. There is 136 communities in Ontario; 36 in the north have some form of radio maybe for eight hours a day and Wawatai services maybe three hours of original programming a week in the languages.

7084 In southern Canada there is probably eight operational stations. So if you add the 8 and the 34 that gives you like 42 communities, that is with no urban exposure at all, 42 communities out of 136 have current electronic media or radio available in those communities.

7085 That is the effort, that there is like 90 communities in Ontario alone that have absolutely no access. Unless we can build the kind of economy that we can with this national system, we are the ones that -- we are going to be able to assist those ones in the middle from the northern system that has had some success or some support from the government.

7086 But the south has had nothing, and that centre portion in the country has absolutely no access and there is no organization there working for them on behalf of them. That is the void that we are going to fill. It is in our best interest once we are licensed and operational to outfit every reserve community with some form of FM receivership so that we can come into the community. As well, in the local regions where those communities are moving toward for employment and education, we need to cover those urban areas.

7087 So we have an extreme amount of -- a lot of work to do and our future is totally laid out for us for the next ten years to radioize native Canada. I think that is the effort that we are really undertaking here.

7088 The other point I would like to make is that because the northern system is inclusive for 42 communities or so, there might not be programming there that is befitting. For instance, there is not a level of information programming that is directed, let's say, for diabetes which we all face as indigenous people. Incidents of 50 per cent over the age of 40 years old we face that.

7089 If there isn't a central radio body that is producing programming on a daily basis that we will be able to do once we get Toronto up, dealing with some of these hard core issues that we are dealing with, whether it be a teenager's sexuality, those kinds of programming aren't necessarily going to come from the north. They are going to come from the south and they are going to come into the northern communities and that is how we will be able to socialize each other to some of the contemporary issues that we are facing. That is the only way that I can see.

7090 So dealing with our health issues, it is Aboriginal Voices Radio that is going to concentrate on 38 per cent spoken word content. It is going to develop this kind of programming that we can distribute across the country and that is the value of Aboriginal Voices Radio Network.

7091 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Can we move to some other marketing issues? Audience share, in the August 4th deficiency, page 194 of the record, you have indicated that you anticipate an audience share of 0.3 to 1.0 from year one through seven. I am just wondering if that is realistic, optimistic, conservative?

7092 MR. FARMER: Yes. Mr. Mark MacLeod has got an answer for you there.


7093 MR. MacLEOD: We had a survey done from Mr. Doering of Peter Doering Consultants to check and see what kind of a reception we thought that a national Aboriginal radio service would receive in cities across Canada; 1,500 people were surveyed in a relatively short period of time in that survey time.

7094 Based on Mr. Doering's experience in taking the responses to very specific questions, he produced a prediction that we would look at seeing about a one per cent market share in Vancouver based on the interest in this market in that part of the survey, which I understand was about, out of the 1,500, about 150 of the responses were in the Vancouver market.

7095 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Are you anticipating a share or listenership from a non-Aboriginal population here?

7096 MR. MacLEOD: Yes. Our experience with native programming that exists, and there is not that much in urban centres is that there is a fair amount of interest of non-native listeners. Certainly the market research that we did through Peter Doering Consultants indicated a widespread interest of non-native urban population in the type of programming that we were offering.

7097 Of course, I think it was mentioned earlier on in response to one of your questions that there is a tremendous amount of anecdotal evidence which you can see it when you look at our table, a lot of that anecdotal evidence right here, that the interest is incredibly strong. The Commission has received a number of applications from Aboriginal voices that it has considered.

7098 Clearly in Vancouver the response is totally overwhelming. I mean you have to be impressed by the level of interest in this application and support from the diversity of communities that make up this urban centre.

7099 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Let me ask about revenues. In your revenues you have projected the national revenues as a portion to the Vancouver market, you have slated at $90,000 a year from year one through year seven. How do you calculate that? Would that be sales in Vancouver or sales from Toronto that somehow you are apportioning to Vancouver?

7100 MR. MacLEOD: The response to that question is that the $90,000 that you see allocated to the Vancouver operation is simply the portion of national sales revenue that will be taken to Vancouver to cover the operating costs in Vancouver. The real prediction of how much of our national -- how our national sales will be impacted by having a Vancouver station is a different matter than at 90,000.

7101 In fact, our consultation with a number of national sales rep houses has indicated that we should expect about an additional third increase in advertising, in national advertising revenue by adding Vancouver to a Toronto/Vancouver network operation. The calculation of our total national advertising revenue is in fact based on an increase of about a fifth rather than a third so we were playing the conservative. The total amount of advertising over seven years with Toronto and Vancouver both licensed and operating would be about $350,000 a year.

7102 Again, those same sales rep houses that we consulted with said that we could expect to generate with a Toronto and Vancouver licensed operation anywhere between as low as half a million year up to a million and a half a year in national sales alone. Again, the figure we are using in our business plan is $350,000 a year with those two stations licensed. So it is a deliberate conservative approach.

7103 COMMISSIONER CORDOZO: I thought it was curious that you would apportion $90,000 a year throughout the seven year period rather than perhaps undergoing on a growing basis as you did with the local advertising and fundraising which is at $15,000 in the first year and works its way up to $35,000 in year seven which would seem to be what one would expect that you do start low and then have the opportunity to grow.

7104 MR. MacLEOD: Yes, the figures that you see for fundraising are more accurate, a portion of the expected revenue to Vancouver. In other words, those numbers going from $15,000 in the first year to $35,000 in year seven are -- we have a lot more expertise in our group in the area of fundraising and predicting what kind of fundraising revenue we can expect because this type of radio, this non-profit community-type radio has 15 or 20 years of experience in Canada in major markets in doing fundraising from a somewhat similar audience to what we expect this station to have.

7105 Whereas there is not a lot of experience in predicting how much advertising revenue could be generated by a service like that. I mean on a national Aboriginal radio network how are you going to predict how much ads you can get. So what you see in setting out for the fundraising are numbers that we, from our experience, feel very comfortable that those will be attained.

7106 The advertising network revenue as allocated to Vancouver are simply the amount that we would have to take out of our total national advertising budget to cover the costs of operating a Vancouver station. The rest of the money above $90,000 that we would pull in will be used to build the national network in the two areas that we have outlined, which is to expand our local programming and of course to expand network stations in other major urban centres across Canada.

7107 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. Let me ask you a couple of, at least three, fairly tougher questions on this because I am trying to get as much precision as possible. As I said at the beginning, one of the reasons we go through this questioning procedure is that we are charged with apportioning frequencies and we have to make sure that those frequencies, once given out, are maintained and people stay in business.

7108 So let me first just ask you based -- like you have provided a certain amount of information to us in the application. I am wondering if you have any updates on that in terms of any hard money that you either have in the bank or have assurances. You have talked about advertising agents, whether you have national buys, whether you have had discussions, letters, anything that can give us more assurance that the kind of potential that you have just outlined is on the way to getting realized.

7109 I understand that, of course, it is easier to do that once you have the license in hand, but as you know with our process, it is sort of the chicken and egg thing. If we hand a license to somebody who doesn't have that basis, then does the radio get launched.

7110 So I wonder if you can give us any more precision, either by companies. I am well aware of what NewCap has provided to the network flowing from the Moncton decision, and I am wondering if you have any more precision?

7111 MR. KENNEDY: I wonder if I might briefly because I am not the expert in this area but I have wanted to make a couple of points.

7112 One, we are engaged in an ongoing fundraising project, which is in fact we are meeting with First Nations Aboriginal representatives, either community and business who have expressed -- these parties have expressed an interest, an excited interest. But as you have said yourself, the reality is we don't have the approval of either the network license. We don't have Calgary. We don't have Vancouver. We do have Toronto.

7113 So there is an expressed interest in that and we are confident about a number of things. If we get those licensing of course the fundraising will come in hand. As well, if we had the monies that NewCap would provide, certainly we could see in kind amounts of money coming from the people we have spoken with in the Aboriginal community.

7114 I don't know if this would be helpful to share with you, one of our sources of expertise and great knowledge in the area of raising revenues and advertising is a gentleman who we have a close association with, whose history is in this area and it is Bob Templeton who sits with us because he is a partner, but also his level of sales and revenue generation expertise, and I don't speak for him, but he is here and certainly can shed light on projections and anticipated amounts we could see if that would be of some use.


7116 MR. TEMPLETON: Commissioner, I am not certain. I was trying to follow, was it the fund raising or the revenue --

7117 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: The fund raising and the advertising revenue, to what extent there are any specifics, any commitments that you have and that AVR has in hand. I am aware of the funding that NewCap has made available to date through the Moncton decision.

7118 As I said earlier, in terms of the NewCap application at this hearing, it is a separate issue that we are not dealing with here. I don't want you to pass out, Mr. Templeton, but we haven't approved your application in NewCap as yet, so we have to pretend like that doesn't exist or may not be approved.

7119 To what extent does AVR have funding sources above and beyond what NewCap has made fairly clear commitments?

7120 MR. KENNEDY: I think that I wouldn't ask Mr. Templeton to speak on behalf of that. That is something that Mr. MacLeod would speak to.

7121 What I was suggesting was -- you had a two-part question, I believe, and advertising generated moneys is what I believe, and Bob has that expertise. So I was not asking him to speak on perhaps the moneys that are currently in-house.


7123 MR. TEMPLETON: Commissioner, I can assure the Commission that these revenue projections with Toronto and Vancouver are very realistic. We consulted with some experts in the area. I myself, personally, have quite a bit of experience in national representation. I ran a major national rep shop for a while about a decade ago.

7124 We spoke with Canadian Broadcast Sales, we spoke with Target Broadcast Sales, and their expert opinion was that these numbers were very conservative numbers that we could rely on.

7125 An analogy I can give is that you can't just look at share and try to project that into revenue, because this is a very unique application. You are selling kind of an environment. Many corporations are asked to make donations, and they get a donation and some goodwill and some signage or something, but that is kind of what they get.

7126 With this kind of sponsorship they get all of that, plus they get commercial advertising of their products on a national basis -- in this case Toronto and Vancouver to start. But the numbers are very realistic and they should not have any problem at all achieving these levels. They are very modest.

7127 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: The point you are making about the environment plus the advertising bang for the buck is something that, evidently, you at NewCap believe in. What I am asking is: Is it your sense that there are other potential advertisers out there who share the same approach?

7128 MR. TEMPLETON: My comments, when I was referring to national advertisers, with this kind of an application, the way it is viewed is, do you want to associate with this environment?

7129 An analogy is sports broadcasting, as an example, with professional hockey or baseball teams. If you look at the share and look at the revenue, they are two different numbers and they don't correlate that much. It is: "I want to be part of that environment. I want to be part of that."

7130 I think that a lot of the emphasis on the sales approach will be: Do you want to speak to the Aboriginal community of Canada, versus how many average quarter-hour shares you are getting.

7131 Either way, whether you look at share or whether you look at the environment, these numbers are modest, in my opinion.

7132 MR. KENNEDY: Commissioner, if I may, for me it always helps to look at a practical scenario. If the Aboriginal Voices Radio Network were up and running, this is an example of a national advertisement that would be a natural for us. I will give you a recent example.

7133 As you know, the Corbiere decision from the Supreme Court of Canada kicked in November 20th. Prior to that, a couple of weeks ago -- actually, I believe, we were appearing before you in Calgary -- Indian and Northern Affairs Canada, the launched a national advertising campaign to reach our target audience, because it has to do with urban Aboriginal peoples' voting rights in their communities.

7134 We have had conversations with not only Indian Affairs, but the Privy Council Office, Heritage Canada and others, as well as at the provincial level and local level. Governments -- I don't speak for them; I am giving you anecdotal comment here -- are champing at the bit to see a national Aboriginal urban focused radio where they can target their moneys. Because now, essentially, it goes to mainstream broadcasters, where our people aren't necessarily the target audience.

7135 So we know there is practical application for that. I don't know if that is helpful, but it is an example.


7137 We are getting to the end and I want to move to the technical issue, the frequency issue.

7138 As you know, Simon Fraser Campus Radio has also applied for 90.9. Have you considered an alternate frequency for yourself, or for them?

7139 MR. FARMER: Mr. Matthews will answer that.

7140 MR. MATTHEWS: Certainly, we have considered all of the frequencies in the Vancouver market. We think we have the opportunity to license up to six applicants at this hearing. We think that 90.9 suits our needs the best, because we are applying for --

7141 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I'm sorry, could I ask you to speak a little closer to the microphone?

7142 With six frequencies, I want to make sure I get this answer down.

7143 MR. MATTHEWS: I can run them down to you. We have 88.1, 90.1, 90.9, 92.3, 94.5 and 106.9.

7144 Now, of those six, you have seen two applied for at this hearing, the 94.5, of course, and the 90.9, which has been applied for by Aboriginal Voices Radio and by Simon Fraser.

7145 We have applied for close to maximum Class B parameters on 90.9, which gives us coverage of the entire Vancouver CMA; whereas Simon Fraser has applied at considerably lower parameters. For that reason we believe it would be easier to find them an alternative frequency, and in fact we looked at 90.1. It looks like it suits the requirements for duplicating the coverage area that they had proposed for 90.9.

7146 We would be happy to share all of our findings with their consultant and provide them with all of the information that we have on that frequency. But it is not the only alternative frequency to 90.9 that might be suitable for Simon Fraser.

7147 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And if you were not to be granted 90.9, which of these others would you be --

7148 MR. MATTHEWS: I would say the second choice would be 106.9 or 107.1.

7149 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. Back to the Simon Fraser issue, you are competing with them. They are providing a local service, which is totally locally based, or almost totally.

7150 Can I take you back to the issue of local that we talked about many hours ago and ask why you think yours is a better fit than theirs, if we are to look at you as competitors for 90.9?


7151 MR. KENNEDY: If I may make a brief comment in answer to that. I first preface my remarks by saying that Aboriginal people have no intention of seeing -- I realize that this is a competitive process from your vantage point and your perspective, and it is in some respects, technically and otherwise.

7152 The Aboriginal community, of course, has a great regard for Co-op Radio and what these people do in the community. We would like to state that. Certainly John and others have established relationships with them on behalf of Aboriginal Voices Radio.

7153 We believe, first and foremost, about our own needs, and we believe the urban Aboriginal community in Vancouver, first and foremost, should have access to the best frequency that is available to provide the best coverage area, because of all the reasons you have heard here today from our people.0

7154 I also believe that Mr. Matthews, who works on our behalf, as well as on our partner's behalf, works specifically on behalf of AVR to share this information with you and other broadcasters, specifically, in the best of intentions of resolving and meeting the interests of all those parties. Our intention is to do that.

7155 But we think we should have the better frequency that we have put forward on our own behalf. As John has said, the alternate frequency for them can meet their needs.

7156 MR. FARMER: Our goal is to provide 20 to 30 hours per week of local programming by the end of our licence term. As resources become available, of course, we will start with the weekday morning show and local news, and our Vancouver media advisors will provide the guidance.

7157 But, of course, with the $4.2 million from NewCap, we will be able to roll this out much faster and expand the network. That is really the issue.

7158 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: You realize that one of the difficulties -- and Billie Pierre was saying earlier: Why not two Aboriginal stations down the road? It is not clear to us how many of these frequencies are actually workable or how much people would actually want them. So at the end of the day, given the competition for frequencies, if there is one in Vancouver, we want to make sure it is a really good one.

7159 So the difficulty I have with your answer -- and I fully understand where it is coming from -- is that if we say yes to AVR now and a year down the road or six months down the road Northern Native comes along and says, "What about us, too?", and there is not a frequency, then we may not have that option.

7160 MS PIERRE: I think that a national connection would be the best. A national communication connection would be the best for all the communities in Canada.

7161 MR. KENNEDY: Commissioner, if I may also remind ourselves, with respect and gratitude, you met Chief Williams today. But we also have support for our business plan and for what we are planning to do and for what Billie is suggesting from the United Native Nations, representing urban Aboriginal people, the Union of B.C. Indian Chiefs, the B.C. First Nations Summit. These are organizations which represent absolutely every First Nation in this province, who endorse our plan.

7162 The Vancouver Aboriginal Council, the Métis Association of Vancouver -- the list is overwhelming. I am sure, Commissioners, you have seen the letters of support, the petitions of support, from both the Aboriginal and non-aboriginal community.

7163 We believe we have come to you with a good product that has support.

7164 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. Back to 90.9, one of the problems, Mr. Matthews and Mr. Kennedy, is that you said this is the better frequency, but there is one small little problem. Somebody doesn't want you to have that either.

7165 As you know, there has been an intervention by CBC, the FM Victoria signal, which is concerned that that signal would interfere with theirs and that the only way it would not interfere is if you took it down in power.

7166 What is your response? And at which point is it not the 90.9 that we have been talking about?

7167 MR. MATTHEWS: In fact, the 90.9 we are talking about here, even at the reduced parameters that the CBC would prefer, is still considerably more coverage than is proposed by Simon Fraser.

7168 Now, on the other hand, we have had an ongoing discussion with CBC regarding the interference issue and we think we are very close to a resolution. We have developed a test protocol that they have accepted, and we believe that we will be able to go on the air at the reduced power, and then, by increasing in stages, prove to the CBC that the interference issue is in fact a non-issue.

7169 We are talking about two stations which are two channels apart. The protection ratio contained within the rules is somewhat outdated with regard to modern radios. So in fact we are confident that if there is any interference developed to the signal of CBC, we will be able to remedy that interference very quickly.

7170 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So you would take it down to 300 watts for a start?

7171 MR. MATTHEWS: Yes.

7172 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Then, the reason you would up it is to see, bit by bit, whether it does have interference?

7173 MR. MATTHEWS: If at 300 watts there is interference beyond the protected contour of the CBC service, we will have a good handle on what interference might take place when we do increase that power. The CBC has accepted this argument.

7174 We believe that we will be able to get it to full parameters within a short period. We want to do that to the CBC's satisfaction and to the satisfaction of Industry Canada.

7175 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: At 300 watts, how much does that cover in terms of territory? Is it not a lot less than what you had planned?

7176 MR. MATTHEWS: No, it is not a lot less. The relationship between area of coverage, or distance, and power is not a linear relationship. In fact, you have to go to something like a 10th of the power at the same height to significantly reduce the area, and, in fact, at full parameters we were looking at a coverage area of two million people, of which about 90 per cent were contained within the three millivolt contour, and by reducing the power to one-quarter, as requested by the CBC, we would only lose something like 15 to 20 per cent of that coverage, which is within the three millivolt and within the half millivolt contour.

7177 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So your financial projections, your advertising, is not affected by this?

7178 MR. MATTHEWS: The business case would still be robust at the lower parameters.

7179 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Can you tell me why you didn't simply apply for a repeater licence?

7180 I'm sorry, not a repeater licence, but why you didn't apply to have your Toronto licence amended to simply allow a rebroadcast in this area. Why do you prefer to have a station based here, especially since, at the starting end, you are going to be doing re-broad from Toronto?

7181 It is a different question, I guess, that I am jumping to.

7182 MR. MacLEOD: I will try to answer the question.

7183 I think that our intention, right from the beginning, has been that the service in Vancouver will be more than a straight repeater service, that in fact local programming will develop as resources become available.

7184 And as you have heard in our presentation today, there is certainly one way in which that could happen very quickly, and that is, if you choose to licence NewCap in this licence hearing, we will have a lot of funding available to immediately execute an increase in local programming.

7185 But, otherwise, as resources become available we will build the local programming service here.

7186 Our intention always was that there would be different programming on different stations that we licence in different markets. So we, right off the top, came out of the gate with that type of licensing strategy.

7187 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Let me ask you, as a closing summarizing question: I would like you to summarize your thoughts about why you should be licensed, keeping in mind at least these two questions that I have in mind. Number one, does Vancouver need an Aboriginal station now? And I think you have said yes very clearly. And if yes, what is the best way of going about it? Is it to licence AVR, or is it to wait for perhaps a subsequent application, or to have two competing applications, or a joint application between you and others?

7188 What would stand the test of time and last financially?

7189 MR. FARMER: I am sorry, can you repeat --

7190 MR. KENNEDY: Commissioner, maybe I could answer. If I am hearing you correctly, this is summation time, and we were going to request that we individually provide you with very brief comments.

7191 It is interesting that your two points are -- well, one anyway. We were not actually really considering it in the technical terms you are, about your choice between one or two services.

7192 But if we could do that briefly --

7193 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Sure, go ahead.

7194 MR. KENNEDY: I would like, first, to go to Cleo, and then we will come back around to myself and then over the other way. If Cleo could start...

7195 MS REECE: Hi. With respect to your question earlier about local broadcasting resources, that unquestionably is here. We have that. We have the experience.

7196 If you look at Kelly, for instance, she is our longest running radio producer in this province.

7197 I have been doing my show, "Hastings Reserve", for five and a half years, and similarly so has Ron Barber over at Co-op Radio -- two programs.

7198 We also have a pool of rising young talent. We have Billie right in front of us here. If you look around, you will see --

7199 Just to let you know, our audience today included a lot of local talent, be they performers or writers, actors and so on.

7200 We are a close-knit community of artistic people, encompassing all of the different artistic disciplines, but we all share a passion for putting our work out there. Whether it is on radio or video, television or whatever, we are going to use those resources if they are available to us, and they are.

7201 The other thing I would like to say is that with the success of our Aboriginal Film and Video Festival, and with the longstanding programming that has been going on through Vancouver Co-operative Radio, the five of them that Kelly named earlier, five Aboriginal programs -- or six of them -- we feel that we have developed an audience which increases year by year, which is informed, critical and appreciative of the work we are doing.

7202 It was also said that we have upwards of 100,000 native people living in Vancouver in the lower mainland, which is a huge audience. But it also involves others than an Aboriginal audience. We have a lot of non-Aboriginal people who are interested in what we have to say, and the kind of talent that we have. They are very interested in hearing about it.

7203 I would like to leave you with those thoughts, and to let you know that, yes, we do have resources here within our people resources. Thank you.


7204 MS WARD: Hi. I would like to speak to this both personally as a Cree Métis grandmother and also professionally as a health care consultant and a youth and child fatality investigator for this province.

7205 The health of our people in this province, as you know, is the worst in this country. In fact, in Vancouver, and most particularly the Downtown Eastside, it is clearly visible and very upsetting.

7206 We know -- and I will bang the drum again and say what we all know -- that there is a longstanding need for healing, a need for greater understanding of our history and what has happened to us, and better communication, not only between ourselves as Aboriginal peoples, but between the two worlds, both native and non-native.

7207 I speak to this, again, personally because I am a Métis woman, so I walk in both worlds, both native and non-native, personally and professionally.

7208 An elder once told me that a way to make the world better is to start building bridges, to start with myself, to become a bridge between those two worlds and to share the information that I have from being raised in a non-native family, but also to help build bridges between the two worlds, and, again, between ourselves: rural, urban, status, non-status, Métis, Innuit.

7209 Traditionally we are an oral society. This radio station would have a ripple effect. It would start here in the urban area of Vancouver, but, undoubtedly, it would ripple out to our rural communities, to our children and to our elders; again building that bridge between them all.

7210 It would be a vehicle to improve our health and our wellness.

7211 We talked about balance. Someone questioned it, and said that we need some balance. This would be a way to improve that balance.

7212 Does Vancouver need an Aboriginal radio station? Without a doubt.

7213 Someone said that if we are going to have one -- I think it was you, Commissioner Cardozo -- it needs to be a really good one. I believe we can make it a really good one. Meegwich.

7214 MR. DEMARAIS: I want to tell you a bit about the community that I am here representing today, and the community in which I work. If you ever come across the postal code V6A, you will know that to be the poorest community in Canada. That has been the case for at least the 10 years I have been involved in trying to provide some health services to people in the Downtown Eastside.

7215 A tremendous number of those people happen to be First Nations people. So we have a high concentration of First Nations people within Canada's poorest community.

7216 Sometimes when we are trying to talk to people out in the greater world, it is almost like we have been totally isolated within that community; totally isolated by the poverty in which we have to live.

7217 So I see this opportunity as finally a way in which we can, with more depth than we are currently allowed, express what is actually happening, to get that across, and also to use those opportunities that would be availed to us around the issues of some of the more explosive issues for our people.

7218 We have people dying daily of HIV-related disease. Tuberculosis is at an all-time high in the Downtown Eastside, to the point where the public health authorities are now suggesting that everyone who lives down there not get a skin test, but a chest X-ray. We have put our entire staff through that. We know of other organizations down there that have done that, and so on and so forth.

7219 I think if we had a way of reaching our people, we could perhaps assist in the educational process that is so needed. Thank you very much.

7220 MS RIVERS: Good evening. Thank you for acknowledging earlier being in the traditional Coast Salish territory. Part of our Chiawial (ph), our Aboriginal law, that we always practise as First Nations people, is to respect and honour the people of the area. So I would like to thank you for that.

7221 As was shared, not only is it important to have this station for the Aboriginal people, but also in Vancouver there are many non-native people who are very interested in First Nations culture, especially with college and university students who may be doing their studies or theses on First Nations people in the B.C. area, or throughout Canada. This would also help educate them on who we are and our history.

7222 There are also foster and adoptive parents out there of Aboriginal children. I have had the experience of meeting some, and have some co-workers who do some work, travelling throughout B.C., educating the children who are with non-native foster parents. They want to keep that step and that door open for the children.

7223 Not only that, but there are many cultures from around the world that want to learn more about the First Nations culture and about being on our territory. What better way to share our pride, humour, history and respect, while hosting many nationalities of the world as well?

7224 I would like to close with something that came to mind from one of my classes that I did in my First Nations studies:

With my identity I move forward; With my society I live on;

With my culture I respect.

7225 Hosiem (native language spoken).

7226 MS WHITE: It is hard to follow good speakers like that.

7227 In celebration of our broadcasters for the development of a partnership with Gary Farmer, we don't support him because he is the cutest guy in the east, or the best movie star, or the one we wait for on television programming; we support him because he and his colleagues, and partners, have broken ground on various levels of communications for indigenous peoples, and for the respect of our partners who reside in our territories.

7228 Since being approached by Mr. Farmer, in a very respectful attitude of the territories and boundaries of the requirement for dialogue to the mainstream to best address the information deemed necessary to be good partners in our beautiful country, we canvassed throughout British Columbia, Alberta and Saskatchewan, from Kla-how-ya FM, to platform our partnership with human rights issues, education issues, family issues, right down to social fields of the arts and performing.

7229 There was great celebration of this endeavour in years back. Even though we are slowly, gradually, taking one tiny baby step at a time, having been approached by us, we learned that one-third of the country's native peoples reside within British Columbia.

7230 To support AVR's application would enhance the ability of the national mainstream listenership to celebrate our rounding of the decade of indigenous people's, whom we ourselves at Kla-how-ya FM implemented through the United Nations.

7231 Our youth programs, as well as elders, have been sponsored to Central America for our youth programmers. Our elderly programmers have been provided the visibility to teach our language, to combat, in essence, the racism and lack of understanding toward our people.

7232 We also maintain a 24-year agreement for peace education with Kla-how-ya FM and Co-op Radio; with a 24-year agreement with the 12 Asia-Pacific countries, which, by us teachers, we agreed to combat racism and war, which is very crucial for us as broadcasters, to lend our diversity of national native broadcasters to a partnership with the mainstream public.

7233 My belief as a broadcaster -- I would like to share my vision statement or mandate from Kla-how-ya FM with the AVR's application. Our vision is to create balance, via unity and harmony and peace for all of our communities, by our participation in our community endeavours. Our belief as broadcasters is to create unity, in essence, of the wealth of our diversity that we could deliver to and with the mainstream to make ourselves a stronger, united country, as diverse as we are with our languages, with the mainstream and the international community, that may listen and partner with our broadcasts.

7234 We appeal for support for Gary Farmer's endeavours. As in starting, our vision without action is merely a dream; and action without vision just passes the time. Vision with action can change the world, and we invite you, as the Commissioners, to create this awesome partnership with the mainstream and the indigenous in the best interests of education for social and economic -- a better lifestyle for all.

7235 Patience with your time, I thank you for your listenership.

7236 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I just want to tell you, Ms White, that I am quite familiar with Gary Farmer's acting career. In fact, I starred with him in a movie. You might not recognize me because he was a great actor and I was in a crowd of about 3,000 people. But I was there.

7237 MS WHITE: Congratulations. We are still waiting in line for that. A one-in-3,000 opportunity.

7238 MR. KENNEDY: Commissioners, I have had the privilege of working in broadcasting most of my life, and being behind a microphone, in a different context of course, and obviously there is something about radio that is pretty special. Really what it is is that we share information, we share perspective, and we share context. So I will share some information with you that I believe you have not heard, and certainly, if you have heard it, you haven't heard it through your mainstream media or the media that we rely on.

7239 I have had an opportunity in the last two years to work with people such as Joy Ward and others here in community work, because of our children and our families. I know you are familiar with the "sixties scoop". I know that because it is a terminology that came around from mainstream, because of media guys like me who like phraseology and buzzwords. It really meant, as the Australians call it, the stolen generations -- ourselves, who were taken from our homes and put into foster care.

7240 The information I am going to share with you, Chairman and Commissioners, is from here in Vancouver. At least, if not more than, 50 per cent of the children who are in the care of the Ministry of Children and Families in the province of British Columbia are Aboriginal. In Prince George it is 67 per cent. In Prince Rupert it is almost 100 per cent.

7241 This is not information that you will hear on the CBC, and it is not information that you will hear from the mainstream media, because we are isolated and our information is isolated from them. And they don't care, with respect.

7242 I have spent my life mostly in non-Aboriginal mainstream media and I know that we are only now breaking through in our information. So that is one piece of information that I will share with you.

7243 Now I am going to share a piece of information with you from a non-aboriginal person in your world, a highly respected man, Michael Chandler, from the University of British Columbia.

7244 Michael shared with me personally and allowed me to use this information on behalf of our people over the last couple of years. He did a study on suicide. It is not a nice topic. It is not a topic we like to discuss, but it is one we need to discuss amongst all of the other topics that Lou and others have shared with you today.

7245 Michael Chandler's study was about Aboriginal people, First Nations people, specifically First Nations youth. Our youth are in peril and in danger of this particular activity of suicide. So his study went into it. He found what I believe is information that is very important and relevant to why we are here today.

7246 The communities that he went into and studied where there was cultural restoration, where there was self-determination, where there were efforts under way to bring back the culture of those communities, the rate of suicide with our young people plummeted. There were some examples in his study -- and it is available to you -- of absolutely zero in the communities where there was the strength of self-determination, self-government, and cultural restoration and renewal.

7247 Our elders have told us this. They tell us always: Get in touch with your traditions. We need to do this. But this is information coming from the non-Aboriginal world at the University of British Columbia.

7248 His study focused on our people. The message that I got out of that -- and I asked him if I could use this message in spreading the word through the Aboriginal community through the Web site -- was: Save culture; save lives.

7249 Here I go again, a media guy looking for quick phraseologies, but we need to simplify, and radio is the business of trying to communicate quickly and easily.

7250 He said yes. Save culture; save lives.

7251 How does Aboriginal Voices Radio tie into that? I think you have heard from Joy and others that if we had this radio, if we could share these messages, if we could share the solutions, not just the crisis and everything, but if we could share the solutions and help restore the culture and bring it back, we actually could help save lives.

7252 This is information that I share with you, and I believe this is the kind of information that would be on Aboriginal Voices Radio, which would help not only identify the problems, but identify to mainstream people and media that there are solutions.

7253 It is what we are saying. We are saying: Allow us to be self-determining for the express purpose of bringing back languages and cultures, and things like that, and to save our youth.


7254 MS PIERRE: The urban native population in the south, in Vancouver, is mostly under the age of 25.

7255 These are some things I really want to share with you.

7256 In Vancouver there are a lot of native youth who are very focused on multimedia and who have received training. There aren't enough jobs going around. A lot of these people need the support and encouragement to further develop their talent and skills. These people are willing to provide quality media coverage of native issues that just isn't provided in mainstream media.

7257 A national Aboriginal radio station would help these youth in striving for their goals to support and provide news and arts and entertainment information to the native communities in Canada.

7258 In the inter-tribal urban community of Vancouver there are lots of brilliant people who have valuable knowledge, opinions and wisdom to share. Their words are gifts to everyone, which everyone needs to hear.

7259 Also, with what he was talking about, I find that working with a lot of young people, being young myself, a lot of us find our biggest inspiration in each other. So it is really important that our voices be heard and that we start empowering other people to find their own voices and to start talking.

7260 There is no shortage of fresh talent in Vancouver. There is a healthy urban music scene. A lot of native youth are emcees and are into rap and hip-hop. These aren't really promoted, and I think there are a lot of people who could be launching their careers.

7261 Also, I would like to say that there are huge urban music scenes -- urban native music scenes -- in Winnipeg and also in Edmonton, and to be linking these together could be starting a whole new music industry, which could be useful to Canada in general.

7262 If they are linked through Aboriginal Voices, this could launch the career of the artist, while having a major impact on the lifestyles of native youth all over Canada through inspiration and finding that pride. I think that would be really inspiring for people.

7263 Aboriginal Voices Radio would provide all Canadians a chance to see native people in a light other than the popular Hollywood Indian stereotype. Right now in mainstream media native people and their actions are often portrayed in an ignorant and unclear light because of the overall lack of understanding of where native people are really coming from.

7264 If there were a service that could share the points of view of native people in this country, that would promote understanding and clarity, this could be of benefit to everyone.

7265 MS BUFFALO: Thank you.

7266 Commissioners, I am very encouraged by the team that we were able to assemble to present before you the proposal that we have to launch; I think what is known to be an unknown -- the unknown. And it is fearful.

7267 Other people have told us that we won't succeed because we don't have the money or we don't have the experience, but, believe me, the one thing we do have, especially as native women --

7268 If you notice, the majority of the people on this panel are female. We have a very strong will to survive. And we will make it. I absolutely have nothing but full commitment to this initiative nationwide.

7269 I see the need. There is no way that we can fail. Why should one be afraid to fail? We should not be afraid to do that.

7270 I believe that one of the most difficult things that you can do as a national leader in this country is to try to get some money from the resources that are here in this province. If you can believe it, this is one of the richest communities, and I would say it is the most cosmopolitan in North America. Yet it is impossible to shake loose $300 for a native woman to leave the Vancouver detox centre to go home to her community in Saskatchewan, because the Vancouver detox centre does not have that kind of money, the social services in this province do not have that kind of money, and neither do the feds. They are very happy just keeping us in poverty.

7271 I say that because I have tried, and I did that exactly last week.

7272 I believe that if we are successful in garnering the partnerships, that we successfully will have once our licence is approved, and NewCap's licence is approved, we can move forward together. They have given us the commitment that they will teach us, and that we also will teach them some things that are very valuable.

7273 I don't believe going into the new millennium, the year 2001, that we should be expected to always be on the same page, singing the same song; that we should not have disagreements.

7274 We all develop differently. We have very controversial issues in our midst. And we have also the number one right -- the only right that we have left in this country, which is our freedom to speak freely. That is the only thing we have left, ladies and gentlemen, and we need that in order to move forward.

7275 We also need to have true native content on the airwaves. Our children are starving. I have conducted consultations, conferences, conventions across this country over the last 30 years, and the number one thing that our children ask for is the right to speak freely, and the right to learn their language, the right to learn their culture.

7276 On the other hand, if you have -- and I have done this, and I have the documentation to prove it -- if you have an elders conference, it doesn't matter where it is conducted, it is nationwide. What is their number one concern? Their number one concern is youth and the rate that children are dying in the communities, urban and rural, and northern isolated.

7277 This is a vehicle that will bridge the two groups, the elders and the youth, and only then will we move forward in a healthy fashion.

7278 Also, I want to say that, as we speak, the Toronto community is hosting, throughout North America, in the SkyDome might I add, one of the largest festivals in this country. They are also hosting the Canadian Aboriginal Music Awards, what are the Aboriginal Junos -- every category, from the traditional to the modern contemporary. Our people are celebrating today and all of this weekend.

7279 Many of us could only dream that our children would one day be on stage at that time, and in the next 10 or 15 years that is what will happen.

7280 I have been involved in education for 30 years. We still have a long way to go.

7281 I was raised in a boarding school. The one thing that they could not do was shut me up, because I absolutely refused. And I will not ever be quiet. That is the only thing I had left as a child.

7282 The new era -- we are now moving into the sciences, into the maths -- we are going into high tech, the same as any other child that is put on this planet.

7283 Our children will succeed, but it will only be with the vehicles, and radio is only one of them.

7284 I plead with you to please give us the right to express ourselves, our freedom of speech. Thank you very much.

7285 MR. FARMER: Thank you very much for all of the time you have given to us today. Thank you very much for the television network that you gave us a few months ago, or a few years ago. I realize that it still costs us $39.95 to get to it.

7286 This is the last opportunity for us to get a licence --

7287 THE CHAIRPERSON: Maybe $18.95, if you don't take all of those packages. You can get it on basic.

7288 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: It's because you are getting TSN; that's why.

7289 MR. FARMER: But realize, of course, that this is the last free medium for us. It is the medium that is most accessible to the people. It is our medium; it is the oral medium.

7290 I am astounded by the decision that you have to make, because, in your hands, the five of you can literally fund this operation for seven years -- the first seven years of operation -- with the right decision. You would put it on a path and there would be no turning back. That would be very beneficial for the country.

7291 I know that you will make the right decision. With that, I thank you all for the time, and we look forward to a positive decision. (Native language spoken.)

--- Applause / Applaudissements

7292 THE CHAIRPERSON: I have a fairly mundane question, after all of those eloquent remarks. However, sometimes my work is mundane, as I guess all of ours is from time to time.

7293 I wanted to clarify, with respect to the programming that is now being produced locally on Co-op Radio, are you proposing that that programming would go on the network?

7294 What I am trying to get a sense of is if there is any existing radio broadcasting that you are planning --

7295 I know that Commissioner Cardozo talked to you about it, but I just wasn't sure if that might be some of the programming that would go on the network.

7296 MR. FARMER: Yes, for sure. Any programming that is produced in the country, either relations that we have --

7297 I mean, there are programmers that I got started at Queen's University ten years ago who are still there, the same programmers. They only got better with time. So we are going to turn to them, see what they are up to, and help shape their programming to fit a national audience. That is in our best interest.

7298 THE CHAIRPERSON: The reason I am asking is -- and I don't know how many of you know, but I am the Commissioner for British Columbia and it is with respect to all of the applications that are before us. It is a very big concern of mine, to ensure that there is a sensitivity to that piece. And certainly the urban native piece is a very important piece.

7299 So I really want to make sure that when we talk about this --

7300 The proposal, as it has come to us, does not require any programming to be originated out of British Columbia or Vancouver. In other words, you have a lot of very good intentions, and I don't doubt them, and I don't doubt your will and the talent that is here. None of that is an issue for me. Nor do I think any of us question the importance of having Aboriginal radio. I think all of us share that. The question is: What is the best way to do it? Is this the best proposal?

7301 One of the things that is really important -- and, for me, it is to understand that if in fact NewCap isn't licensed, if in fact your corporate partner -- that doesn't happen -- to what extent will you be able, and when, to put on some programming?

7302 Let's put aside the issue of local programming for a minute and talk about programming that originated -- is relevant to this community. This is why -- and I don't want to go on and on about it. We could maybe talk about it partly at another phase. But this is why I am saying, if some exists for Co-op Radio and is being produced, is there a supply of programming already here in this market that would be appropriate for the network, so that there would be some things that could be done that wouldn't require perhaps production budgets and that sort of thing.

7303 MR. FARMER: Yes, there is. There is programming like this all across the country.

7304 In fact, we honour your vision, as the CRTC, in enabling the community and college broadcasters to exist for so many years. Some of it has been tough. Some of the situations that exist in Toronto with the community broadcasters have made it extremely difficult for them to survive in that kind of climate.

7305 But, actually, if you look at the college broadcasting community, that broadcast system is what leads the charge. I think the private broadcasters and the CBC look toward it. It is the training ground in this country for broadcasting.

7306 We are going to utilize that as much as everyone else. We feel that we are equal. We are brothers and sisters with the college and community broadcasters in this country. We are going to utilize their programming and take it nationally as best we can.

7307 MR. MacLEOD: I would like to add two quick comments to that, if I could. One is that we realize that the Commission faces similar difficult decisions when the CBC is proposing national services in urban markets across Canada where it is not planning on putting any local programming in those markets, and obviously your concern would be the same with them: What are they going to do to develop the programming?

7308 You have said that you accept that our intentions are good.

7309 I would remind you again that the plan in our application is to develop -- we need to develop an economy, and in order to develop that economy we have to get the stations up in markets across Canada, and Toronto and Vancouver would be great as a start, in order to build national advertising revenue, in order to build the local programming component that we need. That is a big part of how this works.


7310 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and I do understand that. It was just that piece that --

7311 You know, it is really important to me, the Regional Commissioner here, that those Aboriginal people from Vancouver understand that the extent to which --

7312 I want to make sure that I am connecting with them in terms of what they are expecting of me. That is why I wanted to explore that; to understand that it may well not --

7313 If all of these other pieces don't fall into place, it may be that there isn't going to be an infrastructure here to produce programming, and it may be finding other ways to do it. Or revenues may come from other sources.

7314 That was just what I wanted to really make sure was understood.

7315 MR. KENNEDY: Madam Chair, I believe I hear and understand what you are saying about the challenges you face. We have been here as many days and certainly know all of those other factors that you refer to if other things don't occur.

7316 In fact, the expectations that we have been told the Aboriginal community has here -- and Billie, I think, articulated it clearly -- it was simple for me to understand -- is that they want to hear a national perspective. But that is two-way. If we were in Ottawa speaking to the Aboriginal community there, there would be an expectation that it would go both ways.

7317 There is local programming here, which these people here produce, but that is now. They are doing it. We heard Cleo. I think she said the key word. They do it. It is a labour of love and it is volunteered.

7318 What we have committed to -- if we have the package that we have put together, with $4.2 million to assist us, where moneys would allow us to help not only the network but also local programming, then we would have a Class A. That is what the Aboriginal people deserve, Class A. And I don't mean that in --

7319 I don't want to go off into a frequency --

7320 THE CHAIRPERSON: I understand that. And I don't mean to interrupt you.

7321 What I need to do, though, is to ask some of those "What if" questions, because it is really important for me to put them on the table here so that we all understand that we have a number of things to face.

7322 That is all I wanted to do, was to ensure that there was that "What if" piece.

7323 I am not going to say one more thing.

7324 Commissioner Cram has a question.

7325 With Commissioner Cram, also, I wasn't sure that I picked up --

7326 Will you file these studies, Mr. Matthews, with us that you have?

7327 MR. MATTHEWS: Yes. You already have the frequency studies on file from the NewCap presentation.

7328 THE CHAIRPERSON: So there is nothing else that you have that we might want, that you talked about sharing with some of the other --

7329 MR. MATTHEWS: In terms of technical detail, we will be providing everything we have done in terms of research to Simon Fraser.

7330 THE CHAIRPERSON: And what about to us?

7331 MR. MATTHEWS: If you would like a copy, that would not be a problem.

7332 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

7333 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I would like to be clear about this issue of picking up programming from Co-op Radio, because I know I asked this in Calgary, and I don't want the people here to have false expectations. We discussed the same thing in Calgary, and I thought there was going to be a technical cost to that; that we had to get it into an uplink in order to get it to Toronto, in order to downlink, and I thought I understood from you that the cost would be quite substantial.

7334 Am I incorrect?

7335 MR. KENNEDY: My understanding is that it is not substantial to do that, but certainly Mark or Mr. Matthews could answer that.

7336 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So what would be stopping you from doing it effective September, or whenever your licence comes up? Whenever Toronto rolls in.

7337 MR. KENNEDY: You asked about uplink.


7339 MR. KENNEDY: That is without the large package. That is without meeting the expectations and the needs of the community.

7340 We have a plan to go it alone, which is in our application, without the other factor that the Commissioners have mentioned, which is the $4.2 million. We have that, and we will move forward, and we will have Toronto on the air, and we will have a network.

7341 The expectations that the Aboriginal community -- it is not me, it is the Aboriginal community here in Vancouver and in Calgary that you heard from, whether it is Margaret Rider representing the community there, or the people here.

7342 The $4.2 million will allow us to provide to the Aboriginal community, we believe, what the Aboriginal community deserves. It won't be a shoestring.

7343 Why should we have to do that? Why should we have to go --

7344 Why would we have to wait all of those years, when we could accelerate and have an aggressive network and put radio on the air in Ottawa, in the prairies, and in other places?

7345 We would like to do that, so that when Billie Pierre turns the radio on in Vancouver and says that she wants to hear a national perspective, she will hear a national perspective, and she can also send it back through the radio.

7346 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Mr. Kennedy, my question was really a follow-up on Commissioner Grauer's, because the question was asked of Mr. Farmer: Will you be putting this local programming on from Co-op Radio? The answer was yes.

7347 And I understood in Calgary that that was not going to happen -- because I asked an identical question in Calgary -- that that was not going to happen, that it was going to be national programming, and eventually you may use this.

7348 So my question is -- and my concern is the same issue: the expectations of the community here for local programming, and what they should expect.

7349 Again, I ask: Will this kind of programming from Co-op Radio be uplinked and downlinked so that immediately, if this station is licensed, the people here would have Co-op Radio local programming?

7350 That is the question I need to have answered.

7351 MR. FARMER: I'm sorry, Ms Cram, but in Calgary there was one program -- and also there was Margaret's input. Of course, they are doing 50 hours a week. We have absolutely no problem --

7352 And I remember distinctly that I said I was anxious to get some of "The Best Drums in the Country". Now, that was, of course, a program that they don't necessarily produce right now, but all we have to do is lay the seed and that program will be produced in that community. But the "Beads and Feathers" program that exists at the University of Calgary right now can easily be adopted to the network with no problem.

7353 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Mr. Farmer, I am asking today about Co-op Radio here and Vancouver programming. If we gave you a licence, would that happen immediately? The licence is coming. You are putting your transmitter here. Would the Co-op Radio programming be on the waves for the people of Vancouver?

7354 MR. FARMER: If it befits a national audience, yes it will.

7355 MR. MacLEOD: Could I follow that up, Commissioner Cram?

7356 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Can I just, please, finish this.

7357 So only, then, if it would be on the national network. It will not be, effectively, instantly a local package, even though you are not producing it.

7358 MR. FARMER: It could, but in our -- yes, it very well could be.

7359 I am distinctly relating to what our delivery mechanism through the Aboriginal Peoples Television Network has outfitted to us, that if the programming is of national interest -- now, local programming, I am sure, is of national interest. The one that Kelly is producing here would be of national interest, and we could, yes, indeed put that on the national airwaves. No problem. From the beginning.

7360 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Mr. MacLeod...?

7361 MR. MacLEOD: I just want to make it clear that part of our pledge to the community in Toronto -- and our licence application in Toronto was that those people would hear programming from elsewhere, as well, the same as it is here.

7362 Your question, I think, was centring on whether there would be programming only heard in Vancouver and not heard in Toronto --

7363 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Local programming, yes.

7364 MR. MacLEOD: Our application is that, according to your definition of local programming, we will only have basically the community bulletin boards to start. However, there will be a great deal of programming produced locally, including that of Co-op Radio -- potentially parts of that -- that will be heard in both markets, because both markets are interested in hearing that programming.

7365 MS REECE: Could I also add something to that?

7366 If you look at what has happened with APTN, they are looking for programming constantly -- good programming. We did find some here. VTV produces a half-hour public affairs/public interest show, a First Nations show, which has been picked up by APTN and rebroadcast there. I can see the potential for good programs coming out of Vancouver doing the same thing.

7367 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very, very much.

7368 Counsel has no questions. We have fully explored all of the issues.

7369 MR. KENNEDY: Thank you.

7370 MR. FARMER: Thank you.

--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2030, to resume

on Friday, November 24, 2000 at 0900 / L'audience

est ajournée à 2030, pour reprendre le vendredi

24 novembre 2000 à 0900

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