ARCHIVED -  Transcript - Burnaby, BC - 2000/11/20

Transcripts

In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages

Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be

bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members

and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of

Contents.

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded

verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in

either of the official languages, depending on the language

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.

Transcription

Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues

officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront

bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des

membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience

publique ainsi que la table des matières.

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu

textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée

et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues

officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le

participant à l'audience publique.

Applications for FM radio licences

Demandes de licences de radio FM

BEFORE / DEVANT:

Cindy Grauer Chairperson / Présidente

Joan Pennefather Commissioner / Conseillère

Jean-Marc Demers Commissioner / Conseiller

Barbara Cram Commissioner / Conseillère

Andrew Cardozo Commissioner / Conseiller

ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:

Donald Rhéaume Legal Counsel /

Conseiller juridique

Marcel Touchette Hearing Manager / Gérant de

l'audience

Marguerite Vogel Secretary / Secrétaire

HELD AT: TENUE À:

Hilton Vancouver Metrotown Hilton Vancouver Metrotown

Room Crystal III Salle Crystal III

6083 McKay Avenue 6083, avenue McKay

Burnaby, B.C. Burnaby (C-B)

November 20, 2000 Le 20 novembre 2000

Vancouver, B.C. / Vancouver (C-B)

--- Upon commencing on Monday, November 20, 2000

at 0900 / L'audience débute le lundi 20 novembre

2000 à 0900

1 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

2 Welcome to this Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications public hearing. At this hearing we will consider a number of FM radio licence applications for Vancouver, Burnaby, Nanaimo, and Abbotsford.

3 My name is Cindy Grauer. I'm the CRTC Commissioner for British Columbia and Yukon. I will be chairing this hearing. Joining me on the panel are my colleagues from the Commission: Barbara Cram, Commissioner for Manitoba and Saskatchewan, and Commissioners Jean-Marc Demers, Joan Pennefather and Andrew Cardozo.

4 The staff who will be assisting us at this hearing are our Hearing Manager, Marcel Touchette, Hearing Secretary, Marguerite Vogel and our Legal Counsel, Donald Rhéaume. Ann Charlotte Pulleybank is in charge of the Examination Room. Arie Lubienietzky, Chief, Systems Planning, Ian McDiarmid, Senior Commerce Officer and Mike Amodeo, Manager, Applications Review are also assisting us at this hearing. Please feel free to speak to them if you have any questions.

5 This hearing will examine 11 applications for FM radio licences for frequency 94.5 as well as two applications for FM radio licences for 90.9 FM in Vancouver. In addition, we will consider two applications for FM radio licences for frequencies 106.9 and 101.7 in Nanaimo and one FM radio application for frequency 107.1 in Abbotsford.

6 One of the determinations we will be making in this proceeding is the availability of frequencies for use in the Vancouver market. Pending that determination, we are considering all applications to be competing.

7 The first group of FM radio applications we will consider are those for frequency 94.5. We will hear from the following applicants in this order: The Canadian Broadcasting Corporation or CBC; Newcap Inc.; Standard Radio Inc.; Télémédia Radio (West); Craig Broadcast Systems Inc.; Classic 94.5 FM Ltd.; Jim Pattison Industries Ltd.; Focus Entertainment Group Inc.; Future Radio Inc. and Mainstream Broadcasting Corporation.

8 After we finish hearing the presentations regarding frequency 94.5 in Vancouver, we will then look at the applications for the frequency 90.9.

9 We will first hear Gary Farmer, on behalf of Aboriginal Voices Radio and then from the Simon Fraser Campus Radio Society.

10 This panel will also consider an application from Rogers Broadcasting Limited to convert their Abbotsford AM radio station to an FM station on frequency 107.1.

11 And it will consider two applications for FM radio station licences on frequencies 106.9 and 101.7: Central Island Broadcasting Ltd. has applied for a licence to convert their AM service to FM on 106.9 in Nanaimo. And the Radio Malaspina Society has applied for an FM radio licence for frequency 101.7.

12 We expect this hearing to last for two weeks. Please note that we will not sit on November 27, 2000, Election Day.

13 We plan to start at 9:00 every day to approximately 5:15, except on Friday, November 24th, when we plan to start at 8:30. I will let you know of any changes to our schedule as they happen.

14 To complete the required work in the available time, we will examine the applications in four steps or phases.

15 First, we will hear the applicants' presentations and the panel questions for each application. During this phase, we will hear from three applicants each day, except on Friday, November 24th, when we plan to hear from the last four applicants.

16 The next or second step will consist of all the applicants' interventions. These interventions will be made in the same order as the presentations.

17 In the third step, we will hear from the appearing intervenors from the public.

18 In the fourth and final step, the applicants will appear in reverse order to reply to all interventions.

19 Before I turn matters over to our Hearing Secretary, Marguerite Vogel, I would like to announce that we will start this Public Hearing with a presentation by Mr. Brian Antonson, Associate Dean of the British Columbia Institute of Technology. Mr. Antonson's presentation will be general in nature and will not address any of the applications we are examining at this hearing. Therefore, Mr. Antonson's comments will not be taken into consideration by the panel in its deliberations.

20 Merci de votre attention. Nous sommes prêts à commencer et à vous écouter.

21 Now I will ask Marguerite Vogel, our Hearing, to go over the procedures we will follow.

22 Ms Vogel.

23 MS VOGEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

24 First of all some general information. The public files that are associated with the applications that we will hear during this hearing are located in our Public Examination Room in Waterford II, and that is the room beyond the escalators. It's open when the hearing is in process.

25 A reminder though that the item that is currently being heard, the files will be in this room and not available for viewing. But the rest of the files will be available.

26 There is a verbatim transcript of this hearing being taken by a court reporter who is located just to my right beside the panel table. If you have any questions about how to obtain all or parts of a transcript, please approach the court reporter during a break for that information.

27 And if you want to have messages taken during this hearing, we will be pleased to take them and post them outside Waterford II. The phone number, for your information, for the Public Examination Room is (604) 666-6703.

28 Something I have not had to announce before, but there is information on the Sky Train's schedules between downtown and this hotel available to everyone from the Public Examination Room.

29 Now, the Chair in her opening remarks indicated that there were four phases to hearing the applications. A reminder that the presentations to the Commission by applicants have a time limit of 20 minutes and intervenors have a time limit of 10 minutes each. I will remind you again, I am sure.

30 Just another word. When you are prepared to speak to the Commission, please hit the white button on your microphone and make sure that the red light goes on because if you don't do that, we can't hear you.

31 Now, Madam Chair, with your leave, I would as Mr. Antonson to come forward for his presentation.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

32 M. ANTONSON: Bonjour.

33 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Bonjour.

34 MR. ANTONSON: Good morning, Madam Chair, members of the Commission.

35 I thank you for welcoming me this morning to make this very short presentation. I am aware that you have a very tight schedule over the next couple of weeks so I will be brief. You have copies of my notes in front of you to follow along if you wish.

36 I am the head of the Broadcast and Media Communications Department at the British Columbia Institute of Technology, BCIT. I lead a team of highly qualified faculty members who provide training for people seeking careers in radio-television, broadcast journalism, new media, animation, and related fields.

37 We provide job-ready skills for some 240 full-time broadcast students, another 1,100 part-time broadcast students, and some 3,000 new media, animation and general media students in a mix of full and part-time courses each year.

38 It's an exciting and stimulating yet daunting task. Our home is our 25,000 square foot Broadcast Centre which is located on our main campus in Burnaby, just a few blocks North of here, and we have various smaller laboratory and classroom facilities located in two other campuses, downtown and at Sea Island.

39 We have been in operation since 1964, and we have established an enviable track record as one of Canada's leading media-related training programs. We have a long list of applicants each year -- about four times as many as we can accept -- and we have very high placement on graduation. So all of our key performance indicators are pretty good.

40 As we move into the new century, we face numerous challenges, and many of them are invigorating and some lead us into new and exciting areas. Other challenges are more traditional, and one that we face consistently is that of sufficient funding to support our operations and our need for growth and expansion. Provincial government dollars are squeezed today, budgets are tight and will continue to be tight for many years to come.

41 In our specific case, our programs have received an average of only $65,000 per year in capital funding over the past three years. Given the size of our operation, that really isn't very much. It is a small amount and it seriously hampers our ability to meet the rapidly growing and changing demands we face in a highly technology-oriented environment.

42 The changeover to digital technology carries with it a large price tag and the anticipation of moves toward HDTV and similar technologies is a huge challenge for which funding will be sorely needed.

43 Thus, we continue to seek new ways of attaining the funds needed to sustain and grow our programs. And thus, I appear before you today.

44 Many of our colleagues in the broadcast industry -- the people who hire our graduates, and some who have input to our programs through our advisory committees -- have long indicated to us a desire to be able to invest more significant dollars into our training programs and to be able to receive credit and recognition from the Commission for doing so.

45 Their support for scholarship and award programs has been laudable and has grown over the past decade or so, and today we can state that we have one of the longest lists of scholarship and award supporters of any program at our institution.

46 That said, these scholarship and award dollars are relatively small and they go directly to recognize and support the continued efforts of specific outstanding students. They are based on scholastic achievement attained by the cream of the crop, and we are very, very proud of these people as they attain those awards.

47 So we continue to seek ways to broaden this support and to have it affect all of our students and ultimately to benefit our industry.

48 We believe we truly to develop Canadian talent within our programs. While we don't train musicians, singers or music creators, we do train the people who produce Canadian music videos, we do train the people who showcase Canadian musical talent in radio programming. We train Canadian journalists who apply their education and talents to reporting news on radio and television and now online media on a daily basis. We train new media creators who develop Web pages and CD-ROMs, and the like, for a variety of Canadian companies. We train animators who create new and innovative visual animation productions.

49 These people are Canadians. Their talent is being trained and developed in Canada and we believe this truly represents Canadian talent development.

50 The point of my presentation, next. We would like to see the development of a policy that recognizes and in fact encourages the allocation of significant funds by broadcasters who are applying for licences, licence renewals and transfers of ownership to our broadcast training programs under the tangible benefits practice.

51 There have been some interesting and encouraging developments of late. For instance, in Decision 99-482, the granting of a licence to CHUM Limited in Toronto -- rather London, Ontario -- CHUM made a commitment of $1.2 million to Fanshawe College to be used to built new studios and laboratories and to upgrade recording studio equipment.

52 This is precisely the kind of opportunity that I am talking about here: a significant investment that will improve the quality of training in a program quite similar to ours and ultimately have a positive impact on our industry and Canadian culture in general.

53 Granted, any applicant can make any promise whatsoever to the Commission, but they must be mindful of the policy goals involved in developing Canadian talent and they also wish to ensure that their promises are seen by Commissioners to bring value to the Canadian broadcast industry and indeed to the country as a whole, and in short to gain credit for their commitment.

54 We believe that a policy recognizing the value of our broadcast and media training programs, indeed recognizing the value of similar post-secondary programs across Canada, will result in significantly increased contributions to our programs.

55 Broadcasters could invest in tangible ways in the training of their future employees by making contributions that could be used to develop and upgrade new and existing facilities that could allow us to keep pace with the rapid change in technology used in our industry.

56 Broadcasters would recognize this as a very positive return on their investments. For instance, supporting the establishment of a new digital radio production facility would pay off two years later when the first graduates trained in that facility emerged to take positions in industry. Trained in the very latest digital technology, they will be prime candidates for employment.

57 The Canadian Association of Broadcasters has identified human resource development as one of their key strategies required for the continued success of our industry and we believe this initiative ties in with that strategy completely.

58 We recognize that policy on Canadian talent development will be reviewed over the next year and intend to participate in that process. We also recognize that new licence applications, licence renewals and transfers of ownership will continue to occur as our industry reshapes itself, and we think the time is right for a policy that encourages applicants involved in these processes to make a considerable investment in the training of a new generation of broadcast and media employees.

59 I would ask that the Commission take these comments on board today in the spirit of planting a seed. We believe much good can grow from these concepts and that introducing policy on tangible benefit allocations to broadcast and media schools and expanding Canadian talent development policy to include benefits for broadcast and media schools will ultimately provide a significant tangible benefit to Canadian viewers and listeners.

60 We are hoping you will see merit in this concept and that from this presentation we will grow opportunities for our programs and other similar programs across the country.

61 If you have any questions, I would be pleased to answer them, otherwise I thank you for your time.

62 THE CHAIRPERSON: I don't think so.

63 Thank you, Mr. Antonson.

64 MR. ANTONSON: Okay.

65 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary.

66 M. TOUCHETTE: A l'article 1 de l'ordre du jour, une demande présentée par la Société Radio-Canada en but d'obtenir une licence de radiodiffusion visant l'exploitation d'une entreprise de programmation de radio FM de langue française à Vancouver.

67 La station offrirait le service de la Chaîne culturelle y compris environ 20 minutes par semaine de carnets culturels et d'indicatifs. La station serait exploitée à la fréquence 94,5 MHz avec une puissance apparente rayonnée de 50 000 watts et offrirait le service de la Chaîne culturelle de la SRC.

68 Pour la requérante, Sylvain Lafrance, Pierrette Savard, Denis Doucet et Suzanne Lamarre.

APPLICATION / APPLICATION

69 M. LAFRANCE: Mesdames, Messieurs du Conseil, bonjour.

70 Quatre personnes m'accompagnent aujourd'hui pour vous présenter la demande de la Radio française de Radio-Canada pour une licence de radiodiffusion de la Chaîne culturelle à Vancouver.

71 A ma gauche, Mme Pierrette Savard, directrice régionale de la Radio française de Radio-Canada en Colombie-Britannique. A ma droite, M. Denis Doucet, directeur général des ressources et de l'exploitation à la radio et Mme Suzanne Lamarre, premier chef de l'ingénierie nationale.

72 Mon nom est Sylvain Lafrance. Je suis vice-président de la Radio française et des nouveaux médias de Radio-Canada.

73 Notre présentation ce matin sera divisée en cinq parties. D'abord, je vous donnerai les raisons qui motivent notre demande, puis Pierrette Savard vous parlera de la Radio française en Colombie-Britannique. Je vous expliquerai ensuite l'importance de la Chaîne culturelle au Canada. Denis Doucet vous donnera plus de détails sur notre plan national et finalement je vous présenterai le mot de la fin avant de passer à vos questions.

74 Avant toute chose, la demande de la Radio française de Radio-Canada pour sa Chaîne culturelle se distingue nettement des autres demandes que vous entendrez dans le cadre de ces audiences. Notre demande se différencie pour trois raisons principales.

75 D'abord, elle est pour une station de langue française, l'une des deux langues officielles du Canada. Elle émane du mandat conféré à la radio publique canadienne par la Loi sur la radiodiffusion et elle répond en tous points aux attentes du CRTC.

76 La décision que vous prendrez ici à Vancouver aura un impact majeur sur notre développement à long terme, sur l'équilibre de notre programmation et sur le développement du talent canadien.

77 Cette demande concerne la Chaîne culturelle de Radio-canada, l'une des meilleurs de sa catégorie dans le monde. Certaines de ces émissions sont d'ailleurs entendues abondamment à l'étranger. En ondes depuis 1974, cette radio est à 100 pour cent canadienne.

78 La Chaîne culturelle constitue depuis plus de 20 ans un réseau qui ne couvre pour le moment qu'une partie de l'est du pays. Un réseau représentatif de la culture du Canada français dont l'existence déborde les frontières de trois provinces. Une culture qui fait partie de notre tissu national. Une culture qui doit être accessible à tout le pays et le représenter en même temps dans son entièreté parce que cette culture est authentiquement canadienne. La Chaîne culturelle de Radio-Canada enrichira l'offre radiophonique dans la région de Vancouver.

79 Notre demande émane de la radio publique, une radio pensée au début des années 30 par une poignée de Canadiens visionnaires qui ont cru en un système national de radiodiffusion publique.

80 Cette vision a permis de créer une première chaîne en 1936, qui est aujourd'hui notre Première chaîne, puis une seconde presque 40 ans plus tard, la Chaîne culturelle pour laquelle nous demandons aujourd'hui cette fréquence.

81 Ces deux chaînes sont complémentaires et doivent le devenir de plus en plus dans notre système de radiodiffusion publique qui contribue à unir les Canadiens en leur permettant de mieux se connaître, de mieux se comprendre, parce qu'il existe véritablement une culture canadienne et cette culture, nous la présentons en français à la Chaîne culturelle de la radio de Radio-Canada.

82 Enfin, notre demande répond aux attentes du CRTC qui lors du récent renouvellement de nos licences exprimait que :

"En Colombie-Britannique, tous les résidents n'ont pas accès au signal radio ... de la SRC".

83 Dans ce même document, le Conseil écrivait ensuite, et je cite, :

"Une grande préoccupation soulevée par certains auditeurs francophones est l'absence du service de la Chaîne culturelle dans leur communauté".

84 Dans cette décision 2000-2, publiée le 6 janvier 2000, vous nous avez demandé d'agir :

"Le Conseil ... s'attend donc que la Chaîne culturelle étende le rayonnement de son service à au moins 50 pour cent de la population de langue française de chaque province d'ici la fin de la période d'application de la licence ...".

85 Selon les dernières données de Statistique Canada, plus de 60 pour cent de la population de langue maternelle française de la Colombie-Britannique vit dans la grande région de Vancouver. Ces chiffres sont essentiels à la compréhension de notre demande.

86 C'est pour répondre aux droits et aux besoins des francophones, à notre mission de service public et à vos attentes que nous sommes ici aujourd'hui devant vous. Le rôle de Vancouver est fondamental dans le développement de notre radio. Les programmations de nos deux chaînes doivent être complémentaires et cet équilibre sera impossible à atteindre si la Chaîne culturelle n'est pas nationale et pan-canadienne.

87 Enfin, Vancouver est essentielle dans notre stratégie de développement et d'expression du talent canadien.

88 La fréquence 94,5 FM est la dernière fréquence nous permettant de rejoindre plus de 50 pour cent de la population francophone de la province, tel que souhaité par votre institution dans sa décision 2000-2 et de remplir nos objectifs. A long terme, votre décision cette année sur Vancouver va influencer l'épanouissement culturel de toute une nation.

89 Je vous invite maintenant à entendre Mme Pierrette Savard, directrice de la Radio française de Radio-Canada à Vancouver, qui va vous faire découvrir la Colombie-Britannique et sa métropole à travers la vie de ses francophones.

90 Mme SAVARD: Merci, Sylvain.

91 Je vais vous parler de Vancouver et ses Franco-Colombiens.

92 Dans la troisième ville du pays, Vancouver, que vit aussi la majorité des francophones de la province qui constituent la troisième minorité francophone hors Québec.

93 La contribution des Canadiens- français au développement de la Colombie-Britannique remonte au 18^e siècle. Graduellement, ils ont fondé des paroisses, des écoles et des associations à travers la province. A ces pionniers se sont ajoutés des immigrants dont la langue première ou seconde est le français. Aujourd'hui, Statistique Canada estime que plus de 130 000 personnes à Vancouver connaissent le français.

94 C'est d'abord pour eux que la Chaîne culturelle veut établir une antenne à Vancouver. La programmation de la Chaîne est innovatrice, audacieuse et créatrice, à l'image de la côte ouest. Sa production musicale à 80 pour cent se distingue par l'étendue des genres musicaux : classique, jazz, opéra, contemporain, musiques du monde; par la production et la diffusion de musique que la Chaîne enregistre elle-même ou présente en direct, favorisant ainsi l'essor des talents canadiens et par un volet d'émissions axées sur le savoir, la création et la réflexion. Et tout ça en français!

--- Présentation vidéo / Video Presentation

95 La vie culturelle de la côte ouest est extrêmement riche et la Chaîne culturelle pourrait la faire connaître dans tout le Canada français, franchissant les Rocheuses, les Prairies, les provinces de l'est jusqu'à l'Atlantique.

96 Nos trois principales universités -- l'Université de la Colombie-Britannique, l'Université Simon Fraser et l'Université de Victoria -- ont des facultés de musique qui sont de véritables pépinières de jeunes talents, dont certains sont maintenant reconnus mondialement. Je pense ici à John Kimura Parker, Angela Cheng, ou Ben Heppner.

97 Il y a ici une foule d'organismes et d'événements de toutes sortes qui pourraient à leur tout enrichir la programmation de la Chaîne culturelle. Nous pourrions ainsi avoir la possibilité de capter pas moins de 150 concerts par année, des concerts de musique classique, baroque, folk ou de jazz, présentés par des organismes comme l'Orchestre symphonique et l'Opéra de Vancouver, l'Orchestre symphonique de Radio-Canada à Vancouver, le Vancouver Recital Society, le Festival de musique de chambre, le Festival Vancouver, le Festival de jazz de Vancouver ou le Vancouver Folk Music Festival, le plus ancien du genre au pays.

98 Enfin, toute une gamme de bourses, de concours et de prix sont offerts chaque année par la Chaîne culturelle de Radio-Canada. Les Vancouvérois y ont droit aussi, mais ils ne peuvent pas entendre les lauréats. La Chaîne culturelle ne se rend pas chez eux! Il faut donc combler cette lacune le plus tôt possible.

99 Si nos compatriotes anglophones peuvent capter CBC Radio Two, pourquoi les francophones ne pourraient-ils pas eux aussi capter la Chaîne culturelle?

100 Depuis des années, les artisans de la Radio française à Vancouver créent des émissions pour la Chaîne culturelle. Je pense à Ici Vancouver, Silence ... on jazz! et Les lieux qui chantent. Mais pour les diffuser ici, nous devons les insérer dans la programmation de Première chaîne à la place d'émissions dont nos auditeurs sont injustement privés.

101 En même temps, comme ils nous le disent et nous l'écrivent depuis quelques années, nos auditeurs en ont assez de ne recevoir que des brides de programmation de la Chaîne culturelle. Ils veulent l'ensemble et ils ont bien raison.

102 En anglais comme en français, la radio publique compte deux chaînes. Comme leurs compatriotes de langue anglaise, les Vancouverois de langue française ont droit aux mêmes services. Ils ont eu la Première chaîne en 1967, année du centenaire de la Confédération canadienne. Pour célébrer le nouveau millénaire, donnons leur maintenant la chaîne complémentaire française, la Chaîne culturelle de Radio-Canada. Ils y ont droit et ils l'attendent depuis fort longtemps.

103 Je redonne maintenant la parole au président de la Radio française et responsable des nouveaux médias de Radio-Canada, M. Sylvain Lafrance.

104 M. LAFRANCE: Merci, Pierrette.

105 Comme CBC en anglais avec Radio One et Radio Two, la Radio française de Radio-Canada compte donc deux chaînes, l'une consacrée à l'actualité et à la chanson, c'est la Première chaîne. La seconde plus récente consacrée à la musique et aux différentes formes d'art, c'est la Chaîne culturelle pour laquelle nous demandons aujourd'hui cette fréquence.

106 La Première chaîne et la Chaîne culturelle sont appelées à devenir complémentaires comme le sont Radio One et Radio Two. La complexité de la culture canadienne le demande. Une chaîne, la Première, pour des événements plus variés, et une seconde pour la culture et les talents d'ici.

107 Au cours des sept prochaines années, la contribution financière de la Radio française de Radio-Canada dans le développement des talents canadiens atteindra 18 millions de dollars. Il serait dommage que les auditoires francophones et anglophones de la Colombie-Britannique soient privés d'une partie d'investissements aussi importants dans le talent canadien.

108 Ces chiffres sont dans votre décision du 6 janvier dernier où on peut lire aussi:

"Le Conseil félicite la titulaire de son importante contribution au développement du talent canadien et s'attend qu'elle maintienne, voire même qu'elle accroisse, ses contributions tout au long de la période d'application des licences".

109 Nous sommes dans cette nouvelle période et pour arriver à accroître cette contribution tout en étendant notre action nationale en fonction d'une stratégie cohérente, il faut maintenant que la Chaîne culturelle ait une antenne à Vancouver.

110 Quatre-vingts pour cent de la programmation de la Chaîne culturelle de Radio-Canada est consacrée à la musique. Notre Chaîne culturelle joue un rôle majeur dans l'activité musicale canadienne en versant près de 60 pour cent de son budget de production musicale en cachets de musiciens.

111 La Chaîne culturelle favorise le développement de la musique d'aujourd'hui en diffusant la musique des compositeurs de notre époque et en commandant chaque saison la création d'oeuvres originales. Les musiques actuelles, électroniques et l'art radio s'ajoutent à la gamme des univers musicaux de la Chaîne culturelle. Le jazz y occupe une belle place et la Chaîne est le témoin du patrimoine national par la diffusion et la production de musiques traditionnelles.

112 C'est aussi une radio unique, intégrée à la vie musicale par l'étendue de ses partenariats avec à peu près tous les festivals de musique dans son rayonnement. Ces partenariats se traduisent chaque été par des dizaines d'enregistrements et de diffusions et un engagement constant dans le développement de concerts radiophoniques originaux. Vancouver doit faire partie intégrante de ces réalisations.

113 La Chaîne culturelle fait entendre au-delà de 2 500 musiciens canadiens par année en plus de permettre à 250 comédiens et à une vingtaine d'auteurs d'y trouver un mode d'expression de premier choix.

114 Nos émissions émanent de plusieurs centres et témoignent de la richesse artistique du pays. La troisième ville de ce pays doit faire partie du réseau de la Chaîne culturelle d'autant plus que les artistes canadiens participant à nos émissions courent la chance d'être entendus non seulement au Canada mais ailleurs dans le monde par des dizaines de millions d'auditeurs grâce à nos ententes avec les grandes radios publiques européennes avec qui nous avons une collaboration soutenue.

115 La Chaîne culturelle de Radio-Canada est une radio unique, une radio pour les francophones nés ici, pour les francophones nouvellement arrivés, pour les francophiles et pour les anglophones qui, comme vous, apprécient les belles choses en français.

116 Je cède maintenant la parole à notre directeur général des ressources et de l'exploitation, Denis Doucet.

117 M. DOUCET: Merci, Sylvain.

118 Selon la Loi de la radiodiffusion, le service de Radio-Canada doit être offert partout au Canada de la manière la plus adéquate et efficace au fur et à mesure de la disponibilité des budgets.

119 Nous avons dégagé les budgets nécessaires. Nous avons pris l'engagement d'étendre le réseau de la Chaîne culturelle à plus de 50 pour cent des francophones dans chaque province.

120 Nous devons maintenant obtenir une fréquence à Vancouver et cette fréquence c'est le 94,5, la dernière qui nous permettra de répondre à vos attentes, soit de rejoindre au moins 50 pour cent des francophones de la province.

121 Le réseau de la Chaîne culturelle s'étend actuellement de Moncton à Toronto mais la culture canadienne de langue française ne s'arrête pas en Ontario. Elle va jusqu'à la côte du Pacifique. C'est pourquoi la Chaîne culturelle doit y être aussi, comme elle devrait être présente également au cours des prochaines années dans 19 autres villes dont Edmonton, Régina, Calgary, Winnipeg, Halifax, Charlottetown et St. John's.

122 Vancouver est cruciale dans ce plan parce que c'est le centre culturel de la troisième minorité francophone hors Québec. La fréquence 94,5 est la dernière de cette classe disponible dans la région de Vancouver où vivent plus de 60 pour cent des francophones de la Colombie-Britannique. D'autres solutions, comme un canal de classe A, ne nous permettraient de couvrir qu'environ 20 pour cent de la population francophone de la province.

123 Donc pour respecter vos attentes, soit le seuil de 50 pour cent, pour respecter les droits de la minorité francophone et l'accès de tous les Canadiens à leur culture en utilisant judicieusement les fonds publics, votre choix est clair : accordez à la Chaîne culturelle la fréquence 94,5 à Vancouver l'outil dont elle a besoin pour rejoindre plus de 60 pour cent de la population francophone de la province.

124 Je vous remercie. Je laisse maintenant le mot de la fin à Sylvain Lafrance.

125 M. LAFRANCE: Nous sommes absolument convaincus qu'il faut permettre à la Chaîne culturelle d'être entendue sur cette fréquence à Vancouver. C'est la seule et dernière fréquence qui nous permette à la fois de répondre aux droits et aux besoins des milliers de francophones de la région, de remplir notre mission culturelle pan-canadienne, de répondre à vos attentes en Colombie-Britannique, d'avoir une programmation par laquelle les contenus de nos deux chaînes se compléteront pour constituer un tout, une offre radiophonique publique nationale et intégrale pour tous les francophones et enfin de donner à tous les Canadiens accès à la culture canadienne.

126 Les nouveaux arrivants -- et Vancouver en accueille beaucoup -- doivent être exposés à la culture canadienne et cette culture se conjugue aussi en français.

127 Vous entendrez au cours des jours qui viennent d'autres requérants qui veulent cette fréquence pour diffuser du jazz, de la musique urbaine, classique, multi-ethnique. Nous avons déjà tous ces types de musique dans notre programmation et en plus nous faisons des concerts et nous encourageons le talent canadien.

128 Il nous faut cette fréquence pour remplir adéquatement le mandat que vous nous avez donné. Si nous ne l'obtenons pas, la Chaîne culturelle ne pourra pas rejoindre 50 pour cent des francophones de la Colombie-Britannique. Rappelez-vous que c'est la dernière fréquence de cette classe disponible ici à Vancouver.

129 Cette fréquence aura une influence majeure sur notre développement à long terme, sur l'équilibre de notre programmation, sur le développement et l'expression du talent canadien.

130 La Chaîne culturelle de Radio-Canada doit être entendue ici. C'est la métropole d'une des plus grandes provinces du pays. C'est un centre culturel majeur et c'est là que vit la majorité des francophones de Colombie-Britannique.

131 Nous croyons fermement que Vancouver doit aussi participer à la culture canadienne de langue française. Il nous faut cette fréquence pour que notre réseau puisse faire connaître en français la culture de notre pays d'un océan à l'autre.

132 Le plan d'action à moyen terme de la Radio française de Radio-Canada est de positionner la Chaîne culturelle comme la principale plaque tournante des francophones en matière culturelle. Pour y arriver, il faut pour nous jouer la complémentarité de nos deux chaînes publiques.

133 Donc un élément essentiel et vital du plan d'action du diffuseur public canadien commande que la Chaîne culturelle soit une chaîne pan-canadienne. Vous avez aujourd'hui une chance unique de permettre au service public d'atteindre ses objectifs de célébration du talent canadien, de nous permettre de répondre à vos attentes pour le développement de la Chaîne culturelle et de donner tout son sens à la Loi canadienne de la radiodiffusion et à l'esprit de ceux qui ont créé pour ce pays un système mixte de radiodiffusion, c'est-à-dire l'enrichissement de l'offre par un équilibre juste entre le secteur public et le secteur privé.

134 Je vous remercie, Mesdames et Messieurs, et nous sommes maintenant prêts à répondre à vos questions.

135 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci beaucoup.

136 Commissioner Demers will question you.

137 CONSEILLER DEMERS: Merci. Merci, Madame la Présidente. Bonjour, Messieurs, bonjour, Madame.

138 Vous m'excuserez. La climatisation des hôtels de semble pas être en accord avec ma gorge.

139 La première question, ou le premier chapitre un peu court que je voudrais toucher, c'est la programmation actuelle de votre Chaîne culturelle quant à Vancouver, quant à la région de l'ouest.

140 Est-ce que vous pouvez -- et je pense que c'est vous qui nous avez donné ce matin la programmation -- est-ce que quelqu'un pourrait pointer actuellement ce qui se fait sur la Chaîne culturelle et qui se rapporte à la région du Pacifique.

141 M. LAFRANCE: Je vais demander dans 30 secondes à Pierrette Savard de vous parler plus spécifiquement de ce qu'on fait actuellement ici, mais il y a une chose qu'il faut bien comprendre de ce qu'est la Chaîne culturelle.

142 La Chaîne culturelle est une chaîne qui n'est pas décentralisée comme, par exemple, la Première chaîne qui offre des émissions régionales dans chacune des régions. C'est une chaîne qui est déconcentrée, c'est-à-dire qu'elle produit des émissions dans toutes les régions, mais ce sont toujours des émissions nationales. Son but premier est d'exposer la culture canadienne à l'ensemble du pays.

143 Sur ce plan-là, elle joue un rôle complémentaire et un rôle assez différent de beaucoup d'autres stations de radio. Donc beaucoup de concerts, à titre d'exemple, peuvent être captés dans la région de Vancouver, présentés à la Chaîne culturelle ou à travers le monde parce que le but de cette chaîne-là est la diffusion de la culture à travers le pays.

144 Donc il ne faut pas la voir de la même façon qu'on verrait une radio de la Première chaîne et l'évaluer en fonction des heures locales de programmation parce qu'elle s'inscrit dans une logique qui est une logique de créer un lien dans le monde de la culture pour l'ensemble du pays.

145 Mais peut-être que Pierrette peut donner des exemples de ce qu'on produit déjà à Vancouver.

146 Mme SAVARD: Présentement nous produisons Ici Vancouver qui est diffusé cinq jours semaine, en soirée et nous avons aussi Silence ... on jazz! qui est diffusé dans tout le pays le samedi soir, et aussi Les lieux qui chantent qui est diffusé le dimanche matin sur tout l'ensemble du pays également.

147 Nous avons capté l'été dernier plusieurs concerts. Il y a eu une trentaine de concerts de diffusés à partir de -- des concerts qui ont été produits ici, à Vancouver.

148 Donc nos émissions permettent de découvrir les talents d'ici et aussi de faire découvrir aux gens d'ici les talents de partout à travers le pays et même dans le monde également.

149 Grosso modo c'est ce qu'on fait pour cette année et on a des projets pour l'an prochain, bien sûr.

150 CONSEILLER DEMERS: Merci.

151 Alors Ici Vancouver, à titre d'exemple, est ici indiqué donc à une heure. C'est l'heure locale, évidement. Vous avez sûrement --

152 M. LAFRANCE: Excusez, c'est l'heure de l'est actuellement parce que la diffusion se fait de Moncton à Toronto. On n'a pas de décalage horaire pour l'Atlantique, donc c'est l'horaire que vous avez pour l'est du pays actuellement.

153 CONSEILLER DEMERS: Donc si j'ai bien saisi à quelle heure est Ici Vancouver à Vancouver?

154 Mme SAVARD: Le dimanche, par exemple, on diffuse à la Chaîne culturelle Les lieux qui chantent à midi mais c'est diffusé ici à neuf heures. C'est ce que j'expliquais un petit peu dans ma présentation, c'est que souvent avec le décalage horaire on doit couper des émissions de la Première chaîne qui sont diffusées ailleurs dans le pays pour pouvoir, nous à partir de Vancouver, diffuser ces émissions-là qui sont diffusées sur la Chaîne culturelle et qui ne seraient pas entendues par les gens de la grande région de Vancouver ou de la province ici à Vancouver.

155 Donc on doit couper les émissions de la Première chaîne pour pouvoir diffuser les émissions qu'on produit ici à Vancouver sur la Chaîne culturelle.

156 CONSEILLER DEMERS: On a un projet ici et non pas la réalité.

157 Mme SAVARD: C'est le principal inconvénient de ne pas avoir la Chaîne culturelle à Vancouver.

158 CONSEILLER DEMERS: D'accord.

159 Mais c'est représentatif quand même des émissions qui proviennent de l'ouest -- je devrais dire du Pacifique -- qui sont actuellement sur la Chaîne culturelle.

160 Mme SAVARD: Oui.

161 CONSEILLER DEMERS: Donc avez-vous pu additionner le tout et donner une idée du nombre d'heures ou de minutes que vous avez?

162 Mme SAVARD: Pour les concerts que l'on diffuse, on diffuse huit heures semaine, mais ça c'est vraiment à part des concerts qu'on fait durant l'année.

163 CONSEILLER DEMERS: Mais encore là j'ai bien compris que c'est dans votre projet.

164 M. LAFRANCE: Actuellement nous le faisons déjà par un mixte de programmation sur la Première chaîne ici, mais ça nous oblige à couper des émissions de la Première chaîne sur Vancouver pour diffuser des émissions de la Chaîne culturelle actuellement ce qui n'est pas très heureux comme mixte de programmation.

165 CONSEILLER DEMERS: D'accord.

166 Je m'en tiens à votre situation actuelle sur la Chaîne culturelle. Vous avez combien d'heures à peu près que vous diffusez qui sont des émissions qui proviennent -- dont le contenu vient du Pacifique et qui sont entendues actuellement par les autres Canadiens?

167 M. LAFRANCE: Huit heures semaine plus l'ensemble des concerts.

168 CONSEILLER DEMERS: Donc transposé ça dans votre projet pour la radio ici en programmation, ça serait quoi en résumé la programmation dans ce cadre-là?

169 M. LAFRANCE: Grosso modo le nombre d'heures locales ne changerait pas tellement sinon l'inclusion de services locaux d'information sur la culture. Mais il faut toujours se rappeler que dans la logique des grandes chaînes culturelles, que ce soit ici ou partout ailleurs où on retrouve de grandes chaînes culturelles publiques, l'intérêt premier n'est pas l'information locale ou la présence locale. C'est la diffusion de la culture sur l'ensemble du territoire et c'est l'intérêt premier.

170 Donc le projet effectivement pour l'instant maintient le nombre d'heures de production locale sur Vancouver.

171 CONSEILLER DEMERS: Là vous avez parlé d'émissions locales maintenant parce que les autres sont dans le fond des émissions faites ici et reproduites sur toute la chaîne, mais étant donné que votre projet inclut une fréquence à Vancouver, là vous ajoutez à ces heures-là approximativement combien d'heures?

172 Mme SAVARD: On parle de 20 minutes, 20 minutes par jour, d'informations. Comme Info-Culture n'est jamais diffusée ici tandis que c'est diffusé partout dans le pays où on parle des événements culturels dans chaque grande province -- grande ville, c'est-à-dire. Et puis on ajoutera des concerts aussi de plus à ce moment-là parce qu'on veut quand même augmenter notre production de concerts étant donné que ça sera diffusé ici aussi, ce qui aidera à faire découvrir d'autres talents au niveau de la ville.

173 CONSEILLER DEMERS: Et si vous augmentez ce nombre de concerts, comme vous le disiez tout à l'heure, ça sera diffusé à la grandeur du pays.

174 Mme SAVARD: Exactement.

175 CONSEILLER DEMERS: Merci.

176 Alors je vais maintenant aller à une question un peu plus technique et vous comprendrez que ce n'est pas ma spécialité mais quand même je veux toucher la question des fréquences, le fait que votre demande est en concurrence avec plusieurs autres demandes qui veulent utiliser la même fréquence que vous.

177 Alors c'est dans ce contexte-là que je vais vous poser quelques questions.

178 Peut-être pour introduire ces quelques questions, je vous référerais au fait qu'il y a des intervenants, des personnes intervenant dans votre dossier, mais des demandeurs, qui ont suggéré d'autres fréquences que la Chaîne culturelle puisse utiliser.

179 Alors je les nomme pour fins de s'en parler. Alors un des demandeurs a suggéré 88,1 ou 88,3. Une autre suggestion, 91.9 ou 92,3 et une autre, 106,9 ou 107,1. Dans votre cas, vous n'avez proposé aucune autre fréquence de rechange pouvant convenir soit à la vôtre ou soit à celle de radiodiffuseurs privés qui sont vos concurrents pour la fréquence d'aujourd'hui.

180 Alors la première question dans ce contexte-là : avez-vous mené des études pour trouver des fréquences FM de rechange pouvant être utilisées à Vancouver et satisfaire à votre demande ou à celle d'un radiodiffuseur privé?

181 M. LAFRANCE: Je vais donner la parole dans 30 secondes à Denis Doucet, mais je voudrais avant d'abord remercier les diffuseurs privés qui s'empressent toujours de trouver des solutions techniques pour le service public. Je les remercie beaucoup de s'en occuper à ce point-là.

182 Il y a une chose importante. Notre intérêt et notre plan à long terme c'est de faire de la Chaîne culturelle une chaîne culturelle pan-canadienne de grande qualité en français. C'est l'intérêt que nous poursuivons maintenant. Vancouver est une partie de ce plan que nous vous avons soumis de façon plus générale plus tôt.

183 C'est pour moi extrêmement important de comprendre ça et la diffusion de musique classique, la diffusion des grands orchestres canadiens commande quand même une qualité de réception qui est correcte et qui rejoint l'objectif que nous avons de parler à au-delà de 50 pour cent des francophones de la Colombie-Britannique. Il nous faut donc une fréquence importante.

184 La réponse c'est oui, nous avons mené des études. La réponse est non, nous n'avons pas d'autres solutions, et je peux peut-être demander à Denis Doucet de le préciser.

185 M. DOUCET: Merci, Sylvain.

186 Si on n'a pas donné d'autres alternatives exactement c'est parce que pour rejoindre 50 pour cent des francophones on doit utiliser une puissance qui est plus élevée. Si on prend les propositions telles que vous les avez énumérées, dans le cas du 88,1 ou 88,3, on ne pourrait utiliser qu'une classe A, donc une puissance beaucoup plus faible. Dans le cas du 91,9, c'est la même situation. Ce serait aussi un classe A, donc avec une puissance plus faible. Je reviendrai après sur la conséquence des puissances plus faibles.

187 Dans le cas du 92,3, cette fréquence est en conflit avec une fréquence similaire qui est utilisée à haute puissance à Victoria. Dans le cas du 106,9 ou 107,1, qui sont adjacents, c'est la même chose. On serait limités à une faible puissance de classe A.

188 Le problème se pose de la façon suivante : c'est qu'utiliser un classe A à Vancouver ça nous oblige à réduire notre puissance significativement, donc de réduire le nombre de francophones qui seront rejoints. La proposition qu'on a faite nous permet de rejoindre 60 pour cent des francophones de la Colombie-Britannique parce que, comme Sylvain l'a mentionné, les francophones sont concentrés dans la région de Vancouver.

189 Si on utilise une petite fréquence, on réduit l'atteinte des francophones ou le rayonnement dans les marchés francophones à 20 pour cent de la province, et à 20 pour cent on n'atteindra jamais le 50 pour cent sur lequel on s'était entendus et sur lequel la décision 2000-2 nous demandait -- en fait, le CRTC avait des attentes qu'on atteigne 50 pour cent des francophones de chacune des provinces.

190 Ça fait que dans toutes ces alternatives, finalement le problème est un problème de puissance. C'est qu'on ne pourra pas rejoindre suffisamment de francophones.

191 M. LAFRANCE: Si je peux dire une chose aussi qui me semble très importante dans le cas de la Chaîne culturelle, c'est qu'il ne faudrait pas partir de calculs mathématiques sur le nombre de francophones parce que la Chaîne culturelle ne parle pas qu'aux francophones. La Chaîne culturelle vise à célébrer le talent canadien pour l'ensemble des auditeurs qui veulent écouter une chaîne de cette qualité-là et l'expérience de Toronto nous démontre bien que les anglophones sont nombreux à l'écoute de la Chaîne culturelle.

192 Donc je ferais très attention pour une chaîne du service public de ne pas l'enfermer dans une logique qui serait mathématique et qui nous mènerait nulle part, et sur ce plan-là je ne vois pas pourquoi une fréquence de classe B, comme celle qui est suggérée par nos nombreux concurrents, ne serait pas bonne pour eux de la même façon, exactement de la même façon. Je ne comprends pas pourquoi une chaîne de moins bonne qualité serait une chaîne correcte pour le service public et qu'elle ne serait pas une chaîne correcte pour le service privé.

193 Sur le plan historique, je vais mentionner une chose. Dans le marché de Vancouver il y a 30 ans, il y avait huit stations privées, trois stations du service public. Aujourd'hui il y a 17 stations du service privé et encore seulement trois stations du service public. Il n'y a pas eu d'abus du service public dans le développement de nouvelles fréquences sur Vancouver.

194 CONSEILLER DEMERS: Merci.

195 Mon autre question vous y avez peut-être répondu, mais ça vous permet, si vous voulez ajouter.

196 Alors pourquoi 94,5 devrait être attribuée à vous plutôt qu'à un autre demander?

197 M. LAFRANCE: Parce que je pense que l'équilibre général du système -- le système canadien de radiodiffusion est fondé, en tout cas au moins dans son esprit, sur un certain nombre d'équilibre, l'équilibre entre le secteur privé et le secteur public, l'équilibre entre les stations de nature régionale et celles qui visent à créer des liens à l'échelle de la nation -- et ça c'est un autre équilibre important -- l'équilibre entre les services français et les services anglais et je devrais dire maintenant les services pour les autres communautés culturelles du pays. L'ensemble de ces équilibres doit être pris en considération et il faut faire attention de ne pas considérer une audience comme celle-ci comme ne devant satisfaire qu'un seul de ces équilibres-là.

198 Moi je pense que de façon générale la Société Radio-Canada a indiqué dans son plan d'action qui vous a été soumis lors des audiences de renouvellement de Radio-Canada, nous vous avons indiqué notre intention de faire de la Chaîne culturelle une grande chaîne pan-canadienne pour la célébration de la culture en langue française. Ça passe par l'obtention de fréquences dans différents marchés et je dirais qu'il n'y a aucun de ces marchés-là qui n'est pas important, particulièrement le marché de Vancouver parce que c'est une ville importante.

199 C'est une ville importante point, et c'est une ville importante en français puisque la Colombie-Britannique représente, je pense, la troisième province en importance au niveau du nombre de francophones à l'extérieur du Québec. Ce n'est pas rien. Donc un trou dans notre chaîne pan-canadienne à Vancouver serait extrêmement nuisible et rendrait notre projet un peu caduque. Ce serait majeur pour nous à l'intérieur de notre plan de développement ce que ça causerait.

200 Donc je pense que cette fréquence, qui est une fréquence de qualité, devrait au nom de différents équilibres être accordée au service public.

201 CONSEILLER DEMERS: Merci.

202 Mon autre question est une question pessimiste.

203 Si pour une raison ou pour une autre la fréquence 94,5 n'était pas disponible à Vancouver, pour une raison ou pour une autre, comme je dis, seriez-vous disposés à utiliser une autre fréquence FM? Peut-être encore là vous avez répondu, mais ça vous donne l'occasion de répondre très particulièrement à ces points.

204 M. LAFRANCE: C'est-à-dire que nous ne connaissons pas d'autres solutions qui nous permettraient de remplir nos objectifs dans la région de Vancouver. Nous n'en connaissons pas.

205 Denis, veux-tu ajouter quelque chose?

206 M. DOUCET: Je ne crois pas.

207 CONSEILLER DEMERS: Merci.

208 Alors je vais passer à la bande AM -- vous devez me voir venir. Alors un autre scénario a été proposé par les autres demandeurs, que l'émetteur de la Première chaîne de Radio-Canada utilise une fréquence AM et que la Chaîne culturelle utilise 97,7, le canal 249C. Cet arrangement ferait le pendant que vous vivez avec la programmation de langue anglaise à Vancouver.

209 Alors quels sont vos commentaires sur cette suggestion?

210 M. LAFRANCE: Je veux encore une fois remercier mes collègues de leur immense créativité sur le transfert des chaînes.

211 CBUF Vancouver est une station qui est ici depuis 1967. C'est 30 ans d'habitudes d'écoute en radio sur CBUF. Ce n'est pas rien et ce n'est pas simple à changer.

212 Et je vais vous parler pendant 30 secondes de la Première chaîne. La Première chaîne de Radio-Canada ce n'est pas l'équivalent, pour ceux qui sont plus familiers, à Radio One. La Première chaîne de Radio-Canada n'est pas l'équivalent de Radio One, c'est-à-dire que ce n'est pas à proprement parler une chaîne d'informations. C'est une chaîne dans la tradition des grandes chaînes généralistes. C'est la chaîne par laquelle nous faisons le développement notamment de la chanson.

213 Nous sommes associés à 17 festivals de chansons à travers le pays. Nous diffusons énormément de chansons. Nous sommes la radio qui diffuse la plus grande variété de chansons à l'intérieur d'une seule semaine et ce sont des chansons francophones à 90 pour cent et des chansons canadiennes largement.

214 Pour moi c'est donc très, très, très difficile de dire que cette chaîne-là pourrait être diffusée en AM. Actuellement on est à peu près sur la logique contraire d'essayer d'amener lentement, marché par marché, là où ça se justifie, de ramener la Première chaîne sur le FM comme on l'a fait à Montréal il y a deux ans, et la chose nous a prouvé qu'effectivement cette chaîne-là est mieux servie par le FM.

215 Une autre chose c'est que dans les objectifs du diffuseur public, il est extrêmement important de rejoindre des auditeurs plus jeunes partout où nous demeurons sur le AM, partout où nous installons sur le AM le problème que la courbe des âges sur le AM nous pose qui nous pose de sérieuses difficultés parce qu'effectivement ça ne nous permet pas de rejoindre des audiences plus jeunes, particulièrement à l'extérieur du Québec où je pourrais vous dire que quand on fait des tournées de consultation chez les francophones à l'extérieur du Québec, ce qu'on nous dit d'abord c'est, "Essayez de vous occuper de nos jeunes. Essayez de faire des émissions pour les jeunes".

216 Alors on a développé avec les années des émissions qui ont beaucoup de succès comme MacAdam Tribu ou Bande à part, des émissions qui sont populaires auprès des jeunes. Ces émissions-là ne pourraient pas être diffusées sur bande AM. Ce serait un illogisme total que d'amener ces émissions-là sur bande AM.

217 Alors pour nous ça se serait pas du tout une solution viable que de ramener la Première chaîne au AM parce que ça serait un recul majeur sur le développement de la chanson. Donc ça ne nous semblerait pas une solution viable.

218 CONSEILLER DEMERS: Est-ce que je peux conclure que vous n'avez pas fait d'études sur la possibilité d'utiliser une fréquence AM?

219 M. DOUCET: On a fait des études, on a demandé à des consultants externes de déterminer quelle serait, si c'était le cas, la meilleure fréquence AM qui pourrait être utilisée dans la région de Vancouver.

220 Naturellement, le marché de Vancouver est très occupé et il y a beaucoup de restrictions dans l'utilisation de fréquences. La meilleure fréquence qui a été identifiée est une fréquence qui au départ nous obligerait à dire à 10 000 francophones qui reçoivent actuellement le service de la Première chaîne, on leur dirait, "Nous regrettons mais dorénavant vous ne pourrez plus recevoir le service". Premier impact.

221 Deuxième impact c'est une fréquence qui n'est pas protégée donc lorsque le soleil se couche, c'est-à-dire la nuit, la puissance est réduite très, très, très significativement. D'ailleurs une région comme ici, ce matin quand je me suis levé il faisait noir, j'avais accès à la Première chaîne. Si on était sur AM, dans les meilleures études qu'on a faites, je n'aurais pas reçu le signal avant que le soleil ne se lève. C'est le gros, gros problème des fréquences AM qui ne sont pas protégées lorsque le soleil se couche. Donc à certaines périodes de l'année, il se couche très tôt et il se lève très tard. Nous devons réduire la puissance très, très significativement.

222 Donc la puissance de nuit en AM est encore pire que les alternatives FM dont on discutait tout à l'heure.

223 On a les études. Si vous souhaitez on peut déposer la carte de rayonnement qui a été préparée par l'ingénieur externe et qui démontre clairement les zones qui deviendraient non-desservies.

224 M. LAFRANCE: Si je peux exprimer. Il y a un paradoxe auquel on fait face souvent nous parce que nous gérons des chaînes nationales, c'est notre rôle de le faire et c'est important pour nous de le faire. Il est très difficile d'adopter des solutions locales sans détruire le plan d'action d'ensemble.

225 Nous avons dit, quand on vous a rencontrés pour les audiences nationales, que nous ferons de la Première chaîne une grande chaîne généraliste extrêmement présente dans le développement de la chanson française. Nous ferons de la Chaîne culturelle une chaîne pan-canadienne de célébration de la culture d'ici.

226 Ça nécessite des fréquences qui sont des fréquences de qualité. Sans cela, ça défait le plan par petits morceaux et quand on est dans des audiences locales, on peut toujours trouver une solution locale ici, une solution locale là. Ce que ça fait c'est que ça détricote le plan d'ensemble à chaque fois et à ce moment-là on perdrait de vue ce qui est essentiel pour nous, la gestion de grandes chaînes nationales du service public.

227 Je serais très, très, très prudent à adopter des solutions locales qui viennent déconstruire le plan d'action d'ensemble sur lequel on s'entend généralement dans des audiences d'ensemble.

228 CONSEILLER DEMERS: Alors les fréquences AM, ça ne fait pas partie de votre plan.

229 Quant à la production du document, je vais laisser à Madame la Présidente de donner peut-être sa décision là-dessus. Ça serait intéressant.

230 Encore là j'ai une question sur une fréquence AM et je pense que vous y avez répondu.

231 Un dernier volet, c'est le rapport qu'a votre demande actuelle à Vancouver avec votre projet de Victoria. Peut-être quelques questions là-dessus.

232 Alors dans votre demande du 21 juin 2000 concernant Victoria, laquelle devrait également être traitée dans le cadre de cette audience, vous avez indiqué que l'émetteur prévu de la Chaîne culturelle de Vancouver vous permettrait de desservir 90 pour cent des francophones de la Colombie-Britannique. On l'a vu.

233 Je vais tout vous lire pour ensuite poser la question. Pour cette raison, et compte tenu de la pénurie de fréquences FM à Victoria, vous avez décidé de retirer votre demande antérieure concernant la Chaîne culturelle à Victoria. Vous demandez actuellement l'autorisation d'utiliser la même fréquence 88,9 pour la Première chaîne.

234 Alors la question est la suivante : Avez-vous l'intention d'offrir un service à Victoria avec l'émetteur proposé?

235 M. DOUCET: Un service de la Première chaîne?

236 CONSEILLER DEMERS: Oui.

237 M. LAFRANCE: Nous avons très fermement l'intention si nous obtenons cette licence de l'exploiter et d'offrir le service de la Première chaîne à Victoria rapidement.

238 CONSEILLER DEMERS: Est-ce que ça serait un service fiable? Est-ce qu'il y a une question de fiabilité de la fréquence ou du service technique?

239 M. DOUCET: Non, je crois que tel que ça été stipulé dans la proposition qu'on a faite lorsqu'on a -- probablement qu'on s'en rappellera. La décision était qu'une licence était accordée mais nous devions proposer une nouvelle fréquence. Dans la proposition de cette nouvelle fréquence, nous avons donné tous les paramètres techniques et nous sommes -- je pense qu'on a fait toutes les études nécessaires pour être très confiants que les paramètres techniques qui sont identifiés dans notre proposition seront respectés et dès que le Conseil, s'il le veut bien, nous autorise à démarrer l'exploitation nous allons démarrer immédiatement le projet pour l'installation.

240 CONSEILLER DEMERS: Pouvez-vous indiquer quel serait l'impact sur vos plans concernant Victoria si la demande relative à la Chaîne culturelle à Vancouver était modifiée?

241 M. LAFRANCE: Je ne suis pas certain de comprendre.

242 CONSEILLER DEMERS: Alors vous avez une demande pour Vancouver. Alors s'il devait y avoir modification, si vous ne deviez pas obtenir soit la fréquence, par exemple, que vous demandez à Vancouver, est-ce que ça a des répercussions sur votre projet de Victoria?

243 M. LAFRANCE: C'est que Victoria, notre intention à Victoria est d'offrir le service de la Première chaîne parce qu'on n'a aucun service actuellement sur Victoria donc on veut offrir le service de la Première chaîne sur Victoria. C'est ce qui nous semble prioritaire. Donc les deux demandes ne me semblent pas liées d'aucune façon.

244 Je ne pense pas que Victoria, la fréquence de Victoria, pourrait représenter une solution pour Vancouver.

245 CONSEILLER DEMERS: Je vais laisser notre avocat poursuivre sur ce point-là plus tard.

246 Ma dernière question, je pense que vous y avez répondu par écrit, mais je voudrais la mettre dans le dossier aujourd'hui. C'est toujours en rapport avec Victoria.

247 Alors OK Radio a offert de vous fournir ses installations d'émissions AM à Victoria au prix d'un dollar par année. Qu'est-il advenu de cette offre?

248 M. DOUCET: Nous avons donné suite à la suggestion. Nous avons rencontré les gens de OK Radio. Ce qui n'avait pas été mentionné à l'audience, et qu'on a su par la suite, c'est qu'il y avait des obligations contractuelles associées à cette installation qui n'étaient pas acceptables pour un service public, c'est-à-dire qu'il y avait des engagements à long terme au niveau du terrain, au niveau des installations et dans aucun endroit au pays on a accepté de prendre ce genre d'engagements.

249 CONSEILLER DEMERS: Donc cette offre, quant à vous, est terminée. Vous l'avez en quelque sorte rejetée?

250 M. DOUCET: Nous l'avons rejetée et il y a un autre requérant qui a fait une entente avec OK Radio.

251 CONSEILLER DEMERS: Alors merci, mesdames et messieurs.

252 Merci, Madame la Présidente. C'est la fin de mes questions.

253 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Cardozo has some questions.

254 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you, Madam Chair. Merci, messieurs et mesdames.

255 J'ai deux questions concernant les chiffres que vous avez mentionnés ce matin dans votre soumission orale.

256 Premièrement à la page 6 vous avez dit que Vancouver constitue la troisième minorité francophone hors Québec. Quelles sont la première et la deuxième?

257 M. LAFRANCE: Le Nouveau-Brunswick et l'Ontario. On parle de provinces.

258 CONSEILLER CARDOZO: Et le Manitoba aussi?

259 M. LAFRANCE: En terme de nombre, Suzanne?

260 Mme LAMARRE: Le Manitoba suit immédiatement la Colombie-Britannique. C'est basé sur les chiffres de Statistique Canada.

261 CONSEILLER CARDOZO: Et dans d'autres villes -- dans les cinq plus grandes régions du Canada, la plus grande population de minorité francophone, est-ce qu'il y a des chaînes culturelles dans ces régions, dans d'autres grands --

262 M. LAFRANCE: Nous sommes présents au Nouveau-Brunswick et nous sommes présents en Ontario -- pas partout, mais on est présents à Toronto. Nous avons une demande --

263 M. DOUCET: Oui, à Sudbury actuellement nous sommes en installation, donc on sera là au tout début de l'année 2001. On a déposé une demande pour Winnipeg puis on est en train de démêler sur le plan de l'ingénierie pour essayer d'accommoder tout le monde, et on devrait en principe déposer, d'ici un an au plus tard pour Edmonton, tranquillement.

264 Je pense que ce qu'on avait déposé comme plan lors de l'audience, le renouvellement des licences l'an dernier, on avait fait un plan sur sept ans où progressivement on installait. On commençait par les communautés qui étaient le plus important sur le plan francophone. C'est pour ça que Winnipeg et Vancouver arrivent avant Edmonton et Regina, par exemple.

265 CONSEILLER CARDOZO: Et la Chaîne culturelle existe à Ottawa aussi.

266 M. LAFRANCE: Oui.

267 M. DOUCET: Absolument, absolument. Et elle existe aussi au Nouveau-Brunswick, à Moncton, Campbellton, à Lamèque -- et nous déposerons une demande pour Edmundston d'ici quelques mois.

268 CONSEILLER CARDOZO: D'accord.

269 A la page 11, vous avez dit que 80 pour cent de la programmation de la Chaîne culturelle de Radio-Canada est consacrée à la musique.

270 Quelle est votre expérience dans d'autres régions du Canada? Est-ce qu'il y a beaucoup de gens non-francophone qui écoutent votre service pour la musique classique?

271 M. LAFRANCE: Oui, il y a certaines habitudes, notamment sur Toronto où on a pu voir certaines habitudes d'écoute intéressantes. Les gens vont souvent se balader entre Radio Two et la Chaîne culturelle selon le type de programmations qu'on y trouve, parce que les programmations sont quand même relativement différentes et jusqu'à un certain point complémentaires. Donc sur Toronto on a vu arriver bon nombre d'anglophones, mais sur Montréal également, parce que Montréal étant une ville relativement bilingue, on sait que beaucoup d'anglophones sont à l'écoute de la Chaîne culturelle aussi, parce que le service étant 80 pour cent musical, il est certain qu'il intéresse à la fois les francophones, les anglophones ou les allophones.

272 CONSEILLER CARDOZO: En général, la programmation est différente entre les deux?

273 M. LAFRANCE: Elle est toujours différente -- vous voulez dire entre Radio Two et la Chaîne culturelle?

274 CONSEILLER CARDOZO: Oui.

275 M. LAFRANCE: Elle est toujours différente à l'exception de --

276 CONSEILLER CARDOZO: Sauf pour les opéras?

277 M. LAFRANCE: C'est ça, sauf pour les concerts, les opéras du samedi -- je vois que vous êtes un auditeur. Pour l'opéra du samedi, naturellement, c'est l'opéra du Met, mais sinon la programmation, je pense que c'est le seul moment dans la semaine où nous offrons la même programmation parce que c'est le Met et qu'il y a une habitude d'écoute de ce qui est l'une des plus vieilles émissions de notre radio. Mais sinon les programmations sont totalement différentes.

278 CONSEILLER CARDOZO: Merci beaucoup.

279 Thank you, Madam Chair.

280 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

281 Commissioner Cram.

282 CONSEILLÈRE CRAM: Bonjour.

283 Encore moi je m'intéresse à votre chiffre. A la page 6 vous avez parlé de la troisième minorité francophone hors Québec, mais ça c'est toute la province de la Colombie-Britannique. C'est correct?

284 M. LAFRANCE: Oui.

285 CONSEILLÈRE CRAM: Parce que moi, Statistique Canada en 1976 ont dit au CMA -- je m'excuse -- qu'au CMA de Vancouver il y a 6 850 qui ont une langue maternelle française -- non, 23 400 qui ont une langue maternelle française à Vancouver et 6 800 qui parlent français chez eux.

286 Comment est-ce que vous arrivez au nombre de 130 000 personnes à Vancouver qui connaissent le français -- comme peut-être moi qui parle français un peu.

287 M. LAFRANCE: Ça va très bien.

288 Je vais demander à Suzanne Lamarre dans un instant de vous le dire, mais auparavant je voudrais apporter une précision qui me semble toujours extrêmement importante quand on parle des services de la Chaîne culturelle.

289 Radio-Canada, par son plan d'action, Radio-Canada par la Loi canadienne de la radiodiffusion, vise à offrir des services de programmation bilingue à travers le Canada, il vise à offrir des services de qualité égale. Nous n'avons jamais interprété la loi à savoir que nos services français étaient là pour parler aux francophones de langue maternelle et nos services anglais pour parler aux anglophones de langue maternelle.

290 Je pense que les services de Radio-Canada sont là pour parler aux Canadiens qui veulent les écouter, et ça pour moi c'est extrêmement important. Donc je ne veux surtout pas qu'on ramène la question à un débat sur le nombre de francophones dans la ville ou la banlieue de Vancouver parce que, encore une fois, on parle ici d'un plan d'action global qui touche la création d'une chaîne pan-canadienne de la culture en langue française et ça pour moi c'est extrêmement important et il me semblerait anormal qu'une province de l'importance de la Colombie-Britannique soit exclue de l'existence d'une chaîne pan-canadienne de la culture en français.

291 Mais je vais peut-être demander à Suzanne de préciser quand même pour la question des chiffres.

292 CONSEILLÈRE CRAM: Je pense qu'il y a trois choses -- ceux qui parlent chez eux, ceux qui parle comme langue maternelle et ceux qui connaissent le français. Mais il me semble que le nombre est mélangé tout autour de votre présentation.

293 Mme LAMARRE: C'est qu'il y a deux types de données qu'on considère. Dans le cadre formel d'une demande, ce qu'on va considérer ce sont les gens de langue maternelle, tels qu'ils sont définis par StatsCanada, il n'y a aucun doute possible, et dans ce cas-ci pour la demande qui est présentée, on l'évalue à environ 35 000 francophones de langue maternelle qui pourraient recevoir le signal.

294 Maintenant, il y a une autre donnée qui est quand même importante, ce sont les gens qui connaissent la langue et c'est là qu'on retrouve -- vous avez mis le doigt exactement dessus -- les gens qui connaissent le français, donc qui sont capables de l'écouter et qui sont capables de le parler.

295 On ne fait pas dans nos demandes, ni dans nos données d'analyse, de distinction pour ceux qui utilisent ou non la langue à la maison. On se concentre seulement sur la langue maternelle qui est en fait la donnée d'usage dans la planification stricte et ceux qui connaissent la langue, donc qui pourrait être une langue d'usage, conversationnelle, pour les données d'audience.

296 CONSEILLÈRE CRAM: Et puis quand vous parlez à la page 13 d'une couverture de rejoindre plus de 50 pour cent des francophones de la province, ça veut ceux qui ont la langue maternelle française?

297 Mme LAMARRE: Ça veut dire ceux qui ont une langue maternelle, mais ça inclut aussi -- le pourcentage se suit pour ceux qui sont de langue d'usage, qui connaissent le français. Donc quand on vous dit c'est 60 pour cent, c'est plus de 60 pour cent de ceux qui sont de langue maternelle française, mais quand après ça on fait le décompte de ceux qui connaissent le français, on rejoint en fait un pourcentage qui est même plus élevé que ça.

298 CONSEILLÈRE CRAM: Bien.

299 Mais les 50 pour cent ici, à la page 13, ça va être 30 000.

300 Mme LAMARRE: C'est 35 000.

301 CONSEILLÈRE CRAM: Bon, 35 000.

302 Mme LAMARRE: Bien en fait, 35 000 ça représente 60 pour cent.

303 CONSEILLÈRE CRAM: Merci.

304 Vous avez parlé, Monsieur Lafrance, d'un système équilibré, et ça m'intéresse parce vous disiez que nous devrons délivrer un système où il y a la radio privée, la radio publique, la radio communautaire, et les autres.

305 Dites-moi, pensez-vous que la radio d'autochtones est une autre catégorie, pas une radio privée, mais c'est une des choses avec lesquelles nous devrons jouer pour obtenir un équilibre?

306 M. LAFRANCE: Ça fait sans doute partie des nombreux équilibres dont j'ai parlé, effectivement. Je comprends qu'ils sont nombreux et variés ces équilibres-là et que vous n'êtes pas dans un travail facile sur ce plan-là.

307 On a un peu les mêmes problèmes dans notre propre programmation. On doit nous aussi refléter ces équilibres-là. Mais oui, je reconnais que ça fait partie de ces équilibres-là si on veut un système canadien de radiodiffusion qui est varié et qui répond aux différents objectifs de la Loi.

308 CONSEILLÈRE CRAM: Si la radio autochtone est une catégorie séparée, comme radio publique, enfin à la fin nous devrons compter le nombre, vraiment le nombre de francophones, le nombre d'autochtones, pour essayer de voir comment faire cet équilibre.

309 M. LAFRANCE: Bien le nombre est l'un des facteurs. Je ne pense pas qu'il soit le seul. Il dépend aussi des objectifs de chacune des stations et de chacune des entreprises. Ce n'est pas parce qu'une entreprise est francophone qu'elle répond à un des équilibres et ce n'est pas parce qu'elle est autochtone qu'elle répond nécessairement à un des équilibres.

310 Je pense qu'il y a plus que la question du nombre. Il y a la question de l'objectif, il y a la question du mandat qu'on veut se donner, il y a la question du rôle qu'on veut jouer dans le système canadien de radiodiffusion.

311 Nous ce qu'on dit ici -- je reviens au plan d'action de Radio-Canada, au plan d'action de la radio française -- c'est de lancer une grande chaîne pan-canadienne pour la culture en français et il me semble que pour ne pas attacher Vancouver à ce vaste train de la francophonie, ce serait extrêmement dangereux, et ce serait, à mon avis, extrêmement nuisible à l'ensemble du système.

312 Maintenant, il faut regarder chacun des projets, que ce soit un projet autochtone ou un autre, pour connaître les objectifs. Parfois les objectifs sont très locaux et peuvent trouver des solutions locales. Ce que je dis ici c'est que notre objectif est national. Il s'accommode assez mal des aménagements locaux sur une petite fréquence de ce niveau-là ou sur un AM ici, ou sur un truc comme ça, parce que c'est un projet national ambitieux pour le service public pour lequel nous nous sommes engagés et pour lequel vous avez exprimé des attentes, d'ailleurs.

313 Il me semble que Vancouver m'apparaît comme un maillon essentiel et incontournable de ça.

314 CONSEILLÈRE CRAM: Merci. Je m'excuse de mon pauvre français.

315 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Pennefather.

316 CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER: Merci, Madame la Présidente. Juste pour faire la suite des questions de la Conseillère Cram.

317 Quand vous avez fait les calculations concernant les fréquences, les autres fréquences suggérées par d'autres intervenants dans ce processus, est-ce que le 20 pour cent que vous avez mentionné est basé sur la langue maternelle ou la langue de connaissance du français?

318 M. DOUCET: Comme on l'a mentionné tout à l'heure, les proportions sont à peu près les mêmes. Donc on dit que c'est 20 pour cent. C'est sûr que sur des fins officielles on dirait que c'est 20 pour cent sur les langues maternelles, mais si on projette aussi sur ceux qui parlent français, on arrive à peu près à la même proportion.

319 CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER: Et une dernière question aussi, Monsieur Lafrance.

320 Vous parlez -- et je comprends très bien -- du projet national pour la Chaîne culturelle, mais vous avez mentionné aussi dans votre présentation au début l'importance des Franco-Colombiens et leur culture locale, et je n'ai pas très bien compris comment la Chaîne culturelle va vraiment fournir une réflection de la communauté francophone d'ici.

321 M. LAFRANCE: Les deux services de Radio-Canada, la Première chaîne et la Chaîne culturelle, sont des services complémentaires. La Première chaîne de Radio-Canada est le service le plus décentralisé de tout Radio-Canada. Toutes nos heures de grande écoute, de "prime time", sont des heures locales sur Vancouver.

322 Nous jouons donc un service complémentaire quand en apportant la Chaîne culturelle à Vancouver nous allons exposer le talent des artistes d'ici à l'ensemble du pays et à l'ensemble du monde et quand nous offrirons aux auditeurs de Vancouver les plus grands orchestres du monde et les plus grands orchestres du Canada. C'est comme ça qu'on joue le rôle complémentaire des deux chaînes.

323 Je crois que ça serait de s'infirmer dans une logique dangereuse de penser que dans le monde de la radio chaque station doit avoir un reflet local. Je pense que l'ensemble des stations doivent créer un équilibre entre le reflet local, particulièrement d'ailleurs en ce début du 21^e siècle où, avec toute les questions de mondialisation, avec tout l'intérêt suscité pour l'information internationale, il me semble qu'il est normal que peu de chaînes, mais quelques chaînes dans le monde de la radio, se préoccupent d'abord et avant tout de nous montrer ce qui se fait de meilleur au pays et de ce qui se fait de meilleur dans le monde, et de montrer au pays et au monde ce qui se fait de mieux à Vancouver.

324 Ça me semble être un rôle au moins aussi noble que le reflet local que nous faisons largement, par ailleurs, à la Première chaîne.

325 CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER: Alors deux pistes, c'est la Première chaîne qui vraiment supporte la présentation disons locale francophone, et la deuxième piste, vos efforts qui n'étaient pas très bien expliqués pour aller chercher les artistes francophones pour disons une présentation nationale de leurs oeuvres.

326 Est-ce que c'est sur cette piste-là que vous proposez que la Chaîne culturelle fournira une réflection locale?

327 M. LAFRANCE: Je ferais attention de dire une chose. La Chaîne culturelle ne va pas chercher que les artistes francophones. Elle va chercher les artistes canadiens parce que quand on parle de la musique classique, du jazz, on ne s'enferme pas dans une logique qui serait de dire, "Voici le meilleur pianiste francophone au Canada".

328 Ce qu'on veut faire connaître, ce sont les meilleurs musiciens canadiens et on veut pouvoir expliquer en français ce qu'ils représentent pour notre communauté et je ferais un peu attention de ne pas enfermer la Chaîne culturelle dans une logique encore là, dans une logique d'artistes francophones. On ne parle pas des artistes francophones dans la Chaîne culturelle. On parle des artistes canadiens.

329 CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER: Merci.

330 Merci, Madame la Présidente.

331 Mme SAVARD: Je m'excuse, je devrais peut-être ajouter une précision concernant la programmation de la Chaîne culturelle. C'est qu'on a des émissions aussi qui touchent la littérature et des émissions aussi qui touchent des documentaires sur différents artistes, écrivains, auteurs, et tout ça, donc ce n'est pas strictement une chaîne musicale. Je pense qu'il faut bien comprendre ça.

332 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

333 As the only unilingual anglophone in the bunch, you will forgive me if I ask my questions in English.

334 You made reference to some technical studies you have done in investigating the possibility of an AM frequency. . First, I wondered if you could share those with us and are you -- I wasn't quite clear when you were discussing it. For instance, I listen to Radio One and I don't have any trouble with reception at any time of the day or night. So I wasn't clear if you were saying that there were no good high-quality AM frequencies available or that all were questionable.

335 MR. LAFRANCE: Radio One is a clear channel so in Vancouver there is no problem. What I said is that there are a lot of frequencies in that region, and we have to protect everybody. That's why we have made external studies to see what could be the best AM frequency that we can use, but that best one had a lot of problems, including that we will reduce the coverage during the night significantly, and during the day, we have to reduce, compared to what we have actually.

336 So what I said is, we will have to tell our actual audience that we have since 1967 that, "We are sorry, but you will not be able to receive our service because we have to broadcast la Chaîne culturelle". So that is the main problem. The only frequency that is available is not good to keep the same coverage that we have actually with la Première chaîne, and you cannot compare with Radio One because Radio One is a clear channel, it's the very best one.

337 THE CHAIRPERSON: I understand that.

338 In preparing for this hearing -- I have only been at the Commission three years -- I went back as far as I could and sort of tried to sort out the history of the Commission's desire to see the extension of service, and the review with the CBC on the long range plan, and what the issues are.

339 What was very clear was that while we have been very consistent about wanting to see an extension of the service, as I think has the CBC, given the budget constraints, that there has also been a very clear understanding that in the areas of Vancouver, Victoria and some others where there is a real lack of frequencies, that certainly in our view, or historically, we saw that an equitable arrangement was the mono service on an AM channel and a stereo service on a stereo channel, on an FM frequency.

340 So I think that it's just a matter of trying to determine what is appropriate because certainly -- and also concerns about coverage overlap and, of course, a lot of discussion about the amount of local and regional programming that was included in those services with respect to the awarding of frequencies, particularly in competitive situations in these areas of congestion.

341 So I just, given that context, wanted to get a sense of to what degree have you really investigated, and I think particularly with the Victoria situation, the possibility of AM frequencies for the Première chaîne, given the congestion and signal overlap?

342 MR. LAFRANCE: If I may say a few things. First on the historical situation, it's very interesting to look at that because I think -- and correct me if I am wrong on the dates -- in the national audience of 1988, 1993 and 1999, you asked us to be present nationally, nation wide, with la Chaîne culturelle and now we are trying to do it. In fact, we had some budget constraints, as you mentioned, in the 1970s and 1980s, and a lot of them, and now we are totally convinced that we have to do that, and it's a good moment to do it.

343 The question of the AM and FM, this traditional arrangement we have for the first signal on AM, and the other one on FM, it was true in the 1980s, but if you look at the trends in the Canadian radio industry, we are just following the same trend than others. We are not different than others. So we have to take those decisions in the year 2000 and not to go back in the 1980s. I think we are just following the same trends for the same reasons than the private broadcaster.

344 So we didn't change our mind, but the environment has changed, and we have to take that into account in order to offer a good service. That's why, if you look in Toronto or Montreal, now we offer all of our services in FM and we are not totally convinced that we should try to balance our transmitter on FM, but we thing the best solution for Canadians and the better solution for us on a long-term range, is on FM.

345 There are some questions of cost, there is some questions of quality, there are a lot of questions, and there is a question of consistency of our system. If you have to take some decisions on the respective positioning of la Première chaîne and la Chaîne culturelle, it's very important to know on which kind of signal you will broadcast it.

346 If we decide to produce and to develop la chanson française on la Première chaîne, we have to be sure because we want to expose the better talent at the better quality. So we have to be sure that we are in a good broadcasting quality to achieve that.

347 So it seems to me that it's our environment that has changed, and not our mind.

348 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. I wasn't suggesting that you have changed -- and there is no question the environment has changed. I think it's fair to say that if every broadcaster on AM in Vancouver could move to FM, they would do it. And I think this is part of the pressures that we are dealing with every day. And so we need to gather as much information as we can and try to make a balanced decision.

349 MR. LAFRANCE:

350 THE CHAIRPERSON: And be mindful, as you pointed out, that we have in fact encouraged and pushed the CBC with respect to extension of service. So it's a matter of how to do that, and I think those are the issues that we struggle with.

351 MR. LAFRANCE: If I may repeat? Public radio in this country was not totally dangerous for frequencies in the last 20 years for a few reasons, but I will give you an example. For the last 30 years, we were always stuck to three different frequencies in Vancouver and during that time the private sector goes from 8 to 17. So we were not totally dangerous for everybody in asking for a frequency. We didn't exaggerate in our demands, I think, but now it's time for us to develop this new service, and it's good timing to do it and we really want to do that.

352 THE CHAIRPERSON: Just one other question out of curiosity.

353 You do news programming on la Chaîne culturelle and it originates from Montreal, I assume.

354 MR. LAFRANCE: Yes -- very few, by the way.

355 THE CHAIRPERSON: Very few?

356 MR. LAFRANCE: Yes, less than on la Première chaîne.

357 THE CHAIRPERSON: Less. And how much news do you do?

358 MR. LAFRANCE: Probably seven newscasts a day, something like that. The main newscast of la Première chaîne are on both la Chaîne culturelle and la Première.

359 THE CHAIRPERSON: And what is the nature of that news? Is it a Montreal newscast with Montreal news or is it very national in its --

360 MR. LAFRANCE: We have made a lot of efforts in the last seven years to have that nation wide. Just to give you an example, in the last seven years, in terms of programs. Seven years ago there was one hour of program nationally that was originating from outside Montreal. Now it's probably 30 hours a week of national programs from outside Montreal and outside Quebec. So it's a big change and it's the same proportion in news.

361 If you look at the newscast, we have a lot of news items. We have a newsroom here in Vancouver, both for radio and TV. So we have really increased the number of items from all the regions of Canada.

362 THE CHAIRPERSON: And of that 30 hours a week you have just mentioned, how much of that is original hours? All are original hours?

363 MR. LAFRANCE: No, I am talking about regional hours for national broadcast.

364 THE CHAIRPERSON: I know you are. So you do 30 hours a week --

365 MR. LAFRANCE: Yes, for national broadcast.

366 THE CHAIRPERSON:  -- original hours outside Quebec for --

367 MR. LAFRANCE: National broadcast.

368 THE CHAIRPERSON: National broadcast.

369 Thank you very much.

370 Mr. Rhéaume.

371 Me RHÉAUME: Merci, Madame la Présidente.

372 Une seule question, Monsieur Lafrance, qui va être en quelque sorte le mot de la fin.

373 La loi prévoit que lorsqu'il y a conflit entre les objectifs de la SRC et les intérêts d'autres entreprises de radiodiffusion, le Conseil se doit de trancher en vertu de l'intérêt public.

374 Alors, à Vancouver, selon vous, quel est l'intérêt public et dans quelle mesure le Conseil doit-il prendre en considération les facteurs que vous allez m'énumérer de façon à trancher en votre faveur?

375 M. LAFRANCE: La difficulté de la décision, je pense, c'est que l'intérêt public national va, dans mon esprit, carrément et clairement dans le sens d'une chaîne pan-canadienne de la culture en français. Je pense qu'il va falloir faire un équilibre entre l'intérêt régional et l'intérêt national -- et là-dessus vous me permettrez de dire que les stations de radio locales qui s'occupent d'intérêts locaux, il y en a beaucoup. Des grands réseaux qui diffusent la culture canadienne, il n'y en a pas des tonnes, et il me semble que l'intérêt national pour l'équilibre du système va dans le sens de l'encouragement à de grands réseaux de diffusion de la culture canadienne de région en région. Et j'ai l'impression que l'intérêt public national va carrément dans ce sens-là.

376 Me RHÉAUME: Alors, si j'ai bien compris le sens de votre réponse, c'est que vous nous dites que l'intérêt du public de Vancouver doit, si j'ai bien compris le sens de votre réponse, être subordonné à un service national.

377 M. LAFRANCE: Vous l'avez compris comme un avocat. Je l'ai donné comme un radiodiffuseur.

378 Me RHÉAUME: C'est à peu près ça?

379 M. LAFRANCE: Non, pas tout à fait parce que moi je pense que l'intérêt de l'auditoire de Vancouver c'est d'entendre les plus grands orchestres du monde, c'est d'entendre les plus grands orchestres canadiens, c'est d'être exposé à la culture française aussi, c'est de comprendre un peu mieux les valeurs fondatrices de ce pays-là, et je pense que c'est aussi l'intérêt des gens de Vancouver.

380 Ce n'est peut-être pas l'intérêt des groupes de radiodiffuseurs de Vancouver, mais je pense que dans une ville, dans une communauté aussi diversifiée que celle de Vancouver, l'ouverture au pays et l'ouverture au monde est une valeur d'intérêt public fondamentale et je pense que ça doit être soupesé par rapport à de nouveaux services musicaux locaux qui sont souvent des services programmés de toute façon et presqu'automatisés.

381 Donc je pense que l'intérêt des gens de Vancouver n'est pas que d'entendre parler de Vancouver. C'est une des grandes erreurs, je pense, qu'on fait dans la planification des services de radio, c'est de penser que si c'est local, c'est toujours meilleurs. Mais le citoyen aujourd'hui en l'an 2000, il veut aussi savoir ce qui se passe dans son pays, ce qui se passe sur sa planète. Il veut entendre le meilleur de la planète aussi.

382 Donc je ne pense pas qu'on doit subordonner l'intérêt régional. Je pense qu'on doit mettre en priorité d'abord l'intérêt du citoyen.

383 Me RHÉAUME: Oui, on remarque que le législateur, dans sa sagesse, n'a pas tenté de nous aider dans le sens d'une définition d'intérêt public. Alors j'apprécie votre réponse.

384 Une dernière question maintenant. Les fréquences FM dont il a été question avec le Commissaire Demers.

385 Vous nous avez dit que les classes A, les fréquences 88, 92, et ainsi de suite, ces fréquences de classe A ne couvriraient qu'un pourcentage de l'Ile de Vancouver. Est-ce que vous avez des études, des tests dans ce sens-là?

386 M. DOUCET: Ce n'est pas l'Ile de Vancouver, on parle de la ville de Vancouver.

387 Oui, on a des cartes aussi, donc si vous le souhaitez, on pourrait déposer une carte, donc une pour la fréquence AM, l'étude qui a été faite par un consultant externe et les fréquences FM. En fait on a étudié une classe A parce qu'on utilise la 88,1 ou n'importe quelle autre fréquence mais qui est limitée à la même puissance, on aura à peu près le même rayonnement. Donc on pourrait les déposer.

388 Me RHÉAUME: Oui, certainement.

389 Et puis est-ce que vous avez avancé un pourcentage en terme de couverture, parce que la fréquence 94,5, évidemment qui est votre premier choix, couvrirait adéquatement la ville de Vancouver, mais ces autres fréquences FM, est-ce que vous avez parlé de 20 pour cent?

390 M. DOUCET: Effectivement, on a parlé de 20 pour cent au lieu du 60 pour cent dont on parlait avec la fréquence 94,5.

391 Me RHÉAUME: Alors ce n'est pas 20 pour cent de la ville de Vancouver.

392 M. DOUCET: Non, c'est 20 pour cent des francophones de la Colombie-Britannique. Ce qu'on disait dans le fond c'est que la ville de Vancouver a une concentration de francophones et la fréquence qu'on demande nous permettra de desservir ces francophones de façon à atteindre le 50 pour cent de la province.

393 Si on utilise une fréquence beaucoup plus petite, compte tenu de la concentration de francophones à Vancouver, on ne pourra pas obtenir plus que 20 pour cent des francophones de la province. Parce qu'on a fait nos calculs sur l'ensemble des francophones de la province.

394 Me RHÉAUME: Alors vous seriez en mesure de rejoindre combien de francophones à Vancouver avec ces fréquences de classe A?

395 M. DOUCET: Je vais demander à Mme Lamarre de répondre.

396 Me RHÉAUME: Les fréquences MF?

397 Mme LAMARRE: La ville de Vancouver au complet serait couverte, mais c'est à peu près tout ce qui serait couvert.

398 La banlieue un petit peu plus éloignée, même une partie de la ville de Burnaby, ne serait pas couverte adéquatement avec une fréquence de classe A.

399 Donc la municipalité comme telle de Vancouver, oui, elle serait couverte, mais toutes les villes environnantes de banlieues qui comptent quand même de nombreux francophones, elles seraient exclues.

400 Me RHÉAUME: Mais vous nous dites quand même à la page 6 que 130 000 personnes à Vancouver connaissent le français, et là si j'ai bien compris, vous nous dites que ces fréquences de classe A couvriraient adéquatement Vancouver.

401 Mme LAMARRE: Quand on dit 130 000, ce sont ceux qui ont la langue d'usage du français, et ça inclut la grande région. Donc dans ce 130 000 on inclut toute la banlieue qui aurait couverte par un émetteur de classe C.

402 Sur la carte de rayonnement qu'on a préparée, on a ces pourcentages-là en fonction de la langue maternelle, en fonction de la langue d'usage, ainsi que la concentration de la population en fonction des municipalités.

403 Me RHÉAUME: Merci.

404 Merci, Madame la Présidente.

405 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Thank you very much.

406 M. LAFRANCE: Merci beaucoup.

407 THE CHAIRPERSON: I think what we will do is take our morning break and reconvene at eleven o'clock with Newcap.

--- Upon recessing at 1042 / Suspension à 1042

--- Upon resuming at 1104 / Reprise à 1104

408 THE CHAIRPERSON: We are ready to reconvene.

409 What I would like to do is I think we are going to break for lunch around 12:30, which may in fact be before we finish all the panel questions for the next presenter. So with that in mind --

410 MS VOGEL: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

411 Our next application today is by Newcap Inc., and it is for a broadcasting licence to carry on an English-language FM radio programming undertaking at Vancouver.

412 The new station would operate on a frequency of 94,5 MHz, with an effective radiated power of 46,000 watts.

413 The applicant is proposing a New Adult Contemporary/Smooth Jazz specialty format with at least 60 per cent of the music drawn from subcategory 34 which is jazz and blues.

414 Please go ahead whenever you are ready.

APPLICATION / APPLICATION

415 MR. TEMPLETON: Thank you.

416 Good morning, Madam Chair, Commissioners, Commission staff.

417 My name is Bob Templeton. I'm President of Newcap Broadcasting. Just before we begin our presentation, I would like to introduce the members of our team.

418 Rob Steele is a member of the Board of Directors of Newfoundland Capital Corporation Limited. He is a successful Halifax-area businessman who is responsible for spearheading Newcap's national expansion strategy in radio.

419 Anna Zanetti is a member of the management ream at Q104, our Halifax FM station, where she is music director and mid-day personality. She is well-known in the industry for her passion for music and her enthusiastic support of the Canadian music industry.

420 Dawn Aitken is a Vancouver-based jazz vocalist who has appeared at major jazz venues throughout North America and has won awards for her work as a voice-over and commercial jingle singer. Her latest CD, Be Cool, was released last month. She has a copy of it here today, and we hope you will have a chance to play it in the break.

421 Steve Jones is the Programming Director of our highly successful Edmonton FM stations, MIX 96 and K-Rock.

422 Jackie Rae Greening is part of the management teach of Canada's most successful country AM station, CFCW in Camrose, Alberta where she is the Program Director and morning host. Jackie is very active in community events in Central Alberta, and is here to answer any questions you may have about Newcap's plans for community involvement.

423 John Steele is Vice-President of Newcap's radio operations in Newfoundland.

424 Bob Kennedy is a British Columbia broadcast consultant. His expertise includes news and information programming. He was news director of both CHUM and CJEZ-FM in Toronto. He has served as a consultant on Vancouver community and Aboriginal relations issues to various governments. He is a member of the Oneida Nations. He is also the publisher of Turtle Island Native Network at turleisland.org -- one of the most visited news and information Aboriginal Web sites in the world.

425 At the side table are: Pierre Doering, one of Canada's foremost experts in the field of marketing and behaviour research. After 25 years with Goldfarb Consultants where he was most recently President, Peter left to establish his own firm. His company has been the lead provider of market research services on a world-wide basis for clients such as Ford Motor Company and Four Seasons Hotels and Resorts. Mr. Doering and his company conducted the market research from which we developed our business plan.

426 John Matthews is our engineering consultant and can respond to any questions you have concerning available radio frequencies.

427 David Murray is the Vice-President, Operations at Newcap Broadcasting and can speak to our business plan, including financial projections, for the proposed station.

428 Cynthia Rathwell is our legal counsel and practices communications law at the firm of Olser, Hoskin and Harcourt LLP in Ottawa.

429 We would also like to acknowledge the presence of others joining us today who have played a vital role in the development of this application. They are Linda Emerson, our executive assistant, and Harry Steele, President and CEO of Newfoundland Capital Corporation Limited.

430 Madam Chair, we are not ready to begin our presentation.

431 We appreciate the opportunity to appear before you today in one of Canada's premier jazz centres to demonstrate why Newcap's application for an NAC/Smooth Jazz station stands out from the pack and deserves to be licensed.

432 We will describe today our commitment to smooth jazz, to meaningful local reflection and to begin a distinct news voice and ownership presence in Vancouver. We will also explain our unique Canadian Talent Development initiatives and how our proposal meets the Commission's licensing criteria for new radio services.

433 MR. ROB STEELE: I would like to start today by talking about Newcap and our corporate goals and put this application into context. I hope you will appreciate how well those goals mesh with the realization of Canadian broadcasting policy.

434 Newcap Inc. is a subsidiary of Newfoundland Capital Corporation Limited, a publicly-traded company based in Halifax. Though it began as a transportation business, today Newcap is focused almost entirely on radio.

435 We have 25 radio licences in the four Atlantic Provinces, Ontario and Alberta. While this may seem like a lot, many are located in communities of less than 25,000. But we also have proven success in urban markets like Edmonton and Halifax.

436 Through this application and another which is pending, we hope to extend our national presence. Since the introduction of the multiple licence ownership policy in 1998, a great number of other medium-sized radio business have been bought out by large, integrated media companies primarily situated in Toronto. The buying frenzy has put prices for radio stations at a premium.

437 Newcap, however, has neither been tempted to sell nor intimidated by competition from large, consolidated and horizontally integrated companies, many of whom play in our backyard. On the contrary, we are absolutely committed to radio.

438 We have demonstrated this in several ways. First, through our acquisition and turn around of stations in financially troubled markets where others simply gave up. Second, by satisfying all our commitments to the CRTC. Third, by maintaining an excellent relationship with the Canadian music industry, and finally, through out strong engagement in each community that we serve.

439 We are an eastern-based broadcasters, but we have a proven record of being excellent local broadcasters in central and western Canada. And now, we want to expand and become another strong voice with national reach. We don't want to sell, we want to grow.

440 As a result, I have dedicated myself -- with the support of our team -- to spearheading our national initiatives. Similarly, my brother John is applying his energies to the management of our Newfoundland network. Radio is Newcap's present and future, and that is why my brother, my father and I are all here today.

441 Winning new licences is essential to giving Newcap the capacity to compete with central Canadian media giants who operate in our markets. It will also help us sustain our presence in very small markets where big players do not want to invest.

442 In view of today's extremely high prices for radio stations, winning new licences is the best way that we can expand. We are a proactive group. It was our research and application that triggered this call, as well as the calls in Calgary and Moncton.

443 Newcap does not expect the Commission to grant it new licences just because these licences are important to Newcap. We know that the process is fully competitive, and that the best application will win. We are confident that this is the best application for Vancouver and the people of the Lower Mainland.

444 MR. TEMPLETON: We are the first commercial applicant before you and, as it turns out, the first of six smooth jazz applications. So many of us agree on at least one thing: there is a demand for smooth jazz in Vancouver. But let us tell you how we ourselves came to that conclusion.

445 Originally we applied for another format, Modern AC/Modern Rock, but an Abbotsford FM which reaches Vancouver subsequently switched to that format. Our initial research proved itself right. We still strongly believed, however, that there was an opportunity in Vancouver and that the city could benefit greatly from a fresh voice.

446 We therefore went back to our research and it told us that smooth jazz would first, appeal to a significant and largely undeserved segment of the Vancouver market. Second, achieve audience levels necessary to ensure viability. Third, add diversity to formats in the market and, finally, have minimal impact on existing stations.

447 The male/female slit of the audience of Newcap's proposed station will be 50/50. Primary appeal will be among persons 25-44. Our research tells us that the new station will achieve a 5 to 7 per cent share of this demographic.

448 Notably, the format's appeal among visible minorities registers 10 per cent higher than the market at large. This suggests that the smooth jazz station proposed by Newcap is more capable than other mainstream formats of serving Vancouver's culturally and ethnically diverse population.

449 Finally, notwithstanding the clear demand for smooth jazz in Vancouver, Newcap understands that there may be legitimate local interests in other formats as well. To that end, we asked our engineering consultants to conduct an in-depth analysis of available local frequencies and to examine various carriage possibilities for the applicants. This analysis demonstrates that technically there is room to accommodate more than one new FM radio station in Vancouver.

450 We have copies of this report and would be happy to address it and respond to any questions you may have.

451 MS AITKEN: The traditional jazz format has not fared well in Vancouver and elsewhere because it was narrow but eclectic. Since smooth jazz began to emerge and find airplay with some cross-over pop, R&B and classic soul -- starting with the U.S. in the late 80s -- smooth jazz has become a popular format in many countries.

452 Smooth jazz artists include Canadian and international stars like Norman Brown, Jesse Cook, Brian Hughes, Al Jarreau and Carol Welsman. There are many Smooth Jazz artists from Vancouver and British Columbia, including Joe Coughlin, Johnny Ferreira, Diana Krall, François Houle and myself.

453 The time is right for this format in Canada. Canada has many accomplished jazz musicians, but we simply can't get commercial airplay in our own country. A lucky few of us have succeeded in getting U.S. airplay, but that's tough where there are no Canadian stations to support the growth of Smooth Jazz at home.

454 Without airplay, jazz artists have trouble getting recording contracts. Even when they do, it's very difficult to promote the record and achieve broad sales without radio. When Canadians can only access new Canadian jazz by attending live performances, the recording process for Smooth Jazz artists becomes futile.

455 MS ZANETTI: We greatly appreciate the Vancouver International Jazz Festival's support for a new Smooth Jazz station, and the specific support of Newcap's Smooth Jazz application by the Victoria's Terrific Jazz Party and the Toronto International Jazz Festival. The support of the creator community is very important to the format's success.

456 The unique music blend which Newcap proposes for Smooth Jazz 94.5 will feature a minimum of 60 per cent smooth jazz instrumentals and vocals by contemporary local, national and international smooth jazz stars.

457 To distinguish our format and to heighten our appeal to Vancouverites who feel unserved by current stations, at least 50 per cent of our music will be instrumental. Beyond this minimum commitment, we foresee that out of about 12 music spots per hour, approximately eight will be instrumental. This is significant because it means that we will truly be a smooth jazz station, and not simply an AC station hiding behind a specialty label.

458 We will also increase Canadian content from the required 10 per cent for specialty stations to a minimum of 20 per cent. We are confident that this figure is the right number if a station is really going to feature predominantly smooth jazz.

459 We know that there are higher Canadian content proposals before you with respect to smooth jazz. But our research tells us that the release rate of new Canadian jazz CDs stands at less than one per week. As a result, any Canadian content commitment above 20 per cent means many repeats which turns off audiences and hurts Canadian artists. If applicants claim that excessive repeats won't happen, it suggests that they may be proposing a definition of smooth jazz that is too broad. That would bring a station closer to an AC station, adding little diversity to the system.

460 MR. KENNEDY: Newcap strongly believes that the breadth of its spoken word and new commitment, coupled with the fact that it is an entirely new voice in Vancouver, distinguishes Smooth Jazz 94.5 from other applicants.

461 We will create a brand new newsroom with eight local employees to seek out and report the news. We won't just add a couple of bodies to an existing news operation, or hire a person to read a wire service.

462 Our target is an adult audience that demands a significant information component to its radio. In response, Newcap plans to air a minimum of 71 news and public affairs packages each week, with a heavy local emphasis featuring 50 per cent local Vancouver stories, 25 per cent regional stories and, where possible, a local perspective on the remaining 25 per cent national and international stories.

463 Moreover, the distinctiveness and local tenor of our voice will be strengthened by our commitment, from the first day of sign-on, to full employment equity. From the outset, Newcap will engage new staff from the four designated employment equity groups in a proportion approximately equal to their representation in Greater Vancouver.

464 MS GREENING: We know that you may well ask now a medium-sized, Atlantic-based broadcaster can credibly say that it can offer a strong, local presence in Vancouver.

465 As we have said, our staff will reflect, and our content will appeal, to Vancouver's diverse population. But at an even more basic level, our company understands localism. From small communities like Camrose to Gander, the bigger places like Thunder Bay, and cities like Edmonton and Halifax, Newcap serves communities with very strong, local identities. These communities do not fit a central, urban North American mould.

466 In addition to promoting local reflection and diversity through its programming, Newcap will promote it through its works. Based on a model that has been high successful at other Newcap stations, Smooth Jazz 94.5 will promote a weekly auction of goods donated by local retailers to raise money for a Children's Trust Fund. The Fund will serve local children in need in a direct, expeditious and low-key manner.

467 The local fund will provide financial assistance to those who come to the station demonstrating special needs, such as the need for a medical device, or the granting of a wish to a terminally ill child.

468 Newcap has distributed hundreds of thousands of dollars through these auctions across Canada. We are eager to engage ourselves very directly in the diverse communities which we serve. I have been part of these efforts in Edmonton, and I can attest to how rewarding the activity is for everyone involved.

469 MR. JOHN STEELE: In Calgary, the Commission asked how various CTD commitments should be evaluated. That was a very important question.

470 At Newcap we believe that commitments which are directly linked to artist groups and local communities and which will immediately satisfy broadcasting policy objectives are the most valuable. Newcap's commitments to both the local smooth jazz community and the Aboriginal Voices Radio Network are of this nature.

471 Our CTD plan focuses on strong financial and promotional support for the local jazz community and the development of a local and national Aboriginal Peoples radio service.

472 In terms of direct financial support for the local jazz community over a seven-year licence term, Newcap will contribute $700,000 to FACTOR for new recordings by Canadian artists from Vancouver and British Columbia. We will give $700,000 to the Coastal Jazz and Blues Society to help produce the annual Vancouver International Jazz Festival and we will contribute $637,000 to the presentation of local jazz performances each Saturday afternoon at a prominent Vancouver jazz venue.

473 We will record these performances throughout the year and include the best on a CD sampler which we will promote and distribute at no charge.

474 MR. TEMPLETON: In addition to supporting local jazz music, Newcap is allocating over half of its direct benefits to the development of the Aboriginal Voices Radio Network. If licensed in Vancouver, Newcap will make $4.2 million in direction contributions to Aboriginal broadcasting over a seven-year licence term. $588,000 will be contributed to the Aboriginal Voices Radio Network for a Vancouver news bureau, providing the large and active Aboriginal community here with a news voice and we will give $3,612,000 to the launch and operation of the Aboriginal Voices Radio Network in major Canadian centres, including Vancouver.

475 These commitments will have an immediate and visible impact. The proposed recipients will be before you in a few days, and they are ready to take their place in the system. The Broadcasting Act expects that programming reflecting Canada's aboriginal cultures should be provided as resources become available. Newcap's willingness to devote those resources testifies to our strength and uniqueness as a broadcaster.

476 In addition to our direct support of the Aboriginal Voices Radio Network, Newcap is also proposing $763,000 in indirect technical and administrative support over a seven-year licence term to launch and operate AVRN's Vancouver retransmitter service.

477 Together, our direct and indirect contributions to Canadian talent and the Aboriginal community are valued at $7,763,000 over the course of a seven-year term. This commitment ranks quantitatively with those promised by much larger applicants. More importantly, we believe it is superior in its breadth and substance.

478 MR. ROB STEELE: Newcap's proposal meets all of the key factors the Commission considers when assessing competitive radio applications.

479 The overall business plan is directed at a very healthy local radio market which can clearly sustain a new commercial radio broadcaster. There is clear demand for our smooth jazz station which will make us viable.

480 Moreover, our content is unique among the smooth jazz applicants. Minimum instrumental music levels mean we will be faithful to our format. Our Canadian content commitments are double that strictly required by regulation, yet reflect research that tells us that a higher level would not be in the best interest of listeners or Canadian artists.

481 Finally, Newcap's CTD commitments and direct benefits, standing at approximately $7.8 million, will have a visible impact on the face of local and Canadian broadcasting.

482 The market impact of Smooth Jazz 94.5 will be small, attracting under-served smooth jazz listeners who will increase their overall tuning in response to our presence. Only 35 per cent of our revenues will come from advertising dollars currently spent on existing stations and the impact on those stations will be dispersed.

483 Moreover, the Vancouver radio advertising market is growing and Vancouver has fewer stations per capita than most Canadian cities. All of these factors mean that Smooth Jazz 94.5 will not have a significant impact on local broadcasters.

484 Indeed, if the Commission decides that Vancouver can sustain more than one new FM station, our engineering report holds out several options for frequency use.

485 Current competition in Vancouver puts none of the commercial applicants who are already in the market in need of a new FM to survive. All of the existing commercial FMs are doing very well.

486 But the marketplace does call for increased competition as Vancouver is one of the most undeserved FM markets in Canada. Newcap Smooth Jazz 94.5 will be a completely new undertaking, creating approximately 30 new local jobs.

487 While our corporate headquarters are in the East, our operations reflect distinctive local cultures, from Newfoundland to Alberta. Just as all politics are said to be local, it's our philosophy that all radio is local.

488 Our employment equity commitment means that we will enter the market as an inclusive and reflective local player.

489 Finally, a new ownership presence in the market will bring with it a unique and distinct news voice, independent from any other Vancouver media outlets, broadcast or otherwise. Moreover, our commitment to AVRN will ensure yet another dynamic news and editorial voice in Vancouver.

490 In closing, we would like to restate Newcap's commitment to doing all it can to be a broadcasting leader, well attuned to distinct local cultures. We have a unique contribution to make to the system and hope that we are afforded the opportunity to do so.

491 MR. TEMPLETON: Thank you, Madam Chair and Members of the Commission.

492 We would welcome your questions at this time.

493 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

494 I will now turn to Commissioner Cram to question the panel.

495 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you, and welcome to the other coast and of course the second hearing that we have been mutually at in about three weeks.

496 I'm going to start off with first CTD and then I will be going on to the very incredible issue of Cancon and then marketing and then frequency issues.

497 Number one -- and I will start with some of the easier issues. The $100,000 to go to FACTOR annually towards production of NAC/Smooth Jazz. Have you received a written confirmation from FACTOR saying they accept that condition?

498 MR. TEMPLETON: Yes, we have, Commissioner. I have the letter with me.

499 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I didn't hear you.

500 MR. TEMPLETON: Pardon me?

501 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I didn't hear you.

502 MR. TEMPLETON: Yes, we did and I have the letter with me.

503 COMMISSIONER CRAM: You do.

504 MR. TEMPLETON: Yes.

505 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay.

506 And does it refer at all to the Vancouver area also?

507 MR. TEMPLETON: It restricts the funding to Vancouver and British Columbia artists.

508 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So that is the two then -- well, it's all included. The CAB/CTD plan is included in your FACTOR $100,000 per annum.

509 MR. TEMPLETON: It's $700,000 over a seven-year term.

510 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Right. And you have a letter from FACTOR saying it's for NAC/Smooth Jazz in Vancouver and British Columbia.

511 MR. TEMPLETON: Correct.

512 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Subject to any ruling by Madam Chair, we might want to have that filed.

513 Then when you talk about the International Jazz Festival, it's a lovely chunk of change, and you said there is a general condition that local and Canadian acts continue to constitute the majority of acts featured in the Festival.

514 Have you received anything in writing from the Jazz Festival that they have accepted that condition?

515 MR. TEMPLETON: We have not received anything in writing to that effect, but that is their stated mission and as long as that holds true, we will continue to contribute.

516 If they stray from that policy or reputation, we will reallocate those funds to the local jazz community to develop jazz artists in Vancouver and British Columbia.

517 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So you have not approached them at all?

518 MR. TEMPLETON: Yes, but not to a commitment of always featuring predominantly Canadian jazz artists, but that has been certainly the trend here and elsewhere, Toronto, et cetera, to focus and feature Canadian artists.

519 COMMISSIONER CRAM: But it's an international festival.

520 MR. TEMPLETON: Yes.

521 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And so I have sort of a problem thinking that similar as I say to the Bandshell in Barrie -- that it might be set up simply to accommodate artists from elsewhere. Do you believe you could get some assurance from them?

522 MR. TEMPLETON: I believe that's possible. It certainly is the way the way it has been in the past to a great extent. Marquee American and international artists bring in a larger crowd and expose more non-traditional jazz enthusiasts to the genre. So they are used as somewhat of a lure to bring more people to the festivals. I know that's certainly the case in Toronto, but it also highlights and features Canadian artists.

523 Our company has been involved with the Toronto Jazz Festival in doing just exactly that and we have also had a great working relationship in Edmonton with the Jazz Festival and the Halifax Jazz Festival as well.

524 So we anticipate the same sort of relationship here in Vancouver with the local jazz festival and we appreciate the support they have given to smooth jazz for all of the applicants.

525 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So Mr. Templeton, if I understand you correctly, if you ascertain after a year or two that the money is going to artists outside of Canada, you will reconsider your commitment. Is that what you said in your first answer when I was talking about this issue?

526 MR. TEMPLETON: Well, first we will try and channel all of the dollars to the Canadian presentations in Vancouver, but if the norm became it was mostly international artists with very little Canadian representation, we would inform the jazz festival that we would have to withdraw our support and we would reallocate those funds to developing smooth jazz and jazz in Vancouver and British Columbia through FACTOR.

527 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So once you give the money over to the International Festival, how much control do you have over where the monies go then?

528 MR. TEMPLETON: Well, as a major contributor we think we will have a lot of influence. This is a seven-year commitment. They have to come back to us each year. So we are very confident that they will respond to that. It has certainly been our experience elsewhere.

529 COMMISSIONER CRAM: You then talked about developing the live performance CD sampler from the performances Saturday Afternoon at the Ritz, I think it was -- and realize this is not my mathematics because that's not my strong suit. Staff claims that you say initially that it will be $91,000 per year for that initiative.

530 MR. TEMPLETON: Yes.

531 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And yet the budget breakdown shows it will only be $84,000. Can you explain that?

532 MR. TEMPLETON: Steve, do you want to comment on that?

533 MR. JONES: No.

534 MR. TEMPLETON: I'm not sure what you are referring to. Is it in our supplementary brief?

535 COMMISSIONER CRAM: It's the budge breakdown of the $91,000 that you gave and that would have been obviously in response, I guess, to a deficiency.

536 MR. TEMPLETON: I have the deficiency letter here -- $91,000.

537 COMMISSIONER CRAM: It will be $91,000 notwithstanding anything.

538 MR. TEMPLETON: Yes. Would you care if we looked at the deficiency letter?

539 COMMISSIONER CRAM: If you would.

540 MR. TEMPLETON: Okay.

--- Pause

541 COMMISSIONER CRAM: It's your letter of August 28, 2000, the second page, paragraph 3.

542 MR. TEMPLETON: I hope I have that one. I'm sorry, did you say August 8 or 28th?

543 COMMISSIONER CRAM: August 28th, 2000.

544 MR. TEMPLETON: Okay.

545 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Page 2, Item No. 3, sub B.

546 MR. TEMPLETON: Yes, I have it.

--- Pause

547 MR. TEMPLETON: I believe that the difference, Commissioner, now that I have reflected on this and refreshed my memory from last August, is the contingency that is stated as $9,000, but we anticipate the cost will be $91,000 and that's what our commitment is, that's what we are proposing.

548 COMMISSIONER CRAM: But the contingency is already there, isn't it?

549 MR. TEMPLETON: Yes, I realize it is. It's just not as large as what we put in our application -- $91,000 is our commitment.

550 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So that contingency number should be $9,000 plus $7,000, $16,000.

551 MR. TEMPLETON: To come to a total of $91,000, yes.

552 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And contingencies will be used for production and taping costs and/or musician fees?

553 MR. TEMPLETON: Where applicable, yes.

554 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So it's almost 20 per cent of the total cost.

555 MR. TEMPLETON: We think it will be less than that, but we have allowed that kind of flexibility. This is an initiative where we will be distributing this free throughout the jazz community here and across Canada and to the United States as well.

556 We are trying to get exposure for these musicians.

557 COMMISSIONER CRAM: There is then, I believe, musician production tape costs also there. Like musician fees there are $52,000.

558 MR. TEMPLETON: Yes, approximately $1,000 a week.

559 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And then production and taping costs there are $13,000.

560 MR. TEMPLETON: Approximately. We have the infrastructure, but these are additional costs we would incur. These are direct costs versus the indirect cost of using our equipment and our facilities.

561 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So what's indirect?

562 MR. TEMPLETON: It's over and above that, Commissioner. We obviously have our own studios and our own technical recording equipment which is not reflected in here. This is additional production costs, where we have to go out and purchase those services.

563 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So additional -- well, let's just start wit musicians fees.

564 MR. TEMPLETON: Yes.

565 COMMISSIONER CRAM: They will be $52,000 plus part of the $16,000 contingency.

566 MR. TEMPLETON: It could be, yes. The contingency could apply to all of these areas.

567 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay.

568 And production and taping costs, which you have said would be -- the use of the contingency would be $13,000 plus a portion of the $16,000.

569 MR. TEMPLETON: It could be, Commissioner, yes, it could be.

570 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Why wouldn't put the contingency for musicians fees and production and taping costs right in there?

571 MR. TEMPLETON: It's hard to determine where there might be a shortfall, so we put that in a kind of a catch-all and if we have a deficiency here or a deficiency there, we have the money set aside and this would be a quantitative benefit of $91,000 that we would verify with the CRTC each year.

572 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And I didn't understand, when you were talking in the file, would there be one or two of these CD samplers per year?

573 MR. TEMPLETON: When we said one or two, two things. It depends on the amount of money, but more importantly the quality of the recordings we get. If we are going to distribute Canadian recordings, we would like other markets to actually air these recordings, including our friends to the South.

574 So if we have more than enough to fill a second CD, we think we have built in enough here to produce two, if necessary, if we can find enough quality. That's our hope.

575 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And you are going to be giving it out free of charge, you say.

576 MR. TEMPLETON: Yes.

577 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And how would that be set up? Only through the Vancouver station, or how would be doing it?

578 MR. TEMPLETON: No, it would be distributed to all of the jazz societies across the country. It would have some distribution here locally to various music organizations. We would supply it to radio stations, some stations that might -- not traditional or smooth jazz stations -- play certain elements. Diana Krall, of course, is a great example. Some of Diana Krall's music is getting on to some AC stations. That type or that style might fit on some softer AC stations and we hope that we get exposure.

579 It's a commitment to promote, to develop, produce and promote Vancouver and British Columbia talent that might not otherwise get any exposure. So we are going to facilitate that, bring it all together and then distribute it, and also to the leading smooth jazz stations in the States as well.

580 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And please forgive me if I sometimes -- reading these applications, sometimes I get mixed up. But I believe you were going to try to sell some musicians' CDs through your Web site?

581 MR. TEMPLETON: Yes.

582 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And how is that? Are you just going to set up a link to their Web site so they can -- how are you going to be doing that?

583 MR. TEMPLETON: Two ways, Commissioner. First, Dawn Aitken is a good example. Dawn released this. It's a fabulous CD by the way.

584 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And we will try to get it on the air.

585 MR. TEMPLETON: She recently played in Halifax. It was a wonderful concert and Dawn literally personally goes out to record stores and stacks them. That's how difficult it is to try and get distribution, but for the independent artist like that, we would either link if they have a site to the site, or we would try and facilitate the purchase for them at no profit to us whatsoever. It would all go back to the artist and if they have a recording contract, link it to where you can purchase various artists through either the record stores or the record companies Web sites.

586 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So you would do a link to their sited. Secondly, you would say call Dawn Aitken's recording studio or agent, and thirdly would you sort of support the electronic commerce end of it because I would doubt that very many artists themselves would be able to develop the system for paying right on line.

587 MR. TEMPLETON: Yes, we would.

588 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And when are you planning that would come to fruition?

589 MR. TEMPLETON: It would come about from start up. It's part of our plan to have that ready to go the day the transmitter signs on.

590 By the way, I should also mention, Commissioner, that in our application we are proposing we will run 21 announcements per week, promoting new releases, promoting artists, concerts, et cetera. In other words, just promoting the genre of music here and we did not put that down as a direct benefit. It's in the range of $80,000 or $90,000, perhaps $100,000 a year depending on what value you put on a commercial minute, but we have not counted that in our CTD but that's a commitment in our application, that we will run and schedule those.

591 So I think through those various facilities we are really going to make a difference in promoting and helping artists get recognized and sell their products and perhaps get more engagements as well.

592 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you.

593 Now, we are at AVR and the contribution of $516,000. Would this contribution be made if we did not approve your application here?

594 MR. TEMPLETON: It's conditional on our application being approved.

595 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Would this contribution be made if we would not approve Mr. Farmer's application here?

596 MR. TEMPLETON: Yes, it would.

597 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And I'm only talking about the $516,000, not the $84,000 that I think should be taken out of that.

598 MR. TEMPLETON: Are you referring to the retransmitter, Commissioner?

599 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yes.

600 MR. TEMPLETON: Yes, if we are approved, and they are approved, yes, we would put that money to a retransmitter and the maintenance costs for seven years. It's in the range of $600,000 roughly.

601 COMMISSIONER CRAM: A retransmitter here? That's what you would be paying for?

602 MR. TEMPLETON: No, that's just one of many initiatives. As you know, Mr. Farmer and his group will be before you applying for a local service here and if that were approved by the Commission we would provide that retransmitter service and cover the costs of maintaining it for seven years -- if I understood your question correctly.

603 If they weren't, it would go to AVRN and they would be applying for other major urban centres for retransmitter services.

604 COMMISSIONER CRAM: That's what I wanted. So there is, I think it's $84,000 a year that would have been for an announcer here in Vancouver, salary and travelling, and that sort of thing. If AVRN were not licensed here, what would happen to that commitment, and if you were clearly.

605 MR. TEMPLETON: I'm not certain if I got the exact question you were asking.

606 COMMISSIONER CRAM: You have offered to give a certain amount of money -- and I believe it's $516,000 per year for if I can for now call it the network.

607 MR. TEMPLETON: Yes.

608 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And then there is an $84,000 per year commitment for a one-person news bureau in Vancouver and it will consist of $48,000 for journalist's salary and $36,000 for business expenses.

609 MR. TEMPLETON: Yes.

610 COMMISSIONER CRAM: If you get a licence and Mr. Farmer does not, would this commitment still stand?

611 MR. TEMPLETON: Yes, it would.

612 COMMISSIONER CRAM: If you get a licence --

613 MR. TEMPLETON: Commissioner, can I just make sure I'm perfectly clear on that.

614 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yes.

615 MR. TEMPLETON: If they did not have a local service, the AVRN Board, I think, would have to determine if they didn't have a transmitter service here whether that money would be best allocated here with a news bureau when there is no local service or elsewhere or for network development, but it's certainly their wish to have a local service. They, as you know, are trying to establish a national network which is pending a CRTC decision from the Calgary hearing, and their sense is that it's pretty hard a national network without the second largest English-speaking market not represented.

616 So we would certainly provide the funding, but I think at the end of the day it would be up to AVRN, without local retransmitter service, whether it makes sense to have a news bureau here or to apply it to other network development initiatives.

617 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yes.

618 MR. TEMPLETON: But our commitment would stand.

619 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So in the event that AVRN did not obtain the necessary licence for Vancouver, the $84,000 a year would go into, if I can call it the general fund for AVRN.

620 MR. TEMPLETON: Either the news bureau or the general fund. I think Mr. Farmer could probably answer that.

621 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay.

622 And then I wanted to talk to you because I live on expenses, business expenses. $36,0000 to cover travel, phone and out of pocket expenses. Can I apply for this job?

--- Laughter / Rires

623 MR. TEMPLETON: I'll to it myself.

624 COMMISSIONER CRAM: It seems a little high to me, Mr. Templeton, especially when you are apparently going to be giving some substantial office support to this person.

625 Again, your letter of August 28th talks about:

"...Use of space in our facility to accommodate the transmitter, access to office and studio facilities for use by that person, switchboard support..."

which to me means telephone:

"...emergency engineering assistance...". (As read)

626 That leaves $36,000 to --

627 MR. TEMPLETON: It's not travel expenses, Commissioner. There are a number in that catchall.

628 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I have travel, phone and out of pocket expenses.

629 MR. TEMPLETON: Yes. I think Mr. Kennedy would like to respond it, but there is a number of areas that that money will be allocated by.

630 MR. KENNEDY: My understanding, Commissioner, is that the intent is to have an Aboriginal Voices radio presence in Vancouver, but also --

631 COMMISSIONER CRAM: To travel around the province.

632 MR. KENNEDY: And British Columbia being the size it is and the areas we would also be focusing on would be Terrace, Prince George, Kamloops. It's a huge province and I think that's probably even a modest, conservative number when you think how much it costs to cover events and newsworthy items outside.

633 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Ms Greening, what expenses on average do your reporters get per year? What are they? What's the cost of one of your reporters?

634 MS GREENING: There is no travel really involved in Edmonton/Camrose because we have --

635 COMMISSIONER CRAM: You have so many, is that it?

636 MS GREENING: Yes, so it's not really applicable here.

637 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So we can't draw an analysis because we are talking about what appears to be 80 per cent of the salary, another 80 per cent is going to expenses and it doe seems substantial.

638 MR. TEMPLETON: I think, as Mr. Kennedy said, it's a vast province and the Aboriginal communities are spread throughout the province, as you know. There will be a lot of travelling. I'm sure the news director will probably have to hire some part-time help occasionally to cover some Aboriginal stories and events throughout the province. It's a pretty conservative budget when you think you are trying to reflect the Aboriginal news and views and perspectives for the entire province. It's actually a very, very small dollar figure.

639 It's not for meals. So of it is that, but it's not all for that.

640 COMMISSIONER CRAM: We are on the same page, aren't we, that when we are talking about monies that would go to AVRN it would be similar to the decision that we used in Moncton, the commitment issue.

641 MR. TEMPLETON: Would we accept that?

642 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yes.

643 MR. TEMPLETON: Yes, absolutely, yes.

644 COMMISSIONER CRAM: In terms of the AVRN and the $516,000 a year, you said in your letter of August 28, 2000:

"...to facilitate the establishment of an AVRN news bureau in Vancouver..."

And then the next paragraph, and I'm on page 3:

"Funds being allocated to AVRN are to be used as required to help facilitate the launch and operation of the network and its flagship station in Toronto and initiate the process of establishing AVRN retransmitter service in major urban centres across Canada." (As read)

645 MR. TEMPLETON: Yes.

646 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And when I look at this, I see -- I'm going to say essentially two-thirds of CTD are going to a place not specifically Vancouver, and it's the money is coming from Vancouver because it's coming from revenues you will make here, but it is going to a place that is not necessarily Vancouver.

647 Now, I hear Mr. John Steele what you said at pages 18 and 19 on the CTD criteria. What should we do when we compare something like 66 per cent of the benefits leaving the place where they came from to some place outside, compared to somebody who offers benefits that would stay in Vancouver? What do we look at to say one is better than the other? I mean, you addressed the issue that I raised in Calgary. What criteria can we use to say this is better than that one?

648 MR. JOHN STEELE: I think that the difference in this is that's the start of hopefully a national network so that there's a lot of extra infrastructure costs that have to come in. So I think it's very unique and that's what separates it from the other groups that are proposing what they are doing with their CTD development.

649 We are dealing with a group of people that are largely marginalized in Canada, and I think that's very significant.

650 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So is it somewhat similar to the argument that we had with la Chaîne culturelle, that the regional needs are essentially subsumed to the national need?

651 MR. JOHN STEELE: Well, I think there are two benefits for us here. As we just said it's the start of a national network, but I think if you also look at out application here, we have B.C.-based artists that are supporting our application. We have Dawn Aitken, we have Joe Coughlin and I think that they realize that locally we are very good on that front and I think we are going to help nationally with the Aboriginal community.

652 MR. TEMPLETON: Commissioner, if I could add to that. If a national network, if it's approved by the Commission, it's up and running, the Vancouver Aboriginal community will benefit from a national news service here locally. The closest comparison I guess it's back, way, way back, when the CBC firs started.

653 A network was first established and then local programming developed over time as funds permitted. But people in regions without local service as such were getting a national service so there would be a huge benefit there to the Vancouver and area Aboriginal community.

654 MR. JOHN STEELE: There is one point, Commissioner Cram, that I can add to that that I forgot to put in there, is that this is also an opportunity not only for Aboriginal artists to be heard on their own network, but also hopefully it will be a springboard that they can get in the mainstream media. So I think it adds another benefit to what we are proposing here.

655 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yes.

656 MR. TEMPLETON: Commissioner, I also didn't want to make a commitment for Mr. Farmer. I think he should do this, but it is our understand that regardless of whether they are approved or not the news bureau will be established here in Vancouver. It's another benefit as well.

657 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Well then can we say that your $84,000 commitment will only go to the establishment of a news bureau?

658 MR. TEMPLETON: That's my understanding, but AVR, I think has the final decision on that. It's my understanding that is what they are planning to do and if you wanted an absolute commitment on that, I think, if I understand you correctly, Mr. Farmer would have to make that. But I believe that's their intention. It's hard to have a network without representation from Vancouver.

659 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I hear you. My question to you is: are you limiting your offer of a CTD? The same way as you did a condition of artists in soft jazz, you would only give the money if they established a news correspondent here. I mean, this is you and that's what your other benefits were doing, is you were saying only in British Columbia, only in smooth jazz.

660 So are you going to do a similar one here only if you establish a news bureau?

661 MR. TEMPLETON: Commissioner, maybe this will answer your question. We have pledged $4.2 million. If we are awarded a licence in Vancouver every penny of that $4.2 million will go to AVRN, all of that. So it all is on the table. Is that --?

662 COMMISSIONER CRAM: No.

663 MR. TEMPLETON: I'm sorry.

664 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Are you going to earmark $84,000 a year only if they have and only to a news person in Vancouver otherwise there will be no grant to them of that $84,000.

665 MR. TEMPLETON: I'm sorry, I'm having some difficulty understanding what your question is. It's out understanding that they are going to establish this news bureau and we are going to fund that, and we are committed to that. I think Mr. Farmer has to do that. I don't know that I can tell them that's what they have to do with that money, but that's what our discussions have been and it's our understanding. Is that better?

666 COMMISSIONER CRAM: No. The question is in the CTD you are prepared to go to FACTOR and say this money is only to go to smooth jazz in Vancouver. You are not prepared or are you prepared to go to AVRN and say, "Here's $84,000 only if you establish a news bureau in Vancouver". That's my question.

667 MR. TEMPLETON: Yes, we will, Commissioner.

668 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So the CTD then will be $84,000 to AVRN only if they establish a news bureau in Vancouver.

669 MR. TEMPLETON: Yes, I can make that a condition.

670 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay.

671 And if they don't, the money would go to FACTOR.

672 MR. TEMPLETON: That would certainly be a viable option.

673 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I don't want to -- I just want to be really clear about where we are headed on this.

674 Now we are getting to my very favourite part, Category 2 and 3, which is -- and I have several notes all over about that.

675 If we can start with Category 2 and Category 2 is primarily vocal. Do I understand we have that down?

676 MR. TEMPLETON: Yes.

677 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And at page 13,14, hopefully this is your final word on where we are going --

678 MR. TEMPLETON: Are you referring to the supplementary brief?

679 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Sorry, no I'm referring to your presentation.

680 MR. TEMPLETON: Okay.

681 COMMISSIONER CRAM: You know the problem is we talk our own language, we talk Category 2 and 3, and we don't talk smooth jazz and stuff like that. So I need to get a little help here.

682 Sixty per cent, Ms Zanetti, at the very bottom of page 13:

"... 60 per cent smooth jazz instrumentals and vocals by contemporary local, national and international smooth jazz stars".

683 So have I got that right that that is both Category 2 and 3?

684 MS ZANETTI: Correct.

685 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay.

686 And then you say:

"... at least 50 per cent of our music will be instrumental".

687 MR. TEMPLETON: That's our intention.

688 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Which if I understand it correctly is Category 3.

689 MR. TEMPLETON: Yes.

690 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And then out of this 50 per cent of Category 3, if I got it right, you are committing to 20 per cent Cancon.

691 MR. TEMPLETON: On the instrumental portion?

692 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yes.

693 MR. TEMPLETON: That's correct.

694 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay.

695 So Category 3 -- I'm just trying to get --

696 MR. TEMPLETON: This may help clarify. What we have said is a minimum of 20 per cent, we intend to have more than 50 per cent instrument. So overall, our Cancon will be a minimum of 20 per cent. The Canadian portion of that it has been difficult for us how we were going to quantify Cancon because there is no recognized charts for that so it's a little difficult to try and anticipate that, but our minimum requirement, the minimum condition of licence we would accept is 20 per cent with over 50 per cent instrument.

697 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay.

So -- and I just want to summarize -- Category 3, over 50 per cent, at least 50 per cent.

698 MR. TEMPLETON: Yes.

699 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And Cancon in Category 3 will be 20 per cent.

700 MR. TEMPLETON: Yes.

701 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay.

702 So then Category 2, which is primarily vocal and jazz, have I got you right that if you have more than 35 per cent, but less than 50 per cent of Category 2, you will have Cancon of 25 per cent?

703 MR. TEMPLETON: Correct.

704 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And that's during any given week, is that correct?

705 MR. TEMPLETON: That's correct.

706 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And if you have more than 50 per cent of Category 2, you will have 20 per cent Canadian content.

707 MR. TEMPLETON: Correct.

708 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And we are not blending, here, we are going in Category 3 and the two levels of Category 2.

709 MR. TEMPLETON: Yes, Commissioner. Most of the music we will play will qualify as specialty music from Category 3, but to that extent, we will, of course, meet the 35 per cent requirement on those selections that are not specialty music from Category 3. Does that help clarify that?

710 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay.

711 So if it is not Category 3 music, you will go back to the minimum 35 per cent in Category 2.

712 MR. TEMPLETON: Yes.

713 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I think we have clarified the --

714 MR. TEMPLETON: Yes. It's sometimes a little confusing. We intend to have basically a pure smooth jazz radio station, so we wouldn't have any problem meeting those requirements.

715 COMMISSIONER CRAM: What about the distribution commitment? Is that also sort of a stand-alone commitment, on its own, 6:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m., Monday through Friday.

716 MR. TEMPLETON: Will we evenly distribute those categories?

717 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yes.

718 MR. TEMPLETON: Yes.

719 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay.

720 So that's stand-alone, essentially.

721 MR. TEMPLETON: Yes.

722 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Or umbrella would be a better word to say.

723 MR. TEMPLETON: Yes. It would be evenly distributed throughout and so would the Cancon, of course, throughout all the part evenly.

724 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay.

725 So there is a whole bunch of questions I don't have to ask now.

726 I want to go to the issue of -- well, I guess I should start off, Mr. Doering, with your survey and I might be missing part of my file.

727 First you did a study in July of 1999. Is that correct?

728 MR. DOERING: That's correct.

729 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And then do I understand that in July, 2000, you looked at the study that you did and came up with another set of recommendations?

730 MR. DOERING: That's correct.

731 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And can you tell me in your original study where the smooth Jazz NAC is?

732 MR. DOERING: Yes.

733 COMMISSIONER CRAM: In terms of format. I will tell you what I have. I have your old study and I have -- at page 6 of the questions you were asking --

734 MR. DOERING: Correct.

735 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And you do know on that questionnaire that you asked people about radio licences available in the Hamilton area. You knew that, didn't you -- question on the top of page 11. Anyway, there is a question about the time of music. I have it marked as page 6.

736 MR. DOERING: Correct.

737 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And where is the smooth jazz -- NAC/smooth jazz there?

738 MR. DOERING: It's fourth from the bottom.

739 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So the people in this study -- and here you call it "pop jazz" --

740 MR. DOERING: We don't use -- the title is not read to the people, just the artists' list. That's just for our own --

741 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So the people were asked: Would you like a station with George Benson, John Tesh, Warren Hill, Kenny G, Grover Washington Jr.?

742 MR. DOERING: That's correct.

743 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay.

744 And in your analysis of it, in the first round, I think you called it something different other than the smooth jazz/NAC, didn't you? You called it new age country?

745 MR. DOERING: Contemporary.

746 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Contemporary, that's what that means, okay.

--- Laughter / Rires

747 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I'm thinking country is a little away from --

748 And so you just usee your old data and came up with your conclusions. Is that --

749 MR. DOERING: We used our existing data from the original study because it's habit and Newcap's habit to approach each market with a clean sheet of paper and evaluate a number of formats. It enables us to take a look at the appeal of all those formats and if subsequent to getting to the hearing someone introduces a format, as happened in this case, we are able to go back and see if that's taken, what appears to be the next best choice, taking a look at the radio landscape as it now exists, and that's what we did.

750 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And you talked about the particular attraction of this format to visible minorities and how did you discern visible minorities? Now, I know I have your questions and you have a list of -- do you mind telling us if you are a "hyphenated Canadian"? Is that how you ascertain visible minorities?

751 MR. DOERING: Yes, that's correct.

752 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay.

753 And which ones from your "hyphenated Canadians" did you say would be visible? All of them or just -- which ones of them?

754 MR. DOERING: Not all of them in the list, naturally.

755 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yes.

756 MR. DOERING: Basically -- I can look back and get the exact ones. I don't -- you know, we have African, African-Canadian, East Indian, West Indian, Jamaican. We go through and make a judgement based on that.

757 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And when you talk about the demand of visible minorities for this kind of music, is it significantly higher than those of other non-visible minorities or majorities?

758 MR. DOERING: Well, of the audience, the composition, as was stated, is 10 per cent higher than the natural population. So overall our data indicated that 20 per cent identified themselves as visible minority, and of this audience it's 22 per cent. So it's 10 per cent higher. It's not the majority of the audience, but it is higher than the natural flow in the population.

759 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay.

760 And does this represent a level of interest by visible minorities in this type of station significantly higher in this station, this kind of format, than any other format?

761 MR. DOERING: Not of any other format, but it is above average.

762 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Is the same above-average interest there for the urban format?

763 MR. DOERING: I would have to look, but I could tell you that.

764 COMMISSIONER CRAM: In your application, you talked about expecting to draw 1.3 share points from non-commercial or out of market stations. Have you got any breakdown of that?

765 MR. DOERING: Well, we know that the people who are likely to listen to this particular format, approximately 15 or 16 per cent indicate that they are listening to either non-commercial, out of town stations, or they aren't listening at all. Two share points are available from people who currently have no particular favourite or aren't listening to the radio at all.

766 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Who are disinterested.

767 MR. DOERING: Disinterested. So there are two share points there. There is also 14 share points available from non-commercial and out of town stations. So we are indicating that we withdraw from that availability.

768 THE CHAIRPERSON: It's certainly a little earlier than we had originally anticipated, but I think this is probably a good time to take our lunch break.

769 We will be back at two o'clock to finish questioning this panel.

770 MR. DOERING: Thank you.

--- Upon recessing at 1210 / Suspension à 1210

--- Upon resuming at 1408 / Reprise à 1408

771 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon.

772 We will now continue with the questioning of your panel.

773 Thank you.

774 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you. I'm glad you came back.

--- Laughter / Rires

775 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I want to clarify CRTC's peak in terms of Category 3 and Category 2 because I think I misapprehended.

776 If I said that -- I started off right by saying you are going to have a minimum of 60 per cent smooth jazz, instrumentals and vocals, and you said that at page 13.

777 MR. TEMPLETON: Yes.

778 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And that is, in fact, all Category 3. Is that not correct?

779 MR. TEMPLETON: Smooth jazz, 60 per cent? Yes, this is all Category 3.

780 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay.

781 So then your station will have at least 60 per cent -- minimum 60 per cent -- Category 3.

782 MR. TEMPLETON: Yes.

783 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And within that you will have a minimum of 20 per cent Cancon.

784 MR. TEMPLETON: Yes.

785 COMMISSIONER CRAM: The rest, which is Category 2 --

786 MR. TEMPLETON: No, it is not. The Canadian -- may this is an opportune time to maybe clarify that.

787 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Certainly.

788 MR. TEMPLETON: The 20 per cent Cancon, there is no way that we are aware of, unless you can give us some guidelines, of ensuring that the Canadian is all smooth jazz. Now, obviously we want it to be all smooth jazz because that is what we are going to operate, a smooth jazz radio station. But it's difficult to characterize it because there is no recognized charts, we took our 20 per cent Cancon, put it aside, didn't count it in our jazz equation, and then said of the remaining 80, a minimum of 60 per cent will be for recognized smooth jazz charts, internationally recognized smooth jazz charts, which ensures that we, in fact, will be a smooth jazz radio station and not a mixture of AC.

789 Does that help?

790 COMMISSIONER CRAM: No, that doesn't help me one bit.

791 MR. TEMPLETON: Pardon me?

792 COMMISSIONER CRAM: No, it doesn't help me one bit. I will start off again. So 60 per cent will be Category 3.

793 MR. TEMPLETON: Correct.

794 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Category 3 has in its subcategory 34, which is jazz and blues, which is virtually every kind of jazz and blues.

795 MR. TEMPLETON: Yes.

796 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And so of your Category 3, which will be a minimum of 60 per cent of your programming, how much will be Canadian content?

797 MR. TEMPLETON: Twenty per cent.

798 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And of the other 40 per cent programming -- up to 40 per cent programming -- that will be Category 2?

799 MR. TEMPLETON: Some of it will be Category 3. The Canadian portion will be almost exclusively Category 3. That's over and above the 60 per cent commitment, and the other 20 per cent, a good portion of it will be Category 3 as well. But anything that's not Category 3, we would accept as a condition of licence 35 per cent.

800 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay.

801 So you are really saying you will play 60 per cent Category 3 plus Cancon of 20 per cent of total --

802 MR. TEMPLETON: Yes, which will --

803 COMMISSIONER CRAM:  -- total of the 100.

804 MR. TEMPLETON: Which the vast majority will be of Category 3, but it's hard to define it when it's not recognized in any charts that we are aware of. So that's over and above.

805 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay.

806 Sixty per cent will be Category 3 plus 20 per cent of a 100 -- we are not talking 20 per cent of the 60 per cent.

807 MR. TEMPLETON: No.

808 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Twenty per cent of the 100 will in addition be Cancon smooth jazz?

809 MR. TEMPLETON: For the most part, almost all of it. There may be the odd time something is not in Category 3, but the vast majority will be Canadian smooth jazz. So that's over and above the 60 per cent.

810 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And the remaining 20 per cent will be in Category 2?

811 MR. TEMPLETON: Yes.

812 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And in Category 2, with that remaining 20 per cent, it will be a minimum 35 per cent Cancon.

813 MR. TEMPLETON: Correct.

814 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So if I dared to say -- and I can't I guess, because you are saying that 20 per cent Cancon will be either smooth jazz or what?

815 MR. TEMPLETON: The odd tune might come from Category 2 Canadian, very soft AC artists that work with the smooth jazz format. There are some, but it would certainly be a very minority of that 20 per cent.

816 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay, I hear you.

817 Could you, if we have a problem with that type of formula, live with the following: a minimum of 60 per cent in Category 3, 20 per cent of which will be Canadian content. The remaining up to 40 per cent will be Category 2, and if it is under 35 per cent, it will be 35 per cent Cancon. If it is over 35 per cent, it will be 25 per cent Cancon.

818 MR. TEMPLETON: Yes.

819 COMMISSIONER CRAM: What is your understanding of the whole -- you were referring to reasonable distribution. Can you sort of explain to me what you meant by that?

820 MR. TEMPLETON: Well, that you don't ghettoize any of the -- whether it's Cancon or whether it's smooth jazz. This is a smooth jazz radio station and almost all of the music -- the vast majority -- will be smooth jazz. We pledged a minimum of 60 per cent because we just couldn't figure a way of properly identifying the Canadian portion of it, so that's over and above.

821 Am I answering your question?

822 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Cancon, just the reasonable distribution of Cancon.

823 MR. TEMPLETON: The distribution of it would be in equal date parts between mornings, mid-days, drive, evening drive. It would be evenly distributed from 6:00 to midnight, both Cancon and the smooth jazz components.

824 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay.

825 And you would be happy with the regulatory requirements of that?

826 MR. TEMPLETON: Yes.

827 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay.

828 We were talking about the sample CD and it struck me that what we are really talking about is not really $91,000 every year, but we are really talking about an average of $91,000 per year for a total of $637,000 over the seven years.

829 MR. TEMPLETON: Yes.

830 COMMISSIONER CRAM: That's correct?

831 MR. TEMPLETON: It was our intention to say that the $91,000 was our minimum annual commitment.

832 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Oh, so the minimum -- it's a minimum annual commitment of $91,000.

833 MR. TEMPLETON: That was our intention, yes.

834 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Now, I want to go back to the disinteresteds, the out of market listening and Mr. Doering, I have the spring BBMs of this year. I understand your position that you will be taking some listening, of course, from the in station, in market stations, but the out of market listening seems to be pretty locked in.

835 I see 4 per cent going to Rogers in Chilliwack, and that's with their new -- well, that's the one that changed its format -- 1 per cent to Victoria which is CKKQ-FM, and 2.3 to the top U.S., none of which, if I understand it, do soft jazz, and I also see the only sort of soft jazz on the reader screen being KPLU which has a listenership or a share of .015.

836 So where is this 1.3 share points? Where are they really coming from?

837 MR. DOERING: Well, 1.3 that's share points. So we know from our survey, BBM only outlines people who are listening. We know that there is two share points of our audience who aren't listening at all. So if we get half of them, that's one. If we get .3 from the other 5, 6 or 7 per cent that's available, which is less than 10 per cent of them, we should get the 1.3 share points.

838 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay.

839 So you are counting on getting one share out of the disinteresteds.

840 MR. DOERING: Yes, who aren't listening at all and who have indicated that they would be very likely to listen to this particular format. It's not available so it's something that's not out there and now they will have it.

841 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Ah, okay. Thank you.

842 MR. DOERING: Also, Commissioner, I did respond to your questions on --

843 COMMISSIONER CRAM: You mean the one about the minorities?

844 MR. DOERING: Yes. We had 34 different categories that people could describe themselves as, if they chose to. Twelve of them we used as visible minority -- African, African-Canadian, Caribbean, Chinese, Filipino, East Indian, West Indian, Jamaican, Japanese, Mexican, Middle-Eastern, and Spanish.

845 You also asked the proportion of visible minorities that would fall into the urban, those whom showed interest in our survey in urban music. The overall proportion of our sample, as I indicated, was 21 per cent identified as one of those visible minority categories. Twenty-two per cent of the smooth jazz audience identified themselves as a visible minority, and 26 per cent who showed interest in the urban music described themselves as a minority.

846 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So do I understand you correctly then, Mr. Doering, that 20 per cent of your sample of 600 were visible minorities, as you have defined them?

847 MR. DOERING: Yes, 20 per cent of our sample indicated that they fell into one of the categories which we said were visible minority, yes, that's correct.

848 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So it would be 120.

849 MR. DOERING: No, 80 per cent -- 20 per cent fell into one of the visible and 80 fell into the other, for a total of -- oh, 120 people? Yes, sorry. I thought you were saying 120 per cent. I would have to do a hand recount.

--- Laughter / Rires

850 COMMISSIONER CRAM: No, 120 individuals.

851 MR. DOERING: That's correct.

852 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I confess, as I did in Calgary, that I got 63 in math. So anytime I start getting into numbers I can always be wrong.

853 Moving on to frequencies, you have provided us with a list here from Promethean Electronics and this is the study you were referring to in your presentation. Is that right?

854 MR. DOERING: Yes.

855 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And why do you think in this case -- and I recognize that what you filed with us, the second last frequency you referred to is 94.1. It should in reality be 94.5.

856 MR. DOERING: The frequency we are applying for? Yes, 94.5.

857 MR. TEMPLETON: That was a typo. I apologies.

858 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yes, I just wanted to clarify it for the record.

859 MR. DOERING: Yes, 94.5.

860 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And why do you say this frequency should be given to you rather than the CBC?

861 MR. TEMPLETON: This is a full coverage C licence which we based our business plan on. It's very wide in its coverage area. The demand for smooth jazz far outweighs the demand for a second French service. We don't deny that the service is required in Vancouver, but it's very low in demand. Mr. Doering can, I think, comment further on that.

862 The local benefits that are brought to the community at 94.5, it allows us to achieve, we think, a more sound revenue base to honour all of our CTD benefits. But that was the reason we researched the market, found and saw that that was the frequency that would give us the largest coverage area to maximize this format and maximize spectrum efficiency.

863 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And why should you get the licences as opposed to any of the other commercial applicants?

864 MR. DOERING: Well, I'm glad you asked.

865 We put a lot of effort in making sure we put together a very comprehensive list of benefits, and I just wanted to refer to my notes, if I could, because I don't want to forget any of them.

--- Pause / Pause

866 MR. DOERING: First off, we think we bring a very unique perspective to Canadian talent development initiatives. It's both local, it's both music-oriented to the smooth jazz community, but also we have what we think is a very innovative and wonderful AVRN initiative with our Aboriginal partners.

867 We think we have identified the format, and I think others have as well. We have committed to a high instrumental ratio to ensure that this will be a smooth jazz radio station and not some facsimile of a soft AC.

868 We have committed almost $5 million more than other applicant to the programming and news and foreground programming of this radio station over seven years.

869 Our Canadian talent development initiatives totally put us certainly within earshot of the large, huge broadcasting corporations that are four, five and six times our size. So that's a very large commitment for a company of our size.

870 We have promised employment equity from day one. The day we sign on, we will represent approximately the breakdown or the breakout of the Vancouver area from the four designated groups.

871 Our news, we have put a tremendous emphasis on news commitment as far as the numbers of newscast and features, et cetera, but also the monies to that. We have committed 50 per cent local news, 25 per cent regional news so it truly will reflect the local community. That and the fact that our news reporters will be representative of the Vancouver population from the various minority groups.

872 We think we bring more diversity than any other applicant from a news standpoint, from an ownership standpoint, from the AVRN newspoint, our employment equity standpoint, all of this adds up to tremendous new diversity in the Vancouver market.

873 We have no affiliation with any media outlets in British Columbia at all -- newspaper, television, et cetera. Going back to the AVRN initiative, this is something that we have presented before to the Commission and you have accepted it in the past as recently as Moncton and we are very appreciative of that. I think it's giving us some confidence that you see the validity of this and it has to be Aboriginals being able to communicate openly across Canada.

874 And the decisions that have come down in Moncton with Toronto flagship station are very encouraging to us. It's an initiative we are very proud of and we think that also positions us well to be a good local broadcaster.

875 The only other point I would add -- I have always said look at our track record. We have a flawless track record with the CRTC. We honour all of our commitments. If you go to any of the communities we operate in, in Calgary when we applied, the Mayor of Edmonton endorsed our application. I think that speaks to how involved we get in communities, whether it be Gander or Thunder Bay or Edmonton.

876 We have a presence in western Canada, in Edmonton and we would like to expand it into Vancouver, the second largest English-speaking city in Canada.

877 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Two other questions. Would you be willing to take another FM frequency if it could be found?

878 MR. TEMPLETON: Yes.

879 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Would you be willing to use an AM frequency?

880 MR. TEMPLETON: No.

881 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I was going to do a leading question -- tell me why you won't use an AM frequency, but I figured it out.

882 Thank you very much.

--- Laughter / Rires

883 MR. TEMPLETON: Thank you.

884 COMMISSIONER CRAM: After Calgary.

--- Laughter / Rires

885 THE CHAIRPERSON: I have a couple of questions.

886 Earlier when Commissioner Cram was questioning you on the -- I think it was the jazz festival sponsorship, you referenced relationships you have with other jazz festivals -- or festivals, I wasn't quite sure which -- in other markets and I wonder if you could -- what I was interested in are they jazz festivals or other kinds of music festivals?

887 MR. TEMPLETON: No, these are jazz festivals. I will comment on Toronto because I have had a lot of personal involvement over the number of years with the Toronto Jazz Festival and the Principal, Mr. Patrick Taylor who is intervening at these hearings, and then I will call of Jackie Rae Greening just to talk about Edmonton and the association there and Anna Zanetti can refer to our activities with the Halifax Jazz Festival.

888 In Toronto, we have cosponsored a number of events with the Toronto Jazz Festival. We have a very strong working relationship. We have been associated with them for a lot of years. More recently our Internet media company, Iceberg Media, has had quite a bit of dealings with the Toronto International Jazz Festival.

889 As you probably know, it's a huge festival that attracts about 750,000 people. It's a major, major event, and now with the tobacco advertising being withdrawn from all these festivals, it's getting tougher and tougher to maintain these wonderful exhibitions.

890 Mr. Taylor and I have been associated for decades and we have a mutual respect and we have always worked very, very well together. They have always delivered on their promises and we have always delivered on ours and I think that's why they are endorsing our application, that we would bring credibility to the Vancouver jazz scene, and not to put words in his mouth, but the Vancouver decision has ramifications -- it's the start of seeing smooth jazz grow as a format.

891 I don't know if this is an appropriate time, but I have been doing a lot of research, as a number of us have over the past six months, and I recall reading that the Great Duke Ellington -- who some claim knew a thing or two about jazz -- back in the 1950s he made a prediction, that pop and jazz would crosspolinate at some point down the road and he was absolutely right. In the year 2000 it has finally come about and it's getting stronger and stronger. It has been in the States for 10, 11 years, and it's starting now to present itself in Canada and we see this proliferating hopefully across the country in the years to come.

892 That's the association with the Toronto Jazz Festival.

893 Anna, would you like to comment on Halifax?

894 MS ZANETTI: Yes. In Halifax, we have been sponsors of the Halifax Jazz Festival with promoting it on the air, giving tickets away to the shows and also sending the announcers out to the events to actually introduce the acts there.

895 THE CHAIRPERSON: Are all of these relationships and all of the sponsorship funds that you advance, are they part of Canadian talent commitments or some of them are just corporate initiatives that you undertake as part of being a good citizen?

896 MR. TEMPLETON: I don't believe we have ever earmarked Canadian talent development monies that were owing on licences to jazz festivals in the past because we have not had a smooth jazz or jazz station. These are just great community events, whether it in be Edmonton, Halifax or, hopefully, in Vancouver, that we get behind these events and a number of other events and we provide a lot of resources, not just some promotion or announcements.

897 If you recall in Calgary, when the Canada Day Festival organizers said, "They provide a lot more than just announcements, they provide staff and they send their engineers out". I mean, this is the way we do our business in our communities. We are very, very active in all of our communities, and again I just stand on that track record.

898 We are very proud that we get the endorsement of a lot of community groups because we are so plugged into our community. It's good for the community and it's good for business as well.

899 THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, it certainly strikes me that a jazz station, or a licensee proposing a jazz format, that it would be an obvious to have a strong relationship with the jazz festival, that it would be beneficial to the business, and it would also be part of being a good corporate citizen, which brings me to why you would have it as a Canadian talent development and not just part of doing business.

900 I say that because, you know, Vancouver is, as you acknowledged -- and I think everybody here would acknowledge -- underlicensed with respect to FM frequencies. It's growing and it's possibly one of the most lucrative and profitable markets in the country.

901 So certainly from the perspective of the panel looking to evaluate the different applications, it's looking at ways to -- if we say it's public property that we are looking to licence to private broadcasters, how do we maximize the benefits to the public? So that was really the nature of my question, how much of this initiative is something that you might be doing any way as opposed to being part of Canadian --

902 MR. TEMPLETON: We did not put it down in benefits, but we -- and I'm sure many other applicants -- over and above the commitment to the jazz festival, we will also be providing resources and getting very involved. With an additional $100,000, it provides the jazz festivals an opportunity to showcase even more Canadian music. They may not be able to sponsor as much -- it's easy to get a big crowd out for the big marquee player south of the border. It's a little more challenging to do with local talent, with a few exceptions.

903 We hope to create the music in CD form, get it distributed, get it on the air, get people exposed to it and say, "I like that". I will use this lady as an example. I went to one of her shows, and coincidentally it was in Halifax, just two weeks ago. This lady is a star. I mean she is a star. If she got airplay, she would be a star in this country. She has a voice just to die for. I mean not just a good voice, I mean a professionally trained voice and it's a shame. Because any other genre of music she would be signing autographs in the hall.

904 So we want to produce the music, we want to expose it on the air, and then we want to showcase it in the jazz festivals, and with the provision of an extra $100,000, that will ensure that a number of acts that normally wouldn't get exposed, will get exposed. So that's part of our strategy. It's a two-prong approach.

905 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

906 I think Commissioner Cardozo has a question.

907 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thanks.

908 There are two things I wanted to ask you about some fairly interesting aspects of your application with regards to the diversity of the country and the Vancouver area.

909 You have made some fairly substantial commitments for the network AVRN. Is it your sense that they will be able to fulfil what they have applied for at the Calgary hearing without this type of backing. As you mentioned earlier in the Moncton licence that the Commission had provided you, there was a much smaller amount going to AVRN there.

910 What's the difference between that, which is sort of taken care of, and this which you are offering should you be licensed here?

911 MR. TEMPLETON: As you will recall Moncton, I believe the benefit was a little over $300,000.

912 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I think some $37,000 a year.

913 MR. TEMPLETON: I would have to refer to my notes, Commissioner, and that's a start, but it's not going to make a national network, but it is a start. The benefit here is $4.2 million. Now, we are starting to build a war chest, if we are approved. We are starting to be able to build a revenue source where they can start to really truly unfold a national network. As you know, it's pending for CRTC approval at the Calgary hearing, the national network licence has been approved, the flagship station.

914 To answer your question, this would go a long way in helping the Aboriginal Voices Radio Network become established. Without it, it would be --I would have to say it would almost be impossible to support a national service because right now all that AVRN has promised is about $900,000 and, as you know, you could not possibly unfold a national network with that.

915 So we are very hopeful, if we are approved down the road, that some more substantial amounts, like the $4.2 million here in Vancouver, will certainly go a long way in that direction. Does that answer your question?

916 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Yes.

917 MR. TEMPLETON: Okay.

918 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: With regards to employment equity, Newcap would have more than 100 employees. Am I correct?

919 MR. TEMPLETON: Yes.

920 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So you would coming under the Federal Employment Equity Legislation anyhow which covers federally regulated companies and that part of it doesn't come under our mandate. We look at companies with less than 100 and over 100 it's the Canadian Human Rights Commission.

921 MR. TEMPLETON: Yes.

922 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So what is it about your application that goes beyond what you already have to do, what Newcap already has to do with regards to employment equity?

923 MR. TEMPLETON: Well, we have promised full employment equity day one, number one. Number two, I don't have it with me. David, do you have our statistics on employment equity?

924 David can comment on our -- we have an initiative in our company to get up to employment equity as soon as possible. With new licences it's wonderful because you can start day one. And we have made tremendous progress and we are very proud of our employment equity and track record to date. We are at the expected levels or above in most categories and we have a little room in a couple, but we are making progress.

925 The other aspect of that is Vancouver is a very diverse ethnic community, as you know. I worked in this market a number of years ago for Jan Von Brucken, one of the ethnic broadcasters who passed away a couple of years ago and I'm fully aware of -- and the ethnic community has expended somewhat since then. But this is a very diverse community and we intend to reflect that through our employees with employment equity and our news people.

926 Dave Murray, if you would like, can talk about our track record on employment equity in our company.

927 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Sure.

928 MR. TEMPLETON: David.

929 MR. MURRAY: Yes, I would like to address the question: what are we doing that is not required by HRDC first off. We have just completed -- or actually we are sort of still in progress of an employment equity audit from HRDC. It started back probably four or give months ago and it's quite an involved process. There is a not of statistical analysis, et cetera, and basically what HRDC requires companies with more than 100 employees is to be at or around the average in the industry in each occupational group.

930 So to give you an example of that, on-air employees in almost every major city and Canada-wide, females make up only about 15 to 20 per cent of on-air positions. So if we are at that 15 to 20 per cent in each of the markets that have a station, then -- I won't say that they are completely satisfied, but we have sort of passed the audit. In Vancouver and in Calgary and in Moncton where we have had applications and have had approvals, we are committing to much more than that. We are committing to every position, every department employ what actually exists in the population.

931 So in Vancouver which has 15.8 per cent females, our staff will be 15.8 -- you know, I mean, you can't have 15.8, but --

932 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: What happens if you have 100 employees?

933 MR. MURRAY: Good question.

934 Thirty-one point one per cent of visible minorities. We will strive for exactly that level, 11.6 per cent persons with disabilities.

935 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: My question is: given that you already have employment equity requirements under the Employment Equity Act of being a federally regulated company, the new part here is that you are saying you're starting from scratch and you are going to be giving this issue a high priority in the hiring of people.

936 MR. TEMPLETON: Yes, but we will far surpass the targets of the Canadian Human Rights Commission. They are much lower than fair representation of the community. As an example, if I'm not mistaken, I think in the female category -- David, I think it's 35 per cent, where the reality is that it's 50 per cent. So we are saying we are going way beyond that. We will represent the community at large, approximately 11 per cent disabled, a couple of per cent Aboriginal, approximately 30, 31 per cent visible minorities and 50 per cent female.

937 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I have a question for Mr. Doering on the studies that you have done where you talked about the interest in this genre of music among visible minorities.

938 Were you looking at visible minorities as a group, as one group -- you have outlined the, I guess, 12 or 13 different groups that are in there -- or were you looking at specific ethnic groups within the ones you mentioned?

939 MR. DOERING: We used the individuals to come up with an overall percentage which I gave. With a sample size of 600 you can only look at the overall.

940 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And this survey was done where?

941 MR. DOERING: It was done in Vancouver/CMA.

942 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay.

943 So this isn't the Hamilton study.

944 MR. DOERING: No.

945 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I wanted to clarify that because the ethnic composition in southern Ontario, around the Toronto area is quite different than it is here.

946 MR. DOERING: This was the Vancouver study.

947 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: On the matter of soft jazz, Mr. Templeton, you mentioned Dawn Aitken as not the star that she ought to be given that we don't have enough jazz outlets in this country.

948 Why do you think we haven't developed that far in soft jazz to date? There is a lot of interest at this hearing and some very good applications for it.

949 MR. TEMPLETON: Well you know, unfortunately we tend to be a little behind the Americans in this country in a lot of things and what happens in the States sometimes, over time, starts to show up in Canada. We have watched all the broadcasters. I'm sure all the applicants have watched with fascination the development. Who could have predicted that this format would take off the way it did. It's a baby-boomer format and I guess we are at that age now where we want things a little more mellow and a little more mature, a little more high profile and as far as the artists, there is just no exposure, I mean with the exception really of Diana Krall. I mean, who is getting any kind of airplay in this country? Very, very little, and so unfortunately they have to look south of the border, the Seattles and the L.A.s, and hopefully get some exposure there.

950 But it hasn't been exposed, whether it be radio or TV, but it is becoming a major factor and it's not a niche. This is a mainstream format, based on the American experience, but more importantly on our research. This isn't a niche format. This is a mainstream format. There is a huge demand for it.

951 So to answer your question, I think the Dawn Aitkens and the Joe Coughlins of the world just aren't getting the airplay. It's not because the talent isn't there. Look at any other great Canadian. If they weren't getting the airplay, they probably would be still toughen it up.

952 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Lastly, I just want your thoughts on the issue of local reflection and how and if that translates to the issue of local ownership.

953 Among the applicants who have applied for a station here, the owners are based in Vancouver, based in Calgary, based in Toronto, Montreal and you are the furthest away you can get from Vancouver.

954 Does local -- does the ownership, where the owner is based, is that something we should be taking into consideration? I guess, one of our main stated goals has more to do with local reflection, diversity of news voices in the market, and some will argue a local owner can do better than an owner from somewhere else.

955 I'm just wondering what your thoughts are around that and whether that is something we should be looking at or how we should be treating it.

956 MR. TEMPLETON: I don't think it matters what part of Canada your head office is. We choose to live in Halifax. The roots of our company are eastern-based. Our Chairman and CEO and founder is a native Newfoundlander and a proud Newfoundlander. We choose to live in Halifax -- quality of life, roots, et cetera. But I don't think it matters.

957 In very short order, we will be Vancouverites just as we, you know, represent and reflect Edmonton in a very, very thorough way and I think that's why we get so much support from communities like that.

958 I think if you went into any market we operate in, they're local. They don't think of us as Halifax or eastern, they think of us as the local station, whether it be in Thunder Bay or Corner Brook or Edmonton.

959 So just as some of the existing broadcasters may be based in Toronto, but they come here and they have been entrenched in the community for a lot of years and if they are good responsible broadcasters then their local management and staff reflect their local community, and if you don't, you are not very successful. Radio is a local medium. It's very local. Network radio is not, other than the CBC, really a factor in this country like it is in say the States. It's local and so you must become entrenched in the local community, hire local people and commit to your local coverage area.

960 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thanks.

961 Thank you, Madam Chair.

962 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

963 Legal Counsel, please.

964 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.l

965 You discussed briefly with Commissioner Cram other possible FM frequencies.

966 Do you have any studies, engineering studies on this issue, on the availability of FM frequencies in Vancouver?

967 MR. TEMPLETON: Yes, we do.

968 MR. RHÉAUME: Could you summarize the content of the studies and maybe provide a copy to the Commission?

969 MR. TEMPLETON: I could. I can give you a quick summary and then if you want to expand on that, John Mathews, our engineering consultant, can get into more detail, if you choose.

970 Our engineer is determined that there are six potential frequency options that can work in Vancouver and two of these, 88.1 and 92.3, represent realistic licensing alternatives for CBC as an example.

971 Both offer the greatest potential in terms of meeting the technical requirements of Industry Canada and both feature signals that would provide coverage to most of the greater Vancouver area.

972 The remaining four frequencies are potential drop in frequencies. They can be used to meet the demand for frequencies by other interested parties who will present this week to you.

973 In short, there are potential frequencies for a new mainstream service, a CBC French-language service, an ethnic service, AVRN, and Simon Fraser University, as an example.

974 If you would like, I can call on John Mathews to expand on the technical reasons why those frequencies work, if you would care to.

975 MR. RHÉAUME: Just one additional question on that issue: would any of those frequencies be suitable to yourself, to your application?

976 MR. TEMPLETON: There are two other frequencies that could be used commercially. 94.5 is the big frequency. That's the full coverage frequency and where the greatest demand is from the audience thorough research.

977 But to answer your question, yes, there are two other frequencies that could be utilized.

978 MR. RHÉAUME: Now, hypothetically, Mr. Templeton, let's say the Commission says, "We are prepared to give you a licence, but not on 94.5". So your project can go ahead?

979 MR. TEMPLETON: Yes, it can.

980 MR. RHÉAUME: To what extent would another frequency, presumably with reduced coverage, affect your business plan? Would it affect your selected format and commitments attached to that format, and would it affect your CTD, your considerable CTD commitments?

981 MR. TEMPLETON: I would not affect our Canadian talent development. We would pledge every penny that we have pledged with 94.5.

982 I think the other part of the question was: would it affect our business plan? We always take a cautious, conservative approach in our projections, you know, the under promise, over deliver. This is such a lucrative market, we believe that our business plan can be achieved on both.

983 The reason we applied for 94.5 is that where the greatest demand was for a new service. It's not just the greater area, it's outlining areas as well. So that's why we applied for that.

984 I answered two of those three parts. There was one other part I'm not sure --

985 MR. RHÉAUME: Your format -- we will be getting to this in a minute. It would not affect your format and commitments attached to this format.

986 MR. TEMPLETON: I'm sorry, I couldn't quite hear.

987 MR. RHÉAUME: I would not affect -- a different frequency, a different business plan, would not affect your format and the commitments attached to this format.

988 MR. TEMPLETON: No. We would commit to smooth jazz.

989 MR. RHÉAUME: So your application as filed would work on another frequency. That's your answer, right?

990 MR. TEMPLETON: It would work. This is a new format that it is going to take a while to educate the audience, so we wanted the greatest potential coverage area to attract the biggest foundation we could build.

991 When you say: will it affect? Yes, it will affect, but we think we have allowed enough contingencies and conservatism in our numbers so that we can achieve a business plan and we will honour all of our Canadian talent development initiatives and we will be a smooth jazz radio station. You have our word on that.

992 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you.

993 Just a little housekeeping now to finish things off.

994 Conditions of licence, I believe you have agreed to 49.9 per cent hits as a condition of licence.

995 MR. TEMPLETON: Yes.

996 MR. RHÉAUME: And then as a specialty format, you would be 60 per cent Category 3 as a condition of licence.

997 MR. TEMPLETON: Yes.

998 MR. RHÉAUME: And 20 per cent of the Category 3 selections would be Canadian.

999 MR. TEMPLETON: Correct.

1000 MR. RHÉAUME: Category 2 music, the regulations cover this. Now how about -- you discussed briefly with Commissioner Cram, the reasonable distribution and you said the Canadian content in Category 3 is going to be reasonable distribution throughout the broadcast day.

1001 How would you react to a condition of licence which would have your 20 per cent of Category 3 being Canadian selections from 6:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m., Monday to Friday?

1002 MR. TEMPLETON: We would accept that.

1003 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you.

1004 A final question -- actually it's just the FACTOR letter that you referred to earlier. Would you provide this to the Commission?

1005 MR. TEMPLETON: Yes, I have it with me. Do you want me to turn it in to you as we leave?

1006 MR. RHÉAUME: Yes, sure. And then your engineering studies.

1007 MR. TEMPLETON: Yes, we will be more than happy to submit that to you as well.

1008 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you.

1009 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, very much.

1010 MR. TEMPLETON: Thank you, Madam Chair, Commissioners.

--- Pause / Pause

1011 THE CHAIRPERSON: Ready?

1012 MS VOGEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

1013 Next on our agenda is an application by Standard Radio Inc. for a broadcasting licence to carry on an English-language FM radio programming undertaking at Vancouver.

1014 The new station would operate on a frequency of 94.5 MHz with an effective radiated power of 46,000 watts.

1015 The applicant is proposing a smooth jazz specialty format with at least 80 per cent of the music drawn from subcategory 34 which is jazz and blues.

1016 Please proceed whenever you are ready.

APPLICATION / APPLICATION

1017 MR. SLAIGHT: Good afternoon, and sorry for the confusion here as we got ourselves organized.

1018 Good after, Madam Chair and members of the Commission.

1019 I'm Gary Slaight, President and CEO of Standard Radio. Before I introduce our team, and in context, Commissioner Cram was at the Calgary hearing where I reintroduced a tradition from our family which was to read my horoscope. My father did it for years at the hearings, and against legal advice, once again, in the honour of tradition, I will read my horoscope for today, good or bad.

1020 This is from the Globe and Mail:

"You are going to have to work more closely with friends and colleagues over the next few weeks and it will be a few weeks, and the sooner you recognize and accept that fact, the better. You may be the most invidualistic member of the zodiac, but you can work with others if you try. So try".

1021 So for my group here, and we have been working hard at this, we are going to give it a try today.

1022 Now I will introduce the panel. On my far right is Kevin Cassidy. Kevin is Vice-President, Music Strategy and Implementation, Broadcast Architecture, a media research firm which has been closely associated with the introduction and growth of smooth jazz in the United States.

1023 On my near right is Gary Russell. Gary is the General Manager of our two stations in Vancouver. He has 34 years of experience in Canadian radio and more than 15 years of experience in the Vancouver market.

1024 On my immediate left is Eric Samuels, Program Director of our two Vancouver radio stations. Eric's extensive radio experience includes the hosting and programming of a jazz radio show for more than 10 years.

1025 On my far left is Victoria Nelson who will be the Sales Manager of our new station, should it be licensed by the Commission. Victoria's family has a rich history in western Canadian radio. In 1922, her grandfather, A.A. Murphy was founder and owner of Saskatoon's first radio station, CFQC. Her father, Blair Nelson, joined CFQC as Sales Manager in 1945. When CFQC TV went on the air in 1954, he was appointed Managing Director, later becoming President.

1026 Both her grandfather and father have been inducted into the CAB Hall of Fame. Victoria has lived in Vancouver for 20 years, 14 of which has been spent in sales with our stations here.

1027 In the row behind you, on your left, is Carol Welsman. Carol is a well-known Canadian jazz artist who will be on the Advisory Board for the new station. She is currently signed to a U.S. record label which will release her new smooth jazz CD in Canada next March. Her first three CDs have all been nominated for Juno Awards.

1028 Next to Carol is Bill King. Bill is one of Canada's finest jazz pianists who has played with the likes of Linda Ronstadt and John Klemmer and was Music Director for the Pointer Sisters. He is the publisher of Canada's premier jazz publication, The Jazz Report. A copy of the current issue is included with the notes for our oral presentation. If you happen to listen to the Inflight music channels on your flight into Vancouver, Bill programs and hosts the jazz channel. If Standard Radio is granted a new Vancouver licence, Bill King will be our Canadian music correspondent in Toronto.

1029 Next to him is Peter Grant, our regulatory counsel from McCarthy Tétrault. Next to Peter is Gordon Elder, our technical consultant from Elder Engineering Inc. Next to Gord is Ian Lurie, CFO of Standard Radio.

1030 So that is our team.

1031 We are here to apply for a new FM radio station in Vancouver to be called 94.5, The Wave, which will provide a currently unserved segment of the Vancouver population with an exciting, new diverse radio service. the musical content of The Wave will be primarily smooth jazz.

1032 The jazz format has a peculiar --a particular meaning for my family. Many people may not be -- it is peculiar, as well.

--- Laughter / Rires

1033 Many people may not be aware that my father, Allan Slaight, who owns Standard Broadcasting, started his radio career in Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan, in 1948, as the DJ for a jazz show called Spins and Needles. Allan has never lost his love for the jazz format and for Canadian jazz artists.

1034 Standard Radio currently operates 12 radio stations in major urban markets across the country, including two stations here in Vancouver. Standard Radio is proud of its distinguished history of public and community service. We believe that in our application we bring a level of programming strength, broadcast experience, local knowledge and commitment to Canadian talent development that is unmatched.

1035 Smooth jazz is a radio format that is relatively new to Canadian broadcasting and we know that it will succeed in Vancouver. We believe we are the group to bring it here.

1036 To begin our presentation, I would like to introduce Gary Russell, our General manager in Vancouver.

1037 MR. RUSSELL: Thank you, Gary.

1038 The Commission has been presented with 11 applications for the 94.5 FM frequency here in Vancouver. Six of those applicants, including Standard Radio, propose a form of smooth jazz for Vancouver.

1039 It is not a coincidence that a majority of the applicants have identified smooth jazz as the missing piece in the Vancouver radio mosaic.

1040 There are currently 12 commercial radio stations that cover all the mainstream formats in Vancouver. Two of the 12 are operated by Standard Radio. CKZZ, better known as Z-95, is a contemporary music station, with an emphasis on urban and dance music, and CISL is our AM oldies station.

1041 As we examine the Vancouver commercial radio market, there is one musical format, smooth jazz, which has absolutely no representation. It is one of the fastest growing radio formats in the United States and apart from Hamilton is nonexistent in Canada.

1042 Vancouver is the perfect market for smooth jazz. It is home to one of Canada's most vibrant jazz communities.

1043 The recent 15th annual Vancouver International Jazz Festival was attended by more than 400,000 people and showcased more than 1,200 Canadian jazz performers, of which more than 1,100 were from British Columbia.

1044 Vancouver has more than 15 different jazz venues, such as The Cellar and Capones that feature jazz on a regular basis. There are a number of larger venues such a the Queen Elizabeth Theatre and Orpheum, which play host to some of the world's premier jazz performers, including Holly Cole, Wynton Marsalis and Diana Krall.

1045 The jazz community of Canada is one of the last remaining musical cultures not represented in Vancouver commercial radio.

1046 Our research reveals that Vancouver will embrace our proposed radio station, with an initial projected 4.1 share of tuning in the 12-plus demographic, increasing to a 7.1 share by the end of the seven-year licence term.

1047 Within the station's target demographic, 25 to 54 year olds, we project an audience share rising from an initial 5.5 share to a 10 share over the seven year licence term.

1048 This is a remarkable level of interest for a specialty format and demonstrates that smooth jazz will be a success in Vancouver.

1049 MR. SLAIGHT: Let me turn now to Kevin Cassidy.

1050 MR. CASSIDY: Thank you, Gary.

1051 Broadcast Architecture carried out an extensive survey here in Vancouver last spring. The results of that survey, which are included in the application, show that there would be significant support in Vancouver for a station combining contemporary and traditional smooth jazz.

1052 To put those results into perspective, let me tell you a little bit about smooth jazz as it has evolved in the United States. The format originated in Los Angeles in 1986 with radio station KTWV - The Wave. Since then, the format has been refined and developed and through the 1990s has been launched in markets across the United States.

1053 My firm, Broadcast Architecture, has been involved in developing the format and in launching most of those radio stations. In fact, our firm originated the name "smooth jazz" for the format based on interviews we conducted with listeners in 1989.

1054 The format has become very successful. In major markets where there are smooth jazz stations, those stations do very well indeed. The trade magazines now chart the format and the number of artists that are released in this format has grown exponentially.

1055 One of the most interesting aspects of the success of smooth jazz in the U.S. is the number of Canadian jazz artists who are now receiving airplay on stations in the States. Yet these internationally recognized performers, people like Warren Hill, Diana Krall, Brian Hughes, and others, receive virtually no airplay in Canada, including Vancouver.

1056 Our firm has developed a network of some 25 smooth jazz stations across the United States and these stations are constantly comparing notes on new smooth jazz artists. If a new station is launched in this format in Vancouver, we would follow with great interest the success of Canadian artists introduced to the airwaves here, with a view to recommending them for airplay on the U.S. stations that are in our Smooth Jazz Network.

1057 MR. SLAIGHT: Thank you, Kevin.

1058 If we are granted a licence, the Sales Manager for the new station will be Victoria Nelson.

1059 MS NELSON: Thank you, Gary.

1060 I'm thrilled to be appearing before you today.

1061 I have been in radio sales and marketing in the Vancouver market for 14 years. Based on my experience, I'm confident that the sales projections which have been outlined for our proposed smooth jazz station are both realistic and achievable.

1062 The response from the advertising community has been very positive. As John Capozzi, the Associate Broadcast Manager for Media Buying Services, Canada's largest radio buyer, has noted:

"This licence [in Vancouver] would have no problem finding advertisers and thus revenue."

1063 One of the events with which I have been actively involved is the Vancouver International Jazz festival. Our station Z-95 has been an official radio sponsor for the jazz festival for a number of years, even though Z-95 does not play jazz music.

1064 With the addition of a station devoted to smooth jazz, we will be able to support the festival not only through sponsorship but by programming the music the fans want to hear. And advertisers who want to reach those fans directly will have a radio station to achieve their goal.

1065 MR. SLAIGHT: Thank you, Victoria.

1066 One of the keys to our success will be the unique programming on The Wave, including our commitment to Canadian music. I would like to turn to our Vancouver Program Director, Eric Samuels, to elaborate on our plans.

1067 MR. SAMUELS: Thank you, Gary.

1068 In laying the groundwork for our proposed smooth jazz station, we have studied the Vancouver market. We have undertaken extensive research of potential listeners. We have spoken with broadcasters who have achieved success with this format in the United States. We have spent considerable time meeting with dozens of members of the jazz community in forums where their feedback formed the foundation for many aspects of our plan.

1069 We have done our homework. And that time and effort enables us to commit with absolute confidence to a smooth jazz radio station that will succeed in Vancouver. The station will cater to a significant and currently unserved audience. But in addition, a number of innovative specialty programs and features will widen the scope of the station beyond smooth jazz, by introducing more traditional jazz in a manner that bridges the gap between styles, offering listeners the opportunity to become exposed to the rich history and wide scope of the music.

1070 Our commitment to jazz is complete. At least 80 per cent of The Wave's music will come from subcategory 34, jazz and blues. In addition, recognizing that as a specialty radio licence, a Canadian content level of 10 per cent would have been possible, we have committed to a minimum of 35 per cent Canadian content, the highest of any jazz applicant before you.

1071 We accept both of these levels, with confidence, as conditions of licence.

1072 MR. SLAIGHT: Thank you, Eric.

1073 Meeting a Canadian content level of 35 per cent in this specialty format will be a challenge. But we will meet the challenge with the knowledge that Canada has an extraordinary wealth of virtually untapped jazz talent, waiting to be heard by more people.

1074 To expand on this issue, it gives me great pleasure to introduce a noted Canadian smooth jazz performer, Carol Welsman.

1075 MS WELSMAN: Thanks, Gary.

1076 As a performer, I can tell you that until now, Canadian jazz has received little, if any, exposure on commercial Canadian Radio.

1077 With the recent start of a new smooth jazz station in the Hamilton/Burlington market, however, the prospect for Canadian jazz performers has already improved. My CDs, and those by other Canadian jazz artists, are receiving regular and unprecedented airplay on The Wave 94.7 in Hamilton. EMI Records has just released a compilation CD and I feel very fortunate to be a part of this and my original song is number one on the CD. This is featuring performers that are being played on the new station

1078 After a period of only three months, this new exposure has made a difference in the Hamilton region. I have seen a substantial increase in my CD sales, as well as heightened public awareness.

1079 With Standard Radio's proposal to work with the new smooth jazz station in Hamilton, Canadian jazz artists from both eastern and western Canada will undoubtedly benefit from this.

1080 As a long time personal friend of both Gary and Allan Slaight, I'm fortunate to have witnessed their integrity in broadcasting and their will to break new ground in the industry. I feel that their strong commitment to develop Canadian talent through The Wave will benefit all Canadian jazz artists.

1081 MR. SLAIGHT: Thank you, Carol.

1082 I would like next to introduce Bill King.

1083 MR. KING: Thank you, Gary.

1084 I have been a long time supporter and activist for the Canadian jazz community, and I'm honoured to have been invited to be with the Standard group today.

1085 I will also be intervening later in the hearing in my role as publisher of The Jazz Report Magazine.

1086 The one thing I wanted to address today is the question of supply. How much Canadian smooth jazz music is available?

1087 I think that best indicator is the number of new CDs in the jazz format which are submitted for consideration by the Juno Awards.

1088 For a number of years now, over 100 new jazz CDs have been submitted annually by Canadian artists. Last year, the number was over 120. That understates the number that are released in Canada, since not all CDs are sent to the Juno Awards committee for consideration.

1089 Given these numbers, there is no doubt that there is more than enough supply to enable a smooth jazz station to meet a 35 per cent Cancon level.

1090 And there is more than just quantity. There is quality.

1091 To give you an idea of the quality and diversity of Canadian jazz artists to be played on the new station, Gary asked me to assemble on a single CD examples of the music that the station will feature. The compilation is called "The Canadian Jazz Scene: Just Waiting to Happen" and a copy of the CD is included with the notes for the oral presentation. The disc shows the incredible talent and diversity of 21 different Canadian artists in this genre. Six of those artists are from here in the Vancouver community.

1092 MR. SLAIGHT: That leads me logically to the next topic, our proposed Canadian talent development commitments.

1093 Bill and Carol are just going to move elsewhere for a moment, so pardon us.

1094 We did not develop these commitments without a great deal of consultation with the jazz community to come up with Canadian talent development initiatives which support the music community both locally and nationally.

1095 We also consulted with Doug Kirk to ensure that we can work together with his new station in Hamilton/Burlington. An example of these synergies is Mr. Kirk's commitment to run our live concert series on his station.

1096 But before I outline our benefit package in detail, we would like to break somewhat with tradition to provide you with a first-hand taste of what some of the music we are proposing for The Wave will sound like.

1097 Bill King and Carol Welsman have performed together a number of times and have agreed to a special live performance today.

--- Jazz presentation / Présentation de jazz

1098 MR. SLAIGHT: It was interesting to hear that Carol rehearsed this morning at 7:00 a.m. It still sounded great then, and she is not played on the radio in Canada.

1099 Now let me turn to the specifics of our Canadian talent development proposals. As part of our application, we have developed a number of initiatives over the seven year licence term, which total $8.75 million.

1100 These initiatives support Canadian jazz at virtually every level. From post-secondary education, to local live performance, national exposure and touring support, and ultimately international opportunity.

1101 Our initiatives are listed on the easels in front of you.

1102 To you left, the key area of support, with expenditures of over $5.5 million, will be on what we call our "Canadian Jazz Star Program". This program, made up of 11 different initiatives, is intended to build a star system for Canadian jazz artists, and give our rising stars a real opportunity for local and national exposure.

1103 We start with a contribution of $1.4 million to FACTOR, which will be directed solely to Canadian jazz artists.

1104 Next, there is $700,00 for a live concert series that will provide a unique showcase for local and non-local Canadian jazz artists.

1105 Then we have $350,000 for the annual creation of a compilation CD of music performed by Canadian jazz artists. This will be distributed nationally by Canada's pre-eminent jazz record label, Justin Time Records.

1106 We have $1,050,000 for the creation of two CDs and a national concert tour initiative for two outstanding canadian jazz artists each year of the licence term. One of the two artists will be from British Columbia.

1107 As you will see on the second card to your right, we have also proposed several other cash benefits, as well as major non-cash benefits over the licence term, including our Jazz Spot Plan and our Community Access Program.

1108 The Jazz Spot Plan will promote and support new Canadian musical talent by scheduling free commercials daily to promote the CDs of jazz artists. The Community Access Program will allow community or charity groups to use The Wave's studio facilities to produce their own public service announcements, many of which we will run on the air.

1109 The total is $8.75 million. Fully $7 million of this represents cash benefits, and that is a firm number to be spent over seven years on qualifying Canadian talent initiatives.

1110 Before concluding, let me take a moment to thank the many intervenors for taking time to support our application. These letters came from musicians and across Canada, including Oliver Jones from Montreal, Guido Basso and Brian Hughes from Toronto, Senator Tommy Banks from Edmonton, and Lee Aaron and Kerry Galloway from Vancouver, who you will hear from next week.

1111 As well, we garnered support from many other segments of the music industry, including record labels, industry associations and local promoters.

1112 One of the intervenors was Daryl Jahnke, a local musician and a board member of the Pacific Music Industry Association. As he said in his letter

"To my knowledge [Standard Radio is] the only applicant to engage the Vancouver jazz community in any meaningful candid discussion... Their proposal includes diverse and well considered benefits for the local community which I believe could result in profoundly positive developments..."

1113 Let me conclude by summarizing the key points of our application.

1114 First, our financial commitments are significant and unequivocal, with some $8.75 million of support for Canadian talent development, $7 million of it by way of direct cash benefits.

1115 Second, we have committed to be true to this format, with at least 80 per cent of our music coming from Subcategory 34, the highest level of any applicant.

1116 And third, we have committed to a Canadian content level of 35 per cent, a level that will ensure that canadian jazz artists will be presented in all their diversity.

1117 That concludes our presentation, Madam Chair.

1118 We would be pleased to respond to your questions.

1119 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

1120 I will be asking the questions here.

1121 I have questions with respect to your business plan, including format, target audience, market and projected revenues, programming, Canadian talent development, financial analysis, and then some technical questions.

1122 So maybe I could start with your market study and findings that jazz will be popular in the Vancouver market. I must say I find it sort of surprising that it's like jazz has been discovered suddenly and here we are where we are talking about artists who can't get airplay. You are a big company with 12 stations and I wondering if you can give me any idea of why nobody has introduced jazz yet.

1123 MR. SLAIGHT: Other than in --

1124 THE CHAIRPERSON: Other than Hamilton.

1125 MR. SLAIGHT: I think it has to do with the fact that there haven't been a lot of new licences granted and there are situations where there are open frequencies in a lot of marketplaces and everybody in each market -- and I'm talking major markets here right now -- is comfortable in their format and doing well enough that altruism aside and love of jazz aside, there has been no need for somebody to change format in any marketplace at this point in time.

1126 So when you look at new licences, and I think you will see it in other markets as well, where there is a demand for jazz, it's an obvious format to look at in terms of filling a void and providing something that's currently not on the radio.

1127 THE CHAIRPERSON: So even though in some markets you have licensees competing in the same format or pretty close, their comfort level and profits are such that they are not going to move to a new format like this with an existing frequency.

1128 MR. SLAIGHT: And Vancouver is a good example with Corus taking over the two FM stations here and they are both rock stations and one of them wasn't doing well. It would have been a logical thing to consider to move into a jazz niche there. But the fact of the matter is then you have to blow up the radio station and recreated it and you have to spend the dollars in marketing and there is heritage involved with the existing stations. It's not something that people feel the need to do right now.

1129 But as new licences come along -- and also I believe that if this format is granted in Vancouver, and if it does well in Vancouver, then I think you will see stations in other markets looking at this format in terms of if somebody is not doing as well as they think they should be doing it's something to look at.

1130 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

1131 Your market study indicates there is a contemporary version of smooth jazz and a traditional version and the potential audience for each version is different. The contemporary could perform in the 5.5 to 6 share range, and traditional in 2.5 to 3. I wonder if you could explain the differences between the two versions.

1132 MR. SLAIGHT: Yes, I think I would have Kevin speak to that who did the research and who has experience with the format in the States, and then maybe Bill could talk a little bit about what is available in Canada.

1133 MR. CASSIDY: The model that we came up with for the contemporary smooth jazz format is based on artists that are currently receiving a lot of airplay and having success in the States with smooth jazz and as well as the more popular jazz artists that have a more contemporary sound.

1134 The traditional sound we have based on -- I did this work here with Eric in Vancouver -- artists that have been around and based their sound on a more traditional jazz style.

1135 So we really had a goal of trying to signify the difference between the two sounds.

1136 MR. SLAIGHT: Most of our music will be from the contemporary area, but we have indicated in our application -- and I could have Eric talk about some of the programming features -- that we feel it's important to pay tribute to the roots of jazz on this radio station, and particularly with the Canadian situation, we feel that in terms of the music we will play of Canadian jazz artists, we will play more traditional type of Canadian artists in order to fill the 35 per cent quota.

1137 There isn't 35 per cent of pure smooth jazz music in Canada right now even though there is a lot of it.

1138 So Eric, do you want to talk a little bit about the difference in terms of the programming?

1139 MR. SAMUELS: There are a number of programming initiatives that I referred to earlier which create a hybrid between the two styles, that would be the more traditional styles and the contemporary smooth jazz.

1140 We have created a number of different features, short form and longer form programming which will take advantage of the wide birth of the music. In terms of the sort form, a couple of features which we have outlined include New Jazz North, which will be a feature that will run several times throughout the day, each day, highlighting new releases by Canadian jazz artists, a little bit of biographical information, information about the CD as well as a sample track from the CD will be included in that feature.

1141 World Class Classics is a good example of the kind of hybrid and recognition of the rich history of the music as it pays tribute to the many great Canadian jazz performers, past and present, people like Oscar Peterson, Maynard Ferguson, Moe Kaufman, Diana Krall who have achieved success not only in Canada, but internationally as well. That's a feature that will air throughout the day rotating several times a day.

1142 Then on the weekend a number of features which we are very excited about, Jazz, A to Z, actually a show I brought back from years ago when I did it in Ontario at a couple of different radio stations.

1143 The concept here would be to introduce listeners to more traditional forms of jazz through the doorway of modern contemporary smooth jazz. Those who are fascinated and interested will find it a very easy way to become involved with that kind of music.

1144 Shows as well, including The Jazz Report with Bill King; on Sunday, Vancouver Jazz Live, which would be hosted by organizers from the Vancouver International Jazz Festival: and probably our most exciting program would be our Live Jazz series on Saturday night, which I'm sure Gary will talk about in more detail, again which will introduce both smooth jazz contemporary artists and some more traditional performers as well.

1145 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

1146 Vancouver is a large -- we have heard a lot about multicultural, multiracial, diverse community. Did your market study indicate how this proposed station would fare across that mosaic?

1147 MR. SLAIGHT: I will have Kevin talk about a little bit based on his experience in the U.S., but we see it as a multicultural format to begin with. It crosses all barriers. It's not like rock and roll which is basically targeted towards white people. Kevin's experience in the United States is --

1148 Maybe you could talk about San Francisco, which would be a comparable market.

1149 MR. CASSIDY: Absolutely. I mean, we work with a lot of different smooth jazz stations across the United States and every market tends to be very different. The one thing that seems to be universal is, you never know until you actually get in and find out what the local people want. The ethnic make-up can make a huge difference in how the station will sound.

1150 It is not an indicator on the success or the format. If you go just south of the border here to Seattle, there is a smooth jazz station. Seattle has a very similar market composition to Vancouver and the smooth jazz station is performing very well.

1151 Or San Francisco, if you go a little further down the coast, performs very well and is very universal in the make-up of the audience. It is coming from -- it is clearly multicultural.

1152 THE CHAIRPERSON: You certainly would know this better than I, but as I understand it the roots of jazz are in the African American. I mean, it is kind of an indigenous American music form. Certainly I don't know how large the black population is in Seattle and San Francisco, it would be less than other parts of the United States, but it is certainly more than here. I wonder if you could talk a little bit about that. We have a very large Asian population here and I just wonder if you could talk about the appeal of this.

1153 Also, whether the format in the stations in Seattle, Portland, San Francisco are more traditional or contemporary and what affect that might have?

1154 MR. CASSIDY: When you look at Seattle or San Francisco, those markets may have slightly larger ethnic American population, but just in the case of San Francisco and the Summer Book Arbitron rating service, 15 per cent of the average quarter hours came from the African American contingent, which is probably a slightly higher index than the population, but overall it is relying from a lot of different ethnic components who are listening to the station.

1155 So again, it supports the multicultural background of the station.

1156 So if you isolate the African American, it probably does index a little higher than the population, but it does not by any means rely -- I mean, the format is working in Knoxville, Tennessee and other markets like that where it doesn't have the population to support it.

1157 THE CHAIRPERSON: But it is your experience that generally it has a higher appeal to multicultural audiences than a generally --

1158 MR. CASSIDY: It will index slightly higher than the overall population for that segment, but it requires -- I mean, it is multicultural. It has appeal across the board.

1159 So that's why when we are asked who do we go after, we say "People who like smooth jazz".

1160 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

1161 I guess the other question was, are they traditional or contemporary stations?

1162 MR. CASSIDY: Most of those stations will lean contemporary in their mix and they will use features that highlight the roots of jazz.

1163 THE CHAIRPERSON: Have you projected any -- some of the other applicants have identified what audience they expect to repatriate from some of the Seattle or U.S. stations. Have you any of those? Have you made any repatriation projections?

1164 MR. SLAIGHT: Again, I can have Kevin and Eric talk a little bit about it.

1165 I mean, I think most of the audience will come from a variety of Vancouver stations in reality. The research indicated that not a lot would come from outside of the marketplace.

1166 I believe, though, that there will be some people that will tune in this radio station in Vancouver who don't listen to the radio right now because there is no station for them to listen to. There is some tuning to the Seattle jazz station out of Vancouver, which was mentioned in a bunch of our interventions.

1167 Kevin, do you want to talk about the research and then, Eric, maybe you can talk about where we think the audience will come from.

1168 MR. CASSIDY: The research that we did showed that of the people who said that this format could be their favourite, about 18 per cent of those people said they were listening to radio stations that were outside of the standard/Standard lists of Vancouver area radio stations. So it could be a multitude of stations, it could be stations that aren't normally coded as Vancouver radio stations.

1169 The reality is that a lot of those would be in percentages that are very small, so it's hard to say, you know, .6 per cent is going to come from this particular one radio station from the United States. I won't try to make you think that.

1170 It would be a number that we believe will be somewhere in the 3 per cent range, in that range, and the majority would come from people who are currently listening to other Vancouver stations or not listening to the radio.

1171 MR. SLAIGHT: Do you want to --

1172 MR. SAMUELS: Sure. As far as local tuning goes, we anticipate in the 25 to 54 year old demographic that the station will take approximately 20 per cent from CHQM; 13 per cent from KISS-FM; 9 per cent from Z-95; CFMI 9 per cent and CKNW 7 per cent.

1173 I would also like to throw that while I can't quantitatively give you numbers on this, while we were out doing the forums that we discussing our plans for the station and getting feedback from the jazz community, it was remarkable how many people mentioned that they did listen to radio stations in Seattle, both the public broadcast station and the smooth jazz station there as well.

1174 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

1175 I don't know that the BBM numbers support that, but it's interesting that they are listening on --

1176 MR. SLAIGHT: There is a little bit of tuning in BBM that we have detected that goes to Seattle.

1177 THE CHAIRPERSON: Not much.

1178 MR. SLAIGHT: No, not a lot.

1179 THE CHAIRPERSON: Now, with respect to your advertising revenue projections, according to your market study based on the audience impacts, the potential revenue loss among existing stations would be shared widely and none of the listed stations impacted significantly.

1180 In response to a deficiency you indicated that over $800,000 of your first year revenue would come from new, previously untapped sources. I'm wondering if you could explain what those might be and how this format might help you track new revenues?

1181 MR. SLAIGHT: Sure. Maybe you could handle that.

1182 MS NELS0N: Basically we outlined four major areas. One of those areas would be jazz clubs. There are 15 or more jazz clubs, plus larger venues in the market that would need to promote the acts, these jazz acts that would be coming to town and coming to the city, and by having these venues now and having this new jazz licence, it is now a place for them to advertise these new jazz acts.

1183 Another one would be touring jazz artists. Now that Vancouver is, and always has been, on the jazz circuit, having this new station would enable us to go out and get new revenue from the new touring jazz artists, because they now have a home to advertise as well.

1184 Thirdly, the record companies with CDs that are being released, now they have a place to advertise those CD releases, as well as CD compilations. You will find, as with Carol, there is a new CD compilation that now has a venue to advertise.

1185 Finally, our plan is to hire six new sales reps. By having these new sales reps on the road they will definitely be able to uncover new revenues.

1186 MR. SLAIGHT: Plus, Victoria is going to be a great sales manager. That accounts for some of it.

1187 THE CHAIRPERSON: Now I have some programming questions.

1188 With local programming -- and I'm interested here on the specifics with this station, but also you operate two stations in the Vancouver market now, two very successful stations, and I'm wondering how much of the programming on those two existing stations, the AM and the FM, is locally originated programming?

1189 MR. SLAIGHT: It is all locally, I believe -- do we run any syndication on Z-95, Eric?

1190 MR. SAMUELS: We do. During the weekend we have a countdown show on Sunday for two hours which is a national show, as well as specials from time to time which are produced across Canada.

1191 THE CHAIRPERSON: And on the AM?

1192 MR. SAMUELS: There is a gardening show which is based out of Toronto which is national, an open-line show. And there are some short-form features, but that would be the extent.

1193 THE CHAIRPERSON: That would be it.

1194 MR. SAMUELS: As a group, our philosophy is live as much as possible, regardless to the marketplace. So Vancouver would be no exception to that.

1195 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

1196 With your spoken word programming, can you tell me with news, what would be the approximately length of newscasts and would there be news programs on the weekends and would it all be locally produced, the news?

1197 MR. SAMUELS: Our schedule for news would be an average of three minutes per newscast, 11 times weekdays. On the half hour in the morning from 6:00 through until 9:00 a.m. and then on the hour in the afternoons from 3:00 until 6:00 p.m. We don't perceive the need for news on the weekend at this time because of people's tendency and their schedules to be in the car and on the way to work and coming back wanting to be informed with traditional newscasts.

1198 MR. SLAIGHT: We also see Vancouver as being very well served in terms of news with CKNW and the Rogers all news station. This will be predominantly a music format with news at times where it is indicated by research that this audience will want to hear it.

1199 THE CHAIRPERSON: Is the news all locally produced?

1200 MR. SLAIGHT: Absolutely.

1201 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

1202 Now, with your music, I think we have -- as we went through with Commissioner Cram and NewCap, we don't deal with formats, we deal with categories, but I think I have a pretty good understanding that you are 80 per cent Category 3, 20 per cent Category 2, 35 per cent of each will be Canadian, and how will your -- so my only question is: How will your Category 3 Canadian Content be distributed over the day? In other words, the drive and --

1203 MR. SLAIGHT: It will be evenly distributed throughout the day.

1204 THE CHAIRPERSON: Evenly distributed.

1205 MR. SLAIGHT: Yes.

1206 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

1207 Canadian Talent Development.

1208 MR. SLAIGHT: I figured we might spend some time on that.

1209 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Break time, my colleagues said.

--- Laughter / Rires

1210 THE CHAIRPERSON: Fifteen minutes

1211 MR. SLAIGHT: Thank you.

--- Upon recessing at 1537 / Suspension à 1537

--- Upon resuming at 1539 / Reprise à 1539

1212 THE CHAIRPERSON: We will continue.

1213 Now, I have quite a few questions on your Canadian Talent Development proposal. I will start with: Developing Canadian jazz stars, your live concert series.

1214 I'm wondering if any of your other standard/Standard stations in B.C. have similar contests for the music in the respective formats?

1215 MR. SLAIGHT: We can talk about Z-95's support of local talent and I can talk -- you know, before Eric talks about that -- about Standard Radio as a group in terms of some of the initiatives that we have been doing for a number of years.

1216 We do a national songwriting contest annually, which is done in every market across Canada that we are in, plus some other markets which we don't operate in. It is for songwriters. It is to encourage songwriters in their craft.

1217 So do we do contests like this? Yes, we have done them. I personally have been involved in many of them over the years in broadcasting, in my long career.

1218 So in terms of Vancouver, I don't think we do necessarily something exactly as we are talking about here.

1219 MR. SAMUELS: We have done a number of initiatives over the years in Vancouver featuring Canadian talent and live events, but nothing so tightly scheduled as to say ever second week or 16 events per year. They have been more specific concert events or charity events where we tie in Canadian talent.

1220 MR. SLAIGHT: We also, through our syndication division, which is called Sound Source, we do live concerts on a regular basis featuring Canadian artists, which again run across the country.

1221 THE CHAIRPERSON: Maybe this is a good time for me to then slightly depart from sort of some of these specific questions.

1222 When I was looking over the various proposals, and yours in particular, one of the questions that came to mind is: What kind of community and music activities do your existing stations support in the Vancouver community. What I'm really trying to determine is, how many of those are done as a part of doing business for you, to build your audience, to resonate with your audience, and how many would be classified as Canadian talent development?

1223 MR. SLAIGHT: Well, if you look across the country and if you talk to Canadian artists or people in the music industry, Standard is known as a company that supports Canadian talent, always has been. You know, Bill could attest to that from over the years, Carol would attest to that. So we do different things in each of our markets to support local talent.

1224 Most of our stations are rock stations so we would have rock artists on the air all the time when they have a new album. We do the live concerts. We do the national songwriting contest. So we do a whole bunch of things across the country that are not part of our mandate, but we do because we believe in supporting Canadian talent.

1225 THE CHAIRPERSON: Maybe what we could do, to make it easier for me to stay focused, is talk about Vancouver, then. What would the dollar value of some of these activities be per year in Vancouver?

1226 Maybe I could put it a little differently. Some of it is in-kind, obviously, when it is promoting on the station. What are the dollar expenditures you make in the community with concerts or some of those activities?

1227 MR. SLAIGHT: I can have Gary and Eric talk about that, but the AM station is an oldies station so there is not a whole lot you can do with that in terms of Canadian talent. You just play the old music and kind of try to get buy.

1228 In terms of "Z" and its support for Canadian talent, new Canadian talent, again Eric maybe can talk a little bit about that.

1229 MR. SAMUELS: Well, you are right, there are a number of different initiatives not just the expenditure of dollars and some of those do fall in naturally with the radio station's role in its own community as it develops being a part of the community it serves.

1230 We have had a number of instances where -- Z-95, as an example, has started to airplay artists who are not receiving airplay elsewhere at the local level. No dollar commitment there, but they have gone from feature programming into regular rotation and have launched from that into gaining a national record deal, as an example. We do feel that is part of the responsibility of a radio station in its own community.

1231 Then there are significant cash commitments. That will take on different forms. A live concert series on Z-95.3, again, over the years has involved doing shows at Whistler where any number of acts, up to five or six acts would perform in an event.

1232 Recently we did a very unique event at Roots Lodge on Vancouver Island where we had three different west coast artists perform for a group of listeners. It was then recorded and broadcast nationally by Sound Source across Canada. It is called "Live from the Left Coast". We call that program "Camp Z", it was the inaugural year for that promotion that we are very proud of.

1233 Canadian talent has been promoted and supported at some other events. I mentioned charities earlier.

1234 We also initiated a program in Vancouver called "Cupid's Ball". It struck us that around Valentine's Day there are those without valentines, so we thought we would put an event together for those who are not with a significant other.

1235 MR. SLAIGHT: That would include you probably.

1236 MR. SAMUELS: No comment at this time.

--- Laughter / Rires

1237 MR. SAMUELS: And have Canadian talent perform.

1238 We have had a number of up and coming Canadian artists such as Soul Decision who have gone to actually international success, top 20 in the U.S. subsequent to their being featured here, and they were one of the performers who helped us out with that program.

1239 THE CHAIRPERSON: Would those expenditures fall under your sales and promotion expenditures in your financial summaries that you filed with us?

1240 MR. RUSSELL: Most of the programs and projects that Eric has alluded to would fall under the Canadian talent development initiatives that we have from the purchase of the two radio stations four and-a-half years ago. The concert series The Roots Lodge, those all -- they are not regular expenditures. Although we extend -- it does a lot of, you know, promoting of Canadian talent, those specific things are Canadian talent development expenditures and initiatives.

1241 THE CHAIRPERSON: So, then, to the extent that you have been operating in this market for not too many years, most of the activities you are engaged in are part of the commitments made at the time of that purchase?

1242 MR. SLAIGHT: Most of the cash expenditures would be from the substantial amount of -- from that amount, yes.

1243 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

1244 So back to sort of where I diverted myself, with respect to these live concert series, would any of these activities that you are doing with your existing FM Z-95, would they be done in conjunction with or combination with the new station?

1245 MR. SLAIGHT: I don't think -- musically, no, because the music will be totally different. There would be virtually no duplication in terms of the music.

1246 I think where we would see some co-operation is terms of community support for charities, where we do -- again, if you have a look through the interventions filed for our application, there are all sorts of community groups who have filed on our behalf because of the work we do currently with our existing radio stations since we took over the two radio stations.

1247 THE CHAIRPERSON: Now, your compilation CD project, can you provide some details about how it will be run? Will the overall winners be able to compete in subsequent annual contests? If you are unhappy with the quality of the contestants in one year would the CD projects in turn be cancelled, that kind of thing?

1248 MR. SLAIGHT: Well, maybe what I could do here is just take you through the process a little bit, because three of them are tied to together -- or two of them definitely are tied together. Actually, the first three.

1249 The live concert series is the 26 live concerts from rotating clubs in Vancouver. We are spending about $4,000 per show. Two of those -- $2,000 will go to the artist and $2,000 will go to pay for the recording studio and the broadcast.

1250 From those 26 live concerts, we will pick -- and we will have a panel of judges. We will have our advisory board work on this with us. We will pick 10 and we will take those 10 tracks and we will release a compilation CD which will be released by Justin Time Records across the country.

1251 From that 10 we will select two. Those two artists we will take into the studio and we will record a full CD from scratch. We have a great producer in Vancouver named Rick Kilburn who will work with us on the Vancouver area artists and, depending on where the other winner is from, we will find a studio and a producer to work with them.

1252 We will also co-ordinate a national tour for these two artists.

1253 So it starts from the club date and hopefully it ends up each year with two artists who have a finished CD, a national tour. This is what we believe is necessary to stimulate the star system in Canada for the jazz industry that is kind of waiting to happen.

1254 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

1255 Will you agree to keep separate detailed financial records for each of those three initiatives?

1256 MR. SLAIGHT: Absolutely.

1257 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

1258 Now, sponsorship of the Vancouver Jazz Festival. Again, wouldn't this be something that a jazz station would do as a part of wanting, again, to build and develop an audience in this market, given the success of the Jazz Festival?

1259 MR. SLAIGHT: First of all, we have been involved with the Jazz Festival in Vancouver promotionally. I have been involved in the Toronto -- in The Beaches Jazz Festival as a sponsor, even though we don't play jazz in Toronto.

1260 The purpose of the monies -- first of all, duMaurier is cutting back in terms of the sponsorship and the jazz festivals across the country are in trouble in terms of funding dollars right now.

1261 So in our meetings with Robert Kerr way back when, before we filed our application, we determined that all of the money would go directly to the artists. The purpose of that is to stimulate and to encourage him to bring more Canadian artists into the festival.

1262 So there is no doubt, the money is not going to cover his bottom line, it is going to go -- and his is going to have to file with us verification that this is happening.

1263 Would we spend $125,000 a year annually on a jazz station to support a jazz festival if we weren't applying for a licence in a competitive hearing? Probably not. But we would support the heck out of it. We would promote it, we would interview the artists, we would feature the artists, we would broadcast live from the show, but I think the $125,000 will be money well spent in terms of our whole plan in terms of Canadian jazz artists.

1264 THE CHAIRPERSON: So it is not something you would do if you were not applying for a licence?

1265 MR. SLAIGHT: No, we probably wouldn't. We would do what we do now, which is support the festival through our two radio stations, give them promotional support. But would we spend money supporting? No, because we are not currently in the jazz format in Vancouver.

1266 THE CHAIRPERSON: I see. If you had a jazz -- oh, I see. Okay.

1267 I guess my point is that when I look at your financial projections and the average revenues of an FM, profits of an average FM in this market, it is a very lucrative market and a very profitable market. So it would just seem to me that this amount of money is not so significant. In terms of being a good corporate citizen and doing the things that one would do, if you had this station, it would seem to me to be a sensible business decision, I guess.

1268 MR. SLAIGHT: Yes, I don't disagree with you. I think individually it is not a lot of money, but when you put it together with the whole package I think the package is substantial. I think given the value of a licence in Vancouver we felt that this was kind of the least we could do in terms of our promises in terms of Canadian talent.

1269 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Thank you.

1270 Now, New Media.

1271 I guess the first thing I would like to talk about is the Internet streaming. I would like to know if any of your stations currently have streaming on the Internet?

1272 MR. SLAIGHT: Yes, they do.

1273 THE CHAIRPERSON: They do. Would they provide links?

1274 MR. SLAIGHT: Pardon me?

1275 THE CHAIRPERSON: Would they provide links, the other stations?

1276 MR. SLAIGHT: No.

1277 THE CHAIRPERSON: You wouldn't be linked?k

1278 MR. SLAIGHT: No.

1279 THE CHAIRPERSON: How did you arrive at an annual cost of $50,000?

1280 MR. SLAIGHT: That is about what it costs to set up streaming at a radio station in Canada. It is about $4,000 a month.

1281 THE CHAIRPERSON: So given that you are doing it on some of your other stations and other licensees do it and consider it to be sort of cost of promotion and cost of doing business, why is this situation different and why should we consider this as --

1282 MR. SLAIGHT: Well, as a start-up radio station would we spend $50,000 to stream the radio station at the beginning when at the end of the day it really doesn't give you any audience and it doesn't bring in any revenue?

1283 The reason we are streaming our other radio stations currently is probably largely, in part, because we bought a piece of an Internet streaming company called Global Media, which is based in Vancouver, and part of our deal with them was that we got our streaming for nothing.

1284 This is a new situation and it is not part of that particular deal.

1285 The benefit of streaming this radio station -- and again I emphasize that it will not get us any substantial extra audience or revenue -- is in that there is no jazz in most markets in Canada -- and we are going to link to Bill King's Web site and to the vancouverjazz.com -- there is a lot of potential audience out there for these Canadian artists that we are going to play on this radio station that aren't being heard in other markets in Canada. Also, it will take them to the rest of the world.

1286 THE CHAIRPERSON: I think the context in which I'm really exploring all of these is that we have a number of applicants here competing for this licence and many proposing the same format and, as I think you and everyone knows, this is a very lucrative market and the revenues generated by the FM stations and the profits generated are generally very high. Everybody seems to feel that this is a format for which there is a lot of audience, everybody is projecting, you know -- we could talk about your revenue projections, but certainly are expected to be profitable between, I think year 4 and 5 for most of them. So it is really important to look at all of these CTD commitments and take a look at whether or not they -- you know, if we are looking at CTD as being a criteria against which we are going to measure the various applications is to really identify what are activities that might be part of doing business and maybe not considered part of CTD.

1287 So would you then not stream your station over the Internet if we didn't approve this as CTD?

1288 MR. SLAIGHT: Not necessarily at the beginning. You know, it may not be a priority at the start of the radio station. We would be more focused on launching the radio station in the marketplace and not worrying about what goes with trying to get streaming up and a Web site going, et cetera.

1289 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

1290 Now, with respect to the funding for the Vancouver Jazz Web site and the Canadian Jazz Report Web site, if either of these entities were to cease operations during the licence term, what steps would you take to ensure that the Web page remains viable?

1291 MR. SLAIGHT: Okay. If either vancouverjazz.com or jazzpromo.com were to cease?

1292 THE CHAIRPERSON: Jazzvancouver.com, I think it is the Canadian Jazz Report Web site.

1293 MR. SLAIGHT: Right. Well, I think vancouverjazz.com --

1294 THE CHAIRPERSON: Vancouverjazz.com, yes.

1295 MR. SLAIGHT: -- I think if we don't come up -- if we don't fund him, he may cease to exist because he is having financial problems. We would either use that to creating something ourselves, or use the money in one of our other benefits, perhaps give it to FACTOR on top of our current --

1296 THE CHAIRPERSON: Now, the Designated Group Fund.

1297 You have proposed to contribute $50,000 a year over the licence term to an initiative called the "Designated Group Fund". We note that some will be used for scholarship, internship and mentorship programs to assist women, aboriginal peoples, disabled persons and visible minorities with their careers in music for radio broadcasting.

1298 Now, you know, again this is something that -- how does this differ from -- or why should we accept this as a benefit when coming into this market and these -- why wouldn't you be doing this as part of doing business if you really want to reflect your audience and have your employees be sort of representative of the audience?

1299 MR. SLAIGHT: Well, we do do that as a company and we do do that in every marketplace, but this is going to be money we are going to spend on a program that doesn't currently exist.

1300 We have become a sponsor. There is a group called The Centre for Aboriginal Media and who have started a festival in Toronto annually, an arts festival. We came in last year as a sponsor and created a bursary working in conjunction with the people at this association.

1301 The bursary will be used to bring aboriginal people from the Vancouver area into the festival in Toronto each year. That will go towards travel costs.

1302 We also are going to set up a program with recording studios in Vancouver, a training program for people from the four groups where they can go in and learn about the recording industry. Again, we are going to have to pay the studio for the time, we are going to have to pay the people for the training sessions.

1303 All radio stations do intern programs where they have people from the universities or the radio colleges come in and work for nothing to learn about the radio industry. We are going to, again, go out and seek people from these four groups to come in and learn about radio, and we are going to pay them for it. Okay? We are going to train them about our industry and we are going to pay them for it.

1304 We are also going to set up sessions -- and again, the advisory board will work on this with us. We are going to set up sessions where we will bring people into Vancouver from the area and do seminars about the various industries that are associated with radio, the recording industry, the arts, and we will hopefully link the whole package together.

1305 So it is above and beyond what we are currently doing.

1306 THE CHAIRPERSON: But when you say you are going to pay them for it, just to make sure I understand this, you are going to pay them to come in and work in your station?

1307 MR. SLAIGHT: No, to come in and learn about radio.

1308 THE CHAIRPERSON: To come in and learn in the radio.

1309 MR. SLAIGHT: Absolutely.

1310 THE CHAIRPERSON: So they wouldn't be working, they would be --

1311 MR. SLAIGHT: Oh, no. They would be doing things to learn about the business, but they will not be employees of the radio station. It could be weekends where we bring our staff in to show them how to do dubbing or news or any of the other elements of radio where currently they maybe don't have an opportunity.

1312 THE CHAIRPERSON: So these would be specific training activities for these designated groups?

1313 MR. SLAIGHT: Exactly.

1314 THE CHAIRPERSON: Who would be responsible for the day-to-day administration and management of the fund, assessing the applications and what criteria are used in determining who does or does not receive funding?

1315 MR. SLAIGHT: Are you talking about the various funding here or this particular one>

1316 THE CHAIRPERSON: The designated group.

1317 MR. SLAIGHT: We will work with our advisory board on that. Eric will, as the program director of the radio station, oversee it.

1318 THE CHAIRPERSON: So you haven't set up the specific criteria or administration at this point?

1319 MR. SLAIGHT: No, we haven't.

1320 THE CHAIRPERSON: That is to be determined.

1321 MR. SLAIGHT: That would be worked on with the local advisory board.

1322 THE CHAIRPERSON: So you don't know how many applications you would expect to approve and fund each year under the program?

1323 MR. SLAIGHT: No, we don't, but we would be happy to file a summary annually in terms of how the fund progresses.

1324 THE CHAIRPERSON: And how will members of the designated groups be made aware of the fund?

1325 MR. SLAIGHT: Promote it on the air. We would buy advertising in the newspapers -- I hate to say that -- and we would get it out as many ways as possible. It doesn't work if we don't have people reacting and responding to it.

1326 THE CHAIRPERSON: Now, your FACTOR contribution. I wonder if you could talk to me a bit about the FACTOR contribution and how that will relate to the Vancouver artists and the Vancouver media. I know it's for Canadian jazz artists and I wonder if there is any tie-in to Vancouver artists or B.C. artists?

1327 MR. SLAIGHT: We haven't specified because it is a large amount of money annually, but we have specified, and I do have a letter from Heather at FACTOR, that the money will go directly to jazz artists in Canada.

1328 We have, in conversations with Heather, indicated we would like to figure out a way to make sure that a portion of this goes to Vancouver artists. It is just a situation of we don't know where the response is going to come from in terms of who will be applying and we want to make sure we spend the money.

1329 THE CHAIRPERSON: You know, certainly I think you probably know a lot more about FACTOR than a lot of other people and there is no question, I think, that some of us have wondered to what extent the mechanisms are in place in FACTOR to ensure that there is an equitable effort to identify and develop talent from across the country and not just in Toronto where FACTOR is headquartered. So maybe you could just tell me a bit about that.

1330 MR. SLAIGHT: Well, I have been a long-time sponsor. We are one of the highest overall sponsors over the years. Our programming director ran FACTOR for a few years.

1331 But do I personally know the mechanisms they have in place? I don't. All that I know is that they do represent, from what I hear, the whole country in terms of the music they release.

1332 When I get my box of CDs every month and have a look at them, I know there are artists from all parts of Canada that are being represented.

1333 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

1334 Now, I have some questions about proposals 8 and 9, The Vancouver Jazz Festival Radio Show and The Jazz Report Radio Show.

1335 Now, as you know, the Commission has clearly stated that hosts in programs are more or less part of regular programming schedules and we do not accept these as contributions to Canadian talent development.

1336 I wonder if you could tell me if there are any other factors that we should be aware of that would allow for an exception in this case?

1337 MR. SLAIGHT: Well, as we said, we are prepared to spend the money if you don't accept this particular benefit. However, in terms of Robert from the Jazz Festival, in our discussions with him in order to get him to do a jazz show to reflect Canadian jazz artists and to hopefully tie in what he is doing in the community and his involvement with the community, we think it could be a special show and we think we could syndicate this show and get some exposure for it in other parts of the country.

1338 We could run on the weekends, when we are going to run the program, we could run voicetrack, you know, have one of our weekday announcers play music. So this would be something special that would focus on Canadian talent that most likely would not be on the air otherwise, because we are going to have to pay him to do this.

1339 THE CHAIRPERSON: You know, I understand that and I think that really -- again I just want to reiterate that where I'm coming from is not to question in any way the value of this kind of program on a jazz station.

1340 But it seems to me particularly, as I say, when you are starting a new station and a new format and you have people who are known and recognized in the jazz community, it would seem to make good business sense to be having them on your station.

1341 Again, I think this is a highly competitive process and it is a very lucrative market. I think that you will agree that the FM operators in this market have done very well by this market.

1342 So for us going forward with this, it is really to say -- and especially when we look at the CTD commitments, that we are saying "Well, what should appropriately be part of doing normal business and what would we expect a licensee to do?"

1343 So I think it is -- just so you understand, it is in no way a question as to the -- what do I say --

1344 MR. SLAIGHT: The merits.

1345 THE CHAIRPERSON: -- the merits -- absolutely. That is exactly right -- of those two shows. So I just --

1346 MR. SLAIGHT: Right. Maybe I could just talk about the process we went through and where we have ended up, because, you know, when we started -- when we decided that we were going to launch this radio station and we were going to file an application, we spent a whole lot of time talking to people in the industry and we wanted to come up with a program that was diverse and that at the end of the day achieved the end result of supporting Canadian talent. Those were our two objectives there.

1347 We were not trying to cut our costs. We were trying to be creative and we were trying to come up with ways to showcase Canadian talent.

1348 So I think all of these things do that. Are all of them going to be accepted as true benefits? That is up for you to decide. We have said in our presentation that we will -- we have made the commitment to spend the money. If you decide that you don't feel some of these quality, we will put the money into one of the other benefits.

1349 THE CHAIRPERSON: It certainly isn't a matter of cutting costs.

1350 Maybe you could tell me, what would the value of an FM -- if you had to buy an FM station in this market, what would your guesstimate be of the value of an FM station?

1351 MR. SLAIGHT: It depends which radio station you are buying. CISL, I will pay you --

1352 THE CHAIRPERSON: No, I said FM.

1353 MR. SLAIGHT: Oh, sorry.

--- Laughter / Rires

1354 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good try!

1355 MR. SLAIGHT: I would suggest at least $20 million, would be my guesstimate, and up from there.

1356 THE CHAIRPERSON: I would say that is probably a fairly conservative estimate. But having said that, you can, I think, appreciate then, that we, as the -- how do I put this -- the regulatory, or the landlord for the public, wants to sure that we are getting the best proposal, and that is not just in terms of the best proposal to go on the air, but the most benefits in terms of the public, given that an FM licence is a bit of a prize.

1357 So it's not a suggestion that you are cutting costs, but it is really a matter of saying, you know, what kind of investments are you prepared to make in this market given how lucrative it is as part of doing business here and not necessarily just -- not to minimize the Canadian talent development commitments, but just to say where do they fit and where do they most appropriately fit in order to really make a go of the station here.

1358 MR. SLAIGHT: I appreciate that. I think our $1 million annual commitment is substantial, and I think also you have to look at our whole package and our other commitments in terms of our 35 per cent Cancon and our commitment to the jazz format.

1359 THE CHAIRPERSON: We are looking at everything.

1360 Now, again, Canadian -- I think that was 8 and 9.

1361 Now, Canadian Jazz Specialists. I guess it is really more of the same. So same answer?

1362 MR. SLAIGHT: No, slight different answer, because Bill is in Toronto and this radio station is not in Toronto. He has a full-time job with his magazine and with his Web site and with his record company, and to ask him to do a four-hour program every week, which will be interviewing Canadian artists who are available in Toronto who maybe we don't have access to in Vancouver, and to keep an eye on the Toronto jazz scene for us, again is something that would we do anyway? I'm not 100 per cent sure whether we would do it, other than the fact that we are trying to be creative and we are trying to come up with ways to support Canadian talent.

1363 THE CHAIRPERSON: Would that show be your non-local programming that you identified in the --

1364 MR. SLAIGHT: That is correct.

1365 THE CHAIRPERSON: Now your CWC commitment.

1366 You have indicated that you will explore with CWC the ways in which this contribution might be directed to their new media initiatives. Can you tell me why you feel this proposal to contribute should qualify?

1367 MR. SLAIGHT: Well, it is above and beyond our current commitment of $25,000 a year, number one.

1368 Number two -- and it has been accepted as a benefit in the past. In talking to Stephanie, and again in trying to be creative with our Canadian talent commitments and our spending of the money, she indicated that they could use some money to go towards this particular area. They are trying to develop it. She has filed a letter supporting our application and we were hopeful that would be included as a benefit.

1369 THE CHAIRPERSON: So what we don't know yet, then, is exactly how they would be --

1370 MR. SLAIGHT: No, we have to finalize that, other than to indicate we want to earmark it towards new media in some way, shape or form.

1371 THE CHAIRPERSON: You haven't identified whether or not it would be directed to Vancouver chapter or a national chapter?

1372 MR. SLAIGHT: I had indicated to her we would try to focus it on Vancouver.

1373 THE CHAIRPERSON: If this was not accepted, would you still proceed with the contribution or direct it elsewhere?

1374 MR. SLAIGHT: As I say, we are currently in at $25,000, which is the platinum sponsor -- a diamond sponsor, I should say. We are one of the founding members of CWC, so this would be above and beyond our current commitment.

1375 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

1376 I was not going to do this, but I have to say I have been struck since this morning when I look out at the room -- not the panel, the room -- and there are not very many women in this room today.

1377 MR. SLAIGHT: That's a good point.

1378 I can't attest to the people behind me in the room, but that is an excellent point. I just had a look and noticed the same thing.

1379 THE CHAIRPERSON: So it makes you reflect, maybe, on how well these initiatives and groups and activities are doing. They don't seen to be translating really too much, do they?

1380 MR. SLAIGHT: Oh, I think they are.

1381 THE CHAIRPERSON: Do you?

1382 MR. SLAIGHT: I think they are, and we see it in our company in certainly areas specifically, especially in sales, on-air. I think that it has had a big impact.

1383 THE CHAIRPERSON: What percentage of your management would be women or -- women?

1384 MR. SLAIGHT: You know what, I'm not sure. Ian Lurie might have that number.

1385 Ian, do we have that number available?

1386 MR. LURIE: What I can tell you is that in 1998 when we analyzed our workforce, our representation of females across all occupational groups was about 34.1 per cent and the total national average is 34.3 per cent.

1387 THE CHAIRPERSON: What does that mean "across all occupational"?

1388 MR. LURIE: That means on an aggregated basis. So if you take a look at our total workforce, from a female's point of view, we were extremely close to the amount of availability of women in the workforce.

1389 THE CHAIRPERSON: But you don't break it down by management or --

1390 MR. LURIE: We do break it down by management, but I don't have that number. But we are -- in our work we have been doing unemployment equity. We are well represented in the female area. We have always ranked well within the broadcasting group and we have always had very little issue with our female representation.

1391 MR. SLAIGHT: It is a process and it is a process in our industry in terms of moving women through the system into sales management up to the next level. As I say, I have been in the business 30 years and there are way more women in the industry now in all areas.

1392 If you look 10 or 15 years ago it wasn't the same situation. Part of it is our responsibility, most of it is our responsibility to encourage it, but they weren't also coming into the business 10 or 15 years ago whereas it is occurring now.

1393 But we can give you the number on our company after the fact. I just don't have it, but there are -- in sales management and programming in our company, there are females in the markets.

1394 THE CHAIRPERSON: I don't need it. Just it struck me when I looked at this and I noticed the room earlier.

1395 If I can just go back to your initiative with respect to designated groups, will you have a recruitment program through that to use that to recruit employees to this new station?

1396 MR. SLAIGHT: Absolutely. That is part of the reason we are doing it.

1397 Now, are we doing that anyway? Yes, we do, to some degree. But we see this as being a training and a recruitment situation at the same time.

1398 THE CHAIRPERSON: So you have goals with respect to recruitment?

1399 MR. SLAIGHT: We don't have goals in terms of this particular program, other than we hope it will work. Again, it is something we are going to have to sit down with the advisory board and put the program together and make sure that the money is being spent efficiently and it is having an impact.

1400 THE CHAIRPERSON: All right.

1401 Speaking of which, the advisory board. How many members will make up the advisory board? How often will they meet?

1402 MR. SLAIGHT: We have currently confirmed eight members. Four are from Vancouver and four are from other parts of Canada.

1403 Again, the reason we are doing that is because we see this as being a situation where we are trying to encourage a national jazz system.

1404 So it is a lot to do with the music in terms of the national advisory board. The local advisory board will help us deal with local issues.

1405 Our advisory board includes Carol Welsman; Jim West, who runs a record label called Justin Time Records out of Montreal. He is also Chairman of FACTOR. Sylvia Sweeney, who has produced a documentary on Oscar Peterson; Doug Kirk from Hamilton, and that is to do with the synergy between our station and Doug's station; and locally we have Lee Aaron, who is a jazz artist; Chris Terry, who is from the jazz community; Kerry Galloway, who is from the jazz -- Chris is in a band called Metalwood; Kerry Galloway and Rick Kilburn, who is the producer.

1406 THE CHAIRPERSON: Will it be permanent members or annually reviewed?

1407 MR. SLAIGHT: Again, this is the initial board and we have not set up structures. That would be premature for us to do so at this point in time. All that we have done with these people is have them agree to be part of it. We could have probably had another 20 people. There was a lot of interest in this.

1408 THE CHAIRPERSON: I guess the question is: Why do you consider that you need an advisory board to keep the station and why should that be a Canadian talent development initiative?

1409 MR. SLAIGHT: The $10,000 is directed towards travel. We see that again in terms of the jazz industry in Canada a lot of the business is done in Toronto. So we are going to want to take our people from Vancouver into Toronto once a year to see what is going on, to meet with the record companies. Conversely, we are going to want to bring the people from Toronto into Vancouver to see what is going on in this marketplace.

1410 Again, we have to see -- we can't just isolate it on Vancouver. We have to try to make sure that Vancouver is represented in Toronto where all the record companies are, as a rule, and where a lot of activity happens in terms of discovering and establishing stars in this country.

1411 THE CHAIRPERSON: If we didn't accept it as a Canadian talent development initiative, would you still go ahead with it?

1412 MR. SLAIGHT: Absolutely.

1413 THE CHAIRPERSON: With respect to the Canadian Jazz Alliance contribution, could you just provide us with some information about it, such as when it was founded, its membership?

1414 MR. SLAIGHT: Maybe Bill can talk a little about the Jazz Alliance in terms of his knowledge of the association.

1415 I contacted Nancy Houle from the Jazz Alliance, again back -- way back when, when we first started looking at putting this application together. I met with her a number of times. We agreed that part of our contributions would go towards the Jazz Alliance on the understanding that the funding would be approved by her board and that it was used for something legitimate. So that is part of our application.

1416 We are hoping that the Jazz Alliance will continue to exist and we are planning to contribute to that association.

1417 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

1418 Now I have some questions on your revenue projections.

1419 Would you agree that each share point is worth over $1 million in this market?

1420 MR. SLAIGHT: No.

1421 THE CHAIRPERSON: No. What would you say each share point is worth?

1422 MR. SLAIGHT: I will have Gary talk about it, because he operates in the marketplace.

1423 MR. RUSSELL: Roughly a share point is worth about $830,000. Vancouver annually is right now about an $83 million a year marketplace. Okay?

1424 THE CHAIRPERSON: Next question is: Do you think your revenue projections are conservative, given all the optimism about this format?

1425 MR. SLAIGHT: We think they are conservative, but realistic. In other words, four times $800,000 -- because we are projecting a four share -- is about $3 million. We have put in $2.8 million for the first year.

1426 I think you will notice if you look at the revenue projections from the various groups, the ones in the marketplace who are currently operating radio stations here are all pretty well in the same area. The three operators who are not in the marketplace are not quite where we all are.

1427 So because we operate in the marketplace and based on our local knowledge, I think our revenue numbers are realistic but probably slightly conservative.

1428 THE CHAIRPERSON: What about your share projection?

1429 MR. SLAIGHT: I think our share projections might be slightly aggressive.

1430 THE CHAIRPERSON: The only other question I have, and I'm just going to get back to this a bit, is when we are looking at the various applications and we have some of the larger established players, like yourself, a big national player as well as an established player in this market; we have some new players, or new applicants; we have people who are based here in the Vancouver market.

1431 Certainly one of the issues in terms of looking at the overall health of the Canadian broadcasting system we have to look at a lot of different elements. Certainly one that is important to me is: What is the role of local ownership and what is the role of having diverse ownership in a system? That means from various parts of the country.

1432 But having said that, I also think that it is incumbent on us -- we are national regulators, we have to do what is in the best interest of all Canadians, so we balance a lot of these things.

1433 One thing that is an area of concern to me -- and you can maybe help me with this -- is when I look at how lucrative the Vancouver market is and when I look at -- I didn't bring my reading glasses -- the average revenue per FM station is about $10 million in this market; and the PBIT is $4 million; pre-tax profit averages $2.8 million.

1434 You do operate two stations here, and if we just look at your FM, because I think that is what we are talking about at the moment, and I look at the sales and promotion expenses -- and I'm not quite sure what is in that -- and then I look at the pre-tax profit, and you talk about Standard's reputation. On page 3 of your comments today, you are proud of your distinguished history in public and community service.

1435 I think it is equally important that when a company, in whatever industry it is, is headquartered in any given community or city, naturally it will be more engaged, if its head office is there, in a lot of activities in that community, whether it is supporting the local hospital, and it is not necessarily directed related to, in this case, Canadian talent development, but really its role as a leader in a community in terms of supporting a lot of community activities.

1436 This is why, partly, I was interested in knowing to what extent does Standard engage in this community, support community activities that may not in fact be identified as Canadian talent development or directly as part of your sales and promotion expenses. How much of that profit, which doesn't show up on the financial summaries you file with us, is left behind in this community?

1437 Maybe you could just talk a little bit more about that.

1438 MR. SLAIGHT: I mean, philosophically as a company, I think we do as much or more than any radio group in this country in terms of supporting the communities that we operate. It is part of one of our core values as a company that we share with our employees and that is we have to give back to the communities that we are licensed to serve, and we appreciate that.

1439 But at the same time, we are in the business to show a profit and to make -- in a tough environment right now, to continue to make profits, to make up -- and again you have to look at it nationally.

1440 So in terms of what do we do for our community in Vancouver, I can have Eric talk about it a little bit, but I think if you have a look at some of the interventions on our behalf you will get a sense of all the things that we do for community charity groups in Vancouver that are not necessarily part of our Canadian talent dollar commitments or getting us any audience. It is something we have our people consider as part of doing business right across the country, and we do it in every marketplace.

1441 I mean, we have raised over $10 million in Toronto for the Sick Kids Hospital and are one of the two largest benefactors to that hospital. That has absolutely nothing to do with any of our profits or any of our commitments or any of our -- it has to do with something we believe in in that marketplace. There are similar examples right across the group if you look at every one of them.

1442 We just raised $250,000 in Montreal for Kids Help Phones -- or the Children's Wish, I think it was.

1443 So I think that is our mandate.

1444 In terms of Canadian talent, as I said, I think if you ask any artist in Canada or anybody in the music industry about Standard Radio's commitment to Canadian talent, it is unquestionable it is sincere and it is above and beyond the call of duty in most cases.

1445 THE CHAIRPERSON: Believe me, this is not to suggest it isn't, but it really is -- when you talk about raising $10 million, for instance, for Sick Kids -- and I don't want to belabour this point -- but I think that when you have a head office in a community and you have the owners and the CEOs you often get -- I'm not saying that it's not -- I don't know what you are doing here, but you often get a bigger commitment to supporting these kinds of institutions in a city.

1446 So this is why it is often a concern of mine, and those of us who live outside Toronto or Montreal, that we are looking at what kinds of -- this is the importance of having ownership that is diverse across the country and/or companies that act like local companies. Maybe that is the way to put it.

1447 MR. SLAIGHT: And I think we do act like a local company, but we are still only three or four years in this marketplace and a lot of it has to do with heritage in the marketplace, wherever the head office.

1448 I mean, if you look at Canwest and their relationship with Winnipeg, you can't question that, and yet I know they are doing a lot of things as they expand in other marketplaces. I think we are similar in that regard.

1449 Eric, just talk a little bit about some of the community things that we support.

1450 MR. SAMUELS: Well, this is my community. I live here. I'm from Montreal originally and I have lived across Canada. This is my home. I don't plan to leave -- Gary.

1451 MR. SLAIGHT: If we buy a station a station in Moose Jaw, you're gone!

--- Laughter / Rires

1452 MR. SAMUELS: I feel as a broadcaster and as a member of the community, it is my responsibility to be involved with community groups. The United Way is one that we embrace wholeheartedly. As a radio station actually, the staff of our radio station this past few months raised nearly $20,000 for the United Way. That is unprecedented.

1453 The radio station is involved, individuals of the radio station. This may not be where our head office is, but this is where live. Gary Russell, the General Manager, makes his home here, has his family here. We are very much rooted in the community. As Gary alluded to, core values of this company are that being part of the community means committing to that community.

1454 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

1455 Now we are on to the technical areas.

1456 MR. SLAIGHT: Oh, great. That is my area of non-expertise.

1457 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mine too, it will be interesting.

1458 As you know, other applicants wish to use 94.5, one of them being the CBC which proposed the frequency for la Chaîne culturelle. You have indicated on your letter dated August 21 that CBC could use an alternative frequency for its application, either 106.9 or 107.1 or one of the non-commercial educational frequencies, 88.1 or 88.3. The letter also stated that you would accept one of the alternative frequencies should the Commission grant 94.5 to the CBC.

1459 I'm wondering if you or your engineering consultants have conducted tests or studies to verify that these alternate frequencies could indeed be used in Vancouver, either for your application or for the CBC.

1460 MR. SLAIGHT: Well, first of all, let me start off and then I'm going to have Peter and Gord, Gord Elder who is chomping at the bit to say a few things at the hearing.

--- Laughter / Rires

1461 MR. SLAIGHT: We believe the main frequency is where this jazz station belongs in terms of serving the community. Would we accept the other frequency if that was our only option? Yes, we would. But we don't think that is the best thing for the public interest.

1462 Maybe, Peter, you could just speak to that for a second.

1463 MR. GRANT: Thank you.

1464 We have done a little more homework since filing the application because, of course, one the applications were gazetted there were applications for certain of the other frequencies we identified and so that had to be also taken into account.

1465 As Gary has indicated, 94.5 is the best frequency that is available and has the broadest coverage for Vancouver, and that is why for a station of this kind it is preferable.

1466 The position of Standard, as expressed in the letter, was that a better frequency that would still work quite well for the CBC would be 107.1. Now, the numbers that are in that letter that you quote from, Madam Chair, demonstrate that 107.1, if used by the CBC, would result in really a very small loss of potential French-language listeners, and over half of those would still be able to get the signal from the CBC's Victoria station.

1467 Now, we heard this morning from the CBC that they suggested that 107.1 would be a compromise that would give them only 20 per cent of the audience, I think it was, of a full 94.5. On our preliminary look we just don't agree with that.

1468 The reason is that we think the CBC is basing that basically on sharing its present master FM antenna, which would limit the maximum power to 120 watts. But if instead they did a separate custom-designed antenna at the CBC's Mount Seymore site, that would give them an effective radiated power of 1 kilowatt maximum, which then would serve 73 per cent of the population in the greater Vancouver area, as we have indicated in this letter.

1469 Now, we think 107.1 is definitely feasible for Vancouver. Just to lay this out -- and we could deal with this at the intervention stage -- Rogers has applied for that frequency in, of course, Abbotsford. We will be opposing that use because we think a better use, instead of using it for Abbotsford, would be use it for Vancouver.

1470 There is a perfectly acceptable Abbotsford frequency, 99.9, which we think would serve Rogers correctly.

1471 As to the use of 107.1 in Vancouver, it is short spaced to an existing station owned by Rogers in Squamish, CISQ, but the intervening mountains fully protect both stations. The only thing that is at issue would be a small area of interference on part of Bowen Island south of Horseshoe Bay. The area is mostly seawater and sparsely populated.

1472 So what normally would happen in this process is, if an applicant was to come forward with 107.1, they would first seek an agreement with Rogers regarding that minor encroachment.

1473 If Rogers refused, Industry Canada's position is that they would be asked to grant conditional technical acceptance so that the Commission would look at it and be able to decide whether or not to approve the application based on the public interest.

1474 There are many precedents for this, and that is why we are quite confident that when push comes to shove 107.1 would work quite well in Vancouver. Now, it isn't as good as 94.5, but it should suffice to provide the CBC, we think, with a quite reasonable approach to providing its secondary service.

1475 If the Commission were to decide that, no, we will have 94.5 go to the CBC instead, obviously, as Gary has indicated, 107.1, we would use that instead for smooth jazz. But I think the better use of a spectrum would be -- to maximize its use of the spectrum, is to take the better frequency and use it for a service that will be really focused on the broad market, the English-speaking market, when we do realize that there is this other frequency that would work for the CBC.

1476 THE CHAIRPERSON: Do you have these additional studies that you have identified, the additional work you have done?

1477 MR. GRANT: Yes. We have, I think -- the copies of the feasibility were provided to both the CBC and the CRTC. So I think the technical element is there.

1478 Also we can provide you copies of our 99.9 contour map for Abbotsford. We were going to be filing that in the intervention process, but we can do that this week, if you wish.

1479 We should also clarify one thing, and that is that there is a Nanaimo application for 106.9. We initially had thought that that too might be inconsistent with 107.1, but we have since concluded on a look more closely at it that the area of interference with Nanaimo would be purely over water and the two frequencies could quite well work together.

1480 We have communicated that to Central Island, which is the applicant for Nanaimo. They have agreed with us that they could accept the interference level. So we are, in effect, withdrawing our technical intervention against Nanaimo. We think that would work fine. We would be able to provide you a copy of the 106.9 map for Nanaimo that will demonstrate this.

1481 THE CHAIRPERSON: You made some references with respect to 107.1 and what would be required. You have said there are lots of precedents.

1482 Could you just go over that with me again?

1483 MR. SLAIGHT: Gord.

1484 MR. ELDER: Do you mean the requirements at the transmitting site?

1485 THE CHAIRPERSON: I'm not sure.

1486 MR. ELDER: It would be a custom designed antenna at Mount Seymore the CBC tower to optimize the use of 107.1 and provide that one kilowatt maximum power, whereas if they were sharing their present antenna the power would be limited to 120 watts, which is just not a cost-effective plan.

1487 THE CHAIRPERSON: You did mention a precedent, that there were precedents that the Commission -- that there was some other use of the frequency or --

1488 MR. ELDER: Oh, yes. I understand now what you are driving at.

1489 There are many precedents for administration agreeing to a minor area of interference to an existing station, and that would be the Squamish one way down at the mouth of the River.

1490 THE CHAIRPERSON: You mean Howe Sound?

1491 MR. ELDER: I really do, yes.

1492 THE CHAIRPERSON: I thought you did.

--- Laughter / Rires

1493 THE CHAIRPERSON: That would be a very big river.

1494 MR. ELDER: I have been up that way.

1495 It is just because the mountains don't let the signal go east or west but it can go south.

1496 THE CHAIRPERSON: If you say so.

--- Laughter / Rires

1497 MR. SLAIGHT: Commissioner Grauer --

1498 THE CHAIRPERSON: We have actually spent a fair amount of time trying to understand these frequency issues --

1499 MR. ELDER: I'm sure.

1500 THE CHAIRPERSON: -- and I'm sure that as we go through the week we will have more information to help us to hopefully clarify. We can get our degree in frequency whatever.

1501 MR. SLAIGHT: Commissioner Grauer, this is why I say to our engineering people "Just keep us on the air. Don't tell me how."

1502 MR. ELDER: You asked about tests, had we made tests on 88.1 and 88.3. No.

1503 In our feasibility study we said that that was more appropriate for the CBC to do so. They had already made tests on 88.9. I firmly believe that a low power operation, possibly 500 watts or less, on 88.3 could be made to work at Mount Seymore.

1504 THE CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry, I used the wrong word.

1505 I'm wondering if you have any studies that you have done subsequent that is not with us that has helped you come to this conclusion. Do you have any other written information that you can file with us that we don't have?

1506 MR. ELDER: No, neither do we have the report from the CBC. Neither does the Commission have it on their tests on 88.9. However, these are an essential part of a plan for one of those frequencies in order to ensure that the Channel 6 television station is not interfered with significantly and the new FM frequency is viable.

1507 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. I don't know exactly the area of interference that you are referring to and I'm sure we will --

1508 MR. ELDER: It was in north Vancouver, for example.

1509 THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, it is west Vancouver actually, Howe Sound, Bowen Island.

1510 MR. ELDER: Oh, that.

1511 THE CHAIRPERSON: I'm just not sure. There are a lot of people who live there. The extent to which it would be interfered with I guess we will have to see in maps and whatnot.

1512 MR. ELDER: Well, we do have a map for that, showing that small area.

1513 But again, that is the -- we are talking now only about the Rogers station up in -- where is it? Squamish.

1514 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, okay.

1515 I have a little bit more.

1516 MR. SLAIGHT: Would you like us to run through that again?

1517 THE CHAIRPERSON: No. No.

--- Laughter / Rires

1518 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank goodness we brought out technical expert with us, so I'm sure if there is anything further that he needs, he will ask.

1519 I wonder if you could elaborate why, in your opinion, 94.5 -- I suppose you have done that, haven't you -- be granted to you rather than to CBC or to any other applicant. Perhaps you could elaborate on that.

1520 MR. SLAIGHT: I could summarize in terms of why Standard Radio should be granted a licence at 94.5, and I would reduce it to five points.

1521 First, we feel that Standard Radio has a record of community service that is unparalleled in the industry.

1522 Some examples I mentioned earlier when we were chatting about Montreal and Toronto. Locally in Vancouver we have raised millions of dollars for organizations which have filed interventions for us.

1523 So that is our first point.

1524 Our second point relates to the format. We have chosen a format for Vancouver smooth jazz that is distinctive and unique, yet broadly popular, focusing on music that is not currently being played in the marketplace.

1525 To ensure that we stay true to that format, we have committed to devote 80 per cent -- at least 80 per cent of our music to jazz and blues, the highest of any applicant.

1526 The third point is the fact that in developing our benefit package we have consulted extensively with the communities affected, as recognized consistently by the many interventions on our behalf.

1527 Fourth, we propose a Canadian content level of 35 per cent. That is the highest of any of the jazz applicants.

1528 Finally, we proposed $8.75 million in Canadian talent benefits with a package that is designed to have local and national synergies that will benefit an unserved segment of the music industry. This is again the highest level of any of the applicants.

1529 So those are the give reasons why we think we should get this licence.

1530 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

1531 You have confirmed that you would be willing to take another frequency if 94.5 wasn't available. Did you not earlier?

1532 MR. SLAIGHT: Yes, we would.

1533 THE CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry, maybe I should make that a question.

1534 MR. SLAIGHT: If it was -- which one, Peter?

1535 MR. GRANT: It was 107.1.

1536 MR. SLAIGHT: Yes.

1537 THE CHAIRPERSON: Would you be willing to use an AM frequency for a proposed station?

1538 MR. SLAIGHT: Not another one, no.

1539 THE CHAIRPERSON: No.

1540 Perhaps, Mr. Elder, you could tell me: Are you aware of any AM frequencies that would be available in the Vancouver market, clear ones?

1541 MR. ELDER: I'm afraid we haven't searched the band recently.

1542 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

1543 I believe Commissioner Cram has a question.

1544 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you, Madam Chair.

1545 Mr. Elder, what is the difference in cost to the CBC if instead of using that sort of a collateral transmitter -- recognize, I don't have your little ring on your fifth finger from the wrecked bridge, but --

--- Laughter / Rires

1546 COMMISSIONER CRAM: You suggest a customized transmitter whereas the CBC wanted to do one that was sort of attached, I guess. What would be the difference in cost to the CBC in setting up?

1547 MR. ELDER: It would be a two-panel antenna and the cost would be in the order of $12,000, plus transmission lines. Maybe $15,000 total.

1548 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Mr. Cassidy, I wanted to talk to you about the issue of the appeal of this format being slightly higher in visible minorities. I wonder if we can explore just a little further -- and I may be showing my ignorance -- but is there not a difference in visible minorities?

1549 My understanding of American minorities are that they are Afro-American, Cuban, Puerto Rican and Mexican. Do you know of any specific data or instances where it would show that the appeal of this genre would be, as you say, slightly higher in the visible minority from China?

1550 MR. CASSIDY: I'm not sure I understood. I was with you until you said "from China".

1551 COMMISSIONER CRAM: You speak very eloquently about the U.S. experience --

1552 MR. CASSIDY: Right.

1553 COMMISSIONER CRAM: -- but in the last couple of years the vast majority of our immigrants --

1554 MR. CASSIDY: Right.

1555 COMMISSIONER CRAM: -- and we are a country made of immigrants, do not come from Spanish-speaking countries nor from Afro-American countries. They come from China, they come from Asia, they come from India, the Philippines, they come from Pakistan, they come from Taiwan.

1556 So what I'm trying to ask is, when you talk about the genre skewing slightly higher for minorities, do you have any basis to believe that that would be true in Canada when the minorities in the U.S. are not the list that I have just given you?

1557 MR. CASSIDY: Yes. And again, I appreciate you going through that and explaining that to me a little better.

1558 In the United States one of the things that is different from what I have seen in Canada is that the ethnic communities are not subcategorized as much as they are here.

1559 COMMISSIONER CRAM: We are a mosaic, that's why.

1560 MR. CASSIDY: The biggest difference is it comes down to the different ethnic communities and how they index higher with this format is the African American community which usually indexes higher, absolutely.

1561 The reason I pointed to examples such as Seattle and San Francisco is that the African American community in those markets, which is right down the coast, is much more similar to Vancouver.

1562 Also, those markets have very high Asian populations and that population has given great support to the smooth jazz format. Our indications are that it would do the same thing in Vancouver.

1563 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So you are saying "Asian" as in terms of China or primarily Vietnamese?

1564 MR. CASSIDY: It is Asian. Again, the United States does not break out Asian at all. In fact, what they do break out is they break out Latino and they break out African American and then they put white and Asian together.

1565 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay. Thank you.

1566 Thirdly, Mr. Slaight, again I'm at what criteria should we use to compare CTD. In comparing and being able to assess which is the better CTD, should we be looking at the fact that one is a regional initiative versus a national initiative or, if so, should we be looking at the actual split? What should we use to be able to compare one to another and say one is better?

1567 MR. SLAIGHT: God forbid I should tell you how to do your job, but --

1568 COMMISSIONER CRAM: No. You can just give me ideas though.

1569 MR. SLAIGHT: We went through this in Calgary, Commissioner Cram --

1570 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yes.

1571 MR. SLAIGHT: -- and I think you have to look at -- I believe the amount is important, and especially in Vancouver where we have already talked about how lucrative these licences will be. So I think in Vancouver the amount of the benefit is important.

1572 I also believe philosophically, from our company's point of view, that it is important that we put that -- that we create a star system in Canada for the community that will be supported on this radio station, and that is the jazz community. That is why most of our benefits have gone towards helping Canadian jazz stars.

1573 COMMISSIONER CRAM: When I look at your projections, and it is more than a 2-to-1 ratio of local advertising to national advertising that you expect to receive over the coming years. Would we then say that perhaps the benefits should follow approximately that same ratio, at least to that extent?

1574 I tell you, the reason I say that is I look at -- and I have written all over my notes on the FACTOR, Vancouver, B.C. artists, Canadian Music Week, Vancouver, B.C. artists. Should we not, especially when you are going to be getting, you know, more than two-thirds -- at least you are projecting to get more than two-thirds of your revenue, shouldn't we be looking for something like that even and use that as a --

1575 MR. SLAIGHT: I don't know, because it is advertising dollars coming into the marketplace which really have nothing to do with the rest of Canada.

1576 COMMISSIONER CRAM: But it is local advertising, more than two-thirds.

1577 MR. SLAIGHT: No, I appreciate that. I believe that is why we have acknowledged the importance of supporting the national. We haven't said we are going to put all of our money into the local jazz community, we have said we have to create a national scenario for these incentives as well. The money to FACTOR, the tour support, the showcase at Canadian Music Week in Toronto, a lot of these initiatives are focused in Vancouver but then taken out to the rest of Canada, hopefully.

1578 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yes. Should we be looking at a ratio, though, equivalent to, you know, your projected local to national revenues and say that this is the kind of -- or should we be talking, like the CBC or NewCap, on important national initiatives for the broadcasting system as being -- I will call it the trump, more important, subsuming the regional interests?

1579 MR. SLAIGHT: I think every applicant has a different philosophy and a different strategy in terms of how they want to put their Canadian program together and our has been to focus on the jazz industry, and in particular the artists.

1580 We think without the artists, and without the artists being able to move along, you are going to have a hard time with a radio station in this format. So we think it all part and parcel of the same commitment.

1581 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I will tell you, it appeared to me that if your issue was promoting the genre -- well, I shouldn't say "it appeared to me".

1582 Do you not think you would get more bang for your buck but combining with the only other smooth jazz station in Canada and building your initiatives together and building them so that they would interlink, at least on the national level?

1583 MR. SLAIGHT: That is the arrangement we have with Mr. Kirk.

1584 Remember, he applied and was granted the licence just as this process was evolving.

1585 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yes.

1586 MR. SLAIGHT: I met with Doug and have a letter from Doug on file that indicates that we will work together.

1587 In terms of how we are going to work together I think it is premature, but we both acknowledge the fact that we are both crucial to the development of this star system in Canada.

1588 And he has agreed to run our live concerts. We will run some of his programming here, which is why we have left some --

1589 Eric, how much did we leave for non-local?

1590 MR. SAMUELS: Point 6 hours a week.

1591 MR. SLAIGHT: Yes, so I think about four hours a week -- or what is it?

1592 MR. SAMUELS: It is just under an hour a week for interviews, et cetera.

1593 MR. SLAIGHT: Okay, an hour a week. That is for when Mr. Kirk has artists in Hamilton who aren't necessarily coming out to Vancouver and they are in the studio, we can link up and feature them live on the air in Vancouver.

1594 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

1595 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

1596 Legal counsel.

1597 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

1598 Briefly, Mr. Slaight, you might have answered the question earlier: If you were awarded a licence but not on 94.5, do you maintain the application as filed, all of the commitments, format, Canadian talent development?

1599 MR. SLAIGHT: Yes, we do.

1600 MR. RHÉAUME: Including the 35 per cent Category 3?

1601 MR. SLAIGHT: All of our commitments would still be on the table, absolutely.

1602 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you.

1603 Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

1604 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

1605 Thank you very much.

1606 I think that concludes our business for today and we will reconvene tomorrow morning at 9:00 a.m.

1607 Thank you very much.

--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1713, to resume

on Tuesday, November 21, 2000 at 0900 / L'audience

est ajournée à 1713, pour reprendre le mardi

21 novembre 2000 à 0900