ARCHIVED -  Transcript - Kingston, ON - 2000/05/09

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Bellevue Ballroom Bellevue Ballroom

Holiday Inn Holiday Inn

Kingston-Waterfront Kingston-Waterfront

1 Princess Street 1 Princess Street

Kingston, Ontario Kingston (Ontario)

May 9, 2000 le 9 mai 2000

Volume 1


In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages

Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be

bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members

and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of


However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded

verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in

either of the official languages, depending on the language

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.


Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues

officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront

bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des

membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience

publique ainsi que la table des matières.

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu

textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée

et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues

officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le

participant à l'audience publique.

Canadian Radio-television and

Telecommunications Commission

Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des

télécommunications canadiennes

Transcript / Transcription

Public Hearing / Audience publique

Broadcasting Applications and Licences/

Demandes et licences en radiodiffusion


A. Wylie Chairperson/Présidente

M. Wilson Commissioner/Conseillère

S. Langford Commissioner/Conseiller

J-M. Demers Commissioner/Conseiller

A. Noël Commissioner/Conseillère


P. Cussons Hearing Manager and Secretary / Gérant de l'audience et Secrétaire

G. Batstone Legal Counsel /

Conseiller juridique

L. Bennett Legal Counsel /

Conseillère juridique


Bellevue Ballroom Bellevue Ballroom

Holiday Inn Holiday Inn

Kingston-Waterfront Kingston-Waterfront

1 Princess Street 1 Princess Street

Kingston, Ontario Kingston (Ontario)

May 9, 2000 le 9 mai 2000

Volume 1







Questions by the Commission 146

Questions by Commission Counsel 153

Further questions by the Commission 162




John Montesano 173

Questions by the Commission 179



Chris Taylor 196

Questions by the Commission 198


Calvin Wong

Michael Koch 211

Questions by the Commission 219


Ann Summers 226

Questions by the Commission 229



Lou Sekulovski

Anna Chiappa

George Frajkor 233

Questions by the Commission 239


Gerry Weiner 246

Questions by the Commission 255


Rock Demers 260





Reuben Lando 276


John Kelly 280


Ken Marchant 289

Questions by the Commission 296


Wayne Kines 301


Joseph Volpe 308

Questions by the Commission 315


Firdaus J. Kharas 321

Questions by the Commission 328


Claude Galipeau 340

Questions by the Commission 344


T. Sher Singh 345





Questions by Commission Counsel

Questions by the Commission 363

Kingston, Ontario / Kingston (Ontario)

--- Upon commencing on Tuesday, May 9, 2000

at 0858 / L'audience commence le mardi

9 mai 2000 à 0858

1 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to this public hearing to consider an application from World Television Network for a national specialty programming service and three competing applications for an FM radio licence for Kingston.

2 Bonjour, mesdames et messieurs, nous vous souhaitons la bienvenue à cette audience.

3 I want to mention at the outset that, as is obvious, we have a problem in getting a translator, therefore there is no translation set up today. We intend to proceed to try to get translation services as quickly as we can. I want to point out, however, that anyone who wants to address us in French can. We are fluent and can hear you and speak to you in French.

4 If translation services are not in place on time for an intervenor, for example, who wants to address us in French, we will wait, if we have such a request, and place them at the bottom of the list so that they can be heard.

5 Malheureusement ce matin nous avons des problèmes avec les services d'interprétation. Nous n'avons pas d'interpréteur. Alors nous voulons vous assurer que si quelqu'un veut s'adresser à nous en français, ils peuvent le faire. Ils sont bienvenus et si nous n'avons pas de services d'interprétation à temps pour qu'une personne s'adresse à nous en français et qu'ils insistent pour la traduction, nous essaierons de les placer plus loin sur la liste d'intervenants pour qu'ils puissent s'adresser à nous en français.

6 A moins de ne pas continuer avec cette audience, c'est à peu près la seule solution que nous avons en ce moment.

7 Je m'appelle Andrée Wylie. Je suis la Vice-présidente, Radiodiffusion du Conseil et j'ai le plaisir de présider cette audience. J'ai à mes côtés mes collègues et co-conseillers. A ma droite, Martha Wilson who is the regional Ontario Commissioner. A sa droite Stuart Langford, à ma gauche Jean-Marie Demers et à sa gauche Andrée Noël.

8 CRTC staff assisting us at this hearing are Peter Cussons, who is doing double duty today as both Hearing Manager and Hearing Secretary; Geoff Batstone and Leanne Bennett, our legal counsel; and Lise Morin, who is in the examination room. We also will be assisted by CRTC specialists, Martine Vallée, Dylan Jones, Andrew McRae and Lyne Lalonde. Please do not hesitate to contact them if you have any procedural issues.

9 World Television Network, or WTM, is applying for a licence for a national specialty service to provide news, public affairs, film and entertainment programming from around the world. WTM requests that the service be given the right to be carried as part of the basic service for a mandatory fee of 30 cents per subscriber, except where WTM and the distributor agree to discretionary distribution.

10 WTM entend commencer par offrir le service en anglais et dans d'autres langues sous-titrées en anglais. La troisième année, la requérante commencerait à diffuser aussi en français et dans d'autres langues sous-titrées en français.

11 Pour ce qui est du contenu Canadien, WTM propose d'offrir un minimum -- ou Télémonde propose d'offrir un minimum de 40 pour cent d'émissions canadiennes la première année et d'augmenter ces pourcentages jusqu'à 60 pour cent au moins au cours des cinquième, sixième, septième années de la période d'application de licence.

12 Among other concerns, this panel will be exploring the fundamental issue of whether or not it would be in the public interest for WTM to be carried on basic on a nationwide basis.

13 The panel will also hear competing applications from McColman Media Inc., CHUM Limited and John P. Wright for an FM radio licence on frequency 105.7 for the Kingston area.

14 The radio applicants should clearly demonstrate to the panel the need for, as well as a market for the proposed service. As indicated by our new Commercial Radio Policy, the Commission is particularly interested in the following issues:

15 The contribution that the service will make toward achieving the objectives of the Broadcasting Act, as well as the provision of service meaningful to the community concerned;

16 The demand or support for the proposed service;

17 How the applicant intends to promote Canadian talent, particularly local and regional talent;

18 The soundness of the applicant's business plan, including market analysis and potential advertising revenue;

19 The availability of financial resources to meet the requirements set out in the financial projections of the applicant's business plan.

20 We will hear first the application from WTM and related interventions. We will then hear the presentations from the three competing FM applicants in the following manner:

21 First we will hear the presentation, followed by questions. The applicants will then be allowed an opportunity to comment on each other's application, and we will then hear from the intervenors, starting with intervenors who wish to comment on all the applications, followed by interventions concerning McColman, CHUM and Wright, in that order.

22 Finally, as usual, the applicants will respond to the intervenors in reverse order.

23 These proceedings will be described and filed on the public record.

24 I would ask that when you speak you press the button on the microphone in front of you. This will activate it. In order not to create interference, we ask that when you are not speaking you turn it off. The red light will indicate whether it is on or off.

25 I would also ask that you please turn off your cell phones during this proceeding. Unexpected noises can be a distraction for both applicants and Commissioners, especially grandmothers. You co-operation in this regard would be greatly appreciated.

26 We hope to complete this hearing tomorrow. We will, therefore, resume at 8:30 tomorrow morning.

27 We will complete the WTM application and interventions and reply today, so we may have to sit beyond 5:00. If so, we will. I will advise you of any change to this schedule as the hearing proceeds.

28 Je demanderais maintenant, M. Cussons, le secrétaire, d'expliquer les autres procédures à suivre et de mettre en déliberations le premier point à l'agenda.

29 MR. CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

30 Good morning, everyone. Bonjour toutes le monde.

31 Just a couple of preliminary matters.

32 I would like to mention that the CRTC examination room is located on the first floor of the hotel in the Sir John A. MacDonald Room.

33 Secondly, I would just like to mention that we have a number of applications on this hearing that were deemed to be non-appearing and the Panel will be rendering decisions on those applications in due course.

34 I would just like to elaborate slightly on the three phases that we will be going through today considering the WTM application.

35 For Phase I, the applicant is allowed 20 minutes maximum for the presentation, including audio-visual or other material. Normally questions by the Panel will follow and, if necessary, by counsel.

36 During Phase II, each appearing intervenor is given 10 minutes for his or her presentation. Again, questions by Members of the CRTC Panel may follow, if necessary.

37 Finally, we invite the applicant to return and they are given an additional 10 minutes to reply to any and all interventions. Again, questions may follow that process.

38 So I would now like to introduce the application by World Television Network/Le Réseau Télémonde Inc., and I would like to invite the World Television team to introduce its members and make its presentation.

39 Thank you.


40 MS DRESHER: Good morning, Madam Chair, Members of the Commission and Commission staff. My name is Honey Dresher and I am the Chair of the Board of Directors of World Télémonde. Before starting our presentation I would like to present the members of our team.

41 To your extreme right is Marie-Josée Beaudoin-Swift, Vice-President Programming French Service. She has operated her own communications company and has also produced award-winning TV programs for TVA and Radio-Canada.

42 Next is Dan Iannuzzi, President and Executive Producer. Dan has been an entrepreneur and executive in multicultural media for most of his life, the founder of Multilingual Television, Channel 47, and a recipient of the EXPO '86 Communications Award and the Order of Canada.

43 On my right is Kerry Johnston, Senior Vice-President and COO. For many years, Kerry was the senior official responsible for federal multiculturalism policy. A former CEO of the YMCA in Montreal, Kerry has been a major architect and driver of world television over the past decade.

44 Next is Michael McHale, Vice-President, Programming, English Service. Michael has over 15 years in the international entertainment industry as well as in new media. He is President and Co-founder of MediaTribe.

45 In the second row, from your right, is Howard Bernstein, Vice-President, Information Programming. Howard was head of news at both Global and CTV for a number of years and he is presently an independent television producer.

46 To his right is Lori Abittan, Chief Financial Officer. Lori has been with Multimedia WTM, our parent company, for over 15 years.

47 Next is Bill Brooks, Vice-President, Marketing and Promotion. Bill has over 20 years experience in this field and is founder of the PEM Group.

48 Next to Bill is Eddy Lelievre, Director of Advertising Sales. Eddy has spent the last 20 years in multicultural radio and television advertising sales.

49 And Doreen Iannuzzi, Director of Communications and Hearing Co-ordinator. She is a graduate in Administration and Information Systems with 15 years experience in marketing and corporate communications.

50 At the side table, from your left, is Paul Winn, our new Director from western Canada and a member of our Advisory Committee. Paul is a lawyer in Vancouver and a former Member of the B.C. Human Rights Commission.

51 Next to Paul is the Honourable Robert Wong, Chair of our Executive/Finance Committee. He is a former Ontario Minister of Energy and Minister Responsible for Multiculturalism. Currently, he is Chairman of the Glen Ardith-Frazier Corporation.

52 Next to him is our legal counsel, Greg Kane, of Stikeman Elliott in Ottawa.

53 And last, but not least, Conrad Winn, of Compas Inc., the Ottawa firm responsible for our research.

54 There are other members of our board and application team present here today and, in particular, I would like to identify Mr. Charles Orenstein, our Honorary Chair of the Orenstein Capital Group.

55 I also regret that three members of our team, Gail Valaskakis, who is Chair of our Advisory Committee; the Honourable Jim Fleming, Director; as well as Emilio Mascia, Board Member from Ontario unfortunately couldn't make it today.

56 I wish to sincerely thank them and the intervenors present here today for taking the time to come to Kingston.

57 Now, Madam Chair, we would like to commence our presentation.

58 Aujourd'hui, Madame la Présidente, nous sommes reunis içi à Kingston afin de vous présenter notre demande pour un nouveau réseau national qui fournira deux nouveaux canaux de télévision aux Canadiens, l'un en anglais, l'autre en français. On propose de vous démontrer:

59 - Le vide qui existe actuellement dans notre système de radiodiffusion et la façon dont on propose de le combler.

60 - Le désir montré à maintes reprises par les Canadiens à avoir accès à la meilleure programmation du monde entier et une nouvelle perspective sur le Canada.

61 - La diversité que World Télémonde apportera au système de radiodiffusion canadien ainsi que sa contribution significative à l'expression canadienne. Et enfin,

62 - Notre plan d'affaires qui est basé sur une fondation stable et bien financée.

63 MR. IANNUZZI: Thank you, Honey.

64 Madam Chair, Commissioners all, World Télémonde is proposing a unique and innovative broadcasting service, one that is "powerful and revolutionary" according to the McLuhan Program at the University of Toronto. Powerful and revolutionary because in the exciting international context in which we find ourselves, World Télémonde will provide a new and distinctive Canadian way of creating television within the "global village".

65 High quality television and film programming is created every day in all regions of the world, yet the vast majority of Canadians only see programming from our neighbour to the south and miss out on 94 per cent of the television produced in the world today.

66 World Télémonde will be a unique national service with the best of the world's programming broadcast in their original languages, subtitled in English and French, using state-of-the-art technology.

67 We plan to provide two channels, one in English, the other in French. As such, this entertaining, informative and insightful programming will be accessible to all Canadians.

68 We will have quality programming from all regions of the world. To ensure this diversity we are making two key commitments here today:

69 First, all of our foreign programming will be broadcast in the original language of production and not more than 15 per cent in any one language.

70 Second, a maximum of 5 per cent of our programming will come from the United States of America.

71 Madam Chair, before we go any further we would like to pause for a moment and show you a brief video that reflects the face of the World Télémonde service.

--- Video presentation / Présentation vidéo

72 MR. JOHNSTON: Madam Chair, we too are ready. We are ready now. There can be little doubt that Shana Howson, a University of Toronto student, is also ready. She wrote:

"We should step up and set the standard for international television ... World Télémonde is obviously on the cutting edge of realistic and relevant media, in its attempt to reflect the increasingly diverse composition of our nation."

73 Commissioners, our society has a new mainstream, a mainstream of Canadians from all origins and generations that is not merely comfortable with Canada's diversity, but is looking for increased access to our global connections. Their need is not being met in today's broadcasting landscape.

74 To access Indian, Greek, Spanish or Chinese programming now, one needs to pay a premium or catch islands of them across conventional broadcasting, but you would still not see world class Portuguese, Brazilian, Caribbean or Hungarian programs and understand them. With World Télémonde, one could.

75 For some, the new mainstream and its continuing state of flux means that Canada has no clear, single culture of its own. But most Canadians accept that in fact this is the exciting Canadian asset, a culture in a constant state of evolution as it adapts to new internal and external realities. Accessibility and the sharing of links around the globe must become as normal as the variety of foods on our tables.

76 World Télémonde's Canadian programming takes this transformation as its point of departure and tells the stories that reflect a shared history and the contemporary dynamics of our society.

77 Public demand has been consistent. For more than a decade Canadian viewers have indicated their interest in the program format proposed by World Télémonde. A 1987 study commissioned by the CRTC asked respondents whether they would support such a service:

"...which would present programs from a variety of cultural communities sometimes in English and sometimes in other languages".

78 Seventy-one per cent indicated support.

79 In 1996 Compas was asked by World Télémonde to provide an analysis of the demand studies we had commissioned since 1986.

80 Their analysis indicates:

81 - continuing growth in demand for the service;

82 - consistent interest and demand in every region of this country;

83 - access to international programming is a high priority for Canadians; and

84 - strong interest when a monthly subscription fee of 30 to 38 cents was mentioned.

85 A recent retest confirms their analysis. These results demonstrate a very high interest in World Télémonde. They indicate a public demand that has remained unsatisfied despite the introduction of many new specialty services.

86 MR. BERNSTEIN: Madam Chair, as a journalist who has covered the world experience tells me Canadian viewers are missing important international stories. World Télémonde has two programs to prove our special commitment to integrating Canada and the world.

87 "World Journal" is our flagship. It is an exciting concept in news analysis. The program will gather reports in their original languages and subtitle them for Canadians. Each story will be made up of reports that will come from at least two, usually three countries. This is an opportunity for Canadians to understand the way major news events are perceived in their countries of origin, the countries affected by the stories and third countries whose views are seldom heard. Finally, true balance in news, new perspectives and an opportunity for real understanding.

88 "In Studio", Canadians who bridge the knowledge gap between Canada and the countries involved will debate the issues.

89 "World Journal" will bring new faces and voices to Canadians starved for international news.

90 "Eye on Canada" is a documentary strand that will license 13 new Canadian documentaries in its first year. We will look for stories that take Canadians to other countries or stories about the diversity that makes Canada unique. This strand will give priority to filmmakers who have a hard time finding airtime for their ideas on traditional networks.

91 MR. McHALE: Madam Chair, World Télémonde is Canadian, international and interactive, a channel that brings the world's events, issues and cultures to a Canadian television audience that is ready!

92 As stated earlier, all of our world programming will be broadcast in the original language of production. The bridge that ensures access to all viewers will be digital, colour-coded subtitles.

93 World Télémonde will provide Canadian viewers with perspectives, insights and entertainment that currently have little or no exposure on Canadian television.

94 Programs such as "The Bus" from the Netherlands; from Ethiopia, "Blood is Not Fresh Water"; from the Czech Republic, "Divided We Fall"; from Israel, "Ahron Cohen's Debt"; from Brazil, "Confidences from the River of Deaths"; and the Japanese production of "Manhole Children" of Mongolia. These are just a few of the quality and award-winning programs previously unavailable to Canadians.

95 During the first seven years we will spend close to $36 million on fresh, new and exciting, entertaining, international programming, programming that will add exponentially to the diversity in our broadcasting universe.

96 But Télémonde is much more than international programming. We will spend $75 million, or 33 per cent of gross revenues, on Canadian programming during the licence period. World Télémonde will make a significant and positive contribution to the Canadian broadcast system.

97 In addition to our information and public affairs programming, we will create original series. Three examples, "Cabaret", an interactive showcase for emerging Canadian artists. This will help create and nurture a Canadian "star system", and "Cabaret" will be distributed on-air in Canada and streamed worldwide via the Internet.

98 Second, "Day and Night", a series that chronicles the daily lives of people in urban and rural centres, bringing a new understanding of Canada's cultural diversity.

99 Third, "Debut", which will profile emerging Canadian directors and their films. We will sponsor awards with major film and television schools across Canada and we will broadcast the winning entries.

100 We will also ensure a substantial contribution to the independent program production industry:

101 - We will spend over $38 million in the commissioning and acquisition of Canadian independent programs over seven years. The result, over 45 per cent of our Canadian programming will be from the independent sector.

102 - World Télémonde will contribute to the next generation of producers in Canada by spending $1 million on script development during the same period.

103 Further, we expect that our viewers will do more than passively watch television. They will get what they want and demand: Interaction that is meaningful. World Télémonde Interactive will extend our on-air brand worldwide.

104 Mme BEAUDOIN-SWIFT: Madame la Présidente, World Télémonde offrira un service national de programmation française, qui comblera une lacune importante dans les services existants dans la radiodiffusion canadienne.

105 Parallèle à sa consoeur anglophone, le service français présentera une programmation de grande envergure provenant du Canada et de l'internationale. Nous rendrons cette programmation internationale accessible aux francophones par l'entremise du sous-titrage français. De plus, le service réfletera les réalités canadiennes y comprise notre dualité linguistique.

106 Notre présence à Montréal et à Ottawa-Hull nous donnera une fenêtre sur les opinions et perspectives des francophones qui alimentera non seulement le service français mais le service anglais également.

107 Cette présence nous permettra d'établir des relations soutenues avec les producteurs indépendants et le talent de ces villes. On poursuivra par ailleurs les contacts, déjà établis, avec les minorités francophones hors Québec.

108 World Télémonde montera sur pied avec les producteurs indépendants, le financement de projets en combinant notre licence nationale avec des licences d'autres télédiffuseurs.

109 World Télémonde s'engage à allouer un minimum de 20 pour cent de son budget de productions canadiennes à la programmation française. Ainsi, World Télémonde sera une nouvelle source de fonds pour les producteurs indépendants d'expression française.

110 World Télémonde fournira une vitrine nationale pour leurs nouvelles productions et la possibilité d'exposer leurs succès du passé à un nouvel auditoire national.

111 Mme DRESHER: La majeure partie de ma carrière professionnelle fut passée à Montréal, à travailler de pair avec les francophones, les anglophones et de plus en plus avec les allophones qui vivent tous dans nos langues officielles. Tous m'ont exprimé le désir de mieux comprendre leurs concitoyens d'origines différentes. Les Canadiens ont démontré, eux aussi, de l'intérêt pour les produits culturels de toutes les régions du monde. Je suis convaincu que notre équipe aura accès à toutes les ressources financières nécessaires pour être viable.

112 MR. IANNUZZI: Madam Chair, World Télémonde is founded on a strong financial underpinning and a conservative business plan.

113 We have documented financial resources of over $5.7 million in equity. We are particularly pleased by our association with the Orenstein Capital Group, a Canadian venture capital company. Furthermore, we have negotiated an operating line of credit of half a million dollars with the National Bank of Canada. And, further, we are able to forgo much of the capital costs of launching the two channels through a $3 million equipment leasing agreement.

114 Our business plan is realistic and attainable, based on carriage on the basic service at a rate of 30 cents per subscriber, per month. What is comforting to us, Madam Chair, is the continued growth in the subscriber universe that will generate even higher subscriber revenues than we projected, resulting in more funds for Canadian quality programming.

115 Our Year 1 projected advertising revenues are also doable. Advertising revenues of $2.4 million in Year 1, represent less than 40 cents per subscriber per year. This average advertising revenue per subscriber is similar to that attained by channels launched in 1998 on the third tier.

116 Commissioners, these are times of great challenge; times of great promise; times that need courage and innovation. World Télémonde has both.

117 Yes, we are ready, willing and able to meet this challenge. With dual status carriage, our addition to the national broadcasting system will do much to enable this system to respond to these times of challenge and great promise.

118 Thank you.

119 MS DRESHER: In conclusion, Madam Chair and Members of the Commission, licensing World Télémonde is very much in the public interest and meets the objectives of the Broadcasting Act for the following reasons:

120 - World Télémonde will fill the large void in the Canadian broadcasting system by providing the world's best international television programming;

121 - Our service will fill a growing demand for this kind of television, from a broad cross-section of the Canadian population;

122 - We will provide for access to a wide variety of international issues and events as well as producers;

123 - We will provide different perspectives on the world and a new approach to Canadian events and issues;

124 - World Télémonde will make a significant contribution to Canadian programming and talent. We will allocate more than $75 million over the course of the license, including over $38 million in programming to the independent production sector.

125 In conclusion, World Télémonde has the financing, the realistic and attainable business plan and the experienced and committed team that will ensure that the service meets the objectives of the Broadcasting Act and all the commitments made to you today.

126 Madam Chair, Members of the Panel, thank you for your attention and we are ready to reply to your questions.

127 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Dresher and your colleagues, and good morning, Mr. Iannuzzi.

128 MR. IANNUZZI: Good morning, Madam.

129 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning to you all, of course.

130 I will have a number of questions divided into some clarification and confirmation about ownership, some financial questions and some carriage questions and, of course, a number of programming questions. I will try, when we do the programming questions, to divide it into sections so that we can put an organized grid over our exchanges.

131 Then some questions on demand. Of course, this may not be completely discrete, but we will try to keep it as much so as possible in order to have a thorough hearing.

132 First, questions on ownership.

133 I would like you to confirm for the record the ownership of the applicant company. I will refer to it as WTM, is that okay?

134 MR. IANNUZZI: Right.

135 THE CHAIRPERSON: I will use, to do that, funding founders and investors and the composition of the company which was filed as at September 30, 1997. This would confirm that there would be 8,750,000 shares in the company?

136 MR. IANNUZZI: Yes, Madam Chair.

137 The actual breakdown, if I could read it into the record, is Multimedia WTM Corporation, 3.4 million shares for a total percentage of 38.85; the Management Group, most of which you see here today, represents 850,000 shares, for 9.71 per cent; Q&A Communications, 250,000 shares, 2.86 per cent; Idlewilde Enterprises, 2.86 per cent for 250,000 shares; and the Orenstein Capital Group, 4 million shares, for a total of 45.72 per cent, making that 100 per cent and 8.750 million common shares.

138 THE CHAIRPERSON: Now, with regard to Orenstein, is the investor Mr. Orenstein or the Orenstein Capital Group? I notice you mentioned the Orenstein Capital Group this morning, but the undertaking by Orenstein was in Mr. Orenstein's name.

139 MR. IANNUZZI: That's correct. It's Mr. Orenstein has made that --

140 THE CHAIRPERSON: In his personal --

141 MR. IANNUZZI: -- in his personal capacity at this time, yes.

142 THE CHAIRPERSON: And obviously the undertakings that were supplied to the Commission date back to 1997 about the ability and willingness of the shareholders to invest in the manner that you have outlined. What assurances can you give us that these financial undertakings and the ability to invest are still valid?

143 MR. IANNUZZI: Well, once the notice of the public hearing was here, I personally confirmed with each of these parties to say that if I was asked would I be able to be in a position to put on the record that they were still valid today, as they were at the time filed, and the answers were positive.

144 THE CHAIRPERSON: Now, a letter which was dated 7 March 1997 indicated that the payment of shares for the Management Group, I believe --

145 MR. IANNUZZI: Correct.

146 THE CHAIRPERSON: -- was to be in kind?

147 MR. IANNUZZI: That's correct. And it is reflected in our projections that this would replace itself once the licence was awarded that this would be part of the "sweat equity", as we might call it.

148 THE CHAIRPERSON: And is the Management Group still as was indicated in the document which was as of December 1996?

149 MR. IANNUZZI: Yes.

150 THE CHAIRPERSON: So that would be Mr. Johnston, Klinkhammer, Miller, McHale Holding, Bernstein, Appleby, Thompson, Dresher?

151 MR. IANNUZZI: Yes, m'hm.

152 THE CHAIRPERSON: That is still the same?

153 MR. IANNUZZI: No, there is one substitution there for Mr. Miller.


155 MR. IANNUZZI: We have Eddy Lelievre.


157 MR. IANNUZZI: Eddy Lelievre.

158 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. But the same arrangement --

159 MR. IANNUZZI: Mr. Klinkhammer is no longer -- I'm sorry about that.

160 THE CHAIRPERSON: Is no longer there?

161 MR. IANNUZZI: That's correct.

162 THE CHAIRPERSON: But the arrangement is the same?

163 MR. IANNUZZI: The arrangement is the same and the total amount of shares that were set aside for the Management Group are still there. That is 850,000 shares.

164 THE CHAIRPERSON: In the same amount. For a 9.71 per cent?

165 MR. IANNUZZI: For a 9.71, yes, percentage of the corporation.

166 THE CHAIRPERSON: The debt financing proposed is in the amount of $3 million?

167 MR. IANNUZZI: That's correct.

168 THE CHAIRPERSON: And there is a letter from Newport Capital that would be for the capital lease.

169 MR. IANNUZZI: For the capital leasing, yes.

170 THE CHAIRPERSON: That is still valid?

171 MR. IANNUZZI: That still is. We also have, supporting that as well, our new banker, The National Bank of Canada, and they are willing to do the same and have submitted a letter to that end. So we have double the coverage on the same lease.

172 THE CHAIRPERSON: On the document that we were using, or I think we were using as at 30 September 1997 to give a breakdown of the shareholding, it shows a Canada Trust line of credit of half a million dollars. That is still --

173 MR. IANNUZZI: Yes. That has been replaced by a bank letter from, as I said, our new banker, The National Bank of Canada, for the same amount on the same terms and conditions.

174 THE CHAIRPERSON: And exactly the same terms.

175 MR. IANNUZZI: Yes.

176 THE CHAIRPERSON: Is there anything else with regard to ownership that you would like to add?

177 MR. IANNUZZI: Well, there is the question that the ownership and the control block --

178 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I will get into that.

179 MR. IANNUZZI: I'm sorry, okay.

180 THE CHAIRPERSON: I meant just the actual --

181 MR. IANNUZZI: Oh, yes. No, no.

182 THE CHAIRPERSON: -- ownership of the company.

183 MR. IANNUZZI: No. There are no other shareholders present or intended.

184 THE CHAIRPERSON: Now, control. You indicated in the schedule for control to the Commission earlier that control would be in the hands of the board, a board of 15 members and an executive committee of five. But in the March 2nd, 2000 Schedule 3 indicating the directors we only have eight directors. So what is your intention in that regard.

185 MR. IANNUZZI: The intention is this, Madam Chair, that first of all the control of the corporation would rest in our parent company, Multimedia WTM Corporation, by virtue of a pooling agreement as between Multimedia WTM Corporation, the Management Group, Q&A Communications and Idlewilde, that jointly the control then would rest with that particular group.

186 The size of the board as filed on March 2nd showed only eight members at that time and it is our intention to add three members from various regions in Canada.

187 We presently have two members, one representing British Columbia, or the west, and one Ontario on our board, namely Mr. Marchant and Mr. Paul Winn, who is here replacing Val Rommaly that was on our earlier board representing western Canada, but he was appointed a judge and we had to replace him last month.

188 So the board, then, represents eight and we intend to put three more and sort of keep it at a level of 11 for the time being, being more manageable.

189 THE CHAIRPERSON: Now, are you intending any shareholder agreement or any agreement as between any of these members or all of them?

190 MR. IANNUZZI: No. We may intend, after the licence is awarded, to have a working shareholder's agreement which we would submit to the Commission at that time, but presently all we have between the controlling shareholders, if you want to call it, is the pooling agreement, a copy of which I could have left behind here for the Commission.

191 THE CHAIRPERSON: What will this agreement actually do with regard to control?

192 MR. IANNUZZI: The agreement talks about voting, that the management share will vote with the WTM Corporation, Multimedia WTM.

193 THE CHAIRPERSON: So that would be for a total of 48.56 per cent of the voting shares?

194 MR. IANNUZZI: No, as a total of 54.3, because the entire block will"be all the shares --

195 THE CHAIRPERSON: How do you arrive at that number?

196 MR. IANNUZZI: I'm sorry?

197 THE CHAIRPERSON: How do you arrive at the 54.3?

198 MR. IANNUZZI: I have a graph here for you, if you wish. The 38.85 --


200 MR. IANNUZZI: -- plus 9.71 --


202 MR. IANNUZZI: -- plus 2.86, plus 2.86.

203 THE CHAIRPERSON: Oh, the Idlewilde Enterprises --

204 MR. IANNUZZI: That's right.

205 THE CHAIRPERSON: -- and Q&A would be added.

206 MR. IANNUZZI: That's correct.

207 THE CHAIRPERSON: When you said the Management Group --

208 MR. IANNUZZI: I'm sorry.

209 THE CHAIRPERSON: -- I was only adding 9.71.

210 So Mr. Orenstein, with his 45.7, would not be a participant in that group?

211 MR. IANNUZZI: No, it would be pro rata membership on the board.

212 THE CHAIRPERSON: But not part of the voting agreement?

213 MR. IANNUZZI: No. No.

214 VHE CHAIRPERSON: So, in your view, where would control lie?

215 MR. IANNUZZI: Control would lie with Multimedia WTM Corporation.

216 THE CHAIRPERSON: Through this agreement.

217 MR. IANNUZZI: Through this pooling agreement.

218 THE CHAIRPERSON: Can you outline to me what main clause would actually achieve that?

219 MR. IANNUZZI: One of the "Whereas" is probably the best way to go:

"Whereas the shareholder..."

220 And in this case here the --

221 THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, maybe not the best way to go.

222 MR. IANNUZZI: No, no, but I'm saying --

223 THE CHAIRPERSON: But just explain to me --

224 MR. IANNUZZI: No, here it is.

225 THE CHAIRPERSON: -- what the intention is.


"Whereas the shareholder, as partial consideration for the granting of the option, has agreed to vote the shares jointly with Multimedia with respect to any matter calling for the exercise of shareholder voting rights." (As read)

227 THE CHAIRPERSON: So control would rest with you then?

228 MR. IANNUZZI: That's correct.

229 THE CHAIRPERSON: Because they are agreeing to agree with you.

230 MR. IANNUZZI: That's correct.

231 THE CHAIRPERSON: And you are satisfied with the Commission deciding that control rests with you pursuant to that agreement?

232 MR. IANNUZZI: Yes.

233 THE CHAIRPERSON: Is that agreement on the file at all?

234 MR. IANNUZZI: Pardon? No, I have a copy here.

235 THE CHAIRPERSON: Is that agreement on the file at all?

236 MR. IANNUZZI: We are willing to file that with the Commission, yes.

237 THE CHAIRPERSON: Copies should be made available to intervenors as well.

238 MR. IANNUZZI: We have --

239 THE CHAIRPERSON: So give the Secretary sufficient copies.

240 MR. IANNUZZI: Yes.

--- Pause / Pause

241 THE CHAIRPERSON: It wasn't clear, Mr. Iannuzzi --

242 MR. KANE: Excuse me, Madam Chair, perhaps I could just clarify for the benefit of the intervenors that the pooling agreement is with a number of different parties. It is the same for each individual that executes the agreement. So what we would propose to do is file the agreement, or we could file one example of an executed copy of the agreement, just to ensure that people know that it is the same agreement for every party that has entered into it.

243 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. My point is that it wasn't clear from the application as we have it, with the 8.56 per cent as a combined Multimedia and Management Group, who was in control with no agreement of any sort. So that remained an unanswered question, which you are now answering by saying there is a voting trust, so to speak.

244 MR. KANE: That's correct.

245 THE CHAIRPERSON: Is that correct?

246 MR. KANE: That's correct.

247 THE CHAIRPERSON: Which will ensure that Mr. Iannuzzi is in control. So that information should be supplied to the Secretary in sufficient copies for intervenors to be able to have access to that.

248 Now, your revenues are based on a basic fee of 30 cents per month in English Canada and 15 cents per month for the English feed in French Canada for the first two years, after which there will be a French feed at 30 cents per month on basic in French Canada.

249 You indicate in your application that the English feed would continue to be available in Quebec on a discretionary tier, so that then you would have the English feed continuing at 15 cents for cable operators in Quebec and a French feed on basic at 30 cents. Have you factored in some revenues derived from that continued distribution of the English feed in your revenues?

250 MR. IANNUZZI: Yes, we have, and I would like to --

251 MS DRESHER: Michael McHale.

252 MR. McHALE: Madam Chair, the model we filed assumes you are correct. In Year 3 we would get 30 cents, or $3.60 a year from the English -- from the French service in Quebec. Our plan calls for the English-language service at that date to be provided free to cable operators.

253 THE CHAIRPERSON: The English feed would be provided free?

254 MR. McHALE: After a year,

255 THE CHAIRPERSON: So there is no need to factor in --

256 MR. McHALE: There are no revenues

257 THE CHAIRPERSON: So that when I look at Year 3, what I can read correctly is it will be $3.60 per subscriber --

258 MR. McHALE: Per subscriber.

259 THE CHAIRPERSON: -- in Quebec and in English Canada --

260 MR. McHALE: Right.

261 THE CHAIRPERSON: -- and no revenues will be received from the English feed in Quebec.

262 MR. McHALE: Madam Chair, that also mirrors the arrangement we envision outside of Quebec for the French-language service, it will be provided free to cable and DTH operators.

263 THE CHAIRPERSON: You will have two feeds. I suppose the eastern feed will have to continue anyway to serve English eastern Canada.

264 MR. McHALE: Correct.

265 THE CHAIRPERSON: So your costs will be -- you will be able to supply it for free because your costs will be there anyway.

266 MR. McHALE: Yes, correct.

267 THE CHAIRPERSON: Although I suppose -- it's all brought in together, all the expenses?

268 MR. McHALE: We have additional expenses in Year 3 to cover the cost of launching.

269 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I see that. But as of Year 3 what I see in your projections combines the costs for French and English.

270 MR. McHALE: Correct.

271 THE CHAIRPERSON: It makes me curious about your comment in your presentation this morning that 20 per cent of the budget would be devoted to French service -- to the Francophone:

"...World Télémonde s'engage àllouer a minimum de 20 pour cent du son budget de productions canadiennes...".

272 MR. McHALE: To clarify that, what -- over the course of -- excuse me.

273 THE CHAIRPERSON: The reason for my question is, I would have thought that the French service is going to be a complete service, therefore it is bizarre, isn't it, to say that it will be 20 per cent of Canadian production of the budget?

274 MR. McHALE: Going back to Dan Iannuzzi's description, it's one service to two channels. Both channels are identical with subtitling in the English language for English -- for the French market, and subtitling in the French language for the French market.

275 We will have some minor scheduling changes to reflect the differences in the market, but overall the two channels are identical in programming.

276 What we are envisioning where that 20 per cent came from is that over the seven year licence period approximately 20 per cent of revenues will originate in the Quebec market and it is our plan from day one, not Year 3, that 20 per cent of the programming originate with Francophone producers. That is a minimum amount.

277 THE CHAIRPERSON: So you are speaking about independent production here as opposed to in-house production?

278 MR. McHALE: Yes.

279 THE CHAIRPERSON: Ah, because it just said "productions canadiennes". I thought if it were in-house production as well it didn't make much sense, because I would expect that the Canadian part -- I suppose you will amortize the world programming part over a broader base, but the Canadian part will be duplicated once you start a French feed.

280 MR. McHALE: Correct.

281 MR. IANNUZZI: Madam Chair, if I may add, all through our discussions this morning I think it will be imperative that we maintain the fact that what we are asking for here is one mandate, one licence with two services, one English and one French. From the question of allocating, we are allocating this as a business enterprise would, not on any other particular basis, so that --

282 THE CHAIRPERSON: No, but, Mr. Iannuzzi, my interest is of course -- or our interest at the Commission is to try to see what the services will be like, and that is why. But I understanding it if is production.

283 But surely you understand the question that the cost of having an identical service on the Canadian side of the costs it should be not dissimilar to on the English side --

284 MS DRESHER: Mrs. Wylie, if I may --

285 THE CHAIRPERSON: -- of the Canadian part.

286 MS DRESHER: -- I would just like to clarify that the 20 per cent of the budget, the programming budget that we are talking about, will be allocated to production in the French-language Canadian French-language production anywhere in Canada, not exclusively in Quebec. I imagine that for the most part it will be allocated to Quebec, but it is throughout Canada.

287 THE CHAIRPERSON: With the regard to the cost of programming the non-world part of the French feed compared to the English feed, how do you envisage that? I know there is some information --

288 MR. IANNUZZI: If I may, again --

289 THE CHAIRPERSON: -- which is what is the source of my question. I understand the independent production part.

290 MR. IANNUZZI: If I may, Madam Chair, the key word here is that they are identical, so that a program produced in the French language in our Canadian production will be seen on the English service with English subtitles, and the English programming produced will also be seen on the French-language channel with English audio and French subtitles.

291 This is a bit of a novelty here in Canada on an exclusive basis, but that is one of the services that we are offering, that those who speak in French will be heard in French. For the great number of bilingual people I think this is a plus.

292 THE CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying --

293 MR. IANNUZZI: And then there is the cross-fertilization as between the language.

294 THE CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying, then, that every minute of the service will be subtitled, either from Italian to English to French and the Canadian programming in English will be subtitled in French and vice versa?

295 MR. IANNUZZI: Yes, all our world programming will.

296 THE CHAIRPERSON: So every minute will be subtitled?

297 MR. IANNUZZI: Yes, as is the CSBS idea now.

298 MS DRESHER: No, I'm sorry, that's not true. If you are on the English service and you are showing English programming --

299 MR. IANNUZZI: Oh no, I'm sorry.

300 MS DRESHER: -- it won't be subtitled.

301 MR. IANNUZZI: No, I'm sorry.

302 MS DRESHER: If you are on the French service and you are showing French programming or programming of French-language origin, it will be shown unsubtitled. But anything else, the cross-pollination between the two services, as well as world programming, will be subtitled in either English or French.

303 THE CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry, but I'm still not clear. Give me an example for, for example, the "World Regional Journal", which is a Canadian production using footage and audio from various parts of the world.

304 MS DRESHER: Howard Bernstein.

305 MR. BERNSTEIN: Yes. The way this will be done is, we will gather stories from around the world, and when we gather those stories they will be subtitled in English for the English service and in French for the French service. The discussion that goes on afterwards could take place in either English or French. If it takes place in English, it will be subtitled in French only on the French service, not on the English service. If the discussion takes place in French, it will be subtitled in English only on the English service.

306 THE CHAIRPERSON: Let's take another example. "Cabaret" for example.

307 MR. McHALE: Again we will subtitle. If the performer is not English or French, both services will receive a subtitle in English or French for the appropriate service, and if, for example a comedy routine is in the English language, on the French service French subtitles would appear.

308 THE CHAIRPERSON: But isn't "Cabaret" a program where there will be interviews, in Toronto let's say, of --

309 MR. McHALE: "Cabaret" is more of performance.

310 THE CHAIRPERSON: Of performance.

311 MR. McHALE: Performance. For example, the kind of show you are talking about "Ramble", where our host will travel across Canada going into various communities, and if he is in Winnipeg in a French-speaking community it will be subtitled in English on the English service and the French service, of course, will require no subtitles. However, if he is on College Street interviewing people in English, it will be subtitled in French on the French-language service. And if he is interviewing in neither English nor French, it will be subtitled on both services.

312 What is unique about the service is that both audiences in Canada, English speaking and French speaking, would have a shared programming experience. This is one of the key features of our application and what makes it so unique.

313 THE CHAIRPERSON: On what basis have you determined the number of basic subscribers to calculate your revenues? You speak of 80 per cent penetration. Is it based on what are now Class 1, Class 2, but not Class 3? Would you have dual status viz-à-viz all the services?

314 Is the 80 per cent based on the fact that the small cable services were not taken into consideration or is it not 100 per cent because you may agree to be carried on discretionary on some services? How did you arrive at 80 per cent?

315 MR. McHALE: The first part of that question, the 80 per cent, that was based on Class 1 licences. It was the model that we used when we prepared the application a number of years ago.

316 As to the question of what type of carriage we are looking for, I will look to our Chairperson, Honey Dresher.

317 THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, I don't necessarily want to speak about the issue of carriage at the moment. I just want to know how you arrived at your revenues to project your -- to make up your financial projections.

318 MR. McHALE: Being conservative, we took 80 per cent as being the number of subscribers on Class 1 services at that time.

319 THE CHAIRPERSON: So that represents 80 per cent of Class 1?

320 MR. McHALE: Whom we applied, yes.

321 THE CHAIRPERSON: We can discuss carriage later as to whether you are also wanting dual status for Class 2, that is down to less than 2,000 subscribers.

322 MR. McHALE: Right. At the time we prepared the projections we just included Class 1.

323 THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, without going into the actual philosophical discussion of carriage, what is it that you would factor into your projected revenue stream? Class 1 and Class 2?

324 MR. IANNUZZI: Madam Chair, yes. All of the 2,000 and under systems, as far as we were concerned when we made our calculation, is that we were then and we are now offering that service free to all of those services under the -- in fact under the 6,000.

325 THE CHAIRPERSON: And it would be discretionary?

326 MR. IANNUZZI: Discretionary to them.

327 THE CHAIRPERSON: And you would expect, then, dual status on all Class 2 and Class 3 that is above 2,000?

328 MR. IANNUZZI: Correct.

329 THE CHAIRPERSON: And the 80 per cent, then, is just to be conservative? Because if it were 100 per cent you would find your expected revenues much higher.

330 MR. IANNUZZI: Much higher.

331 The fact is, too, that not all cable operators are alike, for those who know them. The point is that they all come on slightly at different times for different reasons and experience has shown us that if you get 80 per cent on day one, that's about the average.

332 THE CHAIRPERSON: And I notice as well that your DTH revenue, the subscriber count is very low, much lower than actually exists. It's 30,000 in Year 1, rising to -- is that right -- to 40,000, yes, in Year 7. So that would -- I think the calculation, if you had the actual number, which is more like 800,000, would amount to maybe 2.5 million.

333 MR. McHALE: Yes, the growth and DTH.

334 THE CHAIRPERSON: So the two together could be quite a sum if you managed to get 95 per cent of Class 2 and Class 3, as well as 800,000 DTH.

335 MR. McHALE: Yes.

336 THE CHAIRPERSON: It would make revenues much higher.

337 MR. McHALE: The business model today is even better than when we filed the original business plan.

338 THE CHAIRPERSON: Which leads me to ask how you arrived at the 30 cents. I know your revenues also include advertising, but how did you arrive at the 30 cents? Did you use benchmarks of some sort of profitability? How did you calculate a 30 cent subscribed tariff?

339 MR. McHALE: We arrived at 30 cents, it was tied into our market demand studies which indicated that Canadians were interested in paying 38 cents for our service and we discounted it back to what we would receive from carriers.

340 We felt that 30 cents was a reasonable fee to ask subscribers to pay on an annual basis. It is less than one round trip on the Toronto transit system. Our market research proves that this is a number that Canadian viewers are prepared to live with. It also made our business model viable.

341 THE CHAIRPERSON: Now, if your business model proved conservative -- I already found you a few million dollars this morning -- would you simply say, "Well, people are prepared to pay 30 cents, so 30 cents it will be", or would it have an effect on the tariff?

342 MR. IANNUZZI: The question there is not so much the rate was established because that is what we think the traffic will bear. The fact is, as Michael just mentioned, it ties into the viability of the application, of our business plan, to give us the opportunity to carry this out without having financial strain put on the application even before it started.

343 However, when we look at the fact that three years have gone by and the increase in cable penetration and the boom in DTH, sure, on the first blush does state that that would be considered, simply because we have waited three years, as a windfall. But even if that were there, then we have already matured enough to say that there are a number of things that we would like to do in increasing the quality of the program here and adding something more there and being interactive. All of these things lead us to say that any new found money will be well used within the Canadian programming section.

344 THE CHAIRPERSON: Your national advertising revenues start at $2.4 million in Year 1 and rise to $11.4 million in Year 7. I am aware that there is an increase, a substantial increase in Year 3 because of the addition of the French feed. Even if we were to -- so that is an increase of 79 per cent between Year 1 and Year 7, and, which would probably be fairer, we compare Year 3 with Year 7, because the French feed kicks in, it is a 50 per cent increase.

345 You mentioned this morning that your $2.4 million was a ballpark figure. How did you arrive at the increases, however, and their reasonableness?

346 MS DRESHER: Bill Brooks.

347 MR. BROOKS: Yes.

348 Madam Chair, since we filed our application there has been some changed in the cable industry with the launch of ME TV package. This would obviously mean more competition for us for viewers and advertising dollars. On the other hand, we believe that this is compensated for by the increase in BDU subscribers in cable and DTH. We also believe we will expand the pie by attracting light and medium viewers and new advertisers.

349 Here is how we based our calculations. The demand studies show that 43.6 per cent are "interested" or "very interested" in the service when a price was mentioned. The "very interested to watch" represents 27.1 per cent. To be prudent and recognize the people's intention doesn't always translate to action, we estimate the core audience to be approximately 20 per cent. That 20 per cent is estimated to watch an average of two hours per week. There are approximately 6.6 million English-language households with cable and we project it to reach 80 per cent of those homes, which equals 5.2 million homes or approximately 10 million people.

350 We then have discounted children and youth, which gives us 8 million potential viewers. When you take the 20 per cent of that number, this equals an estimated core audience of 1.6 million who watch approximately two hours per week for a total of 3.2 million hours watched. Plus we factored in non-core audience at an hour per week for 600,000 viewers at one hour per week for a total of 3.8 million hours tuned in Year 1, or approximately 30,000 viewers in each hour.

351 We project a CMP of $4.00 and a modest sell-out rate of 25 per cent in Year 1. When we deduct commissions and fees, this comes to first year total net advertising revenue of 2.4.

352 After the first year this is to increase by the following factors: Slight increase in number of subscribers as penetration increases; increases in sell-out as advertisers understand the services; as well as adding new viewers from French service in Year 3. Therefore, we believe that a 50 per cent increase is obtainable after those three years.

353 THE CHAIRPERSON: While we are speaking of advertising, I was a bit puzzled by the comment on Schedule 24 of your application where you discuss market and cable carriage. You make a statement on number 3 on that schedule on page 1 that, and I quote:

"Audience reach is projected at 80 per cent penetration in the first year of licence, with minimal incremental increases in subsequent years..." (As read)

354 No, I'm sorry, that is not what I wanted to refer to.

355 I wanted to refer to a comment that you made, but I have the wrong spot, I'm sorry. It's a comment that you make in that schedule, but obviously somewhere else, that:

"The characteristics of the viewer profile are such as to attract national advertisers looking for entry in high end demographics." (As read)

356 I am puzzled by that comment in light of the fact that your -- and this is in part to explain your advertising expectations.

357 Given the amount of programming that it will be, albeit subtitled in a language other than French and English, will you not also have less than high end, perhaps new Canadians who are notably -- for those of us like you, Mr. Iannuzzi, who have been involved in ethnic broadcasting -- not always ready for advertisers as a demographic group.

358 Why will it be necessarily high end and therefore able to sustain this type of expectation in advertising?

359 MR. IANNUZZI: Madam Chair, if I may, the market that we are talking about, as Kerry Johnston referred to earlier, we are talking about the new mainstream. The new mainstream is much more cosmopolitan, includes first, second, third and fourth generation people, people whose origins are throughout the world. Their tastes could be considered, for many, many things, high end.

360 Now, the experience in Australia when their service -- which is not unlike the one that we are proposing here today, and over their 20 year experience has shown that the majority of the audience, or the high end of the audience, or the largest part, were, in essence, Canadian born -- I mean Australian born in their case.

361 So that when we are looking at our audience there is a tremendous amount of demand for product that is to be considered in many cases.

362 Now, we are not saying that this is all of the type of advertising. This is not an elite service with gourmet tastes and so on and so forth, but we do see from an advertising standpoint a tremendous amount of international advertising will meet those needs and advertising for products that are household words in many of the, quote, ethnic homes that you have just mentioned, but for us may be considered gourmet but for them is daily staple.

363 So we will have a cross-section. We wanted to highlight the fact that this is not an ethnic service, this is a service aimed at the new mainstream.

364 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. We will discuss later on the programming, what type of service it is, but there is a distinction between the audience that one aims at and the audience that one may get, depending on how one schedules and programs the service.

365 So we will discuss later how blocks of programming in a particular language, albeit with subtitles, may indeed attract some mainstream viewers, but many viewers of that cultural or linguistic group. Anyway, we will discuss that later.

366 But you are satisfied with your national advertising revenues and the increase over the years that the explanation given justifies the growth.

367 Have you done any research or study or explored the extent to which national advertisers are ready to advertise in subtitled programming?

368 MR. IANNUZZI: Madam Chair, I personally had contacts with Mr. Peter Swain of the Media Buying Services as to the approach on this. I have had meetings with Mr. Morris Saffer, who is well known in the industry in international advertising, considered a guru in his own right, as to the viability of our service predicated primarily on national advertising only and, to an extent, a certain amount of national advertising, and in both cases they have assured me that the type of service that we are offering within the Canadian context that there is an amount certainly that we could draw from that is interested in targeting -- we are not selling eyeballs, we are selling a target market, and therefore in our national buys as they would go out and buy some regional spot advertising, we intend to, quote, dip in in the traditional second buy from the national. We are not competing with CBC, CTV or any of the strong internationals.

369 THE CHAIRPERSON: No, because you are going to be a specialty service.

370 MR. IANNUZZI: That's right. No, I'm sorry.

371 THE CHAIRPERSON: Do any of you know of any research done into the effectiveness of the selling of airtime in subtitled programming?

372 MS DRESHER: Michael?

373 MR. McHALE: When preparing our business plan we learned quite a lot from SBS Australia. I don't know if you are familiar, Madam Chair, with --

374 THE CHAIRPERSON: I am now.

375 MR. McHALE: Okay. SBS Australia began broadcasting in 1980. Their objective was to provide the Australian population with opportunities to explore and understand each other's cultures and gain a broader perspective on world events.

376 One of the misconceptions about Australia is that everyone who lives there originated from the United Kingdom. Forty-eight per cent of the Australian population are of now of non-aboriginal, non-British Isles extraction, very similar to Canada.

377 Last year SBS Australian broadcast in 60 different languages, all subtitled. The quality of advertising they are drawing is quite impressive and it is quite a successful business model.

378 Just last December 15th Worldlink TV was licensed in the United States and they are broadcasting international programming with subtitles and they are available on DTH to approximately 15, 16 million viewers. While they cannot run advertising because they are a not-for-profit charter, they are using program sponsorship and attracting dollars to pay for the programming.

379 The question you asked earlier about the quality of the programming and would people watch these programs, just this month alone we have had "Hot Docs" in Toronto, we have had "Input" in Halifax, and the people in Banff are getting ready for the festival in June. Amazing programming from all over the world and, unfortunately for Canadian television viewers, we never see any of that programming on television. The people who attend these festivals are lucky and they -- you know, the quality that they see every year, and they are always amazed, but yet there is no room on the current broadcast system to accommodate these programs.

380 This year, Kerry Johnston reminded me, SBS has been recognized for its amazing achievement in international programming at Banff and receiving an achievement award.

381 THE CHAIRPERSON: But SBS is not a service, a broadcasting service.

382 MR. McHALE: Yes, it is.

383 THE CHAIRPERSON: It actually schedules an entire service?

384 MR. McHALE: Yes.

385 MS DRESHER: SBS, the acronym represents "Specialty Broadcasting Service".

386 THE CHAIRPERSON: But I thought it was mostly providing programming, subtitling. It also broadcasts an entire service provided to the population, schedules it itself?

387 MR. McHALE: Yes. There are approximately 20 affiliates in the network, UHF, VHF, and they have the full schedule.

388 THE CHAIRPERSON: I see. So it would be a full service network as well as a provider, exporter of subtitling and programming?

389 MR. McHALE: Correct.

390 MR. IANNUZZI: I might add, Madam Chair, that because this is State-owned broadcasting, it's a division of the Stradem(ph) Broadcasting Corporation, when they had decided to start this service, which was just about the time Canada was starting the multilingual television service, they had decided that in the interest of service being reached to the benefit of all Australians that that is how that particular service was mandated to be subtitled throughout the service, and they still do that today.

391 THE CHAIRPERSON: With regard to carriage on basic, the Commission has said before that a specialty service that wants dual status should indicate at least that it has had some discussions and some interest by cable distributors or other distributors of programming.

392 There is a letter on file from Vidéotron, but it dates back to 1996, as far as I know. Have you had further discussions with Vidéotron or any other distributor with regard to your plans?

393 MR. IANNUZZI: Madam Chair, if I may, with the question of cable interaction we have, on the times that we have applied or prepared these applications, been in touch with the cable operator. Once we knew that this was going to be heard, I personally wrote each and every individual operator throughout the country, both large and small, and with the occasion of the CCTA Convention in Toronto being held in early April, I asked for an opportunity to meet with the Special Services Committee, or New Services Committee from the CCTA.

394 Unfortunately, that was not possible and I had stated that if it wasn't possible during the convention, because there weren't that many new services there and I presume they didn't have a committee, but I would certainly want to meet with someone either from the association or a major or smaller cable operator. That, unfortunately, did not transpire.

395 We were a sponsor of the CCTA Convention. We did have a booth at the convention. We did put on our service on Internet at the convention, both in English and French, and we met operators there, had a contest -- in fact Vidéotron won a trip to Italy.

396 So the point I'm saying is that that is not why we got the letter. In fact --

397 THE CHAIRPERSON: Tuesday will be Italian from 6:00 to 12:00.

398 MR. IANNUZZI: But in fact I might add that -- I would have to add that that letter is not valid now, not for the reason that they are about to be purchased by someone else, the fact is that time has passed and they are into the digital situation so it would have been unfair for us to try to press them to say "Could you make that letter valid today?" So if it can, it should be struck from the record.

399 MS DRESHER: If I could just interject --

400 THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, I don't have a problem with it being on the record, I just want to see what the situation is in 2000.

401 MR. IANNUZZI: That's right. A swallow doesn't make a spring, if I may.

402 MS DRESHER: If I could just interject for a moment, the letter that they filed with us signed by Diane Legris a few years ago does support our service and quite enthusiastically. However, on the question of dual status, I don't think that issue is addressed in the letter.


404 THE CHAIRPERSON: But I wanted a general confirmation on the record this morning that you have -- and the CCTA is intervening -- have a sense of whether there are large cable operators who have a different view from the CCTA's position.

405 Mme DRESHER: Excusez-moi une minute, Marie-Josée Beaudoin aimerait ajouter une remarque.

406 Mme BEAUDOIN-SWIFT: Madame la Présidente, j'ai parlé personnellement à Mme Legris il y a environ un mois de ça. Mme Legris est très intéressée de nous rencontrer une fois que le CRTC nous donne une licence. L'inquiétude qu'elle avait était interne, c'est-à-dire qu'ils sont en ce moment dans un débat que tout le monde connaît. Alors ils attendent d'avoir de nos nouvelles mais définitivement il y avait un intérêt et elle attendait de nous rencontrer lorsque les auditions seraient terminées.

407 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Mais ma question était plutôt: Est-ce que l'intérêt est lié à la méthode de transport que vous suggérez, de distribution?

408 Mme BEAUDOIN-SWIFT: Et les coûts.

409 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Sur le service de base.

410 Mme BEAUDOIN-SWIFT: Oui, Madame la Présidente.

411 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Avez-vous eu l'occasion de parler aux gens qui ont des permis SRD, DTH, Star Choice, ExpressVu?

412 Mme BEAUDOIN-SWIFT: Pas personnellement, non.


414 THE CHAIRPERSON: You haven't --

415 MR. IANNUZZI: No, we haven't.

416 THE CHAIRPERSON: You haven't discussed with them their willingness to distribute the service on basic.

417 Again, there is an intervention by LOOK, so we will hear from them.

418 MR. IANNUZZI: That's right.

419 THE CHAIRPERSON: But you have, and you may have something to add in reply, so we will leave it at that.

420 Your installations now, or your technical or capital assets.

421 In Schedule 20 you indicate that you had arrangements for renting studio production facilities from the Museum of Civilization, CHOT and Marc Productions, which is in Ottawa.

422 I gather that the arrangement with Radio-Nord, CHOT is no longer part of your proposal?

423 MR. IANNUZZI: That's correct.

424 MS DRESHER: That's correct.

425 THE CHAIRPERSON: With regard to the Museum of Civilization, is that arrangement still in place? Because what I have on the file dates back to discussions in 1993, the result of which -- as well as a letter filed in 1996.

426 Is this still part of your plan and what assurances do you have that they are still interested?

427 Mme DRESHER: Madame la Présidente, je vais tenter de répondre à cette question. Évidement ça fait partie de nos plans toujours mais récemment, comme vous le savez, il y a eu un changement dans la direction du Musée des Civilisations. Il y a Victor Rabinovitch qui a été nommé le président. Alors moi j'ai téléphoné son bureau et j'ai demandé une confirmation de l'engagement qui a été fait il y a à peu près trois ans et puis j'ai donné une date d'échéance parce qu'on allait comparaître à cette audience aujourd'hui.

428 Alors quand j'ai rappelé il y a à peu près deux semaines, son adjointe m'a dit, "Mais c'est maintenant dans les mains de Pierre Pondbriand et on attend de lui une réponse". On attendait cette réponse avant l'audience mais on ne l'a pas reçue encore.

429 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Alors en fin de compte, vous n'avez rien de plus récent que la lettre de 96 qui est au dossier.

430 Mme DRESHER: Pas une lettre de confirmation, non.

431 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Ou une confirmation orale qui entérinerait la lettre de 96?

432 Mme DRESHER: Non, non.

433 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Mais vous proposez toujours d'avoir des studios et des facilités à Ottawa.

434 Mme DRESHER: Exactement. Kerry va répondre à cette question.

435 MR. JOHNSTON: Madam, we have checked out and had discussions with a number of possibilities. One is CJOH on Merivale Road, part of which space is now being used by RO Television, but towards the end of this summer, actually in June, they are moving down to the marketplace so the spot that they are taking on Merivale Road becomes vacant.

436 There are also two production companies to whom we have spoken who can supply us with studio space. One is the GAPC at 14 Colonnade Road, and the other one is Affinity Productions on Queensview Drive. Those are available to us.

437 THE CHAIRPERSON: And they would give you -- of course the Museum of Civilization would give you something extra as a site --

438 MR. JOHNSTON: Absolutely.

439 THE CHAIRPERSON: -- for production.

440 MS JOHNSTON: Absolutely.

441 THE CHAIRPERSON: But these alternatives would work.

442 MR. JOHNSTON: We would look for an alternative. Maybe we would go to the bridge or --

443 THE CHAIRPERSON: I don't know if Bell Canada would supply you underneath the bridge, under the Champlain Bridge. That is not what we used to do there when I was young. It wasn't production there. Anyone here from Ottawa would know what I'm talking about.

444 COMMISSIONER WILSON: Everyone else can guess.

--- Laughter / Rires

445 THE CHAIRPERSON: So you still will have -- your main uplink centre will be in Toronto?



448 MR. IANNUZZI: The idea is to have Ottawa as our main uplink, primarily because of the news and information and public affairs is actually going through there.

449 THE CHAIRPERSON: So what is produced in Toronto would be brought here by a land line?

450 MR. IANNUZZI: That's right. It's not time sensitive and therefore it would be land line or by --

451 THE CHAIRPERSON: Oh, I had understood that --

452 MR. IANNUZZI: No. Originally that was some of the intent.

453 THE CHAIRPERSON: Oh, it was originally.

454 MR. IANNUZZI: But the fact with the French service, Montreal is even closer to Ottawa and therefore the tie-in is between the two services, especially when we are dealing with news and information programming it would be much more ideal.

455 And in Montreal we have an understanding and recent arrangements with Télépart de Montréal for the uplinking.

456 THE CHAIRPERSON: For the uplink. So you will feed whatever is produced in Toronto by land line?

457 MR. IANNUZZI: Land line, yes.

458 THE CHAIRPERSON: And from Ottawa as well an uplink from Montreal?

459 MR. IANNUZZI: No, there will be two uplinks.

460 THE CHAIRPERSON: At that -- oh, yes, of course.

461 MR. IANNUZZI: The French service will be uplinked out of Télépart and the English service --

462 THE CHAIRPERSON: Where will you uplink from Montreal, then, the English feed right from the start?

463 MR. IANNUZZI: From Ottawa to the satellite?

464 THE CHAIRPERSON: You can uplink from here to the satellite?

465 MR. IANNUZZI: That's right.

466 MS DRESHER: "Here" being Kingston.

467 THE CHAIRPERSON: From Ottawa. Ottawa is the centre of the world.

468 THE CHAIRPERSON: I guess I lost my head a bit thinking of the Champlain Bridge.

--- Laughter / Rires

469 THE CHAIRPERSON: Do you have in place firm arrangements with Telesat and Bell with at least the English feed and are those the same arrangements as were indicated in your assumptions of 28 February 1997?

470 MR. IANNUZZI: Yes, they are for the most part. They are for the most part in that for the English service we will have a time difference feed for the west and, therefore, we have two transponders for that, and one eventually for the French service.

471 The cost of satellite, of course, today is less than it was at the time -- another one of those advantages -- but that will permit us to --

472 THE CHAIRPERSON: You are doing well this morning.

473 MR. IANNUZZI: Well, yes.

474 THE CHAIRPERSON: We are saving money.

475 MR. IANNUZZI: As someone said, maybe the Commission did you a favour by having you wait three years for this.

476 THE CHAIRPERSON: I hope that gets into the record.

477 MR. IANNUZZI: Yes.

478 THE CHAIRPERSON: With regard to the subtitling, there is a letter on file, which again is dated 1996 I believe, from the Special Broadcasting Service with regard to their ability and desire to provide you with subtitles, which will be quite a job. Is that still -- do you have any assurances or confirmation that is more recent on that score?

479 MR. IANNUZZI: Madam Chair, I have had the opportunity last August 15th to be in Australia and went and said hello. There have been changes throughout. Each three to four years there are changes at the head of the service, and to meet the new people. We still have the assurances that we have the ability to make use of their 15-year library of programming that is subtitled.

480 We are still talking about eventually going to MIP or other international markets and buying programming jointly and therefore they would do the subtitling and we would pay a royalty based on the amount that we would have paid for the broadcast rights.

481 So this is an ongoing situation and we intend to meet here in Banff on the 11th, I think it is, this year, and sort of pick up our relationship again and discuss how well this hearing has gone.

482 Mme BEAUDOIN-SWIFT: Aussi, Madame la Présidente, il y a plusieurs firmes du Québec qui nous ont offert du sous-titrage, dont Sous-titrage Inc. qui est de Montréal. Alors ce qui est intéressant de remarquer c'est que depuis trois ans le sous-titrage les coûts ont baissé encore à notre avantage alors lorsque vous regardiez les coûts, si on parle de 900 000 dollars, maintenant Sous-titrage Québec nous a offert des taux très raisonnables de 500 dollars de l'heure et encore en nous offrant un "package" intéressant avec toutes les émissions. Alors il y beaucoup de gens intéressés au Canada et je parle pour mon domaine, qui est le côté francophone, à faire le sous-titrage en français.

483 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Est-ce que l'organisation Special Broadcasting Service fait du sous-titrage en français aussi, parce que M. Iannuzzi parlait d'achats de services de leur bibliothèque or "shelf product". Do they have shelf product in French as well?

484 MR. IANNUZZI: No, they have French product which was subtitled in English, but not French product because there is very little. Australia is not a bilingual country. It's certainly not French.

485 THE CHAIRPERSON: So where will you get, for example, if the two services are similar, the world drama component, which I imagine will be films or main feature or made-for-television or telenovelas?

486 MR. IANNUZZI: The idea, if I may, is that should we buy programming together, then each one would pay for its own rights. A work print would be developed for the English service by going to Australia, they would do the subtitling in English. We would have a work print here in Canada and have print subtitling done, most likely in Montreal.

487 THE CHAIRPERSON: Are you envisaging a duplication of this type of prime time programming, that there would be the same, let's say Yugoslav film, or a film in Czech, and one would be --

488 MR. IANNUZZI: Vice-President of Programming.

489 THE CHAIRPERSON: -- English and French, so in some cases it would be the same product with simply different subtitles?

490 MR. McHALE: To use your example, Madam Chair, of Yugoslavia, Canadian viewers would get a first opportunity to see "Montenegro" in its original Slavic language with English subtitles in English Canada and French subtitles in the French market.

491 THE CHAIRPERSON: But that is not a film few people have seen.

492 MR. McHALE: Unfortunately, you are correct.

493 THE CHAIRPERSON: It is a well distributed film.

494 MR. McHALE: Yes.

495 THE CHAIRPERSON: Are you talking about the country Montenegro or the movie?

496 MR. McHALE: No, the movie.

497 THE CHAIRPERSON: The movie.

498 MR. McHALE: I'm just using it to illustrate.

499 THE CHAIRPERSON: Or the part of the country, because if you are talking -- it's mainstream almost. Even I have seen it.

500 MR. McHALE: Going back to the issue of quality subtitles, during the demo reel that we played earlier I hope that the audience and the Commissioners noted on the last piece, "Manhole Children", this is where we were using state-of-the-art digital subtitles that were added at our production office, MediaTribe's production office in Toronto.

501 The subtitles were totally different than the earlier examples we used, and that was quite deliberate because one of the issues with subtitling that SBS Australia found is people found them difficult to read, white on white backgrounds being an example. In the last segment, "Manhole Children", which was a Japanese-Mongolian television co-production we used new state-of-the-art subtitles.

502 Building on SBS and how they developed a quality subtitling division, they hired native speakers. In Canada we are fortunate that Toronto and Montreal are both international cities and have peoples from many parts of the world and we will use those communities to ensure that the subtitles are exact.

503 What we don't want -- maybe Madam Chairman has seen this movie as well, "Like Water For Chocolate" --

504 THE CHAIRPERSON: I have seen that too.

505 MR. McHALE: -- where Spanish-speaking people were rolling in the aisles laughing at the humour in that movie while those of us who couldn't speak Spanish --

506 THE CHAIRPERSON: That's Mexican, isn't it?

507 MR. McHALE: Yes, correct -- couldn't understand the movie, or all of it.

508 MR. JOHNSTON: Madam Chair, could I just add, we also have on record two companies in Ottawa that can provide that service and a company in Montreal that can provide the same service in terms of the quality of the subtitling.

509 THE CHAIRPERSON: Explain to me how its going to work, let's say, for the "World Regional Journal". You will get footage, some of it presumably will be current, and then you will also have commentary. How will you handle the subtitles in that?

510 MS DRESHER: I'm going to ask Howard Bernstein, our Director of News Programming.

511 MR. BERNSTEIN: Madam Chair, on "World Journal" what we hope to do is use a subtitling service that is similar to what is done for the deaf, that it is done as people are speaking.

512 THE CHAIRPERSON: The cost of that must be higher?

513 MR. BERNSTEIN: Yes, it is and, if you notice in our budgets, it is reflected.

514 THE CHAIRPERSON: While we are on the subject of subtitles, there is a letter I'm a bit curious about.

515 Q&A Communications, which is one of the investors, there is a letter dated March 7, 1997 saying that the amount of $250,000 for the funding will be supplied as kind as subtitling -- no, as closed captioning. Is that still the case?

516 MR. IANNUZZI: Yes, Madam Chair.

517 THE CHAIRPERSON: So that will not be a liquid asset?

518 MR. IANNUZZI: No, that is in kind, right, and it is for closed captioning which we --

519 THE CHAIRPERSON: So the management group will be in kind as well as the Q&A?

520 MR. IANNUZZI: Correct.

521 THE CHAIRPERSON: For a total of about a half a million dollars?

522 MR. IANNUZZI: Correct.

523 THE CHAIRPERSON: I will, if it is agreeable to my colleagues, take a break now, it is 10:30, and we will come back and discuss the fun part, programming.

524 Thank you.

--- Upon recessing at 1038 / Suspension à 1038

--- Upon resuming at 1058 / Reprise à 1058

525 THE CHAIRPERSON: Order, please. Welcome back.

526 We will now proceed with the area of programming.

527 So I will want to look at diversity and complementarity of your programming proposal, try to understand it better. Under those rubrics we will discuss the use of third language and its effect on the proposal, as well as your Canadian content proposal, both with regard to exhibition and expenditures, the commitments on U.S. programming, and some questions on the feeds, although we have covered quite a bit of that this morning, and then some wrap up questions about the Codes, et cetera, and the categories of programming.

528 First, the nature of service. As you know, the Commission typically requires that each specialty service accept a description of its service that it is bound by and which establishes the overall nature of the programming offered. I think it would be fair to say that is in large part to assure diversity in the system and complementarity, and that the Commission also has a policy which remains not to licence services which are competitive, which are directly competitive. So that would go to both diversity and complementarity.

529 Your proposal involves most categories of programming. To name a few, news; sports, both professional and amateur; all forms of drama; analysis and information; variety; dance. So there are few categories that are not present.

530 Before discussing how complementary it will be to an existing or existing specialty services, how will it be complementary to a general interest service which is niche or specialty by virtue of being in a language other than French or English?

531 For example, I'm not as familiar perhaps with their current programming, but my view would be, I think that in fairness you could say, for example, the Chinese service, Fairchild as well as Telelatino, are general interest services with many categories of programming and become niche by virtue of the fact that they program in a different language. How will you be different from those services that rely on being third language to be specialty?

532 MS DRESHER: Madam Chair, I would like to reply to your question. I think all of us are eager to address that question.

533 THE CHAIRPERSON: This is one you expected?

534 MS DRESHER: That's right. As well as the various questions that go with it.

535 I think just to set things into perspective, into relief, I would like to say unequivocally that we do not consider ourselves a specialty licence, a specialty licence application. We are applying for new national network.

536 In programming terms, we consider ourselves to be a general interest conventional service doing world programming rather than American programming.

537 Now, when you ask us how does World TV differ from other conventional services, first of all our foreign programming is not U.S. programming principally, but world international programming.

538 Secondly, unlike other conventional services we won't have a national newscast.

539 Now, why are we not specialty? World TV is not narrowcasting to any special audience segment, okay, nor are we focusing on any special categories or topics. For example, we are not exclusively drama, as you alluded before; we are not exclusively sports; we are not exclusively gardening; we are not exclusively children. We are running a fairly full gamut of programming categories.

540 So I just want to set that into relief, and now I am going to turn the microphone over to my colleagues to amplify on what I have just said.

541 THE CHAIRPERSON: Before you do that, I don't have all your application here, I have read it all however, but if I look at Schedule 27, your supplementary brief, for example, it says:

"This is an application to the Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission to obtain a national network licence to carry on a programming undertaking: specialty television service via satellite cable." (As read)

542 Are you saying today that is not what you are applying for?

543 MR. IANNUZZI: No, we are applying under the specialty licence application. Our specialty --

544 THE CHAIRPERSON: But are you expecting us to create a class, a different class of service?

545 MR. IANNUZZI: No. Our specialty, because we are trying to devine -- I'm sorry, to define the nature of the service. And to get to the simplicity of our service is that our specialty, therefore, is international -- is world programming. So it's that broad category that makes that the specialty.

546 When our Chair refers to it as wider than the normal narrowcast vertical type programming that you can force the square peg in the round hole, in this particular case it needs that wider breadth, that wider range of programming in order to satisfy the demand for world programming in general. It's not a question of world programming as a specialty, nor is it aimed at a specific audience. Therefore, if it was in one language it would become ethnic-specific. We are not an ethnic special television, the licence that we are applying for.

547 So under the specialty, yes, we are applying for a specialty licence, but with the characteristics that we are defining here this morning.

548 MR. JOHNSTON: Madam Chair, our mantra really is "access and inclusion for all Canadians". That includes our Canadian programming as well as our world programming. So the Chinese programming is for Chinese Canadians, and that is great and we support that, but what we are saying is we are trying to create a service that will be available to all Canadians.

549 THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, so is Telelatino and Fairchild. Perhaps not Fairchild, but Telelatino is on extended basic in very large cities like Toronto.

550 So I know that you describe your service as multicultural/multilingual but not ethnic in a number of places in your application. In your new reply at page 4, you state that the service you propose is "not ethnic because it is not specifically directed to a distinctive group."

551 Well, is the systemic use of a third language in group, especially with the block programming you have where on consecutive days you will have different -- you describe it as geopolitical regions or -- it could be in one language -- on Monday have a large group of programs in a language.

552 What is the difference between that, other than the subtitling? Because when you say it is not specifically directed to a distinct group, one may wish to get a particular audience, but how the Commission looks at it is: What is it programmed like? What is it? And then the likely audience that it will get.

553 So how would you respond to the fact that with the manner in which you want to program, and there could be 6.5 hours in one day in one language, how is that then not complementary but competitive with the existing niche services? Because it is what you do and how you program it that allows us to say this is the likely audience, but certainly not just saying "We aim at the mainstream but our programming will be up to 6.5 hours in Italian one day and Chinese the next, but it will be subtitled therefore mainstream will be watching it". How do you reconcile that?

554 MR. McHALE: Madam Chair, just to clarify the type of international programming, it is unlikely and probably --

555 THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, you call it world programming, international programming, I think it's fair to say it's third language programming as well.

556 MR. McHALE: Correct. We are going to acquire our programming from an incredible number of countries and sources. The example you provide that if we are programming one night with an emphasis on southern Europe, we are already talking about Portuguese, Spanish, French, German, Dutch, Swedish, Finnish, all the different language groups.

557 We intend to place a restriction of no more than 15 per cent from any one language, other than both official languages, in our schedule so that we are not targeting the Italian audience when we talk about western Europe. We are targeting a mainstream audience.

558 Going back to SBS Australia, a number of years after starting they commissioned a survey of their viewers and a key finding was SBS is not a service for immigrants -- this is in section 27, page 18 that we filed -- and that SBS has a traditional audience profile even though they were programming in 60 languages, but the subtitles made it accessible to all.

559 That is what is unique about our service. It is not ethnic where we are programming in one specific language targeted at a specific group. We are targeting the new mainstream in Canada. We are targeting people who have an international background, who are interested in world affairs and interested in their neighbours. Because increasingly in Canada we have peoples from all over the world living here.

560 THE CHAIRPERSON: That is what you are targeting but, in effect, that is what some ethnic services are targeting as well. They are targeting -- and heaven knows they will want to be called mainstream too, except that they will get programming in a language other than English or French. And 6.5 hours in any one language could be in one day, in one evening. That is a lot.

561 I don't know what the Australian program looks like. I'm looking at your proposal. If you say you limit the programming to 15 per cent per week, the way I calculate that is 18.9 hours. Sometimes you say 24 hours, which is 20 per cent, and 6.5 per cent per week in prime time in one language.

562 Look at your supplementary brief, page 8.

"Total coverage, excluding `The Journal'"..."

563 So you could be even more, because there could be some in "The Journal":

"... will not exceed 15 per cent of any single nonofficial language, that is 6.5 prime time hours and 25 hours overall in a week." (As read)

564 There is nothing in the application, unless we impose something, that would prevent you from doing one language 6.5 hours one day, 6.5 hours the next day, 6.5 -- is there?

565 MR. McHALE: From a programming perspective that would be a bad decision.

566 THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, I'm looking at what is possibly going -- what is this service possibly going to be when I examine it in the context of the Commission's policies. So I'm looking, of course, at the whole gamut from not doing more than one hour to doing 6.5 hours in one day. Then when I look at 6.5 hours in one day, I ask myself: Well, who may be the audience? You will hear from intervenors later, but it could possibly be those who are looking for ethnic programming, if they are not too bothered by the subtitles.

567 MS DRESHER: From our point of view that doesn't make very good programming -- logistically it doesn't make very good programming or marketing sense.

568 THE CHAIRPERSON: It could.

569 MS DRESHER: I can tell you from the standing of I am an ethnic broadcaster, that is one little hat I wear in Montreal. I co-produce and co-host an ethnic program and I have done it for a number of years and I can tell you that the content, the target group, the slants, the treatment, everything about that program and the way it is scheduled is vastly different from anything that we are attempting to do here with World TV.

570 THE CHAIRPERSON: Explain to me how.

571 If I look at the 6:00 to 6:00 where you could have six hours in one language and still be within the limitation you propose, you are going to have -- and that excludes the "World Journal", which is an hour from 6:00 to -- so you are now seven, if you exclude that, and which there could be of that same language, then you have the possibility of the rest of the prime time in one language.

572 What will be on world drama that couldn't be on ethnic services? There will be movies, telenovelas.

573 MR. IANNUZZI: Madam Chair, if I may, one has to look at the fact that we are here asking for a particular mandate. We are asking for particular carriage for the widest audience. I cannot see ourselves as a corporation or the programming department -- it would be like having a funnel, that we have an opportunity here about this wide and we are going to program in order to bring it down the funnel in order to, on one particular evening, go out and program for a very specific small audience, whether it be Italian, Spanish or Chinese.

574 So, I mean, there is absolutely no sense, if I may, from a programmer's point of view, from a marketer's point of view, to actually reverse all the things that we are standing for here today. That is the assurances I tried to give Asian Network, the assurances I tried to give Odyssey, the assurances that I tried to give Telelatino when I was able to speak with them.

575 So the point is, they all start from the same pretext that if they were doing this that is the way they would do it, because they are set in their particular mode of broadcasting and programming to a distinct specific group of that particular size.

576 Even on a good day, it is still not an audience sizeable enough to make our particular service viable. This is why we are asking you for the carriage that we are asking for.

577 Now, when we break down the peoples of the world as represented in Canada, this is not something that we woke up one morning and invented. Stats Canada on its own from a marketing sense shows us that the breakdown of the peoples of the world as represented in Canada are absolutely in clusters, I think it's six clusters, that are over a million people each. That is when we take all the people from the Pacific Rim, they become a market.

578 So it's from a marketing standpoint, because in the end that is the whole fundamental idea of broadcasting programming that will give us the opportunity of selling that audience for revenues to make the service viable.

579 So having said that, each evening we will -- after the news, we will break down the drama, the movie of the week or the various programs that we have. We are not strip programming, as all ethnic services do, in other words, seven days a week from 6:00 to 7:00 is an Italian soap opera made in Brazil and not subtitled.

580 We have the movie of the day every day of the week, but it is not all movies from Italy, it is not all movies from China, it is not all movies from Greece. It's the quality of the movie and the day of the week that we will be choosing movies from the Mediterranean region that probably would be in the western Europe evening.

581 So we are, in a sense, forced to, if one would want to use that -- even if one didn't have the business acumen to make that particular decision, that one is forced to say: Why are we taking this program made for a narrow audience without subtitles? How is it going to go and lose audience and therefore revenues? Our marketing department would have a fit.

582 So all of our efforts are aimed at, true, the wider audience throughout the week by programming vertically rather than horizontally, and the language of the program is only secondary to its quality and the region of the world from which we are gaining the programming.

583 THE CHAIRPERSON: What is the reason for having this format of consecutive days to geopolitical reasons, you express it as in your supplementary brief at page 3, and you actually give the regions at the bottom of page 8. And on page 5 you speak of doing it in order to -- okay, I quote now:

"...designed to enable in-depth programming on a different region of the globe on a particular evening. Such a format allows for general and more targeted marketing." (As read)

584 MR. IANNUZZI: The answer to that, Madam Chairman, is that again statistics have shown us that the people in Canada come from certain regions of the world, therefore, as one would think, would have an affinity to each other to begin with.

585 Therefore, for Canadians that are not from that region, it would attract them to that particular island within the schedule and that people could plan: Well, what am I going to watch this evening? Well, on World Télémonde this evening it is Pacific Rim and they have that tremendous Japanese film there, and also from China there is this other documentary, and from Singapore there is this. So that from a non-Pacific Rim person, but would definitely have an affinity to it, one could find all of that on one particular evening. For people from those particular regions who understand the language, well, those who are Japanese will appreciate the film even moreso, have a greater appreciation for the film because it's in their language.

586 THE CHAIRPERSON: Why, then, is your limitation 15 per cent of the programming weekly and 6.5 hours per week in prime in one language? It doesn't say "in Pacific Rim languages", it says "in one language".

587 MR. IANNUZZI: We thought that that was a number that would make it uneconomical to do such a thing, that is going even to that particular number. We are not locked in at that particular number.

588 THE CHAIRPERSON: So what do you think should be done to alleviate any concern that Monday night may become Chinese night and Tuesday night may become Spanish night?

589 MR. JOHNSTON: As a Canadian from the Pacific Rim, Madam Chairman, I would like to say that I would be extremely disappointed if the only thing I was to find on the night that we have Pacific Rim is all Japanese or all Chinese. The Pacific Rim is a wide --

590 THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, we would be disappointed too.

591 MR. JOHNSTON: Right. So we have no intention of ensuring that that is going to happen. I'm sure my other colleagues feel the same way about other parts of the world.

592 I mean, the Pacific Rim, using that as the example, is a very varied place and we intend to vary that place. What we will do though, I will know, if I am a viewer, that on that particular night I will see things from the Pacific Rim and that has a particular affinity for me as someone from the Pacific Rum. And because of the subtitling, it doesn't matter if it is in Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, Cambodian, Australian, Singaporian, it doesn't matter because I will be able to understand it all.

593 THE CHAIRPERSON: So if I go back to my "whereas", it is:

"Whereas the Commission wants a description of the nature of a service in order to be able to know that that service will offer diversity and complementarity." (As read)

594 It is your view that I should get some comfort from the fact that you will not do more than 6.5 hours from 6:00 to 6:00 -- suppose you won't -- in one language from these groups, Pacific Rim, western Europe, Middle East, Africa, Asia, eastern Europe, Caribbean, Americas. You would be well within your commitments if you had Cantonese from 6:00 to 6:00 on Monday and Italian from 6:00 to 6:00 on Tuesday.

595 MR. McHALE: Madam Chair, in the prime time 6:00 to 12:00 --

596 THE CHAIRPERSON: Six to 12:00, I apologize.

597 MR. McHALE: Yes.

598 THE CHAIRPERSON: I think I made that mistake throughout.

599 MR. McHALE: Two hours are Canadian produced, so we are talking about a four-hour period.

600 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but it excludes the "Journals". There could be Pacific Rim news and more Cantonese in the "Journal" that night --

601 MR. McHALE: Correct.

602 THE CHAIRPERSON: -- from the way I read the description.

603 MR. McHALE: The lucky position that we find ourselves in is that 90 per cent of the world's programming is never seen in North America, and that gap is growing because the broadcasting scenario in other countries is changing the same way as it is in Canada. Germany now has a syndication market; Korea licensed approximately 10 to 12 specialty stations a couple of years ago. The only reason we put in that limit is to deal specifically with the South American, Central American audience.

604 In Canada we may not realize that we make up less than 2 per cent of the hemisphere's population. You have an incredible variety of programming coming out of South America, most of it in Spanish, except for Brazil and Portuguese, and we would like to have the ability to take the best of programming of that part of the world.

605 The other regions of the world, the language groups are so varied the probability of having a single night all in one specific language is remote.

606 THE CHAIRPERSON: When you refer to "world programming", I gather you exclude Britain, France, U.S., because you just don't want to call it third language programming?

607 MR. McHALE: Correct. We have placed a limitation on the amount of U.S. programming.

608 THE CHAIRPERSON: Surely the U.S. is part of the world, and so is England. So it's fine to say "world programming" as opposed to "Canadian programming", "U.S. programming", but -- and it's fine for you to say my plan -- and to resist my calling it third language programming, but isn't that what it is going to be?

609 MR. McHALE: If I may correct the stats, it's 94 per cent of the world's television is not seen in North America, U.S. and Canada.

610 THE CHAIRPERSON: I'm talking about what is going to be seen on WTM, because that is what we are looking at.

611 Is this a service that will add diversity, complementarity, and is it defined or circumscribed sufficiently for us to have a level of comfort that that is what it will do? Then we can hear the intervenors about what it may be to them.

612 But what I'm trying to circumscribe is: What is it going to be and what may it look like as proposed?

613 MR. McHALE: Well, Madam Chair, the demo reel illustrates the variety of programming that we intend to acquired. Two examples that help improve the diversity on the Canadian broadcast system: One, "Manhole Children" -- the programmers at Banff Festival recommended that particular program to us. It is a sample of an international co-production -- has not been picked up by any broadcaster, ethnic or traditional.

614 The second program "Ahron Cohen's Debt" was a prize winner in Banff last year, multiple awards in Europe this year, a fascinating story about a great father and husband who ends up in jail and his family doesn't know why or what they can do to help him.

615 This is the type of programming we are talking about. It is diverse, it will add to the complexity and variety of programming on the Canadian broadcast system, and up to now only the elite few who attend festivals have the opportunity in Canada to see this type of programming. We feel that Canadians deserve to see this type of programming. Our market research backs up that need. Time after time over the years people have responded they are interested in world programming.

616 With our ability to cherry-pick the best of the world programming we will add a new dimension to the broadcast service. In the Canadian side we will accomplish the same thing by reflecting the new mainstream.

617 MR. IANNUZZI: Madam Chair, if I may add just one particular point and we can get to the bottom of this one here.

618 As I mentioned earlier, the number 15 per cent that we originally had discussed in our application -- and we didn't go too deeply on that one, and I must admit simply because it is not our intention to counterprogram with any of the ethnic specialty services. Therefore, when it comes to whether it is world -- and maybe our reference should be to world third language programming, or third language programming, is that we would be willing to make a commitment right here this morning that no more than 3 per cent -- now, that is a long way from 15 and you say how did you get down to that? The fact is that you mentioned --

619 THE CHAIRPERSON: In three years.

620 MR. IANNUZZI: Pardon?

621 THE CHAIRPERSON: In three years.

622 MR. IANNUZZI: In three years.

623 The fact is that, as you brought it to our attention this morning, the fact that the other specialty services probably could have some impact on them should we decide at any given time in one of our more -- in our looser moments, decide to program either six hours in any one evening in a particular language -- that not being the case, but should that happen, therefore there should be some particular safeguard.

624 I can understand that. Therefore, I can commit here today on behalf of our application that 3 per cent of 126 hours would give us approximately 3.78 hours, which in any given day or week, whichever the Commission feels is probably the best way to formulate this, but certainly in any given week.

625 This would avoid strip programming which, in order to program, counterprogram with any of the ethnic services, one would have to put the programming on a horizontal strip rather than on a vertical. And even if it were done a particular day in one particular language, then the 3.7 hours would be outside of the news and information. So we would be willing to accept that.

626 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Iannuzzi, I want it to be clear that I am not at this stage making a case for the existing services. I started the questioning of your programming by saying the Commission wants to know what it may look like when it looks at the limitations you are prepared to live with and will it then add diversity and will it be complementary or will it be competitive.

627 So the intervenors can make their cases and have made them themselves. I am looking at here from our policy perspective and looking at the extent to which it will bring diversity. And it is doubly important, since it is going to be on basic, that it be a complementary service that will offer diversity.

628 MR. IANNUZZI: One of the fundamental reasons, if I may, Madam Chairman, is that our service is actually complementary. We have always circulated that to the cable companies, to the other services that have intervened. We see ourselves totally complementary in the fact that it is exactly that, we are not counterprogramming to them, we are not trying to overlap programming to take away that particular narrow ethnic audience. Why would we want to do that when we have the wider audiences?

629 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. My point, Mr. Iannuzzi, is for us the intention of the applicant is one part, but the proposal has to be such as to effectively carry on the intention.

630 MR. IANNUZZI: Correct.

631 THE CHAIRPERSON: This is why these questions are being asked.

632 MR. JOHNSTON: Madam Chairman, at my opening remarks we talked about the new mainstream. The new mainstream basically means multilingual. That doesn't mean to say that you speak Spanish and Italian. We are attempting to make this accessible to all Canadians, regardless of whether your mother tongue is a third language or one of the two official languages, so that the common denominator becomes the two official languages. In this way we are making the diversity -- we are increasing the diversity of the system, we are making available to all Canadians regardless of whether they are third language or official language speaking.

633 THE CHAIRPERSON: You must be aware that what we hear from our ethnic broadcasters occasionally and more and more often is that the ethnic service should be allowed to do more English because the groups are mainstream. So I understand your aim, but there is a bit of a contradiction in directing your programming to mainstream and having it in a third language supplied with subtitles.

634 I notice in your application, for example, that you say: Well, there is more to Italian cinema than "Cinema Paradiso". Well, I'm quite sure that there is more to Telelatino than "Cinema Paradiso". You know, it's programming in Italian, it is programming in Cantonese. I understand you would search for more quality, more --

635 MS DRESHER: Madam Wylie --

636 THE CHAIRPERSON: -- but those services also supply more than --

637 MS DRESHER: Madam Wylie, I just want to make a rejoinder again as a part-time ethnic broadcaster in Montreal with considerable ethnic broadcasting experience across Canada in radio and television.

638 When I produce my program my objectives are maintenance of my heritage, okay. My objective is continuity of my heritage. My objective is maintenance of my language or languages of birth, okay, my birthright. My intention is not to appeal to people who are outside that narrow language and cultural ghetto.

639 To me, the beauty of world television is that the concept in a sense is entirely antithetical to what we know or what I understand to be ethnic broadcasting because it something that reaches out, it is cosmopolitan, it is inclusive as opposed to exclusive, and it is not ethnocentric.

640 If those are the philosophical and social underpinnings, then obviously they are translated into your audience objectives, your programming objectives, your financial objectives, your business plan, and the like. That is the way I see it from my point of view.

641 THE CHAIRPERSON: The subtitling of it is crucial, correct? I mean, that is what is going to be the nature of service almost, the fact that it will be third language, but subtitled, and therefore the subtitle will attract me or other parties who are either unilingual or bilingual or not perhaps of a language -- if they are recent Canadians it may be neither and they may watch Mexican programming even though they are Chinese, if they can read English. It's complicated.

642 MR. IANNUZZI: Madam Chair, the nature of our service is also an environment, the channel itself -- and that's our specialty. We are creating an environment for people of all backgrounds in Canada to have a place where they can go and appreciate all the things they may have read about, heard about from neighbours and travels, and so on and so forth. There is a certain comfort of knowing that you can go home and sit down and watch television and go directly to a -- call it your preferred channel, or a preference as you would on Internet, and therefore that channel is sitting there waiting for you each evening with something that may or may not interest you because of that part of the world, but certainly something to fall to.

643 We are going to convert that. That is our whole marketing plan. We are going to take those people who gravitate towards that particular channel for this particular environment, which is an inclusive environment. We could have gone around and said we don't have a mix of dubbed and ethnic, but we are bringing the original language because there should be an appreciation for that as well. If by virtue of having the original language we also gain some audience that is generally considered an ethnic audience, then albeit. This is the value-added that our advertiser is getting.

644 We must remember that we are going after national advertising alone, and that impact, certainly from a revenue standpoint, is very little on ethnic services for the amount of national advertising is quite small.

645 So we are not after their audience, we are not counterprogramming, we are not taking away revenue, so therefore any commitment that we can make here today that would assure the Commission, and through the Commission these particular networks, that in essence we are out there creating a new traffic that even they as broadcasters will be benefitting from -- that's where we are complementary.

646 It's not just being complementary, we are creating a new awareness for that type of programming and they too in time will realize that paying a little more for their programming, and probably subtitling, will increase that awareness in Canada of a tremendous amount of programming.

647 It won't be all English and all French and a smattering of third language programming across this country in various pockets, I can foresee that once our service is made available there will be a tremendous amount of room and demand for a national ethnic television service which will take these programs that are a smattering of those, bring them up and make that readily available to Canadians. They too will be starting with the subtitling, and you can rest assured that we will not be coming back here as intervenors saying "What is Telelatino doing with subtitles?" No way, because the more people who are watching subtitling, the more people who are watching world third language programming, the better it is for us, the more the agencies will have departments running after this particular news stream within the next four to five years.

648 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Iannuzzi, I want to repeat again, I am not looking at it from what harm it may or may not do in advertising to the existing services, they can do that for themselves and you will be able to reply.

649 I am looking at it from diversity. What is there in the system that serves certain groups, complementary, and also is this going to be directly competitive comes into play as well to the extent that services that are not complementary then spread the audiences, the niche audiences. We are looking also at the viability of such a service as proposed and the appropriateness of allowing it on basic.

650 Interestingly, basic at 30 cents a month -- of course represents, I think, 75 per cent, approximately, of your revenues, correct -- over time is, in the environment of 2000 with the type of licences that the Commission will be giving after applications are heard this August on digital only, it's a long way, it has to be justified when you are not only on analog but you are on basic.

651 With regard to the subtitling and how possibly dubbing, Commissioner Stuart will have some further questions after.


653 THE CHAIRPERSON: Langford, I'm sorry. Commissioner Langford, Stuart Langford.

654 Will there be third language in the world sports programs as well?

655 MR. McHALE: Madam Chair, if I may go back to your previous question, if I could take the liberty of doing that, you describe the service as complex. We, the World Télémonde team, would prefer a different adjective -- innovative.

656 This is a very innovative, unique, new type of service and, as such, brings a whole new volume of quality to the Canadian broadcasting system. Diversity we have dealt with. The variety of programming we will bring in, both international and domestic. I think our news journal is very innovative rather than complex and provides a balanced view of what is happening in the world to our audience.

657 Complementary. Yes, we are complementary to their broadcasting system. We feel we can add viewers. Our research indicates that people who are light to moderate viewers will tune into this service, so we are bringing a new audience to the Canadian broadcast system.

658 If I could pass to Howard Bernstein who can describe the "World Journal" and the diversity and quality that it adds.

659 THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, perhaps before we go back to the "World Journal", since you went back to the general question, we can empty it by me asking you: What would be the suggested wording of a nature of service for WTM that would reach the objective of ensuring complementarity and diversity and would provide a description that you can be held to from a regulatory perspective?

660 Your "Nature of Service" is many paragraphs, but what would you focus on to answer the concerns I have just expressed that these two aims should be realized? What would you describe it as in a short paragraph, to circumscribe it?

661 MR. McHALE: Madam Chair, World Télémonde is a general interest channel that is available with subtitles in English and in French with 5 per cent or less of its programming coming from the United States and the rest of -- and all of the programming in other language broadcast in their original language with subtitles. That's kind of wordy.

662 THE CHAIRPERSON: You exclude the United States, but there is Britain, there is Australia, it will be in a language other than French and English?

663 MR. McHALE: Excluding English. You may have guessed from my background I am from Ireland and we certainly don't consider our --

664 THE CHAIRPERSON: Surely that is part of the world.

665 MR. McHALE: Was part of the world that we produce in English.

666 MR. JOHNSTON: We're not Great Britain.

667 MR. McHALE: We produce in English. So does New Zealand, Australia, South Africa.

668 MS JOHNSTON: We are not part of Great Britain.

669 MR. McHALE: And likewise, as Kerry reminded me, not part of the United Kingdom. Some countries in the Caribbean produce in the English language, and Africa. India produces in the English language. In Africa you have certain countries that produce in the French language.

670 So we are not in the business of competing with specialty channels who can afford to pay large license fees for English and French. Both of those -- from the United Kingdom and France -- both of those programming categories are well served. One has just to look at the variety of programming from both of those countries on-air to realize that that audience is well served in Canada.

671 THE CHAIRPERSON: So in your supplementary brief at page 8 you state that:

"...33.5 per cent of the overall schedule and 50 per cent of prime..."

672 Which for you is 6:00 to 12:00:

"...will be subtitled." (As read)

673 So that means that world drama could have a British movie or an Australian movie and not be subtitled?

674 MR. McHALE: Our goal is long term to have all programming subtitled.

675 THE CHAIRPERSON: So there will be no English language programming on the English feed. Because when you say "world programming", in world drama you exclude the U.S., in a sense, by saying no more than 5 per cent, which still allows you at least a movie.

676 MR. McHALE: Our intention with the U.S., and we are in the process of developing a relationship with Worldlink Television, it is a service that reflects our philosophy and where Worldlink wants to open up the world to Americans and prove there is an aphobic nature of American audiences who will rarely watch anything outside of the U.S. They are bringing in -- Neil Sieling, their program manager was in Toronto last week checking out "Hot Docs" and acquiring amazing programming, and he is heading out to Banff as well later on this summer.

677 The type of programming we see coming from the U.S. is programming that Worldlink or other stations like that would commission. For example, they have commissioned a drama that is based in a hospital in Jamaica. It is Jamaica E.R. It's a real E.R. It's a cinema varieté type series and it focuses on a hospital in one of the highest crime areas in the world. It's in the English language and it is shot on location in Jamaica. This is the type of unique programming that we see ourselves bringing in.

678 One does only have to look at our revenue projections and we cannot compete for movies of the week paying $1.3 million, $2 million for license fees -- or for major Hollywood movies. That is not the type of programming we are interested in or can afford.

679 THE CHAIRPERSON: Now we will go to Mr. Bernstein who will explain with greater detail how the "World Regional Journal" which, considering the hour at which it will be on the air, is -- I guess it would be fair to say that between that and the "World Journal" will be flagship programs, Canadian produced. Is that correct?

680 MR. BERNSTEIN: Yes, that is correct.

681 THE CHAIRPERSON: I looked at the description of them in the Schedule B which describes programming and in an appendix to your supplementary brief, and it says, quote:

"Footage used to cover events will be as shot by local television cameras with commentary in the original language. World Télémonde will provide English language subtitling and editorial commentary." (As read)

682 And, quote:

"World Journal will use the same editorial approach as World Regional Journal." (As read)

683 So I would like to know if only the footage or the audio as well, how will that then be integrated? It will be using English language? How will that work?

684 MR. BERNSTEIN: If I may start, Madam Chair, with an anecdote. I was in Bosnia during the war covering the war and I saw all of the Canadian, U.S. and British Correspondents reporting from Sarajevo. Nobody ventured to Belgrade. Nobody ventured to Zagreb. Canadians were force-fed one side of an extremely complex story.

685 What we are trying to do is eliminate that sort of problem. The way we see it, we will take a major story that is happening in the world. We will bring in, we will gather stories from the original country where it has happened, possibly from a neighbour country, and possibly from a third country. We will take the original story as it went to air in those countries. Obviously when that has to happen we will translate it.

686 On the Elian Gonzales story, a local story from the United States might be in English and we wouldn't have to translate that into English. But most of our stories will come from places where the original language is not English. Therefore, if we were covering a story such as the Peruvian election, obviously the Peruvian election story would come in in Spanish. Those stories would then be packaged only with subtitles. You would get to see what the -- you would get the effect as a viewer of how did those people in those countries see that story.

687 Afterwards, we would have a discussion about each of those stories. That discussion would bring people into our studio, hopefully who bridge the gap somehow. In order words, someone who may have a South American background on the Peruvian election, but also just as Canada. These could be people like editors of newspapers from those regions who happen to be Canadian, or Canadian newspapers who deal with people from those regions. These are voices that are seldom heard in this country and these are stories that at this stage we tend to get just one side of.

688 We think that by providing the added value of seeing what happens in other places, how other people see those things, that this is something very unique to our system.

689 THE CHAIRPERSON: Global sports would be much the same? You may have a commentary of a soccer game in Brazil in Brazilian in Spanish -- no, Portuguese.

690 MR. McHALE: Madam Commissioner, while I would love to acquire soccer programming, I think Mr. Murdoch has beaten us to most of the world supply already.

691 THE CHAIRPERSON: Suppose it's not the world soccer, but --

692 MR. McHALE: A lower level.

693 THE CHAIRPERSON: -- amateur sports.

694 MR. McHALE: We were looking at alternative sports here originally on the schedule, it was done as Canadian content, but the rules for qualifying as Canadian content have changed since we applied so this is now international programming.

695 Yes, we would subtitle in English and French if the commentary was not in one of those languages.

696 THE CHAIRPERSON: But there is nothing that prevents you from having world programming that is sports.

697 MR. McHALE: There is nothing, no.

698 THE CHAIRPERSON: Because it is in the categories that you are programming. Maybe world sports will be massaged as a Canadian program.

699 MR. McHALE: No, it's a world program.

700 THE CHAIRPERSON: That won't be possible because you would have to have a feed there, and so on, to fit.

701 MR. McHALE: Yes. Even though I know both Kerry and I would love to travel to New Zealand and watch rugby games, it's not -- we can't do it.

702 THE CHAIRPERSON: Because it is under the list of Canadian-produced programs.

703 MR. McHALE: Madam Chair, as I explained, when we filed. Now it would no longer qualify and we would remove it from the Canadian content list.

704 THE CHAIRPERSON: You felt that it qualified before?

705 MR. McHALE: Yes. We were looking at a program that would bring in highlights, we would provide editorial context here with a host. Now because the feeds -- we would have to have a production team at the location. It's no longer plausible.

706 THE CHAIRPERSON: Canadian content.

707 Now, in your Promise of Performance at page 2, which is 5.2, the proposed percentage -- this is from 1996 -- in the broadcast day is Year 1, 40; Year 2, 45; Year 3, 50; Year 4, 55; and in Year 5 reaching 60. In other parts it says reaching 60 in Year 7.

708 Then at 5.3 of your Promise of Performance, 6:00 to midnight Years 1 to 7 is 50 per cent. But in a letter dated February '98, I guess, you speak of, I quote:

"Throughout the licence period 55 per cent in prime time; Year 3, 60 per cent overall." (As read)

709 Which is it?

710 MR. IANNUZZI: Madam Chair --

711 THE CHAIRPERSON: It's February 28, 1997. I'm looking at page 3. At the bottom of the page, I quote:

"In prime WTM will, throughout its licence period, have Canadian content of 55..." (As read)

712 The Promise of Performance says 50, and I think generally 50 has been talked about. And in it's third year it will reach a 60 per cent level, which is five years in the Promise of Performance and sometimes we speak of at the end of the licence term.

713 So, considering that, we may attach a condition of licence if you were licensed, which one is it?

714 MR. IANNUZZI: If I may, Madam Chairman, when the application was first put together we were looking at the availability of programming as far as Canadian content and how much of it we would have to make, what we could get out of independent production and what we could buy probably in our first year as a shelf item without falling into the Canadian programming that already exists that has already appeared on other programmings, we discounted that completely.

715 Therefore, we felt that in the first year or two that in order to maintain a quality rather than a quantity that our going in position might have been at 40-45 per cent level, then making it up as an average. That is why we increased to some points at 60 and even 65 so that we could guarantee that in our first term of license the average would have been 50 per cent, which is the requirement.

716 THE CHAIRPERSON: So over the seven year period you say 50 per cent?

717 MR. IANNUZZI: Right.

718 THE CHAIRPERSON: So it could be 35 in Year 1.

719 MR. IANNUZZI: No. We are starting off from a level, as we had stated in our application, of not less than 40.

720 THE CHAIRPERSON: Not less than 40 in Year 1, and you are not committing to when you would reach 60?

721 MR. IANNUZZI: Well, yes. On an increasing level I think it would be sometime in the third year, and specifically, I might add --

722 THE CHAIRPERSON: To get an average of 50 during the seven year licence term?

723 MR. IANNUZZI: Yes, absolutely.

724 The reason there, again, that works to our advantage, to the advantage of achieving the -- accelerating that particular level, is the introduction of the French service would automatically give us that increased level of Canadian programming, because we will be adding that to the English service as well. We will have ample programming, ample Canadian programming to fulfil that requirement, certainly in the third year.

725 THE CHAIRPERSON: This average, we were talking overall?

726 MR. IANNUZZI: No, the requirement I understand it --

727 THE CHAIRPERSON: Or 6:00 to 12:00?

728 MR. IANNUZZI: That's the 6:00 to 12:00.

729 THE CHAIRPERSON: What would it be, then --

730 MR. IANNUZZI: The overall is 60 per cent, as required.

731 THE CHAIRPERSON: But the overall is not 60 per cent in Year 1.

732 MR. IANNUZZI: No. I'm saying we would achieve that at the same time as we achieved it in prime time. We would achieve it in the third year.

733 THE CHAIRPERSON: So that again would be third year.

734 MR. IANNUZZI: In the third year, yes.

735 THE CHAIRPERSON: And would have an average -- I haven't calculated it.

736 MR. IANNUZZI: Yes.

737 THE CHAIRPERSON: How will you achieve 60 per cent Canadian content eventually while retaining this global concept?

738 MR. IANNUZZI: Well, the 60 per cent is the amount of Canadian content -- pardon?

739 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. When I try to envisage your block schedule now in the 6:00 to 12:00 evening period, with 40 per cent perhaps going in in Year 1. If you have 20 per cent more how will you increase the Canadian part of it and remain within the description of world programming?

740 MR. IANNUZZI: The fact -- if I may answer that and then I will pass it on to the Vice-President, Programming -- is that the primary area that we have to concentrate, of course, is in the prime time schedule, and that is where we maintain our 50 per cent level once we have reached the third year. The 60 per cent overall gives us that increase that we would have in the other daypart of the schedule.

741 THE CHAIRPERSON: But you are still -- but the overall broadcast day, 6:00 in the morning to midnight, you would still be within your description of a service provider of world programming, because that will be your specialty.

742 MR. IANNUZZI: Not less than 40 per cent would be world programming.

743 THE CHAIRPERSON: But as you increase the Canadian content, presumably you decrease the world programming.

744 MR. McHALE: Madam Chair, you are correct. The world programming is only one aspect of our programming. At the end of the day we are a Canadian and international channel and our commitment to Canadian programming that reflects a world view will start from day one. As we advance through the licence period, to answer your question directly, by year 3 with the increased subscriber revenues and advertising revenues hitting targets we should be able to produce more Canadian programming that reflects a global perspective.

745 In the financial statements we filed there is a substantial jump in the amount of monies allocated to Canadian programming in Year 3. It jumps from a total of $8 million to $10.5 million. With the ability of the increased subscriber penetration in the Quebec market, and increased advertising revenues, we can reach the goal of a higher percentage and have more money available for individual programs.

746 THE CHAIRPERSON: When you say you will commit yourself to 20 per cent of feature films on the service being Canadian, when would you schedule these films, 20 per cent of all feature films?

747 MR. McHALE: When we originally filed the schedule we had no Canadian cinema on the grid. To make up for world sports no longer being Canadian, we now have removed one world of cinema movie on the weekend and will replace it with a Canadian movie and we would repeat it at some other time during the week.

748 THE CHAIRPERSON: So, as we discussed earlier, if I understood you correctly, world drama would not feature Canadian films?

749 MR. McHALE: No, it wouldn't.

750 THE CHAIRPERSON: Now, expenditures on Canadian content. You mentioned this morning that it would be 33 per cent of gross revenues. Is that correct?

751 MR. McHALE: That's correct. That is the average over the seven year license period.

752 THE CHAIRPERSON: If we calculate your revenues over your total Canadian programming and production expenses, we get to about 38 per cent. If I add your revenues, your total revenues for Canadian content as filed, and divide that, I get 38 per cent, not 33, and you mentioned there a different percentage in one part of your programming higher than 33.

753 But usually what we do is we calculate the gross revenue as projected and your Canadian content as filed. I'm using the sheet that had both acquisition, production and all expenses, and it is more like 38 per cent. I don't know how you calculated the 33.

754 MR. McHALE: Madam Chair, on the audited statement the number you are looking at 85,690,000 --

755 THE CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean "audited statements"? The projections?

756 MR. McHALE: The projections --

757 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, okay.

758 MR. McHALE: -- that were reviewed.

759 THE CHAIRPERSON: All right.

760 MR. McHALE: The total is 38 per cent. That includes salaries, subtitling fees, interactive development, shipping, handling, development, script development and awards.

761 THE CHAIRPERSON: What is the date of the projection you are using? When was it filed?

762 MR. McHALE: With the original application. It's the schedule --

763 THE CHAIRPERSON: I have one with the original application. Let's see if we have the same numbers.

764 Year 1, 8,732,000?

765 MR. McHALE: Correct. That includes --

766 THE CHAIRPERSON: Year 7, 15,258,000?

767 MR. McHALE: Correct.

768 THE CHAIRPERSON: If I add all those numbers I get 85,696,000.

769 MR. McHALE: Correct.

770 THE CHAIRPERSON: Then I use the projected revenues.

771 MR. McHALE: That number includes items that do not qualify as expenditure on Canadian programming, including interactive development.

772 THE CHAIRPERSON: Isn't that interesting that I added them in?

773 MR. McHALE: Yes. There is a support schedule that gives a detailed breakdown.

774 THE CHAIRPERSON: So you were using the figures above?

775 MR. McHALE: Yes.

776 THE CHAIRPERSON: Seven million, three-seven-eight in Year 1, and 13,482,000 in Year 7?

777 MR. McHALE: Correct.

778 THE CHAIRPERSON: So would you be prepared to accept a condition of licence framed either, in either way, 33 per cent or 38, depending on what we put in?

779 MR. IANNUZZI: Yes, we would, Madam Chair.

780 THE CHAIRPERSON: With regard to Canadian content, specialty services, we still maintain expenditures as a commitment rather than the number of hours exhibited. It that acceptable to you?

781 MR. IANNUZZI: Yes, it is, Madam Chair.

782 THE CHAIRPERSON: And we of course discussed some other limitations before to meet other concerns we have which would be more related to language.

783 So U.S. programming now. You suggest a weekly limit of 5 per cent, which I read as 6.3 hours per week.

784 MR. McHALE: We would prefer a monthly or annual limit as opposed to a week to give us more flexibility in programming.

785 THE CHAIRPERSON: At your supplementary brief, page 7, you mention 25 hours per month, which is also 5 per cent, which allows you to do a fair amount of U.S. programming in one week or one day. You know, I know you say you are not going to buy the "Titanic", of course not, but --

786 MR. McHALE: Madam Chair, again it allows us flexibility. Going back to our more than likely future partner in the U.S., Worldlink TV, we are looking at news specials. They are associated with ITVS and recent news specials they have had on-air were the elections in Iran, on-the-ground coverage, which was totally absent on CNN, BBC, CBC Newsworld. This is the type of programming and we feel that if the 5 per cent restriction is on a monthly basis it gives us flexibility if a special like this comes along.

787 THE CHAIRPERSON: So a condition of licence you would want to be 5 per cent monthly?

788 MR. McHALE: Monthly.

789 THE CHAIRPERSON: Now, if the Commission wished, for reasons of international trade I guess, to express it as no more than 5 per cent monthly sourced from any one country other than Canada, which would have the -- which would exclude, of course, the programming from other countries --

790 MR. IANNUZZI: Madam Chair, I think that --

791 THE CHAIRPERSON: -- you couldn't get more than 5 per cent monthly from Italy or from China or from --

792 MR. IANNUZZI: Madam Chair, I think that probably even answers the other question that we discussed earlier, so that -- and I can appreciate the political idea that it should encompass and not distinguish one country from another, and therefore, as a commitment on our part that the 5 per cent would be the maximum allowed from any one particular country, or any particular language in this case --

793 THE CHAIRPERSON: Given the state of the world linguistically it would, of course, not resolve whether there is a whole block in Spanish.

794 MR. McHALE: Madam Chair, the 5 per cent limitation on country is almost Solomon-like in its wisdom. It gets over the problem of Spanish language --

795 THE CHAIRPERSON: But Solomon's wife may not be satisfied --

--- Laughter / Rires

796 MR. McHALE: It gets over the problem --

797 THE CHAIRPERSON: -- because Spanish is spoken in a number of countries.

798 MR. McHALE: Yes.

799 THE CHAIRPERSON: The distinguishing factor of the block is language.

800 Now, the feeds. We discussed them this morning quite a bit, but there is little in the application describing the French service.

801 So do I understand from you that the same limitations we have been discussing for the English feed would be imported into the French feed with regard to Canadian content, U.S. programming, subtitling, Canadian content -- I think I said that -- overall and evening, and so on. Would that be fair to say?

802 MR. IANNUZZI: Yes, Madam.

803 THE CHAIRPERSON: Because presumably you wouldn't be back here in Year 3.

804 MR. IANNUZZI: No. Madam Chair, as we mentioned earlier, the key word here is that these are identical services. This is one licence with two identical services and therefore our commitments hold true to that one particular licence. So any condition imposed on one is automatically imposed on the other by virtue that this is one licence.

805 THE CHAIRPERSON: Now, hopefully an easy question.

806 In Schedule C, which is attached to your Promise of Performance, you say that "where possible" you will adhere to the Codes, the industry Codes that usually the Commission required adherence to. Why "where possible"?

807 MR. McHALE: Madam Chair, we will, of course, comply with all Codes.

808 THE CHAIRPERSON: Which raises the question, of course, that quite interesting in your application, I can't recall exactly where, but there is a suggestion that this world programming will give a proper view of various parts of the world of which Canadians may be -- it could be the opposite, could it not, because you may end up covering a part of the world where there is only one view coming out because it will be done in another language, probably by local people?

809 MR. McHALE: Madam Chair, if I could call on Howard Bernstein to talk about how we introduce balanced view in our news program, which is probably the major area of concern with this issue.

810 MR. BERNSTEIN: We hope to introduce balance by providing more than one view, even if that view has to come from outside the country of origin. So using the previous example I talked about earlier, which was Bosnia, obviously any view that comes out of Sarajevo is a very specific view -- a very specific Bosnian point of view. When you see it put up against views from Zagreb or from Belgrade or, even further, if you see it put up against views from Greece, Russia, Germany, then you get a sense of what you -- you are able to put together a sense of what is really going on in that area.

811 THE CHAIRPERSON: Now, another question of detail.

812 As you know, since you filed your application some of the categories have been updated by the Commission, a description of the program categories. What I intend to propose is to ask the Secretary or legal counsel to give you a sheet which was prepared for you with the difference in the description of the categories so that by reply stage you are in a position to tell us which categories you will do and not do and perhaps have that discussion with counsel at reply stage. It is simply a question of aligning the two because of the changes.

813 There will probably be some particular questions about the difference between filler programming and interstitials, which is now a new category. Feel free to ask counsel to explain the difference if you don't --

814 Can I see what you were given? Can I see what you were given?

815 Yes. So we expect you to tell us at reply stage. It will give you at least lunch to look at this, which is easier than discussing it immediately.

816 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: They may need another roll of Rolaids, they are getting low here now.

--- Laughter / Rires

817 THE CHAIRPERSON: The last area of questions is demand which is, of course, of some importance to wrestle with the idea of the appropriateness of the carriage status that you have requested and seen, of course, in light of the programming proposal that you have.

818 Now, the material you have filed with us is in part a Compas Study and using a 1995 Gallup survey. In that Gallup survey 18 per cent of respondents indicated they were "very interested" in the concept and 16 per cent indicated they were "not at all interested".

819 In your recent Compas Study update of 1 May 2000 the same question was asked and 21 per cent of respondents said that they would be "very interested" and 10 per cent said that they would be "not at all interested". That's on page 3. I'm sure you are more familiar -- page 3 of that update.

820 A related question asked respondents if they were interested in international programming that sometimes was in English and French and sometimes in the original language with subtitling and the responses were 17 per cent as "very interested" and 28 per cent "not at all interested". This was in the Gallup survey.

821 How do you justify a request for basic service on the basis or by reference to this level of demand, or of apparent appeal?

822 MR. IANNUZZI: Madam Chair, I was initially responsible for starting this particular -- or commissioning this particular type of survey back some 10 years ago, and each time that we brought forth the workings of the application we did some updates on it, and I can say that there has been a constant awareness, both for the service and the demand, and it has maintained the levels. Our most recent test actually showed that the audience that we have been targeting is still there.

823 Now, for the more details of that, the more scientific side of it, the results from that particular test, which have been made available both to the Commission -- and thank you for allowing us to submit the material -- and also to the intervenors, I would like to call on Michael -- or Conrad?

824 MS DRESHER: No, I think we will call on Conrad Winn of Compas.

825 THE CHAIRPERSON: So if you would focus on page 3, I gather to:

"Interest in watching public affairs, business, sports, movies and entertainment outside of North America..." (As read)

826 This is without mentioning that it won't be in a language of the majority of the market, the total, am I not right, "very interested" is 21 per cent --

827 MR. C. WINN: That's right.

828 THE CHAIRPERSON: -- and "not at all" interested is 10 per cent?

829 MR. C. WINN: That's right.

830 THE CHAIRPERSON: And then, by adding in:

"Would you like to subscribe to such a service if it cost 30 to 38 cents?" (As read)

831 We have "not at all interested" 22 and "very interested" 27. But I am now relating the other numbers, which suggest that there is a decrease when the subtitling is factored in.

832 MR. C. WINN: Well, one of the --

833 THE CHAIRPERSON: Is that fair, to say that there is a decrease in interest when added in is the fact that it will be subtitled?

834 MR. C. WINN: It's a little hypothetical, and one of the problems here is that the moment you ask people any kind of question you are automatically affecting the answer. So to even ask them if subtitles would affect them you could argue is a biased question because you are suggesting that it would merely by asking them.

835 THE CHAIRPERSON: No, but if you are describing a service, I think we have discussed this morning at length that subtitling will be a distinguishing factor. So when you try to ascertain demand it is only fair to say that a lot of the programming will be subtitled. You don't have to say "Would you like it if it is subtitled", but if the question is: Would you be interested in a service from around the world that is subtitled, it is just a correct description of your service.

836 MR. C. WINN: It's a correct description. It's a correct description of one element of the service, but let's start with -- just very briefly, just to raise the issue of subtitles is to imply that there ought to be some resistance.

837 Given that there is an implication that there ought to be some resistance by posing the question, the thing that strikes me is how unresistant they are, because you get 15 per cent of people who said they would even be more likely to watch it and you get another 30 per cent to say they would be somewhat more likely to watch it.

838 The scales here are not the same in the two different types of questions, so it's not really possible to make a comparison.

839 The general impression is the same, which is that there is a lot of interest, as evidenced by the 34 or 35 per cent who say that they would be even more likely to watch it if there were subtitles.

840 THE CHAIRPERSON: But that percentage to you is a very high demand? Thirty-four per cent you are saying.

841 MR. C. WINN: But look at the question. It's not what the demand is, it is "Would you be even more likely than otherwise to want to watch it?" So 35 per cent is the number of people who say they would even be more likely than otherwise.

842 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but the question at first, when subtitling is not involved and you ask:

"Would you be interested in public affairs, business, sports, movies, entertainment from outside of North America?" (As read)

843 I could easily think that that simply is going to be in the language of the majority, and I would say "Great, I will learn more about what is going on around the world and I will understand it without subtitles."

844 Even more, in the Compas study -- now, that questionnaire may be a Gallup questionnaire. I mustn't be unfair to you, Mr. Winn. But that question is asked, yes, in the Gallup questionnaire.

845 Mr. Iannuzzi will understand this, that often when we say "Do you believe that television programming in Canada should be more reflective of the diversity of views and interests of all Canadians", what people read in that is: I am in Toronto, I want to see Asian faces. I'm in Vancouver, I want to see Asian faces on TV. You must represent -- that is how people answer this question. It is extremely broad.

846 Of course we are all fair and we say Riverdale should have some Asian students in it and the news should have the faces of all of Canada, but yet they don't see it as getting programming in a language that they don't speak or understand and that they will be relying on subtitling.

847 So these broad questions are not going to ascertain demand. You have to say what it is, so you can't say that because it's -- I don't know what one can make of such questions to ascertain demand for the service.

848 MR. C. WINN: Well, I won't defend Gallup's question, they are a big enough organization they could hypothetically do --

849 THE CHAIRPERSON: But you did make some conclusions from them.

850 MR. C. WINN: Yes. And I think that, to be quite honest, survey research has its limits, you are quite right, but there are some patterns of behaviour that are so powerful that you don't really need surveys.

851 THE CHAIRPERSON: What is that?

852 MR. C. WINN: One of the patterns is the globalization of people's consciousness today. It is extraordinary the extent to which the planet has become, you know, in McLuhan's famous phrase, e-village. There is a -- by every measure --

853 Just by way of background, please tell me to be quiet if it sounds like a commercial, but Compas does a --

854 THE CHAIRPERSON: I never interrupt.

--- Laughter / Rires

855 MR. C. WINN: Compas does a ton of market research for many media, especially many print media given the newspaper wars in Toronto, and the appetite for global information of all kinds is just galloping and phenomenal. So given all the other information and evidence that we have from other clients this is kind of like, you know, the sun rises in the morning kind of result.

856 I think it's pretty clear that there is a rising and strong appetite for global programming, information, whatever the medium you are talking about, whatever the content. The wording of questions vary, you know, the wording varies from one question to another, but the same general conclusion is there: A really strong appetite.

857 THE CHAIRPERSON: In your original application you also rely on an Angus Reid report that was conducted or commissioned by the Commission itself -- conducted for the Commission and the question talking about programs from a variety of cultural communities sometimes in English and sometimes in other languages, and there was a 71 per cent support, but that was not with a fee, that was a free service. The result was based on assumption of no charge. So that would be your Class 3.

858 MR. C. WINN: Are you asking me or someone else?

859 THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, I thought you were commenting on the demand.

860 MR. C. WINN: Sure.

861 THE CHAIRPERSON: Or someone else. This was also relied upon to support demand without this Angus Reid survey conducted for the Commission, but it didn't factor in 30 cents.

862 MR. IANNUZZI: Madam Chair, using that particular survey was an indicator that there is a demand for some third language programming, which is one of the integral parts of our particular application. We did not state that there is a demand for 76 per cent of our service particularly because of the Angus Reid. We are saying Angus Reid, in his survey commissioned by the CRTC, was to show that there was an increasing demand for third language or world programming or international programming in Canada today.

863 So there is a basis on that that we, from a marketing standpoint, can take some comfort that a segment of our programming, the mere fact that 40 per cent, or thereabouts, is in a language other than English or French, we will find some niche audiences sitting out there throughout Canada.

864 MS DRESHER: Mr. Winn would like to add something.

865 MR. C. WINN: Sure. I think that one of the gists that I am picking up from you, Madam Chairman, is a justified caution about survey research and the way questions are worded, and I think that is quite legitimate. That is why it is so important to have the answers to different kinds of questions worded differently and even from different firms. And if the picture emerges that is roughly the same, irrespective of who asks the question and what was asked in the question, then we can fairly say that is a common and true picture.

866 In our case, we did ask about costing, as you know, and we get very sound results.

867 Costing isn't everything. We have done a lot of demand studies and people are often actually very confused about costing for anything, even products they buy daily.

868 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. On page 3 for example, if I understand this properly, to the question:

"Indicate your interest in watching public affairs, business, sports, movies and entertainment TV outside of North America." (As read)

869 And then the next question, if I understand this correctly:

"How likely would you be to subscribe to such a service if it cost 30 to 38 cents per month?" (As read)

870 The "very interested" is higher and the "not at all interested" is more than double. Is that correct?

871 MR. C. WINN: Yes, that's correct.

872 THE CHAIRPERSON: We have been through this I guess, but do you think that -- I suppose because you updated this material it wouldn't have that much of an effect, but if you had not I would have asked you whether your responses may be different because since 1996, and since some of this information that was used by you to arrive at your conclusion was arrived at before the licensing of a number of third language services, right? Well, at least the Odyssey service, the Asian service. The Asian service is distributed at the moment.

873 MR. C. WINN: Well, I think that --

874 THE CHAIRPERSON: Do you think that has an impact?

875 MR. C. WINN: Well, it's possible that the third language services may contribute in incidental ways to growing the market for world-style television.

876 Certainly if you look at what is happening in terms of student enrolments in the university, a global orientation has been the rage for years. You know, the business programs that offer international programs, you know international overseas education in all sorts of third languages with all sorts of international exposure are the programs that draw like crazy. That is not just true of business programs, it is true of political science programs.

877 THE CHAIRPERSON: But they are not taught in -- they are taught in the mainstream language.

878 MR. C. WINN: Well, actually they are increasingly taught in the third language and university programs are increasingly requiring their students to study these languages --

879 THE CHAIRPERSON: In the original language.

880 MR. C. WINN: -- and without much difficulty because you have this appetite for global affairs that is beyond the issue of maintaining my heritage but rather requiring knowledge and information.

881 THE CHAIRPERSON: I should add as well that not only has the Commission licensed the Odyssey channel, the Asian television, but has also added third language services to its eligible lists of programs. But your view would be that it doesn't make a big difference?

882 Should it make a difference to the regulator?

883 MR. IANNUZZI: I don't think so, because it's a question of choice and I think that that is the Commission's objective, at least it has been that way since I can remember, and therefore the multiple choices -- as I mentioned earlier, you won't see us here before you objecting to any other new services, especially in the digital world.

884 THE CHAIRPERSON: Especially if you were on basic.

885 MR. IANNUZZI: No, that's true. That's true, but the day will come when we too will be moving over to digital.


887 MR. IANNUZZI: But in the interim -- in the interim these particular third language channels, namely Odyssey, Asian, and so on, have also applied for multiple channels within the new Category 2. So what is it they are saying? They are saying that there is room for an increased amount of programming and there too the universe of the need for international third language programming is on the increased.

888 And, as I say, you can be sure we will not be here objecting to their increasing the traffic, because the success of any particular service is not to be an island. If we go back to the earliest Roman days of marketing, all shoe stores were on the same street, and there is truth in that today. We expect them to better their marketing and to be out there with us selling this particular whole new mainstream. That's the future.

889 THE CHAIRPERSON: But what they would say to you is that all shoe stores should be on discretionary, why should your shoe store be on basic?

890 MR. IANNUZZI: Well, that's not true. There are other services, i.e., Telelatino, which has spread itself pretty good, specifically since they were purchased in part by Shaw Cable. A lot of that has stretched them across.

891 THE CHAIRPERSON: That is a change of ownership.

892 MR. IANNUZZI: They are doing well. No, well --

893 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Iannuzzi, Commissioner Langford has some questions and possibly counsel has some questions and then we will allow you to say anything you haven't had a chance to say yet, and that will be short considering by then we will all be very hungry.

894 Commissioner Langford.


896 I think I just got confused a little bit on some of the news and current events thing and so my first question is for Mr. Bernstein, although obviously anyone of your team can add what they like.

897 Did I understand you to say that in Year 3 when you commence operations in Quebec in French that you will have still only one -- let's call it a news program, if I may -- and then just subtitle it?

898 Maybe I should just ask you to explain for me precisely what will happen Year 3 with regard to the news.

899 MR. BERNSTEIN: First let me say that nothing will happen in Year 3 because we are going to start in Year 1 doing our show. Twenty per cent of that show minimum will already be in French. We don't see any need to go further than that in Year 3. In fact, all of our service in terms of information programming will be a minimum of 20 per cent French from Year 1.

900 The program itself, and all of our programs, will be designed to go to both French and English in the very same way. It's one program for French and English, it's not two separate programs.

901 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Your Peter Mansbridge, whoever that will be -- will you have a Peter Mansbridge? Will you have a news reader, a Lloyd Robertson, heaven forbid?

902 MR. BERNSTEIN: Because of the new categories it's not -- let me take a step back.

903 It's a 2A program, not a Category 1 program. It's an analysis program. But yes, we will have a host who will have to be bilingual.

904 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: That same host, then, will do -- I keep thinking of it as both shows, but of course it's just one show, is that it?

905 MR. BERNSTEIN: It's just one show.

906 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: And it always will be just one show?

907 MR. BERNSTEIN: That's correct.

908 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Okay. That clears it up. I just couldn't quite see the sort of subtitling on top of the subtitling, but it's your baby.

909 MR. BERNSTEIN: Can I just have a chance to clear that up?

910 There will never be subtitling on top of subtitling. There is just one show. There are two feeds. On one feed, let's use the English feed as an example. On that English feed when someone speaks French there will be English subtitles. There is no need to subtitle the English in English. There is only --

911 On the French feed now, to look at the other side, when someone speaks English, yes, it will be -- but only on the feed, not in terms of the program itself.

912 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: All right. Well, that clears it up. Thank you.

913 With regard to dubbing, I think a number of people have said today -- but I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I think I have heard this morning that a number of your team has said there will be no dubbing. Dubbing is not in your minds, you are going to stick with the subtitling. Is that correct?

914 MR. McHALE: Our commitment is to always broadcast in the original language of production and add subtitles if appropriate.

915 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Okay. Now, we have also heard Mr. Iannuzzi indicate that he -- I may now be putting words into his mouth, but that we are moving inevitably towards a digital world, that though you are looking for basic analog carriage today inevitably all signals will be digitized and the FCC will get its way.

916 Acting on that assumption, there would then be quite an easy route to have a second channel with a second language, once you are into a digital world, so would you then anticipate moving away from subtitles and moving into a totally different way of presenting the second language as a second language feed? Dubbing in other words.

917 MR. McHALE: No, we don't envisage dubbing. I think our audience will prefer to see programs in the original language of production. I think what is key for us is the subtitling. I would go back to our demo reel, and I don't know if you noticed, the last segment the subtitles were totally different, they were very warm, they were colour corrected, easy to read, they were inviting. They were not intrusive.

918 Part of the resistance to subtitling by some people is that we are watching subtitles that were created for a cinematic version and it does not translate very well to conventional television.

919 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Well, let's go forward six or seven years and assuming, for the sake of argument, that the FCC's schedule in the United States has a spill-over effect here and we are all going digital at that point, and there is a second feed available, would you anticipate using that second audio feed to put language on as well as language?

920 MR. IANNUZZI: Yes, Commissioner. The point is that we certainly would not shy away from any technological change that is advantageous to the viewing audience.

921 Speaking to the question of digital, we are building a plant which is totally digital. In fact, we would be satisfying those operators in the digital world, carriers, because our programming is digital. It is the analog carriers that will have to turn us down into analog to start with.

922 But in the future, and the future is certainly just around the corner, where the digital world permits multiple channels for voice carriage, as an example -- and they have been using this in Japan for some time where they have the A and B channels.

923 So that even though we are subtitling for those who might be -- who have that ability to take the language, and if the programming was available to us with the dubbed version, then that is a novelty that one would want to offer his subscribers, the possibility of saying "You either see the subtitle or you can take the" -- when available.

924 So it wouldn't be our mainstay. Our mainstay is still to reach the maximum number of people, with or without digital, is to have the programming subtitled in English or French.

925 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I want you to understand that I'm not acting as an advocate for the subtitlers of the world here, I'm just simply looking for an idea of what your programming will look and sound like.

926 Just, finally, one very tiny question, but I think, Mr. McHale, you mentioned buying programming through an agreement with the Australians, through your sister service in Australia. Does their subtitling work? Are they turning around and calling all of the women "Sheilas" or are there any problems with that? Do you have to re-do the subtitling for Canada?

927 MR. McHALE: Mr. Commissioner, SBS has gained an international reputation in subtitling. They pioneered the whole concept of subtitling, or quality subtitling. They found that when they acquired programming originally with subtitles that the quality was not attractive to the audience. Mainstream audiences were tuning out.

928 Now what SBS is doing -- not only with us, they are going to do it with Worldlink in the United States and they are talking to other countries, English speaking countries -- they licence the actual subtitles they create. So if we go out and acquire an international program and it has already been subtitled by SBS, we will have an arrangement where we will licence the subtitles from them.

929 So, yes, their subtitles are the best in the world. They have earned an incredible reputation for their subtitling.

930 MR. IANNUZZI: They are international.

931 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I read that inference, that they have somehow found a kind of common English-speak here somewhere. It's better than the --

932 MR. McHALE: To give an idea of their success, their audience over a six year period from the mid-80s up to the '90s, the numbers that I have, increased by 300 per cent. They have found that their audience is increasingly mainstream, mainstream, mainstream, and the make-up of their audience mirrors the make-up of us in Australia. Sixty per cent of their audience is Australian-born and something like 70 per cent of Australians are Australian-born. So their audience is very, very mainstream.


934 Thanks very much.

935 THE CHAIRPERSON: I don't know what Commissioner Langford has against lots of "Sheilas".

--- Laughter / Rires


937 MR. BATSTONE: Thank you, Madam Chair.

938 I would like to start out with just a few questions about the feeds. We have gone over this and I would just like to be perfectly clear.

939 When you talk about the French and English feeds being identical, are they truly identical or just nearly identical? There is a bit of doubt in my mind because this morning we were talking that there might be some differences. Will there be any differences there?

940 MR. McHALE: Overall, the two feeds are identical. However, we may decide, for scheduling flexibility, to schedule a program on the French service at a different time than the English service, and that is just for programming. But overall they are identical. The concept is, this is the exact same program, for the first time Canadians can see the same program and understand it if it's in a non-French/English language by looking at the subtitles.

941 MR. IANNUZZI: I might add, if I may, the fact of promoting -- again because this is one licence and two services we will be cross-promoting, assuming for a moment that because hockey in Quebec is played at a different hour, for whatever reason, that the programming -- the news programming is an hour later on the French channel than it is on the English channel, we will be promoting the fact that this newscast can be seen at a later hour in French.

942 There are a tremendous number of bilingual people available for our type of programming that would want to know that they are not missing a program here but certainly could pick it up an hour later, not unlike what Newsworld does each day.

943 MR. BATSTONE: So you don't see any -- I'm just trying to look at this from the regulatory standpoint, for instance logging of Canadian content. I mean, it's the same programs, would you see there be any problem, for instance, if the shifting took it to a different -- I guess a different day or it would have to be in an entirely different week or something I guess.

944 MR. McHALE: No, we don't see a problem. The shifts will be minor. Overall, within a month more than likely the feeds will be identical in terms of overall programming.

945 MR. BATSTONE: Then similarly with the east and west feeds of the English service. Would those be identical, just there is a differential in time which its aired?

946 MR. McHALE: Just a difference for the time.

947 MR. BATSTONE: Just following up on something which was mentioned this morning, you said that the French service would be free outside of Quebec. Is that right, from Year 1?

948 MR. McHALE: It depends on when we start. The business plan calls for starting the French service in Year 3, so that would occur at that time.

949 MR. BATSTONE: Thanks.

950 What proportion of the programming will originally be in English and French?

951 MR. McHALE: All of the Canadian content -- well, with some exceptions -- will be in either English or French, so that accounts for a significant proportion of the production. We are talking about 50 per cent in prime time and over the course of the licence reaching, I think it was 50-60 per cent. So that will always -- or more than likely be in English or French.

952 Then, of the rest of the programming, the suggestion from Madam Chair was that we go to limitation on a national basis --

953 THE CHAIRPERSON: No, Madam did not make any suggestion. Madam asked you what you thought about it.

954 MR. McHALE: We liked her suggestion of a national quota rather than a language quota, which would give us the flexibility of English language programming from an Ireland, from Scandinavia, Jamaica, Australia, New Zealand.

955 MR. BATSTONE: Of that non-Canadian programming, how much do you perceive would be English or French?

956 MR. McHALE: I'm sorry, I can't hear you.

957 MR. BATSTONE: I'm sorry.

958 Of the non-Canadian produced programming, how much do you think would be in English or French? Do you have a sense of that?

959 MR. McHALE: The U.S. content, which is 5 per cent English, although there may be some Spanish language programming from the U.S. The percentage would be quite low. I don't know the exact number.

960 MR. BATSTONE: The next question has to do with access.

961 Under the existing Broadcast Distribution Undertaking Regulations you may be aware the English feed of your service would have access rights in Anglophone markets and the French feed would have access rights in Francophone markets, however the English feed wouldn't have rights for distribution in Francophone markets under those regulations. Were you expecting mandatory carriage of both feeds in all markets?

962 MR. IANNUZZI: Yes. If we stayed with the interest of having the largest number of Canadians and not necessarily disenfranchising anyone at a particular given time, it behooves me to understand how, if we brought in the English service into Quebec and waited three years to bring in, then, the French service and to arbitrarily tell the cable operator "Well, now you can do what you want with the English service." I think that it would take more than the Referendum to resolve that particular problem.

963 So I am saying that -- or asking and recommending that we do have exactly that, that it is basic service in English Canada for the English channel and basic for the French channel in Quebec and that both services then are on a upper tier and available to the cable operators to do exactly that.

964 MR. BATSTONE: But if you were licensed with the carriage model that you are proposing, it wouldn't be a problem for the French feed in a Francophone market or for the English feed in an Anglophone market. It's the opposite situation. You have the English feed --

965 MR. IANNUZZI: That's correct.

966 MR. BATSTONE: -- in the Francophone market which you will have for the first two years. The access rules in the current BDU regs don't contemplate that situation. They don't contemplate your having a mandated access in that situation.

967 MR. IANNUZZI: No. This is why we would accept a modified dual status to be able to negotiate in the best interest of the viewer or subscriber -- it's always a question of there are viewers and subscribers, that the point is that no one be disenfranchised, nor does anyone have to be packaged off with someone and go, say in Quebec, from 30 cents to pay $8.60 for a package.

968 So these are all the things that sensible cable operators and ourselves, trying to be sensible and reasonable ourselves, I'm sure that we could come to an understanding on that.

969 MR. BATSTONE: So, in essence, it would be discretionary.

970 MR. IANNUZZI: Correct.

971 MR. McHALE: Our hope is that by not having a subscriber fee attached to the services you are talking about that the MDUs will make the decision to carry the services on a high penetration tier.

972 MR. BATSTONE: I would just like to clarify something in respect of the commitment you made for Canadian feature films.

973 You said 20 per cent of the feature films would be Canadian. Would you be prepared to accept that as a condition of licence?

974 MR. IANNUZZI: I'm sorry, I didn't get that.

975 MR. BATSTONE: Feature films. You committed, I believe in the application, that 20 per cent of feature films on the service would be Canadian. Would you accept that as a condition of licence?

976 MR. IANNUZZI: We would like that to read, if at all possible, a maximum of one film per week in any one month, or an average over the year might be best because of the way we buy films and the amount of repeats. So the average would be 52 films per year.

977 MR. BATSTONE: So a minimum of one film per week. Is that what you're saying?

978 MR. IANNUZZI: No, it's a maximum of one film.

979 MR. BATSTONE: I'm sorry, you are showing one film per week. Is that it?

980 MR. IANNUZZI: Yes, m'hm.

981 MR. BATSTONE: How many of those will be Canadian?

982 MR. IANNUZZI: We are saying of all our films, one film will be Canadian. At least one.

983 MR. BATSTONE: And how many films will you show?

984 MR. IANNUZZI: Well, there are seven, as many as 14 a week.

985 MR. McHALE: We have seven original broadcasts scheduled in the week, so one of the seven will be Canadian. We will also repeat.

986 MR. BATSTONE: Okay. You are not suggesting that there should be a maximum on the Canadian content for films, are you?

987 MR. IANNUZZI: No. No.

988 MR. BATSTONE: What you are committing to is having one out of seven films, and whatever the associated percentage is, be Canadian in each week.

989 MR. McHALE: Yes.

990 MR. BATSTONE: I see.

991 My last question, aside from the issue which Commissioner Wylie raised with respect to the content categories which we can deal with in reply, is I guess a more theoretical question.

992 I just wanted to get a sense from you what you feel the test for basic carriage should be. What should the Commission look at when determining -- in a theoretical sense, what would be the appropriate level, whether it is demand or whatever, that the Commission should look to as sort of the precondition for something being carried on basic in a mandatory way?

993 MR. IANNUZZI: If I may, Madam Chairman, to read into the record, I think that maybe at this time I could try to make this compelling case for the question of dual service.

994 THE CHAIRPERSON: I have another specific question on revenues, but you can eventually.

995 MR. IANNUZZI: Okay. Thank you.

996 MR. BATSTONE: To the extent that that will answer the question I asked, that's fine.

997 MR. IANNUZZI: Yes, it will.

998 MR. BATSTONE: It doesn't matter when.

999 THE CHAIRPERSON: I would like to go back to revenues.

1000 When I look at the sheet that we were working from before and I was asking you about how the revenue was calculated, in Year 1 and Year 2 in Quebec it's $1.80, so it's 15 cents for the feed, and instead of 80 per cent penetration you have 50 per cent penetration. However, that is then added to total basic cable revenue.

1001 I understood somehow this to be a business plan based on the English feed being on basic cable in Years 1 and 2 for 15 cents and now I am a bit confused as to you may have said no, it would be on an upper tier. Would that only be when the French feed is available? But in Years 1 and 2 you would expect basic carriage at 15 cents unless the cable operator and you agree to putting it on a higher tier.

1002 MR. McHALE: Madam Chair, when we prepared the projections for the Quebec market for the English language service we envisioned that we would get carriage on systems that had a significant portion of English language speakers, namely in Montreal or the eastern townships, which is how we arrived at the 50 per cent of subscribers.

1003 THE CHAIRPERSON: Fifty per cent. But my question is, because of what counsel raised, is it dual status or modified dual status, because is this your expectation of how many of these cabled homes would receive it on basic because the cable operator chose to, was not obliged to?

1004 MR. IANNUZZI: Madam Chair, if I may answer.

1005 In 1996 the thought of how we were dealing with cable operators at that time and the kind of reception that we felt we would probably receive from them in the Province of Quebec that our going-in position in order to be licensed and in order to show that the idea of a French channel was in no way tokenism, that that was hard to get some people at that time in Quebec to believe. Today the story is totally different. You will have an opportunity of hearing that from others.

1006 So that when we decided what kind of revenues and penetration would we get in the Province of Quebec, it wasn't the question of how much but of how little could we go in there with in order to at least gain their attention and say that this is going to be a national service and not try to be an English language service in English Canada and disregard Quebec for the period of three years until such time as we might find a partner that would understand our concept and believe in it sufficient enough to warrant investment, and so on.

1007 Times have changed. Our understanding with a number of people within the independent production industry within the communities within Quebec and Francophones outside, their need and their understanding of what this now means in the context of Canada today, why we have had more support letters from the Province of Quebec and outside that has given us a totally new view on exactly how our service is not only being understood but is being demanded, and it is starting to reflect in those figures that we had back in 1996 of what people on the Island of Montreal were willing to take.

1008 So I stand before you today and say, yes, things have changed. We are looking at a totally different understanding of our service in Montreal and Quebec and we are saying that not only should the service probably be brought forward to today's times rather than waiting another three years, but the fact is that there is an understanding in the Province of Quebec from the cable operators that I think they understand that if the service is going to be on basic in English-speaking Canada that it has a rightful place of being on basic in the Province of Quebec.

1009 No one has really come out and said "No way, Charlie", they have just said "If you are licensed", and so on, and Madam here has had a recent discussion with Vidéotron that their views haven't changed too, too, too much on that, but because they have a better understanding of the service and the demand for it in the Province of Quebec.

1010 So I say to you, yes, we maybe at that time went in and said, "By God, if we are lucky if we get half of the market on basic at half the rate, that is probably a good going-in position in Quebec".

1011 But that was 1996, Madam Chairman. Today, in discussing with cable operators, there is no longer such thing as saying "Well, Quebec is different and we want 50 per cent discount because half of our people speak French and the other half, or thereabouts, speaks what's-his-name and therefore require a discount.

1012 So I'm saying, if we are going to be licensed tomorrow, or in six weeks, the point is that we should understand that this service, in order to reach as many Canadians as possible, whether they are Francophone, Anglophone or allophones, it is in the interest that we have a common dual status outside of Quebec and dual status inside of Quebec for the respective services and the modified -- in that case then modified dual for the upper tiers, negotiable with the cable operator.


1014 Mr. Iannuzzi, answer yes or no.

1015 You are asking for dual status for the English feed in English Canada?

1016 MR. IANNUZZI: Yes.

1017 THE CHAIRPERSON: You are asking for dual status for the English feed in Quebec in Years 1 and 2?

1018 MR. IANNUZZI: Yes.

1019 THE CHAIRPERSON: You are asking for dual status for the French feed from in Quebec starting Year 3?

1020 MR. IANNUZZI: Correct.

1021 THE CHAIRPERSON: And you are asking for modified dual status for the French feed outside of Quebec --

1022 MR. IANNUZZI: Yes.

1023 THE CHAIRPERSON: -- whenever it is up and running.

1024 MR. IANNUZZI: Right.

1025 THE CHAIRPERSON: Of course, we say "Quebec", but there are other Francophone markets as defined in the regulations.

1026 MR. IANNUZZI: Then there is one more that says -- if I may?

1027 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Commissioner Langford.

1028 MR. IANNUZZI: The English service in Quebec on modified dual.

1029 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, okay. Now we are clear.

1030 So go ahead and answer the philosophical question and anything else you think you can say between now and 10 after 1:00.

1031 MR. IANNUZZI: I only have two minutes here actually.

1032 THE CHAIRPERSON: My watch says five to.

1033 MR. IANNUZZI: Oh, it says five to. Well, I only have --

1034 THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, no. So five after 1:00.

1035 MR. IANNUZZI: Okay.

1036 THE CHAIRPERSON: Five after 1:00 I think is reasonable.

1037 MR. IANNUZZI: Thank you.

1038 THE CHAIRPERSON: We hear your.

1039 MR. IANNUZZI: Thank you, Madam Chairman, and thank you for the opportunity to actually make the case which we believe is extremely compelling for basic service. I say "basic" because that is the general term, but in our case it is dual status in this particular case.

1040 From the outset let us say that World Télémonde as a service could be considered the last spike in the system in that it will give the notion of a complete and balanced broadcasting system.

1041 The mandate that we are asking for has been referred to by some as a special mandate because it carries a number of commitments that go well beyond those of a conventional or specialty television. In essence, we are really offering two national services for the cost of one, two identical services in both official languages, while still maintaining a 45 per cent in third languages thanks to the state-of-the-art subtitles.

1042 This could be considered also a special double mandate, because while the service is of general interest, appealing to the widest audience, its information and public affairs programming will, by the sheer nature of the subjects covered, reflect the multiracial and multicultural nature of our country, something other basic services have not accomplished to any degree.

1043 Furthermore, World Télémonde meets the Commissions objectives effectively, in that diversity is achieved by filling the huge void in quality international programming not seen by Canadians, and still more diversity by increasing the number of Canadian stories, perspectives and views in the system.

1044 On the other hand, quality in Canadian programming will be achieved by making a maximum use of independent creators, with an average of over one-third of our annual revenues being spent on Canadian programming. Quality is also achieved in international fare through the widest range of sources available for acquiring the best programs produced outside North America.

1045 Further, World Télémonde meets the high Canadian content requirement and goes one step further by committing to a maximum of only 5 per cent programming from any one world, including the United States.

1046 In doing so it achieves another objective, which is the exportation of Canadian programs and services. Whilst this may apply to a lot of countries it really applies mostly to America.

1047 In fact, World Télémonde will be the most exportable Canadian service to the United States, and elsewhere, because of its relevancy and lack of U.S. programming or programming from any one country. We will not, as they say, be bringing coals to Newcastle, as would be the case for most conventional and specialty services today.

1048 World Télémonde recognizes the more global world and the true nature of the Canadian population, making it complementary to other services and, as such, it will be original and not have to copy program ideas or style.

1049 Madam Chair, we will have, in effect, built the proverbial better mousetrap. And, yes, we expect viewers to beat a path to our service, especially those who continually say "Gee, there is nothing much on TV tonight, again".

1050 I wish to conclude by underlining the fact that World Télémonde's viability can only be assured through the required appropriate carriage and that its special mandate can only be fulfilled if it reaches the total of all available Canadian households from Victoria to St. John's without any sidetracking, if possible.

1051 Madam Chair, the nature of our service alone warrants the need for the requested carriage and for the regulatory consideration that deems World Télémonde, quote, "a national service in the public interest".

1052 Thank you.

1053 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Iannuzzi, Ms Dresher, and all your colleagues for your co-operation.

1054 We will take an hour for lunch. Mr. Iannuzzi gave us an extra five minutes.

1055 It is now 1:00 by my watch. We will be back at 2:00 and we will hear the interventions and conclude this agenda.

1056 Is there something wrong with my watch?

1057 COMMISSIONER WILSON: My watch says 10 after.

1058 THE CHAIRPERSON: Maybe my battery is running down.

1059 Okay, then, 10 after by Commissioner Wilson's watch. Ten after 2:00.

--- Upon recessing at 1305 / Suspension à 1305

--- Upon resuming at 1412 / Reprise à 1412

1060 THE CHAIRPERSON: Order, please. welcome back.

1061 We have translation now and any party who would like equipment for translation can get it from the technician at the table here to my right.

1062 Also, if anyone had a problem with this morning and needs some help because of the fact that we didn't have one, please speak to us.

1063 Nous avons maintenant une interprète. Alors ceux qui en ont besoin peuvent obtenir l'équipement du technicien à ma droite et si quelqu'un a eu de la difficulté à ce matin à cause de l'absence de l'interprète, vous êtes bienvenus à nous faire part de vos problèmes et nous verrons ce que nous pouvons faire pour vous aider.

1064 We will now proceed with the intervenors.

1065 Mr. Secretary, please.

1066 MR. CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

1067 Just a reminder that intervenors are allowed 10 minutes for their presentations. We would appreciate your co-operation.

1068 Our first intervenor this afternoon on behalf of Telelatino Network, Mr. John Montesano.

1069 Mr. Montesano.


1070 MR. MONTESANO: Good afternoon, Madam Chair, Commissioners. I am the Director of Programming and Market Development at TLN and I am going to be giving an oral presentation today on behalf of Aldo Di Felice, the President of TLN who, unfortunately, could not be here. I believe there are copies of my notes and they were handed out.

1071 I would be happy to answer any questions at the end of my brief presentation. I will do the best I can to answer those questions and if I can't do so I will take them with me and make sure I follow up within 24 hours.

1072 We appreciate the opportunity to be able to highlight to you today the details of Telelatino's objections to World Television Network's application to the Commission.

1073 Telelatino is a Canadian national ethnic specialty service that recently celebrated its 15th anniversary and offers programming in Italian and Spanish.

1074 On April 24th, 2000, WTM delivered a written reply to the numerous interventions filed with the Commission regarding the WTM application. It is our respectful submission to you here today that the WTM reply is an inadequate response to the legitimate objections of all Canadian ethnic specialty services, especially the objections expressed by Telelatino Network in our April 13th written intervention.

1075 Telelatino, like any of the other Canadian ethnic specialty services, would be among those in support of the policy statements invoked by WTM, that the Canadian broadcasting system should serve the needs and interests and reflect the presence of minority ethnic groups in Canada. The ethnocultural diversity of Canadian society is a reality that inevitably must be present in the Canadian broadcasting system itself. We applaud and support all initiatives that truly have the effect of meeting this goal.

1076 However, the proposed WTM service seeks undeserved preferential licensing terms at the direct expense and jeopardy of Canada's ethnic specialties, including the Telelatino service.

1077 WTM claims that:

"...the subscriber and audience base of the third language specialty services will not be threatened in the least..."

by its service.

1078 It goes so far as to suggest the WTM service:

"...will increase advertiser interest in the wider ethnic audience and consequently increase revenues for these services."

1079 These assertions are wholly unsupported by any objective verifiable data. All of Canada's ethnic specialties are serving audiences that are primarily based in Southern Ontario. If any such advertising "halo effect" was possible, it would already have happened as a result of the presence of CFMT's multilingual/multicultural service, not to mention the activities of other services which regularly broadcast third language, subtitled programming, such as Showcase.

1080 Furthermore, WTM claims that:

"...the occasional presence of an Indian film will not threaten subscription to Asian Television just as the broadcast of stand-up comedy on CBC has not stopped the Comedy Network from gaining a great deal of success".

1081 As we in ethnic broadcasting know all too well, WTM's reply misses one obvious point: Splitting English speaking audiences in Canada is sustainable because of the large size of the audiences, whereas splitting ethnic audiences in Canada undermines the viability of services such as TLN that are mandated and restricted to serving a designated and relatively small niche.

1082 We feel obliged to rebut three more broad assertions made in WTM's reply that are unsubstantiated and misleading.

1083 First, the WTM reply claims that WTM is not an ethnic service and will not present ethnic programming and so is therefore not duplicative.

1084 Telelatino finds it objectionable that WTM should rely on a technicality and so loosely interpret the Commission's definition of an "ethnic program" to support the proposition that an ethnic program which is subtitled does not compete for the same ethnic audience as a third language program without subtitles. Although, WTM claims that it aims for a broad audience, there is no doubt that a prominent target group for such programming is one that speaks the third language in question.

1085 Furthermore, to proclaim that this strategy is something new is simply inaccurate. Telelatino itself has aired subtitled programs from around the world on a regular basis for several years, including but not limited to films, telenovelas, specials, North American Hispanic series, and Italian soap operas.

1086 Secondly, WTM claims that its service is a:

"...significantly different service than any of the existing ethnic specialty services"

because it would broadcast more Canadian content.

1087 It argues that:

" more than 15 per cent of any broadcast month or of the evening hours in any month will be devoted to any one language".

1088 WTM speaks of the:

"...importance of filling a large void in the broadcasting system".

1089 But WTM has chosen not to define the boundaries of its proposed service to ensure it complements rather than undermines Telelatino and other ethnic specialty services. Instead, WTM continues to insist that it be permitted to be directly and substantially competitive with and duplicative of Telelatino's Italian and Spanish language service at least 30 per cent of the time. This corresponds to over seven hours per day of Italian and Spanish language programming and almost two hours in prime time.

1090 I realize those numbers are a bit off from our conversation this morning.

1091 Anyway, over and above that, Italian and Hispanic-oriented, English language programs on WTM have no limit whatsoever. If WTM chooses to take advantage of this broad licence, then its service will certainly undermine TLN's service without providing any new programming.

1092 Finally, another WTM assertion that must be challenged is their claim that:

"WTM's program suppliers will be from various independent production companies and will therefore not affect the cost of purchased programming or erode revenues".

1093 This statement is not only untrue in TLN's case, but also skirts the issue of whether WTM, under its proposed licence terms, has ensured itself the ability to engage in predatory pricing of ethnic commercial advertising.

1094 Considering the number of years that WTM's application has been pending, the applicant has had ample opportunity to define the boundaries of its proposed service so as to complement rather than undermine the valuable contribution of Canada's ethnic specialty services. Because WTM has been unable to do so, we reassert our objections to the licensing of this service on the proposed terms.

1095 We thank the Commission for this opportunity to present our view.

1096 That will be all.

1097 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Montesano.

1098 Commissioner Langford, please.

1099 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Well, thank you for that and thanks for coming out, as they used to say.

1100 You were here this morning. Did you hear the whole --

1101 MR. MONTESANO: Yes, I was.

1102 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Oh, great. Okay. Obviously you prepared these remarks before --

1103 MR. MONTESANO: Yes.

1104 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: -- which is all you could do.

1105 Did you hear anything this morning that would make you want to temper them at all?

1106 MR. MONTESANO: No, not really. I mean, I think there seems to be a real philosophical debate here that is not getting through to the management team of WTM, in my opinion, in my humble opinion, and that is that this is a direct competitor. Whether it is two hours a night or -- whenever it chooses to program Italian or Spanish language programming, subtitled or not, it will be competing directly with us and it should be seen as such. So I think that that didn't seem to be an admission on their part to begin with.

1107 Secondly, their terminology of this new mainstreaming is a bit problematic as far as I am concerned because we call it at TLN the mainstreaming ethnicity and I think this is an overall phenomena that has been happening in North America for a long time now and it is not unique to WTM's plans or its course of action.

1108 Let me give you a few examples. Most recently we aired -- we broadcast the Latin Billboard Awards this past Sunday and we took ads out in the Toronto Star and we had a little write-up in Macleans magazine to help promote the fact that this is programming that we are convinced a lot of non-Hispanic people will watch, even though they won't necessarily follow the language.

1109 So I think in terms of our overall strategy in terms of how we are -- I think Madam Chair said it best when you talked about the fact that a lot of Canadian ethnic specialty services consider themselves to be mainstream. That's how I see it.

1110 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: But did you subtitle that programming?

1111 MR. MONTESANO: No, we didn't. What we did was, we complemented it with ongoing English language commentary before the breaks so that non-Hispanic viewers can follow on and figure out what was happening. So we had people who work at the station providing English language commentary throughout.

1112 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I just want you to know before I start here, I am not advocating for the applicants. They have a good team here and lots of support, but it's helpful if I try --

1113 MR. MONTESANO: Absolutely.

1114 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: -- to put their position to you because then you can respond directly to that. So I am not a member of the team.

1115 MR. MONTESANO: If I can just add one thing.

1116 I'm sorry to interrupt, but I heard some discussions this morning in terms of changes in percentages and things like that that I have to go back to my team with before I can give you, you know, any definitive response to that, those kinds of discussions.

1117 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So you may not be as hard and fast, because there were some -- I was going to ask you, would you agree there were some considerable reductions, for example in percentage of any one language --

1118 MR. MONTESANO: Yes. Yes.

1119 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: -- any one programming type. Does that give you at least some comfort or are they headed in the right direction, in your view?

1120 MR. MONTESANO: Well, they are definitely headed in the right direction, but to go from 15 per cent to 3 per cent is headed in the right direction.

1121 But, like I said, I am not at liberty right now -- I would have to see it as part of an overall plan that takes into account a lot of the other things that were discussed this morning and take it back to my team.

1122 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: One of the discussions you must have had with your team, and I understand that you are very clear that you can't shift gears here for the whole -- for your intervenor as a whole, but you must have discussed with them before you came the notion that the applicant feels, or seems to feel, that a good part of their audience will not in fact be third language speakers, that there will be English or French speakers or even, you know, if it's a Spanish program, Japanese speakers, but non-Spanish speakers who, because of the subtitling and some knowledge of French or English, will go there, will say "Well, there is another option. I don't have to watch `Seinfeld' reruns or the `Simpsons' tonight, I could try something from Japan for a change."

1123 Does that give you some comfort in the sense that they are not targeting third language audiences necessarily, but a wider, much wider audience?

1124 MR. MONTESANO: Well, again I think if they -- I think what we are looking for is more specificity on their part in terms of what the definitions of those restrictions are.

1125 Before this morning there was no discussion in terms of it was 15 per cent of their overall schedule and the types of hours we were talking about were very substantive. If those hours are dramatically reduced, then I think there is a discussion to be had.

1126 But I think there is a bigger issue, which is their position that subtitled Italian language and subtitled Spanish language programming somehow is not competitive with us, and I think that is where there seems to be some kind of a conflict or some kind of a divide.

1127 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: But I don't want to reduce this to, you know, sort of a battle of analogies, but McDonald's and Burger King, Wendy's, they are all surviving out there. Surely you can't take the position that you own Italian and Spanish programming forevermore.

1128 MR. MONTESANO: No. It's not the position that we own, it's the position that I think in terms of the policies of the CRTC it is for them to be recognized as a direct competitor. Whenever they would be programming Italian and Spanish language programming they would be directly competing with us, which I think goes against the pre-existing policy. That is the one thing that is in question.

1129 But, more importantly, I think we do consider ourselves to be the experts in Italian and Spanish language programming. I think we understand that we have a very specific role in Canadian broadcasting and it is a role that we try to take full advantage of within the context of its restrictions.

1130 We are restricted, we understand that. We are not complaining about that. But when someone is allowed to compete with us with added bonuses and added support systems that we don't have, it creates real problems for us. It creates real economic problems for us, and I think that is the position that we take, that -- well, I will leave it at that.

1131 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: It's not a competitor necessarily, but it's a level playing field that you are looking for.

1132 MR. MONTESANO: Absolutely. Absolutely.

1133 I think we would be wanting to have more discussions in terms of what -- how they would be restricted in terms of acknowledging the fact that whether it is two hours a night or four hours a night, whenever their programming ventures into Italian and Spanish language programming, whether it is subtitled or not, they would be competing with us. Because I will tell everyone here that subtitling has been part of the history of TLN and it will definitely be part of the future of TLN.

1134 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Can you give me a little on that? How much of your programming are you subtitling -- we will just deal with prime time -- say into English or French?

1135 MR. MONTESANO: Well, it's not a substantial amount, but it's definitely growing. For instance, let me give you a few examples.

1136 One, we had an international film slot that we developed over the last couple of years so every Sunday night we had subtitled films from Spain -- from Latin America, Spain, Italy. So that has been two years in existence. We have been doing that for two years and I think we aired about 20 to 25 films this past season.

1137 We also had a long running telenovela Sunday nights at 8:00 that recently ran its course and we replaced that with programming that we purchased from Telemundo(ph) that was a subtitled dramatic series, which was a remake of "Charlie's Angels" in Spanish and a remake of "Starsky & Hutch" in Spanish. So there is an 8:00 Sunday night slot that is subtitled.

1138 We have also developed -- and this is unprecedented in terms of TLN. We are working with some government agencies to develop with independent producers programming that is Italian and Hispanic theme that will be Italian -- that will include Italian and Spanish language and will be fully subtitled. Any time you hear Italian or Spanish in these programs -- they will be feature length documentaries. We have nine in development right now. Two of them are completed and we are hoping to launch a series of these programs in the fall.

1139 So there are special programs like that primarily that we have done to date.

1140 We also have an ongoing miniseries called "Un Posto Al Sole", that is an Italian-produced miniseries that is being sent to us now for the first time with English subtitles. So starting in about a month or two, I believe, this will be a half hour slot every single day, Italian language, English subtitled programming.

1141 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: You heard Mr. Bernstein speak about kind of what he portrayed as a very unique approach to news, current events, getting out around the world, getting the other side of crisis situations, Ethiopia, Somalia --

1142 MR. MONTESANO: Yes.

1143 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: -- Bosnia, no matter where it would be, trying to bring in something completely different, all types of languages with a host that would somehow bring it together with interviews. Do you feel an invasion from that front, or is that so completely different that you -- granted, sooner or later there is going to be somebody speaking Italian in that, but there are going to be people speaking everything.

1144 MR. MONTESANO: Absolutely.

1145 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Are you bothered by that? Does that infringe on where you feel your territory is?

1146 MR. MONTESANO: Well, there are two issues in that. We are not allowed to do local news as a condition of our licence, so in terms of them producing any locally produced news programs, that is something that TLN cannot do, on the one hand.

1147 On the other hand, we do have live programming, news programming that comes in, and we also have programming through CNN Espaniole which, as far as we are concerned, gives people a pretty wide spectrum of opinion. They are not only limited to specific news programs, we also get a series of news commentaries and -- quite a lot actually, I think, on both the Spanish and the Italian side. So anything that, again, ventured into those two territories we would consider to be direct competition.

1148 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Again, not trying to make their case for them, they made it themselves, but it seems to me that until you turn on the TLN news of the night you are not going to know whether there is a Spanish or Italian segment, it might all be Singapore and, you know, who knows, wherever the news is happening that day. So it's not the sort of thing, I would argue, that your viewers could plan to watch. I mean, they would have to surf over and take a peak maybe.

1149 MR. MONTESANO: If that's the case, that's one thing. If that isn't the case then, you know -- I think if there was continual preprogrammed, promoted Italian language, Spanish language news properties, then that is where we would have a concern. If it was something that just happened to be part of an overall news program that covered all aspects of the world, I would have to -- I would need some more specifics in terms of what the show would be.

1150 What I heard this morning was not specific enough, as far as I'm concerned, but I see the difference you are pointing out, and there is a difference.

1151 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: On a "scary meter", 1 to 5, I mean, how do you feel after this morning with regard just to the news segment. Are you as worried or do you feel at least that there is some comfort there?

1152 MR. MONTESANO: Well, my family is from Calabria so everything is five on the scary meter. We are very pessimistic people, very cautious.

1153 No, I would say that -- well, like I said, I think there were a lot of things that came up this morning that we had never heard before. We would have preferred to have heard that a while ago.

1154 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: When the Chair is finished with people, they always end up saying things they never thought they would say. Hallmark characteristics.

1155 MR. MONTESANO: Yes. So I think there is definitely something for me to go back to TLN with in terms of, you know, briefing them and giving them a sense as to how things have changed, but our reaction to that would probably be best left in the hands of the President.


1157 Just a final point. I think there may be questions from my colleagues, but you made a point in your written submission about overbidding for program rights. You are speaking here -- or perhaps it wasn't you, but I thought someone had made an overbidding --

1158 MR. MONTESANO: Overbidding?

1159 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: You know, bidding up the costs of -- a competitor bidding up the costs of --

1160 MR. MONTESANO: No. I think what it was was that in WTM's reply they made a case that because we get programming from government-sponsored services like RAI, or other cases, and they differentiated where they would be buying programming and saying that they would be doing it from independent producers, so because of that they wouldn't be directly competing with our program suppliers. So I took issue with that, which is not necessarily true because we buy a number of our programmings from independent producers as well. So I was just --

1161 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Well, I'm quoting here -- I may have misunderstood this -- from page 2, paragraph 5, numbered paragraph 5 of your original submission of -- what date is it -- April 13, 2000, where you say, about the fourth line, you are worried about the support:

"...overbidding for acquired ethnic programming in these markets...

...underpricing commercial ad sales and overbidding acquired ethnic programming." (As read)

1162 MR. MONTESANO: Yes. I think that speaks to what you described as a level playing field. It would be difficult for us to compete for programming -- trying to purchase programming from independent producers with an organization that was on basic carriage and had the kind of leverage that that affords it.

1163 You know, again, we are not -- we are fully prepared to develop our business within the context of the restrictions of our licence and the role that we play in Canadian broadcasting. To put -- to add someone in the mix and to allow someone to compete with us with that much of an economic advantage might throw off kind of the centre of balance right now let's call it.

1164 We are working with very narrow in terms of -- you know, very narrow margins in terms of what we can afford to buy and not buy, and that would ultimately impact on the amount of availability and choice we can give to our audience and our viewers.

1165 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: But to use the movie example, you are showing 25-26 movies a year, some are Spanish, some are Italian. Let's say it's an even mix, just for the sake of argument. Pad it a little, call it 15 films in any one language you are looking to buy. They are maybe going to show -- if they really are as representative as we were told this morning, they may show 10 a year or something like that. From your experience in programming, buying programming, would that be enough pressure that would trouble you, or is there a lot of programming to go around out there?

1166 MR. MONTESANO: Well, it depends on what you are talking about. It's interesting you bring up the case of film because film is a very difficult property to buy. It could be very, very expensive. We have actually run into some difficulties with other broadcasters who traditionally pay more for Italian language and Spanish language films and all of a sudden --

1167 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Well, we know they don't want "Theatre Paradiso", they are on the record with that.

1168 MR. MONTESANO: Yes. But not only "Theatre Paradiso", we are talking about second tier or third tier films that are just difficult to get out of Italy or get out of Latin America.

1169 There is a finite number of quality films out there, so now that we have actually developed a slot and we have actually started buying these films we have run into some difficulty because we are getting outbid already with people saying "Look, if we are going to pay you more than TLN because it's a third language specialty channel and we are a more conventional station, then we are going to have to restrict their access to those kinds of films."

1170 So it something we deal with already. The addition of WTM would only create more trouble, as far as we are concerned.

1171 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Those are my questions, but I wanted to ask our legal counsel, because I am a little vague on one thing.

1172 You are thinking about going back and talking to your team and then you sort of suggested getting back to us, but I don't think our rules allow for that.

1173 MR. MONTESANO: That's fine.

1174 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I will leave you in the hands of able counsel. You may just want to go back and gripe or not gripe, but I'm not sure that that is possible.

1175 Those are my questions anyway and, Geoff, you may have some insights on that.

1176 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Commissioner Langford.

1177 MR. BATSTONE: Just on that, the ordinary process would not be -- like the intervention phase would end here, the reply by WTM.

1178 MR. MONTESANO: Okay. I'm a rookie.

1179 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Montesano.

1180 MR. MONTESANO: Thank you.

1181 THE CHAIRPERSON: Give our best to Mr. Di Felice.

1182 MR. MONTESANO: Thank you.

1183 THE CHAIRPERSON: I don't think we should go to Calabria.

--- Laughter / Rires

1184 THE CHAIRPERSON: I can be scary too. We all know that.

1185 Mr. Secretary.

1186 MR. CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

1187 I would now like to call on the Canadian Cable Television Association to present its intervention.


1188 MR. TAYLOR: Good afternoon, Madam Chair, Commissioners.

1189 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon, Mr. Taylor.

1190 MR. TAYLOR: As you know, my name is Chris Taylor -- do I have a buzz here? No? It must have been what I had for lunch.

1191 I am Senior Vice-President of Law and Regulatory Affairs at the Canadian Cable Television Association. In light of some of the comments this morning, I would emphasize that I am speaking today on behalf of all of our members, including Vidéotron.

1192 As the Commission is aware from the CCTA's written comments, we oppose the application by WTM. In our written comments we identified several reasons for our opposition. Today I would like to focus on just one of those, namely carriage.

1193 WTM has asked for dual status analog carriage. The CCTA opposed WTM being granted any form of analog carriage. It is commonly recognized and was acknowledged this morning that the future of broadcasting is digital. Nothing demonstrates this fact more clearly than the response to the Commission's recent call for new digital specialty and pay television services. There were 452 applications. That is a lot of potential services.

1194 As the Commission is aware, the network capacity used to provide one analog channel can be used to provide at least 6 to 10 digital services. Given this fact, it is our view that it would be counterproductive and contrary to the public interest to licence a new analog specialty service at this time. If the Commission were to licence WTM for carriage on an analog basis, it would effectively be denying carriage to at least six new digital services.

1195 In the CCTA's view, there is nothing in the record of this proceeding which would warrant the Commission taking such an extraordinary approach as licensing one new service and therefore denying carriage to six others.

1196 Consequently, in our submission, WTM's application should be denied.

1197 Thank you for the opportunity to provide you with these comments and I would be pleased to answer any questions you may have.

1198 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Taylor.

1199 Commissioner Wilson, please.

1200 COMMISSIONER WILSON: I'm not sure I have ever heard CCTA be quite so brief.

1201 MR. TAYLOR: That's why I didn't provide you with a written copy.

1202 COMMISSIONER WILSON: I was just going to say, Ms Yale, you have changed your hair, because that is who I was expecting.

1203 MR. TAYLOR: You were expecting Janet Yale? I'm sorry.

1204 COMMISSIONER WILSON: She signed the letter.

1205 MR. TAYLOR: I see. She is in New Orleans.


1207 Okay. Although you have just focused on the carriage issue in your comments, I do want to talk to you about some of the points that you raised in your written intervention. You break it out into three areas, preferential treatment, future as digital and whether or not WTM has made the case for dual status analog carriage.

1208 In your written intervention you argue that WTM is jumping the queue of all the applicants for digital specialities. I assume that you have reviewed their reply to your intervention in which they talk about APTN and TVA and the Food Network?

1209 MR. TAYLOR: Yes, I have.

1210 COMMISSIONER WILSON: Maybe you can just refresh my memory, what was the CCTA's position on, let's just say, APTN and the Food Network?

1211 MR. TAYLOR: With respect to APTN, while I wasn't with the Association at the time it is my understanding that the Association raised certain concerns about the placement of APTN on basic and the licensing.

1212 COMMISSIONER WILSON: And the Food Network?

1213 MR. TAYLOR: With respect to the Food Network, the Association's position was that the transition or transformation of the Food Network from an eligible satellite service carried on a number of cable companies to a specialty service carried only on those cable acceptable, that it would be grandfathered as having only that form of carriage and not have any right to expanded carriage on other systems that were not currently carrying it.

1214 COMMISSIONER WILSON: So in your mind you can distinguish those two cases, both of which are analog, from this particular application?

1215 MR. TAYLOR: The APTN I think is distinguishable. It is a fairly unique service and one that there was absolutely no -- well, virtually no competing or comparable service for that.

1216 The Food, I mean the way it is dealt with is that it was an existing service and therefore was not going to require new capacity for the systems that currently were carrying it. So I would distinguish it on that basis.

1217 We are looking at a request, essentially, for new capacity for an analog service and we don't see that as being an appropriate thing to do.

1218 I would also note that the history of the WTM application is one where it puts itself, I think, more readily in the company of a number of other applications in the past that were denied and who have been required -- effectively required to provide or submit digital applications if they wish to seek carriage any further. So I would think that it would be more appropriate to group the WTM application with those services or would-be services rather than the APTN and Food.

1219 COMMISSIONER WILSON: When you talk about the future being digital in your intervention, you make the point that because of technological and regulatory changes over the last number of years since this application was originally filed that it really doesn't make sense to license an analog service.

1220 Aside from sort of the obvious business plan implications to the application of any other kind of carriage in terms of what kind of revenue stream they could expect, what is your view of the arguments raised by the applicant that this channel is a broad general interest type of service, unlike the niche programmers that we are seeing more and more of, in the sense that it reflects a growing mainstream in the country in terms of the changing demographics in Canada? Do you think there is any validity to that argument?

1221 MR. TAYLOR: Well, I preface my response to that by saying you will note we were fairly careful to avoid addressing specific content claims in either our written or oral intervention.

1222 That being said, I certainly was struck by a number of remarks this morning wherein Mr. Iannuzzi at one point said he was not selling eyeballs, he was targeting an audience for advertisers, and yet at another time we have heard the claim that it is a broad general network.

1223 I find a certain inconsistency with respect to the position that they are bringing to this. I think that the character of the service would appear to be targeted at different audiences at different times, but that it is very much a targeted service and therefore it would be one which would be very easily fit into the type of service that we would have expected to see as an application under the current digital call either as a Category 1 or a Category 2 or, frankly, as both so as to hedge their bets.


1225 You also raised the argument, and this is really the argument that you focused on this afternoon in terms of carriage with respect to network capacity and that the licensing of an analog channel could impair digital rollout by hogging bandwidth, 6 megahertz.

1226 I'm just wondering if you could address this issue from the perspective of -- I mean, unless I am mistaken, there are two different kinds of digital rollout that are taking place right now, there is the rollout that Shaw began a couple of years ago where they harvested analog and using digital video compression expanded their channels using a first generation box, I think they call it.

1227 Then there is the other way of rolling out digital which is to build your plant at 750 megahertz, thereby creating a whole bunch of additional capacity which you then use digital video compression on and some other kind of box, a second or third generation box.

1228 So when you talk about the fact that you wouldn't be able to harvest analog capacity, you are talking about that first technological model whereby you harvest the analog and turn it into your digital offering. Is that right?

1229 MR. TAYLOR: It's my understanding that the underlying technology is the same in either case, namely that the capacity that can be used for an analog channel can support 6, 10 or more digital channels.


1231 MR. TAYLOR: The question is: How do you get that additional analog capacity? There are two ways of getting that additional analog capacity. One is, you can build out your system, upgrade your system. The second way is by taking existing analog capacity and dedicating it to digital. It's my understanding that virtually every system is looking at both of those ways of doing it.

1232 I mean, people may not be -- systems where the company doesn't have the same capital may not be doing as much in the way of upgrading, so a smaller system may be looking at simply trying to harvest the analog capacity that it might have available to it. The larger companies, the larger MSOs, will definitely be doing a combination of upgrading and harvesting as well.

1233 In the current environment where we face -- the cable companies being in a somewhat different situation, say, from the DTH who are entirely digital, the cable companies face a requirement to move to digital to remain competitive with the DTH companies and LOOK. So they have a significant incentive to attempt to get content there and they face the opportunity of having quite a variety of content available to them in the coming years, new content with respect to all of the new services that we have seen file applications.

1234 It is in that context where dedicating any capacity to an analog service at this time is, in our view, a very, very difficult thing to justify. Our position is that this particular service, while it could very well be a great Category 1 or Category 2 service, if it had chosen to go that route, and been licensed as such as an analog service, we just don't think it is justifiable.

1235 COMMISSIONER WILSON: Aside from the capacity issue, do your members have any other concerns about the potential for new analog services to hinder digital rollout?

1236 MR. TAYLOR: In the context of this application I would say that one of the other aspects with the digital rollout will be -- and it was again alluded to this morning -- was the eventual migration to digital.

1237 Certainly adding services now to analog that will want to be migrated to digital at a later date simply adds an additional step and complicates things. In that way, as the Commission is better aware than I, I mean you are currently going to be looking at putting out a public notice to address the migration issue and the more services that there are on analog who want to stay on analog and don't want to go to digital or may want special conditions for being on digital or may want to have duplicate carriage or whatever, it just makes it more difficult to address that. That is a very, very difficult problem for the cable industry to address and certainly for the Commission to address.

1238 COMMISSIONER WILSON: Particularly when most of the subscribers are analog.

1239 MR. TAYLOR: Exactly.

1240 So, you know, the opportunity for the cable industry with new services is to have them on digital and provide an incentive for customers to move to digital. People are not going to spend money on buying a box when there is very little available via the digital box, or leasing a box or having a box nicely subsidized by their cable operator, whatever the case may be financially. They don't want to do that unless there is a good reason to do it, so the more content we have to put on digital carriage the better it is and the more that the analog is bumped up the more difficult that becomes.

1241 So it is a fairly -- that aspect of it is a fairly simple problem. The solution, say the long-term migration, that is a much more difficult problem.

1242 COMMISSIONER WILSON: What about a situation where, let's say we were to license a Canadian analog service and that might require your members to bump a U.S. service, for example, up to digital in order to accommodate it?

1243 MR. TAYLOR: That's life. I mean, it has already taken place. Some of my members have bumped U.S. services. They have been required to do so with the launching of the last four digital orphans, as they are called, and so that has taken place.

1244 You know, the cable companies have regulations as to what they can carry and the priority under which things must be carried and there is a reasonable expectation that they will comply with that. Certainly people will complain if they don't. So it is up to the Commission to establish the way they wish to set the priorities, et cetera.

1245 I mean, I am here today to basically say this is a service that could be carried on digital and it might be an excellent service on digital but we just don't see the case for placing it on analog.


1247 The final area that you address in your written intervention is that WTM hasn't made a case for dual status analog carriage. You base this argument primarily on the market information filed with the application which you noted was outdated and said was therefore not relevant.

1248 Now, have you had a chance to review the updated market information filed by the applicant last week?

1249 MR. TAYLOR: Yes, we have. We received it last week and we took a look at it.

1250 Our view on it is basically that the questions are, as was pointed out or noted this morning -- the questions are extremely broad. They are not targeted specifically at the specific service that is being proposed. They do not provide any good measure of the demand for the particular service.

1251 The earlier data had the same characteristics and we don't believe that that information is sufficient to justify putting it on analog at all.

1252 COMMISSIONER WILSON: So your view hasn't changed?

1253 MR. TAYLOR: No, it has not.

1254 COMMISSIONER WILSON: Just one final question.

1255 Have any of your members had any discussions with WTM about carriage of the service?

1256 MR. TAYLOR: I'm not aware of any, but I'm not aware of a lot of what my members do. I think it is fair to say that there could have been conversations with people.

1257 My comment at the beginning with respect to the references to Vidéotron, though, are that the submissions of this nature are vetted, you know, by the members and Vidéotron is one of those members and Vidéotron supports the submission.

1258 In the event that a particular member did not support the position, depending on the size of the member, we either wouldn't make it or we would be qualifying the submission and this is an unqualified submission on behalf of the cable industry or the members who we represent.

1259 COMMISSIONER WILSON: Thank you, Mr. Taylor.

1260 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

1261 Thank you, Mr. Taylor, for coming to Kingston on this beautiful day. It's bad weather in Ottawa I understand, so count yourself lucky we invited you.

1262 MR. TAYLOR: Yes. Thank you very much.

1263 I would hate to have been in New Orleans.

1264 THE CHAIRPERSON: By the way, we don't have a reasonable expectation that your members will follow the regulations, it is an absolute expectation.

1265 MR. TAYLOR: I will pass that along.

1266 THE CHAIRPERSON: You will be surprised.

1267 Mr. Secretary.

1268 MR. CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

1269 Our next intervenor is Fairchild Television Limited.

1270 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon, Mr. Wong.

1271 Mr. Koch I believe. Right?

1272 MR. KOCH: Yes. Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

1273 THE CHAIRPERSON: You can proceed.


1274 MR. WONG: Good afternoon, Madam Chair, Members of the Commission. My name is Calvin Wong and I am the Senior Vice-President of Fairchild Television. With me today is Mr. Michael Koch, our legal counsel from Goodman Phillips & Vineberg.

1275 I appreciate the opportunity to appear before you to discuss our concerns regarding this application.

1276 We recognize that the issue of diversity, complementarity and competitiveness was discussed this morning. It is not entirely clear what proposal is currently before you but, in any case, because our concerns are not eliminated by the various proposals discussed I will proceed with our intervention as originally drafted.

1277 Fairchild opposes the World Television Network application because, if licensed as proposed, this service would have a very significant negative impact on the ability of Fairchild Television and Talentvision to continue serving their audiences.

1278 First, there would be substantial overlap between WTM and Fairchild's services, resulting in advertising dollars that our services simply cannot afford to lose being siphoned away.

1279 In addition, if carried as part of the basic service we believe WTM would also seriously impact on our subscriber levels. The combined impact could threaten the viability of both Fairchild Television and Talentvision.

1280 Before discussing our concerns with this application, I would first like to tell you a little about our services.

1281 Fairchild Television is a national ethnic specialty service predominantly serving the Cantonese-speaking community, but also providing limited service in Mandarin.

1282 Counting only the Chinese-speaking households where it is distributed on the second tier in the Toronto market, Fairchild Television has about 50,000 total subscribers in the Toronto and Vancouver markets.

1283 Talentvision is an ethnic specialty service serving British Columbia which provides programming primarily in Mandarin, as well as Korean and Vietnamese. It has 13,600 subscribers, almost all of whom live in the greater Vancouver area.

1284 At the current time, Fairchild Television operates at a modest profit. Talentvision, on the other hand, continues to struggle financially. Its new focus on predominantly Mandarin programming has been successful, but the service continues to survive largely due to the ongoing support provided by Fairchild Television.

1285 Fairchild is proud of the contributions made by both Talentvision and Fairchild Television to the Canadian broadcasting system. Each service devotes 29 per cent of its total revenues to Canadian programming expenditures and approximately 30 per cent of its schedule to Canadian content.

1286 Talentvision devotes more than 10 hours each week to original local programming created in and focused on the Vancouver area, including seven hours of local news, 1.5 hours of current affairs and two hours of other Canadian programming.

1287 Fairchild Television has a similar commitment to news and information programming in both the Toronto and Vancouver areas, broadcasting 25 hours or original programming each week.

1288 We are also proud of the quality of our Canadian productions, which have won broadcasting and journalism awards and which we increasingly export abroad.

1289 Our concerns with the WTM application relate to both the content and the distribution proposed.

1290 On the content side, the applicant proposes to broadcast programming from around the world which, it emphasizes, would be aimed at a general audience rather than any specific ethnic group. However, regardless of whether English or French-speaking individuals also watch the service, WTM would compete directly with several multilingual ethnic services, including Fairchild Television and Talentvision.

1291 First, we note that WTM proposes to broadcast in the original language of production "for those who understand it", as well as using subtitles to attract a wider audience.

1292 We also note that it proposes to have five theme regions, one of which will be the Pacific Rim. Every Monday, for the entire day, WTM will specifically focus on programming from China, Vietnam, Korea, Japan and the Philippines. That covers all of the ethnic groups served by Fairchild. We would suggest that, given the size of Canada's Chinese community relative to the other Pacific Rim countries listed, Cantonese and Mandarin programming will constitute the vast majority of the programming every Monday.

1293 Finally, we note that WTM offers to accept a condition of licence limiting the amount it broadcasts in any one language to no more than 15 per cent of its schedule in any month and in the evening hours of any month. This was apparently offered as evidence that WTM will not be directly competitive with any existing third language broadcasters. However, we submit that 15 per cent of its schedule -- which WTM has interpreted as 25 hours each week, including 6.5 hours each week in prime time -- is a significant amount of programming to offer in one non-official language.

1294 The vagueness of the application makes it impossible to know exactly how much this service would overlap with Fairchild Television or Talentvision. As the application is written, WTM could offer 25 hours per week in each of Chinese, Vietnamese and Korean.

1295 Based on the Pacific Rim theme day, the size of Canada's Chinese community compared to other ethnic groups, and the ready availability of Chinese programming, we submit that it is realistic to assume that WTM will consistently broadcast 25 hours per week in Chinese, with additional programming in Vietnamese and Korean. With this amount of Chinese programming, WTM would have a direct and substantial impact on Fairchild Television and Talentvision.

1296 The applicant acknowledges that WTM will have a financial impact on existing services, estimating that 24 per cent of its advertising revenues, or about $800,000 per year, will be derived from existing specialty services. Fairchild considers this to be a conservative estimate. Even if accurate, the nature of the service and the fact WTM expects close to half of its audience to be from non-British, non-French backgrounds suggests that much of this will come from the pockets of existing ethnic licensees, including Fairchild Television and Talentvision.

1297 As the Commission knows, both of our services rely exclusively on the Chinese-language advertising market for advertising revenues. While WTM suggests that the overall advertising pie in Canada has increased over the past few years, Fairchild submits that the pie, in fact, is not growing for ethnic advertising dollars, at least not in the Chinese-language market.

1298 Last year, Fairchild Television experienced no increase in national ad dollars and, in fact, faced a significant downturn in revenues from British Columbia. Although Talentvision did have an increase in advertising revenues last year, this was attributable to its switch to predominantly Mandarin programming. The service is still just breaking even.

1299 If WTM began competing for the limited amount of available Chinese advertising dollars, it would seriously undermine Fairchild Television's modestly profitable status and threaten its ability to continue supporting Talentvision.

1300 Before I leave this issue I would like to comment on one specific proposal discussed this morning, the limiting of WTM to no more than 5 per cent of its programming from any one country -- which I understand was suggested in order to deal with a potential trade concern -- would in fact permit WTM to air likely 30 per cent in the Chinese language.

1301 Chinese-language programs are in fact produced in significant quantity in China, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore, Malaysia and Indonesia. So it is the same case as Spanish, as observed by Madam Chair.

1302 Fairchild is also very concerned about WTM's proposal to be distributed as part of the basic service. If it were to be granted this request, Fairchild would not only lose a greater amount of advertising dollars, it would also have a serious impact on our subscriber base. This could have a devastating effect on our company.

1303 Currently, Fairchild Television is carried as part of the second tier on the Shaw Cablesystems in the Toronto area. In all other cases, Fairchild Television and Talentvision are premium services costing $19.95 per month and $9.95 per month, respectively. They are both distributed on a discretionary basis with a right to carriage only where the ethnic groups to whom they broadcast compose at least 10 per cent of the population.

1304 As well, both services are in the process of being transitioned from analog to a digital-only tier.

1305 If WTM were to be granted the right to carriage as part of the basic service, it would be available free of charge on every Class 1 and Class 2 cable system in Canada. If it were to carry 25 hours or more each week of programming in Cantonese, Mandarin, Vietnamese and Korean, the impact on both the subscriber levels and the advertising revenues for the two Fairchild services could be devastating.

1306 In any event, while we heartily support ethnic and multicultural broadcasting in Canada, we do not believe that the proposed World Television Network service meets the threshold of "exceptional importance" which would justify its distribution as part of the basic service, especially given the shortage of analog capacity at the current time.

1307 As well, given the volume of high quality ethnic and multicultural programming which is already available in Canada, this service does not merit the same treatment as TVA or APTN.

1308 In summary, Fairchild believes that it is not in the best interests of the Canadian broadcasting system to award a licence for the WTM service as proposed. However, we would withdraw our opposition if the applicant were willing to accept a condition of licence such as the one we have attached to this presentation, prohibiting the inclusion of Cantonese, Mandarin, Korean and Vietnamese language programming on the service.

1309 Thank you for your attention. We would be pleased to answer any questions that you may have.

1310 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Wong.

1311 Commissioner Demers, please.

1312 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Thank you, Madam Chair.

1313 Good afternoon. I heard your statement at the beginning on what happened this morning and the fact that you had prepared your written intervention. On the other hand, an important part of what was said this morning was a reduction of the one language percentage from 15 to 5 per cent, if I remember.

1314 I didn't get from your presentation that you have commented directly on that point.

1315 MR. WONG: Yes. We haven't commented directly on that point but, however, I want to give you a real business case which was discussed earlier on between Commissioner Langford and the TLN, Telelatino.

1316 I may sound unreasonable if I say, you know, 3 per cent is high, or even 2 or 1 per cent is high, but in actual case we are forced out of showing Chinese movies during prime time because of competition, because of actually outbidding during program acquisition process by a competitor which is a basic multicultural service, CFMT in Ontario.

1317 So this is something that, as mentioned earlier by Telelatino, ethnic service works in a very narrow margin and in a very narrow focused market. We used to carry Chinese movies during prime time for the last five years, up until 1997, because of this continuous outbidding by CFMT since 1994, 1995, 1996 we just cannot afford it and then we won't be able to show any more Chinese movies during prime time. That share of the advertising revenue is now, you know, going into the hands of CFMT.

1318 So that in that case, you know, when we talk about 3 per cent, it's still -- you know, any broadcaster can put forward a Chinese movie during Saturday or Sunday or Friday evening and that will cut into our advertising -- real advertising revenue.

1319 Whether they are subtitled or not, it is still a Chinese entertainment movie.


1321 I would just like to come back to your suggested condition of licence and maybe to open up that.

1322 Is the sense of that condition -- the suggested condition of licence, is it put in a sense that Cantonese, Mandarin, Vietnamese and Korean languages are more or less your take, that these languages should not be broadcast on other stations, that you provide the service in these languages?

1323 MR. WONG: No, I wouldn't say that, because as of today there are other services broadcasting in the languages of Cantonese, Mandarin, Korean and Vietnamese.

1324 What I'm saying here is that we are operating under a very restrictive licence condition. Say, for example, Fairchild Television is a unilingual language. We cannot broadcast any other language except Chinese. We cannot broadcast any English, any French or any other language.

1325 The same applies to Talentvision although under a little bit different licence condition, but still we are broadcasting under a very restrictive condition.

1326 As an audience, as an example, some of the discussion earlier this morning talking about, you know, some of the film festivals, they are able to highlight certain foreign films but they are not appearing on television. Me, myself, I don't have a lot of time to go to film festivals but I enjoy watching movies. Some of those Chinese movies, because other distributors have been paying a higher price to get them, we are not able to feature it on Fairchild. However, many a time I will be able to get it on other specialty channels like Bravo! or Showcase. Now, at the present moment, CFMT is doing that every day and every week. I know that there is an application under CFMT to go into the Vancouver market as well.


1328 If we can come more directly to the programming that you provide, could you give specific examples of an overlap between what you broadcast and what is proposed today?

1329 MR. WONG: I think I can see a lot of overlapping because we are a general interest service but only language-specific, so that in our daily schedule we have everything, news, public affairs shows, music video, dramas and movies, documentaries, everything. So that I don't see the difference between what WTM is proposing as a general interest service than our service.

1330 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: So, in a sense, when I say specific you say everything more or less that is suggested, that is proposed on WTM --

1331 MR. WONG: Yes. You know, take even the news as an example. What I heard this morning is that they will get the news from the original third language country, let's take Chinese as an example. They will get the news from China or Taiwan. It's the same thing we do every day. We get the news feed from China, Taiwan and Hong Kong. It's basically the same.

1332 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Do you have other examples in other respects of programming?

1333 MR. WONG: If we talk about drama, of course it will be from, you know, similar programs. Then if we talk about movies, it will be from the same distributors.

1334 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Would you be able to put a figure on duplication, on specific duplication with your station?

1335 MR. WONG: I would think if we talk about programming, what will be available on WTM, apart from those that they produce themselves or locally, they will be 100 per cent duplicate on what we are doing.


1337 Do you do some subtitling? Do you broadcast programs with subtitles?

1338 MR. WONG: Right now we don't have any English subtitling. We do some subtitling on the Chinese, because take for example when we do our news or current affairs show we interview the Mayor or the Premier or the Prime Minister, then we put Chinese subtitles on there.

1339 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Now WTM says in its application that its programming will be directed at the mainstream audience and for that reason will not be ethnic programming. You seem to suggest that WTM will be essentially an ethnic service and will be directed at ethnic audiences.

1340 Do you think that there is a practical way to differentiate the programming you provide from the programming proposed by WTM?

1341 MR. WONG: I think it's very difficult because, you know, at the moment if we put English subtitles on our programming and then we can claim that we are also targeting mainstream audience, but however, I think as during the discussion this morning as observed by Madam Chair, that what you intend or what you target to get might not be the same as what you are actually getting.

1342 So, you know, putting a Chinese movie with English subtitles doesn't make that difference whether the intention is to get mainstream or not, still it is entertainment TV time and at the same time that the Chinese audience would very likely turn to that channel.

1343 I think in the marketing plan or in the marketing proposal proposed by WTM they also, you know, highlight the fact that they are not only getting mainstream advertisers, they are getting ethnic audience and ethnic advertisers.


1345 I have no further questions.

1346 MR. WONG: Thank you.

1347 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Wong.

1348 MR. WONG: Thank you.

1349 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Koch, thank you for visiting us in sunny Kingston.

1350 Mr. Secretary, please.

1351 MR. CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

1352 We will now hear the intervention from Ann Summers International.

1353 THE CHAIRPERSON: Ms Summers, welcome.


1354 MS SUMMERS: Thank you, Madam Chairman and Commissioners.

1355 Just to give you some background on myself, I am in my 42nd year as a commercial manager of performing artists in the classical music and ballet fields. Twelve years of those were in New York, eight years were in Italy and 22 have been back here in Canada. That is where I make my money and I have had the privilege of working with artists through entire career spans, the entry period, the high earning years as well as the retirement years.

1356 A few years ago I realized that Canada's artists have not the same resources as in other countries and I started the International Resource Centre for Performing Artists. Those are the handouts that you have now.

1357 Just to give you the background, we try to help artists move into their careers where they are employable once they have been fully trained formally. Sometimes, as we all know, education doesn't always train you for employment. That is where we focus our energies with the resource centre.

1358 One of the problems that we have, which was submitted in my letter of March 17th, is that the public in Canada, no matter what their backgrounds, are completely uninformed about the performances of our Canadian artists, even if they are on world stages. As a result, our artists are better known outside of Canada than they are in.

1359 It is for that reason that I want to support the application from Télémonde, because Mr. Iannuzzi has already proven himself in sponsoring cultural events. Quite often I can read more on the cultural activities of Canadians from them than I can from the Toronto dailies.

1360 The newspapers that we have seem to be supplied by American news wire services. As I mentioned in my letter, we often can read about who gets arrested in Hollywood the night before for drunk driving or which young actress is deciding whether or not to get pregnant. I don't think that that is really that much interest to the Canadian public.

1361 With what they are proposing, this gives us a whole new opportunity for our Canadian artists to be made known to their own public back home.

1362 As far as diversity is concerned, I have an African-Canadian soprano who performs in Italy or Tokyo or England or the U.S., but as far as her family in Winnipeg and the general Canadian public, they have no idea about this.

1363 I gave examples in my letter, last summer alone there were about four or five Canadian performers making tremendous innovations both in their careers and also in the prestige of Canada by representing Canada abroad and not one word was ever mentioned in our Canadian newspapers back home.

1364 I think that if Canadian artists are performing abroad and Télémonde is going to cover that here, it would be considered Canadian content, so I don't think that it would be so much in competition with other organizations simply because they are already not covering that. So it would be, in fact, unique programming for Canadian artists.

1365 In that sense I think it is absolutely complementary to what is already available to the public in Canada, but it also gives us an opportunity of seeing our Canadian artists at work.

1366 We have the Toronto Tabla Ensemble for instance who are both Indian and Canadian-born artists. They have sold out audiences in Toronto all the time, but the only place they can get booked outside of Toronto is in a folk festival because the rest of Canada doesn't know their performances. They appear with Japanese drummers, they appear with flamenco and katach dancers. How does the Canadian public deserve this kind of marginalization with these artists?

1367 So, in my opinion, both the artists and the public in Canada would be well served by this application.

1368 Thank you.

1369 THE CHAIRPERSON: Ms Summers, it's a well-known fact that in English Canada -- if I understand your proposition, that in English Canada there is a dearth of a "star system" or of an ability to advertise or promote or make known our own performers. Do I understand you to say that you are supporting this application because it would take the Canadian performances and make them world performers and then take them back into Canada?

1370 MS SUMMERS: No.

1371 THE CHAIRPERSON: If there is a problem with the "star system" isn't it something that the Commission is looking at and attempting to help. Did I misunderstand?

1372 MS SUMMERS: Yes. Because what actually happens is that most Canadians have to leave home in order to earn a living because our market is so limited here in Canada already, and once they have become well-known abroad sometimes they can come home and sometimes they can't.

1373 I have spent weeks, in Austria for instance, on a study program showing North Americans, Americans as well as Canadians, how to get home again after they have made careers in Europe. They don't know how to get back home. Without having the exposure of television and the media, newsprint media as well as television and radio, the Canadian public is completely unaware of them.

1374 THE CHAIRPERSON: So, in your view, it is more a problem of the difficulty of Canadian artists to do well unless they do well on the world stage --

1375 MS SUMMERS: That's right.

1376 THE CHAIRPERSON: -- rather than the problem I was outlining, which is a seeming inability for English Canada in particular --

1377 MS SUMMERS: It has nothing to do with English Canada.

1378 THE CHAIRPERSON: And, of course, you are speaking more of a certain register or kind of artists.

1379 MS SUMMERS: Well, classical music and ballet.

1380 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, as opposed to the ones who if you want to learn about them usually you look for them in the U.S.

1381 MS SUMMERS: Right. But you see --

1382 THE CHAIRPERSON: The Canadians who have left. So you are speaking about classical artists.

1383 MS SUMMERS: Right.

1384 First of all, it has nothing to do with English Canada whatsoever. I have a French Canadian soprano right now having just moved to Milan because she is performing regularly with --

1385 THE CHAIRPERSON: In the classical area I agree.

1386 MS SUMMERS: Right.

1387 But there is also another reason. I mean, artists do have to grow internationally to become artists because they can't just stay home, but in doing so they need to be also known to their own people and it is very difficult for Canadian artists, most of who will come back in their retirement, but in the meantime Canada has lost the investment we have made in them in preparing them when they have their high earning years somewhere else.

1388 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Thank you for your participation.

1389 MS SUMMERS: You're welcome.

1390 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Summers.

1391 Mr. Secretary, please.

1392 MR. CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

1393 We will now hear from the Canadian Ethnocultural Council.

1394 THE CHAIRPERSON: Welcome and proceed when you are ready.


1395 MR. SEKULOVSKI: Good afternoon, Madam Chair, Commissioners, Mr. Secretary and to everyone else. Our President, Mr. Emmanuel Dick, was not available to attend this afternoon and has asked me to speak on his behalf.

1396 On behalf of the Canadian Ethnocultural Council we wish to thank the CRTC for giving us the opportunity to speak to you today.

1397 My name is Lou Sekulovski, I am a member of the CEC's Executive Committee and I am accompanied by the CEC's Executive Director, Anna Chiappa and the Chair of our Media Committee, George Frajkor. George is also the producer of the Slovak Community TV show called "Slovak Spectrum" in Ottawa.

1398 As some of you may already know, the CEC is a national umbrella organization which represents over 30 national ethnocultural organizations. Briefly, our mandate is to promote the understanding and acceptance of the multicultural reality of Canada.

1399 The CEC has gone on record on many occasions to support broader access and availability to broadcasting and programming which is reflective of the multicultural diversity of Canada. We believe that this is in keeping with Canada's multicultural policy as well as the Broadcasting Act and we support the idea of national programming which reflects this vision.

1400 We believe that such a channel would contribute greatly to the development of the Canadian culture which sees diversity as a strength and to the education of all Canadians.

1401 I will pass on the microphone to George.

1402 MR. FRAJKOR: It's Anna Chiappa I think.

1403 MR. SEKULOVSKI: I'm sorry, Anna. I'm sorry about that.

1404 MS CHIAPPA: That's all right.

1405 We see programming proposed by Télémonde as serving two ends.

1406 One is to bring Canadians belonging to particular ethnocultural groups the living culture of their ancestral homelands, as well as to bring them news and documentaries valuable to them in today's world.

1407 The second is to give Canadians of all backgrounds exposure to the life, the thoughts, the actions of the rest of the world as expressed in the artistic and realistic creations of the countries of the world themselves.

1408 We believe the second to be as important as the first. Canada's Constitution recognizes the reality that this is a multicultural, multiethnic and multiracial nation. Such recognition is meaningless if it is only verbal and, thus, it must be reflected in reality. We feel it is a matter of right that multilingual, multicultural broadcasts should be created in Canada at the local, regional and national levels.

1409 WTM is the first such initiative at the national level. We applaud the CRTC's decisions in the past which have enabled such stations as CFMT to flourish, as well as other cable broadcasts. As we have stated in the past, local, regional programming of that nature must be permitted to continue. We believe that a national multicultural channel will be of great use to all Canadians as individuals and that it can contribute to the building of the Canadian identity and a Canadian place in this rapidly shrinking world.

1410 MR. FRAJKOR: Undoubtedly many of us have already travelled in Europe and we have undoubtedly noticed that the rich variety of programming is available in most European countries that are not easily available here. It is not uncommon for people in one country -- I use Slovakia as an example because I have been there -- to watch original broadcasts from Poland, Hungary, Ukraine, Czech, Germany, Austria, Serbia, Romania, France and Italy, all in that one country.

1411 SKY channel and CNN bring them news and documentaries in English, TV5 in French. Europeans get to know a lot about each other and they get to know a lot about us and they are in constant contact with each other.

1412 Canada suffers the disadvantage of geography. If we have an advantage of technology, we have the disadvantage of being only -- having only one close and powerful neighbour whose cultural products dominate our film, our publishing and our broadcast industries. Almost from the beginning of broadcasting in Canada it has been the policy of our governments of every political stripe to struggle against this domination by our close neighbour and to build a vital and attractive Canadian culture.

1413 One way to nourish that process would be to expose Canadians to much more of the cultural products of other nations which, happily, are not merely isolated curiosities to most of us but are part of our own development and our own thought.

1414 Except for the First Nations, we Canadians are all immigrants. Many still have ties to our ancestral lands. We still value what they taught us and we should value what they can still teach us. But that reality is not reflected in our national broadcasting system.

1415 I am not going to surprise anyone by pointing out the obvious, that the majority of the television programs we watch are American. We, the Canadian descendants of many nations ranging from African to Asian to east and west European, do not find our heritage nor our current cultures reflected in the Canadian broadcasting scene, except at the local and at the regional levels.

1416 Canada, if it is to develop a distinctive Canadian identity separate from that of the general North American culture, must encourage all cultures to contribute to our new identify.

1417 Small art theatres, educational channels and artistic channels occasionally broadcast the artistic creations of other nations, but that is actually a rather rare event. I do watch Bravo! and Showcase and TVO and PBS, and what I see there, if it's not American it is British, Australian and occasionally perhaps Dutch, German and Italian.

1418 I can't remember the last time on our national systems that I saw a film from India, despite the well known fact that this country is more of a major producer of films than Hollywood.

1419 I once saw an excellent Jamaican film on Canadian TV and that was probably 20 years ago. I have not seen one since.

1420 Just walking along some of the streets in Ottawa's Asian areas I have seen posters advertising videos for Indian, Pakistani, Vietnamese and Chinese films. I have seen videos from Egypt and from Arabic countries. We have the technological capacity to distribute a lot of these products. There is clearly a market for them in the ethnocultural communities. We believe there would be an even bigger market for them if all Canadians had more exposure to them.

1421 MR. SEKULOVSKI: In summary, we feel that the WTM proposal will bring the entire world to Canada, therefore it will allow all Canadians the opportunity to see and experience the richness of the world.

1422 Canadian television and the media must be insightful and visionary of global realities. In this age of rapid technological changes and the so-called quote/unquote "communication revolution" it only makes sense that the CRTC open the window of opportunity for world television to enter the homes of all Canadians.

1423 Just as computers and the World Wide Web have allowed individuals to "surf the world", quote/unquote, and see it on the screen, television must also do the same. The world looks at Canada as being open and diverse and, as such, Canadian media should promote an open and diverse format.

1424 I thank you.

1425 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

1426 Commissioner Langford, please.

1427 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Just a couple of questions.

1428 Kind of on the balance, some of the points you made, I think taken in isolation and perhaps in context as well, are absolutely true. We will have to hear it all before we come to that final decision, but in isolation who can argue with someone saying, you know, CFMT, as you said, is flourishing and that's good and it's more product, and Mr. Frajkor saying that he can't remember when he last saw an Indian movie on TV but there are lots of them out there obviously because the video stores in Toronto are full of them.

1429 At the same time, though, I wonder how you -- what your feeling was hearing from the representatives from Telelatino and from Fairchild and Talentvision where they are being outbid by this very CFMT. They can no longer show films, in Fairchild's instance example where they have been showing these films for five years and they just can't afford to buy them any more. How do you balance those two sort of competing needs?

1430 MR. FRAJKOR: Well, we do think there is room for both local and regional and national broadcasting in this field. We do not see WTM -- we take them at their word that they are appealing to a much broader audience, they are appealing to the mainstream Canadian audience by buying these films and subtitling them.

1431 In most cases, the smaller local programs -- and I have some experience with producing this cable show myself -- we are indubitably aiming at a niche market, we are deliberately aiming at a restricted audience. We aren't aiming at the English and the French and the Chinese.

1432 The program I run is aimed at my community and, to a certain extent because it's in English, to get people in Ottawa to know my community exists. But we don't see WTM as doing that. We see WTM as exposing the world to all Canadians. So we don't think that there is that kind of direct competition.

1433 Now, financially I see no reason why some kind of a syndication deal couldn't be worked out between a national organization and a local organization. Business is business. These people are businessmen.

1434 I'm quite sure that, for example, CTV was formed deliberately so that a bunch of local stations could pool their savings and buy some films so that all those local stations can show those same films. I see no reason why WTM could not co-operate in some way with other local and regional stations to buy a raft of films, some of which may never be shown on WTM because they don't have the room for them but which could be shown in the original language without subtitles locally as part of a deal.

1435 I see no reason why businessmen can't work things out for themselves. That's what they are in business for.

1436 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: That certainly puts us out of business. We are supposed to work it out for them. Dear me.

1437 Well, we are into the give-and-take conversation here today, competing interests.

1438 Well, while you are wound up, Mr. Frajkor, you have invented yourself more times than I have, but you do have a background in news and this is really just a straight question.

1439 You heard Mr. Bernstein talk about his sort of news vision. Is it viable? Is it going to play in Poughkeepsie, as they say, south of the border?

1440 MR. FRAJKOR: In my opinion, yes, but perhaps I'm biassed by my own position. But I think, first of all, Mr. Bernstein has a very good reputation in the broadcasting business. He knows what he's talking about. He is not an amateur putting things together.

1441 I personally greatly enjoy CNN's world news. I greatly enjoy BBC.

1442 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: But it's not subtitled. I mean, this news is --

1443 MR. FRAJKOR: No. This is one of the things I like about their proposal. The CNN world news will have news from Afghanistan or from Africa or whatever as seen by the people there, but in English. They already represent a sort of a minority view, a kind of a westernized, Americanized view, whereas the original broadcast with subtitles I think would be more revealing, more explanatory to us.

1444 Certainly, for example, TV5, which is the Francophone e-channel. I enjoy that an awful lot if I am interested in African affairs because they tend to spend more time on African affairs than our own, say, Newsworld, CBC or CTV do.

1445 So there is room for that. There is room for foreign broadcast, foreign news, foreign public affairs with subtitles to make them understandable to the mainstream which doesn't understand the original language.

1446 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Finally, on competing interests, we have heard the cable representative here talk about the real technical problem at this juncture of capacity. That is certainly such a well known fact it is probably almost trite, but there is a capacity problem at this point in this transition period.

1447 I can't remember which of you, I'm sorry, but one of you spoke quite eloquently about the objective of diversity, which is clear in the Broadcasting Act, but it's not the only objective in the Broadcasting Act. So when you have so many -- you know, it is a real Canadian document, the Broadcasting Act -- so many goals, so many visions, so many missions wrapped up into one big Section 3, I think it is, it's difficult to get them all on.

1448 Is this one a big enough objective to warrant, in your view, sort of overriding the cable problems that we heard this afternoon?

1449 MR. FRAJKOR: I can understand the Canadian Cable Television Association's objections and I really don't think that we should be that much concerned about them.

1450 If it is desirable to do something, that is really what the CRTC ought to decide. Is it Canadian policy to do this? Is it our policy to have a distinct Canadian cultural identity separate from that of the Americans? If that is desirable, then we must find the means to do it.

1451 The Canadian Cable Television Association represents a bunch of businessmen. We are not obliged to make sure that they have a little monopoly position from which they can profit. We are obliged -- I say "we", we Canadians -- are obliged to see that our culture, our society is advanced. They are obliged to conform to the Canadian Broadcasting Act and to the Canadian Constitution to see that it can be done.

1452 I am quite sure that there are real problems with digital. We know that in the United States, for example, the FCC is having a hell of a mess trying to figure out what digital standard to adopt because it's not as good as the European standard, et cetera. There is no world standard.

1453 I see no reason why we should have the difficulties of achieving a standard here stand in the way of doing something today. It's like saying it's desirable to built a highway from here to there, but let's not built it today when we can build a two-lane highway, let's wait five years and build a four-lane highway when it will be technologically possible. I don't see that as an objection.

1454 I see this channel is desirable. If the CRTC agrees that it is desirable, let's do it now. When digital does come along, when there is a digital standard set, when we know how digital can be done, I'm sure that our business people and our technological people are intelligent enough and fast enough on their feet to be able to convert from the analog to digital and I'm sure the CRTC has enough intelligent people on the CRTC to be able to reallocate channels as necessary. I mean, let's have some faith in our business people and our technological people and our regulators.

1455 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Those are my questions.

1456 Those of you who, like me, remember Mr. Frajkor from his days on the National News, I can tell you he could have said that in his prime, the whole thing, in a minute-thirty. There was a time.

1457 Thank you very much.

1458 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Chiappa, Mr. Frajkor, Mr. Sekulovski.

1459 MR. FRAJKOR: Thank you.

1460 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary, please.

1461 M. CUSSONS: Merci, Madame la Présidente.

1462 J'aimerais maintenant présenter le prochain intervenant.

1463 I would now like to introduce the next intervenor, the Honourable Gerry Weiner.

1464 Mr. Weiner

1465 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Bonjour, Monsieur Weiner.


1466 L'HON. GERRY WEINER: Madame la Présidente, messieurs et mesdames les Commissaires.

1467 C'est quelque chose qu'un petit pharmacien de Montréal est venu et je vous remercie de votre accueil. Vous m'avez demandé sans doute si j'ai reçu un mandat de Monsieur le Maire, M. Pierre Bourque, en venant ici et moi je dis clairement que le seul mandat que j'ai toujours cherché de mes concitoyens c'était un mandat de représenter leurs intérêts, de défendre toutes les situations d'inégalité que malheureusement j'ai toujours trouvées.

1468 Ma vie, si vous voulez passer devant une vie très intéressante dans 30 secondes, a vu certainement des moments où des opportunités n'étaient pas nécessairement là mais j'ai toujours tenu la réalité que la porte n'était jamais fermée et si je suis ici devant vous aujourd'hui, je peux vous dire que maintenant pour la cinquième fois je suis membre du gouvernement. Je représente des citoyens qui sont de plus en plus divers. Le district électoral que je représente maintenant, Madame la Présidente, 80 pour cent sont...

1469 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Monsieur Weiner, je m'excuse. Voulez-vous, s'il vous plaît, pousser votre micro parce qu'il y a beaucoup d'interférence.

1470 Merci. Je m'excuse.

1471 L'HON. GERRY WEINER: Vous savez c'est au moins un peu de nervosité. Quand nous sommes devant une telle audience, ce n'est pas seulement le gentilhomme qui est venu de Calabria qui est "scary".

1472 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Je suis vraiment charmée qu'on puisse finalement faire peur à quelqu'un.

1473 L'HON. GERRY WEINER: Ah, mais vous êtes très gentille.

1474 Anyway on behalf of the citizens of my electoral district in particular and the changing face of Montreal, I am thrilled to be here in support of the World Television Network.

1475 Many will know me through my previous incarnations. Some have called me perhaps Canada's only Minister of Multiculturalism and maybe that is a title I carry with a great deal of honour and pride.

1476 Our first people have taught that you always begin a story by telling who you are and even what you are. My story has evolved over the last half century as a community volunteer and pharmacist and the honour of now participating in my fifth government at either the municipal or federal levels.

1477 I have been a Councillor, Mayor, Member of Parliament and Cabinet Minister in two governments. I am currently the Councillor and Member of the Executive Committee for downtown Montreal. My special areas of interest have always been immigration and the integration of newcomers.

1478 I was very proud to have been Canada's Immigration Minister at a time when we tripled the immigration levels, and equally proud to have been the Minister of Multiculturalism and Citizenship responsible for the creation of a full Department of Multiculturalism.

1479 Many Canadians carry my signature in their wallets on their citizenship cards as a result of my years as the minister responsible for citizenship, and it certainly gives me a special feeling that we will always be so connected, committing me to do all I can to help in building understanding and helping break down barriers.

1480 I have come here today in support of the World Television Network, a most exceptional initiative that should be made available to all Canadians from sea to sea and sea as part of their basic cable service in both official languages.

1481 I have watched the team develop the concept with a great deal of joy and expectation. Joy in that finally we may indeed see ourselves as we are in the mirror, reflecting the change in Canada's face. Be like me or else.

1482 Anticipation. Hoping that somehow the will would be found to have this institution, the television medium, understand that we are no longer what we once were and that it, like every institution of our society, must undergo the required changes to maintain its relevance and importance.

1483 Where to begin is where we often begin a journey: Elsewhere. I would like to begin by reading some of the International headlines in the New York Times dated May 8, 2000, the images of the past week, to illustrate my reality.

"Fighting resumes near capital of Sierra Leone"

"Putin sworn in, names acting P.M."

"China tries to crack down on Liberal intellectuals"

"Rwanda says it is willing to begin withdrawal from Congo"

"Israel and Palestinians to resume peace talks".

1484 I believe that my reality is not much different than that of an increasing large number of Canadians. We seek, on a daily basis, the stories behind the headlines and the experiences that make those stories relevant. We do so from our World Wide Web and we do in greater measure from our TV screen. We hunger for the knowledge and understanding that can be shared in this new world order, a global world where country borders are no longer boundaries, but permeable membranes for a free flow of experiences.

1485 Technological advances allow for greater awareness of all corners of the world and a greater sharing of experiences in searching for common answers for the betterment of humankind. A letter that once took weeks to reach its destination now is sent by e-mail around the world in seconds.

1486 Now, what does all this mean to the individual and what effect does it have on us as a nation?

1487 Canada is a plural society, enriched by its diversity. Diversity has always existed but has certainly become increasingly so with the open immigration policy of the last 25 years.

1488 New citizens have been arriving from all corners of the world in significant numbers. They come with a rich heritage, languages, religion, foods, indeed culture. We believe that these should be preserved and enhanced, unlike our neighbours to the south who believe in some form of melting pot.

1489 But how can you feel if none of this is reflected in the images seen on the screen? How can you share these threads with your new neighbours and friends? How can you really feel you belong if all that you brought with you is somehow reduced in value, reduced in importance?

1490 This can only lead to a lack of understanding, indifference, intolerance and indeed racism, a feeling that you must live in isolation, in separate communities, away from the community that you hoped would be welcoming you because you desperately wanted to belong.

1491 Now, what does this do our citizenship?

1492 The three pillars of our citizenship are community, diversity, and equality.

1493 Equality is inclusion, not exclusion. The right to be equal, but the equal right to be different.

1494 Diversity, the reality of our society. It's an opportunity, not a problem.

1495 Community is sharing the common values. That brings on human dignity and mutual respect.

1496 We should be building a society focused on our common values, our common culture, building a country that is truly enriched by its diversity and finding unity in it, but not striving for harmony in some form of homogeneity.

1497 Is it possible for Canada to build a stake on a foundation of cultural diversity? Can this diversity become a contributing factor toward national integration and unity? The World Television Network is an excellent example of how it can and must be done.

1498 If not this model for a state, what would we like to try, segregation or apartheid, assimilation or the melting pot? They have all been tried and have failed.

1499 The television medium must therefore participate in the growth and maturation of our society.

1500 Canada has been a country of minorities for at least half a century. Population of British decent is now below 40 per cent while the French ancestry may be nearing 25 per cent; our two founding linguistic groups now less than the others or "les autres" who represent more than 40 per cent of the population.

1501 Montreal as an example, 43 per cent of our citizens do not trace their origins to British or French. I will give you a small example of a school in our inner city, Bedford School, 650 students -- an elementary school -- and 647 of them trace their origins to the 100 countries or more of the world where new immigrants have come from, certainly not to Britain or France, not what we used to consider the "gai souche".

1502 Canada is more than a community of communities. We are a country without a single majority. A new definition of nation will be required.

1503 This pluralism will also be an important factor in shaping our role as a world actor. A population with many motherlands abroad provides new problems and opportunities. Interest in ancestral homelands will continue to be very strong. Terrorism, civil wars and famine will be preoccupation of an increasing larger percentage of our population.

1504 A more cosmopolitan Canada has increased opportunity in the fields of trade and investment. Familiarity with language and culture are essential elements and we now have this rich resource in significant number.

1505 What does this mean to our sources of knowledge and information. The television set for example. How can TV help in the integration, building mutual trust and understanding. Unless we know each other, how can we really live together?

1506 From national unity to global competition to an increasingly clear sense of global interdependence, these changes require continuing adjustments by both individual Canadians and our institutions.

1507 The important role we must play in world events, peacekeeping and development, all based on a sterling record of integrity and a world calibre reputation, all demand new and immediate sources of information.

1508 Will television in Canada participate in this new world order?

1509 We must not miss out on this opportunity.

1510 Thank you very much.

1511 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Madame la Conseillère Noël, s'il vous plaît.

1512 COMMISSAIRE NOËL: Monsieur Weiner, je pense que vous êtes probablement mon conseiller municipal étant donné que j'habite au centre-ville de Montréal et ça me fait plaisir de vous rencontrer ici aujourd'hui.

1513 Would you like me to go in French or English? It's up to you.

1514 L'HON. GERRY WEINER: Je suis complètement à l'aise dans les deux langues officielles. J'ai été instruit dans la langue de Molière et vraiment quand mes ancêtres sont venus ici de Roumanie c'était un rendez-vous manqué parce que nous étions jetés dans les écoles anglaises à cause que nous n'étions pas catholiques. Mes enfants sont beaucoup à l'aise dans la langue française alors continuez. Je suis la nouvelle réalité du Québec.

1515 COMMISSAIRE NOËL: Ç'a changé avec les nouvelles commissions scolaires à Montréal qui sont maintenant linguistiques.

1516 Alors écoutez, moi je n'ai pas vraiment de questions à vous poser comme tel. J'aimerais juste que vous élaboriez sur la différence que vous voyez entre le service que prévoit offrir World Télémonde et les services qui sont déjà disponibles en différentes langues, les services ethniques qui sont déjà disponibles au Canada. En fait, il y en a moins à Montréal, on n'est pas très gâtés à Montréal. On a CJNT qui n'est presque plus.

1517 Comment voyez-vous la différence et pourquoi est-ce que vous pensez que ça apporterait une diversité dans le choix.

1518 L'HON. GERRY WEINER: Vraiment, comme vous avez remarqué, on n'a rien à Montréal. Malheureusement quelque chose s'est passé à Montréal mais vraiment je ne suis pas nécessairement un spécialiste de la technologie qui est présentée. Il y a beaucoup d'autres qui ont parlé éloquemment de ce qu'ils ont. Mais quand je vois une opportunité de recevoir tout ce les individus ont apporté à notre pays, de leurs pays d'origine.

1519 Quand je parle de l'héritage que je veux préserver, je veux avoir une possibilité d'entendre --

1520 I want to get the feeling. I want to get the presentation from where it is, from their ancestral home. As I described it, they have two homelands, they have two motherlands and they want so much to share with me, the longer established resident.

1521 What I see in this is a wonderful opportunity to reach out, much as I do on my computer when I come home at night and I open up either my CNN or New York Times and I reach into the articles that are being written from around the world. What they are doing is, they want to bring the world to me in a way that it's happening, in the language that it's happening, with the culture, with the tradition, with the ritual, not in cleansed fashion. I congratulate them for it.

1522 I'm here, as I said, as a person that has watched this development through the years, hoping that at some point I would see this change in reality in terms of the television screen, because I know that unfortunately if it isn't on that square box it's very difficult to be delivered to the home. I want so much for the people who have come to be able to share with the rest of us what they brought so that truly the mosaic of Canada is enriched by what they have brought and not that we go through some kind of a cleansing action where it is under valued.

1523 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Would you say that the subtitling is an asset in that application in as much as it helps convey those original news in a language that I, for instance, can understand. I can hear a bit of Italian, but that is from my grandmother.

1524 HON. GERRY WEINER: It's of course a tremendous asset. I would give you, though, a particular example of my son who is now a resident of France and has been for the last six or seven years who has become adept in five or six languages because he travels and does business in different countries. I think it is another way of sharing how nice it is to be able to pick up enough of different languages.

1525 So, yes, while subtitles would be very helpful for the introduction and the welcome, but I speak as someone who has had the opportunity of travelling the world as a Minister in the federal government, and there is always a warmer atmosphere when I was able to speak my six, eight or ten lines in the language of the people of the country of origin.

1526 So I have no doubt that sharing language and sharing ritual and sharing traditions would be increased.

1527 Certainly the bridge would be having these subtitles.

1528 COMMISSAIRE NOËL: Monsieur Weiner, je n'ai pas des autres questions.

1529 L'HON. GERRY WEINER: Merci beaucoup.

1530 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Weiner.

1531 Surely this was easier than a Cabinet meeting.

1532 HON. GERRY WEINER: Absolutely.

1533 Merci, Madame la Présidente. Merci beaucoup.

1534 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

1535 We will now take a 10-minute break. According to Commissioner Demers' watch, we will be back at quarter after 4:00. That is giving you two minutes grace.

--- Upon recessing at 1603 / Suspension à 1603

--- Upon resuming at 1621 / Reprise à 1621

1536 THE CHAIRPERSON: Order, please.

1537 Mr. Secretary, please.

1538 MR. CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

1539 I understand for personal reasons we are changing the order slightly just in the case of one intervenor.

1540 Alors j'aimerais maintenant présenter le prochain intervenant. Productions La Fête, Monsieur Demers.

1541 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Bonjour, Monsieur Demers.


1542 M. DEMERS: Madame la Présidente.

1543 J'avais une collègue du Québec qui devait venir ici aujourd'hui et qui n'a pas pu venir et qui m'a remis copie de sa lettre.

1544 Est-ce que vous permettez de la lire?

1545 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Absolument.

1546 M. DEMERS: Alors il s'agit d'une lettre écrite par Madame Caroline Héroux et qui dit ceci:

"Membres du Conseil, bonjour. Je voudrais tout d'abord me présenter et présenter ma compagnie. Communications Claude Héroux est une maison de production indépendante oeuvrant dans le milieu cinématographique depuis une vingtaine d'années.

1547 La compagnie fondée par Claude Héroux s'est fait connaître dans les années 80 par des séries dramatiques révolutionnaires à l'époque, entre autres des séries telles que Lance et compte, la Misère des riches, Formule I, Au nom du Père et du Fils, Alphonse Desjardins, le Premier cercle.

1548 Je travaille pour Communications Claude Héroux depuis une dizaine d'années, dont quatre à titre de producteur exécutif et vice-présidente à la production.

Depuis les trois dernières années, la compagnie s'est réorientée vers les émissions de services, documentaires, magazines afin de satisfaire à la demande suit à l'invasion depuis les dernières années des nouvelles chaînes spécialisées. Donc depuis 97, la compagnie a produit près de 200 oeuvres de télévision spécialisées, soit des documentaires tels les Biographies au Canal-D, des magazines et des documentaires pour Canal-Vie, Canada évasion et TV5.

Communications Claude Héroux a depuis une quinzaine d'années une compagnie de distribution qui vend les émissions de télévision à travers le monde. Les gens adorent voir des produits québécois sur leurs chaînes locales. Depuis quelques années, l'Internet est de plus en plus accessible à tous et cette ouverture sur le monde nous offre une multitude de possibilités quant au visionnement de films étrangers.

La vague depuis quelques années est d'ailleurs aux films étrangers et même les Américains ont enfin décidé de s'ouvrir sur le monde jusqu'à considérer des films étrangers en nominations aux Oscars. Si l'on pense, entre autres, à la Vita Bella de Roberto Benini. Ces films, lorsque je les loue ou que je vais les voir en salles, je vais toujours les voir dans leur langue originale puisque ce n'est que dans ce cas que l'on peut sentir toute l'émotion des personnages. C'est cette possibilité d'ouverture sur le monde qui m'a plue de la chaîne Télémonde dès le départ.

En tant que producteur, le projet est évidement très intéressant puisque dans la demande de licence, la chaîne Télémonde promet 50 pour cent de contenu canadien et québécois. Il va de soi que plusieurs de nos émissions pourront aussi être diffusées en deuxième fenêtre ou encore dans le cas de productions originales en première fenêtre. Je sais que la demande de 1996 de Télémonde était au départ en anglais et que la société devait attendre trois ans avant de faire la demande en français. Je crois sincèrement, et je veux que le service en français commence en même temps que celui en anglais. Communications Claude Héroux a un répertoire de plusieurs séries en français pouvant être à la disponibilité de Télémonde. D'ailleurs, lors de ma première rencontre avec Marie-Josée Swift, je lui en avait fait part. Nous serions prêts à remplir le mandat proposé au CRTC en ce qui a trait aux émissions canadiennes francophones. Bref, je crois que la chaîne Télémonde est un concept non seulement original mais innovateur par rapport à la télévision conventionnelle que l'on connaît à présent. Nous sommes en l'an 2000 et nous avons toutes sortes de moyens de communiquer avec les quatre coins de la planète. On veut apprendre à mieux connaître ces gens qui vivent à l'autre bout du monde. La télévision restera toujours le meilleur moyen de télécommunication. Quelle meilleure façon d'apprendre à connaître les goûts, les passions et les moeurs d'autres peuples que par la télévision? Je crois en l'équipe et au concept innovateur de Télémonde et espère que leur enthousiasme ainsi que celui de tous les gens qui les appuient saura vous convaincre à votre tour. Merci. Caroline Héroux". (Tel que lu)

1549 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Monsieur Demers, je ne vois pas le nom de Productions Héroux sur la liste d'intervenants. Alors vous les Productions La Fête vous entérinez cette position?

1550 M. DEMERS: Oui, oui.

1551 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Vous la faites vôtre.

1552 M. DEMERS: Oui. Oui

1553 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Parce que je ne crois pas que Productions Héroux était une intervenante au dossier. Mais vous entérinez la même position.

1554 M. DEMERS: Non seulement, j'entérine mais je voulais justement enchaîner ce que j'avais à dire personnellement sur le fait que je suggérerais au CRTC, à votre Commission, de considérer la possibilité d'obliger World Télémonde à commencer à diffuser en français dès le premier jour.


1556 M. DEMERS: Pour moi c'est une condition très importante et lorsque pour la première fois on est venu me proposer leur concept, il me semblait évident que ça devait être en français et en anglais dès le premier jour.

1557 Juste pour...

1558 LA PRÉSIDENTE: La raison pour laquelle j'ai soulevé ça c'est que normalement pour pouvoir comparaître oralement il faut avoir déposé une intervention.

1559 M. DEMERS: Au moins une lettre.

1560 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Et l'indiquer. Mais si vous entérinez cette lettre comme étant votre position à vous, je ne crois pas que nos conseillers juridiques vont avoir trop de problèmes.

1561 Allez-y maintenant.

1562 M. DEMERS: Merci beaucoup. Juste pour rappeler peut-être en deux mots qui je suis parce que la majorité des gens ici ne me connaissent sans doute pas.

1563 Dans les années 60 j'étais directeur du Festival international du film de Montréal. Dans les années 70 j'étais distributeur de films. Je prenais des films faits à l'étranger et je les rendais disponibles au Canada et je prenais les films canadiens pour les vendre à l'étranger. Depuis les années 80, je suis dans le domaine de la production et mon principal projet a été la production de à ce jour 18 longs métrages de fiction pour les enfants, suit à quoi ma société a commencé à produire des documentaires et maintenant des émissions de variétés, des dramatiques pour la télévision et des séries d'animation.

1564 Avant d'entreprendre cette carrière, j'ai eu l'immense chance de pouvoir un jour décider que je voulais savoir ce qu'il y avait dans le village où j'étais né en Province de Québec en allant voir ce qu'il y avait dans le monde et je suis parti en auto-stop en direction de l'Europe et je suis revenu trois ans plus tard par le Pacifique. J'avais donc moi, petit citoyen d'un petit village québécois, fait le tour de la planète et ces trois années sont les trois années qui ont été les plus riches de ma vie et qui ont décidé d'une foule de choses dans ma carrière et qui m'ont fait me rendre compte que dans un petit village du sud de la Chine ou au Kazakhstan ou en Indes je rencontre des gens qui sont exactement comme moi, qui ont la même vision du monde, qui ont la même sensibilité et que tout juste au-dessous de ce petit vernis qu'est la langue, la religion, la culture il y a l'être humain avec toutes ses profondeurs et que cet être humain-là est le même partout.

1565 Je travaille donc dans l'audiovisuel depuis le début des années 60 et j'ai rêvé, comme tous les gens probablement dans mon secteur, un jour d'avoir un rôle à jouer dans une chaîne de télévision. J'ai imaginé à plusieurs reprises ce que pouvait être cette chaîne de télévision dans laquelle j'aimerais être impliqué.

1566 Lorsque je suis revenu d'Europe, fin février, j'ai vu dans mon agenda un rendez-vous avec Mme Marie-Josée Swift que je ne connaissais pas, je ne savais pas qui elle était. J'étais presque fâché après ma secrétaire d'avoir pris ce rendez-vous même si elle n'avait prévu que 15 minutes étant donné l'horaire de travail que j'avais. Marie-Josée est arrivée. Elle a commencé à me parler de son concept et c'était une bouffée d'oxygène absolument extraordinaire que j'ai ressentie. C'était la première fois que j'entendais décrire un projet dans le domaine de la télévision aussi important pour nous culturellement mais aussi en tant que Canadiens.

1567 A mon avis, si World Télémonde réussit ce qui est le concept qu'ils nous ont décrit cet avant-midi ça sera dans quelques années la chaîne de télévision au Canada qui jouera le rôle le plus important et j'ai entendu, comme vous tous, un certain nombre de réserves cet avant-midi, cet après-midi. Je les comprends très bien mais, par exemple, si on parle de programmation on parle d'une programmation destinée aux Canadiens. Les films qu'on va choisir en Chine ou en Iran ou en Amérique Latine ou en Espagne vont être des films faits dans ces pays qui sont interprétés comme pouvant intéresser l'ensemble de la population canadienne ce qui fait un angle tout à fait différent pour choisir la programmation que si on choisit un film chinois ou italien ou indien pour la communauté indienne du Canada. Ce sont deux optiques complètement différentes et, comme on l'a dit -- je le répète, je peux vous le confirmer -- il y a des milliers d'oeuvres de télévision disponibles partout à travers le monde qui jamais vues au Canada. Non seulement elles ne sont jamais vues, mais dont on n'entend jamais parler et qui peuvent donner une richesse de programmation comme on n'a pas idée. C'est infini, ce n'est pas quelque chose qui va s'épuiser et on a aussi parlé du sous-titrage.

1568 Je comprends très bien là aussi les questions que peut susciter cette conception-là, mais c'est en avant pour la télévision mais il y a une vague qui va dans cette direction et qui est mondiale et qui est due à la globalisation. On a fait beaucoup état de la télévision, d'une chaîne en Australie qui ne diffusait qu'en version originale sous-titrée en anglais. Je connais très bien cette chaîne. Presque tous les films que j'ai produits autres qu'en anglais ont été montrés à cette chaîne de télévision sous-titrée en anglais et comme je suis Québécois mon premier film a été tourné en français. Comme je suis Canadien mon deuxième film a été tourné en anglais. Comme je suis citoyen du monde mon troisième film a été tourné dans un autre pays du monde, que ce soit la Pologne, l'Argentine, la Hongrie et lorsque, par exemple, Bye-bye chaperon rouge de Martam Ezzaros qui avait été tourné en Hongrie a été présenté à cette télévision en Australie on a demandé d'avoir la version hongroise pour qu'on puisse sous-titrer en anglais alors que la version anglaise était disponible.

1569 L'Australie n'est pas une exception. Dans presque tous les pays scandinaves, les télévisions vont préférer présenter des films en français, en espagnol et en indou et en toutes sortes de langues pour pouvoir les sous-titrer dans leur langue plutôt que de les montrer en anglais ou en version suédoise.

1570 Au niveau des salles de cinéma, on a fait état du fait que la Vie est belle de Benini aux États-Unis l'année dernière, il y a deux ans, a fait un peu plus de 40 millions de dollars au "box office" pour un film sous-titré. Cet événement-là, il y a même trois ou quatre ans était absolument inimaginable. On a à Montréal un cinéma qui s'appelle l'Excentrique, qui a trois salles de cinéma qui ne présentent que des films sous-titrés en provenance du monde entier. Ce cinéma-là est celui au Canada qui a le plus haut taux de fréquentation.

1571 Avec les nouvelles techniques de sous-titrage qu'on a aujourd'hui qui permettent de condenser davantage et d'avoir un type de caractères qui se lisent plus facilement, on n'a pas à s'inquiéter outre mesure du fait que la programmation de cette chaîne de télévision sera continuellement sous-titrée.

1572 Il va y avoir -- il ne faut pas se raconter d'histoires, la vie est ce qu'elle est -- certainement de la résistance au début mais à cause de ce que je viens de dire, je suis profondément convaincu que l'ensemble de la population canadienne va très rapidement et très facilement accepter le sous-titrage. Si tous les Japonais peuvent voir des films sous-titrés à la télévision, si tous les gens des pays de l'est peuvent voir des films sous-titrés à la télévision, si tous les Scandinaves peuvent voir des films sous-titrés à la télévision, pourquoi la population canadienne ne serait-elle pas capable de s'habituer à voir des films sous-titrés à la télévision, des films et toute sorte de programmation.

1573 Un autre aspect sur lequel on n'a peut-être pas suffisamment insisté est le fait que, par exemple, on parlait du bulletin de nouvelles, mais ce n'est pas de, si j'ai bien compris, de prendre un bulletin de nouvelles japonais ou chinois ou espagnol ou iranien et de le retransmettre sur nos ondes. C'est d'interpréter en même temps ce que ça signifie pour nous Canadiens l'événement dont on nous parle qui s'est produit dans ce pays d'Afrique ou d'Amérique Latine ou d'un autre endroit au monde.

1574 C'était l'essentiel de ce que je voulais vous dire et je ne veux pas quitter sans rappeler qu'on a parlé de attention à la compétition pour les langues chinoises ou pour les langues espagnoles ou italiennes, mais il reste que, on nous l'a promis, d'ici quelques années 60 pour cent de la programmation va être de contenu canadien -- 60 pour cent!

1575 Donc tout le monde entier vont se partager l'autre 40 pour cent et avec tout ce qu'il y a de disponible on n'a pas à craindre et il y a aussi quelque chose qui existe dans le domaine télévisuel qui sont ce qu'on appelle les fenêtres. Personne n'empêche personne d'avoir un film, par exemple, que deux ou trois postes de télévision voudraient avoir de donner une exclusivité de six mois à un poste de télévision, de six mois à un autre et après en non-exclusivité comme on le fait déjà depuis plusieurs années. On peut vendre un film à Movie Channel et à Bravo! ou à Bravo! et à CTV le même film ou la même émission avec des fenêtres d'exclusivité l'un pour l'autre.

1576 Vous savez, un jour j'ai eu le plaisir d'aller à Marbella et en circulant dans l'île je vois des hommes, des femmes ou des enfants et d'autres hommes en train de faire de la broderie. J'ai dit, "Des hommes qui brodent? Des enfants qui brodent assis sur le pas de la porte, sur le trottoir" et j'ai fouillé un peu ça pour me rendre compte que tout à coup un Anglais avait donné l'opportunité aux gens de l'île de faire de la broderie et presque tout le monde s'est découvert des talents pour faire de la broderie.

1577 Je dis ça parce que, ici au Canada, depuis une dizaine d'années surtout -- depuis 20 ans, mais surtout dix ans -- on a créé des opportunités extraordinaires pour développer la créativité dans le domaine de la télévision, de l'audiovisuel et du cinéma et parce qu'on stimulé cette créativité-là il y a peut-être aujourd'hui 1 000 personnes, 2 000 personnes, 5 000 personnes qui se sont découvertes des talents dans ce domaine-là qu'ils ne se seraient pas découverts si on ne leur avait pas donné l'opportunité.

1578 Lorsqu'une nouvelle demande comme celle de Télémonde fait qui nous promet le degré de contenu canadien...

1579 M. CUSSONS: Excusez, Monsieur Demers. C'est maintenant 15 minutes.

1580 M. DEMERS: Oh, excusez-moi, excusez-moi.

1581 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Vous pouvez résumer, Monsieur Demers.

1582 M. DEMERS: Je résumerai en disant que je suis ici en tant que Canadien avec des racines francophones qui considère le monde comme son village.

1583 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci. Monsieur le Conseiller Demers, s'il vous plaît.

1584 COMMISSAIRE DEMERS: Je n'ai pas de questions, Madame la Présidente. Monsieur Demers a répondu aux questions que j'avais l'intention de lui poser.

1585 Merci, Monsieur Demers.

1586 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Et voilà.

1587 M. DEMERS: Merci beaucoup. Excusez-moi de la durée.

1588 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Et bon voyage de retour.

1589 M. DEMERS: Merci.

1590 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary, please.

1591 MR. CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

1592 I would now like to invite Smart Ontario Mission to present its intervention.


1593 MR. LANDO: Good afternoon. My name is Reuben Lando and I have presented some documents to the Commissioners. Four documents, two of them representing some previous conferences that I did, one in 1985 titled "Computers and Human Development" and the second one is the "United Nations 50th Anniversary" document which was inviting people from all over the world to come to Canada to take part in a conference which would help them to develop themselves into becoming information societies.

1594 Presently the other two documents you have are two conferences currently co-located. The Linux Conference co-located with New Media 2000 which takes place in Toronto next week, May the 15th through the 18th, and I would invite the Commissioners, anyone who would wish to attend, to be coming as my personal guest.

1595 The reason behind the Linux Canada Conference was that we understand that this is going to have a very major impact on the developing countries and it will go a long way toward creating the goals that I set aside for myself 20 years ago, and that was to bring literacy programs to all the developing countries.

1596 Toward that goal, next year, 2001, at the very same Mitchell Toronto Conference Centre, I will be putting on a major education conference called "Education for All 2001", and at that forum we will be helping those delegates to understand how they can solve the problems that are currently available in the sense that the recent conference in Senegal stated that they could not foresee any chance whatsoever of bringing literacy to all the children in the world who don't have access to education from the "K" to Grade 8 level, and the 800 million illiterate adults who don't have access to education. They couldn't foresee doing that before the Year 2015.

1597 When I checked on the UNESCO Group, which had a recent conference in 1997, their next conference is taking place in 2009. So I decided that that is a shame and that is a disgrace and over the next five years I am going to attempt to bring education for all the children and adults in the world who don't have it, and I am here today to promote the World Television Network as an aide for me in promoting the work that I am doing.

1598 In terms of the previous work, the mention of the digital video disk here reminded me of all the statements that were made about captions today. You should also know that in the last three years I have been using digital video disks to teach English as a second language at my school in Toronto and we have been using musicals on film where the captions are provided and I put on the English captions along with the English voice. So it is possible to use the English voice on the English captions.

1599 In our case, I believe we are the only school in the world that is currently using digital video disk to teach languages. We can put seven voice languages on one disk and 32 captions at the same time, so there is an incredible potential here for those developing countries who do not have internet access and do not have the more advanced technology where all we need to do is put a computer in a room with an electrical outlet and they can do their programming on DVDs.

1600 So I'm very excited about the potential here because of the emphasis on the captions in the World Television Network and I'm looking forward to assisting in any way I could in the development of programs that would be high quality programs that we could then be utilizing, especially in English as a second language, but any other language as well where we could promote the use of the technology and promote it as a Canadian solution.

1601 I think I will stop there and answer your questions.

1602 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Lando.

1603 Commissioner Wilson, please.

1604 COMMISSIONER WILSON: Thank you for being with us, Mr. Lando, but I have no questions for you.

1605 MR. LANDO: Thank you.

1606 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Lando, for your participation.

1607 Mr. Secretary, please.

1608 MR. CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

1609 I would now like to invite IMX Communications Incorporated to present its intervention, please.


1610 MR. KELLY: Madam Chair, Commissioners, ladies and gentlemen, my name is John Kelly. I am the Vice-President of Business Affairs for IMX Communications.

1611 IMX is a film and television production company founded in 1985 by Chris Zimmer. We have offices in Halifax and St. John's. Chris, the President of IMX, could not be here today as he is preparing to travel to France to the Cannes Film Festival. I am here on behalf of IMX and Chris to speak to you in support of the application by WTM for a broadcast licence.

1612 IMX and WTM have agreed to enter into a strategic alliance that will allow IMX to provide programming from the Atlantic region for broadcast by WTM. We are also prepared to invest equity in WTM should the need arise. We are very excited about the possible synergies this alliance presents.

1613 IMX is focused primarily on producing feature films, although they also produce television, animation and new media productions. As a feature film producer we have, since our first feature in 1987 -- "Mind Shadows", a Dutch-Canadian co-production concentrated primarily on international co-productions as a financing model.

1614 Since "Mind Shadows" we have completed nine theatrically released feature films of which three have been interprovincial co-productions and six international treaty co-productions. This is an unprecedented record of feature film production in English Canada for a company of our size.

1615 Over the past 13 years IMX has developed partnerships with film makers, distributors, investors and financiers in the United States, Germany, the United Kingdom, Iceland, South Africa, the Netherlands and Venezuela, as well as across Canada. Our productions have appeared on the CBC and CTV, as well as BBC and FOX, to name only a few of our broadcasting partners.

1616 In your local video store you can pick up a copy of IMX's "Love and Death on Long Island", "Margaret's Museum" or "The Real Howard Spitz". Next month you will be able to see our most recent co-production, "New Waterford Girl" in your local theatres.

1617 Most of our films go to festivals to attract the initial attention of critics and foreign distributors. "New Waterford Girl" has been awarded Best Canadian Feature at the 1999 Atlantic and Sudbury Film Festivals.

1618 "Love and Death on Long Island", a Canada-U.K. co-production, won its British director -- or British Oscar for Best Newcomer to Film; won a Best New Director Award at Cannes; and won the New York Film Critic Society Award for Best First Feature for 1998.

1619 "Margaret's Museum" won six Genies in 1997; People's Choice Award at the Atlantic Film Festival; the Best Canadian Feature at the Vancouver Film Festival; and the Best Film at the San Sebastien International Film Festival in Spain.

1620 Those are only our feature films. Currently we are in production with an Ottawa-based animation studio, Fun Bag Animation, on an animated series for Teletoon based on Lynn Johnson's popular comic strip "For Better or For Worse". One of our co-production partners for this show is the diversified Bombay-based media group, RMUSL.

1621 In order to stay in touch with changing financing models and audience viewership climates, we travel to film festivals and conferences throughout the world, including television events such as the Banff Television Festival, MIP and MIPCOM and Cannes, and film events such as the Cannes, Toronto, Berlin and Venice Film Festivals.

1622 The goal of these events is to meet existing and potential partners, to generate new co-production opportunities and to sell our product with our sales agents in the international marketplace.

1623 As I mentioned earlier, Chris Zimmer is en route to Cannes. He will be there to finalize the financing of our latest feature project "Partition". This, by the way, is the kind of film we believe would play very well on WTM. It is an epic love story of a Sikh and Muslim set in 1947 during the partition of British India at the formation of the nation that is today Pakistan.

1624 While we travel frequently to far away festivals to meet new partners, occasionally there are opportunities in our own backyard. Next week in Halifax 1,100 delegates, producers and broadcasters from across Canada and around the globe, will meet at the CBC-sponsored "Input 2000" to discuss the challenges of public broadcasting. We view this as a tremendous opportunity to meet new broadcasting partners and we will certainly be discussing our involvement with WTM in any projects that could benefit from WTM licences in 2001.

1625 I have outlined in some detail IMX's global accomplishments to give you a sense of our cosmopolitan perspective. Film and television producers must not only look internationally for their audience and distribution, but must also look overseas for creative and financial partnerships in developing and producing new programming. What better way to reach a global audience than by collaborating with our international neighbours to tell stories that capture the imagination of their viewers as much as ours in Canada?

1626 It is this philosophy that leads IMX to fully support today's application by WTM.

1627 In addition to our support of the principle of drawing programming from around the world for Canadian audiences, IMX intends to work with WTM to produce Canadian multicultural programming for licence by WTM, multicultural programming that reflects the multicultural diversity of WTM's audience. We intend to draw on our international partnership with broadcasters and producers to create opportunities for film, documentary and drama programming that is global in scope and meets WTM's broadcast mandate.

1628 What is exciting about WTM's approach is the opportunity to tell stories in the language that is appropriate to their telling. For example, our first film, "Mind Shadows", was shot mostly in Dutch with only about 20 per cent of the dialogue spoken in English. The film was subtitled in English and Dutch and, as an official treaty co-production, qualified for content subsidies in each of our respective countries. The film about the debilitating effects of Alzheimers on a couple's relationship was a critical and commercial success in each of our countries and in overseas markets.

1629 Through our existing partnerships and strategic relationships, IMX can facilitate the commissioning of co-productions for programming overseas by international broadcasters, thus leveraging Canadian financing opportunities and WTM's broadcast licence into bigger budget shows with greater production values.

1630 A recent example of this occurred in March when Chris Zimmer attended the Dublin Film Festival. He met with some Dublin-based animators who are interested in co-producing one of our new animation film projects. They were able to offer equity, licences and services which additional financial resources have enabled us to increase the projected budget for this film by 33 per cent. The end result will be literally on the screen, a film which looks better in theatres and on television and thus has the potential to reach a wider audience.

1631 In coming years we hope to be able to leverage WTM's participation as a Canadian broadcaster in providing programming which will benefit in just this way from the co-production method of financing.

1632 In addition to our expertise in financing and producing programming, IMX can draw on its resources in Halifax to produce content for WTM. In partnership with several Halifax-based television industry equipment companies, IMX owns a complex called Cinesite, incorporating three sound stages with over 16,000 square feet of space and over 6,000 square feet of production office space. Film, sound and video edit suites and other equipment are already located at Cinesite at our partner's operations. Cinesite could form the base for WTM's Atlantic region operations.

1633 The other component of infrastructure is human. There is a growing professional crew base in Halifax that would be available to participate in the programming IMX intends to supply to WTM. Production in Nova Scotia alone has grown from annual revenues below $6 million in 1990 to $130 million in 1999.

1634 Twenty-five hundred direct jobs were created or maintained in 1999. While I can't give you numbers for P.E.I., New Brunswick or Newfoundland, there are similar developments and growth curves in each of those provinces.

1635 Having a broadcaster with a commitment to licence productions from the Atlantic region will ensure continued employment for a greater percentage of technicians throughout the currently lean off season.

1636 Halifax is a vibrant centre for the Atlantic region. The cultural diversity of Atlantic Canada goes well beyond the Scottish and Gaelic heritage which is so often associated with this region. Vibrant Aboriginal, Acadian, French, Caribbean, African-Canadian, German, Asian, Italian and Middle Eastern communities exist in urban and rural areas throughout Atlantic Canada. These communities form an integral and unique part of the Canadian multicultural mosaic and would benefit from their stories and histories being part of the Canadian television world. IMX intends to draw on producers from these communities throughout Atlantic Canada to commission programming for licence to WTM.

1637 In short, IMX is very excited about the possible synergies in its strategic alliance with WTM. The alliance offers IMX and WTM an opportunity to share expertise and an opportunity to leverage each other's strengths to the advantage of a Canadian audience that has expressed a strong desire for the type of programming that WTM will provide.

1638 The Board of Directors of IMX, its officers and employees, are firmly committed to working with WTM to help to realize Dan Iannuzzi's goals of creating a Canadian multicultural broadcaster bringing the best programming in the world, programming with a truly global perspective to Canadians and allowing all groups of Canadians to speak, not merely to themselves but to each other.

1639 Thank you very much for the opportunity to appear today.

1640 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Kelly.

1641 Your position and the reason for your support is quite obvious, but in case Mr. Iannuzzi hasn't noticed, I will tell him that you appear to be a good potential partner.

1642 MR. KELLY: Thank you.

1643 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much for your participation.

1644 Mr. Secretary, please.

1645 MR. CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

1646 We will now hear the intervention by C. Ken Marchant.

1647 THE CHAIRPERSON: Go ahead, Mr. Marchant.


1648 MR. MARCHANT: Thank you, Madam Chair, Commissioners.

1649 I am appearing before you as a friend and supporter of the applicant, WTM. I might mention I have a law and public policy practice and I also direct a multidisciplinary research institute called Lycurgus.

1650 Like many Canadians I am a hockey parent. My son plays PeeWee hockey and, like many hockey parents, I notice it is not the same as when I played, apart from the fact that my son is a better player. It costs a lot more. We took our shovels to clear an outdoor rink. Our kids go by car to Zamboni-fresh ice.

1651 But the most striking thing, particularly at the AA level my son plays at -- which is roughly the top 10 per cent -- is the number of kids whose parents weren't born in Canada. One sees faces and hears accents, from all over the world at every Toronto hockey league game. For example, the captain of my son's team is a Greek Canadian. The leading scorer is North African.

1652 There are few more conspicuous ways of making it into the Canadian mainstream than making it in competitive hockey.

1653 Another important mainstream is television. The Commission has done many things to adapt the face of Canadian television to the changing face of Canada.

1654 I would like to begin with a perhaps a less-noticed example: Employment equity, particularly for on-air performers.

1655 These Commission policies have ensured that Canadian television would look more like Canada in terms of four under-represented groups, including visible minorities.

1656 The basis for these policies is section 3(1)(d)(iii) of the Broadcasting Act, one of the same sections the Commission uses to evaluate programming applications.

1657 It says:

"(d) the Canadian broadcasting system should ...

(iii) ... serve ..., and reflect the circumstances and aspirations, of Canadian[s] ..., including ...

equal rights, ...

linguistic duality ...

[the] multicultural and multiracial nature of Canadian society ...

and the special place of aboriginal peoples ..."

1658 In the last two years, the Commission has taken two important steps to fulfil section 3(1)(d)(iii) in terms of the national lineup of channels on our cable dials.

1659 Dans un premier temps, le Conseil a approuvé la distribution obligatoire, à l'échelle nationale, du service TVA, afin de permettre au plus grand nombre de francophones et francophiles à travers le Canada de recevoir ce signal.

1660 And in Decision 1992-42 the Commission licensed the Aboriginal Peoples Television Network for mandatory carriage on a national basis. A key rationale which the Commission cited is that APTN is a general interest television service which contributes to the objectives of section 3(1)(d)(iii).

1661 The WTM application before you today is an opportunity to add a major missing component that is contemplated by section 3(1)(d)(iii): A general interest service, reflecting Canada's multicultural and multiracial character, for all Canadians, on a national basis.

1662 The applicant has not asked the Commission to make an order for mandatory carriage under section 9(1)(h) of the Act and section 17(5) of the Distribution Regulations. WTM has asked for "dual carriage" status, which means basic unless WTM agrees otherwise with the cable or other direct-to-home distributor.

1663 However, I think it is instructive to look at what a strong case could be made for mandatory carriage.

1664 Considerations motivating the Commission to require mandatory carriage are set out in the TVA and APTN decisions. The circumstances of a national multicultural network are not identical, but I do suggest there are a number of interesting similarities.

1665 If I can depart briefly from the text before you, my answer to the question of Commission Counsel this morning is that the Commission has set out clear tests for basic carriage in the TVA and APTN decisions.

1666 The APTN application, for example, is consistent with the Commission's vision for desirable new national networks. It provides a positive window for all Canadians on a vital minority cultural sector. It builds communications bridges. In short, it will benefit all parts of the cultural mosaic, the marvellous term coined by John Meisel, a former CRTC Chair.

1667 Mandatory carriage for APTN is expressly consistent with section 3(1)(d)(iii), to serve and reflect Canada on the basis of:

"...equal rights ... linguistic duality ... [the] multicultural and multiracial nature of Canadian society and the special place of aboriginal peoples."

1668 APTN will provide programming in French, a key to distribution in Quebec. Programming services -- and WTM will be one of them -- in both official languages are a rarity in the Canadian broadcasting system.

1669 APTN deservedly received substantial intervenor support. The main exceptions were reluctant cable distributors who advocated, as they did today, digital distribution. The Commission noted this would render the service uneconomic.

1670 Dans la décision TVA, il était question et de servir et de refléter les collectivités d'expression française hors Québec. Le marché de langue française à l'extérieur du Québec ne peut pas justifier l'implantation de stations affiliées de façon rentable.

1671 La situation est pareille en ce qui concerne la télévision multilingue. Même CFMT à Toronto semble avoir besoin de 40 pour cent de programmation généraliste, d'origine américaine principalement, pour être rentable; et on connaît l'histoire récente du service de télévision multilingue à Montréal.

1672 Considérant la capacité accrue de distribution depuis 1980, le Conseil a estimé anachronique qu'à l'aube de l'an 2000 un autre service de télévision de langue française ne soit toujours pas offert à l'ensemble des Canadiens.

1673 Commissioners, I submit that similar considerations apply to the application before you.

1674 WTM is a national, general interest, network service.

1675 WTM will be accessible to both official language groups.

1676 WTM will provide a positive window on multiculturalism for all Canadians.

1677 It will build communications bridges.

1678 It will benefit all parts of the cultural mosaic.

1679 It will provide high-quality Canadian and international, but non-mainstream U.S. programming, increasing program choice and diversity in under-served sectors.

1680 The WTM application has received broad intervenor support.

1681 It is expressly consistent with paragraph 3(1)(d)(iii), to serve and reflect Canada on the basis of:

"...equal rights, ... linguistic duality ... and [the] multicultural and multiracial nature of Canadian society".

1682 Perhaps most important, it will fill in missing faces in the group portrait of Canadians which our lineup of cable channels represents.

1683 I urge the Commission to ensure that World Television will be available on basic cable and DTH service for all Canadians.

1684 Thank you.

1685 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Marchant.

1686 Commissioner Langford, please.

1687 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Nice to see you again. It must be about 25 years, hasn't it? I think we last ran into each other 25 -- it's amazing how the old faces are coming through here, you know. Yours isn't old, of course, it's mine. It's my eyes, I can just see the blur.

1688 I was taken by your reliance on what we could call the diversity objectives of the Act, and I think the phrase you used, I jotted it down, was: This is an opportunity to add a major missing component.

1689 But we heard intervenors today who would argue that they have been adding that component and struggling very hard to add it. Maybe not as well as this particular application could add it, but Fairchild, the other -- Telelatino, I'm sorry. Thank you, I lost it there -- speaking for the services that they offer felt that this would possibly be a death blow to them.

1690 How do you balance that in your mind? I mean, that can't come as a surprise to you. You have been in this business many years and you know about these components, as you call it. How do you balance the damage that might be done to these, if I can call them pioneers in trying to add this component, if this new application were to be brought into being.

1691 MR. MARCHANT: I'm not someone who has studied the economics carefully and I would be unfair to somebody if I were to pronounce on them, so I have to make a more general response to your question.

1692 I have participated in a number of CRTC hearings over the years and it is a standard feature, as you know, for competitors to maintain before the Panel that things will be very dire if that application is allowed, and I think it has pretty rarely happened. I think there are bound to be legitimate issues, but I believe you can address those in regulatory terms.

1693 In preparing my presentation, I did look at CRTC 1998-135, your review of broadcasting policy to reflect Canada's linguistic and ethnic diversity, and I think it is important that in regulatory terms the Commission does slot or characterize ethnic broadcasting as playing a very particular role. It is intended for a narrowcast audience. It is a different kind of broadcaster than -- very different kind, in my view, than WTM is proposing.

1694 I think certainly the weight of the evidence that persuades me that I have heard today and drawing on my own experience is that WTM will broadly strengthen this whole sector.

1695 I am very surprised that there are only 50,000 subscribers for Chinese television in Toronto because my friend Bob Wong told me there are 450,000 Chinese there. I mean, there is a bigger market to penetrate.

1696 Perhaps I will just stop there because I think I have given you the flavour of my reaction. I hope that partly answers your question.

1697 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Well, I think it does, I mean it does partly, and yet though you draw a distinction between the sort of ethnic broadcasting in the same distinction that was made by the applicant in that they are not an ethnic broadcaster but a general more conventional network approach, the numbers -- and of course the numbers are difficult to read, but the numbers in their market study do lead us to believe that there is a hard core out there somewhere.

1698 Now, we don't know, they are not identified, but there is a hard core -- I think 20 per cent was kind of an agreed upon number -- of people who will readily jump to this service, who are keen, who are a 5 on a scale of 1 to 5. They could in fact be exactly the same people who are watching some of these specialty providers now, some of these specialty services, and if that were so this could hurt them.

1699 Which is all very speculative, but do you agree that there is a limited market for people who are at the top end of this, the very excited by the prospect?

1700 MR. MARCHANT: Well, I would be surprised if that's limited for WTM. I think it is potentially a fairly big one.

1701 And in relation to the existing ethnic broadcasters, I mean WTM might have an Asian night one night, but that is just one night. I mean, Fairchild is on every night and Telelatino is on every night.

1702 But I guess what I would like to come back to is the main point of what I was trying to make, which is that I think that this kind of service deserves to be on basic carriage as a fundamental component of the Canadian broadcasting system.

1703 I don't think anybody 20 years ago would have believe we could stand 50 channels or 60 channels and yet we can, right? But when I turn on my cable and I get 70-odd channels there is a big missing piece there. I do get Telelatino and I do watch it a bit because I do speak a bit of Spanish, but that is not the Canada that I see when I go grocery shopping, when I take my son, as I said, to hockey or to school.

1704 I think that the section 3(1)(d) of the Broadcasting Act talks about equal rights, linguistic duality, multicultural and multiracial nature of Canada and aboriginal peoples and I see all of those except for one in basic cable and I think this is the opportunity to put in that missing component.

1705 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: It's clear. Thank you very much.

1706 Perhaps you could lend the Leafs that kid from North Africa, your high scorer. They could have used him last night.

1707 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Marchant.

1708 Mr. Secretary.

1709 MR. CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

1710 We will now hear the intervention from the Price Group Incorporated.

--- Pause / Pause

1711 MR. CUSSONS: I understand they are not with us.

1712 So, therefore, I will invite World Media Institute to present its intervention, please.

1713 THE CHAIRPERSON: Go ahead when you are ready.


1714 MR. KINES: Thank you, Madam Chairman.

1715 I want to make you the Honorary Godfather of my newest grandchild born into this century, and if sitting where you are sitting and facing a room that would be four times the number of people that are in this room, 200 people, if he was the only Canadian he would represent the 30 million Canadians and the 200 people sitting here would represent the rest of the world's people.

1716 What I ask you to consider are the implications of that for my grandson, being in a world where he is the only Canadian in a world of 200 people and, pray tell, how is he going to go forward if what he alone hears largely is from a few of them who are Americans and Europeans and nothing of the 120 who are Asians and similar proportions?

1717 I was brought up as a soldier during the Korean War training in map reading and learned quickly that if you don't know where you have come from, you can't find out where you are, and if you don't know where you are you sure as hell don't know where you are going.

1718 I think right now that in this world Canadians don't know where they are going in terms of the realistic environment of what we are getting in the way of information.

1719 I became a correspondent for the Winnipeg Free Press when I was 15, and I did so because I had reached the conclusion that there were enough ideas in the world to save the world, but they had to be spread around and I wanted to learn how to communicate and eventually to learn what to communicate because I felt that the media were influencing my village, but my village did not know how to influence the media.

1720 I had the opportunity later to go back with CBC Prairies and begin something called "Manitoba Mirror" to reflect the people, places and sounds of Manitoba towns and to come to believe that broadcasting is meant to reflect the people, not just direct the people.

1721 I raise that issue because I think what we are facing here today is a moral issue, not an economic or political issue.

1722 The man whose song we sing about "Amazing Grace" actually influenced the young British Member of Parliament, William Wilberforce who came from a constituency that contributed greatly to the slave trade, which was the number one economic factor in British life when Wilberforce was an M.P. and Pitt was the Prime Minister. Wilberforce came to believe that what was morally wrong could never be economically or politically right and he set out to bring about the abolition of the slave trade when Britain was at the apex of the slave trade. If you read that account of how he came to make that a moral issue on the belief that if the British people were to grow spiritually and morally, they had to stop the slave trade.

1723 I think we are in that position now in the world. We are in a great position of privilege in the world. We are sitting on an abnormal amount of the earth's resources and we have privileges that we do not know the implications of as we sit looking at a world that is 200 times the size of us in terms of people and we aren't listening to them.

1724 Where the hell are we going?

1725 Morris Strong, who has represented this country in many spheres has a book that is about to come out in a few days called "Where in the World Are We Going?"

1726 When I came back from being the head of communications for the United Nations and avoiding the kind of confrontation that we recently had in Seattle and Washington by allowing thousands of NGOs to participate in the Stockholm Conference rather than telling them it was none of their business, I realized then and shortly thereafter that we had to find a way to share one air supply, one water supply and one basic supply of human resources.

1727 I ask you: How can we work that out with 200 people in this room who represent the world people if you alone are the other person, as Canadians are in that kind of context? How are we going to learn to share and work out our destiny if we know so bloody little about them because we are getting nothing but practically North American media and European?

1728 I ask you to consider this: When I joined the CBC we had more correspondents in the world than we have today. We had the BBC head of news at our World Press Freedom Day last Wednesday, the head of 150 correspondents. We have at this time fewer correspondents in Canadian media that the "Christian Science Monitor" has reporters abroad.

1729 We are being very sadly let down in terms of knowing what the hell is going on in the world, because we seem to think that what is economically good for us and politically good for us is ultimately the only thing that counts, and that just isn't true.

1730 As my grandson's guardian angel, Madam Chairman, I ask you to consider what are the moral implications for 30 million people in a world of 6 billion and growing fast. I don't know anybody who believes that we can stop it short of 10 billion and I would like to know how we are going to survive if we don't know very much about what is happening to them.

1731 We really need some greater means of reflecting the people, not directing the people. I say that this initiative supports that, but the CRTC really needs to move forward to find out other ways.

1732 I came back from Africa, I went into western Manitoba with my wife and organized West Man Media Cooperative. With $25,000 we set up an organization which you well know. It now has, I believe, over 30 licences and makes millions of dollars, which it returns those resources to the people of western Manitoba and elects the people who govern those channels.

1733 The reason I set it up was so the people of western Manitoba could choose what kind of information could come to them to make them global citizens. But there is a catch. You are the ones who decided what can come to them and what they can schedule onto those systems that West Man Media has in each of its villages where it elects community committees and a regional committee, because the CRTC has that mandate.

1734 Well, I ask you on behalf of my grandson and of the people of western Manitoba, whom I have represented elected as the Chairman of the Board at West Man Media, let us get the world into our heads and into our hearts.

1735 We are sending troops all over the world and asking them to represent us in peacekeeping operations. I spent four hours last night with the Ambassador of Eritrea and we are going to be certainly going in there, as we are in many situations, as we did in 1884 by sending people from the Red River and from the Ottawa Valley up the Nile to help bring about the end of the slave trade.

1736 We are going to be continuing to do that for the next 50 or 75 years, your children and my grandchildren and children, and we have to live in that context. The only way we are going to live in that context is begin to let it filter through, Madam Chairman.

1737 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

1738 Commissioner Noël, please.

1739 COMMISSIONER NOËL: I don't have any more questions.

1740 Thank you very much for a nice presentation.

1741 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Kines.

1742 You better check with your wife before offering me one of your grandchildren, if not with the child.

--- Laughter / Rires

1743 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary, please.

1744 MR. CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

1745 I have been advised that one of our intervenors has to leave very shortly, so that being the case I would like to invite Joseph Volpe, M.P., to present his intervention, please.


1746 MR. VOLPE: Madam Chair and Commissioners, you must find it a little unusual to have a Member of Parliament come forward in support of an applicant. That would be unusual -- no, it isn't? Well, then I thought we were getting into the rarity rather than uniqueness.

1747 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Volpe, I don't want to disappoint you, but you come after Cabinet Ministers.

1748 MR. VOLPE: Former.

1749 THE CHAIRPERSON: I guess so, because I guess the Cabinet Minister would probably have a problem.

1750 MR. VOLPE: Yes, she might. But Members of Parliament don't, and I'm glad that former Members of Parliament and former Cabinet Ministers don't as well either.

1751 I am especially pleased because I guess that puts me in good company, company of those who view applicants such as this and applications such as this one as consistent with the evolving concept of what Canada is and a development of a country that reflects the realities of its inhabitants, its citizens and those who make it what it will be.

1752 Now, I might just reflect on this from a personal basis for a moment, because the applicant is also my constituent and I have seen this application develop from its infancy some 10 years ago. Since then my hair has gotten thinner and it has gotten a little lighter. It reflects the colour I used to have when I was a child.

1753 Unfortunately, over the course of those last 10 years the application has met a variety of obstacles. Without fingering blame and accountability, the fact of the matter is it was a great idea 10 years ago. Like good and great ideas, they mature and become better.

1754 I think that the applicant and the application have been vindicated over the course of the years that have transpired, that their concept has gone from a concept that was looked at with some scepticism to one that now is no longer by the general public viewed as some idea difficult to realize but one that reflects where the public is today.

1755 The public, if it is to be well served by its governments, communication and cultural policy, its broadcasting policy, must see itself reflected in what is surely one of the most important mediums of the day.

1756 I'm one of those members of the public who until very recently could not identify himself very often in what he saw transmitted on air. And many like me would have found a similar difficulty in recognizing an image of Canada that reflected an experience and, if I might use the language, the aspirations of one like myself.

1757 So who are we? You can say, "Well, listen, you are a Member of Parliament -- current -- surely this is an exaggeration or perhaps it is descending into hyperbole.

1758 Quite the contrary. I guess I'm one of those people who have become Canadians by choice and in becoming Canadians by choice I guess we feel, and I feel, that we evaluate our contributions and we assess and analyze our roles on a daily basis.

1759 The integration process that is important in building the country must reflect those roles on an ongoing basis. Validity must be given to the traditions which spawn us. Currency must be added to the experiences which we bring to the table. There are a great many worthwhile, valid experiences of Canada in the context of the cultural mosaic that was generated by the so-called founding nations.

1760 But, you know, a student of Canadian history will surely and quickly discover that the political history of Canada necessarily restricts the reflections of many other peoples who have contributed to making this the great place that it is.

1761 I think the CRTC, the Commission, has an opportunity with this application to finally give a sense of meaning to those who want to see themselves reflected in those images that are part and parcel of life today.

1762 I was excited when I first looked at this application and I thought it made eminent sense, but I wasn't on the Commission. I was excited because I said for the first time we will have an opportunity, those roughly 6 million of us who are -- now an outdated term but I use it nonetheless -- naturalized Canadians, that we will be able to see ourselves in the spectrum of our past and our future, but also through those experiences where those that we left behind have evolved and developed. We get to see ourselves in the mirror of what we might have been and what we currently contribute.

1763 I was excited even more because it seemed to give a sense, a real sense to some of those policies which I have been very fortunate to be a part of, i.e., the diffusion of the Canadian experience on a world basis, both through our economic policies, our trade policies. I'm sure you are all very familiar.

1764 Once you strip all of our political sayings -- our political programs of the rhetoric, really we do rely on international commerce. Some 35 per cent of our GDP is immediately reliant on trade, a good portion of that outside of North America.

1765 The Mayor of Toronto is fond of saying that we are home to over 100 nations, 169 different languages. That means 169 different perspectives on the world, 169 different ways of communicating that experience, 169 different ways of seeing how Canada will develop. But that is just in Toronto.

1766 I have had the good fortune, because I am a Member of Parliament, to travel around the country to far away places -- and they are far away, both in distance and in culture: Vancouver; Victoria; Calgary; Edmonton; Winnipeg; St. John's, Newfoundland recently, Ste-Anne-de-Beaupré. We have an obligation, I think, to each and every one of us to develop those ties which relay to all of our co-citizens the opportunity to see the neighbour, our neighbour, in the way that he or she might wish to be seen.

1767 If there is a cultural metropolis for English Canada, whether that be London, New York, Los Angeles, and if there is a cultural metropolis for Francophone Canada, whether that is Quebec City or Paris, surely there is a cultural and spiritual metropolis for the 40-plus per cent of Canadians who don't identify themselves with either of the categories.

1768 So this kind of application finally affords those people, those Canadians, those who contribute to nurturing those other two great nations, those other two great roots, it affords them the opportunity to live the experience in the same way and to be reflected in the Canadian experience in the same way.

1769 So, as I said in my written submission to you, Madam Chair and Members of the Commission, for me it was very easy, I was pleased, and I think I acknowledged that, that the Commission was hearing this particular application. The decision would be a slam dunk, as they say in basketball, it would be absolutely yes.

1770 But equally important, and perhaps even moreso, that it come with the indication that it be carried on basic cable. It has to be carried there. It has to be. It has to be immediately accessible to the largest number of Canadians.

1771 If this is a truly valid application, as I believe firmly it to be, and if you see it the same way, then it must be available immediately to all Canadians who are cable subscribers.

1772 I know that the application initially called for elapsed time where there would be service provided in French as well. I wanted to firm up my impression by saying that I didn't want to make a distinction between English and French, that the application be immediately granted and be granted for immediate service -- immediate I guess you are talking in terms of this year or in the most immediate time frame available -- to both linguistic groups in the country.

1773 Now, Madam, you have been most patient and you were also generous enough to put me on ahead of others who had been here before, so I will stop there, because I think the point is always best made when it is brief and it is ended.

1774 Give them a licence and put it on basic.

1775 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

1776 Commissioner Langford, please.

1777 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: You mentioned your hair changing colours. I have found around the Commission it is not quite as obvious with the current crop, but the men are becoming, at our age, naturally bald and the women are becoming naturally blonde. It's a very strange phenomena that goes on here.

1778 Just really one question, because you talked eloquently or you are clear. There is really no point just to ask questions simply to make you feel more welcome, but there is one question that strikes me.

1779 Because you spoke about the applicants not only as meritorious in and of themselves, but also as constituents, and we had others of your constituents here today, taking Toronto more generally -- I can't put them exactly in your constituency. They may be.

1780 MR. VOLPE: That's okay. I have sort of an imperialistic tendency.

1781 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I have heard that. It has been bantered around. But we won't go there, as the kids say.

1782 But they are worried about it. They see the merit of it. They have obviously been, as I said to one of the other intervenors here, the pioneers in bringing ethnic broadcasting, if we can call it that, they are worried about program costs being bid up and about the uneven playing field. This new applicant would be on basic, they are stuck on a discretionary tier where people have to pony up extra money to watch them. There is a certain fear factor there for these people who have done such good work for the cause that you have so eloquently spoken for this afternoon.

1783 How do you answer them? Have you given that any thought? Have you dealt with these people and their fears?

1784 MR. VOLPE: Well, Mr. Langford, thank you for bringing to my attention the concerns of some of my constituents.

1785 And they are right, they are right to express fears because in so doing what they are telling you is, they are saying "There are certain interests. These are our interests." But what they are also telling you, and this is why I think they are right, is they are proving to you that kind of intervention that the fears that existed a few years ago when that concept first came forward are really groundless.

1786 In fact, what we have seen -- and you can attest to that better than I -- is that the pie in communications, in programming has really expanded. It hasn't been a zero sum game.

1787 The people from the competitors or competition, the rivals, whatever -- I think of them as their colleagues, the applicant's colleagues -- I don't think that they have suffered at all as competition has increased. In fact, one of the intervenors is a former associate of the applicant. The applicant was, I guess you might say, the pioneer in television programming in multilingual television and multicultural television.

1788 Well, the pie that that particular competitor got into has expanded, I daresay exponentially. And there have been other competitors, I'm sure they have already appeared before the Commission, they too have seen growth, and the reason they have seen growth is there is a huge demand for that kind of programming.

1789 I don't think they are going to drive up costs. There are programmers galore, especially from Montreal, from Toronto, home grown programmers. These are people who are going to profit greatly, I think, by having someone else in the field. The market is expanding, it is not constricting.

1790 When I take a look at the statistics, since it is Canada statistics about who lives in the country, what kind of languages they use on a daily basis, I am absolutely flabbergasted that somebody would say the kinds of things that are attributed to those who would approach another applicant as a potential diminution as opposed to one that encourages and expands the field.

1791 It's a little bit like saying, you know, how many more internet providers can we have, you know. What is it? It's a very small percentage of us who are currently on the Internet. A very small percentage of us actually have PCs. The number is growing by leaps and bounds.

1792 I am fond of saying this, and I hope you will forgive me, Mr. Langford, but I have a couple of young boys, two of my children who have just gotten out of school. I am very proud of them and so I hope you will forgive this reflection.

1793 One is in IT consulting. I didn't even know what that was. Another one is in e-commerce development and web site development, and I didn't even know what that was. They said, "Dad" -- this is only a few months ago -- "here, I'm going to flick this thing on for you, you are going to take a look at what you have to do if you don't want to become a dinosaur in communication before the end of this year, the Year 2000." I said, "Well, either you guys are smoking something, or maybe I have a different read of communications and people and politics."

1794 Well, they proved me wrong. What they did is they showed me very, very quickly, in the course of the last three months, how the growth in new communications media doesn't necessarily mean there is a restriction on somebody else's terrain. The growth in television programming, the growth in this kind of programming, the growth in the marketplace for those who, like the competitors of the applicant, that marketplace is not shrinking, it is increasing.

1795 My children were born here and they thirst for this type of programming, not of the insistence of their father, but I find of their own volition. It is important for me to observe these things because my career, my job depends on understanding my constituents. They vote. My children seem to be reflective of that younger generation that is looking for that experience and they have to see it in the media that is most immediate to them.

1796 You know, they flick on one channel -- I don't know whether you are like this, Mr. Langford, I certainly am. I have this thumb, it is the most operative digit on my hand -- but I keep looking for everything and I stop when I see something that is of interest to me. I don't have brand loyalty. What I do have is an enormous desire to see something that is Canadian. I'm happy to say that my family and my family's friends seem to have the same thing.

1797 What is Canadian? I think I gave you a sense of what that is. I can't agree that the market is restricted and that they will be harmed financially, I can only encourage them to continue doing what they are doing because the market will expand.

1798 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thank you very much.

1799 Those are my questions.

1800 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Volpe, for your participation

1801 MR. VOLPE: Thank you to you and your Commissioners.

1802 Thank you very much.

1803 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary, please.

1804 MR. CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

1805 We will now hear the intervention by UTV International (Canada) Limited.


1806 MR. KHARAS: Thank you very much.

1807 Good afternoon ladies and gentlemen. Do you want me to come there?

1808 COMMISSIONER WILSON: The closer, the better.

1809 MR. KHARAS: I don't think any of you know who I am, so let me start with that.

1810 I served as Executive Director of the United Nations in Canada for five years. After that I was briefly a Nonpartisan Immigration Refugee Policy Advisor to the Minister of Immigration. Lest there be any thought of collusion between Gerry Weiner and myself, it wasn't Gerry Weiner.

1811 I then headed the Immigration Refugee Board's backlog subdivision which cleared the largest number of immigrants and refugees in Canadian history.

1812 I then became an international television producer. It is a bit of a metamorphosis and some day if you want I will tell you how I got from immigration to producing film and television, but anyway.

1813 I started this company called UTV International out of my basement in my house in Nepean, Ontario. Today the company produces over 2,000 hours of television programming in seven languages.

1814 I have very large studios in India, Malaysia and Singapore. I do in-flight programming for 22 international airlines. My programs are seen in 67 countries around the world, mainly in developing countries, by over 200 million people every day. My name goes on five daily soap operas as the producer or executive producer.

1815 I do animation. In fact, one of the other intervenors commented that his co-production on an animation project was RMUSL in India. RMUSL is actually owned by UTV in India which has a connection with me.

1816 You probably have never heard of me, yet I have, as a Canadian, a very high profile in many parts of the world in the media industry. I am going to use that background to tell you a little bit about why I am supporting this application.

1817 Mr. Langford has been asking direct questions and I'm not so sure that Mr. Langford has been getting direct answers, so I am going to give him direct answers based on my experience of where I have come from and where I am.

1818 I honestly don't think that the CRTC can turn down this application very easily. You will say a lot if you turn down this application. You will say a lot to Canadians who are not from Britain or France, and you will say a lot to the rest of the world that looks to Canada.

1819 Let me give you the last perspective, because I don't think anybody up here today has talked about how Canada -- how we are viewed in the rest of the world and what you as the regulatory agency are going to say to the rest of the world if this application is turned down.

1820 I'm going to be fairly blunt, Mr. Langford, with those intervenors that came here from ethnic channels and said that this application shouldn't be granted.

1821 Here we are in Kingston, Ontario and a gentleman in one sentence said: Don't give the application unless you exempt -- I think it was China, Taiwan, Malaysia, Indonesia and Singapore.

1822 I am the largest independent producer in Singapore and the second largest independent producer in Malaysia. My partner in Malaysia is the royal family of Malaysia. My partner in Singapore is the News Corporation, one of the world's biggest media companies. How dare somebody sit here and put the diversity of those countries, the history of those countries in film and television, the enormity of the hours that they produce, and reduce that in one sentence to a single channel that is on our pay television network.

1823 For heaven sakes, you can't not grant a licence because of that. That is reducing an enormity of film and television production in the world to one single channel, even if that one channel were to be broadly seen.

1824 Let me come to your question, sir. I don't know your name.

1825 Can you distinguish in programming? Yes, you can distinguish in programming by country, but beyond that think about what happens within countries.

1826 Asian Television Network, I know them. I know what they do and they buy Indian movies and Indian programming, and yet it's the world's largest film industry.

1827 I produced a movie in India, a Canadian movie in India called "Such a Long Journey". I don't know if any of you have seen it. It was a fairly good success in Canada. We won three Genies with it. It was nominated for 12 Genies. We have had good runs in the U.S. and the U.K. recently. That was a movie I was associated with. I was the supervising producer on it and everybody in India worked for me.

1828 Let me tell you that India has a diversity and a culture that goes well beyond what has been shown on the ATN. ATN buys what is called "Bollywood movies". They are the lowest common denominator created by good producers for the masses of India.

1829 India has Satyajit Ray's movies produced in Bengali, one of the world's great filmmakers. Do you think that Canadians are not entitled to see Satyajit Ray's movies because they are in Bengali? No, I don't think so and I think you would concur. You can make a distinction.

1830 There are some programs that will appeal to mainstream Canadians that don't necessarily appeal to ethnic Canadians that are produced in these kinds of countries.

1831 WTM is on the basic tier. If it were an applicant to bring in international programming to Canada on a single level with pay television in that country's language I would not support it.

1832 What has happened in developing countries is that so far they have only been able to export their products to those places that have ethnic channels. Well, it is time to move Asia and Africa and Latin America out from ethnicity and into the mainstream of Canada.

1833 That is what we are trying to do with WTM. That is my interpretation of what they are going to be doing and if I have any influence on it that's what they bloody well are going to do.

1834 I think -- I'm sorry about the passion. I only have 10 minutes. I have been sitting here stewing all day.

--- Laughter / Rires

1835 MR. KHARAS: I have to tell you that I have been startled by the lack of knowledge of the world that I have listened to in this room today. We have been isolated here. We have been listening in a sort of small manner in a myopic argument.

1836 Let me come, Mr. Langford, to the questions you have brought up often.

1837 What about them saying that we are going to be outbid by somebody else? Well, excuse me, but we are the world's second largest exporter of television programs.

1838 speak at numerous conferences, lecture at Harvard and Concordia Universities on protecting and exporting countries cultures. Why do we not want the prices of the Indian producers and Singapore producers and Italian producers to go up that they get from Canada, because when we try to sell "Due South" and everything else, we want the highest price for our product.

1839 So who cares if there is competition among Canadian channels for the rights in Canada. That is good for the world, for heaven's sakes, because Canadian producers benefit from the converse as the second largest producer. We want ITV to be competing against BBC, to be competing against everybody else in Britain for the rights of yourself in Britain. Good. That's good. That is what the world of media is all about.

1840 Let me come to this other question that was asked. What about demand? What about demand?

1841 If I had polled every single Indian television viewer and said "Do you want to watch programs from Canada?" they would have said "No, come on." You cannot poll Canadians to ask them "Do you want to watch Satyajit Ray's films?" when they have never seen it. Obviously the answer is probably going to be no, especially if they are going to have to pay for it.

1842 Let me give you the example. In India actually "Due South" is a very popular program. Nobody would have been able to poll Indians -- nobody would have been able to poll Indians and forecast that. Similarly, nobody is going to be able to poll Canadians and be able to forecast the receptivity of bringing the world's best television and cinema into their homes because they haven't had it.

1843 So you can't ask your question about something that people haven't seen and expect a positive response.

1844 That, as George Bernard Shaw said, is a smattering of everything and a knowledge of nothing. So I will stop here because I noticed the time. I'm sorry for taking so long and I will be happy to answer questions.

1845 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Wilson, please.

1846 COMMISSIONER WILSON: Thank you so much for your passionate presentation. It kind of livened things up at the end of the day.

1847 Just sort of two areas that I wanted to explore with you, one of which has been looked at by Commissioner Langford earlier.

1848 You actually said just a moment ago talking about the volume of programming that comes out of India, for example, the number of films that they produce. How many a week, or a day? I don't know. It's huge.

1849 MR. KHARAS: They produce about 800 movies a year.

1850 COMMISSIONER WILSON: Yes. It is a huge number.

1851 You talked about reducing an enormity of programming to one single channel. I would be the last person to argue about competition and encouraging competition as a healthy way for the marketplace to operate, but I just want to sort of go through a bit of the flip side of that with you. Because taking your points, is it not also a question of what the market can sustain?

1852 The role of the regulator, as you know, as long as there is one, is a delicate balancing act, because we can't really expect, you know, if you licence ethnic programming or third language broadcasters such as Fairchild or Telelatino, we can't expect them -- introducing another service into the mix which is carried on basic when they don't have the privilege, when they have very severe restrictions on what they are allowed to do and the new service doesn't, we can't expect them to do this out of the goodness of their hearts. They want to make money out of doing it. They want to service a market, they want to fill a niche and they want to potentially earn a profit. Maybe not a lot of profit.

1853 MR. KHARAS: Yes.

1854 COMMISSIONER WILSON: But if you look at -- let me just continue here for a second.

1855 If you look at Fairchild for example, and you say "Okay, you have 63,000 subscribers total across the country between Fairchild and Talentvision and those subscribers are paying either $9.95 a month or $19.95 a month, if all of a sudden you have a basic service coming online that is in eight million households on basic plus DTH, which is almost another million, what would be the incentive for people?

1856 For sure they are not going to be carrying, you know, Chinese programming every single day of the week, but what would be the incentive for them to pay $9.95 or $19.95 a month in order to get that service if they can get it somewhere else for 30 cents a month?

1857 Like what happens to the business case of a channel like Fairchild, and should we care? Because if we take your model and extend it all the way out, it's like we just stand back, say "Yes, this is a great idea" -- and I'm not disputing that it's not -- but then we just stand back and say, you know, "There is tons of programming out there and let the chips fall where they may."

1858 I mean, we have a small market but -- I guess that's the point that I'm trying to make. The money is to be made in this market through U.S. programming. That is what all the broadcasters base their economic models on. We don't have a huge television market. We are located next to the largest one in the world.

1859 So what do we do as a regulator, not care about Fairchild or Telelatino or Odyssey or any of the other services that we have licensed? I don't know. Yes, there is a huge source of programming out there, but if they lose their viewers and they can't sell advertising and they can't make money, they are not going to have the money to buy that programming.

1860 So that is my first question.

1861 MR. KHARAS: Okay. Let me attempt to elaborate on my point, Madam.

1862 First of all, yes, of course, as a regulatory agency you have to care about all those people and all those institutions that have invested in those channels and that you have granted licences to.

1863 You took the decision to grant them the licence on this pay-per-view. Hopefully they are getting their revenue from pay-per-view. They have put themselves in the niche. They have argued for a licence and got a licence based on the niche. That niche is those people who are willing to pay "X" amount of dollars for programming in one language. It's a fairly narrow niche. You can't put that against WTM.

1864 That is my point. My point is that WTM is designed to bring the world to all Canadians. You can't put a niche of that magnitude versus the broad base of all Canadians in WTM. That is the first point.


1866 MR. KHARAS: Give me an opportunity to respond. That is my own opinion.

1867 The second point is that you said they only have 65,000 or whatever subscribers.

1868 Yes, I can tell you, as one of the world's largest producers of programming in various languages, certainly the largest Canadian producer of programming in various languages, they have a problem. They are in that 65,000 range if they are producing a channel that takes programming straight from various countries and, without subtitling or dubbing it, putting it out.

1869 Mr. Volpe spoke about how he is a naturalized citizen. I have no idea where he is from and his children are Canadian born. Now, Mr. Volpe and his generation of people who are fluent in that language from where they came might wish to have programming coming into their home only in that channel, but like I, who was born in India whose kids are born in Ottawa, know fully well my kids have no possibility of watching ATN. They do have a possibility of watching WTM's programming because it is going to be subtitled in English.

1870 So there is a vast difference. They are at 65,000 because they are catering to those people who have come directly from the country and who are fluent in the language.

1871 I'm not against them in any way. I'm just saying, they applied for a niche licence, you gave them a niche licence, you cannot now hold a broad base against that niche licence standard. You have to apply a broad base standard in your decision-making. And if you apply a broad base standard, there is no way you can justify shutting out the rest of the world.

1872 With the amount of American programming we have -- I battle against the Americans every day in my work all over the world. I will give you one example.

1873 I spent $1 million going through a regulatory process like this in front of something called the IBA in South Africa. I spent six weeks there trying to get a national television licence in South Africa. I was the only Canadian applicant. There were seven consortia of various groupings. I lost to Time Warner. They have a few more dollars than I do, and we lost to Time Warner. The Americans won again.

1874 When I went to Malaysia for the first time only three years ago -- maybe four and-a-half years ago there were three national channels in Malaysia, three terrestrial channels -- I'm coming back to this point as to why. Just give me a minute.

1875 There were three national channels in Malaysia. Today they have 42 channels. There is a 25-channel DTH system, there is a 10-channel MMDS system, there are seven terrestrial channels. Almost all of them are American. Almost all of them are American.

1876 You are right in saying that we sit next to the world's largest market. Here is a counterweight to the world's largest market. Here is a counterweight. Here is somebody who says "Let's bring in the rest of the world and let's, Canadians, watch the rest of the world." For heaven's sake, give us the opportunity to do that.

1877 If you are worried about Hollywood's influence, and nobody is more worried than I am, then the best way to do that is to get the rest of the world to come into Canadian households and maybe we won't watch that much American programming.

1878 COMMISSIONER WILSON: Okay. I would say that the worry that I was expressing was not so much Hollywood but the facts that these niche ethnic broadcasters which we have licensed and which are in the system and which are trying to make a go of it could be affected. That's what I'm trying to explore.

1879 Because you are right. You are right, WTM, the concept of the channel appeals to a much broader audience because of the subtitles, but the people who are currently subscribing to ASN and Odyssey and Telelatino and Fairchild could drop those subscriptions -- which are pay TV, not pay-per-view but pay TV subscriptions -- because they are getting maybe not as much programming as they would like from WTM, but they are getting it and, as the Chair pointed out, as the application says, it is third language programming because they are broadcasting in the original language.

1880 So that is more what I was trying to get at.

1881 MR. KHARAS: You know that my --

1882 COMMISSIONER WILSON: You think we should be more daring.

1883 MR. KHARAS: No, it's not that you should be more daring. You give licences to people who apply for narrow base, and now you can't then turn around to somebody who is applying for a broad base and say "Sorry, we are worried about these people with narrow base." That is what the argument boils down to.

1884 When you strip out what these guys were saying, they were saying -- I mean, you know, get to the bottom line. What they were saying was "I own Chinese programming in Canada from, you know, China" and whatever he said, "China, Taiwan, India" -- no, China, Taiwan -- whatever those countries were, five countries. Strip it out. That is what the guy said.

1885 COMMISSIONER WILSON: Here it is right here.

1886 MR. KHARAS: That's what the guy said: I have those five countries in Canada and you can't give anybody else a licence.

1887 COMMISSIONER WILSON: I appreciate your insight into that.

1888 The second question -- and this is it -- that I wanted to ask you about, because we heard from some of the intervenors that the future is digital. One of our responsibilities as the regulator is to try to help encourage the development of new technologies in order to make sure that the consumer has optimum choice from the system. Have you looked -- you say in your written intervention that --

1889 MR. KHARAS: I don't have a written intervention.

1890 COMMISSIONER WILSON: Well, there is a letter.

1891 MR. KHARAS: Oh, okay. I'm sorry.

1892 COMMISSIONER WILSON: That's what we consider an intervention.

1893 MR. KHARAS: Okay. I'm sorry.

1894 COMMISSIONER WILSON: You made a couple of points. You say:

"While Canada has nurtured its own domestic industry, it has not opened its airwaves adequately to non-US programming."

1895 Have you looked at the list of the applications for the digital services?

1896 MR. KHARAS: No.

1897 COMMISSIONER WILSON: Because there are like 490 of them.

1898 MR. KHARAS: Yes, I have heard that.

1899 COMMISSIONER WILSON: It would take you a bit of time to go through it.

1900 MR. KHARAS: Absolutely. And I hope that you can use those too as a conduit to U.S. programming. This is not an either/or situation as far as I am concerned.

1901 We haven't talked much about the Internet and I think that the Internet is a real threat as well.

1902 I have a company called Web Broadcast Corporation in Canada which, exactly as the name implies, I buy programming and put it on the Internet. It is a bigger threat, in my opinion, than anything else, because if you don't allow the rest of the world to come in and Canadians want it, ultimately when broadband comes to such a scale in the rest of the world, if they want to find it and you don't allow it on their television sets, they are going to watch it on the Internet.

1903 Because in fact there is a lot of programming already on the Internet, some from developing countries as well, that you can go and watch now. The technology isn't there to watch it well, but when the technology is there to watch it well --

1904 If you want to keep -- as the regulatory agency for the television system, if you want to keep Canadian eyeballs on the TV, you better have some kind of plan to counter what is going to come on the Internet later on from the rest of the world.

1905 COMMISSIONER WILSON: We have been talking about that.

1906 MR. KHARAS: Good.

1907 COMMISSIONER WILSON: I'm sure that people who created the CRTC in the first place have been talking about that too.

1908 Anyway, thank you for being here and for your perspective.

1909 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

1910 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: And for answering my question.

1911 MR. KHARAS: You're welcome.

1912 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Kharas.

1913 Mr. Secretary.

1914 MR. CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

1915 Our next intervention is by Salter Street Films Limited.


1916 MR. GALIPEAU: Good afternoon, Madame la Présidente, Commissioners, Mr. Secretary, Commission staff. My name is Claude Galipeau, I am Vice-President of Corporate Planning at Salter Street Films. Michael Donovan, our Chairman, could not appear today and he sends his regrets. He had to attend a board meeting in Halifax.

1917 I would like to thank you for this opportunity to appear as an intervenor in support of World Television Canada/le Réseau Télémonde for proposed specialty programming service to bring the best of world television to the Canadian broadcasting system.

1918 I would like to say a few words at the start about Salter Street Films. Founded in Halifax in 1983, Salter Street today is a publicly traded company that develops, produces and distributes around the world original film in television programming as well as internet products.

1919 Salter Street's television programs include the award-winning and top-rated comedy series "This Hour Has 22 Minutes", which is now entering its eighth season this fall on CBC; and "Made In Canada", which is entering its third season this fall on CBC.

1920 We are currently producing the second season of "The Awful Truth" with the American social satirist Michael Moore for Bravo! USA and Channel 4 in the U.K. We are producing that at the moment in New York City.

1921 We also produce the family drama "Emily of New Moon" and the science fiction series "Lexx", which was recently launched on the Sci-fi channel in the United States.

1922 Salter Street's library currently holds over 850 half hours of programming and that programming sells in over 100 countries.

1923 Given the popularity of our programming a home and abroad, we believe we have a good sense of what audiences want here in Canada and around the world.

1924 As producers of comedy programming in particular, we understand the importance of local tastes. Humour is perhaps the most local of entertainment tastes. As such, we understand the potential of World Télémonde. It is television that appeals to local cultural tastes, but in a distinctly Canadian way.

1925 We believe that the Canadian broadcasting system needs World Télémonde because such a service would increase diversity in the broadcasting system by giving all Canadians a window onto the world's best television and internet programming.

1926 It would give voice to our regions by exhibiting programming made by independent producers in all regions of Canada. It will reflect the multicultural and multiracial nature of Canadian society by programming non-Charter language content. It would strengthen the Canadian cultural mosaic by bridging the linguistic divide in foreign programming with the use of subtitled technology. It would strengthen Canadian cultural sovereignty by being an inclusive programming service unique in North America.

1927 Salter Street has entered into a strategic alliance with Télémonde on programming production in the Atlantic region and we would be available to make an investment in the enterprise should the need arise.

1928 Salter Street has developed a sound expertise in international co-productions. "Lexx" for example is an official treaty Canadian-German co-production.

1929 As we all know, the international co-production regime is an important strategic asset for Canadian producers. This is absolutely crucial. It allows us to finance programming outside of the U.S. system and therefore maintain creative control for alternative voices for voices outside the Hollywood system.

1930 World Télémonde would provide independent producers with a new outlet for their international co-productions. It would also forge new alliances between Canadian and foreign producers.

1931 Most importantly, it would allow non-Charter language group producers in Canada to speak to their ethnocultural brethren here and abroad.

1932 Salter Street looks forward to a positive decision by the Commission. We are ready to work with and invest in World Télémonde. We are already thinking of opportunities to produce for the network from showcasing emerging talent in the Atlantic regions and working with producers around the world to bringing to eager Canadian audiences new interactive television and internet programming.

1933 I thank you for your attention and I look forward to seeing you again in August when it looks like we will appear again.

1934 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

1935 Conseiller Demers, s'il vous plaît.

1936 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Just one question.

1937 With your strategic alliance with the applicant, can you be more precise as to what -- in the context of the programming described what will you bring to it?

1938 MR. GALIPEAU: The strategic alliance is a Memorandum of Understanding to co-produce with Télémonde or find co-production partners to bring programming which World Télémonde would exhibit.

1939 Some programming that we have talked about would be looking for comedy talent around the world assisting -- which is one of our core competencies. We are also interested in doing miniseries for World Télémonde. That is about the extent of our discussions.


1941 No further questions.

1942 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Galipeau and give our best to Mr. Donovan.

1943 Mr. Secretary, please.

1944 MR. CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

1945 I would now like to invite what I believe is our last appearing intervention this afternoon to Mr. Iannuzzi's application, and that is the intervention by T. Sher Singh.

1946 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good evening and thank you for your patience.


1947 MR. SINGH: Thank you for your patience.

1948 Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, I am pleased that I make everybody happy by coming here because it means I am the last one.

1949 I will try not to repeat what those who have gone before me have so ably put before you and will just give you some reactions to a few of the issues that have been raised through the day.

1950 I should state at the outset my background. I am a lawyer, though I do not appear today in my role as a lawyer. I am not paid to be here to make these submissions -- and this is not a complaint -- I come here purely as a consumer, as one who stands where the rubber hits the road.

1951 Apart from my day job as a lawyer, I am also a journalist. I write a regular column for the Star, do a weekly travel column for another newspaper. As well, I appear as a regular commentator on television and radio and host a couple of shows, one on CFMT and one on CTS.

1952 I also speak and lecture coast-to-coast on a number of issues, particularly on Canadian identity and Canadian nationhood.

1953 If I may avoid going into the philosophical aspect of the why and the how and just comment on some of the issues, as I said earlier, I am one of those Canadians who enjoys, who looks forward to finding out, to learning about issues that arise around the world. I am interested in what is happening in Italy, what is happening in China, as most Canadians are. I can't find what I need to know on those ethnic channels.

1954 To give you an idea, if I wanted to know more about what is happening in China today I could not turn on a Chinese program and get the answers to it because it's in Chinese.

1955 If I wanted to see a Chinese movie, if I wanted to see a Spanish movie, the way I do in the local theatre in Guelph where I come from, I cannot do so because I have no access to it. I can pick up a newspaper and find out what movies are on on the English channel or French channel at night, I have no access to finding out what Italian movies are on, what Chinese movies are on, what Spanish movies are on.

1956 Those programs, that type of programming is directly geared to those communities. It addresses, and addresses well, the needs of those communities. It does not address the needs of Canadians at-large, the so-called mainstream, that is interested in each other's communities, each other's issues, each other's art and culture. There is absolutely no access that somebody like me -- and I think I represent the average Canadian in that respect. I have no access to those things.

1957 That is important in judging whether or not there is any competition between the proposed application and existing channels for example. I can't see any overlap whatsoever.

1958 To give you another example -- and much of it has been addressed by the gentlemen, the television producer from around the world -- to take a simple example of Indian movies. Every Indian movie that the mainstream Canadian would want to see and has seen and should see is never shown on Indian channels. The example he gave for one was the Satyajit Ray movies. They have never been shown on any of the Indian channels whatsoever. They are -- it is not the type of programming that is available on ethnic channels.

1959 There are other examples, Sean Benegal and his movies are never shown in Indian programming. That doesn't mean, and I'm not suggesting, that Indian programming or Chinese programming or Spanish programming does not meet the needs -- or does not meet its respective mandate. It does.

1960 This is a different mandate that WTM is asking for. It is a mandate where you and I will be able to see Satyajit Ray movies, will be able to see Chinese movies, will be able to see Sean Benegal movies, movies or programming or issues or documentaries or whatever that are just not available to Canadian audiences.

1961 And that is important to keep in mind while addressing the issue of whether or not there is any competition or whether we are duplicating something or are we complementing existing material.

1962 If I can give two examples of situations and show you the kind of programming that has been available as opposed to what WTM would provide. The Elian Gonzales case is an ideal one because it's recent and clear in our memory.

1963 I happened to be in Havana when much of the events were happening. I happened to be in Miami for part of the time, and I have watched a lot of the programming because I have written about it, and I should tell you, and I don't think it should come as a surprise, that almost all of the coverage has been from the American perspective. Even where reporters have been reporting from Havana they have never been able to capture or convey the position of the Cubans on this.

1964 Canadians have absolutely no idea -- and I can say that because I was in Havana for a week during the crucial period and know what Havanaros think and react to the issue.

1965 Canada and Canadians were never canvased on the issue on Canadian television, other than a sporadic comment here and there. What do Cuban-Canadians think about it, other than a small story here or there at page 7, page 8? There has not been any proper balanced coverage.

1966 That is where WTM could have assisted in giving coverage that was broadcast in Cuba, would have canvased around the world as to, you know, what do the Chinese think? Considering the refugee issue is very current between North America and China, what do they think about the Elian Gonzales case and all the issues that arise?

1967 So that is one recent example that would show the discrepancy between what type of coverage exists.

1968 I turned to the Spanish channel. I could not get a word because it was all in Spanish. Sure, the Spanish programming exists and it is very thorough and does an excellent job, but the average Canadian has no access to it. We are talking about access to a balanced programming, access to the world, do we have it here in Canada or not.

1969 The issue of Hong Kong, for example. I was in Hong Kong when the first election took place two years ago and I came back two days later. Apart from a line here on national news, a line there, no coverage. And whatever coverage we had was from the perspective of Great Britain leaving behind a country with no democracy, or coverage by Chinese programming geared to meet the needs of the Chinese audience. Both of these are -- there is no access really to the type of coverage that the average Canadian needs and deserves if we are to be competitive in this world.

1970 So that is where WTM meets a need. There is a vacuum and it needs to fill it up and it does not step on any toes whatsoever.

1971 I believe that if WTM does its job properly that is the way every other channel will have to go to survive. This happens. There is always a leader that shows the way.

1972 You will notice in the last 10 years, all other channels, all other stations, all other programming has gradually been moving towards multicultural coverage. I mean, the type of coverage that you get on mainstream channels now was not available on multicultural channels 20 years ago, whatever programming existed then.

1973 If WTM is successful in doing what it is asking, what it is promising to do, then the other channels have no choice but to go that route. So it would be ridiculous, I would suggest, that we expect WTM to go the route of the existing channels or adjust their application or their mandate to existing channels. What they are suggesting, what they are proposing to do is to show the way. That is the future of television in this country and the world.

1974 One final comment I will address and then if you have any questions I will be glad to answer them.

1975 The suggestion that the presence of WTM will make it difficult to bid for movies, et cetera, et cetera, there is approximately 10,000 to 15,000 Indian movies available to be shown. If we talk about no more than 5 per cent from any country covered by WTM, we are talking about two, three, four, five Indian movies to be shown every year. If anybody wants to bid for movies, you have approximately 10,000 to 15,000 movies to bid for.

1976 The bidding that they are talking about is bidding for current movies, the ones that get released currently or have been released in the last few years and are a hit, et cetera, et cetera. Sure. But the hottest Indian movies are those that come from 30 to 40 years ago, and that is a fact of life.

1977 I can't see absolutely any problem in trying to get movies if you are showing 100 movies every year from India, it would not be difficult.

1978 Similarly with Italian movies, Chinese movies, Spanish movies, there are thousands available and any station will have difficulty in getting five movies or 10 movies and outbidding another party to the movies? That suggestion I think is not an honest one, to say the least.

1979 Those are all of my comments.

1980 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

1981 Commissioner Noël.

1982 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Thank you very much.

1983 I thank you for a very clear exposé and I don't think I will have more questions for you tonight.

1984 MR. SINGH: Wonderful. I can go home tonight.

1985 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

1986 MR. SINGH: Thank you for your patience.

1987 THE CHAIRPERSON: Again, thank you for sticking it out until the end of the day.

1988 I believe, Mr. Secretary, that ends this phase of the hearing?

1989 MR. CUSSONS: It does, Madam Chairperson.

1990 THE CHAIRPERSON: The next phase will be the applicant's reply. As stated in our letter of the 5th of May, 2000, we will expect WTM to reply as well to any additional material that has been filed in intervention as a result of the filing of additional material by the application. I believe there are three and you have copies of them since earlier today.

1991 Now, if you are ready to present your reply now, we are ready to hear you. If you want a 10 or 15 minute break we will grant you that as well.

1992 MR. KANE: Madam Chair, we have been working on the reply during the afternoon. If we could have about 10 minutes it would help a great deal just to nail it down.

1993 THE CHAIRPERSON: That's fine.

1994 We will see you back here, then, in 10 minutes.

1995 Thank you.

--- Upon recessing at 1832 / Suspension à 1832

--- Upon resuming at 1843 / Reprise à 1843

1996 THE CHAIRPERSON: Order, please.

1997 MR. CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

1998 I would now like to invite the World Television Network team to respond to all interventions, please.


1999 MS DRESHER: Thank you very much, Mr. Secretary.

2000 Good afternoon, Madam Chair, Members of the Commission and Commission staff. We are here to reply to the written and oral interventions to our applications.

2001 However, before we reply to the interventions we would like to respond to matters raised this morning by the Commission.

2002 First of all, in response to counsel's question with regard to the new program categories, we have reviewed the comparison of the categories that World Télémonde would broadcast and we agree with the statements set out in your document.

2003 In addition, we would like to propose the inclusion of Categories 12, 13 and 14 in the Condition of Licence on the nature of our service.

2004 For absolute clarity we would like to read into the record our commitments and proposals for Conditions of Licence for the service.

2005 With regard to the nature of the service we would propose the following conditions:

2006 1) No more than 5 per cent of the non-Canadian programming broadcast in any broadcast month would come from any one country;

2007 2) No more than 5 per cent of the non-Canadian programming broadcast in any one broadcast month would be in any one language other than English and French.

2008 No more than 50 per cent would be in prime time.

2009 "Broadcast month" has the same meaning as in the television regulations.

2010 Now, with regard to Canadian programming, exhibition and expenditures, our commitments are as follows:

2011 As stated this morning, we guarantee that Canadian content for the broadcast day, that is 6:00 a.m. to midnight, will average 60 per cent over the licence term with no less than 40 per cent in any one year of operations.

2012 Canadian content in the evening broadcast hours, that is 6:00 p.m. to midnight, will be 50 per cent in each year of operations.

2013 Expenditures on Canadian programs will be $9,684,000 in the second year of operations and 39 per cent of the previous years' revenues from years three to seven.

2014 We would request that the Commission extend us the same flexibility in over or underspending in any one year as it customarily does in its licensing decisions.

2015 We will now reply to the interventions.

2016 The interventions present an interesting contrast essentially between those who get it and those who don't. Over 3,500 supporting interventions from all regions of the country and from all types of people, including independent producers, elected representatives, multicultural and other associations, university programs, think tanks and, perhaps most importantly, regular citizens. Even the SPTV, despite its opposition to the carriage stages we are seeking, recognize the important contribution that our service will make to the system.

2017 MR. IANNUZZI: Madam Chair, we will deal with the points raised by the intervenors point-by-point rather than intervenor-by-intervenor.

2018 World Télémonde will not -- I say not duplicate any individual service or group of services, rather it will add a new and diverse program offering.

2019 To the representatives of the ethnic services, I would like to assure them, as I have assured Mr. Mascia, the President -- or former President of Telelatino and still a member of that board -- that our intent is not to provide an ethnic programming service, but rather that our audience is the new mainstream of Canada made up of all Canadians.

2020 While it is true that when we broadcast a program from Italy it will have the appeal to some viewers who could be a Telelatino viewer, however, as Mr. Demers pointed out this afternoon, the 40 per cent of our programming that will come from non-Canadian sources will come from a wide variety of sources.

2021 Moreover, we have committed that we will carry no more than 5 per cent of non-Canadian programming from any one country and no more than 5 per cent in any one third language.

2022 While we have third language programming, we are not a third language service but rather a world service with programming in a wide variety of languages and from a wide number of countries including English and French-speaking countries like Belgium, New Zealand, Jamaica or Zimbabwe.

2023 We are significantly different from Telelatino. You don't have to speak Italian to enjoy our Italian language programs. We will be an innovative mainstream service providing the best of the worlds programming to Canadian audiences through the use of state-of-the-art subtitling.

2024 The second aspect of our programming is also distinct from any of the third language services. We will provide a new Canadian perspective on world and domestic events and issues. In fact, we will devote a much higher percentage of our broadcast time and of our revenues to Canadian programming than any of the ethnic-specific services existing presently.

2025 The nature of the service clearly justifies the kind of penetration that carriage on basic provides. Our service will make a substantial contribution to the objectives of the Broadcasting Act and will add diversity to the broadcasting system. It will add diversity to the broadcasting system by making international programs available to the mainstream audience. It will also bring a new perspective to international and Canadian issues and events.

2026 It will make a significant contribution to independent programming sector, as Salter Street and les Productions La Fête outlined here this afternoon.

2027 It will satisfy a high demand for this service from all regions, from Anglophones, Francophones and allophones. It will be affordable, adding only $3.60 per year to a subscribers bill, a small price to pay given the high levels of interest consistently demonstrated over more than 20 years of survey.

2028 The cable industry has objected to the carriage on basic because of capacity problems, but has no problem adding cable-affiliated services such as WTN and CMT, Treehouse and SportNet to basic.

2029 In addition, most cable systems distribute exempt services. While these services clearly have merit, and there is no doubt, none has the widespread interest and support that we have demonstrated here today.

2030 If cable operators wish to add six new digital for each channel, why don't they move some of their own service to the digital world.

2031 World Télémonde is a channel whose time has come. The time has come to add the missing piece, the last spike to the Canadian broadcasting system, the one service that brings together, once again, Anglophones, Francophones and allophones, Canadians of origins to view the best of the world's programming and share a new perspective on Canada.

2032 We are in a global environment and World Télémonde will bring the 94 per cent of international television programming to Canadians that they don't currently see on Canadian television.

2033 There is a clear and consistent evidence of demand for World Télémonde. Studies since 1986 have consistently shown a strong demand for the service based on an understanding that there is a void in the system. The research clearly predicts that the service will be welcome by a very significant number of Canadians.

2034 MS DRESHER: Madam Chair and Members of the Commission, we believe that we have clearly demonstrated today that World Télémonde deserves to be granted a licence with the dual status carriage that will allow most Canadians to have access to it.

2035 So, to recap, the service will fill a major hole in our broadcasting system by making the best international programming available to all Canadians through the use of state-of-the-art subtitling.

2036 World Télémonde will also provide a new Canadian perspective on both international and Canadian issues and events.

2037 World Télémonde will make a substantial contribution to the independent program production community and talent in that community.

2038 There is consistent and significant demand for the World Télémonde service.

2039 World Télémonde has the financial resources, a realistic business plan and an experienced team to create the two channels that will meet our goals, our commitments and the objectives of the Canadian Broadcasting Act.

2040 So, at the end of a long day, we would like to thank you in thousands of languages and in spirit for your patience and your attention and we would be pleased to answer any questions you may have at this time.

2041 THE CHAIRPERSON: Counsel.

2042 MR. BATSTONE: I just have one question going back to the content categories.

2043 I take it, then, that under Category 4, which is "Religion", before you had only proposed 4(c), which is "Religion, Other", taking out the cornerstone and mosaic part of it.

2044 Are you now suggesting that you would want to program under content Category 4 "Religion" just generally?

2045 MR. IANNUZZI: We don't have it in our schedule now, but the fact of one particular category such as religion behooves me to not take care of him while I'm here so I thought we would leave it in there.

2046 THE CHAIRPERSON: Probably wise.

2047 MS DRESHER: Or her.

2048 MR. IANNUZZI: I think it's wise.

2049 MR. BATSTONE: I guess the only other one is, you have added 12, which is "Interstitials" and there is an existing category filler which you had indicated in the original application. Would you still want do filler programming?

2050 MR. IANNUZZI: I know, but I never liked that word "filler". This sounds much more -- a little classier.

2051 MR. BATSTONE: Well, there is a difference between "filler" and "interstitial".

2052 MR. IANNUZZI: No, I understand that. I understand that. I'm just saying interstitial is probably what we expect to do, yes.

2053 MR. BATSTONE: Okay, that's great.

2054 Thank you.

2055 MS DRESHER: By the way, the "him" and "her" argument is the best argument we may have for dual status.

2056 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Langford has a question.

2057 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I apologize for this question. As no one else has it I assume I just heard incorrectly, but on the off chance that I didn't I'm going to ask this again.

2058 Ms Dresher, when you reviewed your commitments, which you did wonderfully in point form, did I hear you say that you would average 60 per cent Canadian content? Because I thought your commitment was to 50 per cent ramping from 40 to 60. I just don't want to burden you or have you burden yourself.

2059 MS DRESHER: I'm sorry. What did you hear me say?

2060 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I heard you commit to an average -- I thought I heard you commit to an average over the licence period of 60 per cent, but my understanding of your position is that the average would be 50, not 60.

2061 I'm not trying to cause mayhem --

2062 MS DRESHER: Do you want me to re-read the commitment?

2063 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Well, if you agree with it, yes, I do.

2064 MS DRESHER: Okay.

2065 As stated this morning, we guarantee that Canadian content for the broadcast day, that is 6:00 a.m. to midnight, will average 60 per cent over the licence term with no less than 40 per cent in any one year of operations.

2066 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: That is what you want to commit to, 60 per cent? We are always happy to have more, I just want to be absolutely sure.

2067 Thank you. I'm sorry for the delay.

2068 THE CHAIRPERSON: That, Mr. Secretary, ends the hearing of this item on our agenda.

2069 We thank everybody, the intervenors and the applicants alike, for having stayed with us until seven o'clock. We are just trying to show how sophisticated Ottawans are. We work late and have late dinners.

2070 Thank you very much.

2071 MR. IANNUZZI: Thank you, Madam.

2072 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: We may take the rest of that tube of Rolaids.

2073 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1857, to resume

on Wednesday, May 10, 2000 at 0830 / L'audience

est ajournée à 1857, pour reprendre le mercredi

10 mai 2000 à 0830

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