ARCHIVED -  Transcript - Moncton, NB - 2000/03/06

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

FOR THE CANADIAN RADIO-TELEVISION AND

TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION

TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DU

CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION

ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES

SUBJECT / SUJET:

BROADCASTING APPLICATIONS AND LICENCES/

DEMANDES ET LICENCES EN RADIODIFFUSION

HELD AT: TENUE À:

Hôtel Beauséjour Hôtel Beauséjour

Ballroom A Salle de bal A

750 Main Street 750, rue Main

Moncton, N.B. Moncton (N.-B.)

March 6, 2000 le 6 mars 2000

Volume 1

Transcripts

In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages

Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be

bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members

and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of

Contents.

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded

verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in

either of the official languages, depending on the language

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.

Transcription

Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues

officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront

bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des

membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience

publique ainsi que la table des matières.

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu

textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée

et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues

officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le

participant à l'audience publique.

Canadian Radio-television and

Telecommunications Commission

Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des

télécommunications canadiennes

Transcript / Transcription

Public Hearing / Audience publique

Broadcasting Applications and Licences/

Demandes et licences en radiodiffusion

BEFORE / DEVANT:

Joan Pennefather Chairperson / Présidente

Andrew Cardozo Commissioner / Conseiller

Andrée Noël Commissioner / Conseillère

ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:

Peter McCallum Commission Legal Counsel /

Conseiller juridique

Lynne Poirier Hearing Manager /

Gestionnaire de l'audience

Lynda MacDonald Hearing Secretary /

Secrétaire de l'audience

HELD AT: TENUE À:

Hôtel Beauséjour Hôtel Beauséjour

Ballroom A Salle de bal A

750 Main Street 750, rue Main

Moncton, N.B. Moncton (N.-B.)

March 6, 2000 le 6 mars 2000

Volume 1

TABLE OF CONTENTS / TABLE DES MATIÈRES

PAGE

Phase I

Presentation by / Présentation par:

Telemedia Radio Atlantic Inc. /

Télémédia Radio Atlantique Inc. 9

Maritime Broadcasting System Limited 62

Denis Losier 120

Houssen Broadcasting Ltd. 191

Moncton, N.B. / Moncton (N.-B.)

--- Upon commencing on Monday, March 6, 2000

at 0900 / L'audience reprend le lundi

6 mars 2000 à 0900

1 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Bonjour, Mesdames et Messieurs, et bienvenue à cette audience publique du CRTC sur l'étude de demandes concurrentes pour exploiter une station de radio FM dans le marché de Moncton et deux entreprises de radio FM comparantes pour desservir Saint John et St. Stephen.

2 Mon nom est Joan Pennefather et je présiderai cette audience.

3 Permettez-moi de vous présenter mes collègues qui font partie du panel: à ma gauche, la conseillère Andrée Noël et à ma droite, le conseiller Andrew Cardozo.

4 Je vous présente également le personnel du Conseil qui nous secondera lors de cette audience: le conseiller juridique, Peter McCallum; la gestionnaire de l'audience, Lynne Poirier; la secrétaire de l'audience, Lynda MacDonald.

5 Nous avons aussi avec nous John Traversy et André Campeau et la gestionnaire de la salle d'examen, Sheila Gidney. N'hésitez pas à les consulter en cas de besoin.

6 Pour donner suite à ses appels de demandes, le Conseil entendra cette semaine sept demandes concurrentes pour Moncton et des demandes pour Saint John et St. Stephen. Dans le cas du marché de Moncton, les demandes soumises se concurrencent à divers points de vue. Plusieurs s'excluent mutuellement du point de vue technique.

7 Les requérantes devront nous démontrer clairement qu'il existe un besoin, de même qu'un marché, pour l'utilisation qu'elles se proposent de faire des fréquences en question, conformément aux politiques du Conseil sur la radio.

8 Le Conseil portera une attention particulière aux aspects suivants: comment le service proposé contribuera-t-il à l'atteinte des objectifs de la Loi sur la radiodiffusion et comment offrira-t-il une programmation qui répond aux besoins et intérêts.

9 We will now pause.

--- Technical difficulties / problèmes techniques

10 I see my mike is on but nothing else. Thank you very much, whoever returned the light to the scene. I will continue.

11 Nous évaluerons enfin la solidité de son plan d'affaires, y compris les études de marché et de revenus publicitaires anticipés, et si les fonds nécessaires pour mener à bien le projet énoncé dans le plan d'affaires sont réellement disponibles.

12 Nous siégerons à compter de maintenant jusqu'à mercredi, de 09h00 à 17h00 environ, et nous espérons terminer cette audience jeudi, vers midi.

13 La transcription de cette audience sera versée au dossier public. Afin que le personnel responsable de cette tâche fasse un enregistrement fidèle de l'audience, je vous demanderais d'utiliser les microphones devant vous et d'éteindre vos téléphones cellulaires.

14 Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to this CRTC public hearing to consider competing applications for FM radio stations in Moncton and two appearing applications for FM radio stations in Saint John and St. Stephen.

15 As I noted earlier, my name is Joan Pennefather, and I am presiding at this hearing.

16 Joining me are my colleagues and fellow Commissioners: on my right, Andrew Cardozo, and on my left, Andrée Noël.

17 The CRTC staff members assisting us at this hearing are: our legal counsel, Peter McCallum; hearing Manager, Lynne Poirier; hearing Secretary, Lynda MacDonald; as well as John Traversy and André Campeau; and, in the examination room, Sheila Gidney. Please don't hesitate to contact them on any procedural issue.

18 Following calls for applications, the CRTC is hearing this week seven competing applications for Moncton and applications for Saint John and St. Stephen. The applications filed for Moncton are competitive on various grounds. Several are mutually exclusive on technical grounds.

19 The applicants should clearly demonstrate to us the need for, as well as a market for, the proposed use of the frequencies concerned in accordance with the Commission's radio policies.

20 The Commission is particularly interested in the following issues: the contribution that the service will make towards achieving the objectives of the Broadcasting Act, as well as to the provision of service meaningful to the community concerned; the service's proposed listening audience; how the applicant intends to promote the development of Canadian talent; the soundness of the applicant's business plan, including market analysis and potential advertising revenue; and the availability of financial resources to meet the requirements set out in the financial projections of the applicant's business plan.

21 Ladies and gentlemen, we will sit Monday to Wednesday, from 09:00 to approximately 05:00 p.m., and we expect to complete this hearing around noon, on Thursday.

22 The proceedings will be transcribed and filed on the public record. To ensure that the people responsible for recording the transcripts are able to provide an accurate record, I would ask that you speak -- that when you speak, you activate the microphone in front of you.

23 I would also ask you to turn off your cell phones, pagers and any other electronic devices, as they are very distracting to both applicants and the Panel.

24 I will now ask the Secretary, Lynda MacDonald, to provide any further detail with regard to procedures and to invite the first applicant.

25 MS MacDONALD: Thank you, Madam Chair.

26 This hearing will take place in two parts. During the first part, the Commission will hear seven competing applicants for FM radio stations in Moncton.

27 The procedure for the competing applications are as follows: We will start by inviting applicants to come forward and present their proposal. We allow each applicant 20 minutes for this exercise, including any audiovisual material. Questions by the CRTC Panel normally will follow.

28 After all applicants have presented their proposals, then we will hear the applicants' interventions to each others' proposal. Ten minutes maximum are allowed for each applicant.

29 Next, we will invite other parties who have specifically requested to appear to present their intervention on any or all of the competing applications. They are allowed 10 minutes.

30 In a final phase, each applicant may respond to all comments and interventions filed or presented with respect to his or her application. Again, they will have 10 minutes to make their remarks.

31 During the second part of the hearing, we will hear the non-competing applications for FM radio stations in Saint John and St. Stephen. These applications will be heard together, at the same time, and the applicant will have 30 minutes to present both proposals.

32 We will also hear interventions to these applications, as well as rebuttals.

33 I should also mention there are several applications scheduled for this hearing where appearance was deemed to be unnecessary and decisions will also be rendered on them in due course.

34 For your information, the public files associated with the items at this hearing are available for viewing in the temporary exam room situated in the Petitcodiac Room, which is located down the hall to our left. CRTC staff Sheila Gidney will be pleased to assist you, but please be aware that while an application is being heard, the public file associated with it will be in this room and not available for viewing.

35 There is a verbatim transcript of this hearing being taken by the court reporter from StenoTran. If you have any questions about how to obtain all or part of this transcript, please approach the court reporter for information.

36 Simultaneous translation services are available. To obtain the necessary equipment, we have been asked that you provide a form of identification, be it a driver's licence, major credit card, or other, which will be returned to you at the end of the hearing, when you return the device.

37 Finally, if you wish to have any messages taken, we will be pleased to post them in the Petitcodiac Room. The phone number for the public exam room is 851-3689, again, 851-3689, and the number is also available in the pages of your agenda.

38 If you have any questions, further questions, please do not hesitate to contact anyone of us. We will be pleased to assist you whenever we can.

39 The schedule for the hearing is proposed to be as follows: Monday, we propose to deal with the applications of Telemedia Radio Atlantic Inc., Maritime Broadcasting System Limited, and the application by Denis Losier.

40 On Tuesday, we propose to start with the application by Radio Beauséjour first thing in the morning, to be followed by the applications of Atlantic Stereo Ltd., the application by James Houssen, International Harvesters. And finally, to end the day, we will deal with the interventions by applicant.

41 Wednesday morning, we will start with the interventions from the public and those who have specifically filed interventions with the Commission. In the afternoon, we will deal with the rebuttals by the applicants.

42 If all goes according to plan, Thursday, we'll start with the non-competing applicants by New Brunswick Broadcasting Co. for the Saint John and St. Stephen markets.

43 Now, I would like to introduce the first application, by Telemedia Radio Atlantic Inc., for a broadcast licence to carry on an English-language FM radio programming undertaking at Moncton. The new station would operate on frequency 94.5 megahertz, with a transmitter power of 13,100 watts.

44 The applicant is proposing a dance-oriented music format. The Commission notes that this application is technically mutually exclusive with another application, which is also scheduled at this hearing, for the use of the 94.5 megahertz frequency.

45 Appearing for the applicant are Mr. Claude Beaudoin, Mr. John Eddy, Mr. Jim MacLeod and Mr. Jim Hamm.

46 When you are ready, please proceed.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

47 MR. BEAUDOIN: Madam Chairperson, Madam and Mr. Commissioners. My name is Claude Beaudoin and I'm the President and Chief Executive Officer of Telemedia Radio Inc. and Telemedia Radio Atlantic Inc.

48 Before we begin, I would like to introduce our panel. On my right is John Eddy, Executive Vice-President of Telemedia Radio Atlantic Inc. John is responsible for our operations in Atlantic Canada.

49 John is a native of Bathurst. His family has extensive business holdings in New Brunswick, including the Moncton area. The Eddy family has a proud history of broadcasting, tracing its beginnings to the early 1950s in Bathurst. John has been involved in radio broadcasting in New Brunswick since 1988.

50 On my far left is Jim Hamm, Operations Manager in Telemedia's northern Ontario stations. His recent involvement with our Atlantic operations has been most helpful, as Jim is a native of the Moncton area. He was born and spent much of his life in Sackville. Jim is a career broadcaster and a career Telemedia associate.

51 On my left is Jim MacLeod, Senior Vice-President of Telemedia Radio Inc. Jim brings a long history of involvement in broadcasting in Atlantic Canada to his position. He is a former president of Newcap Broadcasting and also worked with CHUM in Halifax. Jim began his career a few kilometres from here, in Amherst. Jim also currently Chairman of the Radio Board of the Canadian Association of Broadcasters.

52 This application is a further significant step in Telemedia's quest to be a leader and a strong and contributing participant in the Canadian radio broadcasting system.

53 We believe that the maintenance of a significant number of strong radio players is critical to the long-term success of the Canadian radio broadcast system. Telemedia is a unique Canadian success story in that we have significant operations in both English and French Canada, both large and small markets, with a wide range of formats. Telemedia is committed to building a unique, strong, high quality Canadian radio company. I would like to underline that in this year 2000, that is what Telemedia does  radio. We are singularly committed to radio as that is our exclusive area of operation.

54 Our appearance today is an important step in that process of building a unique, strong, high-quality Canadian radio company. Approval of our application for a new Moncton station is of fundamental importance to our development in Atlantic Canada.

55 You will hear why we have chosen Moncton for our first expansion since acquiring Radio One and Radio Atlantic. We believe that we have a high-quality application that will bring a strong, new voice to this market, will increase programming diversity significantly, will give new Canadian performers in the CHR genre their first chance at exposure and overall strengthen the broadcasting system in this region.

56 Telemedia's operating philosophy of thinking nationally and acting locally brings the strengths and resources of a large company and the advantages of strong local direction to our stations.

57 Based on previous CRTC decisions and policy regarding English and French markets, there are two separate markets to be considered in this hearing. One involves the francophone market, for which there is one commercial application, and the other involves the anglophone market. There are three applications for the anglophone market, which is well defined as Atlantic Canada's second largest radio market and well able to handle a new licence. And this is the market we wish to address today.

58 Now, John Eddy will outline our proposal.

59 John?

60 MR. EDDY: Thank you.

61 Over the next several minutes, we will outline a proposal that, if approved, will bring an exciting new radio station to Moncton, the first new station in well over a decade; a station that will serve a segment of the market not now served by Moncton radio; a station that will bring a new and independent news voice to Moncton; a station that will provide new opportunities for Canadian musical artists; and a station that will be profitable, assuring the community that we have the capacity to keep our commitments.

62 Telemedia's new Moncton station will be an exciting, fast-paced station oriented towards the younger listeners in the market. It will play music from the CHR genre. Our station will be unlike any other station now in Moncton.

63 First, a quick snapshot of the three commercial radio stations in Moncton:

64 CKCW AM operates in the country format and attracts an audience that is generally over 35.

65 CFQM FM, Magic 104, is an adult contemporary station with an audience that tends to be over 25. Maritime Broadcasting System owns both of these stations.

66 CJMO FM, owned by Newcap Broadcasting, is an adult rock station that attracts more listening from males than females, with an audience that tends to be over 35.

67 There is tuning to CJMO and CFQM by the younger audience, but listening by younger demographics is at a much lower level than by older listeners.

68 For example, in the fall 1999 BBM:

69 Teens spent an average of 6.6 hours a week tuned to CJMO FM. In contrast, the average listener spent 14.3 hours with the station.

70 Teens listened to CFQM FM an average of 7.1 hours a week. The average listener spent 11.8 hours a week with CFQM FM.

71 For comparison, we examined tuning patterns to CISS FM, a Toronto-based CHR station. The average listener listens 7.9 hours a week, but teens listen 10.3 hours a week.

72 In other words, both CJMO FM and CFQM FM are targeted to adult audiences and achieve excellent audience levels with adult listeners.

73 Teens do much less listening to Moncton stations than older listeners. In contrast, a station aimed at a younger audience, like CISS FM Toronto, has disproportionately heavy listening by teens.

74 We commissioned Contemporary Research Centre to see if there was an opportunity to provide a new radio station that would serve this segment of the market not well served by existing stations. A detailed summary of the research is on file, so we will only cover the highlights.

75 This research shows strong demand among those 12 to 24 for a new station devoted to their tastes. Eighty-three per cent of those 12 to 24 felt a new station should be for them. In contrast, only 50 per cent of those over 25 believe their age group should be the focus of a new station.

76 Clearly, older Moncton listeners are much more satisfied than youth with the format choices available in Moncton.

77 Our research also turned up broad demand for more current music among Moncton radio listeners. Almost half of the respondents would like a new station in Moncton to play current music. As the respondents get younger, the demand for current music rises. Three of four listeners aged 12 to 24 prefer -- favour current music over classic rock.

78 It is interesting and comforting to us that research done by Peter Doering Consultants and filed as part of the Newcap application also concludes that a current-based radio station will do well. The research at page 192 of that application indicates that 70 per cent of respondents 18 to 54 are very likely or somewhat likely to listen to a new Top 40 current music-based station. Top 40 is by far the strongest choice among the formats.

79 Our view of the Moncton market is that existing stations generally satisfy older listeners, but younger listeners are asking for a current-based station directed at them.

80 We have listened to those younger listeners. The proposal before you today is targeted directly at them. Our programming, news, production, marketing, community involvement and Canadian Talent Development will be focused on the younger audience. The core of that audience will be 12 to 24.

81 Telemedia is the only applicant for an English-language licence before you that is a new voice in the market. Our newsroom will be a new, independent news voice in the market. It will focus on news of interest to young listeners. We will provide live local news and sports coverage. Our Moncton station's affiliation with our other Atlantic operations will facilitate distinct regional news coverage. Our presence in Moncton will represent a significant increase in diversity of news voices.

82 Our programming, all originating in Moncton, will include artists that are popular across many formats -- Céline Dion, Shania Twain, Backstreet Boys -- and will play many artists that are not now regularly played by Moncton stations -- D-Cru, Choclair, Carlos Morgan. Canadian artists that record for the younger market will now have exposure in Moncton -- Rascalz, SoulDecision, See Spot Run. Our era balance will be tilted very heavily towards current music.

83 We will therefore be a distinct programming choice. In Moncton, there is a country station, an adult contemporary station and an adult rock-oriented station. We will execute a format that will be distinctly different from any of the existing stations. In short, no listener will mistake Telemedia's station of today for one of the other Moncton stations.

84 Our new station will have several features directed to the interests of youth. These include an on-air Job Line, Club Nite, Cyber Bits and a weekly show dedicated to emerging artists on the east coast music scene.

85 Our Canadian Talent Development Program, with $250,000 in direct expenditures over five years, is designed to provide support from the school stage through to local and regional exposure and airplay as young artists develop, and beyond. We will briefly outline this program.

86 Our Canadian Talent Development Program starts with our schools. The New Brunswick Government has reorganized educational funding. Local school boards are gone, replaced by school advisory committees. The end result is less emphasis on so-called specialty programs and an increasing challenge to maintain school band programs. There is a tremendous need for support at the most basic level.

87 Telemedia has targeted area school band programs with a contribution of $5,000 per year over a five-year period. School advisory committees from Districts 2 and 4 will administer these funds with input from an advisory committee of teachers that will consider proposals for the use of these funds to ensure that the most beneficial programs are supported. The total value of this initiative is $25,000 over five years.

88 Next, the Telemedia Canadian Talent Development Program concentrates on Canadian music talent that is ready for exposure and commercial success. Local artists performing in the CHR genre will be able to enter the Telemedia Moncton Top 40 Talent Search. Our Search will be heavily promoted on air for a two-month period. A judging panel consisting of a professional recording artist, a record company rep and our Moncton Program Director will judge entrants.

89 Two winners will emerge each year, each being awarded $10,000 to fund professional recording and CD production. The two winners will each have their CD played on air, will receive advice on how to have it racked in local outlets and will have public appearances in the following 12 months promoted on air. And if they have succeeded in achieving at least regional distribution, they will receive support and promotion on other Telemedia Atlantic stations that have appropriate formats. We see this as an excellent springboard for developing local artists. Total cash value of this initiative will be $100,000 over five years.

90 The third component of the Telemedia Canadian Talent Development Program involves significant support to FACTOR. Telemedia Radio Inc. is a strong supporter of FACTOR. The Commission is well aware of FACTOR's success, so we will not go into any further detail. We hope this support for FACTOR will be a logical next step from the Telemedia Moncton Top 40 Talent Search.

91 Total value of our FACTOR support will be $125,000 over five years, and these funds will be directed to CHR artists in Atlantic Canada only.

92 This is a grand total of $250,000 over the first five years of operation and represents tangible evidence of Telemedia's strong support to the development of future Canadian talent.

93 Telemedia believes that a strong community presence will be the foundation of our success in Moncton. For example, we have close ties with Partners for Youth, a program funded and founded by Senator Jim Ross, a former owner of Radio One and Radio Atlantic. Telemedia Atlantic has representation on the Advisory Board of Partners for Youth. We work for Partners for Youth in Fredericton by coordinating their fund raising activities and providing on-air support. This program is broadly supported by both national and regional companies, service clubs, schools and charities. The Honourable Marilyn Trenholme Counsell, Lieutenant Governor of New Brunswick, is the honorary patron.

94 This program focuses exclusively on working with youth at risk. In Moncton, we intend to become the champion for this program. It is a logical extension of our youth-oriented focus. This will be the introduction of Partners for Youth to Moncton. This program is so successful that Senator Ross is being awarded the Order of Canada for his work with it.

95 Telemedia regards Moncton as the most successful radio market in Atlantic Canada. Statistics Canada's economic indicators are all positive and the strongest in the region. All applicants here agree that there should be expansion of choice for Moncton listeners.

96 Three of the applications involve either Newcap Broadcasting or Maritime Broadcasting System. Our proposal will be cash flow positive after year one, and by the end of year five, we forecast financial operations that will be fully in line with other Telemedia stations. We mention this only as assurance that our Moncton station will be fully capable of keeping its commitments in providing a strong new service to Moncton.

97 Telemedia's Moncton operation will provide at least 15 new positions in Canada's broadcasting industry. This station will be operated independently of our other Telemedia Radio Atlantic stations but will have the full benefit of our infrastructure and expertise. All programming will originate locally. Telemedia will provide state-of-the-art equipment. This will be a facility our staff will be proud of.

98 MR. BEAUDOIN: In conclusion, Telemedia is new to the Atlantic Canadian broadcasting community. We intend to expand and create Atlantic Canada's third major radio broadcasting company. This application is one step towards that goal, but a key step given the strategic location of Moncton in the economic and cultural life of Atlantic Canada. We believe the entire broadcasting system will benefit from the presence of another strong participant.

99 To summarize the top 10 reasons why Telemedia should be your choice:

100 First, Telemedia is proposing a fresh, distinctive radio station of today.

101 Second, no other Moncton station targets the younger audience.

102 Third, Telemedia's station will target and support the youth market, and all aspects of its programming, news, and Canadian Talent Development will be directed to that under-served part of the Moncton audience.

103 Fourth, Telemedia will add a new, distinct news voice to Moncton.

104 Fifth, Telemedia will be a new presence in community support in areas not now served.

105 Sixth, the Telemedia Canadian Talent Development Plan offers key financial support from the beginnings of a potential new career in music through that all-important initial CD and then on to broader support through FACTOR, a total of $250,000 investment.

106 Seventh, at least 15 new positions will expand employment in Atlantic Canada's broadcast industry.

107 Eighth, Telemedia has the financial and other resources to ensure that this station is successful and fulfils its commitments to the Commission and the community.

108 Ninth, Telemedia is a new player and will strengthen the broadcasting system by introducing competition in the market and the region.

109 Finally, all applicants, including both applicants now operating in the market, agree that Moncton can support a new radio service.

110 Telemedia has the format the market is asking for. We now need your approval and respectfully ask for it. Thank you.

111 We are prepared to answer any questions you may have.

112 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, and good morning, gentlemen.

113 I would like to ask you a number of questions regarding your application, and they will be in the following areas, just to give you an overview of where we will go:

114 The demand for the proposed service in this market, a point you spent quite a bit of time on in your opening remarks; the market impact of the proposed station; some questions on programming -- the local programming; and a question on Canadian talent development. I have technical questions, a clarification regarding the employment equity aspect of your proposal, and finally, I will ask you to comment as a somewhat of a wrap-up on your view as to what the most important criteria are which the Commission should consider in awarding a new FM licence in this market.

115 That gives you a sense generally of the questions this morning.

116 On page 2 of your supplementary brief and obviously in this morning's presentation, you refer to the study done by Contemporary Research Centre and you list its key findings.

117 If we look at the study, and your remarks this morning, my understanding is that the basic premise is that younger audiences are under served and that limited musical selection is the cause. I think the study says younger audiences are under served. Limited musical selection is the cause, on page 4 of the study.

118 Your study, on page 3, however says:

119 Would this not indicate that in fact, the younger listeners you refer to are being served in this market, since your own study says that the same demographic are in fact tuning in more to radio today than in the last two or three years?

120 MR. BEAUDOIN: Not necessarily because I think the key point here is that although the study indicates that the younger listeners said yes, we tend to listen more, what we found quite interesting is when you compare the time spent listening to radio from the younger market versus what could be called sort of a kind of a national average, you will notice that in Moncton, it is extremely low.

121 Let's keep it simple. You look at the total tuning in Moncton today for the teens. It's about 65,000 hours tuned. That represents roughly 6 hours a week. And actually, if you look specifically to the two FM that are sort of most tuned in by the younger market, it is essentially what you will have, around 6 to 6.5 hours a week.

122 However, when we look at all the Canadian markets, you will find that the teen tuning per week is closer to 10 and even 11 hours a week. So for us, it sort of confirms that the teen tuning to radio -- also the research might have indicated that maybe it's grown, in our view it's still significantly below what one could call the Canadian average.

123 Therefore, back to page 4, it was not surprising to us to see that result, that 83 per cent of people aged between 12 and 24 believe that a new radio station in Moncton ought to be specifically for them.

124 So of course the -- so that's how we read the results.

125 THE CHAIRPERSON: The demographic you're referring to, then, 12 to 24, I want to make sure I understand the points that you're raising here. What are they currently listening to?

126 MR. BEAUDOIN: Today, you have three radio stations, English radio stations, available in Moncton. One, CKCW AM, is extremely unique with its country format, reaching really the 35 with a strong skew against the 35 plus market. Then, you have an adult contemporary station, which tends to skew 15 to 54. And then, you have the adult rock oriented station, which will skew 30 plus. Those are the three formats available in this market.

127 Of course, we have to realize that the 12 to 24 are currently listening to these two FM stations in particular. But their tuning to these two stations is significantly lower that one could expect tuning to radio.

128 And again, when we look at the average tuning to CFQM or CJMO from these 12 to 24, you get an average time spent listening to these two radio stations that is around 6 to 6.5 hours a week, while one should expect that a station targeted against that specific demo should bring that tuning up to 10 to 11.

129 So to answer your question, currently the 12 to 24, by default, listen to these two FM, but there is a strong indication that the tuning to these two FM from this target demo, the youth market, is significantly lower that one could expect from a station targeted to that group.

130 THE CHAIRPERSON: Our analysis of Fall 99 BBM indicate, yes, indeed, 12 to 17 are about equal between CJMO FM and CFQM FM. But in fact, that 18 to 24 skews -- the age group 18 to 24 skews more to listenership for CFQM than CJMO. Our analysis is in fact that it's CFQM FM that's drawing from that sector, the demographic group, as opposed to CJMO.

131 Do you agree?

132 MR. BEAUDOIN: Yes, we do agree. That's exactly what we read from the BBM. It's interesting also to note that our own research indicated that out of the two, CFQM is being perceived as a broader format and therefore will tend to attract the broader audience. So this is definitely confirmed.

133 But again, if we look specifically at this 18 to 24, we believe that this group remains under served in terms of music selection with a service or a radio music programming that would be specifically targeted against their needs.

134 THE CHAIRPERSON: I'd like to come back to the point in terms of impact on advertising revenues in the next series of questions, but just to stay for a minute on this business of -- that you mentioned of the format and the specific reason that you think that your study is right, that currently this younger demographic, 12 to 24, is not served, and they're not served by the fact that there is not current music available. I think in your brief, you even referred to a void of current music.

135 I think it's important, if you would explain to us a little more about the difference between we see an audience for adult contemporary, for classic rock, and yet you say that the 12 to 24 demographic are interested in more current music.

136 You yourself indicate that the same artists in fact are played, as you are proposing, in the adult contemporary and the classic rock, I think particularly focusing on what is called rock.

137 What is it that would cause you to say that your proposed station would be dedicated to younger listeners if this kind of music is in fact available in the market?

138 MR. BEAUDOIN: Madam Chairperson, I would like to ask Jim Hamm to answer this question.

139 Jim?

140 MR. HAMM: Madam Chairperson, there is in the music industry today and the radio industry today what we could almost refer to as a shared pool of music among radio stations. And I might point as an example to the recent success of the Grammy Award-winning song by Santana called Smooth. It's a song that charted on alternative radio stations, rock stations, active rock stations, AC stations, hot AC stations and CHR radio stations. In fact, probably the only mainstream format that did not play that song was country and possibly jazz, if there were such a format.

141 THE CHAIRPERSON: So you can understand my question for saying then if it's available everywhere, why would you need a new --

142 MR. HAMM: There is. Well, my point is that there is a pool of music that is being shared by a number of different formats right now, and this is a function of the music industry as much as it is of the radio industry.

143 But each of the formats that we're talking about today also has a pool which they can call unique to their own particular radio station and own particular format.

144 We project that the proposal that is before the Commission today, the music makeup of this radio station, probably in the vicinity of 40 per cent of the music that we play, will be shared with other radio stations. That kind of music sharing already takes place in this market today, between the radio stations that are here.

145 There are country artists today that are being heard on adult contemporary and hot AC and CHR radio stations. There are traditionally rock artists that are now appearing on AC and hot AC. There's a lot of crossover going on. We will share some of that music as well.

146 But there is an element to CHR music, contemporary hit radio that does not exist in this market today, and that is the other 60 per cent, 50 to 60 per cent of the music that we will play in this market that does not exist.

147 And I would refer back to Mr. Beaudoin's comments and your questions regarding the usage of the two radio stations that exist in this market today. There is no one radio station that serves specifically the interests of this 12 to 24 demographic, which is why they have to use multiple radio stations in order to find what they're looking for.

148 And having said that, we maintain that there is still a fairly significant percentage of music that is not being played in the market, and the main reason for that is that the two existing radio stations, two existing FM radio stations in this market, we believe, and BBM would support, target an adult radio audience. Their decision-making process on what music to play and what music not to play is based on that adult demographic.

149 Our decision-making process, based on what we play and what we do not play, will be based on our target demographic of 12 to 24, and that will bring an element of music to this market that does not exist today.

150 THE CHAIRPERSON: So to which stations are your target 12 to 24 listeners currently tuning?

151 MR. HAMM: They will tune both.

152 THE CHAIRPERSON: To both?

153 MR. HAMM: They will tune both, yes.

154 THE CHAIRPERSON: And of the two, what is -- just again, so we're absolutely clear, how -- what will in fact distinguish your selection from CFQM and CJMO? You mentioned 60 per cent CHR is different, but can you give me some examples of how it's different? Why is this specifically dedicated to this group, since they can already find this music elsewhere?

155 MR. HAMM: But they can't find all of this music. Again, the line is drawn as to how far any radio station will go with a certain genre or a certain style of music because that decision is weighed against their target demographic.

156 So when we say 60 per cent of the music that we will bring to this market with this radio station is being different, it is music that is not currently being played by this market. Six out of every 10 songs that we play are songs that are not currently heard. And yet, this is music, this is a style of music that is reflective of the likes and dislikes of the 12 to 24 demographic. It is a style of music that is reflective of the entertainment values and lifestyle values and cultural values of this demographic, not necessarily reflective of somebody who is in an older demographic.

157 There is a world of difference between the likes and dislikes in music of somebody who is 35 and somebody who is 17.

158 THE CHAIRPERSON: There is a mix sometimes.

159 MR. HAMM: There is, and that's the 30 to 40 per cent that we referred to, absolutely. And that's why all of the sharing occurs within radio stations today. But we still maintain that there is a uniqueness to the 50 to 60 per cent of the music that will be unique to this radio station.

160 The era balance is another area which comes into play. If teen listeners today are not fully satisfied with the radio stations that they hear in this market, part of that may be because the music era that is covered by these stations is anywhere from 1965 to today. If you took a typical target listener of ours for this radio station, much of this music, when it came out, they were not even alive. So it's very difficult for them to relate to this music. The era balance for the radio station that we propose will probably be no older than three years, which gives it its very current base.

161 THE CHAIRPERSON: I would like to come back to some of your points when we address programming. You've also raised some interesting comments this morning on the differentiation as you see it.

162 But I'd like to continue now on the theme of the impact of your proposed station in this market and go back to in fact we do agree that both CJMO and CFQM FM, perhaps other stations in the market are in fact reaching this audience currently.

163 Your letter dated September 7, 1999, on page 2 -- I don't know if you have a copy of that letter -- addresses the impact on revenues, and you say in that letter:

164 And later, in a letter of October 21, you again outlined this impact you will have on the revenues of existing stations with a total amount of $600,000.

165 Would you be able to provide estimates of the percentages of the audience of the proposed station that would be comprised of first, persons who presently tune out of market stations; and secondly, persons who will increase their listening when you go to air?

166 I would like to just refine a little bit more clearly the source of the audiences you propose and impact you propose.

167 MR. BEAUDOIN: So, Madam Chairperson, let's talk first what is our projecting share for this new station.

168 Based on our research, we are projecting that we would get, and as indicated in the file at the CRTC, a 14.5, 15 per cent share. Of course, that's against total tuning. If I convert that into local tuning, that really means 17 to 18 per cent. And with the increased tuning from the teens we will get, five years from now, 20. So we are tabling and forecasting five years from now, and this will start from 12 to 13, up to 20.

169 So to your question, who's going to be affected if we do anticipate that we are going to capture 20 per cent of the market share, the share of tuning 12 to 54, five years down the road, who's going to be affected? Here's how we see it.

170 Number one, CKCW AM will not be affected at all. That station has very little tuning against the 12 to 24, actually. And even those that are tuning will most likely remain. This is a very unique format. You have the country fans, a loyal audience against that country format. So number one is that CKCW AM shall not be affected by a CHR type of new station.

171 So therefore --

172 THE CHAIRPERSON: Monsieur Beaudoin, just a moment.

173 MR. BEAUDOIN: Yes?

174 THE CHAIRPERSON: You said this, so I'm clear, you've just said the CFQM will not be affected?

175 MR. BEAUDOIN: No, CKCW AM, I'm sorry.

176 THE CHAIRPERSON: CKCW, thank you.

177 MR. BEAUDOIN: Yes, the AM country format.

178 So therefore, this 20 per cent will really be affecting CFQM and CJMO. All agree with this. How? Well, here's the assumption that we went through, and based on our research.

179 Essentially, against the 12 to 24 age group, our station should capture, it could be as high as a strong 60 to 70 per cent tuning because this station will be entirely targeted against the 12 to 24.

180 And against the 25 to 34, which is sort of the secondary target market, we should normally capture 20 to 30 per cent. If you apply --

181 And the third point is we strongly believe that the tuning from the 12 to 17 or the 12 to 24 will raise to the Canadian average, i.e. about 10 hours a week.

182 So from 60,000 hours tuned a week, this will grow to about 110.

183 If we take these three assumptions, growing the teen total hours tuned to the Canadian average, capturing between 60 and 70 per cent of the 12 to 24 hours tuned, and 20 to 30 per cent, 25 to 34, and zero on 35 plus, assuming that the station will not impact the 35 plus, translating that on the 12 to 54, this is exactly how you get your 20 per cent five years from now.

184 And if you ask me how do you read the rating shared performance on the two other FM stations? Well, the CFQM currently owns 35. So this five years from now would be at 25. So 25 plus, CKCW would remain at 20. So that means that Maritime Broadcasting would continue to hold 45 per cent of the hours tuned and still dominate the market; and CJMO, from 45, would be at 35. So both stations would decline by about 10 points on their share of hours tuned, and that 10 points comes essentially from the tuning of the 12 to 24 and 20 per cent of the 25 to 34.

185 I hope I answered your question.

186 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

187 My question would also add in that analysis, what are you able to estimate the percentage that is coming from persons who tune to out-of-town stations? And secondly, persons who would increase their tuning when you go to air? Apart from the audience you're drawing from the existing stations, will you draw any audience from persons tuning to out of town, and will you draw any audience from persons who increase their tuning when you go to air?

188 MR. BEAUDOIN: Jim MacLeod, do you want to comment on that?

189 MR. MacLEOD: The share of tuning in Moncton to local stations is about 85 per cent, is at a very high level. So there's insignificant out-of-market tuning that we would be able to access.

190 This growth, as Mr. Beaudoin has just outlined, there's about 20 per cent of it is coming from new listening within the market and the balance of it from the redistribution that he outlined.

191 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

192 If we stay in this area for a moment -- and I believe you touched on this matter in your opening remarks -- the Commission has the option of licencing more than one proposal in this proceeding. If the Commission were to approve your application and also award one or more English-language licences, what would be the impact on your business plan, particularly on projected revenues and audience share?

193 MR. BEAUDOIN: I guess, Madam Chair, it would depend which other station you would be granting.

194 If I think, for example, that if the French application from Mr. Losier and MBS was granted a licence, we strongly believe this would still allow us to go. And this is a very important assumption in our reading of this hearing and the market. For us, the CRTC has in front of -- on the table really two market applications.

195 THE CHAIRPERSON: So you think there are two separate markets --

196 MR. BEAUDOIN: Yes, and --

197 THE CHAIRPERSON:  -- in this sector?

198 MR. BEAUDOIN: Yes, Madam Chair, because -- and I think in the CRTC's previous decisions, in English Montreal and French Montreal or English Ottawa and French Ottawa, the CRTC has always looked at it very separately.

199 And this is how we looked at it. We cannot comment today on the French Moncton. We didn't look at it. We didn't study it. What we focused on is this, today's $6.2 - $6.4 million English-radio station market with these three formats being available to the English market.

200 And we submit to you that there is room for a fourth station in this strong economic market and growing.

201 THE CHAIRPERSON: But in your assumptions, did you assume that the Commission would licence only one proposal, as in possibly yours? Or, as I asked, if in preparing your projections, did you consider that there may in fact be one or more English licences awarded during this proceeding?

202 MR. BEAUDOIN: On the English market side, our assumption is that you would be granting one licence, on the English market.

203 THE CHAIRPERSON: If the Commission went forward and licenced two in the English-language market, what would be the impact on your projections?

204 MR. BEAUDOIN: Of course, yes -- it depends of course who would be granted. Some of the applicants are non-commercial stations. Of course, that would not impact. But again, our financial projections assume that the CRTC would be granting one station. So we did not look at the impact of adding two stations.

205 Jim, you want to add a comment?

206 MR. MacLEOD: Well, only -- both of the other commercial applications are in the country format. They would really be competing with themselves more than they would be competing with our station. I mean, clearly there would be a revenue impact on the market of introducing another player.

207 But in terms of the audience projections, I don't believe that either one of those applications would impact our audience directly. It would significantly change the competitive balance, though, in the market.

208 THE CHAIRPERSON: Then again, you mentioned the separate French and English market. Approving your application with a French-language proposal, would there be less impact on your business than if we licenced yours and another English-language station?

209 What if the result was one English-language and one French-language station in this market? What would be the impact on your projections?

210 MR. BEAUDOIN: But again, it depends which station would be granted. If, for example, the CKCW AM flip, for example, was granted, this would not really impact because we would still be working with a four-station market on the English side.

211 So if the CRTC chooses to grant Telemedia and flip AM to FM from CKCW, I think we can assume that the projection that we've been through wouldn't change significantly.

212 However, if the CRTC chose to grant two licences, but one of the second licence implies adding two stations instead of one, this would impact our financial projection.

213 On the French side again, I reiterate that for us, that would not have any impact.

214 THE CHAIRPERSON: So you don't think there will be any impact if we have one English licence granted and one French licence granted? There would be, if you were that English licence, in the wisdom of time, there would be no impact on your proposal, if there was a French licence also granted from this proceeding?

215 MR. BEAUDOIN: Yes. So just to make sure that I heard it right, a French licence, definitely no impact. And if there was another English licence, it really depends which one.

216 THE CHAIRPERSON: So you're comfortable that there would be room in this market for one English and one French-language licence?

217 MR. BEAUDOIN: I agree.

218 THE CHAIRPERSON: And you are comfortable that there would be room for two English-language licences, depending on the nature of the format?

219 MR. BEAUDOIN: What I said, Madam Chairperson, if the second FM that was granted was the flip from CKCW AM to an FM, this would not be -- would not represent the addition of a fifth station. So therefore, we believe that our financial projection would remain as is.

220 THE CHAIRPERSON: With the impact on advertising and the impact on audience share, as you have outlined it during this hearing?

221 MR. BEAUDOIN: Yes, Madam Chairperson --

222 THE CHAIRPERSON: No difference?

223 MR. BEAUDOIN:  -- because the country programming is extremely unique and is so away and apart from what we are proposing to the CRTC and to the community with a CHR type of format that the way we've been making our financial projection and rating the hours tuned, the fact that CKCW AM would be flipped to FM would not change our projection.

224 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I'd like to move to programming questions.

225 I go back to the point that you say on page 3 of your supplementary brief that:

226 I'd like to know more about your programming plans which were very briefly sketched out in your supplementary brief. You've added some comment and description of that programming this morning, and I'd like to explore that a little more with you.

227 We've talked to some extent about the music component, but let's talk about the quality, what you refer to as the quality of local news and sports coverage targeted to the youth market. And I think this morning, you also referred to:

which I believe also mentions a distinction in terms of presentation of news to the youth market.

228 How will this be achieved? What does this mean? What will make a difference in terms of news and sports programming for the youth market?

229 MR. BEAUDOIN: I would like to ask John Eddy to answer you on that.

230 MR. EDDY: Thank you.

231 I think it would be fair to say, Madam Commissioner, at the outset that we would acknowledge that to a large extent, news is news.

232 The issue for us really is the orientation of news where choice exists. So, for example, if there was a decision to be made as between the latest news on a series of mergers and acquisitions, or news related to career opportunities or things that would affect university students, we would choose to run stories that are more directly relatable to our listeners.

233 Beyond that, the news coverage that we propose will be approximately 10 casts per day, running on the half hour approximately through the morning, and thereafter periodically throughout the day. And we will also be running news weekend mornings, and we are proposing in addition to cover sports of local interest to the community, and particularly the sports that is now university and high school related.

234 We have proposed staffing complementary to the level of news and sports that we propose to implement.

235 THE CHAIRPERSON: What -- could you expand a little more on --

236 You say news is news. All right, we can accept that for the moment, but on information programs, what would be particularly relevant to the local community and the information programs that you have proposed? How will your -- in other words, how will your spoken word programming really be relevant to this community and to the target audience that you propose?

237 Could you give me some concrete examples?

238 MR. EDDY: Well, thank you, yes.

239 That would move us a little in the direction of feature programming and a little away from news, narrow news itself.

240 On the feature side of the equation, we would be proposing to air programming that is specifically targeted to the audience and includes programs such as Cyber Bits, Job Line, Club Nite, and what do you do in the dark?

--- Laughter / Rires

--- Technical difficulties / Problèmes techniques

241 THE CHAIRPERSON: We are having problems with this. I wouldn't want anybody to say the CRTC is working in the dark, so we'll have to wait, if you wouldn't mind, there. If this continues, I think we'll have to make sure it doesn't interrupt further our proceedings, because it is very disturbing for you, I'm sure.

242 If you would continue -- in fact, yes, if you would continue on the descriptions of Cyber Bits, Club Nite, Job Line, Talk Back. I was very interested in that, those programs, as to for example, who will host them, who will produce them, and when will they be scheduled? And that will give us, I think, the snapshot in response to my question.

243 MR. EDDY: Thank you. There is one that I left out, that the lighting situation cut us off from, and that was the proposed East Coast Music Show. So if I could start with that one and work my way backwards.

244 What we would be proposing to do is air a weekly show that is music and lifestyle oriented, consistent with the format that we're going to put on the air, that highlights, showcases emerging talent. We already run a similar program in Fredericton, and so our proposal would be to expand on that and implement it in Moncton.

245 With respect to the other three that I mentioned, Club Nite would really be a weekly feature that would run from an hour to two hours and would be live from a downtown disco and highly interactive. So this is an opportunity for us to showcase the most current music available that is not now being played in this market -- that's the 60 per cent that Mr. Hamm was referring to -- on an interactive basis with representation of our target audience.

246 Job Line is a 30- to 60-second feature. It's really about help wanted, part-time, full-time, that sort of thing. We consider it to be timely, given the age group that we're focused on and targeting. And it may also include things like helpful hints with respect to job opportunities, job search, training, et cetera, that kind of thing.

247 Cyber Bits is, as the name implies, a daily 60-second feature that would be really all the latest about high tech. Our view is that the target market for this radio station is intensely interested and affected by that area of activity, and so we propose to run programming, in a feature way, to address that.

248 THE CHAIRPERSON: So I get a sense of what Job Line, Talk Back, Club Nite and Cyber Bits will be.

249 On Talk Back, you said interactive. Is this open line programming? Is it your intention to do open line programming?

250 MR. EDDY: No. What I meant -- with respect to Club Nite are you referring?

251 THE CHAIRPERSON: Talk Back. I assumed, but you also in your discussion just now referred to interactive programming. So my general question is are you planning open line programming? That wasn't clear from the brief --

252 MR. EDDY: No.

253 THE CHAIRPERSON:  -- from this morning.

254 MR. EDDY: Well, typically what we do is we've made throughout our system a rather heavy investment in technology and among other things, what the technology enables us to do is engage in what would be, if you went straight air, live, Talk Back programming, but it would be edited and narrowed for broadcast.

255 THE CHAIRPERSON: Is -- are you talking about open line programming, which is --

256 MR. EDDY: No.

257 THE CHAIRPERSON:  -- pursuant and subject to Public Notice 1988-12 --

258 MR. EDDY: No.

259 THE CHAIRPERSON:  -- wherein we look at guidelines and so on?

260 MR. EDDY: No.

261 THE CHAIRPERSON: No?

262 MR. EDDY: No.

263 THE CHAIRPERSON: Just then, a final comment on the spoken word programming, if you would. Could you just come back to tell us again how this spoken word programming inclusive of the shows, or short segments that you just described, will in fact be of direct and particular relevance to this community?

264 MR. EDDY: Well, all of it is relevant to the community in that it all -- first of all, it's intended to speak to elements of the community that are not now spoken to at all, significantly, by existing radio broadcasters.

265 So what we are proposing to do with all of this programming is target and speak to the youth in a unique way, in a way that is relevant to them and in a way that we expect will be in their language and on their terms. That is what this program is intended to do.

266 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

267 I think it's important, as you understand, I'm linking this to our previous discussion on the revenues and the audience share and the draw you think you will have on the other stations in the market in terms of attracting an audience who are essentially listening or taking the music they like to listen to from other stations, and I'm trying to understand what in fact distinguishes your proposed station.

268 Canadian Talent Development. First, a point of clarification and then one other question. Over the course of the letters we have on file and repeated again this morning is your commitment to $250,000 over five years. That's quite clear.

269 In an earlier letter, September 7, you mentioned that your Canadian Talent Development contribution, which at that time was different, and it's very clear what it is now, but you did mention that it was in addition to the CAB plan of $3,000 a year.

270 It was not clear to us whether that CAB commitment was included in the $250,000 or in addition to it.

271 Could you just clarify that for me?

272 MR. BEAUDOIN: No, it is additional to the CAB.

273 THE CHAIRPERSON: It's additional.

274 MR. BEAUDOIN: Yes.

275 THE CHAIRPERSON: So we're looking at $265,000.

276 Now, in case of the various elements of the $250,000, and indeed the CAB plan, it is all itemized over five years. The Commission may grant a licence for a term not to exceed seven years.

277 Should the Commission approve your proposal and grant you a licence for a seven-year term, what would be your proposed Canadian Talent Development initiatives, direct and indirect, for the additional two years?

278 MR. BEAUDOIN: Madam Chairperson, the -- we would propose that the CTD plan should be looked at on an annual basis. So whatever is the duration of the licence, that it would be granted to us, then we would be committed to that annual amount for the whole duration of the licence.

279 THE CHAIRPERSON: And you would agree to a conditional licence to that effect?

280 MR. BEAUDOIN: Yes.

281 THE CHAIRPERSON: I mentioned in my introduction that I would ask you a question regarding employment equity, and it is this. Is Telemedia subject to the Employment Equity Act?

282 MR. MacLEOD: We are subject to the -- we are in excess of a hundred employees, so we are subject to Human Resources Canada Employment Equity.

283 THE CHAIRPERSON: All right, we just wanted to clarify that, that in fact then would be imported to this application.

284 MR. MacLEOD: Yes.

285 THE CHAIRPERSON: Some technical questions.

286 As you know, another applicant is proposing to use the frequency 94.5 megahertz, channel 233, in Moncton. Are you aware of any other available, comparable frequencies that could be used to meet your coverage objectives for Moncton? And if you could elaborate.

287 MR. BEAUDOIN: Madam Chairperson, again, our technical brief and technical analysis has been focused to identify the frequency of 94.5. We did not pursue any other further technical analysis on any other frequency, so this would need to be revisited by engineering.

288 Again, back to my earlier comment, it all depends which other licence is currently being granted.

289 THE CHAIRPERSON: So if for any reason the frequency 94.5 megahertz was not available, would you be willing to revise your technical parameters to use an alternate, lower-class FM frequency, or an AM frequency for your proposed station?

290 MR. BEAUDOIN: Yes, we would have to revise it.

291 THE CHAIRPERSON: My final question, which I would like you to expand on, and perhaps as well offer you an opportunity to answer the questions I didn't ask and to summarize.

292 As you know, there is another applicant who wishes to obtain an FM licence at 94.5. What, in your opinion, are the most important criteria which the Commission should consider in analysing your application? And how does your application meet those criteria?

293 MR. BEAUDOIN: At Telemedia, we are -- you know, we are quite excited about this opportunity that we have today because we believe that there is a real need and an opportunity to offer a new radio station to this market.

294 I think the -- we think that the number one criteria should be diversity. Which applicant, who's bringing to this market diversity? And we believe that on that front, our proposal adds definitely something new to this market. New in terms of format, a clear direction against the youth market, new in terms of news voice, bringing a third party, a third different news voice.

295 Telemedia made this acquisition a few months ago of Radio One and Radio Atlantic and it's a terrific group of radio stations. And Moncton is being so key in the whole area that bringing Moncton to what John and his people are already offering in terms of radio services will definitely provide to the Moncton community a third, strong local voice.

296 So for us, number one is diversity, and on that front, we strongly believe that Telemedia's proposal definitely adds diversity to this market.

297 Number two, I think I would say that the financial strength of each group -- and I think the CRTC can judge on that, and I think you have a lot of good applicants in front of you -- but the financial outcome or the financial business model that has been tabled should be also taken into consideration.

298 And, of course, the third element is the plan that is tabled in front of you for the Canadian Talent Development. I think this is part of our broadcasting system. Telemedia does recognize that the CRTC is looking for applicants that will be working towards reinforcing the broadcasting system through commitments to the Canadian Talent Development.

299 And we are extremely proud of the plan that has been tabled in front of you and strongly believe that this plan is a strong advantage for the system.

300 So in summary, we would say definitely and by far, diversity, financial strength and commitment to the Canadian Talent Development.

301 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Beaudoin.

302 Commissioner Cardozo.

303 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you, Madam Chair.

304 I just have one question, Mr. Beaudoin. This is just in continuation to your discussion with Commissioner Pennefather on the issue of English and French markets.

305 I just wanted to clarify. I accept your point that in terms of audience share, we're talking about two different markets because there was obviously some crossover, but probably not a great deal. So from the point of view of listeners, to a large extent you're talking about different listeners.

306 But from the point of view of advertisers, you've got an advertising pie that's a certain size. Is another station not just another station, which means that the pie has to then be cut up into smaller pieces?

307 MR. BEAUDOIN: Mr. Commissioner, if that was the case, then it would raise a question in the last 10 to 15 years for the Montreal English and French markets, for the Ottawa English and French markets.

308 The CRTC, in its wisdom, has established that we should also always, always differentiate English licensees and French licensees. So that would be my number one comment.

309 However, yes, should we, in a smaller market, be preoccupied by that? Again, we at Telemedia did not really study the impact on the French market. But we believe that there is a French community here, in Moncton, that is strong and vibrant and if the CRTC in its wisdom, choose that for the benefit of the French community we should have an additional French licensee, we maintain that this should be seen as a separate licensee and I think that the market shall be considered strong enough to support these two communities.

310 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I deeply appreciate your recognition of the CRTC's wisdom. That's always encouraging.

311 But is it your view that there is -- that we can at this point be licencing one more English and one French station as well?

312 MR. BEAUDOIN: Our point of view is that there is no doubt that there is room for an additional English licence in Moncton.

313 On the French, our position is that this is a separate market. We did not study that market, but we can appreciate that the CRTC might consider this French application. For us, this would not impact our business plan for English Moncton.

314 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. Thank you very much.

315 Thank you, Madam Chair.

316 THE CHAIRPERSON: Counsel?

317 MR. McCALLUM: Thank you.

318 I just wanted to clarify a couple of quick points.

319 At page 13 of your presentation today, I think you added some words to what was actually in the printed text because I think what you said was that the FACTOR contribution would go to CHR artists in Atlantic Canada only. Is that correct?

320 MR. BEAUDOIN: Yes, it is correct. This has been added, and I'm pleased that you raise that point. We would like to insist that this be added to our brief.

321 In our very recent discussion with FACTOR, we've agreed with them that our investment could be directed to this -- more specifically of the Maritimes area.

322 MR. McCALLUM: I see. So you have discussed it with them and they have agreed to that?

323 MR. BEAUDOIN: We did.

324 MR. McCALLUM: Thank you.

325 Just a quick question or two on the programming.

326 Would you be covering any special community events in your programming?

327 MR. BEAUDOIN: John?

328 MR. EDDY: We haven't made any specific provision for particular events that we would cover, but we have a history in all of our markets in Atlantic Canada of covering local sports events and events of public interest, where warranted. Absolutely.

329 MR. McCALLUM: For example, would you be buying a cruiser to go to such events?

330 MR. EDDY: Oh, yes. We would have a station vehicle.

331 MR. McCALLUM: And would you be having any public announcement segments?

332 MR. EDDY: Yes, public service announcements are an integral part of the programming of all of our stations.

333 MR. McCALLUM: Thank you.

334 Thank you, Madam Chair.

335 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Counsel.

336 Thank you, gentlemen. We'll see you again in the next phase.

337 We will now take a 15-minute break. I have 10:20, which means we will reconvene at 10:35. Thank you. Clarification. We will reconvene at 10:40. My clock is a little slow. 10:40.

--- Recess at 1022 / Suspension à 1022

--- Upon resuming at 1041 / Reprise à 1041

338 MS MacDONALD: The second proposal is an application by Maritime Broadcasting System Limited, for a broadcasting licence to carry on an English-language FM radio station at Moncton. The new station would operate on frequency 94.5 megahertz, channel 233B, with an effective radiated power of 19,000 watts, upon surrender of the licence issued to CKCW.

339 The applicant proposes to maintain the country format already provided by CKCW.

340 The Commission notes that this application is technically mutually exclusive with another application, which is also scheduled at this hearing, for the use of the 94.5 megahertz frequency.

341 Appearing for the applicant are Mr. Merv Russell, Mr. Garry Barker, Mr. Darren Nantes, Mr. Jim MacMullin, Ms Nancy Hilchie, Mr. Brian Sawyer and Ms Denise Murray.

342 Please proceed when you are ready.

343 Thank you.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

344 MR. RUSSELL: Thank you, Madam Secretary.

345 Madam Chair and members of the Commission, I believe it's incumbent upon me to welcome you to New Brunswick and welcome you in particular to Moncton. Moncton is a fabulous city. It has a great culture of its own. It has a magnificent historical heritage that played a major role in the development of Canada. The food and hospitality is outstanding and I highly recommend the seafood chowder in the Auberge. It's superb.

346 We're pleased to present our application to convert CKCW AM to the FM band. But before we begin, would you please allow me the opportunity of introducing those who are with me.

347 I have on my far left Ms Nancy Hilchie. Nancy is Maritime Broadcasting's Employment Equity Co-ordinator and has been a member of our broadcast family for some 16 years.

348 Beside Nancy and to my immediate left is Jim MacMullin. Jim has been with our company for 25 years. He started as a copywriter many years ago. He is the Vice-President and General Manager of CKCW and CFQM here, in Moncton, and is responsible for the day-to-day operations of CKCW, which we are discussing today.

349 Here on my immediate right is Mr. Garry Barker. Garry is our Executive Vice-President of Maritime Broadcasting System. Garry is also the Vice-President of Programming for our group and is responsible for all on-air product and any research associated with our stations. Garry has been with the Maritime Broadcasting family for some 15 years.

350 Back here, to your left, is Darren Nantes. Darren is new basically to our family. He's been with us about two years. He's our Chief Financial Officer and will be responsible for the computer-generated slides which we hope to introduce as part of our presentation today.

351 And Brian Sawyer, over here, has been our Consulting Engineer for a number of years, and we're happy to have his expertise here.

352 We also had indicated to the Commission that Canadian country music artist and songwriter Denise Murray, from Moncton, was going to join us. Denise was our 1995 Startrack winner and she had indicated that she could be with us. She wanted to be here today and express her support for our plan. However, she received a last-minute booking in the Ontario area, in the Orillia-Midland area, and today, she is doing video work for her upcoming CD.

353 I was most hopeful that Denise could be here. She is one of the great indications of how CTDI is working. She had her family and as a mom, she allowed them to mature and then she said I am going to launch my career. She was our Startrack winner in 1995 and has gone on to tremendous new heights in country music in Canada. She extends her sincere regrets for not being here.

354 THE CHAIRPERSON: Please extend ours to her. But although we regret not seeing her, we are pleased that she is singing and well somewhere in Canada.

355 MR. RUSSELL: We are too. Thank you very much.

356 Reminiscing a bit on the drive, often when I get driving, I start -- my mind starts to wander, as it does with some people. On my drive here from Halifax to Moncton, I got thinking about the significance of CKCW and what flared up foremost in my mind was that CKCW radio a long, long time ago, too many years for me to want to remember, was basically the inspiration of me getting into the radio business.

357 My family brought me up in a small town called Port Elgin about 25, 30 miles from here, and at the age of nine or 10, I remember coming to a children's program with about 100 yelling and screaming kids at the old CKCW on Bonaccord Street. You had to get proofs of purchase to go into an auction, and I don't know what I won, but I sure remember the announcers' names. I think that's really what sparked my interest in radio way back then.

358 Which brings me to the fact that CKCW in Moncton has a rich history of serving this city, Westmorland and Albert counties. This station was one of the first to go on the air in Canada, commencing back in service in 1934. R.B. Bennett was the prime minister at the time. Actually, he was born in Albert County, next door.

359 We're proud to play a role as a custodian of this tremendous heritage of 66 years and have worked hard to build CKCW's longstanding commitment to the local communities.

360 We believe this application is critical to ensuring CKCW's proud history that it continues with a bright future as the source for hot country music, local news and information in southeastern New Brunswick.

361 MR. MacMULLIN: Maritime Broadcasting seeks to move CKCW from its present home on the AM band to a new place on the FM dial, thereby growing and preserving the service. Today, the AM signal of CKCW deteriorates profoundly upon sunset, eliminating coverage of the communities surrounding Moncton and affecting the quality of reception in many parts of the city.

362 In the winter months, the shorter days mean that CKCW's signal is impaired during key drive time periods, with poor reception before 08:00 a.m. and again after 05:00 or 05:30 p.m.

363 As the Commission can appreciate, consistency is crucial to any business but is particularly important in our radio industry. Listeners want to be able to tune their car stereos and clock radios to their favourite station, knowing it will always be available.

364 At our current frequency, 1220, CKCW cannot meet this expectation for many of our listeners. Our inability to serve parts of the community means a reduction in audience, which inevitably translates into lower revenues. We see the real life evidence of these difficulties every day, through listener concerns and the loss of advertising due to our poor signal coverage.

365 In addition, the AM frequency itself poses real challenges to music-based formats. Separate and apart from unreliability and interference issues, our AM signal quality makes consistent delivery of high-quality sound impossible. Our hot country format calls for this, and many listeners expect it. As a result, the demographic most sought by advertisers, the younger age group, do not tune to AM music stations.

366 This difficulty is compounded by the fact that CKCW is the only music-based station in Moncton on the AM band. As a result, listeners do not accept the AM frequency as the place for music. In Moncton, nearly 80 per cent of all commercial tuning is to FM stations, which excludes CKCW AM 1220. We firmly believe the long-term viability of CKCW depends on a transition to the FM band.

367 MR. RUSSELL: Members of the Commission, the importance of moving to the FM band is heightened by the applications for new FM undertakings, which the Commission is considering at this hearing.

368 Additional FM competitors in this market would provide listeners and advertisers with new alternatives which could deliver superior sound and signal quality. As a result, the difficulties CKCW has faced on AM would be further amplified as our audience and advertisers migrate to other options. Quite simply, the move to FM becomes critical in the event another station is licenced for Moncton.

369 While the transition to FM is imperative for CKCW, we believe the conversion will have relatively little impact on the other stations in our community. CKCW is already present in the market and has been for 66 years. The increase in our audience and revenues, which we hope to achieve on FM, are simply incremental to our existing level of activity. They do not represent the kind of impact posed by an entirely new undertaking. As such, approval of this application will have the least effect on existing stations.

370 MR. BARKER: CKCW will continue to operate in the hot country format, a genre distinct from the classic rock offered on CJMO FM and the adult contemporary/light hits available on CKCW's sister station, CFQM FM. The audiences for each of these formats are similarly distinct, with little crossover appeal.

371 We believe much of our growth will come from new tuning. First, our improved signal will reach a greater audience more reliably. And secondly, the improved sound quality on the FM will attract hot country fans currently accessing music on CD, tapes, digital music services, TNN and CMT.

372 We also believe the transition to FM will allow CKCW to attract new advertisers not currently utilising radio. While our central market area will remain essentially the same, the FM signal will deliver improved service to the counties and communities surrounding Moncton.

373 This improved coverage, along with our country music format, will make CKCW particularly attractive to rural businesses not currently using radio advertising. We firmly believe the transition to FM will have little impact on existing stations and will not jeopardize their ability to meet their commitments to Moncton listeners.

374 MR. MacMULLIN: CKCW plays a unique and valuable role in our community. Our schedule is intensely local. News, sports, weather and traffic reports are provided regularly throughout the day. Indeed, we are proud to be the news and information leader in the market and the only station providing hourly news and information broadcasts, from 06:00 a.m. to 06:00 p.m. Our morning show features up-to-the-minute news with a strong local emphasis every 30 minutes, from 06:00 to 09:00 a.m.

375 In addition to a strong emphasis on daily local news and information, CKCW provides extensive coverage of local events affecting the community. Our programming gives voice to the concerns of the community and direct access to a forum for discussing relevant issues.

376 CKCW has successfully campaigned to force the city to meet its legal obligations to provide a bilingual sign in the front of City Hall, a move that over years eventually led to an increased awareness of language rights and developments such as simultaneous translation of council meetings.

377 In the mid 1970s, CKCW was solely responsible for finding the patrol car belonging to two police officers who had been kidnapped and were later found murdered. As a result of our coverage, we were given national and regional awards by the Radio Television New Directors Association.

378 CKCW was also the vehicle for raising more than $200,000 in a one-day radiothon which resulted in a trust fund of nearly $2,000,000 for the bereaved families of the two policemen.

379 We've earned a reputation for professional, up-to-the-minute news and sports reporting along with a dedication to intensely local service, traditions we intend to continue on the FM dial.

380 Yet, our commitment to the community goes beyond local programming. CKCW is an intrical part of Moncton. We sponsor numerous local events, including the Terry Fox Run, the Boys and Girls Hoop Classic Tournaments, the Greater Moncton Santa Claus Parade and our own Startrack Talent Search. We also co-sponsor, present and welcome other events, some of which are on the screen.

381 Our promotion staff is on the go in the station's promotional vehicles every day. We also provide free airtime to non-profit and charitable organizations, donate prizes for their events and have station personnel and teams participating. The airtime value exceeded $456,000 on CKCW alone in 1999.

382 We are proud of our reputation as a willing partner to the charitable and not-for-profit organizations of Greater Moncton.

383 MS HILCHIE: CKCW endeavours to reflect the diversity of the local community in our staff, both on the air and behind the scenes.

384 We have a recent initiative here in Moncton to accommodate a disabled person. Jason Constantine moved to Moncton from his home in Sussex so he could learn to live independently with cerebral palsy. He is currently at the Father J. Angus MacDonald Centre, here in Moncton.

385 We met with Jason to discuss volunteering at CKCW and we discovered a passion for radio and that of a talented young man. We are installing a wheelchair lift and have made modifications to our washrooms so he may feel comfortable in his current 24-week, paid training program.

386 We have an exclusive initiative with the Atlantic Media Institute. This is a broadcast school serving students throughout the Atlantic Provinces, which is based in Halifax. We offer an internship program to designated group members at a Maritime Broadcasting System station most appropriate to their needs. The purpose of this internship program is to provide students with real life radio experience in the areas of particular interest to them.

387 Currently, 31 students are enrolled at the Atlantic Media Institute, of which 10 are women, two are visible minorities, two are Aboriginals, and one is a visually-impaired person.

388 MR. MacMULLIN: CKCW has also demonstrated a dedication to the development of Canadian country music, with a focus on the promotion of home-grown talent and artists from the east coast.

389 We know Startrack has had an impact on the career of Denise Murray, one of the winners of our Startrack talent search in 1995.

390 The 1998 Startrack winner, John Curtis Sampson, was the winner of two major awards at last month's East Coast Music Awards.

391 We propose to build upon our significant contributions to Canadian country music should CKCW be authorized for operation on the FM band.

392 Approval of this application will result in direct expenditures in the amount of $140,000 minimum over five years, along with an array of programming commitments aimed at supporting and showcasing new talent development.

393 First, Maritime will contribute $50,000 over five years to FACTOR. We have seen firsthand the important role FACTOR can play in assisting artists. Quite simply, FACTOR is the brand name in Canadian talent development, and we are pleased to provide this contribution to its work.

394 Secondly, CKCW will introduce an annual country music song-writing competition with annual awards exceeding $18,000. This commitment represents more than $90,000 flowing directly to Canadian artists over five years. In addition, the winners will receive musical equipment and studio recording time.

395 MR. BARKER: Thirdly, CKCW will host an annual country music concert featuring performances by our song-writing award winners.

396 We have always been a strong supporter of local and regional musical talent, particularly through our 10 years of involvement in Maritime Broadcasting's Startrack. We are committed to providing the encouragement, support and exposure new artists need to create new Canadian music for airplay on Canadian stations. We believe the song-writing contest and concert will quickly become a major highlight of the east coast country music calendar.

397 Fourthly, CKCW will introduce Maritime Country. This new programming initiative will feature up-and-coming local and regional country artists in a one-hour weekly show.

398 Artists that will benefit from the exposure of this show include New Brunswickers Kevin Chase, Brian Malley, Shirley Albert and Shirley Myers. Other regional artists would include Randy J. Martin and Kim Albert, from PEI, as well as Terry Kelly, John Curtis Sampson, and The Sons of Maxwell, from Nova Scotia.

399 This weekly show will be produced in the studios of CKCW. I should point out that while all of these artists will be featured in Maritime Country, they all have received extensive airplay in the past year on CKCW.

400 However, this program offers four distinct advantages:

401 One, they will be heard, pending a flip to FM, by a significantly larger audience;

402 Two, the radio station will devote considerably more time to profiling the individual musical artists;

403 Three, to ensure maximum potential listening, this show will be promoted a minimum of 20 times weekly on CKCW; and

404 Four, we are pleased to advise the Commission that Maritime Country will also air on all other Maritime Broadcasting country stations, including: CFCY, Charlottetown; CJCB, Sydney; CKNB, Campbellton; CFAN, Miramichi; CJCW, Sussex; CKDY-1, in Weymouth; CKDY, Digby; CKAD, Middleton; CFAB, Windsor; CKEN, Kentville; and CHFX, Halifax. These stations have a combined weekly reach of 377,400 listeners.

405 Finally, CKCW will provide ongoing promotion and support for Canadian music through programming features, interviews and on-air performances. Whether it is Denise Murray live and unplugged in our studio or Chris Cummings, CKCW, along with all other Maritime Broadcasting country radio stations, will be an east coast showplace for Canadian new country music.

406 We are proud of the Canadian Talent Development initiatives proposed as part of our application. We believe they represent a comprehensive package for supporting Canadian artists. From funding directed to FACTOR, to the grassroots initiatives of our song-writing contest and concert, through to the dedication of on-air resources to playing Canadian country music, CKCW will support and celebrate Canadian talent.

407 MR. RUSSELL: Members of the Commission, in summary, we believe the transition of CKCW to the FM band fully satisfies the criteria established by the Commission in evaluating new licence applications and represents multiple benefits to the community and to the Canadian broadcasting system.

408 Improved signal quality will allow CKCW to grow its audience and to properly serve listeners throughout its licenced area. Our realistic and achievable business plan sets out a road map for ensuring CKCW maintains its hot country sound, a distinct format and proven contributor to the diversity within the marketplace.

409 The long-term enhanced revenue picture resulting from the move to FM will allow CKCW to continue its commitment as a local news and information leader.

410 The programming on CKCW is intensely local with more news than any other station in the market. CKCW will be positioned to preserve its place as a distinctive news voice in the community.

411 The move to FM will have no material impact on existing stations. In fact, CKCW will grow the audience for Moncton radio as a whole, as it attracts country music fans presently choosing listening to CDs and tapes over AM radio.

412 CKCW's transition to FM will also expand the advertising market. The station's ability to reliably reach the counties and the communities surrounding Moncton, along with its new country format, will appeal to rural businesses not currently utilising radio advertising.

413 The financial security available from improved revenues will position CKCW, a 66 year-old heritage station, to continue as a vibrant contributor to the Moncton radio market and will be imperative to its viability should an additional station be licenced.

414 Approval of this application will bring significant benefits through the development of Canadian musical talent. Maritime Broadcasting has a strong record of CTDI. The proposals put forward as part of this application are in keeping with its proud history.

415 Maritime will contribute $50,000 over five years to FACTOR and will establish an annual country music song-writing contest and concerts with total prize money of over $90,000 over five years.

416 In addition, a comprehensive package of programming features and support will be put in place to ensure the development of east coast country music talent.

417 While the anticipated increase of audience and revenues will position this heritage station to continue its contributions to our community, this growth will nave no adverse impact on the competitive balance in the market.

418 We look forward to the opportunity to preserve CKCW's longstanding commitment to this community of Moncton and to building on our commitment to Canadian country music. The move of this station to the FM band is critical to our ability to do so.

419 We would be pleased to answer any questions that the Commission might have.

420 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Russell, and members of the Panel.

421 Commissioner Cardozo, please.

422 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you, Madam Chair.

423 Thank you, Mr. Russell and colleagues.

424 Thanks for your welcome too, to Moncton, and may I welcome you to your hearing, and hopefully your stay with us will be as pleasant as our stay with you.

425 MR. RUSSELL: We're hoping so.

426 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Let me just tell you what I will -- the areas of questioning I'd like to go through. And as you well know, the purpose of the area, this is not a series of trick questions but rather it's our attempt to try and get as much information on the record as possible to assist us make our decision at the end of the day.

427 So first, we'll start with a general background of Maritime Broadcasting. Then, talk a little bit about financial projections and the business plan that the Chair mentioned in her opening comments. Third will be competition in the Moncton market. Fourth will be programming. Fifth will be Canadian Talent Development.

428 Don't you wish we gave this to you ahead of time so you wouldn't have to write this down real fast?

429 MR. RUSSELL: Not at all.

430 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Sixth will be employment equity. Seventh, technical issues. And then we'll close with a general question to allow you to summarize your presentation and the question and answer session too.

431 So let me start with this particular chapter. Actually, let's start with Maritime Broadcasting. How long has the corporation been around as Maritime Broadcasting?

432 MR. RUSSELL: With its current ownership, with Mrs. Godsoe, Robert Pace, and myself as the partners, it will be five years this year. But Maritime Broadcasting has a very, very rich heritage throughout the Maritimes. The actual name Maritime Broadcasting goes back to CHNS in Halifax, one of the heritage radio stations in Nova Scotia.

433 And Maritime is really made up at this stage of the old Eastern Broadcasting Company, which was owned by Jack Shoon and Irving Zucher and their managers. That's where CKCW and CFQM comes into the picture.

434 Our acquisition of AVR, the Annapolis Valley Radio down through the Annapolis Valley, and our acquisition a couple of years ago of the Fundy Group, which had two radio stations in Sydney, Celtic Broadcasting, and Fundy Broadcasting in Saint John, the two radio stations there. That basically makes up our group.

435 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. Can we go back now to the beginning of this chapter, which is CKCW, and I'm wondering if it's fair to trace it to August of 1998, which is not very far back, but when you switched the country to the AM --

436 MR. RUSSELL: Yes.

437 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  -- and switched your adult contemporary to the FM? I assume that was to get a fairly good frequency for the adult contemporary.

438 What was your plan with regards to the AM? I noticed that the numbers are not that great, or at least you feel they could be doing better. Did you anticipate moving your country service to an FM at some point, given that by that point, we had changed our commercial --

439 MR. RUSSELL: Policy.

440 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  -- radio policy and allowed for two FMs in the market?

441 MR. RUSSELL: I could answer that from two perspectives, and I'll ask our Vice-President of Programming, Garry Barker, to give you the rationale behind our move. We were forced into moving, from our perspective, and we hope that we can successfully explain that to you.

442 CFQM was the country station. It was hot country on FM and we did our research, which Garry will refer to in a moment, and we brought country to CKCW AM in August of 1998, where it originally was years ago.

443 But we also were cognizant of the new commercial radio policy of April of 1998 and we said let's find out if this continual erosion of CKCW just as a generic AM, as major AMs, heritage AMs are going through across the country, if that continues.

444 So we analysed our situation. We knew that we had a losing situation on the AM. We were forced into moving adult contemporary onto our FM and reverting to AM with country. And we were hopeful that a call would be made in the future for additional licences for Moncton. We've had a corporate policy on that for a couple of years, three or four years now, but that we felt there would be a call because Moncton is a successful radio market.

445 It's successful. Most recently, in the last four or five, six years because of a change of ownership at Atlantic Stereo. The previous owners of Atlantic Stereo didn't have the success they did with the transfer of ownership. And the market became far more professional and there's a greater awareness of radio.

446 And as a result, we felt that with the change in policy in April 1998 there would eventually be a call for licences for Moncton. And if we have done our job over the past 66 years and we had a good case to come forward here today, to change our AM to FM.

447 Perhaps I could ask Garry to give you the rationale behind our change because he researched it and developed the plan and the strategy behind it.

448 MR. BARKER: Thanks, Merv.

449 I think it's important to emphasize that prior to August of 1998, CKCW was oldies and there was country on CFQM and there was classic rock on CJMO. There was no adult contemporary whatsoever. So we did research and it wasn't really a huge surprise to find out that there was a huge hole in the Moncton radio marketplace, that being adult contemporary. Artists such as Céline Dion, the Backstreet Boys and even New Brunswick's own Roch Voisine were not available to be heard on any of the commercial Moncton radio stations.

450 I think it's also important to realize that if we were oldies and country, and by changing to adult contemporary from oldies, I believe we significantly added to diversity within the Moncton marketplace.

451 We had good 12 plus numbers on CFQM, but the demographics combined with CKCW's were not strong on the younger end. Well over 50 per cent of all tuning to CFQM was by people 40 plus and a full 65 per cent of all tuning to CKCW was by people 45 years of age and over.

452 Thus, we had a combo of the two stations that delivered decent, overall numbers, but numbers that were very poor when it came to the demographics that the majority of advertisers wanted.

453 There was, as you can appreciate, no way we could youthen CKCW. In fact, we tried this in the past and our direct competitors simply duplicated a portion of their music. So given the choice of listening to AM or FM, we could not win.

454 To have a combo with good demographics and to add significant diversity to the marketplace, the switch was necessary. Only our FM had the potential of attracting a younger demographic.

455 MR. RUSSELL: To basically summarize it, we saw the move as an opportunity to add diversity to the market. We had to drop our oldies, but it created diversity within the marketplace. We felt that after our 66-year history on AM with a great heritage radio station serving this area well with a limited signal, that perhaps we could come back and ask for a level playing field in this marketplace after the April 1998 decision on commercial radio.

456 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thanks for that.

457 So if someone else hadn't triggered the call, you would probably trigger it at some point?

458 MR. RUSSELL: Yes, indeed, we would have been here. You can count on it.

459 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And in terms of the AM, your plan is to abandon that. You haven't thought from a business plan point of view of looking at a change for the AM down the road?

460 MR. RUSSELL: No. Our goal would be to leave it as off the air. It served us well. It's been a marvellous, marvellous radio station, highly respected in the broadcast community, but it's a new era and it requires a level playing field.

461 There hasn't been a successful AM application granted in Moncton since 1934. Every radio station that has been granted a licence and has remained on the air since has been FM in private and community and campus radio.

462 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay, and can I tie this part of the discussion back to my earlier question about Maritime Broadcasting and just to get a sense from you about the strategic plan, the long term to the extent that you can share it with us? It is a Maritime-based company, and all your stations are within the three provinces. Is that where you intend to remain and specialize?

463 MR. RUSSELL: We are -- the ownership of our company is strictly Maritime. I'm a New Brunswicker. My two partners are Nova Scotians. Mrs. Godsoe lives in Halifax. So does Mr. Pace and myself.

464 Our expertise is in the Maritimes. Our management and staff are primarily from the Maritimes. They love the Maritimes. If they're not from the Maritimes, they've moved here and loved it. And the Maritimes provides a great quality of life. So it's our intention over the next few years to be back in front of you, requesting probably additional heritage stations that we own, that we convert them to the technology that best serves the audience.

465 And if there's an opportunity for an additional licence in an area, let me say in Atlantic Canada, that'll be it. But our parameters are strictly Atlantic Canada. We know it, we appreciate our audiences. Our audiences and communities appreciate us and we know what goes on in an intrical basis each and every day.

466 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay, so we are so served notice and we'll see you again on others, I'm sure.

467 MR. RUSSELL: We look forward to it.

468 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: But we won't go further down that road for now, lest we tie the hands of any other future panel.

469 Let me just -- I have one more question on the financial projections. I note that from the annual returns that you had filed with us, you had a bit of a blip downwards in 1998, with CKCW. Is that primarily --

470 MR. RUSSELL: There has been a major amount of erosion over the past nine years. There has been an eight-year slide on CKCW and --

471 Actually, there was a bit of an improvement for calendar year 1999, but we're back to the slide again in the near 2000. But I think that's that way it goes with AM. No matter how great a service you provide, people are just not tuning into AM on a regular basis as they did.

472 Perhaps I could ask Darren Nantes to expand on that slide financially.

473 MR. NANTES: Thank you, Merv.

474 When we started discussing the business plan model, if you will, for flipping CKCW from AM to FM channel, we went back and looked at the history of specifically CKCW AM and some of our other heritage AM stations. And it was rather remarkable when we started looking at the numbers over a broader period of time.

475 Excuse me if I refer to my notes. We looked just over the last eight to nine years and the combined both national and local revenues for CKCW AM declined in the area of roughly 66 per cent, which was a continuous deterioration roughly in the area of about 15 per cent per year. So it was a very consistent trend, and which we are seeing in some of our other heritage AMs.

476 When we proceeded with the format changes which was about the beginning of our fiscal 1999, we did in the course of 1999 see a slight improvement, which we had hoped to see, obviously, in terms of the strategy. But what we had projected at the time and is proving to be correct this current fiscal year, is that the move would help shore up that continual trend loss of upwards of 15 per cent a year, should hopefully slow that loss for a shortened period of time.

477 In effect, this current year, we're already starting to see that erosion pick up again in the area of five per cent, year to date.

478 MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Commissioner, I feel that if we never had the success of CFQM, to combine with our revenues and our costs of CKCW AM, we would have been back here a long time ago, trying to find some solution to the problem of the erosion.

479 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So that particular year of 1998, in your view, wasn't a particularly bad blip. It was just part of a downward --

480 MR. RUSSELL: Yes.

481 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  -- spiral. Okay.

482 I'm going to move to some of the competitive issues and ask when you're taking about garnering a larger audience for CKCW on FM, if you have a sense of where these listeners would come from. And I've got three explanations I'd like you to comment on, and you can add any others. But I'm interested in whether you see them coming from those who presently tune to out-of-town stations, those who have stopped listening to radio altogether, or those who will increase their time listening when you go to air, who discover the miracle of radio when they hear you on the air, or whether there are other explanations about where these people are going to come from?

483 MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Cardozo, when we had country, hot country music on CFQM, we had a signal that reached the far shore of the Shediac shore, as I refer to it, all the way up to Bouctouche and Richibucto. When we moved country to our AM, the restrictions of our AM signal, we lost that audience. For all intents and purposes, we lost that audience, particularly in the winter months.

484 So we will -- in fact, we put a number on it of about 50,000, I think haven't we, that we feel that we can revisit hot country music on FM if this application is approved, from that area.

485 One of the interesting things that's going to happen relatively soon, Moncton has a great migration come the May 24th weekend to the shore, as it is referred to. The eight years that I've lived in Moncton, people pack up and head to the cottage. And you get halfway down the road between Shediac, the Shediac shore and Moncton, and you lose CKCW.

486 So we know that we'll be able to provide that service and it will create continuity of those that rely on CKCW currently for news and information and hot country music. They'll be able to maintain that if we are successful in getting this application.

487 So we see that migration of people being very, very instrumental. It's a large, large number. I'm sure that the other station here in Moncton would recognize that as well. That is an important area to us in repatriating those hot country listeners that we had when we had country on FM.

488 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay.

489 Now, let me move to some of the issues around the French and English market that we talked about with the previous applicant.

490 Do you see yourself affected seriously if you were to move from AM to FM and we licenced as well another English and French market? Or put another way, how many more stations do you think the market can take?

491 MR. RUSSELL: We are first to recognize that the Moncton radio market is successful. It's a good radio market because there are two excellent radio broadcasters in this market that keep radio awareness and radio advertising awareness up.

492 Even with the erosion that we have suffered over the last few years, it's a clear-cut indication of the competition. And there's new media as well that is cutting into our activity. We have been on record the last few years of suggesting that the next licence, we felt the next commercial licence for Moncton would be a French FM. We heard talk of that over the years.

493 As you know, in 1981, CHLR AM was granted a French-language radio station. They received some very substantial help from the old Eastern Broadcasting, but they never had the financial wherewithal to hang on. And three or four years later, they went dark, unfortunately.

494 We feel that the market has certainly matured since 1981 to 1984 and the revenues are there, and we have been on record, I think you'll find, in the CRTC files a letter of support of our feelings corporately that an FM French-language commercial radio station would be appropriate for Moncton.

495 However, we caution you in keeping mind the past history. And I know we are a participant, and we'll talk about that later on today.

496 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Right, I was about to caution you on that.

497 MR. RUSSELL: Yes, but we've always agreed with that, and it's a matter of record.

498 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And what's your view about another English-language station in the market?

499 MR. RUSSELL: We think the other English-language radio station FM licence to be granted should be the flip on CKCW.

500 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Now, come on. It sounds like everything has to begin and end with you.

501 MR. RUSSELL: Well, it makes good sense. We have a 66 year-old heritage radio station that is disadvantaged. If AM was so important to all the applicants, why didn't they apply for it?

502 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. Let me ask you one more question, and my apologies if this sounds mean, but it's a possible scenario. If we were not to licence your -- this particular application of the switch but were to licence the other application for a country station on 96.9, I don't want to get into the pros and cons of their application. You will have a chance to talk about that later at another phase, but if there was another FM, another country format station on FM and you had what you have now, which is your country on AM, do you think you would continue using your AM as a country?

503 MR. RUSSELL: I think it would be devastating. We would have to -- we would certainly have to look at it from the moment the decision came down.

504 I think it would be -- there are other markets in Atlantic Canada where this happens. We have an FM hot country station in Halifax and it's up against an AM traditional country station, CFDR or KIXX, and it doesn't do very well against our station at all. It's a very minimal audience and it's -- So we would envisage the same future for our CKCW, which is currently a vibrant radio station.

505 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay, let me turn to local programming, and essentially the programming issue focus and the local aspect of it.

506 How would you describe it, or do you have a sense of how many hours per week you would be involved in local programming? I listened to your presentation. You had quite a bit of detail there about some of the things that you'll be doing.

507 Do you have a sense of how many hours a week would be local programming?

508 MR. RUSSELL: I'll defer to the gentleman who's responsible for the day-to-day operations, Jim MacMullin.

509 MR. MacMULLIN: Well, already in the market CKCW is delivering in spoken word, for example, 6.5 hours of pretty intense local news and information, which is far and away the most in the market now because we carry newscasts hourly through the run of our day, 6:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m., and every 30 minutes during the breakfast show, between 06:00 and 09:00.

510 Other local involvements, of course, often involves entertainers when we present their acts. We have them live on the air, in the studio live and unplugged, or co-hosting morning shows with the local angle in support of them. Those are the kinds of things that are critical. In the day-to-day CKCW really is and has been looked upon by this community forever as the source of the local information, whether it's the storm stuff we're doing tomorrow morning because of school closures, or involvement in a major sporting event, like we're currently doing right as we speak here. We have a reporter on the payroll in Saskatoon, bringing us updates about Russ Howard at the Canadian Men's Curling Championship. He's a local Moncton curler, and his rank is there competing.

511 So those are the kinds of local things, and as far as on top of the exact hours of it, it would vary from week to week, but it's pretty intense every week, starting with the 6.5 hours of the local news and information.

512 MR. BARKER: I might just put Jim on the spot here by asking him as to what involvement the station had just this past weekend and the amount of staff that were involved.

513 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Actually, I'd like to endorse that question.

--- Laughter / Rires

514 MR. MacMULLIN: This past weekend in the storm weather, you mean?

515 MR. BARKER: No, no, in terms of the activity that Scott was involved with, and so on.

516 MR. MacMULLIN: Oh, the many promotions and the Para-Skate promotion?

517 MR. BARKER: The Para-Skate, yes.

518 MR. MacMULLIN: Forgive me, I'm wandering. Yes, we just recently -- and this is an example of things we do on a regular basis in town.

519 The Canadian Paraplegic Association just completed ninth or tenth in a row year of a fundraising activity called Para-Skate. It involves some corporate sponsors too that they recruit. And this was their best year ever. They had the largest number of teams. It was heavily promoted by CKCW and our sister station. Our staff was very heavily involved and they raised a total of $23,000 for the Canadian Paraplegic Association, this one-day event at the local rink. So there's a lot of that stuff in the day-to-day and week-to-week and month-to-month of CKCW.

520 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Mr. Barker, if you have more tough questions, do slip them to me. I'd be happy to ask them.

521 Let me ask you about Maritime Country. I just want to understand the exact -- it's a program that's on once a week?

522 MR. BARKER: It will be.

523 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: It will be.

524 MR. BARKER: It's a new initiative. It will be a one-hour weekly program.

525 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And it's east coast country new artists, or east coast country artists?

526 MR. BARKER: Up-and-coming artists.

527 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So primarily up-and-coming artists.

528 MR. BARKER: Yes.

529 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Do you have any plans for open line programming?

530 MR. MacMULLIN: We will do open line programming when something relevant going on in the community warrants it, but not on a continuous basis.

531 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. So you're aware of our guidelines in terms of open line programming, the need of the station to be responsible for what does go on the air? Are you aware of the CRTC guidelines with regards to the responsibilities the station bears in terms of what goes on the air?

532 MR. MacMULLIN: For open line programming, you mean?

533 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Yes.

534 MR. MacMULLIN: Yes.

535 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay.

536 Does local programming include programming on the weekends, or is it primarily during the five weekdays?

537 MR. MacMULLIN: News is carried of course seven days a week with the hourly one all day long, weekdays, and weekend mornings at this point. Some of the new initiatives would be programmed through the weekend, so it's a smattering of seven days, but the local news would be the heavy content Monday to Friday for people's normal routine daily.

538 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So if there are events on weekends that warrant coverage --

539 MR. MacMULLIN: Oh, they're heavily covered when we get involved, as per the Para-Skate when we did live reports and updates from there on the progress and events, et cetera. And if it was a newsworthy item, which we've done in the past -- weather's a good example here at this time of year. We've had storm teams come into work Saturday to make sure the community gets the necessary information because the weather has shut things down or is creating a hazard.

540 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. So just to clarify this. It's probably obvious, but your music is country music, but the local programming is general. It's not necessarily country focused.

541 MR. MacMULLIN: It is at times I guess focussed on the artist, as the announcers do their hosting of their program through playing the music, which they interact with. And oftentimes, as I've told you, there's artists in the studio with them doing that.

542 But the other stuff is generally related to events going on in the community, information that is pertinent and helpful to the audience, just keeping them informed and up to date from a very, very emphasized local angle.

543 MR. BARKER: It's generally targeted at 35 plus, so it's not exclusively just to country listeners. It's 35 plus and I think without asking a question, we may want -- perhaps you may wish Jim MacMullin to expand just a little bit on what I think is a great example of something that was making the national news across the country virtually every day this past summer, which was the City of Moncton and the water supply, and what the radio stations, our CKCW in particular did, if I'm allowed to lead the witness here.

544 MR. MacMULLIN: And again, that's another example and I obviously didn't have these all written down, and they're in there.

545 Last summer --

546 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Yes, sure.

547 MR. MacMULLIN:  -- if you were aware, the City of Moncton, for the second time, had a major problem with the local water supply and the fact that people, for -- I think it was very close to five weeks -- had to actually boil water or buy water. It just wasn't safe to consume. That was caused for a lot of reasons.

548 As responsible people, as broadcasters and operating radio stations, our news team of course did intense coverage on that. But in addition, we were on constantly with updates and reminders that the water's not safe for your own personal consumption, and those kind of things. And not only on the air, but we would field literally hundreds of calls from listeners with concerns who would direct their questions to us, and we'd often redirect them to somewhere else. But the on-air coverage was intense.

549 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: To clarify, Mr. Barker, I really don't mind if you lead each other. The purpose here is to get as much information on the record. So feel free to guide each other.

550 Can I move to Canadian Talent Development and just ask you a specific question about part of it? You plan to spend $18,000 a year towards your music-writing competition. Could you give us a little more information about how that competition would run?

551 MR. RUSSELL: We have a fair amount of experience in this area and we've learned the hard way and the good way in talent searches. Our 10 years of Startrack has an overwhelming record of success and if there have been mistakes made in the search for talent, we've done it, but I think we're very prepared for this particular song-writing, country music song-writing contest.

552 We are contributing $90,000 direct minimum to the seeking of country music song-writing contest, just for CKCW and this particular area.

553 We have done this in other markets over the years and we set it up. We see the prizing as $10,000 first, $5,000 second, $3,000 for third. And then we'll present a showcase, a concert showcase for those winning song writers and a venue. And then we will be adding, which we did not quantify, merchandise prizing and studio time as well for them.

554 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And the experience you've had in the past has been with this station or with other stations of Maritime?

555 MR. RUSSELL: The experience we've had in the past is our annual report on Startrack. It's the -- we've had an excellent record of 10 years in Startrack.

556 Denise Murray, who was going to be with us today, was one of the winners.

557 This past year, to give you an indication of our background, there was 117 separate acts entered in the competition this year and there were 351 songs that were original songs written for the event. About 20 per cent annually of the songs and the artists come from CKCW. In fact, last year's winner, 1999 winner -- Tod Geldart and his band, they were the grand prize winner -- they were from CKCW.

558 I should point out that over the past 10 years of Startrack, it was a marvellous, marvellous initiative that was developed at a CRTC hearing right here, in Moncton, up at the Brunswick Hotel. It was a question by a commissioner, and we put it together basically on the spot and reconfirmed it.

559 Over the 10-year history of Startrack, we have brought forward 1,035 new acts and 3,105 original songs written for the competition. So we have a little bit of experience in it. We have people volunteering each and every market. And to answer your question more directly, about 20 per cent of all of those songs and artists come from CKCW.

560 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay.

561 The commitment you made for Canadian Talent Development has been over a five-year period.

562 MR. RUSSELL: Yes.

563 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: A total of $140,000 over those five years.

564 What would be your plan if you were given a seven-year licence? I notice that $140,000 comes to about $29,000 a year.

565 MR. RUSSELL: We would happily extend it for a seven-year licence.

566 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: At the same level?

567 MR. RUSSELL: At the same level and we would make it a condition of licence, if you wish.

568 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: That was my next question.

569 MR. RUSSELL: We would accept it gladly.

570 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Geez, you guys don't only answer good questions -- or provide good questions, you answer them before they're asked.

571 MR. RUSSELL: I was listening very intently to the questioning of Madam Chair to Mr. -- to the President of Telemedia, Mr. Beaudoin.

572 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Let me ask about employment equity. I take it Maritime Broadcasting as a whole would be over 100 employees?

573 MR. RUSSELL: Yes, it is.

574 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So you come under the HRDC guidelines?

575 MR. RUSSELL: We do.

576 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Could you nevertheless give us a thumbnail sketch of the employment equity?

577 MR. RUSSELL: Sure. Nancy, would --

578 MS HILCHIE: Sure. Our corporate policy is always to strive for diversity in our broadcast communities.

579 It's always been a challenge sometimes to invite people into our broadcast families. They don't quite feel comfortable. I think we are on the right track. We've been proactive in approaching the people at Atlantic Media Institute and going in there and explaining to them about our industry and inviting them to internship at our radio station. And we're really quite hopeful that's going to help us build a representation in our stations.

580 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I notice on the record you've filed some letters with regards to a particular program you ran at K100 in Saint John with regards to the black community there.

581 MS HILCHIE: Yes.

582 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: You've had, you mentioned in the program today with the Atlantic Media Institute there were two Aboriginal students among them?

583 MS HILCHIE: That's correct.

584 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And have you had any Aboriginal students in the past, or employees?

585 MS HILCHIE: No, we have not.

586 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. So how long does this internship run for?

587 MS HILCHIE: We're pretty flexible on it. It depends on the areas that they're interested in and we'll spend as much time as they need based on their program back at school as well. So how much time they can --

588 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And do they get credit for that at school?

589 MS HILCHIE: Yes, they do.

590 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay.

591 MR. RUSSELL: And I might add that this is an exclusive agreement we have with the Media Institute that our stations will provide this internship.

592 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay.

593 Now, if for some strange reason of fate or mathematics, we were to grant another station 94.5, but we've done this before where we feel that your particular application is particularly worthy, would you be prepared to come back and apply for a different frequency, given the same application?

594 MR. RUSSELL: Our -- Mr. Commissioner, our research in this area was specifically done on 94.5 and we relied heavily upon our expertise of Mr. Brian Sawyer, who's with us.

595 I think, Brian, would you offer some assistance here?

596 MR. SAWYER: Thank you, Merv.

597 Mr. Commissioner, yes indeed, 94.5 was the centre of our research basically because it is an allocation for Moncton, has least impact on the FM plan as it exists. There's virtually no interference caused to or from other stations and is therefore the prime frequency, in our opinion.

598 I would not suggest to Maritime Broadcasting Corporation any other frequency that had other deficiencies. We would indeed however be prepared to look for something else, but I suspect it would be of less -- it probably would not meet the coverage criteria that we were looking for, but certainly we'll do our best to find something.

599 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So you feel that this is the best -- among the FM frequencies available, this is the best of them?

600 MR. SAWYER: Absolutely so.

601 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay.

602 MR. SAWYER: In terms of having the least impact on the existing Industry Canada FM plan, yes.

603 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Well, that covers the specific questions I have, and I'll just ask you if you'd like to add anything more, or to take a few minutes to summarize your application, both on your earlier presentation and on the questions that we've asked, or haven't asked.

604 MR. RUSSELL: Thank you, Mr. Commissioner.

605 We feel that the approval of our application is critical to the life of CKCW as it is today. This is a station that has served its communities well. It has a 66-year history and a heritage of pure service. It has helped countless Canadian musicians and song writers.

606 What we're really asking for is a level playing field in the Moncton market. The call is out there now for FM applications. We felt it was most appropriate for us to respond in the fashion of which we have done.

607 And when it comes to the issue of diversity, we are still maintaining the diversity with our hot country music and our strong information program background on CKCW.

608 We feel that this is an application that will not create any additional hardship on the stations that are currently here and we look forward to your positive response of permitting us to flip to FM so we can carry on this great heritage.

609 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you, Mr. Russell.

610 That completes my questions, Madam Chair.

611 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Commissioner Cardozo.

612 Counsel?

613 MR. McCALLUM: If the Commission were to grant your application, would you be looking for a period of either transition or simulcasting between the AM, the current AM and the FM?

614 MR. RUSSELL: I have read in previous approvals there's a transitional period of three to four months. I think that that would be appropriate for our transition.

615 MR. McCALLUM: So you would seek the Commission to grant --

616 MR. RUSSELL: Three to four months. It would give us, it would permit us time to make the current audience aware and also to create a promotional and advertising campaign in the areas we're trying to reach that we are there, and please tune us in. We're back.

617 MR. McCALLUM: So you would seek whatever permission or condition is required in the circumstances?

618 MR. RUSSELL: Yes.

619 MR. McCALLUM: Would you explain also how the AM signal is deteriorated after dark?

620 MR. RUSSELL: Could I call on our expert here in the area of technical matters, Brian Sawyer, how the AM is affected, particularly in the winter months?

621 MR. SAWYER: Thank you.

622 Sir, this has been a problem, of course, that has caused grief to many AM stations over the years. It's a phenomenon of the ionosphere reflecting the signal back to earth once the sun has set.

623 Basically, this means that any other frequency in the North American hemisphere operating on the same frequency has the potential to create a reflection or an interference to in this case the CKCW signal.

624 This occurs in the winter months quite early. In fact, I noticed we used the term 05:00 to 05:30. I've seen the phenomenon occurring as early as 03:30 in the afternoon.

625 And, of course, the condition holds throughout the entire evening and night time period and will only reverse that situation come approximately 08:30 to 09:00 o'clock in the morning.

626 MR. McCALLUM: So when you switched the format from country, from the FM to the AM in 1998, you stated that you lost about 50,000 listeners at that point in time, is that correct?

627 MR. BARKER: No, we didn't quantify that. If we do get the FM flip, we will have the potential of reaching an additional 50,000 listeners. The actual hard number in terms of full coverage from the format change in August of 1998 was that CFQM's audience dropped by 30,000 and CKCW's picked up in that full coverage area by 18,000.

628 But our potential expanded reach with the FM flip is 50,000.

629 MR. McCALLUM: And I'm wondering like where do those listeners go, or where would you pick up the extra ones from? Where did they go to?

630 MR. BARKER: It's very difficult to quantify full coverage areas. You have Saint John radio stations. You have Fredericton radio stations. And full coverage of course is not defined or not quantified by BBM. So we would expect that some of them, as we mentioned in our presentation, went to CDs and tapes and CMT and TNN and others could have, if they were able to receive another FM country, could have very well tuned in there.

631 MR. McCALLUM: Well, for example, I'm wondering if there's any out-of-station markets that they went to. I see that CJCW Sussex is a country station, for example. I wondered if some of them went there, for example.

632 MR. BARKER: CJCW is only country between 06:00 p.m. and 06:00 a.m. And again, I think there was the potential in terms of full coverage of other stations such as AKHJ in Fredericton or CHSJ in Saint John, that were programming country on FM, that depending on where the persons lived, if they could pick them up, could have perhaps gone there.

633 MR. RUSSELL: It should also be noted that along that shore, it would be possible I believe now to pick up the new country FM out of Summerside. The CRTC recently granted the approval of CJRW AM in Summerside to flip to FM to preserve their heritage, and they have a strong country signal along the shore. So we would repatriate those listeners as well.

634 MR. McCALLUM: So, for example, from Summerside, you'd repatriate some. Any others that you might think you might repatriate from?

635 MR. RUSSELL: Possibly from the cable, the digital cable services. There's a couple of series of country services that are available there. Possibly from CMT, probably from TNN.

636 MR. McCALLUM: Thank you.

637 If the Commission were to licence your flip from AM to FM and it were to licence the other FM applicant for a country station, what would be the impact? And in particular, do you think one of these stations would have to change format as a result?

638 MR. RUSSELL: It would be disastrous for CKCW AM. It would probably leave us no alternative other than changing format or coming back here with another case to flip to FM.

639 MR. McCALLUM: What about the other hypothesis -- another hypothesis of this licence being granted and also the CHR application being granted? What would be the impact if the CHR proposal were licenced on your format and your programming plans and your financial projections?

640 MR. RUSSELL: I think it would have impact on our sister station, CFQM, far more than it would on CKCW.

641 MR. McCALLUM: Would it cause you to skew to an older demographic, for example, if that happened?

642 MR. BARKER: Well, I think they're saying we're not catering to the younger one anyhow. I really think it's a question of what kind of product they come up with, and again, we will address this in our intervention in terms of diversity and the target audiences.

643 MR. McCALLUM: Thank you.

644 Similarly, with respect to the English and French market, do you believe that stations target the same advertisers between the English and French market?

645 MR. RUSSELL: I believe that there are some common advertisers that would probably spend money that's currently being spent on the English radio stations, specifically on an FM commercial radio station, if it were approved.

646 MR. McCALLUM: Do you think it's the same market for advertisers, or a different market?

647 MR. RUSSELL: I believe that there is a distinct market, but there is some common markets, some common advertising as well.

648 MR. McCALLUM: Could you quantify that, how much is common and how much is distinct?

649 MR. RUSSELL: It would -- it would be most difficult for me because I'd be getting into an application that's coming up a little later on. I know the numbers.

650 MR. McCALLUM: We'll save that for later, then.

651 MR. RUSSELL: Thank you.

652 MR. McCALLUM: I take it you're very proud of your Startrack proposal, your Startrack initiative that exists right now. Is that correct?

653 MR. RUSSELL: Yes.

654 MR. McCALLUM: What would be different between the current Startrack proposal and your Canadian Talent Development proposal that you've put on the table of $140,000 over five years?

655 MR. RUSSELL: Well, I should clarify the fact that the Startrack initiative had its final year in 1999. That was a five-year public benefit associated with the purchase of Maritime from Rogers to Maritime Broadcasting System. Thereby before that, it was an extension of a previous five-year commitment associated with Maritime licences.

656 So we managed to get 10 years and it's in its final year in 1999. The five-year commitment of Startrack, the road show and the production initiative are over at this stage. There are a number of other initiatives, public benefits associated with the purchase that are just wrapping up during the year 2000.

657 MR. McCALLUM: So if this application were denied then, then I take it Startrack would not be continuing?

658 MR. RUSSELL: No, Startrack, it's had its 10-year run, as we committed to as a public benefit associated with the purchase by Maritime Broadcasting.

659 MR. McCALLUM: But effectively, if this application is approved, Startrack would continue but flip to the FM?

660 MR. RUSSELL: No. No, Startrack is a public benefit council that had a five-year commitment with the purchase five years ago of Maritime from Rogers.

661 MR. McCALLUM: Let me rephrase it, then. A similar but distinct commitment of $140,000 as you place on the table today, which may resemble what you did in Startrack, would be your commitment?

662 MR. RUSSELL: Yes. Yes, I'm sorry.

663 MR. McCALLUM: And that would be extended over seven years, as you --

664 MR. RUSSELL: Yes, I'm sorry. Yes.

665 MR. McCALLUM: Thank you.

666 Thank you, Madam Chair.

667 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Counsel.

668 Thank you very much, gentlemen, and --

669 MR. RUSSELL: We'll see you later.

670 THE CHAIRPERSON:  -- we'll see you at the next phase.

671 MR. RUSSELL: Thank you very much.

672 THE CHAIRPERSON: That completes our work for this morning. We will reconvene at 01:30.

673 Nous reviendrons à 1:30 cet après-midi.

674 Merci.

--- Recess at 1200 / Suspension à 1200

--- Upon resuming at 1330 / Reprise à 1330

675 MS MacDONALD: Application by Denis Losier, on behalf of a company to be incorporated, for broadcasting licence to carry on a French-language FM radio programming undertaking in Moncton.

676 Alors, c'est une demande présentée par M. Denis Losier, représentant une société devant être constituée, en vue d'obtenir une licence de radiodiffusion visant l'exploitation d'une entreprise de programmation de radio FM de langue française à Moncton. La nouvelle station serait exploitée à la fréquence 99,9 mégahertz, canal 260B, avec une puissance apparente rayonnée de 9 500 watts.

677 La requérante propose d'exploiter une station généraliste de langue française.

678 Le Conseil note que la présente demande est en concurrence, sur le plan technique, avec d'autres demandes qui sont également inscrites à l'ordre du jour de l'audience pour l'utilisation de la fréquence 99,9 mégahertz.

679 Pour la requérante sont Denis Losier, Bernard Imbeault, Marie-Linda Lord, Brian Sawyer, Gary Aubé, Denis Grondin et Merv Russell.

680 Alors, allez-y. Merci.

681 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci. S'il vous plaît.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

682 M. LOSIER: Madame la Présidente, Madame et Monsieur les Commissaires, mon nom est Denis Losier. Je suis le président de la compagnie à être incorporée pour opérer une radio commerciale de langue française dans la grande région de Moncton.

683 Je suis actuellement PDG d'Assomption Mutuelle Vie et également président des Placements Louisbourg, une compagnie de gestion de portefeuille avec des actifs sous gestion de plus d'un milliard de dollars.

684 J'ai également par le passé été membre du Cabinet provincial, ayant occupé les postes de ministre du Développement économique et du Tourisme et celui des Pêches et de l'Aquaculture.

685 Je suis également membre de plusieurs conseils d'administration au niveau national et local. Et en consultant les documents qu'on vous a fournis, vous aurez certainement une idée plus précise de mon cheminement de carrière.

686 Avant de poursuivre, laissez-moi vous présenter les personnes qui m'accompagnent. Tout d'abord, M. Bernard Imbeault, à ma gauche, membre du conseil d'administration de la future radio, président et chef de la direction de la corporation Pizza Delight et General Financial Corporation, siège également sur plusieurs conseils d'administration à l'échelle nationale, homme d'affaires très bien connu au niveau local et régional. Et à ce moment-ci, M. Imbeault aimerait faire quelques commentaires.

687 M. IMBEAULT: Merci, Denis.

688 Bonjour. Bernard Imbeault, comme on vous a indiqué, résident de Moncton et qui opère ses affaires à partir de la Ville de Moncton, même si on a une représentation nationale, d'un chiffre d'affaires d'à peu près 110 millions. On a toujours maintenu nos opérations à partir de Moncton. Le siège social de la compagnie est resté et continue d'être à Moncton.

689 J'ai accepté d'être directeur de la compagnie de M. Losier parce que je crois dans le concept d'une radio privée. Et on m'a délégué comme directeur indépendant des intérêts des autres partenaires financiers. Je n'ai pas de participation financière mais je suis un directeur et j'ai accepté de l'être à ce niveau-là. Je crois que le leadership et l'entrepreneurship à Moncton au niveau de la communauté justifie en elle-même une radio commerciale.

690 Je me suis impliqué dans son projet et je vais m'assurer que le projet ait toutes les chances de réussir.

691 Merci.

692 M. LOSIER: Merci, Bernard.

693 M'accompagne également Lisanne Godin, qui est étudiante au Département d'information et communication de la Faculté des Arts de l'Université de Moncton.

694 Elle remplace aujourd'hui Marie-Linda Lord, qui devait être ici, qui est la directrice du Département. Mais il y a une grève à l'heure actuelle à l'université et Marie-Linda Lord se devait de respecter les piquets de grève. Donc, elle a choisi de ne pas participer cet après-midi. Mais heureusement, nous avons la participation de cette étudiante qui nous fera quelques commentaires tout à l'heure.

695 Également à ma droite, Denis Grondin, consultant en programmation radiophonique avec une expérience en radio qui s'échelonne sur 30 années, notamment pour les stations CKOI et CHOM FM de Montréal, présentement coordonnateur musical pour la compagnie de radiodiffusion Radio-Nord.

696 M. Grondin a été durant plusieurs années le grand responsable de l'Empire des futures stars, un concours prestigieux de la relève québécoise.

697 À l'arrière, Merv Russell, président-directeur général de MBS; Gary Aubé, consultant en communication, ancien directeur-général de CKQB FM à Ottawa et ancien directeur des programmes Q107 FM à Toronto et CKHJ FM à Fredericton; et également Brian Sawyer, notre consultant technique et ingénieur professionnel.

698 Madame la Présidente, c'est avec beaucoup d'enthousiasme que je me présente devant vous aujourd'hui. Au cours des 25 ou 30 dernières années, j'ai été activement impliqué dans la promotion et le développement de la communauté acadienne dans tous ses aspects.

699 J'ai notamment comparu ou écrit à plusieurs reprises au CRTC pour appuyer les demandes de Radio-Canada à Moncton pour l'obtention de budgets et de programmation additionnelle.

700 Nous avons dû, comme vous le savez, nous battre pour chaque minute additionnelle de programmation que la direction de Radio-Canada

a Montréal voulait bien nous accorder ici, à Moncton. Radio-Canada aura été pendant ces longues années le seul outil nous ayant permis de nous parler entre nous aux quatre coins de l'Acadie.

701 Aujourd'hui, je suis devant vous pour présenter ma propre demande de radio, car je crois que le temps est venu pour les francophones et les Acadiens et Acadiennes de la région de Moncton de pouvoir diriger leur propre station de radio commerciale.

702 Les Acadiens et les Acadiennes du Nouveau-Brunswick, particulièrement ceux et celles de la région de Moncton, ont connu au cours des 15 dernières années un développement tout à fait exceptionnel et extraordinaire.

703 Le développement de notre communauté s'est fait à tous les niveaux. Nos artistes, nos écrivains ont été reconnus partout sur la scène internationale. Nos entrepreneurs ont commencé à développer des affaires partout autour du globe. Nos institutions d'enseignement figurent parmi les institutions de grande qualité à travers le pays. Brefs, nous sommes fiers de nos accomplissements et de nos succès en tant que communauté.

704 Cette dynamique s'est poursuivie en 1994 par la tenue à Moncton du premier Congrès mondial acadien, réunissant les Acadiens et les Acadiennes de tous les coins du globe. Ce fut évidemment un moment de très grandes émotions.

705 En 1999, la communauté francophone internationale est venue rendre hommage à la ténacité, à la persévérance et à l'attachement de l'Acadie à la langue française, en tenant à Moncton le Sommet des pays ayant en commun l'usage de la langue française.

706 Le président de la République française, M. Jacques Chirac, s'est exprimé ainsi lors de l'ouverture du Sommet, et je cite:

707 Fin de la citation.

708 Et le premier ministre Lucien Bouchard, du Québec, de poursuivre, et je cite:

709 Fin de la citation.

710 Mesdames, Monsieur les Commissaires, cette reconnaissance par la communauté francophone à l'échelle du globe nous a fourni l'adrénaline dont nous avions besoin en ce début de millénaire.

711 Je vais maintenant demander à vous décrire et le plan d'affaires de notre radio.

712 Le groupe Angus Reid a effectué un sondage pour le compte de ma compagnie auprès de 300 francophones de la région de Moncton. Les résultats nous indiquent que:

713 Quatre-vingt-cinq pour cent des répondants s'accordent à dire qu'une station radiophonique commerciale de langue française renforcerait le tissu social de la collectivité francophone locale.

714 Soixante-dix-huit pour cent sont d'avis qu'il existe beaucoup de bonne musique locale francophone qui ne fait actuellement pas partie de la programmation des principales stations radiophoniques à Moncton.

715 Soixante-dix-huit pour cent ont déclaré qu'ils syntoniseraient au moins à l'occasion.

716 Et une nouvelle station de langue française augmenterait l'ensemble du nombre d'heures d'écoute radiophonique.

717 Au niveau du contexte économique, la croissance démographique des années 1990 a été beaucoup plus rapide à Moncton que dans toute autre communauté importante de l'Atlantique.

718 Le nombre de personnes de plus de 15 ans, par exemple, a augmenté de 14,5 pour cent.

719 La population qui se déclare bilingue est également en hausse, passant de 60 000 à 80 000 personnes.

720 La population de langue maternelle française est également en hausse, comme l'indiquent les tableaux.

721 Et l'audience bilingue âgée de 12 ans et plus est également en hausse, comme l'indique le sondage BBM.

722 Au niveau de la croissance économique, Moncton a connu au cours des 10 dernières années une croissance économique extraordinaire.

723 Le Globe and Mail, dans leur Report on Business, a déclaré que Moncton était un des meilleurs endroits à vivre et pour faire des affaires trois années consécutives entre 1994 et 1999.

724 La Banque Royale du Canada a décerné son prix le plus prestigieux, soit celui du Community Development Award, à la Ville de Moncton pendant les six dernières années.

725 La croissance des ventes au détail a été de 50,4 pour cent depuis 1991; la croissance de l'emploi, de 22 pour cent depuis 1991.

726 Le taux de chômage est baissé de 4,5 pour cent depuis 1990 pour se situer à l'heure actuelle à 4,9 pour cent dans la région de Moncton. Et ça, c'est le plus bas en 30 ans.

727 La création de nouvelles entreprises a augmenté de 11,8 pour cent depuis 1994. La croissance de l'emploi dans le secteur des technologies de l'information a aussi été très, très rapide.

728 L'avenir économique de Moncton nous apparaît comme étant très solide, reposant à la fois sur la distribution du gaz naturel, le développement de l'aéroport comme centre de transbordement, ou le cargo, les technologies de l'information et la distribution.

729 Alors, voilà pour le contexte économique dans lequel notre radio va opérer.

730 Je vais maintenant demander à M. Denis Grondin de vous décrire un peu la programmation que nous projetons de réaliser pour notre radio.

731 M. GRONDIN: Madame la Présidente, Madame et Monsieur les Commissaires, il est important d'abord de souligner que ce projet propose une approche globale de programmation qui est différente de ce que font Radio-Canada et les radios communautaires et universitaires existantes dans notre milieu.

732 Nous voulons occuper un créneau de programmation qui est inexistant présentement au sein de la radio francophone à Moncton; celui d'une radio professionnelle, offrant une programmation basée sur la musique populaire grand public, c'est-à-dire opérant un format radiophonique de style succès contemporains ou, comme le consacre la formulation anglophone reconnue dans le milieu, contemporary hit radio, un format radiophonique qui sera en harmonie avec les attentes de la communauté francophone de Moncton.

733 Cette programmation tient compte de tous les groupes d'âges en offrant une variété de musique pop qui s'étend de la ballade au rock, de la musique de danse aux saveurs country rock ou folk rock, et qui puise dans un répertoire provenant des quatre dernières décennies.

734 Pour être plus précis, disons qu'environ 60 pour cent de la programmation proviendra d'enregistrements nouveaux ou récents et 40 pour cent sera composée de succès souvenirs, puisés à même les 40 dernières années.

735 Nous publierons aussi un palmarès hebdomadaire en français, une liste des chansons anglophones et francophones les plus populaires à Moncton.

736 Somme toute, on peut donc dire que dans l'ensemble, la programmation musicale aura un son contemporain enrichi d'une forte proportion de grands succès passés.

737 Parlons maintenant de la musique de langue française. Par exemple, des noms d'artistes francophones canadiens comme Daniel Lavoie, Roch Voisine, Éric Lapointe, Lara Fabian, Beau Dommage, Isabelle Boulay et Kevin Parent, entre autres, figurent abondamment dans notre programmation puisqu'ils sont parmi les artistes canadiens d'expression française les plus populaires en ce moment.

738 Il est entendu que notre programmation donnera aussi une place de choix aux artistes francophones d'origine acadienne et d'ailleurs dans les Maritimes. On pense par exemple à Lina Boudreau, Isabelle Roy, Natasha St-Pier, Suroit, pour ne nommer que ceux-là.

739 Comme vous pouvez le constater, cette programmation de langue française, proportion de 65 pour cent du contenu total, sera donc composée à forte majorité de créations canadiennes.

740 Toutefois, pour compléter notre liste de chansons en français, des noms prestigieux de la francophonie internationale, comme par exemple Francis Cabrel, connus et appréciés des francophones de Moncton, feront aussi partie de notre programmation musicale.

741 En ce qui a trait à la proportion de 35 pour cent de musique vocale de langue anglaise, nous nous proposons entre autres de diffuser des artistes pop internationaux parmi les plus connus.

742 Citons par exemple les Backstreet Boys, les Spice Girls, Elton John, Janet Jackson, U2 et Céline Dion, quelques noms parmi une multitude d'artistes qui sont peut-être moins présents dans les programmations des radios francophones déjà établies dans la région de Moncton, ou encore dont l'écoute n'est possible pour un francophone qu'en syntonisant les fréquences des radios de langue anglaise.

743 Je veux également porter à votre attention que la qualité d'artistes canadiens qui font partie du 35 pour cent de notre contenu musical anglophone est aussi importante pour la communauté francophone, les Bryan Adams, Amanda Marshall, Shania Twain et Alanis Morrissette, sans oublier ceux qui sont plus près de nous, des artistes des Maritimes très connus comme par exemple Kim Stockwood ou Great Big Sea.

744 En lien avec ce sujet, j'aimerais également mentionner que le contenu canadien total de notre programmation dépasse largement les pourcentages requis. Et ceci s'explique du fait que la majorité du 65 pour cent du contenu musical francophone de notre programmation provient de créations et de productions entièrement canadiennes.

745 En plus de soutenir les initiatives de l'Association canadienne des radiodiffuseurs, nous nous engageons au cours de nos cinq premières années d'existence à organiser tous les ans à Moncton un appel aux talents, une compétition amicale ayant pour but de promouvoir les nouveaux créateurs de chansons.

746 Cet événement sera accompagné d'une importante campagne publicitaire qui s'étendra sur quatre semaines, à la fin de l'été.

747 Cet appel aux talents invitera les artistes francophones semi-professionnels de notre région à participer en solo, en duo ou en groupe, sous différentes catégories telles que, mais sans s'y limiter, pop ou rock, country, folk, blues ou traditionnel et musique de détente.

748 Les participants devront proposer des pièces originales et seront évalués par un panel de juges francophones provenant des secteurs de la musique et de la radio.

749 Les finalistes gagneront des prix en espèces ou autre.

750 Nous nous proposons de consacrer 22 000 $ par année à ce projet qui, en plus du budget promotionnel et des 3 000 $ versés à MusicAction, favorisera ainsi le développement des talents francophones de notre partie du pays.

751 Nous nous engageons en outre à animer plusieurs événements destinés à accroître la visibilité des finalistes et des demi-finalistes, que ce soit par le biais d'une émission hebdomadaire vouée à la présentation de ces artistes, ou encore par la promotion des spectacles, concerts ou autre que ces artistes produiront dans notre milieu. Il est donc assuré que les artistes francophones qui participeront à l'appel aux talents bénéficieront d'une plus grande visibilité dans la région de Moncton.

752 Finalement, nous prévoyons qu'au cours des cinq prochaines années, ce concours devrait attirer des centaines de participants et engendrer la création de centaines de nouvelles chansons.

753 L'animation sur nos ondes sera dynamique et enjouée. Nous voulons encourager nos animateurs et animatrices à communiquer dans un bon français, sans pour autant être guindé ou académique.

754 Le plus important pour eux sera d'informer le public sur les chansons et les artistes qui seront diffusés, de faire aussi la promotion d'événements communautaires et d'interagir avec les auditeurs sur nos ondes.

755 Nous offrirons également des segments spéciaux d'émissions consacrées à des profils d'artistes, occasionnellement en lien avec des spectacles importants présentés à Moncton, des heures consacrées aux demandes spéciales des auditeurs et des diffusions de reportages en direct d'événements importants au sein de la communauté.

756 Nous allons aussi développer un concept qui sera tout nouveau à la radio de Moncton, une émission présentée à midi les jours de semaine, et durant laquelle les auditeurs seront invités à s'exprimer sur divers sujets portant sur certaines tendances de société ou de styles de vie. Par exemple, votre mari, blonde, épouse ou copain vous a-t-il abandonné pour Internet?

757 Donc, durant cette émission, les auditeurs s'exprimeront sur les petits travers des gens ordinaires dans la vie de tous les jours et dans la société en général. Nous pensons que ce genre d'émission permettra aux gens de la communauté de se connaître mieux entre eux, mais sur un ton humoristique et sans prétention.

758 Bref, en général, nous voulons un contenu verbal léger et divertissant, tout en étant informatif pour les auditeurs.

759 Des bulletins de nouvelles sur les actualités politiques, sociales, sportives et communautaires seront diffusés à partir d'une salle des nouvelles autonome et opérée par une équipe francophone à 100 pour cent.

760 Des bulletins de nouvelles sont prévus durant l'émission matinale et durant celle du retour à la maison, en plus des matinées de fin de semaine.

761 Nous sommes conscients que l'information dite sérieuse est couverte en profondeur par le service de Radio-Canada et que les radios communautaires ont aussi une part importante de contenu informationnel à offrir à la communauté.

762 Mais notre contribution à la diffusion de bulletins de nouvelles est essentielle à notre vision globale d'une programmation radio et sera ajustée tout spécialement aux besoins de la communauté francophone.

763 De plus, nous croyons aussi qu'il est essentiel d'encourager et de préserver la diversité des sources d'information dans le marché du Grand Moncton.

764 En conclusion, les radios communautaires et commerciales cohabitent très bien ensemble dans toutes les grandes villes canadiennes. Nous croyons donc que cet état de choses peut très bien s'appliquer à une ville en plein essor comme Moncton.

765 Et comme vous le savez, les radios communautaires et universitaires ont un mandat bien précis de programmation, un mandat qui est différent de celui des radios commerciales.

766 Pour résumer en quelques mots, nous proposons donc la création d'une station de radio francophone dynamique, en lien avec sa communauté, construite autour d'une formule musicale populaire grand public et destinée à compléter la diversité qui existe présentement dans les services radiophoniques de langue française de Moncton.

767 M. LOSIER: Au niveau des ressources humaines, nous comptons développer avec l'Université de Moncton un programme de stages pratiques permettant ainsi aux étudiants du Département d'information et communication de travailler dans un environnement de radio commerciale.

768 Nous allons également mettre à la disposition du Département un montant de 2 500 $ par année à être utilisé pour une ou plusieurs bourses pour les étudiants et étudiantes se dirigeant en radiodiffusion.

769 Et justement, nous avons avec nous Mademoiselle Godin qui aimerait faire quelques commentaires.

770 MME GODIN: Madame la Présidente, Madame et Monsieur les Commissaires, bonjour.

771 Mon nom, c'est Lisanne Godin. Comme l'a mentionné M. Losier, donc, je suis déléguée par la direction du Programme d'information et communication.

772 Maintenant, le programme accueillerait favorablement l'attribution d'une bourse de 2 500 $, qui serait répartie selon une politique du programme. C'est certain qu'en considérant la situation financière précaire des étudiants, donc ça va de soi qu'une bourse est toujours la bienvenue.

773 Maintenant, en ce qui concerne le projet de stage coop, les étudiants en information et communication ont la chance d'avoir un taux de placement qui frise le 100 pour cent, donc, après l'obtention du diplôme.

774 Mais pour en arriver là, donc, les étudiants, on est à la recherche d'expérience tout au long de nos études. Donc, beaucoup qui sont à la recherche d'expérience pratique. Et pour ceux qui justement souhaitent se diriger vers ce média-là qui est la radio, donc, le projet de radio commerciale pourrait être intéressant.

775 Maintenant, au niveau des possibilités d'emploi qu'une telle radio pourrait engendrer, si on pense à nos finissants qui travaillent dans le domaine de la radio, que ce soit Radio-Canada ici, à Moncton, ou dans d'autres provinces canadiennes, que ce soit à CIPL à Montréal, CFAI dans le nord, ici, ou différentes radios communautaires, on voit que nos étudiants réussissent à se placer et réussissent.

776 Mais c'est aussi vrai que dans la région ici de Moncton, le marché -- les débouchés en français ne sont pas très nombreux pour les gens qui veulent se diriger en radio et que le -- à ce moment-là, le concept d'une radio commerciale, ça pourrait être sûrement intéressant pour l'intérêt de ceux et celles qui sont portés à vouloir se diriger en radio.

777 C'est entendu que la préoccupation du programme, comme programme professionnel, donc le programme d'information et communication, est toujours ouvert à toutes sortes de possibilités, tout ce qui s'offre en matière d'emploi ou du marché du travail. C'est certain que c'est encourageant pour les étudiants qui sont là, que c'est positif que voir les perspectives d'emploi.

778 M. LOSIER: Merci, Mademoiselle Godin.

779 En ce qui a trait en équité en matière d'emploi, nous sommes très conscients de l'importance d'un programme d'équité en matière d'emploi. Et sur ce point, nous allons suivre la politique actuellement en vigueur chez Maritime Broadcasting.

780 Mais comme PDG d'Assomption Vie, je suis également très conscient --

--- Technical difficulties / problèmes techniques

781 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Un petit moment. C'est pas la première fois que ça arrive. Alors, on s'excuse, parce que je sais que c'est très dérangeant.

782 Merci.

783 M. LOSIER: Après trois fois, c'est supposé d'arrêter.

784 LA PRÉSIDENTE: On sait jamais, mais j'aimerais que vous continuez. Merci.

785 M. LOSIER: Comme PDG d'Assomption Vie, je suis évidemment très conscient de l'importance de cette politique que nous avons d'ailleurs adressée avec beaucoup de succès puisque le Conseil consultatif sur la condition de la femme nous a décerné en 1997 le prix Spiritus parce que nous comptions parmi nos effectifs le plus grand nombre de femmes dans des postes de direction.

786 En ce qui concerne l'impact sur le marché, nous estimons, Madame la Présidente, que la venue d'une station commerciale de langue française aurait un impact minimum sur les stations existantes. Une partie importante des revenus proviendrait de nouveaux budgets publicitaires et la communauté d'affaires n'est pas satisfaite actuellement des choix publicitaires disponibles.

787 En guise de conclusion, nous estimons que notre demande appuie et met en valeur la politique du CRTC concernant les radios commerciales, en soutenant l'industrie francophone du disque au Canada; en permettant aux francophones d'avoir accès à de la musique qui reflète leurs aspirations culturelles; en maintenant une présence de la langue française dans la radiodiffusion par la promotion des artistes francophones et acadiens.

788 De plus, cette radio fournira à la population francophone et bilingue de notre région une voix commerciale de langue française; permettra à la communauté d'affaires locale et régionale de communiquer plus efficacement avec la communauté francophone; augmentera la diversité des nouvelles radiophoniques dans la région de Moncton en réunissant et rapportant les nouvelles dans une perspective francophone locale; fournira un véhicule pour la diffusion d'émissions radiophoniques francophones produites à l'extérieur, notamment du Québec et de la France; élargira la possibilité de diffusion de messages d'intérêt public et fournira un appui supplémentaire aux organisations culturelles, de service public et aux organismes de charité; créera à Moncton une radio commerciale de qualité, inspirée des stations à grand succès de Montréal et Ottawa.

789 Madame la Présidente, Monsieur et Madame les Commissaires, les Acadiens et Acadiennes de cette région ont accès dans leur langue à une université, à un collège communautaire, un grand hôpital, une institution financière, de nombreuses entreprises francophones, des écoles primaires et secondaires et ont également accès à un quotidien de langue française.

790 Le seul maillon manquant à cette équation, c'est un poste de radio commerciale de langue française.

791 La région du Grand Moncton représente la plus grande concentration de population francophone à l'est du Québec non desservie par une station de radio commerciale de langue française.

792 Nous vous soumettons respectueusement notre demande, Madame la Présidente, et nous sommes prêts à répondre à vos questions.

793 Merci.

794 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci, Monsieur Losier.

795 La Conseillère Noël, s'il vous plaît.

796 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Bonjour, Monsieur Losier.

797 M. LOSIER: Bonjour.

798 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Alors, j'ai l'intention de vous poser une série de questions qui vont recouvrir les éléments suivants: le contenu qui va être véhiculé par la station proposée, la nature économique de votre demande, des questions d'ordre technique, et finalement une question ou enfin, je vais vous laisser l'occasion de nous dire pourquoi nous devrions en fait vous accorder la licence. En fait, pourquoi votre demande est la demande qui est la meilleure selon les critères qu'on a développés dans le passé pour les stations de -- ou les demandes de licences à Victoria, à Kelowna et à London.

799 Alors, si on attaque d'abord la question du contenu, dans l'étude Angus Reid qui a été déposée avec votre demande, vous avez -- vous indiquez que vous avez l'intention de diffuser de la programmation constituée de musique et de chansons en majorité de langue française alors que -- et que l'information, quant à elle, porterait sur les nouvelles et événements touchant la communauté francophone.

800 Compte tenu de l'exigence de la Politique sur la radio, laquelle vise à inclure des émissions de création orale qui intéressent directement les collectivités desservies, comme les nouvelles locales, les bulletins de météo locaux, les sports, la promotion d'activités et d'événements, pouvez-vous nous dire plus précisément quel serait le contenu de votre programmation locale et le nombre d'émission, d'heures -- le nombre d'heures d'émissions locales que vous entendez diffuser?

801 M. LOSIER: Je vais demander à M. Grondin de répondre à cette question.

802 M. GRONDIN: En ce qui a trait aux nouvelles, incluant peut-être les sports, la météo, sûrement entre une heure trente et deux heures par semaine seront consacrées à cela.

803 Les messages d'intérêt public pourront être à la fois diffusés en direct par les animateurs, selon les informations qui nous seront transmises par la communauté et pré-enregistrés à l'avance aussi, en ce qui a trait aux messages dont nous aurons eu la connaissance antérieurement.

804 Donc, on peut ajouter à cela un autre -- facilement un autre 30 minutes par semaine de pré-enregistrement et un autre 30 minutes de direct.

805 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Alors, si je comprends bien, vous me parlez d'une heure trente à deux heures de sports et de météo.

806 M. GRONDIN: Actualité.

807 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Actualité, sports et météo.

808 M. GRONDIN: Oui.

809 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Une heure trente à deux heures par semaine.

810 M. GRONDIN: Minimum, oui, c'est ce que nous avons estimé.

811 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Alors, ça fait combien de temps par jour, ça?

812 M. GRONDIN: Bien, des bulletins de nouvelle durant l'émission matinale. Alors, à la raison d'un à l'heure. Ensuite, bulletin au retour à la maison. Alors, disons entre 15h00 et 18h00.

813 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: On parle de bulletins qui sont, de quoi, cinq minutes?

814 M. GRONDIN: Oui, environ quatre minutes.

815 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Quatre minutes?

816 M. GRONDIN: Oui. Et des bulletins en fin de semaine, durant la matinée. Alors, on prévoit trois bulletins le samedi et trois bulletins le dimanche. Le reste étant bien sûr comme je le mentionnais, des interventions en direct et certaines pré-enregistrées.

817 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Alors, ça serait -- ce que vous m'expliquez, ça serait surtout réparti le matin et le soir et durant le reste de la journée, ça serait des messages pré-enregistrés ou des messages d'intérêt public.

818 M. GRONDIN: Pour ce qui est des informations dites les nouvelles suivies de bulletins de sports et de météo, ça se concentre le matin et l'après-midi et le weekend le matin.

819 En ce qui a trait aux autres informations qui sont d'ordre plus communautaires, mais vocaux, ils font partie de la programmation globale à ce moment-là.

820 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Alors, ils vont être répartis dans la journée?

821 M. GRONDIN: Répartis sur toute la programmation.

822 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: D'accord. De quelle façon, pouvez-vous nous dire de quelle façon votre service de programmation se distinguerait des autres services disponibles à Moncton au niveau de la programmation musicale ainsi qu'au niveau des créations orales?

823 M. GRONDIN: Au niveau de la musique, il est certain que notre vision globale est de l'utilisation de la formulation CHR, comme je vous mentionnais au début de mon intervention, implique que nous allons tourner les plus grandes chansons, les plus populaires, les plus connues, dans tous les domaines reliés à la musique populaire.

824 Donc, nous croyons que cet état de choses d'emblée nous distingue des autres services de radio francophone à Moncton.

825 En ce qui a trait aux interventions vocales, nous allons également ajouter des interventions avec les auditeurs et le faire sur un ton aussi humoristique et léger, divertissant. Alors, à ce niveau-là, nous croyons nous distinguer de façon claire des autres sources de diffusion radiophonique francophone.

826 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: À l'exception, ou enfin, en tenant compte des, si vous voulez, des bulletins de nouvelles qui vont être diffusés le matin et la fin de semaine, est-ce que vous allez avoir d'autres émissions de création orale en fin de semaine?

827 M. GRONDIN: Oui, dans le sens que nous prévoyons avoir des thématiques d'émission musicale impliquant naturellement de l'information et du contenu oral pour présenter et expliquer en fait ces émissions spéciales. Ça pourra être des émissions thématiques concernant des époques musicales, des styles musicaux et ainsi de suite.

828 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: On va se tourner vers le développement des talents canadiens.

829 En plus d'adhérer au programme, au plan de l'ACR, de l'Association canadienne des radiodiffuseurs, vous proposez une contribution de 22 000 $ par année reliée à un événement que vous appelez appel aux talents, provenant de la région de Moncton et des comtés avoisinants, de Westmorland et de Kent.

830 Pouvez-vous nous dire comment ce montant de 22 000 $ va être réparti, comment il va être dépensé?

831 M. GRONDIN: Oui. Nous avons prévu 10 000 $ pour la production de soirées durant lesquelles nous allons voir les participants se produire dans un endroit public à Moncton. Donc, ça implique des coûts d'équipement électronique. Nous avons également 1 000 $ pour tout ce qui concerne un peu l'administration, les déplacements, 1 000 $ pour l'imprimerie d'affiches, de posters, peut-être même de tee-shirts promotionnels, et un 10 000 $ pour ce qui est des prix remis en argent ou autres. Le 10 000 $ sera consacré à cela.

832 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Je vous remercie.

833 Maintenant, on va attaquer l'aspect économique de la demande. L'étude de Angus Reid -- attendez un petit peu que je mette la main dessus. Alors, dans l'étude de Angus Reid, on retrouve l'affirmation suivante. C'est que la conversion -- Alors on dit que:

834 Pourriez-vous nous expliquer comment vous en êtes parvenu à la conclusion que votre radio pourrait obtenir 19 pour cent des parts d'écoute dans le marché de Moncton? Comment les résultats de ce sondage ont été convertis pour obtenir 19 pour cent de part d'écoute à Moncton?

835 M. LOSIER: Comme vous aurez noté, Madame la Commissaire, les personnes entre 18 à 34 et 35 à 54 écoutent présentement surtout les radios de langue anglaise. Et je pense que les pourcentages, c'était 44 pour cent CFQM et 27 pour cent CJMO, 23 pour cent pour les 35 à 54 pour CFQM et 19 pour cent CJMO.

836 Alors, il serait normal de s'attendre à aller récupérer de quelques-unes de ces stations-là une part grandissante du marché francophone.

837 Il faut dire que depuis 1981, il n'y a pas eu de radio commerciale francophone ici, à Moncton, et que graduellement, les francophones ont migré vers l'écoute de radio anglophone. Alors, il est tout à fait normal de compter qu'une station, une nouvelle station dans le marché irait récupérer une partie de l'auditoire qui attend avec empressement la venue d'une radio commerciale et qui, comme je l'ai indiqué, ont soit décidé d'abandonner l'écoute de la radio ou tout simplement écouté la radio anglophone.

838 Alors, pour nous, il est évident que 15 à 19 pour cent sur une période évidemment de trois à quatre ans, c'est tout à fait logique et possible. La population francophone de la région ici représente quand même, est bilingue et représente près de 75 000 à 80 000 individus.

839 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Vous dites 75 000 à 80 000 individus --

840 M. LOSIER: Dans la grande région --

841 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: -- et les francophones et les bilingues.

842 M. LOSIER: Oui.

843 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: La population de Moncton est de --

844 M. LOSIER: 118 000.

845 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: 118 000?

846 M. LOSIER: De Moncton, du Grand Moncton. Alors, si j'inclus les francophones du comté de Kent et le reste de Westmorland, on arrive à des chiffres de population de langue maternelle française d'à peu près 70 000. Mais si on ajoute les personnes qui se sont déclarées bilingues, on a pratiquement 80 000 personnes qui se déclarent bilingues, donc qui sont des auditeurs potentiels de cette radio.

847 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: J'essaie de réconcilier tous ces chiffres-là, parce que moi, avec un marché de 118 000.

848 M. LOSIER: 118 000, c'est le Grand Moncton --

849 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: C'est le Grand Moncton seulement.

850 M. LOSIER:  -- qui comprend les villes de Dieppe et de Riverview, et Moncton. Alors, le comté de Westmorland dans lequel se situe la Ville de Moncton, et le comté d'Albert, et le comté de Kent ont également des populations francophones très importantes. L'ensemble de ces trois comtés-là représente près de 80 000 personnes bilingues, dont 70 000 de langue maternelle française.

851 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Ce qui revient à dire qu'il y a plus de la moitié des gens de langue maternelle française qui vivent à l'extérieur du Grand Moncton, dans vos calculs.

852 M. LOSIER: Oui.

853 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: D'accord, parce que si je me fie aux chiffres de Statistique Canada, j'arrive à des proportions un petit peu plus conservatrices.

854 Est-ce que vos prévisions de revenus publicitaires sont basées sur une part d'écoute de 19 pour cent du marché ou si elles sont basées sur autre chose?

855 M. LOSIER: C'est à peu près, un peu plus bas que ça, là, parce que le 19 pour cent évidemment c'est sur une période grandissante. On s'attend pas de capturer 19 pour cent du marché.

856 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Comme diraient les Anglais, c'est un ramp-up.

857 M. LOSIER: Oui, oui, parce qu'il faut dire, comme je le mentionnais tout à l'heure, c'est qu'on a perdu une peu l'habitude d'écouter la musique d'une radio commerciale ici, là. Alors, graduellement, on va aller chercher ces auditeurs-là, mais on prévoit à peu près, pour les fins du bilan financier, à peu près 10 pour cent d'écoute.

858 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Alors, 10 pour cent du marché pour votre vente de publicité.

859 Les sondages BBM de l'automne dernier indiquent que les quatre stations radiophoniques francophones de Moncton obtiennent dans l'ensemble 9 pour cent des parts d'écoute de radio à l'heure actuelle, dans le marché de Moncton. Est-ce que ça vous inquiète vis-à-vis pour vos projections de 19 pour cent? Je compte la SRC là-dedans, la Société Radio-Canada.

860 M. LOSIER: Si ça nous inquiète?

861 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Que ces postes-là qui sont déjà en existence n'ont au total que 9 pour cent des cotes d'écoute?

862 M. LOSIER: Pas plus que ça. Je pense que si on a une radio qui est très différente au niveau de la programmation et qui est dynamique, on va aller aussi chercher nos parts de marché et on fera en sorte que du point de vue marketing, que les gens veulent écouter cette radio-là.

863 Mais non, pas du tout. On est très conscient que ça représente quand même au départ un changement d'habitude. Mais c'est pourquoi on considère très important de commencer et de graduellement monter notre cote d'écoute. Et de ce côté-là, on devrait pas avoir de problèmes.

864 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: On va revenir au potentiel publicitaire. Vous nous avez dit que votre plan était basé non pas sur 19 pour cent, mais sur 10 pour cent de part d'écoute pour votre budget publicitaire.

865 Vous prévoyez générer des revenus de 660 000 $ la première année et 900 000 $ à la cinquième année d'opération. Quel est, selon vous, le potentiel radiophonique du marché de Moncton en général? Et pourriez-vous nous donner une estimation du potentiel publicitaire du marché radiophonique francophone de Moncton en particulier?

866 M. LOSIER: Bien, le pourcentage de population, comme je vous indiquais, est au-delà de 30 pour cent, ici de francophones, les francophones étant concentrés dans une grande partie ici, à Moncton, mais surtout aussi à l'extérieur. On prévoit aller chercher 660 000 $ dont la moitié à peu près de nouveaux budgets publicitaires qui se dégageraient par la venue d'une nouvelle station, 25 pour cent des médias écrits et 25 pour cent à peu près des autres stations de radio.

867 Le marché publicitaire actuel, si je ne m'abuse, est à peu près 6,5 millions $ au total dans la région de Moncton. Alors, on prend 10 pour cent à peu près de celui-là.

868 Il y a une croissance évidemment annuelle prévue. Donc, autour de 10 pour cent du budget publicitaire actuel et croissant nous semble nous apporter près de 900 000 $ après cinq ans.

869 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Vous fondez 50 pour cent de vos revenus sur des nouveaux budgets publicitaires --

870 M. LOSIER: Oui.

871 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: -- c'est-à-dire de l'argent à l'heure actuelle qui n'est pas injectée dans le marché publicitaire --

872 M. LOSIER: C'est ça.

873 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL:  -- à la radio.

874 M. LOSIER: Il faut dire qu'actuellement, l'absence de radio commerciale n'offre pas la possibilité à certaines entreprises de faire de la publicité justement pour attirer la clientèle francophone. Et lorsqu'on a voulu demander l'appui de certains commerces on pourrait dire plutôt anglophones dans la région ici, ils se sont évidemment dits très intéressés à le faire parce que ça leur offrirait une possibilité additionnelle de pouvoir communiquer avec une large partie de leur clientèle potentielle. Actuellement, ils sont obligés d'utiliser soit les panneaux publicitaires ou les journaux.

875 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Je vous remercie.

876 Maintenant, si je vous réfère encore à l'étude d'Angus Reid, et cette fois, on va aller à la page -- woops, j'ai les mains pleines de pouces -- à la page 21, l'étude précise que:

877 Pourriez-vous élaborer un peu plus sur cette question de sondage et sur les résultats obtenus?

878 M. LOSIER: Ça indique justement que les gens ont peut-être perdu en cours de route l'habitude d'écouter de la musique française sur une station commerciale. Et si on parle de juste la région peut-être de Moncton, mais ailleurs, on voit que l'écoute est certainement concentrée sur les stations anglophones.

879 Ça contribué dans une certaine mesure dans le passé à une assimilation quand même importante de la population francophone. Alors, les réactions ne sont pas nécessairement surprenantes de ce côté là. C'est que lorsqu'on regarde effectivement les statistiques beaucoup plus globales, parce que si on se concentre tout simplement au centre-ville de Moncton, on pourrait avoir des difficultés. Les cotes -- la population que l'on prévoit atteindre dépasse largement les cadres de la Ville de Moncton. Alors, ce qui nous renforce beaucoup plus dans notre souci de vouloir offrir une programmation française à une population beaucoup plus large, mais non seulement à Moncton.

880 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Ce matin, vous avez entendu M. Beaudoin de Télémédia qui nous a dit que selon lui, à l'instar de Montréal, Moncton compte deux marchés radiophoniques distincts, le marché anglophone et le marché francophone.

881 Est-ce que vous êtes en accord avec cette proposition-là? Et si oui, pourquoi?

882 M. LOSIER: Je suis pratiquement obligé de répondre, Madame la Commissaire, par un oui et un non parce que c'est vrai qu'il y a deux communautés, mais le marché publicitaire s'adresse à l'ensemble de la population.

883 Le marché francophone est quand même assez distinct, mais il y a des entreprises évidemment qui veulent avoir une part de marché. Que ce soit anglophone ou francophone, peu importe.

884 Jusqu'à maintenant, beaucoup d'entreprises ont dû utiliser les radios anglophones pour essayer de faire une publicité. Mais le fait que l'auditoire de ces radios anglophones n'est pas exclusivement composé de francophones, évidemment, ou une partie assez petite dans chacune des radios anglophones, le fait d'utiliser ces radios-là pour de la publicité est un peu inefficace parce qu'ils doivent diviser à ce moment-là leur revenus publicitaires dans trois ou quatre stations de radio.

885 Alors, il est un peu différent, oui. Mais de l'autre côté, le marché francophone représente à lui seul une opportunité quand même extraordinaire pour ces entreprises-là.

886 Alors, je dis oui et non en tenant compte qu'il y a une partie importante de la clientèle potentielle de plusieurs de nos commerces qui n'est pas actuellement développée.

887 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Je vous remercie.

888 Maintenant, on va aller, on va examiner un peu l'impact que votre demande, si elle était accueillie favorablement, pourrait avoir sur le marché existant, le marché radiophonique existant.

889 Alors, je vais d'abord vous poser la question en regard de Radio Beauséjour, c'est-à-dire CJSE FM, et ensuite sur Les Médias Acadiens, qui est la radio universitaire, la radio communautaire universitaire, CKUM FM.

890 Ces deux stations francophones, leurs opérations dépendent en partie des revenus publicitaires qu'elles génèrent dans le marché de Moncton. À votre avis, quel serait l'impact de l'arrivée de votre station sur ces deux stations francophones?

891 M. LOSIER: Bien, Madame la Commissaire, comme le prévoit la politique du CRTC sur les radios communautaires, je pense que les mandats sont d'abord très différents, les styles sont différents, et je crois que dans le cas de CJSE, la clientèle actuelle de CJSE n'est pas nécessairement celle que l'on convoiterait en entier. Et si on tient compte du fait qu'un auditeur de radio écoute en moyenne deux à deux et demi stations par semaine, il va sans dire qu'il va y avoir un transfert un peu d'auditeurs vers notre radio, c'est sûr, mais ça ne veut pas dire qu'on va récupérer à 100 pour cent les auditeurs de cette radio-là. Ça va ajouter une voix de plus dans le marché, permettant ainsi aux francophones d'écouter une autre station et un autre genre de musique.

892 Mais les radios communautaires en général, parce qu'elles sont de nature disons sans profit, offrent moins de, comment on peut dire, middle of the road genre de musique que les stations commerciales. Et à ce moment-là, je ne crois pas qu'un impact sur ces radios-là soit extrêmement important.

893 En ce qui concerne la radio de l'Université, la clientèle évidemment est concentrée en grande partie dans la communauté universitaire. Les revenus de publicité, à ce que j'ai vu, sont de 70 000 $ par année. Donc, sur des revenus totaux de 6,6 millions $ pour la grande région de Moncton, ça représente quand même une partie très peu importante de l'assiette globale de revenus publicitaires.

894 Alors, l'impact sur ces radios-là, à mon avis, est minime.

895 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Par contre, les revenus de Radio Beauséjour sont quand même assez importants, les revenus publicitaires de Radio Beauséjour.

896 M. LOSIER: Oui.

897 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Est-ce que vous avez établi ou est-ce que vous avez calculé quel pourcentage de vos revenus publicitaires seraient générés au détriment de Radio Beauséjour, par exemple?

898 M. LOSIER: Pas de Radio Beauséjour comme tel, mais comme je le mentionnais tout à l'heure, 50 pour cent proviendrait de nouveaux revenus publicitaires, 25 pour cent des stations existantes, y inclus les stations anglophones. Alors, de ce 25 pour cent-là qui représente 150 000 $, finalement sur 600 000 $, s'il y a 10 pour cent qui vient des radios, de la radio communautaire ou 20 pour cent, à mon avis, c'est au grand maximum parce qu'on va aller chercher aussi des revenus publicitaires des deux autres radios anglophones.

899 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Contrairement au Québec, le Nouveau-Brunswick, c'est bien connu, est une province bilingue, et c'est également le cas de Moncton. Alors, puisque les auditeurs de Moncton sont majoritairement bilingues, on peut s'attendre à ce qu'ils syntonisent également des radios francophones et anglophones. Quel serait l'impact de votre station sur l'écoute des stations anglophones existantes? Est-ce que vous avez mesuré cet impact-là?

900 M. LOSIER: Non, on n'a pas fait de mesures tout à fait précises, mais on se rend compte évidemment qu'il y a un manque de diversité et il y a un manque de choix. Il n'y a pas de doute que notre radio, on peut aller chercher des auditeurs francophones de ces radios anglophones parce que depuis 1981, on a par la force des choses été obligé d'écouter les choix musicaux que l'on voulait par l'entremise des radios anglophones. Donc, on va aller récupérer une partie de ces auditeurs-là, mais rien qui devrait empêcher ces radios de subir des dommages économiques importants.

901 Alors, ces auditeurs-là -- je les connais ici pour y vivre -- ce sont des gens qui vont aller d'une radio à l'autre aussi, parce qu'aucune station actuellement ne répond à leur choix musical.

902 Alors, oui, on va aller récupérer de ces gens-là qui écoutent à la fois CKCW et C103 et Magic. Aucun doute.

903 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Maintenant, on va attaquer votre plan d'affaires, si vous voulez bien. Attaquer, sans instinct belliqueux.

904 Quand on regarde votre demande, on constate que vous n'avez pas prévu de dépenses préopératoires, c'est-à-dire que vous n'avez pas prévu de plan de mise en marché. Alors, pouvez-vous nous expliquer comment vous allez faire connaître votre station?

905 M. LOSIER: Bien, aussitôt que la licence sera possiblement approuvée, on va conduire, aller rencontrer certainement premièrement les annonceurs potentiels. On vit dans la région. On connaît ceux et celles qui peuvent utiliser une radio. Alors, il y aura certaines activités prévues dans ce sens-là, mais rien qui vont engendrer des dépenses extraordinaires.

906 On va graduellement faire des rencontres avec certains groupes de gens d'affaires, des réceptions pour faire valoir l'importance d'annoncer sur les ondes de cette nouvelle radio et graduellement bâtir un petit peu nos contacts d'affaires qu'on a pas mal développés déjà. Alors, il n'y aura pas énormément de dépenses préopératoires, le tout devant se faire dans peut-être les dernières semaines juste avant le lancement de la radio. Mais il y aura beaucoup de contacts informels avec la communauté d'affaires de la grande région de Moncton.

907 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Maintenant, je voudrais vous poser une question à savoir quel serait -- vous savez que le Conseil a reçu plusieurs demandes dans le cadre de l'audience que nous avons aujourd'hui pour des stations FM à Moncton. Les demandes ne visent pas toutes les mêmes fréquences. Il est donc possible que si le marché le permet, le Conseil octroie plus qu'une licence.

908 Je voudrais d'abord savoir ce que vous pensez de cette possibilité-là, et ensuite, je voudrais savoir si le Conseil approuvait votre demande et une autre demande pour un service anglophone, quelle incidence ça aurait sur votre plan d'affaires, c'est-à-dire que si on avait deux nouvelles stations dans le marché?

909 M. LOSIER: Je pense que ça pourrait créer certaines difficultés, Madame la Commissaire, parce que justement -- et je reviens sur cette situation-là. Depuis 1981, nous n'avons pas eu l'occasion d'écouter ici, à Moncton, une radio commerciale de langue française. Donc, nos auditeurs ont migré vers ces stations-là. Une nouvelle station de langue française devrait avoir quelques années de développement pour permettre une certaine stabilité financière parce qu'au début, on ne va pas avoir tous les auditeurs. C'est impossible. Graduellement, les gens vont venir à notre radio.

910 Si on doit licencer une autre station anglophone, on ajoute un élément de difficultés potentielles à notre station. Le marché publicitaire étant ce qu'il est, évidemment, ça veut dire que la tarte devra être divisée avec un joueur de plus.

911 Je crois que du côté anglophone, on est très bien desservi. Du côté francophone, on a besoin d'avoir une certaine période pour faire notre envolée et nous permettre d'aller chercher à la fois des auditeurs, d'aller chercher des revenus publicitaires, de faire la promotion nécessaire auprès des francophones et des jeunes francophones de façon à ce qu'ils soient conscients que la radio de qualité que l'on veut opérer va pouvoir de plus en plus répondre à leurs besoins.

912 Alors, c'est ça notre position et je crois que pour l'instant, on devrait licencer une nouvelle station de radio de langue française à Moncton.

913 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: C'est clair.

914 Maintenant, vous nous avez fourni des documents suite aux lettres de déficience. Je voudrais juste que vous nous rappeliez brièvement quelles sont les relations qui vous lient avec Maritime Broadcasting, nous les décrire, afin qu'on s'assure qu'il n'y a pas de contrôle effectif de la part de Maritime Broadcasting.

915 Vous détenez, ou votre société de gestion détient 51 pour cent de la station proposée alors que la société mère de Maritime va détenir un autre 49 pour cent. Vous disposez de la majorité des sièges au conseil d'administration de la licenciée proposée.

916 Maintenant, je voudrais que vous nous décriviez plus en détail quels impacts pourraient avoir par exemple le bail et l'entente de service proposés avec Maritime compte tenu du fait que vous êtes à 49-51, c'est très près, et est-ce qu'il y a des ententes entre actionnaires qui donneraient un certain pouvoir additionnel à Maritime qui ne sont pas prévus normalement?

917 M. LOSIER: Non. L'entente avec Maritime Broadcasting représente l'actionnariat à 49 pour cent. C'est un partenaire financier. Et ils auront une personne sur le conseil d'administration, dont 33 pour cent des pouvoirs de décision. À moi et Bernard Imbeault appartiendront à ce moment-là 66 pour cent, soit les deux-tiers des pouvoirs de décision.

918 L'entente est une entente, un bail de location tout simplement parce que l'édifice où abrite actuellement Maritime Broadcasting, c'est un édifice qui a été bâti de toute pièce pour une station de radio. Alors, l'insonorisation des murs est déjà faite. Tout le côté électrique est déjà là. Les studios sont déjà là, et ce qui nous permet d'épargner quand même plusieurs de dizaines de milliers de dollars dès le départ, parce qu'on n'a pas besoin de faire énormément de travaux à l'intérieur. Les studios sont prêts, comme je le mentionnais, les salles de nouvelles, les studios d'enregistrement, l'insonorisation des murs.

919 Et la seule chose que l'on partage avec eux, c'est le poste de réceptionniste pour la simple et bonne raison qu'il y a un standard téléphonique à l'intérieur, et un seul, et qui est dirigé vers l'entrée. Et à ce moment-là, on aura une réceptionniste qui sera partagée entre Maritime Broadcasting et la société que je représente. Et c'est tout.

920 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Avec votre propre ligne de --

921 M. LOSIER: Oui.

922 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Votre propre numéro de téléphone.

923 M. LOSIER: Absolument.

924 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Maintenant, Monsieur Losier, je pense que je n'ai plus qu'une question technique à vous poser avant de vous donner la chance de nous résumer et de nous dire pourquoi vous êtes les meilleurs, à votre point de vue.

925 Alors, question technique. Votre demande est concurrente avec celle de Radio Beauséjour pour l'utilisation de la fréquence 99,9 mégahertz, soit le canal 260 de Moncton. À votre connaissance, est-ce qu'il y a d'autres fréquences disponibles équivalentes à la fréquence 99,9 mégahertz vous permettant d'obtenir ou d'atteindre les mêmes objectifs de desserte que vous recherchez? Voilà.

926 Et dans un deuxième temps, je vous demanderais si la fréquence 99,9 mégahertz n'était pas disponible, seriez-vous disposé à réviser vos paramètres techniques afin de diffuser votre station par exemple sur une fréquence AM ou une fréquence FM de classe inférieure?

927 M. LOSIER: Certainement pas sur une fréquence AM. Mais comme vous pourrez apprécier, je ne suis pas nécessairement très versé dans le côté technique. Alors, je vais demander à notre ingénieur conseil de bien vouloir répondre à cette question.

928 M. SAWYER: Bonjour, Madame.

929 Comme j'avais dit ce matin --

930 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Monsieur Losier, si vous pourriez fermer votre micro, ça va éviter l'interférence. Merci.

931 M. SAWYER: Comme j'avais dit ce matin, c'est vraiment important de trouver une fréquence qui impacte le plan FM de l'Industrie Canada le moins.

932 M. Losier m'a engagé à la suggestion de Maritime Broadcasting, et après j'ai complété le bref technique. À la suite de cela, j'ai utilisé une fréquence avec juste un petit brouillage qui peut arriver si une station allouée à Middleton était utilisée aux paramètres maximals.

933 Ça, c'est le deuxième choix, mais je n'avais pas le choix d'utiliser la même fréquence que Maritime Broadcasting. Comme ça, ça reste pas beaucoup avec un petit impact du plan d'Industrie Canada.

934 Mais comme j'avais dit ce matin, je peux faire une autre étude pour trouver quelque chose d'autre.

935 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Je vous remercie, Monsieur Sawyer.

936 Alors, Monsieur Losier, moi, je n'ai pas d'autres questions précises, sinon que de vous donner le mot de la fin et vous demander en regard des critères développés par le Conseil suite aux audiences portant sur les marchés de Victoria, de Kelowna et de London, pourriez-vous nous dire pourquoi, selon vous -- alors, quels seraient, selon vous, les critères sur lesquels le Conseil devrait se pencher pour vous octroyer une nouvelle licence FM dans le marché de Moncton? Comment vous rencontrez ces critères et en quoi vous jugez que votre demande est la meilleure et que nous devrions vous l'accorder?

937 M. LOSIER: Je crois que notre demande ajoute évidemment à la diversité du milieu par une programmation originale et de langue française qui va répondre à un besoin exprimé maintes et maintes fois par la communauté francophone.

938 Nous avons, au niveau des initiatives de développement des talents près de 25 000 $ qui seront utilisés pour faire la promotion de nos artistes francophones. Et je peux vous assurer une chose. Dans les 10 dernières années ici, il y a eu vraiment une effusion, un développement incroyable de la communauté artistique, mais il faut trouver un moyen de faire connaître ces gens-là, de pouvoir leur permettre d'enregistrer des CD et de se faire connaître à l'extérieur.

939 Donc, notre initiative de développement des talents canadiens va répondre à une partie de ces besoins-là.

940 L'initiative avec l'Université de Moncton, ça permet de voir que notre communauté veut bien s'ancrer dans le milieu de Moncton en favorisant un échange entre l'Université de Moncton, les jeunes qui se dirigent vers la radiodiffusion et tout en leur permettant des opportunités d'emploi additionnelles.

941 Au niveau de renforcer le développement de l'industrie musicale canadienne, je crois que là aussi, si on fait connaître à travers notre initiative de développement des talents pendant les cinq prochaines années une centaine de nouveaux artistes, bien évidemment que ça aura un impact sur tout le développement de l'industrie de la musique à la fois en Atlantique mais également ailleurs au Canada.

942 Alors, les possibilités d'emplois additionnelles que ça offre, la solidité de notre plan financier je pense nous permettent de considérer cette application comme étant un bénéfice additionnel à la région de Moncton, mais en particulier pour les francophones, les quelque 70 000 francophones qui impatiemment attendent la venue d'une nouvelle radio commerciale.

943 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Je vous remercie, Monsieur Losier.

944 Peut-être juste une petite précision, et je suis à la page 10 du document que vous nous avez remis cet après-midi.

945 J'essaie juste de réconcilier deux choses qui me chicotent. Vous parlez du développement des talents canadiens et vous dites que vous allez consacrer 22 000 $, et ça, sur une période de sept ans pour l'appel aux talents.

946 Mais ensuite, à la fin du paragraphe, juste avant le paragraphe 4, vous dites:

948 Alors, je ne sais pas, est-ce que c'est cinq ans ou c'est sept ans?

949 M. LOSIER: Non, c'est que si la licence -- on voulait pas présumer que la licence nous serait octroyée pour sept ans. Alors, si la licence nous était octroyée pour sept ans, nous aurions le même engagement de 25 000 $ par année pour toute la période.

950 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Et vous vous engageriez par condition de licence --

951 M. LOSIER: Absolument.

952 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL:  -- pour la période de sept ans?

953 M. LOSIER: Oui.

954 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Je vous remercie, Monsieur Losier. J'ai pas d'autre question.

955 Est-ce que --

956 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci, Madame Noël.

957 Le Conseiller Cardozo, s'il vous plaît.

958 CONSEILLER CARDOZO: Merci, Madame la Présidente.

959 Monsieur Losier, j'ai seulement une question sur le sujet de l'expérience. Vous avez un grand projet ici, et quand je regarde votre curriculum vitae, vous avez beaucoup d'expérience dans les affaires, dans la politique, dans le gouvernement, et cetera.

960 Mais j'aimerais avoir un peu d'information sur votre équipe dans le domaine de radiodiffusion, spécifiquement dans les domaines de programmation, la programmation musicale, qui va choisir la musique, et cetera? Dans le domaine de la production de programmation verbale, pour organiser les entrevues, les journalistes, les nouvelles, et cetera, avez-vous une équipe avec l'expérience de radiodiffusion?

961 M. LOSIER: Merci, Monsieur le Commissaire.

962 C'est que évidemment, on n'a pas fait d'embauche parce qu'on n'a pas encore de licence, mais déjà, à l'annonce de ce projet, nous avons reçu quand même plusieurs curriculum vitae de personnes qui ont l'expérience au niveau de la programmation, qui sont actuellement directeur de programmation ailleurs. Et certains annonceurs aussi qui ont travaillé soit comme stagiaires dans certaines radios et qui voudraient bien avoir la chance de travailler à plein temps.

963 Alors, je ne peux pas vous dire oui, on a déjà choisi noter personnel, mais nous avons en main déjà les C.V. de plusieurs personnes qui sont très intéressées à joindre notre équipe. Et on devrait être en mesure, avec les talents disponibles dans la région, de pouvoir profiter ou bénéficier de l'expérience de d'autres personnes au niveau programmation, au niveau ventes, c'est pas un problème, au niveau des annonceurs. Je pense qu'il y a quand même, avec la contribution de l'Université de Moncton à ce secteur-là depuis quelques années, la disponibilité des employés qui feront partie de notre station.

964 CONSEILLER CARDOZO: Vous avez parlé avec le Conseiller Noël sur le sujet de votre entente avec Maritime Broadcasting. Avez-vous une entente avec cette corporation pour des aides dans la chose --

965 M. LOSIER: Non.

966 CONSEILLER CARDOZO: -- de radiodiffusion?

967 M. LOSIER: Absolument pas. Notre station aura sa propre salle de nouvelles, son propre directeur de la programmation et son propre directeur de la station. Et au niveau de la programmation, il n'y a absolument aucune entente et il n'y aura pas d'entente dans le futur avec Maritime Broadcasting à ce niveau-là. C'est une station de radio de langue anglaise. Nous voulons opérer une station de radio de langue française et l'expertise de Maritime Broadcasting, ça sera au niveau affaires, comme conseiller sur le bureau de direction, mais tout simplement dans l'opération commerciale d'une radio privée. Point.

968 CONSEILLER CARDOZO: Merci, Monsieur. Merci, Madame la Présidente.

969 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci.

970 Conseiller juridique, s'il vous plaît.

971 M. McCALLUM: Merci.

972 Encore avec Maritime Broadcasting, est-ce que vous allez par exemple entreprendre des ventes conjointes avec les gens de Maritime Broadcasting?

973 M. LOSIER: Absolument pas. Nous avons -- nous aurons, Monsieur le Conseiller, notre propre force de vente. Et je pense qu'on a prévu trois employés qui s'occuperont de la vente mais qui seront complètement distincts, séparés de l'opération de Maritime Broadcasting.

974 M. McCALLUM: Donc, il n'y a pas d'employés en commun avec Maritime Broadcasting.

975 M. LOSIER: Absolument pas.

976 M. McCALLUM: Ni personne engagé --

977 M. LOSIER: Pas du tout.

978 M. McCALLUM: Donc, si le Conseil, dans sa sagesse, voulait imposer une condition de licence à l'effet que les opérations soient distinctes, ça irait?

979 M. LOSIER: Nous souhaiterions cette entente, Monsieur le Conseiller.

980 Et si je peux ajouter là-dessus, l'édifice en question, on va -- on va tout simplement faire un mur à l'entrée de façon à permettre la division de l'édifice en deux parties égales. Un côté francophone, un côté anglophone. Et ça sera encore plus simple.

981 M. McCALLUM: Merci.

982 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Ça va être la muraille de Moncton.

--- Laughter / Rires

983 M. McCALLUM: À la page 11 de votre présentation, vous parliez d'une émission présentée à midi. Est-ce que ce serait une émission à ligne ouverte?

984 M. GRONDIN: Pas dans le sens traditionnel. Ça serait une émission de divertissement qui impliquerait la diffusion de pièces musicales et une interaction entre l'animateur ou l'animatrice avec les auditeurs qui voudraient s'exprimer sur un thème donné.

985 M. McCALLUM: En ce qui implique une interaction avec les auditeurs, est-ce que la programmation, l'émission serait conforme aux lignes directrices concernant les lignes ouvertes? Je réfère à l'avis public 88-213, par exemple.

986 M. GRONDIN: Euh, si je comprends bien votre question, non, parce que ce ne serait pas une émission de ligne ouverte en tant que telle. Ça serait une émission à contenu divers, impliquant une interaction téléphonique divertissante, si je peux m'exprimer ainsi, avec l'auditoire.

987 Donc, j'espère que ça répond à votre question.

988 M. McCALLUM: Oui, il y a un espèce de code d'éthique qui s'applique lorsqu'il y a une espèce d'interaction avec les auditeurs qui vise une relation respectueuse entre --

989 M. GRONDIN: Oui, ce code d'éthique-là sera respecté. Ça, je peux vous l'assurer. Ce sera fait avec bon goût.

990 M. McCALLUM: Très bien.

991 Les deux heures par semaine aux créations orales, est-ce que ça inclut l'émission du midi dont vous parliez à cette page-là?

992 M. GRONDIN: Non, Monsieur le Conseiller.

993 M. McCALLUM: Donc, cette émission, c'est en plus des deux heures de création orale?

994 M. GRONDIN: Effectivement, oui.

995 M. McCALLUM: Donc, c'est une -- est-ce que ça devrait être compté dans les émissions de création orale ou musicale ou moitié-moitié?

996 M. GRONDIN: Ce sont -- il y a une portion de cette émission qui sera peut-être, pourrait être considérée comme création orale, effectivement, mais nous ne l'avions pas comptabilisée en ce sens.

997 M. McCALLUM: Vous l'avez comptabilisé en effet dans vos programmes musicales, en effet.

998 M. GRONDIN: Effectivement, mais nous ne l'avons pas considérée comme faisant partie des nouvelles, sports, météo, messages d'intérêt public et communautaires. Nous l'avons calculé à part.

999 M. McCALLUM: Merci.

1000 M. GRONDIN: Merci.

1001 M. McCALLUM: Tout à l'heure vous avez ventilé, je pense, votre contribution de 22 000 $ annuellement et il y avait une partie de 10 000 $ que vous avez qualifiée comme organisation de la soirée. Je pense que la soirée appels aux talents, est-ce que vous pouvez dire en quoi consiste ce 10 000 $?

1002 M. GRONDIN: Nous projetons organiser des soirées dans un endroit public de Moncton pour permettre aux participants à l'appel aux talents de se produire devant public et devant un jury. Cela implique donc des coûts divers, incluant surtout en majeure partie même des coûts de location d'équipement technique, de diffusion de spectacle tout simplement, système de son, console, microphones, haut-parleurs et ainsi de suite.

1003 Et nous avons projeté un budget de 10 000 $ qui couvrirait ces dépenses et les dépenses qui pourraient survenir dans l'imprévu de l'organisation de ces soirées.

1004 M. McCALLUM: Donc, c'est notamment pour la location des équipements.

1005 M. GRONDIN: En majeure partie, avec une portion qui est allouée disons pour se protéger contre d'éventuels coûts imprévus.

1006 M. McCALLUM: Mais vous ne pouvez pas fournir plus de détails comment ces dépenses seront réparties. C'est global dans le 10 000 $ que vous dites.

1007 M. GRONDIN: Oui, bien c'est ça. Écoutez, nous avons ce montant-là pour organiser ces soirées. C'est certain que comme je vous le dis, le coût d'opération et de location d'équipement sera très important. Ceux intéressés par le projet pourraient venir nous rencontrer et nous aurons peut-être des coûts pour les recevoir de nourriture ou de boisson. C'est à cela que je faisais allusion tantôt.

1008 M. McCALLUM: Merci.

1009 M. GRONDIN: Merci.

1010 M. McCALLUM: Au niveau technique, quand on vous a demandé si la fréquence n'était pas ouverte pour un motif ou autre, et si vous seriez prêt à changer vos paramètres techniques, je pense que vous avez répondu qu'une fréquence AM ne convient pas. C'est ça?

1011 M. GRONDIN: Oui.

1012 M. McCALLUM: Si vous deviez vous changer les paramètres sur une autre fréquence FM, vous feriez ça, j'imagine, si c'était nécessaire à cause de ça?

1013 M. LOSIER: Si c'était imposé, évidemment, il faudrait regarder à cette question-là, oui.

1014 M. McCALLUM: Est-ce que ça affecterait le plan et les budgets?

1015 M. LOSIER: Il faudrait voir qu'est-ce qui est disponible, et là encore, je vais demander à mon ingénieur de pouvoir peut-être répondre plus précisément à cette question-là.

1016 M. SAWYER: Naturellement, s'il y a un changement, il faut étudier ça à ce moment. On ne peut pas dire si ça va coûter plus ou moins, mais on est préparé de faire une étude.

1017 M. McCALLUM: Mais vous accepteriez la licence, même si ça impliquait une fréquence FM de classe inférieure, j'imagine?

1018 M. LOSIER: Je crois qu'il faudrait faire l'analyse à ce moment-là et de refaire un peu le plan d'affaires et de voir l'impact potentiel de ce changement-là. Mais en autant que ce soit une licence, une fréquence FM, nous serions prêts à envisager cette possibilité-là et de faire les études appropriées.

1019 M. McCALLUM: Merci.

1020 Parlant pour un instant sur le projet avec l'Université de Moncton, vous avez parlé je pense des bourses d'études de 2 500 $ par an.

1021 Est-ce que ça, c'est un projet nouveau à ça?

1022 M. LOSIER: Pas vraiment. C'est qu'on a toujours cru qu'il y aurait une certaine relation entre notre radio et le Département d'information et communication parce que ce département-là a quand même une certaine renommée, existe depuis un bon bout de temps et on s'est dit que c'était une contribution additionnelle que notre radio pouvait faire à la communauté universitaire.

1023 Maintenant, on laisse le choix au département de décider si ça sera une bourse de 2 500 $, deux bourses de 1 250 $ chaque ou cinq bourses de 500 $. On leur laisse l'entière disponibilité, mais on croyait que c'était un geste qui nous permettait au moins d'encourager les étudiants à se diriger en radiodiffusion, parce que c'est pas tous les étudiants du département qui se dirigent en radiodiffusion. Et ça nous assure en même temps dans les années à venir des gens qui auront une expérience pratique dans notre radio et qui pourront par la suite peut-être trouver des occasions d'emploi.

1024 M. McCALLUM: Est-ce que cette dépense est comprise dans votre budget?

1025 M. LOSIER: Oui.

1026 M. McCALLUM: Je me réfère par exemple au schéma 9, activités financières, le tableau qui est là, et je veux savoir sur quelle ligne je trouverais le 2 500 $, dépenses d'exploitation?

1027 M. LOSIER: Dépenses d'exploitation et dépenses d'administration. Je ne crois pas qu'il y ait une rubrique identifiée bourses dans le rapport financier, mais dans les dépenses d'administration ou d'exploitation, on fera en sorte de trouver 2 500 $ par année pour accorder au Département d'information et communication.

1028 M. McCALLUM: Donc, vous trouverez ça à même les dépenses d'administration générale, par exemple la première année, 198 $, 1 000 $? C'est à partir de là que vous trouverez le budget pour ça?

1029 M. LOSIER: Je crois que c'est effectivement à cette rubrique-là qu'on avait prévu l'inclure, mais -- oui, possiblement.

1030 M. McCALLUM: C'est là où ça serait?

1031 M. LOSIER: On n'a pas fait de poste précis de 2 500 $. On pensait pouvoir l'inclure dans nos dépenses d'administration à chaque année de pouvoir accorder cette bourse-là.

1032 M. McCALLUM: Également, il y avait une question posée sur les dépenses préopérationnelles et vous avez je pense répondu à cette question. Mais ma question à moi, c'est où ça se trouve les budgets pour les dépenses préopérationnelles?

1033 M. LOSIER: Non, il n'y a pas de -- dans le bilan que vous voyez là, la première année d'exploitation, c'est-à-dire on pense commencer à l'automne. Évidemment, si on a la licence au mois de juin, il va falloir envisager qu'il y ait une partie des dépenses qui seront engagées au cours des sept, huit prochains mois, il va falloir en utiliser peut-être dans le mois précédant le lancement officiel de la radio. Il va falloir prendre une partie de ces fonds-là pour faire comme je disais les réceptions de lancement, les réunions avec la communauté d'affaires, les rencontres avec les gens qui vont acheter la publicité. Et à ce moment-là, on prévoit pas que ça représentera un très gros montant. Mais pour les deux ou trois premiers mois d'opération, il s'agira de peut-être mieux répartir, prendre une partie du budget pour tout simplement identifier les dépenses au niveau lancement ou prélancement de la radio.

1034 M. McCALLUM: Et ça se trouverait à quel poste?

1035 M. LOSIER: Il n'y a pas de poste précis sur les dépenses préopérationnelles. Comme je mentionnais, c'est que si on a la licence au mois de juin, le studio étant pratiquement prêt et tout ça, on prévoit qu'à l'automne, octobre, novembre, on devrait être en mesure de lancer. À ce moment-là, il faudra peut-être avancer de quelques semaines certaines dépenses de façon à nous permettre de réaliser les activités entourant le lancement de la radio. Mais on n'a pas identifié de poste précis comme dépense préopératoire.

1036 Encore là, on pourra les inclure dans les dépenses d'exploitation et il s'agira de les ramener deux ou trois semaines avant le début officiel du lancement de la radio.

1037 M. McCALLUM: Et à combien estimez -- pour une estimation de ces dépenses, à combien?

1038 M. LOSIER: Ce n'est pas nécessairement de grosses dépenses, comme je mentionnais. Ce sont quelques réceptions, quelques tournées auprès des gens d'affaires. On va commencer à embaucher nos gens qui vont s'occuper de publicité ou de ventes. Alors, à ce moment-là, ces gens-là vont -- on va peut-être mettre un 5 000 $, 10 000 $ de dépenses préopération qui pourrait être utilisé à ce moment-là dans le mois qui mènera au lancement officiel.

1039 M. McCALLUM: Et vous avez prévu utiliser ces dépenses à même ce que vous avez prévu et pas additionnel, c'est ça?

1040 M. LOSIER: Pas de dépenses additionnelles, non.

1041 M. McCALLUM: Merci.

1042 Merci, Madame la Présidente.

1043 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci.

1044 Monsieur Losier, il y a juste une autre couple de clarifications.

1045 Vous avez parlé souvent dans votre présentation et les réponses à la conseillère Noël que vous allez chercher les francophones et les auditeurs bilingues à l'extérieur de Moncton, Westmorland, Kent et Albert, je pense.

1046 Mais en répondant à la question sur la fréquence, vous semblez être à l'aise avec une autre fréquence. Est-ce que cette possibilité d'avoir une autre fréquence changerait pas l'impact de ce plan d'affaires d'aller chercher les auditeurs bilingues et francophones à l'extérieur?

1047 M. LOSIER: Oui, et c'est pourquoi, Madame la Présidente, il faudrait effectivement faire l'étude. Je ne me suis pas compromis à une autre fréquence parce que si on était sur une fréquence beaucoup moins forte, évidemment, ça aurait un impact possiblement sur le plan d'affaires.

1048 Mais il faudrait l'analyser et de voir si on pourrait toujours opérer une radio de façon profitable, avec une fréquence plus faible.

1049 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Maintenant, juste un autre point. Vous avez dit que concernant les stations de langue anglaise existantes que vous pouvez aller chercher les auditeurs francophones de ces stations, mais il n'y aura aucun impact sur la part d'écoute. Vous proposez d'aller chercher les auditoires à 19 pour cent, c'est-à-dire que vous comptez d'aller chercher un auditoire francophone et bilingue qui va venir d'où exactement? Les stations existantes francophones? Les stations existantes anglophones? Parce que comme Madame Noël a souligné, c'est une prévision optimiste disons et en même temps, vous dites que vous n'aurez pas d'impact sur ces stations existantes. J'essaie de mettre ces deux morceaux ensemble.

1050 M. LOSIER: Il y aura évidemment les gens qui vont revenir à la radio, qui vont représenter quand même une partie je pense quand même importante de l'auditoire parce qu'il y a des personnes qui ont abandonné, qui sont peut-être en train d'écouter les CD ou la musique sur Internet ou sur la télévision digitale ou autre qui vont revenir avec une nouvelle station ici, à Moncton. Donc ça, c'est une possibilité.

1051 Eh oui, on va aller chercher des auditeurs des autres stations anglophones. Il n'y a pas aucun doute dans mon esprit.

1052 À savoir si ça aura un impact financier, je crois que les radios anglophones actuellement opèrent de façon rentable et la partie des francophones qui vont délaisser leur radio ne sera pas nécessairement permanente non plus parce que l'habitude ayant été créée, ils vont revenir et aller vers ces stations là continuellement.

1053 On espère qu'en bout de ligne, après six mois, un an, un an et demi, que ces gens-là vont de plus en plus migrer de façon importante vers notre radio.

1054 La population anglophone de la région est quand même suffisamment importante pour pouvoir subir une perte de cinq, 10 pour cent de leur auditoire sans aucun problème.

1055 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci, Monsieur Losier.

1056 On se reverra pendant la prochaine étape de cette audience.

1057 M. LOSIER: Merci.

1058 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Je vous remercie énormément, et toute votre équipe aussi.

1059 Madame la Secrétaire, je pense que vous avez une annonce concernant l'ordre du jour?

1060 I think Madam Secretary has an announcement regarding the agenda.

1061 MS MacDONALD: Thank you, Madam Chair.

1062 Yes, we have an adjustment to the order of appearance. The application by Mr. James Houssen will be appearing this afternoon rather than tomorrow morning. Tomorrow morning, we will then proceed with the regular schedule, starting with Radio Beauséjour, Atlantic Stereo, and finally, International Harvesters.

1063 Thank you.

1064 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Madam Secretary.

1065 Therefore, we will take now a 15-minute break and reconvene at 3:15.

1066 Nous reprenons à 3:15.

--- Recess at 1500 / Suspension à 1500

--- Upon resuming at 1515 / Reprise à 1515

1067 MS MacDONALD: The next applicant is an application by James Houssen, on behalf of a company to be incorporated under the name of Houssen Broadcasting Ltd., for a broadcasting licence to carry on an English-language low power FM radio programming undertaking at Moncton. The new station would operate on frequency 100.9 megahertz, channel 265LP, with an effective radiated power of 50 watts.

1068 The applicant is proposing a Christian music format.

1069 Appearing for the applicant are Mr. James Houssen and Mr. Don Kervin.

1070 Go ahead, please. Thank you.

1071 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Whenever you are ready.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

1072 MR. KERVIN: Madam Chair and distinguished members of the Panel, we just want to thank you for this opportunity today to come at a short notice to present this before you.

1073 My name is Don Kervin, and Jim is the President of the company. Jim Houssen is President of Houssen Holdings, James Houssen Productions and also Auracom Moncton Internet Services.

1074 Jim has an extensive technical background in technology including television production, cellular and satellite communications, as well as most aspects of Internet services. Jim has been part of large theatrical productions, for example, the technical director of a large theatrical production with a cast of thousands and starring Pat Boone. Jim will hold the position of station manager.

1075 Darr Houssen, who is not able to be here today with us due to the short notice, will be a partner as well as Jim's wife. Darr has also been production manager and technical director for the past five years of the largest Living Christmas Tree Production in Eastern Canada. She has been involved with the yearly production for 15 years and approximately 10,000 people have seen this production yearly. Some of the best well-known musicians and artists from the Christian sector have performed there.

1076 Darr is also continually active with other large productions and has been and will be produced in the Moncton area. This success can be measured at many levels. One of which is where the Living Christmas Tree Production has been approached by a well-known television producer at an estimated budget of $400,000 for world-wide commercial distribution. This will be filtered directly into the creative arts community of New Brunswick. Darr will hold the position of remote production manager.

1077 My name again is Don Kervin. I'm business consultant and advisor for Jim.

1078 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Kervin. I just wanted to underline that we are grateful that you could come today instead of tomorrow. We appreciate that very much.

1079 MR. KERVIN: Thank you very much.

1080 At this time, I'd like to turn it over to Jim to cover some other aspects and any questions.

1081 MR. HOUSSEN: As per the request from the Commission, we will not try to repeat those items that have been dealt with within the contents of our application. It is understood that the Commission has already studied this application.

1082 Rather, I would like to amplify those highlights as well as any new details that have been made available to us and would strengthen the application.

1083 Our changes in financial strength. Although our initial application emphasized a strong financial position to underwrite the operating cost of a Christian radio station, this financial position has since been additionally solidified as we have acquired an Internet service provider franchise named Auracom Internet Services. The franchise is a division of a larger Canadian and United States based dial-up Internet service provider, with multiple Internet franchise services numbering approximately 800 across the United States and Canada.

1084 The already profitable revenues generated from this Moncton franchise have been designated towards the operating costs of the new Christian radio station. Auracom, Moncton Internet Services is a five year-old Moncton based profitable company that was purchased primarily to assist in the operating cost of this radio station.

1085 Also made available from the acquisition is additional office space and studio space for the new station. This location is at 1222 Main Street, the CN Plaza Office Tower, which is the same office building noted within our original application.

1086 There are some minor changes in the studio's technical position, as indicated in our application, which is that the automation software has become extremely affordable with numerous start-up companies offering inexpensive software solutions that make it more economical to purchase the software rather than develop it, as was our original intent.

1087 For this reason, we will be purchasing the automation software from a third party. Our related company James Houssen Productions presently owns and will supply all other software and hardware for studio post production.

1088 The promotion of Canadian talent. As a musician personally, I welcome the opportunity to promote Atlantic Canadian talent channelled through this new radio station, as well as the simulcast of these talents to the world marketplace with the use of the Internet. Auracom, being an Internet service provider, as well as being owned by the applicant, would make this a very simple transition.

1089 Most musicians and musical artists within the Christian community have not had the opportunities to excel their chosen artistic careers. As well, this radio station will attract spin-off activities from additional concerts and CD sales.

1090 Darr will play an active role in creating and broadcasting Canadian talent performances that would be held on a regular basis.

1091 Our youth is our primary target audience. This is to promote a positive message to the youth of our communities with a musical sound that they in their youthful position demand, this along with positive messages in the musical lyrics.

1092 For the most part, musical selections will be chosen by a cross-section of youth coming from a balanced choice of Christian denominations. These young adults will be under the supervision of their youth leaders or community leaders as they play a major role in musical selections, and of course all within the CRTC regulatory policies.

1093 Our secondary audience will be block musical programs that will be produced for the other audiences within the different age groups as well as their musical preferences.

1094 CHRI Radio FM, 99.1 FM in Ottawa have agreed to become our advisor and our mentor. Musically and technically, we will be using CHRI in Ottawa as a mentor. Bob DuBroy and his staff have agreed to act in an advisory position in order to help us get on a correct path towards success in providing this new radio service.

1095 Our primary goal. A desperately-needed community service rather than financial success drive this application. For this reason the station will be operated with minimal financial requirements in order to grow within its means which are provided first by personal, as well as corporate holdings than by unsolicited corporate and/or personal commitments.

1096 In conclusion, a Christian music radio station is a badly-needed service that is endorsed by strong community leaders. Some have made that very evident by welcoming the opportunity to be on our advisory board, as indicated in our application. This can only be a positive, uplifting service to this community that will assist in the motivation of young adults to retain or return to some of the values that our community and our country was founded on.

1097 I encourage the Commission to approve this application as I thank you in advance for all positive considerations and would be pleased to answer any questions that the Commission may have.

1098 Thank you.

1099 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

1100 Commissioner Cardozo, please.

1101 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you, Madam Chair.

1102 Welcome, Mr. Houssen, and thanks very much for the presentation, and again, if I can repeat the Chair's appreciation for your coming this afternoon.

1103 MR. HOUSSEN: Thank you.

1104 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: What I will do is take you through two areas. And you're right, as you identified at the beginning of your comments, we'll talk more about things that -- we'll talk more about issues where we want more information. And if there are issues we don't cover, it's because we're quite satisfied with the information we have from you on the record, and this is really an opportunity to complete the record as much as possible and to give you a chance to explain anything you think would assist your application, assist our decision.

1105 So these are the six areas I'll take you through, starting with programming and volunteers. And we'll talk about your board of advisors; marketing and public support; market share; financial plans and competition in the Moncton market.

1106 MR. HOUSSEN: I'm sorry. Could you repeat that?

1107 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Market share, financial plans, and then competition in the Moncton market. Then, I'll ask you a closing question at the end.

1108 Let me start then with some of the issues you covered in your supplementary brief, which I found quite interesting. One of the key points you lead off with was the youth-oriented nature of the service you'd like to have. And you mentioned some of the artists, that you'd be looking at people like Amy Grant, Patra and Michael W. Smith. And I'm wondering if you feel that there is enough Christian music of interest to young people around in general, and is there enough Canadian?

1109 MR. HOUSSEN: The question is first, to answer the first part of your question, yes there is definitely enough Christian music around.

1110 The second part of your question is an unknown, is there enough Canadian? But stations like what we propose will create more of that Canadian talent that can go to CDs or send us samples of their music that we can use for airplay.

1111 As well, we are in a unique position where we're not going into a marketplace where a Top 40 has already been established within the Christian music spectrum of this area because there is none out there. Nobody has heard it except for perhaps the church youth who buy it in stores and will make some requests in that area.

1112 So we'll have a unique opportunity to promote Canadian talent in the initial stages and establish that Canadian sound within the community, without having to come up against competitive requests of music in this area.

1113 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I don't doubt that there's enough Christian music around. I'm wondering youth oriented Christian music.

1114 MR. HOUSSEN: Oh, absolutely. As a matter of fact, if you listened -- you could listen to a typical Christian radio station's playing the contemporary Christian rock and unless you're listening real close, you won't even know for sure if you're listening to a -- you'd think you're listening to a normal rock oriented station.

1115 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Oh, this is normal, too.

1116 MR. HOUSSEN: Ah, yes it is normal.

1117 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: This is normal, too.

1118 MR. HOUSSEN: But I'm saying a conventional maybe is a better choice of words.

1119 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Yes, okay. And how would you define Christian? I'm thinking of, for example, Debra Cox who's a new, very successful R&B singer out of Toronto, I believe, and is making it on the charts in the States as well. And she herself -- I've been reading quite -- there have been quite a lot of articles on her of late. She herself is very much a dedicated Christian.

1120 Now, some of her songs you may find have more of a spiritual content than others. Are you looking for a spiritual content?

1121 MR. HOUSSEN: We're looking for positive messages to the youth. This is the primary target, and within the Christian umbrella of music, the messages are positive.

1122 You mentioned Debra Cox and I have no qualms about admitting that I wouldn't know if I heard her music or not because I am of the older generation. I'm interesting in serving the youth of the community who know the music, and that's why we'll be using people in those age groups and people that understand it, like their youth leaders, the kind of music to be chosen within your CRTC regulatory policies.

1123 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay, so that brings me to my next question about the role of volunteers and how you will be doing this.

1124 You're looking at an entirely volunteer-run operation.

1125 MR. HOUSSEN: I'm sorry.

1126 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Sorry, let me get this mike a bit closer. You're looking at an operation that will be run entirely by volunteers, I take it?

1127 MR. HOUSSEN: Yes, we are. We do have plans that we would like to have a full-time, paid station manager. But this is not part of the immediate plans. We want to be able to budget this within existing finances without having to worry about where the money's going to come from next year. We know where the money is going to come from now.

1128 If you also look at our application, there is I believe an eight-tier progress method of airplay, number one being the very cheapest or inexpensive to operate, which is automation, which we want to be able to work up the tier to where we can actually have live, on-air concerts of Canadian talent. And if we have any problems with obtaining volunteers, we just have to go back down a step. We'll always be in a position to be able to provide 24 hours of music, but without ever having to actually depend upon a volunteer that may or may not be available at the time.

1129 Volunteers can be a little tricky. They're not always dependable and it will take some time to build up a dependable group of volunteers that we can count on on a regular basis.

1130 I expect in the initial stages that there'll be a little bit of turnover.

1131 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So let's say you get your licence and you launch on September the 1st. Who is going to be running the station those first few days?

1132 MR. HOUSSEN: At this very moment, I have staff under my Internet company, which is in the same -- occupying the same office space who are very technical. And they will be the back-up support staff which are paid by Auracom Internet Services. And they are quite aware of this and are quite comfortable and looking forward to the challenge.

1133 My intention will be prior to September the 1st is have everything put into place, if we're using this date as a start-up date, have everything put into place and opening concerts and just go all out and get things rolling and stay with it that way.

1134 But I am not going to try and fool myself. I want to be prepared for the worst scenario in every aspect, and I think that and I feel comfortable that that is being -- it is being approached in that manner so that the station is going to operate 24 hours a day with quality music, whether it be partially automated and partially live. I am not quick to go on air with on-air personalities in the initial stages until everybody gets their feet warm. Anyway, it's mostly going to be recorded programming which would be played.

1135 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And is it you who would be like the station manager?

1136 MR. HOUSSEN: Initially, I'll be the station manager, in the interim, as I'm looking for someone to take over that position, and which would report directly to me.

1137 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay, so then you or that person over a longer period of time would be involved in training volunteers and that type of activity?

1138 MR. HOUSSEN: That's correct. Well, myself and a team of other people that have shown strong interest, who have technical backgrounds, who want to work with me.

1139 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. And who would be responsible for keeping logger tapes? This is what some people might call the curse of a radio station, but it's quite important to us that one keeps logger tapes primarily if there are complaints, we need to be able to go back and listen to them.

1140 MR. HOUSSEN: Now, I understand there was a -- we were going to do it like some of them do it, using the regular eight-hour hi-fi videotape systems on an automation system that rotate every 24 hours, which is the simplest way to do it. But I've been given some indication from the CRTC that there are some policies being considered that we can do this on a hard drive using different technology. I don't know if that's ever been approved or not, but we'll do whatever is required at the time. But if it the case, it would be a lot simpler of course to put a 20-gig hard drive on a computer and let this thing record it continually.

1141 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. I'll let Counsel carry on that part of the discussion but I think in terms of -- just so that --

1142 MR. HOUSSEN: I'm sorry. Maybe I didn't answer your question about the automation portion. I don't want to leave it standing, because you asked me who is going to do it. Whoever is in the building at the time will be responsible. And initially, it will either be the volunteer staff that are working in the radio station, or it will be the manager that is presently working for me, running Auracom.

1143 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Yes, and you would be the one responsible for making sure that it --

1144 MR. HOUSSEN: Oh yes, absolutely. I will be an on-hands person, you can be sure.

1145 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And a number of stations do have a back-up system, maybe a hi-fi and a computerized system, because the problem is if your system fails, and that happens to be the week when we audit you, it's not a good -- or it happens to be the week when there's a complaint, in which case we would know about it, then --

1146 MR. HOUSSEN: Fortunately, it's very easy to put a computerized back-up system using MP3 technology and a large hard drive. We're talking about less than a thousand dollars.

1147 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Now, you said that most of your programming will be music and some of it would be live programming. Would that be spoken word?

1148 MR. HOUSSEN: No, we will have no spoken word whatsoever. That's just not -- I personally do not want to do this. I want 24 hours of Christian music or Christian artistic talents being played over the air.

1149 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Or would you have somebody announcing the names of the song or the artist type of thing, or just straight, straight music?

1150 MR. HOUSSEN: No, it's not fair to the artist not to announce their names, in my opinion. The programming is all going to be laid out so that whether it be automated or otherwise, the artist will get credit for the music that they are playing.

1151 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. So you're not looking at open line shows.

1152 MR. HOUSSEN: Absolutely not.

1153 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Let's talk about your board of advisers. What would be the mandate of this board?

1154 MR. HOUSSEN: Dr. Buckingham is one of the -- as an example, is the head pastor of one of the largest churches in the area and he's extremely well respected. Dr. Ralph Richardson is the President of the Atlantic Baptist University, which is a fairly large university here, in the Moncton area, and Joan Calpine is Deputy Mayor of the City of Moncton and they all want to see the positive aspects of music going to our kids.

1155 The main reason to have a strong board of advisors is so that I don't in error make a decision based on personal opinion that would affect the operation or the musical content of the radio station.

1156 I will not be making any decisions in any areas by myself. I will be presenting them to the board if there is any new ideas or things that I think would be a good idea and allow them to advise me in the direction. I will be following their advice very seriously.

1157 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: But this isn't a board in the sense of a board of directors.

1158 MR. HOUSSEN: No, it's an advisory board.

1159 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So it's an advisor to you.

1160 I noticed the four people you've got here in your supplementary brief, you talked about people from all denominations, Catholics and Protestants, et cetera. Were you -- have you talked to people? I'm looking at your list. So you've got here I guess one who would be Catholic and two who would be Protestant, is that right?

1161 MR. HOUSSEN: That would be correct. You see, I come from a different background. I was born and raised a Catholic and my roots are still there. And as I indicated in my application, I married a Baptist lady and I now go to a Wesleyan church. But I'm not motivated by what church I go to. I'm motivated by where I can be of most use. It just so happens that with the Wesleyan church being as large as they are and innovative as they are, we get involved. We don't sit on the pew and keep it warm. You have to be doing something positive. I happen to be a musician and I enjoy playing the guitar with this large church as part of an orchestra, or what they call a praise and worship band.

1162 I also am a sound person. I'm very technical around sound systems.

1163 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I noticed you're a former disk jockey.

1164 MR. HOUSSEN: That's right. I wouldn't go back there, though. Those were my younger days and I ended up owning a discotheque and operating one, and I lost my shirt. And it probably was the best thing that ever happened to me because I'd hate to think that I would still be within that industry. I'm not taking anything away from the individuals that might be in the industry. It's just not -- that's not where my head is at. It wasn't at the time, but because I'm so much involved with technology that I designed a 20,000 computerized light show in 1978 for this, including holograms and lasers and you name it. I got caught up with the excitement of it.

1165 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: These are the four individuals who would be on the advisory board.

1166 MR. HOUSSEN: Yes. Now, the youth pastor for the Catholic church I have to get back to them because there have been some changes, but we will definitely have somebody from a strong position within the Catholic church. And you can be very, very sure of that, as my roots are still there.

1167 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I noticed that individual currently covers Catholic and youth, and that was in my next question was whether you were looking -- you mentioned earlier about having youth involved because of the focus of the station and who you would hear from in music and so forth. Is that an important part of somebody on the board who would have youth --

1168 MR. HOUSSEN: Yes, it --

1169 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: -- who would either be a young person themselves or --

1170 MR. HOUSSEN: Well, the youth directors are community leaders of boys and girls clubs or any of these people that are working with the youth on a day-to-day basis I believe have to be involved, have to be part of the decision-making process at some time.

1171 The people that are on my advisory board are probably more in my age group, but they come from experiences and they will probably appoint people for me to talk to in reference to their youth leaders and the requirements of their youth.

1172 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: The board will exist for the seven years of a licence if you were to be given a licence?

1173 MR. HOUSSEN: I will always have an advisory board and I see no reason why these wouldn't change, other than other circumstances. But if one does leave, or has to leave for transfer reasons or otherwise, they will be replaced with somebody that is in a similar position or in an influential position in their category. In other words, there will never be five Catholics on the board, or five Protestants.

1174 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I was thinking more that maybe Reverend Buckingham might be tired of being a DJ after five years or something. He might want out.

1175 MR. HOUSSEN: I don't think he'll actually play the music.

1176 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay.

1177 MR. HOUSSEN: Like I say, he's very innovative, but he admits quite openly that he doesn't like 90 per cent of the music that he approves.

1178 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Let me ask you about the support that has been established, or that you have demonstrated for your application. There is a list attached to your supplementary brief, and it appears, I believe it was pages 12 to 14 in our record. But essentially, I just wanted to ask you about this. There's about three pages of names and numbers and at the top it says:

1179 My question to you is whether they are supportive of a Christian radio station, or are they supportive of your particular application?

1180 MR. HOUSSEN: No, they would be in support of a Christian radio station, something that is badly needed in the area. And I'm in support of a Christian radio station as well, regardless quite frankly who gets the licence.

1181 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay.

1182 MR. HOUSSEN: Maybe you'll approve both.

1183 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I will come to that in a few minutes.

1184 I also noticed you filed a number of e-mails that you've received, and they appear in our record. The paginations are pages 46 to 69 of e-mail messages you had received, and that's the same sort of response that you've had. Is that correct? People e-mailing back and saying they support --

1185 MR. HOUSSEN: That is correct. We had one particular person who requested that e-mails be sent. And actually, we are in a bit of a Bible belt here, as we have the Atlantic Baptist University with a lot of young people that go there that are just crying for this kind of music to be made available to them.

1186 And quite frankly, I strongly believe that in order to continue to provide the correct teachings and the correct -- what's the word I'm looking for? Role models perhaps is the word, for these young people, that a radio station is going to add to that.

1187 I'm a very, very strong believer in the fact that when I was a young person, I had no problem whatsoever walking into the door of a church. And today, there's no such thing. They're all locked. And I'd like to see us go back to some of our basic values. We've had a lot of changes in our society in the last 40 years where the respect isn't quite as there as it should be, where 40 years ago, we would have never thought that some of the things that would happen in small communities could happen like they do in larger communities. They've infiltrated themselves in these communities and there is no way you can go out there and start picketing or trying to combat it directly and say this is wrong because 40 years has proven that can't be done. The only thing you can do is go out there and try to meet some of these negative messages with positive messages and hopefully, if you do it in a way that young people -- in the area of music where people want to hear their sound, give them positive things to hear rather than the negative ones. At least, we're doing something.

1188 This is not a financial, profitable thing for me. It's going to cost me money. One of the things, being from -- a discotheque owner, there's times in our life as we grow older, when we're younger, we're more interested in our physical appearance and our presentations among other people, the opposite sex and how we come across to them. Then, we got older and we get married and then we get involved with commitments, financial commitments and who's going to have the swimming pool or the car or the biggest car or whatever it is. Then we get to another stage. Now, I'm 55 years old and now we want to serve. And I think we all will get there where we want to do something for somebody else. It's to serve. And this is what I look at right now is this has nothing to do with money, financial or otherwise. It's just to be able to serve the community and give the young people something that's positive so that things don't get worse, that I can just do a little bit more to try to help them get a little bit better.

1189 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Can I take you one step further down that discussion and just -- if I think about what you're looking for, whether it's from a social perspective or dealing with social issues, of whether it's serving the students at the Bible College, does a purely music station, albeit a Christian music station, get to where you want to go, or do you also need to have some spoken word where you can address these social issues? And where my question is leading, if you were given this licence in terms of it being a music station, would you want to be coming back in a while for an amendment to that licence whereby you could also have spoken word?

1190 MR. HOUSSEN: No, I don't see that happening. If I ever came back for an amendment, it would probably be a new licence for another community. I have created a Web site on the Internet called RadioChristian.com and at the moment, it is serving other potential applicants across Canada to help answer some of the questions that I don't have and they may not have because they're farther down the line than I am relative to this. I personally see myself as getting this radio station going and turning into a little bit of a flagship by helping other people get the same.

1191 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: On the issue of the Internet service, as an ISP, do you see some kind of joined work between your Internet service and your radio service? Do you see synergies whereby there may be joint programming or complementary -- call it programming between the two?

1192 MR. HOUSSEN: I can see exporting a lot of Canadian talent through the Internet as bandwidth gets broader and wider so that people can hear music in the same quality that they're listening to on their CD players, and that's not that far away either.

1193 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: But what I'm thinking is you haven't thought about having for example music on the radio with complementary music and/or alphanumeric or other kinds of verbal stuff?

1194 MR. HOUSSEN: There will be no verbal --

1195 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: On the Internet side.

1196 MR. HOUSSEN: NO. It will be a text form. It'll be mostly -- the music will be there and they can buy the CDs. This is what, as you can --

1197 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So you're not looking at content that would complement the radio.

1198 MR. HOUSSEN: It'll complement each other, but it will not contradict. In other words, there will be nothing in the Internet that will be contradicting anything that we're talking about right now.

1199 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I understand that.

1200 MR. HOUSSEN: As a matter of fact, something that's not in the application, immediately upon approval, somebody will be hired by Auracom to develop the Web site and they'll be maintaining it on a full-time basis, which will be the CD shopping cart system. So it will actually create a job.

1201 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So you're looking at your Internet side more as a sales avenue as opposed to a content avenue.

1202 MR. HOUSSEN: Not everybody will agree with me on this, but I've been around this technology, the Internet, since day one, probably one of the first 50 in the province of New Brunswick that actually had an Internet access. Real audio, as this is being transmitted right now across the Internet, is not there yet for streaming audio. You could advertise. I could create the real audio site, but it's really just a complement to the radio station itself by putting it on the air. It's not going to create a thousand listeners. We'd be lucky if we get 50 to 100 at one time. Radio is still a radio.

1203 At some time in the future, and I would say five to 10 years, I agree that the Internet will play an important part, and even less because time moves very fast. Even some of the things in our application, which we're talking about the technical aspects of this application, was filed a year ago, December 1998. And I look at this now and I would rewrite it in reference to Internet use because it's gone that far and that fast.

1204 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Yes. What I'm asking is really in a sense going to be on the application here and the things that we deal with.

1205 MR. HOUSSEN: Perhaps I'm not answering the question that you're asking. I'm sorry if I'm not.

1206 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. What I'm asking you is not -- it's related to the application but it's not contingent on our decision. I'm just wondering where your plans are in the Internet. As somebody who's got experience in this area, I just want to get some of your thoughts about how Internet service and Internet content can be complementary to radio content and whether the kinds of social issues you may deal with or anything else, is there any of that material you thought about using the Internet for --

1207 MR. HOUSSEN: Actually --

1208 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  -- as opposed to just for the purpose of selling CDs and that kind of thing.

1209 MR. HOUSSEN: No, actually it was just to play the real audio part of the radio as well as have pointers to the actual CDs that are available --

1210 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay.

1211 MR. HOUSSEN:  -- and create e-commerce shopping cart system for Canadian talent. That was the only place I've taken this.

1212 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay.

1213 MR. HOUSSEN: To actually say that I won't think of something else a year from now, I haven't given it much thought.

1214 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Well, it's a technology that's evolving very rapidly, so I'm sure you will have other thoughts --

1215 MR. HOUSSEN: Oh, I will, yes.

1216 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  -- a year from now.

1217 Let me ask you about the poll you refer to in your application that was done for Ottawa by Global Television, which talked about the interests in I guess Christian music. I just wanted to clarify. This was done for Ottawa, the Ottawa market, is it?

1218 MR. HOUSSEN: That's correct.

1219 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And so what is the extrapolation that you draw from that? Or why would you extrapolate from the Ottawa market?

1220 MR. HOUSSEN: Somebody else did the stats, and I expected it would probably be well balanced for what is happening in the rest of the country. And if not probably a little bit stronger in this part of the country as it isn't -- in this Moncton area would not be let's say a provincial or federal type city, like Fredericton. Fredericton would be closer to a -- what I would think an Ottawa market.

1221 I believe we probably would have higher numbers that would go towards Christian music in this city, being surrounded by for instance the Atlantic Baptist University and other universities which are close by, which are related to religious training.

1222 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Your market shares, you've suggested, would start off at about four per cent in year one and be up to about 10 per cent in the year six and seven. I'm wondering if you see that as realistic given that that sort of puts you in the top two or three or four in any market, especially here?

1223 MR. HOUSSEN: Well, if it's not being realistic, I can assure you that we've been extremely careful financially to make sure that we're not depending upon those figures.

1224 The best I could do to come up with those figures was to ask questions to others that may be able to guide me in a direction. I'd like to think that the radio station is not going to be Mickey Mouse, just going to be professionally done, even though it's going to be done at a very, very low budget.

1225 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: On your budget, you've indicated what your income, your projected revenue is, and primarily they come from concerts and CDs, which would be about two-thirds, and the other third would be from donations, church and private donations.

1226 What if you fall short of that in a serious way? You're looking at a projection of an annual revenue of $7,500. If you came up with half of that instead, how would you manage?

1227 MR. HOUSSEN: Actually, I could financially support and underwrite the whole thing if I had to. I'd like to see it eventually start to support itself. It's not a great deal of money and it certainly is within my means. The dollars and cents that are involved there, of course, the goal will be to see it stand on its own two feet.

1228 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: At this point, you're fairly confident that things like the concerts and CD sales would get you in the range of $5,000 a year?

1229 MR. HOUSSEN: Oh, that's a small amount. I'm very confident in that area. And especially if you knew my wife who can't be here today because of the short notice, and wanted to be, you'd understand.

1230 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Well, we might meet her at one of subsequent phases of this hearing.

1231 Let me turn to one of the subjects you mentioned earlier, which was licencing one or both of the applications for a Christian music station. Do you think your business case stands up if we were to licence you and International Harvesters?

1232 MR. HOUSSEN: I'm so glad you asked that, because I would have tried to figure out a way to bring it up myself.

1233 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Well, you sort of did and I took you off that path for a minute, but we're back on it. So here you go.

1234 MR. HOUSSEN: Let's take a look at that. You know, we're talking about Christian music and because of the fact that we're talking about a Christian radio station, it's been categorized all by itself. But the reality of it is there are lots of different kinds of music and Christian radio stations.

1235 In our particular case, we like to lead towards the youth and play their kind of music and concentrate on the youth. And if we take a look at the radio stations that are in most marketplaces, you have a country station and you have a rock station. And they're not really competing for the same audience. In our particular case, we have a -- I would like to have a contemporary Christian rock station is what it really is.

1236 By having a second block of programming as I indicated in the application, by myself, our station by ourselves would have to find a way to service that other marketplace who will be on the phone every second day wondering why we're not playing any of the older hymns. And the reality is we'd have to become all in one.

1237 I highly recommend and welcome that both be licenced. This would make the job a lot easier and go to another step. I personally would offer any services I could technically to help the other person get their station off the ground as well.

1238 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay, so just to get you on the record on this, you don't think that this would affect your business case?

1239 MR. HOUSSEN: No a bit. As a matter of fact, I welcome it.

1240 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I hear you.

1241 I had a question with regards to the comparison between the two, if for any reason we thought there was a need to licence one as to both, and I'm just wondering what you see are the similarities and differences, and I take it that the differences you see are that you would be a rock-oriented station, targeted to a younger audience, and theirs would be more hymn oriented, targeted to an older?

1242 MR. HOUSSEN: The word hymn might be a little strong because that really goes older. But if any of you are familiar with what they call praise and worship music, this has got a lively beat to it, but it actually would cater to the established Christian community and they would like to have some entertaining music for themselves as well. And one station alone would have to cater to that, as well as the youth who are not necessarily coming from a strong Christian background.

1243 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. Lastly, then, let me just ask you to summarize your case, both anything you said in your introduction as well as in the question and answer session, are there issues you feel that you'd like to repeat or highlight or answers you'd like to give us for questions which I might have forgotten to ask?

1244 MR. HOUSSEN: Quite frankly, I'm very glad that you used the -- you've made me very comfortable in your line of questioning and I managed to explain some things I didn't think I'd have an opportunity to explain, especially this last thing related to the two radio station possibilities, and I thank you very much for this.

1245 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Well, thank you.

1246 Thank you, Madam Chair.

1247 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

1248 Counsel?

1249 MR. McCALLUM: If you were granted this licence, I think you have provided in your financial projections that you would give $3,000 per year to FACTOR, or Canadian Talent Development commitments. Is that right?

1250 MR. HOUSSEN: That is correct.

1251 MR. McCALLUM: Is it a straight cash donation to FACTOR each year?

1252 MR. HOUSSEN: Although I'm not completely familiar with all the regulatory factors that come with FACTOR -- a play on words -- I have no problem with that, making a straight cash donation, if that's the best way to handle it.

1253 MR. McCALLUM: You haven't discussed it with them, or you haven't earmarked any amount, or anything like that?

1254 MR. HOUSSEN: No, I haven't.

1255 MR. McCALLUM: Okay. But basically, the intention is to factor each year.

1256 MR. HOUSSEN: Yes.

1257 MR. McCALLUM: One thing I wasn't quite sure I understood, and maybe you can clarify it. You've said that I think in your application this would be a non-profit type organization. But the way you've incorporated your company, it looks like it's a company incorporated with a view to making profits. In other words, it's not incorporated as a non-profit company or a charitable company with the ability to give tax receipts, for example.

1258 Can you explain how you decided to incorporate your company the way you did?

1259 MR. HOUSSEN: It's not a non-profit organization because my particular talents do not lie in any sort of fund-raising projects. My talents lie in business methods of running -- of making money. Even though it is non-profit, there will be a goal to turn this into a profit-making position at some time in the future. At least, we aim that way. The money may all go back into the promotion of the radio station, but you've got to aim towards having actual cash come in. The idea is make this self-supporting and make it a little bit more and so we can put it back into the radio station.

1260 But as far as me personally ever looking at taking any dollars out of that, that will never happen.

1261 MR. McCALLUM: So it is incorporated as a for-profit undertaking, then?

1262 MR. HOUSSEN: That's correct.

1263 MR. McCALLUM: Would you be able to say if you have a loss the first year, would you be able to take like a tax loss for your ISP business, for example?

1264 MR. HOUSSEN: I never thought of that, but I imagine that technically that would be available to me.

1265 MR. McCALLUM: Similarly, if you have a loss the first year, do you have the ability to take funds from your ISP business and put it into this broadcasting business to ensure --

1266 MR. HOUSSEN: Absolutely.

1267 MR. McCALLUM:  -- its continued operation?

1268 MR. HOUSSEN: Absolutely.

1269 MR. McCALLUM: You have total control over --

1270 MR. HOUSSEN: I have total control over that.

1271 MR. McCALLUM: Over both entities, in effect?

1272 MR. HOUSSEN: That's correct.

1273 For the record, Auracom is a profitable company. It was bought as a profitable company a year ago, January actually of 1999, and has increased in its profit picture by 67 per cent.

1274 MR. McCALLUM: The Houssen ISP company bought the Auracom company?

1275 MR. HOUSSEN: No, it's a separate. It's not owned by Houssen Holdings. It's owned by myself as a separate company.

1276 MR. McCALLUM: Oh, I see. So you hold both of those separately.

1277 MR. HOUSSEN: They're not tied in together, no.

1278 MR. McCALLUM: And Auracom you own 100 per cent of it yourself?

1279 MR. HOUSSEN: That's correct.

1280 MR. McCALLUM: Okay. And vis-à-vis the logger tapes, all I wanted to get on the record of course is that it is extremely important to the Commission, and I think what's important is your commitment that you will do what is required to ensure that there are logger tapes.

1281 MR. HOUSSEN: I have absolutely no hesitation in that area whatsoever and understand 100 per cent how important it is.

1282 MR. McCALLUM: And just on the survey, or the poll that was conducted for the Ottawa and Global Television that you mentioned in your application, that was done for the CHRI application?

1283 MR. HOUSSEN: That is correct.

1284 MR. McCALLUM: And so that was done a few years ago, then, for CHRI.

1285 MR. HOUSSEN: CHRI I believe now they were licenced for one year when I picked up the application -- when I picked up those statistics.

1286 MR. McCALLUM: And how were you able to sort of extrapolate those results for the Moncton market?

1287 MR. HOUSSEN: There is no study to my record that is similar to that done for the Moncton market. CHRI are, as you are aware, a 60,000-watt station, which they had probably the finances to go out and do that kind of a survey at the time, or had them made available to them.

1288 I can't say with preciseness that this is exact to this market area, but I would feel very comfortable that it would be somewhere in that vicinity.

1289 MR. McCALLUM: Thank you.

1290 Thank you, Madam Chair.

1291 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, gentlemen, and we'll be seeing you again in the next stage of the process.

1292 MR. HOUSSEN: Thank you very much.

1293 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

1294 Madam Secretary, does that conclude our business for the day?

1295 MS MacDONALD: Yes, Madam Chairman. That does conclude the session for today. We will start tomorrow morning with the Radio Beauséjour, followed by the Atlantic Stereo application, and finally the International Harvesters.

1296 Thank you.

1297 THE CHAIRPERSON: And I believe we will be also doing intervention by applicants tomorrow?

1298 MS MacDONALD: That is correct. Towards the end of the day, we will be doing interventions by applicants where each applicant will have an opportunity to comment on one or all applications competing before us today.

1299 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

1300 MS MacDONALD: Thank you.

1301 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Alors, nous reprenons à 09h00 demain matin. Merci et bonne soirée.

--- L'audience est ajournée à 1614, pour reprendre

le mardi 7 mars 2000 à 09h00 / Whereupon

the hearing adjourned at 1614, to resume on

Tuesday, March 7, 2000 at 0900