ARCHIVED -  Transcript - Toronto, ON - 2000/02/10

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

FOR THE CANADIAN RADIO-TELEVISION AND

TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION

TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DU

CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION

ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES

SUBJECT / SUJET:

BROADCASTING APPLICATIONS AND LICENCES/

DEMANDES ET LICENCES EN RADIODIFFUSION

HELD AT: TENUE À:

Triumph Howard Johnson Triumph Howard Johnson

Plaza-Hotel Plaza-Hotel

MacDonald-Cartier Salle de bal

Ballroom MacDonald-Cartier

2737 Keele Street 2737, rue Keele

Toronto, Ontario Toronto (Ontario)

February 10, 2000 Le 10 février 2000

Volume 9

Transcripts

In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages

Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be

bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members

and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of

Contents.

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded

verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in

either of the official languages, depending on the language

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.

Transcription

Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues

officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront

bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des

membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience

publique ainsi que la table des matières.

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu

textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée

et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues

officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le

participant à l'audience publique.

Canadian Radio-television and

Telecommunications Commission

Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des

télécommunications canadiennes

Transcript / Transcription

Public Hearing / Audience publique

Broadcasting Applications and Licences/

Demandes et licences en radiodiffusion

BEFORE / DEVANT:

A. Wylie Chairperson/Présidente

M. Wilson Commissioner/Conseillère

J. Pennefather Commissioner/Conseillère

A. Cardozo Commissioner/Conseiller

R. Williams Commissioner/Conseiller

C. Grauer Commissioner/Conseillère

A. Noël Commissioner/Conseillère

ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:

D. Rhéaume Legal Counsel /

Conseiller juridique

HELD AT: TENUE À:

Triumph Howard Johnson Triumph Howard Johnson

Plaza-Hotel Plaza-Hotel

MacDonald-Cartier Salle de bal

Ballroom MacDonald-Cartier

2737 Keele Street 2737, rue Keele

Toronto, Ontario Toronto (Ontario)

February 10, 2000 Le 10 février 2000

Volume 9

TABLE OF CONTENTS / TABLE DES MATIÈRES

PAGE

PHASE III (cont'd) - INTERVENTION BY/PAR

A.M.E. Records 1729

Ms Zelda Young 1733

Masters Insurance Limited 1736

Sam the Record Man 1739

Mr. John Piccinini 1747

Ms Debora De Angelis 1751

National Congress of Italian Canadians 1753

Ms Mayela Romero 1757

Professor Harbinder Singh 1761

Mr. Richard Chamberlin 1768

Mr. Cris Rosati 1772

Villa Charities 1778

PHASE IV

REPLY BY / RÉPLIQUE PAR

Radio 1540 Limited 1784

914258 Ontario Limited 1804

Fairchild Radio (Toronto) Ltd. 1819

Mr. Arnold A. Auguste 1832

Mr. B. Denham Jolly 1842

Mr. Andy McNabb 1854

CKMW Radio Ltd. 1873

Durham Radio Inc. 1887

Mr. Gary Farmer 1897

CHWO Ontario Inc. 1914

YTV Canada, Inc. 1924

Toronto, Ontario / Toronto (Ontario)

--- Upon resuming on Thursday, February 10, 2000

at 0900 / L'audience reprend le jeudi

10 février 2000 à 0900

8254 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning and welcome back to our hearing.

8255 Today we will hear an intervention in the Durham application and then interventions in the CHIN application.

8256 As I have indicated before, every group of intervenors we have heard, due to our desire to hear as many intervenors as possible, we have not asked questions or engaged into discussion with intervenors supporting the various applications. We are nevertheless interested in what you have to say and we want to remind you that a transcript is made of your oral intervention and it's added to the written intervention and forms part of the record.

8257 Our lack of questioning is not a lack of interest and your participation is most appreciated.

8258 We have to adjourn today from twelve to two, so wherever we are in the agenda, we have no choice. We will adjourn around ten or five to twelve. It is our forecast at the moment that we will be finished the interventions by then and then when we resume at two, we will hear the replies.

8259 Thank you.

8260 Mr. Secretary.

8261 MR. CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Good morning, everyone.

8262 I would just like to ask everyone's cooperation again as I have done before during this hearing. If you could please ensure that cell phones, pagers and so on are turned off. We would appreciate that.

8263 I also remind you that intervenors are asked to keep their presentations to a maximum of ten minutes. We would appreciate that.

8264 I would like to call our first intervenor this morning, A.M.E. Records. Mr. Gabrielli, please.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

8265 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, Mr. Gabrielli.

8266 MR. GABRIELLI: Good morning.

8267 I would like to start by thanking Madam Chair and the Commissioners for giving me to talk on behalf of Durham and for rescheduling my appearance. As you all know, we had a death in my family, so thank you very much for that.

8268 This is a very simple matter for me. When it first came on my desk, I thought it was basically a hands down. We had in Toronto a country station that served 360,000 people. When that station went to dance, we now have no outlet in Toronto, which is the biggest city for country music.

8269 At A.M.E. Records, we thrive on promoting Canadian talent. The Toronto market is a very important market for us to expose us. We also run a production company called Gabrielli Productions. We promote concerts. In the last month we have promoted Patricia Conroy and we have Farmer's Daughters coming up.

8270 Unfortunately, again because we have no radio station serving the Toronto area, we bring these acts into smaller towns like Oshawa and Peterborough, which is a great venue but again, we are missing a big part of the market.

8271 It's not to say that other music genres are not important, they are just as important, but if you look at -- they all have outlets. You got your early music to dance music. They have the CHUMs of the world, the CISS' of the world, they are playing that music. In Toronto, country music being the second most listened to genre in the country, it has no outlet in Toronto whatsoever. When CISS left, they just left us behind.

8272 Now, a lot of people may ask and maybe think that, you know, A.M.E. Records has a vested interest in the fact that we have country artists. Well, A.M.E. Records also has a hip pop artist, what they are calling the biggest hip pop artist in Toronto, we have a rock artist. We have outlets for those artists. We have outlets for hip pop artists on CISS, on CHUM on CHFI, on 103 and 108. We have a market set for them.

8273 On country music, we don't. It is very important to us that we have this Toronto market. Again, when it came on my desk, I thought it was very simple hands down. We have a proven market of 360,000 people that we lost when CISS went to dance. For that reason, and maybe that reason alone, Durham should get their 93.5.

8274 I know I have ten minutes, but it doesn't take ten minutes I think to put across what we are trying to do here in Toronto. We are trying to bring the big acts into Toronto. By bringing the big acts into Toronto, we need a radio station behind us. Right now Durham has maybe a listenership of 80,000. You bring that up to another 360,000, that's 440,000 listeners. That's a major market, especially for new talent.

8275 With A.M.E. Records, we sign Canadian artists and Canadian artists only. Now, when you can get exposure to 460,000 people on a new artist, that is a lot of work and that is a lot of people listening and getting your music across. We don't have that outlet right now in Toronto. Again, you know, repeating myself, the other music genres do have the outlet, maybe not as much as it should be, but it's there.

8276 In country we just don't have it. I mean we are the biggest city in Canada. Aside from Montreal, who really doesn't have a country listenership, we don't have a country station. It is my strong opinion that Durham really should get this hands down.

8277 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Gabrielli, for your presentation and for sticking with it and for coming even today.

8278 MR. GABRIELLI: Thank you.

8279 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary, please.

8280 MR. CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

8281 We will now hear a number of intervenors, one at a time, who wish to express their support for Mr. Lombardi's application, starting with Zelda Young.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

8282 MS YOUNG: Thank you very much for giving me this opportunity of speaking on behalf of CHIN Radio and their application for 740.

8283 I have been part of the CHIN family for well over 20 years and basically grew up with the Lombardi children. As you can see, they are all now responsible and caring adults.

8284 My dad met Johnny at CKFH and they both believed in the dream of a multicultural radio station where people from other ethnic groups would have an opportunity to retain their heritage and still be good Canadians.

8285 Johnny Lombardi had a vision of a multicultural community and he made it happen with his persistent nature and his sincere desire to bring ethnic groups together. If you know Johnny Lombardi, you know that that's absolutely true. He believed in his dream, his dream of a better Canada, and in 1966, of course, CHIN was born and my dad was the very first producer onboard.

8286 I'm not sure if Johnny knew the impact that CHIN had on the community. At that time selling air time was next to impossible because CHIN was considered to be the bad side of the tracks, but within time, respect for multiculturalism grew and CHIN, of course, and they became a respected name in the community.

8287 As a Jew, my dad knew what our ancestors had endured the Second World War and wanted a better life for Jews the world over. Out of the Holocaust came the State of Israel and the opportunity for Jews to have a homeland of their own, but what about Jews here in Canada, Toronto be exact?

8288 There was a time when Jews were not allowed in clubs. There was a quota on university entrance and anti-semitism was running rampant. I knew that with the birth of CHIN radio and multiculturalism the Jewish community, as well as other ethnic groups, would have a future.

8289 If multiculturalism and Johnny Lombardi had been around earlier, had multiculturalism been a part of the fabrics of other countries, who knows what we would have prevented?

8290 I don't need to move to Israel to be a free Jew. I can be free here in Canada because of the CRTC's ruling and people like Johnny. Our community needs more air time to share their similarities and their views. I mean all the other radio stations deserve the air time I'm sure, but I think that it's really our duty to give it to someone who can make a difference today.

8291 You can see that chaos is everywhere. Our kids aren't safe in schools and they are turning to violence. We need to protect them by giving them programming that will make them proud of their backgrounds and opportunities to become valuable Canadian citizens. If you award the licence to Johnny Lombardi, you give all of us a chance for a new and rewarding life today and in the future.

8292 Thank you very much for your time.

8293 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Ms Young, for your participation in our process.

8294 MS YOUNG: Thank you.

8295 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary, please.

8296 MR. CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

8297 We will now hear the intervention by John Piccinini. I gather Mr. Piccinini is not with us at the moment.

8298 In that case, I will invite Richard Chamberlain forward to present his intervention. Okay.

8299 How about Masters Insurance Limited, Mr. Ciccolini.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

8300 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, Mr. Ciccolini.

8301 MR. CICCOLINI: Good morning, Madam Chair. Thank you very much for the opportunity to come and speak to you about one of my favourite people, John Lombardi, and CHIN Radio.

8302 Thirty plus years ago of broadcasting ethnic languages and keeping the heritage of immigrants who otherwise would have little or no avenue to hear what is happening by their language not knowing that particular language of the day is something that one has to be very proud of and John Lombardi has made this happen.

8303 The ethnic community now has expanded, moving out from the downtown area of Toronto to the 905 zone. As you know, many of the people that used to live in the downtown area are now going to Barrie, Collingwood, Orillia, et cetera. I'm one of those guys that have purchased up in that area.

8304 It is important that we have a radio station that follows us, not necessarily for myself but to keep the heritage and the languages that we have been brought up with.

8305 The need of 740 radio for CHIN can only expand this avenue and I can assure you that this would only enhance the heritage that this country is all about and has made such an incredible stance.

8306 Before the Lombardi family into today, there are no other families that run ethnic radio and TV stations. The one that is existing or the ones that have existed this day have all been gobbled up by large conglomerates. Now the programs get reduced or cancelled in many cases because of budgetary reasons.

8307 The Lombardi family has made it a motto that they do not go out there to make sure that they are going to cancel these ethnic programs, but they are expanding them to other languages necessary as required. The Lombardi family have made it a journey to where they are now and to serve the people that you and I don't even know exist and give these people an avenue to look forward to the many activities that the Lombardi family produces today.

8308 I have an 87 year old mother who lives alone lives by CHIN Radio and in the morning, if she doesn't hear Vittoria Coco, something's wrong. If she doesn't hear Mr. Lombardi, she says "What happened? He's not around". She lives all day long with CHIN radio and obviously the TV stations so that she can pick up all her avenues.

8309 By allowing Lombardi and CHIN the 740 band, you are going to continue a tradition that in the ethnic media will never, and I repeat never, be equalled. The point here is service. CHIN has served our community in a phenomenal way and has made the seniors live the proper life that they rightfully expect.

8310 One other side of the Lombardi family that I think this panel should know about is their giving. I unfortunately in 1995 lost a daughter to a blood problem and I can tell you at that particular time Sick Kids Telethon and Johnny Lombardi made it so happen that some of the kids now reap the benefit of his service, of his avenue and his giving.

8311 He does the Thalassaemia Radiothon every year, which I am involved with. This is another bowel problem system and I can tell you that they reap the benefit of hundreds of thousands of dollars because of his intervention, his giving and always trying to make people a little better and a little happier that they are in this country.

8312 He does the Caritas Telethon, or I should say Radiothon. This an avenue of Father John Carparelli. He has an avenue of unfortunate young people who have gotten into people with drugs, et cetera. He does that for them.

8313 I can only tell you that your having given to these people that particular avenue, it will only enhance not only the ethnic community, but the people that are in need.

8314 Thank you very much.

8315 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr. Ciccolini.

8316 Mr. Secretary, please.

8317 MR. CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

8318 I know our next intervenor is in the room. He's Sam the Record Man, Mr. Sam Sniderman.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

8319 THE CHAIRPERSON: Those are not vinyl records in your bag, are they?

8320 MR. SNIDERMAN: Well, I wish they were. They have a value today.

8321 THE CHAIRPERSON: That's what my children tell me is the reason why my basement is full of them, that one day they will be valuable. My old age has been secured.

8322 MR. SNIDERMAN: I think you have more to go on than that.

8323 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, thank you. That's what we need in the morning.

8324 Go ahead when you are ready.

8325 MR. SNIDERMAN: I will. Thank you.

8326 Thank you very much for hearing me. I don't get too much opportunity to speak before the CRTC these days, although I started with Pierre Juneau when he was there handing out the legislation. That's really what I want to talk about.

8327 I know that you must have a lot of graphs and charts and sincere promises, you know, in all these applications, but I want to talk about the attitude which I think is going to be the most valuable criteria that can be presented before this committee, the attitude of the licensee.

8328 To me that will be the most important ingredient to be considered. Who will operate 740 AM? It's a very valuable channel. Who is going to get it? I hope Johnny gets it. I'm biased, I will tell you straight on, not only biased for the Lombardis, but biased on what they mean to me and the community. I have had a long history with Johnny.

8329 When Pierre Juneau announced the Canadian content legislation, I was on the second floor at King and Jarvis Street. That was some 35 years ago. The CRTC legislation, despite all the arguments that have come up, they were responsible for the Canadian recording industry. No question. I will argue that point for the next seven days if you want.

8330 Without Pierre Juneau, without the CRTC, even today, without it, goodbye Canadian recording industry which is shrinking very much every year anyways and hopefully will not go back to where it was.

8331 You know, at that time, and now as well, there was complaining, complaining by the stations, complaining by the record companies, "You are going to bankrupt everybody with the legislation". Everybody cried. It was that negative attitude that really delayed the success of the recording industry.

8332 It took some years. You get fed up at the beginning with the announcer that got on the radio and the man -- the columnists that wrote "What, another Canadian recording?" It got a bad image. It got a bad image not only in Canada with the public, it got a bad image in the States and throughout the world. Even now, you know, you have to put up with some of that. I'm sorry that it's there.

8333 That negative attitude really was very destructive. It wasn't until the day where the media got to recognize the values and the recording industry got to recognize the values of promoting the records in Canada.

8334 Eventually the disk jockey would get on the radio and he would say "Hey, another Canadian record". Just that little difference in inflection and tone made a difference between negative and affirmative. When we got to be affirmative, look what happened. We have got a recording industry, Canada has, with national and multinational recording artists. I will tell you, the CRTC deserves the credit for having done it.

8335 I want to paint you a little bit of a picture of what it was in the early days in Toronto when Johnny and I sort of grew up together. You know, Sam the Record Man and CHIN, we rocked in the same cradle on College Street. Jews and Italians, our neighbours to the north at Bloor and Dovercourt were Ukrainians and Russians, to the west around High Park there were Germans and Polish, and to the east Scottish, English and Irish. Later on the Greeks took over the Danforth. You would have had to be part of the district to be most able to understand its needs.

8336 Johnny and Sam, we didn't become part of the community. It's where we lived. We were part of the community to begin with and Johnny still is.

8337 Before Sam the Record Man or CHIN, Johnny and Sam's friendship began with a business relationship for survival. Johnny had a grocery store, but his love was a program, a foreign language program. It was on the radio station that was the forerunner of CHUM on Mutual Street. I remember very well a deep voiced announcer, Vern Hill. I don't think he ever spoke anything but English, but he was a nice guy.

8338 You know, Johnny needed records for his radio program. At that time it was Sniderman's Music Hall -- big name, little money. We loaned Johnny records and got advertising credits in return.

8339 I would love to carry on for hours with this story because it's intriguing, even to me. In fact, they have asked me many times to write a book on it, but I won't do that until I'm dead. I know too much about the industry.

8340 In 1961, Sam the Record Man went to Yonge Street and five years later, a dream came true: CHIN is born. Johnny has his own station. With that, Johnny said "Sam, would you come on the board of CHIN". I said "Well, Johnny, being a businessman, what do I get out of it?" He said "Well, Sam, what do you want?" I said "I want to be able any time I ask you to be able to promote Canadian talent on that station".

8341 We even had a guy like John Diefenbaker, the Prime Minister at that time, on a radio call-in because I did an hour radio show, whatever, in the morning. I don't remember back that far, but it must have been very exciting.

8342 You know, Johnny made a deal and, typically, his word was his bond. To this day CHIN will promote Canadian talent as a priority. You don't need a Canadian content for CHIN. You got Johnny Lombardi and you got his word. Believe me, in that community if you gave your word, you didn't go back on it.

8343 In those days, the new Canadian was in a strange new land. Sam sold them music in a language they understood and CHIN played their music, spoke their language, was their light in the darkness, their comforter. CHIN understood their needs, taught them, informed them, was their news, gave them news of what was happening and they still do. CHIN respected them. Johnny Lombardi respected them and they respected CHIN.

8344 So you ask: Why CHIN, why the Lombardis for 740 AM? Well, like I started off, it's the attitude, the Lombardis' attitude. It's pretty hard to describe what you have lived with all your life. It's more than a desire for them to do what they do. It's a tradition. It's a bond.

8345 You know, I come to mind with really three outstanding Toronto families. The similarities are striking. Ed Mirvish, a good friend of mine, has David and David uses Ed as a role model. David uses Canadian talent in those shows as though they were relatives.

8346 For myself, Sam the Record Man, I have got Jason. I'm his role model. Jason was the Chair of FACTOR for quite a few years. He's the youngest member of Roy Thomson Hall, of their board. He's following in my footsteps.

8347 Johnny has got Lenny. Johnny is the role model for Lenny. Whatever Johnny said over the years, Lenny learned. If there ever was another Johnny, it's Lenny.

8348 So you ask what is it that CHIN and the Lombardis do best? Well, there's 30 years of proof of them working with the new Canadians, communicating with them, teaching them. CHIN is believable, Johnny is believable, Lenny is believable and the broader the base they have to work from, the better it will be.

8349 You know, there are first, second and third generation new Canadians in Greater Toronto. To me, there's great importance in this millennium of these new Canadians, first, second and third generation. The last millennium, I believe Canada became a voice in the world. This millennium, and listen to this closely, I'm living on these words, this millennium I pray that Canadians become more Canadian. We need to become more Canadian. We have so much of value and so much to be proud of. This first, second and third generation are the best group to work with to make this happen.

8350 You say "Okay, so what's Johnny's recipe?" Well, he's got experience, learned the hard way. Ten years from today this committee will be very pleased that you chose to go with the Lombardis.

8351 These new technologies, as they are doing now, will challenge any and all rules. They are doing it now. The record industry is on the cutting edge of knowing "Where do we go from here?" and in some ways the CRTC also has that problem. It will become more and more aggravated.

8352 Responsible use of the airwaves will be a tough task. It will only be those that grew up with the service to the community as their way of life, only those with that as their attitude, as their tradition, only those will be able to fulfil their obligations to the country, to the CRTC and to the community.

8353 Thank you.

8354 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr. Sniderman, for your presentation. I'm sure Mr. Lombardi is happy to have his friend here.

8355 Mr. Secretary, please.

8356 MR. SNIDERMAN: If at times I just smile when you are talking, it's because I'm old and I don't hear that well. But I thank you. I saw the light of your eyes. That was my pleasure.

8357 MR. CUSSONS: I would now like to call upon Piccinini to present his intervention, please.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

8358 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. It's a pleasure to have you. Go ahead when you are ready.

8359 MR. PICCININI: Thank you.

8360 My name is John Piccinini. Good morning to all of you. I will be brief. I just want to illustrate and tell you a little bit about what I think CHIN does beyond the business of radio.

8361 For your information, I am a Senior Vice-President of Merrill Lynch Canada. As well, I am the President of a group called The Athletics Canada Foundation. I also sit on several fundraising organizations and community groups in the GTA.

8362 Today I am here in a different role. I am here as the President of the Toronto Chapter of the Colombo Lions Club. Our organization is proud to be one of the oldest charter Lions Clubs in the GTA. As you may know, Lions worldwide enjoys a long tradition of fundraising and charitable work and has for years.

8363 My goal is to make you aware of CHIN's special role within the community it serves. We are honoured to be associated and to have been asked to be here today in support of CHIN's application to you. We consider ourselves quite fortunate to have enjoyed a longstanding association with CHIN.

8364 For more than 20 years we have been able to take advantage of our mutually unique position within the community to enhance our fundraising activities. Over this period of time, our major fundraising events have been held in conjunction with CHIN's annual picnic.

8365 We have been allowed to take advantage of CHIN's multicultural appeal, their years of organizational experience and expertise and their focus marketing ability to continually attract large multicultural crowds to their annual event.

8366 Because of this association, we have been able to raise and donate over $500,00 in our club's history to a variety of worthy organizations. As an organization, we are convinced that we would not have been able to accomplish these results without the aid and cooperation of CHIN.

8367 To us this is evidence of the distinct position that this applicant enjoys in the community in which we live and work. Clearly, in our opinion, there is no other media organization that has such deep rooted community ties and who consciously links those ties back to the community they serve in charitable ways.

8368 From our vantage point, CHIN understands not only who their market is, but equally important, how their market is evolving. We understand that the application before you is in part a reflection of CHIN's desire to serve a second and third generation multicultural community in Toronto and we strongly endorse CHIN's recognition that change and their ability to recognize and adapt to it will enable CHIN to continue to serve our community for years to come.

8369 The positive effect of this change, we believe, will enable organizations like ours to continue to serve community groups that depend on charitable giving in order to survive. We look forward to continuing our longstanding relationship with CHIN in both our future endeavours and we are honoured that we have been given some time with you in support of this application and to illustrate that we think CHIN's presence in the community is much more than just a business and a radio station.

8370 There's a lot that goes back to the community and through links with organizations like ours that CHIN enjoys. We feel we are being a positive influence in our community.

8371 I want to thank you for your time and I appreciate the time you have given us.

8372 Thank you.

8373 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Piccinini.

8374 Mr. Secretary, please.

8375 MR. CUSSONS: Our next intervention is by Villa Charities Incorporated. I guess they are not with us at the moment, so I would then call Debora De Angelis, please.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

8376 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, Ms De Angelis.

8377 MS DE ANGELIS: Thank you. Once again, my name is Debora De Angelis. Thank you for giving me this opportunity.

8378 Currently, most ethnic TV, print and radio cater to my parents' and grandparents' generation, including CHIN. CHIN to my parents and grandparents is a station where they can listen to their talk shows, to news, all in Italian. To my parents, listening to CHIN, it's part of their culture and identity.

8379 It occurred to me a little while back that there was no ethnic, in my situation Italian, radio and TV shows who spoke to my needs as a young person and as a young Italian Canadian.

8380 Although many young Italian Canadians are very proud of their ethnicity of being Italian Canadian, there are no TV shows or radio or print which speaks to them in their culture. So these young people are going to other sources, sources which do not speak their language or do not speak to their culture. They watch and read and listen to these sources every single day. I believe little by little they are losing their identity, their Italian Canadian identity, and culture.

8381 Young people watch and listen and read what is relevant to them. Presently, none of my friends or acquaintances listen to CHIN and this is quite unfortunate. Unfortunately, this generation has become disenfranchised with what is out there for them culturally. This is very worrisome to me as a young Italian Canadian who wants to see my culture and traditions continue into the future.

8382 I believe with an additional radio station CHIN would dedicate time to the issues that are relevant to young Italian Canadians in a language forum that they would be able to understand. This additional station would provide my generation, which is the second generation and third and fourth generations, the opportunity to listen and enforce their cultural identity and help make Toronto and Canada a real multicultural society.

8383 Thanks.

8384 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much for your participation, Ms De Angelis.

8385 Mr. Secretary, please.

8386 MR. CUSSONS: I now call on the National Congress of Italian Canadians to present its intervention, please. Mr. Grande.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

8387 MR. GRANDE: Good morning. Thank you, Madam Chair and Members of the Commission for giving me the opportunity to say a few words in this regard.

8388 My name again is Greg Grande. I am the President of the National Congress of Italian Canadians, Ontario Region. If you will allow me, I would like to take a minute to give you a little synopsis of what we do as community organizations.

8389 The National Congress of Italian Canadians is an umbrella organization, representing over 1.2 million talian Canadians living in Canada. Its overall objectives are to represent, promote, interact as an advocate for Italian Canadians and to foster the evolution of a better Canada through mutual understanding, good will, cooperation between all Canadians.

8390 Founded in 1974, the National Congress consists of a national executive headquartered in Ottawa, seven affiliated regions, each representing a geographical division of Canada, an affiliated district, local district within each region, the number of which varies with the concentration of Italian Canadians. All three levels of the Congress, though functionally autonomous, share common objectives set out by the Constitution.

8391 The Ontario Region of the National Congress is an incorporated, non-profit organization which represents over 650,000 Italian Canadians residing in the Province of Ontario. It's comprised of an executive committee and a regional assembly. It's primary function is to deal with issues of interest to Italian Canadians which have a province-wide impact.

8392 Along with wearing the hat of President of the Ontario Region, I am also representing Mr. Calella, who is the President of the Toronto District, which is the largest in Canada for the simple reason that within the GTA we have over 500,000 Italian Canadians here.

8393 Both organizations strongly support the application to the CRTC of Radio 1540 Limited, CHIN, to operate a new ethnic broadcast service on 740 AM. Why do we, a community organization, represent Italian support to this application?

8394 The CHIN application conceptually recognized the needs of Toronto evolving ethnic groups who were formerly content with the multilingual fourth language programming. CHIN knew 740 AM would provide a new, innovative, bilingual, cross-culture programming which would serve as a bridge between the culture groups, educating, informing, entertaining and promoting cultural diversity through understanding it and celebrating.

8395 If we are to believe that cultural linguistic diversity is an integral part of Canada and a fundamental characteristic of our society, then we must ensure that this diversity is recognized and celebrated.

8396 Thirdly, this new service reflects the evolution within the multi-ethnic communities and the higher level of integration into a multicultural Canadian society.

8397 Fourthly, the new 740 AM service would provide additional programming choices to 25 distinct cultural, linguistic groups in the Greater Toronto area, making the listening preferences of a broad range of underserved first, second and third and maybe fourth generation ethnic Canadians.

8398 Fifthly, the new service on 740 AM would provide the solution to the ongoing technical problems of poor reception of CHIN's night-time signal as the 740 AM frequency will have a clear reception to many listeners previously unable to tune in to CHIN AM at night.

8399 Sixthly, CHIN has a proven financial track record and strong roots within the multicultural communities which have been served by CHIN for over 35 years. It has the knowledge and experience and thus it is well positioned for growth and expansion in the ethnic broadcasting market.

8400 Personally, I have been here in Canada -- I am one of the 26,000 immigrants from Italy who came in 1955. Since I came, I have had quite a close association with CHIN programming, with the Johnny Lombardi grocery stores, because there I would go and hear and have a piece of my own country when I first arrived and I couldn't identify with anything else but that and then hear my music, my folk music, my opera arias and hear cultural events that were developing here in our community. That gave me an impetus to be a volunteer in the community.

8401 Johnny Lombardi has been quite a mentor to me personally, not so much because I feel very close to him, but because he provided to me an example and model to follow in terms of getting involved in the community.

8402 Johnny Lombardi and CHIN Radio have practised multiculturalism before multicultures were in existence. For that reason I feel very strongly, myself and the organization I represent, both the Ontario Region and the Toronto district, that Johnny Lombardi and CHIN are the best organization which is well set up to take over 740 AM.

8403 I feel that Radio 1540 will make a truly significant continued contribution to multiculture in our city and province.

8404 Thank you.

8405 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Grande, for your participation.

8406 Mr. Secretary, please.

8407 MR. CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

8408 We will now hear an intervention by Mayela Romero.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

8409 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, Ms Romero.

8410 MS ROMERO: Good morning.

8411 Good morning, Madam Chair and CRTC counsel. I take part in CHIN Radio by participating in T.O. Latino every Saturday from 9:30 to 2:00 a.m. Actually, I am not on air until 2:00 a.m. until 10:30 to be exact.

8412 One of the issues and the reason why I am here today is to represent the young Latin Americans of this community. We have basically grown into Canada, either arrived to Canada or been born here, and having to face "What do I speak?". Many stations at this present time do have -- you know, some do have Spanish, but we are faced with Latin Americans that either came here and have children that don't speak Spanish and what we offer on our show, particularly on my show, is that we speak "Spanglish".

8413 Actually to make a point, Magna De La Torre, the producer of our show -- the Latin American review of Grammy Awards will be done in three languages: Spanish, Spanglish and English. As we can see, Spanglish is actually becoming a language in our society. Whether some people like it or not, it is a necessity for our youth.

8414 We basically prefer to speak their language than not to know our Latin American language at all. Unfortunately, at this time at CHIN Radio, we only have an hour to do this. We need more time to communicate, especially the youth out there, and I thank CHIN Radio for giving us the opportunity.

8415 Now, we know that this application will provide time for us from 7:30 till approximately 12:00 a.m. and that would be from Monday to Friday. We do need this time. We appreciate and acknowledge your time today for helping us and I would actually like to speak to you to some things that with that hour's time that I have had we have been able to communicate.

8416 CHIN Spanish programming has worked with various organizations and community members in order to communicate with one another and keep our Latin American community informed. I would like to mention some today.

8417 LINK, which is a program of English as a second language, is sponsored by the government and offered to our Hispanic community. We have also taken part and communicated with the community in regards to fundraisers from natural disasters such as Hurricane Mitch and the disastrous rains in Venezuela.

8418 Most recently, a case that has involved a Spanish youth. Her name is Elizabeth Murillo, who requires a bone marrow transplant. I strongly believe because it was mentioned as well in English that the outcome was so great in the clinic that was held at Monsignor Johnson on January 16.

8419 One thousand and ten potential donors showed up that day and many of them were youth, basically speaking to us that we were able to reach some of those people that could be potential donors, meaning we could have found, which we don't know yet as of this day, if we did find a donor.

8420 I felt very special, to be honest with you, to have contributed in some way. It was because we were able to speak Spanglish and communicate with the youth that are sometimes scared to speak Spanish because they don't know it completely like their parents, but nevertheless they do want to learn. The Spanglish gives them the incentive to do so.

8421 We also support those who come to Canada and study English, so basically it's those coming from Mexico, Venezuela or Chile and various other Latin American countries. They come to study at the universities. They tune in to our program because we also help them with their English, so everyone in a sense, every youth, is benefiting from this.

8422 CHIN Radio's application would help us all. I not only sit here for myself for CHIN, for the program, I sit here in front of you because of the youth. Instead of being at school today, I am here with you addressing the issue which I consider very important.

8423 What better example than myself. I have lived through these experiences and I know what it feels like. Do I speak Spanish or do I speak English? I choose to speak both.

8424 Thank you very much.

8425 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms De La Torre, for your participation.

8426 Mr. Secretary, please.

8427 MR. CUSSONS: We will now hear an intervention by Cris Rosati.

--- Pause / Pause

8428 MR. RHÉAUME: I guess that intervenor is not with us at the moment, so I would then call upon Mario Silva.

--- Pause / Pause

8429 MR. CUSSONS: In that case I will call on Professor Harbinder Singh.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

8430 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, Professor Singh.

8431 MR. SINGH: Madam Chairperson, Members of the CRTC and friends, good morning. My name is Harbinder Singh. I came to Canada from India as a landed immigrant about seven years back and now I am a Canadian citizen.

8432 I retired as a senior lecturer from Calsa College, Delhininistry, India, and taught for 26 years Punjabi language to teachers, Punjabi culture, history of civilization and Sikh philosophy to undergraduates, honest graduates and postgraduates.

8433 In Canada, I have been deeply involved in understanding and promoting the process of integration, unfortunately a very slow one, of the Canadian ethnic communities.

8434 The Canadian radio and TV programs in general play a good but Canadian role in this regard. However, in my considered opinion, CHIN radio and TV programs have played a perceptible role in understanding the circumstances of this area of human interaction and understanding the fundamental steps toward the harmony of the multicultural society of Canada, particularly with the South Asian communities.

8435 Today, this morning, I am going to speak on the Indian programming on CHIN radio, the good features of the program. The immigrants who have settled in Canada have a wonderful family composition. Here I would like to mention that I lecture in a school. In the class there were 28 students -- sorry, 32 students.

8436 One of the students was the son of my friend. I delivered a talk on comparative religion. Later on I came to know in family from my friend that out of 32 students in their class, 22 were living with a single parent. Only four were living with both their parents.

8437 In our case, we have a family composition which is very collective. In every second house in the South Asian communities, particularly with the Navi communities you will find grandparents, then the children and grandchildren living together. I have four daughters, one son and 11 grandchildren and I treat all of them as a single family. We meet together as a single family. We enjoy life. We listen to radio and TV programs collectively.

8438 In Canada, this collective family is now undergoing a transformation. The new generation is coming up. English is their first language. So I start the immigrants who have settled in Canada "Have a wonderful family composition". They have seniors who have no or very little knowledge of English and then the second generation who can speak both English and their own mother tongue, Punjabi in my case. The children who know English as their first language also have a deep liking for their own cultural heritage.

8439 I have a grandson who is five years old. He was born here. Now whenever there is an Indian program on TV or the radio, he will call "Grandma, Granddad, come, Indian program. Come, listen Indian program". Now he is also participating and learning. He wants to dance with Indian programs. He speaks English. In the streets he intermingles with Canadian boys. He speaks good English, but at the same time he also speaks Punjabi and tries to participate in the TV and radio programs.

8440 They have seniors who have no or very little knowledge of English and then the second generation who can speak both English and their mother tongue and the children who know English as their first language also have a deep liking for their own cultural heritage.

8441 Such radio programs who fulfil the needs of the listeners, taking into consideration the family composition, are always relevant and popular and have a large number of listeners and admirers and CHIN Radio is one of such radio programs.

8442 The Indian programs on CHIN Radio are bilingual. There is some English and Hindustani and also in Punjabi. Language are very particular and relevant in view of the composition of Asian families.

8443 I have been given to understand that a lot of material has been put before the Commission about the Hindustani on language. It's a wonderful chapter in the history of India. The emergence of Urtu and Hindustani as a common language of the different people. It reaches the people, crossing the boundaries of religion and other lines of contradiction. For instance, the Hindus are Muslims. They have a lot of mutual contradictions, but they use the same language in general to communicate with each other.

8444 When I learned English in India, I was in fifth class. My teachers would say "Write simple sentence. Don't use bombastic words. Use only one subject or one object. This is a table. It has four legs. It is made of wood". That way they taught us to write correct English and to communicate clearly.

8445 CHIN Radio is doing their thing. The linguistic culture which they have developed on the radio programs is wonderful. The Indian programs on CHIN Radio, they are bilingual, in English and Hindustani language, are very practical and relevant in view of the composition of Asian families where children, both school going and college going, understand English and prefer English introductions to the programs and seniors who understand Hindustani are also benefited.

8446 The classical, modern, filmy, religious and folk music is presented in such a wonderful combination that it is difficult to miss it and it gives this output to all kinds and groups of listeners. The old and new songs are very popular with the South Asian listeners. As a matter of fact, the Indian music in the family is the organizing principle. It makes the family to sit together and listen together in the after lunch, after dinner. They enjoy this music.

8447 The old and new songs are very popular with the South Asian listeners. The fundraising programs for various wonderful causes affecting the whole Canadian society at large and some families in extreme distress, irrespective of caste, creed, religion, race, colour, country or any other consideration is, in my considered opinion, a wonderful feature of this CHIN Radio program.

8448 The CHIN picnic has contributed a lot to the recreational needs of the community and the multicultural society living in Toronto. The Indian radio program is prepared for the work in this regard.

8449 Then the talk shows. I happen to listen to a lot of talk shows on CHIN Radio. These talk shows on various current topics affecting the community which are arranged in the Indian programs of CHIN Radio are very informative and very useful. Listeners do not miss these talk shows and wait for such programs.

8450 For instance, the programs on health. The level of information and understanding of the seniors in my community is not that high, but in very simple language, for instance, Dr. Sidu Kain on the talk show, and he explained wonderful points about the health which even my wife nor I did know and we enjoy their program.

8451 The CHIN Radio is an applicant for the new frequency 740 AM and I wholeheartedly support their application with the hope that they will give more time, I repeat it, they will give more time to the Indian programs which will benefit the immigrants not only from Indian, but also from Pakistan and Bangladesh, Nepal, who like Indian music very much. The whole belt, they enjoy Indian music. As a matter of fact, this was one belt, if we read the history, it is a wonderful chapter of multiculturalism, races joining together.

8452 I fully support the application of CHIN Radio for new frequency 740 AM with the hope that they continue, I repeat it, they continue and enhance the scope of their good work on the radio for the benefit of the society in the same way they have been doing in the past.

8453 The children of the immigrants take keen interest in these programs and that way remain in touch with their cultural musical heritage and other folk heritage.

8454 Thank you very much.

8455 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Professor Singh, for your participation.

8456 Mr. Secretary, please.

8457 MR. CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I would now like to invite Richard Chamberlin to present his intervention, please.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

8458 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, Mr. Chamberlin.

8459 MR. CHAMBERLIN: It is with great pleasure that I express my endorsement in support of the application by CHIN Radio TV, Johnny Lombardi, to the CRTC for a 740 AM radio licence today.

8460 I have been a General Motors franchise owner in the City of Toronto since 1991 and prior to that I was employed since 1975 by the franchise I now own. The location of the franchise is on Dufferin Street just south of Yorkdale Shopping Centre. It was and still is in the middle of many multicultural communities that I have had the pleasure of servicing for many years.

8461 It is more important than ever to recognize and communicate with the ever growing and diversified cultures that make Toronto and Canada such a unique and wonderful place. With this in mind, it has been essential to the growth of my business to establish strong relationships with various media sources to help establish my presence in the multicultural community.

8462 As a longstanding client of Johnny Lombardi and CHIN Radio TV, I am pleased to say that they continue to be a family based company with values and standards that regularly exceed the clients' and audiences' expectations in quality programming. They continue to research and execute progressive programming that is unparalleled, in my opinion, to other ethnic broadcasting.

8463 I strongly recommend that CHIN Radio TV be considered for approval for a new licence because of their experience and monumental dedication and commitment that they have demonstrated to the multicultural community through the progressive and diversified programming.

8464 I thought to bring a little bit of perspective, I brought a letter that I just received from Genereral Motors to bring some perspective to it. General Motors is from a national standpoint and a global standpoint one of the largest companies in the automotive industry. This letter was addressed to me. I guess it's significant and indicative of the experience that I have had over the past years. It's addressed to me personally.

8465 A little bit of an explanation there. I am a Chevrolet Oldsmobile franchise. General Motors has five franchises, Pontiac, Buick and Cadillac. I am the second largest in the total scheme of things.

8466 I looked at this letter. I'm gratified and excited about what's taking place with General Motors. Again to bring a little bit of perspective I joined Dean-Myers Chev Olds in 1975. I was 19. It's a family based business. Dean-Chev Olds, Dean Myers is a brand name I feel in the ethnic community. When I say it's a family based business, Dean Myers is my father-in-law.

8467 I had a great opportunity. I have got two great men in my life that have taught me a lot. One is Dean Myers and the other is Johnny Lombardi. I don't know if he realizes it today, but a lot of the success that I attribute to what's been done not only goes to the people that work for me, have been part of my team, but I can probably say that I have designed and organized a staff that is complementary to the Lombardi family.

8468 The principles and ethics that he has employed over the years have been a tremendous benefit to me, my business and the people that work for me.

8469 With that, short and brief, I strongly recommend that he be considered for this licence.

8470 Thank you very much.

8471 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Chamberlin. As you know, we called your name earlier this morning but you weren't here. When I saw the letterhead, I thought that somehow or other he will get here.

8472 MR. CHAMBERLIN: There were a couple of accidents on the 401.

8473 Thank you so much for hearing me.

8474 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary, please.

8475 MR. CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

8476 I would now like to call on Cris Rosati.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

8477 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, Mr. Rosati.

8478 MR. ROSATI: Good morning and thank you very much for the opportunity to address everyone this morning.

8479 My name is Cris Rosati. I am an Arts Consultant with the Ministry of Citizenship, Culture and Recreation for the Province of Ontario. I have worked in the cultural performance industry for about 15 years here in Toronto, most recently at Ontario Place as the Entertainment Manager there. Prior to that, I worked in the United States and mostly in Vancouver as an Arts Programmer, Theatre Programmer and a Festival Producer.

8480 I first met the Lombardis and CHIN through my work at Ontario Place. We had a number of partnerships that we worked together, bringing a variety of cultural programming down to Ontario Place. I have to say the experience was excellent on every front.

8481 The Lombardis, as has been said already today, are an excellent family and run a superb shop and have a tremendous reach in the community and have access to fantastic performers and many cultures that provide food and events and wonderful offerings. They brought them down to Ontario Place and my experience with them was tremendous. So that's a little bit about my relationship with CHIN.

8482 I am here in support of CHIN's application to operate a new ethnic broadcast service on 740 AM. I sit before you as a third generation Italian, an involved member of the cultural community but, more importantly, as a citizen of Toronto.

8483 The direction CHIN wishes to head with this service is a mere image of what I see is contemporary Toronto and contemporary Canada. It is inclusive. It is representative of the broad cultural landscape that is Toronto. It is this broad reach of the application and the work that CHIN does that I find so attractive. Its appeal to me is threefold.

8484 Number one, the bilingual nature is a welcome mat to new Canadians who can receive programming in their first language, but it is supported by English language so you get the best of both, which is what is going on in their experience here in Toronto.

8485 It is a way to connect third generation Canadians such as myself to our past and to the present of the countries of our parents' origin.

8486 Thirdly, that which I find very appealing and I believe adds a lot to the richness of Toronto and is important to the young people of Toronto, is that it represents a rainbow of cultures, their music, their news, events, food, available for the culturally curious, which I consider myself.

8487 As a father of two, my wife and I, with the support of educational curriculum, work very hard to expose and to educate our kids to the varieties of culture that there are out there, all that is rich, all that is wonderful about the people of the world.

8488 Thanks to the many events, the programming activities and the excellent radio and television that the folks at CHIN put out through their radio and TV, through their picnic, through their shows that I was involved in personally at Ontario Place, at Wonderland and various locations across the city, my family and I have been exposed to a number of wonderful events that we might not have had had they not been around.

8489 An expanded broadcast service will be a tremendous tool for CHIN to continue and expand and grow the important work that they have been bringing to Toronto for years and years, bringing the world to Toronto and showing Toronto the world.

8490 As a side note and as a member of the performance community, the availability of a radio station that will provide air time, producers' work, on air work for people new to this country, working in their first language as well as their second language, playing music, having their music exposed they brought with them from their other country, is truly a gift.

8491 I have worked and lived as a cultural professional and as an artist across the country and in the United States. I have never encountered an entity that is so inclusive and is a vehicle for work of such a broad scope as what Johnny Lombardi and CHIN makes available to these artists. I think it's truly a gift.

It's a gift for the city, it's a gift for the listeners and it's a gift for the artists.

8492 With that, I wholeheartedly endorse the application for the service on 740. I think it would be excellent for the City of Toronto and its citizens and the people who are coming here from other countries.

8493 That's all I have to say for the moment.

8494 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much for your participation.

8495 Mr. Secretary, please.

8496 MR. CUSSONS: Madam Chairperson, we do have two remaining intervenors with us this morning. I'm advised that unfortunately it looks as if they won't be able to join us. Specifically, I'm talking about Villa Charities and Mario Silva, but we do have their interventions and, of course, these will be taken into account.

8497 If you agree, I would suggest that perhaps this would be an appropriate time to take a break. Perhaps we could stick to our schedule of starting Phase IV at two o'clock this afternoon to give all of the competing applicants time to assemble and finalize their presentations, if you so wish.

8498 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Secretary.

8499 We will resume then at two o'clock. We are satisfied that anyone who was going to appear and may be here has been given a chance to appear.

8500 MR. CUSSONS: Yes. I just confirmed with Mr. Lombardi that in fact these two remaining intervenors are unlikely to be with us.

8501 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

8502 We will resume then at two o'clock this afternoon with the replies.

8503 Nous reprendons à deux heures. Merci.

--- Pause / Pause

8504 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. Is that what is called getting there by the skin of your teeth? Good morning. We are happy to hear you.

8505 MR. LOMBARDI: Is this fine?

8506 THE CHAIRPERSON: Don't speak too close to it because you will get a boom.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

8507 MR. DILULIO: Thank you. Good morning. My apology to you, Madam Chair and the Members, my apology to the other people I am keeping behind. It's unfortunate I'm late.

8508 My name is Pal DiLulio. I am the Executive Director of something called Villa Charities. Some of you may have heard of the projects of Villa Charities, namely Villa Colombo Home for the Aged, namely Columbus Centre here in Toronto, namely Vita Community Living Services and a number of other apartment buildings.

8509 It's a cultural/social organization that's been around for approximately 30 years, just slightly less than the CHIN Radio and multicultural broadcasting that I am here to support. I like to think that in fact both CHIN and whatever my organization -- it's not mine -- but our organization has done have been parallel and in fact have been very helpful to each other.

8510 We 30 years ago needed to, I guess, share the message of what we wanted to do. It was a younger community back 30 years ago, a community that was trying to prove that it was here in Canada to stay, that it wanted to contribute and that it wanted to in a sense look after itself and then share with many, many others the good of the cultural heritage and we did that primarily through the Italian Canadian media initially and CHIN was right up there from day one, along with some of the other radio and TV stations who have also been very good.

8511 It has been about 30 years and a lot has changed. Today there are many, many people who were 30 years younger 30 years ago, which is creating a dilemma for us as social planners, as community planners in terms of what do we do, where do we go. We are presently as I speak to you planning on either doubling or renewing what we are doing at Lawrence and Dufferin which 30 years ago was the northwest extremity of Toronto. Today it is almost a centre point of Toronto.

8512 We are planning to move some of the activities or augment some of those activities to places in Vaughan and Woodbridge. Why? Because the community has moved. Likewise, CHIN was primarily geared at this community 30 years ago and this community primarily lived south of Steele, south of the 401. That community has now expanded and gone, as I explain in my letter of December 22, all over the Greater Toronto area.

8513 There are new challenges, continuing opportunities for CHIN to serve that community, but in a different way. I am 50 years of age and I still think I'm young. There's about 75,000 to 80,000 people who are of Italian origin who are between the ages of 65 and 80 and CHIN has been one of those constants in their lives.

8514 It has given them comfort, it has given them an opportunity to understand the bewildering changes in their lives from rural to urban, from agricultural to industrial. I think it has helped them settle in, helped them feel at home here in Toronto.

8515 In turn, the products of this generation, myself, my children and many others, are going on to new challenges. I think CHIN wants to continue to serve that segment of the community which perhaps is looking for different needs. The reality out there is that we all speak two or three different languages simultaneously and at the same time. At least I do in my home and my home isn't that different from many other homes across Metro.

8516 I think it's very, very important that although I believe that language is the primary conductor of a culture, there are many other ways and aspects to conduct that culture. I strongly believe in what is called ethnic broadcasting.

8517 I strongly believe that what CHIN can do under the new requested licence is to include my children and thousands of other children of their age into this generation where they are made to feel at home, comfortable with their grandparents, comfortable with their parents -- in this case I'm just the old fogey -- and comfortable with the emerging reality of the world. It's very much multilingual, multicultural, multiracial.

8518 I think that those areas that the Italian community and the Italian culture can share, has to be able to share with the many other aspiring communities and culture in Toronto. At the point in time the only commonality becomes the English language.

8519 I grew up at a time when it wasn't popular. I'm not quite as old as Mr. Johnny Lombardi, but I remember when it wasn't popular to be Italian. You know, at best I was a "spaghetti bender" or a "Wop" when I was going to school. I am glad to see that my children of the same age are now associated with what I call the Gucci-Pucci-inferucci crowd.

8520 A lot of that has happened because my parents, our parents, have worked very hard, because our community has, you know, given and taken its share of the pie and because I think we have contributed to the greater fibre here in Metro Toronto.

8521 I believe that CHIN in its new licence request, as I understand it, will help this new -- I didn't want to use the word millennium, but I will use it -- this new millennium, this new generation. I can certainly see the next 20, 25 years that, perhaps in my own life, that's very, very important to me, very, very important to many others in the Italian community that in a sense represent the first generation of young kids who got off the boat and who are here living kind of still a double life of being Italian at home or Italian Canadian at home and being Italian somewhere else in the greater community.

8522 I could go on and on, but I'm sure you have heard more eloquent or better technical speeches than mine. I'm simply here to register my personal support and that as the Executive Director of Villa Charities, one of the primary organizations within the Italian community in Metro Toronto, in support of Mr. Lombardi's application for 740 AM.

8523 Thank you very much. I will be pleased if you have any comments or questions to stick around. I'm sorry again to make you work overtime.

8524 THE CHAIRPERSON: It was a pleasure hearing you. We are pleased that you made it and that I could find my colleagues to hear you.

8525 MR. DI LULIO: Gracia. Merci.

8526 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

8527 Mr. Secretary -- I believe this is it, Mr. Lombardi.

8528 We will now adjourn until two at which time we will hear replies.

8529 Nous reprendons à deux heures.

--- Recess at 1035 / Suspension à 1035

--- Upon resuming at 1400 / Reprise à 1400

8530 THE CHAIRPERSON: Order, please.

8531 Mr. Secretary.

8532 MR. CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

8533 We are now at Phase IV of our competitor process where we invite our competing applicants in reverse order to come back to respond to any and all interventions. For this we accord a maximum of ten minutes.

8534 Again, I would really appreciate it if members in the audience switched off any cell phones and pagers.

8535 Having dispensed with the preliminaries, it's my pleasure again to introduce Radio 1540 Limited. Mr. Lombardi.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

8536 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: Thank you. Good day, Madam Chair, Members of the Commission. It's indeed a pleasure for us to be here once again in this, the final phase of these proceedings.

8537 I would like to quickly introduce our panel once again. To my left, the President of CHIN Radio, my dad, Johnny Lombardi. To my right, Stephen Zolf, our legal counsel of Heenan Blaikie. Behind me is Mr. Bob Culliton, General Manager and Vice-President of Finance of CHIN Radio, and beside him, my sister, Donina, Vice-President of Promotions and Public Relations. My sister Theresa couldn't be here with us this afternoon as she is out of town on business.

8538 Before we proceed with our oral presentation, I would like Mr. Zolf to address the panel.

8539 MR. ZOLF: Thank you.

8540 Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, the purpose of CHIN's appearance today is twofold. First, CHIN will address the issues raised by the other applicants and by appearing intervenors in reply with respect to the merits of the application.

8541 Second, CHIN also wishes to address the materials that were filed by the City of Toronto and that we circulated to the applicants yesterday in connection with the issue of the transmitter lease arrangements on Toronto Island in response to the Commission's request.

8542 With the Commission's indulgence, those comments on the procedural issues -- are the procedural issues raised by that lease -- will take an additional five minutes to discuss over and above the substantive aspects of the application and we expect to go no more than 15 minutes.

8543 THE CHAIRPERSON: Agreed, Mr. Zolf.

8544 MR. ZOLF: Thank you.

8545 I would first like to begin with Infinity Broadcasting. In its appearance earlier this week, Infinity dismissed CHIN's proposed bilingual format for 740 and stated that it does not conform with the Commission's accepted model for ethnic broadcasting. In reply, Infinity has obviously misunderstood our proposed format and the benefits that it will provide, which are essentially threefold.

8546 First, our new format significantly increases programming diversity in the ethnic market. Second, it ensures little or no overlap with the programming formats of other broadcasters through efficiencies and by repositioning programs among our 1540 AM and 740 AM services. Finally, third, it provides new service to ethnic groups who currently are underserved or unserved by existing ethnic radio stations.

8547 Infinity also asserts that our application has neither the support of nor the sensitivity to South Asian listeners. We take issue with this comment and remind the Commission that CHIN has been programming to the South Asian community for over 30 years. As much as 20 per cent of our entire schedule on 100.7 FM service is dedicated each week to South Asian cultural programs that are comprised predominantly in the Hindustani language.

8548 This longstanding relationship is reflected by the hundreds of letters that CHIN received from our South Asian community supporters towards our application.

8549 We also reject Infinity's contention that our application ignores Hindustani audiences. CHIN's proposed 740 service will offer an additional 28 hours of South Asian programming each week, much of which, if not all, will be attractive and inclusive of the same audiences that Infinity proposes to serve. In total, CHIN will offer over 51 hours of South Asian programming if our application for 740 is approved.

8550 Nor does our proposed format abandon third language listeners. This comment by Infinity effectively ignores the key components of today's ethnic market, namely second and third generations who have a desire for new cross-cultural programming.

8551 CHIN's service on 740 would be inclusive of both language and culture, bringing together first and subsequent generations among our South Asian listeners and, third, filling a key void in the ethnic programming market.

8552 CHIN concedes that in the early days of immigration, it was not possible to separate culture and language. However, the reality of today's ethnic market has seen language and culture effectively decoupled with language often taking a more secondary role.

8553 Our proposed service on 740 would effectively provide a bridge between our core audiences for third language programming and new second and third generation audiences who desire at least an element of English language programming.

8554 We are also puzzled that Infinity feels that CHIN's new service would not reflect the needs of new immigrants when our application --

--- Technical difficulties

8555 THE CHAIRPERSON: Should we take a five minute break while we get this organized?

--- PAUSE / PAUSE

8556 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: Where did I leave off? Oh, yes.

8557 Our proposed service on 740 would effectively provide a bridge between our core audiences for third language programming and new second and third generation audiences who desire at least an element of English language programming.

8558 We are also puzzled that Infinity feels that CHIN's new service would not reflect the needs of new immigrants when our application clearly contemplates new third language programming to as many as 25 distinct cultural and linguistic groups, many of whom are unserved or underserved in today's ethnic radio market.

8559 We submit that our proposed format meets the objectives set out in the new ethnic broadcasting policy and attains an appropriate balance between quality of service on the one hand and serving a minimum number of linguistic groups on the other hand. This will significantly increase diversity and choice for many ethnic listeners in the Toronto radio market.

8560 Now I would like to address Mr. Alvarez' intervention.

8561 Mr. Alvarez, on behalf of CIRV FM, dismissed our proposed bilingual format and suggested that CHIN should be content with introducing bilingual programming on our existing services. In reply, we suggest that such a strategy would merely be lip service to this audience. Moreover, it would be difficult to wedge such a format into our current services which would only serve to alienate our existing third language audiences.

8562 CIRV also suggests that we did not follow the results of the Comquest survey which noted that Italians are less attracted than other ethnic groups to the idea of bilingual programming, but this conveniently ignores the other key elements that CHIN considered in constructing our bilingual format.

8563 Among these elements are the vast potential audience of Italian listeners to the bilingual programming format, the fact that the Italian community represents the largest and most loyal component of CHIN's current audience base and the economic viability of programming aimed at these groups. Who better would know this than CHIN? We have been programming to the Italian community for nearly 35 years.

8564 Mr. Alvarez also raises the prospect of a CHIN 740 service as a major competitive threat. The basis for this claim is CHIN's proposed 16.5 hours of additional Portuguese programming on 1540 AM. Other than this segment of new Portuguese programming, Mr. Alvarez did not identify which, if any, of our remaining programming would be detrimental to CIRV. That is because CHIN in reality poses no threat to CIRV.

8565 What Mr. Alvarez calls a competitive threat are in reality economies of scope and scale that will, for the first time, allow the Toronto ethnic radio market to transcend its limitations and offer the diversity that the ethnic market needs and deserves.

8566 Mr. Alvarez states that the market cannot sustain any additional Portuguese programming, yet CIRV recently received a new SCMO service consisting of 24 hours daily of Portuguese programming. This suggests that there is a significant appetite for new Portuguese programming. It also illustrates just how insignificant our proposed 16.5 hours of Portuguese programming is relative to the total Portuguese programming offered by all of CIRV's broadcasting operations.

8567 CIRV notes that CHIN's new Portuguese programming would represent a 26 per cent increase in CIRV FM's Portuguese schedule, but this conveniently ignores the amount of Portuguese programming on his SCMO.

8568 In reality, our proposed segment would represent a mere 8 per cent increase over CIRV FM's and the SCMO's total Portuguese programming schedule. Nevertheless, Mr. Alvarez is seeking the Commission's assistance in maintaining the status quo despite the fact that his broadcast operations already provide almost 200 hours of programming to the Portuguese market.

8569 CIRV also alleges that our Portuguese programming segment has targeted the lucrative morning drive slot, yet we note that CIRV does not in fact air any Portuguese programming during this period. CIRV has instead elected to broker much of this time slot to Fairchild Radio for programming directed to the Chinese community.

8570 It is no coincidence that our proposed Portuguese programming has been scheduled at times when CIRV does not air Portuguese programs. CHIN has carefully constructed its 740 AM and 1540 AM schedules to ensure that existing services will not be harmed.

8571 In fact, during his appearance before the Commission, Mr. Alvarez confirmed that he will continue to broker Chinese programming to Fairchild during the morning drive period. This statement only served to confirm our decision to provide a discrete segment of Portuguese programming which will fill a real void in the market with no impact whatsoever on CIRV's Portuguese listeners.

8572 Mr. Alvarez also suggests that this is not enough for CHIN to refrain from scheduling Portuguese programming against CIRV's Portuguese language programming and that any new additional programming in this language would be detrimental to CIRV.

8573 We expressly disagree and suggest hat Mr. Alvarez's full time SCMO in Portuguese language suggest that there is a significant audience for Portuguese programming. This conclusion was also supported by our advertising survey which revealed a significant propensity for more spending by Portuguese advertisers.

8574 MR. JOHNNY B. LOMBARDI: Finally, we are concerned that Mr. Alvarez has left the erroneous impression that CHIN has now decided to enter the Portuguese market for the first time. To the contrary, CHIN has a longstanding record of service to Portuguese audiences. Portuguese programming has made up more than 15 per cent of our schedule on our FM service for over 30 years.

8575 In summary, CHIN has carefully conceived its format to serve a mix of second and third generation bilingual listeners and underserved or unserved languages. Moreover, our format has been designed to only minimally overlap with the formats of existing ethnic stations, including CIRV.

8576 Nevertheless, we would be happy to agree to an appropriate condition of licence with respect to our Portuguese programming initiatives if that would allay Mr. Alvarez's concerns.

8577 I would like to briefly discuss the issue of the technical limitations of 1504 AM. Mr. Alvarez suggested that CHIN has already been provided with adequate relief by virtue of our low power FM repeater for 1540. In reply, we note that in fact CHIN applied for a 450 watt repeater, but could only obtain an authorization for a mere 22 watts. Not surprisingly, CHIN's technical difficulties were not solved.

8578 And finally, CIRV has referred the Commission to a 1994 decision denying an application for an ethnic service in support of his opposition to CHIN's service. With respect, this decision has little relevance to CHIN's application.

8579 The 1994 application proposed limited service to as few as 11 groups with no established audience demand or proven untapped advertising revenues. By contrast, CHIN has proposed a diverse programming format aimed at far more cultural and linguistic groups, with an added innovative and unique bilingual programming format, all of which will be attractive to advertisers and to new audiences.

8580 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: And now I would like to turn to the Fairchild intervention.

8581 During oral intervention on Monday, the Commission requested CHIN to seek information from the City of Toronto with respect to the future status of our transmitter facilities on the Toronto Island. Yesterday we filed with the Secretary General of the Commission two letters from the city which provide clarification on this issue. Copies of these letters are included with this presentation.

8582 The letters form the city confirm that while both Fairchild and CHIN have no renewal options under their respective leases, the city has a specific process in place to deal with these leases prior to their expiry in December 2001.

8583 As per standard operating procedure with all city tenants, the city would initiate a process approximately nine months prior to the December 2001 expiry date to begin community consultation and specific negotiations on financial and operational aspects of the lease.

8584 While the city cannot commit to a renewal at this time, the negotiating process is laid out in such a way that all of the relevant issues can be considered well in advance of the expiry of the leases.

8585 Finally, no formal communication with either Fairchild or CHIN have indicated that either lease will not be renewed.

8586 MR. JOHNNY B. LOMBARDI: Obviously one cannot predict the future with complete certainty. We cannot guarantee the ultimate outcome on our part and on Fairchild's part to successfully negotiate a new lease. However, the city has now clarified that it will begin a process "to deal with the leases so that all of the relevant issues can be considered well in advance".

8587 An equally important inference that can be drawn from these letters is that CHIN and Fairchild are unquestionably in the same boat. There are no reasonable grounds to conclude that CHIN and Fairchild will realize different outcomes with respect to the future of their lease arrangements, assuming that each party uses its best efforts to secure a renewal of their lease.

8588 If the leases cannot be renewed, we too would have little in the way of options with respect to alternative transmitter sites. This was explained in the engineering brief filed with our application which detailed the technical limitations governing our AM 1504 transmitter facilities. Therefore, we find ourselves in like circumstances to that of Fairchild.

8589 However, we submit that the city's clarification paves the way for an outcome which will enable Fairchild and CHIN to ultimately remain on the Island. What must be kept in mind is that ever possible effort will be brought to bear to achieve a successful conclusion for all parties concerned.

8590 We also note that the landlord in this case, the City of Toronto, is no ordinary landlord. The city has a real incentive to ensure that these two prominent ethnic radio services remain on the air and continue to serve their audiences.

8591 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: Nevertheless, if the Commission is still moved to grant Fairchild's application, then we submit that you must also grant CHIN's application. Otherwise, the status quo will only be preserved for Fairchild at the expense of our 1540 AM service.

8592 This could be accomplished by granting Fairchild's application for the 93.5 FM frequency which we note is Fairchild's preferred frequency while also granting our application for 740 AM.

8593 Under a scenario in which the Commission is actually persuaded that island leases will not be renewed, only these dual licensing decisions would preserve the status quo in the Toronto radio market. Granting Fairchild's application for 740 alone would result in a catastrophic termination of CHIN's service on 1540 AM.

8594 To summarize our position, we submit that the city's clarification of the lease issue now provides sufficient comfort for the Commission to examine CHIN's application and other applications proposing new services for the 740 AM frequency on their merits. It is reasonable for the Commission to conclude that Fairchild's application no longer requires consideration for either the 93.5 FM or 740 AM frequencies.

8595 Finally, a brief word in rely to some of Fairchild's concerns raised during its appearance earlier this week. It is not CHIN's objective to seek to increase the amount of programming directed to the Chinese community on our proposed 740 service, nor on our existing AM and FM services. CHIN has no plans to increase its Chinese programming beyond a daily one hour block.

8596 Fairchild cited the fact that we conducted a study with respect to listeners in the Chinese community as somehow an indication of our intention to increase the amount of Chinese programming on our current services or on 740 AM. In reply, we note that the sole purpose of conducting the survey was to assist us in better serving our existing Chinese audiences on 1540 AM and 100.7 FM.

8597 Fairchild also questions CHIN's intentions with respect to increased Chinese programming on our existing AM and FM services. Other than the proposed scheduled changes filed in our application, we are contemplating no changes to any other programming. The only increase in Chinese programming on any of CHIN's services will be during the hours of 6:00 a.m. to 7:00 a.m. on weekdays, totalling a mere five hours of additional programming directed at Chinese audiences.

8598 As we have stated, the primary impact of repositioning our services is on our own programming, namely a substantial component of our current Italian programming which we plan to move from 1540 to 740 AM. The remainder of 740's schedule and the repositioned programs on 1540 have specifically been designed to minimize the impact on other services. In fact, CHIN would be willing to accept an appropriate condition of licence with respect to our Chinese programming.

8599 For all of the reasons in this presentation, we urge the Commission to see clear to approve our application and to dismiss the concerns of the intervenors.

8600 We appreciate the opportunity to submit our comments and we would welcome any questions at this time.

8601 Thank you.

8602 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, both Mr. Lombardis and Mr. Zolf.

8603 Counsel.

8604 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

8605 For the record, Mr. Lombardi, we will admit the two letters from the City of Toronto on the record for now and we will await comments from other applicants as they come forward, if that's okay with you.

8606 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: Yes, thank you.

8607 MR. RHÉAUME: Two questions for you at this point and for the benefit of the audience, these are questions I will be raising with each and every one of the applicants as they come forward.

8608 The first one is relatively easy. Implementation by condition of licence within a year, is that acceptable?

8609 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: Yes, that would be acceptable.

8610 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you. Now, the other one has to do with alternative frequencies, especially on the AM band, what is known in engineering circles as the extended AM band. I was just wondering if you had explored with your engineers the extended AM band in terms of potential sites and workability of any frequency and the cost attached, impairment.

8611 Have you explored any of this with your engineers?

8612 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: I would have to say that recently no, we have not explored any alternate frequencies. However, we have in the past sought remedies to our deficiencies with regards to 1540 and looked at various other scenarios, all of which failed and were unacceptable.

8613 MR. RHÉAUME: Did you look at scenarios involving the extended AM band, do you recall?

8614 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: I believe in our brief we did. We filed the information on our brief in our attempts to look at alternative frequencies on the extended band, but my dad can probably answer that better than I can.

8615 MR. JOHNNY B. LOMBARDI: Our engineers have informed us all along that the extended band would not work on our present towers so that we would have to find a location before that extended band, but it would not cover all the area that we needed.

8616 It was a very low power situation and we discounted that. That's why we went after a repeater on the FM, hoping that we would get 450 watts, but we finally had to settle for 22. That was because our engineers told us the most -- the better route was to go on the repeater side.

8617 MR. RHÉAUME: Do you recall, Mr. Lombardi, if those discussions went into specific alternate sites and the costs attached?

8618 MR. JOHNNY B. LOMBARDI: I don't remember the actual costs. I just remember that the engineers said it would not cover the areas that we are looking to cover and it would be at best a very weak signal at a tremendous cost. We don't know what that cost was, of course.

8619 MR. RHÉAUME: I thank you and these are my questions at this time.

8620 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: I would just like to add that anything on the extended band from 1540's perspective would just be moving from bad to worse. The kind of engineer that we had would be during daytime would be ten kilowatt, night-time one kilowatt and those specs were for the 1610 on the extended band.

8621 MR. RHÉAUME: I thought I was finished, but did you look at 1670, for example?

8622 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: 1670. No, we didn't do any study on that. Counsel, if I may just add to that. There is evidence already on the record of this hearing from, I believe, Mr. Elder talking about the deficiencies with any transmitter facility between 1610 and 1700 which I believe was raised on February 3, discussing the limitations southbound of that frequency -- pardon me, southbound, one kilowatt at night and ten kilowatts daily and our engineer, I believe, has taken the same view as set out in our engineering brief filed in our original application.

8623 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you.

8624 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Zolf, we were just following Mr. Lombardi's advice which I recall was when he has any illness, he goes to many doctors.

8625 Thank you very much.

8626 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: I'm feeling sick right now actually.

8627 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much for your reply. That completes your participation, I guess, unless you may proceed from the back.

8628 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: Thank you very much, Madam Chair and Commissioners.

8629 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. We enjoyed having you here.

8630 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: Thank you, Madam, and thank you, Commissioners.

8631 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary, please.

8632 MR. CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

8633 I would now like to invite 914258 Ontario Limited, also known as Infinity Radio, to come forward and reply to all interventions, please.

8634 THE CHAIRPERSON: When you are ready, Mr. Ray.

8635 MR. RAY: Thank you

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

8636 MR. RAY: Madam Chair and Commissioners, good afternoon. My name is Neety Prekash Ray. On my right is Mr. Jim Robson, our Broadcast Consultant. On my left is Renu, my wife and partner in Infinity. On her left is our Marketing Consultant and partner and B consultant, Mr. Hans Jansen.

8637 On behalf of Infinity Broadcasting, I would first express our heartfelt thanks and appreciation to the 1,172 intervenors who filed letters in support of our application. Both Renu and I were moved beyond words by the many expressions of support and the passionate outcry for third language programming to their communities. The letters were thoughtful, intelligently written and reflected a good understanding of our application and the beneficial impact it would have on their communities, if approved.

8638 Madam Chair, Infinity has already responded in detail to most of the eight interventions filed in opposition to our application, including CIRV, CIAO, Fairchild and CHIN radio. We do wish to reply further to the CIRV, Fairchild and CHIN's intervention.s.

8639 First,with respect to CIRV's assertion that Toronto's ethnic communities are well served. The 22 communities involved with Infinity strongly disagree. Our application is based on the needs of the nine unserved and 13 badly underserved multicultural communities that we are targeting rather than simply duplicating what is already well served.

8640 CIRV further states that Infinity will have a serious impact on existing ethnic broadcasters. Again, this is not the case. By extending service to its 22 targeted communities, Infinity will create new radio dollars and growth in the ethnic broadcast market. As such, the impact on existing stations will be minimal as Infinity's revenue will almost exclusively accrue from new growth in the market.

8641 In response to a question from the Commission as to which of the two ethnic applicants would be the least disruptive, CHIN or Infinity, CIRV acknowledged that Infinity would have less impact on existing ethnic stations.

8642 CIRV also stated that existing ethnic broadcasters could look after the needs of these unserved and underserved multicultural communities within the Greater Toronto market.

8643 Infinity would note that current ethnic stations do not have the airtime to make any meaningful impact on unserved or underserved third language communities unless they reduce service to existing multicultural communities. A "robbing Peter to pay Paul" approach is not the answer to providing an acceptable level of quality programming service to the unserved and underserved third language communities.

8644 We would add that if existing broadcasters were really interested in expanding their service horizons within the Grater Toronto ethnic market, then they too would have answered the Commission's call for 740 AM and 93.5 FM.

8645 It is both unfair and unacceptable for over two million ethnic Canadians within the extended contours of 740 AM to remain unserved or badly underserved at the whim of existing stations who are more interested in maintaining the status quo than in extending service to those who need it most.

8646 CIRV also stated that the Commission should impose a condition of licence on Infinity with respect to not targeting the Portuguese community.

8647 In this regard, Infinity has no interest in or future intentions to include Portuguese programming in our service mix. Infinity will be focused on extending its service to the 22 cultural groups we propose to serve. We would have no difficulty with a condition of licence not to serve the Portuguese community.

8648 Finally, we take very serious issue with CIRV's claim that there is enough South Asian programming in the GTA and the South Asian community understands both Hindustani and Punjabi language based programming.

8649 First, this tired argument about the South Asian community are already well served is simply wrong. Infinity and its proposals would be foolish to file this application unless the need and service and commercial opportunities were proven. We would not have received over 1,000 letters of support from the South Asian community if their needs were already being met, nor would Toronto's South Asian community have found it necessary to revert back to cross-border tuning and advertising if the proper programming and advertising vehicles were in place in Greater Toronto.

8650 MS RAY: Madam Chair, I learned only yesterday that U.S. station WTOR has added another hour to its daily program schedule to better respond to the demand for Hindustani programming from Grater Toronto's South Asian community.

8651 Until a few days ago, WTOR was providing Hindustani programming from 8:00 to 9:00 a.m and from 3:00 to 4:00 p.m. They have extended their afternoon schedule by one hour, from 2:00 to 4:00 p.m. for a total of three hours per day and you can be rest assured that as aggressive American broadcasters, sensing a huge market opportunity, WTOR will continue adding more hours to fulfil the demands of Toronto's South Asian community.

8652 As a proud Canadian, a member of the South Asian community and an ethnic broadcaster, I find it repugnant that we have to turn to another country to address our broadcasting needs.

8653 The only segment of the South Asian community that is well served are those persons who immigrated from the Punjab state of India. In this regard, there is a ready supply of Punjabi programming which is only understood by and relevant to about one fifth of the total South Asian community of 500,000.

8654 Infinity is therefore surprised at the lack of knowledge, understanding and sensitivity shown by CIRV with respect to the South Asian community and their statement to the effect that the whole community understands both Hindustani and Punjabi.

8655 As the Commission well knows from our application and from the many letters and from the appearing intervenors yesterday, such is not the case. Whereas many Punjabi persons understand Hindustani, the South Asian community as a whole does not understand or relate to the Punjabi language.

8656 On a final note with respect to the CIRV interventions, Infinity would underline the fact that its Radio India program, complete with 61.5 hours of Hindustani programming, coexisted in the Toronto market for years without as much as a peep or complaint from these same ethnic broadcasters who today want to close ranks on Infinity because they somehow perceive us as a threat.

8657 MR. RAY: Turning next to the Fairchild intervention, it is Infinity's view that the solution to Fairchild's perceived transmitter site leasing problem lies beyond this public hearing process and the necessity to lay claim to one of the last remaining high power public broadcasting frequencies that would otherwise be used in a more productive manner in extending service and adding new programming diversity and listener choice to the many unserved multicultural communities within Greater Toronto and southern Ontario. While Infinity is not insensitive to Fairchild's situation, we are more sensitive to the unfilled programming needs of the 22 multicultural communities we hope to serve.

8658 It is Infinity's sense that the Governor in Council in directing the Commission through its Order in Council to reserve frequencies and 93.5 and 740 for the use of radio services in Toronto, and I quote, "which will contribute to the achievement of the objectives of Canada's broadcasting policy" had perhaps envisaged a different utilization of these last remaining high power frequencies than having one of them allocated to an existing licensee who may or may not have a problem with his landlord.

8659 Infinity object to Fairchild's strategy of using this highly competitive public hearing process as a bargaining tool to settle with what is essentially a commercial issue between Fairchild and the City of Toronto and between CHIN and the City of Toronto. Of course, we know now that a letter from the City of Toronto is on record which was received yesterday presumably.

8660 While the granting of 740 AM to Fairchild would be an easy and cost effective way out of its alleged leasing problem, it would be a colossal waste of a diminishing public resource, given that Fairchild by its own admission stated that the extensive service contours of 740 AM are surplus to their needs.

8661 It would also be extremely unfair to other applicants. Infinity has put forward a comprehensive ethnic broadcasting plan that will extend service, lend programming diversity, add greater listener choice, narrow the service disparity gap between multicultural communities and optimize the utilization of 740 AM's service contours, among many other public benefits.

8662 What is frustrating in all of this is that Fairchild is shadow boxing with a hypothetical landlord/tenant situation which will in all likelihood be resolved through negotiation with the City of Toronto. In the meantime, Fairchild is asking the Commission to grant them priority status over a new ethnic licensee on the basis that come December 31, 2001, they may or may not be evicted.

8663 Against this background, it's Infinity's view that Fairchild should not hold any priority status, licensee or not, over other prospective applicants for either the 93.5 FM frequency, their stated preference, or for the 740 AM frequency, whose extensive service contours are surplus to their needs.

8664 MS RAY: Madam Chair, I would only add that many broadcasters across Canada experience real problems which often translates into service deficiencies to their listening audiences. Having said that, if we invest our rapidly diminishing supply of public broadcasting frequencies in correcting such problems, then the loss of momentum and creativity and competitive balance and diversity within our Canadian broadcasting system will far outweigh the disadvantage that any given licensee may experience.

8665 CHIN Radio in both its written intervention and oral remarks last Monday has attempted to portray Infinity as amateurs who have a weak business plan, serious deficiencies in our revenue projections, an overdependence on South Asian programming and an overly optimistic rate card. They figured the final arrow through the heart would come with the suggestion that Radio India in the past had sold $7 spots in the Toronto market.

8666 Well, Madam Chair, Infinity's owners are long time professional broadcasters. Over the past 20 years we have learned our trade, honed our broadcasting skills, developed our managerial and technical resources and broadened our financial base. Infinity and its highly skilled team are ready and more than able to bring our ethnic broadcasting plan and that all it represents to fruition.

8667 MR. RAY: CHIN over the years has accumulated quite a collection of broadcasting tools within the Toronto market, including CHIN-AM 1540, an FM repeater of 1540 at 101.3 MH which operates 24 hours a day, one digital rebroadcaster for CHIN AM, CHIN FM 100.7, one digital broadcaster for CHIN FM and CHIN AM-FM are also on satellite in North America and their programs are rebroadcast via cable in Ottawa and other centres in Ontario.

8668 Hence, in terms of allotment on Toronto radio spectrum, they have not done too badly. Now they are back looking for 740 AM in order to complete their ensemble within the Greater Toronto/Southern Ontario market.

8669 By comparison, for the past decade Infinity through its Radio India program lived in the vagaries of a brokerage agreement with a Niagara Falls station, then CKTB St. Catharines, and finally, CIAO before having to leave the air last summer.

8670 Despite the pitfalls and uncertainties of brokered broadcasting, Radio India rose from nothing to become one of the most successful radio programs in Canadian broadcasting. Before the demise of our agreement with CKTB, the average quarter hour ratings of Radio India outstripped many mainstream stations' numbers and ran circles around CHIN AM's numbers.

8671 Last week, Madam Chair, on a lighter note, you suggested that Mr. Lenny Lombardi may have a future as a consultant. Well, Madam Chair, on an equally lighter note, Infinity wishes to advise Mr. Lombardi that his future as a consultant will be short lived unless he vastly improves upon his mathematical skills and curbs his imagination with respect to $7 per spot.

8672 In reply to this notion, I would begin by station that Radio India generated $430,000 in revenues in each of its 1996 and 1997 operating years.

8673 Had we been dealing in $7 spots, as Mr. Lombardi would have you believe, Radio India would have had to sell 61,4428 --

8674 MR. CUSSONS: Excuse me. Mr. Ray and Madam Chairperson, we are now closing in on 13 minutes. If we could perhaps summarize for the panel, please.

8675 MR. ROBSON: Madam Chair, if I'm not mistaken, the previous applicant well exceeded that amount of time. We defer to your wishes though, however.

8676 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Robson, there was a specific reason for the extra five minutes. All we require is that you reasonably summarize the rest of your presentation. If we start -- you know, there are 13 applicants and there was a specific request for a specific reason for the previous one, so I wouldn't want that to be the reference point.

8677 It is just a question of -- I hope these two minutes don't count -- of following the rules to the extent possible so that we don't get into a process which no longer has parameters.

8678 MR. RAY: I will just complete that paragraph and then I will proceed to my concluding remarks, Madam Chair.

8679 Had we been dealing with a $7 spot, as Mr. Lombardi would have you believe, Radio India would have had to sell 61,428 spots each year. That is 1,181 spots per week, 169 spots per day, in a radio program that aired only 31 hours per week during regulated hours and 30.5 hours during unregulated hours.

8680 As such, all commercials were played during the regulated hours of the daily programs as the hours after midnight were commercial-free. Hence, according to our math, 169 spots in five hours is about 34 spots her hour, which represents 150 per cent sellout ratio.

8681 Madam Chair, I don't think there is time so I will just go to the final point here.

8682 Despite the efforts of a few to convince you otherwise, Infinity has put forth an ethnic broadcasting plan that squarely meets the objectives of the Broadcasting Act and the Commission's ethnic broadcasting policy.

8683 It is a plan that will provide new programming diversity and greater listener choice. It will embrace and promote Canadian talent and its ongoing development. It will introduce a new element of competitive balance while narrowing the service disparity gap within Toronto's ethnic broadcasting sector.

8684 It will extend service to the unserved and badly underserved and it will optimize the utilization of 740 AM and its full service potential. These are the very timbers upon which the Commission has framed its goals and objectives for the Canadian broadcasting system.

8685 Madam Chair and Commissioners, Infinity is ethnic radio with a difference and committed to making a difference. We respectfully ask you to grant us that opportunity on 740 AM.

8686 We thank you for your courtesy and attention during this long and difficult process and we wish you well in your deliberations.

8687 Thank you, merci beaucoup, shukriya, all the best.

8688 THE CHAIRPERSON: I wouldn't want to start a new precedent, but correct me if I'm wrong counsel, but this document will go on the record. What you have not had time to pronounce will not be on the transcript, but don't come with a big document this thick because it won't get past us.

8689 Thank you.

8690 Mr. Rhéaume, do you have any correction to make?

8691 MR. RHÉAUME: No corrections.

8692 THE CHAIRPERSON: And do you have questions?

8693 MR. RHÉAUME: Just a few questions.

8694 I guess nobody is going to take me up on my offer to discuss alternate frequencies on their allocated 10 or 12 minutes, so I will ask you the same question.

8695 Have you looked at the extended AM band at all? Have you had any discussions with your consulting engineers on feasibility, cost studies, location sites, limitations and so on and so forth that you would like to share with us?

8696 MR. RAY: No, we haven't. In fact, our business plan and the application is predicated on the contours of 740 AM.

8697 MR. RHÉAUME: Final question. Implementation within a year by condition of licence. Would you be happy with that?

8698 MR. RAY: I'm sorry, I can't hear you. Could you repeat that.

8699 MR. RHÉAUME: If the Commission were to grant you a licence and impose a condition of licence that you have to be on air within a year.

8700 MR. RAY: I accept that condition.

8701 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you.

8702 Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

8703 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Ray, Mrs. Ray and your colleagues. We will see you in the audience, but this is your last appearance before us, in this process anyway.

8704 MRS. RAY: Thank you.

8705 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary, please.

8706 MR. CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

8707 I now would like to invite Fairchild Radio Toronto Limited to come forward and respond to all interventions, please.

8708 THE CHAIRPERSON: Proceed when you are ready.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

8709 MR. WONG: Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, Fairchild Radio is pleased to have this opportunity to respond to a number of issues raised by other applicants. We have already filed a written reply and, accordingly, we will restrict our comments to those items requiring additional clarification.

8710 For the record, I am Calvin Wong, General Manager of Fairchild Radio, and beside me is Tracey Pearce, our legal counsel.

8711 Before I turn to those matters, Fairchild Radio would like to thank the many individuals and associations who filed letters in support of our applications. These positive interventions reveal the strong connection CHKT has with the many communities it serves and highlights the important role it plays in the multicultural, multilingual Toronto of today.

8712 CHIN has suggested that the situation faced by Fairchild Radio regarding its lease on Toronto Island and the impact of any termination is no different from its own. We disagree with this conclusion.

8713 The mere fact that the present term for both leases ends on the same day is only part of the equation. CHIN cannot know the exact circumstances faced by CHKT, nor can Fairchild fully appreciate those of CHIN. There is no way that CHIN can definitively state that it faces identical circumstances.

8714 Moreover, even if both CHIN and Fairchild are required to vacate their Toronto Island transmitter sites, the repercussions for each may be very different.

8715 Elder Engineering and Industry Canada have both confirmed that there is no alternative transmitter site which could deliver a viable signal on AM 1430 to the communities CHKT must reach in order to survive. CHIN has provided no such evidence with respect to AM 1540. It may be that a mainland transmitter site could deliver adequate coverage for CHIN at its current frequency.

8716 Finally, CHIN has sought approval to establish a third station at 740 AM. Thus, even if both Fairchild and CHIN are required to vacate the Island and even if both are unable to continue utilizing their existing system frequency from a new transmitter site, CHIN would still be left with one, or possibly two, viable frequencies. In contrast, Fairchild believe CHKT would go off the air unless it was awarded access to one of the frequencies it now seeks.

8717 CHIN has also stated that they have had no indication that their lease will not be renewed, that the issue is hypothetical and that this is a people issue which they are sure can be resolved. We disagree.

8718 Obviously, it is in CHIN's interest to minimize the difficulties Fairchild faces with its transmitter site lease as our application is competitive with their own. We also believe CHIN can afford to be less concerned about circumstances on the Island. They already have two frequencies and, should they be awarded 740 AM, the effects of an eviction would not have the devastating repercussions Fairchild expects. Indeed, CHIN suggested that 740 AM would solve many of the technical difficulties they have faced on AM 1540.

8719 Furthermore, CHIN has not produced definitive evidence that its lease or Fairchild's will be renewed. Thus their assurances that they view this as a people issue does not provide Fairchild with much comfort.

8720 Following inquiries by Fairchild and CHIN, City of Toronto staff have provided the Commission with written clarification regarding the position of property management personnel. While we appreciate the city's rapid response, the correspondence reflects the limitations of staff to address the root of Fairchild's concern.

8721 In their letter, city personnel have confirmed the procedure for negotiating a new lease and outlined the timeline for initiating that process. However, they have not detailed much of what that process entails since key steps lay beyond the scope of their authority. Let me take a moment to set out this process in order to establish the basis for Fairchild's belief that continuing on the Island will not be an option.

8722 We have been advised that in the newly amalgamated city, municipal staff do not have the power to determine whether or not a new lease will be negotiated. Councillors for the ward in which the property is located must be advised that a party seeks a new lease and provided with the opportunity to review the situation. These councillors may then pursue a variety of options, from establishing certain terms for the new lease to holding public consultations.

8723 City staff advises us that they cannot commence negotiations until the relevant councillors have indicated they are agreeable to a new lease. If these councillors advise city staff that a new lease should not be offered, then no negotiation is pursued and no lease is available.

8724 While the full city council could subsequently decide to offer a new lease, it would be highly unusual for it to reverse the denial by the local politicians involved.

8725 Given this structure, city staff simply cannot provide a definitive statement regarding the future prospect for a new lease. As Mr. Pittiglio states in his letter, "I cannot make a firm commitment that these leases will in fact be renewed".

8726 As we have indicated, it is this political process involving the local councillors and the public which Fairchild believes will result in the failure to secure a new lease. Needless to say, we cannot provide the Commission with any definitive statement from the relevant councillors in this regard.

8727 First, no formal public consultations have been held to date, although the outcry regarding the proximity of the transmitters to the school makes it clear where the Islanders stand.

8728 Secondly, a municipal election will be held in November. The provincial government has passed legislation reducing the number of wards and council seats in Toronto. As a result, incumbents will be running against each other in the remaining wards and certain councillors will lose their position.

8729 We understand that following the election, only one councillor rather than two will represent the Toronto Islands. In this climate, councillors are unwilling to take a definitive position on the record, particularly one with unfavourable consequences. Nevertheless, based on conversations and events to date, Fairchild has concluded that a new lease will not be offered.

8730 Finally, CHIN has suggested that Fairchild's applications are premature. We disagree. We have no choice but to be here well in advance of the lease termination. Given the findings of our engineer and Industry Canada, the AM 1430 frequency will not allow us to serve our audience unless we remain on the Island. In that case, another frequency becomes the only option for preserving CHKT.

8731 It appears that all parties agree the Commission is considering the last available frequencies for Toronto in this hearing. As a result, Fairchild's participation was imperative. If we delayed our applications until the city had unequivocally stated that no new lease would be provided, there would be no frequency available to sustain us.

8732 In closing, we wish to confirm that CHKT has revised its schedule to ensure full compliance with all its conditions of licence. We apologize for the inadvertent scheduling of limited Mandarin programming which resulted in our temporary failure to comply. A confirmation letter has been filed with the Commission in this regard.

8733 Now I would ask Ms Pearce to add a few remarks.

8734 MS PEARCE; Madam Chair, Commissioners, the filing of letters from the city may prompt intervention-like submissions by other applicants. Fairchild does not object to the filing of the letters, but would ask that it have the opportunity to file written reply comments simply with respect to lease issues raised in reply by other applicants should they arise and should Fairchild see fit.

8735 MR. WONG: We appreciate the Commission's attention throughout this proceeding and would be pleased to answer any questions that you may have.

8736 THE CHAIRPERSON: Counsel.

8737 MR. RHÉAUME: Ms Pearce, I'm not sure if I understood the gist of your last comment. You would like additional time to file written comments on what exactly?

8738 MS PEARCE: Well, my understanding is that the letter from the City of Toronto addressed to CHIN and to -- sorry, referring to both CHIN and to Fairchild has been provided to all other applicants. My concern is that may prompt comments with respect to Fairchild's applications which are more intervention-like in nature.

8739 I simply ask that Fairchild would have a reasonable opportunity to respond to respond to just those comments on just those issues should they arise.

8740 MR. RHÉAUME: My advice would be to take it under advisement for now and come back when we wrap up, if that's acceptable.

8741 THE CHAIRPERSON: You are suggesting an additional few minutes before us should oral comments be made with regard to this material.

8742 MR. PEARCE: Either oral or written comments.

8743 THE CHAIRPERSON: But you are going to be here.

8744 MS PEARCE: Yes.

8745 THE CHAIRPERSON: You will hear applicants in reply.

8746 MS PEARCE: Yes.

8747 THE CHAIRPERSON: My understanding is your request is primarily if this is addressed by other applicants, you request an opportunity to reply to those comments about that material.

8748 MS PEARCE: That is correct.

8749 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. And it would not foreclose, of course, asking for written reply, but we are expecting that you will participate in this afternoon's oral hearing. We are always anxious to terminate the proceeding as quickly as possible if it can accommodate everybody's legitimate requests.

8750 Counsel.

8751 MR. RHÉAUME: Merci. If I go to page 4 of your comments just to explore that issue of the City of Toronto position, you say:

8752 Is it fair to say that you have no hard evidence of this other than discussions that could have been informal or formal?

8753 MR. WONG: That is correct.

8754 MR. RHÉAUME: So it seems to me, and correct me if I'm wrong, that right now we have the letters from the City of Toronto, the one that was filed with your application which essentially states that the lease will not be renewed as of right. Then we have the latest City of Toronto letter basically saying there will be a process, but you are saying that the bureaucrats or the staff of the city is not allowed to do this at this time. Is that your position?

8755 MS PEARCE: To engage in the process? I'm sorry, I just want to make sure I'm clear on your question.

8756 MR. RHÉAUME: I'm the one that's not sure if I understood your position. Your position, as I understood it, was that the February 9 letter by the City of Toronto where they say there will be a process, did you say that the city staff cannot commit to that, that there will be a process, because we agreed that they have not committed to renewing your lease. That's obvious.

8757 MS PEARCE: Our understanding of the process is that the process is initiated by a request for a lease renewal or a new lease and that the next step in that process would be notification of the relevant councillors and then following whatever steps the relevant councillors would take, then the negotiation of a new lease may or may not occur, depending on the recommendation of the councillors.

8758 The process broadly defined in terms of someone saying "I would like a new lease" and then the city staff notifying the councillors, of course, could be initiated by city staff. We are simply saying that there is what we have called a "political component" to this decision which is outside of the scope of authority of staff.

8759 MR. RHÉAUME: Ms Pearce, I'm sure you will appreciate that the Commission has no expertise in city politics whatsoever. The only evidence which we have in front of us at this point is the correspondence from the City of Toronto, which includes the letter you filed and the two additional letters we have.

8760 We have nothing else to rely on and you are saying that you have had informal discussions. Now it seems that your position is that there is going to be some local politics involved and we believe that that's how it works. I hope you can agree that this is by no means hard evidence for the Commission to consider.

8761 MS PEARCE: Well, I think that Fairchild's position is that it has come forward with the Commission and made its case, explaining the circumstances in which it finds itself and that it has worked very hard to address the Commission's concerns and certainly can appreciate some frustration about particulars which Fairchild itself has encountered.

8762 MR. RHÉAUME: Your hard work, Mr. Wong, is not in dispute here at all.

8763 If you are granted the licences you are seeking, would you be on air within a year? Would you accept a condition of licence in that respect?

8764 MR. WONG: Yes.

8765 MR. RHÉAUME: Now, I believe you have addressed this, but I will ask the question again about the extended AM band. If you have looked at the extended AM band with your engineers possible sites and suitable land, costs involved relocating, coverage --

8766 MR. WONG: Yes. We did explore with our consulting engineering, Cordonelda, on the expanded AM band. However, we find that with this low power and the different contour, it cannot serve the existing CHKT audience.

8767 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you.

8768 MR. WONG: Thank you.

8769 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

8770 THE CHAIRPERSON: Counsel, are you satisfied that you have had proper opportunity to respond to CHIN's comments on this lease issue?

8771 MS PEARCE: Yes.

8772 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Thank you very much.

8773 Mr. Secretary, please.

8774 We will hear one more reply and then take a break.

8775 MR. CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

8776 I would now like to invite Arnold Auguste to come forward and reply to all interventions.

8777 THE CHAIRPERSON: Welcome back. Proceed when you are ready.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

8778 MR. AUGUSTE: Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Good afternoon to you and to the Members of the Commission Panel and to the staff, ladies and gentlemen.

8779 My name again is Arnold Auguste and with me today are Daniel Caudeiron, Robert Wood, Mrs. June Veecock, Denise Jones and Bob Templeton.

8780 In our reply this afternoon, we wish to respond to interventions opposing our application from CKMW Radio Ltd., Durham Radio Inc., and Milestone Communications. These interventions can be summarized on the basis of allegations made in connection with our signal, Canadian Talent Development initiatives, business plan and diversity.

8781 MR. TEMPLETON: Milestone and CKMW intervened on technical grounds. Milestone argued that our application is premised on the licensing of a frequency under circumstances not contemplated by the Commission's call. This is not the case at all.

8782 In its call for applications, the Commission in fact called for applications from parties:

8783 This is in fact what we did. We also suggested a possible alternative scenario that could enable SHARE FM to meet its objectives, that is provide a first class, high quality signal to the visible minority communities throughout the GTA.

8784 Should the Commission decide in favour of the single frequency option, we are totally prepared to accept 93.5 FM unexpanded, based on the parameters outlined in our technical brief, without the 740 AM signal to augment our coverage.

8785 Of course, Madam Chair, we urge the Commission to share our goal of fully serving the visible minority communities of the GTA with the best possible signal. We would undertake in such a scenario to vigorously pursue technical solutions that will enable us to make this possible.

8786 MS JONES: CKMW commented that some of our funding would go to the development of another Canadian radio station and so would not qualify as a legitimate Canadian Talent Development expense.

8787 We believe that any concern in this regard is outweighed by its public benefit, one that addresses a key objective of the Broadcasting Act, that is:

8788 We believe that it is appropriate and consistent with Canadian broadcast policy to qualify any funds directed to the development of aboriginal broadcasting as a desirable public benefit, even if it is not counted as CTD. We do, however, commit to spending the money in either way and we will gladly accept a condition of licence to this effect. Madam Chair, we have proposed this initiative because we are convinced this is the right thing to do. We hope that you will share our viewpoint.

8789 CKMW also opposed our application on the grounds that funds used to retain the services of Daniel Cauldeiron as our Director of Canadian Talent Development do not qualify as a CTD initiative.

8790 As indicated in our response to questions from the panel, if the Commission prefers not to qualify this expenditure as a legitimate CTD expense, we will use the $50,000 to augment the $80,000 in seed money already proposed for a total of $130,000 annually to help local urban/dance music artists rent studio time for the development of new music.

8791 MR. WOOD: CKMW and Durham raised questions about our business plan.

8792 Our plan is based on a well-financed proposal that features $8 million in financing and exceedingly conservative revenue projections of only $2.6 million in year one. In the circumstances, SHARE FM is much better equipped than any other applicant to meet its business and public interest objectives regardless of the frequency granted.

8793 MR. CAULDEIRON: CKMW alleged that SHARE FM adds no diversity to the market. Further, the intervenor cited the high level of duplication of titles and artists.

8794 SHARE FM conducted an analysis of the music played on CIDC FM and CISS FM during the week of 20 September 1999 to 27 September 1999. As the Commission will note on its copy of the analysis, less than 1.5 per cent of the music broadcast on each of these stations was featured on the proposed playlist submitted by SHARE FM. In other words, at least 98.5 per cent of the music we proposed was not heard on existing stations during the week that followed the filing of our application.

8795 Perhaps a description of our musical mix will also help to clarify the diversity that our proposed station will contribute to Toronto.

8796 Our sound is best compared to the blend of music a club DJ presents to his or her audience. Any DJ worth his or her salt is looking to play the newest, hottest urban/dance music while paying respect to what has gone before. Each song is treated equally and played alongside each other and while a DJ at times will play a group of songs with similar themes or tempos, for the most part their skill is in the fusing of different sounds and styles.

8797 A DJ will find just the right moment in a soca track to cue into a raga number, then flip straight to a zouk riddim, then slide into some Asian dub, switch on some Algerian rai, mix in a touch of Bhangra and then return to this continent with an underground hip hop joint from some Halifax unknowns.

8798 This would just be the beginning. We will also mix in classic soul and R&B from artists like The Whispers, Montreal's Mac Thornhill and Toronto's Eric Mercury and Carl Harvey. Then it's on to some breakbeat, some trip hop and disco house before closing the circle with some mereng-rap that leads into a rapso number and then we come right back to the soca. Full circle. DJ magic.

8799 Complementing this fusion of sound, knowledgeable announcers will identify these gems and enlighten the listener with interesting background information about our Canadian artists. The end result is a melodic, blended program of diverse sounds from diverse artists playing to a diverse audience, the SHARE sound.

8800 MS VEECOCK: In addition to diversity of music, SHARE FM also represents diversity of audience, diversity of news and spoken word perspectives, diversity of staff, diversity of ownership and diversity of benefits.

8801 In recent decisions related to new service for Victoria, Kelowna, B.C., and London, Ontario, the Commission indicated that the factors relevant to the licensing of new radio stations include:

8803 Madam Chair and Commissioners on the panel, Toronto's diversity lies not in the size of its Black community, but rather in the combined size of all of its visible minority communities. Taken together, these communities represent nearly 50 per cent of the population.

8804 For this reason, our approach is based on the Canadian multiracial model of CITY-TV for it is only by reflecting the full spectrum of visible minority communities that SHARE FM will truly reflect the diversity and distinctiveness of the world's most multicultural city.

8805 MR. AUGUSTE: Madam Chair, why SHARE FM? Our application is the only one proposing a station that will address the needs and interests of both the Black and other visible minority communities in the GTA as an integral part of the new mainstream reality of Toronto.

8806 In respect to the Order in Council, we are the only major applicant that addresses both the multicultural and multiracial nature of Canadian society and the special place of aboriginal people in our society. Further, we represent a totally new voice in the Toronto broadcasting system.

8807 Madam Chair, as we sought to gain a licence that would be inclusive of all the aspirations of this diverse city, we chose not to use the obvious advantage afforded by SHARE Newspaper, with a readership of some 140,000 weekly, as a tool to solicit public support. We focused on a new vision and a solid application that could stand on its own merit. We believe that we have succeeded in doing this.

8808 In over 25 years in the media industry as a journalist in the city, I have considered my work not just as a business, but as a responsibility. I wish to assure you that the SHARE team will continue to demonstrate this public responsibility should SHARE FM be given the licence.

8809 We have been responsible in print and we will be responsible on the airwaves, implementing programs and operational policies that respect and represent our diverse communities as we adhere to the CRTC guidelines. I promise to promote respect and harmony.

8810 On behalf of our team, we encourage you to share our vision and help make SHARE 93.5 FM a reality.

8811 Madam Chair, at this time I would like to thank you and the panel and the staff for your patience over the last two weeks. It has been a long two weeks. For me it's a new experience. It has been a very interesting one. I have learned a lot. I thank you for the way you have dealt with us. I think you have been very fair.

8812 I wish you all the best. You have a long road ahead of you in your deliberations, but I hope that as you wrap up this weekend you will get a nice good weekend's rest.

8813 All the best as you return to your homes. Thank you very much on behalf of all of us.

8814 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Auguste, and your team.

8815 Counsel has some questions, I believe.

8816 MR. RHÉAUME: Mr. Auguste, the same questions. Implementation within a year by condition of licence. Would that be okay with you?

8817 MR. AUGUSTE: Yes.

8818 MR. RHÉAUME: How about other frequencies for the service. Have you explored this? The extended AM band. Have you explored this with your engineers at all in terms of costs and feasibility and transmitter site and land and so on and so forth?

8819 MR. WOOD: Counsel, we have not simply because we don't think that the AM band is really appropriate for a music service.

8820 MR. RHÉAUME: Fair enough. Thank you.

8821 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Wood. I'm glad that you haven't looked at the Island as a site.

8822 Thank you very much. We have enjoyed having you with us.

8823 We will take a 12 minute break and be back here at 20 to four. We intend to be back here at 20 to four because we still have some ways to go before the end of the day.

8824 Thank you.

--- Upon recessing at 1525 / Suspension à 1525

--- Upon resuming at 1540 / Reprise à 1540

8825 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary, please.

8826 MR. CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

8827 I would now like to invite Mr. Denham Jolly and his team to respond to all interventions.

8828 Mr. Jolly.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

8829 MR. JOLLY: Thank you, sir.

8830 Madam Chairperson and Members of the Commission, I have here with me Mr. Carl Redhead, Kaan Yiggit, Sylvia Searles, and in the back, the famous Farley Flect and Zanana Akaade. I will start my presentation.

8831 We are here to respond to three of the interventions presented to the Commission earlier at this hearing. Our comments will relate to issues raised by Durham Radio Inc. as well as CKMW Radio, which chose to intervene against the Milestone application, once under the Rainbow Radio banner as a competitive applicant and the second time as licence holder for CIDC FM Orangeville through ownership of Dufferin Communications.

8832 There are recurring themes in the three interventions which require a response. These include issues related to market demand, the distinctiveness of the urban format, music diversity and market impact of Milestone FM. In addition, we would like to clean up a couple of other points.

8833 Carl.

8834 MR. REDHEAD: First, the issue of market demand.

8835 Our research found that there is a large potential audience for the proposed Milestone station. The weekly audience reach for the station will be over 550,000 persons in the Toronto area. These projections were based on rigorous scientific research conducted by an experienced media research firm, this according to the accepted radio research practices which met quality standards. It is significant, in our view, that none of the interventions provided any concrete evidence to refute the size or characteristics of the potential audience for Milestone.

8836 The related second issue concerns the distinctiveness of the urban format and diversity of the music Milestone will provide. The argument is made that urban music is already available in Toronto and that Milestone's urban format will merely provide music that is already available in the market on CHR stations. Milestone takes exception to these suggestions.

8837 All industry stakeholders, record companies, agents, scholars and artists who appeared yesterday told you that they consider urban music to be a distinct format. So do the major trade publications, including Billboard and Radio & Records. There is a separate music category for the Grammys and the Junos. The representative for CIRPA said and I quote:

8838 A CHR format is not a substitute for an authentic urban format.

8839 CIDC FM Orangeville, the only intervening station against Milestone, is a CHR station with exclusive focus on hit music. CICD's on-air station identifier is Hits 103.5. They also use the slogan "Today's best hits" on their official letterhead, billboards and corporate vehicles. A representative from CIDC on Monday confirmed this observation with the following statement:

8840 In its intervention, CIDC FM presented specific percentages regarding duplication of Milestone's music. Milestone submits that the analysis provided by CIDC is misleading. This is because CIDC FM compared a small sample of Milestone's artists to their full playlist and this is not a valid comparison.

8841 In October and December 1999, we analyzed the Toronto radio market and can therefore categorically state that Milestone will add significant music diversity to the Toronto airwaves based on four key indicators: One, uniqueness; two, playlist size; three, repeat factor, and, four, number of Canadian artists.

8842 First, uniqueness. Over 60 per cent of the artists on Milestone will be unique to the Toronto market, that is not played on any of the three CHR stations during the broadcast week.

8843 Second, size of the playlist. Milestone will provide one of the most diverse playlists on radio in a major market in Canada in terms of artists featured and distinct musical selections presented. Milestone will play about 400 distinct selections during the broadcast week, all by urban artists.

8844 In contrast, a typical Toronto area CHR station plays an average of only 235 distinct selections during the broadcast week. Only a subset of these 235 selections are by urban artists.

8845 Third, repeat factor. Milestone will have a lower repeat factor due to a larger, more diverse playlist. For example, CISS FM in Toronto repeated top hit songs an average of 51 times during the broadcast week.

8846 While high repetition builds familiarity in sales, it limits diversity because top hits dominate the airwaves at the expense of new up and coming artists. Milestone will provide a balance by providing a significantly lower repeat factor, about a maximum of 35 per week. This will mean more airtime for more artists.

8847 Fourth, the number of Canadian artists. Milestone will provide an additional 30 hours of airtime in Toronto exclusively for Canadian urban artists. In December 1999, three CHR stations combined featured current songs by about 15 Canadian urban artists. Milestone on its own will feature over three times this number.

8848 In addition, there are qualitative differences between Milestone's music philosophy and that of CHR stations. We will be the first with new urban artists on our playlist, long before they make it to the charts or to CHR playlists. As the specialist in the area, we will represent more depth and breadth of selection compared to the generalist approach of CHR stations.

8849 Two final points on how Milestone will differ from CHR stations.

8850 You have heard from the music industry represent this week that "listening to CHR stations is like tuning into a 14-year olds birthday party". Fall 1999 BBM results confirm this observation. On average, CHR stations derive about 58 per cent of their tuning from 12 to 24 age group. Milestone's format focuses on older with 18 to 34 as the core and especially those 25 to 34. Milestone will of course provide a significant amount of spoken word programming not currently available in the market from CHR stations.

8851 Against this background, Milestone submits that the intervenors in general and specifically CIDC FM Orangeville overstate the potential impact of Milestone's entry into the market. We believe it is significant that two CHR stations, CISS FM Toronto and CING FM Burlington, have chosen not to intervene against Milestone.

8852 Milestone also wishes to underline that our application and our response to deficiency questions on November 4, 1999, have been quite clear on the issue of potential market impact and the source of revenues for the Milestone station. In this regard, the intervenors to Milestone questioned the significance of WBLK's market presence and the ability of Milestone to repatriate audience and advertising dollars.

8853 Some characterize WBLK as insignificant and marginal in terms of market presence. These assessments are a matter of relative perspective. WBLK has a market share of 1 per cent according to the Fall 1999 BBMs and a significant audience of 168,600 in the Toronto area. Repatriation of this listening audience will account for about one quarter of total Milestone listenership.

8854 While Milestone's business plan does not rely heavily on revenues from WBLK, we will eventually completely repatriate audience and revenues flowing south of the border. Independent estimates, researched by Air Time Sales, put the revenue base for WBLK from the Toronto in the order of $1 million to $1.5 million per year.

8855 You heard one intervenor quote the WBLK sales manager who lowballed the ad revenue from the Toronto market. Under the circumstances, why would he say anything else? In the past three days we have talked to just seven advertisers who have spent $249,000 annually with WBLK. We have these supporting letters and we would be happy to put them on the file if the Commission feels they are helpful.

8856 MR. JOLLY: We heard interventions regarding the overall integrity of Milestone's business plan. Milestone is projecting total advertising revenues of $3.9 million in year one based on a projected 3.4 per cent share of the market. These are achievable targets, verified by independent sources. Our minority shareholder, Standard Radio, also considers these projections to be realistic.

8857 A point raised about Milestone's relationship with Standard Radio also requires a response. Intervenors suggested wrongly that Milestone may be entering into a Local Management Agreement with Standard. We understand that an LMA involves the integration of several operational components of two radio stations, often involving the technical, sales, promotion and general administrative activities.

8858 Milestone and Standard will enter into a sales agreement, nothing more. Management, programming, promotions, news, recruitment and hiring and other functions will remain separate and strictly under the unanimous control of Milestone Radio.

8859 A final point raised by Rainbow involves the technical aspects of the Milestone signal. The intervention suggested that Milestone would not be able to provide service to the Black community because a significant portion lives outside the three millivolt contour of the station.

8860 Our coverage map, detailing two contours, one at three millivolt and the other at 500 microvolt, meets Industry Canada's standards. It is also accepted in the industry that the larger contour establishes the realistic marketing area of an FM station. In fact, it can also be verified that listeners beyond the larger contour will also hear the signal.

8861 Second, Milestone will provide diversity in ownership and its programming goes well beyond Toronto's vibrant Black community and is inclusive. The research shows that Milestone will attract a diverse listenership from all communities, regardless of race, colour or creed, especially those from the 18 to 34 demographic.

8862 The profile of our potential audience is 21 per cent African and Caribbean origins, 16 per cent South Asians and Southeast Asians and 57 per cent European backgrounds. Look closely at our employment equity plans and definitions. They ensure the recruitment and selection of a diverse workforce.

8863 In addition, as detailed in our application, Milestone will provide programming specifically designed to attract and involve a multicultural, multiracial, in other words, an inclusive audience. All of this is clearly documented in our application.

8864 Milestone will become the chat room for intercultural understanding. Achieving this will bring the new voices of under-represented groups to the airwaves and, as you will recall, we have already detailed our commitment to ensuring balance in our programming.

8865 Madam Chair, Commissioners, our application fits the terms of your call and is also a natural extension of the Commission's policies for the development of Canadian talent.

8866 Since the 1970s, the Commission has used specific program formats and Canadian content regulations to the benefit of the Canadian music industry. The careers of Anne Murray, Celine Dion, Shania Twain, Sarah McLachlan, Bryan Adams and Alanis Morissette are but a few of the results of those policies.

8867 Milestone wants to participate in building the careers of the next generation of Canadian stars in the urban format. We have the vision, the competence, the commitment and the resources.

8868 Finally, Madam Chair, I would like to take this opportunity to thank the over 7,000 people who took the time to write letters and petitions to us. Of course, we would like to thank your supporting staff and the Commissioners Noël, Grauer, Williams, and of course you, Madam, Commissioner Williams, Commissioner Pennefather and Commissioner Cardozo, and Commissioner Wilson.

8869 I would particularly like to thank you for the way you have bent over backwards in conducting these hearings with equanimity and fairness.

8870 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Jolly. I didn't know I had such agility.

8871 MR. JOLLY: You would be surprised.

8872 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Jolly and Mr. Redhead.

8873 Counsel, please.

8874 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

8875 Mr. Jolly, just one clarification at this time about the LMAs. These regulations are relatively new. They have been in place about three months. If the Commission were to consider, if you are licensed, that there is a requirement for a condition of licence, I assume you wouldn't have any problem in that regard. Is that fair?

8876 MR. JOLLY: I'm sorry, sir. I didn't hear the question clearly.

8877 MR. RHÉAUME: You address the issue of LMAs in your response. If the Commission were to consider that the arrangements you have with Standard require a condition of licence, can I assume that you don't have a difficulty with that.

8878 MR. JOLLY: No, no difficulty at all, counsel.

8879 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you. Implementation within one year by condition of licence.

8880 MR. JOLLY: Absolutely. Nine months.

8881 MR. RHÉAUME: Final question. Did you explore other frequencies on the extended AM band?

8882 MR. JOLLY: No, counsel, we did not.

8883 MR. RHÉAUME: Fair enough. Thank you.

8884 MR. JOLLY: Thank you.

8885 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Jolly and your team. We have enjoyed seeing you again.

8886 Mr. Secretary, please.

8887 MR. CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

8888 Next we will hear reply to all interventions by Mr. Andy McNabb, please.

8889 THE CHAIRPERSON: Order, please.

8890 Mr. McNabb.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

8891 MR. McNABB: Madam Chair, Commissioners, CRTC colleagues. My name is Andy McNabb. I am replying to the written interventions of CHIN and CIRPA as well as reaffirming some topics that were discussed in the questions of last week.

8892 A few key points to remember what may be the top considerations for awarding not just one, but two distinct licences to serve the Christian market here in Toronto. As many other applicants are, I'm trying to bring something to Toronto something that's very distinct, diverse, but also unduplicated. I think that's a real key word here. We are bringing balance to a Toronto radio spectrum that was missed out in the matters of faith for decades upon decades upon decades.

8893 Considering that up to 74 per cent of Torontonians identify themselves as Christians, it makes for the largest unserved cultural group, characterized by two distinct audiences, one wanting music and one wanting talk. The majority of the programming is local and most of the local talk is balanced.

8894 We have got a very pervasive cultural indicator: 20,000 Canadian churches, 4,500 within 50 miles of Toronto with 1,512 within the Toronto CMA. Again, that's more than all the bars, cultural halls, nightclubs, dance clubs and taverns combined.

8895 We are looking to bring the greatest incremental use of each signal by virtue of representation of our audiences both in and outside the CMA, plus the airplay and promotion of the largest number of new and unduplicated Canadian artists.

8896 The One Million Dollar Miracle in direct contributions for two licences combined together, which makes for over $8 million in total Canadian talent benefits direct and indirect. We have a $600,000 solution in direct contributions for any one licence. Over $3.3 million in total Canadian talent benefits on AM, over $4 million on FM, an extensively localized Christian talk radio with the message of hope, locally produced Christian programming filled with lyrics of love and compassion, radio that doesn't tear people down, but lifts people up with words of exhortation, edification and spiritual comfort, totally unduplicated in the Toronto market.

8897 These two applications are designed as stand alone applications unto their own right, viable unto themselves, but by licensing both to us, you are providing a comprehensive service that generates a dual benefit, meeting the needs of Christian radio listeners.

8898 In terms of clarifying the programming, AM 740 is predominantly talk and teaching with some music. To take you through the programming day, lots of local surveillance and Christian music in the morning and serving the interests of listeners of faith. Nine to noon, local and national church and ministry programs to whom we sell time. The afternoons are hours upon hours of open line talk shows, including Access 740 which embraces our most intensively source multi-faith commitments, including Faith Forum.

8899 There's more surveillance programming following into the afternoon drive and evenings which is complemented by local church and national ministry programs. Our different afternoon drive and evening programs feature more balance, open-line talk programming, including Relationship Radio, Men of Integrity, Women of the Word, More than Overcomers, Capital Connection, Heartbeat, Reach Out, and more, all locally produced in studio.

8900 Again, just to give you a picture of the heart behind this, in order to give you a benchmark of reference, it's the programs with the type of sweetness and caring and compassion that we see on television with David Mainse. Although he isn't scheduled to be on the radio with us, you get the idea for where this is headed.

8901 It's Toronto personalities for the first time on Toronto radio going several steps beyond that, providing the first ever round-the-clock Toronto perspective on issues of faith for Toronto listeners.

8902 FM 93.5 is predominantly Christian music with some Christian talk. Most significantly, one hour of Access 93.5, open line, each afternoon with all the balance requirements, plus an hour or so of local and national ministry programs on the weekdays.

8903 For the first time in Toronto, the music brings a breadth of eight genres of Christian music to the forefront of the Toronto radio spectrum seven days a week.

8904 In terms of the ownership issue just to clarify, Andy McNabb is the owner. Salem is the banker. The loan agreement in Schedule 7 shows that full veto and control rest with me. That's the way I had wanted it and certainly wouldn't want it any other way.

8905 Only with my permission should Salem exercise the option to become a minority shareholder according to any CRTC regulations that exist today and in the future, and I hope they do exercise that option, they have an opportunity I think of bringing a wonderful perspective to what we are doing here in Toronto with a wonderful track record.

8906 As a result, we have no shareholders agreement. One is not needed. Even so, the loan agreement states that I exercise control at all times. As stated before, Salem is a board seat. It doesn't have any veto rights and I would be very happy to accept a condition of licence to that effect.

8907 In terms of replies to interventions, CHIN stated that we have a small potential market --

8908 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. McNabb, it's a good thing that you got to this point. This ten minutes is granted you to reply to interventions, not as an additional opportunity to speak about the merits of your application.

8909 I understand that there can be overlap, but I would ask you to stick to interventions. You have already used some minutes and this is the first that we hear about interventions.

8910 MR. McNABB: Fair enough. The CHIN intervention referred to the small size of the potential market, so that can talk about advertising and that. We can address listenership and addressing the public interest. CIRPA addressed the need for development of expending genres of Canadian talent.

8911 Just skipping through some points that are touched on in greater depth here. We talk about the largest unserved listening market with 74 per cent representation. That itself knocks down one argument.

8912 The greatest incremental use of signal on AM or FM has already been addressed.

8913 In terms of addressing the public interest on page 4, not more of the same but something different. Whereas most applicants offer a variation of talk or tempo or texture of music on Canadian or American stations that can already be heard across Toronto, there isn't one Canadian or American Christian station that can be received clearly across the whole of the market.

8914 In terms of being able to deliver on the public interest, you have got to have talented people to do so. Don Millar's track record in generating one of the highest rated Canadian radio stations with a music format with his proven start-up experience on Canada's first English language Christian radio speaks volumes. Lucy Hallford as our CFO brings a wonderful financial background from Rogers, plus a host of other high profile Director of Finance positions.

8915 In terms of the cultural mandate of this licensing process, which is definitely in the public interest, applicants need to address a cultural perspective, not merely that of demographics or psychographic perspective. Christian culture extends far beyond demographics. More than tempo and textured music, it transcends skin colour, linguistic or cultural backgrounds. It's a way of life that shapes unduplicated levels of altruism and benevolence, in shaping our attitudes as citizens.

8916 In terms of looking at the economic and social benefits in the community, we are tithing. That's 10 per cent of our gross inclusive of our cash expenditures for Canadian talent. This is directed to registered Canadian and more specifically local Toronto charities. These totals don't even count for 10 per cent of our contra. That's a direct investment back into the social and economic fabric of our city.

8917 In terms of the public interest, secular talk or music radio can't satisfy Christians. That's why they only listen two hours a day as compared to the Toronto average of 22.3 hours a week. That's 34 per cent below the CMA average. Proof positive that Christians want and need their own stations to fill the void and boost their listening to Toronto stations with a Toronto perspective.

8918 Canada has Toronto as its hottest Christian music market. Look at the packed stadiums and everything that you saw in the video that we showed you last week. Take a look at the largest untapped pool of Canadian talent in 20,000 churches.

8919 We are providing the greatest incremental boost to developing new and unduplicated Canadian talent in Toronto and across the country. Whereas others may propose 35 per cent Canadian content on less culturally focused formats, they already have an established industry distribution and promotional machine.

8920 With us at 15 per cent, which is 50 per cent more than required levels, we are playing a greater level of Canadian music with more and unduplicated Canadian artists relative to sales than any music based competitors. That's an unduplicated level of commitment.

8921 You will notice on the chart on page 7 it was inquired of us last week if we had quantified our levels of direct and indirect benefits. You will see the dollar values quantified there. You will see for AM $614,000 direct, $2.7 million indirect. FM, $614,000 direct, $3.4 million indirect and in the two licence scenario, $1 million direct and over $7 million indirect. That makes for $8 million. That is a heck of a chunk of change for an emerging format in an emerging industry.

8922 Take a look at Toronto leading a Canadian explosion of church activity, unparalleled by any other cultural group. Look at Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship's three million person revival. Our own board member, Pat Francis, who has Deeper Life Ministries here in Toronto, growing to 2,500 members and a worldwide television and satellite audience in just a handful of years.

8923 Yesterday Bud Williams spoke on his multistation television program initiatives across Canada in addition to around the world. Peter Youngren's new Toronto church, and the list continues.

8924 Proven demand by Christian listeners, the only Canadian audience willing to pay to get their radio. Remember how Neil Boron spoke in the video, that people would call WDCX in Buffalo and over two thirds of the 35,000 phone calls he took were Canadians. Before they had the 800 line, they were paying long distance toll charges. That's hunger that's unduplicated and unmatched by any competitor.

8925 We take a look at one and a half million dollars in proven quantified demand by Canadian Christian advertisers advertising in Buffalo. That's without the tax breaks being taken into account. This is proven Canadian advertiser demand for an American service that has no Toronto focus. It only reaches a fraction of the Toronto market with a clear signal.

8926 Our proposal repatriates Canadian listeners and Canadian dollars because each of the AM and FM signals are distinguished by an extensive Toronto perspective on Toronto issues and events for Toronto listeners.

8927 Not only that, we have $374,000 in proven advanced demand, advance commitments, by Canadian ministries and local churches for either station. As you will see on page 10, it extrapolates our revenues to upwards of $4 million, and that's without selling one commercial.

8928 Page 11, more proof of the viability of our revenues. Either station's audience is most conservatively quantified by David Oakes to generate a 2.4 share of hours tuned, and that's just from the people who said they are most likely. That doesn't even take into the account the people who said they are somewhat likely.

8929 With a share point worth close to $1.3 million here in Toronto, that projects to over $3 million in revenue right there. Now, if you add just a third of the people who said they would be somewhat likely to tune each station, you get audience shares over three, with revenues over $4 million.

8930 We are very conservatively projecting our revenues that match up with quantifiable real life models here in Canada and the United States, as we showed in our application.

8931 MR. CUSSONS: Mr. McNabb, I'm sorry. Could you perhaps summarize your comments, particularly with respect to interventions. Time is ticking.

8932 Thank you.

8933 MR. McNABB: Thank you. Yet another separate $1 million miracle. If we even underachieved our revenues by a million dollars in any one of our three scenarios, it would still leave us with multiple six figure and available cash flow right on hand, so we are being very prudent. We have really buttressed our bank account to be ready for some fun in Toronto.

8934 If Winnipeg can have two Christian stations, if Timmins and Sudbury and Thunder Bay and Barrie can each have one, how much more is the need to license two distinct and complementary talk and music stations right here in Toronto to serve the most hottest and vibrant largest unserved cultural market in this country.

8935 It's definitely in the public interest to provide something that's as diverse and unduplicated as this, serving the largest unserved cultural group characterized by two distinct music and talk audiences.

8936 Extensively localized Christian talk radio with a message of hope, Christian music filled with lyrics of love, radio that does not tear people down but it lifts people up with words of exhortation, edification and spiritual comfort.

8937 I am closing. I want to say thanks on behalf of the applicants. We have many opportunities to talk in the halls. I don't want to throw flowers at you or give you a fat head, but all the applicants, and I speak for everybody here, would agree with me that you have made us all very welcome. You have gone out of your way. We sincerely thank you for it because I know each and every one of us have a lot riding on this. It's really nice when you are hospitable and make us feel comfortable.

8938 Thank you very much.

8939 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. McNabb. I love flowers.

8940 MR. RHÉAUME: Mr. McNabb, would you --

8941 THE CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr. McNabb. You are not going to escape counsel. I lost my head. Please do stay. Counsel has questions.

8942 MR. RHÉAUME: I'm sure you can spare a minute. Have you looked at the AM band, the extended AM band?

8943 MR. McNABB: No, I did not because the largest unserved market deserves the largest signal available.

8944 MR. RHÉAUME: How long would it take you to be on air with both services and would you accept a condition of licence?

8945 MR. McNABB: Based on the proven experience of Don Millar in start-ups and the fact that we can almost plug in and play with AM 740 already having the transmitter established, we can be on the air within four months with AM 740 and within six months with FM 93.5

8946 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you.

8947 Thank you, Madam Chairperson

8948 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. McNabb. Thank you, counsel.

8949 Mr. Secretary, please.

8950 MR. CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

8951 I now invite 1158556 Ontario Limited to respond to all interventions, please, la Coopérative Radiophonique de Toronto Inc.

8952 THE CHAIRPERSON: Bear with us.

8953 Si vous attendez quelques minutes, nous recherchons les documents de traduction.

8954 Bonjour. Ça va maintenant. Allez-y.

8955 M. MARTEL: Madame la Présidente, Mesdames et Messieurs les Commissaires. Je voudrais conclure ma présentation, bien que nous n'avons eu aucune intervention contre notre projet, en soulignant brièvement quelques éléments qui militent en faveur d'une décision favorable pour la Coopérative radiophonique de Toronto.

8956 Premièrement, la Loi sur la radiodiffusion et votre --

8957 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Si je peux vous interrompre un instant. Oui, vous avez des interventions parce que toutes les demandes concurrentes ce sont des interventions.

8958 Alors c'est pour ça que vous avez le droit de réplique. Quand la procédure est concurrentielle, les concurrents sont vos intervenants aussi bien que les requérants.

8959 M. MARTEL: Merci.

8960 Premièrement, la Loi de la radiodiffusion et votre nouvelle politique sur la radio communautaire précise la place indéniable de la radio communautaire dans le système de radiodiffusion et l'équité des deux langues officielles du Canada.

8961 Deuxièmement, tous les autres projets devant vous sont de langue anglaise en majorité ou dans une troisième langue qui est souvent déjà desservie par des radios de campus ou des services spécialisés.

8962 Troisièmement, en étudiant la liste des services de radiodiffusion à caractère ethnique publiée par le CRTC en 1998 dans l'avis 98-135, nous ne pouvons que constater que les minorités de langues ethniques diverses sont plus que bien desservies si on les compare aux Franco-Ontariennes et Franco-Ontariens.

8963 Quatrièmement, le projet que propose la Coopérative radiophonique de Toronto est sans conteste celui qui produira le plus de contenu canadien tout en attirant la participation de plus de 50 groupes ethniques différents, y compris les gais et lesbiennes francophones et les personnes de tous les âges.

8964 Cinquièmement, aucun des groupes en votre présence n'est aussi mal desservi et ne fait face à autant d'assimilations que les Franco-Torontoises et les Franco-Torontois.

8965 Sixièmement, parce que la communauté francophone de Toronto est une communauté d'accueil pour des milliers de nouveaux arrivants à Toronto, seul le projet de la Coop Radio Toronto permettra à ces personnes de connaître les services francophones de la métropole et améliorer ainsi leurs chances de bien s'intégrer à leur pays d'accueil et mettre leurs connaissances et leurs habilités au service des Canadiens.

8966 Septièmement, c'est avec une programmation francophone qui excède de plus de 10 pour cent le minimum de contenu canadien requis par le CRTC et de 25 pour cent le contenu musical autre que francophone que le projet de la Coop radiophonique de Toronto deviendra une fenêtre pour la communauté Franco-Canadienne grâce à son affiliation aux réseaux francophones d'Amérique.

8967 Pour conclure, par sa création de près de 10 nouveaux emplois, par son service de promotion des nouveaux talents francophones, par les nombreux appuis d'organismes locaux, provinciaux, nationaux et ses partenaires du domaine des médias, le projet de la Coopérative radiophonique de Toronto permettra la meilleure utilisation des ondes publiques canadiennes pour l'avancement des Canadiens et des Canadiennes.

8968 Merci.

8969 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci beaucoup pour votre présentation. Je crois que le Conseiller juridique a quelques questions pour vous.

8970 M^e RHÉAUME: Seulement deux questions, Monsieur Martel.

8971 M. MARTEL: Oui.

8972 M^e RHÉAUME: Est-ce que vous avez considéré la bande AM élargie? Est-ce que vous avez eu des discussions avec vos ingénieurs, techniciens ou autres?

8973 M. MARTEL: Oui. On a exploré en 1994 cette possibilité-là, sauf que Patrimoine canadien qui est le principal pourvoyeur de fonds pour les immobilisations nous a indiqué à ce moment-là que d'avoir un émetteur AM et un terrain dans la région de Toronto dépasserait largement les capacités de payer du programme d'immobilisations des radios communautaires du Canada pour les langues officielles.

8974 M^e RHÉAUME: Alors dans votre cas particulier, c'était fonction de coûts, si je comprends bien. Est-ce que selon votre mémoire il y avait des fréquences disponibles à ce moment-là au niveau de vos études, et est-ce qu'il y avait des possibilités si vous aviez eu les ressources disponibles?

8975 M. MARTEL: On n'a pas exploré plus à fond les fréquences parce que, comme je vous l'expliquais, les ressources ne nous étaient pas disponibles et aussi c'était notre compréhension que la portion touchant les radios communautaires étaient, dans la Loi de la radiodiffusion, sous la bande FM et non sous la bande AM.

8976 M^e RHÉAUME: Merci.

8977 Maintenant si on vous accorde la licence que vous demandez, vous pouvez être en ondes à compter de quand?

8978 M. MARTEL: Le plus rapidement possible, mais on espérerait être en ondes pour Noël de cette année.

8979 M^e RHÉAUME: Alors à l'intérieur d'une année par condition de licence, ça ne vous pose pas de problème.

8980 M. MARTEL: Oui, bien à l'intérieur d'une année.

8981 M^e RHÉAUME: Merci. Merci, Madame la Présidente.

8982 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci, Monsieur Martel. C'est un plaisir de vous revoir.

8983 M. MARTEL: Merci de votre attention et j'espère que vous avez eu du bon temps à Toronto.

8984 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary, please.

8985 MR. CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

8986 I would now like to invite CKMW Radio Limited to come forward and respond to all interventions. He will also be a few minutes summarizing what he considers to be the benefits of his application, which is a privilege we gave all of our applications last week. Somehow Mr. Evanov was inadvertently overlooked, so he is going to also include that in his presentation.

8987 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon, Mr. Evanov. I hate to disappoint Mr. McNabb, but apparently I was guilty of not offering Mr. Evanov and CKMW the usual five minutes to summarize their application in part one, so we will consider this first five minutes the completion of part one and then we will hear you in reply.

8988 I'm sorry, Mr. McNabb, I'm not perfect yet.

8989 Go ahead.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

8990 MR. EVANOV: Madam Chairperson, we have more or less combined it. It sort of flows. I think if it would be possible to begin with our reply to the intervention and then lead into --

8991 THE CHAIRPERSON: You mean if you can deliver this document, you will be satisfied. Is that it?

8992 MR. EVANOV: Yes.

8993 THE CHAIRPERSON: Go ahead.

8994 MR. EVANOV: Madam Chair, Commissioners, this is our reply to the interventions against Radio Rainbow.

8995 Some concerns were offered by CIRPA and others about how Rainbow Radio might not be adding to diversity in the marketplace. We submit that it would indeed offer diversity in the following areas.

8996 Diversity in format. Rainbow Radio is a full service station with a balance of music and spoken word, a true broadcast format, one that goes from the smaller gay community to the broad or larger community.

8997 Diversity in providing a service to a large cultural group on a signal that was custom made for them in downtown Toronto.

8998 Diversity in the addition of another news voice. In some music areas, show tunes, popular standards you can't hear elsewhere. In ownership structure, an independent broadcaster. In employment and scholarship opportunities in a new area of Canadian broadcasting.

8999 In Canadian Talent Development initiatives that are unique and innovative such as the expansion of Canadian Music Week to reflect the gay perspective. Diversity in bringing the very large business sector of the gay community into the broadcasting system with advertising revenue.

9000 A second matter to deal with is Milestone's contention that we and other applicants for 93.5 may have understated the signal pattern, strength and coverage.

9001 MS LAURIGNANO: When we looked at the 93.5 frequency, we were guided by two factors: The Commission's definition that an FM market is the area that falls within the three millivolt contour and that the service would best meet the Commission's licensing criteria.

9002 Milestone also indicated that the CBC had conducted a field test to study the 93.5 frequency whereby it was determined that the 93.5 would put a strong signal as far west as to encompass Oakville.

9003 We subsequently spoke with Martin Marcotte, Senior Manager of Distribution Services for CBC Toronto, who said no such document is available. He confirmed that the CBC did a test for 93.5 at the same time it was doing tests for 99.1 with the results being as follows.

9004 To the east, the signal was discernible as far as Oshawa, to the north from well south of Richmond Hill, to the west, in Oakville and surrounding area. Mr. Marcotte said, and I quote

9005 In the absence of Milestone providing a copy of this study, we rely on Mr. Marcotte's word. It is important to note that the test was conducted from the CN Tower and not the Bank of Montreal Building where most of us, including Milestone, have submitted the transmitter will be located.

9006 MR. EVANOV: It is our position that we are correct in our reading of the signal strength and that Milestone has overstated the strength of the 93.5 signal. In fact, 93.5 can't serve Milestone's target market when, according to Stats Canada and Compusearch, they would only be heard by 29 per cent of potential listeners.

9007 Our engineers have told us that only the three millivolt in an urban city is reliable and that the .5 would be very unreliable.

9008 We have attached for your reference a copy of a map prepared by Compusearch outlining where the visible minority Black population resides in relation to the signal of 93.5. This map was also supplied to the applicants in our written interventions.

9009 In conclusion, Rainbow Radio does offer diversity. Rainbow Radio will not impact existing broadcasters because it will not duplicate other formats. Rainbow Radio has recognized reality. It has not over-estimated its reach and revenue projections.

9010 Madam Chairman, in our presentation last Tuesday, you asked us about the impact on CIDC if you licensed an applicant for the 93.5 frequency. In our handout this afternoon, we have given you a confidential summary of those different impacts.

9011 We said last week that the impact on CIDC in licensing one of our competitors would be worse, much worse, if CIDC was not allowed to move its transmitter. We can provide more explanation on this, either later today or tomorrow morning, when our power transmitter application is before you.

9012 MS LAURIGNANO: When the CBC said it was going to abandon 740 and FM 93.5, we considered what formats would be best suited for these frequencies, but first we had to look at the coverage areas.

9013 When we superimposed the 93.5 contour map on the City of Toronto, knowing who lives there, it became instantly clear that the only substantial cultural group not represented on the dial was the gay community.

9014 MR. EVANOV: We had known for a long time through our staff and friends that the gay and gay-friendly community needed and wanted a voice. We were looking for a way to bring such a service to Toronto. The purchase of an existing radio station or even applying to use 99.1 for this format back in 1997 would have been overkill because, as we have shown you, much of the gay community congregates in the downtown Toronto area.

9015 I have a capable and professional team to undertake this project and our existing stations would benefit from the synergies. But, I needed to know if there was a compelling case for such a service and I wanted to be 100 per cent sure that it would be a viable business.

9016 MS LAURIGNANO: Here's how we evaluated this opportunity. We commissioned an independent study of advertising agencies. Our sales staff canvassed local businesses in the gay village and the other two developing gay areas. We analyzed the gay print media and resources to see who had advertising budgets. We canvassed our own clients currently with CIAO and CIDC to determine if these advertisers had ever or would consider reaching the gay market through the medium of radio.

9017 The results were very encouraging. Everywhere we went and every door we knocked on, we found enthusiastic support for the service. When we looked at the print media and surveyed the categories and number of advertisers, we quickly summarized that 80 to 90 per cent were not radio users. The Pink Pages alone, which lists 1,000 business and services, offered us when we looked at a potential of 560 advertisers who would qualify as potential radio advertisers because the size of their business or their service was very unique.

9018 This is a bigger universe than we are used to. In comparison, CIDC FM averages just about 340 clients a year. Wow! When everything was in, there was no doubt in our mind that this service was viable.

9019 MR. EVANOV: How best could this community be served was a question we asked. We launched into a major market study that included a large gay-identified and general population study as well as focus group studies.

9020 As a result of our independent market research, our own research and our personal experience, we put our business plan and program schedule together. It is a realistic plan with a realistic objective in sales and in audience.

9021 MS LAURIGNANO: When we conducted our focus group studies at Pollara Research, I wanted to see for myself and not rely totally on the statistical reports that would follow. I was an unseen observer in the focus group sessions.

9022 What I saw was the face of Toronto, young and old, Asian and European, black and white and men and women, a retired teacher, a self-employed woman, a student, a truck driver. In other words, as I said, the real face of Toronto. They were all as different could be, but what united them, what bound them together was far stronger than any of their differences.

9023 These are just a few of the things I took from these sessions. They wanted to be understood as they were, not as someone wants them to be. The younger members of the community want dialogue with their peers. Elders who are rich in knowledge wished that they could share with others.

9024 While some had found long and nurturing relationships, most were alone, some even estranged from their families because of who they were or how they were defined. Some had emerged from these experiences as strong, compassionate, loving individuals despite untold hardship and suffering.

9025 Some felt it was easier to stay hidden or to stay invisible because that would minimize the potential for backlash. Above all, this community has a hunger and thirst for its own news, its own talk shows, its own needs which need to be reflected, its own opportunities to celebrate its culture and to share that culture with everyone else.

9026 Commissioners, we know that radio is the perfect medium to respond to these real and serious societal concerns.

9027 This experience furthered my conviction that for us it was no longer a question of "should" but a question of "must". We knew it was a good business plan. We knew that the local business community existed. We knew that the community was not represented on our radio dial. We knew that we were experienced, dedicated and successful independent broadcasters who would make the best use of this frequency because it was a perfect fit for this market.

9028 We will stay devoted to Rainbow Radio because we are not affected by bottom line returns that an outside investor might demand. We don't have any shareholder shotgun clauses in our financing arrangements or shareholder agreements.

9029 MR. EVANOV: Commissioners have on two occasions in this hearing asked whether the gay community understood that Rainbow Radio could at any time switch its format.

9030 Madam Chairperson, I want my company to serve the gay community. Today we are offering a voluntary condition of licence to serve this cultural community in the format we have proposed.

9031 MS LAURIGNANO; Madam Chair, we want this licence because we need this licence in order to serve this community which we know so well. We will serve it responsibly, equitably, honourably and, above all, with the pride it deserves.

9032 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Evanov, on page 3 when you discuss the coverage of 93.5, you make a point of saying that to the west, in Oakville, Mr. Marcotte said that there was no discernible signal due to interference from other signals coming into the area.

9033 I remain puzzled following the discussion we had and that you repeat here by the devastating effect on CIDC's revenues that would flow from us licensing 93.5 on a format that you consider competitive to CIDC.

9034 If I look at the map, the current coverage map of CIDC, and I take your comments that there would be no discernible signal in Oakville and west, just what harm would there be to CIDC's revenues of the magnitude that you suggest from us licensing 93.5 on a competitive signal?

9035 MR. EVANOV: I will begin and I think Carmela will join me.

9036 THE CHAIRPERSON: At the moment I would like you to address without the application we will hear tomorrow, but with your current coverage.

9037 MR. EVANOV: Okay. With the current coverage, there's two areas of concern. One is the signal from CIDC. The highway from Toronto to Orangeville is not the same highway as from Orangeville to Toronto. The CIDC signal, although the three millivolt will stop in Brampton, okay, a little bit beyond that the .5 does receive listenership in the very northern part of Toronto or just north of where the border is between Toronto and the balance of the CMA.

9038 We are not talking Oakville here. We are talking if you take the northwest corner of Toronto, so there is definitely audience and there will be duplication in that area because this signal will cover just around the city limits, so there will be a mutual area there where definitely there will be some overlap with the signals, particularly if they are in a competitive format.

9039 Our other concern was that both applicants have stated that even though they have the -- even though they would maybe take the 93.5 as it is, they are looking to extend that signal, if not in this hearing then at a subsequent process. If they can do some technical improvements, then that signal will extend much further coming into our area.

9040 The third area really, the key area, is also that there is really one advertising budget for the Toronto CMA. This is what the ad agencies put forth. If these stations receive the shares in Toronto, the BBM share that they are projecting, they will have sufficient audience that if it comes down to a one, two, three station buy that they will dominate if the two other CHR stations, whether it would be CISS or whether it would be CING, take the top two buys in that campaign, then with the shares projected here at this hearing, the Milestone group and the SHARE group will take the third buy, leaving no buy left for CIDC.

9041 In other words, they will take most of the budget.

9042 MS LAURIGNANO: I would just like to add one thing to Mr. Evanov's comments, that being that as Milestone just finished saying a little while ago, they also have a sales agreement with Standard. What that will mean is they will be able to combine some sort of sales combo with some of the stations. That's what I understand. When you are working in a sales arrangement, that's what that means in this industry.

9043 There is that competitive -- I'm not going to call it imbalance, but the possibility of imbalance there that concerns us.

9044 The other thing is that the whole Toronto CMA, which includes the City of Toronto and includes Orangeville, in a lot of cases privatizing is what's called a central buy, that is that there is a budget for the whole area and we all have to compete for that.

9045 This is compounded further for us because it would be in a similar demographic, in a similar music format. That means that even the niche advertisers, the clubs, those who are looking for those particular types of listeners would also impact on us.

9046 It's not necessarily a geographical thing. Somebody who wants to go to a club will travel from one place to the other, so it affects the marketing area more which goes beyond the signal area.

9047 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Evanov and Mrs. Laurignano.

9048 Counsel, please.

9049 MR. RHÉAUME: Merci.

9050 Mr. Evanov, did you explore any other technical options like the extended AM band for this kind of service?

9051 MS LAURIGNANO: No, we have not. As we stated, we worked with the parameters and guidelines for the 93 and we believe that that's a perfect fit for this particular market, that it would serve the needs very well, so we have not.

9052 MR. RHÉAUME: Would this service work on the AM band according to you?

9053 MS LAURIGNANO: For sure. It possibly could work very well, but we don't know of a frequency that could be maximized to the degree that this 93 would because of its limited range and because of where the population is.

9054 MR. RHÉAUME: Would you be on air within a year if you got the licence?

9055 MR. EVANOV: Yes, we would.

9056 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you.

9057 Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

9058 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, counsel.

9059 Thank you, Mr. Evanov and your colleagues. We will see each other again tomorrow, of course.

9060 MS LAURIGNANO: We will thank you tomorrow and bring you flowers.

9061 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

9062 Mr. Secretary, please.

9063 MR. CUSSONS: Madam Chairperson, we will now hear the reply of Durham Radio Incorporated to all interventions.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

9064 THE CHAIRPERSON: Welcome back.

9065 MR. KIRK: Good afternoon, Madam Chairman. Thank you.

9066 Sorry I wasn't able to be here on Monday. As you know, there was a small cable merger but my colleague, Mr. Kassay, I think ably gave you our intervention on the other applications.

9067 We are delighted to be back and give you our final comments. We will be responding to interventions against our application by CKMW Radio and CIRPA.

9068 Our application to serve Toronto with a Country FM addresses the largest and most popular format unavailable in the market currently. It establishes the quantifiable proven audience which is available for the format. It's the largest unserved in Toronto.

9069 It ensures diversity of format and voices in the market. It commits to large direct Canadian Talent Development initiatives to promote and develop Canadian country music. It is financially sound and based on conservative financial assumptions.

9070 I will now turn it over to Steve Kassay who will address the specific issues on how we are to serve Toronto and the benefits questioned in the interventions.

9071 MR. KASSAY: Thank you, Doug. Good afternoon.

9072 In the response to CKMW some specific issues raised in interventions, in theirs:

9073 Also:

9074 How will we serve Toronto? Well, that signal coverage, to extend and introduce to the market an already successful format in Durham Region and Scarborough, to serve the balance of Toronto, Mississauga and Brampton. We will establish a Toronto office and studio. We will add news and programming with a downtown flavour to broaden the focus of CJKX FM. This is where we propose to relocate our artist/liaison representative, for instance. You met Adrienne last week. She was part of our presentation panel. She needs to be close to the action.

9075 We need to be as accessible as possible as well in order to effectively promote good relations with the artists, our audience and as well our relationship with the industry players who are, for the most part, in Toronto.

9076 It is also from where we will coordinate our Toronto component of our community events program, a 12 month program, which gives non-profit and community groups free air time through onsite station visits right at their events.

9077 We will also establish a Toronto presence and would initially add five additional programming and sales personnel to the team. Of course, there's an additional commitment to establish a Toronto presence, whether awarded 93.5 or 106.3 FM frequencies.

9078 So to recap, how will we serve Toronto in addition to the points just mentioned? Perhaps it's best described by some of our success stories in Durham where we succeed now.

9079 The annual Million Penny Toy Drive. We donate over $10,000 to charities and help centres each year, thanks to the graciousness of our listenership.

9080 The Police Canine Support Fund, we are the media player. As a matter of fact, we are one of the only players. We have enabled the Durham Regional Police to purchase three new dogs and training of officer and partner, $12,000 a piece, over the last three years.

9081 And our KX 96 talent search which we explained last week where every year two talented individuals win the recording, production and pressing of a CD which is ready for distribution and a product which we air on KX 96, as it's known now.

9082 Benefits of these points. Additional Canadian Talent Development commitments. Initially $100,000 per year to reinvigorate the substantial disenfranchised country audience of over 360,000 in Toronto.

9083 In response to CIRPA, to quote their intervention:

9084 With the recommendation a couple of paragraphs above that it should be Black urban in the format, we take that to mean the Black urban satisfies that criteria and our format does not. If you will have a look at the handout which is inserted at the back of the presentation folder we just gave you, this is a BDS breakdown.

9085 Broadcast Data Systems compiles and lists airplay for the purposes of making charts, analysis on music and titles. In response directly to this intervention and our assumptions on it, these are the top five songs on the WBLK playlist from last week.

9086 For instance, the first line, Destiny's Child, Say My Name, 26 spins during the broadcast week on WBLK. Accordingly, you will follow the columns: 13 times on CIDC, 34 times on CING, 40 times on CISS. That's the example. If you look below, these are the top five country songs across Canada.

9087 Lonestar and Smile hit 476 spins. We logged ten. I cannot provide any playlisting numbers for Toronto radio because there is no Toronto radio.

9088 As well, the benefits would be to introduce country music to Canada's largest market. There is none right now. That's our specific response to the words from CIRPA.

9089 We would also provide a vibrant promotional and development vehicle for Canada's world class country music artists and producers. We would reinvigorate the country lifestyle. It's the fun of the format, it's the Beaches Festival, the family. The family can enjoy that whole day.

9090 It's the number of major concert events that have taken a big hit over the last year. They don't happen any more. We will be a force in re-establishing the momentum of this country music industry. With airplay comes the concerts and appearances. With the events and appearances comes attention. With attention comes opportunity, opportunity for country to be re-established and a strong foothold in this powerful market.

9091 This whole process will not happen without expanded Toronto coverage for CJKX FM. It is the engine which will power the drive.

9092 MR. KIRK: Thanks, Steve. I think we have articulated through our application and our responses to the interventions what we are. I just want to conclude with a few of the things we are not.

9093 Durham Radio and CJKX FM are not controlled, influenced or associated with any other broadcasting group in the market. We are not going to damage any Toronto broadcasters by competing in their format. We will not duplicate music played by existing Toronto radio stations. We will not be relying on repatriation of dubious out of market revenues or audiences to fulfil our business plan and we are not suggesting unsound or aggressive technical assumptions or proposals to achieve our coverage or our projected audience.

9094 In conclusion, we think Durham Radio's application to extend the coverage of CJKX FM to Toronto provides an outstanding list of positives without any material negative consequences for the Toronto market. It is the only application before you which provides true diversity of format, independent voice and ownership in the Toronto market.

9095 We trust the Commission will agree with our conclusion. We have with great energy and excitement looked forward to bringing country music back to Canada's largest city, Toronto.

9096 Thank you.

9097 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Kirk, and your colleague.

9098 Counsel, please.

9099 MR. RHÉAUME: I think you have heard these questions. Would an expansion on the AM band be feasible at all and have you looked at it?

9100 MR. KIRK: I think we spoke about this at length last week. With regard to CJKX, I think we stated on the record last week that we had not looked at AM coverage simply because it was a music format and the FM band best suited the extension of CJKX in the country format.

9101 However, I have done a bit more examination of the AM band and I think last week mentioned to you two frequencies that had been explored and applied for in this market, 1610 and 1670. On further consultation with the consulting engineer, there is even a possibility now us using three spots on the extended AM band.

9102 Now, we haven't done the briefs or anything like that, but it's possible to use 1610. There is a 40 kilohertz separation requirement on the AM band, so conceivably 1610, 1650 and 1690 could be used in the Toronto market for service on the extended AM band.

9103 One of the other applicants mentioned that they had looked at 10 kilowatts. These extended AM band frequencies bilaterally with the U.S. were agreed upon to be 10 kilowatts on the directional services, with a one kilowatt limitation at the border in night-time hours.

9104 You can use a directional array, a fairly simple directional array, a two tower array, which is not too complicated or expensive to build to use up to five kilowatts in a directional pattern in the night-time hours which would give reasonably good night- time service, certainly to the central Toronto area in our view.

9105 Now, we have not proposed that or explored it because of the reasons we articulated to you last week, but we think there is a substantial untapped or unused resource on the extended AM band to provide service in the Toronto market.

9106 Although we have characterized I think with good reason as the two FM frequencies, 93.5 and 106.3 which we have applied for and given you that alternative, as the very, very, very last FMs in the market. The very, very last is not applicable to the AM band. There's certainly substantial room left to provide additional radio services, perhaps more attuned to the AM band in terms of spoken word content on those additional frequencies.

9107 That would be my comment. Sorry if I was long.

9108 MR. RHÉAUME: No, no problem. That's quite helpful.

9109 Would you be on air within a year on the two FM frequencies you applied for?

9110 MR. KIRK: Yes. CJKX is already in operation, so adding on 93.5 or 106.3 is not that complicated a deal. I would expect we could be on the air in three to six months maximum if awarded either technical alternative.

9111 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you.

9112 Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

9113 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Kirk, and your colleague.

9114 Mr. Secretary, please.

9115 MR. CUSSONS: We would now invite Mr. Gary Farmer to come forward and reply to all interventions.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

9116 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon, Mr. Farmer, and your team. Proceed when you are ready.

9117 MR. FARMER: Yes. Good afternoon, Madam Chair and Commissioners.

9118 To my immediate left is Alanis King. She is our training and volunteer coordinator. To my right is Meredith Ramsey. She is a Partnership Development Officer. To my far left is Nicole Robertson. She is our Media and Public Relations Director.

9119 On the far left in the back is our New Media Development, Christopher Spence. Mark MacLeod next to him, the Director of Operations and our Engineer, John Matthews, and of course, from our Board of Directors, Sherman Maness, completes our team. As well, we have Jessica Wolfe with us as our Youth Liaison and also André Morriseau, who is our Multimedia Broadcaster working with us. Thank you very much.

9120 Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, we would like to take this opportunity to respond to intervenors' comments. Our responses fall into three areas: our proposed coverage and expected audience size, our relationship with SHARE FM and our viability based on advertising and fundraising sources.

9121 Durham Radio suggested that our proposed coverage of 106.5 would be overly limited. This is not the case. Durham used realistic methods to predict interference from WYRK within our proposed three millivolt per metre contour. Those same methods show the coverage on 106.5 will be sufficiently interference-free in the downtown area where reception of 740 AM is deficient.

9122 Comparing coverage for 106.3 and 106.5, clearly 106.5 has a much larger interference-free coverage area. 106.5 allows more efficient use of the spectrum because the 106.3 has to be limited to a very low parameter to protect stations in Guelph and Peterborough.

9123 Durham Radio also alleged that we were unclear about our audience size. AVR's potential audience size is discussed thoroughly in the application and is based on maximum coverage of the Toronto CMA using either the AM/FM combo or a stand-alone FM with amended parameters.

9124 CKMW questioned whether the public benefits that SHARE proposed for AVR should count as Canadian Talent Development funding under the Commission's criteria.

9125 SHARE has committed to this funding as a public benefit regardless of whether the Commission accepts it as a CTD. SHARE's funding has not been included in AVR's business plan and the two applications are not linked by any dependency, as suggested by Durham. The Commission can approve one or both applications with confidence that AVR will succeed in its cultural mission.

9126 CKMW characterized SHARE's offer to co-locate its studio facility and extend many intangible benefits to AVR, mentoring for instance, as a possible local management agreement. An LMA between a non-profit and for profit station? That would be unique indeed.

9127 In fact, SHARE made this public benefit offer not for any financial gain in the manner of an LMA, but because, like their proposed CTD funding, they felt it was the right thing to do and it made SHARE an attractive applicant in a very competitive process.

9128 Finally, Durham questioned AVR's viability by alleging a lack of clarity about our fundraising and advertising revenue sources. AVR's proposed revenue sources are clear and certain. AVR has no strings attached, three quarters of a million funding reserve, courtesy of NewCap Broadcasting, that will easily take care of start-up costs and any unforeseen shortfalls.

9129 The AVR team are experienced fundraisers on board. We have experienced fundraisers on board. We raised over $300,000 in six months for an arts festival last year in addition to the funds to mount this application. We will clearly be able to gear up our fundraising efforts once we have a licence in hand.

9130 We also have the option of leasing transmitting and studio equipment to reduce upfront capital costs, so we know that cash flow will not hamper our start-up. AVR's business plan is deliberately skeletal, pared to the bone, and derives a lot of flexibility by showing bare minimum revenue. We plan to grow with modest beginnings.

9131 Our plan anticipates corporate fundraising, including program underwriting à la national public radio. Many of our corporate contacts are interested in this style of delivery. However, the plan is conservative enough that we can shift towards conventional advertising if necessary. After all, ad revenue was kept artificially low to allow this kind of flexibility.

9132 The AVR team has members with a long track record of successful magaine ad sales and others who have had many years of administrative experience in non-profit radio. With 24 native communities and the 740 coverage area, in addition to Toronto's aboriginal population, including substantial aboriginal populations in Southern Ontario in the towns of Brantford, London, Fort Erie, Niagara Falls, Hamilton, Belleville, Huntsville, Windsor, Kitchener-Waterloo and Barrie, et cetera, we expect to see the growth of the aboriginal community.

9133 We will be an important vehicle to promote rapid economic development in the aboriginal culture and tourism sectors. In our seven years of publishing Aboriginal Voices magazine, we have seen over 50 per cent non-native readership. Because of our near universal access to radio, greater numbers of non-aboriginals will listen to AVR out of curiosity, as tourists, maybe even as lovers of aboriginal culture, including aboriginal and world music.

9134 Our plan is so conservative it didn't even mention the many available forms of public funding. Perhaps the best example is the Indian and Northern Affairs Canada which has flagged communications amongst native people as their number one priority.

9135 MS RAMSEY: Good afternoon, Lady Chair and Commissioners. I am Meredith Ramsey. My role with the Aboriginal Voices is as Partnership Development Advisor. I am funded through Ontario Native Affairs.

9136 The Partnership Development Program is part of Ontario Native Affairs Building Aboriginal Economies Strategy. All levels of our government have outstanding strategies for bringing aboriginal economies into the mainstream with an emphasis on the new information age economics, primarily the fusion between media and technology. Available funding prioritizes the field in which AVR will operate.

9137 AVR is ready, qualified and capable to successfully operate a Toronto radio service. We have been working very closely to develop partnerships with well established organizations like the Bell Centre for Communications, Centennial College and SMART Toronto which is in partnership with Price Waterhouse.

9138 These funding sources available to AVR are different from those available to commercial broadcasters. However, a broad range of funding is available because public, corporate and private sectors have made media and technology a priority because of its great potential.

9139 Funding sources already designated for this project include, and I would like to mention here that within the forementioned these funds are earmarked for aboriginal purposes. Okay? So they include Industry Science Technology Canada, Aboriginal Business Canada, especially for start-up funding, Indian and Northern Affairs and the Economic Renewal Secretariat which manages the Aboriginal Ontario Capital Investment Funds including proceeds from Casino Rama.

9140 Furthermore, AVR's programming content specifically qualifies for funds from the Aboriginal Healing Foundation, which has over $350 million designated for these programs, Trillium Foundation, Canada and Ontario Arts Councils, Canadian Heritage and the Ministries of Communication, Citizenship and Recreation and Education, Development and Trade.

9141 I have made a conservative estimate of public sources which I am confident AVR can access, but which are not currently included in the business plan as $3.27 million over five years.

9142 AVR should be commended for the amount of funds raised on their own initiative with conventional advertising and corporate sources. AVR has strong financial support, expertise and appropriate resource people to make this station a positive benefit to the general public.

9143 Also, as a member of the aboriginal community, I would like to say that we have made significant progress when given the opportunity. We have never had a radio voice in Toronto. We are prepared. We have access to funds. We have a viable plan and we look forward very much to becoming interactive with the greater community.

9144 Thank you.

9145 MR. FARMER: Aboriginal broadcasting is a high public priority and an attractive funding destination. Within the first year of operation the Commissioned licensed APTN, they were able to access Canadian Heritage for $2.1 million. Aboriginal Business Canada provided $100,000. Indian Affairs granted $80,000 for development. HRDC gave $65,000 and Western Diversification kicked in $45,000.

9146 We should mention that there are a couple of funding avenues which we don't plan to take, like selling our air time. When we were asked last week about brokering programming, we thought you meant selling our programming to other stations and we would prefer that.

9147 We also have no plans for radio bingo, even though its a mainstay in native radio. We don't expect to need it.

9148 To sum up, our funding sources are clear. We are confident that they will exceed our minimum needs and allow us to surpass our programming commitments.

9149 Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, we have had such underservice to our community for so long, yet we are now strong enough to use this great media. We have worked really hard to develop a radio service to benefit all Canadians and we truly believe that our service will be a success.

9150 We have found this competitive process to have a steep learning curve, but we have taken on the challenge in the most sincere belief that our effort will benefit our children and the coming generations. Our children and yours must hear the wisdom and benefit from the experience of the original Canadians.

9151 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Farmer, I see that your procedural abilities are growing by leaps and bounds.

9152 Commissioner Williams has a few questions for you and so has counsel.

9153 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Good afternoon, Mr. Farmer. I guess it appears we have come full circle. We started with a lot of questions and we still have a few left.

9154 When speaking in support of the Arnalog East application yesterday, you stressed the cost savings and other benefits your proposed service could obtain from Auguste if you were also licensed, such as training, considerable assistance with administrative matters and co-location of studios. If the Auguste application was not to receive a licence, should the Commission be concerned about the launch and long term success of your proposed service?

9155 MR. FARMER: Thank you, Mr. Williams. No, not at all. Our budget as we proposed in our original application has start-up economy all set and ready to go without any contribution.

9156 Our original application for our licence for 106.5 and 740 is a stand-alone application and can, you know, do fine without any benefits from SHARE.

9157 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you. Give it some background on the frequencies. Earlier today Durham stated that they would establish a Toronto presence whether they were awarded 93.5 or 106.3. In Durham's oral arguments about your application on Monday, Durham maintained that co-channel interference from a Buffalo station on 106.5 would be much stronger than predicted by the technical information filed in your application.

9158 According to Durham, the practical coverage area would be significantly reduced from that depicted on your maps. Then in your comments today you talk about 24 native communities in the 740 coverage area in addition to Toronto's aboriginal population. The reserves more easily fall within the range of the 740, but they are well outside the 106.5. How would your business plan and the delivery of your service to your client group work in that scenario?

9159 I guess what I am saying is if the Commission were to license one of your choices, which would be the preferred model, the AM or the FM given the background?

9160 MR. FARMER: That's a difficult question, only because the 106.3 with unamended parameters gives us about three million people where the expanded service reaches the full CMA of Toronto which you already kind of said that's not looking too good.

9161 That's why we suggested the combo 740 because we are interested primarily in the Toronto CMA, though we feel we could fight along and get FM service in those other southern Ontario regions as we grow stronger. We specifically wanted to ensure that we covered the Toronto CMA because that's what sustains the business plan that we have before you.

9162 It's very difficult to say that we could get 740 as a stand-alone without some FM combo to sustain the downtown core, which is very important to our success as an operation.

9163 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I have to admit I am still just as confused as when I first asked you. Have you said that you would need both then and not one or the other? Was that your answer?

9164 MR. FARMER: As we set forth in our original application, the 740/106.5 covers the total CMA and that's what we require to underwrite our economic plan.

9165 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: In the event that you weren't awarded both, what would you preference be and could your business plan still sustain it on either one of the other options?

9166 MR. FARMER: Just give me a second.

9167 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Take your time.

--- Pause / Pause

9168 MR. FARMER: We have provided to the Commission a breakdown of FM stand-alone figures as part of one of the additional questions that we answered. In that projection, pro forma five year projection, we included reduced advertising revenues potentially from the loss of not having the whole Toronto CMA for our service.

9169 When we talked about two options that we wished to be given, what the preference was originally for, 740 and the 106.5, but we have looked at possibilities to be able to expand the 106.5, so if the Commission felt they could give two frequencies to one party, that we wanted the Commission to basically award us the programming service and basically encourage us to look at ways that we could make the 106.5, you know, make it the most useful service possible to the Toronto market. We gave you our financial projections on only the 106.5.

9170 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Farmer. That clears up the questions I had.

9171 MR. FARMER: Thank you, Mr. Williams.

9172 THE CHAIRPERSON: Counsel -- I was going to invite counsel. Did you have something to else to add?

9173 MR. FARMER: Just that I think that our Engineer, John Matthews, probably could give you a lot of information about 106.5 if indeed this might be an appropriate time.

9174 THE CHAIRPERSON: But the question is obviously aimed at getting clearly on the record, which you said in your presentation, is 740 by itself an alternative. You have applied for 740 combined with 106.5. You said that you would find a way of living with 106.5 without 740, but I haven't heard the opposite.

9175 MR. FARMER: Yes, for the expanded coverage.

9176 John.

9177 MR. MATTHEWS: Yes. I think I can shed some light on that, Commissioner and Chair.

9178 We have looked at 106.5 as it was the most appropriate fill-in for the area of downtown Toronto where 740 coverage was inadequate, but we have also identified alternate some frequencies that could be used for that fill-in purpose and we did mention that in our application.

9179 You have probably had a lot of people telling you that these are the last FM frequencies, but we know that to not be the case for purposes of fill-in coverage for AM 740.

9180 THE CHAIRPERSON: It would be to fill in the 740 --

9181 MR. FARMER: Yes.

9182 THE CHAIRPERSON: -- were you not granted the 740, so you may know something we don't but you are not prepared to tell us.

9183 MR. MacLEOD: No, not at all. No. In our studies we were quite thorough and we believe that there is more than one alternative on the FM band for purposes of filling in the area where 740 coverage is not available.

9184 THE CHAIRPERSON: And that is addressed to the extent that you have covered in your application.

9185 MR. MATTHEWS: Yes.

9186 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Counsel.

9187 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

9188 It must be late in the day or in the week or both. Would 740 as a stand-alone work?

9189 MR. FARMER: Well, we are excited by that opportunity because it services the largest audience, of course, if there is a ten million --

9190 MR. RHÉAUME: 740 stand-alone is fine. 106.5 stand-alone is also fine?

9191 MR. FARMER: Well, we would prefer the expanded version of that.

9192 MR. RHÉAUME: Yes. Have you looked at any other AM frequencies?

9193 MR. FARMER: Yes, we have. We have looked at the extended frequencies on the AM band and realized that they are kind out of touch for us financially as well as, you know, many radios don't have that expanded version, so the inclusivity of our application would be somewhat shut down, so we don't really see them as a viable service.

9194 MR. RHÉAUME: So in your case it's only an issue of cost or resources.

9195 MR. FARMER: It's also costs and the inclusivity. It doesn't include everyone. It's only people who have that certain kind of radio that goes up to that high frequency.

9196 MR. RHÉAUME: LMAs. I think I understand your point about a non-profit and a for profit station, but unfortunately I'm not sure if the regs are that nimble or supple.

9197 If it was decided that in the case were Mr. Auguste is licensed and you are licensed, would you be prepared to apply for a condition of licence with respect to that LMA?

9198 MR. FARMER: Yes.

9199 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you. If you are granted the licences you are asking for, how long would it take you to be on air?

9200 MR. FARMER: Well, we would like to be on air for National Aboriginal Day.

9201 MR. RHÉAUME: I beg your pardon?

9202 MR. FARMER: It would be within one year.

9203 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you, sir.

9204 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Counsel, I think he believes June 21.

9205 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you. That's it for now.

9206 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Farmer and your colleagues. This is your last, probably to your relief, your last appearance before us in this process.

9207 MR. FARMER: It has been a pleasure and we have some gifts for you also. Please accept them on behalf of Aboriginal Voices Radio.

9208 Thank you.

9209 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

9210 Mr. Secretary, please.

9211 MR. CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

9212 The next applicant to reply to all interventions is CHWO Ontario Incorporated.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

9213 THE CHAIRPERSON: Go ahead, Mr. Caine.

9214 MR. CAINE: Thank you and good late afternoon, Madam Chairperson and Commissioners. My name is Michael Caine. To my right is Jacqui Gerrard, the Controller of our Company, and to my left is our Vice-President, Harry McDonald.

9215 Thank you for this opportunity to respond verbally to the comments made in the written intervention of 1540 Radio Limited which is the only negative intervention our application has received.

9216 Although the Commission is in receipt of our detailed written response, we would like to briefly set out some of the main points in reply at this time.

9217 First of all, contrary to CHIN's view, we have provided overwhelming evidence in our application and at this hearing that there exists a strong demand for radio service for the largest and fastest growing segment of the population.

9218 In the Greater Toronto area alone, over 1.2 million people are over the age of 50 and they live and work in the GTA and throughout Southern Ontario, an additional 1.1 million fifty-plusers would hear the 740 signal. That's a targeted 2.2 million people in a single demographic group.

9219 One of the primary objectives in these deliberations is to determine which application brings the greatest diversity to the Toronto market. We believe the clear choice is AM 740 Primetime Radio. The intervenor's contention that there are existing stations in Toronto that focus on fifty plus music that appeals to the fifty plus demographic is simply wrong.

9220 We have clearly shown that the adult standards to be heard on AM 740, the kind of music described by our supporting intervenors last Monday as the timeless tunes you can sing, hum or whistle, are not played on any radio station in Toronto. In fact, not one of the over 20 AM and FM stations licensed for Toronto is identified as having an adult standards format.

9221 With respect to the doubt expressed by the intervenor regarding the viability of our proposed adult standards format on AM 740, we want to refute those comments and offer the following evidence.

9222 The market studies conducted by the Solutions Research Group and Harrison, Young, Personen and Newell are thorough, credible and beyond reproach. Their conclusions are clear: (a) there will be a substantial audience for AM 740 Primetime Radio, and (b) the revenue projections are realistic and paint a positive sales picture for the new station.

9223 In addition, our extensive experience in fifty plus marketing will allow us to have a substantial head start in attaining year one projections because $1.1 million worth of existing airtime sales will be transferred to the new venture from CHWO 1250. This amount is equal to 60 per cent of the first year sales projections for AM 740 Primetime Radio.

9224 Contrary to CHIN's assertion and in order to clarify the issue, the viability of CHWO 1250 is also ensured because its subsidiary station, CJMR 1320, will transfer the revenues garnered from its family oriented, contemporary Christian music programming to the new JOY 1250.

9225 This amount, which accounts for 35 per cent of CJMR's revenue, will make up 73 per cent of JOY 1250's year one projections, again ensuring a substantial base from which to deliver the area's first full time station dedicated to family values and contemporary Christian music.

9226 CJMR will easily be able to replace the Christian programming revenue through new, quality ethnic programming produced by CJMR and its program partners.

9227 Remember too that our revenue projections are only one aspect of our overall financial strength. Our strong, experienced, responsible management will be of great benefit to AM 740 Primetime radio, allowing us to control expenses where needed and spend effectively and prudently to have the desired impact on our target audience in and around the GTA and Southern Ontario.

9228 We know too how important it is to invest in the development and presentation of our programming. That's why our program expenses at CHWO 1250 in Oakville have historically been higher than the national average for medium market AM stations when expressed as a percentage of total revenue.

9229 We also know that to successfully compete in Canada's largest major market against Canada's largest and most powerful broadcasters, we will have to continue that commitment to program excellence. Thus, our AM 740 program expenses as a percentage of sales will be higher than the average of Toronto AM or FM stations, as shown in the CRTC's financial database that accompanied the call for applications.

9230 With reasonable audience expectations, easily attainable sales projections and with the ability and experience to handle major market expenses, it is abundantly clear that contrary to CHIN's assertion, the CHWO business plan is absolutely viable and AM 740 Primetime radio will be a success in every regard.

9231 Furthermore, the entire plan can be achieved with what the researchers conclude as "negligible impact" on the audiences and revenues of existing stations. At the same time, the licensing of AM 740 Primetime radio permits the establishment of three other formats to the area: our JOY 1250's family format featuring contemporary Christian music and two licences on FM to be selected by CRTC.

9232 Madam Chair and Commissioners, contrary to CHIN's contention that our application does not serve the needs and interest and reflect the circumstances and aspirations of all Canadians, we respectfully and emphatically disagree by submitting to you that our application in fact represents a remarkable and rare opportunity to satisfy a number of different and unique requests for radio service.

9233 Throughout this entire process, we have not heard anything that dissuades us from the conviction that the CHWO application will permit the optimum use of the available frequencies to provide the greatest diversity in Canada's most populated region. We hope you will agree and grant our application for AM 740 Primetime radio.

9234 To conclude, we are very gratified by the over 7,000 individuals who have written to you in support of our application, including Mayors, Cabinet Ministers, MPs, MPPs, fifty-plus organizations that represent hundreds of thousands of people: educators, advertisers, the Toronto Musicians' Association, famous international artists like Liona Boyd and Gordie Tapp and not-so-famous artists who are looking forward to AM 740 Primetime radio helping them become famous.

9235 Finally, we wish to thank the thousands upon thousands of everyday Canadians from every walk of life all across Toronto and throughout Southern Ontario for their heartfelt and meaningful support.

9236 We would especially like to thank the ten intervenors who were invited to address the Commission last Monday. They represented a wonderful cross-section of people and they spoke with sincerity, intelligence and passion. We are very grateful to them for their important and enthusiastic support.

9237 Finally, Madam Chair and Commissioners, we than you and the CRTC for this opportunity to appear before you.

9238 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Caine.

9239 Counsel, please.

9240 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

9241 That whole business of the extended AM band, is this totally without merit?

9242 MR. CAINE: I'm sorry, it is hard to hear over here, counsel.

9243 MR. RHÉAUME: I know there is noise at the back. The entire business of the extended AM band, is this totally without merit according to you?

9244 MR. CAINE: For us?

9245 MR. RHÉAUME: Well, for you and just in general if you want.

9246 MR. CAINE: In general, I wouldn't necessarily say so. There may be specific applications of the extended band, both 1610 and 1670, for specific purposes. One assumes, of course, that you can find a transmitter site to put it on.

9247 For our purposes, we did look at the extended band. Just about a year ago we asked Wayne Stacey, an Engineering Consultant well known to the Commission, we asked him to provide us with some technical analysis of what our options might be.

9248 Amongst other options, Mr. Stacey did look at those two frequencies. His conclusions and recommendations were that the best possible technical solution, if you will, for us to reach the 50-plus audience was 740.

9249 We also engaged Gordon Elder, whom you have heard at this hearing. Mr. Elder happens to be our Consulting Engineer for 1250 and 1320. He too has mentioned this to us. The limitations he talked about with those two frequencies at this hearing he has made known to us as well.

9250 We are also aware that especially within the fifty-plus audience, which are AM friendly that is true, but many of the radios that they have are unable to accommodate the expanded AM band.

9251 The final reason that we excluded the expanded AM band was the fact that, as I mentioned, the difficulty in finding a transmitter site and the exorbitant cost that might be involved with that. We felt financially much more comfortable in leasing the somewhat expensive lease arrangements of the CBC, but nevertheless that site at Hornby is going to be there a long time and the technical support and so on was much more attractive to us.

9252 MR. RHÉAUME: So when you say, Mr. Caine, that these extended frequencies might work for specific purpose but not for you, what do you mean by that?

9253 MR. CAINE: Well, because of the limitations of them, they would be better suited for, in our opinion, for more direct or limited use. I recall, for example, a couple of years ago, perhaps longer, there was an application before the Commission for a Tamil radio station. I believe they were interested in -- the application was on the extended band.

9254 From a technical standpoint, we did not oppose that application. We did on other grounds, but not on the technical.

9255 MR. RHÉAUME: As I understand the AM band, and correct me if I'm wrong, one would be hard pressed to find a better frequency than 740. Are we comparing everything with 740 here when we sort of brush aside the extended AM band?

9256 MR. CAINE: For our purposes and the audience that we wish to serve, as we have indicated, they are well within the reach of the 740 signal, there are over 2.3 million people who are over fifty. It is, as I indicated in evidence in chief, the need for this frequency or this frequency is commensurate with the need that it is going to fulfil.

9257 I quite like Andy McNabb's answer to that one, to tell you the truth, that it's large enough to fill the biggest need. That's exactly our response as well.

9258 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you. If you were given 740, how long would it take you to be on air?

9259 MR. CAINE: As soon as possible.

9260 MR. RHÉAUME: Within a year?

9261 MR. CAINE: Absolutely.

9262 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you.

9263 Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

9264 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Caine.

9265 MR. CAINE: Thank you very much.

9266 THE CHAIRPERSON: We enjoyed having you before us for the last time in this particular process.

9267 Mr. Secretary, please.

9268 MR. CUSSONS: Madam Chairperson, we have one more competing Toronto radio applicant to respond to all interventions and that is YTV Canada Incorporated.

9269 THE CHAIRPERSON: Ms McNair.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

9270 MR. ROBERTSON: Thank you. It's a pleasure to be in the clean-up position here.

9271 I am Paul Robertson and this is Kathleen McNair. We are pleased to be appearing today to respond to the interventions filed concerning our application for YTV Radio on 740 AM.

9272 First, we wish to acknowledge and thank the intervenors who demonstrated their high level of interest in YTV's application by filing such thoughtful letters of support. These written interventions stand on their own merit.

9273 We would now like to reply to the interventions by CIRPA and CHIN. Both suggest that YTV Radio will not introduce diversity into the Toronto radio market. As you might expect, we disagree.

9274 Of all the applications before you, we believe ours is the one that promises a completely unique service, one that does not exist in Toronto or anywhere in Canada. Our application is not about narrowcasting. Rather, it is the most inclusive AM proposal before you.

9275 YTV Radio will respond to the interests and needs of more than 500,00 children six to eleven from all cultural and racial groups in the 740 coverage area. These children are not just underserved by Toronto radio stations, they are not served at all. Think of it, more than half a million children with no voice in the largest radio market in the country.

9276 CHIN suggests that YTV Radio should not be licensed since there is no need for an unproven radio format in the market. Again, we disagree.

9277 The Angus Reid survey results provide ample evidence there is great demand for our proposal. Ninety-one per cent of those surveyed think that a kids' station is a good idea. The response to YTV Radio demonstrated on our Web site validates the Angus Reid results. Eighty per cent of children six to eleven responded positively to the proposed service.

9278 This is an overwhelming affirmation that kids need and want a radio station that's just for them. Kids are brutally honest. Certainly we must not discount their responses merely because of their age.

9279 We also urge the Commission to focus on our supporting interventions which demonstrate the demand for the service. The Alliance for Children and Television state that the YTV proposal, and I am quoting:

9280 Ben Wicks, cartoonist and founder of the literary program Born to Read writes:

9281 Optimedia, one of Canada's most respected experts in children's media states that:

9282 Rather than recognizing the truly unique nature of our proposal, CHIN and CIRPA suggest that YTV Radio will simply be a Top 40 station masquerading as a children's station. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

9283 The sound of YTV Radio will be like no other station in the marketplace. It will be inclusive in its appeal and reflective of the very diverse, young audience within the 740 coverage area. Children are receptive to new sounds, ideas and cultures. Our programming will give children a sense of place and create a common bond with kids from all backgrounds and cultures across the listening area.

9284 The musical selections will be appropriate for our young audience. We will broaden their interests and horizons by exposing them to an array of genres. The majority of current selections broadcast by Top 40 stations will not be aired. Our review of the current tracks played by Toronto radio stations during the week of January 17 indicate that more than 60 of the selections would not be appropriate for YTV Radio.

9285 Our spoken word programming will also be entirely unique. Where else would you hear children's bedtime stories, kids speaking to kids on air and student radio reporters from schools across the coverage area?

9286 Contrary to CIRPA and CHIN's suggestions, existing radio stations do not program for children. Without a kids' radio station, children will continue to tune to radio that is meant for adults and older teens. Canadian parents have endorsed the kinder and gentler television programs that have become the hallmark of our Canadian producers. Yet there is no radio service appropriate for kids in the Toronto region.

9287 How can we be satisfied when an eight year old girl is repeatedly bombarded by songs with sexual and violent content? Isn't it unfortunate how quickly the adult-oriented media of today propels children towards maturity? Children quickly skip through the most magical time of their lives, a time when wonder and imagination have free rein unfettered by the weight of adult concerns.

9288 Madam Chair and Commissioners, we respectfully submit that this application represents an opportunity for you to take a bold step, to be the first to license a radio service totally dedicated to children, one that speaks to their interests with ideas, programming and role models appropriate for their age group.

9289 It was a bold step that the Commission took when it originally licensed YTV, the first kids' programming service in Canada. Today YTV is a beacon to children in Canada and the engine that has driven the Canadian kids' production industry to become the best in the world. In the same spirit, YTV Radio can make an outstanding contribution to our children and the Canadian broadcasting system.

9290 We believe that Toronto area children not only need their own radio station, they deserve it. However, if a radio station is simply to be reserved for adult audiences or specific ethnic or linguistic groups, then don't license the service.

9291 If radio is seen as a medium primarily for passive entertainment with no room or capacity for development and enrichment of children's minds, then don't license the service. If the Commission believes that children should be seen but not heard, then don't license the service.

9292 But if children really do have a place in radio as well as the other sectors of the broadcasting system, and the Act states that they do, and if radio is perceived as a potent instrument for their entertainment, education and the stimulation of their imaginations, then there is every reason to license this service.

9293 Thank you for your consideration of our application. That concludes our comments.

9294 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Robertson.

9295 Counsel, please.

9296 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

9297 Given that your service, your proposed service, is such a narrowly focused to children type service, would the extended AM band be feasible? Does it make a difference?

9298 MS McNAIR: Yes, it does. Actually we asked our Consulting Engineer, Doug Allen, to look at the coverage of the extended AM band. He informed us that it's not adequate for our target audience. He also informed us that the extended band would require the erection of a tower if a site was available, so he did not see it as a viable option for us.

9299 MR. RHÉAUME: When you say it's not adequate, is it an issue of cost, is it an issue of finding suitable property to erect a tower? When you say it's not adequate, would you elaborate on that?

9300 MS McNAIR: He felt that the coverage we could get out of the extended AM band wouldn't be adequate for us. We are focusing more on, you know, the large 740 coverage area that has more than half a million kids in it.

9301 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you. On 740, how long would it take you to get on air?

9302 MR. ROBERTSON: You would have to hold us back, but certainly less than a year.

9303 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you kindly. Merci.

9304 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

9305 I believe that this completes this part of our hearing. My colleagues and I wish to thank the applicants and their respective teams for their cooperation throughout this process.

9306 We have worked hard together in expanding and clarifying the record, but we nevertheless managed to share a few smiles.

9307 We also thank all the intervenors, those who intervened in writing and those who found the corner of 401 and Keele and appeared before us in person. Again, our thanks to all of you and to my colleagues, of course, for their help.

9308 Mr. Secretary, you are satisfied that this is the end of this part of the process?

9309 MR. CUSSONS: Yes, Madam Chairperson. We have completed all four phases of the competitive process.

9310 THE CHAIRPERSON: We will resume then tomorrow morning at nine o'clock to hear the amendment requested by Dufferin Communications, which is the last part of the agenda.

9311 Thank you and have a good evening.

--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1745,

to resume on Friday, February 11, 2000

at 0900 / L'audience est adjournée à 1745, pour

reprendre le vendredi 11 février 2000 à 0900