ARCHIVED -  Transcript - Hull, QC - 1999/06/29

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

FOR THE CANADIAN RADIO-TELEVISION AND

TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION

TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DU

CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION

ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES

SUBJECT / SUJET:

BROADCASTING APPLICATIONS /

DEMANDES EN RADIODIFFUSION

HELD AT: TENUE À:

Conference Centre Centre des conférences

Outaouais Room Salle Outaouais

Place du Portage Place du Portage

Phase IV Phase IV

Hull, Quebec Hull (Québec)

June 29, 1999 29 juin 1999

Volume 2

Transcripts

In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages

Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be

bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members

and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of

Contents.

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded

verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in

either of the official languages, depending on the language

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.

Transcription

Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues

officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront

bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des

membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience

publique ainsi que la table des matières.

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu

textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée

et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues

officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le

participant à l'audience publique.

Canadian Radio-television and

Telecommunications Commission

Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des

télécommunications canadiennes

Transcript / Transcription

Broadcasting Applications /

Demandes en radiodiffusion

BEFORE / DEVANT:

David McKendry Chairperson / Président

Commissioner / Conseiller

Andrew Cardozo Commissioner / Conseiller

Jean-Marc Demers Commissioner / Conseiller

ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:

Peter McCallum / Commission Counsel /

Annie Paré Avocates du Conseil

Peter Cussons Hearing Manager and

Secretary/ Gérant de

l'audience et Secrétaire

HELD AT: TENUE À:

Conference Centre Centre des conférences

Outaouais Room Salle Outaouais

Place du Portage Place du Portage

Phase IV Phase IV

Hull, Quebec Hull (Québec)

June 29, 1999 29 juin 1999

Volume 2

TABLE OF CONTENTS / TABLE DES MATIÈRES

PAGE

Presentation by / Présentation par:

Seventh-day Adventist Church in Newfoundland

and Labrador 300

Wesley United Church Radio Board 319

Les Médias Acadiens Universitaires Inc. 337

Community Radio Society of Saskatoon 379

Wired World Inc. 429

Norcom Telecommunications Limited 467

Community Focused Canadian Radio (Durham Region) 513

Hull, Quebec / Hull (Québec)

--- Upon resuming on Tuesday, June 29, 1999

at 0900 / L'audience reprend le mardi

29 juin 1999 à 0900

1363 THE CHAIRPERSON: Welcome to the second day of our hearing here in Hull.

1364 Mr. Cussons, could you please call the first appearing party today?

1365 MR. CUSSONS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Good morning, everybody.

1366 First of all, I would just like to announce that yesterday I received a communication from Mr. Joseph Rajda. Mr. Rajda had applied for a new FM radio undertaking to serve Nepean, Ontario and he asked that his application be withdrawn from consideration at this particular hearing.

1367 That being the case, we will now proceed to the next item on our agenda and this is an Application by Seventh-day Adventist Church in Newfoundland and Labrador to renew the broadcasting licence of the radio programming undertaking VOAR Mount Pearl expiring 31 August, 1999 and also to amend the broadcasting licence by adding the following condition of licence:

1368 The Commission notes the apparent failure of the licensee to comply with section 8 of the Radio Regulations, 1986 concerning the provision of logger tapes. The Commission expects the licensee to show cause at this hearing why a mandatory order requiring the licensee to comply with section 8 of the Radio Regulations, 1986 should not be issued.

1369 At this time, I would like to invite Pastor Jamieson to come forward.

1370 Before you make your presentation, sir -- please be seated and make yourself comfortable -- I would like to ask counsel, Peter McCallum, to explain for everyone's understanding what we mean exactly by a mandatory order and what the ramifications are.

1371 Counsel?

1372 MR. McCALLUM: Thank you.

1373 What I am going to say will be addressed to yourself, but it is also addressed to other people in the room in the sense that other people are coming forward for mandatory orders. I will take a few minutes to address the possible issuance of a mandatory order, which is before the Panel today.

1374 A mandatory order may be issued under section 12 of the Broadcasting Act. The relevant portions of section 12 are as follows. Subsection 12(1) says:

1375 Subsection 12(2) of the Act provides that:

1376 In the case of the Seventh-day Adventist Church in Newfoundland and Labrador, VOAR, what is under discussion today is the possibility of issuing a mandatory order requiring compliance with section 8 of the Radio Regulations, 1986 that require a licensee to retain a clear tape recording of all matters broadcast and furnish the tape to the Commission, upon request.

1377 To summarize what a mandatory order will entail in this case, after hearing and considering the matter the Panel may decide to issue a mandatory order which would be filed with the Federal Court of Canada and served personally on VOAR in the usual fashion that any court document may be served. Thereafter, under section 13(1) of the Act, the Commission's mandatory order would in fact become an order of the Court and would be enforceable in the same manner as any court order.

1378 Under the Federal Court Rules, anyone who disobeys an order of the Federal Court is guilty of contempt of court. So, if a mandatory order were issued and VOAR subsequently failed to comply with these logger tape requirements, the Commission would provide evidence of such failure to the Court and, thereafter, a show cause hearing for contempt of court would take place before the Federal Court of Canada. VOAR would be entitled to present a defence and, if found guilty of contempt, it would be subject to a fine, as set out by the Court.

1379 As you are aware, the Seventh-day Adventist Church in Newfoundland and Labrador has been called upon today to show cause at this hearing why a mandatory order should not issue. This means that you have the burden of convincing the Panel why the Commission should not issue a mandatory order.

1380 I trust this makes the mandatory order procedures very clear.

1381 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, Pastor Jamieson. I will ask Commissioner Cardozo to ask you some questions.

1382 I should have asked first, though, if you would like to have an opening statement that you would like to make to us.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

1383 PASTOR JAMIESON: Yes, I do.

1384 Honourable Chairperson and Members of the Commission, good morning. My name is David Jamieson. I am the President of the Seventh-day Adventist Church in Newfoundland and Labrador and here representing ratio station VOAR today, which is operated by our denomination.

1385 VOAR has been operating as a Christian radio station for 70 years. In 1951, it already had begun airing religious programming representing various religious persuasions. Since its inception in 1929, it has endeavoured to have significant community involvement and to provide a community service to people of various faiths. VOAR has endeavoured to seriously fulfil the mandate of the CRTC in regards to radio broadcasting.

1386 We have been summoned here today to address an alleged violation of section 8.5 and 8.6 of the 1986 CRTC Radio Regulations. We understand the process of and the need for the CRTC to audit radio broadcasting, just as there is a need for financial auditors to audit the finances of our organization. We are very serious about being in total compliance with CRTC Regulations.

1387 On September the 12th of 1994, our radio station was in a situation of non-compliance with the CRTC Radio Regulations, section 2.2(3), "Canadian and Musical Content", and we wish to state that since that time VOAR has increased the Canadian content of its musical selections and has consistently complied with and exceeded the CRTC Regulations.

1388 On July the 20th and 26th of 1997, there was an alleged violation of section 8.5 and 8.6 of the CRTC Radio Regulations dealing with the logging of aired radio programming. The VOAR Management Committee has investigated the alleged violation and we are cognizant of the fact that on July the 20th and 26th there was, indeed, a technical problem with our logging equipment, as well as an error committed by a temporary student worker that caused VOAR to violate this section of the CRTC Radio Regulations.

1389 In a letter to the CRTC dated March the 23rd, 1998, Cameron Beirele, the station manager at that time, stated that:

1390 As a result of our investigation, the VOAR Management Committee and the Board of Directors of the Seventh-day Adventist Church in Newfoundland and Labrador have taken the following steps to ensure that this violation will not occur again.

1391 First, a total review of the operations of radio station VOAR was conducted to ensure that the station meets and exceeds the CRTC Radio Regulations. The review includes the following specifics.

1392 Direction was given in regards to Canadian content in musical selections by increasing the number of Canadian musical selections and designating the exact times in the hourly formatting clock when a Canadian musical selection must be played on the air. Staff were clearly instructed to voluntarily exceed the minimum requirement of 10 per cent for Canadian content in music and continue to diligently do so.

1393 Also, shortly after the incident of July 20 and 26, 1997 when the error was committed with the logging tape, all staff were notified that non-compliance with the CRTC Radio Regulations concerning the logging of daily programming was totally unacceptable. Therefore, specific training was given by the station manager to all staff concerning the daily monitoring of the logging tapes and equipment and notices of reminder, as well as a checklist for staff to follow at the end of each shift, were also posted in both the production and on-air studios.

1394 Second, at a recent VOAR Management Committee meeting it was voted to purchase a sophisticated computerized logger system with a portable JAZ drive to ensure that there will be no possibility for staff negligence in the future in regards to the operation of the logging equipment. This system has already been ordered and is scheduled to be installed by August the 1st, 1999. Documentation on this computer logging system is attached as an appendix to the presentation. It is on the last page.

1395 Thirdly, the VOAR Management Committee also voted to install a VCR-based back-up to the computer logging system to ensure that there will not be a logging equipment failure in the future. This logging equipment back-up system is also scheduled to be put into operation by August the 1st, 1999.

1396 The VOAR Management Committee and the Board of Directors of the Seventh-day Adventist Church in Newfoundland and Labrador believes that these are necessary and prudent steps required to ensure that our radio station is in full compliance with CRTC Regulations in the future. We also value any additional input from the CRTC that will assist us in doing just that in the future.

1397 Yours truly, David Jamieson, President, on behalf of the VOAR Management Committee and the Seventh-day Adventist Church in Newfoundland and Labrador.

1398 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

1399 I will now turn you over again to Commissioner Cardozo for some questions.

1400 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

1401 Thank you, Pastor, for your presentation today and outlining the steps you are taking. Before we get to the specific issues of the tapes, I just wanted to get a little bit of background about your station and get a sense of the kind of service you provide.

1402 You say you have been in service since 1951. How would you define the kind of music that you play?

1403 PASTOR JAMIESON: We have been operating since 1929. This is our 70th anniversary. We have a contemporary Christian inspirational format at our radio station servicing the Christian community throughout the Avalon Peninsula of Newfoundland.

1404 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And what is the size of the population there that you are serving?

1405 PASTOR JAMIESON: The Avalon Peninsula has a population base of about 250,000 people.

1406 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: You say you also provide service to other faiths. Are there other faith groups who are using your station as well?

1407 PASTOR JAMIESON: We air radio programming from various Christian ministries and provide opportunity for local pastors and individuals to be involved in the radio station sharing devotional thoughts and that sort of thing.

1408 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay, thanks.

1409 Let me go through some of the specific issues. Your presentation today has been fairly helpful. I may repeat some of those areas, but the purpose of today is really to get as much information as we can from you to determine, as counsel said, whether or not we would be issuing a mandatory order. So, if I am repetitive, it is only because I would like to give you as much opportunity as possible to place these issues on the record. The way it works is that following this meeting, at a later date we will be reviewing all the information before us and then making the decision.

1410 Can I ask you to review for us the reasons of the non-compliance? You mentioned there was a student who was on duty, as it were, and the tape ran out. Is that basically what it was all about?

1411 PASTOR JAMIESON: During the summer months, we are utilizing student workers through government grants, volunteer workers especially as the paid staff persons are on vacation, that sort of a thing. Apparently, as I am told -- I was not in this position at that time -- there was a problem where one of the student workers did not understand that they needed to replace a logging tape at the end of the shift. There was insufficient tape time remaining and that brought about the violation. Apparently, that happened on the 20th and the 26th, which I believe are both weekends when we utilize the students and volunteers the most.

1412 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: In a few minutes we will get to the issue of the new equipment that you purchased, which is to be installed, is it, August the 1st of this year?

1413 PASTOR JAMIESON: August the 1st, 1999.

1414 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Let's talk about between the time of this alleged violation, which is July 1997 and August the 1st of this year. What have you been doing to avoid the reoccurrence of this during this period?

1415 PASTOR JAMIESON: As I mentioned in the presentation, since the violation, staff were notified by the VOAR Management Committee and the current station manager at the time, Cameron Beirele, that this was totally unacceptable and reminder notices were posted, as well as a checklist for these young people who were working at the station, so that they would know the procedures to follow in regards to the logging tapes. At the end of the shift, they have a checklist to fill out to ensure that, indeed, they had changed tapes, as necessary.

1416 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: They have a checklist themselves. Do they hand that over to somebody else to go over?

1417 PASTOR JAMIESON: I think that it's just there as a checklist on a daily basis posted in the studios for individuals to be able to refer to. That was supposed to be the assurance that there wasn't a violation. The station manager would be monitoring as well.

1418 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: What does the station manager have to look at? The checklist is sort of on the wall, I suppose, so you go through it, but is there another record where the individual worker will sign off or something like that?

1419 PASTOR JAMIESON: I am not sure if they have had individuals actually sign on a daily basis as to whether they have completed the instructions or not.

1420 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Would you call it training that the individuals have had?

1421 PASTOR JAMIESON: Yes. The station manager would have definitely taken these young people -- they were all trained. Most of these grants are six or seven-week grants for summer students entering into university, so there is automatic training given as soon as they come to us. Specific training would have been given in regards to how to use the logging equipment.

1422 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: When you say the manager -- you didn't use the word, but I think it was something to the effect of oversees -- "monitors", I think, was the word you used. What is the form of monitoring that they do?

1423 PASTOR JAMIESON: We have a small non-profit station, so the manager is in that radio station probably six days a week. Hands-on, he is there. People are working underneath his supervision. However, on weekends, that sort of a thing, he is not there at all times. I believe that's when these violations took place.

1424 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Are you of the view, then, that during these times he is not there, the violation wouldn't reoccur?

1425 PASTOR JAMIESON: We believe we have taken some steps here to ensure that it will not. We have taken the violation again very seriously and I believe we have taken steps to move towards computerization where volunteers will not be dealing with the logging equipment at all. My understanding is that with the new system it does not need user intervention at all, that there are no tapes that are required. Therefore, it should operate on a 31-day cycle without the need for volunteers or staff to use or touch the machinery at all.

1426 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: This is the new equipment that will be coming effective August the 1st?

1427 PASTOR JAMIESON: That's right. It should be at our location in the next 10 days.

1428 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So, you are comfortable that it is coming on schedule?

1429 PASTOR JAMIESON: Well, we have ordered the equipment and this is what we have been told, that we should have it in our possession in 10 days.

1430 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Just one more question on this interim period. You noted in the letter of the 23rd of March, 1998 that your logger machine was in need of repairs.

1431 PASTOR JAMIESON: Those repairs were effected at that time. Apparently, there were some faulty cables that needed to be replaced and they were, indeed, replaced. I believe that would have resulted in the poor audio quality of the tape, if I am understanding it correctly.

1432 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: On the new equipment that starts on August the 1st, there are two things here. One is, I guess, your A and B, the main tape function and then a back-up system. Is that right?

1433 PASTOR JAMIESON: Yes, it is.

1434 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: They will both start at that time?

1435 PASTOR JAMIESON: Yes.

1436 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So, they will be running simultaneously.

1437 Who will be running that equipment?

1438 PASTOR JAMIESON: We have a station manager and other staff who will be involved with an engineer from another profit radio station in our region, who will set the equipment up, put it into operation as soon as we are able to and before August the 1st, 1999. Again my understanding is once the equipment is set up, it will operate in automation without anyone having to touch it in any way.

1439 It is supposed to be able to operate in such a way that it records logging of programming for 31 days. It automatically rolls over at the end of that time period and has instant file access. It is capable of storing a month's worth of logging audio without any user intervention, so there is no need for announcers or staff to change any tapes whatsoever. That also precludes the possibility of any tapes breaking if there are no tapes that are necessary. Then I am led to understand --

1440 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Is it a hard drive type of --

1441 PASTOR JAMIESON: Yes, it is. It has a portable Omega JAZ 2 gigabyte removable drive. I have a limited knowledge of computers, but my understanding is that if the CRTC sends documentation asking for logging tapes for a given week, within 30 minutes we are able to archive the required logging that is needed and send the removable JAZ drive along to you folks. That's my understanding.

1442 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So, it can separately record for the specific days that we are looking for?

1443 PASTOR JAMIESON: Yes. We wanted to take every step that we could to ensure that this does not take place again. The information that has been given to me from folks that are in the radio broadcasting field, from within the expertise that we have at our station and outside to public radio stations and dealing with their engineers, this is what they recommended for us to do. Under the circumstances, with one violation already having occurred, we felt that this was prudent, necessary and needed to do.

1444 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So, it is a 31-day roll-over system. Does that mean that at any time you have the previous 31 days or the previous 30 days recorded?

1445 PASTOR JAMIESON: I believe the answer to that is yes.

1446 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Let me just ask you a couple of closing questions.

1447 To the best of your knowledge, can you assure the Commission that at this moment, especially as you are moving into the new equipment, the station's programming complies entirely with the Regulations and its conditions of licence? I say this in light of the fact that this is the second time the VOAR has been in non-compliance.

1448 PASTOR JAMIESON: Yes, to the best of my knowledge, it is. I asked those exact questions before I left Newfoundland yesterday of station staff. They said to me that, yes, they are in compliance.

1449 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: With respect to the possible issuance of a mandatory order, as outlined in the Public Notice, do you want to provide any further evidence or any further thoughts to indicate that the station is now and will remain in compliance with the Regulations and the conditions of licence?

1450 PASTOR JAMIESON: Nothing other than to say that we have taken the matter very seriously and are taking every step that we are aware of, at least at this point in time, to ensure that it doesn't take place. If there is anything that we are not cognizant of or have not taken into account, again we are certainly willing to consider anything else that needs to be done to ensure that there is no further violation.

1451 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you, that covers my questions.

1452 Thank you, Mr. Chair.

1453 THE CHAIRPERSON: I have a question for you on the Reelogger system that you are acquiring. This may be a little dangerous because I don't know a lot about computers, either. So, with two people who don't know a lot about computers, talking about them may not be all that productive.

1454 As I understand the appendix, the recordings will be stored on the Reelogger's server. It will be transmitted, presumably, over the Internet and it will not be stored on your premises, it will be stored remotely in, presumably, a server, whoever provides this service. Is that right?

1455 PASTOR JAMIESON: I didn't get that impression. Maybe you are right.

1456 THE CHAIRPERSON: It says, "Store an entire month online." I note that part of the equipment that comes with it is a modem. You can correct me. I take it from this that everything will be stored on a remote server and you can access that to store whatever days you wanted on your JAZ drive if we requested it. Is that your understanding as well?

1457 PASTOR JAMIESON: Well, it is and it isn't. Somehow I was under the impression that we, using this computer system, have it also stored on site, but I could be wrong. Again it's not my field of expertise.

1458 THE CHAIRPERSON: My question was leading to whether or not you would put procedures in place to ensure that the system was functioning as it was intended to function. If it is in fact being transmitted or streamed directly to a server somewhere else, for example, will there be procedures in place to make sure that that is actually happening and it won't be 30 days later when you realize that it didn't happen?

1459 PASTOR JAMIESON: We will ask that question of our engineer as soon as we return, but I am relying on his expertise. He is volunteering for us and works at a public radio station in St. John's as their paid engineer. He has been in that position for a number of years, so I am relying on the expertise of people who supposedly know their field.

1460 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks very much.

1461 MR. McCALLUM: Just one question. In your presentation this morning, you said shortly after the incident of July 1997 specific training was given by the station manager to all staff concerning the daily monitoring of the logging tapes. Has that training been repeated since 1997?

1462 PASTOR JAMIESON: Yes, it has. As I left Newfoundland yesterday, we had another young person starting as a student grant worker and they were going through that process with that individual yesterday. There will be two others who will be coming on staff as student grant workers for the summer in the next couple of weeks and they, too, will have that training. Staff has been trained as they have come on as volunteers on an ongoing basis.

1463 MR. McCALLUM: So, each person that steps into the station, whether as personnel or as a volunteer, gets some sort of training?

1464 PASTOR JAMIESON: Yes, they do.

1465 MR. McCALLUM: Thank you.

1466 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much for appearing in front of us today.

1467 We will now call the next party, please, Mr. Cussons.

1468 MR. CUSSONS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

1469 We will now hear an application by Wesley United Church Radio Board to renew the broadcasting licence of the radio programming undertaking VOWR St. John's, Newfoundland, expiring 31 August, 1999.

1470 The Commission notes the apparent failure of the licensee to comply with section 8 of the Radio Regulations, 1986 concerning the provision of logger tapes. The Commission expects the licensee to show cause at this hearing why a mandatory order requiring the licensee to comply with section 8 of the Radio Regulations, 1986 should not be issued.

1471 I would like to invite Mr. Tessier to come forward and make his presentation, but I think first again counsel will have a couple of comments on the mandatory order option.

1472 Counsel?

1473 MR. McCALLUM: Thank you.

1474 I will just make a couple of quick comments.

1475 I believe, Mr. Tessier, you were in the room when I read the comments?

1476 MR. TESSIER: Yes.

1477 MR. McCALLUM: Thank you.

1478 In the case of the Wesley United Church VOWR, one of the questions under consideration by the Panel today again is the possible issuance of a mandatory order requiring compliance with section 8 of the Radio Regulations, requiring licensees to keep a clear logger tape recording of all matters broadcast and furnish a copy to the Commission, upon request.

1479 If a mandatory order is issued as a result of today's deliberations and VOWR subsequently failed to comply with the logger tape requirements, the Commission would provide evidence of such failure to the Federal Court and, thereafter, a show cause hearing for contempt of court would take place before the Federal Court of Canada. VOWR would be entitled to present a defence and, if found guilty of contempt, would be subject to a fine, as set by the Court.

1480 As you are aware, VOWR has been called to show cause why a mandatory order should not issue. This means that you have the burden of convincing the Panel that they should not issue a mandatory order. I hope this makes this clear.

1481 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

1482 Good morning, Mr. Tessier. Please proceed with your presentation.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

1483 MR. TESSIER: Thank you very much.

1484 I can say, much as your speaker from VOAR, we, too, are very much concerned about compliance with the Radio Regulations. I have to say I am not unaware of the CRTC and the Regulations. I have been in the business since 1954 -- that goes back a few years -- with private industry.

1485 Having taken over the manager's job at VOWR just a few years ago, of course, my initial encounter with the Regulations came when we were below Canadian content just before the last licence renewal. I was in a position of having to resolve that problem and put in place checks that would make sure and ensure that we did comply with Canadian content. We are, indeed, well above the content now with about 32 per cent Canadian.

1486 Our programming is quite diverse. About 20 per cent of our programming is religious in nature. The rest we consider to be a ministry of music to senior citizens and covers virtually all the various forms of music one might encounter, whether it be classical, religious, country, easy listening, and we feel that in serving that need we are serving the needs of our listeners.

1487 Of course, quite different from commercial stations, we don't have ratings to consider, so we don't have to cater to the masses. We try to cater to our audience, which is quite substantial and, generally speaking, covers the eastern part of Newfoundland, about 200,000 in total. I feel we are providing a good service to people in what we consider to be alternative radio listening.

1488 My presentation this morning is quite short, but covers, I think, our concerns in terms of the non-compliance of the logging regulation.

1489 Radio Station VOWR was founded in 1924 by the then Minister of Wesley United Church. The founder considered a church radio station as a means of extending the range of the church's work by carrying the church and its message into the homes and communities otherwise isolated from its services.

1490 At the beginning, only the services from Wesley Church were broadcast, but soon the station took on an ecumenical cloak and today services are broadcast each Sunday from churches of all faiths. It is interesting to note that in the church service held to celebrate the 75th anniversary of VOWR just a few weeks ago, the Roman Catholic Archbishop of Eastern Newfoundland, representatives of the Anglican congregation, the Salvation Army and as well 10 choirs from various churches in and around the city of St. John's participated.

1491 For 75 years VOWR has provided eastern Newfoundland with a form of radio listening that has served its listeners in a humanitarian way by broadcasting hospital reports in those early days and disaster reports in the days when there was virtually no other means of communication. This type of service continues today as hundreds of public service announcements are aired each week.

1492 As further evidence of the high regard in which VOWR is held, when our transmitting antenna collapsed in an ice storm some years ago, the facilities of a major radio station were offered and accepted when their antenna was made available to us. There has been very good cooperation between ourselves and some of the commercial stations.

1493 While VOWR operates with a volunteer staff, the station is concerned greatly that requirements of all aspects of the broadcast regulations are followed. In the area of logging of the transmission, past difficulties experienced have seen definitive action taken. The very thin tape required to log a full day developed some problems when repaired areas separated causing further breaks.

1494 This, by the way, was caused by an earlier machine that we had, which did cause a lot of tape damage, as we, unfortunately, discovered. These repairs, of course, were not satisfactory, as it turned out, and we had to take action there.

1495 To overcome this difficulty, a new set of reel-to-reel tapes was put in service, obtained from the only source which we found to be in Europe at a cost of nearly $1,000. With these new tapes, the problem appears to have been resolved.

1496 The more recent instance, where one logging tape was not properly recorded, was caused by operator error in mistakenly reversing the tape to record on the wrong side because this new tape functions opposite to the standard audio tape. Recording is done on the shiny side and not on the dull side, as has been the practice for many years.

1497 To prevent any tape malfunction in the primary logging machine, a second logger has been obtained and a silent sensor will automatically start its operation if the primary unit develops a recording problem. In addition, an audible alarm will advise the on-duty staff if a problem does develop or if a problem occurs.

1498 In summary, we would submit that the two instances cited with respect to the logger tapes did not occur due to any disregard or lack of concern or appreciation of CRTC rules and regulations. Indeed, we took appropriate remedial action after each occurrence, which we felt would free the system from similar problems in the future. With the installation of the second logging machine and intensive training and instruction to those volunteers operating the equipment, we feel confident that potential problems in this area have all been completely eliminated.

1499 We trust that this remedial action taken will satisfactorily address your concerns.

1500 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

1501 I was struck by your comment that there was only one source for these tapes in Europe at what appears to be a relatively high cost. Is that leaving you a little vulnerable for the future, being so dependent on only one source?

1502 MR. TESSIER: I think we have covered it pretty well. We found, of course, with our present logger that there was virtually no tape damage, so we know now where we can obtain tapes if we need them. We went through quite a period here in Canada trying to find a source of these thin 3,600 foot reels of tape and it turned out, I think, it was Holland or Belgium that our supplier got them for us. We know where to get them now, so I don't think that would be a problem in the future.

1503 THE CHAIRPERSON: I don't know whether you had an opportunity to hear Pastor Jamieson's presentation. He discussed a system that they are installing that appears to do away with tapes and use computers and floppy disks and hard drives and so on to store the information. Have you thought at all about that system?

1504 MR. TESSIER: In essence, the action we have taken now we consider to be, I guess, temporary in nature. We are looking at hard-disk logging as well in the future and it's a question of the cost and where it's going to lead us in that direction. I think we will be going that route, but my concern -- and I heard them expressed earlier here -- is at the end of 30 days, if you go look for what you think you have in the computer, you want to be sure it's going to be there. We don't want to go down this road again. So, we are doing a little work in that direction and somewhere in the future we will be going with the hard disk type of logging, I guess.

1505 THE CHAIRPERSON: As Commissioner Cardozo said to Pastor Jamieson, some of the questions I ask you may seem a bit repetitive in light of your presentation, but we want to make sure that we have a full and complete record and give you every opportunity to inform us about what you have done. As I say, I may be going over some of the ground you have already put in front of us, but our object is to make sure we have all the information we need when we retire to consider whether or not we should issue a mandatory order.

1506 You have indicated to us in a letter of April 6, 1998 that to ensure this problem is not repeated you have attached special instructions to each tape box to remind all staff of the difference in sides of the logger tapes. Do you believe that this measure is sufficient and do you plan to have any hands-on training sessions with the volunteers to ensure that they understand the proper functioning of the logger tape machine?

1507 MR. TESSIER: Yes. We took action in that direction as the immediate action to take, but, in addition to that, I can say we do ongoing hands-on training. I am at the station on a six-day-a-week basis, in fact I supervise the logging operation ever since we ran into these problems, and I ensure that the on-duty person has done the right thing at the right time.

1508 In addition to that, we change our logging tapes at midnight each day and on the program log for each day there is a reminder for the operator to not only change the tape, but make sure he does it properly. We haven't had any problem at all since this incident some time ago.

1509 THE CHAIRPERSON: Is there someone responsible to verify the proper functioning of the logger tape machine, as well as the tape quality? If the answer to that is "yes", can you please explain his or her exact duties and how often is this performed?

1510 MR. TESSIER: Yes, actually, that's done. It's done, actually, by myself because again since we ran into trouble, I don't want to take any further chances. I do check the tape on an ongoing basis, usually several times a day, actually, to make sure the thing is functioning. In checking it everyday, I have found no problem since the last incident where the tape was blank. There has been no problem. The machine works well, it gets serviced on a regular basis, and the staff are quite familiar now with the type of tape we are using and that sort of thing. It has eliminated the problems that we did experience.

1511 THE CHAIRPERSON: You touched on this in your presentation to us, but I will ask you the question. If you think you need to add anything to what you told us earlier, please do so.

1512 Do you have a back-up system in case of failure of the main logger tape machine?

1513 MR. TESSIER: We didn't in the past, but the new system we are putting in will in fact be a back-up. In fact it's a duplicate or similar model machine. The Reevox reel-to-reel machine is quite similar to the one in operation.

1514 The way this will work is it will sense the output of the original of number one machine and if that drops off indicating it's not recording, the second machine will be loaded and will automatically start. As the silent sensor knows, if the first one is giving trouble, it will then switch to the second machine. That will ensure continuation of the recording and, as I see it, will solve our problems for the immediate future.

1515 THE CHAIRPERSON: Pastor Jamieson mentioned when I was discussing with him their new system that they are installing that he was getting some technical advice from an engineer at a commercial radio station. Do you have any relationships with any of the technical staff at commercial radio stations in terms of being able to call on them with respect to advice around logger tape machines and so on?

1516 MR. TESSIER: Yes, as a matter of fact, we do. Pastor Jamieson uses the services of an engineer and that engineer's boss is our engineer, so we have quite professional help. A big problem has existed in recent months in that this gentlemen, who perhaps you may know or may not, has a very serious health problem. That has been a problem for us in the last little while because we haven't been able to avail of his services, but now he has returned and has gotten involved and will continue to be for the immediate future.

1517 THE CHAIRPERSON: This is the second time that VOWR has been in non-compliance with the Radio Regulations, once in 1994 with the Canadian content levels in category 2 and category 3 music and now with the logger tapes. To the best of your knowledge, can you assure the Commission that at this moment the station's programming complies entirely with the Regulations and its condition of licence?

1518 MR. TESSIER: Oh, no doubt about it. I have no hesitation in guaranteeing that we are in compliance with Canadian content. We put checks in place where each individual who does any programming now has to record the Canadian content selection by selection and has to ensure that each program stands by itself with 30 per cent Canadian content. Then these forms are turned in daily and then weekly. We assess them and know exactly where we stand. I can tell you in a moment at home where we are with Canadian content and we are well within the Regulations.

1519 THE CHAIRPERSON: This will be my last question for you.

1520 With respect to the possible issuance of a mandatory order, as outlined in the Notice of Public Hearing, do you wish to provide any further evidence to indicate that the station VOWR is now and will remain in compliance with the Regulations and its conditions of licence?

1521 MR. TESSIER: No, other than to say that we are certainly more than anxious to comply and are doing, I think, everything we can to comply. When problems have existed, we have cleared them up very quickly. The Canadian content was a case in point where I inherited that, actually. I had just taken over the station just before our last licence renewal and very quickly we put checks in place to solve that one.

1522 With the logging problems, I think we have solved that. I am sure we have solved it with the system we are putting in. As well as mentioned earlier, somewhere in the future we will go to hard-disk logging if and when I can be assured that the computer will have what we want in it when we go to look for it. I have a bit of concern about that because, as you have mentioned -- and I am much in the same boat -- I am not a computer expert, so I have to tread cautiously in that direction.

1523 No, I am confident that we can and will live within the Regulations. There is no question in my mind about that.

1524 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

1525 Our counsel, Mr. McCallum, I think has a question or two for you.

1526 MR. McCALLUM: Thank you.

1527 Just for clarification, if I could, on the back-up system that you referred to in your presentation, when will it be in place?

1528 MR. TESSIER: We are hoping within two weeks. Mid-July was the date we looked at, so I think we can live with that. The last I had heard, it was being shipped. When I left to come up here it was being shipped, so it should be there very quickly. It will go in place the minute we get it, which should be within two weeks.

1529 MR. McCALLUM: I take it it has just recently been ordered?

1530 MR. TESSIER: Yes, that's right. As mentioned, our engineering advisor was ill until very recently, so we sort of were delayed in getting this system rolling. It was ordered, I guess, about three weeks ago now.

1531 MR. McCALLUM: So, I take it up to now there has been no back-up system at all in place.

1532 MR. TESSIER: No, that's right. As I say, we are very vulnerable there and concerned about it, especially with the situation where we had the blank tape. That put us on notice that we had to do something, but, unfortunately, we were delayed because of the illness of our technical advisor.

1533 MR. McCALLUM: Just in terms of installation, the only thing it depends on then, I take it, is actual receipt of the equipment and then getting professional help to install it in the station. Is that it?

1534 MR. TESSIER: Yes. Really, the installation is not very involved. Primarily, it's receipt of the equipment and once it's received, it will be same-day installation pretty well.

1535 MR. McCALLUM: I see. So, as you said, you would expect within two to three weeks?

1536 MR. TESSIER: Yes, indeed. In fact I would like to think it's going to be there when I get home, but that may be a little ambitious. It's not far away. We are working very actively on it.

1537 MR. McCALLUM: Just to clarify one other point, you talked about the hard-disk logging system that you are considering for the future. How far advanced are your plans in that?

1538 MR. TESSIER: We are just in the very early stages. I just talked to our technical man last week, really. This came up when we were talking about the other system, that some time in the future we should be looking at transferring or changing over to hard-disk logging.

1539 MR. McCALLUM: Could I infer that you are not likely to have that system in place during 1999?

1540 MR. TESSIER: No. Oh, no, no question. I would say it will be a year or so down the road. Cost is probably the biggest factor for us, of course. Once we find some money, I think we will probably go and do it, but I would say we are talking at least a year away.

1541 MR. McCALLUM: I take it also you have training for people that come in and have to manipulate the machine.

1542 MR. TESSIER: Yes, it's ongoing. We don't have a very big turnover in our staff, fortunately. We have a total of 80 volunteers, of which about 50 per cent -- about 40 of them -- are active in the station's day-to-day operation. That has been pretty settled for quite a long time. So, there isn't really a training problem per se in terms of new people because our people are trained and once they are there, it falls into place that they know what they are doing.

1543 MR. McCALLUM: But everybody who manipulates the logging machine receives some sort of training about its functioning?

1544 MR. TESSIER: Oh, yes, that's right, and ongoing. From time to time, I do spot checks with people just to make sure that things are going right. As mentioned, on a daily basis I check the tape to make sure that it has been loaded properly and to make sure that whoever was on previously has done the right thing. The thing about it is, of course, that our tapes are changed at midnight and in the nighttime is when we have our most experienced people at the station. So, that serves well in this particular situation.

1545 MR. McCALLUM: I take it also this memo to "All Operating Staff", dated the 1st of September, 1998, is evidence you are tendering that you have taken steps to rectify the problem.

1546 MR. TESSIER: Yes. I thought it would be useful for the Commission to see what I actually had done back in September for the staff. This was issued to each member, actually, just to remind them of their responsibility there and the actual operation of the machine with this particular tape we were using because that was where the confusion arose in that particular instance where we had the blank tape. The person involved hadn't been there for a month. We had changed tapes and it just got caught in the system there that we had this one instance.

1547 MR. McCALLUM: Thank you.

1548 Thank you, Mr. Chair.

1549 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for your appearance today.

1550 Could you please call the next party, Mr. Cussons?

1551 M. CUSSONS: Merci, Monsieur le Président. La prochaine requête sera celle de les médias acadiens universitaires en vue de renouveler la licence de radiodiffusion de l'entreprise de programmation de radio campus communautaire CKUM-FM Moncton qui expire le 31 août 1999.

1552 Le Conseil constate l'état d'infraction présumé de la titulaire de se conformer à l'article 8 du Règlement de 1986 sur la radio concernant la soumission des rubans-témoins.

1553 Le Conseil s'attend à ce que la titulaire lui démontre à cette audience les raisons pour lesquelles une ordonnance ne devrait pas être émise obligeant la titulaire à se conformer à l'article 8 du Règlement de 1986 sur la radio.

1554 Monsieur McCallum?

1555 M^e McCALLUM: Je prends pour acquis que vous étiez présent lors de la présentation des modalités de l'ordonnance tout à l'heure?

1556 M. WARD: Oui.

1557 M^e McCALLUM: Donc, vous êtes conscient que le Conseil peut émettre une ordonnance, peut enregistrer cette ordonnance auprès de la Cour fédérale et peut prendre des mesures en outrage de tribunal si jamais il y a une autre infraction? Vous êtes au courant de tout cela?

1558 M. WARD: Oui, c'est compris.

1559 M^e McCALLUM: Merci beaucoup.

1560 THE CHAIRMAN: Please proceed.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

1561 M. WARD: Bonjour à tous, messieurs les commissaires.

1562 J'aimerais débuter mon allocution en présentant les excuses du président des Médias acadiens universitaires incorporés, M. Eric Larocque, pour son absence aujourd'hui. M. Larocque est impliqué dans l'organisation des 20^e Jeux de l'Acadie, événement sportif et culturel de grande importance pour les jeunes de notre communauté acadienne. Il m'a confié la tâche et la confiance du conseil d'administration afin de répondre à notre infraction aux paragraphes 8(5) et 8(6) du Règlement de 1986 sur la radio survenue lors de notre évaluation pendant la semaine du 31 mai au 6 juin 1998.

1563 J'aimerais débuter en mettant la situation en contexte. Nous reconnaissons l'importance de notre infraction. D'ailleurs, nous avons reconnu notre infraction honnêtement lors de la soumission de notre auto-évaluation. Il est difficile de justifier la ou les raisons de cette infraction sans tenir compte de plusieurs facteurs tant au niveau technique que l'environnement professionnel.

1564 Il est clair que les Médias acadiens universitaires incorporés sont tout à fait désolés de cette infraction. Elle représente un virement important dans son histoire et ses responsabilités délaissées. Sachez que la situation n'a pas été traitée légèrement. Selon mon interprétation, les infractions traitent du délai trop grand pour soumettre notre dossier et les rubans-témoins incomplets pour la semaine du 31 mai au 6 juin 1998.

1565 LE PRÉSIDENT: Excusez, monsieur, peut-être ne pas aller trop vite pour la traduction et vous êtes-vous identifié?

1566 M. WARD: Je suis Paul Ward, le directeur général de la station CKUM.

1567 M. BOULAY: Robert Boulay de l'Alliance des radios communautaires du Canada.

1568 M. WARD: Pardon. Je vais aller un peu plus lentement -- je suis un petit peu nerveux.

1569 Notre allocution adressera en premier lieu l'infraction au paragraphe 8(6), suivi de celle au paragraphe 8(5) et en terminant avec notre conclusion si je comprends bien. J'ai peut-être mal interprété la politique.

1570 L'infraction au paragraphe 8(6) se lit comme suit, et je cite:

1571 Nous reconnaissons que le dossier des Médias acadiens universitaires incorporés a été demandé par le Conseil le 3 juin 1998 et que notre dossier n'a été soumis que le 10 août 1998.

1572 J'occupe le poste de directeur général de la station campus communautaire depuis un peu moins d'un an, soit depuis le 6 juillet 1998. Le congédiement de mon prédécesseur, M. Sylvain Montreuil, a eu lieu le 3 juin de cette même année et l'intérim a été assuré par Julie Bélanger, présidente des Médias acadiens universitaires inc., à ce moment organisme de gestion de CKUM-FM. Mme Bélanger avait été élue seulement en avril et ne possédait pas toutes les connaissances nécessaires pour gérer la station, d'autant plus que M. Montreuil n'a pas assuré une transition compte tenu des circonstances de son congédiement.

1573 Le dossier de l'auto-évaluation avait été laissé de côté afin de procéder le plus rapidement au processus d'embauche de la direction générale. Malheureusement Mme Bélanger ne connaissant pas l'ampleur de la décision du conseil d'administration des Médias acadiens universitaires inc. de laisser le dossier de côté d'autant plus qu'elle avait oublié de retirer les rubans-témoins, situation que nous adressons dans la deuxième section de notre allocution.

1574 Au moment de mon entrée en fonction, j'ai communiqué avec M.Demers du CRTC afin de demander une extension du délai afin de soumettre notre dossier en bonne et due forme. Malheureusement, le dossier de la radio campus communautaire a été beaucoup plus compliqué que prévu. Mes connaissances des réglementations du CRTC et l'historique du dossier de CKUM-FM étaient également limitées. Sous la tutelle de l'Alliance des radios communautaires du Canada, l'ARC, ici présent aujourd'hui, nous avons pu livrer le dossier le 10 août 1998.

1575 Nous reconnaissons que la situation n'excuse pas le retard mais nous ne pouvons pas attribuer la raison d'être de la problématique autrement. Sachez que cette expérience nous a permis de développer une connaissance accrue de la réglementation et des politiques du CRTC pour l'ensemble des membres de l'équipe interne ainsi que celles du conseil d'administration.

1576 Sur cette note il est prévu que suite à l'assemblée générale annuelle d'octobre que tous les membres du conseil d'administration, du personnel ainsi que des bénévoles participeront à une session intensive de formation d'une journée du Règlement de 1986 sur la radio et les composantes de la licence d'exploitation.

1577 Il est également prévu que si un ou une employé(e) ne peut pas assurer la transition du dossier le conseil d'administration préparera une demande auprès de l'Alliance des radios communautaires acadiennes du Nouveau-Brunswick, l'ARCANB ou encore celle de l'ARC du Canada pour une formation de la nouvelle direction générale notamment à l'égard de la réglementation du CRTC et de la licence d'exploitation.

1578 Pour terminer cette section, nous tenons depuis août 1998 un dossier précis et accessible en tout temps aux membres de la radio campus communautaire afin d'assurer une connaissance accrue des politiques du CRTC.

1579 Je procède à l'infraction au paragraphe 8(5) qui se lisait comme suit:

1581 Nous avons reconnu que nos rubans-témoins de la semaine du 31 mai au 6 juin 1998 étaient incomplets lors de la remise du dossier de l'auto-évaluation du 10 août 1998. Il est difficile pour le conseil d'administration ainsi que pour moi-même de justifier cette infraction dû au fait que notre connaissance du dossier de la radio était encore limitée, comme mentionné plus haut. Malgré tout, et suite à une évaluation du système des rubans-témoins, nous avons identifié les lacunes et également les solutions afin de remédier à la problématique.

1582 Il est clair que nos explications fournies lors de la soumission du dossier de l'auto-évaluation, en Annexe A, sont toujours valables. Nous utilisons un système d'enregistrement par trois appareils magnétoscopes VHS avec 93 cassettes, soit trois par jour et d'une durée de 6 heures.

1583 Au moment de l'auto-évaluation, nous avons implanté une première série de nouvelles mesures afin d'assurer un système adéquat pour la tenue des rubans-témoins au 1^er août dernier, donc en 1998, et une deuxième phase prévue pour le 1^er septembre 1999.

1584 Pour la première phase du 1^er août dernier, voici les mesures prises par les Médias acadiens universitaires inc.: nous avons déplacé les appareils d'enregistrement d'un bureau fermé à clé et accessible seulement par les employés au studio de diffusion, visible et accessible en tout temps pour tous. Nous avons également installé tout près des appareils un registre de contrôle exigeant la signature trois fois par jours et validé par moi-même, le directeur général ou le directeur général-adjoint, des personnes responsables confirmant le bon fonctionnement du système d'enregistrement. Nous avons également -- et chose assez ironique -- programmé les magnétoscopes afin d'assurer l'enregistrement automatique des rubans-témoins, et nous avons clairement également identifié par un système numérique les rubans magnétiques afin d'assurer un suivi plus adéquat. Nous avons procédé au nettoyage des magnétoscopes et nous tenons un horaire de maintenance régulière à tous les quatre mois.

1585 La mise en oeuvre de la deuxième phase prendra place un an après notre infraction due aux limites budgétaires de l'organisme, donc dans un mois, il y a un an passé. Les mesures sont les suivantes: nous allons tenir les quatre semaines de diffusion pour une période de 62 jours au lieu de 31 jours avec l'achat de près de 200 nouvelles cassettes magnétiques. A titre d'exemple pour clarifier cette mesure 93 cassettes actives pour le mois de juin seront en studio, donc en enregistrement et 93 cassettes du mois de mai seront en archives et seront ensuite transportées pour la diffusion du mois de juillet, gardant tout le temps un mois en archives. Nous allons tenir un registre hebdomadaire de révision afin d'assurer que les rubans-témoins aient "un enregistrement magnétique clair et intelligible" et que la qualité des cassettes magnétiques soit maintenue.

1586 Nous voulons également installer un module UPS afin d'assurer le fonctionnement des magnétoscopes pour 24 heures consécutives en cas de panne d'électricité éventuelle.

1587 Je voudrais quand même adresser nos infractions sur le facteur humain car je n'étais pas nécessairement en poste mais la situation était quand même assez claire.

L'environnement de la radio campus communautaire avec le congédiement de l'ancien directeur général a créé un climat de non-confiance entre les membres du conseil d'administration, du personnel et de l'équipe des bénévoles. Nous tenons à souligner cette situation en rapport avec l'absence des enregistrements du dimanche 31 mai, lundi 1^er juin et du jeudi 4 juin. Nous reconnaissons que ces explications ne figurent probablement pas dans votre analyse de notre dossier mais il est clair qu'elles clarifient à la base les lacunes humaines reliées à la tenue des rubans-témoins.

1588 Et si vous me le permettez, j'aimerais aller jour par jour sur notre infraction, les bobines qui manquaient.

1589 Le dimanche 31 mai, M. Montreuil, ancien directeur général, était responsable pour l'ouverture de la station les fins de semaine. Tenant compte de l'avis de son congédiement, il a négligé de se présenter et les rubans-témoins n'ont pas été insérés dans les magnétoscopes. De plus, une bénévole appelée pour faire du remplacement ne connaissait pas le système d'enregistrement. Le contenu du mois de mars 1998, donc le 31 mars, était toujours présent sur ces rubans-témoins.

1590 Lundi 1^er juin: les rubans-témoins n'ont pas été retirés au moment de votre demande. L'animateur du matin a utilisé la 1A pour le 1^er juillet. La présidente qui assumait l'intérim a reconnu son erreur et elle a enlevé le ruban. Le manque d'expérience de Mme Bélanger a occasionné une erreur de parcours facilement évitable mais qui résume la lacune avec la cassette 1A, soit la cassette qui enregistre de 6 h à midi.

1591 Pour ce qui est de la cassette 1C, de 18 h à 24 h nous croyons qu'au moment de notre évaluation -- et elle est en annexe -- elle était défectueuse, mais suite à une recherche intensive, elle n'avait pas été rembobinée donc le magnétoscope ne pouvait pas faire l'enregistrement.

1592 De plus, la cassette a été remplacée par une ancienne cassette de mise en ondes effacée. Ces deux facteurs expliquent l'absence de contenu total de la cassette magnétique. Depuis, nous avons interdit à tous de remplacer les cassettes des rubans-témoins pour des besoins de mise en ondes. Nous avons également à un système de récupération pour les cassettes magnétiques pour la mise ne ondes.

1593 Le jeudi 4 juin, suite au climat de non-confiance l'animatrice du matin a quitté la station radiophonique mercredi le 3 juin. Un membre du conseil d'administration mandaté d'ouvrir la station et chargé de mettre une cassette magnétique de mise en ondes ne connaissait par le système du bavard. M. Jean-Guy Landry, animateur en 1998 et aujourd'hui directeur général adjoint et ici présent dans la salle a constaté l'absence de l'enregistrement des rubans-témoins et a débuté l'enregistrement de la cassette 1A à 9 h 30 du matin.

1594 Tel que mentionné plus tôt le climat et les facteurs humains ont joué un grand rôle dans l'infraction. Nous croyons que le climat du congédiement aurait évité cette infraction majeure malgré qu'il n'excuse pas la responsabilité des Médias acadiens universitaires inc. pour la gestion de leur licence.

1595 Pour terminer, nous croyons que les mesures actuelles et futures permettront aux Médias acadiens universitaires inc. d'éviter une répétition éventuelle des infractions aux paragraphes 8(5) et 8(6) du Règlement de 1986 sur la radio.

1596 En conclusion, les Médias acadiens universitaires inc. reconnaissent que cette infraction est notre deuxième infraction majeure du Règlement de 1986 sur la radio de suite pour nos demandes de renouvellement.

1597 Tel qu'indiqué dans la lettre du CRTC du 15 janvier 1999, et je cite:

1598 En accordant à CKUM-FM un renouvellement à court terme, le Conseil soulignait qu'il comptait surveiller de près le rendement de celle-ci au cours de la nouvelle période d'applications de la licence et le respect en tout temps des dispositions du Règlement et des conditions de sa licence."

1599 Nous sommes quand même fiers aujourd'hui d'avoir respecté les conditions à cette non-conformité comme en témoigne votre évaluation de notre contenu vocal de la musique vocale française et de catégorie 3. Notre pourcentage de musique vocale française est évalué à 72,3 pour cent, soit 7,3 pourcent au-dessus de la limite de 65 pour cent, tandis que la catégorie 3 représente environ 15 pour cent de notre programmation, soit 5 pour cent au-dessus de la limite de 10 pour cent.

1600 Il est clair que la station campus communautaire a traversé un moment difficile l'été dernier avec le congédiement de l'ancien directeur général. Le climat négatif, l'inexpérience et mon adaptation par rapport au dossier a malheureusement projeté une image négative.

1601 Soyez assurés, Messieurs les Commissaires, que notre engagement est ferme d'améliorer notre rendement auprès du CRTC pour notre prochain renouvellement en 2004.

1602 Au nom de M. Eric Larocque, président du conseil d'administration des Médias acadiens universitaires, des membres du personnel et les bénévoles, je vous remercie de votre attention. Je suis disponible pour répondre à vos questions.

1603 Avant tout, je vous laisse avec notre assurance que nous prenons cette situation au plus sérieux.

1604 Merci.

1605 LE PRÉSIDENT: Merci. Commissionner Demers will ask you some questions.

1606 COMMISSAIRE DEMERS: Merci, Monsieur le Président. Bonjour, messieurs.

1607 M. WARD: Bonjour.

1608 COMMISSAIRE DEMERS: Peut-être tout de suite, monsieur Ward, pourriez-vous nous dire, puisque vous arrivez tout récemment à la station, je vais poser la question mais ne prenez pas les mots -- d'où venez-vous? C'est-à-dire décrivez-nous un peu qui vous êtes.

1609 M. WARD: A la base je suis un gestionnaire d'entreprise privée, donc j'étais entrepreneur en communications, j'étais consultant pour différents projets communautaires à différents niveaux que ce soit le projet radiophonique de la coopérative où j'ai donné un coup de main à Toronto, également dans plusieurs autres domaines de la santé et tout cela. Donc je suis un entrepreneur et un gestionnaire en premier lieu et c'est la raison pour laquelle les Médias acadiens m'avaient embauché à ce moment-là. La situation financière de la station est précaire et mon mandant est d'essayer de rétablir sa viabilité financière.

1610 Et également j'étais bénévole lorsque j'étais à l'Université de Moncton pour faire mon bac à CKUM, j'étais animateur, j'ai été président des Médias acadiens universitaires. J'ai comparu en 1993 pour une augmentation de licence devant le CRTC, donc j'avais quand même une bonne base de la connaissance de la Réglementation mais au niveau de tous les détails de la licence et tout ça, c'est un peu ça qui me manquant mais sous la tutelle de l'ARC et également de mon collègue Gilles Arseneault qui est directeur général de la Radio à Shédiac, CJSE-FM, j'ai pu quand même m'adapter assez rapidement au dossier.

1611 COMMISSAIRE DEMERS: Merci. Et vous êtes directeur général à plein temps donc?

1612 M. WARD: Oui. On est trois membres du personnel à temps plein et le reste est assumé par des bénévoles.

1613 COMMISSAIRE DEMERS: D'accord. Et vous tenez votre mandat de la corporation qui administre la station?

1614 M. WARD: Oui.

1615 COMMISSAIRE DEMERS: Vous avez fait référence quelques fois à Radio communautaire, radio universitaire et même je vois ça dans le titre du document que vous nous avez distribué. Dans le fond c'est une radio universitaire ou une radio communautaire?

1616 M. WARD: A ma connaissance la licence campus communautaire joue un peu les deux rôles. A la base, notre "membership", notre orientation est vers les étudiants de l'Université. Également on fait beaucoup affaires avec le collège communautaire de la région francophone, la DIEPPE, mais on a un rôle et avant l'arrivée de radio CJSE, radio Beauséjour, on avait un rôle communautaire à ce moment-là beaucoup plus accru également.

1617 A la base les bénévoles doivent composer majoritairement des étudiants de l'université dans différents programmes en communications dans les programmes et c'est dans cette condition qu'on respecte ça mais on est diffusé sur le grand Moncton au complet donc on joue un rôle communautaire également.

1618 Donc ma notion de campus communautaire provient de là.

1619 COMMISSAIRE DEMERS: D'accord. M. Larocque est-ce qu'il est un étudiant ou professeur ou radiocommunicateur?

1620 M. WARD: Non. M. Larocque est un étudiant de l'Université de Moncton. Le conseil d'administration est composé de cinq étudiants de l'Université de Moncton, un professeur représentant le syndicat, un membre du personnel de la gestion de l'université et deux membres communautaires, donc deux personnes "at large".

1621 COMMISSAIRE DEMERS: Et actuellement tous les membres du conseil d'administration sont actifs dans l'administration de la station?

1622 M. WARD: Oui, ils sont actifs. L'été on a un peu plus de difficultés quand même parce que les étudiants ce sont des gens qui proviennent de différentes régions donc souvent se retrouvent dans leur région pour travailler mais on maintient un lien de communication assez solide.

1623 COMMISSAIRE DEMERS: D'accord. Merci. Alors je vais maintenant me tourner du côté de l'infraction et bien sûr que mes questions pourront ressembler à celles qui ont été posées aux deux personnes qui vous ont précédé ce matin.

1624 Vous avez fait dans votre document, vous avez décrit ce qui est arrivé, les explications que vous avez pu en donner des infractions qui se sont passées à la station et on a pu voir qu'elles sont, évidement, d'ordre humain et en même temps aussi d'ordre technique.

1625 Vous avez aussi décrit les appareils que vous avez mis en place et aussi la situation administrative que vous avez décrite très clairement dans le but que les erreurs humaines, les situations humaines puissent se reproduire.

1626 Comment vous évaluez ça maintenant que c'est en place? Peut-être étiez-vous là hier ou avant-hier et à la station les choses, les règles de mise en place sont exécutées telles que vous nous les avez décrites?

1627 M. WARD: Oui. Comme j'ai mentionné tout à l'heure depuis mon entrée en poste -- je suis en contrat pour trois ans donc les mesures vont se maintenir pour les trois prochaines années. Depuis qu'on a mis le système en place de vérification, donc une signature requise par l'animateur chargé le matin de mettre les trois cassettes dans les magnétoscopes. Par la suite moi je vérifie également que les cassettes sont bien présentes et de qualité ou encore mon directeur général adjoint qui a aussi cette responsabilité.

1628 Également avec toute la question d'avoir programmé de façon automatique, comme on programme pour enregistrer une émission à la télévision, a fait que ça réduit énormément également la responsabilité humaine de peser sur le bouton au moment de l'enregistrement.

1629 Depuis ce temps-là on n'a pas eu de problèmes à maintenir les cassettes et hebdomadairement, une fois par semaine, on sort les cassettes de la semaine et on les écoute question d'une demi-heure, une heure, on avance, on s'assurer que le contenu est bien le bon contenu et que c'est la bonne cassette.

1630 Également les magnétoscopes sont identifiés avec les lettres A, B, C et les cassettes sont identifiées également comme ça 1A, 1B, 1C donc on n'aura pas le problème également. Avant les cassettes magnétoscopes pouvaient une journée être bleu, blanc, rouge dans trois magnétoscopes différents et le lendemain c'était dans les trois autres.

1631 Donc depuis ce temps-là, depuis qu'on est plus systématiques on n'a pas eu de problèmes au niveau de l'enregistrement.

1632 COMMISSAIRE DEMERS: Et la formation du personnel, c'est clair, c'est standardisé?

1633 M. WARD: Oui, au moment que je suis rentré il n'y avait pas un directeur de la programmation et des bénévoles attitrés à la formation. Il n'y avait personne qui occupait ce poste donc ça a été mon premier mandat de mandater quelqu'un uniquement responsable des bénévoles et du personnel à temps partiel pour assumer les formations. Donc toute personne qui entre, nous on passe trois fois avec eux -- donc trois semaines consécutives -- pour la qualité de la mise en ondes mais également s'ils sont responsables des rubans-témoins de la fin de semaine, le samedi et dimanche matin.

1634 COMMISSAIRE DEMERS: Mettons pas l'été, mais durant l'année scolaire, vous auriez combien de bénévoles qui seraient aux alentours de la station?

1635 M. WARD: On a au-delà de 60 à 80 bénévoles qui rodent autour de la station durant la saison universitaire. L'été beaucoup plus réduit, beaucoup plus assumé par des étudiants qui sont sur des projets d'emplois gouvernementaux.

1636 COMMISSAIRE DEMERS: D'accord. Et la responsabilité des rubans-témoins c'est la vôtre ou celle du directeur adjoint?

1637 M. WARD: Oui, et également la personne responsable de l'ouverture de la station, c'est-à-dire que la personne qui ouvre la station le matin est elle responsable de mettre les trois cassettes dans le magnétoscope, d'assurer qu'elles sont rembobinées pour que le magnétoscope les enregistre également.

1638 COMMISSAIRE DEMERS: D'accord. Mais la vérification de tout ça est faite par vous ou votre collègue.

1639 M. WARD: C'est ça.

1640 COMMISSAIRE DEMERS: Bon. Vous êtes au courant, vous avez d'ailleurs mentionné que c'était la deuxième fois, vous avez même référé dans votre document à la dernière décision qui a été rendue par le Conseil sur une autre question que celle de l'enregistrement.

1641 Est-ce que vous êtes en mesure de confirmer ce matin que la programmation de la station est entièrement conforme aux conditions de licence ainsi qu'aux exigences du règlement?

1642 M. WARD: Oui. Aujourd'hui dans le sens que le contenu français de la catégorie 3,

oui et également avec l'auto-évaluation qu'on a reçue au mois de janvier, le cas est également confirmé qu'on est en bonne et due forme au niveau du CRTC et même avec une saison estivale qui est souvent difficile de maintenir des bénévoles, on a procédé beaucoup à balancer la programmation avec des enregistrements pré-enregistré pour s'assurer qu'on répond à tous les critères.

1643 On est encore conformes.

1644 COMMISSAIRE DEMERS: Mais si on prend ma question plus généralement, ce matin ou enfin au meilleur de votre connaissance, la programmation de la station est conforme à la réglementation et aux conditions de licence.

1645 M. WARD: Oui.

1646 COMMISSAIRE DEMERS: Merci. Alors on ce qui a trait à l'émission d'une ordonnance tel qu'indiqué par l'avis d'audition publique, d'audience, désirez-vous soumettre d'autres preuves qui supporteraient le fait que CKUM-FM est actuellement et restera en conformité à ces conditions de licence ainsi qu'aux exigences du règlement?

1647 M. WARD: Je crois que ma présentation résume énormément les mesures qui ont été prises et les mesures qui vont être prises le 1^er septembre. Autre chose que je n'ai pas mis dans l'allocution, on regarde avec l'ARC du Canada pour l'achat d'un bavard électronique, un ordinateur comme je pense qu'on a entendu une personne de Terre-Neuve mentionner.

1648 C'est quand même un coût qui représente au-delà de 4 à 5 000 dollars donc pour une radio comme nous ce n'est pas nécessairement une option qu'on saute dessus immédiatement mais on est en train d'évaluer la situation pour encore s'assurer d'un meilleur système d'enregistrement pour les rubans-témoins mais je crois qu'avec le mandat que j'ai au niveau des Médias acadiens universitaires comme directeur général d'être présent pour les trois prochaines années, avec le système qu'on a mis en place et avec également une personne qui m'appuie comme directeur général adjoint, je crois qu'au niveau de la preuve et au niveau de la preuve que ça ne se répétera pas on a pris toutes les mesures possibles pour une radio qui fonctionne avec très peu de moyens.

1649 COMMISSAIRE DEMERS: Merci. Peut-être une question qui déborde mais étant donné que vous êtes avec nous, vous êtes au courant que le Conseil est en train de réétudier, de réviser, de revoir sa politique quant à la radio de campus?

1650 M. WARD: Oui.

1651 COMMISSAIRE DEMERS: Et vous êtes aussi au courant qu'il y a là possibilité d'augmentation du contenu canadien dans la musique pour les catégories 2 et 3 de 30 à 35 pour cent et de 10 à 12 pour cent?

1652 M. WARD: On n'est pas énormément concernés par ce changement-là car notre contenu canadien lors de notre dernière auto-évaluation se chiffrait autour de 52 pour cent et on maintient une relation importante avec l'industrie musicale canadienne et on notre mandat est toujours de promouvoir la musique du Canada avant tout et on ne changera pas de focus et notre objectif à l'interne est beaucoup plus centré vers le 45 pour cent que la réglementation.

1653 COMMISSAIRE DEMERS: Mais vous êtes au courant du processus d'étude qu'a entrepris le CRTC?

1654 M. WARD: Oui. J'ai eu la chance de parler avec Annie Laflamme sur ce changement de politique.

1655 COMMISSAIRE DEMERS: Merci, messieurs et je n'ai pas d'autres questions. Merci, Monsieur le Président.

1656 LE PRÉSIDENT: Merci. Commissionner Cardozo has some questions.

1657 COMMISSAIRE CARDOZO: Merci, Monsieur le Président. J'ai juste des questions générales. Mon collègue, Monsieur le Conseiller Demers a demandé des questions sur votre expérience. J'ai d'autres questions générales sur le focus de votre station, les genres de musique que vous jouez, les préoccupations des programmations, les priorités et politiques publiques, et cetera.

1658 Comment vous décrivez votre station et votre service?

1659 M. WARD: Notre station en premier lieu est une radio qui veut auprès des jeunes, donc auprès des 12 à 30 ans, faire une certaine éducation de la musique française. On est quand même dans une communauté bilingue mais une communauté qui est majoritairement anglophone donc on essaie de maintenir notre éducation au niveau de la musique populaire parce que les jeunes aiment beaucoup ce genre de musique-là mais on est très diversifiés au niveau de notre programmation.

1660 On a une communauté internationale importante sur notre campus, au-delà de 400 à 450 étudiants internationaux qui nous proviennent de plusieurs pays de l'Afrique et tout et dans la programmation on a tout ce genre de contenu-là également, la musique africaine, la musique internationale française. On diffuse également du contenu qui nous parvient de d'autres pays comme la France avec RFI, avec son programme de programmation internationale mais on se décrit une radio variée, éducative, une radio qui offre la chance aux jeunes de se faire entendre et d'avoir une formation en communication et son contenu musical et programmation est populaire.

1661 Donc on tente de s'assurer que les jeunes -- car on est dans une région où on a quatre radio anglophones privées qui tentent de compétitionner contre nous. Nous on n'essaie plus parce que ce n'est pas notre mandat de compétitionner. Il y a également, une radio communautaire à Shédiac qui diffuse sur notre territoire et également Radio-Canada qui est sur notre territoire. Donc on essaie vraiment de s'assurer que les jeunes ne vont pas nécessairement vers toujours le contenu anglophone et c'est un peu notre mandat de s'assurer qu'on peut les éduquer dans différentes musiques françaises mais en tenant le plus populaire.

1662 COMMISSAIRE CARDOZO: Et pour les programmes, en anglais on dit "spoken word".

1663 M. WARD: Oui, l'art -- vous voulez dire comme la poésie et tout

1664 COMMISSAIRE CARDOZO: Oui, avez-vous des entrevues?

1665 M. WARD: Bien nous on est quand même une radio qui à cause de son corps professoral, les étudiants qui étudient dans différents domaines donc dans les arts, la poésie et tout ça, on couvre la majorité des événements culturels sur le campus, des expositions d'art par les étudiants, des lectures de poésie et des pièces de théâtre. On fait des entrevues avec toutes sortes de personnes autant de la communauté que de la profession musicale.

1666 On est une radio qui depuis 27 ans a sa place dans la région du grand Moncton. On diffuse seulement depuis 13 ans sur une bande FM mais on a quand même été présents dans la communauté depuis 27 ans donc on a tout le temps été accessibles à différents genres d'approches mais on est quand même une université qui ne bénéfice pas d'être une université comme Montréal ou comme Ottawa où on a quand même -- nous on n'a que 3 000 étudiants sur notre campus donc on n'a pas un grand bassin de gens pour faire plusieurs différentes choses tandis qu'une radio campus à Montréal ou à Ottawa a de meilleures chances. Avec 30 à 50 000 étudiants, c'est sûr qu'on peut trouver une diversité beaucoup plus grande mais on est un peu limité dans ce sens-là.

1667 COMMISSAIRE CARDOZO: Et vous jouez le rôle de radio campus et radio communautaire ensemble?

1668 M. WARD: Oui.

1669 COMMISSAIRE CARDOZO: Et ça c'est un défi?

1670 M. WARD: C'est un défi mais on a une bonne relation avec la radio Beauséjour, la radio communautaire de Shédiac où on s'est entendu mutuellement qu'eux s'occupent beaucoup plus des éléments communautaires destinés aux adultes, donc à la communauté en général, famille et tout ça, et nous on se concentre uniquement sur les écoles primaires et secondaires donc on ne tente pas de faire du communautaire, par exemple d'aller faire un souper chez la maison des seniors. Ce n'est pas notre rôle mais on va aller faire un événement spécial à la maison des jeunes de Dieppe car c'est pour eux une occasion de diffuser leur événement.

1671 Donc notre rôle communautaire est beaucoup plus centré vers les jeunes que vers la communauté en général.

1672 COMMISSAIRE CARDOZO: Avez-vous des plans pour le Sommet de la francophonie?

1673 M. WARD: Oui, bien je pense que le CRTC a un dossier entre les mains. On est l'hôte du projet Radio-jeunesse qui est un projet international où il y a 70 jeunes...

1674 COMMISSAIRE CARDOZO: Et la demande est devant nous maintenant?

1675 M. WARD: Oui, elle est devant vous je pense pour la fréquence 91 -- pour la courte durée. Nous on participe du côté technique donc on fournit nos installations, on va aider à encadrer les gens et on va diffuser également le contenu de cette programmation.

1676 COMMISSAIRE CARDOZO: Merci beaucoup.

1677 M. WARD: Merci.

1678 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: These are my questions.

1679 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Our counsel has some questions for you.

1680 M^e McCALLUM: Je confirme pour le dossier que vous avez produit tout à l'heure un rapport financier annuel pour le dossier public.

1681 M. WARD: Oui.

1682 M^e McCALLUM: Et qu'il sera considéré avec votre présentation.

1683 M. WARD: Oui. Je l'ai soumis principalement également pour vous démontrer nos limites budgétaires pour prendre des mesures beaucoup importantes comme faire l'achat d'un ordinateur de 5 000 dollars. Également pour le dossier public du dossier du CRTC au niveau de notre licence.

1684 M^e McCALLUM: Cela reflète l'exercice terminé le 31 août 1998.

1685 M. WARD: Oui.

1686 M^e McCALLUM: Merci. Est-ce que vous avez un appareil de relève en cas de panne, en cas de panne du bavard principal?

1687 M. WARD: Vous voulez dire en cas de bris?

1688 M^e McCALLUM: Oui, en cas de bris ou panne.

1689 M. WARD: On a un magnétoscope qui enregistre les trois autres magnétoscopes dans le sens que la bobine s'efface tout le temps mais on s'assurer d'avoir au moins une cassette qui enregistre soit un des trois magnétoscopes mais on surveille les magnétoscopes au niveau du nettoyage et tout ça et également on sait qu'il faut que l'on recycle les magnétoscopes chaque six mois parce que le bris tente d'arriver vers les six mois parce qu'ils sont continuels mais on n'a pas un système encore -- excusez l'expression anglaise -- en "back up" dans le sens qu'on n'a pas nécessairement les moyens de se procurer trois autres magnétoscopes pour l'instant et c'est pour cela qu'on observe d'autres moyens de s'assurer que le système est bien en marche.

1690 M^e McCALLUM: Est-ce que les magnétoscopes fonctionnent en série, un qui prend place, l'autre qui prend la relève et le troisième...

1691 M. WARD: Oui, c'est trois blocs de six heures donc il y a un magnétoscope qui enregistre de 6 h à midi et le deuxième de midi à 18 h et le troisième de 18 h à 24 h.

1692 M^e McCALLUM: Et vous ne pouvez pas utiliser un des autres magnétoscopes comme appareil de relève?

1693 M. WARD: Oui, ça serait une solution d'enlever la cassette du matin et d'en mettre une autre pour s'assurer de faire le "backup" du deuxième. Oui, c'est une possibilité. On n'a pas pensé à ça mais je crois que ça prendrait quand même l'achat de d'autres cassettes magnétiques pour s'assurer que l'erreur humaine n'arrive pas qu'on efface la cassette principale mais ça serait une solution à envisager.

1694 M^e McCALLUM: Parce qu'avec la situation que vous avez décrite l'année dernière en juin 1998 avec le problème qui s'est produit, la question que nous avons c'est comment peut-on s'assurer que, avenant une situation similaire, les erreurs humaines ne se répéteront pas.

1695 M. WARD: Oui, bien comme je vous dis...

1696 M^e McCALLUM: Et sans système de relève.

1697 M. WARD: Bien je pense que votre solution au niveau du système de relève est une qu'on va étudier mais comme je vous dis c'est la première fois cette année qu'on a même pu envisager d'acheter 200 nouvelles cassettes magnétiques pour remplacer les anciennes, juste pour faire un certain nettoyage parce que ces cassettes-là sont là depuis longtemps. C'est sur et certain que toutes les mesures qu'on prend maintenant c'est parce qu'on peut se les permettre et je pense que la solution que vous me soumettez ce matin c'est quelque chose qu'on peut vérifier avec notre technicien lors de mon retour à Moncton.

1698 M^e McCALLUM: Quand est-ce que vous avez acheté ces nouveaux magnétoscopes?

1699 M. WARD: Les derniers magnétoscopes qu'on a achetés ont été achetés cinq mois passés.

1700 M^e McCALLUM: Cinq mois?

1701 M. WARD: Oui.

1702 M^e McCALLUM: Et l'autre avant ça?

1703 M. WARD: L'autre avant ça c'était six mois avant. On vois qu'à chaque six mois il y en a un qui va nous quitter pour un monde meilleur.

1704 M^e McCALLUM: Et vous dites que vous avez déplacez les appareils d'un bureau fermé à clé au studio de diffusion visible et accessible en tout moment. De quelle manière est-ce que ceci aide avec votre problème?

1705 M. WARD: C'est sur et certain que ce problème-là a été réglé surtout pour les fins de semaine. Les employés qui sont là à temps plein du lundi au vendredi ce n'était pas nécessairement un problème durant la semaine mais lorsque la fin de semaine arrivait et que les bénévoles s'occupaient des magnétoscopes, bon bien si un bénévole ne se montrait pas et un autre le remplaçait, n'avait pas la clé du bureau donc ne pouvait pas changer les cassettes donc c'est une question d'accessibilité et également une question de visibilité. Quelqu'un rentre dans le studio, voit que le magnétoscope de fonctionne pas, bon bien la première réaction c'est d'aller voir pourquoi il ne fonctionne pas tandis que de l'avoir dans un bureau fermé l'erreur humaine peut aussi également ne pas vérifier le magnétoscope.

1706 Avec les deux systèmes combinés, la vérification qui est faite par moi au niveau de la feuille de route et également avec le fait qu'ils sont visibles et qu'une personne peut agir en tout moment, selon moi c'est un meilleur système.

1707 M^e McCALLUM: Mais est-ce que ça ne multiplie pas toutes les possibilités d'une manipulation humaine et par la suite une erreur humaine?

1708 M. WARD: Non parce que les gens ne sont pas responsables-témoins -- et je parle au niveau des bénévoles comme tels. On a des gens qui sont attitrés responsables de soirs, de fins de semaine qui sont en principe des gens qui ont des bourses, des bourses d'études et qui assument ces responsabilités-là donc il y a une petite équipe de gens qui sont uniquement responsables des magnétoscopes et les magnétoscopes ne sont pas nécessairement accessibles dans le sens qu'on peut peser le bouton "stop" facilement. Ils sont quand même dans un endroit où il faut que les gens aillent accès au cabinet.

1709 Deuxièmement il est clair pour les gens -- et c'est affiché -- que les gens ne peuvent pas toucher à ce système de cassettes, donc ne peuvent pas les arrêter, ne peuvent pas les déprogrammer, ne peuvent pas utiliser une cassette dans le magnétoscope pour faire autre chose. Depuis un an on a été très vigilants. On n'a pas eu d'occasion où les cassettes n'ont pas été là ou qu'une erreur humaine a été répétée donc je suis confiant également qu'il faut faire confiance à notre personnel et à nos bénévoles et qu'ils comprennent que depuis que je suis en poste que c'est une situation qui doit être regardée des plus vigilantes dans le sens qu'on ne peut pas jouer avec les rubans-témoins.

1710 M^e McCALLUM: Qu'est-ce qui est couvert dans l'entraînement notamment du personnel mais notamment aussi des bénévoles?

1711 M. WARD: Bien les bénévoles passent à travers une formation qu'on appelle "A à Z" autant par la formation technique, donc comment mettre le produit en ondes, le contenu de leurs émissions. Également on passe à travers -- justement on parle des rubans-témoins, de ne pas toucher aux rubans-témoins mais que si un magnétoscope ne fonctionne pas d'aviser le responsable le soir ou de fins de semaine ou même de me téléphoner à la maison. J'ai eu numéro d'urgence.

1712 Également on a débuté depuis que je suis en poste une explication claire des politiques du CRTC et également de la réglementation de la licence.

1713 M^e McCALLUM: Et ça c'est affiché quelque part?

1714 M. WARD: Oui, il y a un cartable qui est accessible pour tous les bénévoles dans le salon des bénévoles où les bénévoles peuvent se référer à la politique, à notre licence, à la réglementation sur la radio de 1986 et tout mais on passe tout ce temps-là avec ces gens-là pendant trois semaines à s'assurer qu'ils ont une connaissance de tout ça. Également on vérifie par un petit test écrit juste pour vérifier leurs connaissances.

1715 M^e McCALLUM: Et vous avez trois employés à temps plein?

1716 M. WARD: Oui, trois employés à temps plein.

1717 M^e McCALLUM: Et quelles sont leurs fonctions?

1718 M. WARD: J'ai un directeur général adjoint...

1719 M^e McCALLUM: Il y a vous, le directeur général.

1720 M. WARD: Je suis directeur général, donc je m'occupe en principe de tous les aspects de la station. Il y a Jean-Guy Landry qui est directeur général adjoint qui s'occupe de m'appuyer mais également s'occupe de tous les dossiers au niveau du contenu de la programmation, du contenu musical. Il s'occupe également de faire la formation des gens, la production -- on fait beaucoup de choses à différents titres. Également la troisième personne est une personne qui est chargée des ventes, du marketing, des promotions, qui s'occupe de la programmation externe, qui s'occupe également de coordonner les bénévoles de la fin de semaine.

1721 M^e McCALLUM: Est-ce que c'est lui qui serait responsable du système d'enregistrement durant les fins de semaine?

1722 M. WARD: Pas pendant l'année universitaire. Pendant l'année universitaire on a une personne responsable des fins de semaine qui est un boursier et qu'on forme dans tous les sens, donc elle est formée de A à Z et pendant l'été on se donne la relève, les trois employés, d'ouvrir la fin de semaine parce qu'on n'a pas autant de bénévoles l'été donc on est tous responsables une fin de semaine sur trois d'ouvrir la station et de s'occuper que le ruban-témoin soit là. Donc on travaille une fois toutes les trois semaines sept jours par semaine.

1723 M^e McCALLUM: Dans votre lettre du 10 août 1998 vous indiquiez:

1724 Qu'est-ce que vous entendiez par "revenir au système écrit à la main"?

1725 M. WARD: A ma connaissance, à ce moment-là je n'étais pas sûr -- le registre musical était tenu dans un ordinateur donc il était tapé dans l'ordinateur directement, dans le programme Excel -- et à ce moment-là je n'étais pas sûr si c'était une question légale de témoignage vraiment que les bénévoles ont mis cette chanson-là. Donc on a réinstauré les feuilles et que les gens écrivent les pièces musicales à la main et non dans un ordinateur.

1726 M^e McCALLUM: Donc actuellement vous avez un système écrit à la main.

1727 M. WARD: Oui.

1728 M^e McCALLUM: Donc c'est un système humain d'écrire toutes les chansons à la main.

1729 M. WARD: Oui.

1730 M^e McCALLUM: Et vous êtes confiance que ça assure la conformité avec le règlement.

1731 M. WARD: Oui, parce que lorsque je suis rentré en poste j'ai été obligé de repasser à travers beaucoup le contenu de la programmation parce que beaucoup de bénévoles négligeaient de le rentrer dans l'ordinateur. Donc depuis qu'on est retourné au système écrit je n'ai pas vu une feuille musicale qui n'a pas été soumise ou écrite. Donc, encore une fois, je pense que la responsabilité d'être obligés de le faire physiquement, d'écrire, et la formation qu'on offre les a fait comprendre l'importance de faire ces mesures-là.

1732 M^e McCALLUM: Merci. Finalement, une mention a été faite de la nouvelle politique, en effet l'appel d'observations sur la politique où relève la radio de campus et je voulais juste confirmer que si jamais le Conseil adopte ces propositions d'augmenter la musique de catégorie 2, c'est-à-dire le contenu canadien de musique de catégories 2 et 3 de 35 pour cent et de 10 à 12 pour cent, respectivement. Vous êtes au courant que vous devez adhérer à de telles exigences?

1733 M. WARD: Oui, et comme j'ai dit tout à l'heure on n'est pas nécessairement inquiets par ces nouvelles mesures du fait que notre contenu canadien se chiffre autour de 52 pour cent et le contenu canadien de catégorie 3 se chiffre également autour de ce chiffre-là si je me souviens bien dans le document d'évaluation. Donc on n'est pas une radio qui est énormément concernée par son contenu canadien car on en fait déjà énormément.

1734 M^e McCALLUM: Merci. Merci, Monsieur le Président.

1735 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. We will all take our morning break now and come back at 10:50.

--- Recess at / Suspension à 1035

--- Upon resuming at / Reprise à 1054

1736 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Cussons, could you please call the next party?

1737 MR. CUSSONS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

1738 Our next application is by Community Radio Society of Saskatoon to renew the broadcasting licence of the community radio programming undertaking CFCR-FM Saskatoon, Saskatchewan expiring 31 August, 1999, also to amend the condition of licence requiring that the ethnic programming be directed to a minimum of 16 cultural groups in a minimum of 16 different languages -- the licensee intends to reduce its service to 13 groups and languages -- and to adhere to the following condition of licence:

1739 The Commission notes the apparent failure of the licensee to comply with section 8 of the Radio Regulations, 1986 concerning the provision of logger tapes. The Commission notes the apparent failure of the licensee to comply with subsection 2.2(3) of the Radio Regulations, 1986 concerning the broadcasting of Canadian content of category 3 music.

1740 The Commission notes the apparent failure of the licensee to comply with its condition of licence requiring that CFCR-FM air a minimum of 33 per cent of Canadian content for category 2 music. The Commission also notes the apparent failure of the licensee to comply with paragraph 9(3)(b) of the Radio Regulations, 1986 concerning provision of a music list.

1741 The Commission expects the licensee to show cause at this hearing why a mandatory order requiring the licensee to comply with the above-mentioned Regulations and its condition of licence should not be issued. Counsel will have a few comments on the mandatory order.

1742 Counsel?

1743 MR. McCALLUM: Just a few comments about the possible issuance of a mandatory order. You may have been in attendance when I read the information out before, so I will try to be brief.

1744 Under section 12 of the Broadcasting Act, the Commission may hear a matter where it appears that a person has failed to do any act or thing the person is required to do pursuant to any licence or decision of the Commission and issue a mandatory order to ensure compliance with any such licence or decision.

1745 In the case of the Community Radio Society of Saskatoon Inc., CFCR-FM, the Commission has noted that you are in apparent non-compliance with four provisions. So, the discussion today will focus on those four provisions relating to the radio regulations and the conditions of licence of CFCR.

1746 If a mandatory order were issued and CFCR-FM subsequently failed to comply with these four requirements or any one of those four requirements, the Commission would provide evidence of such failure to the Federal Court and, thereafter, a show cause hearing for a contempt of Court would take place before the Federal Court of Canada. CFCR-FM would be entitled to present a defence and, if found guilty of contempt, it would be subject to a fine, as set out by the Court.

1747 As you are aware, CFCR-FM has been called upon to show cause why a mandatory order should not issue regarding the four elements that are in the agenda of today's public hearing. This means that you have the burden of convincing this Panel why the Commission should not issue a mandatory order relating to those four items. I trust this makes the mandatory order procedures clear.

1748 MR. LEE: Yes.

1749 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

1750 Please proceed with your presentation.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

1751 MR. LEE: Thank you.

1752 Good morning, Mr. Chair and Members of the Commission. My name is Jeff Lee. I am a lawyer with the McPherson, Leslie & Tyerman law firm in Saskatoon and I have served on the Board of Directors of the applicant for the past 12 years. Having spent the past six years as President, I am currently Past President.

1753 To my right is Mr. Ryan Lejbak, a member of the Board of Directors of the applicant, a partner in the local digital publishing firm. He has been with CFCR for 11 years. To Mr. Lejbak's right is Theo Kivol, the Program Director of the applicant. Mr. Kivol has been employed at the station for the past 12 years. In our submissions today, we propose to make reference to some video slides and the written reference material is before the Commission.

1754 Our presentation today will touch on four areas. We will overview the background of the station for the Commission, we will address some of the challenges we face as an organization, specifically focus on the four concerns raised by the Commission in the Notice of Hearing, and conclude with some comments on the future of the station.

1755 Briefly, by way of historical background, the station signed on the air in Saskatoon on July 17th, 1989 and, prior to signing on the FM band, cablecast on the local cable provider's licence through an amendment, the local cable provider being Saskatoon Telecable. A number of the station's volunteers have been with the station continuously since the beginning of cablecasting in 1987.

1756 The station is powered primarily by volunteer staff. It relies heavily on community volunteers. Of the on-air programming, approximately 3.5 per cent is done by paid staff. The vast majority is done by community volunteers.

1757 The majority of the hosts who operate as volunteers on the station are mature individuals, adults over 30 years of age. Contrary to the typical perception of a community station as a student station or a university operation, the majority of the host component in the volunteer sector are mature individuals with a long-term commitment to the city of Saskatoon and the Community Radio station.

1758 By way of sort of profile of the demographic component or make-up of the hosts, the majority of them, 51 per cent, are described by us as professionals of some description, teachers, business leaders, doctors, lawyers and the like. About 27 per cent are drawn from the ranks of the local university student population and the balance are comprised of other individuals.

1759 The graphic on the screen indicates the budget of the station. The station currently operates under a budget of slightly below $200,000 per year. There are four full-time employees and the station finds it a challenge to operate with that budget, but has been able to do so for a number of years. Currently, we have a bit of a new re-invigorated management team with a new general manager having been taken on this year. We believe the new management will lead the station to a new level of success in the future.

1760 Community Radio has won many awards, including a 1994 award for broadcast excellence from the National Campus Community Radio Association and we are proud of awards like that. A cornerstone of the station's programming is its multicultural broadcasts. Over the years, CFCR has broadcast 10 years of multicultural programming to a number of different ethnic communities in Saskatoon, all of which are described on your screen.

1761 A number of these programs have been operating on the station continuously for 12 years. At least six of our ethnic programs have been operated by the same volunteer broadcaster now for 12 years. Outside of actual programming, the station also promotes multicultural events in the community. An event known as Ethnorama has been run on a number of occasions, bringing together the broadcasting cultures to celebrate their music, their food and their dance.

1762 In that regard, awards have been presented to the station and grants to enable its multicultural programming. In 1997, we were honoured with an Asia-Pacific Foundation grant to produce programming on peoples from the Asia-Pacific Region and some of our volunteer broadcasters have also been presented with awards, as indicated in the graphic.

1763 Our station operates in a city with populations slightly over 200,000 people. It's a limited market or a limited population base from which we draw, which makes the ethnic programming that we present a challenge. We have broadcast previously as many as 16 ethnic group programs and now propose to carry on with 13.

1764 MR. LEJBAK: CFCR provides ongoing benefits to the arts and culture communities in Saskatoon. This is a result of the in-depth coverage we provide to cultural events, the programs which focus on arts and entertainment, and our determined efforts to have live interviews with notable artists and personalities.

1765 One program, the "Community Events Calendar", runs four times a day during weekdays and this program lists community and arts events. CFCR-FM also reports live and has on-air remote coverage of the Saskatoon Fringe Festival. Here we interview the actors, playwrights and volunteers on location.

1766 Something we are really proud of is for the past five years we have covered the Saskatoon Jazz Festival with our Jazzfest Journal. This program features interviews and artist profiles of musicians performing at the week-long Saskatchewan Jazz Festival. The Jazzfest Journal is heard weekdays from 12:00 o'clock until 1:00 o'clock in the afternoon and 7:00 p.m. to 8:00 p.m. at night and on weekends from 7:00 to 8:00 p.m.

1767 During the Jazz Festival, which is currently on in Saskatoon, 20 hours of devoted time will be programmed towards Jazzfest Journal. Many interviews have already been completed and broadcast and more will be done before the festival is over.

1768 Community Radio also provides informative and sometimes controversial spoken-word programming, examining things like the arts, the entertainment industry, lifestyles, environmental issues, alternative editorial viewpoints, political analysis and other issues which mainstream media often overlooks.

1769 Besides our unique music programs, spoken-word programs and ethnic shows, we have done numerous live and recorded interviews with such notable personalities as Vicki Gabereau, David Suzuki, Victor Maleruk, Wayne Gretzky, John Candy, Cowboy Junkies, Steve Earle, Guy Vanderhaeghe, Liona Boyd, Colin James and many more.

1770 We have had success with local sports coverage as well. It takes a real commitment from our volunteers to achieve this time-consuming project. Nevertheless, we have covered many games of the University of Saskatchewan Huskies' hockey team, the University of Saskatchewan Huskies' football team and the Saskatchewan Storm, a world basketball league team that participated a few years ago. CFCR has also broadcast other sporting events.

1771 In an effort to expand our listenership and community knowledge of the station's programs, CFCR began publishing its own magazine in 1993. Soundscape Magazine, our program guide and music magazine, is distributed monthly to 6,000 readers and will publish its fiftieth issue this week. At the back of the hand-out that you received, you will see a copy of issue number 49.

1772 Who listens to community radio? A quick look at our listenership shows that it reflects our diverse offerings and is comprised of many different audiences ranging from jazz to cultural, to alternative rock, to classical and it shows that they are committed to the station's continued presence. At our annual fund-raising marathon, which we call FM-Phasis, our listeners show their commitment to keeping CFCR healthy by opening their wallets. The graph on the screen shows a fund-raising comparison between CFCR and the average money raised per capita by other stations in their fund-raising campaigns.

1773 CFCR has been what we call the boot camp for many talented individuals who have gone on to successful careers in broadcasting and other media. Here are a few who started their careers by learning the ropes at CFCR. You can see the names on the screen there. In the past month, five of our volunteers have actually left CFCR for paying jobs at Saskatoon's new news/talk radio station.

1774 MR. LEE: We propose to focus today on the specific concerns identified by the CRTC in the Notice of Hearing. They are indicated on the screen. We will deal with logger tape compliance issues, music lists, the issue of Canadian content in categories 2 and 3, and we will comment on the proposed ethnic programming change.

1775 MR. KIVOL: We have addressed concerns about logger tapes by making it easier for hosts to record logger tapes by inspecting the status of recorded tapes and by improving host instructions on the importance and practice of recording logger tapes. We have made technological upgrades, changing from a relatively complicated and antiquated reel-to-reel system to a more user-friendly and up-to-date hi-fi VCR system.

1776 Logger tapes are now visually inspected at least twice daily by myself, the Program Director, to ensure compliance with Regulations. Saturdays and Sundays are slightly problematic as regular staff are not present to monitor volunteers, so we have improved training of weekend volunteer hosts.

1777 We have also improved the practices regarding music lists and the maintenance of the required proportions of Canadian content and more specific categories of music. Music lists are now inspected weekly to ensure they are completed properly. Music lists have also been redesigned to include easy self-auditing and to ensure Canadian content levels are achieved. Warnings about the implications of failing to meet the target levels appear on these sheets.

1778 If you take a look in the hand-out, between the pink and yellow pages you can see an example of our music log sheet. It includes at the bottom a message to the hosts, plus the self-auditing on the left-hand side with a space for the host's signature after they have accurately and legibly completed the sheet.

1779 Signs have also been posted to explain categories 2 and 3 music definitions and also posted to explain Canadian content requirements. We have increased the level of emphasis placed on Canadian content regulations in volunteer manuals and volunteer training sessions. At our annual host workshops, we restate and emphasize the requirements for Canadian content.

1780 We have also refocused the mandate of our long-standing Programming Committee from strictly a quality assessment function to include auditing programs for Canadian content and music list compliance. Once a month a committee member does an audit of one week of that month and reports to the committee on compliance issues.

1781 Other improvements include the addition of labels to CDs to make identification of Canadian content selections easier. Our library database has been changed, which now allows queries to retrieve lists of Canadian content and approximately a year ago we dedicated a section of our library to music by local musicians.

1782 Our goal, of course, is to exceed the required levels for Canadian content and our commitment shows in such programs as the "SOMA Radio" program, which is presented by the Saskatchewan Original Music Association, featuring one hour weekly of all Saskatchewan-based talent playing in prime time Saturdays from 9:00 to 10:00 p.m. featuring mostly category 2 music.

1783 We also have "Canuck Rock", which is one hour of Canadian rock and roll playing in prime time Thursdays 10:00 to 11:00 p.m. featuring category 2 music, and also "Hitch-hikers Guide to the Festivals", one hour of folk music, primarily Canadian, playing prime time Mondays 8:00 to 9:00 p.m. featuring category 2 and category 3 music.

1784 In regard to our commitment to category 3 Canadian selections, "The Swingshift", our popular jazz program, has been running since the station's inception. "The Swingshift" is largely category 3 music and plays weekdays 4:00 to 6:00 p.m. Another popular long-running show is "So Many Roads", two hours of folk, country and blues, also largely category 3, which plays weekdays 10:00 a.m. to noon. These are, obviously, prime time slots.

1785 We have a very successful history of providing on-air access for the many cultures present in our city. It is a big job recruiting and supporting the activities of multicultural hosts. We must admit that ethnic programming is a challenge given Saskatoon's population base of 200,000. The station recently had 16 programs. However, this number fluctuates and we are currently at 13. This does reflect that some shows have increased in length. As a result, total programming air time in this category has remained at nearly the same level.

1786 Another difficulty is finding Canadian content for ethnic programs. For example, there are very few Canadian Arayatrine musicians or Canadian Iranian musicians. We are also excited about a new Jewish program which we will be taking to the airwaves soon.

1787 To emphasize the dynamic and changing nature of our ethnic programming over the years, we have had many programs who have ended their run on the air, but we have also gained a few more, including the aforementioned Jewish program, a Croatian radio program, a Polish program and a Romanian program. Applications for new ethnic programs are encouraged and usually accepted.

1788 MR. LEE: By way of additional submissions or evidence in respect of the compliance issues, we would point out that weekly Canadian content in music list inspections by the Program Director occur when music charts are compiled on a weekly basis. Any areas of problem broadcasting are brought to the attention of the hosts responsible immediately by telephone.

1789 Canadian content, music lists and logger tapes have been found, as a result, to be fully in compliance since 1997, the self-assessment period, based on regular checks by the Program Director and, on an anecdotal level, when we have been required to call upon logger tapes for purposes of quality review or program content review, they have been, without exception, successful for us. So, we are satisfied that substantial progress has been made to address the concerns and we would respectfully submit that a mandatory order ought not to issue.

1790 We would respectfully submit we have brought forward evidence sufficient to discharge the onus to prove that the concerns have been addressed and I would again emphasize four aspects: objective evidence of improved technology and systems since the period in question with respect to each of logger tapes, music lists and Canadian content; a second is improved volunteer training in these areas; a third aspect being a back-up of committee monitoring and auditing in these areas in addition to the staff function; and, finally, enhanced inspection procedures by the staff with respect to both Canadian content, music lists and logger tapes.

1791 Our respectful submission is that a mandatory order ought not to issue for those reasons.

1792 MR. LEJBAK: In the short time we have had to prepare for this presentation, we have received many letters of support from the Saskatoon community. These are from the ethnic and multicultural communities, the arts community and the business community. We have also received support from local politicians, some of whom were unable to provide a letter in time for this trip.

1793 If you look in the booklet we gave you, after the blue sheet there is a few letters of note there. The very first letter that you will see in support of this document is from the Premier, the Honourable Roy Romanow. You will also notice throughout this package there are letters from different ethnic communities. The University of Saskatchewan is also a strong supporter of the station. You will also notice some of the local arts groups, such as the International Fringe Festival, The Mendel Art Gallery and the Saskatoon Jazz Festival, as well as various MLAs, councillors and local businesses.

1794 We acknowledge that these letters of support were not filed in time to be recognized formally as interventions in support of the application. However, we ask that they be received and considered as part of our application package.

1795 I would just like to take a second to talk about where we think the future of the station is going. After a recent five-year planning retreat with the staff and board members, we have identified several organizational targets and have created strategies to achieve them. These are: gaining a higher profile for the station in the community, increasing the power of our transmitter as some areas of the city often have trouble receiving a clear signal, and we would like to attract more listeners to our diverse offerings.

1796 In addition, we are looking at ways to increase funding from grants, corporate donations and advertising, we are currently exploring the possibility of Internet broadcasting or webcasting and, finally -- and Theo will like this one -- improving the salaries and benefits provided to our hard-working employees.

1797 MR. LEE: I would like to thank the Commission for its consideration of our application and we would be pleased to answer any questions you may have for us.

1798 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much for your presentation. Commissioner Cardozo will have some questions for you.

1799 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

1800 Welcome to you. I have, first, a few general questions about your station and then some specific questions about the problem areas. Let me start by getting a better sense of your target audience. In your presentation today, I think you said it is varied. I just want to get a better sense of who it is you think are your most faithful listeners and you mentioned at the end that one of your goals for the future is attracting more listeners. Where do you plan to focus that?

1801 MR. LEE: I think the best description is that there is a host of different constituencies whose needs aren't served by the commercial radio sector and each find something on the station programming schedule. Among the most faithful listeners will be the multicultural groups, whose programming is broadcast weekends from 7:00 a.m. to 7:00 p.m., very loyal supporters of the station.

1802 There are also particular followers of styles of music that are unavailable on local radio that tune in faithfully. Some of the programs were mentioned, the jazz programming and the folk, country and blues programming, and various other arts and cultural groups who broadcast on the station. So, it's a bit of a smorgasbord of different constituencies that are served by the station.

1803 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Is the programming for each one of these target groups relatively the same from week to week and over the season so that people have a sense of when a particular program may be of interest to them?

1804 MR. LEE: Yes, it is. The programming is set up in a block programming format so that once they discover the station and find something there for them, there is a reliable schedule that they know when their offering of interest to them is available.

1805 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: One of the events you mentioned was Ethnorama. Is that an event of your station or is it a city event that you cover?

1806 MR. LEE: The city has its own event. This is our event promoted by the multicultural communities on the station. They call upon their respective ethnic constituencies to assist, but it's a station-sponsored event.

1807 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: What does it include?

1808 MR. LEE: It includes musical and artistic and dance presentations, as well as cuisine.

1809 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So, it is live presentations, is it?

1810 MR. LEE: Yes.

1811 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: There isn't a festival component to it?

1812 MR. LEE: I am not sure what --

1813 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Everything you do is over the air as opposed to an event where people come and attend?

1814 MR. LEE: No. I am not expressing myself well. The Ethnorama is actually an event in a separate location in a public hall where the public is invited to attend and --

1815 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And organized by you?

1816 MR. LEE: Yes.

1817 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Then do you cover the event?

1818 MR. LEE: No, it is not separately broadcast on radio. It is a stand-alone event.

1819 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: You mentioned one of the five issues that you are looking at was the reduction of the number of ethnic languages from 16 to 13. How do you go about picking who those three are?

1820 MR. LEE: The individuals broadcasting come forward and indicate that they are no longer going to be available.

1821 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So, it is them self-selecting them out?

1822 MR. LEE: Yes. It is driven by their availability. There is a limited pool of families in a particular community in a small city like Saskatoon and if one of them moves on, they will identify themselves. Our goal is to exceed the minimum, of course, and we hope we are able to do that.

1823 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So, when you say 13 is the minimum, you may end up doing more --

1824 MR. LEE: We hope we do.

1825 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  -- depending on who comes along?

1826 MR. LEE: We hope we do and we do recruit actively additional communities to broadcast. The Jewish program that Mr. Kivol referenced was recruited by him by going out and actively searching for a host.

1827 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Let me turn to the problem areas, the tougher part of this hearing. As you know, you are appearing before us today for non-compliance with section 8 of the Radio Regulations concerning the provision of logger tapes. Specifically, the Commission renewed the licence of CFCR-FM in 1995 for four years rather than seven due to non-compliance with logger tape requirements.

1828 Monitoring of the station over the current licence term for the week of the 20th to 26th of July, 1997 revealed approximately 15 hours were missing. In view of this repeated non-compliance over the past few years and the assurances made regarding correcting the situation, could you just go over again for us what happened?

1829 You talked in your presentation about what you were going to do to prevent it, but I wonder if you could give us some -- not I wonder, I do need some information on what happened in the first place to cause the problem and then maybe you could review the specific measures that you have taken to correct them for the future.

1830 MR. LEE: With respect to the problem in 1997, the technology in place was the Reevox slow-speed logger tape, which, from time to time, had proved unreliable.

1831 I am going to call upon our Program Director, Theo Kivol, to comment on that development.

1832 MR. KIVOL: We had installed a hi-fi VCR as our logger system and found that that was more reliable and easier for hosts to operate. Since the incident, I visually inspect the tapes twice daily and listen to tapes once a week to make sure that we are in compliance.

1833 I believe the problems from 1997 are due to volunteers not being adequately trained or not realizing that they had to change the tape. Since then, we have restated that all volunteers must make sure that the tapes are always running and make sure they know when they are to switch them. During the week, the staff takes care of switching the tapes during the day. In the evenings, it is up to volunteers once again.

1834 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Just to go back to the problems in July 1997, do you know for sure what the problem was? Did somebody take a look at what exactly went wrong?

1835 MR. KIVOL: Like we mentioned earlier, on the weekends there are sometimes problems due to staff not being present. I believe the missing hours in 1997 were on Saturday and Sunday and we have taken steps to make sure that all weekend hosts know to keep the machine running and know when tapes are to be switched.

1836 MR. LEE: Just supplementary, Mr. Chairman and Members of the Commission, the initiative shortly after the incident in question was to essentially discard the Reevox and simply revamp the entire technology. The Reevox slow-speed logger tape is not -- we do train all new volunteers. It's not a particularly user-friendly system, whereas the new VHS system is something that is quite user-friendly and the hosts have been trained and are able to pop in the tape and press record. That was the immediate action taken shortly after the period in question.

1837 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Just for the record, my information is that for the overall 15 hours, the days we have listed are Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Friday and Saturday. I don't have the breakdown according to the days, so it is perhaps possible that the bulk of it was on the Sunday and the Saturday, but the information I have is that it happened on five different days during the week.

1838 Let me ask you now with regards to the system you have in place who the person is who is responsible for the proper functioning of the logger tape machine you are using now on a daily basis and what the person's duties are. I am not concerned about the name of the person, but the position that person occupies.

1839 MR. LEE: That person is here today. That is the Program Director, Mr. Kivol. He can describe for you his duties, but among them is the twice daily monitoring of the logger tapes and the visual inspection of the complement of logger tapes.

1840 Would you care to elaborate?

1841 MR. KIVOL: Sure. As we have said before, I visually inspect the tapes twice daily and listen to the tapes once a week, checking to ensure that tapes have been recorded properly. Since the installation of the new VCR we re-emphasized with volunteers the importance of logger tapes and I also check the tapes. After the weekend, I always check the tapes because that seems to be when most problems occur. So, after the weekends I always make visual inspections of the tapes and listen to them to make sure they have been recorded.

1842 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Just to be a little more picky, you say you visually check it twice a day. What are you visually looking for?

1843 MR. KIVOL: Our tapes switch usually -- we sign on at 6:00 a.m., so at noon there is a tape change. So, when I change the tape at noon, I check to make sure that all the tape is run through, that it had been started at the proper time, and then again at 6:00 p.m. at the end of the day, I check to make sure that the tape has been running by just visually inspecting to see that it is run through on the videocassette.

1844 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: That will tell you if it is run through. You would have to check it in an audio way to see if it has actually taped, if you remembered to press the record button.

1845 MR. KIVOL: Yes. Once a week I --

1846 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I have done this with my VCR many times, so I know that one can set everything up right and forget one button.

1847 MR. KIVOL: I check the tapes once a week to make sure that there are actual recordings on the tapes just at random. I check a day or two during the week to make sure that recordings are being made. The VCR that we do have is fairly simple. You just have to put the tape in, press record, and it's set up. You don't have to switch the channels or anything. It is set up to --

1848 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: How many hours does it tape for?

1849 MR. KIVOL: Six hours.

1850 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: That is not very much, especially for weekends. How do you manage the weekend periods? Is there somebody like yourself who is going in every six hours during the weekends, too?

1851 MR. KIVOL: During the weekends, the tapes are changed every six hours by the volunteers.

1852 MR. LEE: Further to that, there is an assigned volunteer on duty at that particular time each weekend when the tape change occurs, so it's not having to rely on a different person. There is a regular regimen of who that person will be.

1853 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Have you looked into longer-term taping? We were hearing from another group earlier today who has a 31-day automated cycle, which is sort of like on a hard drive or floppy disk.

1854 MR. LEE: To my knowledge, we haven't explored a longer taping procedure. We did discuss a back-up procedure. Quite candidly, just hearing the submissions today and hearing the other options available, in that regard, we do have a second VCR record machine available to us. To some extent, this is self-serving presenting it today, but we have checked and it's available and a back-up system of running the second VHS at a staggered series of hours is going to go back with us as a recommendation.

1855 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: That was going to be my next question about the back-up system. So, at this point you don't have a back-up?

1856 MR. LEE: No. At this point, our primary efforts were designed to put in place a reliable first line of recording and a back-up is not in place.

1857 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So, you really have to have your fingers crossed.

1858 MR. LEE: We do more than cross our fingers. We periodically monitor and inspect and audit to make sure we are hitting the mark that we are required to hit. But, as I say, based on --

1859 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: When you say you will take it back as a recommendation, for the purpose of this hearing I need to know what the response of that recommendation is. Can you have a meeting like in the next 30 seconds and tell me whether that recommendation is accepted? Is that something you can commit to today?

1860 MR. LEJBAK: As a member of the Board of Directors, I will guarantee you that the system will be implemented as soon as we get back and have the appropriate --

1861 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: With the back-up.

1862 MR. LEJBAK: With the back-up. I should say it will probably take up to two weeks to acquire the tapes that we would need and to run the cabling. The second VCR is currently in the production studio, so we would have to run the cabling. The production studio is used as a back-up studio in the event that the main studio is not functioning properly. So, we will have to run the cabling from the main studio to the production studio. I don't know what a time frame for that would be. Within a few weeks.

1863 MR. LEE: We did have an opportunity this morning by way of telephone to consult with the General Manager in Saskatoon on the feasibility of that and we are assured it is available and is doable. That is our commitment.

1864 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: With regard to the host meetings, you have indicated that you have conducted mandatory host meetings to ensure all volunteer broadcasters are familiar with the logger tape system. How often are these meetings held and how do you make sure that all your volunteers are captured through the system?

1865 MR. KIVOL: We have host workshops once a year to update everybody on any station-related matters and then also to re-emphasize the importance of filling out music lists and changing logger tapes and anything else to do with broadcasting. To ensure that all volunteers attend these meetings, we usually hold them over two or three nights to accommodate everyone's schedule and then make a list of everybody that has attended. Then if somebody gets missed, we make sure to meet with them on a one-to-one basis to ensure that they know what their duties are.

1866 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Who are your volunteers, by and large? Are they college or university students?

1867 MR. KIVOL: We actually did a survey of our volunteers and we found that just over 50 per cent of them are actually professionals, doctors, lawyers, engineers. About 30 per cent are students and then the others are non-professionals.

1868 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: They are the people who are the members of your station as well. Is that so?

1869 MR. KIVOL: Yes.

1870 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So, you don't necessarily lose a whole bunch every spring as the students finish the school year?

1871 MR. KIVOL: We lose a certain number due to people moving on, schedules changing, but we do have quite a number of long-term volunteers.

1872 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Let me turn to the issue of the music log. You have also noted that as of April of 1995 CFCR-FM has reformatted its music log, which is the one, I take it, you have pointed out in your presentation today in order to contain all the information required by the Regulations. In addressing the alleged non-compliance with section 9(3)(b) of the Regulations, you stated that, and I quote:

1873 You further stated that:

And I think you said today legibly as well.

1874 What I wanted to know was the position of the person who does this checking on a regular basis.

1875 MR. KIVOL: That would be me, the Program Director.

1876 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: With regard to category 3 music, you have indicated that the program called "First Nations Voice", CFCR-FM's aboriginal program, is now two hours long, which will increase the Canadian content level of category 3 music. Do you have any other measures in place that would ensure compliance with this section of the Regulations?

1877 MR. KIVOL: Actually, we have a better understanding of the difference between category 2 and category 3 music. As we stated before, "So Many Roads", our folk, country and blues program, and "The Swingshift", our jazz program, a lot of the selections played on those shows are actually category 3. So, I think our levels are higher based on a better understanding of the difference between category 2 and category 3 music.

1878 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So, you don't think the problem is that you have to increase the amount of music, it's just a matter of how you have been categorizing it?

1879 MR. KIVOL: I think so.

1880 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So, what is your recommendation to us as to how we verify that? Do we see how that plays out in time?

1881 MR. KIVOL: We have also re-emphasized to the hosts the importance and explained to them the definitions of category 2 and category 3 music. So, we hope that with that we will achieve those levels.

1882 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: With regard to the ethnic programming, you mentioned in your presentation that you have had some degree of difficulty in accessing Canadian-made music in different languages. One of the things you might look at is FACTOR's MusicAction. FACTOR is based in Toronto and, essentially, it's a system where a commercial radio and government puts in a lot of money to help new and budding artists and they are certainly focusing on having more diversity in the kinds of artists that they promote. It's useful for them to know what you are looking for, I think.

1883 I don't know if they have done Arayatrine music, but they have certainly done a number of Canadian artists in various languages from various cultures. I would see that with the kind of role they are playing in, I guess, the larger number of communities and the majority that there is a growing amount of that music there. I just mention that as a suggestion to you.

1884 On the matter of category 2, you have indicated that you have informed all volunteer hosts of the condition of licence pertaining to category 2 music and have posted signs in your studios as a reminder. Have you any other measures in place to ensure compliance with this matter, which is a really a condition of licence?

1885 MR. KIVOL: We developed a new labelling system in our library so that Cancon selections are easier to identify. All Canadian music that comes into the station is labelled with a red sticker on the spine. We also have a hard copy in our studio of the 300 most recent recordings received by the station and it indicates on the hard copy which selections are Canadian.

1886 I myself personally take every opportunity I have to recommend new Canadian selections as they come in to our on-air hosts, recommending CDs for them to play. Then also the Programming Committee serves as a monitor for hosts. We look at the program sheets and watch the shows and if some shows are not meeting the levels, we notify those hosts that they have to play more Canadian music.

1887 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: What is the response from them? Are they able to accommodate that?

1888 MR. KIVOL: Yes.

1889 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: They don't have a choice, do they?

1890 MR. KIVOL: They don't have a choice, exactly.

1891 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: But do they comply?

1892 MR. KIVOL: Yes.

1893 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I have a couple of closing questions in this whole area. Since 1994, your station has repeatedly been in non-compliance with Radio Regulations, 1986 regarding the provision of complete and intelligible logger tapes and complete music lists. In addition, during the current licence term you have been found to be in non-compliance concerning the broadcast of Canadian content category 2 and category 3 music. Can you assure the Commission that at this moment the station's programming entirely complies with the Regulations and its conditions of licence?

1894 MR. KIVOL: Yes, I can.

1895 MR. LEE: That is again buttressed by the weekly checks the Program Director does with respect to Canadian content. This is by way of repetition, but on a weekly basis the music lists are checked and in the course of compiling music charts the Canadian content is checked. As we have already mentioned, on a daily basis logger tapes are checked twice per day.

1896 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Feel free to repeat, by the way, because it is important that we have clear answers. I should have explained this at the beginning. In addition to what you have filed and said today, the purpose of today is to get as much information as possible.

1897 As counsel mentioned earlier, you are basically here to convince us that we should not be issuing a mandatory order and we want to give you that full opportunity. If you want to say it five times to get your message across, feel free to do that because we will go away over the next few weeks and look at everything that we have talked about and make a decision on that. So, don't feel bad about repeating.

1898 With respect to the possible issue of a mandatory order, as outlined in the Public Notice and as outlined by counsel, do you wish to provide any further evidence or information or thoughts to indicate that the station CFCR-FM is now and will remain in compliance with the Regulations and the conditions of licence?

1899 MR. LEE: I don't think we do, Mr. Chair and Members of the Commission. The evidence we reply upon we have covered.

1900 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay, thank you. That covers my questions.

1901 MR. LEE: Thank you.

1902 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

1903 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Demers, I think, has a question for you.

1904 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: I have a couple of questions, very simply. On your programming -- and maybe it is addressed to the Program Director -- is there any problems with the supply of music to your station?

1905 MR. KIVOL: No. We subscribe to several trade publications and through that we receive lots of music, roughly about 100 CDs a week, I would say. Unfortunately, a lot of it tends to be pop music or category 2 music. Not very much of it tends to fall into the category 3 category.

1906 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Do you consider that your station is offering in music something quite different than the other stations in the area? Are you avant-garde? What would you consider yourself?

1907 MR. KIVOL: Yes, I would say that we offer music that you wouldn't hear on any other stations in our area, sure.

1908 MR. LEJBAK: In the Saskatoon market, there is two other FM radio stations that both play, I guess, hit music. One focuses a little bit more on country hits and one on current hits. There is also CBC Radio 2 on the FM band and CFCR-FM. On the AM band, we have a news/talk radio station which just went on the air a few months ago and CBC Radio 1 and also a local country station. I guess there is one more on the FM band because CKOM just moved to the FM.

1909 There is also an adult greatest hits of the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s. With the exception of CBC Radio 2, which does play classical music throughout its program day, the opportunity to hear multicultural programming, jazz, blues, alternative rock and specialty music programming, CFCR is the only station that provides that service.

1910 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Thank you.

1911 As my colleague Mr. Cardozo was questioning you, I was leafing through the document that you provided us. There is one letter signed by Mr. Drummond Sands, who identifies himself as an advertiser, a listener and a supporter of your station. He indicates that:

1912 Do you know what he is referring to?

1913 MR. KIVOL: By "house and trance", I believe he is referring to underground dance music. I don't understand all the sub-genres myself, but I think that is what he is referring to.

1914 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Thank you.

1915 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

1916 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

1917 Our counsel, Mr. McCallum, has some questions for you.

1918 MR. McCALLUM: Thank you.

1919 Just dealing with a couple of points, first of all, you probably know that the Commission has launched a proposed policy for community radio, Public Notice 1999-75.

1920 MR. LEE: Yes, we are aware of that.

1921 MR. McCALLUM: You are aware of that, yes.

1922 In the proposal, the Commission has stated that it intends to eliminate the promise of performance in the future, but what I wanted to clarify with you is that you understand that until such time as the community radio policy is actually adopted and any regulatory changes are done as a result, CFCR-FM would have to comply with all its conditions of licence.

1923 MR. LEE: Yes, we categorically understand that.

1924 MR. McCALLUM: Particularly the promise of performance. They have to comply with each section in the promise of performance and even Appendix A, which is a part of the promise as well. You understand all that?

1925 MR. LEE: Yes.

1926 MR. McCALLUM: Obviously, once the policy comes into effect, whatever it may be, they will have to respect specific programming commitments set out in the final policy. You understand that as well?

1927 MR. LEE: Yes, sir.

1928 MR. McCALLUM: Also, the proposal for the minimum levels of Canadian content in category 2 and category 3 is to increase them from 30 to 35 per cent from 10 to 12 per cent, respectively. You are aware of that as well?

1929 MR. LEE: Yes, we are aware of that.

1930 MR. McCALLUM: Can you make an assurance that you would be able to comply with those increased levels if those should come into effect?

1931 MR. LEE: I think we can based on the procedures we have discussed. It's not sort of a C change in the levels required. Our target at the moment for category 2 is in the area of 33 per cent, so we think we are close and we can step up the mark to 35 per cent.

1932 MR. McCALLUM: So, making use of those measures that you have put into place, you think those measures are adequate to ensure compliance with those future levels?

1933 MR. LEE: Yes, we do.

1934 MR. McCALLUM: Dealing with those four measures that you concluded your presentation with, I just wanted to take one second to go through them. You have suggested that a mandatory order should not be issued for four reasons. One was evidence of improved systems. When was the VCR equipment installed?

1935 MR. LEE: The VCR equipment was installed in late 1997. I don't have the exact date, but it was subsequent to the monitoring assessment being noted.

1936 Can we help with the exact date?

1937 MR. KIVOL: I would say it was approximately a month after the 1997 assessment.

1938 MR. McCALLUM: When you refer to the evidence of improved systems, in effect, you are asking that those improved systems in all four areas be considered, not only logger tapes but also the Canadian content, et cetera?

1939 MR. LEE: Correct.

1940 MR. McCALLUM: You are referring to the measures that you talked about later in your presentation?

1941 MR. LEE: That's right.

1942 MR. McCALLUM: Improved volunteer training. Is it your evidence that volunteer training covers all the areas of non-compliance under discussion today?

1943 MR. LEE: Yes, it is. The volunteer manual in written form and the volunteer workshops in verbal form and in actual demonstrative form address each of those aspects and many more. Music lists certainly are covered. All of the station's operating technologies, including the logger system, is covered and Canadian content and the categorization is covered in both the written and verbal training sessions.

1944 MR. McCALLUM: When was the manual issued?

1945 MR. LEE: The manual has been in existence for a number of years, well prior to the problems developing in the early 1990s. It's updated periodically to reflect on a dynamic process.

1946 MR. McCALLUM: In what way, then, is the volunteer training improved or enhanced as a result of these non-compliances that have been noted?

1947 MR. LEE: It has been enhanced by a specific series of workshops done in March of 1998 to address these specific areas and it has also been enhanced by the annual host workshop containing an increased emphasis on these areas because of their importance to the station's continued operation.

1948 MR. McCALLUM: And that workshop, you say, is an annual event?

1949 MR. LEE: Yes. I believe it's in September.

1950 MR. McCALLUM: Between the annual workshops, are there any other training sessions?

1951 MR. LEE: Any new host who would come forward is thoroughly trained. First of all, they are screened and reviewed, but each and every new host is thoroughly trained and supervised. They sit in with a mentor before going on the air and are thoroughly trained by the staff. In addition, each host receives the annual upgrade at the host workshops.

1952 MR. McCALLUM: Do they receive a manual or do they have to sign anything to show that they have acknowledged receipt of these instructions or anything?

1953 MR. LEE: I don't believe so. We had, at one point, considered sort of a host contract arrangement, but had decided that was maybe not going to add that much.

1954 MR. McCALLUM: The third thing you mentioned was the back-up of the committee auditing compliance, particularly with respect to the music lists. I take it if the auditing finds a problem with respect to Canadian content or category 3 music, steps would be implemented?

1955 MR. LEE: Correct.

1956 MR. McCALLUM: There is no back-up of committee auditing regarding logger tapes, as such, though, I take it.

1957 MR. LEE: I don't believe the committee addresses itself to logger tapes. The Program Director does that.

1958 MR. McCALLUM: That's the Programming Director's responsibility?

1959 MR. LEE: Correct. The committee backs up the Program Director with respect to music lists and Canadian content.

1960 MR. McCALLUM: The last one was enhanced inspection procedures by staff. Does that relate to all four areas of non-compliance as well?

1961 MR. LEE: Yes, it does.

1962 MR. McCALLUM: How does that relate to, let's say, categories 2 and 3 music?

1963 MR. LEE: Through the weekly reviews of the music logs for all compliance issues by the Program Director for Canadian content and for the integrity of the music list itself. On a weekly basis the Program Director conducts that review and if areas are identified, they are raised directly with the host responsible and compliance is required as a condition of continued broadcasting.

1964 MR. McCALLUM: Thank you.

1965 Earlier in your presentation today I think you said that you have now gone to 13 cultural groups in 13 different languages. Is that correct?

1966 MR. LEE: I believe that's correct, although I think with the Jewish program, that will take us to 14.

1967 MR. McCALLUM: When did you change from 16 groups to 13 groups?

1968 MR. LEE: Can you help us out there?

1969 MR. KIVOL: I believe we lost our French program last September and I believe we also lost our Greek program about a year ago. I am trying to remember the third program that we lost, but I don't recall what it was.

1970 MR. LEE: In terms of sort of measures to address that, the short-term measure is to simply repeat recorded programs of the same host, but that is sort of not a long-term solution. The long-term solution is to go out and recruit new programs to come on-board and fill the required component. That's a difficult process, but one we realize we have to respect.

1971 MR. McCALLUM: But you are aware it's a condition of licence that you direct programming to a minimum of 16 cultural groups in a minimum of 16 different languages?

1972 MR. LEE: Yes, sir.

1973 MR. McCALLUM: And you have applied to amend that to 13 cultural in 13 different languages. Correct?

1974 MR. LEE: That's correct, sir.

1975 MR. McCALLUM: I think the Commission has a general policy that it frequently applies to deny amendments when the licensee is in non-compliance with that very condition. How would you address that policy?

1976 MR. LEE: To be candid, I am not aware of the policy. I would ask for consideration of the circumstances with a station like this. I think the condition of licence is there and it is respected and there are measures in place. We appreciate the significance of it. If we lose a program on a volunteer basis with a limited budget, our only options are to repeat programs and recruit new programs. We would ask the Commission to consider those circumstances.

1977 MR. McCALLUM: If the Commission denies the amendment requested, are you able to comply with the existing condition?

1978 MR. LEE: We could by simply repeating programs. We would have no choice but to do that.

1979 MR. McCALLUM: I am sorry, how does that bring it into compliance? If you have a program in Greek, for example, and you repeat it twice in Greek, how does that increase the number of ethnic groups in different languages?

1980 MR. LEE: I am sorry, I am not expressing myself. I have in mind rebroadcasting programs previously recorded by hosts of departing programs. For example, if the French Canadian program host were to indicate that he is no longer available to do the program, our option would simply be to replay -- in place of a live program, we would play the tapes of the French program that we have as back-ups.

1981 MR. McCALLUM: So, that logger is not erased?

1982 MR. LEE: No. These are separately recorded. These ones are pulled from the logger. We have a policy of having separately-recorded back-up tapes for use in the event of emergencies or contingencies if the volunteer is not there. We have an inventory in that regard. We can, for a limited duration, replay those to satisfy the requirement to broadcast in that language.

1983 MR. McCALLUM: Do you have any comments on whether the Commission could, if it decided to issue a mandatory order, include in the mandatory order a directive that you comply with that condition of licence?

1984 MR. LEE: From a legal perspective, sir, or a factual perspective?

1985 MR. McCALLUM: From whatever perspective you like. I am asking for your comments on whether or not the Commission, if it wished to -- I am not saying it will, but if it wished to. Can it or should it and, if not, why not, include that condition of licence within a mandatory order? I am asking for your views.

1986 MR. LEE: Our respectful views are that this is a difficult area for our community station and we think we have a high level of commitment to that sector of programming. We would like to continue to work to achieve the objectives in the area. We ask that the Commission consider our bona fides and sincerity in presenting those programs. We would submit it's not appropriate to include that in a mandatory order.

1987 MR. McCALLUM: Thank you.

1988 Thank you, Mr. Chair.

1989 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr. McCallum.

1990 Thank you for appearing in front of us today.

1991 Mr. Secretary, could we call the next party, please?

1992 MR. CUSSONS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

1993 We will now hear an application by Wired World Inc. to renew their broadcasting licence to the radio programming undertaking CKWR-FM Kitchener, Ontario expiring 31 August, 1999; and to amend the broadcasting licence as follows:

1994 By increasing the maximum percentage of the station's total music programming from subcategory 21 (Pop, Rock and Dance) from 48 per cent to 65 per cent;

1995 By decreasing the minimum percentage of category 3 music (Traditional and Special Interest) from 40 per cent to 20 per cent;

1996 By increasing the minimum level of Canadian selections broadcast within content category 2 from 30 per cent to 35 per cent;

1997 By increasing the minimum level of Canadian selections broadcast within ethnic program periods from 7 per cent to 10 per cent;

1998 By decreasing the minimum hours of its weekly broadcast time to be devoted to ethnic programs of types A and B from 32 hours 30 minutes to 29 hours 30 minutes; and

1999 By decreasing the minimum amount of ethno-cultural groups from 12 to 8 and the minimum number of different languages from 11 to 6.

2000 The Commission notes the apparent failure of the licensee to comply with its condition of licence limiting the broadcasting of hits to less than 50 per cent of all musical selections. The station aired 18.8 per cent hit material, while its condition limits the use of hits to no more than 15 per cent of all selections over the broadcast week.

2001 The Commission notes the failure of the licensee during the two previous terms of licence to comply with the Regulations requiring the provision of logger tapes. Therefore, the Commission expects the licensee to show cause at this hearing why a mandatory order requiring the licensee to comply with its condition of licence regarding the broadcasting of hits should not be issued.

2002 Again I will ask Mr. McCallum to address the mandatory order aspect.

2003 MR. McCALLUM: Thank you.

2004 I believe you also have been in the room when I have given a little explanation.

2005 MR. GUBLER: Yes, we were.

2006 MR. McCALLUM: In the case of Wired World CKWR, one of the questions under consideration by the Panel today is the possible issuance of a mandatory order requiring compliance with CKWR-FM's condition of licence regarding the broadcasting of hits.

2007 If a mandatory order were issued and CKWR-FM subsequently failed to comply with this requirement, the Commission would provide evidence of such failure to the Court and, thereafter, a show cause hearing for contempt of court would take place before the Federal Court of Canada. CKWR-FM would be entitled to present a defence and, if found guilty of contempt of court, would be subject to a fine, as set by the Court.

2008 As you are aware, CKWR-FM has been called to show cause why a mandatory order should not issue in this case. This means that you have the burden of convincing the Panel that the Commission should not issue a mandatory order.

2009 Thank you.

2010 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

2011 Please proceed with your presentation.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

2012 MR. GUBLER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

2013 If it pleases the Board, my name is Adolph Gubler. I am the Treasurer of Wired World Inc., the licensee of 98.5 FM CKWR. I have with me Mr. Scott Jensen, who is the Vice-President responsible for programming and technical operations.

2014 Both of us were re-elected for a two-year term on the Board of Directors of Wired World Inc. at the annual meeting of members in April of this year. In my professional life, I am a lawyer and Mr. Jensen is Technical Director of the telephone systems at Wilfred Laurier University.

2015 It is our intention to address the show cause proceedings in a two-part segment. Then if the Commission wishes to hear with respect to the application to amend the licence, Mr. Jensen will address that.

2016 I will give you an update of our station since 1997 and our submission as to disposition. Mr. Jensen intends to address our failure to comply and the remedial steps we have taken to correct these problems.

2017 Since 1997, the station has increased paid staff to five full-time and four part-time employees who look after promotions, production, traffic, programming, news, public affairs and training of volunteer programmers. We currently have two students with us on a summer grant. They are helping in the area of news, public affairs, promotions and on-the-spot live cruiser reports. We are also looking at a job-creation partnership grant for additional full-time help in the fall.

2018 We have a number of people who volunteer frequently and they have certain responsibilities. Our music director is a volunteer who spends three mornings per week at the station looking after our daytime format and assisting the volunteer programmers, helping them to find music for their programs. We have two other volunteers who work a number of hours during the week performing clerical functions, answering phones and assisting the program director with checking the music logs.

2019 The broadcast equipment has been continually upgraded since 1997. At our previous hearing -- that was in March of 1997, sir -- we informed the Commission that we were going to acquire a digital logging system. This was in fact done and, as requested by the Commission at that time, we informed the Commission thereof in writing and subsequently received our licence renewal. This new logging system has been operating ever since. We are still running an analog logger system, as well as a back-up to the digital system.

2020 In 1997, we applied for a power increase and a change in frequency. The power increase was completed in October of 1997 with a move from 98.7 to 98.5 FM. We moved our transmitter location to the CBC tower outside of the city of Waterloo to a little town called St. Agatha.

2021 We installed a new four-bay antenna and improved our transmission facilities by adding a stand-by transmitter. We added a new Gentner PC-based remote control system, which allows us to switch to our stand-by transmitter in a matter of seconds as soon as a problem is detected, reducing our down-time significantly. We also installed a new Orban Digital Audio Processing System to clean up our sound at the transmitter site.

2022 In the early part of 1998, a brand new on-air studio was constructed and a new console and studio furniture were purchased, installed and activated. In late 1998, the station installed Mediatouch, a computer automation system, to give us better control over scheduling of announcements, promos and to use as a tool for our daytime programmers.

2023 With the addition of Mediatouch, we also added a full Novell computer system -- that is a local network -- to allow us better control of our operating and computing needs. We have added a number of workstations for staff and volunteers in order that they can share information.

2024 In addition, we purchased a Smart UPS System, which allows us to monitor power to the server, as well as our digital logging systems remotely. In February of this year, we installed a fully-digital production studio, complete with a Pentium workstation outfitted with Digital Audio Editing software and full Internet capabilities for accessing features and news information. These upgrades have cost in excess of $100,000 and were carried out to improve our broadcast capabilities significantly and to provide the best possible tools for our volunteers and paid staff.

2025 MR. JENSEN: Thank you very much.

2026 I have been a volunteer at CKWR for about 20 years and have been on the Board of Directors a number of times over that 20-year period. I have worked in commercial radio in the Waterloo region. I am an electronic engineering technologist, a graduate from Connestoga College. I also took the broadcasting program at Connestoga College a number of years ago and, as Adolph mentioned, I am currently the Vice-President of the Board and responsible for the programming and the engineering on the station.

2027 CKWR-FM, as Canada's first licensed community radio station, has a very unique format. We are programming to a demographic in our area that no other radio station, either commercial or campus, is catering to in our area. We talk to our listeners, we know how much our listeners cherish our programming and how protective they are of our station. The community support for this station over the last number of years has been overwhelming. We have received numerous phone calls and letters of support from listeners, as well as community organizations. Some of the latest letters we have received are attached to our presentation under tab 7.

2028 The support on our two most recent fund-raising drives also gives us a clear indication that our listeners enjoy what we are doing. We raised close to $100,000 in the past two fund-raising drives. It is better than we have ever done in the history of the station. Our listeners feel that we are doing great things in our community in the Waterloo region. As we enter our twenty-sixth year of community broadcasting at CKWR Community Radio, we intend to live up to the expectations of the listeners. We have always tried to comply with the Regulations under the Broadcast Act and our Promise of Performance.

2029 Our reason for failure? We made a mistake. Your analysis was correct and we were in non-compliance. The cause was simple human error. It was not intentional or deliberate, it was not egregious or flagrant, it was a slight violation, a mere 3.8 per cent, but a violation nonetheless.

2030 How did it come about? There was some misunderstanding on our part as to what publications we needed to use in order to determine hits. Many of the hits that we did not count as hits were Canadian country music selections. We had a copy of the Maple Music Book, but not of the Country Canada Book and, consequently, these selections were not accounted for as hits. We were not aware of the Country Canada Book until it was pointed out to us in your letter of March 30th, 1999.

2031 The other point of confusion was in regard to the cut-off date for hits. Was it the year 1956, as we thought, or was it 1955 or 1954? Clarification on this matter was also delivered to us in your letter of March 30th, 1999, in which it was stated that the year is 1955.

2032 Our internal review indicates that our hit problem was the result of two or three programs, our "Country Music Program", which was almost entirely hits, and our Friday night "Oldies Show" and our "Music Man" program. In the week of the survey, the "Music Man" aired a special program dedicated to Billy Vaughn, who had a string of hits in the 1960s. Almost every other week of the year the "Music Man" show would play fewer than five per cent hits. However, in this particular week the hits were almost 60 per cent for this show.

2033 We have taken a number of remedial steps to correct the problem since the assessment. As of today, we can tell you that we are absolutely certain that we are operating the station in compliance. We have done a self-assessment report and if I can refer you to tab number 5 for just a moment, you will see this is our internal self-assessment report that we are performing on a bi-weekly basis at the station.

2034 This one was done the week of June 18th to the 24th prior to coming here. During that week, we aired 13.8 per cent hits, Canadian content for the week of category 2 was 32.5 per cent, Canadian content category 3 for the week was 19.9 per cent, and our spoken-word programming for the week came in at 29.3 per cent. So, this is the report that we are doing now on a bi-weekly basis of all of our programming.

2035 Everyone at the station has worked very hard to bring the station into compliance. The Board of Directors, the paid staff and the volunteers have promised to work diligently to ensure compliance and to maintain it.

2036 In February of this year, after receiving the letter of January 29th, 1999 informing us that we were in non-compliance with hits, a mandatory training session was held with all programmers to discuss a number of CRTC issues, including hits, what defines a hit, Canadian content, how to define Canadian content and other items. A copy of this training program is enclosed under tab 6 to show you what was discussed.

2037 We held two sessions with the programmers. They had to attend one of the two sessions. If they did not attend, they needed to show cause to our Board of Directors why their programming privileges should not be suspended. The importance of compliance with CRTC regulations was stressed to all of those in attendance.

2038 It was a very good session with the volunteers and led to many questions being asked. As you know, in the case of volunteers, they don't always have a lot of information, so it was a stimulating discussion. We intend to have more of these sessions in the future. In addition, we have an ongoing training program for new volunteers.

2039 Immediately after receiving the Commission's letter dated March 30th, 1999, we purchased a copy of Ted Kennedy's Country Canada Book in order to track Canadian country music selections. We also purchased a copy of Billboard's Top 40 Country Hits from 1940 to 1996. We had the Joel Whitburn Top 40 book and the Maple Book in our possession.

2040 We also inquired about purchasing a copy of the new software program from Ted Kennedy and Canadian Chart Research in order to keep up to date on what reaches hit status since most of our textbooks only go to 1996. This program will not be available until the fall of this year. The Board of Directors has already approved its acquisition.

2041 We have readjusted our music clocks for our daytime format separating our hits and non-hits. Before we had less than 15 per cent hits in some hours and more than 50 per cent in others before the separation was completed. New music categories were added for non-hits. Two new categories we play during the day, "Hit Parade", consisting of music from 1940 to 1954 and jazz and adult "Standards from 1940 to 1954" were added. In our daytime music clocks, we have now more non-hit than hit categories.

2042 The format clocks in the computer were readjusted to reflect these new categories and the maximum percentage of hits were set out at the level that when combined with evening and weekend programming, which in our evening and weekends plays predominantly no hits, would come in below the 15 per cent hit restriction.

2043 The Board of Directors has also adopted a "no tolerance policy" in dealing with volunteer programmers. They are aware of the CRTC Regulations now. Everyone was given his or her own copy of the training document and there are no excuses for not following the rules regarding hits, Canadian content, spoken word.

2044 The programming team is now doing bi-weekly self-assessment reports like the one that I brought to your attention under tab 5 of our presentation. These will allow us to detect at an early date any problems that might occur with regards to compliance and will also allow us to deal with them immediately.

2045 CKWR will also take a proactive approach in the future. If we have any problems with logger tapes or other items of compliance relating to the Regulations or the Promise of Performance that are beyond our control, such as power outages, lightening damage or mechanical breakdowns, we will notify the Secretary-General of the CRTC with the details as soon as possible after the non-compliance occurs.

2046 We have put as many checks and balances into place as we can think of in order to maintain compliance. We respect the provisions of the Broadcast Act and the Regulations passed thereunder and we are trying to live up to the letter of the law and the spirit of the Act and its Regulations.

2047 I will turn it back over to Adolph.

2048 MR. GUBLER: Thank you.

2049 At this hearing we can honestly tell you that it's Mr. Jensen and I on behalf of the Board of Directors and the programmers at our station that we are operating this radio station in compliance. We tell you this in confidence. We are reasonably certain that if you monitored us today, you would find that we are in compliance, but there is this little problem of non-compliance for the third time in our 26-year history. On two occasions it was the failure to provide logger tapes and this time the failure consists of a higher hit ratio.

2050 It is our submission that each and every one of these failures was attributable to inadvertent human error, never deliberate, never intentional, and the first two violations occurred when the station was operated primarily by volunteers before we acquired a sizeable paid staff and modern up-to-date equipment, and that all since 1995.

2051 The question before this Commission is, we submit: Was our past conduct, our past failure to comply of such flagrant or egregious nature as to warrant a mandatory order? As a corollary thereto, we submit, is the question: Was the last failure to comply so serious as to warrant a mandatory order?

2052 Our submission on these two questions or issues is that our failures collectively and, in particular, the present failure do not possess that degree of seriousness to warrant a mandatory order. Please look at our conduct before the present violation. In 1997, we promised this Commission that we would take steps to avoid another logger tape problem and we kept our promise.

2053 Since notification of the present problem, we have taken the remedial steps described by Mr. Jensen in his portion of this presentation. We at the Board of Directors level treasure and value our licence. None of us have a personal or monetary interest in the licence, but we value it and have done and will continue to do whatever it takes to protect this licence.

2054 We view this licence as a privilege and not as a right, and we are fully aware that in order to retain this privilege, we must comply with the letter of the law and the spirit of the Act and the Regulations. We submit that we are responsible overseers of the broadcast activities of our station and that we have achieved compliance and are capable of maintaining compliance without a mandatory order. We submit that we have met and discharged the onus that was placed on us before this Commission to show why a mandatory order should not be issued.

2055 With respect to the matter of the licence renewal, we submit that a short but practical renewal period be imposed. A one-year period would not be practical in view of the costs of preparing for the appearance before this Commission for both the Commission and the radio station and I do not believe that this Commission is inclined to give us a three-year extension of licence. I have been here before.

2056 A two-year extension would be cost effective and practical, not too long and not too short. It also coincides with the length of a term that both Mr. Jensen and I have on the Board and it is in this period that he and I can exert our influences on the Board of Directors and on the paid staff and the volunteers.

2057 Does the Commission now wish to hear on the question of amendment to the licence?

2058 THE CHAIRPERSON: I think we may as well proceed to that question now and hear your presentation at the same time we hear this presentation.

2059 MR. JENSEN: Thank you very much.

2060 Most of the amendments that we are requesting to the Promise of Performance we are doing on kind of a clean-up of our Promise of Performance. We felt that when the Promise of Performance was done in 1992, of which we have not been able to make any amendments to since that time, there are a number of areas that have been very restrictive.

2061 When you are working in an environment of volunteers primarily, like we are, again it's difficult to maintain very high levels of certain things. Although we have been maintaining them, it has been very, very difficult to maintain many of these items.

2062 Although we are not planning any major format changes on the station -- that is not our intention -- we want to make it a little easier for us to work within the Regulations. For instance, with the category 3 music requirement being at 40 per cent, the primary reason for wanting to change that is that in the past when the Promise of Performance was done, there was the idea that most of the multicultural programs were playing traditional and special-interest music.

2063 As times have changed and evolved and the multicultural programmers are finding it necessary to try to educate and bring in a younger audience into their programs because people are starting to die off in some of the older target demographic that traditionally has been listening to ethnic programs in the past, we have asked for a reduction of traditional music because in our current Promise of Performance under sub-category 33, I believe it is -- I don't have it in front of me -- or 32, folk music was set at an incredibly high level.

2064 The reason for that was that the previous people felt that all ethnic music was folk music, which is not necessarily the case. Ethnic music or multicultural music can be from many different musical genres. So, that is the primary reason for the reflection of the decrease in traditional and special-interest music from 40 down to 20 per cent, as a minimum. We wish to maintain more than the minimum, but having a minimum at 40 per cent is difficult for us to maintain.

2065 We would like to increase the minimum level of Canadian selections broadcast from 30 to 35. With the changes in Canadian content coming, we feel that we are in a position now that we want to be able to play more Canadian content, so we are asking for that increase from 30 to 35. On our ethnic programming many of our programs are already playing more than the seven per cent Canadian selections, so we are asking to increase that to 10 per cent. We have not had a problem adhering to Canadian content on our station over the past number of years. That has been an area we have been able to maintain and excel in.

2066 As well, with regard to ethnic programs, we again wish to decrease the number of groups from 12 to 8, for the same basic reason. It's not that we are going to go out and decrease the programs, as we stated in our earlier letter of submission to the CRTC, but it is in order that we don't have these very high restrictive levels that when we are not able to maintain it, we put ourselves in a position of non-compliance. We haven't been in that position and we don't wish to be in that position for those particular issues. So, it is again a housekeeping item to maintain higher averages, but not have the restriction set too high.

2067 Those are the primary reasons for changing a number of the housekeeping duties in our Promise of Performance, respectively submitted. Thank you.

2068 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for that.

2069 I am going to ask Commissioner Demers to ask you some questions.

2070 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

2071 Good day or good midday. I just have a few general questions. You have a not-for-profit organization; that is, the owner of the station. Do you have members? How does it relate to the community?

2072 MR. JENSEN: Wired World Inc. is a non-profit organization that operates CKWR-FM. In addition to the paid staff that we have, we also have 135 members, of which 60 are active in the day-to-day programming of the station. We have some members as well who come in and do clerical functions, as we mentioned, answering phones, helping out in the music library and that sort of thing. We go out to a fair number of community events and do live broadcasts, reports and so on back to the station and we have a number of volunteers that are involved in that as well. We utilize our volunteers quite extensively.

2073 MR. GUBLER: If I may add to that, sir, we have adult members and we have student members and the rate structure is different for them. We have the student structure in order to have university or high school students come in and have an opportunity to go on air. Our policy is that no one goes on air unless they have been trained and are a member of the station. We are actively recruiting new members and it is the membership that elects us to the Board of Directors.

2074 Just to give you some background, before I went aboard in 1995, the Board of Directors consisted of six members. Since then, through my influence, we have increased it to eight. We have also changed the election on a two-year rotation. So, Mr. Jensen and I and two others were elected for a two-year term and the others will finish their two-year term next year so that we have a consistent Board. That, by way of background, is to the structure of the organization that operates the station.

2075 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Thank you.

2076 Do you have closer relations to the university than to the high school or are you open to any students?

2077 MR. JENSEN: We are open to any students. I would say our relationship -- because the university has primarily had its own radio station, the campus station being CKMS in our market, we have had more relationships with the community college and with high schools. We have an internship program that we run with the local high schools and we take two or three interns a year that come in as part of their program and work at the station doing various functions, learning various hands-on things.

2078 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Mr. Gubler, I think you said there were five or six volunteers working at the station, but maybe I was wrong there.

2079 MR. GUBLER: We have five full-time paid staff members. These are the production manager and on-air personalities and news persons. They work Monday to Friday 6:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. Then the evening's programming consists of volunteers and, of course, the weekends are dedicated to the multicultural or ethnic programmers.

2080 I didn't intend to mislead you. In addition to the five full-time members, we also have four part-time members. That is in bookkeeping, clerical, and so on. Then we have some other persons who come in and fill those hours which the part-time clerical persons can't fill. They answer the phone, purchase light bulbs and other supplies and so on. We have a number of volunteers and they answer the phone, too. These are persons who are retired and wish to be involved in our station.

2081 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Are there any on-air volunteers?

2082 MR. JENSEN: The way the structure basically works is during the daytime our programming is geared more to an older demographic because it's the area of the community that is not being served by any of the other radio stations, either campus or commercial stations in the marketplace. There was an obvious void in the radio market in our area for specialized music geared to an older demographic.

2083 So, during the daytime the music that we play is traditionally older, a lot of standards from the 1940s, the 1950s, the oldies that the Oldies station doesn't play, I guess you could say. We also have a very, very extensive amount of local news and community news programming during the day, of which we have been recognized by a number of organizations for our contributions in that area. We often get letters from people saying, "You are the only station in the market that gives us any sort of local news", and we appreciate that.

2084 As well, in addition to the staff -- we have a core staff of people who sort of are the main personalities on air, but then we also have volunteers who are doing the public service announcements, that are contributing feature programming with the professionals who we have hired on air. So, we have found that it works very, very well for us in order to offer an alternative, but also to have a sound that is a professional sound.

2085 Working with volunteers, bringing them in, integrating them into these programs, giving them additional training and working with people who have experience has been very, very positive not only for the community, but for the station over the last few years. It has been our way of surviving and offering an alternative, but also very extensive good programming to the community.

2086 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Thank you.

2087 I understand that you are the team of two who are on for the next two years or a little less since we are a few months from April.

2088 MR. JENSEN: That is us, yes.

2089 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: I will now turn to the part that deals with your coming here today, in particular. I have no questions on your request to amend, the last matter you discussed. Maybe counsel will or some of my colleagues, but I would like to turn immediately to the particular aspects of the notice that was issued concerning this hearing. As you were in the room during the other presentations, of course, you can understand that the questions I will ask will be close to the same questions that were asked of others this morning.

2090 I think you have reviewed the facts surrounding the non-compliance and I also understand from the comments you made on the general programming of your station that in fact the matter of broadcasting hits is covered by other stations in your area. In other words, you are not thinking that hits should be a service that is not already offered in other stations.

2091 MR. JENSEN: No, and primarily where we have gotten into problem with the hits has been in the area of the early years of hits. As some of our listeners have commented, we play a lot of songs that no one else plays any more, but some of them are still considered to be hits.

2092 The listeners don't have an understanding of that. They say to play a song -- I have to use an example -- by Frank Sinatra, but nobody plays Frank Sinatra anywhere within our listening area, not only in our market but in the signals that sort of penetrate our market, yet there are many Frank Sinatra songs that are considered hits. So, in our view of a hit, that might be a hit that we play that would have been one of the items that put us over.

2093 In the case of Canadian selections is a big one. We play a lot of early Canadian selections that nobody else plays, but some of them were considered hits and we weren't even aware they were hits until we got the appropriate books. As far as any of the current contemporary music that we are playing, it is all in the form of alternative contemporary programming.

2094 We have on Friday nights a show that deals specifically with local Canadian talent. That is all he plays is local acts and local bands. It's a one-and-a-half-hour program of current music, but it's not hit-related. So, it is primarily our older music where we have gotten into this.

2095 MR. GUBLER: If I may add as a supplement, in our submission we referred to this one program where we had a special on Billy Vaughn. Who listens to Billy Vaughn, "Sail Along Silvery Moon"? Yet it's a hit. This is where we are getting into difficulty. It is with the older hits, it's not top 40, if I can differentiate between the two.

2096 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: If we take it from where you describe it, I understand from what you say that had you known that it was a hit, you would not have put it there.

2097 MR. GUBLER: Absolutely.

2098 MR. JENSEN: Certainly not.

2099 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Let's get down to very close to the ground questions. Who selects the music at your station?

2100 MR. JENSEN: The volunteers, primarily, select their own music. In the daytime, we have a little bit more control over what music goes on the air. Although it is still selected, we have a little more control over what we are playing on the air. In the evenings, the volunteers decide what songs they are going to play as long as they are staying within their respective music categories. If it's a classical music program, obviously we don't allow them to play music that is not outside of the category 3 commitment. We maintain very tight commitments on that.

2101 Our programmers must sign a programmer volunteer agreement, which outlines a number of our rules and their responsibilities as far as being broadcasters. We let our volunteers know that although we are a community station, we still must follow the same regulations that commercial broadcasters need to follow and that there is no excuse for breaking the rules and regulations.

2102 So, we have them sign an agreement that they will follow specific requirements as far as their Promise of Performance. When I say "their Promise of Performance", I mean what they have promised us they are going to do on their program, which is why we gave them the program in the first place, because they were going to follow certain commitments that were part of our overall Promise of Performance. So, we have them sign those commitments.

2103 Generally, that has worked fairly well. As you can see, we have been able to maintain or even do better on our Canadian content requirements, especially with our category 3 music. Generally, we have been coming in consistently higher than the 10 per cent requirement and that's because people are very cognizant of that fact.

2104 I think with respect to our hits, it has been primarily some lack of understanding of the older music, which primarily has been from the daytime and a couple of specialty programs where the volunteers have not addressed -- haven't had the resources maybe, in the case of the country music program, to check the Canadian country music selections to what, indeed, were hits and what weren't. So, we have addressed those concerns since the time of receiving the letter in March where it was suggested by the programming team that we get these particular books, and we have done that.

2105 MR. GUBLER: As a supplementary, sir, on page 2 of our submission we referred to a volunteer as music director. This fellow's name is Tony Luciani. He has about 30 years of experience in the music business and he now works for a music store. He helps us with the selection of music and the acquisition and so on. He is a volunteer. He is now retired, he is very knowledgeable, and we are very fortunate in having a professional of his calibre in the selection.

2106 It is now part of his task to select the music and separate hits from non-hits into the automated system that's going in and that's what, as our tab 5 exhibit shows, basically brought us into compliance. It's very difficult without expertise like Mr. Luciani's to do it. We need him and we are glad we have him.

2107 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Does he prepare documents for the station or does he sometimes come to the station?

2108 MR. JENSEN: Yes, he is at the station three days a week. Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays he spends his mornings at the station. He orders a lot of our specialized music CDs. As our previous counterparts indicated, we get an awful lot of music as well into our station, most of which is popular music. It's not specialized music or category 3 music.

2109 We have a budget in our budget for music purchases where we purchase probably 200 or 300 CDs a year of classical music and jazz. We have been able to actually acquire a fair number of jazz CDs just by being on certain charts and so on, but classical music is definitely something we have to purchase and we have a budget for that. So, he is very much an expert in classical, both in the CBC series of selections and various other classical music. So, we have relied on his experience to guide us in that area.

2110 We do a lot of classical music programming. We have three programs a week and we are the only station in the market really that is doing any classical music, other than the CBC, which comes into our market. So, we have done very well with that.

2111 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Just a last question, all inclusive. You have indicated in your written document, in your presentation, that as far as you knew, your station was complying to all the Regulations in the Act. Do you have anything to add on that and also do you wish to give us further evidence to the effect that there should not be an order issued?

2112 MR. GUBLER: Sir, we would be repeating what we have already said.

2113 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Thank you. I consider your answer to be a repetition of it.

2114 MR. GUBLER: Yes.

2115 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Thank you.

2116 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

2117 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

2118 I think our counsel, Mr. McCallum has some questions.

2119 MR. McCALLUM: Just a couple of quick questions.

2120 In the amendments that you are seeking, I think one of your amendments is to increase the minimum level of Canadian selections broadcast within content category 2 from 30 to 35 per cent. I take it that anticipates the possible changes to the community radio policy that has been --

2121 MR. JENSEN: No, it does not. This was decided before the community radio policy proposal was even issued.

2122 MR. McCALLUM: But basically what you are saying by that is you are totally at ease with that proposal, if adopted?

2123 MR. JENSEN: Yes, we are.

2124 MR. McCALLUM: Of course, you would be adhering to the conditions of licence in your Promise of Performance until that is adopted?

2125 MR. JENSEN: That's right.

2126 MR. McCALLUM: You haven't made any requests regarding content category 3. Of course, Public Notice 1999-75 proposed to increase that from 10 to 12. I take it you would have no problem with that requirement if that were imposed as well?

2127 MR. JENSEN: At the current time, if you will notice on our self-assessment, we are at 19.8, I believe, without turning the page. In all of our assessments that we have been doing off and on and I believe in our assessment that went to the CRTC, we were considerably over the 12 per cent requirement. So, I would say, no, we don't have a problem with that.

2128 MR. McCALLUM: Good, thank you.

2129 MR. GUBLER: As a supplement to that, in 1997 we also asked for an amendment to the licence and at that time we also asked for a reduction in the number of languages that we were broadcasting. The decision of licence renewal came back that we must maintain a certain level, I believe 12, and we had no problem adhering with it. That is our licence. We have no problem adhering with it if we wish to stay on the air. It's as simple as all that. Mr. Jensen and I have pounded that into the heads of our colleagues from the Board and to the volunteer and paid staff.

2130 MR. McCALLUM: Essentially, you are saying that you are in compliance with all your requirements and conditions at the present time?

2131 MR. JENSEN: Yes, we are.

2132 MR. GUBLER: Yes, we are.

2133 MR. McCALLUM: Could you just clarify one thing? In the correspondence that was exchanged with the Commission, you referred to the Selector music scheduling system. Is that what you are referring to at page 8 of your presentation when you said, "We readjusted the music clocks for our daytime format..."?

2134 MR. JENSEN: Yes. In the daytime, we have the volunteers who have selected what music is going to be played. We have over 4,000 cuts of music that have gone into Mediatouch and Selector. Selector schedules it. It has been the best way we have found in order to control hits and non-hits. Otherwise, you are at the whim of volunteers and staff in the daytime, who may not know what a hit is. Then, of course, it could put us over, as was the case prior to this where we were at 18.8 rather than 15. We feel that that has been our best way of being able to control it, was doing that with Selector.

2135 MR. McCALLUM: Could you just clarify what does the Selector system do? I think what you explained was that the volunteers actually choose the music. Do they choose from the music that has been pre-categorized according to the Selector music scheduling system?

2136 MR. JENSEN: I will just clarify a little bit more. In the evening programs and the weekend programs where it is a much more broken-up, specialized -- we have country, Celtic, jazz, blues, world music, all of this sort of thing in the evening hours. They select their own music from the CDs. We found that there generally will be absolutely no problem with playing hits because there are not too many classical music selections that have made it to the top 40 or anything.

2137 The Canadian content requirements for specialty music we have been able to maintain with our volunteer programmers having the knowledge to know what is a Canadian selection and what isn't from our training programs. It has been the daytime format where we are playing a little bit more -- we are playing older music that other people aren't playing, but some of which is still considered to have been hits in the past, Andy Williams, Englebert Humperdink, things like this. So, we have used Selector to control it.

2138 Selector is a music scheduling system, but the volunteer music program director and the volunteers have had the input in what goes into the system in order to be scheduled. We are using the system to schedule the music in order to maintain the Canadian content requirements, better control over the hit requirements, and so on.

2139 MR. McCALLUM: So, the Selector separates hits and non-hits. Does it separate Canadian content from non-Canadian content?

2140 MR. JENSEN: Yes.

2141 MR. McCALLUM: Does it do other things as well?

2142 MR. JENSEN: Selector is a music scheduling system, so we tell it how many Canadian selections within the hour we want to play and it sets those up. It puts in the number of Canadian selections required. We have different categories set up for non-hits for instruments and so on and then we tell the system how many of those we want to play in an hour.

2143 We have set it, basically, with the hits. Because we play virtually zero hits on the weekends and in the evenings, we have set the system up to say this is the percentage of hits we will play during a particularly hour so that as an average over a week we come in below the requirement.

2144 MR. McCALLUM: So, the music Selector system actually selects the hits for, let's say, the daytime day parts?

2145 MR. JENSEN: Yes.

2146 MR. McCALLUM: And the volunteers do it for nights and weekends?

2147 MR. JENSEN: Right.

2148 MR. McCALLUM: So, essentially, the Selector system selects the hits for the times that you have found to be problem areas in the past?

2149 MR. JENSEN: That's right.

2150 MR. McCALLUM: So, you have gone to a computerized system for that and in the areas where you don't have a problem, the volunteers self-select?

2151 MR. JENSEN: That's right.

2152 MR. McCALLUM: Is there any sort of back-up system in place in case the computer breaks down?

2153 MR. JENSEN: We back everything up to our server, so we have hard drive back-up on the computer, as well as on the server, and we have an Omega Zip drive which we back up all of our music database to so that if the system would crash, then we can easily resurrect it on another PC workstation.

2154 MR. McCALLUM: And it is checked periodically?

2155 MR. JENSEN: Our volunteer music director, who is in Monday, Wednesday, Friday mornings does a back-up three times a week onto the diskette and I check it occasionally as well to ensure that it's operating properly. We haven't had any problems, touch wood, since it went in.

2156 MR. McCALLUM: Thank you very much.

2157 Thank you, Mr. Chair.

2158 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

2159 Thank you for appearing here today.

2160 We will take our lunch break now and reconvene at a quarter to 2:00; 1:45.

2161 MR. GUBLER: Does that mean we may go home, sir?

2162 THE CHAIRPERSON: That means you can go home.

2163 MR. GUBLER: Thank you.

2164 MR. JENSEN: One last thing. Does the Commission wish copies of the paper documents of the self-assessment report that is in the booklet? I have the music logs for that week, if you wish them.

2165 MR. McCALLUM: Will they assist the Commission in its evaluation of whether or not to issue a mandatory order, in your submission?

2166 MR. JENSEN: I will leave them with you.

2167 THE CHAIRPERSON: That's fine, thank you.

--- Recess at / Suspension à 1248

--- Upon resuming at / Reprise à 1346

2168 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Cussons, could you call the first party, please?

2169 MR. CUSSONS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

2170 We will now hear an application by Norcom Telecommunications Limited to renew the broadcasting licence of the television programming undertaking CJBN-TV Kenora/Keewatin, Ontario expiring 31 August, 1999.

2171 The Commission notes that during the 1996-97 and 1997-98 broadcast years, the licensee was in apparent breach of subsection 4(6) and paragraph 4(7)(b) of the Television Broadcasting Regulations, 1987 that require a licensee to devote not less than 60 per cent of the broadcast year and not less than 50 per cent of the evening broadcast period to the broadcasting of Canadian programming. During those years, Canadian content over the broadcast year amounted to 48 per cent. During 1996-97, Canadian content during the evening period was 35 per cent and during 1997-98 amounted to 34 per cent.

2172 During these broadcast years, the licensee was also in apparent non-compliance with its commitment to broadcast a minimum of two hours and 30 minutes per week of original local news averaged over a year. It now proposes to reduce this commitment to 30 minutes per week.

2173 The Commission expects the licensee to show cause at this hearing why a mandatory order requiring the licensee to comply with subsection 4(6) and paragraph (4)(7)(b) of the Television Broadcasting Regulations, 1987 should not be issued.

2174 Gentlemen, before you begin your presentation, I think again counsel has a few words on the mandatory order option.

2175 Counsel?

2176 MR. McCALLUM: As I said a few times this morning, I have a few words on mandatory orders.

2177 Under section 12 of the Broadcasting Act, the Commission may hear any matter where it appears that a person has failed to do any act that the person is required to do pursuant to any licence or decision issued by the Commission and issue a mandatory order to ensure compliance with any such licence or decision.

2178 In the case of Norcom Telecommunications Limited, CJBN-TV, one of the questions under consideration by the Panel today is the possible issuance of a mandatory order requiring compliance with subsection 4(6) and paragraph (4)(7)(b) of the Television Broadcasting Regulations, 1987 that require a licensee to devote not less than 60 per cent of the broadcast year and not less than 50 per cent of the evening broadcast period to the broadcasting of Canadian programming.

2179 If a mandatory order is issued and CJBN-TV subsequently failed to comply with these requirements, the Commission would provide evidence of such failure to the Court and, thereafter, a show cause hearing for contempt of court would take place before the Federal Court of Canada. CJBN-TV would be entitled to present a defence and, if found guilty of contempt of court, it would be subject to a fine, as set by the Court.

2180 As you are aware, CJBN-TV has been called to show cause why a mandatory order should not issue. This means that you have the burden of convincing this Panel why the Commission should not issue a mandatory order. I trust this makes these procedures very clear.

2181 MR. RITCHIE: Yes.

2182 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. McCallum.

2183 Please proceed with your presentation.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

2184 MR. RITCHIE: Thank you.

2185 I am Warren Ritchie, General Manager of Norcom Telecommunications, and to my right is Darryl Michaluk, our Programming and Sales Manager.

2186 Mr. Chairman, esteemed Panel, we are here today to speak about CJBN-TV's failure to meet subsection 4(6) and paragraph 4(7)(b) of the Television Broadcasting Regulations, 1987 for the years 1996-97 and 1997-98. During our presentation, we will review why this has occurred and explain what steps we are taking to ensure this doesn't happen again.

2187 CJBN-TV broadcasts in the Lake of the Woods area of northwestern Ontario, which, with a DMA of 5,800 households, is the smallest television market in Canada. CJBN began in the early 1980s as a dream of a local entrepreneur, Carl Johnson, to create a regional and national broadcaster headquartered in Kenora.

2188 A string of rebroadcast transmitters would extend the reach of CJBN throughout the region and a signal would be up-linked as part of a central time zone SRDU package. Unfortunately, Carl lost his SRDU bid to Cancom and soon the sheer size of the region made the rebroad sites uneconomical. As a result, CJBN broadcasts only to the Lake of the Woods area.

2189 CJBN is a division of Norcom Telecommunications, which also operates 15 small cable systems throughout the region. During the past five years, it has been a challenge to survive as both the smallest television station in Canada and as a small cable system operator. New challenges confront us daily and we have learned to adapt creatively to meet these head on.

2190 Our breach of the Broadcast Regulations was inexcusable, but a number of factors led to this situation. First, economics. Simply put, we have been in a pure survival mode for the past few years. While our market is limited at the best of times, we were hit hard by a large economic downturn, including significant job loss in government and production slow-downs and strikes at our paper mill and a new weekly newspaper started up in our community, competing for the already limited advertising dollars. National advertising is now being split amongst all the many new services licensed and the first to be cut are small markets.

2191 The rapidly-changing broadcasting landscape has introduced very strong DTH competitors with deep pockets into our market. In order to survive, we have attempted to operate as economically as possible. We have cut our programming budget by over 30 per cent in the last three years and we have reorganized and reduced our staffing levels.

2192 This has resulted in our staffing having to perform multiple tasks. For example, our programming manager here doubles as the local and national sales manager and also produces his own commercials. With all these responsibilities, sometimes details can get lost in the shuffle, such as monitoring Canadian content.

2193 Secondly, proper tools. Our traffic program is very inadequate and chock full of deficiencies. Key figures must be inputted manually on the title line and in some cases has resulted in not enough space for the full program title, there is no space for information like C numbers and, therefore, we may not have received full credit for all Canadian programming, and this is complicated by industry standard programs such as Columbine systems not being affordable for our market. As a result, we and the Commission have been unable to properly monitor our Canadian content on an ongoing basis.

2194 Thirdly, Canadian programming. The availability of affordable Canadian programming has changed and effectively caught us off guard. For example, the loss of Blue Jays baseball on a bartered basis cost us 120 hours per year that we could not easily replace.

2195 Good Canadian programming comes at a premium and we have found that Canadian distributors have not been very receptive to working with a small station like ours. In fact when our program director has contacted certain distributors, he is lucky to receive a reply and, if he does, the price quoted is usually well out of our budget. As a result, we have over-exposed the Canadian programming available to us, leading to viewer fatigue.

2196 Fourth, local news. While local content is important to our identity, there is a tremendous cost to providing it. Stations in much larger markets have the resources to produce daily newscasts which contribute significantly to their Canadian content. Our resources allow us to provide a weekly half-hour news show that is 100 per cent local. We also provide a number of quality local programs on our cable system and community channel through shared facilities and resources.

2197 What are we doing to ensure this doesn't happen again? First, our future schedules are to be compliant from the outset. Programming schedules change constantly and we will ensure that we have access to enough Canadian content to be compliant at any given time through extended partnerships with program suppliers. In fact I am happy to report that we are now meeting and exceeding the Regulations.

2198 We are in the process of building a new traffic program which will report the program numbers properly and give us ongoing reports on Canadian content. This program will be completed and up and running by the end of September.

2199 Third, we will put into place a series of checks for Canadian content and monitor it on an ongoing basis. Although we lost sight of the importance of this to our operation in the past, it will be an ongoing priority in the future. In fact we would be willing to provide six-month reports on our Canadian content.

2200 Finally, our operation is running smoother now. To be honest, for a while there we did not have a direction and we weren't sure whether we would be around tomorrow. In the past year, we have refocused ourselves and feel more confident about the future. By taking advantage of our synergies as a company, we are seeing better financial results. This has allowed us the luxury of thinking about other issues other than surviving.

2201 In conclusion, CJBN-TV has always tried to provide the people of the Lake of the Woods area with the best possible local, Canadian and international programming. This has never been easy, but we are committed to this goal.

2202 We realize that there have been significant shortfalls in our Canadian programming commitments and this cannot be taken lightly. As I have stated previously, we have already taken measures to bring this in line. In fact for the period of January 4th, 1999 to September 4th, 1999 we expect to be at 64 per cent overall and 50 per cent prime.

2203 CJBN has been an integral part of our community through donated air time, award-winning crime stoppers, community vignettes, PSAs, election forums, rotary auctions, and local news and magazine programs. Our weekly news show is well received in the community and is an important source of information for our reviewers. It provides in-depth coverage on issues that affect our community.

2204 Through our shared resources and facilities, CJBN-TV and Norcom Cablevision provide many hours of valuable television programming that reflects the diversity of our area. We would like to continue this commitment to our community and ask the Commission for leniency when reviewing our past shortfalls.

2205 Thank you.

2206 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Ritchie.

2207 Let me just get a little insight into the history of the station. You have touched on it in your presentation. I take it it was originally conceived or the business premise underlying the introduction of the station was that it would become a superstation, that it would be up-linked to SRDUs and distributed across Canada. Is that right?

2208 MR. RITCHIE: I believe that's the situation. Darryl was actually there at that time.

2209 MR. MICHALUK: I have been at the station for 18 years now. The original thought of Carl Johnson was to set up the first Cancom package for distribution for cable companies across Canada and he needed a CTV station to include in this. The CKY signal from Winnipeg would not come in well enough over the land lines to Kenora, so he applied for a C3 supplementary affiliate licence and was granted it.

2210 Then when the cable distribution package did not come around, Norcom was left with CJBN-TV, a CTV supplementary affiliate. Since then, it has changed. Carl Johnson no longer is involved in Norcom. Our parent company is Leblanc & Royale. They own the majority of our shares. So, that is the background of the original thoughts of that, because there was no CTV station in the Kenora area off air.

2211 THE CHAIRPERSON: So, the original idea was to overcome the small market in Kenora by obtaining a very large market through satellite distribution and now it seems you are -- I don't mean this in a negative way, but you are stuck with a small market.

2212 MR. RITCHIE: We are struggling, yes.

2213 THE CHAIRPERSON: You say during the past five years it has been a challenge to survive. Prior to that five-year period, was the station profitable? The business idea began in the 1980s, I take it. What happened between the five-year period that you have just referred to and the commencement of the station? Was there an era where it was profitable and satisfying its Canadian content obligations?

2214 MR. RITCHIE: We, I think, satisfied the Canadian content. I don't believe we were ever profitable as a stand-alone television station. It has gotten worse in those five years. I think the direction and the availability of national advertising dollars has made a big difference.

2215 MR. MICHALUK: Our projections, let's say, six years back was at a better pace to go upward profit-wise, but started closing the gap on the fact that we weren't making a profit. Then we were hit hard locally and nationally on our sales. National sales dwindled. A lot of the stations in Ontario can say how much the government spending stopped when the governments changed hands two elections ago. The government spending decreased a lot and that was a lot of our national dollars. So, the projections that we had did not come through.

2216 Locally, with the hits to government losses and stuff -- Kenora is a very small town. I don't mean to go on here, but it's a very small town and when government jobs are lost and the pulp and paper, which is the major industry and pretty much the only big industry, is hit hard, local retailers are hit hard and their advertising budgets are the first to be cut, which affect us directly.

2217 THE CHAIRPERSON: So, the station has never been profitable, but the last five years have been particularly difficult for the circumstances you have outlined here. I am just trying to understand how these circumstances will change. I am not talking about your Canadian content obligations at this point, I am just trying to understand the economic circumstances, how they will change in the future.

2218 You were hit by a large economic downturn, job loss in the government. Presumably, that is not going to change. That is a permanent job loss. At the mill there have been, I take it, slow-downs and strikes. Presumably, you can look forward to no more slow-downs and strikes or is that a reasonable expectation?

2219 MR. RITCHIE: There is a couple of things to say. They have settled with a long-term contract. The mill was purchased -- it has changed hands a number of times. The last purchase was Abitibi Consolidated. They have made a lot of commitments to the community. The reports say it's one of the more viable mills, so there is a more positive turn in the economics. The government lay-offs have happened, the town survived. The basic economics of the town have settled. There was a very negative period there.

2220 I guess there are some other things that we are looking at, too. We, in the last year and a half, have internally looked at our operation: Where is CJBN-TV, are we too small a market, can a small cable system survive? We have been doing a lot of that and I am sure a lot of small cable operators and small television systems are doing this.

2221 We felt that, yes, we can compete, we can be there, but we certainly have to take advantage of the synergies we have as one company and look at the products we are offering and combine our resources. We have a lot of creative people and sales people that we can take advantage of in both operations. We tended to, in the past, look at it as two separate operations and we are trying to utilize the resources we have and take the most advantage of them.

2222 THE CHAIRPERSON: Just looking at the circumstances that have caused problems in the last five years, continuing on with that you cite the new weekly newspaper. Presumably, the new weekly newspaper will continue into the future, so you will continue to have to face that.

2223 National advertising being split amongst all the new services and so on, that is a situation that, presumably, isn't going to go away.

2224 DTH competitors. Let me ask you a little more about that. I would assume you would agree that's a competitor that isn't going to go away.

2225 MR. RITCHIE: No.

2226 THE CHAIRPERSON: To what extent has DTH made inroads into the market that you try to serve with your television station?

2227 MR. RITCHIE: In our cable market, we are probably at five per cent penetration. In the non-cabled market, it's fairly significantly high. I don't have the actual numbers, but there is a fair amount of people that have dishes.

2228 THE CHAIRPERSON: Just to make sure I understand this correctly, the difficulty with DTH, from the television station's point of view, is that the local television station isn't distributed by DTH. So, unless people look at it over the air, they are not receiving your service.

2229 MR. RITCHIE: Exactly, yes, unless they put up the A/B switch and a separate antenna, that's right.

2230 THE CHAIRPERSON: Do people tend to do that, in your experience? Do they tend to install that switch and put up the antenna?

2231 MR. RITCHIE: I would say about 50 per cent, just judging from the people I talk to that have the dishes. A fair amount don't, but a fair number do. If they are close to the town and they can pick it up with rabbit ears, they will do it. If they have to put up a fairly significant antenna, they won't do it.

2232 THE CHAIRPERSON: So, looking at the things that have caused you problems in the last few years and put you into the survival mode, the only thing that would seem to be changing in the next five years is the fact that the mill won't experience these slow-downs and strikes. Is that the only thing in terms of the business environment that will change from what you have experienced in the last few years?

2233 MR. RITCHIE: No. I guess on a business level within our operation, we are planning to offer more services. We are planning to go into the Internet, we are going to see advantages of bundling our sales and working on sales between our program guide, on our cable system, our sales on our broadcast television station, CJBN-TV.

2234 Technically, the heading in the sky solution, I think, is a viable solution for a small cable system operator. I realize I am tying this a lot to our cable system, but there really is a tie between the operation of the television station and the operation of the cable system.

2235 I think there are other economic factors that are affecting our community. There is an amalgamation going on. We have, actually, three separate municipalities/towns in this one little area. They were always at odds. They are amalgamating into one community. I think economically that will make a difference for the future of our community. There are things that we have read in.

2236 I guess it will always be a challenge. I have to admit that this won't be a challenge to go forward, but I think things are looking a little more positive.

2237 THE CHAIRPERSON: To make sure I understand what you are saying, the key factor that will cause the television station to pull out of the survival mode will be your ability to integrate, from a business perspective, the television station in your cable systems. Is that correct?

2238 MR. RITCHIE: Yes. That's a big part of it, yes.

2239 THE CHAIRPERSON: And the key benefit of the integration or the synergy is being able to sell advertising as a package. I understand the advertising you would sell on your over-the-air television station. What advertising do you sell that could be distributed on your cable system, apart from the over-the-air television station?

2240 MR. RITCHIE: We have a program guide on our cable system with a split screen and the top half of the program guide is reserved for advertising, local advertising.

2241 MR. MICHALUK: Also, too, when we get more involved in the Internet, there is a lot of advertising there on pages. So, we can offer customers three places to be at once, on the TV station, on the program guide and on the Internet web pages that will be set up, because a lot of times the bundling appeals to the local retailers a lot more than a bigger retailer or a national retailer. They want to be as many places as they can and if we offer a better bundled package, they will divert funds so that the local retail sales will increase.

2242 THE CHAIRPERSON: This would be your offering Internet service over your cable system. Is that what I understand?

2243 MR. RITCHIE: High speed, yes.

2244 THE CHAIRPERSON: You would sell advertising banners on your home page, things like that, and integrate that into a package?

2245 MR. RITCHIE: Yes.

2246 THE CHAIRPERSON: That's the revenue aspect of the synergies. Are there synergies that you haven't already achieved with respect to integrating your staff and other cost-based resources?

2247 MR. RITCHIE: I think those synergies -- in the last year we have been meeting them. We have made great improvements on our bottom line on the television station and as a company overall in the last year. This isn't something we are proposing. We have actually made some improvements. The areas certainly fall within the production between our community channel and the local news, sales, the administration, all those areas where we have seen the synergies happen.

2248 THE CHAIRPERSON: I wanted to ask you a bit about that. In your presentation you noted that you had cut your programming budget by over 30 per cent in the last three years. Information that I have that is prepared from the filings you submit to the Commission indicates that in 1998 over 1997 your administrative and general expenses went up significantly.

2249 I am not quoting the exact numbers because I think these numbers were filed in confidence with the Commission, but the information I have indicates that administration and general increased almost three times. What would be the reason for that?

2250 MR. RITCHIE: Sorry, what year was that?

2251 THE CHAIRPERSON: That's 1998 compared to 1997. If you want, I can quote the numbers, but you did submit them in confidence. If you want me to quote them, I can.

2252 Not to interrupt you, part of that may be explained by employees because at the same time I notice the number of employees in administration and general increased several times as well.

2253 MR. RITCHIE: I have an answer for that, but it's a confusing one. Our annual report that we did was normally completed in the past by our head office, which is Leblanc & Royale Telecom. I believe that some of the reporting was not -- they interpreted it different than the way we interpreted it. That was the first year we did it and we --

2254 THE CHAIRPERSON: You are trying to be tactful here, I think.

2255 MR. RITCHIE: Yes. We interpreted it the way we thought and we moved the numbers around. The basic total is the same. We ended up saying, really, this is what the numbers should be into. I think they tended to put more into programming cost. We interpreted it different and said, no, those are more administration costs. That would be the reason for the significant jump in the administration and general that year.

2256 THE CHAIRPERSON: I should be clear here, too, and I wasn't exactly. The numbers I am quoting relate strictly to remuneration. It's not all administrative and general, it's the salaries that went up so much. You are saying that is as a result of --

2257 MR. RITCHIE: Just interpreting it differently and moving it from one column to another. We ended up putting more into administration and general.

2258 THE CHAIRPERSON: I notice the total number of employees is the same in 1998 as it was in 1997, so that's the explanation there?

2259 MR. RITCHIE: Yes.

2260 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks for that.

2261 Just sticking with your presentation a little bit longer, you referred to the difficulties of obtaining good Canadian programming for a station that is in the situation that you are in, which is a unique situation, as you pointed out. I take it you have overcome this problem because you said that now you are meeting your Canadian content requirements. How did you manage to overcome this difficulty in obtaining Canadian programming?

2262 MR. MICHALUK: One thing that was explained in the report was we have to repeat some of the shows more than I would normally as a programmer like to do -- we do have the runs available on the shows -- but we also have explored new avenues with our program suppliers just by diligence and phone calls and finding what they have in their vaults of programming that we would be licensed for.

2263 We have a blanket deal with one supplier where what he owns for Canadian rights or shows that he has the Canadian rights on we can have access to in our blanket coverage. So, he has been able to go into his vault through my urging and his help to find us more Canadian programming to put into our schedule.

2264 We have also made inroads with other small stations, talking to them and asking about what their difficulties were in finding Canadian shows. Between one station and I, we have put together a list of probably eight to ten shows that I didn't know about that are available on a barter basis that are Canadian outdoor shows. So, we have been able to add those to our line-up.

2265 So, it is just a lot of creative moving around and finding shows to fill gaps with. It hasn't enhanced our line-up a great deal with the viewer fatigue on certain episodes of our shows, but we have been able to move it in line and still keep our viewers, which is a difficult thing in a market where, with your dish, you can pick up what you want that is available U.S.-wise or whatever.

2266 THE CHAIRPERSON: When you say you pick up on a barter basis, could you explain to me what you mean by "barter"?

2267 MR. MICHALUK: What a barter basis is is we don't pay cash for the program. We, in turn, give back commercial time to the producers of the show. They will make a deal with an automobile company, so they will run one ad in that show and that's what we give them, the barter time in that show. Then we sell the rest, as we can, but the show is available to us on a cash -- to me, as the program director, the cash flow is a big issue because we only have a certain budget. So, if I can get a show that's on barter that is a good show, then I can add it to the line-up without having to go into my budget supply.

2268 I should say also, too, we are not oversold with commercials at this point in time, so I have the air time that I can be generous with so it allows that to happen. The Blue Jays was an example. We used to pick up the Blue Jays on barter. We would exchange, I think it was, eight and a half minutes of time during the games for those games, which gave us three hours plus per game of Canadian content.

2269 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks.

2270 Let me just ask one other question about the business viability before I move on to the conditions of licence. I read through your application and listened to your presentation and so on. I guess I would like to hear from you that you are firmly convinced that there is a viable financial future for this business because if you certainly look over the past few years, it has been a struggle -- and there have been good reasons for the struggle, you have told us about that -- but you are confident that going forward you can overcome these problems?

2271 MR. RITCHIE: Yes, absolutely. We did, just in the last year, sit down and really look at ourselves and think of where we are as a company. It really came down to our shareholders having confidence in us, as well as employees. We had confidence in ourselves and in the last six months we have had these discussions with our shareholders and they are confident as well. I would be the first to admit it is going to be challenge, but I believe that there are opportunities there for a small system like ours to continue.

2272 THE CHAIRPERSON: Let me now turn to your Canadian content obligations and your problems in satisfying those requirements. You said earlier in your presentation that you can now report that you are meeting and exceeding the Regulations. Can you provide us with any detailed data to substantiate that point or to document that point for us?

2273 It's important that we have as much information as possible about this area because when the hearing is over, we will retire and consider whether or not to impose a mandatory order. So, the more detailed information you provide us, the better.

2274 MR. MICHALUK: What I have done is manually gone through all the schedules, as we said, from January 4th through to September 4th, where we will be at. I manually went through all of the schedules and did the calculations. I don't have those right here, but I can get them to send to you very quickly. I have done the calculations. I have my rough notes of calculations, which I can give to you, if you want. They are handwritten.

2275 THE CHAIRPERSON: I think it would be helpful to have your analysis for the period you just described. I would ask our counsel, though, to provide some advice about what time should be available to file that information with us.

2276 MR. McCALLUM: Would you need until the end of the week to file that information?

2277 MR. MICHALUK: As soon as we get back to Kenora, which is tonight or tomorrow morning, I will put the packet together and put it in a courier to you. If Canada Day doesn't mess up the courier too bad, yes. It may be bumped by one day because of the holiday, but, yes.

2278 MR. McCALLUM: So, we will assume we will receive it, let's say, by July 5, which is Monday.

2279 MR. MICHALUK: Okay, yes.

2280 MR. RITCHIE: Yes.

2281 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

2282 I am going to ask you a couple of questions that may seem to be repetitive with respect to the points you have already discussed with us, but, as we have explained to other parties earlier today, we want to give you every opportunity to provide us with as much information as possible when we consider whether or not to issue a mandatory order.

2283 Given the repeated failure over the last two licence terms to broadcast the minimum levels of Canadian content required by the Regulations, please tell us why the Commission should not issue the order.

2284 MR. RITCHIE: We feel very confident in ourselves right now that we have gotten over this period of unknown, in the mode of: Are we here tomorrow, can we get enough advertising on tomorrow to maintain the station? We feel very confident that we are beyond that, so confident that, like I say, we are writing our own program. We spent a year and a half searching for a program that will allow us to find the information or track the information that we need to track to follow Canadian content.

2285 So, we are writing our own and it will be up and running by the end of September. We have a planned series of checks of our Canadian content in our programming going forward. We are going to, I think on a monthly basis, ensure our programming is compliant. Like I say, we would certainly be willing to submit reports on a bi-annual basis. We are certainly very committed internally to making this work. I think in the past it kind of got lost, but I believe that between Darryl and myself we are very committed to making sure that doesn't happen again.

2286 MR. MICHALUK: With regard to the manual checks, I am here to say that I am guaranteeing that I am going to be doing those on a weekly basis and meeting with Warren on a monthly basis so that he double checks my work. We will be able to do that a bit better time-wise with our new program. It will take less time. It is not manpower-oriented man hours. Our new program will allow me to make changes to my schedule that are immediate.

2287 Right now what I basically have to do is I take my schedule and I white out when I need to make changes. Then I go over to the workstation, I redo it on Excel, and then give it to the traffic person, who then puts it into the system that we use now that we can update after it has been created, where with our new system I can make the changes immediately. It takes less time for me to do that work, but I can have an instant report on where my Canadian content is at. So, we are building the system to help us check so we don't run into these problems ever again.

2288 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks very much.

2289 I would like to ask you a couple of questions about local programming on CJBN. In 1998, Norcom made a quantitative commitment to produce and broadcast each week three hours and 30 minutes of original news. In 1995, the commitment was reduced to two hours and 30 minutes and, as you are aware, you agreed with filings from the station's logs and indicated this commitment was not being met. The current schedule reflects your new commitment, which is now down to 30 minutes a week.

2290 How can you satisfy us that this commitment will continue on in light of the fact that the commitment to local programming has been declining over the years? I guess the question is: Will it go lower? Can we be satisfied that this is now it?

2291 MR. RITCHIE: It's the bottom line. We have to maintain a local presence on our station and we do that with our weekly newsmagazine program. It will not get any less than that because it's important to have that local content. We recognize that.

2292 A little background on that. The reason we did go from the higher level to the half-hour was we weren't producing -- we were trying to just get two and a half hours a week. We weren't producing much with that. There wasn't a lot of local content. Our news staff was basically -- their whole day was making sure they got on air.

2293 We felt that we could provide a better product with better content by going to a weekly magazine show covering the stories in-depth and we are 100 per cent committed to that because without that local show, we are no different than anything else on the band. We would like to provide more, but it is fairly costly. We are looking at everything.

2294 We believe that that's important. That's a minimum. We do do other things over the air. I think our local programming, rather than committing to hours per week, we do things like election forums, we do music specials, we also again do our synergies, and it works, between our community channels and the TV station.

2295 When we go to cover a hockey game for the community channel, we take the footage we shoot for the hockey game, we use that on our weekly news program, and talk to the coach. So, I see that it's not going to be a problem because we are committed to providing that kind of local production on both our community channel and the TV station.

2296 THE CHAIRPERSON: So, this is another one of the synergies between the cable system and the over-the-air television station that you were referring to earlier, this ability to integrate local programming resources?

2297 MR. RITCHIE: Oh, absolutely, and in fact our weekly newsmagazine show, which is called "Point of View", we actually air it on our community channels that are outside the licensed areas, the CJBN area. We have 15 other systems with community channels, a number of those, so we tend to regionalize that program for northwestern Ontario and make some of the stories more regional. So, those people actually get that programming as well on their cable systems.

2298 THE CHAIRPERSON: I take it it would be your view that it would be misleading for us to focus strictly on the 30 minutes per week on the over-the-air station. There are other things the station does that are local programming and, secondly, you are extending that reach into your cable audience through the community channel?

2299 MR. RITCHIE: Yes, absolutely.

2300 THE CHAIRPERSON: Let me ask you another question about local programming. It's an important aspect of television stations for a variety of reasons, but another reason that it's important, at least from a regulatory perspective, is we link the ability to provide local advertising with the provision of local programming. On the face of it, the 30 minutes may very well be the lowest or the most modest commitment we have from television stations or at least a stand-alone TV station with respect to local programming.

2301 I just wondered if you could give us any comments on what you think a good benchmark would be in small markets, such as the one you are in, with respect to over-the-air television broadcasting, taking into account that you are the only source for advertisers who want to advertise on local television in your area. Do you have any thoughts about a benchmark in those circumstances?

2302 MR. RITCHIE: Just to clarify, the benchmark you are asking about is in relation to what?

2303 THE CHAIRPERSON: On the face of it, your station has a very low amount of local programming, 30 minutes per week, and you have explained why it may be a bit misleading to rely strictly on the 30 minutes. We do link the ability to access local advertising to the provision of local programming. I am wondering if you have any thoughts on what is an appropriate benchmark for a television station in your circumstances with respect to the minimum amount of local programming that should be available.

2304 One of the factors there is you are the only outlet for advertisers that want to advertise on local television. Does that give them enough access, do you think?

2305 MR. RITCHIE: I guess I would have to say that what we are at is a good benchmark. Just to clarify, I apologize --

2306 THE CHAIRPERSON: Is 30 minutes a good benchmark --

2307 MR. RITCHIE: Yes.

2308 THE CHAIRPERSON:  -- or would you see a higher benchmark if the station was financially viable?

2309 MR. RITCHIE: I would say 30 minutes is a good benchmark because feedback from our viewers has been that they enjoy the news program and when we went from the daily newscast to a half-hour weekly, we actually had more compliments than anything. They enjoyed that format. There were no comments of, "I wish you had a daily one." I think they understand the market we are in. So, in our opinion, it is a good benchmark because it provides the stories that -- for the amount of stories that are out there, we can cover the issues on a weekly basis.

2310 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks.

2311 With respect to your fall programming plans, have you finalized those plans yet?

2312 MR. MICHALUK: I have finalized most of the plans at this point. I still have to contact one more source for our final set of programs. I have set up our schedule with ideology of where the Canadian programs will be placed and how it will set up in the program line-up.

2313 I have made inroads with our major supplier. We buy most of our programs from one group and I have already talked to them about accessing as much quality Canadian programming as possible to beef up our line-up, yet keep our line-up competitive in a cabled world and a DTH world. So, we have been able to set that up so that we will still attain competitive programming and still have the Canadian. I guess I am running around the issue.

2314 The main person we buy programming for, the offer has been made and it is just a matter of time for it to come back. We are not the number one priority of approving because we probably pay them the least amount of anybody in Canada, but it's not in limbo. It's just a matter of time to be approved.

2315 THE CHAIRPERSON: Would you be in a position to provide us with a preliminary block program schedule for the fall?

2316 MR. MICHALUK: I have one here right now that does have a lot of TBA in it. What I can do with the package that I am going to send you is I can fill in some more gaps as soon as I get back program-wise and then if there is TBA Canadian, I will mark it as such. But, yes, I can and I will send it in the package.

2317 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Those are my questions for you.

2318 This hearing has been quite interesting from a number of aspects. You point out you are the smallest television market in Canada and yesterday we heard from the radio licensee who has the only day-timer radio station in Canada. It's a radio station that, by regulation, is only allowed to operate between sunrise and sunset. So, we are pleased that you could come today.

2319 I don't know whether my fellow Commissioners have any questions.

2320 Commissioner Demers has a question for you.

2321 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Just a specific question. Are you a member of the CAB?

2322 MR. RITCHIE: Yes, we are.

2323 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Do you get any help from the CAB as to programming?

2324 MR. MICHALUK: Being isolated in Kenora, sometimes we feel a little left out of certain things, but the CAB has assisted us recently in a lot of discussions and questions we have had and we are going to utilize them a lot more in the future because the inroads have been made to talk to these people.

2325 In Kenora, we are fairly isolated and as a small station that's only a single stick, we are once again even smaller. There is not too many people who can get together. The program directors of stations like that can't get together because there is me, but we do try to spend time with smaller stations like ourselves. The CAB has been helping us and maybe we haven't utilized them as much as we can, but there were also points in time when certain things that they would do were distinctly set up for larger stations and larger groups.

2326 So, it was a little hard to work with them on that. But, yes, we are a member and they do assist us and we hope to get more assistance from them.

2327 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Thank you.

2328 Just one more point. Among the 15 small cable systems that you have in the region, which one is the biggest, except the one in Kenora maybe?

2329 MR. RITCHIE: Kenora is the largest with 4,000 customers. Our second largest is Sioux Lookout with 1,200 customers.

2330 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: And the smallest?

2331 MR. RITCHIE: Clearwater Bay with 15.

2332 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Are they linked together by some kind of a microwave?

2333 MR. RITCHIE: No, the distances are too great. We would love to be able to do that. We have explored it, but we are just in an area that won't allow that. Our average distance between systems is probably 100 to 300 kilometres between systems.

2334 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Thank you.

2335 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

2336 Our counsel, Mr. McCallum, has some questions for you.

2337 MR. McCALLUM: Thank you.

2338 Dealing with your undertaking to provide some materials by the 5th of July and your calculations on Canadian content, your calculations on Canadian content would deal with both the whole broadcasting day and also with the evening broadcast period. Correct?

2339 MR. MICHALUK: Correct.

2340 MR. McCALLUM: Secondly, what months would you be able to cover from your calculations?

2341 MR. MICHALUK: January through until the last week of August/September.

2342 MR. McCALLUM: This is for 1999 or 1998 or what?

2343 MR. MICHALUK: You wanted the schedules for the whole year?

2344 MR. McCALLUM: No, I am sorry. There are two separate things. The second one, which was just more recently done, deals with the programming schedule and I am assuming the programming schedule would start with September.

2345 MR. MICHALUK: Right, yes. That will start mid-September when it usually does. It depends on when the networks fire off their shows to us, but that blocking chart will be for September. Then the other ones I am providing that will verify our calculations, those schedules will be from January 4th, 1999 until September 4th, 1999.

2346 MR. McCALLUM: So, it will cover some months yet to be broadcast?

2347 MR. MICHALUK: Correct, but I have them laid out and we have those programs in place. If, for whatever reason, there is a Canadian program that does get bumped or is not available, then we will fill with other Canadian.

2348 MR. McCALLUM: Our preliminary results that we have for January and February from the logs that you have supplied to us show that for the broadcast day, for the month of January, you would be at 63.2 per cent, but for the evening broadcast period for January you would be at 45.6 per cent, quite a bit below the 50 per cent level. For February, our preliminary results show 62.8 per cent for the broadcast day, which again is over the 60 per cent, but for the evening broadcast period, 44.09 per cent, which is even more below the 50 per cent level.

2349 One of the things I think we would be interested in knowing is whether your figures match with our figures.

2350 MR. MICHALUK: I believe that our figures do for those two months. We started making changes in January to our schedules and we have continually made them in that there is more Canadian coming in the months that will follow and through the summer. So, the average from January 4th until the end of August will be at 64 per cent overall and 50 per cent prime.

2351 MR. McCALLUM: I see. So, you have added extra programming.

2352 MR. MICHALUK: Correct.

2353 MR. McCALLUM: I see. Would you be able, in your explanations, to sort of illustrate what has been added that would assist in bringing up the evening broadcast period numbers?

2354 MR. MICHALUK: Okay. We have moved -- oh, in our submissions?

2355 MR. McCALLUM: Or now, if you have it.

2356 MR. MICHALUK: One thing I can tell you is we used to play "Jeopardy" at a 6:30 time slot. We have moved that to a 5:00 o'clock time slot and we have moved in a Canadian cooking show called "What's for Dinner" at our 6:30 slot. So, there is another two and a half hours a week of Canadian programming there.

2357 We have added a new show to our market called "Cold Squad" replacing one of the U.S. shows that has gone on hiatus for the summer in prime time. So, that is another hour a week. Those are two specifics I can think of right off the top of my head. We have also added some shows at the 11:30 slot following the CTV News.

2358 MR. McCALLUM: I see. That sort of information, if you have any additional, would be of assistance to us, I think. I will let you note it down, if you like.

2359 MR. MICHALUK: Okay, thank you.

2360 MR. McCALLUM: I just want to come back on a couple of points that Commissioner McKendry asked you about. I didn't quite understand the answer fully.

2361 At the second page of your presentation, you explained under points a) and b) at the top that you have cut your programming budget by over 30 per cent in the last three years. One of your explanations, I think, is that monies were moved from the programming budget to administration and general, removed from one category to another. My question is: Does that fully explain the 30 per cent or are there other reasons for the cut?

2362 For example, when you cut the local programming from two and a half hours down to a half hour a week, would that account for some of that 30 per cent that you refer to?

2363 MR. RITCHIE: To your last statement, yes, it would. I am not sure if the issue that Mr. McKendry was bringing up with the general and administration numbers have a direct effect with what we are saying here. Darryl's budget for buying programs over the last three years -- we have looked at the numbers and the direct payment for those programs has dropped by 30 per cent, the way we have gotten this number. Like I say, there is some confusion over our reporting in the past and it tends to get confused in that one year in the way we reported it. We do know that that 30 per cent was an actual number that --

2364 MR. MICHALUK: Actual dollars spent on buying programming that comes from outside of the station. That is where we came up with this 30 per cent.

2365 MR. McCALLUM: Why is that? I usually think of costs as going up. Why have costs for programs gone done by 30 per cent?

2366 MR. MICHALUK: Because of having to cut costs at the station to stay in operation, to change the bottom line losses. So, one of the areas we looked at cutting was programming.

2367 MR. McCALLUM: So, you purchased less expensive programs. Is that what you are saying?

2368 MR. RITCHIE: Yes.

2369 MR. MICHALUK: And we made deals. Like we have been able to look into this blanket coverage with one of the distributors so that we didn't have to buy from seven or eight different sources to get the programming. We were able to commit X dollars fully to one group that would provide us with a lot more programming on average than what we could usually buy individually from suppliers. So, we were able to cut costs and we cut the costs to reduce our budget.

2370 MR. McCALLUM: Could you give any specific examples of where you might have cut costs?

2371 MR. MICHALUK: We used to pick up -- specifically shows? Is that what you are --

2372 MR. McCALLUM: If one comes to mind.

2373 MR. MICHALUK: Actually, one comes to mind quite quickly. We carried "The Pretender" one year and then we found that through our blanket coverage with the other distributor, we are able to fill that gap with a show from them. So, we are able to cut the costs of that specific episode or specific show for the year, which saved, for us, good size money.

2374 MR. McCALLUM: So, you replaced "The Pretender" with something less expensive. Is that what you are saying?

2375 MR. MICHALUK: Yes, it was less expensive to us. It wasn't less quality of a show is what I guess I am trying to say. In our blanket coverage, too, we are able to reduce cost because the afternoon dramas we used to pay on an individual basis per hour for the show, but then it came under our blanket coverage. So, we were able to cut our budget down because we didn't have to pay for that individually any more.

2376 MR. McCALLUM: Sorry, what is blanket coverage?

2377 MR. MICHALUK: Sorry. We pay a distributor who has Canadian rights to 20 different shows or 25 different shows, depending on how many he buys that year, we pay him a flat amount of $3,000 a month or $4,000 a month, whatever we negotiate, which, on average, is quite a bit less than when we have to buy individually from distributors who only own three or four shows. So, we pay them a blanket coverage where we are entitled to all their shows. Does that make sense?

2378 MR. McCALLUM: I see, and then you have some on an individual basis instead?

2379 MR. MICHALUK: Exactly.

2380 MR. McCALLUM: I see.

2381 Just on the next point on the same page where you say you reorganized and reduced your staffing levels, again I wanted to understand that a little bit more fully. From the annual returns that had been submitted, we show that the staff levels were at 12 staff and level between 1994 and 1998. Can you explain in what way and in how you reduced your staffing levels?

2382 MR. RITCHIE: If you look at what some of the people are doing within our station, they do a lot of jobs, as Darryl here. We have a number of people who do things on our Norcom Cablevision community channels. I believe at one time we certainly have had less staff. We did lay off at least one production person when we went from the news show on a daily basis to a weekly basis. In the meantime, we may have picked up a person now because we are doing more things on our community channel and doing more things on the whole as a company.

2383 Basically, we are probably doing more things. It's more of a reorganized than a reduced. We are doing more things with the staff we have without having to hire people. Whenever we have a new job that needs to be done, we throw a person in that is capable of doing it. Certainly this new traffic program that we are writing, it is our belief that once it's written, we will have time to reorganize again.

2384 Where right now we have sort of three people committed to programming and our traffic area, we will be able to reconfigure those people into other areas, at least maybe even half a body to other areas because of the time savings. It's such a manual thing we have to do with this program right now. It's, I guess, those kinds of things that has really defined this.

2385 MR. McCALLUM: So, bottom line, I can rely on the 12 that I see in the annual returns?

2386 MR. RITCHIE: Yes.

2387 MR. McCALLUM: Vis-à-vis the new traffic program, can you explain what you are doing and what that is?

2388 MR. MICHALUK: The traffic program that we have right now was built a long time ago. I have been there since 1981 and I think it came in place in 1982. It always ran not at 100 per cent, as far as the information that came out.

2389 What we have done for our program is we have taken all the information -- we have gotten the CRTC Regulations on what needs to be on a log and how the log needs to be sent and we have a computer programmer building a program for us on a PC-base. It will allow us to put in the key figure numbers right when we are doing our programming. Right now it's a manual input that we have to do when we write that particular line. So, it will add that.

2390 It will also leave a space for our C number to be added, which we don't even have room for right now and we are not doing. It will put it on there. It will provide a traffic program that will provide different types of logs for different areas, which I know probably every station in Canada already has and it's not new to them, but it's new to us.

2391 Basically, our log that is printed manually goes from the traffic area to master control and they fill out everything. Then that's what we send in. We only have the one log to do. We will be able to break it out into the logs that are needed in different areas.

2392 It is being built with everybody involved who needs to utilize the log, traffic, sales, billing and programming. We have input all our information and it is made to work together so that it will save time. A lot of our stuff is a manual input. With this new program, we will be able to do certain things that will automatically fill the day to save the manual input on each line.

2393 It's hard for me to describe the program that we have. It's very antiquated and if you make a mistake, you have to basically go into that program and if there are 57 lines in that program, you have to manually go to each line and change it to fix it. So, the new program will have everything that we need in it that will give the CRTC everything they need to read the logs correctly to judge our Canadian content and also to do our billing and stay in business.

2394 MR. McCALLUM: So, you are saying that this will assist you monitoring your Canadian content and it will be operational by the end of September. Is that correct?

2395 MR. MICHALUK: Correct. We are hoping -- we are not hoping. We know that we are going to have it on line maybe with not all the glitches out of it by the end of August, but we would like to run it for a month in line with the other program just so that we don't lose track of anything. Right now we have it at our station and we are just adding the new features that we need to do as everything comes up.

2396 MR. McCALLUM: Thank you very much.

2397 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. McCallum.

2398 Thank you very much. Those are our questions for you today. We appreciate you coming to appear before us.

2399 Mr. Cussons, perhaps you could call the next party.

2400 MR. CUSSONS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

2401 Our next application and, actually, the last appearing application for this particular hearing is by Community Focused Canadian Radio (Durham Region) for a broadcasting licence to carry on an English-language low-power (Type B) FM community radio programming undertaking at Oshawa, Ontario operating on a frequency of 88.3 megahertz (channel 202LP) with an effective radiated power of 40 watts to broadcast a variety of programs for the community.

2402 We have Ms Lynn Porteous joining us with her colleagues. Thank you.

2403 MS PORTEOUS: I would just like to submit to the Commission on my right here is Sharon Miller, who is standing in for Christine Kay and Lawrence Morrand, who, unfortunately, after receiving the invitation, have not been able to make it as they are in management positions and are faced with month-end obligations. Then further to my right is the Honourable Ivan Gross, MP for Oshawa Region.

2404 I would just like to submit there is a letter from Elder Engineering, which was requested by Industry Canada. I will just give you those now.

2405 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Ms Porteous, and welcome to you and your colleagues. Please proceed with your presentation.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

2406 MS PORTEOUS: Thank you.

2407 If you can forgive me, this humid, hot, sticky weather is not too kind to me and I do have a bit of a migraine coming on, but I will proceed as best I can.

2408 I would just like to state before getting started I have been extremely busy with this application process. I have recently started a new position as well while getting the application together and the CRTC has been very helpful in this process. I would just like to say I didn't have the typewritten speech and I felt that most of the information that was pertinent to the application had already been submitted.

2409 Briefly, I will just go on to say, as someone who has travelled across this vast and beautiful country, I have developed a deep love and respect for not only the countryside, but also my fellow countrymen and women. If there is anything I would like to change, it might be that the border, rather than being horizontal, could be vertical and allow me to spend winters without the high-cost of exchange in a summer climate like Florida. There are not many things that I admire about the States, but sunny weather in January is not one of them. In spite of this minor personal peeve, I am proud and grateful for our distinctive Canadian culture.

2410 I recall hearing of a time when the CRTC banned American films from displaying their flags and it was considered propaganda. Now, 40 years later, our Minister of Culture fights to protect Canadian magazines from being dominated by American advertisers. It is evident that whether horizontal or, ideally, vertical, there are still borders to defend, a Canadian culture to protect in light of progressive technologies. I strongly believe that community radio can help Canadians to maintain their heritage.

2411 However, in spite of borders, there are basic fundamental needs of all people regardless of their cultural, religious or socioeconomic backgrounds. At one point in my life I had an interest in becoming a psychologist and, through this interest, discovered a profound reality about people. In trying to decide which theory of psychology to pursue, I inadvertently stumbled across a common thread throughout all, one that I would like to share with you today.

2412 There are three things that all of us human beings require to maintain a healthy disposition: One, a need to belong, a sense of belonging to something larger than ourselves. That could be a family, a place of employment, a membership in a church or some other organization, a community;

2413 Two, the need for a sense of direction, the ability to establish goals and achieve dreams and, ideally, a sense of being able to effect change;

2414 Three, a sense of significance to be respected and appreciated. In today's world, people and their positions have become more and more individualized. Materially, we have more, but we have less and less time to share with one another. New technologies such as the Internet serve to remind us of our inherent need to communicate, to be heard and connect with each other. Hence, the old adage no man is an island still rings truth.

2415 Community Focused Canadian Radio may not be able to resolve all the ills of this country,, but it can provide a vehicle to travel beyond our own perspectives, share with one another and vicariously, through the reflections of other people's point of view, understand ourselves better. I and Community Radio may not be able to change borders, but it certainly can serve to enlarge them.

2416 Thank you.

2417 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Porteous. You mentioned that you were getting a headache. I am just wondering, would you prefer to take a short break before we begin the questioning or would you prefer that we go right to the questioning?

2418 MS PORTEOUS: I have taken a couple of Aspirin, so I am hoping to be on the mend soon. Thank you.

2419 THE CHAIRPERSON: I am going to ask Commissioner Cardozo then to ask you some questions.

2420 MR. McCALLUM: Excuse me, if I may, I have a presentation here from Sharon Miller. I was wondering if that is intended to be included as part of the main presentation.

2421 MS PORTEOUS: Yes, absolutely.

2422 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Did you want to speak to that now?

2423 MS MILLER: Yes.

2424 THE CHAIRPERSON: Please go ahead.

2425 MS MILLER: Thank you and good afternoon.

2426 I am very honoured to attend today's hearing and would like to thank the Members of the Panel for allowing me to speak on behalf of Community Focused Canadian Radio and also to represent my community. It gives me great pleasure to have this chance to express to you the support and enthusiasm that has been conveyed to me through discussions with a variety of diverse associations, some of which letters you have with our application.

2427 I am an artist who can see great benefits to myself personally in having a local community station. As a director involved with local associations, I have experienced an overwhelming amount of suggestions for a variety of broad-ranged programs.

2428 Community Radio would benefit myself by enabling me to not only promote my work and to appeal to a larger market, but also to give me a better opportunity to stay apprised of local events, exhibitions and contests. Community Radio can provide a very convenient and accessible service that I and members of the art community do not feel is presently being served by local stations.

2429 Art is an integral part of our Canadian heritage. One only needs to consider "The Group of Seven" or Robert Bateman to appreciate the wealth of talent and rich resources of creativity we have in this country, but, as an artist, I can also attest to the frustrations in receiving recognition for my work.

2430 As many in this field, I tend to be independent and at times isolated, which is a willing sacrifice to detail my creativity. However, at the same time, I am also dependent on my community to sustain myself. Community Radio works. It literally has something for everyone.

2431 In conclusion, if the profound interest I, members of the art community, local associations and individuals alike have confidently expressed by their contributions and motivations is indicative of our commitment to the success of Community Radio, then I can see no reason why this Commission should expect anything less.

2432 Thank you.

2433 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Miller.

2434 Does that conclude the presentations?

2435 MS PORTEOUS: I believe so, thank you.

2436 THE CHAIRPERSON: We will then have some questions from Commissioner Cardozo. If your headache doesn't abate and you would like to take a break during the questioning, just let us know and we will take a short break.

2437 MS PORTEOUS: I appreciate that. Thank you very much.

2438 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thanks, Mr. Chair.

2439 Welcome, Ms Porteous, Ms Miller and Mr. Gross.

2440 Let me just first clarify the pronunciation of your last name. Is it "Porteous" or "Porteous"?

2441 MS PORTEOUS: In fact both are right. My father had a brother and when they came from Scotland, my father changed his name to "Porteous" and the other brother remains "Porteous". So, either/or.

2442 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Which do you prefer? Could it go either way?

2443 MS PORTEOUS: I am accustomed to responding to either, but "Porteous" would be fine. Thank you.

2444 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay, I will try to stick to that one.

2445 I have noticed that you have been here a good part of today and I just want to assure you that this part of the agenda is a little different than the rest of the day. What we have had today, which is quite unusual, is five non-compliance items where we have brought in licensees to discuss non-compliance on specific conditions of licence and Regulations, which have been either given to us by Parliament or are Regulations of our own, and it's quite important to ensure that licensees live by those details so that the whole system, in a sense, remains stable.

2446 MS PORTEOUS: Right.

2447 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: This part of the item is a bit different. We are not quite wagging our finger at you, but I think it gives you a sense of the kind of detail that we need to talk about today, which is at the start of what could be a licensing process if you were licensed at the end of this, and gives you an idea why we go through some of the detail that we will be today.

2448 As the Chair has said, should, at any time, your headache get worse, let us know because I don't want to put you through a hard time, I just need to get as much information as we can for the record so that we can make the --

2449 MS PORTEOUS: And I will, at the same time, respect that and not try and use it as a convenience.

2450 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Let me start by asking you just to generally define how you define your service. I noticed in your supplementary brief a very impressive list of over 100 topics that you would be covering, everything from autism to entertainment, family law, relationships, renovating, wife assault and so forth. How would you define all of this in what you would like to present to the public?

2451 MS PORTEOUS: Well, how would I define this? Basically, these have been the suggestions of people that we have spoken to of different programming ideas that they would like to see and that has been a very informal research project basically talking with people and, through a course of time, coming up with those particular programs.

2452 I do believe as much as you try and get tied down in a proposal, radio tends to have a life of its own in that it is changing respective of what the public wants and again based on the volunteers. So, through our course of time in dealing with the associations, again these are some of the types of topics that they would like to see and that other individuals in our community would like to see that type of programming.

2453 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: How would you distinguish what you would provide from the services that currently serve the Durham market?

2454 MS PORTEOUS: Respective of radio specifically?

2455 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Yes.

2456 MS PORTEOUS: I don't think there is really any comparison. Of the two commercial stations that are in our area that really dominate the area, one is a country music station and the other one is a contemporary rock station.

2457 The essence of this is to provide the public access, that they will tell their own stories, that they will create their own programming. I think that gives people an ability to feel they can effect change. I think it makes people more responsible individuals to feel that they are part of their community.

2458 One of the things that we recognized very quickly in this was the fact that the station itself becomes the hub of the community and people of very diverse backgrounds come together. Different people of different professions, different socioeconomic conditions come together and I think that's what is very extraordinary. I think in today's busy times we have lost that town hall, so to speak, and I think radio can well serve the community in that fashion.

2459 To give you a bit of background which I have basically given in my letter previously is the fact that I have attended many radio and television interviews myself and I find that there is not a lot of -- I find the current commercial media, although it serves the purpose, is more conducive to making very -- a lot of the matters are very controversial and people get in there for just the angst of it.

2460 I find that community radio, although you are bringing different people and different opinions together -- and that is certainly only one component of programming -- I truly believe that there is resolve to differences and I think through communication, as I have said, we can enlarge and expand those borders that we have within ourselves and better understand one another. I think that was why our slogan was one of unity in the community, to break down some of these stereotypes that we see typically in current media.

2461 I think life is much more rich, much more interesting than often we see in a very superficial light as far as entertainment. This may have been my own personal ideas or perception of things. However, when this truly started to get under way, although people did not understand community radio per se, they certainly understood the idea of getting together and speaking easy and, if anything, our station, for the brief time we had it, was one of really just sitting in someone's living room or back yard and talking. I think that was a nice component. However, that would not be our -- the proposal itself would expand on many different types of programming and those have been proposed in the actual application itself.

2462 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Do you plan to do much music or is it mostly spoken word?

2463 MS PORTEOUS: The local musicians have been very, very supportive of this. They would like to see their work and I think that's important. There may be maybe just that person's family and a few members of their community that are interested in listening to their tune, but I think that speaks a multitude.

2464 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So, when it's music, it's going to be local musicians as opposed to --

2465 MS PORTEOUS: Not entirely. Not entirely, because I think you have to -- as people have stated before, I do believe that you cannot be so -- you don't want to become too alternative that you do not appeal to a broader market as well. I think that you have to have quality programming in order to sustain yourself financially, with public support. You want to have interesting programming as well.

2466 So, from the models that I have seen, I believe it is a balance of these things. It's a balance of having -- you know, there are certainly people that are going to come along that just have more of a disposition or are more predisposed to put on better entertainment as opposed to some people who want to just have a try at it. I think both should be able to express themselves. Getting back to music, I think, yes, there is a place for local artists, as well as more broad-ranged musical --

2467 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Do you have a sense of the balance of percentage that you would do music and the percentage you would do spoken-word programming?

2468 MS PORTEOUS: Yes. The musical component would be probably about 30 per cent, 30 to 40 per cent.

2469 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: In your application you talked ethnic programming. You haven't committed to a minimum level, but what are your plans so far in that area? Are you looking at programming in different languages?

2470 MS PORTEOUS: Absolutely. Oshawa is comprised of very diverse cultural backgrounds and again for the reasons I have already stated, I think we need to better understand different ethnic cultures that we share close living quarters with. I think we need to explore other people's points of view, so that is definitely something that I would like to expand on. There has been also interest expressed.

2471 Again in the short time we didn't cover as much as we would like to, but the Multicultural Council of Oshawa was one of our participants and also we had French programming everyday interviewing in French different associations, francophone associations, and certainly we would like to encourage that, and native as well.

2472 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: That brings up an interesting point because there are sort of two things that can be done. One is programming in specific languages, which, in the end, is only accessible to those people who speak those languages, and the other is programming in English, but either about or by those particular groups or involving them such that what you are talking about, increasing understanding and so forth, is accessible to everybody. Which do you see yourself doing? One is catering to the groups --

2473 MS PORTEOUS: I think both because I think certainly there are times that people really feel a familiarity and it's a nice feeling to speak in your own language and express yourself. We are a diverse country here, so there should be that entitlement as well, but I also think in order to expand perspectives for the general public it's equally important to have both.

2474 The reason that I did not want to commit was because of the hearing that I have been given liberty to watch. I don't want to commit and then fall short of the mark. I would rather go in and organize that and exceed the expectations of the Commission, as opposed to not reaching that.

2475 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: You are aware that if you wanted to get into programming in other languages, we have different categories of broadcasters and there would be certain limits that you could do other language programming in?

2476 MS PORTEOUS: Okay.

2477 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So, you would have to abide by those. In other words, you would have to come back for a condition of licence to ask for that.

2478 MS PORTEOUS: Sure. I will be honest. I am not an expert, but I am trying to learn as far as the policies and regulations. I am working closely with other associations. In fact at lunch we were invited to go to Kitchener's station. Because things happened very quickly with this whole situation, there was more to know than really was understood at the initiation.

2479 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: That's an interesting point because, as you know, there was a complaint about the programming you did back in the fall and it raises an important, tricky point, which is that when you are broadcasting, there is a whole bunch of regulations. Some people feel there are too many regulations, but whenever we talk to industry, it is usually, "Take the regulations off me and keep them on the other guy."

2480 So, as much as people say they don't want regulation, there are lots of reasons for it and lots of people who argue for certain types of regulation. So, we end up with a certain amount, which means there is a fair amount to know when running a station like this. I don't think we want to say to you, "You have to get a lawyer in order to run a station", but it's almost --

2481 MS PORTEOUS: Absolutely.

2482 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  -- a lawyer or a consultant or somebody who is expert in the area. It doesn't mean that you at all need to have such a person full time. Do you have an idea of how you would keep abreast?

2483 As I mentioned with the ethnic programming, if you want to do that, you have to make sure that they are within the regulations and the reason that exists is because there are other ethnic stations, you see, and in order to allow them to be viable, there is a certain limit on the others. So, there is a reason, we like to think a sensible reason, behind each one of these regulations.

2484 MS PORTEOUS: Sure

2485 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: How would you deal with that issue of keeping within --

2486 MS PORTEOUS: The guidelines.

2487 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  -- the regulations?

2488 MS PORTEOUS: We had three broadcasters that have years in the industry, not specific to community radio, but I think we have shown and proven some good potential here. I don't discount and I don't take lightly the fact that there were some contraventions. However, I think we are all an intelligent group of people that certainly can learn and learn quickly and hit the ground running, so to speak, when we do establish a full-time licensed station.

2489 There are different models. Each and every application we have heard today has been different, so you can't go and say, "That's what we would like to follow", nor really should we because our community is different. I think in closer allegiance with the CRTC -- the people have been very helpful and I don't want to be pulling on anyone's apron every time, but I think it's certainly good to ask rather than assume if there is some questionable area.

2490 However, we are working also with another person very much involved with community radio, who has offered for board members to go and spend a week's time on rotation, that we become not just -- because it's difficult to explain radio to somebody. You literally have to sit down and listen and get a feel for it and get a tone for it because sometimes it's just difficult to quote the definition of it.

2491 So, it's sometimes just sitting and listening and getting, like I said, a feel. There are some obvious things that you never do, but there are sometimes some grey areas there that I think you need to really explore and expand on, such as just what you have mentioned here. So, that would take some more time to really go through that and tailor that to meet the Commission's requirements.

2492 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Let me ask you a little bit about volunteers. I understand you had some 20 volunteers when you ran the station for a couple of weeks in the fall.

2493 MS PORTEOUS: Yes.

2494 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I have certainly had experience with volunteers and it's a wave thing that goes up and down. You can attract people and get them all fired up and get going and then two months down the road people have a lot of other commitments coming into their lives. Do you think you can sustain the volunteer base you need on a long-term basis?

2495 MS PORTEOUS: Yes. I think it's the systems that you initially establish. One of the difficulties -- in fact I am very grateful that the exemption period -- and my apologies that it was used, much to my chagrin, inappropriately, but I will say this. In the short time -- because again you have a concept of what you believe it is, but then it does take on a life of its own, and I think that it was a very good experience to have it start and then stop because we were able to really re-evaluate some of these areas specific to volunteers and how we handled them.

2496 We were very fortunate in that we have some very mature people who just really respected the objectives of community radio and really would do anything to help. So, that was not one of our problems. However, one of our problems was we had to let someone go because they were just creating difficulties, particularly with other volunteers. So, those instances do come along and you have to have systems in place that people are following.

2497 I think because there wasn't that system in place because it was new, rather than tell 20 people the same situation and catch them at different times, instead of having that established, I think it's very important at the onset to establish those things, that this is the tablet, these things are carved in stone, and this is the way that this station operates.

2498 I think, with that, people do not take their commitment lightly. They realize that this is a privilege, that this is an opportunity for them to be responsible to their community, and if they don't want that responsibility, then let's not play games. You are either in or you are out. You do it the way it's supposed to be done or you just don't do it at all.

2499 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So, do you think you can keep control of volunteers? I refer to the one instance where somebody had produced a flyer which said things that were beyond what you were required to do.

2500 MS PORTEOUS: Right, yes.

2501 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Can you keep that kind of thing under control?

2502 MS PORTEOUS: What happens is, because it's not something that people are well acquainted with, the idea of community radio, when they come in they have this commercial attitude sometimes. This particular person did. This was not in keeping with what we were trying to accomplish. If we wanted a commercial station, we would have applied for that. We don't want a commercial station.

2503 I think one of the areas that we realized that we could take remedial measures in is the fact that when the station came together, because there was no real defined tone to it or personality, people came in and they needed to amalgamate and assimilate, but it was just beginning to take a personality. At first, it was just this enmeshment and everyone trying to sort it out. Like I said, I think it is a very good thing that we were able to go off and reorganize in that fashion.

2504 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I guess you are saying that there would be training for the volunteers.

2505 MS PORTEOUS: Absolutely.

2506 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Who would be doing that?

2507 MS PORTEOUS: Initially, it will be the board and those persons who were involved with the initial broadcast because those people do have the experience now.

2508 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: The people who were involved in the station before?

2509 MS PORTEOUS: The initial -- yes.

2510 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: In the program index that you have in your supplementary brief, you have noted a program title and then a line about what it's about, organizations who would be involved in it. There is about maybe 25 pages.

2511 For example, you have -- let's just take the first one -- Adopt-a-pet and then you outline the organizations, The Durham Humane Society Animal Control and Adoption, Durham Animal Adoption. Is this your planning document or have you had a chance to talk to each one of these groups?

2512 MS PORTEOUS: Dependent upon the specific program, some have expressed and others are prospective. I do apologize because that document should have said "prospective". However, it's not a far reach to enable those people to want to do that. In fact the Humane Society did. This is why community radio does work, because literally it serves everybody's needs.

2513 The Canadian Mental Health was very supportive of us with the Trillium funding and said that there are a lot of misconceptions about mental health. We can see ourselves getting on air talking about depression, having people who have suffered with depression talk about it. So, they are better able to expand their services that people understand better what services are specifically for them, because although people might know that there is Canadian Mental Health, how does that break down for me.

2514 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Is it fair to say that some of these groups have been involved in settlings like that where they have talked about a topic on your radio station back in the fall?

2515 MS PORTEOUS: Absolutely.

2516 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I am reading the letters of support as well and there are people who talk about liking their experience that they had on your station to talk about issue X or Y.

2517 MS PORTEOUS: Yes, absolutely.

2518 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: The main source of revenue for the station is local advertising and then you have two blocks of fund-raising and membership.

2519 MS PORTEOUS: No. I would say most of our -- although there is an ability there to do that, I would like to see most of -- we don't want to be dominated by commercial interest. Again we are not a commercial station. Most of our funds will come from memberships, fund-raisers or fund-losers sometimes, and funding. I can basically say that there is, in all likelihood, in all probability, some funding that should be available to us.

2520 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Public funding?

2521 MS PORTEOUS: Yes.

2522 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: If we take year one, I won't go into a lot of detail, but you have indicated a total revenue of $72,000. Your estimate here of $50,000 would be local advertising, $12,000 from fund-raising activities and $10,000 memberships. That's not what you are saying now. Is it going to be different from this?

2523 MS PORTEOUS: Again as the application was in process, things have been changing because we have applied for funding. So, like I said, that will be adjusted to reflect that.

2524 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And likely the part that would be alleviated would be the local advertising then?

2525 MS PORTEOUS: That's right.

2526 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: But your total revenue would still need to be in the $72,000 range?

2527 MS PORTEOUS: Yes.

2528 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Do you have a sense that that public funding would be ongoing? Usually public funding isn't ongoing for very long.

2529 MS PORTEOUS: It's usually a three-year term, but I think at that point you are -- it's the first year and certainly that can go on to the first three years of establishing yourself and becoming more well known that people are more acquainted and more willing to support you, therefore. So, yes, it would be ongoing for us to get the roots and be a contingency. Not that I feel that we couldn't sustain ourselves without it, but it is a nice contingency to have access to.

2530 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Have you looked at sponsorships, which is slightly different than advertising --

2531 MS PORTEOUS: Yes.

2532 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  -- where companies or groups would sponsor a program, for example?

2533 MS PORTEOUS: Yes. There is definitely interest in that, but you have to also keep in mind, because of the associations, there can be some controversy there at times. They don't always want to be associated maybe with Bob's Hardware, for whatever reason. Some of them, because of their charitable status, have to maintain a certain amount of autonomy. So, that has to be taken in a case-by-case situation. However, certainly local businesses could sponsor the station itself per se.

2534 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: We have talked about volunteers. Let me ask you about the staff at the station. In a couple of different places you refer to a full-time station manager in the application. In response to a letter from CJKX dated 7th of June, 1999, you refer to the involvement of a full-time programming manager. Are these the same position and person or different ones?

2535 MS PORTEOUS: Different from previously?

2536 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: If you were to be licensed and once you get going, how many full-time staff do you see there being?

2537 MS PORTEOUS: Full-time staff would probably be two, anyway, two full-time staff.

2538 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Who would be what?

2539 MS PORTEOUS: Programming manager and a support staff person to do some organizing.

2540 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So, the programming manager would also be the station manager?

2541 MS PORTEOUS: Yes.

2542 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Will that person's duties be in touch with all the volunteers as well?

2543 MS PORTEOUS: Yes. It would be a shared responsibility between the support staff and the program manager and also the local volunteers because we do have a very large senior community and in fact there is a senior residential area very closely situated to our broadcast location and they have also expressed -- like I said, there are three of them from there that actually did a program on seniors and technology and they expressed an interest in continuing to do that sort of thing.

2544 So, it's easier to get seniors and retired persons specifically during the day. However, having said that, I could see us also working closely with the college and the high school students. people who wanted to just get their feet wet with broadcasting and co-op students. There is also a potential there to have them come in for a couple of days a week and help out.

2545 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Is there a communications or a journalism program at the college?

2546 MS PORTEOUS: Yes, there is.

2547 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Let me ask you about logger tapes, which is one of the issues we have been dealing with all day. Essentially, these are the tapes that you keep of everything that has been going on, the purpose basically being, at least one of the purposes, that if there is a complaint at any time, one needs to be able to go back to those tapes to see what was said or played. How do you plan to keep logger tapes?

2548 MS PORTEOUS: In fact we did use logger tapes for our 28-day broadcast and we did also keep a logger record and in fact were very conscientious. We were doing them down to the minute and it was extremely a lot of work, but once you get people in the habit, they can follow along. We used a VCR taping machine and it was an eight-hour tape that would go in first thing in the morning and then be changed. That person who was on that particular shift knew that they were responsible to change that tape.

2549 I am fairly technically astute. In light of the fact that I had never played a CD prior to our broadcast term, by the end of it, having blown a few speakers, later I was able to -- the techie guys would come in and I would say, "No, no, don't touch that wire. This one has to go onto that one." So, I think all things can be understood.

2550 I would like to see us move into a computerized system and have done some research in that as well. I think it would be nice just to know that you are never going to have that problem of not having that time covered. So, to have it right on the hard drive I think would be most advantageous.

2551 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Do you have the equipment for that?

2552 MS PORTEOUS: No, but that would be one of our first things on a budget.

2553 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: To have a computerized system of keeping logger tapes?

2554 MS PORTEOUS: Yes, definitely.

2555 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Rather than the eight-hour tapes?

2556 MS PORTEOUS: The eight-hour tapes could possibly serve some purpose. What, at this point, I don't know, but I think ideally -- I don't fully understand the technology, but it is there. I know that -- actually, no, the Peterborough station doesn't use that, but the fellow from Kitchener did mention that they do have that and I could see that as being the most easiest way.

2557 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: You have had experience with program logs, which are the written form?

2558 MS PORTEOUS: Yes.

2559 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Who would be doing that?

2560 MS PORTEOUS: Each and every volunteer would be doing that.

2561 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And then the program manager would be compiling it?

2562 MS PORTEOUS: Would be reviewing it, yes.

2563 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: How about the music list, which usually means a week's worth of musical selections broadcast between 6:00 and midnight. These are requested by the Commission from time to time and they also include the need to identify the Canadian music that is played. So, using the MAPL Legend, you would indicate which ones are Canadian. How would you go about doing that? What source would you use to identify the MAPL information?

2564 MS PORTEOUS: I just, a couple of weeks ago, met with a gentleman from the States who has worked on some technology and he has a very good reputation in the broadcast industry. He has worked on a new software project which in fact would address that issue. It sounds to me similar to this, I think it was called, Server or Searcher or something like that from Kitchener, but this is called Web Jockey. It provides a similar feature to that. So, you can have that system of pulling up and then you know exactly what music has been played as well because you would have a diarized printout as well.

2565 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: What system would you be using, though, to identify -- because you have a certain amount of Canadian music that you have to play, Canadian content, how would you identify which ones are Canadian?

2566 MS PORTEOUS: Through either of those resources that you have mentioned. Some people are accustomed to listening to American music, but I think also there is a vast amount of high-quality Canadian music. I think that there is enough representation of American artists in Canada and I personally would like to see more Canadian music, but I did not want to submit in the proposal that it would be all Canadian because again you don't want to set yourself up and limit yourself. We definitely would lean more towards Canadian musicians.

2567 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: One of the things you would be required to do is to play at least 35 per cent Canadian and that is defined by what we call a MAPL system, which is M-A-P-L, the Musician Artist Production and Lyrics. In a sense, it is made-in-Canada music is what we are looking at. There are directories that indicate that. On the CD it is often indicated if it is a MAPL-certified song or CD. Are you aware of that type of system?

2568 MS PORTEOUS: Not as of earlier today, but again we are willing to work with the Commission. Like I said, the application to this point we have submitted to the best of our knowledge, but the fine details of that we will not -- like I understand we would have up to a year to go on air and this would be very much ironing out those fine details. Yes, we do wish to work within the legislative policies, so that wouldn't be a problem and, like I said, as previously stated, Canadian content is definitely our highlight.

2569 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I have a couple more technical questions that deal with the transmission issues. A low-power FM station, which is what you are applying for, are considered as secondary undertakings and, as such, are not entitled to protection by regular class stations; namely, classes A1, A, B, C1 and C, which are not low-power stations, essentially.

2570 MS PORTEOUS: Right.

2571 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Are you aware of that? Essentially, if another one came along, it could bump you.

2572 MS PORTEOUS: We are last man on the totem pole, yes. I am apprised of that, yes.

2573 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: In the event that the Commission approved this application and interference attributed to your transmitter is proven to be caused to the CIRV-FM station in Toronto, which is a Class B operation, are you aware that under Industry Canada's technical regulations, you will be responsible for resolving the problem and assuming all the reasonable costs arising from such a change?

2574 MS PORTEOUS: I met with the management of CIRV and they had permitted us to, I guess, impinge upon their broadcast pattern and we have heard from Elder Engineering, who is working on behalf of CKDX in Richmond Hill, and they have also allowed clearance on their bandwidth.

2575 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Those cover the questions I had for you. My colleagues or counsel may have more questions, but let me just ask you if you have anything else you would like to say covering the issues we have talked about.

2576 MS PORTEOUS: No, I think they are all very good questions and I think they are definitely areas that we have already considered. Thank you.

2577 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you very much.

2578 Thank you, Mr. Chair.

2579 THE CHAIRPERSON: I think our counsel, Peter McCallum, has some questions for you.

2580 MR. McCALLUM: Thank you, just a few questions, if I may.

2581 First of all, I wondered if Mr. Gross had any comments to offer into the record about this application.

2582 MR. GROSS: Yes, thank you very much.

2583 It's a terrible way to start, but I must admit right off the bat that I am not honourable. Ms Porteous mentioned that I was honourable. I am not a member of the Cabinet and if I were, of course, I wouldn't be here.

2584 I cannot attest as to the ability of the applicants to carry on the obligations of a station. That is beyond my ability and that is a decision you are going to have to make. I can certainly attest to their sincerity. I read the application, most of which I understood, some of it I didn't, I am not familiar with radio, but I was surprised and pleased with the people who had supported their application. I can personally vouch for 95 per cent of them. I know them and they don't always all agree with me, but in this case we are of one mind because I do support the application.

2585 I think mainly due to the proximity of our city to Toronto, we are often considered -- in fact we are -- part of the Toronto market. We need something of our own, some community system such as this station. I know it's terribly hard for me to get local public information out. I am not faulting our present radio stations or our present media, it's just that again they are in the Toronto orbit and we need something of our own.

2586 Other than that, I don't have anything to say, except that I do support the application and I would ask you to give it favourable consideration. Thank you.

2587 I can answer anything else you would like to ask me.

2588 MR. McCALLUM: Thank you very much.

2589 I have some more specific questions for Ms Porteous, if that's all right.

2590 MS PORTEOUS: Sure.

2591 MR. McCALLUM: Ms Porteous, at the beginning of the presentation today you attached to the letter from Mr. Elder a couple of other things, I think an explanation for the two people that couldn't attend.

2592 MS PORTEOUS: Yes, that's correct.

2593 MR. McCALLUM: There is also a Schedule A, List of Broadcast Participants.

2594 MS PORTEOUS: Yes.

2595 MR. McCALLUM: Can you explain what that is, please?

2596 MS PORTEOUS: That is a list of all of the associations that have participated with us in the 28-day broadcast.

2597 MR. McCALLUM: Are you foreseeing that these organizations will participate with you if you are granted the licence?

2598 MS PORTEOUS: I think, gauging by the letters of support. We have had ongoing relationships with many of these associations. I wouldn't say all of them because often in non-profit organizations boards of directors do change, but I can very safely say that all of these associations and also in the guest book that was signed, all of them confidently expressed that they want this, they really want this.

2599 Everybody was very elated to participate and it was very exciting. It wasn't something you had to sell to people because right away they realized the benefit to themselves. This was giving them access to promote their association.

2600 Personally, I consider myself fairly well educated and experienced, but I certainly learned a lot in that short duration of time about services and resources that are in our community that I was totally unaware of.

2601 MR. McCALLUM: Thank you.

2602 I take it, of course, if you were granted this licence -- you referred to a one-year implementation time. If you were granted this licence, you would accept that as a condition of licence? That is standard and I assume the answer to that is "yes".

2603 MS PORTEOUS: Yes, absolutely.

2604 MR. McCALLUM: In answering a question of Commissioner Cardozo, there was discussion of volunteers and I think what you said is that you would put some control systems in place to make sure that they do the right thing, follow the regulations, follow the policies, et cetera. Do you have in mind any specific control systems, even training systems, to ensure that?

2605 MS PORTEOUS: Absolutely, yes. I think it's imperative in the systems that are set up at the onset. Once the systems are established and it is expected of the volunteers to adhere to the system, then it is very easy to implement and maintain new systems. This was one of the problems that we experienced and it certainly did not make life very easy for me because this system was not in place.

2606 It was to a degree, but it was not -- I quickly realized how important that was. That's why I am saying that once the system is there, then everybody has to adopt that system and commit to it because when the system runs smoothly, everything runs smoothly. You are not in front of the Commission. This is just the way things have to be.

2607 MR. McCALLUM: Who would help you design those systems, for example?

2608 MS PORTEOUS: Again it's all research and I think looking at different community radio stations I have been able to get some of the resources from Trent and some of their policies and what the actual -- there are some people that are operating assistants. I think they are people that are at the station in a supportive role, but not necessarily programming, and then there are certain rules for those hosts. It depends in which aspect the volunteer has to adhere to any different aspect of radio.

2609 So, you have commitment. You have time scheduling, people being there on time. You also have issues of conduct. All of these things -- it's a very broad-ranged area, but there has to be training involved in that. We would have a training program for somebody and then they are also, after that training program, mentored by an existing radio host.

2610 MR. McCALLUM: I take it then you would guide yourself according to the systems in place at Trent University?

2611 MS PORTEOUS: No. I wouldn't say that, no. It's not just that because we are not Trent University. As a university, for one thing, it's a campus station, so, no, we could not adopt all of their policies. However, they have some very good ideas and I see no need to re-invent the wheel when some people have some very good policies in place. I would say at this time that it is not conclusive at this point because there may be things we would like to add to that. So, I could see other areas that we would like to adopt policies that would work quite effectively for us.

2612 MR. McCALLUM: I see. So, you would adapt those. That's what you are saying?

2613 MS PORTEOUS: Right.

2614 MR. McCALLUM: I think you may be aware that the Commission has issued a proposed policy for community radio and in that policy it is proposing to increase the Canadian content level for category 2 music from 30 to 35 per cent and also the Canadian content level for category 3 music from 10 to 12 per cent. If these policies are adopted and, of course, if you get the licence, you understand that you would be expected to adhere to these new levels. Is that correct?

2615 MS PORTEOUS: Absolutely.

2616 MR. McCALLUM: And that would be your commitment, of course?

2617 MS PORTEOUS: Absolutely.

2618 MR. McCALLUM: I take it in respect of the funding that you have applied for, you haven't received any response back yet?

2619 MS PORTEOUS: That is correct.

2620 MR. McCALLUM: Do you have any indication as to when you might get a response?

2621 MS PORTEOUS: I have indication that we have been accepted by a local panel and that we are in the secondary stages now of having that approved.

2622 MR. McCALLUM: Thank you.

2623 Thank you, Mr. Chair.

2624 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. McCallum.

2625 Thank you for your appearance here today. We appreciate it. Have a good trip back.

2626 MS PORTEOUS: Thank you.

2627 MR. CUSSONS: Mr. Chairman, if I could just interject for one second, I just wanted to mention that we had received an intervention in support of your application, Ms Porteous, from a Ms Darlene Scott and she had indicated that she would be here today to express her support in person. Obviously, that was not possible, but I just wanted to assure you that her intervention will remain on the record and be taken into account in our deliberations.

2628 I guess on this subject I wondered if you wanted a last opportunity to address any of the interventions that were received.

2629 MS PORTEOUS: We did receive a negative intervention and again I think that was just really growing pains, but I do not undermine that intervention. In hindsight, which is always 20/20, I think it was unfortunate and caused me a lot of extra stress that, on top of the application process, was very difficult to deal with. However, I think failure is often steps to success and I think nothing can't be understood and that we can address those issues and move forward and be something that the CRTC and Canadians can be proud of in the future.

2630 Thank you.

2631 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Again thank you for appearing here today.

2632 That brings, I think, our hearing to a conclusion. Before we adjourn, I would like to thank the court reporter and the translators for their assistance and, in particular, I would like to thank our counsel and Secretary and the other staff from the Commission that have contributed to this hearing. Again thank you to all those who have participated as well.

2633 We stand adjourned.

--- Whereupon the hearing concluded at 1556/

L'audience se termine à 1556