ARCHIVED -  Transcript

This page has been archived on the Web

Information identified as archived is provided for reference, research or recordkeeping purposes. It is not subject to the Government of Canada Web Standards and has not been altered or updated since it was archived. Please contact us to request a format other than those available.

Providing Content in Canada's Official Languages

Please note that the Official Languages Act requires that government publications be available in both official languages.

In order to meet some of the requirements under this Act, the Commission's transcripts will therefore be bilingual as to their covers, the listing of CRTC members and staff attending the hearings, and the table of contents.

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded verbatim transcript and, as such, is transcribed in either of the official languages, depending on the language spoken by the participant at the hearing.



                       SUBJECT / SUJET:

                  SOCIÉTÉ RADIO-CANADA (SRC)

HELD AT:                                TENUE À:

Hilton Windsor Hotel                    Hôtel Hilton Windsor
Erie Room                               Salle Erie
277 Riverside Drive W.                  277 Prom. Riverside O.
Windsor, Ontario                        Windsor (Ontario)

March 18, 1999                          Le 18 mars 1999

tel: 613-521-0703         StenoTran         fax: 613-521-7668


In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages
Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be
bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members
and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded
verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in
either of the official languages, depending on the language
spoken by the participant at the public hearing.


Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues
officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront
bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des
membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience
publique ainsi que la table des matières.

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu
textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée
et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues
officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le
participant à l'audience publique.


                 Canadian Radio-television and
                 Telecommunications Commission

              Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des
                télécommunications canadiennes

                  Transcript / Transcription

              Public Hearing / Audience publique

                  SOCIÉTÉ RADIO-CANADA (SRC)


Joan Pennefather                        Chairperson / Présidente
                                        Commissioner / Conseillère


David Rhéaume                           Secretary / Secrétaire
                                        Commission Counsel /
                                        Avocat du Conseil

HELD AT:                                TENUE À:

Hilton Windsor Hotel                    Hôtel Hilton Windsor
Erie Room                               Salle Erie
277 Riverside Drive W.                  277 Prom. Riverside O.
Windsor, Ontario                        Windsor (Ontario)

March 18, 1999                          Le 18 mars 1999





Presentation by / Présentation par:

Ms Margaret Dudley                                           8

Mr. Fred Plexman                                            12

Ms Priscilla Connelly                                       14

Mr. Bruce Crozier                                           17

Mr. Nick Carlan                                             22

Mr. Paul Poirier McIntyre                                   27

Ms Margaret Williams                                        36

Mr. Réne Jacques and Mr. Ken Koekstat                       44

Mr. Bruck Easton                                            49

Mr. Bill Horne                                              57

Mme Mireille Whissell                                       63

Ms Marguerite Villamizar                                    71

Ms Pat Malicki                                              80

Mr. George Crowell                                          87

Mr. Richard Langs                                           94

Mr. Fred Plexman, continued                                 98

Reply by / Réplique par:

Mr. Bruce Taylor                                            99

Presentation by / Présentation par:

Mme Mina Grossman-Iani                                     101

Ms Susan Haig                                              112

Mr. David Palmer                                           122





Reply by / Réplique par:

Mr. Bruce Taylor                                           126

Presentation by / Présentation par:

Ms Antonia Dominato                                        127

Ms Jane Cacciavillani                                      140

Mme Nicole Germain                                         143

Ms Sarah Trusty and Ms Arlene Traynor                      154

Ms Angie Chang, Mr. John Chan and Mr. Emil Nakhle          160

Mr. Paul Rousseau                                          165

Mr. Peter Wilkinson and Ms Kathy McCrone                   172

Mr. Howard Pawley                                          183

Mr. Jonathan Sachs                                         192

Ms Sandra Pupatello                                        195

Mr. Roland Marentette                                      202

Ms JoAnne Merritt                                          206

Mr. Paul Hartel                                            213

Ms Nora McLaren                                            219

Ms. Kerri Kavanaugh, Ms Summer Turnbull                    223
   and Ernest Chaisson

Mr. Nicholas Shields                                       228

Reply by / Réplique par:

Mr. Taylor                                                 230





Presentation by / Présentation par:

Mr. Corey Tomkimson                                        233

Reply by / Réplique par:

Mr. Taylor                                                 239



 1                         Windsor, Ontario / Windsor (Ontario)
 2     --- Upon commencing on Thursday, March 18, 1999
 3        at 1300 / L'audience commence le jeudi
 4        18 mars 1999 à 1300
 5  1                    THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good afternoon,
 6     ladies and gentlemen.  My name is Joan Pennefather. 
 7     I'm a Commissioner with the CRTC.  I would like to
 8     welcome you to this public consultation on the CBC.
 9  2                    Thanks to the interests in this
10     community, my colleague Barbara Cram is in the other
11     room receiving an equal number of people this afternoon
12     and this evening, and we thank you for your
13     co-operation.
14  3                    As you know --
15     --- Off microphone / Sans microphone
16  4                    THE CHAIRPERSON:  Sorry?
17     --- Off microphone / Sans microphone
18  5                    THE CHAIRPERSON:  That's why I did
19     the test.
20  6                    Where is our technician?  Is he
21     behind me?  Okay.  I'm notorious for the voice
22     dropping, so thank you for telling me.
23  7                    Should I repeat or did we get the
24     gist of it?
25     --- Off microphone / Sans microphone


 1  8                    THE CHAIRPERSON:  Repeat?
 2  9                    As I was saying we have such an
 3     expression of interest on this public consultation in
 4     Windsor that we have separated it into two rooms.  My
 5     colleague Barbara Cram who is also a Commissioner is
 6     hearing an equal group of people this afternoon and
 7     this evening in the room adjacent to us.
 8  10                   My name is Joan Pennefather.
 9  11                   We are here to gather your views and
10     comments on CBC radio and television.
11  12                   In your opinion, how should the
12     Canadian Broadcasting Corporation fulfil its role in
13     the coming years?
14  13                   The CBC is a national public service,
15     broadcasting in English as well as in French.  It plays
16     an important role in the Canadian Broadcasting system.
17  14                   Today, many elements are constantly
18     being added to the broadcasting system as new
19     technologies multiply, converge, open up new horizons
20     and increasingly offer new services.  In this context,
21     we want to know what are your needs and expectations as
22     viewers and listeners of the CBC.
23  15                   Nous sommes ici pour recueillir vos
24     points de vue et vos commentaires sur la radio et la
25     télévision de Radio-Canada.  Comment croyez-vous que


 1     Radio-Canada devrait remplir son rôle dans les années à
 2     venir?  Voilà le genre de questions auxquelles nous
 3     voulons entendre vos réponses.
 4  16                   Il est très important pour le Conseil
 5     d'entendre ce que vous avez à dire à ce sujet.  Il ne
 6     faut pas oublier que le CRTC est un organisme public au
 7     service des citoyens et citoyennes.  À ce titre, il a
 8     une responsabilité envers eux.  C'est pourquoi mes
 9     collègues-conseillers et moi-même trouvons essentiel de
10     venir vous rencontrer.
11  17                   Nous sommes donc présents dans onze
12     villes canadiennes du 9 au 18 mars inclusivement pour
13     tenir cette série de consultations régionales d'un bout
14     à l'autre du pays.
15  18                   As I just said, it is very important
16     that the Commission hears what you have to say.  We
17     must not lose sight of the fact that the CRTC is a
18     public organization that serves Canadian citizens.  In
19     this capacity, we are responsible to you.  This is why
20     my fellow Commissioners and myself find it vital to
21     come and meet with you to discuss these issues and why
22     we are holding this series of regional consultations,
23     from one end of the country to the other, in
24     11 Canadian cities, from March 9 to March 18 inclusive.
25  19                   These consultations are designed to


 1     give you a chance, on the eve of the new millennium, to
 2     express your opinion on the CBC's role, the programming
 3     it offers and the direction it should take at the
 4     national, regional and local levels.
 5  20                   Through these consultations we hope
 6     to enter into an open dialogue with you and to hear
 7     your concerns.  Your comments today will form part of
 8     the public record which will be added to the record of
 9     the public hearing on the CBC that will begin in Hull
10     next May 25th.
11  21                   At this upcoming hearing in May, the
12     Commission will examine the CBC's application for the
13     renewal of its licences including radio, television and
14     its speciality services, Newsworld and Réseau de
15     l'information.  You can also take part in that public
16     hearing by sending your written comments to the CRTC. 
17     If you wish to do so, please remember to refer to the
18     specific licence renewals being examined when you file
19     your comments.
20  22                   Tous vos commentaires feront partie
21     du dossier public.  Il sera lui-même ajouté à celui de
22     l'audience publique qui s'ouvrira à Hull le 25 mai
23     prochain.  C'est au cours de cette audience que le
24     Conseil étudiera les demandes pour renouveler les
25     licences de radio et de télévision de Radio-Canada


 1     ainsi que de ses services spécialisés.
 2  23                   Vous pouvez aussi participer à cette
 3     audience en faisant parvenir une intervention écrite au
 4     CRTC.  Vos observations devront alors porter
 5     spécifiquement sur le renouvellement des licences en
 6     question.
 7  24                   Now I would like to come to today's
 8     consultations.
 9  25                   As I said at the opening of my
10     remarks, we are in two separate rooms sitting this
11     afternoon until 5:00 or until we hear everyone on the
12     list for this afternoon, and again this evening from
13     6:00 until 10:00.
14  26                   I would like to introduce the CRTC
15     staff with me here today.  Donald Rhéaume is our legal
16     counsel.  Rod Lahay is with my colleague, Madam Cram,
17     in the adjoining room.  Please feel free to call on
18     them with any questions you might have about the
19     process today or any other matter.
20  27                   So that everyone will have an
21     opportunity to speak, we ask that you please limit your
22     comments to 10 minutes.
23  28                   As these consultations are a forum
24     designed especially for you, and we want to listen to
25     as many participants as possible, we will not ask any


 1     questions unless we need clarification.
 2  29                   Pour que vous ayez tous l'occasion de
 3     vous faire entendre, nous vous demandons de limiter
 4     votre présentation à 10 minutes.  Ces consultations
 5     sont votre tribune à vous et nous voulons être à
 6     l'écoute du plus grand nombre possible d'intervenants. 
 7     Nous ne poserons donc pas de questions, sauf si nous
 8     avons besoin de clarification.
 9  30                   Après vos interventions, les
10     représentants des stations locales de Radio-Canada
11     auront également droit de parole puisque ce sont les
12     premières intéressées par les questions que nous
13     abordons aujourd'hui.
14  31                   Ladies and gentlemen, at the end of
15     the session, representatives from the local CBC
16     stations will have a chance to offer their views as
17     they are naturally very interested in the issues we are
18     discussing here today.
19  32                   Before we start, I would like to turn
20     to legal counsel to go over some housekeeping matters,
21     including how we are going to organize so that I don't
22     spend the entire afternoon with my back to all these
23     fine people behind me here.  It's a little awkward, but
24     I'm sure we will manage.
25  33                   MR. RHÉAUME:  Thank you, Madam Chair.


 1  34                   We will be calling presenters in
 2     groups of 10, so we invite you to join us at the table
 3     and identify yourself for the record.
 4  35                   Make sure you are in the right room
 5     because, as discussed, there are two venues.  We have a
 6     CRTC staff table and a CRTC member just outside here
 7     who is going to point you in the right direction.
 8  36                   So our first group, we are going to
 9     start with:  Nataley Nagy, Marguerite Dudley, Margaret
10     Williams, Fred Plexman, Bruck Easton, Priscilla
11     Connolly, Bruce Crozier, Ken Koekstat, Nick Carlan,
12     Paul Poirier McIntyre.
13  37                   THE CHAIRPERSON:  Could everyone who
14     was named come to the table right away and then we can
15     just go from one participant to the next in this first
16     group of 10 and then probably take a break at that
17     point.  Anywhere at the table.
18  38                   MR. RHÉAUME:  Could you kindly
19     identify yourself for the record, starting with
20     Nataley Nagy.
21  39                   UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:  She is not
22     here.
23  40                   MR. RHÉAUME:  She is not here.  Could
24     she be in the next room?  Well, we will come back to
25     Nataley Nagy.


 1  41                   Marguerite Dudley.
 2  42                   MS DUDLEY:  Margaret Dudley.
 3  43                   MR. RHÉAUME:  Margaret Dudley.  I'm
 4     sorry.
 5  44                   THE CHAIRPERSON:  You can start any
 6     time you are ready.
 7  45                   MS DUDLEY:  Okay.
 8  46                   THE CHAIRPERSON:  And if you would
 9     push the little button on your microphone.
11  47                   MS DUDLEY:  I'm an avid listener/
12     watcher.  I don't come from any institutional
13     background, but I am moved, just as the fellow in the
14     MacLean's article said, that this is a grassroots
15     appeal and it's really interesting seeing this
16     yesterday in the MacLean's Magazine.
17  48                   What I wanted to point out is how I
18     felt about CBC.  Okay?
19  49                   I want to use the analogy of eye
20     glasses.  Up until about a few years ago I used to wear
21     very thick lenses, very thick, and I used to see the
22     world in a very clear way, from the inside out.  But
23     when people looked at me through my glasses, they saw
24     lots of little facets of glass and very often they
25     didn't see the real me from that.


 1  50                   Looking at the CBC, from me looking
 2     out, it's very clear what the CBC does for me.  But
 3     perhaps you people looking in are looking at all the
 4     little facets and perhaps I can express my clear view
 5     of the CBC.
 6  51                   I was called "four eyes" when I was
 7     younger because of my glasses, and I'm using that as a
 8     way to go about pointing out the aspects of CBC.  Four
 9     "I"s:  "I" for independence, "I" for identity, "I" for
10     immediacy, and "I" for international image.
11  52                   The first one "independence".  I have
12     to stress that the CBC must remain in the public
13     domain.  It is a value for its objectivity to avoid
14     privatization.  I really believe that we have to avoid
15     the hidden agendas of multinational corporations or
16     individual media moguls.  I think that the CBC has to
17     remain independent from political influence, at the
18     national level and, simultaneously, independent at the
19     local level so that we can relate the big picture to
20     our own community in a very objective way.
21  53                   Which gets me to the second "I",
22     which is "identity".
23  54                   Essex County is an appendage of
24     Canada.  It is the southern most tip.  A lot of people
25     refer to it in many different ways, some of them a


 1     little bit negative, but I like to think of us as
 2     jutting right into the heart of the northeastern
 3     industrialized United States.  Because of that, being
 4     so -- jutting into a very alien area -- we are
 5     surrounded on three sides by media.  It's like a
 6     hurricane.  Sometimes there are radio stations blasting
 7     at us from all sides.  The CBC is like the eye of the
 8     storm.
 9  55                   For us in Essex County, the CBC gives
10     us the view to the rest of Canada because we only have
11     a certain view.  Nearsighted people will look north and
12     see the Detroit skyline and nearsighted people will not
13     look farther north to the rest of Canada, our family. 
14     This is why the CBC has to do that for us.  It's
15     important that the Windsor CBC station be a window for
16     us to the world, our neighbours to the south, and it is
17     also a window to our own Canadian family.
18  56                   And that comes back to something
19     else, because there are some days that I don't want to
20     look at all the facets of Canadian society.  I don't
21     have that time.  I want to be able to wake up in the
22     morning, get the traffic and get the weather, and I
23     want an immediate response from CBC.  That immediacy is
24     necessary at the local level.
25  57                   I don't want to listen to all the


 1     weather reports from Quinte, Northumberland, whatever,
 2     as is what is happening now with this strike that is
 3     going on.  I want to know exactly what is happening
 4     today.  If there is a meningitis epidemic in a
 5     neighbouring town, I want the information now,
 6     immediately on CBC.  I don't want to listen to a whole
 7     myriad of aspects from Toronto.  We must have local
 8     broadcasts and it has to be integrated, radio and TV. 
 9     I believe our station here is doing that very well.
10  58                   The fourth "I" is international
11     image.  I had a colleague, a friend of mine, who
12     lectured throughout North America.  She always told me
13     that she made a point, when she was in this listening
14     area, to listen to As It Happens because she valued the
15     kind of coverage, that international image to the
16     world, the window to the world that a lot of American
17     stations didn't have.
18  59                   CBC has excellence.  There is
19     international image with David Suzuki, Peter Gzowski. 
20     These are the people that if they were in another
21     country, and you know which, they would be exalted. 
22     They would be given much more status, much more money
23     for the value that they do.  They are the undersung
24     heroes of CBC.
25  60                   As a final thought, there is another


 1     "I", and that is "integration".  I really believe that
 2     in order for us to go into the new millennium, there is
 3     going to have to be integration of radio, TV,
 4     Radio-Canada and English Canada in order for us to go
 5     into the next millennium.  The CBC plays a strong and
 6     important role in that.
 7  61                   Thank you.
 8  62                   THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 9     much, Ms Dudley.
10  63                   We will go on to our next
11     participant.
12  64                   MR. RHÉAUME:  Margaret Williams.  Is
13     Margaret Williams in the room?  We will come back
14     later.
15  65                   Mr. Fred Plexman.
17  66                   MR. PLEXMAN:  Good afternoon.
18  67                   My name is Fred Plexman.  I'm here to
19     speak as an individual.  I am not associated with any
20     group.
21  68                   My topknot may not be quite as long
22     as yours because I have just written down some very
23     short notes.
24  69                   CBC radio has been very important in
25     my life.  I have been listening to these stations in


 1     one way or another since I was a child growing up in
 2     Sudbury.  It is more important to me now than it ever
 3     has been, seeing as it is the only station in this area
 4     that we do not get bombarded with U.S. news.
 5  70                   It's important that we have this
 6     Canadian presence.  In fact, we do hear comments
 7     periodically that the Americans listen to CBC because
 8     it is a good station.  This keeps me in touch with
 9     Canadian news, local, regional and national.  We also
10     get international coverage, which I don't believe is as
11     biased as we get from other areas.
12  71                   It's unfortunate the present strike
13     is cutting some of the coverage we get.  I do miss the
14     5:30 CBC evening news on the television station.  It is
15     the one thing that I regularly watch on CBC TV.
16  72                   When my wife and I travel up to our
17     camp north of Sudbury, we turn on the radio and we
18     switch from station to station to keep CBC on the
19     radio.  It's important to us we don't miss the
20     programming we like.  It is continuous.  We can pick it
21     up across the country.  When we do get to the camp, the
22     radio is tuned to the Sudbury CBC stations so we don't
23     miss the programs we normally listen to.
24  73                   Thank you.
25  74                   THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,


 1     Mr. Plexman.  We appreciate your being here.  We were
 2     just in Sudbury the other day so we are following --
 3  75                   MR. PLEXMAN:  I have heard something
 4     about this.
 5  76                   THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good.
 6  77                   We will go on to our next
 7     participant.
 8  78                   MR. RHÉAUME:  Mr. Bruck Easton,
 9     please step forward.
10  79                   UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:  He is not
11     here.
12  80                   MR. RHÉAUME:  He is not here?
13  81                   Welcome back.
14  82                   Priscilla Connolly.
16  83                   MS CONNOLLY:  I'm going to read my
17     presentation in case I lose my train of thought.
18  84                   I am here today because the CBC is
19     very important to me personally and also of special
20     importance to this part of the country.  Being a border
21     city, we are subjected to massive amounts of American
22     media and it is essential that we maintain a Canadian
23     presence and a strong voice in this area.
24  85                   Where else can we tune into such
25     programs as Ideas, Tapestry, As It Happens, Cross


 1     Country Check-up, not to mention This Week In
 2     Parliament on Sunday mornings?  We do not get this type
 3     of programming from any other source.  On CBC Radio Two
 4     we have a variety of classical music programs and also
 5     opera.  Since the demise of WQRS, there does not seem
 6     to be any other source of classical music in this area.
 7  86                   I am more of a radio listener than a
 8     TV watcher, but I do depend on the CBC for newscasts,
 9     both national and local.  I would like to stress that I
10     think the local news is very well covered by excellent
11     reporters.
12  87                   The regional news reports on
13     Newsworld give us a snapshot view of what is happening
14     and the concerns of people in other parts of our large
15     country and so give us some sense of being part of a
16     larger whole.
17  88                   The budget cutbacks have already had
18     a severe effect on programming, both in content and
19     presentation.  If the CBC is to fulfil its mandate, it
20     is essential that the government be persuaded that the
21     people both want and are behind the CBC and that budget
22     cuts must stop.  On the CBC's part, it is imperative
23     that they keep up the quality of their programs so that
24     the listeners and watchers will feel that their loyalty
25     is deserved.


 1  89                   The closing of so many overseas
 2     bureaus, the latest being Paris and South Africa, does
 3     not seem to me to be the way to keep up the quality I
 4     mentioned.  There must be other places where economies
 5     could be made with less drastic results.  This trend is
 6     most disturbing.
 7  90                   The present strike of technicians has
 8     brought home to me very forcibly how much I depend on
 9     our local programming and how bereft I feel without the
10     5:30 and 11:30 channel 9 news.  Thank goodness for The
11     Morning Show.  They do their very best with limited
12     resources.
13  91                   In closing, I would appeal to the
14     government to stop the cutbacks.  Stop clipping the
15     wings of the CBC and realize that people such as myself
16     want the CBC not only to continue but to grow.
17  92                   Thank you.
18  93                   THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
19     much, Mrs. Connolly.
20  94                   As I mentioned at the beginning, a
21     lack of questions does not mean lack of interest.  We
22     are more concerned to hear what you have to say in
23     these sessions, and there are many people to speak.  So
24     we will proceed without the questions, but please don't
25     take that as a lack of interest.


 1  95                   Our next speaker.
 2  96                   MR. RHÉAUME:  Mr. Bruce Crozier.
 4  97                   MR. CROZIER:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
 5  98                   I want to thank the Commission for
 6     coming to Windsor and Essex county and I want to thank
 7     you for allowing us the time to address you today.
 8  99                   Windsor and Essex County, if you
 9     don't already know, is the sun parlour of Canada, or is
10     known as such, and it borders on the tomato capital of
11     Canada.  While I'm here supporting the CBC, I have to
12     get that in as well.
13  100                  Although, I am the member of
14     provincial parliament for Essex South, I'm appearing as
15     much today as a private citizen and a long-time
16     listener to the CBC.
17  101                  I have been an avid CBC viewer and
18     listener for many years.  Due to the limited time that
19     we have today and the opportunity we want to give to
20     everyone to speak to you, I will confine my comments to
21     CBC radio in hopes that others will address their
22     remarks to the television.
23  102                  I am unilingual, at least at this
24     point in my life, but I appreciate the value of the
25     French network Radio-Canada and support its existence.


 1  103                  To the question of how well does the
 2     CBC fulfil its role as the national public broadcaster,
 3     I want to give you a few examples of how I feel it does
 4     fulfil that role.
 5  104                  I think of programs such as As It
 6     Happens with Mary Lou Finlay and Barbara Budd, Cross
 7     Country Check-up with Rex Murphy, The House with Jason
 8     Moscovitz and This Morning with Averil Benoit and
 9     Michael Enright.  Over time, things will change, but I
10     think these are examples of both national and regional
11     programming that make CBC radio what it is.
12  105                  To the question of the new
13     millennium.
14  106                  Over time of course things will
15     change.  In the new millennium, will we be different on
16     January 1st, 2000?  I think not.  Will we be any
17     different in June of the Year 2000?  Maybe.  But
18     certainly in June of 2010 we will have changed a great
19     deal and I would hope that the CBC, as it has in the
20     past, will continue to change with the times.
21  107                  How well does the CBC serve the
22     public on a regional as well as a national level?  I
23     think again of those programs that are produced
24     locally:  Morning Watch, which covers Windsor, Essex
25     County, Sarnia and Chatham-Kent with business news,


 1     finance news, particularly news about the auto industry
 2     and municipal affairs; Crosstown is an afternoon
 3     program that's normally produced in this area,
 4     notwithstanding any minor inconveniences that we may
 5     suffer at the present time, but that also covers a
 6     range of entertainment issues in the area and has a
 7     variety of programming that serves us on a regional
 8     basis.
 9  108                  If there is one suggestion I could
10     make, it would be -- and I may have a vested interest
11     in this -- that there be a provincial program similar
12     to The House, because that covers federal issues.  It
13     would have a provincial perspective, one that perhaps
14     in each of our regions of the country could involve the
15     provincial legislatures in their area.
16                            "Should the programming provided
17                            by CBC radio and television be
18                            different from that provided by
19                            other broadcasters?  If so, what
20                            should the differences be?" 
21                            (As read)
22  109                  I think that CBC must maintain the
23     distinction between public and private broadcasting. 
24     Private broadcasting, to me, is the commercial venue
25     and they then have to satisfy certain commercial


 1     interests.
 2  110                  It was mentioned earlier today,
 3     earlier at this session, of the control, I believe, of
 4     some of the media in this country.  I think in
 5     particular of the print media.  I believe that we
 6     somehow have to have that national and local
 7     perspective that is not necessarily controlled by
 8     private interests and for commercial reasons.
 9  111                  It is difficult for the CBC, because
10     they want to maintain that special Canadian
11     programming, but the CBC should be almost exclusively
12     Canadian in its programming.  That is not to say that
13     programming from other countries may not be used, but I
14     think it always must be used in the context which
15     applies to Canada.
16  112                  This is difficult I know because it
17     is publicly funded and publicly funded programs -- in
18     the broad sense of programs, anything that is publicly
19     funded has to be very careful of how it serves the
20     public.  The CBC, of course, its budget is controlled
21     by the government of the day and to the extent that the
22     CBC can, I think it must maintain independence and I
23     encourage the federal government to provide stable and
24     adequate funding for the CBC.
25  113                  In conclusion, I would like to


 1     emphasize that, in my view, the CBC should continue to
 2     play an important and unique role in North America, and
 3     for that matter in broadcasting in the world.
 4  114                  We are a border city here.  We are
 5     influenced a great deal by the United States.  In fact,
 6     a little known fact may be that if you go on the
 7     cardinal points of the compass 200 miles in any
 8     direction from where you are sitting now you would be
 9     in the United States.  North you would be in Michigan,
10     west you would be in Illinois, south you would be in
11     Ohio and on the east you would be in -- and I'm not
12     sure, but New York State or Pennsylvania.  So we are
13     very unique here in that we are surrounded by the
14     United States.  We need the CBC.
15  115                  Opinions may vary, but in my view the
16     CBC presents quality, balanced Canadian programming and
17     it should build on an outstanding history for the
18     future.
19  116                  Thank you.
20  117                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
21     much, Mr. Crozier.  Thank you for being here today.
22  118                  Our next participant.
23  119                  MR. RHÉAUME:  Senior Constable Ken
24     Koekstat.  Not here.
25  120                  Mr. Nick Carlan.


 2  121                  MR. CARLAN:  Thank you very much. 
 3     Good afternoon to the Commissioners.  I will read most
 4     of my thoughts and I will add to them later.
 5  122                  In response to your first inquiry,
 6     "Does the CBC fulfil its role as a national public
 7     broadcaster", I feel very strong, along with my family
 8     members, that the CBC has performed extremely well and
 9     we are very appreciative of it and the continued future
10     of the CBC.
11  123                  We enjoy the TV radio programs.  As I
12     am retired, we have a lasting -- excuse me.  I have my
13     sentences mixed here.
14  124                  We do feel, in my case, our mornings
15     are filled with the Morningside.  At one time, Max
16     Ferguson -- I don't know if you remember him?
17  125                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  I do.
18  126                  MR. CARLAN:  You do.  And
19     Peter Gzowski and Michael Enright.  So we have a full
20     morning which we enjoy thoroughly.  As a retired
21     person, that means a lot to many of us.
22  127                  We are kept informed each half hour
23     during the afternoon by Bob Bishop and Tommy Aubin(ph)
24     with the news breaks that come about, and which you
25     spoke about.  We feel very good about that as because


 1     of the news breaks we have that news information.
 2  128                  The programs are very adequate and
 3     there is no reason to change them, we don't think, I
 4     don't think.  They fulfil my needs as far as a TV and
 5     radio listener.
 6  129                  We feel that the content and the
 7     delivery are very, very good.  They are very
 8     entertaining.  There are human interest stories which
 9     are brought about during the day, without a strike,
10     say, you know.
11  130                  We can suggest that appealing to the
12     younger people, that the CBC would try to attract
13     younger people to listen to the CBC in whatever plans
14     they would have.  I understand that there is a big
15     group between 20 years of age and 49.  They are a major
16     part of the population in that the CBC can consider
17     targeting or focusing on those people.
18  131                  Sometimes I visit my friends and if
19     they are not listening to CBC I leave because I want to
20     listen to the CBC, so they turn it on.  I will not stay
21     where there is no CBC news radio.
22     --- Laughter / Rires
23  132                  MR. CARLAN:  Pardon me?
24     --- Laughter / Rires
25  133                  MR. CARLAN:  I say "Turn it on 17


 1     or 9 or I'm gone."
 2     --- Laughter / Rires
 3  134                  MR. CARLAN:  The CBC has always had
 4     or been a major symbol of being a proud Canadian.  It
 5     has a spirit and a body.  Look around.  We are an
 6     institution of Canadians and again to say the CBC is
 7     the main ingredient of being a proud Canadian.
 8  135                  We do have the art gallery, the
 9     symphony, the local theatres and sports events; but I
10     think the CBC pulls all that together, and I can truly
11     say that I'm Canadian rather than an American, because
12     we live so close.
13  136                  The CBC has been a different source
14     of communication.  It does not verge on mind control. 
15     That's happening on some TV programs at the moment. 
16     The bombardment of political ads are too much.  I think
17     they are excessive and there should be some control or
18     a code of some kind.  But I don't feel that I should be
19     propagandized by stations, as Mr. Crozier said, who
20     have a commercial agenda.  Therefore, that strengthens
21     my belief in the CBC as being a more neutral
22     communicator.
23  137                  I feel that the CBC has been brave
24     and proud, both.  I can remember a report on a town
25     hall meeting and Mr. Chrétien was very upset with some


 1     of the programming, but I thought that the CBC was very
 2     brave at that time.  Even in spite of his utterances,
 3     the CBC stuck with the story.
 4  138                  The CBC should not be threatened.  It
 5     should have a free functioning of their operation.  It
 6     should not be subject to financial threats.  It has to
 7     be truly a free communicator to the people.  I realize
 8     that this is asking a lot for the people that run the
 9     CBC, but that has to be done in order that that be a
10     viable organization in the future.
11  139                  I don't know if you know Windsor at
12     all.  A little, do you?
13  140                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  A little and I must
14     confess my father grew up here.
15  141                  MR. CARLAN:  Pardon me?
16  142                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  My dad grew up
17     here.
18  143                  MR. CARLAN:  Oh, I see.  Okay. 
19     That's fine.
20  144                  Because not only do we produce good
21     television, we produce good producers and journalists
22     such as Costi Veragus(ph), Carol McNeil,
23     Sue Prestage(ph), Eric Sorensen.  It goes on and on.  I
24     don't know what Toronto would do without Windsor.
25     --- Laughter / Rires


 1  145                  MR. CARLAN:  So it is very important
 2     that we are at the -- our metropolitan population --
 3     this is from the Financial Post, by the way, our
 4     population is it 280,000.  It is going to be in the
 5     year 2002 over 300,000.  So The Star suggested that
 6     maybe the CBC was on demise, but I think that you
 7     should look forward to expanding the facilities of the
 8     CBC because our population is expanding.
 9  146                  Also, there is some data on the TV
10     stations and CBC ranks very, very high.  It ranks at
11     49 per cent.  I'm just not too sure of the reading of
12     these surveys, you know, but if you would like a copy
13     of this I will leave this with you.  So there is no
14     reduction of audience.
15  147                  Percy Hatfield is here.  He mentioned
16     to me about the strike or the rally of 1990.  We had
17     over 10,000 people at that rally and the CBC was closed
18     for four years.  I think everyone here would remember
19     that vacuum.  It was terrible.  You know, when you want
20     the news and you have to turn on an American station. 
21     This gives you a very empty feeling.
22  148                  But the man that closed the CBC down
23     is now living in New York.  So maybe if you want to put
24     this down:  the man that intends to do anything with
25     the CBC here might end up in Newfoundland or wherever.


 1     --- Laughter / Rires
 2  149                  MR. CARLAN:  So we urge your
 3     Commission to take our message back to -- I guess you
 4     have a May meeting, that there is no weak links with
 5     the community and CBC.  We are very strong, we have a
 6     future ahead of us, and the CBC has made us truly proud
 7     Canadians.
 8  150                  Thank you very much.
 9  151                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
10     much, Mr. Carlan.
11  152                  Our next participant.
12  153                  MR. RHÉAUME:  Mr. Paul
13     Poirier McIntyre.
15  154                  MR. McINTYRE:  Thank you,
16     Madam Chairman.
17  155                  People know me here as Paul McIntyre. 
18     I put my middle name in to remind me to say that my
19     grandfather came from the Gaspé, so I have some claim
20     perhaps to both sides of our country.
21  156                  I think I would like to begin with a
22     little gloss on something the previous speaker said.
23  157                  Every time I see Peter Jennings on
24     the nightly news, I'm reminded how much the American
25     networks are indebted to the CBC, for that's where he


 1     learned and many others learned their trade.
 2  158                  I'm a Canadian by birth and I have
 3     lived in Windsor since 1970.  Until two years ago, I
 4     was a professor of music at the University of Windsor. 
 5     I try to continue to be active as a musician,
 6     especially as a composer.  I mention that because I
 7     want to say something about that later.
 8  159                  I want to try to organize myself in
 9     three -- before I even say that, I want to recommend to
10     the Commissioners the editorial in today's Windsor Star
11     which welcomes you to Windsor and has quite a bit to
12     say.  I agree with a very large part of it.  I do not
13     wish to be associated with the hint that perhaps the
14     CRTC should put itself out of business, which was the
15     last sentence in the editorial.  I might have one or
16     two other comments later, but I think there is a lot of
17     valuable suggestion there for you.
18  160                  So I would like to try to organize
19     myself into three different categories here in
20     10 minutes.  I would like to make one or two -- and
21     these are all my own personal views -- one or two
22     comments about the CBC generally; I would like to say
23     one or two things about our local situation here with
24     regard to the CBC, and that has been referred to in
25     several different ways; and I want to say a couple of


 1     things from the point of view that I'm a composer.
 2  161                  So the CBC generally.  I think the
 3     first thing I want to say is we absolutely must have
 4     either the CBC or something that fulfils the same
 5     functions for us.
 6  162                  I was looking in a pocket atlas the
 7     other day and discovered that until recently Canada was
 8     one of the three largest geopolitical units in the
 9     world, the other two being of course the Soviet Union,
10     which is no longer there, and China.  Now, the Soviet
11     Union and China hold themselves together by methods
12     that are largely unworkable in a democracy.  We hold
13     the country together very heavily by electronics. 
14     Somebody has to pay for the electronics, and at the
15     moment it is the government but the government seems to
16     be having difficulties.
17  163                  Which brings me to my second point
18     about the CBC generally.  I may appear to be wanting to
19     toss at somebody one of the products of the tomato
20     capital of Canada but I'm not sure where the missile
21     belongs exactly, so what I will say is there are two
22     givens here.  There is the given of the continuing and
23     very severe government cuts, and there is the other
24     given which is perhaps in the rumour that accuses the
25     CBC in some of its news coverage of being unfair.


 1  164                  If this is true, if the government
 2     has no other means to deal with unfairness in the news
 3     coverage of the government than to turn off the taps
 4     and close the ship down, then I think we have a very
 5     serious problem of management, and I don't want to say
 6     anything more about it.
 7  165                  I mean, I appreciate and I support
 8     the notion that the CBC has to be independent
 9     politically, but at the same time, well, forgive me, if
10     the Emperor is paying your salary indirectly or
11     directly, it isn't a very good idea to indulge in
12     criticism of his clothes.  That's my view of the thing,
13     but I realize it's a very complicated question.
14  166                  Now, having tossed my missile in, may
15     I go to the place of the CBC in this community as I
16     have experienced it over the last nearly 30 years.
17  167                  Reference was made a few moments ago
18     to the closure of the local CBC outlet for four years
19     beginning in 1990.  The local understanding was, to
20     make matters worse, that the reason behind this was a
21     purely political thing, that it had nothing really to
22     do with quality or anything else.  If you want me to
23     enlarge on that, I would be glad to, and I don't want
24     to sound like an elephant with a long memory.
25  168                  The fact remains that even after the


 1     restoration of the news broadcasts, in my personal
 2     view, the quality has never returned to the level that
 3     it was before.  I think this is all very important
 4     because I think that the local CBC outlet, and this has
 5     been said in various ways, is one of the most important
 6     functions, one of the most important means that we have
 7     of holding the community together.
 8  169                  If we want to know what is going on
 9     in the community, we are more likely to look for the
10     answer on television on a day-to-day basis.  We will
11     find it, yes, in the Windsor Star, but we will find it
12     in a more immediate and perhaps more contemporary way
13     on television.  If that is being impeded, I think it's
14     too bad and I think the CBC is not fulfilling for us
15     one of its primary functions.
16  170                  But there is another angle to all of
17     this, and it is hinted at in the editorial today. 
18     Fine, when we do have local news back, when the strike
19     is over, it will probably be again at 5:30 in the
20     afternoon, which is a little bit early for most people
21     coming home from work and to supper.  Then we are
22     treated to a whole hour of local news from Toronto,
23     which is all very well as long as Toronto is talking
24     about provincial matters and less interesting when
25     Toronto begins talking about some local school board


 1     election or something like that.  I question whether it
 2     has to be a full hour.  Then of course we have no news
 3     until ten o'clock when we have The National followed by
 4     The Magazine and then, presumably, we could have our
 5     own look at the community at 11:00.  No, we have to see
 6     The National again.  This one puzzles me completely.  I
 7     don't know why that should be, but I want to toss it in
 8     there and let you consider that little problem.
 9  171                  Another comment on the local scene,
10     and this is something that I have never seen anybody
11     address.  It has been said that within an hour of where
12     we sit there are about 12 million people, and we can
13     get their broadcasts.  We can pull in Toledo very
14     nicely in South Windsor.  Why has somebody not thought
15     about using the Windsor outlets, both radio and
16     television, as a means of communicating what is going
17     on in this country more fully to these other people? 
18     I'm talking now missionary, I'm talking international
19     service, I'm talking culture as international trade
20     stimulation, et cetera, et cetera.  I think somebody is
21     missing an opportunity there.  That 12 million people
22     is equal to about a third of the total population in
23     this country and it is, as has been said, a very active
24     and rich part of that other country that we don't
25     mention.


 1  172                  Now, my third category, I want to say
 2     something which has nothing really to do with Windsor.
 3  173                  There are a lot of composers in this
 4     country.  The last time I counted, there were 200
 5     members of the Canadian League of Composers.  I know it
 6     has gone way up since I last looked.  It may be double
 7     that.  We have produced an enormous amount of music and
 8     it is good music.  Yes, the CBC has been very helpful
 9     to us over the years in various and sundry ways, going
10     all the way back to the international service
11     recordings of the thirties and forties and fifties,
12     which were disseminated around the world.  There was a
13     sort of crystallization of this relationship with the
14     CBC and composers in the seventies which -- the content
15     laws, the Canadian content guidelines.
16  174                  Now, what is puzzling me, and I only
17     cite an example here, the CBC as we know has also a
18     recording wing; they make records.
19  175                  Now, the other year, one of these
20     recordings came out which interested me very much.  It
21     was a recording by a singer, an opera and concert
22     singer from Winnipeg by the name of Edith Viens who has
23     an international career, and wonderful.  She made a
24     very beautiful recording, there was a very beautiful
25     accompanist.  What was the music she recorded?  It was


 1     songs of Richard Strauss, who was one of the greatest
 2     composers of the twentieth century, but he is also one
 3     of the most overrecorded, if anything, composers of the
 4     twentieth century and, as you may have guessed by now
 5     if you didn't know already, a German composer.  I have
 6     nothing against that, but I haven't yet figured out why
 7     the CBC is going to all this trouble to record the
 8     music of a German composer who is already overrecorded.
 9  176                  It has been suggested to me that one
10     of the reasons was so that the CBC could then broadcast
11     Strauss songs, which are beautiful and everybody loves
12     them who knows them, and call it Canadian content
13     because the singer is Canadian, which I suggest is
14     perfectly legitimate within the guidelines as they are,
15     but I am tempted to say maybe it is time to review the
16     guidelines if the CBC is skating around a kind of hole
17     in the ice there.
18  177                  I think I have probably exceeded my
19     10 minutes.  I thank you, Madam Chairman, for your
20     patience.
21  178                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  You are just on the
22     mark, Mr. McIntyre.  Well timed, as it should be for a
23     musician.
24  179                  Thank you very much.
25  180                  I think what we will do is go through


 1     the --
 2  181                  MR. CARLAN:  Madam Chair,
 3     Margaret Williams is here now.
 4  182                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.  You are ahead
 5     of me there, Mr. Carlan.  We had you earlier, and if
 6     you would like to join us at the table, Margaret.
 7  183                  We also had Bruck Easton,
 8     Nataley Nagy.
 9     --- Off microphone / Sans microphone
10  184                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Sergeant Constable,
11     could you come to the table?
12  185                  For those who just joined us, we were
13     working in groups of 10 and you were part of the
14     first 10.
15     --- Pause / Pause
16  186                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  If you could say
17     who you are for the record as you begin to speak and
18     who is with you this afternoon.
19  187                  Ms Dudley just noted that she would
20     like to add a comment or two.  I think we will hear the
21     other speakers and then I'm watching my small but
22     effective timepiece and see how we are doing with time
23     after.
24  188                  So if I could ask Margaret Williams.


 1  189                  MS WILLIAMS:  My name is
 2     Margaret Williams and I'm Windsor City Councillor.  Our
 3     Mayor, Michael Hurst, regrets that he is unable to be
 4     here today in person.  He is sunning himself in
 5     Florida, but he asked me to convey his regrets, and
 6     also would like to welcome you to the City of Windsor,
 7     Canada's southern most city.
 8  190                  Let me say at the outset that the
 9     City of Windsor strongly endorses the renewal of CBC
10     licences.
11  191                  There was a late change of venue for
12     this hearing from the Caboto Club to the Hilton Hotel. 
13     I must say that we are delighted with this change.  In
14     the city's many appearances before this Commission, and
15     I appeared last year before the Commission in London,
16     Ontario, it has never been possible to truly explain
17     the unique nature of Windsor, its needs, its concerns
18     and its challenges.
19  192                  Now the Commission is on our
20     doorstep, so take a good look around.  Just out in the
21     street in front, one cold December a few years ago,
22     8,000 Windsor and area citizens demonstrated for the
23     resumption of the local TV CBC news.  Fifty-seven
24     thousand people in the space of two weeks signed a
25     petition to request restoration of service.  We doubt


 1     this expression of the need for the CBC and for its
 2     local service could have happened anywhere else in
 3     Canada.
 4  193                  In its time, the Commission has heard
 5     many a protest to permit more and more American
 6     services.  Here was a much larger instance of protest. 
 7     It was a case of Canadians vehemently demanding at
 8     least some kind of parity with other Canadians in
 9     receiving full local television service.
10  194                  Since that time, a number of events
11     have happened.  The CBC partially restored its service
12     to more than half of its former offering.  CHWI
13     television came on the scene with 10 hours a week of
14     local Windsor news and affairs, material gathered by a
15     staff in Windsor which is assembled and presented from
16     CHUM's CFPL London studio, and certainly a situation
17     much improved from five years ago.
18  195                  But what we want to share with you
19     now has much to do with the view from the front of this
20     hotel.  Metropolitan Detroit, twice the size of
21     Toronto, overwhelms us with its media presence. 
22     Something like 54 radio and 14 TV stations converge in
23     this area.  We are awash in U.S. media, as you well
24     see.  Those concerned demonstrators were people who
25     love this country, wish to participate fully in it and


 1     want their children to grow up as real Canadians.
 2  196                  What brought the demonstrators out
 3     into the street below was the huge sense of loss, of
 4     abandonment in our desire to retain our Canadianism. 
 5     Not just our national identity was at stake, our sense
 6     of community was threatened.  Let me try to explain why
 7     this was so important.
 8  197                  Many things in the administration and
 9     development of a community can only happen in the
10     presence of informed and participating citizens. 
11     Without any local TV news and public affairs, a growing
12     apathy was noticed.  New initiatives were more
13     difficult to present and to engender support.
14  198                  Now when you see the skyscrapers
15     across the water, you should know that Windsor has
16     finally achieved its decades' old dream of securing for
17     its public an uninterrupted three-mile stretch of
18     waterfront park from the Ambassador Bridge to the Hiram
19     Walker distillery.  The area to the west of this hotel
20     will be redeveloped and the new Windsor Art Gallery
21     will be built.  Plans for other major developments are
22     near fruition, such as for a new arena and
23     entertainment centre.  It is impossible to say how much
24     the restoration of TV services has contributed, but it
25     has been significant.


 1  199                  So in terms of the questions for
 2     which the Commission invited comments, we are most
 3     definite that the local and regional aspects of CBC
 4     radio and television are vital to us.  We would suggest
 5     that they are also vital to the CBC.
 6  200                  One of the most obvious effects when
 7     the CBC removed local service was the devastating
 8     result to the rest of the CBC's overall ratings. 
 9     Strong local programming, two hours every week day, had
10     built a large following that stayed for the prime time
11     network programming.  The economic havoc caused by
12     adopting the regional format, meaning from Toronto,
13     probably far outweighed the savings from reduced
14     services.
15  201                  Worst still, was the impossibility of
16     the CBC in competing significantly for the hearts and
17     minds of Canadians when stripped of its grassroots
18     support.  There cannot be a clearer demonstration of
19     the vital importance of a strong local presence.  This
20     is a unique capability which binds communities, can
21     then bind regions and combine a nation.
22  202                  While many have indicated local
23     broadcasting is an expensive impediment to efficient
24     use of the CBC's scarce dollars, the danger is that if
25     the CBC gives up its grassroots support it will become


 1     so marginalized as to become insignificant and
 2     inconsequential in Canadian affairs.  The proof of this
 3     was demonstrated in Windsor.
 4  203                  In spite of the overwhelming media
 5     spillover, Windsor radio and TV broadcasters do secure
 6     a local audience.  Due to the difficulties of this
 7     market, the Commission has made many special
 8     concessions to maintain the viability of private radio
 9     in a community.  In doing so, there is an added need
10     that the Commission ensures that it strengthens the
11     Canadian elements in broadcasting in Windsor.
12  204                  In particular, it should be noted
13     that in 1975, when the Commission ordered the private
14     broadcaster to relinquish control of the television
15     station to the CBC, the CBC made promises to maintain
16     and improve on the local TV programming which was
17     already in place.  Because of this special contract, if
18     you will, Windsor should receive special support from
19     the CBC to maintain services more comparable to other
20     centres of similar size, especially since the CBC
21     formally committed itself to undertake that role in
22     order to secure the licence.
23  205                  Another interest of the Commission is
24     the role of the CBC in the new millennium.  Very
25     definitely the CBC must embrace the newer technologies


 1     and it must be funded to do so.  Simply ending local
 2     services is not the answer.  One of the most important
 3     messages Windsor brings to the Commission is an
 4     indication of what a multichannel future can bring to
 5     the rest of Canada.
 6  206                  Windsor stands as a warning, if you
 7     like, a made-for-television case study of the problems
 8     posed when Canadian content drowns in a plethora of
 9     choice.  Given the ease in Windsor of securing a U.S.
10     direct broadcast satellite receiver, it is remarkable
11     how relatively few there actually seem to be.  This is
12     probably an indication of the need for local and
13     Canadian programming, particularly when much of this is
14     only obtainable through cable, and in many parts of the
15     county actually is not even available through cable.
16  207                  A few years ago, at the time of the
17     structural framework hearings, we reported a number of
18     research findings concerning the impact of local media
19     in Ontario with specific reference to Windsor and the
20     detrimental effects on political participation and on
21     the sense of community.  At this moment, Windsor's City
22     Centre Revitalization Task Force is analysing the data
23     from its in depth survey of 804 citizens of Windsor and
24     the adjacent communities.  Indications are that a
25     significantly greater number of people now identify


 1     local broadcast news with Windsor stations and not
 2     Detroit ones.
 3  208                  While CBC radio didn't have the
 4     numbers that CBC television achieved, it certainly was
 5     identified with the most educated and with those who
 6     most participated in community.  There was also a
 7     direct correlation to voting behaviour.  We hope to
 8     share this research in our formal intervention.
 9  209                  CBC radio and television are integral
10     parts of this community, playing an active role in
11     enhancing the quality of life.  Through getting out
12     into the community, providing media sponsorship of
13     cultural events and reflecting the community itself,
14     they enrich our lives.  In spite of its huge size,
15     Detroit no longer has a quality classical music
16     station, radio station, because the economics simply
17     couldn't support it.  We are fortunate in having the
18     CBC, and so are our Detroit neighbours.
19  210                  Yes, the situation is much improved
20     from five years ago, yet we think improvements should
21     be made.  From Friday night to Monday morning nothing
22     happens.  There is no local live reporting on weekends. 
23     There are still no local programs produced in areas
24     other than news and public affairs.  But I have to say
25     that emergency warning services have improved greatly


 1     in the last year.  We hope we don't need to use that
 2     too often.
 3  211                  At a time in our history when unity
 4     and identity are consuming issues, it is discouraging
 5     to think that the broadcast media concerns of Windsor,
 6     which require a strong and even strengthened CBC local
 7     presence, may be jeopardized.  Certainly more and
 8     better national programs are most desirable.  But for
 9     those of us here who can see across the river, we know
10     that the strong Canadian content we want must be
11     supported by strong local radio and TV services that
12     only the CBC can provide in this area.
13  212                  With specific reference to your
14     questions.
15  213                  The CBC is vital to Canadian life as
16     a national broadcaster.  In the new millennium, in the
17     face of ever-prolifering program choices, the CBC must
18     strengthen its local and regional grasp of the
19     audiences, embracing the new technologies such as the
20     Internet to further this goal.
21  214                  In a world according to the Disney
22     Corporation, where our literature is reversioned, our
23     heroes forgotten or spun off into toy store action
24     figures, we must have a CBC which can tell our story. 
25     As our few magazines become victims of split run


 1     economics, as commercial media interest gain entry into
 2     our classrooms, we must have our voice.
 3  215                  The question posed Saturday in the
 4     Globe and Mail was:  Should the CBC be big or should it
 5     be good?  If we treasure Canada, it must be both.
 6  216                  Thank you for your kind attention,
 7     Ms Pennefather.
 8  217                  I have some copies.
 9  218                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
10     much.  We would appreciate it.
11  219                  If anybody is able to leave a copy of
12     your remarks with us, that would be great, although we
13     are of course putting this on the public record.
14  220                  Thank you, Ms Williams, very much.
15  221                  Could I ask the gentleman now, Senior
16     Constable Ken Koekstat -- am I saying that properly?
17  222                  MR. KOEKSTAT:  That's correct.
19  223                  MR. KOEKSTAT:  I would like to take
20     this opportunity to, as when I spoke to your office
21     with Crime Stoppers, we have our Chairperson,
22     Mr. Réne Jacques -- and that is J-A-C-Q-U-E-S -- and
23     they indicated to us that we would be able to share the
24     time.  So I would introduce Réne at this time.
25  224                  MR. JACQUES:  Hello, Madam Chair,


 1     other guests.
 2  225                  As you may or may not know, Crime
 3     Stoppers is a partnerships which includes the media,
 4     police and the public.  It operates in most of the
 5     major cities within Canada and the United States.
 6  226                  In order for our program to be
 7     successful, this has to be a working partnership that
 8     allows us to get our message out.  The CBC in Windsor
 9     provides us with that opportunity.
10  227                  However, since the TV station has
11     been restricted with the amount of programming that it
12     is able to provide to the Windsor residents, we haven't
13     been able to have the same type of coverage on a TV
14     type format that we had previous to that.
15  228                  We would hope that you would be
16     looking more local content and expanding airtime within
17     the community to provide the Canadian citizens with
18     quality content and programming on the local level that
19     would enable us to do a better job at what we do, and
20     that's putting criminals behind bars.
21  229                  On the other side of the coin, there
22     is the CBC radio which we do work with weekly.  Ken
23     will probably talk about that.
24  230                  CBC is one of a number of stations
25     within the Windsor area -- two major stations actually


 1     I guess, and each has their own following.  We feel it
 2     necessary that both of those continue to operate so
 3     that we can get to everyone who is in the community. 
 4     We have to provide them with not just information about
 5     what it is that we are seeking from them in the form of
 6     tips, but also to be able to let them know how
 7     successful we are.  Without the CBC we wouldn't be able
 8     to do that.
 9  231                  I will let Ken comment on some of the
10     activities that he is involved in directly with them.
11  232                  MR. KOEKSTAT:  Well, the reason I was
12     kind enough to let Réne go first is that I usually run
13     a little long, and I know that this is a very
14     structured format.
15  233                  On a personal note, getting out and
16     about in the community, I make over 100 personal
17     appearances at service clubs, church groups, schools
18     and organizations.  I guess in doing so, in my role as
19     Crime Stopper Co-ordinator, I get to meet a lot of
20     people and also I play in a band part time.  I am a
21     musician, and I guess it's part time when I do about
22     62 weekends a year in a 52-week format, so I usually
23     run into 200 or 300 people per weekend.
24  234                  In my personal life, I get over to
25     Detroit to concerts, music stores, autographs shows and


 1     various events.  It's just unbelievable the amount of
 2     people that do listen to CBC.  In the classical format
 3     you can't go to a harmony house in Michigan and not run
 4     into somebody that isn't listening to the station and
 5     enjoying the music.
 6  235                  In regards to Crime Stoppers and
 7     events, we are very pro-community and one of our
 8     partners is the media.  Having people come up and
 9     recognize you just by your voice when you haven't even
10     been introduced to people would indicate the impact
11     that that has in the community.
12  236                  When we are out and about, whether it
13     be with our Crime Stopper van or one of our fundraising
14     projects, I'm sure -- we have already won the best
15     program in Ontario two years running against other
16     cities in stature as London, Hamilton, Kitchener and
17     Toronto with three million people, and it is definitely
18     due to the fact that we are getting the message out
19     through Paul Vassey(ph) and Morning Watch and that
20     source of media.
21  237                  There are so many events going on and
22     I have had people come and ask me, little old me, just
23     a fellow that lives on Elm Street in Windsor, coming
24     and asking me, "How come there isn't any coverage?  Why
25     isn't there any news coverage of the event?  We are


 1     looking at night and not seeing these different
 2     things."  So it has been drastically cut back.
 3  238                  So I certainly, on a personal note
 4     and on behalf of Crime Stoppers, would like to see more
 5     content from our community.  Windsor is the number one
 6     city.  I know it is the number one city in Ontario, but
 7     probably in all of Canada as well, having been to many
 8     places.  So I was hoping that it might be able to be
 9     enhanced.
10  239                  I have seen some crews come from
11     Toronto and a lot of money being spent on roving
12     projects that are put on on a national basis.  I'm
13     saying:  My God, with all this money being spent for
14     these roving projects, could they not pump some of this
15     money into our local area?  It really seems that
16     sometimes it may offend people that are sending them
17     down here, but it really seems like it is squandered on
18     some of these national issues.
19  240                  So I thank you very much for your
20     time.
21  241                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
22     much, gentlemen, both of you, for being here this
23     afternoon.
24  242                  I think we may have another member of
25     our first group.


 1  243                  Are you Mr. Easton?
 2  244                  MR. EASTON:  Yes.  I apologize.  I
 3     was told I was number 22, so I didn't rush over.
 4  245                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Number 22.  Well,
 5     we pulled a fast one on you.  We split the group.  So
 6     you are actually number 4.
 7  246                  MR. EASTON:  Oh.  Okay.
 8  247                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  And that would
 9     complete our first group.  So if you would like to
10     proceed with your remarks.
12  248                  MR. EASTON:  Well, thank you for
13     having me here today.
14  249                  I'm here in a number of different
15     capacities I guess.  I'm a long-time resident in the
16     City of Windsor.  I practice law here in Windsor.  I
17     have been involved politically with the Progressive
18     Conservative Party of Canada and indeed I am a
19     candidate in the bi-election that is going on right now
20     in Windsor, St. Clair.
21  250                  I was very involved with the Save Our
22     Station effort back in 1991 after the headquarters
23     closed our station, I guess in that sense the politics
24     is important because I think the connections were
25     helpful in what I could bring to the table in that.


 1  251                  Additionally, I have sat on
 2     Percy Hatfield's panel for many years as a political
 3     commentator, so I think I'm reasonably well known in
 4     the city.
 5  252                  Certainly, my views on the CBC are
 6     that it's essential for our city.  It has always been
 7     the only TV station here that reflects our community to
 8     Windsor.
 9  253                  You are certainly familiar that you
10     are in the most challenging television and radio market
11     probably in North America, and our location is such
12     that we have not had -- for a variety of broadcasting
13     regulation reasons we have not had different Canadian
14     broadcasters wanting to take on Windsor on a full-time
15     basis.  We have lately had the CHWI show up, but even
16     at this point their commitment is certainly not
17     complete.  The CBC local station has been a flagship in
18     television particularly but also in radio for
19     reflecting Canadian views and Windsor views to
20     Windsorites.
21  254                  So I can't emphasis the importance
22     enough of that.  You are in Canada's largest
23     metropolitan region.  Unfortunately, about 90 per cent
24     of the people within that metropolitan region are
25     Americans and live on the other side of the river and


 1     they have a very powerful influence on us in this city. 
 2     A great many of our people listen to and watch American
 3     TV.
 4  255                  Windsor is a very interesting place
 5     because of our location next to this huge metropolitan
 6     area.  We are Canadians by choice.  We all have or many
 7     of us have ties on the other side of the river and we
 8     have chosen to be on this side of the river.  But those
 9     ties need strengthening and it is very important that
10     Windsor is:  one, able to speak to itself; and, two, is
11     able to hear from the rest of the country.
12  256                  I was away for about 10 or 12 years
13     for my schooling in Toronto and Ottawa and I guess when
14     I came back home to Windsor and of course found we were
15     about the only city in the country that didn't have
16     cable at that time -- so the access to Canadian TV,
17     whether it was CTV or Global or even TV Ontario was
18     very tough to get with the UHF, there was very little
19     Canadian TV.  I just can't emphasize the importance of
20     CBC, which was always reflected on our local Channel 9,
21     even when it was an independent affiliate that was
22     merely carrying the CBC, and that certainly has been
23     strengthened.
24  257                  It is interesting Windsor's position. 
25     My wife is from northern Ontario and she likes to think


 1     that Windsor is very much like northern Ontario in its
 2     sense of isolation from the rest of the province. 
 3     Maybe that's what -- W.O. Mitchell was our
 4     writer-in-residence at the University of Windsor a few
 5     years back and he made the comment that Windsor was
 6     very much a western city.  I think that, in a sense,
 7     reflects that feeling of distance from the core,
 8     Toronto and -- many of us are Red Wing fans here,
 9     you'll know --
10  258                  UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:  Not all of us.
11     --- Laughter / Rires
12  259                  MR. EASTON:  Not all of us.  Not all
13     of us.  But many of us are.
14  260                  UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:  Most of us.
15  261                  MR. EASTON:  We look north to the
16     best hockey team we can see right across the river.
17  262                  So that isolation is a factor that
18     has to be remembered, and it's very important to have
19     the CBC here to help to bind us to the rest of the
20     country.
21  263                  But it works two ways.  I mean, I
22     think also having a local CBC affiliate here, I know
23     that on a number of occasions I see Windsor news
24     reflected nationally, and that's because we have a
25     station here in Windsor and reporters here in Windsor. 


 1     That's very important as well because that isolation
 2     works both ways.
 3  264                  We have a feeling that we are
 4     disconnected from the rest of the country to some
 5     degree and the rest of the country is disconnected from
 6     us and doesn't understand us.  So it is very helpful to
 7     see some of our local reporters putting Windsor
 8     problems on the national stage.
 9  265                  Certainly, we think as Windsor grows,
10     and it is certainly one of Canada's most important
11     manufacturing centres, and it is certainly a gateway to
12     the United States, we think that its importance needs
13     to be reflected on the national stage.  We note that
14     cities such as London, which no longer have an
15     affiliate, are not in that same position and so their
16     news is not -- their reality is not broadcast to the
17     rest of the country.  So on both sides of that
18     equation, we think the CBC TV station is important.
19  266                  This area is very interesting, too,
20     because it is the site of what I think is the CRTC's --
21     probably its greatest achievement, if maybe I can be so
22     bold as to say, is that the 30 per cent content rule
23     that was imposed on the radio stations back in the
24     sixties was really successful in my mind because of
25     CKLW radio, AM 800, which at the time, in the


 1     mid-sixties, AM radio was supreme.  It was the number
 2     one radio station in Detroit, it was number one in
 3     Cleveland, it was number one in Toledo, it was number
 4     two in Cincinnati and number two in Chicago.  When they
 5     said Gordon Lightfoot was the number one hit song or
 6     Joannie Mitchell was the number one hit song, it got
 7     played in all of those places because of it.
 8  267                  I think that's very important because
 9     one of the things we -- this is a two-way road in our
10     sense of being a frontier town or at the border is that
11     it also offers us an ability to project into the United
12     States.  You know, I think if there is one failing I
13     would mark against the local CBC stations, TV and
14     radio, is that they do not take, I don't even believe
15     they measure, the viewership they have in the United
16     States or the listenership or however you term that in
17     radio, and I think it is a very important point.
18  268                  To those of us who have contacts on
19     the other side of the river, we know the Americans
20     listen to our news.  They often like to listen to CBC
21     news and feel like they are getting an independent
22     voice, one that is uncoloured by their own political
23     biases.  They follow Canadian -- when our olympic
24     coverage, for instance, I mean, they just -- they knew
25     our olympic coverage was far superior to their olympic


 1     coverage.  It wasn't tainted with all the patriotism of
 2     blatant -- more jingoism that they were displaying on
 3     their coverage.
 4  269                  In my mind, we have a superior
 5     product that we should be sending into the United
 6     States and we can see what has happened with the
 7     success of our radio content law.  I mean, it's not for
 8     nothing that a girl from Windsor who grew up in Timmins
 9     is now the number one country star, and a girl from
10     Quebec has one all the Grammy's for number one album.
11  270                  We have an opportunity here, I think,
12     to do some cultural imperialism.  I don't know why we
13     don't carry it a little further.  We have Canadians all
14     across the United States.
15  271                  Why we are not selling our CBC news
16     to cable stations in New York, New York City and Los
17     Angeles, I'm not sure, but I certainly think it's
18     something -- we have an excellent product and we bring
19     a unique prospective to the world, certainly I have
20     seen it here in Windsor, and I think it is one we
21     should be taking into the United States and that would
22     be well received.
23  272                  I guess, lastly, I would just, in the
24     main, commend what I see done locally.  We don't have
25     enough local time on TV, but what we do have is done


 1     well, very well.  I would urge this Commission to
 2     contemplate how we might have greater local time.  But,
 3     that being said, I would compliment both the local
 4     programming and, in the main, the national programming
 5     which in my mind does a great service in bringing
 6     Canada to Canadians from sea to sea to sea and to the
 7     Great Lakes.
 8  273                  Thank you.
 9  274                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
10     much, Mr. Easton.
11  275                  I don't think we have had our other
12     speaker in from this first group.  That would conclude
13     our first group.
14  276                  Unfortunately, I think I will have to
15     keep to the timing.  Ms Dudley was asking for a further
16     comment, but at the end of the day, if you are able to
17     stay with us, if we complete our full roster, by all
18     means --
19  277                  MS DUDLEY:  Mr. Easton said a few
20     points that I wanted to.
21  278                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  So I think it would
22     be fairer if we heard our next full group and, then, at
23     the end of the day, if you wanted to add some comments,
24     that would be great.
25  279                  I would like to propose a break.  It


 1     is now 2:20.  I would like to reconvene at 2:30 with
 2     the next group of 10:  Mr. Horne, Ms Whissell,
 3     Ms Villamizar, Ms Malicki, Mr. Crowell,
 4     Ms Mina Grossman-Iani, Ms Susan Haig, Mr. David Palmer
 5     and Mr. Liam McCarthy, in 10 minutes.
 6     --- Recess at 1420 / Suspension à 1420
 7     --- Upon resuming at 1430 / Reprise à 1430
 8  280                  MR. RHÉAUME:  Mr. Bob Horne -- I'm
 9     sorry, Bill Horne.
11  281                  MR. HORNE:  Thank you very much.  I
12     appreciate the opportunity to make these comments about
13     the CBC.
14  282                  I am mostly presenting my own
15     personal views, although at some identified points I am
16     speaking as the Regional Director of the Canadian
17     Hearing Society.
18  283                  I believe the CBC should attempt to
19     present whatever it is that distinguishes us from
20     Americans or any other nation.  Admittedly, this is
21     highly subjective, and likely subject to the CBC's
22     interpretation.  But this is not a fault, for the CBC
23     is a Canadian institution and does, in fact, by its
24     very existence, help shape us as Canadians.
25  284                  People in other countries who are


 1     familiar with the CBC praise it for its unique role and
 2     have expressed opinions to me that they wish their
 3     countries had a similar public broadcaster.  One has
 4     only to listen to the countless jokes about the CBC to
 5     realize in fact just how much it is admired by many of
 6     our citizens.
 7  285                  I think the CBC fulfils its role as a
 8     national broadcaster extremely well in radio.  Programs
 9     such as As It Happens and Madly Off In All Directions,
10     these are national treasures and must be protected. 
11     They make us cherish the moments we can spend listening
12     to them and become irritable if we are not able to hear
13     them.  They help us define what Canadian is.
14  286                  In television, it is my opinion that
15     it is harder to be categorically supportive.  This is
16     probably because it is such a different medium.  Radio
17     involves us and does not let us go.  Television watches
18     over us and we tend to tune out a lot of it and channel
19     hop with wild abandon.  How many times have we all said
20     when confronted with a couple of zillion channels on
21     television "There is really nothing on right now"?
22  287                  And with advertising on the CBC, it
23     does tend to look something like its competitors.  CBC
24     radio, however, stands very distinct from its
25     competition.


 1  288                  In my opinion, some of the CBC
 2     television comedy productions miss the mark with the
 3     absolute exception of Royal Canadian Air Farce, truly a
 4     Canadian jewel, a defining moment, and its public
 5     affairs and news shows are first rate.
 6  289                  In the next millennium, CBC radio
 7     should stay the course and keep doing what it does so
 8     well.
 9  290                  In addition, I think there is a
10     wonderful opportunity to do much more to encourage the
11     development of talent by sponsoring many more creative
12     competitions, whether it be short stories, poetry, play
13     writing, whatever.  New talent needs an outlet and CBC
14     radio can do this extremely well.  Insist that the
15     works contribute to the further definition of the
16     nature of being Canadian, offer modest prizes chiefly
17     composed of recognition and the talent will come.
18  291                  As for television, CBC should carry
19     only Canadian productions and drama, comedy, sports and
20     public affairs, with the exception of foreign
21     contributions such as the BBC World News.
22  292                  While I deplore the current strike
23     and the effects it is having on employees and
24     audiences, I have come to appreciate the BBC news on
25     the morning time slot and, as a current affairs junkie,


 1     would love to see this type of programming more
 2     regularly.  Maybe this would be a way to offset the
 3     loss of foreign bureaus by having reputable public
 4     broadcasters elsewhere fill the gap.
 5  293                  The CBC should place great emphasis
 6     on staying in touch with its audiences and constantly
 7     seek their feedback on new programming and the
 8     development of same.  It could consider the creation of
 9     a consumer advisory panel which would meet at regular
10     intervals to hear presentations from CBC staff and have
11     the power to offer suggestions that will be acted on. 
12     I base these comments on personal experience in a
13     former life with Bell Canada's Consumer Advisory Panel.
14  294                  Speaking as a representative of the
15     Canadian Hearing Society now I am naturally concerned
16     with accessibility issues for deaf and hard of hearing
17     people and encourage the CBC to move aggressively to
18     full captioning on all of its programming.  Recognizing
19     the cost of this, I have no problem with soliciting
20     sponsorships for this venture.
21  295                  I also understand that there have
22     been broadcasts of real time radio in the USA via the
23     Web, using voice-to-text captioning for the first time
24     allowing these consumers access to radio.  The CBC
25     should be implementing this technology for its prime


 1     shows as a start, and move completely to this medium
 2     over the longer term.
 3  296                  I would also strongly encourage the
 4     CBC, both radio and TV, to become more involved with
 5     coverage of events for people with disabilities, such
 6     as the recent Deaf World Winter Games held in Europe in
 7     which Canada won gold in hockey, for example.
 8  297                  Seventeen per cent of the Ontario
 9     population has a recognized disability, the number
10     expected to rise to 25 per cent in just 18 years.  CBC
11     can make a major contribution to reducing and
12     eventually eliminating the discrimination and barriers
13     faced by this substantial part of our population.  A
14     good example of the start of this recognition was the
15     recent public forum on disabilities hosted here in
16     Windsor by CBC Radio One.
17  298                  As to regional productions, there is
18     definitely a role for regional productions, both radio
19     and television.  I would like to see the reverse of the
20     trend of less local productions and more national and
21     turn that around.
22  299                  I do feel obliged to present a pet
23     peeve here regarding the national and, hence, the local
24     evening news.  I simply do not understand why CBC
25     carries national news at 10:00 p.m. and again repeats


 1     it at 11:00, thereby forcing the local regional news to
 2     11:30.  This is simply too late for many of us who
 3     arise early.  I would enjoy the local news, but I'm
 4     never home from work in time to see it and staying up
 5     until 11:30 or later is just too late.  I assume
 6     somebody watches those news programs, but I never can.
 7  300                  It seems to me that radio has more
 8     flexibility for regional programming, and I applaud the
 9     Morning Watch show produced here for its blend of local
10     and regional coverage.  Maybe there is an opportunity
11     for some regional public affairs programming at other
12     time slots as well.
13  301                  Now, again, speaking as a
14     representative of a non-profit organization, I commend
15     the CBC for its policy of assisting these groups in
16     promotion of their events by providing a level of
17     exposure we could never ever afford at regular
18     commercial rates.
19  302                  Programming on CBC generally should
20     be different from other broadcasters because it is not
21     completely advertising driven.  Just this morning, with
22     no CBC morning TV program, I was forced, much against
23     my will, to watch Good Morning America.  That was about
24     20 minutes as long as I could stand of the worst of the
25     commercials.  You know:  the movie, the world's best


 1     commercials.  This was something like:  the movie, the
 2     world's worst commercials.  I think in the entire
 3     20 minutes I didn't learn anything about what was
 4     happening in the world, just commercials.
 5  303                  Information is what will drive the
 6     next millennium and the CBC should aggressively work to
 7     be the information provider of choice to all Canadians. 
 8     If I had to choose personally between information and,
 9     for example, the Red Green show, it is pretty clear to
10     me which way I would go.  It can do this via regular
11     programming and a robust Web presence.  Web presence
12     will soon be as common as any other medium, and the CBC
13     must be at the forefront of this technology.
14  304                  We need the CBC as much now as any
15     time in our past.  We need choices.
16  305                  Thank you very much.
17  306                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
18     much, Mr. Horne.
19  307                  Our next participant.
20  308                  M. RHÉAUME:  La prochaine
21     présentation, Mme Mireille Whissell.
23  309                  Mme WHISSELL:  Chers représentants du
24     CRTC, je tiens d'abord à vous remercier d'avoir bien
25     voulu vous déplacer pour vous rendre à Windsor pour la


 1     tenue des consultations publiques se rapportant à la
 2     radiodiffusion de la Société Radio-Canada à Windsor,
 3     Essex et Kent.
 4  310                  La région de Windsor/Essex/Kent en
 5     est une qui regroupe diverses disciplines, dont
 6     l'agriculture sur tous ses paliers, renommée pour la
 7     représentation de son industrie automobile, ce qui
 8     porte plusieurs à penser qu'il s'agit d'une région qui
 9     ne compte que des collets bleus.  Grave erreur!
10  311                  Nous comptons aussi des
11     professionnels qui oeuvrent dans plusieurs domaines
12     tels que le secteur de l'éducation, la culture
13     francophone qui bat son plein par des francophones et
14     pour des francophones, les arts visuels et les
15     personnes d'âge d'or.
16  312                  Nous sommes tous actuellement à
17     visionner le millénaire qui franchira bientôt notre
18     seuil et nous nous demandons tous, sans exception, où
19     et comment allons-nous aboutir avec la survie de notre
20     langue maternelle qui est le français sans l'appui
21     médiatique.
22  313                  Certains journalistes anglophones se
23     sont permis de publier un article dans notre journal,
24     le "Windsor Star", à l'effet que la radio et la télé
25     française n'étaient plus nécessaires dans cette ville


 1     dont la population anglaise prime et dont la population
 2     francophone se voit assimiler.  Quelle erreur!
 3  314                  Nous jouissons d'une merveilleuse
 4     équipe d'animateurs et d'animatrices qui oeuvrent au
 5     sein d'un poste radiophonique reconnu comme étant le
 6     champ de formation pour journalistes.  Les plus doués
 7     et acharnés se voient muter ailleurs au cours d'une
 8     année seulement de formation.  Certains ont opté de
 9     terminer leur mandat à Windsor et d'autres n'ont pas le
10     choix.
11  315                  Nous avons un cablôdistributeur qui
12     porte le nom de Cogeco et qui se refuse de nous offrir
13     le poste RDI de Radio-Canada et les ondes des postes de
14     la Société Radio-Canada télédiffusés en français ne
15     peuvent être captées pour les gens de Belle-Rivière ou
16     Pointe-aux-Roches afin qu'ils puissent en bénéficier.
17  316                  Nous avons de belles émissions
18     radiodiffusées localement telles que l'émission de cinq
19     minutes sur la politique étrangère, qui est enviable
20     pour les nouveaux Canadiens francophones dans notre
21     région, offerte par des immigrants francophones aux
22     coûts de la Société.  Une tentative de ligne ouverte
23     pour cette émission serait grandement appréciée où l'on
24     pourrait offrir des livres en provenance de maisons
25     d'édition franco-ontariennes aux participants, donc,


 1     d'une pierre, deux coups.  Mais on se voit refuser
 2     catégoriquement.
 3  317                  En ce qui a trait à la culture, CBEF
 4     Windsor nous fait entendre ses initiatives locales le
 5     matin très tôt pour ceux et celles qui se rendent au
 6     travail, le midi avec des entrevues diverses pour une
 7     période d'une heure et demie, et de 15 h 30 à 17 h 30
 8     pour les ados avec entrevue, des activités anticipées
 9     aussi dans les institutions scolaires.  Le samedi
10     matin, nous jouissons de notre propre Jacques
11     Languirand(ph) à nous, Pierre Côté.
12  318                  Entre-temps, on se fait nourrir de la
13     programmation venant de Montréal, nous faisant entendre
14     des entrevues avec des Québécois et pour les Québécois. 
15     Même suite à l'envoi d'une liste d'artistes
16     francophones du sud-ouest à Montréal et de leurs
17     accomplissements dans diverses disciplines culturelles,
18     on nous a complètement ignoré sans même un accusé de
19     réception et encore moins une suite.
20  319                  Le Centre culturel Tournesol
21     Windsor/Essex/Kent oeuvre depuis 25 ans auprès de la
22     population francophone du sud-ouest et s'est vu
23     reconnaître les siens par son temple de la renommée
24     francophone du sud-ouest auprès duquel nous comptons 46
25     personnalités reconnues comme étant les chefs de fil de


 1     la francophonie du sud-ouest.
 2  320                  De plus, un cercle littéraire franco
 3     du sud-ouest fut initié et se porte très bien, merci. 
 4     Chaque année depuis quatre ans, au-delà de 350 poèmes
 5     sont soumis dans le cadre du concours annuel de poésie,
 6     dont les jeunes de cinq ans allant jusqu'aux personnes
 7     de 50 ans et plus participent.  Pourquoi ne pas passer
 8     en entrevue une émission du profil de toutes ces bonnes
 9     gens qui ont accompli tellement pour la survie de la
10     francophonie dans le sud-ouest et j'y inclus nos poètes
11     en herbe de tout âge.
12  321                  En 1998, le Centre culturel Tournesol
13     Windsor/Essex/Kent montait son site Web sur l'Internet
14     et des communiqués furent envoyés à CBEF Windsor pour
15     en informer la population francophone et les
16     francophones venant à Windsor.  On a choisi de ne pas
17     imprimer cette initiative ou même de passer une
18     entrevue pour décrire et faire connaître cette
19     initiative du Centre culturel Tournesol.
20  322                  Est-ce que CBEF Windsor ne doit pas
21     reconnaître de telles initiatives, surtout lorsqu'il
22     s'agit d'une première francophone dans la région du
23     sud-ouest?  Il me semble clair que cela ne sera
24     possible sans une formation aux réalités et aux
25     exigences du monde moderne.


 1  323                  De 1975 à 1993, le Centre culturel
 2     Tournesol a présenté des spectacles mettant en vedette
 3     toute une panoplie d'artistes choisis de contacts
 4     ontariens et dont la plupart venait du Québec.  Depuis
 5     1994, nous nous limitons à faire valoir nos artistes
 6     francophones du sud-ouest et toujours sans la
 7     participation active d'une entrevue de CBEF Windsor.
 8  324                  L'initiative "Ontario Pop" bat son
 9     plein, mais où vont nos artistes francophones suite à
10     cet événement?  Que deviennent-ils sinon inconnus de
11     tous et de partout?  Je me dois de louanger l'intérêt
12     de CBEF Windsor à ce sujet pour quelques-uns de nos
13     artistes, mais que sont-ils devenus?
14  325                  Une programmation sur le profil de
15     nos artistes francophones du sud-ouest devrait faire
16     partie des émissions radiodiffusées et télédiffusées. 
17     Le refus de nous reconnaître ne fait qu'accentuer notre
18     amertume vis-à-vis de notre soi-disante Société Radio-
19     Canada qui, en passant, existe grâce à nos argents.
20  326                  Sur la toile nationale, nous
21     reconnaissons que chaque région a ses besoins
22     particuliers et la SRC surpasse les normes et les cotes
23     d'écoute au sein des régions francophones.
24  327                  Sur la toile régionale, toujours
25     selon les restrictions budgétaires, la SRC se voit


 1     prise dans l'engrenage politique, ayant à s'assouplir
 2     aux exigences imposées par les gouvernements, et ce, au
 3     détriment des demandes soumises par les auditeurs des
 4     diverses régions.  Chaque région a ses besoins, mais
 5     quoiqu'il en soit, les auditeurs et auditrices se
 6     voient privés de leurs droits, qu'ils soient exprimés
 7     ou non.
 8  328                  Portant deux chapeaux pour cette
 9     représentation, je souligne la participation de notre
10     Club Richelieu International de Windsor.  Assurez-vous
11     que je n'y fais pas erreur et je cite bel et bien le
12     Club Richelieu International de Windsor.
13  329                  Nous sommes le seul Club Richelieu à
14     détenir un tel titre parmi les quelques 470 Club
15     Richelieu qui font partie du Richelieu International. 
16     Nous avons émis des communiqués à la SRC, CBEF Windsor,
17     listant les activités de notre Club Richelieu et nous
18     avons même eu la veine de recruter le Directeur de CBEF
19     Windsor, mais nos renseignements soumis se voient
20     perdus ou remplacés par d'autres activités.  On nous a
21     même informé que l'on ne pouvait recruter d'autres
22     membres de CBEF Windsor pour en faire partie, étant
23     donné les lois des ressources humaines en vigueur à la
24     SRC.
25  330                  On en est toujours à se demander


 1     pourquoi.  Où en est la logique d'une telle loi? 
 2     Serait-ce que les employés de la SRC doivent connaître
 3     un statut social qui leur est particulier et qu'ils se
 4     verraient diminués pour autant en faisant partie
 5     d'organismes francophones dans la région?
 6  318                  La SRC n'est-elle pas une média pour
 7     la population francophone et par la population
 8     francophone ou encore serait-elle victime de
 9     l'engrenage politique dans lequel elle trempe toujours?
10  332                  Que la SRC se décentralise
11     complètement des griffes politiques qui la retiennent
12     et qu'elle entreprenne des initiatives innovatrices
13     régionales et locales qu'elle dessert.  La population
14     francophone du sud-ouest est reconnue pour avoir le
15     plus grand nombre de bénévoles francophones au sein de
16     sa communauté et je puis vous assurer que ces bénévoles
17     répondront généreusement à l'appel de la SRC si telle
18     demande était formulée.
19  333                  Je termine en vous remerciant d'avoir
20     bien voulu écouter ces revendications qui reflètent
21     l'opinion des membres du Centre culturel Tournesol
22     Windsor/Essex/Kent et du Club Richelieu International
23     du Windsor qui compte au-delà de 200 membres actifs
24     francophones qui oeuvrent avec acharnement à la survie
25     de sa culture et de sa langue française.


 1  334                  Merci.
 2  335                  LA PRÉSIDENTE:  Merci beaucoup,
 3     Madame Whissel.
 4  336                  MR. RHÉAUME:  Our next presenter will
 5     be Margaret Villamizar.
 7  337                  MS VILLAMIZAR:  Good afternoon.
 8  338                  I'm here also in a capacity as a
 9     private citizen, although I'm active in a lot of
10     different facets in the community and have been
11     involved with various organizations which have taken a
12     stand for some time in support of public broadcasting
13     and the continuation and expansion of a public
14     broadcaster here in Canada and locally.
15  339                  In my own right, I won't speak out of
16     nostalgia, but just to sort of throw it in, I was
17     raised I guess on Kindergarten Of The Year because they
18     didn't have kindergarten in the town that I grew up in
19     the Ottawa Valley.  So I remember listening to that at
20     the age of I guess five, and that was on CBC.  Ever
21     since that I can remember kind of significant portions
22     of my growing up and times of the day were marked by
23     the One O'clock Signal, the News at Six, and so on.  So
24     I guess I'm qualified as being a lifelong listener and
25     viewer of CBC television as well.


 1  340                  One of the things that sparked me to
 2     put my name forward was having read the local newspaper
 3     which is owned by the Southam chain locally here.  Over
 4     the last year at least three times I have read very
 5     aggressive anti-public broadcasting editorials coming
 6     from that newspaper and it made me very angry to see
 7     that someone was presuming to speak for Windsor, not
 8     only once, but repeatedly so, and the last effort that
 9     was put forward actually came today directed to this
10     Commission.
11  341                  The Windsor Star's editors seem to
12     believe that CBC should simply be sold off to the
13     highest bidder, and they make assertions to back that
14     up such that people aren't watching, people aren't
15     listening.  Today's assertions had to do with the fact
16     that we are surrounded by choices, U.S. media like no
17     other audience, but yet we still are very confident
18     about our identity and we don't need the CBC, thanks
19     very much.  I can't imagine that that's based on any
20     kind of investigation.
21  342                  I remember when I worked in the
22     school system previously dealing with young children
23     and part of the work I had to do involved asking them
24     questions of a general information nature.  It is kind
25     of disappointing to hear kids, young children -- and


 1     then I encounter it also in adults here who really are
 2     not that informed about Canadian affairs, but they can
 3     tell you all kinds of things about U.S. public figures. 
 4     It's not particular to Windsor I'm sure, but I think it
 5     is much more of an issue here and it's no accident that
 6     it's because the U.S. media is ever present and it is
 7     bombarding.  So I don't know where Windsor Star's
 8     editorial is coming from.
 9  343                  Personally, I would oppose the
10     sell-off or privatization of the CBC, just for the
11     record, and I also oppose a slow death by 1,000 cuts,
12     which I think is a very real threat and in fact is in
13     process at the very moment.
14  344                  The current government has been on
15     record as saying it supports CBC, made election
16     promises at that time, but in fact has cut more money
17     than any other previous government, I believe, and is
18     continuing to do so most recently in its money
19     available for productions that are aired on CBC.
20  345                  There is a reason I think in a
21     geographically vast country like Canada, with its
22     difference to have an agency like the CBC, to have it
23     flourish and continue so that in fact we can speak to
24     one another, learn about one another, and I think
25     foster national unity in a real way, in a meaningful


 1     way, where people, through dialogue and mutual
 2     understanding, become aware of everyone's rights being
 3     equal and everyone having the right to determine their
 4     own future if they so desire.
 5  346                  It is much more effective to have a
 6     CBC that brings people to one another in that way than
 7     to wave a bunch of flags or produce a bunch of trinkets
 8     which you distribute and ram down people's throat in
 9     the name of unity or worse.
10  347                  I think one of the other concerns I
11     have is the marketplace dictating what we hear in the
12     radio and what we see on television is something I
13     can't accept as being a thing that we should be
14     supporting at this time.  I think more than ever we are
15     inundated by a market-driven philosophy that says
16     whatever sells is good and if you have the money to
17     market things, you create your market and therefore you
18     can promote all kinds of things in the name of culture.
19  348                  I think again here we have a very
20     good example of some really brash, cheap, cynical,
21     loud-mouth talk show hosts dominating the airwaves
22     which really are contributing to the dumbing down of
23     America and the dumbing down of our country, too, if we
24     allow this kind of thing to proliferate in a way that
25     it naturally would if we just allow the market and


 1     those with the money to promote what they want to
 2     promote to flourish.
 3  349                  I think we have to also take a look
 4     at the print media if you want to see what happens when
 5     you have the privateers having their way and saying
 6     that all that we need is to have a private industry and
 7     things will be just fine.
 8  350                  We can look no farther than our own
 9     city, Windsor, where we have one newspaper in the
10     Conrad Black owned chain now that has filled its pages
11     with people who are promoted as being experts of one
12     sort or another who, in the most crude and sensational
13     way, now are putting forward views that attack
14     immigrants and refugees, not once, not twice but three
15     times in a period of a couple of months; attack
16     workers; attack teachers; the youth; public
17     broadcasting in a most sensational way; and also carry
18     items that sort of feed into this whole thing of
19     getting tough on crime, getting tough on teen mothers
20     in a way that one would have to say comes straight out
21     of the southern U.S.
22  351                  I don't think that is the kind of
23     thing that promotes the unity and cohesiveness of our
24     community.  In fact, it promotes the opposite,
25     divisions, and enmities and animosity, and I don't want


 1     that kind of thing to be looked on as a norm,
 2     especially when the editors of this particular
 3     newspaper are the very ones who are campaigning in a
 4     very aggressive way against continued funding for CBC
 5     or worse.
 6  352                  I think it is important that
 7     Windsorites who feel strongly that this is not the way
 8     to go should come forward and speak.  So that's what I
 9     wanted to do today.
10  353                  One of the other things that is a
11     concern to me also at this time is I think that the
12     public broadcaster, CBC, should be an independent
13     force, as was mentioned by some other people here
14     today.  I don't at all agree with the idea that it
15     should be subjected to political control or
16     manipulation, and that goes also for who gets appointed
17     to the CRTC.  I don't like the idea that we have
18     political appointments in large number and people of
19     maybe questionable connections who are deciding such an
20     important thing as the national broadcast policy for
21     our country and for our people.
22  354                  This is a time when people are
23     demanding much more say in the affairs of the nation
24     and the affairs of their own destiny and we should have
25     a role as citizens in some way selecting who should be


 1     our representatives and making important policy on the
 2     question of the public broadcast agency.
 3  355                  Local coverage is something I would
 4     like to just say a word about.
 5  356                  I think we went through an experience
 6     when local coverage was suspended here in Windsor which
 7     others have also spoken about where we saw some other
 8     private broadcasters come in and fill a vacancy to some
 9     extent, but the coverage they gave turned out, after a
10     little while, to be marginal.  They were operating out
11     of another office and it wasn't profitable that they
12     report on Windsor or they didn't have people here, or
13     you had to have a news break only at certain times to
14     be covered, and it was not an adequate substitute
15     whatsoever for local CBC programming.
16  357                  I'm glad it was reinstated.  I think
17     it should be enhanced and I think we should have more
18     coverage.  We should give the opportunity to local
19     citizens, young performers, to the youth and others who
20     wish to have a platform from which to speak, to have
21     that expanded, English and French radio.  I can
22     appreciate the comments made previously as well. 
23     That's something I support.
24  358                  Finally, I think one of the fields in
25     which the CBC should consider expanding in a way that


 1     makes sense is even in the schools, in the education
 2     system.
 3  359                  There are incursions being made right
 4     now by commercial TV under the guise of putting news in
 5     the classroom and, you know, bribery in many ways I
 6     think.  It is being used to inject I think a rather
 7     narrow and biased point of view in the name of news. 
 8     Possibly, also from what I have read about, some of the
 9     new news programs put in, but of course crass
10     commercialism.
11  360                  CBC has all kinds of programming that
12     can be valuable and is I'm sure used in schools.  I
13     think more can be done to promote that.  Teachers could
14     learn a bit, too, from what I have seen about valuable
15     content.
16  361                  A question that wasn't asked but
17     maybe I will just throw in:  Where does the money come
18     from if I'm calling for an expansion not a contraction
19     of programming and reinstatement of funding and, if
20     necessary, more funding?  I think the whole question of
21     priorities and the use of public dollars has to be
22     addressed at this time.
23  362                  I'm not a believer that the
24     trickle-down theory is going to work, that the more
25     money you pump into the pockets of the rich and the


 1     people who are already in a powerful position the
 2     benefits will gradually follow to the rest of that.  I
 3     don't believe it works now, it has never worked.
 4  363                  I think that we should not be
 5     focusing on putting all the resources of the nation in
 6     the hands of the rich in one way or another, through
 7     subsidies, through grants, through tax breaks, you name
 8     it.  We should be investing in people and in services
 9     that actually help build our nation, not tear it apart. 
10     That includes of course health and education, but I
11     include in that a valuable public independent
12     broadcaster which should be properly funded.  I don't
13     think that's the trend right now and I think it's
14     important that we look at these priorities in this
15     light.
16  364                  Things that I have heard advocated
17     and what I agree with include even a moratorium on
18     interest payments on the debt for those who have, in
19     many cases, collected the value of the debt many times
20     over in interest payments.  Why don't they get put that
21     on hold for a time and we can invest in the kinds of
22     programs and services that Canadians need to produced
23     an enlightened, cultured citizenry.
24  365                  So that is I guess what I wanted to
25     say for today.


 1  366                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 2     much.
 3  367                  Our next speaker.
 4  368                  MR. RHÉAUME:  Our next speaker is
 5     Pat Malicki.
 7  369                  MS MALICKI:  Very good.  You got it
 8     right.
 9  370                  First of all, I would like to say I'm
10     also here as an independent citizen.
11  371                  I was born in Kirkland Lake, Ontario
12     moved to Winnipeg, then to Toronto, then to
13     St. Catharines, then back to Toronto and eventually
14     here 25 years ago and CBC has been a constant all
15     through my life.
16  372                  Because of all the moves, my
17     family -- my parents, when they were growing up, moved
18     around a lot, so we have family and friends from coast
19     to coast.  The CBC enables us to know what is going on
20     in the rest of the country so we know what is affecting
21     them, not just what is affecting us in our own local
22     area.
23  373                  As has been mentioned several times
24     this afternoon, Windsor is just a step away from one of
25     the largest media markets in North America.  In Windsor


 1     we are proudly Canadian but we are constantly bombarded
 2     with American programming.  None of the cities that I
 3     have lived in has been subjected to U.S. broadcasting
 4     as much as we are here in Windsor.  We need the CBC,
 5     not only the national programming but also the regional
 6     programming.
 7  374                  I remember several years ago when our
 8     regional newscasts were coming from Toronto.  It was at
 9     that time that I had to turn to other stations to
10     receive a little more local news than what we were
11     getting out of the Toronto regional broadcast.  While
12     the information was being fed to Toronto, only a
13     certain amount of time was allotted to each area,
14     usually only one Windsor area item was included in
15     these broadcasts.  These decisions were being made by
16     people who knew nothing at all about this area.  Those
17     newscasts lacked relevance to us.  Needless to say, we
18     were all delighted when the regional programming was
19     returned to the Windsor station.
20  375                  I listen to CBC to find out what is
21     happening in my city, the county, the province and the
22     country and also the world around us.  In our family,
23     we look to CBC for its excellent current affairs and
24     news programming.  We are not fans of tabloid
25     journalism.


 1  376                  Let me take you through a typical day
 2     in the Malicki household.
 3  377                  We start the morning with Morning
 4     Watch, which brings us up to date on what is happening
 5     in this area.
 6  378                  As I go about my day, I continue with
 7     This Morning and Ontario Today.  These programs help me
 8     to feel connected with my country and my province.  I
 9     enjoy the interviews and the conversations.  I learn
10     about others in this vast country of ours, their
11     successes, their problems, their feelings, their
12     dreams.
13  379                  Every night, until recently, which I
14     presume is because of the strike, my husband watches
15     the Business News on Newsworld at 6:30 p.m.  It is the
16     only purely Canadian business report available to him
17     and it is absolutely essential for him in his job as a
18     stockbroker to have that information.
19  380                  Later in the evening we often watch
20     The Journal and almost always watch The National to be
21     brought up to date on what is happening in Canada and
22     the rest of the world.  I happen to be nighthawk, so I
23     stay up for the local news because I can't watch it at
24     5:30 and 6:00 because that's when we are having supper.
25  381                  Lest you think that we are news


 1     junkies or have nothing else to do during the day, that
 2     is far from the truth.  We are busy people involved in
 3     our community.  The programs we listen to either at
 4     home or in the car help us to feel connected.  We learn
 5     from them.  They help us to feel less insular in our
 6     thinking, help us to find out if there is a better way
 7     of doing things:  Has some other area experienced the
 8     same problems or decisions that face us?
 9  382                  I must mention on the weekend
10     Arthur Black, Definitely Not the Opera, Fresh Air are
11     constants in our lives.  What we really miss is
12     Double Exposure.  It did not translate well to TV.  I
13     can remember many times driving down the street and I'm
14     sure people in the cars next to me must have thought I
15     was a little bit crazy because I was laughing.
16  383                  Let me give you a couple of examples
17     of the importance of CBC reporting and programming.
18  384                  Last fall we were visiting friends
19     who moved to Australia about 10 years ago.  They live
20     in the Brisbane area.  Every morning at 8:00 a.m. they
21     set up their shortwave radio to pick up the CBC.  I
22     believe with the time difference it was The World At
23     Six.  They want to keep in touch with their native
24     country and hear international news from a Canadian
25     viewpoint.  It was wonderful for us, having been away


 1     for a few weeks, to be able to find out what was going
 2     on at home.
 3  385                  In this area, when the olympics are
 4     on, we have a choice of watching either the Canadian or
 5     American coverage with or without cable.  Which do we
 6     want?  The Canadian coverage provided by CBC.  Why? 
 7     Because it is comprehensive, relevant and balanced. 
 8     While it naturally focuses on the Canadian
 9     participants, it also endeavours to educate us about
10     participants from other countries.
11  386                  An interesting fact probably unknown
12     to many outside this area is that many Americans choose
13     to watch the CBC olympic coverage for just these
14     reasons.  The American coverage is just too biased.  At
15     times it can be nauseating.  I don't think the quality
16     of the CBC news and current affairs programming can be
17     matched by anyone else.  We just need more of it.
18  387                  I read recently that it costs each
19     Canadian $30 a year to subsidize the CBC.  While I
20     would prefer to use the word "support" rather than
21     "subsidize", I think it is money well spent.  In fact,
22     as a taxpayer, I would be willing to increase that
23     support.  I would far rather see us invest in the
24     future of the CBC than give a $98,000 grant to a
25     Montreal publisher for a book on dumb blonde jokes.


 1  388                  The CBC cannot be all things to all
 2     people, but it can speak to all Canadians.  It is the
 3     only network that tries to do so.  I want to hear the
 4     international news from a Canadian perspective, not an
 5     American perspective.  We need to keep our foreign
 6     bureaus and not buy coverage from foreign networks.  I
 7     want to get my news from a broadcaster that is not
 8     solely concerned with the bottom line.
 9  389                  We all have to be financially
10     accountable and the CBC has been doing an excellent job
11     over the past several years of tightening its belt. 
12     However, at some point the belt tightening will cut off
13     the flow of blood and that will be the end of the CBC
14     as a national public broadcaster.
15  390                  Also, at this point, I would like to
16     address some notes that I had made this afternoon.
17  391                  Getting the younger audience has been
18     mentioned.  To me that is not a major problem.  I know
19     myself when I was a teenager, I wouldn't have been
20     caught dead listening to the CBC.  But as a young
21     mother I can remember early on listening to the hockey
22     sweater being read on Morningside.  I have never
23     forgotten that and that was 24 or 25 years ago.
24  392                  Locally, we love to hear Bob Monks or
25     see Bob Monks on TV.  My husband feels Percy's Panel is


 1     much too short; he just gets into it and then they are
 2     off.  My feeling, too, is spend less on bricks and
 3     mortar, as has been done with the big CBC centres in
 4     Toronto and Ottawa, and more on the programming.
 5  393                  In closing, some of the questions
 6     posed in the December news release:
 7                            "How well does the CBC fulfil
 8                            its role as the national public
 9                            broadcasters?"  (As read)
10  394                  I think it is doing very well but it
11     could do a lot better.
12                            "How well does the CBC serve the
13                            public on a regional as well as
14                            a national level?"  (As read)
15  395                  It definitely needs improvement
16     regionally.  We need more local TV coverage, and it
17     seems that Windsor ceases to exist on Saturday and
18     Sunday.
19                            "Should the programming provided
20                            by the CBC radio and television
21                            be different from that provided
22                            by other broadcasters?"
23                            (As read)
24  396                  Yes.  It should serve to inform us
25     about our country and its role on the global stage.  It


 1     should help us to learn that we do have differences in
 2     our nation, but we also have a lot of similarities.
 3                            "Is there a special role that
 4                            the CBC should play in the
 5                            presentation of Canadian
 6                            programming?"  (As read)
 7  397                  Yes, and it should improve on what it
 8     is doing now.
 9  398                  Thank you for hearing my comments
10     today.  I hope that your visit to Windsor has been
11     enlightening.
12  399                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  It has indeed.
13     --- Off microphone / Sans microphone
14  400                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Certainly, Madam,
15     and it will continue to be so I'm sure.
16  401                  We will turn the microphone over to
17     our next speaker.
18  402                  MR. RHÉAUME:  Our next speaker is
19     Mr. George Crowell.
21  403                  MR. CROWELL:  Thank you.
22  404                  I came to Windsor from the United
23     States back in 1968 in order to teach in the Department
24     of Religious Studies at the university here.  My field
25     is social ethics.  I have been very grateful for the


 1     coverage of public affairs that has been provided by
 2     the CBC.  It is far richer than was available in the
 3     United States.
 4  405                  I remember especially during the
 5     1980s the way in which the CBC provided information
 6     about the United States' interventions in Central
 7     American when there was massive denial of what was
 8     occurring by the U.S. administration and support of
 9     that view almost completely uncritically in a mainline
10     media in the United States.  The CBC position made it
11     clear to us here that we need an independent foreign
12     policy.  I'm very grateful for that kind of
13     contribution.
14  406                  I think especially today it's evident
15     that the CBC's contribution is even more needed because
16     there has been an enormous decline in coverage in the
17     U.S. media of public affairs as they have turned more
18     and more to spending time with entertainers and
19     devoting programs to deal with the private immoralities
20     of all kinds of people.  If anything, we need more
21     coverage of public affairs.
22  407                  I strongly oppose any move toward
23     privatization.  I would like to make the point that if
24     privatization should occur, it would be very difficult
25     for us to go back and to recreate an effective public


 1     broadcasting network.  The NAFTA, the North American
 2     Free Trade Agreement, provides that any private
 3     enterprise which is deprived by the public sector of
 4     opportunities to profit that it has enjoyed in the past
 5     can sue for compensation.  So it would be virtually
 6     impossible under the NAFTA for us to republicize
 7     anything that had been privatized, and that would
 8     include public broadcasting.
 9  408                  My initial understanding of what this
10     hearing was about was to offer us an opportunity to
11     defend the CBC from being dismantled, but I see that
12     among the questions that is asked is:
13                            "In the new millennium, should
14                            the CBC fulfil its role in a
15                            different manner than it has in
16                            the past?"  (As read)
17  409                  I would like to make a suggestion for
18     a creative initiative that might be taken to strengthen
19     broadcasting dealing with public policy.  I suggest
20     that there be a conscious, explicit focus on the issue
21     of global survival.
22  410                  We should all be aware, and the CBC
23     has helped inform us about this, that the human
24     community is under threat from a number of different
25     directions.  We have an exploding population.  Our


 1     resource base is being undermined.  We are distributing
 2     toxic substances into our environment.  The conflicts
 3     that occur can be exacerbated by weapons of mass
 4     destruction.  The human enterprise is in severe danger. 
 5     It seems to me that the CBC could do an enormously
 6     creative service to all of us if it should focus on the
 7     issue of global survival.  I would suggest that it
 8     focus on three basic questions.
 9  411                  The first would be:  What are the
10     conditions that are necessary in order to make it
11     possible for human beings to survive and to thrive on
12     this planet indefinitely into the future, obviously in
13     harmony, not only with each other but also with our
14     environment?
15  412                  Second:  What institutional
16     structures are required if we are to fulfil the
17     conditions that are necessary for our survival?
18  413                  Third:  How do we get from where we
19     are now to where we need to go?
20  414                  Obviously, these are very complicated
21     questions to deal with.
22  415                  I'm also recommending that our
23     university community, beginning here in Windsor,
24     develop a program to focus on those kinds of questions. 
25     I would think that the CBC could help to orchestrate


 1     focusing the attention of people all across Canada on
 2     this issue, giving an opportunity for people in our
 3     education system and in public affairs organizations to
 4     have public forums dealing with these issues, where not
 5     only people with a high degree of expertise like David
 6     Suzuki and many others would have a chance to be heard
 7     but where also forums for ordinary people, even for
 8     grade school children could be developed in order to
 9     focus on these questions.
10  416                  I know that it is very difficult for
11     people to maintain attention in dealing with complex
12     questions, but I think these particular issues are so
13     urgent and indeed can be so exciting that it would be
14     possible to develop very exciting programming focusing
15     on these problems.  Obviously, they are highly
16     controversial and I think it would be very healthy for
17     Canadians and people elsewhere in the world, of course,
18     to debate these questions fully.
19  417                  In the process of debating them, we
20     could draw in the insights of people from other parts
21     of the world, not only from Canada, but people like
22     Vandada Sheba(ph) in India who has had a relationship
23     with Western University who is working to help local
24     farmers in India preserve their local seed varieties
25     from a takeover by corporations that are reducing the


 1     genetic variety of our food crops and threatening our
 2     survival in that way.
 3  418                  So I would just like to recommend a
 4     creative initiative that would strengthen the CBC's
 5     commitment to deal with public affairs.
 6  419                  Thank you.
 7  420                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much
 8     for your comments and suggestions.
 9  421                  Onto our next speaker.
10  422                  M. RHÉAUME:  La prochaine
11     présentation est celle de Mme Mina Grossman-Iani.
12  423                  Nous allons aller then to Susan Haig. 
13     She is not here.
14  424                  Mr. David Palmer.
15  425                  Finally, Mr. Liam McCarthy.
16  426                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  We have said that
17     the session can go until 5:00, therefore, I would like
18     to give a little more time to allow people to arrive.
19  427                  In the meantime, what we will do is
20     take a short break and we will come back and, if others
21     haven't arrived, ask the CBC to make their comments on
22     this part of the day, as they will do again this
23     evening, and if our other speakers have arrived, we
24     will hear them then.
25  428                  We will take a break until 3:25.  I


 1     think it is now 3:15.  Am I fast, slow?
 2     --- Off microphone / Sans microphone
 3  429                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  I'm slow?  Me?
 4     --- Laughter / Rires
 5  430                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  So 3:30.  Is that a
 6     good compromise?  Thank you.
 7  431                  We will see you all here at 3:30 and
 8     we will hear the CBC; if not we will hear our speakers
 9     who are not here at the moment.
10  432                  If anybody sees them -- if you see
11     them, Mr. Carlan, would you let me know, since you seem
12     to know everyone?
13  433                  MR. CARLAN:  (Off microphone/sans
14     microphone...)
15     --- Recess at 1520 / Suspension à 1520
16     --- Upon resuming at 1532 / Reprise à 1532
17  434                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Is there anyone
18     here who was on the schedule for this evening and would
19     like to come forward now?
20  435                  MR. RHÉAUME:  No.
21  436                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  We will wait for
22     this evening.
23  437                  Okay.  Just before we had our break,
24     Mr. Langs asked to speak.  In fact, he was on the list
25     in the other room so I have invited him to the table at


 1     this point.
 2  438                  Following that, Mr. Plexman will
 3     bring a clarification to his comments.
 4  439                  Mr. Langs, if you would state your
 5     full name for the record.
 7  440                  MR. LANGS:  My name is Richard Langs. 
 8     I am a committee of one representing just myself.
 9  441                  Is the CBC important?  Well, as we
10     have heard from so many speakers already, it certainly
11     is, and personally I would go along with that line very
12     quickly.
13  442                  A moment should be used to explain
14     I'm more a radio person than a TV person.  If by
15     government decree, or something else, individuals could
16     only have the use of a radio or a TV, for yours truly
17     the TV would need be sacrificed.  Don't take my radio!
18     --- Laughter / Rires
19  443                  MR. LANGS:  This does not suggest CBC
20     TV isn't important to me.  Labour disputes aside, The
21     National with The Magazine is viewed most evenings. 
22     Whenever possible, the same applies to other
23     programming such as The Fifth Estate, Market Place,
24     Venture, David Suzuki's The Nature of Things, the local
25     news at 11:30 and for sheer entertainment The Air Farce


 1     is certainly hard to beat.
 2  444                  About 80 to 85 per cent of my TV
 3     viewing is spent with these programs.  The other 15 per
 4     cent to 20 per cent perhaps CBS' 60 Minutes, a couple
 5     of dramas plus Global's 11:00 p.m. news.
 6  445                  In Windsor, we are fortunate to have
 7     substantial CBC radio coverage.  Paul Vassey in the
 8     morning and Barbara Peacock in the afternoon do a fine
 9     job, plus all their backup people.
10  446                  In the noon to 2:00 p.m. time slot,
11     Dave Stephens(ph) clues us into news, events and other
12     items of interest to Ontarians.  The CBC's national
13     network provides This Morning, The House, As It
14     Happens, Cross Country Check-up.  Is the information
15     derived from their programming important to Canadians? 
16     Most definitely.
17  447                  Referring to As It Happens, just for
18     a brief second.  I'm amazed at the number of people
19     from our own country and from the United States who
20     phone in at their own expense, not an 800 number, to
21     make a comment about items that they hear on As It
22     Happens.  So our CBC does have a more profound impact
23     than it is sometimes given credit.
24  448                  Would all the good things that we
25     have on CB continue if the CBC disappears?  I don't


 1     think so.  Thus, we have to maintain the CBC and, if
 2     anything, expand it.
 3  449                  Is the CBC perfect?  Far from it. 
 4     Apparently, the CBC brass is planning to implement a
 5     new radio network at a time when regional coverage in
 6     many areas does not exist.  I find it incredulous a
 7     city the size of London does not have a CBC outlet
 8     comparable to what we have in Windsor.
 9  450                  Reductions to take place at three
10     foreign bureaus, a cost-saving measure no doubt
11     underlines the sheer stupidity of a third network at
12     this time.  The reason for such a concept is concern
13     that fewer younger people listen to the CBC.  Should we
14     be surprised at that?
15  451                  Well, for myself the CBC was not
16     discovered by me until my mid-twenties.  Once I became
17     a fully thinking adult, not just by age, I sought out
18     sources of info beyond that available in the press and
19     from private broadcasting.  CBC coverage is distinct. 
20     Quite frankly, I do not like the concentration of
21     ownership in the print and, to a lesser extent perhaps,
22     in private broadcasting.
23  452                  Finally, there are those who maintain
24     the CRCT is no longer required.  The Windsor Star's
25     editorial in the final paragraph said, you know, do


 1     away with you people.  This is not my opinion.  You
 2     folks are, in my opinion, the watchdog of
 3     telecommunications, to ensure that the public is well
 4     served by broadcasters, cable operators and others.
 5  453                  In addition to providing
 6     entertainment, the CBC is also a watchdog in my
 7     opinion.  They scrutinize the actions of government at
 8     all levels and of businesses.  Eliminating or reducing
 9     the scrutiny leads to abuse.  We know that from things
10     we see all the time, the athletic situation we have at
11     the moment.  When this occurs, the public is
12     shortchanged in some manner.
13  454                  Additionally, the politicians who are
14     motivated to truly serve the constituents and those
15     businesses we consider good corporate citizens are
16     smeared by the actions of these few scoundrels.
17  455                  Thanks for providing me the
18     opportunity to present my views.
19  456                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
20     much, Mr. Langs.
21  457                  You can stay with us if you would
22     like at the table or if you have to go --
23  458                  MR. LANGS:  Thank you kindly.  Thank
24     you.  No, not at all.  Thank you.
25  459                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Great.


 1  460                  Mr. Plexman.
 2     PRESENTATION, Continued / PRÉSENTATION, Continuez
 3  461                  MR. PLEXMAN:  My name is
 4     Fred Plexman, as I mentioned previously.
 5  462                  A comment I would like to add to my
 6     previous statement is regarding Radio Two.  The content
 7     is excellent, but I have a problem with poor local
 8     reception especially when I'm in my car, the station
 9     drifts or I get static noise.  It could be my car
10     radio, but I have no other problem with other FM
11     stations so I presume there is something either in the
12     area I'm driving in or poorer equipment broadcasting.
13  463                  Thank you very much.  I just wanted
14     to get this on the record.
15  464                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
16     much.
17  465                  Perhaps we could verify if anybody
18     else has come, who has not spoken, from our list.
19  466                  MR. RHÉAUME:  Certainly.
20  467                  Madame Mina Grossman-Iani, Susan
21     Haig, David Palmer, Liam McCarthy.
22  468                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Is the CBC ready to
23     come to the table?  Mr. Taylor?
24  469                  Thank you.


 1  470                  MR. TAYLOR:  Madam Chair, I simply
 2     want to thank everybody who took the time and the care
 3     to come out and make comments about the services that
 4     we provide today.  Rest assured that we have been
 5     listening and making careful note.
 6  471                  Because of the division into two
 7     rooms, our people representing English radio and
 8     English television, French radio and French television
 9     have been separated, but we will ensure that all of the
10     comments get reflected to the appropriate places; and,
11     even more, we will endeavour to get back to individuals
12     on those specific issues, comments and questions that
13     were raised.
14  472                  I would like to add just one other
15     comment.  I guess it's a humbling experience to sit and
16     listen to these kind of comments, but I guess for those
17     of us who were with the CBC and here through the early
18     1990s, the expression of community support that poured
19     out then was most overwhelming and it continues to be
20     to this day.
21  473                  Thank you.
22  474                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
23     much, Mr. Taylor.
24  475                  As I said previously, we still have
25     some speakers who have not turned up and our schedule


 1     was until 5:00, so I think we will actually stay here a
 2     short while, unless Mr. Palmer, Mr. McCarthy, Ms Haig
 3     or Ms Grossman-Iani have joined us.
 4  476                  If not, I would like to take this
 5     opportunity as well to thank all the participants who
 6     we have seen this afternoon.
 7  477                  As you know, we are seeing an almost
 8     equal number this evening.  It is most impressive to
 9     see you all turning out to offer your comments and we
10     truly appreciate your considered interest in adding to
11     the public record as we look to the upcoming decisions
12     that the CRTC will be making regarding the licence
13     renewals of the CBC Radio-Canada.
14  478                  J'aimerais remercier aussi mon
15     collègue, the court reporter, the technician -- I think
16     we finally got our timing down in terms of who is
17     putting me on air and who is not -- and certainly to
18     all of you.  Thank you very, very much.
19  479                  As I said, with that we will close. 
20     You are welcome to stay, but as well we will stay a
21     little longer in case some of our people turn up and if
22     the CBC could stay, I would appreciate it as well.
23  480                  We will also reconvene at 6:00 p.m.
24     until 10:00 this evening, so if anybody is interested
25     in coming back to hear more, that would be great.


 1     --- Recess at 1540 / Suspension à 1540
 2     --- Upon resuming at 1615 / Reprise à 1615
 3  481                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Welcome.  We are
 4     here to hear what you have to say, so we are not asking
 5     questions.  We have given all the time to hear the
 6     participants throughout the day.  So without further
 7     ado, over to you.
 8  482                  We have set a limit of 10 minutes per
 9     presentation and c'est à peu près tout.  Alors, quand
10     vous serez prête.
11  483                  Mme GROSSMAN-IANI:  Je suis prête.
12  484                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, we actually
13     have a technician who does that and he and I have
14     finally co-ordinated, except I'm talking --
15     --- Laughter / Rires
16  485                  LA PRÉSIDENTE:  Vas-y s'il vous
17     plaît.
19  486                  Mme GROSSMAN-IANI:  Alors, bonjour et
20     bienvenue à Windsor aux membres du CRTC.
21  487                  Nous aimerions d'abord vous remercier
22     d'avoir choisi notre ville pour visiter.  Évidemment,
23     vous auriez eu très tort de ne pas la visiter parce
24     que, comme dit souvent notre maire, Windsor c'est
25     l'endroit -- the place to be.


 1  488                  C'est l'endroit pour plusieurs
 2     raisons.  C'est une des villes manufacturières du
 3     Canada les plus importantes où la technologie est très
 4     avancée, où on est habitué à travailler ensemble, en
 5     partenariat -- ce nom qui est devenu tellement
 6     populaire ces jours-ci -- mais qui est une réalité
 7     quotidienne ici à Windsor.  Finalement, c'est la porte
 8     d'entrée la plus importante entre les États-Unis et le
 9     Canada.  C'est une ville qui célébrera dans deux ans le
10     tricentenaire de l'arrivée des premiers colons d'Europe
11     et ils parlaient français, donc, une ville avec une
12     longue histoire riche, et enfin, une ville culturelle.
13  489                  Yes, you heard right, a cultural
14     city.  We are the sculpture garden capital of Canada. 
15     If you have a chance, you should take a walk by the
16     water and see for yourself one of the most exciting
17     locales for sculpture in the entire world at the
18     confluence of two great cities.
19  490                  We have a thriving amateur theatre
20     community, one of the finest regional art galleries in
21     Canada, a great library system, a first-rank
22     university, and of course an exciting and thrilling
23     symphony orchestra that launches its 1999-2000 series
24     tomorrow at the Capital Theatre.
25  491                  All the reasons I have spoken about


 1     in French, the good reasons you chose to visit our
 2     city, are also reasons why it is important that the CBC
 3     continue to exist and more than exist, continue to
 4     thrive.  It is a very important part of our lives as
 5     Canadians in this microcosm of Canada where we are.
 6  492                  We live beside a media giant.  It is
 7     the most competitive media market in North American;
 8     and I know where of I speak having worked at the CBC
 9     Radio-Canada for 25 years before my retirement in 1997,
10     and now I work for the Windsor Symphony orchestra as
11     its general manager.  I realize more than ever the need
12     for the public broadcaster in radio and in television.
13  493                  Let's take the two medias separately
14     and talk about television first.
15  494                  The CBC originates in Windsor.  For
16     many years, it was the only source of local news. 
17     There are alternatives now and they do a very good job,
18     but none of them has a newscast which originates here.
19  495                  In any case, we need more than one
20     and a unique source of local news on television in
21     Windsor.  There must be room in local television for
22     the private and the public broadcaster.  Most other
23     cities have them, and we need them more than anyone
24     because of our unique situation on the border.
25  496                  Private and CBC have different


 1     mandates and serve the public well in different ways. 
 2     There has been a great deal written about whether we
 3     still need local CBC television stations and I'm not
 4     prepared to comment on the need in other centres. 
 5     However, in Windsor and the surrounding area, there is
 6     no doubt whatsoever about the necessity of a local CBC
 7     television station.  Our dial is dominated by Detroit
 8     newscasts.  We need local news and local cultural
 9     coverage which is impossible on Detroit stations.  We
10     deserve a choice, not just a single service.
11  497                  To answer your specific question
12     about should CBC programming be different from private
13     broadcasters, I think it is.  The CBC has done a great
14     job of bringing Canadian stories to television and they
15     should continue in that vein but they should not become
16     another PBS.
17  498                  Our system is different.  It is
18     partially public and partially private, and I think it
19     should remain that way here where it's a different
20     system than the United States altogether.
21  499                  On the local level, the service to
22     the public is complementary between the two services,
23     between the private.  The private stations are doing a
24     good job in their local coverage even though they are
25     not resident here.


 1  500                  The local CBC goes further, as it
 2     should do, especially in the cultural domain.  It has
 3     done extensive features on the orchestra, its guest
 4     artists, its place within the community, analysis of
 5     the good and the bad points, and always heeds the
 6     public dialogue.  It promotes the efforts of the local
 7     cultural organizations.  It is of supreme importance to
 8     us here on the border, and it also presents a huge
 9     opportunity of exposure of Canadian culture and local
10     culture in particular to the huge market of American
11     viewers who appreciate the high calibre of the CBC
12     programs.
13  501                  There are many viewers who live in
14     Detroit and are more aware of Canada because of the CBC
15     and television.  We know that because they tell us so,
16     and we should do more to promote Canadian artists and
17     culture to the American audience.
18  502                  No artistic organization can do this
19     on its own, and believe me I know.  We are a showcase
20     of Canadian talent at the Windsor Symphony and yet it
21     is very, very difficult and financially prohibitive for
22     us to try and pierce that American market.  But, in
23     partnership with the Canadian media, especially the CBC
24     which is there to provide service, we could accomplish
25     a great deal.  We could certainly do a great deal more


 1     than we are doing now.
 2  503                  If there were any criticism to make
 3     of the television service it would be that the local
 4     newscast is not long enough.  There should be
 5     60 minutes at the supper hour.  We do not need a
 6     60 minute broadcast about local Toronto news at
 7     6:00 p.m.
 8  504                  Because our local newscast lasts only
 9     30 minutes and it is the only local programming there
10     is these days on the CBC -- we used to have a lot
11     more -- cultural matters usually take the short end of
12     the stick when it comes to line up.  I do understand
13     these are difficult choices to make, but there would be
14     less difficulty if we had 60 minutes of local news. 
15     There is no shortage of events and issues to cover.
16  505                  The National seems to be an endless
17     repeat, making those of us who miss the local news at
18     5:30 stay up until 11:25 to find out what has happened
19     in our community.  This is a disastrous programming
20     choice, in my opinion.  The choice to repeat The
21     National yet again at 11:00 p.m. is another sacrifice
22     of the local viewer to compete and lose a rating
23     slugfest with Lloyd Robertson.
24  506                  In summary, I think we need more
25     local CBC television, not less.


 1  507                  L'importance de Radio-Canada pour la
 2     communauté francophone de la région ne peut être
 3     exagérée.  Si nous sommes baignés dans une mer de
 4     médias américains, les francophones le sont d'autant
 5     plus dans la mer d'anglophonie et de médias
 6     anglophones.  La communauté francophone de la région a
 7     toute mon admiration pour sa ténacité d'exister et même
 8     de fleurir 300 ans après l'arrivée du Sieur Lamothe
 9     Cadillac(ph) dans des conditions pas toujours idéales. 
10     Je parle de la communauté francophone et non pas du
11     Sieur.
12     --- Laughter / Rires
13  508                  Mme GROSSMAN-IANI:  Mais, et là je
14     l'écris en noir -- très noir -- nous avons besoin de
15     RDI ici.  Vous devriez le mandater comme vous l'avez
16     fait pour TVA.  C'est encore plus important que TVA...
17     TVA c'est très bien aussi.  Il ne faudra pas l'enlever. 
18     Il faut ajouter... il faut forcer le service local de
19     le présenter.
20  509                  Nous attendons depuis des années son
21     arrivée.  On pensait qu'avec l'achat du cablôdiffuseur
22     local par Cogeco qu'on aurait eu le service.  On ne l'a
23     pas et les gens se plaignent.  Plusieurs s'en plaignent
24     et je sais que les gens m'en ont parlé.  Ils m'en ont
25     parlé ça fait longtemps, mais tout est en vain.  Alors,


 1     moi je trouve que c'est un gros manque ici.
 2  510                  Now to radio.
 3  511                  Both local and national, French and
 4     English are important to me, personally as a listener
 5     and also as a manager of a cultural institution.  Our
 6     local coverage on radio is excellent.  I am sure that
 7     when our first CD is recorded, we will have much air
 8     play on our local airwaves -- n'est-ce-pas, Bruce?
 9  512                  Our concerts and special events are
10     announced and covered.  The audience for most symphony
11     concerts resembles very closely the listeners at the
12     CBC.  It's a very good partnership.
13  513                  Once again, there are many listeners
14     in the Detroit area and it is to the advantage of
15     Canadian artists to be exposed to that large American
16     audience, both on the national and on the local
17     perspective.
18  514                  I have a criticism of one area.  It
19     may be something that is -- I don't know if the CRTC is
20     aware of it, but on the communications side there has
21     been a recent tendency to try and negotiate exclusive
22     sponsorships with some cultural organizations.  I knew
23     about it.  It was a policy when I was there as well.  I
24     understand the reasons for it.
25  515                  The CBC doesn't want to be taken for


 1     granted.  They want to receive the recognition they
 2     feel they deserve.  But it is a hardship for
 3     organizations like the Windsor Symphony Orchestra.  We
 4     need contact with all media and not just the CBC.  The
 5     private media have been doing an excellent job of
 6     covering our events as well and they should be
 7     encouraged to do so and we should not be penalized for
 8     that.
 9  516                  It's very, very strange to me that
10     the CBC will only promote the concerts they sponsor. 
11     They will not promote our POPS concert, for example,
12     which was sponsored by the local competition, the
13     private radio station.  However, the competition does
14     promote our classics concerts.  So I think the CBC is
15     going a little far in its strategy.  It is a public
16     service.  It should promote all our concerts whether
17     they sponsor them or not.
18  517                  One of the most ridiculous things
19     about CBC radio is the fact that it -- this is the
20     English radio -- is the fact that it closes down at
21     6:00 p.m. on Friday night and doesn't open again until
22     Monday morning at whatever time.
23  518                  The local CBC station is our
24     bidirectional microphone to the rest of the musical
25     world in Canada.  It's very, very important.  The fact


 1     that they are part of a network, they can make sure our
 2     stories about the orchestra and about life in general
 3     here, they can make sure that these are heard in the
 4     rest of the country.  The fact is that the local CBC
 5     station, as a part of this network, is a very great
 6     advantage.  They also inform us, the national network,
 7     so much about the life of the arts and the rest of the
 8     country and the world.
 9  519                  There are too few Canadian voices on
10     our dial -- if you have done our radio dial, and if you
11     haven't you definitely should do it.  It is the most
12     amazing radio dial you have ever heard.  There are just
13     hundreds of stations from it.  There is one French
14     voice and there is one public broadcasting voice as the
15     calibre of the CBC.  There is national public radio,
16     but it doesn't compare to our Canadian Broadcasting
17     Corporation and it is a very important service we have
18     here.
19  520                  There used to be considerable
20     resources devoted to recording local orchestras.  Now
21     these recordings are too few and far between.
22  521                  For example, this February we
23     presented an all Canadian program.  It was a very
24     ambitious undertaking and most orchestras would not do
25     it on their main series, but we did it.  All Canadian


 1     program, all Canadian soloists.  Right up the CBC's
 2     alley for recording.  It was in February, the end of
 3     their budget time.  They didn't have any money to
 4     record it and it is just a big shame really.
 5  522                  I know the budgets have been
 6     shrinking, but some of the choices that are being made
 7     are not necessarily in favour of small but very high
 8     calibre professional orchestras like ours, so there is
 9     less money spent on regional orchestras.  I think it is
10     a huge mistake, you know, to record the Toronto
11     Symphony Orchestra.  They have all sorts of recordings
12     and are going to make more.  The Montreal Symphony
13     Orchestra as well.
14  523                  The only chance for smaller
15     orchestras like ours is usually the public broadcaster. 
16     They have promised us, however, to record something
17     next season, so we are optimistic.
18  524                  Je vais parler un petit peu de CBEF
19     maintenant.  Comme une radio locale, c'est un outil
20     essentiel pour l'épanouissement de la communauté
21     francophone de notre région.  C'est une radio qui
22     couvre la vie culturelle de façon excellente parce
23     qu'en français, nous savons que la survie ça passe par
24     la culture.  La station est près de sa communauté et
25     comprend ses besoins, plus encore qu'en anglais.


 1  525                  La station cherche des occasions de
 2     sortir dans la communauté pour refléter les activités
 3     des divers groupes.  Elle travaille avec le monde
 4     scolaire et d'autres groupes culturels pour reconnaître
 5     le dynamisme des gens.  En même temps, elle garde sa
 6     crédibilité journalistique qui est une de ses marques
 7     de commerce.
 8  526                  Alors, en conclusion, merci pour
 9     l'opportunité de vous adresser la parole et j'aimerais
10     réitérer l'importance de Radio-Canada dans la vie des
11     gens de la région.
12  527                  We need more CBC, not less, and we
13     especially need more local programming.
14  528                  Thank you.
15  529                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
16     much.
17  530                  Susan.
19  531                  MS HAIG:  I'm Susan Haig, the
20     Artistic Director of the Windsor Symphony Orchestra.  I
21     will speak informally.
22  532                  I'm impressed with Mina's ability to
23     do this report and to have a season announcement of our
24     next season tomorrow morning at 9:30.
25  533                  This is my thirteenth year in Canada. 


 1     I started out with the Canadian Opera Company in
 2     Toronto and then spent three years as the Staff
 3     Conductor of the Calgary Philharmonic Orchestra before
 4     coming to Windsor eight years ago.  The CBC has been a
 5     very significant part of my whole artistic experience,
 6     both personally as an artist and in understanding the
 7     artistry of Canada and I continue to be grateful for
 8     its existence and intrigued by its potential to further
 9     a vital culture, especially in a greatly changing
10     environment.
11  534                  I want to say what I have experienced
12     recently with the private networks, because I have been
13     very pleased by the changes toward arts and culture
14     that I have experienced in Windsor.  I will start with
15     private radio.
16  535                  As this city has changed in its
17     attitude towards arts, arts has become much more a part
18     of community life.  They have changed quite instantly
19     so that three or four years ago one of the private
20     radio stations began doing a live arts update on
21     Tuesday mornings about seven to 10 minutes a morning. 
22     Last year we were enjoying 10 minutes a week of
23     orchestra notes.  This was on private radio.
24  536                  MR. RHÉAUME:  Excuse me.  Could you
25     move your microphone away a little bit.


 1  537                  MS HAIG:  Sure.  Sure.  Sorry about
 2     that.
 3  538                  MR. RHÉAUME:  I apologize.
 4  539                  MS HAIG:  There have been informal
 5     interviews.  There have been regular features.  I have
 6     had 25-minute interviews.  We have had this Tuesday
 7     morning live update.  So I think there is a big change
 8     there.  If CBC didn't exist, I think we would kind of
 9     lope along and the public would find out something
10     about arts.
11  540                  Despite the fact that that has been
12     happening, I do feel that there is an essential and
13     exciting role for CBC and a new role in the new
14     millennium.  I see changes happening, perhaps a little
15     more gradually than I would like, but I see great
16     changes in attitudes in CBC.
17  541                  Now I will go back to the
18     relationship I have enjoyed for the last seven years
19     here.  A personal one.  Many lively conversations. 
20     Many visits to the CBC bureau.  Many interviews. 
21     Ticket giveaways.  CBC hosts at our concerts.  CBC
22     reporters experiencing our concerts as part of the
23     audience and talking about it later.  This has been
24     invigorating.
25  542                  I think that the potential is perhaps


 1     double and triple for us to do more.  I think the
 2     biggest change would be thinking of the CBC as a
 3     collaborator with not-for-profit organizations now in
 4     creating a vital culture.  I think the old way of
 5     looking at it was that CBC was the big father producer
 6     from the urban centres and perhaps there was a time
 7     when that was appropriate in Canada.  But as Canada is
 8     coming of age culturally, there is a great diversity of
 9     activity, a diversification of activity, a much greater
10     fratility on the local level and just a greater
11     abundance of artists.
12  543                  I must say, in my years of being in
13     Canada I don't know if I'm staggered more by the number
14     of fantastic performers for a country this size that
15     are working all over the world or by the lack of
16     awareness of these artists by the broader public.  I
17     don't know which is more staggering.  I think that it's
18     a good news and a bad news thing, because I think it is
19     extraordinary the number of singers and the number of
20     young performers.
21  544                  What I love to see CBC adopt in a
22     continually changing mindset -- and I again say that I
23     see that it is changing and I think it is very
24     exciting -- I believe that it can maximize public
25     access to Canadian ideas, whereas the private networks


 1     could do some.  But CBC could be the forward edge, they
 2     could be the cutting edge through more in depth
 3     conversations with artists.  I think the CBC could
 4     maximize public awareness of cultural activity.  Again,
 5     the private networks will do some awareness, but CBC
 6     could do more.
 7  545                  The most critical, I think, the
 8     critical role and the critical opportunity, is that the
 9     CBC could create public familiarity with Canadian
10     artists, thinkers, authors and creators.  Now, this is
11     where I have been most frustrated in the tendency to
12     reflect the networks, to reflect the mainstream.  The
13     CBC has also waited until artists are recognized
14     elsewhere.
15  546                  I personally experienced a funny
16     thing.
17  547                  Once I had been interviewed by the
18     Toronto Star as a kind of up-and-coming artist and
19     they -- you know, I have looked for months -- and,
20     finally, five months after the performance that they
21     were talking about, an article appeared in the Toronto
22     Star, "Susan Haig:  Up-and-coming conductor".  Right
23     away there were calls from CBC for an interview.  Now,
24     why was CBC waiting until -- it meant that they were
25     reading the Toronto Star and getting their material


 1     from that, whereas they should know me.  They should be
 2     the ones putting it forward.  It was very interesting.
 3  548                  So if the CBC took the first step to
 4     create that familiarity by having a more hands-on
 5     connection to artists, I think they could then be the
 6     leader, that they would then be reflected by other
 7     media.  I think that would be an exciting role.
 8  549                  I'm happy to see some other changing
 9     assumptions and, again, it's slow, it's slow going.  I 
10     mean, there has been a strong CBC culture and one of
11     the aspects of that has been a split between arts and
12     news.  I mean, I think that happened early in radio. 
13     There were the newscasters and then there was the
14     cultural side.
15  550                  But the more that's integrated the
16     better.  It is very exciting to see arts being looked
17     at as news.  Art is news.  I would like to see the two
18     words thrown together, although if you put them
19     together too quickly it's "artsnooze" which isn't going
20     to do anybody any good.  But I think that arts as news
21     is something we should capitalize on.
22  551                  I'm glad to be seeing a broadening
23     conception of arts as all arts activity.  I think the
24     distinction between high and low is antiquated, is
25     false and is something we should all throw out.  The


 1     more the general public understands that it's a mix of
 2     public activity, the better.  I think that the FM
 3     Morning Show is showing that very well.  Just a great
 4     mix of music.
 5  552                  Also I would like to see a continuing
 6     redefinition of "culture" as an activity of the people,
 7     not as an industry.  I think the view of cultural
 8     industries as culture has been absolutely dominant in
 9     Canada and I just don't understand why it continues and
10     why it is not questioned.  I think this means we have
11     been looking in the wrong places to protect industries
12     rather than to foster activity and this is again where
13     CBC can be so, so effective in fostering local
14     activity.
15  553                  I believe that an authentic national
16     culture arises from authentic and vigorous activity in
17     a local, and the greater degree to which that is
18     enhanced and affirmed now by the central networks the
19     better, and I think that is where their role can be
20     most exciting.
21  554                  I agree with Mina.  One thing that
22     must change is CBC must live for the weekends.  The
23     weekend is when a national cultural life intensifies
24     naturally.  Instead, CBC seems to have adapted itself
25     to the workaday world and adopted a schedule that


 1     reflects the marketplace.  In going home on the
 2     weekends, it hasn't been there when a locale is
 3     creating.
 4  555                  I think that Monday should be this
 5     great thrilling round up of reportage:  What went on
 6     over the weekend; what happened here; what did we hear;
 7     who was there; what did they sound like; what were
 8     their ideas?  If it can be restructured in such a way
 9     that some people work primarily on weekends and it
10     doesn't cost more to have a camera available Saturday
11     night, then of course there would be a greater degree
12     of reflection activity.
13  556                  Again, as I said, what can public
14     broadcasting do that the private broadcasters can't do? 
15     I think that, again, it gets down to being at the
16     creative edge.  The private broadcasters will
17     necessarily focus on pretested products.  The CBC can
18     take risks with what is new and creative.
19  557                  As an orchestral conductor, we are
20     always doing research and development.  Every single
21     concert is untested.  Every single one is a risk:  it's
22     a new interpretation, it's a new format, it's a new
23     program, it's a new combination of works, it's a new
24     Canadian artist that we haven't worked with.  So there
25     is a risk in that.


 1  558                  But the CBC, as the public
 2     broadcaster, could believe in that risk taking and say
 3     "We are going to put it out there anyway, before we
 4     have heard it."  That would create the old excitement
 5     of live radio, live TV, not knowing, the unexpected.
 6  559                  I also believe the CBC could be
 7     fostering public life, fostering citizenship and
 8     encouraging its citizens to be engaged in community
 9     life.  I never got the sense that there was any clarity
10     as to whether CBC ultimately wanted people to be home
11     watching the news at nine o'clock or out at the school
12     board meetings.  I think that there has to be an
13     awareness that the more citizens are engaged in public
14     life the better, and scheduling around that is an
15     important thing.
16  560                  Finally, I want to say that I think
17     that the whole group at Windsor has been tremendous. 
18     The bureau is full or usually full of extremely
19     interesting, creative, questioning people.  I have
20     enjoyed the conversations with them.  I would just like
21     to have more contact with them.  I would like to have
22     constant contact with them.
23  561                  I think that in Windsor we have a
24     particularly exciting potential.  I don't know if you
25     will have time to walk six blocks down toward the


 1     bridge before you leave and circle around that area,
 2     but we have a potential west downtown cultural district
 3     that could be extraordinary on the border of Canada. 
 4     There is going to be a new art gallery there.  There is
 5     a whole campusy potential feel for that area of town if
 6     we also got a museum, some sort of music hall.  I won't
 7     go into -- you know, no conflict of interest there.
 8  562                  But CBC is perfectly positioned
 9     adjacent to this area.  I would love to see in four
10     years constant innovative programs that are created
11     here with cameras, with microphones right in there. 
12     Quick talk that week.  Not something totally
13     prescripted, but experimental.  I think as the border,
14     we should be a great border showcase, just typing all
15     the Canadian artists right into the states.
16  563                  I think it could happen and I would
17     love to see it happen.
18  564                  Thank you very much.
19  565                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
20     much, Ms Haig.  Thank you both for being here.
21  566                  Mister --
22  567                  MR. PALMER:  David Palmer.
23  568                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  -- David Palmer.
24  569                  Mr. Palmer, as my colleague may have
25     explained, we had such a good participation here that


 1     we split the list today so we came up to the end of the
 2     list a little earlier than planned.  So there were many
 3     more people in the room, not to give you the impression
 4     that no one came today.
 5  570                  I'm Joan Pennefather, I'm a
 6     Commissioner; and Barbara Cam is a Commissioner; and
 7     our legal counsel, Donald Rhéaume.
 8  571                  In my earlier remarks, as I said also
 9     to Ms Grossman and Ms Haig, we are here to hear what
10     you have to say so we are not asking questions.  To
11     give everybody the maximum time we did ask to keep
12     remarks until around 10 minutes.  We are here to hear
13     what you have to say about the CBC, your expectations
14     and views.
15  572                  So without further ado.
17  573                  MR. PALMER:  First of all, I thank
18     you for this opportunity.
19  574                  Music at the University of Windsor
20     very much appreciates the opportunity to speak about
21     its concerns with the Canadian Broadcasting
22     Corporation.
23  575                  I should say that I have talked with
24     Ms Haig yesterday about her presentation and her, I
25     think, fullness of ideas and eloquence in expressing


 1     them I think are all aspects that we endorse.  It's
 2     very, very exciting to work with Ms Haig as a colleague
 3     in our music activities here.
 4  576                  Overall, in both television and
 5     radio, we would affirm that the CBC should be doing
 6     what private broadcasters cannot or will not do, that
 7     is, provide a commercial-free presentation of the most
 8     interesting television and radio material that the
 9     country has to offer from all parts of the country. 
10     This needn't be limited to so-called highbrow material. 
11     It should include a broad spectrum of music and drama,
12     especially given the countries growing ethnic mix, a
13     wider celebration of the cultures in the country would
14     be welcome.
15  577                  Personally, a program I enjoyed a few
16     years ago was hosted by Sal Ferrarus(ph) in Vancouver
17     and featured music with Latin American and African
18     roots.  I also think of Marcel Beneteau who is
19     pioneering work and researching and recording the music
20     of the francophone community of this area and was
21     partially sponsored by the CBC.  We applaud that kind
22     of thing.
23  578                  MME GROSSMAN-IANI:  Radio-Canada.
24  579                  MR. PALMER:  Radio-Canada.  Of
25     course.  My apologize.


 1     --- Laughter / Rires
 2  580                  MME GROSSMAN-IANI:  No, no.  It's
 3     just a little joke.
 4  581                  MR. PALMER:  In the medium of radio,
 5     we feel that the CBC does fulfil its mandate to the
 6     best of its resources and shudder at the prospect of
 7     cultural life in Canada without it, even taking into
 8     account the unpredictability of the current
 9     programming.
10  582                  We would like to acknowledge the
11     media sponsorship by the local CBC in advertising
12     university-produced concerts in return for a promotion
13     in our program booklets.
14  583                  Certainly, I would endorse Ms Haig's
15     comments about the local CBC and how supportive and
16     encouraging they have been in promoting local events.
17  584                  That being said, we would like to
18     express a concern about the classical music program. 
19     We would wish for more time given to concerts featuring
20     Canadian artists who represent less frequently heard
21     regions of the country.  Over many years now, my
22     colleagues and I have attended programs in this area
23     that we thought deserving of wider dissemination in
24     terms of excellence of performance, remarkability of
25     repertoire and/or significance topically.


 1  585                  Often we have said to one another,
 2     "Isn't it too bad this concert couldn't have been
 3     broadcast?"  The growing number of such high-level
 4     performances presented in this region must truly
 5     correspond to concerts given in similar centres in the
 6     country, that is, remote enough from CBC production
 7     centres to prove too costly to travel to for broadcast
 8     purposes, which results we feel in an atypical
 9     representation of the concert offerings in the country.
10  586                  It is apparent however that budget
11     cuts to the CBC are affecting its ability, in radio
12     particularly, to fulfil its mandate.  It's noteworthy
13     that in recent years evening Radio One programming has
14     given over more and more to repeat broadcasts or to
15     DJ-type shows at that time of the night, for instance. 
16     Even Ideas, the program Ideas, is doing more and more
17     repeat programming.  The main afternoon show,
18     Richardson's Roundup, is almost entirely made up of
19     repeat material.  We lost local weekend programming
20     some time ago, as Ms Haig mentioned, and so on.
21  587                  The present climate and increase in
22     local concert pick-up, as mentioned earlier, might seem
23     like a pipe dream, especially when CBC is now talking
24     about Radio Three for younger audiences.
25  588                  So in conclusion, we feel that


 1     clearly the CBC needs more funding and not less.
 2  589                  Thank you again.
 3  590                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Thank
 4     you for coming, Mr. Palmer.  Thank you both for coming.
 5  591                  As I explained also earlier, we
 6     invite the CBC to come to the table at the end of the
 7     presentations to make any comments they wish to make. 
 8     They did so earlier, but I would invite Mr. Taylor back
 9     if he wanted to offer reflection on your remarks.
11  592                  MR. TAYLOR:  Reflection might lead to
12     debate on some of the remarks.  I will refrain.
13  593                  I would like to simply thank
14     Mr. Palmer, Susan and Mina for their comments, and the
15     Commission for the opportunity.
16  594                  Even though my responsibilities are
17     limited to television these days, please be assured
18     that your comments, challenges and suggestions will be
19     carried forward to all of my colleagues, both in
20     English and French radio and French television.
21  595                  Thank you very much.
22  596                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
23     much.
24  597                  I think that draws this portion of
25     the public consultation to a close.  Thank you all. 


 1     Thank you again to our technical crew and to my
 2     colleagues and to the participants for joining us
 3     today.
 4  598                  We reconvene again at 6:00 until
 5     10:00 this evening, and you are most welcome to join us
 6     if you wish to continue to hear the comments.
 7  599                  Thank you.
 8     --- Recess at 1645 / Suspension à 1645
 9     --- Upon resuming at 1647 / Reprise à 1647
10  600                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  All right.  Antonio
11     Dominato.
12  601                  MS DOMINATO:  Antonia --
13  602                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Antonia.
14  603                  MS DOMINATO:  Antonia Dominato.
15  604                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  -- Dominato.
16  605                  MS DOMINATO:  Right.
18  606                  MS DOMINATO:  First of all, what
19     happened to Adrienne Clarkson?  Replacement for
20     Peter Gzowski is dreadful.  Those two people -- you
21     know, Peter Gzowski was working.  So when these two
22     came on they said, "Oh, no, no, it's not going to
23     follow the same pattern as Peter Gzowski.  We are going
24     to do our own thing."
25  607                  If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 


 1     That's my attitude.  And I have tried and tried to
 2     listen to them and they turn me right off.
 3  608                  Rita MacNeil, why was she let go
 4     after three years?  Tommy Hunter, Front Page Challenge.
 5  609                  Let's face it, the majority of the
 6     people that listen to these programs and watch TV,
 7     these programs, are the seniors, are the ones that are
 8     a little older.  The young people, they have all kinds
 9     of stations in Detroit to listen to.  If you have the
10     pipe dream that you are going to draw all these young
11     kids, I'm afraid you have got -- because the majority
12     that listen to this are your seniors or the
13     mid-seniors.
14  610                  First of all, up here with
15     Peter Gzowski, the kids are all in school or they have
16     jobs or whatever, or other people have jobs, so they
17     are not going to be listening to him.  I know
18     Peter Gzowski left on his own, but my God you must have
19     had better people than the two that you did hire.
20  611                  Tommy Hunter, really wonderful.  They
21     brought in musicians.
22  612                  Rita MacNeil.  Now, if you want to
23     appeal to young people, she was bringing unknown bands. 
24     So you got Rita MacNeil which drew in the older group. 
25     Then, the younger group, when they heard that all these


 1     bands were coming, they zoomed in.
 2  613                  I mean, whoever makes these
 3     decisions, you often wonder.  I'm still madder than
 4     hell about in 1990 when we lost CBC local news for four
 5     years.
 6  614                  Now, the other one that's really
 7     bugging me is CBC news comes on at ten o'clock with
 8     Peter Mansbridge.  Great.  Then what's -- I can't try
 9     to think of the name of the program after that. 
10     It's -- oh, you know, the little tidbits that they do
11     on it.  Is it The National?  What is it?
12  615                  MR. TAYLOR:  The Magazine.
13  616                  MS DOMINATO:  The Magazine.  That's
14     it, dear.
15  617                  That's fine.  I'm not objecting to
16     that.  I love that.  That 10 hour to 11 hour is fine
17  618                  But then why in God's name do you
18     have to bring back Peter Mansbridge at 11:00?  We just
19     saw him at ten o'clock.  So what do we have to do in
20     the local area?  We have to wait until 11:30 to see our
21     local news and see a repeat of ten o'clock.  That is
22     stupid.  The bigwigs up in Toronto or Ottawa, wherever
23     the decisions are made, are crazy.  They are not
24     thinking of us.
25  619                  I love Peter Mansbridge.  Okay.  We


 1     don't want to get rid of him.  Then we have the -- what
 2     is it again?
 3  620                  MR. TAYLOR:  The Magazine.
 4  621                  MS DOMINATO:  The Magazine.
 5  622                  I'm getting old.  I'm 70-years old,
 6     but I'm still madder than hell about some things, I'll
 7     tell you.
 8  623                  The Magazine.  Okay.  And then to
 9     bring Peter Mansbridge back -- can't you see what I'm
10     talking about?  And then we have to sit around here
11     until 11:30 waiting for our local news, because I'm
12     such a news junkie and I have told them before when I'm
13     out and about doing my things I tape it.  I tape the
14     5:30 news.  I tape what used to be the eleven o'clock
15     news, but now it's 11:30.  And Midday, my God, I can't
16     miss Midday.  I just love Midday.  I would tape that.
17  624                  Again, who is watching Midday?  They
18     are doing a wonderful program, but you have to keep in
19     mind it's hard to get the young people to tune in. 
20     They have already established their listening habits. 
21     They are with the American stations because we are
22     flooded with the American stations.  They are listening
23     to others, okay?  They have the university things and
24     so on.
25  625                  That's about what really bugs me.


 1  626                  And I love CBC, and I certainly don't
 2     want commercials.  Forget it.  We have been known for
 3     non-commercial TV, non-commercial radio.  I certainly
 4     don't want that.
 5  627                  Of course we have a wonderful guy,
 6     Bruce knows that, it's Paul Vassey.  He is super. 
 7     Don't you dare take him away from us unless you are
 8     offering him more money and he wants to leave us.  But
 9     he is wonderful.
10  628                  I wake up in the morning and I reach
11     over and turn on the radio at six o'clock.  All three
12     radios in my apartment are on CBC.  I don't know what
13     is going on on the others.  And the same in my car, CBC
14     AM and FM.
15  629                  Sheila Rogers.  Everybody was hoping
16     she would replace Peter Gzowski because she had been on
17     with Peter Gzowski.  They were the same type.  They
18     were the kind that you wanted to listen to.  Well, you
19     give us this other guy -- what's his name?  And then
20     Averil.  They are terrible.  I'm sure you must have
21     gotten many complaints, at least letters to the editor
22     that I have read and columns by columnists from the
23     Globe and Mail and Toronto Star.  You know?  You can't
24     compare them.
25  630                  There must have been better


 1     personalities you could have hired than those two to
 2     replace Peter Gzowski, because, oh God, Peter Gzowski
 3     was talking to guys in their air conditioned
 4     tractor-trailers out on the farm.  You would be
 5     listening to some truck driver, you would be listening
 6     to some woman in her kitchen.  And I miss listening to
 7     the people from the north, the Inuits.  He had such a
 8     wonderful rapport with those people up there that were
 9     running the radio stations.  Oh.  Really I felt so
10     Canadian when I was listening to him.  I really did. 
11     He just made you feel wonderful.
12  631                  I know we can't replace
13     Peter Gzowski, but there must have been some better
14     than -- I'm sorry, but there must have been some.
15  632                  But those were my beefs and I
16     thought, well, I'll try and say my two cents just to
17     you people and if not I was going to write it down and
18     give it to you in the mail, but I have written down the
19     points here.
20  633                  You really made a mistake in letting
21     go Adrienne Clarkson.  I don't know when she is on.  I
22     can't find her.  I check my TV Guide every night and I
23     don't see her.  She was wonderful.  The programs, the
24     music and the art.
25  634                  That was another one, Arts &


 1     Entertainment on Sundays, you know?  I don't know who
 2     the bigwigs are that make these decisions, but I'm very
 3     unhappy.  The only one I'm happy with is Paul Vassey. 
 4     He is a good, familiar voice, you know, Bruce?  And
 5     then these other people that they have brought in and
 6     then the wonderful TV programs.
 7  635                  This is what you have to remember,
 8     that it's, you know, our age group, the seniors, okay,
 9     and the ones in their fifties that were listening to
10     these things.  To try to jazz it all up, you know, I
11     don't know if you are going to get that many young
12     people to switch to us.
13  636                  I did read an article that this
14     person is a faithful follower of CBC.  Why?  Because at
15     home when she was a child CBC radio was on all the time
16     and it just grew into her system.  So now as an adult,
17     as a mother, a homemaker at home, she has CBC.  The
18     kids might not like it, but she says it stays on CBC.
19  637                  And just to be a little personal. 
20     When I was growing up my dear dad, God bless him, would
21     lie down on the couch on Sunday afternoons listening to
22     Texaco live from the Metropolitan Opera.  That's how I
23     got to love opera because we would go over, thinking he
24     was asleep, we were going to switch the channel. 
25     "Don't touch that radio."  And we didn't.  So every


 1     Saturday afternoon we were listening to the
 2     Metropolitan Opera live from New York, from Texaco, you
 3     know.
 4  638                  So that's what I had to say.
 5  639                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, thank you. 
 6     Thank you for --
 7  640                  MS DOMINATO:  But I do hope you get
 8     that message across to the bigwigs.  They are the --
 9  641                  MR. TAYLOR:  I will take it back to
10     them --
11  642                  MS DOMINATO:  You will, too, eh,
12     dear?
13  643                  MR. TAYLOR:  Yes.
14  644                  MS DOMINATO:  He knows how hard I
15     fought for the CBC, out there in the cold in December. 
16     "Sign the petition!  Save our station!"
17     --- Laughter / Rires
18  645                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
19     much.
20  646                  MS DOMINATO:  You're welcome.  Nice
21     to be -- and thank you for listening.  I was afraid for
22     a minute that you were going to kick me out because the
23     time was up.
24  647                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  No.  That's not why
25     we are here.


 1     --- Recess at 1700 / Suspension à 1700
 2     --- Upon resuming at 1800 / Reprise à 1800
 3  648                  LA PRÉSIDENTE:  Alors, je pense qu'on
 4     va commencer.  I think we will start our session.
 5  649                  Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. 
 6     Welcome to this public consultation on the CBC.
 7  650                  My name is Joan Pennefather.  I'm a
 8     Commissioner at the CRTC.  As you have already noticed,
 9     my colleague, Barbara Cram, who is also a Commissioner,
10     is in the next room.  We have had such an excellent
11     response here in Windsor that we have divided the group
12     into two as we did this afternoon.
13  651                  We are here to gather your views and
14     comments on CBC radio and television.
15  652                  In your opinion, how should the
16     Canadian Broadcasting Corporation fulfil its role in
17     the coming years?
18  653                  The CBC is a national public service,
19     broadcasting in English as well as in French.  It plays
20     an important role in the Canadian Broadcasting system.
21  654                  Today, many elements are constantly
22     being added to the broadcasting system as new
23     technologies multiply, converge, open up new horizons
24     and increasingly offer new services.  In this context,
25     we want to know what are your needs and expectations as


 1     viewers and listeners of the CBC.
 2  655                  Nous sommes ici pour recueillir vos
 3     points de vue et vos commentaires sur la radio et la
 4     télévision de Radio-Canada.  Comment croyez-vous que
 5     Radio-Canada devrait remplir son rôle dans les années à
 6     venir?  Voilà le genre de questions auxquelles nous
 7     voulons entendre vos réponses.
 8  656                  Il est très important pour le Conseil
 9     d'entendre ce que vous avez à dire à ce sujet.  Il ne
10     faut pas oublier que le CRTC est un organisme public au
11     service des citoyens et citoyennes.  À ce titre, il a
12     une responsabilité envers eux.  C'est pourquoi mes
13     collègues-conseillers et moi-même trouvons essentiel de
14     venir vous rencontrer.
15  657                  Nous sommes donc présents dans onze
16     villes canadiennes du 9 au 18 mars inclusivement pour
17     tenir cette série de consultations régionales d'un bout
18     à l'autre du pays.
19  658                  It is indeed very important that the
20     Commission hears what you have to say.  We must not
21     lose sight of the fact that the CRTC is a public
22     organization that serves Canadian citizens.  In this
23     capacity, we are responsible to you.  This is why my
24     fellow Commissioners and myself find it vital to come
25     and meet with you to discuss these issues and why we


 1     are holding this series of regional consultations, from
 2     one end of the country to the other, in 11 Canadian
 3     cities, from March 9 to March 18 inclusive.
 4  659                  These consultations are designed to
 5     give you a chance, on the eve of the new millennium, to
 6     express your opinion on the CBC's role, the programming
 7     it offers and the direction it should take at the
 8     national, regional and local levels.
 9  660                  Through these consultations we hope
10     to enter into an open dialogue with you and to hear
11     your concerns.  Your comments will form part of the
12     public record which will be added to the record of the
13     public hearing on the CBC that will begin in Hull next
14     May 25th.
15  661                  At this upcoming hearing in May, the
16     Commission will examine the CBC's application for the
17     renewal of its licences including radio, television and
18     its specialty services, Newsworld and Réseau de
19     l'information.  You can also take part in that public
20     hearing by sending your written comments to the CRTC. 
21     If you wish to do so, please remember to refer to the
22     specific licence renewals being examined when you file
23     your comments.
24  662                  Tous vos commentaires feront partie
25     du dossier public.  Il sera lui-même ajouté à celui de


 1     l'audience publique qui s'ouvrira à Hull le 25 mai
 2     prochain.  C'est au cours de cette audience que le
 3     Conseil étudiera les demandes pour renouveler les
 4     licences de radio et de télévision de Radio-Canada
 5     ainsi que de ses services spécialisés:  RDI et
 6     Newsworld.
 7  663                  Vous pouvez aussi participer à cette
 8     audience en faisant parvenir une intervention écrite au
 9     CRTC.  Vos observations devront alors porter
10     spécifiquement sur le renouvellement des licences en
11     question.
12  664                  Now I would like to come to this
13     evening's consultations.
14  665                  Please allow me to introduce a member
15     of our staff who is assisting us in this room,
16     Donald Rhéaume, our legal counsel.  Rod Lahay is in the
17     other room with my colleague.  Rod is from Broadcast
18     Planning Service.
19  666                  Please feel free to call on them with
20     any questions you might have about the process today or
21     any other matter.
22  667                  So that everyone will have a chance
23     to speak, we ask that you limit your presentation to
24     10 minutes.
25  668                  As these consultations are a forum


 1     designed especially for you, and we want to listen to
 2     as many participants as possible, we will not ask any
 3     questions unless we need clarification.
 4  669                  Pour que vous ayez tous l'occasion de
 5     vous faire entendre, nous vous demandons de limiter
 6     votre présentation à 10 minutes.  Ces consultations
 7     sont votre tribune à vous et nous voulons être à
 8     l'écoute du plus grand nombre possible d'intervenants. 
 9     Nous ne poserons donc pas de questions, sauf si nous
10     avons besoin de clarification.
11  670                  Après vos interventions, les
12     représentants des stations locales de Radio-Canada
13     auront également droit de parole puisque ce sont les
14     premières intéressées par les questions que nous avons
15     abordées aujourd'hui.
16  671                  At the end of this session,
17     representatives from the local CBC stations will have a
18     chance to offer their views as they are naturally very
19     interested in the issues we are discussing here today.
20  672                  Just before we start with our first
21     participant, I will ask M. Rhéaume just to explain the
22     déroulement, the way the evening will proceed.
23  673                  MR. RHÉAUME:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
24  674                  We will be calling two groups,
25     actually, those that can follow on the agenda.


 1  675                  We will start with Mr. Jonathan
 2     Sachs; Jane Cacciavillani --
 3  676                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  If you would come
 4     to the table as your name is called.  We will bring
 5     10 people to the table at once.
 6  677                  Are you Jane?
 7  678                  MR. RHÉAUME:  If you want to join us
 8     at the table.
 9  679                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Come on down, as
10     they say.
11  680                  MR. RHÉAUME:  Mme Nicole Germain;
12     David Shragge; Dean La Bute; Sarah Trusty; Emil Nakhle;
13     Dr. Alfie Morgan; and, Mr. Paul Rousseau.
14  681                  I guess Mr. Sachs is not here.
15  682                  Mr. Peter Wilkinson; Howard Pawley. 
16     Kindly join us.
17  683                  I guess we will start with
18     Jane Cacciavillani.
20  684                  MS CACCIAVILLANI:  The CBC is
21     important to Canada in many ways (off microphone/sans
22     microphone...)  Canadian culture and gives us a
23     Canadian perspective in journalism, both to us and to
24     the world.
25  685                  There is also a great deal of


 1     material that educates the public in different areas,
 2     whether it is scientific advances, social issues,
 3     business and financial and economic issues, just to
 4     name a few.
 5  686                  To quote Rex Murphy, the mandate is
 6     to provide a neutral exchange of familiarities between
 7     the regions.
 8  687                  Of course every mature country at the
 9     end of the twentieth century has a public broadcaster. 
10     I think all we really need is the political will from
11     the governments that support the CBC, but I will talk
12     more about that later on.
13  688                  The thing I like best about the CBC
14     is that it cannot be bought out by private interests. 
15     Conrad Black, for one, has been buying a lot of media
16     and I think that is far too much concentration.  I
17     think it is refreshing to have the CBC and have that
18     different voice to listen to.  A big amen to that.
19  689                  As for the direction it should take,
20     I do believe that the CBC needs to be funded more
21     solidly.  CBC TV I think could benefit from this a lot
22     because I think that if they had more money they could
23     get away from commercials and have their outlook be
24     more purely public and it would have more public
25     appeal.


 1  690                  Right at the moment, CBC TV gets
 2     50 per cent of its money from ads and I just don't
 3     think that's the way to go.  But, like I said, if it
 4     was more solidly funded, we wouldn't have this problem.
 5  691                  I also like the idea of CBC
 6     Radio Three for youth.  It can do no harm, and I think
 7     probably a lot of good for the corporation, to secure a
 8     new, loyal audience.  The only problem with this is
 9     that for the financing money would have to be diverted
10     from its present concerns.
11  692                  In my opinion, if there is to be a
12     new network -- and I know there has to be, there is no
13     doubt about it -- then let it be funded with new
14     government money.  But in order for that to happen, I
15     think we as citizens are going to have to speak loud
16     and clear on that issue.
17  693                  Another issue that I find too
18     important to ignore is the governance.
19  694                  First of all, I don't think that we
20     need any government appointees on the Board.  I think
21     there needs to be a total arm's-length relationship
22     between the CBC and the people it covers, including the
23     government and especially the government.  No other
24     organization that I can think of is run quite like
25     that.


 1  695                  As for the current labour trouble, I
 2     think the reason that it is happening -- or I know
 3     because I listen to Cross Country Check-up with Rex
 4     Murphy, and he stated that the reason for the trouble
 5     was that the CBC is no longer sure of exactly what it
 6     should be doing; and, again, it is because of this
 7     funding issue.  I really do think we need, for that
 8     reason, to really, truly make our voices heard.
 9  696                  This cannot continue.  The CBC has
10     had a third, a third of its budget cut out.  This is
11     not the way to go.  We need to support it and we need
12     to write letters and do whatever we can to support the
13     CBC and tell the government that we value it.
14  697                  Thank you very much.
15  698                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much
16     for your intervention.
17  699                  Now we will go to our next
18     participant.
19  700                  M. RHÉAUME:  Mme Nicole Germain.
21  701                  Mme NICOLE GERMAIN:  Mesdames,
22     messieurs, bonsoir.
23  702                  D'abord, au nom de la communauté
24     francophone du sud-ouest de l'Ontario, nous tenons à
25     vous remercier d'avoir pensé à notre région pour les


 1     consultations.  Souvent dans le sud-ouest, on nous
 2     oublie.  Alors, c'est très, très apprécié.  Nous vous
 3     remercions de nous permettre de donner nos opinions et
 4     commentaires concernant la télévision et radio de
 5     Radio-Canada.
 6  703                  Permettez-moi de vous présenter les
 7     gens qui m'accompagnent:  Carole Gagnon et Micheline
 8     Boisvert.  Finalement, voici nos opinions et
 9     commentaires:  un, les compressions de la Société
10     Radio-Canada; deux, la radio de CBEF; trois, la
11     télévision française; quatre, la station FM; et cinq,
12     le Réseau de l'information continue.
13  704                  Les compressions à la Société Radio-
14     Canada.  Nous regrettons les compressions budgétaires
15     qu'a subies la Société Radio-Canada depuis 1990, tant à
16     la radio et à la télé, française et anglaise.  Le
17     personnel doué n'est pas très nombreux.  Quand l'un
18     d'entre eux tombe malade et qu'on doit réaménager toute
19     la journée, c'est tout un branlement pour permettre
20     l'horaire prévue.
21  705                  Nous avons une grande crainte pour la
22     survie de la station de CBEF parce que CBEF c'est bon
23     en français.  Depuis les compressions budgétaires,
24     seulement les communautés des régions de Montréal, de
25     Québec et d'Ottawa peuvent être parrainées par la


 1     Société Radio-Canada et accueillent de grands artistes
 2     francophones.  Une région comme la nôtre a besoin de
 3     l'aide de la Société Radio-Canada afin de nous
 4     permettre d'assister, nous aussi, à des grands
 5     spectacles et des grands concerts, et ce, gratuitement.
 6  706                  En l'an 2001, la région célébrait le
 7     60e anniversaire de la plus vieille communauté
 8     française permanente en Ontario.  Le Comité
 9     organisateur des fêtes du tricentenaire établira
10     bientôt sa programmation.  Nous comptons sur la SRC
11     afin de nous permettre d'offrir de grands concerts dans
12     cet événement extraordinaire.
13  707                  La radio de CBEF.  Dans l'ensemble,
14     la programmation de CBEF est très satisfaisante.  La
15     communauté francophone de la région apprécie les
16     émissions produites localement et apprécie aussi
17     l'engagement des intervenants et des artisans de la
18     radio qui, de plus, est incorporé à nulle part dans la
19     province.  Nous en sommes convaincus, nous en sommes
20     fiers.
21  708                  À notre radio, nous nous identifions
22     parce qu'elle est ce qu'elle est et qu'elle reflète
23     bien le profil de la communauté, mais il y a de la
24     place à de l'amélioration.  Voici quelques suggestions.
25  709                  Pour le publique jeunesse: 


 1     conscients du taux d'assimilation toujours en
 2     croissance, que l'on reprenne la formule de l'émission
 3     "Club Sandwich" afin de permettre à notre jeunesse de
 4     produire une émission faite par eux et à leur image. 
 5     Nos adolescents sont créatifs et imaginatifs.  Qui
 6     d'autres qu'eux pour divertir leurs pairs?  On sort
 7     cette émission comme une étape de l'emploi dans le
 8     domaine de la radiophonie.
 9  710                  Nous sommes conscients aussi que ce
10     n'est pas le CRTC qui assurera le suivi à cette requête
11     mais bien la Société Radio-Canada et au gouvernement
12     qui devrait injecté de nouveaux argents à ce genre de
13     programmation.  Et pourquoi pas ne penser à la
14     programmation pour des plus jeunes?
15  711                  La Société Radio-Canada a le mandat
16     d'informer et de divertir mais aussi de permettre à sa
17     collectivité de grandir et de se développer, surtout en
18     milieu minoritaire.  Nos jeunes doivent pouvoir parler
19     et travailler tout en s'amusant en français, à
20     l'extérieur des murs de la salle de classe, et ce, dans
21     son milieu.  La Société Radio-Canada peut jouer un très
22     grand rôle à ce niveau.
23  712                  Le public adulte:  qu'il y ait plus
24     d'émissions pour les goûts, et ce, en tout temps ou à
25     une heure déterminée -- je donne des exemples d'heures


 1     précises et différents choix de musique -- ce qui
 2     permettrait à l'auditeur d'être à l'écoute au moment où
 3     il a intérêt à ce genre de musique au lieu de fermer
 4     l'appareil complètement parce qu'il n'aime pas le début
 5     de l'émission.
 6  713                  Les émissions d'information locale
 7     sont très appropriées et nous croyons que la communauté
 8     en est plus que satisfaite.  Nous réalisons les grands
 9     efforts qui sont faits pour la couverture des
10     événements d'intérêt général malgré le peu de
11     personnel.
12  714                  Durant les fins de semaine, le
13     bulletin de nouvelles locales est à midi le samedi. 
14     C'est le dernier de la fin de semaine.  La communauté
15     francophone continue de respirer durant la fin de
16     semaine et souhaiterait être au courant de ce qui se
17     passe dans sa communauté toute la fin de semaine
18     durant.
19  715                  Le "Midi-Magazine" devrait être
20     allongé d'une demi-heure.  Cette émission agrémente le
21     repos du midi.  Les sujets intéressants y sont traités
22     avec des gens de chez nous par une animatrice de chez
23     nous et le choix musical est approprié et divertissant.
24  716                  Bravo à l'émission "Ontario 30" qui
25     reflète bien les intérêts de la communauté franco-


 1     ontarienne à l'échelle provinciale.  Elle devrait avoir
 2     une durée d'une heure afin d'approfondir le ou les
 3     dossiers de la journée.  Souvent, nous restons sur
 4     notre fin.  En général, ce que nous demandons c'est
 5     plus de temps d'antenne produit au niveau local ou
 6     provincial.  Pour ce faire, il faut augmenter le budget
 7     et le personnel.
 8  717                  Les sportifs en veulent un peu aussi. 
 9     Pourquoi ne pas remettre à la radio la soirée du
10     hockey?  Comment se fait-il que les émissions spéciales
11     telles que la couverture des élections et du budget
12     sont diffusées pendant des heures d'antenne locale et
13     non pendant les heures de diffusion en provenance du
14     réseau?  Serait-ce parce que les auditeurs des régions
15     sont plus fidèles, et par conséquent, la cote d'écoute
16     plus élevée?  Nous en sommes convaincus.  À notre avis,
17     c'est justement ce qui justifie la requête que nous
18     voulons faire:  plus d'heures d'antenne au niveau
19     local.
20  718                  À la télévision française:  les
21     émissions d'information telles que "Le Point" et "Le
22     Téléjournal" sont très appropriées et nous informent de
23     l'actualité nationale et internationale.  La couverture
24     complète du niveau national des élections du référendum
25     au Québec, est-ce indispensable?  Nous ne croyons pas


 1     que l'inverse est vrai.  Je ne crois pas que l'on
 2     présente les élections en Ontario ou au Manitoba...
 3     qu'on les présente au Québec pendant toute la soirée. 
 4     Je pense qu'on devrait produire, faire un grand
 5     reportage ou que si on le fait au complet, qu'on le
 6     fasse partout au Canada.  Nous désirons être tenus au
 7     courant de ce qui se passe au Québec, bien sûr, mais
 8     une soirée entière dans le contexte d'une élection, je
 9     pense que c'est trop.
10  719                  Le "Ce Soir" remplit son mandat
11     d'informer la communauté.  Cette émission d'information
12     doit être à l'image de la communauté franco-ontarienne. 
13     Par conséquent, elle doit couvrir l'information
14     ontarienne et l'intérêt public des franco-ontariens. 
15     Souvent, on oublie aussi le sud-ouest.  L'information
16     internationale passe avant l'information provinciale et
17     nationale.
18  720                  Les bulletins radio et "Le
19     Téléjournal" et plusieurs autres stations couvrent
20     l'international toute la journée.  Il serait possible
21     de couvrir l'international à l'émission "Ce Soir" sans
22     pour ceci empêcher la couverture provinciale en
23     ajoutant une demi-heure à cette émission.
24  721                  Le "Ce Soir en Couleur" se doit aussi
25     de refléter la communauté franco-ontarienne.  Les


 1     sujets sont intéressants et informatifs.  Par contre,
 2     on apporte souvent des références du Québec.  Pourquoi
 3     ne pas ajouter les références de l'Ontario français si
 4     c'est possible?
 5  722                  La violence est encore trop présente
 6     à la télévision.  On doit la rayer complètement des
 7     ondes.  Les téléromans ne manquent pas.  Il y en a pour
 8     tous les goûts.
 9  723                  Les émissions telles "La Facture",
10     "Enjeux", "Lisa", "Les Trois Mousquetaires", "La Vraie
11     Vie" sont très appropriées, intéressantes,
12     informatives, divertisssantes.  Elles ont des
13     téléspectateurs assidus.  Par contre, ce qui manque ce
14     sont des émissions de variété telles "L'Écuyer" et "La
15     Fureur" pour le public un peu plus rangé.
16  724                  On dit que la population est
17     vieillissante et que les aînés représenteront le tiers
18     de la population.  Pensons à eux dans la programmation
19     télévisuelle en offrant des émissions qui les touchent: 
20     santé, droit, logement, voyage, sports, divertissement,
21     danse, musique... la journée durant, pas seulement
22     l'avant-midi.
23  725                  Ce qui manque aussi pour le public en
24     général ce sont des émissions touchant l'individu, des
25     relations humaines genre talk-show où le public est


 1     invité à partager avec l'appui d'un professionnel sur
 2     un sujet donné.
 3  726                  La station FM:  encore une fois de
 4     plus, la région du sud-ouest de l'Ontario n'est pas de
 5     la partie.  La station FM de langue française n'est
 6     diffusée qu'au Québec, au Nouveau-Brunswick et dans les
 7     régions d'Ottawa et de Toronto seulement.  La province
 8     ne serait pas Toronto.  C'est inacceptable.  La région
 9     du sud-ouest veut être desservie comme toutes les
10     autres régions.  Nous ne voulons pas être les éternels
11     derniers.  Nous aussi nous voulons développer nos goûts
12     et prendre plaisir à tout ce qui existe, côté culture.
13  727                  Le Réseau de l'information continue,
14     le RDI:  la bête noire pour nous.  Pas moyen de la
15     mettre en cage.  La réception de RDI doit être
16     disponible d'est à ouest au Canada, sans exception. 
17     Dans ce dossier, le CRTC a un grand rôle à jouer.  Il
18     est inacceptable que la diffusion du RDI soit laissée à
19     la discrétion du cablôdistributeur et serve à une
20     région donnée.
21  728                  Dans une région comme la nôtre où la
22     population francophone se chiffre à plus de 35 000,
23     dont un nombre important provenant d'ailleurs, et pour
24     eux, le RDI est le seul moyen d'avoir des nouvelles de
25     leur pays d'origine et de leur famille.  À ce nombre


 1     s'ajoute un grand nombre de francophiles.  Nous sommes
 2     la plus grande communauté au Canada à ne pas recevoir
 3     le service.
 4  729                  La communauté francophone de la
 5     région a été plus que patiente dans le dossier et il
 6     est grand temps de passer à l'action.  Nous demandons
 7     donc au CRTC que le CRTC prenne les moyens nécessaires
 8     afin d'assurer la télédiffusion du RDI dans notre
 9     région.  De plus, que ça ne se fasse pas sur le dos de
10     d'autres canaux de langue française.
11  730                  Le CRTC doit obliger le
12     cablôdistributeur de la région, Cogeco, à rendre
13     disponsible la réception du RDI, et ce, dans les plus
14     brefs délais.
15  731                  Nous laissons à nos concitoyens de
16     langue anglaise d'apporter les points de vue concernant
17     la programmation anglaise à la Société Radio-Canada.
18  732                  La Société Radio-Canada étant une
19     société d'état doit assurer un contenu canadien et a le
20     mandat de desservir la population canadienne avant
21     tout.  La câblodistribution a ouvert les portes de nos
22     foyers à toute une série d'émissions provenant
23     d'ailleurs.  Chez nous, nous sommes inondés d'émissions
24     et de réseaux américains.
25  733                  Il est primordial, vital, pour


 1     l'ensemble des Canadiens et pour la communauté
 2     francophone de la région que la SRC reste une société
 3     d'état, radio et télévision française et anglaise avec
 4     un contenu canadien.  La Société Radio-Canada est
 5     unique.  C'est à notre avis la seule façon de nous
 6     reconnaître et d'entendre parler de nous.
 7  734                  Privatiser la Radio-Canada est
 8     inacceptable.  Que notre gouvernement y ait pensé
 9     seulement c'est un message à son désengagement au
10     développement de toutes les communautés du pays.  À
11     notre avis, le gouvernement doit réinvestir dans la
12     Société Radio-Canada et non la privatiser.
13  735                  Le document que je vous remets à la
14     fin de ma présentation est publique.  Si ça peut vous
15     être utile lors de vos démarches et auprès d'aussi la
16     Société Radio-Canada, il sera disponible.  Soyez
17     assurés de notre collaboration.  Merci pour les suivis.
18  736                  En terminant, au nom de la communauté
19     francophone de la région, nous vous remercions de nous
20     avoir donné l'occasion de faire cette présentation. 
21     Nous vous remercions.  Mesdames, messieurs, merci.
22  737                  LA PRÉSIDENTE:  Merci, Madame
23     Germain.  En effet, si vous voulez laisser une copie de
24     votre présentation, mais il faut dire aussi que tout ce
25     qui se passe ici est déjà public.  Mais merci beaucoup


 1     pour avoir amené une copie et merci pour vos
 2     commentaires.
 3  738                  Notre prochain invité.
 4  739                  MR. RHÉAUME:  Our next presenter,
 5     Mr. David Shragge.
 6  740                  Then we go to Mr. Dean La Bute.
 7  741                  Sarah Trusty.
 9  742                  MS TRUSTY:  Good evening.  I would
10     like to begin by thanking the CRTC for the opportunity
11     to speak this evening on the Canadian Broadcasting
12     Corporation.
13  743                  My name is Sarah Trusty and this is
14     Arlene Traynor.  We feel that overall the CBC is doing
15     an admirable job at providing Canadians with quality
16     programming that entertains, informs and promotes
17     Canadian culture.
18  744                  However, we would like to present to
19     you some concerns we have with how adequately the CBC
20     is fulfilling its mandate and how accessible it makes
21     itself to the Canadian public as a whole.
22  745                  For the purposes of our discussion,
23     we will limit our recommendations to CBC English
24     television, as we feel this is an area of the CBC that
25     needs much attention.


 1  746                  I will now turn the discussion over
 2     to Arlene, who will address our concerns with how
 3     adequately the CBC is filling certain areas of its
 4     mandate.
 5  747                  MS TRAYNOR:  Thank you.
 6  748                  The CBC's Mission Statement of
 7     1996-97 states that their services are:
 8                            " inform, enlighten and
 9                            entertain, to help the citizens
10                            take part in the country's
11                            life."  (As read)
12  749                  We feel that the CBC is not
13     fulfilling this mandate of serving the Canadian public
14     as a whole.  One particular area of concern is youth
15     programming, ages approximately 12 to 25.  Children and
16     youth are the next generation of viewers and the lack
17     of programming provided for them on the CBC forces
18     Canadian youth to turn to American television.  Then we
19     have created a generation with no sense of their own
20     culture.
21  750                  Page 18 of the 1994 CRTC decision on
22     the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation stated that there
23     was a concern with the lack of programming for
24     pre-teens and teenage children.  It is our feeling that
25     the CBC has yet to adequately fix this gap in their


 1     programming.
 2  751                  Another audience that they are not
 3     reaching is the working class.  We feel that there is a
 4     lot of business shows.  There is also a serious lack of
 5     multicultural programming.  What about the Asian
 6     population or even the Italian population.  We need
 7     Canadian shows for ethnics done by ethnic Canadians for
 8     ethnic Canadians.
 9  752                  There have been vast improvements in
10     the representation of ethnic groups in some areas such
11     as journalists and program hosts.  However, programs
12     which are targeted at ethnic groups within Canada's
13     population are still lacking and as the CBC's mandate
14     is to enlighten and entertain all Canadians.  They are
15     not fulfilling their mandate in this area.
16  753                  The programming which the CBC does
17     provide is of high quality and should definitely be
18     continued, but the problem is this programming is not
19     of interest to all segments of the Canadian public. 
20     The CBC has made great improvements in reducing the
21     amount of foreign programming and providing quality
22     Canadian programming instead.  However, there is still
23     some needless foreign programming which is taking up
24     space that could be devoted to Canadian programs that
25     target these under-represented groups.


 1  754                  Certainly cost is always a concern
 2     for the CBC, but their 1996-97 report discusses the
 3     importance of what they spend their money on.  How can
 4     Canada's broadcaster justify spending money on foreign
 5     content when their Canadian programming does not meet
 6     the needs of all Canadians.  If production costs are
 7     too high, consider rebroadcasting older Canadian
 8     programs which may meet some of these unsatisfied
 9     needs.
10  755                  There is no need for foreign
11     programming on the CBC when they are still not meeting
12     the needs of all Canadians with their own programming. 
13     That time should be devoted to these under-represented
14     groups.
15  756                  Sarah.
16  757                  MS TRUSTY:  Thank you.
17  758                  I'm just going to continue by
18     addressing some concerns we have with the accessibility
19     of the CBC.
20  759                  In 1994, the CRTC decision on the
21     Canadian Broadcasting Corporation encouraged less
22     dependence on advertising.  Certainly, we think this is
23     a good aim.  What we propose is not more dependence on
24     advertising from outside source, but more of a focus on
25     the CBC's practices and marketing themselves.


 1  760                  Once again, we realize that cost is
 2     always a big factor for the CBC, but the reality is
 3     that not enough Canadians are tuning into the CBC.  We
 4     are all aware that the majority of Canadians watch far
 5     more American programming than Canadian programming. 
 6     We believe that this due in part to the lack of diverse
 7     programming as we previously mentioned, but at the same
 8     time the CBC has much programming that would appeal to
 9     a wide audience of Canadians if they were only made
10     more aware of it.
11  761                  When advertising is done on the CBC,
12     the only people who see this advertising are those who
13     already watch it and therefore a new audience can't be
14     generated.
15  762                  What we propose is a type of
16     advertising campaign that reaches all Canadians and let
17     them know that the CBC has programs worth watching. 
18     Advertising in national newspapers is good, but it's
19     not enough because this does not reach many segments of
20     the population.  We consider advertising on public
21     transportation and non-stream publications, on
22     billboards, on radio stations other than the CBC, such
23     as even campus radio which would be a cheap alternative
24     and you would reach, like, an unrepresented audience I
25     think.


 1  763                  The CBC has taken steps to stay
 2     contemporary and in touch with the public, such as
 3     through their Web Site, their very impressive and very
 4     informative Web Site, but again this only reaches a
 5     very small segment of the population as a very limited
 6     number of Canadians have Internet access.
 7  764                  We feel that advertising needs to be
 8     done where all Canadians will have access to it.  The
 9     CBC needs to inform Canadians that they have
10     programming that represents them and is worth watching.
11  765                  If the CBC can become a service that
12     truly services the majority of the Canadian public,
13     then the government may look at it as a more worthy
14     cause.  Of course, cost does make this not an immediate
15     course of action, but we propose that something such as
16     this is a crucial long-term goal in order for the CBC
17     to stay viable and of use to all Canadians.
18  766                  They truly need to make themselves
19     accessible and become a voice for every Canadian. 
20     Consider even alternatives such as CBC representatives
21     in every city who will be available and known to
22     everyone to take suggestions, talk to people about what
23     they like and don't like about the CBC's programs. 
24     Something such as this that would be available all the
25     time in order to be constantly meeting Canada's


 1     broadcasting needs.
 2  767                  Again, if cost is an issue, which I'm
 3     sure it is, there are many talented and able people who
 4     would love to volunteer their time to assist in
 5     bettering the CBC and help it provide programming which
 6     entertains, enlightens and promotes the culture of
 7     every Canadians.
 8  768                  The CBC is supposed to be a
 9     broadcaster that provides unique programming for
10     Canada's entire population.  We feel that the
11     programming which it currently provides is of the
12     highest quality.  However, in making itself more
13     accessible it could provide quality programming for all
14     of Canada and not just parts of it.
15  769                  Thank you very much for taking the
16     time to hear my recommendations.
17  770                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you both
18     very, very much for being here.
19  771                  Our next speakers.
20  772                  MR. RHÉAUME:  Our next speaker is
21     Emile Nakhle and friends, I believe.
23  773                  MS CHANG:  Good evening.
24  774                  My name is Angie Chang and with me is
25     John Chan and Emil Nakhle.


 1  775                  We are simply here this evening to
 2     voice our concerns about the balance of children's
 3     programming on the CBC.
 4  776                  The majority of shows are targeted to
 5     preschool children during morning schedules.  At this
 6     time, most children are at school or day care and are
 7     therefore unable to view quality Canadian programming. 
 8     Consequently, there is an insufficient number of
 9     children's programming in the afternoon hours of the
10     day.  Thus, children at school should have the
11     opportunity to watch some of the morning show schedules
12     once they return home.
13  777                  However, we are aware that the CRTC
14     has recognized that the CBC should have more Canadian
15     programming geared to the youngsters of Canada. 
16     Nevertheless, we feel the CBC has not fulfilled these
17     significant needs.
18  778                  MR. CHAN:  In the past few weeks we
19     have been watching the CBC and we have noticed that the
20     morning line up that's dedicated towards most children
21     are mainly towards preschoolers between the hours of
22     8:00 and 12:00.
23  779                  We are aware that elementary schools
24     start at nine o'clock and in order for children to
25     arrive at school on time, they would have to leave the


 1     house at approximately 8:30 leaving them only with just
 2     the one show to watch and that show, consequently,
 3     happens to be a show produced by the BBC and not of
 4     Canada.
 5  780                  Another thing.  Even though these
 6     shows are aimed mainly at preschool children, most
 7     preschool children are either at day care or somewhere
 8     else being taken care of because of their family
 9     working situation.
10  781                  We have also noticed that the daily
11     schedule is not consistent.  On Thursdays and Fridays
12     at certain times, the shows differ than on Mondays,
13     Tuesdays and Wednesdays.  We feel that children may
14     have a hard time keeping up with when shows are because
15     most kids keep to a schedule of what shows are on on a
16     daily basis.
17  782                  We also feel, though, that these
18     shows are mainly towards the preschools.  There are not
19     shows mainly for the children between the ages of five
20     and 12.  There is, however, one show that we found that
21     seems to be aimed towards them.  However, it is on at
22     11:30 when children are still at school.
23  783                  In addition to that, we also noticed
24     that the shows of the CBC correspond with other shows
25     of local stations that any TV with or without cable can


 1     pick up.  The shows are actually the same shows and
 2     they are on roughly at the same time.  The CBC has
 3     stated that they would like to try to do something
 4     different from the schedules of other programs.
 5  784                  What else?  As far as the after
 6     school schedule, we have noticed that in the hours
 7     between 3:30 to five o'clock there is a cooking show
 8     and a show called Road to Avonlea, which is more of a
 9     family and could be put on at a later hour.  We could
10     probably use more shows aimed at children at that hour,
11     as Emil will state.
12  785                  MR. NAKHLE:  Thanks, Johnny.
13  786                  Basically, what I have to say is
14     basically feeding off of my other two partners.
15  787                  What we feel is there is still an
16     absence of quality Canadian programming in the
17     after-school periods of the day.  We feel that the
18     children of this country need to be more aware of what
19     it is to be Canadian.
20  788                  I know for a fact there is a U.S.
21     show called Animated Hero Classics.  What this show is
22     is a cartoon animation of history of the world, but
23     basically it focuses on American history.  If there was
24     a Canadian show or animation such as this, it would
25     make more aware the children of this country of what it


 1     is to have lived in Canada, to know what it is to be
 2     Canadian.
 3  789                  As Johnny said about the
 4     inconsistency of the children's schedule, I know for a
 5     firsthand fact that my baby cousin, she is used to a
 6     certain television schedule.  She does not understand
 7     what time it is exactly, but what she does know is that
 8     a certain show is on at this particular time.  If she
 9     doesn't see the show she has a fit and gets confused a
10     bit.
11     --- Laughter / Rires
12  790                  MR. NAKHLE:  And it's, like, hard to
13     explain to here why it's not on.
14     --- Laughter / Rires
15  791                  MR. NAKHLE:  Also, as Johnny said, in
16     reference to being at school and not being able to
17     watch some television programming, I do recall as a
18     child the television animated show Raccoons.  I watched
19     that as a child and I was quite amused by it, but as
20     school started I was unable to watch it and I did
21     distinctively recognize it as a Canadian show with
22     Canadian content.
23  792                  Thank you very much.
24  793                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
25     much, all three of you, for your presentation.


 1  794                  Next.
 2  795                  MR. RHÉAUME:  Our next speaker is
 3     Dr. Alfie Morgan.  No?
 4  796                  Then we go to Mr. Paul Rousseau.
 6  797                  MR. ROUSSEAU:  First of all, I would
 7     like to thank the CRTC for the opportunity to share my
 8     thoughts tonight.
 9  798                  I want to focus my comments tonight
10     on CBC radio, specifically on CBC Radio One, which in
11     this area is known as CBE 1550.
12  799                  There is an old saying in
13     Windsor-Essex that Canada stops in Chatham-Kent, which
14     is about 80 kilometres east of here, which essentially
15     is the geographical point where U.S. radio
16     transmissions from southeast Michigan begin to fade. 
17     Southeast Michigan has perhaps the largest number of
18     radio stations in any U.S. urban centre and a majority
19     of Windsor-Essex citizens listen to these stations.
20  800                  Beyond that point of Chatham-Kent,
21     Canada-based media has a much larger influence. 
22     Ironically, even though there are radio stations
23     geographically located in Windsor, like CIDR and CIMX,
24     they come across as if they are Michigan-based.  Most
25     of their advertisement sales are from southeast


 1     Michigan and the announcers on these stations seldom
 2     refer to their listeners on this side here in Canada.
 3  801                  Fortunately, these stations
 4     broadcasting from Canadian soil must follow Canadian
 5     content and we, on this side of the border, do get a
 6     chance to find Canadian talent on these Windsor
 7     stations.
 8  802                  Interestingly, Michigan-based
 9     stations quite often play these Canadian songs and, to
10     some degree, the CANCON regulations have helped promote
11     a lot of Canadian talent.
12  803                  My focus tonight will be more on the
13     radio as a source of information and Canadian points of
14     view than on radio as a source of music.
15  804                  For much of my early morning and
16     early evening I am tuned to 1550, our own CBC Radio One
17     station.  This is where I get my Canadian news.  This
18     is when I feel Canadian.  I seldom watch television and
19     rely on CBC Radio One to get informed.
20  805                  Of course I could listen to CKWW,
21     which is also on the AM band if I could stomach the
22     commercials and the shallow and sometimes idiotic
23     quality of their shows.
24  806                  While I groan at times listening to
25     certain things that our local CBC folks say on the air,


 1     the benefits of tuning my dial to 1550 are very clear
 2     to me.  A day started without CBC radio just doesn't
 3     quite go as well as it could.
 4  807                  Over the past few years I have
 5     noticed a gradual deterioration due to massive funding
 6     cuts of what I believe to be the best radio network in
 7     the world.
 8  808                  I recall eagerly waking up on Sunday
 9     morning to listen to the show Sunday Morning, which was
10     loped about a year ago.  I can still hear those
11     wonderful weekly meetings hosted by Peter Gzowski
12     involving Stephen Lewis and others talking about
13     Canadian issues with passion.  This no longer seems to
14     happen.
15  809                  Not sounding like somebody wanting to
16     bring back the old, old times, I can't help but wonder
17     if the magic of CBC in the recent past has vanished
18     because of these cutbacks.  We still have a lot of
19     radio talent and given sufficient resources these
20     resources can shine in the greatness of CBC's past and
21     even more.
22  810                  Without the support, without the
23     resources, our current generation of CBC Radio One
24     people can never rise to their full potential.  And we
25     are taking the risk of losing even more of our


 1     remaining talent if our Liberal government and the CBC
 2     management does not begin to invest more money into the
 3     CBC.
 4  811                  I hate to be cynical, but I know from
 5     my own experience as an educator that without a base
 6     level of support, without resources, without supplies
 7     and expectations of some form of tenure and a certain
 8     future I would not be able to do my best job.  This
 9     leaves me vulnerable to my critics who will point
10     fingers and say:  Those teachers are just not doing a
11     good job.
12  812                  Is this the plan of CBC, to strangle
13     the operation until it looks so bad that even the
14     shallow, market-driven commercial radio stations begin
15     to look good?
16  813                  I don't believe this attack on CBC is
17     one case.  It seems like public radio is under attack
18     everywhere.
19  814                  For example, the CBC's U.S.
20     counterpart of sorts, NPR, continues to be under
21     attack.
22  815                  On Monday of this week the NPR
23     reported that, and this is a quote:
24                            "Some government officials
25                            believe that the funding


 1                            currently going to those
 2                            programs is too large a portion
 3                            of the funding for something
 4                            which is seen as not
 5                            worthwhile."  (As read)
 6  816                  A few years ago, NPR was forced to
 7     find "sponsors", and while there are no commercials yet
 8     on NPR, the much repeated "This program is made
 9     possible by..." a corporation and then a short little
10     statement about that corporation sounds very much like
11     a commercial to me.  I wonder if this is the next step
12     of the "vision" of the CBC Board of Directors.
13  817                  I came to Canada in 1969 from the
14     United States to begin my university education.  One of
15     the things I immediately loved about this country was
16     the CBC.  Until that time for me, radio was mostly
17     music, commercials and so on.  CBC radio on the other
18     hand offered an alternative.  CBC combined with NPR
19     broadcasting from Detroit provided me a useful resource
20     for information as I studied at the University of
21     Windsor.
22  818                  Thirty years later I continue to live
23     in Canada and continue to listen to CBC.  This helps me
24     define myself as a Canadian.  Listening to CBC reminds
25     me of how this, the second largest country in the


 1     world, is really quite small after all.  I'm told
 2     stories from people who are living in small towns, in
 3     coastal outposts and in urban centres both far and
 4     near.  I am reminded of just how great this country is
 5     and I can listen to this without having to contend with
 6     the advertisements.
 7  819                  CBC radio is a refuge for those like
 8     myself who want to reflect on our achievements, our
 9     failures and our potential as a country, and with those
10     who are seeking relief from the all might corporate
11     agenda that only sees me as a potential buyer of their
12     goods and services.
13  820                  To grow, CBC must buy into the
14     philosophy of continuous improvement.  The hearts and
15     minds of young people must be attracted to form its
16     future audience.  Teachers must see the CBC as a
17     resource in our schools and in our colleges.  CBC needs
18     to continue to feature our local experts, our
19     commentators, our political leaders, and add working
20     people, youth, new Canadians, and other citizens in
21     their shows.
22  821                  We must use the CBC in new and
23     creative ways to keep ordinary Canadians in touch with
24     each other.
25  822                  Instead of having hearings to make


 1     decisions on whether or not the CBC should exist, like
 2     the one we are having tonight, we really should be
 3     sponsoring idea sessions all over Canada on how to make
 4     the CBC even better and stronger than it is today.
 5  823                  CBC must be broadcast all over the
 6     world, through shortwave and through the Internet, so
 7     the world will know us and see how great we really are. 
 8     We cannot leave the future of the CBC up to the
 9     commercial people.  To commercial broadcasters,
10     programming is only a means to generate money.
11  824                  CBC programming may not have much
12     commercial value, then again, neither do raising
13     children, preparing our future leaders, studying the
14     arts and taking care of our ecosystems.  Life is not
15     only about finances.  CBC can be all that is truly and
16     deeply valued in Canada.  The rest of the world knows
17     how great things are going on in this country. 
18     Hopefully, those who hold the future of the CBC notice
19     as well.
20  825                  Thank you.
21  826                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
22     much, Mr. Rousseau.
23  827                  We will continue with our next
24     participant.
25  828                  MR. RHÉAUME:  Our next speaker is


 1     Mr. Peter Wilkinson.
 3  829                  MR. WILKINSON:  Good evening.  (Off
 4     microphone/sans microphone...).
 5  830                  I want to point out that
 6     Kathy McCrone appears with me in this segment.
 7  831                  Before I actually begin, I would like
 8     to say that I'm pleased to find that what I'm about to
 9     say echoes many of the things that I have heard from
10     the colleagues to my left.
11  832                  Recently, I watched an interview with
12     John Taviner(ph).  He, some of you may remember, is the
13     composer of the music which was sung at Westminster
14     Abbey at the conclusion of the funeral of Diana,
15     Princess of Wales as her casket was being carried from
16     the church.
17  833                  In the course of the interview,
18     Taviner said that a monk on Mount Athos, reflecting on
19     the present time, has said that all the doors of heaven
20     and hell are now open.
21  834                  As surely you are aware, there is a
22     chaotic debate both in word indeed going on upon our
23     planet earth as to what kind of a world we want to live
24     in.  Is it to be a world dominated by unbridled
25     nationalism and tribalism, or is it to be a world where


 1     people are recognized first and foremost as human
 2     beings?  Are we to be programmed totally into a world
 3     of free enterprise and consumerism, or are we to live
 4     lives enriched by the arts, crafts and participation in
 5     sports?
 6  835                  I feel truly that I have been
 7     enriched by the CBC.  I appreciate hearing news from
 8     other parts of Canada and I want to know that there is
 9     a taxpayer-supported broadcasting system operating at
10     arm's length from the government in which the reporters
11     are free to report what they observe without fear of
12     censorship, not to mention worse.
13  836                  A program like Windsor's Morning
14     Watch hosted by Paul Vassey gives one a window on the
15     local scene in Windsor.  Windsor has an active visual
16     arts community and I believe that they have benefitted
17     from the television radio coverage they have received. 
18     Susan Little has been the facilitator for much of this. 
19     I do not think that the Windsor Symphony would have had
20     the opportunity to be broadcast nationally if it were
21     not for the CBC.
22  837                  Obviously, as had been pointed out
23     already, if our local CBC outlets had better budgets,
24     we could be still better informed of local activities
25     in the real of sports, the arts and crafts.


 1  838                  In case my presentation appears
 2     on-sided, I would add that I am very well aware of the
 3     many enterprising small and not so small manufacturers
 4     in Windsor.  I would like to see, from time to time,
 5     segments on the local news highlighting these important
 6     players in our economy.
 7  839                  If we Canadians are to step in a good
 8     direction in the next millennium and not become purely
 9     cogs in a so-called global economy, we need
10     organizations which will help us to do that and I
11     believe that the CBC can be an important element in
12     this process.
13  840                  Canadian nationalism has rarely ever
14     manifested the blustering patriotism which often
15     characterizes such feelings.  Nevertheless, being a
16     Canadian is very important to me.  We need to talk
17     about hour heros and heroines from Drs. Banting and
18     Best to the women of Canada's women's hockey team who
19     just one their fifth straight world's championship.  We
20     need to take note at what Canadians have achieved.
21  841                  Since the end of World War II, many
22     immigrants have come to Canada and I wonder how much
23     attention has been paid to helping them to grow into
24     the way of being a Canadian.
25  842                  Last autumn, I was standing on the


 1     driveway of friend's house talking to the next door
 2     neighbour, an immigrant, but one who had been in Canada
 3     many years and had been a Canadian a long time.  In the
 4     course of the conversation she said, "Back in my
 5     country..."  I said, "No, Maria" -- not her right
 6     name -- "No, Maria.  That is the old country."  I
 7     pointed to the ground and I said "This is your
 8     country"; and her eyes opened as if this fact had
 9     really registered for the first time.  "You're right",
10     she said.
11  843                  I was talking to a man who had come
12     to borrow wine-making equipment from a fellow Canadian
13     citizen of Italian ancestry.  He said to me, in the
14     process of our conversation, "I love my Italian
15     tradition of wine making, but we must all do our best
16     to make Canada a great country."
17  844                  I do not want to see the CBC
18     sacrificed to the private broadcasters.  I do not want
19     to see them sacrificed to the private broadcasters so
20     the private broadcasters can further feather their own
21     nests which so often seems to be their primary
22     motivation.
23  845                  I conclude my remarks by saying that
24     I believe that there are people in the Canadian
25     Broadcasting Corporation who are prepared to take on


 1     the kind of tasks I have spoken of and, moreover, have
 2     the moral fibre necessary in order to do something
 3     which has the quality of nobility.
 4  846                  MS McCRONE:  I'm Kathleen McCrone and
 5     I would like to thank the CRTC for holding hearings in
 6     Windsor in an area that is in a unique need of the
 7     radio and television services of the CBC.
 8  847                  To begin simply and directly.  I love
 9     the CBC and immensely proud of it.
10  848                  I grew up with the CBC in
11     Saskatchewan in the 1940s and 1950s.  I spent five
12     years in the United States in the 1960s going to
13     graduate school and was deprived of the benefits of
14     public broadcasting during that period and I can recall
15     in the wee hours of the morning on my radio
16     occasionally picking up a voice that "Ici Radio-Canada"
17     from Montreal and the buzz that gave me.
18  849                  Radio One and Two are the only
19     stations to which I listen.  When I'm travelling, the
20     first thing I do is locate the CBC on the radio, in the
21     hotel in which I'm staying and on the television as
22     well.  It's extremely reassuring to be able to listen
23     to the World at Six, As It Happens, Cross Country
24     Check-up or Choral Concert whether one is in Regina, in
25     Windsor, in Halifax or Vancouver, or to watch the news


 1     broadcast by Peter Mansbridge.  It gives one a real
 2     sense of being part of our larger Canadian community
 3     with all its magnificent diversity and richness.
 4  850                  It appears that the CBC may be like
 5     so many Canadian gems, under appreciated at home.
 6  851                  My niece, who has a degree from the
 7     highly regarded communications studies program at the
 8     University of Washington and is herself an American
 9     told me that her professors at the University of
10     Washington held up the CBC as the model public
11     broadcaster exemplifying the highest standards and
12     achievements.
13  852                  I believe profoundly in the
14     importance of a national public broadcaster operating
15     at arm's length from the government and would note the
16     importance of public broadcasters in all the major
17     western countries, except the United States; a negative
18     distinction, second only perhaps to the United States'
19     lack of a national system of health insurance.
20  853                  A national public broadcaster is
21     needed especially badly, since few if any other
22     countries live next door to a giant whose influence,
23     power and self-interest are so overwhelming.
24  854                  I'm reminded of the perhaps not so
25     funny joke:  What do Canadians have in common?  The


 1     answer is:  Watching Detroit cable TV, in the Yukon, in
 2     Nova Scotia, in Saskatchewan and so on.
 3  855                  I consider the CBC vital to the
 4     national interest.  There are many different opinions
 5     about what the national interest actually is, but it is
 6     very clear that it is not the bottom-line profits of
 7     private broadcasters and their shareholders' interests
 8     and perspectives.
 9  856                  A public broadcaster provides a sense
10     of conscience in journalism, unadulterated by business
11     concerns.  It does, I believe, promote genuine freedom
12     of expression.
13  857                  The CBC, our public broadcaster,
14     gives a distinctly Canadian perspective to our news. 
15     It tells us about ourselves and "ourselves" means our
16     Quebec selves, our Newfoundland selves, our northern
17     selves, our British Columbian selves, our Saskatchewan
18     selves, and what have you.  All of these I think make
19     up what it means to be a Canadian.
20  858                  The CBC teaches us, as I say, about
21     Canadians in various parts of the country.  It pitches
22     to a high rather than a low common denominator.  It
23     promotes Canadian talent and culture and gives Canadian
24     talent an outlet.  Through radio programs such as
25     Ideas, to name only one of many, it has an elevating


 1     educating influence.  It's hard to imagine a program
 2     like Ideas being broadcast on a private radio station.
 3  859                  Now, in this particular part of the
 4     country where the immediacy of the American presence is
 5     so obvious, the CBC is absolutely vital.
 6  860                  When I moved here in 1968, there was
 7     no CBC television station, which surprised me
 8     tremendously.  It was the cause of much celebration
 9     when we got such a station in this area and a cause of
10     huge consternation when, to save money, the CBC shut
11     down the local television station in the early 1990s. 
12     The only time I have ever joined a public demonstration
13     was in the undermath of that unconscionable move and my
14     friend to my right here remembers that day very well.
15  861                  Fortunately, the closure was only
16     temporary, but the form in which the CBC TV was
17     restored here was unfortunately diminished in that
18     there has been virtually no local creative production
19     since that restoration apart from the local news.
20  862                  Now, the question comes up
21     frequently:  Does the CBC have a local and regional
22     role?  I think the answer to that is definitely yes.
23  863                  The connection -- let me interrupt
24     myself here.
25  864                  Its local and regional issues with


 1     which people in particular localities connect first,
 2     just like with local government -- if your garbage is
 3     picked up you notice that more than you notice what the
 4     federal government is doing in terms of particular
 5     initiatives, but this local broadcasting can translate
 6     in communicating the localities in Canada to the rest
 7     of our nation.
 8  865                  Local and regional broadcasts provide
 9     creative outlets for local talent that hasn't yet
10     necessarily made its mark nationally but can through,
11     as my friend on my left said, for example, broadcasts
12     of the Windsor Symphony across the country.  The CBC is
13     not fulfilling its mandate if the messages it
14     communicates to the country are obviously Toronto and
15     Montreal focused.
16  866                  I was horrified by the
17     disproportionate budget cuts that have been visited
18     upon the CBC in recent years and the antagonistic
19     attitude taken toward it by the current government and
20     Prime Minister.  I was shocked by the proposal last
21     year that would have enabled the government to dismiss
22     the President of the CBC and the Board of Directors at
23     will.
24  867                  I'm appalled now by the proposal of
25     some CBC board members that radio and TV news should be


 1     centralized under the control of a single
 2     vice-president based in Ottawa, thus placing it under
 3     the direct gaze of the government.
 4  868                  Morning Watch, Morningside, As It
 5     Happens, Sunday Morning, Cross Country Check-up, Ideas,
 6     the Royal Canadian Air Farce, Quirks and Quarks, Dead
 7     Dog Cafe, the Max Ferguson Show, Clive Gilmour, Ideas,
 8     Writers and Company, Choral Concert and the plethora of
 9     wonderful music programs on Radio Two.  These all do us
10     immensely proud, as on television do:  The National
11     news; The National Magazine; The Fifth Estate; Witness;
12     Biography; Hockey Night in Canada; special shows such
13     as The Boys of St. Vincent, The Dions; broadcasts of
14     the Cabot 500th anniversary celebrations, of the
15     British withdrawal from Hong Kong, the death and
16     funeral of the Princess of Wales, the funeral more
17     recently of King Hussein of Jordan; tremendous comedy
18     programs on the CBC; and the magnificent coverage that
19     is provided to us all every November the 11th in the
20     broadcasts from the cenotaph in Ottawa which remind us
21     of our history and of the tremendous debt we owe to
22     those who sacrificed their lives for this company in
23     the first and second world wars and in peacekeeping
24     missions through the United Nations.
25  869                  Never did I feel prouder of the CBC


 1     and prouder to be a Canadian during the CBC broadcasts
 2     of the 50th anniversary of D-Day and of VE-Day.
 3  870                  These all represented public
 4     broadcasting at their best and it's impossible for me
 5     to imagine that a standard of quality like this could
 6     have been achieved by private broadcasters, or if they
 7     would have even been that interested.
 8  871                  The CBC is one of the gems in our
 9     national treasure trove.  Of course it could improve
10     and do things differently, but given the hits it has
11     taken I think it has coped and adjusted remarkably
12     well.
13  872                  It takes a very long time to create a
14     service as good as that provided by the CBC, both radio
15     and television, and alas it takes a very short time to
16     destroy something of this quality.
17  873                  I urge the CRTC respectfully to help
18     to protect the independence of the CBC to assure that
19     the CBC is given the resources which will enable it
20     once again to thrive to adjust to the ever-changing
21     tapestry which characterizes this most blessed of
22     countries and thereby to defend and advance the public
23     interest.
24  874                  A healthy, clearly Canadian CBC is
25     more important than ever as we enter an era of


 1     unprecedented globalization.
 2  875                  Thank you very much.
 3  876                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 4     much, Mr. Wilkinson, Ms McCrone.
 5  877                  Our next speaker.
 6  878                  MR. RHÉAUME:  Our next speaker is
 7     Mr. Howard Pawley.
 9  879                  MR. PAWLEY:  I don't know whether
10     there is more to be said after the very fine
11     presentations that we have had this evening, but I
12     thank the CRTC for providing us with this opportunity
13     tonight.
14  880                  The CBC is a crucial institution.  In
15     a time of increasing fragmentation and regionalism,
16     Canada needs such institutions to join communities
17     together.  More not less resources should be allocated
18     to the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation.
19  881                  In addition, during an era when
20     powerful media owners such as Ted Rogers, Conrad Black
21     and many others claim to be the trusted protectors of
22     the public interest, a strong CBC is needed to ensure
23     healthy competition so that voices other than the
24     powerful can be heard.
25  882                  In Windsor, one of the CBC's main


 1     competitors provides local news coverage and is the
 2     Windsor Star, part of a media chain.  Perhaps not
 3     surprisingly, the Star has editorially argued that the
 4     CBC no longer serves any purpose.  It claims the time
 5     has come to wind down public broadcasting in this
 6     country, not expand it further.
 7  883                  Most of us, however, consider it
 8     important for Canada that today's modern media
 9     conglomerates should be subject to the competition that
10     a healthy and vibrant local CBC can provide.
11  884                  Regional broadcasting is extremely
12     critical.  In the early 1990s, as Kate McCrone
13     mentioned, the CBC shut down its regional TV
14     broadcasting in Windsor.  The opposition to this was
15     overwhelming.  Approximately, 8,000 voiced their
16     determined opposition and joined in a massive rally. 
17     Nearly 60,000 residents of the tricounty area signed a
18     petition opposing the loss of their local broadcaster. 
19     It should come as no shock that such a distinct
20     reaction was provoked in this region.  Windsor and its
21     surrounding area is a Canadian island surrounded by a
22     sea of Americanism.
23  885                  Studies, which a number of years ago
24     were presented to the CRTC by the City of Windsor,
25     proved how pervasive was the influence of our powerful


 1     American neighbour to the south and to the north from
 2     here, to our culture, to our politics and even sports
 3     in this region.
 4  886                  For instance, these studies show
 5     those watching American TV as opposed to those watching
 6     CBC are more likely, can you believe it, to prefer the
 7     Detroit Tigers to the Blue Jays.  And teaching
 8     political science at the University of Windsor, I have
 9     been repeatedly amazed at how much more local students
10     seem to know about American politics than their own,
11     about the U.S. President rather than the Canadian Prime
12     Minister, for instance.
13  887                  Although I realize the influence of
14     our huge neighbour to the south is also strong
15     throughout Canada, it is nonetheless especially so in
16     this region.
17  888                  The CBC must serve a central role in
18     preserving and promoting Canada's identity.  This can
19     be best fulfilled by ensuring that the regions are
20     properly reflected in its programs.  Perhaps there are
21     some in government, within the CBC itself, who would
22     prefer to see the money spent regionally go to the
23     centres.  However, such is, in my humble view, contrary
24     to the national interest.
25  889                  Getting back to this area once more,


 1     there is unfortunately considerable evidence of this in
 2     the current lack of priority given by CBC to this
 3     region.  Here CBET, for instance, runs its daily news
 4     coverage at 5:30, unfortunately too early for many
 5     returning from work.  Why not schedule local news from
 6     6:00 to 6:30 or preferably to seven o'clock?
 7  890                  Again, the late local news currently
 8     runs at 11:30, far too late for most viewers and I
 9     suspect most around this table to watch.
10  891                  Moreover, sadly on weekends, if you
11     can believe it, there is no coverage whatsoever of a
12     local nature on CBET.  The weekend news broadcasts are
13     from Toronto.  Despite such built-in inconveniences to
14     the local customers of CBC that station continues to
15     remain to be the most popular local news source for the
16     Lambton, Kent, Essex region.
17  892                  Without a doubt, the continuance of
18     local broadcasting is a crucial issue in Windsor. 
19     Local residents are disturbed about constant reports
20     that the highest leadership at the CBC, and also yes in
21     the corridors of government are less than fully
22     committed to regional broadcasting.
23  893                  Furthermore, it is critical that
24     regional broadcasting is maintained throughout Canada. 
25     It's elimination would jeopardize how Canadians relate


 1     to each other.  To reduce regional broadcasting, the
 2     inevitable consequence would be in the concentration of
 3     the CBC resources in the national centres, the major
 4     centres.  Of course in Ontario that means Toronto.  But
 5     Toronto is not Ontario, nor is it Canada.
 6  894                  Another concern felt by many and
 7     referred to this evening is the increasing tendency by
 8     the government to extend political control over CBC. 
 9     This is done by the appointments of the President and
10     Directors to the Board of CBC.  Other steps appear to
11     be in the making, as had been mentioned this evening,
12     to further tighten this control.
13  895                  The appointment of a CBC president as
14     well as that of its board of directors should be the
15     responsibility of multiparty committee of the House of
16     Commons.  This is most essential with a public
17     broadcaster such as the CBC, for it will naturally step
18     on the toes of politicians from all parties from time
19     to time.
20  896                  Recently, we have all observed what
21     appears to be the hypersensitivity, at least in my
22     view, on the part of the Prime Minister in the
23     well-publicized Milewski affair.  CBC should be
24     encouraged to do more not less in depth public affairs
25     analysis.  TV broadcasting by CBC has, in recent years,


 1     done too little of this.  I think Ontario TV is doing
 2     perhaps a better job at the moment in this regard.
 3  897                  In addition, the CBC's role is a
 4     positive one for working journalists.  Indeed, those
 5     columnists who are the cheerleaders for various schemes
 6     to privatize the CBC I suggest suffer from tunnel
 7     vision.  Without the CBC, the standard of Canadian
 8     journalism would be reduced.  Too few news outlets
 9     disseminate news now.  Frequently, it is too
10     homogenized and frequently suffers from a "good feel
11     and an inoffensive manner".
12  898                  Historically, the CBC has been the
13     most significant outlet that is prepared to explore and
14     delve into public issues.  Investigative reporting on
15     the Somalia affair, the Airborne Regiment, the recent
16     matters pertaining to APEC and the students in
17     Vancouver readily come to mind.  In addition, the CBC
18     has run superb pieces on the future of the Canadian
19     health system.
20  899                  The CBC should be applauded for its
21     sponsorship of town hall meetings which include
22     politicians representing various parties.  I recognize
23     the Prime Minister may not have forgiven the CBC for
24     one such meeting.  Nevertheless, such programs are a
25     substantial public service and the CBC should be


 1     encouraged to continue them.
 2  900                  Regrettably, I have no confidence in
 3     the private sector's willingness to do this in a manner
 4     that will truly reflect the diversity of the public
 5     interest.
 6  901                  Programs such as Witness, Prime Time
 7     News, the Nature of Things, Market Place, As it
 8     Happens, Royal Canadian Air Farce, Fifth Estate, among
 9     others stand out as excellent productions.  However,
10     CBC could do a better job of acquainting Canadians, I
11     suggest, with the nation's history.  This is especially
12     important now with the inexplicable withdrawal of
13     Canadian history from so many educational curriculums.
14  902                  Moreover, while there is an excellent
15     business coverage, as was mentioned earlier this
16     evening, on Newsworld, not much attention is given to
17     labour news, working class news.  Repeatedly, I have
18     noticed too many economic analysis that have been
19     debated by panellists from either a financial or a
20     banking viewpoint as though their word represented the
21     gospel.  Making this point, I quarrel not with their
22     participation but with the repeated lack of diversity
23     that sometimes occurs on Newsworld panels that
24     especially deal with economic matters.
25  903                  In conclusion, contrary to the


 1     reasoning of those that advocate a minor role, a more
 2     limited role, an irrefutable argument exists for a
 3     stronger public broadcasting system in Canada.  It is
 4     imperative at both the national and at the regional
 5     level.  With the expanding regional cleavages that we
 6     see throughout this country, with the Quebec issue,
 7     with the ascendancy of the United States and with
 8     globalization increasingly becoming ever and ever a
 9     greater part of our lives, the urgency is greater now
10     than ever for wholehearted support for Canadian public
11     broadcasting.
12  904                  I urge the CRTC to urge the
13     government to give the kind of support and endorsation
14     that the CBC requires in order that Canadians will be
15     even better served than they are at the present time
16     through the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation.
17  905                  I would like to thank the CRTC for
18     giving us this opportunity to provide input on a matter
19     of such crucial national and local importance.
20  906                  Thank you.
21  907                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
22     much, Mr. Pawley, and to everyone in our first group. 
23     We certainly appreciate your being here.
24  908                  As I said, the point is for us to
25     listen to you.  So our lack of questions does not


 1     denote a lack of interest.  It is an effort on our
 2     parts to listen and to hear from everyone.
 3  909                  We have a group of approximately six
 4     people and perhaps some people from our first group
 5     have joined us.  I'm suggesting that we take a short
 6     break of about 10 minutes, it is now 7:15, and
 7     reconvene at 7:25, and hear from Sandra Pupatello,
 8     Corey Tomkimson, Mr. Marentette I think, JoAnne
 9     Merritt, Paul Hartel and Nora McLaren.
10  910                  Anybody else who has joined us -- I
11     think we have another name already -- this evening who
12     would like to add their name to the list, please do so
13     and see Mr. Rhéaume here.
14  911                  So a short break of 10 minutes.  See
15     you at 7:25.
16     --- Recess at 1915 / Suspension à 1915
17     --- Upon resuming at 1925 / Reprise à 1925
18  912                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  (Off
19     microphone/sans microphone...)  come to the table: 
20     Mr. Sachs, Sandra Pupatello, Corey Tomkimson,
21     Roland Marentette, JoAnne Merritt, Paul Hartel and
22     Nora -- are you Nora?
23  913                  MS McLAREN:  I'm Nora McLaren.
24  914                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Nora McLaren.
25  915                  Mr. Sachs is also here, but my


 1     colleague is not.  I think he is having his cigarette.
 2     --- Pause / Pause
 3  916                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  As you begin to
 4     speak, would you state your name.
 5  917                  Would you also just take a little
 6     time so that our technician has your microphone well
 7     adjusted before you get into too much of your
 8     presentation.  So saying your name nice and slowly will
 9     give him a chance to adjust the microphone and let me
10     know if it needs to be brought more forward.
11  918                  We will begin the second round of the
12     public consultations.  I would like to invite
13     Mr. Sachs, Jonathan Sachs to speak.
15  919                  MR. SACHS:  My name is
16     Jonathan Sachs.  I am a U.S. citizen.  I joke with my
17     friends that that is an accident of birth not of
18     choice.  Nevertheless, all my family are also Americans
19     and so I wouldn't ever want to be thought anti-
20     American.
21  920                  I probably should also say that
22     neither I nor my wife nor any of my family or friends,
23     to my knowledge, work for the CBC.  So I'll say that
24     before I praise it.
25  921                  I have lived in five U.S. states and


 1     maybe I'm just repeating what has been said by Canadian
 2     citizens here tonight, but there is a difference in
 3     sensibility and values between American media and the
 4     CBC, as I believe there is a difference between the
 5     sensibilities and values -- yes, they have been
 6     stereotyped, but -- of the U.S. in general and Canada
 7     in general.
 8  922                  There is no lack of media to propound
 9     U.S. values to Canadians.  As has been pointed out,
10     that's particularly true here in Windsor and these
11     values, among others are individualism and competition,
12     looking out for number one and keeping your eye on the
13     bottom line.  I think our local print media
14     particularly do this effectively.  But I'm very glad
15     for the CBC and its role in representing values that I
16     identify with of caring for one another, of not
17     evaluating people only in terms of financial outlook or
18     factors like that.
19  923                  When I look at CBC television and
20     listen to CBC radio, what I see and here is
21     intelligence and integrity and values with which I
22     identify, and most of all people who take pride in
23     their work.  Without wanting, in any way, to undermine
24     other media outlets within Canada, I believe that the
25     CBC is very much needed and I would like not only to


 1     have its mission continued but enhanced.
 2  924                  That's all I have to say.
 3  925                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 4     much, Mr. Sachs.
 5  926                  Our next presenter is Sandra
 6     Pupatello.  If you would come to the table.  Good
 7     evening.
 8  927                  As I said earlier in my opening
 9     remarks, in order to make sure that we hear everyone,
10     we are not asking any questions this evening to assure
11     that we have enough time.  So please don't consider a
12     lack of questions a lack of interest.  We prefer to
13     listen to you with your remarks.
14  928                  At the end of the remarks, the CBC
15     will have an opportunity to make a few comments as
16     well.
17  929                  So, without further ado,
18     Madam Pupatello, if you would like to proceed.
19  930                  MS PUPATELLO:  May I ask just one
20     question as to who the representatives from CRTC are?
21  931                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  I am
22     Joan Pennefather.  Myself and Donald Rhéaume, the legal
23     counsel.
25  932                  MS PUPATELLO:  First, let me start by


 1     showing my appreciation for coming to speak before you
 2     today.  I did prepare some remarks.  There are
 3     certainly not enough copies for the guests around the
 4     table.
 5  933                  In 1990, CBC closed our local station
 6     and the effect was felt immediately.  I distinctly
 7     remember the 1990 municipal election when I realized
 8     there would be no special coverage of election results
 9     that night.  I was very angry --
10  934                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Excuse me.
11  935                  MS PUPATELLO:  Yes?
12  936                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Just pull your
13     microphone a little towards you and we will be sure we
14     get all your remarks registered on the public record.
15  937                  MS PUPATELLO:  Thank you.
16  938                  There would be no special coverage of
17     election results that night in 1990.  I was very angry. 
18     Most were.  Behind Mayor John Millson, hundreds and
19     hundreds marched along Riverside Drive to save our
20     station.  It was quite a sight.
21  939                  For those of you visiting Windsor
22     today, you may not realize that geographically Essex
23     County is practically entirely flanked by the United
24     States and this county is actually south of Michigan. 
25     One of many claims to fame is to be the most southerly


 1     portion of Canada parallelled with California.  If you
 2     think this makes us the most American of our Canadian
 3     colleagues, it's the opposite.
 4  940                  We have the best stories of all
 5     describing our dear American friends' incapability of
 6     knowing much about our country politically,
 7     historically or geographically.  The legend anecdotes
 8     of Americans arriving at our Windsor border in the heat
 9     of July saying, "We are going to Montreal.  We want to
10     ski", complete with skiis tied to the roof rack, really
11     make them more endearing to us.  What is so amazing
12     about our Canadian attitude is that we can be so
13     fiercely defensive about just how Canadian we are
14     despite our isolation.  One might think we were sitting
15     in Kenora, Inuvik or Whitehorse instead of Windsor when
16     I say "isolation".
17  941                  Before I appear gushing over the
18     merits of CBC, let me say practically that, today,
19     during a strike at the CBC, we have significant parts
20     of Essex County with no Canadian television news or
21     programming.  Cable is not extended throughout the
22     county and transmission of the closest thing to local
23     programming is nothing but a chaotic series of dots on
24     a screen.
25  942                  This may be surprising to you.  CBC,


 1     for a large part of our country, is the only Canadian
 2     television news and programming station.  This in a
 3     county which boasts a GDP value of $26 billion equal to
 4     that of Manitoba, greater than Saskatchewan and greater
 5     than the four Atlantic provinces combined.  No wonder
 6     our municipal leadership is so vital and deserving of
 7     coverage during a civic election.  That's a significant
 8     percentage of national tax revenue, part of which
 9     finances the CBC.
10  943                  I'm tired of having to rationalize to
11     the rest of the nation or have arguments ready in the
12     top drawer to fire at the inevitable next launch of: 
13     Why should we have our own local CBC station?
14  944                  The War of 1812 was fought right here
15     in this county which secured the future of the nation,
16     and that is reason enough for the next millennium.  I
17     think you owe us.
18  945                  Back to the role Canadian news and
19     programming plays in our identity, specifically
20     television.
21  946                  We are beating the odds down here. 
22     I'm not satisfied with the current role of the CBC.  I
23     want more not less from CBC.
24  947                  Young people walking down Olet(ph)
25     Avenue are likely to recognize Carmen Harland and


 1     Rich Fisher from the Detroit new stations before they
 2     would recognize Peter Mansbridge from our national news
 3     program.  Likewise, the watercooler talk on a Monday in
 4     Toronto is about the most hilarious episode of Air
 5     Farce.  Here Don Ferguson or Roger Abbott would likely
 6     not even turn a head.
 7  948                  Geographically, we may be swamped,
 8     but why is the annual trek of every Essex County high
 9     school student to Toronto inclusive of only the Science
10     Centre and Parliament Buildings and not to our CBC
11     buildings?  Shouldn't our educators be armed with an
12     imaginative package as a curriculum piece that
13     describes the purpose, history and value of this
14     national public broadcasting asset?  How else have
15     young people learned the value of Algonquin Park or how
16     do you explain increased awareness in the environmental
17     issues by young people today, except as a reflection of
18     what they are taught?
19  949                  Well, CRTC hearings are to result in
20     what?  A redefinition of CBC?  A bold new mandate?
21  950                  I like the old one.  I think we
22     should redefine how we choose to implement the mandate. 
23     Just so I'm certain, I'm assuming our need to quote a
24     past committee:
25                            " provide a forum for


 1                            debates, a source of support and
 2                            a showcase for our newest
 3                            talented artists and a mirror in
 4                            which we have seen ourselves." 
 5                            (As read)
 6  951                  This need still applies.
 7  952                  In this age of communications
 8     revolution it is needed now more than ever.  This same
 9     communications revolution should be of benefit to the
10     technology at CBC as it is to the rest of the world's
11     communication industry.  If the rest of the world is
12     coming in at a fierce pace, then I expect the CBC to be
13     getting out an equally fierce pace, out to every nook
14     and cranny of the nation, let alone the rest of the
15     world.
16  953                  Of course funding is an issue. 
17     Funding will inevitably be tied to what we value, and
18     that is a function of what we learn.
19  954                  The most important point I would like
20     to make tonight is concerning the leadership of the
21     CBC.  Tough questions are required to focus on how to
22     implement the mandate of the CBC, not deciding on what
23     the mandate of the CBC should be.  I like the one
24     that's founded in 1932.
25  955                  It's hard to understand this "CBC


 1     logo flap" becoming a major point of discussion as it
 2     was in a March 1st, 1999 Windsor Star editorial.  Every
 3     major television network features its logo continuously
 4     on screen.  That sounds like just plain good marketing
 5     so channel surfers know where on earth they are while
 6     they flick.  No major conspiracy here.
 7  956                  Instead, let's examine the benefit of
 8     purchasing American reruns to fill up the time slots. 
 9     Even the new speed Vision cable channel plays some
10     1960s Daytona 500 race at 3:00 in the morning.  Surely
11     a rerun of Canadian sporting events, like the famous
12     Canada-Russia hockey series would garner more interest. 
13     But it does change what people would see in their
14     public broadcast system, at least they would see
15     Canadian programming.  David Suzuki came long before
16     the Discovery channel and the Discovery channel was
17     profitable.
18  957                  My view is the mainstay of CBC must
19     be news and public affairs programming.  Local news and
20     local public affairs programming is particularly
21     essential despite the presence in major centres of
22     private services.  I say this with the caveat of the
23     CBC being truly at arm's length of the government. 
24     That to me means the government can only influence the
25     mandate of two bodies, the CRTC and the CBC, not the


 1     implementation of either one of its mandates.  Then,
 2     government can only change those mandates through our
 3     tried and true democratic process.
 4  958                  Funding will continue to be an issue. 
 5     Perhaps we always want more than we are prepared to
 6     pay.
 7  959                  My experience in the area of taxation
 8     so far as an elected representative for this area has
 9     been insightful.  Most feel we pay too much tax.  But
10     it is always accompanied by the frustration of poor
11     service or low value for what we have just paid for.
12  960                  The benefit of a nationally financed
13     CBC, although many question the level of financing as
14     do I, nonetheless saves us from the never ending
15     marathons and pleas of support to which our American
16     friends and even TVO must resort.  In other words, I
17     don't want to see the telethons on CBC.
18  961                  The CBC leadership needed the review
19     of implementation of mandate before installing across
20     the board cuts.  To make the CBC package a valued
21     commodity that meets its mandate is hard work, but I
22     believe the public is prepared to pay for something of
23     value.  Just like parents of adult children continue
24     through their taxes to pay for education for the
25     benefit of society as a whole, so too will we pay for a


 1     valued CBC even when we don't watch it.  Then we can
 2     only blame ourselves when we remember the last phrase
 3     from Walter Kronkite, but not the final farewell of
 4     Nolton Nash.
 5  962                  That concludes my prepared remarks.
 6  963                  Thank you.
 7  964                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 8     much, Ms Pupatello.
 9  965                  MS PUPATELLO:  (Off microphone/sans
10     microphone...)
11  966                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  We
12     would appreciate that.  Anybody else who has copies of
13     their remarks, if you would like to leave them with
14     Mr. Rhéaume.  Of course all of this is on the public
15     record, as you know, but it is helpful for us to have
16     your remarks.
17  967                  Our next participant.
18  968                  MR. RHÉAUME:  Thank you.  Our next
19     speaker is Mr. Corey Tomkimson.  No?
20  969                  Then we will go to Mr. Roland
21     Marentette.
23  970                  MR. MARENTETTE:  Hello, my name is
24     Roland Marentette.
25  971                  I guess I should tell you I was born


 1     and raised in this area, so I have been here for a long
 2     time.  I grew up with the CBC.  If it goes I will miss
 3     it.  I think a lot of Windsorites would probably feel
 4     the same way.
 5  972                  For the many years that I have been a
 6     Windsorite, I have come to rely on the local CBC
 7     affiliate to provide a definite Canadian touch to our
 8     local news.  Like many Canadians I view the CBC as my
 9     radio and television stations.  Sure some would argue
10     that there are other alternatives and that the CBC
11     would still exist if we were to continue to have a
12     national presence only.
13  973                  I would argue that the proliferation
14     of cable stations underscores the necessity of
15     maintaining a strong Canadian alternative.  The close
16     proximity to the United States can be overwhelming. 
17     The everyday bombardment of the American view of life
18     and priorities creates a challenge to parents who
19     resist the influence on their children.  The move by
20     the private sector to dominate the media creates a fear
21     that everyday Canadians will eventually lose the right
22     to hold them accountable.
23  974                  We only have to look to the
24     concentration of ownership of newspapers and the recent
25     challenge by American interests concerning Canadian


 1     content in magazines sold in Canada, thus the need for
 2     Bill C-55.  We as Canadians must protect the right to
 3     accountability that a properly funded and local CBC can
 4     provide.
 5  975                  What happens to our local news if the
 6     private sector decides to downsize?  This appears to be
 7     the way of doing business today.  Do the stations
 8     owners decide what stories get priority an how the
 9     stories are presented?  We have one newspaper in
10     Windsor and there are constant complaints about the
11     editorial viewpoint, but with no competing alternative
12     to provide balance it's take it or leave it.
13  976                  The CBC is a Canadian institution,
14     truly a part of our culture.  We have a very proud
15     history in Windsor and Essex County with a strong sense
16     of community.  Our local CBC has been a large part of
17     it.  In the mid-eighties I recall the local CBC
18     affiliate doing an excellent exposé on the plight of
19     the Windsor Bendex workers who were the victims of
20     exposure to asbestos in their workplace.  That story
21     mobilized the community to press for stronger health
22     and safety legislation and also the creation of the
23     Industrial Disease Panel, which provided workers with
24     crucial information about many occupational hazards and
25     disease.


 1  977                  On December the 16th, 1990, an
 2     estimated 5,000 to 7,000 Windsor and Essex Country
 3     residents protested the attempted closure of our local
 4     affiliate.  Every municipal council supported this
 5     initiative and actively participated in organizing the
 6     event.  This is an example of how important the CBC is
 7     to us.  At that time, many prominent local Liberal
 8     politicians, notably the now Deputy Prime Minister
 9     Herb Rae, commented on the shortsightedness of this
10     decision.  Coincidentally, the same Liberal politicians
11     were sitting in opposition at the time.  What a
12     difference an election makes.
13  978                  What management of CBC and the
14     federal government have done cannot be allowed to
15     continue.  The cutbacks have gone too far.  The CRTC
16     must make it very clear that the CBC has to provide
17     full service to all communities in Canada and that
18     means ensuring that the local stations be left intact. 
19     I would also strongly suggest that they be encouraged
20     to look at ways of restoring service in the communities
21     where they have been removed.
22  979                  You must recognize the important role
23     the CBC has in maintaining our distinct Canadian
24     culture and, just as importantly, your responsibility
25     to protect the interests of consumers and Canadians.


 1  980                  Thank you.
 2  981                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 3     much, Mr. Marentette.
 4  982                  Our next speaker.
 5  983                  MR. RHÉAUME:  The next speaker is
 6     JoAnne Merritt.
 8  984                  MS MERRITT:  Good evening.
 9  985                  My name is JoAnne Merritt, or as I
10     have often been referred to by our local CBC Morning
11     Watch host, the president of the loyal listeners club.
12  986                  When I learned of your coming to our
13     area, I felt compelled to speak to you about the CBC
14     and its importance to me.  I am a second generation CBC
15     listener and I'm doing my best to raise two third
16     generation listeners.  I am what I consider to be a
17     younger listener than the majority who regularly tune
18     in.  But I wasn't always a loyal listener.
19  987                  Like most teenagers, I used to listen
20     to loud in-your-face morning shows whose hosts were the
21     picture of cool and whose programs were nothing short
22     of flaky, give or take a joke or two.  It is my father
23     who bears responsibility for my conversion.  The CBC
24     was his station of choice in the morning, not mine,
25     unless of course there was a chance for school closure


 1     due to snow.
 2  988                  When I grew up and moved out and had
 3     my own children, I became boss of the radio dial.  It
 4     seemed that I was programmed though and it had remained
 5     stuck on the CBC 1550, an AM station.  My high school
 6     chums would never have believed it.
 7  989                  To this day, like making oatmeal or
 8     brushing my teeth, listening to the CBC has become an
 9     important part of my morning routine.  Why did this
10     happen?  You could call it a revelation or you could
11     just call it parenthood.
12  990                  Something happens to you when you
13     enter into the world of parenthood or at least it did
14     to me.  Identity became very important to me.  I found
15     it vital that my boys share a sense of pride in knowing
16     who they are.  We all need to know where our place is
17     in the world and how we fit in and what our social
18     responsibilities are.  We are Canadian, the passive,
19     friendly lot here in the north.
20  991                  We don't find the need to be boastful
21     about it, but rather the red and white flag that flies
22     in front of my children's school reminds them of this
23     each day.  The unique coins bearing pictures of beavers
24     and loons that fill their piggy banks, the licence
25     plate on their mom's car and of course the national


 1     anthem that they remove their hat and stand proudly for
 2     prior to the start of the hockey game are subtle
 3     reminders that they are Canadian.  They are proud of
 4     it, as am I.
 5  992                  So here it is.  Trust me when I tell
 6     you that I'm no musician, but if I had a harmonica in
 7     my pocket right now I would probably be playing you a
 8     little tune and it would definitely be the blues.  The
 9     border city blues.
10  993                  As a border city, we here in Windsor
11     live a stone's throw from our American neighbour
12     Detroit.  I'm not going to pretend that living so close
13     to a major U.S. city doesn't have its advantages
14     because it does.  We are close to a host of
15     restaurants, sports events and an array of concerts. 
16     When it is closing time, though, we like to come back
17     home to Windsor.
18  994                  Living in a city bordering the United
19     States is no easy task, though, when it comes to
20     maintaining our identity.  Some days it feels as though
21     we are but another suburb of Detroit.  The media
22     signals bounce across the river into our TVs, stereos
23     and car radios, so much so that it takes over the
24     airwaves.
25  995                  Our children hear so much of the


 1     American media that they begin to confuse or even
 2     mistake it for our own.  How many times have we
 3     listened to children describe a day in the life of the
 4     President of the United States but who can't put a name
 5     to the Prime Minister of Canada.  The level of American
 6     media content our families are exposed to through the
 7     course of a day is astounding.  As a parent, this
 8     concerns me.  This is where the CBC comes into play.
 9  996                  You see in that sea of U.S.
10     commercialize we can concede and hop aboard the luxury
11     liner with mega horsepower sponsored by corporate
12     America or we can climb into the CBC canoe and grab a
13     paddle.  The luxury liner will eventually run out of
14     gas, but the canoe will remain afloat and travel along
15     one stroke at a time.
16  997                  With all the cuts that have been
17     made, one has to wonder, though, how long the CBC can
18     remain afloat.  Those who have remained loyal to the
19     CBC wonder how much more it can possibly take.  I often
20     wonder how they manage to do it sometimes with only a
21     life preserver and a paddle remaining.
22  998                  You might wonder why I stick by the
23     CBC, with the variety of hit programs and entertainment
24     available to me just a channel away.  The CBC is
25     constant.  The CBC provides me with both a local and


 1     national picture of what's happening in the news.  The
 2     CBC covers the entire spectrum in news and
 3     entertainment.  I can hear about everything from the
 4     local church bizarre to the crisis on our east coast,
 5     and I can be sure that through the CBC my sister in
 6     Calgary, or my relatives in Newfoundland, are provided
 7     the same quality programming.  It makes us all somehow
 8     feel connected.
 9  999                  If not for the CBC, both radio and
10     television, I probably would not have been aware of the
11     superb talent my fellow Canadians possess, many of whom
12     the rest of North America are just beginning to
13     discover now.
14  1000                 We are fortunate here in Canada that
15     we maintain so many diverse cultures and therefore
16     cultivate a huge range of talents.  For example, my son
17     who, through CBC, spoke on the air with his idol
18     Fred Penner at the age of four is now an avid fan of
19     the Red Green Show at the age of 12.  His younger
20     brother has learned more about Canadian politics
21     through the Royal Canadian Air Farce than I ever knew
22     at the age of 10, and he also does a wonderful
23     impression of Preston Manning.  I feel you really
24     haven't experienced funny until you have listened to
25     Madly Off in All Directions.  I couldn't say enough


 1     about the sharp wit of Rick Mercer and the cast of This
 2     Hour Has 22 Minutes either.  One viewing and you are
 3     hooked.
 4  1001                 These folks actually allow us the
 5     unique experience of laughing at ourselves.  The CBC
 6     also allows the average citizen to have a voice which
 7     makes them feel as though what they think truly
 8     matters.
 9  1002                 The sports and weather reported by
10     the CBC are also uniquely Canadian.  Where else but on
11     CBC can you hear the national scores of our Canadian
12     teams without being smothered in hype or glitz?  That's
13     right, some of our Canadian teams haven't headed south
14     of the border and deserve our attention.
15  1003                 We also hear the scores from high
16     school sports and local leagues which the kid next door
17     or down the street plays for.  This is important to our
18     community.
19  1004                 In the weather department, some local
20     stations have actually given in when reporting the
21     weather and still give it in fahrenheit as our U.S.
22     neighbours do.  The CBC reports the weather for Windsor
23     in celsius as in the rest of Canada.
24  1005                 My high school math teacher would
25     actually be proud because, after all these years, it


 1     has sunk in and I have mastered celsius conversion
 2     without having to reach for a calculator.  22 degrees
 3     celsius really feels like 22 degrees celsius.
 4  1006                 Each summer as we vacation at my
 5     father's cottage up in the great white north outside
 6     Chapleau we are as remote as you can get.  It's a
 7     20-minute drive into the bush from any main road and a
 8     boat ride or a long bumpy car ride to a telephone. 
 9     Usually, the only sound that you can hear is the call
10     of the loon or the wind across the lake.  Hydro is a
11     luxury, and thanks to it the only other sound you can
12     hear on a summer's day is the sound of the CBC.  The
13     radio that sits propped on a lawn chair with tin foil
14     wrapped around the antennae for reception provides our
15     link to the rest of the country.
16  1007                 That is bliss.  A good breath of
17     fresh northern air and the sound of the CBC.
18  1008                 So you see, the CBC is important to
19     me and my family.  We learn, we laugh, we sing and we
20     listen to the CBC.  Whether I am miles deep in a bush
21     in northern Ontario or just minutes from the border of
22     our overpowering neighbour, the CBC succeeds at making
23     me feel Canadian.
24  1009                 Thank you.
25  1010                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, JoAnne.


 1  1011                 Our next speaker.
 2  1012                 MR. RHÉAUME:  Our next speaker is
 3     Paul Hartel.
 5  1013                 MR. HARTEL:  Thank you very much.
 6  1014                 I have a printed submission which I
 7     would like to enter into the record, but I would like
 8     to speak to a submission.
 9  1015                 First of all, I want to thank you for
10     coming to Windsor.  Windsor is a very unique community
11     and this whole region in southwestern Ontario is also
12     very unique.  Indeed, one of the former presenters made
13     a comment about its unique geographical
14     characteristics.
15  1016                 I believe that CBC radio and
16     television plays a vital role for the Windsor region. 
17     This station, Channel 9, and CBC radio, 1550, has
18     suffered very significantly big cuts by both the
19     Mulroney and Chrétien governments and their
20     administrations.  I believe that these budget cuts and
21     program cuts must be reversed and I believe therefore
22     Windsor needs more and not less CBC coverage.
23  1017                 This region has a dominant industrial
24     agricultural and multicultural profile.  Indeed, this
25     area is indeed one of perhaps the most multiculturally


 1     typical communities in Canada.  I believe that we need
 2     more service in both official languages.
 3  1018                 I don't think the service that is
 4     provided by the private sector does the job.  CBC does
 5     the job.  Profit guides the private sector and
 6     community thinking guides the CBC coverage.  I believe
 7     this is a value that must be supported.
 8  1019                 I'm a teacher.  I teach high school. 
 9     I work with the Essex Country Board of Education and
10     now the Greater Essex Board of Education for 28 years. 
11     I'm a history and social science teacher.  I use, its
12     vital for me in my job to use what the CBC provides to
13     us.
14  1020                 One particular program has to do with
15     the CBC news and review.  That series is very vital for
16     transmitting the issues, the value issues, the sense of
17     community across this nation and if we don't have this
18     available for our students, indeed we are the worse for
19     it.
20  1021                 In Ontario, the curriculum is being
21     changed.  We have to have a new civics program prepared
22     for Grade 10 students, and I tell you we need more
23     community programming to guarantee what we are supposed
24     to be teaching.  I want to really emphasize that point
25     with you.


 1  1022                 My students live very close to the
 2     American border here, as was presented earlier, and I
 3     need this vehicle to reassert their sense of community
 4     identity.  One of the units I teach has to do with our
 5     identity, and indeed the whole issue of the role of the
 6     CBC and the mass media in supporting and nurturing a
 7     Canadian identity is part of the discussion we have in
 8     this unit that I teach in my course for Grade 9 and
 9     Grade 10 students.  Please be assured that I need the
10     CBC.  That's my point.
11  1023                 My wife and I both enjoy the radio
12     programming immensely.  In fact, my wife has often
13     remarked that without the CBC her introduction to
14     Canadian society as a new immigrant to this country
15     would not have been as helpful and as full as what it
16     has become over the period of the last 30 years. 
17     Indeed, when we hear programming on Sunday's or, for
18     example, Otto Lowie's(ph) program, the Continental
19     program, things like this, news programming, this is
20     stuff that is vital for helping new Canadians become
21     part of our bigger community.  I speak for this point
22     from personal experience.  I wanted to share that with
23     you.
24  1024                 I like very much the television
25     programming.  Howard Pawley talked about public affairs


 1     programming such as the Fifth Estate and I agree with
 2     his list of points there.
 3  1025                 But we also like, my wife and I do
 4     like, such entertainment programs that come out on
 5     Sunday evening and two such as Emily of New Moon and
 6     Wind At My Back.  Those kind of programs in the
 7     entertainment sector are also very, very nice to watch
 8     and I think they are good.
 9  1026                 I wanted to respond to the questions
10     you put out in your public notice.  One of the
11     questions was:
12                            "How well does the CBC fulfil
13                            its role as the national public
14                            broadcaster?"  (As read)
15  1027                 I think the CBC is doing well, but I
16     want more.  I think the cuts have truly hurt.  I would
17     encourage the CBC to continue doing what it has been
18     doing well with.
19  1028                 Another question was:
20                            "How well does the CBC serve the
21                            public on a regional as well as
22                            a national level?"  (As read)
23  1029                 My feeling is that restoring funding
24     to Windsor will assure more regional programming that
25     meets our needs.


 1  1030                 This is a major automotive NAFTA
 2     region.  It's a major area for agriculture.  We used to
 3     have really big, in depth programs.  I know there was
 4     an agricultural program a few years ago.  This kind of
 5     stuff is gone.  I mean agriculture in Essex County is
 6     one of the fastest growing sectors of the economy. 
 7     There is more hectares under plastic for the tomato
 8     business than you would ever believe.  Therefore, I'm
 9     suggesting that we have to have programs that help us
10     understand our local region better.
11  1031                 With regard to current affairs
12     programs locally.  Sandra Pupatello commented about an
13     election.  Well, we can't get good community coverage
14     with three minutes on Percy's Panel, you know, three
15     minutes mid week.  We need more that's seriously
16     addressed.  I think the CBC can do this quite well.
17  1032                 A couple of other little things that
18     I wanted to mention in my submission that has to do
19     with the entertainment programming and arts coverage
20     with respect to the question:
21                            "Is there a special role that
22                            the CBC should play in the
23                            presentation of Canadian
24                            programming?"  (As read)
25  1033                 I really think that we have to


 1     encourage more in the entertainment sector.  It's sort
 2     of up and down and the fill-in with American program
 3     content is -- you know, it's been an outstanding
 4     question for years.  But I do think that attention to
 5     this sector is important.  We should not allow the CBC
 6     to withdraw from and allow just a total privatized
 7     entertainment market sector there.  I think there is a
 8     role.
 9  1034                 North of 60 is a good program that I
10     think reflects the Canadian identity.  With the
11     evolution of Nunavut I think clearly we are going to
12     have to pay more attention to our norther communities
13     in the realm of entertainment.  So that is my view
14     there.
15  1035                 The last thing I wanted to share is
16     my view on this debate on Channel 3, or this youth
17     channel discussion.  I think it is important to deal
18     with this within a CBC context so long as it meets the
19     objectives of strengthening the Canadian identity,
20     strengthening our communities, being nationalistic, if
21     you like, in a positive sense to assert that Canada is
22     a strong nation.
23  1036                 This is not just a commodity's
24     market-based society, in my view.  You know, this is a
25     community.  Our national heritage, our history is based


 1     on agreements between communities and regions of this
 2     country and I believe that we must encourage more of
 3     this in all that CBC does.  If it plays it out in the
 4     area of entertainment, as well as with youth
 5     programming, then, indeed -- just like back in 1932 or
 6     1936 when they had this first coast-to-coast broadcast: 
 7     Hello, Halifax; hello, Toronto; hello, Vancouver.  I
 8     have played that in my classes you know.  It's quite a
 9     funny thing to hear, you know?
10  1037                 But if the youth of Canada can hear
11     that "hello" from coast to coast, I think our future
12     will be better defined and I encourage the CRTC to take
13     these matters under consideration.
14  1038                 Thank you very much.
15  1039                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
16     Mr. Hertel.
17  1040                 We will go on now to another speaker
18     please.
19  1041                 MR. RHÉAUME:  The next speaker is
20     Nora McLaren.
22  1042                 MS McLAREN:  I can only echo what the
23     rest of the speakers have been saying to you.
24  1043                 Paul jogged in my memory something I
25     saw on CBC TV the other night.  It was an interview


 1     with a man who had been charged with smuggling from the
 2     U.S. to Canada.  He was a First Nations' person and his
 3     defence was that he was not smuggling because to him
 4     the word Kanata or Canada meant a small village and he
 5     was only bringing these goods from the U.S. soil to his
 6     First Nations' soil.  He was incarcerated for his
 7     misdeeds, but I doubt if his attitude will change much.
 8  1044                 Fortunately, last summer I was a
 9     guest on an Elder Hostel in Yellowknife and a Métis was
10     in charge of our education there, and he gave a totally
11     different attitude of our First Nations' people.  He
12     was half Indian and half French and made sure that we
13     knew that because he said half breeds are half native
14     and half English, so we knew where his loyalties were
15     lying.  But he would not be able to communicate as well
16     as he does if it had not been for, first of all, his
17     residential schooling, which he said was wonderful;
18     and, secondly, because of CBC he can reflect his
19     people's views.
20  1045                 Other than through Elder Hostel, he
21     can tell people who are broadcasting on CBC from the
22     Northwest Territories that this is part of our country,
23     our village, our small country.  He thinks of it as a
24     vast country because up there nothing is small.  The
25     sky is big, the forest fires are huge, the lakes are


 1     endless, the lands, the barrens, indescribable for
 2     anyone who has never seen them.
 3  1046                 I can't without emotion, obviously,
 4     say enough about my feelings as a Canadian, because in
 5     my early life I was a housewife who was totally
 6     isolated -- not in our north but in Welland County
 7     which is also along the U.S.A./Canadian border.  I had
 8     no telephone, no car, and babies, and you know they tie
 9     you very securely to the home.
10  1047                 CBC was my lifeline.  I had come from
11     a university milieu where I had people to talk to and
12     suddenly I had infants.  I mean, I wanted them, but who
13     knows how I would have coped if I hadn't had the
14     intellectual stimulus of CBC and the musical stimulus.
15  1048                 Fortunately, my three children and
16     their three mates and my eight grandchildren are all
17     following in my listening footsteps even though four of
18     them are, heaven forbid, living and working in
19     Michigan, but I see them frequently.
20  1049                 Recently, my daughter and I, to
21     preserve her foot in Canada, as she says, have
22     purchased a cottage in that area of Essex County that
23     is not being adequately served by CBC TV in Windsor.  I
24     say "not adequately" because their signal isn't strong
25     enough to be seen really clearly, as clearly as the


 1     American signals are.  So I'm one of those that only
 2     hears Canadian news in my car, from my car radio, now
 3     that I live in the boondocks of Essex County in the
 4     middle of the most profitable agricultural sector of
 5     Ontario.
 6  1050                 I notice a different attitude among
 7     the children, among the adults with whom I have been
 8     connecting these past two weeks since I moved.  It is
 9     why I moved to that part of our area, because I find it
10     distressing that our children, as Paul said, are
11     listening to American television predominantly and it's
12     very difficult to instruct them on Canadian values when
13     they aren't reinforced by your outer media, the media
14     that they are bombarded with daily, nightly, all the
15     time, in the middle of the night if they can't sleep.
16  1051                 I do try to echo all of those things
17     that I have heard from all the other speakers and I
18     thank you for your opportunity to let me say what I
19     have said.
20  1052                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  We thank you,
21     Mrs. McLaren.
22  1053                 Our next presenter is
23     Kerri Kavanaugh.
25  1054                 MS KAVANAUGH:  Good evening.


 1  1055                 I would like to take this time to say
 2     thank you for allowing us to fit in here.
 3  1056                 My name is Kerri Kavanaugh.  This is
 4     Summer Turnbull and Ernest Chiasson.  We will be
 5     speaking about implementing a multicultural youth
 6     education program.
 7  1057                 A way to improve the CBC's television
 8     broadcasting for the new millennium:  By strengthening
 9     Canada's youth, by providing an inclusive society
10     through which the implementation of better television
11     broadcasting to which people of all backgrounds, whose
12     identities are respected and recognized as vital to an
13     ever-evolving Canadian identity, feel a sense of
14     belonging and attachment to our country.
15  1058                 We feel that CBC should embrace the
16     federal Canadian multiculturalism policy to implement
17     more responsible youth-oriented programming geared
18     towards cultural diversity and awareness.
19  1059                 Because Canada has become one of the
20     most culturally diverse places to live in the world,
21     this education is essential in creating a solid
22     foundation for children before negative stereotypes are
23     produced.  This education is needed to better prepare
24     children for the ever-evolving multicultural world that
25     lies ahead.  These necessary life skills are needed to


 1     be successful in social aspects of life and as well as
 2     in the workplace when they grow up.
 3  1060                 Also, due to the geographic vastness
 4     of Canada, it may become impossible for our youth to
 5     experience a wide variety of cultures that Canada does
 6     have to offer.  CBC already displays a cast of
 7     multicultural characters on their shows.  However,
 8     there is little or no exhibition of these individuals'
 9     cultural backgrounds, therefore, masking any
10     differences that do exist.
11  1061                 We are aware that programs dealing
12     with this subject matter are available for adults,
13     however it is our youth that could benefit the most
14     from this bond-to-bond and instill patriotism in our
15     youth by providing a sense of involvement for them.
16  1062                 Based on the redesigned
17     multiculturalism goal, we are able to gain a better
18     understanding of what is needed to implement such a
19     program.  The goals are:  identity, which is fostering
20     a society that recognizes, respects and reflects a
21     diversity of cultures that such people of all
22     backgrounds feel a sense of and belonging and
23     attachment to Canada; civic participation, which is
24     developing among Canada's diverse people active
25     citizens with both the opportunity and the capacity to


 1     participate in shaping the future of their communities
 2     and their country and social justice; and building a
 3     society that ensures fair and equitable treatment and
 4     that respects the dignity of and accommodates people of
 5     all origins.
 6  1063                 These three goals are closely tied to
 7     some of the central social issues of our time.  These
 8     issues directly involve our children and our youth. 
 9     CBC could much improve their stability towards this
10     country as strong ties to child and youth programming
11     would be implemented, supporting not ignoring issues of
12     cultural diversity.
13  1064                 One of the strategies CBC planned to
14     implement was to make CBC as Canadian as possible.  We
15     urge those responsible for making these strategic
16     decisions to implement programs that would patriate
17     Canadians at an early age.
18  1065                 We appear to stand alone in a world
19     where everyone of second and third generation still
20     think of themselves in terms of their ethnic
21     background.  Since Canada is now well over 100 years
22     old, it is time for us to begin thinking of ourselves
23     primarily as Canadian while still embracing and
24     celebrating our diverse and ethnic backgrounds.
25  1066                 Summer has something.


 1  1067                 MS TURNBULL:  We are not ignoring the
 2     fact that the CBC does show a variety of different
 3     ethnic races.  I would like to make a reference to the
 4     show Pynjew(ph), which is a Japanese show.  However, we
 5     do feel that the programs that are offered lack
 6     multicultural differences in showing the different
 7     races, cultures, beliefs, values and entertainment.
 8  1068                 The decision made by the CRTC 87-40
 9     which states:
10                            "...a renewal of the CBC
11                            contract with particular focus
12                            on the youth and children.  The
13                            Commission believes that the CBC
14                            should develop alternative
15                            offerings which even if they
16                            attract fewer youth would at
17                            least give those it did attract
18                            a reflection and a sense of
19                            Canada."  (As read)
20  1069                 Thank you.
21  1070                 MS KAVANAUGH:  I'm sorry.  Also, with
22     that, in the CBC's recommendations for the CBC renewal
23     licence, it is stated that:
24                            "Children and youth represent
25                            the sum of 22% of our population


 1                            and are an especially important
 2                            group because they are a future
 3                            audience for Canadian
 4                            programming.  If we do step back
 5                            too quickly and abandon them to
 6                            the lure of imported programs or
 7                            channels, it is impossible they
 8                            will develop a taste for
 9                            domestic television later.  It
10                            is this direct connection they
11                            need to feel to our country." 
12                            (As read)
13  1071                 CBC is not meeting these guidelines
14     and providing a sense of cultural identity, no matter
15     what culture they may belong to.  It is this education
16     that is severely lacking.  And for CBC to continue in
17     the good manner in which they have been, they need to
18     educate our youths.  They are the most important ones
19     because they are going to be our future leaders.
20  1072                 Thank you.
21  1073                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Kerri.
22  1074                 Could you just clarify for me what
23     you were quoting from.  Is it the licence decision, the
24     1994 Licence Decision?
25  1075                 MS KAVANAUGH:  Yes.  But it's the


 1     licensing decision from July 27th, 1994, 94-4-37.
 2  1076                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 3     much.  Thank you to you all.
 4  1077                 That completes the list of names, but
 5     do you want to check back.
 6  1078                 MR. RHÉAUME:  Maybe we could ask
 7     again Mr. David Shragge; Mr. Dean La Bute;
 8     Dr. Alfie Morgan; and, finally, Mr. Corey Tomkimson.
 9  1079                 MR. SHIELDS:  Would it be possible to
10     add my name to it?
11  1080                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.  I was just
12     going to suggest, if there was anyone in the room who
13     would like to make a comment.
15  1081                 MR. SHIELDS:  Thank you for this
16     opportunity.  I hadn't anticipated speaking this
17     evening.
18  1082                 I'm fortunate enough to teach at the
19     University of Windsor and 17 of my students have
20     presented this evening in one of the two rooms here.
21  1083                 I teach telecommunication policy at
22     the university.  What I have noticed each of them speak
23     on was the inability of the CRTC to enforce the
24     conditions of licence that has been previously placed
25     on the CBC.


 1  1084                 Each of the groups have quoted the
 2     last conditions of licence that the CRTC laid out for
 3     the CBC and in each case the CBC failed to meet those
 4     conditions.
 5  1085                 I have heard many people this evening
 6     speak about the importance of an increased budget to
 7     the CBC, which is an absolute necessity and I more than
 8     agree with that.  My concerns lie in somehow for the
 9     CRTC to provide, make some form of provision, whereby
10     the CBC becomes more accountable to their conditions of
11     licence.  The failures are rampant throughout the last
12     conditions of licence.  There are many instances.  I
13     don't feel there is a need for me to go into them.  I
14     think many of the students this evening have gone
15     through many of the topics.
16  1086                 Let me point out that the funding for
17     my education came from the CBC.  I have been fortunate
18     enough to play the lead in three of their movies, a
19     lead in their series, and I have made several
20     documentaries with the CBC.  I feel very fortunate to
21     live in a country that allows for a corporation such as
22     the CBC to exist.  However, if the CRTC intends to
23     place conditions on the licence of the CBC and intends
24     for those conditions to be played out, then, history
25     has told us that the CBC perhaps might not do that. 


 1     I'm not certain of a mechanism that would allow for
 2     that, but I would hope the CRTC would consider those
 3     infractions.
 4  1087                 Thanks very much.
 5  1088                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much
 6     for those comments.
 7  1089                 Are there any other people in the
 8     room who would like to say a few words and join us at
 9     the table?
10  1090                 If not, could I ask, Mr. Taylor --
11     are you ready to comment right now, Mr. Taylor from the
12     CBC?
14  1091                 MR. TAYLOR:  Madam Chair, this
15     afternoon, on behalf of the CBC, I would like to thank
16     all those who took the time and who cared enough to
17     make presentations to you about the services that we
18     provide.
19  1092                 My name is Bruce Taylor.  I represent
20     English television, and have made copious notes to make
21     sure that all of those issues which relate to English
22     television get back to the proper places.
23  1093                 My colleagues representing CBC radio,
24     CBC English radio, CBC French radio and television, at
25     this time they are all here, as well as are similar


 1     representatives in the other room also making sure that
 2     that happens.
 3  1094                 So once again, thank you very much;
 4     and thank you to the Commission for coming to Windsor
 5     so that these people could make their comments,
 6     concerns, ideas and suggestions known.
 7  1095                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 8     much, Mr. Taylor.
 9  1096                 I would like to take the opportunity
10     to thank everyone who participated in this process this
11     afternoon and this evening in Windsor.  I'm sure my
12     colleague across the barrier there will be also
13     thanking or has already thanked the participants.  This
14     process is only as successful as the participation of
15     Canadians across the country who come forward to
16     express their views.
17  1097                 After our days here in Windsor and
18     Sudbury, we cannot help but see that community and
19     others are certainly ready to come forward and express
20     their views.
21  1098                 I have often asked:  What are the
22     themes that are emerging?  Without breaking any rules,
23     I think I can say quite clearly that there certainly is
24     a sense of community here in Windsor that was
25     unmistakeable, and I really appreciate you bringing


 1     that forward to our attention, and all the unique
 2     aspects of this particular area of the country.
 3  1099                 J'aimerais remercier tout le monde
 4     qui est venu ce soir et pendant l'après-midi pour nous
 5     apporter leurs réflexions sur l'avenir de Radio-Canada. 
 6     J'aimerais remercier aussi notre reporteur et
 7     technicien.
 8  1100                 Sorry, to the technician for the ups
 9     and downs of the microphones, but as Nicholas will
10     remember if there is one thing that is sure, at his
11     film screening the old fashioned bulbs will once in
12     awhile go.  They will always pop on you.
13  1101                 Thank you very much to everyone. 
14     Thank you to my colleague.  Once again, we really
15     appreciate your participating in this consultation.
16  1102                 As I said in my earlier remarks, the
17     hearings for the licence renewals are at the end of May
18     in Hull and you can participate in that hearing through
19     writing to the CTC.
20  1103                 Thank you again.
21  1104                 That closes the public consultations.
22  1105                 One final note, though.  We did say
23     we would go until 10:00.  My colleague and I will
24     remain here for a short while just in case somebody
25     does come in a little later, but I think not.  I think


 1     if anybody was coming down tonight they would be here
 2     by now.  So I feel comfortable to say goodnight to you
 3     all and thank you.
 4     --- Recess at 2030 / Suspension à 2030
 5     --- Upon resuming at 2035 / Reprise à 2035
 6  1106                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Tomkimson is
 7     here.
 8  1107                 Are you ready to go?  Whenever you
 9     are ready we are ready to hear you.
11  1108                 MR. TOMKIMSON:  Before I begin, I
12     would like to make the point that I am here strictly as
13     a member of the public and as a viewer, an audience
14     member of the CBC.
15  1109                 My presentation has to do with the
16     military, the Canadian forces and the Department of
17     National Defence, and I want you to know that I am not
18     representing them.  These are my own views and do not
19     necessarily reflect the views of the Canadian forces in
20     any way, just as a common disclaimer.
21  1110                 I would like to begin by saying that
22     there is a lack of representation for a large group of
23     loyal Canadians.  People from all walks of life, from
24     St. John's to Victoria, and Alert to Windsor, risk
25     their lives on a daily basis at home and abroad.  These


 1     people are those standing on guard for thee.
 2  1111                 When one mentions the Canadian
 3     forces, many conjure up images of hazing rituals and
 4     the Somalia scandal.  The mainstream media has not been
 5     kind to the men and women associated with the Canadian
 6     military.  In the past, a lack of fairness has been
 7     voted towards the Canadian military in covering vital
 8     stories.  We know this from the Oka crisis of 1990,
 9     Operation Desert Storm in 1991 and the events leading
10     to the Somalia Inquiry.
11  1112                 Yes, these are newsworthy items and
12     they deserve to be reported to Canadians, we, as the
13     public have a right to know.  But the CBC also
14     broadcasts miniseries such as The Valour and the Horror
15     from which many upset veterans came forward.
16  1113                 The problem is beyond bad press there
17     is a deep-rooted misunderstanding of our country's
18     Department of National Defence, and this I feel is
19     largely due to ignorance.
20  1114                 To change this, the Canadian public
21     must be educated.  The CBC as a national public
22     broadcaster has the means to do it.  Canadians should
23     become aware of the real military and meet the real
24     people who continue to make it function.  The CBC has a
25     vast broadcasting network capable of reaching the


 1     majority of Canadians and has the resources to produce
 2     quality programming with limited financial needs.
 3  1115                 A program which is 100 per cent
 4     Canadian, inexpensive, simple to produce which serves a
 5     single unique purpose is the stuff that dreams are made
 6     of for broadcasters such as the CBC.
 7  1116                 I'm sure most of you are well aware
 8     of the recent events in which the military were
 9     involved in great numbers.  For example, the Saguenay
10     Flood in Quebec; the Red River Flood in Manitoba;
11     Ice Storm '98 which, as you know, disabled most of
12     eastern Ontario and western Quebec; Hurricane Mitch in
13     Central America; and most recently the snow induced
14     state of emergency in Toronto.  Only during these
15     crisis did the military receive a favourable coverage
16     for their swift action in saving lives and putting
17     their fellow human beings first.  You might think the
18     Canadian forces are mainly involved with the United
19     Nations' peacekeeping missions.  Well, here are some
20     numbers for your information.
21  1117                 This year, the total regular force
22     consists of approximately 60,000 personnel.  The
23     reserves hold an additional 30,000.  A total of 20,000
24     civilians are employed by the DND and the Canadian
25     forces.  From a total of approximately 110,000


 1     personnel, nearly 1,400 are currently serving with the
 2     UN in peacekeeping duties.
 3  1118                 So what else is there to know?  Well,
 4     perhaps you would be interested in knowing how many
 5     lives were saved last year by the men and women who
 6     performed search and rescue patrols from sea to sea and
 7     everywhere in between.  Perhaps you would like to know
 8     who the Canadian rangers are and how they assist the
 9     Inuit peoples of the north.  What about a youth
10     training organization which currently holds a
11     membership of over 15,000?
12  1119                 Yes, there are many aspects of
13     military life never explored by the mainstream media. 
14     A program dedicated to understanding privates to
15     generals, their families, their jobs and how it all
16     effects Canadians would benefit both the misunderstood
17     military and the misinformed public.  This program I'm
18     speaking of would span the three elements -- army, navy
19     and air force -- and would look at everything from
20     fighter pilots to cooks, doctors to musicians, and
21     clerks to the chief of defence staff themselves.
22  1120                 Now I come to the question:  Why the
23     CBC?  Why not a private broadcaster?
24  1121                 The answer is twofold.  First, from
25     the perspective of journalism, the CBC must inform the


 1     public on all aspects of the Canadian military, not
 2     focusing mainly on the negative while only portraying
 3     the limited positive undertakings.
 4  1122                 Secondly, the CBC, as a public
 5     broadcaster, is required to foster a Canadian sense of
 6     culture and identity.  By offering an insight to the
 7     Canadian people of who and what their tax dollars
 8     support, the CBC would satisfy one part of their
 9     mandate.  The CBC, with the support of National
10     Defence, could put such a program in Canadian living
11     rooms.
12  1123                 I understand the force's population
13     of approximately 110,000 may seem small in contrast to
14     the audience of the CBC, but the numbers I spoke of
15     earlier are just enrolled personnel.  Multiply that by
16     three and you might have a rough estimate of military
17     dependence.  So over 330,000 people's lives, who we as
18     a public are not aware, represents a reason in its own
19     for a creation of this type of programming.
20  1124                 I urge the members of the CRTC here
21     before me to seriously consider what I have brought to
22     your attention.  If steps are taken immediately to
23     investigate the possibility of this type of
24     programming, perhaps we as Canadians can once again be
25     proud of the men and women who risk their lives and


 1     stand on guard for thee.
 2  1125                 Thank you.
 3  1126                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 4     much, Mr. Tomkimson.
 5  1127                 I said in my opening remarks this
 6     afternoon and this evening that in order to allow
 7     everyone to speak we would not ask questions, so please
 8     don't take my not asking a question as any comment on
 9     your remarks.
10  1128                 Also, as you know, your remarks are
11     entered into the public record and they will join the
12     public record of the CRTC hearing at the end of May, at
13     the hearings in May, which will look into the renewal
14     of licences, all the CBC licences.  So your remarks
15     will be carried forward to that hearing as well.
16  1129                 MR. TOMKIMSON:  Okay.
17  1130                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  If you wish to make
18     any further comment at the renewal of the CBC licences,
19     you can do so by writing to the CRTC and the public
20     notices will allow you to know what the timing is for
21     that as well.
22  1131                 MR. TOMKIMSON:  Okay.
23  1132                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  CBC has also been
24     here at all our sessions and are asked to make any
25     comments at the end of the evening, so I would like


 1     them to speak to you as well.
 3  1133                 MR. TAYLOR:  Mr. Tomkimson, I'm
 4     Bruce Taylor from CBC Television.  I would just like to
 5     say thank you for taking the time to make a
 6     presentation about the service we provide, and we have
 7     taken due note.
 8  1134                 Thank you very much.
 9  1135                 MR. TOMKIMSON:  Okay.  Thank you very
10     much.
11     --- Whereupon the consultation concluded at 2015 /
12         Le consultation se termine à 2015

Date modified: