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Providing Content in Canada's Official Languages

Please note that the Official Languages Act requires that government publications be available in both official languages.

In order to meet some of the requirements under this Act, the Commission's transcripts will therefore be bilingual as to their covers, the listing of CRTC members and staff attending the hearings, and the table of contents.

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded verbatim transcript and, as such, is transcribed in either of the official languages, depending on the language spoken by the participant at the hearing.



                       SUBJECT / SUJET:

                  SOCIÉTÉ RADIO-CANADA (SRC)

HELD AT:                                TENUE À:

Drayton Room                            Salle Drayton
The Coast Edmonton                      Hôtel Coast
Plaza Hotel                             Edmonton Plaza
10155 - 105 Street                      10155 - 105 Street
Edmonton, Alberta                       Edmonton (Alberta)

March 18, 1999                          Le 18 mars 1999

tel: 613-521-0703         StenoTran         fax: 613-521-7668


In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages
Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be
bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members
and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded
verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in
either of the official languages, depending on the language
spoken by the participant at the public hearing.


Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues
officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront
bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des
membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience
publique ainsi que la table des matières.

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu
textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée
et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues
officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le
participant à l'audience publique.


                 Canadian Radio-television and
                 Telecommunications Commission

              Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des
                télécommunications canadiennes

                  Transcript / Transcription

              Public Hearing / Audience publique

                  SOCIÉTÉ RADIO-CANADA (SRC)


Cindy Grauer                            Chairperson / Présidente


Carolyn Pinsky                          Commission Counsel /
                                        Avocate du Conseil

Michelle Edge                           Western and Territories 
                                        Regional Office / Bureau
                                        régional, Ouest du Canada
                                        et Territoires

HELD AT:                                TENUE À:

Drayton Room                            Salle Drayton
The Coast Edmonton                      Hôtel Coast
Plaza Hotel                             Edmonton Plaza
10155 - 105 Street                      10155 - 105 Street
Edmonton, Alberta                       Edmonton (Alberta)

March 18, 1999                          Le 18 mars 1999




Presentation by / Présentation par:

Hon. Charles Dent                                            5

Mr. Dave Jones                                              12

Ms Audrea Wulf                                              16

Ms Ruth McCullough                                          19

Mr. Eric Blanchette                                         25

Mr. Brian Lendrum                                           28

Mr. Peter Copyright                                         32

Mr. Larry Bagnell                                           37

Mr. Larry Bagnell                                           44
(Association of Yukon Communities)

Ms Kathy Watson                                             51

Mr. John Irving                                             64

Ms Barbara Drury                                            67

Ms Jennifer Nesbitt-Dufor                                   69

Ms Gail Noble                                               73

Mr. Brad Heath                                              79

Mr. Bill Powless                                            83

Mr. Ben McDonald                                            91

Mr. John Bayly                                              99

M. Maurice Morin                                           109

Ms Dawn Green-Shelton                                      116




Presentation by / Présentation par:

M. Alain François                                          118

Ms Caroline Nielsen                                        120

M. Yves Caron                                              121

Ms Alison Dinwoodie                                        125

Ms Hazel Wilson                                            132

Mme Louisette Villeneuve                                   135

Mr. David Balcon                                           140

Ms Lynn Rubizna                                            145

Mr. Nicholas Spillios                                      159

La soeur Ida LaFrance                                      167

Mr. Walter Doskoch                                         171

Mr. Samuel King                                            175

Ms Erica Bullwinkle                                        182

Mr. Jim Borgel                                             188

Mr. Samuel Abernathy                                       192

Mr. Bill Lock                                              195

Ms Katherine Weinmann                                      200

Mr. Webb Dussome                                           203

Mme Patricia Rijavec                                       208

Ms Jenny Frost                                             212

Mr. Ned Toole                                              220

Ms Michelle Wilson                                         223




Presentation by / Présentation par:

Mr. Randy Boissonnault                                     230

Ms Nicollete Saina                                         243

Ms Valerie Warke                                           256

Ms Joan Kneshe                                             262

Ms Marilyn Wall                                            264

Reply by: / Réplique par:

Ms Marie Wilson                                            105

Mr. Rene Fontaine                                          152

Mr. Don Orchard                                            237



 1                      Edmonton, Alberta / Edmonton (Alberta)
 2     --- Upon commencing on Thursday, March 18, 1999
 3         at 1320 / L'audience reprend le jeudi
 4         18 mars 1999, à 1320
 5  1                    THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good day, ladies
 6     and gentlemen, and welcome to this public consultation
 7     on the CBC.  My name is Cindy Grauer and I am a CRTC
 8     Commissioner.
 9  2                    We are here to gather your views and
10     comments on CBC radio and television:  In your opinion,
11     how should the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation fulfil
12     its role in the coming years?
13  3                    Radio-Canada est un service public
14     national qui diffuse en français comme en anglais.  Il
15     joue un rôle important dans l'ensemble du système de
16     radiodiffusion canadienne.  Aujourd'hui de nombreux
17     éléments s'ajoutent continuellement au système à cause
18     de nouvelles technologies qui se multiplient,
19     convergent, ouvrent de nouveaux horizons et offrent de
20     plus en plus de nouveaux services.
21  4                    Given that, it is very important that
22     the Commission hears what you have to say.  We must not
23     lose sight of the fact that the CRTC is a public
24     organization that serves Canadian citizens.  In this
25     capacity, we are responsible to you.


 1  5                    This is why my fellow Commissioners
 2     and myself find it vital to come and meet with you to
 3     discuss these issues and why we are holding this series
 4     of regional consultations from one end of the country
 5     to the other, in 11 Canadian cities, from March 9th to
 6     18th.
 7  6                    Elle vous donne l'occasion de nous
 8     faire part de nos opinions sur le rôle de Radio-Canada,
 9     le genre d'émissions qu'ils vous proposent et
10     l'orientation qu'ils devraient se donner à la veille du
11     nouveau millénaire aussi bien à l'échelle nationale
12     qu'aux échelles régionales et locales.
13  7                    Through these consultations we hope
14     to enter into an open dialogue with you and hear your
15     concerns.  Your comments will form part of the public
16     record, which will be added to the record of the public
17     hearing on the CBC that will begin in Hull next May
18     25th.
19  8                    At this upcoming hearing the
20     Commission will examine the CBC's application for the
21     renewal of its licences, including radio, television
22     and its specialty services Newsworld and Réseau des
23     Informations.
24  9                    You can also take part in that public
25     hearing by sending your written comments to the CRTC. 


 1     If you wish to do so, please remember to refer to the
 2     specific licence renewals being examined when you file
 3     your comments.
 4  10                   I would like to come back to today's
 5     consultations.
 6  11                   Please allow me to introduce the CRTC
 7     staff who will be assisting us today:  Caroline Pinsky,
 8     our legal counsel; and Michelle Edge, from our Western
 9     and Territories Regional Office.
10  12                   Please feel free to call on them with
11     any questions you might have about the process today or
12     any other matter.
13  13                   So that you will all have the
14     opportunity to speak, we ask that you please limit your
15     presentations to ten minutes.  As these consultations
16     are a forum designed specifically for you, and we will
17     want to listen to as many participants as possible, we
18     will not ask any questions unless we need
19     clarification.
20  14                   At the end of the session,
21     representatives from the local CBC stations will have a
22     chance to offer their views, as they are naturally very
23     interested in the issues we are discussing here today.
24  15                   Before we start, I will ask our legal
25     counsel to go over some housekeeping matters regarding


 1     the conduct of this consultation.
 2  16                   MS PINSKY:  Thank you.  I would just
 3     like to set out a couple of procedural matters.
 4  17                   In terms of how we will organize the
 5     session this afternoon, first we will be speaking with
 6     all of the presenters through our conference call in
 7     Yellowknife, Inuvik and Whitehorse, and then we will
 8     call upon the presenters here in Edmonton.
 9  18                   When we do that, the presenters here
10     in the hotel can take a seat around the table,
11     hopefully to create more of an informal atmosphere.  I
12     will call in turn on each presenter to make his or her
13     ten-minute presentation.
14  19                   When you are called upon, if you
15     could press the button on the microphone so that the
16     presentation is accurately transcribed, that will
17     assist matters.
18  20                   We have translation services
19     available here today, so if anybody should require a
20     translation device you can obtain one at the desk at
21     the entrance of the room.
22  21                   In addition, for those who are here
23     today but don't wish to make oral presentations, we do
24     have comment sheets available at the front desk.  You
25     can put your comments in writing and they will be


 1     placed on the public record of this process.
 2  22                   I would call upon the first presenter
 3     in Yellowknife.
 4  23                   I will just clarify, before we hear
 5     from the first presenter, that once we conclude all the
 6     presenters on the conference call, then we will give
 7     the CBC an opportunity to respond to those
 8     presentations as the line, I believe, will be cut at
 9     that point.
10  24                   I remind those on the call that
11     except when you are making your presentation, keep the
12     line on mute so that we don't get too much background
13     noise.
14  25                   I will now call upon the first
15     presenter in Yellowknife, the Hon. Charles Dent.
17  26                   HON. MR. DENT:  Good afternoon.
18  27                   THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good afternoon.
19  28                   HON. MR. DENT:  I appreciate the
20     opportunity to appear today to comment on the future of
21     the CBC.  The CBC is an important element of the
22     North's communication system, providing programming in
23     English and aboriginal language to the people of the
24     Northwest Territories.
25  29                   For many years, CBC radio has been


 1     the source of news, information, ideas and, on a number
 2     of occasions, an emergency broadcaster during times of
 3     great need.
 4  30                   CBC North also fulfils an important
 5     role in the north as an aboriginal language
 6     broadcaster.  They jumped into the field early and
 7     deserve a great deal of credit for the work they have
 8     done as aboriginal language broadcasters, both in radio
 9     and in television.
10  31                   In many communities, the CBC offered
11     northerners their first opportunity to hear information
12     about their region and the world in their own language. 
13     In many of our communities, especially the smaller
14     ones, a significant number of people are unilingual,
15     speaking only their aboriginal language.
16  32                   The programming of CBC Northern
17     Service is a valuable regional service, particularly
18     for people living in our isolated communities.  Like
19     most government funded agencies, the government has
20     been faced with considerable financial pressure over
21     the past few years.  These pressures have resulted in a
22     diminishing of programming and a neglect of service to
23     many of Canada's isolated areas.
24  33                   Over the past year, the Government of
25     the Northwest Territories has written to the President


 1     of the CBC, the Minister of Canadian Heritage, the
 2     CRTC, and has met with senior management of CBC
 3     Northern Service to raise the issue of inadequate
 4     service by the national public broadcasters.
 5  34                   That issue is the lack of regular CBC
 6     service to almost half the communities in the Northwest
 7     Territories.  Twenty-nine already isolated and
 8     undeserved communities in the Northwest Territories do
 9     not have CBC owned, received and rebroadcast
10     facilities.  This situation has occurred because CBC
11     does not service communities with a population of less
12     than 500 people.
13  35                   I am pleased to say I received a
14     letter from Mr. Perrin Beatty earlier this week.  He
15     advised us that, upon review of the current population
16     of our communities, CBC is prepared to assume
17     responsibility for upgrading the transmitter facilities
18     and their ongoing operation and maintenance in ten
19     additional communities.
20  36                   We do appreciate this commitment by
21     the corporation, given the financial constraints under
22     which they are operating.  Nonetheless, I suggest there
23     is still a need to examine policies within CBC
24     regarding distribution.
25  37                   As things stand, the same communities


 1     that are least likely to be served by commercial
 2     alternatives to CBC are also deemed least deserving of
 3     receiving the national public broadcasting service. 
 4     Commercial broadcasters, in order to survive, obviously
 5     must direct their program delivery to areas of
 6     concentrated population.  For the CBC also to
 7     concentrate all of its distribution efforts in these
 8     usually well-served markets at the expense of the
 9     residents of small, virtually unserved communities,
10     leaves a significant portion of the Canadian public out
11     of reach of the national broadcaster.
12  38                   I would suggest that rather than
13     simply competing for the larger urban markets, CBC's
14     role should require provision of service to people in
15     very small communities across Canada, who will likely
16     never receive a signal from commercial broadcasters who
17     must derive all of their operating budgets directly
18     from the marketplace.
19  39                   In the late 1970s until early 1996,
20     the Government of the Northwest Territories was able to
21     alleviate the significant shortfall in CBC's service in
22     the Northwest Territories by installing and maintaining
23     moderately priced satellite received and rebroadcast
24     facilities in the previously noted 29 unserved
25     communities.


 1  40                   Severe cuts in our federal transfers
 2     have necessitated a re-evaluation of all Government of
 3     the Northwest Territories' programs.  We have had to
 4     conclude that subsidizing operations of the
 5     federally-funded national broadcaster was no longer
 6     possible or reasonable.
 7  41                   The received rebroadcast equipment we
 8     installed in the communities is still in place, but
 9     without regular preventative maintenance the incidence
10     of breakdowns is increasing.
11  42                   As an alternative to simply
12     abandoning an effective, inexpensive and established
13     means of ensuring equitable access to CBC programming
14     in all communities, our government believes that CBC,
15     as the national public broadcaster, should provide CBC
16     North with the means and the responsibility to maintain
17     service for all residents of the Northwest Territories.
18  43                   We ask that the CBC take whatever
19     action is necessary to ensure that people in the small
20     remote communities which are dispersed across the NWT
21     continue to receive the CBC service they rely on so
22     heavily.
23  44                   Mr. Beatty tells me that the CBC
24     recognizes the need to provide the citizens of the
25     Northwest Territories with a strong public broadcasting


 1     service at appropriate service levels.  I suggest an
 2     appropriate level of service would include all
 3     communities with the regular power supply needed to
 4     operate receivers and transmitters.
 5  45                   As things stand, current signal
 6     distribution policies and budget allocations within CBC
 7     do not allow CBC North to adequately fulfil its role as
 8     either a national or regional public broadcaster.
 9  46                   CBC and CBC North are important
10     services.  For many people in small isolated
11     communities these services provide the only means for
12     same day information and access to news about the
13     North, Canada and the world.  Without regular access to
14     such services, Canadians living in isolation are
15     severely disadvantaged.
16  47                   In considering the licence extension,
17     I would urge the members of the CRTC to consider the
18     importance of CBC radio as a national service and
19     direct the corporation to adequately service the
20     smallest communities in isolated areas of Canada.
21  48                   Thank you.
22  49                   THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
23     Mr. Dent.  I actually have one question of
24     clarification -- although it is a bit complex.
25  50                   There are a number of communities


 1     which do not have service.  What is the reason for
 2     that?
 3  51                   HON. MR. DENT:  There are a number of
 4     communities in the Northwest Territories that are not
 5     served by CBC through their own equipment, in terms of
 6     receiving satellite signal then rebroadcasting on air,
 7     because the population in those communities is less
 8     than 500.
 9  52                   The CBC's mandate right now is to
10     service communities with a population greater than 500.
11  53                   In 29 communities that the CBC
12     initially did not provide service, the Government of
13     Northwest Territories installed satellite receiver
14     equipment and rebroadcast equipment, which we have
15     turned over to the communities.  The CBC signal can be
16     heard on that from those broadcasters.
17  54                   We don't have the money to maintain
18     those facilities any more.  The CBC has agreed to take
19     on an additional ten, but that still leaves 19
20     communities throughout Nunavut and the Northwest
21     Territories where it is up to the communities now to
22     look after the maintenance of the equipment.
23  55                   THE CHAIRPERSON:  I see; thank you
24     very much.
25  56                   And thank you very much for joining


 1     us today.  I appreciate your taking the time.
 2  57                   HON. MR. DENT:  My pleasure.
 3  58                   THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
 4                                                        1330
 5  59                   MS PINSKY:  I will now turn to
 6     Inuvik.  Mr. Dave Jones is the first presenter there.
 8  60                   MR. JONES:  Hi.  How are you?
 9  61                   THE CHAIRPERSON:  Very well.
10  62                   MR. JONES:  Unfortunately, you were
11     breaking up quite a bit during your introduction, but I
12     will assume that my presentation will be fine as I give
13     it.
14  63                   I am in my mid-thirties.  I am
15     university-educated.  For the past five years I have
16     lived in Inuvik.  Inuvik is a mostly aboriginal
17     community, with a large non-aboriginal professional
18     workforce.
19  64                   I have always, as with most
20     Canadians, had CBC in my life -- CBC radio or TV --
21     although I must confess that I have never owned a TV
22     personally.  It goes without saying that I am a devout
23     CBC supporter.
24  65                   As a result of living in the north
25     over the past five years and never having owned a TV, I


 1     am a little out of touch with the current state of
 2     affairs with CBC in the south or how it has changed.  I
 3     make the distinction between the south and the north,
 4     because it seems that all the decisions on the shape of
 5     CBC are made in the south.
 6  66                   I know that the south is in a
 7     constant state of consumer bombardment; that there are
 8     this seemingly infinite number of choices.  This
 9     includes, of course, choices for radio and television
10     stations.  This has obviously put stress on the CBC and
11     on the affected politicians in their search for ways to
12     react to the consumer.
13  67                   That is the problem.  CBC listeners
14     are not consumers; they are Canadians -- Canadians who
15     want to hear from other Canadians about Canada and
16     about the rest of the world.  They want to hear stories
17     from the Canadian perspective.  They want to watch
18     programs that reflect the Canadian way of seeing
19     things.  They are Canadians that want to be part of a
20     country that is alive with people, not consumers.
21  68                   I am getting tired of watching and
22     listening to the degradation of the CBC over the past
23     couple of years.  The policy people in charge of how
24     the CBC is run are wearing me out.  If the long-term
25     plan is to dismantle the CBC, which is what it seems


 1     like sometimes, then I wish they would just do it and
 2     get it over with.  It hurts more to take the bandage
 3     off slowly rather than just rip it off.
 4  69                   However, if there are really efforts
 5     in the works to make CBC a better service for
 6     Canadians -- and I truly hope that this is the case --
 7     I would like to offer my suggestions.
 8  70                   For example, I would offer some
 9     specifics, such as keeping advertising out of radio and
10     reducing the advertising on television.  Put
11     Canadian-made films on television, unedited and
12     uncensored.  I think I might even buy a TV set if for
13     one night a week I can watch a really good movie
14     without the heart cut out of it.
15  71                   And give professional sports to the
16     other networks.  What I would like to watch, when I
17     watch TV, is amateur sporting events.
18  72                   I could go on and on about the
19     specific add-ons and subtractions from the current
20     programming, but that is not my point for being here. 
21     What I would like to see from CBC in the future is a
22     real commitment to two things:
23  73                   First, keep doing all the good things
24     that CBC is doing, only double the volume.  We all know
25     what these things are, because we talk about them all


 1     the time.  We all have our favourite programs.
 2  74                   Second, don't sacrifice on the
 3     quality of programming or on the presentation.  Look
 4     for and keep the best journalists, technicians, hosts,
 5     et cetera.  I use, for example, here in the north that
 6     the quality of regional and local radio programming and
 7     staff has deteriorated for the most part over the last
 8     couple of years.  I hope that those in charge will
 9     recognize this and begin to make some changes for the
10     better.
11  75                   Overall, I think it is time for some
12     bold changes at the CBC.  The CBC does not have to
13     compete against other networks if they are the ones
14     setting the trend.  I feel it is the role of the CBC,
15     and should only be the role of the CBC, to satisfy the
16     hunger of Canadians to keep in touch with each other. 
17     This should only be done with pride, dignity and
18     intelligence.
19  76                   Thanks.
20  77                   THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
21     Mr. Jones.
22                                                        1335
23  78                   MS PINSKY:  The next presenter from
24     Inuvik is Ms Audrea Wulf.


 1  79                   MS WULF:  Hello.
 2  80                   THE CHAIRPERSON:  Hello, Ms Wulf.
 3  81                   MS WULF:  First of all, thank you for
 4     allowing me to state my piece here.  I am a faithful
 5     CBC listener.  I have always been and probably always
 6     will be.  As a little girl growing up in Tuktoyaktuk,
 7     my family and I would often sit around the box and
 8     listen to the hockey games and the speeches, et cetera.
 9  82                   I was born in Stanton, a trading post
10     that doesn't exist any more.  I have lived in the
11     Western Arctic for many years and have also lived and
12     travelled across Canada.  What I am trying to say is
13     that I have been exposed to the outside, as we call it
14     here.
15  83                   CBC means something to me because I
16     know CBC means Canadian.  It represents the different
17     flavours and cultures that make up this country.
18  84                   I am here today because I feel this
19     really isn't happening any more in the Mackenzie Delta. 
20     I feel like the CBC is fading out, and just about any
21     old radio will do these days.  Maybe it is because we
22     are on the outskirts of the CBC North headquarters. 
23     Whatever the reason, it probably has to do with money.
24  85                   The Beaufort Delta is not being
25     represented on CBC North TV or the radio.  Yes, I am


 1     aware you have an office here in Inuvik, but the
 2     headquarters in Yellowknife is not listening.  If it
 3     was, it would realize that some people's stories are
 4     not being told.  The Inuvialuit and Gwich'in stories
 5     are not being told.
 6  86                   On the TV you have a host who very
 7     rudely talks in his personal language for about two or
 8     three minutes at the end of the show.  How do others
 9     feel when there is no translation or thought about
10     leaving others out?
11  87                   On CBC North Beat it is strictly
12     Indian.  During the Christmas season a huge teepee was
13     set up with an Indian type Virgin Mary and child.  This
14     silent picture was flashed often.  The very start of
15     North Beat show is filled with Indian pictures and
16     customs.  The CBC radio announcers cannot even
17     pronounce Inuvaluit names.
18  88                   During the Nunavut election,
19     announcers from CBC Iqaluit would transfer back to the
20     host of CBC North only to be greeted with a Dene "thank
21     you", very loudly and clearly, in case someone thought
22     the Dene were being left out.
23  89                   These may seem like small
24     insignificant and petty stories.  I am worried about
25     the North and I feel the CBC is helping an atmosphere


 1     of disharmony and loss of respect for one another. 
 2     This problem is a very subtle one that I am speaking
 3     about, but I feel it is a very powerful one.  After
 4     all, that's what we remember: the impressions.  After
 5     the TV picture is gone, the impressions are left with
 6     us in our minds.
 7  90                   Please understand me.  I am 47 years
 8     old, and I am no longer interested in games or immature
 9     useless actions.  I am interested in seeing people, no
10     matter who they are, to be proud and happy of who they
11     are and what they are.
12  91                   To me, the Inuvialuit have a history
13     of being put down.  The present media isn't helping. 
14     Please make some considerations into hiring an
15     Inuvialuit host for sharing a spot on CBC North Beat. 
16     Our language is trying to make a comeback.  This would
17     help.
18  92                   Some stories from the Western Arctic,
19     the Mackenzie Delta would be a start.  If you have
20     announcers here in Inuvik and still the stories of the
21     Delta are not being told, that's because the boss in
22     Yellowknife isn't listening to hear if there are other
23     stories from all over the North being represented
24     through them.
25  93                   There seems to be a complacency.


 1  94                   Thank you very much.
 2     --- Foreign language / Langue étrangère
 3  95                   THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 4     much, Ms Wulf.
 5                                                        1341
 6  96                   MS PINSKY:  We will hear now from
 7     Whitehorse.  The first presenter in Whitehorse is Ms
 8     Ruth McCullough.
10  97                   MS McCULLOUGH:  Can you hear me?
11  98                   THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes, we can.
12  99                   MS McCULLOUGH:  First of all, thank
13     you very much for allowing me to have some comments on
14     my only window to the outside world.  Where I live, I
15     am in a dead spot; therefore, I cannot receive CBC
16     television or any other kind of television.  So the
17     radio is my lifeline.
18  100                  I am going to organize my comments in
19     order of the four questions that were provided to me on
20     a press release.  I will begin with the first one:
21                            "In your view, how well does the
22                            CBC fulfil its role as the
23                            national public broadcaster?"
24  101                  To fulfil a role as the national
25     public broadcaster, the CBC must provide equal service


 1     to all areas of the country.  This means that all
 2     services presently available to one area of the country
 3     must be available to all others, such as FM services. 
 4     Presently, there is no CBC FM service in the Yukon.  If
 5     the CBC wishes to be truly considered national, these
 6     services must be provided nationally.
 7  102                  The North and many other parts of
 8     Canada have people who are enthusiastic CBC listeners. 
 9     In the new millennium, rather than spending exorbitant
10     amounts of money on trying to attract new listeners or
11     viewers or spreading the limited dollars available to
12     the CBC into new technical areas or additional radio or
13     TV stations, the CBC should do its best to maintain the
14     interest and loyalty of those people who are already
15     sold on the product being provided.
16  103                  In my opinion, CBC is presently
17     putting all of its resources into the region of
18     greatest population, considering additional services in
19     those areas in hopes that new subscribers can be
20     attracted.  The CBC should recognize that they are
21     completely incapable of competing against the large
22     private corporations with mega dollars at their
23     disposal through the sale of advertising.  Therefore,
24     they should be spending their limited resources on
25     ensuring that the product they presently produce is the


 1     very best possible.
 2  104                  I would like to support Mr. Dent and
 3     the NWT by saying that it is more important for the CBC
 4     to service the North, where communication is so much
 5     more difficult and limited, than in the South where
 6     there is a tremendous variety of media outlets.
 7  105                  The second question is:
 8                            "How well does the CBC serve the
 9                            public on a regional as well as
10                            a national level?"
11  106                  CBC should recognize that the North
12     is not one region.  It has already been recognized that
13     the Northwest Territories is far too large to work as
14     one jurisdiction and has split it into the NWT and
15     Nunavut.  You have no idea how frustrating it is when
16     residing in Whitehorse or other Yukon communities to
17     have to listen to community activities that are
18     happening in Tuk or Baffin Island, much less waiting
19     forever to find out what we can expect in the weather
20     department.
21  107                  Think about the reaction that would
22     be received if all of the regional programming for
23     B.C., Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba was produced
24     out of Saskatoon.
25  108                  Regional programming changes for the


 1     North are never discussed with the people who live
 2     there.  We used to get a wonderful classical music
 3     program on Sunday mornings, from 6:00 to 9:00 a.m.  Now
 4     we get programming out of Yellowknife.  On weekends our
 5     weather reports are from Yellowknife, and they happen
 6     to be the same report from morning until night.
 7  109                  The reception can be poor to
 8     non-existent on weekends.  But because we have no one
 9     in our Whitehorse station, these problems are never
10     addressed.  When I phoned the number to report a
11     problem about the reception, it was a Yellowknife phone
12     number.  I got no response.
13  110                  On February 29th we in Whitehorse
14     endured three hours of dead air.  Perhaps because the
15     Yellowknife feed had not been turned on.  The national
16     feed did provide the news on the hour.  But from 6:00
17     a.m. to 9:00 a.m., there was no radio.
18  111                  As well, the feed from Yellowknife
19     for two weeks in a row was so bad it sounded as if the
20     channel had not been properly tuned in.
21     --- Background noise / Bruit de fond
22  112                  If there was staffing provided in our
23     Whitehorse station, this would not happen.  And yes,
24     both of these problems occurred during the technicians'
25     strike.  However, we don't have those kinds of problems


 1     Monday through Friday when the programming was handled
 2     in Whitehorse, and the reception problem was equally
 3     cleared up even though the technicians are not there to
 4     work on it.
 5  113                  Before Christmas, when the
 6     technicians were not on strike, on two occasions there
 7     was a 20-minute and a 45-minute occurrence of dead air. 
 8     Once again, if regional programming for the Yukon was
 9     provided through our Whitehorse radio station on the
10     weekends as well as during the week, these problems can
11     be addressed quickly.
12  114                  No. 3:
13                            "Should programming provided by
14                            CBC radio and television be
15                            different than that provided by
16                            other broadcasters?  If so, what
17                            should those differences be?"
18  115                  The programming provided by CBC radio
19     and TV must be different from other broadcasters, for
20     two reason:
21  116                  One, it is an arm's length from
22     government body funded with public dollars and without
23     commercials.  Therefore, its focus must be emphasizing
24     the state of the nation.
25  117                  Two, CBC is the only national radio


 1     station and, as such, it is our link to other regions
 2     of our country.  It is the only avenue that we as
 3     Canadians have to hear what is happening throughout our
 4     country.  It is our only mechanism to find out about
 5     the traditions throughout our country.
 6  118                  C'est la Vie, Richardson's Round-up,
 7     Definitely Not The Opera and Basic Black all provide
 8     these vignettes from across the country.  We need to
 9     maintain them.
10  119                  And no. 4:
11                            "Is there a special role that
12                            the CBC should play in the
13                            presentation of Canadian
14                            programming?  If so, what should
15                            this role be?
16  120                  The CBC should be taking a lead role
17     in the promotion of Canada's creative community.  This
18     means literary, musical, as well as production of
19     Canadian programming.  There are few people in the
20     south of Canada who exclusively listen to or watch CBC,
21     as is more the case in the North.  Regardless, CBC
22     should be the first avenue for all Canadians to
23     identify the who's who in Canadian culture.
24  121                  I personally do not feel that the
25     promotion of Canadian talent will drive listeners and


 1     viewers away from CBC.  I think it is time that we
 2     realized and recognized that our talent base is every
 3     bit as good as that of the USA's, and we should begin a
 4     vigorous programming of promoting our talent and
 5     ensuring support for them in Canada.
 6  122                  Thank you very much.
 7  123                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 8     much.
 9  124                  I just want to ensure that that was
10     Ruth McCullough?
11  125                  MS McCULLOUGH:  Yes, it was.
12  126                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
13     much, Ms McCullough.
14  127                  Le prochain intervenant est M. Henri
15     Blanchette.
17  128                  MR. BLANCHETTE: I will give you some
18     time to get your little translation gadget, because I
19     am going to do my presentation in French.
20  129                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  We are ready for
21     that.
22  130                  M. BLANCHETTE:  Je suis très heureux
23     de représenter l'Association franco-yukonnaise à cette
24     audience publique du CRTC.  En tant que francophones 
25     hors Québec, nous considérons Radio-Canada comme une


 1     entité très importante au maintien et au développement
 2     de la francophonie hors Québec.
 3  131                  A ce sujet, nous recevons
 4     présentement les ondes de Radio-Canada Vancouver, de la
 5     radio de Radio-Canada à Vancouver, et nous aurons, à
 6     partir du 1er juin 1999, la télé par ondes hertzienne
 7     aussi.
 8  132                  Cependant, quelques problèmes,
 9     quelques lacunes semblent s'émisser dans la
10     programmation de Radio-Canada.  On a énormément de
11     misère à avoir une couverture médiatique adéquate de ce
12     qui se passe au Yukon en français et en anglais et on a
13     des problèmes à recevoir cette couverture-là en
14     français évidemment.
15  133                  Alors, en parlant avec le conseil
16     d'administration de l'Association franco-yukonnaise, on
17     en est venus à quelques propositions et nous voudrions
18     vous en parler et c'est mon collègue Marco Folia(ph)
19     qui remplace M. Yanéri qui va vous en parler à
20     l'instant.
21  134                  M. MARCO FOLIA:  Alors, premièrement
22     je voudrais dire bonjour à tout le monde et je voudrais
23     aussi remercier le CRTC de nous donner l'occasion de
24     faire entendre notre voix sur l'avenir de Radio-Canada.
25  135                  Premièrement, mon nom est Marco


 1     Folia, je suis directeur du secteur communications au
 2     sein du conseil d'administration de l'Association
 3     franco-yukonnaise qui est porte-parole de tous les
 4     francophones du Yukon.
 5  136                  Comme le disait M. Blanchette avant
 6     moi, je vais vous parler un petit peu de solutions, de
 7     certains des problèmes que nous éprouvons ici au niveau
 8     de la couverture médiatique et peut-être vous inviter
 9     aussi à proposer ou à suggérer des façons novatrices de
10     régler ces problèmes-là.
11     --- Difficultés techniques / Technical difficulties
12  137                  J'aimerais, toutefois, souligner qu'à
13     mon avis -- ou de l'avis de l'Association
14     franco-yukonnaise plutôt -- dont je suis le
15     porte-parole aujourd'hui, un des rôles que la Société
16     Radio-Canada devrait prendre en charge serait de
17     promouvoir l'unité afin qu'on ait un sentiment
18     d'appartenance qui serve à unir le pays et non à
19     diviser les communautés linguistiques.
20  138                  J'ai la chance de parler les deux
21     langues officielles et de les comprendre.  Lorsqu'on
22     regarde la couverture médiatique francophone et on la
23     compare à la couverture médiatique anglophone il semble
24     y avoir une espèce de dualité entre les deux
25     couvertures, donc parmi les rôles que la Société --


 1     --- Difficultés techniques / Technical difficulties
 2  139                  Si vous avez des questions, soyez les
 3     bienvenus, mais moi j'ai terminé.  Vous allez recevoir
 4     notre mémoire écrit pour mai.
 5  140                  LA PRÉSIDENTE:  Merci beaucoup.  Nous
 6     n'avons pas de questions.
 7  141                  MS PINSKY:  The next presenter is
 8     Brian Lendrum.
10  142                  MR. LENDRUM:  Madam Commissioner, I
11     am speaking to you today after a rather heavy cold and
12     not a very good phone line, so I hope I will be able to
13     get my points across.
14  143                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  You sound clear.
15  144                  MR. LENDRUM:  I have some very simple
16     things to say about CBC Radio One, some very personal
17     things to say.  I have nothing to say about CBC Radio
18     Two, because for most of my adult life I have lived in
19     areas where the FM signal simply doesn't reach.  I have
20     nothing to say about CBC television for the same
21     reason, and also because it is essentially a visual
22     medium and I am blind.
23  145                  For 25 years or so I have listened to
24     CBC Radio One virtually every day, and I don't know why
25     but never before today have I made the effort to let


 1     anyone know just what an important part of my life it
 2     is.  I can echo the view expressed several times
 3     already today about the importance of CBC to people who
 4     live in areas where it is truly the only choice.
 5  146                  I suspect that that may come as a
 6     surprise to people in Toronto or Vancouver, or maybe
 7     even Edmonton, to know that there are many places in
 8     Canada where there simply is no choice.  You listen to
 9     CBC AM or you don't turn your radio on.  Clearly, we
10     have heard today where there are also vast areas where
11     you can't even receive CBC AM. But I have never lived
12     there, so I will let those people speak for themselves.
13  147                  For those of us who can receive CBC
14     AM and nothing else, it is essential that that service
15     remain and be reinforced.  For those of who don't read,
16     whether it is because of dyslexia or whether it is
17     because we never learned, or whether it is because our
18     vision is not good enough, CBC is a truly vital source
19     of information.
20  148                  I depend on CBC for the widest
21     possible variety of information:  from local news to
22     general education, science, biography, literature,
23     finance, you name it.  My needs are much broader than
24     the average listener, because I am looking to CBC to
25     fill the information gaps that result from my not being


 1     able to read.
 2  149                  That is perhaps an unfair
 3     expectation.  But it is fair, I think, to ask CBC to
 4     bear in mind the non-reader when they are designing
 5     their program schedule.
 6  150                  Please notice that my relationship
 7     with CBC is totally apolitical.  I feel that upper
 8     echelons of CBC management, and certainly the
 9     government, view CBC as an instrument for advancing one
10     political agenda or another.  To me, questions of
11     politics are simply not important enough to warrant
12     such a large instrument.
13  151                  What I need from CBC is information
14     on the broadest possible range of topics.  And I
15     flatter myself that I have enough gumption to form my
16     own views on questions of politics.
17  152                  I should comment a little on the
18     impact of recent cutbacks at CBC.
19  153                  In my view, the national morning
20     program is lighter, less thoughtful than it used to be. 
21     The afternoon program, The Round-up, is a very neat and
22     entertaining way of packaging repeat broadcasts.  If
23     there wasn't so much other repeat broadcasting in the
24     course of a day, that would be great.  I used to think,
25     in fact, that it was a shame that some excellent


 1     programs were aired only once and then relegated to the
 2     archives.  But now I would say that repeat broadcasting
 3     has gone too far, to the extent that I find myself
 4     turning the radio off.
 5  154                  This is especially true on the local
 6     morning program where they sometimes even repeat an
 7     interview in the course of the same three-hour program.
 8  155                  As for the evening programs, As It
 9     Happens and Ideas remain excellent productions. 
10     Whoever thought of replacing the overnight programming,
11     that used to be so dismal, with programs from Europe,
12     Africa and Australia, that was a really good move.  I
13     hope they continue to do that.
14  156                  The weekend programming I view as
15     essentially entertainment, and I have little to say
16     about that, except Vinyl Cafe, which is my personal
17     favourite -- a cut above everything else, I believe.
18  157                  One further point.  I mentioned that
19     at home CBC is my only choice.  When I travel, I still
20     listen to CBC because I am not prepared to subject
21     myself to the barrage of advertising on other stations. 
22     If anyone is thinking of introducing commercials to CBC
23     radio, I can say quite categorically that the day that
24     that begins is the day I turn my radio off.
25  158                  And that is in spite of all I said


 1     earlier about how important, how essential CBC is to
 2     me.
 3  159                  As a conclusion, when the Commission
 4     is considering the relicensing of CBC, please remember
 5     those of us for whom CBC AM -- and I stress the AM
 6     part -- is the only choice.  Remember those of us who
 7     don't read and for whom radio is an essential source of
 8     information.
 9  160                  If my taxes have to go up in order to
10     reverse the decrease in quality that we have
11     experienced over the past three or four years, then so
12     be it.  But for goodness sake, don't allow advertising
13     on CBC Radio One.
14  161                  Thank you.
15  162                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
16     Lendrum.  I appreciate you sharing your views with us,
17     and I hope you are feeling better soon.
18  163                  MR. LENDRUM:  Thank you.
19  164                  MS PINSKY:  The next presenter in
20     Whitehorse is Mr. Peter Copyright.
22  165                  MR. COPYRIGHT:  Good afternoon.  My
23     name is Peter Copyright.  I have lived in Whitehorse
24     for almost the last three years.  I am an artist,
25     manager, and booking agent, and I am an active


 1     supporter and faithful listener of the CBC and Société
 2     Radio-Canada.
 3  166                  For me, the Canadian Broadcasting
 4     Corporation and Société Radio-Canada speaks to my heart
 5     and to my soul.  The post information age in which we
 6     live offers consumers of television, radio and culture
 7     a vast and varied choice of creative sources. 
 8     Nowadays, people have almost too many choices and not
 9     enough substance.
10  167                  We are bombarded from all sides by
11     the 500-plus channel satellite TV, by talk-free
12     specialty digital cable radio stations, movies, video
13     games, the Internet, in addition to books, magazines,
14     visual arts, as well as the performing and recording
15     arts.
16  168                  New technologies are changing the way
17     we consume culture.  Music can now be downloaded and
18     burned on to a CD for free through the Internet,
19     regardless of the artist's publishing rights.
20  169                  How can the CBC compete in this new
21     and ever evolving environment?  For starters, it is
22     obvious that the CBC/SRC must change.
23  170                  I would like to thank the organizers
24     of this teleconference for providing this opportunity
25     to Canadians to voice their thoughts on the future of


 1     the CBC/SRC before it is arbitrarily done away with by
 2     the federal government.
 3  171                  I believe the CBC/SRC could become a
 4     shining beacon of Canadian culture amid the vast
 5     wasteland of mostly commercial and mostly American
 6     entertainment.  By broadcasting Canada's stories and
 7     culture, the CBC/SRC may fulfil its mandate of
 8     providing a national conscience and identity.
 9  172                  The CBC/SRC should showcase Canadian
10     culture in its many forms.  It is the perfect vehicle
11     for Canadian artists to reach out to all of Canada with
12     their stories, their movies, television shows, music,
13     dance, theatre, visual arts and literature.  Then the
14     CBC/SRC may fulfil its mandate of actively contributing
15     to cultural expression and to the exchange of the
16     diverse forms it can take.
17  173                  In this age of specialty TV channels,
18     if I want to see a Formula One car race, for example, I
19     can tune into a sports channel.  But if I want to see a
20     Canadian movie, a Celtic electric concert or Juste pour
21     Rires, where else can I tune into but the CBC/SRC?
22  174                  Furthermore, the CBC/SRC is the only
23     medium in Canada where ordinary Canadians can voice
24     their opinions on a national level.  Cross Country
25     Check-Up on Radio One is a good example of a show which


 1     binds the mosaic of distinct cultures that make up the
 2     vast expanse of a country called Canada.
 3  175                  How else and where else can
 4     Newfoundlanders, Yukoners, Acadians, First Nations
 5     peoples, British Columbians, Quebeckers and other
 6     Canadians from all walks of life talk to each other
 7     about Canadian issues if not on the CBC/SRC?
 8  176                  This national public broadcaster is
 9     the glue which may just hold this country together. 
10     The CBC/SRC will not play this vital role if it is sold
11     off to the private sector or if the drastic cutbacks
12     continue or if it becomes a mouthpiece for the state.
13  177                  The Canadian government should not
14     only halt the cutbacks to CBC/SRC, it should increase
15     funding to our national public broadcaster in order to
16     permit the production and broadcasting of Canadian
17     culture to all Canadians: north, south, east and west.
18  178                  Otherwise, we as a country shall go
19     the way of the only other G-7 country which does not
20     have a national public broadcaster, that being the
21     United States of America.
22  179                  Living here in Whitehorse, Yukon, I
23     deplore the fact that if I want to tune into Radio Two
24     or SRC television, I have to pay for basic cable.  I
25     already pay for Radio Two and SRC television, which I


 1     consider essential services, with my taxes.
 2  180                  Also, I strongly recommend that SRC
 3     television and CBC Radio Two -- that is to say, CBC
 4     FM -- be made available on the Yukon airwaves, or at
 5     least on the Whitehorse airwaves, so that all I need to
 6     do to tune these stations in is have an antenna.
 7  181                  I am told that a precedent for this
 8     has already been established in Yellowknife, another
 9     small northern community where Radio Two is now
10     available thanks to the dedication of ordinary and
11     tireless people.
12  182                  The weak signal strength of
13     Radio-Canada FM should be boosted, as it is often
14     difficult to tune into from downtown Whitehorse.
15  183                  Another recommendation that I would
16     like to make is that the CBC/SRC television and radio
17     be broadcast internationally.  This would increase the
18     visibility of Canadian artists and original Canadian
19     productions.  It would also boost international tourism
20     to one of the greatest countries in the world -- that
21     is to say, Canada -- by showcasing what we have to
22     offer on the cultural level.
23  184                  If the CBC/SRC is sold off to the
24     highest bidder or if it becomes just a mouthpiece for
25     the federal government propaganda, or if it is


 1     continuously whittled away by further funding cuts, we
 2     as a country will take one step closer to losing our
 3     cultural sovereignty to the American entertainment
 4     giant to the south.
 5  185                  The CBC is the voice of Canada's
 6     stories.  Merci; thank you.
 7  186                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
 8     Copyright.
 9                                                        1410
10  187                  MS PINSKY:  The next presenter in
11     Whitehorse is Mr. Larry Bagnell.
13  188                  MR. BAGNELL:  Just before I start, we
14     have a technical matter here.
15  189                  There are two people who said that
16     they registered and they are not on the list that we
17     were handed here in Whitehorse.  I don't know if it is
18     different than the list that you might have.
19  190                  The people's names are Jenny
20     Nesbitt-Dufor and Gail Noble.
21  191                  Do you have them on your list?  They
22     said they registered.
23  192                  MS PINSKY:  No, we don't.  But that
24     is fine.  Perhaps they can wait until the end of the
25     presenters from Whitehorse and then they can make their


 1     presentations following those who have registered.
 2  193                  MR. BAGNELL:  Thank you.
 3  194                  I am on the next two times; the first
 4     one is a personal time slot, and the second one is for
 5     the Association of Yukon Communities.  We thought we
 6     would have someone else for that, but I will break in
 7     between so that you know where the break is.
 8  195                  I am going to start as a personal
 9     citizen.  I was asked to appear, so I guess I will give
10     some comments here.  I am going to mention a few
11     organizations in this presentation, but these are only
12     the ones that I am involved with.  It is not their
13     opinions; it is just my opinions on the help that the
14     CBC has given to those organizations.
15  196                  I will take a little different
16     approach to my presentation, as opposed to evaluating
17     each program and saying that it is good or bad, just to
18     give some criteria that I would hope and think that the
19     CRTC might use in evaluating programs.
20  197                  I think, in general, any time you do
21     a zero-based budgeting exercise like this, the main
22     question is:  Why is government needed to fund this
23     service?  Wherever the service is needed, should
24     government do it like they do now or should they pay
25     the private sector to do it?


 1  198                  As you evaluate each part and each
 2     program, just determine why the government is involved
 3     in this particular type of programming.
 4  199                  CBC, as any other government service,
 5     should be provided, if it is not or cannot be provided
 6     otherwise.  And each CBC program should be analyzed
 7     under this criteria.
 8  200                  As you analyze each one, I think it
 9     has to be the ones that are essential for Canadians are
10     the ones that are given the priority and the funding to
11     make sure they exist.  I am not sure in these tight
12     fiscal times if we can afford to have the things
13     government do, the nice to have things, or luxury or
14     pure untargeted and unfunded entertainment, or items
15     that are useful but optional.  There are a lot of
16     essential things we need, and I think that is where the
17     priority has to be.
18  201                  I will give some examples of some of
19     the essential things that I think have been very useful
20     in some of the areas that I have been involved in.
21  202                  One is the president of (inaudible)
22     Indian Friendship Centre.  There are 14 different First
23     Nation cultures in the Yukon, and the private sector
24     could not necessarily get the revenue to fund a good
25     description and ongoing display of those.  I think that


 1     has been a great help in the Yukon.
 2  203                  I am also the president of the United
 3     Way, and the CBC Yukon has been exceptionally helpful
 4     in that area.  Once again, it is a public service.  It
 5     is a social service that the private sector may not be
 6     able to give as much time to.  The CBC has given all
 7     sorts of support.  And not only that, the employees
 8     themselves had a major celebration event and they
 9     donated all the revenues to the United Way.
10  204                  Also, as a previous person mentioned
11     about non-reading people, I am on the Yukon Learn Board
12     and the CBC does great work in promoting literacy,
13     which, once again, might not be able to be funded for a
14     private sector broadcaster to spend their time on that.
15  205                  I am also on the Anti Poverty
16     Coalition, and the CBC very recently especially has
17     taken a great interest in poverty issues.  There have
18     been a number of interviews with myself and other
19     people to try and get the message across to the public
20     what type of issues those are.
21  206                  Once again, how could you fund such
22     in the private sector?  It might be quite difficult.
23  207                  I am also on the Yukon Science
24     Institute, which is very important for Canada in a
25     competitive world and could be hard to fund locally. 


 1     The women do math exercises.  The CBC again has been
 2     great in promoting science and these types of things.
 3  208                  Also with the arts centre, the guild
 4     hall and the railway, the CBC again is a great promoter
 5     for a non-profit type.  These are things that, in the
 6     large scale of things, could not be funded to the
 7     extent they are locally.  And of course the French
 8     culture which you heard a lot about lately.
 9  209                  Also, as chair of the Robert Service
10     Society, the biggest selling poet in history, if
11     England takes advantage of Shakespeare, Canada has to
12     take more advantage of that poet.  CBC Yukon has been
13     excellent in that event.  In fact, they had a show on
14     him this morning again.  They have done a great service
15     to Canada in that respect.
16  210                  On specialty programs that could not
17     be elsewhere, I think Ideas in particular is just
18     tremendous for the intellectual development of
19     Canadians.  The Massey Lectures, I am sure, are
20     unparalleled in the world.  In fact, you should be able
21     to make revenue by selling that to education systems in
22     Canada and public broadcasters around the world,
23     because I think it is unparalleled research and
24     presentation of very important ideas.
25  211                  Another essential dimension is


 1     geographic.  There are some areas in Canada where there
 2     is no private radio; there is no other way of getting a
 3     radio message.  In those particular contexts, CBC has
 4     to give people anything that you would normally get on
 5     the radio.
 6  212                  You have heard that a number of times
 7     today, and there are certain parts in the Yukon where
 8     this is the essential, the only communications with the
 9     world, whether it be emergency or information on all
10     the items that CBC deals with.
11  213                  Another thing I think you should
12     evaluate, both with CBC et aussi avec Radio-Canada, is
13     national unity and how successful has it been.  It has
14     been said that scientifically communication promotes
15     unity, so there is obviously a big role for CBC there. 
16     I hope you will look at their success in that respect.
17  214                  In relation to provincial or
18     territorial or federal levels of government, there are
19     some major issues I think that are obviously covered by
20     all sorts of journalists.  If you watch a scrum in the
21     House of Commons, there are journalists all over the
22     place.
23  215                  The main issues might already be
24     covered.  Maybe the role then is where you need
25     detailed research in an area where it would be too much


 1     time and effort for a private broadcaster to go to get
 2     all the facts out and present a really good picture to
 3     people.
 4  216                  I remember two excellent examples in
 5     the Yukon.  One was related to MAI debate here.  There
 6     was all sorts of talk going on about people didn't know
 7     what they were talking about.  CBC Yukon -- I don't
 8     know how they did it, but they found someone from the
 9     international negotiating table that knew the facts and
10     presented them clearly so that people at least knew
11     what the issue was.
12  217                  I was exceptionally impressed that at
13     least the facts would be on the table for people here
14     in the Yukon.
15  218                  Another was an incredible documentary
16     they did on the sinking of the Princess Sophia, which I
17     think is just a great story.  They have done an
18     excellent job.  They have done a number of historical
19     documentaries over the year that you could not get from
20     any other source.
21  219                  Finally, two quick comments.  One is
22     nationally quite often you will hear people come and
23     say:  Why does the media make an issue of this -- and I
24     guess this could be any media -- that sometimes they
25     make issues as opposed to just giving coverage on


 1     issues.
 2  220                  So hopefully people will be aware
 3     that that doesn't occur; that something that maybe the
 4     public don't think is an issue isn't made excessively
 5     to an issue.
 6  221                  The other item which I will mention
 7     in my next presentation is because they are not
 8     responsible to anyone, they can have a balanced view
 9     from all different perspectives to widen our horizons,
10     like Ideas does.  That should, I think, go through all
11     their programming.
12  222                  In this presentation I have just
13     suggested some criteria that you could look at CBC
14     programming as opposed to getting into the specifics.
15  223                  That is the end of my personal
16     presentation.
18  224                  MR. BAGNELL:  My name is Larry
19     Bagnell.  I am the Executive Director of the
20     Association of Yukon Communities, and I am going to be
21     making a short presentation on behalf of that
22     organization.
23  225                  Every province and territory in
24     Canada has an Association of Municipal Governments, and
25     we are the one in the Yukon.  One hundred per cent of


 1     the municipalities in the Yukon are members, and
 2     probably 80 per cent of Yukoners live in municipalities
 3     that are in our association.
 4  226                  I am not, however, going to include
 5     Whitehorse today, the capital city and the largest city
 6     here, because the mayor is here and will be reporting
 7     later.  So that would just be repeating that.
 8  227                  I want to state at the beginning,
 9     too, that I will only be making comments from a few
10     individuals.  In the short time we had, we surveyed our
11     members and we only got a few individual personal
12     comments back.  The association itself does not have an
13     official position.
14  228                  The first comment is not directed
15     simply at the CRTC but is sort of a general one -- and
16     I am talking now for the rural communities in our
17     association.
18  229                  In the majority of times when
19     provincial or territorial or senior levels of
20     government, or the federal government, do consultation
21     like this, they don't make sufficient provision for
22     rural Canadians to get a chance.
23  230                  I don't see many, if any, here today,
24     and the reason is that it wasn't made possible.  This
25     is not just to the CRTC; this happens time and time


 1     again with us, and that is why we are very frustrated.
 2  231                  Who at the CRTC or CBC today would be
 3     paying their own hotel room, would be travelling,
 4     giving up two days' work to be here, would be losing
 5     their salary, would be paying all of their expenses to
 6     be here?  No one would be.  But that is what a rural
 7     person would have had to do to be here today, had they
 8     known about it in time.
 9  232                  Like I say, this happens time and
10     time again with us for all sorts of types of
11     consultations.  So they get frustrated in not having
12     input in that respect.
13  233                  I am going to give the three comments
14     that we got back.  As I said, they are not positions of
15     the association because we didn't discuss it as an
16     association.
17  234                  First of all, our President spoke in
18     glowing terms of the CBC.  He thinks it is an excellent
19     service all across Canada, and provides a very
20     essential service for rural Canadians.  He comes from a
21     small town in the Yukon, of 2,000 people or so.  He
22     thinks the federal government should re-evaluate any
23     cuts they are doing, because the service is so
24     essential and they do a great job for Canada.
25  235                  On two minor points, he did want to


 1     make sure that Dawson City was portrayed accurately on
 2     the weather maps and that David Cross travels more.
 3     --- Laughter / Rires
 4  236                  The second comment is related to the
 5     question you asked about rural service.  This
 6     particular person thought that the Yukon was lumped in
 7     the north a lot with other territories.  People that
 8     are not from the Yukon probably don't know that in a
 9     lot of respects comparing the Yukon and the Northwest
10     Territories would be the same as Saskatchewan and
11     Prince Edward Island.  There are a lot of differences;
12     different cultures; there are no roads; there are
13     limited airwaves.  It is just not the same.
14  237                  If on times on radio and television
15     where there is some overlap, where we get programming
16     from that other area, it really doesn't make any sense
17     for Yukoners.
18  238                  Again on to another personal opinion. 
19     This is from a rural administrator of a rural town, who
20     felt that was as far as TV goes, that person watches TV
21     for entertainment; that that is the prime function of
22     TV and that there is no function of public taxes being
23     used to provide entertainment.
24  239                  The last comment -- actually, this is
25     the fourth one -- was from another rural mayor.  My


 1     president is a rural mayor.  He referred back to a
 2     comment that was made on As It Happens last Sunday.  As
 3     you probably know, Cross Country Check-Up last Sunday
 4     covered questions from the public on CBC.  Several
 5     people referred to the balance perspective being
 6     provided in the programming.
 7  240                  I think that particular person was
 8     talking about a left leaning, but I am just talking
 9     about a balance perspective in general -- and I
10     mentioned it at the end of my last presentation -- of
11     the whole spectrum of programming.
12  241                  Even the CBC host Rex Murphy seemed
13     to agree with the person and had some sympathy with the
14     opinion that if you analyzed each program, there wasn't
15     necessarily the broad spectrum of viewpoints that there
16     might be.
17  242                  I don't think this means just
18     mentioning a different viewpoint or a different
19     orientation once and saying you have covered it.  I
20     think it would be an evaluation of each program to make
21     sure there was a good cross-section of possible
22     viewpoints on a topic.
23  243                  I was actually listening to that part
24     of the program too, and I had the same sense.  But I
25     had not thought of mentioning it until this mayor


 1     actually brought it up to me as part of our review. 
 2     That was the one thing that struck him as well.
 3  244                  The other thing related to that with
 4     another caller that came right after is balance
 5     geographically.  I think there was a caller from B.C.
 6     or the Maritimes that suggested that their area did not
 7     listen to the CBC because the topics weren't relevant.
 8  245                  I don't think that applies to us, but
 9     I think it is a good thing to keep in mind in your
10     evaluation.  If you do an analysis of all the issues
11     that had been covered over the last six months and
12     tally them up over the regions of the country and see
13     how it matches out, that may match with some of the
14     interest that is displayed locally.
15  246                  The last thing I want to mention is
16     related to the rural dialogue that the federal
17     government is undertaking to ensure that all federal
18     programs and services, and in fact being a partnership
19     all those government programs and services are
20     sensitive to rural areas.  Hopefully, the federal
21     cabinet and the CRTC and the CBC, either voluntarily or
22     mandated, will participate intensively in that
23     exercise.
24  247                  The basic point of the exercise is to
25     make sure that rural Canadians' points of views are


 1     heard and that they are serviced as effectively as they
 2     could be, which is a lot easier with today's
 3     technology.
 4  248                  I think that by being part of that,
 5     the CBC and the CRTC being part of that and close to
 6     that, those groups may find ways to better service
 7     rural Canadians from our smaller communities.  I think
 8     everyone would benefit from that.
 9  249                  Thank you.
10  250                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
11     Bagnell.  You are a very busy man, by the sounds of
12     things.
13  251                  MR. BAGNELL:  Thank you.
14  252                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  While I will be
15     reviewing some of the process issues when we finish
16     this afternoon, I just want to point out, with respect
17     to your comments on the difficulty of the more remote
18     communities participating in consultations, that
19     everything that takes place in these consultations
20     forms part of the public record; but so, too, do all
21     written submissions to us, and people can also submit
22     by e-mail until the end of April.  Everything is given
23     the same weight.
24  253                  I just want to point that out to you
25     at this moment.


 1  254                  Thank you very much for your
 2     presentation.
 3  255                  MR. BAGNELL:  Thank you.  For some of
 4     our rural people those may not be the best methods for
 5     them to input, because e-mail doesn't actually go to
 6     all rural Yukoners.  There is a lot of improvement and
 7     a lot of investment in that right now.  They will
 8     shortly, but right now some of them can't even access
 9     that.
10  256                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  And then there is
11     regular mail as well.
12  257                  MS PINSKY:  The next presenter in
13     Whitehorse is Ms Kathy Watson.
15  258                  MS WATSON:  Good afternoon.  I want
16     to thank the CBC for the invitation to present to the
17     CRTC hearings today, and to congratulate you on behalf
18     of someone who suffers from the frustrations of public
19     consultation for including Yukon in your consultation.
20  259                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
21  260                  MS WATSON:  I am going to basically
22     go through the points also that were addressed in the
23     questions that were identified in the press release;
24     and if I tend to ramble a little bit, it is only
25     because I have had added comment as I have been


 1     listening today and from other people who made comment
 2     at the last minute from the city of Whitehorse with
 3     regard to the issues.
 4  261                  So forgive me if it seems a bit
 5     disjointed.
 6  262                  The first question was:
 7                            "In your view, how well does the
 8                            CBC fulfil its role as the
 9                            national public broadcaster?"
10  263                  I am a real CBC radio fan.  I have to
11     confess that my bias will be to the radio, simply
12     because I had the opportunity to write the notes.
13  264                  I would like to say that CBC does
14     bring the national perspective to the remote areas of
15     Canada, and I see that very much as the role of the
16     Canadian Broadcasting Corporation or any public
17     broadcasting entity.  I find the balance between the
18     information and the entertainment values with CBC radio
19     to be perfect for my own perspective.
20  265                  I find that CBC reflects the Canadian
21     attitudes about international issues, which is really
22     refreshing when we look at our television opportunities
23     for international and national news.  We often get a
24     very strong dose of American attitude included in the
25     stories that come from the American channels.  We all


 1     know that we certainly have lots of opportunities to
 2     benefit from American television.
 3  266                  So I find the Canadian Broadcasting
 4     Corporation to be quite refreshing in that regard.
 5  267                  I think that the CBC provides
 6     Canadians with an opportunity to be informed about
 7     local issues on a national level, and that helps to
 8     keep the country connected, if you like; that CBC often
 9     provides the thread that keeps us stitched together.
10  268                  In the Yukon, I think it would be
11     important to recognize that very often a large number
12     of us come from other places, other parts of Canada and
13     the world.  We can count on CBC to keep us connected to
14     our roots, if we are of Canadian origin and yet moved
15     several miles away.  I am certainly one of those people
16     who benefits from that.
17  269                  The provision of national radio and
18     television to the remote communities is helping to keep
19     the local issues in perspective as well.  A previous
20     speaker spoke on behalf of many of our small
21     communities.  I used to function as his president of
22     the Association of Yukon Communities, and I am well
23     aware of how important it is to keep the issues in
24     perspective when you are dealing with municipal
25     leadership.


 1  270                  I feel that by accessing the
 2     information that is provided through the news channels
 3     of the CBC, it does very much help to keep in
 4     perspective what other communities are dealing with
 5     while we struggle with some of the same issues.
 6  271                  I would also have to say that locally
 7     CBC radio sets the standard for the local media to try
 8     to keep up to.  As one who is frustrated from time to
 9     time with communicating to the public and as someone
10     who speaks for the public on many occasions, I find it
11     very important that we have a standard-setter that
12     would bring the quality of broadcasting that CBC brings
13     to the local interests.
14  272                  I do believe that when CBC is on the
15     job, the media coverage is better in any event.  And I
16     can speak from some experience.
17  273                  There was a local decision made some
18     time ago after we were feeling the first effects of the
19     rather dramatic budget cuts of a few years ago when
20     city council meetings were no longer covered by CBC. 
21     It definitely changed the prospective of the reporting
22     on the council procedures, which I don't think was to
23     the better.
24  274                  When CBC realized that we were the
25     newsmakers and it was a priority again to attend


 1     Whitehorse city council meetings, we found that the
 2     reporting was much more accurate and broader; that we
 3     would see issues covered in a more holistic way, if you
 4     like.
 5  275                  The next question was:
 6                            "In the new millennium, should
 7                            the CBC fulfil its role in a
 8                            different manner than it has in
 9                            the past?"
10  276                  My advice would be to stay the course
11     with regard to attention to the local broadcast
12     stations.  In fact, I would encourage you to
13     increase -- to take us back to local management
14     priority here.  We are struggling with being glommed in
15     with the rest of the North.
16  277                  Several speakers have made reference
17     to the differences that are evident from the
18     perspective of the rest of the country.  If you
19     actually look at a map of Canada and compare the
20     distance between Yellowknife and Whitehorse, for
21     instance, if you were thinking of distance only rather
22     than population, as you can well imagine, the distances
23     are as vast as they would be between Edmonton and
24     Vancouver.  It is with the help of such people as the
25     CBC that we can give Canadians a more appropriate


 1     perspective of who we are and how we differ.
 2  278                  Some of the best things about
 3     Canadians are the ways they are different from each
 4     other.  Yes, we have a lot in common, but we are not
 5     the same people, any more than the people in Edmonton
 6     and Vancouver are the same people.
 7  279                  I would encourage you to keep setting
 8     the standard at the local media level, to encourage CBC
 9     to be allowed to do that.
10  280                  I would also like to see less
11     repetition of programming.  We have heard other
12     presenters make reference to that, so I won't go into
13     that in much detail.
14  281                  I would also like to see more
15     Canadian content in the CBC television that we are
16     benefiting from here.  I think that is the role of a
17     public broadcaster, and certainly we have no trouble
18     filling our airwaves with the incredible Canadian
19     talent on the radio side.  And I would challenge us to
20     try to do the same thing where television coverage is
21     concerned.
22                            "How well does the CBC serve the
23                            public on a regional...level?"
24  282                  Locally, CBC radio sets the standard
25     for the media, as I have already mentioned.  I believe


 1     that there is good coverage of local issues, but I
 2     believe the coverage could be better outside of
 3     Whitehorse for issues and interest stories that are
 4     taking place outside of the locally referred to urban
 5     environment.
 6  283                  We recognize the effects of budget
 7     cuts, and we see those in the coverage of some of the
 8     news items that take place outside of the Whitehorse
 9     area.
10  284                  Remote communities rely very heavily
11     on CBC for information of a local nature, and this
12     requires a healthy and effective public broadcasting
13     network.
14  285                  There was reference made earlier to
15     receiving our weather forecasts, that don't change from
16     morning to night on the weekends, that are produced out
17     of Yellowknife.  We have people who make their living
18     on the land in the North, not only in the Yukon but
19     across the North.  While a weather forecast for someone
20     who lives in downtown anywhere else in Canada might
21     mean what clothing to I wear today, do I bring my
22     umbrella, do I wear my galoshes, it can be a matter of
23     life and death to have an accurate weather forecast if
24     you are a northern family making your living on the
25     land.


 1  286                  I think that that idea has been
 2     forgotten with the provision of accurate weather
 3     forecasting.  Locally, we suffer from the closure of
 4     our local weather office, which I think has had quite
 5     an impact on our weather information.
 6  287                  I just want to stress the point that
 7     it is important that we have accurate local weather
 8     forecasts that we can understand.  And I have to say
 9     that locally we have seen that slip a lot.  I am not
10     sure if we are in the central part or in the southern
11     part, or if we are included in --
12  288                  We have made some changes to the way
13     the forecast is made on CBC radio that leaves a lot of
14     us totally confused as to what we are to expect.
15  289                  I think that when we look at public
16     broadcasting, we have to remember that one of the
17     reasons that we have public broadcasting is to provide
18     service where no opportunity for entrepreneurial
19     service exists, and that certainly is extremely
20     relevant here in the Yukon.
21  290                  We have talked about homes where
22     broadcasting opportunities are not there, where people
23     actually can't listen to radio.  I think with today's
24     technologies we should be a little more sensitive to
25     providing the same services throughout.


 1  291                  I don't want to repeat things that
 2     have already been mentioned here, so I am just going
 3     through my notes for a second.
 4  292                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Take your time.
 5  293                  MS WATSON:  I want to stress again
 6     that we certainly have seen the impact of the budget
 7     cuts locally, and they really do have a very poignant
 8     impact on the local flavour of the local broadcasting.
 9  294                  The next question I want to address
10     is:
11                            "How well does the CBC serve the
12                            public on a...national level?"
13  295                  I have made some reference to this
14     earlier.
15  296                  All CBC listeners and interviewers
16     have the same opportunity to be as informed as each
17     other.  I think that is a totally relevant issue when
18     it comes to national broadcasting.  In other
19     jurisdictions it seems that the quality of reporting
20     has lost focus on some of the issues.
21  297                  I think that this is not just an
22     issue that is particular to CBC, but I see it in the
23     media in a broader way.  Reporting is supposed to keep
24     the masses informed and not to create a story and not
25     to prompt public opinion, but to bring information to


 1     the masses.
 2  298                  As I said, I don't see this just as a
 3     CBC broadcasting issue, but I see it as an issue that
 4     is becoming very important nationally.  We have been
 5     inundated with the garbage of American politics and
 6     media created hype over stories that quickly lost
 7     interest to their common people in the United States.
 8  299                  I would hate to see Canadian
 9     broadcasting following in those footsteps.  I find it
10     tacky, distasteful and totally irrelevant to the
11     important issues of a national perspective.  I would
12     guard any national broadcaster to avoid that.
13  300                  I would just stress that Canadians
14     are more open-minded, and they prefer to make their own
15     opinions based on the facts.  I think we want to stay
16     focused on that.
17  301                  I mentioned earlier that national
18     broadcasting is an effective tool at communicating
19     local lifestyles and stories to the national observer. 
20     I would encourage CBC to stay focused on that, again
21     being a very important standard-setter.
22  302                  I have to say that, personally, I
23     love the national programming.  Vinyl Cafe is the time
24     on my weekend when no one is allowed to interrupt me. 
25     That is my favourite program, and I look forward to it. 


 1     The minute it is over, I look forward to the next
 2     Sunday.
 3  303                  I also really enjoy Arthur Black and
 4     Definitely Not The Opera, and I have to say that the
 5     quality of national programming on CBC radio is just
 6     excellent.
 7  304                  The next question is:
 8                            "Should the programming provided
 9                            by CBC radio and television be
10                            different from that provided by
11                            other broadcasters?"
12  305                  I have touched on that a bit in my
13     comments previously.  I think that we have to stay
14     focused on the local-to-national and national-to-local
15     perspective.
16  306                  Reliance in the smaller and more
17     remote communities on keeping connected with the
18     national issues is really vital, and also keeping the
19     national interest focused on lifestyles of all
20     Canadians is extremely and equally as vital.
21  307                  We want to stay focused on providing
22     service where service is not likely to be provided by
23     private interests, but we also don't want to do that at
24     the expense of providing a balance in communities where
25     there are other opportunities as well.


 1                            "Is there a special role that
 2                            the CBC should play in the
 3                            presentation of Canadian
 4                            programming?"
 5  308                  I have already mentioned -- and I am
 6     sorry to be so repetitive -- that I think the Canadian
 7     television opportunities for exposure to Canadian
 8     talent are being underutilized.  I think the more
 9     exposure we get, the better the quality of Canadian
10     entertainment.
11  309                  Let's face it, the world is paying
12     attention to Canadian talent, and there is sure lots of
13     it.  We are a real beneficiary of extremely talented
14     people here in the North, and I think we have seen that
15     in some of the CBC broadcasting that has been produced
16     locally and broadcast nationally.  So let's not lose
17     sight of that, and let's please give Canadians the best
18     opportunity to be promoted through Canadian television.
19  310                  I also have to say that the quality
20     of staying local with local broadcasting has been very,
21     very good.
22  311                  I am going to read to you one of the
23     comments from one of the people at the city of
24     Whitehorse who provided comments.  I just want to share
25     it with you because I think it is easier through his


 1     words than through mine.
 2                            "Whitehorse listeners appreciate
 3                            past efforts of CBC to reflect
 4                            regional issues.  Our community
 5                            appreciates that in recent years
 6                            Peter Gzowski, Arthur Black and
 7                            other hosts have been
 8                            broadcasting national shows from
 9                            Whitehorse and other communities
10                            north of 60."  (As read)
11  312                  That would include Vicki Gabbereau
12     recently.
13                            "In addition, several special
14                            features have covered northern
15                            issues.  The frequency and
16                            extent of regionally produced
17                            shows and special features
18                            should increase because they
19                            provide all Canadians an
20                            increasingly vital exposure to
21                            important northern issues.  More
22                            frequent national programs
23                            produced from northern
24                            communities and smaller capital
25                            cities, such as Whitehorse, will


 1                            give CBC programming a more
 2                            national character."  (As read)
 3  313                  I want to finish my comments today by
 4     bringing one more personal perspective to the table,
 5     and that is with regard to two programs that we no
 6     longer hear on CBC radio.  One of them is Double
 7     Exposure, which gave us all a great opportunity to
 8     laugh at ourselves and certainly was another program
 9     that I used to look forward to on a weekly basis.  And
10     I really miss Vicki in the afternoons.
11  314                  Thank you very much on behalf of
12     Whitehorse for the opportunity to present to you today.
13  315                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
14     much, Mayor Watson.
15                                                        1445
16  316                  MS PINSKY:  The next presenter in
17     Whitehorse is Mr. John Irving.
19  317                  MR. IRVING:  Thank you for allowing
20     me to attend.  I did have to miss work to be here, but
21     I think it is very important.  If I was living in the
22     communities and was made aware of it, I would have been
23     in here.  I would have paid my hotel; I would have lost
24     two days' wages.
25  318                  I will say at the top that in the


 1     last decade of cutbacks to CBC, it has been heard
 2     throughout the North.  I have been in the North since
 3     1960, all over the North.  I have made my home in
 4     Whitehorse for the past 22 years.
 5  319                  The national issues are covered very
 6     well, and I think there isn't a particular bias.  I
 7     think we get both sides of the issue.
 8  320                  I am not going to speak to TV.  I am
 9     just going to speak to radio, AM radio, because we
10     don't have the opportunity to get CBC Two.  I lived in
11     Labrador for a number of years.  I have friends and
12     family from one end of the country to the next.  So
13     with communication with them, I know what their issues
14     are and I see them reflected in a national perspective
15     on CBC One.
16  321                  The cutbacks have been draining. 
17     What can I say.  The only comparison is the cutbacks to
18     the trains, in that they just kept cutting back and
19     cutting back and cutting back, and pretty soon people
20     didn't want to be on the trains.  Well, guess what? 
21     Now they don's have passenger service.  Are you
22     surprised?
23  322                  If CBC is kept cut back at the rate
24     that they have been over this last decade, nobody will
25     tune in three years.  If they dribble it out, maybe


 1     they can make it last ten years.  But pretty soon
 2     people will turn off.
 3  323                  And guess what we will have to listen
 4     to?  We get to listen to the broadcast news from the
 5     American stations, with American perspectives.  You
 6     don't get the national issues.  And we get mostly
 7     music -- if you want to call it that.  Some of it is
 8     like noise.  I guess it is a matter of taste.
 9  324                  But it is not what I consider a
10     viable alternative.  I hear a lot of people say:  Oh, I
11     don't listen to CBC.  I don't care if CBC goes off the
12     air.  But when you are sitting around the lunch room
13     and talk about issues, they are talking about issues
14     that are brought up on Cross Country Check-Up and they
15     are talking about issues that are brought up on As It
16     Happens.
17  325                  I made it a point over the last
18     number of years not to initiate these.  They are
19     initiated with people who have no contact with CBC.  So
20     I kind of smile to myself and carry on the
21     conversation.
22  326                  I don't know what the per cent of
23     people is that listens to CBC.  If it is only 10 per
24     cent of the population, I would suggest that most of
25     them would be in the North.  I feel very sorry for the


 1     ignorant people in southern Canada who don't get the
 2     national perspective.  If they do, I don't know where
 3     they are getting it from.  They are not getting it from
 4     The Globe and Mail or the papers out of Montreal, or
 5     Halifax for that matter.
 6  327                  I thank you for listening to me and
 7     taking my perspective.
 8  328                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you for
 9     participating, Mr. Irving.
10  329                  MS PINSKY:  The next presenter in
11     Whitehorse is Ms Barbara Drury.
13  330                  MS DRURY:  I am speaking as a farmer
14     and somebody that lives out of Whitehorse.  I am
15     speaking on behalf of CBC radio, because that is what
16     is really important to me and my family and friends.
17  331                  I represent, actually, probably a lot
18     of people in what I am saying here, because everybody I
19     know, and all my family, listen to CBC, and we have
20     just about all our lives.
21  332                  I have lived in B.C. and I have lived
22     in the Yukon, between these two provinces or
23     territories, all my life.  I am dependent on CBC to
24     give me a national perspective on the news, and I am
25     dependent on CBC to give me the local perspective of


 1     whatever community that I have lived in.
 2  333                  I really love this radio station.  I
 3     think it is terrible the way the federal government is
 4     withholding support from it.  I think it is one of the
 5     best things that we have in this country.  It ties us
 6     together as Canadians.  It brings us together in our
 7     local communities too.
 8  334                  I listen to the local morning radio,
 9     the noon show and I would listen in the afternoon, as
10     well, to get anything that might have happened during
11     the day.  It keeps us up to date.
12  335                  I really like the national shows as
13     well, like As It Happens, Cross Country Check-Up,
14     Tapestry, and The Science Show at noon on Saturday; and
15     Quirks and Quarks and Arthur Black.  I could go on and
16     on, I guess, but I think you can get my drift that it's
17     a really important radio station.  I think the federal
18     government really needs to support it, because by
19     supporting CBC radio, I think they are supporting
20     Canada.
21  336                  Thanks very much.
22  337                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
23     much, Ms Drury.
24  338                  MS PINSKY:  The two other presenters
25     who are in Whitehorse can proceed.  I am sorry, I


 1     didn't catch their names.  These are the two who had
 2     not registered.
 3  339                  MS NESBITT-DUFOR:  Can you hear me?
 4  340                  MS PINSKY:  Yes.
 5  341                  MS NESBITT-DUFOR:  I am one of the
 6     people who registered ten days ago but whose name is
 7     not on the list.
 8  342                  MS PINSKY:  That's fine.  What is
 9     your name?
10  343                  MS NESBITT-DUFOR:  My name is
11     Jennifer Nesbitt-Dufor.
12  344                  May I continue?
13  345                  MS PINSKY:  Yes.
15  346                  MS NESBITT-DUFOR:  I live in rural
16     Yukon now.  When I first came to Canada, it was
17     straight to a small northern one-industry town where I
18     remained for the next 13 years.
19  347                  CBC programs on radio and television
20     were then, as they are now, my only experience of other
21     parts of Canada and of Canada as a whole.  CBC gave me
22     a perspective on local, national and world events, as
23     seen from a Canadian point of view.  It educated me
24     about other regions of Canada which I did not know.  It
25     gave me an interest in Canadian politics, culture,


 1     science, music, humour and it gave me a sense of
 2     belonging in a new country.
 3  348                  My children grew up watching and
 4     enjoying the excellent children's programming on CBC
 5     television.  Now they are in their thirties, and they
 6     are watching CBC again.  I have one son who has spent
 7     some time in the U.S.A.  He tells me of having access
 8     to 500 television channels there but finding hardly
 9     anything worth watching on them.  I have the same
10     experience myself when I visit friends who have cable
11     television service.
12  349                  If CBC did not exist, how would
13     people in rural areas, who do not have or cannot afford
14     cable or Internet service, have access to national
15     broadcasting?
16  350                  CBC radio serves regions very well
17     indeed, in my opinion.  Here in the Yukon we have
18     excellent local news and programs, while the national
19     radio programming on CBC gives us interesting news and
20     information from all the other provinces.
21  351                  There is a feeling of knowing what is
22     happening across Canada as a whole.  There is a rich
23     variety of political discussion and comment of music,
24     popular culture, science and humour.  There is a
25     consideration of different ethnic and cultural groups. 


 1     I particularly value the fact that CBC radio is
 2     commercial free.
 3  352                  I do have a problem with CBC policy
 4     as it affects the recent transfer of a very popular
 5     music program on Radio One and Radio Two, stereo FM. 
 6     People like myself who live in rural areas do not have
 7     access to CBC stereo.  Many of us cannot afford to have
 8     Internet service.
 9  353                  We would ask that CBC rebroadcast
10     such programs which have been transferred, rebroadcast
11     them on Radio One and not just remove them from it.
12  354                  CBC television programming scheduling
13     could be improved in our area.  Regular regional
14     programming here consists of one half hour of northern
15     news in the evening.  This is additional to three hours
16     of existing news we already have in the prime time
17     between 6:00 and 11:30 p.m.  In that time slot, we get
18     one-and-a-half hours of B.C. news, one-and-a-half hours
19     of national news, and half-an-hour of northern news. 
20     This adds up to a total of three-and-a-half hours of
21     news, leaving only two hours for other programs.
22  355                  In order to bring us this, national
23     programming in that extra half-hour time slot is
24     preempted and it so often is the arts programs that we
25     miss.  We can't get Adrian Clarkson.  We can't watch


 1     Laurie Brown on the arts, because we have an additional
 2     half hour of news programmed instead.
 3  356                  I would like to see one half-hour of
 4     B.C. news dropped, so that we could have the national
 5     programming in that time slot.
 6  357                  It is far too difficult to find out
 7     what program schedules are on CBC North television. 
 8     Since national programs are pre-empted for northern
 9     news in the evenings, none of the published national TV
10     listings work.  I can't find any CBC North schedule on
11     the CBC Internet site.  I can get a printout from the
12     local CBC office of that particular evening's
13     programming, but that is far too difficult to do on a
14     daily basis.
15  358                  Overall, however, I would very much
16     like to see the CBC get increased funding, which would
17     be long-term and stable so that it can go on making
18     programs which, in my opinion, are unique and which
19     contribute to the unity of the country.
20  359                  CBC should have adequate funding so
21     that its employees are paid on par with the private
22     sector.  It should be independent from business and
23     from government so that it can be critical and
24     controversial when need be.  Rather than having to
25     close foreign bureaus, it should have more funding so


 1     that it can go on maintaining journalists in all parts
 2     of the world to keep Canadians informed; more funding
 3     so that programs like North of Sixty are not cancelled
 4     because they are not commercially possible.
 5  360                  It should be helped to maintain the
 6     successful role it plays now.
 7  361                  I value the CBC very highly.  It is
 8     one of the reason I am still here in Canada, and it is
 9     one of the reasons I chose to become a Canadian
10     citizen.
11  362                  Thank you.
12  363                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Ms
13     Nesbitt-Dufor.
15  364                  MS NOBLE:  Can you hear me all right?
16  365                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  We can hear you. 
17     Can you identify yourself, please.
18  366                  MS NOBLE:  Yes.  My name is Gail
19     Noble.  I am a resident of Whitehorse, where I have
20     lived and worked since 1985.
21  367                  Before coming to the Yukon, I lived
22     and worked in Nanaimo and Prince George, British
23     Columbia, St. John's, Newfoundland, and Inuvik in the
24     Northwest Territories.
25  368                  I mention where I lived previously


 1     because I, like many other people in Canada, came here
 2     as an immigrant.  I came in 1974 from the United States
 3     and went straight to Inuvik as a landed immigrant.
 4  369                  I am still here.  I am retiring in
 5     May, and I will be staying in Canada.  A key element of
 6     my experience in Canada and my decision not to return
 7     to the United States where my family lives has been,
 8     and continues to be, the CBC.
 9  370                  It is primarily CBC radio.  I never
10     owned a TV until I came to the Yukon, because most of
11     my work has been on the road, so to speak, in isolated
12     areas, and because of the local programming of CBC.
13  371                  As was mentioned by Mayor Watson, it
14     is pretty crucial to know what the road conditions are
15     and what the weather is up ahead when it is minus 35
16     Celsius and blowing snow.
17  372                  CBC has taught me about Canada, a
18     place I knew nothing about until I landed here some
19     years ago.  Being used to what I call the wasteland of
20     what passes for radio and TV in the United States, I
21     have become totally dependent on CBC for news, weather,
22     entertainment and an understanding of Canada; from
23     north to south, from east to west.
24  373                  I have met a lot of people today.  I
25     don't have a lot of time to read or watch TV, but I can


 1     always tune in to CBC while I am doing other things,
 2     like washing windows or washing the dishes.  CBC keeps
 3     me up to date on what is happening locally, nationally
 4     and internationally.
 5  374                  I will also add that we are in the
 6     North, and newspapers like The Globe and Mail, The
 7     Vancouver Sun, and papers from Edmonton often don't get
 8     here.  Often they are bumped on the plane.  Often they
 9     arrive late.  And they are often more expensive.
10  375                  I trust CBC.  Why?  Because it is the
11     public broadcaster.  It is paid for by money as a
12     taxpayer, as well as taxpayers across the country.  Its
13     mandate is to the people of Canada, not to the
14     temporary politicians who come and go, not the IT&Ts or
15     Microsofts of the world.  It is money I happily pay in
16     taxes, and not to advertisers who do influence what is
17     being presented on TV.
18  376                  Personally, I can remember many a day
19     and night, driving or trying to drive home in white-out
20     conditions on isolated lonely stretches of the Yukon,
21     on the winter roads on the way to Tuktoyaktuk or
22     logging roads in northern B.C.  I was usually alone.  I
23     was scared.  I was tired.  But I could almost always
24     tune in to CBC and still be in touch with the world,
25     listening to Peter Gzowski, Alan Maitland, and it was


 1     sort of like a warm fire.  I knew I was going to make
 2     it.
 3  377                  Nationally, I think CBC is crucial to
 4     our understanding of each other and of what is
 5     important to all aspects of the country.
 6  378                  One of the greatest events in my life
 7     was the Mackenzie Valley Pipeline Inquiry of Justice
 8     Thomas Berger.  Do you remember that?  The inquiry was
 9     a landmark in Canadian history and an example for many
10     places around the world.  Canada did it right.  It
11     enabled all the actors and all those affected to
12     present their viewpoints on a national scene.
13  379                  A crucial reason why the pipeline
14     inquiry was so important is because of CBC.  A lot of
15     people in central and southern Canada knew nothing
16     about the North, and they could have cared less.  That
17     was until the inquiry became available to everyone in
18     Canada on regular radio broadcasts right across the
19     country and in the languages people could understand.
20  380                  I remember huddling by the radio in
21     Fort Good Hope or Sacks Harbour or in Halifax or in
22     Ottawa and listening to the daily broadcast of CBC on
23     the day's events on the pipeline inquiry.  I also
24     remember the faces of the people in Palituk(ph), Fort
25     Franklin, and Holman Island as they listened to


 1     themselves on the radio.  For the first time, someone
 2     was listening to them.  They were part of Canada.
 3  381                  Besides our own issues, I think the
 4     CBC is crucial in enabling us to understand what is
 5     happening around the world.  This is terribly important
 6     for a trading country.  I never cease to be amazed at
 7     the ignorance of my friends south of the border.  They
 8     don't know much about what is happening outside of the
 9     U.S., even though their actions have a powerful effect
10     on other people all around the world.  The United
11     States does not have a public broadcaster like CBC,
12     whose mandate is to assist Canadians to learn about
13     each other, and also to hear about the world and to
14     broadcast what Canada is about to the world.
15  382                  In closing, I want to say that if we
16     think democracy is the best form of government, then
17     all of us have to have access to accurate information
18     and a variety of viewpoints.  In Canada today,
19     particularly with the buying up of newspapers by
20     various conglomerates, there is no source of accurate
21     and current information on events internally and
22     externally, except CBC, the public broadcaster.
23  383                  Thank you.
24  384                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
25     much, Ms Noble.


 1  385                  I think what we will do is take a
 2     ten-minute break at this juncture.  When we return, we
 3     will go to Yellowknife and hear the presenters there.
 4  386                  My question to people on the line in
 5     Inuvik and Whitehorse is:  Would you like to remain on
 6     and hear the presentations from Yellowknife?
 7  387                  Are you there?
 8  388                  UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:  Yes.  I think
 9     they are just taking a poll in the room.  Just a
10     moment.
11  389                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  I will explain why. 
12     When we are finished with the calls from Yellowknife,
13     the CBC representative here will respond briefly.  If
14     you had not wanted to stay on, I thought she could
15     maybe respond now and then again after Yellowknife.
16  390                  That is the reason I asked.
17  391                  UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:  Our people are
18     going to stay here.
19  392                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
20     much.  We will all be back in ten minutes.
21     --- Recess at 1510 / Suspension à 1510
22     --- Upon resuming at 1520 / Reprise à 1520
23  393                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good afternoon. 
24     Welcome back.
25  394                  Whitehorse, are you there?


 1  395                  UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:  Whitehorse is
 2     here.
 3  396                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good.  How about
 4     Yellowknife?
 5  397                  UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:  Can you hear
 6     us?
 7  398                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes, we can hear
 8     you fine.  Can you hear us?
 9  399                  UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:  Yes, we can.
10  400                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good.  Inuvik, are
11     you there?
12     --- No response / Pas de réponse
13  401                  MS PINSKY:  Our first presenter from
14     Yellowknife will be Mr. Brad Heath.
16  402                  MR. HEATH:  Hi.  My name is Brad
17     Heath.  I will try to keep my comments brief.  If I
18     lose my train of thought, bear with me.  I have been
19     scratching out things and adding things to my notes
20     while listening to the other people.  So I am in kind
21     of a mess here.
22  403                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  No problem.
23  404                  MR. HEATH:  I am speaking as a
24     private citizen.  I don't watch TV, so most of my
25     comments are on CBC radio.


 1  405                  I came to Yellowknife in 1987 to work
 2     as a reporter and photographer for The Yellowknifer and
 3     News North newspapers, and I have been here ever since. 
 4     I am now self-employed as a freelance writer and
 5     photographer.
 6  406                  During my years as a reporter, I
 7     lived and worked in a dozen small towns and cities in
 8     Ontario, Saskatchewan, Alberta, British Columbia and
 9     the Northwest Territories.  This has given me a
10     first-hand view on the importance of CBC for those of
11     us who live in rural Canada.
12  407                  In short, I believe the CBC is the
13     only media that truly connects Canadians from sea to
14     sea to sea.  Rarely do you find stories in The Globe
15     and Mail about the Northwest Territories.
16  408                  Actually, one of the few regrets in
17     my life is that I didn't discover CBC radio until I was
18     a college student.  I think growing up I would have
19     known more about my own country if I had.
20  409                  I was born and raised in the deep
21     south of Ontario, less than an hour-and-a-half from
22     Detroit; and as a result, in my youth I listened almost
23     exclusively to radio stations broadcasting out of
24     Detroit.  If I could go back in time, I would gladly
25     switch from those Detroit stations to CBC radio.  I


 1     deeply regret that I came so late to knowing a Canadian
 2     such as the late Stan Rogers.
 3  410                  I disagree with people who say that
 4     private broadcasters could fulfil the role of the CBC. 
 5     We might save taxpayer dollars, but in my opinion much
 6     of what private broadcasters give people is the
 7     broadcast equivalent of junk food; a diet of violence,
 8     sexual and racial stereotypes and infomercials: 
 9     programs such as Beavis and Butthead, Gerry Springer,
10     Howard Stern and Bay Watch.
11  411                  On the other hand, CBC provides us
12     with intelligent, thought-provoking programs which
13     expose listeners to a wide variety of opinions, music,
14     cultures and ideas:  quality programs such as Ideas,
15     This Morning, As it Happens, Quirks and Quarks, Basic
16     Black, Nature of Things, This Hour Has 22 Minutes,
17     Fifth Estate and many more, including my personal
18     favourite The Vinyl Cafe.
19  412                  Personally, I consider Stuart McLean
20     a story-teller on par with Stephen Leacock.
21  413                  I believe that both CBC TV and radio
22     are essential services in Canada.  As I said before,
23     they link us from sea to sea to sea, and they give a
24     voice to Canadians in remote regions and communities. 
25     I think there is little doubt that these voices would


 1     be silent if left to private broadcasters.
 2  414                  I also think that CBC North is
 3     essential because it provides aboriginal language
 4     programming.  I think it is a vital element in the
 5     struggle to preserve aboriginal languages.
 6  415                  The CBC is also one of the few media
 7     agencies which actually employs a significant number of
 8     aboriginal broadcasters and reporters.
 9  416                  Those are my comments.
10  417                  National programming, I would like to
11     see the CBC radio stay as it is.  I think it is just
12     wonderful.  For CBC North, I think that funding has to
13     be restored so that we can bring the quality of the
14     programming back to what it was a few years ago.  I
15     think the funding cuts by the federal Liberals have
16     resulted in a serious lowering of the quality of the
17     programming we get here.
18  418                  I know that people probably do the
19     best they can with a limited budget, but we get weather
20     updates and forecasts and reports about four times an
21     hour.  I sadly refer to the CBC programming now as the
22     weather channel, because that is what we get a lot of. 
23     As I think Mr. Lendrum commented, we have too much
24     repetition.
25  419                  I would just like to respond to


 1     someone who said that they thought the CBC had not a
 2     balanced enough point of view, with more of a left
 3     view.  I think there is no shortage of venues for
 4     people whose opinions are to the right of the general.
 5  420                  That's all.  Thanks.
 6  421                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 7     much, Mr. Heath.
 8  422                  MS PINSKY:  The next presenter in
 9     Yellowknife is Mr. Bill Powless.
10  423                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good evening,
11     Mr. Powless.  You may begin your presentation.
13  424                  MR. POWLESS:  Thank you.  While I
14     appreciate CBC national radio and television
15     broadcasting in many programs, and I have respected
16     many of the efforts of the CBC Mackenzie Regional Radio
17     and Television Department, nevertheless I believe the
18     regional service is a large expense that could be
19     redirected.
20  425                  It lacks the objectivity to recognize
21     the flaws and efficiencies of their programming and
22     should be closed.  The lack of objectivity may be
23     attributed to the fact that the Regional Director of
24     Radio and Television is the wife of a territorial
25     Cabinet Minister.  How else can you explain that there


 1     is a whole afternoon every weekday, four hours, from
 2     1305 to 1700 hours, devoted to aboriginal languages: 
 3     Dogrib, North and South Slavey and Chipewyan.  Compare
 4     this to CBC Yukon regional radio schedule.
 5  426                  The same time segment shows The
 6     Valley Voice, with Peter Novak, Richardson's Round-Up
 7     and Yukon Today, with Becky Stregler(ph).  The only
 8     aboriginal language program is People Speak Gwich'in 
 9     from after the 1700 news to 1800 hours on Sunday
10     evening.
11  427                  When I told this to the CBC North
12     Program Marketing Coordinator, she answered that the
13     Yukon actually has more aboriginal languages than the
14     Northwest Territories, and that makes it impractical to
15     have aboriginal programming.
16  428                  That's a good answer, but at what
17     number does it become impractical?
18  429                  The Broadcasting Act states:
19                            "The national broadcasting
20                            service should be a balanced
21                            service of information,
22                            enlightenment and entertainment
23                            for people of different ages,
24                            interests and tastes, covering
25                            the whole range of programming


 1                            in fair proportion."  (As read)
 2  430                  Does the Mackenzie network consider
 3     itself exempt from these requirements?
 4  431                  The CBC Mackenzie network has
 5     hijacked the mandate of the native communication
 6     society, both in radio and TV.  The objects of the said
 7     society are:
 8                            "(a) to promote and develop
 9                            improved communications with,
10                            and between native communities
11                            of the NWT; (b) to promote and
12                            develop communications between
13                            the native people of the
14                            Northwest Territories and
15                            non-natives of the Northwest
16                            Territories, as well as with
17                            natives and non-natives of other
18                            than the Northwest Territories;
19                            and (c) to develop, operate and
20                            maintain mass media and
21                            generally undertake any activity
22                            which, in the opinion of the
23                            members, will assist in the
24                            promoting of the objects of the
25                            society."  (As read)


 1  432                  The radio transmissions of the
 2     society all operate under the call sign of CKLB, and
 3     their coverage is very close to duplicating or
 4     exceeding that of the CBC Mackenzie network.
 5  433                  The TV transmissions are broadcast by
 6     NCTV -- that is Northern Canada Television -- who say
 7     they serve more communities than CBC.  They also say
 8     their viewers do not require cable or a dish; that a
 9     rabbit ear antenna is all that is required.
10  434                  We can see duplication of the CBC
11     North TV program North Beat, which shows on the CBC
12     Mackenzie network at 2000 to 2030, and the same show
13     appears on NCTV, the same night, at 2200 to 2230.
14  435                  Meanwhile, the Mackenzie network
15     shows our so-called regional news broadcast at 1900
16     hours, which originates in B.C., and contains little,
17     if any, interest in our locality.  This time slot might
18     be appropriate for North Beat.
19  436                  The CBC Mackenzie radio network tries
20     to justify its presence by providing "survival
21     information".  When I complained to the CBC North
22     Program Marketing Coordinator that when an announcer
23     said they were giving the weather, they proceeded to
24     give the forecast.  She answered she didn't have a
25     problem calling a forecast the weather.


 1  437                  It reminded me of a comment I heard
 2     on the radio at the time Perrin Beatty became CBC
 3     president and there were large CBC layoffs, to the
 4     effect that:  Facts are expensive; opinion is cheap. 
 5     You are going to get a lot more opinion.  Exactly.
 6  438                  Weather conditions are facts and
 7     forecasts are opinions.
 8  439                  What we have in the CBC Mackenzie
 9     radio network are 11 forecast areas and 21 reporting
10     stations, and a weather report is over four minutes
11     long.  I requested having the conditions read before
12     the forecast, but they didn't change the order.
13  440                  I don't believe anyone correlates the
14     forecast with the subsequent weather.  Last May in a
15     seven-day period rain was forecast for two of the days
16     and a 50 per cent chance of rain for three of the days. 
17     In that seven days, I detected no rain, and I was
18     looking.
19  441                  One announcer even starts with:  Here
20     is your CBC forecast.  Is this the CBC's area of
21     expertise?  At least when Environment Canada had a
22     Yellowknife office, the forecast was very accurate.
23  442                  Personally, I prefer weather
24     conditions as survival information.  But we are served
25     a recorded forecast after the hourly news all the time. 


 1     That's while the national programming is on.  It may be
 2     12 hours or more before hearing actual weather
 3     conditions.
 4  443                  The recorded forecasts are made for
 5     both CBC Mackenzie and the Yukon by the same announcer,
 6     so that when I told Ian Hanna(ph) of the CBC News
 7     Department that these announcers aren't in the radio
 8     station on the weekend, he answered:  There's always
 9     someone in the station.  But he didn't say if there was
10     an announcer.
11  444                  When I asked him if they are paid for
12     these recorded announcements, he replied that their
13     employees get paid for their work.  It sounds like a
14     cottage industry.
15  445                  One example of the disconnect of
16     survival information was when several of the recorded
17     hourly forecasts announced by Walter Brown mentioned
18     the North Great Slave area should have a few clouds, a
19     low of 12 degrees Celsius, and tomorrow sunny, with a
20     high of 23 degrees Celsius; no mention of the dense
21     smoke from the fires around Reid and Tibet(ph) Lake. 
22     The smoke was so dense that the Ingram Trail Road was
23     closed at the Dethet(ph) turnoff.  It was pointless to
24     call the radio station, because the radio message said
25     the station would re-open Monday morning.


 1  446                  It was the same response that was
 2     given one Saturday afternoon when, after a power
 3     failure, the station went off the air for about one
 4     hour.  It finally came back on the air.  May the person
 5     who is always there finally noticed.
 6  447                  CBC Yellowknife, CFYK radio, is
 7     supposed to have back-up power in case of power
 8     failure.  I did notice that Dave Bondy, who is the new
 9     announcer on Saturday and Sunday morning program called
10     Northern Air now gives a phone number at which he can
11     be contacted in case something important needs to be
12     broadcast during the time the national network programs
13     are on.
14  448                  The programs amalgamate the weather,
15     road conditions, and local notices for both CBC Yukon
16     and Mackenzie radio networks originates in Yellowknife
17     with a correction for the time zones in the Yukon.
18  449                  I dislike the cult of the personality
19     at CBC.  I cannot listen to any program with Michael
20     Enright.  Therefore, I am doubly, triply dismayed by
21     having This Morning tonight, and on Sunday three hours
22     of This Morning.  I didn't listen to As It Happened as
23     long as Enright was there, but now it is my favourite
24     program.
25  450                  I was hoping they would choose Ian


 1     Brown for Sunday morning.  He is listenable.  And I
 2     like Averil Benoit, but I can't risk tuning in.
 3  451                  Another irritation is the distorting
 4     of the invitation by the announcers of As It Happens to
 5     stay tuned for the news and weather.  What we get is
 6     the news and a generic promo for Mackenzie network
 7     radio programs.  The weather would only be a recorded
 8     forecast anyway.
 9  452                  If we are worried about the economy,
10     why does the CBC and the Mackenzie network require
11     operating out of two widely separated buildings? 
12     Wouldn't there be savings in having it all in one?  It
13     would save a trek for information-seekers.
14  453                  I am opposed to TV advertising, and I
15     hoped that the savings resulting from closing the
16     Mackenzie network would go toward eliminating them. 
17     But CBC TV is as guilty as anyone with their big
18     production promos for their programs.  I think that
19     they should examine the French channel TV5, to see how
20     they show their promos:  very spare and brief.
21  454                  I would like to say I am not opposed
22     to native language programming.  As I have requested
23     before, I would think that three hours, from 1305 to
24     1600, would be adequate.  And that is if Mackenzie
25     network survives.


 1  455                  I am sure that the local news and
 2     programming will be assumed by the private radio
 3     stations or the NCS CKLB stations and NCTV.  I tried to
 4     find out the cost of operating the CBC Mackenzie
 5     network, but no one could provide it.  The one who
 6     could provide the numbers was in Toronto at a meeting.
 7  456                  Thank you.
 8  457                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 9     much, Mr. Powless.
10                                                        1535
11  458                  MS PINSKY:  The next presenter is Mr.
12     Ben McDonald.
14  459                  MR. McDONALD:  I should start out by
15     saying, by way of introduction, that my name is Ben
16     McDonald.  I am the Co-Chairperson of Alternatives
17     North, and I am speaking on behalf of that
18     organization.
19  460                  Alternatives North is a northern
20     social justice coalition comprised of labour, church
21     and environmental groups, dedicated to proposing policy
22     alternatives in the Northwest Territories.  It is
23     affiliated to the Action Canada Network.
24  461                  As an aside from my script here, the
25     organization thought at first that we should come and


 1     make a presentation to the CRTC, feeling that we would
 2     be one of the few defenders of public broadcasting in
 3     the North and in the country.  But sitting here through
 4     the presentations from all the rest of the presenters,
 5     much of what I am going to say here is going to be
 6     repetitive.
 7  462                  That being said, I will move into it
 8     and try to get through it as quickly as possible.
 9  463                  Canadians need to hear as many
10     different voices as they can.  We must hear diverse
11     ideas and extensive information from the widest range
12     of perspectives possible.  It is the CBC which should
13     provide this forum for the ideas and views held by
14     Canadians.  The CBC is not like other broadcasters, and
15     it shouldn't be.  The CBC is, and must be, an
16     alternative.
17  464                  A central function for the CBC is to
18     be educational in the broadest sense of the word.  Its
19     best role, as difficult or as controversial as it may
20     be on occasion, is as a purveyor of new and unusual
21     ideas.  We are not saying that the CBC should be a
22     soapbox for crackpots, although that may indeed be part
23     of its mandate, but it should be the primary forum by
24     which Canadians can hear challenges to the received
25     wisdom.


 1  465                  Canadians need and deserve to hear
 2     about today's story, but they also need to have it
 3     grounded.  Only broadcasters with reasonably unfettered
 4     funding and high standards like the CBC can assume such
 5     a dangerous role.  For that reason, the CBC must be
 6     given independence and be strengthened by the provision
 7     of long-term and sufficient resources to act as what is
 8     really a public information and cultural exchange for
 9     Canadians.
10  466                  Private broadcasters cannot speak
11     with a public voice.  They also cannot be expected to
12     speak in the public interest.  A public broadcaster,
13     free of the worry that they might offend advertisers
14     and specifically mandated to produce high quality
15     programming from a wide range of perspectives, can
16     fulfil this role.  In fact, a politically independent
17     publicly funded broadcaster is probably the only form
18     of institution that could reasonably be expected to
19     fulfil this role, a role that is crucial to a healthy
20     democracy.
21  467                  The North is a very small market, one
22     which is not likely to be able to support a wide range
23     of commercial broadcasting outfits in any foreseeable
24     future.  In fact, the new Western Northwest Territories
25     which will come into existence on April 1st will have


 1     fewer inhabitants than an average small town in
 2     Ontario, but we will live in a land incorporating
 3     hundreds of thousands of square kilometres.
 4  468                  For northeners to be able to speak to
 5     northerners, for northerners to be able to speak to
 6     other Canadians, and for other Canadians to be able to
 7     speak to us, a strong CBC, both nationally and
 8     regionally, is essential.
 9  469                  There is little chance that any
10     entrepreneur is going to be willing to invest what
11     would be needed to get his or her signal into the
12     North, but there is virtually no chance that an
13     entrepreneur will invest much to develop northern
14     programming for broadcast either within the North or to
15     the rest of the country.  The CBC's role as a regional
16     broadcaster, as well as a national, is therefore vital
17     to the North.  It is at the same time an important
18     means by which the many peoples of the North can tell
19     and hear each other's stories.  It is also the most
20     likely means by which northerners will be able to
21     produce their stories for telling to the rest of the
22     country.
23  470                  The North needs a strong public
24     broadcaster, because it is not only a small market in
25     total but because it is also a very segmented market


 1     within itself.  We have great differences in both
 2     experiences and culture from one part of our territory
 3     to the next.  There are at least seven aboriginal
 4     languages, as well as French and English, spoken by our
 5     citizens.  The residents of Fort Smith do not
 6     experience life in the same way those living in
 7     Tuktoyaktuk do, and even more significantly, no
 8     northerner experiences life like a Torontonian does.
 9  471                  CBC North has a vital role to play in
10     this young land, helping to bring our divergent peoples
11     together.  Just as importantly, however, CBC has a role
12     to play in helping to maintain the uniqueness of each
13     culture and language in the NWT.  If children can hear
14     their language and see images of themselves on the
15     airwaves, their language and culture is legitimized and
16     strengthened.  This is a laudable goal.
17  472                  A critical role that CBC North has
18     played as a regional broadcaster in the North has been
19     with regard to its efforts in news and current affairs
20     programming.  The CBC, both radio and television, is
21     the only way that people in our far flung communities
22     are kept informed of current affairs, especially those
23     which take place outside their community in the North.
24  473                  There are commercial radio stations
25     which broadcast in Yellowknife and Hay River, but


 1     virtually all their news and current affairs
 2     programming originates in Yellowknife.  Only the CBC
 3     has a truly regional infrastructure and focus.  There
 4     seems to be no private broadcaster waiting in the wings
 5     to fill the void the cuts to CBC news and current
 6     affairs programming has been creating.
 7  474                  Much of this presentation probably
 8     reflects the broad support that exists for CBC radio.
 9     CBC television, it seems, is not held in as high regard
10     by Canadians.  Why is this?  It seems obvious that what
11     distinguishes CBC radio from other stations and what
12     does not distinguish CBC television is advertising.  We
13     believe that television should be given the chance to
14     act as a truly public broadcaster, funded to do a
15     proper job, and not required to use any of its
16     resources or energies selling advertising.  Instead, a
17     reasonable level of long-term funding should be
18     provided.
19  475                  Along with this support, however,
20     should be a clear mandate that the corporation is
21     required to continue to support high-quality Canadian
22     programming.  A portion of such programming must be
23     regional in nature and must be produced within the
24     regions.  This function would assist the development of
25     Canadian talent, as well as entertain and inform


 1     audiences.
 2  476                  The CBC has a critical role to play,
 3     not only protecting Canadian culture from American
 4     media conglomerates but also even promoting it in the
 5     face of the daily barrage coming into our homes. 
 6     Private broadcasters are naturally reluctant to
 7     produce, and then to show in prime time, Canadian
 8     productions.  It is cheaper, safer and easier to simply
 9     buy American produced programming.
10  477                  Although we acknowledge that
11     Canadians cannot be prevented from seeing and hearing
12     American programming, the CRTC should still ensure that
13     we have a choice; that we don't have to absorb
14     programming developed in a foreign country for the
15     lowest common denominator market because we have no
16     choice.
17  478                  It is in the public interest to try
18     to improve the standards of media broadcasting
19     broadcast into our homes and a strong CBC, along with
20     other Canadian media companies mandated to make
21     available in prime time quality Canadian programs, is a
22     minimum.
23  479                  In summary, the points we make are as
24     follows:  A strong public broadcaster with stable,
25     long-term reasonable funding must be an integral part


 1     of any Canadian broadcasting system; and the North
 2     needs a CBC to have a strong regional component so that
 3     they can serve both as a window for northerners to look
 4     at themselves and as a two-way window between the North
 5     and the rest of the country and the world.
 6  480                  Before closing, I should state that
 7     our organization made a conscious decision to avoid
 8     discussing the ongoing labour problems at the CBC.  We
 9     didn't want current affairs to obscure the big picture. 
10     We do want to make it clear, however, that considering
11     the cuts to the organization's budget over the past few
12     years, we consider it a wonder that it has taken the
13     workers as long as it has to take a stand.
14  481                  We also believe it to be unfortunate
15     that the strike appears to be against management at the
16     corporation when it is fairly obvious that the
17     politicians hiding behind the CBC board are the real
18     cause of the strike.
19  482                  Thank you for this opportunity to
20     express our thoughts.
21  483                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
22     McDonald.
23  484                  MS PINSKY:  Ms Marianne Maltby is the
24     next presenter.
25  485                  UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:  I think she


 1     may have left the room, so I think we will have to move
 2     on.
 3  486                  MS PINSKY:  Is Mr. John Bayly there?
 4  487                  UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:  Well, John
 5     Bayly has gone too, but he did ask me to read his
 6     submission to you, if that is all right.
 7  488                  MS PINSKY:  That is okay.
 9  489                  MS PETERS:  This is the submission of
10     John Bayly.
11  490                  It was the winter of 1967 in a place
12     called Great Whale River on the east coast of the
13     Hudson Bay that I first lay out on a caribou skin
14     gazing at the subarctic sky.  Of course, the sky was
15     full of stars and sometimes a meteorite would streak
16     through the atmosphere.
17  491                  Northern lights displays were as
18     spectacular there as they are here in Yellowknife. 
19     Sometimes I would lie motionless and watch the heavens
20     scarcely blinking for an hour or two.  I seldom saw an
21     airplane, and I never saw a satellite.
22  492                  Thirty years later I still like to
23     lie out on a clear night under the stars.  The sky is
24     no less spectacular in the 1990s than it was in the
25     sixties.  There is always something new.  Two planets


 1     in rare conjunction lit up the sky after Christmas. 
 2     Two years ago, for a whole winter, the comet Haley Bob
 3     walked its way from east to west across the sky.  Of
 4     course, there are now more planes in the night sky and
 5     satellites, like purposeful mites, hurry across the
 6     heavens.
 7  493                  It is not common to see a dozen or
 8     more in an hour.  These mites, satellites, shower us
 9     with communication, where 30 years ago there was almost
10     none.  A simple satellite dish, like a catcher's mitt,
11     traps the signals as they pitch out of the heavens.
12  494                  Satellite phones are beginning to
13     replace the wirebound and microwave-relayed systems.
14  495                  Today we can receive whatever we want
15     on our TV screens and often a whole lot we would rather
16     not have.  We have joined southern Canada in the super
17     station supermarket, with a channel for every taste and
18     a whole bunch more for those without much taste at all.
19  496                  In the time between the beginning of
20     my star gazing and the present, Canada gave the North a
21     great gift.  It was the CBC.  Radio came first and then
22     TV, first delayed and in cans -- you could watch the
23     hockey game, but it was last Saturday's -- and later
24     relayed in seconds by satellite.
25  497                  The CBC brought the rest of Canada to


 1     the North.  It also allowed northern people, through
 2     local and regional broadcasting, to learn about one
 3     another.  It allowed us in the North to inform
 4     Canadians elsewhere what kind of a country this is and
 5     what kind of a people we are.
 6  498                  Those last words aren't mine; they
 7     are Justice Tom Berger's.
 8  499                  In letting the CBC into the Mackenzie
 9     Valley Pipeline hearing room in the mid 1970s, and
10     insisting as part of the bargain that CBC broadcast
11     news summaries of the daily proceedings across the
12     North in half a dozen languages, it brought one of our
13     great national debates into every household in this
14     sparsely populated territory.  Then the CBC passed that
15     information around the country in the form of news in
16     the only way it could possibly have been done in a
17     nation that spans five-and-a-half time zones.
18  500                  It is because of the CBC that I was
19     able to watch the Quebec referendum results from
20     Iqaluit.  It was because of the CBC news reports of
21     starvation in the Sudan that moved the people of
22     Arvagh, who knew what it is like to starve, to give
23     $40,000 from their municipal budget to feed the hungry.
24  501                  I don't propose to tell you all the
25     things that I like and dislike about the CBC.  I have


 1     been a listener and watcher for 50 years.  I miss Max
 2     Ferguson and Alan McPhie.  I loved Gilmour's Albums.  I
 3     went to the Tommy Hunter concert in Inuvik a few years
 4     ago.  He is a Canadian icon to the people of the
 5     Mackenzie Delta, by the way.
 6  502                  I like The National and As It
 7     Happens.  So, by the way, do a lot of people south of
 8     the forty-ninth parallel.
 9  503                  I think part of what defines us,
10     whether I like it on a given day or not, is the
11     unbridled Canadian humour of the Air Farce, Codco, This
12     Hour Has 22 Minutes and Nancy White.  Our comedians
13     tell us what kind of country this is and what kind of
14     people we are, whether we like to hear it or not.
15  504                  A couple of years ago I was a guest
16     in a household in Fort Ray.  In the evening, the couple
17     I was visiting had to go out.  He had to go to a
18     community meeting and she was holding court as the
19     local justice of the peace.  They asked me to tape the
20     TV program North of Sixty so they could watch it later. 
21     I asked them why they wanted me to tape it for them. 
22     It seemed clear to me that they were living the North
23     of Sixty story.  They said what they liked was that
24     they saw themselves and their neighbours in the
25     program, and they knew and liked the fact that other


 1     Canadians were watching them too.
 2  505                  In Washington, D.C., in 1982, I found
 3     myself at a conference with a group of other northern
 4     Canadians.  One of other speakers was Ralph Nadar, the
 5     greater American consumer advocate.  Mr. Nadar came up
 6     to us over coffee and said:  You Canadians are so lucky
 7     to have a national public broadcasting system.  In the
 8     United States we sold all the rights to the commercial
 9     broadcasters early on.  Many thinking Americans, he
10     said, have been trying to get those rights back for
11     decades.  Public broadcasting is a great treasure, a
12     national building asset, he said.  The public
13     broadcaster can resist censorship, including
14     self-censorship, more effectively than the commercial
15     broadcaster.  National public television and radio are
16     important.  Guard them both and don't give them up.
17  506                  Members of the Commission, don't let
18     us give them up.  There is nothing to replace them.
19     Without CBC radio and television, we would be without a
20     trans-Canada sea to sea to sea to 49th parallel
21     windbreak to protect us from being drifted over by a
22     blizzard of TV and radio from the United States.  The
23     satellite shower, I can watch on any clear evening
24     lying on my caribou skin on the north shore of the
25     Great Slave Lake.


 1  507                  That's it.
 2  508                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
 3  509                  MS PINSKY:  Whoever just read Mr.
 4     Bayly's statement, could you please state your name.
 5  510                  MS PETERS:  My name is Ann Peters.
 6  511                  MS PINSKY:  Thank you.
 7  512                  I would like to go back to Whitehorse
 8     for a moment.
 9  513                  Is a Mr. Roger Rondeau there?
10  514                  UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:  No, he is not
11     here.
12  515                  MS PINSKY:  Thank you.
13  516                  Has Ms Marianne Maltby returned in
14     Yellowknife?
15  517                  UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:  No, she
16     hasn't.
17  518                  MS PINSKY:  Is there anybody else? 
18     Let's go first to Inuvik.
19  519                  Is there anybody else in Inuvik who
20     would like to make a presentation?
21  520                  I think that is a "no".
22  521                  Is there anybody in Whitehorse?
23  522                  UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:  Is this going
24     to be it for people's chance?  I think some think there
25     may be another chance tonight.


 1  523                  MS PINSKY:  We had not scheduled
 2     anybody for this evening.
 3  524                  UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:  That is okay. 
 4     I think they thought there might be a chance tonight.
 5  525                  MS PINSKY:  Again I will ask in
 6     Whitehorse.  Is there anybody there who would like to
 7     make a presentation that hasn't already done so?
 8  526                  Is there anybody left in Yellowknife
 9     who would like to make a presentation that has not?
10  527                  UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:  All clear in
11     Yellowknife.
12                                                        1550
13  528                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  I would like to
14     call the CBC.
16  529                  MS WILSON:  Thank you, Commissioner
17     Grauer.  My name is Marie Wilson.  I am the Regional
18     Director of Radio and Television for CBC North.  That
19     is a region which serves the Yukon and the Northwest
20     Territories, as well as a couple of regions we have not
21     heard from today, including Arctic Quebec and the James
22     Bay Region of Northern Quebec as well; and of course
23     the soon to be Nunavut Territory which will be formed
24     from the Northwest Territories.
25  530                  I really want to thank the CRTC for


 1     making this opportunity for the North to participate in
 2     your community consultations, and I especially want to
 3     thank those northerners on the line -- and I hope you
 4     can hear me -- who have made the effort to come out
 5     today.  I think it takes a particular commitment to do
 6     it by telephone, where you don't have the benefit of
 7     being in the same room with us.  Thank you very much
 8     for your comments.
 9  531                  I have taken many notes here today
10     and listened very carefully to all that you have said. 
11     I very much appreciate your interest and your ownership
12     of the CBC, which of course belongs to all Canadians.
13  532                  There are a couple of points which I
14     would like to speak to.
15  533                  We will be following up to the
16     individuals to respond to any comments you have made. 
17     But I have a couple of points of precision that might
18     be helpful.
19  534                  The CBC North of course has been
20     affected by all the same challenges that affect all of
21     the regions of the CBC.  We also have some unique ones
22     of our very own.  We, like other parts of the CBC, have
23     to balance competing priorities and demands, but we
24     have to do that in a part of the country -- the top
25     one-third of all of Canada -- with far less resources


 1     than we used to have.  That is complicated by very big
 2     distances, very sparse populations and multiple
 3     languages.
 4  535                  For anyone who may not be aware, we
 5     actually do broadcast weekly in ten languages: English,
 6     French and eight aboriginal languages.  I say that, in
 7     part, in reference to Audrea Wulf's comments about the
 8     use of Slavey on North Beat.  It is always very
 9     difficult to balance language use in the North when we
10     have multiple audiences on any given broadcast.
11  536                  We do have, though, 100 hours a week
12     in eight aboriginal languages, so we are doing our best
13     to produce as much as we can in the various languages
14     of the North.
15  537                  The issue of signal coverage was also
16     mentioned a number of times here today.  It would be
17     far too complicated for me to speak to in just a few
18     words, but it is one of our great challenges.  We are
19     happy -- in response to Mr. Dent's comments about the
20     communities that have now grown to be over 500, we are
21     very glad that we will be able to take on that
22     responsibility.  We will also continue to provide
23     support as best we can to those smaller communities
24     that we are not assuming direct responsibility for, in
25     the same way that we have in the past; which is


 1     basically on an as resources allow basis and in
 2     response to emergencies as requested and on a recovery
 3     basis.
 4  538                  In regard to the Radio Two service
 5     that was mentioned a number of times, perhaps for the
 6     Yukon the best solution there would be to pursue the
 7     option that made that possible in Yellowknife.  I know
 8     there are very many satisfied Radio Two users in
 9     Yellowknife.
10  539                  Several people mentioned the cutbacks
11     to CBC North.  I think it is important to acknowledge
12     that while we are a huge region of Canada -- we say it
13     is a great north but it needs editing -- we do receive,
14     because of our sparse population far more money from
15     the CBC per capita than any other region of the
16     country, given the geography and the incredible costs
17     of doing business there.  We can't lose site of that.
18  540                  We will certainly continue to do the
19     best we can with those resources, taking all of the
20     very useful comments from today into account.
21  541                  I thank you all very much for your
22     participation and your suggestions.
23  542                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Before we terminate
24     the teleconference link, I would like to thank all of
25     you, as well, who have come out to Inuvik, Yellowknife


 1     and Whitehorse.  It is very important to our
 2     deliberations, with respect to the licence renewal, to
 3     hear from all Canadians; but in particular the unique
 4     perspectives of those of you north of sixty are very
 5     helpful, and I want to reiterate how much we appreciate
 6     you taking the time.
 7  543                  I also want to remind everyone that
 8     we will have a Public Notice going out at the end of
 9     this month with respect to the May 25th hearing in
10     Hull, and the deadline for written submissions is April
11     30th.  I invite anybody who has anything additional
12     they would like to say, or any other friends,
13     neighbours in the North, to please file a submission.
14  544                  I think you all very much.  Good
15     afternoon.
16  545                  MS PINSKY:  Perhaps all of those who
17     are present in the room who will be making a
18     presentation can join us at the table and take a seat.
19  546                  In fact, we do have many seats
20     available, so anybody else who wants to take a seat at
21     the table is welcome.
22     --- Pause / Pause
24  547                  MME PINSKY:  Le prochain intervenant
25     est M. Maurice Morin.


 1  548                  M. MORIN:  Alors bonjour.  Je suis le
 2     président du conseil d'administration d'Oniric qui
 3     regroupe des intervenants dont le but commun est de
 4     créer un environnement qui promouvoit l'entreprenariat
 5     chez les francophones de l'ouest canadien dans le
 6     domaine des médias numériques.
 7  549                  Alors notre conseil d'administration
 8     est composé de professionnels du monde des nouveaux
 9     médias et du secteur de l'éducation provenant des
10     différentes provinces de l'ouest, que ce soit la
11     Colombie-Britannique, l'Alberta, la Saskatchewan ou le
12     Manitoba.  Le territoire que couvre Oniric comprend
13     également le Yukon et les territoires.
14  550                  Ce que je dois vous dire c'est que
15     plutôt que d'être une association, on est une
16     corporation de développement et d'après nos revenus on
17     se situerait parmi les premiers dix producteurs
18     indépendants de contenu canadien de langue française. 
19     Tout cela se fait à partir de l'ouest et on se trouve à
20     créer de l'emploi pour environ 55 à 60 personnes -- du
21     moins c'est ce que reflètent nos activités de cette
22     année.
23  551                  La Société Radio-Canada a joué un
24     rôle essentiel tout au long de l'histoire des
25     communautés des francophones de l'ouest dans le soutien


 1     au développement des communautés francophones, que ce
 2     soit en fournissant des services d'informations, en
 3     produisant des programmes culturels ou en procurant aux
 4     francophones de ces régions un lieu d'expression et un
 5     outil de rassemblement.
 6  552                  Alors si nous venons présenter notre
 7     point de vue c'est que nos stratégies de développement
 8     reposent sur trois éléments principaux qui
 9     s'harmonisent avec la vision et le mandat élargi de
10     Radio-Canada dans nos régions.
11  553                  Nous voulons, en effet, privilégier
12     la formation et l'éducation des jeunes de nos provinces
13     et territoires, particulièrement dans le domaine des
14     nouveaux médias, en vue d'assurer une relève qui sera à
15     même d'intervenir en région dans la préparation de
16     nouveaux contenus et la mise en place de technologies
17     répondant au besoin de nos communautés.
18  554                  Fournir aux jeunes entrepreneurs
19     francophones de l'ouest des occasions de travailler et
20     de se perfectionner en français en nouveaux médias dans
21     un environnement professionnel alors que les occasions
22     d'emplois au sein des grandes institutions d'État
23     deviennent de plus en plus limitées.  Ce sera aussi
24     pour eux l'occasion de développer des produits dans les
25     deux langues officielles du pays et pourquoi pas le


 1     faire à partir de l'ouest?
 2  555                  Finalement, permettre aux détenteurs
 3     de droits d'auteurs du domaine culturel de diffuser ces
 4     oeuvres dans les nouveaux médias.  Alors les nouvelles
 5     technologies en média numérique évoluent à une vitesse
 6     étourdissante.  On les perçoits comme la nouvelle voix 
 7     d'avenir pour la francophonie mondiale.  Il ne faudrait
 8     pas, cependant, que les responsables politiques et les
 9     décisions du CRTC oublient l'histoire des médias et que
10     leur leadership s'en inspire.
11  556                  Le premier ministre du Canada annonce
12     aujourd'hui, d'après les médias, le lancement de
13     l'année de la francophonie.  Cette déclaration
14     politique nationale sera soulignée, notamment, par deux
15     événements dont le CRTC est en grande partie
16     responsable:  la création d'un réseau national de la
17     chaîne française TVA et des radios communautaires
18     francophones à travers le pays -- et je parle des
19     radios communautaires de langue française qu'on peut
20     retrouver un peu partout, y compris ici en Alberta,
21     dans le nord de l'Alberta.
22  557                  Alors, ce sont des événements
23     remarquables, voire même historiques, une influence
24     directe des technologies qui transforment notre paysage
25     audiovisuel et culturel.  Mais regardons l'évolution


 1     qui nous a amenés à ces résultats.
 2  558                  Selon ma compréhension de vos
 3     politiques et de la réglementation, depuis les trois
 4     dernières décennies le CRTC s'est guidé dans ses
 5     décisions sur deux grands principes:  le droit des
 6     Canadiens et Canadiennes des deux langues officielles à
 7     un accès à la radio et à la télévision publique partout
 8     au pays et le second principe énoncé avec l'avènement
 9     de la câblodistribution canadienne est celui de l'accès
10     du citoyen au choix et singulièrement aux chaînes de
11     leur pays, une manière directe de privilégier l'accès à
12     un nouveau contenu canadien.
13  559                  Or l'histoire nous montre que les
14     communautés francophones ont dû se battre pour que les
15     câblodistributeurs et les télédiffuseurs privés offrent
16     ces services en région et que les politiciens ne
17     respectent pas tout l'esprit de la loi sur la
18     radiodiffusion canadienne afin que la Société
19     Radio-Canada puisse être présente partout au Canada.
20  560                  Aujourd'hui même on peut dire que les
21     communautés francophones voient encore une certaine
22     traînée de la patte et doivent revendiquer, localité
23     par localité, pour que ces engagements de base soient
24     respectés, une situation qui n'annonce rien de mieux
25     que de nouvelles batailles.


 1  561                  Enfin, avec les réductions
 2     budgétaires de la Société Radio-Canada, tout
 3     professionnel de médias sait que les contraintes de
 4     financement peuvent imposer des limites inacceptables à
 5     la création originale et, à mon avis, c'est cela la
 6     tragédie qui entraîne l'asphyxie financière de la
 7     Société Radio-Canada.
 8  562                  A toute fin pratique, les membres du
 9     CRTC doivent poser un regard lucide sur l'histoire des
10     communautés face à l'application des deux principes
11     directeurs qui les ont guidés au cours des dernières
12     décennies:  l'accès à la radio et à la télévision doit
13     s'amarrer aux habitudes culturelles que nous souhaitons
14     encourager dans le développement et l'épanouissement
15     des communautés.
16  563                  Le choix et l'accès à un choix
17     doivent être basés sur la qualité, le reflet, la
18     pertinence et la proximité du communicateur avec son
19     auditoire.  Cette part d'influence et de pouvoirs que
20     vous exercez est tout aussi importante dans les
21     nouveaux médias -- par exemple, dans la position que
22     vous pourriez prendre face aux compagnies téléphoniques
23     ou les compagnies qui veulent profiter, finalement, des
24     nouvelles technologies dans le secteur sur le réseau
25     Internet -- il y a certainement beaucoup de place à ce


 1     niveau-là pour prendre des décisions qui vont
 2     encourager le développement d'entreprises comme les
 3     nôtres et puis ensuite elle est importante également
 4     pour les médias traditionnels -- et doit jouer en
 5     faveur d'un meilleur avenir mais, également, en tenant
 6     compte des réussites du passé.
 7  564                  Alors c'est pourquoi l'enracinement
 8     de Radio-Canada dans la communauté et sa présence
 9     continue et renforcée dans nos régions sont
10     indispensables si la Société veut baser son
11     intervention, tel qu'elle se doit, sur une connaissance
12     approfondie de la spécificité, des intérêts et des
13     aspirations des francophones de l'ouest.
14  565                  Alors, c'est avec plaisir et avec ces
15     espoirs que nous déposerons ce mémoire en appuyant le
16     renouvellement des licences de la Société Radio-Canada,
17     ici en Alberta, et dans les autres provinces et,
18     naturellement, dans les territoires, si le cas se
19     présentait.
20  566                  Merci.
21  567                  LA PRÉSIDENTE:  Merci beaucoup
22     Monsieur Morin.
23  568                  MS PINSKY:  The next presenter is Ms
24     Dawn Green-Shelton.


 1  569                  MS GREEN-SHELTON:  Good afternoon. 
 2     My name is Dawn Green-Shelton, and I have never before
 3     made a presentation of any kind to a commission or a
 4     public meeting, but when I heard that the CRTC was
 5     coming to Edmonton to hear Canadians' opinions on the
 6     CBC, I felt really compelled to act.
 7  570                  First, I have a confession to make;
 8     and that is that I am a CBC radio addict.  It is
 9     important that you know that my presentation will be
10     totally biased.
11  571                  My radio is, quite simply, never
12     tuned to anything but CBC, and quite frankly there is
13     nothing else that is worth listening to.
14  572                  I will speak to CBC radio
15     exclusively, because I watch almost no television.
16  573                  I would guess that I am an acutely
17     average CBC listener.  I am 37 years old.  I am
18     married.  I own my own home.  I work fulltime.  I have
19     two children, a university degree, and a keen interest
20     in learning.
21  574                  For the past couple of weeks since I
22     signed up, I have asked several people who I like and
23     respect whether they listen to CBC, and the answers
24     were mixed: some listen and some don't; some don't like
25     the music; others don't like all the talking; some


 1     don't like the political viewpoint of the CBC.
 2  575                  But the those who do listen regularly
 3     really like the newscasts, the music, the topical
 4     updates on Canadian cultural issues, and the sheer
 5     variety of the programming.
 6  576                  To me, the most interesting and the
 7     most poignant observation from this exercise is that
 8     not one person that I spoke to who is younger than me
 9     listens to the CBC.
10  577                  CBC radio is the only national
11     broadcaster when it comes to radio.  I value the range
12     of the news that I get from St. John's to Iqaluit.  The
13     reports have depth and substance.  This is not what I
14     get from other radio stations, which is exactly why I
15     stopped listening to them.
16  578                  I enjoy the regional nature of the
17     CBC.  The local Radio One station does an excellent job
18     of promoting local cultural events and broadcasting
19     local talent.  For weeks I have been reflecting on why
20     I am a CBC radio addict, and I have come to the
21     conclusion that it was because I was raised listening
22     to the CBC.
23  579                  I grew up listening to Gilmour's
24     Albums, This Country in the Morning and As It Happens. 
25     I am sure you know that are plenty of studies that


 1     indicate that if you are exposed to an art form -- for
 2     example, opera -- when you are young, you are far more
 3     likely to attend the opera as an adult.
 4  580                  So where is the next generation of
 5     CBC listeners going to come from?  Is there a way that
 6     CBC can develop a station or something that would
 7     target younger listeners?
 8  581                  The classical bent that CBC has turns
 9     off the vast majority of younger listeners.  What they
10     want to know is what is important to their lives.  I
11     would suspect that their list of interests would not
12     include an in-depth report on the latest developments
13     in NORAD or the price of coffee in Antigua.  These
14     young people do not see CBC radio as being relevant to
15     their lives in any way, and this must change.
16  582                  The CBC has been masters of change. 
17     Is a Radio Three possible?  I certainly hope so, and
18     the future of CBC radio depends on it.
19  583                  Thank you.
20  584                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Ms
21     Green-Shelton.
22  585                  MS PINSKY:  The next presenter is Mr.
23     Alain François.
25  586                  M. FRANÇOIS:  Bonjour.  J'ai été


 1     invité comme à la dernière minute.  C'est juste pour
 2     parler de Radio-Canada.
 3  587                  On est une famille de trois.  On
 4     écoute la radio, on se réveille le matin en écoutant la
 5     radio en français.  On écoute les nouvelles en
 6     français, on écoute la télévision en français.  On aime
 7     avoir les informations venant de Radio-Canada qui
 8     viennent d'un océan à l'autre.  On aime savoir ce qui
 9     se passe de Vancouver jusqu'à Bathurst -- on a de la
10     famille un peu partout au pays.
11  588                  Ce qui est intéressant avec
12     Radio-Canada c'est qu'ils nous tiennent informés et non
13     pas juste comme d'autres stations de radio ou de
14     télévision qui sont juste centrées sur elles-mêmes, sur
15     la petite ville.  Ce qui est important avec
16     Radio-Canada c'est qu'ils nous tiennent informés de
17     tout ce qui se passe, autant température qu'événements
18     politiques et sociaux.
19  589                  Ce qu'on aime aussi ce sont les
20     émissions pour les jeunes.  J'ai un petit garçon, il
21     aime bien les émissions à la télévision faites ici
22     comme celles qui sont faites à Montréal, naturellement. 
23     Quand je fais juste changer de poste, il me demande
24     souvent de retourner en français parce qu'il veut
25     écouter les émissions en français.


 1  590                  Ce qui est bon et ce qui devrait
 2     continuer c'est de voir des émissions faites ici pour
 3     les jeunes pour essayer de motiver les francophones ici
 4     à grandir en français et non pas perdre la langue,
 5     parce que souvent ça va tellement vite.  On le voit
 6     souvent dans les écoles, ça ne prend pas de temps.  Mon
 7     épouse est enseignante donc elle le sait, elle l'a vu.
 8  591                  Donc, s'ils peuvent continuer à avoir
 9     des émissions faites ici pour les jeunes comme ça ils
10     pourront garder leur langue maternelle.  On espère
11     qu'on ne sera pas mis de côté ou oubliés.  On va
12     sûrement travailler là-dessus -- à ce que Radio-Canada
13     soit toujours là, autant à la radio qu'à la télévision. 
14     C'est tout.
15  592                  Merci bien.
16  593                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
17     François.
18  594                  MS PINSKY:  Ms Caroline Nielsen is
19     the next presenter.
21  595                  MS NIELSEN:  Hi.  I received a phone
22     call.  I just want to say that I have been a CBC radio
23     fan for many years.  It is disappointing to hear that
24     there is even a consideration that it would be no
25     longer a constant.


 1  596                  Being originally from the Maritimes,
 2     P.E.I specifically, it keeps me in touch from the real
 3     people back home.  Real people who I love to hear from
 4     on the CBC, not only the Maritimes, but it is
 5     interesting to hear from people in Vancouver right
 6     across to Newfoundland.  To hear from people in each
 7     province makes us realize how alike we all are and how
 8     we are different; also how different doesn't always
 9     mean wrong.
10  597                  The money spent is not wasted.  It is
11     minor in comparison to other moneys spent in the
12     government.  I feel strongly that we should continue to
13     support the CBC.
14  598                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Ms
15     Nielsen.
16  599                  MME PINSKY:  M. Yves Caron est le
17     prochain intervenant.
19  600                  M. CARON:  Bonjour.  Moi aussi j'ai
20     vu qu'il y avait des audiences.  On m'a invité à venir
21     donner une opinion à propos de Radio-Canada et de
22     l'influence que cette station peut avoir à la fois du
23     côté du travail que je fais et puis aussi du côté de la
24     communauté dans laquelle j'habite qui est la communauté
25     francophone ici en Alberta.


 1  601                  Moi je viens du Québec mais ça fait
 2     15 ans que j'habite en Alberta.  J'ai deux enfants qui
 3     ont 13 et 11 ans et je dirais que Radio-Canada est une
 4     part importante pour eux pour garder leur langue, pour
 5     apprendre d'abord le français qui est quand même leur
 6     langue première même s'ils ont toujours habité ici en
 7     Alberta.
 8  602                  Donc, les émissions pour enfants
 9     c'était quelque chose de très important ainsi que la
10     lecture en français qu'on pouvait leur fournir et,
11     évidemment, le système scolaire qui est venu appuyer
12     tout cela.
13  603                  Toujours est-il que Radio-Canada est
14     un élément très important de leur culture.  Ça a donc
15     fourni à leur culture, ça leur a permis de voir le pays
16     qui est le Canada comme étant vraiment un pays qui
17     pouvait accueillir à la fois le français et l'anglais
18     comme deux langues officielles.  Donc ça c'est une
19     chose.
20  604                  De l'autre côté, je travaille depuis
21     plusieurs années avec des artistes.  Je suis un
22     producteur d'événements artistiques en français, ici en
23     Alberta, et puis on monte des partenariats au niveau de
24     l'ouest parce qu'en français les marchés sont petits et
25     les artistes ont de la difficulté à faire des


 1     productions de haute qualité et réussir à les diffuser
 2     seulement dans nos petites communautés dans l'ouest et
 3     ils n'arriveraient pas à survivre de leur art.
 4  605                  Donc, on monte des partenariats et
 5     Radio-Canada a été un partenaire sur plusieurs années
 6     dans, entre autres, les événements de la chanson,
 7     autour de la chanson française comme un diffuseur
 8     important et on espère pouvoir toujours avoir
 9     Radio-Canada comme partenaire lorsque c'est le temps de
10     diffuser la culture des gens d'ici et d'avoir,
11     évidement, du temps d'antenne qui vient d'ici pour
12     montrer la culture des gens d'ici.
13  606                  C'est une difficulté parce que,
14     évidemment, c'est difficile pour nous d'être vus à
15     l'échelle nationale.  On a plusieurs artistes qui
16     voudraient sortir puis être vus à l'échelle nationale,
17     soit à la télévision ou soit à la radio.  Nous, on
18     reçoit beaucoup d'émissions qui portent sur les
19     artistes du Québec, et plus spécifiquement de Montréal,
20     mais nous on a de la difficulté à faire voir nos
21     artistes à l'extérieur et on espère qu'un jour
22     Radio-Canada pourra être vraiment le reflet mais dans
23     les deux sens.
24  607                  Nous on voit beaucoup la production
25     artistique québécoise ici mais nos artistes ont


 1     toujours de la difficulté à se faire voir ou se faire
 2     entendre par l'intermédiaire de Radio-Canada à travers
 3     le pays et surtout -- moi ça fait 15 ans que je
 4     travaille dans le domaine artistique ici en Alberta --
 5     et maintenant on sent, depuis les quatre dernières
 6     années, une émergence artistique très contemporaine,
 7     très moderne qui aurait sa place pour concurrencer à
 8     l'échelle nationale mais les artistes doivent déménager
 9     pour joindre les rangs de l'industrie plus au Québec,
10     notamment, mais plusieurs restent ici et voudraient
11     rester ici et Radio-Canada est un des seuls canaux en
12     ce moment qu'on aurait pour être diffusé et on espère
13     que dans les renouvellements de licences -- j'imagine
14     qu'on est ici pour ça, je n'ai jamais participé à des
15     audiences du CRTC comme ça -- mais on espère que ce
16     canal-là va pouvoir être offert dans l'avenir.
17  608                  On a entendu parler du Canal des arts
18     qui semblait dire qu'on pourrait permettre à des
19     producteurs indépendants de proposer des projets ici et
20     qu'ils seraient diffusés à travers ce Canal des arts. 
21     En ce moment c'est très difficile pour un producteur
22     d'événements d'avoir des ententes avec Radio-Canada et
23     de pouvoir avoir des licences de diffusion des
24     productions artistiques faites ici et on espère que,
25     dans l'avenir, ce sera possible que ça se fasse plus


 1     facilement que présentement.
 2  609                  C'est un peu le message que j'avais à
 3     livrer.  Évidement, au nom des artistes qu'on
 4     représente, au nom des productions artistiques qu'on
 5     fait, on appuie, évidement, le renouvellement de
 6     licence de Radio-Canada.
 7  610                  Merci.
 8  611                  LA PRÉSIDENTE:  Merci beaucoup,
 9     Monsieur Caron.
10  612                  M. CARON:  Merci.
11  613                  MME PINSKY:  Juste pour préciser
12     c'est que ce n'est pas exactement une audience publique
13     par rapport au renouvellement.  On est ici pour une
14     consultation publique sur les questions générales du
15     mandat du CBC-SRC, et cetera, et à la fin du mois de
16     mars on va annoncer la procédure pour le renouvellement
17     des licences du SRC donc, si vous voulez, vous pouvez
18     déposer une intervention écrite avant le 30 avril.
19  614                  The next presenter is Ms Alison
20     Dinwoodie.
22  615                  MS DINWOODIE:  Thank you for this
23     opportunity to speak about the CBC.  I want to be one
24     of, I hope, many people who are making up a strong
25     voice to make sure that we are heard for CBC radio.


 1  616                  I am one of the probably few people
 2     who don't own a television, and I never have done.  So
 3     I am not addressing television.  But some of the
 4     general comments probably apply to it.  I am going to
 5     talk about radio.
 6  617                  I think you have probably heard a lot
 7     of the statements that I am going to make, but perhaps
 8     the slow dripping of water on the hard stone of
 9     government might get some action.
10  618                  CBC is a public broadcasting service
11     and it must therefore be funded adequately by the
12     government.  I am very tired about the constant whine
13     about cutting taxes, and there should be more
14     commitment to putting taxpayers' dollars to the
15     services that Canadians really value.
16  619                  We have seen some dollars coming back
17     to Health and Social Services because of all the
18     outcry, but services which are most frequently
19     identified as Canada's prime assets are the CBC and its
20     national parks.  Both of these have been starved of
21     essential dollars for the last several years.  This
22     must be reversed.  There must be no more cuts to the
23     CBC.
24  620                  The CBC administration and
25     programming must be independent of government


 1     manipulation and free of private sector influence. 
 2     Media are dangerously concentrated in near monopoly
 3     hands, as can already been seen by the brainwashing by
 4     the right wing publications and pundits on cutting
 5     taxes.
 6  621                  We hear nothing about cutting taxes. 
 7     We hear a certain amount services required, but people
 8     don't seem to be able to put the two together.  This is
 9     going to become even more important in the coming
10     century when power is increasingly being concentrated
11     in very few hands.
12  622                  The public has a right to freedom of
13     information, and that means letting different views be
14     aired and not just government propaganda or private
15     industry's vested interests.  There must be different
16     points of view held.
17  623                  One example of the way we are heading
18     is when you get the Premier of Alberta complaining to
19     the University that they are not promoting his ideas. 
20     I think we are going for a very dangerous situation
21     unless a really free radio can be maintained.
22  624                  The government should not abrogate
23     its duties for funding to private industry.  One of the
24     joys and the qualities of CBC is that it doesn't carry
25     these intensely annoying advertisements which totally


 1     destroy the listening experience.
 2  625                  So I would plead that we continue to
 3     have a radio that does not have ads interrupting
 4     everything.
 5  626                  CBC radio is a talk show, and there
 6     is nothing else out there for Canadians.  You can
 7     listen at any time of the day, more or less, to any
 8     sort of music but only on CBC can you hear informed
 9     discussion of events, both across the country,
10     regionally and locally, plus many other interesting
11     talks.
12  627                  All these aspects are essential to
13     give Canadians a proper perspective on what is
14     happening in their country.  We must have a continued
15     source of informed discussion, which is available to
16     Canadians, as I say, locally and in the distant parts
17     of the far north, or wherever.
18  628                  I am not mentioning any specific
19     programs, because I think most of them have already
20     been mentioned.  But it says a lot for CBC that they
21     have so many high quality programs, or perhaps maybe
22     one can qualify and say they had many good programs. 
23     With all the cutbacks, I am afraid the quality is
24     deteriorating.
25  629                  The talk of centralizing the news I


 1     think will be nothing but a disaster.  The technicians'
 2     strike has been a good demonstration of the drop in
 3     listenability, if you like, when there is no good
 4     regional coverage.  They have been trying to do what
 5     they can to cover it, but it is definitely not adequate
 6     at the present time.
 7  630                  Western Canada has its own interests.
 8     These have nothing to do with eastern events, and vice
 9     versa.  Yes, we want national programs where you can
10     hear what is happening in Newfoundland or B.C., but we
11     don't want to have it mixed up with all the daily news.
12  631                  So we do need local and regional
13     programs for the listening public.
14  632                  CBC commissioning of concerts, plays
15     and other events is essential for promoting Canadian
16     culture and identity.  This wide variety, which is
17     unmatched and unmatchable by any other source, gives
18     Canadians opportunities and exposure to the vivid life
19     of our nation.
20  633                  So I would say long live radio arts.
21  634                  CBC radio plays an important role in
22     the daily living for many people:  blind people or
23     elderly people who can't watch television; truck
24     drivers on the road; housewives doing the ironing;
25     workers in repetitive jobs; if you are driving to and


 1     from work.  You turn on the radio and you have a friend
 2     to listen to help you through the daily drudgery and
 3     loneliness.
 4  635                  People can also contribute in the
 5     phone-in shows.  They feel that they are involved, that
 6     the radio show belongs to them.  And so undubiously 
 7     you can absorb all sorts of fascinating bits of
 8     information that you would never dream of listening to
 9     deliberately.  Politicians and executives are probably
10     too busy to listen to radio, so they really have no
11     understanding of this mine of information and enjoyment
12     that is out there.  Radio is everybody's friend.
13  636                  Finally, radio is an essential
14     communication in emergencies.  Other services may be
15     non-functioning, but radio can usually transmit
16     essential and timely instructions and information. 
17     Even if it is just telling you what the road conditions
18     are like.  You don't really care what is happening out
19     on the Ontario roads, but you do want to know what is
20     happening on Highway 16.
21  637                  I think I was particularly impressed
22     by Peter Gzowski's treatment of the Manitoba flood. 
23     This gave a really heartfelt experience to everybody
24     across the country.
25  638                  While there was a sympathetic


 1     treatment of the ice storm, I didn't get the same
 2     feeling of everybody being involved.  Again, I think
 3     this was because we were seeing the slow slide to
 4     mediocrity of all of the services caused by downsizing.
 5  639                  As I say, radio, and the public radio
 6     that you can depend on, is an essential public service
 7     in emergencies.
 8  640                  CBC radio was doing a good job, but
 9     without proper long-term funding it won't be able to
10     carry on.  It has to be able to provide an essential
11     public service in the future, provided the rot hasn't
12     got too far.  It is so easy to destroy something that
13     has taken years to build up.
14  641                  I plead with the CRTC to make sure
15     that this doesn't happen.
16  642                  I find it kind of pathetic that the
17     Prime Minister is so insecure that he penalizes a fine
18     institution because of petty vendettas.  I gather that
19     this is one of the main causes of some of the really
20     hard cutbacks in the CBC.
21  643                  Canadians deserve better, and I hope
22     that the CRTC makes the necessary recommendations for
23     the CBC to continue doing its job into the next
24     century.
25  644                  Thank you for this opportunity to


 1     speak.
 2  645                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Ms
 3     Dinwoodie.
 4  646                  MS PINSKY:  Ms Hazel Wilson is the
 5     next presenter.
 7  647                  MS WILSON:  Thank you for this
 8     opportunity.  I have been waiting all afternoon because
 9     of a mishap in communication.
10  648                  I too support the need for public
11     broadcasting, and I guess I am not saying anything new
12     that you have not heard this afternoon, but maybe in a
13     different way.
14  649                  I urge the CRTC to protect the CBC
15     from the many influences that are impinging adversely
16     on its operations.  In doing so, I hope you can
17     convince the government that there are many of us who
18     consider public broadcasting an essential service that
19     should be supported, both politically and financially.
20  650                  There are factors that impinge
21     adversely on operations.  The first is lack of
22     finances.
23  651                  Please inform the government that CBC 
24     needs more funds if it is to fulfil its mandate.  For
25     the past month or more I have been deprived of many of


 1     the television and radio programs that I depend upon
 2     for information, discussion and insight.  For some time
 3     local news and other local programs have been reduced
 4     due, in large part, to fewer staff.  The plans to
 5     centralize radio and television news has already
 6     affected radio news coverage, to radio's loss and our
 7     loss.
 8  652                  The CRTC needs to ensure the
 9     independence of CBC radio and television.
10  653                  The second adverse influence is the
11     current ideology that privatization is the answer to
12     all our ills.  Canada has been built on the belief that
13     public leadership is effective in reaching long-term
14     goals.  Public leadership is committed to the public
15     good and not to market values.  No aspect of the CBC
16     should be privatized.
17  654                  The third influence is political
18     ideology.  A public broadcasting system should be
19     insulated from political considerations.  Currently,
20     the CBC is supposed to be at arm's length from the
21     government, but the Prime Minister's responsibility to
22     appoint the president and the board of directors
23     suggests and provides the opportunity for political
24     interference.  It seems that the time has come to
25     structure the CBC organization so that the president


 1     and board of directors resemble a crown corporation and
 2     are responsible to Parliament.
 3  655                  Fourth is advertising influence. 
 4     Please, no advertising on CBC radio, and decrease the
 5     dependency of television on advertising as a source of
 6     revenue.  Viewers are subjected to far too much that is
 7     meaningless, some of it incomprehensible and most of it
 8     a waste of time.
 9  656                  The need for change.  I understand
10     the CBC is considering expansion and change.  Change is
11     necessary as times change, but new services should have
12     their own funding.  They should not be developed at the
13     expense of current programs.  We have already
14     experienced considerable reduction in local services,
15     and just recently CBC announced reduction in the number
16     of foreign correspondents reporting from around the
17     world.  Where else are we going to get the knowledge of
18     the world that is provided by foreign correspondents?
19  657                  As you can see, I am an elderly
20     woman.  I am a CBC listener and viewer.  I listen to
21     CBC radio before I get out of bed in the morning, and
22     it is the last thing I listen to at night and perhaps
23     during the middle of the night.  I also watch selected
24     CBC and Newsworld programs.
25  658                  Please protect the existence and the


 1     integrity of CBC.
 2  659                  Thank you.
 3  660                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 4     much.
 5  661                  MME PINSKY:  La prochaine
 6     intervenante c'est Mmm Lisette Villeneuve.
 8  662                  MME VILLENEUVE:  Bonjour. 
 9     L'Association canadienne française de l'Alberta est
10     heureuse de comparaître devant vous aujourd'hui pour
11     participer à votre consultation concernant le
12     renouvellement du permis d'exploitation de la Société
13     Radio-Canada.
14  663                  Permettez-nous, tout d'abord, de vous
15     rappeler qu'il y a un peu plus de 50 ans vos
16     prédécesseurs acceptaient notre demande de permis
17     d'exploitation d'une radio française en Alberta.  A
18     cette époque, l'ACFA se lançait donc dans la grande
19     aventure de la radio.  Nous avons vendu CHFA à la
20     Société Radio-Canada en 1974.  Vous comprendrez que
21     notre attachement à nos institutions de communications
22     de langue française sont à la mesure de notre soutien à
23     la cause de la survie française dans l'ouest.
24  664                  Plus de 178 500 personnes parlent le
25     français et l'anglais dans notre province. 


 1     Contrairement à beaucoup d'idées reçues, la Société
 2     Radio-Canada a donc en Alberta un public croissant qui
 3     a soif de la culture française.
 4  665                  La création cette semaine d'un
 5     secrétariat aux affaires francophones par le
 6     gouvernement de l'Alberta vient témoigner de cet
 7     intérêt accru.  C'est pourquoi les services de
 8     Radio-Canada sont si essentiels pour nous.  Au-delà des
 9     distances qui nous séparent et qui constituent à la
10     fois un attrait et un obstacle à surmonter au Canada,
11     le défi de faire voyager la langue française est
12     devenu, au fil des ans, un défi que nous relevons
13     chaque jour avec succès.
14  666                  C'est pourquoi nous saluons les
15     initiatives de la Société Radio-Canada en matière de
16     diffusion d'émissions telles que Tournée d'Amérique et
17     L'Accent francophone.  Il nous semble que c'est une
18     orientation à laquelle la Société Radio-Canada doit
19     accorder plus d'énergie et plus de ressources.
20  667                  La contribution des stations
21     régionales se doit d'être plus importante et pour cela
22     les budgets de ces stations doivent être augmentés.
23  668                  Les compressions budgétaires de la
24     Société Radio-Canada ont sérieusement affecté nos
25     stations.  Les artisans et artisanes de la Société


 1     Radio-Canada font un travail colossal et nous tenons à
 2     leur rendre hommage aujourd'hui car leurs moyens sont
 3     limités, particulièrement aux réseaux français, et ils
 4     font preuve d'un grand dévouement.
 5  669                  La Société Radio-Canada doit aussi
 6     absolument conserver ses stations régionales dans
 7     toutes les provinces de l'ouest.  Nous nous opposons
 8     vigoureusement à tout projet de fusion ou de
 9     remplacement des stations par des bureaux.
10  670                  Toute diminution des services est
11     inacceptable.  Le mandat de la Société Radio-Canada est
12     de desservir toute la population canadienne de façon
13     équitable dans les deux langues officielles.
14  671                  Je voudrais d'ailleurs signaler ici
15     l'importance pour la Société Radio-Canada d'améliorer
16     ses services à Calgary.  Nos concitoyens de langue
17     anglaise ont vu leur service être rétabli après
18     compressions budgétaires.
19  672                  En raison du conflit de travail à la
20     RSC, nous devons nous contenter de bulletins nouvelles
21     de Montréal comme le Montréal ce soir.
22  673                  Nous ne pouvons que constater, comme
23     le font d'ailleurs les citoyens vivant en région au
24     Québec, l'omniprésence du contenu montréalais en onde.
25  674                  Nous joignons donc notre voix à celle


 1     des autres francophones du pays pour souligner une plus
 2     grande présence de toute la francophonie canadienne
 3     dans ces émissions.  Nous demandons donc au CRTC
 4     d'exiger de la Société Radio-Canada la création de
 5     comités aviseurs chargés de faire des recommandations
 6     au conseil d'administration de la Société Radio-Canada.
 7  675                  Il est important que la Société
 8     Radio-Canada soit dotée d'un budget pluriannuel mais il
 9     faut aussi nous assurer que les sommes versées
10     répondent à des priorités.
11  676                  La Société Radio-Canada nous consulte
12     régulièrement sur sa programmation, sur notre
13     satisfaction par rapport à ses services, mais nous
14     voyons trop rarement nos préoccupations faire l'objet
15     de suivi concret.
16  677                  Il ne s'agit pas ici de s'ingérer
17     dans la politique journalistique de Radio-Canada, mais
18     plutôt de créer un mécanisme permanent pour s'assurer
19     d'un canal de communications directes avec le conseil
20     d'administration.
21  678                  Nous sommes confiants qu'avec la
22     participation de la Société Radio-Canada et de ses
23     dirigeants nous pouvons créer un comité qui
24     constituerait un forum de discussions important pour
25     notre société d'État.


 1  679                  La Société Radio-Canada envisage
 2     toujours de nouvelles entreprises de programmation, par
 3     exemple l'amélioration des services aux francophones
 4     hors Québec, pouvait-on lire dans le document Mission,
 5     Valeurs, Principes et Objectifs.  Il est temps de
 6     passer de la parole aux actes.
 7  680                  Nous sommes très inquiets des rumeurs
 8     de privatisation de la Société qui épisodiquement
 9     refont surface.  Soyons clairs:  la société canadienne
10     a besoin de la Société Radio-Canada.
11  681                  Je reprendrai ici les mots de la
12     chancelière de l'Université de l'Alberta:  nous n'avons
13     pas les moyens, comme société, de nous priver de la
14     Société Radio-Canada.
15  682                  Merci de m'avoir écoutée.
16  683                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Madame
17     Villeneuve.
18  684                  MS PINSKY:  Is there anyone else in
19     the room who would like to make a presentation?
20     --- No response / Pas de réponse
21  685                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  We will take a
22     five-minute break and see if there is anyone else.
23     --- Recess at 1630 / Suspension à 1630
24     --- Upon resuming at 1640 / Reprise à 1640
25  686                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Please proceed.


 2  687                  MR. BALCON:  Good afternoon.  My name
 3     is David Balcon.  I am appearing this afternoon. I was
 4     originally scheduled in the other room, but I thank you
 5     for hearing me here.  Maybe it is a little more
 6     appropriate that I am here, because some of my remarks
 7     will deal with a couple of the CBC people who are here
 8     in the room.
 9  688                  And I am not trying to terrify them.
10     There are good things that I am going to say about
11     them.
12  689                  A little bit of background.  I
13     currently have a split personality in one sense,
14     because I have two businesses, one of which is survey
15     market research, the other is film production.  The
16     independent film production industry in Alberta has
17     been on tenterhooks for a while, so a lot of us have
18     had to do other things.
19  690                  I am not exactly moonlighting,
20     because I started my career almost 35 years ago as a
21     producer of and working at CBC television in Toronto. 
22     I went to university and came out.  There weren't very
23     many jobs in the creative sector in the early 1970s
24     that were outside of institutions.  I spent two years
25     at TVOntario and then was asked to come to the CRTC in


 1     the days of Harry Boyle and Pierre Juneau.
 2  691                  So from 1972 to 1980 I was a staff
 3     member in the Research Branch of the CRTC and lived
 4     through the process of the first CBC renewal hearing
 5     that was ever held in public and was part of crafting
 6     that decision with the Commissioners, of course, and
 7     staff that suggested maybe the CBC should remodel
 8     itself rather radically.  It became known as the PBS
 9     North model.  I am not selling that model here today.
10  692                  I was also a staff member working on
11     another committee, the Boyle Committee, which looked at
12     the question of whether the CBC was a subversive agency
13     in promoting separatist ideas in Quebec.  Some of these
14     themes are coming back again, as we have heard some
15     suspicions in Ottawa that some controls are being put
16     on CBC journalism.
17  693                  I left Ottawa and went to Montreal
18     for two years at the National Film Board, and then
19     moved out to Alberta in 1982 and have lived here ever
20     since.  For the last 15 years I was doing consulting
21     with the three Prairie provinces to help them set up
22     film development agencies and to set up the cultural
23     industries that are beginning to flourish.
24  694                  One of the most frustrating elements
25     that you are aware of coming from Vancouver -- although


 1     things are a little healthier in B.C. than other
 2     places -- has been the inability for regional producers
 3     to access the decision-making processes in particularly
 4     the public network as it began to hive off pieces,
 5     consolidate and redirect the network in the Toronto
 6     directions.  Wherever there were opportunities to
 7     develop as independents in partnership with the CBC, it
 8     was always at the instigation of a strong regional
 9     director who, within the constraints that the CBC had
10     at the time, was able to do something for those
11     industries.
12  695                  We had seen that in Winnipeg.  There
13     was quite a flourishing of activity during the 1980s. 
14     So in Winnipeg and similarly in Saskatchewan with
15     Minzines(ph) and several other small production
16     companies, to the point that Saskatchewan's independent
17     production sector today is larger than Alberta's.  Ten
18     years ago it was considerably in the opposite
19     direction.
20  696                  We in Alberta have suffered two
21     things.  We lost a film development agency a couple of
22     years ago, and we have seen the private broadcasters
23     retreating from their ability to license independent
24     productions, other than large scale dramas.  Therefore,
25     small independent or medium sized independents who do


 1     primarily documentaries or other forms of television
 2     have had to struggle, and only recently a glimmer of
 3     hope has arrived in the CBC's appointment of some
 4     regional directors in western Canada, one of whom, 
 5     Joan Novak, who has taken over Alberta, and within the
 6     constrains has begun to not make promises but to work
 7     with the industry an to help us develop and make
 8     connections back in Toronto and develop licences and
 9     such.
10  697                  The other initiative is on the SRC,
11     the CBC French network side, and Lionel Bonneville, who
12     is also here.  I am involved in a co-production with a
13     Vancouver producer on a documentary, and he has gone to
14     the network to squeeze even access to Telefilm
15     envelopes, which you know is a very difficult situation
16     for regional producers, because most CBC regional
17     managers cannot access those envelopes of money which
18     therefore make substantial productions possible.
19  698                  A similar case:  the same project we
20     are doing with Lionel on SRC, Murray Wilson has
21     acquired for services for CBC North, again, another
22     service that is so strapped for cash and resources that
23     it makes it very difficult to work with independents. 
24     But the attempts are there to do it.
25  699                  I could go on for hours obviously,


 1     but I won't.  I will wrap up now with the one pledge
 2     that I would hope you could take back to your
 3     colleagues in Ottawa, and I will be putting it in the
 4     ear of a couple that I know personally: Joan
 5     Pennefather and a few others that I have worked with
 6     over the years.  That is, the CBC network must become
 7     programmed from the regions as well as a national core. 
 8     In other parts of the country we need to see decisions
 9     made across the country with regional directors able to
10     access Telefilm windows or envelopes of funds, national
11     network windows for actually broadcasting programs, and
12     ultimately a balance of the national service being
13     regionally reflective, which is its mandate, and with a
14     strong core of national programming.
15  700                  All of this is part of a redesign
16     that many people have various ideas on how to redesign
17     the CBC.  But it is essentially making programs that
18     Canadians will watch and making those programs that
19     reflect the reality of all of Canada and not just a
20     narrow sense of the country as we have often seen it.
21  701                  Thank you very much.  I will answer
22     any questions that you may have.
23  702                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
24     Balcon.  I don't think we have any questions for you,
25     but I appreciate you taking the time to come here


 1     today.
 2  703                  MS PINSKY:  Ms Lynn Rubizna.
 4  704                  MS RUBIZNA:  Good afternoon.  How
 5     much time do I have?  Two minutes?
 6  705                  MS PINSKY:  You have ten minutes.
 7  706                  MS RUBIZNA:  Thank you.  I appreciate
 8     you fitting me in.  I couldn't get through on the
 9     telephone to you for the whole week.  We tried even one
10     day, 24 hours, some of us teachers to get through to
11     you, but we couldn't get through to you.
12  707                  We appreciate you coming to Edmonton
13     and welcome you to our city.  We are known as the city
14     with a big heart.  By that, I mean with strong
15     community spirit and community involvement.
16  708                  We feel we very much need the CBC,
17     both our radio and our television local and national,
18     because in the west, even though we don't have the
19     population, we do have great need to have a station
20     like the CBC that has high standards for reporting and
21     keeping the community involved and also keeping us
22     abreast of what is happening.  We don't get enough
23     local reporting any more.  Everything is globalizing to
24     such a fast effect that people are living in great
25     fear, because they really don't know what they can do


 1     positively in their communities any more.
 2  709                  I will give you an example.  Just
 3     last week CBC radio, 740 AM, interviewed an RCMP
 4     officer from Saskatchewan who spent four years of his
 5     life tracking down a man who had 27 false names -- I
 6     forget the name for having a false name.  He had 27
 7     aliases, sorry.  He was a child abuser, both in
 8     Europe -- Interpol had a big track record on him.  He
 9     was in an Abbotsford jail for nine months here but
10     because his alias kept changing, it was hard to track
11     him down and put him behind bars now pretty well
12     permanently.  He has come under the Violent Offenders
13     Act now, so he can be kept in jail indefinitely, as
14     long as he is viewed as a danger.  He has been abusing
15     children for so many years now, both in Europe, in
16     Canada and in the United States.
17  710                  This is just one example where CBC is
18     letting us know the positive things that are happening
19     in our community, the wonderful jobs that our police
20     are doing to break up some of the paedophile rings and
21     to help children; for example, the police in Calgary
22     and Edmonton who are helping children get off the
23     streets from prostitution, and to stop the abuses in
24     this country.  It is criminal.  Not enough is being
25     done to stop child abuse.


 1  711                  As a teacher and tutor myself -- and
 2     I am here speaking for other teachers in the city and
 3     other French Canadian and regular English-speaking
 4     families.  They have all told me that they are very
 5     concerned because their children are all encouraged to
 6     join gangs today.
 7  712                  As a tutor right now, fulltime, I
 8     found out about two children that I know in the city, a
 9     boy aged 15 and a girl aged 14, who have joined gangs
10     since Christmas.  The little girl involved is already
11     in jail.  She has only been part of this gang since
12     Christmas, and she is already in jail.
13  713                  The reason we need good
14     programming -- these children are being influenced by
15     the very extremely angry, hate-filled music that they
16     are listening to on the other stations today.  CBC
17     doesn't do that.  We baby boomers appreciate having the
18     variety that is on CBC for music, the wonderful
19     concerts they broadcast for us across this country to
20     keep us abreast of what is going on in different parts
21     of the country, as far as concerts, both classical and
22     non-classical; the beautiful inspirational music that
23     they play on radio throughout the week; and the famous
24     interviews that they have that make a real difference
25     in Canada.  I mentioned about the RCMP officer.


 1  714                  We would like them to carry other
 2     high-quality art programs.  We find there is a bit of a
 3     stress now, especially on CBC national television, on
 4     sports.  That doesn't mean we can't have sports.  We
 5     just think the stress is too strong on sports.  The
 6     coverage during the Olympics is 24 hours instead of
 7     just showing us the highlights.  I think they could
 8     certainly cut back on some of the extravagance that
 9     they do during the Olympics, compared to the United
10     States and other countries, and put more money into
11     local programming that would benefit our teens
12     especially, who, as I say, are being extremely
13     influenced by gangs.  We need something to counter this
14     influence in our community, and we think the CBC has a
15     mandate to keep us at leat posted on what is going on.
16  715                  They do a much better job usually. 
17     We would like to see them get a little bit more
18     involved in investigative reporting, which they don't
19     seem to have the time right now because of the severe
20     cutbacks.  We would like to see them get more of our
21     tax money so that the workers of the CBC do not live in
22     fear of losing their security.
23  716                  If they are going to do a good
24     quality job for the citizens of this country, which we
25     expect, they can't be everything to everybody.  We want


 1     them to do the best they can for us in terms of the
 2     important things which keep a community together: the
 3     news of what is happening so we can keep our children
 4     safe, and stop this abuse of our children.
 5  717                  These children are so angry today
 6     because they are victims of so much abuse.  Just to
 7     look at the kind of music they listen to and the anger
 8     in their faces scares me, and I am wondering where it
 9     is going to lead.  It is certainly not going to be a
10     positive influence in their own lives.
11  718                  The reason that we as Canadians
12     respect the CBC so much is because they are willing to
13     cover things that other stations are not willing to
14     cover; important news, not the sex scandal in the
15     United States for 24 hours a day, which happened on CBC
16     news, since the Pope's visit in Cuba, all the way down
17     up until now almost.  The coverage has been so intense.
18     What do we have to know all those details for of what
19     is going on in the United States political realm as far
20     as their sexual exploits?
21  719                  I don't know what that is going to
22     help Canadians with.
23  720                  As a concerned teacher and tutor of
24     many children, and personally involved with many
25     families in this city, we see a real importance that


 1     the CBC can make a real difference in our lives as it
 2     has in the past when I was growing up.  It always
 3     covered local concerts and things and made the children
 4     in the community feel important; that there was
 5     something positive that they could do in their lives,
 6     not the negative things like joining gangs today that
 7     is the direction they are being pushed in.
 8  721                  I think it has been proven already,
 9     because of the interviews that CBC has done of a lot of
10     the police working across the country with families and
11     citizens, that a lot of good can happen from CBC
12     broadcasts to stop the child abuse that is going on. 
13     If we all work together, the media -- especially the
14     Canadian media, which is the CBC -- with the community,
15     we can make this country and the future of this country
16     a lot brighter than it seems to be going in right now.
17  722                  This globalization and this severe
18     angry, hate-filled kind of music that they are exposed
19     to every day really bothers me.  I know it is not doing
20     anything good for their blood pressure or for their
21     outlook on life.
22  723                  CBC has been successful in involving
23     children in all kinds of concerts and communities. 
24     This year alone there are many involved in concerts
25     that they would never have had a chance to be involved


 1     in if it wasn't for CBC telling the community, helping
 2     the community to realize the importance of getting
 3     behind these children in a lot of their activities,
 4     whether it be sports activities or cultural.
 5  724                  And especially helping with the
 6     French language and other languages, CBC has always
 7     been there to show the positiveness of all the cultures
 8     in this country.  It has done a wonderful job of
 9     binding us together and we want to see it continue.  We
10     want them to get the extra funding they need to do the
11     job they need to do and feel that they are secure in
12     their jobs.
13  725                  We don't want to see too many of
14     these kinds of situations like Terry Milewsky
15     happening.  Our children don't understand.  Even we
16     baby boomers don't understand really why he was
17     dismissed, what really happened there, what the reasons
18     were.  A lot of things are unanswered, and Canadians
19     are confused here.  These things should be cleared up. 
20     After all, the taxpayers are paying for this news.  If
21     the man did something wrong, we would like to know what
22     it was he did wrong and why they felt he had to be
23     dismissed.  We just feel we have been kept in the dark
24     on these kinds of things.
25  726                  That is what we appreciate with CBC. 


 1     It is usually really very frank and open with the
 2     public about what it is doing.
 3  727                  Outside of too much stress on sports,
 4     especially non-Canadian sports, and a little bit too
 5     much stress on the political scandals in the United
 6     States, we think the CBC can go back to doing a
 7     wonderful job for all of us, and especially in our
 8     communities, make a real difference.
 9  728                  Thank you very much for your time.
10  729                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
11     much.
12  730                  MS PINSKY:  I believe those are all
13     the presenters that we have for today.
14  731                  I'm sorry, there is the CBC.
15  732                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  The CBC.
17  733                  M. RENÉ FONTAINE:  Merci, Madame
18     Grauer.  Je m'appelle René Fontaine et je suis le
19     directeur de la radio française pour la région des
20     Prairies.
21  734                  Je tiens à vous remercier de
22     l'occasion que vous nous avez donnée aujourd'hui
23     d'entendre les propos et les commentaires de plusieurs
24     de nos auditeurs, nos auditrices, nos téléspectateurs
25     et nos téléspectatrices.


 1  735                  Je tiens aussi à remercier les
 2     présentateurs de cette occasion qu'ils nous donnent et
 3     des propos qu'ils ont avancés.
 4  736                  You spoke in your opening comments,
 5     Mrs. Grauer, of the importance of these hearings and
 6     that is why a number of my colleagues are here today. 
 7     Among them is Joe Novak, who is the Director of English
 8     Television for the region of Alberta; as well, Don
 9     Orchard, who is the Director of English radio for
10     Alberta.
11  737                  Il y a aussi Lionel Bonneville qui
12     est le directeur de la télévision française de l'ouest
13     qui est avec nous.
14  738                  And as well, Slako Kunview(ph), who
15     is the Director of Network Programming for television,
16     who is with us as well.
17  739                  We will be addressing many of the
18     concerns at the upcoming licence renewal hearing in
19     May, but we will be getting back as well to a number of
20     the presenters on specific issues that they might have
21     raised that could be addressed directly through them.
22  740                  Plusieurs des présentateurs ont parlé
23     du caractère unique et essentiel de la radio et de la
24     télévision de Radio-Canada.  Ils ont parlé du rôle de
25     rassembleur.  Ils ont parlé aussi de l'importance pour


 1     la préservation de la culture tout comme pour
 2     l'apprentissage de la langue.
 3  741                  Ils ont parlé avec beaucoup de
 4     conviction et beaucoup de passion.
 5  742                  They have told you time and again of
 6     the importance of giving CBC the tools that it needs to
 7     fully serve the needs of all Canadians.
 8  743                  In concluding, I would like to thank
 9     you again for giving us the opportunity of hearing
10     their comments today.
11  744                  Merci beaucoup.
12  745                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
13  746                  We will be reconvening again at 6
14     o'clock tonight.
15  747                  What I would like to do in particular
16     is to thank the CBC and thank all the presenters we had
17     here today for taking the time to come and share their
18     views at these consultations.
19  748                  I would remind everybody that there
20     will be a Public Notice being issued later this month
21     with respect to the licence renewal hearings that are
22     taking place in May in Hull.  We will be taking written
23     submissions with respect to that proceeding until the
24     end of April, and I encourage anybody who is interested
25     to please participate again if they would like to do


 1     so.
 2  749                  Once again, thank you very much, and
 3     we will see you at 6 o'clock.
 4     --- Recess at 1700/ Suspension à 1700
 5     --- Upon resuming at 1800 / Reprise à 1800
 6  750                  LA PRÉSIDENTE:  Bonjour, mesdames et
 7     messieurs.
 8  751                  Welcome to this public consultation
 9     on the CBC.
10  752                  I guess this will actually be the
11     last of our public consultations on the CBC.
12  753                  My name is Cindy Grauer, and I am a
13     CRTC Commissioner.
14  754                  We are here to gather your views and
15     comments on CBC radio and television.  In your opinion,
16     how should the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation fulfil
17     its role in the coming years?
18  755                  Radio-Canada est un service public
19     national qui diffuse en français comme en anglais.  Il
20     joue un rôle important dans l'ensemble du système de
21     radiodiffusion canadienne.
22  756                  Many elements are constantly being
23     added to the broadcasting system as new technologies
24     multiply, converge, open up new horizons and
25     increasingly offer new services.  In this context, we


 1     want to know what are your needs and expectations as
 2     viewers and listeners of the CBC.
 3  757                  Given that, it is very important that
 4     the Commission hears what you have to say.  We must not
 5     lose sight of the fact that the CRTC is a public
 6     organization that serves Canadian citizens.  In this
 7     capacity, we are responsible to you.  This is why my
 8     fellow Commissioners and myself find it vital to come
 9     and meet with you to discuss these issues, and why we
10     are holding these series of regional consultations from
11     one end of the country to the other, in 11 Canadian
12     cities, from March 9th to 18th.
13  758                  These consultations are designed to
14     give you a chance, on the eve of a new millennium, to
15     express your opinion on the CBC's role, the programming
16     it offers and the direction it should take at the
17     national, regional and local levels.  Through these
18     consultations, we hope to enter into an open dialogue
19     with you and hear your concerns.  Your comments will
20     form part of the public record which will be added to
21     the record of the public hearing on the CBC that will
22     begin in Hull next May 25th.
23  759                  At this upcoming hearing the
24     Commission will examine the CBC's application for the
25     renewal of its licences, including radio, television


 1     and its specialty services, Newsworld and RDI.  You can
 2     also take part in that public hearing by sending your
 3     written comments to the CRTC.  If you wish to do so,
 4     please remember to refer to the specific licence
 5     renewals being examined when you file your comments. 
 6     The public notice with respect to that hearing will be
 7     issued at the end of this month and you may submit any
 8     further comments, or any comments at all, until
 9     April 30th.
10  760                  Now I would like to come back to
11     today's consultations.
12  761                  Please allow me to introduce the CRTC
13     staff who will be assisting us today:  Carolyn Pinsky,
14     to my right, our legal counsel; and Michelle Edge, from
15     our Western and Territories Regional Office, who is at
16     the desk outside.  Please feel free to call on them
17     with any questions you might have about process today
18     or any other matter.
19  762                  So that you will all have the
20     opportunity to speak, we ask that you please limit your
21     presentation to 10 minutes.
22  763                  As these consultations are a forum
23     designed especially for you and we want to listen to as
24     many participants as possible, we will not ask any
25     questions unless we need clarification.


 1  764                  At the end of this session,
 2     representatives from the local CBC stations will have a
 3     chance to offer their views, as they are naturally very
 4     interested by the issues we are discussing here today.
 5  765                  Before we start, I would ask our
 6     legal counsel to go over some of the housekeeping
 7     matters regarding the conduct of this consultation.
 8  766                  MS PINSKY:  Thank you.
 9  767                  Just a couple of procedural and
10     administrative points.
11  768                  First, in terms of how we will
12     proceed this evening, anybody who is here who is
13     registered or wishes to make an oral presentation is
14     invited to take a seat at the table.  I will then call
15     each presenter in turn.  When I call your name, if you
16     could press the button on the microphone, that way your
17     presentation will be accurately transcribed, and when
18     you are finished shut it off so we don't get feedback.
19  769                  We do have translation services
20     available today.  If anybody requires a translation
21     device, you can obtain one at the front desk just at
22     the entrance to this room.
23  770                  In addition, for those who are here
24     who don't wish to make an oral presentation but would
25     like to leave some written comments, we have comment


 1     sheets available at the front desk and they will be
 2     placed on the public file of this proceeding.
 3  771                  So, with that, we can call the first
 4     presenter.
 5  772                  First, is everybody at the table who
 6     intends to make a presentation?
 7  773                  As well, we have plenty of seats, so
 8     if anybody else wants to sit at the table, you are
 9     welcome to.
10  774                  Our first presenter this evening is
11     Mr. Nicholas Spillios.
13  775                  MR. SPILLIOS:  Good evening,
14     Madam Commissioner and CRTC staff.  It is a pleasure to
15     be here, to be given an opportunity to express our
16     opinions.
17  776                  My name is Nicholas Spillios and I am
18     presenting this brief on behalf of the Society for the
19     Retired and Semi-Retired who is making this brief in
20     support of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation.
21  777                  The CBC is the voice of Canada, and
22     its voice is being muted.
23  778                  The CBC is our voice.  It is our last
24     link with a national consciousness and protection from
25     the inescapable eroding of Canadian culture by the


 1     United States.  This responsibility cannot be left to
 2     chance and the commercial interests of private
 3     broadcasters.
 4  779                  The CBC appears to be under attack
 5     from within as well as without.  These hearings are
 6     being held at a turbulent time in the beleaguered
 7     corporation's history which upon conclusion of these
 8     hearings may not have much remaining to support.
 9  780                  Granted, it is important to hold
10     these hearings and provide a forum for consumers to
11     voice their opinion on the role of the CBC, but it may
12     have been more appropriate to examine the role and
13     future direction of all broadcasting industries at this
14     time.
15  781                  Are private broadcasters exempt from
16     the discussion of their role?  The CBC is only one
17     component of the industry.  To discuss their role
18     outside of this context becomes a decidedly one-sided
19     discussion.
20  782                  According to the 1991 Broadcasting
21     Act, it was stated that:
22                            "Programming should be
23                            distinctly Canadian, reflect
24                            Canada and its regions to
25                            national and regional audiences,


 1                            contribute to shared national
 2                            consciousness and identity." 
 3                            (As read)
 4  783                  The CBC has the opportunity, we feel,
 5     to improve the information base of Canadians, to
 6     celebrate our common values, as well as respecting the
 7     cultural diversity of all Canadians.
 8  784                  We would like to present an argument,
 9     but we would also like to take into account the
10     acceptance of certain givens and observations essential
11     to any discussion of role definition.  These include: 
12     the changes in demographics, which affect programming;
13     the impact of technological changes, which affect the
14     design and delivery systems; the reliance on public
15     funding for survival; proliferation of Crown
16     Corporations -- we have many Crown Corporations
17     handling almost identical responsibilities; and, that
18     policy makers must exist at arm's length.
19  785                  We like to build our rationale by
20     mentioning a few facts.
21  786                  Demographics:  According to
22     Statistics Canada, in 1992 leisure time was being
23     diminished from 5.5 hours to 4.7.  Quebec is the
24     highest viewer in Canada, with Alberta and B.C. the
25     weakest.  Young audiences seem to be dwindling and


 1     older audiences seem to be viewing more.
 2  787                  The American association of retired
 3     people stated that by the Year 2000 the older
 4     population would be outstripping the younger population 
 5     and that there would be a drop from -- and there is
 6     currently a drop from 2.7 hours to 2.3 hours.  Also,
 7     73 per cent of seniors are born in Canada.  So what of
 8     the others?  Are we giving them proper attention?
 9  788                  As far as programming is concerned,
10     cost cuts have impacted upon programming:  children's
11     fare, documentaries, independent films, national/
12     international events should be increased.
13  789                  The CBC has always stood for
14     excellence, but there seems to be a focus on some of
15     the kinds of things which the CBC does so well:  news,
16     events and public affairs programming.
17  790                  Now, it is our observation that there
18     is a political impact here.  We need neutrality for
19     free expression by artists and others.
20  791                  There seems to be a government
21     control of appointments.  This seems to be the
22     observation of many of us.  And for the first time in
23     many, many years we find that the government in power
24     is not giving support and neither does the opposition. 
25     This is one case where there seems to be some agreement


 1     between the two in power.
 2  792                  In every economics we feel that there
 3     should be all -- I'm sorry -- there has been a
 4     restructuring of all cultural industries.  New
 5     technologies are coming in.  The cable companies are
 6     dedicating up to 500 channels.
 7  793                  So with this in mind, we would like
 8     to offer the following recommendations:  a return to
 9     original programming while accommodating the make-up of
10     present-day audiences; examining the extent interests
11     are met on private stations.
12  794                  This may mean that we have to reduce
13     young adults, the young adult programming, because
14     young adults seem to find a greater preponderance or a
15     greater desire to obtain their entertainment and other
16     activities outside of the home.
17  795                  There should be an increase on youth
18     and more programming for older people, ethnocultural
19     programming.
20  796                  We should make way for drama, films,
21     independent films.  We feel that in Canada many films
22     which do not get proper airing across the country --
23     and case in point is Such A Long Journey, Noah, the
24     Hanging Garden.  After they have finished their
25     saturation in places outside of Ontario, this would be


 1     an opportunity to air quality fare of interest to
 2     Canadians.
 3  797                  There should be opportunities for
 4     artists to appear on television and radio.
 5  798                  We feel that there should be in depth
 6     research; breakdown of preference by age and taste.
 7  799                  There is a proliferation, it seems,
 8     of Crown Corporations.  There are Crown Corporations
 9     for the National Film Board, Canadian Radio and
10     Television Telecommunications, Téléfilm Canada.  We are
11     asking for perhaps an examination on whether one or two
12     or three of these Crown Corporations could be collapsed
13     or amalgamated.
14  800                  Only with additional funding will the
15     inroads of U.S. erosion on our culture be met.  The
16     public hearings of cultural industries should be taking
17     place almost immediately.
18  801                  We feel, as we examine the support in
19     other countries, such as England with the BBC, that
20     somehow the structure and the way we support
21     financially the CBC should be examined.
22  802                  There should be an international
23     exchange through cable and satellite.  There are many,
24     many channels being made available.  Perhaps the
25     National Film Board and the CBC could work together in


 1     offering a training school for artists, dancers,
 2     perhaps writers, producers, directors.
 3  803                  Finally, I would just like to say --
 4     oh, and before that, I would like to say also that I
 5     did find one statistic.  The top 20 per cent of
 6     Canadian income earners account for one third of the
 7     spending on entertainment.  This seems to be a figure
 8     which should be taken into account in the way
 9     programming is put together.
10  804                  In summary and in conclusion, I would
11     just like to state that we have to be very frank about
12     the preference of Canadians.  Canadians want it both
13     ways:  they want access to the U.S. programming, but
14     they also want Canadian programming.  Let us give it to
15     them.  Let us give it to us.  Do not take our voice
16     away from us.
17  805                  The CRT challenge is to find a
18     balance in the system that should maintain and provide
19     for a national identity and cultural sovereignty as the
20     industry faces increased competition.
21  806                  I thank you, Madam Commissioner.
22  807                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
23     Mr. Spillios.
24  808                  I did want to point out to you that
25     you suggest a review of all the broadcasting industries


 1     in Canada.  In fact, the CRTC is in the midst of just
 2     such a review.  We have done a major review of private
 3     radio; we announced that decision last April.  We held
 4     extensive hearings this fall on conventional television
 5     with a new policy that will be coming out this summer. 
 6     So, in fact, these are a piece of an overall review of
 7     our broadcasting policy, just to reassure that we are
 8     certainly not --
 9  809                  MR. SPILLIOS:  Is that information
10     available --
11  810                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Absolutely.
12  811                  MR. SPILLIOS:  -- the results of
13     those hearings?
14  812                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.  It is all in
15     the public record.  In fact, we held public
16     consultations here in Alberta last spring, in Banff,
17     Calgary and in Grand Prairie, and it is all on the
18     record.
19  813                  MS PINSKY:  I would just note, the
20     results of the TV policy hearing aren't on the record
21     yet.  They haven't been published, but they will be.
22  814                  MR. SPILLIOS:  All right.  Thank you. 
23     I shall wait.
24  815                  MS PINSKY:  The submissions are, the
25     whole record of the proceeding.


 1  816                  MR. SPILLIOS:  Is that right.
 2  817                  Thank you.
 3  818                  MME PINSKY: La prochaine intervenante
 4     est la soeur Ida LaFrance.
 6  819                  SOEUR LaFRANCE:  Bonsoir tout le
 7     monde.  Je vous remercie de nous donner l'opportunité
 8     de parler au CRTC au sujet des programmes que nous
 9     avons en Alberta.  J'ai fait ça en -- point form to
10     make it easier.
11  820                  Je représente la Fédération des aînés
12     franco-albertains.  Nos attentes:  que le CRTC soit au
13     service de toutes les provinces à travers tout le
14     Canada.  C'est important et vital pour nous en Alberta
15     d'avoir plus d'émissions locales et pour les jeunes
16     d'aujourd'hui -- surtout le peuple francophone à
17     l'ouest du Manitoba.  Nous avons besoin d'émissions qui
18     reflètent notre vécu.
19  821                  Que le CRTC appuie la création de
20     nouveaux réseaux de l'histoire, des arts et de
21     l'économie de l'ouest semblables aux programmes à RDI
22     afin de faire connaître l'ouest à notre jeunesse
23     canadienne à travers tout le pays.
24  822                  Que les personnes âgées aient accès à
25     des feuillets publicitaires écrits et expliqués et mis


 1     à leur disposition dans nos manoirs -- the manors where
 2     these seniors are so that it would be like a memo for
 3     them -- afin de faciliter l'écoute de la télévision et
 4     de la radio en français.
 5  823                  Nos frustrations:  le contenu des
 6     programmes de la télévision et de la radio semble
 7     ignorer une partie du Canada, la francophonie des
 8     provinces de l'ouest -- la Saskatchewan, l'Alberta, la
 9     Colombie-Britannique ainsi que les Territoires du
10     Nord-Ouest.  Je dis on semble ignorer.  C'est qu'on a
11     beaucoup d'émissions qui nous viennent de la province
12     de Québec et c'est très bien, ça nous intéresse, mais
13     des fois c'est trop.
14  824                  Avoir des heures d'écoute plus
15     favorables.  Pensez aux personnes âgées.  Les nouvelles
16     à la télévision, Alberta ce soir, sont à 11 h 30 du
17     soir.  Cela n'est pas acceptable.
18  825                  Le grève actuelle crée beaucoup de
19     frustration chez tout le monde -- toutes les personnes
20     que j'ai consultées, surtout les personnes âgées -- et
21     peut avoir des conséquences sérieuses du fait que vous
22     perdez plusieurs auditeurs.  Comme on comprend les deux
23     langues -- pour moi je suis née en Alberta et je
24     préfère l'anglais.  Je fais un effort pour écouter le
25     français parce que je le comprends et ça m'intéresse


 1     mais quand les heures ne sont pas convenables, je
 2     retourne à l'anglais.
 3  826                  Beaucoup d'émissions à des heures
 4     convenables pour nous, les aînés, nous proviennent du
 5     Québec ou de la France actuellement -- plus que jamais
 6     depuis la grève -- et elles ne nous touchent guère.
 7  827                  Maintenant j'ai des choses positives
 8     aussi à vous dire.
 9  828                  Ce qui nous intéresse surtout et ce
10     que nous apprécions:  à la radio les émissions Le Café
11     Show le matin, Mag Ouest l'avant-midi.  Le contenu
12     c'est la spiritualité, la santé.  Il y a un beau choix
13     de musique et de très belles présentations. 
14     L'enrichissement personnel.  Parlons en français est
15     une ligne ouverte et l'automne dernier on nous a
16     demandé nos commentaires ici à Edmonton et puis on a
17     exprimé le désir d'avoir une heure de ligne ouverte et
18     puis ils ont écouté notre demande et ils ont mis une
19     heure au lieu d'une demi-heure.
20  829                  L'émission Contacts dans
21     l'après-midi -- très intéressant, ça touche nos
22     localités et notre vécu.
23  830                  Le poste CHFA nous transmet de 
24     l'information sur la cause française en Alberta et de
25     la gestion de nos écoles en Alberta.  C'est notre


 1     survivance cela.  Aussi on nous tient au courant de la
 2     politique albertaine.
 3  831                  If I want to hear something about the
 4     French schools and the school administration.  I never
 5     have that, very seldom have that on CBC radio.  It will
 6     be at the French station.  And I know exactly what is
 7     going on across the province, which is very
 8     interesting.
 9  832                  La télévision:  Alberta ce soir à 6
10     heures -- ça nous intéresse et on l'écoute, on apprécie
11     beaucoup cela.  Les Nouvelles du sports -- plusieurs
12     écoutent les nouvelles du sport parce qu'elles sont
13     plus expliquées en français qu'en anglais.  Le Jour du
14     Seigneur -- très apprécié par plusieurs personnes
15     âgées.  Second Regard est très apprécié aussi. 
16     Découverte, Le Point, Maisonneuve à l'écoute, la Vraie
17     vie -- ce sont les programmes que les personnes âgées
18     m'ont dit qu'elles écoutaient le plus souvent, surtout
19     ici à Edmonton.
20  833                  Maintenant, je vous remercie
21     beaucoup.  J'ai une copie pour vous.
22  834                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
23  835                  I just wanted to clarify one thing,
24     and this is perhaps a bit the translation.  Were you
25     saying there was scheduling information that you are


 1     having trouble getting?
 2  836                  SISTER LaFRANCE:  It's the programs. 
 3     The hours don't seem to be too convenient for us.  You
 4     see, we are two hours from Quebec and whatever they get
 5     there, well, we get them here but two hours after, you
 6     know?  Like the news at 11:30, the seniors are all in
 7     bed at that time.
 8  837                  And we used to have a small -- I have
 9     called it a clipping of news, Alberta Ce Soir, but
10     since the strike we have nothing.  So this is what
11     hurts us the most right now.
12  838                  I didn't go into the details of all
13     what Mister so-and-so there talked, but I do approve
14     everything he said about semi-retired and the retired
15     people.
16  839                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, it is all on
17     the record.
18  840                  SISTER LaFRANCE:  Okay.
19  841                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
20     much.
21  842                  MS PINSKY:  The next presenter is
22     Mr. Walter Doskoch.
24  843                  MR. DOSKOCH:  That's me.
25  844                  CRTC, I want to thank you for


 1     allowing me to speak as a taxpayer, a viewer, a
 2     listener and critic.  It's a lot of handles.
 3  845                  I'm one of the megathousands in
 4     Canada who support and demand the CBC improve its news
 5     and programming to what it was prior to Mulroney's
 6     costly free-trade agreements.  The CBC is a unifying
 7     force in Canada.  You can tell that when you travel
 8     across Canada, this Canada of ours, and you hear the
 9     CBC.  You always know you are at home.
10  846                  All the private stations sell soaps
11     and you never know where you are at.  You swear you are
12     in Yankee land.
13  847                  When the CBC was born, the
14     politicians in Canada believed in and fought for a
15     strong and united Canada.  Today's crop of politicians,
16     regardless of stripe, seek ways to support corporate
17     elitism and neo-liberalism, the rentier bankers.  I
18     kind of get the feeling the politicians today are
19     looking for a spot at the corporate trough, rather than
20     the interests of the Canadian people.
21  848                  Where corporations, prior to
22     Mulroney's administration, paid 22 per cent of the
23     taxes and working people paid 30 per cent of the taxes,
24     we had everything.  With the coming of free trade,
25     corporations paid 7 per cent and workers paid 40 per


 1     cent tax.  Added to this we get GST; we get
 2     deregulation; we have got unemployment, we get lay
 3     offs; health, education and social services all
 4     slashed; and today we pay 60 per cent of the monies
 5     earned in one form of tax or another.  Today the rich
 6     are getting richer and the poor are paying the price. 
 7     We can no longer afford to feed the rich.  The time now
 8     is for change.
 9  849                  The CBC must be renewed.  It must
10     create jobs, produce more and better shows, tell
11     Canadian stories.  We have a million stories out there
12     that have to be told and the CBC are the only people
13     that can tell them.  The CBC can and must create jobs
14     in the cultural field, ensure more and better
15     information is dispensed to the public.  The CBC has
16     done a better job of keeping Canadians informed than
17     the press has to date.
18  850                  The CBC must continue to operate
19     independent of government and continue to serve the
20     public.  We don't need a politician running this thing.
21  851                  Further, I oppose privatization of
22     the CBC, and all I have talked to say the same.  It was
23     built on a strong foundation.  It must remain and
24     continuously be maintained.  It is like a person going
25     to the doctor for a check up or getting your teeth


 1     checked by a dentist.  That has to be done.
 2  852                  The CBC was built to serve the public
 3     and keep Canada strong and united.  It was never built
 4     to carry a chief executive officer who is overpaid and
 5     all he can see is how much money he can make.  Hey,
 6     there is 30 million out here; we all have to eat.  We
 7     don't like unemployment.
 8  853                  Today I want to say this also.  There
 9     are about 400 TV outlets.  What the hell they are
10     doing, I don't know.  But there is only one CBC and
11     that speaks on behalf of Canadians.  The rest speak for
12     money.
13  854                  Myself, I would sooner pay a tax for
14     viewing TV than watch the mindless advertising on the
15     tube.  All the advertising does is disrupt good shows,
16     screws up sports programs and creates a lot of
17     frustration.  It is time to stop that stupidity.  Why
18     can't TV and radio stations have one hour a day where
19     they can show advertising tastefully?  Maybe somebody
20     will learn something instead of cursing a product
21     because it is interfering with a show or a game.
22  855                  It's time the CRTC started to work
23     for the people rather than be at the beck and call of
24     the corporations, the way it seems today with all the
25     bloody advertising that is showing on every program. 


 1     You can't watch anything for three minutes, there is a
 2     lousy -- somebody has to advertise something stupid,
 3     and then do it 10 times in a row.
 4  856                  I think this is sheer insanity and I
 5     think this has to be stopped.  You are the people that
 6     can do it.  That's what you hired for, is to look after
 7     the needs of the Canadian people, not some corporation
 8     from New York or some place else.
 9  857                  And, as I finish, I would like you to
10     tell Mr. Chrétien to live up to his Red Book promises
11     and settle the CBC strike fairly, because we have had
12     enough of that nonsense, too.
13  858                  That is my brief, ma'am.
14  859                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
15     much, Mr. Doskoch.
16  860                  MR. DOSKOCH:  You are welcome.
17  861                  MS PINSKY:  The next presenter is
18     Mr. Samuel King.
20  862                  MR. KING:  I have just been to the
21     dentist, so I will get the lady sitting next to me to
22     read my stuff for me.
23  863                  MS WOODHOPE:  Good evening, ladies
24     and gentlemen, and Madam Commissioner.
25  864                  Before I go any further, I am a true


 1     born Canadian, but my formative years were in England,
 2     hence, my disguise, as it were.
 3  865                  So Mr. King would like to take the
 4     opportunity to air his views about the role and the
 5     future of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation,
 6     Radio-Canada:
 7                            "It is well known that all major
 8                            industrialized nations in the
 9                            western hemisphere, (incl.
10                            Japan), and even in the old
11                            communist block have their own
12                            public broadcasters, for
13                            example, the BBC in the UK.,
14                            l'ORTF in France and NHK in
15                            Japan.  These days, preserving
16                            Canadian culture in the face of
17                            the American onslaught should be
18                            a major concern for all
19                            Canadians.  I regard the CBC as
20                            the last bastion or the last
21                            line of defence for this
22                            purpose.  There was a time when
23                            we spoke of Canada from sea to
24                            sea to sea.  These days, thanks
25                            to [the] free trade with our


 1                            southern neighbours, the
 2                            direction is gradually, but
 3                            notably changing from north to
 4                            south.  So, now I go home each
 5                            night to spend quality viewing
 6                            hours watching tasteless
 7                            dumb-down commercials,
 8                            interlaced with snippets of
 9                            useless information, carried to
10                            us by our friends in the cable
11                            industry.  Struggling to break
12                            through from all that `junk' is
13                            the CBC Newsworld ... and CBC
14                            Edmonton [and having a tough
15                            time, too.]  In my view, the CBC
16                            is trying very hard to fulfil
17                            its role as the national public
18                            broadcaster.  But how can they
19                            provide this important and
20                            necessary service with their
21                            hands tied behind their backs,
22                            because of insufficient funding. 
23                            As the song goes, today is
24                            yesterday's tomorrow.  The
25                            future is now.  The so-called


 1                            new millennium, is just another
 2                            year in the grand scheme of the
 3                            universe.  But like everything
 4                            else in life, one should
 5                            endeavour to progress.  The CBC
 6                            can fulfil its role in a
 7                            different manner as long as its
 8                            broadcast policies bring all
 9                            Canadians together, much more
10                            than their financial situation
11                            allows them to do at present. 
12                            Should the CBC provide different
13                            programming than those provided
14                            by other broadcasters?  The
15                            answer is a resounding `yes'.
16                            (1)  We need more unique
17                            Canadian programming, not the
18                            glossy sleek copies of
19                            Americana, which consume large
20                            capital expenditure;  (2)  We
21                            need less, not more commercials. 
22                            Preferably none.  Just like BBC
23                            ... in the U.K., [BBC (1), that
24                            is.];  (3)  There should be
25                            opportunities for regional local


 1                            autonomy.  Canada has many
 2                            regions, with unique identities. 
 3                            Edmonton is hardly Toronto. 
 4                            Quebec City is hardly Vancouver. 
 5                            Only through some
 6                            de-centralisation can other
 7                            regions be given the chance to
 8                            display their talents.  The
 9                            prairies and the maritimes are
10                            bursting with various artistic
11                            talents.  A friend of mine once
12                            said that Canada is an `MTV'
13                            (Montreal, Toronto, Vancouver)
14                            cultural country.  If we follow
15                            this MTV cultural logic ... and
16                            Victoria ..."
17  866                  I have missed it.
18  867                  MR. KING:  Okay.  Quebec City.
19  868                  MS WOODHOPE:
20                            "... [Victoria, Regina and
21                            Winnipeg] are not on the map. 
22                            Here is a powerful argument for
23                            de-centralisation.  Let's start
24                            the new millennia with this
25                            concept.  In the private


 1                            broadcast (commercial) domain,
 2                            there are some powerful entities
 3                            who are interesting in [selling]
 4                            a much smaller --"
 5  869                  MR. KING:  Seeing.
 6                       MS WOODHOPE:
 7                            "-- CBC or no CBC at all.  Their
 8                            main interest is snapping up a
 9                            weakened CBC at bargain prices. 
10                            We are all witnesses to the
11                            exploits of the commercial
12                            broadcast industry, with
13                            excessive advertising, using all
14                            the most aggressive, and mostly
15                            tasteless devices to get the
16                            viewers attention, all in the
17                            interest of making money.  I
18                            feel sure that most Canadians
19                            don't wish to see their CBC that
20                            way.  The CBC, therefore, should
21                            provide the escape from this
22                            insanity.  We now come to the
23                            big question.  How do we raise
24                            money to keep the CBC Canadian,
25                            and possibly commercial-free? 


 1                            Here are some suggestions:  (1) 
 2                            More funding from the
 3                            government.  We know already how
 4                            tough that is; (2)  Maybe all
 5                            levels of government should
 6                            collaborate and issue CBC
 7                            `bonds' which will be available
 8                            to all Canadians; (3)  Canadians
 9                            should be allowed to `donate'
10                            tax-deductible monies [perhaps]
11                            to the CBC, similar to [the]
12                            `PBS' [in America]; (4) How
13                            about each province running
14                            their own regional CBC outlets,
15                            with daily cross-country
16                            linkage?; (5)  The CBC should
17                            buy Canadian (equipment) as much
18                            as possible.  Thus supporting
19                            Canadian manufacturers, of
20                            which, believe it or not, there
21                            are many.  The CBC has invested
22                            vast sums of money in
23                            cutting-edge broadcast and audio
24                            technology mostly as
25                            `consumers'.  The foreign


 1                            manufacturers of these equipment
 2                            [for example] (SSL, Neves,
 3                            Ameks, Sony, Studer, etc), and
 4                            their Canadian distributors have
 5                            done very well, but one element
 6                            is missing.  There has been no
 7                            transfer of `technological
 8                            know-how'.  The BBC in England
 9                            works with..."
10  870                  I have lost my last page.
11                            "...[the local] manufacturers at
12                            all levels to get the right
13                            products for the job, [they]
14                            acquire the appropriate
15                            technical knowledge [and] avoid
16                            obsolescence, and save great
17                            sums of money into the bargain. 
18                            [And that's my suggestion.] 
19                            Thank you."
20  871                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
21     much, Mr. King and Madam.
22  872                  MS PINSKY:  Ms Erica Bullwinkle is
23     the next presenter.
25  873                  MS BULLWINKLE:  Thank you.


 1  874                  I thank you for this opportunity.
 2  875                  I will just begin by saying a little
 3     bit about myself.
 4  876                  My name is Erica Bullwinkle.  I am 42
 5     years old, university educated, and currently a
 6     full-time mother of three children in grades 2, 5
 7     and 8.  I came to Canada from Britain in 1982 and
 8     became a Canadian citizen about 10 years ago.
 9  877                  I mention that I am from the U.K.
10     because I believe the strong presence of a public
11     broadcaster in the British media market has meant that
12     British television and radio have maintained a
13     consistently high quality.  This is absent in a country
14     like the U.S. where commercial considerations have
15     dominated the development of TV and radio.  Our family
16     are strong supporters of public broadcasting.  We give
17     financial donations to KSPS in Spokane and used to
18     donate to Access Television here in Alberta.
19  878                  I believe that public broadcasting is
20     essential to the functioning of a modern democracy. 
21     This is partly because public broadcasters can give
22     more time to news and examination of what is behind the
23     news.  But it is also because ownership of the media is
24     becoming increasingly concentrated.  This is worrying
25     because of a lack of alternatives in getting


 1     information.
 2  879                  I would like to give the example of
 3     the newspaper market here in Canada.
 4  880                  Last year we spent 10 months in
 5     Britain.  Since our return to Edmonton, I have not
 6     subscribe to a daily newspaper.  The newspaper market
 7     fails to offer me the kind of choice that is available
 8     in Britain.  I am increasingly dependent on the CBC for
 9     information and news.  It is not only that there are
10     fewer owners in the media, but the types of owners are
11     not very diverse.
12  881                  When I lived in Ontario, I worked for
13     a small newspaper and it was owned by the community
14     association which consisted of about 35 clubs and
15     organizations in the town.  This type of ownership is
16     not repeated on larger circulation papers nor on
17     private radio or TV stations where owners tend to be
18     drawn from a small section of society.
19  882                  Only the CBC has a really diverse
20     ownership -- it belongs to the people of Canada.  This
21     does not mean, however, that it belongs to the
22     Government of Canada.
23  883                  There are two points that I would
24     like to stress about the future of the CBC.
25  884                  The first is that it should be


 1     provided with a guaranteed form of funding.  Britain
 2     has the TV licence fees.  I don't know what kind of
 3     things could be considered, a tax on cable fees or
 4     something like that, but I think that should be looked
 5     into very carefully.
 6  885                  The second thing is that it should be
 7     able to operate at arm's length from government.  I was
 8     disturbed at the obvious attempts to interfere with the
 9     CBC that have arisen as a result of the events
10     surrounding the APEC Summit in Vancouver.  I'm sure I'm
11     not alone among viewers in being perplexed as to why
12     Terry Mylewski seems to have disappeared from our
13     screens.
14  886                  I want to stress I would have the
15     same concerns whatever party was in power.  This is not
16     an attack on the current government.
17  887                  For the most part, you can expect
18     politicians to try and influence the way they are seen
19     in the media no matter how good their democratic
20     impulses.  Temptation should not be put in their way.
21  888                  The CBC needs to be able to maintain
22     that distance.  No one in the government should have
23     the power to directly appoint senior people at the CBC. 
24     An independent board should do that.  With these two
25     guarantees -- proper funding and mechanisms to keep it


 1     arm's length from government -- the CBC should be able
 2     to function in a way that promotes the interests of the
 3     people of Canada.
 4  889                  I have said that I believe a public
 5     broadcaster is essential to the proper functioning of
 6     our democracy in the absence of a diversity of
 7     ownership in the media.  I believe the CBC currently
 8     does a good job in television news production, though
 9     it is clearly beginning to lack resources, both locally
10     and in terms of overseas correspondents.  I think their
11     numbers should be increased, not decreased.
12  890                  My favourite program is actually the
13     National Magazine, which I have missed during the
14     technicians' strike.  I think that sometimes the topics
15     it features should be given more time, and I would like
16     to see the CBC being able to put more resources into
17     production of documentaries.
18  891                  CBC radio news and As It Happens
19     should also be singled out for praise.  I don't believe
20     that CBC Radio One is quite as good as BBC Radio Four
21     in Britain, and I think it would benefit from the
22     introduction of more diverse programming, especially in
23     half-hour format.  I would give the examples of The
24     Inside Track and Writers and Company as examples of
25     good programs of this type, but I think there should be


 1     more.  Personally, I still miss The Food Programme.  I
 2     don't understand why it was cancelled.
 3  892                  I hope that the CBC will strongly
 4     resist pressures to accept advertising on radio.
 5  893                  Of course, the CBC will make
 6     increasing use of the Internet and so on in its news
 7     coverage.  But I think it is important to note that in
 8     a world of instant headlines, a broadcaster with a
 9     mandate and the proper resources to bring us the story
10     behind the news, the in depth analysis will become
11     increasingly important.  Similarly, as the number of
12     channels available increases, the CBC's role as a
13     national communicator will become more vital.
14  894                  It is the job of the public
15     broadcaster to feature good Canadian drama and comedy,
16     both made in house and purchased from other Canadian
17     producers.  The CBC already does this.  I believe that
18     the CBC should maintain a high percentage of
19     Canadian-made programming, though I do not agree that
20     it should have to be exclusively Canadian.  I think it
21     is a pity that CBC television carries advertising which
22     detracts from the viewing of anything which has a bit
23     of depth to it.  Anyone who is currently following
24     Ken Finkleman's series Foolish Heart must have noticed
25     this.


 1  895                  I appreciate the fact that the CBC
 2     does not run advertising during its children's
 3     programming.  If it were not for public broadcasters,
 4     there would be virtually no quality children's
 5     programming produced in North America.  For this alone,
 6     the CBC should continue to have our support.
 7  896                  I came here today, not because I am
 8     an expert.  I am a very ordinary viewer.  But I am one
 9     who believes strongly that public broadcasting is very
10     important if we are to maintain thoughtful and quality
11     Canadian programming.  I hope government policy will
12     continue to reflect the importance of the CBC to the
13     functioning of our country, to the preservation of its
14     democratic institutions and to the ability of Canadians
15     across the country to talk to each other.
16  897                  Thank you.
17  898                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
18     Ms Bullwinkle.
19  899                  MS PINSKY:  La prochaine intervenant
20     est Mme Patricia Rijavec.  Elle n'est pas ici.
21  900                  The next presenter is Mr. Jim Borgel.
23  901                  MR. BORGEL:  I wish to thank the CRTC
24     for allowing me to comment in regards to public
25     broadcasting in Canada.


 1  902                  My name is Jim Borgel, President of
 2     Campaign Life Coalition at Alberta.
 3  903                  As an organization, we seek the
 4     protection of all human life from conception to natural
 5     death.  I know you have received presentations from our
 6     organization in other parts of Canada, so I will
 7     present the Alberta perspective in our observations.
 8  904                  An international human rights
 9     conference on human rights and values was held in
10     Edmonton on November 26th to the 28th, 1998.  On
11     Friday, November 27th we held a demonstration to show
12     the truth and speak on behalf of pre-born children. 
13     These were very graphic pictures of aborted babies from
14     eight weeks to full term.  Although we notified the
15     CBC, no coverage was provided.  Some people indicated
16     the pictures were disturbing.  Yes, the pictures
17     displayed are and were absolutely disturbing, but they
18     did speak the truth.  They showed what is really
19     happening to some of Canada's children.
20  905                  As a side note, the gentleman
21     mentioned here before there are more elderly.  Part of
22     the reason is because we don't allow the children to be
23     born.
24  906                  Our demonstration was peaceful.  Was
25     that the reason no coverage was provided?  The silence


 1     for the unborn is deafening.
 2  907                  In January, the CBC National Magazine
 3     "Thou Shall Not Kill" was aired.  It is my belief that
 4     this documentary produced by the CBC was biased and
 5     misleading.
 6  908                  Recommendation:  Before a new licence
 7     is granted the CBC, the CRTC request and review the
 8     complete interview between Jim Hughes, our national
 9     president, and the CBC reporter.
10  909                  Also, from this program, review the
11     authenticity of scenes depicting pro-lifers as violent. 
12     One clip on program saw angry pro-abortion advocates
13     yelling and screaming at pro-lifers.  However, the clip
14     made, it seems that pro-lifers exhibited the obnoxious
15     behaviour.
16  910                  Recommendation:  The CBC be required
17     to report the truth from an unbiased viewpoint.  If
18     they cannot be factual, they forfeit their right to
19     report, cannot be trusted, and therefore their service
20     is compromised and information useless.
21  911                  Linda Gibbons -- I don't know if
22     everybody knows who she is; she is a pro-life advocate
23     in Ontario -- has been released from jail, along with
24     others, on the grounds that they were incorrectly
25     charged.  Everyone was happy to see here free, but what


 1     about the four years in jail and the treatment she
 2     received while in jail?  If the CBC wanted to do a
 3     story on pro-life radicals in Canada, why didn't they
 4     interview the Canadian pro-lifer who has served the
 5     most time in jail?  Is the reason the CBC did not
 6     feature Linda Gibbons because hers is a story of faith,
 7     peace and non-violence?
 8  912                  Recommendation:  CBC reports use
 9     Canadian content when available and used in an unbiased
10     and balanced manner.
11  913                  As a closing point of interest, the
12     best man at our wedding and godfather to one of our
13     children was a chosen child.  This person was best man
14     for eight couples and godfather for seven children. 
15     How many people of that stature do you know?  How many
16     today see the light of day?
17  914                  Recommendation:  In the new
18     millennium for Canada the CBC should promote love and
19     life instead of sex and death.
20  915                  Conclusion:  At present, the way I
21     feel now, I would not allow myself to be interviewed by
22     the CBC unless I was guaranteed an unedited copy of
23     tape or video.  It is simply a matter of trust.
24  916                  I think the CBC has an important role
25     to play in Canada in our diverse country.  We are so


 1     broad, I think you absolutely need public broadcasting. 
 2     We don't want special treatment, just open and honest
 3     and unbiased reporting.
 4  917                  Again, the silence for the unborn is
 5     deafening in Canada.
 6  918                  Thank you for taking the time to hear
 7     us.
 8  919                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
 9     Mr. Borgel.
10  920                  MS PINSKY:  The next presenter is
11     Mr. Samuel Abernathy.
13  921                  MR. ABERNATHY:  I thank you.
14  922                  I'm here as a so-called ordinary
15     Canadian.  I'm not representing anyone but myself, and
16     I presented to the CRTC, in point form, two copies of
17     my notes which I could read.  I would rather not, I
18     suppose.
19  923                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  It's entirely up to
20     you.  You have given it to us.  It's part of the public
21     record.  But if you are here and you would like to
22     speak, we would certainly be more than happy to hear
23     from you.
24  924                  MR. ABERNATHY:  Okay.  Perhaps what I
25     will speak to is some of the things I have heard, and


 1     have you add, if you will please, into the first point,
 2     a subsection --
 3  925                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  What we will do is
 4     put all of this on the public record so you can be sure
 5     it is there, and you can just add whatever you want to
 6     at this point.  How is that?  Does that suit you?
 7  926                  MR. ABERNATHY:  Sure.  I'm not even
 8     going to refer to my notes, then.
 9  927                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Pardon me?
10  928                  MR. ABERNATHY:  I say, you have my
11     notes.  They go onto the public record.  I will just
12     speak.
13  929                  The BCB to me is very important as a
14     unifying entity in Canada, as a corporate entity, or
15     however it is structured.
16     --- Off microphone / Sans microphone
17  930                  MR. ABERNATHY:  How is that?
18  931                  As I was saying, the CBC seems to me
19     to serve as a unifying force within Canada.  It's not
20     bridging the gulf between French-speaking and
21     English-speaking members of our country.  I can't
22     listen to French radio or watch French television
23     without a translation, nor could I listen to the
24     women's statement, which I would have loved to have
25     heard, without the translation -- I noticed I think the


 1     Commissioner was unable to do likewise -- which to me
 2     I'm ashamed to say it's a fact.  I just can't do it. 
 3     But I would like to have access to French programming.
 4  932                  I believe, as your first speaker
 5     said, it's very important that the CBC remain at arm's
 6     length from the government.
 7  933                  With respect to -- she is gone now --
 8     the woman who spoke of the British broadcasting system,
 9     it's got its funding and it is functioning at arm's
10     length.  It has a very good variety of programming and
11     it is not interfered with through advertising and the
12     American model of broadcasting, which seems to be it is
13     entirely profit driven.
14  934                  The CBC has never been a
15     profit-driven broadcaster.  It has been a public
16     broadcaster for all Canadians to speak to Canadians in
17     all our geographically vast regions, some have
18     mentioned from sea to sea to sea.  That sort of covers
19     most of Canada.  But we have a huge country and the CBC
20     is vitally important to those people within the
21     country.
22  935                  And the woman who spoke with
23     reference to the United Kingdom's system of media sort
24     of alluded to the fact that the CBC is a broadcaster
25     which is world famous.  She mentioned As It Happens. 


 1     There are people who will ring into As It Happens,
 2     which is a radio program, from America saying, you
 3     know, "We love this program.  Why can't we have
 4     something like that in America?"
 5  936                  We have it in Canada and I don't know
 6     what can be done to preserve it, except renew the CBC's
 7     licence and somehow have the CBC guaranteed its funding
 8     to provide us with topics and issues that are important
 9     to all Canadians in all the different areas of Canada
10     and promote the Canadian culture and Canadian unity.
11  937                  I have, at the end, the
12     recommendation for replacing the current President,
13     Mr. Peron Beatie.  I put forward the names of a
14     Mr. Ian Brown, who CBC radio listeners will know as a
15     very good broadcaster in Toronto; and an executive
16     director at Sheridan College, Mr. Ronald Holgerson.
17  938                  That's all I wish to say.
18  939                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
19     much, Mr. Abernathy.
20  940                  MR. ABERNATHY:  You're welcome.
21  941                  MS PINSKY:  The next presenter is
22     Mr. Bill Lock.
24  942                  MR. LOCK:  Thank you for giving us
25     all the opportunity to speak here and have this forum.


 1  943                  I am 43 years old.  I'm a year older
 2     than Erica.  I have three children and I live in
 3     Calgary.  That's where I raise my family; that's where
 4     I was born; that's where my parents live.
 5  944                  I'm what is considered an emerging
 6     television producer.  I have been working in the
 7     production industry for over 20 years and have been
 8     producing television programs in Bennett(ph) Lake for
 9     the past few years.
10  945                  I have come to speak about the issues
11     from the context of an Albertan and as a Calgarian,
12     that is, of a community member, and one who is quite
13     involved in the community.  I was executive director of
14     a social agency for 10 years.  I speak as a community
15     member because I'm very happy to live here, to work
16     here and to raise my children here.
17  946                  I'm speaking here about CBC
18     television specifically.  I see the CBC as a meeting
19     place for those of us who share a common interest and a
20     common place, where we get to know our neighbours. 
21     It's a way that we speak and it is a way that we are
22     heard, where we find out more about each other, about
23     people, events and issues, where we live.  An in depth
24     kind of two-way communication.
25  947                  As such, the CBC is a very powerful


 1     means by which we transmit and collect and create
 2     stories from one way to another.  I think the CBC, on a
 3     national level, does that very well, telling stories
 4     from one place for Canadians around the country, and
 5     that those stories are told excellently with the
 6     support of expertise and money and decision-making
 7     power.
 8  948                  But at the same time, we need these
 9     same kinds of efforts in the regions, and specifically
10     in Alberta, where we live, where we work, where we have
11     our friends and family, where we have community.  To do
12     these things we need the money and the expertise and
13     the local decision-making power for these things to
14     happen.  So I believe that there are certain
15     prerequisites for these things to happen:
16  949                  Number one, infrastructure on a local
17     level for the CBC, not skeleton staff.
18  950                  Number two, decision-making power
19     within the region where there are locally designated
20     funds; and, in particular, here in Alberta, an envelope
21     of money.  With that decision-making power there needs
22     to be hands-off decision making within the region so
23     that programs can be decided upon here and in Alberta
24     without that control being taken away from head office.
25  951                  Number three, joint efforts and


 1     independent efforts by local producers, writers,
 2     creative people and technical people.  We need ice
 3     time; we need programming time within the programming
 4     schedule.  As there is very little or no time in the
 5     local programming schedule, we need to have that room
 6     made where we can have programs shown that are made
 7     here and showcased.
 8  952                  Number five, research and development
 9     to support script writing, new ideas and new
10     programming.
11  953                  Number six, the development of
12     people, that is, professional development of
13     professionals within the industry, to assist them in
14     the business and the craft of story telling.
15  954                  This afternoon the Alberta Motion
16     Picture Industry spoke about having envelopes of money
17     and programming time:  specifically,  $2 million a year
18     for indigenous programming, I support that very much;
19     as well as the idea of setting aside programming time. 
20     Both are essential.  But I think there are other
21     prerequisites that are necessary:  an envelope of money
22     for development, an envelope of money for professional
23     development.
24  955                  To support the local community
25     involvement of programming, I would suggest that there


 1     be some kind of arm's-length steering committee from
 2     the community consisting of professionals and community
 3     members with other backgrounds.
 4  956                  I see some of this beginning to
 5     happen since the appointment of a new regional director
 6     in Alberta, and I applaud this; money going towards the
 7     development of new programming, support for the
 8     industry, which includes professional development and
 9     the AMPI awards in Alberta.
10  957                  As well, the new regional director,
11     and the CBC in particular, has given support to other
12     cultural organizations such as the NSI with support for
13     local heroes, and the National Film Board, all of which
14     are very important.
15  958                  Thank you very much.
16  959                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
17     Mr. Lock.
18  960                  MS PINSKY:  The next presenter is
19     Mr. Randy Boissonnault.
20  961                  Okay.  The presenter following that
21     will be Mr. Jason Lucien.
22  962                  I understand that Mr. Web Dussome has
23     arrived.
24     --- Off microphone / Sans microphone
25  963                  MS PINSKY:  I'm sorry; you are at the


 1     table.  Wonderful.  You can begin when it is convenient
 2     for you.
 3     --- Off microphone / Sans microphone
 4  964                  MS PINSKY:  Ms Katherine Weinmann.
 6  965                  MS WEINMANN:  Good evening.
 7  966                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good evening.
 8  967                  MS WEINMANN:  I have just arrived and
 9     I heard just a snippet of your presentation and the
10     gentleman that just preceded me.
11  968                  I come as a citizen of Canada who
12     is -- I don't usually do things like this, but I'm
13     fiercely proud of the quality and the integrity of the
14     CBC.  I am also deeply angered when I see the cuts that
15     have gone on, quite systematically, to something that,
16     as this gentleman spoke to, people around the world
17     value and that people around the world wish to emulate.
18  969                  The Americans that call up and rely
19     on the CBC, particularly the radio, to know that they
20     are going to get objective, real, high-quality
21     journalism, that they are going to find out what is
22     going on in the world, they choose that over what it is
23     that they have as their choices, which would be CNN,
24     whatever it is that Ted Turner or Rupert Murdoch or
25     Conrad Black, or whatever, whatever else is out there


 1     as the alternative.
 2  970                  It frustrates me when I see that the
 3     things that for me make Canada wonderful, that at times
 4     it's like we -- and I'm going to say that as a "we" --
 5     we sell ourselves short and we sell ourselves down the
 6     river on those things.
 7  971                  The CBC for me is something that
 8     really connects me to this country, to a country that
 9     is very large and vast.
10  972                  I remember 20 years ago a friend of
11     mine who said that when he travels across Canada and
12     when he is feeling homesick and disconnected from his
13     family and friends, he knows when he turns on either
14     the CBC radio, AM or FM, or would turn on the
15     television, that he knew that someone in his life would
16     be watching that at the same time, and that that was
17     something that always helped him feel connected, as it
18     does for me, and I think many people -- people who are
19     here using their voice to say how important this is.
20  973                  When I look at -- and what has
21     occurred to me just recently when I take a look at what
22     is occurring with the CBC in terms of the moves towards
23     more privatization, what has occurred to me is that --
24     and perhaps a question that I'm coming to and maybe
25     others have is that this to me appears to be


 1     simultaneous with this country's moving into the NAFTA
 2     agreement, that, to me, I'm struck by -- and I might
 3     have thought there was a coincidence, but I'm beginning
 4     to think that perhaps it isn't a coincidence.
 5  974                  So when we are looking at solutions
 6     and when we are looking at making proposals inasmuch as
 7     what is it that we can do to safeguard and to assure
 8     that something that so many of us value, for me the
 9     solution is that maybe as a country what we really need
10     to look at doing is getting ourselves out of NAFTA. 
11     Maybe what we really need to look at is what the cost
12     has been since we have moved into NAFTA in terms of
13     privatization, in terms of moving towards -- having
14     greater impact, and that the voice of corporations seem
15     to be heard more than the voice of people, people who
16     really matter.
17  975                  What I have just learned is that it
18     is a very simple process.  All we need to do is, as a
19     country, have our government give written notice to the
20     other two parties of the NAFTA agreement and after six
21     months we are free and clear of it.  I didn't realize
22     it was that simple but that is as simple as it is, in
23     that it really does require all of us to say that
24     that's what is important to us, to safeguard what it is
25     that we need to have and what it is that other people


 1     around the world value.
 2  976                  That's really what I needed to say
 3     and I thank you for your time.
 4  977                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 5     much, Ms Weinmann, for coming here tonight.
 6  978                  MS WEINMANN:  Okay.  Thank you.
 7  979                  MS PINSKY:  Mr. Webb Dussome.
 9  980                  MR. DUSSOME:  Thank you very much.
10  981                  Like the previous speaker, I must
11     admit that I haven't done anything like this.
12  982                  I suppose what drives me somewhat to
13     do this type of thing these days is I, besides on a
14     personal level but also as a parent of two very small
15     children -- my children are four years old and one year
16     old -- one of the things that I had to decide as a
17     parent when I had these children were some of the
18     things that I felt were very important to me as an
19     individual that I wished that I could pass on to my
20     children and try to ensure that their future had some
21     of the richness and enjoyment -- and I don't mean it in
22     a monetary sense, I mean it as a cultural and national
23     experience -- that they would have the opportunity to
24     experience.
25  983                  So when I went through that


 1     self-searching, one of the institutions, if you will,
 2     that have been I guess a part of in my life has been
 3     the CBC.  Primarily radio.  I suppose I'm in the
 4     minority to tell you that I don't have cable television
 5     and I'm not particularly interested in having it.
 6  984                  But I guess overall I wanted to make
 7     just a couple of short but very I hope clear points.
 8  985                  The first is that, at the present
 9     time, I'm really not concerned per se with the role
10     that the CBC plays in our country.  As the previous
11     speaker said, one of the things that is extremely
12     important to me as a Canadian is to have a Canadian
13     tell me what is going on in my country and also around
14     the world.  What that means to me is that I see my
15     country as being somewhat different culturally,
16     et cetera, from other English-speaking countries in the
17     world, and it's -- I guess it provides for me perhaps
18     some credibility in listening to, again, the stories
19     told by Canadians from a Canadian perspective.
20  986                  I suppose that I am a little bit
21     disappointed by the impact I think of some of the
22     budget cuts to the CBC.  Some of them I think which
23     would disappoint me the most would be to diminish the
24     service to the point where it becomes -- and I come at
25     it I guess perhaps at a financial level as well --


 1     diminish it to the point where it no longer becomes
 2     financially feasible.  That people would look at it and
 3     say "This isn't financially a viable enterprise."
 4  987                  I don't think that the whole thing
 5     works on dollars and cents because, for me it certainly
 6     doesn't.  One of the points that I would certainly like
 7     to make crystal clear is that if Mr. Chrétien and the
 8     federal government want to spend my tax money on the
 9     CBC, that's fine with me.  I suppose that's one of the
10     things that I would really want to make clear today,
11     that in my mind, spending my tax money on the CBC is a
12     tremendous investment and I would certainly, as a
13     Canadian citizen, wholeheartedly support that.
14  988                  The CBC strength I have always seen
15     is its ability to provide quality as far as national
16     programming.
17  989                  One of the concerns I have with the
18     cuts of course is some of the impacts that I have seen
19     on the regional levels.  With the mix I think of
20     programming, particularly national, that's been
21     effective and interesting to me over the years, the CBC
22     has played a different role.  It has played a role that
23     I don't believe anybody else can play at least at this
24     point in time successfully.
25  990                  As a previous speaker talked about,


 1     NAFTA, one of the things that I think is very key to
 2     the future of information, of culture, et cetera, in
 3     our country.  We recently, in the last few weeks have
 4     been watching the issue related to Bill C-55, et
 5     cetera.  Part of what I see from that, I believe that
 6     there are some positive parts and positive aspects to
 7     globalization.
 8  991                  One of the negative aspects,
 9     certainly, is that other countries, at a certain level,
10     will begin to have some say as to things like split-run
11     magazines, et cetera, and that certainly concerns me
12     individually.
13  992                  But I guess, getting back to my
14     initial point, I have been a CBC particularly radio
15     listener for about the last 20 years.  One of the
16     things which I agreed with the previous speaker is that
17     it has helped bring this country into my home and into
18     me as an individual.
19  993                  My wife and I, a couple of years ago,
20     drove from Edmonton to Quebec City and back.  One of
21     the things that I have really found interesting about
22     that trip, after my years of listening to CBC radio, is
23     that I visited a lot of places I had never been except
24     I felt I had been there before.  That was kind of
25     important to me, and I wouldn't have had that type of


 1     experience.
 2  994                  So I guess to sum up, I don't have
 3     what you -- I don't think that I have a concern
 4     presently with the role of the CBC.  I hope that
 5     funding cuts don't reduce it to sort of a national sort
 6     of specialty off-the-wall kind of entity that will
 7     become financially unviable to the point of not being
 8     in existence any more.
 9  995                  The CBC is important to me.  It's
10     important to my children's future.  The reason why it's
11     important to my children's future again is that I
12     really believe that it has provided me with an
13     opportunity to experience my country, stories told by
14     Canadians.
15  996                  The other thing that I think is
16     important, especially to the future of the CBC, is that
17     technology will continue to play a bigger and bigger
18     role in not just broadcast but all kinds of media. 
19     Again, that perhaps is a bit of a funding issue, but it
20     is important, I believe, for the CBC to be sufficiently
21     funded to be part of that -- by "part of that", I mean
22     with respect to the Internet, globalization, satellite,
23     et cetera.
24  997                  So my hope for the future would be a
25     CBC that continues to provide much of what it provides


 1     today.  When my children are watching CBC television
 2     during the weekdays in the mornings, there is about an
 3     hour or so in there where there isn't any commercials,
 4     and I appreciate that.
 5  998                  So there are lots of things that I
 6     think are possible, so I would come tonight not trying
 7     to pick it apart as much as to provide my wholehearted
 8     support.
 9  999                  Again, if the federal government
10     wants to spend my tax money on the CBC, they have my
11     blessing, and I wish the continued role of the CBC in
12     my life and hopefully the lives of my children will
13     hopefully be assured.
14  1000                 Thanks very much for listening.
15  1001                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much
16     for coming here tonight, Mr. Dussome.
17  1002                 MME PINSKY:  La prochaine
18     intervenante c'est Mme Patricia Rijavec.
20  1003                 MME RIJAVEC:  CHFA, notre radio
21     française en Alberta est le principal lien entre nous,
22     entre nos organismes, entre les différentes communautés
23     françaises.
24  1004                 Notre seule émission
25     franco-albertaine télévisée, Le ce soir, malgré sa


 1     qualité et son importance, n'est qu'une demi-heure
 2     quotidiennement et notre journal français, Le franco,
 3     est un hebdomadaire.
 4  1005                 Grâce à CHFA, nous pouvons donner et
 5     recevoir des nouvelles en français sur ce qui se vit en
 6     français aux quatre coins de notre province.
 7  1006                 En tant qu'organisme regroupant les
 8     comités de parents du préscolaire et du scolaire en
 9     Alberta, nous sommes heureux de la contribution de
10     notre station de radio dans la promotion de nos
11     services et activités.
12  1007                 La couverture d'événements importants
13     dans le domaine de l'éducation français langue première
14     en Alberta, que ce soit par des entrevues, des
15     reportages ou des nouvelles est vitale pour le présent
16     et l'avenir de nos communautés francophones.
17  1008                 Au cours des années, nous avons pu
18     suivre à la radio, au fur et à mesure qu'ils se
19     produisaient, les pourparlers, les efforts et les
20     réussites des parents qui, en étroite collaboration
21     avec les conseil scolaires et de coordination, ont mis
22     sur pied 18 écoles françaises langue première.
23  1009                 Nous avons été tenus au courant des
24     péripéties de l'obtention de la gestion scolaire en
25     1994 et grâce à la vigilance de notre station de radio


 1     nous continuons d'être informés des récents
 2     développements cruciaux dans ce dossier.
 3  1010                 Au-delà des dossiers politiques qui
 4     nous concernent directement, nous avons la chance, avec
 5     Radio-Canada, non seulement de savoir ce qui se passe
 6     chez nous en Alberta mais aussi de faire connaître
 7     notre réalité albertaine au reste du Canada que ce soit
 8     au Café Show le matin, à Parlons-en le midi, à Mag
 9     Ouest en après-midi, à Contacts en fin de journée ou la
10     fin de semaine à Samedi et Dimanche, CHFA est à
11     l'écoute.  Sa dynamique programmation nous garde
12     toujours branchés sur ce qui se passe en français, que
13     ce soit en éducation, en développement communautaire 
14     ou au niveau des activités culturelles.
15  1011                 De plus, Radio-Canada est un
16     partenaire important dans le développement et la
17     promotion de nos jeunes talents régionaux et a toujours
18     donné une place importante à notre culture.  CHFA est
19     un partenaire privilégié de la Fédération des parents
20     francophones de l'Alberta dans ses initiatives de
21     développement.  Pour la FPFA, la promotion de la langue
22     et de la culture françaises est d'une importance vitale
23     en milieu anglais dominant.
24  1012                 Grâce à une programmation française
25     de qualité, CHFA, la station régionale de la radio de


 1     Radio-Canada stimule la fierté d'être francophone et
 2     aide ainsi à contrer l'assimilation.
 3  1013                 Pour grandir il faut se nourrir. 
 4     CHFA nourrit la francophonie.
 5  1014                 Et sur une note un peu plus
 6     personnelle, j'aimerais ajouter que pour notre famille
 7     CHFA est vraiment un membre de la famille.  Pour mon
 8     beau-père -- c'est un des pionniers de la radio quand
 9     il est venu de Sudbury, et grâce à son implication dans
10     la radio dans les premières années, ses enfants ont pu
11     cultiver leur goût de la musique classique et leur
12     fierté de la langue et la culture françaises.
13  1015                 Pour moi, j'ai toujours grandi avec
14     la radio.  Mon grand-père étant immigrant de la France, 
15     et les bistros du coin inexistants, la radio était son
16     fidèle compagnon jusqu'à la mort.  Comme il était un
17     peu sourd vers la fin de ses années, c'était le fidèle
18     compagnon de toute la famille et je suis très heureuse
19     maintenant de pouvoir mettre le poste à CHFA et
20     partager toute la culture et la vitalité de la langue
21     avec mes enfants.
22  1016                 Je vous remercie et en espérant
23     garder CHFA avec nous longtemps.
24  1017                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
25     much, Madame Rijavec.


 1  1018                 MRS. RIJAVEC:  Thank you.
 2  1019                 MS PINSKY:  I'll call again
 3     Mr. Randy Boissonnault.  Is he in the room now?
 4  1020                 Or Mr. Jason Lucien?
 5  1021                 I will just see if any of the other
 6     following people who had registered are here and for
 7     some reason haven't registered at our front desk: 
 8     Ms Laurie Greenwood; Ms Michelle Wilson;
 9     Ms Jenny Frost.
10  1022                 MS PINSKY:  Okay.  You can make your
11     presentation now.  You can begin.
13  1023                 MS FROST:  Good evening.
14  1024                 I have come to talk to you tonight
15     because I wish to express my strong support and
16     appreciation for the CBC, especially the CBC radio.
17  1025                 I work mostly as a stay-at-home
18     mother of three children aged 15, 14 and 11, and in the
19     spaces I can find around that work I write poetry and I
20     perform as a professional storyteller.  So I shall
21     speak to you about CBC, what it has done and continues
22     to do for me in my family life, and also as a member of
23     Edmonton's literary community.
24  1026                 The radio in our house is permanently
25     tuned to the CBC.  When I was single and had more time


 1     I listened to the six o'clock news and As It Happens
 2     virtually every night, and to the FM stations'
 3     wonderful classical music as much as I could.  Now I
 4     don't have that kind of time, but I have the AM station
 5     on mostly for the news and weather and local morning or
 6     afternoon programs as I'm making meals.
 7  1027                 I rely on the radio for news
 8     reporting.  I listen to CBC because its news reporting
 9     is objective and thorough and gives me news from all
10     parts of Canada.  I especially like its periodic
11     in depth coverage of particular issues.  CBC does good
12     documentaries.
13  1028                 Though I don't listen to radio as
14     much as I used to, my oldest son listens a great deal. 
15     Michael is 15 years old and has been a devoted CBC fan
16     for as long as he or I can remember.
17  1029                 Michael was one of those children who
18     always woke up at six o'clock bright eyed and raring to
19     go and I remember the incredible relief my husband I
20     experienced when we found that if we left a peanut
21     butter sandwich by the radio for him, he would happily
22     eat his sandwich and listen to the radio at six o'clock
23     instead of jumping on us in bed.  When we got up at
24     7:00 or 7:30 he would still be listening and would tell
25     us all about what was going on in the city that


 1     morning.  Now, he started doing this when he was three
 2     or four.
 3  1030                 I don't remember when Michael
 4     discovered the Quirks and Quarks program; at least
 5     10 years ago.  That necessitated his being brought home
 6     from ever we were on Saturday noon in time for him to
 7     hear it.  Michael has always loved the Good Questions
 8     feature of the Morning Program, has sent questions into
 9     it, and once one a coffee mug for stumping the experts. 
10     He still wakes up early in the morning and listens to
11     CBC beginning at 5:30 and figures he regularly listens
12     to two hours programming a day, and some days more.
13  1031                 CBC radio is really important for
14     Michael because he has a severe learning disability,
15     which means he learns far more easily from material he
16     hears than material he reads.  All the informational
17     programming he has heard on CBC, the news, the
18     political commentary, the science programs, the
19     interviews with people on every possible subject, have
20     been vital in teaching him about the world he lives in. 
21     In fact, I think he is unusually well informed for a
22     15-year old and I thank the CBC with deep gratitude for
23     that.
24  1032                 You will notice I haven't said a word
25     about television.  That is because I won't have a


 1     television in the house.  This is partly to protect my
 2     children from constantly seeing violence, but mostly
 3     it's because I don't want them exposed to constant
 4     manipulation by commercial advertising.
 5  1033                 When my daughter was two years old,
 6     she came home from my mother's house one day and told
 7     me excitedly, "I saw television."  "Good", I said,
 8     "What did you see?"  "A hair dryer."  Goodness knows
 9     what program she watched.  What she remembered was the
10     hair advertisement.
11  1034                 I tell you this to show you how
12     important it is to me that CBC does not have commercial
13     advertising.  I was horrified to hear there was some
14     possibility that CBC might try to fund some of the
15     programs endangered by budget cuts by finding companies
16     to sponsor them.
17  1035                 I do not want commercial advertising
18     of any sort on CBC ever.  Our world is saturated with
19     advertising.  CBC is one of the few parts of our
20     everyday life that is not tainted by some company's
21     push to make us buy some product.  We all need the
22     contrast of these clear spaces, such as CBC offers, so
23     that we keep on noticing when people are trying to sell
24     us stuff.
25  1036                 The advertising the CBC does do for


 1     local concerts or happenings around time is a valuable
 2     community service.  I commend the CBC for supporting
 3     the community cultural life as they do through their
 4     announcements and/or sponsorship of local events. 
 5     Local groups don't have the money to pay advertising
 6     costs.  Newspaper ads and commercial radio spots are
 7     very expensive, but the events that those groups stage
 8     enrich community life and CBC's support of them makes a
 9     big difference to their success.
10  1037                 For the past two years, I and several
11     other Edmonton storytellers have staged a November
12     storytelling concert called Telebration. 
13     Telebration '97 had a disappointingly small audience
14     despite our attempts to publicize it well. 
15     Telebration '98 had CBC sponsorship free to us and what
16     a difference.  Our audience was five times as big as
17     last year's.  So we thank the CBC for our very
18     successful evening.
19  1038                 When I asked Michael what was the
20     most important reason why we need CBC, he said, because
21     it gives Canadians a chance to hear other Canadians'
22     views.  I agree absolutely.
23  1039                 CBC is a vital force in informing all
24     of us about our country and making us proud to be
25     Canadian.  It is the single, most important force


 1     working for Canadian unity that I can name.  I listen
 2     to CBC because I hear really interesting things about
 3     other Canadians.  I hear about places I know nothing
 4     about and places I know intimately.  Both interest me. 
 5     I think both national and regional programs are equally
 6     important.
 7  1040                 My sister moved to the maritimes for
 8     a year and told me how grateful she was for the
 9     Atlantic regional programming.  She said it taught her
10     about the area she was living in and pointed her in
11     directions she wouldn't have explored on her own
12     because she wouldn't otherwise have known that they
13     were there to explore.
14  1041                 I appreciate that CBC records musical
15     groups across the country so I can hear notable
16     performances from all over Canada.  I feel proud when I
17     see CBC recording our Edmonton orchestra, chamber music
18     or singers and know that this music will be heard
19     country-wide.  The various contests the CBC runs
20     solicit a great deal of creative input from the
21     community, and that's rewarding for both the
22     contributors and the listeners.
23  1042                 It matters to me that Canadians hear
24     the wonderful music, drama, poetry and stories that
25     other Canadians create.  I want my children to grow up


 1     knowing the talent and diversity Canada has to offer
 2     them and to realize there is more to the world than the
 3     slick, cute version offered by Disney.
 4  1043                 The CBC is the single, most important
 5     sponsor and publicizer of Canadian musical and literary
 6     endeavours.  We all need the CBC.
 7  1044                 Finally, I want to say how important
 8     it is that the licensing terms of the CBC spell out
 9     clearly that CBC should be as independent as it can be
10     of whatever government is in power.  I realize
11     government money funds the CBC.  But of course the
12     government does not own that money.  That money belongs
13     to me and other taxpayers, and the government is simply
14     entrusted to manage it for us the way we want it
15     managed.  I want my money provided generously to the
16     CBC.
17  1045                 The CBC must not dwindle into a mere
18     spokesperson for whatever government is currently in
19     Ottawa.  Therefore, its president and board of
20     directors should not be chosen by political
21     appointment, but rather by an independent panel who
22     will choose people for their expertise in broadcasting
23     and management.  There is no hope that any government
24     will stay honest if it doesn't have to face informed
25     and free-voiced criticism.  CBC must have the funding


 1     to stay informed and the autonomy to be able to be that
 2     critical voice and we will all benefit.
 3  1046                 So in summary, then, I support the
 4     CBC because I think it is the single biggest force in
 5     the country promoting Canadian unity and Canadian
 6     culture, and because I think it does a tremendous job
 7     of informing us about Canada.  I listen to it for its
 8     excellent news service, wonderful classical music, and
 9     to hear the voices of Canadians from all over this
10     country.  I'm very grateful to the CBC for how much it
11     has educated my son.
12  1047                 It is very important to me that CBC
13     does not carry commercial advertising of any sort and I
14     urge that its president and board of directors be
15     appointed by an independent panel so CBC can be as
16     autonomous as possible from whatever government is
17     currently in power.
18  1048                 In closing, I would like to thank the
19     CRTC for holding these cross-country hearings and
20     giving me, an ordinary Canadian, this chance to have my
21     views heard.
22  1049                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
23     Ms Frost.
24  1050                 MS PINSKY:  Mr. Ned Toole is the next
25     presenter.


 2  1051                 MR. TOOLE:  (Off microphone/sans
 3     microphone)
 4  1052                 MS PINSKY:  If you can please turn on
 5     the microphone.
 6  1053                 MR. TOOLE:  Oh, is it not on?  I
 7     think I just need to be a little closer.
 8  1054                 Fellow members of the audience who
 9     are CBC supporters, I wish you good evening.
10  1055                 I so wish I could say something
11     inspiring or arresting or original to enhance and
12     further the cause of the Canadian Broadcasting
13     Corporation, but I know all the appropriate things
14     concerning the CBC have been said before, and whatever
15     I can add will at best be a repetition.  Nevertheless,
16     let all those good things about the CBC be said again
17     and again and proclaimed loudly and clearly.
18  1056                 At the outset, I find it strange that
19     the CRTC, the so-called defender of Canada's airwaves
20     and broadcast communications, should be asking the
21     corporation to defend its position by seeking renewal
22     of its licences, should that not be automatic.
23  1057                 Let us trust that such an exercise is
24     a diversionary tactic to give Canadians an opportunity
25     to speak out in defence of this unique broadcaster and


 1     the fabulous asset that we now have.
 2  1058                 When I recall the hours of worthwhile
 3     and edifying entertainment, the knowledgeable
 4     discourse, the inspiring recital of music, even the
 5     good sports reporting that has been provided by the CBC
 6     and to me over 50 years, I must consider it my good
 7     fortune in having such a wonderful fare available.
 8  1059                 On the other side of that coin, the
 9     prospect of losing and not having such wonderful radio
10     and TV programming for my old age is exceedingly
11     daunting.  Where else on the radio and TV dials can one
12     find programming that engages one's mind beyond the
13     juvenile levels?  I ask those of you who travel south
14     of our border to the great bastion of free enterprise
15     and private broadcasting to compare the quality of
16     entertainment and news and political commentary on the
17     U.S. radio or TV.
18  1060                 My associates and travelling
19     companions are quite unanimous in judging that news and
20     commentary is brief, shallow and intensely locally
21     centred in the U.S.A.  May I suggest that those
22     characteristics are the legacy of private ownership
23     with a political bias and an extreme sensitivity for
24     the feelings of advertisers.
25  1061                 The reality of the so-called


 1     censorship chill exercised by powerful, commercial,
 2     financial, industrial and political forces is ever
 3     present in this era of corporate mergers and
 4     amalgamation and so-called globalization.  The
 5     existence of a broadcast medium that can function at
 6     arm's length from or with freedom from such forces is
 7     an essential element in our society.
 8  1062                 Note the existence of Canadian
 9     Air Farce, This Hour Has 22 Minutes, and other similar
10     programs that can laugh and poke fun at our various
11     institutions.  They exist only on CBC and only in
12     Canada.
13  1063                 Even the existence of the CBC in both
14     radio and TV media provides a leadership example and
15     peer pressure on its private enterprise broadcasting
16     counterparts in this country to be more adventuresome
17     and creative than the broadcasters in the U.S.A., which
18     have no similar national comparative examples.
19  1064                 The final point that I, as a
20     listener, wish to make in favour of the CBC,
21     particularly its radio wing, is the practice of dealing
22     with current matters of interest or concern in a
23     reasonable depth and with an allotment of time that
24     allows comprehensive treatment on subjects in order to
25     develop more than a 20-second clip of single dimension


 1     coverage.
 2  1065                 Where else can one find programs like
 3     Quirks and Quarks, Ideas Presents, even Market Place
 4     and David Suzuki?  What wonderful programs.  May they
 5     go on forever and ever.
 6  1066                 I thank all concerned for this
 7     opportunity to support and advance the CBC as an
 8     independent broadcaster for the benefit of Canadians.
 9  1067                 Thank you, ma'am.
10  1068                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
11     Mr. Toole.
12  1069                 MS PINSKY:  The next presenter is
13     Ms Michelle Wilson.
15  1070                 MR. WILSON:  Actually, I'm going to
16     speak.  I'm Mr. Wilson here.  We have the same things
17     to say.
18  1071                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. & Mrs. Wilson.
19  1072                 MR. WILSON:  Yes.
20  1073                 I think in some ways we feel we have
21     come to take your time unnecessarily, because I think
22     we have many of the same things to say that lots of
23     people have said before us, and indeed even the two
24     speakers who we have just heard speak have said before
25     us.  But I suppose we think there is something to be


 1     said for adding to the numbers and putting forth our
 2     general support for these ideas.
 3  1074                 I guess we are here primarily to
 4     defend the CBC radio.  We like the CBC TV, but we see
 5     it as less important in our lives than the radio.  We
 6     place tremendous value on the radio.  We listen to it a
 7     great deal of the time and we are always amazed that we
 8     get such great entertainment for so very little out of
 9     having it there all the time, kind of thing.
10  1075                 I think what I would like to turn to
11     now is to just say a few things about the things we
12     most like about the CBC, and I suppose a few things
13     that we perhaps think are slipping.
14  1076                 We very much like the idea of having
15     a national network.  I think that is terribly important
16     to us.  I'm sure lots of people have said it is
17     terribly important in terms of contributing to national
18     unity, which I agree with.  I think if we all have the
19     same experiences in Canada, this certainly makes us
20     collectively more Canadian.  But I think it is also
21     important just in the sense that we really like to know
22     what is going on elsewhere in Canada.
23  1077                 I think, you know, no other radio
24     station in town, for example, let's us know what is
25     going on in the National Gallery or let's us know what


 1     shows are on in Toronto and Halifax and that sort of
 2     thing.  We certainly find that to be extremely
 3     valuable.
 4  1078                 Second, we very much like the idea
 5     that there are no commercials.  We like it for the
 6     obvious reason that I think most people don't like
 7     listening to commercials, although some of them are
 8     entertaining the first time you hear them I guess.  But
 9     generally we don't like listening to them.
10  1079                 I think, secondly, we feel that the
11     need for a commercial radio station to finance
12     themselves with commercials pushes them in a certain
13     direction, and it pushes them of course into the
14     direction of pleasing people perhaps who have the most
15     purchasing power or are the most susceptible to
16     commercials, or whatever, and it is not obvious that
17     those people are quite in the -- or that the
18     distribution of those people is quite the same as the
19     distribution of other tastes in society.  So we think
20     having a non-commercial station which can appeal to
21     other tastes is quite attractive.
22  1080                 Thirdly, we very much like the mix of
23     programs on the CBC or at least on Radio One.  Most
24     other commercial radio stations tend to specialize in
25     one thing or another, and to us it is very important to


 1     have this mix of programs.  There are music programs,
 2     and of course there are a number of types of programs
 3     that just don't seem to exist anywhere else, things
 4     like As It Happens and Ideas, shows like that which
 5     seem to us to be terribly attractive and which you just
 6     don't see elsewhere.
 7  1081                 I guess we particularly like the mix
 8     of local and national news which we get on Radio One
 9     because other -- you know, in Edmonton I think you
10     particularly need local news.  It is helpful to know
11     what the temperature is in the morning before you go
12     out, and that sort of thing.  Yet we very much, as I
13     have said before, like the national nature of much of
14     the news, et cetera.
15  1082                 The fourth thing I would like to turn
16     to is that we value very highly the quality of the
17     news.  I think the CBC, of all the Canadian networks --
18     or of all the Canadian radio stations, including the
19     other -- I guess there isn't really much in the way of
20     broadly defined radio networks, but puts a lot into
21     having a good news service and we value that very much. 
22     We have an interest in other places in the world, et
23     cetera, and we find that the CBC news is really very
24     attractive.  I think they need to have a national
25     network and need to be supported in that.


 1  1083                 Finally, I guess we like the general
 2     quality and level of the comment or discussion or talk
 3     shows.  I'm not sure what to call them.  Shows like
 4     Basic Black and the Bill Richardson Show, they seem to
 5     be much higher -- the general level of discussion and
 6     comment seems to be much higher than one might get on
 7     other stations.
 8  1084                 Now, I have a list of things to
 9     mention under dislikes, but I think we perhaps don't
10     see those as very important because we are of course
11     pretty strong supporters of the CBC.
12  1085                 I think we feel that despite what we
13     have just said that the quality of the news programs
14     has deteriorated a little.  I think that budget cuts
15     have hit the CBC fairly hard, and we know that one of
16     the ways they have cut their budget is to remove some
17     of their foreign correspondents, and things like that. 
18     We feel that is unfortunate.
19  1086                 I think we also feel that in some
20     ways, particularly the Morning Show here, has moved a
21     little bit towards -- that the local radio station
22     feels it has to compete with the other commercial radio
23     stations, it has to try to bring up its membership in
24     some ways.  I think this has pushed them in the
25     direction of trying to compete a little more by being a


 1     little more -- I'm not quite sure -- folksy or
 2     something like that.  I think we perhaps don't find
 3     that to our tastes.
 4  1087                 Certainly I have spoke to a number of
 5     my friends and colleagues before we came here and I
 6     know a number of people who have been kind of driven
 7     away from Radio One over towards Radio Two.  I suppose
 8     that perhaps that is not too bad from CBC's point of
 9     view.  I guess part of this is the general sort of idea
10     of having more talk show like shows in the sense of
11     inviting the listeners to ring up and that sort of
12     thing.  We feel that that is perhaps not as important
13     as some other things.
14  1088                 I guess lately of course a lot of
15     people must be concerned with the number of repeat
16     shows that the CBC has to have.  The budget cuts have
17     hit them fairly hard.  So even I who am not home all
18     day to listen to the radio or whatever hear more
19     frequently shows that I have heard before.  It is too
20     bad that they are having to do that.  But I guess that
21     is not your concern.  That's the budget people's
22     concern.
23  1089                 Finally, I know the CBC is concerned
24     about the fact that their audience is rather older and
25     they feel they should have younger listeners, but at


 1     the same time I think demography must be on their side
 2     and maybe they shouldn't be so worried about the fact
 3     that they have older listeners.
 4  1090                 Finally, just let me say a little bit
 5     about the TV.
 6  1091                 The TV I think is certainly much less
 7     important to us than the radio.  I think lots of people
 8     have commented on the fact that they feel the CBC has
 9     perhaps misallocated the budget cuts in the sense that
10     they have hit the radio harder than the TV, which we
11     haven't been so happy with.  But I think the TV also
12     provides examples of some of the things that I have
13     been talking about.  The fact that they have to be
14     commercially competitive has meant that their shows are
15     much more like everyone else's shows, as far as I can
16     tell, and that they would be perhaps, at least to me,
17     missed less than with the radio by a far sight.
18  1092                 I do however very much like the CBC
19     Newsworld channel and I support that more.
20  1093                 Which reminds me.  One of the things
21     I think is very good about the CBC radio lately has
22     been this new idea of having all the different foreign
23     broadcasters played through the night and I find that
24     to be very attractive.
25  1094                 Thank you.


 1  1095                 That's all I have to say.
 2  1096                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you both very
 3     much for taking the time and coming down and sharing
 4     your views with us.
 5  1097                 MS PINSKY:  I guess I will check once
 6     again to see if Mr. Randy Boissonnault is here.  Is
 7     Mr. Randy Boissonnault in the room?  No?
 8  1098                 Mr. Jason Lucien?
 9  1099                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  We will take a
10     20-minute break and reconvene at 8:00.
11     --- Recess at 1940 / Suspension à 1940
12     --- Upon resuming at 2000 / Reprise à 2000
13  1100                 MS PINSKY:  Is there anyone wishing
14     to make any comments?
15  1101                 I guess you are the only one.  Do you
16     want to identify yourself, please.
18  1102                 MR. BOISSONNAULT:  My name is Randy
19     Boissonnault.
20  1103                 I must first begin by sending the
21     regrets of my colleague Mr. Jason Lucien, who had every
22     intent of being here and was met with some extenuating
23     circumstances when he returned home from work.  So he
24     will send his comments by written word, as opposed to
25     the spoken word.


 1  1104                 Madam Chairperson, Commission
 2     Members, thank you for allowing me to speak at this
 3     public consultation regarding CBC radio and television.
 4     As a boy, Hockey Night in Canada was a mainstay with my
 5     dad, uncles and grandfather, and the CBC was also our
 6     Sunday night window to The Wonderful World of Disney. 
 7     Since those days, the CRTC has probably renewed the
 8     CBC's licence once or twice.
 9  1105                 As an adult, I now have a different
10     perspective on the CBC, one which supports its mandate
11     and the manner in which it is filling it.  I think the
12     CBC does an admirable job of fulfilling its role as a
13     national broadcaster due to its programming, cultural
14     impact and connection to communities across the
15     country.
16  1106                 At the regional level today the CBC
17     excels, not just as a broadcaster but also as a
18     presence in the community.  As a former student
19     government leader responsible for communicating and
20     promoting student and university issues to the public,
21     I found the CBC's coverage and reports to be the most
22     accurate, balanced and professional of the television
23     and radio outlets.  More recently, I have become a
24     convert to CBC One and Two.
25  1107                 During the Delwin Green(ph) case and


 1     the controversy surrounding the provincial government's
 2     decision to invoke or not invoke the notwithstanding
 3     clause, I turned to CBC radio for the most balanced and
 4     progressive coverage of the matter.  I refused to wake
 5     up in the morning to the opinions of commercial radio
 6     announcers and listeners implying that the province
 7     would careen toward a moral abyss if the government
 8     refused to use the notwithstanding clause.  The CBC
 9     reflected the views of tolerant open-minded Albertans
10     who shared my view that human rights belonged to all
11     members of our society.
12  1108                 When I travel to the lake on the
13     weekends, I enjoy programs ranging from Basic Black to
14     As it Happens.  Upon our return, we tune to Radio Two
15     for a refreshing dose of classical music.
16  1109                 In terms of national coverage in
17     programming, whenever I travel, the first station I
18     look for when settling into a hotel is Newsworld.  I
19     enjoy the range of programs it offers and find the
20     national update it provides to be excellent.
21  1110                 Finally, I prefer The National and
22     The Journal to all other newscasts.  Moreover, I enjoy
23     the fact that I do not require cable to access such
24     high quality programming.
25  1111                 With regard specifically to


 1     programming, Counterspin, The Passionate Eye and
 2     Venture are all examples of programs with an edge that
 3     no private broadcaster would even experiment with. The
 4     town hall meetings and political fora organized by the
 5     CBC add a useful dimension to our collective
 6     conscience.  These are informative valuable programs
 7     and the creative of the CBC in creating and delivering
 8     them is worth keeping.
 9  1112                 In meeting the demands of the future,
10     the CBC has already embraced one of the technologies
11     that will help define the new millennium by creating a
12     high profile Internet site.  The CBC Internet site is
13     the busiest in Canada after  The
14     demographics and draw that this site boasts has led our
15     company to consider purchasing banner ad space on the
16     CBC website out of all other sites out there to
17     diversify our marketing efforts.
18  1113                 As a national broadcaster, I also
19     find it crucial to the integrity of the CBC that Radio
20     Canada International be maintained to provide
21     expatriate Canadians with news and information about
22     home.  While studying in England during the 1995
23     referendum, Radio Canada International fed me and my
24     colleagues the nail-biting information we needed to
25     stay in tune with the developments at home.


 1  1114                 I recommend that the CBC continue
 2     unabashedly with presenting Canadian content, from The
 3     Juneaus to Anne of Green Gables, Wind At My Back and
 4     its quality news programming.  As a viewer, I do not
 5     feel threatened or disappointed when the network
 6     chooses to buy American or international programs to
 7     diversify their ratings.
 8  1115                 I further recommend that the CBC
 9     should continue to produce, develop and promote
10     Canadian programming in general and more specifically
11     programming that reflects different cultures back to
12     the country.
13  1116                 Je suis un ancien de la faculté
14     St-Jean de l'Université de l'Alberta.  Le fait d'avoir
15     un réseau national qui offre des reportages de notre
16     communauté en français est excellent.  En changeant du
17     CBC au RSC il est possible de voir les différences et
18     la similitude des pensées sur les grandes questions
19     politiques de nos jours.
20  1117                 Les événements du Lac Meach, de
21     l'Accord de Charlottetown et de l'Union sociale je les
22     ai suivis par les réseaux et les pensées de gens ici en
23     Alberta et au Québec en sautant d'un poste à l'autre.
24  1118                 This is the power of the CBC, to
25     reflect the pulse of Canada's linguistic duality and


 1     cultural diversity at a click of a remote control
 2     button.
 3  1119                 I see the importance of providing
 4     French news to the community to show itself what it has
 5     accomplished in a province that is largely anglophone. 
 6     Could TVA-TV5 provide the same reflection?  Certainly. 
 7     I applaud their arrival on the scene.  The competition
 8     and increased coverage will be welcome.
 9  1120                 But this private network will not
10     necessarily bring to Edmonton a dimension that
11     CHFR-CBXFT offers now, which is their connection to the
12     community.
13  1121                 For example, I sing with the Faculty
14     St. Jean choir.  This fall we are completing a 50th
15     anniversary compact disc project conceived by the choir
16     leaders and senior CBC staff.  The project was born out
17     of the relationship the staff have to this community.
18     With a talented producer and expert technicians from
19     CHFA, we are producing a disc that will celebrate not
20     only our current success as a choir, but also the
21     presence and dynamism of the francophone community here
22     in Alberta.
23  1122                 That is a powerful message for the
24     community and for the country.  The CBC has played and
25     continues to play a crucial role in this and other


 1     similar projects. 
 2  1123                 I heartily recommend the renewal of
 3     the CBC licence.  I look forward to improving the
 4     nation's public broadcasting network well into the
 5     future.  The size of the CBC's budget, how it spends
 6     it, and how many buildings it occupies is a matter for
 7     the political process and meetings similar to this, but
 8     designed to address the future shape of the CBC.
 9  1124                 I encourage the CBC and the
10     government to demonstrate increased leadership and
11     stewardship in providing  Canadians with a public
12     broadcaster that reflects our accomplishments, our
13     struggles and our choices as a society to the entire
14     country.
15  1125                 Thank you very much.
16  1126                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
17     Boissonnault.
18  1127                 MS PINSKY:  Is there anybody else in
19     the room who would like to make a presentation?
20     --- Pause / Pause
21  1128                 MS PINSKY:  I will just ask again: 
22     Is there anybody else in the room who would like to
23     make a presentation?
24  1129                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  I think what we
25     will do then, if we have nobody else here who is


 1     presenting -- we are expecting perhaps some people as
 2     late at 9 o'clock, but I would invite the CBC, if they
 3     would like to reply, to do it now; or we can wait until
 4     nine.  It is their choice.
 6  1130                 MR. ORCHARD:  Thank you.  I think I
 7     will reply now, because I think the chances of speaking
 8     to more of the people who have made the effort to come
 9     out tonight is considerably greater if I address now.
10  1131                 My name is Don Orchard.  I am the
11     Regional Director for Radio for Alberta.  My colleague
12     for television, Mr. Joe Novak, is in the room next door
13     listening to what people are saying in that room.  We
14     have colleagues here from CHFA and other CBC services
15     as well.
16  1132                 What I would like to do is thank
17     everyone who has made the effort to come out tonight. 
18     The support expressed has been gratifying.  The
19     concerns articulated are something that I will speak
20     about in a moment, and the ideas that were offered also
21     give us some pause for thought.
22  1133                 I came here essentially to listen to
23     try and determine more about what we do that is right
24     that you like and more about what we do that you feel
25     needs to be improved upon.  In radio and television we


 1     face considerable challenges.  I will only speak for
 2     radio.  I know that over the last number of years we
 3     have had our budget reduced by almost 30 per cent, and
 4     it means that we have  had to re-engineer the way that
 5     we build our product.  We have had to re-educate and
 6     re-skill our workforce.  It has been a giant cultural
 7     leap, if you will, to turn ourselves inside out to try
 8     and maintain quality and to try and maintain service.
 9  1134                 That said, I am really optimistic
10     because much of that hard work is behind us and we are
11     now beginning to see some benefit from it.  I have
12     heard references to quality, and that is something that
13     Joe and I and others are working on constantly.
14  1135                 We are also working to expand
15     service.  Television, for example, in Calgary has a
16     brand new supper hour show that will go to air as soon
17     as the current labour difficulties are behind us.  A
18     brand new revised Edmonton supper hour show is also
19     ready to go to air.
20  1136                 In radio we now have local newscasts
21     every hour.  We have expanded the amount of local
22     coverage and local material that we produce and ship to
23     the network and therefore is consequently heard by
24     Canadians.  It is all about Alberta.  We also have
25     expanded our areas of coverage to Grand Prairie and


 1     Lethbridge in the last year, and we have additional
 2     plans for improving coverage of the region and
 3     extending coverage to weekends and evenings, all the
 4     things that we can make happen to serve listeners in
 5     this province as soon as we go through the learning
 6     curve of working with the new resource level.
 7  1137                 There is an important vehicle that we
 8     provide for you outside of this one that I want to make
 9     sure you are aware of.  The CBC has an ombudsman's
10     office which will respond in a fair and balanced manner
11     to any concerns that you have about the product that we 
12     produce and any CBC outlet, French, radio, television,
13     anywhere you call we can give you that number and you
14     can use that vehicle.
15  1138                 I would like to thank the CRTC as
16     well for making this forum possible.  It has been
17     informative for me and heartening, and I thank each and
18     every one of you for coming out and showing the will
19     and making the expressions that you did tonight.
20  1139                 We will be following up on all of the
21     concerns that you have expressed in whole, and we will
22     be following up with you individually as well, to ask
23     you questions, if there are things that we don't think
24     we fully comprehend.
25  1140                 Thank you very much.


 1  1141                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 2     much.
 3  1142                 I think what I will do is make some
 4     remarks, not concluding remarks.  I certainly would
 5     invite any of you who want to wait to wait until 9
 6     o'clock.  However, I realize that many of you want to
 7     be on your way.  I think we have two more presenters
 8     scheduled who have not yet appeared.
 9  1143                 I would like to thank the CBC but
10     also to all the people who appeared here today and in
11     fact all across the country to share their views with
12     us about the CBC.
13  1144                 As I mentioned earlier, we will be
14     issuing a Public Notice later this month with respect
15     to the hearings we are holding in Hull on the 25th of
16     May regarding the terms and conditions of the CBC's
17     licence renewals for both radio and television.
18  1145                 There will be an opportunity at that
19     time for anybody who is interested to submit written
20     comments to us.  The deadline for written submissions
21     is the 30th of April.  I invite anybody to do it.
22  1146                 Once again, I would like to thank
23     everybody who has come out.  It certainly is very
24     informative and helpful to those of us at the CRTC and
25     Commission to hear the views of Canadians on this and


 1     on many other topics.  Whenever we do these
 2     consultations, they are very enlightening, informative,
 3     and remind us why it is we do what we do and why it is
 4     we enjoy what we do.
 5  1147                 I would also like to thank at this
 6     point the translators, although we need to keep you on
 7     duty for a while; and the technical people; the court
 8     scenographer; and the staff.  Thank you very much.
 9  1148                 As I say, I invite you all to stay in
10     the event that more presenters show up.
11     --- Pause / Pause
12  1149                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes, sir.
13     --- Off microphone / Sans microphone
14  1150                 MS PINSKY:  What this proceeding is
15     looking into is the applications on the renewal. 
16     Basically, the Commission can only exercise the powers
17     that it has under Statute, and under that statute for a
18     CBC licence to be revoked -- in other words, not to be
19     renewed -- 
20  1151                 The Commission does not have the
21     power to do that unless there is actually the consent
22     of the CBC.
23  1152                 What this proceeding is about, as
24     Commissioner Grauer just said, is looking at the terms
25     and conditions of the renewal; looking at perhaps the


 1     term of the renewal, as well as more programming
 2     issues.  In fact, the Public Notice that Commissioner
 3     Grauer referred to that will be coming out at the end
 4     of the month will be identify the specific issues that
 5     will be at issue in that proceeding that the Commission
 6     will consider.
 7  1153                 You may want to take a look at that
 8     Public Notice, because it will give you a better idea
 9     of the issues that are being considered.  I understand
10     that all of the participants in these consultations
11     will be receiving a copy of the Public Notice.
12  1154                 MR. ORCHARD:  Just one quick
13     question, if I may, and I will use this so that others
14     can hear me.
15  1155                 If people choose to direct a letter
16     to the CRTC, is there any special sort of
17     identification that has to accompany that letter so
18     that it gets to the right file?
19  1156                 MS PINSKY:  That's a good point.  I
20     think it would be helpful if the intervenor filling our
21     the form or writing the letter directs their comments
22     to a specific application.  The applications that will
23     be considered are the TV network, the CBC TV networks,
24     the CBC TV owned and operated stations, the radio
25     network, specialty services Newsworld and RDI.  I think


 1     that is it.
 2  1157                 The Public Notice will identify the
 3     specific applications, and the address where you should
 4     send the intervention will be in that Public Notice.
 5  1158                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  I think there is a
 6     kit -- if most of you don't have it, it should be
 7     available at the desk -- which gives you information
 8     about the CRTC, our processes and how to write to us
 9     and express your views.
10  1159                 Thank you.
11  1160                 MS PINSKY:  It looks like we have
12     another presenter, Ms Nicolette Saina.
14  1161                 MS SAINA:  I just got here, so I need
15     to catch my breath.
16  1162                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Take your time.
17  1163                 MS SAINA:  First of all, I would like
18     to thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak
19     here.  I think it is a very Canadian exercise and I am
20     very happy to be a part of it.
21  1164                 I would like to cover five things: 
22     first of all, who I am; what is disturbing me re the
23     CBC; what is important to me; what the CBC has done for
24     me as a producer; and what I would like to see on the
25     CBC.


 1  1165                 First of all, who I am:  I grew up in
 2     Edmonton and have lived here all through my childhood
 3     life and most of my adult life.  I have also resided
 4     for short stints in Melbourne, Australia, Chicago,
 5     Illinois and Calgary.  I am an independent television
 6     producer based here in the city, and I would like to
 7     speak with that hat on.  But I am also speaking to you
 8     today as a mother of a teenager, as an Edmontonian, an
 9     Albertan and a very proud Canadian.
10  1166                 I approach my business very
11     entrepreneurially.  I am open to the entire world for
12     business opportunities, yet I am very committed to
13     always reserving a solid chunk of my time and energy
14     toward creating distinctively Canadian programs.
15  1167                 Three of the shows that I have
16     produced from here in Edmonton over the past six years
17     have aired on national prime time CBC, all on Canada
18     Day, and they have been financed from a variety of
19     sources:  public, private, corporate and my own
20     personal money.
21  1168                 But before I jump into the CBC of our
22     future, I would like to touch on my second point, which
23     is what is disturbing me about the CBC.
24  1169                 I have just come back from a long
25     business trip.  I was in Chicago and New York meeting


 1     with corporate sponsors for a PBS special that I have
 2     produced and directed and that is airing in a few
 3     months in the United States.  The deeper I got into the
 4     jungles of corporate America, the more Canadian I
 5     became.  I was really looking forward to coming here
 6     and speaking today, mostly on the direction of the CBC. 
 7     But I was disturbed to come home to news of a serious
 8     labour unrest, and when I caught up on my national
 9     print reading I woke up to the disturbing reality that
10     CBC has few friends n Ottawa and in the rest of the
11     media.
12  1170                 This bugs me because the CBC could be
13     inching toward the point of no return, and some of what
14     I am reading in the newspapers, in my opinion, is not
15     balanced or fair reporting.
16  1171                 Unfortunately, to the average
17     Canadian, they will just ingest this into their brains
18     as truth, but to someone like myself it looks as though
19     they haven't done their homework and they clearly have
20     a bias.
21  1172                 I would just like to address a couple
22     of the negative things I have been reading in the print
23     media.
24  1173                 First of all, I have read on three
25     separate occasions in national media just the notion of


 1     $750 million thrown at one spot on the dial and oh, my
 2     God, we only have less than 10 per cent of English TV
 3     viewing audience.  That could also be phrased as 7
 4     cents a day, less than the cost of one cheap pair of
 5     shoes per year.
 6  1174                 Also, the 9.6 share which they are
 7     purporting to be bad -- they are saying it as if it
 8     were a bad thing.  But it is actually quite a good
 9     thing, and I would like to put that into perspective.
10  1175                 PBS's average prime time household
11     rating is 2.1 with each rating point representing
12     approximately 1 million television households in the
13     U.S., or 1 per cent out of a total of 100 million TV
14     households in the Nielsen universe.
15  1176                 That is 2.1 million TV households on
16     an average evening tunes in to PBS, so their average
17     audience share is a slightly larger number.  But it is
18     not even close to that of CBC's at 10 per cent.
19  1177                 Actually, statistically, CBC is
20     closer to the audience ratings and share of Fox and NBC
21     and the other major networks than we are of PBS.
22  1178                 I dug up some stats from January of
23     1998, and I looked at Fox, for instance, who is in
24     fourth place.  They had a 12 share.  These numbers are
25     actually lower than that, because all broadcasters at


 1     face drops.
 2  1179                 The whole notion that CBC is closer 
 3     in audience share to Fox and CBS and NBC than it is to
 4     PBS, to me, was quite interesting.  So the 9.6 per cent
 5     that the CBC is attracting is actually an incredible
 6     number, given that in the world of public broadcasting
 7     I think the CBC is faring very well considering that
 8     they are swimming in a sea of more and more channel
 9     options.  And given that 90 per cent of their
10     programming is fully Canadian fare, I think it is
11     amazing.
12  1180                 I think that there is only a small
13     handful of North American broadcasters who have seen
14     their numbers slightly increase, or stay the same, and
15     CBC is among them.
16  1181                 CTV's average prime time audience
17     share is only slightly higher.  And considering that
18     they air a lot of U.S. programming, I think the results
19     of CBC's numbers are clear evidence that Canadians want
20     to tune into a voice that speaks to them and that
21     reflects their reality.
22  1182                 Another thing that bothers me, in
23     catching up on my reading, is the whole notion that
24     with a pizza dish 500-channel world, do we really need
25     the CBC.  I feel that in our increasingly global world,


 1     Canadians more than ever need solid cultural
 2     institutions like the CBC, all the while welcoming
 3     different perspectives of reality from all parts of the
 4     world to help us increase our understanding and respect
 5     for those who are different than us in every way, which
 6     is very much a part of the Canadian psyche.
 7  1183                 This opening up to the world should
 8     never be at the expense of our own identity.  It is
 9     also important to note that we are not unique as a
10     country in this concern, this cultural imperialism
11     concern.  Clearly, no country possibly could survive
12     intact from the cultural onslaught of stuff that we
13     have had from the U.S.  I think we are a very hardy
14     bunch to be where we are at, actually.
15  1184                 My third topic is:  What is important
16     to me at the CBC?
17  1185                 I think CBC as a news source in
18     general, both radio and TV, is very important to me.
19     When I hear stories about CBS's respected 60 Minutes
20     killing a story on the tobacco industry because of a
21     Philip Morris advertising stranglehold, or ABC killing
22     a story investigating reports of paedophilia at
23     Disneyland because Disney owns ABC, I think to myself: 
24     Thank God for the CBC.  Let's never have situations
25     like that in Canada.  Let's keep our safe haven of


 1     integral news that CBC provides and let's stand on
 2     guard for it.
 3  1186                 This is not to take away from the
 4     quality of journalism at, say, 60 Minutes.  But there
 5     are higher forces that exist that the average person
 6     may not be aware of.
 7  1187                 At this time I would like to make a
 8     similar point with other Canadian broadcasters related
 9     to programming.  I have dealt with several private
10     sector broadcasters, such as CFCF in Montreal and CFRN
11     here in Edmonton, and they are all wonderful Canadians,
12     and this comment is not a reflection of who they are or
13     their values as individuals.
14  1188                 But the fact remains that when your
15     primary obligation when creating news or programming is
16     to shareholders' ratings, maximizing advertising
17     revenues and profits in general, sometimes these
18     journalists and broadcast decision-makers can find
19     their well-intentioned hands tied by forces that we
20     can't see.
21  1189                 Another thing that is important to me
22     is the local newscasts.  There is a new show introduced
23     in September, and I know stations across the country
24     have introduced new local newscasts which have been
25     quite polished and are receiving favourable reviews. 


 1     But I feel that the momentum that is being built has
 2     only being crippled by the recent strike.
 3  1190                 I just read an article today by Doug
 4     Saunders of The Globe and Mail comparing the 1996 shows
 5     and the 1999 shows.  He feels that they are markedly
 6     different, as I do too.  I can't speak on behalf of
 7     other cities, but I can certainly comment on Edmonton,
 8     and he was commenting on Vancouver and Winnipeg, saying
 9     that the shows are sober, smart, classy, modelled after
10     The National, blah, blah, blah, and that in many
11     cities, including Vancouver, the ratings have risen.
12  1191                 I feel that they are heading in the
13     right direction with their audiences, and those
14     audiences will build in time.
15  1192                 In my experience in Canada in a
16     variety of different capacities, I know that everybody
17     wants to work for the CBC in journalism.  It is the
18     cream of the crop.  It is the most respected, best
19     quality of journalism.
20  1193                 What I see here in Edmonton is a
21     group of very talented integral journalists who are
22     crippled by the deep cuts.  Their morale has been
23     damaged.  How do you get the best out of people who
24     don't have the tools to do their job?
25  1194                 No one can criticize CBC for too much


 1     fat right now.  They have been on a fat-free diet for
 2     quite a while.  Just like our bodies, I think a little
 3     bit grease to function properly is a necessity.
 4  1195                 I think the local newsrooms
 5     specifically need a healthy equal to industry standard
 6     environment in which their significant talents can
 7     flourish.
 8  1196                 The first topic is what the CBC has
 9     done for me as a producer.
10  1197                 Six or seven years ago I did a little
11     production with my nine-year-old son at the time.  It
12     was something that I paid for out of my own pocket.  We
13     went across the country, and he interviewed 42 other
14     nine-year-olds from all walks of life:  rich, poor,
15     black, white.  He interviewed them, and they chatted
16     about things like the difference between Americans and
17     Canadians, what they liked best about Canada, blah,
18     blah, blah.
19  1198                 As I said, I initially paid for this
20     out of my own pocket.
21  1199                 I was very fortunate to attract the
22     co-production partnership of the NFB after I came back
23     to Edmonton.  My big dream is to have just one national
24     airing.  I thought Canadians would be interested and
25     amused by this, because it is actually quite funny and


 1     provocative.  They had some interesting little pearls
 2     of wisdom.
 3  1200                 My first meeting was at CTV in
 4     Toronto, and they didn't find merit in it.  Their
 5     concerns were about ratings, audiences, advertising, et
 6     cetera.  But the CBC went on to embrace it.  They
 7     helped reshape it for their TV audience.
 8  1201                 To make a very long story short, it
 9     is now the top selling educational video in Canada. 
10     Six or seven years later, it is still a big-time
11     seller.  It has had 50 airings on a variety of public
12     and private stations.  It is used in Japan and France,
13     at political science classes in universities that study
14     how countries politically socialize at their level, and
15     how the national psyches of children are developed at
16     that level.
17  1202                 We went on to a second version, which
18     was just aired in 1998, where we revisited those same
19     kids as 14-year-olds.  They were five years older.  We
20     did flashbacks: how did they Canada had changed, and
21     all this stuff.  That version the Royal Bank of Canada
22     contributed, in portion, to the financing, and they
23     bought a couple of videos for every school board in
24     Canada, which were just distributed a month or so ago.
25  1203                 I loved the idea that different


 1     sectors of Canadian society could work together to get
 2     every school board in Canada access to teenagers and
 3     kids discussing things like Canadian identity, blah,
 4     blah, blah.
 5  1204                 I am only mentioning all of this
 6     because it was certainly the CBC that provided me with
 7     that leg up, and I would not be doing what I am
 8     doing -- it created a career for me essentially.
 9  1205                 I also have to add that the PBS show
10     I am doing is also a result of this kid's view of
11     Canada thing.  An American producer approached me and
12     said they wanted to do the same thing in the United
13     States and would I direct it and be a part of it.
14  1206                 We travelled to 50 states and chatted
15     with 100 10-and-11-year-olds, and it is airing in a few
16     months.
17  1207                 What is so interesting to me is that
18     we asked the same questions in Canada and the United
19     States to these kids, and they answered questions
20     differently.
21  1208                 For instance:  What do you like best
22     about America?  Kids unanimously said freedom; like
23     Pavlov's dog, just freedom.  In Canada, the kids said
24     instantly things like:  I like that it's safe and it's
25     peaceful here.


 1  1209                 I couldn't help but think:  Do you
 2     really have freedom if you don't feel safe?  And if you
 3     are 100 times more likely to be a victim of a random
 4     act of violence in the United States, and there are
 5     more guns than people in that country, it is little
 6     wonder that the kids answered the way they did.
 7  1210                 Anyway, it taught me a lot about
 8     being a better human being and that maybe my own overt
 9     patriotism is actually sort of a dangerous thing.  So I
10     think it was a good thing to go through that.  It is
11     very important to me to preserve, perpetuate the gentle
12     good feelings about what it means to be a Canadian.
13  1211                 My fifth topic is what type of
14     programming I would like to see on the CBC.
15  1212                 There is some statistic about kids
16     before they are in grade 12 seeing something like
17     100,000 acts of violence on their television sets.  I
18     kind of like the idea of the CBC -- which I think there
19     already are that, to a large extent.  But for them to
20     be quality TV, value oriented, where we know it is a
21     safe place, where we are not going to worry about that
22     sort of thing.  I like the idea of them continuing to
23     take risks with programming but not with our younger
24     viewers.  So take those lines very clear where their
25     risk taking starts and stops.


 1  1213                 Lastly, what I think should be done
 2     in general is that more regional programming air time
 3     and development dollars would be a condition of their
 4     licence renewal, so that would leave room for
 5     innovation and experimenting.
 6  1214                 Dale Phillips from AMPIA spoke
 7     earlier, and I don't have to repeat what he said.  He
 8     said it well.
 9  1215                 I would like, in general, just a
10     little bit more grease.  As I said earlier, not a
11     fat-free radio and TV and news diet, but just a light
12     fat diet where just a little bit more grease so they
13     can do their jobs properly, everyone in the CBC.  And
14     just maybe a little bit more work on the perception of
15     the CBC and clearly defining the roles so that
16     Canadians -- the two questions, what does it cost and
17     what are we getting; that Canadians are clear on that.
18  1216                 If Canadians like and respect CBC as
19     I do, on masse, they will feel that their seven cents a
20     day has clear value.
21  1217                 That's all I have to say.  Thank you.
22  1218                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Ms
23     Saina, and congratulations on the success of your
24     shows.
25  1219                 MS SAINA:  Thank you.


 1  1220                 MS PINSKY:  Ms Valerie Warke is the
 2     next presenter.
 3                                                        2040
 4  1221                 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:  I am having
 5     great difficulty hearing.  Is there anything you can do
 6     about that?
 7  1222                 MS PINSKY:  Yes.  Perhaps the
 8     presenters can put the mic closer and the technician
 9     will turn up the sound.
10     --- Pause / Pause
12  1223                 MS WARKE:  Thank you and good
13     evening.  I appreciate the opportunity to have a chance
14     to share what the CBC means in my life.
15  1224                 I know you have been listening for
16     many hours, and you have heard many stories; but I
17     think for each of us the CBC is something very
18     personal.  I am just here to tell you what it means to
19     me.
20  1225                 I know that four generations of my
21     family have been enlightened and entertained and
22     nurtured by the CBC.  I am sure that one of the first
23     melodies I ever sang as a child was the theme to
24     Rawhide.  I remember it very well.
25  1226                 My days now begin and end with CBC


 1     radio.  It starts with Edmonton AM in the morning so I
 2     can catch the news, the weather and all the latest
 3     happenings, and it ends, if I can manage, after my day
 4     of teaching, to stay awake that long, with Ideas and
 5     Between the Covers, which is one of my favourites.
 6  1227                 If you were to go on a radio tour of
 7     my life, you would find in the bedroom Radio One set
 8     for that Morning Show; in the livingroom on the stereo
 9     is Radio Two.  I am still trying to get used to this
10     Radio One and Two; but the FM for Choral Concert, Take
11     Five, Jazz Beat, all those favourite shows.  In the
12     kitchen is back to Radio One for Edmonton PM when I get
13     home from work, and the news and As it Happens, which I
14     can't imagine getting through the day without.
15  1228                 I had that experience a couple of
16     weeks ago when the batteries in my radio died.  It was
17     terrible for a few days to have to reorganize my life.
18  1229                 In the car, of course, is switching
19     back and forth all the time from one to the other,
20     depending on the day and the hour and where I am.  If
21     it is Saturday morning, it will be Arthur Black; if it
22     is Sunday afternoon, it will be Cross Canada Check-Up,
23     and so on.
24  1230                 I am sure you are much the same.
25  1231                 I feel that there are two major


 1     functions served by CBC radio which just cannot be
 2     replaced by any other forum.  First of all, CBC links
 3     us from coast to coast to coast in this vast country of
 4     ours.  It is a bond between family; in my case from
 5     Victoria to Quebec.  Yours may be farther spread.  We
 6     know that we are listening to the same shows.  I phone
 7     my sister in Ottawa --
 8  1232                 In fact, last Easter I had the
 9     privilege of being with her at a live broadcast of
10     Choral Concert.  I know neither of us will forget that
11     experience.
12  1233                 It connects not only families but
13     friends.
14  1234                 I just have a short story to relate
15     about a time several years ago when my husband and I
16     were on our way to Toronto, then to drive to Guelph to
17     visit my father who was critically ill.  We had had one
18     of those Murphy's law days, trying to get the flight,
19     trying to get there, renting a car, traffic in Toronto,
20     finding our way on the 401, going the wrong way and
21     then back to the right way.  And finally, we were out
22     of enough traffic on our way to Guelph that we could
23     start to punch the radio dials in the rented car, and
24     we flipped through the usual advertising and country
25     music and all the rest and then suddenly the voice of


 1     Alan Maitland came across the airwaves reading a
 2     Stephen Leacock story -- My Financial Career, I think
 3     it was -- and suddenly the world seemed to make sense
 4     again to us.  It was like coming home.  Both of us just
 5     felt this link and connection because of what we were
 6     listening to.
 7  1235                 The second major significance in my
 8     life for the CBC is that it provides a vehicle for the
 9     expression and enjoyment of Canadian arts and culture
10     and for the preservation of our diverse and rich
11     heritage.  Where else are we going to hear coverage of
12     Nunavut, for example, or hear about the concerns of our
13     aboriginal people?
14  1236                 Local, provincial and national
15     writers and actors and singers and instrumentalists we
16     can enjoy.  They have a chance to be heard, to perform
17     for an audience, and to be appreciated.
18  1237                 I have tuned in to hear Friends and
19     Family with the Edmonton symphony, the U of A Madrigal
20     Singers, sax man P.J. Perry(ph) on Katie Mallack's(ph)
21     show Pro Choral Canada(ph).  These are artists of first
22     rate calibre that we would not hear without CBC radio.
23  1238                 This music is a huge part of my life
24     and I am sure of yours.
25  1239                 I am a teacher of grade 6, and today


 1     one of the words on our spelling list was "opinion". 
 2     So I gave it in a sentence saying that this evening I
 3     was coming to give my opinion about the CBC, and my
 4     students got quite excited about this.  I found there
 5     were some CBC fans of the future there.  So I said to
 6     them that if they would like, they could write their
 7     opinion and leave a card for me to read.  So I chose
 8     three.  I hope I have time to share them.
 9  1240                 The first is a young girl, 12, who
10     says:
11                            "I think you should keep the CBC
12                            television channel because I
13                            really like the programs you
14                            have like your movies, 'Road to
15                            Avonlea' and my favourite, 'The
16                            Simpsons'.  My dad really likes
17                            hockey, but if you take CBC away
18                            he will have to turn to a
19                            different station.  So please
20                            don't take it away."  (As read)
21  1241                 This one is from an 11-year-old
22     cellist:
23                            "Classical music could be lost
24                            forever!  My mom wouldn't have
25                            anything to listen to on the way


 1                            to work, and we would all miss
 2                            listening to 'Quirks and Quorks'
 3                            on the weekend."
 4  1242                 And Jeff finishes:
 5                            "I think the federal government
 6                            should keep funding CBC radio
 7                            and television.  I like CBC
 8                            radio because it has a lot of
 9                            interesting and funny programs
10                            on the air and it keeps us
11                            connected to the rest of
12                            Canada."  (As read)
13  1243                 Believe me, this was not nurtured by
14     me at all.  Just the word "opinion" was said.
15                            "It is nice to hear things from
16                            different parts of our country. 
17                            When I wake up in the morning,
18                            it is always good to hear the
19                            news before I leave for school. 
20                            The television station is great
21                            too.  It has a lot of great
22                            programs as  well, like 'Air
23                            Farce'.  It is Canada's national
24                            TV and radio network, so don't
25                            take it away.  I think there is


 1                            nothing to take the place of the
 2                            CBC."  (As read)
 3  1244                 Thank you.
 4  1245                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you. And I
 5     think you can reassure your students that we are here
 6     to discuss the terms and conditions of renewal, so they
 7     can be assured that there will be hockey for dad.
 8  1246                 MS WARKE:  Thank you.
 9  1247                 MS PINSKY:  Ms Joan Kneshe is the
10     next presenter.
12  1248                 MS KNESHE:  Like Valerie, I just want
13     to speak about the CBC from a very personal point of
14     view.
15  1249                 After my university degrees were
16     over, I felt like my education was continuing through
17     what I read myself and through what the CBC could offer
18     to me.
19  1250                 I recently read a book by Sandra
20     Sasneros(ph), a Mexican-American writer, who talked
21     about a boy on the street who always had a harmonica in
22     his mouth.  She didn't ever hear him play it, but he
23     just breathed in and out through this harmonica.  When
24     I read that, I felt like this is what the CBC was for
25     me:  it was part of my breathing in and my breathing


 1     out.
 2  1251                 You push a button and you have
 3     Writers and Company and where else would you hear about
 4     an Egyptian writer that was jailed under Sudat's
 5     government and ends up writer in residence at Duke
 6     University.  You push a button and you have As It
 7     Happens, and where else would you hear about the people
 8     that you only read about in the news.
 9  1252                 On Sunday afternoon you have Rex
10     Murphy's sardonic wit mixed with the chance for
11     Canadians to air their opinions in all their diversity.
12  1253                 There is Quirks and Quarks, which
13     would satisfy your scientific interests and more.  You
14     can laugh with Stewart McLean over the Canadian
15     Experience.
16  1254                 Sunday morning is like the cultural
17     umbilical chord that connects me coast to coast with
18     other Canadians.
19  1255                 There is Saturday Afternoon at the
20     Opera.  Where else could you have opera in your kitchen
21     on a Saturday afternoon?
22  1256                 My day always ends with Ideas.  Where
23     else could you push a button and hear a Massey lecture?
24  1257                 Thank you.
25  1258                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very


 1     much.
 2  1259                 MS PINSKY:  Ms Marlyn Wall is the
 3     next presenter.
 4     --- Off microphone / Sans microphone
 5  1260                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes, by all means. 
 6     And you might want to put on both mics.  I gather it is
 7     a performance you have, is it?
 9  1261                 MS WALL:  We just have a short
10     introduction.  Thank you for having us.  It is a
11     wonderful opportunity.
12  1262                 Like an adolescent, Canada struggles
13     for its identity, and we believe that the CBC plays an
14     integral part in defining that identity, binding us
15     together in our diversities.
16  1263                 We are the Faded Blues.  Anita
17     Knorborg is a secretary.  She was raised nears Olds,
18     Alberta.  Marlene Rankel is a psychologist.  She was
19     raised at Flin Flon, Manitoba.  I am Marlyn Wall, and I
20     am a retired nurse.  I was raised at Shaunavon,
21     Saskatchewan.  That is near Eastend.
22  1264                 Each of us was born the same year as
23     the CBC, 1936.  Growing up, our lives were very
24     influenced in those small towns by the CBC in each of
25     the Prairie provinces.  And like children across the


 1     country, we became very familiar with the tune English
 2     Country Gardens that was played every day on the CBC. 
 3     We think it was for the noon show, but we are not quite
 4     sure which program that was.
 5  1265                 So, in 1996, as part of the CBC's
 6     sixtieth year celebration, we wrote a little song about
 7     the valuable CBC, to the tune of English Country
 8     Gardens.  We think our song addresses your four
 9     questions.
10  1266                 Here's our song.
11  1267                 I am sure that some of you are about
12     our age and will remember the tune, so we invite you to
13     join us.  We could do it twice if you want to get to
14     know it well.
15     The Faded Blues:
16     How many years have we been around
17     Sixty two just like the CBC
18     We'll tell you now it's the most familiar sound
19     Reaching everyone, from sea to sea
20     Recall Don Messer's Jubilee
21     The Happy Gang and Fibber McGee
22     Binding all Canadians, together day by day
23     From Hockey Night in Canada
24     To world Olympic Games
25     C.B.C. has shown us how to play


 1     From Atlantic to Pacific, C.B.C. has been the most
 2     Important source of information
 3     Uniting all Canadians at work from coast to coast
 4     Who listen to this broadcast station.
 5     Miners, farmers, fishermen
 6     In little fishing villages,
 7     City folk and Prairie folk at home or far away
 8     Joined together by the air waves
 9     That help us all belong
10     C.B.C. united we will stay
11     C.B.C., united we will stay.
12  1268                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, ladies.
13  1269                 MS WALL:  I just want to end by
14     saying that I think one of the wonderful moments on CBC
15     was one morning when Peter Gzowski had fiddlers from
16     across the country, from the very far east to the very
17     far west, and they were all playing Maple Sugar.  It is
18     a moment that you may have heard.  It was wonderful.
19  1270                 Thank you.
20  1271                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
21     much.
22  1272                 MS PINSKY:  I will ask one last time: 
23     Is there anyone else in the room who would like to make
24     a presentation?
25     --- No response / Pas de réponse


 1  1273                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  We will adjourn for
 2     ten minutes.  As I said, I think we were expecting
 3     someone perhaps as late as 9 o'clock.  If anyone would
 4     like to stay, we invite you to stay.
 5  1274                 We will be back in ten minutes, in
 6     any event.
 7     --- Recess at 2050 / Suspension à 2050
 8     --- Upon resuming at 2100 / Reprise à 2100
 9  1275                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Once again,
10     everybody, thank you so much for being here.
11  1276                 Thank you to the translators,
12     technicians, court reporter/stenographer, Madam Pinsky,
13     the staff, CBC, and in particular to all the people who
14     have taken the time to come out and share their views
15     with us.
16  1277                 Thank you so very much.
17     --- Whereupon the consultation concluded at 2105 /
18         Le consultation se termine à 2105

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