ARCHIVED -  Transcript

This page has been archived on the Web

Information identified as archived is provided for reference, research or recordkeeping purposes. It is not subject to the Government of Canada Web Standards and has not been altered or updated since it was archived. Please contact us to request a format other than those available.

Providing Content in Canada's Official Languages

Please note that the Official Languages Act requires that government publications be available in both official languages.

In order to meet some of the requirements under this Act, the Commission's transcripts will therefore be bilingual as to their covers, the listing of CRTC members and staff attending the hearings, and the table of contents.

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded verbatim transcript and, as such, is transcribed in either of the official languages, depending on the language spoken by the participant at the hearing.



                       SUBJECT / SUJET:

                  SOCIÉTÉ RADIO-CANADA (SRC)

HELD AT:                                TENUE À:

Turner Room                             Salle Turner
The Coast Edmonton                      Hôtel Coast
Plaza Hotel                             Edmonton Plaza
10155 - 105 Street                      10155 - 105 Street
Edmonton, Alberta                       Edmonton (Alberta)

March 18, 1999                          Le 18 mars 1999

tel: 613-521-0703         StenoTran         fax: 613-521-7668


In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages
Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be
bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members
and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded
verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in
either of the official languages, depending on the language
spoken by the participant at the public hearing.


Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues
officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront
bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des
membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience
publique ainsi que la table des matières.

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu
textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée
et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues
officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le
participant à l'audience publique.


                 Canadian Radio-television and
                 Telecommunications Commission

              Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des
                télécommunications canadiennes

                  Transcript / Transcription

              Public Hearing / Audience publique

                  SOCIÉTÉ RADIO-CANADA (SRC)


Stuart Langford                         Chairperson / Président


Michael McWhinney                       Secretary / Sécretaire

HELD AT:                                TENUE À:

Turner Room                             Salle Turner
The Coast Edmonton                      Hôtel Coast
Plaza Hotel                             Edmonton Plaza
10155 - 105 Street                      10155 - 105 Street
Edmonton, Alberta                       Edmonton (Alberta)

March 18, 1999                          Le 18 mars 1999




Presentation by / Présentation par:

Mr. Garth Pritchard                                          6

Mr. Dale Phillips                                           18

Mr. Doug Lord                                               30

Mr. William McLean                                          33

Mr. Ed Wolfe                                                41

Mr. David and Mrs. Margaret Gilchrist                       47

Ms Sheryl Ashton                                            52

Mr. Michael Phair                                           56

Ms Linnie Chamberlin                                        67

Ms Lois Hole                                                76

Mr. Jay Smith                                               84

Ms Helen Folkmann                                           91

Mr. Lawrence Crosthwaite                                    97

Mr. Henry Kuchison                                         106

Ms Marjorie Bencz                                          115

Mr. Andrew Raeburn                                         118

Ms Diane Webster                                           122

Mr. Tim Willis                                             127

Mr. Josh Miller                                            130

Mr. Greg Falkenstein                                       134

Ms Susan Wilbert                                           145

Mr. Grahame Blundell                                       161




Presentation by / Présentation par:

Mr. Lance Mewller                                          167

Mr. David Ferrier                                          173

Mr. Brian Staples                                          182

Mr. Allen D. Ronaghan                                      188

Mr. Fred Yackman                                           193

Ms Penny Coates                                            205

Mr. Tommy Banks                                            207

Mr. R.W. Oldham                                            214

Mr. Paul Burke                                             219

Mr. Timothy Vaughan-Bettaker                               228

Mr. Don Metz                                               236

Reply by: / Réplique par:

Mr. Joe Novak                                              152

Mr. Joe Novak                                              244



 1                      Edmonton, Alberta / Edmonton (Alberta)
 2     --- Upon commencing on Thursday, March 18, 1999
 3         at 1300 / L'audience reprend le jeudi
 4         18 mars 1999, à 1300
 5     --- Technical difficulties / Problèmes techniques
 6  1                    THE CHAIRPERSON:  ... incorrectly
 7     introduced as a lawyer.  "Not guilty", he says.  He's a
 8     mere, simple employee and he's not a lawyer at all.
 9  2                    We do have a legal beagle though next
10     door and so if there is anybody who has any really
11     tough jurisdictional questions that we can't handle,
12     we'll call Caroline in from next door and she will set
13     us straight.
14  3                    Also next door is Cindy Grauer, my
15     colleague at the CRTC.  The response has been so
16     overwhelming to these hearings we have just had to
17     split it.  We split it into two rooms and we also have
18     conference calls coming in from the Northwest
19     Territories and the Yukon and what will be Nunavet in
20     just a few days.
21  4                    So people in Alberta have things to
22     say about the CBC and that's what brings us here.  As
23     all of you know, the CBC licences, radio, television,
24     Newsworld and Réseau de l'information, the RDI, the
25     French version of Newsworld, are up for renewal.  The


 1     hearings in that process will be public and will begin
 2     on May 25th in Hull, right across the river from Ottawa
 3     where the hearing rooms for the CRTC are located.
 4  5                    Anyone who wants to have a voice in
 5     that process, as well as this one is invited to write
 6     to the CRTC.  You can send in the script you are
 7     working with today or after you have heard what has
 8     gone on here today, you can rework it and send in
 9     another proposal, another piece.
10  6                    When you do that, you should make
11     sure that you refer to the CBC Renewal Application. 
12     And everyone who is registered here today will receive
13     a copy of the public notice which will be going out at
14     the end of this month, officially notifying you that
15     the CBC is up for renewal and explaining the process of
16     how to get more input in if that's what you wish to do.
17  7                    The point of these hearings, very
18     simply, is to save Canadians the expense of coming to
19     Hull.  Not everybody can get on an airplane.  There are
20     91 of you here today who are official intervenors.  Not
21     everyone of you wants to -- you know, all of you have
22     things to say about the CBC, but not every one of you
23     has deep enough pockets that you want to get on an
24     airplane and go to Hull to say it.  It's a heck of a
25     lot more fiscally responsible for two of us to get on


 1     an airplane and come to you.  And essentially, that's
 2     why we are here.
 3  8                    We want your comments.  We want to
 4     hear your opinion of the CBC.  In the announcement you
 5     got about these hearings you were given some sample
 6     questions.  You don't have to stick to those questions. 
 7     You don't have to stick to those issues.
 8  9                    I have got a script here in front of
 9     me, but I don't think I will follow it.  I will simply
10     say that at the table today, we will have people here
11     that love the CBC; I am sure we will have people who
12     don't love the CBC.
13  10                   I think that the best way we can run
14     these hearings is to hear everybody politely, to listen
15     to them.  We are going to allow everybody 10 minutes to
16     speak.  Because there are so many people I am going to
17     limit my questions, not because I don't care about what
18     you are saying, but just for time's sake so that we can
19     fit everyone in.  I will limit my questions to points
20     of clarification.
21  11                   I will now turn the microphone over
22     to Mr. McWhinney, who will just take you through the
23     nuts and bolts of how to present today and then we will
24     get on the way.
25  12                   Thank you very much.


 1  13                   MR. McWHINNEY:  Good morning.  I just
 2     wanted to let you know, procedurally, what we plan to
 3     do this morning.
 4  14                   I'm receiving a list of those people
 5     who were on the original list and who have actually
 6     arrived this morning.  And what I plan to do is to
 7     indicate the first, sort of, 10 or 15 of those people
 8     who will be invited to speak in that order and invite
 9     them to the table.  I will then go through and invite
10     each person individually when it's their turn to speak.
11  15                   And reiterate now that the allotted
12     time was 10 minutes and out of respect for all of those
13     who have come to share their points of view would
14     appreciate it if we could try to stick to that
15     10-minute guideline.
16  16                   Also, just a reminder to make sure
17     you turn on the speaker before you make your comments
18     and to make sure that you turn it off afterwards so
19     that we can make sure we get an accurate transcription.
20  17                   And also just a reminder in case
21     somehow we have French-speaking presenters here, the
22     way we have organized it is that those who have
23     French-speaking or need translation services to be
24     provided for their presentations are to be in the other
25     room with the other Commissioner.


 1  18                   So if, for some reason, someone has
 2     ended up in this room who requires translation
 3     services, they should make arrangements with Michelle
 4     outside to make their presentation in the other room.
 5  19                   And a final note is just for those
 6     who are present and don't wish to make an oral
 7     presentation, we would be happy to receive written
 8     comments and we have comment sheets here should you
 9     wish to fill those out.
10  20                   So I will just go through initially
11     those people who have arrived and who are on the list
12     and the order in which I will invite them to speak. 
13     And these people, whose names I will read, would be
14     invited to come and please sit at the table in
15     preparation for their opportunity.
16  21                   Mr. Garth Pritchard, Mr. Doug Lord,
17     Mr. Ed Wolfe, Mr. David and Mrs. Margaret Gilchrist,
18     Mr. Jay Smith, Ms Helen Folkmann, Mr. Andrew Raeburn,
19     Ms Diane Webster, Ms Brenda Mannasse, Ms Hazel Wilson. 
20     And my apologies if I have mispronounced any names.
21                                                        1311
22  22                   MR. McWHINNEY:  And Stuart, if you
23     are ready, I would invite Mr. Garth Pritchard to please
24     address the Commission.


 1  23                   MR. PRITCHARD:  Can you hear me?
 2  24                   How are you?  Welcome to Alberta.  We
 3     are glad you are here.
 4  25                   My background, basically, is all in
 5     journalism, the Montreal Gazette, the Toronto Star, the
 6     Calgary Herald.  Two and a half years in Ottawa and the
 7     last five years producing documentaries here in
 8     Alberta.
 9  26                   For the next 10 minutes when I talk
10     about CBC, I'm talking about CBC Television.  I believe
11     the CBC Radio do a wonderful job.
12  27                   And if I may, I would like to take
13     you back to my journalistic days in Montreal to try and
14     give you some idea of why some people in Western Canada
15     are upset with CBC.
16  28                   For years I covered the Separatists
17     in Montreal.  In fact, Walter Leger(ph) was blown up 30
18     feet in front of me while trying to dismantle a bomb in
19     Montreal.  I took the only pictures of Pierre Laporte's
20     body in the taxi cab on the south shore of Montreal off
21     Armstrong Boulevard.  I covered the riots, the
22     Chenier(ph) cells, the Rose cells and the kidnapping of
23     James Cross.
24  29                   Try to understand how we feel out
25     here when we watch our national television on a nightly


 1     basis and the Reform Party of Canada is portrayed as
 2     red-necked racists and bigots, while the leaders of the
 3     Separatist Party are portrayed in beautiful vignettes
 4     on my national TV.  These vignettes are produced in CBC
 5     Montreal.  In fact, I'm told from my counterparts in
 6     journalism right across the country that there has been
 7     a lot of complaining by Canadians about this.
 8  30                   Not once in my journalistic time am I
 9     aware of bombings or killings to produce the Reform
10     Party, which in fact, represents Western Canada west of
11     Ontario.
12  31                   How bad is the CBC?  In the most
13     important vote in my estimation and in most people's
14     estimation it was the Referendum in Quebec.  CBC
15     national news, one week prior to the Referendum finally
16     announces they think it's possible that Quebec is going
17     to leave.  Where the hell were they for 30 years?
18  32                   Another insight into the distrust of
19     our national broadcast recently happened in the Supreme
20     Court of Canada.  A judgment handed down on whether
21     Quebec could unilaterally leave confederation.
22  33                   The national anchor in Toronto was
23     talking to another one of the so-called experts in
24     Quebec.  The "what ifs" take place and we go through,
25     again, a 15-minute ordeal where experts in Quebec are


 1     allowed to fearmonger and threaten the country through
 2     the national news.
 3  34                   This, in fact, is forced on us twice
 4     a night.  We get to watch the national news twice, the
 5     same thing, every night for two hours.  Why?  Why is
 6     this happening?
 7  35                   It's happening so that a
 8     Vice-President in Toronto can make the statement that
 9     CBC is the most watched news program in Canada.  They
10     lie.
11  36                   In the six o'clock programming here
12     in -- not in Edmonton, excuse me, in Calgary, for
13     instance, and this is six 'clock, the six o'clock news
14     hour show, the figures are CBC 15,000, CTV 180,000,
15     Channel 7 120,000.  I believe if I get my story
16     straight from my confreres in Toronto that it's also
17     happening in Toronto.
18  37                   As a journalist, I would like to talk
19     to you about how many times CBC gets the story wrong. 
20     They never revisit and they never apologize when they
21     have got it wrong.  And I will just give you three.
22  38                   On the mega side, I give you the
23     Airbus affair.
24  39                   On the medium scale side, I give you
25     Backaviche(ph) Hospital in Bosnia where 40 Canadian


 1     soldiers' careers were completely destroyed by a story
 2     run basically weekly by the CBC.  It took two and a
 3     half years to get the truth out with no apologies from
 4     CBC.  The man who took the brunt of it was a Colonel
 5     Moore, who has been destroyed.
 6  40                   On the smaller scale here in Alberta,
 7     I give you the Suffield horses.  In one night, the
 8     national news and CBC killed 600 -- 600 horses I'm
 9     talking about.  In fact, there were only two horses
10     killed in the gather of 1,201 horses.  Never an
11     apology.  They never went back and revisited and they
12     never, ever told Canadians what really happened.  And
13     in fact, they have insisted all along that they are
14     always right.
15  41                   I would like to talk to you for a
16     second now, if I can, about documentaries.
17  42                   This is the one place where CBC's
18     commitment to the regions can be fulfilled and where
19     we, as Albertans, can talk to Quebecers and where
20     Quebecers can talk to Albertans.
21  43                   The documentary unit of CBC is, in
22     fact, allowed to use their privileged position to fund
23     their own ideas.  They not only use CBC's money, but
24     they are allowed to put together groups, often
25     off-shore money to fund documentaries.  Documentaries


 1     they want done.  This is an absolute conflict of
 2     interest.  I would have no problem if the entire
 3     funding came from CBC -- the CBC budget, that is.
 4  44                   But because they control what goes on
 5     television, they are able to use their position to put
 6     together large sums of money to do documentaries of
 7     their choice and their content.  And I might also add,
 8     because of the licensing system that the CRTC is
 9     involved in, they also can control things like the
10     National Film Board out here, because the National Film
11     Board has to get a licence from CBC to put it on
12     television.  So they can also control the National Film
13     Board's budget.
14  45                   I give you some disasters that have
15     resulted from this policy.  I give you "The Valour and
16     The Horror", $1 million in the making, tens of
17     thousands of Canadians voiced their outrage of the
18     misrepresentation of the facts.  This also includes, by
19     the way, letters from The Queen Mother.  There was a
20     Senate investigation.  Nobody was fired.
21  46                   "The Kid Who Couldn't Miss", "The
22     Billy Bishop Story", called a travesty by Mr.
23     Peeden(ph), the author of "A Thousand Must Fall".
24  47                   "The Dawn of The Eye", another
25     multi-million dollar "cock up", as the British call it. 


 1     They were part of the process.
 2  48                   These same people now have $25
 3     million to do the people's history of Canada.  And I
 4     must -- you must realize that CRTC gave a licence out
 5     in Canada for a History Channel.  All the money is gone
 6     from our national broadcaster's commitment to the CRTC
 7     for their regional commitments.  For the last three
 8     years CBC, and for that matter, Canadian Telefilm, now
 9     Canadian Television Fund, has shown up at the Banff
10     Television Festival broke.
11  49                   And what I'm talking about here is
12     that out of the then Telefilm Fund, now Canadian
13     Television Fund, you know that CBC gets $100 million. 
14     So every year, when we, as producers/directors, can get
15     to talk to the CBC people, the gene pool out of the
16     tower in Toronto, they always tell us they are broke.
17  50                   Let me try to explain here.  Two
18     years ago I had a licence to do a documentary on the
19     fiftieth anniversary of Search and Rescue in Canada. 
20     It was never done.  Why?  The $250 million that
21     Telefilm Canada had was -- Telefilm Canada had was
22     gone, $100 million of it was given to CBC.  They never
23     made any attempt to fulfil their regional obligations.
24  51                   And just so I can whine a little
25     here, Search and Rescue, 40,000 Canadians' lives have


 1     been saved by these people.  Nobody ever did their
 2     story.  Try that one on in the States and see how far
 3     you go.
 4  52                   Interestingly, 24 Western producers
 5     were told they would not get any help, even though they
 6     had licensing for their documentaries.  In other words,
 7     it seems only the Westerners paid the price in this
 8     case.
 9  53                   During this time period, I was
10     informed by both the CBC and the NFB that I would never
11     do a documentary again for them.  I was, in fact,
12     black-listed.  As written by Mr. Peter Worthington: 
13     "Film-maker cut by bureaucrats", Toronto Sun, Calgary
14     Herald.  Mr. Worthington says, and it's not my words,
15     it's his:
16                            "CBC and NFB bureaucrats have in
17                            fact black-listed Garth
18                            Pritchard."  (As read)
19  54                   So, why did that happen?  I conceived
20     and directed a documentary called "Lost Over Burma". 
21     This was a story of six Canadians who went down in 1945
22     during the war.  The plane was found in the late 1990s
23     and we were to go in and do a documentary.  We trained
24     with the 12 Canadian soldiers who were to leave, and
25     the night before we were to leave, the CBC had the


 1     complete mission cancelled.
 2  55                   In case anybody is saying that didn't
 3     happen, I will tell you some of the people who got it
 4     right.  Peter Worthington; Jim Duff, Montreal; Bob
 5     Blaky(ph), Calgary Herald; and Jonathan Manthorp(ph),
 6     Southam News.  They got it right.  CBC did use their
 7     power to, in fact, have the mission to collect the
 8     bodies of six Canadians cancelled.
 9  56                   Of course, as usual, the CBC deny it. 
10     No stories were shown on CBC of the outrage of the
11     Canadian ambassador in Thailand:
12                            "If we don't go now ..."
13  57                   And I'm quoting him:
14                            "... we will never get the
15                            downed Canadian airmen out." 
16                            (As read)
17  58                   The Prime Minister, because of the
18     written media -- thank God for our written media -- and
19     the average Canadians phoning and faxing in their
20     outrage, the Prime Minister himself turned the mission
21     back on.
22  59                   Because I did not leave when I was
23     told to by the National Film Board, I have been
24     black-listed.  Both of them have made it very clear to
25     me that I will never work for the NFB, I will never do


 1     a documentary for them, and sure as hell, I will never
 2     do a documentary to be shown on CBC.
 3  60                   Their arrogance didn't just stop
 4     there.  To make sure they really -- CBC make sure they
 5     don't quit because of the very small genetic pool in
 6     their ivory tower, six days before Remembrance Day, I
 7     was informed that the CBC was planning to broadcast
 8     "Lost Over Burma".  Imagine my surprise.  Because they
 9     had told the NFB and myself, and I'm quoting the
10     documentary on it:
11                            "This is a documentary on how
12                            not to make a documentary and
13                            nobody cares."  (As read)
14  61                   In fact, it received rave reviews and
15     has won two awards.
16  62                   Hopefully this will give you some
17     idea of how the CBC in the ivory tower control the
18     industry.  More and more Canadians are watching less
19     and less television produced by Canadians in Canada.  A
20     very small group of idea bankrupt people are running
21     the programming for CBC from their ivory tower.
22  63                   One of the things that Canadians
23     can't understand and what I'm hearing right across the
24     country is the case of Mr. Perrin Beatty.  Depending on
25     where you read, you find out the man was either pushed


 1     out, he's quitting, he's retiring, whatever is
 2     happening.
 3  64                   The thing that we don't understand as
 4     Canadians is this:  Is how is it possible that this man
 5     has been given a six-month extension to go before the
 6     CRTC to give his wish list of what the CBC is going to
 7     do in the next millennium?
 8  65                   I give you the planet Earth to pick
 9     from.  Who would you give the outgoing President, with
10     all the controversy surrounding the man's departure,
11     the right to tell them, the future people coming in,
12     the next President, the next management team, where the
13     hell CBC was going?  Canadians don't understand that
14     one.
15  66                   Anyway, none of this is conductive to
16     the viewer's trust.  We have got an $800 million
17     boondoggle, plus another $100 million given to them
18     under the table every year through Telefilm Canada. 
19     Zero regional representation and complete control from
20     Toronto and Montreal.
21  67                   I learned one thing as a young
22     journalist from Mr. Harry Larkin(ph), they did two
23     movies on his life, it's called "The Luck of Ginger
24     Coffee" and "Don't Rock The Boat".  He told me, "If you
25     get your facts straight, we'll never need a lawyer".


 1  68                   During recent award ceremonies, I
 2     listened to senior producers from CBC thanking their
 3     lawyers before they thanked their mother, their dog
 4     Blue, and their wife.  I believe this shows the depth
 5     to which Canadian television has degenerated --
 6  69                   MR. McWHINNEY:  Mr. Pritchard --
 7  70                   MR. PRITCHARD:  -- thanks to the CBC
 8     influence.
 9  71                   And I thank you very much.
10  72                   MR. McWHINNEY:  Thank you.
11  73                   THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
12     much, Mr. Pritchard.  I said I would only ask questions
13     to clear something up.  You have certainly opened the
14     door.  I'm sure that almost everybody in this room
15     would like to ask you questions, we just can't do it. 
16     But I have one question for you.
17  74                   You were talking about "Lost Over
18     Burma" and I was lost here in Edmonton on that.  Did
19     you make the documentary in the end?
20  75                   MR. PRITCHARD:  I conceived the
21     documentary and directed it, yes.  And I was the one,
22     along with the cameraperson, Darren Donahue(ph), who
23     trained with the Canadian military to go into the
24     jungles of Burma on the recovery mission.  The night
25     prior to us departing from Ottawa, CBC had the complete


 1     mission cancelled.
 2  76                   THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  So then how
 3     did you make it?  Sorry, how did you then get to make
 4     it?
 5  77                   MR. PRITCHARD:  What happened was I
 6     stayed and decided -- I was ordered back to Calgary by
 7     National Film Board and we were able, because of my 27
 8     years in journalism, we talked to every journalist I
 9     knew, and of course, the written media understood that
10     this just was not going to happen.  And the Prime
11     Minister turned the mission back on and we were able to
12     go with the Canadian military into the jungles, recover
13     the bodies of the Canadians and bury them in
14     Yangyon(ph).
15  78                   THE CHAIRPERSON:  And who funded it,
16     if I may ask?
17  79                   MR. PRITCHARD:  NFB.
18  80                   THE CHAIRPERSON:  So when it got
19     turned on, it got turned on on the original plan, then? 
20     I'm not trying to back you --
21  81                   MR. PRITCHARD:  Yes, yes.
22  82                   THE CHAIRPERSON:  -- into a corner, I
23     just want to make sure --
24  83                   MR. PRITCHARD:  No, no, no.
25  84                   THE CHAIRPERSON:  -- I understand --


 1  85                   MR. PRITCHARD:  Absolutely.  No,
 2     that's exactly right, yes.
 3  86                   THE CHAIRPERSON:  -- what happened.
 4  87                   MR. PRITCHARD:  It was cancelled for
 5     two days until Canadians across the board wrote, faxed
 6     and screamed to the highest order that this just
 7     couldn't happen.
 8  88                   THE CHAIRPERSON:  I got the
 9     complaints, I just wasn't sure what happened
10     afterwards, how you got in to do it.  So thank you very
11     much for that.
12                                                        1325
13  89                   MR. McWHINNEY:  Thank you, Mr.
14     Pritchard.
15  90                   I would now like to invite Mr. Dale
16     Phillips to please speak.
18  91                   MR. PHILLIPS:  Thank you CRTC for the
19     mission west, we appreciate it.  You will see us again,
20     no doubt in Hull, but we wanted to make the pitch here
21     and we will continue to work on this pitch over the
22     course of the next couple of months.
23  92                   For 25 years, the Alberta Motion
24     Picture Industries Association has represented
25     independent producers and members involved in all


 1     aspects of the film and television industry in Alberta.
 2  93                   Our mandate is ensure to the growth
 3     and development of the domestic industry here and
 4     central to this mandate is maintaining an environment
 5     in which Alberta producers can initiate, develop and
 6     produce films and programs over which they have some
 7     creative and financial control.
 8  94                   In light of this mandate, we would
 9     like to address our comments primarily to the following
10     question:  How well does the CBC serve the public on a
11     regional, as well as a national level?
12  95                   Our comments relate to independent
13     television production and they address the CBC's
14     mandate found in paragraph 1, section 3, item 2 of the
15     Broadcasting Act, which states that:
16                            "CBC programming should reflect
17                            Canada and its regions to a
18                            national and regional audiences
19                            while serving the special needs
20                            of these regions."  (As read)
21  96                   It is our opinion that for this
22     mandate to be realized, it is critical that the CBC be
23     strong in all regions of the country and that it
24     develop licence and invest in Canadian programming
25     produced or co-produced by independent producers based


 1     in the regions who own or co-own those programs.
 2  97                   The region where we see ourselves
 3     situated encompasses the three Prairie provinces and
 4     our primary focus is on Alberta independent production.
 5  98                   A year ago, in response to membership
 6     concerns about the trend toward larger -- sorry, toward
 7     longer broadcast licence terms issued by the CRTC and
 8     the absence, if you will, of CRTC annual review of
 9     broadcaster Promises of Performance regarding
10     independent production, AMPIA commissioned Project
11     Management and Research, Diane Janzen to undertake a
12     study, which we call "Broadcaster Report Carding".
13  99                   I have left two documents with your
14     registration desk out front, together with a copy of
15     this pitch document.  One document covers the Promises
16     of Performance for all broadcasters in Alberta,
17     Promises of Performance put before the CRTC and have
18     become part of the record.
19  100                  The second is our work on report
20     carding against those Promises of Performance.  And the
21     documents that I have placed before you today are the
22     Promises of Performance for all Alberta broadcasters,
23     plus how we think the CBC is doing in that context.
24  101                  The document is now utilized by AMPIA
25     as a benchmark for the purpose of comparison to the


 1     actual expenditures incurred by broadcasters.  So we
 2     have tried to quantify what the commitments were at the
 3     licensing level and then go back to performance and
 4     just see how they match up.  This is going to be an
 5     ongoing part of our program and our mandate.
 6  102                  In the spirit of collegial
 7     disclosure, AMPIA sent a draft copy of part two of this
 8     study, which is called "Report to Number Two, the
 9     Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, CRTC Promises of
10     Performance and Broadcaster Report Card" to Mr. Joe
11     Novak, CBC Regional Director, for his input.  AMPIA
12     felt that it was important that the CBC have the
13     opportunity to provide its feedback so the final
14     version would be as accurate as possible.
15  103                  We took in Mr. Novak's comments on
16     March 1st which were reviewed by Project Management and
17     Research and the information was integrated, as best we
18     could, into the final version of part two of the study.
19  104                  To briefly review the findings of
20     both part one and part two, we would like to draw your
21     attention to the following points.
22  105                  In the not too distant past, support
23     by the CBC for Alberta independent production has been
24     relatively strong.  However, since 1995/96, it has
25     declined by 57 per cent.  Because Canada Television


 1     Fund, EIP and LFP dollars are triggered by broadcast
 2     licences, this decline has contributed to an overall
 3     situation where in fiscal 97/98, Alberta producers
 4     obtained about $4 million of the $95.5 million of
 5     production funding available through the CPF
 6     English-language envelope.  Based on our population, we
 7     should have obtained about $11.8 million.
 8  106                  The licences for CBC in both Calgary
 9     and Edmonton lack any quantifiable commitment to the
10     Alberta independent production industry.  With no
11     identification, the budgets or the establishment of
12     funds to assist in the development of the industry and
13     no commitments to purchase programming from the
14     independent production sector in Alberta, not only is
15     that inequitable with regard to private Alberta
16     broadcasters, all of whom have made such commitments
17     and some of whom are also affiliated with a network,
18     CTV for example.  But the result is that there is also
19     little impetus for the CBC network to direct
20     expenditures to independent producers in this part of
21     the world.
22  107                  In our opinion, this negatively
23     impacts the CBC mandate of reflecting the region to
24     ourselves and to other parts of Canada.
25  108                  A recent program schedule review


 1     reveals the overall lack of commitment to Alberta
 2     regional programming, a lack of commitment to
 3     independently produced regional programming and an
 4     overall lack of support for production outside of local
 5     crew use.
 6  109                  Looking at a typical 1999 weekly CBC
 7     Edmonton schedule, which consists of 132.5 hours, you
 8     will find the following:  106 hours of CBC network
 9     programming or 80 per cent of the schedule; 8 hours of
10     regular regional programming, all in the news category
11     and representing 6 per cent of the schedule; 18.5 hours
12     of foreign programming or 14.5 per cent of the
13     schedule.
14  110                  No hours of regular regional
15     programming in the unrepresented categories of drama,
16     music variety, documentary and children's programming. 
17     No hours of regular programming either produced or
18     co-produced by the Alberta independent production
19     sector.
20  111                  In fact, if you are a CBC Alberta
21     viewer, you don't have the opportunity to watch any
22     regularly scheduled Alberta produced drama, children's,
23     documentary, music variety programming, but you can
24     watch six hours a week or 312 hours a year of
25     "Coronation Street" and "The Simpsons".


 1  112                  It should be mentioned that we share
 2     these concerns about CBC original programming with
 3     others such as the Mandate Review Committee,
 4     commissioned by the Federal Minister of Canadian
 5     Heritage in '96 and chaired by Pierre Juneau.
 6  113                  While the CBC has been highly
 7     successful in the Canadianization of its schedule, for
 8     Albertans these increases have not yet seen more
 9     Alberta programming, more Alberta stories told or more
10     access by the Alberta public to regional programming in
11     anything but news.
12  114                  And finally, certain national licence
13     requirements, such as quotas for the purchase of
14     television programming from the independent production
15     sector, 40 to 50 per cent, are not carried through at
16     the local level.
17  115                  The CBC and its Broadcast Act driven
18     mandate has been affected by budgetary cuts, however it
19     has been the CBC's own internal policy that has guided
20     where they channel their remaining resources, and the
21     result of this policy has been less shelf space, less
22     investment and less CBC triggered independent
23     production in this province.
24  116                  On numerous occasions independent
25     producers based in Alberta, Manitoba and Saskatchewan


 1     have been told by CBC executives that the network would
 2     warm to our projects if the financing structures did
 3     not require the CBC to access its Telefilm or CTF
 4     envelopes.  By inference, this suggests that a policy
 5     decision has been made that those envelopes have been
 6     reserved by the CBC for their in-house productions or
 7     for non-regional independent producers.  This is
 8     inequitable to say the least, as it means that a huge
 9     chunk of the CTF, EIP and LFP financing are unavailable
10     to us.
11  117                  AMPIA supports the CBC as a strong
12     national public broadcaster, but one that is rooted in
13     the regions.  We believe that in order for the CBC to
14     meet its mandate both nationally and in Alberta it must
15     commit itself philosophically and financially to strong
16     regional production operations and more specifically to
17     a revitalized relationship with the Alberta independent
18     production community.
19  118                  The recent appointment of a new CBC
20     Alberta Regional Director has created an expectation
21     that the CBC will show with words and deeds that they
22     are serious about commissioning more programming from
23     Alberta independent producers and will reserve the
24     shelf space both regionally and nationally to air these
25     shows.


 1  119                  There is another issue that we deem
 2     important and it relates to ownership.  In order to
 3     foster and maintain the growth of the Alberta
 4     independent production sector, Alberta producers need
 5     to own and control the rights to their programs.  This
 6     is difficult if we are required to partner with larger
 7     non-regional production companies in order to give the
 8     CBC network the comfort it requires to grant a licence.
 9  120                  Independent producers in Alberta now
10     have a proven track record in producing high end
11     dramatic series and documentaries and it is simply
12     unfair that we be asked to share ownership because of
13     an outdated and fallacious perception of capability.
14  121                  Looking ahead we would like the CRTC
15     to consider the following recommendations:
16  122                  That the CRTC, through its licence
17     approval process, support the CBC's continued
18     Canadianization of its schedule;
19  123                  That the CRTC, through its approval
20     process of both the national licence and the Alberta
21     station licences, make a commitment to the importance
22     of regional programming by requiring that CBC Alberta
23     operations designate five hours over and above its
24     current licence requirements for local news programming
25     of scheduled time per week, with a set percentage of


 1     prime time and a set percentage in other time slots, to
 2     be filled with programming in the unrepresented
 3     categories of drama, children's, documentaries and
 4     music variety that is originated and produced or
 5     co-produced by Alberta independent producers;
 6  124                  That the CRTC require the CBC on a
 7     national and/or regional licence level to commit to the
 8     development and airing of Alberta independent
 9     productions by establishing a production fund of at
10     least $2 million annually to support script and concept
11     development licences and airing of Alberta independent
12     productions.  It is also recommended that this fund be
13     administered and decisions made at the local Alberta
14     level.
15  125                  On that point, in terms of precedent
16     it should noted that A Channel, who have also two
17     Alberta licences in Edmonton and Calgary, have
18     committed $2 million per year from the A Channel drama
19     fund, CFRN in Edmonton has a commitment of $1 million
20     per year through the CFRN TV Fund, CFCN in Calgary has
21     a commitment of $1.5 million per year through the CFCN
22     Production Fund.  In the latter two examples, both CFRN
23     and CFCN are CTV network owned stations, yet their
24     independent production expenditure commitments are over
25     and above the network commitments.


 1  126                  And finally, we recommend the CRTC
 2     require that the CBC network purchase at least 50 per
 3     cent of its programming from Canadian independent
 4     producers, up from the current licence requirement of
 5     zero per cent.
 6  127                  All this adds up to what we believe
 7     that the Alberta public and Alberta producers merit and
 8     are entitled to, a proportionate and fair share of CBC
 9     funding, which as a concept, certainly does not seem
10     unreasonable.
11  128                  Thank you for the opportunity to
12     present here today.
13  129                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, sir. 
14     You have covered an incredible amount of product in a
15     short time.  I guess that's why you are a producer.
16  130                  I have a question.  Sorry, again, I
17     didn't get one point and I want to make sure I have it. 
18     It will all be in the transcript and I thank you for
19     making your notes.
20  131                  But you did an average week, sort of
21     a week in the life of the CBC, with 132.5 hours, 80 per
22     cent of it to this, 14 per cent to foreign, et cetera. 
23     None, as I understood it, for regionally produced,
24     independently produced programming and yet, I thought I
25     heard you say earlier that they had spent $4 million. 


 1     So I just wonder where the money went.  Did I get it
 2     wrong?
 3  132                  MS JANZEN:  Just a clarification on
 4     that.  The review of the schedule is a current
 5     schedule.  So, for example, if you looked four years
 6     back, "North of 60", for example, a series, was running
 7     on CBC.  But at the current time there is no regular
 8     programming outside of the news in Alberta on CBC
 9     Edmonton.
10  133                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  So the $4 million
11     was spent in 95/96 --
12  134                  MS JANZEN:  That's right.
13  135                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  -- but the
14     132.5-hour reference is to '99, is that it?
15  136                  MS JANZEN:  That's right.  That was a
16     schedule I believe of January the 31st to February the
17     5th.  So it was sort of a picture in time of the CBC
18     current schedule.
19  137                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  And
20     could we have your name for the transcript, please?
21  138                  MS JANZEN:  Diane Janzen.
22  139                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Diane. 
23     Your 15 seconds of fame.
24     --- Laughter / Rires
25  140                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Secretary?


 1                                                        1336
 2  141                  MR. McWHINNEY:  Can I now invite Mr.
 3     Doug Lord to make his presentation, please.
 4  142                  UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:  Who did you
 5     call?
 6  143                  MR. McWHINNEY:  Mr. Doug Lord.
 8  144                  MR. LORD:  Thank you for allowing me
 9     to come and speak to you today.
10  145                  I have come to speak today to help
11     ensure that there will be a strong CBC, particularly
12     CBC Radio, into the 21st century and beyond.  We cannot
13     afford to lose the CBC.
14  146                  I know that well financed lobby
15     groups wish it to be otherwise.  I know that the
16     advertising industry would love to target CBC listeners
17     and that private broadcasters are campaigning to reduce
18     resources to the CBC.  I know support for the CBC
19     appears to be lukewarm in our capital and that some
20     political parties are pushing for privatization of the
21     CBC.
22  147                  We pay less than half per capita than
23     many other industrialized countries in the world.  A
24     strict market economy creates a society of winners and
25     losers.  And we, the listeners, will be the losers.


 1  148                  Instead, build program quality and
 2     the listeners will come and with them, the money.  We
 3     need strong leadership free from political
 4     interference, whether it is on the Board of Governors
 5     or from whatever source.  Keep the arms' length
 6     relationship between government and the CBC strong. 
 7     Keep the CBC diverse, rather than concentrated as
 8     newspapers have become.
 9  149                  Choke off attempts by the government
10     to destroy the arms' length relationship between
11     government and the CBC so government cannot gain more
12     control over the CBC.  Choke off attempts by private
13     broadcasters to undermine the CBC.  Choke off attempts
14     to have advertising on CBC Radio.
15  150                  Advertising, for me, already has
16     destroyed CBC Television and there is no PBS as an
17     alternative for CBC Radio.  I pay taxes, too, and wish
18     some of the money to go to support the CBC.  I am also
19     prepared to make additional donations to help keep CBC
20     Radio healthy, as I do for PBS with no tax receipts.
21  151                  Kill the CBC and you kill Canada.  Is
22     that what some powerful interests in government and
23     outside government want?  Are they anxious to become
24     the 50-some State of the USA?
25  152                  Why do I feel this way?  It is


 1     because I am a proud Canadian.  I do not wish to be
 2     swamped by American culture.  Their way is not our way,
 3     even though, as individuals they are wonderful people.
 4  153                  I love listening to CBC Radio
 5     programs which I can hear nowhere else.  CBC "Morning
 6     Show", "As It Happens", "Arthur Black", "Perks and
 7     Quirks", "Cross Country Checkup", "Ideas" and many
 8     more.
 9  154                  To paraphrase PBS, "If CBC Radio
10     doesn't do it, who will?"
11  155                  In conclusion, I urge the Commission
12     not only to renew CBC licences, but also suggest that
13     CBC should be strengthened, not weakened any further. 
14     It is a unifying force.
15  156                  Thank you.
16     --- Applause / Applaudissements
17  157                  MR. LORD:  Thank you.  I didn't
18     expect that after listening to some of the other people
19     here, I thought I had a very weak presentation.
20  158                  Thank you.
21  159                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  It was a winner, it
22     was clear.  I have no questions and we don't allow
23     anyone in with tomatoes, so you are safe here.  Say
24     what you like.
25  160                  Thank you, Mr. Lord.


 1  161                  Mr. Secretary?
 2                                                        1341
 3  162                  MR. McWHINNEY:  I now invite Mr.
 4     William McLean to make his presentation, please.
 6  163                  MR. McLEAN:  Thank you for the
 7     opportunity to speak here.
 8  164                  As an old sailor, there's not too
 9     many of us around yet, but I have been with the CBC
10     closely and I appreciate it very much.  And I see
11     different examples where we don't have an organization
12     with social conscience as the CBC has.
13  165                  If I could change it and have my
14     dream a little bit, my dream would be instead of CBC,
15     Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, it would be
16     "Canadian Beautiful Conscience".  The CBC is the
17     conscience of Canada and I don't like to even attach
18     the word "corporation" to it when I see what the
19     different -- the track record of some of the
20     corporations.
21  166                  For example, my beloved Cuba,
22     Dupont(ph) down there, excuse me, them and their rich
23     friends tried to turn Cuba into the whorehouse of
24     America, that's the name --
25  167                  Now their nose is out of joint


 1     because Castro has had some social conscience and has
 2     straightened some things out and then they have the
 3     nerve to call him a communist.  They are not
 4     communists, they are socialists.  They had to deal with
 5     Russia, that's the only one that would have anything to
 6     do with them, because at that time, the Reagan cold war
 7     was on the "evil empire", building dew lines up in
 8     Canada here that still haven't been cleaned up.  They
 9     are dumping in the water and polluting the area up
10     there, our beautiful northland.
11  168                  That's the kind of stuff that really
12     bothers me.
13  169                  I say that meetings are very
14     important.  Meetings like this where there is meetings
15     of minds have brought out some wonderful things.
16  170                  Back in the days of Tommy Douglas,
17     that my dad supported completely, it was from meetings
18     and people with a social conscience that were able to
19     go ahead and create a beautiful Medicare that a lot of
20     people are trying to spoil and get in on the
21     corporations again with their greed for money.  It's so
22     refreshing to see an organization that the bottom line
23     isn't dollars, that sense is a lot more value to them.
24  171                  When I see the different examples of
25     how people get carried along, I hear people talking, I


 1     did hear a lot of negative things about the CBC, and
 2     anyone, a recent tuner into the CBC Radio would find
 3     that, yes, it's very discouraging.  I hate repeats. 
 4     Christmas concerts, if you are going to repeat the same
 5     stuff, it's no good.
 6  172                  Why do they repeat?  Because they are
 7     being cut back all the time.  They have been cut back
 8     so severely and perhaps there is a personal amenity
 9     between Jean Chretien and the CBC.  For example, just
10     talking about conscience, I think in all of us there is
11     a small boy that wants to come out, that's our voice of
12     conscience.  And it's wrestling with the monster in us.
13  173                  And as the people get power, because
14     power corrupts -- I can see the power corrupting Mr.
15     Chretien when it came time to visit -- to go to the
16     funeral of Mr. Hussein, a wonderful statesman that had
17     the kind of leadership that we are so needful of, he
18     was too busy skiing.  He could have made that.
19  174                  Also, when APEC was having a meeting,
20     what does he do?  Uses pepper spray.  Those people were
21     trying to solve some big problems.
22  175                  And meetings are very important in
23     our Canada here.  Some people that cared developed a
24     wheat pool.  At that time, before the wheat pools got
25     going, big business corporations had a line elevator


 1     system, we had to call -- as opposition called it, the
 2     "lion elevator system", because they were stealing
 3     grain on the scale right and left.  This is history.
 4  176                  And if we don't read history and
 5     observe, it keeps repeating itself.  The wheat pool,
 6     with their grassroots cooperation of farmers then
 7     developed a Wheat Board.  And the Wheat Board was
 8     orderly marketing, so people could market their stuff
 9     so it wouldn't be a boom and bust.
10  177                  This recent pork fiasco that was so
11     hard on the people.  With a bit of planning that
12     wouldn't happen.  But some big operators got in there
13     and produced, say, 100,000 hogs and upset the whole
14     family farm system.
15  178                  I have a farm background and if
16     farming talk bothers you people, I would like to
17     suggest to you that when you spend $1 for food, in this
18     country about 20 cents goes to the farmer and in
19     Europe, or Britain, 50 cents goes.  So they are doing
20     one hell of a job of providing us with good food at a
21     very reasonable price.  It's the grassroots of our
22     country.
23  179                  And when I hear people like Peter
24     Gzowski, a good man, good Canadian, the conscience of
25     Canada, when he gets to the stage where we get a CBC


 1     President in there that -- excuse me, ladies -- Beatty,
 2     you know what he called him, and I got to believe Mr.
 3     Gzowski, because there's a lot of greedy people for
 4     that bloody dollar and I think conscience is worth a
 5     lot more than that dollar and we have it with the CBC.
 6  180                  They air some tremendous programs
 7     that are -- could be argumentative and they are not
 8     afraid to do it and I appreciate that.
 9  181                  A tremendous program they had was
10     about MADD, that's Mothers Against Drunk Drivers.  And
11     the lady made a very good presentation.  But before
12     her, a lady made a presentation and made everything
13     sound so wonderful.  Who we checked out, she's a liar
14     and she's speaking for -- you know, they protect their
15     own lineage.
16  182                  So then the lady that was in charge
17     of Mothers Against Drunk Driving -- and we should do
18     something about it.  Have meetings to do more about it,
19     because the guy, if he's a big shot, he can get away
20     with it and deprive a family of a father.
21  183                  Now, we have a lot of good movements
22     like that were developed from meetings like this, which
23     I wish was bigger than what it is.  Different people
24     come at different times, I understand that.
25  184                  So, as we try to make this Canada


 1     better, we have to have a neutral voice that just isn't
 2     after money or trying to cater to somebody.  And the
 3     CBC can fill that role quite nicely if they aren't cut
 4     back on all their fundings.
 5  185                  Apparently when Mr. Chretien was
 6     questioned about not attending King Hussein's funeral,
 7     he said, "Well, I made a deal with him", he says, "I
 8     think I handled it pretty well".  He said, "I didn't go
 9     to his funeral, he didn't have to come to mine".
10  186                  You know, maybe that's -- I think
11     that's quite cruel.  I think that's quite cruel and I
12     don't want to get personal, but when we have good
13     leaders like that with good ideas that aren't
14     supported, it's pretty bad.
15  187                  Left in the hands of private industry
16     and corporations with no control that have a conscience
17     for Canada, I am concerned about it.
18  188                  I also hear quite a bit about
19     American programming.  I also see on the news all the
20     terrible trouble that our kids are getting into.  I
21     look at the American shows that they have.  "True
22     Lies", what an oxymoron.  That's one of their famous
23     shows.  "True Crime".
24  189                  And turn on the American shows and
25     look at all the violence going on.  No wonder young


 1     kids are driving like they are immortal.  They think
 2     they are worth it.  You know, they are told in school
 3     that they are worth it and Trudeau, while on that
 4     freedom of rights -- we just got one "R" there and we
 5     don't have the three "R's" in school any more, but I
 6     wish we had that second "R", responsibility.  Rights
 7     and responsibility.  I wish that would go together. 
 8     And with a strong voice like the CBC, we could
 9     emphasize responsibility and help the situation a lot
10     by an organization that cares about Canada, rather than
11     just the mighty dollar.
12  190                  I probably used up most of my time, I
13     have to say something about the CRTC.
14  191                  I hope they can do a good job.  But I
15     hope they can learn something from when a senior
16     citizen phones in to get some information, I think they
17     should be cognizant of the time zones and not call them
18     a little after 7:00 in the morning one day and a little
19     after 8:00 the next day.  I don't think -- you know,
20     there are time zones and people should be cognizant of
21     that.  And have enough grace -- we have enough friction
22     between eastern and western Canada without that.
23  192                  So I am hoping there will be a lot
24     more meetings about things that concern us Canadians
25     and keep our spokesmen for the CBC going really well.


 1  193                  My parting thought would be this: 
 2     Hopefully we can get this business with Quebec smoothed
 3     out.  But one of the problems I mentioned to you, maybe
 4     you didn't hear about it, but I heard about this on the
 5     CBC and on different fearless publications, 80 per cent
 6     of the people in Quebec smoke.  And they think they are
 7     being patriotic, because the head offices of the big
 8     Reynolds and all the outfits are in Quebec, so they
 9     think they are supporting a home industry.
10  194                  We know the spurious systems are
11     getting our young people to smoke and the number of
12     young ladies smoking is deplorable.  They have
13     subliminal messages for those kids and they are going
14     after it.  And we need meetings about that, we need to
15     do things about that.  We need to talk about that.
16  195                  But it's easier to talk about glory,
17     you know, big holidays, big deals.  But deals for
18     people, social, is what I think we should do and I
19     think that the CBC will help us achieve that.
20  196                  Thank you.
21  197                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
22     much, Mr. McLean.
23  198                  I'm sorry about the early morning
24     call.  We are a little bit the victims of our own
25     popularity here.  I know excuses are cold comfort, but


 1     we had just such a mass of people that we had to keep
 2     trying to change it and we went from one room over a
 3     day and a half to two rooms.  So I apologize if the
 4     call was at an insensitive time.  We will try to
 5     improve on our performance.
 6  199                  But thank you very much for your
 7     intervention here today.
 8  200                  MR. McLEAN:  Thank you.
 9                                                        1352
10  201                  MR. McWHINNEY:  Can I now call on Mr.
11     Ed Wolfe to present, please.
13  202                  MR. WOLFE:  Thank you.  I appreciate
14     the opportunity to appear on behalf of the Alberta
15     Ratepayers Association.
16  203                  Like myself, most of our membership
17     is small businesspeople and we are very concerned about
18     the financial elites and the U.S. multi-national
19     corporations trying to end the CBC and its public
20     interest role.
21  204                  The experience of having lived and
22     worked in the U.S. gives me to realize Canada has one
23     overwhelming enemy, U.S. power economically, culturally
24     and militarily aims for control and domination of
25     Canada, which it has largely achieved already.  This


 1     program is aided and abetted by the ruling political
 2     class in league with U.S. business centres and
 3     multi-national corporations who forced F-Trade on
 4     citizens who voted against it.
 5  205                  I'm speaking to my brief and to a
 6     paper we have called "The War Against the CBC", which I
 7     will submit.
 8  206                  Some ask:  CBC, large or good?  The
 9     answer is both and it should be very well funded.  I
10     have heard some of the arguments on the radio about the
11     support people give to CBC and we certainly tend to
12     endorse that.  I suppose there is over-exposure of
13     sports and things like the Olympics, but in general our
14     membership is enthusiastic about the CBC.
15  207                  We won't defeat the U.S. grab of
16     Canada by our $12 billion expenditures of arms.  CBC is
17     threatened by the revolt of the elites and betrayal of
18     democracy as documented in the new book by Christopher
19     Lash(ph).  We enclose a study by business writer Alex
20     Rankin, which traces the historic and continued
21     harassment and fund shorting of CBC by political
22     figures.
23  208                  The Red Book promises have proven
24     false.  Private stations enjoy subsidies, no payment
25     for the public bandwidth, dial space or any significant


 1     rent or any transfer fees for the billions paid in
 2     transferring stations back and forth.
 3  209                  Hostile political appointees as CBC
 4     officers, directors denote conflict of interest.  The
 5     ethereal radio waves belong to the people, not
 6     corporations who paid nothing and would end CBC use of
 7     our common ether.
 8  210                  Canada's corporation taxes are the
 9     lowest in the industrial world.  Corporate tax freedom
10     day is early in January.  Citizen tax freedom day is
11     around July 15th.  Canada's tax expenditures are the
12     world's highest, $34 billion a year.  That is tax
13     forgiveness to corporation largely.  U.S. tax
14     expenditures are $125 billion.  So Canada spends on tax
15     forgiveness much higher than the U.S. does.
16  211                  Alberta is proportionately worse. 
17     Canada's loans and subsidies to business have a
18     repayment rate of only 2 per cent.
19  212                  Canada spends $13 billion a year on
20     arms.  I read they were spending $184 on a combat bra,
21     I think it was probably a lot less than that.  But they
22     do spend $16 billion a year on RSPs, 65 per cent of
23     Canadians are unable to access the tax relief of RRSPs.
24  213                  Atomic Energy has enjoyed $15.8
25     billion in subsidies.  Their 1997 subsidy was $197


 1     million.  They have $2.5 billion planned for Turkey,
 2     which includes bribes which have been documented to
 3     place a faulty nuclear reactor in a dictatorship.
 4  214                  Hibernia Oil Platform, $1 billion in
 5     subsidies, some went to U.S. embassies and $1.6 billion
 6     in loan guarantees.
 7  215                  There is lots of money around in the
 8     Canadian system to give good support to the CBC.  Paul
 9     Demarais subsidized obscene power corporations $1
10     billion with PMO connections.  He has complaints about
11     the CBC.
12  216                  Conrad Black controls 65 per cent of
13     the print media and I feel that it makes the CBC that
14     much more important to counter the monopoly of the
15     print media.
16  217                  The President of BCNI, the Business
17     Council on National Interests, Tom Tokino(ph) boasts of
18     controlling Canada's politicians, policies, agenda and
19     of manipulating F-Trade onto Canada against the votes
20     of Canadians.  His wealthy backers, mostly U.S.
21     controlled, have assets of $1.9 trillion, annual income
22     of $500 billion and controlling majority interests of
23     most so-called Canadian business.
24  218                  The enclosed Allan Fotheringham
25     article on Peter Newman's book, "Titan", wherein Tokino


 1     blabbed and boasted about the interview on owning
 2     Canada's politicians.
 3  219                  CBC should not give any CRTC
 4     oversight of its licence or programming while Jerry
 5     Springer continues to foul the public airwaves.  I
 6     can't understand how that can go on, its such a sewer
 7     program.
 8  220                  Suddenly the critics were being taken
 9     more seriously.  It was no longer a big stretch of
10     imagination that CBC executives were facing pressure
11     from an angry government.  The nearly $1 billion a year
12     subsidy for the CBC works out to less than a dime a day
13     for each Canadian.
14  221                  Remarks were made that this is Reform
15     country.  And I think one party got 2 million votes and
16     only two seats.  There's an awful lot of people in
17     Alberta who have no regard for the rather bigoted
18     practices of the Reform Party, which is much supported
19     by the Southam papers now.  And I find those papers to
20     be partizan and narrow and we benefit from CBC exposure
21     of the issues.
22  222                  I know some of the Reform members and
23     I find them very bigoted.  And I do compliment the CBC
24     on giving the native aboriginal program on TV.  I find
25     many good programs about natives are on CBC Radio that


 1     balance some of the discrimination they endure and for
 2     over 30 years.
 3  223                  I have appeared for a number of
 4     regulators, mostly captive, like the NEB and AUB.  We
 5     have never achieved any public interest results in
 6     appearing before regulators.
 7  224                  And I do feel that it's important to
 8     continue to fund the CBC and look at some of these
 9     other agencies like, what is it, Channel A, the Fox TV
10     station.  They are bringing in TV sewage.  And I'm not
11     a particularly religious person, I don't approach that
12     from a religious perspective, I just think it's
13     despicable to allow that material to go on the air and
14     there must be better things that the regulator could do
15     with that time.
16  225                  I will bring my enclosures about the
17     war against the CBC and my documentation of these
18     expenditures that government make, which I feel are so
19     generous to business that there is lots of room for
20     funding for the CBC for the public interest.
21  226                  Thank you.
22     --- Applause / Applaudissements
23  227                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
24     much, Mr. Wolfe.
25  228                  And I must say, I want to thank all


 1     of you so far, you are really keeping to time and I
 2     know it is a struggle.  Every one of you has things to
 3     say, you have prepared these briefs and I know that we
 4     are forcing you to cherry-pick a little and not give
 5     the brief as fully as you want, but I really appreciate
 6     the effort you are making.  You are sticking to time
 7     and everybody is going to at least get 10 minutes today
 8     and that's wonderful. So thank you very much.
 9  229                  Michael?
10                                                        1400
11  230                  MR. McWHINNEY:  Thank you.  Can I now
12     invite Mr. David and Mrs. Margaret Gilchrist to speak.
14  231                  MR. GILCHRIST:  Before we begin, I
15     just might say I find it amusing that the whiter the
16     hair, the more we are behind CBC.
17  232                  In travelling around Canada, and
18     indeed in other parts of the world, we have realized
19     the tremendous importance of the CBC, and the high
20     regard in which it is held.
21  233                  Margaret was raised in England,
22     travelled through most of Europe and studied in France,
23     was 13 years in Zambia, and lived both in eastern and
24     western Canada.
25  234                  MS GILCHRIST:  So I was brought up


 1     with public radio from being the smallest child up to
 2     what I am now.
 3  235                  So what does the CBC mean to me? 
 4     During the 30 years I have lived in Canada, I have
 5     learned more, I think, from CBC programming on both TV
 6     and radio than from any other source.
 7  236                  The morning shows on radio, in
 8     whatever part of the country you are, bring together
 9     people from all over, either in person or through the
10     phone or by mail, electronic or otherwise, and they
11     have taught me about different areas of the country,
12     long before I travelled across its breadth.
13  237                  It is a forum where one has the
14     freedom to express ones opinion and to discuss issues
15     as on "Cross Country Checkup", although it is sometimes
16     difficult to get a hearing on that.  I tried this past
17     Sunday, but was right at the end of the list and didn't
18     get on.
19  238                  I lived in Quebec when we first
20     arrived and since then have lived in Saskatchewan and
21     Alberta and visited all the other provinces.  And
22     everywhere we go we can find the CBC.  It's interesting
23     hearing the different morning shows across the country
24     and we learn from that.
25  239                  David grew up in Angola, England and


 1     Canada and has worked from east to west and in the
 2     north of this country.
 3  240                  MR. GILCHRIST:  I have lived in seven
 4     provinces.  I have visited all the others.  I lived in
 5     four other countries and visited more than a dozen
 6     other countries.
 7  241                  As a senior I still travel as much as
 8     possible, but always listen to CBC.  It isn't just
 9     wanting to keep up with the programs that I am used to
10     hearing or seeing, it's more than that.  It's a sense
11     of being part of a country no matter where I am in it
12     and even outside of it sometimes.  Of being connected
13     to the folk I have had to leave behind and knowing that
14     they are listening to the same station that I am
15     listening to, so that we have a point of contact.
16  242                  So we believe that we are well
17     qualified to assess the value of the CBC as a unifying
18     link, anyway.
19  243                  MS GILCHRIST:  We don't watch a great
20     deal of television at the moment.  We are square
21     dancers, so we are often out in the evenings.  But the
22     dancing may not last for too many more years and when
23     we can no longer go out dancing, we want to know that
24     the CBC is going to be there.
25  244                  If we are not at home, I still tape


 1     shows like "Marketplace", the "Health Show", "The
 2     Nature of Things", "Witness", "Fifth Estate", "The
 3     Passionate Eye", "Man Alive", and I can't get by
 4     without "Air Farce" and "This Hour has 22 Minutes",
 5     that really keeps me going.
 6  245                  And "On the Road Again" which really
 7     tells you about people in Canada.  Now, that started
 8     out, I believe, as an Albertan show and then was taken
 9     over.  After about a year or 18 months it became
10     national and stopped being just Albertan.
11  246                  What are we looking for on TV?  More
12     shows by and about Canadians, a return to the regional
13     programming cut after the drastic underfunding from
14     this government.  You may not want to discuss politics
15     in this hearing, but let us say that the way this
16     government has ignored its promise of stable funding
17     for the CBC has completely disgusted us.
18  247                  We have been Liberal supporters most
19     of our lives, I started in university in England, but
20     no longer.  It seems to me that Chretien is making a
21     deliberate attack on the CBC and wants it closed down.
22  248                  Countries like Australia and the U.K.
23     know the value of a national broadcasting system and
24     have made efforts to preserve them.  In the U.K. we
25     were buying television licences while I was still at


 1     school.  We could do that in this country.
 2  249                  MR. GILCHRIST:  However, we do have a
 3     concern about the direction in which the CBC seems to
 4     be going.  The quality of the program and the morale of
 5     the personnel seem to me to be deteriorating.
 6  250                  We believe that this is, at least,
 7     mainly due to the cutbacks of the last few years. 
 8     Cutbacks which the present government promised us in
 9     pre-election rhetoric would never occur.
10  251                  One cannot buy a new Rolls Royce for
11     the price of a Volkswagen.  Nor can you continue to
12     produce quality programming with fewer staff and less
13     money.  We believe that insult is added to injury when
14     managers are offered as much as 20 per cent increase,
15     while technicians receive little or no raise.  And that
16     is the situation that is seriously impairing the
17     ability of the CBC to fulfil its mandate.  It lowers
18     morale.
19  252                  Unless this situation is addressed,
20     our arguments in favour of maintaining the CBC may
21     dissipate.
22  253                  MS GILCHRIST:  Our Prime Minister
23     seems to dislike the CBC altogether.  We have been
24     wondering sometimes if the Board of the CBC has been
25     instructed to starve the corporation to death by asking


 1     it to do more and more with less and less.
 2  254                  In asking that you renew the licence
 3     for the CBC, we also urge you to encourage our
 4     government to give back enough money to restore the
 5     vitality for which CBC has so long been rightly
 6     respected and hire back sufficient staff that the
 7     energy of those who are still there are not sapped to
 8     exhaustion.
 9  255                  MR. GILCHRIST:  The CBC does not
10     belong to a few elected people --
11     --- Technical difficulties / Problèmes techniques
12  256                  MR. GILCHRIST:  -- with some strong
13     recommendations to the powers that be that CBC be more
14     adequately supported so it can continue its important
15     place in our country and in the world.
16  257                  Thank you.
17     --- Applause / Applaudissements
18  258                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
19     much.
20  259                  Michael?
21                                                        1408
22  260                  MR. McWHINNEY:  Thank you.  Can I now
23     invite Ms Sheryl Ashton to present, please.
25  261                  MS ASHTON:  Good afternoon.


 1  262                  I'm here representing the National
 2     Screen Institute Canada, which is one of the four
 3     federally recognized training institutions for Canadian
 4     writers, producers and directors.  We are the only
 5     training institution located in Western Canada and we
 6     happen to be the oldest training institution.
 7  263                  The work that we do across the
 8     country and the fact that we are situated in a regional
 9     province, gives us a really unique perspective on the
10     state of the film and television industry in this
11     country.
12  264                  The reality is that for the film and
13     television writers, producers and directors who we
14     train across the country, if they are centrally located
15     they have a lot more access to the decision-makers, and
16     if they come from one of the regional provinces that
17     access is not available.
18  265                  This is an industry that it is
19     important to know what you know, but it's also more
20     important to know who you know.  Consequently we have
21     trained these writers, producers and directors across
22     Canada and we have discovered that the people that live
23     in the provinces not centrally located are held hostage
24     by their address.  The final result is that Canadians
25     lose a very unique opportunity to view the images and


 1     hear the stories from all regions of this country.
 2  266                  With this fact in mind, the NSI
 3     Canada strongly urges the CRTC to continue to support
 4     the CBC by granting them a broadcast licence, but also
 5     we encourage you to encourage CBC to decentralize its
 6     decision-making process and have Regional Directors,
 7     such as Jane Chalmers(ph) and Joe Novak -- give them
 8     the opportunity to make the informed instructive
 9     decisions about what their specific viewing audience
10     wants to see and what the independent production
11     communities in their regions are able to produce.
12  267                  Further, these dedicated
13     professionals should be given the opportunity to assist
14     in the development and broadcast licence
15     decision-making process on a national level.
16  268                  Having said all this, I can speak
17     with great appreciation of the support NSI Canada has
18     received from the CBC over the last 13 years.  And the
19     support comes in the form of sponsorship of our drama
20     prize, which is a national competition which chooses
21     six teens from across the country and puts them through
22     an 18-month training process that results in a
23     10-minute film being premiered at a festival that we
24     hold now in Edmonton and Winnipeg.
25  269                  CBC training and development has


 1     assisted us with workshops, including the National
 2     Writers' Round Table, Best of Input and The Making it
 3     Happen seminars, and CBC personnel have assisted
 4     greatly in sitting on juries for NSI Canada and
 5     choosing teams of filmmakers from across the country.
 6  270                  These levels of participation and
 7     support play an invaluable role in assisting us to
 8     fulfil our mandate.
 9  271                  One final point I would like to make
10     is the CBC, since its inception, has played an
11     invaluable role in building a strong and vibrant
12     national television industry.  Over the last decade, we
13     in the film and television industry have witnessed a
14     tremendous growth in the strength and talent of our
15     regional producers, writers and directors.
16  272                  Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba,
17     in particular, have increased their independent
18     activity by a substantial percentage.  If the CBC is to
19     continue to have a truly national presence, then I
20     strongly urge the CRTC to encourage all of the
21     centrally located CBC management to travel to these
22     provinces on a more regular basis in order to meet with
23     the independent production communities and witness the
24     reality of what is happening.
25  273                  In addition, these centrally located


 1     managers should be encouraged to acknowledge not only
 2     the expertise of the CBC's Regional Directors and their
 3     staff, but also their front-line knowledge of the
 4     stories and images being created in these regions.
 5  274                  Thanks.
 6  275                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 7     much.
 8  276                  Michael?
 9                                                        1410
10  277                  MR. McWHINNEY:  Could I now invite
11     Mr. Michael Phair to present, please.
13  278                  MR. PHAIR:  Thank you very much.  I'm
14     Michael Phair, I am a member of City Council here in
15     Edmonton, although I am not officially representing the
16     City this afternoon and I certainly do appreciate the
17     time that both myself and Mr. Edwards, who will
18     introduce himself in a moment, have this afternoon.
19  279                  I also appreciate the task you have. 
20     As a member of Council we listened to 60 people talk
21     about roadways yesterday from 9:30 in the morning until
22     9:30 in the evening.  So I well appreciate what you are
23     up to and the task in front of you.
24  280                  MR. EDWARDS:  Thank you, Councillor
25     Phair.


 1  281                  And thanks for the opportunity to
 2     appear here.  My name is Jim Edwards.  I am President
 3     and Chief Executive Officer of an organization called
 4     Economic Development Edmonton, a wholly-owned
 5     corporation owned by the City of Edmonton, whose
 6     mandate is business development, tourism, convention
 7     business and film production.
 8  282                  I want to address, following
 9     Councillor Phair, some of the economic implications of
10     the CBC for this region.
11  283                  MR. PHAIR:  Thank you.
12  284                  We will give just a brief overview of
13     some of the local context, talk about a couple of major
14     kinds of directions that we think are important, and
15     Mr. Edwards, in particular will discuss that.  And then
16     if there is a minute or two left, a couple of personal
18  285                  I think that it's important to
19     realize that from my perspective, Alberta, in fact, has
20     two major city regions.  Similar populations when you
21     look at the metropolitan area of Edmonton with the City
22     of Calgary.  However, the demographics and the cultural
23     realities, in fact, are quite different and quite
24     unique between the two cities.  And of course, Edmonton
25     is the capital.


 1  286                  And I mention this because my
 2     understanding is there are about 175 or so employees in
 3     both cities -- in each of the two cities and that the
 4     CBC, as such, spends about $10 million in the region. 
 5     And being the capital, we would expect that in fact a
 6     larger number of employees might be located here
 7     because of the provincial aspect that CBC is also
 8     involved in.
 9  287                  I think, though, that it is important
10     to keep in mind that the population that we reach, part
11     of which you also -- that CBC also identifies in its
12     staffing, I think is part of what we will get back to a
13     little bit later.
14  288                  I think, though, that we wish to
15     indicate to the CRTC two major directions that we would
16     see for the future of CBC.
17  289                  MR. EDWARDS:  Thank you, Councillor
18     Phair.
19  290                  I should add also that I had the
20     privilege of chairing the committee which drafted the
21     present Broadcasting Act and studied the mandate in
22     1987 and '88 of the corporation as part of that study,
23     as the Chairman of the Standing Committee of
24     Communications and Culture in the House of Commons,
25     later as Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of


 1     Communications who took the Act through Parliament.
 2  291                  At that time I was deeply involved in
 3     broadcasting matters and put a proposal to the then
 4     President of CBC and its Chairman Designate, Patrick
 5     Watson, about how to restructure the corporation for
 6     the benefit of the regions.
 7  292                  As Councillor Phair has said, we
 8     calculate and these figures have not been verifiable,
 9     but it is based on data available to us that
10     approximately one to 2 per cent of CBC resources are
11     invested in Alberta, a province which has 10 per cent
12     of the national population and 13 per cent of the
13     national output.
14  293                  We understand some of the
15     contributory factors, but nonetheless, we think that
16     that is a situation that needs to be improved.
17  294                  When we lead economic development
18     missions to other parts of the country, particularly
19     Toronto and Ottawa, we include a cultural component in
20     those delegations, because we consider culture to be a
21     driver and not a passenger of our economy.
22  295                  I think you will find that there is a
23     very broad consensus of support for more and better CBC
24     Radio service throughout the land, both Radio One and
25     Radio Two and that there is kind of a split view on the


 1     value and the efficiency of the CBC English television.
 2  296                  The proposal I presented to Messrs.
 3     Juneau and Watson in the late eighties had to do with
 4     catching up with latter day technology and delivering
 5     satellite to cable and satellite to dish the CBC
 6     English-language television service, much as Newsworld
 7     is delivered today, thereby saving something in the
 8     order of $200 million per year, which could be ploughed
 9     back into programming.
10  297                  In addition, with the lowering cost
11     of transponders, there would be the ability to deliver
12     one region's programming to another.  And a million
13     Canadians, of course, move every year and we have
14     people from all parts of Canada living in Alberta and
15     the same is true elsewhere in the country.
16  298                  For something in the neighbourhood of
17     $20 million per year, as opposed to the present $250
18     million we could each have regional service wherever we
19     go in the country seeing how other Canadians see
20     themselves and we would not have the unfortunate
21     experience of looking down the wrong end of the
22     telescope and seeing a miniature view of the rest of
23     the country.
24  299                  Those are my own views.  I do speak,
25     though, to the issue of CBC investment in this


 1     province, which I think from the time of the
 2     construction of that wonderful CBC broadcast centre in
 3     Toronto, has sapped the regions.  That was a good move
 4     and it would have been a wonderful move in a time of
 5     ascendent finances.
 6  300                  Unfortunately when the finances
 7     cratered, partly because of my government but more
 8     because of the current government, unfortunately the
 9     regions paid the price and we are losing the plasma of
10     the Canadian bloodstream which is our identity as
11     portrayed by CBC.
12  301                  Mr. Phair?
13  302                  MR. PHAIR:  And I think that in
14     indicating that the emphasis to the CRTC for more
15     regional programming on CBC, as we have.  On a
16     day-to-day basis, what that begins to mean, in fact, is
17     that there will be more in-depth analyses, more
18     documentaries, more biographies, more cultural and arts
19     programs, more comedy done by local artists, local
20     performers, local technicians, local support staff,
21     local suppliers and all of those are a very strong and
22     effective impact on our economy.
23  303                  Edmonton likes to see itself and
24     portray itself as a smart city, and that is one of the
25     ways of working into how we see ourselves and how we


 1     portray ourselves and that we would like the CRTC to
 2     push the CBC for more regional programming.
 3  304                  I think it also -- with a push for
 4     regional programming is an opportunity for the CBC to
 5     establish more, better and in-depth partnerships with
 6     other kinds of organizations and groups in the local
 7     region.  And I think that that, in fact, will pay off
 8     for better quality, as well as more quantity of
 9     programming.
10  305                  The second point I think that we
11     would like to indicate is that we really value and want
12     to emphasize the need for CRTC to push the CBC as a
13     good corporate citizen.  And of course, that's related
14     to the resources coming to the region.  It's hard to be
15     a good corporate citizen if you don't have much to
16     give.
17  306                  And if I can use as a comparison,
18     when you look at CBC in Edmonton, you will note that
19     the resources for French TV and Radio are quite
20     extensive, as they should be, we are the heart of that
21     in here.  And in my work with the French-speaking
22     community in Edmonton, CBC as a corporate citizen is
23     seen in a very positive, very strong and very
24     supportive light.  And I think it is accurate to say
25     that the French-speaking community is extremely pleased


 1     with and values CBC as a corporate citizen.
 2  307                  I do not think that is the same with
 3     the English CBC because the resources are far too
 4     minimal to be able to play the kind of role that I
 5     think is really important as a corporate citizen.  And
 6     I would strongly encourage the CRTC to push through the
 7     regional programming, additional resources that go
 8     there, the role that CBC can play as a corporate
 9     citizen.
10  308                  As some final comments, I would like
11     to just add a couple of personal comments.
12  309                  I am pleased, personally, to see more
13     Canadian programming on television, particularly less
14     American.  I think that is a direction that I
15     personally strongly support and think that has gone
16     well.
17  310                  I think that perhaps on television
18     with the Newsworld station, it may be that the other
19     regular television will have less news and more other
20     kinds of programming in the long term.
21  311                  I think Radio One and Two and radio
22     in general in this country is under-rated in terms of
23     how often people listen to radio and how much it is
24     actually used.  I don't think we really understand that
25     particularly well.  And I really do see that there is a


 1     great deal of value in both Radio One and Radio Two.
 2  312                  It's easy to get caught that TV is
 3     the medium these days, and I think that when I think of
 4     the time that one spends in automobiles and in other
 5     places where radio is on, even the background or part
 6     of it -- and the number of radios people have in their
 7     homes, I suspect that there is a lot more listening to
 8     radio than most of us realize.
 9  313                  I do think that CBC provides
10     programming that is diverse, that is, in general, of
11     excellent quality and that positively shapes the
12     Canadian identity.  And that includes programs around
13     jazz, whether it is P.J. Perry(ph) or Tommy Banks from
14     here in Edmonton, or Holly Cole and Oscar Petersen,
15     "Brave New Waves" that I listen to late at night and
16     otherwise probably wouldn't understand a great deal of
17     the music of the younger generation.  Some of the
18     in-depth programming that is done, I will never forget,
19     personally, the program on the origins of rap music and
20     how that fits into the musical world, something that I
21     would never have thought in terms of, in fact, probably
22     like many people of my generation thought that, you
23     know, "What nonsense is this that young people are
24     listening to".
25  314                  "Harbour Front Readings" that are


 1     held on CBC, the "Cross Country Checkup", I think there
 2     is a great deal to be said for -- that the kinds of
 3     programming and the quality of programmings that are in
 4     fact offered through radio, as well as TV.
 5  315                  And I do, again, as indicated,
 6     appreciate the opportunity.  I think it is a good time
 7     for CRTC to look at the mandate of CBC and what it is
 8     doing.  We are entering a new millennium, it seems to
 9     me as I look backwards that CBC, in fact, has kind of
10     reinvented itself every decade and now it seems to be
11     the time again.
12  316                  I think it is really appropriate
13     emphasizing again the issue of corporate citizenry and
14     regional programming as the directions for the future.
15  317                  MR. EDWARDS:  Commissioners, is there
16     one minute remaining or is our time exhausted?
17  318                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Go right ahead.
18  319                  MR. EDWARDS:  Yes.  I just want to
19     make one further point as someone who has spent some
20     time in public life and is now clearly retired from it. 
21     And also I should declare my interest, I happen to be a
22     supporter of the present Provincial Government.
23  320                  But that having been said, I think
24     that the lack of resources, particularly to CBC Radio
25     has sapped the yeasty debate that contributes to a well


 1     functioning democracy, both at the federal, but more
 2     particularly within this region, at the provincial
 3     level.  And probably the same can be said of other
 4     provinces, as well.
 5  321                  For a democracy to function well,
 6     there needs to be public debate and it happens to some
 7     degree on commercial radio, but it happens in a rather
 8     unbalanced way and I think that better CBC resources,
 9     particularly to radio in Alberta would make a
10     fundamental contribution to a more functional
11     democracy.
12  322                  Thank you.
13  323                  MR. PHAIR:  Thank you very much.
14     --- Applause / Applaudissements
15  324                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Edwards, you
16     referred to your work on the Broadcast Committee and if
17     you don't mind, I will try to pick your brain a little. 
18     We have got you to come out and we like to squeeze as
19     much as we can out of our participants, but --
20  325                  MR. EDWARDS:  -- you can squeeze from
21     fog, because it was a while ago.
22  326                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, fog is also a
23     part of Canada's reality.
24     --- Laughter / Rires
25  327                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  We are hearing,


 1     though they are not necessarily particularly part of
 2     the upcoming renewal, the CBC has indicated that it is
 3     looking towards a third radio network for young people
 4     and it is looking towards doing some fairly substantial
 5     investing into Internet broadcasting.
 6  328                  Do you have any views on that?  If
 7     you don't I don't want to pin you to the wall, you
 8     know, we didn't ask you -- I didn't give you any
 9     warning of this question.  But if you do have any, we
10     would be pleased to have them.
11  329                  MR. EDWARDS:  I think public sector
12     radio for young people is a very desirable thing.  Very
13     few countries have it.
14  330                  But I think we have to be realistic,
15     as well.  I would not want to see the already strapped
16     resources that are allocated to Radio One and Radio Two
17     diminished in order to provide that service.  I think
18     it would have to be complementary resources and some
19     considerable restoration of resources to the existing
20     services ought to take place at the same time.
21  331                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
22     much.
23                                                        1426
24  332                  MR. McWHINNEY:  Thank you.  Can I now
25     invite Ms Linnie Chamberlin, please, to speak.


 2  333                  MS CHAMBERLIN:  Thank you and good
 3     afternoon.  This is a bunch of tough acts to follow.
 4  334                  My comments are behalf of my family
 5     and friends and myself.  And my sister phoned me from
 6     Williams Lake and said, "Please get to the hearings, I
 7     can't".  I would have come anyways, because our whole
 8     family has loved and respected the CBC for all our
 9     years.  It is a treasured friend to us, but also, quite
10     frankly, the only media source we trust to tell us the
11     truth.
12  335                  That virtue is, in itself -- that
13     virtue in itself should keep CBC funding at an optimum
14     level forever.  And I think that the Prime Minister's
15     criticism proves my point.
16  336                  Besides our delight in the innovative
17     programming, the great music and the cross-Canada
18     discussions about everything in the world it seems, we
19     feel that CBC is the single unifying experience in
20     Canada that no one else offers.
21  337                  It gives a country-wide picture of
22     our country and all our people so that when a young man
23     in Newfoundland or a senior in Whitehorse or a nurse in
24     Edmonton want to make their thoughts known, only the
25     CBC provides that forum.


 1  338                  David Suzuki and Jeurgen Goethe(ph)
 2     and all the funny, brilliant Canadian talent portrayed
 3     on CBC keeps us entertained, informed, thoughtful and
 4     terribly proud of this vast Canadian talent.
 5  339                  As a homecare nurse, I listen to the
 6     CBC as I am travelling from house to house and often
 7     when I go inside that house to see a client, they are
 8     listening to CBC, as well.
 9  340                  The money from the taxpayers has been
10     increasingly diverted from CBC and the repeat programs
11     on radio and television reflect the disregard our
12     government feels for CBC.  But all Canadians have a
13     vested interest in CBC and want to have the choice of a
14     public excellent broadcaster.
15  341                  I was born listening to CBC and my
16     family and friends and I want to be able to enjoy the
17     CBC throughout our lives.
18  342                  Thank you.
19     --- Applause / Applaudissements
20  343                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Ms
21     Chamberlin, and I must tell you, you have nothing to
22     learn from the other presenters.  You are clear and you
23     are calm and I certainly don't have you down as
24     undecided.  I know exactly where you stand.
25  344                  I would ask you a question though. 


 1     Since you have been kind enough to be short, I will be
 2     mean enough to pin you down a little.
 3  345                  We heard from Mr. Pritchard, and I am
 4     sorry he has just left, the first speaker, that in some
 5     areas, I don't think overall, he says he likes radio --
 6     I wish he were still here, I am trying to go from my
 7     notes that he found radio good, but he was worried by
 8     some of the documentaries on CBC.  Remember he talked
 9     about "The Valour and The Horror" and Billy Bishop.
10  346                  Do you share any of that?  I mean,
11     are you an absolute fan of the CBC or do you find some
12     things to be critical of, as well?
13  347                  MS CHAMBERLIN:  Well, I couldn't live
14     without "This Hour has 22 Minutes" and "Air Farce"
15     because I think we have to have political comment and
16     have to poke fun at ourselves, we are known as a
17     serious group of people.  I travel quite a bit to
18     Europe and they say, "Oh, you Canadians are so
19     different from the Americans", which I think is good.
20  348                  Documentaries and other CBC programs,
21     I have found none that offended me.  Certainly there is
22     a switch to turn off if it does.  I think -- we have
23     the right to and must try to expand our horizons and
24     understand other races, other thinking and I find some
25     of it incomprehensible sometimes, but I delight in the


 1     variety.
 2  349                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 3     much.
 4  350                  Michael?
 5     --- Applause / Applaudissements
 6  351                  MR. McWHINNEY:  I now invite Mr. Adil
 7     Pirbhai, please, to speak.
 8                                                        1430
 9  352                  MR. PIRBHAI:  Mr. Chairman, I
10     apologize that I left my speech at work, but I do know
11     what I want to say.
12  353                  Before I begin to express my views on
13     the CBC, let me say this:  That if you see any of the
14     private broadcasters, private television stations, in
15     Alberta or like elsewhere, they keep on saying to us we
16     are multi-cultural, they keep on saying that we listen
17     to our audience, yet I haven't seen any multi-cultures
18     in the private radio stations.
19  354                  Examples, CFRN, they talk about
20     multi-culturalism, that we are number one in Edmonton,
21     yet they have no member of a visible minority as an
22     anchorman or as an anchorwoman.  When you ask them why
23     is it that you don't have a member of a visible
24     minority on their television station and their answer
25     is "We don't have a member of visible minority applying


 1     for a job".
 2  355                  The other comment I wish to make and
 3     I would like to urge the CRTC that Shaw Cable has
 4     applied to buy out the WIC Radio network.  And if I was
 5     a member of CRTC, I would oppose, oppose, oppose.  That
 6     is not in the best interest of Canada or Alberta to
 7     have one business buying out every radio station in
 8     Alberta.  There is no competition and they can do
 9     whatever they want and I am totally opposed to a large
10     corporation like the Shaw Cable buying out WIC Radio
11     network.
12  356                  And the arguments that you will hear
13     that "If you don't let us buy the WIC Radio network or
14     the ITV, that the media will collapse", it's a false
15     argument.  It's a very false argument.  The people have
16     a right to know why is it that there is only one
17     corporation buying out everything else.
18  357                  Mr. Chairman, I will give you -- many
19     of you in this room may disagree with me, but it is
20     your democratic right.
21  358                  Over the past couple of months
22     when -- I may disagree, I may agree -- there have been
23     incidents of Turkish people protesting in Ottawa
24     because one of their leaders was arrested in Nairobi
25     and if you saw the stations like 630 Radio, the media


 1     making a racist remark -- a racist remark on the air,
 2     on the air, on the air.  Like saying, "If you are an
 3     immigrant in this country, if you protest --" sure
 4     there were some members of that particular community
 5     broke the law, but to provoke the people on the media,
 6     what does 630 Radio did, it was intolerable excuse.
 7  359                  The editorial said that there is a
 8     flight going back to Turkey and the people of Edmonton
 9     phoning the station after those comments by 630 Radio,
10     people started phoning in.
11  360                  Over the last one month, the CBC, its
12     unions, are on strike.  And the federal government
13     employees are on strike.  And we saw the same kind of a
14     protest in Ottawa and the police were called and there
15     was some major incidents happen, but never heard in the
16     media.  I phoned 630 CHEK Radio, I asked them why is it
17     any different?  Where are we going to send those people
18     who are on strike?  And he tells me, you know, go to
19     hell.
20  361                  Mr. Chairman, if you look around in
21     this country, every institution that we owned as ours
22     has been sold.  Petro Canada.  If you look at the
23     larger organizations that was part of ours, you know,
24     like we can call "ours" and that the government of
25     Brian Mulroney sold out every thing that we owned.


 1  362                  I understand that the CBC is facing
 2     cutbacks, but the only thing that is remaining in this
 3     country that is still ours is CBC.  And if you listen
 4     on the CBC Radio One at two o'clock, Canadians from
 5     coast to coast phoning in with their stories, phoning
 6     in about everything that they want to know from coast
 7     to coast.  And that is what Canada is about.
 8  363                  And if you see in the private
 9     industry, it is there for profit and it should never be
10     there.  And if you look at the Alberta CBC, at one
11     o'clock, like, they have a talk show in Edmonton, it's
12     one of the fantastic shows that you ever heard.  They
13     have all kinds of guests and they allow all kinds of
14     people to, like, hear their views.
15  364                  I speak French, but not much.  At six
16     o'clock to eight o'clock --
17     --- Technical difficulties / Problèmes techniques
18  365                  MR. PIRBHAI:  -- and I believe that
19     the CBC should and must be allowed to have Radio Three. 
20     If you denied them, like, you will hear the arguments
21     from private organizations that the CBC is being
22     supported by the government, surely these -- like
23     supported by government.
24  366                  But there is the very element, the
25     very fabric that is the only thing that is left in this


 1     country, it is the publicly owned CBC.  And if you
 2     don't give them a licence and if you give a licence to
 3     the private, I think it will be disastrous.
 4  367                  That's what I have to say.
 5     --- Applause / Applaudissements
 6  368                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 7     much, sir, and -- perhaps you could turn that mike off,
 8     thank you.
 9  369                  Thank you very much.  I can't imagine
10     what was in that script that you could have added, but
11     if there is something when you get back to the office,
12     if you read it through and say, "Oh, gosh, I wish I had
13     said that", just put it in an envelope and mail it to
14     us and we will be happy to add it to the record of
15     these proceedings.
16  370                  Again, thank you very, very much,
17     sir.
18  371                  MR. McWHINNEY:  Perhaps, Commissioner
19     Langford, we should also reiterate or point out that
20     with respect to your comments that didn't pertain
21     directly to the CBC, that you might want to submit
22     those to the CRTC in writing, just so that you
23     understand that this is a hearing or a consultation
24     that pertains to the CBC specifically and in order that
25     those comments be heard directly, that you address them


 1     separately and submit them to the Commission.
 2  372                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  That's correct.  We
 3     do have a complaints department and if you have
 4     complaints about what you are hearing on the radio, get
 5     them to us and we will look into them.
 6  373                  Thank you.
 7  374                  MR. PIRBHAI:  Thank you.
 8                                                        1440
 9  375                  MR. McWHINNEY:  Can I now invite Mrs.
10     Lois Hole, please, to present.
12  376                  MS HOLE:  Thank you and thank you for
13     this opportunity to come and speak.
14  377                  As you probably know, I have written
15     a letter to the Journal and I did mean to bring it, but
16     I hope you have read it.  And if you haven't, it was in
17     yesterday's Journal and I would hope that you will put
18     that on record for my support of the CBC.
19  378                  Oh, thank you.  I have got it in
20     front of me, thank you very much.
21  379                  To describe myself, I would like to
22     tell you that I have been a School Trustee for over 30
23     years.  I was on the governing council or governing
24     board of Athabaska University for 11 years.  I am a
25     farm woman.  A person who gets out into the community a


 1     lot.  I am very involved in talking and giving
 2     presentations on gardening and sometimes promoting CBC
 3     occasionally with the odd little statement here and
 4     there, because I quote often from programs I have heard
 5     on the CBC.
 6  380                  I think the CBC is probably one of
 7     the most unifying institutions in our country.  When I
 8     can sit in my home or do my dishes or do my cooking or
 9     sit in my car and drive and hear from a farmer in
10     Saskatchewan, a fisherman in Newfoundland, a forester
11     in British Columbia, an intellectual, I guess, from
12     Toronto --
13     --- Laughter / Rires
14  381                  MS HOLE:  I didn't say that -- but I
15     had to throw that in.
16  382                  But when I can do that and begin to
17     understand and appreciate and feel connected by
18     listening to these programs, I can't tell you how
19     valuable I feel it is.  We are a country that is big,
20     it's a sparse population if you think about it.
21  383                  It used to be, when I was a little
22     girl, I used to go and -- when I lived in Saskatchewan,
23     we would go to see the train come in every day, because
24     that was -- we lived in a small town of 400 people and
25     that was a big thing.  We didn't have a lot to do so we


 1     would go and we would go to the train station and we
 2     would wave to all the people that were travelling
 3     across the country.  And it was almost like a
 4     connection.  And we would talk to the porters.  And it
 5     was wonderful.  All of a sudden that's gone.
 6  384                  And somehow I -- it sounds corny, I
 7     think, but the CBC has kept the connection.  It has
 8     kept us all aware of each other, it helps us understand
 9     each other and it helps us sympathize with each other
10     when we have problems and when things aren't going
11     quite right.
12  385                  The CBC also does promote tolerance. 
13     That's what you do when you can listen to people from
14     across the country.  I think the CBC has been very good
15     at presenting both sides.  When I listen to people talk
16     about education, invariably you will hear both sides. 
17     And I think that's quite wonderful.
18  386                  I would hate to miss "This Hour has
19     22 Minutes", I think it is one of the funniest, one of
20     the most enjoyable programs.  I rush home to get to --
21     so I can make sure I watch it.  I love "The Royal
22     Canadian Air Farce".  I don't rush home for national
23     hockey, but my husband does.  So that's fine, I mean,
24     that's his prerogative.  But I love to watch when Don
25     Cherry is on and then I get mad.  And that's good, too.


 1  387                  I think on the National news, when
 2     you watch the National news and you get programs that
 3     sometimes are on science, it's on health, education,
 4     they are fun, it's on agriculture, it could be on
 5     anything.  And there is always something for everybody.
 6  388                  That, I think, is probably one of the
 7     most important things.  And when it isn't something
 8     that is purely geared to what I am particularly
 9     interested in, then I find I'm watching it and I'm
10     learning something.  I don't always have time to read
11     the paper every day.  Some papers I don't need to read,
12     but that's another --
13  389                  But I do like to read the papers and
14     there's The Globe and Mail and there's The National
15     Post, The Edmonton Journal, The Sun, we even have a
16     little newspaper in our hometown of St. Albert, we only
17     get it twice a week, but you know, I can't always read
18     everything.  But if I'm listening to the radio I am
19     keeping up.  If I listen to CBC Radio I know what's
20     going on in the world.
21  390                  I think it's important to know what's
22     going on in all these countries of the world so that
23     we, again, will have an understanding of what is
24     happening.  If I don't have time to read then I still
25     can keep up with things.


 1  391                  There is another program that has
 2     just started in Edmonton, "The Dead Dog Cafe".  It's a
 3     marvellous program.  It helps us understand our
 4     native -- our First Nation people.  I just think that
 5     what a wonderful thing the CBC is doing by having a
 6     program like that on radio.
 7  392                  I would like to also suggest that I
 8     wished that we would -- certainly we have got to spend
 9     far more money on our radio and TV.  There must not be
10     any further cuts; there must be an influx of money go
11     into CBC Radio and CBC TV.
12  393                  I would like to see the CBC TV
13     without any commercials.  I think they are a
14     competition to the private sector that the private
15     sector resents.  And we shouldn't encourage that
16     resentment, there is a place for all of them.
17  394                  But let the CBC be the Canadian
18     channel that can promote Canadian programming, that can
19     give people who are working within our Canadian theatre
20     and drama and so forth, give our people a chance to
21     show what they can do.  We have got some wonderful,
22     wonderful clever people around who, I think, we are
23     losing because there isn't the opportunity here, which
24     the CBC could offer.
25  395                  It seems to me that for -- and I know


 1     some people might not agree, but I am very willing to
 2     pay more money for helping the CBC.  If we paid $27 a
 3     year per person, if that's what I have heard the amount
 4     is, that seems like a very small amount of money to
 5     keep our CBC around.
 6  396                  And I would also like to say that --
 7     I heard you ask the question about "The Valour and The
 8     Horror".  It was a hard program to watch, but it was
 9     necessary.  I felt that what the CBC did with that
10     program was show how terrible war is and that's what we
11     need to promote.
12  397                  And I also thought that in that
13     particular program they -- shortly after, well not
14     shortly after, but only about a couple of months ago, I
15     watched a program where it showed our people, our
16     Canadian soldiers, going over to Germany and talking to
17     soldiers in Germany who had actually fought one another
18     and now they are trying to bring closure to something
19     that was so horrible for them.
20  398                  "The Valour and The Horror" showed
21     that.  How terrible, and we should all -- I think
22     everybody should recognize that what a program like
23     that can do for the world, not just our country, but
24     for the world.
25  399                  "Billy Bishop Goes to War", I liked


 1     it.  I have not watched very many programs that I have
 2     not liked.  I suppose there is always some you wouldn't
 3     like, but I don't find that there are many.
 4  400                  But I have to say that "The
 5     Passionate Eye", "The fifth estate", "Witness".  I have
 6     learned more -- what would I say -- more tolerance
 7     through watching programs like that.  I have always
 8     thought I was a pretty tolerant person, but I have
 9     learned to -- I guess understand is a better word -- to
10     understand people and the kinds of predicaments that
11     people can get into.
12  401                  Plus the one thing that I never knew
13     and I doubt that there is very few people that have
14     ever known that there are children out there who are
15     born who have -- born as a little girl and want to be a
16     little boy, born as a boy want to be a little girl.
17  402                  And I never realized that that was
18     something that is a very, very difficult situation
19     until we had a situation in our own family where we
20     were told through a genetic situation we could be faced
21     with the problem of having this.  Our young
22     granddaughter being born and they wouldn't know for
23     sure if she should be a boy or a girl.  And that they
24     would have to, the doctors, would have to make a
25     decision.  I never realized that.


 1  403                  This program was a marvellous program
 2     to help people understand what is out there and how we
 3     should not be prejudiced.  And I have never seen it on
 4     any other channel.  I have never seen it anywhere.  And
 5     it was in three segments.  As it turned out we weren't
 6     faced with that problem, but we could have been.
 7  404                  So I guess I would like to say to you
 8     people, please, our CBC is very important for the unity
 9     of this country.  Even though people don't all
10     understand that.  Sometimes you have to still promote
11     and people will be in to learn and they will begin to
12     understand.  You bring the rural people and the urban
13     people together -- the CBC brings the rural and the
14     urban people together in ways that many, many
15     institutions can't do it.  But you sure can there.
16  405                  I guess I would like to say that we
17     must look after our public broadcasting like we look
18     after our health care, our education -- public
19     education.
20  406                  With that I would like to thank you
21     very much.  I thank you for this wonderful opportunity
22     to speak for the CBC.  And I would also just let you
23     know that I am constantly promoting the CBC.
24  407                  Thank you.
25     --- Applause / Applaudissements


 1  408                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, thank you
 2     very, very much, Ms Hole.
 3  409                  I must say Joe Novak is smiling so
 4     broadly at the back there he can't get the coffee cup
 5     up to his teeth.  So you have made him very happy and
 6     you have certainly made us feel the passion.
 7  410                  And thank you very, very much for
 8     your comments here today.
 9  411                  Michael?
10                                                        1455
11  412                  MR. McWHINNEY:  Can I now invite
12     Mr. Jay Smith to present, please.
14  413                  MR. SMITH:  Thank you.  Mr. Langford,
15     welcome.  I guess you are a juror and a watchdog and a
16     governor with working on the CRTC and the guard of our
17     Canadian interests.
18  414                  Can you -- this is not really
19     hypothetical, but I am quite serious with a mischievous
20     question.  Could you express dissatisfaction with
21     Parliament's financial support of the CBC by
22     withholding a licence for some token station, like in
23     Vancouver or Toronto or Calgary?  Could you withhold
24     licence for one station and say, "This is because we
25     are dissatisfied"?


 1  415                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, I think it --
 2     we have heard some theories today with regard to the
 3     government's attitude that it might be music to their
 4     ears, I'm not sure.
 5  416                  It's a high risk, sir.  And, you
 6     know, the CBC is a creature of statute and our job,
 7     really isn't to take away a licence.  We don't have
 8     that power with regard to the CBC, but we do have the
 9     power to put Conditions of Licence on and to make
10     recommendations with regard to the direction the CBC
11     may want to go or how it may want to use the resources
12     it has.
13  417                  We are not Paul Martin, we would all
14     like to be for a day, but we aren't any more than you
15     are.  So I think really, the best advice I could give
16     on that or the best counsel I think I could give at
17     this stage would be to say that the strength of
18     feelings that I am hearing in this room really are
19     going to have to be sent both to Hull, to us on one
20     side of the Ottawa River and to Ottawa on the other
21     side of the Ottawa River.
22  418                  I think people like yourselves have a
23     double job here today.  I am sorry to throw it back on
24     your shoulders.  But if you read the Broadcasting Act
25     and the enabling legislation for the CBC, we really


 1     don't have the power to do that and I don't think to
 2     play that sort of politics with one community, perhaps,
 3     would be a wise course, even if we did.
 4  419                  I hadn't thought of it before, but
 5     that's -- you asked a question, I'm giving you my quick
 6     reaction to it.
 7  420                  MR. SMITH:  I appreciate that.  I
 8     just wonder if you will let it percolate and see
 9     what -- because Mr. Pritchard mentioned some rather
10     distressing, but actually very valid statistics.
11  421                  He mentioned that private for profit
12     broadcasters in Edmonton are moving in on what we
13     thought -- we, as supporters of the CBC -- was one of
14     the nice things that we could say about the CBC, that
15     it had very highly listened to local television news.
16  422                  Part of the reason why the private
17     broadcasters are doing a better job is that money has
18     been cut from the production facilities at the CBC.  So
19     now, if you tour there and see what they are doing,
20     what they are making use of, I should say, you have
21     facilities equivalent to what you would expect on a
22     community cable television or a television station in a
23     quite small city.
24  423                  There are many ways that we could
25     measure our national broadcaster, I guess.  We could


 1     consider whether it should be elitist or should it be
 2     pandering to popular, you know, to populace interests
 3     or whether it should be profit-making or whether it
 4     should be state propaganda tool.  Another way we could
 5     measure it is, is it serving by presenting the whole
 6     country to itself or is it presenting a Toronto-centric
 7     view or an Ottawa-centric view to the whole country.
 8  424                  Forty or 50 years ago I was lucky
 9     enough to be with present -- I wasn't aware that I was
10     observing this, but the CBC executives were excited
11     over the possibilities, the technical possibilities of
12     becoming less Toronto's national broadcaster.  And they
13     were making very courageous and hard -- a lot of
14     decisions and a lot of hard work went into setting up
15     regional news centres, regional production centres. 
16     And this was building on a very good production
17     organization that they already had and which they began
18     to expand to these centres.
19  425                  It was a major achievement and we
20     have managed to, in the last few administrations and
21     the government in Ottawa, throw it away.
22  426                  Mr. Edwards, Mr. Phair and Mr.
23     Phillips have detailed some of the financial disasters
24     that have happened in Alberta, especially in the
25     Edmonton, Northern Alberta area as a result of this. 


 1     And I am sure you are aware of the cultural disasters
 2     across Canada that have been the result of this, these
 3     cuts, the quality loss is evident in -- well, a
 4     telephone interview cannot achieve on the air, the
 5     factual breadth or the spiritual depth of a documentary
 6     or even a pocket documentary.  Documentaries cost a lot
 7     of money.
 8  427                  Without massive drama and arts
 9     produced and created by us, our country does not have
10     the hope of maintaining a self image of ourselves as a
11     country.
12  428                  There have been a lot of pushing,
13     political pushing, to criticize the CBC for having such
14     a clerical and management and production overload, is
15     what some people have said.  These people, I'm sure,
16     are not aware of how many technical staff and clerical
17     staff and production staff are in the background of a
18     Hollywood movie -- a good Hollywood movie or a New York
19     broadcast.
20  429                  Our CBC investment, when you compare
21     it to the country to the south of us, which is about 10
22     times larger than us, is considerably less than
23     one-tenth the investment that is to the south of us for
24     comparable achieving national ends.  Canada could not
25     achieve the same through private broadcasters.  You


 1     people on the CRTC have agreed with that in that you
 2     have allowed private broadcasters to take up niche
 3     positions.
 4  430                  You have a situation where a national
 5     disaster is the potential of what has been happening. 
 6     If you don't put a lot of pressure on the public and
 7     upon the government officials to make people aware of
 8     this, that is why I said the mischievous thing maybe if
 9     you could cut one radio station from the CBC in Toronto
10     it would be a very -- it would be a mine, it would be
11     an awakening experience for some people.
12  431                  The CRTC, I'm sure, is aware that the
13     CBC is as needed now as it was in the 1920s and 1930s
14     when it was set up.  Canada has grown larger, we have
15     grown more sophisticated.  The cultural input from
16     outside our country has grown much more technically
17     sophisticated as well.  The CBC is still needed.
18  432                  As I have said, local private
19     broadcasters have not been able to do the same thing,
20     even the network private broadcasters have not been
21     able to achieve the goals that have been set for the
22     CBC.
23  433                  As a matter of fact, locally all
24     across Canada, private broadcasters were a major force,
25     even up through the 1950s in helping local culture.  I


 1     think that you will find that -- and I don't want to
 2     mention names, but I think the local private
 3     broadcasters in Edmonton, although they are very proud
 4     of their creative work and they have a right to be,
 5     have not been able to achieve anything comparable,
 6     overall, in their impact on the community.  I don't
 7     want to be disrespectful of my friends in the private
 8     broadcasting industry, but it's a fact.
 9  434                  So you are faced with a situation,
10     you have got a job.  Canada is an irrational country as
11     far as our shape and our population distribution, et
12     cetera, et cetera.  The decision to have the CBC was a
13     sensible decision, it was made by people from every
14     part of the political spectrum and you have possibly a
15     role to play in waking up Canadians to the need for the
16     CBC now.
17  435                  Thank you.
18     --- Applause / Applaudissements
19  436                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
20     much.  And you said at the beginning that we sit as
21     judges and other things, but we sit here mostly as
22     sponges and we are soaking it up and we are going to
23     bring it back and I assure you, your input will be
24     heard.  This is not some sort of an exercise in optics,
25     as the politicos often say.  This is an exercise in


 1     information seeking and information carriage, and we
 2     will be carrying it back with us.
 3  437                  I think perhaps we will hear one more
 4     and that will put us at about the halfway point and
 5     then we will break and take advantage of some of that
 6     coffee and tea that I see out on that table.
 7  438                  So perhaps we could hear one more. 
 8     Michael, where are we?
 9                                                        1505
10  439                  MR. McWHINNEY:  Can I invite Ms Helen
11     Folkmann to present, please.
13  440                  MS FOLKMANN:  Thank you for putting
14     me just before the break.
15  441                  My name is Helen Folkmann and I am
16     happy to be here.  I also have a long history with the
17     CBC, but first I should tell you who I am.
18  442                  First of all, I'm a filmmaker,
19     predominantly that would be in a producer role and what
20     I make are low budget independent films and videos.  I
21     work -- what I do for a job is I am the Executive
22     Director for FAVA, which stands for the Film and Video
23     Arts.  We are a local production and resource centre,
24     cooperatively owned here in Edmonton.  We have just
25     under 250 members who are video and film artists.


 1  443                  Provincially I am on the Board of the
 2     Alberta Media Arts Alliance which represents 900 video
 3     and film artists here in Alberta.  Nationally I am the
 4     Prairie representative for the Independent Film and
 5     Video Alliance, which I am sure your Commission will be
 6     hearing from my counterparts across the country.  There
 7     are over 4,000 video and film artists here in Canada.
 8  444                  Now again, let me emphasize that
 9     these are low budget productions.  I was actually just
10     totting up the productions -- the number of productions
11     I have worked on in the last 10 years.  There have
12     been, actually, 10 productions.  The biggest budget I
13     have ever had to work with was $40,000.  We are
14     creative.
15  445                  Now, in regards to what I do and the
16     arts discipline -- and I will say they are "arts"
17     because it is a range of expression, the people that
18     are in our membership run the gambit from animation
19     artists to video free expression artists to narrative
20     drama to documentary.  Predominantly what these people,
21     artists, produce are generally short form work.  It is
22     generally less than a half an hour, generally more like
23     15 minutes.  And again, that has a lot to do with
24     budget.
25  446                  So how does our work get seen?  Well,


 1     quite often it gets seen in art galleries.  But the CBC
 2     is actually one of the few and a very important venue
 3     in which we can show our work.  And one of those
 4     programs is called "Canadian Reflections".  This is a
 5     show that airs, for some reason, on Friday afternoons
 6     at 3:30, it's a half an hour.  It's 25 years old and
 7     they have been showing consistently short productions
 8     that have come from all parts of Canada.
 9  447                  I was very happy to see that they
10     have just, since January, been able to add one extra
11     half hour, which is Sunday nights at 11:30, and I guess
12     they can get a little edgy now because it's late night,
13     but this is a huge boon for people from my sector.  And
14     it's not just the fact that we can -- okay, this is why
15     it is a boon.
16  448                  First of all, CBC lets -- is a
17     national broadcaster.  So work -- and I'm hoping that I
18     can sell one of my projects to the "Canadian
19     Reflections", I'm looking at the fact that something
20     that has been produced here in Edmonton can be seen
21     right across the country, and that's wonderful because
22     it is a good piece.
23  449                  The other thing is that CBC -- there
24     are not many other broadcasters that are interested in
25     short films or videos, for that matter.  The few that


 1     are are in the -- I gather they are in the higher --
 2     --- Technical difficulties / Problèmes techniques
 3  450                  MS FOLKMANN:  -- regional level. 
 4     Although we have a national venue, we don't have a
 5     regional venue.  I was heartened by the fact that Joe
 6     Novak, the Regional Director is interested in showing
 7     our stories, but I mean, this gives you an indication
 8     of perhaps how much power he has as a Regional
 9     Director.
10  451                  He was able to buy one of my -- one
11     of the fellow member works recently and we got to see
12     it in February.  It was a short film, it was called
13     "Samurai Swing", it came from a local artist here,
14     Miaka Ochi(ph).  But the only place he could show it
15     was during the six o'clock news.  I don't -- I mean it
16     was great that it was seen, but don't you think it is
17     odd that the only place he could show it was on the
18     news.  I think he should have been able to show it in
19     another place and I wish he could have.
20  452                  And perhaps, maybe it will be a
21     regular news feature, I would really love to talk to
22     him about it at some point.  But, you know, I think we
23     should be able to see it.  So there, that's enough for
24     that.
25  453                  As far as demographic, I mean, it's


 1     pretty obvious that there's a heavy weight on one
 2     demographic and I would like to point out to you that I
 3     had made a big poll of people from my membership. 
 4     Their ages range from 18 to 45 with the -- well, the
 5     average being around 28 years old.  To a person -- and
 6     I talked to 27 people -- to a person, they all said
 7     they wanted to see more regional programming.  They
 8     wanted to see work that came out of Edmonton or Alberta
 9     or, for that matter, the Prairies.
10  454                  They lamented the demise of a show
11     that did, at one point, come out of Edmonton, it was
12     called "Rough Cuts".  It was, in fact, broadcast
13     nationally, it was an excellent show and it looked at a
14     range of things in a very fresh and innovative way.  It
15     disappeared in the last budget cuts.
16  455                  To a person they lamented the fact
17     that CBC as a news gatherer seemed to be losing its
18     broad perspective and this was disappointing.  And they
19     wished that it would become what it once was.
20  456                  And finally, just to sum up, CBC is
21     very important to what it is that I do, what it is that
22     my colleagues in the film and video arts and in the
23     broader arts community do.  It's vital.  CBC in a local
24     area -- in a local way and in a national way has been
25     instrumental in publicising things that my -- things


 1     and events that my organization does.  They have been
 2     very good at returning phone calls and I have been able
 3     to hear my organization's work on a national level,
 4     like, for example, the arts broadcast or the "Arts
 5     Report", that's very important.
 6  457                  It's also enabled me to hear what
 7     else is going on in the arts scene.  They have been
 8     very responsive to the arts scene here in Edmonton.
 9  458                  We would obviously like to see it
10     strengthened, but we would particularly like to hear
11     our stories be added to the national mix, because if
12     they aren't then it isn't truly national.
13  459                  Thank you very much for hearing me.
14     --- Applause / Applaudissements
15  460                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
16     much.
17  461                  I should say that there are CBC
18     representatives here.  I mentioned Joe Novak, and some
19     of his colleagues and we are going to give them an
20     opportunity to say a few words when we wrap up each
21     session, which we think will be around 5:00, but
22     sometimes it goes a little later.  And then the next
23     one will be at the end of the evening.  But we will
24     give CBC a chance and we are here to hear from you, but
25     we think, you know, when in the regions it is fair that


 1     they get to listen too and get to, if not respond, at
 2     least acknowledge what they are hearing and share some
 3     of their views with you.
 4  462                  Now, if it is all right with you, we
 5     will take about a 10-minute break, unless there is
 6     somebody here who just desperately has to get to the
 7     dentist or something and needs to give his or her
 8     presentation, then of course we will jig things around. 
 9     But if we can take a 10-minute break, this seems like
10     an ideal time to do it.  So we will see you back here
11     in about 10 minutes.
12  463                  Thank you.
13     --- Recess at 1515 / Suspension à 1515
14     --- Upon resuming at 1535 / Reprise à 1535
15  464                  MR. McWHINNEY:  Okay.  Can I invite
16     Mr. Lawrence Crosthwaite, please, to present.
18  465                  MR. CROSTHWAITE:  You caught me with
19     a candy in my mouth.
20  466                  Mr. Chairman, fellow presenters,
21     ladies and gentlemen, my name is Lawrence Crosthwaite
22     and I live in Lloydminster, Saskatchewan.
23  467                  I'm 65 years of age and I have
24     listened to CBC Radio from my childhood.  My father was
25     a teacher and an avid CBC listener, was so much a


 1     listener that he had a radio in his classroom in his
 2     school where he taught as a principal in Yorkton,
 3     Saskatchewan many years ago BTV, and that's "before
 4     television".
 5  468                  I grew up with Lorne Greene and Jack
 6     Benny and Fred Allen(ph) and John Fisher(ph).  You
 7     remember John Fisher, Mr. Canada?  With "John Fisher
 8     Reports" on radio, it is a long time ago.
 9  469                  I grew up with weather reports and
10     sports and local and national news.  And the local news
11     then was truly local from all over Saskatchewan.
12  470                  When I left home I joined the Navy
13     and I left the CBC, not because I didn't like it, but
14     because I was young and I wasn't very interested and
15     radio on board a ship in those days was hard to come by
16     and we didn't get CBC in Korea.
17  471                  Many years later after I married and
18     television was around, my family and myself became
19     partners with CBC.  The CBC produced it and we watched
20     it and we listened.  And the programming on TV was
21     varied with both Canadian and American content and we
22     had no problem with this.
23  472                  Radio introduced us to Gzowski and
24     Gabereau, Enright and Maitland, Sinclair and Frum, just
25     to name a few.  We heard about Canada from coast to


 1     coast and from the Territories.  We heard these
 2     people's humour, their frustrations, their sadness, but
 3     we heard them.
 4  473                  Then something happened.  The network
 5     got better, it got smarter and it got bolder.  It was
 6     capable of producing top notch television and radio
 7     programming, it was beginning to show Canadians what
 8     was really happening in their land and in our
 9     legislatures.  And this showed us, for the first time,
10     the soft underbelly of our government and its leaders.
11  474                  The government didn't like this very
12     much and became involved with the CBC as it never had
13     in the past.  Now CBC had to answer to nervous,
14     frightened and sometimes vicious politicians and
15     bureaucrats.  The CBC changed because the CBC had its
16     own bureaucrats and its own nervous nellies.
17  475                  The CBC was no longer master in its
18     own house.  The result of this is the Government of
19     Canada, and there are no exclusions here, appoints the
20     Board of Directors, not only for the CBC, but for the
21     Commission who is to oversee the broadcasting and
22     investigating and licensing of the CBC.
23  476                  So we have here two appointed bodies
24     who answer only to certain select government members,
25     trying to find out what Canadians think of the CBC and


 1     what should be done for the future.
 2  477                  I urge the following:
 3  478                  The CBC Board of Directors be elected
 4     by the listeners.  There be at least one member from
 5     each province and territory.  The Board is not paid,
 6     its members receive an allowance to travel not to
 7     exceed a reasonable agreed upon amount.
 8  479                  The Board is accountable only to the
 9     CBC shareholders, that is the listeners and viewers of
10     the CBC.  In other words, the Canadian people.
11  480                  That the CBC staff do their jobs
12     without interference from the Board or the government. 
13     Provide the CBC with a guaranteed income with no
14     reductions and a 2 per cent increase in funding each
15     year for the next 10 years, such funding to be spent on
16     creative people and programming and not on bureaucrats
17     and administrators.
18  481                  Provide funding to ensure that all
19     Canadians have equal access to service of what the
20     residents of Toronto and Vancouver now receive.  In
21     other words, the people will have the same clarity and
22     the same variety of broadcast even if you live in
23     Lloydminster.
24  482                  Provide programming that reflects the
25     national interest and not the centre of itself of


 1     Toronto and Ottawa.  Provide the regions with the
 2     financial and technical ability to better provide for
 3     local and regional programming.
 4  483                  And this is one that the wife stuck
 5     in for me.  Get rid of that blasted every half hour
 6     news which interrupts the proper flow of programs.
 7  484                  I maintain that we have an aging
 8     population who has listened all these years to
 9     Gzowski's and Gabereau's shows and we felt comfortable
10     with them.  They spoke our language.  They asked our
11     questions and they are gone.  And we do not have
12     replacements that care or replacements that are
13     discouraged from being themselves and they are towing
14     the corporate line.
15  485                  "Cross Country Checkup" in my opinion
16     is a farce.  After the host pontificates his position,
17     we must then endure minutes of selected guest experts
18     who take up reams of time and then we find that the
19     callers are carefully screened and we seldom hear a
20     dissenting opinion.  Far too much time is wasted.  Why
21     not throw it open to the public like any other open
22     line show and really hear the voice of the country?
23  486                  What of the future of the CBC?  If
24     the medium of both TV and radio does not inform,
25     entertain and enlighten its audience, it will surely


 1     lose them.  If bureaucracy does not get out of the way
 2     of the CBC it will slowly fade into oblivion.  If we do
 3     not accept a reasonable balance between our talents and
 4     those from outside our borders, the future of CBC is
 5     limited.
 6  487                  Canadian Content rules and
 7     regulations will not move the CBC from mediocrity and
 8     poor programming.  The communications giant has woken
 9     and CBC and regulating bodies must realize this. 
10     Satellite dishes and receivers allow people to watch as
11     they please.  There is no longer a captive audience.
12  488                  I submit if these hearings fail again
13     to hear what Canadians are saying and choose not to
14     change, shortly the CBC will not need to hold these
15     hearings as the CBC will no longer exist.
16  489                  I would like to make a couple of just
17     brief comments, if I may, aside from this, it will take
18     a couple of seconds.
19  490                  They are talking about a third radio
20     station.  We in Lloydminster would be tickled pink to
21     get one that we can hear, because we can't get -- we
22     are kind of unique in there because we can pick up
23     Edmonton and Regina if the weather's okay.  It is kind
24     of like being in the Arctic, you know.  When at night,
25     particularly if we get Northern Lights, you can forget


 1     about radio.  And a lot of people don't believe this.
 2  491                  CBC from Edmonton, the signal drops,
 3     I believe it is 6:30 at night because of some
 4     arrangement with the American thing or something from a
 5     long time ago.  And with all due respect to you and
 6     everybody that's here, I couldn't care less about the
 7     Americans.  I want my CBC.
 8     --- Applause / Applaudissements
 9  492                  MR. CROSTHWAITE:  We don't get any
10     Saskatchewan news on TV in Lloydminster, you have to go
11     all the way to, virtually, Saskatoon, because the dish
12     that we use picks up Calgary.  So at night, for news
13     broadcasting there is no Saskatchewan news and as yet,
14     they haven't set it up so that we can put another
15     channel of CBC on and then pick up Regina or Saskatoon. 
16     And that's just --
17  493                  There was something mentioned about
18     "The Valour and The Horror".  And I just wanted to say
19     that history isn't always beautiful.
20  494                  Lately we have been getting on radio
21     in the morning on the "Morning Show" that starts at
22     nine o'clock, once a week we get 10 minutes of
23     Saskatchewan news.  This morning I heard 10 minutes of
24     Manitoba news.  That's it for the week.
25  495                  I guess -- I have a question, I would


 1     sure like to know where Terry Milewsky went.  Because
 2     he spoke, as you know, told us what was going on on the
 3     coast and then he mysteriously disappeared.
 4     --- Applause / Applaudissements
 5  496                  MR. CROSTHWAITE:  I have got a little
 6     problem with these guys in Ottawa, I'm sorry, sir.  But
 7     I have got a little problem with these guys in Ottawa
 8     and to some extent the guys in Regina and Edmonton and
 9     Victoria.
10  497                  I got a sneaking hunch they don't
11     know how to deal with this medium.  They have
12     discovered that if they get up in the morning and Mr.
13     Clark found this out -- God, if he comes home late
14     there is a TV camera in his backyard and he may not
15     like it and I don't like it, but it is there.
16  498                  Politicians have to understand that
17     the people are more intelligent of what is going on
18     around them than ever before.  And maybe they are
19     intimidated.  Maybe they are intimidated when CBC runs
20     the House so that we find out what is going on in
21     Parliament, or better still on television you can watch
22     it.
23  499                  I must admit I have never seen such a
24     bunch of yahoos in all my life.  They don't seem to
25     understand that they were elected to go there and ask


 1     questions for us.  And all we are asking is that there
 2     be an answer, but we don't get it from the government. 
 3     And I digress, I'm sorry.
 4  500                  But I guess maybe this medium, the
 5     television and the radio, has made it that it becomes
 6     more difficult for accountability, because it seems to
 7     be absent.  And I am hoping that as you go across this
 8     great land of ours, talk to people, listen to people,
 9     and when you go back and you find that, holy smokes, we
10     got a whole bunch of Canadians that kind of like CBC. 
11     And so much so that maybe, maybe they would like to see
12     it improved and that maybe, maybe when you are talking
13     to whoever it is from government, because you have to
14     approach somebody, I guess, and somebody could slide in
15     a little thing that says, "I would like to suggest that
16     you come up with a couple of bucks for these guys and
17     let's let them have their network back".
18     --- Applause / Applaudissements
19  501                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
20     much, sir, for coming from Lloydminster and I
21     appreciate that very much, we all do.  But I have no
22     questions, you were perfectly clear.
23  502                  Michael?
24                                                        1535
25  503                  MR. McWHINNEY:  Can I invite


 1     Mr. Henry Kuchison, please.
 3  504                  MR. KUCHISON:  Hi.  I first want to
 4     thank the CRTC for giving me an opportunity to make a
 5     presentation like I am able to today.  This is the
 6     first time that I have ever made a presentation of any
 7     sort on a topic like this and I think maybe that
 8     indicates how strong my feelings are about what is
 9     happening.
10  505                  I'm an Edmonton resident and I have
11     no -- what would you call it? -- great credentials like
12     some of my predecessors here, but I will attempt to
13     indicate to you what the CBC means to me.
14  506                  I have been a listener to the CBC for
15     at least the past 50 years and have always been
16     impressed with how this media entity gathers and
17     disseminates news and information to the Canadian
18     public.  I find that one can tune into the CBC Radio at
19     almost any time and hear a program on a topic that is
20     being discussed that will capture ones interest.
21  507                  You will hear coverage covering
22     politics, sports, arts, economics, science, medicine,
23     general interest stories and so forth.  The programs
24     are always presented at a layman's level of
25     understanding, which is a real credit to this


 1     organization.
 2  508                  And I ask you, what other media
 3     outlet covers such a wide spectrum?  And I don't think
 4     there is one, and I don't think anyone can name one. 
 5     And as such, I almost have to feel that CBC is almost
 6     the culture of Canada and should be preserved at all
 7     costs.
 8  509                  I greatly admire the journalistic
 9     professionalism of this organization and I consider its
10     news reporting is far more reliable than many other
11     sources.  The CBC does not seem to be bound by hidden
12     agendas or self-interests as other media sources are.
13  510                  For example, private media
14     programmers must be very careful in airing programs
15     that might be critical of the corporate sector actions,
16     particularly of those corporations that advertise with
17     that media source since advertising is the source of
18     the media's income, consequently they can't -- they
19     must observe this if they wish to survive.
20  511                  And this is understandable and I
21     don't disagree with this, but -- and if ones survival
22     is at stake, he's surely not going to bite the hand
23     that feeds him.  The result, however, is that the
24     private medium will shy away from a lot of issues which
25     I do not think is in the public interest.


 1  512                  CBC, on the other hand, while it is
 2     also dependent somewhat on the advertising dollar,
 3     that's TV only, tends to be more moved from this
 4     influence and therefore can be more objective, which is
 5     what the media should be.  CBC Radio has no advertising
 6     and is therefore further removed from that influence.
 7  513                  Because the CBC receives most of its
 8     funding from the government, it could be subject to
 9     political influences in its news reporting.  However,
10     judging by some of the programs that have been aired,
11     such as the Airbus scandal or more recently the APEC
12     incident in Vancouver, it would appear that this has
13     not been a major factor.
14  514                  I do suspect that the present
15     government is somewhat hostile towards the CBC over the
16     coverage of the APEC incident and will retaliate by
17     their further cutbacks in funding or by encouraging the
18     present strike to continue, or by attempting to
19     privatize this organization.
20  515                  The CBC is very professional in
21     conducting its interviews on contentious issues. 
22     Whether or not I agree with the views expressed, I am
23     always impressed how the interviewers will have a guest
24     air his views on a contentious issue and then provide
25     equal time to someone on the opposite side of the


 1     issue.  And I really stress that, because that is
 2     something that is not done in other media sources.
 3  516                  The CBC interviews will always ask
 4     probing questions, but the interviewer will never
 5     express his opinion.  It is up to the audience to make
 6     up their own mind after the program is over.
 7  517                  I have never seen or heard a CBC
 8     interviewer be rude to a guest or chide him for his
 9     views.  Unfortunately, I cannot say the same for other
10     radio stations that I have been tuned in to.  In fact,
11     I have heard incidents that are totally embarrassing to
12     the guest and to the audience.  The way the CBC handles
13     this truly represents, I think, freedom of speech and
14     this is what democracy is about and this is what Canada
15     is about.
16  518                  The news reporting for CBC is far
17     more reliable and dependable in my opinion.  While I am
18     sure that it, too, is subject to inaccuracies, I am
19     prepared to trust this news source more than any other.
20  519                  As an example, last November the City
21     of Edmonton sent out revised tax assessments to reflect
22     market value assessment for all residential properties. 
23     When I received mine I was upset that the valuation was
24     far above the market value and I attempted to call City
25     Hall several times, but had no success in getting


 1     through.
 2  520                  That evening on the six o'clock news
 3     one TV station reported that there were very few
 4     complaints and it was relatively a quiet day at City
 5     Hall.  The CBC version, however, was that City Hall had
 6     been swamped with calls, which confirmed my experience. 
 7     Later in the week, a newspaper article stated that
 8     there were more than 9,000 calls on Monday, the first
 9     day, and 11,146 calls on Tuesday.  Yet, one TV station
10     reported this as "very few" complaints.
11  521                  I ask you, is this responsible
12     reporting?  Why was it reported this way and, you know,
13     is there a hidden agenda?  Was there an attempt to hide
14     facts or simply inaccurate reporting?  I don't know.
15  522                  But CBC Radio is very informative. 
16     From 6:00 in the morning until 9:00 in the morning you
17     get local news and local issues are aired.  From 9:00
18     till 12:00, the concentration is more national topics,
19     information is presented from all other provinces and
20     the audience finds out what is happening in other parts
21     of Canada.  And I find this very informative and very
22     useful to me.  And this really gives Canadians an
23     opportunity to see how they relate with each other.
24  523                  From 12:00 to 2:00 in the afternoon,
25     you get more of the same, but this is restricted to the


 1     provincial issues.  And these are most interesting
 2     forums and I must say that after hearing both sides of
 3     an issue I have had my mind changed on more than one
 4     occasion.  Nothing is totally black and white and I
 5     don't think that anybody brings that out better than
 6     the CBC in the media.
 7  524                  From six o'clock to 8:00 p.m., you
 8     get "As It Happens".  Again, an excellent program,
 9     which, because of its high quality has a large
10     listening audience in the U.S. also.  This, indeed, is
11     another credit to the CBC as it probably is one of the
12     only Canadian media sources that penetrates the
13     American market to that extent.
14  525                  As an aside on "As It Happens", on
15     Tuesday evening, the Premier of Saskatchewan was
16     interviewed about passing legislation prohibiting an
17     elected MLA to cross the floor to another political
18     party without first resigning and having a by-election
19     to ensure his constituents were in agreement with this. 
20     There has been a lot of critical discussion on this
21     point in the past here in Alberta and elsewhere in
22     Canada, yet no other media source, that I am aware of,
23     has reported on that.  And you know, interesting, why
24     not?
25  526                  After midnight we get CBC programming


 1     from Europe, Australia, Africa and they, again, are
 2     most enlightened as they indicate what's happening on
 3     the world scene.  As an example, about two weeks ago on
 4     one of these programs, there was a news report that a
 5     privatized electrical utilities in Buenos Aires had
 6     failed and had been in operation for 10 days.  And
 7     considerable havoc had been created with this and the
 8     government appeared to be powerless about doing
 9     anything about this.
10  527                  Right now, we are looking at
11     privatizing electrical utility in this City.  It would
12     appear to me that this Buenos Aires incident would be a
13     very timely news item.  An investigation into what
14     caused it would be, I think, of great interest to us as
15     consumers and whether it could also happen here.  Yet,
16     to my knowledge, this has never been reported in any
17     other media here in Edmonton.  And one is left to
18     wonder why not.
19  528                  Earlier, I had referred to the
20     influence of advertising on programming.  About four or
21     five years ago, the City of Edmonton hosted the World
22     Figure Skating Championships and the coverage of the
23     event was handled by a TV station other than the CBC.
24  529                  Advertising was so extensive that
25     portions of the event were cut off to accommodate it. 


 1     This prompted many complaints, letters to newspapers
 2     and criticism of the TV coverage.  And I submit that
 3     this would never have happened had the CBC been
 4     covering that event.
 5     --- Applause / Applaudissements
 6  530                  MR. KUCHISON:  When I listen to other
 7     radio stations, I find that at least 80 per cent of the
 8     time is devoted to hit parade music and advertising.  I
 9     don't want to be over critical of this, because I
10     realize that this does appeal to a segment of the
11     population and advertising is the only means of
12     survival for the stations.  There is, in my opinion,
13     however not too much substance to this and it really
14     does very little to promote Canadian culture.
15  531                  It should also be noted that in the
16     remote, sparsely populated parts of the country,
17     Northern Canada is what I'm referring to here, where
18     advertising is not profitable, the sole media source is
19     the CBC.  And I think one has to wonder, like, should
20     the CBC be privatized or, you know, cease to be in
21     existence just what will be happening with those people
22     there.
23  532                  In conclusion, I must state that the
24     CBC is one of the most critical mainstays to the
25     preservation of the Canadian culture and I think you


 1     should make every effort to ensure that it stays that
 2     way.  I am sure that there is a segment of the
 3     population to which the CBC does not appeal to, but as
 4     it now stands we have a choice to listen to what we
 5     want to and I would strongly insist that it remain so.
 6  533                  According to a letter in the Edmonton
 7     Journal and that was by one of the previous speakers
 8     here, Mrs. Hole, according to her article, the cost of
 9     the CBC -- it would cost every Canadian $27 a year to
10     run the CBC and this is truly a small price to pay for
11     the value that we get.  I, personally, would be
12     prepared to pay double that amount to ensure that we
13     continue to have this organization operate as it is
14     operating now.
15  534                  And that ends my presentation.  I
16     thank you very much for listening.
17     --- Applause / Applaudissements
18  535                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
19     much, sir.  No questions, you were very clear.  We know
20     exactly where you stand, I do not have you in the
21     "undecided" column.
22                                                        1547
23  536                  Michael, our next speaker.  Would you
24     mind switching your microphone off, sir.  Thank you.
25  537                  MR. McWHINNEY:  I would just like to


 1     indicate before we go on that for those of you have the
 2     agenda, we are continuing as best as we can through the
 3     agenda in order.
 4     --- Technical difficulties / Problèmes techniques
 6  538                  MS BENCZ:  -- representing the
 7     Edmonton Gleaners' Association, which is better known
 8     as Edmonton's Food Bank.  We are a central warehouse
 9     that collects and redistributes food to over 100
10     agencies, churches and food depots in Edmonton and
11     area.  Each month we provide food to over 16,000 people
12     through the hamper programs and we also provide food to
13     200,000 meals and snacks each month.
14  539                  CBC, and particularly CBC Radio, has
15     been instrumental in promoting our food drives as we
16     have needed them.  They, as an organization, have been
17     very supportive of and promoted their own turkey drive
18     at Christmas and last year that particular drive raised
19     over 2,200 turkeys for our organization -- and that's a
20     lot of turkeys.
21  540                  In addition to helping our
22     organization on a local basis, there is definitely fall
23     out to other food banks across Alberta who benefit by
24     being listeners and having donors listening to CBC and
25     encouraging them to participate.


 1  541                  While most people want to support
 2     local charities and help them out, I think the other
 3     way that I would like to say that CBC is very special
 4     in our community is that hard issues like poverty often
 5     don't get the coverage that are needed.  We serve an
 6     isolated group of people, about 5 per cent of the
 7     population, who are often very disadvantaged and feel
 8     that their issues aren't heard by the larger
 9     population.  And these issues are complex and they
10     require in-depth reporting.  And that is what makes CBC
11     and in particular, CBC Radio stand out, is that they
12     will take that time to look at the issues, to dig a
13     little deeper to find out what causes these issues in
14     our communities.
15  542                  And it is very important that the
16     public is aware of what causes hunger, what causes
17     poverty in our communities and that there is some
18     public discussion around that.  And I feel really
19     passionately that CBC has been a voice of many issues
20     such as hunger and poverty in our community and I would
21     certainly encourage CBC to continue to do so.
22  543                  I have also been fortunate to work a
23     little closer with CBC staff because of their interest
24     in these issues.  And over the last few years, I feel
25     that they have been under a lot of pressure because of


 1     cuts and changes.  And I just want to say that as a
 2     group they have represented Canadians very well and
 3     brought forward those issues despite having to feel a
 4     little bit of pressure themselves and rearrange
 5     schedules and to try to keep doing things right, even
 6     though they are under those kinds of pressures.  So I
 7     would really like to add that to the discussion today
 8     that a lot of respect and credit needs to go to those
 9     individuals on the air and behind the scenes that make
10     it happen.
11  544                  I certainly -- I will keep my
12     comments brief because so many speakers have spoken
13     today and their comments have been great and I would
14     just be repeating what they have already said.
15  545                  So I will just close by saying that I
16     agree with Lois Hole 100 per cent, "This Hour has 22
17     Minutes" is very special.  It's the only show that my
18     14-year old and my parents can both watch and both
19     enjoy and both understand at the same time.
20  546                  So I will close with that.
21     --- Applause / Applaudissements
22  547                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much
23     and if you have a 14-year old working for charity, it
24     must be good for you, as you don't look old enough.
25  548                  Michael?


 1                                                        1600
 2  549                  MR. McWHINNEY:  Can I invite
 3     Mr. Andrew Raeburn, please.
 5  550                  MR. RAEBURN:  Good afternoon.  I am
 6     President and Artistic Director of the Ester
 7     Honan's(ph) Calgary International Piano Competition.  I
 8     speak also on behalf of Mrs. Jenny Belzberg(ph) who is
 9     Chairperson of the Ester Honan's Competition.
10  551                  The competition has worked closely
11     with the CBC for the past seven years.  The CBC ought,
12     in my view, to give attention to more aspects of
13     Canadian life than any other broadcaster in the nation,
14     and I believe that it does so, especially on radio.
15  552                  The coverage given news, current
16     events and sports on television is first-class.  There
17     is something of a void in live television coverage of
18     arts events.
19  553                  As for radio, coverage in every area
20     of Canadian life is largely admirable.  Despite recent
21     protests about partiality, I find the CBC more
22     even-handed in its coverage of politics than any other
23     broadcaster in Canada.
24  554                  It also seems to me appropriate that
25     the CBC should, from time to time, turn its hand to


 1     investigative reporting.  Apart from all else, there is
 2     little point in having a national broadcaster of record
 3     whose programs are unwatched or unheard and such
 4     reporting helps build audience share.
 5  555                  As for the question whether the CBC
 6     serves the public on various levels, I find that on
 7     both Radio One and Radio Two, local, regional and
 8     national coverage are in happy balance.  Locally we
 9     hear interviews and round table discussions with and
10     between politicians, commentators, cultural and
11     educational leaders who talk about many matters and
12     events of interest in their communities, very often
13     amplifying on the much more skimpy material provided by
14     the printed media.
15  556                  The interesting plans for Radio
16     Three, to which Mr. Langford and a couple of other
17     speakers have already referred, show that the CBC will
18     reach out even further to Canadians of all ages.
19  557                  On the strictly musical front, the
20     CBC gives Canadian orchestras, chamber musicians, solo
21     artists and the three international music competitions
22     based here in Alberta, a nationwide forum which would
23     otherwise be totally unavailable to them.  This
24     coverage is absolutely vital to the continuing health
25     of music in Canada and to music by Canadian composers. 


 1     The links which the CBC has to other broadcasters
 2     throughout the world means that such work is made
 3     available internationally.
 4  558                  As for positioning its programming in
 5     relation to other broadcasters, I believe it important
 6     that all CBC offerings reflect a corporate philosophy. 
 7     How greatly that means programming should differ from
 8     that of other broadcasters must of course depend on
 9     that philosophy.
10  559                  Viewers in the United States have a
11     good idea of the fare they will find on PBS and
12     Canadians will similarly recognize the Bravo! style.  I
13     have no doubt that the CBC goes through an ongoing
14     exercise to try to find and maintain a unique identity,
15     although the constant downsizing over the past few
16     years and the simmering labour disputes must have made
17     it extremely difficult.
18  560                  The millennium is acting as a spur to
19     dramatic change in many spheres of activity.  Where it
20     undermines complacency it is healthy; where it produces
21     change for the sake of change the results may be less
22     happy.  It seems to me that in the present end of the
23     century mood, the CBC should be reactive rather than
24     proactive in making change, that it should continue
25     steadily and deliberately altering the face of its


 1     programming in line with its philosophy.
 2  561                  In summary, I believe that the CBC is
 3     doing a fine job in trying circumstances, that the
 4     majority of broadcasters, producers and technicians are
 5     dedicated and conscientious and that Canadian culture
 6     and Canadians would be greatly the poorer without the
 7     CBC's programs.
 8  562                  I strongly support the re-licensing
 9     of the CBC.
10     --- Applause / Applaudissements
11  563                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
12     much, sir.  One question.
13  564                  We have, as you know, the right, some
14     might say the duty, but we certainly have the right and
15     the power to require to put Conditions of Licence on
16     the CBC and that has been done in the past in dramatic
17     ways about Canadian content, going back 30 years and
18     the CBC has responded, I must say, brilliantly and
19     sensitively to this.  In fact, they exceed their
20     Canadian content.  It's a matter of -- I am not here to
21     praise the CBC, but it is a matter of public record
22     they exceed their Canadian content requirements.
23  565                  But there is Canadian content and
24     there is Canadian content.  And your association with
25     piano and live performances perhaps point out one of


 1     the areas where Canadian content is at its weakest,
 2     particularly on television and that is in live
 3     broadcasts of concerts, dance, theatre.
 4  566                  Do you feel you are getting enough of
 5     that on the CBC, particularly on television?
 6  567                  MR. RAEBURN:  No, I don't feel that
 7     we get enough of that, unfortunately.  And I suspect
 8     one of the reasons may well be that the union mandated
 9     fees of the artists are rather out of the reach of more
10     than an occasional telecast or broadcast.  And that is
11     a matter of considerable sadness to me.
12  568                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  I suspect you may
13     be right.
14  569                  Thank you very much.
15     --- Applause / Applaudissements
16                                                        1605
17  570                  MR. McWHINNEY:  Could I invite
18     Ms Diane Webster to present, please.
20  571                  MS WEBSTER:  Good afternoon, ladies
21     and gentlemen.  Thank you for giving me the opportunity
22     to speak with you about the CBC and the CRTC licensing.
23  572                  For the better part of 60 years I
24     have been a loyal, devoted and one might say, welded
25     listener to CBC Radio.  My husband and I have derived


 1     many hours of pleasure, joy and intellectual
 2     stimulation from the programming provided by CBC Radio
 3     and Television.
 4  573                  From the early days with Max Ferguson
 5     and Allan McPhee(ph) to the present, the programming
 6     has been excellent, and at times, so outstanding and
 7     exceptional that it takes your breath away and touches
 8     your soul.
 9  574                  As we know, the past two years have
10     very difficult and unsettled for the CBC and her
11     supporters.  Budgets have been continually reduced
12     which has resulted in downsizing and increasing
13     uncertainty on the part of CBC staff and management, as
14     well as her supporters.
15  575                  I can only imagine the extreme level
16     of stress experienced by the people on the other side
17     of the dial or channel and I sympathize.  But I can,
18     without hesitation, tell you how frustrating and
19     upsetting these disruptions to programming and the
20     uncertainty of the future of the CBC is to those of us
21     on the receiving side of the transmission.
22  576                  It is not my place to cast blame or
23     point fingers, but it seems to me that the recognition
24     of the CBC as an integral part of our Canadian
25     identity, coupled with the appropriate funding to


 1     accomplish this goal, is at the crux of the matter.  To
 2     this end, I have written to the Honourable Sheila Copps
 3     asking her to provide assistance.
 4  577                  To say that the CBC is an integral
 5     part of our Canadian identity is an understatement.  As
 6     a military family, we lived in several parts of the
 7     world and have travelled quite extensively.  The one
 8     constant in our lives is the CBC.  Although we are
 9     retired now, our travelling days are not over and no
10     matter where we venture, we look for and find the CBC,
11     which makes us feel connected and comfortable.
12  578                  While living in Europe, our CBC
13     programming was provided by the Canadian Forces Network
14     on a one or two-day delay, except for the news which
15     was current.  We looked forward to that delayed
16     programming like a thirsty person in the desert
17     searching for water.  We were connected to Canada and
18     comfortable.
19  579                  The same applies to travelling in
20     foreign countries.  Radio Canada International is the
21     lifeline.  The CBC binds us, no other broadcaster
22     accomplishes this.
23  580                  As you can see, I am very concerned
24     that we could lose the CBC with its intelligent
25     reporters and journalists, researchers, producers and,


 1     as we have experienced over the past month, its
 2     invaluable technical crew.  Exceptional programming
 3     flows from this team and we must preserve the medium
 4     that allows them to do what they do so well.
 5  581                  In order to preserve this medium,
 6     perhaps we have to look beyond the status quo and take
 7     a few painful steps in order to reach the goal of a
 8     healthy and productive corporation.
 9  582                  I heard that senior management is
10     thinking of adding another radio station to the four
11     currently existing.  This one would appeal to 18- to
12     21-year olds.  To my mind this is folly.  Whether or
13     not this concept would work is beside the point at this
14     stage.  When your budget is stretched past the breaking
15     point, you do not embark on a new venture.  The CBC
16     cannot be all things to all people.
17  583                  The CBC should economize, perhaps
18     even consider consolidating -- this might be heresy --
19     combining Radio One and Two, English and French
20     respectively, for a while and produce programming that
21     would appeal to all her supporters.  There is some
22     repetition between Radio One and Radio Two right now.
23  584                  Then, as time and money allow,
24     expand.  We are all pleased with the many choices and
25     options we now have.  But in order to save this jewel


 1     of a broadcaster we must be sensible.
 2  585                  Another viable possibility may be a
 3     subscription system which has already been mentioned. 
 4     I am certain that this has been discussed as an
 5     alternative to advertising on radio.  PBS TV out of
 6     Seattle, Washington does this effectively and they are
 7     able to produce excellent programming.  Our family
 8     would be willing to pay $30 to $40 a year to subscribe
 9     to CBC Radio and Television.
10  586                  In closing I would like to say a word
11     about our local or regional programming.  It is a
12     lifeline for us.  Even though we are out and about
13     doing our daily business, it is essential to know that
14     the airwaves will bring us those familiar voices with a
15     click of the dial.  The reporters, journalists and
16     hosts, along with the background crew, have become a
17     part of our extended family and as such, we trust them
18     to complement our lives.
19  587                  A commentator on the radio referring
20     to the current labour difficulties said something about
21     the general public perhaps being so concerned about
22     health care problems to give much thought to the CBC. 
23     Well, health care delivery and reform are major
24     concerns, but to my mind, the CBC is health care for
25     the soul and the spirit.  We must preserve this public


 1     broadcaster, there is not an alternative anywhere.
 2  588                  Thank you.
 3     --- Applause / Applaudissements
 4  589                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  We welcome heresy
 5     here.  Mr. Crosthwaite earlier could refer to Rex
 6     Murphy as "pontificating", I'm sure you can get away
 7     with some suggestions on how to save some money.
 8  590                  Thank you very much.
 9  591                  Michael?
10                                                        1611
11  592                  MR. McWHINNEY:  Can I now invite
12     Mr. Tim Willis to speak, please.
14  593                  MR. WILLIS:  Thank you and good
15     afternoon and I appreciate being given the opportunity
16     to speak.
17  594                  I am the Manager of Exhibits and
18     Marketing at the Provincial Museum of Alberta and I
19     would like to speak in support of CBC's role as a
20     community partner.
21  595                  In 1990 the Provincial Museum of
22     Alberta embarked on a series of unique exhibitions and
23     programs aimed at developing new audiences and
24     increasing its own self-sufficiency at a time of
25     enormous budgetary restraint.  As a result of this


 1     initiative, the Museum has experienced a
 2     revitalization.
 3  596                  Over the past nine years our
 4     audiences have enjoyed 20 unique community events, the
 5     replacement of 50 per cent of the Museum's permanent
 6     galleries and nine international blockbuster
 7     exhibitions.  Our audience, during this time, exceeds 3
 8     million visitors.
 9  597                  We have only been able to do this
10     with community partners.  CBC Television and Radio have
11     been part of 16 of these projects.  As media sponsor,
12     CBC has been a vital ingredient to our marketing
13     effort.  CBC support has come in the form of radio
14     spots, 30-second television promotions, contests and
15     on-air features.  If we had to buy this support, the
16     bill would total in the hundreds of thousands of
17     dollars, resources that we quite simply do not have.
18  598                  At a time when other media charge a
19     significant fee, even for those projects that they
20     sponsor, CBC remains the sole bastion of full-blooded
21     community support.  It is support born of a genuine
22     interest in what happens in this community and not just
23     an opportunity to make another buck.
24  599                  Right now, CBC is supporting two
25     fascinating projects of the Museum.  The largest toy


 1     exhibit in the Museum's history and a lecture series
 2     which brings the world's leading archaeologists to the
 3     City.
 4  600                  I would like to focus on one
 5     particular example of CBC support.  For seven years,
 6     every Christmas, the Museum has presented an exhibition
 7     of teddy bears.  It is a celebration of the teddy bear
 8     and its role as a symbol of our childhood.  Each year
 9     this project has grown and become increasingly popular.
10  601                  It is a chance for the public to
11     become part of putting together an exhibition when they
12     loan their bears to be featured in the show.  It is an
13     opportunity for young children to become accustomed to
14     the Museum and to view it as a friendly and fascinating
15     place.  This year, the exhibition attracted over 60,000
16     visitors and this model is now being copied in Nova
17     Scotia and in Quebec.
18  602                  CBC has supported this project every
19     year and as a result of this consistent and enduring
20     involvement we have established an amazingly broad and
21     loyal following and we have created a Christmas
22     tradition.
23  603                  CBC has established itself as the
24     leading media voice of support for the arts, culture
25     and heritage in Northern Alberta.  There is no doubt in


 1     my mind that the CBC can be directly credited with
 2     ensuring that literally thousands of people each year
 3     are given the opportunity to recognize and to celebrate
 4     their culture.
 5  604                  Thank you.
 6     --- Applause / Applaudissements
 7  605                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much
 8     and thank you for being brief, I am sure you could have
 9     gone on and on, that sounds like a very, very happy
10     story.  Thanks very much.
11                                                        1616
12  606                  MR. McWHINNEY:  Can I now invite
13     Mr. Josh Miller to speak.
15  607                  MR. MILLER:  Thank you for the
16     opportunity to speak at this forum.  We think it is
17     commendable that the CRTC recognizes the importance of
18     enabling a cross-section of Canadians to express their
19     point of view on the CBC and provide input on its
20     future direction.
21  608                  I am an independent producer and
22     President of Mind's Eye Pictures (Alberta).  We are an
23     Alberta majority owned production company that is
24     affiliated with Mind's Eye Pictures in Saskatchewan. 
25     We produce dramatic TV series, movies of the week,


 1     miniseries and feature films and we also produce
 2     documentaries and documentary series.
 3  609                  I am a native Edmontonian who worked
 4     as a freelance screenwriter in the U.S. for 13 years
 5     before returning home to head development for Super
 6     Channel in 1990.  And I joined Mind's Eye Pictures in
 7     1995 to head up its development arm and to produce film
 8     and television projects in Alberta.
 9  610                  We think that the CBC is essential.
10     The shared experience of things Canadian over the
11     airwaves helps us to maintain a common identity, which
12     is the basis of our nationhood.  A strong public
13     broadcaster can air programs that private broadcasters
14     often won't, which makes the CBC an important venue and
15     we must support it.
16  611                  Today, the CBC is being pulled in
17     many different directions.  Other corporations in
18     similar circumstances often refer to their mission
19     statements to help refocus them on their core values
20     and for the CBC this mission statement is in the
21     Broadcast Act.
22  612                  One of the CBC's core mandates is to
23     ensure regional reflection and yet, with the changes of
24     recent years, decisions have been made that seem to
25     have diverted the CBC somewhat from this goal,


 1     specifically in regard to its commitment to regional
 2     independent production in Alberta.
 3  613                  We believe that a region is best
 4     reflected by its independent producers, granted we are
 5     somewhat biased on that point, as the ideas that ignite
 6     our passion tend to be brought forward from grassroot
 7     sources.  And moreover, independent producers endeavour
 8     to use CBC and other broadcast, but CBC broadcast
 9     commitments to lever financing from many other sources,
10     both domestic and international, which means that often
11     we can deliver high production values resulting in high
12     end programs, which is a win/win situation for the CBC
13     and for its audiences.
14  614                  Now, while it would be easy to lay
15     all the responsibility for the recent decline in
16     production here in Alberta recently at the feet of CBC
17     executives, the fact is that for three years, Alberta
18     producers have been without any provincial incentives
19     for film and TV production and this has hurt our
20     ability to finance productions here in Alberta.
21  615                  That being said, however, it was also
22     something of a double whammy to have the CBC reducing
23     some of its commitments to independent producers in
24     Alberta around the same time.  Perhaps the thinking was
25     justified internally by the need to balance shrinking


 1     budgets.  The fact is, the CBC made choices that
 2     resulted in diverting it away from one of its core
 3     missions, which as I said was regional reflection.
 4  616                  However, now that the Alberta
 5     Provincial Government has come around with a film
 6     investment program, perhaps the effect will be
 7     contagious.  Joe Novak has come to Alberta and he says
 8     that things are changing and I think we have to support
 9     Joe in helping the corporation to direct funds and
10     shelf space to Alberta.  As producers, we will provide
11     Joe with the creative ammunition he needs to go in and
12     justify the dollars.
13  617                  Now, on the regulatory front, AMPIA
14     has already made its recommendations, so there is no
15     need for me to repeat them.  But I would like to
16     reiterate that other broadcasters in Alberta have made
17     specific dollar promises as a Condition of Licence to
18     invest in the Alberta independent production sector and
19     some of them have done so over and above their
20     network's commitments.  With this as precedent, it
21     would be consistent from a regulatory standpoint to
22     require the Alberta stations to do the same.
23  618                  If such a commitment was made and
24     regularly scheduled regional slots were reserved for
25     independently produced Alberta programming, I think the


 1     CBC will have taken an enormous step toward fulfilling
 2     its regional mandate here in Alberta.
 3  619                  Thank you for your time.
 4     --- Applause / Applaudissements
 5  620                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much
 6     and the pressure is on, Mr. Novak.  They like you, they
 7     are going to kill you with kindness for a while, and
 8     then maybe they will just kill you if you don't
 9     deliver.
10     --- Laughter / Rires
11  621                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Michael?
12                                                        1620
13  622                  MR. McWHINNEY:  Can I invite Mr. Greg
14     Falkenstein, please, to speak.
16  623                  MR. FALKENSTEIN:  Thank you for the
17     opportunity.  I am here to speak as a fan and in
18     defence of the CBC, especially radio.
19  624                  CBC Radio and Television is vital to
20     all Canadians who seek intelligent and educational
21     broadcasting.  What makes it unique and special is
22     quite simple.  Private broadcasters exist for one
23     primary reason, to make profit at whatever the cost and
24     that cost is usually a dumbing down of programming to
25     appeal to the broadest possible audience.


 1  625                  CBC, on the other hand, is a public
 2     broadcaster where making profit is not the issue,
 3     instead providing quality broadcasting is the CBC's
 4     prime motivation.  So you don't get the kind of mass
 5     appeal to the lowest common denominator programming on
 6     the CBC that the private broadcaster provides.
 7  626                  A private broadcaster would never
 8     carry such programs as "Ideas", "Writers and Company",
 9     "Tapestry" and so on, because these programs appeal to
10     a limited audience, but it is an audience nonetheless,
11     an intelligent audience that has the same right to
12     exist as the dumbed down mass appeal audience that I
13     spoke of above.  If CBC doesn't carry programs for this
14     audience, who will?
15  627                  And that's just radio.  What about
16     television, specials that portray chapters in Canadian
17     history like "The Boys of St. Vincent", "The Arrow",
18     "Net Worth", "Dieppe".  When was the last time you saw
19     a private broadcaster produce any Canadian programming
20     of this quality?
21  628                  How about "The Valour and The
22     Horror"?  Rivetting television that gave the viewer the
23     Canadian perspective from World War II.  Some have a
24     problem with its slant, I am not one of them.  But
25     whatever your feelings on that, I challenge anyone to


 1     provide even one example of private broadcasting ever
 2     attempting such a similar large undertaking on Canadian
 3     history.  Private broadcasters just don't do long
 4     challenging documentaries on Canada; they would rather
 5     import a movie of the week from the U.S. that will
 6     guarantee them big ratings.
 7  629                  I would like to speak about
 8     advertising, what I consider a necessary evil.  So of
 9     course now I am only talking about CBC TV.
10  630                  You have to keep in mind a private
11     broadcaster can't offend its advertisers and owners. 
12     For example, it is simply not good business for a
13     private broadcaster's news staff to report on stories
14     that would shed an unpleasant light on any of its many
15     advertisers or to present any kind of editorial opinion
16     that would be contrary to its owners.  It is because
17     the CBC is funded largely from the taxpayers of Canada
18     that it is free to have a voice unhindered with the
19     threat of owner or advertiser retribution.
20  631                  And unfortunately the sorry Terry
21     Milewsky proves, meddling from above does happen at
22     times at the CBC.  Meddling from the most unwelcome
23     source of all, the Government of Canada.  This has to
24     be eliminated.  How can a news service function when
25     they have to fear for their very jobs if they make the


 1     government look bad?
 2  632                  The Milewsky affair shows that
 3     sometimes the government tries to muzzle the CBC and
 4     that is shameful.  Just because poor Mr. Chretien feels
 5     he is being slighted, millions of viewers and listeners
 6     have to pay the price through reduced CBC funding and
 7     interference from above.  And it is so easy to do when
 8     the Board and the President are Prime Ministerial
 9     appointments.  This has to be changed.
10  633                  My suggestion?  An all-party
11     committee appoints the Board, choosing from a list of
12     candidates, hopefully representing all the provinces
13     and territories, who have expressed their interest in a
14     Board position and all of whom must have some kind of a
15     background in public broadcasting in order to be
16     eligible to stand as candidates.  I don't think that
17     this could be just open to anyone, because then you
18     would have people like Dave Rutherford running, who
19     would just want to get in there and tear the place
20     down.
21  634                  As for programming, only the CBC
22     speaks to the whole country.  As an Edmontonian I can't
23     turn on a local private radio station and hear voices
24     from all ten provinces and two territories speaking to
25     me in interviews, in in-depth documentaries, in


 1     specialty programs, in newscasts that last longer than
 2     90 seconds.  Only CBC Radio provides these programming
 3     options, and I consider Canadians so fortunate that
 4     they are provided with such a vital educational
 5     service.
 6  635                  The government cutbacks are harming
 7     the quality and the output of the CBC.  Local radio
 8     programming is not as varied as it once was.  National
 9     radio programming relies more and more on repeat
10     programming, especially in the summertime.  And the
11     marvellous television specials I referred to earlier
12     are becoming rare.  This is a travesty.  We have
13     something so special in the CBC we should be building
14     it up; not whittling it down.
15  636                  Ottawa is now in a budget surplus
16     situation, there is no justification for not pumping
17     more money back into a CBC budget that was severely
18     slashed.
19  637                  I, for one, would be thrilled to pay
20     more income tax if that's what it takes to restore
21     necessary funding to the CBC.  Or perhaps sell
22     memberships, not fundraising drives like PBS, because
23     then the government would justify cutting off taxpayer
24     funding, just simple membership, say $10 a year,
25     devotees would be happy to pay it and it would raise


 1     millions.
 2  638                  I would like to speak about the talk
 3     of changes to television.  Some say CBC should get out
 4     of providing a local newscast.  I strongly disagree. 
 5     CBC's local newscast is hands down the finest in
 6     Edmonton.  And yes, that is an objective opinion,
 7     because I do watch all of the local newscasts, it is
 8     part of my employment.
 9  639                  I believe more people than not are
10     interested in news about their city or region.  A local
11     CBC newscast is simply a must.  To not do one would be
12     like a derogation of duty, like a slap in the face to
13     faithful viewers.
14  640                  And I would like to take this
15     opportunity to slam the farcical news rating system. 
16     Despite being hands down the finest local newscast,
17     CBC's show always comes in last in the ratings.  To
18     this, I say hurray!  As I pointed out above, popularity
19     has never been equated with quality.  The day CBC's
20     local news ratings starts to climb is probably the day
21     they have resorted to sensationalism and more sex and
22     more blood and brain-dead morning radio kinds of
23     contests.
24  641                  I'm convinced CBC Television would
25     just get out of the absurd and demeaning ratings game


 1     if it could, but I think there is some stipulation that
 2     it has to continue in order to sell advertising at some
 3     certain rate.  I don't know how that is, but I do know
 4     all broadcasting, public and private, would benefit if
 5     ratings was abolished, there has to be some other way.
 6  642                  Also, some are saying CBC should get
 7     out of broadcasting sports.  Well, I am a firm believer
 8     in history and tradition and there certainly is a
 9     tradition of sports on CBC Television that people have
10     grown up with and expect.  CBC will alienate millions
11     if it drops long-running Canadian sports traditions
12     like "Hockey Night in Canada", CFL, curling.  Just
13     don't expand the sports coverage, don't carry sports
14     from outside of Canada and let the private outlets
15     debase themselves by carrying things like snowboarding
16     and beach volleyball.
17  643                  Even the Olympics, don't bother. 
18     There's no more tradition of Olympics on CBC than there
19     is on CTV.  The CBC should only consider carrying the
20     Olympics when they are held in Canada.
21  644                  Finally, regarding --
22     --- Technical difficulties / Problèmes techniques
23  645                  MR. FALKENSTEIN:  -- logical, then
24     the CBC would have died a generation ago when that
25     current group of listeners died off.


 1  646                  Teenagers like popular hit music
 2     radio, that's just the way it is.  CBC's an acquired
 3     taste.  Teenagers will never listen to the CBC in its
 4     present form and that's okay.  It is not until one gets
 5     older and more interested in what is going on around
 6     them, that something like the CBC would ever appeal. 
 7     It sure didn't appeal to me when I was young and I am a
 8     huge fan now and my experience is certainly not unique.
 9  647                  Spend a pile of money to create a
10     third network to attempt to woo listeners that will
11     come over in time would be a huge waste of money.  Why
12     not spend it instead on improving the existing
13     services.
14  648                  In closing, remember that not
15     everyone has or even wants a computer.  Not everyone is
16     the least bit interested in the 500-channel universe. 
17     Many of us are satisfied with just a few top quality
18     broadcasting options.  The key phrase here is "top
19     quality", that the CBC is.
20  649                  Even with the massive funding cuts it
21     has had to endure with restoration of at least some of
22     this money and a change at the top away from such
23     severe Prime Ministerial control, the CBC will become
24     even better.
25  650                  I am just one of the millions of


 1     Canadians that demands the continuation of the quality
 2     informational broadcasting that only the CBC provides.
 3  651                  Thank you.
 4     --- Applause / Applaudissements
 5  652                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 6     much.  You have covered a lot of ground.
 7  653                  I probably will regret asking you
 8     this question, because it is obviously putting me on,
 9     you know, some thin ice, but I am going to ask it
10     anyway and then you can whack away at me.
11  654                  You are about the third or fourth,
12     maybe the fifth who has mentioned the Terry Milewsky
13     incident in the APEC coverage.  And there is always a
14     sense, at least I gather a sense, that somehow there is
15     a conspiracy afoot, this is what I am hearing a little
16     bit.  That, okay, we are using the CBC and Milewsky as
17     a whipping boy.
18  655                  But how does the government or in
19     fact anybody who is the subject of news coverage, how
20     do they protect themselves if they think they have been
21     wronged?  Are you unsatisfied with the process that the
22     CBC went through to investigate this and to make
23     findings on the Milewsky thing?  Do you think all of
24     that has to be restructured?  Do you, in fact, see the
25     hand of government reaching into this process?


 1  656                  MR. FALKENSTEIN:  Yes, because
 2     everybody is appointed by the government, by the Prime
 3     Minister.  Just the fact that he has disappeared, where
 4     is he?  I would like to know.
 5  657                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  So that you
 6     question, in fact, the entire enquiry process, the
 7     internal enquiry process that went on.  You feel it is
 8     tainted because of the appointment process of the Board
 9     and how far down do you feel that goes then?  Right
10     down into management, as well?
11  658                  MR. FALKENSTEIN:  Well, I would think
12     so, because it is then management that is approving the
13     hiring that goes on.
14  659                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  You see, my
15     understanding of this, and I may be wrong and then CBC
16     will get to speak in a few minutes and may have
17     something to say on this.  Again, I suppose it is a
18     digression that I shouldn't be taking, but I am
19     interested in it because on the one hand we seem to
20     have a huge amount of support overall for the CBC was
21     voiced here today with some suggestions about how they
22     could boost regional programming, et cetera, et cetera.
23  660                  And yet, at the same time there is
24     this sense that somehow there is a taint right in the
25     very tent that this internal process, and this seems to


 1     be exemplified by the Milewsky affair where, what as I
 2     understand it happened was the Prime Minister's made a
 3     complaint.  An internal enquiry then was set in motion
 4     and they made a finding.
 5  661                  And yet somehow you seem to be
 6     telling me that that's evidence of tainting and I find
 7     that interesting.  I am not quite sure how to deal with
 8     it, because here you are a CBC booster that seems to be
 9     telling me that there is a certain amount of rot or
10     corruption at the very top?
11  662                  MR. FALKENSTEIN:  No, that's why I
12     said it needs to be changed.  The system needs to be
13     changed at the top.  It can't be Prime Ministerial
14     appointment any more.  I was thinking of how we are to
15     get around this and I thought, well, an all-party
16     committee isn't the best, but what else.
17  663                  There still has to be government
18     involvement because it is funded by the government and
19     the taxpayers of Canada, so you can't take the
20     government out of it, they have to be involved.
21  664                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  But you are
22     convinced in your own mind then, that the wrong
23     decisions have been made on this Milewksy affair, if I
24     can call it that.
25  665                  MR. FALKENSTEIN:  I am convinced,


 1     yes.
 2  666                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  And that's because
 3     of political interference?
 4  667                  MR. FALKENSTEIN:  Yes, because it
 5     made the Prime Minister himself look bad and that's
 6     terrible when that can even happen in the first place
 7     because you are speaking out about the government that
 8     all of a sudden you are silenced.  That's terrible.
 9  668                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
10     much.
11  669                  MR. FALKENSTEIN:  Sure.
12                                                        1638
13  670                  MR. McWHINNEY:  Can I invite
14     Ms Brenda Mannasse, forgive me if I have mispronounced. 
15     Is Brenda here?  Okay.
16  671                  Ms Susan Wilbert?
18  672                  MS WILBERT:  Hi.  I believe I am
19     speaking for a number of people, I think of family and
20     in-laws and cousins and friends sort of across the
21     country who would never dream of speaking at a place
22     like this and I am surprised to find myself here.
23  673                  I wanted to speak largely -- I have
24     come to recognize that I think the CBC is a large part
25     of what helps me feel Canadian.  And I think it has


 1     helped me develop and maintain my identity as a
 2     Canadian.  I think it plays a really essential role in
 3     our country and I think of marriage or any relationship
 4     that if you don't communicate, the relationship won't
 5     hold together and I think it has a key role in that.
 6  674                  A lot of the comments I am going to
 7     make are primarily about radio, particularly Radio One,
 8     which is a daily part of my life, an integral part of
 9     my day.  I feel it keeps me informed in a balanced way
10     about what is going on and helps me feel connected to
11     the rest of Canada.
12  675                  In terms of how the CBC fulfils this
13     role, I think it does that by providing information and
14     points of view from across the country covering topics
15     that are pertinent to Canadians locally, nationally. 
16     It does quite a good job of that.
17  676                  I like the use of local or national
18     experts or personalities talking about the topics,
19     giving their input.  I think involving the public, they
20     do a fair job of that, like asking people to write in
21     on various things or sort of contests or with requests.
22  677                  And certainly on the radio there is a
23     lot of encouragement to give feedback.  After each
24     program they are telling you how you can give feedback
25     on what you have heard and I think that's really


 1     important and then they publicize the feedback.  And I
 2     think that's really valuable.
 3  678                  Also thinking about the broadcasters
 4     they use.  A number are from a variety of backgrounds. 
 5     They are not just people who went -- I don't know if
 6     there is broadcasting school, but -- they seem to be
 7     people also who have come from different areas.  They
 8     have done other things with their life and then have
 9     come to be broadcasters, and I think that helps bring a
10     different point of view and that's valuable.
11  679                  I also really think the
12     non-commercial nature in certainly radio is very
13     important.  It helps what they cover not be restricted
14     or influenced and we have heard a lot about how that
15     may or may not happen.  I think basically it does
16     happen.  They are allowed to cover what they feel needs
17     to be covered.
18  680                  As far as how the CBC programming
19     should be different than other programming, again I
20     think being non-commercial is important, because you
21     can cover things without strings attached.
22  681                  I think their role is not just to
23     entertain or to make a profit.  I think they have a
24     different role and that's to maintain a national
25     identity and national communication.  That is a really


 1     unique role.  And they can do that by showcasing
 2     Canadian talent, Canadian ideas, promoting discussion,
 3     covering the news, Canadian news, covering political
 4     developments and I think very broad and eclectic about
 5     the types of things they cover.
 6  682                  In relation to this I would like to
 7     compliment radio.  I think it fulfils that role very
 8     well.  I enjoy things like the political satires, the
 9     "Dead Dog Cafe" and "Great Eastern" and things.
10  683                  I also think they make creative use
11     of reruns and that is certainly related to cutbacks and
12     I am sure there is controversy either way.  But I think
13     rather than, you know, recreating the wheel all the
14     time, they have produced some really good stuff and if
15     it is aired at different times, it helps different
16     audiences hear it.  And I think that is cost effective.
17  684                  I would like to compliment the TV.  I
18     don't watch a lot, but for things like their sports
19     coverage and Olympic coverage are things we do watch. 
20     And it is nice that they are free of the commercial
21     bias to some extent.
22  685                  I am also from a sporting background
23     and I really appreciate seeing the Canadian who is
24     coming in 75th, but I understand what it has taken to
25     get there and we should support them and cheer them on.


 1  686                  I appreciate CBC "Playground".  I
 2     have young children and I really like the
 3     non-commercial aspect of it and the Canadian content in
 4     it.
 5  687                  Their political satires and comedies,
 6     I think are well done.  I would like to see, though,
 7     more Canadian shows and Canadian content on the TV.  I
 8     don't think they should be trying to compete with sort
 9     of the mainstream television and sitcoms and stuff like
10     that.  I would like to see more Canadian stuff,
11     National Film Board or some other people were speaking
12     of films I think, that's out there, they don't have to
13     produce it, it is there.  Just provide an opportunity
14     to show it.  If I have ever seen National Film Board
15     stuff, it is often great, but it is very hard to come
16     by.
17  688                  Things on Canadian history like "The
18     Valour and The Horror" and "The Arrow", all things that
19     the previous fellow mentioned on Canadian research, it
20     is nice to see it a little less commercial, but I know
21     it is expensive.
22  689                  So lastly, in terms of what is the
23     CBC's special role, I think it needs to be recognized
24     that it is a necessity.  The focus shouldn't be on
25     whether it makes a profit or on its ratings.  I think


 1     communication is an essential service in our country
 2     and if we want to keep our country together that is an
 3     essential service.
 4  690                  And I think radio, TV and now, to
 5     some extent the Internet, are the most important means
 6     of communicating with the general public and of the
 7     public communicating with each other.  And even if it
 8     doesn't have the largest audience, I think it has a
 9     very significant and very important audience that it
10     serves.  And I think as an essential service it
11     deserves to be adequately funded in order to keep
12     performing the vital role it now performs.
13  691                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
14     --- Applause / Applaudissements
15  692                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  We get feedback if
16     they are both on.
17  693                  Thank you very much.  I think you may
18     be our last speaker today, a couple have cancelled out
19     and it is certainly -- our last speaker this afternoon. 
20     We are going to have another run at it this evening.
21  694                  But if you are the last it was
22     certainly an eloquent summation and I thank you for
23     that.  You seem to have captured the spirit of almost
24     everything that has been said on a positive note here
25     today and there were some naysayers and we have them on


 1     tape, as well.  So thank you very, very much.
 2  695                  Michael, maybe you could see if we
 3     are missing anybody and if there is no other presenter
 4     we will call on the CBC to make a word or two.
 5  696                  MR. McWHINNEY:  Michelle, are we --
 6     --- Off microphone / Sans microphone
 7  697                  MR. McWHINNEY:  Susan has spoken.
 8     --- Off microphone / Sans microphone
 9  698                  MR. McWHINNEY:  And Brenda --
10     Michelle?  Sorry.  We lost Michelle.
11  699                  Ms Mannasse, she didn't show up, is
12     that correct?
13     --- Off microphone / Sans microphone
14  700                  MR. McWHINNEY:  Sorry for the delay,
15     just two seconds here.
16     --- Pause / Pause
17  701                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  I hope I didn't say
18     anything to scare her away.  I don't feel very scary,
19     but you never know.
20  702                  Mr. Novak, are you going to speak for
21     the CBC?  I don't know, you might blow it, you might
22     just want to stay with the --
23  703                  No, go ahead.  I don't want to get
24     you tense now.


 1  704                  MR. NOVAK:  If I had a choice.
 2  705                  Thank you very much, Commissioner
 3     Langford.
 4  706                  My name is Joe Novak and I am the
 5     relatively new Regional Director of CBC Television here
 6     in Alberta.  I am speaking also on behalf of my
 7     colleague, Don Orchard, the Director of Radio for CBC
 8     in Alberta.
 9  707                  And both of us would like to thank
10     you for coming to Alberta to hear what the people of
11     our province have to say about the CBC services.  We
12     also want to thank everyone who took the time, trouble
13     and effort to come out and share their thoughts, their
14     feelings and their ideas about the CBC.
15  708                  I think by the turn out this
16     afternoon and probably this evening, it is obvious that
17     many people care very deeply and strongly about their
18     CBC and the role that it does play in the life of the
19     people of Alberta.
20  709                  We appreciate their passion, their
21     support, their thoughtful comments and their
22     constructive suggestions for improvement.
23  710                  Our role as the CBC in this process
24     has been to listen.  I want to assure you that we have
25     been doing that here today.  And I also want you to


 1     know that we intend to respond individually to each of
 2     the presentations that we have heard and will hear.
 3  711                  I think many of the issues that have
 4     been so thoughtfully brought up and presented are the
 5     same ones that we at CBC Alberta wrestle with every
 6     day.  The issues of how to maintain the quality of both
 7     our radio and TV programming with vastly reduced
 8     resources.  How to provide balanced journalism that
 9     goes, indeed, beyond the headlines.  How to be and
10     maintain our independence, how to be independent from
11     special interest groups.  And how to represent fairly
12     the variety and myriad of different points of view so
13     that everyone can be heard.
14  712                  I think it is also important how we
15     reflect the cultural life of Alberta in all its rich
16     diversity.  We want to be able to ensure that something
17     as technical as our television and radio signal
18     strengths are heard properly throughout the province. 
19     We want to make sure that we better represent this
20     province on the national radio and TV networks in
21     information and entertainment programming, but also in
22     the region for the region.
23  713                  I think we want to also make sure
24     that we have the ability and the ingenuity to reach out
25     to new audiences that we have not served very well in


 1     the past and those are the young people of our country.
 2  714                  We also want to say and clearly state
 3     that the stakeholders, the shareholders of the CBC, all
 4     of you here, there is a process in place, one of the
 5     few processes in place that any broadcaster in the
 6     world has, and that is the Office of the Ombudsman,
 7     both for Radio Canada and the CBC where you can take
 8     issues and complaints and they will be fairly and
 9     impartially dealt with.
10  715                  I think it is safe to say to you that
11     there is no question budget reductions have affected
12     the CBC's ability to do all the things it would like to
13     do in the Province of Alberta.
14  716                  So it is difficult for me to make
15     guarantees, and I am new.  I figure I can dine out on
16     saying that I am new for about three to six months,
17     then the rubber will hit the road.  But I can sit here
18     and confidently say that we will continue to listen and
19     we will respond to the needs of the listeners, the
20     viewers, the independent producers, the various
21     organizations that make Alberta the province it is,
22     Edmonton the city it is and Calgary the city it is and
23     the rural communities of this province.
24  717                  You have told us that you wanted
25     local six o'clock news back in Calgary.  That has


 1     happened.  There is a completely separate Edmonton
 2     television newscast at six o'clock.  And as of
 3     September of last year there has been a separate
 4     Calgary supper hour news and once the labour/management
 5     dispute at the CBC is resolved, there will be a brand
 6     new supper hour show in Calgary for Calgarians.  We
 7     have just recently improved and changed the local
 8     supper hour here in Edmonton, the CBC Edmonton news.
 9  718                  You are telling us you want to see
10     more Alberta productions on CBC TV.  That, in fact,
11     attempts are underway.  Since I have been here there a
12     number of new projects in development for television,
13     both series, documentary, entertainment, music and
14     comedy.  In addition, we have two more movie sequels to
15     "North of 60" and there is a pilot that has been shot
16     and produced as a pilot for a possible dramatic series
17     here in Edmonton on community policing called "The
18     Beat".
19  719                  My colleague, Don Orchard, and I are
20     committed to make CBC Radio and CBC Television in
21     Alberta even more accessible, accountable, relevant and
22     valued by the people of this province and of the
23     communities within the province.  And I think forums
24     like that can only help us do that.
25  720                  This has been an extraordinary


 1     opportunity for me, personally, being new to hear the
 2     range of views.  Your feelings, your thoughts, your
 3     hopes, your aspirations for the CBC has been
 4     extraordinarily helpful to me in helping to understand
 5     the role that you believe CBC should play.
 6  721                  And I thank you.
 7     --- Applause / Applaudisssements
 8  722                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 9     much.
10  723                  That completes the program for the
11     1:00 to 5:00 section.  Those of you who have buns of
12     steel and endurance of steel are certainly invited to
13     come back at six o'clock when we reconvene and hear
14     another list of participants.
15  724                  I want to thank Michelle at the door
16     who has been the servant of two masters and has served
17     us all well.  Jim and Cindy, who are making sure that
18     the tape recordings are going so that we will have
19     clear and accurate transcripts.
20  725                  Michael, who has kept us honest and
21     on time.  And I want to thank my daughter, Catherine,
22     who gave me a pen before I left to come here with the
23     word "attitude" on it and I think she caught the spirit
24     of this city perfectly.  Edmonton is a city with
25     attitude.  And it has been a pleasure for me to be


 1     here.
 2  726                  I look forward to this evening. 
 3     Thank you very much.
 4  727                  Michael, any more housekeeping?
 5  728                  We are out of here, as they say. 
 6     Thank you.
 7     --- Recess at 1700 / Suspension à 1700
 8     --- Upon resuming at 1800 / Reprise à 1800
 9  729                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good evening,
10     ladies and gentlemen and welcome to Round 2 of the CRTC
11     comes to Edmonton.
12  730                  We had a wonderful session this
13     afternoon, went from 1:00 to 5:00, heard a lot of
14     interesting intervenors and I am hoping that this
15     evening will be just as good and just as thought
16     provoking.
17  731                  My name is Stuart Langford, as the
18     sign says behind the candy dish, and I am a
19     Commissioner with the CRTC.  And we are here today to
20     gather your views on how, if and how and how well the
21     CBC is fulfilling its mandate and what you think it
22     should be doing in the years to come.
23  732                  We are here to listen to you.  This
24     is part of a process leading up to the renewal hearing
25     for the different licences for the CBC Television and


 1     Radio across Canada.
 2  733                  The actual renewal hearing itself
 3     will take place in the Commission's hearing rooms in
 4     Hull, Quebec on May 25th.  But we know that, you know,
 5     it is a lot easier for my associate, Mr. McWhinney and
 6     I to come to you, than for all you to get onto an
 7     airplane at great expense and troop down to the
 8     Ottawa/Hull area.
 9  734                  And that's why we are here.  We are
10     here simply to bring back what you have to say and to
11     put it into the process which will go something like
12     this:  We have been, over the last two weeks, to 11
13     different cities in Canada.  From that process we, as
14     Commissioners, will gather, we will review what we have
15     heard from you.  We will prepare our questions for the
16     time when the CBC comes to us and we will be able to
17     use the input you give us to examine the CBC, to
18     question them.  And of course, there are
19     representatives from CBC here, as well today.  They
20     want to hear first hand what you have to say so that
21     they can prepare themselves.
22  735                  If you have more that you want to say
23     coming out of this process, you may listen to some of
24     the other people around here, you have until April 30th
25     to get us a written submission and that too will be


 1     made part of the record.
 2  736                  Everything you say here today is
 3     being recorded and it will be transcribed and that will
 4     be part of the public record.
 5  737                  And all of that, as I say, leads to
 6     the May 25th licence renewal hearing.
 7  738                  We would ask you, if you could, to
 8     keep your remarks to ten minutes or under.
 9  739                  You will find that I probably will
10     ask very few questions.  I am not here to cross-examine
11     you, I am here to hear what you have to say and because
12     there are so many people that want to speak and time is
13     so limited, I really will only ask questions if I want
14     some clarification.  So please don't take it personally
15     if I say, "Thank you very much" and don't have a
16     question.  It is not that I don't think what you are
17     saying is worth following up on, it is just that it is
18     clear, I understand it, I have taken my notes, we will
19     have the transcript.  And in deference to the other
20     people who are waiting their turn, we will carry on.
21  740                  So that is really all I have to say. 
22     Again, we are here to listen to you to get your views,
23     to get the views of the people of Edmonton and as far
24     in as you could drive.
25  741                  I will turn the microphone over to


 1     Michael McWhinney, who will just go through some of the
 2     nuts and bolts of this process.
 3  742                  MR. McWHINNEY:  Thank you,
 4     Commissioner Langford.
 5  743                  Just a few formalities.  I am going
 6     to name off a few of the list of where we will proceed
 7     and the presenters initially, just so that you will
 8     have a sense of where you are.  For the most part we
 9     are following the list that you probably all have.
10  744                  Just to reiterate, you will be given
11     ten minutes, give or take.  But I ask for your respect
12     for that ten minutes and we will continue along, I
13     think, happily.
14  745                  Just a reminder, when you do speak,
15     please turn on the microphone and please turn it off
16     again when you are done.
17  746                  And in case, for some reason, people
18     requiring translation services have ended up in this
19     room, we have translation services set up in the other
20     conference room and not in this room.  So if that has
21     happened, I would invite you to speak to Michelle Edge
22     outside of the door here and try and get yourself into
23     the other room.
24  747                  And also, the last point, if there
25     are those here who feel compelled to submit their


 1     thoughts or comments and don't wish to do so orally, we
 2     have comment sheets here you can make written comments
 3     or you can submit written comments of your own and we
 4     would be happy to accept them in that regard.
 5  748                  So here is the list of presentation,
 6     initially:  Mr. Grahame Blundell will speak first; Mr.
 7     Lance Mewller will speak second; Mr. David Ferrier; Mr.
 8     Brian Staples.  And I will leave it at that just for
 9     now.  I think that the basic orientation and we will
10     proceed on that basis.
11                                                        1810
12  749                  MR. McWHINNEY:  So with that I would
13     invite Mr. Grahame Blundell to speak.
15  750                  MR. BLUNDELL:  Mr. Commissioner,
16     ladies and gentlemen.  I am glad to have been asked to
17     make this presentation tonight.
18  751                  I would like to thank the members of
19     the staff of the CRTC for the information which they
20     have provided, including a list of the four topics
21     which it was suggested could be a guide to my and to
22     every presentation to this Commission made throughout
23     Canada.  This was a good start and I will try to speak
24     to each of these suggestions.
25  752                  First, however, I want to make my own


 1     position quite clear.  My remarks, while reflecting my
 2     views on the CBC as a whole, are inevitably bound to
 3     concentrate on CBC Radio One and Two and to a much
 4     lesser extent on CBC TV.
 5  753                  Actually, my wife and I do watch CBC
 6     TV, we always try to cover the ten o'clock news.  It
 7     hasn't been quite so good in the last few weeks.  This,
 8     for TV, is not a bad attempt to cover the national and
 9     international news.  Of course, it is bound to be
10     somewhat superficial.
11  754                  Every word spoken during the whole
12     hour of the news program at ten o'clock until eleven
13     o'clock would only occupy about 25 per cent of the
14     front page of, say, the Globe and Mail, the National
15     Post or the Journal.  But had it not been for the
16     reporting by the CBC on the Somalia and APEC enquiries,
17     both enquiries would have been buried where the
18     politicians would have wished them to have been buried.
19  755                  If it had not been for the CBC
20     "Townhall Meetings", would some of our politicians
21     talking about the removal of the GST ever have been
22     exposed as speaking out of both sides of their mouth at
23     once at the same time, I think not.
24  756                  Edmund Burke is reported to have
25     said, "It is necessary for the good men to remain


 1     silent for evil to triumph".  Thank goodness we have
 2     the CBC to speak for us all.
 3  757                  It must be at all times at arms'
 4     length from the government in power, regardless of the
 5     party in power.  The CBC must be allowed to continue to
 6     take the politically unpopular line whenever it needs
 7     to do so without the threat of sanctions from the
 8     government in power.
 9  758                  I take heart that every Federal
10     Government in the 21 years that I have lived in Canada
11     has always disapproved and in some cases, hated the CBC
12     when in power.  But surprise, surprise, they admired
13     and loved it when they were in opposition.  I think
14     this alone is a measure of the value of the CBC to us
15     all.
16  759                  I will not refer again specifically
17     to the CBC, neither my wife nor I watch -- we watch
18     exceedingly few TV programs except for the CBC news. 
19     So perhaps I should refer from now on in this
20     presentation to CBC Radio One and Two.
21  760                  Do not touch either programs.  They
22     do fulfil a vital role as a national broadcaster.  Who
23     else could or would have programs similar to "Cross
24     Canada Checkup", "This Morning", "As It Happens",
25     "Quirks and Quarks", "Ideas", "Tapestry", "Take Five"


 1     and all the CBC newscasts, especially the 6:00 p.m.
 2     news.  They alone cover Canada.  They alone try and
 3     mainly succeed in telling us about our fellow Canadians
 4     from coast to coast to coast.  They alone provide
 5     international news for all Canadians.
 6  761                  Commercial radio stations do not even
 7     attempt, in most cases, to do more than cover local
 8     news.
 9  762                  We are not an island in Canada.  We
10     need to know what is happening nationally in Canada and
11     internationally.  Only the CBC provides intelligent
12     newscasts from around the world.
13  763                  This brings me to another suggested
14     topic.  Yes, the CBC should provide program that is
15     different to other broadcasters.  Let others carry
16     their commercials to support no brain programs
17     appealing to the lowest common denominator.
18  764                  Let the CBC cater to those of us who
19     want to take a national and international view of the
20     world we live in.  Only CBC does this.  Only the CBC
21     tries to provide this for us all.
22  765                  However, if the CBC is different to
23     other broadcasters then it should not try to compete
24     with its competitors by serving the same pap and
25     schlock as they do.  It is not necessary to try to


 1     provide programming that is a pale imitation of their
 2     so-called popular commercial programs.  It is different
 3     and it should remain so.
 4  766                  Now for the future.
 5  767                  CBC Radio One and Two needs more
 6     funding to be able to provide for instance, more
 7     offices overseas.  It needs more funding and to
 8     continue to provide the more intelligent programs that
 9     I have already mentioned.  No one else will do this for
10     us.  I will even live through more organ music.  It was
11     organ first thing this morning on CBC Two.  If that is
12     welcomed by those who love organ music, no one else
13     would touch such programming.  It is not commercial but
14     who knows, perhaps I and others will learn from such
15     broadcasts.  Life is a continual learning process.
16  768                  I certainly won't learn anything from
17     all the other mindless programs put out on the air to
18     meet the needs of Canadians.  We need programs that
19     will provoke and stimulate, not mindless bland comfort
20     programs.
21  769                  CBC Radio, not dependent on
22     commercial advertising, can be truly independent and
23     able to provide for all sections of our country.  If
24     they are restricted in serving us all, we are a poorer
25     country and we have lost forever an essential part of


 1     our Canadian heritage.
 2  770                  As Canadians, we all come from
 3     different and diverse backgrounds.  Obviously with my
 4     accent, I wasn't born in Canada.  I come from the UK. 
 5     The BBC provides excellent radio programs but the CBC
 6     is even better, at least it is as far as radio goes. 
 7     It is a national treasure.
 8  771                  Do not let it wither away just
 9     because many politicians do not like being criticized. 
10     As I have said before, this alone, in my view, is a
11     measure of its ability to serve us all.
12  772                  Let us all realize that without
13     broadcasting that CBC provides, we are all the poorer
14     but what is even more important, if we destroy and
15     continue to destroy the CBC with the death of a
16     thousand cuts, we are in fact driving a nail into the
17     coffin of our democracy.
18  773                  If push comes to shove, reduce,
19     sacrifice, privatize or starve CBC-TV but do not starve
20     CBC Radio.
21  774                  About eight minutes, I think.
22  775                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
23     much, sir.  I think you have set the tone and done it
24     in admirable fashion.
25  776                  In fact, I thought I had a question


 1     for you right up until the end.  It was the "push comes
 2     to shove" question and you read my mind.
 3  777                  Michael, our next speaker.
 4  778                  Mr. McWHINNEY:  Mr. Lance Mewller,
 5     please.
 7  779                  MR. MEWLLER:  Thank you for the
 8     opportunity to make this presentation as part of your
 9     ongoing public consultation on how the Canadian
10     Broadcasting Corporation should serve Canadians in the
11     next millennium.  Without question, this forum is an
12     important step as CBC gathers information and input for
13     its May licence renewal application to the CRTC.
14  780                  As President of White Iron
15     Incorporated based in Calgary and one of Alberta's
16     leading television/video production and post production
17     companies, and as vice-president of the Alberta Motion
18     Pictures Industry Association, I would like to focus my
19     remarks on two key areas.
20  781                  Firstly, I will comment briefly on
21     what the CBC has done for and with independent Alberta
22     producers during the last number of years.
23  782                  Secondly, I will look at what I
24     believe the CBC should be doing in terms of its
25     involvement with independent Alberta producers.


 1  783                  In the past five years, the CBC has
 2     worked from time to time with independent Alberta
 3     producers, however, their track record is, quite
 4     frankly, very disappointing and underwhelming,
 5     especially when you consider the level of contribution
 6     of Alberta tax payers have made to the CBC.
 7  784                  At the network level, the CBC has
 8     teamed up the now independent Alberta Production
 9     Company to produce North of 60, and we applaud them for
10     that effort.
11  785                  The corporation has also worked with
12     independent producers on specials like The Boys Who
13     Loved Hockey.  As well, the CBC hires independent
14     freelance talent to work on several episodes, network
15     and regional shows like Undercurrents and Man Alive.
16  786                  The CBC national programs done in
17     conjunction with Alberta regional CBC stations are,
18     however, in essence, in-house productions.
19  787                  My colleagues and I believe there is
20     an attitude that the CBC feels Alberta producers lack
21     the talent, the vision and the expertise to produce
22     network-quality shows, and I believe that that
23     prevalent attitude throughout the CBC is that if the
24     work is not done in Toronto or Vancouver, then it just
25     isn't good enough.


 1  788                  As an example, let me refer to an
 2     episode of the program, Life and Times and its report
 3     on Calgary Police Chief, Christine Silverberg(ph).  The
 4     idea originated in Alberta.  It was submitted from
 5     Alberta but I understand the production went to a
 6     Vancouver company.
 7  789                  Generally speaking, for the past
 8     several years, it has become apparent that the key CBC
 9     decision makers are not really interested in Alberta
10     production.  They look at it as more with the
11     pedestrian attitude and sometimes pay us minor lip
12     service.
13  790                  But what needs to be done, I think,
14     is really -- I guess I will spend some time talking
15     over what I think needs to be done to improve the
16     relationship between the CBC and Alberta producers and
17     ways to increase the opportunities for our production
18     community to work with the corporation.
19  791                  First, Alberta's independent
20     production community must be viewed by the CBC decision
21     makers on the same level as producers anywhere in
22     Canada, including Toronto and Vancouver.  Our work
23     speaks for itself.
24  792                  My company, White Iron, has produced
25     two seasons, 26 half hour episodes of a program called


 1     John's God's World of Horses for Discovery Channel
 2     release here in Canada.  The show not only aired in
 3     prime time, it has been distributed to more than a
 4     dozen other countries and that is expanding as the
 5     distribution company who works the international market
 6     places.
 7  793                  We have also produced many other
 8     programs and features that have been broadcast on major
 9     networks and specialty channels, including CTV, NBC,
10     ABC, PBS, ESPN and A&E.
11  794                  But take, for example Kola(ph)
12     Productions in Edmonton, his production of the series,
13     Be A Player, has aired nationally on TSN for a number
14     of years.  I would like to say is Alberta producers are
15     very proud of the work they have done.
16  795                  I point out that Joe Novak, the new
17     Regional Director for the CBC in Alberta is a most
18     refreshing change.  Joe has shown a real and open and
19     positive attitude to the Alberta industry since coming
20     to this province last October.  He has become an ally
21     and a promoter for this region which I think is an
22     excellent start.
23  796                  We need funding from the CBC to
24     develop our program ideas.  Development funds are an
25     essential start at the beginning of almost any project,


 1     be they drama, children's programming, music, variety
 2     programming, documentary or documentary drama.
 3  797                  Next, and I am sure this is the
 4     current theme you will be hearing across the country,
 5     we need proper funding from the CBC and a level playing
 6     field when it comes to licence fees and equity
 7     investment.  And that, I mean, our proposals must
 8     receive the same kind of consideration as those from
 9     the larger markets.
10  798                  Take a look at the major productions
11     paid for by the CBC in the last five years.  Almost
12     every one is Toronto based.  A real commitment from the
13     CBC would allow Alberta producers to access a broader
14     pool of actors, talent and technical expertise.
15  799                  Finally, and I have saved this point
16     for last because it is the most important, Alberta
17     producers need air time and I am talking about prime
18     time in the CBC's national and regional broadcast
19     schedules.  Take a look at CBC's current national
20     broadcast schedule.  You know, all of the prime time
21     Canadian programming originates in house or is done in
22     Ontario using Ontario-based independent producers.
23  800                  The CBC should make and show a
24     commitment to Alberta producers.  That means a key
25     commitment at time slots in the broadcast schedule and


 1     a commitment of air time which is essential if we were
 2     to find other sources of funding for our productions.
 3  801                  In conclusion, the CBC must be
 4     willing to invest a part of its future and the future
 5     success of the corporation and the talents and
 6     abilities of independent Alberta producers.
 7  802                  CBC decision makers need to commit
 8     themselves to this as a goal.  As a national
 9     broadcaster supported by tax dollars, it must be
10     understood that to compete and succeed in the next
11     millennium, the CBC will have to rely to a much greater
12     extent on the strengths of all regions of this country.
13  803                  Thank you very much.
14  804                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
15     Mewller.  I do have a question for you.  I know you are
16     in a rush and I certainly don't want to wet your
17     appetite here but I am going to give you a
18     hypothetical.
19  805                  If we were to require the CBC, as a
20     condition of license, to somehow distribute their
21     independent production dollars in a way that was
22     compatible with say population numbers or some other
23     guide row, is there the capacity in this province to
24     produce?
25  806                  MR. MEWLLER:  I would say definitely.


 1  807                  My suggestion is, and as a former
 2     broadcaster and a producer, that I don't like what was
 3     stated earlier today.  The other private television
 4     broadcasters have committed to broadcast funds in this
 5     province which help tremendously.
 6  808                  There is the talent in this province
 7     and the last year since the decline of the AMPDC
 8     certainly a lot of talent has left this province but is
 9     one of the leading producers in the province.  I
10     recruit that talent back here on a per project basis on 
11     a regular basis.  Most of those people want to come
12     home.  They want to live here.
13  809                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  So the brain drain
14     hasn't been permanent.  They may be in Toronto now but
15     they are willing to come back?
16  810                  MR. MEWLLER:  Well, absolutely.
17  811                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
18     much.
19  812                  MR. MEWLLER:  Thank you.
20  813                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Michael.
21  814                  MR. McWHINNEY:  I would like to
22     invite Mr. David Ferrier to present, please.
24  815                  MR. FERRIER:  Hello, Mr. Langford and
25     the other people who came out tonight where I am sure


 1     we are all happy to know that you are going to take the
 2     word back to Ottawa for the hearings.  I wish I could
 3     be there myself but I am quite happy for you to tell
 4     whatever I have to say to the people that need to hear
 5     it.
 6  816                  Mr. Langford, my subject tonight is
 7     CBC accountability.  The reason I am talking about this
 8     is that a number of years ago, I discovered the CBC is
 9     not accountable to anyone.  As a Commissioner, you
10     would be well aware of this.  However, I think most
11     members of the public, including myself as of 1993,
12     were not aware of it.  CBC is not accountable to the
13     CRTC, to the Minister of Parliament to whom it reports
14     to Parliament or to the Canadian people.
15  817                  By accountable, I mean in the sense
16     that CBC programming can be anything the CBC wishes to
17     air and the CBC makes the final decision.  It is the
18     final arbiter of what is does air.  And if it does air
19     something that shouldn't have been aired, nobody can do
20     anything about it.
21  818                  Now, I have a story that goes along
22     with this, of course.  I am going to be making
23     reference to this hand out.  I hope you have a copy
24     there.
25  819                  Now, this situation that came up in


 1     1993 was a CBC program that had to do with medical
 2     research and this was a very serious subject and it
 3     tends to get people excited, me included, as a result
 4     of this program being aired which constituted a threat
 5     to human health and welfare.  I wrote this file of
 6     letters over the course of 1993 and 1994 to the CBC,
 7     the CBC Ombudsman, the CRTC, the minister responsible
 8     for the CBC, to the Prime Minister and so on, and I
 9     accomplished nothing by doing this, because, as I said,
10     the CBC is the final arbiter of what it puts on the
11     air.
12  820                  Now, because the subject of that
13     program was so serious, I am going to talk tonight
14     about a fictitious program on another subject so we
15     won't get confused about whether the CBC should or
16     shouldn't have aired that particular program but just
17     about the process that enables them to put whatever
18     they like on the air.
19  821                  So I am going to talk about a
20     fictitious CBC program to do with apple sauce.  That
21     is, suppose the CBC aired a program which said that
22     apple sauce should be taken off the market?
23  822                  Well, the first thing would happen is
24     a person might write to he CBC and say that the program
25     wasn't the sort of thing the CBC should air and they


 1     would get an answer saying that this letter had been
 2     referred to various departments.  Then they would
 3     write -- the person that was complaining would write a
 4     letter to the CBC Ombudsman only to find out that the
 5     CBC Ombudsman has no power to make any decisions that
 6     are binding on CBC management.  All a CBC Ombudsman can
 7     do is make suggestions to CBC management.
 8  823                  Then the person might write to the
 9     CRTC and they might get a letter back from the CRTC
10     saying something like this:
11                            "...the Broadcasting Act, from
12                            which the Commission derives its
13                            authority, does not give the
14                            Commission any powers of
15                            censorship.  While the Act sates
16                            that programming should be of
17                            'high standard', it also gives
18                            the responsibility for
19                   the
20                            broadcasters themselves..."
21  824                  Well, this, in fact, means that the
22     government agency that I thought was responsible for
23     monitoring the CBC, the CRTC, has no authority over CBC
24     programming.
25  825                  Then I tried the Minister -- well, we


 1     are talking about fictitious programming again.  If I
 2     had heard this program about apple sauce I would have
 3     said, "Now, let me write to the Minister."  So the
 4     minister would respond something like this.  This is on
 5     page 3 of the hand out:
 6                            "...the Minister has no
 7                            legislative authority to become
 8                            involved in the acquisition,
 9                            production, or scheduling of
10                            broadcast programs.  The CBC
11                            operates independently of
12                            government...Under the
13                            Broadcasting Act, broadcasters
14                            themselves are responsible for
15                            the content and selection of the
16                            programs they air, subject to
17                            the supervision of the CRTC and
18                            the requirements of the Act..."
19  826                  Well, the act itself, as you are well
20     aware, specifically states that CBC shall enjoy full
21     artistic and license to broadcast what it thinks in the
22     best interests of the Canadian public.
23  827                  I have tried to give you an idea of
24     what happens in the process the people might follow in
25     trying to determine whether they could get a specific


 1     program aired by the CBC to be taken off the air or
 2     changed.
 3  828                  I have a couple of proposals to make
 4     it possible to actually -- for this to actually to
 5     happen.  The two proposals that I have are that the
 6     federal should amend the Broadcasting Act to add an
 7     explicit CBC accountability to Parliament, via the
 8     Minister responsible for the CBC, for the suitability
 9     of CBC programming.
10  829                  Now, you may wonder why did I state
11     it that way.  Well, suitability has to do with
12     something that is particularly adapted to an end or
13     design or acceptable from a particular viewpoint, the
14     same as fit, such as a movie fit for the whole family.
15  830                  Now, I am not suggesting the CBC
16     should spend all its time broadcasting family movies
17     but I don't think they should broadcast programs that
18     are a threat to human health and welfare.  Or if they
19     do, there should be some way of impressing upon the CBC
20     that they shouldn't do it again.
21  831                  That was the first suggestion I had.
22  832                  The second suggestion was to amend
23     section 85 of the Financial Administration Act to
24     remove the CBC from the list of Crown corporations that
25     are beyond the jurisdiction of the act.


 1  833                  I also wrote to the Treasury Branch
 2     to see if the CBC could be influenced by their budget
 3     but the response I got, of course, was the CBC operates
 4     completely independently and is beyond the jurisdiction
 5     of the Financial Administration Act.  So I would like
 6     to see the CBC included in the Financial Administration
 7     Act.
 8  834                  Now, some people would say "Are we
 9     right or is it correct to attempt to impose
10     restrictions on the CBC via legislation?"  I would like
11     to call attention to the Canadian Criminal Code.  It
12     says over 20 sections which limit freedom of speech and
13     that is under the Canadian Charter of Rights and
14     Freedoms provisions which says:
15                            "...guarantees the rights and
16                            freedoms set out in it subject
17                            only to such reasonable limits
18                            prescribed by law as can be
19                            demonstrably justified in a free
20                            and democratic society."
21  835                  I suggest that limiting the CBC as to
22     what it can broadcast is a reasonable limit on the CBC.
23  836                  Now, telling the CBC what to
24     broadcast is another case altogether.  I am not
25     suggesting the government should ever be in a position


 1     of being able to tell the CBC to broadcast something
 2     but I would like to see, if possible, for this
 3     government to tell the CBC not to broadcast something,
 4     something which it cannot do now.
 5  837                  There are other acts which cover this
 6     kind of thing, the Food and Drugs Act restricts
 7     advertisements on things like baldness, arthritis,
 8     cancer.  You can't publish advertisement for a cure for
 9     these things in Canada.  The Tobacco Act says that you
10     cannot publish advertisement for tobacco in Canada.  I
11     think these are reasonable restrictions.
12  838                  Now, in conclusion, I would like to
13     say that it has been my experience that CBC can and
14     does broadcast programs that are not in the best
15     interests to the Canadian public.  When it does this,
16     nobody can stop it from broadcasting them.  I suppose
17     that will continue to be true.  But at least somebody
18     should have the authority to say to the CBC, "You
19     should not have broadcast that program."
20  839                  Thank you.
21  840                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
22     Ferrier.
23  841                  I must commend you.  You are
24     obviously very, very deeply committed to these issues
25     and you have managed to keep yourself within time and


 1     that shows a discipline that is to be, as I said,
 2     commended.  Good for you.  I assume with the ammunition
 3     you brought, you could have gone on at great length.
 4  842                  Obviously we can't enter into a
 5     debate but I think you can -- it is pretty clear that
 6     one could make the other side of this argument just as
 7     forcefully as you have made yours.
 8  843                  We have heard people here today, for
 9     example, who "suspect" they say, government
10     interference in CBC news coverage at all sorts of
11     levels.  I remember the old academicians used to speak
12     of "sins of omission" and "sins of commission" and
13     though you were -- I think you may be making too fine
14     line.  I would certainly argue although in saying that
15     we wouldn't want to tell the CBC what they had to put
16     on but we would tell them what they can't put on.  I
17     can see a lot of room there, personally, for abuse.  I
18     understand where you are coming from, as the younger
19     generation says, but I think you could appreciate that
20     given enough time, I think a number of us in this room
21     could make the other side of that argument as well.
22  844                  But you have made yours and we thank
23     you for it and it is on the record and we have your
24     brief and again, I commend you for staying within time
25     on a subject that is obviously of great, great concern


 1     to you.
 2  845                  Thank you very much.
 3  846                  Michael.
 4  847                  MR. McWHINNEY:  I invite Mr. Brian
 5     Staples to present.
 7  848                  MR. STAPLES:  Yes, Brian Staples.  I
 8     am born and raised in Alberta and am a retired person
 9     and have been an educator for all my life.
10  849                  I am particularly interested in
11     community-based learning of all sorts.
12  850                  I just wanted to say I find it very
13     interesting to follow Mr. Ferrier because as he was
14     speaking I had many thoughts going through my mind in
15     just the opposite direction, actually.
16  851                  I believe that we live in the most
17     interesting times that have ever been and I think they
18     are very dangerous to us.  Most of us are so involved
19     in making our livelihood that we don't have the time
20     and the energy to really learn of the complexities of
21     some of the things that are happening to us.  I think
22     the CBC is in the best position of all of our
23     institutions in Canada to create or at least to be a
24     major -- the major, I would say, player in fostering a
25     learning, a thoughtful society.


 1  852                  I find the business of political
 2     pressure very, very disturbing because the people that
 3     I know in CBC are always looking for shadows.  They are
 4     very concerned about what reaction they are going to
 5     get and so on and there is, I think, way too much.
 6  853                  The major role for me is that the CBC
 7     must have the political freedom to raise a little hell
 8     at all times and if they are not doing that, they are
 9     not doing their job.
10  854                  The financing thing is another thing. 
11     I find it very interesting.  I read Lois Hold's(ph)
12     column in the paper the other day that talked about the
13     relatively small amount of money we pay for CBC
14     compared to other countries and it occurred to me that
15     none of us think about the costs of all of the private
16     television we get.  We pay for that.  We pay for the
17     advertising.  Those people write that off against the
18     cost of doing business so our tax base is less and so
19     on.
20  855                  So I am just saying to you that we
21     need a stable sufficient amount of financing for both
22     radio and television.
23  856                  Now, just to move on and you have my
24     paper there.  It is the one with the yellow cover.
25  857                  I am also concerned that local


 1     programming has really been hurting since the cutbacks
 2     that have come from the federal government.
 3  858                  This is a very minor point but I get
 4     very concerned when I listen to CBC Radio in the
 5     morning and hear the sports broadcasters talking about
 6     Ottawa and Toronto and so on and nothing about what is
 7     happening.
 8  859                  Now, that is not a good example but
 9     it is an example of what I am talking about.  I think
10     our local programming in radio and in television has
11     really suffered in the last five or six years and that
12     is extremely unfortunate.
13  860                  I even believe that CBC television
14     should be non commercial and it should be totally
15     financed from taxes.  The way that that should happen
16     is that all of us should pay our fair share of taxes
17     for this, including the corporate side of the equation
18     which has, in my view, they are simply not doing that
19     and that has changed drastically in the last 15 or 20
20     years.
21  861                  As an educator, I remember years ago
22     being involved with CBC television in a program called
23     People Talking Back.  It was at the time of the first
24     Quebec Referendum, and through the Canadian Association
25     for Adult Education, we set up study circles all across


 1     Canada and there was a live television series that
 2     came, incidentally, out of Edmonton here, and it
 3     involved these study circles all over the country.
 4  862                  I don't think we do enough of that
 5     kind of interactive programming.  It is just a terrible
 6     loss.  That was the first time since the CBC television
 7     went off programming through all time zones at the same
 8     time back in the 1950's, I think it was, that they had
 9     done a television program that went right across Canada
10     all at the same time.  Everyone got it at the same
11     time.
12  863                  So I am saying to you that we need to
13     know more about each other.  We need to know about our
14     culture.  We need to know about life that goes on in
15     places like Owl's Eye and Hamoorooka(ph) and Come By
16     Chance, Seldom Come By, et cetera.  We just need to
17     know that and we really do not.
18  864                  I was one of the people that was
19     answering those telephones in the people talking back
20     where those study circles phoned in.  It was an
21     incredible revelation to me to hear these voices coming
22     from the east coast and the west coast and so on and
23     all with the same kind of concerns and so on.  I really
24     felt we were a people.  We need to foster that, I
25     think, a lot more than we are doing.


 1  865                  Something that we need not neglect is
 2     the development of the internet.  I see the CBC as the
 3     electronic voice of, for and by Canadians.
 4  866                  That brings me to the question of the
 5     CBC being asked to be different from, I presume, from
 6     commercial broadcasters.  I think that is very
 7     unfortunate to think of the CBC in that way.  The CBC
 8     should be our electronic voice.
 9  867                  You could find commercial interest
10     being threatened by what the CBC is doing and move into
11     some of those things that I am advocating,
12     investigative programs, public participation programs,
13     that kind of thing.  Then the CBC would no longer be
14     different from, and that is luke warm, that is no good. 
15     There should be some passion behind the CBC and it
16     should be the idea of being the electronic voice of
17     Canadians.
18  868                  One of the things that I find with
19     CBC is that -- at least I hear this and I hear it from
20     friends and colleagues and so on, is that the CBC is
21     weighed down with bureaucracy.  I don't know whether
22     that's true or not but all I am saying is if the CBC in
23     fact is this vehicle for helping us live our lives as
24     fully and thoughtfully and constructively as we
25     possibly can happily as we can, through providing us


 1     the information as we live our lives and struggle to do
 2     so in most cases, it must be an example of really good
 3     participatory democracy within the work place.  It has
 4     got to be really committed to that kind of thing and I
 5     don't think they are.
 6  869                  If it is going to do that, then it
 7     has got to make a conscious concerted effort to do that
 8     and there has got to be a lot of training and so on for
 9     the leadership people right down to the janitorial
10     staff to make the CBC a model of participatory
11     leadership and involvement in the workplace.
12  870                  Finally, I just think it is amazing
13     that the CBC has done the kinds of things it has done
14     under the tremendous cutbacks they have suffered.  I
15     find that just appalling.
16  871                  I don't think most people realize
17     that at the end of World War II in Canada, we had over
18     twice the deficit that we had in 1990 when all of these
19     cutback stuff started, over twice that deficit.  And
20     yet we paid that back within ten years and the
21     following 25 years was the most prosperous time we ever
22     had.  That is because the federal government, which is
23     the key to all of this, borrowed money for the war and
24     for repaying the debt and so on from Canadians.
25  872                  We are now locked into this whole


 1     global economy thing.  We don't seem to have money for
 2     anything, for medicine, for education and for things
 3     like the CBC.
 4  873                  Now, I think that is another
 5     question, I know, but I think it is possible to have a
 6     really vibrant CBC that helps us live our lives as
 7     fully as possible.  In fact, it is absolutely essential
 8     that they do that kind of thing and that is what I
 9     wanted to say to you.
10  874                  Thank you.
11     --- Applause / Applaudissements
12  875                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
13     much.  I hope Paul Martin has a mole somewhere in the
14     room because he perhaps could learn --
15  876                  MR. STAPLES:  I am going to send a
16     copy of my paper to Paul Martin, incidentally.
17  877                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  I would recommend
18     it.  I mean, anybody who can work a plan for paying off
19     the deficit and saving the CBC and getting it onto the
20     internet in ten minutes should be listened to.
21  878                  Thank you very much.
22  879                  MR. McWHINNEY:  I invite Mr. Allen 
23     Ronaghan to speak, please.
25  880                  MR. RONAGHAN:  Mr. Chairman, the name


 1     is Roanaghan and I will give my background first of
 2     all.
 3  881                  I well remember my childhood in
 4     Eastern Alberta, near Riley(ph).  Radio was not much
 5     more than at its beginnings.  During the day, some
 6     Edmonton stations were heard by us but at night KOA
 7     Denver and KSL in Salt Lake City came booming in with
 8     so much strength that our local stations were almost
 9     forgotten.  From KSL I heard all about doings in Salt
10     Lake City.  I learned about the Wasatch Mountains and
11     the great Salt Lake.  I heard about the trek of the
12     people across the Great Plains and about the decision
13     to stop in Utah.  I heard about Joseph Smith and
14     Brigham Young and others.  I was learning about a great
15     deal about a far away place and very little about my
16     own country.
17  882                  My story is not unique.  It could be
18     duplicated all across our country.  Far sighted men
19     like Graham Spry(ph) and Allen Plante(ph) saw what was
20     happening and began a movement to get support for
21     public radio.  Spry's saying "State or the United
22     States" is as true today as it was then.
23  883                  We have the Canadian Radio
24     Broadcasting Commission and in our home, Alfonse
25     Ouimet(ph) became a household word and our country had


 1     a voice.  Soon we had the Canadian Broadcasting
 2     Corporation, an organization with a reputation for
 3     distinctiveness in broadcasting.  CBK, the Prairie
 4     Regional Transmitter (inaudible) now came booming in.
 5  884                  We need Graham Spry's and Allan
 6     Plante's(ph) today for we have had disciples of Milton
 7     Freedman(ph) who began by ... said, "I shall try not to
 8     repeat those arguments but I must point out that there
 9     are many people in northern or isolated points today
10     who value the CBC but cannot speak here."
11  885                  What do I expect of the CBC?  I
12     expect the CBC to be good public radio.  This has a
13     number of implications I know of and most likely many
14     that I don't know of.
15  886                  I expect the CBC to have courage, the
16     courage to be different.  Let me be specific.
17  887                  The CBC did not need and does not
18     need to have a team at celebrity events like the O.J.
19     Simpson trial, events well covered by many other
20     broadcasters.
21  888                  The American people were very badly
22     served by their media at that time.  Many other things
23     were going on, things which the public deserved to know
24     about.  They did not get to know about them because the
25     media were pre-occupied with a celebrity.


 1  889                  Let me come closer to home.  CBC
 2     Radio's Cross Country Check Up did not need to spend
 3     two perfectly good hours of broadcast time a couple of
 4     weeks ago finding  out what people thought of the
 5     Monica Lewinsky affair.  Cross Country Check Up is a
 6     precious institution.  It has a devoted cross-country
 7     audience and serves a very useful purpose.  It could
 8     have made much better use of its time than it did.
 9  890                  Now, I can guess what the argument
10     was.  The President of the United States is a very
11     powerful man.  What he does is of worldwide importance. 
12     Follow this argument far enough and you conclude that
13     all sensible countries should join the USA and should
14     help elect its president and spend our time following
15     American issues.  However, we have not joined the USA
16     although we have some colonial-minded people in our
17     government and in the CBC who seem to think that we
18     should.  Meanwhile, we have issues of our own which
19     need to be debated.  Issues like whether or not we
20     should sell our water.
21  891                  The CBC needs to have the courage to
22     interpret its mandate vigorously and find these issues
23     and bring them before us.
24  892                  I expect the CBC to serve its
25     Canadian audience.  If in so doing it happens to


 1     attract an audience from beyond our borders, fine.  But
 2     it should not change its accent or water down its
 3     message just because outsiders are watching or
 4     listening.  It must not say, "The Americans can buy
 5     this program" or "The British may buy this program." 
 6     Let's just change this a bit or hire a big star for
 7     this part because these people may be paying attention. 
 8     Do that and you will end up pleasing nobody and you
 9     won't deserve to have your license renewed.
10  893                  I expect the CBC to serve its
11     Canadian audience and I use that term in the broadest
12     possible sense.  If doing this means moving the head
13     office to Montreal and uniting the two great branches
14     under one management, then I would favour that move.
15  894                  In the meantime, the CBC has made
16     some very useful beginnings with such programs as
17     "C'est la vie."  This program is introducing French
18     Canada to us in all its variety and country-wide
19     extent.  People like Avril Benoit are making a
20     wonderful contribution.  When French Canadians are
21     interviewed on This Morning, Avril, in many cases, is
22     able to help and find what that elusive English word
23     they are groping for.  We need more like her.
24  895                  I could say more but I shall close
25     now and stay within my time.


 1  896                  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
 2     --- Applause / Applaudissements
 3  897                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 4     much, sir.  I have no questions.  You were perfectly
 5     clear.  Thank you.
 6  898                  MR. McWHINNEY:  First of all, my
 7     apologies, Mr. Ronaghan, for mispronouncing your name
 8     earlier.  I hope I got it right this time.
 9  899                  Can I invite Mr. Fred Yackman to
10     present, please?
12  900                  MR. YACKMAN:  And the pronunciation
13     was very good.
14  901                  First of all, I would like to thank
15     the CRTC for coming to Edmonton and providing the
16     public an opportunity to express their opinions on our
17     national broadcaster, the CBC.
18  902                  I am here this evening wearing a
19     number of hats.  First of all, I am a citizen who is
20     deeply concerned about the future of the CBC.  I am
21     also a television writer and producer who lives and
22     works in Alberta, and I am the western counsellor of
23     the Writers Guild of Canada.  The WGC represents 1,400
24     professional writers in radio, television, film and
25     multi media who work with public and private producers


 1     and broadcasters.  The following was a paid political
 2     announcement.
 3  903                  I am going to address two issues
 4     briefly.  I am trying to be brief.  One is what I think
 5     the CBC is and should remain and then talk a bit about
 6     the issue of what role the CBC should play in the
 7     regions.
 8  904                  First of all, the CBC is our national
 9     story teller.  CBC tells stories that no one else can
10     afford to tell because the prime market of interest,
11     Canada, is too small.  This doesn't mean that these
12     stories don't have an interest to people outside of
13     Canada.  Now, this has been witnessed by the number of
14     awards that the CBC has won internationally.  But given
15     the size of the returns, no one else would voluntarily
16     take the time to create these types of stories and the
17     Canadian public would be at a loss if the CBC didn't do
18     that.
19  905                  For example, here are three or four
20     stories that I think that wouldn't have been produced
21     had it not been for the CBC.
22  906                  Keith Ross Lackey worked for eight
23     years in order to get the mini series about the Avro
24     Arrow on the air.  The CBC was a partner in that
25     production.


 1  907                  Suzette Couture wrote a very
 2     brilliant mini series called "Million Dollar Babies"
 3     about the Dionne Quintuplets.  Again, the CBC involved.
 4  908                  Another one that has won awards
 5     internationally called "Peacekeeper" written by someone
 6     originally from Edmonton, Pete White, about a group of
 7     Canadians working in the peacekeeping environment in
 8     Bosnia.
 9  909                  Again, these are stories that the CBC
10     will tell and should tell because the private
11     broadcasters just don't seem to pick up on it.
12  910                  The CBC's importance to Canadians, I
13     think, is twofold.  First of all, it is as a
14     broadcaster, of course, but also more importantly, I
15     believe, as a developer and producer of dramatic
16     programming, documentaries, children's shows and public
17     affairs programs.
18  911                  Content is everything.  Content is
19     the message, what ultimately distinguishes the CBC from
20     other broadcasters is its commitment to developing and
21     producing Canadian programming to fill its schedule. 
22     Unfortunately, CBC's role as a producer and a developer
23     has been severely reduced by a number of factors.
24  912                  There is the continuing budget cuts,
25     there is the shift in emphasis to private production


 1     due to lack of funds and pressure from the private
 2     production centre, there are cuts to the CBC's CTF
 3     envelope and there are calls for mandatory
 4     participation by the CBC in new programs without new
 5     funds to go with those new responsibilities.
 6  913                  The results have been a reduction in
 7     development in production and a schedule filled with
 8     reruns, repeats and very short seasons.
 9  914                  CBC's role as a national story teller
10     has been greatly diminished.  Its ability to invest in
11     developing new stories has been decimated.  Its
12     in-house production capacity has been cut sharply as
13     well.
14  915                  Now, granting the CBC guaranteed
15     access to the Canadian Television Fund through
16     co-ventures and independent producers only solved part
17     of the problem and it was a short-term solution because
18     the public broadcasters access to the fund is not being
19     steadily reduced.
20  916                  The Commission asked us to address a
21     number of questions and was, is the CBC serving the
22     public regionally and nationally?  Are they doing a
23     good job?
24  917                  Being a true Canadian like MacKenzie
25     King, I will equivocate and say yes and no.  Yes, they


 1     are doing a good job nationally.  They have gone ahead. 
 2     They have Canadianized the schedule and they are to be
 3     commended for that.  As a matter of fact, in the last
 4     ratings, I believe, the CBC was the only Canadian
 5     national broadcaster to show an increase in their
 6     viewership.  Mind you, it was .1 per cent, all the
 7     others showed a decrease.  I think that they are to be
 8     commended for this.
 9  918                  But I also believe if you are going
10     to be a strong national broadcaster, you have to be
11     very strong in the regions and this is where I think
12     the major problem now exists with the CBC.  The CBC's
13     capacity for developing and producing original regional
14     programming, particularly from dramatic programming,
15     has been reduced sharply over the past five years in
16     the course of successive realms of budget cuts imposed
17     by the past and current federal government.
18  919                  Regional programming is important
19     because it allows local and regional communities to see
20     themselves reflected in the programming carried by
21     their national broadcaster.  When it is picked up by
22     the national network, it gives Canadians and other
23     regions a better understanding of the variety of
24     experience across this country, something that Mr.
25     Staples was talking about.


 1  920                  Regional programming is the type of
 2     programming that plays an important role in developing
 3     new creative talent in terms of writers, performers and
 4     directors across this country.
 5  921                  Now, the way to maintain regional
 6     presence on the CBC is to continue to develop and
 7     produce regional stories for the national network so
 8     Canadians in all parts of the country can see
 9     themselves again reflected on the national network.
10  922                  As the national public broadcaster,
11     the CBC should be empowered to make programming
12     decisions based on criteria that extend beyond strictly
13     commercial imperatives yet it should retain the
14     latitude to develop or acquire projects with a broad
15     audience appeal.
16  923                  Now, in talking -- that is a general
17     comment on the regions and I think it is valid across
18     the country -- there are some inequities that have
19     developed because of the way that the cuts have been
20     implemented.
21  924                  Eastern Canada has done a tremendous
22     job and I believe that Joe Novak, the new head of CBC
23     Alberta Television, has been instrumental in part of
24     that.  There is "This Hour has 22 Minutes", there is
25     "Dooley Garden", there is the "East Coast Music


 1     Awards".
 2  925                  British Columbia, after lobbying
 3     quite hard for a number of years, now has two drama
 4     series.  One is "Nothing too Good for a Cowboy", which
 5     is a co-production and then there is Da Vinci's Inquest
 6     as well.  Two dramatic series coming out of British
 7     Columbia and it is great to see and it is nice to see
 8     Vancouver portrayed as Vancouver, not dressed up to
 9     look like Washington or wherever in the X-Files.
10  926                  In Alberta, we have suffered.  North
11     of 60 ended and that basically was it.  I think it
12     bears repeating and this is from the AMPIA(ph)
13     presentation from this afternoon when they talk about
14     taking a look at a typical week in 1999 for CBC
15     Edmonton.  There are 132.5 hours, 106 of those hours is
16     CBC network programming, basically 80 per cent of the
17     schedule.  Eight hours of regular regional programming
18     all, and I underline "all" in the news category.  There
19     is 18.5 hours of foreign programming.
20  927                  Then we come to, I think, the very
21     damning points here.  There are no hours of regular
22     regional programming in the under represented
23     categories of drama, music, variety, documentary or
24     children's, and there are no hours of regular
25     programming either produced or co produced by the


 1     independent Alberta production sector.  In fact, if you
 2     aren't a CBC Alberta viewer, you do not have the
 3     opportunity to watch any regularly scheduled
 4     Alberta-produced drama, children's, documentary, music
 5     or variety programming.
 6  928                  Now, first of all, I want to make it
 7     quite clear.  This is not because of actions of
 8     omission or commission, to use a phrase from earlier
 9     today, because of the people here at CBC and Alberta. 
10     They have done an excellent job with what they have
11     been left and they are to be commended for soldiering
12     on.
13  929                  But the thing is, when you look
14     around and you want to reflect a region, in Edmonton,
15     to use a couple of examples, we have more theatres per
16     capita than any city in this country.  We have the
17     Edmonton Fringe Festival, the largest festival of its
18     type in North America, 450,000 people attended that
19     ten-day event last year.  This means that there was an
20     incredible pool of writing and performing talent here
21     at Edmonton and Alberta that has been built up around
22     that particular festival.
23  930                  The CBC desperately needs to tap into
24     that pool of talent.  Here would be a great opportunity
25     to reflect what writes think in Alberta to see Alberta


 1     performers, I think it is a great opportunity that we
 2     have overlooked and if we are going to reflect the
 3     regions to one another, we must look to see the talent
 4     that we have in our own community.  And that is
 5     something that they should be developing.
 6  931                  Now, the bigger issue though is that
 7     the CBC needs sufficient resources to initiate, develop
 8     original programming and produce this programming so
 9     that we can get it on the air.  Though its track record
10     in producing long form dramas, series television,
11     documentaries and children's programming, the CBC has
12     demonstrated its commitment to telling stories that are
13     important to Canadians.  Canadian stories that the
14     private broadcasters aren't interested in.
15  932                  Although Canadians have been provided
16     with a far greater range of choice in programming
17     through probably dozens of new specialty channels, the
18     CBC retains a unique role as a national public
19     broadcaster.  It must continue to play a strong role in
20     dramatic programming, documentaries, public affairs,
21     children's programming, both complementing and
22     challenging the private broadcasters to keep up with
23     them.
24  933                  So a few recommendations.
25  934                  Number one, stop the cuts.  Number


 1     two, provide secure multi-year funding so the CBC can
 2     lead versus limping into the 21st century.  I wouldn't
 3     use the "M" word.
 4  935                  Number 3, restore funding from the
 5     heart outwards.  Now, the cuts in the CBC funding have
 6     consistently resulted not in a down sizing of the
 7     bureaucracy but in a decrease in CBC's development and
 8     production capability first.  They sacrificed the heart
 9     of the corporation for those cuts.  So when I say "fund
10     what it takes to fill the schedule and then work
11     outwards from there.
12  936                  For the best possible mix of
13     programming, fill the schedule with a balance of
14     private and public production.
15  937                  Number five, recognize the importance
16     of the CBC, not just as a broadcaster but as a
17     developer and producer of Canadian stories no one else
18     would or could make.
19  938                  I would like to leave you with one
20     final image and that is of the story teller with people
21     huddled around a fire listening to stories about their
22     village, their people and about villages far away and
23     people they will never, ever hope to see but they are
24     interested in their stories.
25  939                  In this digital age, we still gather


 1     around the glow of the electronic hearth, our
 2     television sets, to listen and watch story tellers.  If
 3     we allow the CBC to suffer further cuts, pretty soon
 4     there will only be one voice at that electronic hearth
 5     and it will speak with an American accent and
 6     perspective.
 7  940                  Thank you.
 8     --- Applause / Applaudissements
 9  941                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
10     much, Mr. Yackman.
11  942                  I am going to break my own rule here
12     because I want to pick your brain for just one question
13     even though I know we are tight for time.
14  943                  Is there more to Atlantic Canada's
15     somehow success, good fortune, whatever it is, Black
16     Harbour or Pit Ponies?  They just finished doing 26 of
17     those.  You can name more than I can.
18  944                  Is there more to their representation
19     on the national schedule and Alberta's non
20     representation than just luck?  Is there something
21     else?  Is it just that we have been waiting for Joe
22     Novak to come and he is going to make it all better or
23     is it you just haven't had a good voice or Joe is going
24     to have to buy a new hat.  You know, his head is
25     swelling under all of this praise, but --


 1  945                  Mr. YACKMAN:  Or fund one of my
 2     projects.
 3  946                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Is there more to it
 4     than that or is there something else?  Is there
 5     something we are missing here?  You are the producer, I
 6     am not.
 7  947                  Why has Atlantic Canada been so
 8     successful and here you are, bursting at the seams with
 9     creativity and you haven't got a voice?
10  948                  MR. YACKMAN:  I am not party to the
11     internal workings of the decision makers of the CBC but
12     let me hazard a guess.
13  949                  I believe that you need a champion
14     for your region.  Without that champion you will go
15     nowhere.
16  950                  I had the opportunity -- I digress
17     for a little bit -- I had an opportunity to travel
18     across the country two years ago working on a project
19     that I was doing.  I had the opportunity to go from
20     coast to coast.  No matter where I went, what I
21     was --just overwhelmed to see was the richness of
22     stories about Canada, that they are there.
23  951                  So the east coast doesn't have a lock
24     on good stories and good talent but they are very
25     distinctive and I think that works in their advantage. 


 1     I believe thee are just as many talented people and
 2     story tellers and stories to be told in every region of
 3     the country and what it comes down to, I believe, is
 4     having that champion to fight for those funds that are
 5     very hard to come by and I think that makes the
 6     difference.
 7  952                  Alberta, as you know, I believe is
 8     the third or the fourth largest television market in
 9     this country.  We have been under represented for a
10     long time.  It is a quirk, I don't understand why.
11  953                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
12     much.
13  954                  MR. YACKMAN:  Thank you.
14  955                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Michael.
15  956                  MR. McWHINNEY:  Can I invite Ms Penny
16     Coates to speak, please.
18  957                  MS COATES:  Thank you very much for
19     this opportunity to make the presentation.  I don't
20     actually have a presentation.  I don't work in the
21     business, I don't write, I don't produce, I don't
22     advertise, but I work in health care and it is a highly
23     stressed out field at this point and I guess that would
24     be what I would like to tell you is how important for
25     the listener CBC is.


 1  958                  Most of my friends and family listen
 2     to CBC and I would say that they listen partly to keep
 3     their sanity, something about CBC programming helps
 4     people in their daily lives and that is why I came to
 5     promote good support for CBC.
 6  959                  One of the things I would like to
 7     mention -- it has been brought up by all these people
 8     that know much more than I do about this -- I know
 9     Alberta because I live here.  I think it is really true
10     that maybe the rest of Canada doesn't get to know
11     Alberta as well as I get to know the rest of Canada on
12     CBC.
13  960                  So I would reiterate what you have
14     just talked to him about, that funding in Alberta
15     should be improved because there are good stories here
16     and I know there is good talent here for doing that. 
17     So I would certainly like to support that notion if it
18     can be done because cuts have been severe here and the
19     radio station has a lot of trouble covering much at
20     all.
21  961                  I think that is really about all I
22     had to say.  I just wanted to speak for the listeners
23     so that is it.  Mine was short.
24  962                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
25     much.


 1  963                  MS COATES:  Sure.
 2  964                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  We came to listen
 3     to the listeners so you filled a hole for us.
 4  965                  If I can make an observation about
 5     this place, having lived here only for a day and a half
 6     now, and almost all the time in this hotel, I did
 7     manage to get out and go for a walk this morning.  You
 8     have the most beautiful river I have ever seen in my
 9     life.
10  966                  And Mr. Novak, there must be stories
11     about that river.  Go get them.
12  967                  MR. NOVAK:  You bet.
13  968                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  It is the most
14     dramatic river and riverbank I think I have ever seen
15     anywhere.  You are blessed people.  So there have got
16     to be stories there.
17  969                  Michael, stop me.  Get a real speaker
18     on.
19  970                  MR. McWHINNEY:  Mr. Tommy Banks.
21  971                  MR. BANKS:  We have many dramatic
22     things, Mr. Langford.  The river is only the most
23     obvious of them.
24  972                  I should tell you that I am a
25     musician.  I am an independent television producer and


 1     record producer and I make my living in the
 2     entertainment business.  I should also tell you that
 3     despite the colour of my hair, I am not here to be
 4     curmudgeonly and bemoan the fact that the CBC isn't the
 5     way it was in the good old days.
 6  973                  I am also not objective with respect
 7     to the CBC because I owe the CBC, as does any performer
 8     in this country my age, more than I could ever write
 9     down or more than I could ever say because there was a
10     time when it was the only game in town and it is
11     directly and solely responsible for the fact that there
12     was, when the other players came into the market, any
13     kind of talent pool of writers, creative people in
14     general in this country.
15  974                  That having been said, I would like
16     to associate myself strongly with the remarks of Mr.
17     Yackman who -- I don't know what he was going to say --
18     I would have mugged outside the room.  I read his
19     speech because he is exactly right on all accounts.
20  975                  I don't think that you, the
21     Commission, needs to hear all of the good things about
22     the CBC because any thinking person knows that the CBC
23     has done, to some extent now still does, and certainly
24     could in the future, do things which the other guys, by
25     which I mean commercial broadcasters, have not done,


 1     cannot do and will not ever do.  And it is for those
 2     reasons and all of the things that fall within the
 3     envelope that we need to have the CBC.
 4  976                  However, I recognize that it is
 5     inappropriate to lobby you to increase funding for the
 6     CBC so I have the temerity, since I have escaped the
 7     necessity of saying all the things that Mr. Yackman
 8     said, to suggest to you something that the Commission
 9     no doubt has already considered but can actually do
10     about the present difficulties in which the CBC finds
11     itself.  That is in respect of its promise of
12     performance and/or conditions of its license.
13  977                  You have heard references in the past
14     to the pendulum having swung so far the other way with
15     respect to funding that it has, for all intents and
16     purposes, in many respects, disembowelled the CBC and
17     whether or not that is on a proportionately fair
18     regional basis is almost beside the point.  I think
19     that most of the questions as to what the CBC ought to
20     do in the future can be left to the management of the
21     CBC and the creative people at the CBC, they have done
22     on balance and estimable job of this in the past, over
23     the past however many years it is and I have no doubt
24     could, in the future, had they not been driven into,
25     and I believe this is the case, a sort of trench


 1     mentality on the basis of the cuts.  When you are
 2     standing there looking at wave number seven of the cuts
 3     coming, it is a fearful thing.
 4  978                  CBC management at the higher levels
 5     have, I think, been driven wrongly and for all the
 6     wrong reasons into, as I said, a sort of defensive
 7     position which has made them in some respects, at least
 8     subject to the tyranny of numbers.  Mr. Yackman
 9     referred to this and so have several other of my
10     predecessors tonight, about pandering in order to
11     obtain ratings and to do programs which sometimes other
12     broadcasters can do well rather than doing things which
13     for altruistic and aesthetic reasons ought to be done
14     as they have been in the past by the CBC.
15  979                  I suggest that the Commission might
16     make a contribution in this respect by reminding the
17     CBC that at least part of its mandate is to function in
18     creative ways which require that it not pay attention
19     to the tyranny of numbers and to the tyranny of ratings
20     and to the tyranny of the lowest common denominator.
21  980                  And in that respect, the two things
22     which it needs most, and which I suggest that you might
23     consider putting in its condition of license or its
24     promise of performance is the question of regional
25     development, the regional development of every level of


 1     creativity, regional development of writers, regional
 2     development of directors, regional development of
 3     actors, of musicians, of designers, et cetera, et
 4     cetera, a thing which use to distinguish the CBC from
 5     all of its counterparts, not only here but elsewhere in
 6     the world.
 7  981                  Secondly and equally important, and
 8     it's part and one of the same thing, to require that
 9     air time be given, first in the regions and secondly on
10     the national networks to the exposure of the results of
11     that development.  Most thinking people, I think, would
12     recognize that talent development is whether it is ever
13     written down anywhere, not part of the mandate of the
14     CBC and it should be.
15  982                  It has, by virtue of some necessity,
16     advocated that aspect of its responsibility for all
17     intents and purposes in the past few years.
18  983                  I would hope that the Commission
19     might require it to return to its soul and its roots in
20     those regards that by ensuring that we do not have to
21     look so hard to find programs of the entertainment
22     kind, by which I mean to include drama, music, dance,
23     all of those other things that are important. 
24     Contributions in those respects to the network from
25     what is euphemistically referred to by the CBC


 1     management as the regions which is any place outside of
 2     Toronto.
 3  984                  It is hard to find a program that is
 4     the result of talent development that comes from
 5     Vancouver or Edmonton or Toronto or Regina or Windsor
 6     or even Montreal on the English network.  As you have
 7     pointed out, there seems to be a little bump these days
 8     from the Maritimes but that is -- maybe it is just
 9     their turn and who knows what the answer to your
10     question is.
11  985                  Advocacy of one kind or another and
12     the recognition of a great creativity and I suggest
13     development because there has, for whatever reason,
14     been in the Maritime provinces, a measure of
15     development of regional talent by the CBC in the
16     Maritimes which has been absent elsewhere.
17  986                  It is too easy to attribute all of
18     this simply to budget cuts but ancillary to those
19     budget cuts and sort of concomitant with them is this
20     panic on the part of management that we have to show
21     numbers and we have to stop spending money.
22  987                  I would hope that the Commission
23     might, in its wisdom, make a requirement of the renewal
24     of the CBC's license.  I am speaking mostly of
25     television here.  That it return to those two


 1     fundamentally important things that it used to do.  Not
 2     that it should do them in the way that it used to do
 3     them.  In fact, it must not do them in the way that it
 4     used to them.  But the creative people of the CBC,
 5     given the release from the constraints of the pendulum
 6     having swung to far the other way, or by requirements
 7     that they do otherwise, have the means of making sure
 8     that regional development happens and if you require
 9     it, it will happen and that regionally developed
10     artists have a chance to show their stuff regionally
11     and on the national network.  I hope that the
12     Commission will do that.
13  988                  Thank you.
14     --- Applause / Applaudissements
15  989                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
16     much.  Mr. Banks, could you hit that button there? 
17     Thanks.
18  990                  Again, it is getting later in the day
19     and one says things probably one shouldn't but you said
20     something that touches on a -- there is one word since
21     I have come to the CRTC -- well, it has been grating on
22     me even before -- the regions.
23  991                  There is something about calling
24     everybody outside of Toronto and Montreal the regions
25     that bothers me.  I mean, it is almost as though --


 1  992                  MR. BANKS:  It bothers you!
 2     --- Laughter / Rires
 3  993                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  But it puts you
 4     sort of -- they have tied to cinder blocks to your legs
 5     before you are even in the race and I think if we could
 6     do nothing else, it would be interesting if we could
 7     get that word out of the dictionary or at least
 8     relegate it to what it should be used for.
 9  994                  I have taken down your points and
10     they are on the record and I thank you very, very much
11     for your presentation, sir.
12  995                  Michael.
13  996                  MR. McWHINNEY:  Can I invite
14     Mr.Oldham to speak?
15  997                  MR. OLDHAM:  Well, others have
16     already said many of the things I originally planned to
17     say and my wife tends to think that I tend to be long
18     winded.  So this evening I plan to surprise her.
19  998                  I am amazed at the quality of radio
20     and television programs that the CBC produces in spite
21     of massive cuts in funding under the Mulroney and
22     Chretien regimes.  I would like to tell you how much I
23     value specific programs but there are so many so I will
24     make a few general comments.
25  999                  There are a lot of cliches and catch


 1     phrases being bandied about like as we move into the
 2     next century or next millennium, we can no longer
 3     afford public broadcasting.  They say this as though we
 4     will move into a new world on January the first.
 5  1000                 They overlook or they choose to not
 6     mention that a year from now, with the exception of a
 7     few births and deaths, it will be the same people
 8     listening to the same radios and watching the same
 9     television sets.  Like many, there will be people who
10     might want to be entertained by Hollywood sitcoms that
11     have someone with his finger on the keyboard of the
12     laugh track to let them know when to laugh or to be
13     titillated by the likes of Jerry Springer or Beavis and
14     Butthead.  But there are still a lot of us who want
15     something more stimulating and doesn't insult our
16     intelligence.
17  1001                 They also overlook the fact that the
18     century in the millennium doesn't actually end until
19     next year but that is good for another program.
20  1002                 We were told that global is a mixed
21     national broadcasting obsolete.  In reality, globalism
22     is a move towards economics serfdom and away from our
23     freedom to run our own affairs.  If we are to survive
24     as a democracy, we need more national broadcasting, not
25     less.


 1  1003                 We are also told that we don't need
 2     public broadcasting system while we have lots of free
 3     private broadcasters.  There is no free lunch.  In
 4     Economics 101, we were told that the cost of
 5     advertising ends up in the cost of goods and services
 6     and the consumer ultimately pays the price.  In the
 7     broadcast industry, a large part of the income comes
 8     from advertising is spent on soliciting more
 9     advertising, not on news gathering and investigative
10     reports.
11  1004                 The ratings are often used as a
12     reason for eliminating public broadcasting.  The last
13     time I scanned the radio dial, I counted ten AM
14     stations and 15 FM stations.  This means that any one
15     of the stations is lucky to get more than four per cent
16     of the listeners.
17  1005                 We are not the only country that
18     invests in public broadcasting.  Listen to CBC between
19     1:00 a.m. and 6:00 a.m. -- I guess it's midnight to
20     6:00 a.m.  They relay news and commentaries from
21     Australia, South Africa, the U.K., France, Germany,
22     Belgium, Sweden and many smaller European countries,
23     many of which spend considerably more than we do per
24     capita.
25  1006                 Are we to develop a carbon copy of


 1     the situation south of the border?  PBS suffered
 2     cutbacks in federal funding.  Do they take up the
 3     slack?  They resorted to commercial sponsors and
 4     seemingly endless pledge campaigns.  Spokane gets a
 5     large portion of its contributions from north of the
 6     border but there are very few programs pertinent to
 7     Canada.
 8  1007                 For example, after the Gulf War, they
 9     were in a program called "The Hell Fire Fighters of
10     Kuwait".  There were lengthy interviews and action
11     shots of the three American companies, only a brief
12     glimpse of some Canadian equipment.  There was no
13     mention of the fact that the Canadian company put out
14     almost as many fires as the other three combined.
15  1008                 Without the CBC, the remaining
16     choices of so-called Canadian networks in this area
17     would be CTV and ITV.  Very few correspondents outside
18     of Canada -- where do they get the most of the world
19     news?  From ABC, owned by the Disney Corporation, whose
20     agenda is entertainment, not enlightenment, NBC and
21     CBS, owned by General Electric and Westinghouse,
22     respectively, huge financial corporations with
23     substantial interests in nuclear energy and the
24     so-called defence industry.  One time it used to be the
25     War Department and now it's the Defence Department.


 1  1009                 After Eishenhower, who was a
 2     Republican, not a radical left winger, warned us
 3     against the military industrial complex.  These
 4     corporations didn't shrink.  They expanded and became
 5     even more powerful and influential.  Then there is CNN,
 6     allied with Time Life, whose sympathies are distinctly
 7     right of centre.
 8  1010                 As his country approached the
 9     beginning of this century, Jose Dela
10     Cruzportfiliodiaz(ph) said, "Poor Mexico, so far from
11     God, so close to the United States."  I shudder to
12     think of a future without the CBC.
13     --- Applause / Applaudissements
14  1011                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much
15     for your remarks and for taking us on that tour.  I
16     must say you disappointed me at the very, very
17     beginning.  I was a bit heartbroken when you said there
18     would be no change in the millennium.
19  1012                 I am one of these people who is
20     hoping the Royal Bank will lose my mortgage when the
21     Y2K bug hits.
22     --- Laughter / Rires
23  1013                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Perhaps you are
24     right.  I will just be paying as usual.  I have visions
25     of Revenue Canada losing my file or something but I


 1     suppose that won't happen.
 2  1014                 Michael.
 3  1015                 MR. McWHINNEY:  We seem to be at a
 4     stage where there are a number of people on the list
 5     that have not arrived.  If you will indulge me, I am
 6     just going to read off the names of people who are on
 7     the list who we think have not arrived, just to make
 8     sure that they are not here, in which case we may wrap
 9     up earlier but we may also want to give them the
10     opportunity to arrive.
11  1016                 Mr. Jackson Davies -- just let out a
12     yell if your name is called, if you wouldn't mind -- Ms
13     Marlyn Wahl, Mr. Timothy Vaughan-Bettaker, Mr. Vic
14     Yanda, Mr. Drew Martin, Mr. Don Metz, Ms Valerie Warke,
15     Ms Nicolette Saina.
16  1017                 There is one person who hasn't yet to
17     speak, I believe, who is on the list who is here, Mr.
18     Paul Burke.
19  1018                 Can I invite you to speak?
20  1019                 MR. PAUL BURKE:  I don't actually 
21     have anything prepared today either partly because I
22     just got bi-focal glasses today for the first time in
23     my life and I can't read anything anyway.  I don't know
24     how to do this.
25  1020                 I want to say that I am here as sort


 1     of an average Joe Nobody in Canada who is surprised at
 2     myself that I would be here today presenting to you
 3     people, advocating for the CBC and the continuation of
 4     what it does for Canadians.  I am one of those people
 5     who grew up as a child in small-town Alberta, hating
 6     the CBC because it was full of all that cultural crap
 7     and wishing for more American television because I
 8     liked sitcoms.  But as I get old enough now to need
 9     bifocals, it is interesting to me how much either CBC
10     has changed or how much I have changed to grow to
11     appreciate the damn thing.
12  1021                 I grew up, certainly a redneck, a
13     redneck who knew nothing about Canada and who knew
14     nothing about culture and who was ignorant to how
15     little he knew, ignorant about my ignorance, and I am
16     proud to say that I am now a reformed redneck as
17     opposed to a redneck reformer which there are many of
18     in this country as well.
19  1022                 I want to say things like it was
20     really quite a shock to me and an honour to come in and
21     sit down and see Tommy Banks sitting here.  Tommy Banks
22     is a bit of a star in the Edmonton area and I wouldn't
23     even know who Tommy Banks was if it wasn't for the CBC. 
24     I saw him back in the old days when he ran a talk show
25     when he was always playing piano in Toronto in these


 1     big guilded halls for the Juno Awards and things like
 2     that.  Then I learned he was from Alberta and that was
 3     exciting.  Then I moved to Edmonton and realized he was
 4     living in Edmonton and here I am sitting at the same
 5     panel and the fact that I know who he is a testament to
 6     the CBC in and of itself.
 7  1023                 What I like about the CBC
 8     increasingly that CBC doesn't appear to be selling
 9     something, particularly, of course, on radio, I feel
10     like I can -- when I want some light potato chips and
11     escapism entertainment, couch potato entertainment, I
12     am free to turn to American television, but when I want
13     good quality information and entertainment,
14     particularly that is relevant to me as a Canadian, I
15     turn on CBC because I feel that CBC is not trying to
16     sell something.  I don't have to worry when I turn on
17     the CBC news, whether it be on television or radio,
18     that the government is manipulating what is said or
19     what is covered or not covered on the news, and I like
20     that very much.  I don't trust that in any other
21     station that I watch, and particularly, the American
22     stations.
23  1024                 The other thing about me is that I am
24     not a particularly wealthy person and consequently I
25     don't get an opportunity to travel much.  I've been to


 1     Toronto twice in my life and to Vancouver half a dozen
 2     times and that is it from my experience in travel
 3     across Canada.  But I feel, especially in the last six
 4     or eight years, that I know a lot more about Canada
 5     than I -- well, I know that I know more about Canada
 6     than I would ever know.
 7  1025                 I work in the public sector -- not
 8     for CBC, by the way -- the public sector where it is
 9     important for me to be conversant about Canada a little
10     bit.  It is important for me to understand, in the type
11     of work that I do, I am a therapist and I need to work
12     with clients, many of whom are from the eastern part of
13     Canada, some of whom are from British Columbia, and
14     many of whom are from Quebec and especially around the
15     Montreal area.
16  1026                 I knew nothing about Quebec.  I
17     didn't care about Quebec.  I was one of these people
18     who felt that the sooner we could get the bastards out
19     of Canada the better until I started to see some CBC
20     television programming, even in the form of
21     entertainment of drama and so forth, that helped me to
22     understand something about the social culture of
23     Quebecers and the plight of Quebecers.  Now I find
24     myself hoping the hell they don't leave Canada because
25     I kind of like them and I kind of realize that they are


 1     as Canadian as I am even though they speak a different
 2     language and that is not something that I would ever
 3     have developed if it weren't for the existence of CBC.
 4  1027                 If my television set was tuned to
 5     American channels and to CTV, I can assure you I
 6     wouldn't have that same sensation about Quebec because
 7     Quebec doesn't sell Quebec issues, political issues. 
 8     Black Harbour, I don't think -- I think CBC has done a
 9     good job making it marketable and making the numbers
10     game, as Tommy calls it, work, but I don't think any
11     other station would give a damn about Black Harbour.  I
12     don't think they would care about North of 60 which I
13     think has done more for the average Joe like me whose
14     understanding of Aboriginal issues and just Aboriginal
15     people.  Not even Aboriginal issues, just knowing what
16     it is like for people who live north of 60, of course,
17     knowing that these people don't live north of 60, they
18     live in Brag Creek(ph) but I think the thing is
19     relatively true to its culture, Pit Pony, Avonlea,
20     Beachcombers, way back.  Beachcombers was kind of the
21     aura or the era at which I began to warm up and since
22     then it has just got better and better.
23  1028                 My mother is another one who
24     absolutely, talk about redneck Albertans, she hates the
25     CBC with a passion.  However, her favourite shows are


 1     North of 60, Black Harbour, Pit Pony, Avonlea, On The
 2     Road Again -- she would marry Wayne Ronstad in a minute
 3     if she got the opportunity -- Man Alive, Witness,
 4     Adrian Clarkson Presents.  She likes every second
 5     episode and the in between episodes, she wants to write
 6     to CBC and tell them to shut down because they have
 7     something on ballet or, you know, something like that. 
 8     So every time she talks to me about hating the CBC, she
 9     will say, "Except for the following..." and then lists
10     off all the shows and so forth.
11  1029                 It means a lot to me to have quality
12     programming about Canada.  I get amazed sometimes at
13     how American I feel and the more I learn about this
14     country through CBC television, mostly their dramatic
15     programming, not their documentaries even, the more I
16     feel really proud to be a Canadian in that I understand
17     there is a distinct difference between me and somebody
18     who lives in Los Angeles or New York.  That is
19     something I didn't understand 20 years ago and I hope
20     that by the time I am 80 I will understand it a lot
21     more than I do now.
22  1030                 Without CBC I would be watching
23     American sitcoms, I would be watching American
24     documentaries and I would be watching American talk
25     shows and I would not have that sense of being Canadian


 1     that I have now thanks in large part to the CBC.
 2  1031                 CBC Radio, I heard someone over here
 3     a few minutes ago say that there is just something
 4     about it that makes us as Canadians feel good.  We can
 5     tune into it and it is in part again that CBC is not
 6     selling anything on their radio station.  They are just
 7     Canadians talking to other Canadians frequently about
 8     Canada and helping us to develop, although none of us
 9     will admit it, a Canadian culture.  If we lose the CBC,
10     unless we replace the CBC with something as good or
11     better that is Canadian and that will feature Canadian
12     product and Canadian talent and will develop Canadian
13     talent and product, then we are doomed to lose whatever
14     cultural identity that we have.
15  1032                 Thank you.
16     --- Applause / Applaudissements
17  1033                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
18     much, Mr. Burke, a fellow bi-focal wearer.  Watch the
19     fingers when you are dicing vegetables for the first
20     week or two.  It takes some getting used to.
21  1034                 Have we got anyone else, Michael?
22  1035                 Perhaps we should take a ten-minute
23     break just in case people -- sometimes people look at
24     the list and sort of think, "Oh boy, that looks like
25     about 8:00."  So let's take a ten-minute break.  We


 1     will come back at about quarter to, twelve to,
 2     something like that and we will see what we have got
 3     then.
 4  1036                 Thanks very much.
 5     --- Recess at 1940 / Suspension à 1940
 6     --- Upon resuming at 2005 / Reprise à 2005
 7  1037                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Ladies and
 8     gentlemen, children of all ages, as we say, we are
 9     ready to reconvene and I think we have lost a bit of
10     our audience, I am afraid to say, but I pushed the
11     break time a little farther because my worry is that
12     some of the people at the bottom of the list may be
13     kind of playing the time game and thinking, "Well, I
14     won't get on until around 8:00 or 8:30."
15  1038                 Now, I know we have two more
16     participants who have shown up.  We may get a few more. 
17     Let's hope everyone comes but we will get through the
18     people that are here.  We will then ask Mr. Novak, on
19     behalf of the CBC to make some remarks.  If some other
20     people show up, we will certainly make time for them. 
21     There isn't as big an audience for those of you who are
22     talking now as there was perhaps half an hour ago, but
23     remember, we do have the recording machine going.  Your
24     presentation will be part of the official record.  So
25     though there perhaps isn't as full a room as there was


 1     a little while ago, your message will get into the
 2     process and be part of this very important CBC renewal
 3     of license process that we are involved in here.
 4  1039                 I should say one thing.  There was
 5     some doubt expressed in the other hearing room as to
 6     whether or not we would renew the CBC's license.  That
 7     is not the issue.  The CBC's licenses will be renewed.
 8  1040                 The issue is whether there will be
 9     conditions on those licenses, whether we will have some
10     advice to the CBC based on the sort of hearings that we
11     have had.  But anyone worrying about turning on the
12     radio or the television and finding dead air should
13     rest assure that that isn't one of the options that the
14     CRTC is toying with at the moment or in the foreseeable
15     future.
16  1041                 The CBC is an institution in Canada
17     created by statute, not by the CRTC.  If it is going to
18     be wound up, it will be wound up by Parliament, not by
19     the CRTC.
20  1042                 But the CRTC's job is to look at the
21     entire broadcasting system, private and public.  When
22     we look at that and when we hear from the people and
23     when we meet with the CBC representatives and we hear
24     from them and we examine the budget constraints they
25     are under, et cetera, et cetera.  At that point we may


 1     have some conditions of license that we would put on,
 2     for example, with regard to the amount of Canadian
 3     content.  We may have some recommendations as to
 4     directions the CBC could go but the notion that there
 5     would be dead air after the May 25th hearings is a
 6     little more than fanciful so everyone can rest easy.
 7  1043                 Michael, would you like to call the
 8     next presenter.
 9  1044                 MR. McWHINNEY:  I would like to
10     invite Mr. Vaughan-Bettaker to present.
12  1045                 MR. VAUGHAN-BETTAKER:  Good evening
13     and it is my fear, actually, that Parliament will do
14     the wrapping up and they are already starting to do it
15     as far as I can tell.  They have trimmed the CBC's
16     budget and I notice the CBC has repeat shows throughout
17     the day which I find quite discouraging because I am an
18     avid listener and I like to work to the CBC and it is
19     annoying that the repeat shows come up.
20  1046                 My name is Timothy Vaughan-Bettaker
21     and I am a transplanted folkie from the big smoke in
22     Ontario.
23  1047                 Before addressing the guideline
24     questions outlined by the CRTC Public Notice, I would
25     just like to tell you how the CBC helped me and at the


 1     same time fulfilled its mandate.
 2  1048                 Number one, how the CBC helped me to
 3     be an ugly guy.  In 1993, I think it was, the Maple
 4     Leafs were winning.  They were on a winning streak and
 5     in the playoffs they faced a certain super star,
 6     formerly of the Edmonton Oilers here, who I won't name,
 7     who was playing for the Los Angeles Kings.  Two friends
 8     and I wrote a rally song for the Leafs and we started
 9     busking in front of the Gardens and basically
10     everywhere.  The chorus went something like this -- I
11     hope this comes out:
12     It's hockey night in Canada, the game will soon begin.
13     The Kings are gonna lose and the Leafs are gonna win.
14  1049                 So we played that song over and over
15     and over, ad nauseam --
16     --- Laughter / Rires
17  1050                 MR. VAUGHAN-BETTAKER:  -- until
18     basically the CBC agreed to record it for us.  They
19     asked us, CBC Radio One in Toronto.  We were paid as
20     writers, which I was very -- it was the first time I
21     ever got paid as a songwriter and I was very grateful. 
22     From there, our group, The Three Ugly Guys, went on to
23     get a video on MuchMusic and the rotation just after
24     Stompin' Tom's hockey song, which was quite an honour. 
25     We appeared on the CHUM FM Radio Station, Q-107 and we


 1     also got to show our faces on the Dini Petty show
 2     nationally which was great.
 3  1051                 So the CBC started a buzz and helped
 4     push the love of our game and a song sung by just
 5     ordinary citizens forward.  We Three Ugly Guys are
 6     grateful.  I speak on behalf of my comrades.
 7  1052                 Just as an aside, I used to get
 8     stopped on the street and people would say, "Hey,
 9     you're an ugly guy."
10     --- Laughter / Rires
11  1053                 MR. VAUGHAN-BETTAKER:  Number two,
12     how the CBC made me lose my homesick blues.
13  1054                 On a cross-continent tour of North
14     America, my girlfriend and I landed in Inuvik in the
15     Northwest Territories.  If you have been there, you
16     know it is the end of the road.  Basically it is very
17     remote.  We were feeling a bit lost and homesick.  One
18     day we were tuned into the Radio One because as
19     basically our good friend all the way across and if
20     anyone here doesn't know, you can get CBC anywhere in
21     Canada.  It is on the dial, somewhere, on AM or FM, no
22     matter where you are, which is fantastic.
23  1055                 So we are sitting in Inuvik, really,
24     living in the back of my pick-up truck in a campsite
25     and got the radio on and I hear a Toronto friend's


 1     voice doing a comedy routine on the radio.  They were
 2     Trouser Park, they were called.  And all of a sudden I
 3     didn't feel so alone any more and, of course, I
 4     laughed, I just rolled over because I'm miles and miles
 5     away and there's my friend in Toronto speaking to me.
 6  1056                 Also, if you've been up north, you
 7     know that the CBC provides a vital link for northern
 8     residents from the different towns, especially those
 9     ones that you can't get to by roadway.  They literally
10     communicate messages from one home to another.  "Joe, I
11     lost my spatula," or whatever.  I don't know, up north
12     without CBC they would truly be lost.  They wouldn't
13     have a way to keep their communities in contact with
14     each other.
15  1057                 One great announcement one time when
16     I was there was "The caribou are running."  So
17     everybody knew so you could jump on your little plane
18     and go and see them, so thanks again to the CBC for
19     that.
20  1058                 Number three is how the CBC stopped
21     me from losing my mind.  Not long ago, my wife and I
22     bought a century home in a small town north of the big
23     smoke and proceeded to renovate it.  We were stuck at
24     home for long periods and basically days on end.  While
25     the other radio stations played insipid commercials too


 1     frequently and obviously their musical tastes catered
 2     to the corporate industry and you just hear the same
 3     blah, blah over and over and over and over and over and
 4     over again.
 5  1059                 We could tune in to the CBC and hear
 6     an eclectic variety all day.  Different kinds of music,
 7     different voices, different nationalities and
 8     basically, all the other commercial-free radio was out
 9     of our reach so we had two choices and there really was
10     no choice at all.
11  1060                 CBC provided interesting programming
12     wherein I could visit with other Canadians without
13     going to PEI or Kamloops.  My vision of our country's
14     citizens became fuller and as did my identity because I
15     knew who I was.  I am the son of an immigrant and it
16     meant a lot to me to know who we are and what we are. 
17     So again, CBC, thank you.
18  1061                 Since the cutbacks, I have had to
19     listen to repeat broadcasts, which I've already said,
20     and these seem redundant to me.  I don't get it.  Sure,
21     it's saving money but it is not good for us out there
22     in our homes.  I am saying, please, CRTC, I hope that
23     we give some kind of favourable review to this national
24     treasure.
25  1062                 When I leave the country, I kiss the


 1     ground when I get back and the first thing I do is tune
 2     into CBC to its excellent programming and excellent
 3     information that I can receive through this shared
 4     vision that CBC provides.  I believe that it is
 5     basically since the rails have been dismantled, it is
 6     all we have that binds this country together in a
 7     concrete way.
 8  1063                 Now to address the discussion
 9     guidelines here in the public notice by the CRTC
10     1998-134.
11  1064                 The first part here, how well does
12     CBC fulfil its role, et cetera, et cetera.  Well, I
13     think the CBC fulfils its role and in the period and in
14     the new millennium, it should try and regain the ground
15     that it has lost in the past few years due to the
16     budget cuts.
17  1065                 Regional service is adequate but
18     could use some extra funding to bring it up to the
19     national standards which are very, very high.  As a
20     matter of fact, if you listen to the radio or watch the
21     television and some of my comrades, whole families,
22     would rather watch CBC television alone -- you know,
23     like rip the cable out of the back of the thing and
24     just watch CBC if that is the only thing they get
25     because they know it is always going to be decent.


 1  1066                 So I hope that we can plug some more
 2     money back into it and not take it out so Jean
 3     Chretien, if you are listening to me, please stop what
 4     you are doing.  Stop the cuts and just -- I don't know
 5     what your problem is but get over it.
 6     --- Laughter / Rires
 7  1067                 MR. VAUGHAN-BETTAKER:  The CBC, in my
 8     opinion, I guess this is to number -- should CBC be
 9     different from other broadcasters, and if so, what
10     should the difference be?
11  1068                 Well, to my mind, CBC should be a
12     springboard for up and coming Canadian talent and just
13     Canadians in general.  I believe that CBC should have
14     more of an open-stage concept to its programming, both
15     on television and radio.  Open stage meaning that not
16     so much auditioning and criticism before the talent is
17     presented but let's just try and help foster our
18     talent, provide a stepping stone for the new talent.
19  1069                 We are already a great, obviously a
20     great "farm team" to our southern neighbours, which I
21     don't think I need to go into.  I think that is quite
22     obvious.  They are always cherry picking our best down
23     south.  I just think we should build on this.  We were
24     strong.  We have a proclivity for developing an even
25     stronger base if we just give CBC the mandate to do so.


 1  1070                 I saw the Fifth Estate last night --
 2     let me know if I'm going on too long -- but I saw the
 3     Fifth Estate last night and they said we are putting --
 4     Canada is putting billions of dollars into the space
 5     arm that is up on the space station which is being used
 6     for absolutely nothing as far as I know.  It is a big
 7     station up there with the arm just like grabbing stuff
 8     and changing it around from one arm to the other.
 9  1071                 I can't understand why we are using
10     billions of dollars to do something like that and
11     taking money away from something that so many of us
12     obviously enjoy, whether we know it or not because I've
13     heard, you know, just from an actor friend of mine, he
14     said, "CBC, they are junk.  Why don't they just scrap
15     it," et cetera, et cetera.  But when I explained to him
16     that CBC does this and this and this and this and he
17     went, "Yes, oh, yes, you are right."  So even in an
18     offhand way, CBC does things for people who don't even
19     acknowledge it.
20  1072                 I am just going to wrap it up by
21     saying in my estimation, on the whole, what I think CBC
22     should do is try to give unproven talent a vehicle so
23     just on the whole.
24  1073                 Thank you very much.
25  1074                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very


 1     much.  For an ugly guy, that was a beautiful
 2     presentation.
 3  1075                 MR. VAUGHAN-BETTAKER:  Thank you.
 4     --- Laughter / Rires
 5  1076                 MR. VAUGHAN-BETTAKER:  Can I quote
 6     you?
 7  1077                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  It is on the
 8     record.
 9  1078                 MR. McWHINNEY:  Can I invite Mr. Don
10     Metz to present.
12  1079                 MR. METZ:  My name is Don Metz.  I am
13     an independent producer operating in Alberta and in
14     Canada for the last 20 years.
15  1080                 Is the CBC relevant to Canadians? 
16     Does it have a place in the 500-channel universe?  Is
17     it important or necessary that it continue to exist? 
18     These are questions that are not only obvious but need
19     to be answered soon, real soon.
20  1081                 As English-speaking Canadians, if we
21     have a vision of broadcasting in this country in which
22     Toronto culture, talent, tastes and viewing audience
23     are the only thing that matters, then we don't need the
24     CBC.  If, however, we recognize that there are other
25     regions in this country with their own stories to tell,


 1     with their own culture, talent, performers and
 2     musicians to share with the rest of Canada, then we do
 3     need CBC because nobody else is doing that.
 4  1082                 If it wasn't for CBC, there would be
 5     no place for Albertans and other regions outside
 6     central Canada to produce television programs that
 7     reflect out interests, to tell our stories, to share
 8     our view of Canada and to showcase our talent to the
 9     rest of this country.
10  1083                 In the world of private broadcasting
11     in Canada, Toronto and Montreal are the cultural
12     centres of this universe.
13  1084                 Private sector television in this
14     country is becoming more and more centralized and more
15     concerned about ratings in the U.S. marketplace than
16     relevancy to Canadians, particularly Canadians who do
17     no live in central Canada.
18  1085                 Should national ratings be the only
19     measure of whether a television show deserves to be
20     produced or not?  I hope not.
21  1086                 Suppose a show made and broadcast in
22     Alberta gets a strong regional view and audience of say
23     a quarter million viewers.  That is not a very big
24     audience by national standards but that is almost 15
25     sold out crowds at the Sky Reach Centre Arena here in


 1     Edmonton.  If it were a live performance rather than a
 2     television show, it would be considered wildly
 3     successful.  If that show was of relevance to its
 4     Alberta audience, does it not deserve to be produced?
 5  1087                 CBC is in the unique position of not
 6     having to rely on ratings as its measure of success.
 7  1088                 For small production companies and
 8     independent producers, developing new programs for
 9     national audience is almost impossible unless you are
10     based in Toronto, Vancouver.  And if your ideas don't
11     reflect the tastes, interests and cultural values of
12     central Canada, the chances that your program will be
13     produced are next to none except for the CBC.
14  1089                 Who is to say that the tastes of
15     Toronto audience are the tastes of the nation, or more
16     important, are more relevant?  What about the stories
17     and ideas that we in Alberta have to share with the
18     rest of this country?  What about our talent and our
19     performers and our musicians?  How do ideas for
20     programs and television series that don't originate in
21     Toronto or Vancouver, Montreal ever see the light of
22     day?
23  1090                 There are other voices in this
24     country and there are other stories to be told.  I own
25     a small production company based here in Edmonton


 1     called "Equilla(ph) Productions".  We have developing a
 2     country music, comedy series to showcase Alberta comedy
 3     and music for over two years.  Briefly, our show is
 4     called "The Barn Satellite Network".  The premise is
 5     that a rancher and country star wannabe accidentally
 6     gets stuck with some satellite transmitter equipment at
 7     a country auction and decides to start his own pilot
 8     country music station and go off to this barn with the
 9     help of the local farming community.  The show features
10     country music guests and sketch comedy, sort of an SCTV
11     meets the Tommy Hunter show, if you get the idea.
12     --- Laughter / Rires
13  1091                 MR. METZ:  We feel it is a great
14     concept and this show, if done well, could easily be
15     successful as a national network program, both here and
16     the U.S.  So far I've raised and spent more than a
17     quarter million dollars in producing a high quality
18     pilot episode to sell the series to a broadcaster.  The
19     pilot we did was very well received and there has been
20     much interest expressed by broadcasters in both the
21     U.S. and in Canada who said they would be interested in
22     the show once we were in production.  But nobody was
23     willing to take the risk in actually developing and
24     investing in the show and ultimately being the first
25     broadcaster, nobody except the CBC.


 1  1092                 My most recent experience with the
 2     CBC began last year when they offered to help us
 3     develop the show and broadcast it regionally here in
 4     Alberta.  If it does well after the first year or two
 5     of production, it is possible it will move to the
 6     national network.  The people at CBC have been
 7     overwhelmingly enthusiastic, supportive and energetic
 8     in helping develop our show.  We have been working with
 9     people like Joe Novak and Steve Lassman(ph) from CBC
10     Alberta.
11  1093                 There is one myth about CBC that I
12     would like to dispel based on our experiences.  After
13     hearing horror stories about bureaucracy at CBC, was
14     expecting months of delays, endless unnecessary
15     meetings at which little got accomplished and having to
16     generate mountains of paperwork.  Instead I have been
17     pleasantly surprised by the fact that our dealings with
18     the CBC have moved along very quickly and
19     professionally with virtually no red tape or
20     unnecessary delays.  I can honestly say that I have
21     enjoyed the entire process.
22  1094                 They have truly become our partners
23     and share our vision that this show cannot only be
24     national within the first year or two but could easily
25     gain popularity in the U.S. for the same reasons that


 1     Red Green and Due South have become so popular.  But
 2     only CBC had the courage and more importantly, the
 3     mandate to give a program from a small independent
 4     production company in Alberta and give it a chance and
 5     for that we are grateful.
 6  1095                 I would like to dispel another myth
 7     about CBC based on our experience and that is their
 8     reputation for throwing around money.
 9  1096                 CBC has offered to air our program
10     but they have only offered a 20 per cent license fee
11     which means we are responsible for finding the other 80
12     per cent of our production funding through investors
13     and sponsors.  Obviously we would like the CBC to pay
14     for the whole production if they could but their offer
15     is fair without being overly generous.
16  1097                 But the point is, CBC has provided us
17     with a place to air our program and a reasonable amount
18     of money to kick start our efforts and without their
19     commitment, this very promising born in Alberta
20     television series might not get off the ground.
21  1098                 Although my company, Equilla(ph)
22     Productions has only 15 full-time employees by itself,
23     we have a list of more than 100 writers, producers,
24     composers, musicians, artists, directors, sound
25     technicians, editors and other production personnel


 1     that we keep busy on a regular basis on a variety of
 2     projects.
 3  1099                 The economic spin offs of a
 4     production would be significant to our industry and to
 5     the province.  You know, by national standards, it is a
 6     small budget show being produced by a local company.
 7  1100                 A show like this also creates untold
 8     benefits for the musicians and performers who appear on
 9     the show by introducing them to national and
10     international audiences that they may never have had
11     access to otherwise.
12  1101                 Only CBC is willing to take these
13     kind of risks and they do it with the tradition of
14     quality and legacy of excellence.  As the expectations
15     of audiences grow higher each day, mostly due to the
16     American television shows with bigger and bigger
17     budgets, CBC has kept pace and has always maintained
18     standards of creativity and quality that are truly
19     world class.
20  1102                 It is ironic that the Canadian
21     government is passing legislation to protect the
22     Canadian magazine industry to supposedly protect
23     Canadian culture.  But in an age where television
24     dominates all forms of mass media, I feel the biggest
25     threat to losing our identity as a nation is the loss


 1     of our ability to tell our own stories to our own
 2     people.  That is what culture is.
 3  1103                 The private broadcasting sector in
 4     this country can never serve this role as long as they
 5     are ratings and profit motivated.  Over the years, CBC
 6     has spent billions of dollars building a network and a
 7     production infrastructure that is second to none.
 8  1104                 Are we going to dismantle this
 9     resource or let it whither or die from lack of use?  As
10     long as we consider ourselves to be a different nation
11     and a different people from the United States, I say
12     that it is imperative that the CBC continue to serve
13     its role as Canada's only true national and regional
14     broadcaster.
15  1105                 We need to ensure that CBC Alberta
16     has the resources to tell our stories in our own way to
17     ourselves, to the rest of the country and to the rest
18     of the world.
19  1106                 Thank you.
20     --- Applause / Applaudissements
21  1107                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Metz, you are
22     our last presenter and you were eloquent beyond
23     measure.  Thank you very, very much.
24  1108                 Mr. Novak, I don't really know if 
25     you need to say anything after that but you are


 1     certainly welcome to.
 2  1109                 Mr. Novak is here from the CBC and
 3     those of you who have been with us this evening have
 4     heard his name a number of times and we would like to
 5     invite him now to say a few words on behalf of the CBC.
 7  1110                 MR. NOVAK:  Thank you very much.
 8  1111                 This seems to be the seat of choice
 9     in this part of the session.
10  1112                 Let me thank Commissioner Langford. 
11     I am the new Regional Director for the CBC Television
12     Service in Alberta.  I am speaking on behalf of myself
13     and my colleague, Don Orchard, the Director of Radio
14     for Alberta, who is in the next room adjoining us, also
15     listening to the comments and views of the people of
16     Alberta.
17  1113                 I think the first thing I would like
18     to do is just say thank you to all of you who have come
19     to hear what has to be said, to offer your thoughts,
20     you comments, your insight, your inspiration, your
21     hopes for the CBC.  I think that is very important to
22     all of us at the CBC.  It is especially important for
23     someone like myself who is new to the province and it
24     is an extraordinary opportunity I have had all day
25     today to listen to the comments of our viewers and our


 1     stakeholders.
 2  1114                 Our role here in being here is to
 3     listen and to listen very carefully to what you have
 4     had to say and I want to assure you that we intend to
 5     respond individually to each of the presentations we
 6     have heard.
 7  1115                 I think many of the issues discussed
 8     are the same ones that we struggle with regionally here
 9     at CBC Edmonton and CBC in Calgary and at network
10     headquarters in Toronto.  Issues such as how do we
11     maintain the quality of our radio and television
12     programming with greatly reduced resources.  How do we
13     provide balanced journalism that goes beyond the
14     headlines?  How do we make sure that CBC programming,
15     especially in our news and public affairs, is free of
16     influence from special interest groups, lobby groups. 
17     How do we make sure that when we present our stories
18     that they are indeed fair and balanced?
19  1116                 I guess the biggest challenge for us
20     is how to reflect the rich cultural diversity of this
21     province to itself and to the rest of the country.
22  1117                 I think that the comments that we
23     have heard today are going to inspire us, they are
24     going to guide us and they are going to help us do what
25     we are mandated to do even better.


 1  1118                 We want to make sure that here are
 2     some under-served audiences such as youth programming
 3     that we will provide energy and effort into serving
 4     this under-represented audience on the CBC which is
 5     youth.
 6  1119                 I do want to clear up one and only
 7     one misnomer at this point and there was a comment made
 8     in passing that the prime time schedule emanates from
 9     Toronto.  In actual fact, real careful examination of
10     that prime time schedule to CBC will find that much of
11     the programming does not indeed come from Toronto but
12     comes from regional production centres across this
13     country whether it is This Hour Has 22 Minutes from the
14     east coast, whether it is Da Vinci's Inquest from
15     Vancouver, whether it is On the Road Again which comes
16     from everywhere.  I just wanted to clear up and make
17     that one point clear about the prime time schedule.
18  1120                 There is no question that the budget
19     cuts over the past ten years have affected dramatically
20     CBC's ability to do everything it would like to do here
21     in Alberta.  While I cannot make programming promises
22     because an awful lot of what we are able to do is
23     dependent on the resources, I can promise you this,
24     that we will continue to respond to the needs of the
25     people of Alberta as efficiently and as fairly as we


 1     most possibly can.
 2  1121                 You told us to restore local news,
 3     the supper hour program in Calgary.  That has been done
 4     and a new supper hour program will be on the air in
 5     Calgary as soon as the labour management dispute at CBC
 6     is over.
 7  1122                 You told us that you want to see more
 8     Alberta productions in the region shown to the people
 9     of Alberta but also from Alberta to the rest of the
10     country.  We have taken small but definite initiatives
11     such as the Barn Satellite Network, such as documentary
12     co-productions between NewsWorld and independent
13     producers in Alberta.  We have a number of projects
14     that we have put in in development to be able to bring
15     to the national network for national broadcast.
16  1123                 I think I would like to say that Don
17     Orchard, the Director of Radio for Alberta, and myself,
18     are committed to making CBC Radio and CBC Television in
19     Alberta even more accessible, more accountable, more
20     relevant and indeed of more value in the daily lives of
21     the people who live here.
22  1124                 I think forums like this such as the
23     CRTC Consultative Hearings are a very important way for
24     us to achieve that.
25  1125                 So we thank you very much for this


 1     opportunity on behalf of the CBC and the staff of CBC
 2     who work and live in Alberta.
 3     --- Applause / Applaudissements
 4  1126                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
 5     Novak.
 6  1127                 Thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for
 7     sticking with us.  I know we lost a few people during
 8     the break but we tried to stretch that break out to
 9     make sure that the last few people coming would get a
10     chance.
11  1128                 Like Mr. Novak, I can only repeat
12     that we are here to listen.  The next step in this
13     process will be for me and my colleague, Cindy Grauer,
14     in the next room, to take what we have learned here in
15     Edmonton, to go back to our offices in Hull to sit
16     around that table in the Rheal Terrier(ph) and to put
17     out on that able what we have heard from people in
18     Vancouver, Edmonton, Winnipeg, Regina, Windsor,
19     Sudbury, Montreal, Quebec City -- I may get them all if
20     I am careful -- Moncton, Sydney and Charlottetown.  I
21     think that is the lot, pretty close anyway.
22  1129                 Put them all out there, work with
23     that information to formulate some of the questions and
24     concerns that we will be putting to Mr. Novak and other
25     CBC representatives when they come before us at the May


 1     25th hearing.
 2  1130                 At the same time, the CBC
 3     representatives have been here.  There are no
 4     surprises.  Nobody is out to sandbag anyone in this
 5     process.  These are two public institutions trying to
 6     work together to make it better for everyone.  This
 7     isn't the O.J. Simpson trial we are leading up to here. 
 8     This is a process of trying to make the best possible
 9     product for Canadians.  We will all work together with
10     the information that you and other Canadians have given
11     us.  We are back and forth with the CBC with what we
12     call interrogatories, wearing the poor people out with
13     our questions but hopefully we are all pulling in the
14     same direction and to try to find a renewed and
15     rejuvenated CBC that will be serving the needs of
16     Canadians.  That is why we came to Edmonton.  We are
17     very glad we did.
18  1131                 Again, thank you very much.  I want
19     to thank as well, Michelle Edge, who handled the front
20     desk so well, Cindy and Jim who were doing the
21     thankless job here of making sure we have got
22     everything clear for the record, my colleague, Michael
23     McWhinney, who kept us on time, and of course, each and
24     every one of you for your input into this process.
25  1132                 Thank you very, very much.  Good


 1     night.
 2     --- Applause / Applaudissements
 3     --- Whereupon the public consultation concluded
 4         at 2035 / La consultation publique se termine
 5         à 2035

Date modified: