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Providing Content in Canada's Official Languages

Please note that the Official Languages Act requires that government publications be available in both official languages.

In order to meet some of the requirements under this Act, the Commission's transcripts will therefore be bilingual as to their covers, the listing of CRTC members and staff attending the hearings, and the table of contents.

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded verbatim transcript and, as such, is transcribed in either of the official languages, depending on the language spoken by the participant at the hearing.

                   TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
             FOR THE CANADIAN RADIO-TELEVISION AND
                 TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION

                TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DU
                 CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION
             ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES

                       SUBJECT / SUJET:

                  PUBLIC CONSULTATION ON THE 
           CANADIAN BROADCASTING CORPORATION (CBC)/
                CONSULTATIONS PUBLIQUES SUR LA 
                  SOCIÉTÉ RADIO-CANADA (SRC)

HELD AT:                                TENUE À:

Four Points Hotel                       Hôtel Four Points
Room Georgian B & C                     Salle Georgian B & C
1696 Regent Street South                1696, rue Regent Sud
Sudbury, Ontario                        Sudbury, Ontario

March 16, 1999                          Le 16 mars 1999

tel: 613-521-0703         StenoTran         fax: 613-521-7668

Transcripts

In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages
Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be
bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members
and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of
Contents.

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded
verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in
either of the official languages, depending on the language
spoken by the participant at the public hearing.

Transcription

Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues
officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront
bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des
membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience
publique ainsi que la table des matières.

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu
textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée
et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues
officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le
participant à l'audience publique.

                          StenoTran

                 Canadian Radio-television and
                 Telecommunications Commission

              Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des
                télécommunications canadiennes

                  Transcript / Transcription

              Public Hearing / Audience publique

                  PUBLIC CONSULTATION ON THE 
           CANADIAN BROADCASTING CORPORATION (CBC)/
                CONSULTATIONS PUBLIQUES SUR LA 
                  SOCIÉTÉ RADIO-CANADA (SRC)

BEFORE / DEVANT:

Joan Pennefather                        Chairperson / Présidente

Barbara Cram                            Commissioner / Commissioner

ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:

Donald Rhéaume                          Commission Counsel /
                                        Avocat du Conseil

Rod Lahay                               Broadcasting Planning
                                        Services / Service de la
                                        planification de la
                                        radiodiffusion

HELD AT:                                TENUE À:

Four Points Hotel                       Hôtel Four Points
Room Georgian A & B                     Salle Georgian A & B
1696 Regent Street South                1696, rue Regent Sud
Sudbury, Ontario                        Sudbury, Ontario

March 16, 1999                          Le 16 mars 1999
                          StenoTran

                              ii   
            TABLE OF CONTENTS / TABLE DES MATIÈRES

                                                          PAGE

Presentation by / Présentation par:

Mr. J.A.L. Robertson                                         8

Mr. David Hogg                                              17

Mr. Paul Sauvé                                              25

Mrs. Betty Cajanek                                          34

Mr. Tom Gerry                                               40

Mr. Charlie Smith                                           45

Ms Daryl Shandro                                            50

Ms Marian Gilmour                                           59

Ms Liz Campbell                                             68

Mr. John Lindsay                                            70

Ms Eveline St-Denis                                         77

Mr. William Scoffield                                       82

Mrs. Janna Ramsay Best                                      96

Mr. Steve Dodson                                           108

Mr. Jean Charron / Mrs. Pamela Charron                     118

Ms Patricia Hatala                                         124

Mr. Alex MacGregor                                         130

Mr. Mark Laing                                             136

Mr. Georges Linsey                                         150
                          StenoTran

                             iii
            TABLE OF CONTENTS / TABLE DES MATIÈRES

                                                          PAGE

Presentation by / Présentation par:

Mr. Bill Oja                                               153

Mr. Richard Destefano                                      155

Mr. Karl Skierszkan                                        170

Mr. Ronald Brisebois                                       175

Mr. Walter Halchuk                                         178

Ms Jami van Haaften                                        189

Mr. Paul Reid                                              195

Mr. Alan Jennings                                          200

Mr. Leoonard Ouellette                                     207

Reply by: / Réplique par:

Ms Mariam Fry                                              142

Mr. Bruce Taylor                                           193
                          StenoTran

                             1

 1                        Sudbury, Ontario / Sudbury (Ontario)
 2     --- Upon commencing on Tuesday, March 16, 1999
 3         at 1310 / L'audience reprend le mardi
 4         16 mars 1999, à 1310
 5  1                    THE CHAIRPERSON:  Ladies and
 6     gentlemen, I think we will get under way.
 7  2                    Bonjour, mesdames et messieurs et
 8     bienvenue à cette consultation publique.
 9  3                    Mon nom est Joan Pennefather. 
10     Permettez-moi de vous présenter ma collègue,
11     Mme Barbara Cram.  Nous sommes toutes deux conseillères
12     auprès du CRTC.
13  4                    My name is Joan Pennefather.  With me
14     today is my colleague Barbara Cram.  We are both
15     Commissioners at the CRTC.
16  5                    Nous sommes ici pour requérir vos
17     points de vue et vos commentaires sur la radio et la
18     télévision de Radio-Canada.  Comment croyez-vous que la
19     SRC devrait remplir son rôle dans les années à venir? 
20     Voilà le genre de question auquel nous voulons entendre
21     vos réponses.
22  6                    The CBC is a national public service,
23     broadcasting in English as well as in French.  It plays
24     an important role in the Canadian broadcasting system.
25     Today, many elements are constantly being added to the
                          StenoTran

                             2

 1     broadcasting system as new technologies multiply,
 2     converge, open up new horizons, and increasingly offer
 3     new services.
 4  7                    In this context we want to know what
 5     are your needs and expectations as viewers and as
 6     listeners of the CBC.
 7  8                    Il est donc très important pour le
 8     Conseil d'entendre ce que vous avez à dire à ce sujet. 
 9     Il ne faut pas oublier que le CRTC est un organisme
10     public au service des citoyens et citoyennes.  À ce
11     titre, il a une responsabilité envers eux.
12  9                    C'est pourquoi mes collègues
13     conseillers et moi-même trouvons essentiel de venir
14     vous rencontrer.  Nous sommes donc présents dans onze
15     villes canadiennes du 9 au 18 mars inclusivement pour
16     tenir cette série de consultations régionales d'un bout
17     à l'autre du pays.
18  10                   Again, it is very important that the
19     Commission hears what you have to say.  We must not
20     lose sight of the fact that the CRTC is a public
21     organization that serves Canadian citizens.  In this
22     capacity, we are responsible to you.  This is why my
23     fellow Commissioners and myself find it vital to come
24     and meet with you to discuss these issues and why we
25     are holding this series of regional consultations from
                          StenoTran

                             3

 1     one end of the country to the other, in 11 Canadian
 2     cities, from March 9th to March 18th.
 3  11                   These consultations are designed to
 4     give you a chance, on the eve of the new millennium, to
 5     express your opinion on the CBC's role, the programming
 6     it offers and the direction it should take at the
 7     national, regional and local levels.
 8  12                   Through these consultations we hope
 9     to enter into an open dialogue with you and hear your
10     concerns.
11  13                   Ladies and gentlemen, your comments
12     will form part of the public record which will be added
13     to the record of the public hearing on the CBC that
14     will begin in Hull next May 25th.  At this upcoming
15     hearing the Commission will examine the CBC's
16     application for the renewal of its licences, including
17     radio, television and its specialty services, Newsworld
18     and Réseau de l'information.
19  14                   You can also take part in that public
20     hearing by sending your written comments to the CRTC. 
21     If you wish to do so, please remember to refer to the
22     specific licence renewals being examined when you file
23     your comments.
24  15                   Tous vos commentaires aujourd'hui
25     feront partie du dossier public.  Il sera lui-même
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                             4

 1     ajouté à celui de l'audience publique qui s'ouvrira à
 2     Hull le 25 mai prochain.
 3  16                   C'est au cours de cette audience que
 4     notre Conseil étudiera les demandes pour renouveler les
 5     licences de radio et de télévision de la SRC ainsi que
 6     ses services spécialisés, RDI et Newsworld.
 7  17                   Vous pouvez aussi participé à cette
 8     audience en faisant parvenir une intervention écrite au
 9     CRTC.  Vos observations devront alors porter
10     spécifiquement sur le renouvellement des licences en
11     question.
12  18                   Now I would like to come to today's
13     consultations and talk to you about how we are
14     organized throughout this afternoon and this evening.
15  19                   First of all, it is my pleasure to
16     introduce the CRTC staff here today who will be
17     assisting us.
18  20                   Donald Rhéaume is our legal counsel;
19     and Rod Lahay -- both gentlemen sitting here to my
20     right -- is from our Broadcasting Planning Service.
21  21                   Please feel free to call on them with
22     any questions you might have about the process today,
23     or any other matter, including any questions on my
24     remarks.
25  22                   So that you will all have an
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                             5

 1     opportunity to speak, we would ask that you please
 2     limit your presentation to ten minutes.  I have a small
 3     but effective watch, and we will try to keep within
 4     that timeframe, but hopefully allowing you to express
 5     fully your point of view at the same time.
 6  23                   As these consultations are a forum
 7     designed especially for you and we want to listen to as
 8     many participants as possible, we -- Madam Cram and
 9     myself and the staff -- will not ask any questions
10     unless we need clarification.
11  24                   We will go through our whole list
12     timed for this afternoon, hopefully to be finished by
13     5:00; but please be assured that if you are scheduled
14     for this afternoon, we will continue until you have
15     been heard.
16  25                   At the end of this session,
17     representatives from the local CBC stations will have a
18     chance to offer their views, as they are naturally very
19     interested in the issues we are discussing here today.
20  26                   Pour que vous ayez tous l'occasion de
21     vous faire entendre, nous vous demandons de limiter
22     votre présentation à 10 minutes.  Ces consultations
23     sont votre tribune à vous et nous voulons être à
24     l'écoute du plus grand nombre possible d'intervenants. 
25     Nous ne poserons donc pas de question, sauf si nous
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                             6

 1     avons besoin de clarification.
 2  27                   Après vos interventions, les
 3     représentants des stations locales de Radio-Canada
 4     auront également droit de parole puisque ce sont les
 5     premières intéressées par les questions que nous
 6     abordons aujourd'hui.
 7  28                   Just before we begin, then, I am
 8     going to turn the mic over to Mr. Lahay to describe to
 9     you in a little more detail some housekeeping matters
10     and how the process will work this afternoon.
11  29                   Rod.
12  30                   MR. LAHAY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
13  31                   I would like to go over a few
14     housekeeping items this afternoon which are designed
15     for everybody's attention, and which will make this
16     process run a little smoother.
17  32                   We will be calling the presenters
18     today in groups of ten.  We will do ten people at a
19     time.  I will go over the names of the first ten, and
20     as you are called you will be presented in that order.
21  33                   I would ask you to give your speech
22     in ten minutes, as suggested, please, and try to stick
23     with that timeframe.  It will make it much easier for
24     everybody to finish on time.
25  34                   We will be calling breaks this
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                             7

 1     afternoon.  Madam Chair will announce them at the
 2     appropriate time.
 3  35                   We have translation service over
 4     here.  If you are in need of English or French, please
 5     feel free to go to them; but be prepared to present
 6     some identification in order to receive your device.
 7  36                   For the first ten we will start with
 8     Mr. J.A.L. Robertson.
 9  37                   As I call your name, please feel free
10     to come forward and sit around the table.
11  38                   Mrs. Catherine Meyer; Ms Rosemary
12     Connell; David Hogg; Paul Sauvé; Mrs. Betty Cajanek;
13     Tom Gerry; Mr. Charlie Smith; Daryl Shandra; and Marian
14     Gilmour.
15  39                   Please come forward and we will start
16     with Mr. Robertson.
17  40                   When you start your presentation,
18     will you please give your name for the transcripts and
19     the court reporter, so we will know who is actually
20     making the comments.
21  41                   Thank you.
22                                                        1312
23  42                   THE CHAIRPERSON:  Whenever you are
24     ready, Mr. Robertson.
25     PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
                          StenoTran

                             8

 1  43                   MR. ROBERTSON:  Madam, my purpose is
 2     to provide the CRTC with evidence of persistent bias
 3     against nuclear energy by the CBC, to analyze the forms
 4     taken by this bias, to suggest possible root causes,
 5     and to recommend remedial measures.  That is why the
 6     submission is entitled "To Air is To Err".
 7  44                   The relevance to the CRTC of this
 8     submission on a single issue is that there is evidence
 9     that the bias may be much more widespread, extending to
10     industry and elsewhere.
11  45                   I recognize that there is much that
12     is still good in CBC programming and do not wish to
13     destroy a once respected Canadian heritage.  I come
14     neither to praise or to bury CBCers.  I hope that this
15     submission may help the CBC restore its credibility and
16     re-earn the trust of a large segment of the Canadian
17     public.  the CBC's mandate is to unite Canadians;
18     satanizing the nuclear industry and other sectors of
19     society is divisive.
20  46                   The 32-page printed version documents
21     evidence of systemic anti-nuclear bias exhibited by the
22     CBC.  Three major observations jump out from the
23     evidence:
24  47                   1.  The staggering number of
25     instances of insidious and invidious bias.
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                             9

 1  48                   2.  The fact that these have
 2     persisted for a quarter of a century.
 3  49                   3.  The failure by members of the
 4     public to obtain redress through all available
 5     channels.
 6  50                   I analyzed the evidence into six
 7     categories:
 8  51                   1.  Simple falsehoods, which are
 9     relatively infrequent.
10  52                   About equally responsible for the
11     bulk of the evidence are the next three:
12  53                   2.  Misleading statements,
13     distortions, unfounded allegations and opinions stated
14     as fact.
15  54                   3.  Selectivity, particularly in the
16     choice of those interviewed and in the time accorded
17     them.
18  55                   4.  Prejudicial behaviour of program
19     hosts.
20  56                   The two other, though less frequent,
21     are more serious:
22  57                   5.  The long-standing practice of the
23     CBC to allow staff with allegiance to anti-nuclear
24     organizations to participate in the production and
25     presentation of programs on this issue.
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 1  58                   6.  The exploitation of psychological
 2     means that create anti-nuclear impressions in the
 3     audience, such as docudramas, eerie music, clips of a
 4     mushroom cloud to illustrate programs on peaceful
 5     nuclear energy and other forms of scare-mongering.
 6  59                   The analysis includes instances of
 7     the CRTC failing to correct such abuses when they were
 8     brought to its attention.
 9  60                   In seeking root causes of this bias
10     against nuclear energy, I suggest that much of it can
11     be assigned to ignorance rather than malice.  The media
12     in general, and the CBC in particular, are mainly drawn
13     from the liberal arts community, one often antipathetic
14     if not antagonistic to industry and technology.  As
15     such, they are susceptible to claims by well-organized
16     anti-nuclear groups, and unqualified, through lack of
17     mathematical and scientific training, to challenge
18     them.
19  61                   Many of those now controlling the
20     media were brought up in the 1960s, uncritically
21     importing the U.S.'s anti-military, anti-police, anti-
22     establishment attitudes that were sometimes appropriate
23     there, but not in Canada.  A generally low standard of
24     media ethics, characterized by "the end justifies the
25     means", contributes:  if the producers and hosts
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                             11

 1     believe that nuclear energy is evil, then they can
 2     convince themselves that they should expose this to
 3     their audiences.  "Watergate-envy" leads them to
 4     present anything they learn as an expose, and to find
 5     conspiracies where none exists.
 6  62                   Much less defensible is the
 7     concealment of a conflict of interest on the part of
 8     producers and hosts.  I doubt that people watching a
 9     "The Nature of Things" program on nuclear energy
10     realize that the CRTC has stated that "the Television
11     Broadcasting Regulations, which prohibit the broadcast
12     of false or misleading news, does not apply to a
13     program like (this)", or that the host, David Suzuki,
14     was on the board of directors of the leading anti-
15     nuclear organization.  Max Allen, producer of another
16     anti-nuclear program, was also a member of that
17     organization.
18  63                   If the CBC is aware of this bias, it
19     is in violation of its own "Journalistic Policy"; if
20     not, it is not competent to provide programming on this
21     issue, despite its avowed intention to provide
22     "enlightenment".
23  64                   Either way, it is presumably in
24     violation of the Broadcasting Act that requires that
25     "programming...be of a high standard".  It is
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                             12

 1     journalism like this that gives libel chill a good
 2     name.
 3  65                   I allege bias on the part of the CBC
 4     in its treatment of nuclear energy.  The CBC has denied
 5     this and has assured the CRTC in writing that it
 6     monitors for bias.  (See Appendix 2 of the written
 7     version for relevant correspondence.)
 8  66                   There is a simple means of resolving
 9     this conflict.  The CRTC should require the CBC to
10     table at these hearings the results of its monitoring,
11     so that the CRTC and the public may adjudicate between
12     the CBC's claims and mine.
13  67                   Most of my other recommendations are
14     couched in terms applicable to all controversial
15     issues, not just nuclear energy.
16  68                   The CRTC should require the CBC to:
17  69                   (1) recognize and acknowledge bias by
18     the CRTC in its treatment of nuclear energy;
19  70                   (2) enforce existing policies;
20  71                   (3) eliminate from these policies
21     exemptions for contract staff and for "documentaries";
22  72                   (4) exclude from the production and
23     presentation of a program on an issue of public concern
24     anyone who has taken a public stance on that issue,
25     either as a proponent or an opponent;
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 1  73                   (5) monitor for balance on issues of
 2     public concern;
 3  74                   (6) introduce some platform for
 4     corrections;
 5  75                   (7) provide a publicly accessible log
 6     of complaints including their disposition, ideally
 7     available through the Internet;
 8  76                   (8) maintain a publicly accessible
 9     list, ideally available through the Internet, of
10     individuals called on for interviews on issues of
11     public concern, identifying each as for or against, or
12     neutral; and
13  77                   (9) issue an annual report
14     summarizing these complaints by issue, giving
15     statistics.
16  78                   To ensure that the CBC corrects its
17     errors, the CRTC should:
18  79                   (1) improve its monitoring of CBC
19     compliance with requirements;
20  80                   (2) be more diligent in investigating
21     complaints;
22  81                   (3) invoke sanctions for repeated
23     infractions;
24  82                   (4) review the CBC's "Journalistic
25     Policy", and possibly other documents, in the CBC's
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                             14

 1     licence.
 2  83                   Some examples of the evidence that I
 3     have supplied are:
 4  84                   1.  A producer told a host to
 5     "emphasize things scary".
 6  85                   2.  Three high profile hosts admitted
 7     to ignoring the CBC's "Journalistic Policy".
 8  86                   3.  A nuclear spokesman was de-
 9     invited because the nuclear critic had left town but
10     the anti-nuclear interview was put out anyway.
11  87                   4.  A professor was de-invited when
12     he failed to provide the alarmist quotes wanted.
13  88                   5.  The CBC repeatedly refers to
14     thousands of deaths from the Chernobyl accident and
15     ignores the figure of less than 50 agreed by a
16     conference of 845 scientists sponsored by the UN.
17  89                   6.  One program even claimed a death
18     toll of 50,000 from the Three Mile Island accident,
19     compared with the generally accepted figure of one
20     person who may eventually die.
21  90                   7.  A docudrama pretended that a
22     Chernobyl-like accident had occurred near Toronto.
23  91                   8.  Such scary misinformation is
24     partly due to selective interviews with anti-nuclear
25     activists, introduced as experts but regarded as
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 1     mavericks by their peers; and without any opportunity
 2     for rebuttal.
 3  92                   9.  One high profile host, David
 4     Suzuki, repeatedly attacks nuclear energy and promotes
 5     conservation, concealing the fact that airtight
 6     dwellings could expose occupants to more radiation from
 7     radon gas in a year than they would get from nuclear
 8     energy in a lifetime.
 9  93                   To finish, I will summarize in a
10     parody of a CBC broadcast:
11                            "Today at Sudbury a public
12                            hearing into the CBC's
13                            performance learned of systemic
14                            bias in its treatment of issues
15                            of public concern.  A 32-page
16                            exposé by an honoured
17                            scientist..."
18  94                   That's me.
19                            "...documented abundant evidence
20                            of bias extending over 25 years. 
21                            Among his examples of scare-
22                            mongering, the CBC has
23                            repeatedly exaggerated the death
24                            toll of accidents by a factor of
25                            at least 20, and once 50,000. 
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 1                            He argued that the CBC appears
 2                            to be in violation of the
 3                            Broadcasting Act and challenged
 4                            it to make public the results of
 5                            monitoring for bias...It was
 6                            revealed that card-carrying
 7                            members of a pressure group
 8                            active in these issues have
 9                            operated within the CBC for at
10                            least 20 years, employed on the
11                            production and presentation of
12                            programs on these issues.  We
13                            have obtained copies of letters
14                            showing that the CRTC was made
15                            aware of the bias, and the
16                            existence of "moles" within the
17                            CBC, as long ago as 1988, but it
18                            chose to take no action."
19  95                   Thank you.
20  96                   THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
21     Robertson.
22  97                   Mr. Lahay.
23                                                        1325
24  98                   MR. LAHAY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
25  99                   One further note.  If you don't mind
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                             17

 1     leaving a copy of your presentations, feel free to
 2     leave them with the Commission.  Thank you.
 3  100                  Next is Mrs. Catherine Meyer.
 4  101                  She is not here.
 5  102                  Mrs. Rosemay Connell.
 6  103                  David Hogg.
 7     PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
 8  104                  MR. HOGG:  My name is David Hogg.  I
 9     have come here from Toronto, because I believe my
10     comments are correspondingly important for all
11     Canadians.
12  105                  I am a professional engineer and
13     accountant.  I am not a brain surgeon or rocket
14     scientist, nor have I ever claimed to be of that
15     calibre.  But then I do not believe that that level of
16     intelligence is necessary to understand the issues of
17     fairness and justice which I am going to raise.
18  106                  I am limiting my comments to CBC TV.
19  107                  I should say at the outset that I did
20     try to have a face-to-face meeting over these matters,
21     and that never came to happen.
22  108                  I have heard many Catholics express a
23     concern that CBC is anti-Catholic.  By this, they mean
24     that CBC TV appears to take deliberate steps to portray
25     the Catholic faith in an unfavourable light.
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                             18

 1  109                  My wife and I have a personal
 2     experience which we did not get to bring before the
 3     CRTC for reasons I still do not understand.
 4  110                  Recently, if there was an issue which
 5     could be portrayed as contentious, one can only
 6     conclude CBC TV's deliberate policy has been to use
 7     well-known dissidents.  One dissident in particular
 8     simply does not understand the Catholic faith.
 9  111                  Why would CBC TV go to this person
10     repeatedly?  Are they more interested, as David
11     Halverston(ph) wrote, in heat and light?  Is this their
12     mission?  I do not think so.
13  112                  If they are funded with public money,
14     they above all others have an obligation to present,
15     with fairness and integrity, the reality and plurality
16     which is Canada.  CBC TV has absolutely no mandate to
17     present their own agenda which infringes the rights of
18     others.
19  113                  After the experience that I want to
20     share with you, I now believe CBC TV's agenda is not
21     uniquely directed at Catholics but is generally anti
22     all religions.
23  114                  On June 12, 1998 CBC TV aired on the
24     "National Magazine" a program "Faith and Media". 
25     Ostensibly, it was to deal with complaints that
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                             19

 1     religions were not being fairly dealt with by the
 2     media.  I was so disappointed with the approach of the
 3     moderator that I ordered a transcript.  The following
 4     quotations, therefore, are precisely accurate.
 5  115                  Hanna Gardner's(ph) brief opening
 6     stage-setting remark contained:
 7                            "Whether it is violence in the
 8                            Middle East or Northern Ireland
 9                            or the escalating conflict
10                            between India and Pakistan, the
11                            common threat that ties so much
12                            of the trouble in our world
13                            today is religion." (As read)
14  116                  I took issue with Ms Gardner's use of
15     "so much".  When "so much" is used and when it is
16     challenged, a fair and reasonable expectation would be
17     that the contention would be defended.
18  117                  For example, she spends "so much"
19     time studying, or he spends "so much" time on his cars. 
20     The defences might be that she studies ten hours a day,
21     six days a week; and he spends the whole of the
22     weekend, stopping only to eat and sleep, cleaning and
23     polishing his cars.
24  118                  I e-mailed CBC to ask Ms Gardner to
25     defend her contention with verifiable data as evidence. 
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 1     I believe firmly in the principle of subsidiarity,
 2     starting with the person who made or wrote the remark. 
 3     I got nowhere.  So I contacted CBC's ombudsman for
 4     help, pointing out that anti-religious Stalin and
 5     Hitler, between them, caused more trouble than all
 6     religions from the beginning of time.
 7  119                  As well, it was pointed out there is
 8     Bosnia, Rwanda -- God help us -- Kosovo, et cetera.
 9  120                  Further into the show Ms Gardner
10     delivered:
11                            "Maybe it would help if we had a
12                            very practical example.  Okay. 
13                            We are covering a story on
14                            abortion clinics and bombings. 
15                            Doctors who perform abortions
16                            are being shot at, some killed. 
17                            How do you do that story with
18                            sensitivity to everyone?"  (As
19                            read)
20  121                  Since the show was broadcast by
21     Canadian television for a Canadian audience, I submit
22     the content should be judged in a Canadian context.  I
23     contend that in introducing in this manner, in a panel
24     discussion in which mainstream Canadian religions were
25     representative, the strong inference was that these
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                             21

 1     religions were somehow implicated, even though that was
 2     not stated specifically.
 3  122                  I had been researching the causes of
 4     the only abortion clinic bombing.  It was really a case
 5     of arson.  The lead detective on that case, Detective
 6     John Boyce, with whom I have spoken, was not prepared
 7     to attribute blame to those in the Pro-Life Movement or
 8     abortion supporters.  I have been unable to find any
 9     responsible authority who would attribute these acts to
10     mainstream religions, Canadian or other.
11  123                  What was the purpose of raising this
12     issue in this forum?
13  124                  I asked for evidence to support the
14     proprietary of this comment in this forum.  None was
15     provided.
16  125                  A short time after, CBC aired a
17     program on a women's book store located on the same
18     premises as the abortion clinic.  A statement was made
19     "there was arson in the book store aimed at the
20     abortion clinic upstairs".  Again, when asked for
21     evidence, I never got an acknowledgement to my request. 
22     That is brutal.
23  126                  My initial expression of concern was
24     July 15, 1998.  My inquiry has turned into a tortuous
25     mess, eventually landing on the desk of Perrin Beatty,
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                             22

 1     President and CEO of CBC.
 2  127                  The last action to date was a letter
 3     from my M.P. to Perrin Beatty, dated February 2, 1999,
 4     to which I have not received a reply.  This does not
 5     surprise me.
 6  128                  To M.P. Jim Karygiannis' February 2nd
 7     letter was attached my analysis of the contents of an
 8     earlier response by Mr. Beatty.  From my own
 9     professional experience, it is difficult to imagine how
10     Mr. Beatty's letter could be more factually in error
11     than it was.
12  129                  Copies of the correspondence is
13     submitted for your perusal.
14  130                  The end result that nobody at CBC has
15     produced one shred of verifiable data to support the
16     contention or inference made in the program to which I
17     objected -- this in spite of providing the name and
18     telephone number of the detective to the ombudsman;
19     also in spite of a comprehensive list of this century's
20     troubles listed on two full pages of The Toronto Star
21     under the heading "The World at War", pages A12 and
22     A13, Wednesday, November 11, 1998.
23  131                  These are the two pages.  You can see
24     that it is pretty comprehensive.
25  132                  So if there was evidence, there will
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 1     be ample evidence there.
 2  133                  Essentially, that is denial anything
 3     misleading occurred.  How can anyone deal with that?
 4  134                  Three months after my initial
 5     inquiry, CBC staff replied, completely ignoring
 6     Ms Gardner's "so much of the trouble in our world
 7     today".  Then the ombudsman intervened, without being
 8     asked, and did not convince me that he had more
 9     objectivity or knowledge of the issue.  My initial e-
10     mail was "lost in the inundation of mail we received
11     last season".
12  135                  I was told staff were on holiday,
13     that there was a staff shortage.  The whole thing is a
14     long, sorry and sordid tale which is well-documented.
15  136                  Madame François Bertrand is quoted in
16     The Globe and Mail of Saturday, December 19, 1998:
17                            "People will tell us why CBC is
18                            so important in their own neck
19                            of the woods."  (As read)
20  137                  My response is:  CBC TV is not
21     important.  In fact, I am hearing again and again: 
22     "Who watches TV?"
23  138                  One in particular was quite a well-
24     known and prominent figure.
25  139                  CBC TV's problems seem to be so
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                             24

 1     ingrained from top to bottom, no wonder The Globe
 2     commented "this deepened moral problems".  No wonder
 3     there are strikes.
 4  140                  After what I have gone through and
 5     before I could support the continuance of CBC TV, I
 6     would need to be rigorously convinced that the person
 7     appointed to replace Mr. Beatty was honest and
 8     determined to bring integrity to a corporation in dire
 9     need of credible leadership, quite likely at many
10     levels.
11  141                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Does that complete
12     your comments?
13  142                  MR. HOGG:  Thank you very much indeed
14     for giving us this opportunity of bringing these
15     concerns before you.  I am quite surprised that my
16     concerns parallel very clearly the concerns that were
17     enunciated earlier.
18  143                  I would be happy to leave a copy of
19     my presentation.
20  144                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  We would appreciate
21     that, Mr. Hogg.  Thank you very much for coming from
22     Toronto.
23  145                  Very quickly for those who arrived
24     after our start, our lack of questions does not denote
25     on our part a lack of interest.  As I said previously,
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                             25

 1     it is important that we hear everyone here today;
 2     therefore, we are not asking questions.
 3  146                  Please don't think of that as lack of
 4     interest.
 5  147                  Mr. Lahay.
 6                                                        1335
 7  148                  MR. LAHAY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
 8  149                  Also a comment for those of you who
 9     are here today but have not registered and do not wish
10     to give a presentation that there are forms outside of
11     the room for your comments.  You can fill those out,
12     and certainly the Commission would be pleased to
13     receive them.
14  150                  Mr. Paul Sauvé.  Monsieur Sauvé, s'il
15     vous plaît.
16     PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
17  151                  M. SAUVÉ:  Oui, bonjour.  Bonjour,
18     Madame la Présidente.  Paul Sauvé.  Merci de m'écouter
19     pour quelques minutes.  Moi, ce n'est pas une
20     présentation très philosophique mais plutôt
21     personnelle.
22  152                  Je m'appelle Paul Sauvé.  Je suis
23     marié avec Claire, ma femme de trente-neuf ans.  Nous
24     avons 16 enfants, 10 petits-enfants.  Ma racine
25     canadienne du côté de ma mère recule jusqu'à 1663 et du
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                             26

 1     côté du mon père, à 1671.  Alors, il est impossible
 2     pour moi de décrire comment je me sens comme Canadien
 3     mais je n'ai pas ailleurs à aller.  Alors, après 300
 4     ans, il faut que je reste ici.
 5  153                  Je suis peut-être un peu présomptueux
 6     de croire que je pourrais avoir un effet sur votre
 7     décision mais je crois que j'ai une dette à mes
 8     ancêtres et à mes enfants d'au moins donner mon
 9     opinion.
10  154                  Chaque génération doit laisser à la
11     prochaine génération un monde un peu meilleur que comme
12     nous l'avons reçu.  Il me semble que de plus en plus,
13     Radio-Canada s'éloigne de nous dans le nord et semble
14     vouloir centraliser plutôt qu'améliorer les services
15     régionaux où on trouve les vrais besoins de Canadiens
16     comme moi.
17  155                  Maintenant, je m'excuse, mais je vais
18     changer en anglais parce que je veux faire référence à
19     un texte qui a été préparé par Guylaine Saucier et j'ai
20     beaucoup de difficulté à traduire.  Alors, quand je
21     pense en anglais, il faut que je parle en anglais;
22     quand je pense en français, il faut que je parle en
23     français.  Alors, je m'excuse.
24  156                  In a recent edition of the Edmonton
25     Journal, I cut out an article that appeared in the
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                             27

 1     editorial pages.  It was written, at least attributed,
 2     to Guylaine Saucier, the Chairperson of the Board of
 3     Canadian Broadcasting Corporation.
 4  157                  I agree totally with what she is
 5     saying, yet it frustrates me to no end.  If what
 6     appears in this article is what she and the board
 7     believe, why did they not implement what they believe
 8     before now?
 9                            "The CBC/Radio-Canada should be,
10                            for a publicly funded
11                            institution, in the business of
12                            reinforcing and transmitting
13                            Canadian culture"  (As read)
14  158                  Writes Ms Saucier.
15                            "There is a danger that the
16                            shareholders of CBC, citizens
17                            from every region and walk of
18                            life, may increasingly disengage
19                            themselves from the discussion. 
20                            They may come to view the
21                            fundamental issues, such as
22                            whether the CBC's mandate
23                            continues to be relevant and
24                            worthy of their support as
25                            taxpayers."  (As read)
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 1  159                  I must tell you that the biggest
 2     ovation that I heard at the Scott Tournament of Hearts,
 3     the Canadian Curling Championships for Women in
 4     Charlottetown last week, was when it was announced that
 5     the CBC was not going to televise the finals and the
 6     semi-finals. 
 7  160                  That hurts.  Why should all the
 8     taxpayers be so happy that their network is not going
 9     to televise and that it is going to be left to a
10     private network?  It really is something that I didn't
11     like very much.
12  161                  I am here to "kick tires", as was
13     invited by Mme Saucier.  We differ in definition, not
14     on strategic plan.  How do you kick tires of someone so
15     big and so expensive?  I am sure others will suggest
16     areas of improvement.  I have decided to emphasize
17     northern Ontario, regional programming and sports.
18  162                  The reason I am saying sports is
19     because I was prompted to come here by a comment made
20     by one of the members of the CRTC who said -- and I
21     don't have the name -- there's too much sports on CBC.
22  163                  I hope Ms Saucier forgives me for
23     changing the order of her five commitments, because
24     being relevant and accountable take care of themselves
25     if you meet your objectives.
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                             29

 1  164                  Please forgive me for favouring, as I
 2     see it a little differently than what seems to be the
 3     definition of culture as the CBC/Radio-Canada sees it
 4     now.
 5  165                  To me, culture is what is
 6     historically Canadian; how we are identified by the
 7     rest of the world.  Trying to be anything else is to be
 8     ashamed of what we are.
 9  166                  Relevant:  What is relevant?  Does it
10     mean that radio should have a meaning to the people it
11     serves?  I understand there is a CBC Two.  What is
12     that?  What does it air?
13  167                  I think there is even a French Radio-
14     Canada Two, or another network.
15  168                  The moose and I up north never hear
16     it.  We have never heard it, and I don't think we will
17     ever hear it, unless there are changes.
18  169                  That must be a service for the
19     culturally deprived southern Ontario and Montreal area. 
20     After all, they don't have any culture down there. 
21     They could have Radio Two send us all the museums and
22     everything else there is there.
23  170                  Is not being relevant providing
24     regional service?  To Radio-Canada, Montreal area,
25     culture is what the north needs.  I don't think so. 
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                             30

 1     Why not be relevant and give us the regional services
 2     that are needed up north?
 3  171                  Why is every thought centred around
 4     Toronto and Montreal?  Be relevant and expand
 5     drastically regional services.
 6  172                  To nurture Canadian culture:  What is
 7     more Canadian, Bach and Beethoven or Natalie McMaster
 8     and Chuck Labelle?  The CBC/Radio-Canada has probably
 9     the most extensive symphony library in Canada, and
10     there is nothing wrong with that.  Is that more
11     Canadian than hockey?
12  173                  Who is doing Canadian French country
13     music in northern Ontario?  No one.
14  174                  Why take away old time fiddling music
15     of Canadian artists?  If some CBC programming is
16     important to some, why is it not then as important for
17     other music that is also Canadian?
18  175                  I spent many hours travelling in
19     northern Ontario listening to René Le Cavalier and
20     hockey, because my work for 28 years was travelling all
21     of northern Ontario and listening to René Le Cavalier
22     in hockey.  Now hockey is only important around
23     Montreal.  We don't have any hockey on radio up in
24     northern Ontario.
25  176                  We realize that someone else bought
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                             31

 1     the rights to the Montreal Canadian games, but can't
 2     the CBC/Radio-Canada cooperate and provide a service
 3     for the rest of Canada by maybe buying the rights for
 4     the rest of Canada?
 5  177                  One aspect of Canadian life that tied
 6     this country together when I was growing up was Foster
 7     Hewitt's "Hello Canada and hockey fans" in Newfoundland
 8     and in the United States.
 9  178                  Une autre chanson, "Mon pays c'est
10     l'hiver" par Gilles Vigneault and hockey are being a
11     big part of Canada.  Now the Toronto Star in
12     yesterday's issue carried an article entitled "Curling
13     and TV".  How very Canadian.  Nowhere else in the world
14     would curling happen on television.
15  179                  If you would have witnessed the briar
16     that just completed, there were more people looking at
17     the final games there than there was looking at the
18     Stanley Cup Finals.
19  180                  I was very frustrated when I heard a
20     CRTC member ask:  "Do we have too much sports on
21     CBC/Radio-Canada?"
22  181                  What sports on radio?  I wish there
23     was some to cut.  There is no sports on radio.
24  182                  Who televised the Canada Winter Games
25     this year from Newfoundland?  May I emphasize that it
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                             32

 1     was the "Canada Winter Games", where only Canadians who
 2     could afford to pay a premium, where the service is
 3     available, could watch their children and classmates
 4     participate.  Is this reaching out to the young?
 5  183                  The CBC/Radio-Canada wants to reach
 6     out to the young.  Is there a better way to reach out
 7     to the young than with other young people?
 8  184                  Is the CBC/Radio-Canada willing to
 9     let NBC do the profiles of Canadian athletes at the
10     next Olympics?  No one can follow our athletes better
11     than the CBC/Radio-Canada without worry about making
12     money at doing it.
13  185                  Basketball, which was invented by a
14     Canadian, is now an American sport.  Where have the
15     North Zip(ph) gone?  Where are the Jets?  How long have
16     the Oilers, the Canucks, the Senators, the  Flames --
17     yes, and even the Montreal Canadiens -- how much life
18     is left in them?
19  186                  What about the Expos, Canadian
20     football?  All have a better chance of survival with
21     exposure.
22  187                  CBC/Radio-Canada television and radio
23     have a role to play in this.  Indirectly, they could
24     help save these franchises by buying the rights and
25     broadcasting the games all across the country, and
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 1     maybe having them become popular.
 2  188                  Reaching out to young audiences: 
 3     This really worries me.  Are we talking for all of
 4     Canada or again for the culturally-deprived large
 5     cities of the country?
 6  189                  To be very cynical, I believe that
 7     this issue is more apple pie than reality here in
 8     northern Ontario.
 9  190                  Connect to Canadians:  Does connect
10     mean give them what is good for them, not what is
11     needed or what they want?  Canada is a vast country,
12     and in order to connect it must be done regionally. 
13     Only regionally can CBC/Radio-Canada reflect and
14     provide the services relevant to Canadians like myself.
15  191                  To summarize, in order to connect to
16     this Canadian CBC/Radio-Canada must become regionally
17     relevant; re-instate radio broadcasts of hockey games
18     for us and the moose up here; expand greatly the
19     playing of Canadian old time music, both French and
20     English, in northern Ontario and the rest of Canada.
21  192                  I think you will hear that more often
22     in some other areas also.
23  193                  Continue the good coverage of the
24     Olympics, which is the best, no matter how you do.  You
25     can play the channels, but the Olympics is covered the
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                             34

 1     best by the CBC.
 2  194                  Become a big player in professional
 3     sports of this country.  Look at how the United States
 4     promote and even create icons around their professional
 5     sports teams.
 6  195                  Merci beaucoup de m'avoir écouté et
 7     j'espère que vos décisions seront fructueuses pour tous
 8     les Canadiens.
 9  196                  LA PRÉSIDENTE:  Merci beaucoup,
10     Monsieur Sauvé.  Thank you, Mr. Sauvé, for your
11     remarks.
12  197                  We will go on to our next presenter.
13                                                        1345
14  198                  MR. LAHAY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
15  199                  Mrs. Betty Cajanek, please.
16     PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
17  200                  MRS. CAJANEK:  Thank you.  At this
18     time CBC appears to be affected by a lack of vision. 
19     It is not only the technicians' strike that has
20     disrupted programming; our national broadcaster seems
21     to be set adrift.  Often there is an excellent program
22     followed by a sleeper.
23  201                  CBC needs to reshape itself and
24     decide its mandate.  Will it be a public national
25     broadcaster, or will it try to compete with television
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                             35

 1     sitcoms?  CBC is not marketing itself when it is
 2     involved in consistent squabbling over its purpose.  In
 3     an increasingly competitive consumer environment, CBC
 4     needs to build a strong long-term marketing image in
 5     order to compete.
 6  202                  Perhaps marketing research and
 7     business planning could be carried out at reasonable
 8     cost through one of the university by upper year
 9     commerce students, to determine the mission of the CBC
10     and how its resources could best be used.
11  203                  I believe a poll must be done to
12     establish who listens or watches CBC.  The age of the
13     listener may be critical.  For example, the variety of
14     music on radio is deplorable to a middle-aged person
15     like myself.  Outside of "Finkelson's(ph) Forty-Fives"
16     and a smattering of popular classical and semi-
17     classical music.  In tough times, people need happy
18     music.
19  204                  Furthermore, people want and respect
20     the quality programming CBC has customarily produced. 
21     To remain competitive, a poll should be taken every 15
22     years to re-assess what programming the public desires.
23  205                  On the eve of the new millennium, the
24     CBC, along with the world, is at a crossroads of
25     change.  This new technology, a new generation of
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 1     listeners, and less money.  Politicians are encouraging
 2     the CBC to privatize, yet the CBC would lose its
 3     independence, its innovation and its will to produce
 4     quality programming if it privatized.
 5  206                  Like all businesses today, the CBC
 6     must learn to manage its affairs more economically. 
 7     They must cut top-heavy management.  Surely there are
 8     other ways to support public broadcasting besides
 9     privatization or advertising.  Could we possibly look
10     to other countries to learn from their example? 
11     Possibly funds could be acquired by applying a
12     licensing fee to all televisions and radios that are
13     sold.
14  207                  In reporting the news, CBC provides
15     accurate, up-to-date information on a regional and a
16     national level.  This is important to Canadians who
17     often hear news about their employer from the radio
18     before an announcement is made on the job.
19  208                  CBC needs to relink with the little
20     guy in Canada and discuss issues affecting the ordinary
21     Canadian.  This can only be done by delving into the
22     diverse regions of the country and touching on the
23     daily experiences and problems of people.
24  209                  For example, until recently, I
25     believed Toronto was the only place in Toronto to find
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 1     a job.  However, word of mouth advises Kitchener and
 2     Cambridge are also booming.  We should know why they
 3     are booming and what kind of jobs are available in
 4     order to better advise our children.
 5  210                  In addition, rural areas and
 6     settlements in the north rely on CBC to bring culture
 7     and Canadian identity to their homes.  However, CBC
 8     will be facing even greater competition as satellite
 9     dishes come down in price, enabling most people to tune
10     in to specialty channels, such as TSN and A&E. 
11  211                  To compete, CBC must be distinct.  It
12     must set priorities.  It cannot try to serve everyone. 
13     We should be pursuing our nationalism through the
14     regions by hearing views from across the country.
15  212                  Personally, I listen to CBC all day,
16     every day, to keep current on national and regional
17     events and to listen to various issues.  My hands may
18     be busy, but my mind is stimulated by the issues
19     presented.  However, I do think parts of radio can be
20     done better, and cheaper.
21  213                  "Dead Dog Cafe" should be replaced by
22     stories from native history, positive information that
23     is taking place in the native community.  In fact, it
24     is high time a truer Canadian history was told, such as
25     the French and native version.  I realize this is a
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                             38

 1     huge undertaking, but perhaps it could be done in
 2     conjunction with one of the universities, while we are
 3     still young enough to remember our history.
 4  214                  This history could possibly be sold
 5     to the educational system, or could replace
 6     "Richardson's Round-up", which is supposed to be a
 7     program on the arts and culture.
 8  215                  Should the Canadian history
 9     undertaking not be feasible, I would replace
10     "Richardson" with Lister Sinclair's "Excellent Ideas"
11     or some of the overnight programming, of which I seldom
12     get to hear because by 8 o'clock most of us have
13     switched on the television.
14  216                  Television specialty channels are
15     also popular in our home.  To watch tennis, golf or
16     curling, TSN is a necessity -- taped or live --
17     followed closely by A&E and CBC Newsworld.  I think you
18     would made better use of "Undercurrents" and Pamela
19     Wallin at an earlier time, 7:00 or 8:00 p.m., before we
20     are too tired to watch these shows.
21  217                  Yes, CBC Canadians are listening. 
22     But please remember, most of us have been battling job
23     cuts and wage freezes since the early 1970s.  We are
24     faced with the same technological changes and federal
25     and provincial downloading that you are facing.  We are
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 1     tired and a little slow to react, but we are listening.
 2  218                  A mature country needs a national
 3     radio system that is pure, without advertising.  To
 4     unite Canada, citizens must be aware of views and
 5     values from across the country.  This is how we learn
 6     about each other and how we keep our country strong.
 7  219                  Living next to the big elephant, the
 8     United States, it is imperative that we maintain
 9     control of our culture through the CBC.  Otherwise, we
10     will become that insignificant other; or worse, part of
11     the U.S.A.
12  220                  Thank you.
13  221                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much
14     for your remarks.
15  222                  I just have one point of
16     clarification.
17  223                  Your first comment was about a
18     marketing image on the long term.  Was that for radio
19     and television?
20  224                  MRS. CAJANEK:  Yes.
21  225                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
22     much.
23                                                        1353
24  226                  MR. LAHAY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
25  227                  Tom Gerry, please.
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 1     PRESENTATION - PRÉSENTATION
 2  228                  MR. GERRY:  Thank you.  I am here to
 3     speak as a member of the public.  I am a parent, and I
 4     am a university professor.  What I have to say will
 5     most directly be about the radio programming, from
 6     those points of view.
 7  229                  I listen to the CBC as often as I
 8     can.  I watch a little bit of the CBC TV occasionally. 
 9     I have noticed -- and one of the main reasons that I
10     came today -- that the CBC is really struggling with
11     what they are trying to do.  I feel fairly outraged by
12     that, because I value it so highly.
13  230                  I am going to talk a bit about
14     regional programming.  I think all three, regional,
15     national and local programming are extremely important,
16     and I would like to suggest one of the images that
17     maybe we should start using when we think of the CBC. 
18     We generally think of it as the voice or the image of
19     Canada, but I would like to also introduce the idea
20     that the CBC is also the ears of Canada and the eyes of
21     Canada. 
22  231                  I depend on the CBC for learning
23     mainly about issues and events in other parts of the
24     world, in other parts of the country, and in my region
25     and city.
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 1  232                  I would like to make a couple of
 2     suggestions, not necessarily specifically changes but
 3     perhaps additions and so on.
 4  233                  Regarding local programming, it has
 5     been cut back here.  We have lived through what it
 6     would be like, to a certain extent, not to have the CBC
 7     because it has really been noticeably attenuated.  That
 8     brings home to us just how important the kind of local
 9     coverage that the CBC used to be able to do is.
10  234                  We still have our morning and
11     afternoon programs, which are from Sudbury, and the
12     people there do a valiant job.  But the region that
13     they are covering is incredibly large and they need
14     help to carry on.
15  235                  One of the things that I mostly
16     notice, being at the university, is the lack of sports
17     coverage of amateur sports.  This is again the radio
18     largely but it is also true of TV.  The university and
19     the local amateur sports are basically ignored, and I
20     find that peculiar.
21  236                  The other thing I have noticed is
22     that there are a lot of resources within the CBC that I
23     think are not utilized.  With the labour dispute going
24     on right now, some of those things have become clear in
25     the scramble for programming, and things are being
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 1     rebroadcast.  Also, people in the CBC are making use of
 2     programs made in the other part of the country, and
 3     also we don't hear those.  They are fascinating.
 4  237                  What I am saying is that sometimes
 5     local programming is regarded as somewhat trivial.  I
 6     have heard that complaint.  I don't think there is any
 7     necessity for the CBC to be accused of that, partly
 8     because they have resources to bring stories from other
 9     parts of the country to people in different regions. 
10     And they could do more of that.
11  238                  The other thing is this overnight
12     programming on CBC radio where basically news and
13     cultural affairs from other broadcasting systems are
14     rebroadcast, I had a thought regarding the television
15     network.
16  239                  Again, I am not a cable subscriber,
17     so I am only talking of what I can receive with an
18     aerial.  That kind of format is really important and
19     useful.  If that were extended to television, I think
20     there could be very useful programming created that
21     way, and again without a lot of new resources being
22     needed.
23  240                  That is to elaborate on my thought
24     that CBC is Canadians' ears and eyes, as well as our
25     image.
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 1  241                  As a university professor, I rely on
 2     the CBC, several programs in particular, because I am
 3     involved in Canadian studies, Canadian literature.  The
 4     programs are invaluable, not just on the basis of
 5     content but because many of the programs involve fine
 6     writing.  To listen to the way those programs are
 7     written and presented is an excellent teaching tool, is
 8     an excellent lesson for students in terms of
 9     composition of their own projects.
10  242                  Again with young people -- I would
11     like to switch a bit to my own daughter, who is 12, and
12     her friends.  She is a pretty normal young adolescent. 
13     She listens to the CBC, probably because I listen to
14     the CBC and my wife listens to the CBC.  Anyway, she is
15     now a fan.
16  243                  One day she commented to me -- I
17     guess it was at 6:30 -- that "As it Happens" is her
18     favourite program.  I said:  "Why is that?"  And she
19     said:  "Well, I really like the stories."
20  244                  That taught me a number of things
21     about young people.  One of them is that programming
22     especially created for young people is not always
23     necessary.  I thought of how kids like to listen in on
24     adult conversations.  I think that is a very important
25     thing.
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 1  245                  There are all kinds of spinoffs from
 2     her interest in the CBC.  She listens to more than "As
 3     it Happens".  In fact, the things she hears and hears
 4     us talking about -- and she gets involved in the
 5     conversations -- lead to expansion of all kinds of
 6     things.  So it becomes this wonderful teaching
 7     opportunity.
 8  246                  So another thing that the CBC does
 9     well, and should continue to do, is to spark
10     conversations among people so that it doesn't just end
11     when you turn off the television or turn off the radio;
12     that there is a continuation.
13  247                  Finally, I want to say a couple of
14     things about the special role of the CBC.  This really,
15     as it stands, does not apply to the television aspect
16     of it, as far as I can judge, to a great extent,
17     although I do depend, as I said, on CBC TV for some
18     news importing and comedy shows.
19  248                  I think the special role of the CBC,
20     besides all the details of programming, is an approach.
21     Really, it is a question of values.  I was trying to
22     sum it up in one word, and I wrote down a few words. 
23     One is critical; another is trustworthy; another is
24     intelligent; and serious.
25  249                  I think the fact that the radio has
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 1     remained non-commercial is one of the key reasons why
 2     the CBC can uphold those kinds of values and that we,
 3     as Canadians, can trust it to give a critical view.
 4  250                  Those are my thoughts.
 5  251                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
 6     Gerry, for joining us today.
 7  252                  We will continue.  As we said
 8     earlier, we are proceeding with the first ten
 9     registered participants and then we will probably take
10     a break.
11  253                  We will proceed now with No. 9.  Is
12     that correct?
13  254                  MR. LAHAY:  Mr. Charlie Smith.
14  255                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  No. 8.
15                                                        1400
16  256                  MR. LAHAY:  Mr. Smith.
17     PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
18  257                  MR. SMITH:  My name is Charlie Smith. 
19     I am from Massey.  I am a farmer and I write a bit.
20  258                  CBC is one of the foundations of my
21     life.  I am on a party line so I can't use the Net. 
22     That doesn't matter because I have CBC.  The radio is
23     always on.  It wakes me in the morning.  It is CBC in
24     my wife's car; it is CBC in my farm truck.
25  259                  When it is summer and the days are
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 1     long, I eat breakfast before the sun is up and I listen
 2     to Deutschvella(ph), Australia, Holland and Radio
 3     France.  I hear the world on my little hill, thanks to
 4     CBC.  In the winter, when it is the nights that are
 5     long and my cows are calving in the cold and I sit up
 6     half the night to watch for calves, it is CBC and me.
 7  260                  It is northern Ontario CBC that tells
 8     me what is going on in my community.  It is through the
 9     radio that the wind of the nation blows, and it is CBC
10     that gives me a window on the world.
11  261                  I am an information junkie.  I am a
12     wordsmith.  It is CBC that gives me a voice.
13  262                  I want you to think, when there is a
14     push in some far place, when the junta takes control
15     and the rebels storm the capital, what is the first
16     thing they take over?  The radio stations.
17  263                  I am not an executive type, but I am
18     a farmer and I know you can't starve a profit out of
19     anything.  I know there are sacred trusts:  the land,
20     honour and communication.  Are we throttling
21     communication?  Is it necessary to make wealth out of
22     the nation's voice?  Is this a real priority?
23  264                  As a people we care.  We care enough
24     to send aid, aircraft, ships and troops halfway around
25     the world.  We stick our cold noses into other people's
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 1     business and never mind the cost.  But we can't afford
 2     to hear our own voices bouncing back out of the
 3     darkness.  Shame!
 4  265                  You might think that I am just one
 5     voice, but there are lots of people like me.  We here
 6     are just the yappy peaks of the silent iceberg.  It is
 7     rally the listeners who shape the land.  We hear, we
 8     think, we speak.  If you think it is in the nation's
 9     best interest to restrict our ears, then we will
10     wonder:  What is the agenda?
11  266                  So far I have spoken of the radio. 
12     The radio is most important to me.  Why?  Because they
13     have already screwed up CBC TV.  I am disenchanted with
14     it.  It has become little more than another television
15     station, full of ads trying to sell me things I don't
16     need.
17  267                  I only get two television stations
18     with any regularity; and like I said, I am an
19     information junkie.  I find myself watching CTV more of
20     the time.  Oh, there are some very good CBC programs. 
21     I need not list them; we all know what they are.  But
22     CBC has gotten way too commercial.
23  268                  When the hockey playoffs are on, they
24     even pre-empt the news.  My God, the news.  Let the
25     private broadcaster have professional sports.
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 1  269                  Speaking of the news, why in the name
 2     of goodness is there no CBC local news?  Why do I have
 3     to count on Baton Broadcasting -- that is MCTV -- for
 4     local televised events?  They do a very good job, but
 5     where is CBC?  They have the expertise to do a dandy
 6     job on radio.  Why can't they do something similar on
 7     television?  Another point of view would be refreshing.
 8  270                  CBC television goes off the air
 9     pretty early around here.  Couldn't the Parliamentary
10     Question Period be shown then?  What could that cost? 
11     Hell, we don't even need a commentator.  We can think.
12     --- Laughter / Rires
13  271                  Sports -- I want to talk about
14     sports.  I mentioned hockey, but I am not done bitching
15     about sports.
16  272                  I like sports, but they show the
17     wrong ones most of the time.  Hunting season comes to
18     the north.  It is the major seasonal event.  It is not
19     on television.  There is a little interview show by the
20     Hunters and Anglers Organization, and that's it.
21  273                  Did you ever see how Michigan
22     television stations cover hunting?  Wow!  We could
23     learn a thing or two there.
24  274                  Hunting might be a bit politically
25     incorrect, but that is partially CBC's fault.  They
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 1     broadcasting Disneyesque anti-hunting nonsense and
 2     never show the real thing.  In this area, there are
 3     more hunters than there are curlers, hockey players and
 4     figure skaters combined.  There are 1.25 million
 5     outdoor cards sold in Ontario alone.
 6  275                  The Canadian Winter Games were on.  I
 7     saw none of it.  None of it!  Our winter games were not
 8     on.  Maybe they have forgotten what CBC stands for. 
 9     Did you watch the last Olympics, winter or summer? 
10     Canadians did very well at some sports -- shooting, for
11     instance.  We got to see lots of people on skates.  We
12     didn't do that good on ice.
13  276                  But I don't recall seeing some
14     athletes, not even getting their medals.  Gold is gold.
15  277                  There were Canadians winning gold. 
16     Our national anthem, our flag proudly raised, the
17     pinnacle of some proud Canadian's life-long effort. 
18     But CBC chose to show someone losing at something more
19     popular.
20  278                  That is the problem.
21     Commercialization is destroying CBC TV.  The bottom
22     line shouldn't be the almighty buck.  The mandate
23     should be to enlighten, to educate, to unite; to
24     showcase Canadian performers, Canadian athletes,
25     Canadian interests of all types.
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 1  279                  CBC radio still hangs on as a
 2     national voice, but CBC TV is the eyes and the eyes are
 3     half blind.  The eyes are full of dollar signs.  The
 4     eyes are focused on the lowest common denominator. 
 5     That is a shame, and it's up to you to fix it.
 6  280                  Thank you.
 7  281                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
 8     Smith.
 9  282                  Where did you say your farm is again?
10  283                  MR. SMITH:  Massey.
11  284                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
12                                                        1407
13  285                  MR. LAHAY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
14  286                  Daryl Shandro.
15     PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
16  287                  MS SHANDRO:  I have lived in Sudbury
17     now for about seven years, and I am one of what I
18     consider to be a growing number of economically
19     displaced Canadians.  I am an Atlantic Canadian.  Most
20     of us are displaced these days.  We spend most of our
21     working lives in a series of different communities
22     across the country.
23  288                  As more and more Canadians are forced
24     to move around the country for employment purposes, I
25     believe the CBC's mandate is becoming more and more
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 1     important; that is, allowing and encouraging Canadians
 2     to know about and communicate with each other.
 3  289                  As well as that, I think that more
 4     recently it has become more common that it keeps people
 5     in touch with their home communities, their historic
 6     communities, as well as introducing them to their
 7     prospective communities.
 8  290                  I don't think that most people here
 9     or in Nova Scotia would know that there is a housing
10     crisis in Calgary if it wasn't for the CBC.  I don't
11     think many of us would know how to make decisions on
12     things like the relevance of the turbot wars a few
13     years ago, and things like that, living here, or the
14     arguments over seal quotas, if it wasn't for the CBC.
15  291                  I am going to speak mainly about CBC 
16     Radio One, because that is what I listen to.  We don't
17     have Radio Two here.  A few people have already griped
18     about that, and I will add my name to that list.  I
19     think that should be a national service, and it isn't.
20  292                  Here we have weekly provincial and
21     regional reports that are broadcast nationally.  They
22     provide, in my opinion, more stories in more depth than
23     the national newspapers and all of the flagship news
24     programs on television combined, and that is because
25     they are locally oriented.
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 1  293                  Many of them talk about far-flung
 2     outposts of the nation.  I have lived in some of them,
 3     so I am very interested in what is happening in places
 4     like Whitehorse, Corner Brook and St. John's.
 5  294                  I believe that the recent cuts over
 6     the last maybe ten years have really taken a bite out
 7     of the type of regional programming that I depend on to
 8     keep in touch with different places that I have lived
 9     in.  It really hurt when the noon programs were lost. 
10     And they have been lost pretty well right across the
11     country, the regional noon programs.
12  295                  We have fewer story-tellers and we
13     have fewer stories, and this really does hurt people
14     trying to keep in touch with other parts of the
15     country.
16  296                  There have been calls to introduce --
17     and I have heard these calls -- some amount of
18     commercial interests and advertising to different, at
19     this point, non-commercial programming, like Radio One. 
20     I think, as with the television programming, that would
21     be an enormous mistake.  For me, it is a matter of
22     journalistic quality.  There are well-known
23     international scholars like Noam Tronsky(ph), who have
24     attributed our access to better news in Canada to the
25     existence of our national broadcaster.
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 1  297                  I would think that for those of us
 2     who are real news junkies and read everything available
 3     and listen to whatever we can there is a noticeable
 4     difference between the quality and the depth of the
 5     journalism between CBC and your 90-second blurb that
 6     you are going to get on other radio channels and that
 7     you are going to get on national TV.  They now only
 8     cover most of -- even the CBC's "National" program will
 9     cover only six or seven stories; where you may have
10     depth, you just don't have the numbers of stories from
11     different places.
12  298                  Economic restructuring in Canada
13     hasn't just made us move all over the place; I think it
14     has complicated the job of responsible journalism.  I
15     think it is really important that the CBC -- because
16     the CBC is a link and it helps us make political
17     decisions and it has the mandate.  I believe it alone
18     has the mandate to do that, to tell us what we should
19     think about cod quotas, whether we should care about
20     salmon in British Columbia, and the new government in
21     Nunavut coming in.
22  299                  Because the restructuring in Canada
23     has caused universities and a number of different
24     institutions to start asking for more corporate
25     funding, I think it is important that when there is a
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 1     release of a study or of information, that along with
 2     it the public broadcaster should be required to at
 3     least divulge the nature of the funding that underlies
 4     the information that is being given.  If there is an
 5     interest that is not publicly known on the part of the
 6     experts that they are interviewing, or the group that
 7     is releasing the study, that should be made public as
 8     well.
 9  300                  I would think if that can't be, then
10     the story should not air, regardless of how much you
11     don't like CTV or someone else to air it first.  I
12     think it really hurts us to have certain studies being
13     reported as somehow disinterested objective fact when
14     they are released by the Fraser Institute or the C.D.
15     Howe Institute, or it is a study released by Novo
16     Pharmaceuticals, and the experts are drawn from people
17     who may be on the boards of these various institutions.
18  301                  Either the nature of the funding or
19     the actual funders, if there are very few and they are
20     very large and influential, should be divulged at the
21     same time as the research results.
22  302                  In places like Sudbury, I think that
23     is really important.  We don't live in Toronto.  For
24     me, that is important because we don't have the kind of
25     access to a lot of media that some people in the
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 1     country do.  Our alternative media, alternative to the
 2     CBC -- because I think of them as the other guys -- as
 3     far as radio goes, are almost all owned by the same
 4     company here in town.  Our English "daily" has been
 5     taken over by Conrad Black.
 6  303                  Since then, a lot of the journalism
 7     and some of the local content, and things like that,
 8     while I am not sure about bias, certainly it has become
 9     much more uniform.  There are fewer voices.  There is a
10     much more narrow range for you to choose from, as far
11     as views.
12  304                  I think it is perhaps time for us to
13     think about adding to the national mandate and being
14     quite specific about CBC having some kind of role in
15     regional programming.  I think that that would help do
16     two things.  One, it would give us all an excuse to ask
17     for please, please more funding so that our local
18     people can do their job better to send stories about us
19     to other Canadians.  It would also mean that we would
20     be able to have the kind of local coverage that we
21     need.
22  305                  I think people in PEI were squawking
23     about this; that in some cases, really you don't have a
24     lot of good alternatives at your command, depending on
25     where you live in Canada, to the CBC.  So with any loss
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 1     of local programming, you really have lost an
 2     incredibly valuable link to your community.
 3  306                  If there is one other thing on the
 4     wish list, my kids -- my mother lives in Edmonton, and
 5     I have an aunt in Grand Falls, Newfoundland.  My family
 6     is kind of spread all over God's green earth.
 7  307                  My children -- I have some teenagers
 8     and some little folks -- really believe that --
 9  308                  There has been some noise about them
10     needing to get some youth involved in listening to the
11     programs.  My kids listen to the local university
12     channel for user-friendly youth-friendly alternative
13     music.  I think that while we have a pop music show
14     that airs nationally, it doesn't actually cover very
15     much of that kind of thing, which is why my kids feel
16     that they have to go to the Laurentian University
17     channel.
18  309                  We may actually lose the Laurentian
19     University channel, and it's the only one that is ever
20     on the dial other than CBC.  It would be nice, if they
21     are going to look at youth, for them to not just look
22     at -- they do listen to "Between the Covers", but they
23     like music.  Music is extremely important to these
24     characters.  So it would be very good to have some of
25     our music programming for them -- at least they think
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 1     it would.  I'm not too sure.
 2  310                  It is my understanding that there are
 3     a number of new services sort of on the table.  I
 4     really believe that the CRTC should urge the CBC to
 5     consider expanding Radio Two to becoming a truly
 6     national program; that if indeed there is going to be
 7     another radio programming available -- they want a new
 8     channel.  I believe, for French, a French news radio
 9     channel.  But their proposal at this point is something
10     like Ottawa, Moncton and Montreal.  I don't believe
11     they should be bringing in new programs that don't go
12     across the nation, that are not universally accessible.
13  311                  To me, to be proposing on-line
14     services before you actually give francophone Canadians
15     a national news service on the radio that goes right
16     across the country, seems a little absurd.
17  312                  It is my understanding -- and I could
18     be wrong; perhaps things have gone crazy since the last
19     time I checked in on the numbers -- that less than 30
20     per cent of Canadians have computers.  And some of them
21     are like our friend the farmer over here who has a
22     party line.  He can't get on the Internet.  This would
23     be something that would only be available to people who
24     have computers, money for a server and don't live in
25     really far-flung rural areas.
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 1  313                  I am reasonably sure that most of us
 2     -- at least I would prefer to have Radio Two come to me
 3     so that I have some choice between my radio -- most of
 4     us can afford a radio, and a lot of us can't afford
 5     Internet and a computer -- and that they make the more
 6     universal and democratic forms available right across
 7     the country uniformly before they go tossing a bunch of
 8     money at Internet services.
 9  314                  Apart from that, I would just like to
10     say that I could not imagine my life without CBC radio. 
11     I live and die by it.  I work out of my home, and it
12     would be a great loss.  We call ourselves CBC-holics in
13     my family, and when we call each other we talk about
14     our kids, the weather and what Michael Enright said
15     this morning.
16  315                  While I am strongly in support, I am
17     really, really worried that I am going to lose my
18     public broadcaster to funding cuts; that I am going to
19     lose the things that I value most about CBC and CBC
20     radio to funding cuts.
21  316                  Thank you.
22  317                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
23     much, Ms Shandro.
24  318                  Our next presenter, please.
25                                                        1421
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 1  319                  MR. LAHAY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
 2  320                  Marian Gilmour will be the final
 3     presenter of the first ten.
 4     PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
 5  321                  MS GILMOUR:  Good afternoon.  I
 6     debated about doing this, particularly after realizing
 7     that most of the arguments have already been presented,
 8     either here today or in hearings in other parts of the
 9     country.  But here I am and wondering if in fact one
10     person can make a difference.
11  322                  My inspiration for thinking so comes
12     from that delightful senior Betty Hyde in Ottawa who
13     challenged the President of the Royal Bank over the
14     closure of a branch in her neighbourhood.  When asked
15     by a reporter what gave her the confidence that one
16     little person could make a difference, her reply was: 
17     "Certainly they can.  Have you ever been in bed with a
18     mosquito?"
19     --- Laughter / Rires
20  323                  Using the questions suggested by the
21     Commission as a guide, may I present my personal
22     position -- and it is not a commercial for the CBC.
23  324                  In my view, the CBC fulfils its role
24     as the national broadcaster.  It has done for Canada in
25     the 20th Century what the railroads did in the 19th. 
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 1     The latter opened up the country geographically and
 2     linked it physically from sea to sea.  The CBC opens
 3     our eyes, ears, minds and perhaps even our hearts to
 4     our fellow countrymen; and though a transcontinental
 5     journey by train is not as accommodating today, we have
 6     the CBC to transport us from community to community,
 7     from province to province to territory, and even
 8     beyond.
 9  325                  I will be in Cuba later this week
10     where I will be able to get CBC TV.  And how
11     gratifying, as a Canadian, it was to watch some of
12     those excellent CBC docudramas when I was recently in
13     Johannesburg, South Africa.
14  326                  Our daily lives are illuminated and
15     enriched by the opportunity to know what other
16     Canadians are doing, thinking, enduring and enjoying. 
17     I can be enlightened, amused, comforted and angered all
18     in one program.  I appreciate the mind-stretching
19     capability.
20  327                  Next question:
21                            "Should the CBC fulfil its role
22                            in a different manner in the
23                            next millennium?"
24  328                  Certainly there must be changes in
25     fulfilling its role, but not its role.  Technology is
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 1     changing, but human nature does not.  We will always --
 2     and I emphasize "always" -- need this effective
 3     unifying force in this country.
 4  329                  I am involved in our local public
 5     library, and we have agonized over the debate, books or
 6     technology, and have concluded that one complements the
 7     other rather than destroying it.  It has taken some
 8     inventive minds to deal with the situation.  I feel
 9     confident that the CBC can do likewise.
10  330                  As to how well it serves on a
11     regional basis, I am not particularly qualified to
12     comment on this because there are many regions in
13     Canada.  But I will say that here, our local CBC radio
14     manages, in my estimation, exceptionally well with its
15     resources.  I think credit goes to local staff and
16     management.
17  331                  But where is Radio Two?
18  332                  Two years ago we were very excited
19     about the prospects of having both Radio One and Two.
20     What happened?
21  333                  Is the answer that overused excuse,
22     budget cuts?  Not a good enough one for this lady. 
23     After 40 years in the classroom, I recognize "dog ate
24     my homework" explanation.
25     --- Laughter / Rires
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 1  334                  More on money later.
 2  335                  Should the CBC be different from
 3     other broadcasters?  An equivocal "yes".  The CBC is
 4     unique and therein lies its appeal, despite the
 5     increase in advertising, which harks back again to
 6     money.  I am just thankful that I have a mute button.
 7  336                  If the CBC were not different, there
 8     would be no reason for it to exist.
 9  337                  In the early 19th Century, a young
10     Joseph Howe(ph) made an impassioned plea in the courts
11     of Nova Scotia that the legacy to our children should
12     be an unfettered press.  He was referring to
13     newspapers, but the same plea could be made today on
14     behalf of the CBC.
15  338                  You ask what the differences for the
16     CBC should be.  Well, it is just that:  a media
17     designed to communicate to and with Canadian people,
18     free of commercial and political coercion.  No shackles
19     on Terry Milewsky or "Fifth Estate", please.
20  339                  There is a plethora of choice
21     provided by the private broadcasters -- an over-supply,
22     in my mind -- so why would the CBC feel compelled to
23     provide more of the same?
24  340                  I gather, too, there is concern that
25     the CBC has no audience, no constituency under 30. 
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 1     Surprise?  Of course not.
 2  341                  How many of you CBC supporters were
 3     devotees in your youth?  I don't think this is a big
 4     problem, because even if the CBC does not capture their
 5     audience until 30 or 35, they have them for the next 50
 6     years.
 7  342                  My own children, now in their
 8     thirties, are converts to CBC radio, once described
 9     only as "mother's station".  Whether it is fashion,
10     music, books, radio or TV, it is pretty difficult to
11     determine what the trends will be after "Friendly
12     Giant".
13  343                  That is where other broadcasters can,
14     among them, do the catering.
15  344                  On the topic of differences, I think
16     the CBC may already be there.  I have an American
17     sister who lives in California.  When I tease her about
18     being at the end of the rainbow, she tells me she is
19     not because there is no CBC or anything comparable
20     there.
21  345                  I spend my summers in a part of the
22     province that has a great appeal for our southern
23     neighbours.  One friend from West Virginia claims that
24     if our country offered no other attraction than having
25     the CBC, it would still draw her north each year.
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 1  346                  Another, from Boston, says that in
 2     travelling north to Canada they sense the difference in
 3     our two cultures as soon as the car radio picks up the
 4     CBC.
 5  347                  Another, from North Carolina, says
 6     that our radio is so civilized that the people who give
 7     it a voice have class.
 8  348                  My sister also tells me that those
 9     two satirical programs "This Hour" and "Air Farce"
10     would not likely last beyond one airing south of the
11     border.  I am not anti-USA, but rather like that line
12     from the Arrogant Worms:  "We don't think we are
13     better; we are just not as worse."
14  349                  I have already moved to the fourth
15     question regarding the special role that the CBC should
16     play in presenting Canadian programming.  Quite simply,
17     it should reflect our particular identity.  And I think
18     it does very well.  And there is such a thing as a
19     Canadian identity.
20  350                  I don't think that the CBC should be
21     out beating the entertainment bushes to find an Oprah,
22     a Jerry Springer or a Frantic Evangelist.  That is not
23     really us.  We are Rex Murphy people, who find that
24     Newfoundlander's patient, polite and diplomatic probing
25     of the nation's psyches to our liking.  "Ideas" and
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 1     "Tapestry" to stimulate our minds; "Radio Noon" and
 2     "Canada Today" that bring us the human interest stories
 3     on ice storms; the street people; the maple syrup
 4     industry; the Monsanto, or otherwise, saga; Lindsay
 5     McIntyre's usually disturbing investigations of how
 6     wrong we can sometimes go; Knowlton Nash still
 7     commanding our attention and respect.
 8  351                  Who can resist "As it Happens"?  I
 9     was pleased to hear that they have a 12-year-old fan.
10  352                  These programs are a reflection of
11     all Canadians and how we see ourselves:  the good, the
12     bad, and the in between.  They probably do more to
13     bring the country together than all the legislation and
14     constitutional conferences and free flags put together.
15  353                  Finally, on the question of financing
16     -- the last but not the least concern.  To placate our
17     demand for a continuing vigorous and meaningful CBC it
18     is not sufficient to cry budget cuts or talk about
19     market values.  I know these have happened.
20  354                  I decry the recent recall of some
21     foreign journalists, because I worry about where our
22     news from those places will come.
23  355                  But we know there is money in Ottawa. 
24     We dutifully daily and annually supply those deep
25     coffers.  Oh, April is the cruellest month!  It is not
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 1     necessarily a matter of higher taxes, although one
 2     caller on the Sunday evening suggested that people
 3     might be willing to pay more if they had more say on
 4     how the moneys are spent.
 5  356                  I believe that it is a question of
 6     priorities with our government, and that is why I am so
 7     uneasy.  So much so that I have been emboldened to
 8     appear here today.  I believe it is the responsibility
 9     of our government to see that for the CBC, there is
10     adequate funding, competent management, maintenance of
11     its high standards into the next millennium.
12  357                  In viewing the Canadian cultural
13     scene, it is obvious that the CBC remains the sole
14     institution that can be described as truly Canadian.
15  358                  Let me say, in conclusion, for that
16     reason alone, if we care about Canada, the CBC must
17     endure.
18  359                  Thank you very much for the
19     opportunity.  I feel better already.  Maybe this
20     mosquito will be noticed.
21     --- Applause / Applaudissements
22  360                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
23     much, Mrs. Gilmour.  We really appreciate you being
24     here today with us to share your thoughts.
25  361                  Mr. Secretary.
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 1  362                  MR. LAHAY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
 2  363                  I would like to, once again, for the
 3     record, call speakers 2 and 3 of the first ten: 
 4     Catherine Meyer and Rosemay Connell.
 5  364                  Please make yourself known to the
 6     Commission if you wish to speak.
 7  365                  No response, Madam Chair.
 8  366                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Then that completes
 9     the first ten.  I think we will take a break at this
10     point.  We will reconvene in ten minutes -- it is now
11     2:30, so precisely at 2:40 -- with our next group of
12     ten.
13  367                  On va prendre une pause pour six
14     minutes.
15     --- Recess at 1440 / Suspension à 1440
16     --- Upon resuming at 1445 / Reprise à 1445
17  368                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  We are going to
18     reconvene.  On va commencer dans quelques secondes.
19  369                  I would ask the Secretary to call out
20     the names of the next ten participants and ask you to
21     come to the table, please.
22  370                  MR. LAHAY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
23  371                  For the next ten presenters:  Liz
24     Campbell; John Lindsay; Andrew Atkins; Marjorie
25     Reynolds; Eveline St-Denis; William Scoffield; Janna
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 1     Ramsay Best; Steve Dodson; Jean and Pamela Charron; and
 2     Patricia Hatala.
 3  372                  Please come forward and take a
 4     position at the front table.
 5                                                        1450
 6  373                  We will start with Liz Campbell,
 7     please.
 8  374                  I would again ask you to try to keep
 9     your comments to ten minutes and to identify yourself
10     when you first start speaking so that we will have your
11     name for the record.
12  375                  Thank you.
13     PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
14  376                  MS CAMPBELL:  I am Liz Campbell.  My
15     husband and I are from Massey.  CBC Radio One is our
16     lifeline to the world, our connection to news stories
17     of national and international importance.  Local
18     programming keeps us in touch with information in our
19     neighbourhood. CBC Radio One is our window on the
20     world.  It keeps us company from early morning to late
21     at night.  The varied programming, from light to
22     serious topics, stories, interviews, all delivered by
23     journalists who have become trusted friends across the
24     airwaves, as we move through daily chores.
25  377                  Even the pain of a visit to my local
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 1     dentist is eased by hearing familiar voices as I
 2     recline in the chair.
 3  378                  The stimulus of excellence and
 4     innovative delivery of programs is a great impetus for
 5     thoughtful reflection and discussion.
 6  379                  Our vehicle radios are tuned to CBC
 7     Radio One.  In fact, they are programmed to several CBC
 8     airwaves so we can find it easily, whether we are
 9     travelling locally in the north or on longer trips to
10     visit family in southern Ontario.
11  380                  CBC gives us the connection to issues
12     and people from far and wide across this vast land.
13  381                  As a relatively new Canadian citizen,
14     coming from across the pond in the early 1970s, I find
15     it a continuous marvel to hear stories from communities
16     far and wide, large and small, across Canada, and
17     indeed across the world.
18  382                  As we moved from southern Ontario
19     near Stratford, it was great comfort to know CBC Radio
20     One would be moving with us.  It was tough enough to
21     find out that CBC Radio Two was not available to all of
22     Canada, including Massey.  We used to enjoy having the
23     option of putting our feet up and listening to a
24     symphony.
25  383                  CBC Radio Two is a nice option for
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 1     about three-quarters of the population.  However, CBC
 2     Radio One is definitely not an option. After all, it is
 3     the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation who speaks to the
 4     people of Canada, and on shortwave radio and Internet
 5     across the world.
 6  384                  Let's make sure the CBC continues to
 7     keep its integrity.
 8  385                  Thank you.
 9  386                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Ms
10     Campbell.
11  387                  Mr. Secretary.
12                                                        1455
13  388                  MR. LAHAY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
14  389                  John Lindsay, please.
15     PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
16  390                  MR. LINDSAY:  Thank you very much.
17  391                  As no one has as of yet, I would like
18     to thank the CRTC for being here with us and for indeed
19     being across the country listening to our concerns and
20     perhaps some of our suggestions, as well.
21  392                  I am here representing a group called
22     Concerned Canadians for Local Radio here in Sudbury. 
23     Our group is made up of local citizens from the
24     professions, labour, business, government and the arts,
25     and present and former broadcasters like myself.
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 1  393                  Our membership includes those from
 2     the Chamber of Commerce, Sudbury and District Labour
 3     Council, Business and Professional Women's Club, and
 4     the Sudbury Arts Council; as well as support from the
 5     Elizabeth Fry Society, the Canadian Mental Health
 6     Association, Country Music Travellers, the Metro
 7     Management Board, Sudbury Family Services, Regional
 8     Palliative Care, the Addiction Awareness Coalition,
 9     Sudbury Rotary, Sunrisers and our agency committee,
10     Industrial Development Commission, and so on.
11  394                  We have made a number of
12     interventions over the years to the CRTC, particularly
13     with respect to the concentration of ownership in
14     private radio.  This has largely been allowed to take
15     place.  As a result, the value of CBC radio in
16     individual communities has an even greater importance
17     than before, if only for this reason alone.
18  395                  With all private stations in a
19     community speaking with one voice -- and this is pretty
20     much the situation we have forthcoming in Sudbury.  It
21     is the situation now in Timmins, Sault Ste. Marie and
22     North Bay, and in many other locations across the
23     country.  The importance of the CBC, this one voice
24     will be there, we hope, to offer some alternative news,
25     thought, opinion and entertainment.
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 1  396                  My history is as both a fulltime and
 2     part-time broadcaster for a number of years.  I was
 3     just thinking that some of the other people had related
 4     their experiences of the years, and recalling back, my
 5     first experience was as a very young teenager in
 6     Oakville -- my uncle was postmaster so I got a job in
 7     the post office in Oakville -- and on Saturday
 8     afternoons there was an individual who would put on the
 9     CBC very loud and we would all enjoy opera.
10  397                  Many of you, who are perhaps as old
11     as I, will recall opera on a Saturday afternoon.  Now
12     of course we have "Definitely Not The Opera", which is
13     a fine program and I listen to it myself, although I do
14     miss the opera.  Perhaps it is on CBC Two.  However, as
15     indicated by many who have gone before me and likely
16     will follow, we are deficit in that regard.  I will
17     talk about that later.
18  398                  One of my first jobs in broadcasting
19     was at Timmins, at CKGB.  Back at that time, the
20     affiliates of course carried CBC programming.  I was
21     introduced to -- of course starting in the evening, as
22     most young announcers would start -- CBC Wednesday
23     night, and of course every other night on CBC, and
24     became a real fan.
25  399                  You will be surprised at how many
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 1     private broadcasters are fans of the CBC, because when
 2     you basically program drivel during the whole day you
 3     appreciate having something a little more enlightening
 4     at the end of the day.
 5  400                  I want to talk about both radio --
 6     although our group is primarily concerned about radio,
 7     I want to talk about TV as well, first of all, with
 8     respect to the other services that have been talked
 9     about -- audio, video and even web base that are
10     contemplated.
11  401                  Before this happens, the provision of
12     over the air of CBC Radio Two service should be made
13     available to communities like Sudbury, which has been
14     far too long denied this service.  Of course, it is
15     groups like ourselves who intervene with the CRTC if
16     other services are to be introduced before CBC Radio
17     Two services are to be made available across the
18     country.
19  402                  With respect to radio, CBC radio has
20     suffered so much lately.  This need not have happened. 
21     We need more integration of programming, more national
22     and regional integration.  This is just an idea,
23     because we do need the national programming, we do need
24     the local programming.  We feel it should be
25     integrated, starting at early morning with 20 minutes
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 1     of every hour local and regional and the other 40
 2     minutes national, or perhaps vice versa, throughout the
 3     week, from 6:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m.  It would utilize
 4     resources better and provide a wider and more diverse
 5     audience for all programming.
 6  403                  Of special concern is the talent. 
 7     Local CBC does little to promote local talent.  This
 8     talent should be provided a venue to showcase their
 9     abilities and to enrich our communities.  This did
10     occur to a limited extent at one time here in Sudbury
11     and in the north, but was given very low priority. 
12     This is a cultural activity, whether it is the
13     broadcasting of a local symphony concert or choir to a
14     high school rap group or university jazz combo.
15  404                  If this does not seem to fit into the
16     programming of the CBC as they see it, then perhaps
17     some government funding should go to the many
18     university stations around the country to perform this
19     service.
20  405                  We have an excellent university
21     station here in town, and I am privileged to have a
22     program on that station.  We do promote local talent. 
23     However, I feel that this should be the role of the CBC
24     as well.  If they don't do it, maybe funding should be
25     provided, as I suggest, to university stations or
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 1     others, or perhaps private radio, as it once was
 2     required to do as a condition of their licence.
 3  406                  This is not the case now, of course,
 4     and I doubt whether that is ever going to happen again.
 5  407                  Moving on to TV, we feel that CBC
 6     should get out of commercial broadcasting on TV.  The
 7     cable TV Newsworld service should be integrated with
 8     the present Over the Air service to make just one
 9     channel.  Let the private networks and stations do the
10     lowest common denominator stuff and the CBC concentrate
11     on more worthy, quality oriented programs, even if they
12     have to repeat them because of a lack of sufficient new
13     material.
14  408                  This is not really a new idea. 
15     Patrick Watson suggested it just a few years ago,
16     citing an example of the Avro Aero(ph) program which
17     was seen only once or twice.
18  409                  On our 500-channel universe there is
19     little danger in repeating quality programming.  The
20     only advertising allowed should be PBS-type
21     announcements.
22  410                  This combination should mean, or
23     would mean perhaps, that we would retain the best of
24     both the cable CTV TV, which --
25  411                  I was talking to a compatriot during
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 1     our break and he said that Newsworld seems to be what
 2     the CBC originally intended to do.  Now if you don't
 3     have cable, you don't get it.
 4  412                  By this suggestion, we would
 5     amalgamate both.  We would provide the service both on
 6     cable and of course over the air.
 7  413                  The utilization of resources, there
 8     doesn't seem to be too much rationalization in the
 9     services.  Some talk TV programs could be used on radio
10     as well and utilizing these resources more efficiently.
11  414                  Vicki Gabereau disappeared.  I think
12     she is on TV somewhere.  I am not sure.  Pamela Wallin
13     is on Newsworld, but I don't get to see it because I
14     don't have cable.  Why isn't Pamela somehow on CBC
15     Radio One or Vicki on CBC Radio One?  Surely talking
16     heads don't make much difference if it is on radio or
17     on TV.
18  415                  Basically summarizing, I think the
19     CBC should forget about these other fancy services like
20     Internet programming and concentrate on the non-wired
21     public.  Eventually, anything the CBC does well can be
22     made available on the Internet.  We have streamed CBC
23     on the Internet at the present time.
24  416                  It seems like they are bent on
25     developing new services while not servicing as well
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 1     with what they have or what is available that just
 2     doesn't make it up here.
 3  417                  It can be done.  We can't afford
 4     perhaps what we have now, but through the integration
 5     of services, and speaking on behalf in a way of private
 6     broadcasters who have been able to consolidate services
 7     who have been able to integrate, who have been able to
 8     really do a fairly good job as far as private
 9     broadcasters are concerned.  But we are talking about
10     national CBC service, local and regional CBC service,
11     which I believe can be much better than it is now; can
12     be integrated much more fully than it is now; and can
13     provide much greater service than it presently does.
14  418                  Thank you very much.
15                                                        1504
16  419                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
17     much, Mr. Lindsay.
18  420                  MR. LAHAY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
19  421                  Andrew Atkins, please.
20  422                  Marjorie Reynolds.
21  423                  Eveline St-Denis.
22     PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
23  424                  MS ST-DENIS:  My name is Eveline
24     St-Denis, from Sudbury.  I wish to thank the Committee
25     for giving me the opportunity to speak here today.  I
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 1     am grateful for the chance to exercise my democratic
 2     right of free speech as guaranteed by the Canadian
 3     Charter of Rights.
 4  425                  I am here today to voice my concern
 5     regarding a certain report which was broadcast on CBC's
 6     "National Magazine" on January 19, 1999, namely "Thou
 7     Shalt Not Kill", by Carol Hoft(ph).
 8  426                  I am disappointed in Ms Hoft's
 9     reporting skills.  A reporter's first and foremost duty
10     is to present the facts in a clear unbiased manner. 
11     All sides of an issue must be presented if the report
12     is to be just.  Unfortunately, Ms Hoft opted to show
13     only one side of the issue.  She adopted the pro-choice
14     view of the issue exclusively, and therefore her
15     reporting was strongly biased and prejudiced against
16     the pro-life position.
17  427                  Another aspect of her reporting which
18     I find disturbing is the fact that she chose to include
19     the American view of the issue.  Since the report was
20     aired on a Canadian program funded by Canadian tax
21     dollars, it seems to me that this constitutes a misuse
22     of Canadian tax funds.
23  428                  The abortion issue in the United
24     Stats is much different from the Canadian issue. 
25     Canadian pro-lifers do not advocate the use of
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 1     violence.  I am appalled at Ms Hoft's misconstruing the
 2     Canadian abortion issue by including an Americanized
 3     view of the subject.
 4  429                  In a country where we clamour for
 5     more Canadian content, the mixing of American views
 6     with a Canadian issue is definitely a misunderstanding
 7     of what Canadian content really means.  Ms Hoft did not
 8     allocate sufficient time to the Canadian pro-lifers to
 9     state their position.
10  430                  Jim Hughes, President of Campaign
11     Life, was allowed two minutes in a two-hour long
12     program.  He is a key member of the Canadian Pro-Life
13     Movement and is definitely in a position to give an
14     exact picture of the pro-life mentality in this
15     country.
16  431                  It seems to me that life and the
17     right to it is such an important and insensitive issue
18     that reports of this nature should be closely
19     scrutinized by the CBC to ensure quality reporting on a
20     national television corporation.
21  432                  If the CBC is to allow reports such
22     as those of Ms Hoft's, it should also air reports to
23     support family values.  Programs which would inform the
24     Canadian public on the beauty of life from its
25     conception, with presentations by Canadian geneticists
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 1     to obstetricians, would certainly add more balance in
 2     the presentation of this issue.
 3  433                  Why not see pregnancy as beautiful
 4     any more?  This approach would also be more educational
 5     and would inform the Canadian public instead of playing
 6     on people's emotions.
 7  434                  I believe a well informed Canadian
 8     public would be well equipped to make a fair choice in
 9     this issue.  The CBC could rectify the biased reporting
10     by presenting the Pro-life Vigil on Parliament Hill on
11     May 14th to remember the 30th anniversary of the
12     Supreme Court ruling striking down the previously
13     existing Canadian law prohibiting abortion.  Thousands
14     of Canadians will be present in a show of solidarity
15     and the right to life for every Canadian, from
16     conception to natural death.
17  435                  I would certainly hope that the CBC
18     will be present on Parliament Hill on May 14, 1999.
19  436                  I find the CBC is falling short on
20     its mandate when it fails to give unbiased reporting. 
21     On the other hand, I do see a striving to protect
22     Canadian culture and buffer us from an overwhelming
23     tide of American influence in certain programs.
24  437                  In the new millennium I believe the
25     CBC should strive to present television programming
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 1     that encourages family values and morals and that
 2     discourages violence.  Children at this time are being
 3     destroyed or mixed up by false misleading statements. 
 4     They need to know the truth and nothing but the truth.
 5  438                  The diversity of Canada's regions
 6     needs to be respected and presented as they are, for
 7     this will stimulate national pride.  It will also
 8     preserve small communities and the uniqueness of their
 9     ways.  This will also help to promote family values,
10     which are usually very strong in smaller centres.
11  439                  The programming provided by CBC
12     should be different than that of other broadcasters. 
13     Due to the fact that it is a publicly owned and funded
14     corporation, the CBC has a duty to preserve, promote
15     and exemplify Canadian culture and values.  The CBC
16     should be a leader in the promotion of everything that
17     is good and beautiful in this country.
18  440                  Since Canada has been named by the
19     United Nations as the best country in the world to live
20     in, the CBC should help to preserve this international
21     status by encouraging the adherence to strong family
22     values and non-violence.
23  441                  I wish to thank the CRTC for allowing
24     me to speak on such important issues.
25  442                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Madam
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 1     St-Denis.
 2                                                        1510
 3  443                  MR. LAHAY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
 4  444                  William Scoffield, please.
 5     PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
 6  445                  MR. SCOFFIELD:  "Enter the church
 7     organist with long thin face", said Bernard Shaw.  I
 8     guess that's me, Bill Scoffield, with fortissimo in the
 9     middle.
10  446                  I am the organist at St. Andrew's
11     United Church, Peterborough, graduate of 35 years of
12     secondary school teaching of math and music, and still
13     teaching a lot of piano, vocal, theory and that sort of
14     thing to both big and little.  I speak for myself and
15     possibly me wife.
16  447                  Whoever gets up first turns on the
17     radio -- to Radio One, of course.  We love Radio Two,
18     but we seldom have time for it, because we are too busy
19     listening to Radio One.
20  448                  Distinguished members of the CRTC and
21     friends, thank you for this wonderful opportunity to
22     address you after all my 5,000 e-mails to "CBC Input".
23  449                  The questions, or shall I say the
24     answers:  In my view, without knowing precisely the
25     duties as prescribed by Parliament, the CBC does most
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 1     of the things it should as a national public
 2     broadcaster extremely well and then some.
 3  450                  Changes I would like to see for the
 4     new millennium, as you asked, or any time in the
 5     future, I will mention in a moment.
 6  451                  The CBC serves the public rather well
 7     on a regional level, I think, but I wish I could avoid
 8     the Toronto traffic reports somehow, except on the few
 9     days a year when I travel there.
10  452                  The programming provided by the CBC
11     should definitely be different from the public
12     broadcasters.  The CBC, please, must do what the
13     privates are not doing.
14  453                  My wife warned me that I shouldn't
15     use that word for them, because there might be some old
16     men on the board who would know what "the privates"
17     are.
18  454                  In any rate, we must no do what the
19     privates are doing.  What they do should be done
20     without advertising, not even the fund raising that
21     plagues TV Zero and the American PBS.  What is the
22     point of having a public broadcaster doing what the
23     privates are doing?
24  455                  I believe that when private
25     broadcasters can provide uncut Canadian films, all
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 1     those lovely things made by our Canadian directors and
 2     companies and the National Film Board -- when they
 3     provide those without interruption, all the ones we
 4     can't see in our own movie theatres, when the privates
 5     can provide the public affairs programs that CBC radio
 6     currently has without being beholden to businesses,
 7     when the privates can provide serious music -- oh, oh,
 8     what a word, but there is no other available.  When
 9     they can provide serious music and lots of nostalgic
10     music, like Adrian Schuman(ph), without advertising;
11     when the privates can present our Canadian symphonies
12     and writers as the CBC does now -- or did until
13     "Morningside" and "Vicki Gabereau" disappeared -- then
14     maybe we won't need the CBC.
15  456                  And that kind of answers your fourth
16     question too.
17  457                  Here are my suggestions for some
18     changes.
19  458                  For goodness sake, let's have more
20     funds for radio; and second, and very important, let's
21     take away the political control that is so
22     objectionable.
23  459                  There should be a board governing the
24     CBC -- and I have no idea how it is made up at the
25     moment.  The board should be made up of representatives
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 1     from any number of important organizations, like just
 2     one please from the Canadian Chamber of Commerce and
 3     one from the Council of Canadians and the National
 4     Citizens Coalition, and all the other similar
 5     organizations.  But the Musicians Union should have a
 6     couple of people there, and one representing each of
 7     the major professions -- not forgetting the Royal
 8     Canadian College of Organists, please -- and one
 9     representing the popular --
10  460                  Of course, there is going to be too
11     large a board.  There are going to be thousands of
12     people.  They can get together every two years -- at
13     their own expense, please -- and elect an inner board
14     of the same size as the present one, without all that
15     political meddling.  That board, to me, should have
16     complete power, such as raising its own funds like the
17     school boards in Ontario used to do and appoint its own
18     executive officers without politics interfering.
19  461                  Just one rule:  no salaries for
20     anybody larger than a sitting MP, perhaps the PM's
21     salary for the head boy.
22  462                  The gold-plated advisors in Ottawa
23     can certainly figure out exactly how to do all of this
24     -- that is what they are paid for -- but our national
25     broadcaster must not be obligated in any way to them. 
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 1     At the same time, because the CBC will probably only
 2     serve the minority that really cares about the country
 3     and culture and all of the rest, there must be some
 4     protection from disruptions that could result if a new
 5     CBC had to "go to the people" directly for their funds.
 6  463                  It is not hard to think that the
 7     majority of Canadians -- and that majority is
 8     increasing all the time, I think -- would not see the
 9     value of what we have and what we have had, and they
10     could easily end it.
11  464                  It is like the French population in
12     Quebec.  It is a minority, a minority there that
13     Parliament and the rest of Canadians protect; and it is
14     a minority of Canadians who really use the CBC as it
15     was intended.  We can't afford to lose it.
16  465                  Some will call my viewpoints elitist,
17     especially when you hear what else I would like to see
18     happen, but I don't feel that I am a member of any
19     elite, believe me.
20  466                  Just because the majority of
21     Canadians actually listen to what is called pop radio,
22     to use a very poorly chosen term, because it means what
23     I play isn't popular -- which it is -- it doesn't mean
24     that we should have no CBC.  It does mean that CBC
25     radio does not need to plug pop music, from my point of
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 1     view, at all.
 2  467                  Where else can we find the
 3     information we need in order to be participating
 4     citizens if our daily lives are so rushed, as mine
 5     seems to be even in retirement, that we hardly have
 6     time to read a newspaper.  What a godsend to anybody
 7     who spends much time commuting is the CBC radio.  We
 8     need it.
 9  468                  And talking heads, to the gentlemen
10     who just spoke from Sudbury, do make a difference if
11     they are on the radio.  You don't need to watch them
12     while you are driving your car.  And that's a real
13     plus.
14  469                  I would like to see CBC TV much more
15     like TV Zero used to be.  If that means CTV does
16     "Hockey Night in Canada", so be it.  Maybe in the
17     interests of true Canadian culture, the CBC should
18     continue with "Hockey Night in Canada" and simply
19     distribute it freely to all local stations provided it
20     is presented with no ads.
21  470                  Especially this might be a time to
22     ask if the national game, at least in Canada, should be
23     organized around the current advertising, as it is,
24     instead of the opposite.  To me, the advertising should
25     surround the game, not the game surround the
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 1     advertising.  This is a terrible situation for our
 2     national game.
 3  471                  I believe the CBC and our taxpayers
 4     have a way to change that.
 5  472                  What I regard as even more terrible
 6     concerns Radio One -- I forgot to turn my watch on --
 7     which has to many excellent current affairs programs
 8     that I seldom have it off, not even when Bill
 9     Richardson is on, except during DNTO, of course, when I
10     have the opera on.
11  473                  What a jolt when just after you have
12     heard an interview with some exceptional person that
13     CBC has no trouble finding -- like the people here
14     today -- after an unbelievable gold mine of information
15     or culture, or whatever, the interviewer says "oh, we
16     are out of time", and the wonderful web of intricate
17     thought is shattered by some hick, hayseed three-note
18     endlessly drummed so-called music that sounds more like
19     a murder.
20  474                  If it is an all news and information
21     station, let's leave out any music, because we
22     obviously can't agree on what the music should be --
23     including those mindless themes.  If there must be
24     theme music and those jarring little four-note
25     dissonances on the hour, how about fair representation
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 1     of other musical forms than electronic.  Use the
 2     electronic stuff on Monday when I am busy playing
 3     hockey; Mozart on Tuesday; pipe organ stuff on
 4     Wednesday -- and I will play all you want for $40 an
 5     hour.
 6  475                  Yes, I am serious.  No music on Radio
 7     One, please, because anything a person doesn't like
 8     spoils the quality of what is there.  If you have to
 9     fill up the holes while the announcers or the hosts, or
10     whatever they are, take a breath, have a Bob Johnson
11     historical comment again.
12  476                  Did you hear the solo bassoon on "As
13     It Happens Last Night"?  What class to hear just a
14     bassoon chuckling away after some interview or other,
15     that I have even forgotten already.  Short-term memory
16     problems, I tell you.
17  477                  For 35 years of teaching secondary
18     school music, math and English, I think there were
19     always two or three programs listed on the blackboard
20     every day for every student.  What pride I had writing
21     those on the blackboard.  "Don't miss this, kids."  And
22     they listened to me.
23  478                  I was so gratified when out of a
24     class of 30 you had two or three at the end of the year
25     say "thanks for introducing us to that radio station". 
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 1     I always felt able to recommend CBC radio, either
 2     branch, to students any time.
 3  479                  I often felt I was a salesman for the
 4     CBC, with no regrets.  And they never even knew.
 5  480                  The students who tuned in were the
 6     winners.  But now I would not recommend CBC One for
 7     information or music, because the kids I am trying to
 8     teach great music to are just hearing too much of the
 9     same sort of stuff that is permeating Radio One.  Some
10     would argue that pop music reflects modern taste, but I
11     feel it only shows how impoverished our children are
12     that they would turn to the mindless crap that
13     masquerades as music throughout our country.
14  481                  How can our children develop good
15     taste -- whatever that is -- if they are only served
16     junk food?
17  482                  I have six more burning desires,
18     which I hope I can fit in my ten minutes -- or am I
19     over already? -- whatever good this might do, in spite
20     of what the costs might be.
21  483                  First, why can't a national
22     broadcaster have the same radio frequency across the
23     country, or three or four or five frequencies, so that
24     travellers like me, who spend five hours in the car
25     getting here, don't have to go through five separate
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 1     frequencies to keep tuned in to Michael Enright.  Bless
 2     him.
 3  484                  Second, why can't we have all the
 4     French TV with English subtitles -- I get a lot of
 5     French TV on my dish and on my aerial -- and vice
 6     versa, at least for the newscasts, so that those of who
 7     want to experience some French have something down at
 8     the bottom to go by.  That would be very cheap.
 9  485                  They even have it in our health club,
10     a guy talking -- and you can't hear him because it's
11     the health club and the music is too loud.  Down at the
12     bottom are the subtitles.
13  486                  Along the same lines, how about Cross
14     -- it should be called "Happy Country Check-up", seven
15     days a week, and all the French radio stations as well,
16     with simultaneous translations both ways so our two
17     solitudes can at last speak to each other.  And Rex
18     gets no holidays.  Well, I would be happy to stand in
19     for him a couple of times just for fun, if anybody else
20     could stand it.
21  487                  Third, is there some way we can avoid
22     personalities becoming so important?  I am sure there
23     are many academics in Canada who would love to plan a
24     week of ideas -- and would probably do it for the love
25     of it, if you want to save some money.  And why can't
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 1     we hear less of those hosts during the day and more
 2     freelance interviewers?
 3  488                  Often the hosts and/or interviewers
 4     seem to get in the way of the ideas flowing from their
 5     subjects.  If there were no shows and they were
 6     nameless, like CKO All News Radio used to be, the hosts
 7     would not own them and use them as a base for
 8     popularity.
 9  489                  I quote from the Albany Institute, I
10     believe, down in New York State:
11                            "Pity the country that needs
12                            heroes."
13  490                  The guy's first name is Herman.  You
14     will have to look it up.
15  491                  Fourth, it was Perrin Beatty who said
16     just a few days ago that a CBC Three was being planned
17     for young people.  Spare us.  All you have is for young
18     people.  It is the best quality stuff there is, and
19     don't give them anything less, please.  The whole CBC
20     has been drummed down, at least Radio One, over the
21     last few years just to attract those who will never be
22     interested anyway.
23  492                  Give us the best material you can so
24     that those of us who have a little influence with 
25     young folk -- if any -- can hold up what you do with
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 1     pride and not seem loony when a younger person does
 2     follow our advice.  Why can't listening to CBC become
 3     almost an expectation of adulthood and participatory
 4     citizenship in Canada?  Well, maybe not for absolutely
 5     everyone.
 6  493                  I can just imagine a CBC for the
 7     younger generation.  Endless DNTO.  That's what the
 8     privates do.  Leave it to them.
 9  494                  Fifth, if there is to be a CBC 
10     Three, why not make it a strictly call-in station with
11     no hosts, no announcements and as little editing as
12     possible, like the news groups and e-mail lists on the
13     Internet.
14  495                  For example, if I have something to
15     say -- like I always have -- I call the number.  I have
16     three minutes.  My message is checked for profanity and
17     hate messages, and broadcast.  The phones are open
18     until the available time on CBC Three is used, and then
19     shut down.
20  496                  Think of that.  The budget for that
21     station would be like three million bucks a year. 
22     Allow us to speak to each other as Canadians without
23     interference.
24  497                  Along the same lines, have you any
25     idea how I would love to hear that little church choir
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 1     out in Nanaimo singing Stayner's(ph) Crucifixion,
 2     however badly, to compare with my own.  And I would
 3     like them to hear my choir from my church with
 4     octogenarians singing Stayner's Crucifixion or some
 5     other miraculous work of music.
 6  498                  How about a CBC Four with no Robert
 7     Coopers or Howard Dicks deciding what is good enough
 8     for national consumption.  Amateurs deserve to be heard
 9     much more than they are.  I can't think of a better
10     vehicle than a low budget nation-wide station that
11     simply plays recordings submitted by amateurs with no
12     production budget whatever.  This would work with a TV
13     station too, with videotape from all our schools and
14     local dramatic groups.
15  499                  The little town of Cobourg has about
16     four musicals a year -- Carousel, Music Man, you name
17     it -- and that stuff should be going out to all the
18     other groups in Canada that can't get to Cobourg. 
19     What's wrong with that?
20  500                  What does CBC TV cost -- $900 million
21     a year or something crazy?  And all the amateurs of the
22     country go begging, like me.  I play organ recitals
23     almost for free.  Have you ever heard of me?  You have
24     today.
25  501                  And you can do it regionally, too,
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 1     like the man from Sudbury said.  This kind of thing can
 2     go a long way towards building national unity, provided
 3     the French and English are not put on separate
 4     networks.
 5  502                  I love French Canadian music, and you
 6     can be sure it is just as good at the low level as it
 7     is at the professional level.
 8  503                  Finally -- well, not quite finally --
 9     there is no point in having the treasure we have unless
10     it is advertised.  Every daily, weekly or monthly
11     newspaper or magazine in the country should carry CBC
12     radio program listings in full.  It would only take a
13     few column inches.
14  504                  How can you grow an audience if the
15     audience does not know you exist?  And many don't.  I
16     have dealt with high school students, 5,000 of them
17     over my career, and only maybe 500 knew of the CBC. 
18     The rest learned about it maybe from me and my
19     colleagues.
20  505                  The present advertising in The Globe
21     and Saturday Night is not detailed enough and certainly
22     seems too restrictive in the audience it reaches.
23  506                  I must not leave out the Web site and
24     Victoria Wilcox's e-mails.  They are absolutely
25     wonderful things that need to be kept up.  Being able
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 1     to get "Quirks and Quarks" off the web site a year
 2     after you have heard the program so that you can
 3     convince your 35-year-old child that yes, this was a
 4     truly scientific report, not just your father's weak
 5     memory in remembering something valuable.
 6  507                  That is wonderful stuff.  Please keep
 7     it up, along with all the other wonderful stuff that
 8     comes to our homes from one of the only businesses I
 9     know that is truly loved by many of its customers.
10  508                  Additionally, whatever the CBC
11     presents, I believe radio or TV should be paid for,
12     purchased with full rights, so that when I call Lister
13     Sinclair to use one of his plays in my church for
14     Christmas Eve, we don't have to pay him; it has already
15     been paid.
16  509                  Thanks.  I really appreciate this
17     opportunity.  I hope I didn't blow it.
18  510                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
19     much, Mr. Scoffield.
20  511                  Mr. Secretary.
21                                                        1525
22  512                  MR. LAHAY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
23  513                  Mrs. Janna Ramsay Best, please.
24     PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
25  514                  MRS. JANNA RAMSAY BEST:  My name is
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 1     Janna Ramsay Best.  I apologize for my voice; I have
 2     just recovered from the flu and this may not turn out
 3     very well.
 4  515                  Thank you for this opportunity to
 5     express my views on the CBC.
 6  516                  I am here as an independent listener
 7     and viewer.  I do not represent any group.  I feel
 8     strongly that for our democracy to work, to enable
 9     citizens to make informed choices, we must have
10     informed independent media coverage of everything that
11     goes on in the public domain in Canada.
12  517                  We have seen the concentration of
13     ownership of newspapers in the hands of Conrad Black. 
14     We have seen the increased funding from the public
15     purse of commercial radio and television, at the same
16     time as those private enterprises which the demise of
17     the CBC.
18  518                  First, I have to explain that I am an
19     avid radio listener, like so many other people here,
20     and most of my remarks are concerned with CBC radio.
21  519                  In 1993 the Liberal government
22     promised stable funding for the CBC.  This did not
23     happen.
24  520                  In 1996 I wrote to the Hon. Sheila
25     Copps about my concerns over the apparent dismantling
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 1     of the CBC, and I quote:
 2                            "Madam Minister, I am writing to
 3                            tell you how upset I am at the
 4                            demolition of the CBC radio."
 5  521                  Remember, this was in 1996.
 6                            "When I first came to Canada
 7                            from Scotland in 1961, CBC radio
 8                            was one of the most important
 9                            means of learning about Canada
10                            for a new young immigrant.  Over
11                            the last 35 years I have been a
12                            faithful, grateful, critical but
13                            never indifferent listener.  I
14                            cannot tell you how much I have
15                            appreciated so many of the
16                            hundreds of truly professional
17                            broadcasters on CBC radio."  (As
18                            read)
19  522                  In 1962 a friend had a similar
20     experience when she arrived in Saskatchewan from
21     Yugoslavia, and I quote her.  She said:
22                            "CBC was the most important
23                            aspect in my life, providing a
24                            cultural window into Canada, my
25                            new country, and connecting me
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 1                            to the world, especially in the
 2                            isolation of the prairie
 3                            winter." (As read)
 4  523                  She has been a supporter of CBC radio
 5     ever since.
 6  524                  Continuing to quote from my 1996
 7     letter to Sheila Copps, because it is relevant --
 8     although you might not think so:
 9                            "Our local radio station here in
10                            Sudbury has been (inaudible) by
11                            several people.  CBC Northern
12                            Ontario serves a huge
13                            geographical area, but now the
14                            links between the various
15                            scattered municipalities are
16                            being severed.  What is
17                            happening to the links and the
18                            communication in northeastern
19                            Ontario is the same as to Canada
20                            as a whole.  We are losing the
21                            ability to learn about each
22                            other and to keep in touch.  It
23                            has been said that the airwaves
24                            of connecting CBC across Canada
25                            were the 20th century equivalent
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 1                            to the railways of the 19th
 2                            Century, the ties that bind us
 3                            together."  (As read)
 4  525                  Somebody else mentioned that too.
 5                            "Before you demolish the CBC,
 6                            Madam Minister..."
 7  526                  This is still my writing to Sheila
 8     Copps:
 9                            "...what have you got to replace
10                            it?  The Internet?  As I am sure
11                            you know, the Internet is
12                            without allegiance and without
13                            boundaries, which is fine for
14                            some purposes, but it does not
15                            help to define our community. 
16                            These links are being cut, not
17                            only between communities in
18                            northern Ontario and Canada as a
19                            whole; now the rest of the world
20                            will not be able to receive
21                            information from and about, as
22                            the Prime Minister kept
23                            reiterating, the best country in
24                            the world."  (As read)
25  527                  That, I am glad to say, has changed
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 1     since 1996.
 2                            "We, my husband and I, have
 3                            spent extensive periods abroad
 4                            when Radio Canada International
 5                            offered our only chance of
 6                            receiving news about Canada.  In
 7                            the Caribbean, Italy, Israel,
 8                            Ireland, Belgium and Britain,
 9                            none of the newspapers, nor TV,
10                            nor radio, ever covered events
11                            in Canada.  Radio Canada
12                            International was our lifeline. 
13                            "Saturday Afternoon at the
14                            Opera" has been a constant in
15                            our family.  My grown-up
16                            children learned to love opera
17                            from these broadcasts long
18                            before they ever saw and heard
19                            an opera live."  (As read)
20  528                  Here we don't get Radio Two, as
21     everybody is complaining, unless you have it on cable. 
22     That is the only way we can hear it now.
23  529                  Sheila Copps wrote back that far from
24     dismantling the CBC, she was ensuring that funding
25     would be continued.  This has not happened.  Funding
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 1     has been cut yet again.  Just because members of the
 2     government do not like the CBC is not sufficient reason
 3     for dismantling an organization that still could be of
 4     great service to the unity of our country.
 5  530                  The Internet can be used to
 6     disseminate information about Canada.  My daughter, a
 7     doctoral student at the University of Chicago, is very
 8     grateful to be able to listen to CBC radio in real
 9     audio on-line.
10  531                  The Internet, however, is just a
11     conduit.  It is the CBC that provides the content.
12  532                  I find something quite hypocritical,
13     incidentally , about the Honourable Minister's
14     bleatings recently about threatened Canadian culture
15     when she speaks on behalf of Canadian magazines that
16     are fighting the Canadian editions of American
17     magazines that offer advertising space at reduced
18     rates.
19  533                  Please don't misunderstand me.  I
20     sympathize with the Canadian magazines' position.  What
21     I am criticizing is that, in this case, the Government
22     of Canada seems to be defending Canadian culture while
23     in the case of the CBC the government is destroying the
24     CBC's role as another important purveyor, or possible
25     purveyor, of Canadian culture.
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 1  534                  I am not finished with my letters.
 2  535                  I wrote to Perrin Beatty in 1997 and
 3     said to him:
 4                            "On the back of my prized CBC
 5                            northern Ontario shirt are the
 6                            names of communities, large and
 7                            small, in northeastern Ontario
 8                            which are linked to me and my
 9                            community of Sudbury by the
10                            magic of radio:  Atiwapiscat,
11                            Britt, Chapleau, Tomogami and
12                            Timmins, Mattawa, Mendemoya and
13                            Moosenee; Foleyet, Fort Albany
14                            and Fraserdale; and a dozen
15                            more.  To paraphrase Ian Brown's
16                            comments on his final Sunday
17                            morning in 1997:  Though we are
18                            all in different places, radio
19                            at its best brings us all
20                            together."  (As read)
21  536                  In that same year, 1997, the devoted
22     listeners of CBC Northern Ontario lost some of their
23     beast radio people to the cuts.  With the departure of
24     Wolf Hess(ph), David Henley(ph), Bonita Heart(ph),
25     Peter Williams and others, who have not been replaced,
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 1     this area has been done a great disservice.
 2  537                  The summer is always the time when we
 3     listen to the radio at camp.  For people who don't live
 4     in this area, that means cottage.
 5  538                  It is the time of the best of -- that
 6     is, repeats of -- "Morningside", "Double Exposure",
 7     "Gabereau", "Ideas", "Sunday Morning".  I always
 8     appreciated hearing those repeats, because the original
 9     programs were good and worth hearing again; or hearing
10     them for the first time, if I had missed them earlier.
11  539                  In that summer of 1997, I listened to
12     the reprised programs with a real sense of loss, as
13     most of my favourite broadcasters disappeared from CBC
14     radio.  Linda Cullen and Bob Robertson; Ian Brown;
15     Vicki Gabereau; Peter Gzowski; Clyde Gilmer(ph) -- the
16     late lamented Clyde Gilmer -- and many others.
17  540                  Can poor Sheila Rogers, I asked in
18     1997, good as she really is, really be expected to fill
19     in for so many people?
20  541                  It takes years to build up the high
21     standard that these professional broadcasters and their
22     talented producers maintained week after week, year
23     after year.  Who will replace them, I asked?  What will
24     be the future of Canadian public broadcasting?
25  542                  Please note that that was all written
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 1     in June of 1997.  I did not receive a reply.
 2  543                  Now, in March 1999, almost two years
 3     later, we have seen the future.  Are the places on my
 4     CBC shirt, a quaint reminder of a time when places were
 5     once joined together by radio, just as a century ago
 6     places were joined by the railway, just like all those
 7     names carved around the walls of the centra concourse
 8     of Union Station in Toronto.
 9  544                  Craig Mackie(ph) and the producers
10     and broadcasters at CBC Northern Ontario radio are
11     soldiering on as best they can.  Marcus Schwabie(ph)
12     and "The Morning North" is good at encouraging people
13     to phone in from the whole region to give their views
14     of events in the area, or news and weather conditions,
15     and any other item that would be of interest or benefit
16     to the community at large.
17  545                  In the afternoon Barry Mercer gives
18     publicity to events going on in the area, and he
19     interviews people of interest.  But gone are the days
20     when concerts of the Sudbury Symphony or a choir in
21     North Bay, or a pow-pow in Manitoulin Island would be
22     recorded and then broadcast on the radio.
23  546                  The cuts in programming that I so
24     bewailed in June 1997 have turned out to be even worse
25     than I anticipated.  Repeats of programs are no longer
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 1     "The Best Of"; they are what fill up hours of air time
 2     on Radio One or Two.
 3  547                  For example, I heard Stuart MacLean
 4     and "The Vinyl Cafe", which I enjoy, on Radio One one
 5     day and on Radio Two the next.
 6  548                  In addition to all these repeats,
 7     poor Bill Richardson, a most professional broadcaster,
 8     has been given the task of hosting a program which
 9     consists of repeats.
10  549                  Local, regional and national CBC
11     radio must be given the resources to fulfil the mandate
12     to promote understanding and knowledge of Canada by
13     Canadians.
14  550                  In our house we do not watch much
15     television, but we do watch CBC Newsworld, because we
16     have cable, and RDI on a regular basis.  I think the
17     news services partially fills a need for Canadian
18     coverage of current events, both at home and abroad. 
19     However, resources are limited and there are very few
20     foreign correspondents.
21  551                  Ironically, I keep seeing these ads
22     on TVO for the Globe and Mail, emphasizing how many
23     foreign correspondents they have.
24  552                  CBC television, I think, should be
25     given the chance to fulfil its mandate to unite
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 1     Canadians by telling every kind of Canadian story.  The
 2     type of programming could be like a combination of
 3     perhaps TVO and PBS and specialty channels, such as The
 4     History Channel, plus another element that must
 5     experience a vision of what Canada is.
 6  553                  I think it should be the specialty
 7     channel for Canada, not just for "Hockey Night in
 8     Canada" and "Wind at My Back", but also about industry
 9     and commerce, mining and fishing, for all the arts,
10     showing plays and films, including the thousands of
11     National Film Board films that are so difficult to find
12     elsewhere these days.
13  554                  And opera.  We have all these
14     wonderful young singers, like Ben Hepner(ph), all over
15     the world.  And pop concerts of all kinds from all
16     parts of the country.  We are all happy that Céline
17     Dion and Alanis Morrissette and Shania Twain have done
18     so well in the USA, and they, like Don Messer and Anne
19     Murray and Rita MacNeil before them, are all part of
20     the puzzle that is Canada.
21  555                  TV Canada, as I imagine it, would
22     also show Canadians from coast to coast to coast how
23     people live in different parts of the country, what the
24     country itself looks like, its geography, its history;
25     and it should be unique, independent, fair and
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 1     impartial, not an arm of government, and not trying to
 2     compete with the commercial networks.
 3  556                  The commercial networks have
 4     different priorities.  They want to make money.  What I
 5     perceive as CBC's role is to make and keep a country:
 6     Canada.
 7  557                  Thank you.
 8  558                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 9     much, Mrs. Best.  Thank you for being here, especially
10     when you are not feeling that well.  We really
11     appreciate it.
12  559                  Mr. Secretary.
13                                                        1540
14  560                  MR. LAHAY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
15  561                  Mr. Steve Dodson, please.
16     PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
17  562                  MR. DODSON:  Thank you.  My name is
18     Steve Dodson.  I am a member of the CBC audience who
19     normally likes to lurk out there in the vacuum land of
20     Alan McPhie and not speaking out at public policy
21     consultations.  I am not politically active,
22     financially sophisticated, or media-wise.
23  563                  I am here because I feel people like
24     me must speak now, as people have been wonderfully
25     speaking this afternoon, or be prepared to live in the
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 1     ringing silence of a friendly voice gone mute.  I am
 2     determined in the next few minutes to make up for my
 3     past failures to speak out, so that I don't end up
 4     echoing Joni Mitchell's wonderful Canadian lyrics: 
 5     "Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what
 6     you got till its gone."
 7  564                  I am an American, or should I say I
 8     was an American.  Like Janna Best, I come from another
 9     country.  I was a graduate of an Indiana primary school
10     when I arrived with my family in Aylmer, Quebec.  I was
11     eager to learn about my new surroundings, and I quickly
12     became a fan of CBO Radio and CBOT television from
13     Ottawa.
14  565                  I remember being impressed, as a
15     grade 9 student, by the originality of Percy Saltzman,
16     the weatherman from Toronto, and "Front Page
17     Challenge".
18  566                  More recently, I have been privileged
19     to tune in to the story of the "Avro Aero", "Emily of
20     New Moon", "Royal Canadian Air Farce", and many others;
21     the national news on "Magazine", as well as numerous
22     Newsworld documentaries deliver an in-depth
23     understanding of the world and events all over the
24     world that is fascinating and not elsewhere.
25  567                  But I am not here to say more about
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 1     CBC television, because it is the radio side of CBC
 2     that has entered into the fabric of my life, woven into
 3     my lifestyle.  The excellence and essential vibrancy of
 4     CBC radio need to be specifically flagged, pointed out
 5     and honoured.  All too often, when people talk about
 6     the CBC in a policy sense, they are talking about TV
 7     first and foremost, with radio thrown in as an
 8     afterthought.
 9  568                  CBC radio is the most cost-effective
10     way to assert national identity and let Canadians
11     everywhere know each other.  It is the best way for
12     Canadians everywhere in the world to stay in touch with
13     each other, to hear each other's stories.
14  569                  In my early years in my new country I
15     became sensitized to something special in the Canadian
16     character through CBC radio.  There was a Canadian
17     voice which possessed qualities which I had not heard
18     before.
19  570                  When I became a Canadian citizen, I
20     was living up in John Lindsay's CBKB territory in
21     Timmins.  And as John mentioned, CBC radio was carried
22     for two hours in the evening on that station.  But that
23     was long enough to bring the whole world to me through
24     the unique looking glass of a brand new kind of radio
25     called "As it Happens".
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 1  571                  When we got our own northern Ontario
 2     CBC radio station right here in Sudbury, serving
 3     northeastern Ontario, I was a high school physics
 4     teacher in North Bay.  Two years later my life was
 5     changed by this new local service, when I learned about
 6     something called the Sudbury Science Centre Project. 
 7     As a result of tuning in and being informed, I became a
 8     member of the study team that developed what has become
 9     Science North, and I soon moved to Sudbury to become a
10     staff member.
11  572                  This is only one example of many
12     important developments that I became aware of, and
13     stayed in tune with, by tuning into CBC radio. 
14     Regional CBC radio is so effective it is life changing.
15  573                  My life has changed again.  Now I am
16     an entrepreneur, and CBC radio is a companion, from
17     rising in the early morning to late evening.  I own a
18     bunch of radios, and nobody is going to be surprised
19     that they are all tuned to CBC.  It doesn't matter if
20     the knobs fall right off of them.
21  574                  When I am driving through northern
22     Ontario, I do know where and when to change the
23     frequency so I don't miss the conversation.  And
24     sometimes when I am on an errand, I have to postpone
25     going into the store or meeting, or whatever, waiting
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 1     in the parking lot for a particularly interesting
 2     conversation or report to end.
 3  575                  CBC radio stimulates me when I need
 4     stimulating and relaxes me when I need relaxing.  It
 5     entertains, challenges and, as so many have mentioned
 6     today, it expands horizons.
 7  576                  Commercial radio stations, with their
 8     play lists from Toronto and the aggravating staccato of
 9     commercial messages, are just not an option for me. 
10     Big city Canadians may not be aware what a vital link
11     CBC represents to northerners, although they certainly
12     are if they heard earlier presenters today.
13  577                  It is often said that the CBC radio
14     audience is aging.  In the words of the young, duh! 
15     Have the utterers not heard of the news?  The whole
16     population is aging!
17     --- Laughter / Rires
18  578                  Perhaps CBC listener demographics are
19     just keeping up with the times.  Besides, in my house,
20     the second-best listener is my teenage son, even though
21     every other station in the town caters to youthful
22     tastes.  This is something I discovered; I did not
23     instigate -- that is, my son being a CBC fan.
24  579                  I became aware of the dimensions of
25     this country and the richness of its cultural diversity
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 1     through CBC radio more than by any other way.  I have
 2     met myriads of individuals from every part of Canada,
 3     becoming of their lives, circumstances and concerns.  I
 4     have become aware of artists, writers and performers
 5     who might have remained unknown to me until they
 6     enriched me through the medium of CBC radio.
 7  580                  That would even include writers and
 8     contenders for the Governor General's literary prize
 9     and native performers, such as Susan Aglukark,
10     Cashtin(ph), Robbie Robertson, and many others.
11  581                  There is much more than information
12     and music.  There is drama and comedy.  There is the
13     opportunity to look at life through someone else's
14     eyes, to walk in shoes very different from our own.
15  582                  For example, while I was putting my
16     thoughts down on paper preparing to come here, there
17     was in the background on CBC radio a rich, articulate
18     and extremely perceptive portrayal of the world
19     experienced by a very gifted person who happened to be
20     an autistic adult.  Without CBC radio, I would not have
21     been remotely aware that that world existed and would
22     not have entered into that person's world for sure.  My
23     own world would have been a little bit smaller than it
24     now is.
25  583                  The most average of Canadians, near
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 1     and far, have frequently become extraordinary when we
 2     saw them through the eyes of great CBC radio
 3     interviewers.  Great interviewers such as Peter Gzowski
 4     and Vicki Gabereau did it best.  I am also, as Janna
 5     was, saddened that they have moved on.  I suspect it
 6     was because they saw support for what they were doing
 7     drying up because of financial pressures.
 8  584                  Vicki Gabereau's protege, Bill
 9     Richardson, is doing a wonderful job with the mandate
10     that he has.  I believe that he has absorbed a lot of
11     Vicki's skill and could do the in-depth interviews if
12     he were given the chance to do more than collect re-
13     runs.
14  585                  This is the best public radio in the
15     world.  I think CBC's mandate should be to do what CBC
16     radio has been doing so well.  Not being sophisticated
17     in matters of public policy and finance, I am going to
18     find it easier to comment on mandate by telling a
19     simple fable in which Canada is represented by a little
20     farm town, and the idea of mandate is represented by
21     the word chore.
22  586                  You will easily understand what else
23     is represented in this fable.
24  587                  Charlie B. Sear ran the best family
25     farm in town, and folks came from all around to see how
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 1     his farm prospered and how he regularly introduced
 2     successful new crops.  He always brought the most
 3     nutritious produce to market, and his land and home
 4     were pleasant to the eye.  Charles relied on his two
 5     sons, Ron and Tom, in the running of the farm.  Young
 6     Tom was stout, strong and tall.  His older brother Ron
 7     was lean, wiry and intense.  When people came to visit
 8     Charlie, they always noticed Tom because he had a
 9     certain visual presence.  As visitors chatted with
10     Charlie and Tom, the opinion spread through the town
11     that the success of the Sear farm was mostly due to big
12     Tom.  People didn't notice the lean figure of Ron out
13     in the fields or barn, toiling until the last chore was
14     done.
15  588                  The truth was that the chores got
16     done and the farm thrived because Ron did the chores of
17     two or three workers.  But trouble arrived at the farm
18     when simultaneously the price of the main crop dropped
19     and the government support payments dwindled.  Life
20     became harder.  Charlie spoke to his two sons like
21     this:  "Well, sons, we have less of everything now and
22     I am going to have to put less food on the table for
23     both of you.  You'll both have to tighten your belts,
24     and I would like to see you both tighten your belts two
25     notches each year."
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 1  589                  Life was not too hard for Tom.  He
 2     had quite considerable girth and he could tighten his
 3     belt without it showing too much.  When the food was
 4     put on the table, he still got a lot more than thin old
 5     Ron.  In fact, the town people remarked that Tom's
 6     weight loss made him look more fit.  But Ron was
 7     getting alarmingly thin.
 8  590                  Charlie wondered why the chores were
 9     getting done more slowly than in the past.  He would
10     look out and see Ron doing the same thing that he was
11     doing the last time he looked out.  Both sons were
12     working the same hours as before, and Ron was still
13     working until late in the evening.  But then a visitor
14     saw that although Ron still had a look of determination
15     on his face, he was working slower and slower and able
16     to lift less and less.  He was too lean to be able to
17     do all the chores he was eager to do.
18  591                  Now Charlie was a fair and practical
19     man.  He saw that his response to difficult times was
20     making his farm unnecessarily inefficient.  The chores
21     were no longer getting done.  What is happening to the
22     mandate?
23  592                  Perhaps the policy of equal belt
24     tightening should be reconsidered.  Somehow Charlie
25     would have to assure that the food got to where it
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 1     would do the most good so that more chores would get
 2     done.  He would have to make sure that the son who did
 3     his chores so well all his life would get some beef
 4     back on his bones.
 5  593                  I chose the name Ron and Tom simply
 6     because of the letters.  Ron points to one medium and
 7     Tom points to another medium employed by CBC in
 8     fulfilling its mandate.
 9  594                  If there is amoral to this story, it
10     is:  Please make sure that the high cost of television
11     does not prevent CBC radio from doing even more of what
12     it has done so well for so long.  In making sure that
13     this does not happen, CBC will be taking a giant leap
14     towards fulfilling its mandate.
15  595                  Thank you.
16     --- Applause / Applaudissements
17  596                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
18     much, Mr. Dodson.
19  597                  As we go into our next participants,
20     just a gentle reminder about our ten minutes, if we can
21     hold to that.
22  598                  Thank you.
23                                                        1555
24  599                  MR. LAHAY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
25  600                  Mr. Jean and Pamela Charron, please.
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 1     PRESENTATION /PRÉSENTATION
 2  601                  MRS. CHARRON:  Thank you.
 3  602                  Good afternoon.  I have a very stuff
 4     proper introduction here, but I am going to digress
 5     from it.
 6  603                  This is turning out to be fun.
 7  604                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  We are very glad to
 8     hear that.
 9  605                  MRS. CHARRON:  As I listen to these
10     eloquent presentations, I feel that I have rather a
11     hard act to follow.  There is a sense of community that
12     I feel growing in the room.  Most of us are here
13     because we love the CBC.  I think that needs to be
14     underlined.
15  606                  We are going to sound like a broken
16     record.  We are here about CBC Radio Two.
17  607                  For the purposes of this
18     presentation, we represent a significant percentage of
19     the Upper Ottawa Valley population who want the CBC to
20     provide Radio Two and La Chaîne culturelle service to
21     the area.
22  608                  At present, CBC Radio Two and La
23     Chaîne culturelle signals start fading somewhere
24     between Pembroke and Petawawa as you move northwest on
25     Highway 17.  Even in Pembroke, with a population of
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 1     14,500, the reception is spotty.  Sometimes, depending
 2     on the meteorological conditions, there is fair
 3     reception in Deep River.
 4  609                  The result of this is that most
 5     people living in North Renfrew County, and for that
 6     matter throughout northeastern Ontario, cannot receive
 7     CBC Radio Two or La Chaîne, and we will demonstrate
 8     that these programs would find a good audience.
 9  610                  North Renfrew County supports a
10     lively cultural life centred in the Pembroke-Petawawa
11     areas and the town of Deep River.  In the material I
12     will table, we would draw your attention to the
13     performing arts section of the Valley Arts Council
14     Directory.  It lists a dozen cultural organizations,
15     and I would add to that the Deep River Choral Group,
16     Cantandos(ph) Chamber Choir, and the Deep River Theatre
17     Operating Group, which brings in recitalists such as
18     the Members of Piano Six.  They are six world-renowned
19     Canadian concert pianists committed to touring small
20     centres every year.
21  611                  Deep River was even the scene of a
22     world premier recently when the orchestra played a
23     commissioned work by an Ottawa composer, Scott
24     Tresham(ph).
25  612                  The schools support music education
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 1     to the best of their ability.  One of the last
 2     elementary school instrumental music programs was cut
 3     only last year.  There are student theatre and music
 4     productions that draw large audiences.  This area sends
 5     many students on to universities and college music
 6     programs.
 7  613                  Our impression, arriving in the area
 8     after a lifetime in Ottawa with our children going
 9     through a large metropolitan school system, is that the
10     Upper Ottawa Valley produces a higher proportion of
11     career musicians than the city does.  These young
12     people need to be able to listen to the material they
13     are learning and fit it into its artistic context.
14  614                  Excluding Pembroke, the population of
15     the area is about 15,000 by the 1996 Census.  Our
16     package contains a list of 39 names of individuals who
17     contacted us to express their support after we sent a
18     letter to the local weeks, the North Renfrew Times,
19     which has a circulation of about 2,400.  We offered to
20     attend these hearings on their behalf.
21  615                  Even the positioning of our letter,
22     which was placed right underneath the editorial in the
23     newspaper, I think, indicates a broad level of
24     community support, because the newspaper belongs to the
25     community association.
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 1  616                  In addition, our MPP Shawn Conway
 2     sent a letter of support on his own initiative.  He
 3     contacted us.  And a number of people who called or
 4     e-mailed us said they have previously written to the
 5     CBC about the service.
 6  617                  The demand is there, and we think CBC
 7     should make completion of the stereo radio service a
 8     priority.
 9  618                  CBC already has good technical
10     infrastructure in the area.  It is likely on a repeater
11     would be required on an existing tower.  That would get
12     it through the Upper Ottawa Valley.  It would not of
13     course speak for northeastern Ontario.
14  619                  Why should we get this service?  Why
15     now?  How does this relate to the CBC's mandate?
16  620                  The Chair of the CBC, Guylaine
17     Saucier, had a piece in The Globe and Mail on Tuesday,
18     March the 9th.  She quotes the mandate of the CBC as
19     follows:
20                            "...to nurture, promote and
21                            spread the values that define
22                            the Canadian identity."  (As
23                            read)
24  621                  In the Upper Ottawa Valley we do not
25     now have access to the riches of Canada's musical life,
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 1     the live performances in concert halls across the land,
 2     the "Texaco Saturday Afternoon at the Opera"
 3     broadcasts, Summer Festival broadcasts from Lanaudière
 4     and elsewhere on La Chaîne; Jergen Goth's(ph)
 5     "Christmas Hit List"; and there is so much more.
 6  622                  As a little digression here, years
 7     ago when I was living in Ottawa, somewhere around 1992,
 8     one Sunday morning on "Choral Concert" I listened to
 9     Howard Dick's tapes from a choral festival in Powell
10     River, B.C. called a Katowmu(ph).  It's a Kostalish(ph)
11     word.  From that, the choir that I then belonged to in
12     Ottawa in 1996 attended and won its class in that
13     festival.
14  623                  The choirs I sing in in Deep River
15     don't even know that exists, because they don't have
16     access to CBC Two.
17  624                  Where else can we hear other Canadian
18     composers with a discussion of their work and their
19     influences?  Where else can we listen to other choirs
20     in concert and learn from them?
21  625                  Music professionals, teachers,
22     conductors, performers, need to be able to measure and
23     stretch themselves against the yardstick of other
24     interpretations of their repertoire.  We need the input
25     from interview and analysis programs like Eric
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 1     Friesen's and Rick Philip's.  Rick Philips is repeated
 2     on CBC One, but of course it is not in stereo.
 3  626                  On the "Open Line Radio Program" with
 4     Perrin Beatty and CBC senior management in February
 5     several calls came in from different parts of the
 6     country about the lack of CBC Two.  Mr. Beatty
 7     indicated that 75 per cent of the country was covered. 
 8     That would be the population, obviously, not the
 9     territory.  He said they are working on it; that it is
10     a matter of budget.
11  627                  We have great sympathy for the
12     constraints upon the CBC in these past years.  They
13     have done so well under the circumstances.  However, we
14     urge CBC to finish what it started before pouring scare
15     resources into new ventures.  Yes, Internet and other
16     new media will be increasingly important; but for now,
17     they serve a tiny fraction of the population.  The
18     market for CBC Two and La Chaîne exists now and it is
19     more than eager.
20  628                  Mr. Beatty is quoted on the subject
21     of new ventures in an article in The Globe and Mail
22     this past Saturday and he says -- and I am paraphrasing
23     a little bit:  You cannot sit on a couple of channels
24     that get fragmented by an explosion of other
25     alternatives and still do your job of reaching Canadian
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 1     audiences.
 2  629                  He is referring to television, but we
 3     submit that the same applies to radio.  CBC Two and La
 4     Chaîne are the alternatives to commercial and talk
 5     radio, and CBC needs to reach the whole Canadian
 6     population with those signals.
 7  630                  Thank you for your time and
 8     attention.
 9     --- Applause / Applaudissements
10  631                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
11     much, Mrs. Charron.
12  632                  We have our next participant.
13                                                        1604
14  633                  MR. LAHAY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
15  634                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mrs. Charron, is
16     your presentation complete?
17  635                  MRS. CHARRON:  Yes, it is.
18  636                  MR. LAHAY:  Patricia Hatala, please.
19     PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
20  637                  MS HATALA:  I would like to thank the
21     CRTC for affording me this opportunity to make this
22     presentation.
23  638                  Ladies an gentleman, my name is
24     Patricia Hatala.  I come here today as a mother and a
25     nurturer of first my own children, now grown, and now
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 1     my grandchildren.  The CBC for the most part, it seems,
 2     has filled a role which in my view assists its
 3     listeners in many ways to appreciate and learn much
 4     about Canada and its people through programs such as
 5     "Canadian Achievers" and by covering events surrounding
 6     geography, the arts, literature, music, to name a few.
 7  639                  CBC has several programs wherein the
 8     public at large have the opportunity to have direct
 9     input, as in "Cross Canada Check-up", "As it Happens",
10     "Talk Back Line", and other programs which invite talk-
11     back input.  This provides a good opportunity for the
12     public to participate in the public taxpayer funded
13     corporation.
14  640                  This public broadcast facility also
15     keeps Canadians up to speed with what is occurring in
16     other parts of our vast and wonderful country; or to
17     put it another way, keeps Canadians in touch with
18     Canadians.  This is good and by all means should
19     continue.
20  641                  When I informed my husband when I was
21     coming here, he said would you please include this
22     comment for me.  So this is from him.
23  642                  My husband, who watches much
24     television, asks that I include the following
25     observation in my presentation, and I quote:
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 1                            "When I watch an English movie
 2                            on the French channel, the
 3                            translation is done in a voice
 4                            overlay.  When I watch a French
 5                            movie on the English channel,
 6                            more often than not the
 7                            translation is done by means of
 8                            English subtitles." (As read)
 9  643                  Point taken.
10  644                  A positive, respectful moral
11     implication seemed to be discernible in CBC programming
12     in former years.  I do believe that these qualities
13     which aided in setting CBC apart from other
14     broadcasters and was so evident then is waning far too
15     quickly for my liking.
16  645                  Fifteen or 20 years ago, I could turn
17     on the radio to CBC in the morning and leave it on all
18     day without concern as to whether children were
19     listening or not.  At present, not only do I often hear
20     programming that I would prefer children to not hear,
21     but programming which I myself find offensive and/or
22     demeaning, such as the down downbeat, under-achieving
23     attitude portrayed in some of the episodes of the soap
24     opera-like presentation of "Roomers and Boarders".
25  646                  Recently I had occasion to listen to
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 1     the interview of an author who had written a book, the
 2     substance of which was a true story about a prisoner
 3     who had escaped custody on several occasions and was
 4     still at large.  The manner in which the interview was
 5     conducted seemed to give the listener the impression
 6     that this prisoner was some kind of hero.
 7  647                  As recently as last Sunday afternoon,
 8     I heard a program on CBC radio with a dialogue which
 9     included death threats, vulgar innuendos, accompanied
10     by gunshot sounds.  Not good family afternoon
11     entertainment, in my view.
12  648                  Since the nature of the family is the
13     basic unit of society, one might expect the national
14     public broadcaster to carefully consider this unit when
15     setting its format and programming.  Especially of
16     late, it seems, that an anti-traditional family, anti
17     pro-life bias has been reflected in some ways the CBC
18     programming is documented and/or presented.  Within the
19     last six months I have heard interviews during which
20     comments about the traditional family were repeatedly
21     uttered in a demeaning manner, as though anyone in this
22     day and age who believes in traditional family is less
23     than intelligent.
24  649                  When pro-lifers are accused of
25     violence, even though there is no proof of the
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 1     violence, CBC has carried reports of the events; and
 2     instead of interviewing the pro-lifers on the matter,
 3     has interviewed people like Henry Morgentaler instead.
 4  650                  Content such as these previous two
 5     items, coupled with programs on both radio and
 6     television containing violence and programs such as
 7     "The Simpsons", which uses less than polite language
 8     and portrays disrespectful attitudes in family
 9     settings, do little to foster positive personal growth.
10  651                  Commercials, which are becoming more
11     and more sexually suggestive blue ice also do little to
12     foster positive personal growth.
13  652                  As a result of the aforementioned
14     content, one may be left to constantly run back and
15     forth to the television or radio to accomplish the
16     on/off home style censoring one may require if one
17     chooses to have positive content coming into their home
18     on a continuing basis.  The end result of course is
19     that the radio or television ends up being turned off
20     and staying off, with the result that good programming
21     is missed entirely.
22  653                  It would be most helpful and
23     encouraging if our national broadcaster, CBC, carried
24     up-beat programming that families could enjoy together
25     on an ongoing basis.  I do hope that it is an aim of
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 1     our public broadcaster to more consistently carry
 2     programming which serves to promote, peace, harmony and
 3     positive growth of Canadians as individuals and in
 4     communities.
 5  654                  I again thank you for the opportunity
 6     to present my views.
 7  655                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much
 8     for being with us, Ms Hatala.
 9  656                  We will now proceed with the next
10     group of participants.
11  657                  MR. LAHAY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
12  658                  Just one comment.  We had two "no
13     shows" in the second group:  Andrew Atkins and Marjorie
14     Reynolds.  If these two speakers are here, would you
15     let yourselves be known to the Commission, please.
16     --- Pause / Pause
17  659                  MR. LAHAY:  No response.
18  660                  The next group please come to the
19     table:  Marjorie Shaw; Alex MacGregor; Mark Laing; and
20     Edith MacDonald.
21  661                  Please come forward.
22  662                  Would the first presenter please
23     state his name for the record.  Thank you.
24     --- Pause / Pause
25  663                  MR. LAHAY:  Marjorie Shaw, if you are
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 1     in the room, would you please come up as our first
 2     presenter.
 3                                                        1611
 4  664                  Alex MacGregor.
 5     PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
 6  665                  MR. MacGREGOR:  Hi.  My name is Alex
 7     MacGregor from Sudbury; un-Toronto, un-feminist,
 8     un-politically correct, un-AIDS victim, un-Liberal,
 9     un-native, un-socialist, un-sector, un-Progressive, and
10     un-represented on CBC.
11  666                  That is why, among other reasons, I
12     am critical of the CBC and why I am of two minds as to
13     whether the licence of the CBC should be renewed.  It
14     is not clear from your Public Notice CRTC 1998-134
15     whether participants in this forum are to discuss
16     licence renewal.  Therefore, I will confine myself to
17     answering the questions outlined in 3 of CRTC 1998-134.
18  667                  How well does the CBC fulfil its role
19     s the national broadcaster?  Very badly.  The CBC is a
20     vehicle for the conventional wisdom of the Toronto
21     chattering classes.  In the voice of Koran(ph) in the
22     Toronto Sun, the CBC is inhabited by people that go to
23     the same parties, dress the same way and share the same
24     opinions, and have very comfortable incomes.
25  668                  That may be fine.  But the CBC, as a
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 1     national broadcaster, ought to be reflecting the views
 2     of all Canadians and providing a forum for political,
 3     philosophical and geographical diversity of this
 4     country.  I submit to you that this is not what the CBC
 5     is doing.
 6  669                  Let me remind you that the CBC was a
 7     creation of the Conservative government of the day to
 8     provide an alternative to the United States
 9     commercialism and to keep broadcasting in the hands of
10     all Canadians: Liberals, Socialists, Conservatives,
11     religious, non-religious, Natives, Aboriginals,
12     immigrants, all ethnic groups, including WASPS, Jews,
13     Africans, Asians and all else in between.
14  670                  The church is tying itself in knots
15     over exclusive and inclusive language.  The CBC ought
16     to concern itself with including all views and all
17     people.  In other words, the CBC ought to get back to
18     its original mandate from R. B. Bennett and the
19     Conservatives of the time and serve all the people, not
20     only those with a narrow, philosophical and political
21     bent.
22  671                  The CBC serves this region very
23     badly.  I will not reiterate my charges of extreme
24     political bias against CBC Sudbury, but rather point
25     out that the CBC services about 10 per cent of the
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 1     listening audience.  That is appalling.  The 90 per
 2     cent of the people in Sudbury who do not listen to CBC
 3     radio are voting with their ears and with their on/off
 4     switch.  The 90 per cent of people are living lives of
 5     greater intelligence, greater love and greater
 6     compassion than the CBC's super executives drawing
 7     salaries in six figures.
 8  672                  The people of Sudbury do not want the
 9     fare served by the CBC.  Why?  I submit it is because
10     the CBC agenda bears no relation to the lives of people
11     here.  I have railed on publicly and privately and in
12     print about the CBC bias against Mr. Harris.  It is
13     surely possible to be a Mike Harris Conservative and
14     not be in favour of letting babies starve in the
15     street.
16  673                  For example, the CBC ran a contest,
17     "My Greatest Day", and among the winners was a lady who
18     waited for the great day when Mike Harris was defeated. 
19     In other words, the original vision of the CBC has been
20     converted to a vision where Mike Harris is the icon
21     against progress and the advancement of human kind.
22  674                  Rousseau wrote:  Mankind will never
23     be truly free until the last priest is garrotted with
24     the entrails of the last aristocrats.  The CBC variant
25     of that is:  Ontario will never be truly free until
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 1     Ernie Eaves(ph) is clubbed to death by Mike Harris'
 2     last gold club.
 3  675                  It is truly painful to be a Mike
 4     Harris supporter listening to the CBC.  The CBC is not
 5     The Toronto Star.  The Toronto Star, Liberal as it is,
 6     proclaims its bias in its editorial page.  Its news is
 7     more or less balanced.  Its letters to the editors page
 8     is more or less open to dissent.  The CBC, I submit, is
 9     not open to dissent.
10  676                  The CBC ought, not should, to provide
11     programming different from that provided by other
12     broadcasters.  On holiday in Florida I was subjected to
13     private broadcasting ad nauseam.  Even in the USA there
14     is the need for public radio.  The clue here is public. 
15     The clue here is balance and variety.  The clue here is
16     to make the CBC attractive to the 90 per cent who do
17     not listen to it.
18  677                  What is so difficult about that. 
19     Even 50 per cent of listening audience is not too high
20     a figure for CBC Sudbury to attain.
21  678                  There is a special role that the CBC
22     should play in the presentation of Canadian
23     programming.  The "Ideas" series by Lister Sinclair is
24     an example of this.  But surely it is possible to be
25     informative and intelligent and still appeal to a wider
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 1     audience.
 2  679                  Let me introduce you, Madam Chair and
 3     the CBC, to Sudbury.  The Sudbury I know and love is a
 4     world inhabited by entrepreneurs opening restaurants,
 5     boutiques, designing clothes; it is a world of people
 6     and heavy equipment, marketing throughout the world. 
 7     It is a well-travelled world, where young Sudburians
 8     help miners in Indonesia, Guatemala and Honduras.  They
 9     don't want handouts from the government.  Rather, they
10     want tax cuts to continue to create wealth and expand
11     their businesses.
12  680                  Most people in Sudbury attend weekly
13     church, temple or mosque and then go to sports events. 
14     That Sudbury, I submit, is not on CBC.  The CBC Sudbury
15     is union bosses demanding more and more from the public
16     purse. They are on CBC.  Yes, they too are a voice in
17     Sudbury, but not the only voice.  Both should be
18     present on the corporation.
19  681                  They talk and argue on Durham Street,
20     but they are not dialoguing on CBC.  Don't please
21     insult my intelligence by suggesting that this is
22     because of budget cuts and cutbacks.  It is a matter of
23     will and direction by the CBC management and
24     journalists.  The CBC must therefore be reformed.
25  682                  Before I came here, I interviewed a
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 1     lone picketer outside the CBC.  What is going on in the
 2     corporation?  He told me he was receiving $200 a week
 3     strike pay.  Not a lot and the groceries in the freezer
 4     were running low.  Some management personnel were
 5     getting $100,000 and up.  Yet that was not what was
 6     bothering the striker.  What was bothering him was a
 7     lack of direction from the top.
 8  683                  His union had endured layoffs and
 9     budget cuts and he had not had a meaningful raise since
10     1984.  Again, that is not why he was really out on
11     strike.  He was out on strike because of alack of
12     direction and accountability.  He was angry at the
13     waste at the top.  He had seen three remote control
14     systems put in and two were ripped out almost as soon
15     as they were installed.
16  684                  A lonely striker in Sudbury earning
17     about $40,000 and warming his hands before a brazier. 
18     A rich CBC executive earning more than $100,000 warming
19     his Napoleon brandy before a coterie of his fellows
20     Rosedalites is simply not in touch with the striker. 
21     The gap between the striker and the executive is wider
22     than that between the poor of Paris and the aristocrats
23     before the revolution.
24  685                  This may reflect contemporary Canada. 
25     It does not reflect what the CBC was designed to be. 
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 1     Even ni the age of Internet, the CBC's original vision
 2     is still valid.  I would like to see a tough watchdog
 3     organization for the CBC demanding financial
 4     accountability.  But more importantly, returning the
 5     CBC to its original mandate of serving all Canadians
 6     and not preaching to us what we should think.  Life is
 7     too short for us to indulge in CBC political
 8     correctness in place of thought.
 9  686                  Thank you for permitting this
10     presentation.
11     --- Applause / Applaudissements
12  687                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
13     MacGregor.
14  688                  As I noted in my opening remarks, in
15     fact the hearing is on in Hull on May 25th, and you are
16     invited to partake in that hearing as well.
17  689                  Mr. Secretary.
18                                                        1620
19  690                  MR. LAHAY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
20  691                  Mark Laing.
21     PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
22  692                  MR. LAING:  Good afternoon,
23     Commissioners.  I have taken a day off work and driven
24     here from North Bay today because I care very deeply
25     about the CBC.
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 1  693                  With two small exceptions, I will be
 2     restricting my remarks to CBC radio.
 3  694                  I have been a strong supporter of and
 4     a listener to CBC radio all of my adult life.  I
 5     specify "adult", because as a teenager in Sudbury in
 6     the mid-1960s we had no CBC radio.  We had two choices,
 7     both AM: country and rock and roll.
 8  695                  Soon after, we got our first FM
 9     station, which played elevator music.
10  696                  The first time I ever heard CBC radio
11     was when I moved to Toronto in the early 1970s. 
12     Suddenly what an embarrassment of riches opened to me,
13     the likes of Peter Gzowski and Lister Sinclair on the
14     one hand, the beautiful music of Margaret Potu(ph) and
15     dear old Bob Kerr on the other hand or station.  Here
16     was a whole new world of words and music and education
17     for the taking, and I took it.  I still am, in fact,
18     and will until the day I die.
19  697                  A few years after I went south,
20     northeastern Ontario finally did get CBC One, which I
21     was pleased to discover when I returned to the north in
22     1988.  But there was something missing.  About four or
23     five years ago I had the opportunity to ask the local
24     station manager about the possibility of getting CBC
25     Two in this part of the province.  It was then that I
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 1     learned that Thunder Bay had CBC One and Two, but the
 2     money ran out before it could be extended to this area. 
 3     And that seemed to be the end of the story.
 4  698                  I was only too painfully aware of the
 5     devastation wrought on the CBC radio in the ensuing
 6     years, as favourite on-air personalities and features
 7     disappeared and interviews and documentaries were
 8     increasingly repeated.
 9  699                  It became obvious that these good
10     people were operating on a shoestring, and despite
11     their best efforts to hide it, it showed.
12  700                  Now we have this new proposal to
13     create at a CBC Three aimed at a younger audience. 
14     This would be a mistake for at leat three reasons.  It
15     would be an injustice and in insult to this area for
16     the CBC to pour millions of dollars into a new service
17     before ensuring that the 400,000 taxpayers of
18     northeastern Ontario were covered by CBC Two.  This
19     could be done for a tiny fraction of the cost of the
20     new network.  The hardware and personnel are largely
21     already in place.  All we need is a straight repeater
22     feed from Toronto.
23  701                  This would also be a good opportunity
24     to upgrade our CBC One signal from mono to stereo.
25  702                  Two, there is no pressing need for
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 1     the CBC to serve an audience whose needs are already
 2     being addressed by the private sector.  And perhaps
 3     most importantly, without a large infusion of new
 4     money, any such venture would only further dilute the
 5     quality of the existing service.
 6  703                  As you may be aware, the North Bay
 7     symphony orchestra recently suspended operations
 8     because of a lack of public support.  I firmly believe
 9     that the lack of CBC Two was a contributing factor in
10     this demise.  How can you build an audience for good
11     music if the public does not have an opportunity to
12     expose themselves to that music?
13  704                  In closing, I would like to make the
14     following points.  It is imperative that the CBC
15     achieve its independence from the government of the
16     day.  The head of the corporation must be chosen
17     internally and not by the Prime Minister's office.
18  705                  Two, with the help of our so-called
19     ally, the Minister of Heritage, a significant portion
20     of the budget cutbacks of recent years must be restored
21     to radio at least.
22  706                  Three, the CBC already distributes
23     "As it Happens" to many national public radio stations
24     in America.  Could not national public radio give us
25     some of their very best programs in return?  I for one
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 1     would not mind hearing Garrison Carter's(ph) "Prairie
 2     Home Companion" once a week.
 3  707                  That may seem strange, but remember
 4     overnight is all foreign, and it seems it would be a
 5     better alternative having to listen to a five-part
 6     series on "Ideas" being repeated only a year and a half
 7     after it was first broadcast.
 8  708                  Finally, two points about TV.
 9  709                  The national news must not be
10     commercialized.  Such interruptions are jarring and
11     totally inappropriate.  And shows such as Rita
12     MacNeil's and Ralph Benmurgy's(ph) serve an important
13     role as a showcase of Canadian musical talent.  Such
14     exposure is critical if regional talent are to become
15     national starts.  There is no such showcase on CBC
16     television now.
17  710                  There is no more cost-effective way
18     of improving the quality of life in northeastern
19     Ontario than by giving us CBC Two.  The listenership
20     numbers may not be large, but the CBC has always stood
21     for quality over quantity.  The CBC is an important
22     part of my life, and I wish to see it affirmed, renewed
23     and revitalized.
24  711                  Thank you.
25     --- Applause / Applaudissements
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 1  712                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
 2     Laing.
 3  713                  Mrs. MacDonald is not here, Edith
 4     MacDonald?
 5  714                  Then that completes our list of
 6     registered participants for the moment.
 7  715                  I would like to take a short break
 8     and then ask CBC to complete this portion of our
 9     Sudbury visit with their remarks.
10  716                  It is now twenty after four.  We will
11     reconvene at 4:30.
12     --- Recess at 1620 / Suspension à 1620
13     --- Upon resuming at 1630 / Reprise à 1630
14  717                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Please join us at
15     the table.
16  718                  We are also checking to see if there
17     are any participants who would have added their names
18     to the list.
19  719                  It would appear not.
20  720                  We will reconvene.  As I mentioned in
21     my opening remarks, we are asking the CBC at the end of
22     this session and again at the end of the session this
23     evening to make a few remarks.
24  721                  When you are ready, please identify
25     yourself.
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 1     REPLY / RÉPLIQUE
 2  722                  MS FRY:  My name is Mariam Fry.  I am
 3     the Regional Director of Radio for Ontario.  That means
 4     I am responsible for the stations in Ottawa, Sudbury,
 5     Thunder Bay and Windsor.
 6  723                  I have colleagues here who represent
 7     television and French and English radio:  Bruce Taylor,
 8     who represents television; Alain Dorion, who represents
 9     French radio; and Maryse Lairot, who represents French
10     television.
11  724                  I would like, first, to thank all the
12     people who took the time to prepare and to present
13     today.  We have been listening very hard all afternoon. 
14     You have probably seen us furiously scribbling notes. 
15     We plan to get back in touch with each and every person
16     who made a presentation.
17  725                  I would also like to thank the CRTC
18     for making this occasion available to so that we can
19     hear directly from people.
20  726                  What we did hear was that they cared
21     deeply about the future of CBC, both radio and
22     television, and that they feel strongly that they have
23     a role in shaping its future.  We are very glad to hear
24     that.
25  727                  We heard about the importance of both
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 1     local and regional radio and television, as well as a
 2     national service, and the importance of CBC in allowing
 3     Canadians to talk to each other.
 4  728                  One of the things I heard very loud
 5     and clear was the concern about the lack of a Radio Two
 6     outlet in Sudbury, and I am very pleased to tell people
 7     that CBC will be applying within the next year for a
 8     licence for both Radio Two and for La Chaîne culturelle
 9     in Sudbury.
10  729                  Thank you again for your time.
11  730                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much
12     for your comments.
13  731                  That concludes this portion of our
14     consultation in Sudbury.  As you know, we are
15     reconvening at 6:00 p.m. to 10:00 p.m.  We have 13
16     registered participants.
17  732                  Again, if anybody else would like to
18     register, please contact our Secretary.
19  733                  J'aimerais remercier les participants
20     et participantes pour leur collaboration et leurs
21     commentaires sur le sujet de la SRC.
22  734                  Thank you to all the participants. 
23     We will be of course greeting a new group later, at 6
24     o'clock.
25  735                  Thank you to our translation and
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 1     court reporter for this session, and to my colleague
 2     and staff.
 3  736                  We will see you again at 6:00 p.m.
 4  737                  Mr. Secretary, is there anything
 5     else?
 6  738                  MR. LAHAY:  No, Madam Chair.
 7  739                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, all.
 8     --- Recess at 1640 / Suspension à 1640
 9     --- Upon resuming at 1804 / Reprise à 1804
10  740                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  I would like to
11     welcome you to this public consultation; a re-welcome
12     to those of you who were with us earlier.
13  741                  I have some opening remarks which I
14     would like to put on the record.  As you probably know,
15     we will ask our presenters to come to the table.
16  742                  Right now it seems a little odd that
17     there is this big table and you are over there, but as
18     soon as we have completed our opening remarks, we will
19     change the structure of the room a little bit.
20  743                  My name is Joan Pennefather.  I would
21     like to introduce to you my colleague, Barbara Cram. 
22     We are both Commissioners at the CBC.
23  744                  Nous sommes ici pour recueillir vos
24     points de vue et vos commentaires sur la radio et la
25     télévision de Radio-Canada.  Comment croyez-vous que la
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 1     SRC devrait remplir son rôle dans les années à venir? 
 2     Voilà le genre de questions auxquelles nous voulons
 3     entendre vos réponses.
 4  745                  The CBC is a national public service,
 5     broadcasting in English as well as in French.  It plays
 6     an important role in the Canadian broadcasting system.
 7     Today, many elements are constantly being added to the
 8     broadcasting system as new technologies multiply,
 9     converge, open up new horizons, and increasingly offer
10     new services.
11  746                  In this context, we want to know what
12     are your needs and expectations as viewers and as
13     listeners of the CBC.
14  747                  Il est donc très important pour le
15     Conseil d'entendre ce que vous avez à dire à ce sujet. 
16     Il ne faut pas oublier que le CRTC est un organisme
17     public au service des citoyens et citoyennes
18     canadiennes.
19  748                  À ce titre, il a une responsabilité
20     envers eux.  C'est pourquoi mes collègues conseillers
21     et moi-même trouvons essentiel de venir vous
22     rencontrer.  Nous sommes donc présents dans onze villes
23     canadiennes du 9 au 18 mars inclusivement pour tenir
24     cette série de consultations régionales d'un bout à
25     l'autre du pays.
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 1  749                  As I just said, it is very important
 2     that the Commission hears what you have to say.  We
 3     must not lose sight of the fact that the CRTC is a
 4     public organization that serves Canadian citizens.  In
 5     this capacity, we are responsible to you.  This is why
 6     my fellow Commissioners and myself find it vital to
 7     come and meet with you to discuss these issues and why
 8     we are holding this series of regional consultations
 9     from one end of the country to the other, in 11
10     Canadian cities, from March 9th to March 18th.
11  750                  These consultations are designed to
12     give you a chance, on the eve of a new millennium, to
13     express your opinion on the CBC's role, the programming
14     it offers and the direction it should take at the
15     national, regional and local levels.
16  751                  Through these consultations we hope
17     to enter into an open dialogue with you and to hear
18     your concerns.
19  752                  Your comments will form part of the
20     public record which will be added to the record of the
21     public hearing on the CBC that will begin in Hull next
22     May 25th.  At this upcoming hearing the Commission will
23     examine the CBC's application for the renewal of its
24     licences, including radio, television and its specialty
25     services, Newsworld and Réseau de l'information.
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 1  753                  You can also take part in that public
 2     hearing by sending your written comments to the CRTC. 
 3     If you wish to do so, please remember to refer to the
 4     specific licence renewals being examined when you file
 5     your comments.
 6  754                  Tous vos commentaires aujourd'hui
 7     feront partie du dossier public.  Il sera lui-même
 8     ajouté à celui de l'audience publique qui s'ouvrira à
 9     Hull le 25 mai prochain.  C'est au cours de cette
10     audience que le Conseil étudiera les demandes pour
11     renouveler les licences de radio et de télévision de la
12     SRC ainsi que de ses services spécialisés.
13  755                  Vous pouvez aussi participer à cette
14     audience en faisant parvenir une intervention écrite au
15     CRTC.  Vos observations devront alors porter
16     spécifiquement sur le renouvellement des licences en
17     question.
18  756                  Now I would like to come back to
19     today and this evening's consultations.  Please allow
20     me to introduce the CRTC staff who will be assisting
21     us:  Donald Rhéaume, our legal counsel; and Rod Lahay
22     from our Broadcasting Planning Service.
23  757                  Please feel free to call on them with
24     any questions you might have about the process tonight,
25     and on any other matter.
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 1  758                  So that you will all have the
 2     opportunity to speak, we would ask that you please
 3     limit your presentation to ten minutes.
 4  759                  As these consultations are a forum
 5     designed especially for you and we want to listen to as
 6     many participants as possible, we will not ask any
 7     questions unless we need clarification.
 8  760                  At the end of this session,
 9     representatives from the local CBC stations will have a
10     chance to offer their views, as they are naturally very
11     interested in the issues we are discussing here today.
12  761                  Pour que vous ayez tous l'occasion de
13     vous faire entendre, nous vous demandons de limiter
14     votre présentation à 10 minutes.  Ces consultations
15     sont votre tribune et nous voulons être à l'écoute du
16     plus grand nombre possible d'intervenants.  Nous ne
17     poserons donc pas de question, sauf si nous avons
18     besoin de clarification.
19  762                  Après vos interventions, les
20     représentants des stations locales de Radio-Canada
21     auront également droit de parole puisque ce sont les
22     premières intéressées par les questions que nous
23     abordons aujourd'hui.
24  763                  Without any further ado, I will ask
25     Mr. Lahay to explain any further points on the process
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 1     this evening.
 2  764                  MR. LAHAY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
 3  765                  I have a couple of areas of
 4     housekeeping before we get started.
 5  766                  First of all, there are translation
 6     services to my right, if you require the opposite
 7     language.  Please be prepared to provide some type of
 8     identification.
 9  767                  As Madam Chair has indicated, please
10     only ten minutes for your presentations.  And try to
11     watch that.
12  768                  We will be calling the number of
13     presenters, starting with Rudi Steinmar; Mr. Georges
14     Linsey; Mr. Bill Oja; Armand Houle; Martin Potter;
15     Helmut Goebel; Mr. Richard Destefano; Jan Steven; Karl
16     Skierszkan; Sheryl Kennelly; Ronald Brisebois; Walter
17     Halchuk; and Jami van Haaften.
18  769                  Would you please come forward and
19     take a position at the front table, and we will take
20     your presentations in that order.  Thank you.
21  770                  When you do give your presentation,
22     would you please state your name so that we have it on
23     the official record.
24  771                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Would everybody
25     giving a presentation this evening join us at the table
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 1     here, and we will proceed in the order as read.
 2     --- Pause / Pause
 3  772                  MR. LAHAY:  We will start with Rudi
 4     Steinmar.
 5  773                  I will go down the list.  Georges
 6     Linsey.
 7                                                        1813
 8  774                  Thank you, Mr. Linsey.
 9     PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
10  775                  MR. LINSEY:  Good evening.  I would
11     like to think -- as a matter of fact, I know -- that I
12     represent thousands of Canadians from coast to coast to
13     coast who all thank this CRTC body and the CBC for the
14     opportunity for me to speak on their behalf.
15  776                  My request is the field of Canadian
16     old time fiddle music has been sadly neglected in
17     Canada, not in the rural villages, not in the halls,
18     not in the school dances, not in the fiddle contests --
19     of which there are hundreds across Canada.  But I fail
20     to understand that we don't seem to present on the CBC
21     radio, which is our national radio.
22  777                  We look to the CBC for unity, for
23     keeping us from coast to coast together, from
24     Newfoundland to British Columbia to the Yukon.  I have
25     listened to the CBCV quite often, and I think I may
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 1     have heard -- I stand corrected, of course -- five what
 2     are referred to as presentations.  I like the word
 3     "presentations", because it doesn't mean to say that it
 4     has to be regular; it can just be put on when it seems
 5     to be fit.
 6  778                  But that is not correct.  That is our
 7     heritage music.  Canadian old time fiddle music is
 8     played from coast to coast to coast in Canada.  There
 9     are thousands of old time fiddlers, varying in age from
10     four to, I assure you, almost 104.
11  779                  I may be exaggerating there a wee
12     bit, but I wanted to try and impress you.
13  780                  Canadian old time fiddler music is
14     alive and well in every rural village in every part of
15     Canada.  But we need to present it to the Canadians on
16     radio.  We used to be able to tune into a program --
17     some of you won't remember -- referred to as the "Don
18     Messer Program".  If you were doing your chores, it
19     could be on the farm in the village or whatever, from
20     quarter to five, or whatever the time was, you dropped
21     that and you listened to Don Messer.  That was our
22     heritage music he played: jigs, reels, waltzes,
23     strathspeys, name the tunes.  People listened to him
24     faithfully.
25  781                  We want you to renew that.  As I say,
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 1     there are thousands of fiddle contests across Canada
 2     and thousands of fiddlers play -- and I am not
 3     exaggerating -- in thousands of villages from coast to
 4     coast to coast.  Canadian fiddle music is alive and
 5     well in these villages.  We would like to unite them. 
 6     We would like the people in Whitehorse, Yukon to hear
 7     the Maritime fiddlers.  We would like the people in the
 8     Maritimes to hear the Métis fiddle style.  We would
 9     like them to hear the Quebec fiddlers.  We can do this
10     on national radio, on CBC for an hour.  That is not
11     asking too much.
12  782                  "CBC FM proudly presents Canadian old
13     time fiddle music" would make thousands of people very,
14     very pleased and inspire our youth.  You heard in the
15     lobby today some very fine examples of old time fiddle
16     music.  If you didn't tap your feet to that music, I
17     would say your shoes had to be glued to the floor,
18     because that is our heritage music, and we should have
19     that music played on our heritage radio, CBC radio.
20  783                  I believe in that firmly.  I
21     circulated a petition some time ago.  I attended many
22     fiddle contests and I had my little sign there that if
23     you want to hear one hour of good Canadian old time
24     fiddle music on the CBC, sign the petition.
25  784                  I have upwards of 11,000 signatures
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 1     and they are still coming in.  I think that is pretty
 2     impressive.  That's not near the population of the
 3     fiddle fans of old time fiddlers yet.
 4  785                  I have had the promise of a meeting
 5     with a representative of Mr. Alex Frame's office in the
 6     CBC for a meeting so I can know what do you people
 7     expect of our one-hour of old time fiddle music, and we
 8     will certainly present it to you.
 9  786                  This is my plea to you:  one hour of
10     Canadian old time fiddle music with thousands and
11     thousands of Canadian people want to listen to.  That
12     is their heritage music.  It was played in Canada
13     before Confederation.  That is the absolute truth.
14  787                  Having said my piece -- I hope you do
15     understand me -- I relinquish the rest of my time to
16     Mr. Bill Oja, for a purpose which you will see.
17  788                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
18     Linsey.
19                                                        1818
20  789                  MR. LAHAY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
21  790                  Mr. Bill Oja, please.
22     PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
23  791                  MR. OJA:  We came up from Hamilton
24     for this fantastic event.  I have ten minutes, and I
25     had a 34-page brief.  But I think what I will do is
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 1     tell you a couple of things.
 2  792                  In 1970 private radio in Canada
 3     played one song out of 100 Canadian, one song out of
 4     100 in 1970, and that included fiddle music, country
 5     music, whatever.  In 1971, after the CRTC put in the
 6     Cancom, we got 30 per cent; three out of ten songs
 7     Canadian, seven out of ten American.  You walk into a
 8     music store, a video store, 90 per cent of the CDs and
 9     videos are U.S.
10  793                  I have nothing against the U.S.
11  794                  Now, 28 years later, with thousands
12     of Canadian recording artists, it is still 30 per cent. 
13     Thank you goodness for the CBC and the CRTC.
14  795                  Now, the other eight minutes of my
15     presentation I would like to tell you folks what old
16     time fiddling is all about, starting with 8-year-old
17     Nicholas -- who you will meet a little bit later --
18     right to Al Yetman, who is 60.
19  796                  Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome
20     the Northern Ontario Canadian old time fiddlers.
21     --- Audio clip / Clip audio
22     --- Applause / Applaudissements
23  797                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you all very
24     much.  That was great.
25  798                  I guess we will go on to our next act
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 1     -- I mean participant.
 2  799                  Bravo!  Merci.
 3                                                        1827
 4  800                  MR. LAHAY:  Thank you, Madam
 5     President.
 6  801                  Armand Houle.
 7  802                  Helmut Goebel.
 8  803                  Richard Destefano.
 9     PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
10  804                  MR. DESTEFANO:  Thank you.  It is
11     pretty difficult to follow that.  Could we move me
12     forward to a later time.  I am of Italian descent and I
13     could sing some opera, but I'm not sure that would do.
14  805                  I wrote everything out, because I
15     have a tendency to wander and I don't want to do that,
16     because I know how difficult it is for people to sit
17     there.
18  806                  I want to welcome you to Sudbury, if
19     no one has done that.  We are a city of lakes,
20     surprisingly.  There are 37 within the region.  And if
21     no one has offered you that service, I am prepared to
22     pick you up tomorrow morning and take you on tour for
23     half an our or an hour to show you some of the city, to
24     give you a sense of the city.
25  807                  I would be pleased to drive you
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 1     around and give you a presence within the community, to
 2     give you a better understanding of who we are in the
 3     city.  That is open, and you can let me know tonight.
 4  808                  First of all, I want to congratulate
 5     the CRTC for making the effort to come here.  I think
 6     the regional consultations are really critical.  The
 7     place that you meet and the people who come forward on
 8     an individual basis are absolutely critical, because
 9     most people I think don't believe that a pre-
10     consultation prior to a hearing has a very significant
11     influence.
12  809                  I can tell people, from my
13     experience, that it is a very powerful place to be and
14     has a tremendous influence, especially with attentive
15     Commissioners.
16  810                  I believe that without the CRTC --
17     and I am perhaps one of the minority -- the CBC would
18     be bleeding much more profusely.  I think the fact that
19     the CRTC is there hinders government from taking
20     draconian steps to cut the role of the CBC.  The mere
21     presence, even though I know the relationship on
22     funding and implications of directing government, the
23     fact that you are there is really critical.
24  811                  I also know that I can't speak with
25     any authority on Canadian French TV or radio, and it
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 1     would be derelict on my part to even make an attempt to
 2     do so.  I don't understand the language well enough, so
 3     I will make no reference to it this evening. I will
 4     leave that to those who understand it better.
 5  812                  Let's get on with the essential
 6     issue:  the future of the CBC.
 7  813                  I would like to coin a new phrase.  I
 8     came here to praise the CBC, not to bury it.  That is
 9     just an original thought I had this morning.  If that
10     is what you are going to get for the rest of the night,
11     you are in trouble, I assure you.
12     --- Laughter / Rires
13  814                  My whole family grew up on the CBC. 
14     My son, who lives in Chicago, still goes into the
15     Internet every night just to make sure he can catch up
16     on what is going on.  My 22-year-old son who is at
17     Western has the CBC radio on continually.  He doesn't
18     have cable TV, because he can't afford it.  But he does
19     listen to radio.
20  815                  Because we praise it, that doesn't
21     mean that public radio and television and the new media
22     -- which I want to spend some time on tonight --
23     doesn't need cleansing, re-invention, re-engineering,
24     refocusing and establishing self as a global leader in
25     programming and production.  I do not want to abandon
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 1     the CBC in any way, but I think it needs to be washed
 2     out; I think it needs to have its role re-considered.
 3  816                  I would like to embrace the phrase
 4     "pride of place" so clearly enunciated in a recent
 5     speech by Andrée Wylie, the Vice-Chairman of
 6     Broadcasting, to the Atlantic Association of
 7     Broadcasters.
 8  817                  By the way, all the material that I
 9     am presenting tonight came off the Internet: the actual
10     documents, the speeches, the demographics, everything
11     came from the Internet.  I think it is a powerful tool,
12     and I think CBC has a major role to play in that.
13  818                  She talks about, and the Commission
14     has talked about, pride of place.  I think it is
15     absolutely a brilliant statement about the CBC's role
16     and about our whole broadcasting system.
17  819                  The complex mix of media services
18     being offered to Canadians is the cornerstone for the
19     future of the CBC:  52 channels, and some place in that
20     on television I have to find my place as a Canadian.
21  820                  The CBC does a very admirable job on
22     reflecting one region to another on a national basis on
23     English radio, but I am not as convinced that it does a
24     good job on television.  It seems to want to compete
25     with the other major broadcasters.  It seems to want to
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 1     use the same formats, the same designs and the same
 2     applications.
 3  821                  I don't watch CBC television probably
 4     more than four hours a week; I would listen 24 hours a
 5     day, if I could, to radio.
 6  822                  I don't want to reiterate this, but
 7     it does bring the geographical differences together. 
 8     It creates a country that needs to hear, see and talk
 9     to each other, to talk about its successes, its
10     failures, its problems, and it is the only thing I can
11     find within the whole spectrum that brings that to the
12     front.
13  823                  If the CBC were not present, national
14     radio and regional -- on which I am going to place
15     strong emphasis -- we probably would spend most of our
16     time reflecting on the morality of the President of the
17     United States.  We probably would be listening to
18     fishing reports from Upper Michigan.
19  824                  We shouldn't be spending all that
20     time listening to Monica and Bill and all their
21     problems.  Maybe Jean Chrétien should do something
22     exciting so we would have a focus on that.  I am not
23     saying he should do the same thing, just that he should
24     do something exciting.
25  825                  I also think that most people who
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 1     have never read the Broadcasting Act need to look at
 2     Section 3.  I almost think it should be part of your
 3     package.
 4  826                  I would recommend that in the future
 5     you literally put in the Broadcasting Act, Section 3,
 6     because it is absolutely relevant; it was relevant ten
 7     years ago and it will be relevant for the future.
 8  827                  Your vision statement, which most
 9     people don't know about, is quite outstanding in its
10     flexibility and its approach to where broadcasting is
11     going.  I don't think most people in the public even
12     know that there is a vision statement that has been
13     applied.
14  828                  I would suggest that you reconsider
15     your package and look at that, so that people will
16     know.
17  829                  I think the CBC will continue --
18     under the Act it says to "inform, enlighten, entertain
19     and be predominantly and distinctively Canadian".  What
20     better phraseology can we look for for the CBC.
21  830                  It must "reflect Canada and its
22     regions to national and regional audiences while
23     serving the special needs of those regions".  You don't
24     have to redraft the Broadcasting Act or the CBC; you
25     just have to follow what you have said and make sure
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 1     the CBC does.
 2  831                  The problem I am having with the CBC,
 3     in my humble opinion, by the way -- and it is only my
 4     opinion -- is that the CBC spends most of its time
 5     telling Canadians that there is another management
 6     problem in Ottawa, or that we are going to have a new
 7     presents, or we will have an interim president, or
 8     maybe we won't have any president at all.
 9  832                  We hear about downsizing, the
10     relationship between government and the CBC, and now
11     the impending strikes.  We hear rumours about the
12     breakup of regional services and press releases about
13     the ongoing saga of disconnect and alarm.
14  833                  As my son would say to me:  "Give me
15     a break!"  Give me a break from all of that
16     information.
17  834                  Give Canadians a chance to hear about
18     the excellent programs, especially at the regional
19     level.  If we could measure the energy that is expended
20     on the gloom within the CBC by its own station, we
21     could probably light an entire city like Sudbury and
22     never need a hydro commission.  There is just so much
23     time wasted on that.
24  835                  I think the Commission needs to make
25     that clear.  In fact, I would like to see you establish
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 1     -- and I am not saying this facetiously -- an on-air
 2     policy that only allows, and is a condition of licence,
 3     not an expectation, one story of three minutes duration
 4     per week that makes any reference to management issues,
 5     and, like our artists, be scheduled in fringe time
 6     between 12:00 a.m. and 2:00 a.m. in the morning.
 7  836                  It would be a hell of a condition of
 8     licence.
 9  837                  Are you afraid to do that one?  Maybe
10     we will have to show some courage and make some clear
11     statements.
12  838                  The radio and TV programming is
13     excellent.  The quality is excellent.  We are thin in
14     numbers.  It is very evident lately.  I think you are
15     going to hear that often.
16  839                  At the regional level, I can't
17     believe how thin it is in personnel.  But without
18     criticizing the weight of people, it is really quite
19     imaginative and creative, even with the limited
20     personnel that they have.
21  840                  Radio One:  I would love "As it
22     Happens", "Cross Country Check-up", "Tapestry" with Ian
23     Brown, who I know personally, who does a great job;
24     "Madly Off in All Directions", how we can laugh at
25     ourselves on the east coast and look at the rest of
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 1     Canada and laugh at it; "Finkelman's Forty-Fives",
 2     "Vinyl Cafe".
 3  841                  Those are excellent national
 4     programs.  They don't need to be changed.  Let's just
 5     enforce the content in them.
 6  842                  My suggestion for the future of
 7     national radio in English is to encourage the CBC to
 8     continue on its own path to excess, employing the
 9     brightest, creative, energetic Canadian producers and
10     personnel to find its own niche.
11  843                  I would like to emphasize that I
12     think the CBC personnel should be 100 per cent
13     Canadian, absolutely 100 per cent Canadian.  Then we
14     will have Canadian reflection built into production.  I
15     don't know if that is true or not, and I don't know if
16     we can influence that from the CRTC.
17  844                  Encourage the CBC, but don't impose
18     any conditions, except that production programming and
19     personnel must be Canadian, and that they adhere
20     rigidly to the Broadcasting Act.  Let the CBC find its
21     own place.  Don't lay a lot of conditions around it;
22     let it find its own place.  It is struggling, like all
23     other broadcasters. 
24  845                  It will be creative; it will adjust. 
25     It always has.  I know we can't do anything about
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 1     money.
 2  846                  I think we need more people like Rex
 3     Murphy and that guy Finkelmann.  They are absolutely
 4     the new public philosophers.  They have the courage to
 5     say what they think, and I think the CBC has restricted
 6     that kind of dialogue on its radio system and on its
 7     television, to the detriment of us.
 8  847                  The CBC is trying to be to nice.  We
 9     are Canadians.  We always want to be nice.  We need to
10     bring more open line shows, more discussions and talk. 
11     We need to give the hosts in the public sector more
12     chance to express their points of views but let us do
13     it.
14  848                  Jack Webster proved it to be
15     successful.  Why can't we do it on our public radio.
16  849                  Can we go beyond also the two nation
17     discussion that dominates programming and face the
18     reality in TV and radio that we have new faces, that
19     the demographics are changing, that other nations are
20     making up the dominant audiences.  I want to hear more
21     of that in our system.  Go to B.C., go to Toronto. 
22     There is just not the traditional model and the two
23     nations.  We are dominated by that discussion.
24  850                  The CBC is better than most at what
25     it does -- I am going to try and move rapidly -- but
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 1     one area that I think TV and radio needs to do is
 2     increase its story-telling.  We need more dramas on
 3     radio and television that create a rich folklore of our
 4     people and our geography.  We don't see enough of it. 
 5     We try to copy the American model.  We need more
 6     excellence in that field.
 7  851                  Now my theme.  The power of the CBC
 8     is in the regional service.  I, like many others, can
 9     access multiple media on the world, on international
10     affairs. The choice is unlimited.
11  852                  The northern region is critical, and
12     the local CBC service in Sudbury is one of our primary
13     sources of information.  "The Morning Show", with one
14     voice -- one voice at this stage -- does a superb job
15     because it has great producers.
16  853                  There is also a show at noon hour. 
17     It doesn't have the power that the "The Morning Show"
18     has because people are listening.
19  854                  "Points North" is absolutely the best
20     show that I have heard in the last ten years in
21     Sudbury.  It has one voice, probably -- and there are
22     people in the audience who can tell you that --
23     probably one, or two or three, producers maximum.  We
24     are just demolishing the potential for regional service
25     by lack of money and by lack of support.
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 1  855                  "News Updates", one voice.  He does a
 2     great job.  He is in the audience.  But he is one
 3     voice, and it is unfair to him and unfair to us,
 4     because we hear the same voice with the same news, and
 5     he can only do so much.
 6  856                  There is no network without regional
 7     CBC programs.  Please, people need to understand that
 8     networks don't emanate out of Toronto and we have a
 9     national service.  It is regional relationships that
10     count.
11  857                  The regional service is important.
12  858                  The other thing I want to talk about 
13     -- and I will skip through it -- is that the economic
14     benefits of a regional service that comes to this
15     community are significant.  I have done an estimate,
16     but I don't know how accurate it is.  I would bet that
17     with disposable incomes, professional services, we are
18     probably over $1.5 million annually.
19  859                  Don't take away those regional
20     economic benefits from us, because they are part of our
21     economic diversification.  It establishes us as a
22     sophisticated city, and it gives personnel a place to
23     live and grow.
24  860                  Time is running out.  I want to make
25     sure that regional radio and TV stations fulfil a
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 1     mandate.
 2  861                  I have been asked by a group of
 3     musicians to give you this information.  Recently,
 4     there was another attempt by musicians in northern
 5     Ontario to find their place in the Canadian market.  I
 6     attended a workshop in Sudbury last weekend, ably
 7     encouraged by Mark Polumbo(ph), a local businessman,
 8     who wants to expand existing exposure.  "It begins at
 9     home", he said, "and we are not doing enough."
10  862                  I apologize, but we have all kinds of
11     people here who are just great, with no reservations:
12     Chuck Label(ph), Kevin Closs(ph), Erin Benjamin,
13     Melanie's Love Seat, The Elephant Band, Tara Kane, The
14     Smokers, The Easter Dogs, and we have five sound
15     recording studios here.
16  863                  We don't have the exposure. Then Is
17     topped and heard, at ten to 5:00 today and at 5 o'clock
18     today, two local artists being played on the air after
19     I had written this, and I came back and I said:  "My
20     God, I can't say what I am going to say."
21  864                  Maybe I am missing something.
22  865                  They need exposure.  They are
23     Canadian talent and they need a place, the very words
24     that you have.
25  866                  Last comment -- just another two or
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 1     three minutes, if I may.  Thank you.
 2  867                  The new media is exciting and will
 3     capture a unique market segment.  The CBC must continue
 4     its role and in expanding its web capabilities and its
 5     web casting.  I would suggest that if anyone has not
 6     been to the CBC website they are missing an important
 7     and exciting asset that has been implemented for the
 8     new wave of technowizards and the other more mature
 9     technocrats.
10  868                  I spent over 20 hours in the last two
11     weeks listening and playing archive programs from
12     "Ideas" and from a whole range of topics.  I was
13     impressed with the production by Don Hill, who now
14     resides in Sudbury, entitled "Haunted House Haunted
15     Mind, Those Places and Ideas".  It is a reflection of
16     the north, a reflection of its personnel and all of the
17     scary stuff that goes along with it.  It was an
18     excellent production.
19  869                  I am wondering why I am not receiving
20     Radio Two in Sudbury.  I listen to the radio again, at
21     ten to 5:00, and there is an announcement that we are
22     going to get Radio Two in a year.  So I got my
23     information by the radio after I had written this, and
24     I am really excited about that.
25  870                  I downloaded "Shockwave" to hear
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 1     "Sound Bites from the Juke Box", a page for kids.  You
 2     should listen to it; it's super.  The only problem I
 3     had was there are no Canadian songs on the Canadian
 4     kids' juke box.  Now, I stand to be corrected because I
 5     don't know all of the artists, but I said:  "Why aren't
 6     they loading up the juke box for those kids with
 7     Canadian music?"  Why not 50 per cent Canadian talent?
 8  871                  If you are going to impose anything,
 9     50 per cent Canadian talent on the web site.  It has to
10     be produced and get copyright.
11  872                  We need to spend more money.  There
12     are 100 million people worldwide.  They say by the year
13     2010 100 per cent of all homes will be wired.  We can
14     export our expertise, our artists, and we can move
15     forward.
16  873                  I would encourage the Commission to
17     establish a clear set of goals and objectives that is
18     achievable for the CBC in the next three to five years
19     regarding their webcasting; that the CBC consider the
20     importance of Canadian content only -- let's be
21     courageous and say only on its web services; that
22     partnerships with existing Canadian on-line services
23     expand the Canadian exposure to reach its targets.
24  874                  It is important that the CRTC not
25     consider this media computer based Internet delivered
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 1     under any regulatory framework until it is allowed to
 2     find its place.  In fact, I don't think you are ever
 3     going to regulate it.  I don't think you have the power
 4     to; I don't think you have the influence to do it, and
 5     I think we should let them find their own place.
 6  875                  I wanted to talk about changing
 7     demographics, spend more time on CBC.  But I want to
 8     thank you.  I have talked too long.  The invitation is
 9     open tomorrow morning.
10  876                  Thank you very much.
11  877                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
12     Destefano.  If you can leave a copy of your remarks as
13     well, just to make sure we have a full copy, that would
14     be excellent.
15  878                  Thank you very much.
16                                                        1845
17  879                  MR. LAHAY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
18  880                  Our next presenter on the list, in
19     order, is Jan Steven.
20  881                  Karl Skierszkan.  Please come
21     forward.
22     PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
23  882                  MR. SKIERSZKAN:  I will be brief.
24  883                  As the CBC-SRC is publicly funded by
25     Canadian citizens through their federal tax dollars, it
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 1     is essential that its programming reflects the concerns
 2     and interests of those very citizens who pay those
 3     taxes.  The CBC-SRC has taken this task seriously over
 4     its history.  It has fulfilled its role as a national
 5     public broadcaster.  It has undertaken a major feat in
 6     unifying Canadians by allowing us to share national
 7     discussions and to view national events.  That it
 8     broadcast both in English and in French allows us to
 9     remain connected throughout Canada.
10  884                  Personally speaking, that I have been
11     able to listen to French language programs in areas
12     where no French is spoken has helped me, as a
13     northeastern Ontario, to feel comfortable and at home
14     on the west coast, on the prairies and in Atlantic
15     Canada when travelling.
16  885                  The CBC-SRC should continue to
17     encourage discussions on a national level by informing
18     and listening to Canadians across Canada in both
19     languages.  It need not be so concerned with
20     entertaining Canadians in that other privately funded
21     broadcasters are able to do this, but should expand its
22     role in informing Canadians around issues and events. 
23     It should also look beyond more mainstream
24     entertainments in its programming.
25  886                  One difficulty, of course, in a
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 1     country as large as Canada is that there are
 2     interesting things happening in the regions but we are
 3     all looking only at what happens in main centres.
 4  887                  So it could broadcast performing arts
 5     events for more marginal Canadian artists.  It could
 6     broadcast live theatre, concerts and ballets, even if
 7     they are simply cameras from the front of the balcony
 8     aimed at the stage.
 9  888                  That may seem hokey, but it would
10     certainly allow people outside of the main centres to
11     see these things.
12  889                  It could broadcast recorded
13     performances of fringe theatre, such as might be found
14     in Edmonton, nationally; again, as an idea that regions
15     could see what other regions are doing.
16  890                  It could broadcast women's sporting
17     events, like the national university basketball
18     championships, as opposed to simply mainstream events
19     which other broadcasters would pick up anyway.
20  891                  In taking the formative approach,
21     however, with respect to Canadian culture it need not
22     be elitist.  In addition to seeking out to broadcast
23     works from more marginalized artists, it could seek to
24     hear the voices of those disenfranchised, such as
25     displaced workers, rural elderly, traditional people
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 1     having difficulties negotiating the changing times.
 2  892                  And traditional people is not simply
 3     traditional native people, but traditional rural
 4     people, small "c" conservative, who don't necessarily
 5     subscribe to those in power agenda but still feel
 6     threatened by a lot of the changes.
 7  893                  I believe that the French language
 8     radio service needs to radically change.  After 30
 9     years of official bilingualism and multiculturalism
10     there exists many Canadians who are, at least
11     passively, bilingual, francophile, wanting to receive
12     information and opinion and arts in French and who are
13     far removed from Quebec culture.
14  894                  When thinking about it, the French
15     Canadian nation in Canada itself sees itself in
16     relation to the English Canadian nation, but there are
17     many, many French-speaking Canadians who see the
18     mainstream Quebec culture as one which disallows their
19     voices.
20  895                  We need regional French programming. 
21     We would like to have a Canadian French radio service
22     which parallels in every way the English service.
23  896                  Uninterrupted radio service on the
24     highways across Canada would be nice.  As mentioned
25     before, CBC stereo is only available to cable
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 1     television subscribers in Sudbury at this time, but I
 2     have just heard it will change.
 3  897                  Newsworld and RDI are excellent.  The
 4     Canadian public needs to know a lot more background
 5     around the news covered, however.  Political and social
 6     issues need to be better clarified.  Additionally,
 7     there is a need for a lot more economic debate, more
 8     information around economic implications of the various
 9     events, and more information around the economic
10     background of the various events.
11  898                  The Canadian public has few options
12     when looking for honest economic reporting, and the
13     CBC's Newsworld and RDI could fill that need.  Again,
14     there is a perception that the economic reporting we
15     get from governments or from main interests have vested
16     interests and are more slanted.
17  899                  It could also do this economic
18     reporting in a way that minimizes the jargon that
19     distances the Canadian public, who need to know in
20     order that every citizen make responsible decisions,
21     both economically and politically.
22  900                  In summation, let other broadcasters
23     fill the screen with reassuring entertainments,
24     including their versions of the news.  Let the CBC-SRC
25     inform the Canadian public, provide a forum for
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 1     discussion and allow us all to review the works and
 2     performances of Canadian artists and athletes.
 3  901                  Thank you.
 4  902                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 5     much.
 6  903                  Mr. Secretary.
 7                                                        1852
 8  904                  MR. LAHAY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
 9  905                  Our next presenter, in order, is
10     Sheryl Kennelly.
11  906                  Ronald Brisebois.
12  907                  Monsieur Brisebois, s'il vous plaît.
13     PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
14  908                  MR. BRISEBOIS:  Good evening.  My
15     name is Ronald Brisebois.  If I am addressing you this
16     evening, it is to bring to light a persistent problem I
17     find plaguing not so much CBC but many other channels
18     on cable television.
19  909                  I am not so sure if it is a sign of
20     social degradation, but it seems that sexuality and
21     sensuality has become a redundant theme that is
22     unfortunately plaguing home entertainment in all forms
23     of media.
24  910                  My question tonight is:  How is
25     anyone supposed to retain a clear focused mind amid
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 1     such a display of corruption?  And more importantly,
 2     how is one supposed to keep its heart and soul pure
 3     when it is literally bombarded with sexual images on
 4     television, even on commercials?
 5  911                  I refer especially to the program
 6     "Melrose Place".
 7  912                  I find television as a whole in
 8     appropriate, especially for children.  When you
 9     consider that "Melrose Place" is being played at 6:00
10     p.m. and my children can actually view this, I find
11     that extremely inappropriate for my children.
12  913                  I believe it is the responsibility of
13     CBC and CRTC to regulate programs that emphasize
14     education, values and morality.  One value that CBC
15     seems to fall short on is the value of life, as
16     indicated in one program that aired on February 19th of
17     this year, namely "Thou Shalt Not Kill".  This program
18     seemed to attack unjustly the Pro-Life Movement in
19     Canada.
20  914                  Pro-Life, as you probably know, is a
21     peaceful movement which emphasizes silence and prayer
22     during their marches and are pro-life from conception
23     to natural death.  We are against abortion absolutely,
24     while we find all lives to be sacred, and we pray for
25     the conversion of doctors so they may see the truth in
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 1     their work.
 2  915                  The objective of the health care, at
 3     least in my eyes, is to diagnose, heal sickness and
 4     promote recovery, not to kill.  To become pregnant is
 5     not a sickness or a disease; it is a gift.  What
 6     troubles me most is that most clips and spokespersons
 7     used on that program were mostly from the U.S. and some
 8     events dated several years ago.  You did not give the
 9     Canadian view on the issue, but the American view of a
10     few fanatic groups and individuals.
11  916                  I do not want my tax dollars to be
12     used in what could be interpreted as misinformation,
13     because it was slanted on one side.  Pro-Life hardly
14     had a word in there.  Anything that came from Pro-Life
15     was always from the States; there was not really any
16     view from Canadians, like the directors of Alliance for
17     Life, or Pro-Life.
18  917                  On a positive note, CBC seems to be
19     one of the leading channels on television when it comes
20     to family programming.  I was just enjoying the other
21     evening Walt Disney with the children, for example; and
22     a show I used to watch a lot was "Road to Avonlea".
23  918                  These are programs that I look
24     forward to spending quality time with my children. 
25     Personal favourites are also the hockey games and a
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 1     certain program, "Life and Times", that brings about
 2     Canadian nationalism, pride, showing the lives of
 3     Canadians that are too often forgotten or overshadowed
 4     by American television.
 5  919                  Perhaps my only recommendation is
 6     that television is a tool that could be used to better
 7     people, to educate them, to open people's eyes to a
 8     world around them, but it must be done in a manner that
 9     is objective, presenting both sides of the argument
10     equally for Canadians, to be educated impartially,
11     especially on social issues and news coverage, for what
12     you show literally plays a significant role and
13     influence in the lives of Canadians.
14  920                  I thank you for your time.  Good
15     evening.
16  921                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
17     much.
18  922                  Mr. Secretary.
19                                                        1855
20  923                  MR. LAHAY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
21  924                  Walter Halchuk, please.
22     PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
23  925                  MR. HALCHUK:  That is a copy of my
24     presentation so that you have it there.
25  926                  First of all, I am here from the
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 1     Ukrainian Canadian Congress.  I am also a member of the
 2     Canadian Civil Liberties Association, and I am on the
 3     national board of directors with the Congress and their
 4     Justice Committee.
 5  927                  My presentation is also as the
 6     Council Chair in Sudbury, but it deals on issues that
 7     are provincial as well as national.  I will go on with
 8     my presentation.
 9  928                  The Ukrainian Canadian Congress
10     (UCC), founded in 1940, with its regional councils and
11     branches, represents the Ukrainian Canadian community
12     before the before our provincial
13     governments and before the city and/or regional
14     governments throughout Canada -- a Ukrainian-Canadian
15     parliament, if you will.  It serves as a unifying forum
16     for efforts and programs of the various Ukrainian
17     organizations across Canada, promotes linkages with
18     Ukraine and addressed the needs and concerns of the
19     Ukrainian community in Canada.
20  929                  We welcome the opportunity to present
21     our views to the CRTC on the programming and operation
22     of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation (CBC).  Our
23     Prime Minister, the Right Honourable Jean Chrétien,
24     during his recent official visit to Ukraine,
25     underscored the importance of the Ukrainian community
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 1     to Canada's cultural and economic policies.  The
 2     Sudbury Council of the Ukrainian Canadian Congress
 3     trusts the CRTC agrees with our Prime Minster and will
 4     fully consider our views.
 5  930                  One of the questions that was put in
 6     as guidelines was:
 7                            "How well does the CBC fulfil
 8                            its role as the national
 9                            broadcaster?"
10  931                  And here we are primarily addressing
11     the English languages programs in radio, TV and the
12     Internet.
13  932                  Generally, the CBC fulfils its role
14     well, in particular radio, but there is definitely room
15     for improvement.  The CBC itself recognizes that fact
16     -- and I quote:
17                            "Even the most rigorously
18                            managed journalistic
19                            organization may once in a while
20                            abuse the freedom it enjoys or
21                            allow its journalists to lose
22                            sight of their professional
23                            responsibilities.  The Canadian
24                            Broadcasting Corporation is not
25                            immune to such errors but
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 1                            remains determined to achieve
 2                            the highest possible standards. 
 3                            The CBC is fully committed to
 4                            maintaining accuracy, integrity
 5                            and fairness in its journalism." 
 6                            (As read)
 7  933                  By the way, this is from the CBC
 8     Internet site, and anybody can access that, which I
 9     believe is an example to many others.
10  934                  What is that commitment?  According
11     to CBC's own document entitled "Informing Canadians:
12     CBC Journalism in the 1990s", this public broadcaster
13     makes the following commitment to the citizens of
14     Canada:
15                            "The CBC belongs to the people
16                            of Canada.  The purpose and
17                            responsibility of its journalism
18                            is to contribute to their
19                            citizenship, to their need to be
20                            informed, and to understand the
21                            divers society of which each of
22                            them is part...The people who
23                            make up the audiences for its
24                            programs are perceived not as
25                            consumers but as citizens --
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 1                            citizens who must constantly be
 2                            informed and stimulated so that
 3                            they may adequately discharge
 4                            their responsibilities as
 5                            members of a democratic
 6                            community."
 7  935                  Based on this commitment, we have
 8     found the CBC lacking.  In its laudable quest for
 9     excellence, the CBC has lost sight of relevance.  The
10     citizenship is being informed, but only in part, as
11     this understanding of the "diverse society" must first
12     be revisited by the CBC itself.  We would like to help.
13     Fact or not, the perception across Canada is that the
14     CBC's accuracy, integrity and fairness has suffered.
15  936                  We are confident that the CBC wishes
16     to diligently discharge its stated responsibility, but
17     with the recent focus on resources and not on the job
18     at hand -- I believe Mr. Destefano mentioned a
19     condition for relicensing; he did it a little more
20     eloquently than this -- the CBC has been distracted.
21  937                  Ready productions that may "not be to
22     the normally high standards of the CBC", but which are
23     very meaningful to the ethno-cultural communities of
24     Canada received dismissive, bordering on
25     discriminatory, attention.  I speak of the award-
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 1     winning films "Harvest of Despair" and "Freedom Had a
 2     Price".
 3  938                  The Ukrainian Canadian community had
 4     to organize a national lobbying effort to get both
 5     "Harvest of Despair" and "Freedom Had A Price", shown
 6     on CBC.  This despite the fact that these films were
 7     Canadian made, largely Canadian financed documentary
 8     films, made by a Canadian film maker, and of interest
 9     to a significant number of Canadian taxpayers --
10     especially in the light of 1998 being the 65th
11     anniversary of the great famine in the Ukraine.
12  939                  It was very meaningful.
13     --- Foreign language / Langue étrangère
14  940                  When members of our community
15     throughout Ontario were asked "What does CBC do for us,
16     as Canadians of Ukrainian heritage?", the answers were
17     passionate and heartfelt.  Most did not feel included
18     and often felt insulted or ignored.
19  941                  For example, during the Olympic games
20     in Nagano, the CBC had "nothing" to say about the teams
21     from Ukraine.  The commentators were not prepared. 
22     They did not know that to a large Canadian population
23     whose roots are in Ukraine that gaff was an insult. 
24     This lack of sensitivity also took the form of a polite
25     but condescending reply to my personal inquiry as to
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 1     this gaff -- 41 days later.
 2  942                  One respondent to the survey said the
 3     following:
 4                            "There are ample examples of CBC
 5                            productions that focus on
 6                            Britain or French Canada or
 7                            native Canadians.  Rarely, if
 8                            ever, they..."
 9  943                  And this is the CBC.
10                            "...do anything having to do
11                            with Ukrainians in Canada or
12                            Ukraine, except for the very
13                            rare mini-documentaries about
14                            'men in sheepskin coats'...which
15                            most of us aren't, and never
16                            were, and don't have any direct
17                            link to."
18  944                  Another:
19                            "If the CBC is to 'serve the
20                            public', why doesn't the CBC do
21                            a piece on the internment
22                            operations in Canada during
23                            World War I?  That's Canadian
24                            history!  Or on Philip Konowal
25                            as a Canadian Victoria Cross
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 1                            winner."
 2  945                  One thread that ran through most
 3     responses was the distressing perception that speaks to
 4     the commission not merely omission of actions and
 5     comments.  Many in our community, young and old alike,
 6     believe there to be an anti-Ukrainian bias at the CBC. 
 7     Intended or not, the perception exists and must be
 8     addressed.
 9  946                  Many are tired of the repeated
10     pairing of the terms Ukrainian and alleged Nazi war
11     criminal.  The Ukrainian Canadian perspective on the
12     war crimes issue is rarely heard.  Right now we have
13     several hearings that have just concluded while others
14     are continuing, yet the CBC does not cover those
15     stories, or appears after it's all over to promote
16     stories about thousands of World War II war criminals
17     in our midst.  These are exaggerated and misleading
18     stories as ruled by the Duschenes Commission.
19  947                  One example of one-sided reporting
20     was an interview on Wednesday, July 22, 1998,
21     approximately 6:20 a.m. (Pacific Time), on CBC Radio
22     One with Mr. Silverstone, Council for the Canadian
23     Jewish Congress, extolling the pursuit of Nazi war
24     criminals.  No alternate view to balance Mr.
25     Silverstone's bias was given.  The whole idea of one-
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 1     sided presentation must be viewed as promotion rather
 2     than reporting, and is unworthy of the high standards
 3     of the CBC.
 4  948                  We in turn were asked:
 5                            "Why do they [CBC] on the one
 6                            hand afford a platform to people
 7                            who are circulating 'hate
 8                            literature' in Canada and why,
 9                            on the other, wouldn't CBC cover
10                            a story like tax receipts being
11                            issued by political lobby groups
12                            like the Friends of the Simon
13                            Wiesenthal Center -- a story
14                            that appeared in The National
15                            Post?"
16  949                  Where was the CBC?
17  950                  If you notice, the respondents use
18     the term "they" when referring to the CBC.  It is not
19     their public broadcaster.
20  951                  The feeling of citizenship must not
21     be a hollow one.  Without at least the perception of
22     membership, belonging or inclusion, the CBC is in fact
23     discouraging the participation of large numbers of
24     Canadians in a democratic society, and is certainly not
25     the stimulating force it is mandated to be.
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 1  952                  The next point was:
 2                            "In the new millennium, should
 3                            the CBC fulfil its role in a
 4                            different manner than it has in
 5                            the past?"
 6  953                  The answer is obvious and will be
 7     address in our recommendations, and they are at the end
 8     of this.
 9  954                  Next:
10                            "Should the programming provided
11                            by CBC radio and television be
12                            different from that provided by
13                            other broadcasters?  If so, what
14                            should those differences be?"
15  955                  Certainly it should be different. 
16     The CBC's commitment to citizenship must remain, and in
17     so doing Parliament must financially recognize the
18     civil service provided.  The Government of Canada must
19     continue to significantly invest in this venue for
20     better citizenship.
21  956                  In conclusion, the Sudbury Council of
22     the Ukrainian Congress, in its willingness to help,
23     suggests strongly the following:
24  957                  1.  That the federal government
25     allocate additional funding to reflect the multifaceted
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 1     citizenship role undertaken by the CBC.
 2  958                  2.  The formation of a CBC ethno-
 3     cultural advisory council.  Such a council will clearly
 4     demonstrate to management and staff a commitment to the
 5     fundamental principles entrenched in the "Broadcasting
 6     Policy Reflecting Canada's Cultural and Linguistic
 7     Diversity".  "Ethnic" news is Canadian news.
 8  959                  3. Provide sensitivity training to
 9     staff and management on the multicultural reality of
10     Canadian society.
11  960                  I believe Mr. Destefano also touched
12     on that.
13  961                  4.  Designate staff and resources
14     needed to implement and support Nos. 2 and 3 -- which
15     is the council and training.
16  962                  5.  Establish a liaison position with
17     the Ukrainian community.
18  963                  6.  Hire more journalists already
19     sensitized to Canada's ethno-cultural diversity.
20  964                  7.  Focus on cross-cultural issues
21     such as the Genocide Museum, a unique Canadian approach
22     to recognizing man's inhumanity to man.  A model for
23     the rest of the world.
24  965                  8.  Rebroadcast programs from CBC's
25     international service to Canadian audiences.
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 1  966                  This is excellent programming.  Few
 2     people hear about it.
 3  967                  9.  Redistribute CBC's overseas news
 4     bureaus in a manner that reflects the multicultural
 5     nature of Canadian society.  Such a restructuring will
 6     provide a fresh variety of reports and gain the CBC
 7     greater market share.
 8  968                  Thank you for your time.  I believe
 9     that's it.
10  969                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Than you very much,
11     Mr. Halchuk.
12  970                  Mr. Secretary.
13                                                        1908
14  971                  MR. LAHAY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
15  972                  Jami van Haaften, please.
16     PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
17  973                  MS VAN HAAFTEN:  I have already
18     submitted my notes for your file.
19  974                  It is hard to limit my feelings about
20     the future of the CBC to ten minutes and talk about
21     both radio and television services.  They are two
22     distinct services and two which I think are vital if we
23     are to continue as an informed and entertained 
24     Canadian culture.
25  975                  My concern about the future role of
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 1     the CBC relates to access.  I have used Stats Canada
 2     census data to make my point in graphic sense.
 3  976                  Less than 1 per cent of Canadian
 4     households are without at least one radio or television
 5     set.  Clearly, ownership of either appliance allows
 6     about 99 per cent of Canadian households to tune in to
 7     CBC radio or television.  However, my access in the
 8     various Ontario cities I have lived in has been
 9     affected by the quality of the signal, the programming
10     choices made by recent regional managers, and more
11     recently by what I can only get through use of a cable
12     television subscription.
13  977                  Using Stats Canada numbers, 26 per
14     cent of Canadian households which do not have cable do
15     not have access to either Newsworld or CBC Radio Two.
16  978                  When you move into newer Internet
17     based technologies, you are limiting access even more. 
18     In 1996, according to Stats Canada, only 7 per cent of
19     Canadian households were using the Internet.  This is
20     not an argument to stop using the Internet to duplicate
21     or enhance CBC broadcast services.  However, don't lose
22     sight of the fact that a nationally funded broadcast
23     service should be freely accessible by everyone.
24  979                  There have been many times I felt
25     isolated and cut off from services the CBC offered.  I
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 1     am old enough to remember the introduction of
 2     television to the community I lived in, during the
 3     early 1960s.  It seems to me the test pattern was on
 4     most of the day, and we tended to watch programs in the
 5     evening.
 6  980                  The experience was repeated in 1980,
 7     to a lesser extent, when I lived in Red Lake, Ontario.
 8  981                  By the time I was living in Roslin, a
 9     community north of Belleville, with a young family, I
10     knew what services were available in bigger cities and
11     towns and what I didn't have.  For some reason the FM
12     radio signal was fairly weak and hard to find on the
13     dial.  It took the Gulf War to bring Newsworld
14     programming to my television for a brief period. 
15     Otherwise, I only enjoyed it when I visited my mother
16     in The Sioux, where she had cable service.
17  982                  There are many successes which the
18     CBC can claim, including quality journalism and the
19     strength of their regional radio program, which for
20     some reason I appreciate more now when I am living in
21     northern Ontario.  The biggest improvement to CBC's
22     television service could be to make it more like radio. 
23     A stronger regional service is a foundation for
24     national program, both information and entertainment;
25     commercial-free programs; a common program schedule;
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 1     and predominantly Canadian content.  Then we would have
 2     a truly choice blend of news, information and
 3     entertainment.
 4  983                  There are challenges too.  Funding
 5     cuts threaten the staffing levels and resources
 6     available to produce quality programs.  Both should be
 7     protected in order to make the national service that
 8     much more relevant to all Canadians.  The second
 9     challenge is to use available technology to move beyond
10     a public broadcast service owned by all Canadians to
11     one which can be freely accessed by all Canadians.
12  984                  Thank you.
13  985                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
14     much, Ms van Haaften.  We appreciate your being here.
15  986                  Mr. Secretary, we should recall some
16     of the names we had on the list.
17  987                  MR. LAHAY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
18  988                  Rudi Steinmar; Armand Houle; Martin
19     Potter; Helmut Goebel; Jan Steven; Sheryl Kennelly.
20  989                  No response, Madam Chair, for any of
21     the names.
22  990                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
23     much.
24  991                  As I said earlier, two points:  One,
25     our approach to these consultations is to spend as much
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 1     time as possible listening to what you have to say, and
 2     hence we are not asking questions.  That is in no way
 3     an indication of lack of interest.  As was said by one
 4     of the participants, this is a very important process
 5     for us, and your input is key to future decision-
 6     making.
 7  992                  The other point is that, as earlier
 8     in the day, we ask CBC to join us at the end of the
 9     session to give us come comment on what they have
10     heard.
11  993                  I would ask that that occur again.
12  994                  Do you need a short break before we
13     do that, or can you proceed?
14  995                  MR. TAYLOR:  I am fine.
15                                                        1914
16  996                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  All right; thank
17     you.
18     REPLY / RÉPLIQUE
19  997                  MR. TAYLOR:  My name is Bruce Taylor. 
20     I am the Regional Director of Television for English
21     Television in Ontario.
22  998                  On behalf of my colleagues from
23     English radio and French radio and television, I would
24     like to thank very much all of those who took the time
25     to prepare submissions for the CRTC tonight and to
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 1     bring them forward, and this afternoon as well.
 2  999                  To digress, I think this evening we
 3     were treated to one of the most entertaining
 4     submissions that I have ever heard at a CRTC gathering.
 5  1000                 I would also like to thank the CRTC
 6     for providing the opportunity for us to hear, first-
 7     hand, from those people for whom we deliver these
 8     services.
 9  1001                 In the audience tonight, among the
10     CBC people here, are Miriam Fry, my colleague
11     representing English radio; Alain Dorion, representing
12     French radio; and Maurice Lariault, representing French
13     television.  We have all been making very careful notes
14     and paying careful attention to what has been said.
15  1002                 We will endeavour to get back to
16     those who made presentations on the specific issues
17     which were raised.
18  1003                 That is all I have to say, except
19     thanks again.
20  1004                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
21     much, Mr. Taylor.
22  1005                 I was just conferring with my
23     colleague, and indeed, as it is 7:15 and we announced
24     that this session was on until 10:00, we will take a
25     short break but we will stay here for a while to make
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 1     sure that if people come in a little later, they may
 2     want to join us.
 3     --- Off microphone / Sans microphone
 4  1006                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  By all means.
 5  1007                 Again, we can go back to CBC if there
 6     is another comment you wish to make.
 7                                                        1918
 8  1008                 If you could, would you tell us who
 9     you are -- if you would; not if you could.
10     PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
11  1009                 MR. REID:  Sometimes maybe not.  My
12     name is Paul Reid.  I am a businessman in Sudbury.  I
13     am a past President of the Chamber of Commerce here.
14  1010                 I would like to welcome you to
15     Sudbury.  I think the hearings into the relicensing of
16     the CBC are very crucial, at a crucial time.  I think
17     that if we go with the status quo that we have accepted
18     in the past, the next time it comes up, in three or
19     five years, we won't be talking about it.  I think it
20     has to change.
21  1011                 I think you have to take a look at
22     accountability.  I see the Chair of the CBC Board is
23     talking about accountability.  I think you have to say: 
24     How many people listen to the service?  I think the
25     numbers are less than 10 per cent of the national
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 1     audience.  I think it is a shame.
 2  1012                 I listen to it.  I like the regional
 3     programming.  I listen to it here in the morning,
 4     because it is the only way you can find out what is
 5     going on around northern Ontario.  I listen to the
 6     national radio when I am driving.  I like the programs
 7     on CBC TV -- I like some of them, not all.
 8  1013                 I think we don't do a good job in
 9     this mandate of getting Canadians to talk to one
10     another, back and forth.  I think it is Toronto-
11     centered, Montreal-centred.  There are other things
12     happening in this country outside those two centres.  I
13     think that we ought to focus on that, as some of the
14     other people have said.  We should do that with the new
15     technologies.
16  1014                 I see that part of the vision of the
17     current President of the CBC is to add another youth
18     channel, and he is going to operate it out of the
19     existing money.  I have been listening and, as a
20     businessman, he keeps telling me that there is no money
21     in that budget.  I don't think you can add any
22     additional services until you correct what you are
23     doing now.  I don't think the Canadian people are going
24     to really care.  It is a shame because this is a
25     valuable service, and I think it is very important as a
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 1     nation to be able to talk to one another from this
 2     coast to that coast, back and forth, north and south,
 3     east and west.  I think it is key to keep this country
 4     together.
 5  1015                 I am prepared to invest the money and
 6     the time in it, and I think that is why I came here
 7     tonight to talk about it, because I don't think anyone
 8     is talking about the organizational structure.
 9  1016                 I think that if you okay the vision
10     and add a Radio Three, it takes away resources from
11     Radio One and Radio Two.  Let's have Radio One.  Let's
12     have the feed from the regions.  Let's have a national
13     service so we can talk to one another.  Let's do it
14     well.
15  1017                 The same on the TV side.  I don't
16     know whether, with all the choices today, that we can
17     divvy up the market.  I think the key thing to look at
18     is content that you have to sell.  I don't think there
19     is enough content.  We are not putting the resources. 
20     We have repeats on the radio; we have repeats on TV.
21  1018                 "The National" starts at 9:00 on
22     Channel 14, goes to 10:00 on Channel 8 here locally,
23     and repeats again.  That is how they say they get some
24     numbers, but it doesn't work.
25  1019                 I say let's take a look at what we
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 1     are doing now and let's make it better and address the
 2     structural problems.  We have to get some
 3     accountability here, and we have to focus on the core
 4     operation before we add anything else to this
 5     operation.  I think it is key.
 6  1020                 In the TV side, I think we ought to
 7     eliminate advertising off it.  I think it ought to be
 8     funded properly so they don't have to do a begging
 9     number, like TVOntario does all the time, interrupting
10     all the programming.  I don't like that.  If citizens
11     felt that they were getting something, I think they
12     would pay for it.
13  1021                 I don't like the special tariff idea
14     based on cable subscription.  Pay it out of the general
15     revenues, tax revenues of this country, but do it well.
16  1022                 I think it is key that we look at a
17     couple of things:  focus the operation, look at the
18     content, put the resources in.  We need it.  I think
19     that if we don't, we won't be here in a few years
20     talking about the renewal.  I think it will die, those
21     options.
22  1023                 I think it is a real challenge.  I
23     think it is an exciting time, both for the corporation
24     and for the regulators in this country, to take a look
25     at how you could change it.  I think that the Canadian
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 1     public is interested.  A lot of people won't speak up. 
 2     You have started with this discussion and you can
 3     pursue it along, but I think you have to look at where
 4     we are now, how we can build on it before we add
 5     anything and make the system accountable.
 6  1024                 When you read about some program that
 7     is critically acclaimed, excuse me, to me, that means
 8     no one watched the damn program.  I want to see some
 9     numbers.  I don't mind spending if I get something. 
10     And I don't mind if it is fringe programming.  I want
11     to see something.
12  1025                 Somebody has got to want to watch
13     this thing other than somebody who sold some producer
14     on the concept.  Somebody has got to watch.  And it
15     should be some numbers, some significant numbers.
16  1026                 I think that is key, and I don't
17     think that is too much to ask of the public dollar. 
18     That is basically what I want to say.
19  1027                 Thank you for the opportunity. 
20     Again, thank you for coming to Sudbury and giving us
21     this opportunity to talk.
22                                                        1924
23  1028                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  We
24     appreciate your joining in the conversation.
25  1029                 Is there anyone else in the audience
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 1     who would like to come to the table to make some
 2     remarks?
 3  1030                 Sir -- and I will get this right this
 4     time -- would you kindly tell us who you are.
 5     PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
 6  1031                 MR. JENNINGS:  My name is Alan
 7     Jennings.  I am an engineer and scientist.  I have
 8     lived in Sudbury for 32 years.
 9  1032                 Good evening.  Thank you for this
10     opportunity.
11  1033                 I do not have a prepared
12     presentation, because I only recently learned of the
13     fact of your visit, but there are some things about the
14     topic which do concern me.  I am not coming from a
15     position of any particular bias, but I do perceive
16     certain things which I would like to suggest may be of
17     interest to you and should be watched in the future.
18  1034                 I would agree that CBC has many, many
19     excellent programs, and my remarks would also take CBC
20     in the context of television programming in general,
21     rather than particularly CBC.  I would like to make
22     some observations about CBC and the other channels
23     which seem to me to have a similar focus at time.
24  1035                 One of my concerns is the
25     superficiality of many of the programs, particulary
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 1     political programs lacking in depth, frequently biased,
 2     in my opinion. And I try to take a reasonably detached
 3     view.  I don't have any particular axe to grind.
 4  1036                 Sometimes one has the impression that
 5     the public is a mass to be manipulated.  For example,
 6     one frequently can perceive within advertisements a
 7     political agenda, whether it be feminism, sexism, or
 8     Quebec separatism.  I believe there is frequently a
 9     lack of objectivity and depth of investigation.
10  1037                 Another subject that concerns me,
11     being an engineer and scientist, is that science is not
12     well treated on television.  If you want an example,
13     the handling of global warming is a very distorted
14     viewpoint which has very little scientific backing
15     quite frequently.
16  1038                 There is frequently a focus on
17     triviality, violence and sex, and tacky ads.  I think
18     the standards of some of the advertisements that are
19     shown on television are (a) politically biased and (b)
20     objectionable from a taste point of view.
21  1039                 If you want me to quote an example, I
22     think one gets a little tired of ads for diarrhoea
23     medicines and hygiene products, of which there seems to
24     be an interminable number.
25  1040                 I perceive that there is in fact
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 1     little attempt to draw the country together.  Again,
 2     what is done is largely superficial. I think there
 3     could be a much greater effort to present, for example,
 4     what Quebeckers think.  I believe that there is biased
 5     comment in favour of separatism within the programs
 6     that we see.
 7  1041                 I would like to suggest that the
 8     numbers of people who listen to a particular program is
 9     not a major criterion as to (a) its effectiveness or
10     (b) its desirability.  You may aim at a small audience
11     for a particular reason.
12  1042                 What I am suggesting is that we
13     should not necessarily follow the lowest common
14     denominator in terms of programming; that some times
15     you aim for an audience of perhaps people who may wish
16     to change the political system in which large numbers
17     of people are not interested.  But that doesn't say
18     that we shouldn't have politically oriented programs,
19     provided they are balanced and not distorted or biased.
20  1043                 I think it was clear from some of the
21     other comments that were made that I am not the only
22     person who is concerned about bias, integrity and
23     fairness or accountability.  I would like to suggest
24     that you have an awesome responsibility and that some
25     of these problems need a very carefully selected range
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 1     of opinion.  Frequently opinion seem to me to have been
 2     either self-selected that are broadcast or selected
 3     from a relatively small number or a limited
 4     perspective.  Shall I put it that way.
 5  1044                 I would like to see some more
 6     objectivity, an examination of serious issues which
 7     affect the country in depth.
 8  1045                 I still don't know exactly what
 9     Quebec would really like to have, despite innumerable
10     programs: the depth, the penetration of what people are
11     really after and whether this is in fact economics or
12     whether it is emotional, history, traditional, or what. 
13     I don't think we are getting at these major topics in
14     any appreciable depth.
15  1046                 I would like to thank you for the
16     opportunity to throw in a few fairly unprepared
17     comments.
18  1047                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
19     much, Mr. Jennings.
20  1048                 I think what we might do is take a
21     short break.  As I said earlier, we had planned to go a
22     little later, so we will hold on in case somebody joins
23     us later in the evening.
24  1049                 Mr. Secretary, has anybody come into
25     the room from the registered list that you read out
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 1     previously?  Perhaps you could check again.
 2  1050                 MR. LAHAY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
 3  1051                 We will go over the list again to see
 4     if anybody has entered the room since we did it a
 5     little while ago.
 6  1052                 Rudi Steinmar; Armand Houle; Martin
 7     Potter; Helmut Goebel; Jan Steven.
 8  1053                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Sheryl Kennelly?
 9  1054                 Si vous voulez, on va prendre une
10     pause de dix minutes.  We will break for ten minutes
11     and come back at 25 to eight and see if anybody joins
12     us at that time.
13  1055                 Thank you.
14     --- Recess at 1925 / Suspension à 1925
15     --- Upon resuming at 1935 / Reprise à 1935
16  1056                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  All right, we are
17     going to -- on va recommencer.  We will reconvene.  I
18     have two people to invite to the table.
19  1057                 Monsieur Ouellette, I believe you
20     expressed an interest, and Mr. Halchuk will also return
21     to the table.
22  1058                 MR. LAHAY:  If you wouldn't mind
23     stating your name, please, for the record.
24     PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
25  1059                 MR. OUELLETTE:  My name is Leonard
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 1     Ouellette.  I am an employee with the Conseil scolaire
 2     catholique du nouvel Ontario.  I was born and raised in
 3     Sudbury, for 40 years.
 4  1060                 It makes me a little bit nervous to
 5     come up and speak here.  I am not a spokesperson, but I
 6     have a few words to say.
 7  1061                 I am a little bit surprised on what I
 8     am hearing, because I really thought this was strictly
 9     for radio, but I believe it is for television as well. 
10     I don't have much to say for television, for the fact
11     that I just watched the news.  I don't watch much
12     television.  Therefore, I am only going to comment on
13     what I think of the radio and what it does for me in my
14     life.
15  1062                 I believe CBC radio attracts people
16     who listen, a type of people who want to know what is
17     going on nationally, locally and provincially.  It also
18     attracts the kind of people who don't want to hear
19     constant commercial, advertising and music that is
20     repetitious and gets on your nerves in the long run. 
21     It attracts people who want to listen to conversation,
22     and what not.
23  1063                 I am not one to write or call in to
24     the radio.  I am a typical listener, who listens and
25     enjoys what is being said.  I like their programs from
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 1     top to bottom, on how it is presented and how it is
 2     offered.  I think it is critical in the sense that any
 3     other local radios do not offer this.  It is strictly
 4     based on the bottom line, so therefore lots of
 5     advertising and gibberish and ridiculous humour and
 6     what not.
 7  1064                 I would also like to point out that I
 8     do listen to all stations in Sudbury.  I am bilingual
 9     and I listen to the CBC, the university station and the
10     other locals.  But when I want a little bit of peace
11     and what not, the CBC is what I like to listen to.
12  1065                 I heard some statistics that you
13     capture 11 per cent of the general public.  Is this for
14     radio as well; that your audience is 11 per cent of the
15     listeners.  Is that what it is:
16  1066                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  If you are
17     addressing a question to the CBC, perhaps later when
18     they come to the table they could respond.
19  1067                 MR. OUELLETTE:  Statistics are nice,
20     but from my understanding you have to get statistics
21     that are based on a specific group.  I don't believe
22     this is just any group that listens to the CBC.  You do
23     have a wide range, but it has to be people who are
24     interested in the country, people who read and people
25     who do this.
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 1  1068                 What it does to me is that it is
 2     truly a learning station.  I feel that the country is
 3     small because of this station.  To privatize is always
 4     easy, but I think if it is to go that route, you would
 5     have to put a lot of contingencies, such as rules as to
 6     who is to advertise, how much advertising.  And again,
 7     your contents of topics would have to be a criteria as
 8     to privatizing and not just becoming another radio
 9     station.
10  1069                 That's all I have to say.
11                                                        1950
12  1070                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
13     Ouellette.  We appreciate your comments.
14  1071                 Mr. Halchuk, we have asked you to
15     make a clarification.  I think you wanted, in fact, to
16     clarify a point that you raised in your remarks.
17  1072                 MR. HALCHUK:  Thank you.  In my
18     presentation I made an assumption that obviously was
19     not conveyed properly.
20  1073                 First of all, why we are addressing
21     the English language media is the fact that in our
22     community we are a fourth generation community.  We are
23     talking about people whose primary language is English.
24  1074                 In Sudbury alone, when I take a look
25     at the associations, even there the languages have been
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 1     transferred from Ukrainian to English in the
 2     operations.  So when you are looking at 86 per cent of
 3     the population that primarily deals in English, a large
 4     portion of it dealing trilingually in Ukrainian,
 5     English and French as well, the fact that when we are
 6     asking for programming, we are looking for programming
 7     in English primarily, and also in French.
 8  1075                 That is why out of the nine
 9     recommendations there is only one that speaks to
10     actually having a language other than English in
11     French.  And that was the one re broadcasting in
12     international languages.
13  1076                 We are looking for interesting
14     programs.  The people growing up here are interested in
15     that aspect of it.  During our congress, for example,
16     we had a major topic on education:  how do we convey
17     the Ukrainian Canadian culture using the English
18     language.
19  1077                 We had a gentleman at one point in
20     one of our conferences who is from Irish background,
21     and this helped.  In effect, we are talking about the
22     English language conveying the message, the ethnic
23     programming in that fashion.
24  1078                 Thank you.
25  1079                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you for
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 1     clarifying that on the public record.
 2  1080                 Is there anyone else who wishes to
 3     make a comment?
 4  1081                 CBC, do you have any further remarks,
 5     because we have had some speakers since your last
 6     remarks?
 7  1082                 If you wish to take a little time,
 8     Mr. Taylor, that's fine
 9     --- Off microphone / Sans microphone
10  1083                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  No problem.
11  1084                 MR. LAHAY:  Just for housekeeping
12     order, I would like to remind everybody that if you did
13     take advantage of the translation services here this
14     afternoon or this evening, please remember to return
15     their device to the front of the room, at the side.
16  1085                 Thank you.
17     --- Pause / Pause
18  1086                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
19     everyone.  I believe Mr. Taylor is ready now.
20  1087                 Please proceed.
21     REPLY / RÉPLIQUE
22  1088                 MR. TAYLOR:  Just again to say thank
23     you, Madam Chair, to all of those who took the time to
24     make presentations and to affording us the opportunity
25     to hearing this first hand.
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 1  1089                 Thank you very much.
 2  1090                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 3     much.
 4  1091                 I think we have agreed that there is
 5     no one else in the room, unless I see a hand come up --
 6     or if there is anybody behind the post.  I cannot see
 7     through concrete -- although we have certainly been
 8     hearing.  I think the musicians have either moved
 9     upstairs or the hockey tournament is going on upstairs,
10     from the banging around.
11  1092                 I am then ready to draw to a close. 
12     We would like to thank all the participants of this
13     afternoon and this evening for coming here to share
14     with us your thoughts, your expectations, your comments
15     on the CBC and all of its services.
16  1093                 Au nom de mes collègues, j'aimerais
17     remercier tout le monde qui est venu ici cet après-midi
18     et ce soir.  Vos commentaires sont très importants dans
19     le processus public à l'égard de l'avenir de SRC/CBC.
20  1094                 I would like to thank staff, thanks
21     to the translation, not only the gentleman with the
22     devices but the gentleman doing the translation, and to
23     our court reporter.
24  1095                 Thank you again.
25  1096                 I believe, then, that closes this
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 1     public consultation.
 2  1097                 Thank you, Sudbury.
 3     --- Whereupon the consultation concluded at 1955 /
 4         Le consultation se termine à 1955
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