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Providing Content in Canada's Official Languages
Please note that the Official Languages Act requires that government publications be available in both official languages.
In order to meet some of the requirements under this Act, the Commission's transcripts will therefore be bilingual as to their covers, the listing of CRTC members and staff attending the hearings, and the table of contents.
However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded verbatim transcript and, as such, is transcribed in either of the official languages, depending on the language spoken by the participant at the hearing.
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
FOR THE CANADIAN RADIO-TELEVISION AND
TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION
TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DU
CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION
ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES
SUBJECT / SUJET:
PUBLIC CONSULTATION ON THE
CANADIAN BROADCASTING CORPORATION (CBC)/
CONSULTATIONS PUBLIQUES SUR LA
SOCIÉTÉ RADIO-CANADA (SRC)
HELD AT: TENUE À:
Four Points Hotel Hôtel Four Points
Room Georgian B & C Salle Georgian B & C
1696 Regent Street South 1696, rue Regent Sud
Sudbury, Ontario Sudbury, Ontario
March 16, 1999 Le 16 mars 1999
tel: 613-521-0703 StenoTran fax: 613-521-7668
Transcripts
In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages
Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be
bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members
and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of
Contents.
However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded
verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in
either of the official languages, depending on the language
spoken by the participant at the public hearing.
Transcription
Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues
officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront
bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des
membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience
publique ainsi que la table des matières.
Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu
textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée
et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues
officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le
participant à l'audience publique.
StenoTran
Canadian Radio-television and
Telecommunications Commission
Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des
télécommunications canadiennes
Transcript / Transcription
Public Hearing / Audience publique
PUBLIC CONSULTATION ON THE
CANADIAN BROADCASTING CORPORATION (CBC)/
CONSULTATIONS PUBLIQUES SUR LA
SOCIÉTÉ RADIO-CANADA (SRC)
BEFORE / DEVANT:
Joan Pennefather Chairperson / Présidente
Barbara Cram Commissioner / Commissioner
ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:
Donald Rhéaume Commission Counsel /
Avocat du Conseil
Rod Lahay Broadcasting Planning
Services / Service de la
planification de la
radiodiffusion
HELD AT: TENUE À:
Four Points Hotel Hôtel Four Points
Room Georgian A & B Salle Georgian A & B
1696 Regent Street South 1696, rue Regent Sud
Sudbury, Ontario Sudbury, Ontario
March 16, 1999 Le 16 mars 1999
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TABLE OF CONTENTS / TABLE DES MATIÈRES
PAGE
Presentation by / Présentation par:
Mr. J.A.L. Robertson 8
Mr. David Hogg 17
Mr. Paul Sauvé 25
Mrs. Betty Cajanek 34
Mr. Tom Gerry 40
Mr. Charlie Smith 45
Ms Daryl Shandro 50
Ms Marian Gilmour 59
Ms Liz Campbell 68
Mr. John Lindsay 70
Ms Eveline St-Denis 77
Mr. William Scoffield 82
Mrs. Janna Ramsay Best 96
Mr. Steve Dodson 108
Mr. Jean Charron / Mrs. Pamela Charron 118
Ms Patricia Hatala 124
Mr. Alex MacGregor 130
Mr. Mark Laing 136
Mr. Georges Linsey 150
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TABLE OF CONTENTS / TABLE DES MATIÈRES
PAGE
Presentation by / Présentation par:
Mr. Bill Oja 153
Mr. Richard Destefano 155
Mr. Karl Skierszkan 170
Mr. Ronald Brisebois 175
Mr. Walter Halchuk 178
Ms Jami van Haaften 189
Mr. Paul Reid 195
Mr. Alan Jennings 200
Mr. Leoonard Ouellette 207
Reply by: / Réplique par:
Ms Mariam Fry 142
Mr. Bruce Taylor 193
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1 Sudbury, Ontario / Sudbury (Ontario)
2 --- Upon commencing on Tuesday, March 16, 1999
3 at 1310 / L'audience reprend le mardi
4 16 mars 1999, à 1310
5 1 THE CHAIRPERSON: Ladies and
6 gentlemen, I think we will get under way.
7 2 Bonjour, mesdames et messieurs et
8 bienvenue à cette consultation publique.
9 3 Mon nom est Joan Pennefather.
10 Permettez-moi de vous présenter ma collègue,
11 Mme Barbara Cram. Nous sommes toutes deux conseillères
12 auprès du CRTC.
13 4 My name is Joan Pennefather. With me
14 today is my colleague Barbara Cram. We are both
15 Commissioners at the CRTC.
16 5 Nous sommes ici pour requérir vos
17 points de vue et vos commentaires sur la radio et la
18 télévision de Radio-Canada. Comment croyez-vous que la
19 SRC devrait remplir son rôle dans les années à venir?
20 Voilà le genre de question auquel nous voulons entendre
21 vos réponses.
22 6 The CBC is a national public service,
23 broadcasting in English as well as in French. It plays
24 an important role in the Canadian broadcasting system.
25 Today, many elements are constantly being added to the
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1 broadcasting system as new technologies multiply,
2 converge, open up new horizons, and increasingly offer
3 new services.
4 7 In this context we want to know what
5 are your needs and expectations as viewers and as
6 listeners of the CBC.
7 8 Il est donc très important pour le
8 Conseil d'entendre ce que vous avez à dire à ce sujet.
9 Il ne faut pas oublier que le CRTC est un organisme
10 public au service des citoyens et citoyennes. À ce
11 titre, il a une responsabilité envers eux.
12 9 C'est pourquoi mes collègues
13 conseillers et moi-même trouvons essentiel de venir
14 vous rencontrer. Nous sommes donc présents dans onze
15 villes canadiennes du 9 au 18 mars inclusivement pour
16 tenir cette série de consultations régionales d'un bout
17 à l'autre du pays.
18 10 Again, it is very important that the
19 Commission hears what you have to say. We must not
20 lose sight of the fact that the CRTC is a public
21 organization that serves Canadian citizens. In this
22 capacity, we are responsible to you. This is why my
23 fellow Commissioners and myself find it vital to come
24 and meet with you to discuss these issues and why we
25 are holding this series of regional consultations from
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1 one end of the country to the other, in 11 Canadian
2 cities, from March 9th to March 18th.
3 11 These consultations are designed to
4 give you a chance, on the eve of the new millennium, to
5 express your opinion on the CBC's role, the programming
6 it offers and the direction it should take at the
7 national, regional and local levels.
8 12 Through these consultations we hope
9 to enter into an open dialogue with you and hear your
10 concerns.
11 13 Ladies and gentlemen, your comments
12 will form part of the public record which will be added
13 to the record of the public hearing on the CBC that
14 will begin in Hull next May 25th. At this upcoming
15 hearing the Commission will examine the CBC's
16 application for the renewal of its licences, including
17 radio, television and its specialty services, Newsworld
18 and Réseau de l'information.
19 14 You can also take part in that public
20 hearing by sending your written comments to the CRTC.
21 If you wish to do so, please remember to refer to the
22 specific licence renewals being examined when you file
23 your comments.
24 15 Tous vos commentaires aujourd'hui
25 feront partie du dossier public. Il sera lui-même
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1 ajouté à celui de l'audience publique qui s'ouvrira à
2 Hull le 25 mai prochain.
3 16 C'est au cours de cette audience que
4 notre Conseil étudiera les demandes pour renouveler les
5 licences de radio et de télévision de la SRC ainsi que
6 ses services spécialisés, RDI et Newsworld.
7 17 Vous pouvez aussi participé à cette
8 audience en faisant parvenir une intervention écrite au
9 CRTC. Vos observations devront alors porter
10 spécifiquement sur le renouvellement des licences en
11 question.
12 18 Now I would like to come to today's
13 consultations and talk to you about how we are
14 organized throughout this afternoon and this evening.
15 19 First of all, it is my pleasure to
16 introduce the CRTC staff here today who will be
17 assisting us.
18 20 Donald Rhéaume is our legal counsel;
19 and Rod Lahay -- both gentlemen sitting here to my
20 right -- is from our Broadcasting Planning Service.
21 21 Please feel free to call on them with
22 any questions you might have about the process today,
23 or any other matter, including any questions on my
24 remarks.
25 22 So that you will all have an
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1 opportunity to speak, we would ask that you please
2 limit your presentation to ten minutes. I have a small
3 but effective watch, and we will try to keep within
4 that timeframe, but hopefully allowing you to express
5 fully your point of view at the same time.
6 23 As these consultations are a forum
7 designed especially for you and we want to listen to as
8 many participants as possible, we -- Madam Cram and
9 myself and the staff -- will not ask any questions
10 unless we need clarification.
11 24 We will go through our whole list
12 timed for this afternoon, hopefully to be finished by
13 5:00; but please be assured that if you are scheduled
14 for this afternoon, we will continue until you have
15 been heard.
16 25 At the end of this session,
17 representatives from the local CBC stations will have a
18 chance to offer their views, as they are naturally very
19 interested in the issues we are discussing here today.
20 26 Pour que vous ayez tous l'occasion de
21 vous faire entendre, nous vous demandons de limiter
22 votre présentation à 10 minutes. Ces consultations
23 sont votre tribune à vous et nous voulons être à
24 l'écoute du plus grand nombre possible d'intervenants.
25 Nous ne poserons donc pas de question, sauf si nous
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1 avons besoin de clarification.
2 27 Après vos interventions, les
3 représentants des stations locales de Radio-Canada
4 auront également droit de parole puisque ce sont les
5 premières intéressées par les questions que nous
6 abordons aujourd'hui.
7 28 Just before we begin, then, I am
8 going to turn the mic over to Mr. Lahay to describe to
9 you in a little more detail some housekeeping matters
10 and how the process will work this afternoon.
11 29 Rod.
12 30 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair.
13 31 I would like to go over a few
14 housekeeping items this afternoon which are designed
15 for everybody's attention, and which will make this
16 process run a little smoother.
17 32 We will be calling the presenters
18 today in groups of ten. We will do ten people at a
19 time. I will go over the names of the first ten, and
20 as you are called you will be presented in that order.
21 33 I would ask you to give your speech
22 in ten minutes, as suggested, please, and try to stick
23 with that timeframe. It will make it much easier for
24 everybody to finish on time.
25 34 We will be calling breaks this
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1 afternoon. Madam Chair will announce them at the
2 appropriate time.
3 35 We have translation service over
4 here. If you are in need of English or French, please
5 feel free to go to them; but be prepared to present
6 some identification in order to receive your device.
7 36 For the first ten we will start with
8 Mr. J.A.L. Robertson.
9 37 As I call your name, please feel free
10 to come forward and sit around the table.
11 38 Mrs. Catherine Meyer; Ms Rosemary
12 Connell; David Hogg; Paul Sauvé; Mrs. Betty Cajanek;
13 Tom Gerry; Mr. Charlie Smith; Daryl Shandra; and Marian
14 Gilmour.
15 39 Please come forward and we will start
16 with Mr. Robertson.
17 40 When you start your presentation,
18 will you please give your name for the transcripts and
19 the court reporter, so we will know who is actually
20 making the comments.
21 41 Thank you.
22 1312
23 42 THE CHAIRPERSON: Whenever you are
24 ready, Mr. Robertson.
25 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
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1 43 MR. ROBERTSON: Madam, my purpose is
2 to provide the CRTC with evidence of persistent bias
3 against nuclear energy by the CBC, to analyze the forms
4 taken by this bias, to suggest possible root causes,
5 and to recommend remedial measures. That is why the
6 submission is entitled "To Air is To Err".
7 44 The relevance to the CRTC of this
8 submission on a single issue is that there is evidence
9 that the bias may be much more widespread, extending to
10 industry and elsewhere.
11 45 I recognize that there is much that
12 is still good in CBC programming and do not wish to
13 destroy a once respected Canadian heritage. I come
14 neither to praise or to bury CBCers. I hope that this
15 submission may help the CBC restore its credibility and
16 re-earn the trust of a large segment of the Canadian
17 public. the CBC's mandate is to unite Canadians;
18 satanizing the nuclear industry and other sectors of
19 society is divisive.
20 46 The 32-page printed version documents
21 evidence of systemic anti-nuclear bias exhibited by the
22 CBC. Three major observations jump out from the
23 evidence:
24 47 1. The staggering number of
25 instances of insidious and invidious bias.
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1 48 2. The fact that these have
2 persisted for a quarter of a century.
3 49 3. The failure by members of the
4 public to obtain redress through all available
5 channels.
6 50 I analyzed the evidence into six
7 categories:
8 51 1. Simple falsehoods, which are
9 relatively infrequent.
10 52 About equally responsible for the
11 bulk of the evidence are the next three:
12 53 2. Misleading statements,
13 distortions, unfounded allegations and opinions stated
14 as fact.
15 54 3. Selectivity, particularly in the
16 choice of those interviewed and in the time accorded
17 them.
18 55 4. Prejudicial behaviour of program
19 hosts.
20 56 The two other, though less frequent,
21 are more serious:
22 57 5. The long-standing practice of the
23 CBC to allow staff with allegiance to anti-nuclear
24 organizations to participate in the production and
25 presentation of programs on this issue.
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1 58 6. The exploitation of psychological
2 means that create anti-nuclear impressions in the
3 audience, such as docudramas, eerie music, clips of a
4 mushroom cloud to illustrate programs on peaceful
5 nuclear energy and other forms of scare-mongering.
6 59 The analysis includes instances of
7 the CRTC failing to correct such abuses when they were
8 brought to its attention.
9 60 In seeking root causes of this bias
10 against nuclear energy, I suggest that much of it can
11 be assigned to ignorance rather than malice. The media
12 in general, and the CBC in particular, are mainly drawn
13 from the liberal arts community, one often antipathetic
14 if not antagonistic to industry and technology. As
15 such, they are susceptible to claims by well-organized
16 anti-nuclear groups, and unqualified, through lack of
17 mathematical and scientific training, to challenge
18 them.
19 61 Many of those now controlling the
20 media were brought up in the 1960s, uncritically
21 importing the U.S.'s anti-military, anti-police, anti-
22 establishment attitudes that were sometimes appropriate
23 there, but not in Canada. A generally low standard of
24 media ethics, characterized by "the end justifies the
25 means", contributes: if the producers and hosts
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1 believe that nuclear energy is evil, then they can
2 convince themselves that they should expose this to
3 their audiences. "Watergate-envy" leads them to
4 present anything they learn as an expose, and to find
5 conspiracies where none exists.
6 62 Much less defensible is the
7 concealment of a conflict of interest on the part of
8 producers and hosts. I doubt that people watching a
9 "The Nature of Things" program on nuclear energy
10 realize that the CRTC has stated that "the Television
11 Broadcasting Regulations, which prohibit the broadcast
12 of false or misleading news, does not apply to a
13 program like (this)", or that the host, David Suzuki,
14 was on the board of directors of the leading anti-
15 nuclear organization. Max Allen, producer of another
16 anti-nuclear program, was also a member of that
17 organization.
18 63 If the CBC is aware of this bias, it
19 is in violation of its own "Journalistic Policy"; if
20 not, it is not competent to provide programming on this
21 issue, despite its avowed intention to provide
22 "enlightenment".
23 64 Either way, it is presumably in
24 violation of the Broadcasting Act that requires that
25 "programming...be of a high standard". It is
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1 journalism like this that gives libel chill a good
2 name.
3 65 I allege bias on the part of the CBC
4 in its treatment of nuclear energy. The CBC has denied
5 this and has assured the CRTC in writing that it
6 monitors for bias. (See Appendix 2 of the written
7 version for relevant correspondence.)
8 66 There is a simple means of resolving
9 this conflict. The CRTC should require the CBC to
10 table at these hearings the results of its monitoring,
11 so that the CRTC and the public may adjudicate between
12 the CBC's claims and mine.
13 67 Most of my other recommendations are
14 couched in terms applicable to all controversial
15 issues, not just nuclear energy.
16 68 The CRTC should require the CBC to:
17 69 (1) recognize and acknowledge bias by
18 the CRTC in its treatment of nuclear energy;
19 70 (2) enforce existing policies;
20 71 (3) eliminate from these policies
21 exemptions for contract staff and for "documentaries";
22 72 (4) exclude from the production and
23 presentation of a program on an issue of public concern
24 anyone who has taken a public stance on that issue,
25 either as a proponent or an opponent;
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1 73 (5) monitor for balance on issues of
2 public concern;
3 74 (6) introduce some platform for
4 corrections;
5 75 (7) provide a publicly accessible log
6 of complaints including their disposition, ideally
7 available through the Internet;
8 76 (8) maintain a publicly accessible
9 list, ideally available through the Internet, of
10 individuals called on for interviews on issues of
11 public concern, identifying each as for or against, or
12 neutral; and
13 77 (9) issue an annual report
14 summarizing these complaints by issue, giving
15 statistics.
16 78 To ensure that the CBC corrects its
17 errors, the CRTC should:
18 79 (1) improve its monitoring of CBC
19 compliance with requirements;
20 80 (2) be more diligent in investigating
21 complaints;
22 81 (3) invoke sanctions for repeated
23 infractions;
24 82 (4) review the CBC's "Journalistic
25 Policy", and possibly other documents, in the CBC's
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1 licence.
2 83 Some examples of the evidence that I
3 have supplied are:
4 84 1. A producer told a host to
5 "emphasize things scary".
6 85 2. Three high profile hosts admitted
7 to ignoring the CBC's "Journalistic Policy".
8 86 3. A nuclear spokesman was de-
9 invited because the nuclear critic had left town but
10 the anti-nuclear interview was put out anyway.
11 87 4. A professor was de-invited when
12 he failed to provide the alarmist quotes wanted.
13 88 5. The CBC repeatedly refers to
14 thousands of deaths from the Chernobyl accident and
15 ignores the figure of less than 50 agreed by a
16 conference of 845 scientists sponsored by the UN.
17 89 6. One program even claimed a death
18 toll of 50,000 from the Three Mile Island accident,
19 compared with the generally accepted figure of one
20 person who may eventually die.
21 90 7. A docudrama pretended that a
22 Chernobyl-like accident had occurred near Toronto.
23 91 8. Such scary misinformation is
24 partly due to selective interviews with anti-nuclear
25 activists, introduced as experts but regarded as
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1 mavericks by their peers; and without any opportunity
2 for rebuttal.
3 92 9. One high profile host, David
4 Suzuki, repeatedly attacks nuclear energy and promotes
5 conservation, concealing the fact that airtight
6 dwellings could expose occupants to more radiation from
7 radon gas in a year than they would get from nuclear
8 energy in a lifetime.
9 93 To finish, I will summarize in a
10 parody of a CBC broadcast:
11 "Today at Sudbury a public
12 hearing into the CBC's
13 performance learned of systemic
14 bias in its treatment of issues
15 of public concern. A 32-page
16 exposé by an honoured
17 scientist..."
18 94 That's me.
19 "...documented abundant evidence
20 of bias extending over 25 years.
21 Among his examples of scare-
22 mongering, the CBC has
23 repeatedly exaggerated the death
24 toll of accidents by a factor of
25 at least 20, and once 50,000.
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1 He argued that the CBC appears
2 to be in violation of the
3 Broadcasting Act and challenged
4 it to make public the results of
5 monitoring for bias...It was
6 revealed that card-carrying
7 members of a pressure group
8 active in these issues have
9 operated within the CBC for at
10 least 20 years, employed on the
11 production and presentation of
12 programs on these issues. We
13 have obtained copies of letters
14 showing that the CRTC was made
15 aware of the bias, and the
16 existence of "moles" within the
17 CBC, as long ago as 1988, but it
18 chose to take no action."
19 95 Thank you.
20 96 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr.
21 Robertson.
22 97 Mr. Lahay.
23 1325
24 98 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair.
25 99 One further note. If you don't mind
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1 leaving a copy of your presentations, feel free to
2 leave them with the Commission. Thank you.
3 100 Next is Mrs. Catherine Meyer.
4 101 She is not here.
5 102 Mrs. Rosemay Connell.
6 103 David Hogg.
7 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
8 104 MR. HOGG: My name is David Hogg. I
9 have come here from Toronto, because I believe my
10 comments are correspondingly important for all
11 Canadians.
12 105 I am a professional engineer and
13 accountant. I am not a brain surgeon or rocket
14 scientist, nor have I ever claimed to be of that
15 calibre. But then I do not believe that that level of
16 intelligence is necessary to understand the issues of
17 fairness and justice which I am going to raise.
18 106 I am limiting my comments to CBC TV.
19 107 I should say at the outset that I did
20 try to have a face-to-face meeting over these matters,
21 and that never came to happen.
22 108 I have heard many Catholics express a
23 concern that CBC is anti-Catholic. By this, they mean
24 that CBC TV appears to take deliberate steps to portray
25 the Catholic faith in an unfavourable light.
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1 109 My wife and I have a personal
2 experience which we did not get to bring before the
3 CRTC for reasons I still do not understand.
4 110 Recently, if there was an issue which
5 could be portrayed as contentious, one can only
6 conclude CBC TV's deliberate policy has been to use
7 well-known dissidents. One dissident in particular
8 simply does not understand the Catholic faith.
9 111 Why would CBC TV go to this person
10 repeatedly? Are they more interested, as David
11 Halverston(ph) wrote, in heat and light? Is this their
12 mission? I do not think so.
13 112 If they are funded with public money,
14 they above all others have an obligation to present,
15 with fairness and integrity, the reality and plurality
16 which is Canada. CBC TV has absolutely no mandate to
17 present their own agenda which infringes the rights of
18 others.
19 113 After the experience that I want to
20 share with you, I now believe CBC TV's agenda is not
21 uniquely directed at Catholics but is generally anti
22 all religions.
23 114 On June 12, 1998 CBC TV aired on the
24 "National Magazine" a program "Faith and Media".
25 Ostensibly, it was to deal with complaints that
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1 religions were not being fairly dealt with by the
2 media. I was so disappointed with the approach of the
3 moderator that I ordered a transcript. The following
4 quotations, therefore, are precisely accurate.
5 115 Hanna Gardner's(ph) brief opening
6 stage-setting remark contained:
7 "Whether it is violence in the
8 Middle East or Northern Ireland
9 or the escalating conflict
10 between India and Pakistan, the
11 common threat that ties so much
12 of the trouble in our world
13 today is religion." (As read)
14 116 I took issue with Ms Gardner's use of
15 "so much". When "so much" is used and when it is
16 challenged, a fair and reasonable expectation would be
17 that the contention would be defended.
18 117 For example, she spends "so much"
19 time studying, or he spends "so much" time on his cars.
20 The defences might be that she studies ten hours a day,
21 six days a week; and he spends the whole of the
22 weekend, stopping only to eat and sleep, cleaning and
23 polishing his cars.
24 118 I e-mailed CBC to ask Ms Gardner to
25 defend her contention with verifiable data as evidence.
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1 I believe firmly in the principle of subsidiarity,
2 starting with the person who made or wrote the remark.
3 I got nowhere. So I contacted CBC's ombudsman for
4 help, pointing out that anti-religious Stalin and
5 Hitler, between them, caused more trouble than all
6 religions from the beginning of time.
7 119 As well, it was pointed out there is
8 Bosnia, Rwanda -- God help us -- Kosovo, et cetera.
9 120 Further into the show Ms Gardner
10 delivered:
11 "Maybe it would help if we had a
12 very practical example. Okay.
13 We are covering a story on
14 abortion clinics and bombings.
15 Doctors who perform abortions
16 are being shot at, some killed.
17 How do you do that story with
18 sensitivity to everyone?" (As
19 read)
20 121 Since the show was broadcast by
21 Canadian television for a Canadian audience, I submit
22 the content should be judged in a Canadian context. I
23 contend that in introducing in this manner, in a panel
24 discussion in which mainstream Canadian religions were
25 representative, the strong inference was that these
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1 religions were somehow implicated, even though that was
2 not stated specifically.
3 122 I had been researching the causes of
4 the only abortion clinic bombing. It was really a case
5 of arson. The lead detective on that case, Detective
6 John Boyce, with whom I have spoken, was not prepared
7 to attribute blame to those in the Pro-Life Movement or
8 abortion supporters. I have been unable to find any
9 responsible authority who would attribute these acts to
10 mainstream religions, Canadian or other.
11 123 What was the purpose of raising this
12 issue in this forum?
13 124 I asked for evidence to support the
14 proprietary of this comment in this forum. None was
15 provided.
16 125 A short time after, CBC aired a
17 program on a women's book store located on the same
18 premises as the abortion clinic. A statement was made
19 "there was arson in the book store aimed at the
20 abortion clinic upstairs". Again, when asked for
21 evidence, I never got an acknowledgement to my request.
22 That is brutal.
23 126 My initial expression of concern was
24 July 15, 1998. My inquiry has turned into a tortuous
25 mess, eventually landing on the desk of Perrin Beatty,
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1 President and CEO of CBC.
2 127 The last action to date was a letter
3 from my M.P. to Perrin Beatty, dated February 2, 1999,
4 to which I have not received a reply. This does not
5 surprise me.
6 128 To M.P. Jim Karygiannis' February 2nd
7 letter was attached my analysis of the contents of an
8 earlier response by Mr. Beatty. From my own
9 professional experience, it is difficult to imagine how
10 Mr. Beatty's letter could be more factually in error
11 than it was.
12 129 Copies of the correspondence is
13 submitted for your perusal.
14 130 The end result that nobody at CBC has
15 produced one shred of verifiable data to support the
16 contention or inference made in the program to which I
17 objected -- this in spite of providing the name and
18 telephone number of the detective to the ombudsman;
19 also in spite of a comprehensive list of this century's
20 troubles listed on two full pages of The Toronto Star
21 under the heading "The World at War", pages A12 and
22 A13, Wednesday, November 11, 1998.
23 131 These are the two pages. You can see
24 that it is pretty comprehensive.
25 132 So if there was evidence, there will
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1 be ample evidence there.
2 133 Essentially, that is denial anything
3 misleading occurred. How can anyone deal with that?
4 134 Three months after my initial
5 inquiry, CBC staff replied, completely ignoring
6 Ms Gardner's "so much of the trouble in our world
7 today". Then the ombudsman intervened, without being
8 asked, and did not convince me that he had more
9 objectivity or knowledge of the issue. My initial e-
10 mail was "lost in the inundation of mail we received
11 last season".
12 135 I was told staff were on holiday,
13 that there was a staff shortage. The whole thing is a
14 long, sorry and sordid tale which is well-documented.
15 136 Madame François Bertrand is quoted in
16 The Globe and Mail of Saturday, December 19, 1998:
17 "People will tell us why CBC is
18 so important in their own neck
19 of the woods." (As read)
20 137 My response is: CBC TV is not
21 important. In fact, I am hearing again and again:
22 "Who watches TV?"
23 138 One in particular was quite a well-
24 known and prominent figure.
25 139 CBC TV's problems seem to be so
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1 ingrained from top to bottom, no wonder The Globe
2 commented "this deepened moral problems". No wonder
3 there are strikes.
4 140 After what I have gone through and
5 before I could support the continuance of CBC TV, I
6 would need to be rigorously convinced that the person
7 appointed to replace Mr. Beatty was honest and
8 determined to bring integrity to a corporation in dire
9 need of credible leadership, quite likely at many
10 levels.
11 141 THE CHAIRPERSON: Does that complete
12 your comments?
13 142 MR. HOGG: Thank you very much indeed
14 for giving us this opportunity of bringing these
15 concerns before you. I am quite surprised that my
16 concerns parallel very clearly the concerns that were
17 enunciated earlier.
18 143 I would be happy to leave a copy of
19 my presentation.
20 144 THE CHAIRPERSON: We would appreciate
21 that, Mr. Hogg. Thank you very much for coming from
22 Toronto.
23 145 Very quickly for those who arrived
24 after our start, our lack of questions does not denote
25 on our part a lack of interest. As I said previously,
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1 it is important that we hear everyone here today;
2 therefore, we are not asking questions.
3 146 Please don't think of that as lack of
4 interest.
5 147 Mr. Lahay.
6 1335
7 148 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair.
8 149 Also a comment for those of you who
9 are here today but have not registered and do not wish
10 to give a presentation that there are forms outside of
11 the room for your comments. You can fill those out,
12 and certainly the Commission would be pleased to
13 receive them.
14 150 Mr. Paul Sauvé. Monsieur Sauvé, s'il
15 vous plaît.
16 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
17 151 M. SAUVÉ: Oui, bonjour. Bonjour,
18 Madame la Présidente. Paul Sauvé. Merci de m'écouter
19 pour quelques minutes. Moi, ce n'est pas une
20 présentation très philosophique mais plutôt
21 personnelle.
22 152 Je m'appelle Paul Sauvé. Je suis
23 marié avec Claire, ma femme de trente-neuf ans. Nous
24 avons 16 enfants, 10 petits-enfants. Ma racine
25 canadienne du côté de ma mère recule jusqu'à 1663 et du
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1 côté du mon père, à 1671. Alors, il est impossible
2 pour moi de décrire comment je me sens comme Canadien
3 mais je n'ai pas ailleurs à aller. Alors, après 300
4 ans, il faut que je reste ici.
5 153 Je suis peut-être un peu présomptueux
6 de croire que je pourrais avoir un effet sur votre
7 décision mais je crois que j'ai une dette à mes
8 ancêtres et à mes enfants d'au moins donner mon
9 opinion.
10 154 Chaque génération doit laisser à la
11 prochaine génération un monde un peu meilleur que comme
12 nous l'avons reçu. Il me semble que de plus en plus,
13 Radio-Canada s'éloigne de nous dans le nord et semble
14 vouloir centraliser plutôt qu'améliorer les services
15 régionaux où on trouve les vrais besoins de Canadiens
16 comme moi.
17 155 Maintenant, je m'excuse, mais je vais
18 changer en anglais parce que je veux faire référence à
19 un texte qui a été préparé par Guylaine Saucier et j'ai
20 beaucoup de difficulté à traduire. Alors, quand je
21 pense en anglais, il faut que je parle en anglais;
22 quand je pense en français, il faut que je parle en
23 français. Alors, je m'excuse.
24 156 In a recent edition of the Edmonton
25 Journal, I cut out an article that appeared in the
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1 editorial pages. It was written, at least attributed,
2 to Guylaine Saucier, the Chairperson of the Board of
3 Canadian Broadcasting Corporation.
4 157 I agree totally with what she is
5 saying, yet it frustrates me to no end. If what
6 appears in this article is what she and the board
7 believe, why did they not implement what they believe
8 before now?
9 "The CBC/Radio-Canada should be,
10 for a publicly funded
11 institution, in the business of
12 reinforcing and transmitting
13 Canadian culture" (As read)
14 158 Writes Ms Saucier.
15 "There is a danger that the
16 shareholders of CBC, citizens
17 from every region and walk of
18 life, may increasingly disengage
19 themselves from the discussion.
20 They may come to view the
21 fundamental issues, such as
22 whether the CBC's mandate
23 continues to be relevant and
24 worthy of their support as
25 taxpayers." (As read)
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1 159 I must tell you that the biggest
2 ovation that I heard at the Scott Tournament of Hearts,
3 the Canadian Curling Championships for Women in
4 Charlottetown last week, was when it was announced that
5 the CBC was not going to televise the finals and the
6 semi-finals.
7 160 That hurts. Why should all the
8 taxpayers be so happy that their network is not going
9 to televise and that it is going to be left to a
10 private network? It really is something that I didn't
11 like very much.
12 161 I am here to "kick tires", as was
13 invited by Mme Saucier. We differ in definition, not
14 on strategic plan. How do you kick tires of someone so
15 big and so expensive? I am sure others will suggest
16 areas of improvement. I have decided to emphasize
17 northern Ontario, regional programming and sports.
18 162 The reason I am saying sports is
19 because I was prompted to come here by a comment made
20 by one of the members of the CRTC who said -- and I
21 don't have the name -- there's too much sports on CBC.
22 163 I hope Ms Saucier forgives me for
23 changing the order of her five commitments, because
24 being relevant and accountable take care of themselves
25 if you meet your objectives.
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1 164 Please forgive me for favouring, as I
2 see it a little differently than what seems to be the
3 definition of culture as the CBC/Radio-Canada sees it
4 now.
5 165 To me, culture is what is
6 historically Canadian; how we are identified by the
7 rest of the world. Trying to be anything else is to be
8 ashamed of what we are.
9 166 Relevant: What is relevant? Does it
10 mean that radio should have a meaning to the people it
11 serves? I understand there is a CBC Two. What is
12 that? What does it air?
13 167 I think there is even a French Radio-
14 Canada Two, or another network.
15 168 The moose and I up north never hear
16 it. We have never heard it, and I don't think we will
17 ever hear it, unless there are changes.
18 169 That must be a service for the
19 culturally deprived southern Ontario and Montreal area.
20 After all, they don't have any culture down there.
21 They could have Radio Two send us all the museums and
22 everything else there is there.
23 170 Is not being relevant providing
24 regional service? To Radio-Canada, Montreal area,
25 culture is what the north needs. I don't think so.
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1 Why not be relevant and give us the regional services
2 that are needed up north?
3 171 Why is every thought centred around
4 Toronto and Montreal? Be relevant and expand
5 drastically regional services.
6 172 To nurture Canadian culture: What is
7 more Canadian, Bach and Beethoven or Natalie McMaster
8 and Chuck Labelle? The CBC/Radio-Canada has probably
9 the most extensive symphony library in Canada, and
10 there is nothing wrong with that. Is that more
11 Canadian than hockey?
12 173 Who is doing Canadian French country
13 music in northern Ontario? No one.
14 174 Why take away old time fiddling music
15 of Canadian artists? If some CBC programming is
16 important to some, why is it not then as important for
17 other music that is also Canadian?
18 175 I spent many hours travelling in
19 northern Ontario listening to René Le Cavalier and
20 hockey, because my work for 28 years was travelling all
21 of northern Ontario and listening to René Le Cavalier
22 in hockey. Now hockey is only important around
23 Montreal. We don't have any hockey on radio up in
24 northern Ontario.
25 176 We realize that someone else bought
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1 the rights to the Montreal Canadian games, but can't
2 the CBC/Radio-Canada cooperate and provide a service
3 for the rest of Canada by maybe buying the rights for
4 the rest of Canada?
5 177 One aspect of Canadian life that tied
6 this country together when I was growing up was Foster
7 Hewitt's "Hello Canada and hockey fans" in Newfoundland
8 and in the United States.
9 178 Une autre chanson, "Mon pays c'est
10 l'hiver" par Gilles Vigneault and hockey are being a
11 big part of Canada. Now the Toronto Star in
12 yesterday's issue carried an article entitled "Curling
13 and TV". How very Canadian. Nowhere else in the world
14 would curling happen on television.
15 179 If you would have witnessed the briar
16 that just completed, there were more people looking at
17 the final games there than there was looking at the
18 Stanley Cup Finals.
19 180 I was very frustrated when I heard a
20 CRTC member ask: "Do we have too much sports on
21 CBC/Radio-Canada?"
22 181 What sports on radio? I wish there
23 was some to cut. There is no sports on radio.
24 182 Who televised the Canada Winter Games
25 this year from Newfoundland? May I emphasize that it
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1 was the "Canada Winter Games", where only Canadians who
2 could afford to pay a premium, where the service is
3 available, could watch their children and classmates
4 participate. Is this reaching out to the young?
5 183 The CBC/Radio-Canada wants to reach
6 out to the young. Is there a better way to reach out
7 to the young than with other young people?
8 184 Is the CBC/Radio-Canada willing to
9 let NBC do the profiles of Canadian athletes at the
10 next Olympics? No one can follow our athletes better
11 than the CBC/Radio-Canada without worry about making
12 money at doing it.
13 185 Basketball, which was invented by a
14 Canadian, is now an American sport. Where have the
15 North Zip(ph) gone? Where are the Jets? How long have
16 the Oilers, the Canucks, the Senators, the Flames --
17 yes, and even the Montreal Canadiens -- how much life
18 is left in them?
19 186 What about the Expos, Canadian
20 football? All have a better chance of survival with
21 exposure.
22 187 CBC/Radio-Canada television and radio
23 have a role to play in this. Indirectly, they could
24 help save these franchises by buying the rights and
25 broadcasting the games all across the country, and
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1 maybe having them become popular.
2 188 Reaching out to young audiences:
3 This really worries me. Are we talking for all of
4 Canada or again for the culturally-deprived large
5 cities of the country?
6 189 To be very cynical, I believe that
7 this issue is more apple pie than reality here in
8 northern Ontario.
9 190 Connect to Canadians: Does connect
10 mean give them what is good for them, not what is
11 needed or what they want? Canada is a vast country,
12 and in order to connect it must be done regionally.
13 Only regionally can CBC/Radio-Canada reflect and
14 provide the services relevant to Canadians like myself.
15 191 To summarize, in order to connect to
16 this Canadian CBC/Radio-Canada must become regionally
17 relevant; re-instate radio broadcasts of hockey games
18 for us and the moose up here; expand greatly the
19 playing of Canadian old time music, both French and
20 English, in northern Ontario and the rest of Canada.
21 192 I think you will hear that more often
22 in some other areas also.
23 193 Continue the good coverage of the
24 Olympics, which is the best, no matter how you do. You
25 can play the channels, but the Olympics is covered the
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1 best by the CBC.
2 194 Become a big player in professional
3 sports of this country. Look at how the United States
4 promote and even create icons around their professional
5 sports teams.
6 195 Merci beaucoup de m'avoir écouté et
7 j'espère que vos décisions seront fructueuses pour tous
8 les Canadiens.
9 196 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci beaucoup,
10 Monsieur Sauvé. Thank you, Mr. Sauvé, for your
11 remarks.
12 197 We will go on to our next presenter.
13 1345
14 198 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair.
15 199 Mrs. Betty Cajanek, please.
16 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
17 200 MRS. CAJANEK: Thank you. At this
18 time CBC appears to be affected by a lack of vision.
19 It is not only the technicians' strike that has
20 disrupted programming; our national broadcaster seems
21 to be set adrift. Often there is an excellent program
22 followed by a sleeper.
23 201 CBC needs to reshape itself and
24 decide its mandate. Will it be a public national
25 broadcaster, or will it try to compete with television
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1 sitcoms? CBC is not marketing itself when it is
2 involved in consistent squabbling over its purpose. In
3 an increasingly competitive consumer environment, CBC
4 needs to build a strong long-term marketing image in
5 order to compete.
6 202 Perhaps marketing research and
7 business planning could be carried out at reasonable
8 cost through one of the university by upper year
9 commerce students, to determine the mission of the CBC
10 and how its resources could best be used.
11 203 I believe a poll must be done to
12 establish who listens or watches CBC. The age of the
13 listener may be critical. For example, the variety of
14 music on radio is deplorable to a middle-aged person
15 like myself. Outside of "Finkelson's(ph) Forty-Fives"
16 and a smattering of popular classical and semi-
17 classical music. In tough times, people need happy
18 music.
19 204 Furthermore, people want and respect
20 the quality programming CBC has customarily produced.
21 To remain competitive, a poll should be taken every 15
22 years to re-assess what programming the public desires.
23 205 On the eve of the new millennium, the
24 CBC, along with the world, is at a crossroads of
25 change. This new technology, a new generation of
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1 listeners, and less money. Politicians are encouraging
2 the CBC to privatize, yet the CBC would lose its
3 independence, its innovation and its will to produce
4 quality programming if it privatized.
5 206 Like all businesses today, the CBC
6 must learn to manage its affairs more economically.
7 They must cut top-heavy management. Surely there are
8 other ways to support public broadcasting besides
9 privatization or advertising. Could we possibly look
10 to other countries to learn from their example?
11 Possibly funds could be acquired by applying a
12 licensing fee to all televisions and radios that are
13 sold.
14 207 In reporting the news, CBC provides
15 accurate, up-to-date information on a regional and a
16 national level. This is important to Canadians who
17 often hear news about their employer from the radio
18 before an announcement is made on the job.
19 208 CBC needs to relink with the little
20 guy in Canada and discuss issues affecting the ordinary
21 Canadian. This can only be done by delving into the
22 diverse regions of the country and touching on the
23 daily experiences and problems of people.
24 209 For example, until recently, I
25 believed Toronto was the only place in Toronto to find
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1 a job. However, word of mouth advises Kitchener and
2 Cambridge are also booming. We should know why they
3 are booming and what kind of jobs are available in
4 order to better advise our children.
5 210 In addition, rural areas and
6 settlements in the north rely on CBC to bring culture
7 and Canadian identity to their homes. However, CBC
8 will be facing even greater competition as satellite
9 dishes come down in price, enabling most people to tune
10 in to specialty channels, such as TSN and A&E.
11 211 To compete, CBC must be distinct. It
12 must set priorities. It cannot try to serve everyone.
13 We should be pursuing our nationalism through the
14 regions by hearing views from across the country.
15 212 Personally, I listen to CBC all day,
16 every day, to keep current on national and regional
17 events and to listen to various issues. My hands may
18 be busy, but my mind is stimulated by the issues
19 presented. However, I do think parts of radio can be
20 done better, and cheaper.
21 213 "Dead Dog Cafe" should be replaced by
22 stories from native history, positive information that
23 is taking place in the native community. In fact, it
24 is high time a truer Canadian history was told, such as
25 the French and native version. I realize this is a
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1 huge undertaking, but perhaps it could be done in
2 conjunction with one of the universities, while we are
3 still young enough to remember our history.
4 214 This history could possibly be sold
5 to the educational system, or could replace
6 "Richardson's Round-up", which is supposed to be a
7 program on the arts and culture.
8 215 Should the Canadian history
9 undertaking not be feasible, I would replace
10 "Richardson" with Lister Sinclair's "Excellent Ideas"
11 or some of the overnight programming, of which I seldom
12 get to hear because by 8 o'clock most of us have
13 switched on the television.
14 216 Television specialty channels are
15 also popular in our home. To watch tennis, golf or
16 curling, TSN is a necessity -- taped or live --
17 followed closely by A&E and CBC Newsworld. I think you
18 would made better use of "Undercurrents" and Pamela
19 Wallin at an earlier time, 7:00 or 8:00 p.m., before we
20 are too tired to watch these shows.
21 217 Yes, CBC Canadians are listening.
22 But please remember, most of us have been battling job
23 cuts and wage freezes since the early 1970s. We are
24 faced with the same technological changes and federal
25 and provincial downloading that you are facing. We are
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1 tired and a little slow to react, but we are listening.
2 218 A mature country needs a national
3 radio system that is pure, without advertising. To
4 unite Canada, citizens must be aware of views and
5 values from across the country. This is how we learn
6 about each other and how we keep our country strong.
7 219 Living next to the big elephant, the
8 United States, it is imperative that we maintain
9 control of our culture through the CBC. Otherwise, we
10 will become that insignificant other; or worse, part of
11 the U.S.A.
12 220 Thank you.
13 221 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much
14 for your remarks.
15 222 I just have one point of
16 clarification.
17 223 Your first comment was about a
18 marketing image on the long term. Was that for radio
19 and television?
20 224 MRS. CAJANEK: Yes.
21 225 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very
22 much.
23 1353
24 226 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair.
25 227 Tom Gerry, please.
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1 PRESENTATION - PRÉSENTATION
2 228 MR. GERRY: Thank you. I am here to
3 speak as a member of the public. I am a parent, and I
4 am a university professor. What I have to say will
5 most directly be about the radio programming, from
6 those points of view.
7 229 I listen to the CBC as often as I
8 can. I watch a little bit of the CBC TV occasionally.
9 I have noticed -- and one of the main reasons that I
10 came today -- that the CBC is really struggling with
11 what they are trying to do. I feel fairly outraged by
12 that, because I value it so highly.
13 230 I am going to talk a bit about
14 regional programming. I think all three, regional,
15 national and local programming are extremely important,
16 and I would like to suggest one of the images that
17 maybe we should start using when we think of the CBC.
18 We generally think of it as the voice or the image of
19 Canada, but I would like to also introduce the idea
20 that the CBC is also the ears of Canada and the eyes of
21 Canada.
22 231 I depend on the CBC for learning
23 mainly about issues and events in other parts of the
24 world, in other parts of the country, and in my region
25 and city.
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1 232 I would like to make a couple of
2 suggestions, not necessarily specifically changes but
3 perhaps additions and so on.
4 233 Regarding local programming, it has
5 been cut back here. We have lived through what it
6 would be like, to a certain extent, not to have the CBC
7 because it has really been noticeably attenuated. That
8 brings home to us just how important the kind of local
9 coverage that the CBC used to be able to do is.
10 234 We still have our morning and
11 afternoon programs, which are from Sudbury, and the
12 people there do a valiant job. But the region that
13 they are covering is incredibly large and they need
14 help to carry on.
15 235 One of the things that I mostly
16 notice, being at the university, is the lack of sports
17 coverage of amateur sports. This is again the radio
18 largely but it is also true of TV. The university and
19 the local amateur sports are basically ignored, and I
20 find that peculiar.
21 236 The other thing I have noticed is
22 that there are a lot of resources within the CBC that I
23 think are not utilized. With the labour dispute going
24 on right now, some of those things have become clear in
25 the scramble for programming, and things are being
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1 rebroadcast. Also, people in the CBC are making use of
2 programs made in the other part of the country, and
3 also we don't hear those. They are fascinating.
4 237 What I am saying is that sometimes
5 local programming is regarded as somewhat trivial. I
6 have heard that complaint. I don't think there is any
7 necessity for the CBC to be accused of that, partly
8 because they have resources to bring stories from other
9 parts of the country to people in different regions.
10 And they could do more of that.
11 238 The other thing is this overnight
12 programming on CBC radio where basically news and
13 cultural affairs from other broadcasting systems are
14 rebroadcast, I had a thought regarding the television
15 network.
16 239 Again, I am not a cable subscriber,
17 so I am only talking of what I can receive with an
18 aerial. That kind of format is really important and
19 useful. If that were extended to television, I think
20 there could be very useful programming created that
21 way, and again without a lot of new resources being
22 needed.
23 240 That is to elaborate on my thought
24 that CBC is Canadians' ears and eyes, as well as our
25 image.
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1 241 As a university professor, I rely on
2 the CBC, several programs in particular, because I am
3 involved in Canadian studies, Canadian literature. The
4 programs are invaluable, not just on the basis of
5 content but because many of the programs involve fine
6 writing. To listen to the way those programs are
7 written and presented is an excellent teaching tool, is
8 an excellent lesson for students in terms of
9 composition of their own projects.
10 242 Again with young people -- I would
11 like to switch a bit to my own daughter, who is 12, and
12 her friends. She is a pretty normal young adolescent.
13 She listens to the CBC, probably because I listen to
14 the CBC and my wife listens to the CBC. Anyway, she is
15 now a fan.
16 243 One day she commented to me -- I
17 guess it was at 6:30 -- that "As it Happens" is her
18 favourite program. I said: "Why is that?" And she
19 said: "Well, I really like the stories."
20 244 That taught me a number of things
21 about young people. One of them is that programming
22 especially created for young people is not always
23 necessary. I thought of how kids like to listen in on
24 adult conversations. I think that is a very important
25 thing.
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1 245 There are all kinds of spinoffs from
2 her interest in the CBC. She listens to more than "As
3 it Happens". In fact, the things she hears and hears
4 us talking about -- and she gets involved in the
5 conversations -- lead to expansion of all kinds of
6 things. So it becomes this wonderful teaching
7 opportunity.
8 246 So another thing that the CBC does
9 well, and should continue to do, is to spark
10 conversations among people so that it doesn't just end
11 when you turn off the television or turn off the radio;
12 that there is a continuation.
13 247 Finally, I want to say a couple of
14 things about the special role of the CBC. This really,
15 as it stands, does not apply to the television aspect
16 of it, as far as I can judge, to a great extent,
17 although I do depend, as I said, on CBC TV for some
18 news importing and comedy shows.
19 248 I think the special role of the CBC,
20 besides all the details of programming, is an approach.
21 Really, it is a question of values. I was trying to
22 sum it up in one word, and I wrote down a few words.
23 One is critical; another is trustworthy; another is
24 intelligent; and serious.
25 249 I think the fact that the radio has
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1 remained non-commercial is one of the key reasons why
2 the CBC can uphold those kinds of values and that we,
3 as Canadians, can trust it to give a critical view.
4 250 Those are my thoughts.
5 251 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr.
6 Gerry, for joining us today.
7 252 We will continue. As we said
8 earlier, we are proceeding with the first ten
9 registered participants and then we will probably take
10 a break.
11 253 We will proceed now with No. 9. Is
12 that correct?
13 254 MR. LAHAY: Mr. Charlie Smith.
14 255 THE CHAIRPERSON: No. 8.
15 1400
16 256 MR. LAHAY: Mr. Smith.
17 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
18 257 MR. SMITH: My name is Charlie Smith.
19 I am from Massey. I am a farmer and I write a bit.
20 258 CBC is one of the foundations of my
21 life. I am on a party line so I can't use the Net.
22 That doesn't matter because I have CBC. The radio is
23 always on. It wakes me in the morning. It is CBC in
24 my wife's car; it is CBC in my farm truck.
25 259 When it is summer and the days are
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1 long, I eat breakfast before the sun is up and I listen
2 to Deutschvella(ph), Australia, Holland and Radio
3 France. I hear the world on my little hill, thanks to
4 CBC. In the winter, when it is the nights that are
5 long and my cows are calving in the cold and I sit up
6 half the night to watch for calves, it is CBC and me.
7 260 It is northern Ontario CBC that tells
8 me what is going on in my community. It is through the
9 radio that the wind of the nation blows, and it is CBC
10 that gives me a window on the world.
11 261 I am an information junkie. I am a
12 wordsmith. It is CBC that gives me a voice.
13 262 I want you to think, when there is a
14 push in some far place, when the junta takes control
15 and the rebels storm the capital, what is the first
16 thing they take over? The radio stations.
17 263 I am not an executive type, but I am
18 a farmer and I know you can't starve a profit out of
19 anything. I know there are sacred trusts: the land,
20 honour and communication. Are we throttling
21 communication? Is it necessary to make wealth out of
22 the nation's voice? Is this a real priority?
23 264 As a people we care. We care enough
24 to send aid, aircraft, ships and troops halfway around
25 the world. We stick our cold noses into other people's
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1 business and never mind the cost. But we can't afford
2 to hear our own voices bouncing back out of the
3 darkness. Shame!
4 265 You might think that I am just one
5 voice, but there are lots of people like me. We here
6 are just the yappy peaks of the silent iceberg. It is
7 rally the listeners who shape the land. We hear, we
8 think, we speak. If you think it is in the nation's
9 best interest to restrict our ears, then we will
10 wonder: What is the agenda?
11 266 So far I have spoken of the radio.
12 The radio is most important to me. Why? Because they
13 have already screwed up CBC TV. I am disenchanted with
14 it. It has become little more than another television
15 station, full of ads trying to sell me things I don't
16 need.
17 267 I only get two television stations
18 with any regularity; and like I said, I am an
19 information junkie. I find myself watching CTV more of
20 the time. Oh, there are some very good CBC programs.
21 I need not list them; we all know what they are. But
22 CBC has gotten way too commercial.
23 268 When the hockey playoffs are on, they
24 even pre-empt the news. My God, the news. Let the
25 private broadcaster have professional sports.
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1 269 Speaking of the news, why in the name
2 of goodness is there no CBC local news? Why do I have
3 to count on Baton Broadcasting -- that is MCTV -- for
4 local televised events? They do a very good job, but
5 where is CBC? They have the expertise to do a dandy
6 job on radio. Why can't they do something similar on
7 television? Another point of view would be refreshing.
8 270 CBC television goes off the air
9 pretty early around here. Couldn't the Parliamentary
10 Question Period be shown then? What could that cost?
11 Hell, we don't even need a commentator. We can think.
12 --- Laughter / Rires
13 271 Sports -- I want to talk about
14 sports. I mentioned hockey, but I am not done bitching
15 about sports.
16 272 I like sports, but they show the
17 wrong ones most of the time. Hunting season comes to
18 the north. It is the major seasonal event. It is not
19 on television. There is a little interview show by the
20 Hunters and Anglers Organization, and that's it.
21 273 Did you ever see how Michigan
22 television stations cover hunting? Wow! We could
23 learn a thing or two there.
24 274 Hunting might be a bit politically
25 incorrect, but that is partially CBC's fault. They
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1 broadcasting Disneyesque anti-hunting nonsense and
2 never show the real thing. In this area, there are
3 more hunters than there are curlers, hockey players and
4 figure skaters combined. There are 1.25 million
5 outdoor cards sold in Ontario alone.
6 275 The Canadian Winter Games were on. I
7 saw none of it. None of it! Our winter games were not
8 on. Maybe they have forgotten what CBC stands for.
9 Did you watch the last Olympics, winter or summer?
10 Canadians did very well at some sports -- shooting, for
11 instance. We got to see lots of people on skates. We
12 didn't do that good on ice.
13 276 But I don't recall seeing some
14 athletes, not even getting their medals. Gold is gold.
15 277 There were Canadians winning gold.
16 Our national anthem, our flag proudly raised, the
17 pinnacle of some proud Canadian's life-long effort.
18 But CBC chose to show someone losing at something more
19 popular.
20 278 That is the problem.
21 Commercialization is destroying CBC TV. The bottom
22 line shouldn't be the almighty buck. The mandate
23 should be to enlighten, to educate, to unite; to
24 showcase Canadian performers, Canadian athletes,
25 Canadian interests of all types.
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1 279 CBC radio still hangs on as a
2 national voice, but CBC TV is the eyes and the eyes are
3 half blind. The eyes are full of dollar signs. The
4 eyes are focused on the lowest common denominator.
5 That is a shame, and it's up to you to fix it.
6 280 Thank you.
7 281 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr.
8 Smith.
9 282 Where did you say your farm is again?
10 283 MR. SMITH: Massey.
11 284 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
12 1407
13 285 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair.
14 286 Daryl Shandro.
15 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
16 287 MS SHANDRO: I have lived in Sudbury
17 now for about seven years, and I am one of what I
18 consider to be a growing number of economically
19 displaced Canadians. I am an Atlantic Canadian. Most
20 of us are displaced these days. We spend most of our
21 working lives in a series of different communities
22 across the country.
23 288 As more and more Canadians are forced
24 to move around the country for employment purposes, I
25 believe the CBC's mandate is becoming more and more
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1 important; that is, allowing and encouraging Canadians
2 to know about and communicate with each other.
3 289 As well as that, I think that more
4 recently it has become more common that it keeps people
5 in touch with their home communities, their historic
6 communities, as well as introducing them to their
7 prospective communities.
8 290 I don't think that most people here
9 or in Nova Scotia would know that there is a housing
10 crisis in Calgary if it wasn't for the CBC. I don't
11 think many of us would know how to make decisions on
12 things like the relevance of the turbot wars a few
13 years ago, and things like that, living here, or the
14 arguments over seal quotas, if it wasn't for the CBC.
15 291 I am going to speak mainly about CBC
16 Radio One, because that is what I listen to. We don't
17 have Radio Two here. A few people have already griped
18 about that, and I will add my name to that list. I
19 think that should be a national service, and it isn't.
20 292 Here we have weekly provincial and
21 regional reports that are broadcast nationally. They
22 provide, in my opinion, more stories in more depth than
23 the national newspapers and all of the flagship news
24 programs on television combined, and that is because
25 they are locally oriented.
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1 293 Many of them talk about far-flung
2 outposts of the nation. I have lived in some of them,
3 so I am very interested in what is happening in places
4 like Whitehorse, Corner Brook and St. John's.
5 294 I believe that the recent cuts over
6 the last maybe ten years have really taken a bite out
7 of the type of regional programming that I depend on to
8 keep in touch with different places that I have lived
9 in. It really hurt when the noon programs were lost.
10 And they have been lost pretty well right across the
11 country, the regional noon programs.
12 295 We have fewer story-tellers and we
13 have fewer stories, and this really does hurt people
14 trying to keep in touch with other parts of the
15 country.
16 296 There have been calls to introduce --
17 and I have heard these calls -- some amount of
18 commercial interests and advertising to different, at
19 this point, non-commercial programming, like Radio One.
20 I think, as with the television programming, that would
21 be an enormous mistake. For me, it is a matter of
22 journalistic quality. There are well-known
23 international scholars like Noam Tronsky(ph), who have
24 attributed our access to better news in Canada to the
25 existence of our national broadcaster.
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1 297 I would think that for those of us
2 who are real news junkies and read everything available
3 and listen to whatever we can there is a noticeable
4 difference between the quality and the depth of the
5 journalism between CBC and your 90-second blurb that
6 you are going to get on other radio channels and that
7 you are going to get on national TV. They now only
8 cover most of -- even the CBC's "National" program will
9 cover only six or seven stories; where you may have
10 depth, you just don't have the numbers of stories from
11 different places.
12 298 Economic restructuring in Canada
13 hasn't just made us move all over the place; I think it
14 has complicated the job of responsible journalism. I
15 think it is really important that the CBC -- because
16 the CBC is a link and it helps us make political
17 decisions and it has the mandate. I believe it alone
18 has the mandate to do that, to tell us what we should
19 think about cod quotas, whether we should care about
20 salmon in British Columbia, and the new government in
21 Nunavut coming in.
22 299 Because the restructuring in Canada
23 has caused universities and a number of different
24 institutions to start asking for more corporate
25 funding, I think it is important that when there is a
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1 release of a study or of information, that along with
2 it the public broadcaster should be required to at
3 least divulge the nature of the funding that underlies
4 the information that is being given. If there is an
5 interest that is not publicly known on the part of the
6 experts that they are interviewing, or the group that
7 is releasing the study, that should be made public as
8 well.
9 300 I would think if that can't be, then
10 the story should not air, regardless of how much you
11 don't like CTV or someone else to air it first. I
12 think it really hurts us to have certain studies being
13 reported as somehow disinterested objective fact when
14 they are released by the Fraser Institute or the C.D.
15 Howe Institute, or it is a study released by Novo
16 Pharmaceuticals, and the experts are drawn from people
17 who may be on the boards of these various institutions.
18 301 Either the nature of the funding or
19 the actual funders, if there are very few and they are
20 very large and influential, should be divulged at the
21 same time as the research results.
22 302 In places like Sudbury, I think that
23 is really important. We don't live in Toronto. For
24 me, that is important because we don't have the kind of
25 access to a lot of media that some people in the
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1 country do. Our alternative media, alternative to the
2 CBC -- because I think of them as the other guys -- as
3 far as radio goes, are almost all owned by the same
4 company here in town. Our English "daily" has been
5 taken over by Conrad Black.
6 303 Since then, a lot of the journalism
7 and some of the local content, and things like that,
8 while I am not sure about bias, certainly it has become
9 much more uniform. There are fewer voices. There is a
10 much more narrow range for you to choose from, as far
11 as views.
12 304 I think it is perhaps time for us to
13 think about adding to the national mandate and being
14 quite specific about CBC having some kind of role in
15 regional programming. I think that that would help do
16 two things. One, it would give us all an excuse to ask
17 for please, please more funding so that our local
18 people can do their job better to send stories about us
19 to other Canadians. It would also mean that we would
20 be able to have the kind of local coverage that we
21 need.
22 305 I think people in PEI were squawking
23 about this; that in some cases, really you don't have a
24 lot of good alternatives at your command, depending on
25 where you live in Canada, to the CBC. So with any loss
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1 of local programming, you really have lost an
2 incredibly valuable link to your community.
3 306 If there is one other thing on the
4 wish list, my kids -- my mother lives in Edmonton, and
5 I have an aunt in Grand Falls, Newfoundland. My family
6 is kind of spread all over God's green earth.
7 307 My children -- I have some teenagers
8 and some little folks -- really believe that --
9 308 There has been some noise about them
10 needing to get some youth involved in listening to the
11 programs. My kids listen to the local university
12 channel for user-friendly youth-friendly alternative
13 music. I think that while we have a pop music show
14 that airs nationally, it doesn't actually cover very
15 much of that kind of thing, which is why my kids feel
16 that they have to go to the Laurentian University
17 channel.
18 309 We may actually lose the Laurentian
19 University channel, and it's the only one that is ever
20 on the dial other than CBC. It would be nice, if they
21 are going to look at youth, for them to not just look
22 at -- they do listen to "Between the Covers", but they
23 like music. Music is extremely important to these
24 characters. So it would be very good to have some of
25 our music programming for them -- at least they think
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1 it would. I'm not too sure.
2 310 It is my understanding that there are
3 a number of new services sort of on the table. I
4 really believe that the CRTC should urge the CBC to
5 consider expanding Radio Two to becoming a truly
6 national program; that if indeed there is going to be
7 another radio programming available -- they want a new
8 channel. I believe, for French, a French news radio
9 channel. But their proposal at this point is something
10 like Ottawa, Moncton and Montreal. I don't believe
11 they should be bringing in new programs that don't go
12 across the nation, that are not universally accessible.
13 311 To me, to be proposing on-line
14 services before you actually give francophone Canadians
15 a national news service on the radio that goes right
16 across the country, seems a little absurd.
17 312 It is my understanding -- and I could
18 be wrong; perhaps things have gone crazy since the last
19 time I checked in on the numbers -- that less than 30
20 per cent of Canadians have computers. And some of them
21 are like our friend the farmer over here who has a
22 party line. He can't get on the Internet. This would
23 be something that would only be available to people who
24 have computers, money for a server and don't live in
25 really far-flung rural areas.
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1 313 I am reasonably sure that most of us
2 -- at least I would prefer to have Radio Two come to me
3 so that I have some choice between my radio -- most of
4 us can afford a radio, and a lot of us can't afford
5 Internet and a computer -- and that they make the more
6 universal and democratic forms available right across
7 the country uniformly before they go tossing a bunch of
8 money at Internet services.
9 314 Apart from that, I would just like to
10 say that I could not imagine my life without CBC radio.
11 I live and die by it. I work out of my home, and it
12 would be a great loss. We call ourselves CBC-holics in
13 my family, and when we call each other we talk about
14 our kids, the weather and what Michael Enright said
15 this morning.
16 315 While I am strongly in support, I am
17 really, really worried that I am going to lose my
18 public broadcaster to funding cuts; that I am going to
19 lose the things that I value most about CBC and CBC
20 radio to funding cuts.
21 316 Thank you.
22 317 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very
23 much, Ms Shandro.
24 318 Our next presenter, please.
25 1421
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1 319 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair.
2 320 Marian Gilmour will be the final
3 presenter of the first ten.
4 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
5 321 MS GILMOUR: Good afternoon. I
6 debated about doing this, particularly after realizing
7 that most of the arguments have already been presented,
8 either here today or in hearings in other parts of the
9 country. But here I am and wondering if in fact one
10 person can make a difference.
11 322 My inspiration for thinking so comes
12 from that delightful senior Betty Hyde in Ottawa who
13 challenged the President of the Royal Bank over the
14 closure of a branch in her neighbourhood. When asked
15 by a reporter what gave her the confidence that one
16 little person could make a difference, her reply was:
17 "Certainly they can. Have you ever been in bed with a
18 mosquito?"
19 --- Laughter / Rires
20 323 Using the questions suggested by the
21 Commission as a guide, may I present my personal
22 position -- and it is not a commercial for the CBC.
23 324 In my view, the CBC fulfils its role
24 as the national broadcaster. It has done for Canada in
25 the 20th Century what the railroads did in the 19th.
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1 The latter opened up the country geographically and
2 linked it physically from sea to sea. The CBC opens
3 our eyes, ears, minds and perhaps even our hearts to
4 our fellow countrymen; and though a transcontinental
5 journey by train is not as accommodating today, we have
6 the CBC to transport us from community to community,
7 from province to province to territory, and even
8 beyond.
9 325 I will be in Cuba later this week
10 where I will be able to get CBC TV. And how
11 gratifying, as a Canadian, it was to watch some of
12 those excellent CBC docudramas when I was recently in
13 Johannesburg, South Africa.
14 326 Our daily lives are illuminated and
15 enriched by the opportunity to know what other
16 Canadians are doing, thinking, enduring and enjoying.
17 I can be enlightened, amused, comforted and angered all
18 in one program. I appreciate the mind-stretching
19 capability.
20 327 Next question:
21 "Should the CBC fulfil its role
22 in a different manner in the
23 next millennium?"
24 328 Certainly there must be changes in
25 fulfilling its role, but not its role. Technology is
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1 changing, but human nature does not. We will always --
2 and I emphasize "always" -- need this effective
3 unifying force in this country.
4 329 I am involved in our local public
5 library, and we have agonized over the debate, books or
6 technology, and have concluded that one complements the
7 other rather than destroying it. It has taken some
8 inventive minds to deal with the situation. I feel
9 confident that the CBC can do likewise.
10 330 As to how well it serves on a
11 regional basis, I am not particularly qualified to
12 comment on this because there are many regions in
13 Canada. But I will say that here, our local CBC radio
14 manages, in my estimation, exceptionally well with its
15 resources. I think credit goes to local staff and
16 management.
17 331 But where is Radio Two?
18 332 Two years ago we were very excited
19 about the prospects of having both Radio One and Two.
20 What happened?
21 333 Is the answer that overused excuse,
22 budget cuts? Not a good enough one for this lady.
23 After 40 years in the classroom, I recognize "dog ate
24 my homework" explanation.
25 --- Laughter / Rires
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1 334 More on money later.
2 335 Should the CBC be different from
3 other broadcasters? An equivocal "yes". The CBC is
4 unique and therein lies its appeal, despite the
5 increase in advertising, which harks back again to
6 money. I am just thankful that I have a mute button.
7 336 If the CBC were not different, there
8 would be no reason for it to exist.
9 337 In the early 19th Century, a young
10 Joseph Howe(ph) made an impassioned plea in the courts
11 of Nova Scotia that the legacy to our children should
12 be an unfettered press. He was referring to
13 newspapers, but the same plea could be made today on
14 behalf of the CBC.
15 338 You ask what the differences for the
16 CBC should be. Well, it is just that: a media
17 designed to communicate to and with Canadian people,
18 free of commercial and political coercion. No shackles
19 on Terry Milewsky or "Fifth Estate", please.
20 339 There is a plethora of choice
21 provided by the private broadcasters -- an over-supply,
22 in my mind -- so why would the CBC feel compelled to
23 provide more of the same?
24 340 I gather, too, there is concern that
25 the CBC has no audience, no constituency under 30.
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1 Surprise? Of course not.
2 341 How many of you CBC supporters were
3 devotees in your youth? I don't think this is a big
4 problem, because even if the CBC does not capture their
5 audience until 30 or 35, they have them for the next 50
6 years.
7 342 My own children, now in their
8 thirties, are converts to CBC radio, once described
9 only as "mother's station". Whether it is fashion,
10 music, books, radio or TV, it is pretty difficult to
11 determine what the trends will be after "Friendly
12 Giant".
13 343 That is where other broadcasters can,
14 among them, do the catering.
15 344 On the topic of differences, I think
16 the CBC may already be there. I have an American
17 sister who lives in California. When I tease her about
18 being at the end of the rainbow, she tells me she is
19 not because there is no CBC or anything comparable
20 there.
21 345 I spend my summers in a part of the
22 province that has a great appeal for our southern
23 neighbours. One friend from West Virginia claims that
24 if our country offered no other attraction than having
25 the CBC, it would still draw her north each year.
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1 346 Another, from Boston, says that in
2 travelling north to Canada they sense the difference in
3 our two cultures as soon as the car radio picks up the
4 CBC.
5 347 Another, from North Carolina, says
6 that our radio is so civilized that the people who give
7 it a voice have class.
8 348 My sister also tells me that those
9 two satirical programs "This Hour" and "Air Farce"
10 would not likely last beyond one airing south of the
11 border. I am not anti-USA, but rather like that line
12 from the Arrogant Worms: "We don't think we are
13 better; we are just not as worse."
14 349 I have already moved to the fourth
15 question regarding the special role that the CBC should
16 play in presenting Canadian programming. Quite simply,
17 it should reflect our particular identity. And I think
18 it does very well. And there is such a thing as a
19 Canadian identity.
20 350 I don't think that the CBC should be
21 out beating the entertainment bushes to find an Oprah,
22 a Jerry Springer or a Frantic Evangelist. That is not
23 really us. We are Rex Murphy people, who find that
24 Newfoundlander's patient, polite and diplomatic probing
25 of the nation's psyches to our liking. "Ideas" and
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1 "Tapestry" to stimulate our minds; "Radio Noon" and
2 "Canada Today" that bring us the human interest stories
3 on ice storms; the street people; the maple syrup
4 industry; the Monsanto, or otherwise, saga; Lindsay
5 McIntyre's usually disturbing investigations of how
6 wrong we can sometimes go; Knowlton Nash still
7 commanding our attention and respect.
8 351 Who can resist "As it Happens"? I
9 was pleased to hear that they have a 12-year-old fan.
10 352 These programs are a reflection of
11 all Canadians and how we see ourselves: the good, the
12 bad, and the in between. They probably do more to
13 bring the country together than all the legislation and
14 constitutional conferences and free flags put together.
15 353 Finally, on the question of financing
16 -- the last but not the least concern. To placate our
17 demand for a continuing vigorous and meaningful CBC it
18 is not sufficient to cry budget cuts or talk about
19 market values. I know these have happened.
20 354 I decry the recent recall of some
21 foreign journalists, because I worry about where our
22 news from those places will come.
23 355 But we know there is money in Ottawa.
24 We dutifully daily and annually supply those deep
25 coffers. Oh, April is the cruellest month! It is not
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1 necessarily a matter of higher taxes, although one
2 caller on the Sunday evening suggested that people
3 might be willing to pay more if they had more say on
4 how the moneys are spent.
5 356 I believe that it is a question of
6 priorities with our government, and that is why I am so
7 uneasy. So much so that I have been emboldened to
8 appear here today. I believe it is the responsibility
9 of our government to see that for the CBC, there is
10 adequate funding, competent management, maintenance of
11 its high standards into the next millennium.
12 357 In viewing the Canadian cultural
13 scene, it is obvious that the CBC remains the sole
14 institution that can be described as truly Canadian.
15 358 Let me say, in conclusion, for that
16 reason alone, if we care about Canada, the CBC must
17 endure.
18 359 Thank you very much for the
19 opportunity. I feel better already. Maybe this
20 mosquito will be noticed.
21 --- Applause / Applaudissements
22 360 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very
23 much, Mrs. Gilmour. We really appreciate you being
24 here today with us to share your thoughts.
25 361 Mr. Secretary.
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1 362 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair.
2 363 I would like to, once again, for the
3 record, call speakers 2 and 3 of the first ten:
4 Catherine Meyer and Rosemay Connell.
5 364 Please make yourself known to the
6 Commission if you wish to speak.
7 365 No response, Madam Chair.
8 366 THE CHAIRPERSON: Then that completes
9 the first ten. I think we will take a break at this
10 point. We will reconvene in ten minutes -- it is now
11 2:30, so precisely at 2:40 -- with our next group of
12 ten.
13 367 On va prendre une pause pour six
14 minutes.
15 --- Recess at 1440 / Suspension à 1440
16 --- Upon resuming at 1445 / Reprise à 1445
17 368 THE CHAIRPERSON: We are going to
18 reconvene. On va commencer dans quelques secondes.
19 369 I would ask the Secretary to call out
20 the names of the next ten participants and ask you to
21 come to the table, please.
22 370 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair.
23 371 For the next ten presenters: Liz
24 Campbell; John Lindsay; Andrew Atkins; Marjorie
25 Reynolds; Eveline St-Denis; William Scoffield; Janna
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1 Ramsay Best; Steve Dodson; Jean and Pamela Charron; and
2 Patricia Hatala.
3 372 Please come forward and take a
4 position at the front table.
5 1450
6 373 We will start with Liz Campbell,
7 please.
8 374 I would again ask you to try to keep
9 your comments to ten minutes and to identify yourself
10 when you first start speaking so that we will have your
11 name for the record.
12 375 Thank you.
13 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
14 376 MS CAMPBELL: I am Liz Campbell. My
15 husband and I are from Massey. CBC Radio One is our
16 lifeline to the world, our connection to news stories
17 of national and international importance. Local
18 programming keeps us in touch with information in our
19 neighbourhood. CBC Radio One is our window on the
20 world. It keeps us company from early morning to late
21 at night. The varied programming, from light to
22 serious topics, stories, interviews, all delivered by
23 journalists who have become trusted friends across the
24 airwaves, as we move through daily chores.
25 377 Even the pain of a visit to my local
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1 dentist is eased by hearing familiar voices as I
2 recline in the chair.
3 378 The stimulus of excellence and
4 innovative delivery of programs is a great impetus for
5 thoughtful reflection and discussion.
6 379 Our vehicle radios are tuned to CBC
7 Radio One. In fact, they are programmed to several CBC
8 airwaves so we can find it easily, whether we are
9 travelling locally in the north or on longer trips to
10 visit family in southern Ontario.
11 380 CBC gives us the connection to issues
12 and people from far and wide across this vast land.
13 381 As a relatively new Canadian citizen,
14 coming from across the pond in the early 1970s, I find
15 it a continuous marvel to hear stories from communities
16 far and wide, large and small, across Canada, and
17 indeed across the world.
18 382 As we moved from southern Ontario
19 near Stratford, it was great comfort to know CBC Radio
20 One would be moving with us. It was tough enough to
21 find out that CBC Radio Two was not available to all of
22 Canada, including Massey. We used to enjoy having the
23 option of putting our feet up and listening to a
24 symphony.
25 383 CBC Radio Two is a nice option for
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1 about three-quarters of the population. However, CBC
2 Radio One is definitely not an option. After all, it is
3 the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation who speaks to the
4 people of Canada, and on shortwave radio and Internet
5 across the world.
6 384 Let's make sure the CBC continues to
7 keep its integrity.
8 385 Thank you.
9 386 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms
10 Campbell.
11 387 Mr. Secretary.
12 1455
13 388 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair.
14 389 John Lindsay, please.
15 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
16 390 MR. LINDSAY: Thank you very much.
17 391 As no one has as of yet, I would like
18 to thank the CRTC for being here with us and for indeed
19 being across the country listening to our concerns and
20 perhaps some of our suggestions, as well.
21 392 I am here representing a group called
22 Concerned Canadians for Local Radio here in Sudbury.
23 Our group is made up of local citizens from the
24 professions, labour, business, government and the arts,
25 and present and former broadcasters like myself.
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1 393 Our membership includes those from
2 the Chamber of Commerce, Sudbury and District Labour
3 Council, Business and Professional Women's Club, and
4 the Sudbury Arts Council; as well as support from the
5 Elizabeth Fry Society, the Canadian Mental Health
6 Association, Country Music Travellers, the Metro
7 Management Board, Sudbury Family Services, Regional
8 Palliative Care, the Addiction Awareness Coalition,
9 Sudbury Rotary, Sunrisers and our agency committee,
10 Industrial Development Commission, and so on.
11 394 We have made a number of
12 interventions over the years to the CRTC, particularly
13 with respect to the concentration of ownership in
14 private radio. This has largely been allowed to take
15 place. As a result, the value of CBC radio in
16 individual communities has an even greater importance
17 than before, if only for this reason alone.
18 395 With all private stations in a
19 community speaking with one voice -- and this is pretty
20 much the situation we have forthcoming in Sudbury. It
21 is the situation now in Timmins, Sault Ste. Marie and
22 North Bay, and in many other locations across the
23 country. The importance of the CBC, this one voice
24 will be there, we hope, to offer some alternative news,
25 thought, opinion and entertainment.
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1 396 My history is as both a fulltime and
2 part-time broadcaster for a number of years. I was
3 just thinking that some of the other people had related
4 their experiences of the years, and recalling back, my
5 first experience was as a very young teenager in
6 Oakville -- my uncle was postmaster so I got a job in
7 the post office in Oakville -- and on Saturday
8 afternoons there was an individual who would put on the
9 CBC very loud and we would all enjoy opera.
10 397 Many of you, who are perhaps as old
11 as I, will recall opera on a Saturday afternoon. Now
12 of course we have "Definitely Not The Opera", which is
13 a fine program and I listen to it myself, although I do
14 miss the opera. Perhaps it is on CBC Two. However, as
15 indicated by many who have gone before me and likely
16 will follow, we are deficit in that regard. I will
17 talk about that later.
18 398 One of my first jobs in broadcasting
19 was at Timmins, at CKGB. Back at that time, the
20 affiliates of course carried CBC programming. I was
21 introduced to -- of course starting in the evening, as
22 most young announcers would start -- CBC Wednesday
23 night, and of course every other night on CBC, and
24 became a real fan.
25 399 You will be surprised at how many
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1 private broadcasters are fans of the CBC, because when
2 you basically program drivel during the whole day you
3 appreciate having something a little more enlightening
4 at the end of the day.
5 400 I want to talk about both radio --
6 although our group is primarily concerned about radio,
7 I want to talk about TV as well, first of all, with
8 respect to the other services that have been talked
9 about -- audio, video and even web base that are
10 contemplated.
11 401 Before this happens, the provision of
12 over the air of CBC Radio Two service should be made
13 available to communities like Sudbury, which has been
14 far too long denied this service. Of course, it is
15 groups like ourselves who intervene with the CRTC if
16 other services are to be introduced before CBC Radio
17 Two services are to be made available across the
18 country.
19 402 With respect to radio, CBC radio has
20 suffered so much lately. This need not have happened.
21 We need more integration of programming, more national
22 and regional integration. This is just an idea,
23 because we do need the national programming, we do need
24 the local programming. We feel it should be
25 integrated, starting at early morning with 20 minutes
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1 of every hour local and regional and the other 40
2 minutes national, or perhaps vice versa, throughout the
3 week, from 6:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m. It would utilize
4 resources better and provide a wider and more diverse
5 audience for all programming.
6 403 Of special concern is the talent.
7 Local CBC does little to promote local talent. This
8 talent should be provided a venue to showcase their
9 abilities and to enrich our communities. This did
10 occur to a limited extent at one time here in Sudbury
11 and in the north, but was given very low priority.
12 This is a cultural activity, whether it is the
13 broadcasting of a local symphony concert or choir to a
14 high school rap group or university jazz combo.
15 404 If this does not seem to fit into the
16 programming of the CBC as they see it, then perhaps
17 some government funding should go to the many
18 university stations around the country to perform this
19 service.
20 405 We have an excellent university
21 station here in town, and I am privileged to have a
22 program on that station. We do promote local talent.
23 However, I feel that this should be the role of the CBC
24 as well. If they don't do it, maybe funding should be
25 provided, as I suggest, to university stations or
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1 others, or perhaps private radio, as it once was
2 required to do as a condition of their licence.
3 406 This is not the case now, of course,
4 and I doubt whether that is ever going to happen again.
5 407 Moving on to TV, we feel that CBC
6 should get out of commercial broadcasting on TV. The
7 cable TV Newsworld service should be integrated with
8 the present Over the Air service to make just one
9 channel. Let the private networks and stations do the
10 lowest common denominator stuff and the CBC concentrate
11 on more worthy, quality oriented programs, even if they
12 have to repeat them because of a lack of sufficient new
13 material.
14 408 This is not really a new idea.
15 Patrick Watson suggested it just a few years ago,
16 citing an example of the Avro Aero(ph) program which
17 was seen only once or twice.
18 409 On our 500-channel universe there is
19 little danger in repeating quality programming. The
20 only advertising allowed should be PBS-type
21 announcements.
22 410 This combination should mean, or
23 would mean perhaps, that we would retain the best of
24 both the cable CTV TV, which --
25 411 I was talking to a compatriot during
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1 our break and he said that Newsworld seems to be what
2 the CBC originally intended to do. Now if you don't
3 have cable, you don't get it.
4 412 By this suggestion, we would
5 amalgamate both. We would provide the service both on
6 cable and of course over the air.
7 413 The utilization of resources, there
8 doesn't seem to be too much rationalization in the
9 services. Some talk TV programs could be used on radio
10 as well and utilizing these resources more efficiently.
11 414 Vicki Gabereau disappeared. I think
12 she is on TV somewhere. I am not sure. Pamela Wallin
13 is on Newsworld, but I don't get to see it because I
14 don't have cable. Why isn't Pamela somehow on CBC
15 Radio One or Vicki on CBC Radio One? Surely talking
16 heads don't make much difference if it is on radio or
17 on TV.
18 415 Basically summarizing, I think the
19 CBC should forget about these other fancy services like
20 Internet programming and concentrate on the non-wired
21 public. Eventually, anything the CBC does well can be
22 made available on the Internet. We have streamed CBC
23 on the Internet at the present time.
24 416 It seems like they are bent on
25 developing new services while not servicing as well
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1 with what they have or what is available that just
2 doesn't make it up here.
3 417 It can be done. We can't afford
4 perhaps what we have now, but through the integration
5 of services, and speaking on behalf in a way of private
6 broadcasters who have been able to consolidate services
7 who have been able to integrate, who have been able to
8 really do a fairly good job as far as private
9 broadcasters are concerned. But we are talking about
10 national CBC service, local and regional CBC service,
11 which I believe can be much better than it is now; can
12 be integrated much more fully than it is now; and can
13 provide much greater service than it presently does.
14 418 Thank you very much.
15 1504
16 419 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very
17 much, Mr. Lindsay.
18 420 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair.
19 421 Andrew Atkins, please.
20 422 Marjorie Reynolds.
21 423 Eveline St-Denis.
22 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
23 424 MS ST-DENIS: My name is Eveline
24 St-Denis, from Sudbury. I wish to thank the Committee
25 for giving me the opportunity to speak here today. I
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1 am grateful for the chance to exercise my democratic
2 right of free speech as guaranteed by the Canadian
3 Charter of Rights.
4 425 I am here today to voice my concern
5 regarding a certain report which was broadcast on CBC's
6 "National Magazine" on January 19, 1999, namely "Thou
7 Shalt Not Kill", by Carol Hoft(ph).
8 426 I am disappointed in Ms Hoft's
9 reporting skills. A reporter's first and foremost duty
10 is to present the facts in a clear unbiased manner.
11 All sides of an issue must be presented if the report
12 is to be just. Unfortunately, Ms Hoft opted to show
13 only one side of the issue. She adopted the pro-choice
14 view of the issue exclusively, and therefore her
15 reporting was strongly biased and prejudiced against
16 the pro-life position.
17 427 Another aspect of her reporting which
18 I find disturbing is the fact that she chose to include
19 the American view of the issue. Since the report was
20 aired on a Canadian program funded by Canadian tax
21 dollars, it seems to me that this constitutes a misuse
22 of Canadian tax funds.
23 428 The abortion issue in the United
24 Stats is much different from the Canadian issue.
25 Canadian pro-lifers do not advocate the use of
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1 violence. I am appalled at Ms Hoft's misconstruing the
2 Canadian abortion issue by including an Americanized
3 view of the subject.
4 429 In a country where we clamour for
5 more Canadian content, the mixing of American views
6 with a Canadian issue is definitely a misunderstanding
7 of what Canadian content really means. Ms Hoft did not
8 allocate sufficient time to the Canadian pro-lifers to
9 state their position.
10 430 Jim Hughes, President of Campaign
11 Life, was allowed two minutes in a two-hour long
12 program. He is a key member of the Canadian Pro-Life
13 Movement and is definitely in a position to give an
14 exact picture of the pro-life mentality in this
15 country.
16 431 It seems to me that life and the
17 right to it is such an important and insensitive issue
18 that reports of this nature should be closely
19 scrutinized by the CBC to ensure quality reporting on a
20 national television corporation.
21 432 If the CBC is to allow reports such
22 as those of Ms Hoft's, it should also air reports to
23 support family values. Programs which would inform the
24 Canadian public on the beauty of life from its
25 conception, with presentations by Canadian geneticists
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1 to obstetricians, would certainly add more balance in
2 the presentation of this issue.
3 433 Why not see pregnancy as beautiful
4 any more? This approach would also be more educational
5 and would inform the Canadian public instead of playing
6 on people's emotions.
7 434 I believe a well informed Canadian
8 public would be well equipped to make a fair choice in
9 this issue. The CBC could rectify the biased reporting
10 by presenting the Pro-life Vigil on Parliament Hill on
11 May 14th to remember the 30th anniversary of the
12 Supreme Court ruling striking down the previously
13 existing Canadian law prohibiting abortion. Thousands
14 of Canadians will be present in a show of solidarity
15 and the right to life for every Canadian, from
16 conception to natural death.
17 435 I would certainly hope that the CBC
18 will be present on Parliament Hill on May 14, 1999.
19 436 I find the CBC is falling short on
20 its mandate when it fails to give unbiased reporting.
21 On the other hand, I do see a striving to protect
22 Canadian culture and buffer us from an overwhelming
23 tide of American influence in certain programs.
24 437 In the new millennium I believe the
25 CBC should strive to present television programming
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1 that encourages family values and morals and that
2 discourages violence. Children at this time are being
3 destroyed or mixed up by false misleading statements.
4 They need to know the truth and nothing but the truth.
5 438 The diversity of Canada's regions
6 needs to be respected and presented as they are, for
7 this will stimulate national pride. It will also
8 preserve small communities and the uniqueness of their
9 ways. This will also help to promote family values,
10 which are usually very strong in smaller centres.
11 439 The programming provided by CBC
12 should be different than that of other broadcasters.
13 Due to the fact that it is a publicly owned and funded
14 corporation, the CBC has a duty to preserve, promote
15 and exemplify Canadian culture and values. The CBC
16 should be a leader in the promotion of everything that
17 is good and beautiful in this country.
18 440 Since Canada has been named by the
19 United Nations as the best country in the world to live
20 in, the CBC should help to preserve this international
21 status by encouraging the adherence to strong family
22 values and non-violence.
23 441 I wish to thank the CRTC for allowing
24 me to speak on such important issues.
25 442 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Madam
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1 St-Denis.
2 1510
3 443 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair.
4 444 William Scoffield, please.
5 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
6 445 MR. SCOFFIELD: "Enter the church
7 organist with long thin face", said Bernard Shaw. I
8 guess that's me, Bill Scoffield, with fortissimo in the
9 middle.
10 446 I am the organist at St. Andrew's
11 United Church, Peterborough, graduate of 35 years of
12 secondary school teaching of math and music, and still
13 teaching a lot of piano, vocal, theory and that sort of
14 thing to both big and little. I speak for myself and
15 possibly me wife.
16 447 Whoever gets up first turns on the
17 radio -- to Radio One, of course. We love Radio Two,
18 but we seldom have time for it, because we are too busy
19 listening to Radio One.
20 448 Distinguished members of the CRTC and
21 friends, thank you for this wonderful opportunity to
22 address you after all my 5,000 e-mails to "CBC Input".
23 449 The questions, or shall I say the
24 answers: In my view, without knowing precisely the
25 duties as prescribed by Parliament, the CBC does most
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1 of the things it should as a national public
2 broadcaster extremely well and then some.
3 450 Changes I would like to see for the
4 new millennium, as you asked, or any time in the
5 future, I will mention in a moment.
6 451 The CBC serves the public rather well
7 on a regional level, I think, but I wish I could avoid
8 the Toronto traffic reports somehow, except on the few
9 days a year when I travel there.
10 452 The programming provided by the CBC
11 should definitely be different from the public
12 broadcasters. The CBC, please, must do what the
13 privates are not doing.
14 453 My wife warned me that I shouldn't
15 use that word for them, because there might be some old
16 men on the board who would know what "the privates"
17 are.
18 454 In any rate, we must no do what the
19 privates are doing. What they do should be done
20 without advertising, not even the fund raising that
21 plagues TV Zero and the American PBS. What is the
22 point of having a public broadcaster doing what the
23 privates are doing?
24 455 I believe that when private
25 broadcasters can provide uncut Canadian films, all
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1 those lovely things made by our Canadian directors and
2 companies and the National Film Board -- when they
3 provide those without interruption, all the ones we
4 can't see in our own movie theatres, when the privates
5 can provide the public affairs programs that CBC radio
6 currently has without being beholden to businesses,
7 when the privates can provide serious music -- oh, oh,
8 what a word, but there is no other available. When
9 they can provide serious music and lots of nostalgic
10 music, like Adrian Schuman(ph), without advertising;
11 when the privates can present our Canadian symphonies
12 and writers as the CBC does now -- or did until
13 "Morningside" and "Vicki Gabereau" disappeared -- then
14 maybe we won't need the CBC.
15 456 And that kind of answers your fourth
16 question too.
17 457 Here are my suggestions for some
18 changes.
19 458 For goodness sake, let's have more
20 funds for radio; and second, and very important, let's
21 take away the political control that is so
22 objectionable.
23 459 There should be a board governing the
24 CBC -- and I have no idea how it is made up at the
25 moment. The board should be made up of representatives
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1 from any number of important organizations, like just
2 one please from the Canadian Chamber of Commerce and
3 one from the Council of Canadians and the National
4 Citizens Coalition, and all the other similar
5 organizations. But the Musicians Union should have a
6 couple of people there, and one representing each of
7 the major professions -- not forgetting the Royal
8 Canadian College of Organists, please -- and one
9 representing the popular --
10 460 Of course, there is going to be too
11 large a board. There are going to be thousands of
12 people. They can get together every two years -- at
13 their own expense, please -- and elect an inner board
14 of the same size as the present one, without all that
15 political meddling. That board, to me, should have
16 complete power, such as raising its own funds like the
17 school boards in Ontario used to do and appoint its own
18 executive officers without politics interfering.
19 461 Just one rule: no salaries for
20 anybody larger than a sitting MP, perhaps the PM's
21 salary for the head boy.
22 462 The gold-plated advisors in Ottawa
23 can certainly figure out exactly how to do all of this
24 -- that is what they are paid for -- but our national
25 broadcaster must not be obligated in any way to them.
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1 At the same time, because the CBC will probably only
2 serve the minority that really cares about the country
3 and culture and all of the rest, there must be some
4 protection from disruptions that could result if a new
5 CBC had to "go to the people" directly for their funds.
6 463 It is not hard to think that the
7 majority of Canadians -- and that majority is
8 increasing all the time, I think -- would not see the
9 value of what we have and what we have had, and they
10 could easily end it.
11 464 It is like the French population in
12 Quebec. It is a minority, a minority there that
13 Parliament and the rest of Canadians protect; and it is
14 a minority of Canadians who really use the CBC as it
15 was intended. We can't afford to lose it.
16 465 Some will call my viewpoints elitist,
17 especially when you hear what else I would like to see
18 happen, but I don't feel that I am a member of any
19 elite, believe me.
20 466 Just because the majority of
21 Canadians actually listen to what is called pop radio,
22 to use a very poorly chosen term, because it means what
23 I play isn't popular -- which it is -- it doesn't mean
24 that we should have no CBC. It does mean that CBC
25 radio does not need to plug pop music, from my point of
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1 view, at all.
2 467 Where else can we find the
3 information we need in order to be participating
4 citizens if our daily lives are so rushed, as mine
5 seems to be even in retirement, that we hardly have
6 time to read a newspaper. What a godsend to anybody
7 who spends much time commuting is the CBC radio. We
8 need it.
9 468 And talking heads, to the gentlemen
10 who just spoke from Sudbury, do make a difference if
11 they are on the radio. You don't need to watch them
12 while you are driving your car. And that's a real
13 plus.
14 469 I would like to see CBC TV much more
15 like TV Zero used to be. If that means CTV does
16 "Hockey Night in Canada", so be it. Maybe in the
17 interests of true Canadian culture, the CBC should
18 continue with "Hockey Night in Canada" and simply
19 distribute it freely to all local stations provided it
20 is presented with no ads.
21 470 Especially this might be a time to
22 ask if the national game, at least in Canada, should be
23 organized around the current advertising, as it is,
24 instead of the opposite. To me, the advertising should
25 surround the game, not the game surround the
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1 advertising. This is a terrible situation for our
2 national game.
3 471 I believe the CBC and our taxpayers
4 have a way to change that.
5 472 What I regard as even more terrible
6 concerns Radio One -- I forgot to turn my watch on --
7 which has to many excellent current affairs programs
8 that I seldom have it off, not even when Bill
9 Richardson is on, except during DNTO, of course, when I
10 have the opera on.
11 473 What a jolt when just after you have
12 heard an interview with some exceptional person that
13 CBC has no trouble finding -- like the people here
14 today -- after an unbelievable gold mine of information
15 or culture, or whatever, the interviewer says "oh, we
16 are out of time", and the wonderful web of intricate
17 thought is shattered by some hick, hayseed three-note
18 endlessly drummed so-called music that sounds more like
19 a murder.
20 474 If it is an all news and information
21 station, let's leave out any music, because we
22 obviously can't agree on what the music should be --
23 including those mindless themes. If there must be
24 theme music and those jarring little four-note
25 dissonances on the hour, how about fair representation
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1 of other musical forms than electronic. Use the
2 electronic stuff on Monday when I am busy playing
3 hockey; Mozart on Tuesday; pipe organ stuff on
4 Wednesday -- and I will play all you want for $40 an
5 hour.
6 475 Yes, I am serious. No music on Radio
7 One, please, because anything a person doesn't like
8 spoils the quality of what is there. If you have to
9 fill up the holes while the announcers or the hosts, or
10 whatever they are, take a breath, have a Bob Johnson
11 historical comment again.
12 476 Did you hear the solo bassoon on "As
13 It Happens Last Night"? What class to hear just a
14 bassoon chuckling away after some interview or other,
15 that I have even forgotten already. Short-term memory
16 problems, I tell you.
17 477 For 35 years of teaching secondary
18 school music, math and English, I think there were
19 always two or three programs listed on the blackboard
20 every day for every student. What pride I had writing
21 those on the blackboard. "Don't miss this, kids." And
22 they listened to me.
23 478 I was so gratified when out of a
24 class of 30 you had two or three at the end of the year
25 say "thanks for introducing us to that radio station".
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1 I always felt able to recommend CBC radio, either
2 branch, to students any time.
3 479 I often felt I was a salesman for the
4 CBC, with no regrets. And they never even knew.
5 480 The students who tuned in were the
6 winners. But now I would not recommend CBC One for
7 information or music, because the kids I am trying to
8 teach great music to are just hearing too much of the
9 same sort of stuff that is permeating Radio One. Some
10 would argue that pop music reflects modern taste, but I
11 feel it only shows how impoverished our children are
12 that they would turn to the mindless crap that
13 masquerades as music throughout our country.
14 481 How can our children develop good
15 taste -- whatever that is -- if they are only served
16 junk food?
17 482 I have six more burning desires,
18 which I hope I can fit in my ten minutes -- or am I
19 over already? -- whatever good this might do, in spite
20 of what the costs might be.
21 483 First, why can't a national
22 broadcaster have the same radio frequency across the
23 country, or three or four or five frequencies, so that
24 travellers like me, who spend five hours in the car
25 getting here, don't have to go through five separate
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1 frequencies to keep tuned in to Michael Enright. Bless
2 him.
3 484 Second, why can't we have all the
4 French TV with English subtitles -- I get a lot of
5 French TV on my dish and on my aerial -- and vice
6 versa, at least for the newscasts, so that those of who
7 want to experience some French have something down at
8 the bottom to go by. That would be very cheap.
9 485 They even have it in our health club,
10 a guy talking -- and you can't hear him because it's
11 the health club and the music is too loud. Down at the
12 bottom are the subtitles.
13 486 Along the same lines, how about Cross
14 -- it should be called "Happy Country Check-up", seven
15 days a week, and all the French radio stations as well,
16 with simultaneous translations both ways so our two
17 solitudes can at last speak to each other. And Rex
18 gets no holidays. Well, I would be happy to stand in
19 for him a couple of times just for fun, if anybody else
20 could stand it.
21 487 Third, is there some way we can avoid
22 personalities becoming so important? I am sure there
23 are many academics in Canada who would love to plan a
24 week of ideas -- and would probably do it for the love
25 of it, if you want to save some money. And why can't
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1 we hear less of those hosts during the day and more
2 freelance interviewers?
3 488 Often the hosts and/or interviewers
4 seem to get in the way of the ideas flowing from their
5 subjects. If there were no shows and they were
6 nameless, like CKO All News Radio used to be, the hosts
7 would not own them and use them as a base for
8 popularity.
9 489 I quote from the Albany Institute, I
10 believe, down in New York State:
11 "Pity the country that needs
12 heroes."
13 490 The guy's first name is Herman. You
14 will have to look it up.
15 491 Fourth, it was Perrin Beatty who said
16 just a few days ago that a CBC Three was being planned
17 for young people. Spare us. All you have is for young
18 people. It is the best quality stuff there is, and
19 don't give them anything less, please. The whole CBC
20 has been drummed down, at least Radio One, over the
21 last few years just to attract those who will never be
22 interested anyway.
23 492 Give us the best material you can so
24 that those of us who have a little influence with
25 young folk -- if any -- can hold up what you do with
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1 pride and not seem loony when a younger person does
2 follow our advice. Why can't listening to CBC become
3 almost an expectation of adulthood and participatory
4 citizenship in Canada? Well, maybe not for absolutely
5 everyone.
6 493 I can just imagine a CBC for the
7 younger generation. Endless DNTO. That's what the
8 privates do. Leave it to them.
9 494 Fifth, if there is to be a CBC
10 Three, why not make it a strictly call-in station with
11 no hosts, no announcements and as little editing as
12 possible, like the news groups and e-mail lists on the
13 Internet.
14 495 For example, if I have something to
15 say -- like I always have -- I call the number. I have
16 three minutes. My message is checked for profanity and
17 hate messages, and broadcast. The phones are open
18 until the available time on CBC Three is used, and then
19 shut down.
20 496 Think of that. The budget for that
21 station would be like three million bucks a year.
22 Allow us to speak to each other as Canadians without
23 interference.
24 497 Along the same lines, have you any
25 idea how I would love to hear that little church choir
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1 out in Nanaimo singing Stayner's(ph) Crucifixion,
2 however badly, to compare with my own. And I would
3 like them to hear my choir from my church with
4 octogenarians singing Stayner's Crucifixion or some
5 other miraculous work of music.
6 498 How about a CBC Four with no Robert
7 Coopers or Howard Dicks deciding what is good enough
8 for national consumption. Amateurs deserve to be heard
9 much more than they are. I can't think of a better
10 vehicle than a low budget nation-wide station that
11 simply plays recordings submitted by amateurs with no
12 production budget whatever. This would work with a TV
13 station too, with videotape from all our schools and
14 local dramatic groups.
15 499 The little town of Cobourg has about
16 four musicals a year -- Carousel, Music Man, you name
17 it -- and that stuff should be going out to all the
18 other groups in Canada that can't get to Cobourg.
19 What's wrong with that?
20 500 What does CBC TV cost -- $900 million
21 a year or something crazy? And all the amateurs of the
22 country go begging, like me. I play organ recitals
23 almost for free. Have you ever heard of me? You have
24 today.
25 501 And you can do it regionally, too,
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1 like the man from Sudbury said. This kind of thing can
2 go a long way towards building national unity, provided
3 the French and English are not put on separate
4 networks.
5 502 I love French Canadian music, and you
6 can be sure it is just as good at the low level as it
7 is at the professional level.
8 503 Finally -- well, not quite finally --
9 there is no point in having the treasure we have unless
10 it is advertised. Every daily, weekly or monthly
11 newspaper or magazine in the country should carry CBC
12 radio program listings in full. It would only take a
13 few column inches.
14 504 How can you grow an audience if the
15 audience does not know you exist? And many don't. I
16 have dealt with high school students, 5,000 of them
17 over my career, and only maybe 500 knew of the CBC.
18 The rest learned about it maybe from me and my
19 colleagues.
20 505 The present advertising in The Globe
21 and Saturday Night is not detailed enough and certainly
22 seems too restrictive in the audience it reaches.
23 506 I must not leave out the Web site and
24 Victoria Wilcox's e-mails. They are absolutely
25 wonderful things that need to be kept up. Being able
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1 to get "Quirks and Quarks" off the web site a year
2 after you have heard the program so that you can
3 convince your 35-year-old child that yes, this was a
4 truly scientific report, not just your father's weak
5 memory in remembering something valuable.
6 507 That is wonderful stuff. Please keep
7 it up, along with all the other wonderful stuff that
8 comes to our homes from one of the only businesses I
9 know that is truly loved by many of its customers.
10 508 Additionally, whatever the CBC
11 presents, I believe radio or TV should be paid for,
12 purchased with full rights, so that when I call Lister
13 Sinclair to use one of his plays in my church for
14 Christmas Eve, we don't have to pay him; it has already
15 been paid.
16 509 Thanks. I really appreciate this
17 opportunity. I hope I didn't blow it.
18 510 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very
19 much, Mr. Scoffield.
20 511 Mr. Secretary.
21 1525
22 512 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair.
23 513 Mrs. Janna Ramsay Best, please.
24 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
25 514 MRS. JANNA RAMSAY BEST: My name is
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1 Janna Ramsay Best. I apologize for my voice; I have
2 just recovered from the flu and this may not turn out
3 very well.
4 515 Thank you for this opportunity to
5 express my views on the CBC.
6 516 I am here as an independent listener
7 and viewer. I do not represent any group. I feel
8 strongly that for our democracy to work, to enable
9 citizens to make informed choices, we must have
10 informed independent media coverage of everything that
11 goes on in the public domain in Canada.
12 517 We have seen the concentration of
13 ownership of newspapers in the hands of Conrad Black.
14 We have seen the increased funding from the public
15 purse of commercial radio and television, at the same
16 time as those private enterprises which the demise of
17 the CBC.
18 518 First, I have to explain that I am an
19 avid radio listener, like so many other people here,
20 and most of my remarks are concerned with CBC radio.
21 519 In 1993 the Liberal government
22 promised stable funding for the CBC. This did not
23 happen.
24 520 In 1996 I wrote to the Hon. Sheila
25 Copps about my concerns over the apparent dismantling
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1 of the CBC, and I quote:
2 "Madam Minister, I am writing to
3 tell you how upset I am at the
4 demolition of the CBC radio."
5 521 Remember, this was in 1996.
6 "When I first came to Canada
7 from Scotland in 1961, CBC radio
8 was one of the most important
9 means of learning about Canada
10 for a new young immigrant. Over
11 the last 35 years I have been a
12 faithful, grateful, critical but
13 never indifferent listener. I
14 cannot tell you how much I have
15 appreciated so many of the
16 hundreds of truly professional
17 broadcasters on CBC radio." (As
18 read)
19 522 In 1962 a friend had a similar
20 experience when she arrived in Saskatchewan from
21 Yugoslavia, and I quote her. She said:
22 "CBC was the most important
23 aspect in my life, providing a
24 cultural window into Canada, my
25 new country, and connecting me
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1 to the world, especially in the
2 isolation of the prairie
3 winter." (As read)
4 523 She has been a supporter of CBC radio
5 ever since.
6 524 Continuing to quote from my 1996
7 letter to Sheila Copps, because it is relevant --
8 although you might not think so:
9 "Our local radio station here in
10 Sudbury has been (inaudible) by
11 several people. CBC Northern
12 Ontario serves a huge
13 geographical area, but now the
14 links between the various
15 scattered municipalities are
16 being severed. What is
17 happening to the links and the
18 communication in northeastern
19 Ontario is the same as to Canada
20 as a whole. We are losing the
21 ability to learn about each
22 other and to keep in touch. It
23 has been said that the airwaves
24 of connecting CBC across Canada
25 were the 20th century equivalent
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1 to the railways of the 19th
2 Century, the ties that bind us
3 together." (As read)
4 525 Somebody else mentioned that too.
5 "Before you demolish the CBC,
6 Madam Minister..."
7 526 This is still my writing to Sheila
8 Copps:
9 "...what have you got to replace
10 it? The Internet? As I am sure
11 you know, the Internet is
12 without allegiance and without
13 boundaries, which is fine for
14 some purposes, but it does not
15 help to define our community.
16 These links are being cut, not
17 only between communities in
18 northern Ontario and Canada as a
19 whole; now the rest of the world
20 will not be able to receive
21 information from and about, as
22 the Prime Minister kept
23 reiterating, the best country in
24 the world." (As read)
25 527 That, I am glad to say, has changed
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1 since 1996.
2 "We, my husband and I, have
3 spent extensive periods abroad
4 when Radio Canada International
5 offered our only chance of
6 receiving news about Canada. In
7 the Caribbean, Italy, Israel,
8 Ireland, Belgium and Britain,
9 none of the newspapers, nor TV,
10 nor radio, ever covered events
11 in Canada. Radio Canada
12 International was our lifeline.
13 "Saturday Afternoon at the
14 Opera" has been a constant in
15 our family. My grown-up
16 children learned to love opera
17 from these broadcasts long
18 before they ever saw and heard
19 an opera live." (As read)
20 528 Here we don't get Radio Two, as
21 everybody is complaining, unless you have it on cable.
22 That is the only way we can hear it now.
23 529 Sheila Copps wrote back that far from
24 dismantling the CBC, she was ensuring that funding
25 would be continued. This has not happened. Funding
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1 has been cut yet again. Just because members of the
2 government do not like the CBC is not sufficient reason
3 for dismantling an organization that still could be of
4 great service to the unity of our country.
5 530 The Internet can be used to
6 disseminate information about Canada. My daughter, a
7 doctoral student at the University of Chicago, is very
8 grateful to be able to listen to CBC radio in real
9 audio on-line.
10 531 The Internet, however, is just a
11 conduit. It is the CBC that provides the content.
12 532 I find something quite hypocritical,
13 incidentally , about the Honourable Minister's
14 bleatings recently about threatened Canadian culture
15 when she speaks on behalf of Canadian magazines that
16 are fighting the Canadian editions of American
17 magazines that offer advertising space at reduced
18 rates.
19 533 Please don't misunderstand me. I
20 sympathize with the Canadian magazines' position. What
21 I am criticizing is that, in this case, the Government
22 of Canada seems to be defending Canadian culture while
23 in the case of the CBC the government is destroying the
24 CBC's role as another important purveyor, or possible
25 purveyor, of Canadian culture.
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1 534 I am not finished with my letters.
2 535 I wrote to Perrin Beatty in 1997 and
3 said to him:
4 "On the back of my prized CBC
5 northern Ontario shirt are the
6 names of communities, large and
7 small, in northeastern Ontario
8 which are linked to me and my
9 community of Sudbury by the
10 magic of radio: Atiwapiscat,
11 Britt, Chapleau, Tomogami and
12 Timmins, Mattawa, Mendemoya and
13 Moosenee; Foleyet, Fort Albany
14 and Fraserdale; and a dozen
15 more. To paraphrase Ian Brown's
16 comments on his final Sunday
17 morning in 1997: Though we are
18 all in different places, radio
19 at its best brings us all
20 together." (As read)
21 536 In that same year, 1997, the devoted
22 listeners of CBC Northern Ontario lost some of their
23 beast radio people to the cuts. With the departure of
24 Wolf Hess(ph), David Henley(ph), Bonita Heart(ph),
25 Peter Williams and others, who have not been replaced,
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1 this area has been done a great disservice.
2 537 The summer is always the time when we
3 listen to the radio at camp. For people who don't live
4 in this area, that means cottage.
5 538 It is the time of the best of -- that
6 is, repeats of -- "Morningside", "Double Exposure",
7 "Gabereau", "Ideas", "Sunday Morning". I always
8 appreciated hearing those repeats, because the original
9 programs were good and worth hearing again; or hearing
10 them for the first time, if I had missed them earlier.
11 539 In that summer of 1997, I listened to
12 the reprised programs with a real sense of loss, as
13 most of my favourite broadcasters disappeared from CBC
14 radio. Linda Cullen and Bob Robertson; Ian Brown;
15 Vicki Gabereau; Peter Gzowski; Clyde Gilmer(ph) -- the
16 late lamented Clyde Gilmer -- and many others.
17 540 Can poor Sheila Rogers, I asked in
18 1997, good as she really is, really be expected to fill
19 in for so many people?
20 541 It takes years to build up the high
21 standard that these professional broadcasters and their
22 talented producers maintained week after week, year
23 after year. Who will replace them, I asked? What will
24 be the future of Canadian public broadcasting?
25 542 Please note that that was all written
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1 in June of 1997. I did not receive a reply.
2 543 Now, in March 1999, almost two years
3 later, we have seen the future. Are the places on my
4 CBC shirt, a quaint reminder of a time when places were
5 once joined together by radio, just as a century ago
6 places were joined by the railway, just like all those
7 names carved around the walls of the centra concourse
8 of Union Station in Toronto.
9 544 Craig Mackie(ph) and the producers
10 and broadcasters at CBC Northern Ontario radio are
11 soldiering on as best they can. Marcus Schwabie(ph)
12 and "The Morning North" is good at encouraging people
13 to phone in from the whole region to give their views
14 of events in the area, or news and weather conditions,
15 and any other item that would be of interest or benefit
16 to the community at large.
17 545 In the afternoon Barry Mercer gives
18 publicity to events going on in the area, and he
19 interviews people of interest. But gone are the days
20 when concerts of the Sudbury Symphony or a choir in
21 North Bay, or a pow-pow in Manitoulin Island would be
22 recorded and then broadcast on the radio.
23 546 The cuts in programming that I so
24 bewailed in June 1997 have turned out to be even worse
25 than I anticipated. Repeats of programs are no longer
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1 "The Best Of"; they are what fill up hours of air time
2 on Radio One or Two.
3 547 For example, I heard Stuart MacLean
4 and "The Vinyl Cafe", which I enjoy, on Radio One one
5 day and on Radio Two the next.
6 548 In addition to all these repeats,
7 poor Bill Richardson, a most professional broadcaster,
8 has been given the task of hosting a program which
9 consists of repeats.
10 549 Local, regional and national CBC
11 radio must be given the resources to fulfil the mandate
12 to promote understanding and knowledge of Canada by
13 Canadians.
14 550 In our house we do not watch much
15 television, but we do watch CBC Newsworld, because we
16 have cable, and RDI on a regular basis. I think the
17 news services partially fills a need for Canadian
18 coverage of current events, both at home and abroad.
19 However, resources are limited and there are very few
20 foreign correspondents.
21 551 Ironically, I keep seeing these ads
22 on TVO for the Globe and Mail, emphasizing how many
23 foreign correspondents they have.
24 552 CBC television, I think, should be
25 given the chance to fulfil its mandate to unite
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1 Canadians by telling every kind of Canadian story. The
2 type of programming could be like a combination of
3 perhaps TVO and PBS and specialty channels, such as The
4 History Channel, plus another element that must
5 experience a vision of what Canada is.
6 553 I think it should be the specialty
7 channel for Canada, not just for "Hockey Night in
8 Canada" and "Wind at My Back", but also about industry
9 and commerce, mining and fishing, for all the arts,
10 showing plays and films, including the thousands of
11 National Film Board films that are so difficult to find
12 elsewhere these days.
13 554 And opera. We have all these
14 wonderful young singers, like Ben Hepner(ph), all over
15 the world. And pop concerts of all kinds from all
16 parts of the country. We are all happy that Céline
17 Dion and Alanis Morrissette and Shania Twain have done
18 so well in the USA, and they, like Don Messer and Anne
19 Murray and Rita MacNeil before them, are all part of
20 the puzzle that is Canada.
21 555 TV Canada, as I imagine it, would
22 also show Canadians from coast to coast to coast how
23 people live in different parts of the country, what the
24 country itself looks like, its geography, its history;
25 and it should be unique, independent, fair and
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1 impartial, not an arm of government, and not trying to
2 compete with the commercial networks.
3 556 The commercial networks have
4 different priorities. They want to make money. What I
5 perceive as CBC's role is to make and keep a country:
6 Canada.
7 557 Thank you.
8 558 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very
9 much, Mrs. Best. Thank you for being here, especially
10 when you are not feeling that well. We really
11 appreciate it.
12 559 Mr. Secretary.
13 1540
14 560 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair.
15 561 Mr. Steve Dodson, please.
16 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
17 562 MR. DODSON: Thank you. My name is
18 Steve Dodson. I am a member of the CBC audience who
19 normally likes to lurk out there in the vacuum land of
20 Alan McPhie and not speaking out at public policy
21 consultations. I am not politically active,
22 financially sophisticated, or media-wise.
23 563 I am here because I feel people like
24 me must speak now, as people have been wonderfully
25 speaking this afternoon, or be prepared to live in the
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1 ringing silence of a friendly voice gone mute. I am
2 determined in the next few minutes to make up for my
3 past failures to speak out, so that I don't end up
4 echoing Joni Mitchell's wonderful Canadian lyrics:
5 "Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what
6 you got till its gone."
7 564 I am an American, or should I say I
8 was an American. Like Janna Best, I come from another
9 country. I was a graduate of an Indiana primary school
10 when I arrived with my family in Aylmer, Quebec. I was
11 eager to learn about my new surroundings, and I quickly
12 became a fan of CBO Radio and CBOT television from
13 Ottawa.
14 565 I remember being impressed, as a
15 grade 9 student, by the originality of Percy Saltzman,
16 the weatherman from Toronto, and "Front Page
17 Challenge".
18 566 More recently, I have been privileged
19 to tune in to the story of the "Avro Aero", "Emily of
20 New Moon", "Royal Canadian Air Farce", and many others;
21 the national news on "Magazine", as well as numerous
22 Newsworld documentaries deliver an in-depth
23 understanding of the world and events all over the
24 world that is fascinating and not elsewhere.
25 567 But I am not here to say more about
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1 CBC television, because it is the radio side of CBC
2 that has entered into the fabric of my life, woven into
3 my lifestyle. The excellence and essential vibrancy of
4 CBC radio need to be specifically flagged, pointed out
5 and honoured. All too often, when people talk about
6 the CBC in a policy sense, they are talking about TV
7 first and foremost, with radio thrown in as an
8 afterthought.
9 568 CBC radio is the most cost-effective
10 way to assert national identity and let Canadians
11 everywhere know each other. It is the best way for
12 Canadians everywhere in the world to stay in touch with
13 each other, to hear each other's stories.
14 569 In my early years in my new country I
15 became sensitized to something special in the Canadian
16 character through CBC radio. There was a Canadian
17 voice which possessed qualities which I had not heard
18 before.
19 570 When I became a Canadian citizen, I
20 was living up in John Lindsay's CBKB territory in
21 Timmins. And as John mentioned, CBC radio was carried
22 for two hours in the evening on that station. But that
23 was long enough to bring the whole world to me through
24 the unique looking glass of a brand new kind of radio
25 called "As it Happens".
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1 571 When we got our own northern Ontario
2 CBC radio station right here in Sudbury, serving
3 northeastern Ontario, I was a high school physics
4 teacher in North Bay. Two years later my life was
5 changed by this new local service, when I learned about
6 something called the Sudbury Science Centre Project.
7 As a result of tuning in and being informed, I became a
8 member of the study team that developed what has become
9 Science North, and I soon moved to Sudbury to become a
10 staff member.
11 572 This is only one example of many
12 important developments that I became aware of, and
13 stayed in tune with, by tuning into CBC radio.
14 Regional CBC radio is so effective it is life changing.
15 573 My life has changed again. Now I am
16 an entrepreneur, and CBC radio is a companion, from
17 rising in the early morning to late evening. I own a
18 bunch of radios, and nobody is going to be surprised
19 that they are all tuned to CBC. It doesn't matter if
20 the knobs fall right off of them.
21 574 When I am driving through northern
22 Ontario, I do know where and when to change the
23 frequency so I don't miss the conversation. And
24 sometimes when I am on an errand, I have to postpone
25 going into the store or meeting, or whatever, waiting
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1 in the parking lot for a particularly interesting
2 conversation or report to end.
3 575 CBC radio stimulates me when I need
4 stimulating and relaxes me when I need relaxing. It
5 entertains, challenges and, as so many have mentioned
6 today, it expands horizons.
7 576 Commercial radio stations, with their
8 play lists from Toronto and the aggravating staccato of
9 commercial messages, are just not an option for me.
10 Big city Canadians may not be aware what a vital link
11 CBC represents to northerners, although they certainly
12 are if they heard earlier presenters today.
13 577 It is often said that the CBC radio
14 audience is aging. In the words of the young, duh!
15 Have the utterers not heard of the news? The whole
16 population is aging!
17 --- Laughter / Rires
18 578 Perhaps CBC listener demographics are
19 just keeping up with the times. Besides, in my house,
20 the second-best listener is my teenage son, even though
21 every other station in the town caters to youthful
22 tastes. This is something I discovered; I did not
23 instigate -- that is, my son being a CBC fan.
24 579 I became aware of the dimensions of
25 this country and the richness of its cultural diversity
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1 through CBC radio more than by any other way. I have
2 met myriads of individuals from every part of Canada,
3 becoming of their lives, circumstances and concerns. I
4 have become aware of artists, writers and performers
5 who might have remained unknown to me until they
6 enriched me through the medium of CBC radio.
7 580 That would even include writers and
8 contenders for the Governor General's literary prize
9 and native performers, such as Susan Aglukark,
10 Cashtin(ph), Robbie Robertson, and many others.
11 581 There is much more than information
12 and music. There is drama and comedy. There is the
13 opportunity to look at life through someone else's
14 eyes, to walk in shoes very different from our own.
15 582 For example, while I was putting my
16 thoughts down on paper preparing to come here, there
17 was in the background on CBC radio a rich, articulate
18 and extremely perceptive portrayal of the world
19 experienced by a very gifted person who happened to be
20 an autistic adult. Without CBC radio, I would not have
21 been remotely aware that that world existed and would
22 not have entered into that person's world for sure. My
23 own world would have been a little bit smaller than it
24 now is.
25 583 The most average of Canadians, near
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1 and far, have frequently become extraordinary when we
2 saw them through the eyes of great CBC radio
3 interviewers. Great interviewers such as Peter Gzowski
4 and Vicki Gabereau did it best. I am also, as Janna
5 was, saddened that they have moved on. I suspect it
6 was because they saw support for what they were doing
7 drying up because of financial pressures.
8 584 Vicki Gabereau's protege, Bill
9 Richardson, is doing a wonderful job with the mandate
10 that he has. I believe that he has absorbed a lot of
11 Vicki's skill and could do the in-depth interviews if
12 he were given the chance to do more than collect re-
13 runs.
14 585 This is the best public radio in the
15 world. I think CBC's mandate should be to do what CBC
16 radio has been doing so well. Not being sophisticated
17 in matters of public policy and finance, I am going to
18 find it easier to comment on mandate by telling a
19 simple fable in which Canada is represented by a little
20 farm town, and the idea of mandate is represented by
21 the word chore.
22 586 You will easily understand what else
23 is represented in this fable.
24 587 Charlie B. Sear ran the best family
25 farm in town, and folks came from all around to see how
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1 his farm prospered and how he regularly introduced
2 successful new crops. He always brought the most
3 nutritious produce to market, and his land and home
4 were pleasant to the eye. Charles relied on his two
5 sons, Ron and Tom, in the running of the farm. Young
6 Tom was stout, strong and tall. His older brother Ron
7 was lean, wiry and intense. When people came to visit
8 Charlie, they always noticed Tom because he had a
9 certain visual presence. As visitors chatted with
10 Charlie and Tom, the opinion spread through the town
11 that the success of the Sear farm was mostly due to big
12 Tom. People didn't notice the lean figure of Ron out
13 in the fields or barn, toiling until the last chore was
14 done.
15 588 The truth was that the chores got
16 done and the farm thrived because Ron did the chores of
17 two or three workers. But trouble arrived at the farm
18 when simultaneously the price of the main crop dropped
19 and the government support payments dwindled. Life
20 became harder. Charlie spoke to his two sons like
21 this: "Well, sons, we have less of everything now and
22 I am going to have to put less food on the table for
23 both of you. You'll both have to tighten your belts,
24 and I would like to see you both tighten your belts two
25 notches each year."
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1 589 Life was not too hard for Tom. He
2 had quite considerable girth and he could tighten his
3 belt without it showing too much. When the food was
4 put on the table, he still got a lot more than thin old
5 Ron. In fact, the town people remarked that Tom's
6 weight loss made him look more fit. But Ron was
7 getting alarmingly thin.
8 590 Charlie wondered why the chores were
9 getting done more slowly than in the past. He would
10 look out and see Ron doing the same thing that he was
11 doing the last time he looked out. Both sons were
12 working the same hours as before, and Ron was still
13 working until late in the evening. But then a visitor
14 saw that although Ron still had a look of determination
15 on his face, he was working slower and slower and able
16 to lift less and less. He was too lean to be able to
17 do all the chores he was eager to do.
18 591 Now Charlie was a fair and practical
19 man. He saw that his response to difficult times was
20 making his farm unnecessarily inefficient. The chores
21 were no longer getting done. What is happening to the
22 mandate?
23 592 Perhaps the policy of equal belt
24 tightening should be reconsidered. Somehow Charlie
25 would have to assure that the food got to where it
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1 would do the most good so that more chores would get
2 done. He would have to make sure that the son who did
3 his chores so well all his life would get some beef
4 back on his bones.
5 593 I chose the name Ron and Tom simply
6 because of the letters. Ron points to one medium and
7 Tom points to another medium employed by CBC in
8 fulfilling its mandate.
9 594 If there is amoral to this story, it
10 is: Please make sure that the high cost of television
11 does not prevent CBC radio from doing even more of what
12 it has done so well for so long. In making sure that
13 this does not happen, CBC will be taking a giant leap
14 towards fulfilling its mandate.
15 595 Thank you.
16 --- Applause / Applaudissements
17 596 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very
18 much, Mr. Dodson.
19 597 As we go into our next participants,
20 just a gentle reminder about our ten minutes, if we can
21 hold to that.
22 598 Thank you.
23 1555
24 599 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair.
25 600 Mr. Jean and Pamela Charron, please.
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1 PRESENTATION /PRÉSENTATION
2 601 MRS. CHARRON: Thank you.
3 602 Good afternoon. I have a very stuff
4 proper introduction here, but I am going to digress
5 from it.
6 603 This is turning out to be fun.
7 604 THE CHAIRPERSON: We are very glad to
8 hear that.
9 605 MRS. CHARRON: As I listen to these
10 eloquent presentations, I feel that I have rather a
11 hard act to follow. There is a sense of community that
12 I feel growing in the room. Most of us are here
13 because we love the CBC. I think that needs to be
14 underlined.
15 606 We are going to sound like a broken
16 record. We are here about CBC Radio Two.
17 607 For the purposes of this
18 presentation, we represent a significant percentage of
19 the Upper Ottawa Valley population who want the CBC to
20 provide Radio Two and La Chaîne culturelle service to
21 the area.
22 608 At present, CBC Radio Two and La
23 Chaîne culturelle signals start fading somewhere
24 between Pembroke and Petawawa as you move northwest on
25 Highway 17. Even in Pembroke, with a population of
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1 14,500, the reception is spotty. Sometimes, depending
2 on the meteorological conditions, there is fair
3 reception in Deep River.
4 609 The result of this is that most
5 people living in North Renfrew County, and for that
6 matter throughout northeastern Ontario, cannot receive
7 CBC Radio Two or La Chaîne, and we will demonstrate
8 that these programs would find a good audience.
9 610 North Renfrew County supports a
10 lively cultural life centred in the Pembroke-Petawawa
11 areas and the town of Deep River. In the material I
12 will table, we would draw your attention to the
13 performing arts section of the Valley Arts Council
14 Directory. It lists a dozen cultural organizations,
15 and I would add to that the Deep River Choral Group,
16 Cantandos(ph) Chamber Choir, and the Deep River Theatre
17 Operating Group, which brings in recitalists such as
18 the Members of Piano Six. They are six world-renowned
19 Canadian concert pianists committed to touring small
20 centres every year.
21 611 Deep River was even the scene of a
22 world premier recently when the orchestra played a
23 commissioned work by an Ottawa composer, Scott
24 Tresham(ph).
25 612 The schools support music education
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1 to the best of their ability. One of the last
2 elementary school instrumental music programs was cut
3 only last year. There are student theatre and music
4 productions that draw large audiences. This area sends
5 many students on to universities and college music
6 programs.
7 613 Our impression, arriving in the area
8 after a lifetime in Ottawa with our children going
9 through a large metropolitan school system, is that the
10 Upper Ottawa Valley produces a higher proportion of
11 career musicians than the city does. These young
12 people need to be able to listen to the material they
13 are learning and fit it into its artistic context.
14 614 Excluding Pembroke, the population of
15 the area is about 15,000 by the 1996 Census. Our
16 package contains a list of 39 names of individuals who
17 contacted us to express their support after we sent a
18 letter to the local weeks, the North Renfrew Times,
19 which has a circulation of about 2,400. We offered to
20 attend these hearings on their behalf.
21 615 Even the positioning of our letter,
22 which was placed right underneath the editorial in the
23 newspaper, I think, indicates a broad level of
24 community support, because the newspaper belongs to the
25 community association.
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1 616 In addition, our MPP Shawn Conway
2 sent a letter of support on his own initiative. He
3 contacted us. And a number of people who called or
4 e-mailed us said they have previously written to the
5 CBC about the service.
6 617 The demand is there, and we think CBC
7 should make completion of the stereo radio service a
8 priority.
9 618 CBC already has good technical
10 infrastructure in the area. It is likely on a repeater
11 would be required on an existing tower. That would get
12 it through the Upper Ottawa Valley. It would not of
13 course speak for northeastern Ontario.
14 619 Why should we get this service? Why
15 now? How does this relate to the CBC's mandate?
16 620 The Chair of the CBC, Guylaine
17 Saucier, had a piece in The Globe and Mail on Tuesday,
18 March the 9th. She quotes the mandate of the CBC as
19 follows:
20 "...to nurture, promote and
21 spread the values that define
22 the Canadian identity." (As
23 read)
24 621 In the Upper Ottawa Valley we do not
25 now have access to the riches of Canada's musical life,
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1 the live performances in concert halls across the land,
2 the "Texaco Saturday Afternoon at the Opera"
3 broadcasts, Summer Festival broadcasts from Lanaudière
4 and elsewhere on La Chaîne; Jergen Goth's(ph)
5 "Christmas Hit List"; and there is so much more.
6 622 As a little digression here, years
7 ago when I was living in Ottawa, somewhere around 1992,
8 one Sunday morning on "Choral Concert" I listened to
9 Howard Dick's tapes from a choral festival in Powell
10 River, B.C. called a Katowmu(ph). It's a Kostalish(ph)
11 word. From that, the choir that I then belonged to in
12 Ottawa in 1996 attended and won its class in that
13 festival.
14 623 The choirs I sing in in Deep River
15 don't even know that exists, because they don't have
16 access to CBC Two.
17 624 Where else can we hear other Canadian
18 composers with a discussion of their work and their
19 influences? Where else can we listen to other choirs
20 in concert and learn from them?
21 625 Music professionals, teachers,
22 conductors, performers, need to be able to measure and
23 stretch themselves against the yardstick of other
24 interpretations of their repertoire. We need the input
25 from interview and analysis programs like Eric
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1 Friesen's and Rick Philip's. Rick Philips is repeated
2 on CBC One, but of course it is not in stereo.
3 626 On the "Open Line Radio Program" with
4 Perrin Beatty and CBC senior management in February
5 several calls came in from different parts of the
6 country about the lack of CBC Two. Mr. Beatty
7 indicated that 75 per cent of the country was covered.
8 That would be the population, obviously, not the
9 territory. He said they are working on it; that it is
10 a matter of budget.
11 627 We have great sympathy for the
12 constraints upon the CBC in these past years. They
13 have done so well under the circumstances. However, we
14 urge CBC to finish what it started before pouring scare
15 resources into new ventures. Yes, Internet and other
16 new media will be increasingly important; but for now,
17 they serve a tiny fraction of the population. The
18 market for CBC Two and La Chaîne exists now and it is
19 more than eager.
20 628 Mr. Beatty is quoted on the subject
21 of new ventures in an article in The Globe and Mail
22 this past Saturday and he says -- and I am paraphrasing
23 a little bit: You cannot sit on a couple of channels
24 that get fragmented by an explosion of other
25 alternatives and still do your job of reaching Canadian
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1 audiences.
2 629 He is referring to television, but we
3 submit that the same applies to radio. CBC Two and La
4 Chaîne are the alternatives to commercial and talk
5 radio, and CBC needs to reach the whole Canadian
6 population with those signals.
7 630 Thank you for your time and
8 attention.
9 --- Applause / Applaudissements
10 631 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very
11 much, Mrs. Charron.
12 632 We have our next participant.
13 1604
14 633 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair.
15 634 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mrs. Charron, is
16 your presentation complete?
17 635 MRS. CHARRON: Yes, it is.
18 636 MR. LAHAY: Patricia Hatala, please.
19 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
20 637 MS HATALA: I would like to thank the
21 CRTC for affording me this opportunity to make this
22 presentation.
23 638 Ladies an gentleman, my name is
24 Patricia Hatala. I come here today as a mother and a
25 nurturer of first my own children, now grown, and now
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1 my grandchildren. The CBC for the most part, it seems,
2 has filled a role which in my view assists its
3 listeners in many ways to appreciate and learn much
4 about Canada and its people through programs such as
5 "Canadian Achievers" and by covering events surrounding
6 geography, the arts, literature, music, to name a few.
7 639 CBC has several programs wherein the
8 public at large have the opportunity to have direct
9 input, as in "Cross Canada Check-up", "As it Happens",
10 "Talk Back Line", and other programs which invite talk-
11 back input. This provides a good opportunity for the
12 public to participate in the public taxpayer funded
13 corporation.
14 640 This public broadcast facility also
15 keeps Canadians up to speed with what is occurring in
16 other parts of our vast and wonderful country; or to
17 put it another way, keeps Canadians in touch with
18 Canadians. This is good and by all means should
19 continue.
20 641 When I informed my husband when I was
21 coming here, he said would you please include this
22 comment for me. So this is from him.
23 642 My husband, who watches much
24 television, asks that I include the following
25 observation in my presentation, and I quote:
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1 "When I watch an English movie
2 on the French channel, the
3 translation is done in a voice
4 overlay. When I watch a French
5 movie on the English channel,
6 more often than not the
7 translation is done by means of
8 English subtitles." (As read)
9 643 Point taken.
10 644 A positive, respectful moral
11 implication seemed to be discernible in CBC programming
12 in former years. I do believe that these qualities
13 which aided in setting CBC apart from other
14 broadcasters and was so evident then is waning far too
15 quickly for my liking.
16 645 Fifteen or 20 years ago, I could turn
17 on the radio to CBC in the morning and leave it on all
18 day without concern as to whether children were
19 listening or not. At present, not only do I often hear
20 programming that I would prefer children to not hear,
21 but programming which I myself find offensive and/or
22 demeaning, such as the down downbeat, under-achieving
23 attitude portrayed in some of the episodes of the soap
24 opera-like presentation of "Roomers and Boarders".
25 646 Recently I had occasion to listen to
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1 the interview of an author who had written a book, the
2 substance of which was a true story about a prisoner
3 who had escaped custody on several occasions and was
4 still at large. The manner in which the interview was
5 conducted seemed to give the listener the impression
6 that this prisoner was some kind of hero.
7 647 As recently as last Sunday afternoon,
8 I heard a program on CBC radio with a dialogue which
9 included death threats, vulgar innuendos, accompanied
10 by gunshot sounds. Not good family afternoon
11 entertainment, in my view.
12 648 Since the nature of the family is the
13 basic unit of society, one might expect the national
14 public broadcaster to carefully consider this unit when
15 setting its format and programming. Especially of
16 late, it seems, that an anti-traditional family, anti
17 pro-life bias has been reflected in some ways the CBC
18 programming is documented and/or presented. Within the
19 last six months I have heard interviews during which
20 comments about the traditional family were repeatedly
21 uttered in a demeaning manner, as though anyone in this
22 day and age who believes in traditional family is less
23 than intelligent.
24 649 When pro-lifers are accused of
25 violence, even though there is no proof of the
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1 violence, CBC has carried reports of the events; and
2 instead of interviewing the pro-lifers on the matter,
3 has interviewed people like Henry Morgentaler instead.
4 650 Content such as these previous two
5 items, coupled with programs on both radio and
6 television containing violence and programs such as
7 "The Simpsons", which uses less than polite language
8 and portrays disrespectful attitudes in family
9 settings, do little to foster positive personal growth.
10 651 Commercials, which are becoming more
11 and more sexually suggestive blue ice also do little to
12 foster positive personal growth.
13 652 As a result of the aforementioned
14 content, one may be left to constantly run back and
15 forth to the television or radio to accomplish the
16 on/off home style censoring one may require if one
17 chooses to have positive content coming into their home
18 on a continuing basis. The end result of course is
19 that the radio or television ends up being turned off
20 and staying off, with the result that good programming
21 is missed entirely.
22 653 It would be most helpful and
23 encouraging if our national broadcaster, CBC, carried
24 up-beat programming that families could enjoy together
25 on an ongoing basis. I do hope that it is an aim of
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1 our public broadcaster to more consistently carry
2 programming which serves to promote, peace, harmony and
3 positive growth of Canadians as individuals and in
4 communities.
5 654 I again thank you for the opportunity
6 to present my views.
7 655 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much
8 for being with us, Ms Hatala.
9 656 We will now proceed with the next
10 group of participants.
11 657 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair.
12 658 Just one comment. We had two "no
13 shows" in the second group: Andrew Atkins and Marjorie
14 Reynolds. If these two speakers are here, would you
15 let yourselves be known to the Commission, please.
16 --- Pause / Pause
17 659 MR. LAHAY: No response.
18 660 The next group please come to the
19 table: Marjorie Shaw; Alex MacGregor; Mark Laing; and
20 Edith MacDonald.
21 661 Please come forward.
22 662 Would the first presenter please
23 state his name for the record. Thank you.
24 --- Pause / Pause
25 663 MR. LAHAY: Marjorie Shaw, if you are
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1 in the room, would you please come up as our first
2 presenter.
3 1611
4 664 Alex MacGregor.
5 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
6 665 MR. MacGREGOR: Hi. My name is Alex
7 MacGregor from Sudbury; un-Toronto, un-feminist,
8 un-politically correct, un-AIDS victim, un-Liberal,
9 un-native, un-socialist, un-sector, un-Progressive, and
10 un-represented on CBC.
11 666 That is why, among other reasons, I
12 am critical of the CBC and why I am of two minds as to
13 whether the licence of the CBC should be renewed. It
14 is not clear from your Public Notice CRTC 1998-134
15 whether participants in this forum are to discuss
16 licence renewal. Therefore, I will confine myself to
17 answering the questions outlined in 3 of CRTC 1998-134.
18 667 How well does the CBC fulfil its role
19 s the national broadcaster? Very badly. The CBC is a
20 vehicle for the conventional wisdom of the Toronto
21 chattering classes. In the voice of Koran(ph) in the
22 Toronto Sun, the CBC is inhabited by people that go to
23 the same parties, dress the same way and share the same
24 opinions, and have very comfortable incomes.
25 668 That may be fine. But the CBC, as a
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1 national broadcaster, ought to be reflecting the views
2 of all Canadians and providing a forum for political,
3 philosophical and geographical diversity of this
4 country. I submit to you that this is not what the CBC
5 is doing.
6 669 Let me remind you that the CBC was a
7 creation of the Conservative government of the day to
8 provide an alternative to the United States
9 commercialism and to keep broadcasting in the hands of
10 all Canadians: Liberals, Socialists, Conservatives,
11 religious, non-religious, Natives, Aboriginals,
12 immigrants, all ethnic groups, including WASPS, Jews,
13 Africans, Asians and all else in between.
14 670 The church is tying itself in knots
15 over exclusive and inclusive language. The CBC ought
16 to concern itself with including all views and all
17 people. In other words, the CBC ought to get back to
18 its original mandate from R. B. Bennett and the
19 Conservatives of the time and serve all the people, not
20 only those with a narrow, philosophical and political
21 bent.
22 671 The CBC serves this region very
23 badly. I will not reiterate my charges of extreme
24 political bias against CBC Sudbury, but rather point
25 out that the CBC services about 10 per cent of the
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1 listening audience. That is appalling. The 90 per
2 cent of the people in Sudbury who do not listen to CBC
3 radio are voting with their ears and with their on/off
4 switch. The 90 per cent of people are living lives of
5 greater intelligence, greater love and greater
6 compassion than the CBC's super executives drawing
7 salaries in six figures.
8 672 The people of Sudbury do not want the
9 fare served by the CBC. Why? I submit it is because
10 the CBC agenda bears no relation to the lives of people
11 here. I have railed on publicly and privately and in
12 print about the CBC bias against Mr. Harris. It is
13 surely possible to be a Mike Harris Conservative and
14 not be in favour of letting babies starve in the
15 street.
16 673 For example, the CBC ran a contest,
17 "My Greatest Day", and among the winners was a lady who
18 waited for the great day when Mike Harris was defeated.
19 In other words, the original vision of the CBC has been
20 converted to a vision where Mike Harris is the icon
21 against progress and the advancement of human kind.
22 674 Rousseau wrote: Mankind will never
23 be truly free until the last priest is garrotted with
24 the entrails of the last aristocrats. The CBC variant
25 of that is: Ontario will never be truly free until
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1 Ernie Eaves(ph) is clubbed to death by Mike Harris'
2 last gold club.
3 675 It is truly painful to be a Mike
4 Harris supporter listening to the CBC. The CBC is not
5 The Toronto Star. The Toronto Star, Liberal as it is,
6 proclaims its bias in its editorial page. Its news is
7 more or less balanced. Its letters to the editors page
8 is more or less open to dissent. The CBC, I submit, is
9 not open to dissent.
10 676 The CBC ought, not should, to provide
11 programming different from that provided by other
12 broadcasters. On holiday in Florida I was subjected to
13 private broadcasting ad nauseam. Even in the USA there
14 is the need for public radio. The clue here is public.
15 The clue here is balance and variety. The clue here is
16 to make the CBC attractive to the 90 per cent who do
17 not listen to it.
18 677 What is so difficult about that.
19 Even 50 per cent of listening audience is not too high
20 a figure for CBC Sudbury to attain.
21 678 There is a special role that the CBC
22 should play in the presentation of Canadian
23 programming. The "Ideas" series by Lister Sinclair is
24 an example of this. But surely it is possible to be
25 informative and intelligent and still appeal to a wider
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1 audience.
2 679 Let me introduce you, Madam Chair and
3 the CBC, to Sudbury. The Sudbury I know and love is a
4 world inhabited by entrepreneurs opening restaurants,
5 boutiques, designing clothes; it is a world of people
6 and heavy equipment, marketing throughout the world.
7 It is a well-travelled world, where young Sudburians
8 help miners in Indonesia, Guatemala and Honduras. They
9 don't want handouts from the government. Rather, they
10 want tax cuts to continue to create wealth and expand
11 their businesses.
12 680 Most people in Sudbury attend weekly
13 church, temple or mosque and then go to sports events.
14 That Sudbury, I submit, is not on CBC. The CBC Sudbury
15 is union bosses demanding more and more from the public
16 purse. They are on CBC. Yes, they too are a voice in
17 Sudbury, but not the only voice. Both should be
18 present on the corporation.
19 681 They talk and argue on Durham Street,
20 but they are not dialoguing on CBC. Don't please
21 insult my intelligence by suggesting that this is
22 because of budget cuts and cutbacks. It is a matter of
23 will and direction by the CBC management and
24 journalists. The CBC must therefore be reformed.
25 682 Before I came here, I interviewed a
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1 lone picketer outside the CBC. What is going on in the
2 corporation? He told me he was receiving $200 a week
3 strike pay. Not a lot and the groceries in the freezer
4 were running low. Some management personnel were
5 getting $100,000 and up. Yet that was not what was
6 bothering the striker. What was bothering him was a
7 lack of direction from the top.
8 683 His union had endured layoffs and
9 budget cuts and he had not had a meaningful raise since
10 1984. Again, that is not why he was really out on
11 strike. He was out on strike because of alack of
12 direction and accountability. He was angry at the
13 waste at the top. He had seen three remote control
14 systems put in and two were ripped out almost as soon
15 as they were installed.
16 684 A lonely striker in Sudbury earning
17 about $40,000 and warming his hands before a brazier.
18 A rich CBC executive earning more than $100,000 warming
19 his Napoleon brandy before a coterie of his fellows
20 Rosedalites is simply not in touch with the striker.
21 The gap between the striker and the executive is wider
22 than that between the poor of Paris and the aristocrats
23 before the revolution.
24 685 This may reflect contemporary Canada.
25 It does not reflect what the CBC was designed to be.
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1 Even ni the age of Internet, the CBC's original vision
2 is still valid. I would like to see a tough watchdog
3 organization for the CBC demanding financial
4 accountability. But more importantly, returning the
5 CBC to its original mandate of serving all Canadians
6 and not preaching to us what we should think. Life is
7 too short for us to indulge in CBC political
8 correctness in place of thought.
9 686 Thank you for permitting this
10 presentation.
11 --- Applause / Applaudissements
12 687 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr.
13 MacGregor.
14 688 As I noted in my opening remarks, in
15 fact the hearing is on in Hull on May 25th, and you are
16 invited to partake in that hearing as well.
17 689 Mr. Secretary.
18 1620
19 690 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair.
20 691 Mark Laing.
21 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
22 692 MR. LAING: Good afternoon,
23 Commissioners. I have taken a day off work and driven
24 here from North Bay today because I care very deeply
25 about the CBC.
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1 693 With two small exceptions, I will be
2 restricting my remarks to CBC radio.
3 694 I have been a strong supporter of and
4 a listener to CBC radio all of my adult life. I
5 specify "adult", because as a teenager in Sudbury in
6 the mid-1960s we had no CBC radio. We had two choices,
7 both AM: country and rock and roll.
8 695 Soon after, we got our first FM
9 station, which played elevator music.
10 696 The first time I ever heard CBC radio
11 was when I moved to Toronto in the early 1970s.
12 Suddenly what an embarrassment of riches opened to me,
13 the likes of Peter Gzowski and Lister Sinclair on the
14 one hand, the beautiful music of Margaret Potu(ph) and
15 dear old Bob Kerr on the other hand or station. Here
16 was a whole new world of words and music and education
17 for the taking, and I took it. I still am, in fact,
18 and will until the day I die.
19 697 A few years after I went south,
20 northeastern Ontario finally did get CBC One, which I
21 was pleased to discover when I returned to the north in
22 1988. But there was something missing. About four or
23 five years ago I had the opportunity to ask the local
24 station manager about the possibility of getting CBC
25 Two in this part of the province. It was then that I
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1 learned that Thunder Bay had CBC One and Two, but the
2 money ran out before it could be extended to this area.
3 And that seemed to be the end of the story.
4 698 I was only too painfully aware of the
5 devastation wrought on the CBC radio in the ensuing
6 years, as favourite on-air personalities and features
7 disappeared and interviews and documentaries were
8 increasingly repeated.
9 699 It became obvious that these good
10 people were operating on a shoestring, and despite
11 their best efforts to hide it, it showed.
12 700 Now we have this new proposal to
13 create at a CBC Three aimed at a younger audience.
14 This would be a mistake for at leat three reasons. It
15 would be an injustice and in insult to this area for
16 the CBC to pour millions of dollars into a new service
17 before ensuring that the 400,000 taxpayers of
18 northeastern Ontario were covered by CBC Two. This
19 could be done for a tiny fraction of the cost of the
20 new network. The hardware and personnel are largely
21 already in place. All we need is a straight repeater
22 feed from Toronto.
23 701 This would also be a good opportunity
24 to upgrade our CBC One signal from mono to stereo.
25 702 Two, there is no pressing need for
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1 the CBC to serve an audience whose needs are already
2 being addressed by the private sector. And perhaps
3 most importantly, without a large infusion of new
4 money, any such venture would only further dilute the
5 quality of the existing service.
6 703 As you may be aware, the North Bay
7 symphony orchestra recently suspended operations
8 because of a lack of public support. I firmly believe
9 that the lack of CBC Two was a contributing factor in
10 this demise. How can you build an audience for good
11 music if the public does not have an opportunity to
12 expose themselves to that music?
13 704 In closing, I would like to make the
14 following points. It is imperative that the CBC
15 achieve its independence from the government of the
16 day. The head of the corporation must be chosen
17 internally and not by the Prime Minister's office.
18 705 Two, with the help of our so-called
19 ally, the Minister of Heritage, a significant portion
20 of the budget cutbacks of recent years must be restored
21 to radio at least.
22 706 Three, the CBC already distributes
23 "As it Happens" to many national public radio stations
24 in America. Could not national public radio give us
25 some of their very best programs in return? I for one
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1 would not mind hearing Garrison Carter's(ph) "Prairie
2 Home Companion" once a week.
3 707 That may seem strange, but remember
4 overnight is all foreign, and it seems it would be a
5 better alternative having to listen to a five-part
6 series on "Ideas" being repeated only a year and a half
7 after it was first broadcast.
8 708 Finally, two points about TV.
9 709 The national news must not be
10 commercialized. Such interruptions are jarring and
11 totally inappropriate. And shows such as Rita
12 MacNeil's and Ralph Benmurgy's(ph) serve an important
13 role as a showcase of Canadian musical talent. Such
14 exposure is critical if regional talent are to become
15 national starts. There is no such showcase on CBC
16 television now.
17 710 There is no more cost-effective way
18 of improving the quality of life in northeastern
19 Ontario than by giving us CBC Two. The listenership
20 numbers may not be large, but the CBC has always stood
21 for quality over quantity. The CBC is an important
22 part of my life, and I wish to see it affirmed, renewed
23 and revitalized.
24 711 Thank you.
25 --- Applause / Applaudissements
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1 712 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr.
2 Laing.
3 713 Mrs. MacDonald is not here, Edith
4 MacDonald?
5 714 Then that completes our list of
6 registered participants for the moment.
7 715 I would like to take a short break
8 and then ask CBC to complete this portion of our
9 Sudbury visit with their remarks.
10 716 It is now twenty after four. We will
11 reconvene at 4:30.
12 --- Recess at 1620 / Suspension à 1620
13 --- Upon resuming at 1630 / Reprise à 1630
14 717 THE CHAIRPERSON: Please join us at
15 the table.
16 718 We are also checking to see if there
17 are any participants who would have added their names
18 to the list.
19 719 It would appear not.
20 720 We will reconvene. As I mentioned in
21 my opening remarks, we are asking the CBC at the end of
22 this session and again at the end of the session this
23 evening to make a few remarks.
24 721 When you are ready, please identify
25 yourself.
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1 REPLY / RÉPLIQUE
2 722 MS FRY: My name is Mariam Fry. I am
3 the Regional Director of Radio for Ontario. That means
4 I am responsible for the stations in Ottawa, Sudbury,
5 Thunder Bay and Windsor.
6 723 I have colleagues here who represent
7 television and French and English radio: Bruce Taylor,
8 who represents television; Alain Dorion, who represents
9 French radio; and Maryse Lairot, who represents French
10 television.
11 724 I would like, first, to thank all the
12 people who took the time to prepare and to present
13 today. We have been listening very hard all afternoon.
14 You have probably seen us furiously scribbling notes.
15 We plan to get back in touch with each and every person
16 who made a presentation.
17 725 I would also like to thank the CRTC
18 for making this occasion available to so that we can
19 hear directly from people.
20 726 What we did hear was that they cared
21 deeply about the future of CBC, both radio and
22 television, and that they feel strongly that they have
23 a role in shaping its future. We are very glad to hear
24 that.
25 727 We heard about the importance of both
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1 local and regional radio and television, as well as a
2 national service, and the importance of CBC in allowing
3 Canadians to talk to each other.
4 728 One of the things I heard very loud
5 and clear was the concern about the lack of a Radio Two
6 outlet in Sudbury, and I am very pleased to tell people
7 that CBC will be applying within the next year for a
8 licence for both Radio Two and for La Chaîne culturelle
9 in Sudbury.
10 729 Thank you again for your time.
11 730 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much
12 for your comments.
13 731 That concludes this portion of our
14 consultation in Sudbury. As you know, we are
15 reconvening at 6:00 p.m. to 10:00 p.m. We have 13
16 registered participants.
17 732 Again, if anybody else would like to
18 register, please contact our Secretary.
19 733 J'aimerais remercier les participants
20 et participantes pour leur collaboration et leurs
21 commentaires sur le sujet de la SRC.
22 734 Thank you to all the participants.
23 We will be of course greeting a new group later, at 6
24 o'clock.
25 735 Thank you to our translation and
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1 court reporter for this session, and to my colleague
2 and staff.
3 736 We will see you again at 6:00 p.m.
4 737 Mr. Secretary, is there anything
5 else?
6 738 MR. LAHAY: No, Madam Chair.
7 739 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, all.
8 --- Recess at 1640 / Suspension à 1640
9 --- Upon resuming at 1804 / Reprise à 1804
10 740 THE CHAIRPERSON: I would like to
11 welcome you to this public consultation; a re-welcome
12 to those of you who were with us earlier.
13 741 I have some opening remarks which I
14 would like to put on the record. As you probably know,
15 we will ask our presenters to come to the table.
16 742 Right now it seems a little odd that
17 there is this big table and you are over there, but as
18 soon as we have completed our opening remarks, we will
19 change the structure of the room a little bit.
20 743 My name is Joan Pennefather. I would
21 like to introduce to you my colleague, Barbara Cram.
22 We are both Commissioners at the CBC.
23 744 Nous sommes ici pour recueillir vos
24 points de vue et vos commentaires sur la radio et la
25 télévision de Radio-Canada. Comment croyez-vous que la
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1 SRC devrait remplir son rôle dans les années à venir?
2 Voilà le genre de questions auxquelles nous voulons
3 entendre vos réponses.
4 745 The CBC is a national public service,
5 broadcasting in English as well as in French. It plays
6 an important role in the Canadian broadcasting system.
7 Today, many elements are constantly being added to the
8 broadcasting system as new technologies multiply,
9 converge, open up new horizons, and increasingly offer
10 new services.
11 746 In this context, we want to know what
12 are your needs and expectations as viewers and as
13 listeners of the CBC.
14 747 Il est donc très important pour le
15 Conseil d'entendre ce que vous avez à dire à ce sujet.
16 Il ne faut pas oublier que le CRTC est un organisme
17 public au service des citoyens et citoyennes
18 canadiennes.
19 748 À ce titre, il a une responsabilité
20 envers eux. C'est pourquoi mes collègues conseillers
21 et moi-même trouvons essentiel de venir vous
22 rencontrer. Nous sommes donc présents dans onze villes
23 canadiennes du 9 au 18 mars inclusivement pour tenir
24 cette série de consultations régionales d'un bout à
25 l'autre du pays.
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1 749 As I just said, it is very important
2 that the Commission hears what you have to say. We
3 must not lose sight of the fact that the CRTC is a
4 public organization that serves Canadian citizens. In
5 this capacity, we are responsible to you. This is why
6 my fellow Commissioners and myself find it vital to
7 come and meet with you to discuss these issues and why
8 we are holding this series of regional consultations
9 from one end of the country to the other, in 11
10 Canadian cities, from March 9th to March 18th.
11 750 These consultations are designed to
12 give you a chance, on the eve of a new millennium, to
13 express your opinion on the CBC's role, the programming
14 it offers and the direction it should take at the
15 national, regional and local levels.
16 751 Through these consultations we hope
17 to enter into an open dialogue with you and to hear
18 your concerns.
19 752 Your comments will form part of the
20 public record which will be added to the record of the
21 public hearing on the CBC that will begin in Hull next
22 May 25th. At this upcoming hearing the Commission will
23 examine the CBC's application for the renewal of its
24 licences, including radio, television and its specialty
25 services, Newsworld and Réseau de l'information.
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1 753 You can also take part in that public
2 hearing by sending your written comments to the CRTC.
3 If you wish to do so, please remember to refer to the
4 specific licence renewals being examined when you file
5 your comments.
6 754 Tous vos commentaires aujourd'hui
7 feront partie du dossier public. Il sera lui-même
8 ajouté à celui de l'audience publique qui s'ouvrira à
9 Hull le 25 mai prochain. C'est au cours de cette
10 audience que le Conseil étudiera les demandes pour
11 renouveler les licences de radio et de télévision de la
12 SRC ainsi que de ses services spécialisés.
13 755 Vous pouvez aussi participer à cette
14 audience en faisant parvenir une intervention écrite au
15 CRTC. Vos observations devront alors porter
16 spécifiquement sur le renouvellement des licences en
17 question.
18 756 Now I would like to come back to
19 today and this evening's consultations. Please allow
20 me to introduce the CRTC staff who will be assisting
21 us: Donald Rhéaume, our legal counsel; and Rod Lahay
22 from our Broadcasting Planning Service.
23 757 Please feel free to call on them with
24 any questions you might have about the process tonight,
25 and on any other matter.
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1 758 So that you will all have the
2 opportunity to speak, we would ask that you please
3 limit your presentation to ten minutes.
4 759 As these consultations are a forum
5 designed especially for you and we want to listen to as
6 many participants as possible, we will not ask any
7 questions unless we need clarification.
8 760 At the end of this session,
9 representatives from the local CBC stations will have a
10 chance to offer their views, as they are naturally very
11 interested in the issues we are discussing here today.
12 761 Pour que vous ayez tous l'occasion de
13 vous faire entendre, nous vous demandons de limiter
14 votre présentation à 10 minutes. Ces consultations
15 sont votre tribune et nous voulons être à l'écoute du
16 plus grand nombre possible d'intervenants. Nous ne
17 poserons donc pas de question, sauf si nous avons
18 besoin de clarification.
19 762 Après vos interventions, les
20 représentants des stations locales de Radio-Canada
21 auront également droit de parole puisque ce sont les
22 premières intéressées par les questions que nous
23 abordons aujourd'hui.
24 763 Without any further ado, I will ask
25 Mr. Lahay to explain any further points on the process
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1 this evening.
2 764 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair.
3 765 I have a couple of areas of
4 housekeeping before we get started.
5 766 First of all, there are translation
6 services to my right, if you require the opposite
7 language. Please be prepared to provide some type of
8 identification.
9 767 As Madam Chair has indicated, please
10 only ten minutes for your presentations. And try to
11 watch that.
12 768 We will be calling the number of
13 presenters, starting with Rudi Steinmar; Mr. Georges
14 Linsey; Mr. Bill Oja; Armand Houle; Martin Potter;
15 Helmut Goebel; Mr. Richard Destefano; Jan Steven; Karl
16 Skierszkan; Sheryl Kennelly; Ronald Brisebois; Walter
17 Halchuk; and Jami van Haaften.
18 769 Would you please come forward and
19 take a position at the front table, and we will take
20 your presentations in that order. Thank you.
21 770 When you do give your presentation,
22 would you please state your name so that we have it on
23 the official record.
24 771 THE CHAIRPERSON: Would everybody
25 giving a presentation this evening join us at the table
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1 here, and we will proceed in the order as read.
2 --- Pause / Pause
3 772 MR. LAHAY: We will start with Rudi
4 Steinmar.
5 773 I will go down the list. Georges
6 Linsey.
7 1813
8 774 Thank you, Mr. Linsey.
9 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
10 775 MR. LINSEY: Good evening. I would
11 like to think -- as a matter of fact, I know -- that I
12 represent thousands of Canadians from coast to coast to
13 coast who all thank this CRTC body and the CBC for the
14 opportunity for me to speak on their behalf.
15 776 My request is the field of Canadian
16 old time fiddle music has been sadly neglected in
17 Canada, not in the rural villages, not in the halls,
18 not in the school dances, not in the fiddle contests --
19 of which there are hundreds across Canada. But I fail
20 to understand that we don't seem to present on the CBC
21 radio, which is our national radio.
22 777 We look to the CBC for unity, for
23 keeping us from coast to coast together, from
24 Newfoundland to British Columbia to the Yukon. I have
25 listened to the CBCV quite often, and I think I may
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1 have heard -- I stand corrected, of course -- five what
2 are referred to as presentations. I like the word
3 "presentations", because it doesn't mean to say that it
4 has to be regular; it can just be put on when it seems
5 to be fit.
6 778 But that is not correct. That is our
7 heritage music. Canadian old time fiddle music is
8 played from coast to coast to coast in Canada. There
9 are thousands of old time fiddlers, varying in age from
10 four to, I assure you, almost 104.
11 779 I may be exaggerating there a wee
12 bit, but I wanted to try and impress you.
13 780 Canadian old time fiddler music is
14 alive and well in every rural village in every part of
15 Canada. But we need to present it to the Canadians on
16 radio. We used to be able to tune into a program --
17 some of you won't remember -- referred to as the "Don
18 Messer Program". If you were doing your chores, it
19 could be on the farm in the village or whatever, from
20 quarter to five, or whatever the time was, you dropped
21 that and you listened to Don Messer. That was our
22 heritage music he played: jigs, reels, waltzes,
23 strathspeys, name the tunes. People listened to him
24 faithfully.
25 781 We want you to renew that. As I say,
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1 there are thousands of fiddle contests across Canada
2 and thousands of fiddlers play -- and I am not
3 exaggerating -- in thousands of villages from coast to
4 coast to coast. Canadian fiddle music is alive and
5 well in these villages. We would like to unite them.
6 We would like the people in Whitehorse, Yukon to hear
7 the Maritime fiddlers. We would like the people in the
8 Maritimes to hear the Métis fiddle style. We would
9 like them to hear the Quebec fiddlers. We can do this
10 on national radio, on CBC for an hour. That is not
11 asking too much.
12 782 "CBC FM proudly presents Canadian old
13 time fiddle music" would make thousands of people very,
14 very pleased and inspire our youth. You heard in the
15 lobby today some very fine examples of old time fiddle
16 music. If you didn't tap your feet to that music, I
17 would say your shoes had to be glued to the floor,
18 because that is our heritage music, and we should have
19 that music played on our heritage radio, CBC radio.
20 783 I believe in that firmly. I
21 circulated a petition some time ago. I attended many
22 fiddle contests and I had my little sign there that if
23 you want to hear one hour of good Canadian old time
24 fiddle music on the CBC, sign the petition.
25 784 I have upwards of 11,000 signatures
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1 and they are still coming in. I think that is pretty
2 impressive. That's not near the population of the
3 fiddle fans of old time fiddlers yet.
4 785 I have had the promise of a meeting
5 with a representative of Mr. Alex Frame's office in the
6 CBC for a meeting so I can know what do you people
7 expect of our one-hour of old time fiddle music, and we
8 will certainly present it to you.
9 786 This is my plea to you: one hour of
10 Canadian old time fiddle music with thousands and
11 thousands of Canadian people want to listen to. That
12 is their heritage music. It was played in Canada
13 before Confederation. That is the absolute truth.
14 787 Having said my piece -- I hope you do
15 understand me -- I relinquish the rest of my time to
16 Mr. Bill Oja, for a purpose which you will see.
17 788 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr.
18 Linsey.
19 1818
20 789 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair.
21 790 Mr. Bill Oja, please.
22 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
23 791 MR. OJA: We came up from Hamilton
24 for this fantastic event. I have ten minutes, and I
25 had a 34-page brief. But I think what I will do is
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1 tell you a couple of things.
2 792 In 1970 private radio in Canada
3 played one song out of 100 Canadian, one song out of
4 100 in 1970, and that included fiddle music, country
5 music, whatever. In 1971, after the CRTC put in the
6 Cancom, we got 30 per cent; three out of ten songs
7 Canadian, seven out of ten American. You walk into a
8 music store, a video store, 90 per cent of the CDs and
9 videos are U.S.
10 793 I have nothing against the U.S.
11 794 Now, 28 years later, with thousands
12 of Canadian recording artists, it is still 30 per cent.
13 Thank you goodness for the CBC and the CRTC.
14 795 Now, the other eight minutes of my
15 presentation I would like to tell you folks what old
16 time fiddling is all about, starting with 8-year-old
17 Nicholas -- who you will meet a little bit later --
18 right to Al Yetman, who is 60.
19 796 Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome
20 the Northern Ontario Canadian old time fiddlers.
21 --- Audio clip / Clip audio
22 --- Applause / Applaudissements
23 797 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you all very
24 much. That was great.
25 798 I guess we will go on to our next act
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1 -- I mean participant.
2 799 Bravo! Merci.
3 1827
4 800 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam
5 President.
6 801 Armand Houle.
7 802 Helmut Goebel.
8 803 Richard Destefano.
9 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
10 804 MR. DESTEFANO: Thank you. It is
11 pretty difficult to follow that. Could we move me
12 forward to a later time. I am of Italian descent and I
13 could sing some opera, but I'm not sure that would do.
14 805 I wrote everything out, because I
15 have a tendency to wander and I don't want to do that,
16 because I know how difficult it is for people to sit
17 there.
18 806 I want to welcome you to Sudbury, if
19 no one has done that. We are a city of lakes,
20 surprisingly. There are 37 within the region. And if
21 no one has offered you that service, I am prepared to
22 pick you up tomorrow morning and take you on tour for
23 half an our or an hour to show you some of the city, to
24 give you a sense of the city.
25 807 I would be pleased to drive you
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1 around and give you a presence within the community, to
2 give you a better understanding of who we are in the
3 city. That is open, and you can let me know tonight.
4 808 First of all, I want to congratulate
5 the CRTC for making the effort to come here. I think
6 the regional consultations are really critical. The
7 place that you meet and the people who come forward on
8 an individual basis are absolutely critical, because
9 most people I think don't believe that a pre-
10 consultation prior to a hearing has a very significant
11 influence.
12 809 I can tell people, from my
13 experience, that it is a very powerful place to be and
14 has a tremendous influence, especially with attentive
15 Commissioners.
16 810 I believe that without the CRTC --
17 and I am perhaps one of the minority -- the CBC would
18 be bleeding much more profusely. I think the fact that
19 the CRTC is there hinders government from taking
20 draconian steps to cut the role of the CBC. The mere
21 presence, even though I know the relationship on
22 funding and implications of directing government, the
23 fact that you are there is really critical.
24 811 I also know that I can't speak with
25 any authority on Canadian French TV or radio, and it
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1 would be derelict on my part to even make an attempt to
2 do so. I don't understand the language well enough, so
3 I will make no reference to it this evening. I will
4 leave that to those who understand it better.
5 812 Let's get on with the essential
6 issue: the future of the CBC.
7 813 I would like to coin a new phrase. I
8 came here to praise the CBC, not to bury it. That is
9 just an original thought I had this morning. If that
10 is what you are going to get for the rest of the night,
11 you are in trouble, I assure you.
12 --- Laughter / Rires
13 814 My whole family grew up on the CBC.
14 My son, who lives in Chicago, still goes into the
15 Internet every night just to make sure he can catch up
16 on what is going on. My 22-year-old son who is at
17 Western has the CBC radio on continually. He doesn't
18 have cable TV, because he can't afford it. But he does
19 listen to radio.
20 815 Because we praise it, that doesn't
21 mean that public radio and television and the new media
22 -- which I want to spend some time on tonight --
23 doesn't need cleansing, re-invention, re-engineering,
24 refocusing and establishing self as a global leader in
25 programming and production. I do not want to abandon
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1 the CBC in any way, but I think it needs to be washed
2 out; I think it needs to have its role re-considered.
3 816 I would like to embrace the phrase
4 "pride of place" so clearly enunciated in a recent
5 speech by Andrée Wylie, the Vice-Chairman of
6 Broadcasting, to the Atlantic Association of
7 Broadcasters.
8 817 By the way, all the material that I
9 am presenting tonight came off the Internet: the actual
10 documents, the speeches, the demographics, everything
11 came from the Internet. I think it is a powerful tool,
12 and I think CBC has a major role to play in that.
13 818 She talks about, and the Commission
14 has talked about, pride of place. I think it is
15 absolutely a brilliant statement about the CBC's role
16 and about our whole broadcasting system.
17 819 The complex mix of media services
18 being offered to Canadians is the cornerstone for the
19 future of the CBC: 52 channels, and some place in that
20 on television I have to find my place as a Canadian.
21 820 The CBC does a very admirable job on
22 reflecting one region to another on a national basis on
23 English radio, but I am not as convinced that it does a
24 good job on television. It seems to want to compete
25 with the other major broadcasters. It seems to want to
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1 use the same formats, the same designs and the same
2 applications.
3 821 I don't watch CBC television probably
4 more than four hours a week; I would listen 24 hours a
5 day, if I could, to radio.
6 822 I don't want to reiterate this, but
7 it does bring the geographical differences together.
8 It creates a country that needs to hear, see and talk
9 to each other, to talk about its successes, its
10 failures, its problems, and it is the only thing I can
11 find within the whole spectrum that brings that to the
12 front.
13 823 If the CBC were not present, national
14 radio and regional -- on which I am going to place
15 strong emphasis -- we probably would spend most of our
16 time reflecting on the morality of the President of the
17 United States. We probably would be listening to
18 fishing reports from Upper Michigan.
19 824 We shouldn't be spending all that
20 time listening to Monica and Bill and all their
21 problems. Maybe Jean Chrétien should do something
22 exciting so we would have a focus on that. I am not
23 saying he should do the same thing, just that he should
24 do something exciting.
25 825 I also think that most people who
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1 have never read the Broadcasting Act need to look at
2 Section 3. I almost think it should be part of your
3 package.
4 826 I would recommend that in the future
5 you literally put in the Broadcasting Act, Section 3,
6 because it is absolutely relevant; it was relevant ten
7 years ago and it will be relevant for the future.
8 827 Your vision statement, which most
9 people don't know about, is quite outstanding in its
10 flexibility and its approach to where broadcasting is
11 going. I don't think most people in the public even
12 know that there is a vision statement that has been
13 applied.
14 828 I would suggest that you reconsider
15 your package and look at that, so that people will
16 know.
17 829 I think the CBC will continue --
18 under the Act it says to "inform, enlighten, entertain
19 and be predominantly and distinctively Canadian". What
20 better phraseology can we look for for the CBC.
21 830 It must "reflect Canada and its
22 regions to national and regional audiences while
23 serving the special needs of those regions". You don't
24 have to redraft the Broadcasting Act or the CBC; you
25 just have to follow what you have said and make sure
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1 the CBC does.
2 831 The problem I am having with the CBC,
3 in my humble opinion, by the way -- and it is only my
4 opinion -- is that the CBC spends most of its time
5 telling Canadians that there is another management
6 problem in Ottawa, or that we are going to have a new
7 presents, or we will have an interim president, or
8 maybe we won't have any president at all.
9 832 We hear about downsizing, the
10 relationship between government and the CBC, and now
11 the impending strikes. We hear rumours about the
12 breakup of regional services and press releases about
13 the ongoing saga of disconnect and alarm.
14 833 As my son would say to me: "Give me
15 a break!" Give me a break from all of that
16 information.
17 834 Give Canadians a chance to hear about
18 the excellent programs, especially at the regional
19 level. If we could measure the energy that is expended
20 on the gloom within the CBC by its own station, we
21 could probably light an entire city like Sudbury and
22 never need a hydro commission. There is just so much
23 time wasted on that.
24 835 I think the Commission needs to make
25 that clear. In fact, I would like to see you establish
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1 -- and I am not saying this facetiously -- an on-air
2 policy that only allows, and is a condition of licence,
3 not an expectation, one story of three minutes duration
4 per week that makes any reference to management issues,
5 and, like our artists, be scheduled in fringe time
6 between 12:00 a.m. and 2:00 a.m. in the morning.
7 836 It would be a hell of a condition of
8 licence.
9 837 Are you afraid to do that one? Maybe
10 we will have to show some courage and make some clear
11 statements.
12 838 The radio and TV programming is
13 excellent. The quality is excellent. We are thin in
14 numbers. It is very evident lately. I think you are
15 going to hear that often.
16 839 At the regional level, I can't
17 believe how thin it is in personnel. But without
18 criticizing the weight of people, it is really quite
19 imaginative and creative, even with the limited
20 personnel that they have.
21 840 Radio One: I would love "As it
22 Happens", "Cross Country Check-up", "Tapestry" with Ian
23 Brown, who I know personally, who does a great job;
24 "Madly Off in All Directions", how we can laugh at
25 ourselves on the east coast and look at the rest of
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1 Canada and laugh at it; "Finkelman's Forty-Fives",
2 "Vinyl Cafe".
3 841 Those are excellent national
4 programs. They don't need to be changed. Let's just
5 enforce the content in them.
6 842 My suggestion for the future of
7 national radio in English is to encourage the CBC to
8 continue on its own path to excess, employing the
9 brightest, creative, energetic Canadian producers and
10 personnel to find its own niche.
11 843 I would like to emphasize that I
12 think the CBC personnel should be 100 per cent
13 Canadian, absolutely 100 per cent Canadian. Then we
14 will have Canadian reflection built into production. I
15 don't know if that is true or not, and I don't know if
16 we can influence that from the CRTC.
17 844 Encourage the CBC, but don't impose
18 any conditions, except that production programming and
19 personnel must be Canadian, and that they adhere
20 rigidly to the Broadcasting Act. Let the CBC find its
21 own place. Don't lay a lot of conditions around it;
22 let it find its own place. It is struggling, like all
23 other broadcasters.
24 845 It will be creative; it will adjust.
25 It always has. I know we can't do anything about
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1 money.
2 846 I think we need more people like Rex
3 Murphy and that guy Finkelmann. They are absolutely
4 the new public philosophers. They have the courage to
5 say what they think, and I think the CBC has restricted
6 that kind of dialogue on its radio system and on its
7 television, to the detriment of us.
8 847 The CBC is trying to be to nice. We
9 are Canadians. We always want to be nice. We need to
10 bring more open line shows, more discussions and talk.
11 We need to give the hosts in the public sector more
12 chance to express their points of views but let us do
13 it.
14 848 Jack Webster proved it to be
15 successful. Why can't we do it on our public radio.
16 849 Can we go beyond also the two nation
17 discussion that dominates programming and face the
18 reality in TV and radio that we have new faces, that
19 the demographics are changing, that other nations are
20 making up the dominant audiences. I want to hear more
21 of that in our system. Go to B.C., go to Toronto.
22 There is just not the traditional model and the two
23 nations. We are dominated by that discussion.
24 850 The CBC is better than most at what
25 it does -- I am going to try and move rapidly -- but
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1 one area that I think TV and radio needs to do is
2 increase its story-telling. We need more dramas on
3 radio and television that create a rich folklore of our
4 people and our geography. We don't see enough of it.
5 We try to copy the American model. We need more
6 excellence in that field.
7 851 Now my theme. The power of the CBC
8 is in the regional service. I, like many others, can
9 access multiple media on the world, on international
10 affairs. The choice is unlimited.
11 852 The northern region is critical, and
12 the local CBC service in Sudbury is one of our primary
13 sources of information. "The Morning Show", with one
14 voice -- one voice at this stage -- does a superb job
15 because it has great producers.
16 853 There is also a show at noon hour.
17 It doesn't have the power that the "The Morning Show"
18 has because people are listening.
19 854 "Points North" is absolutely the best
20 show that I have heard in the last ten years in
21 Sudbury. It has one voice, probably -- and there are
22 people in the audience who can tell you that --
23 probably one, or two or three, producers maximum. We
24 are just demolishing the potential for regional service
25 by lack of money and by lack of support.
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1 855 "News Updates", one voice. He does a
2 great job. He is in the audience. But he is one
3 voice, and it is unfair to him and unfair to us,
4 because we hear the same voice with the same news, and
5 he can only do so much.
6 856 There is no network without regional
7 CBC programs. Please, people need to understand that
8 networks don't emanate out of Toronto and we have a
9 national service. It is regional relationships that
10 count.
11 857 The regional service is important.
12 858 The other thing I want to talk about
13 -- and I will skip through it -- is that the economic
14 benefits of a regional service that comes to this
15 community are significant. I have done an estimate,
16 but I don't know how accurate it is. I would bet that
17 with disposable incomes, professional services, we are
18 probably over $1.5 million annually.
19 859 Don't take away those regional
20 economic benefits from us, because they are part of our
21 economic diversification. It establishes us as a
22 sophisticated city, and it gives personnel a place to
23 live and grow.
24 860 Time is running out. I want to make
25 sure that regional radio and TV stations fulfil a
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1 mandate.
2 861 I have been asked by a group of
3 musicians to give you this information. Recently,
4 there was another attempt by musicians in northern
5 Ontario to find their place in the Canadian market. I
6 attended a workshop in Sudbury last weekend, ably
7 encouraged by Mark Polumbo(ph), a local businessman,
8 who wants to expand existing exposure. "It begins at
9 home", he said, "and we are not doing enough."
10 862 I apologize, but we have all kinds of
11 people here who are just great, with no reservations:
12 Chuck Label(ph), Kevin Closs(ph), Erin Benjamin,
13 Melanie's Love Seat, The Elephant Band, Tara Kane, The
14 Smokers, The Easter Dogs, and we have five sound
15 recording studios here.
16 863 We don't have the exposure. Then Is
17 topped and heard, at ten to 5:00 today and at 5 o'clock
18 today, two local artists being played on the air after
19 I had written this, and I came back and I said: "My
20 God, I can't say what I am going to say."
21 864 Maybe I am missing something.
22 865 They need exposure. They are
23 Canadian talent and they need a place, the very words
24 that you have.
25 866 Last comment -- just another two or
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1 three minutes, if I may. Thank you.
2 867 The new media is exciting and will
3 capture a unique market segment. The CBC must continue
4 its role and in expanding its web capabilities and its
5 web casting. I would suggest that if anyone has not
6 been to the CBC website they are missing an important
7 and exciting asset that has been implemented for the
8 new wave of technowizards and the other more mature
9 technocrats.
10 868 I spent over 20 hours in the last two
11 weeks listening and playing archive programs from
12 "Ideas" and from a whole range of topics. I was
13 impressed with the production by Don Hill, who now
14 resides in Sudbury, entitled "Haunted House Haunted
15 Mind, Those Places and Ideas". It is a reflection of
16 the north, a reflection of its personnel and all of the
17 scary stuff that goes along with it. It was an
18 excellent production.
19 869 I am wondering why I am not receiving
20 Radio Two in Sudbury. I listen to the radio again, at
21 ten to 5:00, and there is an announcement that we are
22 going to get Radio Two in a year. So I got my
23 information by the radio after I had written this, and
24 I am really excited about that.
25 870 I downloaded "Shockwave" to hear
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1 "Sound Bites from the Juke Box", a page for kids. You
2 should listen to it; it's super. The only problem I
3 had was there are no Canadian songs on the Canadian
4 kids' juke box. Now, I stand to be corrected because I
5 don't know all of the artists, but I said: "Why aren't
6 they loading up the juke box for those kids with
7 Canadian music?" Why not 50 per cent Canadian talent?
8 871 If you are going to impose anything,
9 50 per cent Canadian talent on the web site. It has to
10 be produced and get copyright.
11 872 We need to spend more money. There
12 are 100 million people worldwide. They say by the year
13 2010 100 per cent of all homes will be wired. We can
14 export our expertise, our artists, and we can move
15 forward.
16 873 I would encourage the Commission to
17 establish a clear set of goals and objectives that is
18 achievable for the CBC in the next three to five years
19 regarding their webcasting; that the CBC consider the
20 importance of Canadian content only -- let's be
21 courageous and say only on its web services; that
22 partnerships with existing Canadian on-line services
23 expand the Canadian exposure to reach its targets.
24 874 It is important that the CRTC not
25 consider this media computer based Internet delivered
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1 under any regulatory framework until it is allowed to
2 find its place. In fact, I don't think you are ever
3 going to regulate it. I don't think you have the power
4 to; I don't think you have the influence to do it, and
5 I think we should let them find their own place.
6 875 I wanted to talk about changing
7 demographics, spend more time on CBC. But I want to
8 thank you. I have talked too long. The invitation is
9 open tomorrow morning.
10 876 Thank you very much.
11 877 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr.
12 Destefano. If you can leave a copy of your remarks as
13 well, just to make sure we have a full copy, that would
14 be excellent.
15 878 Thank you very much.
16 1845
17 879 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair.
18 880 Our next presenter on the list, in
19 order, is Jan Steven.
20 881 Karl Skierszkan. Please come
21 forward.
22 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
23 882 MR. SKIERSZKAN: I will be brief.
24 883 As the CBC-SRC is publicly funded by
25 Canadian citizens through their federal tax dollars, it
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1 is essential that its programming reflects the concerns
2 and interests of those very citizens who pay those
3 taxes. The CBC-SRC has taken this task seriously over
4 its history. It has fulfilled its role as a national
5 public broadcaster. It has undertaken a major feat in
6 unifying Canadians by allowing us to share national
7 discussions and to view national events. That it
8 broadcast both in English and in French allows us to
9 remain connected throughout Canada.
10 884 Personally speaking, that I have been
11 able to listen to French language programs in areas
12 where no French is spoken has helped me, as a
13 northeastern Ontario, to feel comfortable and at home
14 on the west coast, on the prairies and in Atlantic
15 Canada when travelling.
16 885 The CBC-SRC should continue to
17 encourage discussions on a national level by informing
18 and listening to Canadians across Canada in both
19 languages. It need not be so concerned with
20 entertaining Canadians in that other privately funded
21 broadcasters are able to do this, but should expand its
22 role in informing Canadians around issues and events.
23 It should also look beyond more mainstream
24 entertainments in its programming.
25 886 One difficulty, of course, in a
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1 country as large as Canada is that there are
2 interesting things happening in the regions but we are
3 all looking only at what happens in main centres.
4 887 So it could broadcast performing arts
5 events for more marginal Canadian artists. It could
6 broadcast live theatre, concerts and ballets, even if
7 they are simply cameras from the front of the balcony
8 aimed at the stage.
9 888 That may seem hokey, but it would
10 certainly allow people outside of the main centres to
11 see these things.
12 889 It could broadcast recorded
13 performances of fringe theatre, such as might be found
14 in Edmonton, nationally; again, as an idea that regions
15 could see what other regions are doing.
16 890 It could broadcast women's sporting
17 events, like the national university basketball
18 championships, as opposed to simply mainstream events
19 which other broadcasters would pick up anyway.
20 891 In taking the formative approach,
21 however, with respect to Canadian culture it need not
22 be elitist. In addition to seeking out to broadcast
23 works from more marginalized artists, it could seek to
24 hear the voices of those disenfranchised, such as
25 displaced workers, rural elderly, traditional people
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1 having difficulties negotiating the changing times.
2 892 And traditional people is not simply
3 traditional native people, but traditional rural
4 people, small "c" conservative, who don't necessarily
5 subscribe to those in power agenda but still feel
6 threatened by a lot of the changes.
7 893 I believe that the French language
8 radio service needs to radically change. After 30
9 years of official bilingualism and multiculturalism
10 there exists many Canadians who are, at least
11 passively, bilingual, francophile, wanting to receive
12 information and opinion and arts in French and who are
13 far removed from Quebec culture.
14 894 When thinking about it, the French
15 Canadian nation in Canada itself sees itself in
16 relation to the English Canadian nation, but there are
17 many, many French-speaking Canadians who see the
18 mainstream Quebec culture as one which disallows their
19 voices.
20 895 We need regional French programming.
21 We would like to have a Canadian French radio service
22 which parallels in every way the English service.
23 896 Uninterrupted radio service on the
24 highways across Canada would be nice. As mentioned
25 before, CBC stereo is only available to cable
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1 television subscribers in Sudbury at this time, but I
2 have just heard it will change.
3 897 Newsworld and RDI are excellent. The
4 Canadian public needs to know a lot more background
5 around the news covered, however. Political and social
6 issues need to be better clarified. Additionally,
7 there is a need for a lot more economic debate, more
8 information around economic implications of the various
9 events, and more information around the economic
10 background of the various events.
11 898 The Canadian public has few options
12 when looking for honest economic reporting, and the
13 CBC's Newsworld and RDI could fill that need. Again,
14 there is a perception that the economic reporting we
15 get from governments or from main interests have vested
16 interests and are more slanted.
17 899 It could also do this economic
18 reporting in a way that minimizes the jargon that
19 distances the Canadian public, who need to know in
20 order that every citizen make responsible decisions,
21 both economically and politically.
22 900 In summation, let other broadcasters
23 fill the screen with reassuring entertainments,
24 including their versions of the news. Let the CBC-SRC
25 inform the Canadian public, provide a forum for
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1 discussion and allow us all to review the works and
2 performances of Canadian artists and athletes.
3 901 Thank you.
4 902 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very
5 much.
6 903 Mr. Secretary.
7 1852
8 904 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair.
9 905 Our next presenter, in order, is
10 Sheryl Kennelly.
11 906 Ronald Brisebois.
12 907 Monsieur Brisebois, s'il vous plaît.
13 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
14 908 MR. BRISEBOIS: Good evening. My
15 name is Ronald Brisebois. If I am addressing you this
16 evening, it is to bring to light a persistent problem I
17 find plaguing not so much CBC but many other channels
18 on cable television.
19 909 I am not so sure if it is a sign of
20 social degradation, but it seems that sexuality and
21 sensuality has become a redundant theme that is
22 unfortunately plaguing home entertainment in all forms
23 of media.
24 910 My question tonight is: How is
25 anyone supposed to retain a clear focused mind amid
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1 such a display of corruption? And more importantly,
2 how is one supposed to keep its heart and soul pure
3 when it is literally bombarded with sexual images on
4 television, even on commercials?
5 911 I refer especially to the program
6 "Melrose Place".
7 912 I find television as a whole in
8 appropriate, especially for children. When you
9 consider that "Melrose Place" is being played at 6:00
10 p.m. and my children can actually view this, I find
11 that extremely inappropriate for my children.
12 913 I believe it is the responsibility of
13 CBC and CRTC to regulate programs that emphasize
14 education, values and morality. One value that CBC
15 seems to fall short on is the value of life, as
16 indicated in one program that aired on February 19th of
17 this year, namely "Thou Shalt Not Kill". This program
18 seemed to attack unjustly the Pro-Life Movement in
19 Canada.
20 914 Pro-Life, as you probably know, is a
21 peaceful movement which emphasizes silence and prayer
22 during their marches and are pro-life from conception
23 to natural death. We are against abortion absolutely,
24 while we find all lives to be sacred, and we pray for
25 the conversion of doctors so they may see the truth in
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1 their work.
2 915 The objective of the health care, at
3 least in my eyes, is to diagnose, heal sickness and
4 promote recovery, not to kill. To become pregnant is
5 not a sickness or a disease; it is a gift. What
6 troubles me most is that most clips and spokespersons
7 used on that program were mostly from the U.S. and some
8 events dated several years ago. You did not give the
9 Canadian view on the issue, but the American view of a
10 few fanatic groups and individuals.
11 916 I do not want my tax dollars to be
12 used in what could be interpreted as misinformation,
13 because it was slanted on one side. Pro-Life hardly
14 had a word in there. Anything that came from Pro-Life
15 was always from the States; there was not really any
16 view from Canadians, like the directors of Alliance for
17 Life, or Pro-Life.
18 917 On a positive note, CBC seems to be
19 one of the leading channels on television when it comes
20 to family programming. I was just enjoying the other
21 evening Walt Disney with the children, for example; and
22 a show I used to watch a lot was "Road to Avonlea".
23 918 These are programs that I look
24 forward to spending quality time with my children.
25 Personal favourites are also the hockey games and a
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1 certain program, "Life and Times", that brings about
2 Canadian nationalism, pride, showing the lives of
3 Canadians that are too often forgotten or overshadowed
4 by American television.
5 919 Perhaps my only recommendation is
6 that television is a tool that could be used to better
7 people, to educate them, to open people's eyes to a
8 world around them, but it must be done in a manner that
9 is objective, presenting both sides of the argument
10 equally for Canadians, to be educated impartially,
11 especially on social issues and news coverage, for what
12 you show literally plays a significant role and
13 influence in the lives of Canadians.
14 920 I thank you for your time. Good
15 evening.
16 921 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very
17 much.
18 922 Mr. Secretary.
19 1855
20 923 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair.
21 924 Walter Halchuk, please.
22 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
23 925 MR. HALCHUK: That is a copy of my
24 presentation so that you have it there.
25 926 First of all, I am here from the
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1 Ukrainian Canadian Congress. I am also a member of the
2 Canadian Civil Liberties Association, and I am on the
3 national board of directors with the Congress and their
4 Justice Committee.
5 927 My presentation is also as the
6 Council Chair in Sudbury, but it deals on issues that
7 are provincial as well as national. I will go on with
8 my presentation.
9 928 The Ukrainian Canadian Congress
10 (UCC), founded in 1940, with its regional councils and
11 branches, represents the Ukrainian Canadian community
12 before the before our provincial
13 governments and before the city and/or regional
14 governments throughout Canada -- a Ukrainian-Canadian
15 parliament, if you will. It serves as a unifying forum
16 for efforts and programs of the various Ukrainian
17 organizations across Canada, promotes linkages with
18 Ukraine and addressed the needs and concerns of the
19 Ukrainian community in Canada.
20 929 We welcome the opportunity to present
21 our views to the CRTC on the programming and operation
22 of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation (CBC). Our
23 Prime Minister, the Right Honourable Jean Chrétien,
24 during his recent official visit to Ukraine,
25 underscored the importance of the Ukrainian community
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1 to Canada's cultural and economic policies. The
2 Sudbury Council of the Ukrainian Canadian Congress
3 trusts the CRTC agrees with our Prime Minster and will
4 fully consider our views.
5 930 One of the questions that was put in
6 as guidelines was:
7 "How well does the CBC fulfil
8 its role as the national
9 broadcaster?"
10 931 And here we are primarily addressing
11 the English languages programs in radio, TV and the
12 Internet.
13 932 Generally, the CBC fulfils its role
14 well, in particular radio, but there is definitely room
15 for improvement. The CBC itself recognizes that fact
16 -- and I quote:
17 "Even the most rigorously
18 managed journalistic
19 organization may once in a while
20 abuse the freedom it enjoys or
21 allow its journalists to lose
22 sight of their professional
23 responsibilities. The Canadian
24 Broadcasting Corporation is not
25 immune to such errors but
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1 remains determined to achieve
2 the highest possible standards.
3 The CBC is fully committed to
4 maintaining accuracy, integrity
5 and fairness in its journalism."
6 (As read)
7 933 By the way, this is from the CBC
8 Internet site, and anybody can access that, which I
9 believe is an example to many others.
10 934 What is that commitment? According
11 to CBC's own document entitled "Informing Canadians:
12 CBC Journalism in the 1990s", this public broadcaster
13 makes the following commitment to the citizens of
14 Canada:
15 "The CBC belongs to the people
16 of Canada. The purpose and
17 responsibility of its journalism
18 is to contribute to their
19 citizenship, to their need to be
20 informed, and to understand the
21 divers society of which each of
22 them is part...The people who
23 make up the audiences for its
24 programs are perceived not as
25 consumers but as citizens --
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1 citizens who must constantly be
2 informed and stimulated so that
3 they may adequately discharge
4 their responsibilities as
5 members of a democratic
6 community."
7 935 Based on this commitment, we have
8 found the CBC lacking. In its laudable quest for
9 excellence, the CBC has lost sight of relevance. The
10 citizenship is being informed, but only in part, as
11 this understanding of the "diverse society" must first
12 be revisited by the CBC itself. We would like to help.
13 Fact or not, the perception across Canada is that the
14 CBC's accuracy, integrity and fairness has suffered.
15 936 We are confident that the CBC wishes
16 to diligently discharge its stated responsibility, but
17 with the recent focus on resources and not on the job
18 at hand -- I believe Mr. Destefano mentioned a
19 condition for relicensing; he did it a little more
20 eloquently than this -- the CBC has been distracted.
21 937 Ready productions that may "not be to
22 the normally high standards of the CBC", but which are
23 very meaningful to the ethno-cultural communities of
24 Canada received dismissive, bordering on
25 discriminatory, attention. I speak of the award-
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1 winning films "Harvest of Despair" and "Freedom Had a
2 Price".
3 938 The Ukrainian Canadian community had
4 to organize a national lobbying effort to get both
5 "Harvest of Despair" and "Freedom Had A Price", shown
6 on CBC. This despite the fact that these films were
7 Canadian made, largely Canadian financed documentary
8 films, made by a Canadian film maker, and of interest
9 to a significant number of Canadian taxpayers --
10 especially in the light of 1998 being the 65th
11 anniversary of the great famine in the Ukraine.
12 939 It was very meaningful.
13 --- Foreign language / Langue étrangère
14 940 When members of our community
15 throughout Ontario were asked "What does CBC do for us,
16 as Canadians of Ukrainian heritage?", the answers were
17 passionate and heartfelt. Most did not feel included
18 and often felt insulted or ignored.
19 941 For example, during the Olympic games
20 in Nagano, the CBC had "nothing" to say about the teams
21 from Ukraine. The commentators were not prepared.
22 They did not know that to a large Canadian population
23 whose roots are in Ukraine that gaff was an insult.
24 This lack of sensitivity also took the form of a polite
25 but condescending reply to my personal inquiry as to
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1 this gaff -- 41 days later.
2 942 One respondent to the survey said the
3 following:
4 "There are ample examples of CBC
5 productions that focus on
6 Britain or French Canada or
7 native Canadians. Rarely, if
8 ever, they..."
9 943 And this is the CBC.
10 "...do anything having to do
11 with Ukrainians in Canada or
12 Ukraine, except for the very
13 rare mini-documentaries about
14 'men in sheepskin coats'...which
15 most of us aren't, and never
16 were, and don't have any direct
17 link to."
18 944 Another:
19 "If the CBC is to 'serve the
20 public', why doesn't the CBC do
21 a piece on the internment
22 operations in Canada during
23 World War I? That's Canadian
24 history! Or on Philip Konowal
25 as a Canadian Victoria Cross
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1 winner."
2 945 One thread that ran through most
3 responses was the distressing perception that speaks to
4 the commission not merely omission of actions and
5 comments. Many in our community, young and old alike,
6 believe there to be an anti-Ukrainian bias at the CBC.
7 Intended or not, the perception exists and must be
8 addressed.
9 946 Many are tired of the repeated
10 pairing of the terms Ukrainian and alleged Nazi war
11 criminal. The Ukrainian Canadian perspective on the
12 war crimes issue is rarely heard. Right now we have
13 several hearings that have just concluded while others
14 are continuing, yet the CBC does not cover those
15 stories, or appears after it's all over to promote
16 stories about thousands of World War II war criminals
17 in our midst. These are exaggerated and misleading
18 stories as ruled by the Duschenes Commission.
19 947 One example of one-sided reporting
20 was an interview on Wednesday, July 22, 1998,
21 approximately 6:20 a.m. (Pacific Time), on CBC Radio
22 One with Mr. Silverstone, Council for the Canadian
23 Jewish Congress, extolling the pursuit of Nazi war
24 criminals. No alternate view to balance Mr.
25 Silverstone's bias was given. The whole idea of one-
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1 sided presentation must be viewed as promotion rather
2 than reporting, and is unworthy of the high standards
3 of the CBC.
4 948 We in turn were asked:
5 "Why do they [CBC] on the one
6 hand afford a platform to people
7 who are circulating 'hate
8 literature' in Canada and why,
9 on the other, wouldn't CBC cover
10 a story like tax receipts being
11 issued by political lobby groups
12 like the Friends of the Simon
13 Wiesenthal Center -- a story
14 that appeared in The National
15 Post?"
16 949 Where was the CBC?
17 950 If you notice, the respondents use
18 the term "they" when referring to the CBC. It is not
19 their public broadcaster.
20 951 The feeling of citizenship must not
21 be a hollow one. Without at least the perception of
22 membership, belonging or inclusion, the CBC is in fact
23 discouraging the participation of large numbers of
24 Canadians in a democratic society, and is certainly not
25 the stimulating force it is mandated to be.
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1 952 The next point was:
2 "In the new millennium, should
3 the CBC fulfil its role in a
4 different manner than it has in
5 the past?"
6 953 The answer is obvious and will be
7 address in our recommendations, and they are at the end
8 of this.
9 954 Next:
10 "Should the programming provided
11 by CBC radio and television be
12 different from that provided by
13 other broadcasters? If so, what
14 should those differences be?"
15 955 Certainly it should be different.
16 The CBC's commitment to citizenship must remain, and in
17 so doing Parliament must financially recognize the
18 civil service provided. The Government of Canada must
19 continue to significantly invest in this venue for
20 better citizenship.
21 956 In conclusion, the Sudbury Council of
22 the Ukrainian Congress, in its willingness to help,
23 suggests strongly the following:
24 957 1. That the federal government
25 allocate additional funding to reflect the multifaceted
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1 citizenship role undertaken by the CBC.
2 958 2. The formation of a CBC ethno-
3 cultural advisory council. Such a council will clearly
4 demonstrate to management and staff a commitment to the
5 fundamental principles entrenched in the "Broadcasting
6 Policy Reflecting Canada's Cultural and Linguistic
7 Diversity". "Ethnic" news is Canadian news.
8 959 3. Provide sensitivity training to
9 staff and management on the multicultural reality of
10 Canadian society.
11 960 I believe Mr. Destefano also touched
12 on that.
13 961 4. Designate staff and resources
14 needed to implement and support Nos. 2 and 3 -- which
15 is the council and training.
16 962 5. Establish a liaison position with
17 the Ukrainian community.
18 963 6. Hire more journalists already
19 sensitized to Canada's ethno-cultural diversity.
20 964 7. Focus on cross-cultural issues
21 such as the Genocide Museum, a unique Canadian approach
22 to recognizing man's inhumanity to man. A model for
23 the rest of the world.
24 965 8. Rebroadcast programs from CBC's
25 international service to Canadian audiences.
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1 966 This is excellent programming. Few
2 people hear about it.
3 967 9. Redistribute CBC's overseas news
4 bureaus in a manner that reflects the multicultural
5 nature of Canadian society. Such a restructuring will
6 provide a fresh variety of reports and gain the CBC
7 greater market share.
8 968 Thank you for your time. I believe
9 that's it.
10 969 THE CHAIRPERSON: Than you very much,
11 Mr. Halchuk.
12 970 Mr. Secretary.
13 1908
14 971 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair.
15 972 Jami van Haaften, please.
16 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
17 973 MS VAN HAAFTEN: I have already
18 submitted my notes for your file.
19 974 It is hard to limit my feelings about
20 the future of the CBC to ten minutes and talk about
21 both radio and television services. They are two
22 distinct services and two which I think are vital if we
23 are to continue as an informed and entertained
24 Canadian culture.
25 975 My concern about the future role of
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1 the CBC relates to access. I have used Stats Canada
2 census data to make my point in graphic sense.
3 976 Less than 1 per cent of Canadian
4 households are without at least one radio or television
5 set. Clearly, ownership of either appliance allows
6 about 99 per cent of Canadian households to tune in to
7 CBC radio or television. However, my access in the
8 various Ontario cities I have lived in has been
9 affected by the quality of the signal, the programming
10 choices made by recent regional managers, and more
11 recently by what I can only get through use of a cable
12 television subscription.
13 977 Using Stats Canada numbers, 26 per
14 cent of Canadian households which do not have cable do
15 not have access to either Newsworld or CBC Radio Two.
16 978 When you move into newer Internet
17 based technologies, you are limiting access even more.
18 In 1996, according to Stats Canada, only 7 per cent of
19 Canadian households were using the Internet. This is
20 not an argument to stop using the Internet to duplicate
21 or enhance CBC broadcast services. However, don't lose
22 sight of the fact that a nationally funded broadcast
23 service should be freely accessible by everyone.
24 979 There have been many times I felt
25 isolated and cut off from services the CBC offered. I
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1 am old enough to remember the introduction of
2 television to the community I lived in, during the
3 early 1960s. It seems to me the test pattern was on
4 most of the day, and we tended to watch programs in the
5 evening.
6 980 The experience was repeated in 1980,
7 to a lesser extent, when I lived in Red Lake, Ontario.
8 981 By the time I was living in Roslin, a
9 community north of Belleville, with a young family, I
10 knew what services were available in bigger cities and
11 towns and what I didn't have. For some reason the FM
12 radio signal was fairly weak and hard to find on the
13 dial. It took the Gulf War to bring Newsworld
14 programming to my television for a brief period.
15 Otherwise, I only enjoyed it when I visited my mother
16 in The Sioux, where she had cable service.
17 982 There are many successes which the
18 CBC can claim, including quality journalism and the
19 strength of their regional radio program, which for
20 some reason I appreciate more now when I am living in
21 northern Ontario. The biggest improvement to CBC's
22 television service could be to make it more like radio.
23 A stronger regional service is a foundation for
24 national program, both information and entertainment;
25 commercial-free programs; a common program schedule;
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1 and predominantly Canadian content. Then we would have
2 a truly choice blend of news, information and
3 entertainment.
4 983 There are challenges too. Funding
5 cuts threaten the staffing levels and resources
6 available to produce quality programs. Both should be
7 protected in order to make the national service that
8 much more relevant to all Canadians. The second
9 challenge is to use available technology to move beyond
10 a public broadcast service owned by all Canadians to
11 one which can be freely accessed by all Canadians.
12 984 Thank you.
13 985 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very
14 much, Ms van Haaften. We appreciate your being here.
15 986 Mr. Secretary, we should recall some
16 of the names we had on the list.
17 987 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair.
18 988 Rudi Steinmar; Armand Houle; Martin
19 Potter; Helmut Goebel; Jan Steven; Sheryl Kennelly.
20 989 No response, Madam Chair, for any of
21 the names.
22 990 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very
23 much.
24 991 As I said earlier, two points: One,
25 our approach to these consultations is to spend as much
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1 time as possible listening to what you have to say, and
2 hence we are not asking questions. That is in no way
3 an indication of lack of interest. As was said by one
4 of the participants, this is a very important process
5 for us, and your input is key to future decision-
6 making.
7 992 The other point is that, as earlier
8 in the day, we ask CBC to join us at the end of the
9 session to give us come comment on what they have
10 heard.
11 993 I would ask that that occur again.
12 994 Do you need a short break before we
13 do that, or can you proceed?
14 995 MR. TAYLOR: I am fine.
15 1914
16 996 THE CHAIRPERSON: All right; thank
17 you.
18 REPLY / RÉPLIQUE
19 997 MR. TAYLOR: My name is Bruce Taylor.
20 I am the Regional Director of Television for English
21 Television in Ontario.
22 998 On behalf of my colleagues from
23 English radio and French radio and television, I would
24 like to thank very much all of those who took the time
25 to prepare submissions for the CRTC tonight and to
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1 bring them forward, and this afternoon as well.
2 999 To digress, I think this evening we
3 were treated to one of the most entertaining
4 submissions that I have ever heard at a CRTC gathering.
5 1000 I would also like to thank the CRTC
6 for providing the opportunity for us to hear, first-
7 hand, from those people for whom we deliver these
8 services.
9 1001 In the audience tonight, among the
10 CBC people here, are Miriam Fry, my colleague
11 representing English radio; Alain Dorion, representing
12 French radio; and Maurice Lariault, representing French
13 television. We have all been making very careful notes
14 and paying careful attention to what has been said.
15 1002 We will endeavour to get back to
16 those who made presentations on the specific issues
17 which were raised.
18 1003 That is all I have to say, except
19 thanks again.
20 1004 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very
21 much, Mr. Taylor.
22 1005 I was just conferring with my
23 colleague, and indeed, as it is 7:15 and we announced
24 that this session was on until 10:00, we will take a
25 short break but we will stay here for a while to make
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1 sure that if people come in a little later, they may
2 want to join us.
3 --- Off microphone / Sans microphone
4 1006 THE CHAIRPERSON: By all means.
5 1007 Again, we can go back to CBC if there
6 is another comment you wish to make.
7 1918
8 1008 If you could, would you tell us who
9 you are -- if you would; not if you could.
10 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
11 1009 MR. REID: Sometimes maybe not. My
12 name is Paul Reid. I am a businessman in Sudbury. I
13 am a past President of the Chamber of Commerce here.
14 1010 I would like to welcome you to
15 Sudbury. I think the hearings into the relicensing of
16 the CBC are very crucial, at a crucial time. I think
17 that if we go with the status quo that we have accepted
18 in the past, the next time it comes up, in three or
19 five years, we won't be talking about it. I think it
20 has to change.
21 1011 I think you have to take a look at
22 accountability. I see the Chair of the CBC Board is
23 talking about accountability. I think you have to say:
24 How many people listen to the service? I think the
25 numbers are less than 10 per cent of the national
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1 audience. I think it is a shame.
2 1012 I listen to it. I like the regional
3 programming. I listen to it here in the morning,
4 because it is the only way you can find out what is
5 going on around northern Ontario. I listen to the
6 national radio when I am driving. I like the programs
7 on CBC TV -- I like some of them, not all.
8 1013 I think we don't do a good job in
9 this mandate of getting Canadians to talk to one
10 another, back and forth. I think it is Toronto-
11 centered, Montreal-centred. There are other things
12 happening in this country outside those two centres. I
13 think that we ought to focus on that, as some of the
14 other people have said. We should do that with the new
15 technologies.
16 1014 I see that part of the vision of the
17 current President of the CBC is to add another youth
18 channel, and he is going to operate it out of the
19 existing money. I have been listening and, as a
20 businessman, he keeps telling me that there is no money
21 in that budget. I don't think you can add any
22 additional services until you correct what you are
23 doing now. I don't think the Canadian people are going
24 to really care. It is a shame because this is a
25 valuable service, and I think it is very important as a
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1 nation to be able to talk to one another from this
2 coast to that coast, back and forth, north and south,
3 east and west. I think it is key to keep this country
4 together.
5 1015 I am prepared to invest the money and
6 the time in it, and I think that is why I came here
7 tonight to talk about it, because I don't think anyone
8 is talking about the organizational structure.
9 1016 I think that if you okay the vision
10 and add a Radio Three, it takes away resources from
11 Radio One and Radio Two. Let's have Radio One. Let's
12 have the feed from the regions. Let's have a national
13 service so we can talk to one another. Let's do it
14 well.
15 1017 The same on the TV side. I don't
16 know whether, with all the choices today, that we can
17 divvy up the market. I think the key thing to look at
18 is content that you have to sell. I don't think there
19 is enough content. We are not putting the resources.
20 We have repeats on the radio; we have repeats on TV.
21 1018 "The National" starts at 9:00 on
22 Channel 14, goes to 10:00 on Channel 8 here locally,
23 and repeats again. That is how they say they get some
24 numbers, but it doesn't work.
25 1019 I say let's take a look at what we
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1 are doing now and let's make it better and address the
2 structural problems. We have to get some
3 accountability here, and we have to focus on the core
4 operation before we add anything else to this
5 operation. I think it is key.
6 1020 In the TV side, I think we ought to
7 eliminate advertising off it. I think it ought to be
8 funded properly so they don't have to do a begging
9 number, like TVOntario does all the time, interrupting
10 all the programming. I don't like that. If citizens
11 felt that they were getting something, I think they
12 would pay for it.
13 1021 I don't like the special tariff idea
14 based on cable subscription. Pay it out of the general
15 revenues, tax revenues of this country, but do it well.
16 1022 I think it is key that we look at a
17 couple of things: focus the operation, look at the
18 content, put the resources in. We need it. I think
19 that if we don't, we won't be here in a few years
20 talking about the renewal. I think it will die, those
21 options.
22 1023 I think it is a real challenge. I
23 think it is an exciting time, both for the corporation
24 and for the regulators in this country, to take a look
25 at how you could change it. I think that the Canadian
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1 public is interested. A lot of people won't speak up.
2 You have started with this discussion and you can
3 pursue it along, but I think you have to look at where
4 we are now, how we can build on it before we add
5 anything and make the system accountable.
6 1024 When you read about some program that
7 is critically acclaimed, excuse me, to me, that means
8 no one watched the damn program. I want to see some
9 numbers. I don't mind spending if I get something.
10 And I don't mind if it is fringe programming. I want
11 to see something.
12 1025 Somebody has got to want to watch
13 this thing other than somebody who sold some producer
14 on the concept. Somebody has got to watch. And it
15 should be some numbers, some significant numbers.
16 1026 I think that is key, and I don't
17 think that is too much to ask of the public dollar.
18 That is basically what I want to say.
19 1027 Thank you for the opportunity.
20 Again, thank you for coming to Sudbury and giving us
21 this opportunity to talk.
22 1924
23 1028 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. We
24 appreciate your joining in the conversation.
25 1029 Is there anyone else in the audience
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1 who would like to come to the table to make some
2 remarks?
3 1030 Sir -- and I will get this right this
4 time -- would you kindly tell us who you are.
5 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
6 1031 MR. JENNINGS: My name is Alan
7 Jennings. I am an engineer and scientist. I have
8 lived in Sudbury for 32 years.
9 1032 Good evening. Thank you for this
10 opportunity.
11 1033 I do not have a prepared
12 presentation, because I only recently learned of the
13 fact of your visit, but there are some things about the
14 topic which do concern me. I am not coming from a
15 position of any particular bias, but I do perceive
16 certain things which I would like to suggest may be of
17 interest to you and should be watched in the future.
18 1034 I would agree that CBC has many, many
19 excellent programs, and my remarks would also take CBC
20 in the context of television programming in general,
21 rather than particularly CBC. I would like to make
22 some observations about CBC and the other channels
23 which seem to me to have a similar focus at time.
24 1035 One of my concerns is the
25 superficiality of many of the programs, particulary
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1 political programs lacking in depth, frequently biased,
2 in my opinion. And I try to take a reasonably detached
3 view. I don't have any particular axe to grind.
4 1036 Sometimes one has the impression that
5 the public is a mass to be manipulated. For example,
6 one frequently can perceive within advertisements a
7 political agenda, whether it be feminism, sexism, or
8 Quebec separatism. I believe there is frequently a
9 lack of objectivity and depth of investigation.
10 1037 Another subject that concerns me,
11 being an engineer and scientist, is that science is not
12 well treated on television. If you want an example,
13 the handling of global warming is a very distorted
14 viewpoint which has very little scientific backing
15 quite frequently.
16 1038 There is frequently a focus on
17 triviality, violence and sex, and tacky ads. I think
18 the standards of some of the advertisements that are
19 shown on television are (a) politically biased and (b)
20 objectionable from a taste point of view.
21 1039 If you want me to quote an example, I
22 think one gets a little tired of ads for diarrhoea
23 medicines and hygiene products, of which there seems to
24 be an interminable number.
25 1040 I perceive that there is in fact
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1 little attempt to draw the country together. Again,
2 what is done is largely superficial. I think there
3 could be a much greater effort to present, for example,
4 what Quebeckers think. I believe that there is biased
5 comment in favour of separatism within the programs
6 that we see.
7 1041 I would like to suggest that the
8 numbers of people who listen to a particular program is
9 not a major criterion as to (a) its effectiveness or
10 (b) its desirability. You may aim at a small audience
11 for a particular reason.
12 1042 What I am suggesting is that we
13 should not necessarily follow the lowest common
14 denominator in terms of programming; that some times
15 you aim for an audience of perhaps people who may wish
16 to change the political system in which large numbers
17 of people are not interested. But that doesn't say
18 that we shouldn't have politically oriented programs,
19 provided they are balanced and not distorted or biased.
20 1043 I think it was clear from some of the
21 other comments that were made that I am not the only
22 person who is concerned about bias, integrity and
23 fairness or accountability. I would like to suggest
24 that you have an awesome responsibility and that some
25 of these problems need a very carefully selected range
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1 of opinion. Frequently opinion seem to me to have been
2 either self-selected that are broadcast or selected
3 from a relatively small number or a limited
4 perspective. Shall I put it that way.
5 1044 I would like to see some more
6 objectivity, an examination of serious issues which
7 affect the country in depth.
8 1045 I still don't know exactly what
9 Quebec would really like to have, despite innumerable
10 programs: the depth, the penetration of what people are
11 really after and whether this is in fact economics or
12 whether it is emotional, history, traditional, or what.
13 I don't think we are getting at these major topics in
14 any appreciable depth.
15 1046 I would like to thank you for the
16 opportunity to throw in a few fairly unprepared
17 comments.
18 1047 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very
19 much, Mr. Jennings.
20 1048 I think what we might do is take a
21 short break. As I said earlier, we had planned to go a
22 little later, so we will hold on in case somebody joins
23 us later in the evening.
24 1049 Mr. Secretary, has anybody come into
25 the room from the registered list that you read out
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1 previously? Perhaps you could check again.
2 1050 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair.
3 1051 We will go over the list again to see
4 if anybody has entered the room since we did it a
5 little while ago.
6 1052 Rudi Steinmar; Armand Houle; Martin
7 Potter; Helmut Goebel; Jan Steven.
8 1053 THE CHAIRPERSON: Sheryl Kennelly?
9 1054 Si vous voulez, on va prendre une
10 pause de dix minutes. We will break for ten minutes
11 and come back at 25 to eight and see if anybody joins
12 us at that time.
13 1055 Thank you.
14 --- Recess at 1925 / Suspension à 1925
15 --- Upon resuming at 1935 / Reprise à 1935
16 1056 THE CHAIRPERSON: All right, we are
17 going to -- on va recommencer. We will reconvene. I
18 have two people to invite to the table.
19 1057 Monsieur Ouellette, I believe you
20 expressed an interest, and Mr. Halchuk will also return
21 to the table.
22 1058 MR. LAHAY: If you wouldn't mind
23 stating your name, please, for the record.
24 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
25 1059 MR. OUELLETTE: My name is Leonard
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1 Ouellette. I am an employee with the Conseil scolaire
2 catholique du nouvel Ontario. I was born and raised in
3 Sudbury, for 40 years.
4 1060 It makes me a little bit nervous to
5 come up and speak here. I am not a spokesperson, but I
6 have a few words to say.
7 1061 I am a little bit surprised on what I
8 am hearing, because I really thought this was strictly
9 for radio, but I believe it is for television as well.
10 I don't have much to say for television, for the fact
11 that I just watched the news. I don't watch much
12 television. Therefore, I am only going to comment on
13 what I think of the radio and what it does for me in my
14 life.
15 1062 I believe CBC radio attracts people
16 who listen, a type of people who want to know what is
17 going on nationally, locally and provincially. It also
18 attracts the kind of people who don't want to hear
19 constant commercial, advertising and music that is
20 repetitious and gets on your nerves in the long run.
21 It attracts people who want to listen to conversation,
22 and what not.
23 1063 I am not one to write or call in to
24 the radio. I am a typical listener, who listens and
25 enjoys what is being said. I like their programs from
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1 top to bottom, on how it is presented and how it is
2 offered. I think it is critical in the sense that any
3 other local radios do not offer this. It is strictly
4 based on the bottom line, so therefore lots of
5 advertising and gibberish and ridiculous humour and
6 what not.
7 1064 I would also like to point out that I
8 do listen to all stations in Sudbury. I am bilingual
9 and I listen to the CBC, the university station and the
10 other locals. But when I want a little bit of peace
11 and what not, the CBC is what I like to listen to.
12 1065 I heard some statistics that you
13 capture 11 per cent of the general public. Is this for
14 radio as well; that your audience is 11 per cent of the
15 listeners. Is that what it is:
16 1066 THE CHAIRPERSON: If you are
17 addressing a question to the CBC, perhaps later when
18 they come to the table they could respond.
19 1067 MR. OUELLETTE: Statistics are nice,
20 but from my understanding you have to get statistics
21 that are based on a specific group. I don't believe
22 this is just any group that listens to the CBC. You do
23 have a wide range, but it has to be people who are
24 interested in the country, people who read and people
25 who do this.
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1 1068 What it does to me is that it is
2 truly a learning station. I feel that the country is
3 small because of this station. To privatize is always
4 easy, but I think if it is to go that route, you would
5 have to put a lot of contingencies, such as rules as to
6 who is to advertise, how much advertising. And again,
7 your contents of topics would have to be a criteria as
8 to privatizing and not just becoming another radio
9 station.
10 1069 That's all I have to say.
11 1950
12 1070 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr.
13 Ouellette. We appreciate your comments.
14 1071 Mr. Halchuk, we have asked you to
15 make a clarification. I think you wanted, in fact, to
16 clarify a point that you raised in your remarks.
17 1072 MR. HALCHUK: Thank you. In my
18 presentation I made an assumption that obviously was
19 not conveyed properly.
20 1073 First of all, why we are addressing
21 the English language media is the fact that in our
22 community we are a fourth generation community. We are
23 talking about people whose primary language is English.
24 1074 In Sudbury alone, when I take a look
25 at the associations, even there the languages have been
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1 transferred from Ukrainian to English in the
2 operations. So when you are looking at 86 per cent of
3 the population that primarily deals in English, a large
4 portion of it dealing trilingually in Ukrainian,
5 English and French as well, the fact that when we are
6 asking for programming, we are looking for programming
7 in English primarily, and also in French.
8 1075 That is why out of the nine
9 recommendations there is only one that speaks to
10 actually having a language other than English in
11 French. And that was the one re broadcasting in
12 international languages.
13 1076 We are looking for interesting
14 programs. The people growing up here are interested in
15 that aspect of it. During our congress, for example,
16 we had a major topic on education: how do we convey
17 the Ukrainian Canadian culture using the English
18 language.
19 1077 We had a gentleman at one point in
20 one of our conferences who is from Irish background,
21 and this helped. In effect, we are talking about the
22 English language conveying the message, the ethnic
23 programming in that fashion.
24 1078 Thank you.
25 1079 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for
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1 clarifying that on the public record.
2 1080 Is there anyone else who wishes to
3 make a comment?
4 1081 CBC, do you have any further remarks,
5 because we have had some speakers since your last
6 remarks?
7 1082 If you wish to take a little time,
8 Mr. Taylor, that's fine
9 --- Off microphone / Sans microphone
10 1083 THE CHAIRPERSON: No problem.
11 1084 MR. LAHAY: Just for housekeeping
12 order, I would like to remind everybody that if you did
13 take advantage of the translation services here this
14 afternoon or this evening, please remember to return
15 their device to the front of the room, at the side.
16 1085 Thank you.
17 --- Pause / Pause
18 1086 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
19 everyone. I believe Mr. Taylor is ready now.
20 1087 Please proceed.
21 REPLY / RÉPLIQUE
22 1088 MR. TAYLOR: Just again to say thank
23 you, Madam Chair, to all of those who took the time to
24 make presentations and to affording us the opportunity
25 to hearing this first hand.
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1 1089 Thank you very much.
2 1090 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very
3 much.
4 1091 I think we have agreed that there is
5 no one else in the room, unless I see a hand come up --
6 or if there is anybody behind the post. I cannot see
7 through concrete -- although we have certainly been
8 hearing. I think the musicians have either moved
9 upstairs or the hockey tournament is going on upstairs,
10 from the banging around.
11 1092 I am then ready to draw to a close.
12 We would like to thank all the participants of this
13 afternoon and this evening for coming here to share
14 with us your thoughts, your expectations, your comments
15 on the CBC and all of its services.
16 1093 Au nom de mes collègues, j'aimerais
17 remercier tout le monde qui est venu ici cet après-midi
18 et ce soir. Vos commentaires sont très importants dans
19 le processus public à l'égard de l'avenir de SRC/CBC.
20 1094 I would like to thank staff, thanks
21 to the translation, not only the gentleman with the
22 devices but the gentleman doing the translation, and to
23 our court reporter.
24 1095 Thank you again.
25 1096 I believe, then, that closes this
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1 public consultation.
2 1097 Thank you, Sudbury.
3 --- Whereupon the consultation concluded at 1955 /
4 Le consultation se termine à 1955
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