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Providing Content in Canada's Official Languages

Please note that the Official Languages Act requires that government publications be available in both official languages.

In order to meet some of the requirements under this Act, the Commission's transcripts will therefore be bilingual as to their covers, the listing of CRTC members and staff attending the hearings, and the table of contents.

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded verbatim transcript and, as such, is transcribed in either of the official languages, depending on the language spoken by the participant at the hearing.



                       SUBJECT / SUJET:

                  SOCIÉTÉ RADIO-CANADA (SRC)

HELD AT:                                TENUE À:

The Battery Hotel                       The Battery Hotel
and Suites                              and Suites
Riverhead Room                          Salle Riverhead
100 Signal Hill Road                    100, chem. Signal Hill
St. John's                              Saint-Jean
Newfoundland                            Terre-Neuve

March 16, 1999                          Le 16 mars 1999

tel: 613-521-0703         StenoTran         fax: 613-521-7668


In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages
Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be
bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members
and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded
verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in
either of the official languages, depending on the language
spoken by the participant at the public hearing.


Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues
officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront
bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des
membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience
publique ainsi que la table des matières.

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu
textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée
et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues
officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le
participant à l'audience publique.


                 Canadian Radio-television and
                 Telecommunications Commission

              Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des
                télécommunications canadiennes

                  Transcript / Transcription

              Public Hearing / Audience publique

                  SOCIÉTÉ RADIO-CANADA (SRC)


David Colville                          Chairperson / Président
                                        Telecommunications /


Karen Moore                             Commission Counsel /
                                        Avocate du Conseil
                                        Secretary / Secrétaire

Brien Rodger                            Director, Halifax 
                                        Regional Office /
                                        Directeur, Bureau régional
                                        de Halifax

Nick Ketchum                            Broadcasting Planning
                                        Service Branch / Services 
                                        de planification de la

HELD AT:                                TENUE À:

The Battery Hotel                       The Battery Hotel
and Suites                              and Suites
Riverhead Room                          Salle Riverhead
100 Signal Hill Road                    100, chem. Signal Hill
St. John's                              Saint-Jean
Newfoundland                            Terre-Neuve

March 16, 1999                          Le 16 mars 1999





Presentation by / Présentation par:

Ms Dorothy Wyatt                                             6

Dr. Fred French                                             13

Dr. Douglas Dunsmore                                        18

Mr. Randolph Edward Lieb                                    24

Mr. Leo Furey                                               34

Ms Katie Stein Sather                                       40

Dr. Jim Orr                                                 46

Mr. John Nicolle                                            50

Ms Jackie MacNab                                            53

Mr. Carl Powell                                             55

Ms Patricia Ploughman                                       62

Mr. Harry Brown                                             66

Ms Gisella Kumar                                            85

Mr. Frank Smith                                             89

Mr. Ken Pittman                                             93

Ms Neville Smith                                           106

Ms Martha Anne Woodworth                                   111

Mr. Frank O'Leary                                          115

Mr. Ali Chiasson                                           135

Mr. Richard Barnes                                         142

Mr. Chris Zimmer                                           147

Mr. John Birkelund                                         155

Ms Susan Knight                                            158





Presentation by / Présentation par:

Mr. Chris Brookes                                          171

Ms Edythe Goodridge                                        182

Ms Barbara Doran                                           187

Ms Noreen Golfman                                          192

Ms Madeleine Florent                                       202

Mr. George Smith                                           209

Ms Colette Fleming                                         217

Ms Joann Harris                                            219

Mr. Frank Holden                                           223

Mr. Paul Pope                                              228

Mr. Desmond McGrath                                        239

Dr. Bill Kennedy                                           249

Ms Joan Clark                                              260

Ms Lois Hicks                                              264

Ms Laura Jackson                                           269

Reply by / Réplique par:

Ms Dianne Humber                                       165/283



 1           St. John's, Newfoundland/Saint-Jean (Terre-Neuve)
 2     --- Upon commencing on Tuesday, March 16, 1999
 3         at 1300 / L'audience débute le mardi 16 mars
 4         1999 à 1300
 5  1                    THE CHAIRPERSON:  My name is David
 6     Colville.  I am the CRTC's Vice-Chair,
 7     Telecommunications and the Atlantic Region Commissioner
 8     for the CRTC.
 9  2                    We are here today to gather your
10     views and comments on CBC radio and television.  In
11     your opinion, how should the Canadian Broadcasting
12     Corporation fulfill its role in the coming years?
13  3                    CBC is a national public service
14     broadcasting in English as well as in French and it
15     plays an important role in the Canadian broadcasting
16     system.  Today, many elements are constantly being
17     added to the broadcasting system as new technologies
18     multiply, converge, open up new horizons and
19     increasingly offer new services.
20  4                    In this context, we want to know what
21     are your needs and expectations as viewers and
22     listeners of the CBC?  I should point out, CRTC, for
23     those who don't know what the acronym stands for, is
24     the Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications
25     Commission.


 1  5                    We regulate the various elements of
 2     the Canadian broadcasting system, radio stations,
 3     private and public, television stations, private and
 4     public, the cable television undertakings and
 5     direct-to-home satellite undertakings and the telephone
 6     companies.  So in this particular instance, we are
 7     particularly interested in your views as they relate to
 8     CBC radio and television.
 9  6                    We have decided to conduct this
10     wide-ranging public consultation to hear the views of
11     Canadians from one end of the country to the other, and
12     so between March 9th and 18th later this week, we have
13     been conducting hearings in -- well, it started last
14     week with Sydney and Winnipeg and various other cities
15     across the country.
16  7                    As I indicated, these consultations
17     are designed to give you a chance, on the eve of the
18     new millennium, to express your opinion on the CBC's
19     role, the programming it offers and the direction it
20     should take at the national, regional and local levels. 
21     Through these consultations, we hope to enter into an
22     open dialogue with you and to hear your concerns.
23  8                    Your comments will form part of the
24     public record which will be added to the record of the
25     public hearing on the CBC that will begin in Hull on


 1     May 25th.  At that upcoming hearing, the Commission
 2     will examine the CBC's application for the renewal of
 3     its licences, including radio, television and its
 4     specialty services, Newsworld and Réseau de
 5     l'information.
 6  9                    You can also take part in that public
 7     hearing by sending your written comments to the CRTC. 
 8     If you wish to do so, please refer to the specific
 9     licence renewals being examined when you file your
11  10                   Now coming back to today's
12     consultation, let me introduce the CRTC staff who will
13     be assisting us today:  our legal counsel, Karen
14     Moore -- they don't let us commissioners travel too far
15     from Ottawa without a lawyer with us; Nick Ketchum from
16     our Broadcasting Planning Service Branch in Ottawa; and
17     Brien Rodger who is the Regional Director of our
18     Halifax Regional Office.
19  11                   Please feel free to call on any of
20     them if you have any questions about the process or any
21     other matters related to this proceeding.
22  12                   So that you will all have an
23     opportunity to speak, we are going to ask you to please
24     limit your presentation to 10 minutes.  We can be a
25     little bit flexible on that but hope you would respect


 1     the others who are following behind you.
 2  13                   We have, I think, 30-some-odd people
 3     registered for this afternoon and another 20 or so for
 4     this evening.  So in order to be able to give an
 5     opportunity for everybody to be heard, I would ask you
 6     to respect the time limit.
 7  14                   I don't intend to pursue any detailed
 8     questioning of people in order to respect the time. 
 9     One thing we were able to do in Sydney, and I leave it
10     open to you as to whether you wish to stay after your
11     presentation has been done, is we were able to finish
12     early enough that we opened the meeting up to a bit of
13     a round table discussion after everybody had had an
14     opportunity to present their views and had
15     representatives from the CBC comment on the comments
16     that they had heard through the day and actually
17     participate a bit in that discussion as well.
18  15                   So we will be giving the CBC an
19     opportunity to respond.  We will just see how the time
20     goes towards the end of the session.  We are scheduled
21     to go from 1:00 until 5:00 and take a one-hour break
22     and then reconvene at 6:00.
23  16                   I hope I'm not embarrassing him but a
24     former part-time Commissioner, Bill Callahan is here. 
25     I would like to welcome the students from Lawrence


 1     College to our proceeding today.  I don't know whether
 2     any of you want to make a presentation or not.  Bill,
 3     welcome to our consultation and I welcome your students
 4     here as well.  I hope they find it interesting.
 5  17                   If anyone has any questions on
 6     anything else that the CRTC does, I would be happy to
 7     try and answer that later in the day.
 8  18                   So with that as opening comments, I
 9     will turn it over to Ms Moore to go over some of the
10     housekeeping matters and then we will open it up to
11     presentations.
12  19                   MS MOORE:  Thank you.
13  20                   I would first like to note that
14     translation headsets are available just outside the
15     hearing room in the hallway.
16  21                   I will be calling each person, and
17     when you come to the table to give your comments, if
18     you could please be sure to press the button on your
19     microphone so that your comments can be transcribed. 
20     Please be sure to turn it off at the end so we don't
21     have feedback.
22  22                   A transcript of this consultation
23     will form part of the public record relating to the
24     applications for licence renewal and they will be
25     available on the Commission's Web site approximately


 1     seven days after today.
 2  23                   We have comment forms that are
 3     available which you can fill out today and leave them
 4     with us and those will also be placed on the public
 5     file of this proceeding.
 6                                                        1315
 7  24                   With that, I would like to call our
 8     first speaker, Ms Dorothy Wyatt.
10  25                   MS WYATT:  Thank you, sir, and thank
11     you.  I do appreciate the opportunity to appear before
12     the CRTC panel because it indicates to me that there is
13     an opportunity for Canadians to be heard and you are
14     interested in the future and how the policies should be
15     modified or retained in the next number of years.
16  26                   I have two instances which concern me
17     and my family, and they are not isolated to these two
18     instances, but since I am the person involved and my
19     family -- my son George is behind me.  He came home
20     from Mississauga to be present while I express these
22  27                   The two issues:  one, a number of
23     years ago, I had a cardiac arrest in the hospital at
24     St. Clare's and I was in the Coronary Care Unit.  My
25     daughter was there with me for several days.  She went


 1     home to get a shower and on the phone was CBC Newsroom
 2     wanting to know something about me.  I thought
 3     everybody knew everything about me, but for my
 4     obituary, this was.
 5  28                   You can understand that whether you
 6     have a journalistic policy or not, this to me was most
 7     upsetting to my family and to me.  Now, I would like
 8     the policy changed so that that does not occur.  That
 9     is one instance.
10  29                   The other was an instance which
11     occurred on the 2nd of November.  I was called by Jim
12     Brown who was doing a report which would be aired on a
13     program called "Here and Now" and I agreed.  It was
14     discussed that we would be discussing the Civic Centre. 
15     The Civic Centre was sort of hot news then, very
16     current.
17  30                   It was current for several weeks
18     because I had been advocating a hearing, a referendum. 
19     The news would last longer here than it would in
20     Toronto.  That would last about one issue.  But this
21     went on and on and I wanted to discuss that.
22  31                   I understood -- I do have a hearing
23     problem but I understood that was what the hearing was
24     about, the interview.  Then what happened was, when
25     they came, we were discussing a number of things and I


 1     should say that I had just gotten out of hospital where
 2     I had a broken hip and I had a few other physical
 3     things wrong.
 4  32                   But anyway, in the discussion, I was
 5     not watching the red light.  I noticed that sometimes
 6     the questions were repeated.  So I didn't know whether
 7     it was still talk, chat or whether it was being taped. 
 8     I was not very happy with the questions.
 9  33                   One of the questions was:  Did you
10     have a drinking problem 20 years ago?  I said, one day,
11     I didn't have any lunch, I didn't have any dinner, and
12     I had a drink.  I went to a meeting.  I hadn't eaten at
13     all.  You might say that I had a bit of a problem, but
14     I said, that is one day.  Anyway, this went on for two
15     and a half hours.
16  34                   I watched it that night -- about a
17     four-minute clipping.  It didn't say one positive thing
18     that I had done for the city.  Now I was elected seven
19     times.  I was eight years Mayor and the rest of the
20     time as a City Councillor.  I was the first woman
21     elected.  I was the first woman elected as a Councillor
22     and as a Mayor and the longest-serving Councillor in
23     the history of St. John's and the longest-serving woman
24     in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador.  I have
25     been honoured for these events.


 1  35                   Now, to continue on, I didn't tape
 2     it.  When I saw this, my family was disturbed and a
 3     number of people on the feedback indicated that they
 4     were disturbed.  They gave reasons.  In the paper,
 5     there were letters.  So I asked for an apology.  I
 6     asked them, and there was a John Furlong(ph) who
 7     produced the program.  I have known John for the 30
 8     years that I have been associated with Council.  It
 9     really bothered me that he couldn't find anything good
10     to say about me except that I had a drinking problem
11     that day.  There is no doubt about it.  It was captured
12     on tape.  So I complained.
13  36                   I was told that it was journalistic
14     policy -- I am very familiar with policy.  One of our
15     jobs at City Council is to make policy.  If it doesn't
16     work, we change it.  We amend it.  But anyway, I was
17     told that because I answered the questions -- and
18     honest to God, the reason I answered the question is
19     because if I didn't, they would say, she's guilty. 
20     She's guilty; she didn't answer.  She has something to
21     hide.  I had nothing to hide.  I was so used to -- with
22     a slogan like "Vote for Wyatt, she won't be quiet" -- I
23     was so used to answering questions that I did not
24     refrain.
25  37                   Now the response I got to my


 1     questions -- I am trying to be brief -- is that why
 2     would I say at the end of the interview where Jim Brown
 3     said thank you very much and I said, you're welcome. 
 4     Do you know the reply I got from CBC?  Just because I
 5     said you're welcome, I was delighted with the
 6     interview, that I was satisfied, and therefore, I was
 7     giving my commitment.
 8  38                   Now that is not accountability.  I
 9     wrote the CRTC and I must say that the CRTC responded
10     very effectively and guided me to the direction I
11     should go because I thought I am going to start at the
12     top.  To me, the basic thing here is this -- is yellow
13     journalism.  This is what you would see this fellow
14     Stern do.  If you want to be sensational, this is the
15     wrong way to do it, I'm trying to say.
16  39                   I don't mind criticism but I love
17     playing on a level field, which is a bit trite I
18     suppose to say that, but on the other hand, CBC appears
19     to have its own agenda.  There is no feeling or I am
20     not getting the sensation that this is responsibility.
21  40                   The reply I got was we have our
22     policy but nowhere did it indicate that I as a person
23     who pays taxes to subsidize this public station has any
24     rights.  So therefore, I am going to leave that.  When
25     I related that you're welcome, every talk show, when


 1     the people call in, the host usually says thanks and
 2     somebody says you're welcome.  That is really
 3     stretching the point.  That's like saying, have a nice
 4     day.  You take a supermarket girl at the check-out and
 5     somebody has $300 worth of groceries.  At the end of it
 6     all, she is hoping she didn't make a mistake and she is
 7     saying, have a nice day because she is told to say
 8     that.  Well anyway, I want an apology.  I want CBC to
 9     program its concerns that would respect people's lives
10     that if they want --
11  41                   I have had lots of criticism -- I
12     don't mind it a bit -- and probably not half as much as
13     I deserve, but most of the time they catch you when
14     you're out.  You see I don't think I am getting a very
15     good investment for the taxes I pay, and I have been
16     paying them for a long time.  With that, I do want an
17     apology.  I don't think you can rest on journalistic
18     policy that has no dimension of a human being in it.
19  42                   I am a nurse.  I am used to dealing
20     with people when they are at their worst, when they are
21     sick, and there is no feeling in there.  I don't want
22     any special treatment but other people I know -- and
23     there is a whole raft here of people who complain and I
24     didn't ask them to complain.  There are people now who
25     refuse to go on that program and that is unfortunate


 1     because CBC has not had that in total.
 2  43                   Sitting next to me is Harry Brown
 3     from St. John's, Newfoundland, who has a very
 4     distinguished notable career -- see you later about
 5     that -- and we are all very proud of him.  This is not
 6     the total image of the CBC but on behalf of all the
 7     people who don't know where to start, I just would say,
 8     as we say in Newfonese, "Will you knock that off, my
 9     son, and stop going on like that?"
10  44                   In the meantime, I thank you for
11     listening and have a good day.
12  45                   THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
13     much, Ms Wyatt.
14  46                   MS WYATT:  I'm sorry.  Unless you
15     have questions, I have two meetings at City Hall and
16     I'm afraid they are going to spend all the money before
17     I get there.
18  47                   THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  We will let
19     you go to save the town some money.
20  48                   MS WYATT:  Does anybody have a
21     question?
22  49                   THE CHAIRPERSON:  No, we don't have
23     any questions.  Thanks again.
24  50                   MS WYATT:  Thank you very much.
25  51                   THE CHAIRPERSON:  We will take that


 1     thank you in the spirit that it was intended.  It
 2     doesn't mean that she approves of the CRTC.
 3  52                   Next presenter.
 4                                                        1323
 5  53                   MS MOORE:  I would like to call
 6     Dr. Fred French please.
 8  54                   DR. FRENCH:  I am a physician in
 9     rural Canada and for a physician, of course, the
10     acronym "rural" stands for Remuneration Usually
11     Ridiculous and Laughable.
12     --- Laughter / Rires
13  55                   I live in the middle of Gros Morne
14     National Park, the one that a CBC program described as
15     being named after Brian Mulroney because
16     Newfoundlanders loved him so much.  Only, they
17     pronounced it "Gros Moron" Park.
18  56                   I presume I am one of these odd
19     people -- you mentioned there were 30-odd people here
20     in your introduction; there were 30-some-odd -- who
21     feels that the CBC is wonderful.  We are allowed to say
22     good things here today too, are we?
23  57                   THE CHAIRPERSON:  Most of what we
24     have been hearing so far is good things about the CBC.
25  58                   DR. FRENCH:  Okay.  Well of course,


 1     you can rest assured there is going to be a "but" at
 2     the end of the sentence, but still, I do think CBC is
 3     wonderful.  In my life, CBC plays a big part and I
 4     would be very lost if it ceased to exist.  But it can
 5     improve.
 6  59                   It is involved in too many areas, in
 7     my opinion, and when cutbacks happen to something that
 8     is spread too widely, then it becomes spread too
 9     thinly.  The result is that it does lots of things well
10     but not as well as it could and should, in my opinion.
11  60                   Now, I didn't come an eight-hour
12     drive to discuss the quality or the Canadian content. 
13     My concerns are more pertinent, however -- yes, I think
14     more basic than that.  The quality of the program and
15     the amount of Canadian content it has is totally
16     irrelevant if you can't hear it, if you can't access
17     it.
18  61                   I feel quite strongly that one of the
19     main cohesive forces, other than rural medicine, that
20     holds Canada together is a truly national radio program
21     and radio station.  I will be very brief actually today
22     -- well of course, anybody who knows me knows that is
23     not true.
24  62                   The main two areas of deep concern
25     that I have are:  number one, that I cannot get Radio


 1     Two.  You cannot get it in much of rural Canada and I
 2     am sick of hearing it advertised, quite frankly.
 3  63                   I would like you to put some kind of
 4     an editing on there whereby if you can't get it you
 5     don't hear about it because it is most annoying to keep
 6     hearing about this and particularly all night long
 7     listen to Radio Luxembourg or Radio Denmark and so on. 
 8     You can't do it in much of rural Canada.
 9  64                   I brought this up with the -- and I
10     don't know names like Dorothy does -- but I brought it
11     up to the Regional Director here in St. John's, the top
12     doggie whoever that is, several years ago, and I was
13     told that it was under consideration and that they
14     would be doing something about it, but because it was
15     sort of in the works at that time, he asked if he could
16     wait a couple of months and get back to me about it. 
17     Well, I'm not too sure which century he is going to get
18     back to me but I haven't heard yet.
19  65                   I think this is particularly
20     important to be able to access the services right
21     across Canada.  The second area is not only do we have
22     a problem with accessing Radio Two in many parts of
23     rural Canada but there are places you can't access
24     Radio One either.  I think it is distressing that
25     cutbacks and things have caused, I presume,


 1     transmitters to be decreased in power and so on, such
 2     that you cannot drive across Newfoundland from here to
 3     Port-aux-Basques and have continuous CBC available to
 4     you.
 5  66                   You lose it in many places and one of
 6     the most amazing to me is how you lose it so near a
 7     reasonably sized community as Springdale.  You cannot
 8     listen to it between Deer Lake and Grand Falls, no
 9     matter how good -- well, I suppose maybe depending on
10     the radio receiver, but on the average radio receiver,
11     you just do not get it.
12  67                   I would like to suggest that as far
13     as we are concerned with the CBC, we ought to fund it
14     or curtail it so that it can do a good job in the areas
15     that it has enough money to run.  I am not just
16     presenting a problem, I have the solution too.
17  68                   In my view, the solution is for the
18     CBC to get out of television 100 per cent.  There is
19     absolutely no value in my mind in the CBC being
20     involved in television and competing with the
21     commercial broadcast stations across Canada when it
22     can't even give us radio in rural Newfoundland.
23  69                   I am not against the programs.  I
24     think there are some very definitely advantageous
25     programs on television that CBC produces, but I think


 1     an arrangement should be made if necessary to try and
 2     have them covered by other channels who have not --
 3     other people's licences oblige them to use some CBC.  I
 4     don't care how you do it but give the CBC enough money
 5     to do what it can do and stop trying to do too many
 6     things.
 7  70                   Thank you.
 8  71                   THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
 9     Mr. French.
10  72                   Just a quick question:  When you
11     mention that they should get out of television and
12     television is largely competing with private stations,
13     would you make the same comment if CBC didn't have
14     commercial advertising on television?
15  73                   DR. FRENCH:  I am not concerned about
16     the competition.  I make the comment only because of
17     the lack of funding.  If you could afford to do both --
18     and I have no objection to doing both --
19  74                   THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.
20  75                   DR. FRENCH:  But if you can't give me
21     radio, don't give me TV.
22  76                   THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  Thank you.
23  77                   Thanks again for your presentation.
24  78                   Ms Moore.
25                                                        1329


 1  79                   MS MOORE:  I would like to call
 2     Dr. Douglas Dunsmore from the Memorial University
 3     School of Music please.
 5  80                   DR. DUNSMORE:  I am a choral
 6     conductor and musician and I do not represent Memorial
 7     University officially just in case anyone is out there
 8     listening.  I represent musicians and makers of music
 9     in the province through my own ideas.
10  81                   Approximately two weeks ago, I was
11     asked whether I might have anything relevant to say
12     about CBC.  I replied in the positive and here I am.
13  82                   So let me begin by saying that for me
14     and many of my friends and colleagues, CBC has always
15     been a beloved and special organization.  Ever since I
16     arrived here in 1979 as a CFA -- that's Come From Away,
17     for those of you who don't know the lingo -- CBC has
18     played a very large role in an area that is not only
19     near and dear to me but basically is my life, and that
20     is music.
21  83                   By comparison of my experience in my
22     originating province, Saskatchewan, and the experiences
23     of colleagues in other provinces, we here in
24     Newfoundland and Labrador are very fortunate because
25     there are opportunities to have the results of our


 1     work, that is, performances, concerts, et cetera,
 2     broadcast locally, sometimes even nationally.
 3  84                   The CBC radio network here has always
 4     been consistent in a policy to record a vast array of
 5     music-making for the enjoyment and sometimes even the
 6     education of local listeners.  The practice used to be
 7     supported, although to a somewhat lesser extent, by CBC
 8     television in earlier versions through the broadcasts
 9     of various performance projects.  This tapered off to
10     almost nil in the nineties.
11  85                   However, even amid the cutbacks, CBC
12     St. John's still records and airs more music of various
13     cultures than anywhere else I am aware of.  Producer
14     Francesca Swann(ph) is quick to pick up as many
15     worthwhile live performances as her budgets will allow
16     and the Corporation, through her and her office, has
17     also been very generous to help any and all choirs with
18     things like the taping for the CBC amateur choral
19     competitions, a great help indeed.  So a great big
20     bouquet goes to CBC for its support of live music in
21     many forums, especially here.
22  86                   Having said that, there are areas
23     that still need work, areas that regional producers and
24     coordinators probably cannot control.  From the point
25     of view of musicians in the community, it seems almost


 1     impossible to regularly mount large musical
 2     productions, especially for television, because of the
 3     cutbacks, but even the radio broadcasts that we make
 4     are woefully underfunded.
 5  87                   For example, compare the rates that
 6     are paid for a professional programming of a Canadian
 7     content to any other profession you know of.  Musicians
 8     are given somewhere in the neighbourhood of $130.00 for
 9     a half-recital.  How does that compare to billable
10     hours with any other profession?  Now, half a recital
11     represents more than 30 minutes of air time.  It
12     represents hours of preparation, not to mention various
13     experiences that have been acquired by the
14     professionals over a period of years, allowing them to
15     create at a high level.
16  88                   To be reimbursed at the rate I
17     mentioned above is almost ludicrous.  For example, try
18     to get a legal firm or a petroleum engineering company
19     to come up with a project that requires a half-hour
20     public presentation and see what it might cost to do.
21  89                   Do not misunderstand me.  When push
22     comes to shove, musicians will often opt to get music
23     on the airwaves for what amounts to honoraria and we
24     have been doing that here for years.  But that does not
25     begin to approach what needs to be spent to really


 1     develop performances and all the underpinnings that go
 2     along with that in the community and cultivate growth.
 3  90                   Let's not pretend that CBC is paying
 4     large amounts of money for Canadian content, at least
 5     in this area, because that is not the case in most
 6     instances.  In fact, the system here works regionally
 7     because everyone involved agrees to cooperate and make
 8     it work with very little funding, and bouquets are
 9     deserved on both sides for that, I believe.
10  91                   On the other hand, some of us wonder
11     how much money is spent buying broadcasts.  For
12     example, how much does it cost to purchase concerts
13     from the European networks to fill large segments of
14     programs like a choral concert?  Is it cheaper than
15     what the Corporation currently spends for a live
16     production here in Newfoundland?  I am curious.  I am
17     also curious to know if other provinces have like
18     scenarios in which locally musicians perform for
19     honoraria.  My suspicion is probably not.
20  92                   But my main point is this:  the
21     region here is doing a very good job with very little. 
22     Give them the funding to be able to do more.  Many good
23     things are accomplished here but sooner or later, we
24     need to be able to look for growth.
25  93                   In partial summation and on another


 1     topic, I would like to touch on one or two points
 2     regarding Radio One in general.  For years, the CBC has
 3     enjoyed the well-earned reputation of being a unifying
 4     force in Canada.  In particular, mornings have been
 5     times when people in the kitchens of Canada can become
 6     educated and even share in the life of Canadians
 7     elsewhere, thus beginning to understand more about each
 8     other.
 9  94                   However, just last week, I heard
10     folks on the air telling us that programming must
11     change because CBC is trying to attack -- attract the
12     younger listeners -- not attack them.  Is that why CBC
13     local radio is turning to the seemingly endless drivel
14     of talk shows?  Is that why music producers are
15     choosing more and more mainstream musical choices for
16     their musical interludes, et cetera?  Surely in Canada
17     we have hundreds of commercial stations out in that
18     market already.
19  95                   Is it really the desire to draw in
20     young listeners that takes us in these paths or is it
21     actually the lack of funds to do some of the
22     interesting things that we hear so seldom any more,
23     those inter-studio remotes that simultaneously link
24     groups from all parts of the country doing various
25     legitimate, often musical or drama happenings and


 1     sometimes off-the-wall things that were so entertaining
 2     and so unifying and so radio?  I have been told
 3     recently that these are very expensive to coordinate
 4     and produce.
 5  96                   Well then, do we invest less in these
 6     items and less on research and opt locally instead of
 7     going towards the somewhat smarmy attitude that we
 8     often find in talk show radio and some other local
 9     features?  Do we do that because that is what the
10     lion's share of the listeners want or do we do it
11     because it is easier and cheaper?  I suspect the
12     latter.
13  97                   Some say, if we don't have enough
14     funding to fulfill the mandate to do more of the
15     expensive things, perhaps CBC should privatize if that
16     would provide money for quality.  But somehow I am not
17     optimistic about that.  Instead of aiming for quality
18     productions, we would likely see profit margins
19     wielding the axe this time.
20  98                   So please try to channel more money
21     into production of quality programming in the regions
22     because many of us believe that this is where the
23     strength of CBC still lies.  Aim for quality and less
24     commercial radio imitation on the national scope as
25     well.  The feeling exists that cuts have already had


 1     negative effects on the quality of the Corporation's
 2     product and further cost-cutting can only make things
 3     worst.
 4  99                   Good intentions and goodwill aside,
 5     the patient appears to need substantial transfusions of
 6     money if it is to revive, let alone flourish.
 7  100                  Thank you for the opportunity to
 8     speak to you.
 9  101                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
10     Dr. Dunsmore.
11                                                        1337
12  102                  MS MOORE:  Our next presenter is
13     Mr. Randolph Edward Lieb.
15  103                  MR. LIEB:  I thought I should first
16     of all mention that I came to Canada 40 years ago and I
17     felt at that time that in asking to be committed into
18     Canada, I took upon myself an obligation to adapt to
19     this country, to its values, its customs and so on.  I
20     mean I am not a German in exile.  I came here to become
21     a Canadian.
22  104                  I have never been back to the country
23     of my birth in all these years.  I am the father of
24     nine children, of which eight were born in Newfoundland
25     and they were encouraged to think of themselves as


 1     Newfoundlanders, not Canadians.
 2  105                  I should say that my perspective of
 3     the CBC is from perhaps a somewhat different angle in
 4     that I am a painter and I am a writer with modest
 5     success.  I am also a retired fisherman and a bona fide
 6     fisherman.  I make very good saltfish, et cetera, et
 7     cetera.
 8  106                  Lastly, I am the manorial Lord of
 9     Warmsworth which is a small village over in England.  I
10     must send CDs over there and get involved in -- so
11     there are various perspectives.
12  107                  My comments have to do mostly with
13     CBC Radio Two.  I am troubled by what is going on.  I
14     believe that the heyday of course of CBC arrogance is
15     over.  I mean I can remember when I wrote some
16     criticism of some program and a certain producer wrote
17     back to me, if you don't like the CBC, go to the
18     private station.
19  108                  I also remember Sheila Rogers really
20     giving diatribes against Prime Minister Margaret
21     Thatcher regularly.  If she would have done it against
22     anybody else, let's say Mobuto, they were in trouble. 
23     I remember Mr. Ferguson regularly disparaging the
24     English.  If he would have done it about the
25     Yakouts(ph) or something like that, I -- okay, these


 1     things are over now.
 2  109                  But my feeling is from listening very
 3     carefully that the CBC -- now, I am talking mainly
 4     about Radio Two.  This is what I have been listening to
 5     for the last 20 years.  It is sort of floundering.  My
 6     comments are designed not to criticize, not to demand,
 7     not to make anybody feel more bad than they already do
 8     but perhaps -- well, I am arrogant enough to think that
 9     perhaps I can offer a certain constructive comment.
10  110                  The problem that I see with Radio Two
11     is essentially that it has always been committed to
12     something that I see or I would call the official
13     reality.  Now if you think about the Soviet Union, you
14     know that there was an official reality controlled by
15     the Party and that is what you got while the unofficial
16     reality was of course how the people lived, how they
17     saw their society, how they saw their environment and
18     their political system.
19  111                  Now obviously, we don't have in
20     Canada a political official reality but what we have in
21     Canada is a universal system which keeps on churning
22     out graduates, professionals which are surplus to our
23     needs.  In order to make a living, they have to create
24     an official reality which provides employment for them,
25     which sort of serves their ends.  I don't blame them. 


 1     This is their interest.  But it seems to me that CBC
 2     Radio Two was far too much committed to that official
 3     reality and totally ignored the unofficial reality that
 4     I know, as for instance a fisherman.
 5  112                  Now, I wrote a long thing here and I
 6     have to skip some of it for time reasons.  I will just
 7     speak about a couple of things and that is national
 8     unity and Canadian culture.
 9  113                  On the national unity, what is the
10     official reality that I get from the CBC?  Essentially,
11     that Lucien Bouchard is a doubtful character and that
12     separatists sort of, in general, they are disturbed,
13     whatever else, you know.  They are a little bit hard
14     people.  Any reasonable Quebecer has to be a
15     federalist.  It seems obvious from our perspective.
16  114                  Well, what I saw was when I first
17     came to Canada I had fellow workers from Quebec.  They
18     were constantly insulted.  I worked in Ontario.  They
19     were called "pea soup"; they were called "frogs",
20     whatever else.  And so in listening -- Canada was new
21     to me.  I was trying to understand the country.  The
22     image that I got is that French Quebecers were some
23     strange lot, about 50,000 of them around Quebec City,
24     who had lots of children, bred like rabbits, were very
25     superstitious, and that was it.


 1  115                  Now, this is on a shop level
 2     conversation but in the early 1960s I read an article
 3     by a lady in Hamilton.  This was in "The Star Weekly"
 4     -- this is a national -- you remember "The Star
 5     Weekly".  It was a national thing.  This lady exactly
 6     held the same sort of language.
 7  116                  What she wrote was that all
 8     French-Canadian women hate their men because in Quebec
 9     civil law they have fewer rights than a man, that
10     therefore -- now, we are talking about the 1960s --
11     that therefore, French-Canadian women have lots of
12     children to mire their own husbands and sons in
13     poverty, which is kind of shocking to my mind.  I
14     thought even then it was shocking.  This was in the
15     early 60s.
16  117                  In the mid-60s, I worked in Montreal. 
17     I drove a sports car.  I had a mustache which -- God
18     knows why I had it.  In those days, you know, any
19     lovely old lady came up to you and said, why don't you
20     shave off this thing?  But the French Canadians at the
21     time had mustaches.
22  118                  When it came to rural Ontario,
23     fellows were yelling at me -- these were the anglos --
24     you know, this and that Frenchman.  I won't give all
25     the words.  A couple of times, beer bottles were thrown


 1     at me and so on.
 2  119                  In the late 1960s, I worked in the
 3     eastern townships in a plant.  The office was English. 
 4     The plant was French -- French workers.  The foreman
 5     had to speak English to the French workers.  Not only
 6     that, the French workers had a social club.
 7  120                  At one time, the president of the
 8     social club put up a notice about an upcoming dance on
 9     the bulletin board that was provided for the use of the
10     workers.  Immediately, this notice was removed.  The
11     management put up a notice:  "No French will be
12     tolerated on this bulletin board."  Now, we are talking
13     about 1966-1967.  The separatist business and FLQ
14     already had started.
15  121                  In 1971, I was somewhere in B.C.  It
16     doesn't even matter.  I was talking to a lovely lady. 
17     Now, she was an educated lady.  Her son had a job with
18     the government in Ottawa.  Well, she was actually
19     crying with rage because some gas station attendant had
20     spoken to her in French in Quebec.
21  122                  Now, when you add all this up --
22     there is the singer Félix Leclerc who sang about that,
23     how he became a separatist, a nationalist after having
24     been insulted so many times all across Canada.  But
25     nothing of this I have ever seen reflected in the CBC


 1     and I have been listening for 20 years now to these
 2     problems.
 3  123                  I also have never heard anything
 4     about the Channel Islands over in Britain, which are
 5     culturally, geographically, et cetera, ethnically
 6     French, which were loyal to the Crown for 800 years
 7     because they had some kind of status that approached a
 8     sovereignty association which, to my mind, is a
 9     solution.
10  124                  Now, the interpretation that I take
11     is that national unity is a great industry.  The
12     government loses a lot of money to do something or
13     other for national unity.  If we had national unity, if
14     Quebec would get this form of sovereignty association,
15     whatever, well some people would be left high and dry. 
16     Okay, this is national unity.
17  125                  Canadian culture:  Now again, what is
18     the official reality?  The official reality is that
19     Canadian culture is something that is supposed to unite
20     Canada, give us a certain sense of identity, help us
21     withstand perhaps American mass culture -- it's always
22     Canadian culture and American mass culture.  Even
23     there, it is an implied thing that Canadian culture is
24     not for the masses.
25  126                  Anyway, the unofficial reality that I


 1     want to talk about is that I heard over CBC Radio Two a
 2     great defense of such great achievements of Canadian
 3     culture as a crucifix put in a jar of urine, as a dance
 4     that consists of people sitting on chairs yelling
 5     obscenities at each other and then the dance goes to
 6     pan a little bit -- I heard this on CBC.  You know,
 7     this is Canadian art.  Somebody stood up and urinated
 8     in a container on full-front stage.  There is of course
 9     the alarm clock and the lobster covered with 2000 coats
10     of white paint and there was unfortunately an
11     18-foot-high statue that everybody saw as a vagina.
12  127                  Now, the way that I heard it defended
13     over the CBC was that any criticism of these items was
14     an attack on artistic freedom.  It wasn't.  The issue
15     was not that people shouldn't have the right to do what
16     they wanted.  The issue was that all these things were
17     founded by various government agencies.
18  128                  The point here is:  Now first of all,
19     do you really think you convert a Quebec separatist
20     with a crucifix in a jar full of piss?  I mean it is
21     absolutely ludicrous.  What does this do for unity?
22  129                  But it goes a lot further when you
23     think about it.  What if it would have been a
24     Newfoundland housewife who would have first thought of
25     putting a crucifix in that jar full of urine?  The


 1     reaction would immediately have been -- from the
 2     professionals, you know -- send her to a psychiatrist,
 3     her clergyman, whatever else.
 4  130                  Would the CBC have come up and
 5     defended her and said, this is a great work of art?  Of
 6     course not because she is an unofficial reality.  I
 7     mean she is crazy.
 8  131                  Or take a mechanic who puts up an
 9     18-foot-high thing in front of his house that looks
10     like a vagina.  He is prosecuted and he is told to
11     remove this bloody nuisance.  Would CBC defend him? 
12     No, because he is not one of the right guys.  He is the
13     unofficial reality; he is not the official reality.
14  132                  But this goes a lot further.  Perhaps
15     the best example -- I would like to say that I am
16     telescoping a few things here -- is this painting that
17     was bought for $1.8 million by the National Gallery. 
18     This, from what I heard over CBC, consists of three
19     stripes.
20  133                  Now, in defence of this painting, the
21     CBC said, a lot of thought went into this.  Well, it's
22     wonderful, you know.  Perhaps a Newfoundland fisherman
23     would put a lot of thought in there too, you know, in
24     three stripes on a board of plywood or maybe from his
25     lobster stage.  He just might take a board off it that


 1     is splattered from years of painting lobster buoys or
 2     something like that.  Would the CBC argue it is worth
 3     $1.8 million?  No.
 4  134                  What I am getting at here is the CBC
 5     is totally committed to the official reality of the
 6     professionals.  If you are the right kind of person,
 7     then you should get the money for whatever you do,
 8     again, the crucifix in a jar, whatever it is, because
 9     you presumably think the right thoughts while you are
10     doing it.
11  135                  Well, the next logical step, of
12     course, would be that you hang up empty frames in the
13     National Gallery for which $20,000 is paid or $80,000
14     is paid because the person has the right kind of
15     university degrees and references and he thought of all
16     these wonderful things in a frame.  Now again, I am not
17     knocking the person.  If he can get away with it,
18     hurray for him, but essentially what you are doing, you
19     are shoving all the ordinary people out.
20  136                  To a fisherman, to a cab driver,
21     three stripes of paint are three stripes of paint and
22     anybody who pays $1.8 million for it is crazy or else
23     is wasting government money.  So how can this work
24     toward unity?  This is what I cannot see.
25  137                  My point is simply that -- I don't


 1     know how this Commission handles these things but the
 2     CBC should be instructed or suggested or whatever else
 3     to present both realities.  You know, I am taking a bit
 4     of an extreme point because I feel the other reality
 5     has been overrepresented.  I am standing here for the
 6     unofficial reality.
 7  138                  Now, the truth like in anything is
 8     somewhere in the middle, but you have to present both
 9     realities to come to a proper picture of Canada that
10     most Canadians can share.  If you exclude -- well
11     anyway, I won't repeat myself.  I think I made my
12     point.
13  139                  Thank you very much everybody.
14  140                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
15     Mr. Lieb.  I think you have made your point.
16  141                  Ms Moore.
17                                                        1350
18  142                  MS MOORE:  I would like to call
19     Mr. Leo Furey please.
21  143                  MR. FUREY:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
22  144                  I have the privilege today to
23     represent the Newfoundland and Labrador Film
24     Development Corporation.  It is a Crown provincial
25     agency.  The mandate of the Film Corporation is to


 1     foster and promote the development and growth of the
 2     film industry, the video industry in Newfoundland and
 3     Labrador, and to increase the national and
 4     international visibility of Newfoundland and Labrador
 5     as an on-site location for filming.
 6  145                  In 1997, the province established the
 7     NFLDC to stimulate investment and employment in the
 8     province's film industry.  At that time, the film
 9     industry was valued at $2 million of production
10     activity.  In the fiscal year ending 97-98, production
11     activity was almost $10 million.
12  146                  To further the growth of our
13     industry, in January of this year, the province
14     instituted a 40 per cent labour-based film tax credit. 
15     This program is administered by our Corporation and is
16     already having a very significant impact on the growth
17     of the industry.  We have every reason to expect that
18     Newfoundland and Labrador will increase its film and
19     video production and will experience the same growth as
20     the other provinces who have implemented successful
21     tools such as equity funds and tax credits.
22  147                  Now traditionally, the CBC has been a
23     very strong supporter of Newfoundland's independent
24     producers.  Prior to the recent regionalization policy,
25     the local CBC played a very important role in


 1     triggering broadcast licences and rendering access to
 2     prime time viewing.
 3  148                  Mr. Chairman, since the
 4     implementation of this regionalization policy, there
 5     has been a radical change.  The local independent
 6     production community in this province faces the
 7     continuous challenge of trying to gain access to
 8     decision-makers in order to obtain broadcast licences
 9     which are essential to trigger other funding.
10  149                  In the past, competition for limited
11     licences was provincial.  Currently, local producers
12     must compete nationally.  If independent producers
13     outside central Canada -- read Toronto -- are to
14     continue to tell local stories to local audiences, the
15     CBC must review its regionalization policy, a policy
16     that restricts access to Newfoundlanders on two fronts: 
17     one, geographically, and two, artistically.
18  150                  For example, many of the concerns in
19     the Maritime region are not necessarily the same
20     concerns Newfoundland writers, actors, performers,
21     fishermen, truck drivers, homemakers, et cetera, have.
22  151                  In conclusion, Mr. Chairman, the
23     NFLDC makes great efforts to connect broadcasters and
24     independent producers in Newfoundland in order to
25     create conditions and environments which will promote


 1     and advance our people in the direction of art and
 2     wisdom.  We will continue to build these bridges and
 3     this Corporation will continue to play its role in
 4     creating stronger relationships between the local
 5     community and the CBC.
 6  152                  Thank you.
 7  153                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
 8     Mr. Furey.  You didn't use up much of your time, so let
 9     me ask you a question just of clarification here.
10  154                  I am somewhat familiar with these
11     issues because I was involved in getting the Nova
12     Scotia Film Development Corporation started about 10
13     years ago.  I heard stories for years about the $500
14     cup of coffee which, I guess, has become about $1,000
15     now, for people going to Toronto to cool their heels,
16     trying to get a broadcast licence, whether it was with
17     the CBC or private broadcasters.
18  155                  When you talk about the issue for the
19     producers here in Newfoundland, and you mentioned early
20     in your presentation about getting programs on prime
21     time, from the perspective of the producers here, is it
22     more important -- and just helping me understand your
23     concern about this regionalization policy of the CBC --
24     is it more important, do you think, for those
25     productions to get on the network or to be aired


 1     locally or regionally?
 2  156                  MR. FUREY:  Well if I understand your
 3     question, I think both.  The quintessence of the
 4     problem is this.  Decision-making right now occurs
 5     essentially out of the Toronto head office.
 6  157                  If I have a Newfoundland story and a
 7     Newfoundland producer or some Atlantic producers or
 8     even a New Zealand producer who wants to do this story,
 9     I am totally controlled as a producer, and I will let
10     the many producers here today -- and I'm sure through
11     NIFCO and PAN(ph) and the various organizations
12     locally, they will speak to this as well.
13  158                  But I can't just go over to the local
14     CBC office and engage a dialogue with that person that
15     is a celebratory dialogue that asks that the issues
16     that have defined us as a people in this province be
17     aired either through a docudrama medium or through a
18     fictional medium.  I have to go to essentially central
19     Canada.  I have the same problem the fisherman has
20     going to Ottawa about his fish.  The same problem with
21     culture.
22  159                  The CRTC can change this.  They can
23     make a very, very important move in that direction so
24     that -- I am a producer.  I can go across the street to
25     the local CBC office who understands my history, my


 1     culture, my art, my people, and essentially helps me to
 2     deliver to the national and the international as well
 3     as the local screen my story.  Right now, Newfoundland
 4     is at a considerable disability.  Regionalization has
 5     indeed created cultural marginalization and it has
 6     turned out to be somewhat of a nightmare.
 7  160                  We have, as you know, the richest
 8     history on this continent and if somebody in Toronto
 9     decides that I can put my Newfoundland story on the
10     national screen if I revamp 40 per cent of the script
11     and that 40 per cent of the script will be rewritten by
12     four people who are living in downtown Toronto and have
13     never been outside that particular environment, it is
14     highly unlikely that that story is going to look like a
15     Newfoundland story by the time it hits the screen.
16  161                  It is being rewritten into oblivion
17     so that I can get some dough to make a living and that
18     supersedes at that point the whole purpose of art and
19     essentially wisdom, which ties into nationalism.
20  162                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  So I take it you
21     would like to see some of that decision-making
22     decentralized?
23  163                  MR. FUREY:  All of it.
24  164                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.  All right. 
25     Thank you very much.


 1     --- Applause / Applaudissements
 2  165                  MS MOORE:  Our next presenter will be
 3     Ms Ann Bell please.
 4  166                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Is Ann Bell here?
 5  167                  We will call through the names after
 6     we go through everybody if some people show up late.
 7                                                        1359
 8  168                  MS MOORE:  Is Ms Katie Stein Sather
 9     here?
10  169                  MS SATHER:  Yes, I am.
11  170                  MS MOORE:  Please go ahead.
13  171                  MS SATHER:  I wanted to address
14     specifically the question:  Is there a special role
15     that the CBC should play in the presentation of
16     Canadian programming?  If so, what should this role be?
17  172                  When I moved to Canada 25 years ago,
18     this month actually, CBC and Pierre Berton's books were
19     how I learned about Canada.  I personally believe that
20     this is one of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation's
21     major mandates:  to portray Canada to Canadians, to
22     tell us about ourselves.
23  173                  It is impossible to know firsthand
24     what is happening across the country or around the
25     world.  That is what news and information channels and


 1     shows are all about, quite explicitly.  This is also
 2     what arts and entertainment shows and channels are
 3     about as well.  They reflect in narrative and
 4     representational form who and what and how we are as a
 5     people.
 6  174                  The CBC is our tribal storyteller. 
 7     If our storyteller does not tell us who we are, we will
 8     not know for we will be left in a vacuum only looking
 9     around us immediately.
10  175                  CBC radio was my constant companion
11     for a long while until I got busy enough that I
12     couldn't get any work done because it was too
13     interesting.  But every once in a while, I did have the
14     opportunity to listen again for longer than the early
15     morning local broadcast, if you call Edmonton news
16     local when I lived 100 miles away.
17  176                  Two years ago, I was in the process
18     of painting my house so we could sell it and painting a
19     house is an excellent opportunity to catch up on radio
20     listening.  Well, I caught Peter Gzowski's Red River
21     Rally.  I think my painting suffered a little with the
22     tears I shed as I realized how few people in Canada or
23     how few institutions could have pulled off such an
24     effort with so little notice.  We had all been hearing
25     so much about the flood in Manitoba and feeling so


 1     helpless.  He and the CBC gave us the opportunity to do
 2     something, to hear about what was going on.
 3  177                  We were getting ready to move to
 4     Newfoundland and it was CBC that was the common
 5     denominator as we drove across the continent with two
 6     canoes on top of our small truck, with us and our dog
 7     and two cats inside.  We visited family in the States
 8     on the way across.  So CBC wasn't always within range.
 9  178                  Returning across the border from
10     Maine to New Brunswick meant that yes, we could hear
11     CBC again.  Once more, we could hear news of home, of
12     Canada.  Once more, we could hear more than about local
13     arrests and automobile accidents and house fires --
14     real stuff, not fluff and filler, and also more than
15     just the news of Canada but the news of the world.
16  179                  Once we had moved into our new house
17     here in Newfoundland, CBC, because it was a constant
18     across the country, was the only bit of something
19     familiar for quite a while.  Oh sure, we made friends
20     here among the folks here.  We even had friends who had
21     moved here before us from Alberta.  But it was the CBC
22     who was our closest friend, the one we knew best.
23  180                  A couple of weeks ago, we actually
24     did more than flip past The Sports Network.  It was
25     because we had a friend participating in a curling


 1     tournament, "The Scott Tournament of Hearts".  Yes, it
 2     was Colleen Jones of the CBC.  No, I have never met
 3     her!  But we had seen her every morning for I don't
 4     know how many years and we wanted to know how she was
 5     doing.  We cheered for her when she won.
 6  181                  Newsworld and CBC TV News -- and you
 7     know one thing about Newfoundland, I can get Newsworld
 8     here.  Where I lived in Alberta, it was not available
 9     because cable was not available.
10  182                  The CBC and Newsworld had introduced
11     us to Colleen along with so many other Canadians that
12     they interview and show us, and that, I believe, is the
13     central task of the CBC, our central public
14     broadcaster:  to introduce us to Canada and to
15     Canadians.
16  183                  I enjoy Ann Petrie's TV show
17     "Absolutely Canadian", where she shows us what other
18     regional news shows are putting together.  I always
19     enjoy the occasional radio holiday program from
20     Yellowknife or somewhere else that I rarely hear
21     anything about.
22  184                  The recent strike though has brought
23     home to me that I also very much want to hear about
24     what is going on right here.  Living halfway between
25     Calgary and Edmonton, I rarely heard about what was


 1     happening right there in Lacombe.  It was sort of
 2     nowhere land.
 3  185                  The tribal storyteller, CBC, is much
 4     more than mere entertainment.  The stories form us and
 5     our identity.  They tell us who we are, where we have
 6     come from, and what our hopes and dreams for the future
 7     are.  The storyteller's stories do nothing more or less
 8     than keep us together.  National unity is the result of
 9     many of us knowing the same stories.  We identify with
10     those stories that we know.
11  186                  Americans are great storytellers, if
12     nothing else.  I grew up with stories of frontier
13     settlers and all kinds of heroes, in school, on TV -- I
14     never listened to the radio there.  My father added his
15     personal stories of World War II to my picture of who
16     and what the country is.  I knew about the tribe I grew
17     up in.  Now though, I live in Canada and I want to know
18     about this tribe.
19  187                  Storytellers are few and far between
20     these days.  The main one, I think, the real one here
21     in Canada is the CBC.  I have high hopes and high
22     expectations that it will do its job.
23  188                  I want to hear about the great
24     stories of great Canadians, great Newfoundlanders, and
25     how they contributed to the making of this country and


 1     what the current great Canadians are doing now.
 2  189                  I want it to be more accurate than
 3     the report from a rival news service last night which
 4     mispronounced the name of the organism which causes
 5     beaver fever and called it a virus twice in the same
 6     news report, which it is not.
 7  190                  I want to hear more from Quebec,
 8     sub-titled if necessary.  I know only enough French to
 9     just catch that the news from Quebec has a different
10     tone and a different slant than the English-Canada
11     news.  We need to hear more of that to understand their
12     concerns and they of course need to hear about us.
13  191                  We need to know about what is
14     happening in the Vancouver west coast fishery and they
15     need to hear about ours.  I bet you there are a lot of
16     similarities.  Given the politics though, it is not an
17     easy task.  It is a difficult one, but that is the
18     CBC's task.
19  192                  It is essential.  It is our stories
20     which hold us together and we need to hear our stories,
21     not the mass media stories which I think the real
22     definition of that is American stories.
23  193                  The CBC is our storyteller.
24  194                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
25     much, Ms Sather.


 1  195                  MS MOORE:  I would like to call Mr.
 2     Brendan Power please.
 3  196                  Is Mr. Brendan Power here?
 4                                                        1406
 5  197                  MS MOORE:  I would like to call the
 6     next presenter, Dr. Jim Orr.
 8  198                  DR. ORR:  Thank you.
 9  199                  First of all, I want to say that I
10     will be talking about radio.  I think pretty well
11     everyone here has kind of ignored TV.  I think partly
12     the reason is that TV has a lot of quite good
13     competition and I sometimes wonder what would happen if
14     CBC radio disappeared.  Would there be a corresponding
15     growth of a commercial high-quality across-Canada
16     system?
17  200                  I somehow doubt it but I think that
18     there is a fair amount of high-quality stuff getting in
19     the TV so that as far as I am concerned, CBC TV could
20     disappear, and although I might be sorry, I wouldn't be
21     as sorry as I would be if the radio disappeared.
22  201                  I appreciate from the CBC radio the
23     high level of discussion, good music, which essentially
24     allows me to be aware of the rest of the country, as
25     others have spoken about.


 1  202                  My main concern is that there seems
 2     to be a lack of science knowledge, fundamental science
 3     knowledge among those who are in charge of the
 4     intellectual end of the CBC.  Probably there is a good
 5     deal of science knowledge in those who are keeping
 6     everything working efficiently, which perhaps is why it
 7     is not working quite as efficiently right now.
 8  203                  The Girardia(ph) suggestion of the
 9     previous speaker is a case in point.  We have heard
10     some ridiculous things, things that are ridiculous from
11     a scientific point of view being seriously reported on
12     CBC because there is a lack of fundamental science
13     knowledge in those who are producing the stuff.
14  204                  I wonder:  Do you have details of,
15     for instance, how many of the CBC radio intellectuals
16     -- people who are concerned with the programming,
17     either reporting it directly or preparing it for others
18     to report -- have a Science degree and how many have an
19     Arts degree, for instance?  Is it 5 per cent Science,
20     95 per cent Arts degrees among those who have degrees? 
21     I guess it is something like that.
22  205                  I have heard things, for instance,
23     like it has seriously been reported that the reason
24     that there was a fire in the Gander dump was that
25     somebody had dumped a whole lot of sulphur there and it


 1     had been rained upon.  As if a mixture of water and
 2     sulphur is something which is going to ignite!  What I
 3     did was I actually phoned Peter Miller who had reported
 4     that and said, "Peter, you have to take news item off
 5     the air -- it's wrong -- until you find out exactly
 6     what the truth is in the matter", which is what he did.
 7  206                  Each year, at Memorial, there are
 8     1,100 students who take first-year chemistry.  I
 9     haven't checked on physics or mathematics or the
10     others.  But just with chemistry alone, that means that
11     -- there are 100,000 roughly in the St. John's area. 
12     That means about 1 per cent of the population of
13     St. John's is getting at least a first-year chemistry
14     course per annum.  So over a 20-year period, that is
15     20 per cent of the population of St. John's, if you
16     care to do the calculation, has at least a first-year
17     chemistry course.
18  207                  How does that compare with the level
19     of science knowledge of the CBC?  I would say perhaps
20     the general education out in the population may be
21     higher than that of the CBC as far as good science
22     training is concerned.
23  208                  Even with the science programs like
24     "Quirks and Quarks", it seems to me that over the last
25     five years or so, there has been a kind of dumbing down


 1     of the science reporting in "Quirks and Quarks".  It is
 2     more the sociology of science than the actual science
 3     reporting that is being done.  It is less good than it
 4     was.
 5  209                  "Ideas" on the other hand -- the
 6     program "Ideas", I think, has maintained a very
 7     interesting, high level of thought, more in the
 8     sociology end, but then that is its end.  But it has
 9     been keeping it up.
10  210                  I would also like to say how much I
11     appreciate hearing the world news overnight from the
12     Radio One CBC.  This is fairly new, I think.  It has
13     only been a couple of years that that has been going on
14     at the most but I really appreciate that.  In fact, I
15     have a tape recorder going most of the night so that
16     during the day, during the off periods during the day,
17     I can play these tapes back and listen to radio from
18     Australia or the Netherlands or Deutschvela(ph) from
19     Germany and so on.  I do appreciate that very much and
20     would like that to continue and perhaps even expand a
21     bit more into the day in exchange for some other
22     programs.
23  211                  I think that is just about everything
24     I have to say.  I very much appreciate CBC and although
25     it is possible others might take over from it if it


 1     were to disappear, I doubt it.
 2  212                  Thank you.
 3  213                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 4     much.
 5  214                  There are a number of CBC folks
 6     sitting behind you on the wall over here and I guess we
 7     will have to think about sending them all back to
 8     school for a Science degree.
 9     --- Laughter / Rires
10  215                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Michael is getting
11     a little nervous here, I think, and I don't know
12     whether Mr. Callahan should be sending the students he
13     has brought with him today for a first-year chemistry
14     course or whatever so they can all have more knowledge
15     of science if they get to have a job in broadcasting,
16     but we will take note of your points.
17  216                  Ms Moore.
18                                                        1412
19  217                  MS MOORE:  I would like to call
20     Mr. John Nicolle please.
22  218                  MR. NICOLLE:  Good afternoon.  I come
23     this afternoon as a fan of CBC radio.  I listen to at
24     least six hours a day, being that it is on in the
25     morning when I wake up, in the office when I am doing


 1     the church's business during the day, and when I go to
 2     sleep at night.
 3  219                  I have just moved into an area where
 4     I can now receive Radio Two.  I did live down on the
 5     south coast of Newfoundland in Fortune and Belleoram
 6     and also in central Newfoundland where I could not
 7     receive Radio Two.  Like a previous speaker, I was very
 8     upset because it removed one of my choices that I was
 9     paying for as a taxpayer.
10  220                  About CBC Radio One, most of the
11     programs are very good.  I do have a problem with the
12     CBC morning show.  The other local news programs are
13     very province-wide, but the morning show, which calls
14     itself "The St. John's Morning Show", is very much
15     that, a St. John's morning show.
16  221                  I have two examples that I have
17     brought with me, just from yesterday and today's show,
18     about how they concentrate on St. John's and if it
19     doesn't happen outside the overpass, then it doesn't
20     happen.
21  222                  Yesterday morning, an interview was
22     on about a vaccine that was coming out for chicken pox. 
23     The announcer announced that there was in the Avalon
24     region an outbreak of chicken pox in the last region. 
25     Well, at Christmastime, my Sunday School concert almost


 1     didn't go ahead because of the chicken pox.  This is
 2     not a recent outbreak in the Avalon.  It may be recent
 3     in St. John's.  So why was it not reported back in
 4     December when it was broken out in our area?
 5  223                  This morning, there is a possible
 6     nurses' strike going on.  One of the hospitals was
 7     contacted about how they would survive.  Again, it was
 8     the hospital in St. John's that was chosen.  It was a
 9     long interview.  There was nothing on the hospital in
10     Marystown, nothing on the hospital in Carbonear or in
11     Harbour Breton, and I could probably go farther but I
12     don't know the rest of the Island.
13  224                  The "Noon Hour" show, when it was on,
14     but it's not on now because of the strike, and the "On
15     the Go" show were very much province-wide and were very
16     good in letting me know what was going on in the rest
17     of the province.
18  225                  I am, as I say, very much a fan of
19     CBC radio and I would like to see it continued and
20     fully funded.
21  226                  Thank you.
22  227                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
23     Mr. Nicolle.
24  228                  Just in your comments about the
25     service not being island-wide or province-wide enough,


 1     is that -- I am just picking up on a couple of comments
 2     you made towards the end -- has that been more recent
 3     than during the time of the strike or does that go back
 4     even prior to the strike?
 5  229                  MR. NICOLLE:  That goes back even
 6     farther.  When I was down on the south coast, I had to
 7     regularly call into the morning show to find out what
 8     the weather was going to be for that day in the area
 9     that they were broadcasting.  They would give the
10     weather for St. John's or the northeast Avalon. 
11     Eventually, they learned.
12  230                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  Thank you
13     very much.
14                                                        1416
15  231                  MS MOORE:  I would like to call our
16     next presenter, Ms Jackie MacNab.
17     --- Applause
18  232                  MS MacNAB:  Thank you.
19  233                  Hello.  I am here as a great fan of
20     CBC but also as a concerned listener.  I am here to
21     voice my concern and disappointment over the
22     possibility of losing CBC's foreign reporters.  To me,
23     it would be the most negative line of action for the
24     Corporation to take.
25  234                  Every 24 hours, we look forward with


 1     the greatest of ease to hearing and seeing the latest
 2     events in the world around us.  Surely, the very
 3     purpose of existing is to keep us informed in the most
 4     up-to-date manner possible, not only with the news from
 5     abroad but about our own countrymen living in different
 6     parts of the world.
 7  235                  I just can't imagine CBC as a whole
 8     entity without foreign reporters.  It is important to
 9     keep us up-to-date with the latest information, through
10     informative, easy listening and well-presented reports.
11  236                  Please keep the good work coming.  I
12     think we are really getting a good deal for our dollar.
13  237                  To second the few gentleman back, I
14     really enjoy the "World News" at night.  I think it is
15     a wonderful listen and if you are working in Great
16     Britain or have family over there, like I have been
17     doing, it's wonderful to sit back and hear Ann
18     MacMillan talking about events in different parts of
19     Canada and even Newfoundland.
20  238                  Thank you.
21  239                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
22     Ms MacNab.
23                                                        1418
24  240                  MS MOORE:  I would like to call
25     Mr. Carl Powell please.


 2  241                  MR. POWELL:  Might I explain a
 3     little, Mr. Chairman?  When I called the number that
 4     was advertised to present a paper here or whatever, I
 5     didn't receive the format in the mail.  I happened to
 6     get it just Sunday from the CBC TV.
 7  242                  So I wrote a report.  I was working
 8     along.  There are a lot of attachments but it was meant
 9     as a written submission for you to take anyway.  There
10     are just two typed pages, if I may read them.
11  243                  My name is Carl Powell.  I am a
12     retired mining engineer, a professional engineer.  Most
13     of this pertains to the logos and the use of words.
14  244                  I would like to say, first, that I
15     disagree strongly with the gentleman who is just
16     sitting on my left here about "The Morning Show".  I
17     think it is one of the best things that has happened to
18     this province and I think we have to talk about CBC as
19     a provincial entity from Cape Chidley to Cape Race and
20     as a national entity and not just St. John's versus the
21     south coast.
22  245                  Just to give you one example, when I
23     got the format, it was somewhat different -- you wanted
24     to know how the CBC fitted in.  I will just read this
25     one paragraph on that.


 1  246                  Right now, there are secret and, in
 2     my opinion, nefarious talks going on between the secret
 3     decree Government of Quebec, Mr. Bouchard, and the
 4     Newfoundland Government, Mr. Tobin.  And only for the
 5     TV reports of RDI on channel 55 here, Réseau de
 6     l'information, I would never have known the plans for
 7     Labrador and the extent of what is happening to the
 8     water and the drought and the reservoirs and the
 9     Hydro-Québec things, of which they include the
10     Smallwood Reservoir in Labrador.
11  247                  Just last week, Jim Brown on "The
12     Morning Show" said, you should listen in to Barbara
13     Bawd(ph) and to Mary-Lou Findlay on "As It Happens"
14     because they are going to talk about this award to a
15     Ms Monique Fournier from, I think, Melbourne(ph) -- the
16     Eastern Townships, about how they stopped Hydro-Québec
17     with this 1,000-megawatt transmission line which, in my
18     opinion, is going to take the 1,000 megawatts from the
19     new Upper Churchill -- and again, this is all secret by
20     decree.  I would have never known that only from
21     listening to "The Morning Show" and listening, when it
22     came on some time later, to "As It Happens".
23  248                  RDI has shown us -- to me anyway --
24     about the global warming and how it is affecting the
25     water in those reservoirs and also how it is affecting


 1     the drinking water perhaps.
 2  249                  One more comment on "The Morning
 3     Show".  We would never have learned in Voisey Bay that
 4     there is mercury and arsenic in that locale.  What it
 5     means for us I don't really know but it has tremendous
 6     implications if that smelter is going to go down here
 7     in Argentia with mercury and arsenic.  I would have
 8     never known that, only for a reporter on CBC radio.
 9  250                  Anyway, my paper -- I call it
10     "Transmitting Denigration" and I say this:
11  251                  As a self-respecting Canadian who
12     interprets the legislation on what is generally known
13     as hate propaganda as the use and conveyance of any
14     material by any method whatsoever, in part or in whole,
15     that would likely expose people to hatred, contempt or
16     derision, on the basis of race, religion, ethnic
17     origin, whether visible or invisible in the majority, I
18     find that the use of native people of the Americas in
19     general and Canada in particular as sports logos and
20     our mascots to be long overdue for eradication.
21  252                  The universal moral values and the
22     proven patriotism of this nation can no longer permit
23     its inclusion.  Because this abuse of a race of people
24     should be stopped, the good bearings of the CRTC must
25     be encumbered to forthwith enforce the above


 1     legislation in all its jurisdictions.  Most of our
 2     fellow citizens give little thought as to what these
 3     logos mean nor to how they evolved.
 4  253                  One example is the Washington
 5     Redskins.  Redskin comes from the bounty placed on
 6     native Americans of the Plains back in the mid-1850s. 
 7     A piece of redskin replaced the bulk of bodies and the
 8     unsightly scalps as chits.  That was $0.80 for a man,
 9     $0.50 for a woman and $0.30 for a child.
10  254                  While this sounds disgusting and
11     belongs in history, I call your attention to the local
12     press of the 27th of February 1999 where the Assembly
13     of Nova Scotia Micmac wanted the Nova Scotia Government
14     to repeal a 242-year-old British proclamation that
15     offered a bounty for native scalps.
16  255                  In closing, you might be surprised to
17     know that "squaw" is the Algonquin vernacular for a
18     four-letter English "c" word for a lady.  It was the
19     white man who put this name on native women.
20  256                  On the use of logos or emblems, the
21     CRTC must enjoin the CBC to resist the federal
22     government order which is in the press lately to brand
23     itself a government-funded service.  The CBC must
24     protect and preserve its journalistic independence.  It
25     must not only say but it must show its eternal


 1     vigilance in the defence of freedom of expression for
 2     all its citizens.  Please find attachments illustrating
 3     my arguments.
 4  257                  I also have a video I would like to
 5     give you.  I know you could never show it here because
 6     of the time.  It is called "In Whose Honour?" and it is
 7     about the American use of logos and how they treat
 8     their native people.
 9  258                  In Canada, I think the United Nations
10     rates Canada as the 47th of civilized nations in how it
11     treats its native people.  I think it is long overdue
12     for some correction or some positive thing.  I think
13     the CBC plays a major role.
14  259                  My second part is again dealing with
15     this but more at home.  I call this "What's a
16     eunolym(ph) for?"  Slowly but effectively, the present
17     and the past governments of this province have foisted
18     on our people a division within the Province of
19     Newfoundland, a spurious and racially inherited name,
20     that is, the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador.
21  260                  This title exists nowhere officially
22     and was interjected into usage by the former
23     J.R. Smallwood in 1967 as to be the Government of
24     Newfoundland and Labrador only and all other usages
25     must continue to be Newfoundland.  This and Labrador


 1     does not exist anywhere in the federal government in
 2     Canada in international usage of any kind anywhere else
 3     in the world.
 4  261                  From my travels and work as a
 5     professional engineer in the mainland part of our
 6     province, I consistently found a racial distinction
 7     engendered by Mr. Smallwood and others which manifests
 8     itself in such senseless sayings such as -- if you are
 9     white -- I am a native-born Labradorian to distinguish
10     yourself from your grandparents on the Island part.  If
11     you are not white, they say, I am a native-born
12     Labradorian native.
13  262                  It seems to me that this is the most
14     idiotic name change a country could inflict upon
15     itself.  There is strong speculation and suspicion that
16     in late 1995 or early 1996, that is just before Mr.
17     Tobin returned to this province, that a directive came
18     down from the CBC head and, henceforth, the CBC radio
19     and TV in Newfoundland were to use the incorrect term
20     "Newfoundland and Labrador".
21  263                  I believe this is the vein that
22     Mr. Tobin is desperately seeking to outdo Joey and to
23     give away the resources situated in the Labrador part
24     of our province, in short, the Lower Churchill, the
25     pellet plant, the iron ore, and those mineral wealths


 1     yet to come, nickel, copper, rare earth metals, et
 2     cetera.
 3  264                  Also and perhaps more important --
 4     and there are attachments here to show this -- the use
 5     of "and Labrador" is a constant irritant in the side of
 6     our sister province of Quebec and objections from
 7     Quebec are usually met in Newfoundland with
 8     unfortunately derisive and racial responses.  The use
 9     of "and Labrador" only serves to marginalize our native
10     people, incessantly rebuffs Quebec, and gives further
11     credence to another racial slur, the Newfie joke. 
12     Please find an attachment showing the lunacy that
13     seemingly once patriotic Newfoundlanders --
14  265                  There is also another point, my last
15     point.  I would like to see the Regulations used to
16     stop CBC from calling this province by another foul
17     four-letter name:  Iraq.  This term was also authored
18     by Mr. Smallwood on one of his begging trips to Ottawa,
19     where he said, "Have mercy on us down in Newfoundland. 
20     We are but a fog-shrouded rock in the North Atlantic."
21  266                  I think the CRTC, in those things
22     about emblems and the use of this word, has a strong
23     role to play.
24  267                  Thank you.
25  268                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Powell.


 1                                                        1427
 2  269                  MS MOORE:  I would like to call
 3     Ms Patricia Ploughman please.
 5  270                  MS PLOUGHMAN:  Thank you.  I am not
 6     representing anybody here but myself and I will keep
 7     this as brief as I can.
 8  271                  I have long been a CBC radio fan
 9     because I came to Newfoundland in 1958, having cut my
10     teeth on BBC radio.  So my perspective is obviously
11     here mainly directed towards the radio.
12  272                  When I received the information from
13     the CRTC, I had been planning, prior to this, prior to
14     learning about these hearings, I had a number of
15     letters sworn and in the writing process to go to CBC
16     management and also to Sheila Copps et al, voicing a
17     number of concerns.  Anyway, when I read some of these
18     guidelines here it seemed that some of my concerns fit
19     in with some of these questions.
20  273                  The first question:  In your view,
21     how well does the CBC fulfill its role?
22  274                  Now, I am not quite sure what the
23     role is.  However, I heard a discussion on the radio
24     the other day that one of the early proponents of
25     public radio said that public radio should be a


 1     billboard, that it should entertain and educate.  That
 2     is a paraphrasing of what he actually said.
 3  275                  Well, I have to say that since 1958 I
 4     have been educated and I have been entertained but over
 5     the last four years I have been dismayed by the changes
 6     and disappointed in the kinds of things that I have
 7     seen happening from the point of view of programming. 
 8     Quite often, the need to streamline and cut costs
 9     results in increased creativity but this doesn't seem
10     to have happened.
11  276                  It appears to listeners that a lot of
12     these changes have occurred secondary to budget cuts. 
13     Nationally, there seems to be a lack of variety, a
14     marked decrease in some program depth, of coverage, of
15     subject matter and background research, and locally,
16     not just all of the above but a complete loss of some
17     programs, and worst of all, repetition, repetition,
18     repetition -- and need I say again -- repetition.
19  277                  In fact, what is happening to radio
20     it is in danger of becoming background noise instead of
21     being an educator and an entertainer.  We have seen
22     during this recent labour and management dispute just
23     what we may have to face in the future:  generic
24     Ontario radio and more repetition, repetition,
25     repetition.


 1  278                  It is not that I am resistant to
 2     change.  Heaven knows I can program a VCR but change
 3     does not seem to be -- I cannot see in the changes that
 4     have occurred anything particularly positive for those
 5     of us who are dedicated radio listeners.
 6  279                  One of the other questions is:  How
 7     well does CBC serve the public on a regional as well as
 8     a national level?
 9  280                  Well, I just made that comment and
10     several other gentlemen made the same comment, that the
11     regions seem to have been paired down to the bone, the
12     decision-making has been removed and it is very obvious
13     on a day-to-day basis.
14  281                  Should the programming being provided
15     by CBC radio be different?
16  282                  Well, it is different.  It is
17     different now.  I mean, from a radio perspective, if
18     you turn on the radio, you know immediately as soon as
19     you hear it when you have CBC radio on.  So I think it
20     would be absolutely devastating if that were to change.
21  283                  Is there a special role that the CBC
22     should play in the presentation of Canadian
23     programming?
24  284                  Well, Canada is not a melting pot. 
25     It is a huge geographically diverse country with a


 1     relatively small diverse cultural population.  It is a
 2     sum of the parts and we need to maintain the strength
 3     of those parts to ensure the strength of the country as
 4     a whole.
 5  285                  If we are to maintain that strength,
 6     we need a distinctive public broadcaster to mirror the
 7     regions to themselves, to the nation, and the nation to
 8     the regions, and to promote and nurture the huge
 9     amounts of talent that exist in this country.
10  286                  In closing, I would just like to
11     quote Claire Mowatt(ph) in her book, "The Outport(ph)
12     People":
13                            "I have often wondered if the
14                            Canadian Broadcasting
15                            Corporation knows or cares about
16                            all those distant and unknown
17                            corners of its domain where its
18                            unique programs are heard."  (As
19                            read)
20  287                  Thank you.
21  288                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
22     Ms Ploughman.
23                                                        1432
24  289                  MS MOORE:  I would like to call
25     Ms Dolores Flynn please.


 1  290                  Is Ms Dolores Flynn here?
 2  291                  Okay, we will move to the next
 3     presenter, Ms Mary Ennis.
 4  292                  We will move to Mr. Harry Brown
 5     please.
 7  293                  MR. BROWN:  Thank you.
 8  294                  I must say I wish -- this would make
 9     a great show today.  It's too bad you didn't have a
10     licence.
11     --- Laughter / Rires
12  295                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  I recognize that
13     voice.
14  296                  MR. BROWN:  Well, it is a rare
15     occasion that the CRTC actually presides over
16     enlightenment --
17     --- Laughter / Rires
18  297                  MR. BROWN:  I had the occasion in --
19     just a few things.  I had the good luck to be born and
20     brought up in St. John's east.  I was 19 years old when
21     I woke up one morning and they told me I was a
22     Canadian.  I didn't have a chance to vote on it because
23     I was only 19.  I won't speculate on what my vote would
24     have been but it was a fascinating experience.
25  298                  Now, we were mildly aware of Canada. 


 1     First of all, it was a foreign country, and if you
 2     don't believe me, you should have been here when your
 3     troops came here during World War II.  I think it was
 4     they who coined the term "Newfie" and it was in there
 5     with words like "nigger" and "frog".  They weren't
 6     terms of endearment.
 7  299                  However, we had other positive views
 8     of Canada.  "Stage 49" on CBC radio was a must.  I was
 9     a student at Memorial University -- College at the
10     time.  My degree by the way is GE(ph) and we were also
11     accustomed to listening to Wayne and Shuster, who were
12     incredibly creative and incredibly funny.  So we did
13     have this brush with Canadians and Canada.
14  300                  It seems to me that there are certain
15     conditions existing, conditions over which we had no
16     control, which makes the presence of the CBC in this
17     country of particular importance.  These conditions
18     are:  the size and geography of Canada itself, our
19     relative low population density, our two languages --
20     well, four if you include the various Cree and so on
21     languages and the various Innu languages and dialects
22     -- and our border with the United States, which we are
23     told laughingly is also an English-speaking nation.
24  301                  One fact makes public broadcasting,
25     radio and television, a necessity and that is that our


 1     population spread out as it is could not be served and
 2     would not be served by private broadcasters for the
 3     clear and simple reason that it would not be
 4     profitable.  You simply cannot make money doing a
 5     comprehensive job of broadcasting over large tracts of
 6     thinly populated areas like Newfoundland and Labrador.
 7  302                  Now, a comprehensive job of
 8     broadcasting does not consist of pop music and
 9     open-line talk shows and commercials with the
10     occasional nod towards what passes as a newscast.  In
11     this country and in this province in particular, we
12     must have mirror broadcasting.  We must show us to
13     ourselves with our own history, our own literature, our
14     music, our own culture.
15  303                  Thirty years ago, the CBC in this
16     province, which was then only a few years old -- I
17     think CBC television was only about four years old at
18     the time -- besides the local and national radio
19     schedule had a very impressive list of local television
20     productions.
21  304                  There were music programs.  There was
22     a high school quiz show which was the pilot groundwork
23     -- a whole year of work went into it -- for what became
24     "Reach for the Top".  I'm sure you are all familiar
25     with "Reach for the Top".  It was called "High Teens"


 1     and it included, besides the questions and so on, news
 2     and issues of interest to high school students,
 3     presented by the students themselves.
 4  305                  We had children's programming
 5     produced here in Newfoundland with local boys and
 6     girls.  We had quiz shows for adults.  We had
 7     Newfoundland historical recreations.  There were shows
 8     like -- series shows like "Yesterday's Heroes" and
 9     "Where Once They Stood".  In 1983, the ACTRA Award for
10     the best Canadian television production for the year
11     was won in St. John's by Tom Call for "Cornerstone of
12     Empire".  He did it with local people and with local
13     resources.  The list goes on.  It is impressive and it
14     is lengthy.  I urge you to have someone provide it for
15     your files.
16  306                  In 1982, the CBC radio and television
17     staff in St. John's numbered close to 300 people.  Now
18     for the entire province -- and you know we are somewhat
19     bigger than Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, and Prince
20     Edward Island put together -- the staff for the entire
21     province is around 130 and the program schedule
22     reflects this murderous cutback in staff.  I understand
23     that the cutbacks have been greater here in this region
24     than in any other region of the CBC in the country.
25  307                  We are reduced to a local TV newscast


 1     a day called "Here and Now", a weekly "Land and Sea"
 2     show -- it is an excellent program -- and in an entire
 3     season about half a dozen episodes of a show called
 4     "Dooley Gardens", also a very fine program.  No music,
 5     no children's programs, no variety programs.  Our local
 6     artists must hear of what I am saying now and not
 7     believe what they are hearing.  But I assure you it is
 8     the truth.
 9  308                  I would not be dismayed if the local
10     CBC television stations became a more frequent producer
11     of Newfoundland and Labrador cultural programs and
12     placed a smaller amount of their already massively
13     reduced budget on news.  It seems to me that the local
14     private broadcasters might be able to do an adequate
15     job in news.  Perhaps some of our staff could go and
16     show them a few things.  I say our because I feel
17     proprietary about the CBC.  I have spent 30 years of my
18     life working there.
19  309                  Also, I feel that CBC television
20     should be commercial-free.  Radio is and in the past
21     25-30 years since it has become commercial free it, I
22     think, has become much better.
23  310                  Now in my youth, I had the great
24     advantage of working in a variety of radio and
25     television programs.  It was interesting to visit with


 1     the groups of English, Australian, New Zealand, and
 2     American broadcasters who were so impressed with the
 3     program ideas and program productions that we had that
 4     they came here to see how they were done.  They were
 5     keen to try out some of the ideas that we had at home.
 6  311                  "As It Happens" was of particular
 7     interest and I had the honour to work on the program
 8     for the first six years of its existence.  They were
 9     especially impressed with "Marketplace" and
10     "Morningside" and that the programs were based in
11     Toronto, the centre of the universe.  Viewers and
12     listeners in every part of the country were very much
13     included in the content and points of view of the
14     programs and in a great majority of the air time of all
15     of these same programs.
16  312                  We quite enjoyed these visits since
17     here in Canada CBC had till then -- and I gather from
18     this meeting that not much has changed.  We have not
19     enjoyed the same respect.  We were, after all, a child
20     of the BBC.  By the way, these comparisons with the BBC
21     bear perhaps another glance.
22  313                  All of the United Kingdom is served
23     by the BBC radio and television, AM and FM, and the
24     entire area uses less than a dozen transmitters, this
25     for a population of 60 million -- more than twice our


 1     population -- one language, no English-language
 2     competition nearby, and in one time zone.  Britain, the
 3     United Kingdom, was designed by a broadcaster -- in
 4     1066 or whenever it was.
 5     --- Laughter / Rires
 6  314                  MR. BROWN:  The CBC uses over 600
 7     transmitters, and according to what we heard this
 8     afternoon, they could use a few more -- six time zones,
 9     English, French, several dialects of Cree and Innu. 
10     You always have to remember that this country was not
11     designed by a broadcaster.  It was like topsy.  It just
12     sort of happened.
13  315                  On the subject of language, we might
14     not be having these meetings and the existence of the
15     CBC might not be threatened had we opted sensibly -- I
16     believe we should have opted sensibly in 1867 -- to
17     declare French to be our national language.  We would
18     have been much better off in every respect if we had
19     decided to be francophones instead of whatever it is we
20     are.  That border wouldn't bother us any more.
21  316                  We must recognize that we regard, in
22     this country, still regard literature, music and drama,
23     and folklore and history as culture.  There is nothing
24     terribly surprising about that as the United States
25     treats these elements as commodities to be packaged and


 1     sold for profit on the world market.  Until they come
 2     to recognize this difference in perception -- until
 3     they come to recognize this difference and respect our
 4     differences, then we must protect and enhance that
 5     which is ours.  The alternative is that we should sell
 6     our souls for a few dollars.
 7  317                  We might as well then go, cap in
 8     hand, to Washington and seek admission of ourselves,
 9     our children, our lumber, our minerals, our fish, our
10     water, our acres, our air, to the land of the free and
11     the home of the brave -- I understand you have to be
12     brave to live there.
13  318                  Make no mistake about it:  there are
14     Canadians who wouldn't hesitate, a majority to be sure,
15     but perhaps influential ones -- ask Mr. Asper.  Now it
16     might help if the CRTC and the appropriate federal
17     government departments were made aware of certain
18     facts.
19  319                  There is, in nuclear science, a
20     condition known as critical mass and that is the amount
21     of a given fissionable material necessary to sustain
22     the chain reaction but at a constant rate.  Is that
23     close?
24  320                  UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:  Close.
25  321                  MR. BROWN:  Thank you.


 1  322                  Let us consider a sufficient number
 2     of already creative people to have a significant effect
 3     or to achieve a result.  Let us call it collegiality,
 4     the interaction that takes place amongst colleagues, a
 5     most necessary state of affairs for a broadcasting
 6     system devoted more to creativity, to art, to
 7     entertainment and to knowledge than to the assembling
 8     of numbers of viewers or listeners to impress sponsors
 9     so that they can sell other commodities.  Surely even
10     the Americans recognize this.  When some of them
11     created national public broadcasting -- or PBS, public
12     broadcasting, child of the CBC, dare I say.
13  323                  Peter Gzowski:  we have heard a
14     couple of well-deserved and complimentary mentions of
15     Peter today.  He depends upon this as do all the
16     broadcasters that I know of in the business.  You don't
17     suppose that the on-air people work alone.  Even the
18     viewer and listener might believe that somewhere off --
19     you know, that this person -- but if you are in the
20     business, you know that there has to be a back-up team. 
21     There has to be a creative team and we feed from each
22     other.
23  324                  One of the great programs that was on
24     the air on radio in the forties was "Stage 46", "Stage
25     47", "Stage 48" drama on radio -- magnificent drama. 


 1     Esther W. Young(ph) was one of the producers as was
 2     Andrew Allen(ph).  I can't tell you the goosebumps that
 3     I encountered when I first met Andrew Allen.  He was
 4     almost as tall as Nick Ketchum and sometimes as
 5     creative.
 6  325                  Andrew would say to me every once in
 7     a while, "Harry, I need a word."  Now, this is taking
 8     collegiality a bit far, I think.  Andrew grew up of
 9     course and lived in central Canada and for a while in
10     the U.K.  He was on one of those big torpedo wings that
11     happened at the beginning of the Second World War.
12  326                  I said to him, one day, "How about
13     sleveen(ph), Andrew?"  "Ah, that's fantastic!  Sleveen,
14     what a wonderful word!  What does it mean?"  I said,
15     "It is onomatopoeic in a way.  It means a sneaky, sly
16     person."  "Oh, that's fantastic, fantastic!"  And off
17     he went to create another "Stage 54" whatever it was
18     and I always felt that I, in some small way, had a
19     part.
20  327                  I would like to take a moment to take
21     the CRTC to task.  Now I am told that you prevented the
22     CBC from rebroadcasting "This Hour Has 22 Minutes" from
23     the news channel after complaints from the Mr. Aspers
24     of this country that this show did not meet the
25     definition of news -- his definition of news.


 1  328                  Now, we all know and love, not just
 2     "This Hour Has 22 Minutes" but the people who create
 3     it.  They are all ours, even though they are in Nova
 4     Scotia.  That is a temporary exile.  They will come
 5     home when the occasion demands.  They need to get their
 6     creative juices restored.
 7  329                  Mr. Asper or some private
 8     broadcasters -- what the private broadcaster really
 9     complained about was that he couldn't compete with the
10     creativity.  So you must and you did relieve him of the
11     need to be more creative.
12  330                  Imagine if the Edmonton Oilers
13     complained to the NHL that the Toronto Maple Leafs were
14     scoring too many goals.  We have to do something about
15     that.  It makes it unfair.  You can't get more Canadian
16     than that.
17  331                  By the way, "The Antiques Road Show"
18     is on Newsworld.  A new show?
19     --- Off microphone / Sans microphone
20  332                  MR. BROWN:  But maybe Mr. Asper
21     didn't complain.
22  333                  Let's get rid of the CBC.  The hell
23     with it!  Then we can form committees and commissions
24     and give grants to ex-politicians to rediscover it. 
25     The Pope also, by the way, should paint the Sistine


 1     Chapel.
 2  334                  Before we rush to burn the place
 3     down, let us recall, if only for a moment, that it was
 4     Joan Watson of the CBC, not Mr. Asper, who told her
 5     Toronto CBC radio audience in the early seventies that
 6     Loblaws charged less than Dominion Stores for beef and
 7     chicken and fish and eggs and pork but that Food City
 8     had the best quality food and vegetables.  What's this? 
 9     Good heavens!  Calling a spade a spade.  You can't do
10     that.  That's "unbroadcasting".  Not on private
11     airwaves where the sponsor knows he doesn't have to
12     flex the old corporate muscle -- no muzzling of the
13     free press after all, just a little wink at contract
14     time.
15  335                  Joan, by the way, began the great CBC
16     TV series "Marketplace".  Her bosses backed her all the
17     way when she was criticized in that way as long as she
18     had her facts right.  It's too bad -- now mind you,
19     these bosses were old bureaucrats, old broadcasters,
20     most of them.  Too bad they weren't around for Terry
21     Milewsky.
22  336                  Our old Corporation may not be as
23     good as it might be.  Even the federal government has
24     seen to that.  But if you count the cost at about
25     $40.00 per taxpayer per year -- it comes out at less


 1     than $10.00 a week, two or three cups of coffee -- it
 2     probably comes in a lot cheaper than the private
 3     broadcasters.  Someone has to pay for all that
 4     advertising.
 5  337                  You don't dream for a minute, do you,
 6     that when Chevy advertises on CTV that some of the cost
 7     of that advertising is not passed down to the consumer? 
 8     I mean we are all, I'm sure, not naive enough to
 9     believe that.
10  338                  Let us not overlook the fact that
11     every dollar earned by a CBC employee -- the vanishing
12     breed, God love them -- every dollar goes -- about
13     $0.25 of it goes back to the feds directly in income
14     tax.  So it is not a dead loss all the way for you
15     guys.
16  339                  The cost per Canadian makes the CBC
17     the best deal in town.  There is little chance that it
18     can be replaced.  Take a look at tonight's TV schedule. 
19     I had a look at it.  I didn't bring it with me but you
20     can get it probably in your hotel room.  CBC after 6:30
21     tonight, from 6:30 to midnight, which is the whole
22     night -- would you agree? -- the CBC is all Canadian.
23  340                  NTV, which is the local CTV outlet,
24     except for local news which ends at 7:00, I think, is
25     all American -- all of it American.  ASN in Halifax,


 1     another channel that we get on cable, except local
 2     news, all American.  Edmonton, CITV, whatever, I don't
 3     know what they are affiliated with, except local news,
 4     all American.  Hamilton in Ontario, just down the road
 5     from the Centre, except local news, all American
 6     programming -- all of it; 100 per cent.
 7  341                  If you just landed here from
 8     somewhere and watched television, you would be
 9     hard-pressed to guess you were in St. John's or you
10     were in Chicoutimi or you were in Regina and not in
11     Duluth or Americville(ph).  For a long time, the cable
12     systems provided us here in Newfoundland with ABC and
13     CBS and NBC from Detroit -- 550 murders a year; two
14     million people, around the same size as Toronto.
15  342                  I interviewed the mayor one time.  He
16     told me that there were 900,000 unregistered handguns
17     in Detroit.  I can only imagine the results of pressing
18     that city's culture on Holyrood -- 2,000 people.  I
19     live there, 40 miles out of town.  On a good day,
20     downwind, I can get CBC transmitter and radio.  I have
21     to talk to them about that.
22     --- Laughter / Rires
23  343                  MR. BROWN:  No wonder our cops
24     demanded and just recently got handguns, another loss
25     in our cultural turn.  That kind of uninterpreted


 1     broadcasting would have young people believe that
 2     murder was no big deal, that it happens every day, that
 3     every murderer is a black man -- lessons in racism here
 4     without even having to pay for it; total immersion
 5     education in racism yet.  A small population lying
 6     cheek by jowl with a large one makes Canada an easy
 7     target.  An even smaller population here in
 8     Newfoundland and Labrador makes our cultural situation
 9     critical.
10  344                  We sang "Thank God We Are Surrounded
11     by Water".  Tom Call wrote it -- the same guy who
12     produced that program I mentioned earlier.  We have it
13     with a certain security because there was the water,
14     but the radio and television signals find that no
15     barrier and so we have to rush to our own defence.  It
16     may already be too late.  While we desperately need the
17     CBC to bring us Canadian culture, we need even more to
18     remind us of our own.  If not them, that is to say the
19     CBC, then who?  You?  The feds?
20  345                  I must say I called the CRTC office
21     on that one number that was given on the television
22     screen very quickly and I was a little shocked when the
23     young woman who answered the phone -- I found out she
24     was in Halifax -- mispronounced Newfoundland.  Now, you
25     know, that is very funny.  That is very funny.  I am


 1     glad you smiled at that.  Can you imagine anyone saying
 2     "Ontereeo" and being taken seriously?  But it's okay to
 3     say "Newfandland", especially if you are in Halifax.  I
 4     told her I was offended and she was nonplussed.  I have
 5     her name but I am not going to mention that.  That is
 6     neither here nor there.
 7  346                  But you know, on radio last spring, I
 8     heard Rafe Mair(ph) and Terry Milewsky and a
 9     professorial person from the University of Calgary,
10     which I think might be an oxymoron, discussing hate
11     literature.  Somebody mentioned hatred literature here
12     today.  They were talking about the fact that people
13     were putting out on the Internet and so on, racial,
14     anti-semitic, anti-french, anti-black, and so on jokes. 
15     Milewsky turned to the professorial person and said,
16     "You wouldn't have stopped a Newfie joke, would you?"
17     She said, "Oh, heavens know.  It's okay to do that." 
18     You can't be more Canadian than that!
19  347                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  It is with great
20     trepidation that I interrupt somebody who has the
21     reputation you have with the CBC but I have allowed you
22     to go considerably over your time.
23  348                  MR. BROWN:  I thank you for your
24     indulgence.  Thank you very much.
25  349                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  I should say the


 1     reason I smiled when you talked about mispronouncing
 2     Newfoundland is that it is not the first time that we
 3     have heard about people mispronouncing words at some of
 4     these sessions.  Of course, I was screeched in here a
 5     number of years ago and told the proper pronunciation
 6     of the name and the province.  But everybody doesn't
 7     always get it, whether you have been screeched in or
 8     not.
 9  350                  MR. BROWN:  It's easy if you remember
10     it rhymes with understand and I think it's key to
11     understand.
12  351                  DR. FRENCH:  As if you know how to
13     pronounce understand.
14     --- Laughter / Rires
15  352                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, let me ask
16     you a quick question.
17  353                  MR. BROWN:  Yes.
18  354                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  You mentioned in
19     your presentation that if the CBC here had to make a
20     choice of spending more money on culture as opposed to
21     news, it perhaps should do that.
22  355                  My understanding -- and I stand to be
23     corrected here -- is that St. John's is probably one of
24     the few places in the country where the CBC local news
25     actually gets a higher audience than the private


 1     broadcaster.
 2  356                  MR. BROWN:  That's true, yes.
 3  357                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  So it would appear
 4     that they do a pretty good job of doing local news
 5     here.
 6  358                  MR. BROWN:  Oh, I have no quarrel
 7     with that.
 8  359                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  So if you were to
 9     do what you suggest, my question is:  How would you
10     draw that appropriate balance?
11  360                  MR. BROWN:  Well, I just think that
12     the daily happenings of unfortunately that young woman
13     in Washington and that clown who calls himself the
14     President -- you see, I thought Bill C-55 referred to
15     the President's age.
16  361                  I thought that -- you know, I think
17     that the culture is more important than a kneejerk
18     response to an event that happened which may or may not
19     be important to our daily lives.  I think knowing where
20     we came from and how we got here is more important than
21     the fact that somebody has a motorcar accident or there
22     was a barn fire or something yesterday.
23  362                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  So if you were in
24     the position to have to make those choices then, how
25     would you go about that?


 1  363                  MR. BROWN:  I think if I were the
 2     Director of the CBC in Newfoundland, I would have a
 3     helluva job.  I would want to do the loaves and fishes
 4     number.  You are familiar with that?
 5     --- Laughter / Rires
 6  364                  MR. BROWN:  Oh, good.  I don't know. 
 7     I think you have cut his money so far back that he is
 8     unable to fish or cut bait and so it would be an
 9     unenviable job.
10  365                  Now, you see before CBC television
11     came along, the private sector used to broadcast a fair
12     amount of local music and drama and so on, but they
13     never paid the performers.  They got them all for
14     nothing.
15  366                  They had a Glee Club.  The University
16     Glee Club used to present regularly on what was then
17     called CJON TV -- it is now NTV -- and it was great. 
18     Lovely programs and we all enjoyed them.  But if you
19     were a performer or if you were an artist or if you
20     were a musician, you had better have a day job.  So I
21     don't know that there is enough money left in the kitty
22     here to do anything but turn the fire on every morning. 
23     I rather suspect it is cut back pretty severely.
24  367                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, thank you
25     very much.  We appreciate your presentation.


 1                                                        1503
 2  368                  MS MOORE:  I would like to call our
 3     next presenter, Ms Gisella Kumar please.
 5  369                  MS KUMAR:  Mr. Chairman, ladies and
 6     gentlemen.  I am very pleased to have this opportunity
 7     to say how I feel about the CBC.
 8  370                  What does the CBC mean to me?  In my
 9     case, it is the radio because I do not have television. 
10     The CBC means everything to me, whether I am driving my
11     car or staying at home, whether I am living in remote
12     areas or move to another province and, even when I am
13     bedridden, unable to do anything else, the CBC is
14     there, a steady companion, intellectual stimulation,
15     all sorts of knowledge and information, food for
16     thought, linked to the rest of the world, a means of
17     relaxation with classical music.
18  371                  I have a radio in every room of the
19     house and even two radios in the kitchen and the
20     bedroom.  One is set on the AM dial, the other on the
21     FM.
22     --- Laughter / Rires
23  372                  MS KUMAR:  I often adjust my work
24     schedule to suit the time slot of specific programs and
25     when I wake up too early in the morning, "CBC


 1     Overnight" is there providing me with an interesting
 2     window on the world.
 3  373                  What do I expect of the CBC?  I
 4     expect the CBC to remain a public broadcasting
 5     corporation with no advertising, unbiased and free of
 6     political interference, and I also expect quality
 7     programming for both national and regional
 8     broadcasting, reflecting the diversity of our heritage
 9     and culture and the distinctiveness of every province.
10  374                  What are current shortcomings? 
11     Drastic government spending cuts have led to the
12     elimination of outstanding programs which are being
13     replaced with others with contents of inferior quality,
14     too many programs being repeated too many times and the
15     total lack of local representation on weekends.
16  375                  I consider a local presence seven
17     days a week as vital as food, shelter and medicare. 
18     Without it, we are abandoned and cut off from the
19     happenings around us, which can even lead to dangerous
20     situations.
21  376                  Not so long ago, I headed out by car
22     on a Saturday morning.  Before too long, I found myself
23     in the middle of a complete white-out in a full-blown
24     blizzard, unable to see anything and wondering how I
25     would make it back home safely.  Not a word on CBC


 1     radio all weekend long about hazardous driving
 2     conditions.  Can you imagine how I felt?
 3  377                  As far as the replacement of
 4     "Morningside" is concerned, I miss the Canadian
 5     heartbeat, the human element of Canadians exploring
 6     other parts of Canada and Canadians of different
 7     cultural backgrounds learning about each other.  I am
 8     not thrilled with what I would call the dry reporting
 9     style of general interest topics presented by the new
10     program "This Morning".  In particular, I wonder why we
11     need two hosts simultaneously bouncing off each other,
12     saying their names repeatedly throughout the morning
13     session.
14  378                  What do I expect of the government? 
15     I expect the Government of Canada to recognize the
16     importance of the CBC as a cultural institution with a
17     mandate to preserve our Canadian identity, enrich our
18     knowledge of each other living in different provinces
19     and to use the CBC as an essential link for the unity
20     of Canada.
21  379                  Last but not least, I would like to
22     say a word about those brave representatives of CBC
23     radio on the air and their support staff, hosts like
24     Jim Brown locally, and Rock Clipperton(ph), Dave
25     Stevens and John De Charity(ph) at the national level,


 1     just to mention a few.  With their many years of
 2     experience, they are not only providing us with an
 3     absolutely outstanding service, even in the most
 4     difficult times as we can see right now, but they are
 5     people with heart and soul, not just the wonderful
 6     voices we hear.
 7  380                  They have the rare ability to provide
 8     backbone and integrity.  Often, they are facing
 9     controversial topics and listeners, all the while
10     having to remain impartial.  They provide us listeners
11     with the only forum to speak out and to make our voices
12     heard.  These wonderful employees of the CBC need to be
13     treated well and to be paid well for a most demanding
14     job so that we can all continue to enjoy their
15     programming.
16  381                  My plea to the CRTC and the
17     Government of Canada:  You owe it to the Canadian
18     taxpayer to recognize the importance of the CBC as a
19     public broadcasting corporation deserving support and
20     100 per cent funding as one of the most important
21     cultural institutions in Canada.
22  382                  Thank you for listening.
23  383                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
24     much, Ms Kumar.
25  384                  I am going to suggest we take about a


 1     10-minute break and then we will pick up with
 2     Mme Ragotte and continue on through the session.
 3  385                  Brien, you are shaking your head no?
 4     --- Off microphone / Sans microphone
 5  386                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.
 6     --- Recess / Pause
 7  387                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 8     much.  We will return to our agenda now.
 9  388                  Ms Moore, can we have the next
10     presenter?
11  389                  Could we have quiet in the back
12     please?
13  390                  Thank you.
14  391                  MS MOORE:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
15  392                  I would like to call Mr. Frank Smith
16     please.
17                                                        1517
18  393                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Smith.
20  394                  MR. SMITH:  Good afternoon.  I would
21     like to address a number of different issues.
22  395                  I am going to begin with one that may
23     seem strange in Newfoundland but I will do it anyway. 
24     It's the French-English issues.
25  396                  CBC does fulfill its role as a


 1     national public broadcaster, particularly CBC radio,
 2     but in my view it could do better by decreasing the
 3     ghettoization of these media.  English-language radio
 4     and television rarely use francophones, even bilingual
 5     ones, and I suspect that French-language services
 6     rarely use anglophones in their programming.  Why?
 7  397                  If there is one single way in which 
 8     Canada is demonstrably different from our neighbour to
 9     the south, it is the French fact.  Change may be
10     coming, but ever so slowly.
11  398                  On CBC Two, we have the introduction
12     of music for a while in early evening with Daniel
13     Charbonneau, a refreshingly different sound.  On CBC
14     One, we have a new segment of a program with Bernard
15     Saint-Laurent, also coming from Montreal.  On CBC
16     television, the face of Francine Pelletier is familiar
17     on "The Fifth Estate".
18  399                  Is that all the francophones?  I
19     believe so but this country is 20-25 per cent
20     francophone.  Why the underrepresentation when other
21     ethnic minorities are so carefully represented?  The
22     recent series of TV programs about the lives of both
23     English-speaking and French-speaking Canadians is a
24     helpful step in the right direction.
25  400                  Regional radio and television:  I was


 1     very pleased to hear Harry Brown's remarks.  The CBC's
 2     presence in the regions is essential for the private
 3     broadcasters do not have the interest in culture
 4     displayed by the CBC.  I speak from personal experience
 5     of working with some of these private broadcasters and
 6     also with the CBC.
 7  401                  The regional CBC radio in particular
 8     enables local talent to be showcased and to obtain
 9     performing experience before it is quite ready for
10     national exposure.  But budgets are severely limited. 
11     For example, the regional musical program,
12     "Musicraft"(ph) has sufficient budget to feature the
13     Newfoundland Symphony Orchestra only once per year even
14     thought the orchestra is capable of attracting Canadian
15     artists of international calibre such as André Laplante
16     and John Camirand-Parker(ph) to play with it.
17  402                  Furthermore, with recent
18     technological developments in transmission and
19     communication, more, not fewer, programs could
20     originate in the regions.  Many programs on radio
21     originate from Vancouver and Winnipeg for example and
22     there has been a veritable explosion of TV programs
23     from the east coast, particularly Halifax in recent
24     years.
25  403                  From this city, I know of two


 1     national radio programs originating here:  "The Great
 2     Eastern" and "That Time of the Night".  There may be
 3     others and I do believe that TV's "Land and Sea" has
 4     been seen outside Newfoundland.
 5  404                  About CBC programming:  CBC radio
 6     programming is different from other broadcasters in
 7     Canada but has similarities to BBC in the U.K. and to
 8     PBS in the U.S.A. and that is as it should be.  No
 9     commercial interruptions.  Stress is on quality
10     programming.  Music is well-served by CBC but drama has
11     little exposure and neither do prose or poetry reading
12     or programs aimed at the next generation of listeners,
13     after all, the children.  I well recall listening
14     myself to BBC children's programs that were fascinating
15     and led to me becoming a regular radio listener.
16  405                  I think TV could do a better job by
17     showing classic, Canadian and foreign films. 
18     Sub-titles could be acceptable if the quality of the
19     film justified them.  I also miss programs which we had
20     in the past such as the three-hour long music on a
21     Sunday afternoon on "Sunday Arts Entertainment".
22  406                  I think it appropriate for the CBC to
23     bring us the Olympic Games but I doubt that "Hockey
24     Night in Canada" should pre-empt all other programs on
25     Saturdays.  Could it not be relocated to some service


 1     such as Newsworld?
 2  407                  Repetition of programs:  Some have
 3     criticized CBC's repetition of programs and I agree to
 4     some extent, but there are some programs aired on CBC
 5     One or on CBC Two that I should like to have a chance
 6     to hear when they coincide with something else to which
 7     I want to listen.  Two examples of this are "Quirks and
 8     Quarks" and "Writers and Company", both as far as I
 9     know on CBC One only, at present.
10  408                  Some people have commented on the
11     missing of Peter Gzowski.  My own person whom I heard
12     on CBC at one time and now miss is Peter
13     Diefenbach(ph), a recent arrival.
14  409                  Thank you very much for the
15     opportunity to make this presentation.
16  410                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
17     Mr. Smith.
18                                                        1536
19  411                  MS MOORE:  I would like to call
20     Ms Eileen Dicks please.
21  412                  We will move to the next presenter,
22     Ken Pittman please.
24  413                  MR. PITTMAN:  Mr. Chairman, I just
25     want to say thanks on behalf of the Producers


 1     Association of Newfoundland for the opportunity to
 2     present a few ideas or comments to the CRTC for them to
 3     begin their work of the licence review for the CBC.
 4  414                  For the record, my name is Ken
 5     Pittman.  I am the current President of the Producers
 6     Association of Newfoundland.  This organization
 7     represents approximately 30 small production companies
 8     based in St. John's.  Our members produce a full range
 9     of programs from low-budget, experimental and
10     documentary films to short drama and comedy series as
11     well as theatrical feature films.
12  415                  Although some of our members
13     concentrate on making advertising commercials, most are
14     producing regional information and entertainment
15     programs for the television medium.  A good number have
16     had their programs aired on the CBC locally and on the
17     network at times and have produced with or co-produced
18     with the CBC or in association with the CBC.
19  416                  As well, our Association and the
20     individual members and the CBC have cooperated on many
21     projects aimed at developing a local production
22     industry.  For years, there has been a constructive
23     rapport between CBC television in St. John's and local
24     independent producers and both have enjoyed the
25     benefits of this relationship.


 1  417                  We feel that the roots of the
 2     problems with the CBC are not to be found at the
 3     St. John's level, and even at the network level, it
 4     hasn't been all bad news.  Local production talent has,
 5     on occasion, engaged in successful projects at the
 6     network level.  Without a doubt, there have been good
 7     experiences and good people but I think most people
 8     will recognize that there are problems and that there
 9     must be changes if the CBC is to be a meaningful public
10     agency within the Canadian television industry.
11  418                  As producers, we have certain
12     specific concerns about CBC television in particular
13     from an industry point of view.  But besides being
14     producers, we are also citizens of this part of the
15     country and members of the CBC audience and, in this
16     respect, we share with Newfoundlanders and Labradorians
17     in general urgent cultural and communications-related
18     concerns respecting the CBC.
19  419                  In our view, these two perspectives,
20     that of the regional independent producer and that of
21     the Newfoundland and Labrador television viewer, in the
22     final analysis, rely on a shared understanding of the
23     nature of living as a Canadian in this part of the
24     country as well as a shared understanding of the role
25     of the national public institution that is the CBC.


 1  420                  At the root of our perspective is a
 2     belief that national public agencies are intended to
 3     serve the whole country in all its particular
 4     geographical, social and cultural parts, east, west,
 5     north, south, central, urban, rural, old, new, and so
 6     on.  This service, we believe, must acknowledge and
 7     thrive on a view of Canada as a vibrant, vast expanse
 8     of land and people that in and of themselves are the
 9     nation.  Their activity and their aspirations are the
10     national activities and the national aspirations.
11  421                  This is to say that the parts of
12     Canada are not merely suppliers or feeders of a centre
13     or pinnacle or capital that holds itself to be the
14     epitome of who we are and what we are.  Neither are
15     they the many different parts of Canada.  Neither are
16     they the burden or the boondocks of the nation.
17  422                  They are the nation, wherever they
18     are located and whatever population numbers they may
19     represent, and national agencies are agencies that live
20     and flourish throughout the country where the nation
21     actually exists.  They are not at the top of a
22     conceptual or structural pyramid supported by a
23     hierarchy of parts of the country based on a descending
24     order of population, location, history, convenience or
25     economics.


 1  423                  National agencies, if they are truly
 2     national, cannot be centristic in their structure, in
 3     their programming or in their thinking.  In other
 4     words, public agencies like the CBC are not supposed to
 5     be centred in Ottawa or Toronto or anywhere else.  They
 6     are supposed to be present in Ottawa and Toronto and
 7     throughout the whole country.  When they cease to be
 8     present in all of the country, they are no longer ours,
 9     no longer national and certainly no longer public, and
10     no matter what they do, they will not succeed in
11     fulfilling their national public mandate.
12  424                  So in answer to the first question
13     suggested for this discussion, how well does the CBC
14     fulfill its national mandate, not well at all in our
15     view because it is behaving neither as a national
16     broadcaster nor as a public broadcaster.  Whatever the
17     vision and progress it may have manifested in earlier
18     decades, in more recent years, in spite of the effort
19     of individual creative people within its ranks and
20     individual program success stories, the CBC has lost
21     its public and national vision.
22  425                  It seems to be gathering the wagons
23     in a circle by setting up administratively convenient
24     so-called regional centres of production with which to
25     feed the network.  This seems to be a part of the


 1     strategy of survival for it does seem that the CBC
 2     these days has one goal, survival, and perhaps it has
 3     lost sight of its real goal, public broadcasting.
 4  426                  In plain language, if we still had a
 5     national public broadcaster, we would still have a
 6     thriving CBC television system in Newfoundland and
 7     Labrador, not necessarily the same shape or size it was
 8     before the federal government budget cuts and the
 9     internal CBC cuts of the nineties, but nevertheless a
10     thriving public broadcaster present here where we live,
11     with a reasonable share of resources and a respectable
12     degree of decision-making power with which to
13     participate in local television-making here where we
14     live.
15  427                  In the early- and mid-nineties,
16     notwithstanding the absolute clear popularity of CBC
17     television among Newfoundland and Labrador viewers, the
18     CBC betrayed its dedicated audience by removing the
19     screen time, the financial resources and the
20     programming control necessary to make the local
21     programs that had been the cause of such strong public
22     support.  Instead of protecting one of the best
23     demonstrations of CBC success, the national management
24     threw it aside and instead shifted its resources to
25     Halifax, the new centre of the so-called region.


 1  428                  Since that shift of direction,
 2     decided elsewhere but here, CBC television in
 3     Newfoundland and Labrador, in spite of the continuing
 4     efforts of individuals within the local operation, the
 5     CBC has become less and less effective, less and less
 6     in touch with its audience, and less and less capable
 7     of partnering with local talent to provide programming
 8     that satisfies and sustains its audience.
 9  429                  From the standpoint of the local
10     independent producer, the irony of this backward
11     direction of the CBC is really exasperating.  Just as
12     other national agencies in the television production
13     industry, such as the Canadian Television Fund, are
14     becoming available and just as the provincial
15     government is taking major initiatives to foster the
16     local industry, the local CBC is becoming less and less
17     capable of being a player.
18  430                  Where once the local CBC was the only
19     player with the resources and the guts to cooperate in
20     ventures with local independent producers, these days,
21     the same CBC has become the missing link.  The simple
22     but incredibly harmful problem is that the CBC in
23     Newfoundland does not have the ability to purchase and
24     broadcast local programs on a regular basis, at a
25     normal licence fee rate, from local independent


 1     producers.  Only the national network has the authority
 2     for such acquisitions.
 3  431                  Not only does this prevent the
 4     Newfoundland audience from having access to television
 5     programming that reflects our distinct experience and
 6     situation but it also prevents our indigenous
 7     production industry from growing.  When the local CBC
 8     is incapable of paying for a broadcast licence, a whole
 9     complex of financing is blocked.  For example, because
10     the Canadian Television Fund, one of the richest
11     investment funds for Canadian production, requires
12     pre-sales to broadcasters to trigger its funds, it
13     remains out of reach for most local producers.
14  432                  Other options besides the local CBC
15     do exist in the form of several specialty cable
16     channels that are acquiring programs across the country
17     but they are not in this province or this production
18     community.  No Bravo!  No Movie Network.  No YTV.  No
19     WTN.  No Vision TV.  No Life Channel.  Not even HGTV.
20  433                  So the contacts and the relationships
21     that produce broadcast licences for producers in other
22     parts of the country are entirely missing from the
23     Newfoundland situation.  At best, these specialty
24     channels represent a sporadic and doubtful opportunity
25     for local producers.


 1  434                  The CBC, the public broadcaster, is
 2     or should be our first and most natural access to the
 3     viewing public under any circumstance.  But with this
 4     starkly unlevel playing field, the responsibility
 5     becomes even more urgent.  It is not just a matter of
 6     the CBC filling a hole in the financing structure of a
 7     given project, the inability of the local outlet of the
 8     national public broadcaster to play a fully active role
 9     in the development of our indigenous television
10     industry is a contradiction of the agency's mandate.
11  435                  What better way for Canadians to
12     communicate with Canadians than to make and present on
13     its own television screens programming that is distinct
14     and authentically expressive of the particular place in
15     this country where we live?  The national public
16     broadcaster should be a permanent, creative and
17     financial partner in the local industry, above all, by
18     providing the window through which people in this
19     province as well as throughout the country are
20     entertained and informed about Newfoundland and
21     Labrador by programs that are produced here.
22  436                  A thriving local production industry
23     producing first for Newfoundland and Labrador viewers
24     grows in the volume and in the quality of what it
25     produces because it learns to respond to the audience


 1     immediately around it as it experiences the successes
 2     and the failures of communicating with that audience. 
 3     Likewise, the audience develops a habit of responding
 4     to entertainment and information programming that
 5     reflects their own experience, concerns, and
 6     aspirations.
 7  437                  As the Quebec model demonstrates,
 8     this percolating process between television maker and
 9     audience over time produces, at the local level,
10     television of proven imagination and craft.  Sooner or
11     later, this expression overflows beyond the place where
12     it has succeeded and begins to attract audiences in
13     other parts of the country.  At this stage, that which
14     was local programming continues to thrive as such but
15     it also becomes programming for the rest of the
16     country.
17  438                  It is not a commercial broadcaster
18     who has the mandate to dedicate resources to a
19     long-term cultural and industrial development process
20     such as this.  No, this is the place for the national
21     public broadcaster.  This is the role the CBC should
22     play in the future, the role of facilitating the growth
23     of indigenous television communications throughout the
24     country in all its variety and richness and difference. 
25     This is Canadians talking to Canadians.


 1  439                  In summary, the CBC should forget
 2     about chasing after ratings and advertisers and forget
 3     about imitating American television, whatever the
 4     financial consequences.  It should get back out into
 5     Canada and dedicate its resources, however limited, to
 6     being a part of the national communication process that
 7     could be the heart of indigenous Canadian television
 8     programming.
 9  440                  Instead of giving the impression that
10     they see us as poor, dependent cousins looking for
11     handouts, they should come to realize that they are the
12     ones who receive a public handout and are asked to
13     administer it with a vision, a vision that celebrates
14     the dynamic creativity and initiative that typifies our
15     full breadth of a country and the full breadth of our
16     television industry everywhere in Canada, not just in
17     the so-called centres.
18  441                  Perhaps if the CBC were visibly
19     active in our communities and our neighbourhoods, they
20     would be less vulnerable to unfair treatment by the
21     federal government and less likely to suffer financial
22     cutbacks and therefore less confused and obsessed with
23     surviving as a Corporation.  Then perhaps they could be
24     more passionate about and more focused on being our
25     public broadcaster with a unique vision and application


 1     that is distinctly Canadian and meaningful everywhere
 2     in Canada.
 3  442                  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
 4  443                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
 5     Mr. Pittman.  Interesting presentation.
 6  444                  Let's say it is September 1999 and
 7     Mr. Beatty has just stepped down from his job and we
 8     have given you the job.  What three things would you do
 9     to overcome the problems you just outlined?
10  445                  MR. PITTMAN:  I think the first thing
11     to do would be --
12  446                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Would you turn your
13     microphone on?
14  447                  MR. PITTMAN:  The first thing to do
15     is to put aside what exists in the status quo and to
16     look at the Broadcasting Act and to see how, by
17     individualizing and reducing the scale of things, you
18     could bring creative and interesting television to the
19     Canadian public.
20  448                  I think you would have to explore a
21     lot of field activity where the program material would
22     be coming in from all over the country through simple
23     technology and through ensembles of producing people,
24     so that instead of having a studio mentality and studio
25     organization parameters, you would assume that you are


 1     the broadcaster, the conduit of all of this activity
 2     and information and entertainment, and you would create
 3     a connection between all of what is going on and what
 4     could go on at a diverse and small scale level and make
 5     some kind of a flow of that in through your technology
 6     to put it in front of the Canadian people.
 7  449                  So I would see a lot of freelance
 8     ensemble-type shooting groups and writing groups and
 9     performing groups around the country supplying a lot of
10     the material as independents and freelancers to the CBC
11     to share the expression that exists in a community in
12     northern B.C. with a community that exists in southern
13     Newfoundland, so that what you are doing is you are
14     truly a conduit of the whole dynamic process of motion
15     picture expression that is going on around the country
16     and motion picture communication.
17  450                  So it really would require a complete
18     upside down approach.  Turn everything on its head and
19     start all over.
20  451                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Is that one, two,
21     and three all wrapped up in one?
22  452                  MR. PITTMAN:  I guess.
23  453                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  Thanks a lot
24     for your presentation.
25                                                        1539


 1  454                  MS MOORE:  I would like to call
 2     Ms Neville Smith please.
 4  455                  MS SMITH:  I speak, in contrast, as a
 5     mere individual, as a listener and a viewer, but I do
 6     incorporate the views of several of my working friends
 7     who couldn't be here.
 8  456                  I feel I am talking about a close
 9     friend in intensive care and I hope the doctors know
10     what they are doing.  Perhaps I am already at the wake. 
11     The close friend, of course, is the CBC.
12  457                  I came to Canada in 1948 and the CBC
13     has been the main instrument of making me feel
14     thoroughly Canadian even if my accent hasn't changed in
15     half a century.  There are still immigrants who find
16     the same.  For me, it began with the incomparable old
17     "Rawhide".
18  458                  I have lived, worked and visited
19     every province and territory.  I have travelled by bush
20     plane, on ski and float, by dog team and even a
21     100-year-old birch bark canoe.  It was CBC that helped
22     me appreciate the history and the diversity and make
23     sense of some of this splendid country, and the future
24     grows out of the past.
25  459                  I would talk mainly of CBC.  A lot of


 1     what I wanted to say has been said.  Local programming: 
 2     I agree thoroughly with virtually everything that has
 3     been said by people far more knowledgeable than myself. 
 4     So I won't go into it.
 5  460                  National programs help us understand
 6     other communities.  For local, I had referred to our
 7     community.  We need to understand the other communities
 8     in this federated country if we are to be citizens of a
 9     democracy.
10  461                  Then I list several of the programs. 
11     Some of them have been mentioned and the need for it to
12     be a forum for exchange of the parts that make up the
13     whole.  I would just like to mention "As It Happens" on
14     radio, a favourite program I rarely miss because I am
15     constantly surprised by the number of Americans who
16     phone talk-back, obviously appreciative of at least
17     this Canadian product.
18  462                  The rare time, two or three over -- I
19     don't know -- thirty years, I have called, I have been
20     surprised by how many of my scattered friends have
21     heard me.  From time to time, I hear one of them.  CBC
22     stretches and should continue to stretch across the
23     land.
24  463                  What are the shared emotions when we
25     hear an Allan Maitland reading of "The Shepherd" on


 1     Christmas eve?  All this pulls us together and we are
 2     in danger of fragmenting.  It helps us express our
 3     common concerns, for instance, regarding health and
 4     regarding the environment.
 5  464                  Sadly, as has been mentioned by many
 6     others, I have noticed steady deterioration in recent
 7     years due to cutbacks:  increasing repeats and music
 8     fill-ins.  Since the strike, I have felt really
 9     deprived of an essential element of my day, hence, my
10     opening remarks.
11  465                  I have been a bit disturbed to learn
12     from a bilingual friend that the messages on CBC radio
13     and Radio-Canada are often not on the same wavelength. 
14     I am not speaking of band frequency.  How can we
15     understand each other if items are slanted by some
16     hierarchical decisions which reinforces differences
17     instead of interpreting these to each other?  We need
18     more exchange and some of these ideas have been
19     mentioned.
20  466                  I would put in a plug for
21     Radio-Canada International.  Once in Uganda on a
22     CIDA-sponsored project, a young Ugandan asked me to get
23     a more detailed schedule as he tried to listen, along
24     with his friends, to Canada as often as he could.
25  467                  Now briefly to CBC TV which I watch


 1     very little.  I am thoroughly turned off by repeated,
 2     often hyperactive frenetic advertising.  No wonder
 3     attention spans decrease.  The news gets briefer,
 4     information is a few bare facts without background
 5     allowing little comprehension of the whole, images
 6     replace words, news is where the cameraman is.  But I
 7     must admit coverage of catastrophes like the Ice Storm
 8     and the Manitoba floods did help unite us.
 9  468                  I do watch PBS much more than CBC TV
10     or any commercial station where the advertising is far
11     more aggressive.  On PBS, the sponsors are less
12     intrusive.  I am happy to pay a little towards their
13     programs.  I suppose it is unrealistic to think, in our
14     huge country and our small population, we could ever
15     pay licences as the British do.
16  469                  Of programs I haven't enumerated
17     before, obviously, content will vary with subject and
18     the way it is presented and will change with the times,
19     and the media must be adaptable, which brings me to the
20     use of the Internet.
21  470                  Canada must ensure its place among
22     the nations shaping this information highway into the
23     21st century.  Canadian programs, prepared for CBC
24     radio and television, would increase our sphere of
25     influence across our land and around the world when


 1     transmitted this way.  All this, radio, TV, and
 2     Internet, needs adequate public funding rather than
 3     private.
 4  471                  Private would return us to the
 5     pre-democratic days of royal patronage -- for royal,
 6     read "monopolistic media moguls, big business, multi-
 7     and transnational corporations" -- and this funding
 8     should be sufficient to allow local production and
 9     national production.
10  472                  Very briefly because I don't
11     understand it but management should obviously be by a
12     board, at real arm's length from the government,
13     without political patronage appointments.  It should
14     represent all areas of the country and avoid or at
15     least balance the input of special interest groups.
16  473                  In summary, I both think and feel --
17     and I stress "feel" as well as "think" -- that CBC as a
18     public broadcasting system, publicly funded and
19     managed, is vital to Canada, with a wide range of
20     programs to reinforce our community life at each level,
21     each level of community, whether it be local, national
22     or international, by exchanges.
23  474                  Thank you.
24  475                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
25     much, Ms Smith.


 1                                                        1554
 2  476                  MS MOORE:  I would like to call
 3     Ms Martha Anne Woodworth please.
 5  477                  MS WOODWORTH:  Good afternoon,
 6     Mr. Chairman.  I have been up since about 5:00 this
 7     morning and briefly prepared a few notes.  Many of the
 8     issues that have been addressed by other people are
 9     things that I have covered.
10  478                  The first and foremost, I think, is a
11     strong, non-partisan president needs to be appointed to
12     make decisive and responsible public broadcasting the
13     major player representing the Canadian voice in
14     maintaining and promoting our national heritage in all
15     focuses of media.
16  479                  Local programming:  I think most
17     people here heard Harry Brown.  I also hail, at the
18     present, from Holyrood.  Local programming is so vital
19     to our province, Newfoundland and Labrador.  I am a
20     listener.  I have always been a listener.
21  480                  I can think back to the days of "The
22     Happy Gang", to getting the Opera, the Met on the CBC
23     in the Saturday afternoons.  I was brought up with my
24     family as CBC listeners and, to me, as just a national
25     voice, I feel that CBC has been a major educational


 1     influence from the time I have been a young girl to my
 2     present date.
 3  481                  I am a former faculty instructor that
 4     has become disabled physically and challenged,
 5     obviously, and I find that CBC has been the one thing
 6     that has kept me on track, listening to all the
 7     different shows, the science, the "Quirks and Quarks",
 8     Peter Gzowski, all the people, both on TV and radio,
 9     because I went from an academic career to all of a
10     sudden a very inactive position in my life.
11  482                  I found that this station has
12     contributed so much to my personal knowledge.  The
13     former lady mentioned "As It Happens".  I strongly feel
14     -- I heard a story last night, and probably many of you
15     did, about a man from Ohio that had preserved a blue
16     pike for 37 years in his deep freeze and, of course,
17     ridiculed by many, his wife included.  Thirty-seven
18     years and now scientists are searching for -- have that
19     specimen and the DNA from the preserved 37-year-old
20     pike that this man had been -- this had been his
21     livelihood, the fishing of this particular species and
22     they had thought it to be extinct.  Now, that fish has
23     gone to the proper place where scientists can look at
24     it and decide what mutations have taken place.
25  483                  That is just one little, small


 1     example of how time -- I think, over time, things need
 2     to be -- we need to remember the Harry Browns.  We need
 3     to remember the Knowlton Nashes, the Elwie Yosts, all
 4     the people, the artists, the superb journalists and the
 5     ordinary Canadians that could turn to either radio or
 6     TV and know that the information that is provided is
 7     backed by a highly qualified team of researchers and
 8     the resources that they bring as team players certainly
 9     can only be continued and expanded upon.
10  484                  I think, for the future, the focus
11     should be on national and international community
12     programs.  I feel Newfoundland and Labrador has had so
13     many cuts.  There are so many good shows, good people,
14     good topics.  Creativity is being lost.  I feel very
15     sad that this has happened over the past few years and
16     I also believe that we need to be that public
17     broadcaster that CBC has always been.  From my early
18     days, CBC has been the area of interest.
19  485                  In conclusion, I cannot understand
20     that our Heritage Minister, Sheila Copps, has been
21     fighting so vigorously.  I agree with what she is doing
22     with the split-run and Bill C-55 -- it was passed last
23     night -- but I cannot understand why she is not out
24     there fighting for our heritage and our culture in
25     terms of what is happening to our public broadcasting


 1     system.
 2  486                  I think the budget cuts of this and
 3     past previous governments have brought into effect just
 4     totally -- well, it is inconceivable what they are
 5     doing.  There has to be a balance, I understand, but I
 6     certainly would not want to listen to "As It Happens"
 7     or "Our Gardening Show" and listen to Peter Scott and
 8     be interrupted by an ad.  Certainly, there should be no
 9     ads on radio.
10  487                  I understand that the TV has to be
11     able to compete when the funding is not there. 
12     However, there still should be some balance between the
13     amount of advertising and the Canadian content and, as
14     we know, many of the other stations tend to have the
15     least amount of Canadian content.  With the budget
16     cuts, obviously, the money is just not being provided
17     for the film people to do the kind of work that they
18     are trained and have the incentive to do and to keep
19     this country together.
20  488                  Heaven knows, we are living in a
21     world -- as one previous speaker said, we are going
22     into a new century:  the millennium; 2001 will be upon
23     us and we have enough American content.  We have had
24     enough American influence from our -- if you go to a
25     mall -- in so many aspects of our life, and certainly,


 1     Newfoundland is as unique as every other province in
 2     Canada and far different from areas in the United
 3     States.
 4  489                  I have travelled throughout Europe
 5     and the States.  I have taught in England.  I have
 6     spent time -- I have been at Armed Forces bases in
 7     Germany, in Lahr and Baden-Baden.  It was Radio
 8     International that was the voice.  It was always there
 9     to be heard and I really feel that CBC should be given
10     special, special consideration because it is a special
11     form of broadcasting and especially to this isolated
12     province so rich in cultural heritage.
13  490                  Thank you.
14  491                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
15     much, Ms Woodworth, and for your efforts to come here
16     today.
17                                                        1619
18  492                  MS MOORE:  I would like to call
19     Mr. Frank O'Leary please.
21  493                  MR. O'LEARY:  Mr. Chairman, before I
22     get into the meat of my presentation, I should say that
23     I feel perhaps I am in the wrong room because possibly
24     I inhabit a different mental universe, but most of the
25     presentations today certainly seemed to be arguing


 1     persuasively for more CBC, better CBC, enhanced,
 2     revamped, improved, and so forth.
 3  494                  I have reached the point in my
 4     attitude towards the CBC that I virtually want no CBC. 
 5     Now, I am talking of a narrow, special interest,
 6     special subject.  I am talking about the way in which
 7     CBC covers religion and specifically the Roman Catholic
 8     faith.  This afternoon, I think, is a useful exercise
 9     but perhaps not for the reasons perhaps that you might
10     think.
11  495                  It seems to me that amongst the
12     presenters there is a pretty universal opinion that CBC
13     is good and we want more of it.  We want it to survive
14     and so on and so forth.  Yet, the Canadian public has
15     already voted with their feet in the sense that CBC's
16     market share is as low as we all know it to be.
17  496                  That seems to me to be a huge paradox
18     and discrepancy that everybody in this room is
19     promoting, encouraging, supporting CBC.  But the
20     Canadian out there in the street, as Mr. Lieb referred
21     to before, the official reality versus the street-level
22     reality, these people don't watch CBC.  As a result
23     perhaps they don't know that these hearings are on. 
24     They have given up on CBC for various reasons of their
25     own and therefore they are not likely to be here


 1     presenting, pro or con.
 2  497                  Now, I would like to get into the
 3     meat of the presentation.  My comments are quite
 4     severely critical and I hope that since I am
 5     representing a point of view which you haven't heard
 6     too much of this afternoon, you might allow me a little
 7     bit of leeway if I run a little bit long.  I noticed
 8     that Mr. Brown was given about 25 minutes.  I will
 9     begin.
10  498                  A sham, a fraud, a pretence, an
11     exercise in hypocrisy.  No practising Roman Catholic in
12     Canada has the slightest illusion that these hearings
13     will make the least difference in how our church and
14     our faith is represented by our national broadcaster. 
15     We will continue to be forced to pay our tax dollars to
16     an institution which mocks and maligns our most
17     cherished beliefs.
18  499                  As it is, we are already compelled
19     against our consciences to subsidize the destruction of
20     unborn life.  We will continue to be forced to
21     subsidize the intellectual justification for that
22     destruction.  This is not democracy.
23  500                  Ladies and gentlemen, my name is
24     Frank O'Leary.  I am a member of the Board of Governors
25     of the Roman Catholic Anti-Defamation League of


 1     Newfoundland.  I have been asked by our Board to make
 2     the League's presentation to you this afternoon.
 3  501                  First, it shouldn't be necessary but
 4     past misrepresentations by the CBC of our League, our
 5     Church and our Bishop require that we make something
 6     clear at the outset.  We are an independent association
 7     of lay people, Canadian citizens, separate from
 8     official Church bodies.
 9  502                  I mention this because whenever
10     ordinary lay Catholic citizens in this province have
11     spoken up to defend their faith and their church, the
12     local CBC has had a penchant for portraying us as
13     mindless, brainwashed toadies taking orders from
14     autocratic clergy, not thinking for ourselves, merely
15     doing what we are told as automatons.  This is
16     something we find highly offensive.
17  503                  While the members of our League are
18     personally faithful to the magisterium, which is the
19     teaching authority of the Church in religious matters,
20     we are neither officially sanctioned nor supported by
21     the Church in this diocese nor by our Bishop, Most
22     Reverend James MacDonald(ph).  We have not been
23     appointed as an official spokesman for "the Church". 
24     We speak for ourselves as Catholic Canadian citizens
25     and we are responsible for the views and the opinions


 1     that we express.
 2  504                  Therefore, the news media who may be
 3     covering these hearings today should not run to our
 4     Bishop to ask what he thinks of the presentation we
 5     made here in the hope of stirring up a little more
 6     controversy as they have so often been wont to do in
 7     the past.
 8  505                  We neither advise nor are we advised
 9     by the Bishop, with whom we have a respectful and
10     cordial but arm's length relationship.  We don't tell
11     him what to preach from the pulpit in the area of
12     theology.  He doesn't tell us what to say to the civil
13     and secular authorities when it comes to defending the
14     reputation and civil rights of Roman Catholics as
15     Canadian citizens.
16  506                  Now, in all my experience of media
17     coverage of religious issues -- and I grew up in
18     England listening to the CBC.  I went to college in the
19     United States for four years.  I lived and worked in
20     four states in the U.S.  I worked for a national
21     newsweekly magazine in Washington, D.C.
22  507                  In all that experience, I have never
23     experienced anything like the anti-religious and
24     specifically anti-Catholic bias evidenced by the CBC. 
25     I am not alone in this view.  If you cannot accept the


 1     point of view of an uncredentialled Roman Catholic from
 2     Newfoundland, perhaps you might accept the opinion of
 3     an American Roman Catholic émigré to Canada whose
 4     credentials ought to be acceptable to you.
 5  508                  Professor Thomas Langdon is the
 6     emeritus Professor of Philosophy at the University of
 7     Toronto at the heart of the central Canadian factory. 
 8     He is a native of Oklahoma in the United States and
 9     Roman Catholics in Oklahoma are much more a minority
10     than in Canada.  Yet, Professor Langdon told me that he
11     had never experienced the degree of anti-Catholicism in
12     Oklahoma that he has discovered in Canada.  As you
13     perhaps already know, Professor Langdon is the
14     President of the National Catholic Civil Rights League
15     of Canada.
16  509                  A presenter who was here earlier this
17     afternoon, Mr. Randy Lieb, who has left now, he wrote a
18     letter to the newspaper about three years ago saying
19     that he is not a Roman Catholic himself, he has no
20     official ties to the Roman Catholic Church, but in his
21     opinion, CBC's coverage of the Mount Cashel Orphanage
22     scandal was something that in Mr. Lieb's opinion
23     amounted to a hate-mongering campaign against the
24     Church and Catholics.
25  510                  So two opinions:  Mr. Lieb, an émigré


 1     from another country, Professor Langdon in Toronto,
 2     also an émigré from another country.
 3  511                  We don't think anyone is Canada
 4     believes that there is the slightest possibility that
 5     the CRTC would ever actually deny a renewal of CBC's
 6     broadcasting licence.  Further, we have no confidence
 7     whatsoever that these hearings will actually result in
 8     any significant modifications to the terms of CBC's
 9     licence or any appreciable change in the manner in
10     which it covers our faith or our Church.
11  512                  We say this because virtually nothing
12     the CRTC Commissionners hear in this room today comes
13     as news to you.  You have known about these drastic
14     shortcomings in the CBC for years and yet, you have
15     done nothing about it.  The CRTC itself has almost
16     emasculated the CBC Ombudsman's office.  The
17     Ombudsman's office has become window-dressing to make
18     complainants think that something is actually being
19     done.  It isn't.
20  513                  Last year, you in the CRTC rejected
21     the application of the world's largest religious
22     broadcaster, The Catholic Network, EWTN, while
23     simultaneously granting a licence to The Playboy
24     Channel.  How can you, the CRTC, possibly expect to
25     retain any credibility whatsoever with the Canadian


 1     public when you proceed thus?  Canada is virtually the
 2     only developed nation in the world where EWTN is
 3     proscribed.
 4  514                  The great Canadian, Marshall McLuhan,
 5     whom Canadian media people love to celebrate, actually
 6     converted to the Roman Catholic faith later in his
 7     life.  In a letter to a priest friend of his, he said
 8     that the modern media is engaged in a Luciferian
 9     conspiracy against the truth.  What we in our League
10     here in Newfoundland have difficulty with is in
11     deciding whether you in the CRTC are merely apologists
12     for the CBC or outright co-conspirators.
13  515                  At its inception, our association
14     defined for itself a narrow mandate:  to attempt to
15     work with the news media, quietly, behind the scenes,
16     in this province only, to achieve fair and balanced
17     coverage of the Roman Catholic Church, its doctrines,
18     its hierarchy, its clergy, its lay people.
19  516                  Of course, we are concerned about the
20     national perspectives, but a realistic assessment of
21     the limited resources available to us as a small group
22     of volunteers who receive no government human rights
23     funding unlike our philosophical opponents, that led us
24     to focus our efforts on the provincial scale only.
25  517                  Does it not strike you as at least


 1     peculiar, if not truly worrisome, that there should
 2     have to even be such an organization as a Roman
 3     Catholic Anti-Defamation League in any Canadian
 4     province today, at the end of the 1990s?  After all,
 5     Roman Catholics are the single largest Christian
 6     denomination in Canada.
 7  518                  In this country, we hear constant
 8     talk about multiculturalism, tolerance, diversity, and
 9     self-worth, and of course we are all now protected so
10     much better than we were in the old days by our much
11     vaunted Charter of Rights and Freedoms.  I should hope
12     you would find it worrisome that Catholics in any
13     province find it necessary to have an Anti-Defamation
14     League.
15  519                  One of the questions, of course, is: 
16     Are we hypersensitive?  Is this overreaction?  Well, we
17     will see.
18  520                  I have to tell you that this League
19     was established in this province five years ago
20     precisely because of the anti-Catholicism, the failures
21     and the misdeeds of the Canadian Broadcasting
22     Corporation in this province which, in our opinion, has
23     so degenerated over the years and has so singly failed
24     to achieve its mandate to unite Canadians that we think
25     it is irredeemable.


 1  521                  Our League believes that the CBC in
 2     its coverage of our Church, our faith, its
 3     representation of these matters to our fellow
 4     Newfoundlanders has not been simply inaccurate, unfair,
 5     and lacking in objectivity, we believe it has been
 6     positively partisan and hostile.
 7  522                  It is our opinion that CBC
 8     Newfoundland falls far short of the high standards and
 9     ideals which CBC policy allegedly sets for its
10     journalists, standards which the CBC constantly boasts
11     of actually having achieved.  In this particular area,
12     religion generally, Roman Catholicism in particular,
13     and the right of religious minority groups to fair
14     treatment, the CBC fails to live up to its mandate to
15     unite Canadians and instead, the CBC itself has become
16     a source of friction and division between Canadians of
17     different faiths.
18  523                  Now, we have in our League experience
19     of various complaints to the CBC, trying to work with
20     them quietly, locally, to settle matters behind the
21     scenes without embarrassing CBC, without going public. 
22     We just get stonewalled repeatedly.  We have had to go
23     to the National Ombudsman.
24  524                  We get a letter back from the
25     National Ombudsman saying, "Yes, you are right.  Bad


 1     judgment on CBC's part.  They shouldn't have aired it. 
 2     I will write a letter to the Vice-President of the
 3     English language CBC."  That's it.  We asked for an on
 4     air broadcast apology.  "No."  No chance.
 5  525                  One or two or five incidents might be
 6     simply aberrations, coincidences, but the number of
 7     instances over the last several years is so high that
 8     it indicates a pattern which reveals a more deeply
 9     rooted problem within the CBC itself.  We wonder:  Is
10     it a personnel problem?  Is it an institutional bias? 
11     Can those two things be separated?
12  526                  At the national level -- I just
13     mention quickly a few things.  The replacement for
14     Peter Gzowski, Michael Enright making a comment such
15     as:  "The Roman Catholic Church is the biggest criminal
16     organization in the world outside of the Mafia."  It
17     didn't even make the headlines for more than a day or
18     so.  It didn't affect Mr. Enright's appointment.
19  527                  The "Father Ted" TV series, which is
20     grotesque.  If they were four lay people living
21     together, four lay men behaving like that, the script
22     wouldn't sustain the comedy of the show.  It is
23     pitiful.  The whole premise is based on the fact that
24     these are priests and it is ludicrous.  It is insulting
25     and people are offended.


 1  528                  Coming up in the fall, there is a TV
 2     series called, I believe, "Our Daily Bread", in which
 3     the star of the show gives the Sacred Host, the Blessed
 4     Sacrament -- what Catholics believe to be the body and
 5     blood of Jesus -- gives the Sacred Host to the dog,
 6     feeds it to her dog.  This has been complained about
 7     already but it is going to go ahead anyway despite the
 8     fact that it offends the most deeply held, most
 9     cherished, sacred beliefs of Catholics.  It doesn't
10     matter.
11  529                  You can insult Catholics all you
12     like.  You can't say things about Innu, about
13     francophones, about any other minority group in Canada
14     today.  People instantly recognize that this is not
15     Canadian tolerance.  This is not multiculturalism. 
16     This is not diversity.  But Catholics are fair game and
17     people are starting to realize that.  It creeps into
18     the most unexpected places within the CBC.
19  530                  While it is not a specifically
20     anti-Catholic incident, the flagship so-called
21     intellectual program of the CBC, "Ideas", with Lister
22     Sinclair, a couple of years ago, had a program -- now,
23     this airs at 9:00 or so in the evening when children,
24     impressionable teenagers, whatever, can hear it.  A
25     special episode devoted entirely to the myth -- or is


 1     it a myth was the premise of the story -- the myth of
 2     female orgasmic ejaculation.
 3  531                  Now, this show came with live sound
 4     effects from a clinical seminar put on by a professor
 5     of feminist studies, a coaching session coaching ladies
 6     to achieve orgasm.  This was an on air broadcast of the
 7     sound effects of a masturbation workshop.
 8  532                  Another program that you wouldn't
 9     expect to find it:  "Quirks and Quarks".  The teachings
10     of the Church, the teachings of the Pope were hauled
11     over the coals for being responsible for overpopulation
12     in the Third World.  It is just rampant.  Now, I will
13     restrict myself very quickly just to outlining several
14     incidents in this province alone.
15  533                  In 1994, a callow academic in her
16     first year of graduate studies was invited to CBC to be
17     interviewed because she held the sexy, catchy
18     hypothesis that incest in Catholic families is
19     attributable not to the sinfulness or criminality or
20     mental illness of the perpetrator, it is attributable
21     to the doctrines and the teachings of the Catholic
22     Church and the teachings of the Pope.  This is why we
23     have incest in Catholic families.
24  534                  The local CBC -- just prior to our
25     first education referendum dealing with a matter of


 1     constitutional rights in this province, the local CBC
 2     refused to air the television ad of our referendum
 3     committee, implying -- when the refusal became a news
 4     item itself, the implication was that it was
 5     deliberately misleading.  The Catholic and Pentecostal
 6     side of the debate is lying to the public in this ad. 
 7     That is why.  It is so terrible that we the CBC refuse
 8     to air this.
 9  535                  Another special report, an hour-long
10     feature called "The Power and the Glory", the thematic
11     background music used in that was the theme music from
12     one of the "Damian, The Omen" horror stories with a
13     very, very malevolent kind of a sound track, with the
14     implications -- associations in people's minds who had
15     seen this "Damian, The Omen" movie, is that this
16     somehow related to demonic possession.
17  536                  In that same episode, "The Power and
18     the Glory", one of the typical tactics and methods used
19     by the local CBC is the juxtaposition of what CBC
20     regards as a moderate Catholic that agrees with CBC's
21     perspective and world view, the juxtaposition of that
22     person with somebody who represents a more traditional
23     orthodox view within the Catholic Church.  Of course,
24     the person representing the orthodox point of view is
25     always shown to be either a very, very elderly person


 1     or a poor, less well-educated, less well-spoken person.
 2  537                  In one case, the person representing
 3     the traditional view and traditional teaching of the
 4     Church was a young man who admitted to a past record of
 5     drug abuse and alcohol abuse, and now, he sees visions. 
 6     This is a very imbalanced way of portraying it.
 7  538                  Just prior to the second
 8     constitutional referendum in 1997, one of the lawyers,
 9     who has a personal vested interest because he
10     represents victims of Mount Cashel, was interviewed on
11     CBC.  He urged everyone to vote in favour of the
12     government's point of view on this issue in order to
13     prevent priests from patrolling the classrooms and the
14     corridors of classrooms and schools seeking victims.
15  539                  Now, that was aired by CBC and that
16     was a Thursday evening.  On Monday morning, the Premier
17     of the province came out and said that that was an
18     unconscionable and uncalled for remark and it was
19     repudiated.  That remark by that lawyer was repudiated
20     by everyone.
21  540                  What was wrong with the CBC's
22     judgment that they did not spot that in the first place
23     and not have that man on air?  It turns out that both
24     that lawyer and also one of the principal commentators
25     on the CBC, who is a paid freelancer, a regular


 1     panellist, and so on and so forth, both of these
 2     gentlemen, in their past career, were let go from
 3     teaching positions in Catholic schools.
 4  541                  Now, you can disagree with the
 5     Catholic church on whatever you like, on doctrines and
 6     so forth, but these two individuals were in breach of
 7     contract.  They signed contracts to agree to certain
 8     things, to follow certain procedures and rules.  They
 9     didn't live up to it and they were let go.
10  542                  Now, they have harboured a grudge for
11     years.  CBC, in all the interviews of them, has never
12     said to them, excuse me, do you think perhaps your
13     objectivity might just be a little bit tainted?  There
14     was never any mention of that.
15  543                  The coverage Maureen Brosna(ph) had
16     of CBC radio, of "Gonzagua"(ph), complained about by a
17     local Catholic doctor, the Catholic doctor instead of
18     getting an acknowledgment, gets a saucy, rude,
19     insulting letter back from the CBC radio reporter
20     saying, how dare you impugn my objectivity?
21  544                  Recently, Greg Malone(ph), our famous
22     Greg Malone the comedian, was interviewed at the same
23     high school.  That is atrocious.  I will include a copy
24     of the letter of complaint in my written submission.  I
25     won't get into the detail now, but Ted Blades(ph), the


 1     CBC man, was the interviewer.  What was Greg Malone
 2     doing there, as back-up, as shotgun for the radio
 3     reporter?  They were interviewing a high school student
 4     who was not an equal match to intellectually defend
 5     herself.  She did an excellent job.
 6  545                  Advance promotions of upcoming
 7     special reports on allegedly Catholic issues.  The
 8     amount of promotion and advance publicity that these
 9     things get turns out, when you actually see the
10     program, not warranted at all by the news content of
11     it.  One of the regular TV panellists on "The Here And
12     Now" television program who, I believe, was supposed to
13     be a presenter here and may yet be this afternoon,
14     Ms Noreen Golfman from the University, she refers to
15     Newfoundland in one of her comments as a "priest-ridden
16     society" as though priests were some sort of vermin to
17     be extinguished.
18  546                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. O'Leary, as you
19     pointed out, I did give Mr. Brown more than 10 minutes
20     and I think I have allowed you about a similar amount
21     of time.  I wonder if you could summarize your
22     presentation in another minute.
23  547                  MR. O'LEARY:  I will try to do that. 
24     Yes, I will.
25  548                  One of the other regular commentators


 1     who is very popular in the province -- he is a clever
 2     and a witty man.  He used to be much better years ago
 3     than he is now but he seems to be a pet of CBC; they
 4     keep employing him.  Mr. Ray Guy(ph) has a notorious
 5     track record for the horrendous, insulting, insensitive
 6     things that he says.  He has a flea in his ear about
 7     the Catholic Church for some reason or other and he
 8     never misses an opportunity to bring it into his
 9     commentary, even when it is not at all relevant to the
10     subject that he is talking about.
11  549                  I will sum up here just by observing
12     a couple of tactics that I have touched on.
13  550                  CBC's tactic seems to be that they go
14     out and seek dissenters and critics of the Church to
15     interview.  They juxtapose, as I said before, what CBC
16     considers a moderate Catholic with people who are made
17     out to be fanatic kooks.
18  551                  Another tactic is this business of
19     concealing or never referring to or asking questions
20     about the background and the biases and the personal
21     experiences of CBC's own panellists, freelancers and
22     interviewees.  That program that I referred to, of
23     incest in Catholic family culture, it turned out that
24     the interviewee in question was herself a survivor of
25     incest in a Catholic family.  That didn't come up.  It


 1     wasn't mentioned.  The public didn't know about it but
 2     we would be entitled to think that perhaps it casts her
 3     objectivity under a little cloud.
 4  552                  The use of melodramatic techniques
 5     and creative licence.  I get the impression very often
 6     that many of the CBC writers and producers are
 7     playwright wannabes.  This business of ominous shadows
 8     on the stairwell, running up the stairs in the program
 9     entitled "Sisters of No Mercy" about the Belvedere
10     incident, a follow-up to the Mount Cashel, a nun
11     chasing a child up the stairs so that they can beat
12     them and whip them with a belt.  Well, you don't see
13     the nun and the child because it is creative fiction. 
14     What you see is this shadow going up over the stairs
15     and the cries.
16  553                  Sauce for the goose:  If we had the
17     resources and the personnel and the time and turned our
18     cameras on the CBC and looked at it internally, at the
19     personal lives, shortcomings, foibles of CBC personnel
20     and then alleged that that was representative of the
21     CBC as a whole and that these people were this way
22     because of what the CBC is, people would say, that is
23     unreasonable.  And yet, that is exactly the tactics the
24     CBC uses on our Church all the time.
25  554                  I wonder:  Is there a certain degree


 1     of professional courtesy amongst the media, the non-CBC
 2     media, that they don't do investigative journalism on
 3     the CBC?
 4  555                  Conclusion and recommendations -- I
 5     will wrap up quickly.  Eighteen months ago, a local
 6     chapter of the Canadian Journalists Society held a
 7     forum on:  Is the Media Too Powerful and Irresponsible?
 8  556                  It was a kangaroo court.  It was a
 9     media-sponsored event.  The media personnel acted for
10     the defense, for the prosecution and sat on the bench. 
11     The only strongly critical voice was that of former
12     Member of Parliament John Crosbie who cited Conrad
13     Bain's(ph) book.  Crosbie had the media folks -- one
14     man -- he had them all squirming in their seats.
15  557                  Our suggestion is:  CBC does good
16     things.  It has done good things in the past. 
17     Hopefully, it can continue in the future.
18  558                  But right now, the upset, the anger,
19     the hurt, the frustration at being stonewalled, of the
20     Catholic community is so severe that the recommendation
21     would be:  Take every penny spent on the CBC and if you
22     want to unite Canadians, put it into a high school
23     student exchange program so that young people across
24     this country can move to one another's provinces for a
25     period, get to know one another, one-to-one, in person


 1     and face-to-face, without that knowledge having to be
 2     filtered through a biased prism of central Canadian CBC
 3     intellectual elite who tell Canadians what to think of
 4     one another.
 5  559                  We have little confidence that these
 6     hearings will address our concerns.  Nevertheless, I
 7     want to thank you for pretending to listen to me this
 8     afternoon.  I will pretend to believe it might actually
 9     make some difference.  Please over the next few months,
10     prove to us our scepticism about this whole procedure
11     is not justified.
12  560                  Thank you.
13  561                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
14     Mr. O'Leary.
15  562                  Ms Moore.
16                                                        1627
17  563                  MS MOORE:  I would like to call
18     Mr. Ali Chiasson please.
20  564                  M. CHIASSON:  Monsieur le Président,
21     Messieurs et Madame les Commissaires, bonjour.
22  565                  Au nom de la Fédération des
23     Francophones de la Terre-Neuve et du Labrador,
24     j'aimerais vous remercier de m'avoir offert la
25     possibilité de vous présenter nos positions au sujet du


 1     renouvellement de la licence de la Société
 2     Radio-Canada.
 3  566                  Notre présentation sera divisée on
 4     trois sections qui traiteront respectivement de
 5     l'embauche d'un journaliste radio à temps plein, radio
 6     pour la province; du désir d'obtenir pour une plus
 7     grande diffusion de la programmation régionale
 8     télévisée en provenance de Moncton; et finalement, de
 9     nos préoccupations quant à la diffusion nationale de
10     RDI à partir de Montréal.
11  567                  Notre province a reçu, pour la
12     première fois, le signal de radio dans les années
13     cinquante puis le signal télé dans la fin des années
14     soixante-dix.  Au début des années quatre-vingt, après
15     multiples démarches et efforts concertés, la communauté
16     a enfin obtenu les services d'une journaliste télé à
17     temps plein pour Terre-Neuve et Labrador, puis en 1998,
18     nous avons finalement obtenu la transmission du
19     bulletin de nouvelles le "Ce Soir" via le signal télé
20     de Moncton.
21  568                  En guise de mise en contexte,
22     permettez-moi de situer l'importance de la Société
23     Radio-Canada pour les communautés francophones
24     acadiennes de notre province à titre de moyen d'assurer
25     la communication entre les différentes communautés de


 1     notre province.  Les communautés francophones
 2     acadiennes de notre province sont caractérisées par la
 3     division du Détroit de Belle Isle qui divise l'Île de
 4     Terre-Neuve et le Labrador, un territoire immense et
 5     une population géographiquement éparpillée.
 6  569                  Cette disparité géographique de nos
 7     communautés nous fait dépendre grandement des
 8     télécommunications.  Avec de si grandes distances qui
 9     nous séparent, les services de Radio-Canada nous sont
10     essentiels afin de garder le contact avec des
11     francophones de l'Atlantique et du Canada tout entier.
12  570                  La question d'une journaliste à temps
13     plein à la radio.  Il faut bien dire que généralement
14     il existe une satisfaction générale des services de la
15     radio.  Nous sommes très fiers de l'émission "Bonjour
16     Atlantique", édition Nouvelle-Écosse et Terre-Neuve. 
17     Nous sommes également très heureux avec la
18     radiodiffusion régionale issue de Moncton.
19  571                  Nous constatons, par contre,
20     plusieurs problèmes avec la quantité de nouvelles
21     diffusées.  Nous vivons des situations où, en période
22     d'élections provinciales, par exemple, des équipes de
23     Moncton ou de Halifax doivent se déplacer dans la
24     province pour des courtes périodes très, très, très
25     définies.  Le reste du temps, règle générale, on entend


 1     rarement des nouvelles sur notre province sauf, il faut
 2     bien préciser, lorsque la journaliste de la télévision
 3     produit des reportages pour la radio.
 4  572                  Cette situation est injuste à l'égard
 5     de la journaliste télé qui se trouve alors responsable
 6     de deux productions.  C'est autant plus préoccupant
 7     lorsqu'on constate que des régions périphériques de
 8     Montréal comme Chicoutimi, Rimouski, ou même Sept-Îles
 9     ont droit à leur propre poste de radio régional de
10     Radio-Canada.  Une province comme Terre-Neuve et le
11     Labrador devrait, en théorie, avoir recours aux mêmes
12     services.  Nous revendiquons donc un ou une journaliste
13     à temps plein pour la province, en plus de notre
14     journaliste de télévision.
15  573                  Toute la question -- on fait allusion
16     ici à la question de la production régionale de Moncton
17     à la télévision.  Depuis que nous recevons la
18     transmission du bulletin de nouvelles de "Ce Soir", nos
19     communautés sont heureuses de voir, à juste titre, les
20     reportages de notre journaliste.
21  574                  Les gens, de plus en plus, veulent
22     connaître la réalité des communautés francophones et
23     acadiennes de l'Atlantique, mais malheureusement, le
24     temps de transition du signal de Moncton est limité au
25     "Ce Soir" de 19 h 30 à 20 h 30.  Nous revendiquons donc


 1     une plus grande diffusion de la production télévision
 2     de Moncton.
 3  575                  Le Réseau de l'information.  Depuis
 4     l'arrivée du Réseau de l'information, RDI, nous avons
 5     constaté que les nouvelles du Québec, voire même la
 6     région urbaine de Montréal, ont une priorité sur toutes
 7     autres nouvelles.  Également, nous avons constaté que
 8     les émissions locales qui nous concernent, par exemple,
 9     "L'Atlantique en Direct", peuvent être subitement
10     interrompues par l'annonce des conditions de
11     circulation sur la Métropolitaine.
12  576                  C'est plutôt dommage de constater,
13     après avoir été obligé de suivre Newsworld par la force
14     des choses, que nos amis les anglophones n'ont pas ce
15     même traitement de la part de Toronto.  Nous
16     revendiquons donc une plus grande autonomie de
17     diffusion de la part des stations régionales associées
18     au Réseau de l'information.
19  577                  En guise de conclusion, j'ai
20     l'impression qu'on a eu l'occasion d'entendre plusieurs
21     autres intervenants.  Je crois que je vais me distancer
22     des revendications plus précises que j'ai présentées
23     dans la présentation et d'étendre un petit peu la
24     vision pour quand même vous signaler que les
25     communautés francophones et acadiennes de cette


 1     province ont quand même les mêmes préoccupations que
 2     nos amis anglophones.
 3  578                  Nous trouvons que la Société
 4     Radio-Canada, radio et télévision, ont une
 5     responsabilité tout à fait gigantesque et un poids
 6     assez lourd à porter sur les épaules.  C'est le
 7     tissu-même des liens qui unissent, ad mare usque ad
 8     mare -- ad mare, qui sont probablement les plus
 9     significatives à l'égard de Radio-Canada et ainsi dire
10     le rôle que cette Société-là joue dans la vie
11     quotidienne des francophones.
12  579                  Comme vous pouvez constater, la
13     francophonie terre-neuvienne et labradorienne est très
14     lointaine, très isolée, et certainement pas dans le
15     mainstream, si on peut se permettre de s'exprimer
16     ainsi, de la francophonie canadienne et, par le
17     fait-même, j'ai l'impression que c'est incalculable le
18     rôle que cette Société-là joue pour faire rupture avec
19     les distances géographiques que tout le monde doit
20     nécessairement faire face.
21  580                  Donc, finalement, je ne voudrais pas
22     nécessairement vous bombarder de chiffres et de
23     statistiques et de vous dresser des tableaux limitatifs
24     de notre communauté.
25  581                  Donc, pour essayer de clore et de


 1     vous permettre de faire d'autres délibérations, je vous
 2     remercie à nouveau de nous avoir accordé cette période
 3     de temps et je vous encourage fortement, mes amis les
 4     Commissaires, de poursuivre vos démarches dans le but
 5     d'assurer à la fin de la journée que Radio-Canada
 6     répond aux mieux des intérêts de chacune et chacun de
 7     ces Canadiens et Canadiennes qui sont en position de
 8     recevoir, par la force des choses, le seul service qui
 9     existe pour nous unir.
10  582                  En ce qui s'agit des questions des
11     minorités linguistiques au pays, la communauté
12     francophone et acadienne de notre province est
13     certainement fidèle à cette vision-là du pays, que
14     Radio-Canada est l'organe, et probablement le seul
15     organe, qui est capable de présenter une vision du
16     pays, de cette belle nation que nous appelons le Canada
17     et de solidifier justement les liens qui nous unissent
18     plutôt que de maximiser le potentiel des argumentations
19     qui pourraient nous diviser.
20  583                  Merci.
21  584                  LE PRÉSIDENT:  Merci beaucoup,
22     Monsieur Chiasson.
23                                                        1627
24  585                  MS MOORE:  I would like to call
25     Mr. Richard Barnes please.


 2  586                  MR. BARNES:  Thank you for granting
 3     me this time to talk to you about the CBC and welcome
 4     to our province.
 5  587                  I have worked for CBC Newfoundland
 6     and Labrador for 25 years in radio and television
 7     production and this presentation reflects the views of
 8     the provincial locals of two CBC unions, the
 9     Communications, Energy and Paperworkers Union and the
10     Canadian Media Guild.
11  588                  Newfoundland and Labrador is home to
12     Inuit, Innu, Niskapi and MicMac as well as a blend of
13     several European nations that began visiting these
14     shores 500 years ago.  The area around this harbour
15     here behind me is one of the oldest European
16     settlements in North America.  English, French, and
17     Dutch soldiers fought for possession of this part of
18     the new world right here on this hill and it was just
19     50 years ago this month that we joined Canada. 
20     Newfoundland already had a public radio broadcaster on
21     the air for 17 years when we voted to become Canadians.
22  589                  With Confederation in 1949, the VONF
23     radio service became part of the CBC radio network.  In
24     the early sixties, people fought the Smallwood
25     Government and petitioned to bring CBC television to


 1     our province.
 2  590                  Culturally, Newfoundland and Labrador
 3     is regarded as unique.  Our brand of music, comedy and
 4     satire are extensions of ourselves and our life
 5     stories.  They are real.
 6  591                  The CBC has had a dominant role in
 7     recording and presenting these stories and
 8     performances.  Increasingly though, cutbacks at the CBC
 9     have eroded the commitment to that type of programming
10     in this region.
11  592                  Since 1991, the budget in this region
12     has been cut by almost 52 per cent and 170 positions
13     have been eliminated.  That is 60 per cent of the
14     employees here in this region.  Even before these cuts,
15     CBC Newfoundland was known for its efficiency.  I
16     believe we produced more quality programming per dollar
17     than any other region.  We invented doing more with
18     less here and that has been the mantra of the CBC for
19     the last few years and I believe we are already there.
20  593                  In radio, these cutbacks have meant
21     fewer recordings of concerts and special events in the
22     community.  In television, dramatic presentations and
23     variety programming have been virtually eliminated.  If
24     this type of environment had existed in the seventies
25     and eighties, the evolution of a young theatre troupe


 1     to "CODCO", to "This Hour Has 22 Minutes" would never
 2     have happened.
 3  594                  In radio and television, CBC has been
 4     a nurturing ground for local talent in the performing
 5     arts.  Private radio and television with all their
 6     attributes appear to neither have the commitment nor
 7     the resources to take the chance on unproven talent. 
 8     That has been the role of the CBC and it appears to be
 9     no longer in the game.
10  595                  The CBC radio is a leader in this
11     community.  Dr. Dunsmore from Memorial University
12     mentioned earlier the work of Francesca Swann and the
13     Arts Department of CBC radio who are struggling along
14     on a shoestring budget and CBC radio is still the only
15     place on the dial where people can tune into serious
16     regional news and current affairs.  It covers stories
17     and issues in a way that goes beyond headlines.  It
18     brings voices to the discussion that would not
19     otherwise reach the airwaves.
20  596                  But these cutbacks have diminished
21     its ability to do its job.  Are we saying the answer is
22     more money, a commitment that the CBC is short of?  Our
23     answer is no.  We understand these hearings are not
24     about funding the CBC but these hearings are about
25     getting a commitment from the CBC.  It is about getting


 1     a commitment in specific terms to regional broadcasting
 2     in radio and television and, in this province, that
 3     means the commitment to the music and stories and
 4     issues of Newfoundland and Labrador.
 5  597                  We ask the Commission to keep in mind
 6     as it reviews the CBC's licences that around here
 7     regional broadcasting is not just a concept.  It has
 8     been working and it is still working because private
 9     alternatives to it simply do not yet exist.
10  598                  There must be more time slots in
11     radio and television for programs produced in the
12     regions.  These are programs that can be broadcast in
13     this and other regions to give real meaning to the term
14     "national".  The term "national" has for too long been
15     used as an excuse to remove programming from regions
16     such as Newfoundland and Labrador.
17  599                  We have a vision of the country that
18     dares see itself from the regions toward the centre
19     rather than a country that fancies national expression
20     as emanating from the centre.
21  600                  The CBC has been allowed to get away
22     with speaking in platitudes about its commitment to the
23     regions.  Yet, in television, there is the perennial
24     question of its commitment to local supper hour shows. 
25     In this province, despite budget reductions, our supper


 1     hour show is alone in providing full provincial
 2     coverage and it is the most widely watched newscast in
 3     the province.
 4  601                  Our only other regular television
 5     production is a diminished version of the highly
 6     successful resources program, "Land and Sea", which in
 7     an earlier study of the CBC was held up by Pierre
 8     Juneau as a model of the kind of television the CBC
 9     should be producing.
10  602                  In the absence of a real commitment
11     to regional broadcasting, we are fearful that
12     Newfoundland and Labrador will become part of a sound
13     stage in national productions.  The Newfoundland on
14     radio and television will be a product of the Toronto
15     production house.  This is a recipe for
16     misinterpretation of the places and stories of this
17     part of our country.
18  603                  For the new millennium, we ask you to
19     demand the CBC to produce real evidence of its
20     commitment to regional broadcasting in radio and
21     television as a condition of having its licence
22     renewed.
23  604                  Thank you.
24  605                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
25     Mr. Barnes.


 1                                                        1633
 2  606                  MS MOORE:  I would like to call
 3     Ms Paula Flynn please.
 4  607                  Is Ms Flynn here today?
 5  608                  Is Mr. Philip Hicks here?
 6  609                  Mr. Chris Zimmer?
 8  610                  MR. ZIMMER:  Mr. Chairman, ladies and
 9     gentlemen.  One of the good parts, I guess, about being
10     near the last is an awful lot of this stuff that I had
11     thought about and written down has already been said. 
12     So I will try to avoid restating the obvious.
13  611                  I have had the good fortune to be a
14     guest in this province as a film producer and helping
15     to produce one film so far of Newfoundland literature,
16     "The Divine Ryans(ph)".  So I just thought I would take
17     the $1,000 cup of coffee and reverse it and come to
18     St. John's from Halifax as opposed to going to Sydney
19     or Charlottetown to make these comments.
20  612                  Canada's cultural and knowledge-based
21     industries are dependent on having access to the
22     Canadian people through the media of radio and
23     television.  The communication of ideas, thoughts,
24     poetry, music, science, political opinion and current
25     affairs are essential to the very survival of our


 1     country culturally, politically and economically.  This
 2     activity cannot be a strictly managed process but must
 3     be an equal and constant current flowing between all
 4     parts of the country in order for the process to be
 5     effective and vital.
 6  613                  CBC, fifty years ago, was then and
 7     remains now an important player in the communication of
 8     our dreams and of course sometimes our disappointments. 
 9     I hope, fifty years from now, that a writer or a
10     producer is sitting in front of you, standing in front
11     of your successors, pleading for the continued wisdom
12     of the government in maintaining the activities of the
13     CBC.  Some things do tend to stay the same.
14  614                  Of course, in order for that to
15     happen, we will no doubt have to lobby for and plead
16     for the continuance of the CRTC as well as an important
17     regulator of our broadcast and telecommunications
18     world.
19  615                  I want to address the need for and
20     attention to the change in the CBC.  While a supporter
21     of the institution, I do feel that there are grave
22     areas of concern that need to be addressed.  As someone
23     who has worked in the cultural sector in eastern Canada
24     for the last 28 years, I have seen growing trends in
25     the CBC which are, I believe, countered to the best


 1     interests of the Canadian citizens in general wherever
 2     they might live.  These trends, I believe, are rarely
 3     malevolent but are indeed often misguided.
 4  616                  Trendy economic theories, political
 5     posturing and personal ambition all too often create an
 6     environment which is detrimental to the free flow of
 7     ideas which should be at the very core of the CBC. 
 8     Without getting into particulars which would take far
 9     longer than the 10 minutes allocated here, I would like
10     to suggest some areas of concern which reflect my
11     observations.
12  617                  I would like you to note that these
13     opinions are indeed mine alone and don't necessarily
14     reflect any of the industry boards or associations of
15     which I am a member.  There will be, I am sure, from a
16     number of groups, different opinions that you are going
17     to get right across the country.
18  618                  The first of these:  I think the CBC
19     should take a more national stance and cease to use the
20     straw dog of regionalism as a means to centralize
21     content, economic benefit or information.  The drive to
22     centralize power and control, merge decision-making
23     with a few select suppliers narrows the choice that
24     both the viewers require and the program creators can
25     provide.


 1  619                  By filtering all the programming
 2     ideas through a narrow funnel of decision- and
 3     opinion-makers can only result in a subsequent narrow
 4     definition of ideas, making many copies of a small
 5     number of books -- many copies of a small number of
 6     books does not really make for a very good library.  A
 7     diversity of ideas is absolutely essential and the CBC
 8     should be the means by which everybody across Canada
 9     can disseminate those ideas.
10  620                  The CBC should increase its dealings
11     with independent producers and at the same time it
12     should be more equitable in its negotiations with
13     independent producers across the country.  The
14     independent producers are capable of developing and
15     producing quality work of a diverse nature and at a
16     very economic price.  Trust them and respect that they
17     have developed the ideas and financed the major balance
18     of the programs.  I think that kind of a dealing with a
19     wider independent partnership is extremely important.
20  621                  Distribution rights, Internet rights
21     and other insular rights should be fairly and
22     separately negotiated as an addition to a broadcast
23     licence, not as a take-it-or-leave-it situation, as is
24     now the situation.  The principal business of CBC
25     should be the operation of a public-funded television


 1     and radio broadcast system, not acting as a studio or a
 2     media conglomerate.  This probably is one of the
 3     economic theories that is currently, I know, in some of
 4     the proposals.
 5  622                  Feature film is an area where the CBC
 6     could provide welcome support.  By allocating both
 7     programming time and promotion of films to people who
 8     make them, CBC could prove beneficial.  I do not,
 9     however, believe that CBC should engage its human
10     resources in the act of development, production or
11     distribution of film.  Committing as little as 90
12     minutes of prime time for Canadian feature films with
13     significant broadcast licences would go a long way to
14     helping.
15  623                  Feature film is one of the few forms
16     of independent cinematic expression remaining and
17     giving this a particular political, social or
18     journalistic structure would destroy this expression.
19  624                  In conclusion, in an environment of
20     increasing channels and subsequent decline in the
21     number of viewers, the instinct is to grab at straws
22     and do what we see others doing.  This is not
23     necessarily a good thing.
24  625                  Perhaps what is best is to trust in
25     the diversity of Canadian writers, producers and


 1     filmmakers in creating vital, interesting programs and
 2     present these to the rest of the country as examples of
 3     their work.  "CBC Presents":  the programs of the
 4     Canadian producers, artists, writers and musicians are
 5     what are being presented.  The content is the
 6     individual and that will help to alleviate some of the
 7     concerns that CBC has a particular bias this way or
 8     that way.
 9  626                  A lot of decisions to be made across
10     the country again recognize that there is a diversity
11     of opinion and style and cherish the fact that that is
12     a good thing, not a bad thing.
13  627                  As we move into the next century, CBC
14     radio and television should strive to maintain itself
15     not as the creator or arbitrator of what is acceptable
16     culturally, morally or aesthetically, but be a mirror
17     that bounces ideas and creative expression of all sort
18     from one part of Canada to the rest.
19  628                  Thank you for listening to me and I
20     trust you will not only do these consultations but act
21     upon what you hear in order to shape the face of the
22     CBC so that it remains active and vital for all the
23     people in Canada.  Thank you.
24  629                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
25     Mr. Zimmer.


 1  630                  Just a quick question:  If you were
 2     to do more of what you suggest, and your focus, I
 3     think, was particularly on television --
 4  631                  MR. ZIMMER:  That's right.
 5  632                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  -- what would you
 6     do less of?
 7  633                  MR. ZIMMER:  What would I do less of? 
 8     I think I would do fewer mega-series.  I would do more
 9     drama, more innovative television programming and have
10     the CBC present it as the best of what is done in a
11     particular part of the country.
12  634                  One lady earlier in the day -- and
13     I'm sorry but I don't remember what her name is --
14     mentioned the fact that we don't often get to see truly
15     what is happening in the west coast, in the Prairies,
16     in Quebec, in Halifax.  I assume that it is probably
17     true here as well and I think that is a shame.
18  635                  I have a lot of contacts with people
19     across the country in the business and the opportunity
20     for us actually to see the kind of thinking and the
21     shows, the writing that goes on.  It just isn't there
22     and so I think that has to be looked at and probably
23     make it a little less deal-driven.
24  636                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  When you make the
25     suggestion allowing decisions to be made more across


 1     the country, and I presume you mean in the regions and
 2     perhaps even in individual provinces, given a fixed
 3     budget -- let's assume it is at the level it is at now
 4     -- how would you see that decentralization of
 5     decision-making being affected?
 6  637                  MR. ZIMMER:  I believe that the
 7     decisions that were being made on a local level, on a
 8     regional level, on a provincial level, were decisions
 9     that are actually the ones that are most important.
10  638                  We were talking just a few seconds
11     ago about how "This Hour Has 22 Minutes" came to reach
12     its prominence in Canada, and indeed, if it hadn't been
13     for the support of people here in St. John's, the CBC
14     in Halifax fighting for those early shows and
15     supporting those writers and performers, it wouldn't
16     happen.  That is the kind of decision-making that is no
17     longer available to us.
18  639                  If we have one show, we have to go
19     through the system, through Toronto, and they will pick
20     and choose which show, which idea goes.  I think that
21     is a backward step and it is something that can be
22     reversed.  It is just an economic theory of merging and
23     getting bigger that drove that decision.  You can just
24     as easily make a different decision.  I do believe that
25     there is enough economic resources available.


 1  640                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  One cell phone
 2     rings and everybody goes for it.
 3  641                  MR. ZIMMER:  Everybody jumps, right? 
 4     I was pretty sure I turned it off.
 5  642                  I am not at the treasury at CBC so I
 6     can only give my opinion.  But I do believe that there
 7     are resources that are not being tapped, that are being
 8     wasted there.  Actually, you can take and use a lot of
 9     those in a different way but it takes a certain will to
10     do that.  I think it is very important because I think
11     you will hear, right across the country, echoes of what
12     you have heard today.
13  643                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes, we have indeed
14     already.  Thank you very much, Mr. Zimmer.
15                                                        1645
16  644                  MS MOORE:  I would like to call
17     Mr. John Birkelund please.
19  645                  MR. BIRKELUND:  I have been listening
20     to the CBC radio now for years but there is a bit of
21     noise out in our area -- 640 from St. John's -- in
22     night time -- but that is beside the point.
23  646                  Now, the signal from other stations
24     coming in -- I don't know from where -- I have been out
25     on the Grand Banks, Flemish Cap, whatever, Labrador


 1     right up to Baffin Island but the CBC, after Saglek, it
 2     disappears.  There is no strong signal coming in for
 3     the original programs like "CBC Morning Show" or
 4     whatever that disappear after Saglek.
 5  647                  If there was any chance, they should
 6     have a repeat of the station there 15,000 kilowatts or
 7     1,500 kilowatts, 10,000 watts or whatever, to have a
 8     signal out there for the original -- I mean from a
 9     Newfoundland and Labrador perspective of the fishermen
10     up there in the summertime fishing, plus these fellows
11     are fishing shrimp up there.  And say from St. John's
12     and out to 150 miles from here, maybe 200 sometimes,
13     that signal disappears altogether.  You hear it go and
14     come back, and some other stations, maybe from down the
15     southern side of the border or from Europe somewhere,
16     but it disappears.
17  648                  You have a little country up there
18     now like Greenland.  They have a signal coming in so
19     strong it's not even funny.  You hear that right down
20     to St. Anthony from Greenland.  I will listen to it
21     once in a while.
22  649                  Now, say the shortwave:  I have been
23     around the world for years and we listen strongly to
24     CBC to get a bit of news from different parts, what is
25     going on.  There is one thing I will say for the CBC


 1     reporters, if they could put in on the shortwave or on
 2     the AM here locally, the newspapers -- not the big
 3     ones, the small ones, original, you know, the small
 4     newspapers that come out, say, "The Compass" or "The
 5     Log" -- not the headlines because they always come on
 6     the headline on the TV or radio but the small things
 7     that happen in the communities -- Labrador.  That is my
 8     opinion.  Thank you very much.
 9  650                  And by the way, I have been taping
10     these programs over the years.  I have a little
11     shortwave radio.  I pick up CBC "World at Six" and
12     taped it and I brought it to the mess room for our boys
13     to listen to a bit of news in the night-time because I
14     had to go out on a ship and tape this.  So I don't know
15     what to say more.
16  651                  Thank you very much.
17  652                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
18     Mr. Birkelund.
19  653                  Now, I understand those are all the
20     people we had registered on the list for today.
21  654                  MS MOORE:  That's right.
22  655                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Is there anybody
23     else here today who would like to make a presentation?
24                                                        1650
25  656                  Susan Knight, is it?  Do you want to


 1     come and sit at a chair that has a microphone?
 3  657                  MS KNIGHT:  Thank you.
 4  658                  Mr. Chairman and ladies and
 5     gentlemen, I am the founder and conductor of the
 6     Newfoundland Symphony Youth Choir and also one of the
 7     artistic directors of Festival 500, an international
 8     choral festival here in St. John's.  But really I am
 9     here this afternoon as a citizen of this province of
10     this province and of this country, a naturalized
11     citizen, I must say.  I was four years old when we
12     became Canadians.  So I have been reared very
13     consciously both as a Newfoundlander and as a Canadian.
14  659                  I apologize if I make any repetitions
15     here this afternoon because I have just recently
16     arrived and haven't heard the rest of the speakers this
17     afternoon.  So I will speak from the mind and the heart
18     and hope I don't have too much repetition from what
19     other presenters have made this afternoon.
20  660                  I have listened to the CBC all my
21     life.  I have principally listened to it, and watched
22     it as well, and I am coming this afternoon to say that
23     I think not only should its licence be renewed but I
24     want to speak to the power of the CBC as an agent for
25     cultural identity.  I just want to speak a little bit


 1     about culture and how culture is conceived and happens
 2     in any place in the world.
 3  661                  When you think of it, I am in receipt
 4     of all the generations that preceded me long before the
 5     CBC was invented but part of the whole process of
 6     cultural renewal in any generation is that you receive
 7     from the generations preceding you, both living and
 8     then in written record, the traditions, the ideas and
 9     the practices that make up your culture.  Then in every
10     generation, we reshape those ideas for ourselves to
11     transmit to the next generation who, in their turn,
12     will reshape them.
13  662                  So I am probably one of the
14     generation of Canadian children who were born as
15     Newfoundlanders and who have come up with that dual
16     identity, and it is a dual identity.  It is not an
17     identity that is at odds with itself at all and I think
18     one of the real reasons for that is because I grew up
19     listening to the CBC and thinking about what I listened
20     to.
21  663                  It is an agent and I should perhaps
22     at this point just make a little differential between
23     CBC radio and CBC television.  I think CBC television
24     tends to have a very powerful purpose because the
25     visual image is such a powerful image around the world


 1     to explain ourselves to each other and to the rest of
 2     the world.  But as I see Canadian television at the
 3     moment, there is not as great a difference between
 4     Canadian television and other national TV agents such
 5     as CTV and Global.
 6  664                  There is a lot of commercial support
 7     there which I am sure is necessary for its survival or
 8     at least is deemed to be.  But it is really CBC radio
 9     that I think that serves as an agent that really helps
10     cohesiveness across this country and, in that
11     cohesiveness, allows diversity to bloom.
12  665                  I often think of our powerful
13     neighbours to the south of us.  I think of them as they
14     explain themselves as a stew.  But Canada is a salad
15     and in my way of thinking, I think of almost the CBC as
16     a major agent, almost like a salad dressing would be in
17     a salad that brings all the individual elements
18     together and allows them to coexist and celebrate.  So
19     I think it is absolutely critical that the CBC be
20     encouraged, particularly in its radio programming, to
21     continue.
22  666                  I heard this gentleman who was a film
23     producer speak about the power and the importance of
24     the regions.  That is terribly, terribly important,
25     again because of the nature of Canadian cultural


 1     identity.  We are a string of strong regions that
 2     coexist and the special nature of Canadian prominence
 3     in the world and success in Canadian life is because we
 4     have been able to really flourish in our regions and
 5     yet agree to be Canadians together.
 6  667                  I think that the CBC, in all its
 7     programming, its political programming, its cultural
 8     programming, arouses a curiosity in each of us about
 9     our neighbours, about what it is like to be a
10     Manitoban, what it is like to be a Quebecer, and it
11     encourages us to see a connection.  I think curiosity
12     and connection are things that have to be nourished and
13     nurtured and I don't think that a commercial
14     broadcasting company would be able or would ever have
15     the same impetus to try and do that.
16  668                  I think that the strength of the
17     regions -- I am an artist.  I have been making art all
18     day with some wonderful young people here in
19     Newfoundland.  We have been taping a CD and that is why
20     I am late here this afternoon.  But we have to be
21     affirmed in our regions as we make art.  It takes not
22     only passion and reason to make art but courage and we
23     need to be encouraged.
24  669                  Certainly in this region, all the
25     makers of art who are expressing culture and expressing


 1     politics are greatly encouraged by CBC programming, by
 2     the existence of programming, by the very real life of
 3     CBC producers in the community, ear to the ground, out
 4     there in the community, wanting to hear what is going
 5     on, what is being made, what is being remade, and then
 6     playing it back to ourselves because certainly in an
 7     area with regional disparity like Newfoundland, the
 8     affirmation of ourselves to ourselves is critical for
 9     that kind of confidence to go on.
10  670                  One of the reasons perhaps that the
11     arts flourish here in Newfoundland is that we are
12     always under siege of some kind or other.  I remember
13     my parents talking about the war years.  Even though it
14     was a terrible time, they always talked about it with
15     such verve and joy in their recollections of the spirit
16     of the time.  In a way, Newfoundland has always been
17     like that.
18  671                  So the arts do flourish here but
19     there is so much that one could be oppressed about that
20     it is terribly important to explain ourselves to each
21     other and to affirm ourselves within the region.  So it
22     is not just important that Newfoundlanders or Atlantic
23     Canadians be, via the CBC, transmitted to Saskatchewan
24     so they will understand us and we they, but that you
25     have this affirmation of yourself within the region.


 1  672                  So I don't think that a commercial
 2     broadcaster could do the same thing and I don't think
 3     that ratings should be the thing that decides whether
 4     CBC continues its life or not, certainly in radio
 5     broadcasting.  I think that we have a responsibility to
 6     each other to have this wonderful idea that is Canada
 7     carry itself on in its diverse and unified ways.  That
 8     is why that is so critical.
 9  673                  When I think of television -- and I
10     don't know what all the numbers are.  I don't know what
11     commercial support brings in, in terms of budget or
12     percentage of budget.  I am anxious to even say this
13     but if push came to shove and it had to be one or the
14     other, I think we should keep radio.  But I am not
15     advocating or suggesting that for a minute.
16  674                  Maybe my suggestion would be very
17     naive if we look to something like having perhaps some
18     of the budget for CBC television come from public
19     subscriptions such as PBS in the United States, who
20     Canadians of course support as well.  I don't know what
21     is the validity of that suggestion or that idea or that
22     concept, whether that would ever fly.
23  675                  I just wanted to say these few words
24     today about how critical it is that CBC be allowed to
25     carry on, be strong in its regions, and carry on its


 1     national outlook as well, particularly in radio
 2     broadcasting.
 3  676                  I will say that locally here, this
 4     producer in this room behind me that has done
 5     absolutely stellar work in the region -- and that is
 6     Francesca Swann -- who gives the full circle of
 7     everything that goes on here in the musical life of
 8     this place, gives access to people.  In my youth,
 9     television was like that and there was so much
10     wonderful television, live programming and taped
11     programming coming out of this region and that has
12     dwindled because of funding.
13  677                  But it is certainly still going on in
14     radio and it would be a blow to Canada if we ever lost
15     anything of that nature.  But it is not just the arts,
16     it is all the programming that goes on through CBC
17     radio.
18  678                  So I thank you for the opportunity to
19     make this address here today.
20  679                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
21     Ms Knight.
22  680                  So have we heard from everybody who
23     wanted to make a presentation then?
24                                                        1701
25  681                  Well then, as we have done in all of


 1     the locations where we have provided an opportunity for
 2     comment, we have also provided an opportunity for the
 3     CBC to respond to the comments that they have heard
 4     through the day.
 5  682                  So I will turn it over and perhaps
 6     just for the record, if you would identify yourselves.
 8  683                  MS HUMBER:  Thank you, Commissioner
 9     Colville.  I am Dianne Humber.  I am here representing
10     CBC radio.  I am the Regional Director in Newfoundland
11     and Labrador.
12  684                  On behalf of the other CBC
13     representatives here, Donna Wicks and Lloyd Noël(ph)
14     representing regional television, Antea Springman(ph)
15     from the Communications Department and Michael Harris
16     from National Television, I would like to thank the
17     CRTC for allowing us to be part of their public
18     consultations.
19  685                  I would also like to thank all of our
20     listeners and viewers who have given of their time to
21     show up today and put so much effort into their
22     presentations and to prepare such passionate and
23     articulate presentations.  It is always a pleasure to
24     hear from our audience.
25  686                  The issues and opinions that we heard


 1     here today are very important to the CBC.  We see it as
 2     our role here to listen and to take your thoughts back
 3     and to seriously consider them.  We value any input
 4     from our audiences and appreciate the opportunity to
 5     hear it directly.  It is also lovely to put a face to
 6     some of the names that we have heard as CBC supporters
 7     and CBC detractors.
 8  687                  We will be following up with each of
 9     the presenters individually in the coming weeks and
10     trying to address your specific issues and to answer
11     any questions that you may have about CBC radio/CBC
12     television.  The fact that so many of you have taken
13     the time today to come here shows us that you are far
14     from apathetic about the CBC.
15  688                  It was delightful to hear so many
16     people speak specifically to the role of regional
17     broadcasting and of course, as a regional broadcaster,
18     it is something that is also very near to my heart. 
19     Taking an active interest in the CBC, whether you have
20     good things or bad things to say, it is really
21     important for us to hear those things and to take some
22     of those things into account when we are trying to plan
23     for the future.
24  689                  Again, thank you for turning out and
25     you will hear from us in the weeks to come.  We will


 1     give serious consideration to the things that you have
 2     had to say and try to take most of it into account when
 3     we plan for the future.
 4  690                  Thank you very much.
 5  691                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
 6     Ms Humber.
 7  692                  Given the hour and that we are going
 8     to reconvene at 6:00 and some of us may want to try to
 9     get a bite to eat before we start again, I think we
10     will adjourn our session.  We will reconvene here at
11     6:00 and go to, I would guess, some time between 9:00
12     and 10:00.
13     --- Recess at 1704 / Suspension à 1704
14     --- Upon resuming at 1805 / Reprise à 1805
15  693                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good evening,
16     ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to this public
17     consultation on the CBC.
18  694                  My name is David Colville and I am
19     the CRTC's Vice-Chair of Telecommunications and the
20     Atlantic Region Commissioner of the CRTC.  We are here
21     today and this evening to gather your views and
22     comments on CBC radio and television.  In your opinion,
23     how should the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation
24     fulfill its role in the coming years?
25  695                  The CBC is a national public service


 1     broadcasting in English as well as in French.  It plays
 2     an important role in the Canadian broadcasting system. 
 3     Today, many elements are constantly being added to the
 4     broadcasting system as technologies multiply, converge,
 5     open up new horizons and increasingly offer new
 6     services.  In this context, we want to know what are
 7     your needs and expectations as viewers and listeners of
 8     the CBC.
 9  696                  The Canadian Radio-television and
10     Telecommunications Commission regulates private and
11     public radio and television stations in this country
12     and we also regulate the cable undertakings and the
13     telephone companies and telecommunications companies. 
14     We wanted to come out across the country to communities
15     from one end of the country to the other to hear views
16     of citizens about the CBC and what your views are.
17  697                  The consultations are designed to
18     give you a chance, on the eve of the new millennium, to
19     express your opinion on the CBC's role, the programming
20     it offers and the direction it should take at the
21     national, regional and local levels.  Through these
22     consultations, we hope to enter into an open dialogue
23     with you and to hear your concerns.
24  698                  Your comments will form part of the
25     public record which will be added to the record of the


 1     public hearing on the CBC that will begin in Hull on
 2     May 25th.  At that hearing, the Commission will examine
 3     the CBC's application for the renewal of its licences,
 4     including radio, television and its specialty services,
 5     Newsworld and Réseau de l'information.  You can also
 6     take part in that public hearing by sending your
 7     written comments to the CRTC.
 8  699                  Coming to today's consultations,
 9     allow me to introduce the CRTC staff that are with us
10     today:  Karen Moore, our legal counsel; Nick Ketchum
11     from our Broadcasting Planning Branch in Ottawa; and
12     Brien Rodger, the Regional Director of our Halifax
13     Regional Office.  Please feel free to call on them with
14     any questions you might have about the process we have
15     today.
16  700                  So that you will all have the
17     opportunity to speak, we will ask that you limit your
18     presentation to 10 minutes.  As these consultations are
19     a forum designed especially for you, we want to listen
20     to as many participants as possible.  My notes say that
21     we will not ask any questions unless we need
22     clarification but I may ask a question or two.  But if
23     anybody is uncomfortable with that, just indicate to me
24     and we will respect your wishes.
25  701                  I should indicate that at the end of


 1     the session, representatives from the CBC who are here
 2     listening to the comments will have a chance to respond
 3     to the comments that they have heard through this
 4     evening's session.
 5  702                  So before we start, I will turn it
 6     over to legal counsel to go over some housekeeping
 7     matters and we will open it up for your comments.
 8  703                  MS MOORE:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
 9  704                  First, I just want to mention that
10     there are translation headsets available just outside
11     the hearing room.  I will be calling each person by
12     name.  If you could come forward to the table.  When
13     you begin speaking, please ensure that your microphone
14     is on by pressing the button so that your presentation
15     can be transcribed.  Please also be sure to turn off
16     your microphone when you are finished.
17  705                  The transcript of this consultation
18     will form part of the public record relating to the
19     applications for licence renewal and they will be
20     available on the Commission's Web site approximately
21     seven days from today.
22  706                  Finally, I just want to mention that
23     we also have comment forms available which you can fill
24     out today and leave with us and they will also be
25     placed on the public file of this proceeding.  Thank


 1     you.
 2                                                        1820
 3  707                  Our first presenter this evening is
 4     Mr. Frank Holden.
 5  708                  We will just keep calling out names
 6     until we have someone.  Mr. Chris Brookes.
 7     --- Off microphone / Sans microphone
 8  709                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.  Anybody else
 9     who is in the room, judging by looking around, anybody
10     else who is here who is going to make a presentation,
11     if you would like to sit at the table, you are
12     certainly welcome to do so.
14  710                  MR. BROOKES:  Hi.  I just wanted to
15     say that I think it is unfortunate that this
16     consultation is happening while CBC is undergoing a
17     labour dispute, and I presume and I hope that nothing
18     -- it would be nice to be able to say everything
19     everybody has to say without that.  I mean certainly
20     what I have to say has no relation to the shadow of
21     that labour dispute whatsoever.
22  711                  I want to speak not so much as a
23     listener, but if I did speak as a listener, I would
24     stress the importance of regional programming on radio
25     in particular and television as well to this region. 


 1     In my opinion, Canada is the sum of its regions, that
 2     is, that its strength and its identity as a country and
 3     it is not something which -- an identity which is
 4     invented in Toronto and passed down on tablets of stone
 5     or tablets of radio or tablets of television every
 6     morning to the rest of us poor hicks in the rest of the
 7     country.
 8  712                  Regional programming, as you probably
 9     know, in Newfoundland, was cut drastically in recent
10     years.  Radio received a cut of something like 45 per
11     cent, I think.  However, I don't want to speak as a
12     listener but as an audio producer.
13  713                  I have been a radio producer for
14     years.  As an independent radio producer, I have made
15     programs for the past 10 years for CBC and for
16     international broadcasters.
17  714                  I am interested in your question
18     about how well does the CBC fulfill its role.  In the
19     new millennium, should the CBC fulfill its role in a
20     different manner than it has in the past?  I would like
21     to address myself to that if I could.
22  715                  I think the best course of action, of
23     course, for the CBC to move into the millennium would
24     be for the government to reverse the cuts it has made
25     to public broadcasting in the country.  However, what


 1     if government doesn't do that?  It is in that context
 2     that I want to raise a couple of questions.
 3  716                  CBC has not been the only public
 4     broadcaster in the world to be hit by cuts in recent
 5     years and I would like to just talk a little bit, if I
 6     could, about the BBC radio.  I am sure there are people
 7     in the room that know more than I do about the details
 8     of the BBC arrangement, but just briefly, an overview
 9     of it.
10  717                  BBC was hit by cuts a few years ago. 
11     It kind of hit the floor, if you like, with two feet,
12     in a sense, to meet those cuts.  One shoe that it put
13     on was it cut personnel and it made cuts to programming
14     budgets.  The second shoe that it put on was the shoe
15     of cost-effectiveness.  It made an attempt as a kind of
16     a crippled, I think, public broadcaster to at least
17     keep walking on both feet.
18  718                  To give you an example of what I
19     mean.  Take for example radio drama.  It is a highly
20     produced kind of programming.  It is very expensive to
21     produce anywhere.  The BBC approach, in a nutshell, as
22     I understand it, is to cost out their cost of producing
23     any given radio drama.  For example, they cost out what
24     their cost is for the studios, for their equipment, for
25     their personnel, for their producers, for their


 1     supplies, and they come up with a figure of, say,
 2     10,000 pounds for an hour of radio drama produced
 3     in-house at the BBC.  Their conclusion, let's say, is
 4     well, the budget won't permit it.  Because of the cuts,
 5     we can't have any radio drama on the air.
 6  719                  But the second shoe that the BBC hit
 7     the floor with was that cost-effectiveness shoe which
 8     now says, within the BBC, that they will look out of
 9     house for out-of-house independent productions of
10     programming units.  They are required to do that.
11  720                  Let's say they can find, for
12     argument's sake, a radio drama production that can be
13     produced to the BBC standards of excellence in quality
14     and journalistic standards for, let's say, 7,000 pounds
15     for an hour.  Perhaps then, the BBC may want to make a
16     decision that at that cost, that lower cost, perhaps
17     they can keep radio drama on its schedule rather than
18     cutting it entirely.  This is a fanciful example.
19  721                  One of the reasons why I think that,
20     in Britain, independent radio production can sometimes
21     be done cheaper than in-house production at BBC is
22     because of digital technology which has come in --
23     really in the past five-six years, it has really kicked
24     in.  Whereas before that, it might cost you $100,000 to
25     have the kind of studio and equipment to produce


 1     high-quality, BBC-style radio drama, now you can
 2     probably do that for $20,000.  That is what has made a
 3     big difference.
 4  722                  So the BBC is still kind of crippled,
 5     it seems to me, from this distance, but walking with
 6     two feet on the ground in a difficult way.  It has now
 7     a community of independent radio producers in England
 8     which exists to help BBC create cost-effective programs
 9     and get them on the air.  It is not unlike the
10     situation in Canadian television.
11  723                  Thirty-four years ago, I think, most
12     of the Canadian television production was in-house at
13     the broadcasters.  Now, there is a community of
14     independent television producers in this country and
15     they can call together funding from a variety of
16     sources to make their productions work, from the
17     Independent Television Production Fund, from Telefilm,
18     from co-productions with broadcasters, perhaps and
19     sponsors -- I don't know.  Some of our most well-known
20     programs actually come from that kind of a production
21     system, as I understand it.
22  724                  Pamela Wallin is an out-of-house
23     production; it's a co-production.  "22 Minutes";
24     "Dooley Gardens" which just piloted last week, a
25     regional program.  There is a community of independent


 1     producers which exists in Canadian television.
 2  725                  The bottom line is, it seems to me,
 3     if I were the CBC, I would say that perhaps the bottom
 4     line might be that the CBC is enabled to put quality
 5     programs on the air, television programs, at less than
 6     the full cost of producing them if they were going to
 7     do the whole thing in-house like they did decades ago.
 8  726                  When you have a Cabinet Minister -- I
 9     notice we did, last year or the year before -- who came
10     along and decided to try and offer up a stop to the
11     cuts that had been made to public broadcasting.  I
12     noticed that Sheila Copps put $100 million into the
13     Independent Television Production Fund.  She put
14     $10 million into CBC radio.  She couldn't put that
15     money into radio independent production fund because
16     there is no such animal that exists.  So the money went
17     directly into CBC radio.
18  727                  Unfortunately, there was a $3 million
19     accounting error.  So some of that disappeared.  But
20     aside from that, I think what we have been hearing on
21     radio in the past couple of years is the result of all
22     the cuts despite the fact that Ms Copps has put money
23     back into -- some money back into the CBC.
24  728                  I think that I have noticed that the
25     number of highly produced programs are fewer.  I was


 1     looking at the ideas, CBC radio ideas -- winter
 2     schedule just before I came in and if I am not mistaken
 3     -- this is terms of radio documentaries, the number of
 4     repeats on their winter and spring season is about 50
 5     per cent -- something like 48 per cent according to my
 6     notes, I think.  I may be wrong.  I would guess that a
 7     couple of years ago, that was probably more like 20 per
 8     cent at the most.
 9  729                  Dramas are down.  There hasn't been a
10     radio drama produced in this Newfoundland and Labrador
11     region in radio for about five years.  So it seems to
12     me that unlike the BBC approach of trying to stand up
13     with difficulty on two shoes, the CBC radio approach to
14     the cuts has been to stand on one shoe as best as it
15     can.  It has cut personnel and it has cut program
16     budgets.  But it doesn't cost out the cost of in-house
17     production in the same way that BBC does.
18  730                  It means that it may appear as if,
19     let's say, an ideas program, let's say, produced
20     in-house in Toronto, costs nothing.  It may appear that
21     way and nothing is an awful lot cheaper of course than
22     getting it produced any other way.  It does obviously
23     cost something but the CBC producers and executives
24     involved often don't know what the real cost is of
25     producing a given program element.


 1  731                  If the CBC followed the BBC approach,
 2     I suggest that it might find that there would be some
 3     cases in which independent producers could do some of
 4     those productions perhaps more cost effectively in the
 5     same way that in television it is done, like "This Hour
 6     Has 22 Minutes" and so forth, under the funding
 7     structure that exists in television.
 8  732                  Television obviously is commercial
 9     whereas CBC radio is not and perhaps it is that
10     commercial environment in television that has helped
11     drive a more realistic cost accounting structure and to
12     establish funding structures which assist independent
13     producers and the CBC to co-produce creative,
14     cost-effective programs at a cost less than the CBC
15     could do perhaps in-house.
16  733                  So the question you ask is:  In the
17     millennium, should the CBC fulfill its role in a
18     different manner than it has in the past?
19  734                  The question I would ask is:  Will
20     CBC radio in this licence renewal application or some
21     future one be asking the CBC for permission to have
22     commercial sponsorship on radio?
23  735                  I would like to say, by the way, that
24     it seems to me that since the details of this
25     particular licence application by CBC aren't going to


 1     be made public until next month, it certainly would
 2     have been a bit more fruitful to have these public
 3     consultations next month rather than this month when
 4     people would have something concrete to respond to.
 5  736                  However, I would personally be
 6     supportive of a CBC radio which would ask the CRTC for
 7     permission to have some kind of commercial sponsorship
 8     at some time in the future.  Of course, this would be
 9     the second-best option.  I would prefer to have a CBC
10     radio which would have the cuts reversed by the
11     government.  But I think that such sponsorship
12     certainly, if it were done in a tasteful manner, in a
13     way that American public radio sponsorship is done, for
14     example, not so much commercials but at the end of a
15     program in the credits:  This program was brought to
16     you by The Ford Foundation or whatever.
17  737                  I think that something like that
18     could be instrumental in helping to save regional
19     programming in particular from disappearing.  You
20     probably don't know but Newtel, for example, this one
21     corporation in this province, which has put a lot of
22     money into sponsoring arts events in this province, and
23     it seems to me that that has helped the regional art
24     scene survive and to grow.
25  738                  So my suggestion is that if and when


 1     CBC radio makes this move to request permission for
 2     commercial sponsorship from the CRTC -- and I hope it
 3     does and I hope it does it before it is too late -- if
 4     and when that application is made, I would suggest that
 5     the CRTC should consider requiring two things to
 6     co-exist with it.  One would be some kind of realistic
 7     cost accounting for the CBC in-house production
 8     arrangements so that producers -- CBC producers know
 9     how much it costs to make the given program that they
10     are making, and therefore, whether independent
11     producers could help lower their costs or not and
12     therefore whether high-quality programs could in some
13     way be kept on the air for listeners instead of having
14     to eliminate them.
15  739                  The second part of my suggestion is
16     that the CRTC in that instance should really consider
17     perhaps setting up some kind of a public funding
18     structure for radio as exists for television, a fund
19     which would be available for independents in
20     co-productions so that the next time a Cabinet Minister
21     gets generous and decides to pump some money back into
22     radio, she could perhaps get the best bang for her
23     scarce buck by putting it directly into a programming
24     fund.
25  740                  If that happens, I would like to


 1     think that then, in the new millennium, you would have
 2     a community of independent radio producers and
 3     production houses who could cobble together funding
 4     from sponsors, from production funds and whatever, to
 5     help CBC radio survive the cuts by supplying some
 6     national or some regional programming that would
 7     otherwise perhaps have to be eliminated due to the
 8     cuts.  For that matter, you would also have a community
 9     of independent producers who could make high-quality
10     radio productions for export to other broadcasters
11     elsewhere in the world.
12  741                  Thank you.
13  742                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
14     Mr. Brookes.
15  743                  I would just want to note that while
16     I take your point that we are conducting these hearings
17     prior to the public disclosure, if you will, of the
18     specifics of the CBC applications that we did this at
19     this time because we could fit it into the schedule and
20     we wanted general views on the CBC.  We still welcome
21     yours or anybody else's submissions once those
22     applications are made public.  So at that time, you
23     could still make a comment on the details of the
24     applications once they are made public.
25  744                  Ms Moore.


 1                                                        1824
 2  745                  MS MOORE:  I would like to call our
 3     next presenter, Ms Janet Peter.
 4  746                  Is Ms Edythe Goodridge here?
 5  747                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  You can do it right
 6     from there if you wish.
 8  748                  MS GOODRIDGE:  I wonder if I could
 9     beg the indulgence of the Commission to let me share my
10     time with a colleague and friend, Barbara Doran.  Thank
11     you.
12  749                  I am grateful to the Commission for
13     this opportunity to speak to some of its public
14     members.  I would like to welcome you in Gaelic but I
15     thought perhaps you might want a translation.  It's a
16     hundred thousand welcomes on the eve of St. Patrick. 
17     We already have our --
18  750                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  ...
19     --- Foreign language / Langue étrangère
20  751                  MS GOODRIDGE:  Very good.
21  752                  With the time at my disposal, I had
22     considered adding my list to the litany of concerns and
23     complaints that I know you have heard throughout your
24     public consultation and/or to consider doing a critique
25     on some of the more important reports and studies that


 1     have been issued over the past decade on the question
 2     and issues of the CBC.  But I have decided to do
 3     neither.
 4  753                  Instead, I would prefer to try and
 5     address what I consider to be the underlying issue
 6     facing both the Commission and the CBC at the end of
 7     this century, and it is the issue of what I consider
 8     the integrity and mandate of the CBC.  So I would like
 9     to take just a few moments to share with you my views
10     on that issue.
11  754                  The issue for me is one of an
12     institution that is perhaps one of the most important
13     that we have constructed in this nation of Canada and
14     it is for me a legacy that has been passed to us by a
15     handful of people and invested in by millions of
16     Canadians over a very short period in our history.
17  755                  Like many of our other public
18     institutions and custodian institutions, the CBC was
19     also founded on what I believe is a very simple
20     concept, one that there are resources, both
21     intellectual and physical resources in this land of
22     ours and in this nation that must be preserved and
23     reserved, utilized, protected to ensure that they are
24     used for both the public good and maintained and
25     retained for future generations.


 1  756                  I believe that is a fairly simple
 2     concept and it is the foundation of many of our
 3     institutions, not just the CBC, and a very valuable and
 4     prized concept that has given Canada world respect in
 5     many ways, whether these are our museums, our
 6     universities, our universal systems, social and medical
 7     systems or the CBC.  They are predicated on the same
 8     important premise.
 9  757                  That premise promised all of us who
10     have invested in the CBC in these past decades that we
11     would be provided a level of information, even
12     education, investigation, inquiry and that the CBC
13     would celebrate and demonstrate both our struggle, I
14     guess, and many of our aspirations as a society.  These
15     were the promises that the legacy ensured each and
16     every one of us would have.
17  758                  However, I think the issue that is
18     facing some of us, at least in this country -- but
19     before I express my own personal perspective, I think
20     that for these past decades, there have been very few
21     except for some of our politicians and our vested
22     interests who have doubted the purpose, the mandate and
23     the premise for the CBC and our other institutions.
24  759                  However, now, some of us are quite
25     horrified to discover that these very institutions are


 1     not being reformed but deformed, in fact, that they are
 2     now very seriously threatened at a critical stage in
 3     our history, and I would like to touch on that.
 4  760                  Instead of the vision that the
 5     architects of this institution, we have been provided
 6     entertainment, amusement.  We have opened the CBC to
 7     what I call the commercial truckers of North America
 8     and their commodities instead of the option of
 9     introducing sponsorship as we have heard Chris Brookes
10     refer to.
11  761                  We have chosen instead to lay open
12     and bare a public institution with a public mandate for
13     public interest to becoming an electronic highway for
14     commercial commodities instead of a common voice where
15     we would have a different choice to the commercial,
16     sectorial and other interests in our broadcasting
17     system.  We have lost that common voice.  It was in our
18     broadcasting and our discovery that it is becoming more
19     and more a "narrowcasting" instead and our regional
20     limbs of this organization are being amputated.
21  762                  I think that for some of us the CBC
22     and the other institutions that I have identified are
23     in fact very seriously threatened at this stage. 
24     Normally, when those of us who feel passionate about
25     such things reach this stage in our discussion and


 1     debate, we would quote from 1984.
 2  763                  I would prefer to challenge the
 3     Commission to consider an obscure French writer instead
 4     who wrote a book in the thirties, or an essay that
 5     prophesied that those of us in democratic societies
 6     would, over the course of this century, relinquish and
 7     pass over an enormous proportion of our decision-making
 8     to a new class of people, that we would relinquish much
 9     of our day-to-day decision-making apparati and
10     functions to others.
11  764                  The title of his book was called "La
12     Trahison des Clercs" or "The Treason of Clerks" and it
13     is this which I believe we are witnessing, a serious
14     breach of trust that brings us to the question of where
15     the CRTC as another critical, vital instrument of this
16     country will stand on the question of the CBC in the
17     next century.
18  765                  For the rest of us, we can only stand
19     by and make our contributions or lay our complaints. 
20     But there are those of us who believe it is the CRTC
21     that must also be challenged at this time.
22  766                  Thank you.
23  767                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
24     Ms Goodridge.
25                                                        1835


 1  768                  I'm sorry, I missed your name.
 3  769                  MS DORAN:  Barbara Doran.
 4  770                  Thank you for giving me the
 5     opportunity to share the chair with Edythe.
 6  771                  I am an independent producer living
 7     in Newfoundland, a member of the Producers Association
 8     of Newfoundland, a member of NIFCO, a member of the
 9     Directors Guild of Canada, the Writers Guild of Canada,
10     et cetera, et cetera.
11  772                  I sit on several national boards and
12     have had the opportunity quite often to feel like the
13     poor cousin in the room, as a lot of Newfoundlanders
14     feel when we go to represent ourselves on any kind of
15     national scene.  I will, like other people have done
16     here today, go on with the regional whine.
17  773                  It has been said before.  I don't
18     think you can say it enough.  We feel here in this
19     province, as taxpayers, as part of the Canadian mosaic,
20     that our voice is not being heard, not being
21     represented.  It isn't because we don't have the
22     talent.  It isn't because we don't have the resources.
23  774                  As I said earlier today, our own
24     provincial government who, for years, saw economic
25     development as widget-making have finally come on


 1     stream and are now very seriously pumping money into
 2     film and television production, up to 40 per cent of a
 3     budget, which is a very attractive thing.
 4  775                  But if we have nowhere to go when we
 5     have all of these resources, if CBC is not interested
 6     in our programming, then it all is for naught and we do
 7     not have access to other broadcasters as the people in
 8     Ontario do, as the people in British Columbia have
 9     access.  We don't have that access.
10  776                  CBC is it and if CBC do not accept
11     our proposals for drama and for documentary, then there
12     isn't anywhere else to go.  There aren't any other
13     doors to knock on and that is where the regional whine
14     comes from.
15  777                  It is a sense of yes, we are part of
16     this country.  We have been now for 50 years and I
17     think it is time for Canada to pony up on some of the
18     promises that were made with Confederation, that we
19     would feel part of the Canadian family.  Well, we do
20     but we feel like the poor cousin.
21  778                  To get specific, sports on TV, sports
22     on CBC:  I think if CBC television took its cue from
23     CBC radio.  CBC radio knows what it is.  It knows what
24     its audience is.  It knows what they want to hear.  It
25     doesn't try to compete with the other broadcasters and


 1     I know that there are problems when you start talking
 2     about niche broadcasting.  But that is what a success
 3     is.  Whatever enterprise you are running, you have to
 4     know what your audience is and you address that
 5     audience.
 6  779                  If CTV is doing sports and doing it
 7     well, then why is CBC competing with it, taking up
 8     valuable programming time, filling up everybody's
 9     schedule at the network?  I know what your answer is: 
10     Because of the revenue.
11  780                  Well, you are not going to get -- if
12     people are watching CTV, and the advertising dollar is
13     going there, that is a portion of the viewing audience. 
14     The other portion of the viewing audience who is not
15     interested in sports also are consumers and your
16     advertising can be directed towards them.  That is one
17     point.
18  781                  My second point again is a regional
19     point.  We have been stripped here in Newfoundland --
20     there was a time when you could actually get a
21     broadcast letter that would trigger "Telly for
22     Money(ph)" and then all the players were at the table
23     and things happened.  That is how a lot of our local
24     talent was developed, local talent that now all
25     Canadians are enjoying.


 1  782                  It didn't come from nowhere but there
 2     won't be Rick Mercers in the next generation because
 3     there is no place for them to grow.  They grew here
 4     because of the CBC and now that the CBC has been
 5     stripped here, who will develop that talent?  Where
 6     will it come from?
 7  783                  So let's look at setting up regional
 8     programming, and maybe Newfoundland is not big enough
 9     to justify, as we had in the past, two hours on CBC of
10     local programming.  So let's consider another form of
11     region.
12  784                  How about an Atlantic region where we
13     have programming that maybe the people in Ontario and
14     the people in Vancouver are not interested in
15     programming from Newfoundland but maybe they are in
16     Nova Scotia, maybe they are in New Brunswick and in
17     Prince Edward Island?  And take that idea and build on
18     it again.
19  785                  What about a regional programming
20     that included Manitoba, for example?  Maybe we have
21     more in common with the people in Manitoba than we do
22     with the people in Ontario and I think that is worth
23     considering.
24  786                  The thing that could happen as a
25     result of the regional programming, if it is good, good


 1     enough, that is, for the rest of Canada to see, then it
 2     could operate in the same way that Newsworld -- if you
 3     do a program for Newsworld now and the network is
 4     interested in picking it up, it can.  We get our
 5     programs done.  We get it to air.  If it is good enough
 6     for Canada, they can pick it up.
 7  787                  Instead of saying no, all the
 8     decisions for drama in this country will be made by
 9     three people in Toronto, a very, very narrow window to
10     have to go through.  We don't have access to those
11     people.  We don't go to the -- we don't move in the
12     same circles, the $500 cup of coffee or the $1,000 cup
13     of coffee.
14  788                  We have lost the National Film Board. 
15     We have lost the CBC and we do really feel like an
16     island out in the middle of the Atlantic -- cut off.
17  789                  Thank you.
18  790                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
19     much.  I thank you both for your presentations.
20                                                        1840
21  791                  MS MOORE:  I would like to call
22     Ms Annette Stapenhorst.
23  792                  Is Mr. Brent Quilty here?
24  793                  Ms Noreen Golfman.


 1  794                  MS GOLFMAN:  Well, thanks for the
 2     time and thanks for coming.  I share Chris Brookes'
 3     lament that this is happening at this troubled time at
 4     the Corporation, but I applaud your willingness to go
 5     ahead and do this in spite of all that.
 6  795                  I think the timing, in some ways, is
 7     right.  If anything, I think public consciousness has
 8     been raised because of the strike and maybe strikes --
 9     a consciousness raised and directed to CBC and its
10     place in our lives.
11  796                  So I think generally it is probably a
12     good thing and I agree too that in a month's time when
13     we find out what plans CBC has for us, we should all
14     respond in some way.  So I would like to see this as
15     part of an extended conversation.
16  797                  I prepared something lest I go on
17     past 10 minutes and get into lecture mode.  So I
18     thought this would be the safest way of doing it.  So
19     it is a written script, which I have thought about
20     considerably, but it is part again of a longstanding
21     conversation I had with myself and my colleagues about
22     the CBC.
23  798                  In the interest of full disclosure,
24     let me say first that -- well, I am not the
25     Anti-Christ.  Apparently, that happened this afternoon. 


 1     I was identified as the Anti-Christ.  I heard this when
 2     I came in today.  So in case any of you are wondering,
 3     that was me.  I would like to hear more about that from
 4     some of you afterwards but anyhow I am the person
 5     single-handedly responsible for bringing down the
 6     Catholic Church in Newfoundland.
 7  799                  I will tell you that I am Chair of
 8     the Steering Committee of the Friends of Canadian
 9     Broadcasting, a commentator with CBC, now with radio,
10     formerly with TV, and I am a member of the Media Guild. 
11     I am also a Professor of English and Film Studies at
12     Memorial -- that is really my day job -- and currently,
13     President of the Association of Canadian College and
14     University Teachers of English, otherwise known cutely
15     as ACCUTE.
16  800                  I am speaking here tonight with all
17     of these hats, not to mention as a taxpaying resident
18     of Newfoundland, because it would be pointless to
19     pretend that I could take any of these hats off.  But I
20     also need to insist that I am here tonight really as a
21     citizen, as a listener and a spectator, as a baby boom
22     product who has spent most of her almost half-century
23     life, depending on, addicted to the CBC, like a happy
24     addict to chocolate or exercise.
25  801                  It is a fortuitous coincidence that


 1     Ian Morrison, whom you all probably know quite well is
 2     the spokesperson of the Friends of Canadian
 3     Broadcasting, is situated in Vancouver today.  This
 4     wasn't our plan but that is just the way it worked out. 
 5     He went to one coast and I am here.  He is attending to
 6     the hearings in that city of course.
 7  802                  We did not actually compare notes but
 8     it is safe to say that Ian is undoubtedly echoing not
 9     only my thought tonight but also those of almost 80 per
10     cent of the Canadian citizenry who believe in the
11     critical necessity of a sound and healthy public
12     broadcasting system.
13  803                  Exactly a year ago, as the Canadian
14     representative of the Friends, I attended a lively set
15     of meetings in London, England, hosted by a group
16     sharing the same principles and values as our
17     organization, a grassroots group with which some of you
18     might be familiar, called the Voice of the Listener and
19     Viewer.
20  804                  The experience was extraordinary for
21     a lot of reasons but certainly because I was able to
22     mingle, not only with Tony Blair's Cultural Affairs
23     Minister who looked alarmingly like some of our
24     Cultural Affairs ministers, but also with broadcasters,
25     writers, journalists, producers, and artists from all


 1     over Europe.  This conference had been organized to
 2     galvanize attention to the threat to public
 3     broadcasting throughout and partly because of the new
 4     European Union.
 5  805                  It was an intensely empowering and
 6     inspirational set of meetings for me, surrounded by
 7     many people of the BBC who were rationalizing the kind
 8     of changes that Chris Brookes has already talked about
 9     and certainly was very useful for Friends because it
10     reminded us of the devouring trends at work in the
11     international community, of the voracious appetite of
12     private interest and commercial greed, and of the need
13     to resist wherever possible and with as many allies as
14     possible in the international community.
15  806                  Well, at the end of the proceedings,
16     some time had been dedicated on the program to
17     listening to guest representatives from the allied
18     wider world community such as New Zealand, Australia
19     and Canada.  So I spoke.  It was not particularly -- we
20     weren't told that we were given this time in advance. 
21     It was something that those of us who were there from
22     other countries were asked to do pretty much on the
23     spot.  It wasn't hard to come up with something to say.
24  807                  I spoke, a year ago, to the
25     demoralizing efforts of this Liberal government to


 1     undermine the Corporation, of its failed campaign
 2     promises, its stabled funding, its relentless cutbacks
 3     and tragically effective downsizing efforts, its
 4     reductions certainly of local production, its
 5     increasing dependence on advertising revenues, and all
 6     of this in the face of very well-documented results
 7     demonstrating the huge majority of citizen support for
 8     the public broadcaster.
 9  808                  It is fair to say that at the
10     conclusion of my remarks people were not only surprised
11     by what they had heard but they were also astonished. 
12     The notion that the CBC, one of the world's models of
13     broadcasting excellence, could be under siege and by a
14     government indifferent to the will of a nation was
15     unthinkable.
16  809                  Honestly, I felt a little like Alice
17     in a Wonderland of disbelievers who thought that of all
18     systems, certainly the Canadian broadcasting system was
19     immune to the pressures they were feeling in the
20     European Community.  Well, perhaps they were naive but
21     certainly it did strike them as unthinkable.  But yet,
22     this has been happening.
23  810                  I know that thus far and as Doug
24     Saunders reported in The Globe and Mail this morning,
25     the support at these hearings across the country for


 1     the CBC has been large, enthusiastic, emotional and
 2     wide-ranging, and I know that you are hearing
 3     repeatedly impassioned complaints about everything from
 4     the insidious appointment process of the Board of
 5     Directors and President of the CBC, the proliferation
 6     of commercials on CBC television, complaints about
 7     sports, the erosion of quality programming on both
 8     radio and television, the cycles of repetition of these
 9     programs to the increasing centralization of news and
10     general programming at the expense of strong local and
11     regional production.
12  811                  I guess if I were you I would
13     probably be heartened and maybe even overwhelmed by
14     this show of support across the country.  If I were
15     you, I would also welcome points of view but not only
16     reinforce these voices of complaint but also added
17     perspective and context to help shape this cacophony of
18     emotion and high-minded rhetoric into a coherent
19     statement for the future.  So I have been thinking
20     about how to get your attention and I have decided to
21     focus on a couple of matters that come from my personal
22     experience.
23  812                  So to the local.  Again, you have
24     already heard today and in part tonight from people in
25     this community who lament the passing and dilution of


 1     what was once an active, thriving, local production
 2     house.
 3  813                  I am not sure you can appreciate how
 4     demoralizing it might be to have to tell, say, my
 5     university students that if they want jobs as writers,
 6     journalists, television scriptwriters, musical
 7     producers, radio journalists, they cannot look to the
 8     CBC in this region any more to give them the
 9     opportunity to apprentice their skills.  There is
10     nobody home, as Barb Doran has already suggested, to
11     hire them, teach them, train them, more to the point,
12     inspire them to participate in a public broadcasting
13     system committed to quality work.
14  814                  Now, that said of course, it is also
15     true that many, if not most of my students, would
16     rather be a James Cameron than a Terrence McKenna but
17     that is probably another story for another time.  But
18     it is true that if the CBC loses its connection to
19     people's lives at the community level where the
20     broadcaster has always reflected the world back to us,
21     providing us with a sense of who we are, then my
22     students won't have any such models from which to
23     choose.
24  815                  Of course, choice is so much a part
25     of what this is all about, not the illusion of choice


 1     in a world fragmented by the endless array of specialty
 2     channels with specialty content, as far removed from
 3     and as indifferent to people's lives here as a Toronto
 4     hotel.
 5  816                  More worrisome to me, I wonder where
 6     my students, who are educated, energetic, curious, the
 7     best and the brightest young adults in this area, where
 8     they will get a public sense of the country, of
 9     nationhood, of the relation between the local and the
10     national, of the complexity of social relations and
11     their democratic access to it, of the responsibility of
12     citizenry, if all they are ever exposed to is a
13     multi-channel universe of empty sound bytes and the
14     occasional Canadian news report from Toronto.
15  817                  They will not only lack access to
16     participating in the production of their own stories,
17     they will not even have a way, a medium of
18     understanding the country in which they live.  As an
19     educator who likes to think she connects with her
20     students, I often waiver, perhaps daily, between
21     thinking that the new technologies are liberating and
22     transformative and despairing at my students'
23     increasing cynicism, their sense of being
24     disenfranchised from the state, from any discussion of
25     public good, from their depoliticization, from their


 1     awareness of the rights of citizens in a democracy and
 2     the importance of knowledge itself.
 3  818                  At the risk of sounding patronizing
 4     and self-absorbed, I would add that my students might
 5     not care one way or the other if CBC is an active force
 6     in their communities or in the nation itself but
 7     someone has to do the worrying for them and for the
 8     future of their sense of public good, and I worry.
 9  819                  You are no doubt aware of the huge
10     share of the viewing market that CBC television
11     commands in this region, comparable to the large market
12     and for many of the same reasons, of course, that
13     Quebec radio and television, francophone and Quebec
14     radio and television carves for itself.  Listeners not
15     only watch, they shape their whole perception of who
16     they are at the local level.
17  820                  Their politics, their sense of public
18     and social policy, their awareness of local music,
19     drama and comedy derives directly from that collective
20     experience of watching themselves and their distinctive
21     talents showcased night after night.  That utopian
22     experience was actually once real in this area and had
23     no small part in revitalizing a collective sense of
24     identity, if you value that sort of thing.  Such is
25     really no longer the case and things have looked


 1     grimmer and grimmer for some time.
 2  821                  It is quite difficult for me to
 3     accept that this country, or certainly this government,
 4     doesn't really care about the CBC, that it would be
 5     willing to betray the public broadcaster to the private
 6     investors and the commercial market, to fragmented
 7     specialty channel versions of itself, to satisfy both
 8     the Prime Minister's lust for vengeance for whatever
 9     perceived slight and offences and Paul Martin's bottom
10     line, not to mention the wrong-headed plans of the CBC
11     Board itself.
12  822                  I think it is difficult for a great
13     many Canadians to accept this trend as well because a
14     country that willingly surrenders it own voice is in
15     serious danger of not being a country at all or perhaps
16     more to the point, in danger of not being Canada and
17     being more like, well, as Sheila Copps knows better
18     than ever this week, our bullying neighbours.
19  823                  Thanks for your attention.
20  824                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
21     much.
22                                                        1850
23  825                  MS MOORE:  I would like to call
24     Ms Madeleine Florent please.


 1  826                  MS FLORENT:  I am here as an ordinary
 2     Canadian, and as an ordinary Canadian, I can tell you
 3     that it feels pretty strange being in front of a TV
 4     camera.
 5  827                  Mr. Chairman and ladies and
 6     gentlemen, I would like to say first how grateful I am
 7     for the opportunity to address your committee. 
 8     Although I have never participated in this kind of
 9     public consultation before, I believe that it is
10     crucial for members of the public who are concerned
11     about the quality of radio and television broadcasting
12     in this country to speak up on what is often dismissed
13     as a trivial issue.
14  828                  As a proud and passionate supporter
15     of CBC, it was important for me to come here today to
16     add my voice on behalf of a strong public broadcasting
17     system in Canada.  You have asked Canadians how well
18     they think CBC fulfills its role as a national
19     broadcaster.  I would like to answer by telling you
20     what CBC means to me personally.
21  829                  I grew up with the CBC.  I can't
22     remember a time when the CBC wasn't a part of my life. 
23     As a child growing up in Ottawa in the early fifties, I
24     can vividly remember waiting impatiently for the CBC
25     television signal to finally arrive in Ottawa so my


 1     family and I could stop watching a blank television
 2     screen because there was no TV before CBC.
 3  830                  Shows like "The Friendly Giant" and
 4     "Chez Hélène" were constants in my life for many years
 5     as were "Hockey Night in Canada" and "Don Messer's
 6     Jubilee", my parent's favourite programs.  Today, not
 7     many moments go by in the run of a day that either CBC
 8     radio or CBC television isn't on in my home.  A few
 9     months ago, I actually cancelled my cable subscription. 
10     I felt it was a waste of money given that I seldom tune
11     into stations other than CBC.  I do miss Newsworld
12     though.
13  831                  CBC keeps me company when I travel in
14     this province or across Canada.  It connects me with
15     family and friends on the mainland, like my friends in
16     the northern British Columbia wilds who live without
17     electricity but who listen to CBC on a battery-operated
18     radio.
19  832                  CBC entertains, informs, educates,
20     inspires and challenges with top-quality shows like
21     "Here and Now", "As It Happens", "This Hour Has 22
22     Minutes", "The Fifth Estate", "Road to Avonlea", "On
23     the Road Again", "Marketplace", "Ideas", "Dooley
24     Gardens", "Quirks and Quarks", "Cross-Country Check-up"
25     and so on and so on.  You will notice that this brief


 1     list draws on both radio and television and both
 2     regional and national programs.  CBC has something for
 3     everyone.
 4  833                  Some of the programs produced by CBC
 5     have had a lasting impact on my life and I am sure on
 6     the lives of many other Canadians.  They include David
 7     Suzuki's riveting series of "Planet for the Taking" and
 8     "It's a Matter of Survival" which gave us an
 9     astonishing look at the world, our place in it, and
10     what the future may hold.
11  834                  Peter Gzowski's interview with John
12     Robins(ph), author of "Diet For A New America", which
13     changed forever the way I look at food and the way I
14     eat; Michael Enright's recent interview with Maris
15     Gaveau(ph), author of "Flying Blind, Flying Safe",
16     which blew the lid off the aviation industry and told
17     me what I could do to fly more safely; and finally, I
18     am sure everyone will remember Bob Cardy's(ph)
19     insightful program "Antibiotics versus the Superbugs"
20     and his recent investigative report on the Health
21     Protection Branch.  Both raised awareness about
22     important health issues and I believe the latter played
23     a large part and helped Canada's decision on the bovine
24     growth hormone issue.
25  835                  In my opinion, CBC performs a service


 1     that no private broadcaster can hope to do because the
 2     CBC's mandate is not just about increasing their
 3     audience and selling advertising and making money.  CBC
 4     provides a cultural unifying force for Canadians.  It
 5     is the single most important cultural institution that
 6     we have, more important than the National Museum or the
 7     National Art Gallery because it is with us every day
 8     and it is accessible to everyone everywhere in Canada.
 9  836                  As the bovine growth hormone issue
10     illustrates, CBC is also there to act as a watchdog for
11     human interests and concerns.  It reminds governments
12     that they need to listen to ordinary Canadians.
13  837                  The CBC is a national treasure.  It
14     is an investment that Canadians have made, and at a
15     cost of $27.00 per person per year -- Noreen's figure
16     -- it is an asset that costs peanuts compared to some
17     of the other investments our government makes on our
18     behalf.
19  838                  How well does the CBC serve the
20     public on a regional and national level?  Well, of
21     course, things are not quite the same as they used to
22     be and one is left to wonder what the Chrétien
23     government's agenda really is with regards to the CBC. 
24     CBC's ability to fulfill its mandate has seriously been
25     eroded.


 1  839                  There are areas in this country where
 2     regional identity remains intensely vital.  The cuts
 3     made in regional programming over the last five years
 4     have sapped that vitality by creating the impression
 5     that certain regions are of less than national
 6     importance from the human perspective.  I know that in
 7     Newfoundland and Labrador alone, CBC has been cut by 33
 8     per cent in that period and there are forces at work
 9     that threaten CBC's future.
10  840                  I refer to the crippling cuts to CBC
11     by the Chrétien government, which I have already
12     referred to, which have resulted, in addition to a
13     major reduction in the quantity and quality of local
14     and regional programming, in increased repeat
15     programming; the threat of further cuts -- further
16     major cuts next year; the desire of Liberal-appointed
17     CBC Board members to centralize radio and TV news under
18     an Ottawa-based Vice-President, thereby placing the
19     news under the nose of the government and diminishing
20     regional points of view; and pressure from
21     well-financed lobby groups representing private
22     broadcasters, cable monopolies and the advertising
23     industry to decrease the role of CBC to get it out of
24     local news and to permit advertising on CBC radio.
25  841                  With respect to the last point, it is


 1     really no surprise that private broadcasters are trying
 2     to erode CBC programming and that advertisers are
 3     hungrily eyeing shows like "The Morning Show", "Basic
 4     Black", "As It Happens", and others.  Private
 5     broadcasters would like a bigger chunk of the money
 6     pried from the CRTC and advertisers would love to reach
 7     some of the 33 per cent of English-speaking Canadians
 8     who tune into CBC radio every week.
 9  842                  CBC still stands as a model for
10     broadcasters in Canada and many parts of the world. 
11     Although earlier cuts have reduced the voice of Canada
12     around the world, CBC has a very distinctive and unique
13     voice.  Nobody does it quite as well as the CBC.
14  843                  It should be said that despite the
15     cuts, CBC and its staff have still managed to maintain
16     a general excellence in programming.  While it wasn't
17     easy, for example, saying goodbye to "Peter Gzowski"
18     and "Vicki Gabereau", "The Morning Show" and
19     "Richardson's Roundup" now have strong national images. 
20     This is what CBC means to me and I am pleased that
21     there are a great many Canadians who agree with me.
22  844                  Polls have apparently shown that 80
23     per cent of Canadians favour a strong CBC.  Programs
24     like "Land and Sea", "The Fisheries Broadcasts", "Here
25     and Now" and many others are certainly very close to


 1     the hearts of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians.
 2  845                  In this era of 100-cable channels,
 3     the need for CBC is greater than ever to serve as a
 4     vehicle for Canadian stories, ideas, values, amid all
 5     the foreign voices.  It provides the means for
 6     Canadians to talk to us and talk to each other in our
 7     great national diversity.
 8  846                  What would I like to see in the CBC's
 9     future?
10  847                  I wish the CBC and the Chrétien
11     government to maintain the integrity of the CBC now and
12     into the future; restore funding for the CBC to an
13     optimal level to enable the CBC to fulfill its mandate;
14     increase support for local and regional programming;
15     keep commercial sponsorship out of CBC radio; scrap any
16     plans to centralize radio and TV news, thereby
17     protecting the independence of news sources from
18     government interference.
19  848                  Finally, I ask that the Chrétien
20     government bargain with the CBC employees in good faith
21     in order to reach a fair settlement that recognizes
22     that they are the best in the business so that we can
23     end the current labour disruptions and get our programs
24     back on the air.
25  849                  The CBC belongs to Canadians and it


 1     is a vital service that should be protected just as
 2     much as our health-care system and our other social
 3     programs.  This is how I feel about the CBC, and in the
 4     words of the late great French Newfoundland fiddler and
 5     storyteller, Émile Benoit, who himself became known to
 6     Canadians through the CBC, "It comes from the heart."
 7  850                  Thank you.
 8  851                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 9     much, Ms Florent.
10  852                  That is why we are here to hear
11     presentations like that from you, from ordinary
12     citizens among all the others that we have heard.  Like
13     you, I remember going to my next door neighbour's house
14     when the only thing on was the test pattern, waiting to
15     see the first television program, which was the CBC, of
16     course.
17  853                  Ms Moore.
18                                                        1900
19  854                  MS MOORE:  Thank you.
20  855                  Our next presenter is Mr. George
21     Smith.
23  856                  MR. SMITH:  I am here, I guess, as
24     another ordinary listener and viewer of CBC.  I would
25     like to thank you for the opportunity of making a few


 2  857                  I guess I am going to do a little bit
 3     of the regional whine as well and I have kind of
 4     disorganized my comments around the questions that you
 5     have posed for us to use in considering what we are
 6     going to say.
 7  858                  So I will start first with your first
 8     question -- actually, it is not your first one but I
 9     dealt with it first:  How well does the CBC serve the
10     public on a regional as well as national level?  To
11     that, my answer, not surprisingly, is:  Not nearly as
12     well as it used to.
13  859                  Like the speaker before me, I grew up
14     with the CBC and what I see now is a pale shadow, a
15     vestige of what CBC used to be.  Not to give it more
16     credit than is due, but Frank magazine's description of
17     the CBC as a corpse is actually becoming fairly apt. 
18     Here in Newfoundland and Labrador, the erosion of our
19     local programming has continued to the point where
20     there is hardly anything left.  That is not to belittle
21     what is left but it has to be reversed.
22  860                  I think the CBC should reflect
23     ourselves back to ourselves, both locally and
24     nationally.  I think we lost that almost completely and
25     I want it back.


 1  861                  I should say too that I am a
 2     Newfoundlander; I am not an Atlantic Canadian.  However
 3     administratively and convenient the existence of
 4     Newfoundland as separate from the Maritimes may be, I
 5     think it is a reality that the CRTC and the CBC and the
 6     Canadian government has to adapt to and live with.  I
 7     would ask that the CRTC not permit this artificial
 8     construction, Atlantic Canada -- to the extent it is
 9     within your power -- to be perpetuated.
10  862                  Should the programming provided by
11     CBC radio and television be different from that
12     provided by other broadcasters?  I guess it won't be
13     any surprise to you that I am going to answer that with
14     a resounding yes.  Vive la différence!
15  863                  Radio is not nearly as good as it
16     used to be but it is still the best there is.  The
17     strike has really brought this strongly home to me.  It
18     has forced me to browse around the radio dial a little
19     bit and I have to say that I am appalled and I realize
20     now how much I have been coddled by CBC radio and taken
21     it for granted.
22  864                  I had really forgotten how much
23     banality and inane prattle and mindless drivel is
24     spewed out to the drooling masses by commercial radio,
25     and yes, we do have some of that on CBC too.  The


 1     open-line segment on the local "Morning Show" comes to
 2     mind, but even that is nowhere near as bad as the open
 3     sewer shows on the commercial stations and it is
 4     mercifully short.
 5  865                  One of the best things about CBC
 6     radio is there are no ads.  I like that.  We need that. 
 7     I can get my head around the suggestion that
 8     Mr. Brookes made as long as this isn't the thin edge of
 9     the wedge and perhaps allow sponsorship of programs but
10     I don't want to hear some cretins blathering out about
11     Joe's used cars on CBC, thank you.
12  866                  We need more local feature radio
13     production, as has been mentioned here before.  CBC
14     radio has been completely gutted as far as I
15     understand.  I have heard little CBC-produced feature
16     radio recently.  I don't begrudge Victoria, B.C., their
17     CBC radio station and I can't myself imagine having to
18     live without one, but it pains me greatly that one of
19     the prices that was paid for that radio station was a
20     significant downgrading of service and production
21     capabilities here.
22  867                  I think if the CBC comes to you folks
23     looking for new licences, I think you should require
24     that they explain how they are going to fund it without
25     this kind of cutback.


 1  868                  Turning to TV, someone earlier
 2     mentioned sports.  I think CBC should get rid of the
 3     sports.  The commercial operations can make bucketloads
 4     of money doing that kind of stuff and I don't really
 5     see that it is necessary that our public broadcaster
 6     get involved with it.  I can somewhat appreciate the
 7     argument, although I can't agree with it, that having
 8     sports on CBC broadens the CBC's constituency a little
 9     and gets some support from people who may not
10     ordinarily otherwise be supportive of the CBC.
11  869                  So I would suggest that if sports are
12     to be retained on the CBC, at least don't muck around
13     with the schedule and don't go cancelling stuff that
14     regular viewers want to watch to put some stupid
15     playoff on.
16  870                  Again, on TV, the local production
17     has been gutted even more, I think, than radio has. 
18     You folks don't have control over budgets -- I know
19     that -- for the CBC but you may be able to stir the pot
20     nicely by making it a requirement of renewing their
21     licences if they do local production.
22  871                  Finally, with TV, I think we should
23     get rid of the ads.  Let's make it more like radio. 
24     Now, I have heard somewhere that ad revenue on CBC TV
25     is something like $400 million a year and that is a lot


 1     of bread.  So such a move would, I think, have to be
 2     phased in over a number of years both to give them a
 3     chance to fill in the gaps with something interesting
 4     and also to provide time to financially adjust.
 5  872                  Finally, on TV, I would like to say
 6     that I really appreciate Newsworld although I don't
 7     watch it very much.  I don't watch much of any TV, but
 8     Newsworld, I think, is on the right track.
 9  873                  In your view, how well does CBC
10     fulfill its role as the national public broadcaster in
11     the new millennium?  Well again:  Not nearly as well as
12     it used to.
13  874                  I think the loss of regional vitality
14     in the CBC is resulting in a central Canadian centric
15     CBC and that might play well in Ontario but I can tell
16     you that here in Newfoundland, it has given rise to
17     resentment and even a little bit of alienation.  In
18     fact, it was a recent revelation that some small
19     Ontario community was holding an all-you-can-eat
20     ham-bake that sent me exploring the radio dial.  Who
21     cares?
22  875                  With respect to the new millennium, I
23     would like to give kudos to the CBC for their
24     activities on the Internet.  They have really pioneered
25     the use of real audio in, I guess, the formerly


 1     broadcast media and their news Web site is pretty good
 2     and it is getting better.  I can say that having
 3     recently reviewed a number of Canadian news Web sites
 4     for a magazine article I was writing.
 5  876                  The Internet, of course, is the
 6     medium for the new millennium, and if I may briefly
 7     depart from the subject at hand, I think you folks, the
 8     CRTC, should keep your snouts out of it.
 9  877                  There is no public interest to be
10     served by a regulator interfering in the evolution of
11     the Internet.  There is no scarce resource that needs
12     to be meted out to the most deserving.  So I say: 
13     Hands off!
14  878                  But stay with the broadcast media. 
15     The Internet is still a few years away from the kind of
16     ubiquity enjoyed by TV and radio.  We need the CBC and
17     we always will need the CBC.
18  879                  I would like to finish my remarks by
19     kind of saying, if the role of the national public
20     broadcaster is to tell us what is going on in Toronto,
21     then it is time to turn out the lights.
22  880                  If the role of the national public
23     broadcaster is to reflect ourselves to ourselves and to
24     each other, then let's get back to doing that.
25  881                  Thank you.


 1  882                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
 2     Mr. Smith.
 3  883                  Let me ask you:  Given your comments
 4     about the Victoria radio station and your concerns
 5     about while that may have been a good thing to provide
 6     radio for the folks in Victoria, you are more concerned
 7     about the impact of that on the budget for the radio
 8     service and you made reference to Newsworld.
 9  884                  What would your view be with respect
10     to other specialty channels or indeed the Internet
11     which you suggested we should keep our snout out of?  I
12     don't mind that suggestion, by the way, but CBC has
13     suggested they would spend about $20 million on new
14     media and the Internet.
15  885                  MR. SMITH:  I think that is -- I mean
16     it is hard to second-guess the budget decisions.  We
17     here in Newfoundland obviously disagree with the
18     choices that they have made and I understand -- I have
19     been told; I don't know if it is true -- that on a
20     percentage basis, Newfoundland was caught more than
21     anywhere else.
22  886                  I believe that the government needs
23     to belly up with some more money and I know that is not
24     for you folks to determine or dictate but I think these
25     things need to be funded in the public interest and it


 1     is the government's role to do that.
 2  887                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  In the absence of
 3     the government doing that, what would you suggest --
 4     because that is what we are all wrestling with, right?
 5  888                  MR. SMITH:  Well, let's get rid of
 6     the sports.  That should save a few dollars.
 7  889                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  Well, thanks
 8     for your views.
 9                                                        1910
10  890                  MS MOORE:  I would like to call
11     Ms Colette Fleming please.
13  891                  MS FLEMING:  My name is Colette
14     Fleming and I am speaking on behalf of The Right to
15     Life Association of Newfoundland and Labrador.  We
16     welcome you and thank you for the opportunity to
17     address some concerns with media issues.
18  892                  With regard to CBC program content,
19     as a pro-life organization, we would like to suggest
20     that they would serve the public in a more efficient
21     and informative manner by affording equal time to both
22     parties, pro-life, pro-choice, instead of favouring the
23     pro-choice agenda, which is as is demonstrated in both
24     in your documentary and news reports.
25  893                  A case in point:  we will refer to


 1     our provincial government's announcement on abortion
 2     funding in January 1998, which entailed interviews on
 3     both sides.  A team of television reporters visited The
 4     Right to Life office.  They did a 20-minute interview
 5     with the President and when the article was aired, very
 6     rudely cut her off in mid-sentence after 25 seconds and
 7     concluded the article with a 15-minute viewpoint with
 8     the other party.  It was only because we contacted them
 9     to air our displeasure that the President was given a
10     3-minute editorial because of their error in fairness
11     of reporting.
12  894                  Pro-life people are ordinary people. 
13     We are taxpayers.  We hold that life is sacred and we
14     do not believe in any form of violence in attaining our
15     goal of promoting respect for life.
16  895                  The CBC is a public entity.  It is
17     funded by taxpayers and should afford equal time on
18     both sides of this issue.  It should not be too much to
19     expect quality coverage of all news issues and we would
20     like to see documentaries which show abortion in the
21     true light of what it is, the act of the abortion
22     itself and how it impacts on the lives of women who
23     suffer post-abortion syndrome.
24  896                  We would like the media to show the
25     true perception of pro-life people, those who work in


 1     the crisis pregnancy centres throughout our country,
 2     who contribute to help lines, et cetera, and not
 3     programs which negatively exploit our cause.  Why not
 4     some documentary on the Linda Gibbons, the Bernard
 5     Nathansons(ph), the Norman Corbys(ph) which would show
 6     another side of the abortion issue?
 7  897                  It should not be too much to expect
 8     from our media sources that they not be biased on these
 9     issues and that they provide fairness and quality in
10     their reporting.
11  898                  Thank you for letting us make this
12     presentation.
13  899                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
14     Ms Fleming.
15                                                        1914
16  900                  MS MOORE:  I would like to call
17     Ms Joann Harris please.
19  901                  MS HARRIS:  I would like to open by
20     thanking you for the opportunity of speaking.  I will
21     keep it very brief.  It is very informal and I am here
22     as just a private citizen.
23  902                  I will begin my opening remark by
24     saying that I was brought up on the journalist
25     Doyle(ph) news bulletin and I have been a sort of news


 1     junkie, I think, ever since.  When I was bringing up
 2     two children as a stay-at-home mom, CBC was my kind of
 3     umbilical cord to sanity, both for news and for
 4     entertainment.  There are some, of course, who might
 5     argue that CBC has failed in that but nevertheless, I
 6     am here to thank CBC for keeping me more or less sane
 7     during those years.
 8  903                  My remarks are directed solely to
 9     radio.  I don't watch a lot of television.  The local
10     programming is excellent.  I think that, by and large
11     -- I do have some reservations but it is contingent on
12     the host, male or female, very largely.
13  904                  As I was driving up here tonight, I
14     was trying to think, as a sort of middle-aged Canadian
15     citizen, what life would be -- what my perceptions of
16     the country would be without CBC and I simply couldn't
17     imagine that.  I think that CBC, whether one listens or
18     not, is very much a component of the Canadian identity. 
19     So I think it is essential to hold the country
20     together.
21  905                  I do have some suggestions for CBC. 
22     I would like to see that there would be in each
23     national news broadcast -- that there be a news item
24     from each province.  We often hear about other parts of
25     the world more often than we hear about the Prairies


 1     provinces and I think that it would be useful and
 2     helpful to our national identity to hear something from
 3     each of the provinces and territories now.
 4  906                  I think there is a preponderance of
 5     news from the Middle East.  Canada is a cultural mosaic
 6     with connections to the Ukraine, the Pacific Rim,
 7     India, Europe, and so on, and I think that the life of
 8     a policeman is no more valuable whether that policeman
 9     is from the Middle East than from anywhere else.  So I
10     would like to see sort of more international news from
11     more regions of the world, I think.
12  907                  I would also like to hear the views
13     from other countries expressed.  At the moment, one has
14     to read sort of "The Guardian Weekly" or be an
15     insomniac and listen to CBC between the hours of 1 a.m.
16     and 6 a.m. and I think it would be useful to hear what
17     European perspectives are on whatever issues are
18     discussed.
19  908                  The most important point, at least to 
20     me at any rate, is that the world of which we are a
21     part -- and I think when I say "we" I am speaking of
22     the west -- has as its primary driving force economics
23     and not politics.  Multinationals are more influential
24     than many national governments and exert enormous force
25     on governments of major nations, and that of course is


 1     an argument for economic independence of the CBC.
 2  909                  It is unlikely that "The Fifth
 3     Estate" would bite the hand that feeds it.  The press
 4     must remain independent of commercial forces to offer
 5     some points of view or interpretations of issues which
 6     may be less than supportive of any given commercial
 7     interests, and in Canada, only CBC radio really can
 8     claim that status.
 9  910                  It is equally important that CBC free
10     itself from political pressures.  The Prime Minister
11     ought not to hold the power of dismissal over the
12     presidency of the Corporation.  An independent press is
13     critical to democracy.
14  911                  I think that the Prime Minister can
15     speak with moral authority in international fora about
16     human rights and democratic freedoms only if the
17     independence of the press is essentially guaranteed and
18     free from any kind of political domination.
19  912                  Thank you.
20  913                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
21     Ms Harris.
22                                                        1920
23  914                  MS MOORE:  I would like to call
24     Mr. Frank Holden please.


 1  915                  MR. HOLDEN:  Good evening,
 2     Mr. Commissioner.  I am here as a private citizen and I
 3     would like to address in a few brief moments two
 4     important aspects of the very same point just recently
 5     brought up by the lady who just left the microphone.
 6  916                  Political interference with the
 7     national broadcaster to the benefit of partisan parties
 8     in Canada:  The CRTC must make a sustained effort to
 9     keep partisan party influence, back-room and
10     parliamentary influence off mainstream broadcasting,
11     off the mainstream prime time programs.
12  917                  On February 22nd 1996, three days
13     after Mr. Brian Tobin's first provincial election, and
14     which he won by a landslide, Mr. Tobin appeared as the
15     guest on Sunday afternoon of Mr. Rex Murphy on
16     "Cross-Canada Check-Up".  It was a simultaneous radio
17     and television broadcast and it could not have been
18     finalized any more than three days before.
19  918                  From the time the polls closed on
20     Thursday night, February 19th, to the time the program
21     started -- I think, earlier on Sunday afternoon than
22     its normal time slot -- was less than a half-week, less
23     than three days.  Now, this is the same CBC that can't
24     even get their ideas and pamphlets out on time.
25  919                  Mr. Tobin was guest for the entire


 1     afternoon of a close friend and fellow Liberal, Mr. Rex
 2     Murphy.  No critical calls got through that entire
 3     afternoon.  It was held in closed circuit at the CBNT
 4     studios in St. John's on Elizabeth Avenue.  The only
 5     critical calls or comments at all on that nationally
 6     broadcast simultaneous TV and radio program that
 7     afternoon of February 22nd 1996 -- the only ones that
 8     got through were one or two questions from the floor at
 9     CBNT TV studios.
10  920                  I know because I called in.  I was
11     curious.  I wanted to congratulate our new Premier and
12     I wanted to ask him how he got the nickname "Toes
13     Tobin".  Now, the other side -- so it's very clear. 
14     Does anybody happen to know -- would you like to tell
15     us and tell the commissioners how Mr. Tobin got -- does
16     he actually have a name like that?
17  921                  Anyway, there is another side to that
18     coin.  If you can reduce the direct meddling by major
19     partisan politicians -- and that afternoon, by the way,
20     you haven't seen such a love-in since Jesus played
21     Jerusalem on Palm Sunday.  Nobody -- nobody got to put
22     in a harsh word.  Now, that afternoon, we had two
23     Liberals.  Rex Murphy ran for the Liberals once.
24  922                  In fact, if we wanted to look at the
25     Newfoundland political history, we can start with Joey


 1     Smallwood, the "Borrow Man".  We can go right up to
 2     people like Don Jamieson, Bill Callahan, Bill Rowe(ph)
 3     and numbers of people who have had obvious partisan
 4     connections and who have been major political figures.
 5  923                  And they still work -- which brings
 6     me to the next point -- in what is called the political
 7     panels, political professional chattering classes, and
 8     there are some people here who sometimes perform in
 9     them, although I can't say that the company I know this
10     of is of any particular partisan persuasion.
11  924                  But they are all either broadcasters
12     or politicians and they fully control the set
13     induction, the parameters of life experience.  They are
14     asked for an opinion on everything.  You don't get a
15     butcher or a baker or a candlestickmaker.  You don't
16     even get a professional teacher talking about
17     education.  You get someone who is either a media
18     broadcaster or a politician, one or the other, six of
19     one, a half dozen of the other.  It doesn't matter. 
20     Sometimes, they make a mistake.  They put a fellow like
21     Peter Fenwick in who they thought was an NDP.  It turns
22     out he is not.
23  925                  However, what is missing when we
24     don't have this -- what is missing when we have that. 
25     Now if we remove that, what do we still need?  We still


 1     need critical discerning journalism, which is under
 2     serious compromise when it is under the pressure of
 3     major political influence.  I don't know why we had to
 4     cut back on Ray Guy(ph) or a few more other
 5     commentators like Ray Guy and local CBC television
 6     thinks we can't get -- absolutely cannot get enough of
 7     Carl Wells(ph).
 8  926                  However, let me then -- I am halfway
 9     through now.  Let me illustrate one example as to how
10     critical journalism could bump its game up considerably
11     if it had the opportunity to do so without major
12     meddling from the top down.
13  927                  We have an electoral system that
14     really doesn't work for the masses of people.  You have
15     a window of opportunity every three or four years
16     whenever they open it and it flies by like a balloon
17     and you try to jump through it.  That is your window of
18     opportunity, to choose.  You have very little choice at
19     the polls between parties.  This is all cliché.
20  928                  That's why we don't talk about that
21     any more because it goes over our heads.  We don't even
22     think about it any more.  We are already accepting of
23     it.  We don't have anything on the ballot that is --
24     that says "None of the above".  We allow
25     gerrymandering.  We allow all kinds of abuses and


 1     shortcuts to usurp what ought to be a true democracy, a
 2     government of the people, including misinformation,
 3     disinformation, uninformation, any or all of the above.
 4  929                  If you had concerned critical
 5     journalism, you could have people that don't care if
 6     they really are card-carrying members of parties or
 7     not, but at least they will talk critically of
 8     something so simple as an obviously out-of-date
 9     ineffective electoral system.  This electoral system
10     doesn't just predate photography and radio, it predates
11     the cotton gin.
12  930                  The technology is there to find out
13     what people think before you have an election.  You can
14     have an election without having to have an election. 
15     Great!  These are all different ways that the so-called
16     electoral system that we all live by -- and we accept
17     it every day -- we allow all these people to come on
18     the media and to control our public thoughts.
19  931                  We don't hear from a teacher.  No
20     teacher would dare come on media as a private citizen
21     as I am doing now and pass comment.  I wouldn't get on
22     mainstream TV to say this -- or radio to do this.  If I
23     were a social worker, as I once was, I wouldn't dare
24     get on.  I had to take an oath of secrecy to the
25     provincial government, like there is a war on.  Why do


 1     we all have to keep secrets?  No one ever thinks about
 2     that.  Journalism should be asking those questions.
 3  932                  So in summary, get the big boys out
 4     of the CBC please.  It is patently obvious that they
 5     are in there in a big way.  And do something to bump up
 6     the quality of the journalism.
 7  933                  Thank you.
 8  934                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 9     much, Mr. Holden.  I think you would make a good
10     counterpoint to Rex Murphy yourself.
11     --- Laughter / Rires
12  935                  MR. HOLDEN:  Bring him on.
13                                                        1930
14  936                  MS MOORE:  Our next presenter is Paul
15     Pope.
17  937                  MR. POPE:  Thank you.  I am here
18     basically representing the Newfoundland Independent
19     Filmmakers Cooperative.  It is an organization that was
20     formed in 1975 and at the time the organization was
21     formed because of the film activity in Newfoundland --
22     film and video activity at the time.  There was quite a
23     bit.  There was like a burgeoning CBC.
24  938                  CBNT locally had a huge plant and a
25     lot of material on the go and there was the film unit


 1     at the University that was producing amazing work like
 2     the "Challenge for Change" series out of Fogo.  At a
 3     certain point, they had their own television station,
 4     channel 13, which I am sure we remember.
 5  939                  That was 1975.  Here we are
 6     approaching the millennium and I am really sorry to say
 7     that we are the only ones left, that NIFCO has stayed
 8     and that the CBC hasn't grown with us.
 9  940                  The significant thing about -- my
10     whole pitch is for regional production, completely for
11     regional production because I think a lot of us believe
12     that it is not possible to have a national system that
13     is centralized into just a couple of areas, that to be
14     a national system, the system has to be represented in
15     as many places as possible.  That is where the problem
16     with the CBC is, that term "as many places as
17     possible", and if Halifax, Toronto, Montreal and
18     Vancouver are going to be it, then I don't think what
19     you have is a national system.  So the definition of a
20     national system is a very funny thing.
21  941                  The interesting question -- I went
22     through the questions.  I think they have all been well
23     answered but:  Is there a special role that the CBC
24     should play and should it look different?
25  942                  I received a letter from Ryerson, a


 1     place I graduated from some years ago.  They were
 2     letting me know, as an alumni, that I would be
 3     certainly interested that the basketball team for the
 4     first time ever had made the finals.  The finals were
 5     going to be in Halifax, and since it is right in my
 6     neck of the woods, perhaps I would like to go over and
 7     root for the old team, you know, and meet some fellow
 8     alumni.  I just shook my head and said -- if I bought
 9     it, I could write them and say, well actually, it is
10     closer to you.  Will you go on my behalf?  But I
11     decided not to.
12  943                  These are the problems that the
13     nation has, that the people of Canada know very, very
14     little about Canada, to the point that most people
15     believe Newfoundland is only half an hour different
16     regardless where you are in Canada because CBC has at
17     least taught them that -- and incorrectly -- so I mean
18     the problems that the country faces in its small
19     population over a huge area of land is that we know
20     very, very little about each other, very, very little,
21     and as this so-called national network centralizes
22     more, that problem will increase.
23  944                  I would just like to touch on -- I
24     think it was what Barbara said about where are the
25     people coming from that are going to make programs and


 1     if there is only national programming made, then you
 2     have taken out of the system huge hours of programming
 3     that are created at a regional level, that are largely
 4     for regional consumption but also available for
 5     national consumption.
 6  945                  If you take these -- well, what we
 7     have seen with all of this programming taken out of the
 8     system is where are they?  Where are they coming from? 
 9     Where is -- like "22 Minutes" is on the air today
10     because of a show called "The Root Cellar" that was
11     produced here 15 years ago at CBNT, and if Jack
12     Callum(ph) hadn't been involved in "The Root Cellar"
13     and produced it at that time with Bill Donovan and the
14     crowd that were around, who consequently went on --
15     that led to "CODCO" being produced out of Nova Scotia
16     because the financial regime was better with the Nova
17     Scotia government, the CBHT had a bigger studio, Bill
18     Donovan had moved over.
19  946                  So the "CODCO" television series ran
20     its course and then "22 Minutes" became -- you know,
21     it's usually successful.  It is like the CBC puts it
22     straight and centre.  But everyone should be crystal
23     clear that a bunch of people, you know, Ron Hynes and
24     the crowd doing "The Root Cellar" are the second or
25     third step of that.  We go back to "Up At Ours"(ph). 


 1     We go back to the other programs that were made at the
 2     station.  They would be the first step in those shows
 3     being made.  So that is the problem.
 4  947                  Should the CBC look special?  Being
 5     Canadian in terms of the legislation like the prime
 6     time Canadian programs, the canadianization of the
 7     prime time schedule in television, if you are defining
 8     Canadian as a point system that seven of the ten people
 9     are Canadian and that it is a Canadian production
10     company and stuff, then that may not necessarily be
11     completely the best way because if you look at -- for
12     instance, the show "Da Vinci's Inquest"(ph), which is,
13     I think, one of the best Canadian American shows that
14     Canada makes.  That's like "Traders".  They were
15     getting close to it.  And "Night Heat" was like a
16     really failed -- it was a CTV show, I know, but a
17     really failed attempt at it.
18  948                  So if the goal is to be able to sell
19     in the American marketplace as a Canadian production
20     company, and that is what we all have to pass to get
21     through, then it is a real bastardization of the term
22     "Canadian".  So I think the CRTC should be very much on
23     the look of that and I think that when you concentrate
24     production into three centres and when you concentrate
25     it into the hands of very large companies such as


 1     Alliance, Atlantis, and Rombus(ph) and so on, when you
 2     concentrate it into those people who are publicly
 3     traded companies and that they are going to make money,
 4     they are going to have to make a material that will
 5     sell in the United States, and if it is a prerequisite
 6     that our material must sell in the United States for it
 7     to be produced, then simply scoring seven out of ten
 8     and having a Canadian-based production company, I am
 9     not certain makes it what we would think of as
10     Canadian.
11  949                  I think that that in the long run
12     will be harmful for the CBC, which brings me back to
13     that if it is a wider group of smaller companies, in
14     addition to some of these larger companies, if there is
15     a wider group of smaller companies throughout Canada --
16     and I am including smaller companies based right in
17     Toronto, I am including companies in Thunder Bay,
18     companies in Newfoundland -- that the Corporation will
19     have a better chance at creating material like "22
20     Minutes" that will bring its audience because
21     1.2 million viewers is outstanding.  They always talk
22     about the million viewer mark.  Now, with the
23     fragmentation, they are down to the 700,000 viewer
24     mark.
25  950                  So if the CBC wishes to survive, they


 1     should be looking at the region as a resource and not
 2     as an expense.
 3  951                  Thank you.
 4  952                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
 5     Mr. Pope.  Just a couple of questions coming up from
 6     your presentation.
 7  953                  First, taking your point about
 8     getting back to -- I guess it was "The Root Cellar",
 9     the original "CODCO" genesis, I guess.  How would you
10     propose we get back to that kind of situation?
11  954                  MR. POPE:  Well, I think that if you
12     -- even for instance, if you went on a trend of under
13     the guise of research and development.  It's like if
14     the Corporation just said that in our long-term future,
15     we have to be developing talent.  It is like any good
16     corporate decision.  If you make computers, if you make
17     an automobile, there is a large chunk of your money
18     that is spent on research and development.
19  955                  So under the research and development
20     mandate, to allow organizations to grow and to not just
21     vanish, not to go into oblivion, that that itself would
22     mean that there should be some productions that are
23     taken out of the broadcast centre decision chain, that
24     are put back into the regional directors, that these
25     people are empowered and measured on their ability and


 1     that they would be given some autonomy to make some
 2     decisions based on they are on the ground.
 3  956                  They will likely know who is in the
 4     community.  They will likely know who can work whereas
 5     if your whole environment is in the broadcast centre,
 6     then you are not going to have the familiarity with
 7     northern B.C. or with Winnipeg as the Regional Director
 8     that is there -- so under the research and development
 9     and to bring forward because right now the CBC is
10     living off the work that was done over the last 20
11     years and if it continues to try to live off that, it
12     will die.
13  957                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  So you would take
14     some of the money from the network and put it back into
15     the regions, and if I take Mr. Smith's point, you
16     wouldn't call this the Atlantic region, you would go
17     down to the provincial level?
18  958                  MR. POPE:  Well, the CBC right now is
19     seven regions and CBNT, which is the smallest CBC
20     region is -- we have heard for years -- there has been
21     talk of us becoming a bureau and that we would function
22     out of CBHT and there would just be some camera people
23     here.  I think the seven that they have should be
24     protected but in the way that Victoria received a radio
25     station, that the same way, I think, like New


 1     Brunswick, which has never properly been served by the
 2     CBC, largely because of -- I am not going to name names
 3     but you can figure it out.  New Brunswick has never
 4     really been served by the CBC.  I think it is time that
 5     something more could be done in there.
 6  959                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  You talked about
 7     the programs like "Da Vinci's Inquest".  You talked
 8     about it being -- I think, to use your word, was a
 9     great Canadian American show?
10  960                  MR. POPE:  Yes, it is the best
11     Canadian American show that I think that we have done. 
12     Now, everybody in Canada knows that.  We have "Hooker
13     Alley"(ph) and all the drug problems in Vancouver,
14     which they have probably had to exaggerate and stuff,
15     but you could put Chicago, put Detroit anywhere -- I am
16     not sure.  I like "Da Vinci's Inquest" as I like some
17     American shows.  I am not knocking American television
18     per se.  I am just saying that if they are going after
19     American sales for that -- that is one of their
20     financial plans.
21  961                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, that was
22     going to be my question because you also referred to
23     "Traders" and other programs that would probably have
24     some commercial value in the U.S., perhaps with the
25     U.S. networks or cable networks.


 1  962                  Do you think the Commission and/or
 2     the CBC should draw a distinction between those kinds
 3     of programs that may have foreign sales and the kinds
 4     of Canadian programs that you would define that perhaps
 5     would be more Canadian and might not have those foreign
 6     sale opportunities?  Is that what the CBC should be
 7     concentrating on, in your view?
 8  963                  MR. POPE:  Well specifically, what my
 9     point was about -- the definition of what is Canadian,
10     like, is it so important that prime time be 100 per
11     cent Canadian that the demand to make it 100 per cent
12     Canadian requires the broadcaster to put less and less
13     money into the licensing of it?  As the CBC puts less
14     and less money into the licensing of it, it is more
15     reliant on foreign partners to come in and buy.  So
16     consequently, the American appeal has to be greater for
17     those partners.
18  964                  My point was I am not denying anybody
19     foreign sales but if we go back to a CRTC hearing in
20     the early eighties which was then held at the Hotel
21     Newfoundland -- I guess your budgets were better in the
22     heydays -- and closer to downtown.  I think there was
23     coffee and juice and muffins -- water will do but
24     that's fine.
25  965                  At that particular time, they were


 1     struggling with Canadian content, whether it was a
 2     screen minutes or a percentage of budget.  The great
 3     Canadian content was we would drag the cameras out and
 4     shoot church on Sundays.  There was a nice hour and a
 5     half Canadian content and you would add it in.
 6  966                  The CRTC very cleverly during those
 7     periods adjusted the Canadian content as a percentage
 8     of budget spent in terms of acquisitions.  What they
 9     were doing at that time -- and please correct me if my
10     memory fails me -- what they were doing at that time
11     was they were saying, okay, we are going to let you
12     produce less Canadian programming but at a higher value
13     based on the fact that if you can put your money into
14     fewer films that they will be of better value and be of
15     more relevance to Canadian audiences.
16  967                  I think that was a very good
17     initiative and we have seen a lot of positive things
18     come from it.  But I just worry that with this whole
19     Canadianization of prime time and making this big
20     fanfare that we are nearly at 100 per cent prime time
21     is that while it sounds really good on the surface and
22     seems really good, the side effect of it is that the
23     CBC, what they are paying per program, their licence
24     fee per program, their percentage of ownership in the
25     program is reduced to a point that they are not the


 1     player that they should be.
 2  968                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
 3                                                        1945
 4  969                  MS MOORE:  Our next presenter is
 5     Mr. Desmond McGrath.
 7  970                  MR. McGRATH:  Thank you very much for
 8     having your hearings here today.  I am here today in
 9     two different capacities.  One is as a private citizen,
10     Desmond McGrath, and the other is as a founding member
11     of a group called Survive that was quite successful in
12     cancelling the federal government's policy in the
13     destruction of the remaining 24 staffed lighthouses
14     here in Newfoundland and Labrador.
15  971                  I had to bring that point up because
16     if it had not been for CBC, both radio and television,
17     there would not be 24 staffed light stations remaining
18     in Newfoundland and Labrador today, primarily because
19     none of the major television networks and none of the
20     radio networks in Canada today do any investigative
21     journalism and do any exposés on government policy and
22     how the government in Canada, particularly the federal
23     government, is against the people.
24  972                  I think that looking back at the good
25     work that CBC, on a national level, did, exposing what


 1     was going on in light station destaffing on both coasts
 2     and tied it together as a mutual interest story for all
 3     Canadians, both out in B.C. and in Newfoundland,
 4     provided a lot of impetus and gave a lot of public
 5     support which then filtered back up to Ottawa and which
 6     resulted eventually in David Anderson cancelling the
 7     light station destaffing and putting it on hold, and
 8     not only putting it on hold but establishing funds for
 9     the preservation of the staffed light station heritage
10     on both coasts of Canada.
11  973                  As part of that, I discovered that
12     there are a lot of things going on in Canada from a
13     media perspective that the CRTC needs to examine with a
14     fine tooth comb.
15  974                  One of those aspects is the fact that
16     when did anyone in this country hear a politician or a
17     member of the federal government criticize CTV or
18     criticize any of the corporate mainstream media.  It
19     doesn't happen because what you will find is you will
20     find that the mainstream corporate media is owned and
21     controlled by the very same people who own and control
22     Ottawa and when you hear a politician crying about the
23     media in this country, he is always poormouthing and
24     downmouthing CBC.
25  975                  Now, a lot of people who gave


 1     presentations here tonight talked about Canada.  What
 2     you have to realize is that Canada, contrary to the
 3     Jean Chrétiens and the Paul Martins of this world,
 4     Canada is a federation.  It is a federation of
 5     sovereign provinces.
 6  976                  Newfoundland and Labrador is a
 7     sovereign entity and that sovereign entity was
 8     recognized as the Dominion of Newfoundland under the
 9     Statute of Westminster of 1931, of having all of the
10     powers of the Imperial Parliament that both gave Canada
11     and Newfoundland birth and that we could pass any laws
12     we wanted and we were even given exclusion from the
13     Colonial Laws Validity Act.  The only thing was that we
14     had our own Constitution and our Constitution was
15     founded on the basis of anglo-saxon common law going
16     back into the mist of time to the Magna Carta.
17  977                  The reason I mention that is because
18     one of the fundamental principles of democracy and the
19     freedoms that we enjoy as Canadians is the freedom to
20     speak, to speak our own minds, to be able to criticize
21     government when government appears to be working
22     against us, and it is very unfortunate that here in
23     this country we have the fraction of a percentage of
24     Canadians who own 99 per cent of Canada, buying up the
25     oxygen supply of our democracy.


 1  978                  I am talking about the Conrad Blacks
 2     of this world who buy up all of the media, both print
 3     and televised and radio broadcast, and it is to the
 4     detriment of this country.  I think one of the real
 5     problems that people have to realize that we have in
 6     this country is that we have no money and that was one
 7     of the things that was underlined when I first went to
 8     Ottawa to complain about the destaffing of light
 9     stations.
10  979                  I was told by our current Premier,
11     Brian Tobin, "We have no money."  So I went back and
12     analyzed why we have no money in this country.
13  980                  What I discovered is that when
14     Newfoundland and Labrador joined Canada in 1949,
15     Newfoundland and Labrador had a fairly healthy economy. 
16     It had money in the bank.  Fifty-six per cent of all
17     its revenues came from customs and excise duties, which
18     were in a sense indirect taxes, taxes on privilege,
19     taxes on corporations and very little of our revenue as
20     a separate country actually came from people's
21     individual pockets, the pockets of the people, or taxes
22     on civil rights and property.
23  981                  At the same time in Canada,
24     approximately 46 per cent of all government revenues
25     that went into the federal government's kitty came from


 1     the corporate sector.  At the same time, about 44 per
 2     cent of government revenues came from the public purse. 
 3     Ever since then, there has been a divergence and if
 4     anyone can get the statistics out of Revenue Canada --
 5     they seem to be very secretive about it.  They don't
 6     like telling people exactly what they do or where they
 7     get their money.
 8  982                  But what you will find is now about
 9     3-4 per cent of federal government revenues come from
10     the corporate sector and that 90 plus per cent of
11     revenues come from people's pockets.  What it means is
12     now that the federal government of this country has
13     gone from taxing privilege under customs and excise and
14     indirect taxes to taxing property and civil rights.
15  983                  One of the fundamental civil rights
16     that we have in this country, of course, is the press
17     and the media, and because the country was set up in
18     such a way as a federation, there was a basic division
19     of powers that were entered into at Confederation, at
20     union in 1867.  Those division of powers surrendered
21     certain very specific enumerated powers to the federal
22     government.  The provinces kept the lion's share of
23     powers including everything of a local and personal
24     nature, including the right of direct taxation and
25     including civil rights and property.


 1  984                  Now, what is interesting is that the
 2     CRTC as an entity came about as a result of a Privy
 3     Council decision and that radio and television didn't
 4     exist when Canada was formed in 1867.  We had morse
 5     code.  Here in this province, we had the first
 6     transatlantic cable.  We had messages going back and
 7     forth between here and Valencia(ph) in Ireland.
 8  985                  But as a public medium and as a
 9     method of expression in terms of freedom of the press,
10     if you want to call the televised media, both televised
11     and radio, a function of the press, it didn't exist. 
12     So as a result, it was a Privy Council decision that
13     gave the federal government control over the media.
14  986                  Now, I want to get back to the
15     concept of money.  CBC was founded in current terms, in
16     reality, in the 1930s.  When we were in severe economic
17     crisis here in Canada, Newfoundland had its own
18     broadcasting corporation, the Newfoundland Broadcasting
19     Corporation, and we had public radio in Newfoundland,
20     in spite of the fact that we were beggars on our knees,
21     begging to join Canada.
22  987                  There is much disinformation out
23     there these days about the true instances of what
24     Newfoundland was actually like in the 1930s and 1940s
25     that people of my generation don't really know the


 1     truth any more.
 2  988                  But getting back to the principles is
 3     that we are seeing in this country the fact that our
 4     public broadcaster and all of its good programs, all of
 5     its investigative journalism is being gutted because
 6     the government is telling us that it has no money.  At
 7     the same time, the reason the government doesn't have
 8     any money is because it sold the shop.
 9  989                  It sold the shop to the transnational
10     corporations, to the multinationals who come in and
11     rape and pillage our resources, to the offshore fishing
12     companies that come and go with enormous amounts of
13     fish in exchange for nuclear reactors and grain from
14     Saskatchewan.
15  990                  The very thing that we have to do in
16     this country and the very thing, I think the CRTC has
17     to go back and question the federal government on is: 
18     Are the problems with CBC a symptom or are they a real
19     illness?
20  991                  I think they are a symptom.  They are
21     a symptom of the fact that the federal government of
22     this country is practising social engineering on the
23     extremities of the country and that ever since 1984
24     when our former Prime Minister, Brian Mulroney, said,
25     "Give me a decade or so, you won't recognize this


 1     country", that is exactly what he has done.  You won't
 2     recognize this country.
 3  992                  We have a federal government that
 4     wants to think that Canada is a unitary state.  It is
 5     trying to manipulate CBC under the guise of budgetary
 6     cutbacks and the removal of funding to the extremities
 7     of this country, what I would call social economic
 8     hypothermia to give us the illusion that some sort of
 9     fiscal efficiencies can be achieved by congregating
10     Canadians, by congregating the Canadian ideology and
11     the Canadian culture into growth centres.
12  993                  It is no more different than the
13     whole concept of growth centres that went on in this
14     province during resettlement.  We had to bring the
15     people in from the headlands, out where they were close
16     to fish, and put them up in the ends of the bays where
17     they couldn't fish any more so they could go on social
18     assistance.
19  994                  Everything that is going on in this
20     country is diverting us away from the truth and I think
21     the truth is that we have a federal government that has
22     gone out of control and that we need more than ever a
23     public broadcaster, not a state media outlet.  By a
24     public broadcaster, I mean a broadcaster that is
25     accountable to the public, delivers entertainment to


 1     the public and also does investigative journalism on
 2     the public's behalf when the government is against the
 3     public.
 4  995                  There is no people more hopelessly
 5     enslaved than those who do not believe that their
 6     government is against them.  Here in this country, we
 7     are constantly in a state of unease because the threat
 8     of Quebec separation is being held over our heads like
 9     a police state truncheon as though, "Oh, Quebec is
10     going to leave.  Quebec is going to leave."  Quebec is
11     being pointed at as being the bad person in Canada, and
12     in actual fact, Quebec is not.
13  996                  Everything that Quebec does as a
14     country, as a sovereign entity within the Canadian
15     federation of sovereign entities, it is
16     constitutionally obliged to do.  Quebec is the only
17     province in Canada that has been consistently upholding
18     the agreements that have been entered into ever since
19     1867 and I find it very strange that the federal
20     government, and sometimes using our public broadcaster
21     CBC, puts a big spin on it and tries to tell the people
22     of Canada that Quebec is the problem.  Quebec is not
23     the problem.
24  997                  The problem is that Ottawa wants to
25     be a unitary state and it wants to turn all the


 1     provinces into municipalities and then it wants to
 2     distribute the CBC back into the more prosperous
 3     municipalities in a manner which Ottawa deems to be
 4     most cost-effective and economically efficient.
 5  998                  I would just like to close it off as
 6     that the whole concept of economic efficiency is not
 7     all that it is cracked up to be because in 1936, Time
 8     magazine went and voted Adolf Hitler as being the Man
 9     of the Year and you can see what he did within a short
10     decade.
11  999                  Thank you, sir.
12     --- Applause / Applaudissements
13  1000                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
14     Mr. McGrath.
15  1001                 Now, I am not sure -- we had several
16     other people on the list who had indicated they were
17     going to be here after 8:00.  Is there anybody else
18     here who wanted to make a presentation here tonight?
19  1002                 Yes, sir, what is your name?
20  1003                 DR. KENNEDY:  Bill Kennedy.
21                                                        1955
22  1004                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  You can go
23     now and then the lady in the back.
24     --- Off microphone / Sans microphone
25  1005                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  You are Joan Clark


 1     and company.  Okay, after the gentleman here.
 2  1006                 Okay, sir, you can go.
 4  1007                 DR. KENNEDY:  Thank you very much.  I
 5     didn't expect to go this fast, so I am still breathing
 6     rather heavily from the rain.
 7  1008                 I would like to thank you for the
 8     opportunity to speak here tonight and to have the
 9     opportunity again to express some of my thoughts and
10     some of my feelings, I guess, about the Canadian
11     Broadcasting Corporation.
12  1009                 I would like to begin to put the CBC
13     into what I believe is the Canadian context.  Canada, I
14     think, can best be thought of as a sort of gestalt,
15     that is, a holistic system which gets its reality from
16     the sum of its various parts or what we call its
17     subsystems.  These subsystems generally -- I suppose we
18     could call the provinces the regions and the
19     communities within the regions and all of these
20     geographic entities, or subsystems we could call them,
21     are constituted by the people that inhabit them.
22  1010                 Canada then, to me, is only as
23     healthy and as progressive as each of the subsystems
24     are at any given time.  Any weakness in any of the
25     subsystems is a weakness in the whole of Canada.  For


 1     me, the CBC is a subsystem of that gestalt or the
 2     supersystem that we call Canada.  The CBC is the
 3     communication subsystem.  It is a necessary and
 4     essential part of the glue that holds the concept
 5     "Canada" together.
 6  1011                 How do we define the CBC?  First of
 7     all, for me, it is Canadian.  It is an integral part of
 8     that system we call Canada.  Secondly, it broadcasts,
 9     which means, I guess, to disseminate knowledge or
10     information.  Actually, if you look it up in the
11     dictionary, it says, "to spread by radio", which is
12     interesting.  It is an old definition obviously. 
13     Thirdly, it is a Corporation.  In fact, it is a Crown
14     Corporation.
15  1012                 If we look at these in a little more
16     detail, Canadian means Canadian.  That means the CBC
17     belongs to Canada and hence to the people of Canada. 
18     This means that all people of Canada, whether they be
19     in some remote corner of the Territories or a farm
20     village in Saskatchewan or a remote logging community
21     in British Columbia or a remote fishing village in
22     Newfoundland, all own and all must have equal access to
23     the CBC.
24  1013                 This also implies that not only
25     should they have equal access to the CBC but they


 1     should also have input into what happens in and on the
 2     CBC.  This does not mean that only the regions of
 3     Canada have input but the local communities must also
 4     have access and input.
 5  1014                 CBC broadcasts, that is, it reaches
 6     people through two media, namely, radio and television. 
 7     I will look at these separately.
 8  1015                 Let me say right off the top that I
 9     believe that we have one of the finest radio networks
10     in the world.  ABC Australia comes quite close to me
11     and BBC an down the line.  May I make a note here and
12     that is:  please keep our international service.  In
13     the age of global technology, it is indeed puerile to
14     even think that we can isolate ourselves.  We need
15     them, the world, and they need us.
16  1016                 Radio should be information, that is,
17     information in news and current events.  Hourly
18     newscasts, morning programs, evening programs such as
19     "Ideas", "Quirks and Quarks", et cetera, fall into this
20     category.
21  1017                 Radio should be entertaining, that
22     is, drama, music, et cetera.  I think radio, too,
23     excels in this area and has a variety of programming,
24     including a variety of music.
25  1018                 I think that the CBC radio, Radio


 1     both One and Two, are on the right track.  Why? 
 2     Because it is distinctive radio and I just want to
 3     repeat that.  It is on the right track because it is
 4     distinctive radio and I would ask you to keep it that
 5     way.
 6  1019                 Let's not call our programs "shows". 
 7     There is the danger that we slip into the hype of
 8     commercial radio without the commercials -- and hype,
 9     by the way, is more distinctively American than
10     Canadian.
11  1020                 We have two radio stations:  Radio
12     One and Radio Two.  Let's keep those two.  We do not
13     need a third.  Any money that is to be spent on radio
14     should be centred on these two.  Keep them distinctive. 
15     Keep them Canadian.  Keep them commercial-free and that
16     includes the hype.
17  1021                 If I had to say one negative thing
18     about radio, it would be that it is not local enough in
19     its programming.  Radio, as I said before, should be
20     community-centred, I mean represent all communities. 
21     It should have input and programming from all size
22     communities and not only the bigger centres and I guess
23     I am speaking here against regionalization.
24  1022                 Now, CBC television:  I need a shot
25     of positive thinking here.  I am sorry but I really


 1     don't share the same positive thoughts about CBC
 2     television as I do about CBC radio.  For me, CBC
 3     television is neither fish nor fowl.  For me, it is a
 4     lame excuse for what I would define as public
 5     broadcasting.
 6  1023                 I think CBC television has to make up
 7     its mind.  Is CBC television a public broadcasting
 8     corporation or are we just another commercial
 9     quasi-public broadcasting company?  I ask the question: 
10     What is distinctive about CBC television?  What
11     distinguishes it from ABC, from NTV, et cetera?
12  1024                 I see it as riddled with a lot of
13     Americanism -- and I say that in its kindest way -- and
14     commercialism.  I feel sometimes that my tax dollar is
15     going to subsidize a non-distinct -- that is from a
16     Canadian perspective -- a non-distinct run-of-the-mill
17     commercially-driven network.
18  1025                 Now, let me say that I believe that
19     CBC is making a valiant attempt to produce Canadian
20     programs and I submit that, by and large, what they do,
21     they are done very well.  I would include "The
22     National" here and "The Journal", if we ever get them
23     back.  However, these too, I feel, are too commercially
24     driven.  When I watch -- or should I say now, when I
25     watched the evening news program on CBC, I'm appalled


 1     at the number of commercials and not only that but the
 2     commercialist tone of the program.
 3  1026                 I ask the question:  Why does CBC
 4     have to try to imitate the commercial stations?  What
 5     now differentiates the local CBC evening news hour, the
 6     public broadcaster, from the NTV local news hour, the
 7     private broadcaster?  May I suggest:  Very little.
 8  1027                 Again, the question for me is:  What
 9     is distinctive about CBC television?  I could mention
10     sports but I will let that one go.  I think there is
11     too much emphasis on sports.  One of the interesting
12     things happened though when the strike -- or the labour
13     and management -- happened.  We lost a lot of CBC
14     programming but, by God, we kept the hockey games,
15     which was very interesting.
16  1028                 For CBC television, may I suggest, as
17     we approach the millennium, that we do one of three
18     things:  one, we go to a publicly funded,
19     commercial-free and distinctive Canadian television
20     programming -- distinctive Canadian television
21     programming, commercial-free; or we give serious
22     thought to buying air time on other networks to air
23     distinctive Canadian programs and/or to subsidize them
24     to produce and air Canadian programs; or, three, that
25     we get out of the television business altogether and


 1     concentrate on radio.  Given the 500 or so channels
 2     that now exist, maybe that's not a bad idea but that
 3     would be my least of the three, to see that happen.
 4  1029                 Another issue that I would like to
 5     briefly comment on is the accountability and the
 6     appointment of the Board of Directors of CBC.  My
 7     belief is that the CBC Board, like other publicly
 8     funded boards, should be accountable to its funding
 9     body, in this case, the federal government.  But it
10     must not be a slave to it.
11  1030                 It must also see itself as being
12     accountable to the people of Canada and to realize that
13     having a lot of money isn't really the answer to all
14     our ills, certainly to some of them, but it is how the
15     money is used that is more important.
16  1031                 I believe the appointment to the
17     Board should be done, I would grant, by Cabinet,
18     federal Cabinet, and should be comprised of a number of
19     persons who are familiar with that gestalt I mentioned
20     of Canada but also those who are knowledgeable in the
21     area of broadcasting.
22  1032                 I believe that all provinces should
23     be represented on the Board and that the provinces
24     should have a strong involvement in the appointment of
25     their representatives.  I am not really too familiar


 1     with the Board and I am assuming it is not like that
 2     now, but if it is, then we will just scratch that one.
 3  1033                 In summary, let me say that I regard
 4     the CBC, both radio and television, as a vital
 5     subsystem in our great Canadian federation.  Radio with
 6     some minor adjustments, I believe, appears to be doing
 7     fine.
 8  1034                 CBC television, on the other hand,
 9     for me, is not a well subsystem of Canada's great
10     systems and I believe it needs major invasive surgery.
11  1035                 Thank you very much.
12  1036                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
13     Dr. Kennedy.  Are you a surgeon, by the way?
14  1037                 DR. KENNEDY:  No.
15  1038                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  I would like to ask
16     you.  Your first choice in the three options for the
17     CBC was to have it commercial-free with distinctive
18     Canadian programming?
19  1039                 DR. KENNEDY:  Yes.
20  1040                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  So if we, tomorrow,
21     said, no more commercials on CBC television?
22  1041                 DR. KENNEDY:  That would make me very
23     happy.
24  1042                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  That would make you
25     very happy.


 1  1043                 How would we do the second part of
 2     it, that is, making the programming distinctively
 3     Canadian, in your view?
 4  1044                 DR. KENNEDY:  I think --
 5  1045                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  How would we make
 6     this as distinctive to the other television as radio is
 7     to other radio?
 8  1046                 DR. KENNEDY:  Well, I think the first
 9     distinctive part of it for me is the commercial-free
10     part.  I think that distinguishes it and if you let
11     that go -- but that is a very important part because
12     once you get -- to me, if there is commercialism and
13     whatever in the broader sense of that, what happens is
14     that it gets commercially driven and that changes the
15     whole philosophy and the whole belief system underlying
16     the whole process.
17  1047                 So that, to me, is -- although we can
18     lay it aside and go back to what distinctively Canadian
19     -- to me, that is a very important issue because when
20     we get into commercialism, if you look at the programs
21     now on CBC television that are commercially driven,
22     that takes away that distinctiveness.  But to go back
23     to your other point, it's very difficult.
24  1048                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well no, take that
25     point.  What are the kinds of programs that you see as


 1     being commercially driven?
 2  1049                 DR. KENNEDY:  Most of the programs on
 3     CBC television, to me, are commercially driven.  Most
 4     of them are, even our beloved "Journal" and the evening
 5     newscast.  The local evening newscast are very
 6     commercially driven and I think that is a big mistake.
 7  1050                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Are there programs
 8     on that you think the CBC shouldn't be in?  You said, I
 9     could mention sports, which means you did.
10  1051                 DR. KENNEDY:  Yes, it's a tough one. 
11     It has a small "p" political overtones.  But I think we
12     tend to go overboard with sports, yes, and again, I
13     think that is because of the commercial nature of the
14     process.  I think we see it as a money-making venture. 
15     I am not sure what the percentage of Canadians that
16     watch CBC sports.  I am not sure of that.  I haven't
17     looked at that statistic but I notice a large
18     percentage who don't.
19  1052                 "Distinctively Canadian", I want to
20     go back there if you want.
21  1053                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Sure.
22  1054                 DR. KENNEDY:  I think we have to be
23     -- there is a question here again.  This is obviously
24     not a very easy thing to answer but there is a question
25     here of ratings and that sort of thing.


 1  1055                 You know, there are programs that
 2     don't get very high ratings that could be very good
 3     programs.  But they couldn't be produced because they
 4     are not commercially viable, if you like, because they
 5     don't have the ratings.  I am going back to this
 6     commercialism all the time because I really believe
 7     that this is a major factor in how we operate and how
 8     we work with the CBC.
 9  1056                 But distinctively Canadian -- there
10     are programs now, "This Hour Has 22 Minutes" for
11     example, which I think is very distinctively Canadian. 
12     There are some programs on Sunday afternoons that are
13     very distinctively Canadian and I think what we need to
14     do is to do more of this sort of thing and not to worry
15     about if from the point of view of whether it looks
16     good somewhere else.
17  1057                 Does it look good in Canada and is it
18     portraying the cultural differences that exist
19     throughout our country, from the very north to the very
20     south, to the east and the west?
21  1058                 I think if we got away -- and I come
22     back again to my pet peeve, I guess -- if we get away
23     from the commercialism, we will be able to do that with
24     greater ease and with better -- I think we have the
25     capacity and the ability to do that and I think the


 1     listening audience and the viewing audience will be
 2     there for that.  That is my feeling on it.
 3  1059                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  Thank you
 4     very much.
 5  1060                 DR. KENNEDY:  Okay.  Thank you.
 6                                                        1825
 7  1061                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Now, I think -- is
 8     it Ms Joan Clark? -- and company.
10  1062                 MS CLARK:  First of all, I would like
11     to thank you for including us in the proceedings.
12  1063                 We are representing the CBC - Ours to
13     Keep Committee, which was formed nationally in 1997 to
14     protest further cutbacks to the CBC.  It represents
15     those Canadians -- I guess you would say average
16     Canadians -- for whom the CBC is of great importance.
17  1064                 The two other committee members
18     besides myself who will be speaking are Lois Hicks and
19     she will be providing a view of the CBC from the
20     inside; and Laura Jackson will be speaking about what
21     the CBC means to Newfoundlanders.
22  1065                 I will be talking about one thing and
23     that is making the CBC more accessible to the public. 
24     As it now stands, the CBC Board has 10 members, down
25     from 15 in 1994-1995.  The Board represents only six


 1     provinces which falls far short of representing our
 2     country.
 3  1066                 In a recent letter, Perrin Beatty
 4     informed me that the CBC Board frequently meets in
 5     different parts of the country so that it can be
 6     sensitive to the needs of all Canadians.  But when the
 7     CBC Board met here two years ago, it declined to meet
 8     with the CBC - Ours to Keep Committee.  One Board
 9     member said that it is not the mandate of the Board
10     members to meet with the public.  If this is the case,
11     how can the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation be made
12     more accessible to Canadians?
13  1067                 I suggest the following:
14  1068                 one, that the CBC Board be enlarged
15     so that all provinces and territories be represented;
16  1069                 two, that the process of nominating
17     candidates to become members of the CBC Board be made
18     more transparent and open to the public;
19  1070                 three, that the most qualified
20     nominees, which is to say those who have to possess
21     experience and expertise of relevance to the Board
22     should be appointed by Parliament, not by the Cabinet,
23     which is presently the case;
24  1071                 four, that the CBC Board members
25     represent a broad political spectrum, not just the


 1     dominant political party which happens to be in power
 2     at a particular time;
 3  1072                 five, that the CBC Board find
 4     methods, and I don't mean "Cross-Country Check-Up"
 5     however effective the program is to make the CBC more
 6     accessible to public input and evaluation; this input
 7     and evaluation should play an important part of CBC
 8     management decisions about program priorities and
 9     policies;
10  1073                 six, that the President of the CBC be
11     appointed within the CBC, not by the Prime Minister of
12     Canada;
13  1074                 seven, that the CBC be kept at arm's
14     length from government and not in effect be made
15     another government department.
16  1075                 These measures would go a long way to
17     counteract the charges of CBC bias.  They would go a
18     long way to ensure that the government in power cannot
19     further emasculate the CBC because it has been
20     embarrassed and inconvenienced by investigative
21     reporting.  The day this country loses the CBC's
22     investigative reporting would be a sad, even dangerous,
23     day for democracy in Canada.
24  1076                 It has been said often and repeatedly
25     by listeners and viewers that the CBC is


 1     Toronto-centred.  This is, of course, because decisions
 2     regarding other regions of Canada are made by CBC
 3     management there.  Without representation from all
 4     provinces and territories in Canada on the CBC Board,
 5     this situation, I can't see it changing.
 6  1077                 I suggest that for a public
 7     broadcasting corporation, there is far too much power
 8     invested in a few people at the top of the CBC
 9     management pyramid.  With a CBC Board that is more
10     representational of Canadians, perhaps some of this
11     power can be diffused to the regions -- the provinces,
12     I am talking about, and territories.
13  1078                 Obviously, people living in major
14     cities such as Toronto and Vancouver do not depend on
15     the CBC the way people do in our regions, especially
16     those regions which are the most remote.  These are the
17     very people who should have more input into the CBC. 
18     They are the strongest, the most eloquent voices, the
19     voices who recognize the CBC as the most effective way
20     of knitting the people of this country together.
21  1079                 The biggest investment in this
22     country's culture is the CBC.  We must not allow it to
23     be taken apart, piece by piece, block by block, by
24     those who would denigrate and deny its value to
25     Canadians.


 2  1080                 MS HICKS:  First of all, I have a
 3     piece here written by Ed Cavanaugh.  He is with the
 4     Writers Alliance.  He is not here tonight.  So he
 5     passed it to me to read and I will do my best.  He is
 6     not a good writer.
 7  1081                 It starts off by saying:
 8  1082                 There is no local drama any more. 
 9     There is too much emphasis on news and current affairs
10     -- I think he is referring to radio throughout this,
11     although I am not sure, but it appears that way --
12     there is too much emphasis on news and current affairs. 
13     He says that "Tyranno(ph) The Theatre" has gone. 
14     "Tyranno The Theatre" was a drama production, a serial
15     that we did here some years back.
16  1083                 He goes on to say that "Tyranno The
17     Theatre" had as much as $40,000-50,000 in the late
18     eighties, $10,000 of which was for music alone for that
19     show.  He says, six years ago, there were five arts
20     programs.  Now, there are only two.
21  1084                 He talks about "The Great Eastern"
22     which is a Saturday midday show.  He says it has three
23     writers and runs August to April but there is no
24     further comment on that.
25  1085                 Everything has to be applied for to


 1     the network.  There would be more spoken words if there
 2     were more producers.  The available producers have to
 3     do too much, some of which they are not particularly
 4     qualified for.  There are no new people coming into the
 5     system.  The freelance market is gone.  The available
 6     people are pressed too hard.  There is a lack of
 7     serious reviews, such as of theatre, books and art
 8     shows.
 9  1086                 The he mentions "Week-End AM" which
10     is an early morning show here on Saturdays and Sundays
11     -- he says is now a news and current affairs show and
12     the host doubles -- he means as producer and host and
13     they have a lot of telephone stuff.
14  1087                 That is from Ed Cavanaugh of the
15     Writers Alliance.
16  1088                 This is from me as an ex-employee of
17     CBC.  I have been retired for three years.
18  1089                 I was employed by CBC for 29 years,
19     18 of those in television production and 11 as a
20     Communications Officer handling puppet and community
21     relations, promotion and advertising.  Like most every
22     employee in program production or technical production,
23     I felt privileged to have the opportunity to work in a
24     creative environment with professional and creative
25     people, both on staff and within the community.


 1  1090                 The hours were often long and
 2     stressful but made worthwhile by appreciative audiences
 3     and involved the arts community and a committed News
 4     and Public Affairs Department, and up until around
 5     1986, a decent salary and working environment.
 6  1091                 As a Communications Officer, I took
 7     many thousand calls from avid and appreciative CBC
 8     television and radio fans asking for transcripts and
 9     tapes of features, news items and entertainment pieces
10     they had enjoyed.  Shows such as "Land and Sea" and
11     "Fisheries Broadcast" were the backbone of CBC
12     Newfoundland and Labrador.  "Here and Now" had one of
13     the best news hours in the country.
14  1092                 What can replace CBC's dependable and
15     accurate national and local radio news programs such as
16     "Cross-Country Check-Up" and the information researched
17     and provided for us by "The Fifth Estate"?  How badly
18     would our culture regress without arts programs which
19     showcased our province-wide and national talent?
20  1093                 The deep cuts started in 1990 and CBC
21     has been bleeding ever since.  As employees on the
22     inside, we feared the demise of CBC from the start.  A
23     lot of us wanted to tell the public each time the cuts
24     took place that their public broadcaster was again
25     wounded.  Program quality was deteriorating and before


 1     long, the programs themselves would be gone.
 2  1094                 Head office management, however,
 3     would not hear of this, saying, we will handle the cuts
 4     quietly.  We won't let the public know we are hurting
 5     or ask for public support.  After 10 years of handling
 6     the cuts quietly, the CBC is dying.  It is obvious that
 7     the quality coverage of news and current affairs has
 8     suffered as has good arts programming.
 9  1095                 The specialized professional staff is
10     fast disappearing as well.  For the past 10 years,
11     almost every employee of the CBC, at least here in
12     Newfoundland and Labrador, has done the work of three
13     or four people.  Multi-skilling was introduced so that
14     a journalist, technician or producer could be called
15     upon to wear many hats a day such as researcher, camera
16     person, editor, journalist, reporter, on air host.  All
17     this has diluted the quality of CBC's product which is
18     good quality programs.
19  1096                 It seems that the present Liberal
20     government and the PC government before that dislikes
21     CBC.  Is this because governments don't want to stand
22     up to scrutiny and don't want to be exposed by CBC?  Do
23     they hope that getting rid of CBC will protect them
24     from criticism?
25  1097                 On one hand, the federal government


 1     demands more or all Canadian content.  On the other
 2     hand, it orders more cuts and talks about
 3     privatization.  If CBC is destroyed or privatized, what
 4     will happen to more Canadian content?  We will be left
 5     with no unbiased international news, no BBC reports, no
 6     country-wide exchange and interaction.
 7  1098                 Why are 1,800 CBC technicians on
 8     strike now and why are 3,300 journalists and production
 9     people prepared to join them?  Because they are
10     fighting for all of the above.  They believe that the
11     work they do at CBC is necessary to keep our country
12     together.  Yet, they are overworked and underpaid.
13  1099                 CBC doesn't need five more networks
14     or channels.  It needs the restoration of respect in
15     the form of funding to bring back quality programs and
16     remain a dependable voice for news and current affairs
17     and the arts.
18  1100                 Thank you.
19  1101                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you -- is it
20     Ms Hicks?
21  1102                 MS HICKS:  Yes.
22  1103                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thanks.
23  1104                 Ms Jackson.
25  1105                 MS JACKSON:  In the last really big


 1     round of cuts, a number of people wanted to speak out
 2     who weren't able to necessarily get to St. John's or to
 3     meet Perrin Beatty or to come to a CRTC hearing.  So I
 4     collected most of these quotes in the course of dozens
 5     of interviews, most of them then, in 1997, and some
 6     have been collected since then.
 7  1106                 The ones collected two years ago seem
 8     just as relevant today.  I noticed when I had finished
 9     that there were two common themes among people's
10     reasons for depending on the CBC, especially CBC radio. 
11     One was intellectual stimulation and continuing
12     education and the other was a sense of country.  CBC
13     appears to be crucial to our feelings of national unity
14     and these two themes are often interwoven.
15  1107                 Jacqueline Saunders-Gambeau(ph),
16     School Board member and volunteer:
17                            "You can educate yourself by
18                            listening to CBC radio.  I do. 
19                            It educates me to what is
20                            happening across the country." 
21                            (As read)
22  1108                 Anne Hart(ph), Writer and retired
23     head of Memorial University's Centre for Newfoundland
24     Studies:
25                            "Without the CBC, I feel I


 1                            wouldn't have a country."  (As
 2                            read)
 3  1109                 Eugene Conway, Mayor of Conception
 4     Harbour:
 5                            "I listen to CBC all the time. 
 6                            It is our connection with
 7                            reality.  The continuity is
 8                            there.  If we lose that, we lose
 9                            our connection with the rest of
10                            the province and the rest of
11                            Canada."  (As read)
12  1110                 Bernard Martin, Petty Harbour,
13     Fisherman:
14                            "Is it any wonder that our
15                            country is ripping apart at the
16                            seams when our very own
17                            governments are doing their
18                            level best to destroy the
19                            institutions and symbols such as
20                            the CBC that have united us as a
21                            country?"  (As read)
22  1111                 Betty Hall, Caregiver, Painter:
23                            "CBC radio is my connection to
24                            the outside world.  As a painter
25                            too, I need the stimulation it


 1                            gives me.  Without CBC, I would
 2                            be lost.  It makes me feel I am
 3                            part of one country."  (As read)
 4  1112                 Allan Nudio(ph), Businessperson,
 5     Northern Bay:
 6                            "I live off the beaten track and
 7                            I depend on the CBC to keep me
 8                            in touch."  (As read)
 9  1113                 Bernice Morgan, Novelist:
10                            "When my children were little,
11                            CBC radio kept me sane.  It kept
12                            me educated, connected.  It is
13                            the common thread for our
14                            country."  (As read)
15  1114                 Jerome Kenny, Fermeuse Postmaster:
16                            "I wake to the CBC at 6:00. 
17                            Most of the day, it is on."  (As
18                            read)
19  1115                 Donna Jeffreys, Coordinator for
20     Immigrant Services in St. John's:
21                            "I have moved around a lot. 
22                            Moving across the country, one
23                            thing goes with you, the CBC. 
24                            For newcomers to Canada, it is
25                            the voice they know."  (As read)


 1  1116                 Greg Mitchell, Gillams, Sawmiller and
 2     Environmentalist:
 3                            "It is the only thing that
 4                            connects rural Newfoundland with
 5                            itself and the rest of the
 6                            country."  (As read)
 7  1117                 Laurie March, Corner Brook, former
 8     Coordinator of Newfoundland and Labrador Environment
 9     Network:
10                            "It is a paper-free lifeline to
11                            critical information and
12                            viewpoints across the country." 
13                            (As read)
14  1118                 Sandy Newton, Writer-Editor, Port
15     Kirwan and St. John's:
16                            "Without the CBC, all we would
17                            get is narrow local views.  The
18                            CBC delivers a unique product
19                            with the best standards in the
20                            world.  The CBC keeps you
21                            challenged, keeps you listening. 
22                            It's a lot of voices." (As read)
23  1119                 Jessica Webb, St. John's, Teacher:
24                            "When I want to think, when I
25                            want to be challenged on my


 1                            views, I tune into the CBC." 
 2                            (As read)
 3  1120                 Peter Armitage, Memorial University,
 4     Anthropologist:
 5                            "We can't count on politicians
 6                            standing up for the CBC because
 7                            it is a voice for people to
 8                            criticize them and give them
 9                            feedback."  (As read)
10  1121                 Laura Park, Brigus South, Botanist:
11                            "I listen to CBC radio a lot. 
12                            What other choices do you have? 
13                            If you want to listen to
14                            something intelligent, you don't
15                            have any other choice."  (As
16                            read)
17  1122                 Grace Botte(ph), St. John's, Poet and
18     Playwright:
19                            "CBC radio has become my
20                            lifeline now that I can no
21                            longer see.  I depend on CBC for
22                            everything:  for news, book
23                            reviews, commentaries,
24                            discussion, music, everything
25                            that keeps me in touch with the


 1                            world."  (As read)
 2  1123                 Clyde Rose, St. Phillip's, Publisher:
 3                            "I would not live in this
 4                            country without the CBC.  As a
 5                            medium for promoting our arts,
 6                            it has no competition."  (As
 7                            read)
 8  1124                 Julie Britain, Academic, Writer and
 9     Immigrant:
10                            "I moved to Canada to make it
11                            home.  I knew very little about
12                            the country when I arrived and
13                            the single most important factor
14                            in my finding out about it has
15                            been, and remains, CBC radio.  I
16                            listen to find out about
17                            culture, politics and history. 
18                            I listen just to get a feel for
19                            what makes this country tick." 
20                            (As read)
21  1125                 Ceneca Gow(ph), Trinity, Bed and
22     Breakfast Operator:
23                            "The CBC is like the moon.  It
24                            doesn't matter from where you
25                            look at it, it looks the same. 


 1                            All of us listen to the CBC.  It
 2                            is what we have in common."  (As
 3                            read)
 4  1126                 Sean French, Springdale, Grad
 5     Student:
 6                            "It is the only alternative to
 7                            music stations.  There is no
 8                            other alternative."  (As read)
 9  1127                 Margaret Baron, St. John's:
10                            "I have lived all over Canada,
11                            as far away as Tuktoyaktuk.  The
12                            CBC was the only thing that kept
13                            me connected."  (As read)
14  1128                 Denis Priddle(ph), St. John's:
15                            "The CBC gives opportunities to
16                            artists, filmmakers and
17                            musicians that they couldn't get
18                            anywhere else."  (As read)
19  1129                 Helen Fogwell-Porter(ph), St. John's,
20     Writer:
21                            "I took part once in a contest
22                            where you had to complete the
23                            phrase 'As Canadian As...' and
24                            my answer was 'As Canadian As
25                            the CBC'.  It is something we


 1                            have to have.  We won't be
 2                            Canadians without the CBC.  I
 3                            was born a Newfoundlander.  The
 4                            CBC made me a Canadian."  (As
 5                            read)
 6  1130                 James Green, Grand Falls:
 7                            "CBC radio is the thinking
 8                            person's radio."  (As read)
 9  1131                 Art Bags(ph), President of the
10     Newfoundland and Labrador Teachers Association:
11                            "In Newfoundland and Labrador,
12                            the CBC is a very necessary
13                            forum for public discussion on
14                            subjects such as education." 
15                            (As read)
16  1132                 Vicky Walsh, Burnt Cove, Homemaker
17     and Educator:
18                            "I am a mother desperate for
19                            adult intellectual
20                            entertainment.  I love CBC
21                            radio."  (As read)
22  1133                 And finally, from Doris Saunders in
23     Happy Valley, Labrador, Editor of the Historical
24     Journal, "Them Days":
25                            "The CBC is something to be


 1                            proud of.  The CBC is the thread
 2                            that holds this country
 3                            together.  No matter how
 4                            different, how diverse we are
 5                            across this big country, it is
 6                            the one thing that unites us. 
 7                            It is just terrible the way
 8                            things are going.  If they take
 9                            away the CBC, that will be the
10                            beginning of the end for Canada. 
11                            We will just drift apart like a
12                            bunch of little ice pans".  (As
13                            read)
14  1134                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
15     much, Ms Jackson.  I was beginning to wonder if you had
16     surveyed the whole Island.  We would be here for a
17     while.
18  1135                 MS JACKSON:  ...
19     --- Off microphone / Sans microphone
20  1136                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  That's okay.  You
21     can mail those.
22  1137                 Now, we had two other people on the
23     list who had indicated they would be here about 8:30,
24     Mr. and Mrs. John and Sylvia Hopkins.  Are they here?
25  1138                 Is there anybody else here who wanted


 1     to make a presentation?
 2  1139                 No.  Okay.
 3  1140                 Well perhaps, as we did this
 4     afternoon, I will provide an opportunity for the folks
 5     at the CBC to respond to comments that they have heard
 6     this evening.
 7                                                        2040
 8  1141                 MR. McGRATH:  Could I ask the CRTC
 9     just one question?  What it is is that when I was
10     looking at federal government policy with respect to
11     light station destaffing, I requested, through the
12     Access to Information Act, to find out why the federal
13     government had hired such a high-profile public
14     relations firm as Hill and Knowlton(ph) to manage the
15     consultation sessions with respect to light station
16     destaffing.
17  1142                 The document that I got back I found
18     quite shocking.  What it said was that the purpose of
19     consultation was to:
20                            "...look for individual
21                            opponents to government policy
22                            and then raise methods of
23                            dealing with those opponents as
24                            part of the policy directive to
25                            implement light station


 1                            destaffing." (As read)
 2  1143                 My concern right now is that this
 3     Commission has been set up to hear public input before
 4     the desk captains of the Rideau Canal have laid their
 5     cards on the table with respect to what their plans are
 6     for our public broadcaster, CBC.
 7  1144                 I dutifully respect that the CRTC
 8     would hold similar consultation sessions here in
 9     Newfoundland after these policies and this plan has
10     been put out in the public domain so that we will be
11     given an opportunity to review exactly what the federal
12     government has in plan for a public broadcaster and so
13     that we can then provide similar valid comments back to
14     you where we disagree with federal government policy.
15  1145                 Thank you.
16  1146                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  I am not sure of
17     the distinction you are drawing between federal
18     government policy and the CBC's own plans for its
19     future, as contained in its licence renewal
20     applications, but as I indicated earlier this evening,
21     I think it was to Mr. Brookes who made the comment
22     about the fact that we are holding these consultations
23     before the licence renewal applications have been made
24     public.
25  1147                 Part of that was simply the timing of


 1     being able to schedule this and scheduling with the CBC
 2     hearing itself in May and trying to make sure that we
 3     could schedule this and do this tour across the
 4     country.  I am not sure of the exact date that the
 5     licence renewal applications will be made public.
 6  1148                 We will not be making another round
 7     though between now and then.  I think I indicated the
 8     hearing begins in late May, May 25th, but once the
 9     renewal applications are made public, anyone of the
10     public is certainly welcome to review those and provide
11     comments to the Commission in writing or to appear at
12     the hearing in Ottawa.
13  1149                 With our budget and resources, we
14     won't have an opportunity to have another round of the
15     country before that hearing in Hull, but certainly
16     anyone is welcome to review that and make their
17     comments known in writing.
18  1150                 MR. McGRATH:  Well, just one closing
19     comment then.  I know that the Senate Standing
20     Committees often provide funding for interest groups to
21     go to Ottawa and provide public feedback on critical
22     government issues.
23  1151                 Is it part of the CRTC's funding
24     regimen to provide funding to any individual group that
25     might be here that wants to go to Ottawa and give a


 1     proper discussion to the hearings in this regard?  I
 2     know that these particular hearings will become part of
 3     the public domain and I, as a concerned citizen, am
 4     extremely disappointed that after the fact we will only
 5     be given an opportunity to send in paper to the federal
 6     government.  I find, from past experience, that paper
 7     that gets sent to the federal government seems to
 8     disappear into the X-files.
 9  1152                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, we don't have
10     an X-file and either the Commissioners and/or the staff
11     carefully review all of the written submissions that we
12     get.  I have been at the Commission for eight and a
13     half years now, and as I have told people, the
14     submissions that we get -- I read everything that
15     crosses my desk, whether it is an oral submission or a
16     written submission.  They are all taken into account in
17     all of the hearings.
18  1153                 Ms Goodridge who appeared -- is she
19     still there? -- I think, can verify that, from her time
20     when she was a Commissioner representing Newfoundland
21     at the Commission.
22  1154                 But to your earlier point about
23     providing costs, interestingly enough, we operate under
24     two pieces of legislation at the CRTC:  We have the
25     Telecommunications Act, under which we regulate the


 1     telephone companies, and we have the Broadcasting Act,
 2     under which we regulate television, radio stations and
 3     cable.
 4  1155                 The Telecommunications Act provides
 5     for cost awards for intervenors.  The Broadcasting Act
 6     does not.  That issue has been raised by a number of
 7     public interest groups and we have taken a look at that
 8     issue and are pursuing that issue within the government
 9     to see what could be done to provide for some sort of
10     public funding.  But as of now, the legislation does
11     not provide for that and we don't have the financial
12     resources to pay those sorts of cost awards.
13  1156                 What happens under the
14     Telecommunications Act is you provide a cost award for
15     a public intervenor and then the cost award is charged
16     back against the regulated companies.  It actually
17     doesn't come out of our budget.  We don't have a
18     provision under the Broadcasting Act to do that.
19  1157                 MR. McGRATH:  Thank you very much,
20     sir.
21                                                        2050
22  1158                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  Ms Humber.
24  1159                 MS HUMBER:  Thank you, Commissioner
25     Colville.


 1  1160                 On behalf of the CBC, I am here as
 2     the Regional Director of Radio for Newfoundland and
 3     Labrador, and on behalf of myself and Michael Harris
 4     who is here representing network television, Donna
 5     Wicks and Lloyd Noël(ph) representing regional
 6     television in Newfoundland and Labrador, and Antea
 7     Springman(ph) who is with the Communications Department
 8     here locally, I would like to thank the CRTC for
 9     allowing us to be part of the public consultation
10     process.
11  1161                 We welcome this opportunity to hear
12     directly from our listeners and our viewers about our
13     programming and our service.  I am not sure you are
14     aware but CBC's role here tonight is to listen and you
15     have given us a lot to listen to and to think about.
16  1162                 So again, thank you to the listeners
17     and viewers who have taken the time to be here this
18     evening on what I am told is a pretty miserable evening
19     out there and taking the time to prepare such
20     thoughtful, articulate and passionate presentations.
21  1163                 It is vitally important to the CBC
22     that we hear what our audience thinks of us. 
23     Sometimes, that is good and sometimes that is bad but
24     it is still important that you tell us what you think
25     and that we take those things into account when we are


 1     doing our planning.
 2  1164                 We will be following up with each of
 3     the presenters individually over the next few weeks. 
 4     We hope to address specific issues if you have them in
 5     those follow-up conversations and we hope also to be
 6     able to answer any questions that you may have about
 7     our services, both in radio and in television.
 8  1165                 Again, thank you particularly as
 9     someone who has spent all of my life in regional
10     broadcasting, either here or at the other end of the
11     country in Vancouver most recently.  It is very
12     gratifying to hear support for regional programming and
13     regional production.
14  1166                 The fact that so many people both
15     this afternoon and this evening have taken the time to
16     come here and to share their views on the CBC shows us
17     that you are not apathetic and you are not indifferent
18     and we would rather that than total praise, I guess, in
19     some ways.
20  1167                 Radio here tonight has been described
21     as an umbilical cord to sanity for one person.  This
22     afternoon, for another, it was described as a close
23     friend in intensive care and by another presenter it
24     was described as a scam.  So all of those things are
25     probably valid criticisms and valid thoughts on the CBC


 1     and as we plan into the future, we will take them all
 2     into account.
 3  1168                 Again, thanks for making your
 4     presentations and being so passionate about what we are
 5     also very passionate about.
 6  1169                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 7     much.
 8  1170                 Let me take this opportunity to thank
 9     all those who have presented here today.  We are
10     nearing the end of the presentations on this round of
11     consultations.  Well, there is one going on right now
12     in Vancouver and I think we have one more in Edmonton
13     tomorrow.
14  1171                 We have heard a lot of talk about the
15     CBC, most of it positive.  I have heard comments here
16     today about regional whines, and several people
17     mentioned that.  I certainly don't consider it whining
18     at all.  Unless people raise issues and bring their
19     concerns to the forefront regarding the CBC, either
20     directly to the CBC or to us, then those issues don't
21     get addressed and I certainly don't consider it whining
22     at all.
23  1172                 Somebody made reference to being poor
24     cousins, that being Newfoundlanders, being poor cousins
25     to the rest of Canada.  I guess I have been on the CRTC


 1     now for eight years and prior to that I worked for the
 2     Nova Scotia Government.  I was involved in getting the
 3     Nova Scotia Film Development Corporation started.
 4  1173                 But through my work there, I was
 5     involved in many federal-provincial committees and
 6     meetings and certainly it has been my experience that
 7     Newfoundlanders don't have to apologize about being
 8     poor cousins or whiners at all.
 9  1174                 I think Newfoundlanders, in my
10     experience, have brought very thoughtful, constructive
11     suggestions to any of the forums that I have been
12     involved in at the interprovincial or
13     federal-provincial level or whether it has been CRTC
14     hearings.  I think the comments that we received have
15     been extremely helpful.
16  1175                 I must say that the kinds of views
17     that we have been hearing about the CBC for the last
18     few days in the hearings that I have been involved in
19     have certainly helped shape my own views about a lot of
20     these issues.  So to that extent, I think these
21     hearings have been extremely helpful for us to help us
22     better understand what the views and concerns of
23     Canadians are about the CBC and what it should be like.
24  1176                 I know from the hearing that we had
25     in Sydney, Nova Scotia, a week ago that Fred Mattocks,


 1     who is perhaps more involved, I guess, with television
 2     than radio, was a bit concerned that radio was going to
 3     capture all of the attention and I guess it is probably
 4     fair to say that it has had a lot of attention,
 5     probably the most attention, certainly in the hearings
 6     that I have been involved in.
 7  1177                 I think it is probably fair to say,
 8     from what I have heard from my colleagues at some of
 9     the other hearings that radio has been a prime concern,
10     which is not to say that people are not concerned about
11     television.  But I guess if there has been -- somebody
12     referred recently through a common thread.  There
13     certainly has been a common thread to all of these
14     hearings about strong support for the CBC, most
15     particularly about radio.
16  1178                 I guess if I could bring my own
17     comment onto this just in terms of what I have heard,
18     it seems, I think, as Dr. Kennedy was suggesting, that
19     radio seems to be more distinctive than television and
20     to the extent people have been commenting about
21     television, I think people are saying we want to see it
22     become perhaps a little more distinctive than it is.
23  1179                 I just want to say that I think to
24     some extent, to a considerable extent, we are sort of
25     overwhelmed by the number of people who are turning


 1     out.  We were discussing over dinner the fact that -- I
 2     think we have 157 people registered for Vancouver but
 3     we had 60 people turn out in Charlottetown.  If you
 4     consider the relative populations of those two cities,
 5     that is a huge turnout for a place like Charlottetown
 6     in support of the CBC and I think the turnout here has
 7     been quite tremendous as well, certainly more so than
 8     we would normally get for any other issue that is
 9     becoming before us.
10  1180                 So it certainly speaks volumes for
11     the support that the CBC has and the concern that the
12     Canadian public has for what is happening to the CBC. 
13     I don't think we have heard anybody who wants to see it
14     disappear.  People want to see it become stronger, more
15     relevant, more regionally and provincially relevant to
16     them.
17  1181                 So with that, I will close this
18     particular consultation, but the issue is still on the
19     table, as Mr. McGrath noted.  The licence renewal
20     applications will become public documents in time and
21     we would look forward to comments from any or all of
22     you on the renewal applications themselves.  If you are
23     unable to be at the hearing in Ottawa, we would look
24     forward to your written comments on those issues as
25     well.


 1  1182                 So with that, I will thank you all
 2     again for attending.  I thank the TV crews and the
 3     sound crews and the translators and the transcript
 4     people for their assistance in our proceeding and will
 5     declare this consultation ended.  Thank you very much.
 6     --- Whereupon the hearing concluded at 2052 /
 7         L'audience se termine à 2052

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