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                       SUBJECT / SUJET:

                       PUBLIC HEARING ON
                     AUDIENCE PUBLIQUE SUR

HELD AT:                                TENUE À:

CRTC Regional Office                    Bureau régional du CRTC 
275 Portage Avenue                      275, avenue Portage
Winnipeg, Manitoba                      Winnipeg (Manitoba)

February 3, 1999                        Le 3 février 1999

tel: 613-521-0703         StenoTran         fax: 613-521-7668


In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages
Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be
bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members
and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded
verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in
either of the official languages, depending on the language
spoken by the participant at the public hearing.


Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues
officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront
bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des
membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience
publique ainsi que la table des matières.

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu
textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée
et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues
officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le
participant à l'audience publique.

tel: 613-521-0703         StenoTran         fax: 613-521-7668

                 Canadian Radio-television and
                 Telecommunications Commission

              Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des
                télécommunications canadiennes

                  Transcript / Transcription

              Public Hearing / Audience publique

            Third Language and Ethnic Programming /
       Programmation multilingue et à caractère ethnique


Barbara Cram                            Chairperson / Présidente
Jean-Marc Demers                        Commissioner / Conseiller


Gary Krushen                            Secretary / Secrétaire
Geoff Batstone                          Legal Counsel/Conseiller

HELD AT:                                TENUE À:

CRTC Regional Office                    Bureau régional du CRTC 
275 Portage Avenue                      275, avenue Portage
Winnipeg, Manitoba                      Winnipeg (Manitoba)

February 3, 1999                        Le 3 février 1999

tel: 613-521-0703         StenoTran         fax: 613-521-7668



Presentation by / Présentation par:

CKJS Radio                                                   4

German Society of Manitoba                                  12

Winnipeg Chinese Cultural Centre                            20

Italian Cultural Centre                                     25

Ukrainian Canadian Congress                                 31

tel: 613-521-0703         StenoTran         fax: 613-521-7668


 1                    Winnipeg, Manitoba / Winnipeg (Manitoba)
 2     --- Upon commencing on Wednesday, February 3, 1999
 3         at 1606 / L'audience débute le mercredi
 4         3 février 1999, à 1606
 5  1                    THE CHAIRPERSON:  Hello, everyone and
 6     welcome to the public consultations that we are holding
 7     on ethnic broadcasting.
 8  2                    I am Barbara Cram.  To my right is
 9     Mr. Jean-Marc Demers.  We are both Commissioners on the
10     CRTC.  I am the Regional Commissioner for
11     Manitoba-Saskatchewan, and Mr. Demers is a National
12     Commissioner.
13  3                    As of Monday, yesterday and today,
14     all of us on the CRTC have been listening to comments
15     and views presented by people in consultations, here 
16     in Winnipeg, Halifax, Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver.
17  4                    We will also be receiving written
18     comments and documents by e-mail.  All submissions will
19     form part of the public record on ethnic broadcasting. 
20     If you wish to file any written submissions, they must
21     be filed with us by the 4th of March of this year.
22  5                    Let me tell you where we are trying
23     to go with these consultations.  A couple of years ago,
24     the CRTC started broad framework hearings to decide the
25     framework of broadcasting for the future -- for the 


 1     forceable future anyway -- and a part of that includes,
 2     of course, television and radio and, in that, are the
 3     policies reflecting Canada's cultural and linguistic
 4     diversity.
 5  6                    In 1985, the first policy was issued
 6     and now we are looking at that again, to see if it is
 7     relevant for today and for the future.
 8  7                    One of the most important goals of
 9     the policy is to ensure that the broadcasting system
10     serves the needs and interests of all Canadians by
11     reflecting their diversity in an effective manner.
12  8                    So, we are here to ask you for your
13     comments on the policy itself, and your comments as to
14     how it should be changed to best meet the needs of the
15     future.
16  9                    As you know, we are few here, and
17     there is good in that, in that what I would like to do
18     structurally today, is to hear each of your
19     presentations, but after that I would like to prevail
20     upon you to all sit around the table, and see if we can
21     start talking about other issues surrounding the policy
22     and if we can hear your comments on them, and have a
23     discussion -- a true discussion going -- rather than a
24     presentation to us without any sort of dialogue between
25     all of us on the issues involved.


 1  10                   So, if you can stay until 6, or even
 2     after, I would love to her your comments -- even if you
 3     are not, in fact, a participant, I would like hear your
 4     comments and everybody else's.
 5  11                   On housekeeping, we have by way of
 6     staff assisting us, Mr. Geoff Batstone, he is the legal
 7     advisor, and Gary Krushen, who is the Director of our
 8     Winnipeg General Office.  He will be our Secretary.  If
 9     you have any questions after today, please call upon
10     Mr. Krushen should you wish any advice or if you have
11     any questions that you would like to ask.
12  12                   So, we will start with the
13     presentations and then we will, hopefully, move into a 
14     roundtable discussion after that.
15  13                   Sadly, we have to inject a little
16     legality in here.  Everything will be transcribed,
17     everything that is said here will be used against you,
18     and it is simply that we have to have a public record
19     that will form the basis for our decisions and so we
20     have the staff here available to transcribe everything
21     that is being said.
22  14                   I apologize in advance if I start
23     coughing because I have a cold.
24  15                   Mr. Secretary?
25  16                   MR. KRUSHEN:  Thank you, Madam


 1     Chairman.  One minor change to our agenda this
 2     afternoon -- our first presenter is going to be a
 3     little bit late arriving, so we will move to the second
 4     scheduled presenter.
 5  17                   I would like now to call Mr. Tony
 6     Carta of CKJS Radio.
 8  18                   MR. TONY CARTA:  Members of the
 9     Commission, ladies and gentlemen.  My name is Tony
10     Carta.  I am President of CKJS Radio in Winnipeg.
11  19                   CKJS has been operating in this city
12     since 1975.  It is, by the size of its market, one of
13     the smallest ethnic radio stations in Canada.  Unlike
14     other major centres, Winnipeg ethnic programs have
15     never been economically viable enough to sustain 100
16     per cent ethnic programming on CKJS.  Winnipeg's ethnic
17     population, although diverse and very vibrant, is made
18     up of small fragmented language groups.
19  20                   The ethnic population growth in this
20     city is moderate when compared to other Canadian
21     cities.  All ethnic programs, including our largest,
22     are more or less subsidized by specialty
23     programming --in this case religious programming.  CKJS
24     programming is a mix of 60 per cent ethnic, and the
25     remaining 40 per cent, religious.


 1  21                   Why, as an ethnic radio station, do
 2     we broadcast such large a segment of religious
 3     programming?  We feel a void left from mainstream
 4     stations many years ago.  Conventional radio stations
 5     were not any more interested in religious broadcasts
 6     because they had a fear it would negatively affect
 7     their station's format and, most of all, alienate their
 8     audiences.
 9  22                   For the last 24 years, CKJS is able
10     to exist within this duality -- ethnic and Christian. 
11     For economic reasons, the two formats would not be
12     strong enough to go on individually, as one ethnic
13     radio station and as one separate religious station. 
14     Together, they compliment each other.
15  23                   In addition to daily religious
16     broadcasts, we provide a supplementary service with
17     three hours daily of contemporary Christian music.  To
18     put it in simple words, the loss of our religious
19     programming -- let's say to an eventual licensing of
20     religious stations -- would jeopardize or put an end to
21     the existence of all ethnic programs as they are now.
22  24                   I have always believed that markets
23     dictate a radio station's programming, be it ethnic or
24     conventional.  Winnipeg's market is not different,
25     nonetheless, we will still carry, on a public service


 1     basis, quite a few programs that, otherwise, would not
 2     be able to exist.
 3  25                   While Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver
 4     can boast single ethnic groups each comprising between
 5     100 and 400,000 people, the 40,000 Filipinos living in
 6     our city represent the largest ethnic group to which we
 7     can provide a service -- a small market indeed.
 8  26                   Presently, we provide to the Filipino
 9     community four hours of daily programming.  Ukrainians
10     and Germans -- although very active in the cultural and
11     economic lives of our city -- have integrated rather
12     well into the mainstream society.  To those who have
13     kept an interest in their language and country of
14     origin, CKJS still provides an excellent service with
15     one hour daily in German and in Ukrainian.  These two
16     programs are not any more economically viable, and they
17     are heavily cross-subsidised.
18  27                   Having said that, what can we do to
19     improve ethnic broadcasting in Canada?  The rules and
20     regulations in place are not to be discarded -- they
21     have worked rather well.  A few adjustments, however,
22     might be needed to make ethnic broadcasting much more
23     market-oriented.
24  28                   I believe most of Canada's ethnic
25     broadcasters will be forwarding a detailed written


 1     submission to the Commission.
 2  29                   Ethnic-Canadian music's Canadian
 3     content: It is a very well-known fact that the present
 4     seven per cent of ethnic-Canadian content is rather
 5     difficult to achieve.  We would be fooling ourselves by
 6     believing in the existence of an ethnic music recording
 7     industry in Canada.  With the exception of some
 8     Ukrainian recordings being produced in Western Canada,
 9     and in particular, here in Winnipeg and Edmonton, very
10     few have produced material good enough to be noticed.
11  30                   In Winnipeg, we are able to achieve
12     our Canadian content mostly with Ukrainian-Canadian  
13     albums, with some old Italian albums -- very few --
14     and some local Filipino artists.
15  31                   CKJS runs an annual talent search
16     promotion within the Filipino community, and the
17     brightest outcome from one of these promotions was Ms
18     Ma-Nane Dionisio who, after winning the radio station
19     contest, went to play the leading role in the Toronto
20     mega production of Miss Saigon.  By now ethnic
21     broadcasters have learned to accept the fact that
22     ethnic artists -- once they reach some notoriety within
23     their own community -- try their fortunes in the
24     mainstream music world, bringing to an halt their
25     ethnic music careers.


 1  32                   The suggestion by the Commission to
 2     raise the Canadian content from seven to twelve per
 3     cent is unrealistic.  Ethnic-Canadian content on music
 4     should be eliminated altogether, and replaced, perhaps,
 5     with Canadian ethnic programming content.
 6  33                   Good Canadian programming is much
 7     more needed and valuable to ethnic audiences than any
 8     other bad recording we are compelled to play over and
 9     over just because it is ethnic.
10  34                   Ethnic programming of types A, B, C,
11     D: We need to reevaluate the present ethnic programming
12     definitions.  Generally, ethnic stations across the
13     country are broadcasting programs of type A.  Programs
14     of type B are almost non-existent with the exception of
15     the Caribbean market; same for the programming of types 
16     C and D.  We must redefine ethnic programming with a
17     much broader terminology.  All ethnic programs, no
18     matter the language used to reach that specific group, 
19     should be grouped under type A.
20  35                   I would go as far as to allow ethnic
21     stations in small markets such as Winnipeg, the
22     flexibility to include ethnic programming of type E as
23     part of a 60 per cent ethnic programming requirement.
24  36                   The broadcast of programming of type
25     E would be directed to ethnic groups as well as to


 1     mainstream audiences -- that is facilitating
 2     cross-cultural education.  Impose a requirement on the
 3     40 per cent that currently does not need to contain
 4     ethnic programming.
 5  37                   Regarding the Commission imposing
 6     programming requirements on the remaining 40 per cent,
 7     we are absolutely contrary to the idea, and your
 8     restrictions on the programming choice for the
 9     remaining 40 per cent would place the broadcaster in a
10     straightjacket.  It will only punish those few small
11     market stations, like us, that cannot afford to program
12     100 per cent in ethnic because of the size of the local
13     language groups.
14  38                   Single language stations: The
15     Commission should not license the single language 
16     stations.  Single language stations would put an end to
17     programs directed to small ethnic programs groups.
18  39                   Licensing one station will start a
19     proliferation of applications from every group across
20     the country.  Once an exception is made for one group,
21     denying the license to others may stir up political
22     interference and cause discrimination.
23  40                   The Commission, however, must take a
24     serious look into the fact that, in one hand, it is
25     denying the single-language radio station and, on the


 1     other, is allowing one-language SEMOs, plus Canadian
 2     Satellite Service and cable companies to carry one
 3     language, foreign language, foreign television signals.
 4  41                   The Commission is asking, how can
 5     small groups attract sufficient advertising or
 6     financial support?  There is no easy answer.  Without a
 7     market, it is simply a fruitless exercise.  As a mean  
 8     to encourage ethnic broadcasters to produce and air
 9     programs directed to small-language groups, the
10     Commission could redirect the current CTD annual
11     contributions -- in our case $8,000 -- to subsidize the
12     production and broadcast of more of these programs.  In 
13     including this commitment as a condition of license,
14     ethnic broadcasters would strengthen their role as
15     supporters and promoters of Canadian diversity.
16  42                   What is the importance of
17     third-language programming relative to the importance
18     of ethnic programming in French or English?  People of
19     different ethnic backgrounds come, and still come, to
20     this country to seek new opportunities -- being
21     economical or social.  They all carry a strong
22     attachment to their homeland.  For many, it will be a
23     life-long one, for others a short transitional one on
24     the way to full integration into mainstream society.
25  43                   In retaining an interest of their


 1     country of origin, they also retain the need and the
 2     desire to stay in touch with the language, the music,
 3     and culture of the country they have left.
 4  44                   Ethnic programming provides a much
 5     needed service to those that have difficulty in
 6     acclimatizing to their new country, to those that felt
 7     uprooted and out of place in a new environment.
 8  45                   More choice-oriented programming is
 9     provided to those who might have already integrated,
10     but still have the desire to continue to cultivate
11     their cultural and linguistic interests.
12  46                   Third-language programming provides
13     them with a unique service that cannot be rendered in
14     English or French.  The use of a third-language
15     component is the essence and the soul of the ethnic
16     programming.
17  47                   We will be presenting the Commission
18     with a more detailed written submission prior to the
19     March 4th deadline.  In the meantime, I would be very
20     pleased to answer any question you may have.
21  48                   Thanks a lot.
22  49                   THE CHAIRPERSON:  I think what we
23     might do is have all of the questions at the end so we
24     can have a roundtable on it.
25  50                   Mr. Secretary?


 1  51                   MR. KRUSHEN:  Thank you, Madam Chair. 
 2     Now I would like to call Mr. Karl Preiss of the German
 3     Society of Manitoba.
 5  52                   MR. PREISS:  Sorry I am late, but I
 6     am a high school teacher and I just couldn't be here on
 7     time.
 8  53                   Our brief is going to be not too
 9     lengthy.  We do want to inform the CRTC of the problems
10     which the German Society is having, here in Manitoba,
11     getting a little bit of German programming relative
12     through the radio and also, of course, the T.V.
13  54                   The first point I would like to make,
14     is that the German-Canadian community is the second
15     largest ethnic group in Manitoba, comprising of 
16     approximately 18 per cent of the population of the
17     province.
18  55                   The German Society of Winnipeg, 
19     which was founded in 1892 -- in other words we are over
20     100 years old -- has taken a number of initiatives in
21     the last few years to obtain the German television
22     station, the Deutsch Welle, which has been approved, by
23     the way, by the CRTC, and is provided to the cable
24     companies free of charge, as we understand.
25  56                   The Society is also attempting to


 1     address a number of concerns of our members.  Petitions
 2     with thousands of signatures have been presented to the
 3     two cable companies in Manitoba -- the two major ones,
 4     of course, being VIDEON and Shaw -- requesting the
 5     German television station.  Letters requesting this
 6     service have repeatedly been sent to VIDEON Cable and
 7     Shaw Cable.  The results, so far, have been
 8     unsuccessful.
 9  57                   The cable companies have given
10     various excuses why the service is not being offered --
11     from not having enough channels because they are going
12     over to fiber optics, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. 
13     Indeed, one postponement after another.
14  58                   The Society is, therefore, taking an
15     other approach -- and we are sort of forced into this. 
16     We have written almost every politician on the 
17     provincial and the federal levels, explaining our
18     problem and, in fact, asking for their support in our
19     struggle with the cable companies.
20  59                   We have received a positive response
21     from most these politicians, and in some instances --
22     many instances -- they went even so far as to write
23     letters to the cable companies on our behalf.  So, we
24     are quite pleased about that.
25  60                   We are pleased there is another


 1     aspect to this -- supposing we do get the Deutsch
 2     Welle -- but just how much are we going to be able to
 3     pay for it?  We have noticed that for other ethnic
 4     groups, these channels are incorporated in packages
 5     which, in fact, are very palatable, and they are very
 6     cost-effective.
 7  61                   We have noted that on digital T.V.,
 8     Bell Express Value is finally offering a so-called
 9     German special which includes the Deutsch Welle,
10     however why the high cost?  Since, in fact, it is
11     offered to them for no money at all, why does a 
12     subscriber have to pay $14.95 per month -- which is
13     obviously a distinct disadvantage for subscribing to
14     one channel of that particular type and I have noticed
15     that the Chinese channel -- and I understand there will
16     be a presentation a little bit later on from that
17     community -- is in the same position, where, in fact,
18     they are asked to pay $15.95, which is totally
19     outrageous.
20  62                   We note, with interest, that the
21     service is being offered to the cable companies free of
22     charge.  I think I have said.
23  63                   Finally, there is a darker matter,
24     which in fact has been sort of brewing in the German
25     community all over Canada.  I know that there have been


 1     two World Wars, there has been a lot of ill-feeling. 
 2     However, sooner or later, the anti-German content on
 3     many of the cable channels has to be addressed.  This
 4     is how we strongly feel about that, and hardly a day
 5     goes by in which Germans are consistently portrayed in
 6     the most unflattering terms on one of these channels.
 7  64                   Some of our members, especially those
 8     who have been born in Canada -- I came over as a little
 9     boy, I have two children that have been brought up over
10     here.  I consider them good Canadians -- one is
11     finishing an engineering degree, and the other one is
12     going also to university.  I am talking about second
13     and third generations.  Why do these kids have to come
14     to me and ask why are these Germans so bloody terrible?
15     I find it difficult to understand this persistent type
16     of stereotyping you find on these channels.
17  65                   If there is question on this, I would
18     like one of the panel over here to remind of one
19     program that they have seen in the last 20 or 30 years
20     where in fact a German is depicted in a favourable
21     manner on any one of these so-called Hollywood movies
22     or documentaries.  Okay?  I would like to see that
23     evidence provided.
24  66                   No other ethnic group in Canada would
25     stand for this type of blatant portrayal and we are


 1     investigating the new anti-hate laws which came in and
 2     we are not going to drop it right there.
 3  67                   Basically, that is my presentation,
 4     except that the documentation is here, the letters to
 5     the cable companies -- I can read you one to Mr. Kerr,
 6     the General Manager of VIDEON and some of the
 7     responses, all documented here, our letters to the
 8     politicians, and I have supplied also in this package
 9     samples of replies of four provincial politicians
10     supporting us, and also four federal politicians
11     supporting us.  So this package over here is presented
12     to you for your perusal.
13  68                   Let me just read you the letter that
14     we have sent to Mr. Kerr.  VIDEON, I must admit, did
15     respond in a very favourable manner, but Shaw took six
16     months to even answer us which, again, is not very nice
17     public P.R.  Basically when, in fact, I had a chat 
18     with the Minister of Culture when she visited the
19     Jewish Congress in Winnipeg -- and she was also making
20     a presentation at the Italian Centre -- and she was in
21     her speech mentioning how important the cultural
22     groups, other than the francophones and the
23     anglophones, were becoming and that, in fact, the
24     government is going to, in the future, pay a little bit
25     more attention to their needs and their aspirations.


 1  69                   Let me just read you this:
 2                            "The German Society of Winnipeg,
 3                            founded in 1892, is one of the
 4                            oldest cultural societies in
 5                            Manitoba and, indeed, Canada,
 6                            marrying the cultural
 7                            aspirations of tens of thousands
 8                            of Manitobans of germanic
 9                            origin.  The German-Canadian
10                            community is the third largest
11                            ethnic group in Canada, behind
12                            the anglophones and the
13                            francophones, comprising
14                            approximately 12 per cent of the
15                            Canadian population and
16                            approximately 18 per cent of the
17                            population of Manitoba --
18                            indeed, the second largest
19                            ethnic group in this province. 
20                            As you no doubt are aware, the
21                            CRTC has already approved the
22                            German television station the
23                            Deutsch Welle, and although this
24                            program is free of charge to all
25                            cable companies, the German


 1                            community is still waiting for
 2                            the service to be offered in
 3                            this province.  It is hard to
 4                            convince many of our members
 5                            that there is not some blatant
 6                            discrimination involved against
 7                            the German community.  This
 8                            matter is of grave importance to
 9                            the German-Canadian community,
10                            and we would appreciate an
11                            explanation as to why the
12                            service is not being offered in
13                            this province.  Furthermore, an
14                            ever growing number of our
15                            members, and other individuals
16                            of germanic origin, have brought
17                            to our attention a potentially
18                            serious problem.  They are
19                            concerned how the German nation
20                            and its culture are being
21                            portrayed in the media 53 years
22                            after the war.  The cable
23                            companies' selections of
24                            channels are a particular
25                            concern.  Hardly a day goes by,


 1                            when some film or so-called
 2                            documentary shown on all of your
 3                            channels in which the Germans
 4                            are portrayed in most
 5                            unfaltering terms.  Some of our
 6                            members, especially those who
 7                            have been born in Canada --
 8                            second and third generations --
 9                            find it difficult to understand
10                            this kind of persistent
11                            stereotyping.  The German
12                            television channel will be the
13                            first step to bring into balance
14                            the selection of channels you
15                            are offering.  The viewer of
16                            germanic background would have a
17                            choice to see his culture
18                            portrayed from a different point
19                            of view. (As read)
20  70                   I hope it is appreciated what we are
21     saying over here, and the responses -- I won't bore the
22     assembly with them -- however, they were unsatisfactory
23     to us so, therefore, we took the political route and we
24     intend to pursue this matter until it is resolved in an
25     amiable manner on both sides.


 1  71                   Thank you very much, ladies and
 2     gentlemen.
 3  72                   THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
 4     Preiss.
 5  73                   In your being late, you missed my
 6     initial apology of coughing, and I meant no rudeness by
 7     leaving the room.
 8  74                   Anyway, thank you very much.  We will
 9     now go on to the next presenter.
11  75                   MR. KRUSHEN:  Thank you, Madam Chair. 
12     I would now like to call Mr. Philip Lee of the Winnipeg
13     Chinese Cultural Centre.
14  76                   MR. LEE:  Good afternoon and thank
15     you for inviting us over here.  Madam Chairperson and
16     Mr. Commissioners and ladies and gentlemen.
17  77                   My name is Phil Lee.  I am the Vice
18     President of the Winnipeg Chinese Cultural and
19     Community Centre.  I am here to make this presentation
20     to your Commission respecting the policies that might
21     impact the future directions of the CRTC.
22  78                   First, a description of our
23     organization, the Winnipeg Chinese Cultural and
24     Community Centre.  It is an umbrella organization of
25     the Chinese community in Winnipeg and its function is


 1     to provide services to members of our community such as
 2     cultural activities, translation services, assistance
 3     to the elderly and to liaise with the different levels
 4     of government to help any member in the community who
 5     may not be fluent in English.
 6  79                   The position of our cultural centre
 7     is that we seek to present our viewpoint to make the
 8     deposition to your Commission about the future
 9     directions of the CRTC.
10  80                   As you know, Canada has attracted the
11     economic immigrants we need to strengthen our economy. 
12     We bring in skilled workers to meet our labour market
13     needs -- at the same time, we remain committed to
14     family reunification and the realization of
15     multiculturalism in Canada.
16  81                   The well-being of new immigrants has
17     a profound impact on all aspects of life in Canada. 
18     This is true at present, and it has been true since the
19     time of Confederation in 1867.
20  82                   In the early 60s, the ChinaVision of
21     Toronto attempted to provide a network across Canada so
22     that the Toronto Chinese Television provided ethnic
23     programs to the Chinese-Canadian families in Winnipeg
24     through rental of cables from local cable companies
25     such as VIDEON and Shaw Cable Television Systems.


 1  83                   The hours of service in those days
 2     were only limited to four hours per day from, I
 3     believe, 6:00 p.m. to 10:00 p.m. and, even with that
 4     limited number of hours of service, the community was
 5     very, very satisfied at least to be able to enjoy some
 6     ethnic programs and, at the same time, to be able to
 7     learn something across Canada where other Chinese
 8     communities exist.
 9  84                   Unfortunately, this only lasted for a
10     few months because there were insufficient numbers of
11     subscribers in Winnipeg to maintain the cost of the
12     cable rental.  I believe that ChinaVision, at that
13     time, was not able to pay the rent and, accordingly,
14     the VIDEON and Shaw Cable Service cut them off and
15     disconnected the network.
16  85                   So, the ethnic programs were
17     interrupted by an on and off service for a while and
18     then, eventually, taken off the air entirely.  This has
19     caused a great deal of frustrations on the part of the
20     Chinese-Canadian families in Winnipeg because then,
21     suddenly, we seemed to be victimized because of the
22     fact that we were too small a number in our
23     representation across Canada.
24  86                   Then, since the takeover of
25     ChinaVision by Fairchild Television in Toronto and


 1     Vancouver, ethnic programs are available again through
 2     satellite service and this is -- as our friend Mr.
 3     Preiss indicated earlier -- through ExpressVu we were
 4     able to use a satellite dish to receive signals to all
 5     the subscribers in Winnipeg.
 6  87                   But, as you know, we do pay a price
 7     for it.  I think the average subscriber actually pays
 8     about $30 per month and, basically, the only channel
 9     they used primarily was the Fairchild Television
10     Network.  The other ones, the peak fare on it would be
11     something like satellite programs from Vancouver and
12     Calgary channels, but those are really piggyback and
13     the use of those channels was very infrequent.
14  88                   But, anyway, I think that is the
15     price we are willing to pay and since we have this
16     television series now, the people in the community are
17     able to get the soap operas from Hong Kong, news from
18     Hong Kong, news across Canada -- which is very
19     important because many of the Chinese-Canadians who are
20     not fluent in English have not been able to get the
21     Canadian news or the news from the U.S. or the news
22     from the world at all, so, basically, they are linked
23     to the rest of the world through newspapers and then
24     through the library but which is always a few days old.
25  89                   Now, with the television, they are


 1     able to have access within the half-day period to what
 2     happened on the other side of the world or what
 3     happened in Europe and even, lately, a lot of Chinese
 4     in the community talk about the impeachment process and
 5     all that -- which was never presented to them years
 6     ago.
 7  90                   But, nevertheless, the mixture of
 8     Canadian content and the content around the world
 9     enhanced the knowledge and the scope of the people who
10     don't have English as a first language but arrived with
11     English as a second language.
12  91                   So, now new immigrants and the
13     Chinese-Canadians are much more aware of the Canadian
14     news as well as the news around the world, and I think
15     this, certainly, is an enhancement to the multicultural
16     aspect of Canada.
17  92                   This is also a great incentive to
18     encourage Canadians to become part of the mainstream of
19     the Canadian society as well, because this is what
20     multiculturalism is all about.
21  93                   So, in conclusion, I would like to
22     say that the Chinese community in Winnipeg will
23     strongly support the presence of Chinese television,
24     such as the one provided by Fairchild through satellite
25     service.  We understand that the CRTC supervises all


 1     local cable companies on a regular basis.  We recommend
 2     that the CRTC, in developing its broadcasting policy,
 3     place priority on protecting the interests of visible
 4     minorities as well as other minority groups so that
 5     they are able to enjoy the multilinguistic policies and
 6     cultural policies of the CRTC.
 7  94                   Thank you, ladies and gentlemen.
 8  95                   THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Lee. 
 9     Mr. Secretary?
10  96                   MR. KRUSHEN:  Thank you, Madam Chair. 
11     I would now like to call Mr. Mario Audino of the
12     Italian Cultural Centre.
14  97                   MR. AUDINO:  My name is Mario Audino. 
15     I am currently Executive Director of the Centro Caboto
16     Centre, which is the newly built and opened
17     Italian-Canadian Centre in the Southwest end of the
18     City of Winnipeg.
19  98                   We relocated there just last year
20     from an old and small place on Notre Dame Avenue, and I
21     believe we are now in full-swing in the implementation
22     of our programs and activities over there.
23  99                   I don't have a formal presentation as
24     such, but I do have three or four points that I would
25     like to make and they relate largely to the local


 1     reality as it pertains to the topic that we are
 2     addressing.
 3  100                  I am not personally very familiar
 4     with the CRTC policy, but I do understand that the
 5     spirit of it would allow -- or would contain enough
 6     motivational ingredients -- to allow the production and
 7     distribution of ethnic community-based T.V. programs.
 8  101                  I am obviously talking about the
 9     Italian community and that is the situation that I know
10     better.  We are quite well-covered with respect to
11     radio programs -- the Italian community has been lucky,
12     I think -- largely, perhaps, because the President and
13     General Manager of CKJS radio station who just spoke --
14     he was the first speaker -- happens to be of Italian
15     background.  I suppose this has something to do with
16     the fact that we do have quite consistent and
17     successful Italian programming in the community, or
18     maybe the programming is viable enough that Tony Carta
19     has decided to continue to support it.
20     --- Laughter / Rires
21  102                  Maybe both, maybe a combination of
22     both.  So, we are covered there.  Where we are lacking
23     terribly right now is on the T.V. side.  We do, of
24     course, receive the Tele Latino program via Toronto. 
25     It comes, I guess, directly from Italy but it is


 1     massaged and controlled in Toronto and then, I guess,
 2     sent towards the West in whatever shape or form we get
 3     it, and in Winnipeg we experience a terrible problem in
 4     the sense that the people who are living on the
 5     so-called East side of the Red River, they started
 6     received Tele Latino a long time ago while those of us
 7     who were unfortunate to happen to live on the West side
 8     of the Red River -- and Craig MacLaren can attest to
 9     that -- we only started receiving Tele Latino until a
10     few months ago.
11  103                  Anyways, we did make some progress
12     there and we do now receive Tele Latino which is a good
13     program and it is enjoyed by many people of Italian
14     background, and those of Spanish background because it
15     combines Italian and Spanish.
16  104                  Where we are lacking, as I said
17     before, and where, in my opinion, there is a huge void,
18     is at the community-based level.  And, here, at least
19     within the Italian community, we went from one extreme
20     to the other.  By this I mean that up to seven or eight
21     ago we had three community-based and produced T.V.
22     programs.  Currently, we don't have any community-based
23     T.V. programs and why don't we have any?  Well, I
24     guess, there have been several changes at all levels. 
25     While there has been tremendous progress on the part of


 1     our community in the sense that we do now have better
 2     resources -- the fact that we now have the new Italian
 3     Cultural Centre is an example of that.  We definitely
 4     have better human and financial resources to use our
 5     own community-based programming, however, we have not
 6     been able to access the studios of either VIDEON nor
 7     Shaw.
 8  105                  A group of us met a few months ago
 9     with Craig MacLaren -- who is here -- and he explained
10     to us the policy, the context, the parameters, the new
11     directives and directions, and so on.  At the same
12     time, he also encouraged us to come up with some kind
13     of a plan and proposal.  So we went as far as preparing
14     and developing a plan for a 13-episode series program,
15     including names of hosts, who would do what, the
16     format, the content, the length, the themes, the
17     objectives, the audience, and everything else.
18  106                  However, a few months went by and
19     there was no response, and then upon enquiry we were
20     directed to another person who had, at that time, been
21     hired in a new capacity of community programming
22     manager.  An active member of our community and myself
23     met with this new manager, but to no avail.  The answer
24     was, no, we cannot accommodate you.
25  107                  So, I would like to bring this to the


 1     floor because I think that, just like us, many other
 2     communities probably would like to have the opportunity
 3     to develop and promote and produce their own half-hour
 4     or one hour, whatever it is, programs.
 5  108                  As I said, we did go from one extreme
 6     to the other, and I think that this reality applies now
 7     to other communities, not just a single instance of the
 8     Italian community, and we are prepared to invest both
 9     human and financial resources to make sure that we have
10     a liable and effective T.V. programming.  We would look
11     at something like this as an important and effective
12     vehicle to communicate our ideas, not only to the
13     citizens or the audience of Italian background, but to
14     everybody.
15  109                  After all, we think that we are an
16     important and active slice of the multicultural society
17     here, in Manitoba, and we are ready to play that role
18     and we would like to pursue this so that, in fact, we
19     have the access that I think should be available.
20  110                  Beyond being a vehicle of
21     communications, as I said before, I guess the
22     production of our community-based programming would
23     also become, I suppose, a training ground for future
24     producers and broadcasters.  After all, we now look at
25     the media and we do see that the reporters, the


 1     broadcasters, the journalists are not necessarily of
 2     one category and I we now do see them with cultural and
 3     racial diversity in action in the media and I don't see
 4     why we can't have that at the local level.
 5  111                  I think that I will stop here.  If
 6     the consideration of the local level for not allowing
 7     access to the production of these programs stems from
 8     the fact that their interpretation of the policy --
 9     including the multiculturalism policy -- might be that
10     we don't want to ghettorized and that we want to
11     mainstream more and more.  I really don't see where the
12     fear is because assimilation is here already.  All we
13     have to do is look around at the so-called
14     well-established communities and that is exactly what
15     we are trying to do -- fight assimilation.
16  112                  And, as we know, multiculturalism
17     originally intended to do a couple of things.  Number
18     one, facilitate the integration of newcomers to Canada
19     and, number two, slow down the rate of assimilation.
20     So, if, on the other hand, the policy continues to
21     maintain that cultural diversity and linguistic
22     diversity are valuable to Canadian society, then let's
23     practice that in our own backyards before we go around
24     preaching to the rest of the world for which we are
25     proud.


 1  113                  Thank you.
 2  114                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
 3     Audino.  Mr. Secretary?
 4  115                  MR. KRUSHEN:  Thank you, Madam Chair. 
 5     I would now like to call Ms Myroslava Pidhirnyj of the
 6     Ukrainian-Canadian Congress.
 8  116                  MS PIDHIRNYJ:  Madam Chair,
 9     honourable members of the task force.  My name is
10     Myroslava Pidhirnyj and I am the Second Vice President
11     of the Ukrainian-Canadian Congress, the national body. 
12     Along with me is my colleague Lesia Szwaluk.
13  117                  We do have a written presentation
14     that we will be pleased to share with you at the end of
15     the session.
16  118                  The Ukrainian-Canadian Congress was
17     founded in 1940 with the explicit goal of unifying and
18     coordinating efforts of various Ukrainian organizations
19     operating across Canada.
20  119                  The UCC is an umbrella organization
21     with 27 national member-organizations, 6 provincial
22     councils, and 27 branches across the country.  The UCC
23     represents the Ukrainian-Canadian community before the
24     people and the provides
25     leadership and coordination, promotes linkages with


 1     Ukraine and identifies and addresses the needs of the
 2     Ukrainian community in Canada to ensure its continued
 3     existence and development for the enhancement of
 4     Canada's socio-cultural fabric.
 5  120                  The Ukrainian-Canadian Congress
 6     welcomes the CRTC's decision to review its policy on
 7     third-language and ethnic broadcasting in Canada, and
 8     appreciates this opportunity to present the views of
 9     the Ukrainian-Canadian community.
10  121                  In the fourteen years since the last
11     review, Canada has become a more culturally and
12     linguistically diverse country.  Almost 80 per cent of
13     the one million immigrants who arrived between 1991 and
14     1996 reported a mother tongue other than English or
15     French.
16  122                  A Canadian heritage and identity that
17     is common to all must be respected and promoted,
18     however, for the full and equitable participation of
19     Canada's ethno-cultural communities in Canada's
20     mainstream, their cultural and social rights must be
21     preserved and enhanced.
22  123                  The timing of the review, from the
23     Ukrainian perspective, is very fortunate.  The Prime
24     Minister of Canada, The Right Honourable Jean Chrétien,
25     recently ended his official visit to Ukraine where he,


 1     once again, underscored the importance of the Ukrainian
 2     community to Canada's cultural and economic policies.
 3  124                  Additionally, the 19th Triennial
 4     National Congress of the UCC, held in Winnipeg in
 5     October 1998, included the development of a holistic
 6     approach to the retention and flourishing of the
 7     Ukrainian-Canadian culture.
 8  125                  Section 3.1(d)iii of the Broadcasting
 9     Act, states that the Canadian Broadcasting System
10     should, and I quote:
11                            "Through its programming and the
12                            employment opportunities arising
13                            out of its operations, serve the
14                            needs and interests and reflect
15                            the circumstances and
16                            aspirations of Canadian men,
17                            women and children, including
18                            equal rights, the linguistic
19                            duality and multicultural and
20                            multiracial nature of Canadian
21                            society, and the special place
22                            of Aboriginal peoples within
23                            that society.  The media,
24                            therefore, should be mirroring
25                            the full range of today's


 1                            Canadian multicultural reality
 2                            in its programming.  The media
 3                            must foster a society that
 4                            recognizes, respects and
 5                            reflects a diversity of cultures
 6                            so that peoples of all
 7                            backgrounds feel a sense of
 8                            belonging to a truly inclusive
 9                            nation that is Canada".
10                            (As read)
11  126                  This is of greater fundamental
12     concern today than ever before in our history since 42
13     per cent of Canada's population has neither a French or
14     English background.
15                                                        1650
16  127                  While mainstream media should be
17     reflecting the variety and richness of Canadian
18     community life, ethnic media serves a dual purpose
19     within various ethnic communities, and to a lesser
20     extent, providing a window into the country of origin
21     and making the transition to Canadian life smoother. 
22     Third-language radio and television programs must be
23     protected.  Broadcasting of this nature contributes to
24     maintaining a quality of life for Canadian senior
25     citizens who constitute an ever growing segment of our


 1     society.  These programs also assist newcomers in
 2     learning and adapting to Canadian life.
 3  128                  Ethnic business, although it is never
 4     contained within strictly ethnic borders, constitutes a
 5     significant portion of general small business in
 6     Canada.  Community programs, therefore, become an
 7     important element of marketing infrastructure for small
 8     or middle-sized entrepreneurs.
 9  129                  Mainstream broadcast outlets should
10     allocate airtime to ethnic communities based on
11     regional presence.  This way, more community monies
12     could be redirected toward better regional programming
13     and overall higher quality productions.
14  130                  The creation of such a platform would
15     do much towards raising the self-esteem of ethnic
16     communities and promoting better Canadian citizenship.
17  131                  The CRTC should ensure that grants
18     are available to help offset the costs associated with
19     ethnic programming, particularly where these
20     communities have a considerable audience.
21  132                  Radio-Canada International: We
22     recognize that the CRTC has limited regulational
23     authority over the RCI, however, Radio-Canada 
24     International's Ukrainian programming has a three-fold
25     function.  One, it informs Ukrainians in Eastern Europe


 1     about Canada and its democratic way of life; two, it
 2     informs Ukrainians in Canada about issues, events and
 3     achievements in the Ukrainian-Canadian community; and,
 4     three, it informs Canadians about the major
 5     developments in Ukraine and Eastern Europe.  RCI
 6     programs should be rebroadcast in Canada through local
 7     AM-FM stations.
 8  133                  Access to public broadcasting: 
 9     Canadian public broadcasters should focus on reflecting
10     the full range of Canada's multicultural experience in
11     dramatic productions, entertainment, news coverage, and
12     documentary programming.  News coverage should
13     regularly focus on community life and issues of
14     importance to Canada's diverse population and fairly
15     report on important community events and achievements. 
16     Feature documentaries must examine both the early and
17     current attempts by various ethnic communities to
18     establish themselves in Canada.
19  134                  Here, I think it is important to note
20     that, on various occasions, the Ukrainian-Canadian
21     Congress, our member-organizations, other congresses
22     and other ethnic organizations, in celebrating their
23     achievements in marking events, often, usually invite
24     the media -- we are talking about the written media as
25     well as radio and television -- to cover these events. 


 1     It is very rare that they actually do.
 2  135                  Public and private broadcasters in
 3     Canada should be required to air at least ten hours per
 4     week of ethnic broadcasting which would be allocated to
 5     communities based on population, demand and ability of
 6     the community to produce or supply programming which
 7     contains 50 per cent Canadian content.
 8  136                  This will result in heightened
 9     community awareness of activities from coast-to-coast
10     and the promotion of a greater understanding among
11     Canada's diverse population from which Canada will
12     surely benefit.
13  137                  Programming directed specifically to
14     ethno-cultural groups should reflect national, regional
15     and local experiences and provide information about
16     Canada.  It should serve as a link to the community --
17     one that strengthens and unites by informing listeners
18     and viewers about the larger Canadian community of
19     which they are a part.
20  138                  Ethnic media also needs a dedicated
21     broadcasting platform to facilitate inexpensive access
22     to the mainstream media.  Ideally, this would entail
23     the creation of a national multilingual network.
24  139                  In conclusion, the Ukrainian-Canadian
25     Congress strongly urges the CRTC to undertake the


 1     following:
 2  140                  One, to renew the commitment it made
 3     in 1985 to basic principles entrenched in the
 4     broadcasting policy reflecting Canada's cultural and
 5     linguistic diversity.  It must ensure that mechanisms
 6     are put into place which afford these principles
 7     appropriate resources for implementation.
 8  141                  Two, create a national multilingual
 9     network to ensure that ethnic programs are broadcast
10     across Canada.
11  142                  Three, regulate public and private
12     broadcasters to allot at least ten hours per week to
13     ethnic broadcasting.
14  143                  Four, create an ombudsman position to
15     ensure that Canadian broadcasting reflects the
16     multicultural reality of Canada.
17  144                  Five, monitor and ensure that
18     producers of ethno-cultural and third-language
19     programming, both domestically and internationally,
20     adhere to the spirit of values entrenched in the
21     Broadcasting Act, Canadian Multiculturalism Act,
22     Canadian Human Rights Act and the Canadian Charter of
23     Rights and Freedoms in the creation of any programming.
24  145                  Thank you very much.
25  146                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you


 1     Ms Pidhirnyj.  Mr. Secretary?
 2  147                  MR. KRUSHEN:  Thank you, Madam Chair. 
 3     That now completes the list of presenters who had
 4     pre-registered for this consultation, but at this point
 5     I would like to ask if there is anyone else in the room
 6     who has not yet made a presentation who would like to
 7     do so?  No?  Madam Chair?
 8  148                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  What I
 9     would now like is everybody to roll their chairs up to
10     the table, even industry -- Tim, sitting back there. 
11     Roll up your chairs and I am going to ask my colleague,
12     Mr. Demers, to put an issue on the table and we would
13     like to hear from everybody what they think of what we
14     have on the table and I hope to get a free discussion
15     moving this way.
16  149                  Mr. Demers?
17  150                  MR. DEMERS:  Thank you, Madam Chair. 
18     Thank you for your presentations -- very interesting
19     and to the point.  The last presentation referred to a
20     national network.  Could we have comments from other
21     persons around the table on this point?  That was a
22     question that was asked by the Commission in its public
23     notice because this point was also raised by, I
24     believe, the first person.  Mr. Carta, you referred to
25     that maybe?


 1  151                  MR. CARTA:  I don't believe it is a
 2     priority.  First of all, the largest markets in
 3     Canada -- namely Toronto and Montreal -- are very well
 4     served by multilingual television.  There are two
 5     multilingual television licenses -- CFMT and CJNT -- in
 6     Montreal.  They are not broadcasting 100 per cent in
 7     ethnic programming, but they are coming back to the
 8     Commission -- especially CJNT -- to ask to reduce its
 9     commitment of ethnic-Canadian programming.
10  152                  So, first of all, if the Commission
11     should licence a national television network, the
12     programming would be dictated from Toronto and we go
13     back to the same situation that Ukrainians and
14     Germans -- which are the two largest groups in
15     Manitoba -- they will get half an hour a week,
16     basically, because markets Chinese, Italian and East
17     Indian groups in Toronto will dictate the market across
18     the country.
19  153                  So, I don't think -- unless there is
20     a viable solution -- that the Commission should licence
21     a national television network.  I don't see any other
22     solution.  I doubt the government will be in the mood
23     to subsidise everybody in order that every single
24     ethnic group in Canada receive enough programming to be
25     satisfied.


 1  154                  No one -- I don't think the Germans,
 2     I don't think the Ukrainians -- will be satisfied with
 3     half an hour programming per week.  So, it is very
 4     difficult.  I sympathize with all the groups because we
 5     have been in business for the last 24 years in Winnipeg
 6     and when we started 24 years ago we started with five
 7     hours a day of Ukrainian programming, but Ukrainians
 8     and Germans are, perhaps, the oldest immigration groups
 9     in Canada and they integrated very fast and so they are
10     quite well assimilated.  But, there is always a core of
11     people in the community that still care and they would
12     like to see this.
13  155                  But, again, I doubt the government
14     come out and pay for the costs of television
15     programming for everybody.  So, if there is a solution
16     in the future that cable companies can accommodate
17     seniors, like Mr. Preiss was asking, that would be more
18     beneficial, but a national television network will
19     duplicate the programming that is, perhaps, already
20     done by CFMT, taking into consideration that Fairchild
21     Television is already on satellite and Tele Latino --
22     mostly cables all across Canada.
23  156                  So, the three or four largest
24     language groups in Canada, they are seeing across the
25     country at this moment, either on cable or satellite,


 1     Canadian satellite.
 2  157                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Is the issue -- I
 3     mean, we are talking smaller markets because we are in
 4     Manitoba -- is the issue here that we don't want to
 5     hear Toronto Greek, or Toronto Ukrainian, and are we 
 6     really back to Mr. Audino's issue that the priority in
 7     the smaller markets has to be local programming?
 8  158                  MR. CARTA:  It is quite an expensive
 9     proposition, that is the problem that if you produce
10     decent television programming, you have to come up with
11     a lot, lot of money.  That is the only problem.
12  159                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  If there is anybody
13     else, please jump in.
14  160                  MR. PREISS:  We are quite realistic
15     about this.  We don't expect vast amounts of money to
16     be spent on a studio of German production facilities
17     here in Manitoba.  All we are asking is what we feel --
18     or have felt, for many years now -- something which in
19     fact is quite reasonable.  That station is, in fact,
20     multilingual in itself because it is, I believe -- if
21     my memory doesn't fail me -- only 60 per cent German. 
22     There is 30 per cent English and there is, in fact,
23     some hispanic on there too.  So, you know, all we are
24     asking is to see our culture as represented by a German
25     television channel so our youngsters will have a window


 1     to another point of view of their culture than is being
 2     presented in the media right across Canada at the
 3     present time, and we are going to try to change that if
 4     at all possible.
 5  161                  There are a number of questions later
 6     on I would like to ask the CRTC because I always
 7     thought that the CRTC had full control over content and
 8     could, in fact, licence or revoke licences of stations
 9     which in fact, basically, do not practice tolerance
10     between racial groups and the various ethnic groups in
11     Canada, and I thought we were all going to live
12     together in tranquillity.  Why this indecisiveness?
13  162                  So, I would like you to consider
14     what, in fact, VIDEON responded, and I am not exactly
15     sure what it means.  I will bring that up a little bit
16     later.  But, I just wanted to make clear that we are
17     not asking anything special here on the local level. 
18     The Chairman, of course, is right, it would be too
19     costly.  All we are asking is for a window on our
20     culture.
21  163                  Thank you.
22  164                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Audino?
23  165                  MR. AUDINO:  First of all, I would
24     like to congratulate the last presenter.  It is obvious
25     that they did a lot of good research -- the statistics,


 1     and so on.  It is, perhaps, what I should have done.  I
 2     did not get into that, but I certainly would endorse
 3     the idea of establishing some kind of national network.
 4  166                  Now, I am not too sure and I can't
 5     envision myself how it would work or the mechanism of
 6     it, but there are certainly aspects there that even if
 7     there was not to be a licence for a national network
 8     per se, definitely the need to ensure there is
 9     consistency of standards across the country -- or
10     training opportunities -- to ensure that if, in fact,
11     we get to the point to where we are all going to be
12     able to do our little local programming, at least we
13     will know that there are certain levels of standards to
14     maintain and we all would have to respect the rules and
15     regulations in the spirit of the CRTC policy.
16  167                  From that aspect alone, I strongly
17     would advocate the implementation of some kind of a
18     national network.
19  168                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Are you
20     referring to a national network or the standards of so
21     many hours on public private broadcasting or --?
22  169                  MR. AUDINO:  My concern at this stage
23     would be more on the standards in terms of time, in
24     terms of program delivery, in terms of guidelines for
25     content, ensuring that the Canadian content mandate is


 1     respected, and ensuring that whatever is done at the
 2     local level is within an accepted -- nationally
 3     accepted -- framework.
 4  170                  Again, I can't relate to what Tony
 5     Carta is talking about there and maybe I should become
 6     a little more familiar with the implications of the
 7     concept.
 8  171                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Ms Pidhirnyj?
 9  172                  MS PIDHIRNYJ:  We haven't come
10     forward with a full proposal for a network and so on --
11     this is a seed of an idea -- nevertheless we feel that,
12     given the fact that the Ukrainian-Canadian Community is
13     dispersed throughout various regions of Canada -- not
14     all of which have access to cable networks -- we feel
15     that all of them should be served through a national
16     network of some sort.
17  173                  I think that other communities, as
18     well, which are lesser or greater organized than the
19     Canadian Ukrainian community, would also welcome an
20     opportunity to have a venue for show casing their
21     achievements, for show casing their talents, for
22     bringing the world -- as somebody else so eloquently
23     put it -- to the community, and bringing the community
24     then to the world.
25  174                  I think that this is a seed of an


 1     idea that warrants greater exploration, and I would
 2     welcome the CRTC to review this a little more in depth,
 3     and I think the Ukrainian-Canadian community would be
 4     willing to research this further and, together with
 5     other communities, perhaps put forward a proposal such
 6     as the Aboriginal community has recently done before
 7     the CRTC -- and I understand that the CRTC is quite
 8     favourably looking at an Aboriginal --
 9  175                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Absolutely no
10     comment.  Absolutely no comment.
11     --- Laughter / Rires
12  176                  Can I throw something else into --
13     when we are talking here about a network and some sort
14     of safeguard of having some exposure -- what you are
15     talking about is really having some ethnic programming
16     on a required basis.
17  177                  What about the Internet?  How does
18     that impact on anything which is right now unregulated
19     and how does it impact on any broadcasting -- radio or 
20     television -- any standards we would make and how would
21     it impact on getting your voice out?  Getting the
22     ethnic voice out to other members of Ukrainian descent
23     across Canada?
24  178                  MS PIDHIRNYJ:  Well, if you are
25     specifically asking about the Ukrainian community, I


 1     would say that the Ukrainian professional community,
 2     and so on, is well-served by the technological age and
 3     has access to computers and to the Internet, and
 4     certainly we utilize it for our purposes and for
 5     communication purposes, but with that segment of the
 6     population.  There are older senior citizens in our
 7     community, newcomers, and so on, who are not as
 8     well-served through the Internet.
 9  179                  In terms of how CRTC guidelines would
10     impact, I really, Madam Chairman, don't have an idea as
11     to how those guidelines could be applied to the
12     Internet given that it is so free and flowing -- the
13     information on the Internet -- that it is actually very
14     frightening.
15  180                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Wouldn't that be
16     another platform, though -- as they say in the
17     broadcasting business -- another platform to get your
18     message out, in addition to radio and television?
19  181                  MS PIDHIRNYJ:  And it is being
20     utilized, yes.  Most -- many, I shouldn't say most --
21     but many Ukrainian organizations do have web sites and
22     so on, and regularly update them but, again, depending
23     on the organization, depending on the age bracket as
24     well, in terms of whether they use the technology or
25     not.


 1  182                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  It is Ms Szwaluk?
 2  183                  MS SZWALUK:  I think that Myroslava
 3     basically mentioned what I was going to say about our
 4     senior citizens who do have that access.  And I just
 5     look at my own parents or the aging population in the
 6     Ukrainian community who look forward to the radio
 7     program on CKJS for that one hour a day, who look
 8     forward to the contact on CKY that is on for an hour.
 9  184                  When you look at the statistics of
10     how many people watch that T.V. program one hour on
11     Saturday, it blows your mind because the fact is that
12     it is that only window of opportunity that they have to
13     watch Ukraine, what is happening across Canada in other
14     ethnic and Ukrainian communities.  So, that is why I
15     think that a multilingual station is very, very
16     important.
17  185                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Audino?
18  186                  MR. AUDINO:  I don't know why we hear
19     words such as the Internet, the technological advances. 
20     Now we take for granted that everybody knows how to use
21     them or how to access them.  That is not the case --
22     certainly not with me, I am not that technologically
23     inclined.
24  187                  As was said before, there is a large
25     segment of the people -- the young professionals who


 1     have a certain aptitude towards technology and they
 2     know how to use the various networks that are at their
 3     disposal -- but there is a large segment of people who
 4     are not there, who are not technologically ready. 
 5     Maybe ten years from now we will get to that point.  In
 6     the meantime, what do we do?  We here to provide this
 7     outlet where these people, they themselves, become the
 8     players, the active players.
 9  188                  What do we do?  We wait for another
10     ten years until they are technologically ready?  I
11     don't think that makes sense.  From the Italian
12     community perspective -- and, again, I go back to the
13     local reality -- the need is there, it is now, and it
14     is real.
15                                                        1715
16  189                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  One of the first
17     questions in the Public Notice was: is there a need for
18     an ethnic policy in broadcasting -- and I don't want to
19     put words in your mouth -- but what I am hearing from
20     this room is that there is a need not only to have a
21     policy, but a fairly specific policy.
22  190                  Am I wrong or right?  Mr. Preiss?
23  191                  MR. PREISS:  Yes, I guess what you
24     are saying or the point of view that you are expressing
25     is that the Internet is there and all the ethnic groups


 1     can gather all the information from it rather than have
 2     their own service here in Canada?  Is that what --
 3  192                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Oh, no, I am not
 4     saying that, I would never say that because then I
 5     would be out of a job.
 6     --- Laughter / Rires
 7  193                  No, I mean as an alternate, as an
 8     additional way of communicating with each other and
 9     serving all --
10  194                  MR. PREISS:  I think that is already
11     happening, and I think our Ukrainians friends have
12     expressed that idea and I am sure that every ethnic
13     group -- younger people and professionals are already
14     using the Internet and are quite familiar with the
15     computer -- but it is also true that we do have an
16     aging population, which, in fact, you know the computer
17     and the Internet is something alien to them, and they
18     still rely on that radio broadcast and still would like
19     to see that television program which they so much
20     cherish, see a little bit of their old country and
21     refresh their memories.
22  195                  And, that is a value in itself and I
23     don't think that will ever be replaced by the Internet
24     or the computer or any of that sort of technology.
25  196                  These images are there -- which, in


 1     fact, you know, cannot be duplicated by computer
 2     technology.
 3  197                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  So, what should
 4     change in the present policy that we have?  More       
 5     specificity, standards of a requirement of broadcasting
 6     ethnic programming by the public/private broadcasters? 
 7     What should be in that policy?
 8  198                  MR. PREISS:  Well, I would like to
 9     see that an ethnic group like our own shouldn't have a
10     five-year battle with two cable companies to get the
11     obvious and that the need is there if 2,000-3,000
12     people sign a petition and that petition is being
13     presented and they are ready to sign up, no one can
14     tell me that that need isn't there, and we haven't
15     actually advertised that fully.
16  199                  I pointed out that 18 per cent of the
17     population of this province is of germanic origin and
18     understands the language.  So, taking that into
19     consideration, it would be nice if, in fact, before
20     some of these cable companies are licensed, that there
21     would be an understanding that they would carry a
22     variety of channels -- including some ethnic
23     channels -- at a reasonable price.
24  200                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  So, you would be
25     talking about some sort of mandatory coverage by


 1     mandatory access?
 2  201                  MR. PREISS:  Well, isn't almost
 3     everything mandatory that the CRTC actually regulates? 
 4     Yes, of course --
 5  202                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  No, sometimes we
 6     are nice.
 7  203                  MR. PREISS:  If, in fact, people
 8     become unreasonable, then there is no other way, is
 9     there?
10  204                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  I think there is,
11     in fact, aren't there, Mr. Batstone, some access
12     regulations in force?
13  205                  MR. BATSTONE:  There are access
14     provisions that the CRTC administers.  The service that
15     you are speaking of in particular is a foreign service
16     so there is a slightly different regime for that and
17     the Commission has tried to balance the needs of
18     communities to get programming that they are
19     interesting in with, also I think, the interests of the
20     distributors as well in not being too heavy-handed in
21     terms of how they operate their businesses.
22  206                  So, there is a bit of a balance going
23     on there.
24  207                  MR. PREISS:  Can I make an
25     observation?  Although you pointed out this foreign


 1     programming, and you might have a problem with that,
 2     but it is the most cost-effective way of getting
 3     cultural programming into this country, otherwise you
 4     would have to produce many of these programs right here
 5     and, although perhaps, the German community is large
 6     enough to do so, however many other smaller
 7     communities, perhaps, are not.  And these programs
 8     would have to be imported from overseas and we are
 9     talking about the age of the computer, we are talking
10     about the age of the satellite, is that a problem?
11  208                  MR. BATSTONE:  All I am
12     suggesting --or all I was sort of explaining -- is that
13     the way the Act and the Regulations are set up right
14     now, preference, if you will, is given to Canadian
15     services and so whereas there is a regime that requires
16     that the cable distributors to carry the Canadian
17     services before foreign-authorized services.  That is
18     the way the system is developed.
19  209                  MR. PREISS:  Well, perhaps that
20     should be reviewed.
21  210                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Ms Pidhirnyj?
22  211                  MS PIDHIRNYJ:  I would like to make
23     two points, if I may.  First of all, Madam Chairman,
24     you asked whether or not the policy should be amended
25     in some way.  I don't think the policy -- a policy is,


 1     I think, by definition, broad in its scope.  It sets
 2     out the vision or the goal, and then the regulations
 3     are the ones that actually indicate how that policy is
 4     to be implemented.
 5  212                  So, I don't think there is anything
 6     wrong to the policy as it stands at present.  Perhaps
 7     we need more teeth in the regulations.
 8  213                  The second point that I would like to
 9     make is with respect to the foreign versus Canadian
10     content.  I think we need both, and, yes, there needs
11     to be a balance.  Perhaps that balance needs to be
12     reviewed, but there needs to be a balance.  One is the
13     contact with the mother country, the nostalgia, and so
14     on, that it invokes among older people, but also the
15     information that it provides for younger people who,
16     perhaps, have never seen that country but have heard
17     about it and this gives them an opportunity.
18  214                  But, secondly, the linkages within
19     Canada -- and this is what we try to stress in our
20     presentation -- the linkages in the community, the
21     various parts of the community within Canada, the
22     celebration of our successes, the celebration of our
23     various events, and so on, to instill pride, to instill
24     that self-esteem in young people, to say, it is okay to
25     be Chinese, it is okay to be Italian, it is okay to be


 1     hyphenated Canadian, that doesn't make you worth less. 
 2     And, I think that both of these need to be balanced in
 3     the implementation of the policy.
 4  215                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  I am going to ask
 5     if anybody else has any comments on the issue of -- and
 6     you see we call it policy, but I think policy and
 7     regulations is where you are going but then the
 8     precision we also have it into one.
 9  216                  Does anybody have any comments?  We
10     were talking about the present policy, the necessity
11     for a policy, and if there should be any changes, what
12     should the changes be?  Anybody else?
13  217                  All right, let me throw another one
14     at you.  I listened with interest to Mr. Preiss' issue
15     of portrayal and I think that portrayal is an issue
16     that cuts across a lot of lines when we are talking
17     about visible minorities, in addition to your children
18     feeling a sense of self and pride in themselves.
19  218                  What do you feel about portrayal of
20     various ethnic individuals on the public airwaves right
21     now, as they are?  Is it acceptable to you the way
22     things are presently, or what should be changed?
23  219                  MR. PREISS:  Well, you know, look,
24     the German community has been very, very patient, I
25     might add, and very understanding and we are not


 1     objecting to Hollywood productions or artistic
 2     interpretations of human characteristics or character,
 3     far from it.  But, on the other hand, when you see, 
 4     movie after movie, presentation after presentation,
 5     where one ethnic group is totally scandalized and
 6     portrayed as brutes -- and I could use other
 7     adjectives, but I won't, everybody in this room knows
 8     what I am talking about -- then it becomes another
 9     matter altogether and, basically -- I am not only
10     talking about the German community, I saw some
11     unfaltering things about the Italians on many of these
12     programs -- and basically, the cable companies and the
13     people in Canada, in a multicultural nation, this is
14     becoming every day more so, should be far more
15     sensitive in the future to that sort of a thing.
16  220                  Because these things are totally
17     unacceptable and people are beginning to ask questions
18     and put pressure on us to do something about it, and if
19     it becomes necessary, then there is legal action or
20     whatever, or put pressure on the politicians to change
21     the laws.  Basically, we don't want to do this, we
22     don't want to get in any of these arguments but,
23     unfortunately, on many of these issues, we are forced
24     into it.
25  221                  In fact, the German community was


 1     about the most non-militant community in Canada and, as
 2     the Chairman pointed out, very, very assimilated,
 3     however, some of these things are driving many of our
 4     members to a little bit more militant position on them.
 5  222                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  What about the
 6     other side of the coin?  Of Mr. Lee's children being
 7     able to see that somebody can read the news or give the
 8     weather who will also look like him -- physically look
 9     like him.  I am talking about positive portrayal in the
10     media.
11  223                  MR. PREISS:  You are talking about
12     the visible minorities, now, are you not?
13  224                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  I was, but we were
14     talking about the negative portrayals and then positive
15     portrayals.  Is there enough of them, or is it around,
16     or what is needed?
17  225                  MR. PREISS:  Well, I am very glad to
18     see that over the last few decades more and more media
19     persons have been of the other gender and have been
20     other than white.  So, that is a positive step in the
21     right direction, and that gives us a sense of being
22     Canadians, because we all know that we are
23     multicultural.
24  226                  I see nothing wrong with that sort of
25     idea being, in fact, engrained by the CRTC, and laid


 1     down as one of the guidelines to many of our media
 2     providers.
 3  227                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  In terms of
 4     something along the line saying there should be a
 5     positive portrayal?
 6  228                  MR. PREISS:  Positive portrayal of
 7     ethnic groups which, in fact, make up the Canadian
 8     mosaic.
 9  229                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Anybody else?  Am I
10     raising boring topics?  Are there any other topics that
11     anybody else would like to raise?  Mr. Demers?
12  230                  MR. DEMERS:  Well, I don't know if it
13     is in a lesser degree, but Mr. Carta referred to a
14     situation and to the music during ethnic programs, and
15     I would like to make sure it was understood what you
16     were saying, Mr. Carta.
17  231                  Maybe you can come back to that and
18     to the third language, and maybe have reactions
19     from --in what way that would change, for example, the
20     ethnic programs that you broadcast on your station?
21  232                  MR. CARTA:  Are you referring to the
22     ethnic music?
23  233                  MR. DEMERS:  Yes, let's start with
24     that?
25  234                  MR. CARTA:  Everybody knows,


 1     basically, that there is no production of ethnic
 2     records in Canada, and we would fool ourselves if we
 3     were to believe it.
 4  235                  I would say, because first of all the
 5     market is very limited, it is very costly, and as an
 6     ethnic producer I would play anyway because ethnic
 7     programs are based locally all the time -- at least in
 8     radio it is a local matter, it is not a national
 9     matter.  We want to hear what is happening in the
10     community and if an artist within that community comes
11     out and produces a record or a CD we would be the first
12     ones really to ask because the community wants to hear
13     it -- if it is decent enough.  Most of the time we do
14     play a lot of bad recordings.  But, again, I want to go
15     back to the fact that it would be more valuable to the
16     ethnic communities if we entrench, eliminate the
17     Canadian content requirements because we can't compare
18     the commercial recording industry to the ethnic.
19  236                  Canada has a very vibrant English and
20     French recording industry -- Québec even more than the
21     rest of Canada -- but in regards to it, there is
22     nothing outside -- a few western Canadian Ukrainians
23     records produced that would categorize within the two
24     points needed to be accredited as a Canadian content. 
25     You would play very few old Italians, and maybe a


 1     couple of Filipino records or so within the Winnipeg
 2     market, but I would replace it with obliging ethnic
 3     broadcasters to have a Canadian programming content,
 4     meaning that instead of playing a bad recording, or
 5     playing over and over the same record all the time
 6     because it is Canadian, I would oblige ethnic
 7     broadcasters to have a minimum of Canadian programming
 8     content.
 9  237                  What I mean by that, it could be an
10     open line about health care, or politics, things
11     related to what is happening in Canada, basically, that
12     some ethnic programs they might run for an hour without
13     really --
14  238                  It happens across the country, some
15     programs generate very few content within that hour. 
16     So, I would prefer, as an ethnic broadcaster, that the
17     CRTC look to the fact there is no way that we can raise
18     the Canadian content on music, but I would look to the
19     program content more than to the music.
20                                                        1730
21  239                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  I think you wanted
22     to say something, Ms Pidhirnyj?
23  240                  MS PIDHIRNYJ:  I would be a very poor
24     poker player.
25     --- Laughter / Rires


 1  241                  I can't speak on behalf of other
 2     ethnic communities -- I think maybe others would be in
 3     a better position to do so -- but, certainly with
 4     respect to the Ukrainian-Canadian community, we have a
 5     very flourishing musical industry within the community. 
 6     Most of the CDs and so on that are produced, are
 7     actually produced out East, from very good Ukrainian
 8     ensembles and choirs and bands, and so on, in Toronto,
 9     in Montreal and in Western Canada.
10  242                  I think this is an opportunity and an
11     encouragement to Ukrainian ensembles and to Ukrainian
12     bands and orchestras, and so on, to produce, to have
13     the opportunity of having their music on the airwaves, 
14     perhaps not in prime time always, but on the airways,
15     and to have it heard across Canada.  I think it is a
16     promotional instrument for them.
17  243                  MR. CARTA:  If I may say something? 
18     That is basically what I say in my presentation, that
19     the only community, only language group that produces
20     enough recordings are the Ukrainians, and that is what
21     we make up the Canadian content really with the
22     Ukrainian-Canadian music.  That is the only language
23     that produces enough recordings.
24  244                  MR. DEMERS:  Could I just ask you --
25     So what you are saying, in practice, is not that you


 1     would replace recordings, for example, that you would
 2     do today -- in a Ukrainian, or German, or Italian, or
 3     another program -- you would not replace that recording
 4     by an English or French recording of Canadian origin, 
 5     you would replace it by spoken words or other --
 6  245                  MR. CARTA:  Always in third language.
 7  246                  MR. DEMERS:  Okay, thank you.
 8  247                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Any other comments
 9     about the availability of Canadian ethnic recordings
10     and what we should do about it?
11  248                  MS SZWALUK:  I agree that we do have
12     a lot of Ukrainian recordings, but I guess with Ukraine
13     that was non-independent until 1991, I know that our
14     seniors really enjoy getting the music from the Old
15     Country, because they haven't had that opportunity with
16     the domination of the Soviet Union, so for us it is a
17     new thing in the Ukrainian community in Canada to be
18     able to hear music that is being produced right now in
19     our homeland.
20  249                  So, for us, it is basically half the
21     Canadian content of people doing the recordings here
22     too, but I think we would like to also hear it on your
23     programs with the content coming from Ukraine too,
24     because of the fact that we didn't have the opportunity
25     before.


 1  250                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  What can we, as a
 2     Commission, do to encourage more recordings?  Nothing?
 3  251                  MR. CARTA:  What it is, basically,
 4     you can't really legislate, okay, we must record more
 5     ethnic records.  If there is no market, it is as simple
 6     as that, it is a futile exercise.
 7  252                  MR. PREISS:  We have also addressed
 8     that sort of issue, however, we feel that every ethnic
 9     group has its own responsibility for that aspect of it. 
10     The Ukrainians should be complimented on how they
11     managed to handled this.  We do have dance groups, we
12     do have recording artists in the German community, but
13     nothing that is that organized.
14  253                  Coming back to these militancy acts,
15     I think that the CRTC should realize it is not coming
16     from the older people, it is now coming from the
17     younger generations which, in fact, are beginning to
18     wake up and question these things.  This is where we
19     are coming from.
20  254                  MR. DEMERS:  Maybe, just on another
21     point, since we have Mr. Carta with us.  Your
22     programming being quite large in numbers as to the
23     language that you use, do you work that the content of
24     these programs -- with, in cooperation, or totally from
25     the cultural centres that represent these --


 1  255                  MR. CARTA:  As an ethnic broadcaster,
 2     you always try to be impartial because, like everywhere
 3     else, ethnic communities might have different
 4     associations which don't necessarily get along.  We
 5     employ for the major languages full-time producers and
 6     announcers, and they are quite well experienced, so we
 7     produce our own programming, in cooperation let's say
 8     with the Deutsch Welle in Germany, or RIE in Italy, or
 9     Hong Kong Television, so we produce our programming.
10  256                  Now, smaller language groups, they
11     are outside producers, but we are able, I mean with our 
12     own experience to control and to demand that certain
13     guidelines in terms of content are followed, but we
14     provide basically almost every ethnic programming.  It
15     resembles the conversion of radio with news, weather,
16     traffic, whatever, it is like the morning show, it is
17     exactly as you would expect on conventional radio.  You
18     have the news, headlines, major newscasts, interviews,
19     open lines, and everything.
20  257                  So, it serves really especially
21     newcomers, and I mentioned before Germans and
22     Ukrainians they are very well-integrated, but
23     throughout the years we have provided a great, great
24     service.  But now, the latest waive of immigrants are
25     the Filipinos -- about 40,000 people -- so our morning


 1     show is in Tagalog,  which is the Filipino language,
 2     and we provide basically news on the hour, or half
 3     hour, via satellite, or local open lines.  The base of
 4     an ethnic program must remain really information.  If
 5     it is good music and dance, fine, but you have to
 6     provide more than that, otherwise listeners will switch
 7     stations.
 8  258                  Thank you.
 9  259                  MR. DEMERS:  I don't know if it is a
10     question, Madam Chair.  Mr. Preiss raised a problem --
11     a situation, let's say -- with the cable operators in
12     the area.  Since it is a public meeting, have you, in
13     your view, is your approach with the cable operators --
14     not your negotiations, but your exchanges -- do you
15     consider them to be over, that there is no more
16     discussion possible?
17  260                  MR. PREISS:  No, not at all.  I think
18     that because of the political pressure -- you make up
19     your own mind.  I think they -- and I say in my package
20     over here that I will leave with you where you can read
21     the responses.  They have left a door open to giving us
22     that channel.  The only question which we have is not
23     for what price -- if it is going to be $14.95, what old
24     aged pensioner can add another $15 onto their cable
25     bill?  Not many people would want to take advantage of


 1     a service like that.
 2  261                  That is our greatest hesitation,
 3     because if you have one of those digital dishes, you
 4     can already get the service.  Also, if you have a large
 5     dish, you could get the service also -- free of charge,
 6     by the way.  So, we would like to have that service
 7     included in one of the other packages that they have,
 8     and I think that will be the only fair way of treating
 9     that.
10  262                  But, since we are on the topic, when
11     in fact -- this is Mr. Kerr, Vice President and General
12     Manager of VIDEON, addressed our questionnaire as to
13     content, this is his answer here:
14                            "In your letter, you also
15                            expressed concerns about
16                            stereotyping in television
17                            programming.  As previously
18                            indicated, many of the specialty
19                            channels we offer must carry
20                            signals.  In addition, VIDEON
21                            does not determine the content
22                            of individuals programs offered
23                            by the specialty channels of
24                            broadcasters.  Television
25                            programmers appreciate feedback


 1                            from their viewers.  I encourage
 2                            you to contact the specialty
 3                            channels and broadcasters
 4                            directly if you have concerns
 5                            about their programming.  I will
 6                            be pleased to provide contact
 7                            names and phone numbers if you
 8                            require". (As read)
 9  263                  Well, we requested that but I can
10     just imagine another 10-year battle with some provider
11     to say perhaps and then to reconsider, basically
12     changing their policy and not become racists -- because
13     that is what it actually amounts to.
14  264                  What we would like to see is perhaps
15     the CRTC to be a little bit more explicit as to a code
16     of conduct by the cable providers or by the media
17     providers that, in fact, tolerance should be encouraged
18     and basically that should be the policy of the
19     government of this country concerning the multicultural
20     nature of our nation.
21  265                  But, is it true that the CRTC has no
22     authority over these so-called signals that they -- I
23     guess they buy these things in packages?  From what
24     source?
25  266                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  In terms of


 1     content, yes, there are certain conditions that any
 2     network has to live up to in terms of gender
 3     portrayals, and issues such as that, and that is why I
 4     was asking you on the portrayal issue if you felt there
 5     should be a positive onus in terms of multicultural
 6     portrayal, because there are not standards on that,
 7     there are only negative standards saying, you can't
 8     show discrimination against somebody.  So, that was
 9     where my question was coming from.
10  267                  So, there are certain standards that
11     they normally have to adhere to.
12  268                  MR. PREISS:  Are they actually
13     adhering?
14  269                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  I don't know about
15     the other cases you are describing, but there is -- in
16     terms of broadcasters -- there is a panel that will
17     review any complaints that you have.
18  270                  MR. PREISS:  But, you see, he admits
19     that there is a problem, but he says, well, it is not
20     my fault because I have to buy these packages from
21     somewhere else, for someone else, you better talk to
22     them, or have a fight with them, or a legal encounter
23     with them before I can change anything that I do, at my
24     cable company.  Now there is a problem.
25  271                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  There is also a


 1     Cable Standards Council.  However, in terms of anything
 2     that they would buy, or that they wouldn't produce
 3     directly, I would think they would have a problem being
 4     responsible for it.  So it would be the community
 5     channel that would be responsible for.
 6  272                  MR. PREISS:  Well, I would rather
 7     think so, but the impression that I have from that
 8     letter -- and you can read it for yourself -- is the
 9     contrary, but we have requested these contacts, we will
10     write letters, and will see what the answers are, we
11     will forward the information to you.
12  273                  MS SZWALUK:  I have a fast question. 
13     When you are saying if there is a complaint, we can
14     send in our complaint to who?
15  274                  MR. BATSTONE:  You can always
16     complain to the CRTC, if you see programming which you
17     think is in violation of the Act or the Regulations. 
18     As Commissioner Cram has mentioned, there are a number
19     sort of standards set out in the Act and Regulations. 
20     In many cases, broadcasters belong to an organization
21     which is being referred to here -- the Canadian
22     Broadcast Standards Council.  In that case, your
23     complain would be referred to them, they would look at
24     it.  But, yes, you can complain to the CRTC.
25  275                  MS SZWALUK:  Well, that is


 1     interesting, because a few years ago when the
 2     Ukrainian-Canadian Congress did complain in regards to
 3     a 60 Minutes program that portrayed Ukrainians very
 4     similar to the same situation as the Germans, and the
 5     response that came back was very disappointing because
 6     the answer we received back was, well just go back to
 7     the 60 Minutes program and complain to them.
 8  276                  So, as far as we were concerned,
 9     there was nothing that looked like the panel had even
10     reviewed our letter or our concerns.
11  277                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  To whom did you
12     complain?
13  278                  MS SZWALUK:  To the CRTC.  That is
14     going back a few years ago.  So that is why I was just
15     questioning when you were mentioning about this panel,
16     that they review all these things.  Well, we were
17     disappointed in the response.
18  279                  MS PIDHIRNYJ:  And that is why we are
19     suggesting that an ombudsman position be created that
20     would not only look at individual complaints, but also
21     complaints with -- if there are any local problems like
22     that, that an organization is having with a company in
23     terms of introducing programming, there are
24     difficulties --  perhaps that ombudsman could negotiate
25     or be a mediator in that kind of a case as well.


 1                                                        1750
 2  280                  MR. PRIESS:  Our Ukrainian friends
 3     have just taken the words right out of my mouth because
 4     that is exactly the sort of position that we are 
 5     beginning to formulate and to suggest because then you
 6     wouldn't have to go through all this stuff, you could
 7     go directly to the ombudsman and let him look at the
 8     facts, and let him make a decision -- or her.
 9  281                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  There is on cable
10     complaints, the Cable Standards Council also, and that
11     includes access to cable, and it also includes some of
12     Mr. Audino's problem with the terms of access to the
13     community channel.  But, of course, all the Standards
14     Councils and our offices, follow the law and what 
15     standards that have been put in place.
16  282                  MS PIDHIRNYJ:  If I may?
17  283                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.
18  284                  MS PIDHIRNYJ:  I think most
19     governments are now gravitating towards one window
20     shopping to make it easier, to facilitate contact with
21     government bodies and agencies, and so on, and not have
22     to go through these various hoops.  I think for ethnic
23     communities, it would be a great service to have one
24     point of contact rather than trying to determine which
25     body to go to and whom to contact.


 1  285                  MR. PREISS:  All these ethnic groups,
 2     you have to realize -- the German Society which has
 3     been here over a hundred years -- we are all
 4     volunteers, we don't get paid for this, it is all
 5     volunteer work.  It is after I get finished there, when
 6     I should be home enjoying my kids, and I am here
 7     presenting on behalf of our members, and that goes on
 8     from week to week, and I am sure that everybody else
 9     involved in any other ethnic group, in any other
10     organization, has the same problem.
11  286                  Certainly, to ease our way of
12     expressing our points of view, an ombudsman would
13     certainly be of great benefit.
14  287                  MR. DEMERS:  I was just going to add,
15     since we are here, that there are license renewals of
16     all broadcasting undertakings, there are public notices
17     of such in the newspapers in your area.  I am not
18     inviting, by no means, but I think it is important that
19     I say -- I was counsel of the CRTC 30 years ago, so I
20     have a kind of a moral obligation to say that -- that
21     you could react to such public notices by commenting on
22     programming that may be of concern, or may be that you
23     consider very good to your community.  That is also
24     possible.
25  288                  MR. CARTA:  Can I make a comment?  I


 1     have already spoken too much, I know.
 2  289                  This is absolutely true, but the
 3     limited resources of a cultural group -- every penny
 4     that we do get to upgrade our building or to build the
 5     new Italian Centre -- I know they are still
 6     fund-raising, because I stuck my nose in there, and
 7     Frank Fermentino is a good friend of mine, who was a
 8     driving force behind there too.
 9  290                  What I am trying to say here is, yes,
10     we can make these presentations, okay, but we can't
11     hire high-priced lawyers like they would -- and they
12     certainly have the resources, countless millions of
13     dollars behind them.  Just how much headway will we
14     make?  That is what I am wondering.  Unless, of course,
15     the government, the CRTC, is willing to help us fund
16     legal action against some of these cable companies.
17  291                  Then, by all means, believe me, I
18     would get involved 100 per cent.
19  292                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Let me say a few
20     things.  Number one, we renew Canadian networks and
21     Canadian cable companies.  We do not have anything to
22     do with licensing of ABC, NBC, AB whatever, Disney, FOX
23     and so they are carried on cable companies, and we
24     allow that, but we have no power over stopping their
25     licence.


 1  293                  As to costs, unfortunately, I have
 2     spent my last 20 years being a consumer advocate, and
 3     there are no costs under the Broadcasting Act that are
 4     allowed.  There have certainly been a lot of requests 
 5     that the Act be changed to allow consumers to be given
 6     costs in broadcasting proceedings.  They are in
 7     telecommunications proceedings, but not in
 8     broadcasting.
 9  294                  And if you wish to add your voice to
10     consumers' movements to change that, please do so.
11  295                  MR. PREISS:  Consider it done.
12  296                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  I have nothing else
13     to say, Mr. Demers has nothing else to say.  Does
14     anybody else have anything else they wish to say?
15  297                  Well, I want to thank all of you for
16     coming, and I really appreciate -- and we really
17     appreciate -- all of your input.  I have to say that we
18     consider the lack of resources when we do talk to
19     volunteer organizations, and we certainly value your
20     input far more because you are not hired guns.  This is
21     what you really care about.
22  298                  Thank you.
23     --- Whereupon the hearing concluded at 1755 /
24         L'audience se termine à 1755

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