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Providing Content in Canada's Official Languages

Please note that the Official Languages Act requires that government publications be available in both official languages.

In order to meet some of the requirements under this Act, the Commission's transcripts will therefore be bilingual as to their covers, the listing of CRTC members and staff attending the hearings, and the table of contents.

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded verbatim transcript and, as such, is transcribed in either of the official languages, depending on the language spoken by the participant at the hearing.



                       SUBJECT / SUJET:

                       PUBLIC HEARING ON
                     AUDIENCE PUBLIQUE SUR

HELD AT:                                TENUE À:

Holiday Inn                             Holiday Inn
370 King Street                         370, rue King
Toronto, Ontario                        Toronto (Ontario)

February 2, 1999                        Le 2 février 1999

                          Volume  2
tel: 613-521-0703         StenoTran         fax: 613-521-7668


In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages
Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be
bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members
and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded
verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in
either of the official languages, depending on the language
spoken by the participant at the public hearing.


Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues
officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront
bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des
membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience
publique ainsi que la table des matières.

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu
textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée
et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues
officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le
participant à l'audience publique.

tel: 613-521-0703         StenoTran         fax: 613-521-7668

                 Canadian Radio-television and
                 Telecommunications Commission

              Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des
                télécommunications canadiennes

                  Transcript / Transcription

              Public Hearing / Audience publique

            Third Language and Ethnic Programming /
       Programmation multilingue et à caractère ethnique


M. Wilson                               Chairperson / Présidente
S. Langford                             Commissioner / Conseiller


D. Rhéaume                              Secretary / Secrétaire
D. Rhéaume                              Legal Counsel/Conseillers
M. York                                 Analyst/Analyste

                          Volume  2
tel: 613-521-0703         StenoTran         fax: 613-521-7668



Presentation by / Présentation par:                       

Mr. Sundar Raj                                             98

Karas Associates                                          108

Chinese Canadian National Council                         113

Canadian Ethnocultural Council                            129

Ethnic Council of Arts                                    138

South Asian Journalists' Club                             151

Canadian Hispanic Congress                                159

PolyMedia                                                 168

Hellenic-Canadian Federation of Ontario                   187

Polish-Canadian Women's Federation                        192

CJMR Radio                                                203

Italian Canadians, Toronto District                       214

Cultural News Agency                                      223

TLN Television                                            230

Laura Productions                                         241

CHIN-FM                                                   243

CHIN RADIO/TV International                               249

Mr. Sher Singh                                            255

Canadian Ethnic Journalists' and Writers' Club            263

CHIN RADIO/TV International                               268

Macedonian Heritage TV program on CFMT-TV                 274

Catholic Children's Aid Society                           279

Ms Nellie Pedro                                           280

Mr. Bob Cousins                                           291

tel: 613-521-0703         StenoTran         fax: 613-521-7668



Fairchild Media                                           305

Mr. Hanny Hassan                                          313

Ms Claudia Lopez                                          323

KVC Communications Group                                  326

Ms Zelda Young                                            332

CIRV Radio                                                334

Mr. Farook Hossain Kahn                                   344

Ms Estela Cuenca                                          349

Ms Krystyna Piotrowski and Ms Isabella Walicht            357

Rev. Adolfo Puricelli                                     370

tel: 613-521-0703         StenoTran         fax: 613-521-7668


 1                        Toronto, Ontario / Toronto (Ontario)
 2     --- Upon resuming on Tuesday, February 2, 1999,
 3         at 1600 / L'audience reprend le mardi
 4         2 février 1999, à 1600
 5  392                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Ladies and
 6     gentlemen, I would like to ask you to take your seats
 7     and we will get under way.
 8  393                  Welcome to day two of the CRTC's
 9     public consultations on our ethnic broadcasting policy. 
10     My name is Martha Wilson.  I am the Ontario Regional
11     Commissioner and with me today is Stuart Langford,
12     Commissioner.
13  394                  I would like to introduce the people
14     at the head table and review some of the housekeeping
15     items that I went over yesterday with our participants. 
16     For those of you who were here yesterday you will
17     forgive me if it is repetitive, but I think it is
18     useful since we have so many people here today to
19     review those comments.
20  395                  On my far left is Diane Rhéaume.  She
21     will be acting as the Secretary of this process today. 
22     On my far left at the front of the table is Donald
23     Rhéaume.  He is our legal advisor and on my right is
24     Morag York, who is an analyst with the CRTC.
25  396                  Our intention today is to have the


 1     session run until all of the participants who have
 2     registered to be heard today are heard.  The notice I
 3     believe said that we would go from 4 p.m. to 10 p.m. 
 4     It is possible that we will go later than that,
 5     depending on how many people appear today.  We have had
 6     some people from yesterday reschedule, so we have quite
 7     a full agenda.
 8  397                  To ensure that all of the parties
 9     here have an opportunity to make a presentation, we
10     would ask you that you limit your comments to 10
11     minutes and we are going to be quite strict about
12     enforcing this.  Again, just to ensure that we hear
13     from everyone.  Don't forget that if you have points
14     that you feel you have not raised with us during this
15     public consultation that you would like to forward to
16     us, you can do so in writing by March 4, 1999.
17  398                  We may wish to ask you questions
18     following your presentation, but because of the large
19     number of participants it is quite possible that we may
20     not ask you questions.  The most important thing for us
21     is to hear what you have to say.  If we don't ask you
22     questions, I would ask you not to interpret that as a
23     lack of interest on our part.  We are very interested
24     in hearing what you have to say and it is a very
25     important part of helping us make a decision that will


 1     be useful and applicable to everyone.
 2  399                  As I have said earlier, the
 3     proceedings will be transcribed and the transcript will
 4     form part of the record upon which the entire
 5     Commission -- actually, not the entire Commission, but
 6     the panel will make its decision.  So that the people
 7     responsible for this task can provide an accurate
 8     record, I would ask that when you speak you press the
 9     small white button on the microphone in front of you
10     and this activates the microphone and it is indicated
11     by the red light.
12  400                  For those of you who prefer to submit
13     your comments in writing, comment cards are available
14     at the back of the room and from the Secretary, Diane
15     Rhéaume.  If you have any comments you would like to
16     pass on, just write them on a card, sign it and give it
17     to the Secretary before the end of the session.
18  401                  Finally, I would just like to review
19     quickly what our timetable will be for today.  We
20     learned a few lessons from yesterday, our first day. 
21     We are going to sit today from 4:00 to 6 p.m.  At that
22     point we will take a half hour break for dinner and so
23     that you can have a bit of a break as well.  We will
24     reconvene at 6:30.  We will sit until 8:30.  We will
25     take a 15-minute break, reconvene at 8:45 and go


 1     probably until the end at that point.
 2  402                  So, having said all of that, I would
 3     ask our Secretary to call the first party.
 4  403                  MS RHÉAUME:  Our first speaker is Mr.
 5     Sundar Raj.
 7  404                  MR. RAJ:  Good afternoon, ladies and
 8     gentlemen.
 9  405                  Commissioners, ladies and gentlemen,
10     my name is Sundar Raj.  I am a marketing and business
11     consultant and I appear before you this evening for a
12     number of reasons.
13  406                  As a Canadian I am interested in and
14     concerned about the long-term impacts of media on all
15     segments of our society.
16  407                  Prior to coming to Canada in 1971, I
17     was fortunate enough to have had a choice as to where I
18     wanted to live and where I could live.  I chose to live
19     in Canada as I was indeed, and I am even now,
20     fascinated with the concept of the cultural mosaic
21     philosophy as against the melting pot concept.
22  408                  I am actively associated with the
23     Flemingdon Neighbourhood Services as a member of its
24     board and through this organization with the
25     Thorncliffe Park Neighbourhood Services.  Both these


 1     community service organization serve two high density
 2     and ethnically diverse areas of Toronto.  Both are now
 3     the favoured starting points for those who come from
 4     around the world for a varied number of reasons to
 5     settle in Canada.  Nor many of them speak or understand
 6     either of our official languages.
 7  409                  I am an active Rotarian and Past
 8     President of the Don Mills Rotary Club.  Don Mills in
 9     Toronto is another community that has undergone major
10     changes in its ethnic composition over the past 25
11     years.
12  410                  I have had the pleasure of seeing
13     this beautiful land coast to coast many times and have
14     interacted socially and on business with a wide range
15     of Canadians from different ethnocultural and
16     linguistic backgrounds.  I have thus come to understand
17     and to appreciate in my own way what makes this country
18     unique in the world.
19  411                  I am a consultant to Asian Television
20     Network International of Newmarket, Ontario, which is
21     licensed by the Commission to provide the first and
22     only 24 hour a day, seven days a week, channel to serve
23     the needs of the South Asian community across Canada. 
24     I have had the privilege of appearing before this
25     Commission in 1996 as a member of the ATN team.


 1  412                  Having established my credentials, I
 2     wish to bring to your attention my observations on the
 3     following:
 4  413                  One, the adequacy of the present
 5     broadcasting system from an ethnocultural perspective;
 6  414                  Two, the urgent need for a new policy
 7     framework to better serve the needs of the fast growing
 8     ethnocultural communities.
 9  415                  Let me pause briefly to highlight one
10     of the biggest challenges faced by non-English or
11     non-French speaking immigrants to our country.  It is
12     the challenge of cultural isolation.  This is more so
13     in the case of senior citizens and women with young
14     non-school going children.  They spend a major part of
15     their working days alone or with toddlers within the
16     confines of their homes.  Their world outside the home
17     is also restricted to a few and far in between
18     community events.  They are also heavily dependent on
19     the meagre social services provided by our resource
20     constrained service agencies.
21  416                  In the above-referred group, the
22     problem is more acute among immigrants from the
23     non-traditional sources such as Asia and Africa.  While
24     Asian immigrants have settled in Canada in substantial
25     numbers since the late sixties, it is only in the last


 1     eight to ten years that people from countries such as
 2     Sri Lanka, for example, have arrived in Canada to form
 3     their own communities.  Same is the case with people
 4     from countries such as Ethiopia or Somalia or Ghana. 
 5     All these people live in the Flemingdon area.  I know
 6     this as a director of the Flemingdon Centre.
 7  417                  These communities do not have the
 8     benefits of social and organizational structures that
 9     are provided by long established and well-managed
10     churches or religious institutions.
11  418                  Modern travel makes it possible for
12     people to move from one region of the world to the
13     other in a matter of hours.  Though this physical
14     transportation is achieved in a matter of hours, the
15     cultural and social adjustments take many years. 
16     People from far away lands have thus been transplanted
17     to Canada within hours and here they re with little or
18     no understanding of our languages or culture or social
19     and societal values.  For these people it is a delight
20     to hear a familiar sound or see a picture that they can
21     recognize.  It is like seeing an oasis in a vast
22     desert.
23  419                  It is with this background that I ask
24     the moot question:  How well is our current system of
25     television networks and radio stations serving our


 1     diverse needs?
 2  420                  I wish to further illustrate this
 3     point with a personal example.  In the mid-seventies,
 4     my mother spent a few years with us here in Canada. 
 5     Even though she enjoyed watching some of the programs
 6     on the English-language channels, the only ones that
 7     were available in those days, she always looked forward
 8     to the Saturday morning 30-minute program that my good
 9     friend and much respected pioneer of South Asian
10     television programming, Shan Chandrasekar, used to
11     broadcast.  Our Saturdays would not be complete without
12     this 30 minutes of South Asian programming.  How I wish
13     that those days we had the Asian Television channel on
14     a daily basis.
15  421                  However, I should hasten to point out
16     an ironic situation that exists now.  Even though the
17     South Asian channel was licensed by the Commission two
18     years ago, many of us who want this service and are
19     prepared to pay the premium price for the channel are
20     unable to do so because of the cable companies'
21     inability to provide this channel.  Many of us who live
22     in high-rise buildings cannot have the satellite dish
23     and are dependent totally on the cable service
24     providers' decision on the menu of options offered to
25     subscribers.


 1  422                  I live in what can be called a luxury
 2     high rise in Toronto which is completely boxed in. 
 3     There is no balcony and the building authorities are
 4     extremely friendly and favourable, but they cannot give
 5     me the channels that I want because the cable company
 6     decides what I watch.
 7  423                  Furthermore, what is intriguing is
 8     that within the Greater Toronto Area, demographics
 9     clearly illustrate that South Asians form the second
10     largest minority group after the Chinese community. 
11     Yet, two years have gone by since the Commission
12     granted a licence for the South Asian channel and we
13     are yet to see its benefits.
14  424                  This is an example of good policies
15     not yielding their full benefits to the targeted
16     groups.  Cable carriers and other distributors must be
17     an integral part of the implementation process in the
18     CRTC's decision process.  Without such fully integrated
19     implementation programs, good policies of the
20     Commission come to yield little or no real benefit to
21     the consumers.
22  425                  At this stage I wish to move on to
23     another factor that needs to be recognized in the
24     framework of a third language programming policy. 
25     There is an interesting social trend emerging in


 1     Canada.  We generally assume that language and
 2     ethnicity are correlated and, therefore, as an example,
 3     we assume that people of Portuguese origin are the only
 4     ones interested in Portuguese programs.  While this
 5     pattern fits the conventional wisdom, it is important
 6     to notice that it is somewhat limiting.
 7  426                  Today, because of the many
 8     cross-cultural influences that the younger generations
 9     are exposed to in urban areas, such as Toronto and
10     Vancouver, the younger generations have cultural and
11     artistic interests outside and beyond their own ethnic
12     origins.  People of non-South Asian background have
13     often commented to me that they enjoy watching a South
14     Asian program on the TV or attending a South Asian
15     cultural program in their community.
16  427                  When I have a few moments to spare, I
17     surf the channels to watch a Ukrainian dance or a
18     Scottish jig or an Italian opera.  My son, who is 23
19     years old, has a job that needs good language skills in
20     both English and French.  He often times tunes into a
21     French channel to upgrade his colloquial French.  I
22     have often heard people of this age group talking of
23     their plans to acquire new languages such as Spanish,
24     Japanese or Chinese -- languages that one does not
25     normally associate with their ethnic backgrounds.


 1  428                  A dynamic third language programming
 2     policy will have a crucial impact in the future much
 3     beyond the targeted ethnocultural groups.  Its impact
 4     will be on our society as a whole because of the large
 5     scale social integration that is taking place as never
 6     before in our history.  As barriers are coming down
 7     fast, it is important to provide outlets for the art,
 8     culture and talent that exist in different ethnic
 9     segments to reach out to one another and enjoy the rich
10     diverse heritage as a part and parcel of the overall
11     Canadian mosaic.
12  429                  A dynamic third language policy will
13     have a long term impact on Canada's global image and
14     aspirations.  We are a trading nation intent on
15     promoting and pursuing trade opportunities around the
16     world.  Our foreign policy is committed to promote
17     peace and understanding.  We tackle ecological and
18     environmental challenges around the world.  We help
19     countries affected by natural disasters.  Our ability
20     to pursue these noble objectives in a global context
21     will be further enhanced when we have a cadre of young
22     men and women sensitive to and well attuned to the
23     cultural needs of other countries around the world.
24  430                  I can further highlight many of the
25     benefits of a dynamic third language policy.  However,


 1     in the interest of time and brevity, let me at this
 2     stage pose a question.  Should third-language channels
 3     be made available on a premium pay for service basis or
 4     as a part of the basic cable package?  There are
 5     obviously a number of other issues that need to be
 6     considered in this context and solutions are neither
 7     simple nor easy to find.
 8  431                  Finally, let us evolve a dynamic
 9     third language programming policy that meets the needs
10     of our fast changing society.  Let this new policy take
11     us all to the 21st century and thew millennium. 
12     However, let us proceed with caution and protect the
13     third-language channels that are now in operation. 
14     These channels must be allowed to grow and to attain
15     their full potential.  Let us nourish the many talents
16     that exist within our shores before we open the gates
17     for unlimited access to mere importers of foreign
18     programs in third languages.  Let those who took the
19     initiatives in Canada benefit from their enterprises
20     and let Canadian talent in third language programming
21     and program delivery thrive.
22  432                  That concludes my presentation. 
23     Merci beaucoup.
24  433                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner
25     Langford has a question for you.


 1  434                  COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thank you
 2     very much for that.  I must say that had you been here
 3     last night you would have heard a number of people make
 4     some of the same comments you made with regard to
 5     dealing with landlords and trying to get them to
 6     lighten up and let them put satellite dishes on their
 7     balconies and be a little more open to perhaps a
 8     different cable provider.
 9  435                  Do you know whether these concerns
10     are being brought to the provincial government?  I
11     don't want to sound like I am passing the buck here,
12     but landlord and tenant law is a provincial
13     responsibility.  Do you know whether the people who are
14     speaking out, and I should have asked this last night I
15     suppose and if you don't know that's fine, but do you
16     know whether there is some pressure being brought at
17     the provincial level as well?
18  436                  MR. RAJ:  Commissioner, not to my
19     knowledge because one of the problems that we need to
20     recognize in the context of your question is not many
21     people have the time or the other resources to follow
22     through.  When I phone downstairs to my management
23     office and they say, no, you cannot have a dish, it's
24     against the by-laws of the building, that ends my
25     enthusiasm for acquiring this new technology.


 1  437                  COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Well, keep
 2     the pressure on us, but look to Queen's Park a little
 3     as well.  I think maybe with a pincer movement maybe we
 4     can move this along a little.
 5  438                  Thanks very much.
 6  439                  MR. RAJ:  Thank you.
 7  440                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 8     much, Mr. Raj.
 9  441                  MS RHÉAUME:  Our next speaker is Mr.
10     Sergio Karas of Karas Associates.
12  442                  MR. KARAS:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
13  443                  My name is Sergio Karas.  I am a
14     barrister and solicitor, a lawyer here in Toronto.  I
15     practice in the area of immigration law.  I am here as
16     a private citizen, but also because I have a personal
17     interest in the matter.  I am immigrant myself.  My
18     first language was not English.  My first language is
19     Spanish and I was born in Buenos Aires, Argentina.
20  444                  I have been in Canada for over 18
21     years and I was fortunate enough to attend university,
22     York University and Osgoode Hall law school here in
23     Toronto, so I received all my post-secondary education
24     in Canada.
25  445                  I am also very active in the question


 1     of ethnic media because I write in ethnic newspapers on
 2     a regular basis, both here and in the United States.  I
 3     am also a frequent guest in different programs of
 4     different ethnic groups to inform people on immigration
 5     issues.  So my comments will be of a practical nature
 6     more than anything else and based on my personal
 7     experience on the matter.
 8  446                  I am also a director of the Jewish
 9     Immigrant Aid Service, so I am very active in the
10     community in assisting immigrants.  My office basically
11     handles cases of all ethnic groups.
12  447                  I think that you are faced with a
13     basic dichotomy here, a basic dilemma, whether or not
14     there should be more Canadian local content or it
15     should be more internationalized.  Whilst I am a very
16     big sympathizer of the idea that people should be able
17     to watch whatever they please and I don't care really
18     what it comes from, I am a believer in freedom of
19     choice as far as programming is concerned.  So, if
20     anybody wants to get a satellite and watch, I don't
21     know, a cricket match, they are welcome to do so. 
22     Whereas if anybody wants to watch the local news they
23     are welcome to do so too.
24  448                  However, I think that the role of the
25     local stations or stations that are carried on cable


 1     that cater to specific ethnic groups should
 2     nevertheless address those ethnic groups.  For example,
 3     my personal experience indicates to me that people do
 4     rely to a great extent to get Canadian information from
 5     those programs that they see from time to time.  They
 6     expect those programs to have accurate, reliable
 7     information that they can depend on.
 8  449                  I am a frequent guest on certain talk
 9     shows for different cable stations and I am privileged
10     to handle calls, for example, from people.  On occasion
11     we receive calls from Edmonton, from Calgary, from
12     Montreal, Toronto and people feel somewhat
13     disconnected, particularly those who are living in
14     smaller communities where their own ethnic group is not
15     so prevalent.
16  450                  I think it is very easy to talk about
17     ethnic programming for large groups -- large ethnic
18     groups in, for example, major cities such as Toronto,
19     Montreal or Vancouver where they are a very high
20     percentage of the population.  For example, if we talk
21     about Spanish-speaking people, since I am one I will
22     talk about that.  If we talk about Spanish-speaking
23     people in Toronto, there is a very sizeable group,
24     approximately 250,000.  However, there are, I am told,
25     around half a million Spanish-speaking people


 1     throughout Canada, but if you live in a place such as
 2     Calgary, for example, or such as a smaller city, there
 3     are not as many.
 4  451                  So you come to expect to have that
 5     program in the local television station or in the cable
 6     television station to handle local questions or things
 7     that are of your interest.  A lot of people rely on
 8     ethnic programming for their information.  For some
 9     people this is their only source of information.
10  452                  In my own particular field,
11     immigration law, every time we have a program on any
12     ethnic channel we are bombarded with phone calls
13     because people feel disconnected and this is a way that
14     they can prevent their own alienation from the rest of
15     the Canadian mainstream.
16  453                  Unfortunately, some groups are a
17     little more disadvantaged than others.  For some
18     people, for example, my friend who just spoke before
19     referred to South Asians, well, a lot of South Asians
20     have English as their language of instruction. 
21     Whereas, for example, Spanish-speaking people they
22     don't.  So they rely more on the ethnic programming
23     that they are expecting to hear.
24  454                  There are specific needs also that
25     have to be addressed and cannot be addressed elsewhere. 


 1     People rely on those programs as they are a source of
 2     information that they really cannot find elsewhere.
 3  455                  It is also important that there
 4     should be Canada-wide coverage, that cable stations
 5     carry those programs without additional charges, and
 6     that a real concerned effort be made to procure
 7     corporate sponsorship of programs which in some groups
 8     is sorely lacking.
 9  456                  I tell you, every time I turn on the
10     TV I don't see any major corporations sponsoring ethnic
11     programming, except for certain groups because,
12     obviously, there is a critical mass in their own
13     market.  But I think there has to be some way, through
14     tax credits perhaps or through some sort of incentive
15     to promote corporations to provide that critical
16     advertising for those stations.  There should also be a
17     duty from the part of those stations to carry local
18     news, for example, because people do come to expect
19     that.
20  457                  So, those are my comments and I thank
21     you very, very much.  They are intended to be of a
22     practical nature based on my own experience.  I will be
23     happy to answer any questions you may have.
24  458                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much
25     for your contribution, Mr. Karas.


 1  459                  MR. KARAS:  Thank you.
 2  460                  MS RHÉAUME:  Our next presentation is
 3     by Mr. Jonas Ma of the Chinese Canadian National
 4     Council.
 6  461                  MR. MA:  Thank you, Madam Chair. 
 7     Bonjour.
 8  462                  My name is Jonas Ma.  I am the
 9     Executive Director of the Chinese Canadian National
10     Council.  The Chinese Canadian National Council is a
11     national umbrella organization with 30 chapters across
12     the nation.  Our mandate is to promote the equal rights
13     and full participation of Chinese Canadians at all
14     levels of society.
15  463                  Our input on ethnic programming is
16     principled on the promotion of equality -- the value
17     enshrined in the Canadian Charter of Rights and
18     Freedoms -- through encouraging accessibility to
19     services, diversity in programs and anti-discrimination
20     programming.  While our input may be applicable to the
21     situation of ethnic programming in general, it is
22     principally focused on ethnic programming for the
23     Chinese Canadian population.
24  464                  Let's start by looking at some of the
25     demographics that are changing.  According to the 1996


 1     census, visible minorities now make up over 11 per cent
 2     of Canada's population.  Chinese Canadians which number
 3     over 920,000 in Canada are the largest visible minority
 4     in Canada, making up about 26 per cent of this
 5     population.  The majority of Chinese Canadians can be
 6     found in Ontario and B.C.  We represent 8.5 per cent of
 7     the population of Toronto and 16 per cent of the
 8     population of Vancouver.
 9  465                  In Canada, the mother tongue of over
10     16 per cent of our population is a non-official
11     language, with Chinese holding the largest percentage
12     in that group, about 11 per cent or over 715,000.
13  466                  Within the Chinese Canadian
14     population itself there are also demographic changes. 
15     In recent years there is a large influx of immigrants
16     who are from the People's Republic of China, who speak
17     Mandarin, compared to the last couple of decades when
18     Chinese immigrants were mostly from Hong Kong and
19     Taiwan.
20  467                  In light of the changing demographics
21     of Canadian society, let me now introduce Ms Paula Jong
22     who is a member of our National Executive to point out
23     some of the concerns that we have in ethnic and third
24     language broadcasting policy.
25  468                  MS JONG:  First, I am going to


 1     address accessibility to services.  Even though ethnic
 2     programming is becoming increasingly important, the
 3     provision of current services is dependent on the
 4     private market.  Those who do not subscribe to cable
 5     television often do not have access to services. 
 6     Viewers have to pay additional subscription fees in
 7     order to gain full access to the available third
 8     language specialty television stations.  Third language
 9     radio stations, which rely on advertising revenue, only
10     operate in big cities like Toronto and Vancouver, where
11     it is financially viable to do so.  Geographically
12     isolated communities usually have no or limited access
13     to these services, except for those who can afford to
14     purchase the necessary technology to increase their
15     access.
16  469                  Without public subsidies, access to
17     ethnic programming will continue to be limited to those
18     who have sufficient resources.  moreover, with the
19     government moving towards privatization, ethnic
20     programming which is not profitable, but serves an
21     important social purpose, will be eliminated.  For
22     example, community channels which can carry ethnic
23     programming have been sold off to specialty channels,
24     like the Golf Channel.
25  470                  Now I am going to move on to


 1     diversity in programs.  Currently, ethnic programming
 2     for Chinese Canadian communities is provided mainly
 3     through ethnic broadcasting and third language
 4     specialty stations, in the form of Type A programs. 
 5     Their programs mainly focus on providing viewers with a
 6     link or connection to their countries of origin; they
 7     provide social, cultural and political information
 8     about those countries.
 9  471                  To this end, they are serving the
10     Chinese Canadian communities whose countries of origin
11     are Hong Kong and Taiwan very well.  However, there are
12     very few, if any, programs that are produced for
13     Chinese Canadians from other countries of origin, for
14     example, those who are from the People's Republic of
15     China.  moreover, the majority of the non-news
16     television programs and the music on radio are overseas
17     productions which are imported by the stations.
18  472                  Besides providing viewers with a link
19     to their countries of origin, ethnic third language
20     broadcasting stations also serve to familiarize viewers
21     with Canadian social and political issues, and to
22     facilitate participation and integration into Canadian
23     society.  While there are set requirement on Canadian
24     content for those stations, there are not any
25     requirements or guidelines on the specific types of


 1     Canadian content programs.  Moreover, more programs are
 2     needed in areas which concern the social, political and
 3     cross-cultural aspects of Canadian society, programs
 4     which are educational and informational, especially
 5     those which provide practical information to assist the
 6     orientation and integration of immigrants in Canadian
 7     society.
 8  473                  Types C and D programs are rare among
 9     the ethnic programs which target Chinese Canadian
10     communities.  Such programs are important as they
11     foster cultural heritage and provide a sense of
12     community and identity, especially among those who are
13     second, third or fourth generation Chinese Canadians,
14     those who have not fully retained the use of the
15     Chinese language.
16  474                  Type E programs are very minimal in
17     both mainstream and ethnic broadcasting stations,
18     although they are important in promoting
19     multiculturalism and cross-cultural and inter-cultural
20     understanding among the Canadian population as a whole.
21  475                  Finally, I am going to address
22     anti-discriminatory programming.  The content of ethnic
23     programs is at times discriminatory.  It is racist,
24     sexist and homophobic and discriminates against those
25     with disabilities.  Commentators are often ill-equipped


 1     to provide bias-free and neutral information and there
 2     is not a balance of different viewpoints.
 3  476                  Currently, the CRTC does not have an
 4     effective monitoring and complaint system in place for
 5     ethnic broadcast.
 6  477                  Based on the above submission we have
 7     several recommendations.  First, an increased
 8     commitment in governmental support and funding to
 9     ethnic programming, more specifically, in the
10     improvement of accessibility to services, and in the
11     development of informational, educational and
12     cross-cultural programming, as the private sector
13     cannot be depended on to meet the needs of ethnic
14     communities.
15  478                  Second, clear guidelines on the
16     specific types of Canadian content programs broadcast
17     by ethnic stations, to ensure diversity and that the
18     needs of various Chinese Canadian communities are being
19     met.
20  479                  Third, guidelines on minimum
21     requirements of Type C, D and E programs for both
22     ethnic and mainstream stations.
23  480                  Fourth, expanding the provision of
24     and access to Type C, D and E programs -- for example,
25     through time slots on mainstream stations, individual


 1     production of programs to be broadcast on local
 2     information channels such as TVO, establishment of
 3     community channels similar to Rogers Cable 10 in
 4     Toronto.  The latter can also be used to offer Type A
 5     programs in smaller cities.
 6  481                  Fifth, a full consultation with
 7     different communities across Canada on the vision of a
 8     national ethnic television network -- on the preferable
 9     and feasible options and strategies to establish such a
10     network.
11  482                  Sixth, compulsory training in
12     cross-cultural sensitivity and anti-discrimination for
13     both ethnic and mainstream broadcasters, especially
14     their front line staff, for example, commentators and
15     journalists.
16  483                  Seventh, the establishment of ethnic
17     specific advisory groups to monitor and advise the CRTC
18     on ethnic programming.
19  484                  Eighth, commitment, guidelines and
20     policies on the non-discriminatory and
21     non-stereotypical representation of Chinese and other
22     visible minorities in the media that is reflective of
23     the make-up of the Canadian society.  Such commitment,
24     guidelines and policies should address both on the
25     screen and behind the scene representation.  Ethnic


 1     programming is not the solution to the lack of
 2     diversity in the mainstream media.
 3  485                  Thank you very much.
 4  486                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much
 5     for your comments, Mr. Ma and Ms Jong.
 6  487                  I wonder if I could just ask you a
 7     couple of questions of clarification and I believe
 8     Commissioner Langford has a question or two for you as
 9     well.
10  488                  On the second page of your
11     presentation under "Accessibility to Services" you that
12     community channels which can carry ethnic programming
13     have been sold off to specialty channels, such as the
14     golf channel.  I am just wondering what you mean by
15     that.  That's not a phenomenon that I am familiar with.
16  489                  MR. MA:  What we know of is that in
17     some communities that used to have community channels,
18     like Channel 10 in most cases, the number of those
19     channels has been decreasing and we know that sometimes
20     they were sold in order to -- the broadcaster has sold
21     them in order to provide another specialty channel or
22     pay channel, like the golf channel.
23  490                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  So you mean the
24     channel was dropped -- the community channel was
25     dropped?


 1  491                  MR. MA:  Uh-huh.
 2  492                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  Because
 3     typically the specialty channels are not carried on
 4     basic.  Golf, for example, I think is available only on
 5     a discretionary basis and the community channels I
 6     believe are basic channels.  But I would be interested
 7     in finding out from you where you think that has
 8     happened.
 9  493                  MR. MA:  We would be pleased to
10     provide you more information later on.
11  494                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
12  495                  In your recommendations -- your first
13     recommendation says that you recommend:
14                            "an increased commitment in
15                            governmental support and funding
16                            to ethnic programming, more
17                            specifically, in the improvement
18                            of accessibility to services,
19                            and in the development of
20                            informational, educational and
21                            cross-cultural programming, as
22                            the private sector cannot be
23                            depended on to meet the needs of
24                            ethnic communities."
25  496                  Who do you suggest should undertake


 1     that?
 2  497                  MR. MA:  Well, this is something I
 3     think we need to explore.  I think the phenomena of
 4     having a community channel sold off to specialty
 5     channels is one of the things that can be prevented if
 6     there is more funding.
 7  498                  Also, I think that if -- sometimes
 8     also if the community channel does not have enough
 9     programs because they don't offer a lot or there is not
10     enough programs that are supplied to this station.  So,
11     it is a reflection of the fact that there is not
12     support for Canadian-made production.
13  499                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  So, would you see
14     the community channels filling that role, more than a
15     traditional or conventional broadcaster or the public
16     broadcaster, for example?
17  500                  MR. MA:  I think it is one of the
18     ways that these needs can be met and I think the
19     traditional broadcaster can have also their share of
20     responsibility as well.
21  501                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
22  502                  That actually takes me to my next and
23     final question, recommendation No. 5, which is:
24                            "a full consultation with
25                            different communities across


 1                            Canada on the vision of a
 2                            national ethnic television
 3                            network -- on the preferable and
 4                            feasible options and strategies
 5                            to establish such a network;"
 6  503                  We had a presenter yesterday who
 7     suggested that the time has passed for a conventional
 8     national ethnic network and that this is an area that
 9     needs to be served by specialty channels, whether they
10     are single community specialty channels or a group of
11     communities, such as the group of communities that have
12     come together from South Asia or the Asian Television
13     Network.  I am wondering about your response to that
14     suggestion that the time has passed for a national
15     ethnic network?
16  504                  MR. MA:  I think the idea of an
17     national ethnic network is very important in the sense
18     that specialty channels run on the market force.  If
19     there is a profit to be made from that market the
20     service will be provided.  So when we look at the
21     demographics in our community, a large percentage are
22     concentrated in cities such as Toronto and Vancouver
23     which are adequately served I think.  There are still
24     areas in terms of programming that can be improved, but
25     I think that what is really lacking is people, for


 1     example, who live in Halifax or Saskatoon where there
 2     is only about 5,000 people of Chinese origin.  How can
 3     they have access to a specialty channel to serve them,
 4     unless they buy a satellite dish and pay a certain fee. 
 5     Even then you have to have an agreement with the local
 6     broadcaster.
 7  505                  So, we are talking about if there is
 8     an ethnic broadcast network, these smaller communities
 9     may have better access to this third language or ethnic
10     programming than just a structure which should rely on
11     the market force.
12  506                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  And would you see
13     that network being carried on basic?
14  507                  MR. MA:  I don't know enough to
15     respond to that.  Oh, you mean as a basic channel?
16  508                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  On basic cable
17     television or basic DTH or basic MDS, so that it is
18     available to the largest number of subscribers.  There
19     are some actually who would argue that tier 1 has
20     really not become much of a discretionary or is not a
21     discretionary tier any more, since 90 per cent of the
22     subscribers generally subscriber to tier 1.  So it is
23     just sort of like an extended basic.
24  509                  MS JONG:  I guess that would depend
25     on how accessible it would be for other communities. 


 1     The basic principle is to provide like increased access
 2     to people and if it is not included in basic and people
 3     can have access by paying a very minimal fee, I think
 4     it would be viable.
 5  510                  But if it becomes another sort of
 6     specialty channel where people have to pay a
 7     subscription fee, then we are sort of in one way like
 8     defeating the purpose because we are hoping to sort of
 9     have these kind of services available to as many people
10     as possible, regardless of resources.
11  511                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Ma, you
12     appeared at the Canadian Television Policy Review last
13     fall.  I wonder if you have been following the
14     development of digital television and if you think that
15     the development of digital television and the increased
16     number of channels will assist your cause in some way
17     in terms of making channel capacity available for more
18     third language programming services/
19  512                  MR. MA:  No.  I haven't followed very
20     closely on that, but I heard it is coming and we hope
21     that this will increase accessibility to service.
22  513                  Once again, I guess I echo what Ms
23     Jong was saying.  I guess they do have to look at how
24     it is going to be provided, if it's a small fee or if
25     it is something that would not prevent most people to


 1     access that, then I think that would be a welcome
 2     change.
 3  514                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
 4  515                  I will turn you over to Commissioner
 5     Langford.
 6  516                  COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I don't want
 7     to drag this out, but there was part of your comments
 8     about racist and sexism and homophobia and a need for a
 9     more perhaps complete complaint system, monitoring
10     system which you call on the CRTC to put in place.  I
11     don't know if it will surprise you or anyone in this
12     room, but there are some people who think that we get
13     too much involved at the CRTC and that we
14     over-regulate.  There are as many people I think who
15     would ask us to keep our hands out as would ask us to
16     put our hands in and we do have some fairly strong
17     policies in the CRTC in place about these very issues.
18  517                  I just wonder whether it might be
19     something that those in your communities could take on
20     yourselves.  Perhaps we could play a role in steering
21     complaints your way, but sometimes I think it kind
22     of -- I don't want you to think I have got a closed
23     mind on this, but sometimes a joint venture here
24     between us, a strategic alliance perhaps.  You people
25     could do the code and you people could do the


 1     monitoring and we could in a way assist in some way. 
 2     Do you really want to hand the whole thing over to the
 3     CRTC?
 4  518                  MR. MA:  No.  I think we are talking
 5     about just more of a guideline and also more of an
 6     emphasis in this.  I think in the past I guess 10 or 15
 7     years we have been putting a lot of emphasis on
 8     monitoring the mainstream and how they have been
 9     reporting on minorities and women and other minorities.
10  519                  Even with that I think we still are
11     having, for example, this last couple of days we are
12     getting a lot of calls from the media about the
13     situation of four women who were being smuggled into
14     the States.  We are saying why are we asked these
15     questions?  We don't really know so much about this and
16     just because they are Chinese that's the only thing. 
17     If they happened to be another group, but why do we
18     have a monopoly on this story.
19  520                  I think the whole racialization of
20     certain -- I wouldn't want to say crime, but certain
21     activities is still very prevalent in the media.  I
22     know the black community has been making a lot of
23     complaints about that and I think the Asian community
24     has its fair share of being racialized and associated
25     with certain crimes.


 1  521                  So even with the mainstream we still
 2     have a lot of problems even with all this monitoring
 3     and complaint process being in place.  I guess we have
 4     another hearing coming up on the self-regulatory
 5     process and how effective it has been.  I think we
 6     agree with you that it is the best process to start
 7     initiating some kind of a joint process to work on
 8     this.  I think there has not been a lot of emphasis on
 9     this issue of the ethnic and third language
10     programming.  Sometimes it just totally unconscious. 
11     So, in concept maybe it is a question of not being
12     totally aware of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms and
13     maybe it is a question of not having thought through
14     the process, gone through this process.
15  522                  So we are not saying that the ethnic
16     language program is particularly sexist or homophobic,
17     but I think it exists in society and everyone is
18     affected.  If we have a process for the mainstream, why
19     don't we have a process for the ethnic and third
20     language broadcasting as well.
21  523                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Ma
22     and Ms Jong.
23  524                  Madam Secretary.
24  525                  MS RHÉAUME:  The next presentation is
25     by Mr. Emmanuel Dick, President of Canadian


 1     Ethnocultural Council.
 3  526                  MR. DICK:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
 4  527                  Commissioners, ladies and gentlemen. 
 5     The CEC is a national umbrella organization, consisting
 6     of 31 national groups across the country.  Last
 7     weekend, 25 presidents of these organizations met and
 8     today I would like to present you with a summary of
 9     some of these concerns.  Should you have questions that
10     follow after my short presentation, it is my hope that
11     some of our member organizations sitting around the
12     table will assist in clarifying any issues which you
13     may question.
14  528                  Since its inception in 1980, the CEC
15     has represented a cross-section of ethnocultural groups
16     across Canada.  We are a non-profit organization.  We
17     are a non-partisan coalition and we are mandated to
18     preserve a united Canada and to remove barriers that
19     prevent some Canadians from participating fully and
20     equally in society.
21  529                  The Canadian Ethnocultural Council
22     has made a number of presentations to the CRTC, to
23     federal standing committees and to legislative
24     committees regarding ethnocultural groups in Canada. 
25     We appreciate the opportunity to speak to you again on


 1     the importance of multicultural and multilingual
 2     diversity or, as the CRTC calls this consultation,
 3     third language and ethnocultural programming in Canada.
 4  530                  The CEC wishes to make clear that
 5     Canada's demographic reality must be acknowledge and
 6     that mechanisms are put into place which embrace the
 7     Multicultural Act, section 27 of the Charter of Rights
 8     and Freedoms.  Multiculturalism is stated as a
 9     fundamental characteristic of Canada and must be
10     included in broadcasting.
11  531                  The Ethnocultural Council is very
12     interested in having the CRTC modify or reinforce these
13     following areas within the context of third language
14     and ethnocultural programming:
15  532                  One, ensuring accessibility for
16     ethnocultural communities across Canada, reflection of
17     multicultural diversity in Canadian programming,
18     inclusion of Canadian content and addressing gaps int
19     he domestic and international ethnic broadcasting
20     markets.
21  533                  Linguistic and ethnic diversity in
22     broadcasting is an important tool for realizing
23     Canada's commitment to a dynamic and multicultural
24     population.  The principles entrenched in the
25     Multiculturalism Act must be respected by all


 1     broadcasters.  Canada has so fiercely adhered to its
 2     official language policy, but it has not been as
 3     enthusiastic in its support for multiculturalism,
 4     including multilingual and multicultural productions.
 5  534                  Third language and ethnocultural
 6     productions do not have access to the type of funding
 7     sources allotted to French or English-language
 8     programming.  Often third language and ethnic
 9     broadcasting lack adequate support or adequate
10     broadcast technology.
11  535                  Reinforcing strong ethnic and third
12     language programming in Canada could open new
13     opportunities to expand the Canadian presence abroad
14     and could be the beginning of a media industry with a
15     great deal of potential.  This is a source which has
16     the capacity to evolve in a source of price for all
17     Canadians and which, with nurturing from the CRTC,
18     would increase in importance.
19  536                  Since the CRTC ethnic broadcasting
20     policy was enacted in 1985, StatsCanada has reported a
21     steady increase in the number of immigrants who have a
22     language other than English or French as their primary
23     language.  As home to 42 per cent of Canada's visible
24     minority population, Toronto is estimated to attract
25     over 70,000 immigrants a year.


 1  537                  Given our changing global and
 2     domestic communities, the value of ethnocultural and
 3     third-language broadcasting is even more important than
 4     it was when the ethnic broadcasting policy was put in
 5     place.  Ethnocultural and third-language programming
 6     created with Canadian values in mind are essential
 7     tools for Canadians who want to be involved in the
 8     global community.  This programming allows some people
 9     to consume Canadian news, information and values, while
10     speaking the language of their homeland.
11  538                  Other people, this programming
12     provides an opportunity for the development of their
13     education and understanding of a myriad of cultural and
14     linguistic backgrounds.
15  539                  The Canadian system of privatization
16     seems to leave many ethnocultural communities very
17     weak.  Canada's only policy on funding requires
18     applicants applying for an ethnic programming licence
19     to provide evidence of continued financial commitment. 
20     The market for ethnic programming in Canada has become
21     more competitive over the years.  In this competitive
22     market, smaller ethnic communities continue to receive
23     fewer and fewer programming services.
24  540                  Domestically, the production of
25     ethnocultural programming depends on work done by


 1     independent producers.  Economic support from the
 2     ethnocultural communities is generated through
 3     sponsorship.  Any reduction of funding threatens or
 4     makes local production impossible.
 5  541                  Despite the important need for ethnic
 6     broadcasting, conventional television has proven to be
 7     an inadequate response to the public demand for
 8     multicultural programming.
 9  542                  Barriers that currently limit the
10     distribution of programming between communities must be
11     removed in order for programming to meet markets all
12     across Canada.  Community access television needs to be
13     strengthened and reinforced at the local levels.  The
14     CRTC must require all cable companies to provide
15     community programming.
16  543                  The CRTC has been negligent in
17     ensuring that public broadcasting fully reflect the
18     multicultural, multilingual and diversity of Canada's
19     demographic reality.  This is especially so with
20     respect to the CBC English and French-language
21     programming.  Mainstream broadcasters do not produce
22     enough Canadian content which promotes intercultural
23     understanding.
24  544                  The CRTC should ensure that grants
25     are available to help offset the costs connected with


 1     ethnic programming.  The emphasis should be placed on
 2     building strong and effective ethnocultural programming
 3     on a domestic level to ensure that Canadian values are
 4     reflected in content.
 5  545                  As technology advances, the CRTC must
 6     recognize that rates of computer access and computer
 7     literacy are not equitable all across the communities. 
 8     Visible minorities and linguistic minorities are among
 9     many groups that will be faced with marginalization as
10     Canadians with access to new technology work to improve
11     their skills.  Canada must place its priority on the
12     domestic production of ethnocultural services, rather
13     than relying on the import of foreign services.  The
14     development of distinctly Canadian ethnocultural
15     services is crucial in order for Canada to maintain its
16     sovereignty and in order to transmit uniquely Canadian
17     values to linguistic and ethnocultural groups.
18  546                  Imported television broadcast,
19     particularly as this relates to international news,
20     information and trades also have a role.  These should
21     not be considered to primarily function, but should be
22     balanced with quality Canadian content.
23  547                  When our proposal is submitted there
24     will be a fully developed rationale that will follow
25     the recommendations I am about to read and there are a


 1     number of recommendations:
 2  548                  The CRTC must include; one, the
 3     renewal of the commitment it made in 1985 to basic
 4     principles entrenched in the broadcasting policy
 5     reflecting Canada's cultural and linguistic diversity. 
 6     It must ensure that mechanisms are put in place which
 7     accords these principles appropriate resources and
 8     mechanisms for implementation.
 9  549                  The CRTC must also include the
10     principles entrenched in the Multiculturalism Act
11     should be respected by all broadcasters.
12  550                  The CRTC develop certification of
13     Canadian content by the use of scorecard rating
14     systems, whereby the reflection of Canada's
15     multicultural diversity is included as part of the
16     scores for certification.
17  551                  A structure governing how necessary
18     resources will be allocated to community-based
19     organizations for research and analysis of the needs of
20     ethnocultural communities and various elements of
21     broadcasting, including the impact on new media.
22  552                  A system of funding and grants made
23     available to help finance the production of domestic
24     ethnocultural and third-language programming for
25     domestic and international markets that would allow for


 1     the production of higher budget and higher-quality
 2     productions.
 3  553                  The encouragement of networks that
 4     facilitate co-productions between Canadian programmers
 5     and their international counterparts.
 6  554                  An improved broadcast distribution
 7     system that would allow the movement of ethnocultural
 8     programs between urban centres, but within
 9     ethnocultural communities for broadcast and community
10     access channels.
11  555                  The definition of community should
12     have both a domestic and an international focus in
13     order to build networks between broadcasters within
14     Canada and abroad.
15  556                  It is crucial that Canada's
16     demographic reality be reflected in television, radio
17     and new media programming, both domestically and in
18     programs we export.  Ethnic programming is even more
19     important than it was when the broadcasting policy was
20     last reviews.
21  557                  This, Madam Chair, is just but a part
22     of a larger submission that will be coming to you very
23     shortly.
24  558                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
25     much, Mr. Dick.


 1  559                  I believe Commissioner Langford has a
 2     question for you.
 3  560                  COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I listened
 4     with interest to your recommendations and I thank you
 5     for the amount of work you have obviously put into this
 6     paper of yours, your presentation.
 7  561                  One thing confused me a little and it
 8     may be that I just didn't hear it correctly and I
 9     wonder if you could clarify it for me.  You call at one
10     point for -- I think you did, I don't want to put words
11     in your mouth, but my notes seem to say you called for
12     a return to kind of stronger community channels and at
13     the same time you are calling for more production, more
14     Canadian production of programming.  You will know, of
15     course, or you may know that there has been a movement
16     away from community channels towards putting money into
17     Canadian production funds.  Are you calling for kind of
18     a move back to the community or a balance of both or
19     have I just misunderstood you?
20  562                  MR. DICK:  I am consulting my
21     colleagues who were at the meeting on the weekend.  I
22     think they want to move towards a more balanced.
23  563                  COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So room for
24     both we think?
25  564                  MR. DICK:  Yes.


 1  565                  COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thank you
 2     very much.
 3  566                  Maybe when you are putting your final
 4     submission in by March 4 you could take another look at
 5     that for me.  I just want to make sure I am clear on
 6     it.
 7  567                  MR. DICK:  Okay.  Thanks very much.
 8  568                  COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thank you
 9     very much.
10  569                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
11     much, Mr. Dick.
12  570                  MS RHÉAUME:  The next presentation is
13     by Mr. Hasanat Ahmad Syed, Executive Director of the
14     Ethnic Council of Arts.
16  571                  MR. SYED:  Good afternoon, Madam
17     Chair and members of the CRTC.
18  572                  I thank the members of the CRTC for
19     giving me an opportunity to make a presentation on a
20     very important subject.  The CRTC is to be complimented
21     for having undertaken this review of its current policy
22     respecting third language and ethnic programming.
23  573                  As indicated by the CRTC, it was in
24     1985 when it evolved a broadcasting policy reflecting
25     Canada's cultural and linguistic diversity.


 1  574                  Truly, much has changed.  The face of
 2     Canada is changing fast, especially of Toronto which in
 3     a couple of years would have a preponderance of a
 4     population whose mother tongue would neither be English
 5     nor French.  it does call for urgent and immediate
 6     measures.
 7  575                  To the first question:  To what
 8     extent -- to the first question of the CRTC -- To what
 9     extent does the present broadcasting system adequately
10     serve Canada's ethnocultural communities system?  The
11     answer is simple; it does not.  The question of the
12     extent does not arise.  There is a total disdain and
13     contempt displayed by the network towards third
14     language and ethnic programming.
15  576                  We do not go across the country.  We
16     would only take the example of Toronto, where more than
17     10 per cent of Canada's entire population lives and of
18     which more than half comprises of the various ethnic
19     communities.
20  577                  Taking again only the TV networks,
21     CBC, CTV, Global, City-TV, TV Ontario and a host of
22     other small networks, their programming schedule reveal 
23     a dismal picture and the worst culprits among them are
24     those networks which are paid out of the taxpayers
25     money and a chunk of that money come from the pockets


 1     of the ethnic communities.  The management of the CBC
 2     and TV Ontario have some explaining to do.  Why on a
 3     consistent basis they are ignoring the legitimate needs
 4     and aspirations of an audience from whom they are
 5     getting million of dollars?
 6  578                  The CRTC has a role to play in this
 7     area.  It is time when they come before the CRTC for
 8     the renewal of their licences that the CRTC can
 9     question them:  What is their performance in this area?
10  579                  I have appeared before this body in
11     the past when the licence for the renewal of the CBC
12     came up and when Mr. Keith (sic) was the Chair.  He did
13     take notice, but in the absence of an ongoing
14     monitoring system, all assurances lapsed in oblivion.
15  580                  Such reviews are only good if there
16     is a follow-up action.  These hearings in themselves
17     are good only if there is a concrete and firm
18     enunciation of a policy that responds to the changing
19     needs of the time.
20  581                  In addition to third-language
21     broadcasts, ethnic programming demands a serious
22     attention.  We welcome an over-zealous coverage of
23     Christmas and the last two weeks of the months of
24     December ethnic Canadians listen to nothing but
25     Christmas shopping, Christmas festivities, Christmas


 1     carols and the whole of Canada is engulfed in it.  The
 2     Canadians came only to know about the beginning of
 3     Ramadhan when USA and Britain started air strikes on
 4     Baghdad.
 5  582                  Canadians know very little what
 6     Ramadhan is.  About half a million Canadians are
 7     Muslims and then very little is known what Eid ul Fitr
 8     is, which to Muslims is more important than Christmas,
 9     and yet no network carried any program about the
10     significance of Ramadhan or the feast that follows it.
11  583                  Canadian Muslims feel that they live
12     in a foreign land, even though we are proud of being
13     Canadian, but the Canadians are not proud of us.  The
14     same thing can be said about the festivals of Jews,
15     hindus, Budhs, Sikhs and others.
16  584                  Coming to the second question of the
17     CRTC:  Given the demographic changes that have taken
18     place in Canada how can the needs and interests of
19     ethnocultural communities continue to be served?
20  585                  The question sounds interesting,
21     continue to be served.  It presupposes that needs of
22     the ethnocultural are served.  There is no such things
23     as their needs are served.
24  586                  While the CRTC acknowledges the
25     demographic changes, it is unfortunate that they


 1     believe their needs are being served.  That is not the
 2     situation.
 3  587                  Again, we take the example of Toronto
 4     which has a preponderance of a population which is
 5     neither English nor French, then why 95 per cent of the
 6     content of the broadcasts are English?  And why the
 7     networks like CBC and TV Ontario which are getting
 8     millions of dollars from the pockets of the ethnic
 9     communities do not devote even 10 per cent of their
10     broadcast in third languages or ethnic programming?
11  588                  Here the CRTC has a role to play.  It
12     is you who renew their licences without asking them
13     whether they are discharging their obligations towards
14     their audiences.  The CRTC has to develop a strong
15     monitoring system.  These hearings do not carry much
16     force if the policy evolved by the CRTC decorate their
17     own archives.
18  589                  The best yardstick, at least for
19     Toronto, is the examination and assessment of the
20     relative strength of Canadians of Chinese, South Asian
21     origin and based on their figures the time slot at
22     least on the public broadcasting system which heavily
23     draws upon the revenues from the ethnic communities be
24     crafted.  We are not asking for time allocation of 50
25     per cent, which is justified by the strength of the


 1     population that lives in Toronto, but a reasonable
 2     beginning.  A recognition of the fact that these ethnic
 3     communities do exist and their needs are to be served
 4     in a fashion that is both democratic and sensible. 
 5     This applies to both public and private broadcasting
 6     networks and that is only possible if the CRTC asks for
 7     iron clad guarantees from these networks when they come
 8     up before the CRTC for the renewal of their licences.
 9  590                  Another step that the CRTC can take
10     is to issue at least two or three more licences for
11     independent networks which exclusively cater to the
12     ethnic needs.
13  591                  Coming to the third question:  Should
14     there be a priority on the development of ethnocultural
15     services than importing foreign services/
16  592                  It is an ideal situation.  If we can
17     attach priority to their development, but then the
18     question is of the funds.  We have the Canada Council
19     which is as narrow minded as broadcasting networks are. 
20     They don't feel obliged to fund ethnic initiatives. 
21     There is another organization which is living in the
22     past and refuses to recognize the changing face of
23     Canada.  if the CRTC can compel the broadcasters to
24     fund such development projects it would be an ideal
25     situation.


 1  593                  The importing of foreign services
 2     cannot be dispensed with.  Such services, however
 3     foreign they may be, they do serve a purpose.  Till the
 4     time indigenous services are developed, and ethnic
 5     talent is fully flowered, we have to import such
 6     programming.
 7  594                  As we have indicated, the development
 8     of services here in Canada by ethnic talent is a most
 9     welcome move, but can the CRTC provide funds?  No.  It
10     has no funds, nor can it compel the Canada Council or
11     private or broadcasters to make funds available for
12     such ventures.  it simply cannot put a ban on foreign
13     services.
14  595                  Before I close my presentation, I
15     must lay a great deal of emphasis on developing a
16     mechanism which keeps a constant watch on the needs of
17     third language and ethnic programming, otherwise these
18     hearings carry no meanings and nothing would come out
19     of these hearings.
20  596                  It would be a good idea if the CRTC
21     set up an advisory panel of ethnic journalists and
22     artists who can be the ears and eyes of the CRTC.  I
23     have spent more than 20 years in broadcasting in my
24     home country and I am prepared to serve on such a
25     panel.


 1  597                  One of two recommendations that I
 2     have and I want to present before the CRTC is that
 3     there has to be a constant monitoring system.  You see,
 4     we are meeting after 15 years to develop a system over
 5     which we have not any control.  If we have a regular
 6     monitoring system, then it can meet the ethnic needs.
 7  598                  The second is that the CRTC has to be
 8     a little more generous in granting licences for
 9     channels which can only and exclusively serve the
10     visible minorities.  Only one channel, that is Asian
11     Television Network, I don't know how they got this
12     licence.  It is a miracle, because the CRTC is -- I am
13     sorry to say -- is a very close-minded organization. 
14     There are specialty channels, there is a golf channel,
15     a life channel, but there is no channel intended for
16     the visible minorities.  That is something that is not
17     acceptable.
18  599                  Thank you very much.
19  600                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
20     much, Mr. Syed.  You will be happy to know there are
21     now nine new Commissioners that have joined within the
22     last year.  Maybe that will have some effect on how
23     open minded you believe the institution is.
24  601                  I have one questions for you.  You
25     made a comment about allowing foreign services in,


 1     authorizing foreign services for carriage to serve
 2     various ethnocultural groups until the domestic
 3     services have a chance to flourish.  It has been argued
 4     at various proceedings before us that as soon as you
 5     authorize a foreign service to be carried you preclude
 6     the ability of a Canadian to start such a service
 7     because that service comes in and gets launched and
 8     attracts an audience and the market is so small in
 9     Canada that it can only support one channel in any
10     particular niche, and sometimes, as in the case of ATN
11     you have, you know, a group of communities, ethnic
12     communities who come together to do programming on one
13     network.
14  602                  What would your response be to that? 
15     I am just curious.  Would you take the foreign service
16     off once people have become attached to it/
17  603                  MR. SYED:  I do understand the
18     significance of your question and I do agree with the
19     premise.  The thing is the CRTC -- or there is no other
20     organization which can fund the local talent.  The
21     local talent cannot jump out of its own.  There has to
22     be some support.  The CRTC has no funds, nor does any
23     other body.
24  604                  ATN people -- I don't know --
25     Chandrasekar has done personally with his own money the


 1     thing that he is doing, but the thing is that visible
 2     minorities being what they are, I mean 10 per cent,
 3     there has to be some way where the local talent has to
 4     develop and they cannot just pop out itself unless the
 5     funding is there.
 6  605                  There is no organization in Canada
 7     which provides any funding to any ethnic community at
 8     all.  You go to the Canada Council of Arts and they
 9     simply are interested in dances and all that stuff.  I
10     mean there is nothing wrong with that, but the thing is
11     that they have to take into consideration the changing
12     demographic of Canada.  They simply close their eyes.
13  606                  The Canada Council spent last year
14     $55 million in Ontario alone.  If you ask them how much
15     they have spent on the ethnic communities they simply
16     have no answer for that.
17  607                  The thing is that your hands are
18     limited.  I mean, you simply regulate this particular
19     industry and it is in the regulation of this industry
20     that you can wield power.  The thing is that if these
21     networks come and you say, look, there is a changing
22     face of Canada and you have to pay attention to it. 
23     You do -- we, in any case, watch the CBC and all of
24     us -- the thing is that what we see is nothing of our
25     interest.


 1  608                  We do watch news.  The thing is that
 2     there is so many programs which are intended for -- I
 3     mean there is nothing wrong with that, but they have to
 4     take into consideration the other things.  We are
 5     paying money.  The money that we pay goes to the CBC as
 6     well and that is the thing.
 7  609                  So, my suggestion is that the CRTC
 8     has only stick and that stick is of the renewal of the
 9     licences.  They can only say, look here, this is the
10     thing.  We are having pressure.  We see there is a
11     changing face in Canada and you have to take notice of
12     it.
13  610                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
14     much.
15  611                  Commissioner Langford.
16  612                  COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I will try to
17     be brief because I don't want to slow other people
18     down, but a couple of things that you said caught my
19     interest, one Martha has already addressed, but a
20     couple of others.
21  613                  With regard to renewal of licences,
22     like the CBC and CTV.  Coincidentally, they are coming
23     up for renewal this year, so I am interested in your
24     comments obviously.  But I wonder how you address this
25     sort of a problem, that though Toronto is a large part


 1     of the Canadian reality, it is not the only part of the
 2     Canadian reality and the CBC is trying to program for
 3     the whole Canadian reality.  I don't want to appear to
 4     be an apologist for the CBC, but I just want to try to
 5     state the other side of the coin.
 6  614                  So that if they are programming for
 7     Yellowknife or Halifax or Tuktoyaktuk or Edmonton, they
 8     may be looking at a completely different demographic
 9     mix than Toronto.  Are you suggesting that the CRTC
10     make specific ethnocultural licensing conditions that
11     would reflect the Toronto reality, but in a sense not
12     reflect other parts of Canada?  How do we deal with
13     that balancing problem?
14  615                  MR. SYED:  It is not a question of
15     Toronto.  What about Vancouver?  Vancouver has a very
16     large population of Asians.  There are a number of
17     pockets where the thing is --
18  616                  COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  But I am
19     saying what about Canada?
20  617                  MR. SYED:  The thing is the CBC is
21     programming on a national level.  You may be probably
22     right because of 90 per cent, but when they are coming
23     to Ontario they have to entirely change that complex
24     because they are catering to a population of which half
25     of which does not speak English and French.


 1  618                  COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So would you
 2     make them -- I am not trying to interrupt, but I am
 3     just trying to speed this along a little because there
 4     are so many people, but would you make then a clear
 5     delineation between local CBC program, which they have
 6     a local CBC station here, and national CBC programming? 
 7     Is that really what we are going for here?
 8  619                  MR. SYED:  Probably that will serve
 9     the purpose, if local CBC programming -- even that
10     doesn't do anything at all.  If you watch local CBC
11     programming, not even 10 per cent of the ethnic or
12     third language is there.  I mean it is entirely devoted
13     to one angle, one slant.
14  620                  So, if you want to confine CBC
15     national and CBC regional, then of course we will go
16     for -- and CBC Ontario and they provide us a chunk of
17     time which should be reflected by the demographic
18     fields.
19  621                  COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thanks very
20     much.
21  622                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much
22     for being with us.
23  623                  MS RHÉAUME:  The next presenter is
24     Mr. Ajit Jain, Secretary for the South Asian
25     Journalists' Club.


 2  624                  MR. JAIN:  Good afternoon, Madam
 3     Chairperson and also the Commissioner, fellow
 4     professional journalists and experts here.
 5  625                  As the first speaker mentioned about
 6     Asian Television Network and the discussion also
 7     started with my previous speaker, I do agree with both
 8     speakers that it is futile on the part of the CRTC to
 9     give a specialty licence to Asian Television Network
10     and not ensure that the cable companies comply -- that
11     they have a licence and the cable companies co-operate
12     and give them the channel.  So, two years have passed
13     and the programs are coming along, you require a dish
14     and you pay "x" amount of money.  The result is the
15     viewers are not there.  The viewers are not there
16     because you have to first buy a dish.  You have to
17     install a dish and it takes so much effort and many
18     people say they don't know whether the program is going
19     to continue or not.  So the cable companies have to be
20     advised to co-operate.
21  626                  But the opening thing for me, this
22     kind of review, as has been mentioned, it is important
23     to get input from all across the country, from
24     different professional organizations, experts in the
25     broadcasting field and others.  This should not be a


 1     one-time review, as has been mentioned earlier.  This
 2     is very significant.  It has to be monitored because
 3     the situation in the country is constantly changing and
 4     I will have to, even for the sake of repetition it has
 5     been mentioned about statistics, census figures, that
 6     around 200,000 people are being admitted into the
 7     country on an annual basis, an ongoing basis and come
 8     in different categories, independent immigrants,
 9     professionals, people under the family reunification
10     clause and also business people who come here to make
11     investments.  They are admitted as investors.  They
12     bring different types of experiences, their different
13     cultural and ethno background, different religions.
14  627                  Seventy-thousand people come to this
15     city alone and all the beautiful faces come each year
16     to this city alone.  Now, they don't look alike.  They
17     look different because they come from different
18     countries and they come from different backgrounds. 
19     Their needs are completely different.  Many of them
20     don't speak a word of English.  They don't speak a word
21     of French.  It doesn't mean they are illiterate.  They
22     bring a wealth of experience and it is because of their
23     experience.  It is because of their qualifications.  It
24     is because of their degrees they have from third
25     countries that Canada Immigration allows them to come


 1     to this country.
 2  628                  Once they come here what do we do
 3     about their needs?  The 1996 census was mentioned
 4     earlier and here I have the figures.  There about 3.2
 5     million visible minority people in the country and of
 6     these 700,000 are South Asians.  I represent at least
 7     those 700,000 as my friend to my left does.  In Toronto
 8     alone there are 353,000 South Asians and a population
 9     of known French, known English-speaking people are
10     projected by demographers to exceed to 54 per cent by
11     the end of the century.  It is just one year, barely
12     one year.
13  629                  So our suggestion, I am talking on
14     behalf of the South Asian Journalists' Club, the South
15     Asian journalists as a whole, that this kind of review
16     of the broadcasting policy should be an ongoing
17     exercise, a regular exercise to get input from people
18     at large to regularly review the needs of the new
19     immigrants and also to ascertain reactions of
20     Canadians, Canadians at large.
21  630                  There is no doubt of expertise in the
22     country.  Expertise is not confined.  After all, CBC,
23     TV Ontario, as was mentioned earlier, are being
24     financed by the Canadian taxpayers, by him and me and
25     you alike, so these organizations at least have to meet


 1     the needs of the larger population, a population
 2     comprising of different religions, different ethnic
 3     groups, different cultural groups and that is not
 4     happening, most unfortunately.
 5  631                  Whether the CBC should be following,
 6     as the Commissioner asked, a country-wide policy or
 7     confined to a local pocket, what about the local
 8     programming?  The question was asked, you see.  If they
 9     are thinking of the entire Canadian policy and the
10     Canadian population, the Canadian population normally
11     comprises of 100 per cent French speaking, 100 per cent
12     WASP, but the population has changed and this factor,
13     this important factor cannot be ignored.  The viewers
14     have changed.  What about the needs of these viewers?
15  632                  Coming now to the needs of our group,
16     that is the South Asian population, you, friends,
17     sitting on the board, members of the CRTC, should know
18     that in India -- I have to mention that -- there are 19
19     different languages and 353,000 people who live in
20     Toronto alone speak these 19 different languages.  I am
21     not expecting the CBC or TV Ontario to start
22     programming in 19 different languages, but here is the
23     Asian Television Network which was mentioned, a
24     specialty channel and they got a licence so that they
25     could present programming in 19 different languages.


 1  633                  Predominantly, I will take out of
 2     those 19 different languages those who are here and
 3     speak Punjabi, Busarati (ph) and Hindi.  These are
 4     three major languages.  In Pakistan, a neighbouring
 5     country of India, they speak Urdu as their main
 6     language.  In Bangladesh, another neighbouring country,
 7     and these people are here in a large number, they speak
 8     Urdu and Bengali.  Immigrants from Sri Lanka, another
 9     South Asian country, speak two major languages, Tamil
10     and Sinhalese.  Immigrants from Nepal speak Nepalese
11     and Hindu.
12  634                  In your current exercise you have to
13     bear this fact in mind that there is an important
14     segment of the Canadian population who speak all these
15     languages, but many of them also speak English
16     fluently.  I never said they don't speak English.  They
17     are here.
18  635                  There are immigrants who are admitted
19     under the Family Reunification clause which is very
20     important, largely seniors, and they don't speak
21     English or French.  They speak Hindi, Punjabi, Tamil
22     and Urdu.  These people are emotionally attached to
23     their respective religions as any new immigrant.  Many
24     of them are Sikhs, Hindus, Buddhists or followers of
25     Islam like my friend.  How this diversity -- it is very


 1     important -- is reflected in the CRTC policies simply
 2     reviews, simply asking questions, satisfies their
 3     needs.
 4  636                  People have written, people have made
 5     telephone calls.  They have made representations,
 6     letters to the editor have appeared.  People have met
 7     Perrin Beatty, a friend of this friend, and his
 8     predecessors from the CBC, but the policies don't seem
 9     to have changed.  The CBC's attitude hasn't changed at
10     all.  The CBC thinks the country is what it was 20
11     years back and it still continues to be dominated by
12     programming that largely caters to a WASP population or
13     French Canadians.
14  637                  How many visible minority faces do we
15     see on the CBC screen at least?  How many reporters or
16     producers have they employed from visible minority
17     communities or from South Asians?  How many South
18     Asians or visible minority experts are invited for
19     interviews or roundtable discussions on subjects that
20     affect them directly -- South Asians?
21  638                  There is an enormous amount of
22     criticism of India currently going on in the mainstream
23     media on the treatment of Christians in some parts of
24     the country -- back in India.  The CBC has not taken
25     the trouble when the subject is so insensitive, so


 1     emotional, of inviting some indo-Canadian experts who
 2     know what is happening, who know the country, who know
 3     the minority groups, either professional journalists,
 4     broadcasters, teachers or the students or the regular
 5     visitors or the business people who also visit the
 6     country or the politicians who visit from India or the
 7     South Asian subcontinent here and they have the
 8     information.
 9  639                  People sit at a desk in the CBC
10     building and they take it upon themselves that they are
11     experts in all conceivable subjects or they have their
12     own list of favourites who are invited to discuss any
13     and every subject, most unfortunately, and I consider
14     that and my friends consider that to be very unfair to
15     minority communities.  These are harsh words, but they
16     have to be said here.
17  640                  So, to answer your first question, as
18     to the extent the present broadcasting system serves
19     Canada's ethnocultural communities, my answer is
20     minimal.  There is just no interest to serve the new
21     Canadians, certainly from my home country I will say,
22     from the subcontinent which is part of my home country,
23     South Asia.
24  641                  Your second question relates to the
25     demographic changes that have taken place in the


 1     country and how can the needs and interests of
 2     ethnocultural communities continue to be served?  I
 3     stated earlier the existing networks are hardly
 4     responding to the needs of ethnocultural communities or
 5     their interest.  How many Canadians what Devali (ph)
 6     is?  Devali is Christmas.  Devali is New Years for
 7     Indians, for Hindus largely.
 8  642                  How many people know that, as he
 9     mentioned, the significance of Ramadhan?  This lack of
10     awareness is attributed, frankly, to the lack of
11     interest on the part of the TV networks or the part of
12     radio stations.  The community groups, the various
13     Hindu temples organize major festivities in Toronto. 
14     They send press release, make telephone calls with out
15     any response.
16  643                  They don't know how to write press
17     releases they are told, so you, the CRTC, has to send a
18     directive, if it is within your mandate, I am not sure,
19     to the CBC, CTV.  You said they are coming for review,
20     their licence, and this is the question to be asked. 
21     This is the information they must provide to the CRTC,
22     that they have to have a time slot for ethnic
23     programming, for programming of different religions to
24     respond to the needs of around 12 per cent of the
25     visible minority population and also for other groups


 1     on behalf of the South Asian media.
 2  644                  My suggestion is that various TV
 3     networks, radio stations, should be advised to set up
 4     advisory panels of the ethnic journalists, academics,
 5     artists who provide regular input regarding the needs
 6     of the respective groups.  Similarly, the CRTC itself
 7     could have a panel on these lines as part of their
 8     ongoing review of their policies.
 9  645                  Thank you, Commissioners, for
10     listening to me.
11  646                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much
12     for your contribution this afternoon.
13  647                  MS RHÉAUME:  The next presentation is
14     by Ms Elvira Sanchez de Malicki of the Canadian
15     Hispanic Congress.
17  648                  MS SANCHEZ de MALICKI:  Buenos
18     tardes.  Muchas gracias.  Me nombre es Elvira Sanchez
19     de Malicki.  And no, I am not going to speak everything
20     in Spanish, don't worry.
21  649                  I am the founding President of the
22     Canadian Hispanic Congress, the national organization
23     which represents more than 700,000 Spanish-speaking
24     people with origins in more than 20 different countries
25     and who now live in Canada.  The CHC is a member of the


 1     Canadian Ethnocultural Council and the National
 2     organization of Immigrant and Visible Minority Women of
 3     Canada, organizations which represent the more than 50
 4     per cent of Canada's population which are neither of
 5     English, French or native origin.
 6  650                  I am a director and independent
 7     producer involved in Hispanic theatre and television
 8     since the early seventies.  Most of the work has been
 9     done without remuneration.  There is not much money in
10     ethnic productions and almost no chance to work in
11     mainstream productions.
12  651                  For almost two decades I have been a
13     "card-carrying" member of ACTRA.  "Card-carrying" has a
14     different meaning when you only get called for "ethnic"
15     roles, and usually not the most glamorous ones.
16  652                  I have served in the Media Committees
17     with the CEC, NOIVMW, the Canada and the ontario
18     Advisory Councils on Multiculturalism and Citizenship. 
19     Last July I was appointed to the board of Telefilm
20     Canada.  But I am not speaking as a member of Telefilm. 
21     They will be making their submission later on to you.
22  653                  I will not bring you statistics.  I
23     believe all the resources to get all the statistics
24     about Canada's ethnocultural communities and you also
25     should be very much aware of the importance of living


 1     in this global village.  I am not going to be ethno
 2     specific in my comments, but I am speaking to you as a
 3     Canadian citizen who can't accept the fact that the
 4     demographic reality of Canada is blatantly absent from
 5     our radios, cinemas, television and "new media".
 6  654                  I am speaking for the millions who
 7     can't or won't because they feel utterly helpless and
 8     frustrated living in a society that boasts about its
 9     human rights, its equality and respect for all, yet,
10     fails to accurately reflect its people.  Does the fact
11     that we don't see nor hear them mean that they don't
12     exist?  We have numerous acts, laws and regulations in
13     favour of protecting and nurturing Canada's diversity
14     yet, the reality we live is so contrary to the stated
15     ideals.
16  655                  We must stop representing ours as a
17     unichrome/unitone society.  Because this, we are not.
18  656                  Since the broadcast media is the most
19     powerful tool for influencing or educating society, the
20     CRTC must establish now the mechanisms which will help
21     to ensure that the demographic reality of Canada is
22     fairly and equitably reflected in its radio, film,
23     television and new media screens in order to ensure
24     that all Canadians have equal access participation and
25     representation in the economic, political, social and


 1     cultural life of Canada.
 2  657                  The CRTC should ensure that the
 3     Broadcasting Act reflects the demographic reality of
 4     Canada, respects the Multiculturalism Act and embraces
 5     the Constitution of Canada which states that
 6     "multiculturalism is a fundamental characteristic of
 7     Canada".
 8  658                  It is absolutely unacceptable to
 9     speak of our multicultural and multiracial reality and
10     omit the obvious multilingual reality.  Or are we to
11     perpetuate the Victoria ways that "children must be
12     seen, but not heard?"
13  659                  I have typed some proposed changes to
14     the Broadcasting Act.  I know that the CRTC doesn't do
15     the changes, but I am sure and trust that after hearing
16     the presentations here today you will bring it to the
17     powers that be and, hopefully, there will be a
18     revision, especially on the issue of the two official
19     languages, which is very discriminatory to a
20     multilingual society.
21  660                  When we consider relevant Canadian
22     content it is important to note that not all cable
23     companies are required to provide a community channel
24     and thus, ethnic programming has suffered so that there
25     are less and less opportunities to produce and air


 1     ethnic programming.
 2  661                  The fact that a Canadian host
 3     introduces videos, films or any kind of show which
 4     consists of, primarily, imported audiovisual material,
 5     and such program is packaged and broadcast in Canada,
 6     does not constitute Canadian content.  Canadian content
 7     should reflect the Canadian point of view in all of its
 8     different expressions, be reflective of our demographic
 9     reality and be relevant to Canadians.
10  662                  Relevant Canadian content should be
11     varied and include programming in all the genres,
12     including information, documentaries, drama, children's
13     programming.
14  663                  Mainstream broadcasters do not
15     produce Canadian content which promotes intercultural
16     understanding.
17  664                  The whole issue of brokerage by
18     mainstream broadcasters should be reviewed by the CRTC. 
19     It allows for a two-tier system of accessibility of our
20     broadcast channels and permits loopholes in Canadian
21     content requirements.
22  665                  The CRTC's policies on carriage of
23     ethnic stations and foreign services:  The current CRTC
24     policy that 10 per cent of a community must be ethnic
25     origin before service is carried is discriminatory and


 1     must be revised.  This policy denies access.
 2  666                  It is important that audiences decide
 3     which discretionary services they are willing to pay
 4     for.
 5  667                  The CRTC has allowed foreign services
 6     to be carried by cable companies which is less of a
 7     priority than strengthening Canadian ethnic services.
 8  668                  Regarding community audience input: 
 9     Licensees of third language and ethnic broadcasting,
10     and basically all licensees, should be sensitive and
11     responsive to the needs and demands of the community
12     they purport to serve.
13  669                  Some principles for the Commission to
14     embrace in, and I don't like saying ethnic broadcasting
15     because I believe it should be just Canadian
16     broadcasting.
17  670                  Ethnic broadcasting has evolved
18     significantly since 1985 when the CRTC first issued its
19     Policy on Ethnic Broadcasting and should continue to be
20     an integral component of the Canadian broadcasting
21     system.
22  671                  I would like to make the following
23     recommendations:
24  672                  That the CRTC adopt an integrative
25     approach to its ethnic policy.  Semantics are not


 1     important.  "Broadcasting Policy Reflecting Canada's
 2     Cultural and linguistic Diversity" was a better name
 3     and that was what was used 15 years ago.  Now having it
 4     as "Third Language and Ethnic Broadcasting" is
 5     basically pigeonholing it into something that is very
 6     unacceptable.
 7  673                  That the CRTC develops new guidelines
 8     for -- and this I want you to please take close note. 
 9     That the CRTC develops new guidelines for the
10     certification of Canadian content, perhaps by the use
11     of a score-card rating system whereby the reflection of
12     Canada's demographic reality is integral to the
13     certification.
14  674                  I find that very often productions
15     which could qualify as Canadian content are
16     disqualified if they are done on a third language and
17     that is not fair.  So, I think that the CRTC should
18     look at the certification of Canadian content to make
19     sure that if you are using a score-card system or
20     whatever system at least certain points are given for
21     the reflection of Canada's diversity or points being
22     taken out if it doesn't.
23  675                  That all, ethnic as well as
24     mainstream, Canadian broadcasters, including the CBC
25     and Radio-Canada, be encouraged to produce relevant


 1     Canadian content in all genres.  It is not fair that
 2     our main public broadcaster blatantly ignores our
 3     reality.
 4  676                  That the CRTC review the practice of
 5     brokering programming.
 6  677                  That the CRTC review its current
 7     policy on carriage of ethnic broadcasting services.  I
 8     make this a priority over the additional entry into
 9     Canada and carriage by cable companies of more foreign
10     services, especially if we take into consideration the
11     fact that digital compression will enable cable
12     companies to carry many channels.
13  678                  That the CRTC make ethnic
14     broadcasters more responsive to the views of audiences
15     and accountable to them.
16  679                  That more international
17     co-productions be encouraged.
18  680                  That there be support in terms of
19     financing for Canadian ethnic programming to allow, for
20     example, higher budget and quality programming to be
21     produced.  It is ridiculous to expect ethnic
22     programming to be produced with no financing.  Then
23     they say, "Well, why are we going to put ethnic
24     programming if it is of such low quality?"  I mean
25     where is fairness?  Where is equity in this country.


 1  681                  So, there should be financing
 2     available to all ethnic programming and allow the
 3     programming to evolve.
 4  682                  I would like to conclude with a
 5     comment that came from a consensus established by other
 6     ethnocultural groups.
 7  683                  One, that ethnic broadcasting in
 8     Canada has evolved and it is an important activity to
 9     be nurtured by the CRTC.
10  684                  Two, there are distinct differences
11     between mere foreign services being available to ethnic
12     Canadians and home grown Canadian ethnic broadcasting. 
13     One of the most important differences is Cancon
14     programming.
15  685                  Three, there is great need and demand
16     for a national multicultural/multilingual television
17     network to broadcast in basic cable.  The CRTC should
18     consider the licensing of such a network as a priority. 
19     Why should ethnics always pay for the possibility of
20     receiving service in their languages.
21  686                  Four, ethnic Cancon should be just as
22     vibrant and varied as any other Canadian television
23     programming.  In fact, there should be more
24     opportunities for international co-production in the
25     case of ethnic programming which by nature often covers


 1     two or more perspectives, like Hispanic Canadians, et
 2     cetera.
 3  687                  Fifth, the Canadian television
 4     support programs must also support Canadian ethnic
 5     programming so that it can reach its true potential --
 6     higher budget documentaries and investigative
 7     journalism, dramatic programming.
 8  688                  Hopefully, the CRTC once it has
 9     completed its review of broadcasting in Canada will
10     implement the necessary systems to ensure that concrete
11     programs and changes are made.  As I said at the
12     beginning, I have been at this for close to 30 years
13     and not much has changed.
14  689                  Thank you.
15  690                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
16     much, Ms. Sanchez de Malicki.  I am not going to ask
17     you questions.  You have provided a very thorough brief
18     here and thank you for presenting your views to us.
19  691                  MS SANCHEZ de MALICKI:  Thank you.
20  692                  MS RHÉAUME:  The next presentation is
21     by Mr. William Marshall, President of PolyMedia, a
22     Division of Cybermedia Inc.  If you will introduce the
23     rest of your party, Mr. Marshall.
25  693                  MR. MARSHALL:  Thank you.


 1  694                  Thank you, Madam Chair,
 2     Commissioners, ladies and gentlemen.  There are three
 3     of us here this evening and to establish our ethnicity
 4     I would introduce my colleague Ljubo Milinovic who came
 5     to Canada in a very unorthodox manner and a very speedy
 6     manner by leaving the former Yugoslavia, and Sari Ruda
 7     who came to Canada in a much more restrained and
 8     refined manner by leaving England.  I myself am a son
 9     of Scotland and we understand about separatism and some
10     of the other events that reflect our nation in Canada. 
11     I am proud to say that we are the only English-speaking
12     member of the countries that speak English that are
13     everyone else says should have interpreters at all
14     times.
15  695                  We are at PolyMedia created to cater
16     to the ethnic marketplace within the broadcast arena. 
17     We are exclusive Canadian agents on behalf of foreign
18     broadcasters and we are trying to identify
19     opportunities and promote their services within Canada.
20  696                  Our roster of representation is
21     constantly growing as it fulfils its mandate to reach
22     every major group in Canada with the best in original
23     programming from each of those countries.  We currently
24     have eight of the number one or number two stations in
25     each country in the world under contract and six more


 1     in negotiation.  None of them are in competition with
 2     any licensed or planned Canadian ethnic channels that
 3     we know of, with the possible exception of ATN and that
 4     we have an Indian channel.
 5  697                  It is our view that the call is not
 6     before time that ethnic broadcasting and the new
 7     realities of ethnicity in Canada have changed since the
 8     1985 policies.  We do not believe and we have been told
 9     by the communities that we speak to that the goal of
10     making immigrants better Canadians is attainable by the
11     use of television and radio of the existing Canadian
12     production, the CBC or the CTV, as people have been
13     talking about.
14  698                  We think that if there are ways to
15     achieve this goal it is through three other ways,
16     education of young children -- children of immigrants,
17     the workplace where immigrants get jobs and you have to
18     speak a mutual language in order to get on, whether you
19     are a financial institution or a high-tech company or
20     working for a cab company.  Then the ethnic community
21     organizations which don't just reinforce the home
22     culture and the home language, but the organizations
23     which Canada is very richly endowed with, outreach
24     programs for the ethnic communities to work with the
25     larger Canadian communities.  They are also strong


 1     spokespeople for the needs and aspirations of the
 2     individual communities.
 3  699                  Speaking for television only, we
 4     think ethnic television has three key roles in Canada. 
 5     Number one is a link for the ethnic communities because
 6     of their homeland and culture, a way to deal with the
 7     isolation that some of the other speakers have
 8     addressed.
 9  700                  We see it as an aid to strengthening
10     ethnic community links in major centres of Canada and
11     across Canada, and a strengthening of the knowledge of
12     ethnic heritage, particularly for children of
13     immigrants who are gradually immersed in the large
14     Canadian community.
15  701                  Three major shifts have taken place
16     worldwide since the establishment of the CRTC's 1985
17     policy.  There has been mammoth growth of television
18     worldwide, with many more countries and many more
19     channels and the growth of delivery systems and private
20     competition for state run broadcast systems which
21     simply didn't exist 15 years ago.
22  702                  There is a huge and burgeoning growth
23     in global satellite delivery, allowing countries to
24     export day and date their programming.  You no longer
25     have to wait two weeks to see a cricket match or a


 1     formula-one race or a soccer game.  You can see it now.
 2  703                  As other speakers have eloquently
 3     pointed out, there has been a dramatic shift in the
 4     ethnic immigration to Canada.  You have got all the
 5     statistics in the world and if we take Toronto alone,
 6     with 33 per cent of Toronto residents saying that they
 7     use a language other than English or French exclusively
 8     in their home, I think it is obvious that the ability
 9     to receive television in your home language is crucial
10     to these people.
11  704                  We don't see a reason to change
12     multiculturalism as a goal and a useful way to be part
13     of this country for the foreseeable future.  In
14     television we see the emphasis shifting to monocultural
15     rather than multicultural and by that I mean in the two
16     stations that you have in Toronto and Montreal there is
17     ethnic programming to be sure, but it is a half an hour
18     a week.  I don't know that you can maintain your
19     Macedonian heritage on a half an hour a week or your
20     Somali heritage, but it doesn't seem likely.  More and
21     more those channels are looking for ways to make money
22     to stay alive.  They have found a way to do that is to
23     rerun American programming.  It is creeping up and
24     creeping up and I am sure that when you see the
25     responses that they have in terms of where they get


 1     money from, it is from advertisers looking to audiences
 2     who are watching that programming, not necessarily the
 3     narrowcasting.
 4  705                  So we think we should figure out
 5     first how to strengthen Canadian ethnic channels and
 6     then decide some criteria that would be useful to allow
 7     foreign and ethnic channels.  Both channels have one
 8     problem in common, carriage, access to the airwaves. 
 9     We think there should be funding for Canadian ethnic
10     programming.  We see three ways that this could be done
11     very specifically.  One is to take added profits from
12     advertising sales of American and foreign programming
13     on the multicultural channels and make a significant
14     portion of those revenues available to the Canadian
15     ethnic channels for programming purposes.
16  706                  Now, the Canadian companies and DTH
17     carriers are selling Canadian ethnic channels at $10
18     and $10 a month to subscribers when they put them on. 
19     A healthy proportion of their retained share of that
20     subscription fee should be designated for programming
21     Canadian ethnic channels and that simply isn't being
22     done just now.
23  707                  If foreign ethnic channels are
24     licensed, then the same commitment should be made
25     there.  A commitment should be made for the foreign


 1     channels to acquire and pay for new programming
 2     initiatives that are done by the Canadian ethnic
 3     channels.  If we are going to find criteria for
 4     licensing foreign ethnic channels, we would say that
 5     they include at least these three:  Proof of major
 6     success and penetration in the home country market;
 7     proven export value, with a significant track record of
 8     acceptance by immigrants in countries around the world,
 9     and full compliance with CRTC regulations and a
10     commitment to digital delivery, a la carte pay services
11     to the Canadian subscriber.
12  708                  Now, if I can go back for a moment to
13     the problems of carriage that have been mentioned
14     before.  I don't go to many CRTC hearings, but when the
15     cable companies come before you these days I don't know
16     how you keep a straight face and don't laugh them out
17     of the room, or else get really mad at them.  For 10
18     years they have been promising you, if you would just
19     let us do this, some day we will have digital delivery. 
20     If we could just have that, some day you could have
21     digital delivery.  Oh, let us spend more money getting
22     the NFL football games on on Sunday and pretty soon
23     we'll have digital delivery for ethnic programming.
24  709                  It has never happened.  It is never
25     going to happen.  The CRTC must make the cable


 1     companies move to digital carriage.  They keep saying
 2     they can't do it because the equipment doesn't work.
 3  710                  Well, there are 8 million homes in
 4     America magically getting their services from digital
 5     boxes.  It is not being done by tin cans and a piece of
 6     wire.  It is being done by the boxes that are available
 7     now and they are available in Canada and if you tell
 8     them you are going to put them off the air unless they
 9     let people have digital delivery, they will be able to
10     get them into Canadian homes as fast as those little
11     trucks can move around the neighbourhoods.
12  711                  And another way you could fund
13     digital conversion is to take this secret fund that
14     everybody keeps forgetting about.  The cable companies
15     ask for all sorts of congratulations for contributing
16     to the Canadian Television Fund.  Well, it's not their
17     money.  This was -- years ago 10 per cent was added to
18     everybody's cable bill because the cable systems
19     convinced the CRTC that they needed a 10 per cent
20     surcharge in order to improve equipment.  I don't know
21     about yours, but I haven't seen it at my house.
22  712                  They got this and then when the
23     deadline came for the ending of this, the deal was made
24     to say, "Well, let's take 5 per cent of that 10 per
25     cent and give that back to programming for Canadian


 1     television," but the other 5 per cent didn't go
 2     anywhere.  It stays in the pockets of the cable
 3     companies.
 4  713                  They could use that to do digital
 5     boxes.  They could use that for local ethnic
 6     programming.  They could do something, but they don't
 7     have to keep the money.
 8  714                  Talking about the foreign ethnic
 9     channels again, when we were talking about some of the
10     criteria involved.  There is no magic to the number 28
11     per cent, but three or four of the channels that we
12     represent have a market penetration of 20 per cent of
13     the ethnic community in England, Europe and the United
14     States, with subscribers willing almost universally to
15     pay approximately $20 a month for the single channel
16     that they get on top of the basic cable or DTH costs. 
17     So there clearly seems to be a reason that people want
18     to do that.  The service is needed and it is wanted.
19  715                  Operating an a la carte pay service
20     on a digital platform is fine for our clients, but so
21     far that platform is very short and narrow.
22  716                  So, we would make six recommendations
23     to make ethnic broadcasting in Canada more relevant to
24     the needs and desires of the immigrant communities.
25  717                  The first would be to maintain and


 1     strengthen the ethnic content of the two existing
 2     multicultural television channels.
 3  718                  The second would be to support the
 4     newly-licensed Canadian ethnic specialty services and
 5     increase their carriage nationally.
 6  719                  Three would be to allow these
 7     Canadian ethnic specialty channels to experiment with
 8     regional and national content for their singular ethnic
 9     markets and allow the maximum flexibility for them to
10     create Canadian programming in the ethnic languages or
11     English or French as they see fit.
12  720                  In terms of financing that kind of
13     programming, we look at at least one of the channels
14     that we represent which in England is spending 35 per
15     cent of its programming dollars in the United Kingdom
16     producing United Kingdom programming for the ethnic
17     channel.  I think most of the major channels around the
18     world would have no problem doing that sort of thing.
19  721                  We think that the fourth
20     recommendation is to support the licensing of foreign
21     ethnic channels with a proven international audience
22     and with support in Canada.
23  722                  Fifth, we would suggest that you
24     encourage in the strongest possible ways cable
25     companies to meet their oft-promised and


 1     under-delivered digital programming commitments.
 2  723                  Finally, we would encourage digital
 3     delivery of ethnic services on DTH and MMDS systems as
 4     a condition of licence to match the new delivery
 5     systems that will theoretically be installed by the
 6     cable companies.
 7  724                  Thank you very much.
 8  725                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner
 9     Langford has a couple of questions for you.
10  726                  Thank you, Mr. Marshall.
11  727                  COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thanks very
12     much, Mr. Marshall.
13  728                  Your colleague, Sari Ruda, who was
14     here last night may have told you that we had some
15     views that weren't quite identical with yours in
16     certain areas.  I think the main thrust of what you are
17     saying is generally appreciated, but there were a
18     couple of areas.  Mainly in the area of licensing
19     foreign ethnic channels, where other commentators spoke
20     out quite strongly against it.
21  729                  Their point, and I always hate to try
22     to take a point just on a 10-minute presentation, but I
23     think it was that if we bring in a foreign ethnic
24     channel we will stifle the incentive for local talent
25     and local production because they just won't be able to


 1     compete.  This full blown, as found service will be
 2     there, assuming carriage, and for these people working
 3     out of their production equivalents of what the
 4     propeller heads call the skunk works or whatever, they
 5     just won't be able to compete with this.  I just wonder
 6     how you respond to that problem.
 7  730                  MR. MARSHALL:  Yes.  I think we
 8     pointed out a couple of ways in which more revenues
 9     could be available for local ethnic programming.  I
10     think it is true it would be folly to use the Canadian
11     airwaves, a Canadian entity that is owned by all of us
12     sheerly for the profit of outsiders.
13  731                  But I think one of the ways in which
14     you could add to the financing that would be available
15     and add to international value of Canadian ethnic
16     talent, and I guess I look to the music industry this
17     way too.  As you in the radio business increase
18     Canadian content, then magically the stars that have
19     always been here in Canada got played enough and had
20     enough money to then go to the United States and the
21     world market and become the major stars that they are
22     now.
23  732                  I think I have said that some of the
24     channels that we are talking about representing have no
25     problem whatsoever in saying our people around the


 1     world all have relatives, not just in their home
 2     country, but in other countries around the world,
 3     including Canada.  Obviously, we are one of the major
 4     basins of immigration.  So, why wouldn't it make sense
 5     for them to pay for the licensing of Canadian talent
 6     and Canadian productions and put it on the air around
 7     the world.  So, it wouldn't just be something that
 8     would help here, but it would help that talent have
 9     exposure around the world.
10  733                  COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thanks very
11     much.
12  734                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
13     much, Mr. --
14  735                  MS RUDA:  May I answer that question
15     as well?  I'm sorry, I'm part of the team.  Is that all
16     right.
17  736                  COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  No problem. 
18     Carry on.
19  737                  MS RUDA:  I would just like to say
20     that in the work that we do we involve ourselves very
21     much with the community groups and we liaise all the
22     time with them.  We go to their events.  We get to know
23     them.  I think there is room for the co-existence of
24     both Canadian produced channels -- I mean programming
25     and channels, as well as foreign channels.


 1  738                  When we tell them what we are
 2     thinking of doing, they say to us, "This is fabulous. 
 3     We love that channel.  We can't wait to get it.  Work
 4     hard and get it in for us."
 5  739                  I say, "Well, what about the existing
 6     channels?"  They say, "Well, that's fine too because
 7     that gives us a local perspective, but what we miss is
 8     finding out what is happening at home.  We want to know
 9     what is happening at home.  We don't want to live there
10     any more.  We like living in Canada, but we need -- we
11     want to be able to touch what goes on."
12  740                  So, I think there is room for both
13     things to co-exist, particularly if the foreign
14     channels could be encouraged to perhaps put some of
15     their money into production here, so that there could
16     be some kind of a joint venture in production, that
17     would soften the blow and it would allow for
18     opportunities to go, as Bill said, both sides of the
19     border.  So that not only the Canadian talent would
20     merely service the Canadian market, but also be
21     exported.
22  741                  COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  But we had a
23     gentleman here yesterday who was -- I'm afraid I don't
24     remember his name.  He was responsible for putting on
25     one hour of Serbian broadcasting -- you remember that


 1     gentleman -- a week.  He talked about the announcements
 2     from home and how they worked so hard to put this on. 
 3     They had no budget.  Everybody is a volunteer.  He also
 4     does the newspaper, this guy, and he makes me feel like
 5     I don't work for a living he does so much.  How does he
 6     compete, for example, and they may be a slightly
 7     bizarre example, but if we were to bring in, if we were
 8     to license a full Serbian channel?  Where does this man
 9     go with his hour?  I notice that half of the team is
10     not answering.
11  742                  MR. MARSHALL:  We are in a discussion
12     about components of the former Yugoslavia.
13  743                  MS RUDA:  We should explain that
14     Ljubo is from Croatia, so we were wondering how to
15     answer that question.
16  744                  COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I am just
17     using it as an example.  I don't want to get into
18     politics.  Please, no politics.  This is strictly
19     programming, not politics.
20  745                  MR. MARSHALL:  All broadcasting is
21     politics.
22  746                  The answer to that is I don't know. 
23     Is there a big enough audience in Canada for a Serbian
24     channel?  If there is, there should be a Serbian
25     channel.  If there is enough audience for a sliver of


 1     Serbian programming, then there should be Serbian
 2     programs.  If Serbians watch the show or other people
 3     who are interested in things Serbian watch the show, it
 4     will attract this audience and it will survive and
 5     prosper.
 6  747                  If it has no audience and no back-up
 7     and no popularity, then it will wither on the vine and
 8     I guess that's what happens in everything.
 9  748                  COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I don't want
10     to beat this to death, but this does go to the heart of
11     an issue that we have heard here I think over the last
12     two days repeatedly.  It seems to me that there is a
13     problem here, that if we are to encourage and to
14     cultivate local homegrown talent of a multicultural
15     nature, the type that our friend --
16  749                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Bora Dragasevich.
17  750                  COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thank you. 
18     That he was speaking about, the kind of access he has
19     been frustrated not to be able to obtain, how do we do
20     that if we bring in full-blown a foreign competitor? 
21     How does these people get access?
22  751                  MR. MARSHALL:  I think I tried, but
23     obviously failed to communicate what I was saying. 
24     First of all, this isn't just an ethnic problem.  This
25     is a Canadian problem.  The CRTC allows television


 1     networks in this country to use the majority of prime
 2     time for American shows.  Canadian actors, other
 3     members of ACTRA who have been card carrying for a long
 4     time find it difficult to get jobs because there aren't
 5     enough jobs available.
 6  752                  I think in terms of -- is it going to
 7     be that ethnic programming is going to produce a
 8     million new stars in various ethnic groups across
 9     Canada?  It hasn't happened for Canadian French or
10     Canadian English talents.  No likelihood it will happen
11     any faster for them, except it is quite possible, as I
12     said, Canadian television is not exported around the
13     world.  Canadian programming is exported around the
14     world, but no one has expressed any interest in
15     Canadian channels around the world, with the exception
16     perhaps of MuchMusic selling the format.
17  753                  But if somebody uses the money that
18     the foreign channel which is global and has 180 million
19     viewers around the world, or 280 million viewers around
20     the world, sees a show produced on a professional level
21     by somebody from that ethnic persuasion in Toronto and
22     they like that person, they are going to want it.  Not
23     just for the half hour or hour that that show is on,
24     but possibly for them to be an international star, as I
25     gave you the example of the Canadian stars singing


 1     country music or singing ballads or whatever.  They
 2     only became magically stars around the rest of the
 3     world when they had access.
 4  754                  Right now it is hard enough for a
 5     Canadian ethnic broadcast talent to get exposure in
 6     this country.  There is no exposure for them
 7     internationally.  This is one way to do it.
 8  755                  MS RUDA:  Commissioner Langford, I
 9     would just like to address that question that you
10     asked.  How do you account for the problem which was
11     mentioned yesterday with the grey and black market?  We
12     have got a lot of grey and black market dishes here and
13     there are many different reasons that people have been
14     buying grey and black market dishes, but in the ethnic
15     communities it is because they wish to receive
16     foreign-language programming.
17  756                  So, while I am not advocating that we
18     have to totally change everything that is going on in
19     Canada, there is obviously a market other than just
20     people who are in remote areas who need to receive some
21     type of television.  There are people who -- again, I
22     agree with you -- who are ethnics and who want to
23     receive their own programming that is being made
24     available in the States, freely available, and they are
25     picking it up over the satellite.  Can you perhaps


 1     answer that for me, how that should be dealt with?
 2  757                  COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  We are here,
 3     as my Chair just reminded me, to give you the last
 4     word.  So I am going to do that and we are going to
 5     move on.
 6  758                  MS RUDA:  No, you can't get out of
 7     that.  Answer that question.
 8  759                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Oh yes he can.
 9  760                  COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  And we are
10     going to move on to the next person, but we will answer
11     that question.  That's why we are here is to ultimately
12     answer those questions and we will struggle along, but
13     thank you for your assistance.
14  761                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
15     much.  I am sorry to have to sort of curb Stuart's
16     desire to engage in a longer conversation with you, but
17     we have 32 more parties to hear from tonight.
18  762                  We are quite willing to stay as long
19     as that takes, but I am not sure about the 32nd party
20     who is here at midnight.  So, I am going to try and
21     move us along.
22  763                  In spite of what I said earlier that
23     we would wrap up at six o'clock and break for half an
24     hour, we are going to hear from two more parties before
25     we break.


 1  764                  Madam Secretary, please call the next
 2     party.
 3  765                  MS RHÉAUME:  The next presenter is
 4     Bora Hincer, President of the Federation of Canadian
 5     Turkish Associations.  If you would like to introduce
 6     your party.  Bora Hincer.
 7  766                  We will move on to the next party and
 8     come back to that one later perhaps.
 9  767                  Professor Spyros Flengas of the
10     Hellenic-Canadian Federation of Ontario.
12  768                  DR. FLENGAS:  Yes.
13  769                  Ladies and gentlemen, Mr. Chairman,
14     good evening.
15  770                  My name is Spyros Flengas and I am
16     the President of the Hellenic-Canadian Federation of
17     Ontario, the organization which represents the
18     communities and associations in ontario of about
19     150,000 members of the Greek community.  Next to me is
20     the Secretary General of the Federation, Mr. George
21     Efstratiadis.
22  771                  We welcome the opportunity to appear
23     before the CRTC and give our opinion on the issue of
24     ethnic broadcasting.  it is our opinion that the
25     current policy of the CRTC to protect ethnic


 1     broadcasting and to allow cultural minorities to have
 2     their own television and radio stations is a sound one
 3     and much needed in our communities.
 4  772                  Today we are going to discuss out of
 5     the many possible issues four issues, namely the
 6     evaluation of the present system, then its ability to
 7     serve the needs of our community.  Third, the point of
 8     access and, fourth, the costs of some of these
 9     programs.  I will start with the evaluation of the
10     present system.
11  773                  Unfortunately, the mainstream media
12     neither have the economic interest nor the time to
13     cover the activities and interests of our communities
14     and associations.  in our cast, it is almost
15     exclusively that the Greek media cover our events and
16     carry out messages to our people.
17  774                  We consider it a blessing that the
18     new digital technology has allowed the CRTC the
19     opportunity to license third language ethnic television
20     program specialty channels.
21  775                  We are grateful that now, through
22     Odyssey Television, as well as the other Greek TV
23     programs, the Greek Canadian community of Ontario and
24     Canada at large has its own channel in which the
25     interests of our youth and their aspirations may be


 1     realized and through which our people may be informed,
 2     educated and entertained not only with programs from
 3     Greece, but also from our communities in Canada.
 4  776                  Mr. George Efstratiadis can continue.
 5  777                  MR. EFSTRATIADIS:  Thank you,
 6     Professor Flengas.
 7  778                  I am going to draw your attention on
 8     the first issue, which is the one of serving and
 9     satisfying the needs of the community.
10  779                  Our people have been greatly confused
11     regarding other GREEk TV signals which are freely
12     advertised in our community and are fed by satellite
13     from the United States of America.  The question to ask
14     is:  Are they legal or not? they naturally wonder.  And
15     if they are not, why the government and the CRTC do not
16     stop them.  It is a question which has not been
17     addressed adequately by our government, so that our
18     people can have a better picture.  Perhaps some
19     relevant CRTC dissemination of information towards the
20     minority communities might be the solution.
21  780                  The truth is, however, as we see it,
22     our people wish to see programs both from Greece and
23     from here.  Our local TV programs are very important
24     for the advancement of our community, news and activity
25     projects and the programs from Greece are important


 1     mainly for our entertainment and news.  Therefore, the
 2     CRTC's present policy to force TV programmers to have
 3     locally produced Canadian programs along with programs
 4     from Greece is an important policy to be continued. 
 5     Having only programs from Greece does not help our
 6     associations and communities to promote themselves. 
 7     The local programs, while promoting us, they also
 8     promote Canadian citizenship and Canadian unity.  Also,
 9     local programs need the entertainment and news programs
10     from Greece.  Thus, the present balance in the CRTC's
11     policy is a good one.
12  781                  The second issue is a question of
13     access.  I wish to draw to your attention the question
14     of access to the distribution of ethnic broadcasters. 
15     We know that it has taken Odyssey more than two years
16     to find a distributor to carry their signal to our
17     people.  This we find unacceptable that mainstream
18     media do find accommodation in all the distribution
19     systems, while ethnic channels, such as Odyssey, had
20     access just a month ago and only with some
21     distributors.
22  782                  We believe that every Canadian,
23     regardless of geography and regardless if one resides
24     in a single or multiple dwelling, or even more
25     importantly regardless of ethnicity, must have equal


 1     access to the Canadian medium of their choice.  It is
 2     especially difficult for our people who reside in
 3     multiple apartment units.  Most of the management
 4     companies do not allow them to receive Odyssey from
 5     satellite dishes.  And when they do, they find that
 6     cable companies have exclusivity on TV distribution,
 7     although they do not yet have digital boxes to give to
 8     the people.  This is an unfair benefit given to cable
 9     companies which often force us to buy the packages they
10     alone design, but we must pay because we like only the
11     signal in that package.
12  783                  The third issue is that of cost. 
13     Most of our people are willing to pay Odyssey the
14     monthly fee of $14.95.  However, the distributors force
15     you to pay in addition of the above amount,
16     approximately $22 per month for basic mainstream
17     channels and also $11 a month for the rental of their
18     digital decoder.  Therefore, each Greek Canadian who
19     wishes to support its own channel must pay an average
20     of $48 a month, most of which benefits the distributor
21     and not our community channel.
22  784                  We find it repulsive that the
23     consumer must finance a distributor's equipment in
24     addition for the cost of the product they deliver to
25     our homes.  This is a huge disincentive for the support


 1     of third-language channels.  Distributors benefit a lot
 2     as it is now and they must not be allowed to benefit
 3     even more from small community channels.
 4  785                  Ladies and gentlemen, the last
 5     thought I wish to leave with you is the fact that most
 6     of the ethnic communities in Canada are mature enough
 7     and deserve to have their own media with the blessing
 8     of our government and government agencies, such as the
 9     CRTC.
10  786                  We strongly believe that a cultural
11     community in Canada which is strong in preserving its
12     own culture -- and the media play a central in this
13     area -- it is also strong in preserving Canadian unity
14     and identity.
15  787                  Thank you very much.
16  788                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
17     much, gentlemen.
18  789                  MS RHÉAUME:  The next presentation is
19     by Ms Yvonne Bogorya, President of the Polish-Canadian
20     Women's Federation.
22  790                  MS BOGORYA:  Thank you for allowing
23     me to speak before the break.
24  791                  I am starting with a problem
25     statement and then the key issues and afterwards I will


 1     answer the three questions that you were posing in your
 2     letter.
 3  792                  We feel that there is a strong need
 4     for the CRTC to continue to encourage the growth of
 5     ethnic broadcasting, which means that we feel that you
 6     have already done a lot, but there is a need for more
 7     because with the growing ethnic market there is a need
 8     for increased ethnic programming.
 9  793                  We need to determine clearly the
10     definition of the term "Canadian content".  We feel
11     that ethnic broadcasting should be part of it.  We
12     don't want to be isolated.  We feel that we would like
13     to communicate information and share our cultural
14     heritage with others.
15  794                  We also need to preserve the language
16     and culture and we need to have access to the most
17     recent technology, interacting the world that is a
18     global village.  more financial and technical resources
19     are needed to produce programs in languages other than
20     English and French.
21  795                  What are the key issues?  First of
22     all, the mainstream TV and radio programming very often
23     doesn't portray the ethnic groups, particularly when I
24     talk about Polish-Canadian women, hardly ever do I see
25     any portrayal of Polish women.  The same refers to


 1     other, Spanish and other groups.
 2  796                  So, I think we need to think about --
 3     the Canadian population being diverse, we need to be
 4     reflected in the programs and on the screen.
 5  797                  In view of recent statistics, when
 6     you look at the programs and the population size and
 7     the time that each station has, sometimes this is
 8     inadequate.  I was looking at the Polish program, let's
 9     say we are the fourth biggest group in Ontario and we
10     are allocated -- we have two TV station programs, a
11     CFMT program, "Variety" and City-TV, "Polish Studio"
12     and six radio programs.  The total time is three hours
13     a week and 15.8 hours radio time.  So, it's three hours
14     a week TV time and 15.8 radio time.
15  798                  Whereas the Portuguese group, for
16     example, which is the third largest, has 13 hours of TV
17     time and 87 hours of radio time.  So there are some
18     disproportions in terms of population served,
19     geographical range, geographical access because some
20     areas don't receive programs in time to allow for
21     adequate access to other Polish Canadian communities.
22  799                  For example, I remember when we
23     supported the CFMT application to broadcast their
24     programming in Vancouver.  We have a large
25     Polish-Canadian community in Vancouver and it was


 1     denied, unfortunately.
 2  800                  The third issue is funding of course. 
 3     Funding for research and Canadian-based productions, to
 4     enhance presentation of ethnocultural groups, the
 5     heritage and portrayal of ethnic women, immigrants and
 6     members of the community.
 7  801                  For many members of the
 8     Polish-Canadian community, especially those who
 9     experience barriers in benefiting from the mainstream
10     programming, these programs are the only source of
11     information and the only contact with the community, so
12     they play a very important role.  Thank you for their
13     existence.  We don't want to have less.  We want to
14     have more.
15  802                  Community events and programs devoted
16     to cultural heritage and achievements of Polish
17     Canadians would not be possible to be received without
18     those channels.  The multicultural TV is very important
19     in here and we feel that other channels could also
20     contain some programs that would talk about heritage of
21     Canadians in Canada who are part of multiculturalism.
22  803                  I remember -- I have been talking
23     about multiculturalism for 20 or 25 years and as Elvira
24     said, we still want to see tangible results.
25  804                  MS SANCHEZ DE MALICKI:  We are still


 1     very dumb.
 2  805                  MS BOGORYA:  We are here.
 3  806                  Ethnic communities often struggle
 4     with insufficient financing to do research and to do
 5     creative and challenging programs.  We need up-to-date
 6     technology, studio space, accessibility to camera and
 7     cameramen time.  Very often this becomes a limitation
 8     because cameramen cannot leave a studio and the event
 9     is somewhere else, or there are some problems with
10     logistics.
11  807                  Script and production money, to
12     create really challenging programs, special effects,
13     lighting -- more ambitious projects could be realized
14     with professional and financial support.  It is my
15     contention that the so-called Canadian content programs
16     could benefit from the talent and expertise available
17     in our ethnic communities.  Speaking on behalf of my
18     organization, I would like to see more portrayal of
19     women.
20  808                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Me too.
21  809                  MS BOGORYA:  Also, we would like to
22     see the contribution of Canadians to the world of arts,
23     business, politics, culture, more information about
24     international affairs.  It doesn't have to be a foreign
25     program purchased.  There could be programs containing


 1     more information about Europe, Asia and South America
 2     and so on.
 3  810                  So we don't feel that the current
 4     programs are not meeting our needs.  They are meeting
 5     our essential needs, but we look at enhancing and
 6     enriching and growth into the millennium.
 7  811                  Given the democratic changes that
 8     have taken place in Canada, how can the needs and
 9     interests of ethnocultural communities be served?
10  812                  Well, we feel that current
11     demographics indicate growing diversity of Canadian
12     population.  As my predecessor said, it is not
13     reflected very often in the media.
14  813                  We should think about being part of
15     the global village and we need to report community
16     events, not only mainstream events.
17  814                  The changing needs of ethnocultural
18     audiences need to be researched.  I think there should
19     be some survey of ethnic communities from the
20     perspective of their changing needs, interests and
21     concerns, especially the new immigrants coming in. 
22     There might be some gap between the various age groups,
23     geographical areas, different interests.
24  815                  Better use of available technology is
25     very important here and computer literacy.  I must say


 1     that very often because of financial limitations we are
 2     not so -- access is not adequate enough because we are
 3     sort of disadvantaged in being able to use the
 4     available and existing technology.  So, we are talking
 5     about cyperspace and using Internet and not everybody
 6     has access to it.  So, this is a key issue:  How can we
 7     participate fully in the information highway and
 8     ethnocultural stations need access to the resources to
 9     do that.
10  816                  The third question:  Should there be
11     a priority on the development of Canadian ethnocultural
12     services rather than importing foreign services?  Yes,
13     I say there should be a priority for Canadian
14     production.
15  817                  The development of Canadian
16     ethnocultural services programs that are important to
17     our community, it is very important.  Although there
18     should be a balance in importing foreign services, I
19     agree with the current regulations which produce such a
20     balance.  I think we have already a good mix of how
21     much we can have foreign content and how much Canadian,
22     but there should be some focus on documentary programs,
23     dramas, all kinds of productions which reflect ethnic
24     groups in Canada and would show their contribution to
25     Canadian culture.


 1  818                  These programs could be exported.  I
 2     mean we could be visible on the international scene if
 3     we export our own programs outside.
 4  819                  We also feel that there is more
 5     knowledge and understanding of our contribution of each
 6     ethnic group, so there should be some communication and
 7     some sharing and exchanging, so we are not isolated in
 8     separate ghettos.  I think this theme of better
 9     understanding dialogue and understanding of our
10     traditions and contributions to Canadian history,
11     political, social and cultural life is very important.
12  820                  Also, we need to think about our next
13     generation of young Canadians who need to be proud of
14     their ancestry and be aware of their place in Canadian
15     history.  For them it's a sense of preservation of
16     their identity.  They need to know that they are
17     neither French nor English, that they belong to other
18     language groups and they should be as proud of their
19     origin.
20  821                  I think by portraying the subject,
21     the themes, the historical programs or programs that
22     talk about their heritage will improve their sense of
23     self-identity.  So, here the media will play an
24     educational role.
25  822                  Sometimes programs could be broadcast


 1     in English or French, as long as they also talk about
 2     ethnic groups.  So, it's another area to look at in
 3     terms of content.
 4  823                  International affairs -- I think we
 5     do need a little bit more information about what is
 6     happening in other countries, Europe, Asia and Africa,
 7     South America.  I think there would be an interest in
 8     audiences to listen to those events.  Just to give you
 9     an example, the current events in Central Europe,
10     Poland is becoming part of NATO and, of course, this is
11     starting some interest.  People want to know more about
12     what is happening within the European Union.  So these
13     events are of interest to our audiences.
14  824                  Of course, the ethnocultural stations
15     are well equipped because of the knowledge of the
16     language to transfer that information.
17  825                  I will present a more detailed brief
18     later on.  I am just trying to cover the main points.
19  826                  Thank you.
20  827                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Ms Bogorya, I want
21     to explore one area and that is actually an area that a
22     number of presenters have raised today.  As you know,
23     the CRTC is involved in a process looking at the whole
24     issue of new media and a number of the people who came
25     before us to make presentations talked about the


 1     ability of the Internet to supply programming, I guess
 2     at the point at which television and the Internet
 3     converge.  The ability of the Internet to supply
 4     programming for ethnocultural groups who are not
 5     currently being served by the traditional distribution
 6     system.
 7  828                  I am wondering if that has anything
 8     to do with the fact that you mentioned it or what
 9     aspect of the Internet are you exploring in your work
10     on this issue?
11  829                  MS BOGORYA:  We may have some
12     generation gap here.  Of course, younger persons are
13     more perhaps well versed in the Internet than the older
14     generation.  But apart from that, as I said the
15     financial issue of accessibility to ethnocultural
16     groups would be a problem.  I think you may lose some
17     contact that you already have through ethnocultural
18     stations.
19  830                  I don't think the Internet would --
20     eventually in the future it is possible, but I don't
21     think we are there as of yet.
22  831                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Generally, the TV
23     image is quite small, so it's pretty hard to sit in
24     front of your computer monitor and watch a program.
25  832                  MS BOGORYA:  It will happen.


 1  833                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  But I mean with
 2     web-TV, the evolution of web-TV, it has been suggested
 3     to us that that is one of the ways of sort of freeing
 4     up the logjam of capacity issues in terms of delivering
 5     more niche programming services to the ethnocultural
 6     communities.
 7  834                  MS BOGORYA:  What is more important
 8     is this is another media, but what is more important is
 9     that you do portray ethnocultural groups in these
10     programs, that you have more input, that we have more
11     voice.  I think this is a more important issue than how
12     we are communicating -- I mean through what channel.
13  835                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much
14     for your contribution this afternoon.
15  836                  We are going to take a break now.  We
16     are running about a half an hour late.  We will be
17     returning at 7 p.m. and will continue on with our list
18     of participants at that point.
19  837                  Thank you.
20     --- Short recess at 1830 / Courte suspension à 1830
21     --- Upon resuming at 1900 / Reprise à 1900
22  838                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Ladies and
23     gentlemen, I would ask you to take your seats.
24  839                  I would like to remind any
25     participants who are going to be presenting tonight


 1     that we are endeavouring to keep to about 10 minutes
 2     for the oral presentation, so that if we do want to ask
 3     questions there is time without us having to stay here
 4     until 1:00 in the morning.  So, anything you can do to
 5     be succinct would be very much appreciated.
 6  840                  Madam Secretary, please call the
 7     first participant.
 8  841                  MS RHÉAUME:  The next participant is
 9     Mr. Michael Caine of CJMR Radio.
11  842                  MR. CAINE:  Thank you very much.  I
12     am going to talk about something completely different. 
13     Radio, and ethnic broadcasting radio.
14  843                  I am the President of CJMR 1320 Radio
15     Limited, a full ethnic station licensed at Mississauga,
16     ontario.  With me is harry McDonald, CJMR's
17     Vice-President of Sales and Marketing.
18  844                  Throughout your public consultations
19     I am sure you will hear a lot about heritage.  Well,
20     CJMR's heritage is that its parent company, CHWO Radio
21     Limited, was one of the first broadcast stations in
22     Canada, radio or TV, to recognize the need for ethnic
23     programming when, in 1957 it began broadcasting a
24     significant and regular schedule of third-language
25     services.  In 1993, we consolidated the format of our


 1     two stations by transferring all of CHWO's ethnic
 2     programming to CJMR, thus making it a full ethnic
 3     station.
 4  845                  Because of our extensive experience
 5     in ethnic broadcasting,both Mr. McDonald and I were
 6     heavily involved in the consultation, development and
 7     evolution of the CRTC policy reflecting Canada's
 8     linguistic and cultural diversity that was released in
 9     1985 -- although at the time, Mr. McDonald was
10     Vice-President of Channel 47, CFMT-TV.
11  846                  We are pleased to say that this
12     policy was well conceived, thorough and visionary.  It
13     has served the industry, Canada's multicultural
14     communities and the country as a whole extremely well. 
15     In fact, it is our position that today, almost 15 years
16     after its introduction, this policy does not need to be
17     changed a great deal in order for it to remain relevant
18     and effective.
19  847                  The call for comments to review this
20     policy was also thorough.  We will be submitting a
21     complete, written submission in a month's time, but
22     today, because of time constraints, we will focus on
23     what we feel are some of the more important issues
24     raised in your call.
25  848                  The first item we would like to


 1     address is the types of ethnic programming.  We think
 2     that the policy could be streamlined considerably and
 3     made to be more effectively relevant if the
 4     identification of types of ethnic programming were to
 5     be eliminated all together or, at least, reduced
 6     considerably.
 7  849                  We have come to accept that any
 8     program that is directed at a specific and distinct
 9     community whose cultural and/or linguistic heritage is
10     other than English, French or native Canadian is indeed
11     an ethnic program.  it is really irrelevant what
12     language is spoken in the program.
13  850                  In fact, with five different choices
14     of types of ethnic programming, things can fall between
15     the cracks.  For example, under the current policy,
16     broadcasters can, and we and the Commission are aware
17     of instances where they have, air programs in English
18     that are directed at a specific ethnic community but
19     claim it as Type E programming, instead of B or,
20     perhaps, C.  Since the Type E designation does not
21     restrict the conventional broadcaster to the 15 per
22     cent limit, he or she can go about soliciting listeners
23     and advertising from that targeted ethnic community
24     unchecked and unfettered, to the potential detriment of
25     an existing ethnic broadcaster.


 1  851                  A clear, simple and streamlined
 2     definition of what is ethnic programming ought to be
 3     established.  In other words, its a program principally
 4     directed at a distinct ethnocultural group or it is
 5     not.
 6  852                  The next area that we would like to
 7     address is the availability, accessability and
 8     diversity of ethnic service.
 9  853                  We feel that the current policy
10     balances pretty well the academic desire to encourage
11     programming services to as many different and distinct
12     cultural groups as possible with the reality of
13     restrictions due to the availability of time and the
14     financial and market conditions required to support
15     individual ethnic programs.
16  854                  In the Greater Toronto Area, the
17     nation's most culturally diverse centre, there are six
18     ethnic radio stations, one ethnic television station,
19     three ethnic specialty TV services, two non-ethnic
20     television stations carrying ethnic programming, eight
21     ethnic SCMO services, two closed circuit ethnic radio
22     services on cable, two campus radio stations carrying
23     ethnic programming and at least five ethnic services on
24     the list of Part II eligible satellite services.
25  855                  Our guess would be that there are


 1     very few ethnic communities within the GTA that are not
 2     being served by the ethnic broadcast media at the
 3     present time.
 4  856                  And, by and large, we suspect that
 5     the amount and variety of ethnic broadcast services in
 6     other centre across Canada is proportionate,
 7     appropriate and commensurate to each community's
 8     linguistic and cultural diversity.  Such is the natural
 9     balance of things in a free and market-driven system.
10  857                  At the same time, through the public
11     application process that looks at the issues on a
12     case-by-case basis and the Commission's regulatory
13     control by way of conditions of licence, the playing
14     field is kept relatively level, protecting the
15     viability of existing ethnic licensees.
16  858                  Thus, we feel that the ways and means
17     of providing ethnic broadcast services as governed by
18     the existing policy need not be changed and the
19     existing distinctions still work well, that is:
20  859                  One, mainstream stations can
21     broadcast up to 15 per cent ethnic programming without
22     CRTC approval;
23  860                  Two, stations wishing to do between
24     15 per cent and 40 per cent ethnic must publicly apply
25     to the Commission to do so and a favourable decision


 1     might include specific conditions of licence;
 2  861                  And, three, stations wishing to
 3     achieve full ethnic status, i.e. not less than 60 per
 4     cent ethnic programming, must also publicly apply to
 5     the Commission and, again, a favourable decision would
 6     be subject to specific conditions of licence.
 7  862                  In this regard, we concur that the
 8     lack of available radio frequencies at least, precludes
 9     the establishment of a single ethnic language service. 
10     We think, therefore, that the Commission ought to
11     continue to impose a condition of licence that a
12     minimum number of distinct and different ethnocultural
13     communities be served with that number determined on a
14     case-by-case basis.  Otherwise, the practice that has
15     come to be known as "cream skimming" of the larger,
16     more lucrative ethnic markets becomes a detrimental
17     factor.
18  863                  We do not agree, however, with the
19     suggestion that larger ethnocultural groups be used to
20     subsidize the delivery of less profitable programming
21     to smaller groups.  To include such an imposition in an
22     ethnic broadcasting policy is unrealistic and
23     unreasonable.
24  864                  As the Commission is aware, CJMR
25     operates primarily on the brokerage system.  Prior to


 1     1985, we fought long and hard against the stigmas that
 2     had been erroneously associated with brokerage and we
 3     are pleased that the current policy not only recognizes
 4     this method of providing ethnic broadcasting services
 5     as bona fide, but actually credits it with stimulating
 6     the development of the Canadian production of ethnic
 7     programs which might not otherwise have been produced.
 8  865                  Commercially licensed broadcast
 9     stations are businesses.  Whether you are a
10     conventional station or an ethnic licensee, if that
11     segment of the audience that you wish to reach, be it
12     in a single program or in your overall format, does not
13     support your efforts in either listenership or, more
14     importantly, revenue, then you have failed in a
15     fundamental requirement of staying in business -- make
16     a profit.  I suggest that if it is deemed to be
17     worthwhile, let the government subsidize unprofitable
18     programming to smaller groups through grants or by
19     requiring cable's community channel to carry such
20     programming on a non-commercial basis, which is what I
21     thought they were supposed to be doing in the first
22     place.
23  866                  Someone once described our ethnic
24     markets as moving targets.  It's true:  Changing
25     immigration patterns, linguistic and cultural


 1     assimilation, shifts in socio-economic trends,
 2     political initiatives -- these and more require today's
 3     ethnic broadcaster to be even more flexible than ever
 4     before and offer a schedule of programming that not
 5     only responds to the demands of the ethnic
 6     market-place, but is also profitable.
 7  867                  At CJMR, we are pleased to be able to
 8     offer available time to any independent ethnic program
 9     producer who comes forward with a desire to inform and
10     entertain a particular ethnic community within our
11     coverage area.  Just as potential commercial licensees,
12     however, are asked to convince the Commission that
13     their proposal is financially viable, all we ask is
14     that the program become self-sustaining.
15  868                  Finally, a word or two about Canadian
16     content.  In the Commission's call for comments, it is
17     correctly stated that ethnic radio stations face a
18     considerable challenge in obtaining recordings that
19     qualify as Canadian suitable for ethnic programs and
20     that limited resources curtail an individual ethnic
21     licensee from being able to deliver Canadian talent
22     that reflects all of the significant ethnocultural
23     groups in its service area.
24  869                  Unfortunately, we are unable at this
25     time to give you any quantifiable data that could help


 1     in determining whether or not an increase from 7 per
 2     cent Cancon to , say 10 per cent or 12 per cent is
 3     warranted or achievable.  Our considerable experience
 4     gives us a gut feeling that an increase at this time
 5     would, in fact, prove to be very difficult.
 6  870                  A big part of the problem is, of
 7     course, not knowing what material is available.  That
 8     is why we are very interested in exploring the proposal
 9     that a pooling of resources, coupled with external
10     support -- financial and otherwise -- could be a very
11     positive step forward in increasing by a meaningful
12     degree the supply of Canadian ethnic music.  The
13     development of a national Canadian ethnic music
14     database, as suggested in the call for comments, would
15     be an extremely useful tool for ethnic programmers to
16     use in satisfying any Cancon requirement.
17  871                  Here's one possible suggestion: 
18     Change the qualifying criteria for ethnic Canadian
19     content from two out of four in the MAPL system to only
20     one out of four.  A lot of Canadian ethnic performers,
21     for example, record songs in other countries that were
22     not written or composed by a Canadian.  Hence, the
23     recording doesn't qualify as Cancon.  Some relaxation
24     of the criteria might help ethnic stations to increase
25     their Cancon quotas.  We might even be able to play


 1     Celine Dion for once and count her as Canadian.
 2  872                  We feel, then, that it would be
 3     premature to increase the Canadian content level for
 4     ethnic stations at this time.  Instead, a comprehensive
 5     investigation should be done to determine just how much
 6     Canadian ethnic material is currently available;
 7     develop an evolving database that all ethnic
 8     programmers could use; and then determine what increase
 9     in Cancon can be accomplished and how it ought to be
10     phased in.
11  873                  Ladies and gentlemen, I think I have
12     run out of time, so that concludes our remarks.
13  874                  Thank you for allowing us to
14     participate in this public consultation and we would be
15     happy to answer any questions you may have.
16  875                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you for
17     sharing your information and point of view with us, Mr.
18     Caine.  Commissioner Langford has a question for you.
19  876                  COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Just one
20     question because I have been dying to hear a little
21     more about radio.  We have heard a lot about
22     television.  It has been very interesting.
23  877                  One or two of the presenters this
24     evening spoke about a role for the CBC in television
25     and changing its role and perhaps making different


 1     roles nationally and locally.  Do you have any thoughts
 2     on what the CBC's role should be, either nationally or
 3     locally, in radio from an ethnic or third-language
 4     perspective?
 5  878                  MR. CAINE:  Far be it for me to
 6     program our national broadcaster, but let me try.
 7  879                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Everyone likes to
 8     try.
 9  880                  MR. CAINE:  I do believe that the CBC
10     has a role that it has not accepted completely yet to
11     reflect Canada's cultural mosaic in terms of its
12     programming in not only third languages, but in English
13     to communities that are not English, French or native
14     Canadian.
15  881                  I am not sure that they have indeed
16     reflected totally our nation.  You spoke earlier, you
17     were talking about television, Commissioner, in answer
18     to another question, about how does the CBC television
19     make its programming decisions when it has got
20     something in Yellowknife and it has this large and
21     diverse country to program to.
22  882                  But Yellowknife compared to the
23     ethnic communities of Canada is a spit in the ocean. 
24     If the CBC feels that it must give prominence to its
25     viewers or listeners in Yellowknife, nothing against


 1     Yellowknife of course, at the exclusion, however, of
 2     our ethnic communities, I don't think that's a real
 3     true picture of Canada.  With 50 per cent of our
 4     population not English, French or native, then I think
 5     they are missing the boat by not reflecting that
 6     diverse community of our country.
 7  883                  COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thanks very
 8     much.
 9  884                  MS RHÉAUME:  Our next speaker is Ms
10     Rose Sottile of the Italian Canadians, Toronto
11     District.
13  885                  MS SOTTILE:  Good evening.  My name
14     is Rose Sottile and I am a member of the National
15     Congress of Italian Canadians, Toronto District's Board
16     of Directors, and it gives me great pleasure to share
17     our views on the future of the CRTC's ethnic
18     programming policy.
19  886                  Emilio Bisceglia, the Congress'
20     President who prepared the brief, sends his regrets for
21     not being able to attend these hearings himself.
22  887                  Founded in 1960, the National
23     Congress of Italian Canadians, Toronto District, is an
24     umbrella organization that represents approximately
25     one-half million Canadians of Italian heritage who


 1     reside in the Greater Metropolitan Toronto area.  For
 2     four decades the National Congress of Italian
 3     Canadians, Toronto District, has successfully lobbied
 4     to preserve and promote the goals and aspirations of
 5     Canadians of Italian heritage in the areas of social,
 6     cultural, education and political interests.  This
 7     submission is part and parcel of the work that we
 8     undertake.
 9  888                  We advance that underlying the CRTC's
10     ethnic broadcasting policy is a belief that ethnic
11     radio and television undertakings should inform,
12     educate and entertain Canadians.  If we believe that
13     cultural and linguistic diversity are integral parts of
14     Canada and fundamental characteristics of our society,
15     then we must ensure that diversity is recognized and
16     celebrated on our airwaves.
17  889                  This policy renewal discussion will
18     help ensure that the broadcasting environment can
19     continue to meet these needs in today's changing world
20     and we congratulate the Commission for undertaking this
21     initiative.
22  890                  Among the issues that these hearings
23     will probe is the extent to which the present
24     broadcasting system serves Canada's ethnocultural
25     communities.  While we recognize that the current


 1     policy environment and the commitment of broadcasters
 2     have allowed a resilient ethnocultural broadcasting
 3     system to evolve, we believe that there is room for
 4     significant improvement and efforts must be made to
 5     ensure that the current system is not allowed to
 6     deteriorate.
 7  891                  Today, in the Greater Metropolitan
 8     Toronto Area, there are six radio stations, two closed
 9     circuit audio services, one ethnic television station
10     and three ethnic specialty channels which broadcast
11     ethnocultural programming.  Canadians of Italian
12     heritage have access to two television stations, CFMT
13     and Telelatino, which broadcast some programming in
14     their native language.
15  892                  In spite of the successes in the past
16     years, we have witnessed a deterioration of the system. 
17     The amount of hours of daily programming in the Italian
18     language have decreased on CFMT.  This has occurred
19     under the purported pretext of increasing daily
20     broadcasting in other ethnic languages.
21  893                  However, at the same time, we have
22     noticed that CFMT is aggressively promoting an
23     extensive English-language schedule.  English-language
24     programming no doubt results in a substantial profit
25     for CFMT.  However, it does not appear that these


 1     monies are being reinvested in the development and
 2     enhancement of Italian-language programming.
 3  894                  While the station's ability to make a
 4     profit must be preserved, there must also be some sort
 5     of refinement to the current policy of ethnic
 6     programming to ensure that local programming is in fact
 7     developed.  We cannot allow our multicultural stations
 8     to become the whole distributors of English-language
 9     programming, while the question of reinvestment is
10     ignored.
11  895                  In the spirit of its licence and in
12     the interest of ethnocultural communities, we must
13     develop more ethnic-language programming, not less, to
14     showcase and promote issues that are relevant to ethnic
15     communities that these stations are mandated to serve.
16  896                  Further refinement and reinforcement
17     of the current policy must occur in order to ensure
18     that the profits generated from these ethnic television
19     stations can be reinvested for the betterment of
20     programming needs and the development of more homegrown
21     programs.
22  897                  The second item that we were asked to
23     consider dealt with demographic shifts in Canada's
24     population.  A large portion of today's
25     Canadian-Italian community whose primary language is


 1     Italian are now retiring.  At this time, more than
 2     ever, we believe that an increased effort must be made
 3     by broadcasters to reach these Canadians of Italian
 4     heritage.
 5  898                  Another submission to these hearings
 6     advances that perhaps in the Greater Metropolitan
 7     Toronto area advertising dollars could be used to
 8     support the establishment of a cable community
 9     television channel to specifically serve Canadians of
10     Italian heritage.  This is a suggestion which must be
11     given serious consideration, given the reduction in
12     broadcast hours in Italian at CFMT and the significant
13     population that speaks Italian as a first language in
14     the Greater Metropolitan Toronto area.
15  899                  Over the past year a transformation
16     has occurred at Telelatino with respect to its range of
17     programming.  In part, it has changed its focus to
18     target younger Italian Canadians.  It is our view that
19     these programming changes have had a detrimental impact
20     in terms of the quality and, in fact, the quantity of
21     programming available to Telelatino viewers.  This has
22     been compounded by the reduction of Italian language
23     broadcast hours at CFMT, which has resulted in more and
24     more Canadians of Italian heritage looking to
25     Telelatino to be their primary source of


 1     Italian-language programming.
 2  900                  There is, however, a practical
 3     limitation in this change.  As we understand it,
 4     Telelatino's current licence restricts it from
 5     providing any news programs.  This licence condition
 6     for Telelatino works to the detriment of the community. 
 7     CFMT is left without any competition with respect to
 8     providing news service in the Italian language.  We
 9     fully believe in a free market economy and in
10     competition and that the removal of this restriction
11     will result in better broadcasting in the marketplace. 
12     Given the large numbers of Canadians of Italian
13     heritage in this area, we believe that this licence
14     condition for Telelatino should be removed if it is
15     requested.
16  901                  In order to address the needs and
17     interests of the Italian-Canadian community, we believe
18     that there should be a policy enacted to ensure that
19     there is a greater number of Italian language broadcast
20     hours on a daily basis and that such broadcast hours
21     should be developed locally.
22  902                  The third item for consideration was
23     whether there should be a priority on the development
24     of Canadian ethnic services rather than the importation
25     of foreign programming.  There have been some


 1     submissions that suggest in a free market economy the
 2     CRTC's policies should be liberalized in order to allow
 3     major Italian networks to broadcast into Canada. 
 4     Respectfully, we disagree with this assertion.
 5  903                  Further, we believe that the current
 6     Canadian content conditions for the multicultural
 7     television stations are also counterproductive.  It is
 8     our understanding that as a general requirement ethnic
 9     broadcasters' licences require less Canadian content
10     programming than conventional broadcasters.  We
11     understand that it is 40 per cent compared to 50 per
12     cent between 6 p.m. and midnight.
13  904                  We submit that this requirement has
14     had the adverse effect of less programming in the
15     Italian language during prime-time hours.  We believe
16     that where the market is able to sustain it, and we
17     believe that in the Greater Metropolitan Toronto area
18     such an initiative can be sustained, that CFMT and
19     other similar stations should be forced to meet the
20     Canadian content requirement required by mainstream
21     commercial broadcasters.
22  905                  We believe that this change alone can
23     result in further community and ethnic language based
24     programming which in turn would help achieve the goals,
25     aims and aspirations of the ethnic broadcasting policy.


 1  906                  On the question of transmission of
 2     foreign services, while valuable, the retransmission of
 3     foreign services from ethnic homelands does not serve
 4     the needs and goals of the ethnic broadcasting policy.
 5  907                  For example, while foreign services
 6     will no doubt deal with foreign policy, racial and
 7     other dealings and provide a connection to one's
 8     homeland, they will not serve the needs, interests,
 9     aspirations and circumstances that Canadians of Italian
10     heritage specifically face in Toronto.
11  908                  The only way to ensure this, of
12     course, is to force the broadcasters to promote and
13     develop Canadian product and enforce higher Canadian
14     content requirements.  Indirectly, this change can
15     ensure that profits are rerouted back into Canada and
16     Canadian broadcasting operations and the development
17     and promotion of local Canadian news, information and
18     talent.
19  909                  We believe that the Italian community
20     in Toronto has been forced to have a greater dependency
21     on foreign services because the local broadcasters have
22     failed to develop adequate local programs and there is
23     no policy impetus for them to pursue such endeavours.
24  910                  In summary and in a different vein,
25     we believe that as we become more and more involved in


 1     a global society there are needs and opportunities that
 2     will be missed by only an ethnic approach to
 3     broadcasting.  We are of the opinion that there is a
 4     distinction that has been made between ethnic and
 5     multicultural programming, a distinction which we
 6     support.  Notwithstanding our support for the ethnic
 7     broadcasting policy which has been outlined throughout
 8     the submission, there is a need for a multicultural
 9     service that ensures Canadians of all heritage have
10     access to the views, positions, situations, culture and
11     entertainment of the peoples of the world.  Canada must
12     take advantage of its multicultural heritage by
13     enabling all Canadians to have views of the world that
14     are broader and more direct than that provided by a few
15     international services available to them at this time.
16  911                  Ethnic and multicultural broadcasting
17     are not one and the same thing, although each can be
18     supportive of the other.  Multicultural broadcasting,
19     and in particular television, can be the catalyst that
20     opens up opportunities around the globe, provides
21     bridges of understanding between the diversity of the
22     peoples of the world and which can overcome narrowness
23     of understanding and perspective among Canadians and
24     their perspectives on the world.
25  912                  Language need no longer be a barrier


 1     as quality subtitling is now available which opens the
 2     cultures of the world to all.  Ethnic broadcasting is
 3     specific and exclusive, while multiculturalism is
 4     inclusive and both should be incorporated in the
 5     Canadian broadcasting system.
 6  913                  Thank you.
 7  914                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 8     much.
 9  915                  MS RHÉAUME:  The next presentation is
10     by Mr. David Palmer of the Cultural News Agency.
12  916                  MR. PALMER:  (Interpretation)  I
13     thank you very much.  I shall speak in Spanish and be
14     translated.
15  917                  The Spanish-speaking community of
16     Toronto welcomes these public consultations and wishes
17     to address the federal government represented at the
18     CRTC about the duties and rights that bind and impel us
19     to participate in the consideration of what is ours,
20     the Hertzian waves of this country, to which we
21     contribute with our efforts, taxes and suffering, as
22     well as with the best of our qualities, dreams and
23     capabilities.
24  918                  The very scarce multiethnic means of
25     communication have become a fortress of personal


 1     preferences and politics and have ruined the art of
 2     communications conceived as information, entertainment
 3     and culture.
 4  919                  Acknowledging the importance of all
 5     the spaces we already have, we have also to recognize
 6     the poorness of content due to the lack of democracy in
 7     the policies that define minority participation.
 8  920                  It gets to the extreme abberation of
 9     denying the right of minority programs to look for
10     sponsorships in the so-called national market, meaning
11     by this that large corporations and/or government
12     agencies who decide to grant a contract to the
13     multi-ethnic media in accordance to strategic
14     importance to the Canadian equation of housing
15     composition.
16  921                  At the other end of these interests,
17     there is an eager mass searching for their own
18     identity.  I do not want to be turned into a group of
19     loud followers of salsa, meringue or cauyunte
20     yadoes (ph) soap operas, even though of course there
21     should be room for all of this in this marvellous
22     concert of diversity that we have learned to love so
23     much of Canadian culture.
24  922                  Unfortunately, cultural themes are
25     launched with total disrespect for their existence to


 1     small corners, very difficult to find, thus diluting
 2     the possibility of generating a larger audience craving
 3     for the knowledge.
 4  923                  We are told we are a mouse market, by
 5     this meaning ridiculously small and are denied
 6     primetime broadcasting where we could possibly
 7     demonstrate the large potential of consumption of
 8     Hispanics and Portuguese and other similar ethnic
 9     groups -- groups that relate not only from a linguistic
10     point of view, but who share the enjoyment and taste
11     for other constructive and real of our own diversified
12     cultures made up of more than 20 nationalities, with
13     different mores, different climates, different
14     countries with enormous physical and cultural riches to
15     contribute.
16  924                  We are talking about the bonds of
17     similarity and commitment that bind together from
18     Mexico to the very southern part of our continent
19     several millions more of human beings who share similar
20     cultures, very closely akin and related to Europeans
21     and parts of Asia.
22  925                  Making the means of communication
23     more democratic, even if we keep its archaic structure
24     as far as possession through private concessions or
25     commercially organized people goes, there is still the


 1     outcry to benefit before anything else the minority
 2     events.  All the First Nations of Canada, of course,
 3     are included, or at least to guarantee their own spaces
 4     to identify and set their own courses in a united
 5     manner, contribution to potential licks (ph) of Canada
 6     to history and to the fate of a very important part of
 7     this planet from a preferential side or place, which is
 8     for us this political and economical stability of the
 9     land we inhabit.
10  926                  It is worth mentioning the amount of
11     abuse, discrimination and manipulation that is
12     characteristic of many pretence participation in all
13     means of communications.  It is worth mentioning that
14     except in very few cases, even at certain stations
15     where same and some time has been assigned to the
16     Spanish language, all Hispanic minorities are treated
17     as third class and are not granted any potential growth
18     in their relationships of respect and preference given
19     to a client.
20  927                  It is worth mentioning -- our
21     businesses, at the same time, suffer the impact of the
22     lack of specialized fixed and permanent means available
23     band and times during which our realities and roots
24     could be discussed, as well as where a lively debate
25     could occur on the commitment we all have to pull for


 1     our inclusion into this Canadian society.
 2  928                  The compulsory bureaucratic lobby and
 3     the paradoxical lack of resources have displaced our
 4     minority to be a guest without voice, or with voices
 5     that are silent or censured in a very discrete manner
 6     in the same of our rhythm that becomes heartbreakingly
 7     commercial and to such a degree that our roots are kept
 8     away from a relishing market that only buys when the
 9     quality of the information or certain parameters of
10     opinion are met.
11  929                  Today we have to demand the
12     opportunity to exercise a free press with a special
13     accent, with the resources of a free market of
14     communications and above all allowing the extensive and
15     active participation of all nationalities.
16  930                  A community without a strong presence
17     in the means of communications, without the right to
18     discriminate their past as well as their present and
19     future is an ethnic group without hope and
20     opportunities.  It is a community that has been
21     distanced and cut off of all possibilities with no
22     alternative or economic, political and cultural
23     development.
24  931                  From ancient times, all messages and
25     communication networks have played a crucial role in


 1     the life of all nations.  The marginalization of any
 2     ethnic group residing in Canada, whether overt or
 3     hidden, will go against the guiding principles of
 4     multiculturalism living together.
 5  932                  The promotion and support of cultural
 6     diversity with private enterprise assistance is one
 7     element that should not be ignored, if properly
 8     co-ordinated, as an answer to the needs of every
 9     community.
10  933                  It is only natural that the support
11     of government at all levels should be another assurance
12     to guarantee democratic links free from undue pressures
13     and giving us the pleasure and enjoyment of not feeling
14     under attack.
15  934                  After several months of work with
16     different sectors of our Latin community in Toronto, I
17     would like to address some of the questions people
18     often ask themselves regarding the role of
19     communications in their development of minorities.
20  935                  First, why is it that taxes to
21     licensing is not more democratic in order to give
22     access to communities who express their opinions, and
23     not only given to businessmen to whom these licences
24     are only a means to carry on a lucrative business and
25     who live far away and removed from the reality and


 1     suffering of those minorities which are the raison
 2     d'etre of the licences?
 3  936                  Two, is it the serves or a monopoly? 
 4     What is the true meaning of a licence?  Why are these
 5     means far away removed from the reach of average
 6     people?  Why does a community feel threatened instead
 7     of served?  Why do they have to shut up and not be free
 8     to express themselves freely in a free country?
 9  937                  Three, which are the procedures
10     followed by the CRTC to control and verify that
11     licences are really given for the service of minorities
12     and truly comply with all requirements demanded by the
13     Commission?
14  938                  Fourth, why do companies who enjoy
15     the benefit of the frequencies do not have executives
16     and stockholders of the same nationality of the
17     communities they are supposed to represent?
18  939                  Five, the Spanish-speaking community
19     in Canada is the ethnic group which is growing more
20     rapidly in this country.  Statistics show that with the
21     signing of NAFTA between Canada, Mexico and the U.S.
22     and which is supposed to cover the whole continent in
23     the next 10 years, the role that Spanish plays in this
24     continent will become more prominent and so will be the
25     compelling need to share geographic spaces and new


 1     challenges for the integration to this next millennium.
 2  940                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Gonzales, (sic)
 3     I am really sorry to interrupt you, but you have been
 4     going for 20 minutes now with the interpretation and I
 5     am just wondering if you could try and wrap up your
 6     comments.  You can always file anything else you have
 7     to say in writing.  It's just we have a big long list
 8     of people to go through.
 9  941                  MR PALMER:  (Interpretation)  Yes,
10     that's fine.  Thank you very much.
11  942                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much
12     for your contribution.
13  943                  MS RHÉAUME:  The next speaker is mr.
14     Aldo di Felice, President of TLN Television.
16  944                  MR. DI FELICE:  Good evening.  My
17     name is Aldo di Felice and I am President of Telelatino
18     Network Inc.
19  945                  As Canada's national Italian and
20     Hispanic specialty television network since 1984, the
21     TLN Television Network provides 24 hours per day, seven
22     days per week of news, information, sports, drama,
23     children's shows and general entertainment programming
24     to Italian and Spanish-speaking audiences.
25  946                  Telelatino is proud to have been a


 1     participant in the growth and development of Canadian
 2     ethnic programming and we are also pleased to
 3     participate in these public consultations.  We are
 4     proud to see sitting around this table this evening two
 5     independent producers who produce programs enjoyed by
 6     our Spanish-speaking audiences.  I am also very pleased
 7     to have sitting beside me Ms Claudia Caranci who
 8     yesterday celebrated not only the launch of her
 9     national Hispanic morning show, Buenas Dias Canada, but
10     also the eleventh anniversary of her joining TLN.  I
11     think Claudia would want me to add that she started
12     working at a very young age.
13  947                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Didn't we all.
14  948                  MR. DI FELICE:  Today, given the
15     amount of time available, I will focus my comments
16     primarily on the issue of the role of foreign services,
17     an issue which we consider to be critical to the
18     Commission's review of Canada's ethnic broadcasting
19     policy.
20  949                  It is our respectful submission that
21     the treatment of this issue by the Commission will
22     profoundly impact Canada's ethnic broadcasters,
23     particularly ethnic specialty channels like ours.
24  950                  Time permitting, I will also address
25     what we consider to be a related issue, that being the


 1     need to encourage and facilitate the production of
 2     Canadian content programs by and for ethnic
 3     broadcasters.
 4  951                  Regarding the role of foreign
 5     services, Telelatino's ability to successfully continue
 6     serving the needs and interests of its audiences
 7     depends on the Commission's future approach to
 8     non-Canadian ethnic services which may seek admission
 9     into Canada.
10  952                  The Commission's Public notice in
11     this matter refers to the technological changes that
12     have provided and will provide increased channel
13     capacity through digitization.  Expanded capacity makes
14     possible the entry of more foreign third language
15     services via DTH, digital cable or otherwise.
16  953                  But the CRTC has had a policy of not
17     authorizing the carriage in Canada or foreign services
18     that are competitive with a Canadian licensed pay or
19     specialty service.  This policy must be maintained.
20  954                  In Telelatino's case, the possible
21     entry into Canada of foreign Spanish or Italian
22     language services would have immediate and devastating
23     effects.  First, already small audiences would be
24     split.  Canadian ethnic services already serve
25     relatively small niche audiences and in some cases


 1     ethnic specialties already compete with over the air
 2     multicultural broadcasters and mainstream broadcasters
 3     doing ethnic programming too.
 4  955                  The niche ethnic audiences that are
 5     already served by multiple Canadian broadcasters on
 6     local, regional and national levels would be further
 7     split by the introduction of non-Canadian ethnic
 8     services.
 9  956                  If splitting niche audiences merely
10     meant that more public choice was available from a
11     wider selection of services, that would be fine.  But
12     in the case of Canadian ethnic specialty channels like
13     Telelatino, audience splitting caused by the entry of
14     competitive foreign services would threaten the very
15     viability of the Canadian service.
16  957                  This is especially true for a dual
17     ethnic broadcaster like us Telelatino increasingly
18     relies on the pooled advertising revenues of two
19     Canadian distinct ethnocultural groups in order to
20     support the operations of one, a single programming
21     service.
22  958                  Audience fragmentation caused by the
23     entry of foreign services would seriously harm us in
24     two ways.
25  959                  First, advertising rates must reduce


 1     with any actual or perceived dilution of our audiences.
 2  960                  Secondly, foreign services carry
 3     multinational advertising and as a result, cannibalize
 4     local Canadian advertising of products and services
 5     already advertised internationally on the foreign
 6     signal.
 7  961                  Thus, foreign services deprive
 8     Canadian ethnic services of both viewership and
 9     advertising revenues, thereby reducing the Canadian
10     service's ability to sustain themselves and contribute
11     to Canadian programming.
12  962                  And all without any obligation on the
13     foreign services to make the kinds of contributions to
14     Canadian broadcasting that Canadian ethnic services do.
15  963                  Non-Canadian services by their nature
16     do not address the particular wants and needs of a
17     Canadian ethnic audience and do not contribute to the
18     Canadian broadcasting system in the same ways.  Allow
19     me to briefly count these ways.
20  964                  First, foreign services do not
21     produce and broadcast Canadian programs.
22  965                  Second, foreign services do not
23     select programs and do not schedule them with a view to
24     Canadian audiences.
25  966                  Third, foreign services ignore local


 1     Canadian clubs, activities, institutions, leaders,
 2     personalities, news and events.
 3  967                  Fourth, foreign services do nothing
 4     to acclimatize and introduce recent Canadian immigrants
 5     to the norms, practices, services, opportunities, laws
 6     and social climate of Canada.
 7  968                  Fifth, foreign services lack the
 8     local Canadian advertising content of Canadian ethnic
 9     services.  Ethnic audiences rely on such commercials as
10     an information resource.  Canadian commercials aren't
11     just advertising tools; they often serve as a community
12     guide to the availability of goods and services.
13  969                  And sixth, foreign services have no
14     local community involvement and no commitments.  They
15     do not organize, sponsor or promote community festivals
16     or events.  They don't even broadcast public service
17     announcements of the local Canadian ethnic communities.
18  970                  These facts remain, whether or not
19     technological advances increase channel capacity. 
20     Increased channel capacity makes carriage of foreign
21     services physically possible, but it should not make it
22     automatic.  On the contrary, the free entry of
23     competing foreign services would erode and destroy the
24     foundations built by Canadian ethnic broadcasters like
25     Telelatino.


 1  971                  It is our respectful submission that
 2     in Canada, the admission of competing foreign ethnic
 3     services, although seemingly adding more choice, does
 4     not add overall value to the Canadian ethnic
 5     broadcasting system.  In fact, it will destabilize the
 6     viability of existing Canadian ethnic broadcasters,
 7     particularly specialty channels like ours.
 8  972                  It is our respectful submission that
 9     the prospect of increased channel capacity is an
10     opportunity that must be used to benefit the Canadian
11     broadcasting system, not to harm it.
12  973                  There is a way to do this.  We
13     respectfully submit that the Commission must
14     unequivocally reaffirm its policy against allowing
15     competing foreign services to enter and undermine
16     existing Canadian specialty services.
17  974                  once this policy is so reaffirmed,
18     existing and future Canadian services will be able to
19     realize the opportunities that new technologies have
20     presented and bring an even greater variety of ethnic
21     programming choices to Canadians in many different
22     ways, be it program acquisitions, partnerships, joint
23     ventures or future Canadian licensed services.  The
24     result will be that the opportunity presented by
25     increased channel capacity enures to the benefit of


 1     Canadian broadcasters and the Canadian broadcasting
 2     system.  Rather than benefiting foreign services at the
 3     expense of Canadian services.
 4  975                  To repeat, the Commission must not
 5     allow competing foreign ethnic services to undermine
 6     the very important role served by Canadian ethnic
 7     services in the Canadian broadcasting system.
 8  976                  With your indulgence, I would also
 9     like to comment on the related topic of Canadian
10     content programming by ethnic broadcasters.
11  977                  I have mentioned Canadian content
12     programs as one of the obvious benefits of Canadian
13     ethnic services over non-Canadian ethnic services. 
14     Offering unique Canadian perspectives and opportunities
15     for community involvement and interaction are obvious
16     advantages that Telelatino provides its viewers.
17  978                  Canadian content production must be
18     supported and nurtured in ethnic broadcasting in the
19     same way it is in mainstream Canadian broadcasting.
20  979                  But there are several disadvantages
21     and barriers faced by ethnic programming services in
22     accessing the numerous federal, provincial and private
23     television production funding programs.  There are
24     three main obstacles.
25  980                  First, the types of programs produced


 1     do not qualify for funding; second, non-English,
 2     non-French, non-aboriginal language programs also do
 3     not generally qualify and; third, broadcaster produced
 4     in-house programs generally do not qualify under most
 5     programs.
 6  981                  Dealing with the first of these
 7     barriers, the genres of programs typically produced by
 8     or for ethnic broadcasters, namely talk shows, public
 9     affairs shows, instructional programs, tributes,
10     interstitials, magazine shows and news, do not qualify
11     for funding under most production industry support
12     programs.
13  982                  Dramas and documentaries do qualify,
14     but Canadian ethnic broadcasters generally do not have
15     the financial capacity to undertake the development and
16     the production of these usually higher budget forms of
17     programming.  Doing so would mean concentrating
18     production dollars and producing fewer but hopefully
19     better hours of programming.
20  983                  The problem lies in the fact that
21     ethnic broadcasters generally produce rather than
22     purchase Cancon off the shelf because little or no
23     relevant Cancon exists to be bought.  As a result,
24     concentrating program dollars into documentaries and
25     drama would leave ethnic broadcasters without enough


 1     Canadian programs to fulfil their Cancon broadcast
 2     commitments.
 3  984                  Even where the genre of program
 4     qualifies however, third language shows are generally
 5     ineligible for funding.
 6  985                  As a result of these barriers, ethnic
 7     broadcasters are usually paying 100 cents on the
 8     dollar -- 100 cents on the production dollar required
 9     to produce a program, as opposed to the 10 to 20 cents
10     on the dollar, or even less sometimes, paid by other
11     Canadian broadcasters in many cases.
12  986                  Coupled with the reality that ethnic
13     broadcasters are, despite reduced Cancon broadcast
14     obligations, spreading relatively few production
15     dollars over many productions, the type and quality of
16     ethnic programming has typically reflected the lower
17     production budgets involved.
18  987                  Therefore, we respectfully make two
19     general recommendations in this area:
20  988                  First, existing TV funding programs
21     must be encouraged to open up ethnic broadcaster
22     productions by removing the previously mentioned
23     restrictions, and;
24  989                  Secondly, new ethnic program
25     production funding pools must be established.


 1  990                  One speaker this evening mentioned
 2     tax credits for corporate sponsorship of ethnic
 3     programming and that strikes me as the genesis of a
 4     good idea.
 5  991                  In closing, I would like to reiterate
 6     the theme of what I am saying today.  That there is a
 7     clear public interest in protecting what ethnic
 8     broadcasters like Telelatino have created to date.
 9  992                  TLN television broadcasts 24 hours
10     per day, seven days per week an incredible variety of
11     quality foreign and Canadian-produced programs.  And
12     for all of this TLN receives less than $1 from the
13     average TLN subscribing household.  That is $1 per
14     year.
15  993                  We at Telelatino continue to pursue
16     expanding and improving our longstanding commitment to
17     the Canadian communities of Italian and Hispanic
18     origin.  Telelatino is proudly Italian.  Telelatino is
19     proudly Hispanic.  We are also fiercely Canadian.
20  994                  Thank you.
21  995                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
22     much, Mr. di Felice.
23  996                  MS RHÉAUME:  Our next speaker is mr.
24     Mario Bianchi, Vice-President of Laura Productions.


 1  997                  MR. BIANCHI:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
 2  998                  My name is Mario Bianchi,
 3     Vice-President of Laura Productions, an independent
 4     producer responsible for the show "You Decide", a
 5     weekly program of Telelatino Network.  This come 28th
 6     of February, the show will complete five years of
 7     programming.
 8  999                  Thanks to the opportunity that
 9     Telelatino gives us, the Spanish-speaking community for
10     the first time in Canadian history can participate
11     freely and directly in a live show without censorship
12     in their own language.
13  1000                 The show that is produced within a
14     Canadian context deals on a weekly basis with the
15     topics and situations that affect this community and
16     its development.
17  1001                 The problems that are debated by the
18     members of the panel and the public are always topics
19     of importance that deal with the daily lives of this
20     immigrant population that faces difficulties in the
21     adjustment and settlement process in their new
22     homeland.  These pertinent discussions give people an
23     awareness of where to find help or how widespread their
24     own problem might be.
25  1002                 We have finally in this new season


 1     modified the show by representing the topic of debate
 2     in a theatrical form, with the aim to promote the
 3     theatre in the community and its actors at the same
 4     time.
 5  1003                 Telelatino has made a financial
 6     effort to produce this show with technical elements and
 7     backgrounds in accordance with the large audience that
 8     watch the show.
 9  1004                 Therefore, I would favour that our
10     "dear" channel could be extended without hindrances to
11     all the corners of Canada, without any slight or
12     smaller communities.
13  1005                 Thank you so much.
14  1006                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
15     much, Mr. Bianchi.  Thank you for being the most
16     succinct presenter we have had so far.
17  1007                 MR. BIANCHI:  yes.
18  1008                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  That's not to
19     suggest that we don't like the longer presentations,
20     but that was well done.
21  1009                 No questions.
22  1010                 Thank you.
23  1011                 MS RHÉAUME:  Our next speaker is ms
24     Magda de la Torre from CHIN-FM.


 1  1012                 MS DE LA TORRE:  I could try to cram
 2     in 10 minutes five pages of arguments, statistics and
 3     on-hand experience.
 4  1013                 I could try to learn in a few days
 5     and repeat today the technical and business aspects
 6     that my peers live and breath on a daily basis.
 7  1014                 Born in Cuba, I could also try to
 8     convince the CRTC that Cuban Spanish is the best
 9     language and that the Cubans need a 24 hour radio and
10     TV station.
11  1015                 I will not do any of the three.  My
12     message will be direct and hopefully short and sweet.
13  1016                 My name is Magda de la Torre and I am
14     a double immigrant.  I was born in Cuba and on my first
15     generation I experienced what it meant to live in a
16     complete totalitarian state.
17  1017                 As a political refugee I landed in
18     the United States where I had to assimilate int he
19     melting pot existing there.  I learned the science of
20     living in a place where the extremes are flaunted on a
21     constant basis.
22  1018                 A generation later my work brought me
23     to Canada to experience a more tolerant society; a 
24     country where life seemed slower and where compromise
25     was an integral part of society.  This, ladies and


 1     gentlemen, is my Canada.
 2  1019                 As a resident of Canada I am able to
 3     speak my mind in front of decision making government
 4     executives and try to, in a few minutes, convince them
 5     of the reality of my speech.
 6  1020                 Believe me when I say that as a first
 7     generation ethnic it is my choice to reside in Canada.
 8  1021                 Multicultural, multiracial,
 9     multilingual, heritage and culture are words that are
10     respected in a country like Canada.
11  1022                 We ethnics are lucky to have a
12     regulated CRTC.
13  1023                 As a professional my experiences are
14     a specialist and promoter in the Latin market.  In
15     tourism, I represented the governments of Dominical
16     Republic, Virgin Islands, Costa Rica, Panama, American
17     Express and more.
18  1024                 In media, for six years I was the
19     comptroller of a print media rep.  For five years I
20     produced the No. 1 Spanish TV show in New york's
21     Telemundo.  For the last three years we have arranged
22     the latin component of Canadian Music Week, bridging
23     and fostering the best of Canadian Latin talent.  For
24     the last four years we have produced Spanish radio
25     shows, including the Mel Lastman Square event of Super


 1     Latin Fest, with over 60,000 people in 1998.
 2  1025                 I am the producer of "Toronto
 3     Latino", CHIN's answer to the first and second
 4     generation Spanish community.  And, the co-producer of
 5     Global Groove Network, an overnight program, also in
 6     CHIN.
 7  1026                 My experience lets me zero in two
 8     necessary issues.  First issue, second and third
 9     generation ethnics.
10  1027                 Toronto with its 60 per cent plus of
11     ethnic penetration demands a diverse TV and radio
12     calendar.  Today we have increasing new audiences of
13     second and third generation ethnics that have grown up
14     in our great multicultural fibre.  While targeting
15     programs for Canada's multicultural reality; Canada
16     needs programs that encompasses the bridging from first
17     to second and third generations.
18  1028                 Mainstream media, with very few
19     exceptions, does not pay attention to this increasing
20     growing audience.  As an example, the music world. 
21     Music has to diversify at a greater, faster mode to
22     serve the appetite of these audiences.  Dance music
23     alone comes as pop, dance, hip hop, house, drum and
24     bass, Euro, jungle, garage, techno, disco, Latino, T
25     &B, rap, et cetera, et cetera.


 1  1029                 Initially, market demands was one of
 2     the reasons why most ethnic radio stations have chosen
 3     to devote their schedules almost exclusively to first
 4     generation programming, going over the general CRTC
 5     requirement of a minimum of 60 per cent ethnic
 6     programs.
 7  1030                 Radio stations could follow the
 8     successful format of CFMT, targeting programs to the
 9     second and third generations when audiences are more
10     likely to hear and within their 40 per cent licence
11     requirement.
12  1031                 As a solution and an opportunity, our
13     company, the Media Group, has started over 60 hours of
14     overnight programs in CHIN-AM and FM, called GGN 1 and
15     2, The Bomb, filling the void in the marketplace for
16     second and third generation ethnics.
17  1032                 Second, the lack of TV programming
18     for ethnics.  The same market demands have not caused
19     the same effects with television stations.  In
20     television the revenues are generated mostly by the
21     financial performance of approximately 40 per cent of
22     the broadcast week -- or "mainstream" programming.
23  1033                 If financially viable, TV stations
24     wish to air more quality Cancon programs.
25  1034                 The need for more cultural ethnic


 1     based programming can be fulfilled by way of new
 2     subsidies and/or funding, grants, co-op, et cetera. 
 3     This will foster the production of Canadian content for
 4     mainstream and ethnic broadcasters alike, thus allowing
 5     broadcasters and producers to air and/or produce a
 6     wider diversity of themes and characters representing
 7     today's multicultural reality in the marketplace.
 8  1035                 When producing those programs our
 9     goal has to be high production values and standard
10     formats to master the globalization and exporting of
11     the programs, thus achieving the financial success and
12     continuity of the productions.  This needs to be
13     encouraged by policy and financial enforcement.
14  1036                 On those bases, and like I promised
15     in a meeting held to talk about this CRTC public
16     consultation in Telefilm, I requested and got copies of
17     a cultural related production made by PBS, Public
18     Broadcasting System, in Miami 20 years ago and still
19     airs successfully in mainstream TV -- bridging the gap
20     between both communities, mainstream and ethnics, and
21     covering and making laugh three generations.  We will
22     approach Telefilm via its newly and ethnic appointed
23     member.  Elvira Sanchez.
24  1037                 People, let's look for solutions. 
25     Solutions is the answer.  Let us do it together with a


 1     regulated CRTC.  In this case, we cannot afford to
 2     imitate the United States.
 3  1038                 When I see appointments like Elvira
 4     Sanchez in Telefilm and Andrew Cardozo in the CRTC, I
 5     have hope.
 6  1039                 Hear our spoken words and read our
 7     written words.  We already told you that to ethnics
 8     this is not a dead issue.  instead of one day, these
 9     hearings have needed three days.
10  1040                 Spanish people are blessed.  With our
11     music we have crossed borders with media broadcasters. 
12     With my roots being Spanish, together with a copy of my
13     speech, I am leaving for the CRTC Spanish music CDs. 
14     Enjoy, dance and feel like an ethnic.
15  1041                 I like to thank my peers for their
16     constant support, CHIN RADIO for airing our programs,
17     the CRTC for letting us speak our mind and, to
18     finalize, I like to thank the unique vision of Canada,
19     a country that dares to be different.
20  1042                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
21     much, Ms de la Torre.  That was a very inspired and
22     impassioned presentation and I appreciate it.
23  1043                 MS DE LA TORRE:  It was passionate.
24  1044                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
25  1045                 MS RHÉAUME:  Our next speaker is Mr.


 1     Lenny Lombardi, Executive Vice-President of CHIN
 2     RADIO/TV International.
 4  1046                 MR. LOMBARDI:  Good evening,
 5     Commissioners, ladies and gentlemen.  My name is Lenny
 6     Lombardi and I am Vice-President of CHIN RADIO/TV
 7     International.
 8  1047                 CHIN intends to file two written
 9     submissions regarding the policy review.  The first as
10     a licensed broadcaster of CHIN-AM 1540 and CHIN-FM
11     100.7 and the producer of 10 hours of multicultural
12     television programming and the second as a joint
13     submission as a participating member of the Canadian
14     Association of Ethnic Broadcasters.
15  1048                 It is not my intention here to
16     reiterate the points to be contained in our written
17     submission, but instead I would like the opportunity to
18     reflect on the reality of CHIN and our hopes for the
19     future of ethnic broadcasting in Canada.
20  1049                 CHIN RADIO broadcasts to over 30
21     distinct linguistic and cultural groups combined over
22     both our AM and FM frequencies.  Licensed in 1966 CHIN
23     was one of the first Canadian radio stations authorized
24     to provide ethnic programming in Canada.  But CHIN's
25     inception as a multilingual broadcast entity is


 1     predated by about 15 years when a young man, having
 2     recently returned from overseas as a Sergeant in the
 3     Canadian army believed that there was a need in Toronto
 4     for radio programming in languages other than English
 5     or French.  He recognized the large influx of post-war
 6     immigrants and in particular the italian immigrants,
 7     who had no means of entertainment and information in
 8     their own language.
 9  1050                 He then approached the new owner of
10     1050 CHUM, Allan Waters, and convinced him to sell some
11     of his air time for Italian programming.  An idea
12     almost inconceivable, given that in those days it was
13     still illegal for languages other than the official to
14     be spoken on the public airwaves.  But the two were
15     undaunted, the program went to air, the host speaking
16     English but playing italian songs.  So was born the
17     humble beginnings of ethnic broadcasting, in a time
18     when it was a little more than "politically incorrect"
19     to broadcast in a foreign tongue, men with vision
20     persevered and seized the opportunity.
21  1051                 The year was 1950 and the man was
22     Johnny Lombardi, founder and President of CHIN RADIO. 
23     Some 15 years later, after having purchased air time
24     from almost every available station in the Toronto
25     market and, in some cases, forced to move his brand of


 1     programming from station to station like a nomad,
 2     Johnny Lombardi would finally find a permanent home and
 3     begin to build the station format we have today at
 4     CHIN.
 5  1052                 CHIN RADIO became a haven for
 6     independent producers and amateur broadcasters alike,
 7     inviting all and giving opportunity to hone skills and
 8     establish programming for their respective communities. 
 9     In those early days of broadcasting the objectives were
10     clear, get and maintain financial stability through
11     advertising, and serve the entertainment, information
12     and educational needs of our listeners.  This has
13     always been and continues to be the primary role of
14     ethnic broadcasters.
15  1053                 Today CHIN RADIO works hard to secure
16     producers and succeed in a competitive environment. 
17     CHIN RADIO is in effect 30 stations and must be
18     sensitive to the needs of all our listeners.  Each
19     program has a producer, program director, a sales rep,
20     a copy writer, a traffic co-ordinator and
21     administrator.  Over 90 per cent of the revenue is
22     generated from the retail market, with very little
23     support coming from national advertisers.  Ethnic
24     broadcasting is distinct, intensive and demanding.
25  1054                 Ethnic programming on CHIN is


 1     strongly community based.  Each program strives to
 2     reflect the activities and aspirations of the community
 3     it serves.  The best example of radio support for
 4     community can be seen in our CHIN International Picnic. 
 5     Celebrating our 34th year, the picnic is a
 6     multicultural festival of music and cultural expression
 7     produced exclusively by CHIN and is the showcasing and
 8     expression of the many multicultural communities that
 9     thrive in our city and is supported by our station's
10     programming.
11  1055                 Held each year on the Canada Day
12     weekend, the world's largest free international picnic
13     attracts over 250,000 people, features over 1,000
14     multicultural entertainers performing on three stages
15     running concurrently throughout the weekend.  Born from
16     the idea of a simple celebration 34 years ago, the
17     picnic has blossomed into a world class event that
18     proudly demonstrates and celebrates the rich cultural
19     diversity of Toronto and of Canada.
20  1056                 CHIN RADIO is TV as well.  CHIN has
21     been producing multicultural programs for Toronto TV
22     since 1970.  Starting out at CKVR in Barrie, and then
23     on to Global, CHIN found its home on CityTV.  We have
24     been proudly broadcasting 10 hours of international
25     programs to 12 distinct linguistic and cultural groups


 1     on CityTV since the early eighties.  CityTV is to be
 2     commended for their unfailing dedication to the
 3     preservation of cultural identity.  Since their
 4     inception, City Television has always included ethnic
 5     programming as part of their schedule, recognizing even
 6     then the unique cultural makeup of Toronto.  We are
 7     proud of our longstanding association with CityTV and
 8     continue to look forward to providing quality ethnic
 9     programming through them, each and every week.
10  1057                 Fourteen years have passed since the
11     implementation of the ethnic policy in 1985.  In this
12     rapidly changing environment we as broadcasters have
13     new and exciting challenges on the horizon.
14  1058                 The evolution and integration of some
15     ethnic communities is well under way.  The second and
16     third generation members of those communities are
17     letting their voices be heard and the message we hear
18     is that language based Type A programs do not serve the
19     entire community as well as it once did.  Within some
20     communities Type C and D programming might be more
21     attractive, but caution must be exercised.  no
22     broadcaster wants to rush to serve one at the expense
23     of another.  Preserving audience while expanding
24     listenership will be a formidable challenge.
25  1059                 Ethnic broadcasters in radio all try


 1     to comply with the amount of Canadian content required,
 2     but can only do so by creating the product themselves. 
 3     CHIN annually produces music festivals and records
 4     segments of the CHIN picnic and other cultural events
 5     for both radio and television as a means of showcasing
 6     ethno-Canadian culture.  This is costly and labour
 7     intensive.  Ways in which to harness the tremendous
 8     talent within the cultural communities and additional
 9     means in which to stimulate the record industry to
10     respond to this wealth of talent needs to be explored. 
11     Ethnic radio alone cannot adequately support the
12     Canadian content requirements across the board in every
13     language group.  Any increase without additional
14     measures in place would be a burden.
15  1060                 In conclusion, the multicultural
16     nature of Canada is on the increase due to immigration. 
17     According to StatsCan 1996, the rate of immigrants
18     reporting a mother tongue other than English and French
19     grew two and a half times faster than the overall
20     growth rate of the Canadian population.  In Toronto,
21     the most ethnically diverse city in Canada, according
22     to StatsCan, states that 33 per cent of the total
23     population speaks a language other than English or
24     French in the home.  Canada and Toronto has never been
25     more multicultural and multilingual than today.


 1  1061                 The main objective of the ethnic
 2     broadcaster is to provide entertainment, information
 3     and educational needs of our multilingual listeners. 
 4     Reflecting the cultural diversity of Canada to all
 5     Canadians is a shared responsibility of each and every
 6     broadcaster.  We support the initiatives that encourage
 7     all broadcasters to reflect that reality to all
 8     Canadians.  We discovered years ago the joy of
 9     celebrating our cultural differences as proud
10     Canadians.  We want to continue to spread that
11     important message.
12  1062                 Thank you for this opportunity to
13     present our views and we look forward to participating
14     further through the written submission phase of this
15     review.  Thank you.
16  1063                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
17     much, Mr. Lombardi.
18  1064                 Madam Secretary.
19  1065                 MS RHÉAUME:  We will now hear a
20     presentation by Mr. Sher Singh.
22  1066                 MR. SINGH:  Thank you.
23  1067                 Madam Commissioner, Mr. Commissioner,
24     I should state at the outset I am not a producer or an
25     owner or in any way associated with any TV or radio


 1     channel.  I am here to speak as a consumer, as one who
 2     stands where the rubber hits the road.  I do not
 3     represent any organization or any group.  I am here to
 4     speak only on my behalf.
 5  1068                 Four points I would like to make and
 6     if I may summarize them at the outset.  First of all, I
 7     believe that the test of what should be done or should
 8     not be done, the touchstone against which everything
 9     should be rubbed is does it help new Canadians and
10     their children?  Does it help children of different
11     backgrounds in becoming full-fledged Canadians, fully
12     productive Canadians part of mainstream Canada?
13  1069                 If that test is met, then what we are
14     doing, what we are deciding not to do, I would suggest,
15     would point us in the right direction.
16  1070                 The second point I would like to make
17     is the more well-grounded a person, a citizen is in his
18     or her past, the more easily he or she is able to move
19     into the future.  It is important to understand that
20     what ethnic programming, third-language programming is
21     doing is helping new Canadians and their children,
22     those people who are in the process of becoming
23     full-fledged participants in Canada to get well
24     grounded, so that they can move forward into new
25     territory.  They can only do so and benefit from it and


 1     achieve the optimum result if they are fully confident
 2     of themselves, of their past, of their heritage, of
 3     their traditions, of their language, of their
 4     ethnicity, et cetera.
 5  1071                 The third point I would like to make
 6     is that we have to be careful that we don't create
 7     ghettos.  The system works the same way as we would in
 8     housing.  Would it benefit this society or any group or
 9     Canada as a whole if in housing we create ghettos where
10     certain communities are segregated because it is more
11     convenient, for that particular group or other groups,
12     that it be done so?  I would suggest that our
13     experience has taught us that that is not so.  My
14     suggestion would be that we do not isolate ethnic
15     programming or programming directed to the immediate
16     benefit of new Canadians or immigrants away from
17     mainstream, to the point that it creates a new ghetto
18     and does not permit any interaction between mainstream
19     Canada and new Canadians who are preoccupied in
20     becoming part of the larger community.
21  1072                 Finally, I would like to suggest that
22     what we have been doing in the last decade or so is
23     working.  All we need to do is fine-tune it, strengthen
24     it, see how we can take it further, how we can develop
25     it, how we can build on it, rather than change the


 1     direction completely or dismantle what we are doing or
 2     derail it completely for some reason or other.
 3  1073                 I should add that I came to this
 4     country as a 20-year old about 30 years ago and the
 5     first 15 years or so were extremely distressing in
 6     terms of ethnic programming, third-language
 7     programming.  It was trash, particularly in the
 8     languages that I speak, but I am aware of the quality
 9     that generally was available to other communities, to
10     other language groups and I am sure there were
11     exceptions, but generally there was a problem.
12  1074                 I think the problem related to a
13     number of factors; one, that the numbers in many of the
14     communities did not justify more expense, more
15     investment in such shows.  Two, many of the communities
16     had not been here long enough and had not attained
17     maturity, et cetera, and, third, possibly as a result
18     of the second point, there was dependency on old
19     country programming, stuff that was not only imported,
20     but ensured that new Canadians remained tied to their
21     past and could not move forward in any particular
22     manner.  That has changed drastically in the last 10
23     years and I have noticed that the programming has taken
24     a giant leap forward.  The quality has improved to the
25     point that it often, more often than not, matches


 1     mainstream programming in quality and the impact it has
 2     on the communities.
 3  1075                 I would suggest that we work along
 4     those lines and see what is working, what is having the
 5     maximum impact on the communities and strengthen that.
 6  1076                 I want to give one example of an
 7     exercise I was involved in in the last two years.  The
 8     Sikh community in 1997 celebrated 100 years in Canada. 
 9     It was the centennial of the first Sikh settlement in
10     1897.
11  1077                 We struggled with what should we do
12     with it.  Should we do some shows on our ethnic and
13     Punjabi-language programs, et cetera, et cetera.  We
14     came to the conclusion that the best way of going about
15     commemorating that was to do it by including all
16     generations within the community, whether they were
17     new, second, third, fourth generation or those who have
18     just stepped off the boat or the plane, as well as the
19     community at large.
20  1078                 I should say that one type of program
21     that was produced by CFMT was, oddly enough, entirely
22     in the English language.  It was done from beginning to
23     the end in English, directed to the community and ended
24     up being not only a very useful tool within the
25     community, but outside the Sikh community as well and


 1     was received with incredible support.  Not one negative
 2     response was received indicating why wasn't it in the
 3     third language, et cetera, et cetera.
 4  1079                 That exercise was so successful, it
 5     was an unprecedented attempt on the part of CFMT to try
 6     something of that sort.  It was so successful that it
 7     was repeated the following year and I understand it
 8     will be repeated further.
 9  1080                 My suggestion would be that there be
10     something inculcated to encourage communities to move
11     in that direction.  I understand now that if
12     programming is done in English, if it is done in ways
13     that move away from third-language use, then it doesn't
14     fall within certain categories and I know you have
15     certain quotas and requirements.  I understand there is
16     a category where if it is done in English it doesn't
17     fall within the ethnic quota required, et cetera, et
18     cetera.
19  1081                 My suggestion would be that there be
20     encouragement of two kinds; one, ethnic shows,
21     third-language shows be encouraged on their own -- on
22     their own free will voluntarily as the needs of the
23     community changes.  For example, the needs of the older
24     communities, whether they are Ukrainian, Italian,
25     German, et cetera, are different from the new


 1     communities that have arrived in this country in the
 2     last 10 years.  Leave it to them to determine what are
 3     the needs of their communities.
 4  1082                 For example, I look at my own family,
 5     three generations of them living here.  My parents came
 6     with some English, learned some more English,
 7     nevertheless they speak English with a heavy accent.  I
 8     speak with minimal accent and I am able to get by with
 9     facility in the language.  My daughter was born here
10     and does not speak with any accent and can fit into any
11     group without any suggestion that she has an accent or
12     does not fit in, et cetera, et cetera.  This has
13     happened through evolution.  It has happened through
14     evolution and, therefore, whatever forces that
15     permitted that sort of a thing to happen should be
16     encouraged.  We need to understand that ethnic
17     programming, third-language programming in fact
18     encourages new Canadians to become fully productive
19     Canadians, 100 per cent Canadians.
20  1083                 If we assist that, if we take
21     ownership of it, if the CRTC regulates it and keeps
22     ownership of it, it will carry on doing what is
23     absolutely essential for the growth of this country.
24  1084                 The second point I would like to make
25     in that regard is that we need to encourage mainstream


 1     channels, stations and programming, to have the type of
 2     programming that I mentioned.  The show that I was
 3     referring to was "Sutstri Ecol" (ph), produced by CFMT
 4     in the English language to commemorate an ethnic event
 5     which essentially should be of interest and is of
 6     interest to 100 per cent of Canadians.  It was a
 7     celebration of an event which needs to be understood
 8     and commemorated and celebrated by everybody and was.
 9  1085                 If we do not encourage mainstream
10     channels and stations to participate in that, that sort
11     of activity where they move into areas where the needs
12     of all segments of the community are met, if we do not
13     do so, then we are not only creating ghettos within the
14     industry, but as well we are permitting mainstream
15     channels and shows and stations to increasingly cater
16     to an ever decreasing population, ever decreasing
17     market and it does not serve the purpose of the
18     community at large that that should happen.
19  1086                 Those are all the points I need to
20     make.
21  1087                 Thank you.
22  1088                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
23     much, Mr. Singh, and thank you for taking the time to
24     be with us.
25  1089                 MR. SINGH:  My pleasure.


 1  1090                 MS RHÉAUME:  The next presenter is
 2     Mr. Ben Viccari, President of the Canadian Ethnic
 3     Journalists' and Writers' Club.
 5  1091                 MR. VICCARI:  Madam Commissioner, Mr.
 6     Commissioner, ladies and gentlemen, my name is Ben
 7     Viccari and I would like to thank you for the
 8     opportunity of addressing you on behalf of the Canadian
 9     Ethnic journalists' and Writers' Club, of which I am
10     the current President.
11  1092                 I am also managing editor of Canadian
12     Scene, a non-profit multilingual news and information
13     service for Canada's ethnic media and a television
14     commentator on CFMT television.  You will be hearing
15     from the President of Canadian Scene, Mr. John Oostrom,
16     at tomorrow's consultations.
17  1093                 The Canadian Ethnic Journalists' and
18     Writers' Club is an inclusive organization of print and
19     broadcast media people:  from freelance writers to
20     reporters, to editors, to publishers, founded on
21     democratic principles 21 years ago by the late Sierhey
22     Khmara Ziniak, editor/publisher of the Byelorussian
23     Voice.  Existing ethnic media associations up to that
24     time had been exclusively for print media and
25     membership was confined to publishers.


 1  1094                 Incidentally, I was very pleased to
 2     see that 11 of our members have shown up here tonight.
 3  1095                 The Club has never sought financial
 4     support from any government with the exception of a
 5     one-time, partial funding by the federal and ontario
 6     governments of an anthology of members' writings 13
 7     years ago.
 8  1096                 We hold monthly speakers' meetings
 9     and two celebratory dinners a year, one: to
10     commemorate, collectively, joyous festivals such as
11     Christmas, Hanukkah, Diwali, Ramadhan and the Chinese
12     New Year, and one to present nine journalism awards. 
13     Our speakers in recent times have included the Hon.
14     Hedy Fry, Secretary of State for Multiculturalism and
15     the Status of Women, the Hon. Mike Harris, Premier of
16     Ontario, Mr. Dalton McGuinty, leader of the Ontario
17     Liberal Party, His Excellency Rajanikanta Verma, the
18     High Commissioner of India, and CRTC Commissioner Mr.
19     Andrew Cardozo, who urged members of ethnocultural
20     communities to communicate with the Commission when
21     issues affecting them arise.  That his message was well
22     received has, I think, been well demonstrated by the
23     fact that these Toronto consultations have been
24     extended from a single day to three.
25  1097                 We, the Club, vigorously support the


 1     rights of ethnic journalists to free expression in the
 2     language of their choice with a special emphasis on
 3     interpreting Canada to new Canadians and not-so-new
 4     Canadians to whom the mother tongue is still the
 5     language of comfort, however fluent they may be in
 6     English.
 7  1098                 We are currently engaged in
 8     developing a strategy to communicate the fact that we
 9     are professionals and as such and because of our
10     ability to further the cause of good citizenship we
11     deserve greater recognition by mainstream institutions
12     in the form of invitations to their news conferences
13     and other events.
14  1099                 I use the term "mainstream" to
15     indicate what is today a rather blurry dividing line
16     between the "us" or the majority of citizens and "then"
17     members of a large number of ethnic minorities in
18     Toronto in particular where, collectively, minorities
19     will soon become the majority.
20  1100                 I would like first to present what I
21     believe to be our members' views on third-language
22     communications.  We know that, according to the 1996
23     census, there were in this country some 4.9 million
24     people whose mother tongue was neither English nor
25     French and that 2.8 million of these still used the


 1     mother tongue at home.  This is particularly true of
 2     large urban areas, particularly Toronto with 25 per
 3     cent using the mother tongue at home and Vancouver with
 4     22 per cent.
 5  1101                 Now, judging by the increasing number
 6     of people who, annually, seek Canadian citizenship one
 7     can safely assume that while to so many the language of
 8     comfort is a third language, they are eager to know
 9     more and more about Canadian customs, history, law
10     politics and the rights and responsibilities of
11     citizenship.
12  1102                 The three-way information partnership
13     of print, radio and television is therefore vital as a
14     means of satisfying these needs, and it is the opinion
15     of members of this Club that in this sense, while the
16     present broadcasting system is partially serving
17     ethnocultural communities, even more ethnic programming
18     of Canadian content would be welcome and that the
19     Commission should do all it can to encourage the growth
20     of such programming.  We see it as an important
21     corollary of good citizenship and, therefore, of nation
22     building.
23  1103                 This, we believe, should not
24     necessarily imply that the importation of some foreign
25     programs on existing TV facilities be proscribed any


 1     more than the right of public broadcasters such as
 2     TV-Ontario to import British programming should be
 3     removed.
 4  1104                 The national policy of
 5     multiculturalism proclaimed in 1971 became codified
 6     with an Act of Parliament in 1988, and we are therefore
 7     looking at almost 30 years in which Canadians of all
 8     origins have been encouraged to cherish their heritages
 9     as well as to become model Canadian citizens.  In
10     Canada, the two go hand in hand and the eyes of the
11     world are on Canadian multiculturalism with envy for
12     the way in which we people of so many different origins
13     are living together side by side.
14  1105                 We cannot deny that discrimination
15     and racism still exist here, but nevertheless while we
16     can always recognize the fact that there is room for
17     improvement, we can at least pride ourselves on the
18     distance we have come in Canada.  And I think we owe a
19     lot to ethnic programming for that.
20  1106                 In conclusion, we would like to touch
21     on what the Commission terms Type E programming.  We
22     firmly believe that programs of an ethnocultural nature
23     in French or English directed to any ethnic group or
24     groups or to a mainstream audience that further an
25     understanding of multiculturalism are of a highly


 1     desirable nature and should be considered ethnic
 2     programming when they are broadcast by ethnic stations. 
 3     It is also a very good idea to try to promote, as some
 4     people have suggested here tonight, multicultural
 5     programming on mainstream stations.
 6  1107                 In conclusion, Commissioners,
 7     speaking for members of the Canadian Ethnic
 8     Journalists' and Writers' Club, I trust that the
 9     Commission will discern the vast potential toward
10     nation building offered by ethnic broadcasting and
11     encourage its continuance and growth.  May I
12     congratulate you on these consultations which we are
13     convinced will lead to even greater harmony and
14     understanding between all Canadians.
15  1108                 Thank you.
16  1109                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
17     much, Mr. Viccari.
18  1110                 MS RHÉAUME:  The next presenter is Ms
19     Cecilia Mar, producer of Chinese programs on CHIN
20     RADIO/TV International.
22  1111                 MS MAR:  Good evening, Commissioners,
23     ladies and gentlemen.  My name is Cecilia Mar and I am
24     the producer of CHIN RADIO/TV International Chinese
25     programs.


 1  1112                 Upon my graduation from the
 2     University of Southern California in Los Angeles in
 3     1988, my family and I have come to Toronto -- have
 4     moved to Toronto that same year.  including my
 5     schooling in the United States, have been residing in
 6     North America of close to 19 years.  My broadcasting
 7     career started in 1990 when I joined CHIN Radio Chinese
 8     Program as a part-time announcer.  At that time there
 9     were only a total of 10 hours of Chinese programming at
10     CHIN per week, but over the years with the tremendous
11     increase of the Chinese population in Toronto, the CHIN
12     Chinese programming has now been increased to a seven
13     days' broadcast of a total of 46 hours of Chinese radio
14     programming per week.
15  1113                 Before I continue my presentation
16     tonight, I would like to, first of all, first of all,
17     read to all of you three letters that were written to
18     the CHIN Chinese Program by fellow listeners.  All
19     three letters were written in Chinese and I have
20     translated them in English and summarized them as
21     follows.  Letter number one is written by Mr. Ng who is
22     an immigrant from China and has come to Toronto about a
23     year ago.
24  1114                 Due to his lack of communication
25     skills in English it was hard for him to adapt to the


 1     Canadian lifestyle at the beginning.  By listening to
 2     our radio programming he is able to get access to the
 3     daily essential information, such as the community
 4     news, daily news from back home and other types of
 5     informative programs.
 6  1115                 He is currently renting an apartment
 7     in Toronto and recently he has been having problems
 8     with his landlord, which by listening to our law
 9     program on every Thursday night he was able to make his
10     inquiry over the phone through our speaker host, one of
11     the Chinese litigation lawyers.  His problems were
12     solved and besides writing to compliment our radio
13     programming, he also wanted to express his thanks to
14     our station for allowing him the opportunity to have
15     his inquiries answered.
16  1116                 He also wants to show us his
17     appreciation on how the Chinese programming helped him
18     in his daily life.
19  1117                 Letter number two is written by Mr.
20     Jonathan Chen who is a student from Hong Kong.  He has
21     been in Canada for a year now.  He has decided to
22     further his education in Toronto and at first, like
23     letter number one from Mr. Ng, life was just as
24     difficult for him due to the lack of acquaintances, as
25     well as that he is not familiar with the area.


 1  1118                 On one occasion he was introduced to
 2     the Chinese radio programming which he began to like
 3     very much, to a point where he is now a regular
 4     listener of our radio programming.
 5  1119                 Besides again, he wants to show his
 6     appreciation to the CHIN Chinese program for the
 7     quality programming that we have provided and the
 8     essential information which as a newcomer he
 9     appreciates a great deal.
10  1120                 There are also other inquiries that
11     he wishes to make and wishes to obtain answers from us
12     about his schooling.  There are questions.  To
13     summarize, these questions about -- they are mainly
14     pertaining to questions in terms of the application for
15     university admission.
16  1121                 Letter number three was written by
17     Mr. Ho and his family who have come to Canada for 17
18     years now and who is also a long time loyal listener to
19     the CHIN Chinese radio program.
20  1122                 By radio programming it is possible
21     for him to receive the latest news and happenings from
22     back home.  English being the second language,
23     therefore, the Chinese radio broadcast plays a very
24     important part in their daily lives.  His children are
25     born and raised in Toronto, but through the Chinese


 1     radio broadcasts they can retain their knowledge in
 2     their own culture and continue to practise to speak
 3     their mother tongue, Chinese.
 4  1123                 Furthermore, the station organizes a
 5     number of cultural events throughout the year, such as
 6     the CHIN International Picnic at the CNE and Canada's
 7     Wonderland Chinese Festival.  These type of events are
 8     not only entertaining, but it is also a fabulous
 9     gathering to promote the cultural diversity.
10  1124                 I will include the letters that I
11     have mentioned previously in my written submissions to
12     the CRTC later on.
13  1125                 The above-mentioned letters are
14     classic examples which these type of letters we receive
15     on a regular basis.  People from different age groups,
16     social and educational backgrounds who have different
17     needs to rely on Chinese radio broadcasts.  The three
18     classic examples that I have provided basically dissect
19     our listeners into three categories:  the younger
20     listeners, the newly arrived and the established
21     Canadians of Chinese heritage.
22  1126                 The three categories of listeners
23     have three common needs out of ethnic cultural radio
24     programming and they also present the three main
25     objectives in which our radio program is produced.


 1  1127                 Number one, to introduce Canadian
 2     culture to the new arrivals.
 3  1128                 Number two, to help the newly arrived
 4     or established immigrants to retain their own culture.
 5  1129                 Number three, to bridge the gap
 6     between the mainstream society and the ethnic
 7     community.
 8  1130                 In conclusion, the CHIN Chinese radio
 9     programming receives its support mainly from our
10     community.  Revenue is generated to sustain the
11     operation through retail advertisers within our
12     community.  Support from the mainstream society is also
13     obtained by national advertisers, although it has still
14     not yet reached the extent that we would like it to be.
15  1131                 As the producer of the CHIN Chinese
16     program, I would like to extend my thanks to the CRTC
17     for granting us the opportunity for ethnic cultural
18     programming and to allow myself the opportunity to
19     pursue my own career in the field that I enjoy very
20     much.  Our existence has definitely helped both the
21     Chinese community and the mainstream society to grow
22     together for a better and prosperous Canada.
23  1132                 Thank you.
24  1133                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
25     much, Ms Mar, and we would like to extend our thanks to


 1     you for being with us.
 2  1134                 MS MAR:  Thank you.
 3  1135                 MS RHÉAUME:  Our next speaker is Mr.
 4     John Zarrinmehr.  Mr. John Zarrinmehr.
 5  1136                 Mr. Bill Yancoff, producer for the
 6     Macedonian Heritage TV program on CFMT-TV.
 8  1137                 MR. YANCOFF:  Madames et messieurs,
 9     honourable members of the Canadian Radio-television and
10     Telecommunications Commission.  It is a great honour to
11     be able to address you regarding the CRTC's review on
12     its policy vis-à-vis third language and ethnic
13     programming.
14  1138                 Mnogu sum gord shto sekoya sabota
15     preku televiziskata programa, Makedonski Koreni,
16     prenesuvame vazhni novini za zhivotot vo Kanada.
17  1139                 I'm very proud that every Saturday on
18     the Macedonian Heritage television program we bring our
19     viewers important news about life in Canada.
20  1140                 As we do every Saturday morning on
21     CFMT-TV, Channel 47 in Toronto, and as we have been
22     doing since CFMT's inception, I addressed you in the
23     Macedonian language.
24  1141                 One of the Commission's questions is,
25     "Should there be a priority on the development of


 1     Canadian ethnocultural services rather than importing
 2     foreign services?"
 3  1142                 Absolutely!  Speaking in a third
 4     language within a Canadian context enables the
 5     Macedonian community and others to receive up-to-date
 6     information on life in Canada in Macedonian.  It
 7     promotes family issues, solid Canadian citizenship and
 8     the very ideals that make Canada second to none in the
 9     world.  it also assists in language retention, which in
10     my case stimulated me to learn the macedonian literary
11     language.  Canadian business and government delegations
12     now actively recruit third language speakers to benefit
13     Canadian trade and commerce.
14  1143                 Not only do we assist the integration
15     of new Canadians into Canadian society with
16     third-language programming, there are a number of other
17     benefits.  Over the past 10 years as producer of the
18     show, I have seen a number of positive developments on
19     a wide range of Canadian-based issues, presenting
20     information in the macedonian language, one of 19
21     languages promoted on CFMT-TV.
22  1144                 Regular interviews with
23     representatives of the police and all levels of
24     government enable our viewers to understand the rules
25     and regulations of the land, along with a chance to


 1     voice their opinions and make inquiries from
 2     information presented on these segments.  We also have
 3     presented important information regarding issues such
 4     as immigration, health and welfare concerns, the
 5     Canadian census and a wide variety of other topics.
 6  1145                 Promoting Macedonian language and
 7     culture greatly adds to the ethnocultural mosaic of
 8     this country and assists in the retention of one's
 9     heritage within a Canadian context.  I'm a vivid
10     example of that.  Born in Canada, it was an interview
11     on the Macedonian program on CFMT-TV in 1984, about a
12     Macedonian cultural extravaganza at Roy Thomson Hall,
13     Oro Makedonsko, that made me interested in learning
14     more about my heritage and about defining myself as a
15     Canadian of Macedonian origin, and how I could share
16     this rich culture with others.
17  1146                 To answer another of your queries,
18     the present broadcasting system does adequately serve
19     Canada's ethnocultural communities. 
20     Macedonian-Canadians and others from across the
21     Province of Ontario tune into our show on a regular
22     basis and, in some cases, respond en masse to
23     humanitarian issues presented on our show.  those in
24     need like Suzana Kazakova, a 21-year old Canadian of
25     Macedonian descent, who needs a bone marrow transplant,


 1     received thousands of calls from blood donors, thanks
 2     to our show and message in Macedonian.
 3  1147                 Many of those viewers were from
 4     Croatia, from Bulgaria, Yugoslavia.  They responded
 5     because they could understand Macedonian, which reveals
 6     a cross-cultural benefit of third-language programming. 
 7     There hasn't been a match yet for Suzana, but we will
 8     continue to promote her cause on the show and,
 9     hopefully, a match will be found soon.
10  1148                 It would be very advantageous for
11     CFMT-TV to broadcast nationally, so that we could
12     promote Canadian issues and Macedonian culture across
13     the country.  Viewers from outside Ontario regularly
14     inquire about the possibility of Macedonian Heritage
15     being aired in B.C. or Quebec or Alberta.  I urge the
16     Commission to consider the enhancement of Canadian
17     unity and cultural diversity that such a network would
18     most certainly provide.
19  1149                 Responding to another of the
20     Commission's questions, I believe that if we were to
21     solely import foreign services, we would not be
22     promoting Canadian ideals to our citizens.  It may
23     create disunity among some ethnocultural groups.  Some
24     countries promote ideals that are contrary to Canada's,
25     and may not be as understanding and accepting as those


 1     in this country, which are entrenched in government
 2     legislation and relate to human rights and freedoms
 3     that we sometimes take for granted.
 4  1150                 The CRTC's present policy adequately
 5     serves Canadians of all ethnic backgrounds.  It helps
 6     promote harmony among all Canadians because it provides
 7     access to all ethnocultural communities, not just the
 8     most populous groups that bring in the most revenue. 
 9     To alter this policy would be a form of discrimination
10     and would make ethnic programming exclusive, rather
11     than the current policy of the Commission that has
12     worked so well for so many years.  We urge you to
13     continue to provide third-language services to
14     Canadians of all backgrounds.
15  1151                 Macedonian-Canadians thank you for
16     the opportunity to watch Macedonian-language
17     programming.  Like some ethnocultural groups, our
18     macedonian language and culture are not promoted and as
19     accessible in some countries as they are in Canada,
20     which is a model for multicultural unity.  Hopefully,
21     Macedonian Heritage will be aired one day from coast to
22     coast on CFMT-TV, which is perhaps the greatest success
23     story of Canadian multiculturalism to date.
24  1152                 Vi blagodarime za vasheto ceneto
25     vnimanie.


 1  1153                 I thank you for your attention.
 2  1154                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 3     much, Mr. Yancoff.
 4  1155                 MS RHÉAUME:  Our next speaker is Dr.
 5     Colin Maloney, Executive Director for the Catholic
 6     Children's Aid Society.
 8  1156                 DR. MALONEY:  Thank you.
 9  1157                 Being Executive Director of a
10     mainstream agency that serves over 12,000 families a
11     year, with staff able to deliver services in 43
12     different languages, I just came to affirm to the CRTC
13     the issue for us is that ethnic television and radio
14     have been great partners to us.  Stations like
15     Telelatino and CHIN not just have the linguistic
16     ability as you could import from anywhere, but to
17     engage with us as true partners.
18  1158                 It is impressive with us that as we
19     try to reach and form and teach in a preventive way the
20     Canadian issues of child welfare, of parenting, of
21     difficulties, as we try to recruit foster homes for
22     children that are in need from various communities,
23     these stations have been willing to reach out with us
24     in partnership.  It is far beyond just having something
25     in their own language.  We have found these stations to


 1     be truly close to their communities, concerned of their
 2     issues and willing to be truly public servants with us
 3     as a mainstream agency, that I think it's just as a
 4     value I want to be here tonight to ensure that that
 5     partnership, that community based and that public
 6     service that I have felt are not lost just because some
 7     other -- from a linguistic point of view.
 8  1159                 We would be, as a mainstream agency,
 9     impoverished if that were to change drastically.
10  1160                 Thank you very much.
11  1161                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
12     much, Dr. Maloney.
13  1162                 MS RHÉAUME:  Our next speaker is Ms
14     Nellie Pedro.
16  1163                 MS PEDRO:  Good evening.  Thank you
17     very much for the opportunity.
18  1164                 First of all, I would like to say
19     that I consider myself to be an ethnic Canadian, in the
20     same way that there is French-Canadian,
21     English-Canadian.  I think it would be of importance to
22     ethnic groups to be classified as ethnic Canadians.
23  1165                 My name is Nellie pedro.  I am the
24     co-producer and host of "Gente da Nossa" a Type A TV
25     program in the Portuguese language.  "Gente da Nossa,"


 1     translated means "Our People".  It is part of the CHIN
 2     RADIO and TV ethnic programming broadcasting on one of
 3     the mainstream television stations CityTV, Channel 7. 
 4     I hope that my presentation here today will reflect the
 5     importance of having independent programming done, as
 6     well as mainstream stations providing air time to these
 7     particular programming.
 8  1166                 Allow me to give you a condensed
 9     history of "Gente da Nossa".  Caesar pedro is the
10     original producer who began the program in 1987 on
11     Graham Cable.
12  1167                 The program is 99 per cent portuguese
13     Canadian content.  We keep our audience informed and
14     entertained by providing images of activities organized
15     by our clubs and associations.  We provide video clips
16     of local artists, interviews to educators, labourers,
17     union representatives, doctors, politicians, musicians,
18     artists, painters, successful businesses, entrepreneurs
19     and role models of our community.
20  1168                 We take our cameras to cover events
21     in the portuguese communities in Ontario such as
22     Mississauga, Brampton, Hamilton, Cambridge, London,
23     Sarnia, Ottawa, Leamington, Windsor, Kingston.  We have
24     gone to other communities in provinces such as -- well,
25     in Montreal, St. John's, Newfoundland, Calgary, Bermuda


 1     and various parts of the United States, the Continent,
 2     Portugal, Madeira and the Azores.
 3  1169                 After volunteering our time to the
 4     program since 1987, we have to date produced 564 shows;
 5     40 of which were live call in shows.  Just to liven
 6     things up, I would like us all to watch them now.  No. 
 7     Okay.
 8  1170                 In September of 1997 we joined Chin's
 9     multicultural programming on CityTV.  We took on the
10     financial responsibility of producing a commercial
11     program for our community.  We have obtained sponsors,
12     generated advertising dollars, and are able to provide
13     revenue to pay for our air time to CHIN RADIO and
14     CityTV.
15  1171                 We know we are producing a program
16     which is unique, informative, educational, entertaining
17     and this all due to the feedback from hundreds of phone
18     calls and letters that we receive from our viewers.  I
19     would like to add that the viewers of Portuguese
20     language programming, such as our own, is not just
21     Portuguese-speaking people.  We have, and I have
22     letters which will be followed, from native Canadians
23     that watch the program and in one particular case a
24     native Canadian that lives in Bath, Ontario wrote to me
25     and sent me an Indian prayer and he specifically said


 1     that he doesn't understand what I am saying, but he
 2     enjoys the smile.  And not only that, but he enjoys the
 3     music as well and he is learning about my culture as he
 4     hopes the rest of Canada learns about his.
 5  1172                 We have a lot of Italian people that
 6     watch our program as well.
 7  1173                 On "Gente da Nossa" our priority is
 8     to promote the Portuguese community in a positive
 9     manner.  We provide air time to those that cannot get
10     air time on other Portuguese television programs.
11  1174                 As an example, recently we had a
12     guest that was a victim of a pedophile.  After his
13     abuser was convicted of two counts of sexual
14     molestation to a minor, the victim wanted to go on TV
15     to tell his story and to warn parents about the signs
16     to look for and how to protect their children from such
17     people.
18  1175                 According to him, he contacted all
19     the Portuguese language programs and no one would touch
20     the subject.  We did.  We gave him plenty of time. 
21     Perhaps the reason is that I have seven-year old and it
22     is important to provide the information to other
23     parents.  I believe that if this story was not told in
24     the Portuguese language the majority of the community
25     and of the audience, and especially the mothers, would


 1     not have the proper information to protect their
 2     children from such people as pedophiles.
 3  1176                 Another example of the importance of
 4     the program that we provide, as well as independent
 5     productions, is the fact that we had for the first time
 6     a wife abuser who wanted to come on.  He is a
 7     recovering abuser of family assault and wife assault
 8     and he wanted to come on to tell and encourage other
 9     men that this was wrong, that this was not right and
10     that they should seek help and that help is available
11     and that they could be cured.  We provided the air time
12     for him to come on and do so.  We interviewed him in
13     Portuguese and it was extremely important and one of
14     the programs that we had a lot of phone calls and a lot
15     of mail from because of its social impact in the
16     community.  For the first time, a man was willing to
17     speak and we were willing to put him on TV and hear
18     him.
19  1177                 We provide the air time and did --
20  1178                 If the CRTC policy did not allow
21     mainstream television stations to provide ethnic
22     programming in Types A and D without prior Commission
23     approval, I would not be able to provide my show to the
24     community.
25  1179                 I urge the Commission to encourage


 1     conventional television stations to be more culturally
 2     sensitive.  Provide the 15 per cent of their weekly
 3     programming schedule permitted, either Type A to D, or
 4     to produce their own Type E programs directed at ethnic
 5     groups, depicting Canada's diversity through programs
 6     that are multicultural, educational, informational and
 7     intercultural in nature.
 8  1180                 I am requesting that 15 per cent of
 9     the weekly programming on mainstream stations is
10     realistic, considering that in Toronto alone
11     approximately 33 per cent of the residents report the
12     exclusive use in the house of a language other than
13     French or English.
14  1181                 I just want to tell you a little bit
15     about my particular community.  We have different
16     numbers than Statistics Canada.  According to our
17     community, we have approximately 750,000 Portuguese
18     Canadians, 500,000 in Ontario, 220,000 in the Toronto
19     area, 96,000 in Mississauga and Brampton and the
20     remaining are in southwestern Ontario, Ottawa,
21     Kingston, as well as northern Ontario, including
22     Sudbury.  I also have had calls from Baffin Island,
23     from six Portuguese that are working in a lounge there
24     that watch my show, so that's great.  I need those six
25     viewers.


 1  1182                 The Portuguese in Toronto make up 2.3
 2     per cent of the population by mother tongue.  It's the
 3     third largest non-English group in the Greater Toronto
 4     Area after the Chinese and Italian and the Portuguese
 5     have been in Canada since the 1950s.  Eighty-five per
 6     cent of Portuguese Canadians view programs in their
 7     mother tongue.
 8  1183                 I do not see the need for the CRTC to
 9     provide protection to licensees of ethnic television
10     stations by placing a ceiling of no more than 10 per
11     cent allowed of ethnic programming on their weekly
12     schedules to television stations in the same market. 
13     Since it is permitted up to 15 per cent, it is not
14     encouraging to see the CRTC places a cap of 10 per cent
15     in order to protect ethnic stations.
16  1184                 It is difficult to believe the claim
17     that the bulk of the revenue that ethnic television
18     stations generate is from 40 per cent of non-Canadian,
19     non-ethnic programming.  I really hope that that is not
20     a fact.
21  1185                 If it is not ethnic revenues that are
22     providing the funding for ethnic television stations,
23     then why keep them?  Why not just allow television
24     stations to provide more air time to independent
25     producers and allow for programming that is fitting to


 1     one of the program Types A to E and let producers show
 2     their freedom of expression and creativity to their
 3     ethnic audience.
 4  1186                 With the increasingly multicultural
 5     and multilingual nature of Canada's population, I
 6     believe that specific policy is needed and this should
 7     include policy for foreign distribution via satellite
 8     that apply for services via cable.  This service should
 9     be allowed, I believe, but it should have the same
10     percentage as ethnic stations now have to comply with. 
11     I believe that 60/40 would be reasonable.  There is
12     need in our own community to have this particular,
13     including foreign satellite, viewed in people's home
14     through cable and through my program I have 11,000
15     signatures on a petition which I could provide to the
16     CRTC, which they would like to have cable access to
17     RTPI.  However, they do want to keep their programming
18     and the only fair way of doing that is to be able to
19     have a percentage in the same manner that the ethnic
20     stations have and I do believe that 60/40 is right.
21  1187                 This is the only way of protecting
22     the community clubs, organizations that my program
23     services.  This is the only way that the ethnic groups
24     can continue to reflect Canada's national, regional and
25     local experience through their television programming. 


 1     Allowing 100 per cent of any foreign service to be
 2     aired on cable is establishing cultural media ghettos
 3     within Canada.
 4  1188                 The Canadian Broadcasting Act states,
 5     and I am sure you know of it, that the Canadian
 6     broadcasting system should serve the needs and
 7     interests and reflect the circumstances and aspirations
 8     of Canadian men, women and children, including equal
 9     rights, the logistic duality and multicultural and
10     multiracial nature of Canadian society.
11  1189                 In phrasing so, I would like to know
12     if ethnic television stations and program producers
13     were able to access at least 10 per cent of the public
14     revenues that CBC receives we would all be a lot
15     happier as ethnic program producers.
16  1190                 If the CBC would have to follow the
17     same policy that ethnic program stations and producers
18     follow I am sure that the CBC would not be quite happy
19     with what they would be asked to do, but they would be
20     providing a Canadian national network by at least
21     reflecting exactly what Canadian culture is all about,
22     diversity.  I believe that our own Canadian national
23     network should be the first one to do so and perhaps
24     provide and be asked to provide a lot more of the Type
25     E programming that the CRTC specifies.


 1  1191                 Yes, mainstream radio and television
 2     stations should be encouraged to broadcast Type E
 3     programming, but let's start first of all with that
 4     particular one, the CBC.  If CBC's programming can
 5     reflect the true nature and the true diversity of
 6     Canada, then perhaps we would all be a lot more
 7     educated and a lot more ethically cultural and more
 8     ethnic Canadians.
 9  1192                 I believe that I am at the end of it. 
10     I would just like to let you know that I want to thank,
11     first of all, CHIN RADIO.  Mr. Lombardi is here,
12     junior, and CityTV.  I will be providing a written
13     brief which will go in depth into the questions in the
14     review policy, as well as some letters from viewers and
15     sponsors of the program.
16  1193                 Thank you.
17  1194                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
18     much, Ms Pedro.  I want to ask you one quick question
19     of clarification before we take a short break.
20  1195                 If I understood you correctly, you
21     said that you are in favour of foreign services being
22     licensed into the Canadian market, but you think they
23     should be subject to the same 60/40 requirement?
24  1196                 MS PEDRO:  Yes.
25  1197                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Considering that we


 1     don't really have jurisdiction, not that we don't
 2     really, we don't have jurisdiction --
 3  1198                 MS PEDRO:  You should.
 4  1199                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  I was trying to be
 5     soft about it.  We don't have jurisdiction over foreign
 6     services.  How would you suggest that we enforce the
 7     60/40 split?
 8  1200                 MS PEDRO:  Do you have jurisdiction
 9     over what is broadcast in Canada?
10  1201                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  If we authorize a
11     service for distribution on a distribution undertaking
12     that's one thing, but we can't control their content.
13  1202                 MS PEDRO:  I am not asking you to
14     control their content.  I am asking that within the 24
15     hours or within the one week that 60 per cent of that
16     be the foreign service and that 40 per cent of it be
17     production, Canadian production in the ethnic
18     programming language.
19  1203                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  I see.  You are
20     suggesting someone apply for --
21  1204                 MS PEDRO:  Absolutely.
22  1205                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  -- a channel.
23  1206                 MS PEDRO:  Absolutely.
24  1207                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Which would
25     incorporate 60 per cent of the programming which


 1     appears on the foreign service and 40 per cent would be
 2     Canadian?
 3  1208                 MS PEDRO:  Absolutely.
 4  1209                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  That's an
 5     interesting suggestion.  I am glad I asked.
 6  1210                 Thank you.
 7  1211                 MS PEDRO:  You are welcome.
 8  1212                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  We are going to
 9     take a 15-minute break.  We will be back at twenty-five
10     minutes after nine.
11     --- Short recess at 2105 / Courte suspension à 2105
12     --- Upon resuming at 2125 / Reprise à 2125
13  1213                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Ladies and
14     gentlemen, I would ask you to take your seats and we
15     will get a move on or shake a leg, as the saying goes.
16  1214                 We are on the home stretch.  I
17     believe we have 11 or 12 parties yet to make their
18     presentations.  So once again I would encourage you
19     kindly to keep your remarks to 10 minutes, so that we
20     can get through them by a reasonable hour.
21  1215                 Madam Secretary.
22  1216                 MS RHÉAUME:  Our next speaker is Mr.
23     Bob Cousins.
25  1217                 MR. COUSINS:  Thank you, ladies and


 1     gentlemen from the CRTC.
 2  1218                 I will try to be as brief as I can,
 3     although after doing this for nearly two decades it
 4     really needs a whole lot more time, but I will take
 5     advantage of the opportunity to make a written
 6     submission, along with some of the comments I will make
 7     right here.
 8  1219                 There is a rather bulky performer in
 9     Nashville.  His name is Johnny Russell, who is quite
10     funny too, is a great songwriter and he says "Can
11     everybody see me all right?"  I think you can and I
12     believe you can hear me all right.
13  1220                 I am very grateful for this
14     opportunity to speak directly to each of you this
15     evening on ethnic programming and to offer some
16     constructive suggestions on how to improve the delivery
17     of this essential service.  Under the present
18     legislation there is room for abuse and unfairness can
19     be practised.  The owner of a multicultural licence can
20     take any unilateral action he wishes and the
21     producer/host has little or no protection in the Act or
22     the legislation.
23  1221                 Often you have an air tenure at the
24     whim of the broadcaster or the holder of the licence. 
25     The rights of the producer should be enshrined in new


 1     legislation.  Each producer should become a member of
 2     the board of directors.  Radio and television station
 3     policies would more reflect the wishes and the needs of
 4     the producers and the communities that they serve.
 5  1222                 In most cases the producers sell the
 6     time that they have acquired from the licence holder to
 7     advertisers in a community at large.  There are many
 8     obstacles to the successful pursuit of the advertising
 9     dollar in this very competitive marketplace.  I am
10     going to list five.
11  1223                 The station has a sales force of its
12     own in competition with the producers.  Unfair.
13  1224                 B - stations limit the marketplace. 
14     National advertisers, for instance, belong to the
15     station.
16  1225                 C - multicultural radio does not
17     subscribe to the BBM I understand, or the three
18     stations that I have been at, which means that tool is
19     not available to the producer to help him make a sale.
20  1226                 D, or No. 4, most advertisers who can
21     fit the format and afford the producer the revenue to
22     pay the costs are represented by often hostile
23     advertising agencies.  Agencies who, if you succeed in
24     getting to them, insist on loads of demographic
25     material that only the big commercial radio station has


 1     the resources to provide -- a very serious handicap. 
 2     Try getting Labatt's or Molson's or somebody like that
 3     on side for your radio program.  You've got to have
 4     more clout than this Newfie boy.
 5  1227                 No. 5.  Often business firms will buy
 6     advertising only from the ethnic radio show of their
 7     own cultural community or heritage.  There is nothing
 8     fair or just about the above.  The station should not
 9     have a sales force that competes against the producer. 
10     Both parties should be seen to be pursuing the same
11     goals.  As it now stands, the producer is always the
12     loser.
13  1228                 A fellow told me one time, if you
14     want to give advice to a soldier, walk in a soldier's
15     shoes.  Well, for nearly 20 years in multicultural
16     radio in Ontario I have been there.  Even though I got
17     a shower there's still some blood on me.
18  1229                 The station should not limit the
19     scope of the producer's sales reach, as is stated in B
20     above.
21  1230                 Looking at item C and D, it is clear
22     that the multiculture station should subscribe to the
23     BBM and give the producer all the tools he needs to
24     reach his potential advertising customer.
25  1231                 Not all groups are strong enough to


 1     support their own radio and television programs
 2     financially and there are many reasons for this.  In my
 3     case, much of my audience is drawn from the Atlantic
 4     basin.  They are employees, not employers.  They have
 5     lived in the Atlantic region for generations; Irish,
 6     English, Welsh, French and Scottish in the main.
 7  1232                 Unlike the newer Canadians, most of
 8     the Atlantic ex-patriots merely down the road to get a
 9     job in their own country, while the newer Canadian came
10     into the country to make a new home, a new life and he
11     determined that he should create a job, a business and
12     be a captain of industry, trade or commerce, not an
13     employee subject to the ups and downs of the economy
14     and the whim of an employer.  Often these newer
15     Canadians have certain financial advantages from
16     government programs and funding such as multicultural
17     funding.
18  1233                 So the Atlantic programmer, the
19     producer or the host, does not have the business base
20     to draw on for revenues.  A fair-minded subsidy must be
21     arrived at to make up for this inequality.
22  1234                 There should be some options here to
23     overcome this handicap.  Consider several cable
24     television channels that could pool their revenue and
25     share the 24-hour day among major groups, such as the


 1     Portuguese and the black community, the Chinese.  I
 2     think the Italians are well looked after.  Cable
 3     television channels that could pool their revenue and
 4     share the 24-hour day would be something for the CRTC
 5     to give serious consideration to.
 6  1235                 The Canadian Broadcasting Corporation
 7     should make some of its radio time available for shows
 8     such as mine.  A block of time at CBC television and
 9     Newsworld should be directed to accept shows such as
10     mine.  So far the doors are shut tight.
11  1236                 By the way, I don't want to sound
12     like I'm a whiner.  I'm a pretty positive guy.  I would
13     tell you a few jokes if we had time, but we don't have
14     time.  I know you want to recognize a Newfie in heaven
15     when you get there.  That's the fellow who keeps on
16     saying, "Boys, when are we going home?"  You are
17     allowed to laugh here, you know.
18  1237                 But anyway, there are some problems
19     with this and we can fix it if we are men and women of
20     goodwill.
21  1238                 The ethnic broadcasting should not be
22     limited to the new or the third language.  Think how
23     unfair that is.  Don't you think the Irish still yearn
24     for the songs of home?  For your information by the
25     way, per capita there are more Irish in New Brunswick


 1     than any other province.  In Newfoundland there is
 2     about 40 per cent.  The songs of home, mother Ireland.
 3  1239                 And don't these ex-patriots of Nova
 4     Scotia, living in Mississauga or Brampton, don't they
 5     hear the songs of the bagpipes?  They don't hear them
 6     on CHUM.  They don't hear them on CFRB.  They don't
 7     hear them on 1430-CHKT.  When I was on there I used to
 8     say that stood for "coaster hearts keep ticking".
 9  1240                 Don't you think they want to hear the
10     songs of their childhood?  How many of you heard the
11     song "A Mother's Love is a Blessing"?  That's what our
12     cultural makeup is all about.  "Kelly's Mountain" by
13     Harold MacIntyre, "The Ghost of Bras d'or," "The Song
14     for the Myra".  We get to hear that once in a while
15     because a child of the CBC, Anne Murray, became a great
16     American star and we get to hear Annie sing "The Song
17     for the Myra".
18  1241                 What about the fiddle tunes of Don
19     Messer and the Islanders?  Some of you know what
20     happened to that show, don't you.  Some very, very
21     clever fellows at the CBC in Toronto years ago decided
22     to axe the most popular television show of all time. 
23     That same mentality existed a couple of years ago when
24     country music, which was born in the USA of the songs
25     of the Irish and the Scottish and the English and the


 1     Cajuns that we sent away from the Atlantic region back
 2     in the Seven Years' War to the southern USA, the CBC
 3     saw fit to dump the Tommy Hunter Show.  That's country
 4     music -- music of the people.  Then recently they got
 5     another virus and they got rid of the Rita McNeil Show.
 6  1242                 Think about John Alan Cameron of Cape
 7     Breton and Harry Hibbs of Newfoundland.  Both of them
 8     can be considered the two that led to the rise of
 9     interest in all things Celtic in Toronto.  It took more
10     than 30 years for the songs in the bars and the clubs
11     of Toronto to convince the boys back home that Toronto
12     and Canada would be receptive if they polished up the
13     music of their forefathers.  And now you hear the
14     Rankins a fair bit, the Barragh MacNeil's, Natalie
15     McMaster, Ashley McIsaac.  That's just the tip of the
16     iceberg.  The vast majority of those you could have
17     heard them on CIAO radio one time when I had a voice
18     there.
19  1243                 You could have heard them one time
20     late Sunday night on 1250-CHWO when I had a voice
21     there, and you could have heard them, four straight
22     hours, the Breakfast Club on 1430-CHKT, which stands
23     for "coaster hearts keep ticking," with Bob the
24     Codfish, yours truly, but that voice is silent.
25  1244                 Yes, sir, the sad truth is that only


 1     a fraction of that good stuff has seen the light of
 2     day.  The advantage seems to be given to the new
 3     Canadian.  See the title of this review -- it says
 4     right here, "CRTC to review its policy on third
 5     language".  As the song says, "when will they ever
 6     learn up in Ottawa".
 7  1245                 I hope I am moving along as quickly
 8     as i can.
 9  1246                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Maybe one more
10     minute.
11  1247                 MR. COUSINS:  By golly, have I used
12     up nine?
13  1248                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  It goes really
14     fast.
15  1249                 MR. COUSINS:  This is a letter from
16     Jean Gilbert.  She's at the Memorial Hospital in
17     Brampton.  She wrote this when she learned that I
18     couldn't promote their lobster festival.  It's a
19     charity group, the Lions Club and so on.  She says,
20     "It's sad to think that immigrants are given more
21     consideration than the population who has been born and
22     bred in Canada, spend their whole lives making Canada,
23     Ontario and Brampton a better place to live in and also
24     a place where many of these immigrants come to reside
25     and reap the benefits of what Canadians have worked so


 1     hard to achieve over many years."  She is saying that
 2     there is no fair play.
 3  1250                 Back to funding again.  Consider a
 4     new lottery whose proceeds could go to fund
 5     multiculture radio.  I prefer the term "public radio"
 6     as I think the other word, "multiculture" covers the
 7     services for newer Canadians only.  It's also divisive
 8     and counterproductive.
 9  1251                 Don't leave it to the private
10     broadcaster as he is not interested in the music of the
11     people, folk music.  You have the broadcaster fighting
12     you now over the 35 per cent Cancon, and now since
13     especially many radio stations are calling themselves
14     new country, little or nothing gets played that would
15     be considered traditional country or folk or Cajun or
16     Celtic or coaster music.  Where is Stompin' Tom and Ned
17     Landry, Gene MacLellan of PEI.  Does anybody here --
18     can you name one of the two songs that that man wrote? 
19     A great songwriter from PEI.  He wrote "Put Your Hand
20     in the Hand of the Man".  He wrote "Snowbird" for Annie
21     Murray and much more, but we don't hear him on private
22     radio.  We don't hear him on multicultural radio.
23  1252                 No.  Too ethnic they tell you.  Will
24     they play the songs of Roy Payne, the most prolific
25     songwriter of Newfoundland?  No.  Wrote a great song,


 1     "The Little Boats of Newfoundland".  Newfoundlanders
 2     cry, and others too, when they listen to the words of
 3     that song.  Too ethnic they tell you.
 4  1253                 I am going to do a couple more notes
 5     here until you cut me off.  Radio should offer songs,
 6     not only in your personal collection and, more
 7     importantly, it passes on the history and the tradition
 8     of music and in our case that of the coast.  Without
 9     hearing those so-called classics on the radio, our
10     youth will never know what came before.
11  1254                 We all lose by not having access to
12     the vast treasury of our music greats.  How can we have
13     a culture as vibrant and as rich as the U.S. if the
14     Canadian broadcaster continues to feel he has no place
15     in the scheme of developing a star system?
16  1255                 As it stands, neither the private nor
17     public broadcaster is doing the job that the
18     Broadcasting Act calls for.  Carefully consider some
19     priorities; encourage the new Canadians to do
20     productions of music in Canada.  Now much of the
21     revenue from the sums paid to SOCAN are going out of
22     the country to foreign writers and producers, and in
23     the case of my former radio station, 1430-CHKT, I would
24     assume that more than 70 per cent appears to be foreign
25     content.  My show was 99 per cent Canadian Cancon.


 1  1256                 Factor does not work for the producer
 2     of public radio shows.  Open up Factor and give it the
 3     funds to assist producers such as us.
 4  1257                 Producers need bridge financing at
 5     low interest rates.  Small sums of money will keep
 6     small but essential producers on the air.  Politicians
 7     must pay more than lip service.  At least assist
 8     producers who seek their help and that goes for the
 9     CRTC too.  There have been walls of silence or nearly
10     that.  I have experienced that int he past seven
11     months.  I have no time to make strong comments or
12     quotes here, but I can.
13  1258                 Now, the needs of my audience are
14     being neglected.  No news from the coast, no music, no
15     information on events, nothing on the Music Awards show
16     in its eleventh year, the four Atlantic provinces have
17     a great awards show and they are meeting in St. John's
18     on February 11 to the 14.  Nobody in my community knows
19     about that.
20  1259                 I will just take one more moment, if
21     I may.  This year on March 31 will mark the fiftieth
22     anniversary of Newfoundland's entry into Confederation. 
23     Now, there was a time when some Canadians felt that
24     Canada should be united from ocean unto ocean and the
25     dream and the vision of John A. Macdonald was realized


 1     in 1949.  My province -- my native province, I stand
 2     for all four and Ontario as well and Canada, and I am a
 3     citizen of the world in its broadest respect.  I grew
 4     up with Americans on an Air Force base in Newfoundland. 
 5     The world was at my doorstep and I have no malice
 6     toward any man or woman here or elsewhere.
 7  1260                 But let me just say this, that you
 8     people are unaware that we are calling this in
 9     Newfoundland this year "Soirée '99," but if this voice
10     were allowed to be on a multicultural radio station in
11     Greater Toronto Area, you would hear about it.
12  1261                 Silent too is the government in
13     Ottawa.  You don't read it in the mainstream
14     newspapers, Newfoundland celebrating the fact that it's
15     50 years as the tenth province, and what has been going
16     on in multicultural radio has been going on for the
17     past 50 years with the east coast of Canada, raped,
18     pillaged, exploited, huge factory ships vacuum up the
19     renewable resource, the cod and the rest of it in the
20     Atlantic region.
21  1262                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Cousins, I am
22     really sorry to interrupt you, but you have had about
23     20 minutes now.
24  1263                 MR. COUSINS:  I would like 30 seconds
25     more, if I may, and I thank you.


 1  1264                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  I would like to
 2     thank you for your views and I would encourage you to
 3     put any other comments that you would like to make on
 4     the public record in writing.
 5  1265                 MR. COUSINS:  One final comment, if I
 6     may, Madam Chairman.
 7  1266                 I have a brochure from Nashville. 
 8     They have a Grand Ole Opry, they call it, on WSM radio,
 9     celebrating about 75 years in existence right now. 
10     That radio station and that institution led to country
11     music becoming the biggest format music in the world. 
12     All of us here tonight understand how valuable radio
13     and a radio show is.  I stand to work with anybody and
14     everybody and it is most regrettable that you will not
15     hear "the codfish" on Saturday morning.  That voice has
16     been silenced.  Perhaps you could help us get a voice
17     back again.
18  1267                 I just want to also say that I saw in
19     the paper that the gates are being opened to help the
20     black community get a radio licence.  I endorse and
21     support that.
22  1268                 Thank you so much.  Even though I am
23     not on the air, I still feel I am a part of the
24     community that I sit among and I have the greatest,
25     most profound respect for you.  Let's fix it because


 1     Canada will be in trouble otherwise.
 2  1269                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 3     much, Mr. Cousins.
 4  1270                 MR. COUSINS:  Thank you.
 5  1271                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
 6  1272                 MS RHÉAUME:  The next speaker is Mr.
 7     Calvin Wong, Regional Director for Fairchild Media.
 9  1273                 MR. WONG:  Good evening,
10     Commissioners, and members of the public.  I am Calvin
11     Wong, Regional Director of Fairchild Media Group.
12  1274                 Fairchild welcomes the opportunity to
13     participate in the Commission's review of third
14     language and ethnic broadcasting policy.  We appreciate
15     in particular the Commission's efforts to reach out to
16     individuals within many multicultural communities in
17     Canada and to gain an appreciation of the role ethnic
18     broadcasting plays in the lives of Canadians.
19  1275                 We believe the current policy has
20     been critical in the development of distinctive ethnic
21     service and remains a key factor to our success.
22  1276                 The Fairchild Media Group has a
23     significant commitment to the Canadian ethnic
24     broadcasting, with interests in four radio stations, as
25     well as our specialty television service, Fairchild


 1     Television and Talentvision.
 2  1277                 Fairchild first entered ethnic radio
 3     broadcasting in 1992, when we were issued a licence for
 4     CJVB-AM Vancouver.  Since then, Fairchild has expanded
 5     through the acquisition of the AM-1430, which our
 6     friend Bob Cousins just referred to, in Toronto and new
 7     FM undertakings in Calgary and Vancouver, which we
 8     operate in partnership with the OK Radio Group.
 9  1278                 In addition, we produce a total of 29
10     hours of Chinese programs per week on CIRV-FM in
11     Toronto.  Recently, we received authority to utilize
12     the SCMO of our Vancouver FM to provide a
13     Korean-language service.
14  1279                 In keeping with the current policy
15     framework, these stations each face the challenge of
16     serving a wide range of cultural groups in a
17     significant number of different languages.  For
18     example, 14 cultural groups in a minimum of 15
19     different languages are served by our Toronto AM
20     station.  We are proud of the tremendous variety of
21     programming these stations provide to a broad
22     cross-section of communities, including Cambodians,
23     Jamaicans, Greeks, Malay, Laotian, Persian, Indians,
24     Vietnamese and Korean.
25  1280                 To further advance multiethnic


 1     broadcasting, Fairchild Radio recently established a
 2     scholarship at Ryerson University School of
 3     Broadcasting, aimed at promoting cross-cultural
 4     understanding and expanding the presence of Canadians
 5     from different ethnic backgrounds in the media.
 6  1281                 At the television side, in 1993 we
 7     acquired the assets of Chinavision, a national Chinese
 8     language specialty undertaking.  Today Fairchild
 9     Television continues to serve the Canadian Chinese
10     community, broadcasting primarily in Cantonese.  About
11     300,000 subscribers currently receive the service via
12     cable, direct-to-home satellite, or in the more limited
13     areas by MDS.
14  1282                 In addition to Fairchild Television,
15     we also operate Talentvision, a regional specialty
16     undertaking acquired in 1993 which serves over 14,000
17     British Columbia subscribers.
18  1283                 Talentvision focuses on the fast
19     growing Mandarin speaking population and also carries
20     programs in Korean and Vietnamese.
21  1284                 Fairchild Television and Talentvision
22     provide a mix of Canadian and foreign programming, with
23     news and information produced in our Toronto and
24     Vancouver studios.
25  1285                 We also produce and show the Chinese


 1     dubbed version of English TV programs, such as CTV's
 2     W5, CBC's Venture and TVO's Inquiring Minds during our
 3     prime time.  We are also pleased to report that
 4     increasingly these Canadian productions are in demand
 5     as exports to other countries.  For example, Time Line
 6     magazine, a weekly public affairs magazine prime story,
 7     a documentary series profiling Chinese Canadians and
 8     our language/teaching programs are shown in Hong Kong
 9     now and will be soon seen in southern China.
10  1286                 Both through our programming and as a
11     corporate citizen Fairchild has made a concerted effort
12     to be connected to the communities we serve and, in
13     turn, to connect our viewers to each other and to other
14     Canadians.  To illustrate the above statement, I would
15     like to draw your attention to the busy schedule of our
16     staff in the next two weeks.
17  1287                 First, we will be hosting a total of
18     12 community events around town to celebrate the
19     Chinese New Year.
20  1288                 Secondly, we are conducting the
21     winter clothing drive for the Salvation Army.  With our
22     last record was a total of 88 tons of clothing
23     collected in a month's time, and at the same time our
24     news department is mapping out a strategy for the
25     coverage of the federal budget and the forthcoming


 1     Ontario election.
 2  1289                 Our experience in both radio and
 3     television has confirmed the important role ethnic
 4     service can play in the Canadian broadcasting system by
 5     strengthening the multicultural fabric of our
 6     community.  We firmly believe there continues to be a
 7     need for distinct ethnic policy and that the
 8     fine-tuning may as part of this review should build on
 9     the strong framework already in place.
10  1290                 We appreciate that public
11     consultation is not a forum for a detailed analysis. 
12     We will, therefore, highlight on only a few key points.
13  1291                 On the radio side, Fairchild believes
14     the current Canadian and ethnic content level remains
15     appropriate.  However, licensees must be provided with
16     greater flexibility in the scheduling of programming. 
17     This flexibility will allow market demand to regulate
18     program schedules, while the existing safeguards
19     continue to ensure the quantity and the diversity of
20     ethnic programming.
21  1292                 We appreciate the need for the
22     diversity of ethnic programming, but asking a more
23     popular language group to subsidize other language
24     groups is not helpful to the development of ethnic
25     radio.


 1  1293                 We are very happy to play our part in
 2     the family of Canadian broadcasters, but the burden of
 3     supporting service to very small groups should not
 4     solely rest on the shoulders of ethnic broadcasters.
 5  1294                 In television, Fairchild has a number
 6     of recommendations.  First, we believe ethnic service
 7     should be afforded the same access to distribution as
 8     the Canadian specialty service -- in other words, upon
 9     the earlier of September 1, 1999 or the introduction of
10     digital cable.  Fairchild Television continues to
11     struggle to obtain cable distribution.
12  1295                 In October 1997, thanks to the quick
13     and decisive intervention of the Commission, many
14     Fairchild subscribers in Toronto and Vancouver were
15     spared from losing the service.
16  1296                 While we are available in Toronto,
17     Vancouver, Edmonton, Calgary and Victoria, the service
18     is not carried in Montreal, Winnipeg, Ottawa, the
19     Atlantic provinces or in many of the growing
20     communities around Toronto, such as Oakville,
21     Newmarket, Whitby, Ajax.
22  1297                 Secondly, Fairchild supports the
23     existing policy which refuses to add a foreign service
24     to the eligible list, which would be competitive with a
25     Canadian specialty licence.  This continued protection


 1     is vital to the growth of distinctive ethnic
 2     programming.
 3  1298                 Finally, Fairchild does not believe
 4     the licensing of a national ethnic network is
 5     consistent with the evolving lists of the Canadian
 6     ethnic communities, particularly in a digital
 7     environment.  Like all Canadians, ethnic viewers want
 8     to assess a variety of programming in the language of
 9     their choice, at times to suit their daily schedule.  A
10     national multiethnic network would not only fail to
11     meet these needs, but would threaten the viability of
12     the specialty services that do.
13  1299                 However, should the Commission see
14     fit to licence such a network, we believe its condition
15     of licence must be structured to protect existing third
16     language specialty services.
17  1300                 In closing, I would like to say
18     something from my own personal experience.  I studied
19     mass communications in university before I came to
20     Canada.  I worked for 18 years in radio and television
21     broadcasting in Hong Kong.  Right now I am very pleased
22     to say that because of the current policy framework I
23     am able to employ every bit of my experience and
24     knowledge in my work with Fairchild to contribute to
25     the development of the Canadian media industry.


 1  1301                 I have been to places in the U.S.,
 2     Australia and Europe where large ethnic Chinese
 3     populations do exist.  I am proud to report that Canada
 4     produces the highest quality and the largest quantity
 5     of Chinese television and radio programs outside of
 6     Asia.  I hope through this policy review we can work to
 7     further improve our system, that such a rewarding
 8     experience can be offered to those who are now working
 9     and those who will be joining the growing family of
10     Canadian ethnic broadcasters.
11  1302                 I look forward to listening to the
12     remaining submissions and would be pleased to answer
13     any questions that you may have.
14  1303                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
15     much, Mr. Wong.
16  1304                 I don't think we have any questions,
17     but that's an interesting piece of information that you
18     shared with us about the amount of Chinese programming
19     that is being done in Canada.
20  1305                 Thank you for bringing that to our
21     attention.
22  1306                 MR. WONG:  Thank you.
23  1307                 MS RHÉAUME:  The next speaker is
24     Hanny Hassan.


 1  1308                 MR. HASSAN:  Thank you.
 2  1309                 Good evening, Commissioners.  Just a
 3     word about my affiliations.  I am the President of the
 4     Council of the Muslim Community of Canada, a member
 5     organization of the Canadian Ethnocultural Council, an
 6     umbrella organization of some communities across
 7     Canada.  I am the Past President of the Ontario
 8     Advisory Council on Multiculturalism and Citizenship,
 9     in which capacity I was responsible for providing
10     policy advice to the Government of Ontario on matters
11     of multiculturalism and citizenship.  And, finally, I
12     should tell you that I am on the Community Advisory
13     Committee of CFMT-TV.
14  1310                 I applaud your endurance and
15     attention to everyone tonight and since I have provided
16     written copies of my text I will skip some of the text
17     in the interests of trying to move things along.
18  1311                 Many of the speakers tonight have
19     spoken about the multicultural characteristic of
20     Canada, both in its legislative and constitutional
21     ways.  I won't go into the details.  However, it is our
22     position that all agencies and institutions of
23     government based on the constitutional legislation are
24     obligated to formulate policies and implement systems
25     that are consistent with the multicultural character of


 1     Canada.
 2  1312                 Specifically, the broadcast system
 3     has under its particular legislation been directed to
 4     address the diverse needs of Canada's population.  I
 5     might just add here that I take some exception to the
 6     comments of Mr. Cousins.  I digress here.  While he may
 7     have some particular grievances with which I am quite
 8     sympathetic relating to others outside of the
 9     ethno-cultural communities, it is in fact a policy of
10     Canada for some time to recognize the distinctiveness
11     of this society and the diversity.  In my capacity as
12     the President of the Ontario Advisory Council, in fact
13     our inclusive definition of multiculturalism in fact
14     included English and French-speaking people, people of
15     those origins and the native community.  We speak
16     tonight of diversity and not simply of the ethnic
17     composition of Canada.
18  1313                 In terms of the demographic changes
19     that have occurred in Canada over the last 35 years or
20     so, it has not only increased the number of people
21     within the ethnocultural population, but also its
22     diversity.  Long-term demographic needs, including
23     Canada's relatively low birthrate and aging population,
24     indicate that Canada will require immigrants for
25     workforce development and for the support of our social


 1     service programs.  Similar demographic trends exist in
 2     Asia -- in Europe.  Consequently, new immigrants will
 3     continue to come from a variety of countries,
 4     representing diverse linguistic, racial, ethnic and
 5     religious communities.
 6  1314                 Consequently, in addition to the
 7     legislative responsibility, there is a need for
 8     broadcast systems to be representative of the diverse
 9     population and that need will increase in the future.
10  1315                 The CRTC has recognized this in its
11     1985 Public Notice and it wrote in that document
12     extensively on its position on multiculturalism. 
13     Parenthetically, one wonders why the announcement on
14     this policy review, however, has been entitled "Third
15     Language and Ethnic Programming" rather than
16     "Programming for Canada's Linguistic and Cultural
17     Diversity" as the policy has been called.
18  1316                 In my view, the new nomenclature
19     marginalizes those whose first language is not either
20     French or English and who come from other ethnocultural
21     communities.
22  1317                 The Commission intends to examine the
23     relevance of its ethnic broadcasting policy in the
24     light of increasing availability of ethnocultural
25     services from sources other than ethnic stations.  It


 1     seems to me that it is self-evident that the CRTC is
 2     obligated to continue to develop its policies with
 3     respect to linguistic and cultural diversity.  In
 4     answer to questions in section 29(2) of the Public
 5     Notice, the answer is a resounding no.  The needs
 6     cannot be met without a policy.  Even if the needs
 7     could be met, the CRTC has a responsibility to
 8     formulate a policy.
 9  1318                 The availability of alternative or
10     additional services does not diminish either the
11     responsibility or the need for a policy, just as the
12     maturation of French-language programs would not
13     diminish or distinguish the need for a policy in that
14     regard.  In fact, in the clause of the Broadcasting Act
15     referring to cultural diversity, the multicultural and
16     multiracial responsibilities are contained and have the
17     same footing as the need to reflect the linguistic
18     duality of Canada.
19  1319                 Our objective should not be to
20     determine the need for such a policy, but to develop
21     this content and the mechanisms that will be used to
22     implement the policy.
23  1320                 It is imperative that a distinct
24     framework be responsive to Canada's linguistic and
25     cultural communities.  The absence of a policy and


 1     regulations would relegate the multilingual and
 2     multicultural communities to the margins of the
 3     broadcast system.
 4  1321                 Market forces cannot be expected to
 5     be responsive to these needs.  The sparseness of the
 6     multicultural population across the country and the
 7     emergence of new ethnocultural communities mitigate
 8     against equitable and accessible broadcasting services. 
 9     Even though a significant portion of the population are
10     located in major cities, the need is even more acute in
11     the small and remote communities where there is neither
12     the concentration or the resources to address market
13     concerns.
14  1322                 While these gaps can perhaps be
15     filled by other services, this would inequitably
16     exclude this programming from the mainstream broadcast
17     services and there are costs that the audience would
18     incur associated with most of those alternatives. 
19     Those are both barriers to access.
20  1323                 It seems to me that there are two
21     possible approaches to this concern.  One approach is
22     to mandate that all broadcast services carry a minimum
23     amount of multilingual and multicultural programming. 
24     Alternatively, a network of stations, whose reach would
25     include towns, villages and rural Canada, could be


 1     developed to provide multilingual and multicultural
 2     programming across Canada.  The first approach would
 3     result in broad, but relatively superficial coverage
 4     and would not be supportive of the development of
 5     superior and professional capabilities.  It would have
 6     the advantage of representation within the mainstream
 7     system, of the diversity of the Canadian population.
 8  1324                 The alternative of a network would
 9     provide the depth to provide exceptional programs,
10     sharing of resources, intercultural co-operation and so
11     forth.  Its disadvantage is that it may not be watched
12     by others.
13  1325                 In a previous Public Notice this
14     year, Additional National Television networks - a
15     Report to the the CRTC deferred
16     consideration of a national multilingual television
17     network pending the results of this particular policy
18     review.
19  1326                 We believe that the needs of the
20     multilingual and multicultural communities can best be
21     met with the establishment of a national television
22     network, responsive to this audience.
23  1327                 The CRTC has requested comments on
24     several programming areas.  We believe that priority
25     should be given to the Canadian experience --


 1     programming areas b), c), d) and e.  Those are the
 2     programming areas identified in section 29 of the
 3     Public notice as distinct from the category Types A to
 4     E are the ones that we are referring to that should
 5     have priority. Programming area e), while important,
 6     should not have the same priority.
 7  1328                 We believe that another priority
 8     programming area, not included, should be the fostering
 9     of a Canadian variant of the native cultures.  Culture
10     is not static.  Both in Canada and in the homeland,
11     culture continues to evolve, frequently in different
12     directions.  The experience of the people of Quebec and
13     of the Acadians are examples of communities that have
14     developed differently from their origins and from each
15     other.  The broadcasting system should provide access
16     to this type of expression.
17  1329                 Programming area c) should also
18     promote -- which would promote cross-cultural
19     understanding.  This is important since many immigrants
20     and refugees come to Canada from areas of conflict. 
21     Additionally, the programming should foster
22     inter-cultural co-operation.  Many groups share common
23     values and traditions.  By working together small
24     communities may, collectively, have the resources and
25     the audience to meet their combined needs.


 1  1330                 With respect to the program types in
 2     the current policy, we believe that a modest credit
 3     should be given to multilingual/multicultural stations
 4     to encourage their production of this type of
 5     programming -- in terms of Type E programming I mean
 6     here.  The credit should be structured so that it does
 7     not significantly impact the station's commitments with
 8     respect to Types A to D.
 9  1331                 In addition, we believe that all
10     other radio and television stations have a
11     responsibility to provide programming in one of the
12     official languages depicting Canada's cultural, racial
13     and religious diversity through services that are
14     multicultural, educational, informational,
15     cross-cultural and inter-cultural in nature.  We
16     believe that these stations should also be required to
17     carry some Type E programming.
18  1332                 In the existing CRTC policy it is
19     acknowledged the substantial representations made
20     regarding balance, fair portrayal and stereotyping.  We
21     concur that it would be onerous to expect the CRTC to
22     closely monitor all on-air programming.  However, the
23     reliance of the Commission on complaints from the
24     public is unacceptable, since it is reactive and there
25     is no way to redress the damage done by unacceptable


 1     programs.  All of the remedies suggested by the CRTC in
 2     the current policy respond to complaints and do not
 3     seek to proactively address the problem.
 4  1333                 Previous submissions, as noted in the
 5     1985 policy, recommended the establishment of a CRTC
 6     Consultative Committee and a National Advisory
 7     Committee.  We are not aware, but do not believe that
 8     these committees have been established and, if so, we
 9     wonder about their effectiveness.
10  1334                 As described in Public Notice CRTC
11     1985-139, the suggested mandate of the National
12     Advisory Committee is described and I will just skip
13     that since you have that on record.
14  1335                 In addition to the objectives that
15     are listed, we believe that there is also an
16     opportunity for both broadcasters and the multicultural
17     community to educate each other through working
18     together on these committees.  We consequently support
19     the creation of a National Advisory Committee.
20  1336                 The Public notice alludes to the
21     subsidization of multilingual programming by mainstream
22     programming.  We do not understand why this would be
23     surprising.  Canada has evolved a complex system of
24     subsidies to support all manner of programs.  Canada's
25     equalization payments, for example, allow the federal


 1     government to ensure an equitable distribution of
 2     resources across the provinces.  Our social services
 3     sector is also an example of how these resources have
 4     subsidized those who use the resources of those who
 5     have by subsidizing those who do not.
 6  1337                 In fact, it is doubtful that many of
 7     our mainstream cultural industries could prosper
 8     without external support.  If market forces were
 9     allowed to determine the direction of our cultural
10     development in the increasingly global world we would
11     all become American.
12  1338                 The current debate about split-run
13     magazines and cultural protection in trade matters
14     illustrates Canada's commitment to cultural sovereignty
15     and the need to take measures to ensure the continuing
16     growth of our cultural industry.  This includes
17     multilingual and multicultural components of our
18     society.
19  1339                 The CRTC should ensure that
20     appropriate mechanisms are available to ensure that
21     financial resources are available to foster the
22     development of programming reflective of Canada's
23     reality.  This cannot be left to market forces.
24  1340                 Thank you.
25  1341                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very


 1     much, Mr. Hassan.
 2  1342                 MS RHÉAUME:  The next presentation
 3     will be by Ms Claudia Lopez.
 5  1343                 MS LOPEZ:  Good evening everyone.  My
 6     name is Claudia Lopez.  I am here to support the
 7     assistance, permanence and promotion of third language
 8     and ethnic programming and, more specifically, of
 9     Telelatino Network.
10  1344                 I am a psychotherapist at the Barbra
11     Schlifer Clinic, which is a non-profit government
12     organization that provides free legal counselling and
13     cultural interpretation services to female survivors of
14     child sexual abuse, incest, sexual assault and spousal
15     or partner abuse.
16  1345                 On many occasions and for at least
17     three years I have been invited to Telelatino to
18     educate, inform, provide resources and support to the
19     Latin American community across Canada on issue of
20     sexual abuse, incest, partner abuse and violence in
21     general.  For the purpose of this consultation I would
22     like to highlight some of the important advantages that
23     I think are in having the Telelatino Network services
24     offered to the Spanish-speaking community.
25  1346                 The first and, in my view, the most


 1     important advantage is that through its programs the
 2     Telelatino Network actively participates and engages
 3     int he prevention, education and elimination of child
 4     sexual abuse, incest and physical abuse of women,
 5     children, the elderly in the Latin community and in
 6     Canadian society at large.
 7  1347                 The second advantage is that through
 8     its programs Telelatino helps the Spanish-speaking
 9     community to connect and become less isolated.  In
10     other words, Telelatino contributes to the development
11     of community participation and integration.
12  1348                 Another advantage is that many people
13     who are being abused in Canada are isolated because
14     Spanish is the first and only language of
15     communication.  Their families, community and support
16     systems are outside Canada and in some cases they live
17     in very isolated geographical areas here in Canada. 
18     These people, unfortunately, as not only being abused,
19     but have no access to the legal, financial,
20     psychological and community resources that the Canadian
21     government provides to help women, children and ethnic
22     groups like the Latin community to be free from abuse.
23  1349                 Telelatino Network has been and is an
24     excellent agent of change because it has been
25     educating, informing, supporting and providing remedies


 1     to the Latin American community on issues of abuse.
 2  1350                 Another advantage I believe is that
 3     the issues, responses and alternatives that are offered
 4     in relation to the problems of abuse help these people
 5     who see the programs to identify their own issues and
 6     to apply similar strategies and solutions by analogy.
 7  1351                 The last advantage that I want to
 8     highlight relates to the saving of financial, physical
 9     and human resources to the taxpayers of Canada.  Child
10     sexual abuse, incest, sexual assault and spousal abuse
11     are all social problems that require our urgent
12     attention.
13  1352                 The statistics indicate that a price
14     to taxpayers of providing treatment, legal and recovery
15     alternatives to one child sexual abuse survivor is of
16     $200,000.
17  1353                 As Telelatino deals with prevention
18     and elimination of abuse, it also helps our community
19     to deal with financial problems, like drug addiction,
20     alcoholism, prostitution and crime to name some of the
21     consequences of abuse, but also it is important because
22     it helps Canadian taxpayers to save a lot of money,
23     time and resources by dealing with issues that create
24     great social disruption as is the case of violence and
25     abuse.


 1  1354                 Thank you very much, Madam Chairman,
 2     for allowing me to support the Telelatino Network and
 3     the promotion of third language and ethnic programming
 4     on behalf of the Barbra Schlifer Clinic and the Latin
 5     community.
 6  1355                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 7     much, Ms Lopez.
 8  1356                 MS RHÉAUME:  Our next speaker will be
 9     Mr. Kiumars Rezvanifar of KVC Communications Group.
11  1357                 MR. REZVANIFAR:  Good evening.
12  1358                 My name is Kiumars Rezvanifar.  I
13     have been an independent producer for two weekly
14     television programs for the iranian community in
15     Ontario for the past seven years.  i would like to give
16     you a very brief background about the community for
17     which I serve.
18  1359                 The nearly 100,000 members of the
19     Iranian community in Ontario have arrived in Canada
20     shortly after the political turmoil and the Islamic
21     revolution of 1979, exactly 20 years ago.  It was the
22     first major immigration in the Iranian's 2,500 years of
23     history.  Unlike most immigration that is caused by
24     economical reasons, oppression and political changes
25     and its effect on the Iranian society sparked the


 1     Iranian immigration.  Thus, the educated and
 2     "well-to-do" class of people left Iran destined to go
 3     to Europe and North America.
 4  1360                 Internationally, because of the
 5     American melting pot policy and Canada's policy of
 6     multiculturalism, many immigrants chose Canada over the
 7     United States and even over European counties.  The
 8     United Nations selection of Canada as, "The Best
 9     Country to Live In," has also increased Canada's
10     popularity among immigrants.
11  1361                 As we know, one of the main reasons
12     for this selection by the UN has been the multicultural
13     acceptance of the Canadian society and the respect that
14     Canada offers to the immigrants' cultural heritage, a
15     treatment that you cannot find in any part of the
16     world.  The multicultural aspect of Canada has been
17     growing rapidly, and with it brings challenges and
18     opportunities which requires special attention and
19     consideration.
20  1362                 As the immigrants arrive and settle
21     in Canada, many face problems and conflicts within the
22     new society, and if ignored it could lead to serious
23     problems.  To address and solve these problems, Canada
24     requires a strong means of communication.  The most
25     important part of this communication is language.  In


 1     many communities, the two official languages of English
 2     and French have proven to be inappropriate due to the
 3     fact most of these immigrants speak neither of the two
 4     languages.  This is a situation where a comfort
 5     language is essential to reach into these communities,
 6     a language that they are familiar with and in which
 7     they trust.
 8  1363                 The Iranian community's population in
 9     Ontario has grown from 30,000 in 1990 to around 100,000
10     at the present time.  The fact is this number is
11     growing rapidly by the arrival of every immigrant each
12     day.
13  1364                 The two television programs that I
14     produce provide our community and our viewers with
15     entertainment and educational segments about Iran's
16     history and culture.  But our main objectives are to
17     inform them about the Canadian society, history,
18     geography, lifestyle, the political system and its
19     issues.
20  1365                 Through Farsi television programming
21     we encourage our viewers to think of themselves as
22     Canadians and promote them to participate in society
23     and contribute to Canada.
24  1366                 Along with segments in Farsi about
25     the Canadian political system, we have invited many


 1     Members of Parliament to our programs and who have
 2     spoken about Canada and we have invited our viewers to
 3     participate in the political system.  I am pleased to
 4     announce that at the present time we have two Iranian
 5     candidates in the upcoming election.
 6  1367                 Not only does Farsi television
 7     programming inform the viewers about the Canadian
 8     election system, tax programs, history and education,
 9     it also exposes them to many opportunities provided by
10     the Canadian government.  These opportunities could
11     easily integrate them into the Canadian society and
12     help them to become an active part of it.
13  1368                 Through our Farsi language television
14     programming we have achieved many of these objectives
15     that we could not achieve using the English language.
16  1369                 Two years ago, by the invitation of
17     the Canadian Soccer Federation, the Iranian national
18     soccer team came to Canada for a friendly match in
19     Toronto.  It was a day that will remain in our hearts
20     and minds for a long time.  During a two-month campaign
21     on our television programs on CFMT and CHEX we promoted
22     the Canadian values in our community and within
23     ourselves in such a way that the respect and admiration
24     towards the Canadian soccer team even surprised the
25     Canadian soccer players and the authorities.  Many of


 1     the Iranian spectators were waving both the Iranian and
 2     Canadian flags.  The positive impact and warm reception
 3     that was felt by the Canadian soccer team reflect the
 4     major role our television programs on CFMT played
 5     before the match.
 6  1370                 Through this multicultural television
 7     system of programming, each community gets to know each
 8     other and understand and respect each other's customs
 9     and way of life and culture.  This is an extremely
10     important aspect in a multicultural society.  Our Farsi
11     television programs are not limited to the Iranian
12     audience, but viewers from the Greek, Italian, Indian
13     Afghani and Arabic communities have also shown interest
14     in parts of our programming.  We also have their
15     advertising in our programs as well.
16  1371                 The global, political and economic
17     conflicts and changes have made Canada to be home to
18     many ethnic communities.  These communities were not in
19     existence in Canada in the 1980s.
20  1372                 The flood of refugees and immigrants
21     to Canada indicates that Canada is and will be an ideal
22     destination for immigration.  The change in the
23     immigration laws and policies could only slow the
24     process and numbers, but could not stop the arrival of
25     new immigrants each day.


 1  1373                 Canada has to be ready to help
 2     newcomers adopt easily and quickly.  Multicultural
 3     television programming has proven to be one of the
 4     effective and key instruments in this process.  As the
 5     multicultural aspect of Canada grows, Canada should
 6     increase and expand the role and operation of its
 7     multicultural television programming.
 8  1374                 Multicultural television programming
 9     has come a long way from being a part of a community or
10     access channel to its present status of being an
11     independent program on major television stations such
12     as CFMT in Toronto.
13  1375                 We need to look forward into the near
14     future and try to view multicultural television
15     programming at the network level, where it could reach
16     and be effective to everyone and everywhere across
17     Canada.  In a multicultural society, obviously English
18     and French are not the only means of effective
19     communication.
20  1376                 Thank you.
21  1377                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
22     much, Mr. Rezvanifar.
23  1378                 MS RHÉAUME:  Our next presenter is Ms
24     Zelda Young.


 1  1379                 MS YOUNG:  Thank you very much. 
 2     Thank you for the opportunity of addressing the CRTC
 3     Commissioners and Commission.
 4  1380                 My name is Zelda Young.  I am a
 5     Canadian-born Jew, producer and host of Shalom Jewish
 6     programs on CHIN-AM and FM radio for the past 22 years
 7     and also for seven years a part of the CHIN television
 8     family on CityTV as producer and host of a Canadian
 9     Jewish talk program called Tapestry.
10  1381                 My late father, Sam Yochun, (ph) met
11     Johnny Lombardi in the 1950s at then CKFH, which was
12     Foster Hewitt's sports station.  My father's English
13     was not at its best and he was made fun of by many
14     other Canadian radio producers of non-ethnic
15     backgrounds.  He didn't seem to mind though.  He was
16     fiercely proud to be doing what he loved producing, the
17     unheard of at that time, a Canadian Jewish program.
18  1382                 That's where Johnny Lombardi and my
19     dad's paths crossed.  They both had major dreams of one
20     day having a multicultural radio station.
21  1383                 After several years of being not only
22     at CKFH, but at other radio stations that allowed them
23     the opportunity for several years to have the show on,
24     they would say, "We no longer want the program," and on
25     my dad would go to the next radio station.


 1  1384                 Anyway, with Johnny Lombardi's
 2     perseverance and hard work, in 1966 CHIN RADIO was
 3     born.  My dad was the very first producer onboard.  I
 4     remember because I grew up with the Lombardi family
 5     basically.
 6  1385                 It was difficult, to say the least,
 7     to get Canadian Jews to get involved in their heritage. 
 8     They felt that they must support Israel, both through
 9     funding and in other ways.  But my dad worked very hard
10     and he changed the perceptions of Canadian Jews that we
11     must have a voice as well in Canadian multicultural
12     radio through CHIN RADIO.
13  1386                 In 1976 I joined the ranks of
14     producers on CHIN and, unfortunately, in 1979 my dad
15     passed away.
16  1387                 It was really a struggle to get
17     advertisers and Canadian Jewish organizations to share
18     their awareness with our community, but we did it and
19     now every major Jewish organization and group shares
20     their news, views and other things with the community
21     on our Jewish programs on CHIN AM and FM and I have
22     submitted many letters of their support.
23  1388                 I am very proud to be a part of the
24     CHIN family of broadcasters and have the chance to
25     share my community's wealth of knowledge and expertise


 1     with people of all ethnic and Canadian backgrounds.
 2  1389                 Johnny Lombardi has been both a
 3     mentor and a friend to me and has encouraged me every
 4     step of my journey.  I thank you, the CRTC and CHIN
 5     RADIO, for affording the multicultural community
 6     opportunity to build this wonderful Canadian mosaic
 7     which helps make it a more diverse society and a vital
 8     link to the global community in the next millennium.
 9  1390                 Thank you very much.
10  1391                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
11     much, Ms Young.
12  1392                 MS RHÉAUME:  Our next speaker is Mr.
13     Frank Alvarez, President of CIRV Radio.
15  1393                 MR. ALVAREZ:  Good evening, Madam
16     Chairperson, members of the Commission and Commission
17     and staff.
18  1394                 My name is Frank Alvarez.  I am the
19     president of CIRV Radio International.  I am here today
20     speaking as President of CIRV-FM and also on behalf of
21     the different language produces of CIRV.
22  1395                 CIRV-FM is an ethnic stations
23     broadcasting here in Toronto.  From our modest
24     beginnings as a low-power station licensed by this
25     Commission in 1986, we have grown to become a major


 1     provider of ethnic programming to the residents of the
 2     Greater Toronto C.M.A.  Despite our power limitations,
 3     we currently broadcast at 1,000 watts, we serve 12
 4     different language groups from Whitby in the east to
 5     Aurora in the north to Burlington in the west.
 6  1396                 In a way, our station is a result of
 7     the Commission's 1985 ethnic broadcasting policy as we
 8     were licensed the year after its publication.  We feel
 9     that the policy has served the ethnic communities,
10     particularly in large markets very well, and we are
11     here today to do several things.
12  1397                 We would like to give you a brief
13     synopsis of the changes we have witnessed in the
14     communities we serve.
15  1398                 We would also like to suggest the
16     areas of your policy that need to be updated to reflect
17     these changes.
18  1399                 We would like and would be pleased to
19     reply to any questions you might have about the
20     operations of an ethnic broadcasting radio station or
21     any other matters that you feel relevant, and we wanted
22     to hear what the stakeholders who were present here
23     today and yesterday had to say so that we could build
24     upon your consultations in preparing our written brief
25     for March 4.


 1  1400                 Bur first let me note the successes
 2     of the policy and the principles that we feel your
 3     decision resulting from this process should be based
 4     on.  Your policy has resulted in an explosion of ethnic
 5     stations in this city.  We now have six full time radio
 6     stations whose signals are receivable in the GTA. 
 7     Between us, we serve over 50 groups in over 50
 8     languages with the largest groups, such as italians,
 9     Portuguese, Chinese and the South Asian communities
10     receiving over 100 hours of radio programming per week.
11  1401                 At the same time, much smaller sized
12     linguistic and cultural communities such as the
13     Filipinos, the Japanese, Malays, Slovenians,
14     Bulgarians, Lithuanians, Thais, Arabs, Iranians and
15     other groups whose size would not be able to support a
16     stand alone station, or who could not afford to
17     purchase time on conventional stations receiving from a
18     half hour to several hours of programming per week. 
19     And, of course, there are a great number of groups
20     receiving somewhere between these figures.
21  1402                 Furthermore, there are a number of
22     SCMO services providing 24 hours a day services to
23     specific single language communities.
24  1403                 In television, we have an ethnic
25     television station here in Toronto providing services


 1     to third-language communities here, as well as
 2     elsewhere in Ontario.  We have specialty services that
 3     provide programs in Italian, Spanish, Chinese and South
 4     Asian languages and a licensed service, not yet
 5     launched, which will provide Greek-language programs.
 6  1404                 It is important for the Commission to
 7     understand the real need for access through the cable
 8     companies for new ethnic TV services.
 9  1405                 What good is it to be issued a
10     licence whether to a Greek or portuguese broadcaster,
11     if we have no means of delivering that mandate?
12  1406                 We firmly believe that the key answer
13     is cable access.
14  1407                 We also support that Canadians should
15     have the first opportunity to apply for new unilingual
16     TV ethnic services.  As well, an opportunity should be
17     given to foreign television services, but only with
18     Canadian partners.
19  1408                 A number of us also provide a few
20     hours a week of programming to mainstream television
21     stations.  This proliferation of services happened for
22     two reasons -- the dynamism of the producers and
23     broadcasters who wish to serve their communities and
24     the friendly policy and licensing framework put in
25     place by the Commission.


 1  1409                 In terms of radio, the combination of
 2     limiting entry to what the market can support while
 3     insisting on a minimum contribution from each ethnic
 4     broadcaster has meant that we can afford to extend
 5     service to the communities that are not yet big enough
 6     or economically well enough established to be able to
 7     support programming.  At the same time, you have not
 8     limited access to program sources unreasonably.
 9  1410                 This has also meant that we can
10     provide local programming of relevance to people living
11     here in Toronto, as well as more general sports, music
12     and information programming.
13  1411                 We believe that the fundamental
14     principles underpinning your regulation of our industry
15     should remain:
16  1412                 Definition of what an ethnic program
17     and station are;
18  1413                 Requirement for minimum levels of
19     service from ethnic broadcasters;
20  1414                 Limits on how much ethnic programming
21     mainstream broadcasters can provide in markets;
22  1415                 Giving a first chance to Canadian
23     entrepreneurs to provide services of relevance to
24     Canadians of non-English, non-French and non-aboriginal
25     origin.


 1  1416                 The changing face of ethnic Toronto. 
 2     My comments are not based on an analysis of Stats
 3     Canada data, but rather on our day-to-day personal
 4     experience in serving the ethnic communities of the
 5     Toronto area.  The ethnic communities have changed
 6     dramatically since the Commission introduce its policy
 7     in 1985.  These changes have taken a number of forms:
 8  1417                 The numbers, as the Commission notes
 9     in its Public Notice, one in three Torontonians speak a
10     language other than English or French at home.
11  1418                 The changing source of immigration,
12     fewer and fewer of the new immigrants coming to Canada
13     are from what were the traditional countries of origin
14     in Europe, and many more are coming from Africa, Asia
15     South and Central America and the Caribbean.  These
16     communities are arriving in large numbers and many of
17     them are seeking service in their languages.  In
18     addition, many of them have distinctive cultures, but
19     speak English as a first language.
20  1419                 What were originally outsider
21     communities are now mainstream, the Italian,
22     Portuguese, Chinese and other immigrant communities are
23     now mainstream, with Cabinet Ministers, leaders of
24     commerce, arts, sports and other fields of endeavour
25     coming from these groups.  Many of these communities


 1     are now in their third and fourth generations in
 2     Canada.  Their needs are significantly different than
 3     those of their grandparents and parents.  While many
 4     listen and watch mainstream radio and television
 5     exclusively, they also want to maintain contact with
 6     their roots.
 7  1420                 Ethnic groups are moving to the
 8     suburbs, while the original patterns of immigration saw
 9     new Canadians congregate in the downtown areas and
10     create the Little Polands in the Roncesvales area,
11     Little Italy on College Street and St. Clair and
12     Chinatown on Dundas Street.
13  1421                 As these groups have become
14     established, they have moved to suburbs, such as
15     Woodbridge, Richmond hill, Markham, Mississauga and
16     Malton.  In many cases, they do not receive our signal
17     as well as they were accustomed to when they lived in
18     downtown Toronto.
19  1422                 With the establishment of significant
20     populations of ethnic groups have followed the
21     businesses and the arts, I doubt if there are many, if
22     any, cuisines from around the world that cannot be
23     found somewhere in a Toronto restaurant.  And the
24     groups have brought their music, dance and other
25     cultural pursuits here.


 1  1423                 We have a number of excellent singers
 2     and musicians that we recorded here at CIRV.  This is
 3     the latest edition, and there are a few small ethnic
 4     recording companies and distributors.  But they remain
 5     at a local level and the quality of production is
 6     uneven.  In addition, many of the recordings by
 7     Canadians of ethnic origin do not meet the MAPL
 8     criteria and may need to be revised.
 9  1424                 We also believe that a catalogue with
10     Canadian recordings made by the ethnic communities
11     should be circulated among the different ethnic
12     broadcasters among the different markets.
13  1425                 Implications for the ethnic policy. 
14     These changes have resulted in a much more diverse
15     grouping of ethnic communities, with not only
16     differences of ethnic origin between communities, but
17     generational, gender and many other differences within
18     the communities.  There are a variety of needs to be
19     served out there that we think will require changes in
20     the Commission's ethnic policy.
21  1426                 Requirements for an ethnic station in
22     the larger urban communities:  There are a number of
23     things that should be explored here.
24  1427                 If a radio station is going to
25     benefit from the market protection afforded an ethnic


 1     station on format, should it not do more than 60 per
 2     cent ethnic programming, at least in a major market
 3     like Toronto?  In practice, we believe that Toronto
 4     ethnic stations -- Toronto area ethnic stations are
 5     over 90 per cent ethnic programs.
 6  1428                 It is not clear what purpose the
 7     stations that program between 15 per cent and 40 per
 8     cent serve, nor is it clear why mainstream radio
 9     stations in these markets should be able to do 15 per
10     cent ethnic programming.
11  1429                 At the same time, to ensure that
12     smaller groups receive a minimal level of service, we
13     need to consider what the minimum number of groups that
14     an ethnic radio station should serve should be.
15  1430                 Conversely, should we not drop
16     minimum requirements for Types A and B programs/  More
17     and more, we feel that bilingual programming mixed with
18     English aimed at the specific needs of a community can
19     serve the needs of our communities in two ways:  It can
20     serve the younger generations who are still interested
21     in their roots, but whose mastery of the language is
22     less, and it can serve those with poor English to
23     develop their language skills.
24  1431                 At the same time, we need new and
25     innovative ways to reach the communities that have


 1     migrated out to the suburbs and those in smaller
 2     centres.
 3  1432                 Perhaps we should revisit the limit
 4     of 15 per cent ethnic programs in these communities. 
 5     It is difficult to see what purpose is served by
 6     requiring applications for going beyond 15 per cent. 
 7     On the other hand, perhaps higher thresholds level
 8     after which requirements to serve multiple communities
 9     could be considered.
10  1433                 We may want to consider
11     re-broadcasters and partial re-broadcasters to reach
12     out to some of those communities.  Once digital radio
13     arrives, single frequency network might be a way to do
14     this.
15  1434                 We may wish to consider a
16     redefinition of Canadian content for purposes of ethnic
17     music recordings, as well as means to give some
18     recognition for the many local programs we do as
19     Canadian content.  Of course, that we base this need on
20     our own experience as a broadcaster in the Toronto
21     area, we cannot speak about the needs of the ethnic
22     stations elsewhere, namely in Vancouver, Montreal,
23     Edmonton or Winnipeg.
24  1435                 A redefinition of Canadian content
25     would consequently result in the increase of Canadian


 1     content, at which time we would urge the Commission to
 2     phase in such an increase.
 3  1436                 We do not intend to make specific
 4     recommendations at this time, but rather indicate some
 5     general areas of concern and where we might be able to
 6     improve the services made available to the communities
 7     that we serve.  We intend to work with the Canadian
 8     Association of Ethnic Broadcasters to develop a written
 9     brief that we will file with you on March 4.
10  1437                 Thank you for the opportunity to meet
11     with you today.  I would be more than pleased to answer
12     any questions that you may wish to pose.  Thank you
13     very much.
14  1438                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
15     much, Mr. Alvarez.  You will forgive us if we don't ask
16     any questions, but we still have six parties to go.
17  1439                 MR. ALVAREZ:  Thank you so much.
18  1440                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
19  1441                 MS RHÉAUME:  The next presenter is
20     Mr. Farook Hossain Kahn.
22  1442                 MR. KAHN:  Good evening,
23     Commissioners, ladies and gentlemen.
24  1443                 Thank you very much for giving me the
25     opportunity to express our views regarding the third


 1     language and community programming on TV media.
 2  1444                 My name is Farook Hossain Kahn.  I am
 3     the president of the Bangladesh Awami League of Canada
 4     and Director of the Canada Bangladesh Chamber of
 5     Commerce.  Both the organizations are working actively
 6     with the Bangladeshi communities and the other South
 7     Asian communities to improve the cultural heritage and
 8     economic growth.
 9  1445                 I am also the past Director and
10     Treasurer of the Coalition of Agencies Serving South
11     Asians, which represents more than 60 communities in
12     the Greater Toronto Area.
13  1446                 I have directed and produced a few
14     Bengali community programs on the then Maclean Hunter
15     Cable TV and on the Rogers Community 10.
16  1447                 We are very, very glad that Canada
17     has a framework to protect its culture.  We are also
18     very glad that Canada has developed and articulated a
19     multicultural policy.  Multiple cultures are part of
20     the Canadian culture.  Multiculture programming and
21     broadcasting needs to be cherished, protected and
22     nurtured.
23  1448                 We believe that the regulatory
24     environment and the multicultural broadcasting policy
25     continue to protect the local ethnic multilingual


 1     national broadcasters such as ATN, the Asian Television
 2     Network.  ATN has to thrive and ATN has to reflect the
 3     local communities such as ours in its programming.  We
 4     see local artists, local talents and local
 5     entertainment industry emerging in the multicultural
 6     context with and through ATN.
 7  1449                 Canadian content is as important
 8     within the multicultural context as it is in the
 9     mainstream context.  This mean that no licences be
10     granted where ethnic programming does not reflect local
11     Canadian ethic communities where Canadian artists,
12     actors, technicians, are not part of such productions.
13  1450                 It is very important to have a media
14     like the Asian Television network for the South Asian
15     communities and our heartiest thanks to the CRTC for
16     granting a licence to ATN to broadcast the ethnic
17     programs which is helping us to keep and promote our
18     own culture identity in this multicultural society.
19  1451                 Asian Television network is the only
20     channel in Canada which is bridging our cultural gap. 
21     Since the South Asian community is the second largest
22     ethnic group in Greater Toronto after the Chines, the
23     ATN has become a very popular channel among the South
24     Asian communities.  Though the countries in South Asia,
25     such as Bangladesh, india, pakistan and Sri Lanka have


 1     different languages, but most of the population either
 2     speaks or understands the Hindi, Urdu and Bengali
 3     languages.  As a result, the people in our South Asian
 4     communities in Canada are equally enjoying the programs
 5     aired by the ATN.
 6  1452                 On the occasion of Bangladeshi
 7     Victory Day we have produced a two and a half hour
 8     Bengali program on our language and culture with the
 9     help and broadcasted by Asian Television network, which
10     was viewed and enjoyed by a large number of
11     Bangladeshis living in Canada.  At present we are
12     working on two more projects with ATN.  We have a lot
13     of talented people in our community who can create
14     community programs based on our culture and religion. 
15     I believe it will lessen our dependability on foreign
16     films and other programs.  Moreover, it will create
17     more jobs in the country and we will be able to build
18     our own cultural and religious foundation for our
19     future generations.
20  1453                 We are urging the CRTC that full
21     access should be available to multicultural programming
22     for the third languages.  It is our case that this
23     means full access to Asian Television network on cable
24     and other distribution forms in a meaningful way.  At
25     this time our community does not grudge the $15


 1     subscription fee.  It does, however, object to having
 2     to invest $700 in a satellite or to pay an additional
 3     $10 per month for a digital box.  It is especially hard
 4     for low-income people and seniors in our Bangladeshi
 5     community -- the people who need ATN most.
 6  1454                 Moreover, due to the extra cost
 7     involved with ATN, not only the viewers are restricted,
 8     but the advertisers also do not advertise to the tune
 9     and scale that would normally attract millions of
10     viewers throughout Canada.
11  1455                 If the third-language channel like
12     ATN channel is accessible from coast to coast, I
13     strongly believe that it will tremendously improve the
14     cultural sensitivity and will bridge the cultural gap. 
15     Religious and cultural upbringing starts early in life. 
16     Most Asian women being homemakers constitute a very
17     large potential viewer for ATN, which is now being
18     constrained due to the extra cost.
19  1456                 Most importantly, our Bangladeshi
20     children are also deprived from the opportunity to
21     entrenching our cultural and religious roots into their
22     minds.
23  1457                 Thank you again for giving me the
24     opportunity.
25  1458                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you so much


 1     for hanging in there and presenting your views to us at
 2     this late hour.
 3  1459                 MR. KAHN:  Thank you.
 4  1460                 MS RHÉAUME:  Our next presenter is Ms
 5     Betty Skoutakis.  Betty Skoutakis.
 6  1461                 Then we will go to Ms Estela Cuenca.
 8  1462                 MS CUENCA:  Good evening.
 9  1463                 My name is Estela Cuenca.  My field
10     is education.  I work as a program co-ordinator of
11     volunteers who work with children and youth promoting
12     academic excellence among Hispanic youth.  I also work
13     in a music program fostering the love of music in
14     children and youth.
15  1464                 I am a member of the board of
16     directors of Open Experience Theatre, an organization
17     founded in 1979 which has presented numerous
18     award-winning productions, both for the theatre and
19     television and has been a catalyst within the Hispanic
20     community for the production of many festivals,
21     artistic exhibitions and more.
22  1465                 I am here perhaps not as prepared as
23     I would to be because I found out very late about these
24     consultations, and although I knew that I might not
25     have enough time to prepare myself, I felt that it was


 1     important that our voices be heard.  So I met with a
 2     group of people who have serious concerns about
 3     Canadian broadcasting and the lack of a true reflection
 4     of our multicultural and multilingual reality in what
 5     is broadcast on Canadian radio and television.
 6  1466                 We know that there are a lot of
 7     technical considerations, and that we are not experts
 8     in all the legislation that exists.  But we do know
 9     that, in spite of all the well intended legislation,
10     and the many policies which are written for the various
11     departments and agencies.  The bottom line is that we,
12     the ethnics, as we are called, contribute our fair
13     share to the economy, the development and the
14     well-being of this country, yet we are blatantly
15     non-existent when it comes to the reflection of
16     Canadian society in the radio, television and new media
17     which is seen at home and abroad.  And this is not
18     right.
19  1467                 The following are some of the issues
20     which came up in our discussions and which we submit
21     for your consideration.
22  1468                 Multiculturalism is the reality of
23     Canada.  Multiculturalism is not silent.  We
24     communicate with one another in our original languages,
25     but also in the official languages.  Unfortunately,


 1     Canada's Official Languages Act has been used to
 2     perpetuate discrimination and favouritism.  This is
 3     unfair and must be rectified.
 4  1469                 A national multilingual network to be
 5     broadcast on basic cable, so that the ethnics don't
 6     have to pay extra for service in their language, is
 7     more than due and necessary.
 8  1470                 Since third-language productions are
 9     not only essential to the expression and communication
10     of our multicultural society, but can also be exported
11     to larger international markets, we would like to see
12     support given to the productions which could be done in
13     third languages.  These would not only serve and
14     reflect the communities for which are made, but can
15     then be exported to larger markets.  We could and
16     should try to get support from the Department of
17     Industry, Trade and Commerce.
18  1471                 Also, in order to comply with the
19     Official Languages Act, versioning could be done to
20     English and/or French.
21  1472                 The Canadian Broadcasting Corporation
22     Act and the CRTC's policy on the CBC should be amended
23     to ensure that Canada's diversity, including our
24     multicultural, multiracial and multilingual reality are
25     fairly and equitably reflected in our programming. 


 1     After all, it is our public broadcasting service paid
 2     by all and not only anglo/franco Canadians.
 3  1473                 The future digital compression
 4     channel will open doors for more channels.  We should
 5     prepare ourselves to deal with this.  By ensuring that
 6     Canadian content, especially that produced in third
 7     languages are so appealing as to retain the viewership
 8     and consumption of Canadians and internationals.
 9  1474                 Canadian-made productions and
10     Canadian broadcasting are vital to our culture,
11     industry and sovereignty and must take precedence over
12     imported or foreign productions and broadcasting.
13  1475                 New media is also a very important
14     consideration.  Soon, although many are doing it now,
15     who are not satisfied with information and programming
16     in their own languages are turning to the Internet for
17     information and entertainment.  As Canadians we must be
18     in the avant guard to provide the necessary services
19     and even better to export high-quality information and
20     programming.  However, access is the domain of the
21     wealthier segments of Canada and assistance must be
22     provided so that the new media is accessible to all.
23  1476                 There is very serious concern that
24     the CRTC has allowed the market to dictate what happens
25     in the broadcasting industry.  The weaker and


 1     under-represented communities will be further
 2     debilitated unless mechanisms are established to ensure
 3     that access and opportunities are available for all.
 4  1477                 Also, it is very important that
 5     productions not only reflect the ethnic communities as
 6     ghettos and/or stories of the past.  They be fresh,
 7     current and vibrant, with stories of what is happening
 8     today, promoting cross-cultural understanding.
 9  1478                 It is fundamental that the CRTC
10     comprehends and acts to safeguard, nurture and protect
11     the intrinsic value of all of our various heritage
12     languages as vehicles of cultural identity, retention
13     of family and cultural values, pride in our roots, for
14     the fostering of international relations.  Third
15     language and ethnic broadcasting are necessary to
16     Canada as a nation.
17  1479                 I will be remiss not to express our
18     apprehension for the Commission's lack of understanding
19     of the importance of third language and ethnic
20     broadcasting as it was demonstrated by the short and
21     poor notification of these consultations and the short
22     time allotted for the presentations.
23  1480                 It is important that the
24     Commissioners of the CRTC better educate themselves as
25     to the importance and impact of our multicultural,


 1     multiracial, multilingual reality in Canada and act
 2     according.
 3  1481                 It is important that the
 4     Commissioners keep an open perspective and vision which
 5     should help them to distinguish between the needs of
 6     the people of Canada, which are the majority from the
 7     interests of the broadcasters who will be making
 8     polished and well-prepared submissions.  The CRTC must
 9     be always cognizant that its mandate is to serve the
10     people of Canada and not the interest of the few.
11  1482                 All broadcasters, be they public or
12     private, must assume their responsibility for ensuring
13     that Canada's diversity is fairly and equitably
14     reflected in their programming.
15  1483                 The CRTC must require cable companies
16     to provide community programming.  It used to be
17     better, but has been gradually disappearing.
18  1484                 There is a lot of ethnic or
19     third-language programming on mainstream stations
20     through the brokerage.  The CRTC must review where the
21     communities gain or become disempowered by this
22     arrangement.  Who controls the content?  Does the fact
23     that they include foreign materials in a program which
24     is packaged and broadcast in Canada in a third language
25     make it Canadian content?


 1  1485                 The CRTC should establish the proper
 2     mechanisms to ensure that third language and ethnic
 3     productions have fair and equitable access to funding
 4     for the production of programs which tell their
 5     stories, which are also Canadian stories.
 6  1486                 Third language or ethnic productions
 7     which lack proper funding perpetuate the myth that they
 8     are low quality and, therefore, not worth producing.
 9  1487                 Most of the government funding
10     agencies grant funding to productions which care
11     produced in either of the official languages.  This is
12     highly discriminatory and should be changed.  Why
13     should only a fraction of our society receive funding
14     when all taxpayers contribute to the programs.
15  1488                 Certification of Canadian content
16     should be given to productions which accurately reflect
17     Canada's demographic reality and it should be a
18     condition for the granting or renewal of licences of
19     funding.  This would ensure that all productions will
20     take us into consideration and seek our writers,
21     authors, musicians, actors, et cetera.
22  1489                 The CRTC should require cable
23     companies to reactivate community channels across the
24     country and provide access especially to the weaker
25     communities.


 1  1490                 The CRTC should encourage and promote
 2     the portability of programs so that a program which is
 3     produced in a specific city could be shared by also
 4     being broadcast in other cities across Canada.  This
 5     allows for the cost of production to be split between
 6     the different cities that receive the program while
 7     also allowing wider viewership.
 8  1491                 CBC radio has four channels.  They
 9     broadcast only in the official languages.  Is that
10     fair?  Is that representative?  Most ethnic
11     communities, third language, should be given access to
12     these stations.
13  1492                 Canadian content must be expanded to
14     promote intercultural understanding.
15  1493                 The Broadcasting Act has been in
16     place for many years.  For many years it has also made
17     reference to the retention and enhancement of our
18     cultural diversity, but the reality of the
19     implementation has been very poor.  We hope that these
20     consultations are not just another exercise in
21     futility, but that the Commission comes out with an
22     integrational policy which has teeth and which will
23     ensure that the demographic reality of Canada is fairly
24     and equitably reflected in all of our radio, television
25     and new media in Canada.


 1  1494                 In conclusion, I would like to
 2     reinforce that I have the voice of the Hispanic youth,
 3     hoping that the outcome of this event will bring new
 4     opportunities to them promoting in this manner young
 5     writers, young musicians and all Hispanic actors, and
 6     that with Canadians are represented on the basis of
 7     equity and equality.  These positive changes are
 8     required to be seen on television and radio.
 9  1495                 Thank you very much for allowing me
10     to be here tonight.  I am almost the last person. 
11     Good-bye.
12  1496                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Sorry to disappoint
13     you, Ms Cuenca, there are still four more to go.
14  1497                 But thank you for being with us and
15     thank you to you also for staying with us to such a
16     late hour.
17  1498                 Madam Secretary.
18  1499                 MS RHÉAUME:  The next presenters are
19     Mr. Spyros Bourdorkis and Ms Vicky Karpeta.  Mr. Spyros
20     Bourdorkis.
21  1500                 We will then go to Ms Krystyna
22     Piotrowski and Ms Isabella Walicht.
23  1501                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Please push -- oh,
24     not on the record.


 1  1502                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  We want you here
 2     and welcome.  You can begin any time you are ready.  I
 3     am very sorry for all of the confusion.  It was
 4     confusing for us too because the response was so
 5     overwhelming that we ended up having to add first one
 6     day and then a second day.  We were only scheduled to
 7     be here one day.  It's a good sign that there is that
 8     much interest.
 9  1503                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  And like the
10     doors of TVOntario we are voice activated.  As soon as
11     you start we open up and we listen.
12  1504                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Press the white
13     button.
14  1505                 MS PIOTROWSKI:  I will probably
15     start.  My name is Krystyna Piotrowski.  Me and
16     Isabella, we are here on behalf of Polish Radio Program
17     and Teen Radio.  My husband, Jack Piotrowski, he is a
18     producer.  Me and Isabella, we are the hostesses of the
19     program.
20  1506                 So, I would like to give a voice to
21     Isabella because, as you saw, that she is a great
22     speaker.
23  1507                 MS WALICHT:  Not really, but give me
24     the microphone and I stay on it.
25  1508                 Anyway, as Krystyna said, I will be


 1     speaking mainly on behalf of the Polish program
 2     Epichine (ph).  You have heard all the general comments
 3     from almost everybody during the day.  I will
 4     concentrate on the Polish program.
 5  1509                 The Polish program last year
 6     celebrated its tenth anniversary.  The program is
 7     called Radio Polonia.  Now, how qualified are the
 8     producers and how popular was this program?  It is
 9     sufficient to say that the air time has increased from
10     the original half an hour into three hours daily
11     broadcasting from 11:00 a.m. until 2:00 p.m.  You can
12     judge the popularity of the program by the tremendous
13     support among the advertisers and the responses that we
14     get from the listening audience, and the audience
15     represents all age groups.  Also, it is a cross-section
16     of almost all professions and fields of interest.
17  1510                 Last year on April Fool's Day,
18     Krystyna made a joke.  She said that the program of
19     Radio Polonia is going to be limited to only a half an
20     hour daily.  It was meant as an April Fool's joke. 
21     What happened, people took it seriously.  All the lines
22     became instantly busy.  Everybody was calling with
23     people venting frustration and anger on the air and
24     comments ranging from blaming political, economic and
25     anti-Polish sources, to outright donations of cash and


 1     establishing a foundation to keep Radio Polonia on the
 2     air.  Some even suggesting buying CHIN or another
 3     station and broadcasting in Polish 24-hours a day.
 4  1511                 You should have listened to those
 5     people.  They were really serious.  I don't know how
 6     Krystyna felt afterwards when she had to admit that it
 7     was a joke.  However, even after that the people kept
 8     flooding the studio with calls and saying that in the
 9     future it could have happened.  We always have some
10     unforeseen circumstances and a situation like that
11     could really happen in the future.
12  1512                 Now, I do some live interviews,
13     interpretations and comments on the air in Polish and
14     in English as well.  I can testify to the extreme
15     dedication of the producers, Richard and Krystyna
16     Piotrowski to the program and the listening audience. 
17     Numerously, I have witnessed all the phone line lights
18     blinking simultaneously as soon as the listeners are
19     told the magic words, "call the studio".
20  1513                 Even before anybody mentions the
21     studio number, all the lights are on; all the lines are
22     busy.  So, I suppose it must be the most popular number
23     with listeners of Polish program, Radio Polonia.
24  1514                 Even though they have another number
25     which is available to call and leave the messages, the


 1     voice mail over there is always full and requires
 2     emptying every three hours.  I suppose it shows you the
 3     popularity of the program.
 4  1515                 Why is it so successful?  I suppose
 5     it is because it popularized the Polish language,
 6     culture, news and live interviews.  You can see people
 7     from all walks of life that come to the studio and the
 8     same thing can be said about the people who are being
 9     interviewed.
10  1516                 I myself remember interviewing many
11     people from Poland and people of Polish descent from
12     all over the world.  For example, I interviewed Bobby
13     Vinton who sold some 4 million records and at some time
14     was more popular than Elvis Presley.  When Bobby's
15     career appeared to be ending, he wrote a song that
16     became an international hit, My Melody of Love, which I
17     suppose lots of people know, parts of which are sung in
18     Polish and it was inspired by his mother who is Polish.
19  1517                 The success of this Bobby Vinton is
20     an inspiration to all and above all you can contribute
21     to all success if you appreciate your own native
22     language or language of your ancestors.
23  1518                 Another example of inspiration is,
24     for example, success at the World Judo Championship. 
25     So now here we have an artist and now I am going into


 1     sports.  That world championship took place in Hamilton
 2     and it was some three years ago.  The Polish judo team
 3     was interviewed by me and Krystyna and they seemed a
 4     little bit down because of all the pressure and
 5     inability to believe in their own talents.
 6  1519                 However, they stated to us that
 7     cheering loudly would really help them.  So, we really
 8     did put our efforts in cheering because they captured
 9     two most prestigious gold medals, all-weight category
10     for male, all-weight category for female, and it was
11     the first time in judo history that those titles and
12     medals were taken from the Japanese.
13  1520                 In post-championship interviews both
14     medallists admitted that all that Polish cheering and
15     exposure to sympathetic Polish community here helped
16     them to capture the gold medals.
17  1521                 Now, I am saying Polish-Polish, but I
18     suppose all those things apply to other languages,
19     whether somebody is from the Japanese community or the
20     Italian community or many other nations, the same thing
21     would apply.  We look for inspiration, we look for
22     language at which people can more express themselves
23     and empathize with.
24  1522                 I have also interviewed a chief of
25     police, David Budby (ph) and we had a discussion on the 


 1     different ways of police operation in Canada and
 2     Poland.  He was especially impressed with using canine
 3     units to track down criminals in Poland and in
 4     comparison to Canada they were extremely highly
 5     advanced.
 6  1523                 So, concrete things happen besides
 7     discussions.  Chief Budby and Chief Fontina (ph) from
 8     London visited Poland and signed a co-operation
 9     agreement in police work between Poland and Canada and
10     also between -- I think I am going to have a glass of
11     water or something.  I have to make it fast so you can
12     go home.
13  1524                 Also, they signed some agreements
14     specifically on the work between Warsaw and Toronto,
15     the cities who have become twins.  So positive things
16     do happen from co-operation and understanding between
17     different societies.
18  1525                 For example, recently Jean Chretien
19     and his trade team to Poland and other European
20     countries.  They had signed some 40 deals in Poland
21     worth millions of dollars.  We had a consular from
22     Toronto, Chris Corwin-Korchinski, who is of Polish
23     descent and he was part of that delegation and we had
24     him yesterday on the air of Radio Polonia saying his
25     comments about the trade mission to Poland.


 1  1526                 Other people we interview are movie
 2     producers, actors, entertainers, economists,
 3     politicians, social workers, teachers, policemen and
 4     many other different professions, as well as ordinary
 5     people.
 6  1527                 The community also helps police in
 7     their investigation.  Appeals in a native language
 8     somehow make people more trustworthy.  Late last year
 9     when a Polish couple was murdered, as a Radio Polonia
10     initiative a police representative went live on the air
11     to appeal for information and witnesses.  So, we can
12     see positive things happening because people of
13     different cultures and languages have different views
14     of police.
15  1528                 Sometime the views develop in the
16     country of origin and not necessarily they would be
17     trustworthy of police.  Appealing in the native
18     language on public broadcasting helps in police work
19     and investigation.
20  1529                 Now, who are the listeners of Radio
21     Polonia?  The age varies, from children to seniors. 
22     There is a place for children on the air, especially
23     during the summer where a half an hour is devoted to
24     them.  Kids prepare their own program, sing and talk. 
25     The response is very positive.


 1  1530                 Excuse me, I usually don't get like
 2     that.  If I have more people I could --
 3  1531                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  You have had quite
 4     an adventure.  I think that's allowed.
 5  1532                 MS WALICHT:  Thank you.
 6  1533                 Seniors are usually first to pledge
 7     help to the needy.  They often call the studio.  This
 8     year, 1999, has been declared the International Year of
 9     the Older Person.  Ethnic broadcasting has a great
10     contribution to make and Canada has a great
11     contribution to make.
12  1534                 The age of the average Canadian is
13     going up steadily.  Canadian seniors are from almost
14     all world countries of origin and as such a perfect
15     model to lead the work in celebrating the International
16     Year of the Older Person and in promoting
17     intergenerational relations.
18  1535                 In many European and other countries
19     elders are looked upon with respect and appreciation of
20     great wisdom to pass on to future generations, an
21     especially important role in mentoring and motivating
22     the youngest members of society, children.  Now, this
23     is very important in education and in Canada, and
24     Ontario specifically, is going through educational
25     reforms right now.  So, I think those things would


 1     help.  Also, expressing one's self in the native
 2     language has many advantages.
 3  1536                 What changes we would like to see in
 4     ethnic broadcasting?  Well, I think almost everything
 5     was said today.  I would only like to add that we would
 6     like to have more air time for all ethnic languages. 
 7     Each time policy makers, politicians and big media
 8     moguls make decisions for greater profits, like for
 9     example the recent merger of two TV networks, making it
10     the largest in North America.  There is always a fear,
11     society needs respect and support may suffer.
12  1537                 In financial support, it is very
13     difficult for small producers, such as the producers of
14     Radio Polonia or indeed other producers of CHIN, to
15     compete with big moguls and yet it is the small
16     producers that make the biggest difference in society. 
17     It's like in a close-knit family, that's where you are
18     shaped in effect for the future.
19  1538                 I have a 14-year old daughter, Tanya,
20     and I mentioned to her about today's forum and she was
21     shocked that the CRTC could counsel all the language
22     stations in favour of official language station.  All
23     her friends know Johnny Lombardi and many watch
24     Saturday and Sunday television programming in many
25     different languages, languages that they can identify


 1     with, that they speak with at home even though they
 2     were born in Canada.
 3  1539                 She asked me to deliver a message,
 4     not counselling, but supporting ethnic broadcasting and
 5     this is on behalf of her and all her friends from St.
 6     Martin's High School in Mississauga.
 7  1540                 What is the contribution to ethnic
 8     programming to the community?  Besides being able to
 9     assure success of ethnic programming, small producers
10     give back to the community that supports the program. 
11     Many times and free of charge they help in fundraising. 
12     They always with teams supported telethons like the
13     Sick Kids' Telethon, Variety Village Telethon that
14     raise millions of dollars.
15  1541                 They also are the first ones to
16     extend a helping hand to all the needy, disabled and
17     misfortunate.  Last year's flooding in Poland prompted
18     Krystyna and Richard to go on the air and raise some
19     $50,000.  Also, the flooding in Winnipeg prompted the
20     response and initiation of a Polish program to do the
21     fundraising for that community.
22  1542                 Another time, an electromicroscope
23     was donated by Canadians of Polish descent for the
24     Medical Academy in Poland.  It was worth about
25     $300,000.  Now, Richard and Krystyna volunteered to


 1     raise funds for its installation and $20,000 was raised
 2     in five days.  People listen and people trust Krystyna
 3     and Richard Piotrowski.  It's an earned trust.  It's
 4     also appreciated by other producers at CHIN.  I
 5     witnessed myself the Croatian producer.  He noticed
 6     that we were doing a fundraising for a cause.  He
 7     considered the cause very worthy and he contributed
 8     himself right away.  I listen myself to almost all the
 9     programs and I enjoy the music, I enjoy the language,
10     even though I may not understand.
11  1543                 My son was speaking I think six or
12     seven languages when he was four years old because he
13     had all the friends who were speaking those languages. 
14     I was very surprised when he came home one night and he
15     was speaking Arabic.  Canada is a multicultural country
16     and a model to others in the equality of treatment of
17     all people.  So, this is what Canada is all about,
18     equal treatment to all people, communities, regardless
19     of ethnic background and broadcasting in ethnic
20     languages provides a forum for the people where they
21     can better understand each other, vent their
22     frustration or praise whatever they want to praise and
23     respond better to appeals that are coming from those
24     who come from the same culture, background and speak
25     the same language.


 1  1544                 Ethnic programming is a necessity,
 2     the same as the Canadian commitment and popularization
 3     of a multicultural society, a model to lead the world. 
 4     Europe unites, faiths unite, all people shall unite and
 5     we all will have a better world.  That's the end and
 6     I'm tired.  I want to go to sleep.
 7  1545                 Thank you.
 8  1546                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you so much.
 9  1547                 MS WALICHT:  And we all love Johnny
10     Lombardi.  He's like a papa to us.
11  1548                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  He was here
12     earlier.  I'm sorry, his son was here.  Junior was
13     here.
14  1549                 Thank you so much for being with us
15     and I know you have a long way to travel.  I just want
16     to apologize again for the confusion, but I am really
17     glad that you made it and thank you very much for your
18     contribution.
19  1550                 Thank you.
20  1551                 MS RHÉAUME:  Our final speaking of
21     the day is the Rev. Adolfo Puricelli.
22  1552                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Rev. Puricelli.
23  1553                 REV. PURICELLI:  Adolfo for the
24     family.
25  1554                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  You have the


 1     distinction of being our final participant.
 3  1555                 REV. PURICELLI:  Yes, and I was told
 4     that supper is around 1:00.
 5  1556                 I will try to summarize 15 pages.  I
 6     have a lot of sympathy for you, frankly, because you
 7     are already submitted to this torture for seven or
 8     eight hours, listening more or less to repetitive
 9     things.
10  1557                 I would like to start with a story,
11     if it is possible.  An old rabbi once asked his pupils
12     how they could tell when the night has ended and the
13     day has begun.  Could it be, asked one of the students,
14     when you can see an animal in the distance and tell
15     whether it's a sheep or a dog?  No, answered the rabbi.
16  1558                 Another asked is it when you can look
17     at a tree in the distance and tell whether it is a fig
18     tree or a peach tree?  No, answered the rabbi.
19  1559                 Then what is it, the pupils demanded. 
20     It is when you can look on the face of any man or woman
21     and see that it is your sister or your brother because
22     if you cannot see this it is still night.
23  1560                 I believe that the work that you are
24     doing is really to help us to see the faces of our
25     sisters and brothers and to encourage each other.  That


 1     means I am going to summarize some of the things I was
 2     trying to say a little more longer.  The first thing is
 3     to congratulate you for what you are doing at this
 4     moment in the review.
 5  1561                 The second is to tell you that since
 6     my position of Executive Director and senior pastor of
 7     an ethnic congregation I see many times the influence,
 8     the good influence that the mass media has on the life
 9     of people.  The concerns raised by your Public Notice
10     CRTC 1998-135 are extremely important.  I am only going
11     to call your attention to one detail here.  We plan to
12     submit to you a paper, so I mean it's okay.
13  1562                 Let me express serious concern in
14     relation with the Spanish-speaking community, who
15     represents a very rich and complex background with more
16     than 25 countries of origin that speak and/or use
17     Spanish as a mother tongue and the good mix that we
18     have with native people, African, Asian and the
19     European influence.
20  1563                 One of these countries today is the
21     United States of America, fourth in Spanish-speaking
22     population in the world and now becoming the first
23     ethnic minority with great political representation and
24     power at all levels of government of the United States.
25  1564                 This USA Hispanic population is


 1     producing thousands of Hispanic programs through very
 2     sophisticated areas, serving heavily the interests of
 3     multinational economic sectors originating or operating
 4     in the USA.
 5  1565                 In the same way that we are trying to
 6     defend the content of our magazines, papers and
 7     periodicals from the powerful influence from the USA,
 8     we need to do our best to facilitate and defend the
 9     economics and the content and production of programming
10     in music and so on.
11  1566                 I am going to escape and only say
12     that we believe strongly and I believe strongly that
13     the Type A and D programs are needed and I represent
14     one of them when I explain why.
15  1567                 I support, obviously, too the use of
16     the Type E programs because these programs can help all
17     the population to have more understanding of who we
18     were, who we are and who we are becoming in Canada
19     2000.  I believe that that type of programming is very
20     good and very necessary for the general population in a
21     cross-cultural approach.
22  1568                 I am going to emphasize other aspects
23     that are important, the intergenerational aspect of the
24     mass media communications gain more relevance for the
25     newcomers.  The adult parents always like to encourage


 1     their children to learn and keep their mother tongue. 
 2     The Type A and D programming will continue making that
 3     essential breach.  We need to do that in many ways.
 4  1569                 There was some study done in the
 5     eighties that shows that there are some languages that
 6     we bring to Canada and that they are somehow a
 7     different type of approach and schools are not
 8     seriously considering to teach them in the schools and
 9     it is very important.
10  1570                 The seniors, grandmothers and
11     grandfathers of the newcomers, are arriving sometimes
12     too late to master the new languages in Canada, but the
13     ethnic programming Type A is the best vehicle to keep
14     them informed, alive and aware of what is going on in
15     Canada and in the world.
16  1571                 To close my remarks, I would like to
17     exemplify with gratitude one of the good experiences in
18     Type A programming that I hope you will increase and
19     support for through the improvement of policies,
20     procedures and guidelines.
21  1572                 Telelatino has programs in Italian,
22     Portuguese and Spanish.  I live in a neighbourhood of
23     Canadians from Italian and Portuguese programs. 
24     Several times in my talks to them in the past year I
25     have heard from them words of acknowledgment and


 1     appreciation for their program and the other programs. 
 2     I mean these people are following very closely the
 3     thing.
 4  1573                 Specifically, I have known and
 5     participated in the program of Laura Productions with
 6     Telecide, "You Decide," all in Spanish.  This is a
 7     national program which reaches to Spanish-speaking
 8     people from the whole country.  It addresses topics of
 9     need in the newcomers and helps to openly deal with
10     differences and in a very constructive and respectful
11     way.  It also helps to integrate people to Canadian
12     society in a very meaningful way.
13  1574                 This type of programming, A, is very,
14     very beneficial to all aspects of national and
15     international life.  In this global village that we
16     live in, more and more of us belongs to two, three or
17     more social cultural backgrounds that need to be
18     reflected really in the policies of the CRTC.
19  1575                 Thank you very much.  The Creator of
20     all of us bless you and your important work.
21  1576                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
22     much, Reverend.  That's an appropriate note on which to
23     end today's session.
24  1577                 I would like to thank all of you for
25     being here at such a late hour and for your


 1     contribution today and this session is adjourned.  We
 2     will reconvene tomorrow at 4:00 p.m.
 3     --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2325, to resume
 4         on Wednesday, February 3, 1999 at 1600 / L'audience
 5         est ajournée à 2325, pour reprendre le mercredi
 6         3 février à 1600

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