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In order to meet some of the requirements under this Act, the Commission's transcripts will therefore be bilingual as to their covers, the listing of CRTC members and staff attending the hearings, and the table of contents.
However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded verbatim transcript and, as such, is transcribed in either of the official languages, depending on the language spoken by the participant at the hearing.
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
FOR THE CANADIAN RADIO-TELEVISION AND
TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION
TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DU
CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION
ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES
SUBJECT / SUJET:
PUBLIC HEARING ON
THIRD LANGUAGE AND ETHNIC PROGRAMMING /
AUDIENCE PUBLIQUE SUR
LA PROGRAMMATION MULTILINGUE ET À CARACTÈRE ETHNIQUE
HELD AT: TENUE À:
Dunsmuir Seniors Centre Dunsmuir Seniors Centre
411 Dunsmuir Street 411 Dunsmuir Street
Vancouver, B.C. Vancouver (C.-B.)
February 2, 1999 Le 2 février 1999
Volume 2
tel: 613-521-0703 StenoTran fax: 613-521-7668
Transcripts
In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages
Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be
bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members
and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of
Contents.
However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded
verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in
either of the official languages, depending on the language
spoken by the participant at the public hearing.
Transcription
Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues
officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront
bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des
membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience
publique ainsi que la table des matières.
Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu
textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée
et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues
officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le
participant à l'audience publique.
tel: 613-521-0703 StenoTran fax: 613-521-7668
Canadian Radio-television and
Telecommunications Commission
Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des
télécommunications canadiennes
Transcript / Transcription
Public Hearing / Audience publique
Third Language and Ethnic Programming /
Programmation multilingue et à caractère ethnique
BEFORE/DEVANT:
C. Grauer Chairperson / Présidente
A. Cardozo Commissioner / Conseiller
ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:
M. Vogel Secretary / Secrétaire
D. Jones Legal Counsel/Conseillers
G. Batstone juridiques
HELD AT: TENUE À:
Dunsmuir Seniors Centre Dunsmuir Seniors Centre
411 Dunsmuir Street 411 Dunsmuir Street
Vancouver, B.C. Vancouver (C.-B.)
February 2, 1999 Le 2 février 1999
Volume 2
tel: 613-521-0703 StenoTran fax: 613-521-7668
ii
TABLE OF CONTENTS / TABLE DES MATIÈRES
PAGE
Presentation by / Présentation par:
Civic Youth Strategy 156
Mr. Prasad 161
Nosotros Television 168
The Latin American Community Council 174
Ms Ekramoddoulla 183
RimJhim Radio 187
Progressive Intercultural Community 200
Services Society
Sikh Community Lodge 211
Paul Gill 214
Mr. Aujla 221
MOSAIC 228
Christian Task Force on Central America 240
Mr. Azam 244
Mr. Nurany 249
Mr. Yiu 255
National Campus & Community Radio 263
Association
Mr. Koya 271
Mr. MacRae 278
Mr. Chung 284
Korean Canadian TV 293
Mr. Janief 298
Ms Pham 306
Rogers Multicultural Service 308
tel: 613-521-0703 StenoTran fax: 613-521-7668
151
1 Vancouver, B.C. / Vancouver (C.-B.)
2 --- Upon commencing on Tuesday, February 2, 1999
3 at 1603 / L'audience débute le mardi 2 février
4 1999 à 1603
5 622 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon,
6 ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to Day 2 of our public
7 consultation here in Vancouver that we are holding to
8 review our Ethnic Broadcasting Policy.
9 623 My name is Cindy Grauer, I'm the
10 Regional Commissioner for British Columbia and the
11 Yukon. And allow me to introduce my colleague, Andrew
12 Cardozo, a CRTC Commissioner from Ottawa.
13 624 My Commission and colleagues will be
14 listening to the comments and the views presented by
15 participants in these consultations which are being
16 held here in Vancouver, as well as in Montreal,
17 Halifax, Toronto and Winnipeg. They will be concluding
18 tomorrow. We will also be receiving written comments
19 and documents by e-mail. All submissions, both oral
20 and written, will form part of the public record.
21 Objective of the consultations
22 625 These consultations are part of a
23 process the CRTC began two years ago to review its
24 major policies for the Canadian broadcasting system,
25 including television and radio.
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1 626 The goal of these consultations is to
2 help the CRTC examine the policies and regulations that
3 were established in 1985 when a Broadcasting Policy
4 Reflecting Canada's Cultural and Linguistic Diversity
5 was issued. One of the most important goals of this
6 policy is to ensure that the Canadian broadcasting
7 system serves the needs and interests of all Canadians
8 by reflecting their ethnocultural diversity in an
9 effective manner.
10 627 However, since this policy was
11 issued, Canada's demographic profile has changed
12 considerably, and the amount of third language and
13 ethnic programming available in the Canadian
14 broadcasting system has increased substantially.
15 628 By looking into these issues around
16 ethnic broadcasting, we are asking: are the goals of
17 the current policy still valid? And, is the policy
18 still effective in attaining these goals?
19 629 Public Notice 1998-135 set out a
20 series of questions and invited your views in response.
21 We are ready to hear your comments. But, before we do,
22 allow me to go on to some housekeeping matters
23 regarding the conduct of this consultation.
24 Housekeeping matters
25 630 CRTC staff assisting us during this
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1 consultation are Geoff Batstone, Dylan Jones and
2 Marguerite Vogel, who is the Director of our Western
3 and Territories Regional Office, and will be our
4 Hearing Secretary. I invite you to call on them with
5 any questions you may have, including any questions
6 about the process today, and for the rest of the
7 proceeding.
8 631 Our intention is to have the session
9 run until all participants have been heard. The
10 secretary will call each presenter in order. If you
11 want to make a presentation, but have not registered in
12 advance, please let the secretary know. Time
13 permitting, we will try to fit you into the schedule.
14 632 To ensure that all parties have an
15 opportunity to make a presentation, we ask that you
16 limit your comments to ten minutes.
17 633 The proceedings will be transcribed
18 and the transcript will form part of the record upon
19 which the Commission makes its decision. So that the
20 people responsible for this task can provide an
21 accurate record, I would ask that, when you speak, you
22 press the small red button on the microphone in front
23 of you. This activates the microphone, and is
24 indicated by a red light.
25 634 For those of you who prefer to submit
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1 your comments in writing, comment cards are available
2 at the back of the room, and from the secretary. If
3 you have any comments you would like to pass on, just
4 write them on a card, sign it and give it to the
5 secretary before the end of the session.
6 635 I would also like to add that anyone
7 can file any written submissions or comments up until
8 the 4th of March.
9 636 Now, what we will probably do is --
10 we found it worked effectively last night, is take a
11 break after each panel, which is probably in about an
12 hour and a half.
13 637 We also, while we have quite a few
14 people registered tonight, we haven't -- we don't quite
15 if everybody's going to show up. Last night was a
16 little shorter than usual. What we have been doing is
17 restricting ourselves from asking questions in the
18 interest of ensuring that we hear from you, because
19 that's really what we're here to be, is listening. So
20 while we may have the odd question of clarification,
21 don't interpret a lack of questioning on our part as a
22 lack of interest, but rather a desire to ensure that we
23 hear fully from all the participants.
24 638 So I think that's...
25 639 Now, let's call our first presenter,
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1 Madame Secretary.
2 640 THE SECRETARY: Thank you,
3 Commissioner Grauer.
4 641 I would just like to check to make
5 sure that the first ten people are around the table.
6 We find that we can cut down on commute time if ten
7 people sit at the table and do their presentations and
8 then we can have everyone move away from the table and
9 ten more presenters come up. So if you could just wave
10 if I call your name, I'd appreciate it.
11 642 Marie Didas, is that how you
12 pronounce your name? Thanks.
13 643 Muneshar Prasad, thank you. Eduardo
14 Aragon, thank you. Lubna Ekramoddoulla, thanks.
15 Shushma Datt, Charan Gill, Wai Young?
16 644 WAI YOUNG: I'm sorry. I'm actually
17 here to interpret for the seniors later.
18 645 THE SECRETARY: Okay.
19 646 Thank you.
20 647 Paul Gill, and Darshan Aujla. Thank
21 you very much.
22 648 I'm sorry, I missed Balwant Gill.
23 Thank you, Mr. Gill.
24 649 Okay. I would invite Marie Didas to
25 make her presentation first.
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1 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
2 650 MS DIDAS: Hi. My name's Marie
3 Didas. I'm from the Civic Youth Strategy. We're a
4 youth organization that liaises with other city youth
5 councils and we make presentations to City Council
6 based on issues that relate to youth. We have about 10
7 members.
8 651 Okay. I guess I'm just answering
9 these questions, right? So the first question would
10 be:
11 "To what extent does the present
12 broadcasting system adequately
13 serve Canada's ethnocultural
14 communities?"
15 652 I'm not sure that it serves it that
16 well because it's pretty low key. I don't think the
17 ethnic programming is promoted in such a way that
18 people know it even exists. I've heard of maybe one or
19 two programs myself and they're on the radio. I've
20 seen some on TV but usually it's, like, movies from
21 other countries and that type of stuff; I've never seen
22 anything that's local media about local culture groups
23 or whatnot.
24 653 The one radio station that I've seen
25 that's ethnic based is pretty good, but compared to
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1 other radio programming, I don't think it's got the
2 level of quality and it seems less organized and that
3 kind of stuff. For being the only radio programming
4 that I've seen that's ethnic, it's pretty good; but
5 that's because there's not much to gauge it with, I
6 can't compare it to anything else, but if you do
7 compare it to mainstream radio it's, like, visibly
8 less. It's visibly lower quality and it could totally
9 be improved.
10 654 The same thing with ethnic
11 programming on TV. There isn't just -- there just
12 isn't, like, promotion or presentation. When you watch
13 it, it just doesn't measure up to everything else and
14 that's why the level of interest is probably going to
15 be lower because you look at it and you're just, like
16 -- it's just not as good as everything -- it's just not
17 as good as everything else, but it could be if the
18 level -- I don't know, the quality is improved.
19 655 I'm sure that it serves some people
20 well, but for me as a youth, an ethnic minority, I see
21 very little broadcasting that appeals to me or serves
22 my interests or my needs or what I like or whatnot.
23 656 Okay. I'm going to move on to the
24 second question.
25 "Given the demographic changes
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1 that have taken place in Canada,
2 how can the needs and interests
3 of ethnocultural communities
4 continue to be served?"
5 657 Okay. I think in order for the needs
6 to be served, it's important to find out what they are
7 continually and I guess this is what you're doing right
8 now and that's great. That's definitely good.
9 658 As a youth, I'd love to see more
10 ethnic programming that's just geared to youths, that,
11 like local youth ethnic activities that's going on and
12 cultural events. And even, like, if you're coming from
13 another culture programming that's geared to help you
14 adjust to this culture, kind of thing. That would be
15 great to see. I'd also like to see any -- I don't
16 know, any kind of thing that's going on, just local
17 stuff, it would be really interesting. But it's not
18 going to attract me unless it's presented well or
19 promoted enough for me to even know about its
20 existence.
21 659 I think there's plenty of youth
22 interest in local ethnic community stuff, but it's
23 just -- it's still the awareness factor. It's just you
24 really don't know about it. I think youth from here
25 would probably be interested in learning about local --
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1 like local ethnic community stuff, as well, but again,
2 it's just the presentation when they're looking at
3 other stuff on TV or hearing other stuff on the radio,
4 it just doesn't reach out. It just doesn't make it any
5 more appealing.
6 660 And one thing that bothers me is the
7 way other cultures are presented by media here
8 sometimes. Like, I'll go to school and people will be
9 asking me about Ethiopia, where I come from, and
10 they'll say stuff like, "Did you live in a hut there?"
11 and "Were you starving?", and that's what I see in
12 media here. It's often very unbalanced and they'll
13 show negative things and I'd really, like, personally
14 be happy if they'd focus on local positive things and
15 like, kind of things that would make people interested
16 in watching and learning about other cultures. That'd
17 just be a good thing, I think.
18 661 Finally:
19 "Should there be a priority on
20 the development of Canadian
21 ethnocultural services rather
22 than important foreign
23 services?"
24 662 I guess that would be logical,
25 because since we're here, we have to talk about the
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1 surrounding issues and local ethnic stuff rather than
2 stuff from another country. It doesn't -- it doesn't
3 -- I don't know, it just doesn't make much sense to me.
4 If it's here it should reflect what's going on around
5 us and there's plenty -- I think that there's plenty of
6 cultural organizations and events that are happening
7 here, that could totally be covered. And that kind of
8 stuff is also the kind of stuff that would interest all
9 the other, you know, the kids who live here and the
10 other people who live here, because they don't want to
11 see, like, out-of-date movies from who knows where,
12 like, I don't know, out-of-date stuff that has nothing
13 to do with what's going on here. That's what is going
14 to interest people, that's what's going to interest
15 youth, in my opinion and that's what's going to
16 interest me, as well.
17 663 I also know a lot of people that take
18 part in local ethnic cultural events and they'd love to
19 have their things publicized, but there's just nobody
20 knows how to access it or that it even exists, and so
21 it's really, really hard. I just think if more
22 promotion and that kind of stuff went on, then it could
23 be way better and just more appealing.
24 664 That's about it. Any questions?
25 665 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. No,
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1 thank you very much.
2 666 MS DIDAS: Okay. Thank you.
3 667 THE SECRETARY: I'd like to invite
4 Muneshar Prasad to make his presentation now.
5 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
6 668 MR. PRASAD: Thank you.
7 669 I would like to thank the CRTC for
8 according this opportunity for me to speak as an
9 interested member of the public on this very, very
10 important issue.
11 670 Before I proceed, Madame Chair, I
12 wish to divert from the format to which I did not have
13 until now, the question and answers, so I may be
14 rumbling a little bit, or rambling a little bit, so
15 please bear with me.
16 671 I'm of the opinion at first, that we
17 must forthwith restore our national basis programming
18 for First Nations. When CBC had this program and then
19 the cuts came about, this program was lost. I rather
20 -- I'm not interested in -- on radio program as it
21 happens that which dog bit who where in England. That's
22 got nothing to do with me. I want the programming to
23 be brought at the local level and at the national level
24 and I think it will meet section 3(d)(i) of the Act
25 under which you are bound. It'll meet the requirements
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1 of multicultural society and ethnocultural needs if
2 that is implied.
3 672 At this time, I wish to now address
4 my mind to few other things. That we have got a large
5 community here of recent immigrants or immigrants who
6 have arrived a few years ago who do not have the
7 knowledge of English or French, and as a result of
8 that, that there is no national policy that whereby the
9 national policies are in -- are told through media to
10 this elderly citizens of ours. So they are basically
11 bound by innuendos or people taking advantage of these
12 people. What we really need, if the government has a
13 policy like everything is gazetted, that's the
14 government arm of decimating information. CBC Radio
15 and CBC Television should be doing that.
16 673 It is very important that the eldest
17 are made to feel at home in this country. Then we have
18 got private broadcasters and TV people, they are going
19 through difficult times, but they may have their own
20 agendas, which may not be my national agenda or our
21 national agenda, because we have to still build a
22 country. A 60 year person once asked me "Why is Quebec
23 giving us so much trouble?" Now, if this program was
24 in Hindi, if the issues were explained in Hindi, now
25 this elderly person would have understood that -- what
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1 was happening to our country, what is happening to our
2 country today. So the information had to be told to
3 this particular person through me, rightly or wrongly.
4 674 So these are some of the issues that
5 we are looking at. Also, if we are going in to
6 preventive health plan, you know, as I know, that the
7 -- that the people of the First Nations suffer from
8 diabetes, so do the East Indians. The First Nations
9 suffer from very high rate of heart failure and
10 arterial diseases, so do the East Indians. If an
11 education through radio or through TV is done, what are
12 we doing in here? What we are doing is basically we
13 are saving taxpayers hundreds of thousands of dollars
14 in the long run. We are producing not philosopher
15 citizens -- kings, but philosopher citizens, which is
16 also very important that the knowledge becomes common.
17 And that's it, it is utilized.
18 675 My hope and my aspersion is this,
19 that that -- that there be some ethnocultural
20 programming through CBC. I'm an insomniac and when I
21 switch on CBC at four o'clock in the morning, what I
22 hear is news from Europe. It's marvellous, but then I
23 hear the same stuff at seven o'clock then I hear the
24 same stuff at eight o'clock when I'm reading my paper,
25 I read it in the newspaper. There is no coverage from
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1 Asia. There's no coverage from the Pacific. This may
2 surprise you that CBC did not carry recently a
3 devastating flood in Fiji. They did not carry it.
4 Why? I do not know, maybe because of the geographical
5 division, it is not in the interest of Canadian's
6 government to be doing that, but whatever it may be.
7 Now then, there are close to 50,000 Fijians living in
8 here. We are all worried about our relatives back
9 home, so what do we do? We phone. I should not be
10 phoning, I should not be allowed to incur costs because
11 I'm paying -- I'm paying taxes from which CBC is funded
12 and CBC is not doing their job.
13 676 Talking about the other -- the other
14 issue is this, that -- that CBC FM, and I'm a great
15 listener of that particular program with Joergen
16 Goeth (ph) and the other lady that skips -- her name, I
17 escape at this time. It's a great program, you know,
18 wonderful western music. But never there is ever a
19 mention of the great Japanese flute music, Shakuhatchi.
20 There is never, ever explanation of the raagas, how
21 raagas are set up during the day and how raagas
22 original. There is no information, so what is really
23 happening in here? The barriers which could be broken
24 down is not breaking down, but if it was something
25 negative, if there was a fight in an "X" place, that
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1 will -- that will be run every hour until the following
2 day, it will not be dropped.
3 677 The culture where I come from happens
4 to be an Indian culture and my culture is not a
5 Bollywood culture. My culture -- the programming that
6 are being done, you know, it is better programming on
7 -- I hate to say this, but on channel, on the American
8 channels on cultural issues, channel -- the one across
9 here in Seattle. Wonderful programming, you can get a
10 lot of cultural stuff in there. We are failing. What
11 are we doing? I really do not understand.
12 678 The other issue that I would like to
13 raise is also that recently I had to spend $90 buying a
14 sub-carrier receiver, which I think is not good. It is
15 horrible state of affairs if I have to go if I want to
16 listen to a program that I have to go and spend $90 to
17 buy this particular sub-receiver. Why doesn't CRTC
18 make the FM channels available to the multicultural
19 groups.
20 679 You must understand this, that all
21 multicultural groups cannot throw money on that -- and
22 go and buy existing licenses, because a Fijian
23 community is not wealthy as other communities, late
24 arrival or early arrival, it does not matter. We
25 cannot go and buy a radio station. So therefore, I am
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1 asking that you do consider very seriously the -- the
2 FM licenses.
3 680 The other thing that really upsets me
4 also is this, that recently in -- on the sub -- on
5 sub-carriers lines, that the information is being fed
6 from Surrey, it goes to the United States and then it
7 comes back to Canada. And what is happening in there
8 that there is a lot of animosity because of the
9 politics involved which I do not want to get into at
10 this time, and there is no control. You know, no
11 reports can be made to CRTC or I don't even know the
12 American's have a similar organization whereby that
13 they can look at and call people for explanation.
14 681 It's a ridiculous situation. You
15 know, and that the Sikh community that tells me that it
16 is not acceptable to them.
17 682 If you just bear a second, I just
18 want to go through my notes in here.
19 683 At this time, I think I wish to thank
20 you for listening to me, and I would like to conclude
21 my remarks at this stage. Thank you.
22 684 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr.
23 Prasad, very much. I don't have any questions.
24 685 Commissioner Cardozo has a question.
25 686 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I just have a
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1 couple of comments to make, no questions.
2 687 Just first, to Ms Didas. I see
3 you're about to leave. I just wanted to say to you,
4 thank you very much for being here. It's not often
5 that we have young people come to our hearings and we
6 had some youth groups here yesterday, and I really want
7 to thank you for taking the time to be here.
8 688 MS DIDAS: Okay. No problem. Good
9 night.
10 689 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And Mr.
11 Prasad, I just wanted to point out that we have a --
12 the renewal of the CBC licence will be coming up later
13 on this year and there are hearings, consultations,
14 similar to this taking place in March. I believe it's
15 March the 16th here in Vancouver, but if you talk to
16 the person at the desk, she can give you the details.
17 690 And I mention that, because we look
18 at each issue separately, so the comments you have on
19 CBC, whatever comments anybody might have, are best
20 made during that hearing, then they get considered
21 within that context.
22 691 Thanks. Thanks, Commissioner.
23 692 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
24 693 THE SECRETARY: Our next presenter is
25 Rossana Ascencio. Go ahead.
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1 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
2 694 MS ASCENCIO: Can you hear me there?
3 695 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
4 696 MS ASCENCIO: Yeah.
5 697 Good afternoon everyone. First of
6 all, I want to say that it's a great honour for me to
7 be here tonight, well today, taking part in something
8 that I know will be decisive in the future of ethnic
9 broadcasting policies.
10 698 My name is Rossana Ascencio and I am
11 the co-producer and host of Nosotros Television.
12 Nosotros Television, it's a local community magazine
13 produced in Spanish, 100 percent locally here in
14 Vancouver. And it broadcasts weekly on the Rogers
15 Multicultural Channel.
16 699 Unfortunately Miguel Figueroa, our
17 senior producer and director was unable to be here
18 tonight, but I speak for both of us, when I say that we
19 believe that this is a great opportunity for us to
20 express our needs as local producers.
21 700 As I said before Nosotros Television,
22 it's a local magazine and was created a year and a half
23 ago, precisely because of the need existing of having a
24 space that will represent the local community that will
25 bring us information of what's happening around our
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1 city, around our community, information on the issues
2 that affect our daily life here in Vancouver. And also
3 because of the fact that we believe it is important for
4 us to keep our language alive, not only culturally but
5 also for future generations of immigrants and also to
6 have a space for the new immigrants to come -- that
7 come to our city to feel related to something when they
8 arrive in Vancouver.
9 701 Nosotros Television is, as I said,
10 broadcasted on the Rogers Multicultural Channel and we
11 are thankful for this space, because we believe that if
12 it wasn't for spaces like this one, we wouldn't be able
13 to reach into our community and this is why we think
14 that this is the moment to give a change and to review
15 what's been done until now.
16 1630
17 702 As I said, we are thankful for this
18 space, but we believe that we have many limitations as
19 local producers. As local producers, we have an
20 interest in promoting our local arts, local sports,
21 local events, local issues, but we have a huge
22 limitation, and that is the monetary one. As you know,
23 there are many limitations for sponsorship in a
24 community channel, as the multicultural channel is.
25 And this not only limits our budget, but also the way
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1 that we can reach into our community.
2 703 So basically, as an answer to the
3 first question that you presented, I believe that right
4 now, or we believe right now as producers, that the
5 system just reaches the community to a certain extent
6 and serving the multicultural community to a certain
7 extent. There are things that have to be modified.
8 704 And, as a second point, I think it
9 links to the same thing, there are things that have to
10 be addressed and changes that have to be done in order
11 for local producers who feel the need to reach into
12 their communities to have access, not only to funds,
13 but to bigger sponsorship and to larger budgets to
14 produce our programs and have a way to reaching into
15 our community.
16 705 And as an answer to the third
17 question, I believe that the services, the changes and
18 the cultural services, are definitely a priority,
19 rather than foreign services. When we have the
20 opportunity to present this program for the Rogers
21 Multicultural Channel, it was precisely because until
22 that time, a year and a half ago, well, actually two
23 years ago, there were only programs that were imported,
24 foreign programs from Latin America, that were serving
25 only to a certain extent our community. Programs that,
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1 in fact, related our people to what was happening in
2 the homelands, which, as you know, Latin America's
3 composed of -- by more than 20 countries. So we are
4 serving itself a very large and diverse community.
5 706 So until that time, the programs, the
6 foreign programming were only serving our community to
7 a certain extent. This is why we started producing
8 this local program, this local magazine. And until
9 now, we are happy to say that we have reached into our
10 community and we are very aware of the needs that the
11 Latin American community and the Spanish-speaking
12 community at large has. But once again, we are limited
13 by this -- we are limited by the current policies and
14 by the current ways that our programs can be sponsored.
15 707 The Rogers Multicultural Channel is
16 making huge efforts for us to be a more viewer-friendly
17 channel. We face this reality day by day. When we
18 have to apply for media accreditation, something that
19 we faced a couple of days ago, for the Grizzlies, we
20 are currently supporting and we are very, very proud to
21 know that there are two Latin American players in the
22 Grizzlies. So we went there and we applied for media
23 accreditation and we were not treated as mainstream
24 media. We were considered, "Oh, you're local community
25 programming. Oh, you're local producers. You're only
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1 community programmers". They don't take us seriously.
2 Only because of the fact that they say local community
3 programming and this is limiting us. This is not
4 allowing our community to have a more serious
5 presentation, a more serious representation in the
6 media.
7 708 And for this, I only want to conclude
8 my presentation saying that the changes that need to be
9 addressed from our view are the facts of the policies
10 and the way our programs can be sponsored and the fact
11 that, yes, in fact, for private broadcasters, there's a
12 challenge for them to open their spaces, also, for
13 ethnocultural programming.
14 709 This is it.
15 710 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms
16 Ascencio. I would also -- thank you very much for your
17 presentation.
18 711 I'd like to remind you that you have
19 until the 4th of March to make any further submissions.
20 So if you have any specific recommendations with regard
21 to these areas you're concerned about, we would welcome
22 hearing from you on that.
23 712 MS ASCENCIO: Thank you. And I would
24 just like to add, and in fact, my presentation has to
25 be this short, because I have to run back to our studio
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1 to keep doing our program for Thursday.
2 713 THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, thank you
3 very much for making the time to come and talk to us
4 today.
5 714 MS ASCENCIO: Thank you for the
6 opportunity, once again.
7 715 THE SECRETARY: Our next presenter is
8 Eduardo Aragon.
9 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
10 716 MR. ARAGON: Good evening. I'm here
11 representing the Latin American Community Council.
12 717 It is a great honour and pleasure for
13 me to be here representing a -- we represent a network
14 of services for the Latin American community. As such,
15 we deal with all the current issues that are affecting
16 Latin Americans in the Lower Mainland, and also have
17 some contacts with workers in other areas of the
18 province and other areas of the country.
19 718 This gives us a very intimate insight
20 into what is happening to Latin Americans in Vancouver,
21 in the province and abroad in Canada and further out
22 into other countries.
23 719 We have noticed that ethnic
24 programming is extremely limited. If you are a working
25 person, you have to miss the daily programming that
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1 occurs in working hours. Several other people do not
2 have regular nine-to-five jobs, so unfortunately
3 Nosotros cannot be seen by many people because they
4 have to work. And the spaces are very limited and the
5 channels that actually broadcast in Spanish are
6 absolutely limited.
7 720 If we take a look at the current
8 demographics in Canada, we realize that people of Latin
9 American descent or Spanish-speaking, account for the
10 fourth place in all immigrants to Canada. In B.C.,
11 this number is a lot smaller, we only account for
12 18,000 individuals.
13 721 But this is not true representation
14 of who we are. We believe that many people do not
15 express in Statistics Canada that they come from a
16 different background or that they speak a different
17 language at home. And statistics are a little
18 truncated because of the fact that if I marry a
19 Japanese woman, the language spoken at home is not
20 going to be Japanese or Spanish, it's going to be
21 English or French. Therefore, the data that is
22 collected by Statistics Canada is not reflective of the
23 community that the CRTC is intended to serve.
24 722 I believe that by negating the very
25 nature of who we are by prohibiting any reference to
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1 ethnic origin in some of the surveys, we are not being
2 true to who we are.
3 723 Having said this, I would agree with
4 Ms Ascencio when she says that sponsorship has a lot
5 to do with the variety of programming. If the sponsors
6 are not supporting the ethnic language programming,
7 it's probably because they do not feel that they will
8 be presented in the most advantageous way in the ethnic
9 programming. Therefore, if Latin Americans amount to
10 fourth in terms of all ethnic backgrounds in Canada,
11 that market is being lost to your English or French
12 counterparts.
13 724 There are many people that do not
14 watch the regular news or the regular programming
15 because they do not understand the language in which it
16 is provided. Elderly people, newcomers to Canada,
17 young children who do not speak the language because
18 they recently immigrated or because the language at
19 home is not English or French, are being prevented or
20 deprived of programming in their own language.
21 725 Other than that, I would like to say
22 that the four or six or eight hours slot in a week of
23 ethnic programming by any language, in particular,
24 would not address the diverse needs of the whole
25 community. You would probably have a soap opera in
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1 Spanish and that would certainly address the needs of a
2 limited number of viewers, but certainly it would not
3 address the needs of young, the needs of older people,
4 the needs of working people. Therefore, the
5 programming is very limited and in fact, people have to
6 go to the mainstream media for anything else because,
7 as I said before, the sponsors are not there to support
8 a wide variety of programming and there are many
9 restrictions for the ethnic language programs to
10 approach the sponsors and I believe that should be
11 changed. And the way that they -- promote the sponsors
12 should be consistent with the way sponsors are promoted
13 in Spanish-speaking countries, for instance, or
14 Chinese-speaking countries.
15 726 You see, the limitations imposed on
16 the ethnic programmers are such that they have to
17 promote the sponsor the English way, and that doesn't
18 work for the ethnic communities. Sponsors have to be
19 promoted according to the language and culture where
20 the programming is offered.
21 727 It's been cited that there is very
22 few frequencies available for, you know, ethnic
23 programming to be expanded. However, you know, if you
24 think of digitalization, then you're thinking many more
25 opportunities for many more things to happen, even
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1 single language channels that would be -- if we're
2 talking Vancouver, there could be a production in
3 Vancouver to contribute to a single-language network.
4 728 If Latin Americans are the fourth in
5 terms of all ethnic backgrounds in all of Canada and
6 yet not so big in Vancouver, if local programming could
7 be added to a Spanish-speaking network, for instance,
8 that would be very advantageous because it would
9 promote local interest in Vancouver, but also in the
10 Maritimes, it would promote local interest in Toronto,
11 but also in Québec and the Yukon, because it would be a
12 network that would broadcast and that would give the
13 diversity of programming to all the viewers' needs.
14 729 And the same is true for any other
15 language that you can think of. The sponsors would
16 feel more encouraged to contribute or to be announced
17 in a network, rather than just Vancouver or just
18 Richmond. The CRTC encompasses all of Canada and if
19 the sponsors know that they are advertising in a
20 network, at 4:39 p.m. in Vancouver, but at the same
21 time at 7:39 in Toronto, they would be a lot more
22 willing to support any endeavour that would create
23 local programming. Not imported programming from other
24 countries or some things that had been made in Spain or
25 Chile or Mexico, but local, Canadian-born, Spanish
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1 programming.
2 730 And we are all Canadian-born or first
3 generation Canadians who have no access to our ancestry
4 or our language or any of that because of regulations
5 that were enacted in 1985. The population demographics
6 have changed quite dramatically, and I think that the
7 CRTC should make a bigger effort to reflect the reality
8 of, not just today, but 10 or 20 years from now. We
9 have to think about the future -- in terms of the
10 future and not in terms of 20 years ago, which doesn't
11 help our viewers, it doesn't help our communities.
12 731 The classification of the programming
13 in Type A, Type B, Type C, Type D, Type E, it's a
14 little complex and it should have to be re-evaluated.
15 And I know for a fact that programming of Type C, for
16 instance, is not very big on the existing ethnocultural
17 channels or any of the networks, is because it's
18 probably not promoted properly. If you talk about
19 Canadian history in terms of black immigrants, that
20 would certainly attract them. Even if it's in English,
21 because it's about who they are and it would view them
22 as truly participants in this society.
23 732 If you speak of -- just look around
24 you, Alma Street, Blanca bus, Juan de Fuca Street, in
25 so many of the names, that speaks of our Spanish
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1 heritage, but is not being scratched in current
2 programming of the day. I challenge the CRTC to make
3 it known that Canada was not built by two guys, one
4 from England and another one from France; Canada was
5 built by immigrants, by me and by all of you and it's
6 in the process of being built. We haven't gotten to
7 the finish yet, we're just building the second story
8 here of a larger building.
9 733 So I challenge the CRTC to reflect
10 who we are in terms of programming, in terms of
11 languages spoken and in terms of our history.
12 734 And I think that's all I have to say.
13 Thank you very much.
14 735 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much
15 Mr. Aragon. I don't have any questions, but I believe
16 Commissioner Cardozo does.
17 736 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you,
18 Commissioner Grauer.
19 737 I just wanted to ask you, you were
20 talking about your dream, perhaps, of a network of
21 Spanish speaking or Latin American radio stations
22 across the country at some point in the future when
23 there can be digital capacity across the country.
24 738 I just wanted to get a sense from you
25 whether you think then, that there could be -- if such
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1 a thing could be licensed, that there would be adequate
2 programming made in Canada or do you think there would
3 have to be some imported and do you think that there is
4 an adequate economic base on which to make it
5 economically viable?
6 739 And I'm not anticipating a
7 carved-in-stone answer, because I understand where your
8 thinking is on this, but I just wanted to get a sense
9 of that from you.
10 740 MR. ARAGON: First of all, the
11 answer's a little bit of a dream, but then reality,
12 sir, is made of dreams. If we don't have dreams, we
13 don't have realities, we don't do anything.
14 741 I believe that it is possible, at
15 this particular moment, it is possible to do some of
16 the things I said. If we take CBC to task, or any of
17 the existing channels to task and speak of the history
18 of the people that make the -- the make up of Canadian
19 society, you will find that there is a market for them,
20 there's all of us. Twenty percent of the immigrants
21 that come to Canada, actually make B.C. their new home.
22 So there is a market for those people to know that they
23 are not newcomers, that their ancestors are founding
24 mothers and fathers of Canada, as well.
25 742 Networking, well Rogers is vigorously
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1 promoting digitalization and they are saying that by
2 the next Millennium, early in the next Millennium, we
3 will have access to hundreds of channels. And are we
4 then thinking the CRTC will then start to look at it?
5 Or now is time to look at these things, because the
6 policy here says 1985. That's a long time ago. I've
7 been here in this country for two years then. And now
8 is time to think of the future in terms of how can we
9 expand the programming, the markets and truly there are
10 main contributors to the existing networks, Molson
11 Canadian, BC Tel, et cetera, et cetera, who would be
12 very willing at advertise in other programs.
13 743 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thanks very
14 much. Thanks Madame Chair.
15 744 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
16 745 THE SECRETARY: Our next presenter is
17 Lubna Ekramoddoulla.
18 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
19 746 MS EKRAMODDOULLA: My name is Lubna
20 Ekramoddoulla. I'm here to express my personal views
21 which addresses the CRTC's Ethnic Broadcasting Policy.
22 747 I have what is called an ethnic
23 background and so the CRTC's policy has a direct impact
24 on me now and in the future. I also have a degree in
25 communications and ethnic programming or lack thereof
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1 and it's effects on ethnic communities as a social
2 issue in which I have an interest.
3 748 My ethnic background is
4 Bangladeshi/Bengali, which would be categorized broadly
5 as South Asian. My parents are from Bangladesh, but I
6 was born and raised in Canada, specifically Winnipeg,
7 Victoria and Vancouver.
8 749 My childhood was spent mostly with
9 Bengali and non-Bengali children, but when I became an
10 adolescent, I was faced with many problems relevant to
11 my culture. I was constantly challenged with balancing
12 my traditional Bengali culture, quote/unquote "my
13 parent's culture" and mainstream western culture or
14 Canadian culture.
15 750 Did I adhere to the Bengali social
16 roles or customs of my parents or did I act and appear
17 like my Canadian friends? This question reoccurred
18 throughout my adolescence. I was in constant conflict
19 between Bengali traditions and lifestyle choices of
20 people who were born and raised in Canada. I was
21 always in conflict trying to resolve this issue which
22 subsequently led me to almost reject my ethnic
23 background.
24 751 But in the last couple of years, I
25 have come to realize that I don't have to make a choice
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1 between the two cultures. I can integrate my Bengali
2 traditions into my mainstream Canadian lifestyle. But
3 it was not easy for me to come to this conclusion. I
4 made this decision when I realized that my new Bengali
5 friends in Eastern Canada had done so. I saw that it
6 was possible to maintain ethnic traditions while living
7 in Canada and being a Canadian.
8 752 In retrospect, I also realized that
9 media, specifically television, had and still does have
10 an extremely strong influence on how I perceived and
11 dealt with this cultural conflict I experienced.
12 753 I fully admit that I watched a lot of
13 television, perhaps even too much. Anything I watched
14 had an effect on me. Unfortunately, I cannot remember
15 a single program that dealt with cultural conflict
16 between an adolescence generation and his or her
17 parents' generation or with ethnic youth in general or
18 had ethnically diverse characters. There is not much
19 that reflected me or my situation.
20 754 I'm in my early twenties now and I
21 still find the need to watch programs that relate to me
22 and my culture. My realization that I can integrate
23 Bengali traditions with Canadian choices does not
24 exempt me from being part of a South Asian ethnic
25 multicultural audience with a need.
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1 755 Currently, there is some South Asian
2 programming available, however, it is only on a
3 Specialty channel and airs at unreasonable times of the
4 day. For example, in the morning or early afternoon
5 when I'm at work or school or at midnight when I'm
6 sleeping. The programming I have seen is more of the
7 type of local current events, rather than dramas, for
8 example, which deal with real issues played out in
9 realistic situations. As well, there is no third
10 language programming in Bengali within that South Asian
11 content.
12 756 And while you may infer what my
13 anecdotes are attempting to portray, I will be explicit
14 in my recommendations regarding ethnic programming.
15 757 The Bengali and general South Asian
16 communities, certainly like other ethnic communities in
17 Vancouver and the Lower Mainland, is in need of a
18 broadcasting outlet with programming that will reflect
19 and address its issues and concerns, especially for its
20 youth and other marginalized groups within that ethnic
21 community.
22 758 The programming needs to be local,
23 about us in Vancouver or the Lower Mainland. It needs
24 to be diverse, representing all groups within the South
25 Asian community, including Bengali, not just Punjabi or
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1 Hindi. It needs to be aired during prime time and
2 other reasonable air times and not be restricted to
3 Specialty channels.
4 759 And in general, national television
5 stations need to increase its Canadian programming,
6 especially that which include positive representations
7 of multi-ethnic and multicultural issues. I want to be
8 able to turn on the TV at any time of the day and see
9 position South Asian stories on any of the national
10 mainstream television stations.
11 760 There has been at least one program
12 that was a good example of what the CRTC's Ethnic
13 Broadcasting Policy was intended to encourage. It
14 aired during prime time on a mainstream television
15 channel, it was developed and produced in Canada and
16 attempted to reflect and address issues and concerns
17 facing many of Canada's aboriginal communities. So why
18 doesn't Canada, specifically Vancouver or the Lower
19 Mainland, have more programs like that that deal with
20 South Asian and other ethnic communities?
21 761 I think the intentions of the CRTC
22 policy on ethnic broadcasting are supportive of
23 multicultural Canadians. However, it's application is
24 ineffective at adequately serving ethnic communities
25 such as South Asian.
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1 762 I hope that my story has helped to
2 make that clear and I hope to see many positive
3 improvements in Canadian ethnic programming in the near
4 future. Thank you.
5 763 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very
6 much. I don't have any questions.
7 764 THE SECRETARY: Next, I'd invite
8 Shushma Datt to make her presentation.
9 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
10 765 MS DATT: Members of Commission,
11 ladies and gentlemen. Thank you very much for giving
12 me an opportunity to present my views on the
13 broadcasting policy reflecting Canada's linguistic and
14 cultural diversity.
15 766 My name is Shushma Datt and I am the
16 owner/operator of an SCMO service licensed in 1987
17 called RimJhim. "RimJhim" means "drizzle". Keeping in
18 mind that it drizzles in Vancouver 12 months of the
19 year.
20 --- Laughter / Rires
21 767 MS DATT: The 1985 ethnic policy, I
22 feel, is outdated and needs to be looked into and
23 that's what is being done today and we are very happy
24 about that.
25 768 When I came to Canada 27 years ago
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1 from England, CJVB was licensed as the first ethnic
2 radio station. My stint to CJVB lasted for seven
3 years, during that time, a one hour a day program for
4 the South Asian community seemed just right. It was in
5 1978 that then, CJJC, which was a conventional radio
6 station used the 15 percent ethnic broadcasting clause
7 and brokered time to aspiring South Asian business
8 people. It's announcers charged only $5 per ad,
9 compared to the $25 that CJVB charged.
10 769 CJJC ran 12 hours of South Asian
11 programming every Saturday and CJVB's one hour a day
12 suffered immensely. Unhealthy competition was the
13 death of CJVB's one hour a day South Asian programming.
14 770 It was very evident at that time that
15 the community was growing and it's demands were
16 growing, too. When I left CJVB, it was evident that
17 there has to be a stand-alone service for the South
18 Asian community, but the regulations were and still are
19 very strict for unilingual services and are not
20 encouraged by the Commission.
21 771 I waited for nine years before I
22 could embark on a stand-alone SCMO service for the
23 South Asian community. In those nine years I entered
24 the world of television. My association with Vancouver
25 Cablevision, now Rogers Cable, goes back to 1976. I
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1 will address the ethnic television issue, as well.
2 772 The SCMO service, RimJhim, that was
3 licensed in 1987 is in it's twelfth year. With an
4 impressive staff of 25 broadcasters who have their
5 broadcasting background in England, India, Pakistan and
6 Fiji, RimJhim operates like any other broadcasting
7 undertaking. Although we are not regulated, our
8 station follows all the FM regulations.
9 773 We keep a logger tape, we abide by
10 the Broadcast Act. Our programs enhance the South
11 Asian mosaic. We broadcast in Hindi, Punjabi, Urdu,
12 Gujarati and English. We work as a link between new
13 immigrants and old-timers. We keep our listeners
14 up-to-date with what is happening in their world and in
15 the world outside of their circle. We tie up with
16 India twice a day to provide a 20 minute news coverage
17 and have 15 news bulletins in a day on the hour, every
18 hour in Hindustani and Punjabi, telling the listeners
19 what's happening in their world.
20 774 We respect all religions and present
21 morning programming for Sikhs, Hindus, Christians and
22 Muslim listeners. RimJhim is a non-partisan radio
23 station with its beliefs strictly embedded in the
24 spirit of multiculturalism. We, South Asians, are
25 perhaps the most multi-lingual and multicultural
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1 community of Canada.
2 1700
3 775 Running an SCMO service has its
4 downside, too. We are not recognized as broadcasters.
5 The card book which lists all radio and television
6 stations have repeatedly turned us down for listing.
7 Consequently, no major advertising agencies with their
8 head offices in east know of us. Although SCMO can
9 boast of a very dedicated audience. But because of
10 it's limited service and quality, SCMO in British
11 Columbia faces a problem of a clean signal. But SCMO
12 is a viable proposition for a community that is
13 growing.
14 776 Having said that, we feel it also
15 needs to be regulated. We feel the Commission has to
16 pay a little more attention to what is being said on
17 air through these broadcasts. There is a Surrey-based
18 radio station and many of the presenters have talked
19 about it. Carried by a Canadian broadcaster, the
20 Knowledge Network, beamed to Bellingham and bounced
21 back to Lower Mainland. I wonder if open threats were
22 issued on a regular radio station, or for that matter,
23 on a SCMO service with slogans like "death to all Jews"
24 or "death to all Christians" would it have been
25 tolerated. It cannot be a mere coincidence that a man
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1 who was continuously threatened in that Surrey-based
2 SCMO service was assassinated last year.
3 777 In the world of DTH, it would
4 probably be a viable proposition to give major
5 communities unilingual service. Our radio station is
6 poised to embark on such a platform, as we have
7 outgrown our SCMO waveband.
8 778 Coming to my second love in life,
9 television, broadcasting, I would like to say that
10 Rogers, with its multicultural channel has been serving
11 the Lower Mainland communities adequately. The Rogers
12 multicultural channel is in it's 19th year of broadcast
13 and will be completing its 20th year in October this
14 year. The efforts they have put into serving the needs
15 of the Lower Mainland is commendable. I am of the
16 opinion that it is high time this channel became
17 commercial, period, dot.
18 779 Its strict guidelines make it
19 difficult for the producers to make ends meet.
20 Producers on this channel subsidize their programs with
21 the hope that one fine day it would be deregulated.
22 With Rogers latest change of program policy, it is
23 making it even more difficult to produce local
24 programming.
25 780 For the past 19 years, I have
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1 produced programming on the Rogers multicultural
2 channel and the current format of the station, which is
3 trying to attract non-ethnics to the channel, is 180
4 degree turn, different from the format that the
5 audiences were used to for years. I am of the belief
6 that it's current format is losing its dedicated
7 old-time viewers. I am forced to think if this channel
8 was a commercial ventures, would Rogers still divide
9 the programming block and eliminate programs that
10 command a higher viewership?
11 781 An estimated 10,000 signatures went
12 to Rogers at the cancellation of block programming for
13 the South Asian community. That speaks volumes for
14 that program.
15 782 Currently, there are nine producers
16 vying for the South Asian market share. The rate war
17 has brought not only the quality, but also the
18 viewership down. It is unheard of in any broadcasting
19 undertaking that a service provider would encourage
20 in-house rivalry by having more than one producer per
21 language. I understand even CFMT has one producer per
22 language.
23 783 Your question regarding a national
24 ethnic television network, its need and viability needs
25 to be looked into carefully. We feel that there should
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1 be a stand-alone unilingual ethnic services for those
2 languages that can sustain themselves. For example,
3 the Chinese service has two specialty channels, one for
4 the Chinese language alone and one with 50 percent
5 programming in Chinese. Similarly, a South Asian
6 service would be able to sustain itself, but a
7 multilingual ethnic service for many languages with the
8 broken half an hour, hour slots, is not viable any
9 more.
10 784 Added to that, a national service
11 would not serve the needs of a local community. The
12 owners of such a service would be in it for money and
13 that will probably come from the English language
14 American programs.
15 785 Ethnic concentration in major cities
16 differ from one another. In Vancouver, Chinese and
17 South Asians are the biggest ethnic groups, whereas the
18 currently licensed ethnic station in Toronto has only
19 five hours of programming for the South Asian
20 community. A national ethnic service would be
21 economical for the provider because of the discounted
22 program rates it would be able to acquire with services
23 in Toronto and the rest of Canada. But we feel it
24 might short-change the ethnic communities in the Lower
25 Mainland and other parts of Canada.
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1 786 National ethnic licence must
2 implement and advisory board as noted by presenters
3 yesterday evening, as well.
4 787 With that, I end my presentation. If
5 you have any questions, I would like to answer them.
6 788 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Datt.
7 I don't have any questions, but I have a point of
8 clarification, and I'll also check with staff.
9 789 When we asked about the possibility
10 of a national ethnic network, I believe we were
11 thinking along the lines of something like a CTV which
12 would link -- or multilingual or ethnic stations in
13 various communities with some common programming and
14 some shared programming. Is that...
15 790 MR. JONES: The question that's in
16 the Public Notice is open-ended. So there are
17 obviously a variety of models and I would take
18 Commissioner Grauer's question to be: If one were to
19 imagine a model with independent affiliates providing
20 locally relevant programming, would your concerns be
21 the ones that you've raised? Is that...
22 791 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. And more to
23 -- I guess in my own way, I think of it as a specialty
24 service if it's one national service beaming the same
25 thing to everybody, as opposed to a network being a
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1 group of independents that might share some
2 programming.
3 792 MS DATT: Well, in that case, a
4 service which would have networks throughout the
5 country --
6 793 THE CHAIRPERSON: Or stations.
7 794 MS DATT: Or stations would be much
8 better. I think then the local component can be
9 preserved and it would also enhance the national
10 network. I'm not opposed to that. That is
11 progression.
12 795 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very
13 much. Commissioner Cardozo has a question.
14 796 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Maybe first I
15 can just add to the timing of this. What we said about
16 a year ago, we had a hearing on whether there should be
17 additional national networks and it came out of Global
18 wanting to be a national network. And one of the
19 presentations we had was from Rogers Broadcasting, who
20 raised the issue of a multicultural national network.
21 We also had a request for a national aboriginal network
22 and we heard that application a couple of months ago,
23 we haven't had a decision on that yet.
24 797 But with regards to the multicultural
25 network, what we said was after this process which
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1 we're going through right now, we would at that point
2 be ready to entertain applications and I think we'll
3 then, out of what people have to say, such as what
4 you're saying right now, those are the kinds of things
5 that will go into giving us some kind of framework as
6 to which direction we think we should go or maybe we
7 won't be specific.
8 798 But in terms of chronology, once we
9 finish with this process, we'll then be looking at, you
10 know, Rogers or anybody else might come in with such an
11 application.
12 799 I just had a question on the SCMO
13 issue and I just want to understand it a bit better.
14 800 Your service, you're providing an
15 SCMO service through another licensee and in order for
16 people to get your service, they have to have an
17 additional gizmo to get it. Right?
18 801 MS DATT: That's right.
19 802 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And is that
20 one for each radio?
21 803 MS DATT: It is.
22 804 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And is it only
23 radios in houses as opposed to cars?
24 805 MS DATT: Well, because of our -- the
25 way Vancouver is, ups and downs and hills and all that,
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1 it's very difficult to listen to a SCMO in a car. You
2 can in certain areas, but it's usually for the house.
3 806 Some people have it, like the taxi
4 drivers I know, all of them have RimJhim in their
5 taxies and they listen to it, because nighttime is the
6 time that they need to listen to music.
7 807 It is each radio, is a separate unit.
8 As you know --
9 808 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: It's a
10 separate radio from your regular radio?
11 809 MS DATT: Yes, it is.
12 810 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Right.
13 811 MS DATT: Because the SCMO is on
14 kiloHertz frequency, which is very low. So to be able
15 to hear the kiloHertz frequency, it needs to be
16 boosted, so a regular radio does not have kiloHertz
17 frequencies, it has megaHertz. And so SCMO radios
18 separate the kiloHertz frequency from an existing FM
19 station. Like, for example, we are on CJJR, so it
20 separates that frequency, 92 kiloHertz and it enhances
21 it, so that you can hear it on the radio.
22 812 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. And in
23 terms of cost, what is the average cost of such a
24 radio?
25 813 MS DATT: When I first started in
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1 1987, it used to cost us $120 U.S., because there was
2 no organization that was or other company that used to
3 build them here. We went to Western Diversification
4 and proposed to them that we could build them here, but
5 I don't think our presentation was that great. So they
6 threw it out of the window.
7 814 So we had to, for the first four to
8 five years, buy the radios from America, but now, every
9 technologically alert man or woman can sort of make a
10 SCMO radio. It's not that difficult.
11 815 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. And you
12 can attach it to, if you've got a $10,000 sound system
13 in your house, can you attach this system to it?
14 816 MS DATT: Yes. Yes, you can. But
15 with the fear of the warranty on that unit being void,
16 because once you open the unit and you mess around with
17 it, you would be voiding the warranty.
18 817 We have come up with a little unit
19 that rebroadcasts within the house and cannot go beyond
20 40 feet because of the Department of Communication
21 regulations. That has given older people a better
22 chance to sort of listen to the radio in their bedrooms
23 and also in the kitchen or wherever.
24 818 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: All right.
25 Thanks very much.
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1 819 MS DATT: Thank you.
2 820 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you,
3 Madame Chair.
4 821 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Datt.
5 822 THE SECRETARY: Our next presenter is
6 Charan Gill.
7 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
8 823 MR. GILL: Thank you, Madame Chair.
9 824 I am representing Progressive
10 Intercultural Community Services Society, which is a
11 non-profit society, helps people for job counselling,
12 ESO, resume writing, information referral and helping
13 them to adjust in this community and how to integrate
14 properly in the community.
15 825 So our efforts have been more or less
16 community based on the local issues, which are quite
17 common, like any other citizen, under-employment,
18 unemployment, racism, barriers to employment, all those
19 issues we deal with in a small way. We have about 32
20 staff which is engaged in helping people to cope and
21 adjust in the new environment.
22 826 And in this ethnic media, I frankly
23 see recently the change of tune, more song and dance,
24 more recreational activities than any social affairs or
25 any education, like previously mentioned by various
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1 speakers in terms of parent/child conflict because of
2 the changing values, emerging issues, emerging needs of
3 the young people, seniors who need some place to rest
4 in their later lives. It's nice to have a great
5 families of -- extended families who look after seniors
6 and other people, but there are some who fall into the
7 cracks, need some support.
8 827 So we are engaged in social housing
9 and other activities to prepare ourselves to serve our
10 community better, that they can enjoy a quality of life
11 which all citizens deserve.
12 828 But unfortunately, as is mentioned by
13 Shushma Datt and a few others, there are issues with
14 the ethnic media which are very serious.
15 829 First, anybody can buy a radio
16 station and put any garbage on the airwaves, like
17 sometime they escape because it's coming from the
18 United States, this creates loss of disharmony and
19 disunity in the community, a very poisonous
20 environment, which results in assassinations, beatings
21 and many other things which are not acceptable to us as
22 a community who serve people to cope and adjust in the
23 whole society. It's not helping them. It's taking
24 them back to the old issues back home.
25 830 I don't say that we should not be
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1 listening to home issues, I think it's a great. We
2 must listen to our background because we are related to
3 that, we enjoy that. But not all the time. Not all
4 our energy should go back home in listening to those
5 issues, which nothing we can do over here.
6 831 So my interest would be with the
7 ethnic media that they must designate 20 percent time
8 for social affairs, for people's education, giving them
9 direction, giving them counselling through airwaves,
10 advertising a variety of community programs which exist
11 in the society to help them out should they need help.
12 832 There's issues of substance abuse,
13 drug abuse, wife abuse which should be dealt with on
14 the media issues and discussion, debates, bring
15 educated people to talk about those issues.
16 833 Demographic is increasing, it's time
17 is overdue for the CRTC to come and get input from the
18 communities. The South Asian community, which I mean
19 people originated from the Indian subcontinent, are
20 almost over 300,000, 400,000 around that, in B.C. And
21 visible minority communities are over, almost 19
22 percent in B.C. right now. We rarely see our faces on
23 the mainstream media. We rarely see the positive
24 stories on the mainstream media, very -- we have to
25 work hard to get our word out. But negative stories,
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1 always first news, headlines on the front line on the
2 local Vancouver Sun and Province papers. You can
3 easily see that.
4 834 We don't seem to have any control on
5 that. We seem to be very powerless that the
6 negativities spread out by this mainstream media is
7 allowing people to stereotype us, that we're all like
8 this. They don't see us as individuals, but see as a
9 group of people who are violent, who are criminals, who
10 fight with each other, who may be willing to kill each
11 other. That kind of image is being portrayed, which is
12 horrible.
13 835 If we have ethnic media, whereby we
14 have some control, not the control by some rich folks
15 who can buy the station and put somebody who have no
16 generalistic knowledge, he doesn't even know about ABC
17 of announcements, and I have been an announcer, who
18 cannot speak the language properly, own Punjabi
19 language, forget about English, and spill hatred on the
20 media. And we need to have some control. The CRTC
21 must be very heavily coming down on those stations to
22 really cancel their licenses out because they are
23 really harming the communities.
24 836 And some folks, who would make money
25 out of this hatred, they sell hatred and make money
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1 through ads, and there's too many ads, rather than any
2 good substance for debates and discussions which
3 community can benefit.
4 837 My focus will be how ethnic media --
5 how you are going to portray or control the media which
6 will be benefitting, making harmonious relationships
7 within the communities and even providing intracultural
8 relationship, knowing because we have 90 to 100
9 different communities here now, we got to know our
10 values and belief systems and respecting each other and
11 getting to understand, which is not done. Very,
12 very -- we had a time that Shushma Datt's TV one time,
13 maybe do community things. And she lost that, I think
14 to song and dance, because they sell, they give some
15 kind of drugs, some kind of recreational activity at
16 home, sitting at home. But it's only short-term, it
17 doesn't go anywhere.
18 838 What happens after that, the life is
19 the same, the reality is there. So they don't touch
20 the life or the reality by providing them with
21 education, about their rights. It takes ten years for
22 people, many, many people, before they get to know they
23 have certain rights in this country. They think --
24 they compare with the old country, that they have the
25 same rights. Even the wages, when people ask for
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1 wages, agriculture workers, I worked with, and they're
2 told, "Don't speak about the wages, you can be
3 deported", and they believe it. Those issues really,
4 we have to get to them early, not allowing them to wait
5 ten years.
6 839 All immigrants, when we come here in
7 this country, we lose five, seven years. Be fumbling
8 around, we go up and down, we start from bottom ladder
9 and going up again after four or five years. We
10 always, most of us have lost five, seven years of
11 lifetime, education and stuff, because we have to
12 reeducate, restamped by the Canadian educational
13 standards, to compete in the job market, otherwise we
14 won't get jobs. Our doctors, the many people with the
15 foreign credentials are working as janitors, taxi
16 drivers and they're quality people, but they are not
17 allowed to practice, who already have practised 15 to
18 20 years in the old countries.
19 840 We want to raise those issues in the
20 media. In the ethnic media and get people together to
21 say that this is our issue, this issue of
22 under-employment, why be as first immigrant when you
23 come they were well qualified, how come we make so much
24 less money than others? How come you never see any
25 visible minority up in the boards, up level higher up
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1 in the governments, the ADM, Deputy Minister -- you
2 don't see those.
3 841 So those are the -- those are the
4 issues I would like to see media representing us,
5 allowing us by guaranteeing 20 to 25 percent social
6 affairs material, which relates to people's life, right
7 here, there are issues, local issues and some -- so
8 forth.
9 842 And definitely the program quality is
10 deteriorating, because it's not to deliver service to
11 ethnic community is to make a buck. Most of the radio
12 stations, the TVs, their priority is who will --
13 anybody who will put in the ad, they will have a time
14 for radio station, too. It doesn't matter what they
15 have to say, they can spill garbage there, but they can
16 have a time because they're selling ads to that station
17 and they force them to come on the airwaves and say a
18 few things, which are not -- never, very rarely
19 profitable to the community or helpful to the community
20 at all.
21 843 Accountability. There must be some
22 accountability what they say on the airwaves and
23 there's none. I would say the communities totally
24 falling apart, helpless, getting angry, getting mad.
25 Some lunatic fringe over there listening to these
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1 garbage could kill somebody, has killed somebody, could
2 hurt somebody, could attack some good people who are
3 trying to tell them, give them some direction. But the
4 fanatics may say, "No, no. They're wrong kind of
5 people, so get them". Some lunatic may act on those
6 emotions later on someday, so I'm really afraid of
7 that. Is it happening in the community and it may --
8 it may continue until you come with a heavy stick.
9 844 And bring Canadian that don't allow
10 ethnic media to be a separate in the corner, allow them
11 to meet the Canadian standards and ethics and respect
12 Charter of Rights of freedoms, freedom of speech, all
13 those kind of things. Bring them up to the poor, not
14 allowing them to slip away and do harm to our
15 communities, to our children of our people in here.
16 845 So my hunch will be that the
17 demographics, especially South Asian, we're the second
18 largest, and other visible minority, does warrant that
19 we have some control on our destiny, some control what
20 we say to the people and we can reach out to people in
21 terms of giving a positive spin to intercultural
22 relationship, giving the multicultural value systems,
23 which we adhere to, which we respect to and all those
24 things. We can convey those messages. We are not
25 given a time, we are not allowed to have a time,
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1 because it costs quite a bit to get a license, all
2 normal people can't get it. They can't run the
3 station.
4 846 Community-based issues should be
5 given one hour or two hours to do the community work.
6 And of course, the CRTC has to be closely regulating
7 and monitoring these issues. There are tapes which are
8 in Punjabi, Chinese or other languages. People say
9 things, they must deposit to CRTC that they can be,
10 because we folks out there cannot monitor them, we
11 don't have the time. We cannot tape each and
12 everything what they say, but we -- if we have that,
13 people tell us that the garbage was said, wrong thing
14 was said, insulting remarks were made to somebody,
15 somebody would -- did very hurtful things to someone.
16 Then, if the tapes are deposited with the CRTC, then
17 they get to the point and say, "Look, you have it. Such
18 and such date, let's get it" and translated and punish
19 those culprits. Otherwise they won't stop it.
20 847 So the overall -- my presentation, I
21 would like to say in terms of demographic, in terms of
22 priority, if you want the human welfare, if you want
23 the immigrant to settle in this country properly and
24 enjoy a quality life, enjoy the life which they deserve
25 and the full citizenship rights, then I would ask you
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1 support ethnic media, which is positive, which is
2 trying to create unity, harmony and trying to direct
3 people to become a part and parcel of this largest
4 community and be a part of -- quality part and be a
5 contributing citizens. Those are the issues at stake
6 now, because people are so angry, they don't feel like
7 working, they are upset, they think they don't have any
8 power.
9 848 So I would suggest to CRTC, give some
10 directions what kind of program and one should have.
11 Not to go their ways and do whatever they want and take
12 their radio station, their personal property and do
13 spill garbage, whatever they want to do. It's really
14 hurtful, it's hurting.
15 849 And the other issues which I want to
16 say in terms of priority, bring to people in their
17 adjustment, settlement issues, the issues of day to
18 day, they face in terms of unemployment, like any other
19 community, how to resolve those issues, how to resolve
20 issues of parents and children's conflict, how we
21 support those families who are in dire need. Those are
22 the issues I would like to see happening and I will
23 like to see CRTC given some kind of directions, a
24 positive direction towards that end.
25 850 But I think the media at this time,
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1 is not serving the ethnic community very well. It's
2 not serving it at all because of lack of control.
3 851 That's all I need to say, Madame
4 Chairperson and all my notes are all over here and
5 there. But --
6 852 THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, you've made
7 your case very eloquently.
8 853 MR. GILL: Thank you.
9 854 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
10 855 MR. GILL: I have the extra letter --
11 which I didn't want to go into too much, what we do. I
12 have some -- go on more to you. That you can have a
13 look at it, what we stand for, what we do.
14 856 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very
15 much. I think we have a copy, do we?
16 857 Madame Secretary...?
17 858 THE SECRETARY: Our next presenter
18 this afternoon is Balwant Gill.
19 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
20 859 MR. GILL: Good evening, ladies and
21 gentlemen.
22 860 My name is Balwant Singh Gill, I'm
23 President of Gruman Sikh Temple and I am spokesperson
24 of 35 societies throughout B.C.
25 861 Previous speakers have covered lots
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1 of my points, like Shushma Datt and Charan Paul Gill.
2 I will say little about what they already have covered,
3 but I had some other points to raise.
4 862 Like, ethnic programming. We do not
5 get proper and enough time for the ethnic broadcasting.
6 Our time is given when the audience is away, they're
7 working or they're in schools or colleges, universities
8 or they're sleeping.
9 863 And I have a concern about side band
10 broadcasters. A side band broadcasters have no
11 principles and they do not follow any regulations.
12 Side band broadcasters have created more problems for
13 the community. They openly contravene guidelines and
14 rules. People are insighted and poisonous propaganda,
15 tries to promote violence in the community.
16 864 People are sick and tired of the
17 violence -- talks, the community has complained many
18 times in writing to the CRTC, et cetera, have no --
19 paid any attention to our address. Some of them, the
20 side band broadcasters, they're operating in their
21 basements without any license, without paying any dues,
22 they're breaking all the rules and regulations.
23 They're promoting hatred against certain people,
24 individuals, certain groups, certain organizations,
25 even life threats to their families, openly, publicly,
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1 every single night, five hours a day. And we have
2 written to the CRTC so many times in the last couple of
3 years. Until now, no action has been taken.
4 865 I think they are waiting until
5 somebody gets killed and some of their family member
6 get killed, then they will take action against those
7 people who are abusing the system.
8 866 So you are not doing proper job and
9 you not seem to be working for the peace-loving ethnic
10 community.
11 867 TV and radio control is in the hands
12 of the non-ethnic, BCTV, your TV, Global TV, et cetera,
13 they have no ethnic people in their management and
14 administrative decision-making positions.
15 Multicultural programs are just a name. Indo-Canadian
16 community had been fragmented by the subtle tactics of
17 Roger and CRTC. We pay the taxes and contribute in the
18 society and we do not get what non-ethnics get. It
19 seems you have made a -- created ethnic and non-ethnic
20 division.
21 868 So we need more ethnic programming,
22 more air time and more people should be employed in the
23 management of the radio and television stations.
24 869 I will say -- I will go a little
25 further more to Roger multicultural TV programs.
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1 There's very little programs to the religious knowledge
2 to be through our -- religious temples, churches, to
3 our kids. They are going away from our temples, our
4 churches. So there's no time at all for these
5 religious thing to be broadcast for our children.
6 870 So one more thing I will say again
7 about the side band broadcasters, they should be
8 controlled by the CRTC and they should be policing by
9 the CRTC thoroughly. We have hundreds of hundreds tape
10 and we'll provide it to the authorities, those tapes,
11 translated into English and written, but no action has
12 been taken since the last two years.
13 871 So I'm strongly asking from the CRTC
14 to look into those issues, especially from the side
15 band broadcasters.
16 872 Thank you.
17 873 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very
18 much, Mr. Gill. You, too, have made your case very
19 eloquently. We've heard your concerns and are taking
20 them into consideration.
21 874 Thank you.
22 875 MR. GILL: Thank you.
23 876 THE SECRETARY: Our next presenter
24 this afternoon is Paul Gill.
25 1730
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1 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
2 877 MR. GILL: Thank you.
3 878 First of all I want to thank the
4 Commission for giving me the time to present something.
5 I had not applied for it, and it was just a spur of the
6 moment, I had just accompanied Mr. Gill to these
7 hearings and it's given me an opportunity to convey to
8 you what had been simmering inside me over the last
9 year from a personal experience. And that is the
10 question of the side band radios, whereby they are not
11 regulated by anybody and it is a personal experience.
12 I'll take a minute to relate it.
13 879 It happened to be unfortunately make
14 a call to this talk-show host in Surrey running on
15 upnots and Geet (ph) radio station which is -- through
16 the Knowledge Network as broadcast out of Bellingham
17 and happened to disagree with his point of view. Upon
18 which he started criticizing me personally, after I had
19 made the call and then started looking at, saying this
20 person should come to the radio station and I said,
21 "Okay. Well, I --" I went, he was not there he
22 broadcast out of his basement. I called from the
23 station and said, "Well, you were asking, saying I
24 should show up. Here I am, you're not here". He said
25 "Well, call me later" I said, "Well, that's enough."
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1 880 I left it there. This individual
2 started asking on the air, saying wherever I am, I
3 should be calling him and I -- not only he did not only
4 stop there, he called my home and announced on the air,
5 saying, "Well, I've called Mr. Gill's home, he's not
6 home yet and we will try him again".
7 881 And sure enough he called twice again
8 and got me the third time at my home. And this is a
9 talk show host phoning here and saying, "Okay. What do
10 you want to say now?" And after I'd given and said,
11 "You know, I disagree with you. I differ with you, but
12 you shouldn't have called me at home", he stopped,
13 after I had hung up, he stopped any commercials from
14 that program, any advertisements, the time it was
15 taking, and he announced on the air that today we are
16 just going to call and talk and started, you know, from
17 his own group of friends, taking those calls, and
18 criticizing what I had said and making things like, you
19 know, people like me are zeros and not to worry about
20 this, that these are people that wear red underwear and
21 you know, those tapes are there. Maybe we can
22 translate them and give it to you.
23 882 So one of the recommendations I want
24 is that these talk show hosts that are there, that
25 their tapes be deposited and they should also to the
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1 CRTC submit an English translation of their programming
2 so that, you know, you can monitor them, what kind of
3 garbage these people are doing and their -- can be
4 regulated. And certainly, there should be ethical
5 standards set up that should, the CRTC should have an
6 ethical commission whereby it should set up, for the
7 programmers, that, you know, that they should have
8 ethical screens set up by the CRTC so that these radio
9 stations or others that meet those ethical screens.
10 883 Having aired my beef now, to answer
11 the questions that you have put before -- the question
12 that you have put forward and the answers that you're
13 looking for, yes, I personally feel there should be a
14 national network which should carry on ethnic
15 programming. There is a need for it, there is not
16 adequate ethnic programming at the moment. Whatever
17 there is, the competition is so much among it that
18 the -- people are trying to buy it on BCTV or, you know
19 any -- has gone up so high that they can hardly produce
20 the quality of programming that need to be there.
21 884 Those ethnic programs need to look
22 at, you know, the medical knowledge or the issues of
23 youth, the issues of seniors.
24 --- Technical difficulties / Problèmes techniques
25 885 MR. GILL: I can't see now.
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1 886 THE CHAIRPERSON: Just wait until
2 they flip the switch.
3 887 MR. GILL: It's just like - this is
4 an indication --
5 888 THE CHAIRPERSON: We won't count this
6 as part of your time.
7 889 MR. GILL: This is how, you know, the
8 ethnic media has been operating in the dark, had been
9 kept in the dark. This instance can --
10 --- Laughter / Rires
11 890 MR. GILL: And you know, certainly
12 the current affairs, part of it, what is going on in
13 Canada, what is happening? And I think strongly that
14 CBC or others or the channel that carries the coverage
15 of the House of Commons, it should be broadcast in more
16 than, you know, just the French and the English
17 language, so that, you know, seniors and others can
18 understand what is happening on a daily basis, what are
19 the Parliamentarians doing and they can understand the
20 issues that, you know, are being listened to in Canada.
21 891 The issues of, you know, what is the
22 big deal about Quebec. I mean, you know, you try to
23 explain it to a 70-year old man from India who doesn't
24 know and he doesn't understand what is, you know, what
25 is the issue of, you know, why they are asking for a
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1 vote, you know. What is Lucien Bouchard saying? What
2 is, you know, Jean Chretien's position on that? And
3 certainly that would help it and you know, those
4 current affairs, it will educate to us from coast to
5 coast and all ethnic groups about, what is Canada about
6 and you know, where we are going with it.
7 892 And Mr. Gill raised the issue of, you
8 know, more ethnic people in today's -- and I'd
9 certainly think that, you know, there should be. One
10 of the issues, when you review their licenses and
11 reissue them, the job equity on these networks should
12 be one of the screens or one of the criteria you should
13 be looking at how much job equity these radio stations
14 or television stations have been promoting into their
15 upper echelons, because if you have people in senior
16 management positions or broadcasting ethnic people from
17 various -- they will have some impact on the policies
18 and the guidelines of those stations.
19 893 And it should not only there, as for
20 it going into, you know, but should there be a priority
21 on the government of Canadian ethnoculture programs,
22 yes, definitely. We shouldn't be importing all of it.
23 It has to be developed because the issues that are
24 raised by the ethnic youth that was referred here
25 earlier, in the hearings, the have to be aired, they
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1 have to be conveyed. The programs have to be that the
2 youth here and the -- and their parents and
3 grandparents are entrusted at the same time and they
4 can -- all willing to watch those programs, not that
5 the youth are willing to watch a different program and
6 the seniors want a different one. That you have to be.
7 894 And what do you know, the world
8 becoming a global village and the global trade it
9 tides, are you -- to have to understand the programs
10 and the needs in those countries where we -- Canada is
11 trading, so it helps when these people, the youth go
12 out and to do trade in those countries, to promote
13 Canada and Canadian products, they have a better
14 understanding of the cultures of those and we do not
15 make mistakes. Like one of the trade missions into
16 China where the report that such and such placed and
17 has his children studying in Canada, which is not
18 viewed as very good in China.
19 895 So, you know, those issues that, you
20 know, when people are going out here, they're not being
21 briefed what they have a genuine understanding of those
22 cultures, so trade is done there. And certainly that
23 network would help it and thereby also create to a
24 vibrant economy of Canada whereby you're promoting
25 these and certainly as far as, you know, the
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1 commercialization or the question was asked earlier
2 that will they for it? Right now, in that ethnic
3 newspapers and others, there are BCTV or others,
4 they're advertising in there. They'll advertise it.
5 They see their base, where there is that, you know,
6 what -- who are their consumers? Ethnic people are the
7 consumers.
8 896 If you take the Lower Mainland, I
9 think it's a good 30 to 40 percent. You could qualify
10 people into one ethnic group other than, you know, the
11 two main major groups, you could qualify into those
12 areas. So certainly that has to be looked at and not
13 taking any more time. I think you should look at that.
14 897 But once again, I want to convey very
15 strongly that these side band radios should be
16 regulated, they should have some ethics. There should
17 be ethical screens put on those so that people are not
18 frustrated and they do not, you know, agonize over it.
19 I mean, you know, and boil inside and take some drastic
20 actions.
21 898 Thank you very much.
22 899 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very
23 much.
24 900 THE SECRETARY: Our next presenter
25 this evening is Darshan Aujla.
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1 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
2 901 MR. AUJLA: Good evening, ladies and
3 gentlemen. I'm grateful to CRTC and all of you for
4 listening to me.
5 902 First of all, I'll introduce myself.
6 My name, she has already stated. I'm Aujla Darshan
7 Singh.
8 903 I have served over 37 years with
9 distinction in India, Indian army, retired as a senior
10 officer, that is in the rank of Brigadier General. I
11 was director of my own Corps, which was Army Physical
12 Corps.
13 904 I come into this country in nineties,
14 early nineties -- 1990 and since then I've been doing a
15 lot of research works.
16 905 One of the earlier speakers, has
17 stated that it's difficult to get a job over here. And
18 I will state, in 1960s when this country was short of
19 education teachers, the teachers from India were
20 imported and they were getting the job in the next day.
21 And their education and everything was accepted in this
22 country. And today, a person may come highly educated,
23 a doctor, anybody, that education is not accepted
24 there -- here, sorry. So, that is one point.
25 906 Which can go through people through
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1 radio, TV, which is a good medium of communication.
2 And TV is doing good service. But at the same time,
3 let us say today you are asking views of people, but if
4 this team thinks that whatever we are saying is going
5 to be a personal thing, and you are going to answer as
6 to why this is not done, why that is not done, then it
7 will get bogged down here only.
8 907 What my request is, whatever are
9 suggestions should be taken in the right spirit and
10 implemented as far as possible, because today, one of
11 my earlier colleagues has said, we are coming very
12 close to each other. And the media is serving us, TV
13 and radio is serving us. And if the right type of
14 information is not given to people, that is education
15 or current affairs regarding our own country, that is
16 Canada, or the country from where we have come is not
17 given to people at the right time, quickly, then we
18 could well be deficient of that.
19 908 I'm only going to confirm the facts
20 given to all of us today by earlier speakers. I'm just
21 going to put them in a brief form and state:
22 909 Ethnic groups need a lot of
23 entertainment, education and knowledge about current
24 affairs. And it should be conveyed to them as much as
25 possible. A lot of time should be given to them and it
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1 should be given in such a way that the majority of
2 people can listen to that. They are not at work and
3 they have not gone to sleep.
4 910 For that matter, you have -- no, you
5 have heard Shushma Datt, she's got 20 years experience
6 of radio, TV is going to complete about 12 years as
7 completed, she's got a lot of experience and it is well
8 tried, the unit, which is giving good service to our
9 community.
10 911 But there are other units like
11 sub-carriers who are promoting violence in our
12 community, hatred, wrong propaganda, to meet their own
13 ends. They should be checked. As Paul Gill has just
14 said, there should be proper monitoring of those
15 people. And for that matter, every person who comes on
16 the air or goes onto the TV should give -- should keep
17 a record of what they have announced, and it should be
18 maintained in English or French or English/French,
19 both. Then only we can be saved, otherwise we are in a
20 big problem.
21 912 Then problems like education about
22 other cultures, we're talking about our own culture,
23 that's okay. Within our society, but outside, nobody
24 knows what this turban is. Here comes a small little
25 thing which may explain to all of my people present,
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1 once roaming around in Reno City in U.S.A., somebody
2 was after a colleague of mine and he was saying to ask,
3 "Are you badly hurt?" He said, "Why you said this?"
4 He said, "You've tied a big bandage on your head".
5 Because he didn't know what this turban is. That
6 fellow thought this was a bandage.
7 913 And that is what happened in 1993 in
8 Surrey. People just wanted to get into some area, the
9 other group was saying, "You take off your turbans."
10 These people are saying, "No, we will not take off
11 turbans." This was a lack of education about the other
12 culture. After that, multicultural association was
13 contacted and we had four to five workshops just to
14 explain them, what is our culture, what is your
15 culture.
16 914 Some of the earlier speakers have
17 said about racism. Even until to date, although it is
18 less, people shout at us. Unless we speak, we can
19 convey ourselves in English or something, people say,
20 "This person has no -- with turban and beard, no, he
21 doesn't speak English". They ask you ten times.
22 915 But if, through our media, TV and
23 radio, we continue educating people who are living in
24 this country about the other cultures, then people will
25 be living at peace. And that is our aim.
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1 916 Actually, we're as -- through TV and
2 radio, we entertain people, we also educate them.
3 Educate them about the substance abuse, educate them
4 about the religions, to teach them about other
5 religions, all such things should be done. So for our
6 own culture, Indian sub-countrymen, culture is
7 concerned, I during the last few years, I'm not trying
8 to praise Shushma Datt just because she's sitting here,
9 but I am saying it sincerely that she has done a good
10 service to our community. And it is a pleasure to
11 listen to her program, the radio program which is 24
12 hours working and also the TV.
13 917 But then, we find Rogers digital
14 network is reducing her time. And as stated earlier
15 again, some people who can buy the programs from him,
16 it's time to give more to them. That type of imbalance
17 should be checked. And I would say, we are
18 peace-loving people, and we should be allowed to live
19 like that and the propaganda, giving -- to certain
20 individuals for the sake of certain people to meet
21 their own demands, should be checked.
22 918 With this I'll not take any more
23 time. I will, once again, thank the people sitting
24 around me. I'm very grateful that I have been given
25 time to talk to you in their midst.
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1 919 Thank you so much.
2 920 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very
3 much.
4 921 And I think this concludes this
5 panel. What I'd just like to say is, I'd like to thank
6 all of you very much for taking the time to come here
7 today. I know a lot of you have gone to a lot of
8 trouble to share your views with us.
9 922 It's very important to us in terms of
10 our deliberations and considerations and
11 decision-making that we have the views from Canadians
12 across this country and as we're saying more often,
13 most often is that our decisions and our work is as
14 well informed as we are, and you've been very helpful
15 today in increasing our level of understanding of the
16 issues your community is facing.
17 923 Thank you. We'll take a 15 minute
18 break.
19 1750
20 --- Recess / Pause
21 924 THE CHAIRPERSON: Madame
22 Secretary...?
23 925 THE SECRETARY: Thank you,
24 Commissioner Grauer.
25 926 I'd like to just read off some names
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1 and if you can wave or smile or nod or something to let
2 me know that you're around the table.
3 927 We have Ngoc Tran Pham, Marta Gloria
4 Delavega, Sikandar Azam, John Nurany, Gabriel Yiu,
5 Magnus Thyvold, Mohammed Koya, Scott MacRae, James
6 Chung, Nathan Cho and Mohammed Janief.
7 928 Thank you very much.
8 929 Then our first presenter on this
9 panel will be Ngoc Tran Pham. Go ahead whenever you're
10 ready.
11 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
12 --- Background noise / bruit de fond
13 930 MS PHAM: So if you can't hear me,
14 please wave and don't sit there and just get angry.
15 Anyhow, I'd like to apologize because I'm fighting a
16 cold and I've been coughing for the last two, three
17 weeks and I hope that I don't cough too much and ruin
18 your tapes tonight.
19 931 THE CHAIRPERSON: It'll be the bells
20 welcoming you.
21 --- Laughter / Rires
22 932 MS PHAM: Oh, that's good.
23 933 Okay. Yes, my name is Ngoc Tran
24 Pham, and I'm a Vietnamese Canadian. I came to Canada
25 about 15 years ago and I've -- I lived in Canada, I
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1 lived in Ottawa since 1983, not 1993 like it says on
2 your sheets. And I moved to Vancouver about two and a
3 half years ago.
4 934 I'll just tell you a little bit about
5 my personal background, besides that. I've --
6 currently I'm working as a coordinator of Vietnamese
7 Community Services and in particular, I am looking at,
8 with my project, I am looking at the effectiveness of
9 community services that are provided to the Vietnamese
10 Canadian clients in the Greater Vancouver area. And
11 the areas that we're looking at are health, employment,
12 ESL, youth and family issues. So it's an ambitious
13 project.
14 935 I work in an organization --
15 organization called MOSAIC and it's an organization
16 that provides immigrants and refugees to Canada with a
17 settlement and integration needs or services, rather.
18 I've been an active member of the Vietnamese Canadian
19 community in Ottawa and in Vancouver, probably almost
20 15 years, both professionally and as a volunteer.
21 936 My contacts with the media, I guess
22 would include eight years volunteering as a host for a
23 Vietnamese radio program in Ottawa, and also I work in
24 collaboration with the local Vietnamese media here in
25 Vancouver.
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1 937 Let's see, you know, it's interesting
2 because as I was writing up this, making jot notes for
3 this presentation tonight, I realized that in a lot of
4 ways, it seems that there are -- it appears that there
5 are a lot of similarities between my work and the goals
6 of the CRTC Public Consultation tonight. And that is
7 that, you know, in my project, I and the people that
8 are working with me, really -- we really examine
9 services and we look at gaps in services and ways that
10 gaps can be bridged, so that we can better serve our
11 clients and we can work towards further -- furthering
12 the empowerment process for Vietnamese Canadians in the
13 Greater Vancouver area.
14 938 And it would seem that that is very
15 similar to the goals of the CRTC in that you're looking
16 at ways to -- you're really examining the broadcasting
17 system and looking at whether or not it effectively
18 serves multicultural communities in Canada. And I
19 think that you're also concerned about the extent to
20 which ethnic voices are being heard and being
21 represented in the media.
22 939 So I thought that was kind of
23 interesting, that we should have, you know, similar
24 goals, although my goals are more restricted in that I
25 work with only the Vietnamese Canadian community.
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1 940 Well, now I'll just jump into the
2 questions that were posed, the three questions
3 concerning the extent to which, you know, the
4 broadcasting system adequately services ethnic
5 communities. Questions about access and also
6 developing Canadian ethnocultural services rather than
7 importing foreign material.
8 941 Well, I would have to say that I feel
9 that the extent to which the current broadcasting
10 system serves ethnic communities is not quite adequate.
11 And I find that, particularly I think when it comes to
12 the news, I'll just -- well, it seems to me that the
13 media portrays only, as far as, you know, the
14 Vietnamese community is concerned, most often what we
15 see are only negative aspects of the community that get
16 broadcasted. And as a result, it seems that, you know,
17 that's the way that stereotypes become formed and
18 become perpetuated.
19 942 For example, you know if you turn on
20 the news and the only time that you hear the Vietnamese
21 Canadian community talked about are, you know,
22 reportings of crime and of gangs and problems, then you
23 know, over a period of time, if this is the only
24 images -- these are the only images that you get, then
25 it's understandable to see how stereotypes can develop
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1 about a certain community. And you can see how fear
2 within the mainstream community can get instilled in
3 people, and also a sense of embarrassment and shame may
4 become engrained in the community that has been
5 selected for this type of reporting.
6 943 So anyway, that's -- you know, I
7 think in terms of news reporting, that is something
8 that could be -- that could be changed and certainly
9 can be improved upon.
10 944 Let me just tell you a recent
11 experience that I've had with the news here in
12 Vancouver. You know, at MOSAIC, we recently received a
13 $20,000 grant to do a -- carry out a youth project and
14 you know, before we received this grant, the proposal
15 was brought up in City Council at one of the meetings
16 and because the agenda and also the minutes of City
17 Council meetings are public knowledge, I guess, the
18 media was able to access this. So MOSAIC got a whole
19 bunch of phone calls regarding this youth project and
20 it's interesting, the reaction of the local media
21 concerning this project. And I think it's very telling
22 in a lot of ways, too, because they automatically
23 zeroed in on the fact that -- you know, they said,
24 "Well, you know, we hear that you received this huge
25 grant and to do this project and we understand that you
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1 have a lot of problems, there are a lot of -- you know,
2 there are youth gangs happening everywhere and a lot of
3 crime and drop out" and all this stuff, and it seemed
4 like that was the only thing that they were focusing
5 on.
6 945 And, you know, when they were told
7 that, "Well, actually, you know, this project is --
8 yes, we're looking at child interest and barriers that
9 Vietnamese Canadian youths are facing, but we're also
10 looking at strengths, as well, and we're bringing out
11 really positive aspects of the community and trying to
12 bring that forth so that people become more aware of
13 them." And you know, these reporters were invited to
14 come to the forum which will be happening, you know,
15 later on. And they said -- and at that point, you
16 know, it's, I guess, it no longer is a sensational
17 subject, so anyway, nobody wanted to do a story on us
18 any more.
19 946 So it just goes to show how sometimes
20 we -- sometimes we have our own personal agenda and we
21 would like to portray a community in a certain way and
22 you know, that is harmful, not only to the community
23 concerned, but I think it really is harmful to Canadian
24 society in general because it really -- it distorts the
25 truth about communities. It lets us -- it doesn't let
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1 us see the multifaceted aspect of all communities. And
2 I think that we all stand to lose if that kind of
3 reporting continues.
4 947 So you know, that is simply with the
5 news -- the news media.
6 948 But I also find that with programming
7 that is not news-related, I also find that there is a
8 lack, as well in that I don't see -- I don't see the --
9 my own culture, my own ethnic background being
10 displayed in the media to any satisfactory degree. And
11 I certainly don't see other communities that I would
12 like to find out more about being adequately
13 represented. You know, that's something that I would
14 like to see changed in the future and, you know, I
15 think that it's very much achievable, although it will
16 take some time.
17 949 Next, I'll talk about -- I would like
18 to talk about access. And I find that no concerning --
19 you know, the Vietnamese Canadian community here in
20 Vancouver that there is not adequate access to
21 programming, there's not enough access to -- for people
22 who would like to -- for people who are working in the
23 Vietnamese media, we're being very much -- I think
24 we're being very much limited in terms of how much we
25 can achieve because of lack of funding and the fact
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1 that we have to rely on volunteers to run our programs.
2 950 Let me just tell you about the TV and
3 programs that we do have here in Vancouver.
4 951 It's very interesting how that keeps
5 on ringing.
6 --- Laughter / Rires
7 952 MS PHAM: We have one radio program
8 which is approximately an hour a week. We have three
9 radio programs -- sorry, one TV program that's an hour
10 an week and then we have three radio programs and
11 altogether that's a total of only three hours a week.
12 953 Now, I have to tell you that the TV
13 program, it's actually non-existent at the moment
14 because there's not enough funding -- well, there's no
15 funding. No government funding whatsoever. And the TV
16 program is privately operated and owned.
17 954 I was speaking to the person in
18 charge the other day and he says, "Well, you know,
19 we've had to shut down for a few months because we
20 don't have the money. So we're not sure when we're
21 going to be back on again." But it just goes to show
22 you that there is needs that exist.
23 955 And so altogether four hours of
24 broadcasting for a population, you know, that is
25 approximately 33,000. That's 33,000 Vietnamese
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1 Canadians, approximately, living in the Greater
2 Vancouver area, and only about four hours of
3 programming a week, at best.
4 956 Yeah, it -- needless to say, there's
5 still a long ways to go.
6 957 Next, I'd like to talk about imported
7 services versus Canadian ethnocultural programs
8 developed here in Canada.
9 958 And I would say that ideally
10 priorities should be given to programs that are
11 developed here in Canada, because only such programs
12 can reflect the very current needs of the community and
13 there are a lot of needs that should be addressed, and
14 I find that the local Vietnamese media, as well as the
15 mainstream media could be a real vehicle in public
16 education regarding a whole bunch of community issues.
17 959 But the only thing is that it --
18 needless to say, it costs so much money to produce a
19 radio program and it costs so much more money to
20 produce a quality television program that often I've
21 been told that, you know, for example, the TV program
22 is forced to fall back on imported material to fill up
23 the time. And it's kind of ironic because in some ways
24 we're -- my community's asking for more time and more
25 access to the media and yet, because we don't have the
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1 funding then, now we don't know what to do with the
2 time.
3 960 So it's, I guess it's we're asking
4 for support financially, but also enough of it so that
5 we can carry out -- so that it becomes adequate and so
6 that we can carry out our goals.
7 961 So in terms of recommendations, how
8 to improve the current system, I have to admit that I'm
9 very much -- I'm very much of a novice, I don't know
10 what recommendations I can make having absolutely no
11 experience, really, with any terms of policy, you know,
12 any part of the policy-making process.
13 962 So, I don't know. What can I say,
14 except that -- money, please. More funding and yeah,
15 I -- for community programming and ethnic programming
16 and -- well, I -- that just about wraps it up and I
17 guess to -- just to end my presentation, I guess I
18 would like to say that I really would like to share my
19 dream with you.
20 963 And that is that I would like to one
21 day see down the road in a few years, and I think it's
22 very achievable, I would like to see my community, the
23 Vietnamese Canadian community, as well as other ethnic
24 communities in Canada be represented in a more
25 realistic, more positive manner in the media. And I
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1 would like to have my community, as well as other
2 communities be real partners in the media and not just
3 presented as exotic, quaint or just -- yeah, I'm very
4 wary of being portrayed as an exotic foreigner in
5 Canada, because I think that's really -- what it does
6 is it sets boundaries between people and what it does
7 is it creates an atmosphere of us versus them.
8 964 And I would like to see one day, I
9 would like to have it so that mainstream media is -- or
10 rather -- I'm not sure how to say this adequately, and
11 I don't know how to use the correct term for it,
12 politically. But I would prefer that, you know,
13 caucasians or white people not -- and programming of a
14 mainstream sort not be considered -- not be considered
15 the norm, but rather as, you know, I would like us to
16 work as partners and I would like us to create an
17 environment in which cultures can be shared in a way
18 that promotes interest in other communities, to explore
19 our differences and our diversity.
20 965 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very
21 much. You've been very eloquent and it isn't necessary
22 to give specific recommendations, and we certainly
23 appreciate hearing your views. Thank you.
24 966 MS PHAM: Thank you.
25 967 THE SECRETARY: Do we have any
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1 experience in this room as to how long we might expect
2 those bells to continue?
3 968 MR. JONES: The question is "For whom
4 the bell tolls".
5 --- Laughter / Rires
6 969 THE SECRETARY: Okay. Then we will
7 proceed with our next presenter, who is Marta Gloria
8 Delavega.
9 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
10 970 MS DELAVEGA: Thank you to the
11 members of the Commission for the time and effort,
12 dedicated and to all the people who have presented.
13 971 My name is Marta Gloria Delavega. I
14 work -- I am from Guatemala and work with the Christian
15 Task Force on Central America. And for 15 years, we
16 have been working as an educational ecumenical group,
17 trying to raise awareness about the situation in
18 Central America.
19 972 While doing this kind of work, we
20 have noticed that it will be very helpful if the media,
21 radio, television, and different ways of communication
22 could provide, besides the information that they
23 usually do, education to the different communities and
24 to the -- all the Canadian people. And at the same
25 time, in the ethnic communities, we need to use this
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1 opportunity to educate ourselves about Canada, about
2 indigenous people of North America and to start knowing
3 each other.
4 973 This is particularly important in a
5 Canadian context in which diversity is common in all --
6 in most of the cities, because when different members
7 or different communities or ethnic groups are portrayed
8 only in the negative aspect, usually that instills or
9 brings fear to other people, to other communities. And
10 fear is something very risky in our context. It's
11 risky because we all know that what we fear, we try to
12 destroy.
13 974 There are -- in these times of
14 globalization, there are aspects in which could be very
15 important to educate the public through radio and
16 television.
17 975 For instance, we may take two issues.
18 One is about immigration. Canada is a society made
19 throughout centuries by -- formed by immigrants. And
20 now we are seeing that the immigrants that are coming
21 are being portrayed as -- in different ways as people
22 who take jobs, as persons who benefit from the health
23 system, but we are looking just as to one side of the
24 -- or to one aspect of the whole situation. In very
25 few opportunities, we have seen about the positive
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1 contributions that immigrants make to Canadian society,
2 or about the amount of taxes that are paid by these
3 immigrants or the different types of contributions that
4 could be made.
5 976 It is very important, also, that
6 through the radio and TV there is information and
7 education about the causes and the economic roots of
8 the immigration problem, because it is true that now
9 with the globalization, we need to understand and to
10 try to develop a different relationship north and
11 south. These, we can use as an opportunity.
12 977 When we also talk about the -- I have
13 read about section 3 of the Broadcasting Act and that
14 the Canadian broadcasting system should serve the needs
15 and interests of Canadian men, women and children,
16 including equal rights. And concerning this aspect, it
17 will be also important to talk about what we could call
18 "prevention and education".
19 978 For instance, in the last year or so,
20 we have seen increasingly the issue of child
21 apprehension in ethnic communities. And very little
22 has been said in the radio, either ethnic radio or TV
23 to educate the public about this situation. And these
24 can really affect the harmony that is being looked or
25 tried to achieve in the Canadian society. We are
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1 seeing increasingly affected communities such as
2 Chinese community, Latin American and other ethnic
3 communities with child apprehension. And these, the
4 radio and TV could really help to educate and to make
5 public what are the expectations, what is needed and
6 even though we have seen that may be very few cases in
7 which apprehension may be required, it should be the
8 exception and not the rule.
9 979 I mean, that aspect, we are asking
10 that ways of communication help to prevent deeper
11 conflict and also to prevent the long term effects that
12 apprehension are having on children and to learn from
13 what has happened to indigenous communities here in
14 Canada and how they affect in that community may be
15 repeated several times over with devastating
16 consequences.
17 980 And these are only two issues that we
18 would like to mention.
19 981 Concerning the recommendations, we
20 would like to see youths, the radio and TV and the
21 policy framework asking that ethnic communication also
22 dedicate time to educate about human rights and
23 fundamental freedoms. In issues such as the universal
24 declaration of human rights, the international
25 agreements on economic, social and civil and cultural
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1 rights, as part of fulfilling its social mandate.
2 982 We also would like to see that a
3 special programs, as the second recommendation, that a
4 special programs are directed at children and youth
5 with their participation about issues that are relevant
6 for them. For instance, in education, health,
7 prevention and respect for diversity. We think that
8 it's very important, the inclusion of youth and
9 children in the planning of these programming. And the
10 results could be very encouraging.
11 983 The third recommendation is that a
12 percentage of the programming also should be directed
13 to women's interests and needs. And in their own
14 language.
15 984 The last recommendation is concerning
16 the funding to alternative radio and TV. That it would
17 be important to increase it and in Vancouver, there are
18 few radio stations, for instance, who carry these types
19 of programming and they are always struggling with
20 funding. And in that aspect, cross-cultural
21 information, education and referrals and activities,
22 could help us to avoid future conflict and also to have
23 a more rich and peaceful society.
24 985 Thank you.
25 986 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
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1 987 THE SECRETARY: Our next presenter
2 this evening is Sikandar Azam.
3 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
4 988 MR. AZAM: Madame Chair and members
5 of the CRTC, ladies and gentlemen, good evening.
6 989 My name is Sikandar Azam, and I came
7 to Canada about 23 years ago, now I'm a Canadian
8 citizen and I'm from Fiji Islands.
9 990 Frankly speaking, I did not prepare
10 anything, I came as an audience, but I'm just trying to
11 fill in the slot for somebody and what I'm trying to
12 give my views here, is actually coming from my heart
13 and I have had concerns for a long time, and this is
14 the best opportunity I've heard to air my views right
15 now.
16 991 I have my own business, and I come in
17 contact with lots of Canadians in the Lower Mainland,
18 so I have a fair knowledge of what they think of us.
19 992 I belong to Fiji Muslim Association
20 which comprises of something like 80,000 here in the
21 Lower Mainland. And frankly speaking, there is nothing
22 whatsoever in the media, especially on multicultural
23 channel that says anything about the Fiji Muslim
24 Association.
25 993 As you all know, there are 1.2
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1 billion Muslims all over the world and there's not a
2 day that goes by that in the world media, of CNN and
3 other, there's something about Muslims that is either
4 negative or positive, but there is always about Muslims
5 all over the world. So understanding about Muslims is
6 a very important aspect of our life here, whether we be
7 Canadians or whether we be ethnic group or whatever.
8 994 To understand us is to get some
9 education and that's the best way to know what it's all
10 about. If you want to know something positive, you got
11 to understand what they're talking about, not what the
12 media presents.
13 995 Media is a very, very strong weapon,
14 whether it can make it or break it. So most of the
15 time, I hear news over the air, news in the TV and I'm
16 appalled at what they're trying to say.
17 996 What I'm trying to say here is
18 specifically channel 20 provided by Rogers Cable, now
19 this channel has at least, I would say, Fijian -- three
20 different Fijian programming by three different
21 associations. This is all lopsided, one sided and
22 there is nothing whatsoever about anything about
23 Muslims from Fiji. It says it's a channel -- it's a
24 Fijian program. But frankly speaking, I'm appalled at
25 what I see, because that is the channel or that is -- I
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1 have some friends, my neighbours who are Croatians
2 Canadians, Chinese, they watch all those programs and
3 they say, "What's going on? Is that what where you
4 come from?" That doesn't give a right picture of what
5 we are. Fiji is supposed to be the paradise of the
6 Pacific and that's what the image should be. Not what
7 is portrayed by these channels that we see.
8 997 So I'm really appalled. Actually, I
9 was talking to Shushma who represents RimJhim Radio
10 Station and I was very pleased to see that there was a
11 big flood and she did a marvellous job collecting --
12 raising money for the Fiji Disaster Fund, and those are
13 the kinds of things we need in TV, which is
14 non-existent at this time.
15 998 So what I'm trying to say is we need
16 a cross-section, we need a balanced programming in our
17 multicultural society, multicultural channels so that
18 we have a fair knowledge of what goes on and where we
19 are, where we come from, we can feel proud of; not by
20 watching those appalling programs which is lopsided and
21 many times meaningless.
22 999 I have -- I go and see my customers
23 in the Lower Mainland who happen to be basically
24 Canadians and many a time, they offer me, say, coffee
25 and I say, "No, it's my fasting month. No." They say,
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1 "Fasting? You go hungry?", I say, "Yes, from dawn to
2 dusk." So fasting is not, fasting or Ramadan is not
3 just going hungry, there's so many aspects of it.
4 There's a how, respect, moral, there's a charity,
5 there's so many. After I explain to them for 15
6 minutes, they're so pleased, they say, "Can we do
7 something like this?" I say, "Most certainly, because
8 there is so many merits behind it".
9 1000 So what I found there is a need of
10 education. You have to educate, you have -- you have
11 to -- and the best way of education is by media, by
12 television, by radio. And here we are lacking all
13 those things in a very, very bad way. And there's a
14 great need to do something about it.
15 1001 I will not go any further because I
16 think -- I'm just sharing these thoughts with somebody
17 here and I'll just conclude here. All I'll say is we
18 should -- I mean, I'd request the members of the CRTC
19 to look what I have to say here, frankly speaking, the
20 population of the Muslims in Canada right now, across
21 the board, is about half a million. In ten years' time
22 it will be a million. So we should be about one-third
23 of the population of Canada and there is a need to
24 know, especially when you have 1.2 billion Muslims
25 across the world, to know what it's all about and you
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1 hear of them.
2 1002 So my request is there's a time, we
3 need more slot -- not really need more slot, actually
4 there's no slot at all right now. And I'm very pleased
5 with the programming back in east and that's all -- any
6 program that's done in Toronto is done so well and I'm
7 afraid why the same situation cannot exist here in
8 Lower Mainland, which does not exist at all. And they
9 have excellent programming up there. Some Islamic or
10 Muslim programs and it's well done. Over here is
11 basically nil. And I would certainly like to see,
12 personally, that we have more programming, something of
13 the same situation as what is done in Toronto so that
14 will serve our community.
15 1003 Thank you.
16 1004 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very
17 much.
18 1005 THE SECRETARY: I'd now like to
19 invite John Nurany to make his presentation.
20 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
21 1006 MR. NURANY: Madame Chair and members
22 of the Commission. My name is John Nurany and I'm a
23 businessman by profession and I'm of South Asian
24 origin, being born and brought up in Kenya and
25 immigrated to Canada 25 years ago.
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1 1007 I also have the privilege of serving
2 in some of the Community Service Boards. I sit on the
3 Board of Family Services of Greater Vancouver and the
4 Michael J. Fox Theatre, and I also am the President of
5 the Rotary Club in Burnaby.
6 1008 What we are hearing tonight across
7 the room here, I think there is a cry for sharing
8 culture, for getting more voice, getting more time on
9 television, with the sole purpose of not just enjoying
10 the entertainment, but also educating the different
11 ethnic groups.
12 1009 The issues you are discussing today
13 are to what extent does the present broadcasting system
14 adequately serve Canada's ethnoculture communities.
15 Second, given the demographic changes that have taken
16 place in Canada, how can the needs and the interests of
17 the ethnocultural communities continue to be served.
18 And finally, should there be a priority on the
19 development of Canadian ethnocultural services, rather
20 than importing foreign services.
21 1010 To deal with the first issue, whether
22 the present system adequately serves Canada's
23 ethnocultural communities, I would like to suggest that
24 whilst they do meet a need, there is certainly room for
25 more access and broader based programming.
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1 1011 The third language programs have
2 become a great source of communicating with the
3 minority groups and this medium should contain elements
4 of understanding Canada and its virtues.
5 1012 The entertainment aspect and
6 identification with ethnicity is well served with these
7 programs. It is my opinion that whilst these programs
8 should continue, they should strive to broaden the base
9 and attempt to have an inclusive approach.
10 1013 The second point, given the
11 demographic changes that have taken place in Canada,
12 how can the needs and interests of the ethnocultural
13 communities continue to be served.
14 1014 I would like to propose that a new
15 dimension should be added whereby the third language
16 programs should have a good portion of local events and
17 to discuss and educate about Canadian values and
18 lifestyle.
19 1015 I'll give you a brief example of what
20 I have seen and witnessed in course of my community
21 services in the last few weeks. There is a family that
22 I visited that lived in an apartment that was dark.
23 And upon questioning, we found out that they felt that
24 in order to change the bulb, they had to ask the
25 landlord. And they did not know who the landlord was,
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1 so they were just living in dark.
2 1016 The second example of a family that
3 we took out grocery shopping and when we went back, we
4 asked him to put away the groceries and we left.
5 --- Technical difficulties / Problèmes techniques
6 1017 MR. NURANY: This is the darkness
7 that I'm talking about.
8 --- Laughter / Rires
9 1018 MR. NURANY: If I may continue.
10 1019 We left them there and came back the
11 next day to find out if everything was okay. We
12 noticed that the meat was sitting out on the counter,
13 while the cans of vegetables and fruits were sitting in
14 the freezer. They thought that the freezer was a
15 cupboard.
16 1020 Now, these are different ethnic
17 background people, the immigrants who come to this
18 country and have no way of finding out the Canadian
19 lifestyle.
20 1021 Television is a great medium, not
21 only for dispensing and disseminating ethnic cultural
22 values, it is also to address and educate the
23 immigrants that are coming to this country. And with
24 that in view, the communities should be accorded the
25 facilities to produce and be given the opportunity to
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1 learn about media presentation.
2 1022 New channels should be dedicated with
3 longer time to be able to do proper justice to
4 programming. The new reality of changing demography
5 must be considered, perhaps we should look at the
6 methods of bringing a better understanding of each
7 other's cultures and languages.
8 1023 The programs should be developed
9 whereby it is not attracting only the specialty group,
10 but which can also be enjoyed by all with the
11 opportunity to learn perhaps a new language.
12 1024 As diversity continues to grow, less
13 and less time will be accorded to community
14 programming. I suggest that more channels should be
15 assigned for ethnic broadcasting and one of the
16 astonishing factors that I see in ethnic programs that
17 are presently available in broadcast, it is amazing to
18 see that there is nothing that exists for aboriginal
19 communities in Canada. I think this should be an issue
20 and a note that the CRTC should closely examine.
21 1025 With regard to the third point of
22 whether there should be priority on the development of
23 Canadian ethnocultural services rather than importing
24 foreign services, I would like to say that a good
25 balance should be achieved between the two. Whilst it
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1 is important for entertainment perspective to use
2 foreign service, it is also important to develop
3 Canadian service. The latter will offer enormous
4 opportunity for creativity and development of
5 resources.
6 1026 As we move into a more enduring and
7 tolerant society, it is important that we show
8 responsibility in the quality of programming. The
9 development of Canadian ethnocultural service should be
10 considered the requirement of high quality.
11 1027 We've only talked about specifically
12 the ethnic dedicated programming. I would like also to
13 suggest that in the mainstream Canadian reporting and
14 programming, we should encourage more ethnic content.
15 The news channels should cover more of the
16 international news with relevance to changing
17 demography.
18 1028 The ethnic content must not be
19 allowed to be appropriated. The culture and art should
20 be exposed from the eyes and voices of the ethnic
21 members. The danger of appropriation should be
22 avoided. The mainstream culture and art should reach
23 out and afford the facility for ethnic involvement.
24 The example of late singer musician and composer,
25 Nostratali (ph) who achieved enrichment by bringing
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1 South Asian flavour to western music is a classic point
2 in question. The sharing of culture and art should be
3 a pleasant experience and not a reluctant effort.
4 1029 Finally, let me reiterate what must
5 have been said several times before, that the power of
6 television is unmitigated and it is for us to ensure
7 that this very substantial and influential tool is
8 appropriately used to serve us well.
9 1030 Thank you for listening.
10 1031 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr.
11 Nurany.
12 1032 THE SECRETARY: Our next presenter is
13 Gabriel Yiu.
14 1900
15 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
16 1033 MR. YIU: Madame Chair, members of
17 the Commission, ladies and gentlemen.
18 1034 Good evening. My name is Gabriel
19 Yiu, I'm an immigrant from Hong Kong and right now I'm
20 a businessman and an independent commentator.
21 1035 I was talk show host on current
22 affairs in Chinese radio for three years, and I was
23 also a current affairs columnist for a Chinese
24 newspaper. Right now, I'm a columnist for business in
25 Vancouver, a regular contributor to the Vancouver Sun
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1 and director of the B.C. Newspaper Foundation.
2 1036 My contribution in the media is
3 recognized by the City of Vancouver with an award
4 called Cultural Harmony Award.
5 1037 Section 3(d)(iii) of the Broadcasting
6 Act states that:
7 "... the Canadian broadcasting
8 system should serve the needs
9 and interests and reflect the
10 circumstances and aspirations of
11 Canadian men, women and
12 children, including equal
13 rights, the linguistic duality
14 and multicultural and
15 multiracial nature of Canadian
16 society."
17 1038 Although the CRTC ethnic programming
18 requires the broadcasting system, that is mainstream
19 and also ethnic media alike, to serve and reflect the
20 multicultural and multiracial nature of Canadian
21 society, the fact is that only the ethnic media which
22 target particular ethnic groups truly serve the ethnic
23 minorities.
24 1039 We have, indeed, in recent years,
25 seen some ethnic faces in mainstream media. But as it
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1 regards to themes, reporting angle, advertising and
2 policies, the needs and interests of ethnocultural
3 communities are neither reflected nor catered to. When
4 one looks at the print media, the Vancouver Sun has
5 done a much better job in covering news of ethnic
6 groups and that of the Pacific Rim.
7 1040 Ethnic media depends on the
8 commercial markets and services of ethnic groups and so
9 aim to serve the groups on which the markets and
10 services in turn depend.
11 1041 Consider the Chinese language media.
12 With the rapid increase in population of Chinese
13 immigrants over the past ten years, the Chinese media
14 as a whole, both visual and print, have expanded in
15 production volume to a point that rivals that of the
16 English media. In truth, the Chinese media form a
17 system in itself, no longer the several-hours-a-week
18 fair it was before, and outrank the media of other
19 ethnic groups.
20 1042 When one looks at the functions
21 performed by the Chinese media, it is fair to say that
22 they have played a significant role in sustaining
23 Chinese traditions and the Chinese language, supplying
24 daily information on community events and
25 entertainment, supporting Chinese charity associations
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1 and cultivating a sense of community. Moreover, it has
2 assisted in the formation of a commercial market around
3 the Chinese community. All these are palatable
4 achievements, and credit must go to the Chinese media.
5 1043 Because the Chinese media have a
6 direct and definite influence on the development of
7 Chinese community, any new broadcasting policy which
8 has an effect on them should also meet the interests of
9 the society and the nation at large.
10 1044 In controlling the mainstream media,
11 CRTC's concern is to maintain Canadian content as a way
12 of bolstering Canadian culture. The primary goal is to
13 resist the dominance of U.S. culture. In regard to
14 ethnic media, CRTC's policy is:
15 "... intended to encourage the
16 growth and development of ethnic
17 programming in Canada, to assist
18 in ensuring that culturally and
19 racially distinct groups receive
20 broadcasting services and to
21 enhance the variety and broaden
22 the scope of the Canadian
23 broadcasting system."
24 1045 The goal is to maintain ethnic
25 traditional culture and its link, cultural and
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1 linguistic, with the place of origin. While there is a
2 fear of acculturation by the U.S., there is little sign
3 of fear of the ghettoization of ethnic peoples and
4 cultures.
5 1046 Although the Chinese media is also
6 subject to the criterion of Canadian content, the
7 effect of this criterion on this operation is quite
8 different. Take radio as an example. The Cancon can
9 be satisfied by including so many Canadian songs, but
10 talk radio does not have to be by or about Canadians.
11 So Chinese radios can have massive programs on current
12 affairs, history, culture and entertainment on China,
13 Hong Kong or Taiwan.
14 1047 Even television programs produced
15 locally, say those about Chinese traditions, may not be
16 linked to Canada or help audience in understanding
17 Canada. Just as Canadian TV viewers often want U.S.
18 sitcoms in prime time spots, so Chinese Canadian quite
19 often like to view Hong Kong programs (even Hong Kong
20 produced current affairs programs) at prime time
21 instead of late at night. Chinese TV stations
22 regularly get requests for moving late-night imported
23 programs to replace local production in the prime time.
24 1048 The Chinese broadcasts are, for the
25 majority of immigrants, the only cultural product
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1 consumed regularly. Chinese programs, therefore, should
2 take up the role of assisting viewers to understand
3 society and to bridge the cultural divides.
4 1049 If we look at Chinese media news
5 production, we see a product of a reasonable standard,
6 and one that centres round happenings in Canada. But
7 there is not enough analysis of events that could have
8 profound effect on Chinese Canadians. Such events are
9 of weekly, if not daily, occurrence; whether to set up
10 traditional schools, the book ban in Surrey, reform of
11 the immigration and refugee policies, et cetera. Yet
12 these are merely reported on, and we get little
13 in-depth analysis from a fresh viewpoint.
14 1050 If we look at resource-rich
15 mainstream media, there are likewise few discerning
16 reports of the impingement of the values of
17 multiculturalism on social issues. And few are
18 programs that depict multicultural communities.
19 1051 In view of the rapid demographic
20 changes in the last ten years as well as the challenges
21 of new technology, the renewed evaluation of CRTC of
22 its direction is a timely manner.
23 1052 The fact is, the Internet has brought
24 with it tremendous change to the Chinese media. Hong
25 Kong newspapers and editorials are now freely available
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1 to net browsers. Hong Kong radios can be tuned into
2 hourly. Satellite TV broadcast, and in the future,
3 digitalized high-capacity channels will be easily
4 accessible. The Chinese media see themselves as under
5 threat.
6 1053 One form the threat takes is in the
7 area of cost, specifically salaries. Take the TV
8 station run by the same company with two channels --
9 one Cantonese serving immigrants from Hong Kong and
10 South China, one Mandarin channel serving those from
11 China and Taiwan. The salaries of its employees are
12 about half those of their English counterparts. In
13 other words, they can survive because of lower cost.
14 Once more channels are open, competition will reduce
15 income and the station might not be viable. And the
16 downturn in the Asian economy has left local Chinese
17 economy gasping for air.
18 1054 There is a parallel between the
19 Canadian media and the local Chinese media: both are
20 under threat from imported products, one from the U.S.,
21 the other from Hong Kong. The Chinese media here is of
22 course on a much smaller scale. Still, if there is
23 going to be more programs from outside Canada, then
24 even though the audience may have a wider range of
25 choice, local Chinese productions and its quality will
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1 decline, and that will not be conducive to a clearer
2 sense of Canadian identity.
3 1055 Multiculturalism can be a tool to
4 help immigrants adapt to the large community, but it
5 can also promote multi-ethnocentrism. What is certain
6 is that for multiculturalism to succeed in Canada and
7 to achieve a harmonious inclusive society, ethnic
8 media, as well as mainstream media, has a crucial role
9 to play.
10 1056 Thank you.
11 1057 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Yiu.
12 1058 THE SECRETARY: Our next presenter
13 this evening is Magnus Thyvold.
14 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
15 1059 MR. THYVOLD: Welcome, Madame
16 Chairman, and thank you for having me here today.
17 1060 My name is Magnus Thyvold, I
18 represent the National Campus & Community Radio
19 Association. The NCRA is an association representing
20 campus and community stations across Canada, largely in
21 English Canada.
22 1061 In Public Notice 1998-135, the CRTC
23 asked the question:
24 "Do campus and community radio
25 stations have a significant role
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1 to play in providing programming
2 to targeted ethnic groups?"
3 1062 The answer to this question is "yes".
4 Campus and community stations across the country, in
5 almost every case, have multicultural programming of
6 some kind. This takes the form of a variety of third
7 language and mixed language programs. In almost every
8 case, these are generated from and serving local
9 communities. These programs provide an important
10 service to their communities.
11 1063 Also, in the Public Notice, the CRTC
12 asked:
13 "Should campus and community
14 stations be authorized to
15 provide more ethnic programming
16 without authorization?"
17 1064 Namely, should -- I interpret that to
18 mean that should the limit on ethnic programming for
19 non-ethnic stations, at least in the case of campus and
20 community radio stations be raised? And the answer, I
21 feel is that this limit should be raised to at least 20
22 percent. Many speakers who have spoken here this
23 evening have made the point that there is not enough
24 ethnic programming available and I think steps to make
25 more opportunities available for ethnic programming are
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1 desirable.
2 1065 The 15 percent limit on ethnic
3 programming on non-ethnic radio stations, as defined by
4 the CRTC, is intended to keep those stations from
5 impinging on the market segment of ethnic stations and
6 perhaps threatening the viability of those stations.
7 The programming offered by campus and community
8 stations differs in many ways from that presented by
9 ethnic radio stations.
10 1066 Campus and community stations are
11 located in many communities across Canada. Most of
12 these are not served by an existing ethnic station. In
13 many communities, campus and community -- ethnic
14 programming provided by campus and community stations
15 represents the only availability of such programming in
16 that community.
17 1067 Furthermore, ethnic programming on
18 campus and community radio stations is created by
19 members of the local community and is targeted
20 specifically at the local community. Virtually no
21 station across the country, that I'm aware of, imports
22 either from outside of their community or from an
23 international community, except in very limited cases,
24 its ethnic programming. It is provided by volunteers
25 from the community who are often very involved in their
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1 communities, not only at the radio station, but in a
2 number of different community organizations that are
3 often well-known within their communities.
4 1068 News and information about local
5 events and activities are a major part of the
6 programming provided. In addition, students and even
7 international students are involved in ethnic
8 programming on campus and community stations. Because
9 of the importance of community information on these
10 programs, they often feature a higher level of spoken
11 word content than is typical of many commercial ethnic
12 stations.
13 1069 Furthermore, because ethnic
14 programming on a campus and community station is
15 justified on the basis of an identified community need
16 rather than the potential for ad revenue, many ethnic
17 groups are able to be served -- are able to be served
18 or would be -- sorry. Many ethnic groups are able to
19 be served that would be ignored by the regular
20 commercial media, which is to say, the regular
21 commercial medium, besides ethnic media, also has a
22 role to play in providing ethnic programming, but for
23 many of those -- many of those media outlets, they only
24 provide ethnic programming where there is a potential
25 for advertising to offset the cost, because it's not
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1 their central mandate.
2 1070 This, for the most part, isn't an
3 issue for campus and community radio and its largely
4 volunteer-based programming. So that it is able to
5 serve many communities that are smaller or perhaps too
6 small to be served by the commercial media.
7 1071 Generally speaking, ad revenue
8 generated through campus and community ethnic
9 programming is not large by community radio standards
10 and should not be considered a threat to commercial
11 ethnic radio ventures. Ethnic radio programming is a
12 very important part and a very important means by which
13 campus and community radio stations reflect the
14 communities they serve, including their ethnocultural
15 diversity.
16 1072 Additionally, because campus and
17 community serve so many, sometimes smaller
18 communities -- sometimes smaller ethnic communities
19 within their communities, and in almost -- certainly in
20 my personal experience, they almost always would like
21 more time than they have, one hour a week isn't very
22 much to try and cover the many issues and events going
23 on in a community and they're always asking for more.
24 1073 The answer, I think would be, a good
25 idea to raise that 15 percent limit to at least 20
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1 percent, perhaps even more, depending on how that
2 impacts on other issues. So that it is easier for
3 campus and community stations and they're provided more
4 flexibility to serve these communities without having
5 to resort to requesting an exemption order from the
6 CRTC.
7 1074 We would also like to see the
8 recognition that ethnic programming on campus and
9 community radio is complementary to that provided by
10 other ethnic services, including ethnic radio stations,
11 the ability to -- of campus and community stations to
12 provide programming for ethnic communities should be
13 protected and guaranteed. And by that, I'm referring
14 just to the potential for commercial ethnic stations to
15 make the case that ethnic programming on a community
16 station and the advertising that it generates, which is
17 never terribly large, threatens their ability to
18 generate revenue.
19 1075 I don't believe that's true and I
20 think the services provided to campus and community
21 stations is very much complementary to that provided by
22 commercial ethnic stations. And particularly the very
23 strong, local community focus that these programs have,
24 is an important service.
25 1076 The one other issue I'd like to
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1 address is Canadian content. Ethnic programmers on our
2 stations across the country have found it very
3 difficult to get access to sufficient amounts of
4 Canadian content ethnic programming. It's very easy to
5 get -- or not programming, sorry, music. It's very
6 easy to get ethnic music of all sorts, but it is quite
7 difficult to get ethnic music on recording produced
8 here in Canada, and I think in the new ethnic policy, I
9 think some action needs to be taken to address that
10 issue, whether -- probably I would think mainly through
11 some means of providing greater support to ethnic music
12 artists through such venues as Factor or Music Action,
13 with particular attention to product distribution and
14 providing resources to artists to help them get their
15 music out and across Canada.
16 1077 Thank you very much.
17 1078 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I think
18 Commissioner Cardozo has a question.
19 1079 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you,
20 Madame Chair.
21 1080 Mr. Thyvold, I just had a question
22 about the last point you were making and that is access
23 to Canadian-made music from ethnic minority artists.
24 1081 You're aware of Factor or Music
25 Action, which is, for people who may not be aware of
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1 it, it's a program that is jointly funded by the
2 Federal Government and radio stations who by a small
3 amount of money -- I shouldn't say "small", but a
4 certain amount of money, back into production of new
5 Canadian music in general, just to try and encourage
6 Canadian artists, especially new artists and -- as
7 opposed to the more famous ones, who are usually
8 commercially successful in their own right.
9 1082 We have raised some questions with
10 them and they certainly have started, over the last
11 couple of years, to diversify the kind of artists who
12 are getting funded. And what they do is fund artists
13 who have either not had a record or I think, had one or
14 two records, I'm not sure of the exact criteria. So
15 they have begun to fund and support artists from
16 minority communities.
17 1083 I'm just wondering to what extent you
18 are aware that campus radios do have access to the
19 music that they produce, because essentially what they
20 do is they produce this music and I understand they
21 send it free to radio stations to -- as promotions to
22 pick up from them. And I'm wondering to what extent
23 campus radio stations have access to that music?
24 1084 MR. THYVOLD: It still is very much a
25 problem reported by our programmers that it is
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1 difficult to get a hold of it. I think part of it is,
2 while in some cases it's out there, it's hard to find
3 or track down.
4 1085 You know, it's great if there's a
5 small label in Toronto that's putting out some stuff,
6 but if a programmer or my music director at my station
7 isn't aware of it, I think that's as much a problem and
8 that's why, you know, I made reference to distribution
9 and various resources that could help the various
10 producers of this music, a) make people aware of it,
11 make stations aware of it. And I don't know whether
12 that requires perhaps some sort of centralized resource
13 or web site or whatever, that sort of is like a
14 clearing house for that sort of information, because --
15 but that's, I think, often, you know, as much the
16 problem as whether the music actually exists even.
17 1086 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you.
18 1087 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
19 1088 THE SECRETARY: Our next presenter is
20 Mohammed Koya.
21 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
22 1089 MR. KOYA: Madame Chair, members of
23 the CRTC, ladies and gentlemen. Good evening.
24 1090 I'm from the Fiji Islands and I've
25 been in this country for the last 23 years. And in the
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1 present I'm a self-employed businessman, as a food
2 broker.
3 1091 And 99.9 percent of my customers are
4 all Canadians. And sometimes we do sit down, have
5 coffee and it has been brought to my attention about
6 our ethnic backgrounds and in discussions it comes out
7 that by my name, my first name is Mohammed, it's
8 obvious that anybody who hears this name will say that
9 I'm a Muslim.
10 1092 There are sometimes when people are
11 misguided, especially in the western world, in North
12 America. To the best of my knowledge, these misguiding
13 informations are being given by most of the news media,
14 papers, which gives the wrong impression to the public.
15 1093 Madame Chairperson, in order to get
16 this kind of problems solved, it is my request, a
17 humble request, that if the Commission will consider
18 putting some kind of problem in the multicultural
19 situation so that the entire community can understand
20 what our Islam is.
21 1094 Basically, when we say "Islam", it
22 means that peace, harmony. We are in this country
23 about 80,000 Muslims live in B.C. and I'm proud to be a
24 member of the B.C. Muslim Association in B.C. and we
25 have branches all over B.C. and I represent as the
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1 Director of the Burnaby branch of the Muslim
2 Association.
3 1095 We have a plan right now in Burnaby
4 to accommodate people of all the -- all the races so
5 that we can propagate what is the actual meaning of
6 "Islam". Like, we see in the news media most of the
7 time, anytime anything happens in this world, a bomb
8 takes place or a plane is hijacked or some kind of
9 unnatural disaster happens without any questions asked,
10 it is the first blame to the Muslims.
11 1096 As a matter of fact, I have my best
12 customer in Langley and they are Christians. As a
13 matter of fact, they have even asked me, "Why you guys
14 are sitting down? Why are you sitting down? How come
15 you people can't oppose this?" We have political
16 qualified people in our community who can sit down with
17 the CRTC, give the full explanation of our religion.
18 If this takes place, there will be no, what do you
19 call, differences between the Muslims and non-Muslims
20 all over the world.
21 1097 And besides that, Madame Chairperson,
22 we, as immigrants, we've came here, work hard and this
23 will be our permanent residence here in B.C. or in
24 Canada, and we love to follow the culture, the
25 traditions and abide by the rules of the country. And
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1 the only way we are succeeding is that at home, we're
2 the parents, we have discipline in our house. When we
3 send our children to school, we tell them what is
4 right, what is wrong, go to school straight, no
5 smoking, don't talk to strangers, don't take anything,
6 don't steal. And quite a lot when they came home we
7 asked them questions, "What happened?" Sometimes the
8 answer is negative, sometimes positive.
9 1098 And in order to what you call, get
10 the ethnic information to the public, if this kind of
11 problems are in the, what do you call, cablevision, it
12 will be advantage to most of the ethnic community.
13 1099 Apart from this, Madame Chairperson,
14 there are some other kinds of laws the ethnic community
15 don't understand. For example, I say, like if I was in
16 Fiji and if I had been stopped by a cop there,
17 immediately I can get out of my car and start talking
18 to the cop. But whereas in this country, you cannot.
19 As soon as I get out of the car, the gun is at my head.
20 I don't blame the cop.
21 1100 As a matter of fact, I had a friend
22 who came from -- all the way from Vietnam, a
23 businessman, and we were driving around and I was
24 stopped. And this gentleman, poor guy, he didn't know
25 the rules and thus he got out and he was handcuffed. I
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1 had to, what do you call, beg the cop, "He's a
2 newcomer, he'll be going away within the next couple of
3 days and he's my guest and I request to release him."
4 "Oh, no. He got out of the car." The reason why he
5 got out of the car so he could ask, what happened.
6 That's what they do there.
7 1101 And in my opinion, like, if once a
8 month or once every two months if some kind of program
9 has been kept in the, what do you call, ethnic channel
10 with the police department, people would understand how
11 to recall, talk with the cops or what is the procedure
12 to be followed when you are stopped by a cop.
13 1102 Similarly in what do you call,
14 travelling all over the places, if you go somewhere in
15 the country, travelling is very hard. But here, it's
16 very simple. It is very simple. We've got all kinds
17 of transportation here. All kinds of transportation.
18 Nothing at home. We cannot complain about that.
19 1103 And basically, when we are in this
20 province, when we do some parking, we have problems.
21 People want to fight. Mostly, like with ethnic people.
22 And this kind of information should be got to, what do
23 you call, public, how to behave or show some kind of
24 encouragement so that they can go and take, what do you
25 call, videotape and play it in what you call, ethnic
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1 program. People, they are not aware how to drive or
2 how to, what do you call, go to the spot, from Point A
3 to Point B. It is quite clear to them. This will
4 avoid some problems.
5 1930
6 1104 In conclusion, ladies and gentlemen,
7 and Madame Chair, I'm sorry, When I was talking about
8 that we, as Muslims, in all of the world, are peaceful
9 people, if this CRTC later on need any kind of help
10 from our Association, which is B.C. Muslim Association,
11 we will never hesitate to come and talk, sit down and
12 give our 100 percent view about Islam.
13 1105 Apart from this, there are lots of
14 things which we are doing, like normally there are two
15 kinds of things when we do, sometimes when we do some
16 kind of favour or help, when we give from this hand, we
17 don't pay out of this hand. But then again, in order
18 to let the public know, especially a place like this,
19 it's no harm. Like, we, as Muslims, we've just
20 finished what is called our "month of holy Momra" (ph)
21 and this was the time, like, once a year, when each and
22 every Muslim, after all the expenses paid and if there
23 is any surplus money left over, including the gold, we
24 have to, it's a must, give donation or charity, two and
25 a half percent.
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1 1106 (Indiscernible, not English) when
2 pleased to let the CRTC know that, and the ladies and
3 gentlemen here, that we have done a very wonderful job
4 for the last ten years. We are doing that and we are
5 not just giving to our Muslim, we also have to
6 (indiscernible, not English), as long as we get our
7 proper record and we go and visit the homes and we look
8 after them.
9 1107 Hopefully I got my message, Madame
10 Chairperson, and once again, I would like to thank you
11 and if there's any question, I'd be glad to answer
12 them.
13 1108 Thank you.
14 1109 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr.
15 Koya. Yes, you did get your message across. Thank
16 you.
17 1110 THE SECRETARY: Our next presenter
18 this evening is Scott MacRae.
19 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
20 1111 MR. MacRAE: Madame Chair, members of
21 the Commission, ladies and gentlemen.
22 1112 My name is Scott MacRae, I'm a
23 communications consultant and was recently Director of
24 Communications at the City of Vancouver. Prior to
25 that, I worked in as a print media journalist in
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1 Vancouver for 20 years.
2 1113 My perspective on third language and
3 ethnic programming is a mainstream one, English is my
4 only language and so my remarks are from a very
5 personal viewpoint.
6 1114 While I was at the City of Vancouver,
7 I had the opportunity to work with a variety of ethnic
8 news media in our region. My knowledge was very low
9 when I began to survey local media, ethnic media, five
10 years ago. I think my ignorance was probably typical
11 of both mainstream people in general and mainstream
12 media people in particular. I think things have
13 changed.
14 1115 What I've seen over the last half
15 dozen years is a thriving and vital ethnic news media
16 that, to address why we're here this evening, the
17 region's television menu simply doesn't reflect.
18 Perhaps Commissioners already know a little about the
19 fortunes of the dominant ethnic media in the region,
20 the Chinese language press.
21 1116 Here we have three large overseas
22 chains printing daily newspapers with local content in
23 the Lower Mainland. Two of these chains have made
24 major capital investments in state-of-the-art printing
25 plants with full colour capability. The mainstream
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1 daily press here hasn't seen this diversity of
2 viewpoints for decades.
3 1117 The effects of Chinese print media
4 are equally remarkable. I'd like to mention two of
5 them that I saw. One of them affects is involving
6 newcomers to Canada and also the effects that this
7 increasingly visible media have on the mainstream
8 community.
9 1118 I have to say that I've been
10 impressed with the task that Chinese language reporters
11 and editors have set themselves and how seriously they
12 perform that task.
13 1119 Again, from my own personal
14 experience, if you go to a City Council meeting in the
15 City of Vancouver on a Tuesday afternoon, take a look
16 over at the press table, often there are more
17 representatives from the Chinese media than from the
18 mainstream media. Why? Well, if you ask Chinese
19 language reporters, they'll tell you it's because their
20 readers, many of whom are newcomers, have a real
21 interest in what's going on in the community they chose
22 to live in. This can hardly be a surprise.
23 1120 I recall being a guest on a Chinese
24 language radio call-in program, the topic was property
25 taxes. Hardly a sexy subject. Yet the lines were
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1 jammed with hard incisive questions from highly
2 knowledgeable members of the audience. Even a
3 non-Chinese speaker could relate the level of interest
4 to the Chinese language media coverage. It's all those
5 reporters showing up on Tuesday afternoons.
6 1121 How could I know what's being written
7 in the Chinese language media if I don't speak Chinese?
8 Well, the City of Vancouver translates all Chinese
9 newspaper stories about its activities, and from my
10 reading of those translations, it's clear that the
11 major City government issues are covered in a very
12 professional way.
13 1122 In some cases, the Chinese press
14 coverage is more comprehensive than that of the
15 mainstream media. Chinese print media has reached
16 something of a critical mass in the Lower Mainland in
17 some ways. If you go into a suburban shopping mall,
18 you'll see stacks of "Ming Pow" and "Sing Tso" next to
19 the Sun and the Province and other mainstream
20 newspapers. If you go to a major news event in town,
21 you'll see Chinese reporters standing next to their
22 mainstream counterparts.
23 1123 And I think because of this kind of
24 critical mass, we're starting to get an interplay
25 between the Chinese language and the mainstream media.
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1 And this interplay is sort of inevitably leads to
2 dialogue.
3 1124 For example, a few years ago, it may
4 have been two or three years ago, I'm not sure when,
5 Ming Pow ran a story about mainstream perceptions of
6 the Chinese community. Thorny issues were raised about
7 how one culture's good manners could be questionable to
8 another culture. The issue was hotly debated in the
9 Chinese community and the debate spilled over into the
10 pages of the Vancouver Sun.
11 1125 Not long afterward and in no way
12 related to the above, racist graffiti incidents that
13 had alluded mainstream media scrutiny were extensively
14 reported in the Chinese press. To the extent that they
15 were eventually brought to the mainstream media's
16 attention.
17 1126 Nowadays, and Gabriel has more than
18 hinted at this, that the Vancouver Sun runs regular
19 ethnic press digests and translated letters to the
20 editor of Ming Pow. These activities promote cultural
21 harmony by opening a media window into communities,
22 their concerns, their issues, their leaders and so on.
23 And really validate the need for media diversity.
24 1127 For several years now, Chinese
25 reporters have offered their best work for judging in
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1 the Jack Webster Work Journalism Awards. These awards
2 are, of course, named after another newcomer to Canada
3 from an earlier wave of immigration.
4 1128 The Chinese community, although the
5 largest, isn't by the only means the -- isn't by any
6 means, the only ethnic community well-served by its
7 media. The East Asian community boasts a number of
8 publications in English and other languages, including
9 a high quality monthly magazine, "Mephil" (ph), that is
10 as well produced, topical and relevant as any
11 periodical on today's newsstands.
12 1129 As well, Spanish, Vietnamese, and
13 many other ethnic publications testify to their
14 richness of our cultural diversity and the immensely
15 valuable role that media play in the lives of newcomers
16 to Canadian society.
17 1130 Print is not the only media outlet,
18 of course. On the broadcast side, two stations on the
19 AM band broadcast in Chinese and other non-English
20 languages. There's also, of course, Rogers
21 multicultural channel, Chinese language Pay TV, ethnic
22 broadcasting on co-op radio and Indo-Canadian Pay
23 radio.
24 1131 But these media, while holding
25 obvious value, are all but invisible to the mainstream
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1 because they're absent from the main section of the TV
2 broadcast menu.
3 1132 Given television's dominant cultural
4 role, a channel surfer from another planet or for that
5 matter, from another country, would easily conclude
6 that there isn't very much cultural richness in the
7 Lower Mainland. How wrong that would be.
8 1133 Thank you.
9 1134 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr.
10 MacRae.
11 1135 THE SECRETARY: I'd like to invite
12 James Chung to present now, please.
13 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
14 1136 MR. CHUNG: Madame Chair, members of
15 the Commission, ladies and gentlemen.
16 1137 Good evening. My name is James
17 Chung, and I'm a first generation Canadian-born
18 Chinese. I've been a practising artist and musician
19 for over ten years and as a part of that, I'm very
20 media conscious. I've also lived in many different
21 places in Canada, not just in the Lower Mainland and
22 not just in B.C., but in different provinces.
23 1138 I'm sure you can imagine what it's
24 like to be a kid going to a new school for the first
25 time, even if you haven't experienced it yourself.
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1 There's that sense of alienation from not knowing
2 anyone and not being part of a social group like all
3 the other kids. Not only are you alone, but you're
4 also acutely aware that everyone else is checking you
5 out as if you just landed from Mars.
6 1139 However, once you become integrated
7 that sense of alienation disappears. By then you've
8 become an accepted part of the social fabric and you no
9 longer stand out as being new.
10 1140 But what if you can't integrate? For
11 the scarce few who are visible minorities living
12 outside of the major cities in Canada, this is a
13 reality. In rural or small town Canada, there is very
14 little, if any sense, that Canada is a multicultural
15 society. In rural and small town Canada, traditional
16 white culture is so completely dominant that any ethnic
17 culture is considered as "foreign" culture and not part
18 of Canada. In rural and small town Canada, traditional
19 white culture is defined as normal and anything outside
20 of that is weird, bizarre, strange or perhaps worse.
21 1141 I wasn't born in a small town. My
22 family moved to the Okanagan Valley when I was 12. In
23 a town with a population of over 10,000, you could
24 count the number of Chinese families with your fingers.
25 In my school which had over 700 students, there were
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1 only two other Chinese students, aside from my brother
2 and myself and maybe three or four other students who
3 were of colour. Everyone else was white.
4 1142 I will concede that in general,
5 people were racially tolerant there. However,
6 tolerance is not the same as acceptance. In my
7 experience, people from visible minorities have three
8 options to deal with the realities of living in small
9 town or rural Canada.
10 1143 My brother, like many others have,
11 did his best to gain acceptance into the white
12 mainstream society through assimilation, which is not
13 the same as integration. In order to fit the
14 mainstream's demand to be normal, he abandoned his
15 cultural heritage in favour of the dominant white
16 culture. As a result, he no longer has any connection
17 with his ethnic roots. He's Chinese only in terms of
18 his bloodlines.
19 1144 The second option for visible
20 minorities in rural or small communities is to fit the
21 stereotype that people expect. The other Chinese
22 students in my school did exactly that, they were the
23 quiet, meek, overly-studious nerds that white people
24 expected them to be.
25 1145 Neither of those options were
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1 acceptable to me. What I wanted was the ability or
2 right to embrace my culture without being stereotyped
3 or be trapped in its own traditions. I wanted to be
4 Chinese within the modern Canadian context, but without
5 any kind of blueprint or role model of what that might
6 entail, it took me years of conflict and struggle to
7 arrive at a healthy conclusion.
8 1146 You might be wondering what all this
9 has to do with Ethnic Broadcasting Policy. While there
10 is some ethnocultural access to broadcast media in our
11 major cities, there is none outside of them. This has
12 two effects. First, it deprives ethnocultural
13 minorities in the rural or small communities of any
14 contact with their own culture. And secondly, the
15 white majorities who live in these communities only see
16 how the mainstream media presents visible minorities,
17 which, quite frankly, does not often show us in a
18 favourable or realistic light, if they show us at all.
19 1147 Mainstream media, in fact,
20 perpetuates the myth that to be a normal Canadian means
21 being white, even if your skin isn't. In small towns,
22 particularly in the case of young people, not being
23 normal can mean social alienation. But if being normal
24 comes with the cost of abandoning one's cultural
25 heritage the way my brother did, it's too high a price
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1 to pay in my opinion.
2 1148 Neither should visible minorities
3 feel that the only alternative is to assume the
4 stereotypical role that my schoolmates did. In doing
5 so, they marginalized themselves. If the mainstream
6 media continues its portrayal of ethnocultural
7 minorities with convenient stereotypes, those
8 stereotypes not only reinforce themselves among whites,
9 but also among members of their own cultures, as well.
10 1149 The stereotypical Chinese youth
11 portrayed in the mainstream media is either the geek or
12 the gangster. Neither could be consider positive or
13 realistic images of the kinds of choices that should be
14 open to Chinese youth.
15 1150 If my experience is at all similar to
16 others in the same circumstance, ethnic youth living in
17 smaller towns are presented a choice by the dominant
18 society: be like them or be like they expect you to be.
19 I don't think it should be necessary to have to make
20 such a choice.
21 1151 It is in my opinion that there needs
22 to be an improvement in the way ethnocultural
23 minorities living within smaller rural communities in
24 Canada are served. The population of these groups are
25 often too small to generate the necessary demand for
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1 their own programming, even within their own community
2 cable channel.
3 1152 Without some form of cultural
4 representation within the broadcast media, not only are
5 the ethnocultural minorities themselves deprived of
6 their own culture, but it cuts off an avenue of
7 communication between the minorities and the white
8 majority.
9 1153 I'd also like to comment that
10 although there are some ethnocultural programming
11 available in our cities, all of that ethnocultural
12 programming exists in a media ghetto of volunteer
13 powered radio and television programs on channels or
14 stations only a very small number pay attention to.
15 1154 What I'd like to see are some changes
16 that would affect the mainstream media's representation
17 of ethnocultural minorities since that is where the
18 social mainstream gets most of their information.
19 1155 This is especially important outside
20 of the major population centres where the mainstream
21 media is the only easily accessible source of
22 information. If Canada's truly supposed to be
23 multicultural, I think that the mainstream media should
24 reflect that, otherwise rural and small town Canada
25 will continue to consider ethnocultural minorities as
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1 un-Canadian.
2 1156 Thank you.
3 1157 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr.
4 Chung. I think Commissioner Cardozo has a question.
5 1158 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thanks,
6 Commissioner Grauer.
7 1159 I just want to ask about -- I've been
8 doing a bit of an unscientific survey on the issue
9 you're raising. And I appreciate your bringing the
10 concerns of rural communities, because we've been
11 focusing our hearings in the larger urban centres and
12 certainly it's open to people to write in, but
13 invariably, I think we might hear from more people in
14 larger cities.
15 1160 When we had a hearing about two or
16 three months ago on Canadian programming, we were
17 looking at a number of issues about Canadian
18 programming on television, more at the so-called
19 mainstream media and one of the questions we were
20 asking and one of the issues you're raising was to what
21 degree people were satisfied with how the mainstream
22 media programming reflected the diversity. And one of
23 the Intervenors was the Chinese Canadian National
24 Council and when we asked them about the representation
25 of Asians, Chinese Canadians, in programming, this one
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1 person thought that the last time they had been a
2 character in a program of Chinese or Asian descent was
3 back in Degrassi Junior High, which is program that
4 hasn't run in -- it's still running now, but it hasn't
5 been produced in ten years.
6 1161 And I'm wondering if you're aware of
7 any other programs that have, as regular characters,
8 Chinese Canadians or other South East Asians. I --
9 you, go ahead.
10 1162 MR. CHUNG: I haven't actually -- I
11 hate to say it, but I watch a lot of TV, and --
12 1163 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Well, then you
13 can probably answer my question --
14 1164 MR. CHUNG: Yeah. And the thing is,
15 I -- to my knowledge, there isn't a recurring character
16 of Asian descent that I've seen in recent memory.
17 1165 MS CHUN: There was a Vietnamese
18 character on 21 Jump Street.
19 1166 MR. CHUNG: Yeah, but Chun, my
20 neighbour next to me, mentioned there was a Vietnamese
21 character on 21 Jump Street, but again, that's also
22 from many years ago. But since then, no, not to my
23 knowledge.
24 1167 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Well, it was
25 interesting, I was looking at some programs recently
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1 and just counting stuff like that. And when DaVinci's
2 Inquest started, they had a reference on the first
3 night, the only non-white person or reference to a
4 person of non-white was referred to as an Aboriginal
5 woman who turned out to be dead because she was a
6 prostitute on drugs.
7 1168 You know, it's not sort of something
8 that we just talk about, it happens. And a few
9 episodes later, there was a portrayal of an Asian
10 person who was serving soup in a Chinese restaurant and
11 she was on for about two to three seconds, I would
12 think. So there's not -- even though DaVinci's Inquest
13 is filmed here in Vancouver, whereas people repeatedly
14 told us, there's a very large Asian population, it
15 doesn't seem to -
16 1169 MR. CHUNG: Yeah. The last time I
17 actually saw Chinese people on TV in recent memory was
18 an episode of Millennium. But again, it was back -- we
19 were stereotyped again as gangsters, you know,
20 basically we were heroine dealers and people associated
21 with that trade. And since then, that's the last time
22 I've seen any real major role for Asian people on TV.
23 1170 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. Thanks
24 very much.
25 1171 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
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1 1172 MR. YIU: Sorry, if I can join, too,
2 a little bit.
3 1173 Actually, in nowadays American
4 television, there are more Asian or Chinese American
5 roles, say Ally McBeal, is very popular in Vancouver,
6 it has, well, a controversial, obvious Chinese American
7 woman. And also, on Saturday night, ABC channel, they
8 have -- I forgot the name, it's a director from Hong
9 Kong and also it's a -- the actor is called Samuel
10 Hong, it's about Kung Fu.
11 1174 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Marshal Law.
12 1175 MR. YIU: Yeah, Marshal Law, it's
13 also another recent episode -- sitcom from -- made in
14 Hollywood, has quite prominent Chinese American figures
15 there.
16 1176 But I don't see similar thing happens
17 in Canada.
18 1177 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
19 1178 THE SECRETARY: I'd like to invite
20 Nathan Cho to make his presentation now, please.
21 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
22 1179 MR. CHO: I don't speak English very
23 well, so I just read what I wrote and I go ahead.
24 1180 My name is Nathan Cho and I'm
25 providing Korean programming on Rogers multicultural
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1 channel and on a Specialty Pay TV Talentvision. Over
2 the past four years, I have been using these two
3 channels to serve the needs of the Korean community in
4 the Lower Mainland.
5 1181 Among many issues that your
6 Commissioners put forward for public consultation
7 today, I would like to talk about three issues which
8 have a high degree of relevance to my current business
9 experience.
10 1182 First of all, I would like to talk
11 about how to nurture Canadian content in ethnic
12 programming. I agree that it is better to have
13 Canadian produced ethnic programs than programs
14 imported from foreign sources. About two months ago, I
15 wanted to launch a Korean language local news in
16 Vancouver in order to let my viewers know what is
17 developing in Canada. I planned to divide the news
18 into two segments: news developing in the Korean
19 community in Vancouver and news happening in the
20 mainstream society.
21 1183 For the mainstream portion of the
22 news, I found it very hard and costly to cover it
23 without assistance from other conventional
24 broadcasters. So I approached BCTV for a sharing of
25 their news footage. I wanted to use their news footage
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1 with Korean voice-overs on the Rogers multicultural
2 channel. (I have done the same on Talentvision for the
3 last three months and have watched the overwhelming
4 responses from the viewers). But BCTV management
5 replied back with negative answers. Maybe they thought
6 that Rogers multicultural channel is one of their
7 competitors, I really don't know. In order to see that
8 new immigrants integrate into Canadian society, we need
9 to inform them about what's happening in Canada.
10 1184 In other words, local news is good
11 for them and moreover, it is a Canadian content
12 program. But it seems that other conventional TV
13 broadcasters are reluctant to give us a help.
14 1185 I am going to knock at the CBC in the
15 coming weeks to see if I can use their news footage.
16 To nurture Canadian content programming, small ethnic
17 producers like me find it difficult to get financial
18 resources. If other conventional TV broadcasters are
19 at least willing to share their news footage with us
20 free of charge, we will be more equipped to carry out
21 Canadian content programming.
22 1186 Secondly, I would like to talk about
23 cross-subsidization that is being practised by a
24 Toronto multilingual television station. Some might
25 believe that some ethnic communities simply do not have
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1 the market forces to make their ethnic programming
2 feasible.
3 1187 In several paragraphs of CRTC's
4 Public Notice 1998-135, the CRTC implied that this
5 Toronto station had to resort to revenues from the 40
6 percent mainstream programming in their schedules in
7 order to allow small ethnic communities to have their
8 share of programming. Well, that is a myth. I have
9 provided reasonably high quality Korean programming to
10 the Korean community whose population in Lower Mainland
11 is only about 30,000, and I did not need a subsidy of
12 any kind.
13 1188 Why not allow competent independent
14 producers to carry out their ethnic programming at
15 their own cost. Any future multilingual station should
16 allot time blocks to each competent ethnic producer,
17 and revenues generated from the commercial spots in
18 these time blocks should be taken by the producer for
19 the expenses that he incurred.
20 1189 Finally, I would like to talk about a
21 measure of protection for existing ethnic station. If
22 your Commissioners are thinking about launching a new
23 multilingual station in Vancouver, it is a good idea
24 but may have to make a provision for protection for
25 existing ethnic programming like mine.
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1 1190 A lot of viewers watch my programs on
2 Pay TV channel Talentvision do not want to pay the
3 subscription fees, (they say, "Can we get rid of the
4 scrambling device that is in place?"). The Korean
5 viewers watching my programming on Rogers multicultural
6 channel, which is a special programming, complain about
7 the small number of hours of Korean programming on that
8 channel. Therefore, a new multilingual TV station
9 delivering a sufficient amount of Korean programming
10 free over the air is highly in demand. However, I
11 would like the Commissioners to take cautions in view
12 of my case, and take steps to maintain a balance
13 between current Specialty channels and any multilingual
14 stations that may be launched in the future.
15 1191 One of the ways to clear up my
16 business dilemma might be that this new multilingual
17 programming station absorbed my current programming on
18 the Rogers multicultural channel and Talentvision.
19 1192 Thank you very much for listening to
20 my presentation. And thanks a lot for coming to
21 Vancouver.
22 1193 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very
23 much.
24 1194 THE SECRETARY: Our next presenter
25 this evening is Mohammed Janief.
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1 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
2 1195 MR. JANIEF: Madame Chair, members of
3 the Panel, ladies and gentlemen.
4 1196 Good evening. My name is Janief
5 Mohammed. I've been here for about 15 years. I'm an
6 accountant, I practice accounting and income taxes.
7 1197 First of all, I'd like to thank the
8 Commission and the Panel members for taking their time
9 out in listening to the public.
10 1198 As you have heard from all the other
11 members who have presented this evening, there is a cry
12 for more access. And I'm also here saying, yes, we do
13 need more access.
14 1199 There's a variety of reasons why we
15 need access. I'll go into detail a little bit as we go
16 along.
17 1200 If you look at me right now, I'm a
18 Muslim who was born in Fiji, I came here about 15 years
19 ago. When I look at the TV, whatever -- I hardly see
20 any coverage of Muslims. It's not that I want it, we
21 need it. We need it because we need to preserve our
22 heritage and culture. My kids are growing up, unless I
23 expose them to what my heritage and culture is it would
24 be lost.
25 2000
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1 1201 Let me give you an example, I'm a
2 fifth generation. My forefathers came from India to
3 work on the sugar cane of Fiji -- sugar cane farms in
4 Fiji Islands. When their time as, I mentioned,
5 labourers was over, they decided to stay back and make
6 Fiji their home. In doing so, what they did is they
7 preserved their culture. This is why -- the only
8 reason why I am a Muslim today. I'd have been lost --
9 I would have never been able to speak the language my
10 parents, my forefathers spoke.
11 1202 This is the reason why we need to
12 preserve our culture and heritage, otherwise our time
13 will come, we don't know who we are and where we came
14 from.
15 1203 The other issue is the kids are
16 growing up and they have to be brought in an
17 environment so that they know how and what is
18 appropriate for them. By sharing culture and tradition
19 with other communities and other ethnic groups, you
20 will learn tolerance and acceptance.
21 1204 Sometimes I watch Chinese television.
22 They're playing movies. I don't understand their
23 language, yet I see it's -- and I find it interesting.
24 But unless we interact with one another, we won't be
25 able to tolerate and accept other groups of people who
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1 live in Canada.
2 1205 Canada is a multiracial country, a
3 truly multiracial. But the only way we can live in
4 peace and harmony is by learning to live the other
5 sides culture and tradition.
6 1206 Recently we went through Ramadan.
7 Ramadan is one of the founding pillars of Islam, which
8 is so important for us. And one of the complaints I
9 have is that the 30 days went by, there was hardly any
10 coverage on TV about Ramadan. There was some talk
11 about it on CKNW and on the "Id" (ph) Day, the day of
12 the fasting and the prayer, there was some coverage in
13 Vancouver Sun, which I appreciate. But I think the
14 coverage wasn't enough.
15 1207 It's not that I want the coverage, it
16 makes me feel proud. Yes, I'm in a country where I'm
17 accepted, my religion and culture has been accepted.
18 So others can know about it, what Muslim is. Why did
19 these guys fast? What's the reason behind it?
20 1208 In conclusion, I would like to say
21 there is a need or there is room that maybe the CRTC
22 should think about in ways and means of opening other
23 channels so there is more room where other groups can
24 have access to this type of channels to present
25 their -- to present their culture and probably share
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1 the heritage with other groups of people. How it can
2 be done, I don't know, which is why, I guess, you
3 occupy these big posts.
4 1209 But the access has to be in prime
5 time. There is no use in giving a community a time at
6 twelve o'clock midnight or five o'clock in the morning,
7 that's no good. I know all of us, we want access. How
8 it can be done, I don't know, but the suggestion is
9 that somehow everybody should have access to prime
10 time, by rotation or whatever means, so that we all
11 feel, yes, we are being treated fairly. Fairness is
12 important and just to everybody.
13 1210 The programming content has to be at
14 professional levels. Sometimes I watch this
15 multicultural channel and it's -- the quality is poor,
16 especially if you look at, like, major TV stations,
17 CBC, NBC, ABC, they're done professional --
18 professionally, there reason being is they compete with
19 the other stations to maintain their status as number
20 one.
21 1211 So at the same token, we should
22 not -- we should maintain an element of
23 professionalism, too. You cannot say, "Oh, here's your
24 channel, do some programming", present this side or
25 that side of the story and most of the time, I think
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1 and I see is we import a drama from another country and
2 play it in here, which is not appropriate. We need
3 coverage of what is going on in Canada and how we can
4 relate and live here and get locally produced stuff.
5 1212 As a last remark, I think new
6 channels should be added on and there's a need for why
7 we, as Muslims, we need. I mean, if someone looks at
8 me and they say -- naturally, the first thing comes to
9 this guy is "He's East Indian", which is probably
10 right, I am East Indian. But on the other side of the
11 coin, I'm not only East Indian, I am a Muslim, too. My
12 religion, my heritage is very important to me and so it
13 be for my children.
14 1213 As a last resort, the only way you
15 can preserve your religion and your heritage is by
16 maintaining it and practising it. To keep on doing
17 that and to expose it to other people, you need access
18 and the only way access is is by television and other
19 news media. Television is one of the most -- is the
20 best means to pass on or convey a message. Nobody
21 wants to read.
22 1214 The new -- which is true. I used to
23 read books like one book every day -- a week when I was
24 in high school, today I hardly do so. I'd rather watch
25 TV.
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1 1215 Ladies and gentlemen, thank you very
2 much for your time.
3 1216 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very
4 much. I believe that Commissioner Cardozo has a
5 question.
6 1217 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Yeah, I have a
7 tough question for you, especially because you said you
8 don't know how to fix the issue.
9 1218 What you and a number of people have
10 talked about today is the issue of portrayal -- fair
11 portrayal of Muslims or of other communities or of our
12 diversity. And you've raised the issue of better
13 access on the multicultural channel and this proceeding
14 that we're having today is really about the ethnic
15 media.
16 1219 But part of it is, if it all happens
17 in the multicultural channel and as you've mentioned,
18 you've talked about quality, yesterday Mobina Jaffer
19 talked about concerns around quality. If people don't
20 watch the multicultural channel because the quality is
21 not good or because it's in various languages and they
22 may be unilingual and they don't feel they're going to
23 get a kick out of that channel, so they tend not to
24 tune in there, then what have you accomplished by
25 getting your access on there?
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1 1220 Do you need to have both the
2 portrayal on other channels -- which is more important,
3 the portrayal in all the other 50 channels or better
4 access on this one or is it both?
5 1221 MR. JANIEF: I think both. It's --
6 the more the better.
7 1222 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Right.
8 1223 MR. JANIEF: Once you get access to
9 it, they say practice makes perfect. Unless you have
10 access to it, you cannot practice to improve it. Right
11 now we don't have access to it. When you look at other
12 people and criticize and all of a sudden you're doing
13 something wrong, you want to go back and correct it,
14 improve it.
15 1224 I think access is the main thing at
16 the moment. Unless we have access, you cannot bring in
17 professionalism and improve it, improve the content.
18 1225 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So are you
19 saying that the multicultural channel becomes a
20 training ground to get that professional --
21 1226 MR. JANIEF: I don't know. I'm sure
22 there are professional people in this area who know how
23 to do programming and how to present programs. I'm
24 just a layman accountant --
25 1227 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: No, that's why
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1 I'm asking you the questions.
2 1228 MR. JANIEF: I think it would not be
3 right to say we use the multicultural channel as a
4 training ground and get an access, which is kind of,
5 probably selfish and greedy, right. I mean, if you
6 want to do something right, let's do it right from the
7 beginning, rather than take advantage of something here
8 and then go on to something else. That's my
9 philosophy.
10 1229 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. Thanks
11 very much. Thanks Commissioner Grauer.
12 1230 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
13 1231 MS PHAM: Could I just make a
14 comment? I'm not sure if --
15 1232 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
16 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
17 1233 MS PHAM: -- might dig something out
18 of, you know, that -- I was just -- I had a point,
19 actually regarding what you've brought up during my
20 presentation and I completely forgot about it because I
21 wrote it in the margin.
22 1234 And that has to do with the
23 multicultural channel. It's interesting that every
24 time --
25 1235 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I think you're
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1 blessed.
2 --- Technical difficulties / Problèmes techniques
3 --- Laughter / Rires
4 1236 MS PHAM: Yeah. So anyhow, I wanted
5 to make a comment regarding the existence of a
6 multicultural channel and how that serves multicultural
7 communities in Canada.
8 1237 And I think that it's very
9 understandable that as the first step, when we, as a
10 political movement, that when we first mobilized then
11 it's understandable that we have our own kind of medium
12 or our own space to carry out our work. But I think
13 that eventually as we become more sophisticated in
14 terms of how we want to reach our audience, that
15 eventually we want not to have something that is
16 multicultural only, designated as multicultural, but I
17 think probably eventually we will want to move into
18 more mainstream outlets.
19 1238 And that's when things get really
20 exciting, I think, because then we achieve some sort
21 of -- because only then can we achieve equal status.
22 1239 I've often been concerned that having
23 a multicultural channel or station, while that's really
24 important, it somehow -- it seems to me that it may
25 just be a kind of a token -- a token action. And so I
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1 think that it's not enough just to have that, I think
2 eventually we should be ambitious and think big and go
3 wherever we can.
4 1240 Thank you.
5 1241 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
6 1242 THE SECRETARY: We have one more
7 presenter for this panel before we break. I'd ask Rena
8 Heer to make her presentation.
9 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
10 1243 MS HEER: Hi. Actually, we're sort
11 of a partnership here, so... Atish is supposed to
12 speak before me. So would you do that? Thanks.
13 1244 We're going to keep it really short,
14 though.
15 1245 MR. RAM: My name is Atish Ram, I'm a
16 producer on a television show called "Zindagi" (ph) on
17 the Rogers multicultural channel.
18 1246 I, as well as my friends, have --
19 came from the Fiji Islands, Islands of Fiji, 30 years
20 ago as a child. Growing up here in Vancouver, I was
21 caught between two cultures, one holding on to my
22 heritage of what I've learned as an individual or a
23 small child in Fiji, as well as adapting to the new --
24 my new home in Canada.
25 1247 Growing up I realized that there was
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1 a communication gap and there was a generation gap with
2 the elders as well as the new Canadians that were born
3 here. And I found that there was a very -- a need to
4 put a programming on television that not only
5 recognized our culture, but also taught us and our
6 elders the way of life in Vancouver or in Canada.
7 1248 It was a very -- it was a big
8 struggle, because when I started developing this
9 program, there was other programs that were already in
10 place, and I think the CRTC regulations or the
11 multicultural channel regulations at that time was that
12 they would only allow a certain amount of hours or --
13 to a specific ethnic group based on the population.
14 For example, when I went to apply for a Fijian program,
15 they said that there was already a couple of Fijian
16 programs that were already in place, so therefore
17 there's only 10,000, 15,000 Fijian people, so therefore
18 they would not allow another half hour programming.
19 1249 Two and a half year battle with
20 Rogers multicultural channel, I developed another show,
21 called "Zindagi". "Zindagi" means life. And I wanted
22 to do this show based on -- this program based on the
23 entire community at large, South Asian community in
24 particular, but since the program has hit the airways,
25 we've had many ethnic groups, such as Chinese, Italian,
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1 Iranian, even the Caucasian people watching this
2 program, mainly because the entire program is done in
3 English.
4 1250 And because I chose to do this in
5 English, because I wanted to not only highlight and
6 profile prominent members of the community and show the
7 community in Vancouver that we're not the stereotyped,
8 you know, taxi drivers or cab drivers that we get
9 perceived to be, but we are also doctors, lawyers,
10 journalists and what have you.
11 1251 This entire program is funded by
12 myself. I have invested approximately $80,000 of my
13 own money into purchasing equipment. Equipment that is
14 20 years old. I've also volunteer, as well as have
15 volunteers who are aspiring and perspiring journalists
16 who plan to be a journalist in the instrument of
17 television, and they're a wonderful group of people.
18 1252 This is a totally non-funded -- I
19 mean, non-profit organization. We cover things such as
20 breast cancer, alcoholism, spousal abuse, AIDS,
21 homosexuality, things that have never, ever been
22 touched in our ethnic community, which is a taboo in
23 our ethnic community. We are showing that and voicing
24 it through our youth and saying our elders that this
25 exists, let's wake up and smell the coffee.
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1 1253 On the other hand, we're also
2 reviewing Indian movies, as well as Indian CDs to bring
3 in music forth in this program to also educate our
4 youngsters that this is also our culture and our
5 heritage, as well.
6 1254 I guess they want us out of here,
7 right?
8 --- Technical difficulties / Problèmes techniques
9 1255 MR. RAM: Since it's inception in
10 1997, the show has grown dramatically. We still
11 maintain to keep it half hour time slot. We would like
12 to go mainstream, we'd like to go further, we'd like to
13 expand our show more. However, lack of funding is one
14 of the things, and of course, time is the other thing.
15 1256 It takes approximately 40 to 60 hours
16 a week to produce this one half hour show every week of
17 volunteer time. I have a crew of 15 people, as well as
18 myself. And what I also do is also with my experience
19 in television and film for the last 20 years, I give an
20 opportunity to the youth to come in and learn with me
21 and to -- also what we do is the entire profits of this
22 program is donated to Children's Hospital. We work
23 together with the Children's Hospital Foundation, as
24 well as the Willingdon Youth Detention Centre.
25 1257 The girls, the people, the youth that
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1 are on my program periodically go to Children's
2 Hospital and work with the little children to learn
3 about their lives, because I -- and also to the
4 Willingdon Youth Detention Centre to talk to or to
5 present their views and just to sit and chat with the
6 delinquent kids that are spending time there.
7 1258 In return, they gain vast knowledge,
8 and through this program, they -- not only do we show
9 the community, the public -- I mean, the television
10 viewing audience what we're all about, but we also
11 train the individuals that are in this program.
12 1259 And Rena here is one of the hosts
13 that's on the show and she would like to talk about
14 mainly what is "Zindagi" has done for her life.
15 1260 MS HEER: Hi everyone. I'm a 22-year
16 old SFU almost-grad. And the reason I am working with
17 "Zindagi" is because I have an interest in
18 broadcasting, but moreover, my interest initially was
19 in South Asian culture.
20 1261 I grew up, for the first 18 years of
21 my life, I grew up in Clearwater, B.C., which I know
22 nobody really has heard of, and --
23 1262 THE CHAIRPERSON: I have.
24 1263 MS HEER: Oh, excellent. That's
25 awesome. Wow! I'm so impressed.
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1 1264 THE CHAIRPERSON: Oh, good.
2 --- Laughter / Rires
3 1265 MS HEER: And we had two television
4 stations. We had BCTV and we had the CBC. And BCTV
5 was very fuzzy, so all we had was the CBC.
6 1266 And we got about half an hour of
7 television every single night. So most of my time that
8 I spent with entertainment was sort of, like, the
9 reading type of entertainment and thank God for that.
10 1267 But, when I moved to Vancouver and I
11 watched the multicultural channel, I was so overwhelmed
12 and so surprised and so happy because people like me
13 were on TV. And some of the time they were presenting
14 things that I really needed to see, the things that I
15 could really connect with. And that really encouraged
16 me as a young 18-year old who, even though I came from
17 a community where 15 percent of the population was
18 South Asian, we were a relatively unacknowledged type
19 of -- unacknowledged community.
20 1268 So first of all, I'd like to say
21 that, that even anything is progressive and what we
22 have here is really, truly, when we look at other parts
23 of the world or when we look at the rest of North
24 America, is wonderful.
25 1269 We can still go forward, there's a
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1 lot to do, but what we have here is wonderful and it
2 can be built upon and I am optimistic about what the
3 future of ethnic broadcasting holds for us here in B.C.
4 or in the Lower Mainland, for sure.
5 1270 Specifically, I want to talk about
6 "Zindagi", really quickly. And what I want to say
7 about "Zindagi" is it's not just a forum for me
8 personally to express how I feel about my culture or
9 what my culture is about, but it's also an opportunity.
10 It's an opportunity to gain some confidence in my
11 abilities as a reporter/journalist. It's an
12 opportunity to get into the South Asian community and
13 learn about what really impacts everybody else. And
14 it's also an opportunity, as self-serving as this might
15 sound, is to tell people exactly what I think about
16 anything.
17 1271 But also, "Zindagi" is not just us
18 getting up on camera and saying, "Look, you know,
19 here's another brown face on TV. Rah!", it's about
20 learning and imparting values and sharing with each
21 other. We learn -- we've got -- we learn about
22 friendship and teamwork. We're a team of 15 people, we
23 work together, and we try to make things happen. We've
24 gotten involved in the community so that we're not
25 thinking that everybody must be like me and I'm Punjabi
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1 speaking, I'm Sikh and everything else, but that's
2 Gujarati people out there and there's people who are
3 Hindu and people who are Muslim and within Muslims you
4 have people who come from Fiji, you have people who
5 come from India, you have people who come from
6 Pakistan.
7 1272 So it's really a lesson for all of
8 us, even though, you know, we are South Asian, but we
9 don't profess to know it all and we're learning about
10 each other. And what we're trying to do is provide a
11 representative face for all South Asians and not try to
12 be too Punjabi-centric, because Punjabis are -- Punjabi
13 speaking people do make up the bulk of the South Asian
14 community in Vancouver.
15 1273 So it's -- when we first came to
16 "Zindagi" most of us got a two-hour speech from Atish
17 and what he told us is, "Listen, Zindagi is your
18 opportunity. You have certain commitments to the
19 community, you've got to put in your time, you've got
20 to help people out where you can. You've got to get
21 involved with me in Children's Hospital and the
22 Willingdon Youth Detention Centre", he goes, "But it's
23 your opportunity. You can do so much with this.
24 You're going to get exposure in the community. You'll
25 be able to -- if you think you're right somewhere,
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1 you'll be able to tell people that and say, yeah, I'm
2 on TV so I'm right". Just kidding, it doesn't really
3 happen.
4 1274 But it's really -- it's excellent for
5 someone like me who was 21 when she joined the show and
6 thought, "Hey, you know, I'd love to be on VTV, but how
7 am I going to get there? And do I have what it takes?
8 Or do I know what I'm doing or where I'm going?" So
9 even though I pursue my career in information
10 technology in the daytime, I go over to Atish's studio
11 later on and try to pursue this other dream that I
12 have.
13 1275 And most of the girls on our show,
14 and we're predominantly girls, and I don't know why,
15 but most of us, we're just avid learners and we're
16 hopeful about what the Lower Mainland holds for us,
17 because, you know, most of us have come from smaller
18 communities. We have a couple of girls from Nanaimo
19 and two of us are from Clearwater -- go figure that
20 out -- and to most of are just very hopeful and very
21 wanting to make a contribution.
22 1276 And wanting, ultimately, to be in the
23 mainstream to see the mainstream community and the
24 ethnic community sort of integrated and working
25 together so there's not so much of that sort of -- that
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1 divide that's holding us onto this multicultural
2 channel and reaching out to only South Asian youth, but
3 instead, sort of becoming integrated and being able to
4 tell people what we're about.
5 1277 I had the opportunity to appear on
6 Global Television for a few seconds, and it was great,
7 because even though the issue was the tables and chairs
8 issue, which we're all sick of, in the Sikh community
9 it still gave me the opportunity to be recognized as
10 someone who had a valid opinion and able to maybe make
11 some remarks that had some validity and have all of --
12 have everybody in the Lower Mainland hear about what I
13 thought.
14 1278 And to be able to understand that
15 people are recognizing us and saying, "Oh, these are
16 people that have something to say" and their input into
17 something we're presenting is valid, was reassuring.
18 Of course, we cut out all the important stuff that I
19 said.
20 1279 So basically what we want to do is we
21 want to make people think, like Atish said, we want to
22 make them think about things that they don't want to
23 hear about, homosexuality and spousal abuse and
24 anything else we can get into. Right now, our image is
25 tables and chairs, Bindie JoHall, and terrorist
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1 organizations, which we also looked at and Atish is
2 afraid of some repercussions that might hold, but
3 that's okay.
4 1280 And that's just -- that's not just
5 who we are.
6 1281 So basically, like I said, our goal
7 is to generally become more mainstream and to have a
8 more positive outlook for the South Asian community and
9 say that we are needed, we are necessary, our
10 viewpoints are important and like I said, in little
11 strides and like, in the way that we sort of made our
12 way into Global and said, "You know what? This is not
13 necessarily the whole picture. It's about this, as
14 well". The fact that we were able to do that and we
15 are getting some sort of opportunity is sort of a
16 testament to the extent that we've sort of come in the
17 Lower Mainland.
18 1282 So basically that's about it and
19 thank you very much.
20 1283 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very
21 much. Your passion and enthusiasm are quite infectious
22 and I'm sure you've a very bright future ahead of you.
23 Thank you.
24 1284 Madame Secretary, is that it for
25 this...?
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1 1285 THE SECRETARY: That's all for this
2 panel.
3 1286 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. We will now
4 take, I think, a five or ten minute -- ten minute
5 break, maybe. But I'd just like to thank all of you
6 who were here for coming tonight and sharing your views
7 with us. It's very important to us in terms of our
8 work that we have the benefit of the views and the
9 experience of people in communities across the country.
10 So I'd just like to take this opportunity to thank you.
11 1287 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I just want to
12 add a word to what Commissioner Grauer said.
13 1288 You asked her if she knew where
14 Clearwater is and somebody else thanked us for coming
15 to Vancouver. Commissioner Grauer is from Vancouver
16 and is a British Columbia Commissioner. On the
17 Commission, there's 12 of us. I'm one of the folks who
18 lives in Ottawa. There are people who do that and
19 enjoy it, actually.
20 --- Laughter / Rires
21 1289 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: But -- and
22 Marguerite Vogel is the --
23 1290 THE CHAIRPERSON: Now, don't get
24 carried away --
25 1291 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: No, I can't.
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1 Marguerite Vogel is the Director of the CRTC office
2 here in -- for the Region of British Columbia. It is
3 usually Commissioner Grauer around the table who's
4 asking us whether we know where Clearwater is and
5 usually her who's thanking us for coming to Vancouver.
6 So she is very often the advocate for all sorts of
7 issues that are relevant to you. But it's certainly
8 more than education for me.
9 1292 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
10 2030
11 --- Recess / Pause
12 1293 THE CHAIRPERSON: What I will do is I
13 believe that concludes our proceedings. And I'd like
14 to thank everybody for coming here to share their views
15 with us and assisting us in ensuring that we've heard
16 from a broad, diverse group of Canadians in the
17 development of our ethnic policies. So thank you all
18 very much.
19 1294 I'd also like to thank our reporter
20 and ISTS.
21 --- Whereupon the hearing concluded at 2037/
22 L'audience se termine à 2037
23
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