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Please note that the Official Languages Act requires that government publications be available in both official languages.
In order to meet some of the requirements under this Act, the Commission's transcripts will therefore be bilingual as to their covers, the listing of CRTC members and staff attending the hearings, and the table of contents.
However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded verbatim transcript and, as such, is transcribed in either of the official languages, depending on the language spoken by the participant at the hearing.
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
FOR THE CANADIAN RADIO-TELEVISION AND
TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION
TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DU
CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION
ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES
SUBJECT / SUJET:
PUBLIC HEARING ON
THIRD LANGUAGE AND ETHNIC PROGRAMMING /
AUDIENCE PUBLIQUE SUR
LA PROGRAMMATION MULTILINGUE ET À CARACTÈRE ETHNIQUE
HELD AT: TENUE À:
Holiday Inn Holiday Inn
370 King Street 370, rue King
Toronto, Ontario Toronto (Ontario)
February 1, 1999 Le 1er février 1999
Volume 1
tel: 613-521-0703 StenoTran fax: 613-521-7668
Transcripts
In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages
Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be
bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members
and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of
Contents.
However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded
verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in
either of the official languages, depending on the language
spoken by the participant at the public hearing.
Transcription
Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues
officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront
bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des
membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience
publique ainsi que la table des matières.
Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu
textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée
et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues
officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le
participant à l'audience publique.
tel: 613-521-0703 StenoTran fax: 613-521-7668
Canadian Radio-television and
Telecommunications Commission
Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des
télécommunications canadiennes
Transcript / Transcription
Public Hearing / Audience publique
Third Language and Ethnic Programming /
Programmation multilingue et à caractère ethnique
BEFORE/DEVANT:
M. Wilson Chairperson / Présidente
S. Langford Commissioner / Conseiller
ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:
D. Rhéaume Secretary / Secrétaire
D. Rhéaume Legal Counsel/Conseillers
juridiques
M. York Analyst/Analyste
Volume 1
tel: 613-521-0703 StenoTran fax: 613-521-7668
ii
TABLE OF CONTENTS / TABLE DES MATIÈRES
PAGE
Presentation by / Présentation par:
Specialty & Premium Television Association 6
Ukrainian National Federation of Canada 12
Canadian Serbian Club of Toronto 20
Odyssey Television Network 28
Mr. Rajhbir Samagh 34
Bharathi Kala Manram 42
The Canadian Ukrainian Immigrant Aid Society 51
Muslim Welfare Centre 60
Federation of Indo-Canadian Association 66
Committee and General Council of Italians Abroad 75
Bharati Kalamaram 86
tel: 613-521-0703 StenoTran fax: 613-521-7668
1
1 Toronto, Ontario / Toronto (Ontario)
2 --- Upon resuming on Monday, February 1, 1999,
3 at 1600 / L'audience reprend le lundi
4 1er février 1999, à 1600
5 1 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon,
6 ladies and gentlemen. I wonder if I could ask you to
7 come to the table.
8 2 For your information, what we are
9 going to do is start with the first nine parties. So,
10 any members of the first nine parties who are
11 registered to appear today, if you could come to the
12 table and join us. It will make it a lot easier for us
13 to go through the presentations.
14 3 Our Secretary will call the parties
15 to the table.
16 4 MS RHÉAUME: We have Ms Krystyna
17 Piotrowski. Dr. Spiro Flengas. Jane Logan. Sundar
18 Raj. Rajhbir Samagh. Kamiesh Moorgani. Veena Kumar.
19 Mr. or Mrs. Ramamani. Mr. Mohammed Rafiq. Mr. John
20 Ha. The Ukrainian National Federation of Canada. Bora
21 Dragasevich. Eugen Duvalko. Dr. Yvona Bogorya.
22 Danuta Warszawski. Wojciech Wojnarowicz. I hope I
23 said that properly. Wojciech Maciszewski. Anna
24 Czajkowski. Bill Fatsis.
25 5 MR. FATSIS: Yes.
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1 6 MS RHÉAUME: Major Abbas. Veena
2 Dutta. Zuhair Kashmeri. V. Basabiah. Bob
3 Venkatraman. Claudio Lizzola. Arois Babikian. Spyros
4 Bourdorkis.
5 7 THE CHAIRPERSON: We have gone all
6 the way through the list because, as you could tell,
7 the first nine parties not all of them are here yet.
8 8 So, what I would like to do is begin
9 our public consultation with some comments and then we
10 will move to the first presenter.
11 9 Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen,
12 and welcome to this series of public consultations that
13 the CRTC is holding to review its ethnic broadcasting
14 policy.
15 10 My name is Martha Wilson. I am the
16 Ontario Regional Commissioner for the CRTC and with me
17 here at the table is Commissioner Stuart Langford.
18 11 For the next three days, today,
19 tomorrow and Wednesday, my Commission colleagues and I
20 are in the process of listening to the comments and
21 views presented by the participants in these
22 consultations here in Toronto, as well as in Halifax,
23 Montreal, Vancouver and Winnipeg.
24 12 We will also be receiving written
25 comments and documents by e-mail. All submissions,
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1 both oral and written, will form part of the public
2 record.
3 13 These consultations are part of a
4 process the CRTC began two years ago to review its
5 major policies for the Canadian broadcasting system,
6 including television and radio.
7 14 As you know, the goal of these
8 consultations is to help the CRTC examine the policies
9 and regulations that were established in 1985 when a
10 Broadcasting Policy Reflecting Canada's Cultural and
11 Linguistic Diversity was issued. One of the most
12 important goals of this policy is to ensure that the
13 Canadian broadcasting system serves the needs and
14 interests of all Canadians by reflecting their
15 ethnocultural diversity in an effective manner.
16 15 However, since this policy was
17 issued, Canada's demographic profile has changed
18 considerably, and the amount of third language and
19 ethnic programming available in the Canadian
20 broadcasting system has increased substantially.
21 16 By looking into these issues around
22 ethnic broadcasting, we are asking: are the goals of
23 the current policy still valid? And, is the policy
24 still effective in attaining these goals?
25 17 Public Notice 1998-135 set out a
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1 series of questions and invited your views in response.
2 We are ready to have your comments. But, before we do
3 so, allow me to go on to some housekeeping matters
4 regarding the conduct of this public consultation.
5 18 CRTC staff assisting us during this
6 consultation are Donald Rhéaume , legal advisor. He is
7 at the far left at the head table. Morag York who is
8 next to me, she is an analyst, and Diane Rhéaume will
9 be our Secretary. Margaret Kennedy who runs the
10 Toronto Documentation Centre will be checking people in
11 at the door. I invite you to call on them with any
12 questions you may have, including any questions about
13 the process today, and for the rest of this proceeding.
14 19 Our intention is to have this session
15 run until all participants have been heard. The
16 Secretary will call each presenter in order.
17 20 To ensure that all parties have an
18 opportunity to make a presentation, we ask that you
19 limit your comments to 10 minutes. We may wish to ask
20 you questions following your presentation, but because
21 of the unprecedented number of participants who have
22 registered here in Toronto, its quite possible we will
23 not ask questions of each and every one of you. Please
24 do not interpret this as a lack of interest on our
25 part. From our perspective, the most important thing
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1 during the public consultations is for us to hear from
2 all of you and in the interests of time this may mean
3 that we will not have the opportunity to ask questions
4 during this phase of the process.
5 21 As I have said earlier, the
6 proceedings will be transcribed and the transcript will
7 form part of the record upon which the Commission makes
8 its decision. So that the people responsible for this
9 task can provide an accurate record, I would ask that
10 when you speak you press the small white button on the
11 microphone in front of you and make sure that this red
12 light is illuminated. This activates the microphone
13 and will allow all of the people in the room to hear
14 very clearly what you have to offer.
15 22 For those of you who prefer to submit
16 your comments in writing, there are comment cards
17 available at the back of the room from the Secretary.
18 If you have any comments you would like to pass on, you
19 can just write them on a card, sign it and give it to
20 the Secretary before the end of the session.
21 23 Finally, our plan for conducting the
22 consultation today is to break the parties into three
23 groups. I will just grab my timetable. We are going
24 to try to hear the first nine parties who are
25 registered between 4:00 and 6:30. We will take a short
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1 15-minute break at that point. We will reconvene at
2 6:45 and sit until 8:15 to hear the second group of
3 nine presenters, and then we will reconvene again at
4 8:30 and go until ten o'clock or until we are finished
5 in order to her the remaining parties.
6 24 So, with those words I would like to
7 pass it over to Diane Rhéaume who is our Secretary to
8 call on the first party who is present.
9 25 MS RHÉAUME: The first presenter is
10 Jane Logan, President and CEO of the Specialty and
11 Premium Television Association.
12 26 MS LOGAN: Thank you very much.
13 27 Thank you, Ms Wilson, Mr. Langford,
14 Commission staff.
15 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
16 28 MS LOGAN: As you know, I am the
17 President of the Specialty and Premium Television
18 Association, SPTV, and we represent the majority of
19 Canada's specialty and pay television networks. I am
20 proud to note our membership includes four of Canada's
21 five specialty services broadcasting in third
22 languages.
23 29 Canadian third-language specialty
24 networks play a key role in strengthening the
25 multicultural fabric of this country. They serve the
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1 social, information and commercial needs of
2 multicultural communities from a Canadian perspective.
3 One of the main reasons Canadians watch television is
4 entertainment, an objective recognized in the
5 Broadcasting Act, and third-language services do a
6 great job of this as well. They are an important tool
7 for Canadian families who wish to foster and promote
8 their linguistic and multicultural heritage and for new
9 Canadians adapting to life in Canada.
10 30 Unlike foreign services, Canadian
11 networks have the added value of creating a Canadian
12 context and a Canadian experience for linguistic
13 communities and they can serve as a focal point for
14 multicultural identity in Canada. They are relevant to
15 Canadians with mother tongues other than English or
16 French and pertinent to their day-to-day lives in a way
17 that foreign networks cannot be. Their programming
18 provides a forum for the discussion of community issues
19 which do not otherwise find their way into mainstream
20 television.
21 31 Canadian programming on
22 third-language networks includes local cultural events,
23 interviews and debates with Members of Parliament and
24 community leaders, daily Canadian news reports, and
25 various other information and entertainment
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1 programming. Each of these lessens the isolation of
2 linguistic groups and asserts their role in Canadian
3 society.
4 32 The importance of third-language
5 networks is demonstrated by the fact that they were
6 among the very first specialty and pay-television
7 networks licensed in Canada. Fairchild's Talentvision
8 network, which serves a regional Chinese audience and
9 was originally called Cathay, was licensed in 1982.
10 That's with the very first movie networks. In 1984
11 Telelatino and Chinavision, now Fairchild TV, followed.
12 These founding members of our industry have recently
13 been joined by Asian Television Network, serving
14 Canadians of South Asian descent, and Odyssey, serving
15 Greek Canadians. ATN and Odyssey were licensed in 1997
16 and they are already in operation, distributed by
17 direct-to-home satellite and digital cable.
18 33 Now, I know we have time constraints
19 this evening and of the many, many questions that you
20 have put forward in your Public Notice, I would really
21 like to focus on the issue of how do we create further
22 diversity through the distribution of more
23 third-language specialty networks within the Canadian
24 broadcasting system.
25 34 Our written brief which we will
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1 submit March 4 will offer a more comprehensive overview
2 of the other issues before the Commission.
3 35 Let me start by saying that SPTV
4 fully supports the distribution of more third-language
5 services in Canada.
6 36 Now, I will preface that by saying
7 there is currently a moratorium on additions to the
8 CRTC list of foreign services that may be broadcast
9 here. We believe this is essential to ensuring that
10 unlaunched licensed Canadian services have first
11 opportunity at limited distribution capacity. And we
12 also believe that there should be no further additions
13 to the list until the broader framework for licensing
14 new Canadian services has been established, and until
15 the Commission has determined the optimal conditions
16 for digital distribution. Fortunately, these are major
17 issues on the CRTC's regulatory agenda this year.
18 37 To give you a broader appreciation of
19 our industry, I'd like to share some fundamentals that
20 have proven true time and again during our 17-year
21 history. They hold true for specialty networks whether
22 in any language.
23 38 First, the Canadian market is so
24 small that only one service in each narrow niche can be
25 viable. This is no surprise since in the United States
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1 where there is an 80 million household cable TV market,
2 that market is often unable to support competing
3 narrow-niche specialty services. I was surprised to
4 learn myself that there used to be two comedy specialty
5 networks in the United States broadcasting in English,
6 but they have since merged. So that market only
7 supports one in that very mainstream category. What
8 this means is we can't have unrealistic expectations
9 about the ability of services to compete head to head
10 for programming rights, subscriber fees, audience, and
11 advertising in Canada.
12 39 Secondly, for this very reason, if a
13 foreign service is distributed in Canada before a
14 Canadian services has a chance to offer the same
15 service, then the business case for the Canadian
16 service is destroyed.
17 40 Third, foreign services bring
18 diversity, but they do not contribute to the financing
19 or broadcast of Canadian programming, nor are they
20 tailored to the specific needs of people who live here.
21 They don't have to meet our community standards, and as
22 the Commissioners are aware, the CRTC does not have the
23 jurisdiction to deal with complaints about programming
24 on foreign services.
25 41 So, with this experience in minds, we
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1 suggest the following guidelines for new third-language
2 specialty services in Canada:
3 42 First, we believe Canadians should
4 have the first opportunity to apply for any new
5 third-language specialty television license.
6 43 Second, after Canadian services,
7 preference should be given to foreign services who have
8 Canadian partners and who are prepared to operate as
9 licensed Canadian services.
10 44 And third, no new licences should be
11 awarded that compete with existing services. For
12 example, a second Greek service or a second Italian
13 service should not be licensed or added to the Eligible
14 Satellite Services List. The only exception we can see
15 to that might be if the existing licensee is the owner
16 of the second service, as is the case with Fairchild
17 which operates both a national and a regional Chinese
18 service. That might help to mitigate the impact of
19 competition, especially for programming rights, but
20 recognizing that these are very narrow niche services
21 we really wonder about the viability of any two
22 operating in the same niche.
23 45 SPTV puts forward these thoughts in
24 the hope that other linguistic communities will be able
25 to reap the benefits currently afforded by Canada's
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1 five third-language specialty services to their
2 specific audiences.
3 46 So I thank you for the opportunity to
4 raise these issues today. I would be happy to answer
5 any questions at this time or perhaps in our written
6 brief.
7 47 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very
8 much, Ms Logan.
9 48 Madam Secretary.
10 49 MS RHÉAUME: The next presentation is
11 by the Ukrainian National Federation of Canada. If you
12 would like to identify yourselves please.
13 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
14 50 MS DIAKOWSKY: Thank you very much.
15 51 I appear before you on behalf of the
16 Ukrainian National Federation of Canada, to which
17 Canadians of Ukrainian origin belong from coast to
18 coast.
19 52 Ukrainian settlement in Canada began
20 more than a century ago. Canadian Ukrainians have
21 contributed much to the development, prosperity and
22 welfare of this country by their active and productive
23 participation in all aspects of Canada's national life.
24 Although staunchly Canadian, the community remains
25 conscious of historical, cultural and spiritual roots
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1 in the lands of its ancestors, Ukraine.
2 53 As a distinctive community it has
3 distinctive needs, which should be satisfied by
4 Canada's various radio and television broadcast
5 services. We are here as listeners and viewers of
6 Ukrainian programming. Those who are engaged in
7 producing and broadcasting them will surely take
8 advantage of these hearings to present their own views.
9 54 Other ethnocultural groups. The
10 needs of the Ukrainian community are similar and
11 perhaps identical to those of other ethnocultural
12 groups. With rare exceptions, these groups, among them
13 the Ukrainian, rely on more than one language for
14 intercommunication. Generally, this is the language of
15 the group, in our case Ukrainian, and one or both of
16 Canada's official languages. English and French are
17 needed to communicate with fellow Canadians of other
18 origins, as well as those of their own group whose
19 knowledge of the ethnic language is inadequate or has
20 been lost.
21 55 Demographic trends show that in a
22 generation or two these Canadians of origins other than
23 aboriginal, or whose ancestral origins lie in France or
24 the British Isles, will constitute the majority of our
25 population.
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1 56 Recognition of right. A broadcasting
2 policy which answers the needs of this part of our
3 population should be seen not as a charity or granting
4 of a favour, but as a recognition of the rights of
5 those who provide financial support to broadcasting,
6 either as consumers of commercial products and/or as
7 taxpayers.
8 57 Questions considered. The call for
9 comments asks a number of questions. We will limit our
10 answers only to those that have application to us as
11 viewers and listeners and to which we can give a
12 constructive answer. I am going to refer to the
13 document -- the Public Notice CRTC 1998-135 and just to
14 their numbers.
15 58 Question 2. While specific policy
16 related to ethnocultural broadcast is necessary, it
17 should also be flexible enough to enable exceptions to
18 be made where warranted. Canada is so vast in terms of
19 territory and the distribution of ethnocultural
20 communities, so diverse that an inflexible policy might
21 in fact have a negative impact. Market forces alone
22 may not be able to meet the needs of ethnocultural
23 audiences. The alternative, presumably, some sort of
24 governmental subsidy, would not necessarily meet the
25 need adequately either. It might well be subject to
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1 abuse and result in inferior programming broadcast to
2 non-existent audiences, political interference, et
3 cetera.
4 59 Question 3(a). A link to the origin
5 nation is important for informational purposes and to
6 maintain ties with the ancestral cultural. It should
7 not, however, be used to embroil the Canadian community
8 in political, religious or other conflicts there.
9 60 Question 3(f). Programming that
10 encourages cultural and intellectual expression of the
11 ethnocultural groups as part of the Canadian cultural
12 and intellectual continuum is important.
13 61 Question 5. Ethnic programming in
14 English or French is important to serve the needs of
15 those who, while still conscious of their ethnic
16 origin, have lost the ancestral language and are faced
17 with anonymity and social isolation. Such programming
18 might also be of use to others with an interest in that
19 particular ethnic group.
20 62 Question 8. We feel strongly that
21 programming from foreign services might supplement, but
22 cannot and should not replace programming that reflects
23 the experience in Canada. Such programming should not
24 to alienate the viewer or listening from the broader
25 society in which he lives here.
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1 63 Question 11. The classification of
2 programming into five types as given in paragraph 18
3 should be maintained.
4 64 Fourteen. Generally speaking, the
5 type-E programming by non-ethnic broadcasters seems to
6 be a rare exception. An increase is desirable and
7 would have positive social results.
8 65 Question 16(c). Mainstream
9 broadcasters might increase type-E programming if they
10 were made aware of developments in the ethnic
11 communities which could provide materials for
12 interesting programs. In this, government offices of
13 all levels that deal with ethnic communities might well
14 be of assistance.
15 66 Question 17. Simply, yes.
16 67 Question 19. This service could most
17 easily be provided and on a cost-effective basis by
18 type-C and type-E programming.
19 68 Question 28. Applicants proposing a
20 national ethnic television network should be required
21 to commit themselves to provide services to the diverse
22 ethnic communities in the regions the network cover, if
23 only through type-C and type-E operations.
24 69 Question 29. There should be a
25 balance between foreign and Canadian content. It
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1 should be required that in the long term the life of
2 the ethnic community in Canada and the viewing area be
3 adequately covered. While foreign programming might be
4 sufficient for some part of the audience, it should not
5 monopolize air time. Local talent should be developed
6 and encouraged.
7 70 Question 31. In many cases,
8 financial considerations must be taken into account
9 when establishing or measuring Canadian content levels.
10 In some instances, foreign material is inexpensive to
11 utilize. Analogous Canadian material may be
12 unobtainable or too costly. A balance should be struck
13 between what is desirable and what is possible. At the
14 same time, Canadian content levels, no matter how
15 flexibly applied, must remain in place. Ethnic
16 programmers may not have sufficient Canadian content
17 material to place them on a par with other broadcasters
18 and it would be only realistic to modify these levels
19 if ethnic programming is to continue.
20 71 Question 32. In the last decade the
21 availability of Canadian produced Ukrainian music has
22 not kept pace with that coming from abroad. Production
23 of Ukrainian musical recordings in Canada is sporadic
24 and limited in scope. There is some change coming, by
25 the way, I should add, with the influx of new
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1 immigrants and the reactivation of many people within
2 the Ukrainian community.
3 72 Question 33. It should be kept in
4 mind that in Ukrainian programming in Canada music is
5 an incidental part and programs devoted solely to
6 playing music are the rare exception. This is also
7 true of other ethnic programming and should be taken
8 into consideration.
9 73 Question 35. A catalogue of Canadian
10 ethnocultural music recordings should be part of a
11 catalogue of all music recordings made in Canada.
12 Accordingly, it should be compiled, maintained and
13 financed by those who catalogue Canadian recordings in
14 general.
15 74 Respectfully submitted on behalf of
16 the Ukrainian National Federation of Canada.
17 75 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much
18 for your contribution today. I would just like to add,
19 before we move to the next presenter, that your
20 response to Question 17 is probably one of the most
21 succinctly put answers ever received by the Commission.
22 76 Thank you again.
23 77 Excuse me, Commissioner Langford
24 would like to ask a short question.
25 78 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I don't want
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1 to open a big bad door here, but in your introductory
2 remarks you indicated that a new broadcasting policy in
3 your view should not be seen as charity or a favour.
4 Is that the way the present broadcasting policy is
5 viewed in your opinion?
6 79 MS DIAKOWSKY: You know, we seem to
7 constantly be explaining ourselves as something outside
8 the Canadian mainstream. We're not. Even when ethnic
9 broadcasting is presented as something, you know,
10 beyond those that are currently looked upon as the
11 Canadians and we are the ethnics. We are Canadians
12 with an ethnic background and we would like to be
13 treated as such and to be considered very much part of
14 the mainstream, with the exception of course that we do
15 need some special help.
16 80 I don't know how many of you have
17 tried to raise a bilingual child. It is not a negative
18 thing for Canada. It is an amazing thing for Canada.
19 Can you imagine what it would mean for Toronto hold the
20 Olympics and to be able within its own borders call
21 upon its citizens to host all of the different
22 languages that will be coming to this city, if such a
23 thing could happen. We have never been looked upon as
24 something extremely positive within the Canadian milieu
25 and we are. We are.
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1 81 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thank you
2 very much.
3 82 MS RHÉAUME: Could I ask you to read
4 your name into the record, please.
5 83 MS DIAKOWSKY: Yes. My name is Daria
6 Diakowsky.
7 84 MS RHÉAUME: Thank you.
8 85 THE CHAIRPERSON: Madam Secretary,
9 would you like to call the next participant.
10 86 MS RHÉAUME: The next presentation is
11 by Mr. Bora Dragasevich, Producer and Program Director.
12 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
13 87 MR. DRAGASEVICH: My report is
14 structured on the request of CHIN radio station and
15 does not have 36 points.
16 88 My name is Bora Dragasevich and I am
17 here in my capacity as producer and program director of
18 the Serbian radio program Radio Sumadija, which is
19 aired every Saturday evening from 7:30 to 8:30 p.m.
20 over CHIN Radio, 100.7 FM in Toronto.
21 89 I have held this responsibility for
22 28 years. I am also one of the founds of the Canadian
23 Serbian Club of Toronto which sponsors our program.
24 90 I was a school teacher in my youth
25 and I have worked as a mechanical technologicist with
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1 Ontario Hydro where I was employed for 36 years. For
2 the past 15 years I have enjoyed retirement.
3 91 Background to Radio Sumadija. The
4 Canadian Serbian Club of Toronto very early recognized
5 the need for ethnocultural programming for the large
6 Canadian-Serbian community in the Golden Horseshoe
7 region. We were fortunate to become part of CHIN
8 Radio, thereby reaching the Serbian community in major
9 centres where Serbs lived, Niagara Falls, St.
10 Catharines, Brantford, Hamilton, Kitchener, Oakville,
11 Mississauga, Toronto, Oshawa, Whitby and east to
12 Peterborough and west to London. Thanks to CHIN's
13 access to the ANIK satellite Radio Sumadija also is
14 listened to in Sudbury and in Florida, Ohio, Michigan,
15 just to mention a few places. Our listening audience
16 has been estimated in the range between 60,000 to
17 100,000.
18 92 Our audience. Since its very first
19 broadcast on May 24, 1970, almost 29 years ago, Radio
20 Sumadija has been a community based bilingual
21 Serbian-English language program. In fact, it is still
22 the only bilingual program serving the Canadian-Serbian
23 community. Approximately two-thirds of the program is
24 in Serbian and one-third in English, a successful blend
25 which acknowledges the different degrees of integration
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1 of the Serbian community into Canadian society with
2 English serving as a bridge.
3 93 The rationale for having a bilingual
4 program was, first, to reach the primary audience of
5 persons who speak the Serbian language.
6 94 Second, to reach young Canadians of
7 Serbian heritage who are more comfortable and fluent in
8 English, but who remain connected to their Serbian
9 heritage and who maintain an interest in the heritage
10 of their forefathers.
11 95 Third, to reach some listeners who
12 are not of Serbian origin and, fourth, to reach
13 families and the old and the young.
14 96 In fact, as a producer I have heard
15 from persons of many backgrounds who have tuned into
16 Radio Sumadija. Among them are Italians, Poles, West
17 Indians, Slovines, Croats, Macedonians, Greeks and
18 mainstream Canadians. They may tune in to the sound of
19 Serbian music or to learn about our culture and
20 community events.
21 97 Since its inception in the spring of
22 1970, our one-hour program has been broadcast live and
23 not pre-taped. Thus it brings the most
24 up-to-the-minute information to the community. Radio
25 Sumadija is a labour of love. All the speakers, and I
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1 as the producer, volunteer our time to ensure that our
2 Serbian heritage is broadcast to the community. Our
3 team of speakers arrive from great distance through all
4 kinds of weather. All are university graduates and
5 professionals who are dedicated to the retention of our
6 Serbian culture and language within the mosaic of
7 Canadian society.
8 98 Among the English speakers who have
9 grown up listening to Radio Sumadija, our radio team of
10 volunteer speakers has been acknowledged with the
11 Ontario Voluntary Service Awards for periods of serving
12 from five years to 25 years plus.
13 99 What kind of information do we
14 deliver during our broadcast? Radio Sumadija
15 programming includes a wide variety; announcements of
16 community events in the entire region sponsored by our
17 churches or by community organizations, lectures,
18 exhibits, concerts, job announcements, humanitarian
19 activities. We report the activities of our youth and
20 the student groups, folklore and cultural groups,
21 sports teams, choirs, women's groups, political groups.
22 We offer news and commentaries on events happening
23 overseas. We announce cross-cultural events of
24 interest, such as conferences, boards, sponsored by the
25 Greek and Armenian communities. We offer reviews of
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1 the latest books published in Serbian or English about
2 the Serbs, all of interest to them.
3 100 Newcomers are attracted to listening
4 LINC and TOEFL classes. Radio Sumadija has presented
5 overviews of Serbian literature, history, religion and
6 customs in both languages. We bring news of Canadian
7 government initiatives, such as changes in the
8 Immigration and Citizenship Act. We draw to the
9 attention of our audience upcoming mainstream
10 television and radio programs which may be of interest
11 to them.
12 101 We announce CHIN sponsored and other
13 general interest multicultural events; the CHIN picnic
14 or Christmas Around the World.
15 102 On a more personal note, we broadcast
16 song dedications celebrating family events, as well as
17 obituaries. We also announce events of ethnocultural
18 interest happening elsewhere in Canada, such as the
19 dedication of the new Serbian Community Centre in
20 Vancouver; the latest exhibit of the Serbian Heritage
21 Museum in Windsor, or the conference on Canadian unity
22 held in Vancouver, plus we have commercial ads which
23 advertise the services of our community business
24 people. All these different features serve a wide
25 variety of listening audience.
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1 103 I firmly believe that there is a
2 concrete need for programming such as ours directed to
3 an ethnocultural group because it offers both
4 information and entertainment. It harmonizes the
5 various regions and activities of the community
6 creating a network of interest and supports, and it
7 reaches out with something for everyone. It also
8 assists newcomers bridge the gap between the homeland
9 which they have left and their new home in Canada when
10 they hear the familiar and learn about the new.
11 104 Being the multicultural country that
12 Canada is, may I use this comparison, a beautiful
13 Christmas cake in which every ethnic group contributes
14 its share to enhance the flavour of the cake. The
15 dough which binds this Christmas cake is made of two
16 founding nations, French and English, together with the
17 original Canadian inhabitants, our native people.
18 105 All ethnic groups contribute to the
19 embellishment of Canadian culture by their own cultural
20 contribution. Just as the fruits and nuts are blended
21 together for the full flavour of the Canadian Christmas
22 cake, this imagine of the Christmas cake represents the
23 harmonization of many cultures which make up Canada.
24 106 Multiculturalism is an inherent
25 characteristic of Canadian society, entrenched with the
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1 passage of the Multiculturalism Act and reflects 47 per
2 cent of the total Canadian population.
3 107 The question which has been asked
4 frequently is: Does multiculturalism contribute to
5 Canadian unity or to the Balkanization of the Canadian
6 nation? I am fully convinced that no ethnocultural
7 group in Canada is working against Canadian unity.
8 This was proven during the recent Quebec referendum
9 when the future of Canada was decided by the ethnic
10 vote. So too Canadians of Serbian heritage contributed
11 to Canada's culture and development and Canadian unity.
12 108 Our future programming. The Serbian
13 radio program strongly believes that it is in the
14 public interest to have a station such as CHIN which
15 enhances and contributes to the Canadian mosaic and the
16 quality of our Canadian society. Over almost three
17 decades of broadcasting our program it has become
18 almost a Canadian institution which has kept up with
19 the times by offering something of interest to all age
20 groups.
21 109 The immense population growth in the
22 Serbian community over the past decade in particular,
23 ensures the continuing need for such programming for
24 the ethnocultural group.
25 110 Regular financial support from our
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1 community ensures the continuation of our broadcasts.
2 However, within the domain of the federal government
3 multicultural legislation and Canadian heritage
4 founding programs, it would be helpful if the federal
5 government made more funding available to stations such
6 as CHIN to ensure the continuity of ethnocultural
7 broadcasting. This financial support could then be
8 passed down to the individual programs which currently
9 pay sizeable hourly fees, $600 per hour.
10 111 At the same time, ethnocultural
11 communities in smaller cities would welcome access to
12 ethnocultural broadcasting in their language. Thus, we
13 believe, it would be advantageous to expand CHIN
14 broadcast territory to reach London, Windsor and other
15 cities.
16 112 Conclusion. Thanks to its long
17 affiliation with CHIN Radio, Radio Sumadija has earned
18 its place as a Serbian/Canadian institution. God
19 willing we hope to continue to broadcast our program
20 for many, many years.
21 113 I thank you for this opportunity to
22 make this presentation on behalf of the Serbian radio
23 program Sumadija. Thank you.
24 114 THE CHAIRPERSON: We thank you, Mr.
25 Dragasevich. You obviously have a long experience in
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1 this area.
2 115 MR. DRAGASEVICH: Twenty-nine years.
3 I am also the editor of the newspaper and I am also a
4 member of the Canadian Ethnocultural Council, CEC,
5 which held meetings a couple of days ago, last Saturday
6 and Sunday, right in Toronto.
7 116 THE CHAIRPERSON: We appreciate your
8 passion.
9 117 MR. DRAGASEVICH: Thank you.
10 118 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
11 119 Madam Secretary.
12 120 MS RHÉAUME: The next speaker is Mr.
13 Bill Fatsis, Vice-President of Odyssey Television
14 Network.
15 121 MR. FATSIS: Thank you.
16 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
17 122 MR. FATSIS: Commissioners,
18 Commission staff and members of the public, I am
19 pleased to appear before you today.
20 123 My name is Bill Fatsis and I am the
21 Vice-President of Odyssey Television, a digital Greek
22 language program undertaking licensed by the Commission
23 in September, 1996. To my left is Odyssey's
24 Vice-President for Corporate Affairs and Legal Matters,
25 Mr. Jack Prattas.
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1 124 Although Odyssey will be part in a
2 written submission to the Commission later on this
3 month, we appreciate the opportunity to participate in
4 these consultation hearings today in the Commission's
5 review of ethnic broadcasting.
6 125 We believe the current framework has
7 been critical to the development of distinctive
8 Canadian ethnic services. While at this time we have a
9 few suggestions aimed at refining this policy, we are
10 here today primarily to gain the perspective of viewers
11 and listeners.
12 126 Before we do that, we are proud to
13 report that Odyssey launched in December, 1998. The
14 service is currently available via the direct-to-home
15 undertaking, StarChoice, and in some areas of the Shaw
16 Cable system, primarily in Ontario.
17 127 The past two and a half years have
18 been agonizingly difficult for Odyssey due to its
19 frustration to find any distribution space among
20 Canada's main cable and DTH distribution undertakings.
21 It is an area to which the Commission must focus as it
22 reviews ethnic broadcasting. We wish, however, to
23 express in a public way our appreciation and thanks
24 primarily to StarChoice and Shaw Cable for literally
25 saving Odyssey from being totally devoured by "grey and
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1 black market" Greek TV distributed to Canada via
2 American DTH undertakings.
3 128 With the introduction of digital
4 technology, which gave birth to the much awaited
5 opportunity for third-language communities to be served
6 fully and completely with their own TV channels, we
7 believe ethnic services should be provided the same
8 access to distribution systems as other specialty
9 services in the general community.
10 129 "Grey and black market" products are
11 a very serious threat to the very existence of
12 third-language program undertakings. These products
13 are allowed freely to advertise in the Canadian ethnic
14 markets, including in Canada's mainstream CRTC
15 licensees which are allowed to carry ethnic
16 programming.
17 130 The CRTC's present policy, in our
18 opinion, is almost totally inadequate to deal with this
19 serious problem facing all specialty programmers and
20 most specifically the more vulnerable ethnic
21 programming undertakings. In recent weeks and months,
22 these grey-market products seek other avenues through
23 Canada's distribution undertakings which plan to
24 sponsor them on the eligible satellite list.
25 131 We strongly support, therefore, the
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1 Commission's current approach which refuses to add a
2 foreign service to the list of eligible satellite
3 services which would be competitive with any Canadian
4 specialty service. This continued protection is
5 crucial to the viability of Canadian ethnic
6 programming.
7 132 Furthermore, Canada's cultural
8 minority communities must be afforded more time to
9 apply for their own specialty service before a foreign
10 service is allowed to be added on the list. Also,
11 preference must be given for such foreign service
12 through regulatory framework to seek partnership with
13 existing Canadian programming licensees for that
14 specific language program.
15 133 We do not view the development of a
16 national conventional ethnic network as being in the
17 best interest of ethnic viewers or the Canadian
18 broadcasting system. Their existence, even on a
19 regional basis, was based on the CRTC's past inability
20 to license a single language ethnic service due to
21 scarcity of broadcast frequencies afforded by analog
22 technologies.
23 134 We believe that with the transition
24 to digital the opportunity should be provided to each
25 ethnic community to develop a service which best suits
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1 its needs. The creation of a national network reflects
2 an approach to ethnic broadcasting whose day has long
3 since passed.
4 135 Like all Canadians, ethnic viewers
5 want to access a variety of programming in their
6 language of choice, available at times to suit their
7 schedule. This variety may be best served with full
8 single-language Canadian services and not by a national
9 multiethnic network, the economics of which on a
10 regional basis have proven to be either a failure -- or
11 for most languages needing subsidization by mainstream
12 programming -- or to be very unstable.
13 136 Finally, we believe the current
14 policy framework has been critical in the development o
15 Canadian ethnic services and that it continues to be a
16 valuable and important component of our broadcasting
17 system.
18 137 Accordingly, it is our view that the
19 focus of this review should be on refining the existing
20 policy in order to ensure it continues to serve
21 Canadians and the Canadian broadcasting system.
22 138 We look forward to listening to the
23 remaining submissions over the next two days and would
24 be pleased to answer any questions the Commission may
25 have.
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1 139 Thank you.
2 140 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I have a
3 question, sir, if I might. I am very interested in
4 your views on the national conventional ethnic network,
5 its time has gone and I think I listened to you closely
6 and I think I made careful notes, but there will be a
7 transcript.
8 141 I wonder what solutions you would
9 have for some of the smaller, though, broadcasters who
10 are struggling and of course could rely on something
11 like a national ethnic approach, obviously, to come in
12 on the coattails of their stronger brothers in
13 broadcasting or whatever, what advice would you have --
14 142 THE CHAIRPERSON: Or sisters.
15 143 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Brothers and
16 sisters, of course.
17 144 MR. FATSIS: Yes, indeed.
18 145 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: What advice
19 would you have in that area?
20 146 MR. FATSIS: Yes, Commissioner
21 Langford. Many times we have dealt with this question
22 among the other ethnic specialty services and, indeed,
23 it's a very interesting question.
24 147 We believe that the measure as it is
25 now and as it should be is the market forces that
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1 should advocate whether a digital ethnic service should
2 survive or a conventional on their broadcasting system.
3 Therefore, for the smaller communities that their
4 market cannot support them, we think that a joint
5 application between two or three languages might be the
6 solution, something that has proven to be effective,
7 especially in the first years by Telelatino with the
8 split language carriage that they have between Italian
9 and Spanish-speaking programs.
10 148 Of course, in the station experience
11 it is a lot easier because the common language is that
12 of English, so you know, many cultures, many minority
13 groups can be adequately served without licence, but we
14 believe that a joint application might be the solution
15 in the future for the smaller communities.
16 149 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thanks very
17 much.
18 150 MR. FATSIS: Thank you.
19 151 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very
20 much, Mr. Fatsis.
21 152 Madam Secretary, if you would call
22 the next party.
23 153 MS RHÉAUME: The next speaker is Mr.
24 Raghbir Samagh.
25 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
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1 154 MR. SAMAGH: Commissioners, ladies
2 and gentlemen, thank you very much for allowing me to
3 appear before the Commission on a matter that concerns
4 the ethnocultural community of Canada. The issues
5 before the Commission are crucial to the broadcast
6 industry, the ethnocultural communities and the country
7 as a whole.
8 155 My name is Raghbir Singh Samagh. I
9 migrated to Canada in 1965 as the vice-principal of a
10 high school. I have seen the community develop,
11 especially the south Asian, for the last 34 years.
12 156 I am the producer of Gurbani TV
13 program on Vision TV since 1990, the only Sikh
14 religious program which is run on a non-commercial,
15 non-profitable and non-political basis.
16 157 I am a volunteer member of the board
17 of directors of South Asian Family Support Services and
18 Elspeth Heyworth Centre for Women since 1989. We deal
19 with senior citizens, family conflict, battered women
20 and the generation gap.
21 158 I am here to deal with only three
22 specific issues which have come to my notice through
23 our clients. One is the adequacy of the broadcast
24 industry to serve the ethnocultural community. The
25 second question is the effect of demographic changes
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1 and how to cope with this change and serve the
2 ever-changing Canadian community. The third is the
3 development of the Canadian ethnocultural talent versus
4 the foreign services to serve the ethnocultural
5 communities.
6 159 The adequacy of the program and the
7 industry is a debatable point. IN 1973 when the first
8 Asian program came on CITY-TV for half an hour, the
9 Asian community elevated it to itself. The program was
10 initiated by Mr. Shan Chandrasekar.
11 160 One thing is definitely sure, that
12 TV, radio and the print media is the one that helps
13 immigrants to be good Canadians as well as good
14 Indians, Polish, Greeks, Punjabis, Muslims, Hindus and
15 so on and that is what the Canadian multicultural
16 policy advocates.
17 161 We in Canada can be good Canadians as
18 well as good Sikhs, and this is a privilege which is
19 available only in Canada. I don't think that there is
20 any other wonderful policy in the world.
21 162 The South Asian community especially
22 is very grateful to the Commission when the Commission
23 realized the need of the service to the South Asian
24 community and granted a broadcasting licence to the
25 Asian Television Network in 1996. The whole community
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1 was most happy to get the service and did not even
2 think about paying $14.95 price per month as a premium.
3 163 But their gratitude changed to
4 frustration when they could not get the service due to
5 the following reasons, and these reasons have come from
6 other community groups and all those.
7 164 One, the extra change the cable
8 companies demand for the box rentals, which makes that
9 $14.95 to $30 per month approximately.
10 165 Then, on top when a customer asks for
11 the Asian channel he has to buy a basic service. It
12 may cost $5. It may cost $7. It may cost $10
13 depending upon the cable company.
14 166 Those people who are living in
15 multiple units, apartment buildings, are at the mercy
16 of the landlords, are at the mercy of the owners
17 because the access is not there for them on the basis
18 either due to the contract with the cable company or
19 the refusal by the landlord to put the antenna dish at
20 the appropriate point in the apartment or the building.
21 167 Then, especially for senior citizens
22 who are the most lonely group especially in the
23 community, financial restrictions lie there for those
24 who are living independently and those who are living
25 dependently they have to go to their sponsoring
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1 children.
2 168 But we have found out that the
3 satisfaction of the service is the most where the local
4 cable companies have provided the Asian channel on the
5 basic cable package.
6 169 Regarding the effects of the
7 demographic changes and how to cope with them, you
8 don't need to be a genius to see the changing patterns
9 of population. You walk on Yonge Street or you go to a
10 shopping mall and you see real Canada. There are 160
11 countries that are being represented in the Greater
12 Toronto Area. There are 100 languages which are being
13 spoken in the Greater Toronto Area.
14 170 Twenty years back, 25 or 20 years
15 back, nobody could ever imagine that a turbaned Sikh
16 will be a Member of Parliament. Nobody could think
17 than a South Asian origin person would be the Revenue
18 Minister of Canada. Nobody could even dream that
19 Punjabi will be the second most spoken language in the
20 Peel Region, French in Halton, Chinese in Toronto,
21 Italian in York and French in Durham.
22 171 The ethnocultural community is a part
23 and parcel of Canadian culture. This is a reality.
24 They are proud of the TV/radio programs they own,
25 whether it is Italian, whether it is Greek or South
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1 Asian.
2 172 South Asians are proud of ATN. It is
3 a window through which they and their children relate
4 to their cultural heritage, customs and traditions.
5 The elders connect themselves to the land of their
6 origin through news, documentaries and other features
7 of the programs provided by the channel.
8 173 ATN is proud of the service it offers
9 to the community and the community is grateful to ATN
10 for the service it provides in terms of PSA's covering
11 of the community functions and then broadcasting them
12 without any financial burden to the community
13 organizations.
14 174 The South Asian community is very
15 much sure that the local production of ATN will
16 increase, thus providing the opportunity to the younger
17 generation to be part and parcel of the ethnocultural
18 broadcasting industry. Canada is a land of
19 opportunity, irrespective of cast, creed, origin, race
20 or religion.
21 175 The third point which I would like to
22 bring to the notice of the Commission is the
23 development of the local ethnic talent and the foreign
24 programming being brought or to be brought. I am
25 speaking of this from my own experience.
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1 176 About 25 years back there was a
2 Canada Day and the organizers were scrambling to find
3 some Asian group to dance. There was UNO day and there
4 was a group in Toronto in Nathan Phillips Square and it
5 was 1970 and they are looking for groups, dancers,
6 singers and the different type of costumes so that they
7 could represent the United Nations, but it is not -- it
8 is different now. It is different because every
9 ethnocultural community has developed into such a group
10 that there is a talent of singers, there is a talent of
11 artists, there is a talent of performers and those are
12 at this moment scrambling to expose themselves to take
13 part into the cultural programmings of the
14 ethno-cultural broadcasters.
15 177 They need a chance and if any
16 broadcaster on television is given the encouragement to
17 bring the talent, bring the talent from outside, the
18 programming from outside, where will these people go?
19 178 The community as a whole demands and
20 the broadcaster as an industry has a responsibility to
21 bring those people in. For example, for the South
22 Asian community it is time to produce a Hindi movie, a
23 Punjabi movie, a Punjabi drama, a Hindi drama produced
24 in Canada, not brought in from India and not brought
25 from anywhere else.
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1 179 With this it will not only be harmful
2 to the community, but it will be harmful to the
3 broadcaster because it will be a rope around the neck.
4 180 So, therefore, depending upon taking
5 all these things into consideration, the ethnocultural
6 talent, the ethnic culture drama, movies and art at
7 this moment requires the same protection, requires the
8 same chance to develop and grow as the English and the
9 French has done so far. It will be a boon to those
10 people, I am talking about the Asian community -- the
11 South Asian community, which comprises of basically
12 people from India, Bangladesh, Sir Lanka, Pakistan and
13 all these people.
14 181 Those languages which are coming from
15 Pakistan they have to be developed because no matter
16 from where we come, whether we come from Pakistan or
17 from India or Ukraine or all that, we still want to
18 keep the link. We still want to keep the language. We
19 still want to keep the traditions, but we want to be
20 good Canadians.
21 182 Thank you very much.
22 183 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very
23 much, Mr. Samagh.
24 184 MS RHÉAUME: The next presenter is
25 Mr. Subramanian from the Bharathi Kala Manram.
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1 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
2 185 MR. SUBRAMANIAN: Good afternoon,
3 respected panellists of the CRTC, distinguished guests,
4 ladies and gentlemen.
5 186 It is a privilege to have been asked
6 to address the CRTC panellists this day on a subject
7 that is so vital to the well-being of some the half a
8 million or more members of ethnocultural groups who
9 have settled down in Canada over the past three
10 decades. I am talking about the Asian groups. We
11 mention that while the majority of these have migrated
12 from the Asian continent, there are also people from
13 South Africa, Guyana, Sri Lanka, Trinidad, et cetera,
14 so they are coming from all different parts of the
15 globe.
16 187 I will introduce myself. My name is
17 Narain Ram Subramanian. Most commonly people know me
18 as Ramamani and it is the family name. Me and my wife
19 Lakshmy Subramanian, my son Raja and his wife Janaki re
20 all proud Canadian citizens. We are in Canada for more
21 than 23 years now. We migrated from India.
22 188 I worked 20-plus years for the
23 Ontario government and, among other things, was myself
24 involved in public hearings all over Ontario on issues
25 relating to occupational health and safety. My wife,
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1 son and daughter-in-law are all part of the Canadian
2 workforce, paying their due share of taxes, et cetera.
3 189 For almost 15 years now, in addition
4 to my regular office work, I have been involved very
5 actively with community work, charity and fundraising
6 activities such as the United Way, cancer research and
7 so many others, and also social work in terms of
8 religious/cultural affiliations.
9 190 I have been an office bearer of
10 Bharathi Kala Manram, a registered not for profit
11 cultural organization since 1985. For the past four
12 years I am the President of this prestigious
13 organization. Bharathi Kala Manram, which was
14 established in 1969, so we are in the 30th year, is one
15 of the premier cultural organizations serving a number
16 of communities in terms of its activities to promote
17 and present performing arts in both classical music and
18 classical dance originating essential from India.
19 191 On an average, 20 high-profile events
20 are put on stage and the annual attendance is around
21 20,000 people. Manram works closely with all three
22 levels of government in Canada and has received
23 Grants-in-Aid from all of them. We have a regular
24 operating fund coming from Metropolitan Toronto, now
25 the City of Toronto. In addition, Manram collaborates
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1 with other cultural organizations, including the
2 Harbourfront Centre which is a separately supported
3 system, in promoting harmony among peoples through arts
4 and culture.
5 192 Another hat that I wear is I am the
6 Secretary for the past three years of the Hindu Temple
7 Society of Canada in Richmond Hill, Ontario. I have
8 been a director on this temple's board for the past
9 nine years. The Hindu Temple Society of Canada, also
10 known as Ganesa Temple, is one of the largest highly
11 traditional Hindu temples in the North American
12 continent and it has a membership list of over 15,000
13 people of all faiths, the majority being Hindus. I say
14 this, other faiths, because there are so many other
15 faith groups which come and worship in our place
16 because they like the worships or the way we do things.
17 193 Among other duties, I am actively
18 involved in taking groups of students of all ages,
19 seniors and other people from all faiths on a tour of
20 the temple and explain aspects of Hinduism and the
21 services we offer at the temple. I make mention of
22 this because I want to establish how I have a contact
23 with so many other different communities and a large
24 number of people.
25 194 In terms of my association with
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1 Bharathi Kala Manram and the Hindu Temple, I
2 practically come in contact over the years with over
3 100,000 people, mostly belonging to the ethnocultural
4 denomination and know their social/cultural bends.
5 195 Having stated my social/cultural
6 background, I now turn to the aspects of this hearing.
7 I would like to make the following submissions. I am
8 essentially making three points which I thought were
9 the crucial points that were enunciated by this body.
10 196 The service rendered to the
11 ethnocultural communities or the third-language groups,
12 or the same, by the existing broadcasting system is
13 deficient and needs to be revamped. The reasons for
14 this simple statement are this:
15 197 Lots of changes have taken place
16 demographically over the past few years; more and more
17 immigrants from the Asian continent and Sri Lanka have
18 come in. The number of seniors has grown steeply and
19 many of them have no knowledge of English or French.
20 The population of ethnocultural communities is widely
21 spread out in Canada.
22 198 Now, one media report was that we
23 have 47 per cent of visible minorities in Toronto.
24 That talks for the ratios that are now being
25 established.
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1 199 The needs of this large group in
2 terms of radio and TV programs and coverage is great
3 and varied. Many of them have no access -- I read the
4 words, no access to these facilities because of two
5 factors: one, the high cost of the cable service
6 system. This high cost has been explained by the
7 speaker who was here before. He explained the cost
8 factors involved in the cable system. And, two, the
9 high cost of dishes in addition to the impossibility of
10 setting up dishes in residences other than
11 privately-owned homes. I mean this factor has been
12 established by the previous speaker.
13 200 Almost 90 per cent of the
14 ethnocultural people live in apartments, so that adds
15 to the number of people who have no access or very
16 little access to the cable system or the programs for
17 which they look.
18 201 Cable system operators have no
19 sympathy toward these groups because they seem to be
20 happy working with the mainstream population, which
21 perhaps is economical enough.
22 202 Now, I want to state -- bring forward
23 one or two examples here. Being part of the group,
24 Bharathi Kala Manram, where we put in a minimum of 20
25 events a year, some of them highly profile ones, that
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1 whenever we have a big program and we invite either the
2 CBC or the CTV or any other major TV groups, the first
3 question is: Is the minister coming? Then we say we
4 don't have a minister coming, then they don't respond
5 to our request any more. So that has become a
6 political issue, whether a minister comes then you get
7 a service. If the minister doesn't come, you have no
8 service. So, that is the deplorable situation that we
9 are in.
10 203 Now, item three, around 1996 this
11 body, the CRTC, granted an exclusive channel for
12 multicultural broadcasting to the Asian Television
13 Network and we were all very happy for this because we
14 thought that was going to serve us in a big way. Of
15 course, over the past three years ATN or Asian
16 Television Network has made grade strides to serve the
17 diverse multicultural communities all over Canada,
18 especially in Toronto. They are still developing, as
19 far as I know. However, its efforts to serve the vast
20 majority of ethnocultural people have been thwarted by
21 reasons that I have indicated in item two above, that
22 the TV channels won't work with them in a way that will
23 benefit the communities that ATN is serving. Thus, you
24 pay for the basic cable and then you pay for the
25 third-language broadcasting and then you pay again for
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1 the special converter. So these are all the added up
2 costs which many people and, as I say, especially the
3 seniors and the people in the low-income groups cannot
4 afford. So that is where I was telling that they are
5 the first to do something to the benefit of the
6 community they serve have been thwarted by this sort of
7 systems which are there.
8 204 I don't want to say anything else
9 about that particular system because it is very clear
10 what I am trying to say.
11 205 In order for ATN to grow to its full
12 capacity and potential, the CRTC and other government
13 agencies have to work hard to remove the obstacles that
14 exist currently. Also, the CRTC should hold on to the
15 current moratorium in terms of not importing foreign
16 services because such imported services may only do lip
17 service because it is my belief that they cannot serve
18 because they are not part of this ground. They are not
19 part of the Canadian mosaic. They are from the States
20 or from anywhere else. All their service is limited in
21 a way that it is a money-making situation. So, that is
22 why they cannot serve the needs of the population that
23 is here.
24 206 Such services will definitely impair
25 the development and projection of Canadian-made
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1 programs that are so important to our multicultural
2 mosaic.
3 207 Now, we all know and it has been
4 openly declared that Canada is a multicultural society,
5 or it has a big image all over the world as being a
6 mini-world, that is that all the population groups and
7 if there was a catastrophe and the whole world died and
8 Canada remained, I mean you still have all the species
9 here and that is how I project my point of view. So,
10 this is a place where all the cultural groups, the
11 language groups, all people are assembled in this one
12 country, I mean Canada. Every other country cannot be
13 said in the same bracket. You take England, you take
14 any other country and although there may be some other
15 communities, but there are restrictions, there is no
16 freedom as we have here.
17 208 So, it is necessary that the growth
18 of local TV programs and other coverages be
19 strengthened, they be given the necessary incentives to
20 grow. It will be in the interests of Canada because we
21 always say that we need the Canadian content.
22 209 Going back to my own organization, we
23 are developing so many young students in classical
24 music and dance areas and we are in a position to make
25 our own concerts and dance groups and other cultural
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1 public performances or performing arts, but we don't
2 have the needed support system to cover those programs.
3 210 Actually, I am on the advisory board
4 of the A Space Gallery and they are doing a biennial
5 2000 in the year 2000, that is next year, and that is
6 going to serve all of Ontario and all the programs will
7 be conducted by local groups. There are no imported
8 programs. In that particular situation my advice to
9 this committee was never mind what you do. You are to
10 arrange for people to do their performances and all
11 that and the communities will work, but what kind of
12 coverage you have for these. If it is an Indian
13 program, how does the Italian community know about
14 that? We don't have the system in place to cover all
15 those things, like TV coverage or any other coverage
16 and that is what we need today.
17 211 The third-language group or the
18 ethnocultural people, they need more services in terms
19 of serving their needs and in that reference I also say
20 that the Asian Television Network has been a yeoman's
21 service to the communities that are involved in this
22 and their growth potential should be looked at first
23 before any other schemes are put in to bring in other
24 programs.
25 212 When I was talking about
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1 third-language group I was also including other groups
2 like the Italians, the Chinese and others who have been
3 included and we have talked about previously.
4 213 I think that brings my presentation
5 to a close. I will close my presentation now and I
6 thank you for your attention. Thank you.
7 214 I am available for any questions.
8 215 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very
9 much, Mr. Subramanian.
10 216 MR. SUBRAMANIAN: Thank you.
11 217 MS RHÉAUME: The next speaker is Mr.
12 Eugene Duvalko, Executive Director of the Canadian
13 Ukrainian Immigrant Aid Society.
14 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
15 218 MR. DUVALKO: Thank you.
16 219 Good evening. I would like to thank
17 the Commissioners and their staff for allowing us the
18 opportunity of presenting our comments on the current
19 state of ethnic radio, television programming and the
20 CRTC policies.
21 220 As mentioned, my name is Eugene
22 Duvalko. I am the Executive Director of the Canadian
23 Ukrainian Immigrant Aid Society, but also this evening,
24 and I guess it's evening already or well on its way, I
25 would like to present my views based on my experience
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1 as a co-host of Radio Minietest (ph) radio show in the
2 mid-1980s.
3 221 The Canadian Ukrainian Immigrant
4 Society is a non-profit community based organization
5 founded in 1974 and incorporated in 1977. It is
6 supported by the well-established Ukrainian Canadian
7 community in Toronto and we have fairly good links and
8 a close relationship with other Ukrainian communities
9 across Canada. We are run by an elected board of
10 directors and I am responsible for the management of
11 the day-to-day business.
12 222 What we do. We decided or we have
13 chosen as a mission to provide the best possible
14 settlement services for newcomers to Canada, including
15 pre-arrival information and a comprehensive range of
16 essential services and to guide clients towards
17 successful long-term integration into Canada. We work
18 with family reunification, family and refugee
19 sponsorship.
20 223 We have also made it a point of our
21 mission to create a link between the Ukrainian-Canadian
22 organizations and mainstream agencies that exist that
23 are sensitive to newcomer needs and to build these
24 links into a partnership between newcomers and their
25 hosts.
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1 224 We are also willing to work with
2 other service providers and governments to ensure that
3 the acceptance and settlement of newcomers is fair,
4 equitable and reflective of Canada's and the clients'
5 needs.
6 225 Although CUIAS was initially
7 established to serve the Ukrainian-speaking immigrants,
8 we have over time had the opportunity to provide
9 service for many immigrants from eastern Europe,
10 Byelorussia, Russia, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia,
11 Poland, Bosnia, Croatia, Yugoslavia, the Balkans and
12 central Europe. We have several English classes on two
13 sites and we deal with an increasingly multi-ethnic
14 client group.
15 226 The reason why I mention these
16 criteria is to pass on to you that we are dealing or we
17 have dealt with as our clients people who are consumers
18 of the ethnic medium, radio and television. In
19 carrying out our mandate we also are consumers of the
20 ethnic radio and television medium.
21 227 Our agency is heavily involved with
22 the ethnic community. This community is responsible
23 for our creation as an agency and is responsible for
24 the agency's capacity and ability to help newcomers
25 arrive to Canada. As an agency we have used the ethnic
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1 media for advertising, promoting, informing and also to
2 reaching out to clients and supporters. I believe a
3 great measure of our fundraising campaigns are
4 successful based on the fact that there is an ethnic
5 media available for us to reach clients to get our
6 message across.
7 228 We deal with some 1,500 newcomers per
8 year that take advantage of our client services. Now,
9 if we sum that over the last 20 years there is a
10 significant number of potential consumers of ethnic
11 medium and, in fact, these immigrants and also the many
12 thousands of visitors that visit Canada from the
13 Ukraine every year rely on ethnic programming for much
14 of their information initially. They rely on this
15 information to find out what social events, cultural
16 events, some local news, international news and
17 all-Canadian news.
18 229 As an agency, we have come to rely on
19 ethnic medium to outreach to our potential clients.
20 This is one of our strategic vehicles of reaching
21 precisely the people that we feel we can best help.
22 Other than having somebody on sort of a greeting stand
23 at the airport, it is very hard to reach and help these
24 people who are trying to make a new life in Canada and
25 are very grateful that there is an agency such as
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1 ourselves. So, it is the link that we have with our
2 clients.
3 230 We have also noticed that the ethnic
4 medium, the radio and television and print, although we
5 are not talking about print this afternoon, is a
6 vital --
7 231 THE CHAIRPERSON: We don't regulate
8 that.
9 232 MR. DUVALKO: Pardon?
10 233 THE CHAIRPERSON: We don't regulate
11 that.
12 234 MR. DUVALKO: So we will stick to the
13 radio and television parts of the ethnic medium -- is a
14 vital component of ethnic economies. These are sort of
15 the unique goods and services available within a
16 particular ethnic group that exist in parallel to a
17 mainstream economy, particular foods, particular
18 services that are ethno specific rely on the ethnic
19 media as a vehicle of communication for spreading the
20 word of assisting in the exchange of those goods and
21 services.
22 235 I am not sure if any previous speaker
23 has addressed that, but I think media has an important
24 role in trying to be the medium of this economy.
25 236 Ethnic media also provides for better
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1 targeting of market segments. For example, our
2 agencies when we want to reach the older community, the
3 more established communities for support, we approach
4 one Ukrainian radio program. If we want to outreach to
5 clients who are newcomers to Canada, we will approach a
6 different -- a recent radio show and I think with our
7 improved technology market segmentation is not a
8 negative aspect. It's a positive aspect that you can
9 actually get to more precise -- you can get to your
10 target audience a lot more effectively.
11 237 The Ukrainian community is very
12 diverse in its interest, so a one size fits all
13 approach to programming will not apply -- does not
14 apply well to the Ukrainian community. Having a
15 flexible or a varied access to the medium has
16 encouraged the development of several new programs in
17 Ukrainian broadcasting that is interesting, innovative
18 and diverse.
19 238 We have noticed that our clients not
20 only watch or listen to the Ukrainian programs in
21 Toronto, but there is a spillover and an interest and
22 they follow what appears on the Polish, the Russian
23 shows. So there is an overlap between viewership and I
24 think that strengthens the multicultural aspect.
25 239 As an agency that encourages
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1 settlement in Canada and integration in Canada we are
2 very much in favour of locally produced programming and
3 feel that this should be a requirement in any
4 broadcasting licence.
5 240 Often I see this programming is of
6 better quality. It is done in a manner that is
7 consistent with the Canadian way of storytelling, uses
8 main corporates or has a higher chance of incorporating
9 the Canadian method of journalism and is also
10 reflective of our Canadian-based community.
11 241 But, however, I would find that there
12 is also a place for news programs from overseas from
13 the home country. Mainstream programming does not
14 provide enough news about the parts of the world that
15 certain Canadians have a particular interest and
16 connection. So, if we can sort of the Cancon sort of
17 split between local produced and foreign produced
18 content, we feel that the weighting should be heavily
19 placed on Canadian content, but not to the elimination
20 of overseas content.
21 242 On a policy level or more sort of a
22 philosophical level, I think that the CRTC must bolster
23 the aims and objectives of Canada's Multicultural Act
24 in its implementation of the ethnic media policy. The
25 Act gives us clear instructions to institutions such as
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1 the CRTC to foster and encourage development of a
2 multicultural rich fabric of Canadian society.
3 243 I want to conclude my brief notes to
4 the Commission, that it is the position of the Canadian
5 Ukrainian Immigrant Aid Society is that we want to see
6 the retention of programming in a primary language
7 services and maintain it as a requirement for an ethnic
8 broadcasting licence.
9 244 We are intrigued by the concept of
10 cross-cultural programming, but that should occur in
11 addition to services in a primary language.
12 245 That sums up our brief submission. I
13 thank you for your time and attention.
14 246 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very
15 much, Mr. Duvalko.
16 247 Commissioner Langford has a question
17 for you.
18 248 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I was
19 interested, sir, in your comments near the end about
20 the difficulty of any policy which might exclude
21 foreign content because you are having difficulty
22 filling with locally-produced content. Do you have any
23 more guides? We have heard other views about that from
24 other speakers, some differing from your own. Could
25 you flesh that out a little more? Do you have any
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1 sense of any kind of a split? Have you given it that
2 kind of thought in your mind? Are we looking at 60/40,
3 80/20. I don't want to pin you down, but how much
4 thought have you given to that?
5 249 MR. DUVALKO: My experience with
6 watching or consuming the ethnic -- the third-language
7 programming, Ukrainian third language programming that
8 you see in Toronto, that programming is limited because
9 there are only several hours per week of programming.
10 So, just by doing local news and the local interest
11 stories you have used up your whole hour of air time.
12 250 There isn't really room for what I
13 have seen in other programs showing films, whole movies
14 and so I guess we are biased more to what we can cram
15 in one hour of programming and my response would be
16 roughly two-thirds, one-third split in favour of local
17 programming and sort of cap it at one-third foreign
18 because the nature of our shows aren't vehicles for
19 longer cultural I guess films, foreign-made movies or
20 just downloading of foreign material.
21 251 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Sir, is the
22 real problem then you just need more time, I mean above
23 and beyond all things you just need access to more
24 time. Is that it?
25 252 MR. DUVALKO: More is better, or more
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1 is preferred, but of course with economic
2 considerations you can't.
3 253 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thank you.
4 254 MR. DUVALKO: Thank you very much.
5 255 MS RHÉAUME: Our next speaker is
6 Major Abbas of the Muslim Welfare Centre.
7 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
8 256 MR. ABBAS: To start with, I would
9 like to say a few words in Arabic.
10 --- Arabic spoken
11 257 MR. ABBAS: That means that I start
12 in the name of Allah, God.
13 258 My name is Mohammed Abbas, but
14 somehow I joined the army and that was during the
15 Second World War in 1943. I was commissioned as an
16 officer. So they started calling me Captain Abbas,
17 Lieutenant Abbas and now I am known as Major Abbas
18 because I retired from the Pakistan Army in 1970 and
19 since then I have been drawing a pension from the
20 government and sometimes I feel that I should give it
21 up, but I don't know what is going to happen in the
22 future. I have to think of that also.
23 259 So I have -- I mean since long I
24 adopted a motto that a service to humanity is a service
25 to Allah, that is a service to God. I don't think you
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1 all know, I have been walking around the globe and so
2 far I have walked over 10,000 kilometres, particularly
3 through the poor areas, the poor countries and slum
4 areas, to see how humanity is faring, I mean less
5 fortunate ones, how they are passing their time.
6 260 We are the fortunate ones. We are in
7 Canada. We have enough to lead a luxurious life, but
8 at the same time we have enough to spare some for the
9 less fortunate ones. So I have been roaming about. I
10 have been touring the world and by the grace of God I
11 was declared the first person in the modern world to
12 walk 2,500 kilometres alone across the Arabian Desert.
13 I have that honour, but that honour has been bestowed
14 upon me by Allah because what I do I do for humanity
15 and my motto being service to humanity is service to
16 God, so whatever I do to help humanity it goes to him.
17 261 Now to come down, I was walking and I
18 was on my way to China. I came here to Toronto, Canada
19 by walking and hitchhiking. I left Beshara, which is
20 the northern part of Pakistan and en route I was
21 helping the charitable organizations such as UNICEF. I
22 was a charity walker for them. I used to walk for
23 children. I used to walk for the needy and I used to
24 walk for everybody who needed my help and I did it.
25 262 When I came to Toronto I went
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1 straight to the Arthritis Society because I am a
2 chronic patient of arthritis. My hip it affected and
3 both of my knees are affected. I was in bed with
4 arthritis and I couldn't get up. I approached them and
5 said I want to help the Arthritis Society in Canada.
6 263 They looked at me and they looked at
7 my beard and they said, "Oh, you want to walk from
8 where to where?" I said I will just walk from Toronto
9 to Ottawa. They said, "Do you know the distance?" I
10 said, "Yes, I have calculated everything," and I walked
11 out and I would like to walk for the Arthritis Society.
12 264 So, in those days they wee having
13 some research program, an arthritis research program.
14 They promoted me to walk and Pakistanis and other Asian
15 country -- members of those countries they supported me
16 with finances. So my first walk was from Toronto to
17 Ottawa and this was due, of course, with the help of
18 Allah, but maybe as the main thing it is whatever you
19 do the media is the main thing to propagate what you
20 are going to do or what you have done and by that you
21 achieve a lot.
22 265 So my first walk in Canada was from
23 Toronto to Ottawa and that is about 450 kilometres, and
24 then there were three subsequent walks all for the
25 Arthritis Society. My friends asked me to set up
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1 something else and so I started off in 1993 with the
2 Muslim Welfare Centre.
3 266 You all will be surprised to know
4 that I had to borrow $14,000 from a friend of mine. I
5 had no money in my pocket. I set up an organization in
6 a small room that is 12 by 12 and I started a food
7 bank. Now I am proud to say that I am proud of my
8 community, the Southeast Asian community, they came to
9 my aid and now we own a property which is worth over a
10 million dollars. We are running three food banks. We
11 have bought a Muslim welfare home for needy women and
12 children. We have got a Muslim Institute of Computer
13 Technology and all this combined together we are
14 working on that and it is all due to the support of the
15 media because everything you do, as I already said, the
16 media should be there to support you. Particularly I
17 am grateful to ATN, Asian Television Network. They wee
18 always behind me and they were the pushing force and
19 they did what we desired.
20 267 The community is ever increasing.
21 Every day there are so many people coming into the
22 welfare centre, so we know, from Southeast Asia. So we
23 have to look after them also and for them the best
24 thing is to propagate your cause through the media.
25 Again, it comes down to media.
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1 268 We are there to put, to put in hard
2 work, but the media is there to convey what we are
3 doing, what we feel, to the world and they are doing
4 it.
5 269 I won't take much of your time, but I
6 would like to say that to progress, for the Southeast
7 Asian community to survive here and to prosper we need
8 some television network which should carry our message
9 to every nook and corner of the world. That should be
10 the attitude and I feel that that is being done and
11 recently just an example, somebody said, "Major Abbas,
12 will you be able to skydive?" It was just a joke. I
13 am 78 now. It was just a joke. I took it seriously.
14 I formed a team, a skydiving team, and I was the leader
15 and I jumped 10,500 feet, 6,000 free fall and the rest
16 with a parachute.
17 270 Why did I do it? Because I have the
18 urge to help humanity. If you go to the slum areas, I
19 would request any of you to walk along with me and see
20 under what conditions they are living there. Children
21 are dying of hunger, whereas our children are thriving
22 here. So all those things, you know, that motivate you
23 to take all sorts of life endangering experiences to
24 raise funds for the sake of humanity and to end it, I
25 am grateful to you all for giving me a kind listening.
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1 I am grateful indeed to you all and I am grateful to
2 the media and I am grateful to almighty Allah, to God
3 for giving me the strength and I hope to continue until
4 my end. That is my motto. I don't want to die in a
5 cosy bed in an air conditioned room. I should die
6 while serving humanity. I feel that I am created by
7 Allah for that purpose because I have been walking for
8 all the organizations throughout the world and now I
9 want some rest here in Canada.
10 271 My wife is here. We have been
11 married for the last 50 years and she is the only wife
12 and she is the driving force. She pushes me forward
13 and she works with me. Mind you, she had a heart
14 transplant, everything, but she is with me. She has
15 the urge to serve humanity.
16 272 So I would request that let us give a
17 chance to work and do something through the media and
18 through our own efforts.
19 273 Thank you. I would say may Allah
20 bless you, may God bless you. Amen and Amin.
21 274 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Major
22 Abbas. Thank you for sharing your story with us and
23 your views on how the media can support the kind of
24 work that you do.
25 275 My father also was commissioned in
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1 1943 and was in World War Two.
2 276 MR. ABBAS: I am hard of hearing. I
3 will get my hearing aid.
4 277 THE CHAIRPERSON: We will send you a
5 copy of the transcript and you can read it.
6 278 Thank you very much for being with us
7 today.
8 279 MR. ABBAS: I am glad to hear that.
9 We may have met somewhere. Was he in Burma. I was in
10 Burma.
11 280 THE CHAIRPERSON: It is quite
12 possible you ran into each other.
13 281 MR. ABBAS: It is so nice. There are
14 so many veterans of the 1939-1945 war. I was one of
15 them.
16 282 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for being
17 with us today.
18 283 MR. ABBAS: Thank you.
19 284 May I take a sweet?
20 285 THE CHAIRPERSON: By all means. I
21 have an extra one here if you would like it.
22 286 MS RHÉAUME: The next presentation is
23 by Mr. or Mrs. Basabiah, President of the Federation of
24 Indo-Canadian Association.
25 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
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1 287 MR. BASABIAH: It is Mister.
2 288 Madam Chairperson, ladies and
3 gentlemen. My name is Veluvolu Basabiah. I am an
4 economist by profession and I am living in Canada since
5 1962, September and I am a citizen of Canada.
6 289 I am very glad to have this
7 opportunity to appear before you this evening to make a
8 brief presentation on behalf of the Federation of
9 Indo-Canadian Associations, which is a number of
10 organizations of various cultural organizations in
11 Toronto.
12 290 The Federation comprises many of the
13 major Indo-Canadian Associations of Toronto. It was
14 formed in 1973 as Mr. Santishar, by prominent barrister
15 as the Chairman. I was its first President when it was
16 structured as a corporation in 1974, as a non-profit
17 corporation without share capital.
18 291 The Federation has participated in
19 many ways over these years to voice and articulate the
20 interests, aspirations and concerns on behalf of the
21 Canadians of origin in India. We have presented briefs
22 and we have held cultural programs to participate and
23 contribute in celebrating festivities and historic
24 occasions with Canada. The most important one was the
25 Worlds of Asia Festival that we organized with the help
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1 of Harbourfront.
2 292 We have communicated with each other
3 and we have communicated with the mainstream and we
4 have used all forms of media to do so and they are
5 very, very co-operative, both to ethnic as well as the
6 mainstream media. We have stood together for one
7 Canada and, in fact, we still stand together for one
8 Canada and we have contributed in our small way in the
9 development of a distinct Canadian culture, that is a
10 bilingual and a multicultural distinct Canadian culture
11 to be cherished by all Canadians.
12 293 I am the President of the Federation.
13 As I said, I came to Canada in 1962 and my wife came to
14 Canada in 1964 and our daughter was born in Canada. We
15 have seen many changes, as well as growth and progress
16 in our national institutions and policies during these
17 years in Canada. We have been part of that process of
18 evolution also. This process continues.
19 294 We see the wisdom in Canada's
20 bilingual policy as it is enshrined under our
21 Constitution. We also see the profound vision behind
22 Canada's policy on multiculturalism and it is also
23 enshrined within our Constitution. The scope for the
24 said policy, as well as the constitutional
25 interpretation and articulation of that policy on
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1 several fronts remains unlimited and will be seen to be
2 vast as we evolve and keep evolving with time.
3 Canadian society will remain vibrant and alive and will
4 not stultify.
5 295 We are keenly interested in all areas
6 concerning art, media, radio, television and all forms
7 of communications and technological developments and
8 legislative and regulatory framework within which these
9 operate in Canada.
10 296 We support Canada's unwavering and
11 strong stand on protecting its culture. The culture is
12 multiculture. This policy survives even after the Free
13 Trade Agreement has increased the pressures and the
14 general direction is towards deregulation. Canada
15 needs the regulatory regime and needs protection to
16 maintain its cultural integrity.
17 297 We support the existing policy of the
18 CRTC on multicultural broadcasting and licensing. If
19 anything, this area needs more protection and
20 nurturing. We need a Canadian brand of multicultural
21 programming. We need to support our up and coming
22 artists, writers, actors, performers and all the
23 talented and promising and the very gifted new
24 generation of Canadian born multicultural members of
25 our society. We need to support and nurture the up and
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1 coming Canadian multicultural producers and
2 broadcasters and we need to give them additional
3 support to form a solid foundation to build upon.
4 298 In that context we need to continue
5 affording protection to licensed multicultural
6 broadcasters to continue to develop their own Canadian
7 brand of broadcasting with increasing Canadian context
8 in every way.
9 299 We want most definitely a made in
10 Canada by Canadians and for Canadians. We also need to
11 continue a policy which will ensure that a licensed
12 broadcaster is the representative of the community to
13 which it caters. Whenever there is any program by any
14 ethnic group, the CBC, CTV or any national television
15 network must give it coverage. For example, I can tell
16 you in our community, that is the East Indian
17 community, every weekend there are at least 10 to 20
18 programs, cultural or other programs, so they cannot go
19 everywhere. So whenever there is any such program, we
20 request from our broadcasters, like ATN and other
21 networks, to come and film us and they do. They are
22 very co-operative.
23 300 We see mutual interests for
24 communities and for entrepreneurs who are also part of
25 the community. WE shall have a role for the community
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1 in the community's air waves.
2 301 We need to watch out against
3 unfettered free market forces. Culture is an area
4 which is prone to commercial exploitation and to a box
5 office and money-driven deterioration of quality and
6 standards. It is the responsibility of the society to
7 ensure that we protect our air waves from commercial
8 free market manipulation.
9 302 As an Indo-Canadian Federation we
10 thank the CRTC for licensing SATV of the ATN group as a
11 premium pay specialty multilingual broadcaster. We
12 have come a long way since ATN started with half hour
13 and one-hour programming. We have seen ATN grow with
14 us as an integral part of our community and are very
15 glad that it has now grown to the full-fledged
16 television broadcaster with a 24-hour a day and seven
17 days a week multilingual broadcasting station. This is
18 in keeping with the growth and the needs of the
19 community. ATN continues to be a part of the community
20 it caters to and we see it as one essential and
21 integral part of the platform upon which the community
22 will meet together, talk together, communicate with the
23 mainstream and find an avenue to build an entire local
24 Canadian ethnic art and entertainment industry upon.
25 303 We want Canadian content to be there
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1 and to be increased gradually. You see, if we really
2 want to see programs made in our old country it is
3 really not at all a problem. We can import them and
4 obtain movies. There is no need for any television
5 station here and they can play those movies 24 hours,
6 but that is not what we want. Our children have to
7 learn something. Our children have to participate.
8 They have to perform and that is more important to us.
9 They are going to be here. They are Canadians. They
10 are not going to -- just like our generation, they are
11 not going to look at the old country. They are part
12 and parcel of this community.
13 304 We want that to be increased
14 gradually, this Canadian content. The new licensee
15 ought to remain viable if we have to build a future
16 upon it. There is no danger of monopolistic abuse
17 within a regulated and vigilant regime such as we have
18 under the CRTC.
19 305 We further urge a more even playing
20 field. Having a licensed station and having all the
21 talent and programming is not enough until there are
22 ways and means to distribute the same. Carriage is
23 more important and without carriage everything is
24 meaningless. You can grant permission or a licence or
25 whatever it is to start a magazine and a newspaper, but
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1 if you don't give a discount which the other newspapers
2 get to mail those papers and magazines it is useless.
3 It doesn't do any good. It won't reach the
4 subscribers. It won't reach the public. It won't
5 reach the readers.
6 306 This is where we urge that a way be
7 found to facilitate carriage without additional
8 burdens. The community understands the subscription
9 and $15 per month is a price which proves the
10 commitment. Then to have to pay for purchasing a
11 satellite or to pay for digital boxes and to have to
12 carrying these additional burdens is not conducive to
13 the development of a healthy and flourishing industry.
14 It is really becoming problematic. ATN got a licence
15 and they started this two years ago. At least 70 per
16 cent of the South Asian community homes don't have that
17 program because it is too expensive. They don't mind
18 to pay $15, but they have to buy digital boxes and a
19 satellite. They can't afford that.
20 307 We urge that access be granted on a
21 national basis and without imposition of charges and
22 fees over and above the subscription fees. We are not
23 asking you to waive the fees. People are prepared to
24 pay the $15 or $10 or whatever it is, but it should not
25 be too problematic and it should not be too expensive.
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1 308 We have enjoyed total support from
2 ATN and continue to do so. We have used the television
3 time they have given us to carry out relief oriented
4 fundraising and to communicate with our community as
5 and when we have needed. Whenever we want anything to
6 be announced they did it without charging anything and
7 I am really proud of them. They have never charged a
8 single penny. I have been dealing with them for the
9 last quarter century and I never paid them a single
10 penny to announce anything. Whenever there is any
11 program they sent a crew.
12 309 We raised $19,000 in 1976 when there
13 was a big cyclone and tidal wave in southern India and
14 we did that fundraising with the help of the Canadian
15 Red Cross and we met then I believe it was Premier
16 Davis, the Canadian Red Cross and myself and he donated
17 another $60,000 and it all went to the Canadian Red
18 Cross and to the Indian Red Cross. We raised that with
19 the help of the media, not only SATV, but the other
20 media broadcasters also helped us.
21 310 Since I have close contacts with ATN
22 I have been mentioning ATN several times. We see
23 ourselves having a regular presence on ATN as part of
24 our commitment to the community.
25 311 Thank you. I am done.
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1 312 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much
2 Mr. Basabiah.
3 313 MR. BASABIAH: Thank you very much.
4 314 THE CHAIRPERSON: Madam Secretary, I
5 believe we will call two more parties. We have
6 actually finished with the first group of nine, but we
7 are a little ahead of schedule and I think we have a
8 couple of people here who would like to make their
9 presentation and then we will break after that.
10 315 MS RHÉAUME: The next part is Mr.
11 Claudio Lizzola of the Committee and General Council of
12 Italians Abroad.
13 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
14 316 MR. LIZZOLA: Thank you.
15 317 Ladies and gentlemen, my name is
16 Claudio Lizzola and I represent the Comites of Toronto.
17 Comites means Committee of the Italians Abroad, and the
18 CGIE of Canada, which means General Council of the
19 Italians Abroad.
20 318 Under the supervision of the Italian
21 General Consul of Toronto, more than 600 Italian social
22 and cultural associations have been involved in the
23 appointment of the Comites of this city. As far as the
24 CGIE of Canada is concerned, its five members were
25 democratically elected by the members of the five
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1 Comites of Canada reunited in the Italian Embassy in
2 Ottawa.
3 319 Every city or area of the world with
4 more than 3,000 Italian citizens has its Comites and
5 the Comites of each country elect their members of the
6 CGIE. The CGIE is an organ that meets in Rome under
7 the presidency of the Italian Foreign Affairs Minister.
8 Both the Comites and the CGIE are created and regulated
9 by a law of the Italian Parliament in full conformity
10 with the legal system of the countries where these
11 institutions operate. They are the organs of
12 democratic representation of the Italian communities
13 around the world vis-à-vis the official Italian
14 government representatives such as Italian embassies
15 and consulates.
16 320 Furthermore, they can take
17 initiatives, and I quote the law "... to maintain the
18 bonds of our compatriots with the Italian political and
19 cultural reality and the promotion of the Italian
20 history, tradition and language."
21 321 IN more than one way, the Comites and
22 the CGIE that I represent constitute the transmission
23 belt between the Italian communities outside Italy and
24 the Italian government.
25 322 In Canada there are more than 1.5
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1 million people that claim to be of Italian origin;
2 600,000 only in Toronto. Half of them still have
3 Italian citizenship or double citizenship.
4 323 After English and French, and
5 considering that Chinese is actually divided in two
6 languages, Mandarin and Cantonese, Italian is the third
7 spoken language in Canada.
8 324 The Italian community is second to
9 none in terms of respect of the law, laboriousness,
10 love for this country and smooth integration in the
11 Canadian society. We take pride for the very important
12 contribution we made in building Canada and with
13 loyalty and affection we will continue to do so. In
14 Canada we have planted very solid roots. We live here,
15 we work here, we will die here and our sons and
16 daughters will carry on in the future.
17 325 But we are also proud of our heritage
18 and our culture from which, by the way, all cultures of
19 the western world have profoundly drawn in the past
20 centuries.
21 326 IN a broad sense, to Italians,
22 culture is not something we learned from the books. I
23 dare to say that we were born with it. It's in our
24 genes. We have been baptized in centuries old romanic
25 or gothic or baroque churches. When we were kids we
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1 played in piazzas designed by the master architects of
2 the Renaissance. We grew having around the soft
3 landscapes that you see in the background of Leonard's
4 paintings, and we swam in the same sea painted by
5 Botticelli.
6 327 Italy is a country where natural
7 beauty, history, art, culture and tradition are so
8 pervasive and strictly interwoven that since countless
9 centuries are part of the Italian way of being, like
10 red cells of the Italian blood.
11 328 These are the elements that for all
12 Italians living outside their country are sorely
13 missing. For most of us Italian-Canadians, Canada is
14 now our country, but a piece of our heart is still
15 there, in Italy and it will always be.
16 329 We love hockey and we watch CBC, but
17 we also go wild over Italian soccer. We are moved to
18 tears watching Fellini movies in Italian and we are
19 deeply interested in everything that happens in the
20 country we left so many years ago.
21 330 Despite the numerical weight of the
22 Italian community, the available Italian TV programming
23 is vastly insufficient. In addition, what we receive
24 is not always fresh, not always interesting, not always
25 culturally valid and -- this is very important -- there
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1 are no choices to speak of.
2 331 But the issue is not only about the
3 desire to have more Italian TV content, but also about
4 the need to receive it in Italian. This is
5 indispensable for the older people and for the younger
6 generations as well.
7 332 We, Italian-Canadians, are very
8 worried about the destiny of our native language in
9 this country. We want to maintain it as much alive as
10 we can, and we do not spare efforts in supporting
11 Italian schools, institutions and all other means that
12 can contribute to achieve this goal. If we let the
13 Italian language disappear from our communities, our
14 culture will eventually disappear as well and an
15 immense patrimony will be lost forever, not only for
16 all Italian-Canadians, but for Canada a s a whole.
17 333 We are now in an age of instant
18 communication and technological wonders. The virtual
19 reality of live television coming from where we were
20 born can help us to live again our memories, show our
21 children the places where we came from and, in short,
22 it lets us draw strength from our heritage.
23 334 The means to stay in touch across the
24 oceans are available. The two major Italian networks,
25 RAI and Mediaset, are already available 24 hours a day
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1 on American satellites. Other Italian programming is
2 on its way. But in Canada, American satellites are
3 illegal to receive.
4 335 Our fellow Italian-Canadians keep
5 telling us that they want more around-the-clock timely
6 and original Italian programs. They also want the
7 right of choice between more than one programming,
8 exactly what our friends south of the border have.
9 336 As a community, Italian-Canadians
10 don't want to enter into the discussion on how to
11 protect the Canadian identity by limiting the flow into
12 Canada of American made TV programming and other media.
13 This is strictly, we believe, a Canadian political
14 issue that we prefer to leave to the elected Members of
15 Parliament.
16 337 On the other hand, we don't want that
17 the issue of Italian-speaking television be caught in a
18 dispute that really doesn't have anything to do with it
19 because, I am sure you would agree, in no way Italian
20 television programming can pose any threat, or even
21 cause any kind of interference with the Canadian
22 identity, culture and heritage.
23 338 The right to have access to all
24 available information, especially if it is not
25 otherwise or sufficiently provided, is a fundamental
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1 right of every individual and the very concept of
2 democracy is based on the free exchange of ideas and
3 information. On the other hand, denying access to
4 information is nothing else than censorship.
5 339 In a free country, as long as there
6 is a carrier or a broadcaster willing to carry a
7 certain programming and a market willing to pay and
8 support it, we think that the people have the right to
9 watch it.
10 340 On behalf of the Comites of Toronto
11 and the CGIE of Canada, I respectfully ask the CRTC to
12 liberalize to the maximum extent the access into Canada
13 of all foreign TV programming spoken in a language
14 different from English.
15 341 Ladies and gentlemen, thank you.
16 342 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very
17 much.
18 343 Commissioner Langford has a couple of
19 questions for you.
20 344 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thank you.
21 345 I was very interested in your
22 concluding comments where you called on us to free up
23 some access to Italian programming and certainly I can
24 understand that. People want programming that they
25 understand in their own language.
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1 346 But we have heard from others as well
2 that there are some problems in that area, that we have
3 to find a balance, that if we let in these American
4 satellite transmissions 24 hours a day Italian
5 programming that meets one need. On the other hand, it
6 may deprive local Canadian artists, talent and whatever
7 from getting started. People will have their fill.
8 There isn't enough room in the niche, as we heard
9 earlier on this side of the table, for everyone. How
10 do you answer that? How do we find a balance? If we
11 throw open the doors and do ask you ask, how do we
12 protect these other programs?
13 347 MR. LIZZOLA: I think it is very
14 simple, the answer. This is a free country and culture
15 is the most free of the assets an individual has.
16 Nobody can tell me that I have to watch a Canadian or
17 an English or a French or a Jewish or an Italian actor
18 if I don't want to. I have the right to watch what I
19 want if it is available, and especially if it is not
20 available enough.
21 348 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: But
22 availability by your own submission is something of a
23 problem because of cost for low-income people and
24 elderly people.
25 349 MR. LIZZOLA: No, no, the cost --
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1 what I was trying to drive through here is that I am
2 not peddling any licence for anybody. There are
3 already two licences for Italian programming in
4 television here in Toronto, but I know that there are
5 other -- there is more Italian programming that wants
6 to come into this country and maybe not this year, but
7 maybe the next one, but if the legal system does not
8 allow them to get here, well, they won't be able to.
9 350 They will also face the problem of
10 finding somebody who wants to carry their program and
11 to distribute them to the Italian communities, but
12 probably at a cost. Again, there is a country where
13 there is -- let's say everything is free. Nobody tells
14 me if I have to buy Adidas shoes or Canadian-made
15 shoes. I buy the shoes I want; so is culture.
16 351 I want to buy my culture, which is
17 not to say that I don't buy also yours or the other
18 cultures, but it is very important -- Italians come
19 from a place where our culture, history are one thing
20 with us. What can be provided or what can be created
21 here in Canada can't match, can't satisfy that kind of
22 thirst and maybe people are not able to formulate with
23 words, but it is in their art. We know it. We speak
24 with people.
25 352 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: You spoke
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1 with some passion earlier about the notion that if your
2 language isn't cultivated and fed with communities it
3 may die and if your language dies here in Canada your
4 culture will die, but at the same time don't you feel
5 an equal need to feed the young Italians in Canada who
6 want to make their own programming, who want their own
7 voices heard, who perhaps can't compete at this point
8 with Botticelli and the Renaissance churches, but given
9 an opportunity could begin to. Do you feel that we
10 have some duty, we Commissioners, to try to find a
11 policy that will balance both those needs?
12 353 MR. LIZZOLA: I am not saying that
13 this should not be there. I am pretty sure that if I
14 had a son who plays very well the guitar and I can have
15 him playing on Telelatino for instance, I would do
16 everything to speak with my friends at Telelatino to
17 have 15 minutes for him.
18 354 But that is important for him. It is
19 important for progress in this community and I want
20 this to stay and to continue, but that doesn't exclude,
21 shall not exclude that other programming that is more
22 wide and more -- let's talk about soccer. We have
23 here -- you know the Italian people are crazy about
24 soccer. Probably they want to have Italian television
25 just for that, to be cynical in a way, but I believe
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1 there is some truth in this.
2 355 You know that RAI is already
3 broadcasting Italian soccer because they have the
4 licence to do so in Italy.
5 356 Next year the rights of Italian
6 soccer games will go back to the clubs, to the soccer
7 clubs. RAI will not have the rights to Italian soccer
8 as they have it now. I don't know to what extent they
9 will have it. Perhaps they will have nothing. We will
10 have a riot here if there is no Italian soccer in the
11 Italian communities and there must be the possibility,
12 the capability, a set of law already and a set of law
13 means liberty in being able to open up new channels and
14 new Italian programming that may carry those new soccer
15 games.
16 357 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: But you do
17 see and I appreciate the soccer, but you do want us to
18 help to get your son's electric guitar out of your
19 basement and somewhere else.
20 358 MR. LIZZOLA: Sure. A soccer game
21 lasts 90 minutes and I'd like to have -- I am not
22 speaking against a Canadian-Italian or Canadian
23 produced ethnic programs actually. I am part of that
24 because I have a talk show, for instance, on the radio,
25 on CHIN radio, but that doesn't mean that the two
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1 things can live together.
2 359 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thank you
3 very much.
4 360 MR. LIZZOLA: It was a pleasure
5 talking with you, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you.
6 361 MS RHÉAUME: The next presentation is
7 by Mr. Ram Venkatraman of Bharati Kalamaram.
8 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
9 362 MR. VENKATRAMAN: Good evening,
10 ladies and gentlemen.
11 363 Actually, I represent a couple of
12 organization, Bharati Kalamaram is a cultural
13 organization which I have been associated with since
14 1969. The President of that, Mr. Subramanian, has
15 already presented that and he gave you a speech a while
16 ago.
17 364 I actually appear before you today on
18 behalf of an organization called the Canadian Council
19 of Hindus. This is a member organization which
20 represents nearly a quarter of a million Hindus in
21 Ontario and there are 60 to 70 Hindu congregations.
22 365 My name is Krishna Ram Venkatraman
23 and I am a computer engineer by profession. I work for
24 the Ministry of Health in Ontario for the last 30
25 years. I have been involved in community service since
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1 1969 when I came here and in 1973 we started a society
2 called the Hindu Temple Society of Canada, which has
3 built one of the finest and the best Hindu temples in
4 Richmond Hill.
5 366 Around 1980 the Ontario Council of
6 Multiculturalism formed a Task Force on Interfaith TV
7 Programming and the Media. I had the privilege of
8 sitting on it and representing the Hindu point of view.
9 The deliberations of that task force finally ended up
10 in the formation of the organization which now all of
11 us know as Vision TV. I was part of the task force
12 writing up the Vision TV programming standards and
13 actually I was part of writing the ethnical
14 broadcasting standards for religious programming. I
15 know how you represent any particular religious group
16 and you make sure that alternative ideas are given
17 freedom to discuss that and you don't condemn somebody
18 else without giving them the opportunity to respond
19 back to you.
20 367 Another output of that particular
21 task force is the formation of the Canadian Council of
22 Hindus because we realized that we don't have an
23 organization which speaks for the Hindus as a whole.
24 Also, there is a lot of need for the government
25 agencies, hospitals, churches and schools when they
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1 deal with the community of the Hindu faith, they have a
2 lot of questions. So out of all that the CCH has now
3 grown up.
4 368 We do all kinds of representations on
5 behalf of the Hindu community. One of the biggest
6 projects which we are proud of is we have got a
7 hospital visitors program of which I am a licensed
8 pastor in Ontario. We do pastoral services, visitor
9 services in all the hospitals and we visit people who
10 don't get visitors normally. Also, we help out the
11 hospitals in treating Hindu patients in terms of
12 dietary restrictions, funeral arrangements or various
13 things with which we get involved. The same thing goes
14 with the prison, dealing with Hindu prisoners and the
15 courts. There was a lot of questions about taking an
16 oath on the Bible or something else. In all of these
17 matters we have been dealing with that and I have been
18 representing the Hindu community in terms of interfaith
19 work.
20 369 When the Pope visited here in Toronto
21 I was with him for the interfaith prayer. I
22 represented the Hindu community.
23 370 In all of this what is relevant to
24 what we are talking about, the current speech or the
25 sponsorship of why I am here is basically to request
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1 the CRTC to continue the licensing and activities of
2 ATN.
3 371 I will tell you why we particularly
4 from the Hindu community, we are quite behind ATN's
5 activities. Right from 1968-69 when I met the current
6 professionals of ATN, which is Shan Chandrasekar and we
7 have been involved in multicultural and multifaith and
8 interfaith programming and I was present with them and
9 I worked with them and when they applied for the
10 City-TV, the first multicultural programming came on.
11 372 Even before the CRTC at the last
12 couple of years I was one of the sponsors and
13 represented to them get the ATN original licence
14 because they have helped the community in all its --
15 you see, I can talk about -- I do interfaith work, but
16 do I get that work to the community is I need the
17 media.
18 373 ATN has been with us, ATN and the
19 professionals who work at ATN and the different
20 companies before that, like particularly Shan and Jai
21 and the crew we have had interfaith dialogues and I
22 produced for about two and a half years every Saturday
23 a half an hour program in Hindu which we put on Vision
24 TV. The ATN facilities were used for it. There was
25 particularly no cost at all really because they are
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1 part of the community, the South Asian community, the
2 people involved in ATN.
3 374 They see us as an organization that
4 has been doing this work for the past couple of years.
5 They have got a long history and they are part of the
6 community and they are very well respected in the
7 community. We would like that to continue.
8 375 The current discussion about full
9 access type of thing, and you see I live in an
10 apartment in Thorncliffe Park. It comes under the
11 Rogers Cable domain. I do not have access to satellite
12 communications and the landlords do not allow a
13 satellite to be put in and I am stuck with Rogers and
14 whatever they come up with, the ME-TV and that type of
15 thing. So, I don't have free access to ATN
16 programming.
17 376 I am sure, particularly Toronto being
18 the multistoreyed tenants haven in the whole of North
19 America, next to New York I suppose this is the maximum
20 amount of people living in apartments and they do have
21 this access problem. So, if ATN can be licensed or
22 whatever so they can come up with an access solution we
23 are all for it.
24 377 In terms of actually doing the work,
25 they have been an integral part of the community in
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1 doing the interfaith work and the multicultural work.
2 The Hindus themselves in the census of 1981 gave us
3 only about 80,000 Hindus in Ontario. In the decades
4 after that the current estimate is about a quarter of a
5 million people in Canada, particularly in Ontario most
6 of them. The big influx from Sri Lanka and the
7 Caribbean which brought in people who rely on the media
8 for the Hindu cultural activities.
9 378 I am involved in the settlement of
10 the newcomers through the temple, through the Council
11 and through Bharati Kalamaram in terms of culture and I
12 do this. It is not only for us to enjoy the cultural
13 programs which we get from home, but we have to
14 interpret to our children here. I have two children
15 born in Canada, but not only that, we have to interpret
16 to the Canadian community at large because after all we
17 are going to live here and our children are going to
18 live here.
19 379 So, the media like ATN is an absolute
20 necessity. So, I don't think the CRTC has got any
21 question about it. They have no doubt about it that we
22 are even talking about it here.
23 380 The question is why particularly ATN.
24 All I am telling is that at least from our community
25 point of view they have an excellent track record.
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1 They have helped on heritage for the last 30 years, the
2 people who are involved in it have been involved in
3 this field and they are the pulse of the community. I
4 would like to put the whole Hindu community's voice to
5 please continue giving whatever rights to licence and
6 the need for better access to the community.
7 381 Thank you.
8 382 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very
9 much, Mr. Venkatraman, for sharing your views with us
10 this afternoon.
11 383 I think we are going to take a break
12 now. We will return at twenty minutes to seven.
13 --- Short recess at 1820 / Courte suspension à 1820
14 --- Upon resuming at 1845 / Reprise à 1845
15 384 THE CHAIRPERSON: Welcome back,
16 ladies and gentlemen. I apologize for our delay. We
17 were grabbing a quick sandwich for dinner in
18 anticipation of being here many more hours, but I am
19 not sure that is going to be the case.
20 385 I wonder, Madam Secretary, if you
21 would mind doing a role call and we will just see if
22 any of the remaining presenters are here to speak to
23 us.
24 386 MS RHÉAUME: I will start from the
25 beginning again. Ms Krystyna Piotrowski. Mr. Sundar
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1 Raj. Mr. Kamiesh Moorgani. Ms Veena Kumar. Mr.
2 Mohammed Rafiq. Mr. John Ha. Dr. Yvona Bogorya.
3 Danuta Warzawski. Wojciech Wojnarowicz. Wojciech
4 Maciszewski. Anna Czaijkowski. Veena Dutta. Zuhair
5 Kashmeri. Aris Babikian. Spyros Bourdorkis.
6 387 That is the end of the list.
7 388 Is there anybody else who is the room
8 today who is scheduled either today or Wednesday, but
9 who would like to do their presentation now? We would
10 invite you to do so.
11 389 THE CHAIRPERSON: I think what we
12 will do is we will take a 15-minute break and we will
13 check back just to see if anybody wanders in for the
14 post-dinner hour time period. We will be back here
15 about five after seven.
16 --- Short recess at 1850 / Courte suspension à 1850
17 --- Upon resuming at 1905 / Reprise à 1905
18 390 THE CHAIRPERSON: One last time, is
19 there anybody in the room who is registered for today
20 and who would like to appear?
21 391 In view of that I think we will
22 adjourn for today. We have a very busy day tomorrow.
23 A number of parties have moved from today to tomorrow.
24 So we will adjourn for today and we will reconvene
25 tomorrow at 4 p.m.
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1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1906, to resume
2 on Tuesday, February 2, 1999 at 1600 / L'audience
3 est ajournée à 1906 pour reprendre le mardi
4 2 février 1999 à 1600
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