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                       SUBJECT / SUJET:

                       PUBLIC HEARING ON
                     AUDIENCE PUBLIQUE SUR

TENUE À:                                HELD AT:

Bureau régional du CRTC à Halifax       Halifax Regional Office
Édifice Banque de commerce              Bank of Commerce Bldg.
Bureau 1007                             Suite 1007
Halifax (Nouvelle-Écosse)               Halifax, Nova Scotia

Le 1er février 1999                     February 1, 1999        

tel: 613-521-0703         StenoTran         fax: 613-521-7668


In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages
Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be
bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members
and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded
verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in
either of the official languages, depending on the language
spoken by the participant at the public hearing.


Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues
officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront
bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des
membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience
publique ainsi que la table des matières.

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu
textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée
et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues
officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le
participant à l'audience publique.

tel: 613-521-0703         StenoTran         fax: 613-521-7668

                 Canadian Radio-television and
                 Telecommunications Commission

              Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des
                télécommunications canadiennes

                  Transcript / Transcription

              Public Hearing / Audience publique

            Third Language and Ethnic Programming /
       Programmation multilingue et à caractère ethnique


David Colville                          Chairperson / Président


Brien Rodger                            Secretary / Secrétaire
Geoff Batstone /                        Legal Counsel /
Dylan Jones                             Conseillers juridiques

TENUE À:                                HELD AT:

Bureau régional du CRTC à Halifax       Halifax Regional Office
Édifice Banque de commerce              Bank of Commerce Bldg.
Bureau 1007                             Suite 1007
Halifax (Nouvelle-Écosse)               Halifax, Nova Scotia

Le 1er février 1999                     February 1, 1999        

tel: 613-521-0703         StenoTran         fax: 613-521-7668



Presentation by / Présentation par:

Ismail Zayid, President
Arab Canadian Association of the Atlantic Provinces          5

Fiona York
Director, National Campus Radio Association                 10

Juan Carlos Canales-Leyton
Centre for Diverse Visible Cultures                         20

Arlene Van Leeuwen
Metropolitan Immigrant Settlement Association               22

tel: 613-521-0703         StenoTran         fax: 613-521-7668


 1                  Halifax, Nova Scotia / (Nouvelle-Écosse)
 2     --- Upon commencing on Monday, February 1, 1999
 3         at 1600 / L'audience débute le lundi 1er février
 4         1999 à 1600
 5  1                    THE CHAIRMAN:  Just for the record,
 6     my name is David Colville.  I'm Vice-Chair,
 7     Telecommunications, for the CRTC and the Regional
 8     Commissioner for the Atlantic Region.
 9  2                    We are holding these consultations
10     for the next few days here and in Montreal, Vancouver,
11     Toronto and Winnipeg, and I guess you have just heard
12     from Dylan and Geoff that there were 60 to 70 folks
13     appearing in Vancouver and I think there are probably
14     upwards of 100 or so in Toronto.  We are going to be
15     receiving written comments and accepting mail
16     submissions as well on these issues, and all the
17     submissions, both oral and written, are going to form
18     part of the record.
19  3                    We started a process of reviewing all
20     of our broadcasting policies, two years ago, with
21     reviewing our policy for commercial radio and we are
22     currently nearing the end of the process of reviewing
23     our policies respecting private television in Canada. 
24     We are also wanting to review the policies as they
25     relate to community and campus stations and ethnic


 1     broadcasting as well.
 2  4                    So this particular consultation is to
 3     help the CRTC examine our policies and regulations that
 4     originally were established in 1985, when a
 5     broadcasting policy reflecting Canada's cultural and
 6     linguistic diversity was issued.  One of the most
 7     important goals of this policy is to ensure that the
 8     Canadian Broadcasting System serves the needs and
 9     interests of all Canadians by reflecting their
10     ethnocultural diversity in an effective manner.
11  5                    Since this policy was issued,
12     Canada's demographic profile has changed
13     considerably -- one might say dramatically, I
14     suppose -- in the last 10 years or so, and the amount
15     of third language and ethnic programming available in
16     the Canadian Broadcasting System has increased
17     substantially, although I suppose, from the perspective
18     of somebody living in Halifax, that may not be as
19     noticeable as it might be in some other parts of the
20     country.
21  6                    So by looking into these issues
22     around ethnic broadcasting, we are asking:
23  7                    Are the goals of the current policy
24     still valid and is the policy still effective in
25     attaining these goals?


 1  8                    I guess following out of that is:
 2  9                    How better might we develop a policy
 3     that reflects the multicultural nature of the country?
 4  10                   So we put out a Public Notice, late
 5     last year, 1998-135, which set out a series of
 6     questions and invited comments in response.  This
 7     series of consultations was set up across the country
 8     to provide an opportunity for various groups and
 9     individuals to come forward to the Commission and
10     present your views.  So we welcome your participation
11     here today and we are interested in hearing your views.
12  11                   Perhaps we could just sort of
13     informally open this up, since there is a relatively
14     small group here today, to a discussion of the issues.
15  12                   As we have already indicated on the
16     phone, we have Geoff Batstone, who is our Legal Counsel
17     for the Commission for this proceeding, and here is
18     Brien Rodger.  On the phone also is Dylan Jones as we
19     indicated.  Dylan is also a lawyer with our Legal
20     Branch but he has been kind of heading up the staff
21     sort of policy analysis of this issue.
22  13                   Brien Rodger is here from our
23     Regional Office -- a Director of our Regional Office
24     who will be the Secretary for this afternoon.  Although
25     normally we get quite formal in some of these


 1     proceedings and have the Secretary formally call people
 2     forward to the podium, I think we will treat this
 3     rather informally today.
 4  14                   So just as I have finished my opening
 5     remarks, it looks like Fiona has arrived.
 6  15                   MR. CANALES-LEYTON:  You have to
 7     repeat them now.
 8  16                   THE CHAIRMAN:  Yes.
 9  17                   You must be Fiona.
10  18                   MS YORK:  Yes.
11  19                   THE CHAIRMAN:  Welcome, Fiona.
12  20                   I just finished giving my opening
13     comments and Juan Carlos has just suggested that I am
14     going to have to do it all over again.  But I'm not.
15  21                   I just wanted to say we are going to
16     try and keep this as informal as we can.  We just want
17     to provide an opportunity for parties to present their
18     views on the issue and then perhaps we can, given the
19     small nature of the group we have here today, we could
20     open it up to a discussion, if you wish.
21  22                   We are transcribing this, so we do
22     have microphones around the table.  So just try and
23     make sure you are speaking into a microphone whenever
24     you are speaking so that we can have a record of what
25     has gone on here today.


 1  23                   So I think, with that, we will turn
 2     it over -- I don't know whether you have sort of formal
 3     presentations you wish to make.
 4  24                   DR. ZAYID:  I have prepared a brief
 5     statement.
 6  25                   THE CHAIRMAN:  Sure.  Okay.
 7  26                   DR. ZAYID:  Is that acceptable?
 8  27                   THE CHAIRMAN:  Oh yes, absolutely. 
 9     So perhaps then, we can turn to you, Dr. Ismail Zayid. 
10     You are representing the Arab Canadian Association --
12  28                   DR. ZAYID:  The Arab Canadian
13     Association of the Atlantic Provinces.  This is a brief
14     on behalf of the Arab Canadian Association of the
15     Atlantic Provinces.
16  29                   Ladies and gentlemen, Arab Canadians
17     like myself who immigrated to Canada came to this
18     country with pride and enthusiasm.  Canada, to us,
19     represented a vision of a liberal country where we
20     could bring up our families free from oppression and
21     discrimination.
22  30                   Twenty years ago, I spoke before a
23     CRTC gathering like this and documented a long factual
24     catalogue of bias and discrimination in our media that
25     was hurtful to our society and to Canada's good name


 1     and reputation.
 2  31                   Today, twenty years later, I am happy
 3     to stand before you and say that the picture is
 4     brighter but, alas, not without failings and blemishes.
 5  32                   Before delving into that area, I want
 6     to say that the Arab community in our country is
 7     significantly larger today and happier and we are proud
 8     to continue to participate and contribute to Canada's
 9     multicultural ethos.  We are a proud people with a
10     unique historic civilization based on accepting from
11     and offering to others ideas and values.
12  33                   We would like to preserve this
13     heritage in our children and, hence, we would like
14     access to communicate elements of our culture, history
15     and language through broadcasting media to our people.
16  34                   The human being, in his relationship
17     to others, is a composite picture of varied reactions. 
18     These reactions are usually integrated in the basis of
19     images and associations.  Such associations are often
20     based on casually perceived impressions, which can be
21     crystallized as pleasant or unpleasant with varying
22     degrees of intensity depending on repetition and
23     susceptibility.
24  35                   It is unquestionable that the young
25     are the most susceptible and impressionable.  It is


 1     also an established fact that the visual image has the
 2     greatest impact.  Television, through the use of this
 3     visual medium and repetition, has the most telling
 4     effect on the audience, especially the children.
 5  36                   It is in the light of this that the
 6     image of the Arab in the Canadian and U.S. media
 7     becomes significant and, unfortunately, sinister.  Let
 8     me briefly outline only a few examples of this negative
 9     image.
10  37                   Today, and for decades, the Arab
11     people in the Middle East have become victims of
12     foreign occupation and, yet, these people who resist
13     this occupation are often referred to as terrorists. 
14     Yet, the people who murder them, bomb their schools and
15     whatever are often called commandos or extremists but
16     never referred to as terrorists, while the Lebanese or
17     the Palestinian who is resisting an illegal occupation
18     is often referred to in the media as a terrorist.
19  38                   An Israeli settler, for example, of
20     the kind of Baruch Goldstein who massacred 29
21     Palestinians during their prayer at the Ibrahimi Mosque
22     in Hebron was described as an ultranationalist.  The
23     English language clearly begs for forgiveness.
24  39                   On the 26th of April 1998, the CBC
25     held a "Cross Country Check-up" program on the occasion


 1     of Israel celebrating its 50th anniversary of its
 2     creation.  I called in and got through and I was asked
 3     my opinion.  I indicated that this celebration was at
 4     the cost of the massive injustice committed against the
 5     Palestinian people who were evicted from their homes
 6     and 418 of their towns and villages were demolished and
 7     remain to this day as refugees, while Israel continues
 8     to defy international law.  I was told that they would
 9     call me back.  The call never came.
10  40                   I wrote, on the 27th of April 1998,
11     to Mr. Rex Murphy detailing this and asked why can't
12     there be a "Cross Country check-up" program on the 50th
13     anniversary of the ethnic cleansing and dispossession
14     of the Palestinian people?  No reply was received.
15  41                   There is currently, in circulation, a
16     Hollywood movie, "The Siege", depicting the terrorist
17     threat waged by none other but Muslims.
18  42                   The Globe and Mail, a few days ago
19     only, on January 26th, I think -- you may want to see
20     that -- sums up the offensive racist stereotyping of
21     the Arabs and the Muslims in the TV media.  It quotes
22     John Larroquette telling the CBS President:  "The
23     moment you tell me I can't slap the small brown guy, I
24     would have to go."  In the sitcom "Payne", Mo (short
25     for Mohammad) features the inept bumbling waiter, the


 1     butt of the hotelkeeper's abuse.  Thus and in so many
 2     similar situations, the Arab and the Muslim is the
 3     object of ridicule and amusement.
 4  43                   In The Globe and Mail, it says here: 
 5     "But if there was a Muslim lobby monitoring U.S. TV,
 6     they clearly don't have much influence."  Why should a
 7     vaguely Arabic character be the instinctive fallback
 8     position when cheap laughs are the goal?  The port of
 9     the fez or whatever it is reflects the Muslim and the
10     Arab for ridicule.
11  44                   On January 14, 1999 -- that's only a
12     few weeks ago -- the CTV program "Double Exposure"
13     mimicked Saddam Hussein, the Iraqi President, about
14     making chemical weapons, with a screen-size
15     intelligible page of "The Quran" -- which is the Muslim
16     Holy Book -- depicted as the manual for home-making of
17     biological weapons.
18  45                   Ladies and gentlemen, this is
19     extremely offensive and repugnant and insults Islam, a
20     religion of peace and tolerance for 1.2 billion Muslims
21     throughout the world and hundreds of thousands of
22     citizens in this country.
23  46                   We reject this offensive stereotyping
24     and call on all decent and self-respecting Canadians to
25     stand with us against this offensive characterization


 1     and stereotyping of our culture and our faith.
 2  47                   Thank you.
 3  48                   THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Dr. Zayid.
 4  49                   I think maybe what we will do rather
 5     than -- I had a few questions I wanted to pose in the
 6     context of our policy but I think rather than do that,
 7     I invite each of you to make your comments and then
 8     maybe we can open it up for a bit of a discussion.
 9  50                   Juan Carlos.
10  51                   MR. CANALES-LEYTON:  (Off mic...)
11  52                   THE CHAIRMAN:  Fiona.
12  53                   MS YORK:  Okay.  So I can just go
13     ahead and do my presentation?
14  54                   THE CHAIRMAN:  Yes.
16  55                   MS YORK:  It's not a formal written
17     report but I have some remarks that I have prepared.
18  56                   THE CHAIRMAN:  Sure.  Go ahead.
19  57                   MS YORK:  Before I came, I don't know
20     if you had a chance to explain my position here -- if I
21     should just introduce my background.
22  58                   THE CHAIRMAN:  Maybe, for the record,
23     if you do that now.
24  59                   MS YORK:  Okay.  I'm here both to
25     represent the NCRA, which is the National Campus


 1     Community Radio Association.  I'm the Director on the
 2     Board of the NCRA.  So we are trying to have people
 3     from the different regions who are members of the Board
 4     attend the consultations to represent the Board as a
 5     whole.
 6  60                   I am also the Station Manager of CKDU
 7     here in Halifax, which is the Campus Community Station. 
 8     So I'm also partly -- I'm sort of thinking of CKDU in
 9     my remarks.  So I am representing both the NCRA and
10     CKDU in what I am talking about here.
11  61                   I had about five different points
12     which may not all pertain to the comments in the
13     position paper that has been drawn up so far but I
14     think some do tie into the things that have been put
15     forward already.
16  62                   One is that we feel that the
17     definitions that are currently given for what is
18     considered ethnic programming -- there are five types,
19     a) to e), that are given in the Glossary.  I know that
20     the Glossary is considered sort of out of date and
21     there may be changes that are happening to that, but I
22     have gone through our programming on CKDU and
23     calculated what I consider to be ethnic programming
24     according to definitions.  Our program directory is
25     also done.


 1  63                   There was also a representative from
 2     the CRTC who called me, just sort of surveying the
 3     stations about a week ago.  She had done the
 4     calculation and all of our numbers were different.  So
 5     I think that, although when you read through them it
 6     does look fairly clear, I think there is definitely
 7     some need to clarify the definitions.
 8  64                   I would also say that the tie into
 9     the question of the importance of the following
10     programming areas, I think that if there was going to
11     be any changes to the types of programming that are
12     considered ethnic or if any of the types were to be
13     changed or cut out, I would emphasize a) and b), which
14     means programming directed specifically to
15     ethnocultural groups, and b), programming directed
16     specifically to ethnocultural groups which pertain more
17     to their experience in Canada.
18  65                   I think those would be the two areas
19     that I would emphasize and I think those are the two
20     that we tend to have more need for.  We seem to have
21     more requests for that type of programming.  So I would
22     say that that seems to be more important.
23  66                   I should also mention -- CKCU in
24     Ottawa and CHRY in North York, Toronto, so I can kind
25     of represent a little bit of what I have seen at the


 1     other stations.  So I think I would emphasize those
 2     areas and I think there needs to be some clarity in
 3     definitions.
 4  67                   The other point is that we feel
 5     that -- the NCRA as a whole feels that, right now, the
 6     maximum for a station that is not considered an ethnic
 7     broadcasting station is 15 per cent out of the
 8     programming week -- can fall under the five types of
 9     ethnic broadcasting.  There is a provision that if we
10     want to go higher, we can go up to 40 per cent if we
11     get authorization from the CRTC.
12  68                   We feel strongly that it should be a
13     higher maximum than 15 per cent and that the
14     authorization process should be much easier because we
15     do have because we do have -- right now, I know that we
16     have had requests that have come into CKDU for more
17     ethnic programming.  We have had to turn down requests
18     and I think that is a really big problem.
19  69                   I think it's partly because of the
20     lack of the definition because when I had calculated, I
21     had some under 15 per cent.  So I don't think that we
22     are at 15 per cent.  I think we could have accepted
23     those shows but because of the lack of clarity, the
24     shows are being turned down, and because of the 15 per
25     cent maximum, the shows are being turned down.


 1  70                   Those shows don't have access to any
 2     other station in Halifax.  There's no way that those
 3     people who are making proposals would get any
 4     programming anywhere else.  So it's absolutely
 5     essential for us to be able to have the room to accept
 6     those shows.
 7  71                   Now, I know that there is the
 8     authorization process but I think that, just given the
 9     nature of the CRTC and the need for a Campus Community
10     Radio, even if it's written into the Glossary that you
11     can apply for special authorizations, 99 per cent of
12     campus community stations will not do that just because
13     there is this intimidation factor for the CRTC.
14  72                   They think that -- although it's
15     written in there, they wouldn't think to ask.  They
16     wouldn't think they can get it.  They would think it
17     was really difficult, you know, like a five-page
18     document like our licence renewals are, where it may be
19     as simple as just writing a letter and explaining their
20     position.  But stations just won't do that because they
21     are often intimidated by a process like that and
22     because it's not spelled out clearly.
23  73                   So I would say, definitely, to raise
24     the maximum and to make the authorization process a lot
25     more transparent and a lot simpler for campus community


 1     stations.
 2  74                   Another area -- actually, I want to
 3     go back to the clarity of the definitions.  I think, as
 4     a whole, we are not particularly comfortable with the
 5     term "ethnic programming".  "Ethnic" can apply to any
 6     programs.  It could be the people who are third- or
 7     fourth-generation Canadian.  That's an ethnicity as
 8     well and it is inappropriate to call programs, when you
 9     are talking about a different culture "ethnic".  I just
10     am not comfortable with that term.  So I would suggest
11     trying to just change the definition as a whole.
12  75                   The third point is, on the shows now
13     that fall under the five categories of ethnic
14     programming, there is a lower Can Con expectation. 
15     Instead of the 30 per cent that we have on all the
16     other shows, it's 7 per cent for, I think, shows
17     that -- I know that I have talked many times to the
18     programmers that we have on CKDU and I know that all of
19     them have a lot of trouble reaching that 7 per cent.
20  76                   With some, it's not very difficult
21     because if the group has been here for a while, there
22     may be Arabic Canadians living in Halifax who have
23     produced something that is available on cassette that
24     they can play.  But a lot of people -- like I know on
25     our Polish program, the person who hosts it plays --


 1     it's not even relevant to his show.  He has to just
 2     pick some other music to play to fit into the Can Con.
 3  77                   So 7 per cent, although it is lower
 4     than other areas, I think it's still difficult.  So
 5     there should be some extra provisions in there.
 6  78                   I don't know if it can be lowered to
 7     0 or -- I'm not sure what to propose but I think that
 8     there should be some way of providing an exception or
 9     some way of lowering that just to make it easier
10     because it seems that that is a recurring problem for
11     people doing the shows.  Even when they are thinking of
12     putting a proposal in, they might say, "Oh, but I have
13     to play it with Canadian Content.  I don't think I can
14     do this."  So it's often almost putting people off from
15     doing the shows.
16  79                   I would also say -- this is sort of
17     more relevant to CKDU -- that there should be
18     provisions for regional exceptions because, in our case
19     at CKDU, there couldn't be an across-the-board increase
20     in the maximum.  Instead of saying, increasing 15 per
21     cent across the country, which I think would be ideal,
22     I think there should definitely be at least regional
23     exceptions where stations in a community like in
24     Halifax -- we're almost the only station east of
25     Montreal that broadcasts any ethnic programming at all.


 1  80                   There are a few other campus
 2     community stations here.  There's CHSR in Fredericton. 
 3     There's a couple of others in the area but they are all
 4     sort of in our same circumstances.  There is definitely
 5     none other in the Halifax area that do any programming.
 6  81                   So I would think, definitely in a
 7     situation like this, we should have an allowance to go
 8     higher than 15 per cent just because no other stations
 9     are doing it and there obviously is a need.
10  82                   They would follow with other CRTC
11     policies like where -- I believe that if a community
12     station is applying for a licence in a market where
13     there is no other local programming, commercial or
14     otherwise, if the process was a little bit easier for
15     them.  So I think the same thing should be considered
16     where we are providing ethnic programming in a region
17     where no one else is doing that.
18  83                   I also had a couple of comments
19     pertaining to the remarks, in the document, that have
20     been put out.  The question about the importance of
21     third language ethnic programming relative to the
22     importance of ethnic programming in French or English,
23     I would say, definitely, third language programming is
24     more important.  So that would be the simple answer for
25     me for that question.


 1  84                   For number 6, there's a question
 2     about comparing how the policies should differ between
 3     campus and community stations, for example, and
 4     commercial stations.  I would say here, although we do
 5     feel it's very important and what I have been saying so
 6     far is we want to have the right to do more ethnic
 7     programming, we think it's something that we do as a
 8     station, it's totally part of our mandate and it's
 9     something that we would do regardless.
10  85                   There is a number of areas of things
11     that the CRTC has set out as part of their mandate for
12     radio and television in Canada where we find that
13     campus community stations are taking on the bulk of the
14     responsibility, like things like local talent
15     development or local programming and multicultural
16     programming where a lot of commercial stations just
17     don't do that and we are taking on a lot of
18     responsibility.  This seems, to me, to be another area
19     where we are doing more.
20  86                   It's not that we don't want to do
21     more.  We think that it's very important, but in answer
22     to the question about how the different programming
23     services should be changed to fulfil the needs of the
24     CRTC's multicultural policies, I think that there
25     should be provisions where commercial stations do have


 1     to take on a little bit more responsibility.
 2  87                   There are some shows that we have on
 3     CKDU where they may be more appropriate on a commercial
 4     station.  There may be people who would be happier in a
 5     more commercial format and there may be people who
 6     would be happy on a community station.
 7  88                   So they have the choice, like any
 8     other programmer, to go on whichever station they feel
 9     is more appropriate to them.  Right now, that doesn't
10     really happen.  So I think that there should just be
11     some mechanism to increase the responsibility for other
12     stations as well.
13  89                   Just one other thing that is relevant
14     to CKDU:  in terms of the programming we have, we do
15     have now -- just to give an idea of the types of
16     programming we have -- we have four Arabic shows on
17     right now and they are extremely popular.  Last year
18     around this time, we set aside a full day and did focus
19     programming that started at 10 a.m. and went on until
20     midnight.  That was all on Arabic issues.  Most of it
21     was in English.  Some of it was in Arabic.  We are
22     doing the same thing again this year.
23  90                   Last year during the day, they had
24     about 200 phone calls coming in of people just happy
25     with the programming.  I, unfortunately, don't have the


 1     statistics or the source for this information but at
 2     the time we were putting together this show, there was
 3     a press release that was written by the groups that
 4     were coordinating the programming and they had said
 5     that Arabic is the second most spoken language in Nova
 6     Scotia.
 7  91                   So it's just something where we think
 8     there is obviously this huge need -- there is a huge
 9     response.  It's very important and we are able to
10     fulfil it but we just think it should be acknowledged
11     that we are taking on this responsibility and have the
12     mechanisms to increase our ability to do this and to
13     have other stations taking on the responsibility as
14     well.
15  92                   THE CHAIRMAN:  Thanks, Fiona.  You
16     got a lot of comments out of that little square piece
17     of paper.  That's good.
18     --- Laughter / Rires
19  93                   THE CHAIRMAN:  Juan Carlos.
21  94                   MR. CANALES-LEYTON:  My name is Juan
22     Carlos Canales-Leyton and I represent the Centre for
23     Diverse Visible Cultures, a relatively new organization
24     of direct membership that concerns itself with the
25     issues of the non-native ethnic minorities in this


 1     area.  By that, I mean non-Blacks, non-Whites and
 2     non-Indian natives -- basically, immigrants of colour.
 3  95                   We have not had the opportunity of
 4     reading the document that you are making comments from. 
 5     So I heard that around the 4th is the deadline.  We
 6     would appreciate having a copy so we can make a formal
 7     extension of our small presentation here today.
 8  96                   Presentation to the CRTC on the
 9     Licensing Process for Ethnic Media and that tells you
10     how focused we were.  We just thought of the process to
11     license new outlets rather than dealing with the
12     existing ones but, of course, we make big comments on
13     the other ones as well later on.
14  97                   At the Centre for Diverse Visible
15     Cultures of Nova Scotia, CDVC, we believe in full
16     participation by the members of the different
17     minorities that compose our ethnic fabric, in all the
18     activities, programs and policy-making processes that
19     will eventually affect them.
20  98                   Based on the above premise, we
21     respectfully submit the following MUSTS for an
22     inclusive and responsible licensing process to any and
23     all ethnic media under the CRTC's jurisdiction:
24  99                   a)  Inclusiveness:  Any licensing
25     process must include participation by the people who


 1     will end up being recipients of the products/services
 2     being licensed to the successful applicant.  This can
 3     be achieved by direct invitation to groups such as
 4     ours, who constantly look out for the betterment and
 5     advancement of its constituents.  We believe that a
 6     managerial view and/or decision alone by the CRTC will
 7     represent a concept of "for the people but without the
 8     people".
 9  100                  b)  Participation:  Licensing should
10     include the obligation/commitment by the licensees to
11     allocate a percentage of their air time (one third
12     across the board, for example) to the development of
13     community-based programming.  As well, there should be
14     a constant search and promotion, in partnership with
15     local community-based groups such as ours, of media
16     (would-be) personalities and/or other talents
17     (artistic, editorial, et cetera) from within the
18     minority ethnic communities.
19  101                  Thank you for the opportunity to
20     present our views here today and for your attention to
21     this presentation.
22  102                  THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.
23  103                  Arlene, did you want to make any
24     comments at this time?


 1  104                  MS VAN LEEUWEN:  Sure.
 2  105                  I work at MISA, Metropolitan
 3     Immigrant Settlement Association.  I'm speaking on
 4     behalf of my co-workers.  We are a staff of 25, the
 5     majority of whom are refugees and immigrants.  We
 6     provide settlement services for newcomers.  So we
 7     really spend our days up to our elbows in very
 8     practical survival issues.  We are not media critics
 9     and we also did not refer to the document that Fiona is
10     reading from.
11  106                  So the comments that I am going to
12     make represent the views of newcomers to Canada and how
13     they perceive the content of Canadian broadcasting.
14  107                  First of all, we are aware of what a
15     very powerful tool the media is for acculturation,
16     specifically television because of the fact that it is
17     visual.  For those who still are having difficulties
18     with the language, it's the most accessible of the
19     media.
20  108                  For people who find themselves, at
21     the beginning of the settlement process, quite
22     isolated, not having access to the family networks and
23     social networks that they enjoyed at home, they spend a
24     lot of time in the company of their televisions, and
25     particularly if they are unemployed or under-employed,


 1     the television is a very important source of
 2     information -- sometimes erroneous information -- and
 3     it's also a very useful instrument for learning the
 4     language.  People really appreciate the ability to read
 5     in closed captioning narratives of the programming that
 6     they see.
 7  109                  It's interesting -- I just would like
 8     to relate a small anecdote that illustrates the kind of
 9     conclusions that people may draw on the basis of what
10     they see on television.
11  110                  I do a lot of home visits.  We do
12     outreach as well as provide services at our street
13     address.  I was visiting a young family, about three
14     years ago.  They were refugees from the former
15     Yugoslavia and the young mother was spending a lot of
16     time at home.  She had toddlers and she was pretty well
17     housebound.  She had been in Canada for two months and
18     she was watching a lot of daytime TV, particularly talk
19     shows.
20  111                  I was asking her, "What is your
21     impression of Canadian broadcasting?  What is your
22     impression of Canada?"  She said, "Arlene, are all
23     Canadians" -- and then she kind of searched for the
24     word and then she said -- "dysfunctional?"
25     --- Laughter / Rires


 1  112                  MS VAN LEEUWEN:  I'm sure that, in
 2     Canada, we have our own unique brand of dysfunction but
 3     she was basing so many of her conclusions about life in
 4     her new culture on what she was seeing on television. 
 5     So there are all kinds of implications having to do
 6     with Canadian Content there and many other things.
 7  113                  Anyway, at a staff meeting last week,
 8     we tossed around these three statements -- or three
 9     questions that the Commission is asking:
10                            "To what extent does the present
11                            broadcasting system adequately
12                            serve Canada's ethnocultural
13                            communities?"
14  114                  People felt very strongly about news
15     coverage, in particular, and they had some very
16     practical suggestions.  They were frustrated, as many
17     of us are, by the short attention span of the news
18     media.  People who are from Central America are still
19     interested in what is happening in the reconstruction
20     work in Honduras, for example, and like so many issues,
21     it has dropped out of sight to make way for the most
22     recent disaster story.
23  115                  So it's that kind of fickleness and
24     shifting focus of the media that frustrates people who
25     really want to keep in touch with what is happening in


 1     their countries.  In general, there is a dearth of
 2     international coverage unless it is of a catastrophic
 3     nature:  political atrocities, natural disasters, once
 4     again.
 5  116                  They referred to what they called
 6     western chauvinism in the coverage of, for example,
 7     scientific breakthroughs, educational developments,
 8     cultural events from other countries.  It's not often
 9     that we hear about things like that from other
10     countries beyond the west.
11  117                  Someone from Nigeria, which is a
12     country that is truly multilingual, suggested that for
13     newcomers who are not yet literate in English, in
14     Nigeria, the public broadcasting corporation provides,
15     after the news, a verbal resume in the news in a
16     variety of perhaps eight different languages.  They
17     were suggesting that this might be done in Canada as
18     well.
19  118                  As a way of keeping in touch with
20     what is going on in their countries, people were saying
21     that the Internet now surpasses radio and television as
22     a tool for obtaining information.
23  119                  THE CHAIRMAN:  Mostly in English.
24  120                  MS VAN LEEUWEN:  Yes, yes.
25  121                  The second question:


 1                            "Given the demographic changes
 2                            that have taken place... how can
 3                            the needs and interests of
 4                            ethnocultural communities
 5                            continue to be served?"
 6  122                  I'm sorry -- the suggestion,
 7     obviously, about the resume in various languages would
 8     be a response to that second question.
 9  123                  They applaud the good work of the CBC
10     in its affirmative action hiring policies and they
11     encourage that such policies be strengthened and
12     conserved.
13  124                  Also, there was the suggestion that,
14     similarly to the Canadian content quotas, perhaps there
15     could be an ethnocultural quota to programming -- a
16     very, very practical comment, once again -- on sports
17     coverage.  The normal -- usually, sports coverage is
18     pretty well restricted to the three big North American
19     sports:  football, baseball and hockey, and there are
20     people who would like to know about cricket and soccer
21     as well.
22  125                  In response to the third question
23     about foreign product as opposed to Canadian product,
24     people stated that although they appreciate
25     ethnocultural programs that are produced in Canada,


 1     they would still like to be able to see programming
 2     from their own countries so that they can monitor the
 3     evolution of the first country culture.
 4  126                  They also -- I had a comment
 5     specifically from a couple of African co-workers of
 6     mine regarding American programming, particularly
 7     sitcoms that feature African-American actors.  They
 8     were quick to say that one must not conclude that
 9     simply because those programs feature African-American
10     actors that they at all address the concerns of African
11     immigrants or reflect the values of African immigrants.
12  127                  Everyone seemed to agree that the
13     media was complicit in perpetuating stereotypes such
14     as -- and the example did come up of Middle Eastern
15     terrorists -- because of the short attention span and
16     lack of contextualization of news stories that
17     sometimes broadcasters end up perpetuating stereotypes
18     by not studying issues in more depth.
19  128                  I apologize, again, for the informal
20     nature of these comments.  We will consider, once we
21     have had an opportunity to peruse that document, if we
22     will accept your invitation to present something in
23     writing before March 4th.
24  129                  THE CHAIRMAN:  There is no need to
25     apologize for the informality.  We appreciate your


 2  130                  I'm just wondering whether any of the
 3     others -- because a lot of those questions that you
 4     mentioned and addressed, and the comments there were
 5     obviously the questions that we posed in the press
 6     release, but also questions that we broadly were
 7     addressing in the Public Notice, although many of them
 8     get a little more specific because they speak right to
 9     the policies with respect to whether it's radio or
10     television and whatever.
11  131                  I'm just wondering whether some of
12     the others might have comments on -- not so much on the
13     responses that Arlene made but on some of the different
14     issues that she raised.
15  132                  Dr. Zayid, you mentioned a concern
16     about stereotyping in the media, particularly as it
17     addresses Arabs in the Middle East.
18  133                  DR. ZAYID:  Very much so.  In fact,
19     this is what I was giving some examples of and I
20     appreciate my friend here reinforcing the statement. 
21     There is no doubt about it that there is a tremendous
22     amount of stereotyping that goes on.
23  134                  It's interesting -- you should read
24     this article in The Globe and Mail.  I will leave you a
25     copy here.


 1  135                  Literally, this says that now the
 2     media dare not make mockery or fun of the Africans nor
 3     the Hispanics.  So then they will pick on the Arab and
 4     the Muslim as a laughing stock.  It gives a variety of
 5     examples in this report of exactly that and this is
 6     besides the point about also this question of
 7     terrorism, which I stated.  This is dreadful.
 8  136                  This goes on all the time, that Islam
 9     and terrorism -- I have heard so many times, for
10     example, when Pakistan exploded the bomb, this was
11     called the Islamic bomb.  Nobody ever says about the
12     Christian bomb or the Jewish bomb, no, but we have an
13     Islamic bomb.  You must have heard this many times.
14  137                  Islam is depicted in this fashion and
15     the Arab is -- as far as terrorism is concerned.  This
16     is very offensive because the people who are involved
17     in this are people who are resisting occupation.  Their
18     homes have been demolished.
19  138                  I come from a village that had been
20     wiped out, completely demolished.  To my shame, stands
21     today, in the ruins of my own village, what is called
22     Canada Park, paid with tax-deductible dollars -- my
23     dollars and your dollars and so on -- and nobody says
24     about this being terrorism.  No, that's just Canada
25     Park.


 1  139                  I have been speaking to the Prime
 2     Minister of this country and I said, "It's a shame to
 3     have Canada's name associated with an act of illegality
 4     like this, to demolish whole villages.  Three villages
 5     are totally wiped out and people driven out, and build
 6     a recreation centre called Canada Park with Canadian
 7     tax-deductible dollars."  But this goes unnoticed and
 8     this is -- this stereotyping is offensive.
 9  140                  As I said, this example I gave about
10     "Double Exposure".  You can laugh at Saddam Hussein and
11     do whatever -- shoot him for all I care -- but to
12     depict that Islam is the manual for making chemical
13     weapons is offensive in the extreme.  I think this
14     should not be tolerated and I think this is what people
15     strongly object to.
16  141                  THE CHAIRMAN:  How do you think we --
17     I mean the collective "we", not just the Commission but
18     we the Commission, the communities you represent -- you
19     all represent here -- and the broadcasters.  How do you
20     think we should deal with this problem to overcome
21     these sorts of stereotypes?
22  142                  DR. ZAYID:  Well, I think there ought
23     to be a conscious effort of educational value through
24     the media to eliminate this stereotyping --
25     offensive -- and also in the hierarchy of the


 1     broadcasting media, this should not be tolerated.
 2  143                  I was giving you this example of this
 3     President of the CBC telling this fellow -- whatever
 4     his name, John Larroquette, whatever his name is.  He
 5     was telling him that he must not depict -- the actual
 6     original person involved in that story was a Hispanic
 7     and his name was Manuel, but he said, "I can't have
 8     Manuel -- a Hispanic actor."  So he called him "Mo" for
 9     Mohammad and he says, "That's a little brown guy which
10     you can slap around and I'm not going to be told not to
11     slap around the little brown guy."
12  144                  There is obviously also a basic
13     fundamental educational process to go on and, at the
14     same time, the policy-makers should also be aware that
15     stereotyping is offensive and should not be accepted in
16     this country.  As I said, literally, I, for one, came
17     to this country because I believe that this is a
18     liberal society -- small "l", mind you, society --
19     where I can bring up my children and so on.  It was
20     hurtful.
21  145                  Of course, I think we are better now
22     than 20 years ago.  You weren't here but 20 years ago,
23     I spoke for everybody like this.  There was a lot more
24     offensive stereotyping in our media than there are
25     today.  So I'm a little happier but I'm not completely


 1     happy about the situation today.
 2  146                  THE CHAIRMAN:  Juan Carlos, did you
 3     have any comments on that?
 4  147                  MR. CANALES-LEYTON:  Well, if I may
 5     just touch on a couple of points made by the other --
 6  148                  DR. ZAYID:  I want to commend the
 7     CKDU also for their programs.  I think that is very
 8     positive what the CKDU does in relation to the Arabic
 9     programming.
10  149                  I'm sorry about interrupted you.
11  150                  MR. CANALES-LEYTON:  That's quite all
12     right.
13  151                  I think that of all the media in
14     Canada, the only true multicultural one is Vision TV
15     and, without any doubt, perhaps the best showcase of
16     any and all cultures that you will find in this
17     country, perhaps even in North America -- I don't know
18     about the States.
19  152                  I wondered to which extent other
20     media outlets are relying on Vision doing their job for
21     them, not to do it themselves, when they should use
22     Vision as a source for production.  I think that would
23     be a good work to do, to buy programming from Vision so
24     that they can show it themselves rather than from ABC
25     and NBC.


 1  153                  A comment was made that CBC's
 2     affirmative action hiring was a good thing and I'm sure
 3     it is, but when I look at the photographs of my morning
 4     broadcasters, I don't see any colour in the people
 5     there.  I don't know if that is by choice or just by
 6     sheer coincidence.  Just look at the photographs on the
 7     promos and you will see there are no people from a race
 8     other than white, and I think, in Canada, that is not
 9     reflecting reality.  You know that in Toronto --
10  154                  THE CHAIRMAN:  To be fair, I think we
11     have a few -- like Ian Hanomansingh, for example --
12  155                  MR. CANALES-LEYTON:  But he is not on
13     the morning photograph --
14  156                  THE CHAIRMAN:  No, but he started
15     here in Halifax a number of years ago.  Then he gets
16     promoted and moves to Vancouver.
17  157                  MR. CANALES-LEYTON:  I know.  I have
18     noticed a lot of colouring, if you will, of the
19     broadcasters in CBC and the other people but that
20     strikes me in a very interesting manner, that here we
21     have your morning team, Brenda Starr(ph), Dave
22     Wright(ph), and all that.  The first impression our
23     children will have is here are the people that bring
24     you the news.
25  158                  Not long ago, CBC also brought in all


 1     the world -- all sorts of correspondents.  There was
 2     nobody for Latin America and they apologized for this
 3     in the news.  How many million people from Latin
 4     America did not have a resident representative from the
 5     Canadian Broadcasting Corporation?  That was
 6     outstanding, to me, particularly that I come from that
 7     part of the world and I know interesting things happen
 8     there.
 9  159                  Regarding sports, surely soccer would
10     be nice to see from places other than England and
11     Scotland and Germany which, again, it goes to the
12     anglo-saxon world.  When you say western, I would
13     dispute that concept.  It's not western civilization
14     that is portrayed, it's anglo-saxon and northern
15     civilization because the southern hemisphere of the
16     western world, which is where I come from, my culture
17     is not represented either.  So it's not the western
18     world.  It's the upper western world.  So those are
19     basically the comments.
20  160                  Regarding how it could change,
21     perhaps if you could look at the composition of your
22     board.  Maybe the board ought to change.  Maybe you
23     ought to bring more people that represent better the
24     fabric and the philosophies behind different races and
25     different peoples that are in Canada.


 1  161                  THE CHAIRMAN:  When you say "board",
 2     you were looking at me but what you really mean is the
 3     board of the broadcasters.
 4  162                  MR. CANALES-LEYTON:  CRTC.
 5  163                  THE CHAIRMAN:  All the CRTC.
 6  164                  MR. CANALES-LEYTON:  Because you
 7     license.
 8  165                  THE CHAIRMAN:  What about the boards
 9     of the broadcasters?
10  166                  MR. CANALES-LEYTON:  Surely, but they
11     are more commercial and I don't think that --
12  167                  THE CHAIRMAN:  CBC is not.
13  168                  MR. CANALES-LEYTON:  Well, CBC is the
14     exception.  Everybody else is a commercial outlet.  How
15     can you dictate to commercial companies to bring more
16     directors from different ethnic backgrounds?  I don't
17     think you can.  Now, if you can do it, surely.
18  169                  THE CHAIRMAN:  Well, we try and
19     encourage even the private commercial stations through
20     their licence agreements.  We encourage these operators
21     to be more diverse in their management and the board.
22  170                  MR. CANALES-LEYTON:  I used to
23     publish the only multicultural newspaper in this city
24     up until three years ago.  One of the reasons why I had
25     to stop publishing it was because the advertising


 1     levels by the Government of Canada dropped completely. 
 2     It went below the bottom.
 3  171                  I think that any effort in assisting
 4     ethnic programming or minority ethnic programming of
 5     any kind, whether hosted at a major mainstream, if you
 6     will, media outlet or at a specific ethnic minority
 7     outlet, has to be supported by advertising dollars from
 8     the government.  There is no doubt in my mind that
 9     without that support they will not get the rest coming
10     along.  The government dollars will bring a level of
11     backing that is absent right now.
12  172                  There is a newspaper that just
13     started.  I think they have put three or four issues
14     out and I am concerned that the fellow might not make
15     it.  He has four ads.
16  173                  THE CHAIRMAN:  Here in Halifax?
17  174                  MR. CANALES-LEYTON:  Yes, here in
18     Halifax.  I'm seeing him going through exactly the same
19     steps I went through a number of years ago.
20  175                  Unfortunately, although I'm
21     apolitical, the levels of funding for advertising for
22     ethnic-based media dropped with this government.  As of
23     93-94, the money went out.  There is no more
24     advertising and I think that's important that it be
25     restored to previous to 1993 levels because it was a


 1     great support of all this concern.
 2  176                  So those, so far, are the comments I
 3     can make.
 4  177                  THE CHAIRMAN:  We have largely talked
 5     about sort of the representation or the
 6     characterization or even "stereotyping" -- to use the
 7     word, I guess -- of various groups on conventional
 8     radio and television stations.  In their normal
 9     programming, largely news and sports, we have talked
10     about, your comment about Vision is interesting in that
11     Vision is essentially licensed as a religious station
12     not a network station.  It's interesting that you
13     should make the comment that you find that quite
14     valuable from an ethnic point of view.
15  178                  I'm wondering what your views are on
16     the notion about programs on radio and television, the
17     sort of thing that Fiona was referring to that CKDU has
18     run -- that would be programming directed to various --
19     I'm having trouble with one term.  You said we
20     shouldn't be using the term -- maybe for the sake of
21     this discussion, we can use that term until we come up
22     with something better.
23  179                  I'm wondering what your views are in
24     terms of providing either on conventional, either
25     commercial or public or campus community stations,


 1     programming directed to various groups, whether it be
 2     the Arab community or various other communities.  What
 3     is your view on that?  Should we be trying to structure
 4     the system to have more of that?
 5  180                  DR. ZAYID:  I think so too.  This is
 6     the point I was making.  Ny first point I was making is
 7     that, in essence, I think it is an enrichment of our
 8     multicultural ethos in this country to promote amongst
 9     people pride in their heritage, in their language, in
10     their culture, in their history, and I think it is
11     perfectly appropriate for an opportunity through
12     broadcasting to be available for people to be directed
13     at them through other channels, through commercial
14     channels or whatever you call these channels.  That
15     would be, I think, appropriate.  In relation to the
16     Arab community, I think there is an attempt to do this
17     if it can be supported by the CRTC and the media.
18  181                  MS VAN LEEUWEN:  I think not only
19     programming that targets specific ethnic constituencies
20     but also programming like on CBC -- I'm thinking of
21     "Roots and Wings"(ph), the music program that has the
22     effect of kind of developing Canadian's general
23     cultural literacy.  Newcomers really appreciate it when
24     mainstream Canadians know something about their
25     culture, obviously.


 1  182                  So from the perspective of newcomers,
 2     any kind of programming that informs and cultivates, in
 3     mainstream Canadians, a taste of knowledge for
 4     international culture, that's a good thing.
 5  183                  THE CHAIRMAN:  What about programming
 6     that -- and maybe this is what you were referring to --
 7     that speaks back to them about -- in their own
 8     language -- both their own culture --
 9  184                  DR. ZAYID:  Yes, I'm not suggesting
10     to have this on a major CBC program but through special
11     channels -- a limited number of hours.  I am not
12     suggesting a 24-hour program but a program directed --
13     pretty much like the CKDU does, narrate a program for
14     an hour or whatever it is.  I think more of that and
15     perhaps on a wider context than the CKDU does.
16  185                  THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.
17  186                  Fiona, you mentioned that -- in
18     particular, you mentioned the Arabic programming that
19     you have done.  Is that sort of a once-a-year...
20  187                  MS YORK:  No, we have four shows that
21     run weekly right now.  The one that I was talking about
22     was a special day.  Sometimes, we will take aside a day
23     and focus on a certain issue.  So we did that for the
24     first time last year.  There was a whole day set aside. 
25     It was all talking about different Arabic issues.


 1  188                  But we do have four shows that run on
 2     a weekly basis that are -- one is two hours and the
 3     others are an hour and a half each.  So we have about
 4     six hours of Arabic programming in total.
 5  189                  In answer to the question of whether
 6     commercial stations should be encouraged to do ethnic
 7     programming as well, I think that just thinking about
 8     how much we are able to do on our tiny budget and our
 9     really limited resources, just thinking about what the
10     programmers can do, I think, there's so much already on
11     CKDU, with the very little we have.  If they had those
12     resources of another station, they would just be
13     incredible.
14  190                  I think we are very lucky that we
15     just happen to have people who are really committed and
16     motivated and do excellent programming, regardless of
17     the limited resources, but if they had access to better
18     news sources or sports information or just so many
19     other things they can do, it would just be unlimited
20     how much better it could be -- the potential that there
21     could be and also just because we are only 50 watts. 
22     It doesn't get very far.  So there would be so much
23     more potential.
24  191                  MR. CANALES-LEYTON:  That's the
25     problem.  I can never catch them.  I hear all these


 1     good things about them and I can never listen to them. 
 2     I don't know if it's by licensing or just inherent
 3     capacity of your station, but if they have such good
 4     programming, they should be available to the rest of
 5     the community at large.  I think that adding three 0's
 6     to your emissions at least -- just go for it, if you
 7     can.
 8  192                  MS YORK:  We're working on it.
 9  193                  MR. RODGER:  Fiona, you mentioned
10     that 15 per cent is not enough.  Have you thought about
11     what would be a reasonable level?
12  194                  MS YORK:  Well, I guess maybe if you
13     remove the two tiers, like now, it's 15 per cent and
14     then with authorization, up to 40 per cent.  Maybe if
15     you just remove the special authorization and just say,
16     "up to 40 per cent", I think that might be better.
17  195                  I don't want to speak on behalf of
18     the NCRA because we haven't really discussed it and I
19     don't want to put forward something and then maybe that
20     is not what we would agree on as a group.  But I think
21     that would be more reasonable than 15.
22  196                  THE CHAIRMAN:  You are somewhat
23     familiar, obviously, with the radio business here in
24     Halifax, at least from sort of a non-profit point of
25     view, not that ethnic stations are necessarily


 1     non-profit but we have a market here that doesn't have
 2     an ethnic station.  What would your view be on whether
 3     or not this market could support one?
 4  197                  MS YORK:  I guess it would depend on
 5     the type, like commercial or community, because then
 6     there would be different needs and different budgeting.
 7  198                  I think that probably the market is
 8     close to being able to support that type of station on
 9     a smaller scale, perhaps like a smaller station or --
10     sometimes when community stations start, they are not
11     necessarily 24 hours, so perhaps on a more limited time
12     of day to start with and gradually increasing.  But I
13     can see definitely the support for that.  I think that
14     that could work.
15  199                  THE CHAIRMAN:  When you mentioned
16     earlier about the -- you have had to turn down some of
17     the requests for programming.  How many different
18     cultural groups do you think that CKDU could do a good
19     job of serving in this community, if you had the
20     flexibility and the regulations to be able to do it?
21  200                  MR. CANALES-LEYTON:  Are you speaking
22     of languages or cultures in the broader sense?
23  201                  THE CHAIRMAN:  Yes -- all of the
24     above.
25  202                  MS YORK:  Right now, there's 19


 1     hours, which is under 15 per cent, and that's maybe
 2     like 12 to 15 shows.  So if it was higher, it would be
 3     like 30-35 different programs.  Right now, there's some
 4     overlap, like there's four Arabic shows, but if it was
 5     one show per one group, then that would be 30-40
 6     groups, I guess.
 7  203                  THE CHAIRMAN:  Based on the kinds of
 8     requests that you get, what do you expect you would
 9     have?
10  204                  MS YORK:  If we did have a higher
11     limit?
12  205                  THE CHAIRMAN:  In terms of the number
13     of different groups.
14  206                  MS YORK:  It would go up gradually
15     and there are, obviously, other domains that we have to
16     sort of bring necessarily.  It would all be -- each one
17     is considered case-by-case but I would say if there was
18     a change this year, there are probably three that we
19     would add this year.
20  207                  THE CHAIRMAN:  What would those three
21     be?
22  208                  MS YORK:  One was Chinese and -- I'm
23     not sure what the other ones were, I'm sorry.
24  209                  THE CHAIRMAN:  Did you want to make a
25     comment here, Juan Carlos?


 1  210                  MR. CANALES-LEYTON:  Yes.  I think
 2     returning to the university radio but also with
 3     community television --
 4  211                  But allow me to go back to your
 5     previous statement that there is no commercial ethnic
 6     radio stations available in town.  I understand that
 7     CHIN is available through cable, that whoever was to
 8     buy a little adaptor can listen to CHIN radio station
 9     through their cable connections -- and please don't
10     take this as a --
11  212                  MS PARSONS:  I know we service FM.
12  213                  MR. CANALES-LEYTON:  Huh?
13  214                  MS PARSONS:  I know we have FM radio
14     stations but I don't know which exactly.
15  215                  MR. CANALES-LEYTON:  CHIN, yes.  It
16     does come.
17  216                  THE CHAIRMAN:  Is CHIN one of the
18     CANCOM?
19  217                  MR. RODGER:  Yes, and as a matter of
20     fact, it's on -- I know it's on Expressview.  I'm not
21     sure whether it's on Star Choice --
22  218                  MR. CANALES-LEYTON:  I never heard
23     it.  I'm sorry.  My brother works there but he tells me
24     all these things.  You can go and install this thing. 
25     It costs you 50 cents.  I can get you the programs on


 1     the Internet and you can determine when you can listen
 2     to Spanish --
 3  219                  THE CHAIRMAN:  The Internet is not on
 4     the cable system?
 5  220                  MR. CANALES-LEYTON:  No, the Internet
 6     for the programming of CHIN radio.  They have the
 7     programming profiles on the Internet and then you can
 8     find out when you can listen to your specific program.
 9  221                  But I go back a few years and there
10     were community programs -- and please don't take this
11     wrongly -- in Dartmouth for the Multicultural Council
12     of Halifax-Dartmouth.  Eventually, there was an
13     apparent power struggle between staff at the cable
14     station and the people from the Multicultural Council
15     who were in charge of the production.
16  222                  The clash came in the way of "I'm in
17     charge and I will put on whatever I decide."  And that
18     is not a true community cooperation.  So the end result
19     is there is no more Multicultural Council programming
20     to the level that it was 10 years ago.  Yet, the
21     population is larger.  The ethnic minority population
22     is larger.
23  223                  So there was a -- that's why we
24     included this concept of any licensing tool of
25     programming should include participation by the groups


 1     that will be end users or listeners or viewers of any
 2     of these programs -- hands-on.  Otherwise, it cannot be
 3     done for them without that -- in Toronto perhaps, maybe
 4     in Vancouver, but here, no.  Not here.
 5  224                  The local media does not have the
 6     know-how to deal with the communities that it serves
 7     and I would like to have the opportunity to demonstrate
 8     the point, at a later date, with the media at large.
 9  225                  THE CHAIRMAN:  So given that, how do
10     you think we should, again, collectively work to
11     overcome that problem?
12  226                  Before you answer, it's true, I
13     guess, that when the Commission first established the
14     community channel policy back in the early seventies
15     that the idea of -- the spirit of it at least behind
16     the original establishment was that the cable operator
17     would provide the equipment, the community groups would
18     come into the studio, the cable operator would provide
19     training on how to use the equipment and so on, and
20     then, the community groups themselves would put the
21     programming together.
22  227                  I think it's probably fair to say
23     that over the years, for a number of reasons, we have
24     gravitated away from that.  It may well have been a
25     clash of personalities but I don't think it's unique


 1     here.  I think it's true, right across the country,
 2     that the cable operators have gradually become -- how
 3     shall I say? -- more professional.  That's not a
 4     pejorative term, in this case, in terms of putting
 5     together programming.
 6  228                  MS PARSONS:  Well, yeah.
 7  229                  THE CHAIRMAN:  But it's also true
 8     that, in many cases, it's difficult to get people from
 9     the community to come in and put together their
10     program.  So for whatever reason, that has changed over
11     time.
12  230                  Do you want to make a comment?
13  231                  MS PARSONS:  If I could just speak to
14     that.  I don't recall that happening, that specific "We
15     decide what goes on so we're not the only show".
16  232                  I know that when the regulations were
17     starting to change -- a lot of community cable stations
18     across the country are experiencing it now -- it's the
19     fact that they have to realize that in order to survive
20     as a community channel they have to become more of a
21     value-added service and in doing so, you have to instil
22     certain regulations in terms of programming,
23     programming development, et cetera.
24  233                  If I recall specifically, there was
25     some problems around the actual, I guess, production


 1     elements or production value of programs that leave it
 2     to the end of the program.  As with every program,
 3     there are reasons why and why not programs get
 4     cancelled.
 5  234                  We still do multi-ethnic programming. 
 6     However, we don't necessarily do programming with the
 7     Multicultural Halifax-Dartmouth forum.  But we still do
 8     it and we don't deny it based on the fact that it was
 9     that association that decided not to do monthly
10     programming anymore and that was it.  You can't cancel
11     programming without a justifiable reason.  So I can't
12     remember -- I could look in my file but I don't think
13     it really happened that way.
14  235                  On community television, just
15     listening to some of the conversations, I find that
16     community television could be a very viable tool to use
17     by numerous groups, specifically what you were speaking
18     to in terms of informing people in our community about
19     what is going on where they come from.  That would
20     speak to relaxing the Foreign Content in community
21     television where only 40 per cent of our programming
22     can be of Foreign Content, in terms of actual radio
23     footage.
24  236                  We wouldn't have the resources,
25     obviously, available to make it possible to produce


 1     programming from many varieties of ethnic
 2     organizations.  We just don't have the people power to
 3     do it but that might be something to consider as well.
 4  237                  We do a Greek program right now, in
 5     which they do do a newscast in Greek and they also
 6     include in that some video from Greece.  But it is only
 7     a portion of the program.  So there is the intensive
 8     production requirements in terms of producing the
 9     program.  But that's something that -- just enlisting
10     might be a consideration that the Commission might
11     consider looking at that, the 40 per cent, the 40-60
12     split -- maybe consider relaxing it for programming --
13  238                  THE CHAIRMAN:  I guess the concern
14     that we might have -- and not to say we would be
15     opposed to it -- it's just a consideration on how one
16     would structure this sort of thing is that the more
17     relaxed you get on foreign programming for a community
18     channel, the less community-oriented you may become.
19  239                  MS PARSONS:  Well, I could speak
20     specifically to the communities that -- each
21     representative.  For example, in Halifax, if you're
22     going to do an Arabic program, for example.  There is a
23     huge population who would benefit from it.  Maybe you
24     can speak to it that way, in terms of what the
25     demographics are in the communities that their channels


 1     are servicing.
 2  240                  MR. CANALES-LEYTON:  What is
 3     "foreign" as per the definition of the Commission?  Is
 4     languages in "foreign"?  Would that apply in Toronto,
 5     for example?
 6  241                  THE CHAIRMAN:  Well, I guess it could
 7     be language or where the program is produced.  I was
 8     going to ask you about that actually, about what your
 9     views would be about programming that was produced
10     elsewhere, targeted to various ethnic communities as
11     opposed to programming produced here in Canada.  Do you
12     have any thoughts on that?
13  242                  DR. ZAYID:  Well, it's an easier way
14     of getting programs directed at people in these
15     communities.  I think there ought to be an option like
16     this that is possible and obviously within certain
17     regulations.
18  243                  MR. CANALES-LEYTON:  I think that
19     Canadian-produced programming should have a priority
20     over any other program.  I think that the only reason
21     why we are around the table is because of Canada and
22     Canadians, not because (off mic) on Canada.  We happen
23     to come from different parts of the world, many of us,
24     and what we want to do is to be a mirror that will
25     reflect our original culture, the language, where we're


 1     living, whichever it may be, to the rest of the common
 2     people of the country.  But it should not be that I
 3     want to isolate myself and I would just become
 4     Spanish-speaking only.  That would be erroneous.
 5  244                  THE CHAIRMAN:  That's a bit of a
 6     problem, I think, that we have had in understanding
 7     these issues, about to what extent do we take that
 8     approach as opposed to providing programming from the
 9     homeland, if you will, for various ethnic groups, just
10     for them to sort of keep in touch.  But that speaks to
11     the question about providing either that programming on
12     domestic Canadian services or adding some of those
13     services.
14  245                  We have what we call the eligible
15     satellite list where we allow the cable operators to
16     choose from a list of satellite signals.  Largely, they
17     are American signals which end up being the specialty
18     services, you know, Arts and Entertainment and these. 
19     But we also have a number of -- there's a Portuguese
20     channel and so on that are available for cable
21     operators to pick up should they choose to do so.
22  246                  Now in many markets, the size of the
23     number of households in the community just may not
24     warrant them, given the relatively limited channel
25     capacity to add that service on the list.  But there


 1     are a number of options there in terms of foreign
 2     programming.
 3  247                  MR. CANALES-LEYTON:  If I just might,
 4     just before you speak -- this is an excellent program,
 5     in my view, on the CBC, which is about the Pacific Rim,
 6     and there is an excellent way of presenting the world
 7     to Canadians who may be from that part of the world. 
 8     It gives them a quick update.  It goes through many
 9     countries in the 30 minutes that it usually lasts and
10     it informs you.
11  248                  At first, I wanted to watch it
12     because of the name.  To me, "In Pacific Rim" was all
13     about economics and money.  I saw it once and I said,
14     well, this is not what the impression gives.  But that
15     is a Canadian-produced show that gives a vision of the
16     world, that has footage from the rest of the world,
17     yet, it maintains its Canadian perspective.  I'm sorry
18     for jumping ahead of you.
19  249                  MS VAN LEEUWEN:  It was interesting
20     when we discussed, at work, this third question about:
21                            "Should there be a priority on
22                            the development of Canadian...
23                            rather than importing foreign
24                            services?"
25  250                  I guess one thing that the different


 1     immigrant populations bring to mainstream Canadian life
 2     that is so stimulating is a fresh perspective and
 3     providing mainstream Canadians with an opportunity to
 4     question some of the things that we take for granted
 5     about our own culture.  At my workplace, we interpreted
 6     "foreign" as "American".  I must be talking about
 7     things made in the United States.
 8  251                  THE CHAIRMAN:  Actually, in this
 9     context, we probably talk about everything but
10     American.
11  252                  MS VAN LEEUWEN:  But that is a point
12     I would like to make which relates back to the anecdote
13     that I related earlier.
14  253                  THE CHAIRMAN:  I am wondering too, in
15     the context of the other comment that you made about --
16     I think it was you that made the comment about the
17     hurricane in Honduras and how typically the commercial
18     or even the public broadcaster will cover that story on
19     the day or depending on how big the disaster is for
20     maybe the next few days and then it's gone.  I wonder
21     if it's reasonable to expect that a Canadian
22     broadcaster would continue to cover that kind of a
23     story as opposed to picking up the Latin American
24     service or whatever it is --
25  254                  MS VAN LEEUWEN:  Well certainly,


 1     these are very general critiques that one could make. 
 2     I'm not sure, necessarily, looking at ethnocultural --
 3  255                  THE CHAIRMAN:  M'hm.  But I guess my
 4     comment back is "Soon".  I think your critique is a
 5     good one, is how best would one go about resolving
 6     taking up issues like that and having more thorough
 7     coverage of --  I think in the case of the Arab
 8     situation, we just don't get enough coverage, it seems
 9     to me, about understanding --
10  256                  DR. ZAYID:  Yes, that's basically the
11     problem.  I can't repeat it often enough:  this
12     offensive stereotyping must stop.
13  257                  MR. CANALES-LEYTON:  Just to give you
14     an idea, language-wise, you tell me, a news report that
15     does not have the war gone into a crusade.  You tell me
16     what the crusades were about, if not killing Muslims
17     and taking land back from Muslims.  I mentioned this to
18     a professor of journalism not long ago and he promised
19     never to use the word in that context ever again --
20     pardon the redundancy.
21  258                  But that goes -- in the common
22     language, we accept these things as -- or is the
23     make-up something -- why use a religious symbol as a
24     source of where everybody goes to for business, for
25     entertainment, for whatever.  Language has a lot to do


 1     with work.
 2  259                  But you were focusing mostly on news
 3     items when you were saying about sourcing from other
 4     countries.
 5  260                  THE CHAIRMAN:  Well, I was just using
 6     it as an example because Arlene mentioned the issue
 7     about people here who may be from Honduras would still
 8     want to know what is happening back home, in terms of
 9     the rebuilding and so on.  Now, I don't know whether
10     it's reasonable to expect that the Canadian
11     broadcasters are going to continue to cover that story
12     when there are lots of other stories that are happening
13     in the meantime or whether, somehow or other, one plugs
14     into the news service from...
15  261                  MR. CANALES-LEYTON:  I personally see
16     no problem with seeing news from other -- that
17     originate in other countries.  We see BBC running now
18     through the CBC.  They have a special broadcast
19     regularly -- not a special -- regular broadcasts that
20     we get to see a different perspective of the world,
21     which is not necessarily the Canadian perspective.  Of
22     course, we have CNN there, at every moment.
23  262                  THE CHAIRMAN:  Well, I was on a panel
24     recently -- I would say this is kind of an interesting
25     anecdote -- I was on a panel recently with the guy who


 1     runs CNN International and I said to him, "I find it
 2     somewhat curious that in Canada we don't get CNN
 3     International.  We get the domestic CNN."
 4  263                  MR. CANALES-LEYTON:  It's a domestic
 5     market, yes.
 6  264                  THE CHAIRMAN:  His comment was -- he
 7     is actually originally from Britain and his comment was
 8     that it would annoy him too because CNN is actually
 9     finding that, as the CNN service goes throughout the
10     world, you cannot have a CNN International service. 
11     You have to take CNN and tailor it to the market in
12     China, the market in India, the market -- probably not
13     even in South America -- the market in Brazil or...
14  265                  MR. CANALES-LEYTON:  They have, they
15     have.
16  266                  THE CHAIRMAN:  I know they do but
17     what he is finding now is if you really want to sell
18     that service in different markets, you have to tailor
19     the service to serve the needs of that market and you
20     can't just throw up a single CNN International
21     throughout the world and have it be popular in each
22     market as people simply can't relate to it unless it
23     addresses their concerns.
24  267                  MR. CANALES-LEYTON:  The CNN
25     experience, if it were applicable to Canada, I think


 1     that CBC International or whatever is left of it, it
 2     could become a second -- I mean, CBC International
 3     could become -- if it were to follow the steps of CNN,
 4     it could perhaps go beyond what CNN has accomplished: 
 5     number one, accepted around the world is better of
 6     Canada than of the United States; number two, the view
 7     of Canadians are necessarily not as aggressive as the
 8     Americans.
 9  268                  We are seen -- we as a Canadian
10     society -- more unbiased, as the Americans would be,
11     and we have all this multicultural ethno-minority
12     resources that we can tap from and give them the view
13     that they are expecting to see, but from here.
14  269                  It was tried with the radio.  Why
15     could it not be done with other resources, in all this
16     programming that I am suggesting, not necessarily the
17     news only?  It could be cultural, general.  What does a
18     Chilean fellow do in Halifax?  Go back to Chile?  I am
19     sure they will be interested.  They would want to know
20     what is going on.
21  270                  I saw a show on an American channel
22     of -- I think it was Peruvians around the world.  It
23     was produced -- telling the story of different
24     Peruvians in Africa, in the States, et cetera, et
25     cetera.  It was produced here and it had great


 1     acceptance, I understand, in Peru and in most
 2     Spanish-speaking countries.
 3  271                  So I think that we could export this
 4     cultural aspect of ours.  Why we're not doing it I
 5     don't know.  Maybe we need more people pro-CBC and
 6     other networks in those countries or in those regions
 7     of the world so that we could have a better sense of
 8     what we could be exporting.
 9  272                  THE CHAIRMAN:  We may have covered
10     this off indirectly but the programming that's on radio
11     or television -- and television includes cable -- I
12     would take it, given from the discussion that we have
13     had, you would argue it should be mostly in English or
14     French, depending on the market, not in the language
15     that is...
16  273                  DR. ZAYID:  Well, I think it ought to
17     be a bit of both.  For the young people, the idea of
18     maintaining a link to their ethnic language, I think,
19     would be useful and I think that would be -- but it
20     ought not to be the dominant component.  I think a
21     component of a language, for example, in the Arabic
22     program would be very useful for people.
23  274                  THE CHAIRMAN:  But not dominant.
24  275                  DR. ZAYID:  No.
25  276                  THE CHAIRMAN:  Fiona, the work that


 1     you have been doing, is that largely English or is it
 2     all English?
 3  277                  MS YORK:  A lot is in English.  There
 4     are four shows.  One is all Arabic -- two are all
 5     Arabic; one is actually mostly English; and one is
 6     mostly Arabic.  Three of them are done by students --
 7     so the younger people -- and some do actually feel
 8     strongly that it's important to have a lot of Arabic
 9     content and make a point of doing that.
10  278                  So even the younger people, in some
11     cases, they feel that having the Arabic content is
12     important, but they also see the validity of the
13     English not only because they are seeing that other
14     people may not understand the Arabic but other people
15     that may not speak Arabic can get something from it.
16  279                  MR. CANALES-LEYTON:  There is one
17     danger with multi-language programming, in my view, and
18     that is if we do not screen the broadcasters through
19     their own peers, we may end up with people who are all
20     slang-talking being broadcasters and ultimately to be
21     the ones who are teaching our youth.  But I think that
22     gives validity to the point we make in that any efforts
23     of this nature should be in conjunction, in
24     cooperation, and in partnership with the recognized
25     groups.


 1  280                  So among many, you can determine the
 2     ones who speak best or write better.  I would hate to
 3     see some of the people I know who speak Spanish write
 4     for a newspaper in Spanish.  I would just kill myself
 5     looking at their spelling and the construction of their
 6     language.
 7  281                  So if we are talking about
 8     preservation and availability of the actual language,
 9     it should be based on the fact that the people who are
10     commonly known to be the ones who speak it properly and
11     write it properly, are the ones who actually get to do
12     it.
13  282                  THE CHAIRMAN:  I guess that would be
14     the case of the broadcasters working with community
15     groups such as yours in order to try and establish that
16     because --
17  283                  DR. ZAYID:  Yes, and selecting,
18     obviously, appropriate programs in the proper language. 
19     I think that's possible.  That is not beyond achieving.
20  284                  THE CHAIRMAN:  Arlene.
21  285                  MS VAN LEEUWEN:  Fiona, may I ask
22     you, the so-called ethnic Arabic programs that you do: 
23     Do you have a public education interest one?
24  286                  MS YORK:  It's more, I think, for the
25     groups themselves.  I think usually the idea is more


 1     that it's people from the groups providing programming
 2     for other people in their communities but there is just
 3     the offshoot, I think.  Even if it's not in English, I
 4     think just the fact that people tune in and hear shows
 5     that are in different languages makes -- you know,
 6     there is sort of an acknowledgement or there is a
 7     purpose in that too.
 8  287                  There are a few shows which are, I
 9     think, like you have mentioned, shows where there is
10     just a variety of music from different cultures.  So it
11     kind of helps.
12  288                  I actually think that if there was
13     any change in the definition of ethnic programming --
14     that is now considered type e) but it's not included in
15     the 15 per cent maximum -- I think, if anything, that
16     should probably -- I think it's very useful and helpful
17     but I would think it should not be included because I
18     don't feel they see that as the same type of thing.
19  289                  But our main purpose, I think, is to
20     provide an outlet for the community to provide
21     programming for other people in the community as
22     opposed to for public education, although that is
23     important and helpful as well.
24  290                  MS VAN LEEUWEN:  (Off mic...)
25  291                  DR. ZAYID:  But the programs in


 1     English are very useful educationally and they are
 2     accessible to the community at large.  I mean our
 3     thoughts went into some of these programs and people
 4     have commented about them and they are informational
 5     and educational.
 6  292                  THE CHAIRMAN:  Fiona, you expressed a
 7     concern about having trouble meeting the Canadian
 8     Content.  Was that Canadian Content overall or was it
 9     in the ethnic programs?
10  293                  MS YORK:  It was in the ethnic
11     programs.
12  294                  THE CHAIRMAN:  And what would you
13     suggest we do about that?
14  295                  MS YORK:  Well, I would think lower
15     it from the 7 per cent it is now but I don't have
16     another number to suggest.  I don't necessarily mean to
17     go so far as to say it shouldn't exist at all but that
18     it should be lowered.
19  296                  THE CHAIRMAN:  Is this more a
20     question of interpretation of what it is because we
21     talked a little bit about -- it seems to me the views
22     around the table here have largely seemed to be that
23     the programming, for the most part, should be
24     programming that is produced here.  So where do you
25     fall down on not meeting the --


 1  297                  MS YORK:  Well, the music that's
 2     included for Canadian Content, it is often hard, I
 3     would say, for an Arabic group to find music that fits
 4     the Canadian Content that is also appropriate to the
 5     show because there is not a lot of Arabic music that is
 6     being produced here that they have access to, that they
 7     can play to meet the 7 per cent, and if they do, they
 8     are playing the same thing every week, just to make
 9     their 7 per cent.  So it makes it kind of hard and
10     there's no Polish music that can be found.
11  298                  I guess another option would be
12     either to lower it or to provide an innate mechanism
13     where we can write to ask for an exception for a
14     certain show where it's just not possible for that
15     community.  There might be somewhere -- it's like
16     fourth or fifth generation where it is impossible to
17     find things that are being produced in Canada that are
18     appropriate to that show.
19  299                  THE CHAIRMAN:  Do you think we even
20     should be concerned about it within ethnic programming?
21  300                  MS YORK:  Well, that's another
22     option.  Maybe it could just not exist.
23  301                  DR. ZAYID:  Just out of ignorance, is
24     this foreign component related to the entire program or
25     just to the particular -- say we did an ethnic program,


 1     does that -- is there a requirement in that program
 2     that so much be Canadian Content or is it the whole
 3     program at CKDU, for example, or whatever?
 4  302                  MS YORK:  Within a show, if it's an
 5     hour and a half show, if it's an Arabic show, they
 6     would have to be 7 per cent of the music played within
 7     that show --
 8  303                  DR. ZAYID:  Of that show.
 9  304                  MS YORK:  -- that would have to be
10     Canadian Content.
11  305                  THE CHAIRMAN:  If it's a music show.
12  306                  MS YORK:  Yes.
13  307                  MR. CANALES-LEYTON:  So if we watch
14     TV, then they could lip sync and they would fulfil the
15     7 per cent, would they not?
16     --- Laughter / Rires
17  308                  MR. CANALES-LEYTON:  It is very
18     common.  No, no, no, please.  It's a very common
19     practice in the music.  That's what they do.  They
20     don't sing themselves.  They lip sync.  So TV is better
21     prepared to meet the quota than radio, from that
22     perspective -- musically speaking.
23  309                  MS YORK:  I guess so.
24  310                  MR. CANALES-LEYTON:  Interesting.
25  311                  THE CHAIRMAN:  Dylan, are you still


 1     there?
 2  312                  MR. JONES:  Yes.
 3  313                  THE CHAIRMAN:  Do you have any
 4     comments on the discussion we have heard so far or do
 5     you have any questions you would like to pose?
 6  314                  MR. JONES:  Well, first of all, it's
 7     not by show for Canadian -- for musical collections. 
 8     During the ethnic programming period for the broadcast
 9     week, 7 per cent of the musical selections have to be
10     Canadian.
11  315                  In any case, we are listening and it
12     has been a very interesting discussion and we are
13     taking it in and what not, but just for the record.
14  316                  THE CHAIRMAN:  Do you have any
15     other -- of the issues that we have been trying to
16     cover off, both in the Public Notice or just in the
17     consultations here, are there any other issues you
18     would like to pose any questions on while we're here?
19  317                  MR. BATSTONE:  Well, one of the ideas
20     that the CRTC have been sort of discussing around has
21     been -- this is Geoff, by the way.  I forgot to
22     identify myself --
23  318                  THE CHAIRMAN:  That's okay.  I did.
24  319                  MR. BATSTONE:  -- has been some sort
25     of national register of musical selections which would


 1     facilitate a higher level of Canadian Content because
 2     people in one area of Canada would perhaps be more
 3     aware of what is being produced in other areas of
 4     Canada but which might not be available on a national
 5     basis.  I wondered if maybe anybody had any comments
 6     about that.
 7  320                  Is it the lack of local availability
 8     of ethnic musical selection or is it not knowing about
 9     Canadian ethnic musical selections, given that a lot of
10     them are locally sourced?  I wonder if Fiona could
11     comment on that.
12  321                  MS YORK:  Do you mean are we having
13     trouble finding locally produced music that fits or
14     Canadian?
15  322                  MR. BATSTONE:  No, what I mean is, is
16     the difficulty that you can't -- is the issue one of
17     the availability of Canadian ethnic music or is it just
18     sort of finding it?
19  323                  MS YORK:  I think it's both.  I would
20     say it's both because the programmers are generally
21     pretty knowledgeable about the material and we
22     encourage them as well if they know of something that
23     would fit on their show to let us know so we can try to
24     get that for them and often it's just not -- either
25     way, it can't be found and it's not known to exist.


 1  324                  MR. BATSTONE:  Well, in the context
 2     of the discussion about other types of programming and
 3     finding the appropriate balance between Canadian
 4     Content and Foreign Content, do some of those issues
 5     apply in the context of music that we -- should the
 6     Commission be concerned and, indeed, others -- the
 7     David Colville "we" -- should we be concerned about
 8     promoting and encouraging the ethnic musical industry
 9     in Canada?  Is it important to promote knowledge about
10     the distribution of, indeed, the production of Canadian
11     ethnic music?
12  325                  MS YORK:  I think that would be
13     helpful but I think that putting a minimum percentage
14     on, whether it's across the board or on a certain show,
15     isn't necessarily the way to do it because I think then
16     it's just an issue of acceptability and people being
17     intimidated about doing a show because they can't find
18     that material.
19  326                  THE CHAIRMAN:  How important do you
20     think music is relative to other types of programming
21     that we might have addressing a lot of these concerns?
22  327                  DR. ZAYID:  I would consider it's
23     only a component and not the most important component.
24  328                  THE CHAIRMAN:  Relatively minor?
25  329                  DR. ZAYID:  Yes, I would say so.


 1  330                  THE CHAIRMAN:  Arlene.
 2  331                  MS VAN LEEUWEN:  That's not what was
 3     expressed certainly by my co-workers.  They were
 4     concerned with news coverage, just keeping in touch
 5     with their country, what is happening in their country.
 6  332                  MR. CANALES-LEYTON:  Would that be
 7     because they are concentrating -- are they going to the
 8     media to obtain news rather than for entertainment
 9     only?
10  333                  MS VAN LEEUWEN:  Yes.
11  334                  MR. CANALES-LEYTON:  I remember I
12     came packed with LPs, when I came to Canada in 78, to
13     listen to my music.  I anticipated I would not be able
14     to find it here but I think the university reality will
15     be far different from that of -- that music will be an
16     important component.  I know from two teenagers who are
17     going to university who expressed a big desire for
18     music.
19  335                  MS YORK:  I would say just given the
20     stations where I have worked and what I have seen, I
21     think that a lot of the cultural shows are not
22     necessarily reflecting university students.  It's
23     often -- I have seen a total diversity in age groups of
24     the people sitting together and I think that the
25     reason -- all of the ones I have seen pretty much fit


 1     partly as they can impart spoken words.
 2  336                  I think it's just because if there is
 3     going to be, for instance, an Asian show on a station,
 4     it's most likely the only Asian show in that city.  So
 5     they are going to have -- they have to do everything in
 6     that show.  So they have to do music and they have to
 7     do spoken words.  So it ends up that they play music
 8     and they have news and information because there is
 9     just no other outlet.  So they have to cover
10     everything.
11  337                  Now, I don't -- this is a question. 
12     I'm not sure if this is the case.  If a show -- would a
13     show like that that has both music and spoken word be
14     considered -- say if it was 50 per cent music and 50
15     per cent spoken word, could it fit under a different
16     category where it wasn't a music show so there was no
17     minimum Can Con?
18  338                  If they played 40 per cent music and
19     the rest was spoken word, if there is a mechanism -- if
20     it doesn't already exist, I'm not sure -- if there is a
21     mechanism where you could say, "Well, this is a
22     cultural show.  We just need our music -- no spoken
23     word."
24  339                  Therefore, they have no Can Con
25     quotient, whereas if it was an Arabic show, if we had


 1     unlimited numbers of Arabic shows, we could have one
 2     that is all devoted to music.  That could be the music
 3     cultural show and that could have a minimum Can Con
 4     percentage but the other ones, or in cases where
 5     there's only one show for a certain group, it would be
 6     considered exempt because they're not primarily music
 7     and have no Can Con requirement, is that --
 8  340                  THE CHAIRMAN:  My easy answer to that
 9     is that sounds like an interesting proposal.  Dylan, do
10     you want to comment on that?
11  341                  MR. JONES:  I like your answer.
12     --- Laughter / Rires
13  342                  MR. JONES:  I'm thinking of one other
14     question and it's not specific to radio, although it
15     arises from the point about CHIN's distribution in
16     Halifax.  We have been talking, in discussion, about
17     the balance between Canadian national programming and
18     foreign programming.
19  343                  Now, one of the things that is
20     obvious about CHIN being distributed in the Halifax
21     region is it raises the question of the balance
22     between -- that's the case where you have, in Toronto,
23     (off mic) being available in a region.  How important
24     is that?
25  344                  Is it essential that there be local


 1     production in Halifax relating to the community in
 2     Halifax?  Where is the balance there in terms of -- is
 3     there a great need for ethnic programming to be
 4     regionally produced?  That relates also to issues about
 5     the place of specialties and that type of thing.
 6  345                  DR. ZAYID:  I wouldn't have thought
 7     so.  I think the essence of it is, as long as it's a
 8     program of interest to the ethnic community, it doesn't
 9     matter where it is produced.  I don't think the
10     emphasis is that it has to be produced locally.
11  346                  Obviously, on issues about local
12     content, like the CKDU does, programs related to the
13     community, that obviously needs to be generated
14     locally, but not all the programs.
15  347                  MR. CANALES-LEYTON:  An ideal
16     situation, I think, would be -- and maybe it's too
17     radical -- but the same way you get the main networks
18     to have the national news or the national programs and
19     you have the regional programming.  Why put in radio
20     stations, such as CHIN or whichever, right here?  Have
21     a local web, say in CKDU, and CKDU will beam up 30
22     minutes a week or 2 hours a week of locally produced
23     programming to satisfy the local needs and just (off
24     mic) that national aspect but be carried through the
25     CHIN network.  It doesn't have to be one with the


 1     exclusion of the other.  The market is not that large
 2     here to have competition.
 3  348                  THE CHAIRMAN:  Well, in fact, the
 4     market is not.  With the exception of the programming
 5     that CKDU does, the market is not even large enough for
 6     us to sustain an ethnic station here, of any sort --
 7     well, except for the programming that CKDU does.
 8  349                  So I guess, Dylan, to answer your
 9     question then, what I'm hearing here is having CHIN
10     brought in from Toronto, even if a lot of its
11     programming tends to reflect the concerns of the
12     Toronto community and probably is talking about how
13     they are not able to clear the snow off some of the
14     streets there -- and by the way, we have no snow
15     here -- that that would be better than having no ethnic
16     programming here or it could well supplement the
17     programming that there is.
18  350                  DR. ZAYID:  I think that's true.
19  351                  MR. CANALES-LEYTON:  Yes, Vision TV
20     does exactly the same.  They have regional producers
21     and you go to them.  Then, if you want a program
22     produced here to be put on the main network, you
23     convince them and it goes.
24  352                  THE CHAIRMAN:  Actually, I'm not
25     aware that -- notwithstanding what Juan Carlos said, I


 1     would have guessed that CHIN was available off of
 2     CANCOM and, therefore, would be available on the
 3     smaller cable systems to pick up the CANCOM service. 
 4     But I'm not aware that any of the larger cable stations
 5     take the radio services off of CANCOM and offer them in
 6     the communities.
 7  353                  MR. CANALES-LEYTON:  Maybe you can
 8     enlighten us as to what CANCOM is.
 9  354                  THE CHAIRMAN:  CANCOM is Canadian
10     Satellite Communications, which is a satellite
11     distributor of television signals but regionally
12     licensed largely to distribute those to smaller and
13     more remote communities.  But also it offers a
14     competitive alternative to LAN distribution systems for
15     some of the U.S. signals and some other distant
16     Canadian signals.  They do offer a package of radio
17     program services as well.
18  355                  So depending on what our current rule
19     is -- I don't know even, Dylan, whether our current
20     rule prohibits it.  My understanding is it probably
21     just doesn't even address it as to whether or not --
22     and I don't know whether David would have a comment on
23     that about whether the CAB would have concerns about
24     ethnic stations being offered on cable systems, ethnic
25     stations that would be licensed in Toronto.  Certainly,


 1     they wouldn't be taking any commercial advertising out
 2     of the market here.  But I think probably you don't
 3     want to make a comment right now.
 4  356                  MR. MacLEAN:  It's certainly a touchy
 5     issue (off mic) in that also present would be
 6     established in that particular (off mic).
 7  357                  MR. JONES:  I actually just don't
 8     know what the situation is on the distribution of
 9     Canadian ethnic audio signals in the Atlantic
10     provinces.  I wouldn't add anything further to that.
11  358                  THE CHAIRMAN:  Well, I think it's an
12     issue worth considering anyway, both the pros and the
13     cons that there may be.
14  359                  Does anybody have anything else they
15     want to raise?
16  360                  MR. CANALES-LEYTON:  Just an add-on
17     to that note that no preference should be given to
18     national networks to the detriment of local possible
19     ventures, that whatever local venture may be possible
20     that they be given preference and pampering so that
21     they can evolve rather than because the other ones are
22     established and they are here already, let's keep them
23     and forget the other ones.
24  361                  MR. RODGER:  Should a national one be
25     taken off if there was a local one that you liked?


 1  362                  MR. CANALES-LEYTON:  That is an
 2     interesting proposition.  My brother-in-law might want
 3     to kill me but I think I would prefer that.
 4  363                  MR. JONES:  Just to clarify, there
 5     is, under the Broadcasting Distribution Regulations, no
 6     impediment to distribution -- undertaking distributing
 7     no distant audio Canadian signal.  What we're not sure
 8     of is exactly who is being distributed where.
 9  364                  THE CHAIRMAN:  Yes, I agree.  I'm not
10     aware of anything in the Regs that says you cannot do
11     this.  I'm just not aware of anybody doing it in any of
12     the major centres.
13  365                  Is there anything else?
14  366                  Arlene.
15  367                  Fiona.
16  368                  MS YORK:  I had a couple of things
17     just on what you were saying there.  I think that I
18     would definitely echo that because I wasn't quite sure
19     what your suggestion was about CHIN moving to CKDU, but
20     if your suggestion was that if there was some way of
21     carrying a brief portion of CHIN programming on CKDU, I
22     think that even if that was a possibility, we would
23     probably hesitate to even do that just because it is
24     national and we really focus on local programming.  We
25     probably would just think, "This is getting airing in a


 1     lot of other places.  It's not appropriate for us to
 2     carry that."  We would rather try to produce our own
 3     programming that meets the same needs.
 4  369                  The other thing is the last part of
 5     the discussion was about a lot of sort of different,
 6     potential services like having a special ethnic
 7     station, a community station or having cable stations
 8     and things like that.  I think those are fine ideas but
 9     I just think that, in a lot of ways, that is just
10     continuing the marginalization of ethnic programming
11     groups.
12  370                  If you have to go searching for some
13     little 50-watt station or some ethnic broadcast you
14     never hear about, the whole point is that you are
15     trying to raise awareness and make it part of the
16     mainstream, something that is easy and accessible to
17     get.
18  371                  I think if we are fighting to
19     increase the number of hours we can do on a tiny
20     station or find a cable station or sub-carriers or
21     whatever, it's just not meeting the ideas that -- you
22     were saying public education, too, is really important,
23     that people have to be able to see the faces on the CBC
24     on the morning show and see them on TV and that
25     affirmative action is really helpful in those places


 1     because everyone is seeing that.  It's not just being
 2     set aside for some special station that -- you know,
 3     you might look for it and you might look for it but a
 4     lot of other people aren't going to look for and aren't
 5     going to see those things.
 6  372                  So it's totally (off mic) to the
 7     public education aspect and continues the
 8     marginalization and limits the accessibility and takes
 9     the responsibility away from commercial stations, which
10     is what they should be having in the first place.
11  373                  THE CHAIRMAN:  Look, I don't disagree
12     with anything you have said.  I think all we are
13     looking at, with the case of CHIN, for example, would
14     be typically, in some of the more larger centres, we
15     license ethnic radio stations.  Part of the conditions
16     that we have with them because largely, they will come
17     forward and say, "There is this huge Chinese community
18     or Indian community in our area we think we can provide
19     service to."  But as part of their conditions, we
20     generally make them provide service in other languages
21     as well.
22  374                  So if, for example, CKDU is only able
23     to, let's say, serve four different groups, language
24     groups, ethnic groups, here in Halifax, but CHIN is
25     serving 18, you could bring CHIN in on cable.  Anybody


 1     who has cable television could get the CHIN radio
 2     service and have access to all those other languages
 3     that may serve different pockets of the community here
 4     in Halifax, which may never be large enough to provide
 5     a service on their own because of the relative make-up. 
 6     Any one is so small -- in fact, altogether, it may be
 7     so small, it isn't evident that you would be able to
 8     have enough put together to have an ethnic station that
 9     could survive in this market.  So that was that but
10     that shouldn't take away from the comments about trying
11     to put a more pluralistic face on conventional
12     broadcasting.
13  375                  MR. CANALES-LEYTON:  If I just may
14     clarify, trying a little bit of a better English on my
15     part.  The idea was completely the opposite:  for CKDU
16     to be able to send programming through CHIN the same
17     way that local webs are able to send information
18     through the networks.  We have a good quality program
19     show.  Why not from the East Coast to all across Canada
20     through the established channel?  It was ethnic and not
21     (off mic).
22  376                  THE CHAIRMAN:  Geoff or Dylan, is
23     anybody talking about this sort of idea, of maybe sort
24     of more networking -- and I use that in both senses of
25     the word -- in order to provide sort of more of a


 1     national face, if you will, in terms of dealing with
 2     some of these issues?
 3  377                  MR. JONES:  I'm just going to clarify
 4     one thing.  We have been using CHIN as an example. 
 5     CHIN is an over-the-air conventional broadcaster in
 6     Toronto and its mandate is to serve the Toronto market. 
 7     It's not a national -- it's not licensed as sort of a
 8     national force of radio ethnic programming for the
 9     country.
10  378                  Having said that --
11  379                  THE CHAIRMAN:  Yes, but Dylan,
12     everybody who lives in Toronto believes it's national.
13  380                  MR. JONES:  We're talking about a
14     particular licensee, but the larger idea -- sort of
15     leaving CHIN out of the picture -- the larger idea of a
16     radio network, sort of a radio network model, where you
17     have sort of national radio programming and maybe local
18     (off mic) is a really fascinating proposal.
19  381                  THE CHAIRMAN:  Well, maybe we can
20     keep that thought and maybe something can gel around
21     this idea.
22  382                  MR. CANALES-LEYTON:  (Off mic...)
23  383                  THE CHAIRMAN:  Juan Carlos actually
24     wants to bring the business here to compete against his
25     brother, that's what it's all about.


 1     --- Laughter / Rires
 2  384                  MR. CANALES-LEYTON:  Well, when I was
 3     asked to put the thinking cap on, I really did.  Do you
 4     see any negative -- not negative -- any -- let me
 5     restart here.  I'm thinking in Spanish first.
 6  385                  Would the concept of an ethnic
 7     minority-oriented programming advisory committee to the
 8     CRTC in each major centre of the country be something
 9     that you would be warm to the idea of?
10  386                  THE CHAIRMAN:  Sure.  Yes.  Yes,
11     absolutely.
12  387                  MR. CANALES-LEYTON:  I'm not talking
13     only the people from other countries and other
14     cultures.  We have Fiona, for example.  She is running
15     the reality of CKDU radio.  She knows exactly what she
16     is talking about.  It doesn't have to be
17     immigrant-based only but people who are in the crux of
18     the matter of ethnic minorities.
19  388                  THE CHAIRMAN:  And that could be
20     advising on ethnic issues on ethnic stations or ethnic
21     issues or lack thereof on conventional --
22  389                  MR. CANALES-LEYTON:  In situations
23     such as the bad portrayals in the news world, it could
24     be brought up more directly and more easily through
25     this council right to whatever body, whether it is the


 1     CRTC or the media at large --
 2  390                  DR. ZAYID:  Some advisory committee
 3     of some --
 4  391                  MR. CANALES-LEYTON:  Yes.
 5  392                  THE CHAIRMAN:  Yes.  And perhaps even
 6     working together with CAB and the CBC instead of --
 7     otherwise so we can get the education process going on.
 8  393                  MS VAN LEEUWEN:  May I ask --
 9  394                  THE CHAIRMAN:  Arlene.
10  395                  MS VAN LEEUWEN:  Is there a similar
11     type of body for, for example, native broadcasting? 
12     How does that operate?  Is it a separate department?
13  396                  THE CHAIRMAN:  You mean, is there an
14     advisory body for --
15  397                  MS VAN LEEUWEN:  Yes, such as --
16  398                  THE CHAIRMAN:  Not really.  Not that
17     I'm aware of.  Dylan or Geoff?  I mean we work with the
18     native community.  We have licensed Northern Native
19     Television and they have applied for a licence to have
20     their service carried in the south.  In fact, our
21     decision should be out shortly on that.  There is no --
22  399                  MS VAN LEEUWEN:  Direct analogy.
23  400                  THE CHAIRMAN:  -- no formal advisory
24     committee that I'm aware of.
25  401                  MR. CANALES-LEYTON:  That's a healthy


 1     idea, I think.
 2  402                  THE CHAIRMAN:  It's a good idea.
 3  403                  Taking good notes, Dylan?
 4  404                  MR. JONES:  Yes, sir.
 5  405                  THE CHAIRMAN:  Anything else?
 6  406                  Do any of you observers have any
 7     comments they want to make?
 8  407                  MR. MacLEAN:  I should say that we
 9     should highlight the hearings of the Canadian Broadcast
10     Standards Council, which deal with many of the issues
11     that have been raised here today with regard to,
12     certainly, sensitizing broadcasters in English or
13     French to a lot of the concerns that may be raised with
14     group portrayals or stereotyping of various groups.
15  408                  I do know -- I'm just putting
16     forward, as a suggestion, that concerns of the nature
17     that you are raising, if they are forwarded to the
18     Canadian Broadcast Standards Council, they are dealt
19     with on a review process and certainly all of the
20     broadcasters are made aware of the decisions that come
21     out of these considerations as very, very helpful as a
22     sensitizing issue for the non-ethnic broadcasters,
23     let's put it that way.  That might be something that
24     you would want to consider when you do encounter these
25     matters.


 1  409                  It's not only -- the CBC has the
 2     mechanism to deal with these problems and the private
 3     broadcast sector has (off mic).
 4  410                  THE CHAIRMAN:  David, I thought that
 5     largely that's individual-specific complaint-driven?
 6  411                  MR. MacLEAN:  Yes.
 7  412                  THE CHAIRMAN:  So if there is a
 8     specific complaint about a specific story being biased,
 9     then the CBSC, Broadcast Standards Council -- well,
10     largely, the individual station.  Then if it doesn't
11     handle that complaint with satisfaction, then it goes
12     to the Council and is dealt with there.
13  413                  I guess the proposal here -- which I
14     think is good and certainly, from our point of view, we
15     appreciate the work that the Council is doing.  But I
16     guess we're talking here largely of a more general
17     sensitizing of dealing with these issues and that maybe
18     this sort of advisory kind of council that might
19     encompass more than just the Commission I'm working
20     with -- the broadcasters...
21  414                  DR. ZAYID:  This is just to
22     communicate this to whom?
23  415                  MR. MacLEAN:  To the Canadian
24     Broadcast Standards Council.  They are in Ottawa.  All
25     licensees subscribe, as a condition of licence, to the


 1     Standards Council.  Generally speaking, if for
 2     instance, there was a portrayal as you described in a
 3     particular newscast, with the newspaper, you can file a
 4     complaint with the Press Council.  With the
 5     broadcasters --
 6  416                  DR. ZAYID:  I have done that many
 7     times.
 8  417                  MR. MacLEAN:  You can file a
 9     complaint with the Canadian Broadcast Standards Council
10     that you object to this because it's stereotyping in a
11     negative fashion.  These complaints are dealt with by
12     the Broadcast Standards Council.
13  418                  We just have a constant flow of
14     information coming out of the Broadcast Standards
15     Council to us as broadcasters, certainly making us
16     aware about number of things:  a) that these are issues
17     that may not apply in our market but we are certainly
18     sensitized to it; and secondly, it's a constant
19     education process, I think, for the broadcasters in the
20     sense that they realize that these things that they
21     might have been just doing as a matter of common
22     experience may be offensive.  We tend to discuss this
23     with our staff on an ongoing basis.  So that vehicle is
24     there.
25  419                  DR. ZAYID:  Will the content of the


 1     submissions that we made in the discussions we made
 2     today reach your group?
 3  420                  MR. MacLEAN:  Oh, yes.
 4  421                  THE CHAIRMAN:  Well, this is all
 5     public information.
 6  422                  MR. MacLEAN:  I understand that
 7     transcripts will be prepared and will be posted -- of
 8     the session today -- on the Internet.  Am I correct?
 9  423                  THE CHAIRMAN:  Yes.
10  424                  MR. CANALES-LEYTON:  I think the
11     information you provided is very valuable.  However,
12     the voice of one individual, as loud as it may be, will
13     never be as effective or make as large as an impression
14     as the common voice of a group of people who are
15     concerned with the same situation.  I think that would
16     give validity to sort of a grouping or association of
17     individuals with concerns about broadcasting, not
18     necessarily to be lobbying but to be analyzing the
19     reality of their own region.  I think that is the
20     validity of the concept.  Then, of course, the
21     technicalities could be dealt with by the CRTC people
22     at large.
23  425                  DR. ZAYID:  Do you have an address
24     for your study you mentioned today?
25  426                  MR. MacLEAN:  We have that.


 1  427                  THE CHAIRMAN:  Well, I want to thank
 2     you all very much.  I think we have had a good
 3     discussion of the issues and this will all be helpful.
 4  428                  I think we have had some good
 5     suggestions here today and a good discussion of the
 6     issues but also some specific suggestions about how we
 7     might go forward with the policies on specific issues
 8     but some broader more general issues that I think would
 9     be effective as well.
10  429                  So we will be putting this together
11     with the information that we are hearing at the other
12     regional consultations plus the written information.  I
13     think Brien has copies of the Public Notice for those
14     of you who didn't have a copy.  So we welcome any
15     additional comments you might have.
16  430                  MR. BATSTONE:  It's Geoff again. 
17     Just to maybe emphasize on that point.  Written
18     comments can be filed through March 4th.  So anybody
19     who wants to supplement their comments in that way, we
20     would certainly welcome that.
21  431                  THE CHAIRMAN:  Well, with this, I
22     think I will declare this conversation ended.
23  432                  Thank you all very much.
24     --- Whereupon the hearing concluded at 1800 /
25         L'audience se termine à 1800
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