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Examen des politiques relatives à la télévision canadienne/
Review of the Commission's Policies for Canadian Television

Robson Square Conference Centre
Vancouver (Colombie-Britannique)
Le 22 juin 1998

Robson Square Conference Centre
Vancouver, British Columbia
22 June 1998


Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des télécommunications canadiennes
Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission

Transcription / Transcript

Consultation régionale/ regional consultation

Cindy Grauer Présidente/Chairperson
AndrÆe Wylie Conseiller/Commissioner
John Keogh Conseiller juridique/ Legal Counsel
Michelle Edge Gérante d'audience/ Hearing Manager
Marguerite Vogel Secrétaire/Secretary

TENUE AU:             HELD AT:
Robson Square                Robson Square
Conference Centre                Conference Centre
Vancouver                 Vancouver
(Colombie-Britannique)         British Columbia
Le 22 juin 1998                22 June 1998




Présentation au nom de/Presentation on behalf of:

Shyla Dutt 4

Sheri Graydon 17

Media Watch

Dorothy Sorley 27

Stan Fox 29

West Coast Media Society

Jeff Bear 38

Sid Tan 46

Faye Wightman 54

B.C. Children's Hospital Foundation

Amy Pollen 59

Dorothy Livingston 62

Victoria Council of Canadians

Darren Lowe 72

Richard Ward 75

Ann-Marie Sleeman 85

Sadie Kuehn 95

Affiliations of Multicultural Societies

and Service Agencies of B.C.

Steve Richards 103


Patrick Zulinov 107

Amir Gillni 112

Horizon Interfaith Council

Michael French 118

Doris Rankin 124

Clive Court 125

Klodyne Rodney 131

Kevin Millsip 137

Council of Canadians

Vancouver Westside Chapter

Hanson Lau 142



1 Vancouver, British Columbia

2 --- Upon commencing on Monday, June 22, 1998

3 at 1600/L'audience débute le lundi 22 juin 1998

4 à 0900

5 1 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon,

6 everyone, and welcome to this Town Hall consultation.

7 My name is Cindy Grauer and I am the Commissioner for

8 British Columbia and Yukon. With me is Commissioner

9 Andrée Wylie. Also seated here to my left are

10 commission staff, including hearing manager, Marguerite

11 Vogel, who is director for Western Canada of the CRTC

12 and based here in Vancouver, and our legal counsel for

13 today, John Keogh. I invite you to call upon either of

14 them with any questions you might have.

15 2 Before we begin, I would like to say

16 how pleased we are to be here in Vancouver to have the

17 opportunity to hear your views on content in

18 programming on Canadian television. I would also like

19 to thank every one of you for taking the time to

20 participate in this hearing. As you know, this public

21 consultation is part of a larger process which will

22 culminate in a formal public hearing in Hull at the end

23 of September. Your comments today will form part of

24 the public record and assist us in our deliberations.

25 It is very important to us to hear from a broad range




1 of interested Canadians and it is therefore very

2 gratifying that you have indicated an interest and made

3 the time to appear before us today.

4 3 We are in this Canadian television

5 policy review looking at how we can review our

6 television policies to better respond to the

7 restructuring taking place in the broadcasting

8 environment.

9 4 Some of the issues we hope to hear

10 your views on include but are no no way limited to the

11 following: How important is Canadian programming to

12 you? Do you agree that Canadian television should

13 reflect your views and values as Canadian citizens, and

14 what kinds of Canadian programming are of interest to

15 you?

16 5 We are here today to hear from you

17 and it appears that we have a very high turnout of

18 people who want to be heard. In the interest of

19 ensuring that we hear from everyone, I will ask that

20 you limit your remarks to 15 minutes and we will limit

21 our comments to questions of clarification. We want to

22 assure you that we are, notwithstanding these

23 limitations, very interested in hearing what you have

24 to say and getting your remarks on the public record

25 and keeping this process as informal as possible.




1 6 I would also like to take this

2 opportunity to remind everyone that we will accept

3 written comments until June 30th.

4 7 At this point I would like to ask

5 legal counsel to address the process we will be

6 following today.

7 8 MR. KEOGH: Thank you, Madam

8 Chairperson. Just a few procedural points I want to go

9 over. The secretary will call your name when it's time

10 for you to appear and if you're not at the table, if

11 you could come forward to the table to a microphone,

12 please. If you are at the table, when you're ready to

13 begin, if you could just press the black button and the

14 red light will go on. It's important that the

15 microphone be on because a transcript is being kept of

16 your representations, as the chairperson mentioned,

17 because it will form part of the official record of the

18 proceeding. If you have an interest in obtaining a

19 copy of the transcript, you can speak to the court

20 reporter at the back of the room.

21 9 Lastly, there are translation

22 services available, so if you have need for translation

23 services, just outside the entrance there is a fellow

24 at a desk who has devices which he can provide to you.

25 10 I think those are all my comments.




1 Thank you.

2 11 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. On the

3 subject of sitting hours, we will look to take a short

4 15-minute break around 5:30 and then again around 7:30.

5 We will sit this evening until everyone who would like

6 to speak has been heard.

7 12 Before I turn to the secretary to

8 call our first presenter, let me ask if there are any

9 preliminary matters to be addressed?

10 13 Thank you. I will now ask the

11 secretary to call the first presenter.

12 14 THE SECRETARY: Thank you, Madam

13 Chair. Our first presenter this evening is Shyla Dutt.


15 15 MS DUTT: Thank you very much. Thank

16 you for the opportunity to present here today. It's

17 been all around I think a little bit of short notice so

18 if I don't present some detailed figures in the

19 analysis, as you have asked in your public notice, you

20 will forgive us because we have only come to know about

21 this very recently.

22 16 I also would like to take a moment

23 and thank very much the CRTC staff, who were

24 exceptional on short notice to provide me with all the

25 background documents.




1 17 Having said that, my topic for today

2 or the aspect that I would like to cover is on

3 diversity. I would like to first talk about regional

4 diversity.

5 18 Having spent a lot of my life in

6 Ottawa and Toronto and having moved to Vancouver, I now

7 understand why Vancouverites wring their hands as to

8 Ottawa people not understanding what Vancouverites and

9 British Columbians are all upset about. When I turn on

10 the television news and try to get excited about

11 something that I heard on the news and say, oh, well, I

12 can rush down Young Street or Hyde Park or whatever and

13 go and visit this, I very often realize, well, I'm not

14 there on subway line; I'm here in Vancouver.

15 19 A lot of the frustration around news,

16 information programming, as well as some of the, if you

17 will, life styles and issues raised in drama and

18 entertainment programing very much revolve round

19 Ontario, particularly Toronto, and I know you have

20 heard this all before but it really is an incredibly

21 eye-opening experience when you live here as I have in

22 the past little while.

23 20 The other aspect of this not getting

24 reflected, and especially so in the news, is that it's

25 very often out of synch with what's happening here.




1 For one thing, the news has already been put to bed

2 before we get home from work and in fact most Ontario

3 and eastern folks are already in bed when we sit down

4 to watch the national news.

5 21 I don't know about other British

6 Columbians but I have certainly been amazed to see a

7 lot of folks here don't even tune into the national

8 news because they don't find it relevant. I'm still

9 addicted to it and haven't gotten over the habit of

10 watching it, which is why I know that I don't hear the

11 kind of things I would like to hear about.

12 22 I don't mean the kind of events

13 covered. Sometimes, yes, and even last night there was

14 a news item. There's always something every now and

15 then about something that happens here, but I'm talking

16 about the reflection of the kind of values, decisions,

17 priorities and, indeed, life styles that make British

18 Columbians very distinct and yet so far from the centre

19 where decisions are made.

20 23 Most of these policy hearings in

21 fact, as you know, take place in Ottawa. When I lived

22 there I was privileged in order to be able to reach

23 most of them, to be able to sit in and understand why

24 some of the decisions happen and what the structure of

25 the programming and the structure of the regulatory




1 system is, which is a prime reason why I'm here, having

2 worked as a consultant there.

3 24 The reason diversity in British

4 Columbia is also quite different in terms of its

5 multilingual/ multicultural composition, than from the

6 multicultural/ multilingual diversity in, say, Toronto,

7 it is dominated by two groups as opposed to many. Even

8 though the numbers are greater in Toronto or Ontario,

9 for instance, it's much more concentrated among two

10 groups in B.C. That alone has changed the dynamics of

11 their participation in British Columbian society. If

12 you look at the participation in socioeconomic and

13 political structure in B.C., you will see there are a

14 number of cabinet ministers, MLAs, in the legislature

15 of British Columbia and there is a very predominant

16 stature for these groups in the economy of B.C. that's

17 quite different from their participation in, let's say,

18 Toronto or Montreal. Hence, by the fact that B.C.

19 doesn't get reflected apart from its confluent

20 concerns, if you will, there is also this aspect of the

21 diversity within diversity that doesn't get reflected

22 as a result.

23 25 One of the issues around this is

24 ownership and increasingly ownership is getting

25 concentrated and the Commission has recently also in




1 its notice stated that it's no longer -- it's closed

2 the door to, if you will, at the moment anyway, to new

3 network applications. At this point that is very

4 disappointing because it means that there is no room

5 for a born in British Columbia type of network

6 application.

7 26 Now, I realize the Commission can't

8 force parties to come forward and apply for that but I

9 submit respectfully that the kind of framework in which

10 you call for applications, each of the decisions are

11 sort of building blocks towards that happening because

12 one can't really run until one learns how to walk, if

13 you will, and that type of disadvantage exists out here

14 and it's rather disappointing to hear that that door

15 will not be open.

16 27 So I would like to submit that

17 perhaps the Commission, in looking at ownership

18 transfer, as you have said that you will look at that

19 type of concept, would certainly try to look for that

20 type of relevancy, if you will, what I call regional

21 relevancy, both in programming and in ownership.

22 28 Now, as far as the diversity within

23 diversity goes, much of the requirements for meeting

24 the diversity requirements in the Broadcasting Act have

25 been sort of looked at as, quote/unquote, multilingual




1 programming or segregated programming for various

2 segments of the population whether it's multilingual or

3 other, religious groups, whatever.

4 29 I believe that there is an emerging

5 need and a more urgent need than serving those type of

6 needs, if you will, because of the nature of the milieu

7 into which, for instance, new immigrants come. There

8 is a critical mass here, especially in B.C., to which

9 they arrive and, therefore, their needs for

10 integration, if you will, or, rather, their route to

11 integration is a little bit of a -- mostly pretty slow

12 because when you have critical mass of numbers as well

13 as resources, the danger is that you can very well say

14 that we will set up a parallel system, and I do believe

15 we don't want to be in the business of building

16 solitude and yet there is a great danger of that

17 happening if this isn't taken into consideration.

18 30 Another issue is that of the youth,

19 the difference in the youth, the children of those

20 immigrants, as well as the youth, others that are

21 growing up here. Again, because of the critical mass,

22 they don't feel the necessity for integration, even

23 though that seems like a contradiction in terms, and

24 again numbers make a big difference. You have enough

25 people speaking your language or like yourself that you




1 can be with and socialize with that you don't feel the

2 need to integrate and, therefore, all of the systems

3 and, very importantly, the broadcasting, the media,

4 have a great role to ensure that that happens, that

5 they feel an ownership and participation in the,

6 quote/unquote, mainstream media, and by that I don't

7 mean just covering things they do. I mean having them

8 participate as producers, as assignment editors, as

9 reporters, as owners, so that they feel that this

10 belongs to them and there is no need to build a

11 parallel system.

12 31 So it's from the history of, I guess,

13 the governance of diversity, I felt that it has been to

14 give this group of people over here their media and we

15 have taken care of it. I believe that it is far more

16 important to integrate them.

17 32 And I have read the public notice,

18 for instance. I noticed there were many issues before

19 we got to the diversity issues. There were Canadian

20 content and whether the development -- the initiatives

21 or incentives that are offered to broadcasters and the

22 way they are regulated are under a lot of those things.

23 Reflection of the market, the audience in their

24 particular market segment and the carrying Canadian

25 content were dealt with separately and, with the best




1 of intentions, the Commission, as well as the

2 broadcasting system, has really looked at a special

3 place within it for multicultural, ethnic multilingual

4 programming and that's a very narrow segment of

5 diversity but it makes the point that we are not to be

6 looking at that -- not in a separate way but in an

7 integrated way.

8 33 There is a lot of need, therefore,

9 for what I call fused programming, fusion programming,

10 namely, programming that meets the needs of people who

11 in a way have a foot in one culture and yet in the

12 other culture, too, and you need to bring them together

13 and the only way to do that is they still have needs on

14 part of who they are, regionally as well as culturally,

15 and on the other hand being part of the Canadian

16 family.

17 34 The other way to get to that is

18 hybrid programming. I believe that partnerships need

19 to be encouraged between broadcasters coming from

20 distant strands and streams, as we know that some of

21 the newer, younger television licensees are doing, but

22 I think more of the established licensees need to do

23 that type of thing to build bridges between all

24 involved in Canadian society.

25 35 Looking at the regulatory mechanisms,




1 Madam Commissioner, that you asked us to address,

2 therefore, all of this boils down to access to

3 programming and equal treatment of different segments

4 of the audience.

5 36 For instance, what type of

6 remuneration is given to producers? You need to look

7 at not just the quantity but the quality of the

8 programming that they carry. Just as much as the

9 Commission is concerned about Canadian content

10 programming being good in quality and not just in

11 quantity, that principle needs to be applied within the

12 other types of programming.

13 37 So if diversity is an element of the

14 programming that's required by conventional

15 broadcasters, the quality of that is just as important

16 as the quantity. For instance, one producer told me

17 that the producer is offered $1,000 an hour to produce

18 programming when half an hour of a quality program she

19 produces costs 13,500. So there is a feeling that if

20 the programming is cheap, it's -- you know, as long as

21 we meet the quota for the hours, that's all we need to

22 do. So I think quality as well as quantity needs to

23 have an equal place within the broadcasting system.

24 38 The program production initiatives

25 need to be applied equally to people who apply for




1 ethnic broadcasting licenses as they are to

2 conventional licenses, and the encouragement that you

3 talked about -- I know we have very little time, so I'm

4 kind of rushing through all the issues I wanted to

5 raise.

6 39 The encouragement to produce

7 programming and export fits within the objectives and

8 goals which you have stated about the economic

9 constraints within which the broadcasting system

10 operates, and I don't see that as being incongruent.

11 It's not something you need to do as a favour to one

12 segment of the audience. I think there is a wealth of

13 resources there that can be applied to exporting as

14 long as it's supported and fostered in a suitable

15 regulatory framework.

16 40 Sharing experiences and resources

17 among broadcasters is another way to cut costs but

18 produce high-quality programming for export. So I

19 believe that saving diversity in an equal way as well

20 as promoting Canadian content don't necessarily have to

21 be incongruent.

22 41 Thank you very much.

23 42 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

24 43 Commissioner Wylie, do you have any

25 questions?





2 45 Ms Dutt, when you are concerned about

3 not enough regional diversity, do you mean there isn't

4 sufficient effort in including in the national news

5 things about British Columbia or the lack of local

6 regional programming in British Columbia by British

7 Columbia TV stations because they are not owned by

8 British Columbians?

9 46 MS DUTT: Both. When costs are cut

10 there are no resources allocated, with exceptions. I

11 don't want to be making a sweeping statement about

12 everyone, but when you cut costs -- as you know, when

13 there's a strike you get a lot more national

14 programming. So resources, as they filter down to the

15 local regional level, are harder and harder to come by,

16 and that's one issue, how much freedom there is at the

17 local level and regional level to look at things. And

18 I'm talking beyond that, to the kind of nuances in

19 daily living that you know by being a part of the

20 place, that you can't if you are sitting somewhere else

21 and developing the program.

22 47 I saw an item yesterday on the news

23 about someone packaging programming, radio programming,

24 and just selling it to different parts of the country

25 under different names and he would come on as a




1 commentator with one name in one part of the country

2 and shift programming off to another town with another

3 name, and he said soon he'll be producing that kind of

4 programming from his basement in Mississauga --

5 Oakland, rather, and shipping it across the country.

6 So you see what I mean is that the nuances of life in

7 British Columbia are hardly going to be captured that

8 way.


10 necessarily. I presume that one could get information

11 wherever it's necessary to have a broader view despite

12 the fact that it is produced by someone who doesn't

13 necessarily live here or own -- in French Canada, I

14 don't know if we do that in English Canada but in

15 French Canada we refer to mirror programming and window

16 programming, mirror programming being British

17 Columbians reflecting on to themselves what's happening

18 in British Columbia and window programming being an

19 input into other programming that is seen nationally or

20 in other parts of the country and provides a window on

21 to British Columbia. Do you have any suggestion as to

22 how this can be improved? You probably thought it was

23 fine when you lived in Toronto.

24 49 MS DUTT: Yes, exactly, and that's

25 exactly my point, was that I never understood -- and I




1 worked here as a consultant for broadcasters while I

2 lived in Ottawa and Toronto and actually have spent

3 over 10 years commuting back and forth, but I found

4 honestly that it's very different when you live. You

5 notice things that aren't there and you notice the

6 frustration when you watch something and, oh, that's

7 not relevant to me any more. It's very disappointing

8 and scary to look around and see people not tuned in to

9 our national news because there's nothing there that

10 captures that.

11 50 You know, there's a joke around here

12 that it's hard to come by a truly born and bred

13 Vancouverite, for instance, so most people who live in

14 the city migrated from Ontario for whatever reasons,

15 not only from but very many did, and there is a certain

16 reason why people have done that. There is a certain

17 choice and priority that's distinctly British

18 Columbian, I feel, and that once you appreciate, it may

19 appear to be not so difficult. After all, we watch

20 Hollywood movies and everybody enjoyed "The Titanic."

21 In fact, the Titanic -- Newfoundland is enjoying a

22 healthy boost to tourism. Having said that, though, I

23 do believe there is a difference.

24 51 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: And should not

25 be insurmountable?




1 52 MS DUTT: No.

2 53 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: You are talking

3 about information programming and maybe some

4 entertainment programming as well?

5 54 MS DUTT: Well, I talked about the

6 incentives program, that when decisions are handed down

7 or when applications are considered, as well, in

8 granting licenses, that those are the kind of things

9 that may be looked at and articulated as being

10 something that the Commission would find -- how shall

11 we say -- positive qualities in an applicant, that they

12 do take into consideration ownership participation,

13 independent production, production for export. All of

14 those things that build on regional and local and

15 diversity premises ought to be -- would be looked at

16 positively because right now it's isolated; Canadian

17 content, yes, but it's not spelled out.

18 55 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: Thank you, Ms

19 Dutt.

20 56 THE SECRETARY: Our next participant

21 this afternoon is Sheri Graydon, representing Media

22 Watch.


24 57 MS GRAYDON: Thank you very much for

25 the opportunity to be here. Just for those members of




1 the audience -- because the CRTC is very familiar with

2 our work -- Media Watch is a national women's

3 organization founded in 1981 as the result of a CRTC

4 study that looked at the representation and portrayal

5 of women and girls in Canadian broadcasting and found

6 it severely wanting. So our mandate since 1981 has

7 been to monitor, lobby and educate about the importance

8 of gender equity in Canadian broadcasting.

9 58 I'm going to make a few observations

10 followed by some recommendations this afternoon and we

11 will be submitting a more detailed submission in print

12 by the June 30th deadline.

13 59 We had the fortune to welcome to our

14 board just last week Catherine Murray of the School of

15 Communications at SFU and Lindsay Green, a Toronto area

16 communications consultant, both of whom I think will

17 have good perspectives to add to the remarks that I'm

18 going to make today.

19 60 As a result of our research and our

20 review of the research of others, Media Watch is very

21 clear that the Canadian broadcasting environment is

22 considerably less sexist and less violent than that of

23 the U.S.

24 61 In addition, our work with

25 organizations around the world -- we coordinated a




1 global media monitoring study a couple of years ago

2 involving more than 70 countries, and we frequently get

3 requests to do presentations at international forums

4 about the Canadian broadcasting environment from the

5 perspective of women's participation in broadcasting

6 here, and all of those experiences have really

7 reinforced for us the value of the CRTC and its

8 historical commitment to upholding the tenets of the

9 Canadian Broadcasting Act.

10 62 So I wanted to start out by saying

11 that and specifically to applaud the progress of

12 initiatives that the CRTC has undertaken over the years

13 and the Commission's willingness to implement measures

14 that in fact uphold the notion of airwaves as

15 constituting a public utility to be used for the good

16 of all citizens, men, women and children.

17 63 We are very familiar with and

18 recognize the pressure being brought to bear on the

19 CRTC by industry, players who are in some cases anxious

20 to follow the U.S. down the deregulation path, and we

21 are very strongly convinced that the level of

22 regulation that exists in this country is not only

23 eminently reasonable but in fact envied by others who,

24 while not living adjacent to the American broadcasting

25 system and production industries, are nevertheless also




1 suffering under threat of their domination. So I think

2 it's very important to acknowledge the role that

3 regulation in the CRTC has played to date in terms of

4 defining a unique space for Canadian culture.

5 64 We also want to comment specifically

6 on the work of the Canadian Broadcast Standards Council

7 in recent years in terms of the efforts that the CBSC

8 has made to reinforce and remind Canadian broadcasters

9 of their responsibilities regarding the sexual

10 stereotyping and violence guidelines. The "Power

11 Rangers" decision of a few years ago certainly

12 demonstrated that, as did the more recent CBSC rulings

13 around the Howard Stern show, regarding the two radio

14 stations airing that program in Toronto and Montreal.

15 65 However, we recognize that the CBSC's

16 mandate is essentially to protect the interests of its

17 members, the broadcasters, and we remain skeptical

18 about the broadcaster body's commitment to uphold the

19 sexual stereotyping guidelines which are so important

20 to us in radio or television if doing so means putting

21 a license of two of its members in jeopardy.

22 66 I really want to stress how seriously

23 Media Watch has observed and submitted to the CBSC on

24 this particular issue and how central we believe the

25 CRTC's role and the regulatory process has been to even




1 having the two decisions that have been taken so far.

2 In particular because the Stern show is about to make

3 its debut on Canadian television in September, we would

4 like to remind the CRTC of its ultimate responsibility

5 in ensuring that broadcasters do in fact adhere to the

6 hard-fought guidelines that inherently recognize

7 women's rights to be treated equitably, not to mention

8 with dignity, on the airwaves.

9 67 I'm sure you have read transcripts of

10 some of the material that has appeared on the Howard

11 Stern show. The notion of material that is so

12 abhorrent that newspapers across the country will not

13 print much of what is available on the airwaves every

14 day to children, to adults, to whoever, I think is

15 indicative of the seriousness of this particular issue.

16 68 The Howard Stern program indeed

17 provides the chilling demonstration of the need for and

18 the value of Canadian guidelines and we believe that

19 the CRTC has a duty to intervene if the CBSC does not

20 have the stomach to enforce the existing regulations.

21 I understand that they are currently reviewing tapes of

22 the show from, I gather, May and that they will be

23 releasing a decision soon, and I don't know for sure

24 but it seems likely to me that they will for a third

25 time find at least one of the two stations in




1 contravention of the guidelines. In our view, the

2 Howard Stern show is precisely the kind of program that

3 the condition of license requirement instituted in 1986

4 by the CRTC was designed to deal with.

5 69 The other factor -- and it ties into

6 the issues that I just raised -- is that a couple of

7 research studies conducted in the late 1980s determined

8 that the Commission in its license renewal hearings did

9 not typically require broadcasters to demonstrate in

10 any significant way how they were in fact attempting to

11 adhere to the guidelines to increase the representation

12 of women on the airwaves and to improve their portrayal

13 practices. We would very much like to encourage the

14 CRTC to, in ongoing and continuing and upcoming license

15 renewal hearings, to ensure that questions were asked,

16 that there was maybe a more rigorous process by which

17 broadcasters were required to demonstrate what in fact

18 they were doing to increase the representation and

19 improve the portrayal.

20 70 One of the arguments that is often

21 made against being more pro-active in terms of what

22 broadcasters are required to do is the contention that,

23 well, we get very few complaints and the complaint

24 system or the changes in the broadcasting system or the

25 condition of license has always been dependent on




1 consumer complaints. What we know at Media Watch from

2 the research that we have conducted is that very, very

3 few women complain -- men, too, for that matter -- but

4 their lack of complaints is not indicative of a level

5 of satisfaction.

6 71 So, for instance, in 1995, with the

7 assistance of the media lab at Simon Fraser University

8 and under the direction of Catherine Murray, we

9 conducted audience research and determined that 75

10 percent of Canadian women polled across this country

11 indicated that they were often or sometimes offended by

12 advertising and television portrayal of women. That's

13 a very high figure and in particular what was

14 compelling news to us was that although 75 percent were

15 often or sometimes offended, only 13 percent had ever

16 picked up the telephone to register a complaint and

17 only eight percent had actually ever written a letter

18 and, as you know, a letter is the only form of

19 complaint that is taken seriously and that is moved

20 forward. So I think it's really important to remember

21 those figures, to remember that the Canadian public

22 don't generally have the time to come out to forums

23 like this to register complaints despite the fact that

24 they may be indeed very disturbed by what they are

25 witnessing on television.




1 72 So just to summarize, a lack of

2 complaints is an unreliable indicator of viewer

3 satisfaction and, secondly, groups like Media Watch,

4 which are attempting to engage and reflect Canadian

5 concerns about portrayal issues need to be supported in

6 our attempts to do that.

7 1630

8 73 I have four recommendations at this

9 point and, as I say, in our written submission there

10 may be additional recommendations but specifically I

11 want to address myself, one, to content quotas because

12 I know that that's an issue of interest to the

13 Commission.

14 74 It is our belief that Canadian

15 content quotas have supported the development of

16 Canadian cultural industries in a significant way and

17 that the kinder, gentler image of women -- and men, for

18 that matter -- that characterizes Canadian broadcasting

19 and distinguishes it from much of the American fare is

20 indebted to that support, the Canadian content quotas.

21 Therefore, we would ask that if, in response to

22 industry submissions, the CRTC decides to revisit the

23 manner in which content quotas are determined, that the

24 Commission recognize, while they do that, that all

25 Canadians have a stake in the continued improvement of




1 gender portrayal practices and that, whatever else it

2 does, it must continue to promote the funding and

3 development of Canadian talent and programming.

4 75 Regardless of how content quotas are

5 administered, I think it's very clear to all of us who

6 are concerned about the distinctive Canadian culture

7 that that support continue, and I notice on the list

8 here that there are people here arguing on behalf of

9 the support of the CBC, which has been, I think,

10 devastated by cuts, and I would add my voice to that.

11 Certainly CBC has been a leader in its portrayal and

12 representation of women and the diversity of its

13 programming.

14 76 Secondly, on a recommendations list

15 regarding the guidelines, the sexual stereotyping

16 guidelines, we strongly urge the CRTC to maintain those

17 guidelines and the violence ones and, as I mentioned,

18 to become more assertive in requiring broadcasters to

19 demonstrate at their license renewal hearings their

20 active adherence to the established guidelines and

21 their attempt to improve portrayal and representation

22 practices.

23 77 Number 3, on the condition of license

24 issue, the fact that adherence to the sexual

25 stereotyping guidelines was initially introduced as a




1 condition of license reflected the recognition that

2 some measures were necessary to conteract the

3 exigencies of the commercial marketplace in which shock

4 strategies -- for instance, of the nature of the Howard

5 Stern program -- would sometimes be used as a point of

6 differentiation. It's in the best interests of the

7 Canadian public that the CRTC continue to fulfill its

8 duty as a regulator and enforce the guidelines if and

9 when the industry fails to do so, even if this means

10 revoking the license of one or more broadcasters.

11 78 Finally, I would like to address

12 myself to intervenor costs. Broadcasters do not

13 effectively monitor themselves and I think, as we have

14 already demonstrated, the number of consumer complaints

15 received by broadcasters and by the CRTC is an

16 extremely unreliable indicator of listener and viewer

17 satisfaction. Therefore, we know people will watch

18 programs despite the fact that the commercials insult

19 them or the fact that one or more of the depictions on

20 the show, they might find offensive.

21 79 Therefore, organizations such as

22 Media Watch, which are, one, familiar with the codes

23 and, two, undertake to monitor both public sentiment as

24 well as broadcasting product, should be supported

25 financially so that we can continue to intervene in an




1 informed way, and calculation of expenditures needs to

2 include research as well as presentation costs.

3 80 As with the previous presenter, we

4 were informed about this process not too long ago. We

5 would have ideally liked to have undertaken at least a

6 small research project to give you more specifics

7 around our issues with regards to portrayal practices

8 and simply don't have the resources even if we had had

9 the time at this point to give you more concrete data.

10 81 That's all of the comments I have at

11 this point.

12 82 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms

13 Graydon. I actually don't have any questions. We'll

14 look forward to getting your submission.

15 83 Commissioner Wylie?

16 84 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: No questions.

17 85 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

18 86 THE SECRETARY: Our next presenter

19 this afternoon is Dorothy Sorley.


21 87 MS SORLEY: I want to speak on behalf

22 of licensed radio stations for Christian broadcasting.

23 There's been a great lack of it and there seems to be a

24 great feeling against it in Canada. So I am presenting

25 these petitions.




1 88 I believe that a positive and active

2 religious faith makes a significant difference in the

3 quality and productivity of an individual's life.

4 89 Number 2, I believe that a family

5 with a committed religious faith brings about a good,

6 solid influence upon the upcoming generation.

7 90 Number 3, I believe that a caring,

8 religious community makes an incredible impact on

9 Canadian society.

10 91 Therefore, I support the

11 implementation of 24-hour religious broadcasting to be

12 freely available for all citizens of Canada and I ask

13 that there be freedom in the development of Christian

14 single faith radio and television broadcasting in

15 Canada.

16 92 Thank you.

17 93 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms

18 Sorley. We have no questions. Thank you very much.

19 94 THE SECRETARY: Our next presenter is

20 Keith Matthews.

21 95 We'll recall Mr. Matthews later.

22 96 Darren Lowe.

23 97 Then I would like to ask Stan Fox to

24 make his presentation, please, representing West Coast

25 Media Society.





2 98 MR. FOX: Good afternoon and thank

3 you for this opportunity to present to you.

4 99 The West Coast Media Society is a

5 group of consumers in the lower part of Vancouver

6 Island. It has been active for the last 10 years,

7 trying to improve the broadcasting situation in that

8 area, and today we want to comment on the quantity and

9 quality of local television and cable production in the

10 Victoria area. Our report is in two parts and refers

11 to CHEK TV and the Shaw Community Cable channel.

12 100 We have entitled the first part "This

13 Hour Has 21 Minutes." We used this title because,

14 according to our count, that is the usual amount of

15 local original production we receive from CHEK TV on a

16 typical day of broadcasting during the local news hour,

17 consisting of the early news at 5:00 p.m. and the major

18 local news broadcast at 5:30 to 6:00. At 6:00 p.m. we

19 are treated to the Vancouver news hour originating at

20 the sister station of CHEK, CHAN TV or BCTV.

21 101 Now, we wonder how the Vancouver

22 people -- and there's a lot present here -- would feel

23 if their six o'clock news came from Victoria, with

24 Victoria traffic, Victoria sports, Victoria weather,

25 and they received no local programming in prime time




1 any day of the week, and we are defining prime time

2 very loosely, from 6:00 p.m. to midnight. That's the

3 situation on Vancouver Island.

4 102 In Victoria the rest of CHEK's local

5 programming consists of "CHEK at Noon", a news magazine

6 type hour-long program followed by an hour of "Tyabji",

7 a public affairs talk show, which is the only place on

8 the local schedule that allows discussion of serious

9 public issues for longer than a few minutes.

10 103 Now, there's a "Wake Up" show

11 starting at 5:30 a.m. and originating from Burnaby,

12 B.C. which CHEK claims as its own, but the time period

13 and the almost non-existent Victoria audience rules it

14 out of serious consideration. I don't know if anyone

15 has ever seen that show.

16 104 On weekends they make an effort to

17 recognize the rest of Vancouver Island -- this is CHEK

18 -- with the 30-minute "Nanaimo Report". The rest of

19 CHEK's local content is made up of repeats of older

20 low-budget programs like "Body Moves", a dozen gymnasts

21 exercising outdoors, and "Pets and People", which is

22 only eight years old.

23 105 In case you are wondering how we

24 arrived at our numbers, I should explain we simply

25 watched the channel with a stop watch and clocked the




1 length of those items that were genuinely locally

2 produced on a given news hour and averaged the results.

3 Now, we subtracted the repeats that are used to fill up

4 the time. CHEK has adopted the clever strategy of

5 calling the first half hour, from 5:00 to 5:30, a

6 preview of the news at 5:30 during which shorter

7 versions of local items are shown, the same items that

8 are seen a half hour later on the 5:30 news. Once in a

9 while an item appears in the preview show that does not

10 repeat but most of the rest of the early time period is

11 taken up with material pulled in from other networks

12 and news feeds. There's no arts reporter, no business

13 reporter. The business report consists of four slides

14 with music.

15 106 Now, this ridiculous situation has a

16 basis in an earlier decision by the Commission in which

17 you apparently ignored your regulations that prohibited

18 one owner from having two television broadcasting

19 stations in the same commercial market area and you

20 allowed WIC to own both CHAN and CHEK. From a

21 commercial point of view, Vancouver and Victoria can be

22 considered a single market even though from a program

23 point of view they are very different. What we have in

24 Victoria is a puppet station controlled by the owners

25 of a Vancouver station.




1 107 Now, at the same time we want to make

2 it clear that our criticisms are directed at the

3 management of CHEK, not the able and very overworked

4 staff who do the best they can with the limited

5 resources they are given.

6 108 We are aware that the Commission has

7 noted previous deficiencies in the performance of CHEK.

8 In Decision 95-99 you stated:

9 109 "This one-year license term

10 reflects the Commission's

11 serious concerns regarding the

12 practices followed by the

13 licensee in the accounting of

14 its Canadian programing

15 expenditures."

16 110 Now, this problem was corrected by

17 CHEK, we will admit, but you did, in Decision 96-274,

18 remind CHEK that, quote:

19 111 "Television licensees have a

20 special responsibility to serve

21 the public within the particular

22 geographic areas they are

23 licensed to serve."

24 112 You continued:

25 113 "In this regard, the Commission




1 expects the licensee to adhere

2 to the commitment in its renewal

3 to broadcast, at a minimum, an

4 average of 13 hours and 20

5 minutes per week of original

6 local news."

7 114 Now, the West Coast Media Society and

8 the Commission, we just have very different definitions

9 of "original local news."

10 115 We believe that Victoria deserves

11 better. The Baton station in Vancouver has shown that

12 a local station can produce a variety of programs, not

13 just news, and even contribute to a national network.

14 We feel that a Victoria station should have

15 investigative reporting, good coverage of its vibrant

16 creative cultural scene, an opportunity to see the work

17 of our independent producers and contribute to national

18 television in a meaningful way. Also, CHEK should be

19 able to present some legal programming in prime time,

20 when most people are watching.

21 116 I ask you: Why was Izzy Asper of the

22 Global Network able to acquire so many thousands of

23 supportive signatures from local individuals and groups

24 when he applied for a license for a TV broadcasting

25 station on Vancouver Island? Could it be that the




1 citizens over where we come from are fed up with the

2 minimal service we have been receiving? I suggest you

3 check it out, please.

4 117 Now, the second part of our

5 presentation is entitled "This Day Has 20 Minutes," and

6 we are talking about Shaw Cable. We used this title

7 because that's the commitment to local programming that

8 Shaw Cable plans to provide in its revised service to

9 be introduced this fall in Victoria. The community

10 channel originally mandated by the Commission is to be

11 altered beyond recognition.

12 118 This service has been the alternative

13 to CHEK's half-hearted commitment to the people of

14 Victoria. It was possible to see in-depth coverage of

15 local subjects that, while they are sometimes appealing

16 to a niche audience, were of extreme value to our

17 community. Local musicians were given a platform to

18 display their talents, local political issues were

19 discussed in a time frame that allowed all aspects of a

20 subject to be explored, local sports were covered by

21 mobiles.

22 119 A lot of this will end in the fall,

23 perhaps all of it, if Shaw has its way. Instead of a

24 schedule which accommodates programs of a normal length

25 on a variety of topics, we are to be presented with one




1 20 to 30-minute endless loop of very short items

2 produced under the control of Shaw and shown on a split

3 screen, the better to accommodate banners and

4 advertising calculated to boost Shaw's fortunes.

5 120 This has already happened in Calgary.

6 Imagine a television channel with only one little

7 program, a marketer's a dream.

8 121 This move by Shaw is a great

9 disservice to the Victoria community and we urge you to

10 take steps to discourage it. Shaw claims they are

11 acting as a result of public wishes, quoting a

12 mysterious survey. Our sounding of local opinion has

13 found no one who wants this service and a good many

14 citizens who feel outraged that this major change in

15 our community channel is being forced on us without any

16 public debate.

17 122 We ask the Commission: How can you

18 allow such a basic part of the Canadian broadcasting

19 system to be abandoned? We remind you that Shaw

20 operates as a controlled cable monopoly as a

21 consequence of your regulations. We cannot choose

22 another cable service that provides a community

23 channel. It makes no difference to us if Shaw has been

24 required to contribute to Canadian production through

25 national production funds or might face competition in




1 the future from satellite service. This means mothing

2 to us in Victoria. We want the local service we have

3 been using to continue.

4 123 You bear the responsibility of giving

5 Shaw the choice of reducing community service and you

6 did it, I'm afraid, without consulting the citizens

7 affected. It is perfectly possible for Shaw to be

8 required to make the choice that Rogers did in

9 Vancouver and continue to be a responsible corporate

10 citizen in Victoria by providing a needed alternative

11 to commercial television.

12 124 We remind you that, while we are not

13 shareholders in these companies, we are stakeholders in

14 the quality of our broadcasting system and we ask you

15 to join us in taking a look at the local service in

16 Victoria and seeing something should be done.

17 125 Thank you. That's the formal

18 presentation.

19 126 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very

20 much. You have come a long way over to make your

21 presentation and we very much appreciate it. I don't

22 have a lot of questions because you were very clear.

23 Can you sum up what it is you would like us to do with

24 respect to service in Victoria, with respect to

25 priorities?




1 127 MR. FOX: Well, I think there's going

2 to be in the future certain -- these stations will have

3 to renew their licenses. I'm sure that CHEK does.

4 Shaw has to at some point relate to you, and I rely on

5 your skills to decide how you can bring pressure on

6 Shaw. Unfortunately, I believe the decision was

7 made -- the wrong decision, in my view or our view, was

8 made in the past already, when they were given this

9 choice, so I mean that has to be somehow rescinded and

10 improved.

11 128 So I'm leaving it to the Commission

12 to try and work on this. We would be happy to discuss

13 it with you in even more detail if you wish.

14 129 THE CHAIRPERSON: I'm assuming you

15 have made your views known to Shaw.

16 130 MR. FOX: We have written to Shaw and

17 they have not answered. We have written to CHEK and we

18 got a letter back written in pure bafflegab but that's

19 it. Shaw has not responded and Shaw will not respond

20 to anyone at this point apparently about the exact

21 details of what they are doing, so we can only assume

22 the worst - Calgary.

23 131 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very

24 much. Again, I appreciate you taking the time to come

25 all this way.




1 132 THE SECRETARY: Our next participant

2 this afternoon is Jeff Bear.


4 133 MR. BEAR: My name is Jeff Bear. I'm

5 a member of the Maliseet Nation, situated at

6 Woolostogwik- Negootkoog, which English speakers will

7 know as the Indian Point, situated at the confluence of

8 the Tobique and St. John rivers in northeast New

9 Brunswick, but I live here now. I'm here today to

10 represent my own views as an independent aboriginal

11 story teller and to share some of my concerns and views

12 about the future of Canadian programming.

13 134 I have been involved in aboriginal

14 communications for the past 20 years. In that time I

15 have worked at four different aboriginal organizations,

16 one national one, and all of them funded by government

17 to produce newspapers, radio stations and television

18 programs. I have worked on the development of

19 Television Northern Canada, which I will touch on in a

20 moment, and I have worked on changes to the

21 Broadcasting Act in the mid-'80s that brought us into

22 Canadian programming in a formal way. I worked in

23 mainstream broadcasting with the CBC English program, a

24 network program called "The Journal", and now I work

25 here in Vancouver for a show called "First Story",




1 which I produce and write.

2 135 During the past five years I have

3 been an independent television producer situated here

4 on the west coast. During my career I have produced

5 documentaries and I have told stories that deal almost

6 exclusively with aboriginal realities. It's my

7 vocation, it's my privilege and it's my predilection,

8 if you will, to have been gifted as one of my nation's

9 story tellers. As such, I have been called native

10 journalist, native communicator, reporter and

11 ultimately, by some of our high-profile First Nations'

12 leadership, turncoat. I'll take whatever I'm called.

13 No one knows my real Maliseet name anyway, except for

14 my family members.

15 136 Here I'll take a departure from this

16 formal note and try to talk to you in the oral

17 tradition, using some notes.

18 137 Television Northern Canada is a

19 project you will be dealing with in the near future and

20 it's a project that has raised concerns for many of us

21 independent aboriginal producers and story tellers.

22 The concerns are primarily one of representation and

23 one of corporate structure because the organization

24 itself has not included us in its development, it's not

25 included us in its corporate structure and it's not




1 including us now in the evolution of its national

2 network proposal.

3 138 The programming decisions that will

4 be made in a future undertaking of a national

5 aboriginal television network should include those of

6 us who have made our homes in the cities south of the

7 fictitious line that divides north and south in Canada.

8 For the purposes of independent producers, I think that

9 they need to have access to such a television network

10 should it come about so that our programs can be seen

11 and enjoyed by the rest of Canada.

12 139 Public funding for independent

13 productions has been different for us. We haven't made

14 great inroads to Canadian programming in the past up

15 until the recent five to six years, say, and the

16 reasons for that are that many of us haven't had the

17 break. Many of us haven't found stations or

18 broadcasters that would put their faith to bring our

19 stories to air. So they have created special programs

20 and program funding within government that has helped

21 to move that along, and one of those areas is the

22 Telefilm, what they call the aboriginal production

23 fund.

24 140 In their first year they didn't spend

25 any money because they couldn't find a program that




1 anyone would give a license to that was attached with

2 licensing dollars, and the main stumbling block with

3 that was that you were supposed to have produced a

4 program in an aboriginal language, which is well and

5 good, but mainstream broadcasters won't program an

6 aboriginal language show because you need subtitles and

7 it's the general view that these programs will not be

8 watched by most Canadian viewers. So the Telefilm fund

9 has been kicking around from one conference to another.

10 Different policies have been attached to it.

11 141 One film recently was released with

12 Cree, totally Cree narration on the soundtrack. The

13 person that made the film can't speak a word of Cree.

14 The writer, the director, any of the people that were

15 on the creative team didn't speak a word of Cree. So

16 they were using this public fund essentially to get

17 their production done and sometimes will take all kinds

18 of different shortcuts just to get the story done, I'm

19 told, but I fear that in the licensing of Television

20 Northern Canada this may be compromised.

21 142 I will at some point in the near

22 future come and make a formal presentation on these

23 issues. I merely wanted to inform you today that there

24 are a few of us who have intentions to do this and,

25 since this is a forum to discuss the future of Canadian




1 programming, I thought it was appropriate to make those


3 143 The other point I wanted to make is

4 what I mentioned earlier, is that the urban reality is

5 really important to us and here in Vancouver for the

6 past year we have had the privilege of bringing stories

7 to our audience that are told from a First Nations

8 perspective, produced by First Nations people and seen

9 for the most part by First Nations people. We have a

10 large aboriginal following here although if you check

11 the DBM's, you will never find that. I think there's

12 still a little bit of monocultural aspect to these kind

13 of studies. I don't think they call aboriginal homes

14 very often to find what their viewing patterns are

15 like. That's one small problem. I think it's just

16 merely an obstacle, though, that we can overcome in the

17 future.

18 144 That show I'm describing is called

19 "First Story" and it's aired on the local VTV station

20 that this gentleman over here mentioned earlier, and

21 our stories have coined a phrase called "the urban

22 rez". It's now a term that many aboriginal people in

23 the city are using, and it's made significant inroads

24 to our community in a way that, you know, people walk

25 up to me on the street, people walk up to me when I'm




1 at Indian meetings, which I have a habit to go and hang

2 out at, and there is a recognition factor. They don't

3 even introduce themselves to me. I don't know these

4 people like on a first-name basis. They are just

5 coming in to say, "You're doing a great job. You know,

6 we're really, really proud of you, to see what you're

7 doing on the air."

8 145 And for the future of the aboriginal

9 people I think that kind of reflection has to become

10 apparent in all parts of Canadian programming. I think

11 to a small degree our public broadcaster has achieved

12 much in that direction but they haven't even really

13 wanted to do a news and current affairs show that was

14 produced by aboriginal people, and there are reasons

15 for that and I think principal among those reasons is

16 that they haven't given us the trust for the same

17 reasons I mentioned earlier, why aboriginal producers

18 couldn't get their foot in the door.

19 146 They recently produced four pilot

20 programs called "All My Relations", and it was a good

21 job but it was too little, too late, and there's no

22 commitment for them to go ahead. On the other hand,

23 "First Story" is going to be renewed for another season

24 and we will be taking the show to parts beyond

25 Vancouver.




1 147 So I think that this kind of show and

2 this kind of experience can bring something not just to

3 the Television northern Canada project I mentioned

4 earlier but something to Canadian programmers and

5 mainstream programmers.

6 148 How is this going to impact upon your

7 goals? Well, I'm not really certain on that. I have

8 only looked at this issue for the past several weeks

9 but I noticed in your literature you mentioned one of

10 the policies of the CRTC is to reflect the

11 multicultural, multiracial nature of Canadian society,

12 including the special place of aboriginal peoples

13 within that society. Well, that just isn't done

14 enough. We see too many stories about suicide. You

15 don't have a mainstream television camera come to the

16 scene unless somebody has sniffed glue or somebody has

17 hung themselves. That has to stop.

18 149 I don't know how you can incorporate

19 this into your programming policies but I think it's

20 something that should be stated in the future of

21 Canadian programming, that our true stories are brought

22 out, because there's hundreds out there.

23 150 When I took on this task to produce

24 "First Story" for Baton, one of the people there asked

25 me, "Where are you going to come up with 26 shows?" And




1 I had kind of a chuckle because there's a hundred

2 stories or more sitting in my back pocket that I would

3 love to share with viewers, and we have been able to do

4 that and we are going to continue to do that.

5 151 The other part that I thought was

6 relevant was: What is the appropriate contribution of

7 the independent production sector to the evolution of

8 the broadcasting system and what is that sector's role

9 in achieving public policies?

10 152 I think we have to be involved. We

11 have to tell people what struggles we must face just to

12 get to where we are today and, in a similar

13 perspective -- and again back to Television Northern

14 Canada, that's the only way we can get to represent our

15 views south of the Hamelin line or the invisible

16 barrier that divides north and south.

17 153 That's all I want to say.

18 154 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: Thank you, Mr.

19 Bear. I assume that we will be hearing further from

20 you when the TVNC application is heard by the

21 Commission.

22 155 MR. BEAR: That's a safe assumption

23 to make, Madam Commissioner.

24 156 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: And we look

25 forward to that. Thank you very much.




1 157 THE SECRETARY: Our next participant

2 this afternoon is Sid Tan.

3 1700


5 158 MR. TAN: Hello. Thank you for this

6 opportunity to address the Commission. I say this with

7 a certain amount of heart-felt feeling because I know

8 that in many countries around the word environmental

9 and human rights activists would not have this

10 opportunity, particularly to address an issue which is

11 so far reaching as media and the way that media shapes

12 our economy and the way that media shapes our culture

13 and our values. So it is with a great deal of

14 heart-felt thanks that the Commission is here and I

15 appreciate this opportunity.

16 159 What I have to say to the Commission

17 and perhaps in turn to the federal government may not

18 be very pleasant but let me first put it into context

19 as what I would consider a community activist. I'm

20 here as a citizen but, as a citizen, I have spent much

21 time working to improve what I would consider this

22 country, of trying to participate, and to that end, in

23 a completely volunteer situation I have been a founding

24 director of the Asian Canadian Writers Workshop, I have

25 been a founding director of the Community Media




1 Education Society, I'm a director of the British

2 Columbia Environmental Network Education Foundation, a

3 director of the Environmental Foundation of British

4 Columbia, I co-chair the Sierra Club Lower Mainland

5 Group in Vancouver, in the Lower Mainland, which

6 started Greenpeace, and I'm a director of the Sierra

7 Club of British Columbia. I'm also a founding member

8 of ICTV, Independent Community Television Co-operative,

9 the Vancouver Association of Chinese Canadians and also

10 the Ogoni Solidarity Network.

11 160 I'm very concerned about issues of

12 the environment, human rights and progressive activism

13 and I'm concerned because I believe one of the major

14 voices that we have had in this country, community

15 television, is under assault.

16 161 Over the past year I have asked the

17 CRTC to declare their support of community television.

18 In 1991 the Commission acknowledges the admirable

19 degree of commitment and dedication of programming

20 staff and volunteers. The Commission continued to

21 state:

22 162 "The role of community channels

23 should be primarily of a public

24 service nature, facilitating

25 self-expression through free and




1 open access by members of the

2 community."

3 163 This is in 1991. Yet last year the

4 Commission considers, quote:

5 164 "It would be neither beneficial

6 nor practical to require all

7 terrestrial distributors to

8 provide and fund a community

9 channel and that contributions

10 by distribution undertakings be

11 directed to a single

12 independently administered

13 production fund, namely, the

14 Canadian Television and Cable

15 Production Fund."

16 165 Of course community television

17 producers cannot access this fund. What has happened

18 between 1991 and 1997? Clearly community television

19 now exists at the favour of media corporations. Cable

20 companies now control the very existence of community

21 television because they control the production

22 facilities and the channels in which it's distributed.

23 How is it the federal government, through the CRTC, is

24 able to address the concerns of entertainment and media

25 conglomerates yet provides no legislative or regulatory




1 framework for community television? Does the "C" in

2 CRTC stand for "corporate" or "Canadian"? The current

3 state of community television leads me to believe the

4 former.

5 166 The contribution of community access

6 television to community and nation building is

7 self-evident and the CRTC has recognized it as such.

8 It is time for the CRTC to address the lack of

9 legislative and regulatory framework for community

10 television. The CRTC must clarify the ground rules for

11 community input and determine adequate funding

12 arrangements for community media.

13 167 I hope I need not remind the

14 Commissioners that community television is one hundred

15 percent Canadian content and production and primarily

16 with volunteers. Community television prior to the

17 1997 decision was people in their communities caring

18 enough to weave, strengthen and show off the Canadian

19 fabric. For many volunteers it is the expression of

20 their love and vision of Canada.

21 168 Unfortunately, the Commission's

22 concern with competition, convergence and technology,

23 though laudable, has failed to address the needs of

24 communities. I do not understand why satellite signal

25 providers and telephone companies who ventured into the




1 television business are exempted from Canadian

2 television distribution to the communities from whence

3 they derive their revenues. Perhaps it's time for

4 community television to be available on the public

5 airwaves, eliminating the need for citizens to

6 subscribe to a corporate service to access

7 volunteer-produced programs about their community.

8 169 This is ironic in the extreme. It is

9 time for community needs to take precedence over

10 corporate greed, particularly when community television

11 becomes part of the marketing of that corporate

12 service.

13 170 The CRTC has allowed, whether

14 consciously or unconsciously, community television to

15 be regulated by market and commercial values. There is

16 no need to discuss whether market and commercial values

17 are the best regulators of what is in the public

18 interest.

19 171 An informed public is the foundation

20 of democracy. Can we expect media corporations to

21 adequately inform citizens about media issues? What

22 about the issues that can impact on the revenue of

23 advertisers; will we see these issues brought forward

24 for public debate in the mainstream media? Keep in

25 mind that what is called mainstream media is privately




1 owned media. How can the public interest be

2 represented adequately by corporations that are market

3 and commercial driven?

4 172 This underscores the need for a

5 strong and vibrant public and community broadcasting

6 system.

7 173 I envy your task. With continual

8 budget cuts to the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation,

9 the CRTC can mandate the development of community

10 television systems to balance regional and national

11 views. While corporate media providers can cull

12 markets, the CRTC can ensure that communities have the

13 opportunity for access and expression through community

14 media.

15 174 The CRTC could be well served by a

16 public review of community television policy and

17 funding. The CRTC can begin a process to determine

18 community media needs for the next millennium. I know

19 the government must provide the legislative framework

20 but the CRTC can exercise its considerable influence to

21 send the signal to the public that it is diligent in

22 the balance of interest among consumers, the industries

23 and the community and public.

24 175 I believe the volunteers and friends

25 of community television would applaud such a move. I




1 suggest this process could begin with a regulatory

2 framework for community television that could be a

3 template for community media in general. It is time to

4 study and debate community media that will strengthen

5 our communities and nations.

6 176 I ask the Commission to accept this

7 challenge. Canadians would be inspired by such

8 leadership. I know that I would.

9 177 Thank you.

10 --- Applause/Applaudissements

11 178 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very

12 much, Mr. Tan. We do appreciate you coming here today

13 and your comments are all part of the public record. I

14 think you were very clear. I don't have any questions

15 of clarification. I'll see if my colleague has.


17 obviously you don't agree with the policy that was

18 hammered very recently on the choice that distributors

19 can make about whether they support financially a

20 community channel or sums are given to a production

21 fund for the production of Canadian programming, but

22 the regulations are quite recent although the

23 Commission has said that it would review them, I think

24 within a period of two years. So that will give the

25 Commission some time to monitor how distributors use




1 that flexibility to respond to various communities'

2 pressure. I hope that your views are made known to the

3 distributors as to your desire for a continued

4 community channel and it's important that communities

5 monitor and take note of what's happening and we will

6 have an opportunity to review the situation again but

7 it is a policy that was canvassed quite extensively

8 when the Commission recast its distribution

9 regulations.

10 180 I hear you, that in your view it's

11 not working to your liking because there appears to be

12 less community programming opportunity. So keep

13 monitoring, keep talking to your distributor and we

14 will hear from people like you when we do the review.

15 181 Thank you, Mr. Tan.

16 182 MR. TAN: If I may, I would just like

17 to draw to the Commission's attention that there's no

18 real definition of community television. That is,

19 community television in reality does not exist unless

20 Rogers wants to have a community television channel,

21 and I would ask the Commission to actually redress

22 this. There is a problem here simply because there is

23 no legislative undertaking. What we talk about in

24 community television in reality does not exist at this

25 moment. It only exists because a corporation chooses




1 to run a community channel and their definition of

2 community television, believe me, differs very much

3 from mine, my feeling of what the spirit of community

4 television should be.

5 183 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: Thank you.

6 184 THE SECRETARY: Our next presenter

7 this afternoon is Faye Wightman, representing B.C.

8 Children's Hospital Foundation.


10 185 MS WIGHTMAN: Thank you. My name is

11 Faye Wightman. I'm president of B.C. Children's

12 Hospital Foundation and I'm here to tell you about the

13 absolutely essential role that Global Television in

14 Vancouver plays, both in terms of generating awareness

15 and helping us to raise funds for the hospital.

16 186 Before you can understand the

17 terrific support that Global gives us and the impact

18 that they have, I think it's important to know very

19 briefly something about Children's Hospital.

20 187 We are located at Oak and 28th Avenue

21 in Vancouver but the hospital serves the whole

22 province. We see children from birth to age 16 from

23 every corner of the province. Last year we saw over

24 139,000 patient visits from more than 200 communities

25 throughout the province. We provide the highest level




1 of care for sick and injured children, from treatment

2 of injuries from playground accidents right up to bone

3 marrow transplants and open-heart procedures.

4 188 The Children's Hospital Foundation is

5 the fund raising arm for the hospital. Each year we

6 raise approximately $15 million to help pay for needed

7 capital, equipment, research, patient care programs and

8 education and, as most people across Canada know, as

9 government budgets tighten and health care funding

10 becomes even more precarious, the role of hospital

11 foundations becomes even more important in order to

12 keep funding at world class levels to keep our

13 hospitals functioning at that level.

14 189 Within our own sector, the role of

15 fund raising, increasing competition among other

16 deserving non-profits makes our job even more

17 difficult. This is where Global TV Vancouver comes in.

18 I am absolutely convinced that we couldn't do what we

19 do and raise the kind of funds that we are raising and

20 the awareness of the role of Children's Hospital

21 without the support of our friends at the station.

22 190 Global Television has been at our

23 side for the past 11 years. We had our first telethon

24 in 1988, when the station was known as CKVU -- that was

25 even before it was called UTV -- and it's been our




1 telethon home every since.

2 191 The telethon is an enormous

3 undertaking. It provides a focus for our volunteers

4 and donors, who raise funds for the hospital under the

5 umbrella of the show. It has always been our single

6 largest fund raiser and today it has raised more than

7 $43 million for the hospital.

8 192 In television production terms, as

9 far as I understand, it's a huge project to put on 14

10 hours of live programming. It requires all of the

11 resources of a TV program to come together for a hectic

12 weekend. Global does it enthusiastically and

13 seamlessly. Everybody at the station gets involved,

14 from the security personnel to the station's president,

15 Jim Rusnak, and many of Global's staff volunteer their

16 time to help out with the telethon.

17 193 Every year Global presents its own

18 donation on the show, raised through a variety of

19 employee fund raisers throughout the year. This year

20 the station presented a $25,000 cheque as an outright

21 donation to the hospital.

22 194 As welcome and as needed as Global's

23 annual gift is, however, its importance is far

24 outweighed by the station's annual gift of air time.

25 Every year the station donates commercial space worth




1 hundreds of thousands of dollars to air our PSA's, and

2 when they air them they air them in the station's best

3 prime time vehicles, "Entertainment Tonight", "The

4 Simpsons", "X Files". This year the station made space

5 for us on the hottest show of the year. Three of our

6 PSA's ran on the last episode of "Seinfeld". We were

7 even told that, after the show ran, that when it came

8 time to schedule the commercials the Children's

9 Hospital PSA's were slotted in first with paying

10 advertisers then placed around them.

11 195 I don't want to leave you with the

12 impression that Global's support only extends to our

13 telethon because they are our official TV voice and

14 benefactor throughout the whole year.

15 196 Another very busy time for us is in

16 the holiday season, with a variety of family fund

17 raising events, and the station supports them all

18 through "Town Calendar" listings and "City Watch"

19 segments.

20 197 More often than not our events are

21 hosted by Global on-air personalities. The station's

22 weatherman, Mark Driesschen, is one of the hosts of the

23 telethon, the only host to be on-air live for all 14

24 hours. Russ Froese is our MC and host for our Child

25 Run, which is a run for families for 3,500 people, and




1 all of the "Sports Page" people have been tapped on

2 many of our fund raising golf tournaments and events.

3 198 The best example I can give you of

4 our working partnership is this. Every year our

5 communications department sits down with the station's

6 promotions department to block out a calendar for the

7 year, systematically working through all our fund

8 raising events. Together they come up with a plan for

9 the coming year: which events need the most support;

10 station personnel, who do we need; the telethon, what's

11 our critical path? And then it all happens seamlessly

12 and effectively.

13 199 As a fund raiser for more than 15

14 years, I can assure you that your fund raising efforts

15 will only be as successfull as the public's awareness

16 of your proposition and their awareness of your need.

17 Some years ago an Angus Reid study determined that B.C.

18 Children's Hospital's brand awareness, aided and

19 non-aided, was 93 percent, in the same neighbourhood as

20 brand awareness of Heinz ketchup and Kodak film. That

21 brand awareness simply would not be there without the

22 support of Global Television Vancouver.

23 200 With the station's help, we get our

24 message out and our need out to the public and the

25 public responds, and when the public responds we raise




1 funds for Children's Hsopital, and when the hospital

2 gets those funds it provides health care at a

3 world-class level. So when Global Television Vancouver

4 does what it does throughout the year, and for many

5 years, they perform what we certainly think is the best

6 public service of all. Their efforts help us help very

7 sick children get better.

8 201 Thank you for the time to speak with

9 you today.

10 202 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much

11 for coming here today, Ms Wightman. No questions.

12 203 THE SECRETARY: I would like to

13 invite Amy Pollen to make her presentation.


15 204 MS POLLEN: Religion is a very

16 powerful influence directed through the culture-shaping

17 medium of television. That is why I'm here today

18 earnestly requesting the group of 13 non-elected and

19 non-accountable Commissioners of the CRTC to stop

20 discriminating against Christian religious programs

21 while actively approving and permitting the lewd,

22 vulgar, destructive pornographic programs. Immorality

23 has been given license while positive faith and family

24 value programs have been largely excluded. This has

25 created an unbalanced system that is contributing to a




1 sick society. So I, as so many others, urge you to end

2 immediately the discrimination against religious

3 broadcasters by the CRTC. That was number 1.

4 205 Number 2, give priority consideration

5 to previously rejected Christian applicants for new

6 licenses. 3, especially the three multi-denominational

7 stations and the Catholic service called Eternal Word

8 Television Network. Restore these immediately.

9 Eternal Word Television Network has an audience of 55

10 million households in at least 38 nations.

11 206 To deny these uplifting programs

12 makes us wonder are we in a democracy. Yes. Is our

13 country democratic or not? Our Charter of Rights

14 states, "Everyone has the following fundamental

15 freedoms: (a) freedom of conscience and religion; (b)

16 freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression,

17 including freedom of the press and other media

18 communications." The CRTC policy clearly violates the

19 rights of all Canadians.

20 207 Also, by denying these religious

21 programs, we are also denying job creation that would

22 provide work for many.

23 208 Also, the good programming on the

24 justice system should be made available as one may not

25 realize the corruption that goes on until they are




1 regularly attending in court and see and hear for

2 themselves what's going on.

3 209 We are entitled to be fully informed

4 so we can make proper decisions and participate in the

5 building of our country.

6 210 Thank you all for listening and

7 giving me a chance to speak, and when are you having

8 your review so I can come to it, please?

9 211 Thank you.

10 212 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very

11 much, Ms Pollen. What review is it?

12 213 MS POLLEN: Well, you were saying to

13 this gentlemen you were going to review things and he

14 can come to it. Well, I would like to come to it, too.

15 214 THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, you are more

16 than welcome to come to it if -- it's a review of the

17 policy. I'm not clear at this point whether there will

18 be public hearings but --

19 215 MS POLLEN: Well, how do I come to

20 it? Where will it be held?

21 216 THE CHAIRPERSON: Maybe our legal

22 counsel can help here.

23 217 MR. KEOGH: Commissioner Wylie was

24 referring to the Commission's statement with respect to

25 the regulations that have been made for cable companies




1 and other distributors of programming. The Commission

2 would be reviewing those regulations in the next two

3 years and would be announcing a public process at that

4 time which would allow people to comment. It wasn't a

5 reference to a review of the Commission's religious

6 programming policy.

7 218 The Commission has received

8 applications for religious stations and has dealt with

9 them, most recently licensing a station for Toronto.

10 219 MS POLLEN: Thank you very much.

11 220 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very

12 much.

13 221 THE SECRETARY: I would like to

14 inquire whether Irma Mattes is here.

15 222 I don't see anyone responding. I

16 will recall Ms Mattes later.

17 223 Could Dorothy Livingston of the

18 Victoria Council of Canadians make her presentation.


20 224 MS LIVINGSTON: Thank you very much.

21 225 I think not many people are aware of

22 what the Council of Canadians are. It's a non-profit

23 society organized by citizens in response to major

24 changes nationally in governmental policies. It has

25 been going about 12 years. We presently have in




1 Victoria about 1,500 members and supporters and the

2 same growth has taken place throughout the country but

3 also in many parts of B.C.

4 226 I will proceed with what I have

5 written here.

6 227 What is the purpose of television?

7 There is a general assumption that its main role is for

8 entertainment and announcements; that is, for the

9 weather, programming events, news and, most

10 importantly, selling products. This has warped and

11 distorted all other roles for television, including the

12 news broadcasting, and has a huge destructive side

13 effect, many destructive side effects which can be

14 summed up by the term "toxic media."

15 228 I am here to applaud and plead for an

16 expansion of TV's other roles, which are not to

17 entertain or sell products. These other roles are for

18 the common good of individuals, families and our

19 communities.

20 229 I would like to support what Ms

21 Graydon said about Media Watch. There is a widespread

22 dissatisfaction with the present broadcasting of

23 television in spite of the fact that we now have more

24 channels than we have ever had before.

25 230 Having been a community organizer and




1 a producer and initiator of a variety of community TV

2 programs in Victoria for many years, I would like to

3 share a few examples of this experience and knowledge

4 with you. The most important function of this media is

5 local reporting and communication and I really can't

6 support more what many people have said, particularly

7 the woman who said she moved here and she now realizes

8 that as Toronto goes, so goes the nation, because

9 that's what comes across on the media in many cases.

10 231 However, there is another whole role,

11 and I am old enough to remember when the National Film

12 Board made films, they gathered together projectors and

13 they helped people to gather in a town hall -- I think

14 you call this a town hall meeting -- to discuss

15 national issues and other local or Canadian points of

16 interest, and I think that's exactly what Canadian

17 television is.

18 232 I also want to underscore what Mr.

19 Tan has said because there really doesn't seem to be

20 any definition of what community television is and

21 there certainly doesn't seem to be any commitment to

22 it, and this is appalling and that's mainly why I'm

23 here.

24 233 I think we need to look at what is an

25 untapped resource, and this is what television in my




1 mind -- and also radio, now the Internet, all of the

2 new technology -- is bringing forth, that the

3 participation of ordinary citizens is now a reality and

4 yet somehow we are going in a backward direction. We

5 are going like 20 years, in another decade. I can't

6 understand this.

7 234 The only other thing I want to say is

8 that TV is as important to the common good as pure

9 water or systems of sanitation and transportation. I

10 think we can't take this lightly. It can't be

11 frittered away on entertainment or consumerism. We are

12 citizens; we are not consumers.

13 235 In a rudimentary, quiet but effective

14 way, community television in Victoria has been

15 performing some of these functions, and some of the

16 examples are really quite interesting and I have a much

17 broader vision than what is presently in place in

18 Victoria but to lose what we have is, again,

19 overwhelming and alarming. We used to have coverage of

20 City Council and other government meetings and this

21 allows those meetings to take place in your living room

22 and there is nothing like that because people are not

23 able to go out in many cases to become participants at

24 City Hall meetings.

25 236 The Council of Canadians has




1 particularly utilized Shaw Cable to get our outstanding

2 speakers covered and broadcast and they weren't only

3 broadcast in Victoria because Shaw covers a lot of the

4 Interior and certainly most of the rest of the Island,

5 of the province. They brought these people in much

6 more depth. They would broadcast a speaker like Susan

7 George or Mara Carlos or Lynn McRae for an hour or

8 sometimes two hours with questions so that the public

9 stand there saying things that I think resonate with

10 other citizens about these issues and it really becomes

11 a forum that helps people to think, to develop and to

12 begin to bring community resources together.

13 237 Responding to unexpected crisis.

14 Now, it wasn't the television or the community

15 television that did that but in December of 1996

16 Victoria had a very unexpected blizzard and it brought

17 the city to its knees. I mean you couldn't get to the

18 hospital, nor could the doctors and nurses come home

19 and relieve their shifts. All right, who stepped into

20 the breach? It was a radio station, CFAX, and those

21 people stayed on the air and began to help the

22 community to organize themselves so that if a store or

23 a house, the roof was falling in, they were able to

24 tell people, who had already begun to get cell groups

25 in neighbourhoods going to rescue or respond to these




1 crises, "You need to go to that area if you have a

2 shovel and help them because otherwise the building is

3 collapsing."

4 238 I think that we are not somehow ready

5 to use the technology that is available to us to

6 respond not only to natural crises such as ice storms

7 or whatever but also to social crises, and we are

8 having a lot of those at the present time. That, I

9 think, is the real loss or the untapped resources that

10 we could be using much more effectively, and it isn't

11 good enough that we exclude the community in the way

12 that we do and that the airwaves or broadcasting is

13 only available to corporations generally and for a very

14 different purpose.

15 239 Some of the other things are that we

16 have had good coverage of the arts, local music and

17 drama, and this gives the public an opportunity. One

18 of the other very popular programs is authors reading

19 from their own works at "Authors Breakfasts" and so on.

20 240 The other area that I think is not

21 well covered is that if I had a child with special

22 needs -- say cerebral palsy -- and I moved to Victoria,

23 it's very difficult to find a network and most of those

24 kinds of problems do require a network of service

25 providers. There have been many directories and so on.




1 241 Also there are people who suddenly

2 face major medical crisis, for instance, such as having

3 a stroke, and they themselves and their families need

4 to suddenly educate themselves; how do I cope with

5 this? That's another role that television could be much

6 more helpful than it is already.

7 242 I would like to say that Vancouver

8 Island is undergoing a huge social disaster with our

9 fisheries closing and, again, where is the response?

10 Our newspapers are doing something about that but there

11 is only the sensationalization about this. Community

12 television can bring a whole other dimension that

13 responds to those problems in a very healing and

14 helpful way, not to mention a way that can solve some

15 of them in a different way than we have ever done it

16 before.

17 1730

18 243 The role of information in the

19 functioning of a healthy democracy cannot be

20 over-emphasized. Adequately balanced information and

21 widespread participation are essential. Radio and TV

22 can do this in spades. Unfortunately, the most

23 powerful and affluent dominate these media. Effective

24 use of community television is not always technically

25 proficient and slick but it does bring forth ideas and




1 voices that are rarely heard. These deserve protection

2 and enhancement to even the playing field in a true

3 democracy.

4 244 The other thing I want to say about

5 viewing of the outstanding speakers that I mentioned is

6 that in general CHEK TV and certainly not CBC, because

7 we don't even have CBC, do not cover these events. To

8 get someone to come out in the evening for a public

9 meeting is -- well, I don't know the answer of how you

10 do it, but when you have access to community

11 television, then you can even provide your own camera

12 people, and these are watched.

13 245 The staff at cable 11 in Victoria say

14 they have never had better viewer response than to some

15 of our programs. I didn't make that up, they said it.

16 246 Since media broadcasting is actually

17 a public, not a private resource, there should be at

18 least one broadcasting service that is community

19 controlled and accessible to all citizens.

20 247 The reported changes in our Shaw

21 community broadcast will greatly reduce the quantity

22 and variety of local programming. When you say two

23 years, I am appalled. I mean that is far, far too long

24 to do without our community television. It will just

25 be gone.




1 248 It will greatly reduce the quantity

2 and variety of local programming as well as reduce the

3 volunteer participation and training, and that is

4 another aspect that is quite important. The latest

5 thing that our provincial government has put into

6 practice is giving credits for tuition to students who

7 do community work. Well, a lot of students would like

8 to be involved in media.

9 249 I am here to represent the many

10 viewers, citizens, and volunteer non-profit societies

11 who consider community television essential. We are

12 not only asking that it be preserved as it is, but that

13 it really be enhanced because I think there's a huge

14 amount that could be, as I said before, available to

15 the community.

16 250 If we lose our present community

17 service, then viewers, citizens, and volunteer and

18 non-profit societies should be given complete control

19 over one community TV broadcast station as is done with

20 radio at the University of Victoria. That programming

21 for -- CFUV is entirely voluntary and many people watch

22 it and it is the only way that some groups can get the

23 message out and I think that is appalling.

24 251 Thank you very much.

25 252 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: Thank you, Mrs.




1 Livingston, but you have disappointed me greatly. I

2 was just about to decide to retire to Victoria. I

3 thought only Ottawa had blizzards.

4 253 I gather your comments are, like

5 those of Mr. Tan, about the community programming that

6 distributors, cable operators, offer.

7 254 MS LIVINGSTON: That's right. That's

8 all there is.

9 255 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: Has the Council

10 made its views known to the cable operator about the

11 apparently impending change in the community?

12 256 MS LIVINGSTON: There are many

13 citizens' groups in Victoria who are on the verge, as

14 long ago as when we had the earth law, to get together

15 and begin to protest, but it's difficult to get a clear

16 statement. What we have heard is very upsetting. We

17 would not like to go into an adversarial position. We

18 would like to somehow work with staff. Our

19 relationship with staff has been very good in Victoria

20 and I don't want to see that change by having to become

21 very aggressive, but I am serious when I say that this

22 is wrong and to lose something so important is

23 detrimental. It's detrimental to our communities.

24 257 MS POLLEN: I forgot one paragraph.

25 Would you like me to say it? It's a very important




1 one.

2 258 THE CHAIRPERSON: Would you tell us

3 your name again, please, for the court reporter.

4 259 MS POLLEN: My name is Amy Pollen.

5 260 THE CHAIRPERSON: I wonder if we

6 could let perhaps Mrs. Livingston finish and then you

7 are welcome to.

8 261 MS POLLEN: I thought she was

9 finished. I'm sorry.

10 262 MS LIVINGSTON: I am finished unless

11 you have more questions.

12 263 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Thank you.

13 264 MS POLLEN: Can I say it now?

14 265 I urge you once again to recognize

15 that religious broadcasting is not a destructive force

16 but a positive influence, a soothing influence for all

17 but especially for the disabled, the elderly and for

18 those who have been denied the right to assert their

19 rights under the Charter. What we need is clean,

20 wholesome films.

21 266 Thank you.

22 267 THE SECRETARY: I would like to ask

23 Darren Lowe to make his presentation now, please.


25 268 MR. LOWE: Thank you very much for




1 hosting this hearing today. My favourite TV channel

2 was CPAC, the Canadian Public Affairs Channel. I have

3 been involved in government here in British Columbia.

4 I ran for office and am currently president of one of

5 British Columbia's political parties. I thoroughly

6 enjoyed the coverage on CPAC of the House of Commons,

7 the various legislatures, provincial and territorial

8 elections. I no doubt was in a minority but it was

9 certainly my favourite channel on the dial.

10 269 Last Thursday, October 16th, I was

11 very surprised to read in the "Vancouver Sun" under

12 "Displaced Channels" that CPAC was moving to channel 70

13 from channel 19 the very next day. There was hardly

14 even time for a funeral.

15 270 I couldn't get channel 70 and the

16 October 21st "Vancouver Sun" explained why. A

17 representative from Rogers Cablevision noted that

18 Vancouver basic cable subscribers cannot get the

19 specialty services because channels higher than 44 are

20 automatically blocked from the cable dial.

21 271 As I understand the process, almost

22 anyone can apply for a TV channel. Should you approve

23 it, then the various cable operators like Rogers and

24 Shaw can choose if they wish to air that particular

25 channel and if they wish to place it on the dial, the




1 basic rule being that a number of madatory Canadian

2 programming services such as CBC, English and French,

3 local and regional stations, B.C.'s Knowledge Network

4 and a community channel take priority.

5 272 I'm here today to suggest that, as

6 part of the approval process, cable companies present

7 their line-up for approval by yourselves. Then channel

8 viewers, taxpayers, who have no option, as there is no

9 competition, can comment to you whether the new

10 channels they are getting are going to be better than

11 the old ones that they will be losing.

12 273 In closing, I would like to note just

13 as well how impressed I was last autumn with the prompt

14 and comprehensive responses received to my complaints

15 from your Marguerite Vogel, who at that time and

16 perhaps even now is the acting director for B.C. and

17 the Territory regions.

18 274 I'm sure mine is one of the shorter

19 presentations today but I want to thank you for

20 listening and I urge you to consider my suggestion that

21 there be some sort of a public process so that before

22 new channels are placed on the dial people have an

23 opportunity to comment and to decide whether what they

24 are getting as new channels is better than what they

25 are losing as old channels.




1 275 Thank you.

2 276 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very

3 much, and, yes, Marguerite Vogel is right here today.

4 Thank you very much.

5 277 I think what we'll do is take a

6 15-minute break or a 20-minute break and be back here

7 at six o'clock. Thank you.

8 --- Recessed at 1744/Suspension à 1744

9 --- Resumed at 1800/Reprise à 1800

10 278 THE SECRETARY: Our next presenter

11 this evening is Richard Ward.


13 279 MR. WARD: I would like to speak in

14 favour of community programming. For many years I have

15 been talking with Rogers managers about community

16 channel policies. My views are well known there, which

17 is not entirely the same as having them adopted.

18 Neither are they entirely opposed. I believe the

19 Canada television and cable production fund should be

20 designating money for independent community television.

21 280 In 1971 I was working in Castlegar to

22 establish a community channel following guidelines

23 recently established by the CRTC. Our territory ran

24 from Grand Forks to Revelstoke, about 50,000 square

25 miles.




1 281 The government of the day was

2 planning to ship southeast B.C. coal down to the United

3 States by building what would be called the Kootenay at

4 Elk Railway. They thought it would be cheaper to ship

5 coal through the U.S. Revelstoke is a railway hump.

6 The city had been going through a real depression.

7 Revelstoke had been counting on new southeast coal

8 shipments to get back on its feet and now that business

9 was heading south.

10 282 Our community producer, New Denver,

11 got a show together right away. We drove it to CHBC TV

12 in Kelowna, which broadcasts into Revelstoke, and they

13 played our tape right after the hockey game. Soon a

14 lot of people in the southern interior were talking

15 about how the railroad is a big part of Canada and this

16 was a chance to keep jobs in Canada. The Kootenay at

17 Elk bypassing Canada never did get built. I think we

18 helped cause that and we discovered the importance of

19 the issue to people in our area by having a community

20 television network.

21 283 In the '80s I produced a Kitsilano

22 news magazine called "Free Style." Henry Hertzog was

23 with a group trying to get UBC endowment land set aside

24 for a park. We did items, we did interviews and put

25 his group on phone talk shows. A couple of years later




1 the provincial government established Pacific Spirit

2 Park, today the largest park in the Vancouver area. I

3 like to think our community programming helped to make

4 that happen.

5 284 Recently I have been working with

6 ICTV, Independent Community Television Co-operative.

7 Last year two of our series, "After Hours" and "Night

8 Watch", did several interviews on the Gustavson Lake

9 First Nations stand-off. We gave participants a chance

10 to be heard and the series was rebroadcast nationally

11 by Vision TV. There we did two things the community

12 channel is supposed to do. We gave people a chance to

13 speak at length, something a commercial broadcaster

14 can't afford, and we publicized the views of a part of

15 society under-represented by the mass media.

16 285 We continued to work on aboriginal

17 issues and are about to do a youth television training

18 series with United Native Nations.

19 286 I believe when the CRTC established

20 the community channel, these are the kind of activities

21 Commissioners hoped would happen.

22 287 Our group, now ICTV, was Van East

23 Community TV, one of 11 neighbourhood offices closed

24 when Rogers consolidated production into two Lower

25 Mainland studios. To remain in East Vancouver, we




1 incorporated as a non-profit society, CMES, Community

2 Media Education Society, and as a co-operative, ICTV.

3 288 We continue to win international

4 programming awards. In the years since becoming

5 independent we have produced 60 new shows, 30 hours of

6 programming. We have 62 members and an open door

7 policy for new members. Our members speak 15 different

8 languages and the multicultural channel show, TV

9 Brazil, is produced at ICTV.

10 289 We have had some success fund raising

11 in our neighbourhood, the poorest in Canada, but for

12 the longer-term financing it does seem that we are

13 exactly who the CRTC community channel policy was

14 designed to support.

15 290 Some new members, we attract because

16 they fear corporate-managed community shows are

17 shifting toward formats and topics very similar to

18 those on local commercial stations. Freedom to cover

19 under-reported topics is a large part of the impetus to

20 become independent.

21 291 I have done community channel

22 programs for more than 25 years. Financial support for

23 the community channel has been the CRTC requirement

24 that cable companies, in return for their use of the

25 public airwaves, to import non-Canadian programming,




1 provide a percentage of revenue to support Canadian

2 programming.

3 292 At first all the money went to the

4 community channel. With the growth of Canada's movie

5 industry, some of that money was redirected to Canadian

6 film production companies. Beginning January 1st this

7 year the policy no longer requires any money to be set

8 aside for community programming. I don't mind sharing

9 but I think it's a mistake to abandon a policy that's

10 done so much good.

11 293 I should also say I recognize we are

12 in a very competitive broadcast environment. Here in

13 Vancouver Rogers Cable has done a great deal to develop

14 the community channel and I think it's unfair if they

15 have to bear the sole cost of supporting community

16 programming while their competitors, the satellite

17 distributors and telephone companies, are spared that

18 expense. Under the Broadcasting Act, the airwaves

19 belong to the people. I believe all companies

20 profiting from our communications system, one of the

21 best in the world, should give something back to the

22 communities they serve.

23 294 Historically the levy on the cable

24 companies has varied from five percent of basic cable

25 subscriber revenues to two percent of gross revenues.




1 Using the latter figure and restricting my interest to

2 East Vancouver, the neighbourhood served by ICTV, I can

3 see sufficient support for our independent community

4 channel service. If I look at cable systems in the

5 Rogers communication 1997 annual report, I see 350,000

6 subscribers in the city of Vancouver at an average

7 monthly revenue of $29.73. Assuming the low levy of

8 two percent and also that ICTV represents one of 11

9 original neighbourhoods, our annual share would be

10 about $225,000. We can do a lot of good work with that

11 kind of money.

12 295 When I was young the CRTC brought in

13 a community channel policy. It's made a big difference

14 in my life. Now you are examining new policies for the

15 entire broadcast system, policies that will affect the

16 next generation. I believe if you direct the Canada

17 television and broadcast fund or a similar fund to

18 support independent community television, we will all

19 continue to benefit.

20 296 I want to remind you that you are

21 building on success and also that I am personally

22 grateful for the foresight of the group you represent,

23 the CRTC.

24 297 Thank you for your attention.

25 298 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr.




1 Ward. Like your colleague Mr. Tan and some others, you

2 have made a very eloquent and articulate case for

3 community television. I'm wondering, have you

4 approached the Canadian Cable Television, CC -- I

5 always get mixed up, the fund -- for funding? Have you

6 presented this idea to them?

7 299 MR. WARD: We have gone through their

8 guidelines, and the requirement for a license by a

9 commercial broadcaster stands in our way.

10 300 THE CHAIRPERSON: I see. They have

11 responded in that manner to you, have they?

12 301 MR. WARD: I'm afraid the guidelines

13 were such to discourage me from a formal application.

14 302 THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, thank you

15 very much. My colleague, Ms Wylie.


17 don't think you were here earlier when we discussed

18 your concern, which is community programming and the

19 fear that there won't be as much money funnelled into

20 it, correct?

21 304 MR. WARD: That was at a previous

22 hearing?

23 305 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: No, we were

24 discussing this earlier with someone else.

25 306 MR. WARD: No, I have been here since




1 the start.

2 307 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: You were here?

3 But it's the same concern --

4 308 MR. WARD: Yes.

5 309 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: -- that there

6 will be fewer funds funnelled to the community channel.

7 310 It seems to me you think that the

8 satellite distributors don't have to give any money to

9 the community channel, but they do have to pay the five

10 percent, the same five percent into the fund. So all

11 distributors, whether they are satellite or cable, have

12 to put into the fund; if it's satellite, five percent

13 of their gross revenues from broadcasting activities.

14 The difference with cable is that there is some

15 flexibility that some of the money goes to the fund and

16 some to the community channel as a result of the

17 Commission reviewing this policy.

18 311 So I'm wondering whether you have

19 made known to the cable company that serves you how

20 much you appreciate the opportunity for a community

21 channel and any concern you may have that the amount of

22 money funnelled into it, as opposed to the production

23 fund, is diminished?

24 312 MR. WARD: I have made that point.

25 Our dilemma is that we are an independent community




1 channel. We are provided air time. Our dilemma is we

2 must raise core funding for our equipment replacement

3 to keep our office going, and I see no route short of

4 fund raising within our neighbourhood, doing small

5 productions, taking a share for the office, to make up

6 that money and yet it does seem to me that the policy

7 was intended to allow the kind of community programming

8 that I think we do better than the cable companies.

9 313 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: So you are not

10 using the cable operators' equipment and the funds that

11 they supply to the community channel? You are actually

12 a producer?

13 314 MR. WARD: Yes.

14 315 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: With your own

15 equipment and resources?

16 316 MR. WARD: That is true.

17 317 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: And does this

18 programming end up on the community channel?

19 318 MR. WARD: Yes, it does.

20 319 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: As well, as I

21 think I understood you to say, to Vision, as well --

22 320 MR. WARD: That's right.


24 presumably wherever you can sell it. So you are not

25 talking about the problem of not having enough




1 financial resources supplied by the cable company to

2 allow your group to produce programming?

3 322 MR. WARD: That is not our problem,

4 no.

5 323 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: But you use air

6 time on this community channel as well?

7 324 MR. WARD: Yes.

8 325 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: And possibly

9 some of this programming has developed sufficiently to

10 be aired on other licensees?

11 326 MR. WARD: Yes.


13 important because there is a flexibility there and

14 there will be a review later as to how it's worked or

15 developed that groups make sure that the cable

16 operators are made aware of the community's desire --

17 or in your case you must have some people who

18 appreciate the programming?

19 328 MR. WARD: Oh, many, yes.

20 329 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: To make it known

21 to the cable companies that it's something that you

22 cherish and want continually because eventually we'll

23 review how this has worked, but we thank you for your


25 330 Thank you, Madam Chair.




1 331 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

2 332 THE SECRETARY: I would like to check

3 to see if Keith Matthews has arrived yet.

4 333 I don't see anyone responding. Then

5 I would like to invite Ann-Marie Sleeman to be our next

6 presenter, please.


8 334 MS SLEEMAN: Hello. Thanks for the

9 opportunity to speak. I'm one of those community

10 television producers. I do this at a volunteer level.

11 I have no financial gain on anything I have done and I

12 have done it for 12 years. My average commitment in

13 each month to the community is approximately 10 to 20

14 hours and that's producing programs of interest to the

15 community.

16 335 Essentially I'm here as an individual

17 although I have lots of colleagues here, both within

18 the community television activist circle as well as the

19 environmental community, and I want to speak strongly

20 in favour of more of a fair treatment for community

21 television producers.

22 336 When Rick was talking basically about

23 being an independent producer, yes, we are independent

24 producers under CMES, Community Media Education

25 Society, and its subsidiary, Independent Community




1 Television but, just to clarify, that's a non-profit

2 organization that we had to start essentially because

3 Rogers shut one of the most award-winning community TV

4 offices in this country down because it wanted to save

5 money because it got too greedy three years before and

6 screwed up their finances.

7 337 Meanwhile our office gets touted

8 out -- or it used to under the auspices of Van East,

9 under Van East -- as some big quality neighbourhood

10 contribution that Rogers has been making, that -- our

11 award winning programming, oh, it's so great, 15, 16

12 awards from all over North America, not just Canada or

13 B.C. or our own back yard. I'm sure they trotted that

14 out for your perusal as well under CRTC reglations, but

15 when it came down to actually promoting those programs

16 to the average subscriber on cable, forget it. We

17 asked for five, six, 10 years, and even as a community

18 PR initiative, they didn't recognize the value of that

19 until about two years ago and then they started gearing

20 up after they shut down our offices and put down basic

21 programming that mirrors local programming, local talk

22 shows, local film stars and blah blah blah.

23 338 Well, I'm here to tell you that

24 community TV has contributed enormously to my life in

25 terms of just based on education of what reality is.




1 Reality is people in your neighbourhood, people from

2 all walks of life, people doing different things and

3 why, people contributing to the building of this

4 nation, and you don't get that hardly on mainstream TV.

5 You don't.

6 339 Again, I have no financial interest

7 in any of this. I do it out of my own interest to give

8 back something to my society. I don't do it to pay off

9 a student debt even though that's probably one of the

10 main focuses of some people now joining us in doing

11 that, or they think it's glamorous. Well, it's not.

12 You are sitting at an edit bay at 12 o'clock, at

13 midnight, trying to get something done.

14 340 We had to set our own non-profit,

15 frankly, because our regular volunteers, most of whom

16 work during the day, couldn't get to an edit bay at

17 2:00 a.m. in the morning.

18 341 Rogers donated their equipment to us.

19 It's a write-off. That was really generous of them but

20 they created more work because we have to do fund

21 raising for core needs.

22 342 In terms of applicability to the

23 wider community, the show I produce, "Earth Scene" --

24 which I did for three years and prior to that a number

25 of others, for about seven prior to that -- was all




1 about how the community can get involved in issues that

2 are of importance to them and, by that, in terms of

3 "Earth Scene", it was environmental issues, and

4 environmental issues aren't some subsidiary of when we

5 get around to it. It's the basis of each person's life

6 here. The prosperity of the natural world, biological

7 diversity, is a foundation of society. It's a

8 foundation of the economy. We don't live outside a

9 system. We are part of a living system. It's called

10 an ecosystem.

11 343 We have had excellent programming on

12 "Earth Scene", if I do say so myself. In the first

13 year and the second and the third year we had, on

14 average, 150 community groups participate in terms of

15 their people on to speak to the issues, to react to

16 industry propaganda, to react because of basically the

17 bottom line blackout on environmental issues on the

18 mainstream so-called private media, and they have only

19 started to improve now.

20 344 So this basic environmental issue

21 that never gets covered even though it's the bottom

22 line for everybody's life force here, we come in to

23 fill the gap and then basically we are told that we are

24 not slick enough. Well, pardon me, but with a

25 volunteer team that has been trained for four or five




1 years, we are pretty darn good for what we have, which

2 is basically nothing but an infrastructure of

3 dilapidated equipment that falls apart more often than

4 it's pulled together.

5 345 I can say, well, the corporate world

6 and the government owes us something. Well, the

7 government owes us leadership on those issues, and the

8 CRTC needs a better framework for defining what

9 community programming is, a better understanding of its

10 validity.

11 346 We are a country and the bottom for

12 this country is we are communities within a vast

13 geography and there's communication and there's

14 transportation and there's all the ethnicities that

15 pull it together and that's Canada. And if you want to

16 know what your community is really about and who you

17 are within it, if you turn on the community channel,

18 it's not going to be some fluff show. It's going to be

19 maybe talking heads, it's going to be maybe some people

20 not technically adept yet, but so what? It's real

21 people with real information, and if we have got to

22 keep selling info like info-tainment for people to

23 listen to, the bottom line, what's basically to their

24 quality of life, I suggest that the CRTC needs to take

25 some leadership on this.




1 347 And frankly I'm just really annoyed

2 because in community TV for years -- and I have been

3 doing this for 12 years -- we put on all kinds of stuff

4 and we have mainstream media basically monitoring our

5 programming and we'll see it two to three weeks later

6 show up on the lunch hour of BCTV, after they basically

7 felt, oh, I guess it's okay to talk about this

8 controversial issue.

9 348 And to their credit or in their

10 defense, they are busy, they don't put as much into

11 research, whatever -- it's on the backs of us

12 volunteers -- but they sometimes lift our programming.

13 Fair enough.

14 349 However, when it comes down to it,

15 they are relying on us as a resource tool to get the

16 general message out to the broader community because

17 they either don't want to rock the boat or they want to

18 push the envelope or they want to see how it settles

19 with the viewers.

20 350 So that's another service that

21 community programming has done for this country and

22 this neighbourhood.

23 351 On average, the last figures I saw --

24 and they are ancient, basically -- is 30,000 people at

25 any one time watch community TV, times maybe three




1 reruns, four reruns a month, 120,000 people. But from

2 there it parlays out into major issues being covered.

3 352 Two years ago we did a whole half

4 hour on endocrine disruptors. I don't know if anyone

5 knows what that is but it's basically plastics leaching

6 into your body, which will eventually disrupt your

7 reproductive system and cause genetic failure. Well,

8 that was a non-issue. Now all we see in "Maclean's",

9 oh, men and their sperm count all going down and

10 endocrine disruptors. The CBC phoned me up at work --

11 I work for an environmental organization -- anything

12 hot? Yeah, there's this thing coming on on our show,

13 our show, mine and Sid's, in conjunction with our other

14 volunteers. I don't get paid to produce it. So then

15 it was a big issue on CBC.

16 353 All I'm saying is that if people are

17 going to start riding our coat tails or they are going

18 to start looking at our ideas and then basically saying

19 we are out of the loop because we are not professional,

20 it's just BS. If they want to monitor our programming

21 and we want to help the Canadian public be better

22 informed, then great.

23 354 But I think the CRTC really has to

24 pull up some socks on this and I think overall that the

25 airwaves is a public utility. When there's complaints




1 in terms of the coverage of what's available for the

2 average viewer, well, frankly, I just disconnected my

3 cable. I just can't take it any more. And for a

4 while, for a year, I sat and counted how many murders

5 on American TV, how many rapes, how many innuendos, and

6 on Canadian TV, yeah, a little bit. I get CBC, yeah,

7 fair enough.

8 355 But in terms of community outreach,

9 under my paid hat I have a lot of colleagues around

10 this province who basically can't even get

11 environmental programming put on community TV because

12 they live in small towns where resource based

13 industries dominate and the environmental angle is just

14 too controversial.

15 356 Well, stopping clear cutting was

16 controversial. Now we see where it's going and that's

17 coming from public information, the public doing

18 something and everybody seeing a little bit of a

19 different spin on the average mainstream news.

20 1820

21 357 So if I'm going on and sounding like

22 a hag, I want to concur with Sid, I want to concur with

23 Rick and just about about everybody in this room,

24 including First Nations coverage. We have done that

25 and we'll continue to do that. As for religious




1 programming, I think you are right; I think, in my

2 view, religion is essentially -- you are in the service

3 of the community to live a religious life. That's your

4 contribution. So that could be, you know, the

5 community of Christ, community of Buddha, community of

6 Allah, Mohammed, whatever, but if we are talking about

7 a diversity in the fabric of Canada, it includes

8 reality.

9 358 And I would like to urge you to not

10 wait two years for a review of community TV production

11 because we'll be dead by then.

12 359 Thank you.

13 --- Applause/Applaudissements

14 360 THE CHAIRPERSON: I just want to

15 thank you very much. You don't sound at all like a hag

16 and, again, you also made a very passionate and very

17 articulate case for community television.

18 361 I'm curious, how long have you been

19 in existence as an entity?


21 363 THE CHAIRPERSON: Or the independent

22 community channel.

23 364 MS SLEEMAN: They were incorporated

24 in February 1997, wasn't it? It's '98 now.

25 365 MR. WARD: The incorporation date for




1 CMES was April 30th, 1997. The office was formed

2 February 18th, 1996, when Rogers shut down the office

3 and the volunteers formed it.

4 366 MS SLEEMAN: Right.

5 367 THE CHAIRPERSON: So slightly over a

6 year, a year and a bit.

7 368 MR. WARD: Year and a bit.

8 369 THE CHAIRPERSON: And how are you

9 funded at this point? Where have you received your

10 funding or how have you received your funding, if any?

11 370 MS SLEEMAN: Rick can answer. He's

12 the treasurer.

13 371 MR. WARD: We have projects that

14 members do. Rogers paid the rent on the office through

15 to February of this year. We have rented a space on

16 Hastings Street, 1650 East Hastings, for six months

17 with a $10,000 Rogers grant. We don't expect that to

18 be renewed. We expect to net 10,000 for the office

19 from United Native Nations training series. That

20 should give us another six months. We have a project

21 coming up after that where again we hope to net $7,000.

22 That will give us another six months. So we are going

23 with small amounts but we are making them stretch.

24 372 THE CHAIRPERSON: Do you get paid for

25 any of your programming? Do you get any financial




1 compensation?

2 373 MR. WARD: No.

3 374 THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, again, I

4 thank you very much for coming here today, all of you.

5 Thank you.

6 375 THE SECRETARY: I would like to

7 invite Sadie Kuehn to make her presentation next,

8 please.


10 376 MS KUEHN: I'm going to respond. I'm

11 going to talk about the matter of diversity but I

12 personally don't think that one can talk about

13 diversity and the CRTC policy on it without actually

14 talking about it in its broadest terms, so that's my

15 intent. I will talk about it in the context of the

16 cultural diversity that exists within Canadian society

17 and also touch on the matter of gender, if one can

18 touch on it -- that's a pun -- and also to talk about

19 it, as I said, in the broadest terms, so to also talk

20 about sexual orientation.

21 377 I think that you have a document

22 before you. I am here representing the Affiliations of

23 Multicultural Societies and Service Agencies. I am the

24 chairperson of the policy research and interracism

25 committee for that organization.




1 378 AMSSA is a non-profit, non-protestant

2 coalition of 75 organizations and groups throughout the

3 province of B.C. The key focus has been on immigration

4 services and other multicultural educational concerns.

5 Through education and liaison and research and special

6 projects, we promote multiculturalism and support

7 agencies working in this area in addressing the needs

8 of people who have lived here for a long time and

9 newcomers. We have also seen our work as really key in

10 working with First Nations people and linguistic

11 minorities in this community.

12 379 You had some questions that you

13 posed. At least the first notice that we got about

14 this meeting last week touched on four key areas. You

15 wondered how important it was for Canadian television

16 programming. How important it was to us was one of the

17 questions. Do we agree that Canadian television

18 programming should reflect our views and our values as

19 Canadians? Do we think it does? What type of Canadian

20 programming interests us?

21 380 We responded to those four areas and

22 I'm here to say that, in our view, Canadian programming

23 in Canadian television for networking and making links

24 across this country, we perceive as being really,

25 really key. We are clear that the values that we share



1 as Canadians are the key values that are really

2 important to all of us, and they are values that focus

3 on equality and fairness and equity.

4 381 We do not believe that the current

5 programming in Canada actually reflects either the CRTC

6 commitment to diversity or the stated goals and

7 commitments of Canadian society overall as a fair and

8 just society.

9 382 Some of the things that we think

10 would be key to bring about changes within the current

11 milieu is the image of the diversity of people who make

12 up Canada. In reading through the document that was

13 circulated by the CRTC, it talks about the more recent

14 diversity of Canada. I think, to me as a Canadian, it

15 concerns me as a Canadian who is a person of colour and

16 who is a woman. It concerns me that that misnomer

17 continues to be the case. I would like to mention to

18 the individuals who raised the question about the

19 changing diversity that there is no doubt that Canada

20 is seen to be more diverse at this point but certainly

21 in the early 1900's there was a higher percentage of

22 aboriginal people and other people of colour,

23 particularly in B.C., than there is today. And one of

24 the reasons that we have a perception that in fact

25 Canada is now more diverse now than it was is because




1 there are more people who are more visible in some key

2 areas. I think our experience has been that that

3 diversity is not necessarily reflected in a substantive

4 way within the telecommunications system and certainly

5 not on Canadian TV.

6 383 We believe that in fact there is a

7 need for greater diversity. We believe that in fact

8 until there is more diversity within the Canadian

9 television networks, that the issue of whether or not

10 people will watch Canadian programming is still an

11 issue. And I think that where we are at this point is

12 that a lot of people are not watching Canadian TV,

13 often not because of -- in our view it's because of a

14 lack of diversity.

15 384 There was a mention earlier on about

16 community television and the need to enhance what

17 exists and I think that, certainly in terms of AMSSA,

18 we support that notion. The issue of equity and

19 visibility, though, is really key. The number of

20 programs that currently are presented within the

21 Vancouver area that include First Nations people,

22 aboriginal people, is very limited with aboriginal

23 people producing the programs themselves and presenting

24 those programs. The number of programs that are

25 produced publicly or privately by other people from




1 diverse communities, both in front of the camera and

2 behind the camera, is also very limited.

3 385 We think that this is a pivotal time

4 for the CRTC in terms of looking at these issues. We

5 trust that in fact the CRTC will be committed to

6 putting in place the policies that are necessary and

7 enforcing the current policies to ensure that greater

8 diversity exists and it's not just a matter of

9 fulfilling an expectation to support our shared values

10 but it's also a way of maintaining and increasing the

11 number of people who actually view Canadian-produced

12 material and watch Canadian television.

13 386 We know that for women, regardless of

14 their cultural background, that it has been really

15 important for there to be more women involved in the

16 development, the production and the presentation of

17 programs. We also know that the number of women from

18 diverse communities who have a chance to participate in

19 those areas, even with Studio D and other resources,

20 has still been very limited.

21 387 Again, the expectation that we have

22 is that the CRTC will provide the support in terms of

23 policy, in the changes in policy to support greater

24 inclusion of diverse communities across the board, and

25 that is diversity in terms of cultural diversity.




1 388 It is also the case in terms of the

2 diversity in terms of gender and in terms of sexual

3 orientation. I didn't go into that area very much but

4 the realty is that we know that still there are very

5 few resources and very few programs that are developed

6 in Canada that actually look at a cross-section of

7 individuals, and sexual orientation is one of the areas

8 that continually winds up being left out.

9 389 Thank you for your time.

10 390 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

11 391 Commissioner Wylie?

12 392 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: Thank you, Ms

13 Kuehn. I'm not sure what exactly it is you take

14 offence about in the document. Is it the sentence that

15 Canadian society is becoming increasingly culturally

16 diverse?

17 393 MS KUEHN: I'm not taking great

18 offence to it. All I'm saying is that I think that

19 it's something that's stated often, that it's becoming

20 more diverse. I guess my statement is that

21 historically Canada has been diverse. The question is

22 whether or not that diversity has been represented

23 within our institutions, and television and

24 telecommunications is one of those areas that that

25 diversity has not been represented.




1 394 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: Yes. I think

2 you could also take it positively, that if it is more

3 culturally diverse, the discrepancy between the reality

4 of the diversity and its reflection on TV is all the

5 more -- it's all the more necessary to address it, I

6 suppose, is probably what is intended. If you look at

7 the large cities, the discrepancy between the

8 reflection and the reality makes it an even more

9 pressing matter to address.

10 395 MS KUEHN: I guess one of the things

11 for me is, as a Canadian, and as someone who has lived

12 in many parts of this province, as a person who looks

13 visibly different from the majority -- and I share that

14 experience with, I think, a sizable number of people,

15 including aboriginal people -- that the reality for me,

16 having lived all over B.C. for the last 30 years, is

17 that, again, that experience is not a new experience.

18 And it's not in urban centres; it was outside of urban

19 centres and it was in areas where there was community

20 television, places like Kitimat and places like

21 Kamloops, B.C. and places like Midway, B.C.

22 396 The reality for us, though, is that

23 it wasn't deemed to be reasonable or necessary for --

24 certainly not for aboriginal communities to have access

25 to television production or to be a part of that whole




1 process, and it also wasn't a possibility for people

2 from a diverse community to also have that access.

3 397 I think one of the things that is

4 also really key around this is that often when one

5 talks about the presence of people from diverse

6 backgrounds and aboriginal people, it gets modulized as

7 putting forward the impression that it's really a

8 need -- and you are speaking from your own particular

9 biases -- than it being something that is really for

10 the good of the whole community. The reality, I guess

11 for me again, is that having diverse representation

12 throughout the medium of television and communication

13 and telecommunication generally would be a great asset

14 to not just people from diverse -- well, all of us are

15 from diverse backgrounds. It would be of benefit to

16 all of us to have that.

17 398 And I think it would in terms of

18 marketing -- I didn't want to necessarily go that

19 route, but certainly in terms of a world or

20 international economic agenda, it would make sense for

21 us to have television that is much more culturally

22 diverse than what exists now. It seems to me that it

23 would put us in a really good place, position us well

24 to be able to sell more of our programs around the

25 world. We have the resources to be able to do that.




1 We aren't capitalizing on those resources to actually

2 make us much more competitive.

3 399 Canadians represent almost every

4 cultural group in the world. If we were able or

5 committed to integrating that into our

6 telecommunications systems, our TV and radio and our

7 press generally, again, I think that our ability to

8 outreach and to be able to position ourselves well to

9 capitalize on international, in creating a greater

10 international presence, I think would be something that

11 would be reasonable, but again you need to have two

12 things, it seems to me, to be able to do that. We need

13 to have the vision and we also need to have a

14 commitment to taking it on.

15 400 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: Thank you, Ms

16 Kuehn.

17 401 Thank you, Madam Chairman.

18 402 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very

19 much.

20 403 MS KUEHN: You are welcome.

21 404 THE SECRETARY: I would like to

22 invite Steve Richards to make his presentation now.

23 He's representing Crimestoppers.


25 405 MR. RICHARDS: My name is Steve




1 Richards. I'm a director and officer of Crimestoppers

2 of Greater Vancouver.

3 406 Crimestoppers is a community-based,

4 non-profit society which is funded by concerned

5 citizens and corporations in the community. Basically

6 what Crimestoppers does is it publicizes crimes through

7 the use of the media, which includes television and

8 radio. Generally what happens is its citizens phone in

9 on a toll-free tips line and anonymously provide

10 information which is then forwarded to the appropriate

11 police authorities.

12 407 Basically Crimestoppers for Vancouver

13 is a critical community policing intiative,

14 particularly in Vancouver, where we experience a high

15 level of property crime. Currently this year, just to

16 give you some overview of the society's effectiveness,

17 is that this year recovered property, stolen property

18 and drug seizures exceeded $100 million in the

19 community.

20 408 Now, what has this got to do with

21 your mandate or the mandate of the CRTC? Well, we have

22 a partnership or a major partnership with Global

23 Television whereby they provide us with approximately

24 two and a half million dollars a year of free services

25 and that represents air time, free access to their




1 production facilities. Without Global's involvement we

2 could not do what we do. It would be impossible for

3 us. In fact, I would say that Crimestoppers' profile

4 in the Vancouver community, in the Greater Vancouver

5 community, is probably solely as a result of the help

6 that we get and assistance we get from Global.

7 409 Because of this profile issue, if for

8 some reason Global was unable, for one reason or

9 another, to provide us with their support and

10 assistance, we would have to severely curtail our

11 ability to provide community-based policing services.

12 We are anxious that the CRTC, through its current

13 policy review mandate, does not adversely impact

14 Crimestoppers by changing Global's programming mandate

15 and we would strongly endorse any -- if there's any

16 review process, we would strongly endorse the status

17 quo with respect to Global simply because they have

18 been our partner for eight or nine years now. The

19 partnership has worked, it's been highly successful.

20 410 The Crimestoppers program in Greater

21 Vancouver has won national and international awards for

22 its effectiveness and it can only do that when it has

23 an active and effective partner on the

24 telecommunications side.

25 411 We would note that it's in the




1 interest of the community that Global remain

2 financially secure so they can continue to make the

3 huge contributions that they do to the local community

4 and to issues such as Crimestoppers.

5 412 That basically concludes my comments.

6 413 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Is this

7 partnership with Global a national partnership or a

8 local partnership?

9 414 MR. RICHARDS: It's a local

10 partnership.

11 415 THE CHAIRPERSON: Do you know if the

12 other chapters have a similar arrangement? I'm just

13 curious really.

14 416 MR. RICHARDS: Well, Crimestoppers is

15 an international organization and generally what local

16 community groups do is they form a partnership with a

17 local television corporation, which then hopefully can

18 assist it in getting its message out, and that means

19 that Global is certainly our partner in Vancouver but I

20 couldn't tell you who, say for example, the Montreal

21 group use or the Toronto group use.

22 417 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very

23 much. I appreciate you coming here today.

24 418 THE SECRETARY: Our next presenter is

25 Patrick Zulinov.





2 419 MR. ZULINOV: Ladies and gentlemen,

3 thanks for having me here and allowing me to speak. I

4 hope everyone is having an all right day.

5 420 With all the differences between

6 everybody in this room, I think there's one thing that

7 everyone has in common here and it's the appreciation

8 that most of us can have for a good piece of music,

9 whether it's to change your mood or make you a little

10 happier or for whatever reason. There is usually a

11 song in everyone's life that seems to make you feel a

12 little bitter.

13 421 I would like to speak today on the

14 importance of the coverage and supporting the arts in

15 Canada and the music and not just music but theatre and

16 every kind of art really.

17 422 There's a lot of prospective artists

18 that need the support of television. They are

19 supported through radio in a large way, but having come

20 to this city a few years ago, I was a little confused

21 in my record company position that I had a real hard

22 time getting local media, television in particular, to

23 cover quality Canadian artists. I'm not saying every

24 artist out of Canada is deserving of a lot of coverage

25 on TV. Some are with denres that don't necessarily




1 have large audiences, be it heavy metal or something to

2 that effect that may not appeal to the general

3 community, but it really confused me that there was a

4 real problem getting a little bit of publicity for a

5 Canadian artist that was worthwhile and people may want

6 to know about.

7 423 And Canadian music is a real hot item

8 right now. I'm not sure if everyone knows that around

9 the world. We have one of the most fabulous singers in

10 the world from Canada, Celine Dion, and it's people

11 like this and others -- we have Amanda Marshall,

12 Chantal Kreviazuk -- there's a lot of artists, even

13 locally, Sarah McLachlan and Tara McLean -- that are

14 making big waves around the world right now and really

15 showing the world what Canada can do arts- wise and the

16 kind of music that can come out of this culture that we

17 have here.

18 424 Opportunities should be readily

19 available for these types of artists to show even

20 people within our country what we have here. Radio,

21 again, is one aspect of things but in the past three

22 years I was a little confused as to why there was not a

23 focus on culture, music in this city. It was fortunate

24 that there are some programs through community

25 television that focus on music and lifestyle and that




1 sort of thing. There was a couple shows that are put

2 together by youth, for youth, that show what there is

3 available and what kids are into and pass on these

4 artists and their music to other kids that may be

5 watching.

6 425 We were fortunate about a year ago

7 that Baton had VTV come into town here and they have

8 been amazingly supportive in the way of an avenue for

9 artists and for upcoming bands and singers that want or

10 need this exposure. There's just a wealth of these

11 people that are not exposed to the general public. And

12 they were wonderful enough to have a big focus in their

13 news segment that provided information on what was

14 going on in town and some of the new artists that

15 people could enjoy that are coming to Vancouver or

16 maybe releasing albums or just becoming available.

17 426 Also a national program was one that

18 they provided to showcase artists that were in town and

19 given the opportunity again to show this country what

20 we do have here. They also were good enough to

21 contribute funds for independent programs which are

22 going to be broadcast in the next while to again show a

23 couple artists in the Canadian musical world that

24 really do warrant a good amount of exposure.

25 427 The only reason I'm here really -- I




1 don't want to drag this on or go on about this by any

2 means but I just want to make sure that stations give

3 this opportunity to the arts. I mean not just music

4 but the arts in general, theatre or what have you. If

5 one station can effectively present the arts and

6 cultures so well to this city, why can't they all? It

7 was a frustration for quite a while and it's getting a

8 little better but I'm not sure exactly what actions can

9 be taken by the CRTC but I just think it seems so

10 simple for one station to do it; why is it such a

11 difficulty for them all?

12 428 I was fortunate enough recently to

13 take a bit of a world trip, extended amount of time

14 off, and I thought it was amazing and I took extreme

15 pride in the way the rest of the world sees Canada and

16 everyone seems to love Canada around this world, with

17 the exception sometimes of Quebec, I guess, but it just

18 gave me extreme pride and I would just like to see this

19 sort of avenue become more available for people of a

20 creative nature when it comes down to it.

21 429 Mr. Bear, who spoke earlier, talked

22 about story telling, passing on what we have in the

23 culture to coming generations, and I think that's very

24 much the same sort of thing that can be spoken about

25 with songs, stories and all creative things that make




1 this beautiful country of ours distinctive and can pass

2 on things. A song can live a hundred years after we

3 are all dust. You can still sing a song and if it's a

4 Canadian song and people around the world are singing

5 it, I think we can take a lot of pride in that.

6 430 So that's all I have to say. Thanks

7 for your time.

8 431 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr.

9 Zulinov.

10 432 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: Mr. Zulinov, I

11 noticed Mr. Messenger smiling at your good news story.

12 433 MR. ZULINOV: Yeah. I will support

13 them. They have been wonderful to the community. I

14 can't say I speak for all record companies. I think I

15 do, as most of my friends or my colleagues are at other

16 record companies, and it may seem a little

17 self-serving; we do want this exposure. It is to, in

18 the end, sell our artists and to publicize our artists

19 and market them but, aside from that whole employment

20 aspect of mine, I do think that it is very important to

21 pass on music.

22 434 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: Thank you, Mr.

23 Zulinov, and now Mr. Messenger will have to continue

24 supporting your endeavours. Thank you for coming.

25 435 THE SECRETARY: I would like to




1 invite Mr. Amir Gillni to make his presentation.


3 436 MR. GILLNI: I apologize for this

4 indulgence but I came late to this meeting. Would you

5 kindly introduce me, who is sitting at the head table.

6 437 THE CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry. I am

7 Cindy Grauer, Commissioner for B.C., Yukon, and I'm

8 chairing this meeting, and this is my colleague,

9 Commissioner Andrée Wylie.

10 438 MR. GILLNI: Your Excellencies --

11 probably that's the right phrase.

12 --- Laughter/Rires

13 439 THE CHAIRPERSON: I'm "Your Majesty."

14 --- Laughter/Rires

15 440 MR. GILLNI: The only shortcoming is

16 whether they will be allowed to put the picture on the

17 currency notes or not.

18 441 Ladies and gentlemen, my name is Amir

19 Gillani. I represent a group known as Horizon

20 Interfaith Council. It's a council of about 30

21 religious faiths. In the words of Peter Cousins and

22 some of the senior CRTC officers last year that we

23 visited, they said, "We have yet to see a group of this

24 diversity, this religious variety, sit at a table and

25 co-exist for such a long time."




1 442 We are a group that has existed for

2 the past 20 years. 72 groups have passed and either

3 stayed on the council or lapsed. Our mandate is that

4 we air and co-ordinate programs for each of the faith

5 groups in metro Toronto, so I come a long way from the

6 east. I feel sad that you omitted Toronto from any

7 submissions now in your list. You have had in London,

8 Ontario and other places.

9 1850

10 443 Nonetheless, we are tremendously

11 appreciative of what CRTC has been doing for the past

12 so many years, but of recent we feel slightly

13 threatened. But before I do that, I would like to

14 explain to you the type of programs that our members

15 produce.

16 444 Our members produce programs directed

17 to their faith groups, to the neighbours, for the

18 neighbours, practical realities, no dramatics, no

19 fiction. They service to that community that impacts

20 values. We probably have volunteers that have been

21 servicing for the last 20 years, sometimes devoting 10,

22 15, 18 hours a week.

23 445 Rogers Cable, Shaw Cable, ground

24 cable and all the cables that existed once upon a time

25 were obliged to give us time to produce our programs




1 because of your patronage, your vision, your

2 leadership. Of recent that has been dwindling.

3 446 I'm highly appreciative -- and I

4 would like this officially minuted, probably -- that

5 Rogers Cable has maintained its contribution as far as

6 the production of the programs is concerned, but where

7 we used to have 20 hours of production, it is reduced

8 to a half hour. They do not have the resources. They

9 do not have the manpower. They do not have the

10 facility. That's what they say, and we have seen them

11 dwindling from nine studios two studios.

12 447 I concur every word that you put in

13 that particular direction and to address one of the

14 responses that you made, Madam, Rogers Cable is aware

15 of what we are doing, and highly appreciated, but as

16 long as the amendment was there, conditioning everbody

17 that they had to provide community services, the doors

18 were wide open. Lately we feel slowly we are being

19 removed from one channel to the other. Rogers has

20 maintained us.

21 448 I am appealing to CRTC today in the

22 name of those 30 faith groups that probably represent

23 the most diversified groups as far as race is

24 concerned, as far as ethnic groups are concerned.

25 According to the statistics of 1990, almost a quarter




1 million people immigrate to Canada. These 30 faith

2 groups provide enormous services to teach them about a

3 Canadian style of living within their value parameters.

4 449 We do not have the funding

5 appropriate. Yet funds are available for Canadian

6 content type of productions in millions of dollars. We

7 do not know where to look for if there is any.

8 450 I was very happy you did mention the

9 name of an certain agency. It was so fast, I couldn't

10 note it. But I wish we could go and meet somewhere,

11 some funding to keep us going, administrating our

12 council.

13 451 In a recent 20th anniversary banquet

14 celebration we had messages from the Prime Minister,

15 from Sheila Copps, from so many dignitaries, saying

16 that we were a very unique group. In return, we

17 responded, "Yes, we have got your message. Now, take

18 our messages that we can represent Canada at Bosnia or

19 anywhere with their religious ethnic problems.

20 452 In the light of what we serve and

21 give to the Canadian public or the specific public that

22 we are servicing, we look for a vision from CRTC to

23 give us protection, to give us leadership, to give us

24 some sort of benefit that we can look upon so that we

25 are not diminished completely as the corporate




1 interests get more and more stronger.

2 453 We will be presenting before the end

3 of the month a proper document. I apologize to you.

4 It's been at the last minute that I was informed by my

5 council and I was coincidentally busy, so I made my

6 presence felt today but we will be presenting a proper

7 document and we will look for your advice and guidance

8 into what productions we can do. But if your documents

9 and your regulations do not stipulate any official

10 protection, the corporate public and the sector will

11 probably ignore us.

12 454 Thank you very much.

13 455 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr.

14 Gillni. I have a couple of questions. I, first of

15 all, would like to point out, with respect to your

16 request that something be minuted, all of this will

17 form part of the public record. It's all in the public

18 record, this proceeding.

19 456 With respect to community

20 programming, I just want to make sure I understand.

21 What exactly was the relationship of your organization

22 with the community channel with respect to community

23 access? I'm assuming it was a part of community access

24 programming. Is that it?

25 457 MR. GILLNI: Yes.




1 458 THE CHAIRPERSON: Can you just give

2 me a little history of what it was and what it now is?

3 I'm a little confused about how big a role this played

4 in your organization because of the funding issues you

5 raised.

6 459 MR. GILLNI: Yes. Once upon a time

7 we used to have half an hour of prime time from Monday

8 to Saturday to air our programs. We had facilities

9 available to us from those cable companies to produce

10 our programs and the Horizon Interfaith Council

11 co-ordinated and sat with the other members of the

12 council to create and review and schedule all the

13 programs. We were given those slots as a part of

14 community programming. Then we were diminished to

15 about an hour or two hours on a Sunday day and no more

16 production times were available.

17 460 At this time we feel so frightened

18 because editing time is not available as well. Our

19 programs are not that quality programs as they were

20 once upon a time but at this time also we aspire that

21 we would be able to continue servicing whatever the

22 needs of our communities are by way of those religious

23 inspirational talks that each of the faith groups does

24 give on the cable network.

25 461 THE CHAIRPERSON: So these were done




1 in various communities throughout Canada but you

2 co-ordinated the --

3 462 MR. GILLNI: No, we were strictly

4 metro Toronto.

5 463 THE CHAIRPERSON: Oh, you were

6 strictly metro Toronto. I see.

7 464 MR. GILLNI: Recently Rogers Cable

8 has given us an open window where they would air our

9 programs that they thought were good enough for our

10 Canadian public, that they would play them in their

11 other locations as well.

12 465 THE CHAIRPERSON: I see. Well, thank

13 you very much for taking the opportunity to be here.

14 We'll look forward to getting your submission.

15 466 THE SECRETARY: I invite Michael

16 French to make his presentation now.


18 467 MR. FRENCH: Hello. I, too, just

19 heard of this meeting a short while ago, so, like many

20 of the people today, I came early and perhaps went out

21 quickly and scrawled some notes, so forgive me if

22 there's a scrawl or two I can't read.

23 468 I'm here today to talk about local

24 production and why the CRTC ought to remember that

25 often the greatest opportunity for young people in our




1 business does not come from network or group stations

2 with an appetite for highly-levered international deals

3 but perhaps the greatest opportunity comes from

4 resources that local stations can and do invest in

5 production.

6 469 To best illustrate this point, I want

7 to tell you a story about a young Canadian producer and

8 comedian who in 1990 approached me to help him with an

9 idea he wanted to put on television. I have produced

10 many specials, documentaries, feature film, and over

11 1,000 hours of live variety, but comedy, I just didn't

12 have a track record. So it was with some trepidation

13 that I approached all the usual suspects on a national

14 basis.

15 470 The more I heard that my colleague

16 was just a little too odd and that we were right out of

17 our league, the more we dug in. All the while I kept

18 in touch with Don Brinton, Peter Viner, Jerry Noble,

19 Doug Hoover and Jack Tomik, who at that time were

20 connected to CKVU in Vancouver. And although they did

21 not have the money we needed to do the show in their

22 local budgets, they did spend hour upon hour upon hour

23 helping us figure out how we might pull it off.

24 471 After months of travelling, my Visa

25 card was at the limit and my friend and partner




1 wondered if we could ever pull it off in Canada. Jerry

2 Noble, who is now with Canwest in Australia, took me

3 into his office one day and said, "I'm not sure we

4 should be doing this but I have arranged for a mobile

5 to shoot your show. Then we can bring it back here and

6 we'll find some facilities to help you edit it. Now

7 get out of here and go down the hall to see Jack Tomik,

8 who will teach you a little bit about pulling off

9 something with sponsors and securing some cost

10 promotion."

11 472 From Jack I went to Doug Hoover, who,

12 under the cover of darkness, managed to get the show

13 scheduled on Global.

14 473 Then it was Peter Viner, who smiled

15 and said, "Once you have all the pieces together, come

16 and see me and let's make sure the deal works and that

17 you don't go broke."

18 474 And finally there was Don Brinton,

19 who said, "Congratulations. Now, who is this comedian

20 and is he funny and will anybody watch?"

21 475 Well, Jim Carrey was funny and people

22 did watch, and they watched and they watched over and

23 over again.

24 476 Armed with this very small production

25 commitment and a very large intellectual commitment




1 from CKVU, Jim and I were able to bring in an American

2 broadcaster, who fought us from the first day to the

3 last, saying, "You guys have no idea what you're doing

4 and we can't believe a local station would ever be

5 involved."

6 477 The point here, I trust, is quite

7 straightforward. All of this only happened because a

8 local station took a chance with its production

9 facilities but, more importantly, with its intellectual

10 resources. They stood by us with Jim Carrey and they

11 stand by us today as we complete our 51st national

12 prime time special in the last 10 years.

13 478 All of these programs were and are

14 local specials that we have managed somehow to make on

15 a national prime time basis. It is no easier today

16 than it was when Jim Carrey and I produced our first

17 special. In fact, it is no easier today than it was 25

18 years ago, when I produced my first show. As a

19 producer, I am still at risk with everything I do. I

20 still push my Visa and my nerves to the limit when I

21 chase a dream but knowing that I have a local station

22 in each market helps me make it through. Whether or

23 not they know they are my partners, they are.

24 479 Last summer while shooting a

25 documentary in Saskatchewan, I called upon Global in




1 Saskatoon for help, not as Global but as an independent

2 station whose manager believed in what we were doing.

3 In Calgary, in Edmonton, in Montreal, in Newfoundland

4 local broadcasters have always been there for us,

5 taking our shows, promoting them, and always taking a

6 chance in prime time with something that was Canadian.

7 480 The faces change at local stations

8 and, as Peter, Jerry, Doug and Don have moved on, Jim

9 Rusnak, Don Wright, Janice Talbot, Debbie Miliette and

10 always Jack Tomik are there, willing to help us shape

11 and direct an idea.

12 481 It is not always just about money.

13 Local stations don't have the money to mount national

14 shows. It is instead about the commitment of the

15 people who find a way to bring our show to air.

16 482 Local stations and local programming

17 are at the very heart of everything we do and as the

18 world changes, pushing us to other opportunities and

19 far-away places, it is more important than ever before

20 that a healthy local broadcaster be allowed to exist

21 and, indeed, to flourish because, you see, it is likely

22 that tomorrow or the next day a new producer with a

23 crazy idea will be searching madly for help and going

24 to Toronto or New York or Los Angeles. Without a local

25 broadcaster it makes chasing your dreams and living in




1 the west almost impossible.

2 483 Thank you.

3 484 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I just

4 would like to clarify a bit. Are you suggesting there

5 are things we can do to improve and strengthen the

6 opportunities for local producers or are you saying the

7 status quo is working? Do you have any suggestions for

8 us with respect to --

9 485 MR. FRENCH: I don't have any

10 suggestions for you at all. I guess I can just best

11 speak from our experience, which would indicate that

12 were there not a strong local station here and strong

13 local stations in other places, that the CKVU's and the

14 CFCN's in Calgary and the CFRN's in Edmonton and the

15 CFCF's in Montreal couldn't and wouldn't be there for

16 us and whether they are there because of their good

17 heart or because it is mandated that they ought to be

18 or a combination thereof, regardless of the reason why,

19 in many cases for many people they have been there.

20 486 So I guess it is my experience that

21 without them we would certainly have never been able to

22 have done what we have done and, more importantly, now

23 that we have been kick started a bit and are off and

24 running, you sort of look over your shoulder and see

25 all the bright young people whose ideas are as good or




1 better than yours and you wonder where they are going

2 to go. So without a local station to be able to listen

3 to those ideas and provide some money and a lot of

4 intellectual help, I'm just not sure how they can make

5 it.

6 487 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks very much.

7 488 THE SECRETARY: I would like to

8 invite Doris Rankin to present now, please.


10 489 MS RANKIN: Thank you and good

11 evening.

12 490 It's widely accepted that the

13 influence of media on the populous is overwhelming and

14 powerful and I fully endorse Amy Pollen's presentation

15 and I believe that there exists in the CRTC

16 discrimination and prejudice in granting radio and TV

17 licenses, as evidenced by giving the Playboy Channel a

18 license and refusing Mother Angelica and Her Eternal

19 Word TV not a license, and she certainly has shown that

20 she's a popular person and has lots of would-be viewers

21 in this part of the world.

22 491 I would like to ask the Commission

23 why you give licenses to people and companies who

24 create programs which consistently insult and offend

25 the majority of Canadian citizens. I understand from




1 the last census that Canadians are overwhelmingly

2 believing Christian people. Our country was founded on

3 the Judaeo-Christian values and principles and yet day

4 and night we are treated to radio and TV programs which

5 portray behaviours and use language that is completely

6 contrary to Christian values. I find this very

7 insulting. Because the media shapes our values, I call

8 this propaganda and media manipulation. I object

9 furiously to daily more evidence that a government

10 body, funded by our hard-earned tax dollars, are

11 allowing this. I don't think it's fair or just or

12 impartial nor does it reflect Canadian values.

13 492 Thank you.

14 493 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much

15 for coming here today. We don't have any questions.

16 494 THE SECRETARY: Our next presenter is

17 Clive Court.


19 495 MR. COURT: Thank you very much.

20 Because of the time, I think what I'll do is just cut

21 to my recommendations. I really liked the

22 presentations of Mr. Zulinov and Mr. French.

23 496 My concern is essentially: Do we

24 give licenses to people who dislike working with

25 Canadian entertainers? I'm not sure exactly how many




1 channels we have but when I switch across them I see

2 actually very few Canadian entertainers, and it's a

3 surprise to some Canadians when they travel abroad to

4 find out that we are now better known for our circus

5 than we are for our hockey players. I'm referring here

6 to the quality of presentation that's being produced by

7 our visual entertainers. I think, although some people

8 may feel that we haven't done that much for our musical

9 entertainers, if you think they are hard done by, think

10 about all our visual entertainers, the people who are

11 non-musical.

12 497 Canada has three world champion

13 magicians. Can anyone here name me one? One in

14 particular I was promoting last year -- in fact, I was

15 promoting three on an American variety show called "The

16 World's Greatest Magic Tour," and I found that the

17 station that was carrying it in Ontario did not do any

18 promotion for the Canadian magicians. I found that

19 quite interesting. It actually got -- we managed to

20 get a rating for it that put it at the fifth most

21 watched show of the week.

22 498 So although a lot of programmers will

23 say there's not that much interest in that particular

24 area, there is. In fact, the young people who grew up

25 since 1970 grew up with the work of Jim Henson, George




1 Lucas, David Copperfield, Doug Henning and a number of

2 other very strong visual entertainers, and I would like

3 to see something that would help us develop those

4 entertainers. One in particular I was mentioning I

5 promoted last year. Her name is Juliana Chen. She's a

6 resident of Vancouver. She won the World Championship

7 in Dresden in Germany last July. Immediately following

8 that she was on a U.S. television special. She was on

9 a British TV special and she was on a Japanese TV

10 special. This spring she has been on TV shows in

11 Chile, Argentina and Austria. Last week she was on a

12 TV special in Beijing. Coming up in the fall, she's

13 going to be on specials in Germany and Monte Carlo.

14 499 And all that I say, where are we in

15 Canada? It's not just one, it's quite a number of them

16 that we don't see and we don't know they are there.

17 500 The musical groups and singers can

18 rely to some extent on radio but it's really tough to

19 put a magician on a radio, but I'm not just concerned

20 with the magicians. I'm concerned with the puppeteers,

21 the impressionists, the ventriloquists, the dancers.

22 Boy, was dancing missing until recently, a very

23 effective form of dynamic movement on television, which

24 I think we can see from the ratings that people really

25 enjoy. The trouble is it's expensive to train and




1 rehearse dancers for television.

2 501 In fact, if you look at the kind of

3 entertainment we have when we have what I would call

4 variety entertainers, you will see that basically they

5 stand by microphones and the reason for that is, of

6 course, you don't have to spend too much in rehearsal

7 or production values. But that gets a little boring.

8 502 So let me cut to what my

9 recommendations are in terms of answering the questions

10 that were put forward by the CRTC in terms of how can

11 we produce better programs, how can we get private

12 stations to show them, how can we get people to watch

13 them and how can we get them exported around the world.

14 503 These are essentially -- the answers

15 to these can be found in the way we started

16 broadcasting initially. We gave licenses and, in my

17 opinion, to people who didn't like working with

18 Canadian entertainers. The original philosophy, I

19 think emphasized by the late John Bassett, was:

20 Canadians will turn to their own channels for news and

21 current affairs and for their entertainment they can

22 watch American channels, not quite in those words but

23 that was some of the philosophy.

24 504 One of the things I have been

25 concerned about is Telefilm, which seems to be a little




1 bit of a mess this year. Originally we had a variety

2 category and that has been very much abused. For over

3 15 years the variety category has not been used that

4 well to develop Canadian entertainers. I would

5 recommend that it needs a complete overhaul in terms of

6 objectives, values and procedures.

7 505 I would also like to offer a very

8 relatively simple solution, so simple maybe that it

9 could work. In future when the CRTC issues or renews a

10 TV license, I would like to recommend that the Chair or

11 president must make a public commitment, really like an

12 oath of office, to broadcast Canadian programming from

13 5:00 p.m. to midnight or whatever is the particular

14 requirement, or to surrender their license on demand.

15 They should be called upon to make the Canadian

16 commitment on Canada Day to a public audience and the

17 videotape of this commitment would be played once a day

18 on the station just prior to the playing of the

19 national anthem.

20 506 We want them to be really proud to be

21 a Canadian broadcast license holder and fully

22 accountable to the Canadian people and not just a

23 signature on a CRTC document.

24 507 The surrendered license can then be

25 awarded to another applicant who is prepared to make




1 and keep the Canadian commitment. If they want to run

2 American programs in prime time, Canadian broadcasters

3 can find a station in the United States just like

4 Rupert Murdoch, who was never really known for

5 producing much Australian programming.

6 508 If all the TV license holders are

7 broadcasting Canadian programs in prime time, they will

8 be obliged to produce more competitive and attractive

9 programs to appeal to Canadian viewers. And the most

10 cost-effective way to do this is by developing Canadian

11 entertainers in variety-style formats, which cost about

12 30 to 50 percent less than drama or situation comedy.

13 They will also learn to recruit some of those Canadian

14 performers, writers, directors now working in the

15 United States or Britain.

16 509 Finally, I would ask you to look

17 closely at the make-up of boards of directors for

18 stations and networks. I believe you will find

19 something missing, and that's people with a show

20 business background. I think it's time to insist that

21 boards include a few people who have had career

22 experience as performers, writers, directors or

23 producers in the television medium and not just

24 journalistic experience.

25 510 Thank you very much.




1 511 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very

2 much. You have given us quite a significant written

3 piece, which will be part of the public record. So I

4 thank you very much for being here.

5 512 MR. COURT: Thank you.

6 513 THE SECRETARY: Would Klodyne Rodney

7 make her presentation now, please.


9 514 MS RODNEY: I'm caught by surprise.

10 Thank you for your patience and endurance. I'll be

11 really fast. I flipped through the "Georgia Strait"

12 and found that you were holding consultations today and

13 I thought I cannot miss this opportunity to make sure

14 that my voice is heard.

15 515 My parents came here from Guiana,

16 South America back in the '60s and somebody said to

17 them in some immigration office, "Go to Alberta." I

18 don't know why. I was the product of their union, the

19 first person to be born outside of Guiana on either

20 side of their family in generations and generations,

21 and I'm really proud to be a Canadian.

22 516 One day I heard from a local cable

23 company that they were planning to put together a

24 program that was aimed at diversity. They were going

25 to have young hosts, they were going to be of all




1 colours, they were going to be of all political

2 stripes, of all religious backgrounds, of all sexual

3 orientations, and I couldn't resist the opportunity to

4 have my voice heard. My parents travelled a long way.

5 It's a voice that can't be squandered.

6 517 The initial impact was fantastic.

7 The hosts had lots and lots of influence over what was

8 going to be programmed, the audience were allowed to

9 call in and let the station know what they wanted to be

10 seen. It was a celebration of the community, it was

11 something that supported the community, and it was an

12 exploration of diversity. It was really exciting, and

13 during that entire process it meant that individuals

14 who had businesses or hobbies, that were artists of

15 whatever kind, had an opportunity to have their voices

16 heard within their community.

17 518 One day there was a review and some

18 muckymuck from high up said, "Well, we're not certain

19 that this is professional enough." They did a review

20 and they decided that it was non-conforming, that it

21 was too young, that it took too many risks, that it was

22 too outspoken and ultimately I think the decision was

23 that it wasn't banal enough.

24 519 So in the end what occurred was a

25 television program that was white, straight, and




1 religious right. There was no diversity. There was no

2 community, at least not the community that I lived in.

3 520 In addition to that, the station went

4 on to put ads on their station that talked about their

5 target reach being people between 40 and $60,000 a

6 year. And it scared me because that's not the

7 community I live in, and certainly if I look at Stats

8 Can, it says that 64 percent of people in 1996 made

9 $26,000 or less. That's not the community that I live

10 in that's 40,000 to 60,000, not at all.

11 521 The bottom line being that community

12 TV to a great extent is programmed and represents a

13 corporate large-scale social kind of view rather than a

14 view that is diverse and accurately representative of

15 community. That concerns me. And it extends not only

16 into the type of programming that is allowed to occur

17 but also into its prime time viewing.

18 522 As a person from another province,

19 I'm impressed when I do sit in my living room and I

20 surf the channels and I find programming that is so

21 diverse sometimes that it doesn't even include

22 subtitles. I love that. Perhaps that's something

23 that's unique to British Columbia. I suspect that it's

24 not but I find it exciting. I think it's bold and I

25 really, really like it.




1 523 As a black person, I'm distressed to

2 see the lack of representation of my face, whether

3 that's in a corporate or a community sense. If I want

4 to find myself, I have to surf the channels all the way

5 up to number 58, which is full of infomercials and

6 American stereotypes that mean nothing to my reality,

7 nothing to the Canada that I live in. I have to go in

8 search of American-based programming where there are

9 few representations outside of tokenism.

10 524 Unfortunately, this is a state that

11 extends also to Canadian productions and the CBC. It

12 surprises me and yet it doesn't. We live in a world

13 with a much more global focus and, as such, it means

14 that it requires a broad-based approach to what seems

15 to work. This means that our artists move. They move

16 southeast, they move southwest, they move to the coasts

17 of our cities and they work on American programming.

18 1920

19 525 There is an old joke out there right

20 now that talks about how if O.J. Simpson really wanted

21 to remain anonymous, if he really didn't want to be

22 caught, he should have worked his way across the border

23 to Canada and worked in television.

24 526 We don't respect our idols, we don't

25 support our idols. This is not good, this will not




1 work and this cannot continue.

2 527 I wish I could say that this was a

3 state that existed only in television but it doesn't.

4 It also extends into radio and while our musicians take

5 the world by storm, our radio stations complain that

6 there isn't enough Canadian talent, that it isn't good

7 enough and if they program it, people will switch the

8 dial, and this also cannot be allowed to continue.

9 528 I don't know if you know what Hundred

10 Monkey Syndrome is but once upon a time a bunch of

11 scientists that were working on an island with some

12 monkeys one day noticed that one of the monkeys was

13 washing its coconut in the water to remove the sand.

14 Slowly this news spread throughout the community of

15 monkeys that were on this island. One day the

16 scientist was communicating with another scientist on

17 another island who pointed out to his colleague, "Hey,

18 I just noticed this week that all the colony of monkeys

19 on my island have begun washing their coconuts in

20 water."

21 529 The idea here is that if an idea has

22 enough strength from its community, it can spread like

23 wildfire, and one only has to look at the environmental

24 movement to see this. If we support things at a

25 community level, it works, it spreads. We can do it,




1 and forums like this one prove that there is interest

2 and that it's something that should be addressed.

3 530 Thank you.

4 531 THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, thank you

5 very much. I appreciate that you took the time to be

6 here today. Your comments, as well everybody else's,

7 will form part of the public record, so I very much

8 appreciate it. I don't have any questions of

9 clarification.

10 532 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: Just one. The

11 programming that you were involved in producing, was

12 that for airing on the community channel?

13 533 MS RODNEY: Yes. It was part of the

14 station's community mandate. It was actually very

15 exciting because it was -- well, it was almost 24 hours

16 a day. It ran from 10:00 to midnight.

17 534 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: On the cable

18 company?

19 535 MS RODNEY: Yes, and it was good

20 programming. As I said, unfortunately, they bowed to a

21 common denominator. They bowed to a corporate interest

22 and they bowed to something that wasn't community and

23 ultimately what that meant was that all the singers

24 that we brought on didn't get heard, the dancers that

25 we brought on didn't get heard, the young people that




1 were producing plays at the university level or the

2 college level, they didn't get to be interviewed, their

3 voices didn't get to be heard, the sculptors didn't get

4 a chance to have their works viewed, the visual artists

5 didn't get to talk about their gallery show any more.

6 536 The only way that we can continue to

7 support our artists so they are not going south -- I

8 don't know, Michael J. Fox is Canadian. Okay, I'm not

9 proud of William Shatner, but they are Canadians, they

10 are Canadians. I'm tired of them being appropriated by

11 America, and we need to have strong radio and

12 television and we need to start being proud of our

13 artists so we can do that.

14 537 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: Thank you, Ms

15 Rodney.

16 538 Thank you, Madam Chair.

17 539 THE SECRETARY: I would ask Kevin

18 Millsip to present next on behalf of the Council of

19 Canadians, Vancouver Westside Chapter.


21 540 MR. MILLSIP: Thank you. I have a

22 very brief statement by Jezrah Hearne, who is the Chair

23 of the Vancouver Westside Chapter of the Council of

24 Canadians. She could not be here this evening, so she

25 asked me to present it for her.




1 541 On behalf of the Westside Chapter of

2 the Council of Canadians, I would like to address the

3 upcoming CRTC review of Canadian television this fall.

4 I know that it would be the concern of this chapter

5 that the CRTC do everything it can to strengthen

6 Canadian content in Canadian television. At present

7 "cancon" is very weak in our nation and certainly not

8 salient enough to put in much of a choice for viewers

9 in the era of satellite transmission.

10 542 It might be a surprise to CRTC

11 regulators but there are many Canadians out there who

12 actually want more "cancon" to choose from. An

13 overview of the selection in prime time shows a

14 plethora of American programming, much of which has

15 nothing to commend itself, is repetitious, formulaic,

16 lacking in surprise and lacking depth. The main good

17 thing about Hollywood fare is its good production

18 values.

19 543 By contrast, the Canadian programming

20 often offers depth of drama, originality, and equally

21 good production values. Some Canadian programming even

22 reveals its Canadian identity and gets away with it.

23 The only problem is that there is so little of it.

24 544 So the CRTC should be assuring that

25 more Canadian programming gets on the box and at a




1 timely occasion, i.e., in the prime time. This would

2 be programming in drama and news. The CRTC should be

3 recommending that the federal government should use

4 part of its bonus windfall for increasing funding to

5 CBC television. This is the morally correct thing to

6 do and the government should be told so. Broadcasters

7 should put in the extra effort to show Canadians to

8 themselves by transmitting news and information from

9 across the country into the news and information

10 venues. It might surprise you to know this but many

11 Canadians in one part of the country would like to know

12 about Canadians in other parts of the country but this

13 is not reflected very much at present. Please let it

14 be so.

15 545 "Thank you for your attention, Jezrah

16 Hearne."

17 546 I would just add a couple of comments

18 briefly on my own. I work with youth from across the

19 country. We travel across the country and live and

20 work in small groups together and small communities

21 throughout British Columbia and Yukon region. And

22 something that I have noticed working with them in the

23 past year and a half is that they all have a very

24 strong desire to learn more about Canada, this country

25 they call home, and more about each other and the small




1 places within Canada. They have an understanding that

2 they belong to a country with some very unique and

3 special societal arrangements but they don't really

4 know what those are. They have a vague idea that they

5 belong to a potentially dynamic and, more perhaps,

6 thoroughly beautiful country. They don't have a

7 thorough idea of how to be a part of a functioning and

8 healthy democratic society.

9 547 My brief thought would be that the

10 idea of what I heard you talking about earlier about

11 this community-based programming is something that they

12 are all hungry for. They know that what's being pushed

13 out by the Hollywood juggernaut is not doing them much

14 intellectual good. They want something that is

15 entertaining that would fulfill perhaps their minds and

16 their soles and they would really like it to come from

17 their own nation.

18 548 That is my brief and unprepared

19 thought, and I'll leave you now.

20 549 THE CHAIRPERSON: I wonder if you

21 could just elaborate a bit on or clarify, perhaps is

22 the better way to put it, your earlier comments with

23 respect to the diversity of news programming. I think

24 you talked about reflecting Canada to Canadians and

25 that there were inadequacies. Can you perhaps just --




1 550 MR. MILLSIP: Again, I must make some

2 assumptions about what Mrs. Hearne wanted to say. I

3 think that could come from a couple of areas of her --

4 I find myself, as a consumer of news, that the only

5 thorough news that I can get my hands upon that I

6 consider relatively untainted is perhaps on radio,

7 perhaps on CBC Radio, if it's not from a very small

8 publication, and I think what she may be talking about

9 is more thorough news programming, perhaps on a private

10 station, not just the CBC television station, that

11 covers issues more in depth than they are covered now.

12 551 This is an assumption of what Mrs.

13 Hearne might want to say.

14 552 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Thanks very

15 much. We appreciate it.

16 553 I think we are going to take a short

17 break -- 15 minutes. Be back here about 10 to 8:00.

18 --- Recessed at 1937/Suspension à 1937

19 --- Resumed at 2000/Reprise à 2000

20 554 THE CHAIRPERSON: When you are ready,

21 Madam.

22 555 THE SECRETARY: Our next presenter

23 this evening is Hanson Lau.

24 556 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good evening.






2 557 MR. LAU: Commissioners, my name is

3 Hanson Lau. I have been a broadcaster for 25 years in

4 Vancouver, I live in West Vancouver, and I just want to

5 talk about three very simple points.

6 558 I read the brief and it's very

7 comprehensive and there are many issues at stake for

8 the future of Canadian television but tonight I just

9 want to touch on these three points, which I hope the

10 Commission will be concerned and take time to look into

11 it.

12 559 The first point being the Internet.

13 Right now there's a school that says that the Internet

14 is here and it's not here, especially with regards to

15 the television. Technology is here to bring

16 conventional TV on to the Internet in the foreseeable

17 future. Many say this will happen in five, 10 years

18 time but I see it more in about three to five years, so

19 it's coming. The conventional TV as we know it now on

20 the box as separate from the Internet may be fused and

21 developed in a time frame faster than we think. I

22 think the CRTC should be ahead of them rather than

23 trying to catch up with them, the reason being the

24 Internet is a medium that's out of the regulation of

25 the CRTC for the time being and even internationally




1 there's no regulatory agency as such and when the

2 conventional television content goes on the Internet it

3 will just go world-wide.

4 560 The basic question: How do we

5 distinguish what is Canadian on the Internet? We worry

6 very much about the influence of the United States on

7 our conventional TV as we know it now, but with

8 Internet I think we would be just swamped.

9 561 The other thing is the structure to

10 encourage Canadian program productions. The way we

11 have it now is the television industry right now is a

12 highly-structured and regulated industry and we can ask

13 the television stations to have benefit packages, to

14 have programming budgets that address certain lack of

15 Canadian program production, but when it goes on the TV

16 how do we do that?

17 562 Those are the questions I want to

18 raise with the CRTC. I'm sure you are aware of that

19 and under this presentation I want to again

20 re-emphasize the technology going faster than our

21 system.

22 563 The second point I want to make is

23 that Canada is faced with ever changing demographics.

24 Our population is changing, the composition is

25 changing. The future of Canadian TV must reflect this




1 reality in its programming and productions and not only

2 in specialty channels, as we see it now being shunted

3 into different channels, but in the mainstream

4 television stations as we look down again five, 10

5 years time. We feel that the mainstream television

6 should be taking bold steps to meet this challenge.

7 564 And point 3 -- I'll try to make it

8 very brief and to the point. A concrete example of a

9 mainstream television station taking on this challenge

10 is VTV and our own radio station, working to create a

11 sort of creative alliance. The alliance is executed by

12 encouraging viewers who may not be conversant in

13 English to watch Channel 9 news at 6:00, turn down the

14 sound volume and listen to radio AM1320. This way the

15 radio doesn't lose any audience and the television

16 station increases the viewers but then the content of

17 the newscast is brought directly to the ethnic

18 community, thereby bringing the two communities closely

19 together because we tend to do our own production with

20 an ethnic point of view and, by working with VTV, we

21 bring the two -- how do I put that -- the two

22 programming, the two worlds, into one.

23 565 Also, VTV has, since their launch,

24 taken steps to recruit ethic reporters and so forth,

25 which gives us a lot of encouragement, and I feel this




1 is going in the right direction and it may very well be

2 setting an example for other stations to follow.

3 566 That's all the three points.

4 567 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Wylie.

5 568 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: With regard to

6 your first point, I don't know if you are aware that

7 the Commission is also curious about the development of

8 new media and the Internet and it will be holding a

9 proceeding in the fall of this year, so we would love

10 to hear from you if you make contact with the Vancouver

11 office. I don't think an exact date has been chosen

12 yet but to see what role, if any, the Commission may

13 have or what is developing and what are the concerns

14 and to hear from interested parties about this

15 developing medium. So it would be a good opportunity

16 for you to expand.

17 569 MR. LAU: I definitely would like to

18 be kept informed and if you don't mind putting me on

19 the mailing list.

20 570 Also, I must compliment the CRTC on

21 this report card. It gives a new approach in bringing

22 the community to the CRTC.

23 571 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: Thank you very

24 much. Good news, we need. Thank you.

25 572 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Lau.




1 573 THE SECRETARY: I am now going to

2 read four names on to the record and if any of these

3 people are in the room, I would invite them to make a

4 presentation. I suspect they aren't but we'll read

5 them for the record in any event.

6 574 Gary Marcuse, Cindy Silver, Maruba

7 Carova and Gordon Simon.

8 575 No responses, Madam Chair.

9 576 The other question I would like to

10 ask is: Is there anyone in the room who has not made a

11 presentation and has decided they would like to make

12 one?

13 577 I don't see anyone who wants to do

14 that, either.

15 578 THE CHAIRPERSON: Is there any reason

16 to believe that any of these people may be arriving?

17 They were certainly told the time and the place and --

18 579 THE SECRETARY: Right. These four

19 individuals knew the time and the place and we haven't

20 heard that they are not coming but we don't know.

21 580 THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, I think that

22 since we are finished and everyone is finished, that

23 this is probably as good an opportunity as any to wrap

24 up the evening's proceedings.

25 581 I would like to thank all of you for




1 being here today. I would like to thank, of course,

2 the CRTC staff from the regional office as well as

3 those that are here from Ottawa. My colleague,

4 Commissioner Wylie. To the transcriber and the

5 technician, thank you.

6 582 I would just like to say that this is

7 all going to be very helpful to have a full public

8 record from this Vancouver Town Hall to add to the

9 material for the hearing in September and I thank

10 everybody. Thank you.

11 --- Whereupon the hearing concluded at 2005/

12 L'audience se termine à 2005


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