Transcript, Hearing 20 April 2023

Attendees and Location

Held at:

Kwanlin Dün Cultural Centre
Whitehorse, Yukon

Attendees:

• Chairperson: Vicky Eatrides
• Members: Adam Scott, Vice-Chairperson, Telecommunications
  Claire Anderson, Commissioner, British Columbia and Yukon
  Nirmala Naidoo, Commissioner, Alberta and the Northwest Territories
  Ellen Desmond, Commissioner, Atlantic Region and Nunavut
  
• Legal Counsel: Alexander Ly
  Michel Hogan
  Stephanie Willsey
• Secretary: Dale Moore
• Hearing Managers: Celia Millay
  Nicolas Gatto

Table of Contents

2506 Kluane First Nation

2653 TELUS Communications Inc.

2883 National Indigenous Economic Development Board

3020 Rob Hopkins

3138 Yukon Utilities Consumers' Group

3232 IRP Consulting

Undertakings

2559 Undertaking

2581 Undertaking

2605 Undertaking

2643 Undertaking

2975 Undertaking

Transcript

Whitehorse, Yukon
20 April 2023
Opening of Hearing at 8:59 a.m.

Whitehorse, Yukon

--- Upon commencing on Thursday, April 20^th, 2023 at 8:59 a.m.

2499 MS. MOORE: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to day four of the hearing. Over to you, Madam Chairperson, for your opening remarks.

2500 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks very much.

2501 Good morning, everybody. Very nice to see all the people here in the room, and I know that many are joining us virtually.

2502 I would like to begin by acknowledging that we are gathered today on the traditional territory of the Kwanlin Dün First Nation and the Ta'an Kwäch'än Council. Let's thank them and recognize them for their historic and current connection to Whitehorse.

2503 Alors, bienvenue à la quatrième journée de notre audience. Maintenant, j'aimerais passer la parole à notre secrétaire d'audience, Dale Moore. Merci.

2504 MS. MOORE: Merci, Madam la présidente.

2505 So we will begin with your presentation. Please introduce yourself, and you have 15 minutes for your presentation. Thank you.

Presentation

2506 MR. FORD: Good morning. I'd like to begin by introducing myself traditionally.

2507 [Speaking Indigenous language]

2508 Hello, everyone. How are you? My Tlingit name is Straightforward Honest Wolf, but many people also know me as Colesen. I'm from Burwash Landing, Yukon, and a Kluane First Nation citizen.

2509 And I was just saying that my mother is Tosh Southwick, my grandmother is Grace Southwick and my great-grandmother is Babe Southwick. In Yukon, I've always been taught to traditionally introduce myself going back to three generations on my maternal side to develop connections and relationships that maybe I don't understand but other people in the room may be able to help me form. Thank you.

2510 And with me today I have Chief Robert Dickson, Lisa Badenhorst, and Frank Andersen.

2511 My official role at Kluane First Nation is the Youth Councillor. Though I'm often called upon to help with other issues, today my government has asked that I speak to you all and share a little bit about where we're coming from and where we would like to go.

2512 Kluane First Nation, our people. The Lhù'ààn Ma^n Ku Dan´, Kluane First Nation people, have lived in the southwestern corner of what is now called Yukon Territory for over 10,000 years. The Kluane First Nation final agreement and self-government agreements were signed by the Kluane First Nation, the Government of Canada and the Government of Yukon at Burwash Landing on October 8th, 2003.

2513 The final agreement is constitutionally protected and covers the occupation, ownership and management of settlement land, land use planning, heritage, fish and wildlife, forest resources, non-renewable resources, financial compensation, taxation, as well as economic development measures.

2514 The Kluane First Nation self-government agreement defines Kluane First Nation self-government powers, including law-making, taxation, and program and service delivery.

2515 KFN's modern treaty came into effect February 2^nd, 2004. Canada and Yukon are the other parties to the Kluane First Nation agreements which define the rights and obligations of each of those governments to Kluane First Nation.

2516 Our territory. The Kluane First Nation is a self-governing Yukon First Nation in the southwestern corner of what is today known as Yukon. The shores of Kluane Lake to the far reaches of the St. Elias mountain range and the Ruby mountain ran is Asi Keyi, "My Grandfather's Country".

2517 The Kluane Lake area is the traditional territory of the Lhù'ààn Ma^n Ku Dan´, the Kluane Lake people. Our primary settlement is of Burwash Landing, which is located some 225 kilometres from Whitehorse where we are today.

2518 Our priorities. It is Kluane First Nation's vision to create a healthy, happy and economically stable community, a community where families work together to help each other and help share our culture with our children and future generations. To achieve this, our mission is to build political and administrative systems of governance that respect and value our past, still participating in modern governance structures. Excellent telecommunication capacities are critical to realizing this vision.

2519 So what do we need? Kluane First Nation needs reliable, fast connectivity comparable to that available in southern Canada to ensure smooth operations. In these days of Zoom, it is difficult to carry out work if your Zoom call keeps dropping. With advances in technology come new opportunities for the KFN government to connect with its citizens.

2520 Many technology services today are access via the internet. Gone are the days of Microsoft Word sitting on your computer's hard drive. The MS Office suite, work files, security services, email -- they're all in the cloud. To access these services requires bandwidth and speeds similar to that available in non-remote parts of Canada. To not have similar services available in our remote areas penalizes them.

2521 Not only does Kluane First Nation have problems accessing these services, but recently KFN was not able to carry out our community engagement in a manner similar to others due to reduced connection and bandwidth. Specifically, Kluane First Nation was not able to post video files of the engagement for those unable to attend.

2522 The lack of internet capacity also means it is difficult for staff to work outside of the KFN offices. In these days of telecommuting, it is difficult for KFN staff to work from home and access resources while living in other regions. Working from home is difficult due to the impacts outlined above specifically on the use of programs such as Microsoft Outlook and Zoom.

2523 Since the current common practices and technologies are difficult to use, using these technologies that have greater bandwidth requirements is often times impossible. This limits KFN's ability to access new innovations and for KFN to innovate itself.

2524 From the perspective of our citizens, not only does substandard telecommunications limit their connection with and participation in KFN government, but it also holds back their ability to fully participate in all economic, educational and social opportunities that are available elsewhere in Canada.

2525 So what we get. Small Yukon communities such as ours are on the wrong side of the digital divide. Better, cheaper and more reliable access to high-speed services are available to Northwestel customers in major centres or Canadians in southern areas, more than what are available to us. The problem is compounded by gaps in capacity and digital literacy.

2526 Kluane First Nation has experienced repeated interruptions and low-quality performance of Northwestel's internet access service, which have markedly impaired our function of our government and our operations, impacting the daily lives of our citizens and businesses. This impacts KFN's ability to use the same technical services that others in Canada take for granted such as cloud computing, video meeting technology, and monitoring Kluane First Nation network in addition to other technologies that all require fast internet speeds and lots of bandwidth. Kluane First Nation staff often experience being disconnected from Zoom meetings.

2527 In 2021, Kluane First Nation citizens could not approve our annual audit because the auditor could not connect properly to the Zoom link at our General Assembly meeting. There was a significant delay of video and audio. It was of KFN staff's opinion that there was not enough internet bandwidth available for the virtual attendees of the general assembly and the people in the room to use the internet. Ultimately, KFN had to ask people and citizens in the room to stop using the internet. This is not an acceptable solution, and this is just one example of many.

2528 Provisioning of services in our community is painfully slow. In July 2020, Kluane First Nation signed an agreement with Northwestel to connect the new Alaska fibre to the KFN main administration building, which is only less than half a kilometre away. Twenty-eight (28) months after the installation of the fibre line along the highway through Burwash, the Kluane First Nation was able to access the increased bandwidth and speeds provided by this fibre infrastructure.

2529 Our path forward. Kluane First Nation and other Yukon First Nations must have access to competitive choices of telecommunication service providers to ensure comparable treatment with the rest of Canada. Reliable, high-quality access to broadband services is essential to the ability of residents and small businesses in communities like ours to fully participate in social, commercial, educational, and often lifetime saving capabilities that are available through connectivity and would otherwise not be available.

2530 Allowing Yukon and other northern users the chance to have a legitimate competition choice in service providers would be consistent with all aspects of the Canadian Telecommunications Policy and would provide individuals and communities in the north with comparable treatment with telecommunication users everywhere else in the country.

2531 KFN believes that enabling competition in Northwestel territory will benefit households and businesses and will offer opportunities to Yukon First Nations to build skills, capacity and increased employment, taking advantage of these economic opportunities. In the absence of market-driven incentives being available, Kluane First Nation asks that the CRTC exercise its authority to improve the quality and reliability of our current telecommunications services and to adopt measures that ensure we will not fall behind other communities in Yukon or throughout Canada.

2532 The CRTC standards for affordability should ensure that Kluane First Nation households and small businesses get comparable quality and reliability at prices comparable to southern users for internet services. Where the costs of telecommunications services including internet, landline, cell phones reach levels that are beyond the means of Kluane First Nation citizens and others to afford, the CRTC should act to ensure that access to critical communications is available for all.

2533 Reconciliation. The inclusion of reconciliation with Indigenous peoples as part of this case is very welcomed and an unprecedented opportunity by the CRTC. It is our hope that we will be able to share with the Commission not only our views in the full spirit of reconciliation, but will also continue to meet the obligations of an agency of the Crown in further conduct of this proceeding and in future policies, actions and decisions which affect the interests of Indigenous peoples.

2534 The responsibility of the CRTC in reconciliation must also include exercising its regulatory jurisdiction and its leadership to ensure that the entities which it oversees also respect and adopt the principles of reconciliation and act according to these principles.

2535 Economic reconciliation is an especially important aspect of the reconciliation obligations because it provides the means to address future growth and prosperity and redress past injustices.

2536 KFN requests that the Commission actively consider when economic reconciliation might be fostered through investment, funding, strengthened capacity or any other opportunity relating to a decision or policy determination. This must also include a specific emphasis on economic reconciliation opportunities beyond the macro level. Capacity-building through education, training and development support is likewise essential.

2537 To conclude, the CRTC must actively engage in reconciliation and implement measures that ensure the CRTC and telecom service providers such as Northwestel perform consistent with obligations flowing from the Kluane First Nation final and self-government agreements, legislation such as the United Nations Declaration of the Rights of Indigenous Peoples and political messages from the Prime Minister such as his assertion that no relationship is more important to Canada than the relationship with its Indigenous peoples and that KFN expectations flow from these obligations. In the absence of any competitive choice, CRTC must ensure that our needs more affordability, high quality and reliable telecommunications services are met.

2538 Kluane First Nation appreciates this opportunity to engage with the CRTC as a representative of the Crown on these matters and look forward to a continued dialogue in the spirit of reconciliation. Thank you.

2539 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Thank you for participating in our proceeding and for being here with us today.

2540 Thank you as well for outlining with such energy how we as the telecommunications regulator may be able to play a role in your goal of a healthy, happy and economically stable Kluane First Nation community. So thank you for that.

2541 I will turn things over to my colleague, Commissioner Anderson, to kick off the questioning for the CRTC. Thank you.

2542 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Hello, and thank you for coming to our proceeding. I'm really grateful to see you here today and in particular to community members that have travelled to Whitehorse to participate at this hearing.

2543 I'm Claire Anderson. I'm the Commissioner for B.C. and Yukon, I'm Taku River Tlingit and I'm from the Crow Moiety. So I just wanted to say thank you and introduce myself.

2544 We have been exploring several different areas. I'm going to list the different areas, there's five of them, and I'm going to ask which you'd like me to focus the questioning on and whether or not you'd like to speak to all five areas because if you don't want to speak to all five areas, I'd rather focus more of the discussion, so any input you have on how this questioning period should go would be really appreciated and then I can tailor my questions accordingly.

2545 We've been talking about achieving affordability through subsidies. We've been talking about increasing competition in the north and potentially lowering barriers for entry to competitors, including Indigenous internet service providers. We've been talking about reconciliation. We've been talking about engagement. And then we have questions about refunds for outages.

2546 So I just wanted to give you a moment to let me know how you'd like to approach our conversation and what are your priorities.

2547 MR. FORD: Thank you for the outline of the questions that the Commission hopes to go over today.

2548 I would like a second to confer with my team here to identify what would be the best use of our time in answering these questions. Thank you.

--- Pause

2549 MR. FORD: Thank you.

2550 It would be our preference, understanding that all of these are important questions, but our focus today would be best spent on points 3, 4 and 5, so omitting the affordability through subsidies and refunds for outages. Thank you.

2551 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: So for certainty, we won't be asking too many questions unless you'd like to answer about outages or unless you'd like to bring it up, and I can then skip over questions relating to subsidies.

2552 Okay. Thank you. That really helps and I'm able to ask questions that are more targeted towards your priorities and I do that recognizing that you're a self-governing nation.

2553 You said a few things in your opening remarks that I wanted to address. And the first thing that I highlighted while you were speaking was that it took 28 months after the installation of fibre along the highway through Burwash Landing before the Kluane First Nation was able to access the increased bandwidth and speeds provided by the fibre.

2554 Can you give a little bit more information on this about the cause of delay or your experience with this delay?

2555 MR. FORD: Thank you for the question. I think it's a very important question. I'll just take a moment to capture my thoughts in regards to this. Thank you.

2556 Due to the complexity of this question, the specific details of the delays, we can get back to you at a later date.

2557 But the premise of what was substantial about this delay was, first of all, how close the highway is to our administration building, so looking to have that connection be hooked up as fast as possible seemed very feasible at the time when discussing how to connect our community to this new infrastructure.

2558 Following the discussions on how we can roll this out, it became apparent that a lot of the infrastructure within our administration and community is not compatible with fibre and we had to go back and work with Northwestel and other businesses and industries in Yukon to understand what solutions may be available to us with the difference in services being offered through internet.

2559 (Engagement)

2560 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Thank you. And I note your comment that you would like to reserve the right to provide further written submissions, so I'm going to ask legal to confirm that I'm able to take an undertaking, and I see nodding.

2561 So we do have an opportunity to ask for undertakings from you to provide written submissions by May 9^th so we can get in touch with you on how to go about doing that with respect to the 28-month delay. So thank you for that.

2562 Another thing that you had mentioned was that it is "our hope that the Commission will not only hear our views in the full spirit of reconciliation but also continue to meet the obligations of an agency of the Crown in the further conduct of this proceeding and in future policies, actions and decisions which affect the rights and interests of Indigenous people".

2563 I was wondering if you could talk about what interests might be affected by this proceeding and the work that the CRTC does in the world of telecommunication.

2564 MR. FORD: Thank you for your question.

2565 Sorry. Would you be able to just repeat the last part of that question again?

2566 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Your hope is that we -- and in your submissions, you say it's not enough to just acknowledge that your rights are affected but that we, as a Commission, have to take proactive steps. And I was wondering if you would mind talking about which rights are affected.

2567 We heard from Ms. Hill from the Na-Cho Nyak Dun that it goes beyond wildlife and fishery rights that stand to be affected, so I was wondering if you had any thoughts to share for the benefit of myself and my colleagues on how our decisions can affect your rights and what rights those are.

2568 MR. FORD: Thank you for providing clarity on that question.

2569 Yes, I think reconciliation is immensely important. And when we think about what role the CRTC Commission can play in facilitating the role of reconciliation in Yukon, we would like to see a specific focus on engagements and relationship-building. And through our relationships that we develop, we are able to use that as leverage to implement and contextualize the work that we do as it relates to our self-government agreements and our self-determining capacity as Indigenous people.

2570 What we're looking for the Commission to do is help facilitate a profound, long-term sustainable relationship between Kluane First Nation and telecommunication companies in Yukon. Thank you.

2571 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Thank you very much.

2572 And in terms of helping facilitate further engagement with service providers, do you have any suggestions on how we can help facilitate that? How do we help facilitate the relationship that you have with service providers? Do you have any advice on that or preliminary thoughts?

2573 MR. FORD: Thanks for the follow-up question. I'd like to hand this off over to my colleague, Lisa, for some more detailed response to the question.

2574 MS. BADENHORST: Sorry. I just wanted to add about the rights question that we can also be thinking about land rights and the fact that the agreements lay out the co-management of land within the traditional territory of Kluane First Nation. So when any infrastructure goes through the Kluane First Nation territory, traditional territory, which includes along the Alaska Highway, then there should be proper engagement and consultation with the Kluane First Nation.

2575 And the other set of rights I think you want to keep in mind are the economic development rights.

2576 Ms. Hill talked about Chapter 22 economic development rights and the rights to 25 percent ownership of infrastructure projects, but there's other economic rights in there as well around projects happening in the Kluane First Nation territory.

2577 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Thank you.

2578 So on that note then -- sorry, unless you had more to say on rights, but speaking about economic development, there is a line of questioning that we've been asking about removing barriers to entry for competitors, including Indigenous service providers.

2579 Do you have any thoughts on whether or not we should be lowering barriers to entry for competitors, and in particular for Indigenous service providers, and if so, how do you suggest we go about doing that or what kind of considerations we could -- we should keep in mind?

2580 MR. FORD: Thank you for that question. I think that this is a very important and pivotal question so I would like to suggest an undertaking for this to ensure that we're able -- Kluane First Nation is able to clearly and fully articulate our position as it relates to bringing in more businesses and diversifying the telecommunications sector in Yukon. Thank you.

2581 (Engagement)

2582 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Thank you.

2583 Go ahead, please.

2584 MS. BADENHORST: I also wanted to -- to me, this highlights the interconnectedness of things and the fact that the Kluane First Nation is -- there's 237 citizens in the Kluane First Nation, so to take on and have all of the necessary information is sometimes difficult. So there are other groups that are working on these and one of those groups who is working specifically on developing a First Nation ISP is speaking to you this afternoon. That's IRP Consulting. So I would encourage you to ask similar questions of Ms. Southwick.

2585 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Thank you very much. And I really appreciate you sharing any of the difficulties or challenges that smaller communities or entities may have in regulatory proceedings. It helps inform our organization. So I encourage you to make any other suggestions or comments similar to potential barriers.

2586 MS. BADENHORST: Thanks very much for that opening. Because I think some of the participants in this actual proceeding have suggested having a telecommunications unit within the CRTC, similar to what happens down in the United States. This would be a unit that could help First Nations in dealing with the CRTC. I mean, I think there's been a very steep learning curve in going through this whole proceeding. And it also could provide the CRTC with some background and do some of that knowledge seeking out of what's out there.

2587 Because one of the things that has hit me in this proceeding as somebody who has worked with First Nations for quite at that while now, is that a lot of the questions you're asking have been answered. So, you know, having somebody internally to help facilitate finding those answers could be helpful. I just wanted to say, you know, putting our support behind having a telecommunications unit within the CRTC.

2588 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: So you spoke about the unit serving a role to inform the Commission about First Nation or Indigenous rights, it sounds like, and I see you nodding, just for the record, and people have also spoke about a unit being proactive in engagement. Can you talk a little bit more about the utility of that, or how you think a unit or people within the CRTC whose job is engagement, could you speak about the benefits of having particular staff dedicated towards performing such a function?

2589 MS. BADENHORST: Well, I think -- I mean, it's definitely helpful. There's precedent out there for doing engagement and, you know, like starting -- like, we've heard it, right? Starting early. Providing enough information. Having a maybe less formal conversation with the CRTC about what it is that the First Nations are looking for, keeping in mind that they are individual nations so they're going to have individual -- they're going to have certain, you know, little bit different desires.

2590 But I think -- I want to send this back to Colesen to talk about engagement, because I feel he has some very specific thoughts on that.

2591 MR. FORD: It's okay. That's what a team is for, Lisa.

2592 Yeah, in terms of engagement with Indigenous Peoples, and our communities, and our families, and our kinship networks, it's so important that we have an intentful and an approach that is collective and making sure that we're not leaving anyone behind and that means really walking forward hand in hand. And that means, you know, with internally in our communities, outside of our communities with government and business partners.

2593 And when we talk about what engagement looks like, it's trying to elicit or facilitate the underlying values, and motivations, and vision of a community to come forward. And feel that the ways in which that information or knowledge may be accessed in our community is different than this form of proceeding, and potentially altering proceedings like this to be more in line or more compatible with long-term relationship centered goals in mind is a way to streamline our relationships and the work that we do. Thank you.

2594 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Thank you. Thank you. So we've spoken then about reconciliation and engagement, but I wanted to offer you an opportunity to speak more on these two subjects, if there's anything that you'd like to share with us before moving on to competition?

2595 MR. FORD: Yeah. I think that -- thank you. There is one thing I'd like to reiterate or emphasize, and that is the connection between economic independence and self-sufficiency and reconciliation, and being a committed partner means having all the opportunities to find success in these different ventures and initiatives that we're working with. So I would just like to stress the intimacy and connection of economics and reconciliation and creating a brighter future, not only for Kluane First Nation and Canada, but all signatories of our final agreements. Thank you.

2596 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Thank you very much. Your comments are noted.

2597 I'm going to go to competition then, because I've noted throughout -- because I'm noted throughout your submissions that you've had a particular focus on ensuring that the citizens of your community have equitable service at equitable prices as the rest of Canada. But you also talk about achieving equity by having the same kind of competition that other Canadians currently have the benefit of. So I was wondering if you could speak more about how competition could be a means towards achieving equity?

2598 MR. FORD: Thank you for this question.

2599 What immediately comes to mind in trying to understand or unpack how we can enhance or support the development of infrastructure in our communities in a way that is citizen-focused requires a diverse set of businesses and leaders in our territory to work together for the benefit of the Yukon people and Yukon First Nations People. Having an increased market or competition would allow for a more competitive and potentially holistic approach to providing these services in our community. Whether that is looking at different ways of rolling this out and different options that may be available to our community and having the -- ultimately, having the option for our citizens to engage in their own business ventures with telecommunications is a high priority for Kluane First Nation in supporting the sustainability of our people moving forward. Thank you.

2600 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Thank you. Thanks.

2601 And I note your comment about having community-oriented solutions, and earlier this week we heard from First Mile Connectivity Consortium, which is a group that represents Indigenous internet service providers, and there was a recommendation that community members obtain training so that they can monitor networks in their community, and it was suggested that this might lead to a lower response time when there is an outage.

2602 Can you speak to whether or not you're in support of having that type of initiative in the community, to have community monitoring, both on a regular basis and under exceptional circumstances? Do you think that that would be helpful?

2603 MR. FORD: Thank you for the question. I think I'd like to start by saying that developing in an interdisciplinary way and a diverse way in our community the skill-sets that are required to ensure that we are self-sufficient in every aspect is a high priority for the Kluane First Nation Council. And understanding how we can get to that place, I think it's vital that Kluane First Nation have a little bit of a longer opportunity to undertake this question and get back to you in a written response. Thank you.

2604 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Please. So we would ask for that undertaking as well to be provided by May 9th and, again, that would go back to First Mile Connectivity Consortium's proposal to have community monitoring measures in place with respect to monitoring the network on a regular basis as well as under exceptional circumstances.

2605 (Engagement)

2606 So this question, I guess, I suppose it goes back to engagement, and I'm sorry to flip flop back and forth, but I just realized that another one of the submissions that was made by First Mile Connectivity Consortium was that there ought to be more transparency with service providers and Indigenous communities. And so some of the proposals have been for increased transparency when it comes to outages and providing reasons why there was the outage to try to address those concerns looking forward in a progressive kind of way.

2607 Another discussion about transparency was with when there are network improvements, to get information about network improvements so that Indigenous communities have an idea of what the network is to serve the community. There was discussion about providing financial transparency and operational transparency so that Indigenous communities or Indigenous ISP, internet service providers, are able to make informed decisions about their own operations.

2608 Do you have any suggestions on any kind of measures that can be taken to ensure that service providers are operating in a way that is transparent and how that could be beneficial to you?

2609 MR. FORD: Yes. Thank you for the question.

2610 I'd like to start off by saying that transparency and accountability in relationships are all deeply connected. When we think about the relationship between telecommunication organizations and Kluane First Nation and Yukon, what that transparency would allow Kluane First Nation to do is to be an active and true partner in ensuring that those facilitations and frameworks that need to be in place at the community level to support the rollout of infrastructure development, like elsewhere in Canada is there. And by having that transparency component allows Kluane First Nation to be more active in this space, and potentially allows some of these concerns that have been brought forward throughout the proceeding to be addressed in a more effective and streamlined manner. Thank you.

2611 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Thank you. Oh, sorry. Go ahead.

2612 MS. BADENHORST: You mentioned one area that I think we'd like to see more transparency around and that is network improvements. Having a conversation with the telecom service provider about what is planning on happening -- like we talked about the 28 months that it took in order to get connected to the fibre going by. I think KFN has some real interests in seeing technology improve and understanding what that looks like and don't always get the answers that they're looking for.

2613 I think the other area is engagement, and in some ways, I feel like this started off by a report that was given around engagement with the First Nations, that the First Nations weren't actually able to see. So the telecom service provider provided it to CRTC, it was redacted, there was a little bit of un-redaction of that. But there -- it would have been helpful to have a conversation about that particular report and how it was engagement and how it might not have been engagement. And so having that lack of transparency, not being able to see what was being said to you guys was definitely a barrier, and I think the fact is it fell short, and not having a conversation about how it fell short was also a bit of a barrier.

2614 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Thank you. So you mentioned a report. Do you mean the consultation report, or if you could just elaborate on which report you mean just for clarity?

2615 MS. BADENHORST: The report that was provided in phase one of this proceeding. Yeah, the consultation report.

2616 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Okay. Yes. Thank you. And that was another measure that FNCC had discussed was requiring consultation reports to be made public. In your view, would there be any drawbacks to having consultation reports being made public? Would there be privacy concerns from your point of view?

2617 MS. BADENHORST: I think there's the potential for privacy concerns, so maybe having a chance to review before its being made public would make sense, I mean, yeah. But definitely, I guess to me the point is, if you are going to say something about consultation with a First Nation, you should at least be checking with the First Nation to see that they agree with that report before you're handing it in.

2618 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: That's very helpful. Thank you.

2619 I've also highlighted an area of your written submission that I just wanted to give you an opportunity to expand upon, and it's paragraph 18, I believe, of your second intervention, and in paragraph 18 you state:

"The FMCC intervention recommends that telecom service providers be required to obtain formal consent before installing facilities on First Nations lands. [The] K[luane] F[irst] N[ation] views this as an obligation based in treaties and agreements rather than an element of reconciliation."

2620 Can you speak a little bit about that, please, for the benefit of myself and my colleagues?

2621 MR. FORD: Sorry. I'm just trying to refer to the section here just so I am clear. What is the heading? Is it --

2622 Sorry, not this presentation, my colleague has explained to me.

2623 Sorry, I was trying to find the section 18 in my copy, but I don't have it. Could you please reiterate what you were --

2624 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Sorry. It was in your reply submissions on the third page under the heading "Reconciliation". And it was just a note about -- you supported the view that telecom service providers should be required to obtain formal consent before installing facilities on First Nation land, and that that's not an element of reconciliation but it's an obligation under treaties. I just wanted to give you an opportunity to talk more about that.

2625 MR. FORD: Thank you. Yeah, I'd love to speak a little bit more on that.

2626 In terms of requiring consent and getting support and developing that comprehension and cohesion in the community, Kluane First Nation feels strongly that UNDRIP and OCAP clearly articulate some of these discussions that have been happening for years. And in addition to contextualize these discussions, Kluane First Nation and other Yukon First Nations have been having talks for decades on what we want economic and governance-type supports and protocols and processes in place, and consent is deeply tied to that.

2627 So I would urge the Commission to look to some of those more foundational documents to better understand the spirit and intent of these agreements, to really think about reconciliation more holistically. Thank you.

2628 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Thanks very much. And then further in that paragraph you note that First Mile Connectivity Consortium has recommended that facilities built on First Nation lands and supported by public funds should be accessible to Indigenous providers. And I was wondering if you wanted to speak more on that and whether or not your view is that facilities that are on First Nation lands, supported by public funds, should be accessible to all other providers or just Indigenous service providers?

2629 MS. BADENHORST: This question I think kind of connects a little bit back to your question just a moment ago in connection to, you know, basically FPIC, free, prior, and informed consent. Although it's in UNDRIP, it's also in the treaties, and it's under this idea, the spirit and intent of the treaties, of co-management of the land. So if you're co-managing the land it makes sense that you need the formal consent of the First Nation whose land or traditional territory you're going through. And then there's a whole -- you know, if it's settlement land, that's a whole different -- that I'm not going to get into here.

2630 But it's that co-management of land, and as far as allowing -- so within that conversation I imagine that the question you're asking next about who can access that facility would be part of that conversation about getting the consent. Whether it's First Nations or it's others, I mean, it would probably -- I imagine that First Nations would like to maintain the ability to decide on a case-by-case basis, but we do have -- KFN has been very much for competition.

2631 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Thank you very much. I have no other questions at this time, so I'll turn it back to the Chair.

2632 THE CHAIRPERSON: Great. Thank you very much. I think Commissioner Anderson covered most of our questions, but maybe I can just jump in with two more and then we'll give you an opportunity to add anything at the end.

2633 So one is just really a more detailed follow-up to Commissioner Anderson's questions around what we can do as the telecommunications regulator to ensure that the proper engagement is taking place between service providers and Indigenous communities.

2634 There was some discussion during the proceeding about a best practices guideline, so, you know, putting in place what best practices could look like in terms of engagement. I'm just wondering whether you have any views specifically on guidelines?

2635 MR. FORD: Thank you for the question. I think first and foremost I'd like to start by welcoming you to the traditional territory of Kluane First Nation, if that opportunity ever presents itself. For us, engagement looks like coming to our traditional territory so we can show with you and build that relationship together with the land, the animals, and the people. And having that be in the community, is totally in line with accountability and transparency that we were just discussing, allowing community members and citizens to participate in whatever ways that they feel comfortable at these type of proceedings, would be I think achievable with less barriers had it taken place in Burwash Landing. And Kluane First Nation welcomes the opportunity to have an event of this type in the community in the future. Thank you.

2636 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for the invitation. Did you want to add something as well?

2637 MS. BADENHORST: I think, you know, you ask about engagement, what the CRTC can do to facilitate engagement between the First Nations and telecom service providers. I think the first step is for the CRTC to demonstrate what proper engagement looks like. And some of the things that would help in doing that would be to look back -- I mean, there's lots written on the subject, which is kind of why we were suggesting about the telecom unit in the CRTC.

2638 But, I mean, I think some of the principles for consultation that the CRTC might want to think about is, you know, starting to consult as early as possible; providing clear, detailed information on what is being considered; give First Nations reasonable time to prepare their views and respond; seek to understand their views through meetings and discussions; be open to changing your approach; explain how their views, First Nation views or interests, are considered when decisions are made; limit impacts to Aboriginal and Treaty rights, and discuss compensation if impacts to rights cannot be limited.

2639 So, you know, this is out there, the idea. My suggestions.

2640 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Then my next question and then we'll just turn things back to you, is really around if you have any thoughts in terms of further lines of questioning that we should pursue, whether it's with service providers, other parties in this proceeding. Is there anything that you think we should be focusing on in terms of our questioning over the next couple of days?

2641 MR. FORD: Thank you for ending off this discussion with a more proactive or forward-looking approach to how we can work together to improve these types of things.

2642 To provide an ample opportunity for my team to reflect on this, we would like to take an undertaking on this question and ensure that our comments and feedback reflect and articulate exactly how we would like to see this proceeding be enhanced in the future. Thank you.

2643 (Engagement)

2644 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. I will turn things back over to you if there is anything further you would like to add or share with us. Thank you.

2645 MR. FORD: I'm good, but I'll just pass it off to chief Robert Dickson for some closing comments from Kluane First Nation. Thank you.

2646 CHIEF DICKSON: I just want to say. I'm Chief Bob Dickson. I just want to say thank you for listening to our presentation today and listening to, you know, our views on telecommunication and the -- what we're dealing with in our small communities. And I'll just give you a little bit of why we use people like Colesen for our technical questions. I grew up in a time when there was no phones in Burwash, you know, way before the times of cell phones, internet, and all of that, right?

2647 And I think this is why some of your questions, when you're talking about how can this help our community, it's about bringing our community in line with the rest of the world, and participating, and being full participants in the economic development of the world and how we can use the technology for our advantage. And I just want to say that by being here today and by expressing our views, at least that gives us a chance to let you guys know what we're dealing with in the smaller communities with, you know, the lack of competition, if you want to call it that.

2648 A lot of our Elders don't have internet and we don't have -- they don't have phones, so this is why we're trying to, you know, bring everybody along at the same pace, but also recognize that a lot of our Elders don't have the technical background to fully engage. But we're hoping that with the new technologies that we can use this to our advantage and move forward, and we want to thank you again on behalf of our presenters for listening to us today. Thank you.

2649 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you so much. We're very appreciative and grateful for you sharing your experiences, some of the challenges, and also your optimism with us. So thank you very much for being here with us today. Thank you.

2650 MS. MOORE: Thank you for taking part in the proceeding.

2651 We will take a 10-minute break. So we will be back at 10 o'clock. Thank you.

--- Upon recessing at 9:49 a.m.

--- Upon resuming at 10:03 a.m.

2652 MS. MOORE: Welcome back. So we will proceed with the next presentation. Please present yourself and you have 15 minutes for your presentation. Thank you.

Presentation

2653 MR. SCHMIDT: Thank you.

2654 Good morning, Chairperson Eatrides, Vice Chair Scott, Commissioners Naidoo, Anderson and Desmond. My name is Stephen Schmidt, and I am Vice-President Telecom Policy and Regulatory Affairs at Telus and I have detected that the font is alarmingly small on this document once it's printed it out. I'm nonetheless grateful to be here before you with my colleagues.

2655 Joining me today on this panel are two of my colleagues from Telus, Shazia Sobani, Vice-President Network Planning, and John MacKenzie, Director Regulatory Affairs.

2656 The issues raised in the present proceeding are important and deeply consequential for residents, businesses and governments in the far north. We welcome the opportunity to make constructive contributions to the dialogue and the cost critical issues facing the far north.

2657 We have four points to make today.

2658 First, if you do only one thing in this proceeding, it should be to support facilities-based competition. This will help address many of the other concerns expressed in this proceeding, including reliability, affordability and choice.

2659 Second, in unserved and underserved communities, the Commission should focus on upgrading facilities and services. Should the Commission choose to implement a subsidy to address affordability, we offer some guidance later in these remarks. Both of these initiatives will require thoughtful and efficient use of the Broadband Fund.

2660 Third, interventions by Indigenous governments and businesses in this proceeding indicate a pressing need and opportunity for reform to establish an ongoing dialogue amongst Indigenous peoples, industry, and federal and territorial governments. Telus agrees. The Commission is uniquely positioned to contribute to this effort by using its convening powers to attract those stakeholders and rightsholders into the dialogue.

2661 Fourth, and finally, Telus and Bell Canada have reached an agreement in principle to transfer the assets and operations of Telus in Atlin, B.C. to Northwestel. Customers will be better off because Northwestel can serve this community at a lower cost with higher reliability, shorter repair times, and better outcomes overall.

2662 With that, I will start by explaining our views on competition in the far north.

2663 Commission support for facilities-based competition will address important matters under discussion in this proceeding. The presence of alternative facilities enhances reliability and resiliency as service providers compete on network coverage and network performance.

2664 Affordability will be also enhanced as competitors contain costs and compete on price. Choice will also be enhanced in the most meaningful sense by the presence of alternative facilities. There is no reason for special rules based on the unique circumstances of the far north. The long history of exemptions and special treatment has led to poor outcomes for the people of the north.

2665 MS. MOORE: I'm sorry; your mic is turned off.

2666 MR. SCHMIDT: Interesting.

2667 MS. MOORE: Thank you.

2668 MR. SCHMIDT: Instead, the regulatory framework for competition applicable in the rest of Canada should be applied to Northwestel.

2669 MR. MacKENZIE: The Broadband Fund will play an important role in improving service in communities that are currently unserved or underserved. The Commission should be guided by two primary considerations in allocating the Broadband Fund.

2670 Efficiency. The Commission has acutely limited resources once said against the scale and depth of the challenges in the far north. It cannot fund every project, provider, person or place. It will run out of funds. The Commission's limited Broadband Fund needs to be allocated with efficiency and high impact.

2671 Competitive and technological neutrality. Broadband subsidies need to be available on a competitively and technologically neutral basis. The Commission should not prefer one provider, Northwestel for example, or Starlink, to the exclusion of others, nor should the Commission pick or disqualify particular technologies from the outset. In practice, technological and competitive neutrality will be implemented by allowing any provider and any type of technology to be considered for funding.

2672 There are two types of subsidies: capital subsidies for unserved and underserved community, and operating subsidies to lower monthly charges for a service. Capital subsidies for building or upgrading facilities should prioritize communities with the poorest service, unserved or underserved, taking into account community size and average cost per resident while providing latitude for special considerations, for example, the presence of a hospital or other important services.

2673 Operating subsidies would focus on making monthly charges more affordable. The Broadband Fund already contemplates the use of operating subsidies to reduce operating costs in satellite-dependent communities, but there have been many calls for the Commission to implement an operating subsidy to address affordability.

2674 Our position is that governments are best positioned to address affordability issues through general taxation and social policies, but should the Commission choose to implement such a subsidy, we offer the following guidance.

2675 These operating subsidies should only be for low-income households and should be based on an affordability standard that is objective and verifiable. We suggest that the Commission use an established government low-income threshold.

2676 These subsidies should be placed in the hands of individual consumers, not particular providers. This will support consumer choice and will not distort the market.

2677 The Commission may wish to partner with territorial governments to establish individual eligibility and to distribute funds to end users. Both the capital and operating subsidies discussed above will disproportionately benefit Indigenous communities.

2678 MS. SOBANI: Pre-ordered Commission proceedings like this are very important, but only occurs every five years or so. There is a pressing need in the far north for ongoing and inclusive dialogue among Indigenous governments, territorial and federal government bodies, including the Commission, and ISED in particular, and industry to address the pressing telecommunication challenges in the far north in a manner that advances Indigenous rights.

2679 To enable these outcomes, the Commission can contribute by convening the discussions and maintaining their momentum. Such a dialogue should be supportive of self-determination because Indigenous people should be involved in determining and developing strategies and solutions. It should feature a co-developed approach to engagement, recognize the diversity of interests, cultures, history of Indigenous people communities in Canada, and should be supportive of capacity building for meaningful engagement, including funding, training, and information and knowledge-sharing, which would apply to federal government staff as well.

2680 Telus is committed to advancing reconciliation in partnership with Indigenous peoples in a meaningful way. We are committed to fulfilling our role and responsibilities in alignment with 94 Calls to Action, UNDRIP, and 231 calls for justice.

2681 As we mentioned in our intervention, Telus formalized its commitment to reconciliation and laid out its first ever five-year Indigenous Reconciliation Action Plan, IRAP, in 2021. Guided by engagement with numerous Indigenous leaders, subject matter experts, our Indigenous team members and Elders from across our key service areas Telus' strategy lays out key areas of focus that includes connectivity, cultural responsiveness, and relationship-building, enabling meaningful social outcomes, and economic reconciliation.

2682 Telus IRAP was developed with an emphasize on working together to meet the needs of diversity of Indigenous Peoples in its serving areas. Together with Indigenous communities, Indigenous organizations like the All Nations Trust Company, and all levels of government, this commitment has supported sustained progress in connecting Indigenous communities in Telus' operating territory.

2683 Over 240 Indigenous communities, including First Nation and Metis settlements, are served by Telus. With more than 185 communities and 577 reserves and community and treaty settlement lands connected to our advanced broadband networks. By the end of next year, we expect to expand connectivity to another 140 reserves and treaty lands. Thanks to our partnership with federal and provincial funding bodies for that.

2684 While we believe Telus commitments and our actions represent progress, reconciliation is an ongoing journey. Engagement is a cornerstone of Telus' commitments and actions moving forward, and we recognize the importance of remaining flexible and listening, learning, and adapting. Every community has different goals, needs, and outcomes, and we work with each community that we serve to understand their perspective and seek out mutually agreeable outcomes.

2685 We encourage all service providers operating in Canada to play their role in advancing reconciliation in partnership with Indigenous Peoples and governments. We are confident that with the Commission's leadership, significant progress can be achieved.

2686 MR. MacKENZIE: The communities of High Level, Alberta, Fort St. John, B.C., and Atlin, B.C., are the only communities in the Far North served by Telus as an incumbent. Our ability to serve differs greatly across these communities. Fort St. John and High Level are served by Telus transport facilities. In Fort St. John, Telus offers internet access at the same speeds that are available in our urban areas, such as Vancouver, at the same prices. In High Level Telus currently offers corporate DSL internet service with a maximum speed of 15 megabits per second, but a project to upgrade services is in progress. Telus expects that High Level will also have the same level of service and the same prices as Vancouver by next year.

2687 The exchange of Atlin encompasses the town and the surrounding area, including Taku River Tlingit First Nation. In contrast with Fort St. John and High Level, Atlin is not served by Telus transport facilities. It is connected to the Telus network by 1,300 kilometres of leased Northwestel transport facilities. It is an island completely separated from the rest of Telus' ILEC network and because of that service is less reliable than it should be. Equally important, the cost of 1,300 kilometres of Northwestel transport makes it a very costly arrangement. If broadband services were to be offered in this manner, the reliability would be no better, while the cost for transport, whether leased or built, would be much higher.

2688 The most practical, cost-efficient and reliable option to bring terrestrial broadband service to Atlin is to transfer incumbency to Northwestel. This is the case for three reasons. First, it will be far less expensive for Northwestel to build or lease transport to the Yukon than it would be for Telus to build or lease transport to the rest of the Telus network.

2689 Second, because residents would be served from the Yukon, it will make them less susceptible to community isolation caused by transport failures.

2690 And third, all provisioning and repair functions could be more quickly performed by Yukon-based technicians, ensuring the service is reliable and resilient.

2691 Telus and Bell Canada have reached an agreement in principle to transfer the incumbency in Atlin to Northwestel. This will enable better, more reliable service for the residents. Our proposal is also supported by the Taku River Tlinget First Nation.

2692 MR. SCHMIDT: This concludes Telus' presentation. We would be pleased to address any questions you may have.

2693 THE CHAIRPERSON: Great. Thank you very much. Thank you for your detailed submissions, your written submissions, and also for being here with us this week in Whitehorse to participate in the hearing.

2694 I can say that, you know, I think you've probably largely dodged a line of questioning with respect to Atlin with your announcement with respect to the Telus and Bell Canada agreement in principle. I say "largely". We'll see what the Vice Chair does. I'll turn it over to the Vice Chair Telecom. Thank you.

2695 VICE CHAIRPERSON SCOTT: Thank you very much, Madam Chair, and thank you again everyone for appearing.

2696 I do think I'll start questioning where you left off with your remarks on the issue of Atlin. Again, very positive to see. I think yesterday when we heard the powerful words of Elder Carlick, I was optimistic that his call to action would move people to take action and step forward. Very encouraged to see that that appears to be the case.

2697 But Cherish Clarke also used the word momentum a number of times in her remarks. So I think we should take her advice to heart as well and let's see if we can keep this momentum moving forward.

2698 So could you outline maybe a step-by-step overview of what needs to happen to move us from an agreement in principle to the people of Atlin seeing service improvements?

2699 MS. SOBANI: Thank you very much for that question. We are equally delighted to see we have an agreement in principle.

2700 From this point on we envision a four-step process until the day that people living in Atlin and Taku River Tlinget First Nation can enjoy the speeds that everyone else in Canada have access to.

2701 Step one from this point is to legalize that agreement which has been achieved in principle, and we are very hopeful to complete that by the end of next month. So by the end of May, we should have a legal document which is fully signed and implemented.

2702 The second stage is actual transfer of the infrastructure and the customers, where Telus will be very cooperative throughout the process to make sure that Northwestel is fully supported to take on the facilities and the customers.

2703 From that point on, there are two more steps that will have to be completed by Northwestel. Step number three would be to apply for the subsidies to bring the fibre to the home connectivity for Atlin and Taku River. And the last step would be the implementation of that subsidy program, while working with the stakeholders that will make it possible, like permitting and having all other things in place.

2704 VICE CHAIRPERSON SCOTT: Thank you very much. Do you see any of those stages as being particularly sticky situations? Are they relatively straightforward? What's your risk assessment?

2705 MS. SOBANI: So we feel that the first two stages are going to take place very, very quickly and without any major issues or roadblocks. As stated, over the next five to six weeks, we will have the legal agreement fully signed and executed, and then over the next few months, the transfer can take place. Based on Telus' experience applying for different subsidy programs and implementing the actual build, the Government of B.C. and ISED is fortunately now in the process of expecting the next round of applications, and having the agreement in place will allow Northwestel to apply for subsidies within this year without any major hurdle. However, they will be in a better position to shed light on step three and step four. But based on our experience, we see a smooth road from this point on.

2706 VICE CHAIRPERSON SCOTT: Any requirement for the CRTC to take any action to help facilitate this moving forward?

2707 MR. SCHMIDT: Not in a strict legal sense. In a practical sense, the transfer of the assets, customers, and operations to Northwestel enables them to provide service and advantageously positions them to apply for broadband transport funding, et cetera.

2708 I think the most I would suggest is that the Commission can monitor things, and we would be happy to work with Bell in some kind of modality, Bell and Northwestel, on some modality of updating you, because I think that's important. And I think at some point the Commission has to simply acknowledge that the quote/unquote change of incumbency took place, because there are things like tariffs, there are articulated obligations that would apply then to Northwestel in that community that didn't apply before but I think you are basically acknowledging a fact.

2709 VICE CHAIR SCOTT: Thank you. On the issue of updates and supervision, is there a chance that by the time final submissions are due on June 9th, you'd be able to file something?

2710 MR. SCHMIDT: You're ahead of me or I'm behind you.

2711 It's propitiously timed for that. I would suggest we can update you on the completion of step one, the binding legal agreement and the progress on step two.

2712 My suggestion would be we'll set out the road map on that filing -- is it 9 June, I think? Yeah. So we'll set up the road map for you, we'll set up the progress against the road map, we will have good news to report and in my Bell or Northwestel colleagues feel differently, they'll tell you, but I suspect we have a mutual interest in updating you at that time. Thank you

2713 VICE CHAIR SCOTT: I think we're all looking forward to that. Much appreciated.

2714 I will move my questions on now to the issue of affordability and then I'll follow up with some more specifics on subsidies, so that will come.

2715 First I would like just to wrap my head around the Telus position on the issue of affordability. Is it a fair restatement of your views that you see the affordability issue in the north as more broadly applicable and not just a telecom affordability issue? Is that a fair statement?

2716 MR. SCHMIDT: Absolutely. There have been some, I think, mischaracterizations potentially in the hearing process of our position, but our position actually quite closely tracks the Commission's own and the TNC in terms of things are broadly more expensive in the north across a range of goods and services. Incomes on average are higher in the north, but that doesn't mean individuals, particularly low-income individuals, don't face an affordability problem. So there's a problem for low-income individuals here, that's undoubted, and indeed across the country.

2717 VICE CHAIR SCOTT: And is it fair to say that your preferred approach is with broader government social and income supports as opposed to telecom-specific measures?

2718 MR. SCHMIDT: That's fair to say, but we're offering you a constructive path forward if the Commission sees it differently.

2719 VICE CHAIR SCOTT: Perfect, because I do think -- in addition to whatever views the Commission may hold, I also want to mention the recent policy direction from ISED which I think certainly places an emphasis on the CRTC taking measures to foster affordability.

2720 We've certainly heard a lot on the record up to this point as well.

2721 Do you have any views on kind of squaring the circle between your views on best approach to affordability and the government's clear expression that there's a role for the CRTC to address affordability, presumably through our powers over prices?

2722 MR. SCHMIDT: That traditionally is always the heart of that, like the kind of balancing and just and reasonable rates for the last 120 years is fair on the provider to the one hand in terms of an opportunity to recover their cost of operations and fair to the consumer on the other hand and in terms of their interests being served at the lowest possible price.

2723 So you have a role for the last 120 years, it's undoubted, and you may decide to look at your role differently because you have new tools now like the Broadband Fund. And we're supportive of that.

2724 We would probably be hesitant about extending it to every province and every city, but we're in a specific set of acute circumstances up here and we have -- we support you potentially pursuing alternative paths.

2725 VICE CHAIR SCOTT: I know one of the measures that you reference in your submissions, the voluntary measures like we've seen with the Connected Families program, you noted in your submissions that Northwestel has opted not to participate in that program.

2726 In your view, what's the role of the Commission in, let's say, encouraging further participation in such voluntary measures?

2727 MR. SCHMIDT: Commission encouragement is a very powerful tool and it may be that in the circumstances of the north where there's -- you know, if there's a disproportionate amount of high-income people at issue, Northwestel might have a point that it'll have a deleterious impact on their finances and revenues and you have to somehow take that into account. But you still are centrally charged with dealing with affordability one way or another. There's no ducking that.

2728 VICE CHAIR SCOTT: Thank you.

2729 So on the question of an affordability standard, I know in your remarks today you suggested that we use something existing and that we use something simple and an upright line test. Did you have a specific line test in mind?

2730 MR. SCHMIDT: Since 1976, Stats Can has had a low-income cut-off in place that's developed by the experts statistical agency. It's variegated by province and territory, it's variegated by family size, and it takes into account affordability in the sense of purchasing a broad basket of essentials, and when it crosses a certain threshold of consumption of income, the family is considered below the low-income cut-off, so I think that's valuable, empirical and established.

2731 It's something you could have recourse to. It would be, I think, very challenging for you to develop something on your own.

2732 So we're offering that in the spirit of assistance.

2733 VICE CHAIR SCOTT: Thank you.

2734 Before I move into some more questions about subsidies specifically, again on the issue of an affordability standard, other than supporting calculation of a subsidy or assessing eligibility for a subsidy, are there other ways that a certain construction of an affordability standard could be helpful, would help us monitor progress, serve as a rallying call for the industry in the way that I think the 50/10 standard did?

2735 MR. SCHMIDT: Yeah. I think that, yeah, the Commission may underestimate the power of transparency. So I'm agreeing with that.

2736 Things like the CCTS report where simply the act of publishing customer service outcomes and complaint outcomes, it's very potent. So monitoring, publishing, et cetera, I think it's important for you to know what's going on, for sure.

2737 And then the Broadband Fund on the capital side is an important counterpart.

2738 I think, fundamentally and pragmatically, a lot of what you're going to be doing outside of the major centres here is enabling the construction of better facilities that can offer service at a lower cost. I just think it's -- you're unavoidably implicated as partners in that. And that's positive.

2739 And it's a fact that the first, you know, telecommunications lines to traverse through the Town of Atlin were 123 years ago and they were built by the federal government, like the telegraph office. And for 50 years after that, they were owned and operated by the federal government and phone lines were, too.

2740 So you're going to be unavoidably involved in these challenging geographies, and that's okay. That's very legitimate.

2741 VICE CHAIR SCOTT: Some specific questions on your subsidy submissions.

2742 I think today I heard you say that if there were operational subsidies, they should go directly to the consumer who could then choose where they use them.

2743 In your comments, your reply comments, there was a headline that said, "If service subsidies are implemented, they should not be portable." Is this a change in position?

2744 MR. SCHMIDT: John, you may wish to top up.

2745 We were objecting to the older Commission portable contribution model established after the 1997 local competition decision that put money in the hands of providers who may have not had any ambition or intention in fact of serving in remote and rural areas, and I think the Commission eventually decided it wasn't really working well. So we are objecting to that.

2746 But we agree about putting money in the hands of consumers so they can make choices, whether through -- whether ultimately you're giving them a voucher, a code or whatever that enables the transfer of funds to -- from the Broadband Fund to a provider that's actually serving them.

2747 VICE CHAIR SCOTT: Okay.

2748 MR. MacKENZIE: If I might, the issue with the other one was it was paid to the provider who simply -- who offered service wherever. They could get the subsidy wherever it was -- wherever they chose to serve, right, so they chose the lower cost areas.

2749 In this case, we're proposing that if someone in, for example, Burwash Landing, it will go to somebody who -- only to a provider who chooses to provide service in Burwash Landing. It won't be to somebody in Whitehorse.

2750 VICE CHAIR SCOTT: Thank you for that.

2751 Thank you. I think we've got our microphones sorted.

2752 With means-tested subsidies, we know that there can be challenges with uptake. Any process that requires an application process can introduce barriers to benefiting from the service. I think PIAC told us the other day that the highest we could expect in terms of participation would be 30 percent.

2753 Is there a risk with a means-tested subsidy that not all Canadians who ought to be benefiting will ultimately benefit?

2754 MR. SCHMIDT: Subject to how it's implemented, I guess the answer is yes. But there may be -- you know, if you think of CRA, there may be all sorts of tax credits that are means tested but they're automatically implemented, you know.

2755 So it's partly a question of the how, but the risk you identify, I think, is real as well.

2756 VICE CHAIR SCOTT: Turning now to wholesale services. So you're among many participants calling for the implementation of the wholesale assessment in the north and a high-speed HSA framework presumably to follow.

2757 How would you see the deployment of a wholesale framework affecting the need for ongoing retail regulation?

2758 MR. MacKENZIE: Well, I'm sorry. You're talking about -- are you talking about as opposed to retail forbearance?

2759 VICE CHAIR SCOTT: I'm talking about how much of the problems of the affordability and quality of service in the north can be addressed through a wholesale framework and where might we expect that wholesale wouldn't meet the needs of Canadians and, therefore, there might be an ongoing requirement for retail regulation.

2760 MR. SCHMIDT: I think kind of pragmatically, as I said a couple moments ago, you're going to end up with a geographic division, and competition is eminently feasible in different forms in the major centres, including the one we're sitting in, and then you're going to get into the smaller, sparser, isolated communities with very limited demand and they're very isolated and that's a different game there. It's going to involve a different policy approach where you're maybe more focused on achieving connectivity than competition. You're not going to stand in the way of competition and make it illegal or something, but your dominant policy focus in some of those geographies is how do I enable the construction of better facilities, is my sense. And so -- and you know, TBD, if there's going to be retail regulation as well. But I would partly encourage you to think about geographies.

2761 VICE CHAIRPERSON SCOTT: If a wholesale HSA framework was mandated, we've seen a number of proposals on how rates should be set, whether it be a cost-based process, retail minus, or your proposal for a commercially negotiated solution with an arbitration backstop. Could you comment on the pros and cons of those various options for rate setting?

2762 MR. MacKENZIE: Yes. We support strongly what we call the "negotiate first" process, which is commercial negotiations for wholesale with a Commission backstop, as required. And this is primarily due to what we've seen with respect since 2015, that the -- or even earlier, that the costing process is particularly controversial and time-consuming. And this is our proposal to get around it, because sometimes there are -- if there can be a deal done quickly, then it benefits everyone.

2763 VICE CHAIRPERSON SCOTT: Okay. A quick question about LEO. You propose that LEO services should be factored into the application of the Wholesale Analysis. Is there anything else the CRTC needs to be looking at from a regulatory perspective to respond to the introduction of LEO services and any future growth in that area?

2764 MR. SCHMIDT: I just think you need to take it into account in the analysis and not count it out from the outset and, you know, it will factor into your thinking, is what I would say.

2765 VICE CHAIRPERSON SCOTT: I think we're into my lightning round. My questions will get shorter.

2766 Any thoughts on the effectiveness of refunds for outages as a means of incenting investment in network resiliency?

2767 MR. MacKENZIE: Well, to the extent that they work -- they do work today. They're tariffed, in most cases they're outages -- refunds for outages are in CRTC-approved tariffs now. Certainly, they work. There are conditions, of course. And on forbearance -- on forborne services, we don't think they're required -- I mean, they work, and they're usually driven by commercial reasons to treat your customers properly.

2768 VICE CHAIRPERSON SCOTT: And do you see any reason why a framework for addressing outages, minimizing the impact of outages, would need to have a separate process for a Northern solution, or could this be addressed as a national framework, recognizing that while the impact and frequency of outages in the north may be higher, these are the types of challenges we see across the country?

2769 MR. MacKENZIE: No, I would not see any reason for it to be different. Some areas will have more outages, and some won't. It's not necessarily a far north phenomenon.

2770 MR. SCHMIDT: The difference is they appear to be exempted from the application of some of the fireworks right now. So I think all parts of Canada, all Canadians, all major providers, should be integrated into the common framework.

2771 VICE CHAIRPERSON SCOTT: Thank you. Turning now to relationships with Indigenous rights-holders. You spoke at some length in your opening remarks about the efforts Telus is going to. Could you speak to maybe some specific practices Telus employs that you think other service providers ought to be adopting as well?

2772 MS. SOBANI: Thank you for the question.

2773 So since the cultural responsiveness and relationship-building is one of the strong pillars of our IRAP strategy, we have a multidimensional approach to address it.

2774 First of all, it really starts with understanding that each government has a unique culture and a unique way of governing their communities. So in an effort to help our team members who are interacting with the community members living on Indigenous lands, we wanted to make sure that they're fully aware and educated. So Telus has invested in an extensive e-learning program which has been rolled out to all its team members so that they can have a better understanding of our shared history, and they have a better understanding of the unique cultures, and they have that front and centre while interacting with the community members.

2775 That's one dimension.

2776 The second dimension is that when we go into the communities and when we start to engage with them on our infrastructure projects, we always have a very open, transparent, inclusive, and collaborative dialogue.

2777 One example from last year is from Xeni Gwet'in Nation, where through a subsidy program we were extending fibre to the home project, which included installing new pole infrastructure on their land which wasn't culturally or environmentally an acceptable proposal for them. So working with them under those guidelines under UNDRIP and relationship building, we were able to pivot the solution and change the delivery of the broadband service from FTTH to a wireless tower which was a more acceptable solution by Xeni Gwet'in.

2778 VICE CHAIRPERSON SCOTT: Thank you. In your remarks this morning you reference the CRTC's convening power as a power that we could use to encourage others to adopt respectful, meaningful engagement with First Nations.

2779 Beyond our convening power, we have others. Should any of the other powers be used to facilitate stronger relationships between service providers and rights-holders?

2780 MR. SCHMIDT: Yeah, your questions are getting hard.

2781 There's a package of kind of related questions and I want to touch on a couple of them.

2782 In terms of the framework through which you should think about it, the Government of Canada has adopted UNDRIP and taken steps in June of '21 to transpose it into law, and it is their -- it is the state's framework for reconciliation, so I think it should be your framework for reconciliation. And it will inform your actions and you'll have to operationalize it over time and it's a kind of morally and intellectual fertile process, because it's new and challenging.

2783 So you will implement UNDRIP. It is a set of commitments that apply to state actors, to governments, and is made between state actors. It will be implemented in your processes. It has to be. And in some way TBD, we will help you, because we are your agents in the world for really making manifest your aspirations, because you're not carriers, we are. We have to kind of, go and do all the stuff. So we're going to work with you in some manner that is highly TBD, including in dialogue with First Nations. And if I have wholly missed your actual question, please circle back.

2784 VICE CHAIRPERSON SCOTT: I think you've answered it effectively, and I know my colleagues have questions as well.

2785 So I'm going to ask one more. It's because we have a VP of Networks in front of us that I'm asking and because it addresses, I think a common frustration that we've heard this week. I've heard it my whole life in telecom.

2786 For the person who steps out on his front porch and sees fibre running down the street and wonders why he's still dealing with the underwhelming service. Can you talk to us about what has to happen for that person to get connected? I know it's not as simple as some of us non-experts think. But can you shed some light on what I think is a very understandable frustration and the reasons behind it?

2787 MS. SOBANI: Thank you for that question and I think we share that frustration equally with the residents of those lands and communities as well.

2788 The way we approach it when we are looking at prioritizing our investment and how quickly and effectively we can get to underserved or unserved communities, is we always look at their adjacency' right? So we have talked about having the backbone, having the transport fibre available. That is like step one in the process of extending the connectivity. The next step is how that's extended to provide the last-mile fibre into the communities, which is a slightly different process and requires installation of very different equipment and electronics.

2789 However, if the projects can be brought together under a single envelope and umbrella, where especially through our subsidy programs where a subsidy for a transport build can only be granted when it has tangible pieces of last mile, and there are some measurable and quantifiable end-user benefits is one way to actually resolve it; right? Because you're taking that fibre on the side of the highway, but you are also breaking it off every few kilometres to serve the communities who are along the highway.

2790 VICE CHAIRPERSON SCOTT: Great. Thank you very much.

2791 Madam Chairperson, those are my questions.

2792 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Why don't we go over to Commissioner Naidoo?

2793 COMMISSIONER NAIDOO: Thank you very much for being here today, and for your presentation and your submission as well.

2794 I have a question regarding engagement of Indigenous communities. Do you suggest that the CRTC outline some engagement best practices or guidelines to sort of, make the approach more uniform?

2795 MR. SCHMIDT: Thank you very much for the question.

2796 So picking up a little bit on my dialogue with the Vice Chair. UNDRIP is the framework for reconciliation that has been adopted by the Government of Canada. So that is the framework -- like, pragmatically put, that you should adopt. I don't think that you should adopt or extemporize a different set of guidelines. That is the framework. But you will have to decide how to make it real and manifest in the world and that will be a, like, morally and intellectual fertile problem.

2797 Will the next time you come up here, will you sit down here with us and the First Nations, or will we all sit at a roundtable together? Will the next time you come up here, will you in fact be convened by a First Nation and not convening them, or will you be hearing something jointly with them? So I think there are great problems and challenges.

2798 So UNDRIP is your framework. I think you have to figure out a way jointly with First Nations to kind of make it real through your processes, et cetera. I hope that's a bit helpful but that's all I can offer right now.

2799 COMMISSIONER NAIDOO: That was helpful.

2800 I wanted to know what the real time effects are of not-great Indigenous engagement from your point of view, because really, it's subjective from a company point of view. What one -- one company might think that they're doing proper engagement; another might think that their approach is better. And I'm wondering about if you have any ideas about how to assess what is good engagement aside from, you know, asking Indigenous communities themselves, and what the fallout is for your industry if one company is not really doing effective engagement. Is that impacting, you know, others in the industry as well?

2801 MS. SOBANI: Thank you for that question. I think your question is a two-part question, so I will start with the first one.

2802 There is value in taking out the subjectivity out of what a good engagement looks like, right, so I don't think that it should be left to people for interpretation and then everybody will end up interpreting it differently.

2803 So as my colleague, Stephen, said, the guideline needs to be UNDRIP, 94 Calls to Action, and 231 Calls for Justice. We absolutely cannot deviate from that.

2804 The second very important point is we cannot make decisions, solutions or develop strategies without Indigenous governments, people, Indigenous voices, Indigenous ways of knowing, and Indigenous lived experiences being part of that dialogue. That would not be the right process to approach it, right.

2805 So for the first part of your question, those would be my two kind of perspectives.

2806 On the second part, which is how we have done it and what would be our suggestion for others, I think I can't speak for others, but I can reflect light on how we have done our learnings and what we think is working for us. It really starts with recognizing that every Indigenous community is an independent and unique culture and an independent government, right. And engaging with them with that understanding and then really learning and knowing that what is culturally and environmentally acceptable and feasible for each unique individual community and adopting that in an agreeable manner with the communities for all the network implementation projects that are going to take place on their land.

2807 COMMISSIONER NAIDOO: That's very helpful. I did want to just expand a little bit on the second part of my question, and I know my other colleagues have questions as well.

2808 When you -- I just wanted to find out if you feel any fallout from others in the industry not doing an acceptable standard of engagement with Indigenous communities because then when a company goes in after an Indigenous community may have felt that they, you know, just didn't get the respect that they deserved, does that make it harder for the entire industry?

2809 MS. SOBANI: That's a great question. It does make it hard for all of us, right.

2810 And there are good examples and then there are not-so-good examples currently, and that's where we go back to that the Commission can actually play a very active role by convening all the right parties to get to a point where there is an opportunity to take the subjectivity out and having a very well-defined guidance for everyone because you're absolutely right with your observation and comment that it does make it hard for everyone, and there is a lot of variability today in the industry.

2811 COMMISSIONER NAIDOO: All right. I don't want to take up any more of your time. Thank you very much.

2812 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Why don't we go over to Commissioner Desmond and then Commissioner Anderson.

2813 COMMISSIONER DESMOND: Good morning and thank you for being here.

2814 I have three questions. I guess I'll start -- my first question is with respect to rate-setting. Vice Chair Scott asked a question about your preferred approach to rate-setting if there was to be competition, and I think, Mr. MacKenzie, you responded that your starting point would be negotiation first.

2815 We did hear earlier this week from SSi who told us that, in their view, negotiation was a challenge for smaller players in that it tended to favour the incumbents.

2816 So could you comment on his submission with respect to the FOA process and if negotiation doesn't work and then, secondly, what would be another option to negotiation first?

2817 MR. MacKENZIE: Again, negotiation first. If negotiations don't go right, then, yes, it would be CRTC mediation or intervention of some sort or CRTC involvement. This, I don't think would -- this might happen originally, but sometimes guidelines, you know, the way that the CRTC gets a -- once one agreement is established, it becomes sort of a framework that others understand. I don't know if it would go on forever.

2818 But apart from that, we don't know of another way besides Phase 2 rate-setting.

2819 COMMISSIONER DESMOND: So you do not endorse like retail minus as an approach?

2820 MR. SCHMIDT: We don't. In fact, the Commission has serially rejected it for many reasons, including that it's just infeasible. What's the price if it changes every three minutes? It's different on Wednesday and Sunday, in August or November. So no, that kind of international standard or benchmark for wholesale costing is long-run incremental costs and Phase 2 at the Commission is a version of that. So that would be -- I would stay with the international standard.

2821 And one of the challenges that the competitors up here are facing, including Telus, is that many of these studies are of absolutely ancient vintage. They haven't been redone in 10 or 12 or more years. So I think you would benefit from refreshing some of the cost studies up here to 2023 rates.

2822 COMMISSIONER DESMOND: Okay. Thank you.

2823 My second question relates to the availability of facilities when incumbents receive public funds.

2824 So we've heard from many intervenors that if an incumbent or a service provider receives funds, maybe from the Broadband Fund, and benefit in the construction of facilities, then those facilities then should be available for all players to use because they've been developed with the benefit of public funds.

2825 So I'm curious if you could provide your view on that.

2826 MR. SCHMIDT: That's just, from my understanding, an essentially standard feature of public Broadband Fundings at many levels of government so it's actually a legal fact and we recognize it and support it.

2827 COMMISSIONER DESMOND: Okay, thank you. And then, finally, I just wanted to have a little further conversation about the subsidy proposal that you've made.

2828 And just as I understand it, you're suggesting that the subsidy would go to the consumer. So once a consumer has qualified for a subsidy, then they would be able to access funds and apply it to their account with the provider that they're using.

2829 You've heard probably over the last few days the urgency to assist many consumers with the cost of service, so affordability clearly would be a priority.

2830 Does that mean, in the short term, that we would potentially be providing a subsidy to consumers who then would immediately be able to apply that to their accounts?

2831 Practically speaking, that would put funds primarily in the hand of the incumbent in the short term. Does that -- because most consumers in many of the areas would have Northwestel as a service provider. Does that then potentially create a barrier for competition where funds now have been provided to an incumbent and have supported that incumbent in their operations? Would that create a barrier for other service providers to break into the market?

2832 MR. SCHMIDT: If you gave money -- not you. If the fund conferred subsidies on Northwestel and Northwestel said, hey, I'll lower rates in all these communities and you give me a bunch of money from the Broadband Fund to enable that, that would undoubtedly be a barrier to competition and undoubtedly entrench them. If you put money in the hands of consumers in some way, it's potentially less distortive of the market and more competitively neutral because they could choose to use it for Starlink or SSi or something else.

2833 COMMISSIONER DESMOND: Right. And that would be kind of the immediate impact, right? There would be an immediate benefit to the consumer.

2834 But then in the long term, does that somehow impact or, as you say, distort the competitive market?

2835 MR. SCHMIDT: My sense -- I'm trying to help you, and I recognize the urgency of -- the importance and the urgency.

2836 Financing people for particular providers that unilaterally lower rates will probably be competition distortive. Putting money in the hands of consumers, less so. Unilaterally lowering all rates, like if you just decided everything should come down by 25 percent in the far north, that would be extremely destructive to kind of nascent entry and competition. So that is an option that you probably shouldn't pursue.

2837 It will be very destructive along the lines you're noting in terms of nascent competition. So you have to -- and that's why, in our opening statement, we have to think of more kind of thoughtful and targeted approaches like putting money in the hands of consumers.

2838 It could potentially be done very quickly. You know, some of the provinces like New Brunswick or Nova Scotia establish programs and just mail a letter out to everyone who is eligible, you know, "This is how you get the money". In those cases, it's capital funding for the $1,000 that you might need to sign up for Starlink or something else.

2839 But there's ways of doing it where I think there's no eligibility stigma, it's just like everyone gets the letter and they can choose to action it or not.

2840 COMMISSIONER DESMOND: Thank you for your responses.

2841 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

2842 Commissioner Anderson?

2843 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Thank you. Thank you for your submissions and thank you for being here today.

2844 I had a question and it's really fueled by some of the comments made on Tuesday by other service providers. And in particular, SSi and Iristel both spoke about their efforts to engage with Indigenous entities so that Indigenous communities own their own infrastructure. And I was wondering if you could say more about your views on that and whether or not that's a priority for you as well.

2845 MS. SOBANI: Thank you for that question.

2846 So I think in a way you're talking about economic reconciliation, which is again a very, very strong pillar of our overall IRAP strategy.

2847 We believe that we should always seek the right solution for the challenge at hand, and that solution will be devised based on what the capabilities are and whatnot. So we actually believe that a strength-based approach is the best way forward to support it, whether in terms of Indigenous ownership or Indigenous economic reconciliation, and we are trying to adopt it, particularly with our network build.

2848 So currently we are working with over 15 Indigenous-owned organizations to extend our network capabilities in various areas of our serving territory. Whether it is Swanson Concrete of Shíshálh Nation who is our primary contractor for all our macro tower deployment, and now we are extending that relationship with Shíshálh Nation to train the local community members to take on the ongoing repair and maintenance of those towers. Whether it is us working with Eagle Green, which was a very small five-employee company in the Lower Mainland, working with Telus they have now expanded to a 60-team member company and they have the major share of our flagging business.

2849 Another example is Taku West Limited, which is a construction company in the interior of B.C., and they are our main contractor partner for all network expansion, and I'm glad to say that we are keeping them very busy.

2850 So I think what you're really referring is that what is the right way to approach economic reconciliation, if I --

2851 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Because we are on limited time, I'm going to say that's not really what I was getting at. I appreciate and understand that you have been extending opportunities to Indigenous businesses in terms of providing ancillary support, and by that, I mean you've discussed maintenance and opportunities for flagging. But what I'm talking about are opportunities for ownership of telecom infrastructure, not the jobs that support telecom projects or telecom networks.

2852 MS. SOBANI: So where it makes sense -- I think we are supportive of it -- and as my colleague Stephen said we need to look at the technology, the ongoing reliability. So where it makes sense and where that might be the most effective solution, we will support it.

2853 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Okay. And some of the intervenors also from Tuesday, spoke about providing assistance to help Indigenous-owned service providers get to a point where I guess it would make sense. Is that something that Telus is interested in? Is that something that Telus currently does?

2854 MS. SOBANI: We will be very open to supporting that.

2855 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: And so, you spoke about being interested in supporting Indigenous service providers and facilitating Indigenous service providers, but is that something that you're actually doing right now?

2856 MS. SOBANI: We are actually exploring a couple of opportunities actively for the last few months.

2857 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Thank you. I also note that you've said quite clearly in your submissions that our first priority should be facilities-based competition, and I also note your commitment towards reconciliation and the principles underlying UNDRIP. And I note that one of the contemplations within UNDRIP is free, prior, and informed consent, which we've spoken about at length with several intervenors over the past few days.

2858 If Indigenous communities don't agree that facilities-based competition is the way to go forward, what would you say about your prioritization of facilities-based competition?

2859 MR. SCHMIDT: I mean, the way that dialogue is normally -- or customarily engaged with these communities is actually because we're the provider. We're the provider in most of these places in Alberta and B.C., and so it's a different kind of Article 19 dialogue about getting on their lands to be able to provide -- consensually to be able to provide service.

2860 You have to take their voices into account, I mean I think was my short answer, and I said to the Vice Chair, and the reality is in many of these areas, you might not find that your primary policy undertaking will be promoting competition, it will be supporting the construction of networks or something through Broadband Funds. These areas, communities, nations are different. So it may be that a different approach is required in consultation with them.

2861 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: So if an Indigenous community's priority is service-based competition, that would be something that you would support?

2862 MR. SCHMIDT: I think Shazia has said that in fact there's an absolute -- a very wide range of arrangements that we've supported in these communities of building towers or making things available. So the short answer is yes.

2863 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: All right. Thank you. Thank you for answering my questions. It's much appreciated.

2864 THE CHAIRPERSON: So maybe one final question and we'll put things back to you, and it's a very broad question and I think it's a nice segue from Commissioner Anderson's question and others as well.

2865 So you've been here this week, you've been listening, you have been watching, you've heard the concerns, you've heard a number of proposals, you've heard the sense of urgency, and you know we heard quite a bit about comments that the CRTC made 10 years ago, you know, about the fact that we're in our fourth calendar year in this proceeding and that's very much a CRTC responsibility.

2866 I think the clear message has been, let's go. You know that we're here to help improve affordability, improve reliability, increase competition, advance reconciliation. And so my question to you is, as a service provider, looking at this, what do you think we should prioritize, again, acknowledging that we need to move quickly?

2867 MR. SCHMIDT: I'll start, and my colleagues may wish to add.

2868 You can decisively place Northwestel into the competition framework for the rest of Canada, including, you know, with updated cost studies from 2023 and sort of, seek to enable facilities-based competition, particularly in the major centres. You can also prioritize the very, very important work of your Broadband Fund, so get more applications approved and more money out the door for those many, many, many communities where your primary policy intervention might be to help build stuff, to increase -- to address unserved or underserved.

2869 So those are two very short-term things I would recommend.

2870 MS. SOBANI: I'll just add one more thing. As Stephen was saying, advancing the subsidy grants quicker to address it. I think connectivity and solving the connectivity gap should be kind of, the number one challenge. But also looking at the framework of current subsidy programs and adjusting them or tailoring them to the unique needs of Indigenous lands and Indigenous connectivity. And especially in light of some of the comments that Commissioner Anderson shared, that if Indigenous governments actually want to operate their own telecommunications services, or facilities-based competition to allow them to have their infrastructure, we have to look at a very different framework of subsidy awards for those types of projects.

2871 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. So then -- thank you. Back to you for the final word.

2872 MR. SCHMIDT: Thank you. I have two final comments and I'll allow my colleagues to top up if they have anything else.

2873 I want to first express my sort of thanks and maybe admiration about how different this process has been, sort of, kind, inclusive. You've made it safe for people who are not used to appearing before you, so I think that's very commendable and it's going to -- and it's very palpable in the room. It's a different CRTC and a different experience, and I think it will lead to a better record and a better outcome. So that I just -- thumbs up. You can put that in the transcript.

2874 And then maybe lastly on Atlin, because I screwed up Vice-Chair Scott's more dramatic line of questioning potentially with some of the positive developments, so I didn't get to talk about it enough. So I'll just share a little bit of context and we'll give you the June 9^th update about who, what, when, how.

2875 But we've entered into an agreement in principle to transfer the operations, assets, et cetera, in that community. It involves us paying a lot of money to Northwestel, and that's good and fair. And that will allow them to -- that will, in turn, accelerate the fibrization of the community. By them being in possession of network access, then they're advantageously positioned to apply for transport funding, and it brings everything together very nicely and I'm not taking any large amount of the credit.

2876 The First Nation did very important and tireless work, the community of Atlin, Bell, Northwestel, and Telus has had a small piece which helps kind of synergize it and take it across the finish line. But everyone has done important stuff, and the Commission's attention on this issue and the spotlight on the community was very useful. The kind of moral and regulatory spotlight you put on it helps me and my colleagues kind of move it up the agenda at Telus, and it clearly moved it up the agenda at Bell and Northwestel, and that's a great outcome. But we got to an outcome where we could fix it with your encouragement. So that's positive. So thank you.

2877 THE CHAIRPERSON: Great. Well, thank you again, thank you for your participation. Lucky for you, Mr. Schmidt, I don't think Vice Chair Scott does not hold grudges, so I think everyone's okay. Thank you again for everything. Thank you for your participation.

2878 MR. SCHMIDT: Thank you. Thank you.

2879 MS. MOORE: Thank you for your participation in the proceeding.

2880 Nous allons prendre une pause de 10 minutes. Nous serons de retour à 11h20.

2881 Merci.

--- Upon recessing at 11:11 a.m.

--- Upon resuming at 11:25 a.m.

2882 MS. MOORE: Welcome back, everyone. We'll proceed with the next presentation. Please introduce yourselves, and you have 15 minutes for your presentation.

Presentation

2883 MS. WILLIAMS: Thank you. Thank you for the introduction and I'm grateful to be in the territory of the Kwanlin Dün Ta'an Kwäch'än people.

2884 My name is Ruth Williams. I am here representing the National Indigenous Economic Development Board. And I don't know why someone didn't attend with me. They've sent me out here on my own. So be patient with me as I proceed.

2885 I am First Nations, I'm Shuswap, and you've all heard of Tk'emlúps te Secwe?pemc in Kamloops. I'm Shuswap. I'm from High Bar, a little isolated reserve which is about 40 miles away from nothing. So I come from a family of seven raised by a single mother, so I'm a very humble individual and very grateful.

2886 I'm the Project Manager of the project that you've heard mentioned here earlier by Telus. In addition to being on the National Indigenous Economic Development Board, I'm fortunate to have a history of having worked in British Columbia for the past 12 to 13 years at the beginning of engaging our communities and getting our communities in British Columbia connected.

2887 So it's somewhat -- I feel I'm very fortunate that I've learned from a very grass roots level on how to start something, how to start engaging our communities, how to negotiate contracts with the telcos, and how to comfortably address and protect, and try and get our communities on equal setting with everyone else.

2888 In British Columbia we have 203 First Nations. In addition to that, there are reserves, which is not the ceded government but occupied communities, there are 307 communities. So we're looking at a total of over 600 that need to be connected.

2889 I also manage housing resource services for 33 First Nations from three different tribal groups. I recently retired as Vice Chairperson of the First Nations Market Housing Fund and I'm presently a member of the Service Advisory Committee for Service Canada -- bless their souls today as they're on strike -- and President of the Kamloops Native Housing Society.

2890 Today I welcome an opportunity to offer advice to the CRTC on how to improve information and communications infrastructure, not only in the far north, but I think that our people on our reserves within the different provinces also are isolated and underserved.

2891 As I mentioned earlier, I have spent the past, I think 13 years actually, working in the area of connectivity in British Columbia.

2892 Many of the recommendations and observations that I make today are not only applicable to the Far North but also to the rural and remote Indigenous and non-Indigenous communities across the country. And while not all of my recommendations fall within CRTC jurisdiction, bridging the connectivity gap will require a whole-of-government approach, including players such as Indigenous Services Canada, and Innovation, Science, and Economic Development.

2893 The National Indigenous Economic Development Board is mandated by the Minister of Indigenous Services to provide advice to the whole of government. We're not restricted just to providing advice to Indigenous Services Canada, but in all aspects that affect Indigenous People across Canada. We're comprised of First Nations, Inuit, and Metis business and community leaders, and we help and guide government to respond to unique needs and circumstances affecting our people and are able to bring that community working knowledge into perspective.

2894 The Board has been working on these issues for over 30 years, and previously I think everyone knows and has heard from or of Chief Clarence Louie, who is very capable of expressing his point of view. He was the Chair of the Board. We now have Dawn Madahbee Leach, a very knowledgeable lady, who is also the General Manager of the Business Development Corporation in Waubetek.

2895 We all know one of the worst consequences of colonialism was the deliberate exclusion of Indigenous people from sharing the wealth of our country. We struggle today to find our place. I look at -- and people mention, oh, connectivity, you know, that's rather a boring word. But really, I see that as the lifeblood of our communities. We need connectivity to move forward in all aspects to take part actively in society.

2896 Economic reconciliation will be achieved when we have a vibrant Indigenous economy, when Indigenous Peoples are economically self-sufficient and have reached economic parity with Canadian society. When we prosper, so do the regions. We have found on a study that the continued economic marginalization of Indigenous Peoples in Canada costs the economy $27.7 billion. If we were as actively involved in the economy as non-Indigenous people, it would bridge that gap. And to become economically self-reliant and self-sufficient, full universal connectivity is now required in all Indigenous communities to ensure that we help build our capacity together.

2897 One of the most important recommendations that I will make to you today is that all levels of government and the private sector should increase engagement with Indigenous organizations and communities when they are undertaking decision-making about expanding networks, and in particular respect the right of free, prior, and informed consent. Involvement at the grass roots level will be increasingly important to ensuring best-fit solutions for every community. We are unique in our communities.

2898 In British Columbia, there are 17 different tribal groups, each with their own unique forms of governance. We are unique in Canada with land tenure, in the way that we manage our lands in British Columbia versus treaties in other territories, and that has to be recognized. Because the need for connectivity is so great, as we will see, too many communities have taken the fix that was on offer, rather than the one most appropriate to their needs. This must change and engagement is the key to effecting that change. Involve us, engage us in a true and respectful form.

2899 And I'm not very good at following a PowerPoint either.

2900 Connectivity as an element of reconciliation. It must be now seen as a human right in exactly the same way in which food and shelter are human rights. As early as 2005 world summit on the information society, Navajo nation president Joe Shirley stated, "Knowledge combined with the wisdom of our people is what creates true opportunity." This is why our peoples call for universal Indigenous connectivity which should be viewed as a necessity for healthy communities.

2901 As early as this year, the Auditor General of Canada wrote, "Being connected is no longer a luxury but a basic essential service for Canadians." Without access to fast, reliable, affordable high-speed internet and mobile cellular services, people in remote communities cannot participate in the digital economy and cannot access online education, work, and medical and government services.

2902 The recent pandemic demonstrated that access to sustainable, affordable bandwidth, sufficient to meet the needs of health, education, economic development, and emergency services is critical and is simply not enough to connect the service centres for a community to be considered 100 percent connected. To have a band connected and not community members connected cannot be seen as being 100 percent connected.

2903 For example, the Province of British Columbia entered into a state of emergency in 2021. It included internet and telecommunications in the list of services that must continue to be delivered during the pandemic as essential to preserving life, health, public safety and basic societal communication.

2904 Many of our communities across the country, that essential access to virtual health services, virtual classrooms and internet access for thousands of local businesses was not a given.

2905 One of our isolated communities in northern British Columbia did not have access to virtual -- to internet. They could not recruit and maintain teachers in their school. Our children lost a minimum of one year of education, if not three.

2906 The National Indigenous Economic Development has recognized the importance of connectivity for many years. Our economic progress report observed that increasing speed and data capacity to all Indigenous communities is essential to social and economic development, yet across much of the north, as well as in rural and remote communities, the average number of people per household is higher than in the rest of Canada. Many residents in the home are sharing a single internet connection, which means monthly data allowances are swiftly exhausted.

2907 And as indicated on screen, remote Indigenous communities face the most restrictive data allowance among the group of eight industrialized economies and within the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, which includes 38 of the world's most developed countries.

2908 The National Economic Indigenous Strategy and one of the most challenging things for us to do is to come together in a gathering of the minds to come up with national approaches, even regional approaches. However, because economic development we felt required a joint strategy, not a strategic plan but a strategy, there were 20 different organizations and actually 38 involved in developing this economic strategy. And I'll ensure that you do have a copy of the link to that strategy.

2909 And in that strategy, there are three specific topics that address connectivity and broadband services and the link to education and economic development opportunities.

2910 Talking earlier, it's hard for me to stay on topic, but when we're talking about how do we participate in the economic opportunities, you have procurement, right, that can be addressed. That's one tool in the toolbox. But to even be able to participate, we have to be able to be equipped at the community level to be able to be engaged in that.

2911 The National Indigenous Economic Strategy, as I mentioned, connectivity was highlighted.

2912 The Auditor General of Canada released a report entitled "Connectivity in Rural and Remote Areas" which found that progress on access to high-speed internet and mobile cellular services lagged behind for rural and remote communities and First Nations reserves. But because the report relies on data coming from Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada, ISED, it very likely significantly overstates cellular coverages. This is because cellular coverage is based on self-reporting by service providers within third party verification.

2913 And if I may go off topic here. For an example, when the original funding was announced and it was a major announcement and participation in funding in British Columbia, we couldn't -- from a Pathways to Technology perspective, we couldn't understand why they were mentioning that these other communities needed to be connected when we had already, in a very creative way, connected those communities and spent millions of dollars to do so. So I think that if I can -- and I'll reinforce the statement afterwards -- is we have to have the appropriate data to be able to make the appropriate decisions, and the ISED database is not as comprehensive as it could be.

2914 We know most rural and remote Indigenous communities view cellular services essential, a first priority over broadband, and a core requirement in ensuring community safety. These facts are reflected in our recommendations.

2915 The findings on the slide speak for themselves. First Nations and rural and remote Indigenous communities are left behind. The digital divide is not being bridged despite significant effort by government and service providers.

2916 There's a large number of recommendations from the Auditor General's report, all of which have been agreed to by ISED and CRTC. Those recommendations are of particular importance to today's discussions are displayed on the screen. We have already mentioned a need to verify data.

2917 In relation to affordability, First Nations, acting as their own ISPs, Internet Service Providers, those managing their own last-mile networks and paying carriers for transport to the community are faced with conflicting goals of delivering affordable, high-speed internet while also generating enough revenue to cover ongoing costs of transport, maintenance and upgrades.

2918 They're anxious to be able to provide. It seems a good plan. But they have to be guided on whether it's viable, feasible for them or if they will be suffering a debt and the services will be outdated and they won't be able to do the upkeep.

2919 More often than not, cash flow is insufficient and, over time, networks degrade so much that speed and bandwidth fall below ISP and residents subscribe for high-speed internet. Networks are sustainable, but affordability is a barrier.

2920 ISED established a working group for Indigenous stakeholders to address federal broadband challenges specific to Indigenous communities. The discussion should be expanded to include challenges with cellular service as well.

2921 Finally, the Auditor General's report indicates ISED is also considering non-competitive local licensing. This proposed new type of licensing would give a broad range of users, including Indigenous communities, the opportunity to acquire spectrum licences in localized areas across the country. This idea seems to have merit and the NIEDB would like to propose that ISED include the National Indigenous Economic Development within their deliberations regarding these ideas.

2922 The Assembly of First Nations, we found that one of our recommendations is we have to know what the gap is and we have to have appropriate data to be able to identify what that gap is. So The Assembly of First Nations Infrastructure Gap Analysis is partially complete -- they're continuing to work on it -- and I encourage this to continue.

2923 But almost half of the First Nations communities across Canada have neither cellular nor 50/10 broadband services. Only 19 percent of First Nations communities have both 50/10 broadband and cellular. These are just a couple of the -- they're saying that it would take 4.5 billion to cover the capital costs or 82.4 million to cover the operating costs to bridge that gap.

2924 MS. MOORE: Excuse me for interrupting. Can you take one moment to summarize your final words, please?

2925 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, am I there already?

2926 MS. MOORE: Yes. Actually, we've given you a few more extra minutes.

2927 Thank you.

2928 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.

2929 I think that if we can prioritize and truly establish an engagement process. In British Columbia where we dealt with Telus, we had an engagement officer. It was that engagement officer that went into Xeni Gwet'in and met with Chief and Council. There's nothing that happens, no contracts are signed without meeting with Chief and Council and getting a Band Council resolution to support acting and dealing with the -- so I believe that Telus has really benefitted from the learning experience of having worked with an engagement officer and worked directly with the communities and they're following that path and finding it's extremely beneficial for them and also for the communities.

2930 Thank you. I'm sorry.

2931 MS. MOORE: Everything is good. Not to worry. No worries.

2932 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much for being here with us today and on your own. The Board sent you here on your own because I think they had confidence that you would represent them well, which I believe you've done.

2933 So maybe I could just ask a couple of more granular questions and then ask a bigger question and then I'll turn it over to my colleagues and then we'll give you the last word if there's anything that you would like to add.

2934 We've certainly heard you on the importance of connectivity. You've made that very clear. You've used words like "lifeblood". You've spoken with us about the impact of not having sufficient telecommunications services and you've given the example of the children who missed a year, two, three years of education, which is clearly very troubling, to say the least.

2935 Your written submissions deal with some of the service issues. So you weren't able to get to that today in the opening remarks, but you've talked about the -- or you've written about the challenges of the unresponsiveness to complaints, you know, problems around reimbursements for outages and how those are not well received.

2936 Is there anything that you would like to add to that from your written submissions in terms of some of those service issues?

2937 MS. MOORE: Excuse me. Can you please turn your mic on so we can hear you properly? Thank you.

2938 MS. WILLIAMS: Would you mind repeating that? I'm trying to remember where I had addressed that in my presentation.

2939 THE CHAIRPERSON: So in the written submissions that the Board filed, there were two written submissions, and one of the areas that was covered in the written submissions was around some of the service issues that community members have experienced, and so there were concerns about the unresponsiveness to complaints when there were service issues about how, following outages, requests for refunds were not well received.

2940 I was just wondering if there was anything further that you could add to that in terms of the challenges around service issues.

2941 MS. MOORE: Please turn your mic on.

2942 MS. WILLIAMS: You'll never forget me, yeah.

2943 I don't know that that was addressed in my report. I know it was part of the report of the Yukon group.

2944 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yeah. No, it was part of the written submissions of the Board, but that's fine. If there's nothing further to add, we can move on.

2945 So in your presentation from this morning, there is reference to the monthly data allowances and how those get exhausted.

2946 I'm wondering if -- did you want to speak at all to overage fees? I assume that there's a link there with overage charges.

2947 MS. WILLIAMS: I think for us the cost, when we look at the cost where even our First Nations -- and I may be a little bit off here -- but with our First Nations, they would be the main contractor, and some of them cannot afford the high speed because our First Nations do not get any subsidy in their transfer of funds for operations for connectivity. They may get it for telephone, but not connectivity, so they can't necessarily take full advantage of that.

2948 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Maybe just a couple more questions from the presentation from this morning and then a broader question and I will turn things over to colleagues.

2949 There is reference in your presentation from this morning to Atlin and the challenges there.

2950 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

2951 THE CHAIRPERSON: I believe you heard the conversation this morning with respect to the agreement in principle between Telus and Bell Canada. Just wondering if you had anything further to add on that.

2952 MS. WILLIAMS: Well, that's been on our build list for the last 13 years, and so we're grateful to hear that there's finally going to be some resolution because we had set aside a certain amount within our budget because we made contribution, significant contributions to the builds in British Columbia. So we're grateful.

2953 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

2954 Your presentation this morning, at slide 15, there's reference to Starlink.

2955 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

2956 THE CHAIRPERSON: And it says, "Starlink is a surprisingly affordable option for remote and rural communities."

2957 We've heard different views and you've heard different views that, you know, it's very costly and it may not be a good option or a good alternative for many. I'm just wondering if you could comment further on that.

2958 MS. WILLIAMS: I think it's -- when I talk about the desperation of our communities in being connected, when they're offered Starlink it seems like a blessing. But again, I don't know that there is sufficient engagement for them to truly, truly understand that there may be other options, and so I don't think there's an engagement process. And so we're finding that there are takers, but it's -- the takers are the desperate communities needing some form. So it may not be the ideal, but it may be seen as being a temporary solution as we work to finding more appropriate solutions.

2959 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Maybe I could just finish with a bit of a broader question before turning things over.

2960 With respect to reconciliation, we've heard you on the need for engagement. That's very clear from your remarks. At a higher level, as we are looking to, through these proceedings, deal with affordability issues, increased competition, deal with the reliability issues that we've heard a lot about and you've talked about connectivity, through those actions, whatever it is we do, how can that help lead to advancing reconciliation and in particular economic reconciliation?

2961 MS. WILLIAMS: I think that ensuring that the issues of affordability are addressed so that it is accessible to all is extremely important. It's somewhat discriminatory when our people can't afford it.

2962 And I think as well -- one of the major issues as well is our own community members, we're now moving into a telehealth era, and our communities are all rural, the majority of them are rural and small and in dire need of having alternate access to health as well. And it's only through connectivity that they can have appropriate care and our Elders can stay at home and take advantage of those opportunities with telehealth.

2963 And as far as economic development, a lot of the development is in our treaty territories, isolated areas, and to truly be able to take part, to participate -- we have to have access to internet to be able to participate. And I think a lot of people don't take advantage of the opportunities or -- that are there through procurement because you don't have ready access.

2964 You know, it's just so hard to describe. I can see a picture of our communities, you know, some of them as few as 10 people living there. But are those people not as important? I say that they're probably more important to make sure they have access to services as a community of 100 because of the isolation, but we're sort of, you know, just peppered throughout the province in small isolated coastal communities. The complexity of how we address their issues for access differs, right.

2965 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much for that.

2966 I will turn things over to Commissioner Desmond. Thank you.

2967 COMMISSIONER DESMOND: Good morning and thank you for being here and for your presentation.

2968 I noticed when I read your submission and when I heard your comments today that part of your Board is comprised of Inuit businesses and community leaders as well as First Nations and Métis. So I am particularly interested in if you could provide comments about the Inuit experience and what particular challenges those businesses and communities face.

2969 MS. WILLIAMS: I have to admit that the person that I tried to get to attend with me is Andy Moorhouse, who is Inuit, and he was unable to attend but he did say that their group would be making a presentation. So I'm going to have to beg off on that, you know.

2970 I certainly can get him to provide a written presentation because their situation is unique and different than the First Nations across Canada.

2971 COMMISSIONER DESMOND: If it's possible to receive a presentation from your colleague, I think that would be very helpful.

2972 MS. WILLIAMS: I will definitely, and I'm sure he will. But I was hoping that he would attend with me because it seemed more appropriate for him to be here than me.

2973 COMMISSIONER DESMOND: Right. And I think we're very interested in hearing about the Inuit experience and their particular challenges.

2974 I don't know if we could ask for an undertaking to have that presentation provided? If that's possible, that would be very much appreciated.

2975 (Engagement)

2976 MS. WILLIAMS: Certainly. I'll request that immediately.

2977 COMMISSIONER DESMOND: You did -- in your presentation this morning, you talked about restrictive data allowances and in your written comments you did speak to -- or the report at least speaks to data allowances being an issue that has been identified by the Nunavut Broadband Development Corporation.

2978 I don't know if you're comfortable speaking to that or perhaps that's better left to your colleague.

2979 MS. WILLIAMS: I think, yeah.

2980 COMMISSIONER DESMOND: That's fine.

2981 And then just finally, earlier this morning we heard from Telus, who talked about perhaps one approach is to consider issues on a geographic basis, so looking at challenges just based on different communities. And is that an approach you think would be appropriate?

2982 Should we be thinking specifically of perhaps satellite-dependent communities versus communities that rely on internet delivered over copper? Do you think we should be considering these issues based on particular geographical needs?

2983 MS. WILLIAMS: I believe in British Columbia that would be an advantage.

2984 COMMISSIONER DESMOND: Thank you very much.

2985 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Almost off of the hook. I'm going to turn things over to Commissioner Anderson.

2986 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Hi there. Thank you for being here.

2987 MS. WILLIAMS: Thank you.

2988 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: It's great to hear your submissions.

2989 I had a pretty narrow question and it was to do with one of your slides, Slide 7. You talk about how there's a risk that some of the data that's available on what services are available in the communities might overstate what services are available in the communities.

2990 MS. WILLIAMS: Exactly. So with ISED, they rely on the data of telcos.

2991 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Right.

2992 MS. WILLIAMS: So if we look at alternative approaches, that doesn't show up on your database as being served.

2993 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Do you have any suggestion, then, on data monitoring or how to ensure more accurate results? Because not only have you said that there's a risk that an entity could significantly overstate coverage, but you say that there's sometimes service providers show that service is available in a community, but the service is poor or there might not even be service at all.

2994 So I was just wondering if you had any thoughts off the top of your head or if you wanted to provide a response in an undertaking about how better reporting could be done or more accurate reporting could be done?

2995 MS. WILLIAMS: I think you could -- what we've done in British Columbia now because of the Pathways to Technology program, we have a database as to what services and each community level, whether or not they have a health centre, whether they have a school or just the band office, what the requirements would be. And we've shared that with the province, who is also developing a more comprehensive database.

2996 And so it's showing what can happen by working together, you know, with -- we work with the telcos, with Telus. We're the ones that go in and engage with the community. We're the ones that get the Band Council resolution and get the approval for them to connect. And in alternative approaches, we're the ones that have done that as well.

2997 So it's working together and I think that you have the impetus of a national database that's being developed by The Assembly of First Nations and I think that if they were to expand the scope of that and understand the complexity of it, then I think that that would be the beginning of a good database.

2998 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: And can I ask one follow-up question, please?

2999 You spoke about doing community consultations and I believe you said with service providers in a community. Is that right?

3000 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. We'll go in, we'll open the door for -- if the service provider would be Telus or whether it's Shaw or whether it's an internet -- you know, an ISP, we will go in, first of all, and describe to the community what type of solution we're looking at, how it'll work for them so they fully understand and then they pass a Band Council resolution to support that vendor.

3001 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: And in your experience, do the service providers, these telecom service providers, ask about First Nation interest in ownership of telecom infrastructure, or is it very much that the service provider provides the service and the Indigenous communities are simply consumers?

3002 MS. WILLIAMS: The relationship between the telcos and your other service providers, they've expanded their knowledge and their understanding, so they're more open to understanding that we want to also take advantage of economic opportunities that may be created and also we, with the Pathways, ask them to, you know, look at their procurement policy when they're dealing with any of our communities.

3003 We also ask them to reduce their costs of service if they get a major contribution.

3004 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Thank you. Gunalchéesh.

3005 THE CHAIRPERSON: So the final question will go to Vice Chair Scott and then we will give you an opportunity to add anything further.

3006 VICE CHAIR SCOTT: Thank you. Commissioner Anderson took half my question, but I think I'll still ask because you've spoken a lot about economic reconciliation and opportunities for economic engagement.

3007 I did want to know what you have -- when you say that, what do you have top of mind? Are you thinking primarily of participation in the digital economy and all the opportunities that come with being online or are you thinking more about Indigenous ownership of infrastructure and being the entity providing service, or I think you also mentioned procurement in your remarks today.

3008 So do you have a ranking or a sense of how those things fit on a priority scale?

3009 MS. WILLIAMS: Enabling participation through access to internet is extremely important, first of all, although I'm sure that there's some discussion, in Manitoba, for an example, of having their own telecom, you know. And it's just that that's somewhat overwhelming to try and approach that.

3010 But I think more enabling access to opportunities and being able to manage your business by having access to internet. Probably also -- you know, we are all facing an educational barrier, right. And to position us and have access to that education to equip us with the knowledge to be able to actively participate in economic development and business development is very important.

3011 THE CHAIRPERSON: Great. Well, maybe I can jump in and thank you for doing this microphone dance with us this morning, turning into this afternoon, and thank you for the written submissions, thank you for your slide presentation and your remarks as well this morning. Thank you for taking the time to be here with us.

3012 We will give you the last word if there's anything else that you would like to share.

3013 MS. WILLIAMS: I think my -- the last word is I'm so community-based, community-driven and so knowledgeable on our communities that sometimes maybe I miss sharing the big picture. But when I said this is the lifeblood of our community is having access to internet to move us forward in all aspects of our life, economic development, education, health, welfare, all of those areas, that I can't underscore the importance.

3014 And somehow or another, I think that if you could find a way of also structuring an advisory group that could help to keep you apprised of what's happening in our nations, I think it would be helpful because it's -- you know, we work there, we live there, we've lived there, but it's complex.

3015 You know, I listened to the presentations this morning and I'm thinking there's a lot of gaps in knowledge and yet you're major decisionmakers, so I think, you know, take advantage if there's a recommendation tier to engage a national board as well. Thank you.

3016 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you so much. Thank you again.

3017 MS. MOORE: Thank you. We'll adjourn for lunch and we will resume at 1:15.

3018 Thank you, everybody.

--- Upon recessing at 12:10 p.m.

--- Upon resuming at 1:16 p.m.

3019 MS. MOORE: Welcome back everybody. So to begin this afternoon's proceeding, just to let you know that Lorraine Rousseau will not be presenting this afternoon, so we will proceed with the next presentation. So over to you, Mr. Hopkins. Please introduce yourself, and you will have -- I'm sorry, I just want to check the time. Sorry about that. You will have 10 minutes for your presentation, thank you.

3020 MR. HOPKINS: Hello everyone. And hello to the new Commissioners. You don't see this every day in the Yukon where we get a new slate of Commissioners, so welcome.

3021 Now, we met at one of your previous CRTC telecom competition hearings here in Whitehorse when I appeared before you 25 years ago. Back in 1996 I set up a long distance wireless network without subsidy to provide home phone service to the remote unserved community of Tagish, 120 kilometres from Whitehorse and was strictly prohibited by CRTC policy and direction at the time from providing service to the public. I was working as a manager at Polarcom, one of the very first internet service providers in the Yukon, when there were over 100 contemporary ISP startups in the north.

3022 There used to be a healthy, friendly, competitive environment among the ISPs for service. Polarcom went on through growth and acquisition to include over 3,500 internet subscribers located throughout the Yukon Territory. Over the years, I have worked for Ice Wireless, building cell phone towers and deploying 3G/LTE systems in the Yukon and Northwest Territories and I've done some really cool community building technology for SSi in Northwest Territories and Nunavut.

3023 I set up and still operate the first commercial FM radio stations in the Yukon and set up numerous community faith based, ethnic, radio stations and TV stations, and Indigenous radio and TV stations across Canada for clients. My company is the only Canadian manufacturer of emergency alert systems capable of relaying Alert Ready messages in Indigenous dialects for the broadcast sector. At that hearing, many years ago, I remember having a good conversation with the other batch of Commissioners about the challenges of providing telecommunications services in the north.

3024 I also remember they were sympathetic to the plight of rural and remote communities and were keen to ensure that these areas had access to telecom services and opportunities. Why is there a lack of competition? This question comes up often. Simple truth is, unfair CRTC policy from previous administration terminated any hope of real competition long ago by the old guard. CRTC policy of exclusively favouring Northwestel has the effect of putting the fox in charge of the hen house without any supervision. Rinse, repeat. I say this after 30 years' experience in the telecom industry.

3025 Northwestel has no real competition to worry about and charges whatever it wants without fear of losing customers. This lack of competition also means Northwestel has no incentive whatsoever to invest in new technologies, increase network speed, or offer lower prices. Northwestel is the only option for many in the North, leading to a lack of choice and higher prices.

3026 Direct subsidies have hurt the Yukon and the north by driving out competition, lowering expectations from users and causing years of pain and suffering to Canadian citizens. Yukon government showed unethical favouritism at the guidance of CRTC, and was not -- favouritism to Northwestel, and was not transparent or fair in their dealings. They fail to allow an environment that encourages competition or innovation, and continues to fail to provide consumers with a fair and open market.

3027 The Yukon has a terrible reputation in the telecom sector as being closed for business. Yukon government proactively drives out competition by providing sole source contracts only to their special friends -- not just in the telecom sector. This is across the board. It is extremely disappointing the Yukon government continues to be hostile to entrepreneurial Yukoners.

3028 The Yukon government must realize that healthy competition and alternative providers helps create a more vibrant economy with improved services and better prices and choices for customers.

3029 Subsidies. Red tape and bloated government bodies are a major inhibitor to efficient public policy implementation. It would not be wise to suggest collect a fee to offset competition and then Northwestel is going to give this back as a rebate to customers minus an administrative fee requiring more red tape, larger government bodies to administer these programs and even more bureaucracy. You know, our planet cannot no longer sustain and support this wasteful model of providing redundant services.

3030 I'd like to know more about CRTC subsidies. How much did CRTC and the Government of Canada give Elon Musk to provide my home in Tagish with superior internet service? That is approximately 30 times faster download and over 60 times -- 60 times faster than upload speeds than the unreliable glitchy DSL service provided by Northwestel? A simple question. The other on is, how many dollars has the monopoly telecom provider been gifted in the last 20 years from CRTC with absolutely "no strings attached", and this was supposed to benefit Yukoners?

3031 Subsidies mostly benefit newcomers to the north that recently arrived and do very little for the years and decades of pain and suffering to the people and Indigenous communities that lived here for many generations.

3032 Reconciliation. Reconciliation starts with acknowledging the harms done and providing reparations to those affected. CRTC should start fresh, we've got new Commissioners here -- CRTC should start fresh by issuing a sincere written apology, recognizing the negative impact its previous policies have negatively affected Indigenous People, innovators and small business owners.

3033 Economic reconciliation. Previous CRTC caused and directly enabled this crippling policy at the expense of Canadians. Is the current CRTC administration giving out refunds to the people that are no longer here, that were denied opportunity, that were exploited? Who is getting this payout; Indigenous people, long-time Yukoners, or recent immigrants? It would be helpful for the CRTC to share and publish the scoring metrics for payments and reparations.

3034 At this time, it is unclear how many First Nations people are in senior positions in the Yukon Government or the telecom industry. However, it is clear First Nation people are under-represented in these positions. This is especially concerning given that First Nations make up close to 25 percent of the population, yet only 15 percent of the Yukon Government workforce. This clearly shows that First Nations people are being left out of these key decision-making positions and not being given the same access to opportunities as other groups.

3035 This is an issue that needs to be addressed and rectified in order to ensure that First Nation people have the same access to opportunities as everyone else.

3036 CRTC accomplishments. Canadian taxpayers paid for the Alaska Highway fibre, including the Mackenzie Valley and Dempster fibre up to the border at Beaver Creek, Yukon Territory, yet Canadians are not allowed to fully utilize this capacity, especially during network-wide outages from several, for example, severed cable to the south. Why is there a secret backhaul arrangement benefiting the country of the United States of America, yet Yukon, Canadian citizens, going about their lawful business and businesses, continue to pay for this, and then are denied by withholding these critical emergency alert -- emergency services.

3037 These are big accomplishments sanctioned by the CRTC that benefit foreigners that do not live in Canada, do not even pay taxes in Canada.

3038 I got a question. How many -- how much money in cash does the CRTC have in your pocket right now? Just curious. How much cash?

3039 The reason being we have internet outages quite regularly here and I just went for lunch with my colleague and, at the restaurant, they had this sign pasted to the door --

3040 MS. MOORE: Excuse me, Mr. Hopkins, you have one minute left in your presentation.

3041 MR. HOPKINS: Thank you. Got it.

3042 Sorry the internet is down. We just are accepting cash or e-transfer at the moment. Thank you. Going to include this in the submission.

3043 So this happens regularly. I carry $1,000 cash with me because when I come to town it costs me $150 in gas, I have to buy medication, and if I go to a store and the gas station and there -- I get a sign like this, I'm stuck in Whitehorse like everybody else.

3044 This cripples our economy. You know, America first, America first, America first.

3045 Conclusion. Affordability and reliability will be solved when there is a level playing field that is open to all. This means that all people and companies have equal access to resources and technology and that the prices of products and services are equal, fair and competitive. Thank you.

3046 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr. Hopkins. We appreciate your written submissions and you being here with us today to talk about your views on affordability and competition, reliability and reconciliation.

3047 I will turn things over to Vice Chair Scott to lead the questions for the CRTC. Thank you.

3048 VICE CHAIR SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. Hopkins.

3049 So you've raised a number of important concerns. I would say some of them probably fall more squarely within the framework of the CRTC than some others, so I think probably the best use of our time is I'd like to drill down on a couple of questions that fall within the scope.

3050 So you made a number of references to ensuring a level playing field. We've heard a lot this week about the importance in many parties' minds of opening up wholesale framework, so wholesale high-speed access framework. Beyond that regulatory measure, what are some of the other specifics you have in mind for ensuring an even playing field?

3051 MR. HOPKINS: Make it a level playing field. This is not a level playing field. You talk about wholesale rates. What a scam, man. What a scam.

3052 You know, Northwestel overcharges. They sell -- their wholesale rates are more than their retail rates. There was a study done not too long ago. Big Mac in Toronto, $4.35. Big Mac in Yukon retail $4.65 if Northwestel was selling hamburgers. If Northwestel was selling wholesale hamburgers, it would be $65. A four year old knows that a Big Mac does not sell for $65. That is so unfair.

3053 VICE CHAIR SCOTT: Should we show that in the record as a desire for ongoing retail rate regulation as well as a review of wholesale pricing? Would that be fair?

3054 MR. HOPKINS: No. The wholesale pricing -- I went through five years -- SSi Micro, Ice Wireless, we all went through this procedure with the old administration. We went through all this, endless stuff.

3055 You know how much money it costs in gas to come from Tagish to appear before these meetings and hotel rooms and I'm paying this out of my pocket and everybody else that has to come to your meetings and do this.

3056 We went through this whole wholesale thing and then, finally, the CRTC said Northwestel is not providing us with the -- we're going to set the prices. So you did set the wholesale prices. And then your last -- the last Commissioner says, oh, the CRTC has made a mistake. Five years of work, gone. And then Northwestel gets off the hook and overcharges us yet again.

3057 There is no competition because of that. That is exactly why there's no competition here.

3058 VICE CHAIR SCOTT: Moving on to the issue of subsidies. You've obviously noted some concerns about potential for subsidies to have an unfair impact across the incumbent and the competitors. Do you have thoughts on how specifically a subsidy could be designed to minimize any potential favouritism?

3059 MR. HOPKINS: Get rid of subsidies. Let the market decide this. If you want a socialist fascist government, go to Cuba.

3060 The idea that we get subsidies for everything, this drives out competition. The SSis and the Ice Wirelesses of the world, the reason why they're not competitive is because they don't get the subsidy. The only reason that some of these businesses stay in business like Northwestel -- if Northwestel had no subsidy, they would be gone. Exclusively giving sole-source subsidies to your friends, that's wrong.

3061 VICE CHAIR SCOTT: Thank you.

3062 On the issue of outages, can you comment on how refunds for outages could serve as an effective tool both for treating customers fairly and potentially for incentivizing investment in redundant resilient networks?

3063 MR. HOPKINS: Right. So outages. So I worked on the ISP, like I said before.

3064 Things happen. Equipment breaks. Lightning strikes. You know, you do your best effort. Stuff just blows up. It happens. And any outage -- when that would happen, we would send a thing out to our customers, hey, something blew up. We're sorry. I don't even recall if Polarcom ever offered a refund.

3065 The reason why you don't need to legislate refunds to people, if somebody is providing shitty -- excuse me, if somebody is providing sub-standard service and they're constantly going on and off and, you know, breaking, then in a competitive environment I would say, "Hey, I'm going to somebody else that can provide that service".

3066 So we don't need a regulatory regime of refunds and service agreements to give people back money. Things happen. Let the market decide. Let the consumer say, hey, I want to go with this company because they're providing good service. I do not want to go with this company because they're providing bad service.

3067 We don't need to have another 100 government employees sitting around deciding about who is going to get a refund. That's just stupid, man, in my opinion.

3068 VICE CHAIR SCOTT: In your opinion, do you see any value in establishing an affordability standard?

3069 MR. HOPKINS: Affordability standard? You can't even keep up with inflation now.

3070 I don't know if anybody noticed, 150,000 government employees are on strike that are trying to get a little bit of money to cover the extra thing. No, inflation's going like this. So by trying to regulate the market, I think you're going down the wrong road on that. We should be letting the market decide this.

3071 And you know, when somebody does good work, then they get rewarded for it. They don't do good work, you don't get my money. And the same thing goes with competitive services.

3072 You know, we take a look at Starlink. I have the choice that I signed up for Starlink. Nobody held a gun to my head and say, "Hey, you got to sign up with those guys and hope for the best". No.

3073 I said I'm going to give these guys a try or these people a try. And the consumer should be deciding who is in business, not the CRTC and not some unknown group that picks the winners and creates the losers. No.

3074 This should be the market that decides this. If somebody does a good job, then people will go back to them.

3075 VICE CHAIR SCOTT: So on that topic, then, of Starlink, could you comment on the effectiveness that Starlink is having as a competitive service provider in terms of incentivizing the incumbent to improve quality of service, pricing?

3076 MR. HOPKINS: The incumbent doesn't care about improving quality of service. If they did, they would fix things like this right now. They would fix this right now.

3077 This does not need the CRTC to come up with a fund to fix why business is shut down in the Yukon right now. The banks are shut down. The restaurants are shut down. The gas stations are shut down. Retail is shut down. Every business right now that comes back from lunch turns on their computer, no internet, well, geez, I guess we've got to go home and can't even watch Netflix now.

3078 So no, we should be incentivizing competitors to come here and set up shop. If they do a good job, the consumer will come to them and keep them in business. We don't need the CRTC to prop up a bunch of money and say, hey -- you know, lighting a fire under Northwestel and saying, hey, you've got to get your act in gear. No, no. We don't need to do that. The market will take care of itself.

3079 VICE CHAIR SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. Hopkins.

3080 Madam Chairperson, those are my questions.

3081 THE CHAIRPERSON: Great. Thank you so much.

3082 Thank you, Mr. Hopkins. Maybe we can keep you for just a few more questions --

3083 MR. HOPKINS: Go ahead. I got all day. I'm not going anywhere.

3084 THE CHAIRPERSON: We'll get your views on a couple more areas. I'm going to go to Commissioner Desmond and then we'll go to Commissioner Anderson.

3085 COMMISSIONER DESMOND: Thank you. Thank you for being here. I just have two questions.

3086 Earlier this week, we heard from a gentleman named Mr. Sokolov who made a presentation before the CRTC and he gave us a short term, medium term and long-term plan. and the long-term plan was to incentivize competition, similar to what you're talking about.

3087 He also proposed a shorter term and a medium-term resolution. And I hear what you're saying and I understand the compassion -- or the empathy and the frustration and your desire to have competition. I can certainly be understanding of that. That's not going to happen by September, so what do we do in the interim? What's the resolution now until we get competition? How can we help consumers in the short term?

3088 MR. HOPKINS: I throw this back to the CRTC. You are the experts. You tell us how you're going to make things better.

3089 When you come and ask me for things -- I go back 30 years, you asked me the same thing. I said, hey, here's a couple of things you could do. None of that happened.

3090 There used to be 100 ISPs in the north, friendly competition, they helped each other. When there was an obstacle, we would come together and we'd say, hey, we got problems. How can we do these things?

3091 That does not exist any more. Those competitors are long gone, and nobody's filled their void. Nobody will come here. This place is closed for business.

3092 You know, if you're going to do anything, make the Yukon, make Canada attractive for investment. We need to bring new talent here. Otherwise, talent and money's going to leave our country. You're going to be here, you know, without a big room to sit in. There's going to be no money floating around. The government can't sustain itself like this.

3093 The market -- you should incentivize by attracting investment here, saying, yeah, that Canada is open for business. Boy, you want to set up stuff? You want to run fibre? You want to set up 5G networks? Boy, could am in. We'll help you out with all kinds of different things.

3094 Instead, somebody will come in here and say, oh, what would you like to -- well, first you have to go to the CRTC, then you got to go to ISED, then you have to sit in a multi-year process to try to get licensing.

3095 No, they've gone. They go to places like China, they go to places like Malaysia. I've been to Bangladesh, 100 meg up/100 meg down, that's the crappy service in a hotel. So when they look at our systems here, they go, man, Canadians, you really suck when it comes to bandwidth.

3096 COMMISSIONER DESMOND: I have one more question if you don't mind and then I'll pass it over to my colleague.

3097 MR. HOPKINS: Sure.

3098 COMMISSIONER DESMOND: In your comments today, you shared with us your experience in the broadcasting industry and setting up television and radio stations, working with ISPs, so you bring a whole breadth of experience to the table.

3099 You've also identified the importance of involving Indigenous people in decision-making. Can you give us a suggestion -- I've heard your frustrations, but can you identify a suggestion for how we could incentivize service providers that are Indigenous owned?

3100 MR. HOPKINS: It doesn't matter if they're Indigenous-owned service providers. As soon as you start making race-based decisions, man, you're going down the wrong road, man. You're going down the wrong road. You start making different classes, making different rules, different groups, different resources, different funds, you know, man, no way, man.

3101 Canada's a multicultural country. We're one country. We're not a whole bunch of little tiny government agencies all trying to play off of each other. If you want to really make things better, treat everybody equally. Everybody has got the same equal opportunity, not just, you know, hey, because of your genetic percentile, you get more money. Oh, you don't have that percentile? You get less money. No, that's very, very bad.

3102 COMMISSIONER DESMOND: Okay. Thank you very much.

3103 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: This is a poorly-timed question because I'm asking you about something that you mentioned in your submissions that is race-based, so --

3104 MR. HOPKINS: Please.

3105 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Okay. You note in your submissions today that First Nations people make up close to 25 percent of the population, but then you talk about the under-representation of Indigenous people both at a government level and at a telecom level, and specifically in senior positions.

3106 So I'm just wondering why you think that having adequate representation for Indigenous people at senior leadership positions within telcos is important? That's my question first and then I'll have a follow-up

3107 MR. HOPKINS: Why is that important?

3108 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Yeah. I mean, I don't disagree, but I'd like to hear your views.

3109 MR. HOPKINS: I'm not sure how to answer that. I've put down that it's important that everybody gets equal access. Right now you do not have equal access.

3110 Indigenous people -- go walk around the riverbanks here, go to 4th and Alexander. You want to see representation of First Nations? Go to the prisons. Go to female Indigenous prisoners. Take a look at what kind of over-representation they have in the federal prison system right now.

3111 No, we should not be trying to do stuff on race based. It should be based on merit. Who does the best work, who can provide those services? Who can provide that guidance?

3112 Just by pulling out the race card and saying, hey, you know, you've got a certain percentile, you get more status. No way, man. It ain't gonna work.

3113 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Okay. Thank you.

3114 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks very much, Mr. Hopkins. We will turn things over to you to add anything you'd like to add before closing off.

3115 MR. HOPKINS: How long do I have?

3116 THE CHAIRPERSON: We are at time.

3117 MR. HOPKINS: Yeah. Gee, where do you start?

3118 You know, 30 years I've been coming to these CRTC hearings and, you know, the other part, you know, just because you're First Nation does not mean you get preference.

3119 A case in point, the Yukon Government ran fibre through Tagish in 2000. I was blacklisted from the government, not allowed to do business. It was told to me through umpteen channels. I called the Director of Telecommunications, and I said, "Hey, how come I'm blacklisted on working on any of this communications stuff?". And their response was they thought that was better that way.

3120 And then we talked about some other things, and I said, "Well, what about First Nation Indigenous people in this area when you're running the fibre optic? How come there's no training opportunities available?".

3121 And they said that the government policy at that time was that the First Nations were better off collecting firewood and brushing the side of the road. That was what the government says.

3122 And you know, when you start talking about opportunities and opening up things, you've got to start from being open and honest and being transparent. CRTC and Government of Canada does not have a good reputation as far as transparency goes and you just take a look at some of these projects.

3123 The only people that are getting money right now is based on the race card? Get real, man.

3124 You know, I want to say something really quick. As a broadcaster, I work in radio, TV, as you know. And right now, just so you know, the emergency alert system that's put on by Pelmorex, the alert ready system with the internet down, that is not working in the Yukon right now.

3125 You're not getting wireless emergency alerts on your cell phone. The radio, TV stations, the cable companies are not receiving those wireless -- those emergency alerts.

3126 But anyhow, as a broadcaster, you know, with rich media now, 4K TV, 8K TV, I can't do that in Canada. I have to leave Canada. And going to a place like Alaska and, you know, setting up shop there, they have Class D radio licences. You don't have to be an American citizen.

3127 The U.S. is open for business. I can set up an LPFM station in the U.S. I can access this internet service that we bought and paid for that's going down the Alaska Highway right now. And I cannot do that in Canada.

3128 So anyhow, America first. That's what CRTC is telling everybody in this room right now. That it's okay for the Americans, a foreign company -- a foreign country that doesn't even live here, that it's okay for them to use our communications infrastructure. The CRTC allows that, and yet a Canadian cannot access that same service? That is so wrong. Very wrong.

3129 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you for your views --

3130 MR. HOPKINS: I'm not finished.

3131 THE CHAIRPERSON: We are over time. But thank you again for participating.

3132 MR. HOPKINS: Thank you, too.

3133 Like you say, you are the new Commissioners, and when I come back here in 20 years when they wheel me in here in 20 years from now, I'll be referring to you as the old guard and we'll see what you have done in the next 20 years. Thank you very much.

3134 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

3135 MS. MOORE: Thank you very much for your participation. We'll take one moment to let our next presenters settle in. Thank you.

--- Pause

3136 MS. MOORE: Thank you. We will proceed with the next presentation.

3137 Please introduce yourself and you have 15 minutes for your presentation. Thank you.

Presentation

3138 MR. RONDEAU: Yes, good afternoon. Rob is a hard act to follow. I must say he is also a part of our organization, a member of our executive, so he always has something interesting to say.

3139 My name is Roger Rondeau. I did most of the intervention on this particular issue, so I will be presenting the submission.

3140 First, I would like to say thank you to the Kwanlin Dün First Nations for this spectacular venue that they have here, the Longhouse, which is part of their and our tradition for many, many years and is a very interesting building.

3141 Second, I would like to say welcome to you folks to our territory and our capital city.

3142 Bill Polonsky here will introduce himself, and he's going to do the executive summary, and then pass it on to me.

3143 MR. POLONSKY: Good day. Thanks for hearing our summary here today.

3144 My name is Bill Polonsky. I'm Vice-President of the Utilities Consumer Group Society.

3145 The Yukon Utilities Consumers' Group has intervened in most Northwestel and Yukon related procedures by the CRTC since our inception in 1993. We take a consumer-oriented approach to our interventions.

3146 It is our understanding that this particular process addresses the longstanding issues affecting telecommunications in the north, i.e. Yukon, Northwest Territories, Nunavut, northern B.C. and Alberta. These remain internet reliability, affordability, along with predictability, high-quality services, i.e. adequate and quality services. CRTC action is also required with the same concerns for cellular service in the north.

3147 The Government of Canada has directed the CRTC to require large companies to give access to competitors at regulated rates so they can offer better internet prices and more choices to all Canadians. The CRTC must take immediate action to have more timely and improved wholesale rates available.

3148 The Canadian government also directed the CRTC to increase mobile wireless competition, more affordable cell phone plans by improving hybrid Mobile Virtual Networks Operator, MVNO, model as necessary, including a full MVNO model.

3149 The Auditor General of Canada recently reported access to internet and mobile services is not equal for all Canadians. 90.9 percent of households had access to minimum connection speeds across Canada, but only 42.9 percent of households on First Nation reserves had access to these speeds and only 59.5 percent of households in rural and remote areas had access at those speeds.

3150 Neither ISED nor the CRTC are currently measuring affordability, a key barrier to connectivity and access. Neither ISED nor the CRTC could tell Canadians whether the affordability of internet and mobile cellular connectivity had improved over the past two years.

3151 Only 39.5 percent of available connectivity funding had been distributed by January 2023, 949 million of the 2.4 billion available. Only 26 percent of the CRTC's Broadband Fund and 25 percent of the federal government's Universal Broadband Fund had been disbursed.

3152 The government's national broadband internet service availability map was found not only to be out of date, but also sometimes inaccurate. In some cases, it has meant that households or communities without coverage could not be shown to have coverage.

3153 Now I'll give it over to Roger.

3154 MR. RONDEAU: Before I start the intervention, I would like to tell you that the Utilities Consumers Group is a not-for-profit organization. We run on bootleg money; in other words, 95 or more percent of our interventions are done pro bono by the people who are invested and there are only four or five of us, and so our capacity is very limited.

3155 So I'll start the intervention on the internet. And what we know about what is taking place right now is that prices for internet services in our four larger communities of Whitehorse, Dawson City, Watson Lake and Haines Junction have rates that are higher than -- much higher than other jurisdictions in southern Canada. Smaller communities -- the rest of them, they're listed here -- you've heard from some of them, the First Nations and other people from these communities, so you're getting firsthand ideas of what their issues are, including Atlin having next to no connectivity.

3156 The first four larger centres' internet packages offered by Northwestel include, and I've -- the monthly usage plans for Internet 5 is 49.95 per month with 50 gigabyte and download speed of 5 Mbps, upload 1 Mbps. Two, internet 100 at 139.95 per month with 500 gigabytes and a download speed of 100 Mpbs and 10 Mbps. It doesn't even cover the 150. For that, you need to go to the $219 per month unlimited with download speed of up to 500 Mpbs and an upload of 20 Mbps.

3157 For the remaining 13 communities, it is far more severe. Right now, these communities do not have access or very limited -- there are a few places that do have the fibre into their areas. I'll let you know a little bit more about that later.

3158 So the community people are all on what is called Internet 15. It's a DSL program. And the usage is 300 gigabytes for $103 per month with a download speed of 15 megabytes and upload speed of 1 megabyte. Options to add 75 Gb data for an extra $40 per month or 150 Gb data for $80 per month. This is a total of $183.99 for a token 450 gigabyte. After that, guess what? Overages. A nasty word to these people. It comes in at $2.50 per gigabyte.

3159 Starlink appears to now be available for $140 per month for high-speed, low latency broadband internet in remote and rural locations of Canada. But it has a very high hardware startup cost, that being $759.

3160 Xplornet, which has been here for quite some time and has downgraded their plans in the Yukon greatly, they have two programs, 150 gigabytes for 114.99 per month and 250 for 134 per month. This is now offered only in the periphery of some of the larger communities but appears to no longer have linkage into the rural locations. They're satellite as well.

3161 Ice Wireless, which you've heard from, has low data programs without wi-fi, a starter program for 49 per month for 50 Gbs and $10 data overage, surf 79 plus $10 data overage or stream 99 plus 10 gigabyte data overage. This is offered in various Nunavut, northern Quebec and certain locations mostly around the periphery of Whitehorse.

3162 This data overage charge that Ice Wireless is charging demonstrates very clearly the disparity of wholesale bandwidth. Northwestel can do it for $2.50 a gigabyte. In order for Ice to compete, they have to charge $10.

3163 Meanwhile, some of the best rates in southern Canada range from Altima, 44 per month unlimited, to Oxxio low-cost plan, $50 per month, no frills, but high speed. And then Bell, $115 per month, unlimited, 1.5 Gbs download speed.

3164 Videotron, which we're hearing a lot about and I will mention them down the line, has plans for $53 monthly for unlimited data with 30 Mbps download to $73 a month plan with unlimited data and download speeds of 40 Mbps.

3165 I've given you the websites that you can see all of these if you want to go into them to make sure my research was done properly.

3166 We also know that Canada ranks exceptionally low on the spectrum -- pun intended -- of world internet prices. High telecommunication rates stifle our economic activity and lower the standards of activity for health care, education, government and banking services, especially in these small communities.

3167 Northwestel has told you in their intervention all we need to do to fix the problem is the ability for us to provide a better, faster internet subsidized, of course, by broadband, or various other funds provided, including Yukon Territorial grants. In our view, Northwestel is terrified of losing its monopoly.

3168 MS. MOORE: I'm sorry to interrupt you. You have two minutes left in your presentation. Thank you.

3169 MR. RONDEAU: Northwestel controls the market power. Public money has been doled out to Northwestel for years, the Broadband Fund, high-cost serving area fund, fibre funds, as well as numerous YTG goals like the redundancy line going up the highway to the NWT. This demonstrates it is absolutely necessary now to open up this infrastructure to all players.

3170 As well, the end of this exclusive agreements, as well as the scrutiny of contract agreements for capacity infrastructure.

3171 What I mean by that is the example of the fibre that was sold to 13 First Nations and then released to Northwestel for 20 years, so they control it still.

3172 What is needed? It's obvious we need reconciliation both for the First Nations and for the rest of us northerners to achieve the goals of Telecommunication Act and the new direction of the Government of Canada.

3173 There's immediate need for the CRTC to mandate bandwidth rates, as competition is almost negligible in the Yukon. From this, we can infer that this little competition is the main reason why our rates are so high. Lack of competition also leads to inefficiencies, lack of innovation, and failure to respond quickly and vigilantly.

3174 As you've seen from the interventions from the First Mile, the SSi Micro -- I've forgotten one more -- but they are innovators, these people. They've been around for a while, and they are innovators. They are the ones that are going to make things happen.

3175 MS. MOORE: I'm sorry to interrupt again. I'll ask you to say some final words and then we will go to questioning. Thank you.

3176 MR. RONDEAU: I'll just finish what I have about the internet. I won't get onto the cell phones, but you have that in front of you anyway.

3177 I did want to tell you a story, so maybe you'll make time down the line. It'll take a few minutes, but it's very important.

3178 Most intervenors and ratepayers that have reached out to the CRTC as well as the many locals we have spoken to have identified unequivocally that northerners support competition.

3179 UCG also notes that Northwestel was established in 1979 by its owner, Canadian National Railways, spinning off the northwest assets and operations of Canadian National Telecommunications. This was part of the devolution of responsibilities from Canada to the Yukon.

3180 Northwestel was then sold to Bell Canada Enterprises, parent of Bell BCE Inc., on December 1st, 1988. Since then, Northwestel were paid for by various forms of government transfers, funding grants, including measures taken by the CRTC. What is needed is the next part of our intervention. You can read that as well as our intervention on cellular.

3181 THE CHAIRPERSON: Great. Thank you so much, and thank you for being here.

3182 And we've taken note of, as you said, that you have limited capacity and you're here and you have your detailed submissions, and we will leave some time at the end not just for closing remarks but to hear the story as well. We'll make sure we leave time for that.

3183 I will turn things over to Commissioner Desmond to kick off the questioning for the CRTC. Thank you.

3184 COMMISSIONER DESMOND: Good afternoon, and thank you for being here.

3185 I just have a few questions this afternoon. I did want to touch on the issue of competition, which you've emphasized as a priority in the north.

3186 You've submitted in your written comments that the majority of people in the Yukon want some type of competition and that it's time to level the playing field.

3187 You also indicate in your written submissions that, in the spirit of reconciliation, we must include and be mindful of the First Nations in our territories.

3188 Can you kind of expand on how you see those two things working together?

3189 MR. RONDEAU: I don't really want to speak for the First Nations, but any person in the Yukon is welcome to be in our organization. All I know is that there needs to be some type of reconciliation with the First Nations.

3190 COMMISSIONER DESMOND: Do you see telecommunication policy and the decisions the CRTC can make being a mechanism to advancing that reconciliation?

3191 MR. RONDEAU: Perhaps you can set up a particular branch for this on its own, but we don't want to make too much bureaucracy happen either.

3192 COMMISSIONER DESMOND: Thank you.

3193 In your comments today at paragraph 9, you talk about Starlink and you identify what's available, what Starlink is providing to customers and at what cost.

3194 I'm wondering if, in your view, the impact of satellites has changed the landscape? Has it improved competition? Do you think that this will positively impact the competitive market here in the Yukon or in the far north?

3195 MR. RONDEAU: No, I don't think it has at all. It will help some mining companies that are off in the boonies and a few people that are on the land, but the greater majority of us won't be affected now. Hopefully in the long term this will prove beneficial to everybody.

3196 COMMISSIONER DESMOND: You're thinking over the long term it might be a solution, but it's not a short-term solution.

3197 Okay. Thank you.

3198 I had a question around affordability. You do speak about affordability, particularly in your written comments, and you note that northern users do require reliable, affordable and predictable services. Many intervenors that we've heard from this week talk about the need for a subsidy and maybe establishing a standard of affordability so I wanted to give you the opportunity to comment on that as well.

3199 MR. RONDEAU: Certainly. We see affordability aligning with two other issues, competition and some type of subsidy. Competition will be our long, maybe even hopefully our medium-term goal to bring in affordability.

3200 I've talked about the innovation of these companies that are trying to get their foot in the door already, including First Nations people.

3201 Looking at affordability, this is a very difficult term to define and to get a firm grip on. Each person, each family would have their own circumstances and day-to-day living experiences. Each community is also different. And each of the territories, as you've heard very clearly, are very, very different. Yukon, we are fortunate here because we will soon be connected to fibre. We should be already.

3202 So how do you set a reasonable standard for affordability? I hope you can do it because I certainly wouldn't be able to do it.

3203 Subsidies, on the other hand, can help this very much, and this is the third actor in our movie. It could also be a logical nightmare, especially if you try to implement such thing as low-income fund or whatever because there is no real simple way to determine this either. The cost to develop and implement such a plan will take away from a lot of the money that could be given in a flat rate to everybody, which is very easy to put in and maintain. Some people have mentioned $20. I would say whatever will get us to an equal footing to the 110 in southern jurisdictions. So whatever is needed to bring us on equal footing. That's what the flat rate could be and it can be just -- it can just come off your bill every month to whichever service provider you choose.

3204 COMMISSIONER DESMOND: Thank you. I just have two more questions and then I'll turn it back to the Chair.

3205 In your submission and I think today as well you've talked about the necessity for reimbursement for -- reimbursement. But I did want to ask you about refunds and if you felt that when there is a service outage, or maybe when service is not provided as promised, do you think that the Commission should be considering refunds as part of its resolution for this hearing?

3206 MR. RONDEAU: That should be a given from the service provider as a good corporate citizen. Some, as you heard within the last few days, do offer it automatically. Northwestel appears not to.

3207 For our point of view, the issue of overcharges are much more severe and an important issue than the reimbursement of outages.

3208 COMMISSIONER DESMOND: Actually, that was my last question. I wanted to talk to you about overage charges, and I think at paragraph 39 of your written submission this morning, or this afternoon, you talk about extra hidden charges as well. So I just wondered if you might give a little bit more information about what extra hidden charges you're referring to.

3209 MR. RONDEAU: This is mostly with the mobile, where you have roaming charges and there are other ways that the telcos strangle or throttle the internet and cause overages to be even larger than what they should be. Maybe now I can tell my story, if you don't mind?

3210 COMMISSIONER DESMOND: Certainly.

3211 MR. RONDEAU: This came from a single mother, a parent of three, two in school in Carmacks with her and one in Whitehorse going to Grade 12. She is currently taking her Master's degree and working at the same time, mostly through remote, so she needs some type of remote connection.

3212 The best program she could get was the $183 one I told you about, and for the last year she has been paying $300 per month, which she paid, and she didn't find that -- she found it a lot, but she could deal with that. This last month she received a bill for $1,200. Talk about rate shock.

3213 Now, with this she received a disconnection notice if she did not pay the bill. So she thought about it for a while, paid the bill, and then she got another notice saying that she was disconnected after she had paid it -- she did paid the bill when she got her finances together. She got another notice saying she was disconnected and she would have to pay another $500 to reconnect and $600 in advance. Now, how can anyone, besides a single mother, ever afford this kind of thing.

3214 I phoned -- when I heard this story, I phoned Northwestel, and they told me that there was nothing they could do. This was the front desk person. So I said, can I speak to a supervisor? And she also said that they don't have anything to do that will help on this circumstance because it is their policy to charge the full charge. If they let one go, then they open the can of worms for other people.

3215 So that demonstrates just one overcharge issue that we have here.

3216 Before I forget as well, when we were speaking about subsidies, I forgot to mention that we believe that we should have a lifeline instead of a low-income subsidy, we have a lifeline plan where you apply, and you can get the service for a nominal fee. This should be a simple means test, not an application, because there may be different plans that are needed for different people as well. If you're a family, you need a lot more data, for example. So it's a workable project.

3217 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for that. Thank you for sharing the story.

3218 I guess just before turning things back to you to see if there's anything further that you would like to add that you haven't covered yet, perhaps I could just ask, it's clear that you've read Northwestel's submissions or you're familiar with them? You've talked about the overage charges, I know we asked you about refunds for outages. Is there anything else that stands out to you that we should be asking Northwestel about tomorrow when they appear before us?

3219 MR. RONDEAU: We'll have to think about that. We can't come up with anything right now except the cellular service we have to deal with with Bell, not with Northwestel, because they have all the service in the Yukon for cellular.

3220 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay, fair enough. Thank you.

3221 I will turn things back to you -- oh, one quick question and then we'll turn things back over to you. Commissioner Anderson?

3222 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Thank you. And thank you for sharing this story. It was a good story for us to hear and have an example from the north about overage fees.

3223 And so I just wanted to note, and in the event that you're not prepared to respond today, we do allow for a period for written submissions to be provided by May 9^th, should you wish. But we do have a policy, the internet code policy, that provides certain conditions and requirements to try to protect customers from bill shock. And I'd be really interested to know if you thought that there were provisions, or maybe certain requirements above and beyond the internet policy that might be helpful to customers in the north who, as you state, sometimes do experience bill shock. So any further thoughts you have on that would be really interesting.

3224 MR. RONDEAU: I would just say that we would like you to direct Northwestel to reimburse all overages for the last year that they have charged in these communities, because they have an agreement with you guys to have fibre in these communities and they haven't held up that agreement.

3225 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. And we will turn things over to you for the last word.

3226 MR. RONDEAU: I think I just gave you my last word.

3227 THE CHAIRPERSON: Excellent. I just want to say thank you again for participating in the proceeding. We really appreciate your submissions, the information you've given us, the data, so thank you and thank you for being here with us today.

3228 MR. RONDEAU: And thanks back at you. It's good to see a bunch of young faces up there.

3229 MS. MOORE: Thank you very much for participating in this proceeding. We will take a break. We will return at 2:40, please. Thank you.

--- Upon recessing at 2:22 p.m.

--- Upon resuming at 2:38 p.m.

3230 MS. MOORE: Welcome back, everybody. We will proceed with the final presentation of the day.

3231 Please introduce yourself and you have 15 minutes for your presentation. Thank you.

Presentation

3232 MS. SOUTHWICK: Good afternoon. My name is Tosh Southwick. I'm a citizen of Kluane First Nation. My mom is Grace Southwick of Burwash Landing. My grandma was Babe Southwick of Burwash Landing. I belong to the Wolf Clan. And I'm here today with my colleague and friend and ally.

3233 MS. IVANY: My name is Cassandra Ivany. As Tosh says, I'm a colleague of hers, born and raised in Newfoundland, and have been working here in the Yukon within the realm of reconciliation and indigenization for the last 14 years.

3234 MS. SOUTHWICK: Neither Cass or I are experts in technology. I'm sure you guys have a lot of those experts and I'm sure you've heard from some of them, but what we are, are people who have worked to advance reconciliation and Indigenous self-determination for most of our careers.

3235 I've had the honour of working with or for most of the Yukon First Nations and a number of Nations outside of the Yukon. I'm a Yukon girl at heart. I probably could have left the territory for all sorts of amazing jobs, but I live here because I think this is the best place to live in the entire world.

3236 I'm really honoured to have some time with what I think is probably one of the most important topics facing the north, so I'm glad you guys came up and I really hope you've had a great time and heard some amazing things.

3237 I want to start by talking about reconciliation and the digital divide. At its core, the work of reconciliation, at least in my experience and my lived work, is about relationships. It's about building relationships. It's about bridging relationships. It's about keeping and maintaining them. It looks like doing the hard work, it looks like being uncomfortable, it looks like making big power shifts.

3238 There's this pendulum that's swinging in this country and it needs to swing faster and it needs to swing more. But it's also work that I think belongs to all Canadians in every industry in every sector. And I am really concerned about the lack of progress for reconciliation in this particular industry.

3239 Cass and I and our business partner, Davida Wood, often talk about a spectrum of reconciliation and at the very start on one end we often talk about you've got art on the walls, but that's the easy stuff, right. Unfortunately, that's where we are in telecommunications. In fact, that's really new.

3240 So we're talking about having conversations about traditional land acknowledgments in this industry when we have industries like education, justice and health care that are co-developing legislation with Indigenous groups. That's the other side of the spectrum, right.

3241 And so I think when we're talking about reconciliation, we can no longer talk about that in Canada without talking about the digital divide.

3242 There's a huge disconnect between the conversation about how do we bridge what's the reality in our Indigenous communities and bring First Nations, Inuit and Métis in this country to the rightful place of partners without talking about the digital divide.

3243 When we're talking about the aspects that are so prevalent in our communities and this deep desire, I think, to bridge all sorts of divides, we need to think about the digital divide the same way we think about housing, clean water, health care, education. And the reality is, it's so intertwined with all of those already. We can't pull them apart any more like we used to.

3244 I think the other piece that we want to just talk about in terms of reconciliation in the communities is the reality on the ground. It's incredibly difficult to be from the north and in the communities -- and we have the honour of working with a number of First Nation communities -- and see the struggles that are so easily dealt with if they had reliable, accessible, affordable internet. Like it's preventable.

3245 I get that it's challenging to deal with clean water in First Nations communities. It is not challenging to get internet. The reality is we're a leader internationally in providing education at refugee camps, but our kids couldn't get school, they couldn't even download assignments for almost two years in their communities. There's a huge disconnect in these pieces.

3246 I'm going to tell you a little bit about what happened at least for the company that we work with, that we run.

3247 When the pandemic first started, we were working for Yukon College, now Yukon University, and overnight it became apparent that education was going to hit another massive road block in the territory. Much like other parts of Canada, our schools shut down when COVID hit. Instantly, I had this feeling in my gut and I knew that our kids who were already so at risk, who already face so many barriers of going and attending in a colonial education system of reduced access, of not being able to do all these things already, we're going to have this new massive obstacle in their way. We thought, okay, you know what. We're really good at breaking trail in the Yukon. We do it all the time.

3248 We've done it with land claims. We're doing it with a whole bunch of things now. We can figure this out, right. We're a bunch of really smart people. We can figure this thing out.

3249 And so we mobilized and we got partners. Within two months, we had foundations who were bringing millions of dollars to the table. We had the Department of Education ready and willing to think about new models. We had 14 First Nations, every single one of them in two months, knew how many of their citizens didn't have a laptop, weren't connected by their household or able to drive to some point of connection and how many of the students in each grade needed what.

3250 In two months, 14 governments had that. You know who we couldn't find? A telecommunication partner. We couldn't find anybody who would help us get internet into communities so kids could sit in a parking lot and connect with their teachers or download the assignments. And that broke my heart. On so many levels, that broke my heart.

3251 So when you have companies talk about their commitment to reconciliation, I say, yeah, you've got art on the wall and I'm sure they look good. But I'm over here and I'm talking about kids who need more than a pretty picture.

3252 And then we started to look at health care and justice, all of those pieces combined. What we have right now is an embarrassing, horrific situation that's getting worse and not better, which brings us to this idea of self-determination.

3253 It is so key to have this digital divide centered around the idea of Indigenous self-determination, that idea that we have the right to manage our own affairs, to make decisions about our communities, to decide how to solve our challenges. But we continue to be at the mercy of companies who make those decisions, who decide that because we can't have internet into our communities at an affordable price, I guess our citizens can't join those Zoom meetings, I guess our citizens can't file their taxes, I guess our kids can't watch those educational videos.

3254 But we're supposed to be building our nations up. We're supposed to be attracting our citizens home. We want to keep our families home. Like in my community at Burwash Landing, our government, our council has been working to bring citizens home for a long time. That means we have citizens who want to run small businesses from there.

3255 I could not run my business that I run from Whitehorse in my home community right now because of the reliability and the affordability and the lack of service. My mom's internet goes out, it takes her three months to get somebody out there to do something about it. It's just impossible to run a business from there.

3256 So where we've made great strides in globalization and it doesn't matter necessarily where you're from in order to run a business on the web now, it matters in the north of Canada because you still can't do that from home.

3257 I think the other piece that we want to talk about -- I mean, it sounds bad, but I often laugh when it's warm up here and it's snowing down south. You get that little giggle. Like it was +30 in Montreal and then they had snow the next.

3258 The same thing happened when the Rogers outage happened. I laughed because it was total chaos for a couple of days because Rogers had a huge outage. Imagine trying to run and build a government with that daily. That's our reality in the north. Having meeting invites sent by the federal government on things like child welfare and being given a Zoom meeting and a link that you can't access and that, even if you can, you probably have one person in your First Nation government who could be on there on at the same time, which means you're all huddled into a little office. And then the internet goes out. You're done.

3259 And it's not that you don't want to engage in the conversation, it's literally that you can't. Or being a mom or family member who wants to engage in an important conversation on any part of Canadian government but can't do it because she has just been billed $800 in overages. Or being one of those houses that have never had internet connected into your building and being told it's going to cost you $2,800 just to get a line into the building so you can have internet there for the first time. There are so many obstacles, it's incredible.

3260 I think so one of the pieces about Indigenous self determination and nation-building is we can't do that well in the same time that we need to without accessible, reliable, affordable connectivity. It is a huge hindrance to nation-building activities on every aspect, from protecting our lands, to revitalizing our languages, to taking care of our most vulnerable citizens. And it's getting worse. Because now we have after Covid, one of the silver linings people will tell you is a move to more accessible services because of internet. That is a privileged assumption that people have that type of connectivity, that they can file their taxes online, that they can get a code from their bank and do online banking. Those are all privileged assumptions, because we don't have the same reality in all of our communities.

3261 So what are some solutions? I mean from our experience as a small Indigenous-owned company that supports First Nations both here and down in the south and works hard, I think, for supporting self determination, we need to level the playing field. We need to cause -- and I'm going to use the word "disruption". We're not talking about little shifts here, and I say the subsidy to me is a little shift. I'm talking about moving mountains. We need to disrupt the status quo. I think we've gotten to the point where everybody says, yes, we agree, competition is important, it needs to happen. It's not happening. So we need to disrupt it. We need to move mountains.

3262 We need to make sure -- and I think the CRTC has a huge role in this -- that partnership is authentic. That we are prioritizing Indigenous initiatives that are led or partnered with Indigenous communities but authentically. And I'm sure you've seen at Northwestel, they often will hold up a project that they're working with 14 First Nations, and I said this in our submission, that should not be confused with the distinction of having any type of power around that table in decision-making because that's not what that deal's about. And that deal is with First Nation Development Corps, who are not responsible for nation-building activity. So there is no Indigenous control in that deal. Is it a good deal for certain reasons? Sure. Is it better than what we had 15 years ago? Sure. It's art on the walls. It's not what we're talking about with disruption.

3263 When we talk about the digital divide up here, we cannot talk about a solution without building capacity. We're working with two Yukon First Nations to develop a First Nation internet service provider. I could write a Master's thesis before I could find somebody who could technically come up here and help me and tell me what an ISP is. They're unicorns. Trying to find someone who will come to the Yukon and work with Indigenous communities, it was so hard. It was incredibly challenging.

3264 If it weren't for organizations like Connect Humanity and a few others whose names I'm forgetting, but I wrote down -- sorry, I'll have to remember it -- I think we would be at a loss of how to -- I would have thrown up my hands. But because there are small organizations who are working hard to try and bridge this piece, we're getting some capacity, but it's not nearly enough. We need an Indigenous workforce in this realm.

3265 We need to dramatically increase Indigenous decision-making and participation across the board in telecommunications. We're talking about co-development, co-design of programs, initiatives, legislation. We're talking about sovereignty over connectivity. We haven't even started those conversations on a grand scale, and I think we have lots to work through. We should be concerned that we're making more progress in this country in child welfare and restitution and resolution -- and reconciliation on that file, than telecommunications. That's amazing to me.

3266 I think we -- and I go back to disruption -- we need to disrupt the monopoly. Like, I just don't know any other way through it. It's not working here. Across the board, whether that means First Nations internet service providers, whether that means disconnecting the infrastructure ownership from the retail. However, those things -- all those brilliant minds of tech people, we need to try something. We need innovative solutions to try something because it's been status quo for so long.

3267 I think I'll just end by saying in this work of trying to launch a First Nation internet service provider, we've seen a number of barriers, and I think capacity and dedicated resources and funding for Indigenous-led projects like that need to be on the horizon and we needed them yesterday. We need to start trying something new and drastic. The divide is getting bigger, not smaller --

3268 MS. MOORE: It's me. I'm sorry to interrupt. You have two minutes left in your presentation.

3269 MS. SOUTHWICK: It's okay, that was the closing statement. Thank you.

3270 MS. MOORE: Oh, awesome. Thanks.

3271 MS. SOUTHWICK: I think I'll just end by saying that I really appreciate that the hearings are being held here in the north, and I encourage everybody to spend a couple weeks in a rural, remote, Indigenous community and find out how frustrating it is to order from Amazon, let alone run a government. Gunalchéesh. That's all I've got.

3272 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Thank you for your submissions. Thank you for participating in the proceedings, and thank you for your very passionate remarks right now. We really appreciate it.

3273 So we have some questions for you. I will turn things over to Commissioner Naidoo to kick off the questions for us. Just to note, we will leave some time at the end if you'd like to add anything that we haven't covered. Thank you.

3274 COMMISSIONER NAIDOO: Yeah, thank you so much for being here. It's truly a pleasure to meet you both and to have read your submission and to see your presentation today. You painted a really vivid picture of your reality and the frustrations.

3275 You know that we've been asking the question about subsidies and, you know, those kinds of things. I'm going to leave that for the end, because while I think we've got a pretty good record as to where people stand on it, I do want to give you the opportunity to answer the question because we've asked it to everybody else. But I am going to start with engagement because I think that's exactly where you would want me to start based on your presentation.

3276 So I'm going to start right off with saying that I read your presentation -- your submission, and you mentioned that First Nations governments are ready to create a new community-based internet service provider. How do you think the CRTC can support Indigenous players to become service providers?

3277 MS. SOUTHWICK: First, I love that you're starting with engagement. I think that's awesome.

3278 My first answer to that piece would be I think we need to ask them. I think we need to get them into a room and see what needs to be done.

3279 Secondly, I think we need to ask those First Nations who have already broken that trail and created it. What would have made their job easier, what could we learn from it their pieces there? There are some fantastic organizations in B.C. that are sharing information. We need to prioritize funding. We need to be able to put up our hand and say, okay, we're ready. We shouldn't have to fight for that same amount of funding, because it's so scarce, and it's so much harder to bear. So prioritize that piece.

3280 I think make policies, CRTC holding people accountable to say, what are you doing to advance reconciliation in the area that you work? We're not talking about this fluffy stuff here. We're talking about partnering with First Nations in authentic ways, show us what you're doing and then we'll do that. I think funding like I said initiatives that are partnered with First Nations and Metis and Inuit, make sure that it's actually partnered. Make sure that there is authentic partnership there and that there's decision making. That it isn't about putting First Nations forward and saying, yes, look, we're partnering with them because they own X amount of the last little fibre that for 20 years, they're going to own this. But they have no real say in the organization. That's not decision-making. That's not self determination.

3281 And then I think help us build capacity, the technical pieces there. You know, Connect Humanity's been an organization that's going to help us run bootcamps and train up some of our citizens when we get to that point. But across the board we need expertise in this. You know, I don't even know how to set up my modems. My son you I think some of you met this morning does that remotely from Kelowna, from grad school, let alone trying to set up an ISP. What we know is our communities. What we need help with is that tech support.

3282 COMMISSIONER NAIDOO: Well, you just wrote my segue for me, so it's like we're on the same wavelength on that.

3283 I wanted to dive into the capacity you had mentioned in your written submissions that there's an imbalance in capacity between the CRTC and Indigenous peoples on telecom issues. I wanted to give you an opportunity to explain a little bit more about what you mean by that and how you think we can facilitate future capacity building with that? Is that through education? Or -- just as an example.

3284 MS. SOUTHWICK: No, that's fantastic. I should say that I was probably a little cranky when I wrote that submission, so it's probably more direct than I should have been. But I had also just tried to navigate the website to submit the submission, and that's almost as hard as getting your FAC; right? It's complex. So there's capacity just around what is the CRTC; right? When you tell me come and present at a hearing, I'm thinking a totally different kind of hearing; right? Different world views are at play.

3285 So how do we build capacity up to say to people, this is what the CRTC's mandate is, this is what the role is. Here is the resources that you guys have at your fingertips so we can look and see what those pieces are. So that would help. So yes, it's education, it's subsidies for workforce. It's about getting our folks trained up in all sorts of these pieces. It's about supporting entities like the First Nation -- or, sorry, the Indigenous Connectivity Summit. Can we have more of that? Please, please, please. Can we have it all over Canada so, you know, our folks can go? Can we write and share best practices about how to do these things and make them tangible and easy to find.

3286 We had to fire -- not fire -- we had to hire researchers to try and help us understand what the difference between a low earth orbit satellite was, radio waves -- like all of those pieces, right? We don't know it. That's not the world we live in. We had to hire folks to do that. Trying to hire them was hard, it was not easy. Trying to find them. So is there a data bank somewhere we can go to get that information?

3287 I think the other piece the CRTC can do just on the piece about capacity building is host more of these, but in community and maybe not so formal, not formal hearings; right? Like, just engage. And do that work with First Nations. I often talk about shifting the paradigm away from stakeholder status, where First Nations often are, to rightsholders, and move it towards that piece and work together that way so we can work and build our capacity together.

3288 COMMISSIONER NAIDOO: All right. You explained that really well. You're not the first group talking about engagement to come before us who have said that you envision a different type of CRTC hearing. And other groups have said that, but I don't think we've had the opportunity to actually ask you, what do you envision? How can we improve it? Can you just speak to that?

3289 MS. SOUTHWICK: So if I had a magic wand, we'd all be sitting in a circle together, we'd all have the same voice. There wouldn't be people behind us or on the other side, we'd all be together. Everybody's voice would mean the same. They'd be just as welcome to do that. We wouldn't have a prescribed -- you know, you've got 15 minutes, you've got these pieces. We would talk and we would converse and build relationship. We would eat together and solve problems together. We would set the space for honest, uncomfortable conversation, and we would do that on the premise that we want to work together for the benefit of all Canadians. And we would do it in a way that made those that come next proud, and we would disrupt things.

3290 COMMISSIONER NAIDOO: So I want to dive into that more, because I think it's a privilege to have you in front of us to be able to talk about these things directly. That is a very interesting idea. How would that be facilitated with the number of Indigenous governments that that process would have to be, you know, done with?

3291 MS. SOUTHWICK: I think, you know, B.C. is a good place to start. If you can consult and engage with First Nations, there's over 200 in B.C., then we can probably do it fairly easy in a place like the Yukon where there's 14. But I think there's lots of mechanisms to do that. I think hosting an event, a roundtable event, allows that to happen. There's ways that -- and I say this with respect -- but if we can co-develop national legislation together, I'm sure we can figure out how to have a conversation together about telecommunications.

3292 COMMISSIONER NAIDOO: Thank you. I'm going to move on now to the importance of investing in training Indigenous people. Now, we talked about capacity building. I see that as different, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you're talking about educating people about what the CRTC does so that they can then be involved in the discussions because that's important, knowing what the definitions of terms are and so on and so forth.

3293 But I'm talking about training of Indigenous people to work in the telecom industry to and to incentivize young people to stay and to continue to run the businesses in the far north. Obviously, you see that as important. What do you think that we can do to facilitate that, or if it's not the CRTC what else can be done to facilitate that, generally?

3294 MS. SOUTHWICK: Yeah, so I would say I liken it to the conversation we had in our communities years ago about educating nurses, doctors, engineers, lawyers. It needs to be focused. It needs to be strategic. It needs to be co-designed with Indigenous communities, and it needs to be held in community. We can't be sending, you know, a bunch of generations out to other places. We need to have that stuff here.

3295 I think -- we know that if we set up a First Nation internet service provider and the first time that system goes down, we need to have somebody there who can fix it. So that means training those folks and giving them the skills to troubleshoot on the ground where they need to. So we need boot camps. We need certificates and diplomas. We need a whole spectrum of training.

3296 We also need training that's going to allow folks -- because an internet service provider is not going to be a full-time job on its own. Can we give them the skills to work in other areas of that piece until it becomes big enough for that part?

3297 And then I think we also need the business side of it. How do you do the customer relations piece if you're running your own internet service provider? How do you do those pieces? I'm less concerned about that than I am about the actual equipment and the material.

3298 I also think we need folks who understand the problems with low orbit satellites. What are the challenges with those for different communities? What does that look like on the ground when you're trying to run a university, a K-to-12 program, a health centre, and a government? What does that mean? How do you do that effectively? I think the CRTC had as a role to play in building that kind of training with that focus, and I think one of the biggest things you could do is prioritize it and make sure it's done in collaboration with Indigenous communities.

3299 COMMISSIONER NAIDOO: Thank you very much for that.

3300 MS. SOUTHWICK: Cass has something.

3301 MS IVANY: Thank you. Why can't I do that?

3302 I'd like to add that I think we tend to, from a more Western perspective, tend to look at those things -- look at these things in isolation, but whether Tosh talks about that relationship building and that engagement, it's the foundation. It's the centre of that web that will lead to all of these other pieces. We can't just focus on one of these things on their own. Just focusing on trying to train people to work on this area in the communities is not going to happen without all the other engagement pieces and relationship-building pieces, and that will happen a lot more smoothly when we do the hard work of the relationship-building and engagement. And that's really the heart of making all the rest of it happen. It can't happen in isolation.

3303 COMMISSIONER NAIDOO: Thank you. I read in your submission that you said the CRTC should acknowledge the difference between "communication strategies" -- and I see you nodding -- I think you know where I'm going with this -- and genuine collaboration with First Nations.

3304 So I wanted to ask, how can the CRTC help to improve how service providers consult with Indigenous communities? For example, do you think that there needs to be education? Does there need to be a checklist? Best practices? Oversight. And I'll let you take it from there.

3305 MS. SOUTHWICK: It's a fantastic question and my answer is really short. Develop standards and expectations and then enforce them. This is not a new thing for the Government of Canada, or provincial governments, or even industry, you know, that spectrum of consultation has shifted quite a bit. So what we're talking about in the north and what we're used to is an expectation of full consultation. So it's not just about providing information. It's about collaboration and it's about having -- designing every part of it together.

3306 So I think the CRTC could establish standards for industry partners to say, at a minimum here's what we're expecting. This is what minimum consultation looks like. If you want to do bigger than that, great, and we're going to reward that and we're going to hold you up for doing it, but at a minimum it's going to be this.

3307 I think even without setting standards and expectations, there are going to be some players who do that better than others. But when you set the expectation, then you're forcing them to start from there and that's important. And I've seen different organizations from the Crown be able to do that, Tri-Council. SSHRC has done a fantastic job of setting the expectation for researchers on consultation and engagement.

3308 COMMISSIONER NAIDOO: So standards would give you sort of a base level because we had asked this earlier of Telus, and we were talking about how, you know, different companies can view how they're approaching stakeholder engagement, or rights engagement, in different ways and think that they're actually ticking all the boxes.

3309 Are you finding that some companies do it better than others?

3310 MS. SOUTHWICK: Yeah. I mean, that's literally our business, is to inspire reconciliation potential IRP. So we work with clients across that spectrum. So first I would say, we find companies who are being dragged and pulled and forced into reconciliation. So that's one of the first things we can tell fairly quickly after one meeting. You're here because somebody has told you have to be here, not because you actually see the connection.

3311 Secondly, we are finding companies who are doing it for the wrong reasons, who are motivated because they think it will help them so better on the bottom line or a certain initiative. And then probably where we spend the vast majority of our time is with companies who authentically want to do it, but don't know how. They understand the why, but they want to know and be shown what's that way forward. And that's sort of the favourite spot.

3312 I don't know any telecommunications company that are over there right now, and I say that in the spirit of honesty, but I also say that in the spirit of fear and impatience for that work. I think the companies that are doing it the best are the ones who are asking questions, and I would encourage the CRTC to build those standards in partnership with Indigenous communities, and then let's work with the industry partners and the companies to show how to do them.

3313 Like, I'm not saying let's leave them out there, so they have to sink or swim and figure it out on their own. But there are lots of other sectors we can point to where this work has been done for over a decade and being done well and we can build off of that, so it doesn't have to take 10 years.

3314 The last thing I'll say about companies that do it well. One of the first questions I'll ask new potential clients is, do you have a strategic direction or a priority? And if you do, are you funding it? Is there a budget behind it? Because if there's not, I can tell how authentic you are about trying to move that forward. You only resource what you care about

3315 COMMISSIONER NAIDOO: I want to move on to data. You mentioned that in your intervention as well. You said that data -- well, I think generally speaking, data is essential to understanding the needs of the community and what the baseline is as far as, you know, salaries and affordability and so on.

3316 Why do you feel that controlling data -- because you had actually mentioned that in your intervention -- that controlling data is important for Indigenous communities? And I guess what I'm trying to get at is, how do you -- if you're controlling it, how do you share it with different bodies so that it becomes useful?

3317 MS. SOUTHWICK: So again, I think this is about that paradigm shift from stakeholders to rightsholders. You know, stakeholders are put into a different box around data. Rightsholders, there's an understanding about that access and that control. And you know, I think data is part of the power shift that we're talking about, and part of the knowledge.

3318 And so, I do see a key line between successfully closing the digital divide and having First Nation ownership over data, and the ability to do that and do it well. I also think the piece about data that's important is, it's empowering. When you understand how to do something, when you get that piece of it, then you understand how to bring it to your community and how to do it in your way. Without that data it's one more barrier. It's that much harder to move that mountain, right? So I think data is -- I also think it's low hanging fruit. I don't think it's incredibly complicated to get it there and share it. We just haven't prioritized it and done it in that fashion.

3319 COMMISSIONER NAIDOO: All right. I'm going to move off of engagement a little bit. Before I do I want to ask you, is there anything surrounding engagement that I haven't asked you that you think is important to say?

3320 MS. SOUTHWICK: The only thing about engagement is authenticity and meaningfulness are incredibly important. And when you're meaningfully engaging with somebody, it's not only readily apparent, it produces an outcome that by miles is more important and better. So I would often say engagement -- and the same for consultation. It has to be done meaningfully.

3321 COMMISSIONER NAIDOO: Okay. You've heard, if you've been following the hearing the last few days, that we've been asking people about outages, frequency of outages, duration of outages.

3322 I'm just wondering if you have any insight into whether, when outages are happening, are you readily getting the information that residents need to find out why the outage is happening, how long will the duration be, you know, just answers like that? Can you shed some light on that?

3323 MS. SOUTHWICK: No. Outages happen all the time. It's really hard to get that information without internet so it's challenging. Generally, I think we find out by what I would call the moccasin, sort of, telegraph. So and so is at the store and you know, the internet is out, the bank cards are not working, all of those pieces. Or we're in a meeting and it got cut off.

3324 In fact, one of my favourite moments was when the federal Minister of Infrastructure was Zooming in to a meeting here about the digital divide and then got cut off because we had an outage; right? It couldn't have gotten much better than that. So no, we don't know how long they're going to be. We don't know if they're going to be days long or not and I don't think the information is readily available. It's even harder outside of Whitehorse. It's incredibly challenging in communities -- and where it's already hard, if you don't have a good infrastructure setup, it's immensely that much harder.

3325 COMMISSIONER NAIDOO: Do you think transparency will help? I mean, is that -- is it important to residents to find out, even if an outage had happened and it's behind us now, do you feel that follow-up needs to take place?

3326 MS. SOUTHWICK: Hundred (100) percent. And there needs to be accountability for it.

3327 COMMISSIONER NAIDOO: Okay. And what about refunds for outages? You've heard us ask that question several times. What's your take on -- should they be automatic? Should there be refunds?

3328 MS. SOUTHWICK: Yeah, you know, I think refunds are -- they're not disruption. You know, I don't feel they strongly about them either way. They will help improve accountability, I'm sure, but it's slow.

3329 My preference would be to disrupt the entire system rather than focus on refunds.

3330 COMMISSIONER NAIDOO: Okay. Let's move on to data and overage fees because -- you look like you've been waiting for us to get to that subject.

3331 You cite overage fees as an issue in the far north. You say Northwestel shouldn't be allowed to charge overage fees while maintaining low data plans.

3332 On page 25 of its intervention, Northwestel actually says that overage fees have been dropping for terrestrial internet consumers as usage rises and that issues with overage fees should be resolved by 2023, and I wanted to give you an opportunity to respond to that.

3333 MS. SOUTHWICK: Yeah. I think overage fees are hurting the most vulnerable citizens. I think it's really hard for a company like Northwestel to understand what an $1,800 overage fee means for somebody who can't already afford electricity, water, food and has a number of other barriers. Overage fees are horrible, in my mind, and I think anything we can do to stop that is important.

3334 And I think it's really telling that at the most critical time in this country's history, during a pandemic, when the only way Yukoners had to reach out was internet, nobody talked about stopping overage fees and questioned what that would do to the most vulnerable people there. You can't even go to school. What does that say?

3335 The other thing I'll say about overage fees it's again a privileged assumption that you can go check on Northwestel what your usage is, that you know how to do that, that you have a device so you can check if there's overage. That blows my mind that that's the system that's in place.

3336 And so I think if overages can be stopped and I would even venture to say refunded for those who are at most in need, I think that would be amazing.

3337 COMMISSIONER NAIDOO: What would those refunds look like?

3338 MS. SOUTHWICK: Yeah. I'm not sure. I would leave that to say, if it's a little bit uncomfortable for the companies, then push it a little further.

3339 COMMISSIONER NAIDOO: All right. Let's talk about subsidies. You knew we were going to get to this at some stage. We've been asking everyone.

3340 Do you think that the CRTC should create a subsidy? If so, do you think it should go to low-income households or generally the residents of the far north overall, or both?

3341 MS. SOUTHWICK: My opinion on subsidies is that if we disrupt the system and actually empower Indigenous communities to own their own internet service provider, subsidies don't become the same importance that they were. If we can think of connectivity as a human right, as a nation-building crucial exercise, then we don't need to talk about subsidies.

3342 I think, you know, subsidies are at that far end of reconciliation spectrum that I talked about. I would much prefer to put our energy towards solving the huge issues in the system rather than a program or initiative.

3343 I want to move mountains. And so my preference would be -- and I think subsidies are fluffy.

3344 COMMISSIONER NAIDOO: Okay. What about your thoughts on internet affordability standard?

3345 Obviously, affordability is subjective. It can differ from region to region. Some suggest that we should be establishing an internet affordability standard to improve the availability of data on telecom affordability in the far north. Can you tell us whether you think that that would be helpful?

3346 MS. SOUTHWICK: I do, particularly for rural and remote communities if it is built in partnership with Indigenous communities. If they help to set that standard, I think that's important.

3347 Again, that's moving away from a stakeholder to a rightsholder.

3348 I'm also going to just talk about small business. We've been working on establishing and running a small business. I would love to see some standards on the small business plans for the data because they're crazy. It's a huge obstacle. They're not cheap bills, right. I think ours are around 4,000 a month, 2,000? They're substantial. And we're not heavy users, right.

3349 So I think the standards on cost and also service. When those changes were made, that's the only time we've seen a change in our communities, right. And was it a big enough change? Probably not for me. But it was a change, and it was for the better. Anything we can do to advance that I think would be great.

3350 COMMISSIONER NAIDOO: All right. Thank you so much. That's all I have.

3351 I'm going to turn it back to my colleagues and I'm sure that they've got some questions as well. Thank you.

3352 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Hopefully you're willing to stick around with us for another 10, 15 minutes? Wonderful.

3353 MS. SOUTHWICK: It doesn't get dark till 10:00. We've got lots of time.

3354 THE CHAIRPERSON: Excellent. I will turn things over to Commissioner Anderson.

3355 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much for taking time out of your day to appear at the hearing and to talk about principles where it sounds like you've been talking about these principles for a long time.

3356 And so I can sense a bit of it sounds like frustration that you're having the same discussion again. But like you said, the telecom aspect is falling behind and it's fallen behind even child welfare, so I hear you.

3357 I had just a couple questions. One of them was several intervenors, Yukon Government and Champagne Aishihik First Nation, in their submissions had spoke about potentially requiring telecom service providers to have Indigenous representation at senior leadership levels for existing service providers.

3358 And now I'm going to say we generally at the Commission don't regulate employment equity matters. That generally falls -- generally falls outside our jurisdiction. And I'm not sure if you're familiar with the Employment Equity Act but it's about the protection or ensuring that there's equitable professional opportunities for protected groups.

3359 Do you think that we should refrain from imposing any kind of requirements or expectations on telecom service providers to have Indigenous representation in leadership levels because that's outside our jurisdiction? Like what role do we have to play, if any?

3360 MS. SOUTHWICK: That's an interesting perspective. I would say that I have seen significant change in organizations that have Indigenous representation at senior leadership, but I caveat that with, they are organizations who intend to do that and do that from a place of desire rather than being forced and I think there's a distinction to be made there.

3361 I also can't imagine being the Indigenous person that would take a position, a telecom place that's been forced to hire First Nation people. I think that would be tough to do.

3362 So I guess I would respond in terms of impact. I don't think that would have the same impact as some of the other opportunities before the CRTC to make disruption in that system.

3363 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: And for you that goes back to ownership opportunities.

3364 MS. SOUTHWICK: And data sovereignty, connected sovereignty, yeah.

3365 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Thank you. And then my second question because I think my colleagues and I can really benefit from hearing your views on this. But in your view, is self-determination a legal right, and what does it mean to you?

3366 MS. SOUTHWICK: That might be my favourite question.

3367 To me, self-determination -- Indigenous people have always been self-determining. We've always had our own laws, our own world views, our own forms of everything, including education and justice. And when the Indian Act came in, it dismantled it. It took away our ability to be self-determining people, our ability to decide the future of our nations, of our children, of the way we were going to do things.

3368 And so, to me, self-determination is -- the key is the answer to all of the most complex challenges that were faced in this country. If we can empower Indigenous communities to be self-determining, we know that results in a better product for all of Canada. And I've seen that time and time again in my own community, in the communities that we're honoured enough to work with, when we empower Indigenous communities to come up with the solutions to the things that they think are most important to solve, it will go better. And I think there's no difference between that and this piece here.

3369 I think -- what does it mean to be self-determining? It means that we're challenging this idea that somebody somewhere knows better about me and my community than the people that live there, and that's been the north's experience for as long as I've been alive. There's always been somebody somewhere who is going to come up and fix us rather than empower us to do that on our own. And self-determination is so key when we're talking about big, huge complex issues like the one that's before us here today.

3370 Lastly, I'll talk about self-determination in terms of reconciliation. There will be no reconciliation and I don't think we can progress to where we need to be if we're not anchoring it in honouring self-determination of Indigenous communities and people.

3371 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: I was wondering if you're able to share your views on whether it's a legal right -- I appreciate that, but I'd like to know if self-determination is a legal right as well as whether or not you think that reconciliation is a legal obligation.

3372 MS. SOUTHWICK: Yeah. So I would say, yes, it's a legal right. I say that from the context of coming from a self-governing First Nation where the spirit and intent of those agreements is to allow First Nations to regain their self-determination and they are constitutionally protected agreements, so yes, I would say it's a legal right.

3373 I would also say that when we move into the world of UNDRIP, we're talking about Indigenous self-determination, and I know we have governments who are working to embed UNDRIP into their pieces. So yes, I would say it is a legal right.

3374 Sorry, the second part?

3375 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Do you think reconciliation is a legal obligation?

3376 MS. SOUTHWICK: I don't think it's been stated as a legal obligation so much across Canada yet -- and I say yet because we know that First Nations and Inuit and Métis, unfortunately, continually have to go to the Courts to make that decision. But I think we're close to that and I would say reconciliation is like social licence. It's gaining more and more traction.

3377 And so I think when it comes to human rights and the implementation of human rights, and reconciliation is a piece of that, there's a deep connection, but I don't think it's legally protected right now.

3378 I'm not a lawyer, though. I'm even worse at that stuff than I am about technology.

3379 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: We appreciate your views.

3380 MS. SOUTHWICK: I appreciate your fantastic questions.

3381 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Thank you. Gunalchéesh.

3382 MS. SOUTHWICK: Gunalchéesh.

3383 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

3384 We'll go over to Vice Chair Scott.

3385 VICE CHAIR SCOTT: Thanks very much for sharing your time and your energy and enthusiasm and knowledge with us. You keep saying you're not a technical expert and then you keep proving yourself wrong with some very insightful answers.

3386 You've used the word "disruption" a lot, which I think is a very dynamic and exciting word. I just wanted to make sure that we had a sense of the types of things that you consider disruptive.

3387 You've flagged a couple that you think, while they might be positive, wouldn't meet your threshold for a disruptive change, so maybe I'll just -- I'll run through a few of the ideas we've heard throughout the week and then maybe we could get your quick thoughts on how disruptive they might be.

3388 So regulatory disruption. There's been a lot of talk about making broadband services available at wholesale prices so that others can then enter the market and begin offering services. Would that be something you would consider disruptive?

3389 MS. SOUTHWICK: Yes, I think that's disruptive. If it makes people uncomfortable and angry, it's disruptive.

3390 VICE CHAIRPERSON SCOTT: I think we might have to name that test after you.

3391 What about technical disruption? We have heard a lot of mixed opinions about low earth orbit satellites in particular. I know you've been doing some studying and consulting some experts. Do you see potential for next generation technology to be disruptive in a constructive way?

3392 MS. SOUTHWICK: Yeah, absolutely. I think we are unaware even what technology is going to come five, 10, 15 years down the road, and technology by its nature for lots of our workforce and nation-building activities is disruptive, but often in good ways. So, yes, I think things like low orbit earth satellites can be disruptive in the systems if given the opportunity and not restricted.

3393 VICE CHAIRPERSON SCOTT: Thank you. And maybe it's a bit tied to regulatory disruption -- I don't have a great name for it. But maybe service disruption. Does who owns the infrastructure, who provides the service, who makes the decisions, particularly in a scenario where it would be more Indigenous decision-making, would that fall into your disruption category or is that something different?

3394 MS. SOUTHWICK: That would be my favourite kind of disruption. I also think that that is disruption connected with Indigenous sovereignty. Absolutely, that's disruptive. And I think it's the kind of disruption, if I had to choose one thing at that we could be disruptive, that would be my favourite because I think it would have big ripples. Yes, that's disruption.

3395 VICE CHAIRPERSON SCOTT: Thank you. And than I think you've -- you've shared lots of views on process improvement. If you had disruptive level ideas for how we can improve processes, I did want to give you one last opportunity to speak to those too, because I found it very informative.

3396 MS. SOUTHWICK: Disruption on processes. Sorry, are you speaking broadly across?

3397 VICE CHAIRPERSON SCOTT: CRTC processes in particular.

3398 MS. SOUTHWICK: Yeah, okay. I would say if there is a way to simplify how you accept testimonial or input, I think there's a certain skill level that's needed to be able to create and draft these pieces. I think it's a very Western process. Indigenous communities are anchored in storytelling, Indigenous communities are anchored in relationships. And so if there's ways to do that -- and I'll give you an example, often one of the things we'll do to engage youth in communities that we work with is run competitions for TikTok videos. Not advocating for TikTok, but just saying that the way to do that is different.

3399 I'm particularly concerned that this format prevents our knowledge holders and Elders from contributing, it is a barrier for them. And they -- in our nations we hold them as the most important, because they hold that wisdom, that knowledge. Our grandmas aren't going sit down and write these pieces and figure out how to navigate the websites to submit them, let alone the timelines and all those pieces. So that type of process. And then I think also this idea about what happens with it all once we've don't all these pieces; right? You can read the transcripts that are online, but for those that aren't on Twitter and other spaces, how do they know where these things are going to land? And when we talk about engagement being anchored in a relationship, there's always a loopback. And they don't see that with CRTC right now for Indigenous communities. What's that loopback and how do we inform that piece?

3400 Lastly about process, I will just say, there is no silver bullet. But if we put on a decolonization lens and ask ourselves about what privilege is at play when we set up a system, we'll create something that's more accessible on the other side, and I think there's room for the CRTC to do that across the board.

3401 VICE CHAIRPERSON SCOTT: Thank you very much for your generosity today.

3402 MS. SOUTHWICK: Also, great questions.

3403 THE CHAIRPERSON: So maybe I can ask a final question and then we'll put it back to you and you can share anything you'd like to add.

3404 You've given us a lot of concrete examples of challenges that are occurring in communities. You talked about your mum's internet going out and, you know, three months later maybe it comes back on. Eight hundred (800) and I think I heard 1,800 in overages. You talked about $2,800 to get a line connected. Obviously, lots of challenges.

3405 We will be hearing from Northwestel tomorrow. They will be appearing before us. You know, I think we've taken note of a lot of the concerns that you've expressed. Is there anything specific in terms of lines of questioning or anything else you think we should be exploring tomorrow?

3406 MS. SOUTHWICK: Whew. Yeah. I would ask how much resourcing and positions they put behind reconciliation. I would ask for their priorities in reconciliation and where the average Yukoner could find those. I would ask how they intend to support the implementation of the Yukon First Nation final agreements. It's been 30 years. So is there something new there? And then I would ask how they're empowering Indigenous communities to have a decision-making voice in telecommunications in the north.

3407 I will say it's also -- you know, back to Co-chair Scott's earlier question about disruption in the process. I would also say I was surprised to see Northwestel going last. In First Nation way, we would have a way to continue the conversation rather than it being ended there. So that might be something to disrupt in the future.

3408 I think lastly, I would point to where has Northwestel been able to move mountains in solving, or contributing to solving the digital divide, rather than making it worse?

3409 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much for that. We will just turn it back to you, and if there's anything further you'd like to share with us, we would welcome it.

3410 MS. IVANY: I think one of the things that was mentioned in our presentation is to highlight the importance and the important role that telecommunications plays in all of these different areas of reconciliation. And we've seen strides happen in many of those areas. Now that we're done, we've got a long way to go, there's no doubt. But we've seen that move towards people taking real action in moving reconciliation forward. And we haven't really acknowledged the vital role that telecommunications plays in that.

3411 You cannot move mountains in all of those different areas without this in place. It makes it so much harder to really strive for reconciliation in areas like health care as an example, if you don't have the backing of telecommunications to be able to make that happen. How do you make access to health care easier in communities where you can't have telehealth, you can't have, you know, remote appointments with doctors and things like that?

3412 It's not just important and it's not just an obligation based in reconciliation, whether that be legal or not. It's vital. Without it, it's a huge barrier in reconciliation in all of these other areas. It's foundational in moving us forward. Without it, it just increases the barriers immensely in all of these other areas that are so vitally important.

3413 MS. SOUTHWICK: I'll say two last things.

3414 The first is, I hope you guys all got to fly Air North. They are our beloved airline. When we're talking about good relationships in the Yukon, they're my favourite example. We need more Air North. It's Yukon's airline for a reason. We adore them. They hand out cookies. Like, if I'm in down in Vancouver airport and someone is smack-talking Air North, I'm getting mad, right, because that's our airline. That's what we need from out telecom companies. We need them to be anchored in this place, in the north, for the north, by the north. We need that piece.

3415 The last thing I'll say is, one of the things I was raised up with is one of the best things that anybody can say about a person is that they made this world a better place when they've moved on. And I think, just like those that worked -- the generation before mine to create land claims and self-government, this is the challenge of the generation that I belong to. How can we remove this barrier so that our next generation can thrive, not just survive but thrive?

3416 This is one of the single biggest challenges in the north, and this piece is a linchpin for so many, like Cass said, of those other parts. So if we can move this mountain, we have got a way better shot on a bunch of other ones. And I appreciate your time and for you guys all coming up, and I hope you have a great Air North trip back home. Gunalchéesh.

3417 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. I would say not just say cookies, warm cookies; right?

3418 MS. SOUTHWICK: Right?

3419 THE CHAIRPERSON: Warm cookies. Okay.

3420 Let me just say thank you again for being here. We've heard you, you know, as we're looking and hearing from parties to the proceeding, the ways in which we as the telecom regulator can improve affordability, and reliability, and competition, and advance reconciliation. We want meaningful outcomes. We want measurable, targeted outcomes, and so your points around moving mountains and real disruption, versus something else that doesn't quite meet that level is very helpful to us, so we really appreciate that, and we hear the sense of urgency. So thank you again

3421 MS. SOUTHWICK: Gunalchéesh.

3422 MS. MOORE: Thank you very much for coming today and for your presentation. So thank you. This concludes today's hearing.

3423 I would like to remind everyone that the deadline for undertakings is May 9^th, and for final submissions is June 6^th.

3424 The hearing will resume tomorrow morning at 9 a.m. Thank you and have a great evening, everyone.

--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3:34 p.m.

Kristin Johansson

Monique Mahoney

Bill Curley

Lynda Johansson

Tania Mahoney

Brian Denton