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Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le participant à l'audience.
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS BEFORE
THE CANADIAN RADIO‑TELEVISION AND
TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION
TRANSCRIPTION
DES AUDIENCES DEVANT
LE
CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION
ET
DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES
SUBJECT
/ SUJET:
Various broadcasting applications /
Diverses demandes de radiodiffusion
HELD AT: TENUE À:
Sussex Ballroom Salle Sussex
Future Inns Cambridge Future Inns Cambridge
700 Hespeler Road 700, chemin Hespeler
Cambridge, Ontario Cambridge (Ontario)
October 22, 2008 Le 22 octobre 2008
Transcripts
In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages
Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be
bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members
and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of
Contents.
However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded
verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in
either of the official languages, depending on the language
spoken by the participant at the public hearing.
Transcription
Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur
les langues
officielles, les procès‑verbaux pour le
Conseil seront
bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page
couverture, la liste des
membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à
l'audience
publique ainsi que la table des matières.
Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un
compte rendu
textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel,
est enregistrée
et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux
langues
officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée
par le
participant à l'audience publique.
Canadian
Radio‑television and
Telecommunications
Commission
Conseil
de la radiodiffusion et des
télécommunications canadiennes
Transcript / Transcription
Various broadcasting applications /
Diverses demandes de radiodiffusion
BEFORE / DEVANT:
Michel Arpin Chairperson
/ Président
Rita Cugini Commissioner
/ Conseillère
Elizabeth Duncan Commissioner / Conseillère
Peter Menzies Commissioner
/ Conseiller
Stephen Simpson Commissioner
/ Conseiller
ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:
Cindy Ventura Secretary
/ Sécretaire
Joe Aguiar Hearing Manager /
Gérant de l'audience
Anthony McIntyre Legal Counsel
Conseiller
Juridique
HELD AT: TENUE À:
Sussex Ballroom Salle Sussex
Future Inns Cambridge Future Inns Cambridge
700 Hespeler Road 700, chemin Hespeler
Cambridge, Ontario Cambridge (Ontario)
October
22, 2008 Le 22 octobre
2008
- iv -
TABLE
DES MATIÈRES / TABLE OF CONTENTS
PAGE / PARA
PHASE III (Cont'd)
INTERVENTION BY / INTERVENTION PAR:
London Silverbacks Football Team 618 / 3666
North by Northeast 624 / 3687
London Majors Baseball Corporation 632 / 3722
Great Lakes Blues Society 648 / 3811
Ontario Federation of Snowmobile Clubs 659 / 3820
Downchild Blues Band 669 / 3869
PHASE IV
REPLY BY / RÉPLIQUE PAR:
My Broadcasting Corporation 680 / 3931
Frank Torres (OBCI) 681 / 3939
United Christian Broadcasters Canada 684 / 3961
Blackburn Radio Inc. 689 / 3992
Evanov Communications Inc. (OBCI) 696 / 4034
Rogers Broadcasting Limited 697 / 4045
CTV Limited 699 / 4059
Forest City Radio Inc. 702 / 4080
Sound of Faith Broadcasting 708 / 4118
- v -
TABLE
DES MATIÈRES / TABLE OF CONTENTS
PAGE / PARA
PHASE I
PRESENTATION BY / PRESENTATION PAR:
Frank Torres
(OBCI) 719 / 4186
Blackburn Radio Inc. 768 / 4506
591989 B.C. Ltd. 814 / 4762
Guelph Broadcasting Corporation 859 / 5032
PHASE II
INTERVENTION BY / INTERVENTION PAR:
Guelph Broadcasting Corporation 909 / 5358
Cambridge,
Ontario / Cambridge (Ontario)
‑‑‑ Upon
resuming on Wednesday, October 22, 2008
at 0902 / L'audience reprend le mercredi,
22 octobre 2008 à 0902
3659 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Order, please. À l'ordre, s'il vous plaît.
3660 Madam
Secretary...?
3661 ASSISTANT
SECRETARY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
3662 Good morning,
everyone. As a reminder, please turn off
your cell phones and beepers and blackberries as it is causing interference
with our internal system, please.
3663 We now have the
London Silverbacks Football Team, North by Northeast and London Majors Baseball
Corporation to appear as a panel and present their intervention.
3664 We will start with
the London Silverbacks Football Team.
3665 Please present
yourself for the record and you will have 10 minutes to make your presentation.
INTERVENTION
3666 MR. LAZAR: My name is Alan Lazar and I'm here on behalf
of the London Silverbacks Football Team.
We are a men's professional minor league football team located in
London, Ontario. This year we just
completed our fifth season of operation.
3667 We take part in
the North American Football League, which is the world's largest football
league with approximately 130 teams across North America.
3668 We are proud to
boast the distinction of being the minor league affiliate to the Toronto Argos. We had great success. We just finished an undefeated season and,
unfortunately, lost in our third round of the playoffs, as well as winning a
championship title in our league last season.
3669 Our team is
comprised of adult men aged 18‑plus.
I believe it gives men opportunities to continue competing in football
in a way that's pretty much unavailable to them, as well as competing on an
international scale.
3670 I believe it adds
a lot to the community in that we are involved in a lot of charitable organizations,
into a lot of high schools, a lot of children's groups, et cetera.
3671 We believe that
after the introduction to pod fm we have been really pleased to see something
like this possibly being introduced to the London market, as the hurdle we have
faced over the years here in London has been a limited opportunity to be able
to contact especially individuals, the younger age groups, especially the high
schools and that that we are trying to get into, et cetera. We pride ourselves on being a family event,
good quality football.
3672 We have probably
boasted a great number of professional athletes coming into our organization as
well as going out of it, and we believe we offer great opportunities for
individuals of all ages, but especially the toughest hurdle has been finding
any kind of venue to contact, especially there like around 18 to 25 there.
3673 We have two
college radio stations in our town, but one of the hurdles in dealing with that
has been the fact that the personnel and the personality of the station
sometimes changes from semester to semester so there is no consistent venue to
market our team.
3674 As well, a lot of
the media is so varied within our city in that some of them will
focus purely on ‑‑ whether it be major league sports purely
that they don't look at any of the local content which makes it really
tough for an organization such as ourselves to get the word out there and build
our fan base, which has been an interesting thing for us in that last year we
were fortunate enough to win a league title and that.
3675 Again, this being
the world's largest football league and we play American rules football. We are just one of three Canadian teams in
this league. What we accomplished was,
many would think, pretty significant, yet virtually no media interest, response
whatsoever with it, despite our usual continued efforts to always send out
media releases to the local media. It
was completely left forgotten.
3676 Coming off of a
season like that, here we entered this year, we had a great season as well that
we continued the undefeated season here, and yet due to the fact that there is
a lack of a good venue for us to be able to get out to our fans, to get out the
interest there, we have seen our numbers dwindle, which really from a business
point of view has definitely made it challenging to continue improving and
providing the opportunities that we are working on.
3677 We believe there
that with pod fm it gives us a great avenue to (a) continue to improve our
fan base, which has really ‑‑ we have been very fortunate in
that the product we provide has been good, that it retains most of the
people who come out. It's been a great
percentage of people that when they come out to our game they usually enjoy it
and will come back, but it's building upon that and trying to continue to get
the word out there has been the biggest hurdle.
3678 So that has been
one of the reasons why pod fm has been so appealing to us, as well as
the interactive nature of the station we think is a great appeal.
3679 We have seen a lot
of demand from the people who have been involved with our team to want to know
what's going on with the team, especially when we are on the road. We are travelling to various places in the
States. Our championship game last year
was in Las Vegas, this year it's in Atlanta.
So to try to meet that demand in interest we had to go out and ourselves
set up a webcast to allow our fans to be able to stay involved, knowing that
unfortunately while we didn't expect to get play‑by‑play from local
media or anything like that, but just to keep at least some sort of regular
score update, some sort of standing, some sort of something for the people who
are interested in our team, because there has been a lack of opportunity to
provide that information to our fans. We
have had to take it on ourselves and try and develop the proper website as well
as the webcasts, et cetera.
3680 That's where we
really believe that when we first were introduced to pod fm that it's a really
exciting opportunity, that here our fans will now have a way to be involved, to
interact, to possibly hear what's going on with the Silverbacks and even report
to other possible fans what's taking place at a Silverbacks game.
3681 I believe the
format will help us get out there to potential fans, as well is to make our
fans who are already involved and have been diehard being there with us for the
last five years there, make them feel validated that there is something going
on and that Silverbacks are supported as being London's premier minor league
football team.
3682 And that's what we
are looking at going forward, is we think it's a really exciting opportunity
and we are glad to be here to support that.
3683 Thank you very
much.
3684 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
3685 ASSISTANT SECRETARY: Thank you.
3686 North by
Northeast, please introduce yourself and you will have 10 minutes to
make your presentation.
INTERVENTION
3687 MR. McLEAN: Great.
Thank you.
3688 My name is Andy
McLean. I am the Managing Director of
the North by Northeast Music Festival.
It's also a film festival and a conference based in Toronto.
3689 For those of you
who are not familiar with the event, it's our 15th year coming up and we
take place this year June 17 to 21 all over the city of Toronto.
3690 It's my pleasure
to be here this morning to support the Rogers pod fm application and
particularly the pod Road Tour which is the CCD component that we are here and
looking at. I think it's a very exciting
development and initiative.
3691 It's very
ambitious, but I think it's one of the most important initiatives to help
emerging Canadian bands, especially in the current climate, the way the music
industry has developed over the past 10, 15 years especially. I really feel it's time to concentrate on an
initiative that is based back on the old‑fashioned idea of getting a band
on the road. So that's where we are
going to go with this proposal.
3692 I just wanted to
perhaps give a little bit of a background first. Many of you I'm sure you know the music
industry has changed hugely. North by
Northeast was started 15 years ago, I am one of the founding owners.
3693 Because Indy, the
word "Indy" has nothing to do with a Molson car race, it's all about
being an independent band, being an entrepreneurial band, being a band
traditionally, a traditional model for a band or an artist. When I say "band" I mean performing
artist, it could be a singer/songwriter as well, but I will just use the word
"band".
3694 They traditionally
would wait around and try and write songs and develop their craft and trying
get a buzz going and wait for a record company to come and sign them and pluck
them out of obscurity and send them into stardom. This is a system that existed for a long
time, unfortunately it doesn't exist really anymore. For all kinds of reasons that traditional
model no longer is relevant.
3695 In fact it's a
good thing. I think there were many bad
aspects of that situation, particularly in the '80s and '90s. As music became more and more corporatized
you really were limited as your choices as a musician into how you could
connect with your audience. I mean let's
remember what this is all about, it's about an artist with an idea, a
musical idea and a concept who wants to connect with an audience.
3696 So what would happen
is you really ‑‑ there were two things, you needed to record
your music because you can go play for your family and you can try and do a
little tour if you can, but most of the time it's restrictive in terms of
getting out there.
3697 So you need to
record your music, then you need to find a way to distribute it and a record
company would fulfil both those roles.
This is the traditional record deal.
The record company was the bank, they would advance to the money, you go
out and record your album, they would own most of it and then you would
hopefully try and sell some records and make some money that way.
3698 The second thing
of course was getting the record distributed.
The record companies controlled all the distribution. That was a way for you to reach your audience
and, if all things lined up, your record is released, the radio of course
extremely important in terms of promoting it, your fan base would be built,
mostly probably through radio first but also a groundswell, and then you get a chance
to go out and play for them.
3699 This would be done
with the support of a label called Tour Supports and they would support you in
your efforts to go out and play. Most of
the time at a loss because you would still be building your career, but they
would try and get you started. And
that's kind of what would happen.
3700 And then all of a
sudden I guess the Internet came along and changed all of that. So the two main reasons ‑‑
and digitization of music as well. Bands
no longer need help really in recording as much. Everybody can make a recording. Everybody can get their music up online now
and try and build a fan base through social networking and all of that.
3701 Unfortunately,
what's missing of course is still an ability to get out there and play in front
of a live audience. So this is what the
pod Road Tour is really all about. It's
about authenticity, it's about gaining faith and respect from an audience,
earning that respect actually.
3702 The bad side of
the other system where you are kind of top‑down and promoted first before
you really had earned the right to go out and demand loyalty from an audience,
whereas now the Indy route, if we can go back to that, the Indy route is bands
preferring to go that route in many ways.
It's a lot harder. It means that
they have to struggle in obscurity for quite a long time. Certainly they would be able to record their
music, get it up on their own website and try and build a fan base.
3703 But some of the
good things about a record label obviously was the mass marketing that they
could throw and the amount of budget that they could spend to promote an act.
3704 So an independent
act now is still faced with a major issue of how do I get my music out to
people? How do I connect with them? Music in the end it's about going into a live
venue and just having that musical experience.
It's an emotional ‑‑ it's an emotional investment on
both sides.
3705 So this idea is to
take emerging bands ‑‑ take three emerging bands from the
London area and give them the opportunity to go out and play a really good
tour.
3706 North by Northeast
has the expertise and the background in terms of pulling this together. We have 3,000 submissions from all over the
world, about two‑thirds are Canadian.
Every year our team of listeners go through the process of judging all
these bands. We come up with about 500
that showcase.
3707 Regionally we can
break out all of the bands that are coming here. So we can look at all the bands that would
come from the 519 London area and we can, through that process of constant
listening and weeding out as the strongest bands, we can get to after the end
of the festival we can pick three that we think are a pretty good bet, so these
bands are going to be going somewhere.
3708 And what this
program will do is offer them a top class agent, a top class promoter, a
publicist, all of the things that they can't afford, all of the things that
they would never be able to do themselves and we can send them out on a 12 day,
two or three week tour to some key venues.
3709 And this will be
the missing piece. This is the missing
piece between the fan base that they built up online between the records and
MP3s that they have sent out themselves.
It's an opportunity for them to really build with their audience and
develop that kind of loyalty and authenticity that I think was missing in the
past.
3710 So North by
Northeast as an organization can provide the credible structure for
all this to happen. You know, we
can get them Nickelback's agent to actually book this tour, we have those kind
of connections.
3711 It's a kind of
dream opportunity for a band. It's
something that is a tremendous payback with the station. One of the most exciting things also is that
while the band is on tour and performing in the old‑fashioned live way,
there's a whole new side of the interaction through the website of the radio
station.
3712 The savvy kind of
15 to 35s, particularly younger end of that demo, are all looking online. So they can discover these bounds so they can
discover these bands. They can discover
this radio station online and then they can also enjoy what is being put on
stage through a live experience.
3713 So the two really
go together. I think that's a really
innovative approach to what we are doing.
3714 There is
interaction between the bands, they are going to be creating content
themselves while they are on the road.
These three acts are going to be blogging, they are going to be making
videos, they are going to be sending stuff to the website, and it's a way to
have this more personal interaction with the audience within the catchment area
of the pod fm reach.
3715 So to me it's got
all of the aspects of the old school, going out and just playing, of the era
when you had a record company. We are
kind of not being a record company, we are supplying some of the great
promotional aspects that they had. And
of course it's all up to date with the Internet, social networking, all of
those sides that are working.
3716 So that in the end
these three bands are going to come out with more fans, there is no doubt. I have no doubt about it. They are going to make more connections, they
are going to be able to sell the CDs, sell their downloads, either online or
straight off the stage after the gig, and we will put together a tour that will
be top class and these bands I think will come out of it a lot further ahead
with their career than they would have previously. So that's why I am here.
3717 Oh, I have two
minutes left, but I think I have kind of hit most of the main points and I
think I will just stop there and thank you very much for allowing me to make
the presentation.
3718 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. McLean.
3719 ASSISTANT
SECRETARY: Thank you.
3720 London Majors
Baseball Corporation.
3721 Please introduce
yourself for the record. You have 10
minutes.
INTERVENTION
3722 MR. DART: Hi, my name is Scott Dart. I am the owner of the London Majors baseball
team. I have owned the team now for five
years and, as any sporting business would tell you, the younger that you can
get the fans in the better it is for down the road.
3723 For us it's been a
little bit of a struggle getting the younger fans out and we have really had to
shy away from more media advertising and we have had to go more door to door
and to the schools to actually get the participation of the younger kids.
3724 For us, the
younger kids represent a huge opportunity for us. For them to come to the games, we think that
we are actually a really good family destination, but we are also a destination
for younger kids where there is not a lot to do for the younger
generation. We feel that high calibre
baseball that we offer is definitely an entertainment value for that age group.
3725 So one of the
things that we have been having a tough time doing is how do we set our goals
of strategy with regards to the media.
3726 To this point we
haven't had a radio station in London that can hit that younger age group for
us. Right now the way that we see it is,
we have to get the younger age group in and not only the 15‑year‑olds
to the 20‑year‑olds, but also the older group as well that is, say
the 30 to 35 range. The reason why that
age group is so important to us, that's the age where there's a lot of young
families.
3727 So that's our
secondary target because we figure that if we are offering a good destination
for family entertainment, good, clean family entertainment, then we want the
families that have the younger kids to bring them because then that will be our
future fans as well going forward.
3728 To this point we
just haven't had top of mind awareness for our team. Over the past five years we have
really ‑‑ we went from probably under 100 fans again to now we
are actually just over 400 and the majority of that segment that we actually
have been successful with is the older clientele, the 50 to 65 range.
3729 What we want to do
is, we want to make sure that we are going after the demographic that suits our
team, and that would be to make it so that the younger kids can start to have
our players as role models, mentors, that sort of thing. At this stage we can't do that using radio at
all because they are just not set up right now to handle that age group.
3730 And we have tried
in the past actually where we have done some marketing with some of the radio
stations. We have been on some morning
programs and stuff like that and it's fantastic for our older groups, but we
are not getting any of the kids. Like when
we ask them, you know, how did you hear about our London Majors baseball, it's
almost 100 per cent of the time it is from oh, when you guys came out
to our school, when you had players come out to our assemblies, that sort of
thing.
3731 So nothing has
been a success on the radio front, and even on ‑‑ you know,
I'm sidetracked here, but even on the paper front as well we haven't had this
success for the younger fans that we are looking for.
3732 So for us to be
able to build a top of mind awareness for our team, we really need to have that
media outlet that we can actually touch that age group and we feel that, you
know, in reviewing everything that Rogers is doing for pod fm it actually would
be beneficial for us and would be an avenue that we could start to look at
strategically is going after, because currently we just don't have that and we
are very limited.
3733 The only radio
that we do currently where we get steady presence and is coverage is actually a
station that's outside of London. The
reason why that happens is because our PA announcer actually works at the radio
station. So I think that if we didn't
even have him there, I don't even know if we would get the kind of carry time
that we would need to even have just our scores and our updates and what's kind
of going on with the team to be that kind of channel for our fans to hear about
us.
3734 And that's at the
older demographic and it's not even reaching the younger generation, which is
what we need.
3735 The second thing
that I wanted to mention was, our team itself is actually ‑‑
I'm not sure if anybody here knows what the InterCounty Baseball League is, but
our league itself is comprised of young players. So our youngest player this year was
18 years old and our oldest player was 27.
So it falls right into this category.
3736 And for us, you
know, we get the feedback of what's going on with radio and media and stuff
like that directly from our players and they even tell us that for them to get
what they want, our pregame and that sort of thing, there is no radio stations
being played. And it's directly impacted
because it's not the music that they want to hear. There is no music that they want to listen to
being played on a current radio station that we can get.
3737 So every single
pregame, after game, every single bit of it is downloaded music so that they
can actually get the content that they want.
3738 I think that with
the application today for Rogers, I think that would probably change how our
players view it as well, and that's who we deal with on a regular basis, and
how we interconnect with, you know, what's important to them. Currently, right now, you know, what we said
what type of sound system do you need, there was nothing to do with well, we
need this to be able to pick up "X" number of radio stations or
anything like that, it was all, you know, we need somewhere to dock our iPod
and that was pretty much it.
3739 The other thing as
well, like for our updates and that, even though we are getting the word out to
our older demographics and they are ‑‑ we do hear it that they
do hear us on their radio stations that their preferences are, we are not
hearing it from any of our younger fans.
3740 And when we hear
about ‑‑ sorry, when we ask them about, you know, do you know
where we are in the standings? Do you
know how our players are doing? None of
them know. They have no idea what
position we are in, like whether we are in first place or last place. And that's important to us. We really need that kind of recognition so
that we can build that connection between our players and between that age
group to have our fan base started.
3741 The younger
generation is going to be our future fans and we have to keep mining at the
younger demographic to be able to build that, because right now it's affecting
our revenues and our revenue streams going forward if we are not able to bring
in the younger generation to recognize what our program is about, how good of a
level this is of baseball, where it fits within the entertainment industry for
sports entertainment within the city of London.
3742 That's what we
really need to see more of, is a station that can actually do that for us. And not only us, there are a lot of other
teams in the city that they are being missed out on. You know, they hear about it and stuff like
that, they hear about the different teams that are in the city of London, but
they are not actually hearing the details of those teams and being able to
recognize and do player profiles, that sort of thing, which strategically would
fit well with our advertising campaigns going forward.
3743 Because any time
that you can build ‑‑ as you guys know, any time you can build
the connection between fan and player it's going to make them want to come
back and want to come out and be a part of that experience. And with our location in London and with
the amount of success that we have had with the team, now is our
opportunity. Like we have been building
to this for five years and this year we unfortunately lost out in the finals in
a game seven, but we had 5,000 people at our game, which is capacity crowd.
3744 So we need to be
able to latch onto the younger demographics and pull them along to make sure
that they become fans going forward, because if not we are missing a whole
segment of our fan base that we can't get in touch with, that we can't connect
with. And that's the big thing for us.
3745 I hear about it as
well from other people that are associates of mine who have small businesses,
the same thing. Like I have a friend who
actually owns ‑‑ he installs blinds and shutters and he can't
reach that younger demographic either, which is what he's looking for is the
new homeowners.
3746 And we talked
about ‑‑ you know, we talked back and forth about how do we
attract people to our respective businesses.
And he's in the same mind frame where he can't get that younger
group. You know, they are just getting
out, they are just starting off, they are just buying their first new home and
they are looking to ‑‑ you know, he wants them to buy blinds
and shutters for their house, but he can't reach them.
3747 And that's one of
the things that we feel strong ‑‑ why I felt strongly enough
to want to come here today to support this, because it's not just one specific
group within the city or one specific business or one industry, this covers all
of us. Like we all need to ‑‑
we all need to look at the younger generation and the younger demographics for
our businesses to be successful.
3748 For me personally
this is a huge opportunity, is to get the younger demographics into the park to
see the type of level of baseball that we can offer.
3749 You know, families
with young kids, it's an inexpensive night out and it's a way to kind of bring
back families back together again and to do stuff together. We feel that with this we can start to target
our marketing and our media towards them so that we can start to get that fan
base out to, one, help on the family values side, but, you know, like any
business we are also looking to match our revenues with that.
3750 So I want to thank
you very much for allowing me to come and speak before you today, but I also
want to let you know that I wholeheartedly support this and really feel that
this would be a huge benefit for not only us but for a lot of other businesses
as well that are targeting the younger demographic.
3751 Thank you.
3752 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Dart.
3753 I'm asking
Commissioner Cugini to ask questions to this review.
3754 Thank you.
3755 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Thank you very much and good
morning to all three of you and for making the trip here to Cambridge to appear
before us this morning.
3756 I just have a
couple of questions and they are going to be both applicable to you,
Mr. Dart and to Mr. Lazar because I am interested in knowing for example
in your typical season how many fans do come out to see your games?
3757 MR. LAZAR: I think this year we were ‑‑
I know that we were definitely down from previous years. I think this year we were right around 300 to
400, tops, including ‑‑ our last playoff game, I think,
possibly topped out at 400. It has been
dropping significantly over the years with lack of exposure.
3758 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: And you, Mr. Dart?
3759 MR. DART: For our regular season, not counting the
playoffs, our average fan attendance was just over 500, and then, in the
playoffs, it kept ramping up until our final game, where we had over 5,000
people.
3760 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: And not even the community
channel in London, or the CTV local television station in London covers your
games at all, not even the results?
3761 MR. DART: They cover the results, but we still don't
get it for the younger demographics that are not hearing about us on TV. I don't know if it is because it's just not
something that they listen to ‑‑
3762 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: I asked about television because
you have already mentioned print and radio.
3763 MR. DART: Yes, absolutely.
3764 On the A‑Channel
they do cover us that way, but still not in‑depth; nothing that we are
doing for ‑‑ like buying any media time with them or anything
like that, because we don't feel that it is going to hit our demographics
still.
3765 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Mr. Lazar, is it the same for
you?
3766 MR. LAZAR: Yes.
Actually, when it even comes, say, to TV, it is pretty much hit or miss,
a great example being ‑‑ I think it was about two weeks
ago. We had finished our final regular
season game ‑‑ or our first playoff game. We called in, as we do every night ‑‑
our games finish, generally, about 10:30 p.m.
We called it in, to get it in for the 11 o'clock news that our game had
been played, and the funny comment that was made by the sports person there
was, "Oh, you guys were playing tonight?
I forgot about that," and that was it.
3767 Hopefully, that
night, something did get on there, but it's really hit or miss whether they are
even aware of it, despite the fact that we try to send out one or two media
releases to TV, print, or a couple of radio stations. It's completely hit or miss whether they even
pick up on it, and then whether they want to bother reporting it.
3768 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: If we were to licence the Rogers' application
for pod fm, what would be your expectation?
3769 That is, what
would you expect Rogers to do for both of your leagues?
3770 MR. DART: I think the big thing is ‑‑
and we have seen it from the television side.
Rogers covered the majority of our games, and all of the games in the
playoffs were covered.
3771 So we would expect
that, since we have a good working relationship at a league level, it would
continue on the radio side.
3772 One of the other
things, in conjunction with what Alan was saying, was that we had a situation
last summer ‑‑ and this is going back to the print side ‑‑
where the reporters were on vacation. We
got no coverage whatsoever. Like,
nothing.
3773 And it was at a
point where we were actually competing for first place for the league pennant,
and they just said, "Everyone is on vacation, so you won't have any
coverage whatsoever."
3774 We thought that,
for the size of the town we have, there should have been some sort of coverage.
3775 That is where we
are missing out on ‑‑ consistency, I guess, is probably the
biggest thing. We need something that is
not only going to be, like Alan was saying, hit and miss, we need something
consistent. We can't build our brand on
hit and miss. It really has to be
something that is going to be ongoing, and build it into our strategy as well.
3776 If we can't
actually get to the demographics that we need, what do we do? It's back to word of mouth, and word of mouth
doesn't really cut it too much, in our minds anyway.
3777 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Anything to add, Mr. Lazar?
3778 MR. LAZAR: I don't have much to add. I think that expectations are, simply ‑‑
again, as has already been said ‑‑ regular, consistent
exposure to the team.
3779 The nice part with
a medium like pod fm is the fact that we know that we will be able to get the
score out there. If there are major
things happening ‑‑
3780 We had one of our
players, mid‑season, signed by the Toronto Argonauts, and nothing got out
about that.
3781 We signed another
player who had been a Vanier Cup MVP, et cetera, and yet, if it gets out there,
it is completely by chance.
3782 The other part,
too ‑‑ I think the fun part about pod fm is that it brings an
interactive element. It would allow
someone at the game, for example, to contact pod fm and say, "Hey, this is
a great thing that's going on."
3783 It helps to really
create awareness, and, also, it really gives people a true feel of what these
events are about, what is going on, so that people understand that this is a
true event, it's a family event, it's a lot of fun, and it really hits that
demographic.
3784 Sometimes it is
more about the enthusiasm that is caught up by:
"Who else is out there?"
They know that "somebody else in my age group is out there having a
great time. Hey, maybe I should be out
there, too."
3785 You miss a lot of
that, for example, in the print medium, which may have no interest in what it's
covering.
3786 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Thank you very much.
3787 Mr. McLean, just a
couple of questions for you.
3788 Have you been able
to quantify how many artists from the London area have participated in North by
Northeast, say, in the last five years?
3789 MR. McLEAN: I have last year's figures, actually.
3790 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Oh, that's good. You came prepared.
3791 MR. McLEAN: I believe there were 61 applications that we
took from the London area, and we invited 11 acts to actually showcase. Three of those acts made it onto our top
sheet ‑‑ Top 60 ‑‑ which we started this year.
3792 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: And I do agree with you, there
is nothing like live music.
3793 MR. McLEAN: Well, let's hope not; otherwise, we are all
in trouble.
--- Laughter / Rires
3794 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: What is the concert scene in
London?
3795 Are there large
venues, medium‑size venues?
3796 MR. McLEAN: In this proposal, what we have done is put
together a list of ‑‑ this would be a university ‑‑
kind of a Frosh Week tour. We have
identified a dozen venues ‑‑ for example, Fanshawe College in London. We would do Western, obviously, and then
there would be other areas in the 519 area ‑‑ Kitchener,
Conestoga College.
3797 There is a whole
list in the application here of where we would actually send these bands, and
they are well‑established campus venues.
3798 We would make sure
that the bands going in there would get the best opportunity they could, in
terms of production, that we would enhance production in whatever facilities
are in there already.
3799 It's a good
circuit to be on. It's the campus
circuit. It is usually quite a step
above where they would normally be able to get access. These bands would be seeing it as a major
opportunity to build their audience directly with the student population at
universities.
3800 Usually, this kind
of thing would be out of their reach, because they would be bands at a higher
level.
3801 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: I saw Teenage Head at my
university pub.
3802 That may date me,
but it is a fact.
3803 MR. McLEAN: Frankie Venom, RIP. Unfortunately, he died.
3804 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Yes, I know.
3805 Thank you very
much, gentlemen, for your participation this morning.
3806 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Messrs. McLean,
Lazar and Dart, for your presentation.
3807 We will now move
to the next group of intervenors, Madam Secretary.
3808 THE
SECRETARY: Thank you.
3809 I would now call
Mr. Dennis Burns, Ontario Federation of Snowmobile Clubs, and the Downchild
Blues Band to appear as a panel and present their interventions.
3810 Please introduce
yourself for the record. You will have
10 minutes for your presentation.
INTERVENTION
3811 MR. TAYLOR: Good morning, Mr. Chair, members of the
Commission, and Commission staff. My
name is Earl Taylor. I am not Dennis
Burns. I am the Executive Director of
the Canadian Organization of Campus Activities.
I am here, primarily, in my volunteer role as one of the vice chairs of
the Great Lakes Blues Society.
3812 My colleague,
Dennis Burns, unfortunately, was unable to attend this hearing at the last
minute, so he asked me to read his statement for him. So, with your permission, I will do that.
3813 I should preface
this by saying that many of the comments ‑‑ or most of the
comments that Dennis makes in his statement are supported by members of the
executive of the Great Lakes Blues Society, which is the blues organization in
London, Ontario.
3814 I will start his
letter:
"I am providing this letter to
be read by one of my fellow Blues Society members in support of the above‑noted
application..."
3815 ‑‑ and
that is for the DAWG FM blues station in London ‑‑
"...since I am, regrettably,
unable to attend due to trial commitments in London today.
By way of introduction, my name is Dennis Burns. I am a lawyer in London, and have been for
more than 28 years. I have been certified
by the Law Society of Upper Canada as a specialist in family law since May
1996.
I am also, and have been for some 40 years, an avid blues music fan and
a supporter of this genre, the original music of North American popular music.
As a supporter and fan, I am, and have been for more than four years,
Vice‑Chairman and Treasurer of the Great Lakes Blues Society. The mandate of the Great Lakes Blues Society
is, for want of a better expression, to keep the blues alive.
We do so by producing and promoting live events, featuring blues artists
from Canada, the U.S., and abroad, and also through our 'Blues in the Schools'
program, where we bring blues artists to elementary schools in London and the
surrounding areas to teach students about blues music, its African roots, and
its blending with other North American musical forms, which result in the
variety of popular music that we enjoy today.
We do our best to bring the 'Blues in the Schools' program to elementary
school students without any cost to the school boards, and never any cost to
the students themselves.
All of the students and teachers are left with a greater knowledge and a
joy for the blues, music which has uplifted many generations of music fans
around the world for many years.
Additionally, as an integral part of our mandate, we raise money for
charities, mostly local, grassroots, Canadian-registered organizations, which
do not have the kind of high profile required to raise funds on a national, or
even regional basis.
On occasion, we have also raised money for international charities
during times of extreme need ‑‑ for example, the Tsunami
Relief Fund in January 2005, and our 'Blues for Katrina' effort in October
2005, to aid the victims of Hurricane Katrina, which wreaked so much
destruction, particularly in New Orleans, and especially amongst the poor.
Over the past four years, I believe we have raised, or helped to raise,
well over $50,000 for those in need. We
do this through our events, and with the support of the artists who perform,
and the dedicated blues fans who pay generously to attend the events, and then
contribute more by participating in silent auctions, raffles and other
fundraising activities.
That brings me to this application.
Although blues is undeniably the true original North American music, it
suffers from a lack of exposure in the media, most noticeably on the
radio. There are very few, if any, blues
stations that are available, except via satellite.
The fans are there, but there is no affordable way for them to connect to
the music on a day‑to‑day basis.
I go to Chicago periodically, where you will see many young people
attending blues events, whether the venue is a festival or a nightclub. They enjoy and connect with the music just as
much as the more, shall I say, mature fans do.
Blues music spans not only generations, but also many geographical and
geopolitical areas. If you go to the
Blues Foundation website, you will see that there are blues societies listed
from virtually every corner of the globe.
Blues musicians tour worldwide, and are very warmly received wherever
they go.
Music Maker Relief Foundation is a North Carolina charitable
organization of which I am proud to be a member. It is dedicated to preserving blues music and
assisting blues musicians. One of its
mottos is 'Preserving music by preserving musicians.'
It accomplishes this by giving grants of money to those who are in
need. It also gets work for these
professional musicians through its own record label and through concerts in the
U.S.A., France, other European countries, South America, and elsewhere in the
world.
Music Maker rocks the Senate and House of Representatives at its annual
Congressional Blues Festival, which is held each spring at the Kennedy Plaza in
Washington, D.C. I believe that 2009
will be its sixth annual event.
Music Maker is able to do all of this with donations from people in all
walks of life. There was one donor early
in Music Maker's history, when it was a fledgling organization, who dropped off
a bank draft for $100,000.
There are many who help, both rich and poor, by donating whatever they
can in money or time, but they all have one thing in common, a love of blues
music.
There are other organizations like Music Maker, and there are many blues
societies that work in the same way, but on a smaller scale. The point is, those who love and support
blues are passionate about the music and the artists who make it.
Blues is woven into the fabric of North American society. It crosses all boundaries and is colour
blind.
While I recall reading a very good article in National Geographic a few
years ago about the Blues Highway, I also recall another excellent piece in
that publication about the universal language of the blues and its symbolism in
different forms to all who play it.
There is not only Mississippi Delta, Hill Country, Chicago and Texas
blues, each of which has its own style and tradition, there is also distinctive
Canadian ‑‑ East Coast, Quebec, Ontario and Western
Canada ‑‑ blues forms.
Each speaks to listeners in a different style, but it is all the blues.
A very wise bluesman named Willie Dixon once said, 'Blues will never
die, not as long as people work and play and live and love.'
As has been said often, and by many, blues is truth, but people need to
have a chance to be exposed to the art form readily and regularly. Radio is a medium that can accomplish that.
Here in London we have a very rich blues tradition. You will, no doubt, hear from colleagues of
mine who have been in the blues music business going on 35 years, all due to
their love of the music. You might hear
from some of our very accomplished musicians.
You might hear from those who own blues clubs. You might hear from others like me, who
simply have been and continue to be moved by the music.
Whatever you hear will be from the heart. No one has gotten rich through blues music,
in a monetary sense, but many have been immeasurably enriched by it, even those
who do not necessarily know it is because, without the blues, there would be no
jazz, or rock and roll, or rap, or other popular forms.
However, the genre needs help to continue to grow. The musicians, especially local artists, need
an outlet for their talents. Fans need
the exposure to the music on easily available commercial radio. Club owners and their staff will, in turn,
benefit, as will advertisers and other businesses, and ultimately our blues
education program, 'Blues in the Schools', because we cannot make that work
without the assistance of local businesses.
I want to thank you for your time and attention to this, and to the
application for this broadcast licence.
Sincerely, Dennis Burns, Vice‑Chairman and Treasurer, Great Lakes
Blues Society."
3816 Thank you very
much. I am prepared to answer any
questions you might have, even though I am not named on the original
application.
3817 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Taylor. We will hear the two other intervenors, and
after that we will, surely, have questions for you.
3818 THE
SECRETARY: Thank you.
3819 The Ontario
Federation of Snowmobile Clubs. Please
introduce yourself. You will have 10
minutes to make your presentation.
INTERVENTION
3820 MR. BLAICHER: My name is John Blaicher, and I am a staff
person at the Ontario Federation of Snowmobile Clubs.
3821 I would like to
thank the CRTC, first, for allowing our organization to be represented at this
hearing and speak in support of Ed Torres' application for two new radio
station licences.
3822 Snowmobiling is an
iconic Canadian recreation activity, invented by a Canadian, and enjoyed each
winter by hundreds of thousands of outdoor enthusiasts, including many Guelph
and St. Thomas area residents.
3823 The Ontario
Federation of Snowmobile Clubs is a non‑profit, volunteer‑driven
organization. The 235 community service
clubs that form the OFSC operate the world's longest integrated recreational
trail network. Believe it or not, it is
over 41,000 kilometres in length, which represents more kilometres than there
are provincial highways, which many people aren't aware of.
3824 About 2,500 kilometres
of these trails are located in an arc around Guelph and St. Thomas, and are
easily accessible to area residents.
3825 Economic impact
studies confirm that OFSC snowmobile trails generate $1 billion in economic
activity annually, primarily in rural and northern Ontario, while also
contributing many millions more in tax revenues to government coffers.
3826 These winter‑only
trails are operated by community‑based, not‑for‑profit
snowmobile clubs, and provide numerous social, recreational and health benefits
to countless Ontarians in their home towns.
3827 Moreover, these
snowmobile trails provide hundreds of rural communities and their residents
with significant winter livelihoods, helping to sustain many families in an
otherwise traditionally dormant and difficult season.
3828 The OFSC clubs
operate trails directly north of the Guelph and St. Thomas area, on private
land, generously donated by local landowners, and many area residents access
these trails for their winter recreation.
3829 As local service
clubs, snowmobile clubs benefit charity, running numerous events, including our
annual Snowarama rides, which have raised over $16 million, to date, to support
the Easter Seal Society of Ontario for children with physical disabilities.
3830 Local clubs are
also involved in delivering safety education for young snowmobilers through the
OFSC driver training program, an authorized program by the Ontario Ministry of
Transportation.
3831 To date, almost
6,000 teenagers have graduated from OFSC driver training courses.
3832 Rural values are
the foundation of the Ontario Federation of Snowmobile Clubs in small‑town
Ontario. We are all about generous local
people, freely sharing their time, efforts, or land, for the greater well‑being
of their home communities and fellow residents.
3833 Through our local
service clubs and volunteers, the OFSC delivers important safety and
environment programs, and we rely extensively on local contacts, especially
local radio, to get our messages out, to promote our fundraising and charity
events, and to help save lives.
3834 Unfortunately, our
ability to reliably and consistently do this varies considerably from town to
town and time to time.
3835 To date, no
existing broadcasting company has stepped to our plate to help us put together
a provincial radio messaging education and information campaign, through
multiple station outlets, in various markets ‑‑ no one, that
is, except Skywords, Frank and Ed Torres.
3836 The OFSC began to
work with Ed and Frank Torres and Skywords several years ago. Not only have they over-delivered on all
their community service efforts on behalf of our clubs and volunteers, in
multiple markets, they have approached us, again and again, to get our message
out in new ways, and into new markets, where we have previously been unable to
find willing radio partners.
3837 Skywords has
proved to be an exceptional media partner, that has gone out of its way to
serve our non‑profit, volunteer‑based organization in a variety of
ways. We have always been impressed by
their willingness to try new ideas, to create innovative opportunities, and to
work at the grassroots level.
3838 For example, the
OFSC is comprised of 235 community clubs, in 17 districts, and when we asked
Skywords to assist Ontarians by developing a much needed radio trail report
throughout the winter, Ed and Frank Torres personally attended meetings in most
OFSC districts to meet our volunteers and hear what each community needed.
3839 As a result,
Skywords has served many rural and northern communities very well by promoting
events, delivering safety messaging, and encouraging the snowmobile tourism on
which so many of these small snowbelt towns depend each winter.
3840 The point of all
of this background is that Ed and Frank Torres have proved to be willing,
effective, motivated, and generous partners in assisting the OFSC and its clubs
to achieve our community service mandate.
3841 More than any
other broadcasting company, Skywords has demonstrated its commitment and
ability to growing and improving the benefits of organized snowmobiling for
communities throughout snowbelt Ontario.
3842 So when the OFSC
learned of the Skywords radio application for a blues radio station in Guelph
and St. Thomas, we knew that one result would be new and effective community
service access to thousands of listeners who we have not previously been able
to reach, either frequently or affordably, through existing radio outlets.
3843 Guelph and St.
Thomas has a significant mix of urban and rural, where snowmobiling is integral
to its winter recreation opportunities, yet neither local nor area residents
are well served with regular news, information, and updates supporting these
two regions of the province. We are
confident that this will change dramatically with a new Skywords radio station
in the area.
3844 Knowing their
passion for radio, their commitment to the experience, and community service,
we are especially pleased to support the Skywords' application for a blues
radio station in Guelph and St. Thomas.
These two new stations will provide listeners with a music choice that
is presently absent from this rapidly growing market, and an opportunity to be
involved with, and benefit from, a very community‑minded broadcaster.
3845 There are three
tangible ways that they actually have served us over the last number of years
that I would like to share with you.
3846 We talked about
them helping us in supporting charitable events. That's one.
But they have really gone to bat to assist us in developing better radio
public service messages to drive our volunteer recruitment strategy, because we
depend on volunteers to do most of our business, to help us reduce the
incidents of snowmobile injury and death in this province, which, at times, may
appear to be catastrophic ‑‑ the good news is that they don't
happen, for the most part, on our trail system, they happen off our trail ‑‑
and, also, to educate Ontarians about the responsibility they have to use our
trails in an environmentally responsible way.
3847 If I could, I would
like to give you an example of three public service messages that Skywords has
helped us produce. They have
choreographed them, helped us to script them, and actually assisted us in their
production.
3848 It may seem like a
small gesture, but when you are looking at limited dollars, and trying to
outreach and compete amongst many other different messages being played on the
air, it really does help to have experts helping you do the job.
3849 The first is a
safety message, which is 30 seconds in length.
--- Audio clip / Clip audio
3850 MR. BLAICHER: The second is a message ‑‑
because we rely on thousands of volunteers to support our business. In fact, we have over 7,000 dedicated
volunteers, representing the 235 snowmobile clubs in the province, and we estimate
that the volunteer contingent supports about 265,000 family riders.
3851 Snowmobiling is
big business, but we are sometimes challenged to communicate these important
messages, and we want to be as environmentally responsible as we can, as
stewards of this land, so this is one of the environment messages that will
play across a network of stations this winter.
--- Audio clip / Clip audio
3852 MR. BLAICHER: The last one addresses the need to recruit
volunteers.
--- Audio clip / Clip audio
3853 MR. BLAICHER: Now, we do have a budget and we do invest in
radio and television and print advertising to help get our message out.
3854 One of the other
things that Skywords, Frank and Ed Torres, has helped us do is to take
that budget allotment and, as volunteers to their company, they have contacted
each of our radio stations partners, the over 68 radio stations in the
province, and have tried to lever or our investment to a higher level.
3855 Their expertise in
doing radio and television buys, their connections in the industry and their
first‑hand often knowledge of who owns the stations has helped us take
our $180,000 annual media budget and lever it to the point that we now are
documenting over a half a million in media messaging.
3856 It's just their
commitment to try to help an organization who has limited resources by
applying their expertise and knowledge and it's been unwavering. There have been many examples of where
we have needed help and we have gone to Ed ‑‑ I know
Ed more specifically than Frank ‑‑ and it's always
been there.
3857 We just launched
a ‑‑
3858 ASSISTANT
SECRETARY: Excuse me, sir. This is the Hearing Secretary. You have one minute remaining.
3859 MR. BLAICHER: Okay.
3860 ASSISTANT
SECRETARY: Please conclude your...
3861 MR. BLAICHER: Okay.
Thank you.
3862 We just launched a
Take a Friend Snowmobiling challenge in hoping that existing snowmobilers could
recruit a friend, take them out and by exposing them to the sport maybe recruit
a new customer. So we have launched a
contest. Ed helped us gain some
prizes. He has put up, you know, a
Langford canoe that will be one of the prizes.
3863 We had a
snowmobile show happen in Toronto only three weeks ago and we wanted to do
something for the young kids attending the show so we launched what was
called The Incredible Critters Zone so kids could come in and actually learn
about the animals they might see on the trail or even some that might be
hibernating in the winter. Ed again
stepped to the table and Skywords sponsored that section of the show.
3864 So it's not only
their commitment to help us as an organization, lever our dollars better, get
better messaging out to the public, but it's also their philanthropic
contribution when we have needed help that has impressed us.
3865 So it is time to
reward them and to support their application and we are happy to be here to do
that.
3866 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
Mr. Blaicher.
3867 ASSISTANT
SECRETARY: Thank you.
3868 Downchild Blues
Band, please introduce yourself for the record and you have 10 minutes for
your presentation.
INTERVENTION
3869 MR. JACKSON: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.
3870 My name is Chuck
Jackson, I'm the singer of the Downtown Blues Band. We have been together for over 40 years and
we have won numerous awards. We have
been nominated or won five Junos, we have won 50 Canadian blues awards and have
performed all over the world, Europe and Canada, United States and Central
America, and I am very proud to be here to support the blues format radio
station in London.
3871 I think it's a
wonderful thing. It certainly gives
opportunity for a lot of bands such as ourselves, bands that have been in the
business for years and years, and also newer bands starting out to promote
their CDs. It gives an opportunity to promote
their performances that are coming up.
3872 I know for sure
that when we come to London to have an opportunity to do some advance
advertising, to do interviews with some of the DJs, to promote the show that we
will be doing would be a great advantage to us and certainly to all the other
groups that would be performing also.
3873 Blues music is
certainly loved by a whole group of people.
I would like to tell you a story that happened to me one time after a
show. A young girl 19 years old came up
to me and said, "Well, Mr. Jackson, Downchild Blues Band, you're
really great. You're a great blues
band. I didn't think I would like
it. You know, I didn't think I would
like the blues, but my grandparents have all your records and they made me
come."
3874 And I just thought
it was quite funny that this young girl came with her grandparents, and her
parents were there, so we had three generations of blues lovers that were at
the Downchild Blues Band concert that day and she walked away a blues fan, like
so many young audiences do, and it helps create a lot of young performers
themselves.
3875 We have had the
pleasure of playing with a lot of kids now that are 15, 16, 17, in their 20s,
playing the blues and being very dedicated to it.
3876 I also, besides being
the singer for Downchild, I am the founder and the Artistic Director of the
Southside Shuffle Blues and Jazz Festival in Mississauga. We celebrated our 10th year and this year we
actually drew 75,000 people to our five‑day festival. We had people from all over the world come to
the festival. It just goes to show how
widespread the love and dedication of the blues is.
3877 One thing that we
do at the festival, too, is also we try to do a show that's called The Junior
Jam, it's all children under 18 that perform the blues. We close our street and have basically a New
Orleans type activity going there where people are ‑‑ there
are 35 bands, mostly bands from places like Timmins, you know, Sudbury. We bring in people from all over Ontario to
play and showcase their music and sell CDs.
3878 This is great and
it would be another great opportunity for festivals to promote on the radio
station, which I think would be a great advantage.
3879 Basically, there
is a festival going on somewhere in Canada every weekend of the year. And we played the Blues Festival here in
London, Windsor and other areas that would be certainly in the range of the
radio station that would be a good advantage for us to promote blues and the festivals
that are happening and the individual shows that different performers play at
in bars and restaurants and things like that.
3880 So I'm very happy
to be here and I just feel it's a wonderful opportunity for all the Canadian
blues artists and the chance to have their music played on a 24‑hour
format blues station.
3881 So I thank you
very much.
3882 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
Mr. Jackson.
3883 Commissioner
Simpson...?
3884 COMMISSIONER
SIMPSON: Thank you very much.
3885 Going back to the
relationship that the snowmobile club ‑‑ I'm sorry, I
will start with that question first.
3886 Was it you that
had made the approach to ‑‑ how did that relationship get
started to the point where it is as strong as it is today apparently?
3887 MR. BLAICHER: Well, we knew that Skywords Radio was delivering
important traffic reports across the GTA and on many radio stations across the
province and we had the challenge to try and deliver a snowmobile trail
condition report so that much of our audience ‑‑ I believe
that half of our snowmobile client group lives south of Highway 7 so they don't
reside in the north, they have permanent residence in the south but they travel
to the north, so it is important to give them good trail condition report
information. That was our first
approach.
3888 When we made that
call, we found out that Ed and Frank Torres were new recruits to
snowmobiling. They had just bought
machines, they were very passionate about it and their enthusiasm for the sport
and our need to do a better job in our business created this partnership. It has really been a marvel.
3889 Like I said, any
time we have asked for help, they have been there to help us.
3890 COMMISSIONER
SIMPSON: Thank you.
3891 Mr. Taylor, what
is it that drew you to the blues, and your circle of friends? What do you feel is the common thread that
makes you a devotee?
3892 MR. TAYLOR: Well,
I think that blues is clearly the
basis of most popular music that we hear today on the radio that buys the CDs
and so on. It is, I suppose, an
attraction to the roots of our popular music.
3893 I have been
involved with music for many years, not only in London. Before I'm doing what I do now, I was a
nightclub owner in Montréal, I was a music promoter for McGill University, so I
have been exposed to popular music for many years, and blues as part of
that. It was a love of the music I think
that drew a group of us together in London to form the Great Lakes Blues
Society and promote that genre specifically.
3894 COMMISSIONER
SIMPSON: You had mentioned you were in
the entertainment and promotion business as a nightclub owner, and others
have. I suppose this question is
directed to both yourself and Mr. Jackson.
3895 As promoters,
players of blues, what kind of demographic are you seeing turned out?
3896 I was impressed
with the 75,000 figure that you drew in Mississauga, but I'm curious if you
could give me a cross‑section. I'm
hearing that the blues is for all ages, but I'm just wondering if that is
actually what's happening in terms of the kind of fan support you get at the
turnstile.
3897 MR. TAYLOR: Well, I think that the kind of
demographic ‑‑ the story that you mentioned, Chuck ‑‑
the key supporters are, I would say, over 40, but we are finding that as we
promote to students in London, of both Fanshawe College and the University of
Western Ontario, we are seeing more and more of the younger generation
discovering that the roots basis of the music that they listen to, all the
different genres, that being the blues.
So we are getting some good turnouts from the younger generation.
3898 Also, as Chuck
alluded to, we are seeing a lot of very young blues musicians coming out of the
woodwork. I mean we had ‑‑
before each of our general meetings we have local artists do a spotlight set
for 45 minutes, and one of those ‑‑ one of those local
musicians was a fellow, I don't know, 12 or 14 years old. I mean he was just a whiz on the guitar,
still had a lot of maturing to do, but I mean that's the kind of thing that we
are promoting and we are seeing some good results from that.
3899 MR. JACKSON: I think it's really become almost the
contemporary music for the boomers. You
know, the thing about the blues that's happening is we are getting original
music. All the musicians are writing new
music so you are getting an opportunity to hear new music instead of hearing
oldies and songs that we probably heard a million times. I think that there is a real need out there
for that.
3900 As I was saying
earlier, there are so many young musicians getting involved in the blues now.
3901 So obviously I say
the core audiences are boomers from 40 to 65, but there are also great ‑‑
it's the kind of music that you can bring your whole family. You can bring your kids out and have a great
time, you know.
3902 People have to
realize that, like any kind of music, there is a lot of different styles
of blues, there is blues, jump blues, country blues, you know, there is blues
that everybody loves to dance to. You
can dance all night to the blues and you can also sit and listen to a single
person play guitar and harmonica.
So there's Kansas City blues which has lots of horns and big band
arrangement. So there is a great
variety.
3903 COMMISSIONER
SIMPSON: I think I'm hearing you say the
blues has been around so long that it's ‑‑ or it is so old
it's new again.
3904 MR. JACKSON: Pretty much, you're right.
3905 COMMISSIONER
SIMPSON: Yes.
3906 The last
question. This is to the genre because
radio is a commercial business and as such there is not only the responsibility
of the station to its community, to its marketplace, but there is a
responsibility in making sure that it's financially successful.
3907 Any of you can
weigh in on this, but if you could give me an idea of your perception of
whether or not blues is going from the edges to the middle of society's
appetite for music and how a broadcaster that chooses to go this route with a
programming format like this would be able to resonate with the community.
3908 Because again, as
a promoter for example, there is a big difference between mainstream rock 'n roll
and the blues because it's a more refined ‑‑ perhaps may be
characterized as a more refined music style.
3909 So this is a
commercial question, you know: Can a
station like this in your mind get to the core of a community and still be
viable?
3910 I know you're not
broadcasters ‑‑
3911 MR. TAYLOR: Yes.
3912 COMMISSIONER
SIMPSON: ‑‑ but you know I'm talking appetite, taste levels
and residency in a market.
3913 MR. TAYLOR: Well, again, as was alluded to earlier, there
are so many variations of the blues.
You know, there is blues‑based rock and roll, there is Southern
Fried Blues, there is Mississippi Blues.
3914 Our Blues Society
tends to be more of a purist. The
music that we promote tends to be more what we call pure blues, but you know in
terms of mainstream radio I don't see any problem at all with satisfying a more
mainstream audience and not just the blues purists.
3915 MR. JACKSON: I think one thing that we are seeing is that
all the communities across Canada, including the capital in Ottawa, the largest
vessel in North America is in Ottawa, the largest blues festival. It is a five‑day festival. Communities, if you even look in this area
with London and Kitchener and places like Guelph, they all have blues
festivals.
3916 You know, we are not
seeing country music festivals happening in all these areas, we are not seeing,
you know, hard rock concerts outdoors in these festivals. I can think blues is a music that I think
everyone including the communities feel, and the cities behind them, that they
can put their money in and they can get people coming out and enjoying it.
3917 COMMISSIONER
SIMPSON: Thank you.
3918 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Gentlemen, thank you for
your presentation.
3919 This ends Phase
III of the public hearing. We will now
move to ‑‑
‑‑‑ Pause
3920 THE
CHAIRPERSON: I think we are going to
take a break.
‑‑‑ Laughter
/ Rires
‑‑‑ Upon
recessing at 1020 / Suspension à 1020
‑‑‑ Upon
resuming at 1040 / Reprise à 1040
3921 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Order, please. À
l'ordre, s'il vous plaît.
3922 Madam Secretary,
we are now starting Phase IV of the public hearing.
3923 ASSISTANT
SECRETARY: Mr. Chairman, for the record,
before we proceed with Phase IV, I wish to inform you that the applicant
Frank Torres has submitted, in response to undertaking, a revised CCD
chart and a proposed alternative reallocation of CCD funds.
3924 As well, My
Broadcasting Corporation has submitted, in response to undertaking as well, a
breakdown of CCD commitment.
3925 Third, also for
the record, Rogers Broadcasting Limited has submitted a final projection,
including a breakdown web interactive cost and a revised CCD expenditure, in
response to undertaking.
3926 These documents
will be added to the public record and copies are available in the examination
room.
3927 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
3928 ASSISTANT
SECRETARY: Now we will proceed to Phase
IV in which applicants can reply to all interventions submitted on their
application.
3929 Applicants appear
in reverse order, so I would now ask My Broadcasting Corporation to come
forward.
‑‑‑ Pause
3930 ASSISTANT
SECRETARY: I would ask you to please
reintroduce yourself for the record and then you have 10 minutes for this
purpose.
REPLY / RÉPLIQUE
3931 MR. POLE: Thank you.
3932 My name is Jon
Pole. I am the President of My
Broadcasting Corporation and to my right is Andrew Dickson, the Vice President
of My Broadcasting Corporation.
3933 We would just like
to take this opportunity to be brief and have it on record that we would like
to show our acknowledgment and our thanks to the close to 1,000 people in the
city of St. Thomas who have showed their support for our application and at the
same time have it on the record that we would like to thank the Chamber of
Commerce in St. Thomas, as well as the City of St. Thomas for their support in
our application, and as well thank the Commissioner and the staff of the
Commission for their support and taking the time to hear our application.
3934 Thank you.
3935 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr.
Pole.
3936 Madam Secretary...?
3937 ASSISTANT
SECRETARY: I will now ask Frank Torres
to come forward.
‑‑‑ Pause
3938 ASSISTANT
SECRETARY: I would just ask you to
please reintroduce yourself for the record.
REPLY / RÉPLIQUE
3939 MR. E.
TORRES: Yes, good morning.
3940 My name is Ed
Torres, I am the President of Skywords and the Chairman of CIDG‑FM. Beside me is my brother, Frank Torres and
Yves Trottier to his left.
3941 Good morning, Mr.
Chair, CRTC Commissioners, CRTC staff. I
would like to thank our 670 supporters for this application that supported and
the support of blues fans, musicians, venue owners and record labels that have
supported us.
3942 Particularly, I
would like to thank the supporting intervenors.
I would like to put that on the record.
They took time out of their busy days.
3943 You have just
heard from John Blaicher from the OFSC, Earl Taylor representing
Great Lakes Blues Society, and Chuck Jackson of the Downchild Blues
Band. We want that to be reflected
in the record.
3944 And because there
were no interventions opposing our Blues FM application, we would just like to
close by a thank you to the CRTC, thank you for hearing this application; thank
you to the CRTC staff for their hard work to facilitate this process.
3945 Merci.
3946 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Torres.
3947 I know legal
counsel has a question for you.
3948 MR. McINTYRE: All right.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
3949 I just have one
question of clarification.
3950 In your
application you submitted that you would commit to 25 per cent
Category 3 and yesterday you said that in fact you would commit to
20 per cent as a COL.
3951 Am I understanding
your commitment correctly?
3952 MR. TROTTIER: Yes, that is correct.
3953 MR. McINTYRE: I guess my question is: Would you accept a Commission COL to hold you
to that 25 per cent commitment?
3954 MR. TROTTIER: Yes, we will.
3955 MR. McINTYRE: Thank you.
3956 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Gentlemen, thank you very
much.
3957 Madam
Secretary...?
3958 ASSISTANT
SECRETARY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
3959 United Christian
Broadcasters of Canada, please come forward.
‑‑‑ Pause
3960 ASSISTANT
SECRETARY: Please reintroduce yourself
for the record and you have 10 minutes.
REPLY / RÉPLIQUE
3961 MR. HUNT: Thank you.
Good morning.
3962 My name is James
Hunt. I am the COO all of UCB Canada.
3963 Mr. Chairman,
Commissioners, Commission staff, there were six points raised yesterday by
Sound of Faith and I will just respond to those quickly.
3964 The first point
was: Why would UCB apply for a station
in London where our website, quotes ‑‑ that we would not do
this if there was an existing Christian station in the market.
3965 Mr. Elliott quoted
the UCB international website, not the UCB Canada one, and he quoted from the
website directly and I just want to paraphrase:
to establish Christian ‑‑ the goal is to establish
Christian stations where there is an open door and to birth a work in new areas
and not adequately covered.
3966 When a group of
local business leaders and church leaders asked UCB Canada to come into the
London community, to us that constitutes a fairly open door.
3967 The second point
there is, this is an area that is not currently adequately covered, which is
the very premise of UCB Canada being invited, as well as Sound of Faith's
application. That's what they based
their application on.
3968 So I don't see a
contradiction in any of the goals on that point.
3969 Point number two,
the point was raised regarding a national licence application and not
rebroadcasting where there is an existing station.
3970 This has nothing
to do with the application that is sitting before you at the moment. Rebroadcasting was never mentioned in our
application or during the hearings. We
have been very clear that this will be a local station for the Christian
community in the community employing people from the community.
3971 Point number
three, Mr. Elliott mentioned that I had met with Dr. Reid in 2007. That's true.
Actually, it was Mr. Quinn and myself and it was on the request of Dr.
Reid.
3972 The discussion
centred around the perceived notion that the CRTC had shown favour regarding
UCB Canada's previous applications and he was asking how this was achieved.
3973 What Mr. Elliott
did not say ‑‑ and he may well not be aware of it ‑‑
was that Dr. Reid and I met on the 11th of April 2008 at Michael's Grillhouse
just off County Road 59 South of Woodstock.
It was at this meeting, which I initiated and requested, that I asked
Dr. Reid if Sound of Faith had responded to the call from the CRTC. He said that they had not. I suggested to Dr. Reid that maybe we should
work together to ensure that the London and surrounding areas get a high‑powered
Christian station that can serve the Christian community. This suggestion was unacceptable to him.
3974 Working with other
stations for a common cause is not new to UCB.
In a number of cases the stations we work with are not even
affiliated to UCB. Our name defines
who we are, United Christian Broadcasters.
3975 However, the
people of London deserve a fair representation in his hearing and that is what
we committed to do.
3976 Point number four
was raised, and the assumption of Sound of Faith that Mr. Butler was
involved in the community leaders asking UCB to make an application on
their behalf before you is totally false.
3977 We had a total of
three meetings with some of the leaders involved and yet, Mr. Chair, the CRTC
received roughly 350 letters of support from London intervenors ‑‑
there were more from others ‑‑ in support of this application
without even approaching the church community.
3978 Point five, the
second to last one, Mr. Elliott mentioned that in a brief discussion with
Mr. Grieve from His Season after UBC Canada's appearing yesterday, that
Mr. Grieve would have supported the application if he had known about it.
3979 I obviously can't
comment on a discussion I was not part of.
Mr. Grieve was asked to advocate for Canadian Christian artists.
3980 What I do take
exception to is calling Mr. Grieve's integrity into question,
suggesting that he would side with the group, especially as all Christian
broadcasters benefited from Mr. Greaves appearing. He was asked to present and I'm sure you
would agree with me that Mr. Grieve's perspective on Canadian Christian
artists, the struggles they face and the Christian broadcasting landscape from
an artist's perspective was informative and very helpful.
3981 Mr. Grieve was not
coached by us and he responded with integrity and a sensitivity that brings a
level of understanding regarding a fledgling industry and I believe his
comments would help all Christian radio broadcasters, including Sound of Faith
because of his involvement.
3982 Last, Mr. Elliott
called into question the statistics we were quoting regarding the London
market, saying that only 6 per cent of the Christian population is
evangelical.
3983 We are not
targeting only the Evangelical segment of the Christian community. The wider London Christian community is
calling to be served by a high‑powered, professionally‑run
Christian radio broadcaster.
3984 We work hard and
providing balance and integrity for us is important, so we would not align
ourselves to only one segment of the Christian community. Working together, as you saw in the video, is
our preferred path.
3985 What we do we
strive to do well and we were asked to use our expertise to place an
application before you on behalf of a diverse group of London community leaders
and I believe we adequately have done that.
3986 Thank you.
3987 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Thank you.
3988 We don't have any
questions.
3989 MR. HUNT: Thank you.
3990 ASSISTANT
SECRETARY: Thank you.
3991 I will now invite
Blackburn Radio Inc. to come forward.
‑‑‑ Pause
REPLY / RÉPLIQUE
3992 MR. COSTLEY‑WHITE: Thank you.
3993 Good afternoon,
Mr. Chair, Members of the Commission and Commission staff.
3994 My name is Richard
Costley‑White and with me in this phase are Ron Dann, the General
Manager of the Blackburn stations in Sarnia; Carl Veroba ‑‑
Ron is to my left, Carl to Ron's left, our technical consultant; and Debra
McLaughlin of Strategic Inc.
3995 Ron...?
3996 MR. DANN: We understand that some of the other
applicants dispute some of the research numbers that we have presented. We are confident that the CRTC can interpret
the numbers and come to an appropriate conclusion so we won't belabour that.
3997 We had intended to
raise one matter in Phase II, however following the Chair's comments to Forest
City yesterday we decided the comments would be more appropriate in this phase
of the hearing.
3998 In response to a
question from the Panel, CTV indicated there was only one frequency available
for use in his hearing. We must beg to
differ as we believe there are a number of frequencies that could be used. In contrast to CTV in response to a similar
question, Rogers was clear that they believed there were other options open as
well.
3999 We would like to
explain why we believe there are opportunities to license more than one private
commercial radio station in London and I would like to ask Carl Veroba to
explain.
4000 MR. VEROBA: Thank you, Ron.
4001 Good morning,
Chair and Commissioners.
4002 First of all, it's
important to note that we originally applied for 91.1 and submitted a technical
brief for that frequency. Our
application to Industry Canada was subject to a valid objection from Global
Television's Channel 6 service in Paris.
4003 Our consulting
engineer, Jim Moltner of Technics, believes that with the careful design of a
new transmitter facility and certain guarantees to Global their objection can
be overcome, making the use of 91.1 a viable option in London.
4004 The proposed new
service on 91.1 would not interfere with Global TV and we are
confident that we can provide the necessary guarantees to satisfy them.
4005 Second, there are
a number of frequencies that are available to other applicants at this
hearing. In each case only one applicant
can use the frequency as it would cause some interference to other stations in
the surrounding markets.
4006 Let me take you
through these opportunities.
4007 Rogers could use
96.9 by accepting interference to their 96.7 in Kitchener. This is similar to the application you will
hear shortly in the Guelph portion of this hearing. In that case Corus is applying to convert
their AM station in Guelph to 95.7. Only
Corus can use this frequency as it would cause interference to their London
station CFPL‑FM.
4008 CTV could use
101.9 by co‑siting and combining that signal with their existing Bob FM
on a common antenna to provide a single adjacent service ‑‑ a
second adjacent service to BOB FM, which broadcasts on 102.3. These frequencies would only be available to
Rogers or CTV.
4009 There is another
frequency that could be used by Blackburn and no other applicant as well,
although it is a bit more complicated.
It would depend on your decision regarding the Sound of Faith
application to use 99.9.
4010 We are currently
operating that same frequency in Sarnia and Sound of Faith has agreed to accept
any interference that the Sarnia station would cause. Our engineers tell us that the Sound of Faith
facility might have a difficult time covering the market on 99.9 and it may be
possible to upgrade their existing facilities to an A1 protected status on
their current frequency of 105.9.
4011 However, the first
concern would be get their existing facilities up to full power. As you heard yesterday, or on Monday, they
are operating at only 6 W.
4012 After their
appearance on Monday, Ron Dann and I had a short discussion with David
MacDonald and Dale Elliott of Sound of Faith and offered Blackburn's technical
expertise to get their ailing transmitter up to full operating power. They expressed interest in such help.
4013 If the Commission
does not approve the Sound of Faith application for 99.9, Blackburn believes
that we could make use of this frequency in London with interference
concessions to and from our own CFGX‑FM in Sarnia. This would require some re‑engineering
in Sarnia, but we would be willing to undertake this.
4014 We have provided
you with the summary of the viable FM frequency options for the London
market and earlier provided enough copies to the Secretary for all applicants.
4015 MR. DANN: Thank you, Carl.
4016 We would like to
clarify one matter we discussed with Commissioner Simpson. I'm not sure we were as clear as we needed to
be in a question you asked us.
4017 The audience for
our proposed format is united by a love of music. They are light users of radio and they have
an eclectic music tastes. They can be
identified by more traditional audience metrics as well.
4018 The key demographic
efficiencies for the Triple‑A format are as follows: 57.3 per cent of the audience will
be from the group 35 to 54. While we
would draw an 8.3 share of sellable tuning hours among all listeners 12‑plus,
we draw 15.5 per cent of the sellable tuning by those 35‑54 and
12.5 per cent from those 25‑54.
The audience does skew slightly female at 55.9 per cent.
4019 Now, here to sum
up once again is Richard.
4020 MR. COSTLEY‑WHITE: Well, first of all, Carl outlined the
various frequency options, but we believe we have made a good case for the use
of 98.1.
4021 But if you believe
that another use would be more appropriate, we believe that you could approve
us in part, contingent upon us finding another frequency.
4022 If you decide to
provide us with 98.1, we believe that there are options that would allow you to
approve in part any other applicant.
4023 Now, I would be
remiss if I did not thank a number of people.
Ron Dann and his team have devoted hundreds, if not thousands of hours
to writing our application, researching the market, reaching out to people in
London for input and in preparing for this hearing. Thank you very much, Ron, and your team.
4024 Second, I want to
thank the many people who took the time to write letters of support for our application. They came from a wide cross‑section of
Londoners and from people who have been served by our other stations in the
area.
4025 Community
organizations told you of how Blackburn Radio goes above and beyond the call of
duty to reflect their communities and their concerns in their programming.
4026 Business leaders
told you of the need for new radio choice in London and of our company's
credibility to the London community.
4027 Musical artists
and their representatives told you of the contribution that our radio stations
have made to their careers and of the need for a Triple‑A station that
will break the format barriers that keep them from getting the exposure that
they deserve.
4028 Finally, we would
like to thank you, Commissioners, and your staff for your courtesy and your
helpfulness and thorough examination of our application. It is clear to us that you have done your
homework.
4029 Mr. Chair, Members
of the Commission, London has been the home of Blackburn Radio since 1922,
virtually the inception of the industry.
We have operated media enterprises in London since the middle of the
19th century. Blackburn is an
established brand known for journalistic excellence, community service and
business integrity and London. We would
love the opportunity to bring our brand of radio home to London once again.
4030 Thank you.
4031 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much,
Mr. Costley‑White, Mr. Dann, Madam McLaughlin. Thank you very much for your presentation.
4032 ASSISTANT
SECRETARY: Thank you.
4033 I will now invite
Evanov Communications Inc.
‑‑‑ Pause
REPLY / RÉPLIQUE
4034 MR. EVANOV: Good morning, Chair, Commissioners and
Commission staff.
4035 My name is Paul
Evanov, Vice President of Evanov Communications Inc.
4036 I would just like
to thank you for the opportunity we have had to present a unique use
contemporary radio format to serve London and to thank you for your time over
last few days of the hearing.
4037 A special thanks
to the Secretary and the Chair for making arrangements for our speaking
intervenor, Chad, to be able to speak yesterday so he could get back to Halifax
for this morning.
4038 Thank you.
4039 THE
CHAIRPERSON: That's it?
‑‑‑ Laughter
/ Rires
4040 MR. EVANOV: That's it.
4041 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
4042 ASSISTANT
SECRETARY: Thank you.
4043 Rogers
Broadcasting Limited, please.
‑‑‑ Pause
4044 ASSISTANT
SECRETARY: Please reintroduce yourself
for the record and you have 10 minutes.
REPLY / RÉPLIQUE
4045 MR. SKI: Thank you very much.
4046 I am Paul Ski, CEO
of Rogers Radio. With me is Susan
Wheeler, VP of Regulatory Affairs for Rogers.
4047 Mr. Chair, Members
of the Commission and Commission staff, thank you again for the opportunity to
appear before you this week to present our proposal for pod fm, a new brand of
interactive radio that will respond to the tastes and media habits of London's
youth market.
4048 We also sincerely
want to thank the many intervenors who took the time to write letters of
support for our application, and to Scott, Andy and Adam who came here today to
tell you why pod fm is needed in the London market. Their contribution and interest in this
proceeding is evidence of their commitment and desire to have a radio station
that appeals to youth and young adult listeners and brings diversity to the
London radio market.
4049 The rise of user‑generated
content and its integration with more traditional content is one of the most
exciting developments to watch in today's media space.
4050 We would like to
make just one comment again about frequencies.
You have heard from others and I think you heard our thoughts the other
day that there are other frequencies that can be made available. They can be somewhat difficult and they can
be ‑‑ there are cost implications to that, but it can be done.
4051 We think that our
application best serves an underserved market in the youth market and that's
why we believe that the best use of the frequency is for our application and
that's 98.1.
4052 I think the other
point on that too, is because we have another radio station broadcasting in
Toronto at 98.1 CHFI, we are better able to manage any interference that may
take place between our station in Toronto and pod fm.
4053 We would like to
thank the staff for their assistance this week.
They have been very helpful to us, and we thank you for the opportunity
to reply to the interventions filed in support of our application and we wish
you well in your deliberations.
4054 Thank you very
much for your time.
4055 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr.
Ski. Thank you very much.
4056 Madam
Secretary...?
4057 ASSISTANT
SECRETARY: I will now invite CTV
Limited.
‑‑‑ Pause
4058 ASSISTANT
SECRETARY: Please reintroduce yourself
for the record. You have
10 minutes.
REPLY / RÉPLIQUE
4059 MR. GORDON: Thank you.
4060 For the record, my
name is Chris Gordon. I am joined by my
colleagues today Jim Blundell, David Jones and Lenore Gibson.
4061 To start, we would
like to take this opportunity to thank the many intervenors that took the time
to write to the Commission on our behalf, including overwhelming support from
individuals, community organizations, advertisers and artists.
4062 In particular we
would like to thank Steve Malison of Fanshawe, as well as Jon Nolan and Bob
Toft of the Don Wright Faculty of Music at UWO.
These individuals spoke to the music programs that our CCD funding will
support and how their students will gain knowledge and hands‑on
experience to support, train, develop and promote Canadian artists.
4063 Before we turn to
the key reasons why our application for The CURVE should be approved, I would
like to clarify two issues that were raised during our appearance on Monday,
that is our airplay commitment toward emerging Canadian artists and the
eligibility of certain CCD initiatives.
4064 First, our definition
of emerging Canadian artists.
4065 While it was
intended that our proposed definition be identical to the CAB's, their
definition evolved after we filed our London application. We confirm that we are prepared to commit to
playing 25 per cent emerging Canadian artists using the CAB's definition.
4066 Second, our CCD
initiatives.
4067 In the 2006
Commercial Radio Policy the Commission expanded its CCD policy to include a
broader list of eligible initiatives.
The policy now provides that contributions should be dedicated to the
initiatives that will provide high‑quality audio content for
broadcast. All CCD initiatives must be
allocated to support promotion, training and development of Canadian musical
and spoken word talent.
4068 The three
initiatives that were discussed on Monday are our proposed funding to UWO, H.B.
Beal and Fanshawe College. Based on the
Commission's criteria, these initiatives we feel are eligible for funding.
4069 With respect to
the Don Wright Faculty of Music, we will provide scholarships to students
enrolled in the popular music studies.
4070 In the case of
H.B. Beal, we are providing funds through MusiCan for them to purchase musical
instruments.
4071 Finally, with
respect to Fanshawe, we will help Fanshawe's Music Industry Arts Program to
upgrade their studio equipment. However,
should the Commission find that our proposed funding to Fanshawe be an
ineligible CCD initiative, we are fully prepared to commit our proposed funding
equitably to the other initiatives that we have identified in our application.
4072 We look forward to
having the opportunity to build another successful example of local radio doing
what it does best, proudly supporting the community it serves. We know The CURVE will be an exciting
addition to the London radio scene.
4073 Thank you for the
opportunity to appear before you, and thank you to Commission staff who work so
hard before, during and after these proceedings.
4074 Thank you.
4075 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr.
Gordon.
4076 We don't have any
questions. Thank you.
4077 MR. GORDON: Thank you.
4078 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Madam Secretary...?
4079 ASSISTANT
SECRETARY: Forest City Radio Inc.,
please come forward.
‑‑‑ Pause
REPLY / RÉPLIQUE
4080 MR. KIRK: Good morning.
4081 I am Doug Kirk, for
the record. I am Chairman and CEO of
Forest City Radio and I just want to provide our reply to interventions and
some concluding comments on our application for Boomer 98.1.
4082 I want to make
three points.
4083 I have just been
coached by Mr. Kassay to move the microphone away so I don't keep popping
it.
4084 First of all,
regarding research, I want to clarify a point raised by Blackburn
yesterday. I think they were clarifying
the point as well.
4085 As stated in the
Hendershot research, the entire 18 to 64‑year‑old respondent
group Triple‑A was the most preferred format style at 31.7 per cent,
but it was closely followed by pop oldies at 29.7 per cent.
4086 But when we look
further in the report it's clear that pop oldies is the preferred music style
for the 35 to 64‑year‑old demographic, which was the main
demographic for Boomer 98.1.
4087 We have added a
chart in the handout to capsulize that information. I think it shows clearly the high acceptance
of the pop oldies in particularly the 45 to 54 and 55 to 64‑year‑old
demos.
4088 That clarifies the
point on research.
4089 Regarding
technical considerations, there has been considerable questioning of applicants
who have presented subsequent to our appearance on Monday and statements have
been made about frequencies in London.
We want to provide some additional comments to the Commission on the
technical capacity of the market.
4090 There are
basically two aspects to the question.
4091 First is the
official position, and that's what you need to do with Industry Canada to
receive a technical approval of your technical brief that you filed.
4092 Second, a second
aspect is the possibilities for the development of additional frequencies in
London.
4093 In dealing with
the first point, all the commercial applicants have gravitated towards
98.1 from either a downtown or the Television Ontario Tower site. Industry Canada has approved those technical
proposals.
4094 London has what
the Industry Canada people and the technical consultants call a Channel 6
problem. Channel 6, because of its
proximity to the FM band ‑‑ it lives right below the FM band
from 82 to 86 MHz ‑‑ it precludes the use of FM
frequencies below 92 MHz unless you have the approval of the
Channel 6 operator in the market.
4095 In this case Global
operates Channel 6 from Paris, Ontario and serves this market with that
frequency. So their initial position on
the technical aspects for using other frequencies below 92 was no. That's why several applicants have had to
amend and end up on 98.1.
4096 However, Global
has recently been cooperative in similar situations. For example, in Guelph Global has indicated
acceptance. You will hear more about
this in the Guelph discussions which follow.
They have been agreeable to use a frequency below 92 in Erin, Ontario to
allow spectrum utilization and solve an issue of frequencies in the Guelph
market.
4097 Global has also
allowed the CBC to use a sub‑92 frequency, 88.1 as a matter of fact, to
serve the CBC's new facility in Vancouver.
They have a Channel 6 station in Victoria that has precedence in
Vancouver.
4098 So there are two
examples where Global has been amenable to working with
FM broadcasters.
4099 We have spoken to
our technical consultant for Global and understand that Global TV is open to discussions. They haven't made any commitments, but they
are open to discussions relating to the use of FM frequencies below 92 MHz in
London, as long as utilization of those frequencies does not impair the
coverage of Global TV Channel 6 in the London market.
4100 Successful
negotiation of these agreements could result in the creation of at least three
usable channels that we know of below 92.
The best one is the 91.1 MHz frequency that was originally applied for
by some of the applicants, and there are two other channels that we know of in
the 89 MHz area.
4101 In addition, there
are a couple of frequencies ‑‑ possibly 94.1 and 107.9 ‑‑
which might be used in London. Our
technical consultant advises that these frequencies are limited in coverage,
but with finessing their patterns, antenna systems or antenna transmitter
placements, they could possibly provide usable coverage.
4102 I would cite Mr.
Veroba's comments just recently regarding some usable adjacent frequencies.
4103 This is all to
say ‑‑ and the conclusion I want to leave you with ‑‑
that though there is only one official frequency that has been approved in the
technical briefs you have seen for the commercial applications this week, there
are several reasonably probable possibilities which could be used to develop
new FM channels in the London area.
4104 My third point
regards the definition of an independent operator.
4105 Forest City wishes
to comment on what defines an independent operator. We have heard several applicants in Phase I
refer to themselves as independent operators.
4106 In our view, the
addition of a new, independent operator contributes to the Commission's goals
of promoting diversity of ownership and diversity of editorial voices in the
market.
4107 How do you get
there? Who is independent?
4108 To be independent,
we think, you have to be an operator which has no broadcasting or media
activities existing in the market. This
would include radio, television, community television stations, market‑originated
publications, or other media.
4109 To us, independent
means no other broadcast or related media interests in the market.
4110 In closing, Forest
City wishes to thank the scores of supporting intervenors from the London
community who have understood and endorsed our vision to provide a new,
independent, viable radio service for London.
4111 We particularly
wish to thank and acknowledge Jim Scott and David Firth from the Kiwanis
Festival of London, who appeared here yesterday before you, and Rob Gloor from
Orchestra London for showing excellent and unwavering support for our
application.
4112 We look forward to
your deliberations, and feel very confident that we can put Boomer 98.1 on the
air in London successfully.
4113 I want to thank
you personally, Chairman Arpin, Commissioners, and Commission staff, for
hearing us out and attending to our application. Thank you very much.
4114 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr.
Kirk.
4115 Madam Secretary.
4116 THE
SECRETARY: Finally, I would invite Sound
of Faith Broadcasting to come forward.
4117 I would ask you,
please, to reintroduce yourself for the record.
You will have 10 minutes.
REPLY / RÉPLIQUE
4118 MR.
MacDONALD: Good morning, Mr. Chair and
members of the Commission. It is a
pleasure to be here before you again.
4119 I am Dave
MacDonald, and I am the Coordinator of Applications for Sound of Faith, and
also the General Manager of our station in Kitchener.
4120 To my right is Dr.
Robert Reid, Chair of our Board.
4121 To my left is Dale
Elliott, General Manager of our existing station in London, Grace FM.
4122 If I could, I
would like to address a couple of points that have been brought up in this part
of the discussion.
4123 First of all, the
Blackburn people, Ron Dann, indicated that he had approached us with this plan
so that we could remain on 105.9. While
we are very grateful to Mr. Dann and his associates for their offer of
assistance, we would still prefer that we would get 99.9, since it would give
us wider coverage than trying to expand on 105.9 would, partly due to the fact
that we have a protected station in Alymer for which we would have to be
putting up directional antennas and that sort of thing.
4124 So, while we
appreciate their offer, we certainly would still prefer to see our application
approved as it stands.
4125 I would also like,
very briefly, to respond to an accusation that Mr. Hunt made that I was
questioning Mr. Grieve's integrity by saying that he would have appeared for
us.
4126 I have known Mr.
Grieve since he was a teenager, appearing as part of the Southern Gospel
Quartet. I have introduced him at many
different concerts. He is a good friend,
a close friend, and is a very strong supporter of what we do at Sound of Faith. I, in no way, intended to question his
integrity. I agree that he, indeed, did
present an excellent presentation, and it certainly would have been beneficial
to any Christian broadcaster to hear what he had to say. My comment about him appearing for us only
came out because, when I walked in the room and he saw me, he was surprised to
see me here and wanted to know why I was here.
When I told him that we had an application, he said, "Oh, I wish I
had known about that."
4127 That is where that
came from. I wasn't trying to indicate
that he shouldn't be with United Christian Broadcasters, but simply that he
would also be very much in support of what we have been doing, and are trying
to do in all three of our communities.
4128 I have also been
asked to read into the record our commitment regarding balanced programming in
London.
4129 We would like to
officially commit that we would do six hours of balanced programming per
week. We already do, I think, almost
that much. We have our Jewish program on
the air. We have a man‑in‑the‑street
interview program that brings to all people in the community the opportunity to
comment on various issues. We have
programs on health and wellness. We
already have several faith groups represented, church groups, of many different
denominations, including Baptist and Pentecostal, which are about as opposite
as you can get in their outlook. We are
always looking for ways to bring new people on the air.
4130 So we would
definitely be prepared at this time to commit to a 6-hour per week balance in
our programming.
4131 I would like to
turn the microphone over now to Dale Elliott, who did some research ‑‑
and I was in the room with him while he was doing part of it ‑‑
on the interventions that came in through the internet and through other
means. He made some interesting
discoveries.
4132 Dale, if you would
like to take it over...
4133 MR. ELLIOTT: Thank you, Dave.
4134 Mr. Chairman and
members of the Commission, Sound Faith Broadcasting would like to briefly talk
about some of the interesting discoveries that we made while going through the
interventions that were filed with regard to UCB's application, as well as our
own.
4135 First, we went
through all of the support letters that UCB received, and we discovered that a
large number of them came from the Belleville and Chatham areas. We are puzzled as to why these people would
support an application for London, since they would not be able to receive the
signal.
4136 There were also a
large number of form letters in the UCB file, and since there is no address on
them it is not possible to determine where they came from, but one line in the
letter made us wonder who they were aimed at.
It states:
"Currently I can only receive
American Christian stations, and have heard of Christian artists who have been
leaving Canada to work in America, because not many stations in Canada will
play their music." (As read)
4137 Surely no one in
the London area who is aware of the existence of Grace FM would sign something
like this.
4138 In addition, we
know of no American Christian station that is available in London.
4139 So we think that
the people who signed this letter had no knowledge of the London market at all.
4140 We also did some
calculating, and results came forth that were very interesting, as well, to say
the least. There were 92 letters in
support of the application that we had made, and, as far as we could gather,
approximately 200 on file supporting UCB's application.
4141 In looking at each
one individually, we found that roughly half of these were from out of town, as
we referred to earlier. That would leave
about 100 letters from this market area, and, of those, only 35 to 40 of them
were the misleading form letters, leaving roughly 65 local letters that we
thought actually were supporting the application by UCB.
4142 However, as we
read through them, we were surprised to find that a number of them, roughly 25
or so, talked about the difficulty in receiving the station and were asking the
CRTC to give it more power; therefore, not referring to UCB at all.
4143 "How could
this happen?" is our question. We
think that when people went to the CRTC website to intervene on our behalf,
they were somewhat confused and saw "United Christian Broadcasters",
and clicked on that, thinking that it was us, in fact.
4144 We estimate that
UCB support letters are actually around the 40 number, as opposed to 200, or
350, as was referred to earlier, compared to the 92 for Sound of Faith.
4145 If you move those
25 letters that actually refer to us in their intervention from their file to
ours, we would end up with about 117 support letters, which is nearly three
times the amount that they actually were receiving.
4146 I would note, as
well, that we appreciate Mr. James Hunt's supportive letter on our behalf.
4147 Just as a side
note, I wonder if we could add all of their supportive letters to ours.
4148 We admit that this
is not a scientific survey, but we did have fun looking at all the letters, and
it appears that we have strong support from the support base of London. We know that from our day‑to‑day
operations with many of the ministries and churches in the London area.
4149 In closing, I
would like to thank the CRTC staff for their help over the past few days. They have been very helpful. This is the first time that I have appeared
at a CRTC hearing, and the staff made it a very positive experience for me, as
well as my colleagues.
4150 I would like to
thank the Commissioners, as well. They
were always ready to answer our questions, and they made sure that we
understood the rules.
4151 Thank you, also,
to you, Chairman, for giving us this opportunity.
4152 We would like to
thank, also, each person who intervened on our behalf, as well as those who
appeared here for us.
4153 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
4154 Would you like to
add something?
4155 DR. REID: I just want to say thank you. I found the Commissioners and their support
staff extremely helpful. I am very
impressed. Thank you.
4156 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
4157 Staff made me
aware of the mix‑up in the files, and I know that they are reviewing all
of the letters that were received for Sound of Faith, as well as for UCB. We will, surely, come up with the right files
at some point in time.
4158 MR. ELLIOTT: May I just say that we realize it is not
completely based on the competition ‑‑ who receives more
letters ‑‑ but we did think it was worthy to note that there
was a discrepancy.
4159 THE
CHAIRPERSON: No, and I think it was very
appropriate to draw our attention to it, and our staff is already taking the
time to re‑work the filing.
4160 Commissioner
Menzies would like to ask you a question.
4161 COMMISSIONER
MENZIES: I have a question about the
offer from Blackburn. I didn't get a
chance to ask them.
4162 Is it your
understanding that their offer stands dependent on the outcome of this hearing,
or independent of the outcome of this hearing?
4163 It is their offer,
but I didn't have a chance to ask them, so I wanted to ask you what was your
understanding.
4164 MR.
MacDONALD: My understanding was, I
think, that it would be dependent ‑‑
4165 Of course, if we
were approved, that would change the landscape and they wouldn't really need to
make the offer.
4166 I think it was
dependent on the outcome of this hearing.
4167 If we were to be
turned down, they would be able to do this for us. That was my understanding, but it really
wasn't put down in terms that were that clear.
4168 I think the intent
was that they would like to be able to perhaps expand their Sarnia operation in
the future, and if we were to get 99.9, that might restrict their possible
expansion plans.
4169 I think that's
where they are coming from, but I don't know that for sure, they didn't say
that.
4170 From our point of
view, 99.9 is a much better frequency than expanding on 105.9 would be,
because, as we have already pointed out, we have problems from Detroit already,
and from the Alymer station.
4171 So, while we
appreciate the offer, I think that 99.9 is still a better solution. However, I was very interested to hear what
Mr. Kirk had to say about the frequencies down lower on the band that Global
may be willing to work with. If there
are, indeed, two or three frequencies down there, we would be very interested
in that, too, should that become available in the future.
4172 COMMISSIONER
MENZIES: The longer a hearing goes on,
the more frequencies become available.
--- Laughter / Rires
4173 MR.
MacDONALD: That's true.
4174 COMMISSIONER
MENZIES: I would just like to point out,
too, that we do not think it was divine intervention that caused the fire alarm
that gave us more time to gather our thoughts.
--- Laughter / Rires
4175 COMMISSIONER
MENZIES: Thank you.
4176 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Gentlemen, thank you very
much.
4177 This completes
Phase IV of the London Public Hearing.
We will take a five-minute recess and start with the first application
for the Guelph market.
--- Upon recessing at 1130 /
Suspension à 1130
--- Upon resuming at 1135 / Reprise
à 1135
4178 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Order, please. We will begin now Phase I of the Guelph
portion of this Public Hearing.
4179 Madam Secretary.
4180 THE
SECRETARY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
4181 For planning
purposes, we would like to inform you that the Commission intends to hear, at
least, Phases III and IV tomorrow.
4182 We will now
proceed with Item 10, which is an application by Frank Torres, on behalf of a
corporation to be incorporated, for a licence to operate an English‑language
FM commercial radio programming undertaking in Guelph.
4183 The new station
would operate on Frequency 101.5, Channel 268A, with an average effective radiated
power of 326 watts, maximum effective radiated power of 1,550 watts, with an
effective height of antenna above average terrain of 48.8 metres.
4184 Appearing for the
Applicant is Ed Torres.
4185 Please introduce
your colleagues. You will then have 20
minutes to make your presentation.
PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
4186 MR. E.
TORRES: Thank you, and good morning.
4187 Mr. Chair, members
of the Commission, and Commission staff, my name is Ed Torres. I am the President and Co‑Founder of
Skywords Radio, and Chairman of CIDG‑FM.
4188 Thank you for
hearing our application for a new blues format FM radio licence.
4189 Seated to my right
is my brother Frank Torres. Frank is the
Chief Operations Officer at Skywords.
4190 Together, we
founded Skywords in 1991, and today it is a national radio company, with
offices in several Canadian major markets, including Ottawa, Halifax, Edmonton,
and our head office in Markham.
4191 To my left is
Robyn Metcalfe. Robyn is the
Vice-President of Programming at Skywords.
She worked in the Guelph market for Corus stations CJOY and CIMJ in the
early 2000's.
4192 Robyn is also part
owner in this application.
4193 On Frank's right
is London resident Greg Simpson. Greg
has extensive radio experience in southwestern Ontario. He served as Music Director for CJOE, and for
14 years was Music Director at CFPL.
During this time he was twice named Music Director of the Year by the
Canadian Music Industry Awards.
4194 If our station is
licensed, Greg will serve as Operations Manager of DAWG FM Guelph.
4195 Greg is also the
Chairman of the Great Lakes Blues Society.
4196 In the second row,
seated directly behind me, is Ron Ford.
Ron is a chartered accountant and the Chief Financial Officer for
Skywords.
4197 To the left of Ron
is Aubrey Clarke, Director of Business Development at Skywords, and former
National Sales Manager.
4198 In the second row,
to your far left, is Yves Trottier. Yves
is the former Operations Director at Couleur fm in Gatineau, and has held
various PD positions prior to joining Skywords as the General Manager of Quebec
Operations.
4199 Finally, beside
Yves is Tod Bernard, the General Manager of Eastern Canada Operations for
Skywords, and part owner in this application.
4200 MS METCALFE: On August 26th, the Commission granted this
group its first broadcast licence. Radio
Station CIDG-FM will broadcast from the nation's capital, and will be the first
all-blues format commercial radio station in North America.
4201 The next stop in
our plan to roll out the blues across Canada is here in Guelph.
4202 Our presentation
today will illustrate that Guelph can sustain an additional entrant into the
market. We will increase plurality and
provide the only independent news voice in Guelph, a counterpoint to the only
voice in the market, that of Corus.
4203 We provide a
missing, highly desired, extensively researched radio option to listeners in
the region. Our format will help break
and launch new Canadian blues artists through commercial airplay of their music
on FM airwaves.
4204 We have received
over 1,700 letters of support for our blues radio station applications. There are over 567 supporters for this
application alone, including Chuck Jackson, Don Walsh, Downchild Blues Band,
Grand River Blues Society, Great Lakes Blues Society, Liz Sandals, MPP Guelph,
Karen Farbridge, Mayor of Guelph, and Peter Cartwright, City of Guelph Economic
Development, whose letter I quote:
"Guelph City Council has
identified, as one of its priorities, the redevelopment of our downtown. This program is being led through my
department, and one of the main action items relates to the creation of
supporting cultural opportunities. It is
my opinion that Skyword's proposal would very much complement our objectives."
4205 We have
commissioned extensive formal research by Sensus Research, an independent,
third party research firm, into the viability of our proposed format in 10
markets across Canada, including Guelph.
4206 To supplement our
formal research, we created an online survey at "bluesincanada.com",
a website that we own, that has generated hundreds of responses.
4207 Overwhelmingly, we
found in our research that blues is the first music choice for 30 to 60 percent
of people, and it is almost universally accepted as a second choice.
4208 Guelph has a
vibrant blues scene, championed by the Great Lakes and Grand River Blues
societies, and is exhibited at the many area blues fests, which attract
thousands of festival‑goers to the region every year.
4209 Guelph, also, is a
highly desirable market for national advertisers. The market constantly shows up on RFPs from
major agencies. However, with only two
options for these advertisers in the market, agencies and local advertisers are
forced to purchase out‑of‑market stations to reach this population.
4210 MR. BERNARD: The City of Guelph ranked eighth in rate of
population growth of major Canadian urban centres in the 2006 census. Guelph's proximity to the Greater Toronto
Area, its strong manufacturing employment base, and employment diversification,
along with its strong population growth, show that Guelph is indeed an
economically viable southern Ontario market.
4211 Recent findings
from the Pembina Institute confirmed Guelph's economic viability in its August
2007 report, titled "The Ontario Community Sustainability
Report." Guelph ranked fifth for
sustainability in communities across Ontario.
4212 The report looked
at 33 indicators of sustainability, across three categories, including
"Smart Growth", "Livability" and "Economic
Vitality".
4213 Guelph's strong
performance in this study shows that the Guelph region boasts a strong and
vibrant economy that is diversified over many sectors.
4214 Recent expansions
in Guelph's manufacturing sector are also indicators of Guelph's sustainability
and ability to compete in these challenging times.
4215 In March of `07,
Denso Manufacturing Canada announced a $64 million U.S. expansion project. Denso is Toyota's leading parts supplier, but
also manufactures parts for other major car makers, including Honda, Fiat,
General Motors and Ford.
4216 This expansion
project will see the addition of 300 new employees by 2010, and increase the
size of the company's facilities by nearly 300 percent.
4217 Similarly,
Canadian automobile parts manufacturer Linamar announced in May of `06 a five‑year
expansion project, with a value of $1.1 billion, in conjunction with the
provincial government, through its Ontario Automotive Investment Strategy Fund.
4218 Linamar, which
produces auto parts for the North American and European markets, is expecting
the creation of an additional 3,000 jobs with this expansion.
4219 Despite Guelph's
high percentage of workforce in the manufacturing sector, the region shows
diversification into other work areas, as well ‑‑ 5.7 percent
of Guelph's workforce lies in the classification of "Professional,
Scientific and Technical Services", 9.8 percent in the retail trade, 8.7
percent in health care and social assistance, and 11.3 percent in educational
services.
4220 Clearly, the
Guelph region shows diversification of workforce, along with sustained strength
in its major employment sector of manufacturing.
4221 These contributing
factors add to Guelph's overall economic viability, and are confirmed in the
area's Top 5 ranking in the recent sustainability report for communities across
Ontario.
4222 MR. FORD: In light of the fact that the Skywords group
has made multiple radio licence applications as part of our national radio
network vision and strategy, we would like to outline our financial strength
and capacity.
4223 In preparation of
our business plan to embark on this national radio network strategy, and prior
to making these applications, we reached an agreement with Mr. Joe Dwek and his
company to finance the building and start‑up operations of a number of
radio stations.
4224 Mr. Dwek, a
chartered accountant, whose CA firm performs the annual year end review of
Skywords Traffic, is extremely confident of the business acumen of the Skywords
group, as shown by his acceptance of the financing arrangement.
4225 Upon the granting
of the Ottawa‑Gatineau licence, we began discussions with our corporate
commercial bankers to explore the optimal use of our internal resources to fund
the new radio station.
4226 Final negotiations
are pending, which would enable us to finance the Ottawa‑Gatineau
operations without needing to access the third party funds provided by Mr. Dwek
and his company.
4227 This further
demonstrates our financial strength.
4228 MR. SIMPSON: I moved to southwestern Ontario 40 years ago
this past summer to further my chosen career in broadcasting and music, and,
after all that time, consider the area from Toronto to Windsor my stomping
grounds.
4229 One of the first
things I discovered upon arriving was the diversity of music available not only
in my chosen city of London, but all through the region. In relatively short order, I expanded my pop
and rock base to include bluegrass, folk, jazz, classical and, of course, the
blues.
4230 Another thing I
noticed is that the City of Guelph, which I knew initially as the home of two
institutions that friends attended ‑‑ only one was a
university ‑‑ was way ahead of the curve in its support of
music outside the mainstream.
4231 Over the years I
found myself in that city often to attend festivals of various kinds, and
continue to make the journey up the 401 even today. Such longstanding gatherings as The Hillside
Festival and other events have always made the trip worthwhile, and during that
time I had the pleasure of getting to know many of the city's residents, music
lovers all.
4232 It seems that the
music loved the most by those who live in and around Guelph is music that
represents the roots of all popular music.
The blues, among the root forms, is the most popular of all, and yet
mainstream radio continues to offer slight variations on the same two or three
tried‑and‑true formats, all representing pop and firmly established
rock.
4233 I don't doubt for
an instant that their research tells the operators of those radio stations that
they are doing the right thing to achieve maximum numbers, and, therefore, high
sales figures, but I have always felt that when research is being done, perhaps
they have been asking the wrong questions.
4234 It is not a
coincidence that the CBC continues to experience extremely high numbers of
listeners in the most cosmopolitan of all our cities, Toronto. People are looking for an alternative to
cookie‑cutter radio, and DAWG FM represents the best opportunity for an
alternative that one could imagine.
4235 The blues is not
niche music, it is the basis of all forms, save a few, currently offered by
both pop and rock radio, and holds a pretty strong kinship with country music,
as well.
4236 Everybody relates
to the blues, and a community like Guelph, with its long history of accepting
and seeking that which is not the same as everywhere else, would welcome and
support the option of having something to listen to that speaks directly to
them.
4237 Having spent my
entire adult life in the music and broadcasting industries, I have found that
blues fans cross the demographic spectrum.
Young, middle-aged and older music fans are represented at virtually
every blues show that I have been involved with over the past 40 years.
4238 The same can be
said for life circumstances, with audiences ranging from casual labourers to
doctors and lawyers and politicians.
4239 At a typical show
in London, where I reside, these diverse age groups and economic strangers
share not just the room, but often the same tables, all in the name of the music
they have come to see.
4240 The same is true
of Guelph, which shares many of the same attributes of London, both in
diversity of population and economic balance demographically.
4241 When music can
bring people together the way the blues can ‑‑ and let there
be no doubt that it does ‑‑ it represents a choice that
doesn't immediately stamp the fan as being a hick, a square, a snob, or any
other appellation applied to fans of other forms of music.
4242 In general, blues
lovers are seen as music lovers, and the opportunity for them to have a station
of their own should be recognized and supported here as a nod to diversity on
the air, and a way to not exclude the most devoted fans of any kind of music.
4243 MS METCALFE: Having lived in Guelph, I know firsthand how
important the community and locality is to the residents of Guelph. Working at the radio station in Guelph gave
me an opportunity to partner with organizations like the Alzheimer's Society of
Guelph and the United Way. The people of
Guelph really like to give back to their own.
4244 Having that
knowledge of community and the city itself, I feel that DAWG FM will encompass
everything that is important to Guelph residents. Local news, sports and traffic will be a top
priority.
4245 DAWG FM will give
back by helping out the Guelph-Wellington Food Bank with food drives, and
helping drive business back downtown, with our street‑level studios.
4246 When I worked for
the Downtown Board of Guelph, the main action item on our agenda was to get the
people of Guelph back downtown and away from the big box stores, to enhance the
downtown experience.
4247 These are all
things that are important to the City of Guelph and its residents, and I know
what they are looking for in a radio station, as well.
4248 DAWG FM will be a
positive and enjoyable workplace.
Passion for radio and a team mentality are central to building a
community connection, and we will partner with the community to create a radio
station that is locally focused.
4249 We like to say
that we aren't the big "DAWG" on the block, but we have
attitude. Our radio station will have a
brand, and it will have a feel. The feel
is the blues.
4250 We have done some
advance work on our brand. We would like
to give you a glimpse into some of the image work we have done for our Ottawa
station. We like to call them
"DAWG" tags.
--- Video presentation /
Présentation video
4251 MS METCALFE: I am proud to highlight the fact that our
station will be a good corporate citizen, engaged and connected with our community,
and environmentally responsible. Yes,
the blues are green.
4252 We take pride in
proposing that DAWG FM will be carbon neutral, like our other station.
4253 DAWG FM promotions
will be different. Instead of a week in
Mexico on a beach, listeners will win a blues tour of Chicago, Memphis, or New
Orleans.
4254 Ratings promotions
will see listeners whisked away on a cruise; not just any cruise, it will be a
blues cruise ‑‑ bands on every level of the ship, playing into
the late hours.
4255 MR. TROTTIER: DAWG FM is not a specialty radio station, it
is a Category 2 that will have success with audience and shares, a blues
station with a popular and commercial sound.
4256 DAWG FM will not
only attract blues fans, it will also have mainstream appeal, without
infringing upon other formats.
4257 Blues music has
had a massive influence on a number of genres, and Guelph will be pleasantly
surprised at how much music they will recognize at 101.5 on the FM dial.
4258 DAWG FM will play
70 percent Cat 2 songs from the rhythm and blues and blues rock
categories. In Cat 2 we will play blues
rock songs from blues artists, like "Flip, Flop and Fly" by the
Downchild Blues Band, Colin James' "Into the Mystic", and "Look
at Little Sister" by Stevie Ray Vaughan.
4259 We will play pop
rock songs with a bluesy rhythm, like "Ain't No Sunshine" from Bill
Withers, "Come Running" from Van Morrison, or "You Can Leave
Your Hat On" by Joe Cocker.
4260 We will complete
the lineup with popular pop/rock songs like "Suzie Q" from CCR,
"American Woman" by the Guess Who, and "Fly Like an Eagle"
by the Steve Miller Band.
4261 DAWG FM will play,
as a Condition of Licence, a minimum of 20 percent of selections from Category
3 blues music, including classics like "Hootchie Kootchie Man",
"Let the Good Times Roll", or "Mustang Sally".
4262 Our goal is to
play 29 percent of blues music, the maximum that we can.
4263 For the benefit of
emerging Canadian artists like JW‑Jones, Amos Garrett and Garrett Mason,
40 percent of all selections will be Canadian content.
4264 MR. F.
TORRES: Market research into the Guelph
market was compiled by Sensus Research, and focused on providing an objective
and unbiased assessment of this prospected format.
4265 The research
points to a number of indicators to suggest that the DAWG format would be
warmly received in the Guelph market.
Four in ten Guelph residents would consider listening to a new
blues-oriented radio station. Forty‑one
percent of people surveyed answered that they would be likely to listen.
4266 Among this number
were 13 percent who stated that they would be very likely to listen to such a
station.
4267 Of the people who
would be likely to tune to a blues-oriented station, nearly five in ten
answered that, in doing so, they would likely increase the total amount of time
spent listening to radio, including 19 percent who would be very likely to do
so.
4268 This suggests that
overall listenership would be augmented, rather than cannibalized from existing
stations.
4269 Almost half of the
sample was unable to recall any local stations that played a fairly
recognizable list of blues artists. Of
those who could, 34 percent could identify just one. Yet many could name two or more stations that
played country, rock and Top 40.
4270 The research
further confirms that a key demographic for this station is between the ages of
35 to 54, with secondary demos being 55 to 64 and 18 to 24.
4271 News and
information is important to blues listeners.
Forty-six percent responded to the importance of news and information
programming on the station.
4272 MR. CLARKE: Our Canadian Content Development has been
carefully designed to provide funding and promotion to Canadian national talent
and to nurture the future of musical development in Guelph.
4273 Some of these initiatives
include: FACTOR will receive $15,000
annually, which will go to fund blues genre artists. This is a substantial investment in musicians
that will promote and help launch the careers and the music of emerging
Canadian artists.
4274 Canadian Music
Week will receive $15,000 annually to start a blues concert series and fund
Guelph area blues musicians to attend music industry conferences.
4275 The Grand River
Blues Society would receive $7,000 annually to continue their work of promoting
and fostering the blues in the Grand River region.
4276 The University of
Guelph School of Fine Arts and Music would receive $10,000 per year to support
their music programs.
4277 MR. E.
TORRES: We initiated this call because
we know this market. We know that it is served
by a single operator. We have the
experience of having worked in the market and for the market.
4278 We have seen
advertising dollars, destined for Guelph, instead go to stations in Toronto,
Brantford, Kitchener and other markets.
It is time to repatriate those dollars and those listeners who also tune
out of market.
4279 The approval of
this application will help add competitive balance to the Canadian broadcast
system. While all of the applicants are
from mainstream formats at this hearing, our application is the only one that
comes from a standalone, single, FM operator.
All of the other applicants have multiple stations, where they can
realize economies of scale and synergies from similar operations.
4280 The approval of
this application will allow DAWG FM that same economy of scale. The approval of this application will accrue
substantial benefits to the public and the 41 percent of Guelph residents who
want to hear this music.
4281 We always like to
say that we are the public's best friend, as you know.
4282 We will provide a
format that is not currently available on conventional over-the-air radio. It will repatriate listeners that tune to out‑of‑market
stations, or listen to satellite or internet feeds for their desired blues
program.
4283 It will benefit
the Canadian blues industry, artists, promoters, venues and the like.
4284 Blues have
arrived. Marginalized and restricted by
mainstream media, the internet and satellite radio have brought it back to the
forefront. The CRTC recognized this in
August of 2008, granting the world's first commercial blues format at
CIDG. This licence allowed us to be
first to market with this format. It is
our hope that you will license a second DAWG FM to maximize the efficiencies
that other multiple licence holders benefit from, and to keep CIDG‑FM
company.
4285 We will leave you
with a metaphor, not a "DAWG" one, a hockey one, as we enter another
season of hockey.
4286 Skywords is the
backstop of our team, the solid, dependable, veteran goalie that we can rely
on. CIDG, our high-scoring centreman,
will provide the offence. We need, then,
a couple of wingers and some "D" to play in this league.
4287 Thank you. We will now take questions.
4288 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
4289 I would ask Commissioner
Menzies to ask the first round of questions.
4290 COMMISSIONER
MENZIES: Good morning, and thank you.
4291 Parts of this will
seem a little bit like "Groundhog Day", but I am going to try to move
through those questions and get into some other areas.
4292 How much of your
local news programming will be local?
4293 MS METCALFE: We will have 60 percent local, 20 percent
regional/national, and 20 percent international.
4294 COMMISSIONER
MENZIES: Thank you.
4295 In your listing of
expenses, it is not clear that the over and above is included in the CCD.
4296 Can you clarify
that for us?
4297 MR. E.
TORRES: I believe that the CCD
chart ‑‑ and I will flip to it.
4298 The total is the
$50,000 annually, for a seven-year total of $350,000.
4299 The basic CCD is
outlined in a schedule. The basic CCD
remains at $1,000 until Year 7.
4300 The over and above
CCD, in that case, is $49,000 through to Year 6, and in Year 7 the over and
above is slightly lower, at $48,015.
4301 The total CCD
commitment is $50,000 a year.
4302 COMMISSIONER
MENZIES: So that is all included in your
listing of expenses. Thank you.
4303 In the 13.8 hours
of spoken word, does that include or exclude your plans for snowmobile reports
and farm and agribusiness reports?
4304 MR. E. TORRES: I believe that we refined the spoken word
chart.
4305 Yves...?
4306 MR. TROTTIER: We don't have the snowmobile reports on that.
4307 It's
everything. It's news, sports, weather,
station promos ‑‑ some station promos could be included ‑‑
traffic, "DAWG Days", "Community Cruiser", entertainment,
and the business report.
4308 COMMISSIONER
MENZIES: Okay. So the snowmobile report would be in addition
to that?
4309 MR. TROTTIER: Yes.
4310 MR. E.
TORRES: The snowmobile report will be a
seasonal report. It will only happen in
the winter, and this is really annual.
4311 COMMISSIONER
MENZIES: It could last for a few weeks
or a few months.
4312 MR. E.
TORRES: Correct.
4313 COMMISSIONER
MENZIES: Thanks.
4314 The DAWG Music
Camp, can you give us a bit more information on that, so that we know how it
fits the eligibility requirements?
4315 MR. E.
TORRES: Sure. The DAWG Music Camp is an initiative that we
have started.
4316 We partner with
the Grand River Blues Society, in this case.
Through the Grand River Blues Society, we find students that are
eligible. Again, they administer the
program. These would be students who are
interested in music, and blues music.
4317 So it's a blues
education program, and what we do is, we fund the artists that teach, and the
instruments that are required, but it is set up and administered through the
Grand River Blues Society.
4318 COMMISSIONER
MENZIES: So it is all third party, and
they create the budget for it.
4319 MR. E.
TORRES: Yes, and there are two parts to
the CCD that involve the Grand River Blues Society. The first part is a commitment of dollars to
the Grand River Blues Society, which will mainly be used for them to promote
and produce local music series that are blues genre specific.
4320 The DAWG FM Music Camp
is administered by Grand River, but the money will flow directly to the
artists, and directly to purchase equipment ‑‑ musical
instruments.
4321 COMMISSIONER
MENZIES: Is that separate from or
included in your other contributions to the Grand River Blues Society?
4322 MR. E.
TORRES: It's separate.
4323 COMMISSIONER
MENZIES: Just segue through that and do
the same thing with the Grand River Blues Society.
4324 MR. E.
TORRES: Again, there are two components
to the CCD. The first is that the
cheques would be made out to the Grand River Blues Society, and that is the CCD
commitment of $7,000 annually. That is
for them to produce shows, to bring artists to live‑music venues.
4325 Then, there is the
DAWG FM Music Camp, which is $3,000 annually.
That is money that, although it is administered by ‑‑
4326 The students are
selected by and the program is administered by the Grand River Blues Society,
but those payments don't go to the Grand River Blues Society, the payments go
directly to the artists involved in the instruction.
4327 COMMISSIONER
MENZIES: And then they pay the Grand
River Blues Society for the instruction?
4328 MR. E.
TORRES: No. The Grand River Blues Society ‑‑
much like Greg's program at the Great Lakes Blues Society, they try to not pass
on the costs to the school.
4329 In effect, what we
are doing is, we are sponsoring the artist, which normally the Grand River
Blues Society would pay for to come in and provide the instruction.
4330 COMMISSIONER
MENZIES: Okay. Thank you.
4331 And the same for
the University of Guelph.
4332 MR. E.
TORRES: The University of Guelph
program, again, is directly related to the purchasing of instruments for the
University of Guelph.
4333 Again, that is
totally administered by them.
4334 COMMISSIONER
MENZIES: Okay. Thank you.
4335 How much of the
programming in Guelph would be local live‑to‑air?
4336 MR. E.
TORRES: As is the case with all of our
radio stations, except for the occasional six hours of syndicated programming
that we want to keep a window open for, 120 hours would be live‑to‑air.
4337 So 24/7 staffing
live‑to‑air.
4338 COMMISSIONER
MENZIES: And that would all be local
from the Guelph station, it wouldn't be ‑‑
4339 MR. E.
TORRES: Correct, yes.
4340 COMMISSIONER
MENZIES: Where will you get your
syndicated programming from?
4341 MR. E.
TORRES: Our idea is, again, to look at
products that are out there. I think
there is one that Dan Aykroyd hosts that might be a fit.
4342 Then, it is
certainly our intention, as we ramp up operations in Ottawa, to create some
programming that we could syndicate.
That might be something ‑‑
4343 Essentially, it
will be up to the General Manager of the Guelph operation, or the Operations
Manager and the Program Director there to make those final decisions.
4344 MR. SIMPSON: I anticipate that if the DAWG network
eventually comes into play, Ottawa will be producing for the rest of the
network, Guelph will be producing for the rest of the network, London will be
producing for the rest of the network, and then, through this method, regional
acts from all of the locations where there are DAWG FM stations will be heard
across the country, in specialty programming that is created for the network.
4345 COMMISSIONER
MENZIES: How would you do that?
4346 If the grand vision
becomes reality at some point and you have a network ‑‑ a
blues network in that sense ‑‑ how do you keep regional? How do you make sure, if you are in the
maritimes, that maritimes blues artists are getting exposure across the
country, and Vancouver ‑‑ West Coast artists are getting
exposure across the network?
4347 MR. SIMPSON: I don't know if I am the one to answer that
question or it should be Yves, but the dedication to all Canadian blues would
exist at any DAWG FM station.
4348 The networks that
we have built up ‑‑ for example, in the network that I have
built up in my years in the industry, I know the people who are recording blues
artists all across the country. I deal
with them a lot in my job at Canadian Music Week.
4349 The network is
solid, at least from my position. I am
sure that Yves has an equally solid network.
4350 MR. E.
TORRES: What we have seen ‑‑
we have been researching this format for the better part of two years, and what
we have found in Canada is that we have a much tighter knit community than in
the United States.
4351 In the United
States you have your Chicago Blues, which is very different from your New
Orleans Blues, and ‑‑ you have probably heard this answer
before ‑‑ your West Coast Blues.
4352 In Canada, there
are fewer venues to play.
4353 Matt Andersen, who
is an East Coast act, played in Trenton six weeks ago, but because he was
touring, he played in Ottawa, he played in Cornwall, and he hit a couple of
spots in Montreal.
4354 So there is a lot
of movement in the genre. I am sure, if
you asked Chuck Jackson, he could tell you about the Yale Hotel and the Blues
on White.
4355 He mentioned,
actually, that he just played Edmonton, and he was sorry that we didn't get the
licence there. He says that it's a great
blues town.
4356 MR. F.
TORRES: I think that the nature of blues
music and blues performers ‑‑ I was talking to Jack DeKeyser,
and he does over 300 appearances a year, mostly in Canada.
4357 So these acts are
touring quite a bit, and if we are able to provide a base like, for instance,
our Ottawa‑Gatineau operation, where they know they can come and perform
live, it would be very easy for us to represent all of the regions across
Canada, because those acts are moving across Canada.
4358 COMMISSIONER
MENZIES: Right, which takes me into
another area ‑‑ and you have referred to it a couple of
times ‑‑ that the nature of the blues is a fundamental element
in all kinds of other music forms. Blues
can be a bit of a shape shifter in that sense.
4359 How do you
maintain your identity as a blues station?
4360 You have the 29
percent in terms of categories, but how do you maintain the identity as being
blues, and identify people as being specifically blues, when, as you have
described yourself, blues is The Rolling Stones, blues is Eric Clapton, blues
is Van Morrison, blues is ‑‑
4361 It is sort of
everywhere, so how do you take ‑‑
4362 MR. SIMPSON: I would suggest that you maintain the
identity by what you do not play, that the other radio stations play.
4363 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Okay.
4364 MR. SIMPSON: Yes, you will hear The Rolling Stones on
other stations. You will also hear
AC/DC, and you are not likely to hear them on DAWG FM.
4365 Yes, you will hear
blues‑influenced country on a country station, but you will not hear non‑blues‑influenced
country ‑‑
4366 MR. E.
TORRES: It is part of the brand. I mean, if we tell people that they are
listening to a blues station, they may come to it with a pre‑conceived
notion. That's why we have stayed away
from "Blues 102" as a handle.
4367 We are going to
let them listen to the music, and then, in the IDs, that's where we will
reinforce the brand, the fact that: Hey,
this is blues. You probably didn't
realize that you listen to the blues and you like the blues.
4368 We think that it
is going to be an education process, but we are committed to it.
4369 COMMISSIONER
MENZIES: Okay. Back to the application, in terms of
technical things, I think you said 29 percent in the presentation, and I had 30
percent written down that you were willing to take on as a COL for subcategory
34, "Jazz and Blues".
4370 MR. TROTTIER: As we said, we received a Condition of
Licence for Ottawa of 20 percent of Cat 3, subcategory 34 music.
4371 To have a Cat 2
radio licence, you have to play a minimum of 70 percent Cat 2 music. So we will play a minimum of 70 percent Cat 2
music, and our goal is to play 29 percent Cat 3 music.
4372 COMMISSIONER
MENZIES: Okay. What my question was really getting at was,
how will that be dispersed throughout the day?
4373 MR. TROTTIER: It will be the same 6 to 6, and throughout
the day it will be the same percentage.
4374 COMMISSIONER
MENZIES: So it would just flow evenly
throughout the day. So between 7 and 8
in the morning would be the same as between 2 and 3 in the morning?
4375 MR. TROTTIER: Yes, that's our goal.
4376 COMMISSIONER
MENZIES: Any interest in accepting that
as a COL, as well?
4377 MR. TROTTIER: Yes.
4378 COMMISSIONER
MENZIES: That would be okay?
4379 MR. TROTTIER: Yes.
4380 COMMISSIONER
MENZIES: Thank you.
4381 In terms of your
business plan, it seemed a little optimistic, given the nature of the
incumbents in Guelph, that you might get 35 percent of your Year 1 revenues by
picking Corus' pockets.
4382 I am open‑minded
on it, but I need to know how you came to that conclusion.
4383 MR. CLARKE: Actually, I took a look at the chart and that
was a typo error. It was supposed to be
35 percent of Year 3.
4384 The numbers were
calculated on Year 1, and accidentally ‑‑
4385 COMMISSIONER
MENZIES: I'm sorry, I didn't quite hear
you. Thirty-five percent of ‑‑
4386 MR. CLARKE: It was supposed to be Year 3 revenues.
4387 It was calculated
on Year 1, but it was supposed to be calculated on Year 3 revenues, that whole
chart. It was a typo error.
4388 COMMISSIONER
MENZIES: Okay. Thank you.
4389 Which
out-of-market stations do you think are most likely to lose listeners from
Guelph to you?
4390 MR. E.
TORRES: We think that we will likely
affect Q-107. We may affect The Hawk,
and we may affect CBC.
4391 But because our
format, again, is something that is not currently out there, and appeals to
that 35 to 54 demographic that largely is tuning out of radio, as we have heard
repeatedly through this proceeding ‑‑ and the research company
shows that we really will have negligible impact on market players, in this
format, in every market across Canada ‑‑ every market that we
have tested.
4392 I mean,
anecdotally, I think that we would take some rock listenership, but I don't
think it will ‑‑ I think it will have a negligible effect on
those stations.
4393 COMMISSIONER
MENZIES: There is no specific area that
you have done an analysis on that says you are most likely to get from ‑‑
4394 MR. E.
TORRES: I don't believe so.
4395 Aubrey, I don't
think we did a specific analysis of ‑‑
4396 MR. CLARKE: According to Sensus Research ‑‑
and I don't have the research here in my book, but from what I recall, the
research shows that people who like blues listen to a variety of different
formats, and from the formats they listen to, it shows that it would be evenly
distributed ‑‑ coming over to DAWG FM.
4397 We don't think
that we are going to cannibalize any one station, but we believe that we will
pull listeners and revenues from a number of stations.
4398 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: On your research, my read of it was that the
research ‑‑ the data that you presented, and collected, was
based on a poll of 200 people.
4399 What is the margin
of error on 200 people?
4400 MR. F.
TORRES: The margin of error is, plus or
minus, 9 percent, and the confidence of the data is 95 percent.
4401 Because we
performed a lot of these all across Canada, we had to debate what number would
be ‑‑ what survey group ‑‑ what sample group
would be adequate.
4402 We found that the
difference in margin of error from a 150 to a 200 sample to a 600 or 700 sample
is very minimal. It is only about 2 or
2.5 percent.
4403 We found that the
95 percent reliability factor is quite acceptable to us.
4404 COMMISSIONER
MENZIES: You still get 6.5 percent on a
600 or 700 sample?
4405 To me, just
looking at it, if it says that 13 percent of the people would be very likely to
listen to the blues, and you have a margin of error of, plus or minus, 9
percent, it could be as low as 4. It
could be as high as 22 on the upside.
4406 I guess all I am
asking is for you to affirm your confidence that that's the number you are
willing to invest in.
4407 MR. E.
TORRES: We don't have the research
representative here, but we asked them this question repeatedly in Vancouver,
as well, and, again, what you gain in the sample size is not really material to
the end result.
4408 I think also when
you are talking about surveys you have to look at the questions, you know, and
a lot of the surveys that we see at hearings they ask ‑‑ since
we are talking about surveys, they ask which formats are you more likely to
listen to? So they ask questions about
rock formats and AC formats. So they ask
a listener a sample of eight or nine ‑‑ they give them an
option of eight or nine existing formats that they can choose from and the
results always seem to be skewed.
4409 So we didn't ask
Would you listen to a blues‑oriented radio station, we asked questions
with respect to artists and sound and music tracks.
4410 COMMISSIONER
MENZIES: Okay. So what did you base your audience share
projections on?
4411 MR. E.
TORRES: Again, Aubrey has done most of
the leg work on this, but I think he will tell you that it's based on BBM data
on all the research.
4412 MR. CLARKE: Right.
4413 Another research
that we are forgetting about is the ground level guerrilla marketing that we
did by going into the market and going into the bars and serving the people
ourselves, as well as what we get online from bluesincanada.com. You know, the combination of all of that, along
with the survey, BBM data, CBC blues radio shares, a combination of that is
what we based our share on.
4414 MR. E.
TORRES: If I might just add on the
surveys, because we have done 10 of these surveys in numerous markets across
the country we get a very mean average.
We get a good idea of what the mean is.
So, you know, it's not that from sample to sample we are seeing huge
variations, so again that may add to your question of size of survey.
4415 But we also look
at our Blues in Canada survey has generated over 1,700 responses. You know, that gives us very valuable data as
to what our key demographic is and where they are located.
4416 COMMISSIONER
MENZIES: Okay, thanks.
4417 Do you have any
idea how many local advertising dollars are leaving the Guelph area and so what
the opportunity is for repatriation, that's advertisers in Guelph who are
advertising with stations outside the area?
4418 MR. E.
TORRES: Well, with out of market tuning
of 80 per cent, I mean with less respect to the local dollars I would
hesitate to guess that it might be as high as 60 per cent of the potential
ad budget is not getting spent.
4419 We see this. The reason why, as we mentioned in our
presentation, Guelph shows up on a lot of our national RFPs, right, so if we
can just talk about national for a second.
It's with the rate of population growth that it's experiencing, rate of
influx of the big box stores and larger retailers, it's a market that's in
demand.
4420 And,
unfortunately, there are only two options to reach Guelph and if you don't like
that rate, then you have to go you have to buy spill stations and you have to
buy the Toronto stations, you have to buy Brantford and Kitchener.
4421 Aubrey, I don't...
4422 MR. CLARKE: Yes.
Also, I mean on Skywords we sell a lot of advertising across the country
and many times when advertising agencies come to us we sell them out of market
stations in order to hit the residents in Guelph. So we know that there are a lot of dollars
that are being missed.
4423 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Okay.
4424 Have you taken a look at your business plan in light
of ‑‑ I mean this was filed some time ago, before the current
economic turmoil. Have you had a chance
to review it and does it still hold up?
And, if so, why?
4425 MR. E.
TORRES: The numbers in the financial
plan again are based on our experience in the market, the trends that we have
seen, the spot rate that we know that the market sells at.
4426 Again, we took a
conservative approach, so revenue figures from 648 to, at the upper echelon. When you compare it to the other applicants
in these proceedings, we are actually the most conservative in terms of our
projections.
4427 Now, with all of
our applications, yes. Will we have to
revise them downward because of current economic trends? I think that is probably prudent. There are some things that are going to ‑‑
you know, that the recent economic turmoil is going to affect and manufacturing
is one of them.
4428 Because the dollar
yesterday was at $.82 and we know that that has a direct proportional impact to
manufacturing. So we think the Ontario
economy will start to march in lockstep with that dollar as it comes down.
4429 So it's hard to
predict of course what the next 24 months, 12 months are going to bring, but we
think that these predictions, these projections, will hold up.
4430 COMMISSIONER
MENZIES: Well, the good news for
manufacturing is that the dollar is below $.80 today.
4431 MR. E.
TORRES: There you go.
4432 COMMISSIONER
MENZIES: The last thing I wanted to
touch on was, you talk about having an objective, a sort of key objective in
this of they speak about launching new Canadian blues artists.
4433 How would you
measure your success in that area? You
have a licence for Ottawa now for instance, I mean what ‑‑
having goals is always a good thing, but having measurable goals is an even
better thing. You do it with finances
and that sort of stuff.
4434 How would you
measure your success in launching new Canadian blues artists?
4435 MR. E.
TORRES: That's a good question and I
will maybe throw that one around the table as well.
4436 I think that we
haven't got a measurement tool or a yardstick yet, but I certainly ‑‑
part of what we do, we are going to very closely track our CCD. We are going to give you detailed accounting
on what that money does and where it goes and what kind of success we have had
with it.
4437 So in terms of
success, we have already had what I would deem some success. We were asked to judge an emerging blues
artist contest in Ottawa for the Ottawa Blues Society.
4438 So in terms of
success we think that ‑‑ the Ottawa Blues Society wasn't going
to hold that contest, they were kind of buoyed by the licence that was
granted. They decided at the last minute
to hold that contest, they asked us to judge it, so I think that we are already
having some success.
4439 But there will be
yardsticks and there will be things that we quantify to the CRTC in our annual
reporting.
4440 MR. F.
TORRES: I think also we have already
seen some intangibles that, you know, really boost the morale of this entire
process and this team.
4441 We were at the
Vancouver hearings and one of our intervenors was a blues performer who was a
great performer, had a very well produced a CD that he claimed couldn't get
airplay on any of the radio stations locally, and at those hearings one of the
applicant said: Give me his CD and I
will play it. And he has been played
since then.
4442 Again, do we have
a yardstick to measure that at this point?
No, but we thought that we had already launched our first emerging
artist before we even held a licence.
It's those types of small victories that we think we will be able to
quantify en masse when we are licensed.
4443 MR. E.
TORRES: Robyn...?
4444 MS METCALFE: And I think because it's a new format and a
new radio station it's going to be baby steps, if you will, by seeing, I think
first off, getting new blues artists in the market, getting them on our radio
show, playing their CDs, seeing the excitement and excitement for that, and
then getting patrons to go to their shows and seeing their shows increase,
seeing them get more gigs across Canada.
I think it is going to be like a step‑by‑step process how we
can measure that.
4445 MR. CLARKE: All right.
4446 I personally spoke
to Chase Parsons at Chris Smith Management who manages Nelly Furtado, they
manage Tamia, they manage Jarvis Church, they manage Jacksoul and a number of
Canadian artists. Their artists have a
lot of blues songs in their repertoire that they don't release because there is
no outlet to release them, and when I told them about what we were endeavouring
to do he was excited because he knew that his artist would have a way to
release these songs as well, too.
4447 So I mean that's
the way that we can measure success, by these current artists that are out
there starting to release their blues music because there is a venue to release
it.
4448 MR. BERNARD: We also saw a great example of the
effectiveness of, again, stations that are willing to play emerging
artists in helping their careers.
4449 Just yesterday in
Phase III the young musician from the east coast who supported the Evanov
application, I think the question, to paraphrase, was asked, you know: Previous to getting airplay on the Evanov
station there, how many stations were you aware of where you had exposure in
Canada? I think it was essentially
zero. The young man couldn't get airplay
in Halifax and when he subsequently did on the Evanov station the question was
then asked: Well, what happened? And he quickly answered "Well, you know,
I'm now being played on 15 stations across the country."
4450 So it was tangible
evidence again of how stations that are willing to work hard for emerging
artists can definitely accelerate those careers and in a very short period of time
see those careers change for the better.
4451 COMMISSIONER
MENZIES: Just sort of one more
question ‑‑ there might be another one, but one more
question. How do you envision your
corporate structure working so that while you can take advantage of a national
brand, you can still have a vibrant local identity?
4452 MR. E.
TORRES: I think that that's ‑‑
I mean there's a lot of broadcasters that do a very good job of that right
now. We would take our lead from
them. When you look at an easy rock
brand or a BEAR or a Q brand, those are well‑established radio formats,
they do a great job of producing local content, covering their local
areas. So a brand can be national and
still provide a very much‑needed local service.
4453 I mean, we are
very strong believers because our background is spoken word ‑‑
and we have said this a number of times also, but news and information is
central to what a radio station does and the radio stations that do a good job
of covering their local communities are the stations that are successful.
4454 COMMISSIONER
MENZIES: Okay. Thank you.
4455 That concludes my
questions.
4456 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
4457 Commissioner
Cugini...?
4458 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
4459 I just want to
follow up on the discussion you had with Commissioner Menzies and that is ‑‑
and we have talked about this before at previous hearings, but it goes directly
to the distinctiveness of your sound.
4460 Obviously research
is conducted and it's conducted on the basis of what is available in the market
and what is not available in the market.
But you have no control over what other applicants do in the same
proceeding, so my question is this ‑‑ a phrase we all love to
use: If the Commission, in its wisdom,
were to license you and one of the other two classic rock/new rock applicants,
would you survive and what effect would it have on your business plan?
4461 MR. E.
TORRES: I believe absolutely we would
survive. I think in terms of numbers an
easy answer might be it might have a 10 to 15 per cent effect on the
overall business plan. I don't think it
would be substantially more.
4462 Again, we need to
repatriate the dollars to the market that are going out of the market. Because we have the national sales team we
know where those dollars are already because we have worked in the market and
for the market. Again, that gives us an
advantage we think over someone else.
4463 But sure, I'm not
really pulling that number out of the air, we have been asked this question
before, in particular with the classic rock.
4464 If you look at who
is listening to radio in Guelph, I mean you have Q107 in there ranked in the
top six. We think that adding another
rock format, you are still going to have Q107 in there in the top six. Listeners to Q107 are not going to leave Q107
to listen to a local rock station. Some
of them are, but most of them are going to stick around.
4465 So when we look at
the neighbouring markets of St. Catherine's and Hamilton, those two in
specific, Q107 still pulls an equal amount of share of rock listeners from
those markets.
4466 You know, the
promotions ‑‑ and Robyn, we have talked about this before, the
promotions are going to be better because Q107 has resources that a Guelph
local station is not going to have. The
personalities are going to be the personalities that you have grown up
with. John Derringer has been at Q I
think for close to 20 ‑‑ 20 years. I think when we started Skywords and we were
on Q he was the afternoon host. So we
don't think that those listeners are necessarily going to leave Q107.
4467 You know, our
listeners are going to come from the great disenfranchised that are
leaving radio. Some of them are going to
come from rock stations because we are playing tracks now that are different,
so you are not going to hear Hotel California on our radio station. We think that those tracks burned, but still
we hear them in the rock marketplace every day.
4468 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Would the licensing of you and a
classic rock/new rock station present a different challenge in terms of
appealing to retail advertisers in particular in the market because both of you
will be hitting the ground running, probably around the same time? What is your pitch going to be to the local
Toyota dealer who says "I'm all confused.
I'm all confused. I already get
that guy, you know, on this station, or I could get that guy on this new
station and he may not be as well versed in music as you are."
4469 So how do you
explain the difference to him and why he should perhaps advertise on both?
4470 MR. E.
TORRES: And I guess ‑‑
and I will ask Aubrey to expand on this, but I think we take in that CD that
you saw yesterday and we say we are a blues station but here is the music that
we are going to play. It's a little bit
different than what you are used to, but it is still going to be very
mainstream. And this is a demographic
that it appeals to, it is 35 to 54 and here is our research.
4471 Aubrey, you are
the professional...
4472 MR. CLARKE: Right.
4473 It's also a
lifestyle of the people who are listening to the blues music versus the
lifestyle of people who are listening to, let's say, a classic rock or a
rock station. You know, we sell
a lifestyle as opposed to music format.
So, you know, I have to give them a picture of maybe a Commissioner
Cugini for instance that might be listening to the blues.
4474 So that's how we
sell. We sell to people as opposed to
the music.
4475 Also, John
Blaicher was here from the OFSC earlier and he spoke about us partnering
with OFSC and us handling their media for them as well.
4476 That's an
advantage at Skywords that we have.
There are a number of clients that we help them with their media so we
already know where some of our revenue is coming from because we sort of
control that revenue, you know, ahead of time.
4477 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: I'm not sure flattery alone will
get you a licence, but thank you.
--- Laughter / Rires
4478 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
4479 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
4480 Legal counsel...?
4481 MR. McINTYRE: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
4482 I have just one
point of clarification and it will be very ‑‑ it will sound
very familiar to you guys. Just a
question about the Category 3 commitment.
4483 In the application
you committed to 30 per cent and today you submitted 20 per cent.
4484 Is that correct?
4485 MR. TROTTIER: Yes.
4486 MR. McINTYRE: My follow up question is: If we were to impose a 30 per cent
requirement, would you accept that as a COL?
4487 MR. E.
TORRES: No, I don't believe we could
accept a 30 per cent just because to be a Cat. 2 station we would
need a buffer between the Cat. 2 and the Cat. 3.
4488 So we would be
willing to accept 25 per cent, but we would prefer a 20 per cent
condition of licence.
4489 MR. McINTYRE: Thank you.
4490 I just have the
one undertaking to read into the record, confirmation of financing availability
by October 30th.
4491 MR. E.
TORRES: Yes, we undertake to provide
that.
4492 MR. McINTYRE: Thank you.
4493 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
‑‑‑ Off microphone
/ Sans microphone
4494 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you
very much. It's not recorded,
ladies and gentlemen.
4495 So we will break
for 90 minutes. We will proceed again
with the next item at 2 o'clock.
4496 Thank you.
‑‑‑ Upon
recessing at 1230 / Suspension à 1230
‑‑‑ Upon
resuming at 1407 / Reprise à 1407
4497 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Order, please.
4498 Madam
Secretary...?
4499 ASSISTANT
SECRETARY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
4500 Before we start, I
wish to inform you for the record that the applicant United Christian
Broadcasters have submitted responses to undertakings for the London
market: One, a revised financial
assumption with explanation of depreciation; as well as the breakdown on spoken
word and balanced programming; and, finally, a clarification on CDD
initiatives.
4501 Those documents
will be added to the public record and copies are available in the examination
room.
4502 We will now
proceed with Item 11, which is an application by Blackburn Radio Inc. for
a licence to operate an English‑language FM commercial radio programming
undertaking in Guelph.
4503 The new station
would operate on frequency 101.5, Channel 268A, with an average effective
radiated power of 132 W, maximum effective radiated power of 500 W, with
effective height of antenna above average terrain of 40 m.
4504 Appearing for the
applicant is Mr. Richard Costley‑White.
4505 Please introduce
your colleagues and you will have 20 minutes to make your presentation.
PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
4506 MR. COSTLEY‑WHITE: Thank you very much.
4507 Good afternoon,
Mr. Chair, Members of the Commission and CRTC staff.
4508 My name is Richard
Costley‑White. I'm sitting over
here at this end this time. I am the
owner, Chair and Chief Executive Officer of Blackburn Radio Inc.
4509 Today we are
presenting the second of our applications for a new FM service in southwestern
Ontario. Before we begin our
presentation I wish to present the members of our team.
4510 To my right is
John Weese, General Manager for the Wingham‑based radio stations and a
long‑time media executive for Blackburn beginning in 1990. John has 28 years in the media industry. John put together our application and will
quarterback our responses in the question period.
4511 To John's right is
Justin Oliphant, the Program Director of The BULL, Blackburn's rock station in
the Wingham. While Justin is one of this
industries youngest Program Directors, he is now entering his fourth year at
the helm and has eight years of media experience in various capacities at
various stations.
4512 To Justin's right
is Gina Lorentz. Gina is the Program
Director for our Wingham‑based The ONE FM. In the past she served as News Director for
570 news in Kitchener and in 2004 she accepted an Edward R. Murrow Award for
best newscast in New York. Gina provided
valuable guidance in developing our proposals for news and information.
4513 Next to Gina is
Andrew Campbell. Andrew is the
Agricultural Director and Farm Reporter for our CKNX stations. With the large footprint of the University of
Guelph in the Guelph market, Andrew will provide valuable direction and
strength to our coverage of agricultural business, academic and science and
technology issues. Andrew will also host
a weekly agri‑lifestyle program entitled "Farm Out".
4514 To Andrew's right
is Joan Moore. Joan is our specialist in
the area of community marketing. We are
eager to tell you more about community marketing later in this presentation.
4515 In the second row,
just behind me, are colleagues who are available to provide expertise and, if
necessary, clarification.
4516 Starting from my
right is Peter Doering of Peter Doering Consultants Inc. who conducted our
format research. Peter has 37 years of
experience in market research.
4517 To his left is Rob
Enders our Director of Engineering who can address any
technical issues. Rob has over 20
years of industry experience and came to Blackburn 10 years ago from
Q107 in Toronto.
4518 Next to Rob is our
Promotions Coordinator David McTeague.
David recently came to us from FLOW in Toronto and he specializes in
creating and executing listener support initiatives, including live on‑location
broadcasts, hosting and emceeing of community events and general contests and
promotions.
4519 David is also
responsible for content development and website management in Wingham. He will play a lead role in developing The
DUKE's web presence.
4520 Next to David is
Blackburn Radios Canadian Content Development Coordinator and long‑time
radio executive Walter Ploegman. Walter
will speak to the specifics of our $280,000 pledge for Canadian Content
Development.
4521 Finally, beside
Walter is Jason Ploegman who is Blackburn's emerging technology
point person. Jason has been
particularly involved in developing a web strategy for our company,
including the construction of websites to accommodate local and emerging
artists in our southwestern Ontario properties.
4522 Earlier in these
hearings I appeared with our London team to present our application for an
adult album alternative station. Today
our proposal is to bring local competition for the first time to Guelph radio
with a broad‑based rock format that serves the large demographic that
must listen to out of market radio to meet its needs, men from 18 to 54.
4523 While the two
formats we are proposing may seem quite different, what they have in common is
the Blackburn approach based on strong and independent local management and
strong local service, anchored in large news departments and community service
initiatives.
4524 At the same time,
our stations benefit from back office synergies, the experience of our team in
putting successful local stations on air and access to news and programming
resources of other nearby stations.
4525 With autonomous
locally‑based station management, 101.5 The DUKE will be an
enthusiastic partner for the City of Guelph.
Our staff will embrace the opportunity to contribute to local events and
causes.
4526 Blackburn Radio
has forged this relationship and role in our other radio stations, radio
service communities and we will extend it to Guelph. Not only is it a way of being that we can all
take pride in, it is also in our business interest. We ask you to choose Blackburn Radio Inc. to
provide an exciting new radio service for Guelph.
4527 To present our
plans for Guelph more specifically, I am pleased to hand off to John Weese.
4528 MR. WEESE: Thank you, Richard.
4529 Good afternoon,
Mr. Chair and Commissioners.
4530 When the
Commission issued its call for applications for Guelph, our first job was to
determine whether there was a frequency that could serve the city
adequately. I can assure you that was a
big challenge. In fact, we only found
one relatively low power frequency that covers the city, and it only covers the
city.
4531 Whoever is awarded
this licence will not be able to depend on revenues from an extended
market. They will have to live on
revenues from Guelph in competition with a two‑station combo with
heritage stations and deep pockets.
4532 To be viable we
had to do our homework to be sure that the market could support a new entrant
and to be sure that we choose the right format that will reach the largest
unserved need. We knew that in this
market it was not a niche format that was needed, but rather an unserved
mainstream format. I can assure you that
we have done our homework on Guelph. We
have camped out, tuned in, researched, surveyed and engaged in numerous
conversations with a wide variety of stakeholders. This was done to first determine the need and
viability and, secondly, to understand how to best fit the bill.
4533 Here is what we
have learned. Most startling were the
results of the fall '07 BBM analysis adults 18‑plus. In Guelph, 80 per cent of all listening
is lost to out of market radio stations.
The analysis underscored a dire need to address out of market turning.
4534 Males,
particularly those aged 18 to 54, are grossly underserved by the existing
in‑market choices in the City of Guelph.
This fact is underscored that 87 per cent of male tuning is out of
market radio.
4535 Guelph's radio
advertising sales are underdeveloped as well.
Using the Financial Post's markets retail sales data as a factor, we
estimate the radio potential for Guelph CMA could be as high as
$5.8 million. Currently we estimate
that $4.5 million is being extracted and as much as 2 million of these
radio dollars going out of the market to neighbouring radio groups.
4536 The 2008
population estimate for the City of Guelph is 124,700, yet the city is only
served by one local private radio operator with one AM station and one FM
station. By comparison, the
Belleville/Quinte CMA is approximately 100,000 people and it is served with
five commercial radio stations and two operators. Similarly, Kingston, Ontario, with the CMA of
about the same as Guelph's, has six FM stations and three competing operators.
4537 Moreover, retail
sales in Guelph are projected to grow at a much higher rate than in those other
two markets.
4538 Despite the recent
bad news emanating south of the border which is causing a slowdown in our
economy, the Guelph Economic Development Corporation projects continued growth
for our local economy. More precisely ,
in a letter dated as recently as October 10th, David Corks, Downtown
Economic Development Manager for the City of Guelph, indicated that the Guelph
economy is poised for continued growth with three major directions: downtown revitalization, business park land
sales and the agri‑business sector.
4539 It's clear to us
that the Guelph marketplace is ripe and ready to welcome a new radio service
and a new player. Considering the
outstanding need to address unserved males, our gut told us that a rock‑based
format would be the best fit. However,
our experience told us to verify our impressions with a third‑party
research organization that would provide us with reliable and dispassionate
answers.
4540 We turned to Peter
Doering Consultants Inc. and they tested seven different formats and conducted
300 telephone interviews. The results of
the research clearly pointed to two leading formats, classic rock and the other
was a blend of classic rock and new rock.
Our choice is the blended format of classic rock and new rock.
4541 To explain how we
intend to bring this format to life, here is Justin Oliphant.
4542 MR. OLIPHANT: Thanks, John.
4543 Good afternoon,
Commissioners.
4544 As the Program
Director of The BULL in Wingham I can't imagine anyone being happier with the
format research results than myself.
Rock, well, rocks. And knowing
firsthand how exciting, fun and successful this format can be, especially in
markets where a local rocker doesn't exist is especially true.
4545 Blackburn has
already had the experience of launching new broad‑based rock stations in
markets as different as Wingham with The BULL and in Windsor with The
Rock. In both cases the station launched
a competitive success. And our rock
station in Sarnia K106.3 dominates its market despite the competition from
nearby Michigan.
4546 BBM and the
Doering research were loud and clear, Guelph is hungry for a rock station to
call its own. Guelph listeners love both
classic rock and newer rock that's compatible and right now they are not being
served by local radio. I met Guelph
listeners during a visit to the market, while they want rock they are tired of
rock stations that refer to Toronto, London or Cambridge, they want to hear
about events in their own city.
4547 The DUKE promises
to deliver their favourites, the Tragically Hip, Led Zeppelin, The Who, Neil
Young, AC/DC, Rush and the Rolling Stones will do most of the heavy lifting,
while newer releases from the Foo Fighters, Theory of a Deadman, Linkin Park
and Three Days Grace will enhance the playlist.
4548 We have committed
to 40 per cent Canadian content played evenly throughout our broadcast day
and, finally, artists like Matt Mays and El Torpedo, Finger Eleven,
Mobile, Sam Roberts and City in Colour will have a platform in Guelph.
4549 In addition to
being the home for Canada's biggest and brightest stars, The DUKE will devote
5 per cent of weekly spins to emerging Canadian talent such as Die
Mannequin, My Darkest Days, Floor Thirteen and Age of Daze.
4550 Our website,
1015theduke.com, will complement our on‑air support for new and emerging
artists with a number of initiatives, including a month long look at an
emerging band.
4551 A station
nicknamed The DUKE has no choice other than to be cool. Our presentation style will reflect
this. Our features will underscore this
style.
4552 The Royal Flush
will feature five of the biggest songs from some of our biggest
featured artists.
4553 DUKE It out is a
contest where listeners choose a winner between two classic artists.
4554 The DUKE Has
Stones says it all, songs from the world's most legendary rock band the Rolling
Stones.
4555 Then there is Farm
Out, a most unique programming feature intended for the enjoyment of Guelph's
wagon full of aggis. Farm Out, hosted by
Blackburn Farm Broadcaster Andrew Campbell, is a lifestyle program, a cool show
for young students and professionals in agricultural sciences, as well as
residents who need to know how the food gets from the field to their
plate. Music, discussions, phone‑ins
and a lot of fun.
4556 Here is a short
sample of Farm Out.
‑‑‑ Audio
clip / Clip audio
4557 MR. OLIPHANT: An important aspect of The DUKE's programming
is getting it right in the news department.
4558 To speak of our
commitment in news coverage and information here is Gina Lorentz.
4559 MS LORENTZ: Thanks, Justin.
4560 Make no mistake,
while The DUKE is a music intense rock station we believe our audience deserves
to be well‑informed with solid news coverage, especially on the local
beat. This is the Blackburn Radio way.
4561 The DUKE's
newsroom will contain four staff on the ground with the ability to seek
resources from other Blackburn radio stations when required in the event of
emergencies, if specific expertise is required, or if there is a regional
commonality with a story.
4562 As mentioned in
the London presentation, we already have a news sharing system in place that
provides access to a larger range of stories, while leaving the choice of news
up to the local station.
4563 Our morning and
afternoon drive shifts will offer news packages at both the top and bottom
of the hour and a regular news schedule for midday evenings and
weekends. In all, 81 newscasts each
week. We will provide over 6 1/2 hours
of newscasts, of which 3 hours and 38 minutes will be pure news.
4564 1015theduke.com
will provide expanded access to news stories.
The website will also allow Guelph listeners access to stories from our
other stations to hot links.
4565 Considering our
male‑oriented demo, The DUKE will also need to be strong on sports, with
a lot of reporting on both the local scene, including coverage of the Guelph
Storm of OHL, as well as covering the pro circuits. We will provide over 2 1/4 hours of
sports reporting each week as part of our newscasts.
4566 In addition, we
expect that each week during hockey season we will invite a Storm
player or coach to come onto our morning show for a brief interview.
4567 We will also
provide a number of other spoken word features, including community
announcements, an evening talk show and Andrew's Farm Out program, in all, over
13 1/2 hours of spoken word each week.
4568 Our local focus
also includes our commitment to community marketing.
4569 To touch on this
important area of our business plan is Joan Moore.
4570 MS MOORE: Thank you, Gina.
4571 While many radio
stations provide free mentions, discounted commercial rates or provide an emcee
for an event, Blackburn Radio has significantly raised the bar with a whole new
level of service for these important stakeholders.
4572 As a community
marketing representative and working in a department purely dedicated to
serving not‑for‑profit clients, we offer a consultative full market
approach. This includes off‑site
meetings, event planning advice, creative copy, scheduling, on‑air
interviews and on‑air mention program ticket giveaways and on‑air
community calendar, a live report of the event, and often we are happy to emcee
that event as well. We call all of this
community marketing and it has proven to be a win‑win proposition and a
viable function of our business.
4573 Our CKNX radio
operation out of Wingham helped to raise millions of dollars for organizations
in Midwestern Ontario.
4574 For example, this
past weekend we held our annual Healthcare Heroes Radiothon at CKNX
in Wingham. In the past seven years
we have raised in excess of $4 million for 15 hospitals in our coverage
area.
4575 Our promotion of
Relay For Life assisted the region's Cancer Society in raising over a half a
million dollars.
4576 Community
marketing will be an important community service cornerstone to The DUKE.
4577 Sometimes this
kind of outreach also results in programming features. I am pleased that our contact with the
Wellington‑Dufferin‑Guelph Health Unit has resulted in their
agreement to partner with us on a weekly health feature. We expect to run that once a week in the
morning program.
4578 Then there is our
Canadian Content Development commitment, in excess of $280,000.
4579 With the details
on this is Blackburn CCD Steward Walter Ploegman.
4580 MR. W.
PLOEGMAN: Thank you, Joan.
4581 Good afternoon
Members of the Commission.
4582 Blackburn's
commitment in this area is underscored by my role as a manager of this
investment and process. In Guelph, after
researching the needs and interviewing several individuals of qualifying
recipients of CCD monies, we have determined that the following best fit the
Commission's CCD criteria.
4583 We will invest
$12,000 annually in our all Canadian rock music event called the DUKE's Battle
Royale. The winning and high placing
entries will earn funding for studio and production time, as well as exposure. But they will also get much more. Of course they will be featured on The DUKE
both on‑air and through 1015theduke.com.
4584 I have a
particular role to be an ambassador for the artists we champion in each market
by making sure the other rock stations in our company consider them for airplay
and support as well.
4585 All of our
stations have agreed that the winners will be featured in their Indie spotlight
programs. This means exposure in
Windsor, Chatham, Sarnia and Wingham.
And vice versa, The DUKE will support the artists our stations in these
other markets discover.
4586 In our London
presentation I told you about our emerging talent contest. The winner of the Battle Royale would
participate in that initiative as well, if we are fortunate enough to be
awarded both licences.
4587 Additionally, we
will provide $70,000 to the Guelph Arts Council who will utilize these
funds to assist numerous music programs in the City of Guelph.
4588 Guelph's premier
venue for the performing arts The River Run Centre will receive $70,000 to fund
exciting new showcases featuring new and emerging Canadian artists.
4589 In all, including
our commitment to FACTOR, we intend to invest $280,000 in Canadian content
contributions over the course of our first license period. This is over and above our basic commitment.
4590 In regards to
programming of Canadian content on air, we are committed to 40 per cent of
evenly scheduled Canadian content, including a minimum 5 per cent of all
spins coming from new and emerging Canadian talent. These artists will be heard throughout the
program schedule and will also be featured in our weekly program The DUKE
Debuts.
4591 Here to sum up is
John Weese.
4592 MR. WEESE: Thank you, Walter.
4593 We ask the
Commission to grant Blackburn Radio a licence so that we can positively enhance
the experience of living in Guelph and also to bring to life the excitement of
The DUKE.
4594 We would like to
underscore some of the following points.
4595 For starters,
Guelph is underserved with few stations and no local competition. Consequently, Guelph listeners truly
overwhelmingly tune out of the market to out market radio. Guelph men listen to out of market to an even
greater extent.
4596 Research that
looked at seven different formats led us to a conclusion that was pretty
obvious, the largest unserved format is rock.
4597 Despite the city
only signal and entry against a strong competitor with two local stations and
regional stations that enter the market, we believe we can provide a strong
alternative.
4598 Our success has
always been started with local service and we made substantial commitments to
news and other local programming for Guelph.
We propose the largest commitment to news staff and to hours of news of
any of the new applicants.
4599 The expertise and
resources of our other stations in southwestern Ontario will allow us to put a
high‑quality station on the air at a reasonable cost. Given the level of competition and the
weakness of the signal the maximum resources must go to programming and local
reflection and the minimum possible to back office costs. We have launched successful rock formats in
Windsor, Sarnia, Chatham and Wingham and we know how to do it. Our stations are successful and contribute to
the communities and to Canadian artists.
4600 We would like to
leave you with this audio sample introducing The DUKE.
‑‑‑ Audio
clip / Clip audio
4601 MR. WEESE: Thank you for your attention and we welcome
your questions.
4602 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Weese.
4603 I'm introducing
our Commissioner Simpson.
4604 COMMISSIONER
SIMPSON: Hello. Thank you very much. Thank you for shaking up these hearings a
bit.
‑‑‑ Laughter
/ Rires
4605 COMMISSIONER
SIMPSON: We were talking about the need
to do that every once in awhile and you came through with flying colours.
4606 I'm not sure where
I want to start because I have so many questions. I think I'm going to try and start wide and
go narrow later on. If I get too deep I
can always bail out at a certain point.
4607 Let's start with
programming. Your market analysis has
shown you that this is a market that by its basic demographic and its
population could probably stand another radio station or two for sure and in
looking at what's available now incumbently there seems to be a lot of
opportunity.
4608 I guess my first
impression that I would like to comment on is that because you have this white
demographic I find it interesting that you chose to take all of it. You know, it's a pretty broad demographic
when you are talking 18 to 54.
4609 I know you have a
core audience in there somewhere, but when you start moving out to the edges of
that range you start getting into taste levels and interest levels that go
beyond ‑‑ you know, it's hard to find a sweet spot is what I'm
getting at.
4610 So who would like
to talk first about the boldness of this idea of going for a broad demo with
new rock at one end and existing rock at the other and why you think it's going
to work?
4611 MR. WEESE: Okay.
Commissioner Simpson, I will provide the headwind for this.
4612 There are two
people that I would like to talk to, our researcher, Peter Doering who
did a lot of the research and he can certainly talk about where he began
and where he narrowed it down to, and then warming up in the bullpen is Justin
Oliphant and he will address how we are going to satisfying that demo.
4613 So I would like to
call on Peter Doering to comment.
4614 MR. DOERING: Thank you, John.
4615 We looked at the
profile of people who are most likely to listen to a classic rock/new rock
station and although it is a broad base from 18 to 54 in fact you actually
get about a fifth of the audience in the 18‑24 segment, another fifth 25
to 34, another fifth 35 to 44 and another fifth 45 to 54, with a little higher
than a fifth in each and then about 13 per cent above 55. So really the music category appeals to a
broad range.
4616 MR. OLIPHANT: We have already launched a station similar to
this in Wingham with The BULL to immediate success. This station was already on in businesses,
already on in garages, already on in cars while we were still testing.
4617 I have seen
personally the same kind of excitement in the eyes of residents of Guelph. Guelphites need a local rocker. I went down on a weekend and visited the Wal‑Mart
parking lots, the Home Depot parking lots.
I was hanging out in front of the mall and walking down the streets and
harassing just about anybody that would listen and saying "Would you
listen to a local rocker" and they said "Yes, but it has to be two
things, it has to be local ‑‑ and I already alluded to that of
my opening remarks. They don't want to
hear about London, they don't want to hear about Cambridge, they don't want to
hear about Hamilton and Toronto ‑‑ and it has to play what I
want." And I said "Well, what
do you want?"
4618 So I played them a
bunch of different montages of music, new stuff from the Foo Fighters, Linkin
Park, Nickelback. They loved it. Metallica, Motley Crue, AC/DC. They loved it. Led Zeppelin, the Stones, the Beatles. They loved it. Bob Dylan, the Byrds. They loved it. So we said let's build a local rock station
for the locals. This is a made in Guelph
product made for the people of Guelph.
They want a broad rocker, we have done it before, we have made it win
and we could do it again in Guelph.
4619 COMMISSIONER
SIMPSON: How long has The BULL been in
this format?
4620 MR. OLIPHANT: Since April 1, 2005.
4621 COMMISSIONER
SIMPSON: And the book is telling you
that you are on the right track?
4622 MR. WEESE: Yes, absolutely it is. We started off with a lot more share than we
anticipated.
4623 The conditions
there in that market are a little bit different than we are here so we don't
have huge share expectations here. In
fact, I think year one share is 7 per cent. What we discovered with The BULL is that our
year one share was closer to 18 in a neighbouring market and competed at about
a 12 share in our home market.
4624 COMMISSIONER
SIMPSON: Nice segue.
4625 Speaking of share,
you are coming out of the gate with a 7 per cent share, growing to 8. Now, is this projection based on the fact that
there are so few incumbents in the market or that you really feel that you are
going to be able to get that away listener back to a local radio station?
4626 MR. WEESE: Right.
I'm going to ask Peter Doering to comment exactly on where he
arrived at that figure and maybe provide some words of that figure.
4627 It was quite
apparent to us that there was a real hunger for a rock station in the market
and so when we discovered through the research that it was 7 per cent we
were pleasantly not surprised when we got that.
4628 But Peter, if you
want to comment on how you arrived at that?
4629 MR. DOERING: Yes.
Thanks, John.
4630 I have found over
the years that the most indicative question of predicting share for a radio
station, or in fact any product or service, is the percent who indicate they
are very likely to do something. We
found in this study that 22 per cent of the people in Guelph indicated
they would be very likely to listen to a classic rock/new rock station.
4631 Now, we don't use
a 22 per cent because that is based on 100 per cent awareness and a
whole bunch of factors, so we found that if you discount that by about a third,
which gives you the 7 per cent estimate, that is likely where you are
going to start with your share.
4632 That has proven to
be the case a number of times with a number of different product
categories. And then hope to build that
up to 10 or 11 per cent over time.
4633 COMMISSIONER
SIMPSON: Moving over to the marketing of
the format, there is going to be no doubt because again there are few
incumbents to deal with in terms of differentiating yourself.
4634 Advertisers like
to buy to a little bit tighter demographic.
Have you got any plans to segment your marketing? Give me a top‑down view as to how you
are going to take the station to local advertisers and to the national rep
houses, perhaps on the basis of what you have been doing at The BULL.
4635 MR. WEESE: Oh, okay.
Very good.
4636 We always found
that our best success came from first building the product and so ‑‑
and you will see in our numbers, too, that we start off what I think is rather
conservative numbers because we believe we have to build the audience first.
4637 It has been many,
many years since they last put on a new radio station in Guelph and so there is
a tremendous amount of out of market tuning and particularly in the area of
rock. Male needs have been somewhat
served by Q107, Y108, KoolFM and a number of rock stations.
4638 So in the area of
national advertising, for example when you look at our figures, we have very
modest expectations of gaining national business. So we have to earn our stripes in programming
and we have to build them an audience and we have to build the share and we
have to do that before we can go down to Toronto and some of the national
agencies and with a straight face ask them to invest money.
4639 Locally the same
is true, we have to get on the radar screen in Guelph and we have to be able to
grab their attention and we have to get their excitement and hook them with our
programming before we can offer a marketing case that we believe will satisfy
their needs.
4640 The question, or I
think the challenge is how do we cut through that and what sort of marketing
efforts can we do to grab their attention and to get on that radar screen?
4641 There are a couple
of people that I would like to ask to talk about that. One is Justin, our programmer, and also our
Programming Coordinator David McTeague who is with us today too, to talk about
some of the initiatives we have to cut through that.
4642 Justin, if you
would start...?
4643 MR. OLIPHANT: Absolutely.
4644 And with all due
respect to the out‑of‑market stations, they are just that, they are
out of market. They have become heritage
by default.
4645 With a local
rocker in Guelph ‑‑ and again, if I start sounding like a
broken record feel free to move the needle.
4646 With a local
rocker in Guelph it is going to cause a lot of buzz right off the hop because
there is a pent‑up demand. As I
have said before, I have seen it in their eyes, they really want this and they
need it to be local.
4647 The programming is
going to be just that, the greatest rock 'n roll that they have grown up with
and that their kids are starting to grow up with, too. The amazing thing is that the children are
now listening to the same music that dad and mom grew up with, Jumpin' Jack
flash by the Stones, Revolution by the Beatles, Hells Bells by AC/DC. They love that old sound. They love that classic sound. And they are bringing with them these new hoard
of rockers like Nickelback and Buckcherry and Theory of a Dead Man and The
Trews and mom and dad are starting to get turned onto it too, they are saying
"Hey, that reminds me a lot of the first time I listened to Ramble On by
Led Zeppelin".
4648 That broad
demographic of music, the 2000 plus songs, is something that you very rarely
see on rock stations' plates anymore. We
have trimmed it down so much that the waters are becoming very diluted. You know, Highway to Hell, all the time;
Hotel California, all the time. AC/DC
went more than three singles deep on a lot of records and there are some great
"B" sides that have never been played on the airwaves until The DUKE
arrives.
4649 The Eagles did
more than just Hotel California and the Long Run. Those tunes haven't hit the airwaves until
The DUKE arrives.
4650 That is how we are
going to crack the market with our programming and deal with the out of market
tuning and we also have a very great combat when we hit the streets.
4651 To talk more about
that I would like to pass it over to David McTeague.
4652 MR. McTEAGUE: Hello, Panel.
4653 Our marketing
promotions plan, it begins with generating and regenerating local business with
the ability to support it. That comes
with local promotions, things like The DUKE and the Guelph Storm Shut out
Hunger at this as Sleeman Centre, a food drive to raise awareness for people in
need.
4654 Publicity stunts,
the Goof on the Roof where we put the jock on the roof of the Stone Road Mall
to raise awareness about the need for jackets and people in need, partnered
with the Salvation Army.
4655 Of course, with a
lot of out of market tuning we need to have promotions that are ratings driven
so we have something called the Royal Road Trips where we send listeners for a
three night stay to Kansas City to see the Toronto Blue Jays take on the Kansas
City Royals. How about we send them over
to Los Angeles to see the Toronto Maple Leafs take on the Los Angeles Kings. And of course musically to see Queen live in
concert with Paul Rogers.
4656 The next thing we
have is viral marketing. We know there
is a big pent‑up demand for this and we have a lot of ideas to pass along
our marketing message creatively. Joan
earlier talked about our community outreach with our planned involvement in
community affairs and support.
4657 Finally, our
website which is supported by three pillars of listener support, community
support and artist support.
4658 COMMISSIONER
SIMPSON: Thank you.
4659 Mr. Oliphant, if
you are successful with this you may have redefined the
term "family programming".
‑‑‑ Laughter
/ Rires
4660 COMMISSIONER
SIMPSON: Thank you very much.
4661 I think what I
hear you saying is that you are going to go in with more of a programming and
promotional approach, you are going to do the full meal deal with an advertiser
to win them as opposed to just relying on demographic marketing. I think I understand that.
4662 Mr. Weese, may I
just go back to you had mentioned something I was going to ask you about with
respect to your pro forma. To say that
it was a conservative ‑‑ I'm looking at some figures our staff
had pulled with respect to dollars per percentage point of audience.
4663 Your pro forma was
extremely conservative compared to even what the market is doing now. I think it was one share point being
equivalent to about $172,000.
4664 MR. WEESE: Right.
4665 COMMISSIONER
SIMPSON: You know, the market, as you
probably know, is clocking in at about $210,000 and some of your competitive
proponents are feeling they can extract up to $230,000 per percentage
point. That's a pretty big spread.
4666 I mean I ask you
this: Why do you feel that you are
going ‑‑ if you are going to come out of the gate with such a
high share of market, why do you feel that your revenue projections should be
as conservative as they are?
4667 MR. WEESE: Again, a bit of that is based on our past
experience.
4668 The Bull's tuning
far out‑polled the dollars that fell behind it, and it took us a while to
get our legs.
4669 What we discovered
here ‑‑ and I don't think we have it wrong. I think, from our experience ‑‑
when we introduced a rock format up in midwestern Ontario, there wasn't a local
rock format there before. So it took
awhile to convince advertisers, who traditionally have advertised on family
radio stations, and AM radio stations, and AC radio stations ‑‑
they knew what all of that was about. It
was a little bit of a longer sales pitch to convince them that going on a rock
station, which can, at times, be a bit irreverent, with music that is a bit
foreign to their ears, especially in lyrics, was a wise investment.
4670 It wasn't as easy
as just going and pulling the low-bearing fruit from our other stations and
trying to put it on a radio station, we had to go out and develop advertising
customers.
4671 And we suggest
that, in this market, that is going to be the case, because our dollars are
going to come from within Guelph. They
are not going to come from outside the market.
The signal doesn't allow it to do that, so our dollars are going to have
to come from within the city.
4672 People who have
had, as radio choices, the two Corus stations here, getting them to make the
leap to a rock station ‑‑ I think it is going to take us a
while to get our legs.
4673 I did the same
procedure as the staff did in determining dollars per share point. My dollars are a little bit different, but
what I have is that we are very conservative in Year 1, as we try to get our
legs. However, if you look at our Year
3, it looks to me like we are bang on.
We estimate that the market will be worth $172,000 per share, and by
Year 5 we are going to have 10 percent of the share. So we are calling for 1.7, and our Year 5 is
calling for 1.7.
4674 I think we are
very close in how we are approaching it.
We are going to get to the market, we are just saying that we are going
to start a little bit more conservatively.
4675 COMMISSIONER
SIMPSON: But it seems to me, from what
you are telling me, that it will be a little bit more of a challenge to sell
the market, because this is not what they are used to ‑‑
advertisers I mean.
4676 You, obviously,
are convinced that this is the route to go, because you are not really turning
the corner until Year 4, unless you have a pleasant surprise.
4677 MR. WEESE: Right.
4678 COMMISSIONER
SIMPSON: Moving over to another part of
the programming for a second, in your supplementary brief to us, with respect
to emerging artists, you had a cautionary note concerning the 5 percent spin of
emerging artists.
4679 I would like you
to talk to me a bit more, so that I understand it, and the Commission, in terms
of what you meant by saying that you don't control the output of emerging
artists, and the method by which they appear doesn't happen on a weekly basis,
it could be on a monthly basis, and you wanted a little bit wider tolerance in
that regard, and, also, to not have this as a Condition of Licence.
4680 Is that not
correct?
4681 MR. WEESE: Okay.
I don't recall reading in the brief exactly those words.
4682 I can tell you
that it is important for us ‑‑ we are not anti‑emerging
artists by any means.
4683 And 5 percent,
when you factor the amount of spins, is quite a bit of spins. I did the math on it, and it is something
like 6 hours a week of emerging artist music when you factor the spins.
4684 COMMISSIONER
SIMPSON: Yes.
4685 MR. WEESE: What is important to us is that we stay on
format, that we deliver what we promise as far as programming is concerned.
4686 I think we made a
very solid commitment to Canadian content of 40 percent, and not just 40
percent, but 40 percent evenly played throughout the broadcast week.
4687 Emerging artists
are something that we certainly welcome, and would love to create forums for.
4688 To tell us a
little bit about it ‑‑ Justin, if you wouldn't mind talking
about some of the exciting plans that we have with emerging artists.
4689 MR. OLIPHANT: Absolutely.
4690 We have mentioned
the fact that they will be getting a month‑long feature on our website,
which is great. It's amazing
exposure. It's a tool that everybody
uses now, and to be able to find your favourite band, that is just breaking the
scene on the streets of Winnipeg, only a click away at
"101.5theduke.com" is fantastic.
4691 To hear their
music on The Duke's airwaves is even greater.
4692 A band out of
Winnipeg right now, which we are featuring heavy on The Bull ‑‑
and I have since passed down to the Program Directors in Windsor, in Chatham
and in Sarnia ‑‑ is a band called "Floor Thirteen",
an exceptional sound. You don't see them
being played across a lot of the airwaves in Canadian rock radio. Why?
Your guess is as good as mine.
4693 Bands like Age of
Daze, Wide Open Throttle out of Stratford ‑‑ we started
getting requests out of nowhere, before this music was even in our hands, so I
had to do some researching online, doing the MySpace thing, finding these
bands ‑‑ finding their music.
4694 Programmers don't
always have that kind of time. We want
these bands to be able to solicit their music to us. Get the records out. Get them in the hands of music directors and
program directors across the country.
4695 They have a good
sound, and have since found a home on The Bull's airwaves, and will no doubt,
once we launch a station in Guelph, find a home on The Duke's airwaves.
4696 A band out of London,
Bob Noxious, was virtually unknown in midwestern Ontario until they dropped a
single off ‑‑ personally, I might add ‑‑ to
my desk. I gave it a listen. I promised the guys one of the feature spins
on one of the many features that we have on the station, and it has since
become the most requested band on our station, above AC/DC.
4697 And the band has
gone from playing 300‑person venues in London ‑‑ every
time they come up to midwestern Ontario they are packing arena floors ‑‑
1,000 people ‑‑ and instead of making $300 in London, they are
somehow bringing home $3,500 a show up in our neck of the woods.
4698 That doesn't
necessarily mean that that is going to happen everywhere in Canada, but if you
can help some of these artists make a few extra bucks in different markets by
giving them the exposure, not necessarily that they need, but for the hard work
they have put into it that they deserve, that's what The Duke is there for.
4699 COMMISSIONER
SIMPSON: Mr. Weese, thanks to our new
E-hearing software, which I am becoming a huge fan of ‑‑ on
page 26 of your supplementary brief, at Item 10, "Emerging Artists",
you say:
"We understand that the
commitments to providing exposure for emerging artists are an important part of
a radio station's contribution to meeting the goals of the Broadcasting Act...
At the same time, the Commission recognized the difficulty in developing
common requirements for all stations, stating in paragraph 90 of the new
policy: `It would be difficult to apply
either an incentive or a quota system fairly to stations operating in different
formats, because the playing of music by emerging Canadian artists is not
appropriate."
4700 Essentially, it
was replaying a dictum of ours, and you were going on to basically make the
case that because you are providing such a broadly based format ‑‑
on the following page you said:
"While we are committed to
meeting these proposals..."
-- this is Item 3, "Condition
of Licence":
"...we are not sure that it is
appropriate to create a specific Condition of Licence. The Commission noted in the Commercial Radio
Policy that it was concerned about the potential effects of imposing additional
regulations..."
4701 In essence, you
were asking:
"We are not particularly
concerned about a weekly requirement, since we do not control the ebb and flow
of releases by emerging artists. If the
Commission were to impose a Condition of Licence in this regard, we would urge
it to look at a longer period than a single week, or even a month."
4702 I am just
wondering ‑‑
4703 MR. WEESE: Okay.
4704 COMMISSIONER
SIMPSON: There were two pages related to
that, and, obviously, it was telling me that, although you felt that you were
able to meet the intent, it might be a stretch ‑‑
4705 I was getting some
cautionary notes here, and I was wondering why.
4706 MR. WEESE: I think it was just a case of making sure
that we honour the commitment and that we don't handcuff ourselves to going off
a format.
4707 There may be
occasions where we may want to, on a monthly basis perhaps, offer a program or
an event, an on‑air programming event, to highlight emerging artists
under the definition, rather than to be forced to necessarily squeeze them into
airplay on a consistent basis, which may take us a bit off format.
4708 COMMISSIONER SIMPSON: Again, because you are in new territory.
4709 Yes, I understand.
4710 I will leave it to
our legal counsel to put the question to you regarding conditions of licence in
content.
4711 MR. WEESE: Fair enough.
4712 COMMISSIONER
SIMPSON: I am from this area originally,
and I know that Guelph is quite an ag town, and I am intrigued by the
enthusiasm with which you are approaching some type of relationship with the
University of Guelph. Rock and roll
farming is quite a concept.
4713 I would like you to
elaborate a bit more on what you see as a relationship with the University of
Guelph.
4714 You said that it
was the intention of The Duke not to take advantage of, but to optimize the
reputation of the university, in terms of being able to take what it knows
about the community and the interests of agriculture and get it on the air.
4715 Now, you have
given us an example of that, but, to me, it seems that it is more than just a
recognition of the interests of agriculture, it sounds to me like you are intending
on bringing a lot of that content into some kind of "loose news that you
can use" kind of format.
4716 Is that correct?
4717 MR. WEESE: I wouldn't mind starting off on that
question.
4718 I am going to ask
Andrew Campbell, who is our Farm News Director out of Wingham, who is going to
be the host of "Farm Out", which is part of our intentions, to
explain what that is all about.
4719 We recognize that
the University of Guelph is not only producing agricultural news and
information that we can include in our newscasts, which would be items of
interest to our entire audience, but we also recognize that the university is
the second leading employer in the community, and, in addition to that, they
also are on the social consciousness, and provide that social consciousness for
the City of Guelph.
4720 When we were down
here and camped out and tuned in, and did all of the things that we did in our
due diligence in this market, we were close to some students at the University
of Guelph, and we certainly did our homework on the university, and believe
that it will have a great influence on how we behave in the market.
4721 To talk more
specifically about "Farm Out" and our farm initiatives, and
"Today's Farming", and all of that stuff, here is Andrew Campbell.
4722 MR. CAMPBELL: Thanks, John.
"All of that stuff" being farming, I guess.
4723 With the
University of Guelph, right now, I have a wonderful relationship with the
university on our AM station, based in Wingham.
Their agriculture communication provides me with weekly features that we
air, talking about some of the research they are doing at the University of
Guelph, some of the activities going on.
It is just a great opportunity for those students to be able to provide
the information, both as a learning curve for them, because this is the
industry they want to be in, as well as getting the airplay for us and
informing our listeners.
4724 We could bring
somewhat of an approach like that with some of these connections, with some of
these programs, through regular newscasts.
4725 As John mentioned,
it is the second leading employer ‑‑ close to 4,000 people, I
think, and that doesn't count the thousands and thousands of students.
4726 There is a lot of
interest for what is going on at the university.
4727 "Farm
Out" will also bring a component to that.
The idea, in my mind anyway, is to have a guest host that comes in with
me every week, and a lot of that will come from the university. They are known for their agricultural
research around the world, so for them to come in, and to bring student
researchers in, as well, and have them sit down with me and talk, in plain
language, about ‑‑ What are you doing? What will this do for farmers? What will it do for the regular consumer?
4728 The university is
developing car parts made out of soybean, something that every one of us will
use at one point.
4729 The Escape that we
just got has foam seats made out of soybeans, all coming from the University of
Guelph.
4730 So we will use
"Farm Out" as a tool for that, and then, also, all of the farm
organizations ‑‑ there are hundreds of farm organizations in
the country, and a lot of them have their headquarters based in Guelph. We can use them, as well, to tie in that
whole agricultural relationship, using "Farm Out", and then,
obviously, using me as a resource to get those connections into the general
news.
4731 COMMISSIONER
SIMPSON: Thank you.
4732 Now, if we could
just figure out how to make soybeans out of car parts, we would have the
problem solved.
--- Laughter / Rires
4733 COMMISSIONER
SIMPSON: As promised, I started off
extremely wide, and I am down to my last question, which is a detail question
to do with Canadian Content Development.
4734 With respect to
the "Battle of the Bands" project, I believe there was a proposal
that involved recording studio time as part of the prize package for the
winning band.
4735 Is that correct?
4736 MR. WEESE: Yes.
4737 Walter Ploegman is
our CCD steward. He is sitting right
behind me, and he can provide you with a much better answer.
4738 COMMISSIONER
SIMPSON: If I may, Walter, my question
is specific to the use of the facilities.
Is the intent to make money available for the winner to record at a
recording studio other than your own facilities, or were you planning on using
your facilities?
4739 MR. W.
PLOEGMAN: This would be for the artist
to receive funds to get a recording done.
This is not anything to do with our studio facilities.
4740 COMMISSIONER
SIMPSON: I had a very specific question,
and I thank you.
4741 Anyone else?
4742 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr.
Simpson. Those are our questions, and
legal counsel will conclude.
4743 MR. McINTYRE: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
4744 Just one question,
to follow up on Commissioner Simpson's question relating to emerging
artists. Maybe you could state your
position on the possibility of a COL relating to the percentage of programming
for emerging artists.
4745 MR. WEESE: Is the question, would we consider a
percentage on emerging artists, the 5 percent?
4746 MR. McINTYRE: Yes.
4747 MR. WEESE: Yes, we would.
4748 MR. McINTYRE: Thank you.
That was my only question.
4749 Just to read it
into the record, there is an undertaking to provide updated financial
confirmation for October 30th.
4750 MR. WEESE: We will do that.
4751 MR. McINTYRE: Thank you.
4752 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Ladies and gentlemen, thank
you very much for your presentation.
4753 We will take a
10-minute break, and resume at 10 past 3.
4754 Thank you.
4755 MR. WEESE: Thank you.
--- Upon recessing at 1500 /
Suspension à 1500
--- Upon resuming at 1515 / Reprise
à 1515
4756 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Order, please.
4757 Madam Secretary.
4758 THE
SECRETARY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We will now proceed with Item 12, an
application by 591989 B.C. Ltd. to convert the English‑language
commercial radio station CJOY Guelph from the AM band to the FM band.
4759 The new station
would operate on Frequency 95.7, Channel 239B, with an average effective
radiated power of 11,000 watts, maximum effective radiated power of 30,000
watts, with an effective height of antenna above average terrain of 53.7
metres.
4760 Appearing for the
Applicant is Chris Pandoff.
4761 Please introduce
your colleagues. Then you will have 20
minutes to make your presentation.
PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
4762 MR. PANDOFF: Thank you.
Good afternoon, Mr. Chair, Commissioners, and Commission staff. My name is Chris Pandoff, and I am Vice‑President
of Radio for Corus Radio Ontario.
4763 To my right today
is Cheryl Bechtel, Vice‑President and Comptroller for Corus Radio, and to
my left, Guus Hazelaar, General Manager for Guelph. Guus has been the General Manager of the
station for 14 years, and is a long‑time resident, who attended the
University of Guelph.
4764 We won't ask Guus
to tell us when he graduated, but suffice it to say that he knows the market
like no one else in this particular hearing room.
4765 To Guus' left we
have Jack Hoepnner, who is the National Director for Engineering for Corus
Radio.
4766 I should also
mention that John Cassaday, who recently assumed operating responsibility for
Corus Radio, did want to appear with us today in support of this particular
application. Unfortunately, he is unable
to do so because of the Corus Board meetings which are taking place this week.
4767 As the Commission
is well aware, Corus Entertainment is a company which is publicly traded on
both the Toronto and New York stock exchanges.
As such, the dates for our Board meetings are set more than a year in
advance.
4768 In addition, this
particular Board meeting is being held to deal with our company's year end.
4769 Mr. Cassaday sends
his regrets.
4770 Mr. Chair and
Commissioners, we are delighted to present this application to convert CJOY
Guelph to the FM band.
4771 This is not an
application for a new radio station, but simply to continue a longstanding
service to the community.
4772 CJOY went on the
air in 1948 as Guelph's first homegrown radio station. It remains to this day the only commercial AM
station licensed to serve Guelph.
4773 For the past 60
years, CJOY has been the voice of Guelph, with a focus on local reflection and
outstanding service to the community. It
is a distinguished heritage that Corus Radio is very proud of.
4774 We intend to
continue building on CJOY's record of community service, but to do so requires
that we take steps to remain competitive in today's communications environment.
4775 Conversion to the
FM band is the key to ensuring that CJOY can maintain its central role in
serving the residents of Guelph.
4776 What are the factors
that led us to conclude that CJOY must move to the FM band in order to remain
competitive?
4777 We submit that
there are five key points to consider.
4778 First, as the
Commission is well aware, there is a general trend of tuning away from the AM
band to the FM band. The Commission's
2008 Communications Monitoring Report shows that, in an average week, the
tuning share of Canadian AM radio has steadily declined from over 28 percent in
1999 to just 20 percent in 2007.
4779 The tuning share
of FM, on the other hand, increased from 66 percent to 73.5 percent over the
same period.
4780 Moving to the FM
band will give CJOY the platform it needs to attract new listeners not
presently tuning to the AM band, while sustaining its current AM radio
audience.
4781 Second, and of
critical importance to understanding the dynamics of the Guelph radio market,
is the reality that CJOY must compete against more than 40 out‑of‑market
radio stations that achieve a measurable tuning in Guelph.
4782 According to the
Fall 2007 BBM survey, CJOY garnered a 7.8 percent share of the Guelph radio
audience. Contrast this to the fact that
over 80 percent of Guelph listening is captured by out‑of‑market
stations, more than 30 of which are broadcast on the FM band.
4783 It is imperative
that CJOY establish its own presence on the FM band, so that it can properly
compete with the cumulative impact of tuning to these out‑of‑market
radio stations.
4784 More importantly,
CJOY has a very long history of serving the Guelph community by providing a
comprehensive news and information service, being the go-to source for
community events, and, of course, being the lifeline during emergencies and in
times of crisis. In order to preserve
and continue the station's exemplary community service, it is critical that the
conversion to the FM band be authorized.
4785 Third, as shown in
the financial projections that we filed with our application, continuing
operation on the AM band is not a viable option from an economic point of
view. We project that continuing the
status quo as an AM station would result in a negative net income situation,
starting in the current fiscal year, with increasing losses in subsequent
years.
4786 This represents a
continuation of the downward revenue and profitability trends that have been
apparent over the past several years.
4787 Conversion to the
FM band would give us an opportunity to increase revenues and reverse these
trends, thereby ensuring CJOY's long‑term survival in the Guelph market.
4788 Fourth, we filed
this application to convert CJOY to the FM band in response to the Commission's
call for applications for new commercial radio stations to serve Guelph. The expectation that the Commission will
license one or more new radio stations on the FM band in Guelph as a result of
the present process further highlights the urgency of converting CJOY to the FM
band at this time.
4789 The fifth factor
is that our proposal represents a very efficient use of the FM spectrum that
only Corus can offer.
4790 MR. HAZELAAR: The City of Guelph is part of a highly
concentrated region that starts in the western suburbs of metropolitan Toronto
and ends outside of London. This region
has an expanding population, and the so‑called Golden Horseshoe area is
the centre of a large segment of Canada's population and economic base.
4791 The region is
bisected, roughly, by the Niagara Escarpment, which creates a natural barrier
between cities such as Hamilton and Brantford in the south, and Kitchener and
Guelph to the northwest.
4792 One of the
consequences of the escarpment is the differences in weather. It can be snowing on one side, not on the
other.
4793 It is geography,
industrial development and educational institutions that have fostered the
distinctiveness of the market such as Guelph.
We have a major university, major industries, and also a unique history
to the cities around us.
4794 Our plan to
convert to FM is to ensure competitive parity with any new entrants who may be
licensed in Guelph. CJOY must not be
isolated as the only commercial AM station in the market.
4795 With regard to
CJOY's programming plans as an FM station, Corus Radio will keep its current
oldies format. The greatest hits of the
Royal City will continue to offer musical selections of the seventies and eighties.
4796 As such, we are
requesting that the current Condition of Licence that grants CJOY an exception
to the percentage of Canadian content, otherwise required under the Radio
Regulations, be included in the new FM licence.
4797 CJOY is the
community's lifeline to information.
CJOY will continue to broadcast its current high level of news and
information programming. We broadcast
109 locally produced newscasts and 53 locally produced sportscasts each week,
and these will be maintained.
4798 We will continue
our strong emphasis on local weather information and developments, given the
wide variations experienced in the region's weather, and we will continue to
broadcast all home and away games of the Guelph Storm Junior "A"
Hockey Team.
4799 Furthermore,
conversion to the FM band will allow us not only to maintain, but to increase
the resources dedicated to local reflection.
Specifically, we will be able to hire an additional announcer, and pay
half the salary of a new staff position for promotions.
4800 The latter
position would be shared with our sister station in Guelph, CIMJ‑FM.
4801 MS BECHTEL: Corus Radio is particularly proud of CJOY's
outstanding track record, established over 60 years of strong community
involvement, and support for local organizations and events. Our focus on the promotion and coverage of a
multitude of community events, meetings and charitable activities will continue
with the conversion to the FM band.
4802 A few examples of
our support for the local community illustrate our commitment to promoting
Guelph as a great place to live, work and play.
4803 CJOY is a platinum
sponsor of the Guelph YM‑YWCA "Women of Distinction" event, as
well as the platinum sponsor of the Guelph "Quality Awards", an
annual event honouring contributions by individuals and businesses in the city.
4804 CJOY sponsors the
annual Poor Boys' Luncheon, raising funds for ARC Industries, an organization
which provides meaningful employment to local residents with developmental
disabilities.
4805 CJOY is a primary
sponsor of Guelph's Firefighters' Annual Fifties and Sixties Dance, held to
raise money for charity.
4806 Each hour, Monday
to Friday, from 6 a.m. to midnight, CJOY broadcasts "Community
Calendar" announcements to raise community awareness about forthcoming
events. This amounts to some 100
regularly scheduled community event announcements each week.
4807 Finally, CJOY
provides a significant number of PSAs and on-air interview opportunities for a
number of local organizations to promote their activities, community goals and
fundraising initiatives. Between March
2007 and February 2008, CJOY donated airtime valued at approximately $210,000
for PSAs of this nature.
4808 MR. HAZELAAR: Clear evidence of our solid track record of
community involvement has been demonstrated by the 30 interventions we have
received in support of this application.
The intervenors include the Mayor of the City of Guelph, and a wide
variety of community organizations.
4809 Corus Radio is
delighted with these supporting interventions.
They represent tangible recognition of CJOY's support for the
community. They confirm the commitment
we have to the City of Guelph, a level of commitment that will only be enhanced
with the conversion of CJOY to the FM band.
4810 In addition to our
continuing emphasis on local reflection and community involvement in Guelph,
approval of this application will allow us to take the additional measures to
further benefit the community.
4811 Specifically, we
will increase our CCD contributions over and above the required basic amount by
$10,000 per year, for a total investment of $70,000 over the seven-year licence
term.
4812 Eighty percent of
this increased CCD contribution will be directed to the Kiwanis Music Festival
of Guelph, an annual showcase of young talent that we currently support with a
portion of our basic CCD contributions.
4813 The additional
contributions that we propose will provide monetary awards for festival
winners, sponsorship moneys for the festival concert, and support for the festival
endowment fund, to ensure the ongoing viability of the event.
4814 The balance of the
CCD over and above contribution will be directed to FACTOR.
4815 In a broader
sense, CJOY has always taken a special interest in promoting both the
importance of music and music participation to the young people of Guelph.
4816 For example, CJOY
works with two separate organizations, the Edward Johnson Music Foundation and
the Guelph Youth Music Centre, on their individual campaigns, providing support
through regularly scheduled, fully produced PSAs, valued at $35,000.
4817 These important
investments by CJOY demonstrate the significant contribution to both music and
the community that this station has made over the years.
4818 MR. PANDOFF: Turning to the technical details of our
application, we believe that our proposal for the conversion of CJOY to the FM
band is innovative and an efficient use of spectrum usage from a point of
view. It makes use of the Frequency 95.7
MHz, which is not otherwise available to any other applicant other than Corus
Radio. This is because the use of this
particular frequency in Guelph causes significant short-spacing concerns with a
number of stations, including Corus‑owned radio stations.
4819 However, Corus
Radio has been able to successfully deal with these short‑spacing
concerns, and, more importantly, 95.7 MHz is the only FM frequency that allows
CJOY to replicate its existing AM coverage in the market.
4820 Our proposal to
use 95.7 is, therefore, a win‑win situation. We achieve our coverage objective of
substantially duplicating the coverage of CJOY's existing AM operation,
something that is not feasible with any other frequency. At the same time, approval of our application
has no impact on the ability of the Commission to approve a new service on
101.5 MHz, as our proposal is not technically mutually exclusive with any other
applicant.
4821 In these
circumstances, the Commission can examine our application for CJOY and take a
decision on its merits, since there are no negative implications with respect
to the licensing of any other applicant.
4822 First, and perhaps
most importantly, we submit that the residents of Guelph will be the ultimate
beneficiaries of our innovative proposal.
They will be assured of continued access to a local radio station
focused on the community. They will
benefit from our enhanced level of service and CCD contributions, and all
without any technical limitation on the ability of the Commission to license a
new entrant as it sees fit.
4823 Mr. Chair and
Commissioners, that completes our presentation.
We are convinced that the merits of our application fully justify
approval of the conversion of CJOY to the FM band. Our plan is good for the community, it is
good for radio, it is an efficient use of spectrum, and, hence, in the public
interest.
4824 Thank you for your
attention. We would be pleased to answer
any questions.
4825 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr.
Pandoff.
4826 I would ask
Commissioner Cugini to start the questioning.
4827 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Thank you.
4828 Good afternoon,
Mr. Pandoff, and to your colleagues. I
am glad to see that your oral presentation touched upon the four areas of your
application that I would particularly like to speak to you about this
afternoon. They are: the exception to the Common Ownership Policy,
your format, your spoken word commitment, and finally, your business plan.
4829 We know that in
the Guelph market, currently, your signals from Hamilton and Cambridge are well
received in this market. In fact, we do
have a share of tuning from the Guelph market to those radio stations.
4830 Now, in your oral
presentation you said that we should continue the exception to the Common
Ownership Policy, but some would characterize it as being completely exempt
from the Common Ownership Policy.
4831 Would you care to
comment?
4832 MR. PANDOFF: Sure.
In fact, it is certainly an important question and a very complex
question.
4833 I do have a
statement, and because the response is quite detailed, we have taken the
liberty of providing the Hearing Secretary with a written copy of the response,
along with a map that shows the coverage contours of our stations in the Guelph
area.
4834 With your
agreement, I would request that the Secretary provide you with the written copy
of the response and the coverage map at this time.
4835 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: There is no executive summary?
--- Laughter / Rires
4836 MR. PANDOFF: No.
Actually, I am going to read all five pages.
4837 Corus understands
that the question as to whether or not the CJOY application complies with the
Common Ownership Policy has been raised because the following four Corus‑owned
stations have a 3 millivolt contour in the vicinity of Guelph: our existing station CIMJ‑FM, and our
new CJOY‑FM, both licensed to serve Guelph, plus two other Corus stations
in nearby markets, CJDV‑FM in Cambridge, and CING in Hamilton.
4838 Our response to
this question has two parts. One, we
fundamentally believe that our application to convert CJOY to the FM band
complies with the ownership policy as it pertains to Guelph.
4839 Two, even if the
Commission should conclude that an exception to the Common Ownership Policy is
required in order to approve the conversion of CJOY to the FM band, the unique
circumstances of this application fully justify such an exception.
4840 In this context we
firmly believe that approval would not result in a precedent that would open
the door to exceptions in other markets.
4841 Let me explain the
first part of our response concerning the applicability of the Common Ownership
Policy in Guelph.
4842 This policy states
that: "In markets with less than
eight commercial stations operating in a given language, a person may be
permitted to own or control as many as three stations operating in that language,
with a maximum of two stations in any one frequency band."
4843 Under the
Commission's Radio Regulations the term "market" is defined as
follows:
"In the case of an FM station,
the FM 3 millivolt contour or the central area, as defined by the Bureau of
Broadcast Measurement, whichever is smaller."
4844 Of the four
stations that I just mentioned, only two are in fact licensed as Guelph
stations: CIMJ-FM and CJOY.
4845 The other two
stations are licensed to serve nearby markets, Hamilton and Cambridge, but they
are potentially captured under the policy because they both place a 3 millivolt
contour into the Guelph area.
4846 We believe that
there are a number of relevant factors to consider in analyzing this situation
in more detail.
4847 First of all,
Guelph is part of the Golden Horseshoe area of southern Ontario, an area that
extends from Oshawa, around Lake Ontario, to Niagara Falls. It is the single most densely populated
region in all of Canada, with just over 25 percent of Canada's entire population,
and 75 percent of the Ontario population.
4848 In such an urban
agglomeration, individual markets are inevitably located in very close
proximity to one another. This makes it
almost impossible from a technical point of view for a given station to
properly serve its own market without its signal spilling into neighbouring
markets.
4849 We have already
referred to the fact that there are over 40 out-of-market stations that achieve
a measurable share of listening audience in Guelph due to this factor.
4850 In that
environment, then, let's look at the Corus station in Cambridge, CJDV‑FM.
4851 Cambridge is part
of the Kitchener‑Waterloo central BBM market area. Similarly, Guelph and Hamilton each have
their own respective central BBM market areas.
4852 At the time Corus
had acquired CKBT‑FM in Kitchener, along with CJZZ‑FM in Winnipeg,
from Canwest, the Commission noted that:
"CKBT and CJZZ could now benefit from synergies available through
other Corus stations currently operating in the Cambridge and Winnipeg
markets."
4853 This is from
Broadcast Decision 2007‑215.
4854 When Canwest was
originally approved for CKBT‑FM in Decision 2003‑152, the
Commission noted that: "Five
commercial radio stations currently serve the Kitchener‑Waterloo
area. As mentioned above, Rogers
operates two of these stations. Of the
others, two are licensed to CHUM Limited, and one is owned by Corus
Entertainment."
4855 The point is
simply this, that the Commission has always considered that CJDV‑FM
serves the Kitchener‑Waterloo market and not the Guelph market.
4856 We would also like
to correct an error in the coverage map that the Commission sent to Corus in a
letter dated October 16th, when it raised the possibility of a common ownership
issue in Guelph.
4857 The location of
CJDV's FM 3 millivolt contour, as shown on the Commission's map, is
incorrect. It appears that the contour
for CJDV used by the Commission staff is a proposed contour that had been
included in a previous application to increase the power of CJDV‑FM. However, this power increase was subsequently
denied by the Commission in Decision 2006‑261.
4858 The correct
contour for CJDV is included in the map prepared by our engineering
consultants, D.E.M. Allen & Associates, which we have provided with the
written copy of this response.
4859 As you can see
from the map, the 3 millivolt contour does not extend into the City of
Guelph. It does overlap a small portion
of the BBM‑defined Guelph market area, but only in the southwest corner,
and outside of the City of Guelph.
4860 To summarize, CJDV‑FM
is licensed to serve Kitchener‑Waterloo, it's 3 millivolt contour does
not reach the City of Guelph, and there is only minimal overlap with the
broader Guelph market, as defined by BBM.
4861 Both Guelph and
Kitchener‑Waterloo have defined and separate BBM markets.
4862 Further, the
Commission has also identified which stations operate in these defined markets,
and CJDV only operates in one defined BBM market, namely, Kitchener‑Waterloo.
4863 Accordingly, Corus
firmly believes that the Commission should not consider CJDV as operating in
the Guelph market for the purposes of applying its Common Ownership Policy.
4864 Turning now to
CING‑FM in Hamilton, the Commission itself made a very relevant
determination in its Decision 2000‑222, which approved the acquisition by
Corus of WIC Premium Corporation and, among other holdings, WIC Radio's
holdings, including CING‑FM.
4865 During the hearing
of that application, an intervenor raised an issue related to the ownership of
CING by Corus and potential non‑compliance with the Common Ownership
Policy in Toronto. The Commission's
assessment of this issue included the following statement at paragraph 18 of
the decision:
"Even though a portion of
CING's audience is in Toronto, it is treated as a Hamilton‑Burlington
station by the Bureau of Broadcast Measurement.
More importantly, in the Commission's view, CING‑FM is licensed as
a Burlington station and is appropriately considered as such for the purposes
of the policy (i.e., the Common Ownership Policy noted above)."
4866 Moreover, at
paragraph 16 of the same decision, the Commission confirmed that the WIC
transaction was fully consistent with the Common Ownership Policy.
4867 Since the time of
that decision CING‑FM has undergone a technical amendment and is now
licensed as a Hamilton station, but we submit that the fundamental principle
remains valid, and that is to say that CING‑FM is licensed as a Hamilton
station. It should not be considered as
a station serving Guelph for the purpose of applying the Common Ownership
Policy in Guelph.
4868 Concerning the
actual coverage of the station, the map provided by Commission staff shows that
CING's theoretical 3 millivolt contour passes roughly through the centre of the
City of Guelph, and encompasses about half of the Guelph central market, as
defined by BBM.
4869 The
"Predict" estimate for CING‑FM is included on the map we have
provided. It shows that the realistic
coverage of CING, in fact, falls short of the City of Guelph, although it does
continue to overlap to a certain degree with the southern part of the broader
BBM‑defined market area.
4870 Our engineering
consultants looked into the possibility of amending CING's technical parameters
to further reduce its coverage in the direction of Guelph to eliminate any
lingering concern that it might be able to serve the Guelph market. Unfortunately, such a technical revision is
not feasible, since it would compromise CING's coverage of its own market.
4871 Nevertheless,
given the Commission's own policy determination in 2000 that CING should be
seen as serving only its licensed market, not adjacent markets, and taking into
account a realistic assessment of the station's actual coverage in the Guelph
market, Corus submits that CING Hamilton would also not be considered as
serving the Guelph market for the purposes of applying the Common Ownership
Policy.
4872 Corus has been
operating CJOY and CIMJ in Guelph, plus the two other stations we have just
discussed, since our acquisition of WIC in 2000. If there was an issue with the Common
Ownership Policy which would otherwise allow Corus to operate a maximum of
three stations serving the Guelph market, not four, it would have been raised
at that time.
4873 The fact that the
Commission confirmed in Decision 2000‑222 that there were no issues with
compliance with the Common Ownership Policy at that time is a strong indicator
that there is no issue with the switch of CJOY to the FM band today.
4874 Taking all of
these factors into account, we believe that the conclusion to the first part of
our response is clear: the switch of
CJOY to the FM band raises no issues with respect to our compliance with the
Common Ownership Policy in Guelph.
4875 Turning now to
Part 2 of our response, we acknowledge that, notwithstanding the rationale we
have just outlined, the Commission could, nevertheless, conclude that the radio
Common Ownership Policy does come into play in Guelph with this particular
application.
4876 If so, then we
would submit that an exception to the policy is fully justified, based on the
unique and compelling circumstances of the application.
4877 In this context,
it is important, first, for all of us to understand that the Common Ownership
Policy was put in place in 1998 to provide safeguards in respect of two very
important underlying issues, namely, preserving the availability of distinct
news voices in a community, and maintaining an appropriate level of competition
within a market.
4878 We are convinced
that the approval of this application has zero negative impact in either of
these underlying concerns.
4879 Let us look at the
facts.
4880 CJOY is an
existing station in the Guelph market, competing with more than 40 out‑of‑market
stations for an audience.
4881 We have outlined
our rationale for switching to FM, but the key point for the purpose of this
discussion is that we are able to use a frequency that cannot be used by any
other applicant.
4882 Approval of the
CJOY application in no way compromises the ability of the Commission to license
one or more new entrants to serve Guelph, providing additional diversity of
local voices over and above the numerous out‑of‑market stations
that already exist.
4883 In summary,
approval of the CJOY conversion to FM does not reduce existing diversity of
voices, nor does it limit, in any way, a potential increase of diversity
through the licensing of other applicants.
4884 Similarly, with
respect to the potential impact on the level of competition within the market,
approval of this application has no impact.
4885 The station
already exists, it is only switching frequency bands. The fact that it is using a frequency that
cannot be used by any other applicant means that the ability of the Commission
to increase competition in Guelph through the licensing of one or more new
entrants is not compromised.
4886 Finally, we still
have the reality of 80 percent of the audience share in Guelph going to out‑of‑market
stations.
4887 For these reasons,
we submit that the underlying concerns of the Common Ownership Policy, namely,
diversity of voices and maintenance of the competitive market, are not affected
in any way by the approval of CJOY conversion to the FM band.
4888 In other words,
applying a rigid interpretation to the policy and denying CJOY the application
for that reason would achieve no public policy purpose.
4889 On the other hand,
we strongly believe that there is a very compelling public policy reason why
the approval of CJOY's switch to FM is fully justified, even if the Commission
concludes that to do so would necessitate an exception to the Common Ownership
Policy.
4890 Simply put, the
long‑term viability of CJOY is at stake.
We have detailed this in our written application and in our opening
remarks, but it bears repeating: Given
the competitive realities of the Guelph market, the general shift in tuning
from AM to FM, and the likelihood of the Commission licensing one or more new
entrants in Guelph on the FM band, we are convinced that CJOY must move to the
FM band to ensure its survival.
4891 The financial
projections that we filed with our application show that, if CJOY is forced to
continue operation as an AM station, it will be in a loss position starting in
2009, with increasing losses, year over year, after that.
4892 In total, we
project cumulative losses ‑‑ after tax losses ‑‑
of $877,000 over the next seven years under the status quo scenario.
4893 Moreover, it
should be emphasized that these AM projections have not factored in the
financial consequences resulting from the potential licensing of a new entrant
in Guelph.
4894 If the Commission
licences a new competitor in Guelph, while denying CJOY's conversion to the FM
band, then losses going forward will be even higher than the forecast in our
application, and the viability of CJOY will be placed in jeopardy even sooner.
4895 We believe that it
is in no one's interest to allow a situation to develop that would allow a
heritage station such as CJOY, a station that has served the Guelph market with
distinction for over 60 years, to simply wither away, yet that is exactly the
prospect that we face in this application if it is denied.
4896 We strongly
believe that when one considers all of the relevant factors of the Guelph
market and this application, the need to ensure the long‑term viability
of a heritage station provides a compelling public interest rationale that
outweighs the need for technical compliance with the Common Ownership Policy,
particularly when there is no impact on the underlying issues associated with
that policy.
4897 The narrow set of
circumstances that would be inherent in such an approval, the need to preserve
the viability of a heritage AM station, the simple conversion of an existing AM
station to the FM band, the use of a frequency that no other applicant can use,
the absence of any impact on the potential licensing of new entrants, the
absence of any impact on diversity of voices, and the absence of any impact on
competition in the market means that the approval of this application, even if
it requires an exception to the Common Ownership Policy, will not serve as a
broad precedent for exceptions to the Common Ownership Policy in other
situations.
4898 That completes our
response to this issue. We thank you for
the opportunity to respond in detail.
4899 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr.
Pandoff.
4900 Obviously, what
you are asking for here ‑‑ and you have clearly stated
it ‑‑ is a revision of the Common Ownership Policy. This is a decision that has to be made by the
full Commission. We, as a panel, cannot
adjudicate on your request, the way you have introduced it.
4901 We appreciate that
you have done it for the record, but we would surely have to go to another type
of process, if, at the end of the day, we were to conclude that a need to
review the Common Ownership Policy was warranted.
4902 MR. PANDOFF: I understand.
4903 THE
CHAIRPERSON: All right. I will return the floor to Commissioner
Cugini.
4904 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Thank you. I can see why you didn't include that
response in your oral presentation.
--- Laughter / Rires
4905 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Just to close the circle, I am
going to ask you a couple of more questions.
4906 Do either CING or
CJDV, or both, program to the Guelph market, and do they garner any revenue
from the market?
4907 MR. PANDOFF: Neither of them program directly at the
market. Each of those two stations,
respectively, concentrates on their local markets.
4908 There are
advertisers who do advertise on either of the two stations, but who are looking
for the opportunity to attract audience either from their market into Guelph,
or, in the case of Country 95, CING, it would be category‑specific
advertisers, who are looking to buy a country station. The only one available is the one in
Hamilton, or the one in Kitchener owned by Rogers.
4909 So with the
exception of, literally, a handful of advertisers, we really do not, or cannot
monetize the spill that goes into that market.
4910 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Thank you. Like I say, it was just to complete that
circle.
4911 MR. PANDOFF: Sure.
4912 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: We will move on to programming,
which will include both the format and the spoken word.
4913 I do note that
throughout your application, and this afternoon, you repeated that you are
going to stay with the oldies format.
Will that be true regardless of what else we license, if we do license
something else for the Guelph market?
4914 You know what the
other applicants have proposed. Both the
blues application, as well as the classic rock application could eat some of
your lunch, or maybe you don't think they will.
4915 I just want your
reaction to the question.
4916 MR. PANDOFF: Competition, certainly, is a way of life for
all of us in the radio industry, and we do have, by most measures, as an AM
music station, a successful operation, albeit it is moving toward a negative
cash flow position.
4917 As a result of
that, we have what we feel to be a really strong core group of audience, and a
terrific brand in the market, to be able to convert to the FM band. So we are really not approaching this from
the standpoint of a competitive decision between either another applicant or
ourselves, it is more the long‑term survival of an AM station to
gravitate to the FM band.
4918 I don't know if
there is anything that Guus would want to add to that.
4919 MR. HAZELAAR: No, I believe that would sum it up,
really. We are simply looking to take
the format we currently have and put it on the FM band. We feel it is a strong format in the
marketplace. We do feel that we have
done very well with it on the AM band, but we are seeing the declines that
Chris has mentioned.
4920 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: So you don't anticipate adding
artists to your playlist who currently aren't there, or decreasing the amount
of spoken word programming that is on your AM station for an FM audience?
4921 There is
nothing ‑‑ no tweaking like that in your plans?
4922 MR. HAZELAAR: No, we don't plan to do that at all. As a matter of fact, the figures that we have
given you are very much the figures that we currently produce on our AM
station.
4923 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: So the level of spoken word
programming that you have committed to is a reflection of what you are
currently ‑‑ is a mirror of what you are currently doing on
your AM station.
4924 MR. HAZELAAR: Yes.
4925 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: By the same token, therefore,
there won't be an increase of spoken word programming if the conversion to FM
is approved.
4926 MR. HAZELAAR: We don't plan to have an increase in spoken
word. The area that does not show up,
necessarily, in this item is the fact that we do 68 home and away games for the
Guelph Storm Hockey Team, and that amounts to 187 hours for a season. We would like to go longer if we hit the
playoffs a couple of times, but that basically is the season we look at.
4927 MR. PANDOFF: If I could add something to that, that is
typically not the case for FM music stations.
They tend to stay away from play‑by‑play. But because this station was sort of founded
in being a highly locally focused station, carrying play‑by‑play
for the Guelph Storm, particularly with that audience, is a good thing to
continue to do.
4928 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: By the same token, your
commitment of 60 hours of live‑to‑air programming, and 66 hours of
automated programming, that is what you currently provide on the AM station?
4929 MR. HAZELAAR: That is what we currently provide, yes.
4930 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: And will continue to do so ‑‑
4931 MR. HAZELAAR: And we will continue to do so.
4932 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: -- on FM.
4933 In your oral
presentation you said that "it will allow us not only to maintain, but to
increase the resources dedicated to local reflection," and that you will
hire an additional announcer and pay half of the salary of a new staff position
for promotions.
4934 Is that the only
measure of incrementality?
4935 MR. PANDOFF: In terms of ‑‑
4936 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: In terms of the conversion from
AM to FM.
4937 Or, would you have
to do this even if you stayed on AM?
4938 MR. PANDOFF: No.
Usually what happens is the reverse, the more mature a station becomes
on the AM band, the less live programming and the fewer people that populate
it.
4939 So, in fact, what
going to the FM band allows us to do is increase the employed population on the
station by turning around the financial returns on the radio station.
4940 In terms of live‑to‑tape
programming, or voicetracking, conceivably, down the road, as the station puts
itself back into ‑‑ reaching to a younger audience, and
competing effectively with the FMs, we would probably add more live
programming.
4941 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: In terms of the average
listener, what are the changes they are going to be able to hear, once the
conversion is complete?
4942 MR. PANDOFF: Other than the sound quality on FM, virtually
none.
4943 We are going to
add a few more eighties songs to round out the gold, but in terms of the
announcer staff ‑‑ Guus ‑‑ most of the people
who have been there will continue to stay.
4944 MR. HAZELAAR: We have a longstanding staff with the
station. Our morning show host has been
there 20 years. Our News Director has
been there 34 years. Our afternoon drive
person has been there 20 years, plus another stint seven years earlier. And our midday announcer has been with this
company, in various capacities, for about 27 years, as well.
4945 We don't plan on
changing them. We feel that we have a
very strong programming element to give to the community, and we don't really
plan on changing any of that.
4946 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Again this afternoon you said
that our own communications monitoring report shows that, in an average week,
the tuning share of Canadian AM radio has steadily declined from 28 percent in
1999 to just over 20 percent in 2007.
4947 But when I look at
your audience share projections ‑‑ you give us your actual
audience share from 2001 to 2007, and then your forecast ‑‑
there is not much difference.
4948 MR. PANDOFF: Actually, CJOY has been able to ‑‑
verses other comparable AMs across the country, has been able to hold its
audience decline at a slower rate than, typically, AM stations across the
country.
4949 I think the hidden
danger in what you are looking at in terms of raw numbers is the continual
greying of the audience outside of demographics that allow us to monetize the
radio station.
4950 If you look at the
composition of that audience on the AM band, there is a much higher percentage
of people who are retired, and aging, outside of the traditional 25 to 65
demographic.
4951 That is the real
hidden danger behind it.
4952 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: If I am hearing you correctly, although you
had an 8 percent share in 2007, going forward, for the next seven years, you
are not convinced that you can maintain that?
4953 MR. PANDOFF: On the AM band?
4954 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Yes.
4955 MR. PANDOFF: No.
4956 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: By how much do you think it
might decline?
4957 Would it decline
at the same levels as the average, do you think, or higher?
4958 MR. PANDOFF: Probably at a faster rate versus the last
five years of the station's history on five years going forward. It, at some point, will catch the national
average of decline, as the population ages and fewer younger people go onto the
AM band.
4959 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: When I look at your financial
projections, they do paint a rather grim picture, but one thing I want to
understand is ‑‑ your total operating expenses would increase
by 14.5 percent over seven years, and your revenue would increase by 51.6
percent. Is that typical for AM to FM
conversions?
4960 MR. PANDOFF: Our company hasn't had a five‑year
window in which we have converted a music AM to a music FM to be able to
provide definitive data. The
expectation, though, is that comparable FMs, and the amount of FMs that we do
operate around the country, have been growing in the last five years at that
particular rate, especially if they provide a really strong programming format
that the audience responds to.
4961 All things being
equal, the correlation between audience size, ratings ‑‑
however you determine that ‑‑ and revenue is more than a 1:1,
and it is clear that moving to the FM band ‑‑ when you look at
all of the stations across the country, the FMs, by and large, are more
successful. There is more audience to
capture share already on the FM band.
4962 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: My extremely learned and experienced
colleague Mr. Arpin always says that it is much more expensive to operate an AM
station than it is an FM station.
4963 MR. PANDOFF: True.
4964 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: So why the increase of almost 15
percent in your operating expenses? What
factors did you take into consideration in coming up with those numbers?
4965 MR. HAZELAAR: There are a few elements that we have
involved in the increase in expenses, some coming from programming, in terms of
the additional people that we would be hiring.
They would play a role in the increased expenses.
4966 In terms of
revenues, we would also show some increase in copyright fees, and the normal
things that are associated with sales.
4967 We are proposing a
somewhat more aggressive promotion operation within the marketplace.
4968 There are some
natural increases that would flow. There
are normal pay increases that would flow to the staff of the station.
4969 Those are areas
that would create some increases for us in the expense area.
4970 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: One of the things I didn't
calculate last night ‑‑ is the ratio between national and
local expected to stay the same, in terms of advertising revenues?
4971 MR. HAZELAAR: Yes, I would think that it is going to be
relatively close.
4972 National
fluctuates significantly. We have no way
of controlling national dollars. We do
some history tracking on it, but it is something that is basically out of our
control, as opposed to the local dollars and the ratios.
4973 They should stay
relatively the same.
4974 CJOY's national
revenues, of course, have been lower than our FM, for example, but I would say
that what you would see on a regular national basis across Ontario, or parts of
southern Ontario, should be reflected on the CJOY numbers, as well.
4975 MR. PANDOFF: The one thing I would add to that,
Commissioner Cugini, is that ‑‑ we talked about the spill of
other stations into the market. What
advertisers are increasingly trying to do is to capture the exposure they get
from non‑originating signals into other markets to save money in those
markets.
4976 It happens more
often in large transactional advertisers, mostly at the national level.
4977 So, if anything, a
non‑metro market is at the risk of having its national decline as
advertisers try to get more out of their budgets.
4978 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Thank you.
4979 As experienced
operators in the Guelph market, if we were to approve your conversion, how many
other licences do you think the Guelph market could sustain?
4980 MR. PANDOFF: As I said earlier, we are here, really, to
appeal to the Commission with regard to the continuation of an AM station's
future. Whatever the Commission would
decide, we are not prepared to make an opinion on that at this point.
4981 We do recognize
that it was important that we had the opportunity to present.
4982 The one thing I
would say is that, were you to grant us the change and license two other
applicants in the market, essentially we would have four FMs in the market, and
the one thing I would remind you of is that the radio revenue in this market is
just under $4 million. So those four
radio stations would compete for that pool of dollars.
4983 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Thank you very much for your
presentation this afternoon.
4984 Mr. Chairman,
those are my questions.
4985 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much,
Commissioner Cugini.
4986 I don't know if
you had a chance to look at other applications.
While they do recognize that ‑‑ at least one of them
made the statement that it is just under $4 million, they are making the
assumption that the total market value is closer to $6 million. So there is money in the market that is still
untapped.
4987 I apologize to the
Manager of CJOY. I am telling his boss
that there is still money left in the market, and he hasn't solicited it.
--- Laughter / Rires
4988 MR. HAZELAAR: We're missing something, are we? Okay.
4989 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Here, I have a list.
--- Laughter / Rires
4990 THE
CHAIRPERSON: How much, do you think, is
the Guelph market capacity regarding available dollars for radio advertising?
4991 MR. PANDOFF: Certainly, when you contrast this market and
you look at its population size relative to other markets, even in Ontario,
quite often the number of broadcasters has an impact, in terms of the overall
radio revenue, because you have people out developing business.
4992 What we don't know
is, we don't have anecdotal or even specific data on where that extra $2
million would come from. Perhaps some of
the other applicants have information or surveillance that tells them that
other stations are taking it.
4993 I can only guess
at the number. I know what we do, or
don't do, in this market.
4994 I am sufficiently
convinced that Guus and his team, after being here 40-some-odd years, are
getting most everything in the market.
At least, I would hope that would be the case, although we will meet
privately later.
--- Laughter / Rires
4995 THE
CHAIRPERSON: All right.
4996 Commissioner
Duncan.
4997 COMMISSIONER
DUNCAN: I would like to talk about the
live versus automated programming, the number of hours.
4998 I notice that the
other applicants ‑‑ the Torres group is proposing 126 hours
live, Blackburn 90 hours live, and Guelph Broadcasting, that we are going to
hear next, shows 99 hours.
4999 I am wondering why
you are satisfied with only 60 hours live, which is less than half, and, if I
were a listener to your station, how that would impact me as compared to some
of these other scenarios where the live is a much higher percentage.
5000 MR. HAZELAAR: I think what I would look at is, when we say
"live" and "not live" ‑‑ there are periods
Saturday and Sunday mornings, for example, where we do not run live programs.
5001 I would venture to
say that the taped program, or the voicetracked program that we have on
Saturday morning would rival any other program in the area. It is extremely well produced.
5002 We have noted in
our brief, as well, that on Sunday morning, from 6:30 a.m. until 9:00 a.m., we
run religious programming.
5003 During that
period, while it is not live, it is fully news covered. We do cover our surveillance and our news
material during that period. It is
monitored by the people we have on our FM side.
5004 So there are many
times when ‑‑ particularly in winter, for example. A Sunday afternoon game, obviously, would be
live. A Friday night game, obviously,
would be live.
5005 So we do bring
that in, but what we look at are those areas where ‑‑ when we
voicetrack, we voicetrack as though it was live, and we do present material. So even those times when we are not live on a
Saturday, our vehicle is out covering events all over the marketplace, and
filing reports on those events.
5006 So there is a live
component, even though we don't have an announcer necessarily.
5007 COMMISSIONER
DUNCAN: You mean that this coverage,
some of it is live ‑‑
5008 MR. HAZELAAR: Yes.
5009 COMMISSIONER
DUNCAN: -- through that day?
5010 MR. HAZELAAR: Yes, it is.
5011 COMMISSIONER
DUNCAN: So they interrupt, as it were,
your taped programming.
5012 MR. HAZELAAR: Yes.
5013 COMMISSIONER
DUNCAN: Is religious programming similar
to the coverage of hockey, in the respect that it is not normal to an FM
service, or is religious programming often broadcast on FM?
5014 MR. PANDOFF: Rarely.
Most times religious broadcasting ends up in Canada on the AM band on
Sunday mornings, primarily because of its ability to generate revenue and have
little cost attached to it.
5015 Again, with CJOY's
position in the market as a local heritage station, it would just not make good
broadcasting sense to change that.
5016 COMMISSIONER
DUNCAN: I understand that.
5017 Thank you very
much, those are my questions.
5018 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Legal counsel?
5019 MR. McINTYRE: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
5020 I just would like
to ask the Applicant to provide confirmation of the availability of financing
for the new undertaking by October 30th.
5021 MR. PANDOFF: Yes.
Actually, we will file that on Friday of this week. Our annual report is being released tomorrow
to the public markets.
5022 MR. McINTYRE: Great.
Thank you.
5023 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much for
your presentation.
5024 We will take a
15-minute break, and then we will hear the last Applicant for the Guelph
market.
--- Upon recessing at 1608 /
Suspension à 1608
--- Upon resuming at 1635 / Reprise
à 1635
5025 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Order, please.
5026 Madam Secretary.
5027 THE
SECRETARY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
5028 We will now
proceed with Item 13, which is an application by Guelph Broadcasting
Corporation for a licence to operate an English‑language FM commercial
radio programming undertaking in Guelph.
5029 The new station
would operate on Frequency 101.5, Channel 268A, with an average effective
radiated power of 132 watts, maximum effective radiated power of 500 watts,
with an effective height of antenna above average terrain of 40 metres.
5030 Appearing for the
Applicant is Mr. Doug Kirk.
5031 Please introduce
your colleagues. Then you will have 20
minutes to make your presentation.
PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
5032 MR. KIRK: Thank you, Madam Secretary.
5033 Good afternoon,
again, Vice‑Chairman and Hearing Chairman Arpin, Commissioners Cugini,
Simpson, Duncan and Menzies, Commission staff, and ladies and gentlemen ‑‑
or the three or four people who are left in the room.
5034 I am Doug Kirk,
Chairman and CEO of Guelph Broadcasting Corporation. This is a new company, which is proposing an
exciting new radio station for Guelph.
5035 My company, Durham
Radio, currently operates four stations in Hamilton and Oshawa, and is looking
forward to this opportunity of expanding to Guelph, and possibly London.
5036 As mentioned to
you earlier this week, I have been a passionate participant in the business for
over 30 years, a station owner for over 20, and I am here to continue to build
and grow.
5037 As mentioned
earlier, as part of my personal commitment to the industry, I have recently
taken on the President's role of running the Ontario Association of
Broadcasters.
5038 Before we share
the highlights of our application, let me take a moment to introduce our panel
again to you.
5039 To my right, your
left, is Dean Sinclair. Dean is
President and General Manager, proposed, for Guelph Broadcasting
Corporation. He is a 30‑year
experienced broadcaster, a long‑time resident of southwestern Ontario,
and a previous general manager of Corus' multi-station clusters in both
Hamilton and London.
5040 To my left, your
right, is Steve Kassay, Vice-President of Programming and Operations of the
four Durham Radio stations in Oshawa and Hamilton.
5041 To Steve's left is
Andrew Forsyth, our Programming Consultant.
Durham Radio stations have had the advantage of working with Andrew and
his expertise for over 15 years.
5042 Behind me is my
associate of many years, John Wright, who is controlling shareholder of K‑ROCK
in Kingston and KIX Country in Kingston.
John will invest and serve as a director of Guelph Broadcasting.
5043 Dr. Liesa Norman
is a proposed director. She was unable
to make this hearing. She is an
accomplished musician from Vancouver, but because of performance commitments,
could not make it.
5044 Liesa, with her
husband and partners, will own one-third of Guelph Broadcasting.
5045 This Applicant is
headed by me. Mr. Sinclair and I will
make the day‑to‑day operating decisions relating to the
station. Along with Dean and me, the
Board will include Mr. Kassay, Mr. Wright, and representatives of our investor
partners.
5046 I will have the
casting vote on the Board, to control the Board of the corporation.
5047 Guelph Broadcasting
Corporation brings together the operating expertise and background of Durham
Radio, along with Mr. Sinclair, and combines that with the experience and
counsel of Mr. Wright.
5048 Guelph is a great
place to start a new radio station. It
is a prosperous and industrious community.
It is close to Hamilton, Toronto, and Kitchener‑Waterloo. As such, it has participated in the growth of
Ontario's Golden Horseshoe over the past couple of decades.
5049 In addition to the
highly skilled industrial base underlying Guelph's economy ‑‑
and the manufacturing base provides 25 percent of Guelph's employment ‑‑
the city is home to a large university, the University of Guelph, and to Co‑operators
Insurance. The economy is well balanced.
5050 ROCK 101 will be a
very different radio station compared to the existing Guelph stations, and
unique in comparison to the stations being proposed by the other applicants.
5051 Guelph
Broadcasting brings a strong combination of broadcasting experience and
expertise, based on successful radio operations in southern Ontario.
5052 This team brings
practical knowledge of the Guelph region and its radio landscape, from many
years of operating in the area, in Oshawa, Hamilton and London.
5053 Earning a licence
in Guelph will give our group the opportunity to expand, to become a larger
regional operator, and will be based on the success of operating stations in
both Hamilton and Oshawa.
5054 I will now turn it
over to Dean Sinclair to describe what we call ROCK 101.
5055 MR. SINCLAIR: Thank you, Doug.
5056 ROCK 101 is
anchored by mainstream rock music, with an emphasis on local news and
information, and a unique plan for new artists, in a package targeting adults
25 to 54 years of age.
5057 Our application
meets the needs of the Guelph marketplace.
Approval of our application will offer diversity of ownership in what is
now a one‑owner market, offer a distinct editorial voice, stimulate
tuning to local radio and increase the utility of the media, offer a
comprehensive CCD plan that will foster new and emerging artists, offer a music
format that fulfils the demands of the 25 to 54‑year‑old audience,
and repatriate tuning and revenue from out‑of‑market stations.
5058 The Guelph CMA
population growth is projected at 2 percent annually until the year 2013,
higher than the Ontario average.
5059 Retail sales are
projected to grow by 7.25 percent annually, which is above the Ontario average.
5060 The radio revenue
forecast shows that retail sales in Guelph are more than able to sustain an
additional radio service.
5061 MR. FORSYTH: As you can tell, we are pretty excited about
the prospects of putting a mainstream rock station on the air to specifically
serve Guelph. This is a format we love and
have made a great success for listeners in Oshawa and Kingston.
5062 It is locally
oriented rock, community‑based radio, powered by today's best artists and
classic songs that stand the test of time.
5063 The entire thrust
of ROCK 101 is targeted at adults 25 to 54, and, more directly, the core of 35
to 44.
5064 Our criteria for
ROCK 101 is that the music, spoken word, feature programming, promotions and
lifestyle events ‑‑ everything that ROCK 101 does ‑‑
must address this key group of 35 to 44‑year‑olds before anything
else.
5065 ROCK 101 is more
than just great rock music, and Steve Kassay will talk about our compelling
spoken word plan shortly. But before we
get there, let me spend a few moments outlining the musical focus of the
station and the reasons that we believe Guelph needs ROCK 101.
5066 Guelph is served
by a campus station and a cluster of FM Hot AC, and an Oldies on AM, operated
by Corus. The commercial stations are
well respected and generate just under 20 percent of tuning in the market, as
you have already heard. Almost half of
the out‑of‑market tuning goes to Toronto, with the balance going to
Kitchener‑Waterloo, Hamilton, and even St. Catharines.
5067 Finding a format
that would provide diversity, repatriate the audience, fill a void in the
market, and be commercially viable was the question we presented to Hendershot
Research.
5068 Five non‑originating
formats were tested: country, adult
hits, smooth jazz, rock, and adult contemporary.
5069 The results of the
study show that mainstream rock is the format with the largest and broadest appeal,
and also the preferred musical style that would draw the largest frequency of
tuning.
5070 Fully 41 percent
of the respondents, and over half of the pivotal 35 to 44‑year‑old
group, said that they would listen often or very often to a station that plays
mainstream rock.
5071 Over 75 percent of
the respondents indicated that the format was very appealing or somewhat
appealing. That is not surprising, as
this is the feedback we get in Oshawa and Kingston.
5072 We also looked at
a BDS duplication study to see if the music proposed for ROCK 101 is readily
available on the market stations, and what impact that proposed playlist would
have on the incumbent FM service.
5073 Based on a 30-day
study, BDS found that only 4 percent of the songs were duplicated. This means that there is a lot of rock not
getting any exposure in Guelph. ROCK 101
will inject a new musical genre to the market and have no negative impact on
the present operations.
5074 Okay, that's a lot
of talk. What is ROCK 101
musically? Well, it's this.
--- Audio clip / Clip audio
5075 MR. FORSYTH: ROCK 101 is music that matters, great music
from artists like Gord Downie and the Tragically Hip, Canadian icons who
receive no airplay on Guelph radio, Pink Floyd, Rush, The Rolling Stones ‑‑
artists and songs that have shaped the common language of generations of
Canadians.
5076 ROCK 101 will be
an energetic, spontaneous and passionate mix of the world's greatest rock and
roll ‑‑ The Beatles, Jimmy Hendrix, BTO, Eric Clapton,
Nirvana, The Band, Red Hot Chili Peppers, U2, Guess Who, Arcade Fire, and State
of Shock. ROCK 101 will bring five
decades of rock to Guelph.
5077 Passion is the
underlying theme as we target adults 25 to 54, offering the classic and new
rock music they crave. New music is vital
to ROCK 101.
5078 Research results
substantiate our experience in the markets where we currently program rock
formats. Interest in new music is
strong, with more than 70 percent of Guelph survey respondents indicating that
new music is either very or somewhat important.
ROCK 101 has a strong commitment to new and emerging artists.
5079 We play
outstanding Canadian music and work hard in Oshawa and Kingston to help new
artists, and we will employ the same philosophy in Guelph.
5080 In a few minutes Dean
will describe the CCD program that will accompany the airplay for upcoming
musicians. We have a strong commitment
to Canadian content and emerging artists, with a minimum of 40 percent Canadian
content weekly, 40 percent Monday to Friday, 6 a.m. to 6 p.m., and 20 percent
of Canadian airplay. That is 8 percent
of all airplay from emerging artists.
5081 We are successful
at establishing strong local radio brands, investing in our programming, adding
context, entertainment and enlightenment.
5082 ROCK 101 will be a
powerful radio station, providing an exciting city with a service that demands
and deserves a good rock station.
5083 MR. KASSAY: As Andrew has described, ROCK 101 will appeal
to adults age 25 to 54 who can't find the music that they prefer to hear on a
local service. But music is just the
springboard. We are going to augment the
music with local information and news programming for those who live in Guelph.
5084 As an experienced
rock programmer and a huge fan of rock, I am really excited about the fact that
ROCK 101 will broadcast over 21 hours of spoken word programming each
week. Effective spoken word is the
cornerstone that brings character, depth, relevance, and a defining edge to the
radio. Local, immediate and interactive
is what makes us different from all of the other media.
5085 Just to simplify
something that we believe is really vital, we have broken down the spoken word
into three banners: music and
entertainment, news and information, and lifestyle.
5086 Music and
entertainment defines a station's personality and, in turn, it defines its
value to those who listen to ROCK 101.
5087 Our credo is to
ensure that the on‑air talent present an experience that brings the
listener, the music and the artists together, on the basis of a shared passion
for music.
5088 Our presentation
will tell the ongoing story of the musical emotion that has shaped and
continues to shape our lives.
5089 ROCK 101 will have
a team of knowledgeable and experienced on‑air hosts, whose primary role
will be to engage the listener. You will
hear interviews with new and established artists. We will promote the local music scene. We will share our passion for music, for
entertainment, and for community, through compelling and interactive delivery
and presentation.
5090 This interactivity
includes an intensive online presence, as well ‑‑ concert
listings, complete with links, so you can purchase tickets; sample downloads of
new and emerging music; Rock'ommended new albums to discover; online voting;
multiple audio streams, including the on‑air ROCK 101 audio stream; and,
of course, audience‑driven alternatives.
5091 We will mesh
classic tastes with new music on ROCK 101's "New Rock at 9",
"Emerging 101", "Deep Tracks 101" and the "New Rock
Challenge".
5092 We know through
our research that news is important to our target demo, 25 to 54‑year‑olds,
in Guelph, so to complete the loop, news and information on ROCK 101 has to
communicate with the audience on their terms.
This is very different from what is heard on the radio in Guelph
today. Our unique presentation makes
this part of the ROCK 101 experience.
5093 ROCK 101 news will
present more than 9 hours of news and information weekly, with pure news
accounting for over 3.5 hours a week.
Whether we are talking about the future of the Hanlon Expressway, or
recent revelations of a $340,000 compensation package to a former city
official, Guelph native Chris Bard's official appointment last week as the new
leader of the Snowbirds, or the awarding of Ontario's Medal for Good
Citizenship to a Guelph resident, ROCK 101 news commits to have local stories,
delivered in context, and on time.
5094 We will devote 75
percent of news airtime to stories of a local nature, and will introduce a
distinct news voice to the area and the residents, and, in doing so, will
increase the choice and diversity of editorial opinion available to residents
of Guelph.
5095 As someone who
talks to and listens to listeners who contact me from time to time, from any of
our stations across southern Ontario, with their thoughts, their comments and
their input, I know how important local information can be. That's why we know that ROCK 101 needs to
provide spoken word content that addresses life in Guelph, information about
the community, its lifestyle, its ecology, its industry, its diversity, its
perspectives, and its local interests.
5096 ROCK 101's
foremost commitment, of course, is to the community, and we will do that
through our unique ROCK 101 community initiative. Every day we will share important community
information about local events and local organizations. We will open our doors to local non‑profit
groups and bring their information to life with prime time show interviews,
online opportunities, online listings, on‑air announcements, and on‑site
station visits regularly scheduled throughout the year to promote events and
their messages.
5097 ROCK 101
"Around Guelph", for instance, will air three times daily. In addition to the breakfast show interviews
that will be integral to the programming, these will fill an important aspect
of our programming strategy: to be
relevant and meaningful to residents of Guelph.
5098 From fundraisers
to fun events, ROCK 101 will be proud to be an accessible, proactive and
reliable community partner.
5099 MR. SINCLAIR: Approval of Guelph Broadcasting Corporation's
application will have a significant benefit for musical talent in Guelph. ROCK 101 has committed to over $312,000 in
direct cash during the first licence term.
In addition to the $88,000 committed to FACTOR, ROCK 101 will undertake
two local Guelph initiatives, targeted at the development and promotion of new
and emerging local talent.
5100 Specifically,
these projects include the ROCK 101 talent search and MusiCounts.
5101 ROCK 101 is
pleased to partner up with MusiCounts through CARAS, the Canadian Academy of
Recording Arts and Sciences. Through
their partnership with Canada's music industry, the media and business,
MusiCounts' mission is to make sure that young Canadians have access to a comprehensive
music program through the school system.
5102 MusiCounts
includes Band Aid, as well as scholarships and music education initiatives.
5103 ROCK 101 will
spend $105,000 on these projects, designated through MusiCounts, for Guelph
schools.
5104 ROCK 101 will also
commit $119,000 in direct funds to develop and stage the ROCK 101 talent
search. The winner will receive funding
for a studio demo, and a chance to perform onstage, in connection with the
annual Hillside Festival in Guelph.
5105 MR. KIRK: Thanks, Dean.
5106 We believe that
the partners of this application are uniquely well positioned and ready to
introduce a successful new radio station to Guelph.
5107 Over 80 percent of
the tuning, as you have heard, is to stations outside the market. As a result, we calculate that Guelph radio
revenue underperforms comparable markets by at least $2 million.
5108 Approval of this
application will, first, repatriate out‑of‑market tuning and
revenues by providing Guelph listeners with a new local radio service in a
distinctive format.
5109 ROCK 101 will
increase musical diversity and choice provided by the local stations.
5110 The research that
we have tabled shows that rock is clearly the most popular non‑originated
format in Guelph.
5111 We will super‑serve
Guelph residents with over 21 hours of spoken word programming each week.
5112 We will provide
substantial new support for Canadian Content Development for new and emerging
Canadian talent, with direct cash contributions to FACTOR and our local talent
initiatives, totalling $41,000 in the first year, and over $312,000 over the
first term of licence.
5113 We will directly
contribute to ownership and editorial diversity in Guelph by allowing a strong,
energetic and successful regional independent broadcaster to enter the market.
5114 Our proposed
format will provide a unique product in the Guelph market. It will be broad enough ‑‑
it absolutely ‑‑ I want to stress that ‑‑ it
absolutely must be broad enough to generate a large enough audience to be
valuable to local advertisers. In that
way it can generate the revenues needed to fulfil its business plan.
5115 To conclude,
Guelph Broadcasting's proposal will add diversity in ownership, music choices
and news to the market, we will make material contributions to the music
community, and, most importantly, we will offer a format which is big enough to
be viable, based on the small signal available in this market.
5116 We ask you for
approval of our application to establish ROCK 101 to serve Guelph.
5117 Thank you very
much. We will take your questions.
5118 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Kirk.
5119 My first question
goes directly to the oral presentation.
It is only a matter of, not necessarily clarification, but better
understanding.
5120 In your oral presentation,
Mr. Kassay, under the section called "Engagement", referred to the
Snowbirds, saying, "Guelph native Chris Bard's official appointment last
week as the new Snowbirds leader..."
5121 Are the Guelph
Snowbirds the same type of Snowbirds that we know in Quebec, those who leave at
this time of the year and come back at the end of April?
--- Laughter / Rires
5122 MR. KIRK: I don't think they can afford it any more.
--- Laughter / Rires
5123 MR. KASSAY: If they fly in CT‑114 Tutors, yes.
5124 MR. FORSYTH: Which were manufactured in Quebec.
5125 THE
CHAIRPERSON: It is interesting, because
these people are not necessarily the audience that you are directly catering
to. You are talking about the Snowbirds
here, but they are much older than the audience you are aiming at.
5126 You are, more or
less, aiming at their children.
5127 MR. KASSAY: To clarify, the Snowbirds reference is to
Canada's aerial demonstration team.
5128 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, those are the ones you
are talking about.
5129 Because the Quebec
ones are the elderly, who leave every winter to go to Florida.
5130 MR. KIRK: They forward their mail to Fort Lauderdale.
5131 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Exactly. Okay, that's clear.
5132 This question is
for Mr. Forsyth. You introduced us to
your music sample. Was it the same music
sample that was used by Hendershot to do their marketing study?
5133 MR. FORSYTH: The sample we used would have been somewhat
shorter, but would have had the same components. It would have had the same mix of styles.
5134 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Today you are not the sole
applicant that is aiming for new rock, classic rock and ‑‑
well, ROCK 101, as you have just described it.
Could you describe for us the distinction that you see between your
application and the one we heard just before you from Blackburn?
5135 MR. KIRK: I will start, and I will let our music
experts embellish the answer.
5136 I think that both
applications are broadly based on the same genre of music. We call it a broad‑based rock
station. The foundation of that is
classic rock. Added into that is some
new rock.
5137 So it's not
narrowly defined to an older demographic, which would be a pure classic rock
station. It can blend in and bring in
some of the younger demos in the thirties.
5138 It's a format
that, I think ‑‑ and I can't speak to Blackburn and its exact
composition, but it is a similar format to what they have used. It is a format that we use on CKGE‑FM
in Oshawa. It is a format that is
similar to John's station in Kingston, Ontario.
5139 So it is not as
narrow as you might get in some of the major markets, where it is pure classic
rock or pure new rock in Toronto, for example.
5140 I will stop now
and let the experts give you a bit better feel for it.
5141 MR. KASSAY: While I understand your question, you, of
course, have the benefit of having heard theirs in its entirety, as well as our
presentation.
5142 Ours is very
strategically targeted at 35 to 44 adults.
Twenty-five to 54 is the broad target.
Ours is defined as talking to mature adults, aged 35 to 44, as the
absolute core.
5143 I recognize that
as a distinct difference.
5144 THE
CHAIRPERSON: To use the standard
introduction that the Commission sometimes uses, if, in its wisdom, the
Commission were to grant more than one licence to Guelph, I suspect that you
would not be recommending that we grant you and Blackburn a licence.
5145 MR. KIRK: I
think there would be a high degree of duplication between the two
proposals and one of them was probably sufficient to launch in the market on
the first run.
5146 If I may, I don't
know if Andrew wanted to talk any more about the music at all.
5147 I just wanted to
add to your point that the type of music formulation delivers exactly
the type of audience that we are proposing for Guelph in the Oshawa market
for example. It peaks in the 35‑44
area.
5148 THE
CHAIRPERSON: As you are saying, you
already have the experience of the format, you know the type of audience that
you will get and you are aiming at that specific audience.
5149 MR. KIRK: Correct.
5150 MR. FORSYTH: I was going to only add to that by saying
that one of the points I brought up in the presentation was the core is 35‑44.
5151 So again, the
concept ‑‑ I can't speak to the Blackburn application
particularly or how they are going to execute what they have on paper, but
certainly the experience with Mr. Kirk's radio station and with Mr. Wright's
radio station, where particularly in Kingston there is a lot of competition as
an independent operator with both Corus and CHUM, a lot of American signals
coming into the market, we knew from day one it was going to be very important
to have that broad 25‑54‑year‑old format, not only musically
but also in the content that Steve spoke about.
5152 It's very
important that the content is also focused on 35‑44. Before everything else, if you don't
have that core you end up skewing too young.
If you skew to the university student audience as opposed to
necessarily ‑‑ you do yourself a disservice and, frankly, you
do the campus station a disservice as well and you are not doing your
advertisers any good either.
5153 But I think the
key to this is the fact that everything comes out of 35‑44 and that has
been the success for both the other stations.
5154 MR. WRIGHT: If I could add a comment there?
5155 One of the most
wonderful blessings that we have with a rock format is that the music carries
itself right from 18 through to 60, so even though we focus our spoken word and
we focus our news on that adult group in the middle, we still end up with very,
very strong ratings in the ‑‑ actually from the late teens
right through 18 to 24, 18 to 34. It is
a very broad format.
5156 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Thank you for the clarification.
5157 Let's talk about
spoken word.
5158 In the reply that
you gave to the Commission through a deficiency letter ‑‑
particularly I'm referring to the reply you gave to question 7 ‑‑
you included a table which shows the assignment of the programming staff.
5159 The table
indicates that your news personnel will not only do news but will also be
involved in the production and the broadcast of lifestyle programming. So are all the staff members that are
indicated on that list.
5160 How will the
assignment of staff be done regarding between news and lifestyle programming?
5161 MR. KIRK: I will turn the question to Steve Kassay who
has operated and designed these programs, the actual staffing grid.
5162 So, Steve...?
5163 MR. KASSAY: Thanks, Doug.
5164 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Can you by the same token
describe what will be those? I guess
they are going to be features, because you have an hour and 37 minutes over the
week. So you are talking here 30 to 90
second features spread over in the programming grid I would suspect.
5165 MR. KASSAY: Yes.
Yes, we do throughout the week.
5166 Thank you.
5167 THE
CHAIRPERSON: So could you describe also
what will be the content of those lifestyle features?
5168 MR. KASSAY: Absolutely.
5169 Well, what we find
in radio today is nobody does just one thing anymore, staff is responsible
for a primary role and usually some other duties and contributions to our
programming.
5170 Our news, you
would note on the grid in the deficiency reply you referred to, that one of the
newspeople also serves an admin role ‑‑
5171 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
5172 MR. KASSAY: ‑‑
naturally as a news director.
5173 THE
CHAIRPERSON: That's what
I concluded.
5174 MR. KASSAY: Typically ‑‑ typically that
person is the more experienced and is in charge of the daily lineup and
assignments for the third person, the reporter.
So once the busy morning run is done some attention is turned to
supporting other things.
5175 You asked about
the lifestyle features such as the environment feature ROCK 101's Mother Earth,
business features, talking about finances, these are the types of things that
are produced on a daily basis.
5176 The news director
currently does commentaries as well.
That happens after 9 o'clock when they are in the admin role and a
production role, and it's the same with the other staff who will come in at a
certain time of day but not begin on air until later in the afternoon. Those earlier hours are spent with production
and research.
5177 That's how we
accomplish generating all these features in‑house, not having the need to
go outside to obtain them, and all locally generated by our staff, points of
contact are close, we can stay much more coordinated that way.
5178 THE
CHAIRPERSON: At the end of the day who
makes the assignment of the feature, because all the staff in the programming
division, including the newspeople, are doing lifestyle programming. So somebody has to act as the coordinator of
those lifestyle. Is it the news
director? Is it the program director?
5179 MR. KASSAY: It is the program director.
5180 THE
CHAIRPERSON: It is the
program director ‑‑
5181 MR. KASSAY: Yes.
5182 THE CHAIRPERSON:
‑‑ who makes the assignment.
5183 When it does enter
into conflict with the news director, who makes the final decision?
5184 MR. KASSAY: The program director or the news director
will ‑‑ I was going to add ‑‑ will do this
together.
5185 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
5186 MR. KASSAY: It has to work.
5187 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
5188 MR. KASSAY: We have a philosophy too, that, you know, in
the end the goal is to generate the product we need with the quality and
attention that our own philosophy demands.
It's done together until we achieve resolution. If we need to lock the door, we shall.
5189 THE
CHAIRPERSON: I note in your submission
that you have stated that you will be broadcasting up to 8 hours and 9 1/2
minutes of news, so that's a lot of news for a staff of the size that you are
contemplating on one end. On top of
that, you are asking them to do lifestyle programming.
5190 Are you doing that
already in some of your other stations?
5191 MR. KASSAY: We are to a degree. Our other stations have other demands.
5192 For instance, we
carry, in Oshawa, Oshawa Generals hockey.
So it happens that some duties that we would propose to you here that we
would be asking staff in Guelph to do aren't duplicated there because we have
the hockey angle to take care of. The
extra things some of those people do are actually play by plays, colour
commentaries and in period features because, frankly, we pride ourselves on the
intermission features. We just happen to
think they are head and shoulders above the rest because we actually think hard
and use their news skills to gather relevant stories for intermission pieces.
5193 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Will you be sharing
programming with the Oshawa Station?
5194 MR. KASSAY: We will be sharing ideas and experience, we
won't be sharing any produced pieces, only in that the people working in the
markets aren't in touch with each other's markets and local work produces the
best local results.
5195 THE
CHAIRPERSON: So if I'm hearing you well,
I'm taking the Oshawa rock station, you are doing the same ‑‑
the newscasters are also doing lifestyle features and it works?
5196 MR. KASSAY: There they are doing mostly sporting
features.
5197 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Sporting features.
5198 MR. KASSAY: And it works.
5199 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. And it works, yes.
5200 MR. KASSAY: We must be ‑‑ it's a local
approach that were taking, absolutely.
5201 THE
CHAIRPERSON: You adapt yourself to the
market where you are.
5202 MR. KASSAY: We must, yes.
5203 MR. FORSYTH: If I just may add to that?
5204 I work with Steve
and Doug on the Oshawa Station. I don't
go out to the station as often as I probably should they remind me, but I do
spend time and I have helped John's station in Kingston as they have gone through
some organizational changes and it's to just use that buzzword that's there now
and that is that everybody multi‑tasks.
5205 It is sort of a
requirement within certainly the radio industry now that not only do you have
to have, if you are an on‑air personality, a great personality, a good
voice, all of the old standard things, you have to be able to talk to the
audience, you have to be able to edit, you have to be able to do your own
research, which of course these days is a lot easier with the internet, et
cetera. You have to be able to go and
talk to the audience, you have to be engaged in many different things.
5206 So again, as Steve
has already said, when you have a program director who can allocate these
things out and it's scheduled out, it becomes part of the day to day fabric of
what the person does at the radio station.
It is actually, frankly, coming from the old school. A lot more exciting, we do a lot more interesting
things.
5207 MR. KASSAY: I will add that there is, to answer your question,
a program we will share, it's locally produced, and that is the Beatles
Universe Music Program that is produced by an in‑house colleague.
5208 We also take
advantage ‑‑ we also take advantage of people's
strengths. There is a staff member who
loves NASCAR. Personally, I don't get it
but he does, so he's the one that produces a feature not me because he
knows. He knows about NASCAR, he
produces NASCAR.
5209 The one who
attends all the concerts and just never misses a show is the one
responsible for making sure the concert calendar is up to date. Why?
That's where the strength lies.
It's prudent to use it.
5210 THE
CHAIRPERSON: And I will say, are those
lifestyle programs preproduced or are they live?
5211 MR. KASSAY: They are preproduced.
5212 THE
CHAIRPERSON: They are preproduced.
5213 That brings me to,
your stations will be staffed all day long or are you using voice track or any
other type of automation?
5214 MR. KASSAY: We do employ an automation system and we will
employ one in Guelph. We are live all
day throughout the week. Voice tracks
are a component of radio these days for most stations, however, in our plan,
and the strategic plan has ‑‑ I'm just trying to do the math.
5215 What was it? 99 hours a week is our commitment to the
community for live radio.
5216 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Live radio.
5217 MR. KASSAY: Minimum.
5218 THE
CHAIRPERSON: So it means that from 6:00
in the morning to, say, around 8:00 at night Monday to Friday and then over the
weekend...
5219 MR. KASSAY: Typically you would find the weekend evenings
prerecorded ‑‑
5220 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Are prerecorded.
5221 MR. KASSAY: Same day.
Much with the features too, they are done, many of them, same day.
5222 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Are the features repeated
or are they only broadcast once?
5223 MR. KASSAY: It varies.
Some are ‑‑ our community features are done distinctly,
because if it plays three times a day there is one for the morning, there is
one for the midday, there is one for the evening.
5224 Frankly, I demand
fresh cuts for each because in our area, in Oshawa for instance ‑‑
Hamilton as well ‑‑ there is so much going on that it deserves
an update. Otherwise it's ‑‑
we won't deliver stale information. We
try to be as current as we possibly can.
Frankly, the audience demands it.
I do take those calls from people and I hear if something didn't go
exactly right.
5225 THE
CHAIRPERSON: I had a question regarding
your CCD, but I think you already answered it in the case of London application
so I will guess the answer is the same.
5226 Just for the
record.... It has to do with MusiCounts.
5227 MR. KIRK: MusiCounts, yes.
5228 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
5229 MR. KIRK: Okay.
We can just quickly review the ‑‑
5230 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
5231 MR. SINCLAIR: I'm sorry, Mr. Chairman, what would the
question be?
5232 THE
CHAIRPERSON: The question is, from our
own standpoint we want to make sure that the scholarship that you are
contemplating are meeting the criteria of CCD.
5233 MR. SINCLAIR: Yes.
5234 THE
CHAIRPERSON: I think that question was
asked to you during your appearance for London and I think you provided us
with a reply saying that MusiCounts replaces MusiCan and they administer
various programs and you will be contributing towards MusiCounts who will then
provide the scholarship.
5235 MR. SINCLAIR: That's correct.
5236 THE
CHAIRPERSON: So you don't have a
personal relationship with the recipient?
5237 MR. SINCLAIR: No, we don't.
5238 THE
CHAIRPERSON: That's what we wanted to
know.
5239 Some questions
regarding the economics of your proposal.
5240 On page 8 of your
supplementary brief you provided us with a revenue forecast for the years 2008,
2010 and 2013 and in order to make that forecast you did use two different
databases, at least that's what I understood, one being TRAM, the second being
CAB because there was no available financial data made public by the
Commission.
5241 I was wondering
when you say that you used TRAM, did you use only the ‑‑
it's all the TRAM numbers or was it specific to Ontario?
5242 And the
same for the CAB? What is the CAB
database by the way, maybe to start with before going to how you choose your
criteria?
5243 MR. KIRK: Sure.
5244 The whole idea was
to try and ‑‑ because we didn't have any specific data on
Guelph.
5245 THE CHAIRPERSON:
Yes.
5246 MR. KIRK: It was trying to scale it and related to
other metrics that you can get on a national basis.
5247 I will let Andrew
talk to you about the specific methodology we used to get those numbers,
but it was to try and prove the total size of the market.
5248 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
5249 MR. FORSYTH: To answer the first part of your question,
Mr. Chairman, in both the case of TRAM and CAB it would have been for the
national figures that were available.
The CAB ‑‑ so the TRAM figure or the TRAM Report, as
you know ‑‑
5250 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
5251 MR. FORSYTH: So that was the national. It didn't look at just Ontario, it was for
the total.
5252 The CAB figure a
ratio if you like, that .35 per cent, came from a paper that they
filed actually with the Commission on the Radio Policy when they spoke about
small markets and they did an entire study of Canada and radio revenue. So it was some historical data they had.
5253 The number that
they have come up with as their national figure was .35. So we used those two numbers as we felt very
good benchmarks.
5254 THE
CHAIRPERSON: As a range and you choose
to keep ‑‑
5255 MR. FORSYTH: Take the lower.
5256 THE
CHAIRPERSON: ‑‑ the lower one to make your financial
assumptions.
5257 MR. FORSYTH: That is correct, sir.
5258 THE
CHAIRPERSON: You are stating in making
your own projection, you said ‑‑ I don't want to say
that ‑‑ you are estimating that there is about $2 million
of untapped revenues. I will read it.
"We estimate a significant gap of
over $2 million between the market potential and the actual current market
revenues." (As read)
5259 That's part of
your submission.
5260 Now, you said in
your oral presentation that obviously you are of the view that part of that
money is going towards other markets.
5261 Now, the other
markets are significant markets, Toronto and Milton. Do you have evidence that the Toronto
stations are soliciting in Guelph?
5262 MR. KIRK: It's anecdotal. We don't have a specific number.
5263 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Or other station.
5264 My question, I
will just focused it on Toronto, I could have added Hamilton as well and to
some extent even Kitchener‑Waterloo which is much bigger than Guelph.
5265 Do you have
evidence that the radio stations in these markets are soliciting
advertising in Guelph?
5266 MR. KIRK: The quick answer is yes, there are Guelph
advertisers that have been identified on Kitchener stations, on Hamilton and
Toronto stations. These are retail type
of accounts.
5267 For example, in
the country format there is a country establishment in the north end of Guelph
and they use a Hamilton radio station because there is no country station in
Guelph.
5268 There are other
account relationships that have been identified that use Kitchener stations,
people who might be in the soft AC.
5269 So I don't know
the specific numbers, but you know that there are a lot of accounts, but by
specific account how much they are spending, but they are obviously
significant. They are on the air
virtually all the time with out of market stations.
5270 THE
CHAIRPERSON: I see, okay.
5271 Generally
speaking, the big radio stations ‑‑ the stations in the big
markets, they may from time to time send a salesman once a year to try to,
during a slow month like July, send some people around the country to get
whatever they could get.
5272 MR. KIRK: I can assure you operating a station in
Oshawa that that happens.
‑‑‑ Laughter
/ Rires
5273 MR. WRIGHT: Mr. Chair, some out of market stations too,
if they happen to have some available inventory will design packages to go into
these other markets and try and get some revenue from those other markets. So they recognize that they may be a bigger
market and their rates may be too high for the smaller market, but they will
adjust that for the special community package.
5274 MR. KIRK: If I may just add, in our year 2
projection that we filed we assume 40 per cent of that year 2 revenue
will be repatriation from out of market.
5275 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
5276 MR. KIRK: You can't cover all the formats, but
certainly by increasing the utility of radio in the market and getting into
very format‑specific type of accounts that are using out of market, that
would be ‑‑ you might call it low hanging fruit to repatriate
to the market.
5277 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
5278 I note that in
looking at your Appendix 7.4 where in effect you are saying that you are
expecting that 40 per cent of your year 2 revenues will be coming
from those out of market radio stations.
5279 In the same table
I note that you haven't forecasted any revenues coming from the existing
stations.
5280 MR. WRIGHT: I believe we have forecasted 20 per cent
coming from ‑‑
‑‑‑ Pause
5281 THE
CHAIRPERSON: I will have to
find that.
5282 MR. WRIGHT: One of the things that we discovered when we
launched in Kingston as well is that there is certainly an uplift in the
market, you know in the year ‑‑ in the year of launch and a
couple of years afterwards.
5283 As an example, in
Kingston a market that was maybe a little low on the expenditures, the
advertising expenditures, we launched in 2001 and 2002 saw a 20 per cent
increase in revenues and 2003 saw an additional 20 per cent increase in
revenues.
5284 THE
CHAIRPERSON: But mainly through
increased spending by the advertiser rather than money shifting from one to the
other.
5285 MR. KIRK: Oh absolutely.
5286 By adding the
third station in the market and a new company you will ‑‑ I
don't know specifically how many radio salespeople the Corus cluster has, it's
probably maybe 10 or 12, we would have at least half that, maybe more. So you are almost ‑‑ you are
adding 40, 50, 60 per cent to the number of people working the market and
with a distinct product there are a whole group of advertisers there that
really didn't have a very specific vehicle to use in the market.
5287 So it really is
quite a good synergy to walk into the market and be able to lift the market
sales as well as repatriate sales in that specific format that are going out of
market.
5288 THE
CHAIRPERSON: I know that the staff
of the Commission are saying ‑‑ maybe you could provide
us with your comments, but they seem to feel that you are pretty
optimistic in fairly quickly reaching the level of revenues that
you are forecasting.
5289 What had been your
assumption to really be able to raise that much money so quickly?
5290 MR. KIRK: I will start the answer and let everyone else
embellish it a bit.
5291 First and
foremost, Guelph is a significant size market, it is a population of in excess
of 120,000 people, it has been growing quickly and, as demonstrated by the
national kind of averages is we believe substantially underperforming in terms
of generation of local revenue and by repatriating that audience and putting
the new entity in the market it will lift the whole market. That's why you can pick up revenues
reasonably quickly.
5292 Some of it is
already being spent out of the market, that is bringing it back in. And also just increasing the utility of radio
on a local signal is a very quick start to build revenue.
5293 I think John
commented on the startup of KROC has a new entity in Kingston lifted the market
quite dramatically and was very successful in a very short time to bring that.
5294 This is a very,
very good format. It is a desirable
format. There are lots of people from
our experience that want to use rock stations to reach their markets. So with the amount of tuning that is
going out of the market to the rock format we think it is a very deep and rich
mine to open up in this market.
5295 Anyone...?
5296 MR. WRIGHT: I think this is in keeping with the kinds of
results we had when we launched in Kingston and it was a more competitive
marketplace. So when we look at Guelph
we think that there is ample opportunity to achieve those results.
5297 We are certainly
forecasting an underachievement in revenue share from our audience share. We realize that we are not going to. It always does take a bit of time to get the
traction on the sales side. So when we
launch we are going to achieve an audience share that we won't match in revenue
for year 1, but we are confident that the $1.2 million is achievable
and we have done it before. So I think
we are pretty confident that we can do it again in this environment.
5298 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Wright.
5299 MR. KIRK: Just if I ‑‑
5300 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Yes...?
5301 MR. KIRK: If I may, just a comparison for example to
Blackburn.
5302 I think their
year 7 revenue was just over $2 million and we are about 2.3 $million, so
it's not a dramatic difference at that point.
5303 THE
CHAIRPERSON: But it's a
quicker start.
5304 MR. KIRK: Yes.
5305 THE
CHAIRPERSON: But based on your own
experience, as Mr. Wright just stated.
5306 MR. KIRK: Correct.
5307 THE
CHAIRPERSON: I understood from your
previous appearance this week that Mr. Sinclair is living in London
and if you are granted the London licence he will become the operator of the
London radio station.
5308 If in its wisdom
again the CRTC was also to grant you the Guelph licence, who will be managing
the Guelph radio station, or the London one if maybe Mr. Sinclair will elect to
move at that time.
5309 MR. SINCLAIR: I hope my wife's not listening then.
‑‑‑ Laughter
/ Rires
5310 MR. SINCLAIR: I think first of all I would certainly have
to downgrade from my Ford Expedition because it's fairly a gas guzzler right
now.
5311 MR. KIRK: The idea would be Mr. Sinclair would
manage the London or the Guelph operations.
5312 I am close by as
well and I travel now to Hamilton and Oshawa and Guelph is about the same
distance away, so we have senior management available to do that.
5313 If we were in the
delightful position of receiving the Commission's wisdom on
two applications, we would expand the management and hire another
qualified general manager to ably manage both operations.
5314 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Those were my questions,
Mr. Kirk, but I know Commissioner Simpson has some questions for you.
5315 COMMISSIONER
SIMPSON: Not so much a question,
but just I think to put a fine and a final point on the line of questioning
concerning the pro forma, it's just that it did really stand out the confidence
you had in your financial projections, given that, as Mr. Arpin pointed
out, you were planning on turning the corner in year three when
other broadcasters such as the Blackburn organization who are, you know,
pretty familiar with this market area, saw this happening more in a year four
scenario, and your revenue forecast from the get‑go were 20 per cent
larger than the incumbent, let alone some of the other proponents.
5316 So it's just that
it really stood out and it begs asking the question, I like to say: What do you know that the others don't know?
5317 I think Mr. Arpin
was getting closer to the issue where there is such a migration out of
this market with out of market listening that we are obviously taking that into
account in your projections in terms of recapture.
5318 I also noted that
your projection on national revenue was ‑‑ you know, you were
not counting on it to the national 20:80 split that you normally see. You were down more around the 12 per
cent range.
5319 So you had
throttled back in predictable areas, but you were throttling up in others and I
think I just wanted to make that statement for the record.
5320 MR. KIRK: Okay.
5321 If we could just
add maybe a bit to it.
5322 I agree, I think
we have done this. We have gotten some
actual cases that are quite similar and you can see how they start up.
5323 Guelph I think
suffers from having too little originated radio so it has underdeveloped and I
think advertisers, it has a daily newspaper and a couple of weekly newspapers,
so it does have a good local business there and it's a substantial market and
it's growing quickly.
5324 So that just added
to our level of confidence that having the area that has been underdeveloped,
particularly with a single operator AM/FM situation, it has maybe just not been
as aggressively pushed as possible and this looks like a terrific opportunity
to get into a very vibrant market.
5325 That is basically
based on experience that we have done it before, we can see how it can come up
and this would be a well‑accepted vehicle coming into the market with a
really sweet format, a really terrific audience that you could develop
here. So we are quite comfortable.
5326 I suppose I should
comment on the economy out there. I
think these days the business news network is probably getting higher ratings
than CTV, but we think the current conditions are turning around and all we
have heard in this part of Ontario for the last year, year and a half is, oh,
the Canadian dollar, the Canadian ‑‑ oh, the high dollar is
hurting manufacturing.
5327 I just put some
figures together here to indicate the kind of change that we have been living
with here for a year and a half but are changing very, very dramatically hour
by hour as we speak.
5328 Just before we
started here, just before the market closed today, the Canadian dollar was
actually below $.80 at 79.4 cents and it wasn't even a year ago in November '07
the peak as $1.10 and it was riding at parity or higher for most of the time in
between. In the last couple of months we
have seen that from peak to current is almost a 28 per cent decrease in
value of the Canadian dollar.
5329 And the
manufacturers in this part of Ontario, when we had an $.85 or a $.90 dollar
were able to compete. When it went
through to $1.05 or $1.10 it made it tougher, but now we have seen that
retraced just in the space of 60 days.
5330 Oil closed today
at $66.40 a barrel and it was just three months ago it was $147. That's a 55 per cent drop in three
months, you know, and a lot of that pressure is building into we can't
afford to do this, our fuel costs. Well,
you know, that's such a dramatic shift, I have never seen kind of moves like that.
5331 In addition, you
saw yesterday bank rate was cut, bank primes had been cut. In November last year, not even a year ago,
prime rate was 6.25 per cent. Today
with the adjustment it's 4 per cent.
That's down 36 per cent.
5332 So that makes the
difference to smaller businesses and retailers because they live in that
financing space. They are not in the
commercial paper markets or the public markets.
So this is real stimulus, in my view, to what is going on in the local
economy around here. So I think that's
going to be helpful.
5333 We still don't
know where the bottom is, but these are the conditions that are falling into
place to charge the upturn when we finally say enough is enough and get to the
bottom of the hill.
5334 MR. WRIGHT: If I could add a comment?
5335 We also are I
believe in the comparisons, we are spending the most money on programming as
well, so when we look at kickstarting this application we realize that to go
in ‑‑ and in any market where you are going in and you are now
facing an incumbent, you have to be hopefully better than the incumbent in
order to get anything from them.
5336 So we purposely
are spending more money on programming, we think it's what drives the ratings,
so that we get the ratings and then that drives the money. So I think you will see that our expenditures
over the course of the seven‑year period on programming are higher than
anybody else.
5337 I have one final
comment. Commissioner Menzies, I think
yesterday said what is your edge, I think was the way of putting it. What do you have that separates you and
kind of gives you a bit of an edge?
5338 You know, as you
know, my role has changed and many years ago I had vowed that if I were ever to
invest in small business that it would be a business that I participate in from
an operational point of view so that I could have some ‑‑ I
could watch my money so to speak, I could have some influence on whether it was
being directed well and whether the company was going to be successful.
5339 Of course, I'm not
doing that now. I have withdrawn from
the operational side and I'm an investor in the company. I just think it's important for me to say
that the reason that I have broken that vow and the reason that I have done
something here that I have not done before is Doug Kirk. I think Doug Kirk and his vision, his
creativity, his determination, his history is a competitive edge for us.
5340 Doug has started a
station, I don't know, about 10 years in Ajax.
It was an AM station, it then became an FM station, it is now a cluster
in Oshawa. He then acquired
Hamilton. Since he has the cluster in
Oshawa he figured out how to get a transmitter on the top of CN Tower and his
Oshawa station KX is now covering the whole east side of Toronto. That's creativity.
5341 He then looked at
the Hamilton market and he has a format that he is passionate about and he has
stuck with and he has fulfilled his commitments, but he realized that the
format was a low reach format that needed wider geography and he has expanded
the footprint of that radio station over the years and now gets into the west
side of Toronto.
5342 So Doug is a
creative guy, he is determined, he is dogged, he never gives up and then, from
my point of view, being an investor in him, he is also extremely honest and
reliable, he is fiercely loyal and he is determined to grow, which if you are
an investor you want to be with somebody who is determined to grow.
5343 Doug has applied I
think eight times in the last six years for new licences and I know that he is
going to grow and I think that's a strong reason for the Commission to look at
Doug's applications for London and for Guelph.
5344 Thank you.
5345 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Thank you, gentlemen.
5346 Legal counsel...?
5347 MR. McINTYRE: I would just like to ask the applicant to
provide confirmation of availability of financing for the new undertaking by
October 30th.
5348 MR. KIRK: Yes, those are in process based on the
directive earlier this week and we will have them to you by the timeline.
5349 MR. McINTYRE: Perfect.
Thank you.
5350 THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, gentlemen, this concludes the Phase I
of the Guelph portion of this public hearing.
5351 We will now go to
Phase II.
5352 MR. KIRK: Thank you.
5353 ASSISTANT
SECRETARY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
5354 We have now
reached Phase II in which applicants appear in the same order to intervene on
competing applications if they wish.
5355 For the record,
Frank Torres, Blackburn Radio Inc. and a 591989 B.C. Ltd. have already
indicated they would not appear in Phase II.
5356 Therefore, I would
ask Guelph Broadcasting Corporation to come forward.
5357 MR. KIRK: So we don't have to move. It's very efficient. We will get to the gym five minutes earlier.
‑‑‑ Laughter
/ Rires
INTERVENTION
5358 MR. KIRK: This is a Phase II intervention by Guelph
Broadcasting against the Corus application made by 591989 B.C. Ltd. It's really not an intervention against Corus
regarding the actual conversion, but let me explain.
5359 In their
application Corus seeks to convert their AM station to the FM band. We are just concerned because of the recent
history on AM to FM conversions or AM to FM flips and there is some very
specific recent history that I think the Commission is well aware of that we
just wanted to cite and put it back on the record.
5360 We don't want to sort
of aggressively intervene on the proposal, but I think there's a point to be
made and I have a couple of suggestions that might clarify this process when
you have AM to FM flips, particularly in this case where there are new
licences, potential certainly applicants applying for new licences.
5361 I will ask Dean
for one example and I know John has some specific examples for Kingston.
5362 First, though, I
will cite in Peterborough, Ontario where about a year ago CTV, CHUM converted
CKPT‑AM to the FM band. CKPT‑AM
was a standards based station on AM and had in the process I think asked for a
conversion to keep it in the same format, and so on.
5363 On approval the
station was relaunched as a CHR called Energy 99.3, which has now migrated to
99.7, but basically it was a brand‑new station in the market.
5364 I think John has
had experience with a couple of flips in Kingston with CHUM's CKLC, which was
an AM station. It was as well in a
standards format. There was, I guess,
indications in the application process that that was going to be migrated to
the FM band and when it relaunched it relaunched as 98.9 The Drive and I
believe, John you can confirm, it's in a Triple‑A format.
5365 MR. WRIGHT: Correct.
Correct.
5366 MR. KIRK: Finally, with respect to Corus in
Kingston ‑‑ and Dean has a western example in a minute ‑‑
but Corus converted their AM station again late last year, CFXX‑AM which
was an oldies based station. It was
relaunched in Kingston CFXX‑FM as Lite 104. It abandoned the oldies format and was
relaunched as light rock.
5367 Dean, you can
cite, I think, the case in Kelowna.
5368 MR. SINCLAIR: Sure, Doug.
5369 I think about a
year ago now we were at another hearing for a Kelowna new licence. I worked with another group at that
time. Pattison had been approved a
previous flip from AM to FM based on what they were doing as an MOR talk
station in the market and all the groups had filed their applications for the
upcoming hearing weeks before. They did
do the flip to FM, but it came on as a country station.
5370 I was involved in
one of the groups that had applied for country, as had another which did make a
late hour change for format as well.
5371 MR. KIRK: I think what this says is in four cases cited
recently in the last year applicants which have requested flips and stated that
they would stay with formats have not necessarily followed through and
relaunched or launched their FM signals in the same format. That really brings our concern to the fore.
5372 As you have seen
through this process, new applicants have approached the market with
vigour. Substantial time and capital
have been expended in putting together research and applications and technical
briefs and the new applications, the three new applicants for Guelph, are all
looking forward to a decision. Hopefully
one will get a new licence to grow and enhance broadcasting and really enhance
the Canadian broadcasting system.
5373 We have spent a
lot of time and money and the point I'm making here is that we are completely
at risk under this current system and of course where granted an AM to FM
conversion they could, if they chose to ‑‑ I'm not saying that
they are going to, but they could if they chose to be on the air a lot faster
than the new applicants who would get a licence if the decision came out in the
same day. They obviously have facilities
in the market and engineering staff and could probably be on the air very, very
quickly with their FM compared to the new applicants who have to develop from
scratch.
5374 We understand that
the Commission doesn't regulate formats, you don't have that ability, however
we would suggest the following.
5375 If one were to do
the following:
5376 If a new licence
was to be granted for Guelph, we would recommend that the Commission either
defer or deny Corus until the start up of the new licensee. That's one alternative.
5377 Or if it was felt
that Corus had a good case ‑‑ and they certainly made their
application and seemed to have a reasonable case, and this is the second angle
on this ‑‑ that there be a no head start rule on the
conversion applicant. In other words,
that the new applicant was able to start if you granted a new licence and
granted Corus a licence, or a change of licence to go to FM, that there would
be a 90‑day no head start rule that could be written into that decision,
which would allow the new applicant to get established and start and launch the
station.
5378 As you know, when
you launch you put your best foot forward, you do the big advertising campaign
and get the buzz in the market for a new entity and I believe 90 days would
probably be a fair timeframe in which to allow the new applicant to launch and
get established in the market, get the format known in the market and then the
conversion could take place.
5379 In that way, the
new licences I think could feel some comfort that you wouldn't get scooped or
cut off at the pass, if you would, because everyone has put together their best
ideas, they have done the research, we have given you our best shot and what
the new licence could yield in the market and to have that come off I think
would just be a travesty to the new applicants for licences in Guelph.
5380 So I think either
by deferring the decision or if you make the decision impose a 90‑day no
start rule so the new applicant is able to get up and running before the
conversion could take place would solve that in the light of not being able to
say you have to stay in that format if you convert.
5381 So that was our
concern and hopefully an idea for a constructive solution to this, that we
keep the new applicants on side and be fair.
5382 Thank you.
5383 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
5384 We don't have any
further questions. Thank you.
5385 This ends the
proceeding for today. It also ends the
Phase II of this public hearing.
5386 We well start
tomorrow morning at 9:00 with Phase III.
‑‑‑ Whereupon
the hearing adjourned at 1750,
to resume on Thursday, October 23, 2008 at
0900 / L'audience est ajournée à 1750,
pour reprendre le jeudi 23 octobre 2008 à 0900
REPORTERS
____________________ ____________________
Beverley Dillabough Jean Desaulniers
____________________ ____________________
Sue Villeneuve Fiona
Potvin
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