ARCHIVÉ - Transcription - Winnipeg, Manitoba - 2002-02-07
Cette page Web a été archivée dans le Web
L’information dont il est indiqué qu’elle est archivée est fournie à des fins de référence, de recherche ou de tenue de documents. Elle n’est pas assujettie aux normes Web du gouvernement du Canada et elle n’a pas été modifiée ou mise à jour depuis son archivage. Pour obtenir cette information dans un autre format, veuillez communiquer avec nous.
Offrir un contenu dans les deux langues officielles
Prière de noter que la Loi sur les langues officielles exige que toutes publications gouvernementales soient disponibles dans les deux langues officielles.
Afin de rencontrer certaines des exigences de cette loi, les procès-verbaux du Conseil seront dorénavant bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience et la table des matières.
Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le participant à l'audience.
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
FOR THE CANADIAN RADIO‑TELEVISION AND
TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION
TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DU
CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION
ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES
SUBJECT / SUJET:
Multiple broadcasting applications & BROADCASTING applications
further to Public Notice 2001-79 "Call for
applications for a broadcasting licence TO CARRY ON A RADIO PROGRAMMING
UNDERTAKING TO SERVE WINNIPEG, MANITOBA".
MULTIPLES DEMANDES EN RADIOdiFFUSION ET DEMANDES EN radiodiffusion
suite à l'avis public CRTC 2001-79 "APPEL DE DEMANDES DE
LICENCE DE RADIODIFFUSION VISANT L'EXPLOITATION D'UNE ENTREPRISE DE
PROGRAMMATION DE RADIO POUR DESSERVIR WINNIPEG (MANITOBA)".
HELD
AT: TENUE À:
Winnipeg
Convention Centre Winnipeg Convention Centre
PanAm
Room Salle PanAm
375
York Avenue 375, avenue York
Winnipeg,
Manitoba Winnipeg (Manitoba)
7 February, 2002 le 7 février 2002
Volume 4
Transcripts
In
order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages
Act,
transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be
bilingual
as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members
and
staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of
Contents.
However,
the aforementioned publication is the recorded
verbatim
transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in
either
of the official languages, depending on the language
spoken
by the participant at the public hearing.
Transcription
Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les
langues
officielles, les procès‑verbaux pour le Conseil
seront
bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la
liste des
membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à
l'audience
publique ainsi que la table des matières.
Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte
rendu
textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est
enregistrée
et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues
officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le
participant à l'audience publique.
Canadian
Radio‑television and
Telecommunications Commission
Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des
télécommunications canadiennes
Transcript / Transcription
Multiple broadcasting applications & BROADCASTING applications
further to Public Notice 2001-79 "Call for
applications for a broadcasting licence TO CARRY ON A RADIO PROGRAMMING
UNDERTAKING TO SERVE WINNIPEG, MANITOBA".
MULTIPLES DEMANDES EN RADIODIFFUSION ET DEMANDES EN radiodiffusion
suite à l'avis public CRTC 2001-79 "APPEL DE DEMANDES DE
LICENCE DE RADIODIFFUSION VISANT L'EXPLOITATION D'UNE ENTREPRISE DE
PROGRAMMATION DE RADIO POUR DESSERVIR WINNIPEG (MANITOBA)".
BEFORE / DEVANT:
Barbara Cram Regional Commissioner for Manitoba and Saskatchewan
/
Conseillère
régionale pour le Manitoba et le Saskatchewan
Ronald
Williams Commissioner
/ Conseiller
Andrew
Cardozo Commissioner
/ Conseiller
ALSO
PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:
Joe
Aguiar Hearing
Manager / Gérant de
l'audience
Gary
Krushen Secretary
/ secrétaire
Peter
McCallum Legal
Counsel /
conseiller
juridique
HELD
AT: TENUE
À:
Winnipeg
Convention Centre Winnipeg Convention
Centre
PanAm
Room Salle PanAm
375
York Avenue 375,
avenue York
Winnipeg,
Manitoba Winnipeg
(Manitoba)
7 February, 2002 le
7 février 2002
Volume 4
TABLE OF CONTENTS / TABLE DES MATIÈRES
PARA
NO.
PHASE
II
INTERVENTION
BY / INTERVENTION PAR
Craig Broadcast Systems, Jennifer Strain, 3157
Cam Cowie
Rangachari Venkataraman 3469
Islamic Social Services Association Inc., 3503
Shahina Siddiqui
Family Life Network, Delbert Enns 3521
Calvary Temple, Bruce Martin 3559
Springs Church, Leon Fontaine 3571
Christian Radio Manitoba Ltd., Wade Kehler 3590
Lighthouse Mission, Ken McGhie 3612
Jewish National Fund of Canada, Rami Kleinmann 3622
Jewish Federation of Winnipeg, Shelley Faintuch 3639
PHASE
III
REPLY BY / RÉPLIQUE PAR
Trinity Television Inc. 781 /
3687
Winnipeg,
Manitoba /
Winnipeg
(Manitoba)
--- Upon resuming on Thursday, February 7, 2002, at
0900 / L'audience reprend le jeudi 7 février 2002 à 0900
3153
THE
CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. I see you have the same problem as I
do. Commissioner Williams just poured
me a glass of water and I don't think I'll ask him again.
3154
COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: There's a method to my
madness.
3155
THE
CHAIRPERSON: Maybe that was purposeful,
yes. I just wanted, before we go any
further, to say that decision CRTC 2000-218-1 is the correction decision to the
initial decision, 2000-218 with the 60/50 Cancon, just so everyone is
aware. Mr. Secretary.
3156
MR.
SECRETARY: Thank you, Madam Chair. The first intervener this morning to the
application by Trinity Television Incorporated is Craig Broadcasting Systems
Inc. Ms. Strain, please proceed when you're
ready.
INTERVENTION
/ INTERVENTION
3157
MR.
COWIE: Good morning Madam Chair,
Commissioners, Ladies and Gentlemen. My
name is Cam Cowie and I'm the general manager of CHMI-TV, otherwise known as
A-Channel, Manitoba. I'm also the
vice-president of revenue management for the Craig Group of television
stations. With me today is Jennifer
Strain, vice-president of corporate and regulatory affairs for Craig.
3158
We are
here today with respect to the application by Trinity for a new religious
broadcasting service.
3159
We want
to say at the outset that we do not doubt the sincerity or the commitment of
Trinity to develop a channel with a religious mandate, but we do believe that
the service they have proposed will have an impact on the incumbent
broadcasters.
3160
Our primary
concern with the application is that the Winnipeg market has been and continues
to be in decline with shrinking audiences, fragmentation, reductions in market
television advertising expenditures and drastic declines in PBIT, it struggles
to support the existing players. At
this time the market cannot support the absorption of an additional television
service.
3161
We become
even more concerned when we hear of Trinity's plan to air such programs as "60
Minutes" and "Dateline". These are the
same programs that A-Channel stations currently sublicense from Global, and
their inclusion in Trinity's schedule would exacerbate the impact were its
service to be licensed.
3162
In other
words, religious or not, if Trinity is selling advertising in popular Hollywood
programming, they are no different than any other conventional broadcaster.
3163
This is
not the case of one broadcaster crying the blues in an otherwise healthy
market. All of the private broadcasters
have put forth opinion and evidence that the Winnipeg market is too fragile to
support another entrant at this time.
Indeed, we did not oppose, nor did other applicants or incumbent
broadcasters, Trinity's successful application in the Fraser Valley because we
believed the Vancouver EM to be robust at the time and that the market could
absorb additional entrants.
3164
We heard
Mr. Neufeld refer yesterday to Craig's remarks at the Toronto hearing to the
effect that the Commission cannot be expected to concern itself with a
station's "inability to manage." With
respect, the comments we made in Toronto were in an entirely different
context. They were made with respect to
one intervener who was under-performing relative to their competitors in a
market where revenues were growing and average profit margins were very
healthy.
3165
We are
not alone, and Winnipeg is anything but a healthy market. In fact, according to the Commission's
statistical financial summaries, only the Saskatchewan market appears to be
worse off. Revenues in Manitoba have
been declining since 1998 as have profit margins. The annual growth rate for PBIT margins between '97 and 2000 was
a negative 19.3 percent. The Financial
Post Comparison of Population Growth and Retail Sales in Top 10 Canadian
Markets for 1997-2002 shows Winnipeg's population growth to the be the lowest
of the top 10 and its retail sales to be under-performing as compared to the
national average. These figures all
speak to the reduced demand by advertisers for this market. This is not a blip that will correct
itself. There are systemic problems in
this market.
3166
Madam
Chair, I joined Craig in 1991 as the general sales manager for the Manitoba
Television Network as A-Channel Manitoba was then called. In '97 I became the general sales manager
for all of the Craig television stations and was based in Alberta. I have since returned to Winnipeg in hopes
of helping turn things around here. I
know this market; I know the significant challenges being faced by all the
local stations here, and of course, in particular by Craig.
3167
Over the
past for years I have witnessed a number of disappointing changes in the
market. Winnipeg has slipped from the
priority market it once was.
Advertisers drop it from national buys with more frequency than in the
past. This is likely attributable to
the sluggish retail sales and population growth as compared to other high
demand markets.
3168
Overall,
audiences have declined, while at the same time, share of tuning to other than
incumbent stations has increased.
3169
The
market CPRs have not increased at the same pace as other Canadian markets,
which is further evidenced in support of the fact that this is not a demand
market.
3170
In short,
the market is fragmented. The selling
costs have stayed virtually the same and the dollars spent have shrunk.
3171
Before
Jennifer concludes our remarks this morning, I would like to shed some light on
the notion floated yesterday that there are no opportunities for religious
programming on conventional stations.
It's of interest to note that two of the proposed barter programs
Trinity identifies in its application, "Church of the Rock" and "Calvary
Temple," currently air weekly on A-Channel.
In addition, Trinity's signature program, "It's A New Day," has aired
for the last four years on our A-Channel stations in Alberta. And when Trinity wanted to produce and test
a new concept, "Light Talk," it was A-Channel that found it a home on the
schedule. We have always been receptive
to and made time blocks available for Canadian religious programming.
3172
MS.
STRAIN: We note both that both CTV and
Global intervened in writing but have not appeared in person. We are here in person because the situation
for our stations here in Manitoba is unique.
3173
First, we
obviously don't have the strength and size of those companies or the same
wherewithal to cross-subsidize weaker markets like Brandon and Winnipeg across
many profitable assets. We have two
stations in Manitoba that provide province-wide coverage of rural and local
issues, and these services are essentially subsidized solely by our two Alberta
stations.
3174
Second,
Winnipeg is the only market in the country where Global and CTV have combined
their sales forces, which gives them a distinct advantage in the market and
would probably lessen the impact on them of Trinity's being licensed and
increase the impact on us.
3175
Third, we
are the only local station in the market not being carried by DTH
distributors. While we realize this is
the subject of another process, we raise it here because it is significantly
impacting our ratings and revenues.
Tuning to satellite in this market is 13 percent and growing.
3176
And
fourth, we don't want to be competing for U.S. network programs with Trinity,
but it appears that may be the situation we are faced with if they are
licensed.
3177
In that
regard, while we appreciate the spirit in which Trinity made its commitment not
to compete with the local stations for American programming, we're not clear as
to how that commitment would work in practice.
We are not sure that the CRTC can regulate what programs Trinity buys,
only what it broadcasts, and it appears clear that Trinity does have plans to
utilize American mainstream programs.
We, like you, Madam Chair and Commissioners, have been unable to come up
with a perfect solution for when a Hollywood program fits on a religious channel
and when it doesn't.
3178
Finally,
we wanted to mention that Trinity's commitment to reinvest profits from the
broadcast of U.S. programming into Canadian programming is essentially the
model that conventional broadcasters in this market operate under now.
3179
Madam
Chair, to summarize, in addition the existing challenges that we have outlined
above, we are looking at the possibility of a new radio entrant. When the prospect of a new religious service
is also thrown into the mix, one that plans to air some of the very same
programs that comprise the core of our prime time schedule, we believe the
benefits of licensing Trinity must be weighed against the costs. In this case, we certainly appreciate that
Trinity has its supporters, but we have no broad studies of consumer demand and
no advertiser studies to support the desirability of licensing a new religious
service at this time. There is,
however, the distinct possibility of harm to incumbents in a market that can
ill afford to handle to take on that challenge as well.
3180
We thank
you and the Commission staff for your time and assistance and would be pleased
to answer any questions you may have.
3181
THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Commissioner Cardozo.
3182
COMMISSIONER
CARDOZO: Thank you, Madam Chair, Mr.
Cowie, Ms. Strain. Thank you for your
presentation this morning. I'm going to
spend a little time, as may be others, going through some of the issues because
the issues you raise are fairy serious and we look at them very seriously. What I'd like to do is cover three areas: the state of the market, the definition of
religious programming, and then the competitive aspects of your service with
Trinity if they were to be licensed.
3183
I take it
you heard their opening comments yesterday and have a text of their
presentation?
3184
MS.
STRAIN: Yes, we do, Commissioner.
3185
COMMISSIONER
CARDOZO: Because I want to refer to it
a little later on. Just on the market,
tell me your thoughts about this, because -- I don't want to go into the radio
part that we've had because it's not part of this discussion ‑‑
only to say that what was quite noticeable was that all the applicants were of
the view that the Winnipeg market can sustain new players -- they were talking
about radio -- but they did not see it in the dire circumstances that you've suggested
today. And I think in general we
find -- or I will make my observation that I find quite often that an
applicant for a new station, television or radio, will always make the case
that there is room in the market, that the market has aspects of robustness or
is robust, and those who don't want it to be licensed, who are incumbents, will
say, no, no, no, things are a lot worse.
So I have to ask you, is this the normal pattern that we see quite
regularly where the incumbents say, "No, the market can't take another player
at this time or in the future"?
3186
MR.
COWIE: Oh, I think that's 100 percent
correct. In all of the hearings I've
been to I've never seen an incumbent broadcaster jump up and down and say,
"Come on in," and I've never seen a broadcaster competing for a licence
indicate that the market was too soft for them to be there.
3187
So I
think what we're trying to do, and what the Commission is responsible for, is
to take a look at the information provided on both sides and weigh the public
good against the public bad. In most
cases here we've used the CRTC's own financial records. The market is declining. I mean, it's right from the website where we
pulled the information that between '96 and now, the market has declined. It hasn't grown. So it's not a blip caused by September 11th. It's not a downturn. I mean, two years ago in most of the country
the economy was booming along and continues to boom along in some of the
marketplaces. So we're looking at
Manitoba as an entity and it's just not as rosy as it has been here.
3188
I think
Mr. Neufeld made a comment yesterday that this has never been a boom-or-bust
province, and I would agree wholeheartedly with that, but the cold hard facts
is that it's been in decline. I mean,
with PBIT declines of 35 percent over the last two years, it would be tough to
paint this market anything but in decline.
3189
COMMISSIONER
CARDOZO: When do you see things
bottoming out and turning up? The
Conference Board of Canada certainly revised its forecast downwards recently, I
think it was in October. Others point
out that Winnipeg, unlike many other markets, is quite diverse. The economy is quite diverse and therefore
it is somewhat recession proof. Do you
have, in terms of the economic forecast, things that you've looked at, what's
the longer term, say five years and seven years down the road?
3190
MR.
COWIE: Well, I think what we would hope
for is to reverse the decline and start to move back into a slow growth mode,
but I mean, like I said, the decline has not been a quick up and a quick
down. I mean, it's been a prolonged
decline in this marketplace. And a lot
of it has to do with -- you know, whether it's Proctor and Gamble or General
Motors or a local mom-and-pop store here, if the sales are not warranted, then
unfortunately advertisers pull back out of the marketplace. We have little or no control over that. You know, as best we try to position our
business and as best to try to position it competitively against radio and
newspaper and so on, when the sales fall off, so do the advertising dollars
because at the end of day that's how they're supported.
3191
COMMISSIONER
CARDOZO: Yes.
3192
MR.
COWIE: So is there opportunity to move
forward? Please, I hope so. But is it going to be instantaneous? No, I don't think so.
3193
COMMISSIONER
CARDOZO: Yes. The reason I ask about the long terms is because we're obviously
licensing -- when we license a player we expect and we hope they're going to be
in the market for the long term, so you're looking at five, seven, 10 years
down the road, and I guess part of the judgment we have to make is how deep, or
how -- I mean, you're forecasting, and some will say guessing, but --
3194
MR.
COWIE: Yes.
3195
COMMISSIONER
CARDOZO: -- but to some extent, how
long is this downturn going to be, and is there prospect for it to turn
around? In the past week, I think, the
markets have turned around in North America.
There are new forecasts coming out of different sources all the time and
our job is to make our judgment on that.
3196
Let me
ask you about CHMI-TV. You've talked
about your own declining revenues. What
do you put that down to? There are
certain factors where you've had change within A-Channel as you're re‑branding
from MTN to A-Channel in moving from a rural to an urban area, and the
competition that Global and CTV and whether they've bought some of the more
popular programming which then affects your ratings. Are those factors as well?
3197
MR.
COWIE: Absolutely. I mean, it's probably the factor.
3198
COMMISSIONER
CARDOZO: Which one? I mentioned --
3199
MR. COWIE: The fragmentation of market audience and
relative positioning. I mean, I looked
at the figures from seven years ago, six years ago, when the incumbent stations
here all enjoyed pretty much an equal share in terms of audience delivery. Now, that obviously changes inside the
marketplace, who has the hot program.
You know, we heard an advertiser and a convention on Monday, Moore
(phonetic), suggesting that they had bought sponsorship opportunities in this
obscure program named "Survivor" when it first came out, and had won from that
and so on. When you're number three in
the program trough or pecking order, it's pretty tough. I mean, we have to continually work on
reinventing the program schedule. So I
mean, that's how you survive in a marketplace. In terms of what you can deliver, it's the most important thing.
3200
COMMISSIONER
CARDOZO: Okay. In terms of fragmentation, there was a
comment yesterday ‑‑ it could have been Mr. Neufeld who talked
about the pie, and he said you're not only talking about growing the pie, but
perhaps creating a new pie for --
3201
MR.
COWIE: Well, I heard --
3202
COMMISSIONER
CARDOZO: -- for religious programming
service.
3203
MR.
COWIE: Right.
3204
COMMISSIONER
CARDOZO: Do you see that there are
markets out there that you just couldn't have because there are certain
advertisers who just may not be interested in you or the other services but
would be interested in a different kind of service?
3205
MR.
COWIE: There are definitely
opportunities for environment, without question. The problem with -- and I won't go to growing the pie because you
would hope that an entrant that comes in with additional sales people and so on
would help grow the pie. When you talk
about creating a new one, I mean, I looked at two of the areas where the money
is coming from and it's going to be some of my dough they use to make the crust
for the pie. That would be programs
like "Church of the Rock" that we were the first broadcaster to have on. We've had a longstanding relationship with
them. We moved them from Winnipeg to
Brandon. We have now moved them into
the Calgary and Edmonton marketplaces.
We have a contract with them that runs to the end of the programming
year. Apparently we both think we're
going to be airing "Church of the Rock," but one of us will be wrong. We're not sure which one yet.
3206
And will
a religious broadcaster who has had access to the conventional side, move over
the religious side because of environment?
Maybe. Maybe they'll move over
because of price. Maybe they'll run it
in both to increase audience depth. But
the create-a-pie philosophy, that's a new one, but like I said, I mean, the
dough, I think, and maybe some of the filling, is going go come from the
incumbent broadcasters.
3207
COMMISSIONER
CARDOZO: Well, sometimes, you know, you
just can't get a pie plate that's big enough and you have to start again.
3208
MR.
COWIE: Well, we could always use more
pie.
3209
COMMISSIONER
CARDOZO: No cherry on the top?
3210
MR.
COWIE: Whipped cream, nuts.
3211
COMMISSIONER
CARDOZO: Tell me your thoughts about
what the role of the Commission is, vis-à-vis protecting incumbents, and in
this case where a new player or a new applicant is wanting to do programming
that is different from what's available in the market. You mentioned in your opening that there
were two or three programs that you carry currently, and I'm well aware of
that, but they're looking at more than two or three programs. They're looking for a much larger quantity
of religious programming and nobody can present that at this time.
3212
So when
somebody is offering to fill a niche or a need that's there, what is the role
of the Commission, either in general or, Ms. Strain, from a legal perspective,
in terms of protecting incumbents? And
I recognize that we want to see strong, viable players. We're also in favour of competition. So where do you draw that line, the two
objectives?
3213
MS.
STRAIN: I think that's the million
dollar question, Commissioner Cardozo.
That's the issue --
3214
COMMISSIONER
CARDOZO: Well, you know what I said to
somebody earlier, when you say something like that you get my vote, but I --
3215
MS.
STRAIN: Well, I'm not sure -- do I need
a vote this time? No, but seriously,
that is a good question, and as I -- to summarize this intervention, I guess
that's what I was weighing. I mean,
we're a little bit out of our comfort zone being here in some ways. I mean, we listened to the presentation
yesterday by Trinity, and when we say we don't doubt, we do understand they're
sincere about this and we know what they're trying to do.
3216
So I
guess the job for you -- and you know, you hate saying this, but there is no
tried-and-true formula. I think you
have to look at these on a case-by-case basis.
The reason we're here is because we do a ton of local programming in
Winnipeg. We've been in Winnipeg for years
and years and years. We haven't cut
local service. And this market in
particular is one of the worst in Canada.
That's one of the reasons we're here.
3217
So you
weigh that against what Trinity's proposing and if you're confident that they
have established clear demand, and that they've established advertiser demand
-- and I'm not sure that I'm clear on that from reading their application. I don't doubt that there's people who are
interested in the service, but you know, we don't have the usual tools we
usually have in an application like this to sort of judge that a little more
carefully. I think it's a balancing act
for you and for us.
3218
COMMISSIONER
CARDOZO: Thank you. I'd hoped you'd have more guidance than that
on these tough questions, but that's an honest answer.
3219
Have you
had a look at the Trinity proposal? I
want to move to definition of religious programming, and the Trinity opening
comments yesterday on pages 12 and 13 had guidelines about how you would judge
a program to be religious or not, which sort of go over and above the section
in our religious policy which Madam Chair had read out yesterday. What's your sense of these proposals on page
12 and 13?
3220
MS.
STRAIN: Well, first of all, there's a
couple of interesting things I just wanted to point out. The first is that I understand the
definition of a religious program is in your policy. There's also a slightly different definition in the new program
categories which came out a year or two ago, which I have tabbed here. I've had occasion to be reviewing the
program categories lately. So the
definition, for instance, of a Category 4 religious program is "programs
dealing with religion and religious teachings as well as discussions of the
human spiritual condition," which I think is a little bit different than what's
in the policy.
3221
COMMISSIONER
CARDOZO: It's a bit more of a
traditional definition.
3222
MS.
STRAIN: Yes.
3223
COMMISSIONER
CARDOZO: Okay. Do you think we should be looking at the two
together, or --
3224
MS.
STRAIN: Well --
3225
COMMISSIONER
CARDOZO: -- is it your view that one of
those should take precedence over the other?
3226
MS.
STRAIN: Well, I guess just by virtue of
the fact that your program categories are more recent and came out as a result
of a public process, that perhaps that has superseded the religious
policy. I'm not sure that they
contradict each other, but they aren't exactly the same.
3227
COMMISSIONER
CARDOZO: I'm not sure they were
intended to supersede. I think the
program categories --
3228
MS.
STRAIN: Well, they may not have been.
3229
COMMISSIONER
CARDOZO: -- are probably just a briefer
version --
3230
MS.
STRAIN: Yes, they may not have been.
3231
COMMISSIONER
CARDOZO: -- of the policy.
3232
MS.
STRAIN: Well, that could be. But I didn't have this written brief
yesterday. I was here for the presentation,
so I'd like to just take another look at it.
But I can tell you that I spent a lot of time laying awake last night
and have spent some time over the last week trying to figure out this very
issue, which is how do you judge -- and you're probably not going to like my
answer on this one either. But you
know, I can see, certainly, that there may be a place for a "Leave it to
Beaver" or a "Little House on the Prairie" on a religious station, given the
context of the station and the program's strong sort of family, moral, ethical
values. I have a much harder time with
"60 Minutes" and "Dateline," and somebody told me, or I read somewhere that
there's now a Bible study for "The Simpsons," and I have a real hard time with
categorizing "The Simpsons" as a religious program. So I was trying to think of, you know, is there a way that you
can say that the defining theme of the program has to be spiritual or moral or
ethical, and it's very difficult.
3233
COMMISSIONER
CARDOZO: So what is it that makes
"Little House on the Prairie" and "Leave it to Beaver" acceptable to you?
3234
MS.
STRAIN: Commissioner Cardozo, just the
fact that I used to watch it and I know what it's about, and it's --
3235
COMMISSIONER
CARDOZO: Well, do you watch "ER"?
3236
MS.
STRAIN: -- almost a smell test. Yes, I do watch "ER" and I thought that that
was an interesting example. But it's
almost a gut feel. You know, I don't
think "ER," "Simpsons," "60 Minutes," "Dateline" would necessarily fall into
that category. I can see how some of
these other shoes certainly might.
3237
COMMISSIONER
CARDOZO: Is there a way to -- maybe
I'll give you a minute to take a look at that.
3238
MS.
STRAIN: Yes, thank you.
3239
MR.
COWIE: While she's doing that, I mean,
I look at not so much the program -- and I understand the concept of the
wrap-around and designing it in such a way to provoke thought or initiate
discussion. We just came back from a
conference from the Television Bureau, a sales conference in Montreal, and one
of the best sales trainers, Chris Lytle, uses a similar technique. I mean, part of his presentation was using
segments from "The Music Man" to show the goods and bads and evils of
salespeople and atonement and so on. He
used those snippets to create discussion, to drive home a point, but he didn't
make us sit through a two-and-a-half-hour musical to get there. So I understand the component of trying to
initiate dialogue, but do you have to watch all of "60 Minutes" in order to
initiate dialogue? Rush Limbaugh, Larry
King, those types of people, they don't make you watch an entire speech from
Capitol Hill to initiate dialogue, and that's the concern that I have, is the
guise of the wrap-around. I understand
the concept and the discussions about morality and religion and good and bad
and evil and so on, but I find it a little tenuous at best, to --
3240
COMMISSIONER
CARDOZO: Okay. Do you have sense of, if we were to license
them, how -- or even from what you've looked at in terms of their Fraser Valley
station ‑‑ whether you think there's a way to -- I mean, say
we were to accept this, and our definition as being the base, but their
suggestions here on page 12 and 13 of yesterday's comments, even then you've
got -- no matter what kind of guidelines you draw up, you would still have to
make a judgment, and I think different people will come down differently on
those things.
3241
Is there
a way to make a judgment on that? I was
just floating an idea yesterday of having an outside committee, a third-party
committee, where people could challenge programs like that, and then this --
the responsibility would still rest with the Commission if people weren't
satisfied, but you would have at least an interim mechanism, or a mechanism a
little away from us where we wouldn't have to get into all the nitty
gritty ‑‑ of an outside committee who could look at that kind
of stuff?
3242
And this
is an interesting issue that comes up periodically with various kinds of
specialized services. There are people
who feel that (a) you're getting into my turf, or they're original supporters
of that concept who feel they're straying from the original concept that they
supported and that there's a dumbing down going on in order to reach a larger
market. I'm not suggesting what
Trinity's done is dumbing down, but certainly of mainstreaming their service,
some people might say it. I think just
as a competitor might be concerned about that, a supporter of the service could
equally have concerns, and where could they go?
3243
MS.
STRAIN: I was interested in that
discussion yesterday about the concept of an independent committee. Only as I understood it yesterday, I thought
it was being discussed as something that would kick in once there was a
complaint. I'm not sure that's the best
way to go, first of all because I don't think generally broadcasters like to be
launching complaints, but also because it's not maybe the most practical
solution. You know, if Trinity goes and
purchases a program and enters into a licence agreement and then gets a
complaint about it, they may have spent money.
You know, perhaps if you had a process like that, that the service went
through for ‑‑ you know, anything it bought from Hollywood
would have to be vetted by this independent committee prior to going to air,
that might be a more practical approach to it.
3244
COMMISSIONER
CARDOZO: Okay, thanks. In terms of pages 12 and 13, do you have any
suggestions about how definitions could be tightened up? Well, maybe I'll carry on and if any come to
mind while you're here, you can voice those.
3245
MS.
STRAIN: Yes. I mean, I really have been thinking about this for a while. not
this specific language exactly but just how you put the barriers around
it. And the only thing I keep coming
back to is that maybe if there's language that says that morals or ethics have
to be the defining predominant theme of the program, maybe that helps to
clarify it a little bit.
3246
COMMISSIONER
CARDOZO: Well, number four says,
"Promote understanding and respect for religious differences;" number six,
"Tell stories dealing with religious or spiritual themes, events, morals or
characters."
3247
MS.
STRAIN: Yes. Well, I mean, according to this, I don't see where "60 Minutes"
would fit into here. It's not evident
to me where "60 Minutes" would fit in in here.
3248
COMMISSIONER
CARDOZO: Let me just quickly go through
a couple of things that were in the letter in response to your intervention
from Mr. Willard Thiessen, a letter dated September the 30th, and he's talking
here about "60 Minutes," "Dateline," "Primetime Thursday" at the bottom of page
10, and it says:
3249
The opportunity to sublicense
three of these programs arose because of the specific circumstances faced by an
existing broadcaster in the B.C. market.
3250
A little
bit further he says:
3251
We were not in a competitive
situation for the purchase of this programming, and we are quite certain that
the large media companies like CTV and Craig had the opportunity to purchase
these programs before the were offered to NOW TV.
3252
A couple
of paragraphs down he says:
3253
With this in mind, we reviewed
the content of each episode of the aforementioned four magazine programs over
the past year and found that virtually every episode included content which
would springboard naturally --
3254
And I
want to highlight these words.
3255
-- into questions and issues of
religious and spiritual concern. We
bought the serious on this basis.
3256
So using
the kind of words you just used, his view is that "into questions and issues of
religious and spiritual concern" justifies these programs.
3257
MS.
STRAIN: But that's not how I view "60
Minutes." I mean, it's an informative
program, and certainly there may be issues that relate to spirituality or
morals, but I mean, every day, every day we lead our lives within that sort of
context. As somebody said to me
yesterday, every -- there's three themes in Hollywood, good versus evil,
journeys of discovery, and I can't remember what the third one was. But I see "60 Minutes" as predominantly an
informative news magazine program, and I think you can have discussions about
issues that are in the news and relate them to spirituality, but maybe you
don't have to air an entire broadcast of "60 Minutes" in order to generate that
discussion.
3258
COMMISSIONER
CARDOZO: So the best of "60 Minutes" or
the most religious of "60 Minutes" would be a way of doing it? Let me ask you about the ‑‑
let's move to the competitive issue. If
there are programs, as they note on page 10 of this letter, that nobody else
wanted, that nobody else was purchasing ‑‑ now in this letter Mr.
Thiessen says they were of a religious and spiritual concern. But if they weren't that too strictly but in
a fairly general way, but they were programs that you and the other
broadcasters in this market were not interested in, do you have a problem with
that? So you're straying away from
religion, getting more into mainstream maybe.
There's the religious (inaudible -- off microphone) probably peripheral,
but nobody wants that programming, why shouldn't they have access to that?
3259
MS.
STRAIN: Our primary concern is the
impact. At the end of the day it's
another player in the market. Even if
it's a show that maybe we didn't bid on or weren't interested in, religious
service or not, what we're saying is that we don't think now is the right time
to be licensing a new television entrant.
So yes, in answer to your question we'd still be a little bit -- we'd
still be concerned.
3260
COMMISSIONER
CARDOZO: On page 11 of the comments
from yesterday, the middle of the page:
3261
. . . we are fully prepared to
commit by condition of licence not to compete with conventional local stations for
the purchase of programming.
3262
How does
that proposed condition of license strike you?
3263
MS.
STRAIN: Well, as we said, we appreciate
that commitment. Technically, I think
the only way that you can structure a condition of licence like that is to
limit what they broadcast, because you can't regulate what Global sells to
Trinity. I don't think you can regulate
what Trinity buys. I'm just trying to
remember back to the WIC hearing in which CHUM and Global had this arrangement
that Global wouldn't broadcast programming from the mini networks, and the way
that was translated in the decision was that it was a restriction on the
broadcasting of that program, because that's really the only -- that's where
your jurisdiction is, is in what we do on the air. So I appreciate that commitment, and I don't doubt ‑‑
3264
COMMISSIONER
CARDOZO: Well, if it was ‑‑
3265
MS.
STRAIN: But I don't know how you can
enforce it other than to put in the condition of licence that it's "thou shall
not broadcast."
3266
COMMISSIONER
CARDOZO: Well, I mean, if it was
purchased -- I mean, when we're looking at purchase, if it was purchase and
air, or air rather than purchase, as you say, we wouldn't be -- well, is it a
concern to you if they purchase programming for the purpose of keeping it from
you and they don't air it? Is that
something that happens a lot in the market?
3267
MS.
STRAIN: You know, that's not my biggest
concern with Trinity, I don't think. I
mean, conceivably that could happen, but I'm not --
3268
COMMISSIONER
CARDOZO: Okay. So the main thing is the airing of the
programs?
3269
MS.
STRAIN: Yes.
3270
COMMISSIONER
CARDOZO: If this focused on airing, you
would find this helpful?
3271
MS.
STRAIN: Yes. Then you get ‑‑
3272
COMMISSIONER
CARDOZO: Given that, what you're saying
is that you don't what them licensed at all, but if we were to ‑‑
3273
MS.
STRAIN: Yes. And then that brings you to the question, okay you won't
broadcast what? You won't broadcast ‑‑
3274
COMMISSIONER
CARDOZO: Well, they wouldn't compete
for programming with you or the other local broadcasters. So if "Little House on the Prairie" was of
interest to you, you would get, as I read this, first dibs on "Little House on
the Prairie," and then if you don't want it then it's theirs to pick up.
3275
MS.
STRAIN: I'm not sure that condition
does that.
3276
COMMISSIONER
CARDOZO: Well, it says the condition,
"not to compete with conventional local stations." Essentially it sounds to me that they would give everybody else
first dibs on any programming and they wouldn't compete.
3277
MS.
STRAIN: I'm just trying to explain
this.
3278
COMMISSIONER
CARDOZO: Can I ask you, have you
competed with them for programming in the past?
3279
MS.
STRAIN: I'm not sure. Cam?
3280
MR.
COWIE: I don't believe so.
3281
MS.
STRAIN: I don't think so.
3282
COMMISSIONER
CARDOZO: Okay.
3283
MS.
STRAIN: I don't think so. I mean, you know, they got that programming
for Fraser Valley, obviously, because we're not in that market.
3284
COMMISSIONER
CARDOZO: Right.
3285
MS.
STRAIN: But presumably if we'd had a
station in that market we would have acquired it.
3286
COMMISSIONER
CARDOZO: Right. Okay.
Yes. Okay, well those cover my
questions and I thank you very much for the help. Thanks, Madam Chair.
3287
THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Well, I have a few questions. I guess it comes down to your issues are
two: one, programming, and two, market
impact. Have I got it right?
3288
MR.
COWIE: (Inaudible -- off microphone)
3289
THE
CHAIRPERSON: On programming we then get
into the issue of what programming is and then the competitive issue of program
purchase and that sort of issue. I hear
you in what you were talking about in terms of you don't know what COL would
comfort you. In that, is there ever a
time in ‑‑ whenever, May, June ‑‑ when you're
purchasing programs, when you've got your schedule filled up?
3290
MS.
STRAIN: There is, and I'm not the programming
expert here at Craig, but the screenings are in May, typically, June.
3291
MR.
COWIE: Most of the conventionals will
release anywhere between mid to the end of May to early June. So by early June most broadcasters have
their schedules finalized. There still
may be some contracts that have not been inked and back and forth, but for the
most part they're out presenting them for the national up front.
3292
THE
CHAIRPERSON: In some ways I see this as
a paper tiger because I don't see Trinity having the economic might to fight
with Craig or Global and CTV for programming.
It's difficult for me. And do
you disagree with me on that?
3293
MS.
STRAIN: No, generally I don't. You know, but who knows? I mean, maybe if Global sees Trinity out in
Vancouver ‑‑ I mean, don't forget, Global's got two schedules that
it needs to run off across the country, so if it sees Trinity in Fraser Valley
and Trinity in Winnipeg, I mean, they might be able to enter into some
arrangement that ‑‑ I mean, I don't know, but it's possible.
3294
THE
CHAIRPERSON: Mm-hmm. So Trinity alone couldn't ‑‑
3295
MS.
STRAIN: No, probably not.
3296
THE
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Mm-hmm.
In a lot of ways, because of that, they're in a position where they
can't really start buying until you're finished anyway, you and the other
conventionals; would that be fair to say?
3297
MS.
STRAIN: Well, maybe. I don't ‑‑
3298
THE
CHAIRPERSON: I think there's stuff
around the edges, but I mean, you know ‑‑
3299
MS.
STRAIN: Yes.
3300
THE
CHAIRPERSON: ‑‑ if somebody
else pays more money, then they're, you know ‑‑
3301
MS.
STRAIN: Maybe. I don't know what sort of cash reserves
they're going to have available to them to go looking for this stuff. I mean, generally speaking I agree with what
you're saying, but I don't know.
3302
THE
CHAIRPERSON: So if instead of the
"won't purchase," if we said "will not be able to purchase until after
mid-June," or some ‑‑ I'm not familiar with purchasing terms, but
you've used a term, "release date," or until after the purchasing had been
completed or substantially completed by the conventionals, would that give you
the comfort that you would need in terms of that issue?
3303
MS.
STRAIN: That ‑‑
3304
THE
CHAIRPERSON: I know there's the issue
of ‑‑
3305
MS.
STRAIN: Right. Right.
3306
THE
CHAIRPERSON: ‑‑ what is
religious ‑‑
3307
MS.
STRAIN: Yes.
3308
THE
CHAIRPERSON: ‑‑ and market
impact of that, you know, but ‑‑
3309
MS.
STRAIN: Market impact, yes. I mean, that would, Commissioner Cram. I'm not sure that that doesn't create big
headaches for you as a regulator. I
mean, does that mean you're going to start reviewing their purchase
contracts? You know, it opens up maybe
a bit of Pandora's box.
3310
THE
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Yes.
It seems to me we always stick our heads in hornets' nests ‑‑
3311
MS.
STRAIN: Yes.
3312
THE
CHAIRPERSON: ‑‑ in a lot of
ways. And I understand that
concern. Then the next issue is the
programming has gone beyond religious, and I confess, before this hearing I
thought a lot about religious, and we've heard interestingly enough through
this hearing a couple of definitions that I sort of want to run by. One is, and Mr. Thiessen used it yesterday,
programming that has consequences in it.
You know, you do wrong, there are consequences. I don't see any resounding ‑‑
3313
MS.
STRAIN: I think every show I watch ‑‑
3314
THE
CHAIRPERSON: Has that?
3315
MS.
STRAIN: ‑‑ has that in it,
is my view. And some may take a few
episodes.
3316
MR.
COWIE: I would agree with
Jennifer. I mean, from "The
Flintstones," you know, there was consequences, to a movie like "Boiler Room"
or whatever. I mean, it's all about
consequences. If there was no
consequences in any program, I doubt you'd have a beginning, middle and an end.
3317
THE
CHAIRPERSON: But what if I crafted on
to that, "constructive and positive"?
3318
MR.
COWIE: It still defines "The
Flintstones".
3319
THE
CHAIRPERSON: We heard a couple of days
ago about, in radio, one of the individuals said that Christian programming,
religious programming gives "the answer."
In terms of if, you know, there's a problem, alcoholism, everything,
that it gives "the answer." Does that ‑‑
no, that's not going to ‑‑
3320
MR.
COWIE: I think that one's ‑‑
3321
MS.
STRAIN: Oh, in that case I'm going to
subscribe to it, because ‑‑
3322
MR.
COWIE: Yes. You know, the weakest link gives the answer.
3323
THE
CHAIRPERSON: No. Well, no, but ‑‑ no, no,
but turning in a religious sense ‑‑
3324
MR.
COWIE: Yes, I know what ‑‑
yes.
3325
THE
CHAIRPERSON: ‑‑ you know, I
‑‑
3326
MR.
COWIE: It's hard.
3327
MS.
STRAIN: Gives the answer.
3328
THE
CHAIRPERSON: Mm-hmm.
3329
MR.
COWIE: I mean, I guess the basic
question, answer to what? I mean, if
it's ‑‑
3330
THE CHAIRPERSON: Oh, no, but, you know, when you're talking
religiously ‑‑
3331
MR.
COWIE: Yes.
3332
THE
CHAIRPERSON: ‑‑ you're
talking "the answer," and "the answer" is clearly God, you know. So it's not that it poses the problem, or
the issue, but it also provides the answer ‑‑
3333
MS.
STRAIN: Well ‑‑
3334
THE
CHAIRPERSON: ‑‑ and the
answer being, you know, God and religion.
3335
MS.
STRAIN: Well, maybe in a ‑‑
what was your first one, in a concrete and constructive way. In other words ‑‑
3336
THE
CHAIRPERSON: Constructive and concrete
way.
3337
MS.
STRAIN: ‑‑ it provides "the
answer" not in sort of a subtle way.
3338
THE
CHAIRPERSON: Mm-hmm. Yes.
Then the last one is, of course, we're talking moral and ethical and
family values. I confess, to me, that
this one is a tough one for me because I think Muslims have family values. I think Hindus have family values. I think that they are very similar to
Christian family values. And so I have
a problem distinguishing that as religious programming in a Christian sense, as
opposed to religious programming of normal family values. But we also have to recognize that in Vision
and in Crossroads we've accepted it. So
to me it appears that that's water under the bridge unless you can find a
distinction between what's proposed and happening in the Fraser Valley and what
we've done in Vision and in Crossroads.
3339
MS.
STRAIN: You know, I'm just thinking
here that Mr. Thiessen, I believe, yesterday, made the comment that a lot of
the older programs tend to have more of these family values, sort of moral
issues, concrete moral issues subsumed within them, and you know, maybe that's
a -- maybe limiting the age of the program.
Maybe that gets to your competitive issue too, which is they won't
license anything that's not 10 years old or ‑‑
3340
THE
CHAIRPERSON: Well, then we'll have
problems with Lonestar, won't we?
3341
MS.
STRAIN: And that certainly ‑‑
I mean, a lot of the programs we're airing on TV Land and all those programs
are older. A lot of the ones they're
talking about, "Lucy," "Andy Griffith" ‑‑
3342
THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
3343
MS.
STRAIN: ‑‑ you know, "Happy
Days" I think airs on Crossroads in Hamilton.
So, I mean, you know what our first position is, but maybe that's
another way of getting at both the competitive issue and, in some ways, the
religious issue.
3344
THE
CHAIRPERSON: So if programming 30 or 40
or 50 years ago shows family values, consequences, that are acceptable for
religious programming, why can't religious programming directly address the
contrary that's happening now, in other words, the lack of family values?
3345
MS.
STRAIN: Oh, I think they can in
discussion groups. And I guess what
we're trying to say is does that mean, you know, they could air ‑‑
an extreme example, obviously ‑‑ but so do you air an hour of
the "Sopranos" and then have a discussion about it? I mean, I think certainly religious programming should absolutely
address those things, but I don't think it has to do that and has to do that by
airing an hour‑long "Sopranos" or "Temptation Island." A bad example, I guess we air that show, but
‑‑ or a two-hour shoot-em-up movie, you know. I mean, I think ‑‑
3346
THE
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
3347
MS.
STRAIN: You know.
3348
THE
CHAIRPERSON: And yet I'm having a hard
time sort of distinguishing between we can use examples of the good for
programming, for religious programming, but we can't use ‑‑
not even examples, but real life ‑‑ because we're not talking about
"ER" and we're not talking about the "Sopranos" ‑‑ but you
can't use real life as an example of the contrary. You know, that these are bad family values or these are
problems. Where do you draw the
line? You know, a news clip of ‑‑
in Hamilton a couple of days after, as they call it, 9/11, some guy torched a
Hindu temple believing it to be a Muslim temple. Now, to me if there were a news magazine on that, I think that
would be ‑‑ and I'm only expressing my own opinion, but speak
about, you know, half an hour on what happened and the impact on the Hindus and
their inability to ‑‑ I mean, to me, that's custom made for a real
discussion on Christian issues and then maybe on balance programming. I have a hard time not being able to ‑‑
if family values fit in, then I have a hard time not seeing why this kind of
thing doesn't fit in.
3349
MS.
STRAIN: Well, I think it does fit
in. I mean, I think that example is a
fair one. Absolutely that would have a
place on a religious station, particularly if it's in the context of a
discussion about that very problem, you know, our not understanding Islam or
whatever. I guess I just ‑‑
I mean, what I think they're talking about if I understood them correctly is
airing "60 Minutes" and in the U.S. avails having a one-minute blurb on the
significance of one of the discussions in "60 Minutes," and I'm just not sure
that that is the same thing as talking about a local issue. It doesn't have to be local, but talking
about an important issue and then putting it in the context of a larger
discussion about what it means for us morally, ethically, religiously.
3350
THE
CHAIRPERSON: But they do that the next
hour.
3351
MS.
STRAIN: I'm sorry?
3352
THE
CHAIRPERSON: Then they do that the next
hour. They have a phone-in and that's
precisely what they do. You know, I'm
having a hard time sort of seeing where the line can be drawn.
3353
MS.
STRAIN: As am I.
3354
THE
CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
3355
MS.
STRAIN: I mean, I understand your
dilemma because I've ‑-
3356
THE
CHAIRPERSON: Mm-hmm.
3357
MS.
STRAIN: ‑‑ been thinking
about it as well. You know, it's like
educational programming. That's another
one.
3358
THE
CHAIRPERSON: Isn't it? Yes.
If we can go to the market issues. I hear you on the issues that are peculiar to Winnipeg. I do recall though in Vancouver at the
hearing when Trinity was licensed, Mr. Fecan was there, and of course the issue
of market impact by Trinity in Vancouver was on the table, and he was talking about
the impact of CTS having a share of one percent in Toronto, and he said on the
record it had no impact whatsoever. The
distinction then between a one share in Toronto and here is the fragmentation;
would that be your point?
3359
MR.
COWIE: Well, I guess, first of all,
you'd have to figure out what share we're talking about. I looked at the information provided and how
they developed their revenue projections.
I think in prime time they were talking about a four share between 6:00
p.m. and midnight, Monday to Saturday.
We have an eight, Global has a nine, CBC has an eight and I believe CTV
has an 18. So in the first year of
operation they're suggesting their share is exactly half of three of the
incumbent broadcasters, with CBC being the public, of course. But that's pretty significant. I mean, it wasn't a one share. They were talking about a one share in the
fringe opportunities, 6:00 a.m. to 6:00 p., but it was a .7 rating, which is,
you know, in this world of garnering and holding rating points and
fragmentation and time shifting, that's not a terrible level. So it was the four share, and that was in
year one, and climbing to a five and maybe even a six by year seven.
3360
Now, I
don't know whether there was some error in that calculation. I also looked back against the audience, but
to suggest that you would come in at half of the incumbent share and say there
is no impact is an anomaly at best.
3361
THE
CHAIRPERSON: You also raised the issue
of TMG, and would you agree that if TMG didn't exist ‑‑ hello, Mr.
Hanson ‑‑ that that would ameliorate your position somewhat here in
Winnipeg?
3362
MR.
COWIE: Well, I think what they've done
is a very smart marketing move, is they've combined and protected their
position in the market, in their inventory and so on. It gives them, I think, a better wherewithal to attract and hold
larger, maybe larger advertisers. And
we've continuously gone and tried to develop smaller advertisers and so
on. Those are probably the ones that
we're talking about. We're talking
about ‑‑ I don't think there's going to be a massive shift of
Procter and Gamble or General Motors to a religious broadcaster. But we're also active in securing
advertisers and advertising revenue from Steinback and Portage la Prairie and
so on. So I think that's the context
that we mean.
3363
THE
CHAIRPERSON: So it's not necessary TMG
that's, as you said in your address, that's the issue? It's the fact that Trinity may be hitting
the rural areas ‑‑
3364
MR.
COWIE: Yes, they would ‑‑
3365
THE
CHAIRPERSON: ‑‑ outside
Winnipeg?
3366
MR.
COWIE: I'm assuming they would go after
smaller advertisers, and we believe we would be more susceptible to that. You know, I hate to say this. I mean, I'm actually embarrassed to say
this, is we do have $25 spots in fringe time, and through Global and CTV they
probably also have $25 spots in fringe time somewhere, whether it be late night
or Sunday afternoon or Saturday afternoon, depending on the delivery of the
program that they're running. And I
understand only too well Mr. Neufeld's unit rate. We subscribe to that as well.
3367
I mean,
if an advertiser who is not using an agency or not versed in rating delivery
uses quite a simple thing, and it comes from the "Beverley Hillbillies"
study. It's called a "gosinto." They divide the number of spots into the
total dollars and that's the gosinto, and that's how they evaluate media. That's the type of thing that, you know, the
$20 spot or the $25 spot, and so on.
3368
I think
where their advantage is, or where their advantage would be if I was in the other
seat, would be in association, and are there enough Christian book stores and
religiously minded broadcasters and stuff to support a million dollars? I don't think so. It's going to have to come from other sources. And we spend a lot of time at these hearings
going through ‑‑ I forget the question, 5.12, or the description of
where the money is coming from.
3369
THE
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
3370
MR.
COWIE: We don't see that here. The description here is, well, 5 percent
will come from the incumbent broadcasters and 95 percent will come from
creating a new pie. And we're looking
at that going, well, they've already targeted two of my individual, and I'm
pretty sure Global would lose "It's a New Day." That probably already makes it more than 5 percent of the potential
revenue that they're talking about. So
to say that there's no impact I think is not ‑‑ and I mean,
that's the marketing that we hate the most when we're filing out the
application and when we're sitting in the front of the panel is, okay, well if
you say 40 here, then you've got to go ‑‑ I mean, wherever you put
it, somebody's not going to be happy.
This is the gutsiest ploy I ever seen to say that 95 percent is going to
come from somebody else. So I applaud
that, but I don't necessarily believe it.
3371
THE
CHAIRPERSON: So what about the argument
that Winnipeg is sort of a strong religious market and a strong giving
market? And that's true, they, you know
‑‑
3372
MR.
COWIE: Yes, from a donation perspective
and a donation of time, I wholeheartedly agree. My question is, is there enough outside of the donation scenario
to support a million dollars or $800,000 of revenue in the first year that is
not donation-related? Quite honestly
that's why we look at the U.S. program, whether it's "60 Minutes" or "Dateline"
or a program that has been left on the shelf.
I mean, we've made a program policy of taking programs that were left on
the shelf like "Picket Fences" and "Northern Exposure" and bringing them to
fruition, to have them basically, you know, once developed, taken away. We understand the philosophy. But certainly a U.S. program that has U.S.
promotion spilling in and so on, from the network, whether it's WB or FOX or
one of the three big ones, is traditionally going to deliver better audience
than a talk-about-it component. So I
mean, the revenue's going to be derived from the "60 Minutes" portion and the
ratings and so on. We understand the
concept. It's not a bad concept. It's how do you determine how it works. But it works better with U.S. fare, without
question.
3373
THE
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. So you agree that the donations won't be an
issue? The issue is the advertising?
3374
MR.
COWIE: Yes.
3375
THE
CHAIRPERSON: Yes? And clearly ‑‑ well, I
shouldn't say clearly. Trinity has said
that there is a strong religious niche here, and I think Steinback, that area,
it's a bit of a Bible belt; would you agree with me?
3376
MR.
COWIE: Yes.
3377
THE
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
3378
MR.
COWIE: You just have to run a bad movie
‑‑
3379
THE
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
3380
MR.
COWIE: ‑‑ and you don't
need a panel.
3381
THE
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
3382
MR.
COWIE: All you need's a receptionist.
3383
THE
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. And so I ask myself if there are viewers and
advertisers who, if they don't like one of your movies, get themselves right
out of the market until there is something that has the family values and the
consequences, and that they therefore are a new market?
3384
MR.
COWIE: You know, that's why we brought
up the fact that there are no demand studies.
I mean, clearly, when we go into a new marketplace, even if we
understand the marketplace, we go out and test the concept. I think Mr. Thiessen mentioned it yesterday
in one of his orations about preaching to the choir, that's who they talk to,
the choir. And we do not doubt for a
moment there are staunch supporters for Trinity. It's a great service.
It's a good part of the community.
But just as you're asking the question on the one hand, we would ask the
question on the other hand, if there are those people that are outside the
choir, why aren't they noted in demand and why haven't they been asked whether
they would support the service? We
understand the people that will support the service, will support the
service. What we haven't asked is if
you don't support the service, do you have any interest in watching religious? I mean even the smallest of the diginets did
some type of demand forecasting. And it
was unapparent here.
3385
MS.
STRAIN: And Madam Chair, if I
understood Mr. Thiessen correctly yesterday, those people sort of outside of
the ranks of the converted are the very people they're trying to target with
some of this more mainstream programming to try and bring them in and get them
thinking about these issues. And that's
great. That's a great idea. But where the evidence that they want to be
there?
3386
THE
CHAIRPERSON: Mm-hmm. What do you say about ‑‑ and of
course, Ms. Strain, you were in Toronto ‑‑ and the issue that we
asked CHUM, the part that why should we worry about you because the market
overall has a good PBIT? Especially why
should we worry about you when I see Trinity's rebuttal at page 19 talking
about your costs in the last couple of years, the re-branding, re-launching in
Winnipeg, and those sorts of issues?
3387
MR.
COWIE: Well, I guess ‑‑
3388
THE
CHAIRPERSON: So, I mean, I want ‑‑
3389
MR.
COWIE: Yes.
3390
THE CHAIRPERSON: There is an overall positive PBIT here, and
so why should we worry about you when you may have incurred expenses that are
really only of a one-year sort of lasting impact?
3391
MR.
COWIE: Yes. And I think that's why we haven't put forward our own figures, is
we're suggesting look at the marketplace.
The Toronto scenario was totally different, is you had one broadcaster
that was on one end and then all of the rest of the broadcasters on the other
end, a healthy marketplace even by their own consultants of the interveners
that said there would be 3 to 5 percent growth. I mean, their PBITs were growing over the last two years, I
think, on average, and Jennifer might have this number of the plus-five range,
where the PBIT here, the overall market PBIT here was declining at 35
percent.
3392
So we
want to be really clear. First of all ‑‑
and I think Jennifer mentioned this ‑‑ we're uncomfortable sitting
in this chair, in the intervener chair.
I don't like it. This is my
first time in the intervener chair, and we're looking at the market
specific. We don't to make this the
Wally Whiner Show about, you know, incumbents are good and new entrants are
bad. We're talking about specifically
the facts. The market is ‑‑
the market has declined and the market continues to decline. Whether we've had additional costs to
re-brand a station is not significant to that discussion. We're suggesting that the market can't
support, not that the Craig station can't support.
3393
THE
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Well, you do talk about revenues declining,
and then the very next sentence is, "The annual growth rate for PBIT was
down." So PBIT certainly has a fair bit
to do with expenses, that's ‑‑
3394
MR.
COWIE: Right. But that's a market PBIT.
That's a market PBIT.
3395
THE
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, the average
market. Yes.
3396
MR.
COWIE: Yes, that's the average market
PBIT.
3397
MR.
COWIE: Because the national, or the
rest of the Canadian markets were in a plus-five range. The Manitoba PBIT, on average, over the last
four years, was 19, and the last two years it was minus 34.7, 35.1. So we're talking about market here. We want to make that very clear that this
not a "Oh, please, don't hurt us." I
mean, it's a market scenario.
3398
MS.
STRAIN: And Madam Chair, I was just
pulling out my numbers here. If you
look, for example, in 2000, the PBIT margin for Canada was almost 14
percent. Ontario was 18.5 percent, and
that compares to Manitoba, which is 4.65 percent, so it's well below national
average, well below Ontario. And I
agree with Cam, this really is a market ‑‑ in this specific case
we've got some real concerns.
3399
THE
CHAIRPERSON: Mm-hmm. I don't want to hear about Saskatchewan ever
again. Thank you very much. Do you have questions? Commissioner Williams.
3400
COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Thank you, Madam Chair. What is the magnitude of your revenue
decline over the past few years?
3401
MR.
COWIE: Of our revenue decline?
3402
COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Yes?
3403
MR.
COWIE: Substantial.
3404
COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Is that as much detail as you
care to give at this time?
3405
MR. COWIE: I'd best check with legal.
3406
MS.
STRAIN: Commissioner Williams, we ‑‑
I have some information from our annual returns.
3407
COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: You can go percentage-wise if
you want. I don't need the actual
number.
3408
MS.
STRAIN: Yeah, I think I ‑‑
airtime revenues.
3409
COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: I just want to know ‑‑
3410
MS.
STRAIN: Yes, I can give you a
percentage, I think. Just give me a
minute here. Ninety-eight to '99,
decline of 5 percent; '99 to 2000, decline of 5 percent; 2000 to 2001, decline
of 8 percent.
3411
COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Okay.
3412
MS.
STRAIN: That's just airtime revenue;
that's not profit.
3413
COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: In your experience, have you
ever seen all of the local broadcasters agree through the intervention process
that a new entrant would cause harm in an already fragile marketplace?
3414
MR.
COWIE: Sorry? Could ‑‑
3415
COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Okay. In your experience, have you ever witnessed
all of the local broadcasters ‑‑ that's CTV, Global and
yourselves ‑‑ have all said that the market is too fragile to
allow a new entrant? Have you ever
witnessed that before? You say in
Trinity's application in Fraser Valley you didn't intervene because you thought
the marketplace was strong enough.
3416
MS.
STRAIN: Right.
3417
COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Okay.
3418
MR. COWIE: I can't recollect in any particular
hearing. I know that ‑‑
3419
MS.
STRAIN: In Alberta.
3420
MR.
COWIE: ‑‑ in some cases
there might be dissenting to the magnitude and so on, but I'm sure there's
probably been other hearings where all of the broadcasters were unanimous.
3421
MS.
STRAIN: There were. In Alberta, the first and second licensing
hearing when Craigs and the Aspers were competing for a licence, my
recollection is all the broadcasters got together and intervened. And at that time the first hearing was in,
when was that, '94, I believe, when the licence was turned down because of the
market.
3422
COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Right.
3423
MS.
STRAIN: The market subsequently
improved a few years later significantly.
But yes, in both of those instances, all the Alberta ‑‑
3424
COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Yes.
3425
MS.
STRAIN: ‑‑ incumbent
broadcasters opposed.
3426
COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: So the marketplace was the
determining factor that brought them together then, in your opinion?
3427
MS.
STRAIN: Yes. And of course, the impact that a new entrant would have on local
programming, et cetera.
3428
COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Have you tried to negotiate
carriage on DTH and with what result?
3429
MS.
STRAIN: We have absolutely tried and
continue to try, and no result. The
only Craig station that is on DTH is A-Channel, Edmonton, and Star Choice and
Express Vu are carrying that particular signal because at the time we had
Oilers hockey, so that was sort of the selling feature.
3430
COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: So the other two ‑‑
3431
MS.
STRAIN: These are ongoing discussions
we have with them all the time.
3432
COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Yes. Okay.
The other two Winnipeg stations are carried on DTH?
3433
MS.
STRAIN: No, they're not.
3434
COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Yes.
3435
MS.
STRAIN: And nor is A-Channel,
Calgary. In each market -- well, Brandon,
we are the only station in the market, but in each of Winnipeg and Calgary we
are the only service not up on DTH.
CTV's up, Global's local signal's up.
We're the only ones who aren't.
3436
COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Should this panel choose to
license two or perhaps even more radio stations, what impact on television
advertising sales would this have? Say,
for example, in Global's application, which is on the public record, they
estimate their revenue to be 1.2 million, growing to 2.7 over their licence period;
Corus, from 1.9 million to 3.2 million over their licence period. Trinity, 700 to 1.2 over their licence
period. So doing quick math, that's
$6 million over the license period of advertising revenue that each of
these entities would require to survive.
3437
MR.
COWIE: I think if you, first of all,
compared ‑‑ let's say if it all came to fruition, we're talking
about $6 million. The television
market did just over 40 million, so that's a pretty major percentage. You know, even if you subscribe to the pie
theory of 50 percent, I mean, $3 million is still going to have to
come from incumbents, and whether that would come from just radio or just
newspaper, or just television, that's the same question that we're faced with
at each hearing. What we're suggesting
is the first dollar, not only the six millionth dollar, will have some type of
effect on the marketplace. So if there
was two radio stations and another television station, yeah, I mean, the effect
could be devastating.
3438
COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Okay. Thank you.
I have no further questions, Madam Chair.
3439
THE
CHAIRPERSON: Legal Counsel.
3440
LEGAL
COUNSEL: Just a couple of small things
to help out. In responding to
Commissioner Cram at one point you referred to, I guess, the WIC decision that
the Commission issued. Just for ease of
reference, are you thinking of the decision where the Commission agreed to
divesting to Global and CHUM? Is that
the one you're thinking of?
3441
MS.
STRAIN: No. It was July 6th, 2000, that decision came out. It's etched in my memory, I think. And that was the decision granting transfer
of the WIC assets to Global ‑‑
3442
LEGAL
COUNSEL: To Global?
3443
MS.
STRAIN: ‑‑ as I
recall. I think that's the one. Where they talked about the non-compete
language. Is that what you're ‑‑
yes.
3444
LEGAL
COUNSEL: Yes, what I'm trying to track
down is there were conditions imposed in that decision?
3445
MS.
STRAIN: Yes. I don't know if it was a condition or if it was the Commission
noted Global's commitment to file a report or something saying that it would
not do these things.
3446
LEGAL
COUNSEL: Okay. It's just I wanted, for the record, and also
for the applicant, to know which decision you were referring to, so that
if ‑‑
3447
MS.
STRAIN: I believe it was dated July
6th, 2000, and that was the decision.
3448
LEGAL
COUNSEL: Thank you very much. The other question I had was just in terms
of, I guess, programming overlap. In
your presentation a little earlier you referred to, at the bottom of page 2,
some programming overlap, I think "Church of the Rock," "It's a New Day," and
so on. And also on page 1, about the
middle of the page, you referred to "60 Minutes" and "Dateline," and you say
"that the A-Channel stations sublicensed from Global." Are all the stations sublicensing those
programs from Global?
3449
MS. STRAIN: My understanding is Global has the national
rights to those programs, so our stations in Alberta and Manitoba air those
programs.
3450
LEGAL
COUNSEL: So A-Channel in Winnipeg
licenses "60 Minutes" and "Dateline"; is that correct?
3451
MS.
STRAIN: Yes.
3452
LEGAL COUNSEL: Okay.
If I refer to the NOW TV fall 2001 schedule that you attached, I
think, to the copy of your intervention ‑‑
3453
MS.
STRAIN: I do have it. Okay.
Yes, counsel?
3454
LEGAL
COUNSEL: Yes, I think there's a
reference, to on ‑‑ for example, Monday evening there's a reference
to "Online 60 Minutes." Is there any
other programming overlap between A-Channel in Winnipeg and from what you've
seen and understand of what Fraser Valley broadcasts?
3455
MR.
COWIE: "Dateline" and ‑‑
3456
LEGAL
COUNSEL: Yes, "Dateline" we talked
about a few minutes ago, that's right.
3457
MR.
COWIE: And I'm not sure which level, or
which program "Doc" is, if it's the same program we carry. I can't say for a certainty, but we do carry
"Doc" as well, and if it's the same program then that would be overlap. The programs that I mentioned, "Church of
the Rock" and "Calvary Temple," are barter programs that have secured time
slots on our A-Channel stations.
3458
LEGAL
COUNSEL: Is the "Doc" program, is that
just the name of it, "Doc"?
3459
MR.
COWIE: Yes, capital D-o-c. On Saturday night.
3460
LEGAL
COUNSEL: Any other description you can
give, so that ‑‑
3461
MR.
COWIE: He's a country doctor. It's shot in Vancouver. The name escapes me, but he sang "Achy
Breaky Heart."
3462
LEGAL
COUNSEL: That's helpful. So those are the only overlaps?
3463
MR.
COWIE: Yes.
3464
LEGAL
COUNSEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.
3465
THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I think we'll take our break now, 15
minutes, and then go back to the other interveners.
3466
MS.
STRAIN: Thank you very much.
--- Upon recessing at 1021 / Suspension à 1021
--- Upon resuming at 1044 / Reprise à 1044
3467
THE
CHAIRPERSON: We will come back to
order. Mr. Secretary
3468
THE
SECRETARY: Thank you, Madam. The next intervener this morning is Dr.
Rangachari Venkataraman. Please
proceed, Dr. Venkataraman, when you're ready.
INTERVENTION
/ INTERVENTION
3469
MR.
VENKATARAMAN: Madam Chairperson,
Commissioners, good morning. My name is
Rangarchari Venkataraman. I am a
retired professor, senior scholar in the Math Department, University of
Manitoba.
3470
I am also
past president, a past office-bearer and a founding member of the Hindu Society
of Manitoba, the only one such in Winnipeg, which represents approximately
10,000 Manitobans.
3471
Our
community has grown since the beginning of the '60s when many of us immigrated
to this great country and made it our home with our young families. Our community has come of age by now, our
children have grown into young adults, got married, settled down, our
children's children born and initiated into our religious customs and rituals
and, sadly of course, grandparents or sometimes parents passing, their funeral
rites performed.
3472
I am
closely involved in these socio-religious events in my community as I am a
priest of the Hindu Temple and the Hindu community.
3473
I am also
the coordinator for the Manitoba/Saskatchewan region Sri Sathya Sai
Organization, which is a worldwide organization founded in 1940 whose purpose
is described in detail in my written intervention.
3474
Incidentally,
I want to speak about a question that was raised yesterday at the hearing,
namely whether the Sai Organization is a religious organization. I wish to state that indeed it is. This following quote of the basic tenet of
this movement from its founder, Sri Sathya Sai Baba, would settle this issue
unequivocally: "I preach only one
religion of love for all, which alone can integrate the human race into a
brotherhood of man under the fatherhood of God."
3475
I will
explain my special interest in this movement a little later in this
presentation.
3476
Let me
first state that I am here today to voice the support of our community to the
application put forward by Trinity Television.
I am in a position of being able to speak with authority both from the
Sri Sathya Sai Organization and from the Hindu Society of Manitoba.
3477
Madam
Chairperson, Winnipeg needs this channel desperately. This is especially true today more than ever before, recognizing
both local and worldwide events we are all experiencing.
3478
There was
a time when we and other religious producers were welcome at the local cable
channel, regularly producing local programming relevant to our community.
3479
Today we
are no longer welcome on cable and have no local voice in the media. Like so many other producers of religious
programs, we are missing a vital means in which to communicate with others,
sharing our faith with other faith groups and with Winnipeggers in
general. This negatively impacts our
ability to foster communications and understanding between our religion and others,
and also harms our ability to nurture our own beliefs and culture from within.
3480
The media
is a powerful means in which to positively influence and shape the lives of our
people. We have not stopped wanting to
use this important tool. However, we no
longer have the television system to produce our own programming to balance
against any of the other, often negative lifestyle programming broadcast on the
other channels. This is especially
needed among the young and impressionable, now more than ever before. Religious television has a major role to
play in clarifying and guiding the communities.
3481
The Hindu
religion lays strong emphasis upon the moral values of truth, right conduct,
non-covetousness, compassion, non-violence, and exhorts everyone that through
these values one should strive for liberation.
3482
There is
so much misinformation in the media about the values of the Hindu community and
role in shaping the moral climate of the world that many members of our
community have become indifferent to its practice. A religious television can make a difference in correcting all
this and promote positive interaction with other communities.
3483
As a
priest of the Hindu community, I am keenly aware of the changes that are taking
place in my community. Of over 150
weddings that I have solemnized, both as priest and a marriage commissioner for
the Province of Manitoba during the past 15 years, over 95 percent of these
have been cross-religious and cross-cultural.
3484
I have
counselled the partners in these marriages pointing out not just the possible
conflicts that could arise, but also the great potential for positive growth,
understanding and mutual respect that these can bring about in the
multi-cultural nation that is our dear Canada.
3485
A fresh
generation of cross religious, cross-cultural children are in our midst now,
with very special needs for nurturing -- needs that provide new, exciting and
innovative challenges for our community.
3486
It is in
this context that I am involved in the Sri Sathya Sai Organization whose goal
is to promote the unity of all faiths and a staunch universalism. A TV channel that could offer facilities for
promoting these ideals would not only help our community, it would also benefit
the community at large that is also impacted by these new social trends. As of now, no such facilities are available.
3487
Members
of our religious community posses rich skills and creative talent and they are
willing to share these individual gifts.
Our community has the substance to produce and we are anxiously awaiting
the opportunity to do so.
3488
Today,
our community, both children and parents, have little in the way of choices
that we can trust from a religious and cultural perspective. The application for a balanced religious
television channel by Trinity provides such an alternative and we sincerely support
this concept.
3489
We
therefore urge the Commission to grant Trinity Television this licence.
3490
I thank
you very much for allowing me to appear before you today to express my
views. Thank you.
3491
THE
CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Williams?
3492
COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Thank you for your
presentation, Mr. Venkataraman. You
state in your intervention that you are no longer welcome on cable. What was your programming schedule, how long
were you providing programming to the community access channel, and when did you
cease programming?
3493
MR.
VANKATARAMAN: I think when what was
Videon cable television was licensed to broadcast in Winnipeg, they allowed
each community a little bit of time, maybe once a week or sometimes once in two
weeks, to have a half-hour program. Then
we could -- usually it was unedited type of program, you just go there and just
do it and they broadcast whatever has been done.
3494
This was
about five or six years and then suddenly they said they are not interested in
this type of programming any more, they would like to have something which
would interest the community at large.
So we were able to do programming from a religious point of view from
the perspective of our community but they said that program no longer interests
them, so we lost the opportunity to broadcast.
3495
COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: And when was this? When did that end? I guess what I'm looking for is when the cable television company
changed ownership or was --
3496
MR.
VENKATARAMAN: No, I think it was still
called Videon, but then they moved -- they used to be here at the corner of
Stafford and Pembina but then they moved to an area in south Winnipeg and then
they said they are not interested any more.
3497
Now, it
is called "Plug In" or something, some program -- a community type of program
but they said they are not interested any more in -- this happened four years
before.
3498
MR.
WILLIAMS: Do you do any broadcasting on
radio?
3499
MR.
VENKATARAMAN: No.
3500
MR.
WILLIAMS: Thank you very much for your
presentation. I have no further
questions, Madam Chair.
3501
THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, sir.
3502
THE
SECRETARY: Thank you, Madam Chair. I now call the Islamic Social Services
Association Inc. representative. Please
proceed when you're ready.
INTERVENTION
/ INTERVENTION
3503
MS.
SIDDIQUI: Madam Chairman, Commissioners,
my name is Shahina Siddiqui and I'm the Executive Director of the Islamic
Social Services Association. I'm also
the senior director of the Council of American Islamic Relations in Canada and
also the director at Islamic School and so I'm here on behalf of our community,
the Muslim community of Manitoba, which is about 5,000 Muslims and growing, to
support Trinity's application.
3504
We as a
community have been sidelined and marginalized when it comes to broadcasting
and also presenting our community's way of life of engaging in dialogue with
other communities. We feel that this is
an excellent opportunity for us to be able to tell our story in our own way
rather than having others guess at what we are all about.
3505
I think
in the environment that has happened post-September 11, this has made it even
more paramount right now that we give opportunities to minority religious
communities in Manitoba to speak for themselves.
3506
We have
had, as the doctor said previously, a short span of opportunity when we were
able to do programming with Videon, but that, for some reason or other, was
cancelled. We also see this as an
opportunity for training our young people in this medium which we feel that
media has a very important role to play in shaping public opinion and building
bridges. I think this is what we are
looking at, this opportunity not to proselytise but to build bridges, to open
dialogue and to present our perspective.
Also, if, God forbid, there was ever a backlash again against Muslims,
this would be an opportunity for us to address those concerns and bring it to
the larger community.
3507
We would
also look at this as an interaction between faith communities to come
together. So I think this is an
excellent opportunity and my community stands behind Trinity's application and
looking forward to learning and also looking forward to donating a lot of
volunteer time to see that this comes true.
3508
THE
CHAIRPERSON: And I'm sorry, I missed
your name.
3509
MS.
SIDDIQUI: Shahina Siddiqui.
3510
THE
CHAIRPERSON: So you're the same person
who wrote the letter, Ms. Siddiqui. You
were talking about ‑‑ and I confess I believe Canada to be a
very, very tolerant society but after, as they call it, 9/11, some things of
which we should all be ashamed happened in terms of the backlash.
3511
Were
there problems in Winnipeg? I thought I
read that there were some issues.
3512
MS.
SIDDIQUI: We had quite a few
issues. We had harassment, we had
vandalism, we had death threats, we had our children harassed at the school
ground and universities. We had rocks
thrown at our women, people coming up and spitting at Muslim women, and I think
the reason was that there was no voice in the mainstream there where people
could get accurate information. The
little information that they were getting from mainstream media was skewed.
3513
THE
CHAIRPERSON: Was which?
3514
MS.
SIDDIQUI: Was skewed in a certain
perspective and was also inaccurate.
3515
THE
CHAIRPERSON: And now, after the hype
has gone down a little, are things better or do you still feel some residual
issues?
3516
MS.
SIDDIQUI: There are always residual
issues, and always with racism what happens is when it's in your face the
community responds and it goes underground.
That's what happened now. It has
become systemic. It is showing itself
in organizations and cultures and peoples' attitudes.
3517
But what
has not gone down is the demand to know about Islam. Since September 11th, I myself personally have been speaking
almost every day, sometimes twice or three times a day, to community groups, to
churches, to universities, schools, you name it, who want to know about Islam
from a Muslim.
3518
So you
can imagine that if we had a venue where we could reach a larger crowd, that
the demand is there. And for myself, I
write quite regularly for the Winnipeg Free Press on the third page. I was surprised when I went into churches,
how many people actually read those articles and that they would have copies of
them on the table. So the demand is
there.
3519
THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
3520
THE
SECRETARY: I now call Mr. Delbert Enns
of the Family Life Network.
INTERVENTION
/ INTERVENTION
3521
MR.
ENNS: Good morning, Madam Chair,
Commissioners. My name is Delbert Enns
and I'm the executive director for a value-based Christian media organization
here in Winnipeg entitled Family Life Network.
3522
A little
over two hundred years ago, the world was almost entirely a rural planet where
only 5 percent of the world population lived in urban centres. By the year 1900 that figure doubled. The cities of the world are currently undergoing
profound changes. Currently, there are
about 330 mega-cities around the world with a population over 1 million. Of those 330 mega-cities, there's about 45
super giant cities with population over 10 million.
3523
So
what? What does that have to do with
this meeting this morning? What is a
city? A city is many things, it is a
very important place because it's a place where people live. There's no real standard with which to
define when a village or a town becomes a city. However, it does recognize a place of importance either
politically, economically, culturally, and also in this case, spiritually.
3524
The city
of Winnipeg comprises a unique network of cultures, faith groups and
people. While Winnipeg can generate
wealth, technology and communications, there is one thing that it does not
offer -- spiritual protection, security, a moral compass, or answers for the
erosion of life principles.
3525
While the
needs in our city of Winnipeg are enormous, it is important to realize that a
city is a strategic key in bringing hope and answers to a dysfunctional family,
strength to the weak, power to the powerless, hope for an aging population,
unity to a diverse and rich religious community in which we live.
3526
As I look
around the city of Winnipeg, I believe that we are standing at an important
crossroads in defining the relationship among the different faith groups, the
future of our families, the life of every person in every home. The city of Winnipeg is people, for thus we are
known, Friendly Manitoba, not simply another consumer that has been tossed
around by the stiff and selfish competition of the financial market.
3527
During
the last few days, many voices and corporate dreams have been shared in this
building. I believe that every
participant during these hearings have had a valid reason to support or not to
support the applications. The question
that I would put on the table this morning is, who will give us the moral
compass, the spiritual formation? Who
will help us in dealing with the issues of life? Who is responsible to speak to the needs of the post-modern
person in Winnipeg?
3528
During a
recent broadcast of one of our radio programs called God Talk that is being
broadcast on a local radio station here in Winnipeg, CJOB, the host of the
program asked the listeners to phone in and respond to the question, "If you
had God on the line, what would you ask him?"
These are some of the questions that people had. Why is the feeling of hate so big in this
world? Why do bad things happen like
people killing each other?
Emptiness. Why can't there be a
closer contact with a supreme being?
Why does God not finish with the misery on this planet? Where and why is there so much injustice in
our society? Is there a Christian
God? Is there a Jewish God? Is there a Muslim God? Is there a Catholic God?
3529
These are
some of the questions that some of our listeners did call in.
3530
I've been
an owner for many years of a reputable business here in the city of Winnipeg
called Precision Camera Repair. I
realized that my personal search for financial gain and success did not meet my
personal needs and less the needs of the community in which I live. I began to serve this community as a social
worker and as a spiritual mentor pastoring a local church.
3531
In 1988 I
had the chance to get involved in building up different media outlets. Today, after 14 years of personal
involvement in value-based media broadcasting both here in Canada and abroad, I
soon realized the impact that media has in shaping and developing the future of
a city.
3532
In the
year 1992, together with a few other Latin American broadcasters we began
COICOM, which is today known as the Latin American Broadcasters
Association. With more than 800
television stations, 1,800 radio stations, 450 newspapers, owners, program
directors, station managers, technicians come together every year for an annual
conference. The objective of the
conference is to bring a deeper understanding of the complexity of human life
and the issues that the Latin American person faces each day and how media can
help by providing answers in a creative programming.
3533
Why do I
say this? For I believe that Trinity
Television is a compelling and very good option for Winnipeg to change and to
bring hope into this city.
3534
Since
1995 I've served as an active member and director of a Christian media
organization called Family Life Network.
Over 55 years ago, Family Life Network began broadcasting a radio
program on a station here in Winnipeg, Canada.
Today, FLN has become a multi-cultural team of Christian communicators,
an agency dedicated to producing a life-giving program. Today, FLN produces programs for 800 radio
stations globally in seven different languages ‑‑ English,
Spanish, High German, Arabic, Russian, Low German and Ukrainian ‑‑
around the world. FLN is a non-profit
organization whose primary purpose is to help people strengthen their
relationship between God, family and friends.
3535
This
morning I'm speaking on behalf of the Mennonite Brethren community and churches
in the city. In 1978, Family Life
Network started to produce a television program titled "The Third Story." For more than 15 years, this program was
aired successfully on many stations free of charge in western Ontario,
Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta and B.C.
The format of the program was a magazine style dealing with life issues,
teaching modern parables in a culturally relevant manner.
3536
The fact
that FLN broadcast over 800 radio stations in seven different languages for
more than 55 years; the fact that FLN received strong support from the
Christian business community in Winnipeg; the fact that FLN has done television
in the past and has learned and continues to learn from its strong radio
market; the fact that FLN produces in collaboration with CJOB Winnipeg a well
known and respected radio program called God Talk every Sunday night for the
last four years; the fact that FLN has been collaboratively producing a weekly
television program seen on SAT-7, EUTELSAT W2, covering all of Europe, North
Africa and the Middle East with Trinity Television for the last year; the fact
that the Christian business community has given a vote of confidence and
support of Trinity Television's proposal; the fact that a local religious
television station will help to provide the needed dimension to our faith
community and our city dealing with life issues; the fact that Winnipeg has the
strongest financial support for humanitarian and non-profit organization per
capita in Canada; the fact that Trinity has been broadcasting for 25 years
across Canada; the fact that we are here this morning and in person is because
I want to support the application of Trinity Television.
3537
I would
like to give my full support in favour of Trinity Television in establishing an
alternative religious television station in Winnipeg. It would offer in a creative way answers to our post-modern
Canadian.
3538
Let me
conclude by quoting Dr. Laura Schlessinger, a well-known radio host across
Canada, who commented in her book Abdication of Courage, Character and
Wisdom -- she wrote that the greatest demise in our culture ‑‑
and if I could add here in our city of Winnipeg ‑‑ is not the
lack of God but the lack of values, morals, and principles. I believe that a religious television
station in Winnipeg would definitely offer an alternative in the market that we
live today.
3539
Thank
you.
3540
THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Enns. Commissioner Cardozo has a few questions.
3541
COMMISSIONER
CARDOZO: Thank you, Mr. Enns. I've just got a few questions and I wanted
some clarification. You talked about
860 radio stations carrying these programs in seven different languages. Are these all prepared here in Winnipeg?
3542
MR.
ENNS: Eighty percent are prepared here
in Winnipeg. And we have an office in
Moscow and the Ukraine and Latin America.
3543
COMMISSIONER
CARDOZO: So these aren't produced in
the States?
3544
MR.
ENNS: No, they're all national Canadian
products.
3545
COMMISSIONER
CARDOZO: I was interested to see you
mentioned that the Family Life Network is a multi-cultural team of Christian
communicators, and certainly one of the things we look to broadcast is to see
how they reflect the cultural diversity of Canada, even when you're talking
religious and to some extent multi-religious.
Are you saying that within the Christian communities and communicators
that you work with there are people of different cultures and languages?
3546
MR.
ENNS: Definitely, and one of the
aspects of our strong belief and values as an organization is that we want to
speak emotion to emotion, culture to culture, without having to actually translate
programs that may be created in a Western mindset but that are created within
the culture and speak in the language of the people. So we respect highly the individuality and the cultures and the
language groups to which we speak to.
So yes, all of these language groups are people that actually belong to
our faith group but also which we believe that need to be retained and hold on
to their own culture without changing their values.
3547
COMMISSIONER
CARDOZO: So I take it ‑‑
which are the languages? I take it
Ukrainian and Spanish would be two.
3548
MR.
ENNS: Yes. Arabic, we have Russian, German, Low German --
3549
COMMISSIONER
CARDOZO: Yes. One last question. You
talked about the Christian business community.
How would you define that? Is
that beyond the stores that sell Bibles and that type of thing?
3550
MR.
ENNS: Absolutely. We've been around for 55 years here in the
city of Winnipeg and we would not be able to sustain a budget to actually
operate and to broadcast and to produce programs globally if we would not have
the support here in Manitoba.
3551
That's
one of the reasons why I'm very confident as I have spoken to my own support
constituency that have given their support in favour of Trinity Television, for
they are also support partners of television.
3552
COMMISSIONER
CARDOZO: These are people like yourself
who are Christians and --
3553
MR.
ENNS: Yes, that happened in the
marketplace business world, and today we see this as a viable opportunity also
to share some of the human and spiritual values that we hold on to.
3554
COMMISSIONER
CARDOZO: And you don't think that if
Trinity were to be licensed and came online that they would take away some of
your financial support from the business community?
3555
MR.
ENNS: I'm not scared at all. As a matter of fact I think it would be
within the industry standard where we live, where partnerships and networking
is essential. I believe that for us to
partner together with Willard and with Trinity Television is essential even for
us to sustain the market and to have a viable voice within the spiritual and
the religious community. Networking is
very important for us.
3556
COMMISSIONER
CARDOZO: Thank you, Mr. Enns. Thank you, Madam Chair.
3557
THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Enns. Mr. Secretary.
3558
THE
SECRETARY: Thank you, Madam Chair. The next intervener is Mr. Bruce Martin of
Calvary Temple.
INTERVENTION
/ INTERVENTION
3559
MR.
MARTIN: Good morning, Madam Chair and
others. My name is Bruce Martin. I'm the pastor of Calvary Temple here in
downtown Winnipeg. We've been in this
community for almost a hundred years and ministering largely to -- part of our
constituency of course, is the inner city that we live in and our buildings are
located in.
3560
Calvary
Temple is not new to broadcasting. I
was talking to my predecessor, Dr. Barber, yesterday and actually Calvary
Temple went on radio in 1925 here in Winnipeg.
Pastor Barber began on television in 1962, and presently we purchase
time from CKY, Global, the A-Channel.
We use this as part of our way of ministering to our constituency and also
reaching out to the greater community.
3561
I would
think 2,500 to 3,000 people take turns coming to church at Calvary Temple in
groups of twelve to fifteen hundred at a time on a Sunday.
3562
We have
been reaching into our community in different ways. In 1962 we began a ministry in the inner city bussing children to
Sunday school, which continues to this day.
During the last four years, we've actually focused our efforts in a new
way in our inner city community.
Actually we have made, I would think in the past four years, maybe
five to seven thousand visits into the
home environment of our neighbours within a kilometre of our church.
3563
I'm here
just to share with you that I think in the downtown core in Winnipeg, I believe
that Trinity's proposed television station can be of great help to the people
that we meet in the core of our city.
In fact, when I personally visit these people, it becomes apparent to me
that television plays a very significant impact on their lives; in fact, I
think even more so for people who are under-employed or on social assistance.
3564
And so
for this reason we would support Trinity's application. It would have a greater influence on people
to produce new and relevant programs, formats to reach many different groups in
our city.
3565
I have an
ear to the community and there are people continually telling me that not much
of what is in the mainstream of television appeals to them and sometimes -- not
always, but often, it goes completely against the beliefs of what I believe
thousands of Winnipeggers believe in.
3566
So we are
here to partner with Trinity to help them to make positive changes in this
reality that we see in our community.
We believe that there is a need for more positive voices on television
and I'm here just to lend my support.
3567
Thank you
for the time. And to also just say that
as a church that believes in ministering to the religious community and also
reaching out beyond, we would very likely continue to purchase time on other
stations as well as utilize a Christian station.
3568
COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: I have no questions. Thank you very much.
3569
THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr.
Martin.
3570
THE
SECRETARY: I now call Leon Fontaine of
Springs Church.
INTERVENTION
/ INTERVENTION
3571
MR.
FONTAINE: Madam Chair,
Commissioners. My name is Leon Fontaine
and I'm here today to support Trinity's proposed new television service to our
community and to let you know that it will have a very real positive impact on
our community.
3572
I've been
a pastor for over 20 years. I'm a second generation pastor, and I'm now the
senior pastor for the last seven years of a church called Springs Church here
in Winnipeg. Our church attendance on a
weekly basis is one of the largest in Canada.
We weekly have about 7,500 people in 12 services that attend. This has only taken place in the last seven
and a half years.
3573
We've
grown approximately 50 percent a year and that increase is due to the fact that
we are trying to be relevant in people's lives. Every week we deal with issues that impact the day-to-day struggles
people face. Some topics include
marriage, family, relationships, the destiny that God wants for their lives,
and that people can make a difference in life.
3574
This
growth has meant removing stereotypes of church. We've moved a long way from traditional services. Bands play contemporary music, what some
might call rock and roll, I guess.
Large projection screens ensure that every seat is a good one. The screens are filled with fast-moving
images that increase the pacing of the service. Our drama department involves dozens of young people who
communicate vivid truths that are better expressed visually than in mere
words.
3575
We fully
believe that when someone comes to one of our church services it will have a
lasting impact on his or her life.
We're even in the process right now of building a new sanctuary for the
age group of about 15 to 30 that will be even higher in energy, and to reach
that demographic more effectively, we're on television here on CKY. We're across Canada on Vision, the UK and Europe.
3576
Many
parents in my congregation express to me how difficult it is to raise their
families in this day and age. They rely
on our church programs for help. We
teach classes on how to be good parents, how to make marriage work, business --
a lot of things that help people with real issues in everyday life. However, parents have few choices that they
can trust when it comes to their children watching television at home.
3577
Trinity's
religious station will offer alternatives to the many less than ideal channels
currently found on television. I
believe that our society needs a new understanding of spirituality in everyday
life. The way that we perceive the
events of the world, our relationships and families, our view of success,
entertainment, humour, health ‑‑ all must include the
spiritual dimension.
3578
We are at
a time in history that is embracing much change, and as a church, we don't want
to be left behind but rather be a part of that change. If there is one thing that Christ
exemplified, it is that God wants to be relevant in peoples' lives, and this
station will be relevant and it needs to be licensed for Winnipeg. We would love to have you allow them to be
in our community.
3579
I think I
would like to say what Pastor Martin said as well, that as a church, it will be
great to have a station that will adhere to just great moral and ethical
standards, but at the same time, as a church, we would always be trying to
purchase time on non-religious stations because as a church, our goal of course
is to touch peoples' lives who don't understand what church is about or who
have real misconceptions about religion, about Christ.
3580
Thank
you.
3581
THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Pastor Fontaine, we listened to applications
for radio stations that want to appeal to 12-to-18-year-olds or 35-plus and the
"45 and better" ‑‑ and I start wondering if I'm better ‑‑
and tell me, how do you build a sanctuary that appeals to
13-to-30-year-olds? What's in it? I mean --
3582
MR.
FONTAINE: We're building an
amphitheatre seating style and the screens -- the church service that we're
using now, we're actually in four locations so we move just to fit the people
in from location to location on a given Sunday.
3583
It has
two large screens. I believe they're 11
x 14. Then we have smaller screens so
that as the seating gets past 2,500 everyone has got a good seat. When we go to this new sanctuary that we're
now working on, it will seat about twelve to fifteen hundred people. It's an amphitheatre setting and it's going
to have all large screens across the front that size, 12 x 14, four to six of
them so that when you go to church -- and it will be a lot of music that is the
culture -- the Bible teaches us that the message is sacred but the methods
aren't.
3584
So we
want to use methods that will speak through their style of music, through the
ambiance that they like so when you walk into this building it's going to be
laser lighting, it's going to be smoke, lights, it's going to be songs about
God and about meaning for life. On the
screen they'll see shots of the band that's up there, much as you see on
television today. There will be reverse
shots of the crowd, of the kids that are participating and singing along, so
that when you walk in it is a visual feast because it's the sight and sound
generation.
3585
We
recognize that they're the disconnected generation. When it comes to our teens, for example, they spend so much time
on the Internet and in front of their computer. We know, from some of the studies I've read anyway, that the more
hooked in they get to just the Internet, the more disconnected they get from
their parents, from real life, and we need to provide places for them as a
church to come. So that's kind of a
little bit about what the sanctuary is going to be like.
3586
But
television is very important because it gives us a chance to shoot it up on the
big screen and as well it gives a chance to take that service which we will
produce and it gives us a venue, it gives us a station to put that on and begin
to impact these teens.
3587
We also
have a location downtown ministering to much of our core. We just see phenomenal problems down there,
and television is ‑‑ for many age groups its their
babysitter. It is just totally their
life. So if we could have a channel
that a parent could know that on this channel things will be brought out that
encourage us to accept, to love each other, to build a community, to care. You've heard it said by others, but I'm
excited, very excited about Trinity's proposal and the fact that we could have
it in our community.
3588
THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Pastor
Fontaine. Mr. Secretary?
3589
THE
SECRETARY: Thank you, Madam Chair. I now call Mr. Wade Kehler of Christian
Radio Manitoba Limited.
INTERVENTION
/ INTERVENTION
3590
MR.
KEHLER: Good morning, Commissioners,
Madam Chair. My name is Wade Kehler and
I am president and general manager of Christian Radio Manitoba Limited, which
operates CHVN 95.1 FM, the contemporary radio station in Winnipeg and southern
Manitoba.
3591
We have
now been on the air for one and a half years and I'm here to tell you that this
province has strong religious roots and has embraced our station in a very
significant way.
3592
Let me
tell you a little bit about what we do before I voice my support for Trinity's
application. Unlike Trinity's proposed
religious station, the only way we survive is through local advertising
sales. To this point we have not had
any real significant national advertising sales, we have not sold brokered
airtime, and since we are not a charity, we have not requested donations.
3593
In fact,
the local revenue of approximately $450,000 that is projected in Trinity's
application is similar to our actual local advertising sales. Much of the revenue that we generate is new
to radio and has allowed us to create great new opportunities to be effective
in helping consumers and retailers connect.
Initially, many of our advertisers were not expecting great results by
advertising on our radio station; however, they advertised due to their
commitment to the philosophy of Christian radio. Now they are amazed at the impact of their advertising
spots.
3594
As we
have approached them for new campaigns in our second year we have found that
they are staying on board not only for philosophical reasons but because the
advertising has been effective.
3595
Beyond
all the financial information that I can give you, I can tell you that the
community loudly reinforces our work.
There have been literally thousands of e-mails, phone calls and letters. Every day we get responses from all parts of
our coverage area and from every group including teens, young families, and
even those turning a little grey.
3596
We are
also proud of our contribution to the Canadian music scene. Over the past few months we have had the
opportunity to sponsor a battle of the bands, which, by the way, had to be
extended due to the interest that it had created and the number of bands that
were registered. The successful band
will be awarded production time in assisting producing for new Canadian songs,
in sponsorships, and of course radio airtime for the newly recorded songs.
3597
This
radio station is beginning to provide opportunities not readily available to
those in our province. For all the
reasons that we have been successful, Trinity's application will also be
successful in this market. Just like
Christian radio has been so important to our listeners, this TV station will
also be important.
3598
We at
CHVN have proven that there is a demand and a need in Winnipeg. Please consider how important religious
television will be for our community as well.
3599
Thank you
for this opportunity to appear, and I welcome any questions as well.
3600
THE
CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Cardozo.
3601
COMMISSIONER
CARDOZO: Welcome, Mr. Kehler. I just wanted to get a little more
information from you. You've been in
the market a year and a bit. If Trinity
were to be licensed and they start some time in the next, I guess, six to 12
months, is there enough advertising money to split between you because I would
assume that you're going to some of the same advertisers? Is there enough advertising money in
Winnipeg?
3602
MR.
KEHLER: I think there is. Looking at what has happened for us, we've
approached many new businesses that have never been on the air, have really
never advertised before, and they're starting to increase their advertising
budgets. There will be a lot of
crossover definitely, because there are a lot of businesses that have the same
philosophical standards and they would advertise in both. I do believe that most of the businesses
would increase their advertising. There
could be some loss to us. We're not
concerned at all about that. That's not
a concern anyway to us.
3603
COMMISSIONER
CARDOZO: Do you see opportunities for
synergies between you and them of cooperation?
3604
MR.
KEHLER: Oh, definitely, yeah. We have done already many things together on
the little side of things. Because we
are in the same building it makes it a little easier. We kind of have our little corner set aside. But we've already talked about future
planning of many different events, things that we are doing now that we can now
get television involved in as well too, whether it be banquets that we are
involved in, concerts, concert promotions, different speaking events.
3605
COMMISSIONER
CARDOZO: Is music video an option to
share where you would do the -- you would play the audio, they would do the
audio and visual?
3606
MR.
KEHLER: Yes. Yes. That would be a
large part of it actually.
3607
COMMISSIONER
CARDOZO: Thank you very much.
3608
THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr.
Kehler.
3609
MR.
KEHLER: Thank you.
3610
THE
CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary.
3611
THE
SECRETARY: Thank you, Madam Chair. I now call Ken McGhie of Lighthouse Mission.
INTERVENTION
/ INTERVENTION
3612
MR.
McGHIE: Good morning. My name is Ken McGhie. I'm the chaplain at Lighthouse Mission here
in downtown Winnipeg. We've been
serving the Winnipeg community since 1911 and we're a rescue mission with a
soup kitchen outreach helping the homeless and helpless for almost 90
years. We help with clothing and food
and we help the most needy, people that are down and out.
3613
Let me
give just a brief glimpse of my own life.
I hope this will help to explain why I have been passionate about
helping people and I'm presently in the situation that I am. I myself 22 years ago was an inmate in our
federal penitentiaries across western Canada, and I saw "It's A New Day" and I
remember seeing "It's A New Day" and seeing that it was from Winnipeg, and I
was thinking what good thing ever came out of Winnipeg? But it was a program that has changed my
life and ‑‑ helped to change my life -- great encouragement,
great teachings every day. And I spent
many years in prison, almost 10 years in prison, so it wasn't just a brief
stay. It was a show that really
impacted my life to the degree that I'm going on in a Christian sense. I'm involved in a Christian ministry some
13-14 years here in downtown Winnipeg.
3614
Now, at
the Lighthouse Mission we not only give warmth through food and help and
clothing, but we have the Christian TV program "It's A New Day" on, encouraging
people, because life on Main Street is hard without a buck. Life is hard when you're hurting and this is
a program that shines a light with a very simple message that there's hope and
help with God.
3615
In this,
some of the things that have been shared that I've heard in this hearing is the
word "impact," and definitely "It's a New Day" has proven, as time proves all
things, that it's a presence for good and its impact is very positive. Many people have been helped. We have a mission that ‑‑
we're not an overly religious mission or anything but we serve people soup and
coffee and encourage them that there is hope and help with God. With the daily TV program we have on
presently and future programming, if the NOW TV comes on play here, will
just add and multiply more of the good that's going forth from the Lighthouse
Mission and other places that display that kind of programming.
3616
Winnipeg
is a great city and I'm committed as much as possible to make it even better,
and we're hoping that "It's a New Day" and NOW TV gets the support and
gets the permission from CRTC to carry on with their TV program.
3617
The
proposal for NOW TV is to provide help for missions and presently out in
Vancouver the Union Gospel Mission out there, as we have them here in Winnipeg,
is being helped out there with programs and local support. I think for the Christian community here in
Winnipeg, we need to be connected and supported and networked with things that
are going on in Winnipeg and that's one of the great venues that the
NOW TV program will provide.
3618
I thank
you for your considerations.
3619
COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: I have no questions. Thank you for your presentation.
3620
THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr.
Kehler. Mr. Secretary.
3621
THE
SECRETARY: Thank you, Madam Chair. I now call Mr. Rami Kleinmann of the Jewish
National Fund of Canada.
INTERVENTION
/ INTERVENTION
3622
MR.
KLEINMANN: Madam Chair, Commissioners,
first of all I would like to say that I'm not going to repeat a lot of things
that have been said in regards to religion, the need, values, impact.
3623
One of
the things that I would like to say is I don't think that any of us would be
here today to support the application if we wouldn't know who is standing
behind the application. I think that
Mr. Willard Thiessen and Trinity Television have been proved to be partners to
us in the past, in working on a very, very sensitive tissue of relationships
between religions. And I think that, at
least for us from the Jewish National Fund and the Jewish segment of the community,
we find in Willard and in Trinity Television a great partner.
3624
I don't
that easily stand and support an operation that I don't know -- assuming that
we will be some kind of a cooperation and promoting, I would say, good
relationship between religion besides all the impact on the value without
knowing that Mr. Thiessen and Trinity Television would be behind it.
3625
I think
there's maybe two angles that the previous speaker didn't mention. Religion is, in terms of marketing, one of
the most popular products in the world.
If you look at terms of what time we're allocating to all the other
products in the world and what time we're allocating to religion, we find that
there is a big gap.
3626
Another
segment which we find out, as people grow and become older, they become more
religious. As people grow and become
older, especially in a city like Winnipeg in the Jewish community, we find it
very tough for them especially in the six months of the winter to mobilize
themselves, to going to the synagogue, to all the time staying at home. From the Jewish point of view, I would say
that we do not really have the facility to accommodate all these people who are
sitting at home.
3627
Yes, they
have television. Yes, they're watching
other things. But if they want to hear
the portion of the Torah that's heard on Saturday in the synagogue they have no
choice to find it. You know, we're
talking about a world that is becoming more and more into communications and
television becomes one of the most vital important tools of communication,
especially if we look today on a regular phone video conversation. We get used to speaking over the phone and
to look at each other. We're going into
website, we can see anything which we can think of.
3628
But to
provide this very unique need of certain segments of the society, I think it's
very, very important to have a religious channel here that we all will be able
to work together and to bring our message across.
3629
One thing
that I would like to add that I heard previously is all the issue of
advertising. From experience with organizations,
we do advance, we're approaching sponsors and advertisers on a regular
basis. I think that there is a big
difference between religious advertising to regular advertising because when we
approach people to sponsor our programs and things like that, we go to people
that have an interest to sponsor our program.
I think it's working and I saw it in radio. It's working very much in the media as well.
3630
I give
two examples only. The first example
will be that when we have a television show, let's say a Jewish program, a
future Jewish program that we will have, I'm not going to approach a bathing
suit company to advertise. I'm going to
go and approach the Kosher grocery, supermarket to advertise in a sense. And from the other hand, I don't think that
if we say a Bible cruise in the Pacific, we'll look for the people through the
religious channel. This is the two
examples that I want to bring.
3631
I would
like to say that we are supporting the application. We are looking forward hopefully to have a channel. Thank you.
3632
THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr.
Kleinmann. Can you tell me -- you
talked about Mr. Thiessen being a good partner but you haven't told us what you
did together and how long he's been a dancing partner, if I can --
3633
MR.
KLEINMANN: He's not a dancing partner,
you know. I would say that whenever we
feel that, for example in my particular case it was a joint venture, we want to
talk about certain things which we do and share it. The reason I would say there is ‑‑ I wouldn't
say similarity but there is -- we both believe in the Bible from a different
perspective, let's put it this way. And
there is a lot of common things and we felt that we would like to share
sometimes our perspective or certain feasts or the Jewish holidays for example,
are acknowledged in the Bible, and Bible believer Christians definitely show an
interest in Jewish holidays.
3634
So if
there is a holiday coming up or we want to do something which we both believe
will be good to everybody, for the Jewish community, on the program "It's A New
Day" or other program that was there, it was really a pleasure doing business
with them. This is my experience.
3635
THE
CHAIRPERSON: So he has sort of
partnered with you in terms of bringing you on "It's A New Day" and those --
3636
MR. KLEINMANN: Yeah.
And if we had more tools to work together, I'm sure we will work
together.
3637
THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Thank you very much.
3638
THE
SECRETARY: I now call Mr. Ian Goldstein
and Mr. Alan Feinblit of the Jewish Federation of Winnipeg.
INTERVENTION
/ INTERVENTION
3639
MS.
FAINTUCH: Madam Chair and
Commissioners, I'm obviously not Ian Goldstein nor am I Allan Feinblit. However, they've asked that I represent the
Jewish Federation of Winnipeg Combined Jewish Appeal to the CRTC hearing this
morning.
3640
My name
is Shelley Faintuch. I'm the director
of community relations for the Jewish Federation of Winnipeg. We represent a community of approximately
14,000 Jews in southern Manitoba. The
Jewish Federation of Winnipeg Combined Jewish Appeal is an umbrella
organization. We represent many of the
smaller organizations. We represent our
community to government, to the general community, and we also provide services
for our own community.
3641
I'd like
to limit my comments to four areas and I hope that I won't be redundant in
dealing with these areas.
3642
The first
area that I'd like to deal with is an area called integrity and trust. Mr. Kleinmann, who has just spoken, who is a
colleague and a good friend, mentioned that he had built up over time a trust relationship
with Mr. Thiessen and Trinity TV. In
fact the Jewish Federation of Winnipeg Combined Jewish Appeal has also
benefited from a very positive relationship.
Faith TV, religious TV, requires a basis of trust and without trusting
one's partner one often does not wish to delve into issues that are very
personal issues.
3643
We've had
the good fortune of having a wonderful relationship with Trinity. It hasn't been as long standing as other
people's but we're looking forward to building upon that for our own
people. In fact since Willard has
recently come back from Israel, I'm looking forward to dealing with some of
these issues, perhaps on a more long-term basis, and some of the issues -- and
Willard, I haven't been to Israel in 30 years so I need some information from
you.
3644
The
second issue that I'd like to deal with is the issue of need. We do not have a faith TV channel in
Winnipeg. We do not, as a Jewish
community, have a television outlet. We
do, however, in the Jewish community of Winnipeg have tremendous resources, and
I'm talking about personal resources, people resources. We don't have the financial resources to go
out and build a TV station. Trinity has
the facilities. Trinity has something
that would be particularly cost effective to us.
3645
The need
goes beyond the fact that we don't have a current outlet and beyond the fact
that Trinity already has a station that all of our communities could benefit
from. Need also has to do with
something called a way of life. In
Judaism, we are guided by the Torah or the Five Books of Moses. We are also guided by the rabbinical
tradition that is called halakha.
Halakha means a way of life. By
having a faith TV channel, we would be able to have in our regular way of life
an outlet.
3646
The
fourth element under this need issue is something called demographics. Mr. Kleinmann referred to that in his
intervention. In the city of Winnipeg,
our 1999 demographics showed us that in the Jewish population, 25 to 27 percent
are in the 65 years of age and over category, 10 percent are 55 to 64 years of
age, and approximately 20 to 30 percent are of a child bearing age. These are people who have more time, who do
do more so-called channel surfing, who have issues that they would perhaps like
to deal with, who are less mobile and who would benefit from faith programming
in the home.
3647
The third
area that I would like to deal with is the issue called local thrust. Although there are programs that are aired
nationally and there are issues that are aired nationally from time to time or
snippets of various programs, in Winnipeg we have a Jewish community that is
extremely diverse. We've been here for
over a hundred years. We have a dynamic
community that is made up of people from all of the various facets of the
religious spectrum, of the political spectrum and the socio-economic spectrum.
3648
We have
in our community a number of -- and it's fairly significant relative to
our population ‑‑ a number of Holocaust survivors, for
example. Their needs are different from
other needs. Programming that we have
done with Trinity in the past has been related to issues such as the Prime
Minister's visit to Auschwitz and how that affects people. Faith and the Holocaust, how those two can
dovetail together or if they do dovetail together. Issues of restitution.
These are perhaps not strictly religious per se but they are very
important faith issues. They're important to our own particular community.
3649
There are
ventures that are happening in our Jewish community that we would like to share
with our own and with others. We have,
for example, a new movement here called Aish Ha Torah, which means the fire of
the Torah, that has wonderful programs and that would perhaps wish to partner
with Trinity or to use Trinity services so that they can extend beyond the
small circles.
3650
We must
remember that when we're dealing with religion, religion is something that we
talk about. Religion is something that
we perhaps practise in public venues, but it's also something that we think of
in the privacy of our own homes. And
locally we do have a number of issues that we would like to deal with in
privacy, such as Holocaust and faith issues, and special characteristics that
we have in our community. For example,
we have a cantor who is also a rabbi who is 87 years of age and the oldest
person to be doing that kind of work in the community and he's coupled with one
of the youngest.
3651
This is
an issue, the whole idea of having a cantor, what is the service and the roles,
are issues that are local.
3652
The last
issue that I'd like to deal with is an issue that I think we've all touched
upon but I'd like to reiterate. That's
that with Trinity's application, were it to be successful, it would allow for
an opportunity for inter-cultural, inter-faith communication.
3653
When Ms.
Siddiqui came up here and spoke about the skewed reporting, the issues that the
Muslim community had post-9/11, this is something that we would have liked to
be able to share with her. In fact our
community has been very supportive of the Muslim community and we stand side by
side very often on a lot of issues, issues such as tolerance, issues such as
educating those who are not of our own faith about our different faiths.
3654
We talk
the talk of diversity but we don't always walk the walk of diversity. I feel that it's important that we reiterate
once again that we do trust Trinity and Mr. Thiessen. We would like to see this application become successful so that
we cannot only talk the talk but that we can walk the walk as well.
3655
Thank you
very much.
3656
THE
CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Cardozo?
3657
COMMISSIONER
CARDOZO: Thank you for coming Ms.
Faintuch. Can I just ask you a couple
of questions about how you would see your relationship with Trinity. How much time would you be interested in a
week? And I note that they're planning
two and a half hours per week devoted to what's called balance programming to
non-Christian communities in the area.
Would you be looking at a half-hour a week, an hour a week?
3658
MS.
FAINTUCH: We haven't really dealt with that.
3659
COMMISSIONER
CARDOZO: Could you use the whole two
and a half?
3660
MS.
FAINTUCH: Pardon me?
3661
COMMISSIONER
CARDOZO: Would you want to use the
whole two and a half?
3662
MS.
FAINTUCH: I think that there are times
in the year when we might wish to use more time than others. We have periods -- we have a cycle of
holidays, for example. Mr. Kleinmann
referred to it.
3663
During
the high holiday period there would likely be more of a need in the community
to talk about what it means. There are
festivals which ‑‑ and we've talked with Trinity, and Trinity
has aired numbers of programs for us on Hanukkah, for example. Holocaust Awareness Week is coming up in our
community. So there are times when we
would likely ask Trinity for a little bit more time on scheduling. There are issues that come up on a
day-to-day basis. When there is an
increase in the amount of violence in the Middle East there is usually a
backlash effect. There's a backlash on
the Muslim community, there was one with 9/11, there's usually a backlash on
our community.
3664
These
types of issues ‑‑ I know that programming is very important
but I think that based on our relationship we would be able to program based on
prompt needs as well as on a long-term basis.
3665
Yes, I've
evaded your question but I hope that I've done so with honesty.
3666
COMMISSIONER
CARDOZO: You've answered enough of
it. Had your community or the
organizations you're with done programming on Videon, the video cable?
3667
MS.
FAINTUCH: Our community was involved in
Sunday Scope and did produce a program on a regular basis.
3668
COMMISSIONER
CARDOZO: And none of that is happening?
3669
MS.
FAINTUCH: That is now defunct.
3670
COMMISSIONER
CARDOZO: I just don't want to go off
the topic too much. We do have a
proceeding currently on to look at community cable programming and the deadline
for that is the 22nd of February if people want to talk about it. But we are looking at whether cable should
be doing more community programming and reflecting various needs in the
community.
3671
Within
your community, do you have the infrastructure to prepare or the people who
have a background in preparing programs?
3672
MS.
FAINRTUCH: Preparing -- you mean from
the production side or --
3673
COMMISSIONER
CARDOZO: That's right, yes.
3674
MS.
FAINTUCH: -- or preparing content?
3675
COMMISSIONER
CARDOZO: Well, both. It sort of -- are you looking that the
production would be done in house at Trinity and you would be bringing the
people in, for example, for the content part?
3676
MS.
FAINTUCH: I would think that would be
the way we initially would look at it for the beginning. We have tremendous personnel resources
within the community but I would look to Trinity for the technical expertise.
3677
COMMISSIONER
CARDOZO: So you wouldn't have access to
other studios?
3678
MS.
FAINTUCH: We currently do not have
access to any other studios.
3679
COMMISSIONER
CARDOZO: Thank you very much. That's very helpful.
3680
THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms.
Faintuch. Did I see you talking with
Ms. Siddiqui after she came up here?
3681
MS.
FAINTUCH: Absolutely.
3682
THE
CHAIRPERSON: And are you agreeing to do
something together to build the tolerance in this community?
3683
MS.
FAINTUCH: In fact we were going to come
up here and address the Commission together but then because we felt that -- we
do have a lot of similar issues and we also have our own issues, we felt it
best to address separately. But we have
participated on various interfaith programs together. We have done interfaith services, we've gone out to schools
together, and we believe very strongly that what we need to do now more than
anything is educate people and we should be doing parts of that together.
3684
THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. We will now adjourn. I'm wondering if we could take an hour and a
quarter, say quarter after one, would that be sufficient time? Thank you. --- Upon recessing at 1151 / Suspension à 1151 -- Upon resuming at 1316 / Reprise
à 1316
3685
THE
CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon. We'll recommence. Mr. Secretary.
3686
THE
SECRETARY: Thank you Madam Chair. We'll now hear from Trinity Television to
reply to the interventions and I believe you have some other undertakings to
respond to as well.
REPLY
/ RÉPLIQUE
3687
MR.
REIMER-EPP: Thank you, Mr.
Secretary. Madam Chair,
Commissioners. Before we begin with our
reply to the intervention, we would just like to address a number of the
homework matters that we talked about yesterday.
3688
First of
all, I think between the Secretary, counsel and myself, we've located the
amendment to our decision in B.C., so that is taken care of. I've also filed with the Secretary copies of
the CITT and CHNU block schedules with the Canadian balance and foreign balance
programming broken out, and you'll notice that they're in the lovely pink and
purple shades. As I understand it those
are popular on this panel.
3689
THE
CHAIRPERSON: Are the pink the
foreign?
3690
MR.
REIMER-EPP: Moving on. We wanted to revisit the question of movies
as balance. We had a brief discussion
about that yesterday. And in discussing
that after the fact, I wanted to make sure we qualified that in one small
respect. We have no plans at the
present time to use movies as a regular part of the balance programming on
CITT. However, there are occasional
movies which undoubtedly fit that criteria.
We talked about a couple of them yesterday, movies like "Ghandi" or
"Masada," and in discussion yesterday that come to mind easily, "Diary of Anne
Frank," "Outside Chance of Maximillian Glick," which is actually a locally
produced film about Jewish and Christian people living in Beauséjour,
Manitoba. Things like that would fit
the balance requirements nicely and we'd like to be able to do that on an
irregular basis, a maximum we would propose of 26 times per year.
3691
So that
would provide some flexibility when it's appropriate to use that type of movie
as balance.
3692
The third
homework matter was relating to the expectation that you, Madam Chair, had
expressed with respect to Canadian content in the balance section of our
program schedule, and that's something which we feel is important to clarify
given that that was an expectation which we didn't entirely understand each
other on.
3693
In order
to give some comfort on that this time around, we would like to make a clear
commitment to seven and a half hours of Canadian balance in prime time, and what
we have in mind there of course is the news and issue-oriented programming
followed by the discussion-oriented programming, as well as the 12 hours of
Canadian balance in the schedule overall, which would be 12 of the 18 hours.
3694
The final
issue has come up a couple of times since our discussion yesterday. That relates to the monitoring of religious
program content, and we want to give some comfort in this area as well. Recognizing that the conversation we had
with you yesterday about the "ER" example, we have come to understand that our
proposal for criteria, there are still vagaries in that, okay. It's not our intention to do that. It's not our intention to leave things that
are -- we're not trying to get away with something here. So the way we would like to do that would be
to use what we -- in discussing yesterday came to refer to as the Cardozo
amendment, the concept of a committee which would assist us in filling some of
those areas where you can't, in a policy, be completely specific.
3695
So in addition
to filing the reports which we committed to doing yesterday with the
Commission, we would like to establish a religious programming advisory
committee. This would be much along the
lines of our balance committee in the sense that it would be arm's-length from
Trinity, consisting of -- we would propose five members, with the types of
revolving terms and other criteria that our balance committee presently
employs. These individuals would be
drawn from a cross section of society so that they would be representative of a
variety of points of view, not only religious points of view but also societal
points of view.
3696
We're
suggesting that it would be appropriate to do that through different
professions, for lack of a better word, including, for example, journalists,
lawyers, theologians, clergy, religious program producers would be important in
that group, educators, people with that type of background but who also have
standing in the religious community and credentials in that area so that they
are qualified and respected in the area that they can speak to religious
content and have a meaningful input on that subject.
3697
As I
said, their role would be in part to help tighten up those criteria but also to
apply them in a way that will be consistent and make sense from an objective
point of view, from an arm's-length point of view.
3698
Those are
the proposals that we bring out of yesterday's discussion. Unless you have specific questions at this
time, I'll turn it over to Willard to begin our response to the interveners.
3699
THE
CHAIRPERSON: I actually do have two
questions. When you talk about the
movies and you say some flexibility to a maximum of 26 a year, do you mean 26
movies a year?
3700
MR.
REIMER-EPP: Twenty-six movies a year,
yes.
3701
THE
CHAIRPERSON: Not 26 hours or --
3702
MR.
REIMER-EPP: I'm sorry, yes, 26 movies.
3703
THE
CHAIRPERSON: And on the Cancon and
balance, is seven and a half hours Canadian in prime time and 12 hours Canadian
balance outside of prime?
3704
MR.
REIMER-EPP: No, overall in total.
3705
THE
CHAIRPERSON: In total, okay. thank you.
3706
MR.
REIMER-EPP: Including the seven and a
half.
3707
THE
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Thank you.
Mr. Cardozo?
3708
COMMISSIONER
CARDOZO: Just one question. On this religious programming advisory
committee, would that apply to programming just in the Winnipeg station or the
Fraser Valley station as well?
3709
MR.
REIMER-EP: Well, for the purpose of
this hearing, I guess we'd be committing for the Winnipeg station, but I can
tell you that our discussion would be that this would apply for British
Columbia as well, in practice. It would
make sense that we would want to do that.
3710
THE
CHAIRPERSON: Go ahead, when you're
ready.
3711
MR.
THIESSEN: Good afternoon, Madam Chair
and Commissioners. I would like to
begin by thanking the interveners who came out this morning to support our
application. I sincerely appreciate
their input and look forward to working with them in the event that our
application is granted.
3712
In reply
to the intervention by Craig Broadcasting Systems, I would like to begin by saying
that we certainly appreciate the fact that Trinity has been able to purchase
time on A-Channel from time to time over the years and applaud them for making
room on their schedule for religious barter programs.
3713
With
respect to the program "It's A New Day," I have mentioned to the Commission
already and wish to reiterate that we have been given notice that Global may
drop our program from their schedule in Winnipeg within the year, as they have
already done in other markets, in order to rationalize programming across their
national network. Consequently, I
believe that they would be quite well prepared for the impact of any change
that we might initiate in moving our program to CITT.
3714
With
respect to demand for our service, I admit that we were not willing to pay the
entry fee required to obtain a survey of viewers in Winnipeg to provide
evidence of demand. However, I would
suggest that the 2,000 letters of support which the Commission has received, as
well as the eloquent testimony of the appearing interveners from all
backgrounds and faith persuasions this morning, should go some distance in
allaying any concerns that the Commission may have in that regard.
3715
I also
wish to point out that Winnipeg is home to some of the largest per capita and
most dynamic religious communities in Canada, including some of the country's
largest and fastest growing churches.
While this is anecdotal information, I believe it is indicative of the
nature of the community that we know CITT will serve.
3716
I would
like to ask Shane Neufeld to address issues related to the impact of CITT on
incumbent broadcasters in the Winnipeg market.
3717
MR.
NEUFELD: Thanks Willard. Good afternoon Madam Chair,
Commissioners. I would like to address
the issues raised by Cam Cowie in respect to CITT's impact on local revenues
for CHMI. The Commission's records will
indicate that approximately only 20 to 25 percent of total CHMI revenues are
derived from the local market.
Consequently, our impact on the crust of his pie will be minimized. In fact, I would suggest that the 5 percent
of revenues which we project to derive from incumbent broadcasters in our
applications would be, in relative terms, no more than a tablespoon of sugar,
to push the pie analogy further than it was ever intended to go. In literal terms, this is a total of only
$35,000 per year divided amongst the three incumbent broadcasters.
3718
I also
wish to clarify that while A‑Channel does sell $25 advertising spots,
they are found in late-night time slots.
By comparison, our average non-prime price is $20 and average prime time
price will be $50. The distinction is
significant when considering the impact on CHMI's local sales.
3719
The
proportion of national sales in CHMI's revenues is indicative of the heavy
reliance by the incumbents on national advertising across the board. Radio, by contrast, relies on local
advertising. Consequently, it is
understandable that radio revenues are up even if television PBITs are
down. Our proposal for CITT is to
derive 60 percent of revenues from local advertising ‑‑ it is
supposed to be 60 ‑‑ which allows us to bypass the
difficulties of the incumbents without having any meaningful impact on
them.
3720
While
there has certainly been fragmentation in Canadian television viewing patterns
over recent years, this fragmentation is the result of the inability of
conventional broadcasters to serve the demand for more viewing choices. It sounds as though I only need to hire
A-Channel's receptionist to demonstrate that viewers are looking for something
different than from what is currently available on conventional
television. It does not take many years
in the broadcast business to receive enough letters from viewers to understand
what it is that makes them unhappy and conversely what they are looking for.
3721
MR. SMITH: Commissioners, Madam Chair. I believe that the perspective brought by
the intervener this morning spoke to the most difficult aspect of regulating
religious programming -- the smell test.
As has been acknowledged by the intervener and the Commission this
morning, we do not have a desire to slip over into being a conventional
broadcaster.
3722
We are a
religious charity with religious objectives and a non-profit structure. These things address our motivations at
their core. In order to assist you in regulating
what has the potential to be a Pandora's box as mentioned this morning, we want
to add an additional piece to the condition of licence which we proposed
yesterday.
3723
You are
already familiar with our balance committee and the structure it employs to
safeguard the subjective issues related to religious balance content. We would like to adapt that structure to
accomplish a similar purpose in the religious content area. The religious programming advisory committee
that John outlined earlier will help us to fulfil the ambiguities inherent in
the definition of religious programming and the programming criteria that we
have set out.
3724
I
appreciated Ms. Strain's observation that she knew that "Little House on the
Prairie" and "Leave it to Beaver" would be suitable for a religious station
because she had seen the programs and knew what they were about.
3725
Under our
proposal, this will become the job of our religious programming advisory
committee, which will be obliged not just to look at the names on the schedule
but to actually vet the programming itself to see that it is presented as
religious in good faith. As an
arm's-length body, we expect that this will be helpful not only in reassuring
the Commission but also other broadcasters and our own constituency.
3726
Although
we are last in line for the purchasing of programming, I want to be clear that
we are not looking for the leftovers or the old programs but rather the best
religious programming that is available to us under the circumstances. For example, at present "7th Heaven" is not
aired in this market. As a highly
successful program about a pastor and his family, it is a perfect fit for our
station and we are interested in acquiring it if it is available at the time. "Touched by an Angel" in syndication is also
available in this market at present, and we would be interested in that
program. However, we simply confirm
that we will not compete for these programs in the event that a local
broadcaster wishes to air them.
3727
In the
Commission's ongoing mandate to balance the interests of the community in more
varied choice with the viability of incumbent broadcasters, we would urge the
Commission to air on the side of the community. We are proposing an unprecedented 24-hour commitment to Canadian
local programming as well as a level of opportunity for balance programming
which is also new and extremely valuable to this market. We are prepared to reinvest the profits made
from any American programming dollar for dollar into Canadian programming. Despite Mr. Cowie's comment that this is
essentially the model that existing broadcasters already follow, I suspect that
Global shareholders would not commit to set aside all profits from "Friends" or
the Super Bowl specifically for Canadian programming. I believe what we offer to this community is unique.
3728
MR.
THIESEN: Commissioners, I believe that
CITT will be good for Winnipeg in every way, both in serving individual viewers
and our communities of faith. We have
demonstrated our commitment to balance in our programming, good faith and
effectiveness in our programming choices, and our desire to add momentum to
something new in Canada -- the building of a religious program production
industry. This application will do much
to further the Commission's mandate under the Broadcasting Act
and I therefore urge you to license CITT Winnipeg.
3729
We would
be pleased to take any further questions that you may have at this time.
3730
THE
CHAIRPERSON: Counsel.
3731
LEGAL
COUNSEL: Just a few questions, most of
which arise, I think, from either the reply or the undertakings, if I may.
3732
First of
all, the asterisk that you have put on the CITT block schedule of up to 26
moves per year will count as balance programming. I take it if that found its way into a condition of licence you
would be comfortable with that?
3733
MR.
REIMER-EPP: Yes, we would.
3734
LEGAL
COUNSEL: On the example of -- on the
CNHU block schedule, I just have a couple of questions on, let's say "Online 60
Minutes," which appears, for example, Monday from, I guess, 9:00 p.m. to 11:00;
is that right?
3735
MR.
SMITH: That's correct, 9:00 to 11:00
p.m.
3736
LEGAL
COUNSEL: Do you purchase first window
opportunity for "60 Minutes"?
3737
MR.
SMITH: What we've done with "60
Minutes" is actually sub-licensed the program from the national rights holder
and we hold only the Vancouver rights for that program. By contractual arrangement with the rights
holder, we are required to carry, I guess, what you might call a second window
or we're required to carry it after the U.S. broadcast, which the rights holder
would carry in simulcast.
3738
LEGAL
COUNSEL: So does that apply to some of
the other U.S. programming that you have such as "Dateline"? Is that a second window or a first window as
well?
3739
MR.
SMITH: That situation is the same with
"60 Minutes," "Dateline" and "Touched by an Angel," and also, actually, the one
Canadian program that's in the schedule, which is "Doc," which we have a
limitation as to the scheduling of it as well.
3740
LEGAL
COUNSEL: So just in the process of
acquiring it, there has been a contractual limitation put on the exhibition as
a result of that process?
3741
MR.
SMITH: In that case, yes, that's
true.
3742
LEGAL
COUNSEL: If you found, let's say for
"60 Minutes," that, for example, you could get it for Vancouver but you
couldn't get it for Winnipeg, would you have any overall practice or idea of
what you might do? Are you looking for
efficiencies or are you looking for individual sell for each of the
markets? What I'm wondering about is
would you go after another product instead if you could get it for both markets
or would you give preference to something even if you could only get it for one
of the two?
3743
MR.
SMITH: We would not only go after a
program if we were available to get it for the two markets. Certainly we'd love to have a conversation
with the same program supplier about the same program but if it was not
available in Winnipeg, that would not preclude us from talking about in
Vancouver. Am I answering your
question?
3744
LEGAL
COUNSEL: It sounds like it would be
almost case by case.
3745
MR.
SMITH: It certainly is case by
case. We're committed to the idea of
issue-oriented programming where we're able to present the relevant religious
issue and then have conversation and engage our audience. That's what we're committed to doing. And so certainly it would be nice to be able
to line up the same programming but it's not essential if it's not
available.
3746
LEGAL
COUNSEL: Thank you. Taking again that same example of "Online 60
Minutes," can you explain -- are you using all or some of it as balance
programming? I'm just looking at the
CHNU block schedule, "60 Minutes," Monday from 9:00 to 11:00.
3747
MR.
SMITH: Yes, the schedule with the
shading on it may be a little bit unclear, certainly in the purple areas, but
we are including the entire two-hour block there as balance.
3748
LEGAL
COUNSEL: I can understand the second of
the two hours, why that would count as balance. But can you explain why the first hour would count as balance?
3749
MR.
SMITH: Well, certainly the first hour
of the programming is prompting the relevant issues and is discussing the -- is
presenting the relevant issues, so it's very much part of a springboard
approach if you will. It is the
platform on which all of the discussion is based that follows.
3750
MR.
NEUFELD: If I could also add, the
concept behind that being balance is to balance off the predominately Christian
perspective within our overall schedule and the desire, and it is the reality
that these news magazines offer typically a non-Christian perspective on world issues.
3751
LEGAL
COUNSEL: But if I can come back to it,
you've used, I think, some of the local avails as your springboard where you
insert some content for advertising time that you haven't sold in that first
hour to say listen to us in the second hour because we're going to discuss
this. How many minutes would you insert
into that first hour to generate that springboard?
3752
MR.
SMITH: The number of minutes
varies. We certainly start the entire
block with an introduction, using our studio host, and then periodically
adjacent commercial breaks throughout the program also prompt the discussion
that we're talking about.
3753
So as you
may know or as we may have talked about yesterday, generally U.S. network
programming has an excess number of commercial availabilities or commercial
holes in it. And it varies from program
to program, for sure, and indeed from week to week. But that would likely be in the range of three to five minutes.
3754
LEGAL
COUNSEL: I'm just wondering if there
would be any sort of minimum number of minutes. I know it varies but will it be the minimum number of minutes in
that first hour including things that you may say at the beginning of the hour
as well as the commercial avails during the hour that you use as a springboard
to tell the listener to listen to that second hour because you're going to
discuss it?
3755
MR.
SMITH: I would think and you are sort
of asking me to go back over an awful lot of program formats on a week-to-week
basis because they do vary considerably from week to week. But I would think the minimum would likely
be three minutes.
3756
LEGAL
COUNSEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.
3757
THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. We have no more questions. Thank you very much panel. This does, I believe, conclude our
hearing.
3758
I want to
thank all of the radio applicants in their absence for their thought and care
in preparing their applications and for their excellent presentations. I also want to thank Trinity for the same,
their thought and care in preparing their application and for your thoughtful presentation
and rebuttal.
3759
I wish to
thank my fellow Commissioners for coming to my region and enjoying life here in
Winnipeg. I want to thank all of the
interveners for taking the time out of their schedule to come here and give us
their views.
3760
I want to
thank the staff, both the regional staff and the national staff that came to
Winnipeg for a lovely mid-winter semitropical vacation. So I gather that before I end this, Mr.
Secretary has something to say.
3761
THE
SECRETARY: Yes, I do. Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to note for the record that
there are a number of non-appearing applications associated with this
proceeding as listed in the agenda.
Although there is no oral presentation for these applications, they are
nevertheless part of the public hearing and as such they will be considered by
the Commission and a decision will be rendered at a later date.
3762
Thank
you, Madam Chair.
3763
THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. And before I end, I'm reminded to thank the
court reporter and the audio people at the back, and thank you Winnipeg.
--- Whereupon the hearing concluded at 1340
/L'audience est levée à 1340
- Date de modification :