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Providing Content in Canada's Official Languages

Please note that the Official Languages Act requires that government publications be available in both official languages.

In order to meet some of the requirements under this Act, the Commission's transcripts will therefore be bilingual as to their covers, the listing of CRTC members and staff attending the hearings, and the table of contents.

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded verbatim transcript and, as such, is transcribed in either of the official languages, depending on the language spoken by the participant at the hearing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

              TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS BEFORE

             THE CANADIAN RADIO‑TELEVISION AND

               TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION

 

 

 

 

             TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DEVANT

              LE CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION

           ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES

 

 

 

 

 

 

                          SUBJECT:

 

 

 

VARIOUS BROADCAST APPLICATIONS /

PLUSIEURS DEMANDES EN RADIODIFFUSION

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

HELD AT:                              TENUE À:

 

Westin Edmonton Hotel                 l'Hôtel Westin Edmonton

10135 100th Street                    10135, 100e rue

Edmonton, Alberta                     Edmonton (Alberta)

 

June 19, 2006                         Le 19 juin 2006

 


 

 

 

 

Transcripts

 

In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages

Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be

bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members

and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of

Contents.

 

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded

verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in

either of the official languages, depending on the language

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.

 

 

 

 

Transcription

 

Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues

officielles, les procès‑verbaux pour le Conseil seront

bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des

membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience

publique ainsi que la table des matières.

 

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu

textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée

et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues

officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le

participant à l'audience publique.


               Canadian Radio‑television and

               Telecommunications Commission

 

            Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des

               télécommunications canadiennes

 

 

                 Transcript / Transcription

 

 

 

 

 

VARIOUS BROADCAST APPLICATIONS /

PLUSIEURS DEMANDES EN RADIODIFFUSION

 

 

 

 

 

BEFORE / DEVANT:

 

Michel Arpin                      Chairperson / Président

Barbara Cram                      Commissioner / Conseillère

Rita Cugini                       Commissioner / Conseillère

Ronald Williams                   Commissioner / Conseiller

Stuart Langford                   Commissioner / Conseiller

 

 

 

 

ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:

 

Chantal Boulet                    Secretary / Secrétaire

Joe Aguiar                        Hearing Manager /

Gérant de l'audience

Anne-Marie Murphy/                Legal Counsel /

Shari Fisher                      Conseillères juridiques

 

 

 

 

 

 

HELD AT:                          TENUE À:

 

Westin Edmonton Hotel             l'Hôtel Westin Edmonton

10135 100th Street                10135, 100e rue

Edmonton, Alberta                 Edmonton (Alberta)

 

June 19, 2006                     Le 19 juin 2006

 

 


           TABLE DES MATIÈRES / TABLE OF CONTENTS

 

 

                                                 PAGE / PARA

 

 

PRESENTATION BY / PRÉSENTATION PAR:

 

 

1097282 Alberta Ltd.                                8 /   41

 

Allan Hunsperger                                   81 /  454

 

Newcap                                            154 /  982

 

O.K. Radio Group Ltd.                             216 / 1413

 

 


               Edmonton, Alberta / Edmonton (Alberta)

‑‑‑ Upon commencing on Monday, June 19, 2006

    at 0930 / L'audience débute le lundi

    19 juin 2006 à 0930

LISTNUM 1 \l 11                THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to this public hearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12                My name is Michel Arpin and I am the Vice‑Chair of Broadcasting for the CRTC.  I will be presiding over this hearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13                Joining me on the panel are my colleagues, Barbara Cram, Regional Commission for Manitoba and Saskatchewan; Rita Cugini, Regional Commissioner for Ontario; Ron Williams, Regional Commissioner for Alberta and the Northwest Territories; and Stuart Langford, National Commissioner.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14                The Commission team assisting us includes Hearing Manager Joe Aguiar; Manager, English Radio Applications; Legal Counsels Anne‑Marie Murphy and Shari Fisher; as well as Chantal Boulet, Hearing Secretary.  Please speak with Mrs. Boulet if you have any questions with regard to hearing procedures.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15                At this hearing, we will first study 10 applications to operate a new English‑language commercial FM radio station in Grande Prairie, Alberta.  We will then look at nine applications to operate an English‑language commercial FM radio station in the Fort McMurray market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16                The panel will examine the applications in the order in which they are listed in Broadcasting Notice of Public Hearing CRTC 2006‑4.  Some applications are competing technically for the use of the same frequencies in the Grande Prairie and in the Fort McMurray markets.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17                The panel will study the proposals to operate a new radio station in light of the cultural, economic and social objectives defined in the Broadcasting Act.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18                The panel will base its decision on several criteria, including the state of competition and the diversity of editorial voices in the market, as well as the quality of the applications.  It will also look at the ability of the markets to support new radio stations, the financial resources of each applicant, and proposed initiatives for the development of Canadian talent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19                I will now invite the Secretary, Mrs. Chantal Boulet, to explain the procedures we will be following.

LISTNUM 1 \l 110               Mrs. Boulet.


LISTNUM 1 \l 111               THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

LISTNUM 1 \l 112               Before beginning, I would like to go over a few housekeeping matters to ensure the proper conduct of this hearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 113               When you are in the hearing room, a reminder to please turn off your cell phones, beepers and BlackBerries as they are unwelcome distractions for participants and commissioners and they cause interference on the internal communication systems.  We would appreciate your cooperation throughout the hearing in this regard.

LISTNUM 1 \l 114               We expect the hearing to take approximately one week.  We will begin each morning, starting tomorrow, at 8:30 and finish approximately around 7:00 p.m.  We will take an hour for lunch and a break in the morning and in the afternoon.  We will let you know of any schedule changes that may occur.

LISTNUM 1 \l 115               The Centennial Room, which is located immediately outside the hearing room, will serve as the examination room where you can view the public files of the applications being considered at this hearing.  As indicated in the agenda, the telephone number of the examination room is 780‑493‑8957.


LISTNUM 1 \l 116               There is a verbatim transcript of this hearing being taken by the court reporter at the table across the room from me.  If you have any questions on how to obtain all or part of this transcript, please approach the court reporter during a break.

LISTNUM 1 \l 117               Please note that the full transcript will be made available on the Commission's website shortly after the conclusion of the hearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 118               For the record, I would like to indicate that the Commission has approved the request of Sun Country Cablevision Ltd. on behalf of a corporation to be incorporated, which is item 6 on the Notice of Public Hearing 2006‑4, to amend its application by removing the letter and attachment from target broadcast sales dated June 27th, 2005.  The letter and attachment no longer form part of the application before the Commission and will not be taken into consideration by the Commission in its deliberations.


LISTNUM 1 \l 119               In addition, with respect to the applications by Cogeco Cable Quebec Inc., which are items 26, 27 and 28 on Notice of Public Hearing 2006‑4, the Commission has advised the applicant by letter that paragraphs 17 to 27 and 45, as well as Appendix 1 of the applicant's reply, will not be considered by the Commission during its deliberations.  The Commission's letters and related documents are available as part of the public record in the examination room.

LISTNUM 1 \l 120               As indicated earlier, we will begin the hearing by considering the competing applications for the Grande Prairie market, followed by the competing applications for the Fort McMurray market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 121               We will be proceeding with a four‑phase process as follows.

LISTNUM 1 \l 122               First, we will hear each applicant in the agenda order and each applicant will be granted 20 minutes to make his presentation.  Questions from the Commission will follow each presentation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 123               In Phase II, the applicants reappear in the same order to intervene if they wish on the competing applications.  Ten minutes are allowed for this purpose and questions may follow from the Commission.

LISTNUM 1 \l 124               In Phase III, other parties will appear in the order set out in the agenda to present their appearing intervention and 10 minutes will be allowed for each presentation.  Again, questions from the Commission may follow.


LISTNUM 1 \l 125               Finally, Phase IV provides an opportunity for each applicant to reply to all the interventions submitted on their application.  Applicants appear in reverse order and 10 minutes are allowed for this reply.  Again, questions may follow by the Commission.

LISTNUM 1 \l 126               Mr. Chairman.

LISTNUM 1 \l 127               THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.  In order to keep peace during this first day of the hearing ‑‑ (puts Edmonton Oilers cap on).

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

‑‑‑ Applause / Applaudissements

LISTNUM 1 \l 128               THE CHAIRPERSON:  The members of the panel have agreed to sit until 5:00 p.m. today in order to allow you to go and watch the game.

‑‑‑ Applause / Applaudissements

LISTNUM 1 \l 129               THE CHAIRPERSON:  I know that my buddy Mr. Williams will also want to add something about it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 130               COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you, Chairman Arpin.  It is my pleasure to invite the Wayne Gretzky of broadcasting up to the podium to help me officially welcome you all to Edmonton, home of the mighty Edmonton Oilers and Stanley Cup contenders.

‑‑‑ Edmonton Oilers sign put up /

    Enseigne des Edmonton Oilers érigé

‑‑‑ Applause / Applaudissements


LISTNUM 1 \l 131               COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  You are now officially in oil country and that is okay.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 132               THE CHAIRPERSON:  Welcome around the ring and let us start the hearing.  If I am wearing headphones, it is not because I am getting the translation, it is because it helps me to better understand what you say.  The sound around the place is very dim and so it enhances things when you are talking.  So don't think I am looking to get the translation of what you say.

LISTNUM 1 \l 133               COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I thought you were getting the soccer scores.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 134               THE CHAIRPERSON:  Now, Madam Secretary will introduce the first applicant.

LISTNUM 1 \l 135               THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

LISTNUM 1 \l 136               We will now proceed with item 1 on the agenda, which is an application by 1097282 Alberta Ltd. for a licence to operate an English‑language FM commercial radio programming undertaking in Grande Prairie.


LISTNUM 1 \l 137               The new station would operate on frequency 96.3 MHz (channel 242C1) with an effective radiated power of 100,000 watts (non‑directional antenna/antenna height of 265.5 metres).

LISTNUM 1 \l 138               The Commission recently approved the application (2006‑0257‑5) for the transfer of all of the issued and outstanding shares of 1097282 Alberta Ltd. held by Mr. Edward Tardif and Mr. Remi Tardif to Radio CJVR Ltd.  The letter of approval (L2006‑0028, dated 11 May 2006) has been added to the public examination file.

LISTNUM 1 \l 139               As well, the applicant has provided the Commission this morning two letters that will be placed on the examination file as well, one which is dated June 15th from the President of Radio CJVR Ltd., Mr. Gene Fabro, as well as another letter dated June 1st from Mel Wang, Account Manager.  These two letters will be available on the public examination file of this application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 140               Appearing for the applicant is Mr. Gene Fabro who will introduce his colleagues.  You will then have 20 minutes to make your presentation.  Please go ahead.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

LISTNUM 1 \l 141               MR. SINGER:  Good morning, Mr. Chairman and commissioners, and go Oilers.


LISTNUM 1 \l 142               My name is Ken Singer.  I am Vice‑President and General Manager of Radio CJVR Ltd.

LISTNUM 1 \l 143               Before we begin our presentation, I would like to introduce you to the members of our team.

LISTNUM 1 \l 144               On my right is the President and owner of Radio CJVR, Gene Fabro.

LISTNUM 1 \l 145               To my left is Kevin Gemmell, General Sales Manager of our company and a former Grande Prairie resident and broadcaster in that market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 146               To Kevin's left is Remi Tardif.  Remi and his father Ed prepared the application before you as the principals of 1097282 Alberta Ltd., a company now controlled by Radio CJVR Ltd.

LISTNUM 1 \l 147               It is our pleasure to appear before you this morning and tell you about our broadcasting company and our plans for an exciting new radio station to serve Grande Prairie and area.

LISTNUM 1 \l 148               Mr. Chairman and members of the Commission, Radio CJVR is pleased to appear before you today seeking approval of our proposed new Classic Hits station on 96.3 FM to serve Grande Prairie and surrounding communities.


LISTNUM 1 \l 149               If licensed, CJVR will provide Grande Prairie and its more than 43,000 residents with a dynamic new FM radio station whose unduplicated Classic Hits format will add significant diversity and listener choice to the local marketplace.

LISTNUM 1 \l 150               Approval of 96.3 FM will result in many key public benefits accruing to the following:

LISTNUM 1 \l 151               ‑ the diverse array of urban and rural communities across the region;

LISTNUM 1 \l 152               ‑ those underserved listeners within the 18‑54 demographic spectrum hungering for more musical choices on local radio;

LISTNUM 1 \l 153               ‑ local businesses seeking an alternative radio advertising vehicle to better reach and serve their customers on a cost‑efficient basis;

LISTNUM 1 \l 154               ‑ local Canadian talent in need of financial assistance and on‑air exposure;

LISTNUM 1 \l 155               ‑ cultural and performing arts organizations who support and promote local Canadian talent;

LISTNUM 1 \l 156               ‑ Alberta's private commercial radio sector; and

LISTNUM 1 \l 157               ‑ the Canadian broadcasting system as a whole.

LISTNUM 1 \l 158               As well, approval of 96.3 FM will establish competitive balance within the local radio spectrum by providing a distinct alternative news voice for the benefit of Grande Prairie and the surrounding area residents.


LISTNUM 1 \l 159               In addition to enhanced programming diversity, added listener choice and competitive balance, CJVR brings important ownership diversity to Grande Prairie's radio market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 160               As an independent career broadcaster solely dedicated to radio, CJVR and its Albertan owners, the Fabro family, firmly believe that smaller independent radio voices have an important role to play within Alberta and Canada's private broadcast sector amidst today's increasing ownership concentration.

LISTNUM 1 \l 161               Mr. Chairman, as you know, Radio CJVR is the licensee of CKJH‑AM and CJVR‑FM in Melfort, Saskatchewan, and most recently CIXM‑FM in Whitecourt, Alberta.

LISTNUM 1 \l 162               We wish to thank commissioners and staff for the prompt manner in which they processed the application to transfer all of the issued and outstanding shares of 1097282 Alberta Limited, licensee of CIXM.  Commission approval of this transaction which was conducted under difficult circumstances was very much appreciated by all parties and has well served the public interest of Whitecourt's radio listening audience.


LISTNUM 1 \l 163               In regard, I am pleased to say that upon receiving Commission approval on May 11th, 2006, CJVR hit the ground running and will have CIXM on the air and serving the listening needs of Whitecourt residents by mid‑September 2006.

LISTNUM 1 \l 164               The relevance of the above‑noted share transfer to this Grande Prairie proceeding is directly tied to the fact that several months prior to the transaction, 1097282 responded to the Commission's call for applications for Grande Prairie as per broadcasting Public Notice CRTC 2005‑30 of April 12th, 2005.  Accordingly, 1097282, under the leadership of Remi Tardif, filed its Grande Prairie application on July 12th, 2005.

LISTNUM 1 \l 165               Hence, in addition to acquiring CIXM Whitecourt as a result of the approved share transfer, CJVR has assumed 1097282's original application filed in pursuit of a new radio broadcasting licence for Grande Prairie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 166               Given the circumstances leading up to our appearance here today seeking approval of 96.3 FM, CJVR would stress that we stand firmly behind this application and if approved will fulfil all of the commitments made by 1097282 and adhere to any conditions set out by the Commission in its licensing decision.


LISTNUM 1 \l 167               Mr. Chairman, CJVR is grateful for this opportunity to compete for 96.3 FM and we are mindful of the Commission's rules of procedure relative to an applicant amending their application after the fact.

LISTNUM 1 \l 168               In stating that, I would underline that should we be approved, CJVR will carefully review all of 96.3 FM's proposals with a view to further enhancing and exceeding any aspect of the station's operations from technical to programming to talent development that we feel will better serve Grande Prairie residents and further the public interest.

LISTNUM 1 \l 169               I might add that under the Fabro family's approach to broadcasting, they have a habit of turning minimums into maximums.  As Vice‑President and General Manager of Radio CJVR broadcast operations, I found this to be the case in Melfort and now in Whitecourt as we build for the long term.

LISTNUM 1 \l 170               CJVR believes that in all of our applications, we bring a level of programming strength, broadcast experience and understanding of small markets and a sensitivity to the broadcasting needs and aspirations and a total commitment to Canadian talent development.


LISTNUM 1 \l 171               MR. GEMMELL:  Mr. Chairman and commissioners, Grande Prairie is important to CJVR as it represents another cornerstone in our company's strategic broadcast plan to increase our critical mass in western Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 172               As an independently owned career broadcaster of 40 years, CJVR is totally committed to furthering the growth of our dedicated radio company through acquisitions and the pursuit of new licensing opportunities for Grande Prairie, Fort McMurray, Medicine Hat, Saskatoon, Regina and other initiatives as they arise.

LISTNUM 1 \l 173               Commission approval of the share transfer of 1097282 to Radio CJVR and the subsequent acquisition and imminent launch of CIXM Whitecourt was an important first step in growing our critical mass of radio stations beyond our joint AM‑FM operations in Melfort.

LISTNUM 1 \l 174               We are excited by the potential opportunity to establish a new FM at Grande Prairie, a dynamic growth centre whose expanding economic activity and population has outstripped the city's ability to keep pace with all of the service demands that such development creates, including the need for additional local radio programming choices.


LISTNUM 1 \l 175               While Grande Prairie's two existing local radio stations, CFGP with the Hot AC format and CJXX offering a country music format, do a good job in serving their respective listening audiences, they cannot be all things to all people as clearly evidenced by the need and demand for a Classic Hits format to help meet the musical preferences of the underserved 18‑54 demographic.

LISTNUM 1 \l 176               Essentially, CFGP is the most listened to local station in Grande Prairie with its hot AC music format skewing towards a younger 13‑34 demographic, whereas CJXX's country music format is most attractive to the 35‑54 demographic and in particular the 55+ age group.

LISTNUM 1 \l 177               Based on 1097282's music survey of Grande Prairie's market, Classic Hits of the 80s and 90s followed by Classic Rock were the two music formats of choice among the 18‑54 year olds.  Broken down, the largest percentage of respondents indicated the Classic Hits format would be their first preference.

LISTNUM 1 \l 178               Classic Hits 96.3 FM will add fresh diversity to Grande Prairie's local radio market by complementing rather than competing with CFGP's hot AC and CJXX's country music formats.


LISTNUM 1 \l 179               Radio CJVR, in programming 96.3 FM musically, will specialize in playing Classic Hits featuring artists such as Bryan Adams, Fleetwood Mac, Glass Tiger, Santana, Amanda Marshall and Bachman Turner Overdrive.

LISTNUM 1 \l 180               We would also note that in keeping with CJVR's dedication to supporting and exposing Canadian artists, we will program to a minimum level of 40 per cent Canadian content and will gladly accept that commitment as a condition of licence.

LISTNUM 1 \l 181               As we have done in other markets, Radio CJVR, as a matter of course, in creating greater musical diversity and enhancing the careers of both established and developing Canadian artists, will further enhance 96.3 FM's regular program schedule through the development of special musical program initiatives.

LISTNUM 1 \l 182               MR. SINGER:  Mr. Chairman, across four decades of broadcasting, CJVR has consistently provided its listeners with spoken work initiatives that focus on where they live and on those local elements that influence and shape their daily lives and activities and impact on their communities.


LISTNUM 1 \l 183               Given that 96.3 FM's 2 mV coverage contour encompasses some 57,000 persons and its .5 mV contour includes 74,000 persons, CJVR will ensure that its spoken word programming is inclusive, locally relevant, community‑driven and reflective of the daily news, events and activities that are happening in urban and rural communities throughout the coverage area.

LISTNUM 1 \l 184               In all, a minimum of 14.4 hours of 96.3 FM's weekly broadcast schedule will be devoted to spoken word programming, of which nearly 7 hours of news will be presented via 134 newscasts across the week and on weekends.

LISTNUM 1 \l 185               CJVR will also employ a number of initiatives to meet the demands of Grande Prairie residents in their quest for more information on weather, traffic, road conditions and school closings.

LISTNUM 1 \l 186               MR. SINGER:  Mr. Chairman and commissioners, CJVR brings to Grande Prairie and 96.3 FM a proud legacy of excellence, achievement and commitment in the area of talent development that has had a significantly beneficial impact on the careers of many Canadian artists who have gone on to achieve national and international success.

LISTNUM 1 \l 187               Part of that legacy is derived from the fact that CJVR Melfort has been recognized six years in succession as Canadian Country Radio Station of the Year by the Canadian Country Music Association and 11 years in a row as the Saskatchewan Country Music Station of the Year by the Saskatchewan Country Music Association.


LISTNUM 1 \l 188               The success that CJVR and its Canadian artists have enjoyed is in no small way due to the corporate resolve on the part of the Fabro family, who are totally supportive and talent friendly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 189               With respect to Grande Prairie, 1097282 has committed to $315,000 over the term of the licence in direct expenditures.  That is $45,000 per year as follows:  $20,000 for Mission Grande Prairie Talent Search; $10,000 to FACTOR; $10,000 to the Alberta Recording Industries Association; and $5,000 to Broadway Live Music Productions Inc.

LISTNUM 1 \l 190               In addition to these direct expenditure initiatives, 1097282 will contribute $5,000 annually to CKRP‑FM, a francophone non‑profit community radio station in Falher, also serving Nappa and Peace River, Alberta.

LISTNUM 1 \l 191               We would underline the fact that the direct expenditures of $45,000 per year or $315,000 over the licence term on Canadian talent initiatives are expressed as minimum expenditures.


LISTNUM 1 \l 192               As well, CJVR would note that it always includes as part and parcel of any of its Canadian talent development proposals an indirect on‑air expenditures budget that is designed to complement its direct expenditures programming by providing free air time to groups and organizations engaged in supporting and promoting local Canadian talent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 193               MR. GEMMELL:  Mr. Chairman, from CJVR's perspective there is little doubt that the Grande Prairie market is capable of supporting one or more new private commercial radio stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 194               A brief snapshot of various economic indicators reflects Grande Prairie's dramatic growth and development across a number of sectors in recent times.

LISTNUM 1 \l 195               With a diverse local economy that is fuelled by an abundance of natural resources ranging from forestry and agriculture to oil and natural gas development, Grande Prairie residents can look to the future with a great sense of optimism.

LISTNUM 1 \l 196               In terms of population, Grande Prairie recorded the strongest growth rate among Canadian cities at 18 per cent between 1996 and 2001.  Its current population of 43,000 represents a growth rate in excess of 9 per cent since the 2001 census and the city projects a population of 55,000 by 2013, a 35 per cent increase from the last census.

LISTNUM 1 \l 197               Other key economic indicators for Grande Prairie include:


LISTNUM 1 \l 198               ‑ an average family income of almost $70,000;

LISTNUM 1 \l 199               ‑ projected 2006 retail sales at $1.08 billion ‑‑ that is well above the national average;

LISTNUM 1 \l 1100              ‑ the April 2006 regional unemployment rate of 2.9 per cent is less than half the national average; and

LISTNUM 1 \l 1101              ‑ 2005 housing starts at 1,231 are up from 975 the year before.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1102              Grande Prairie is home to a growing number of national chains and retailers, numerous major shopping centres and other commercial outlets serving a market area of more than 200,000.  Despite such continuing economic growth and expanding population base, Grande Prairie is still served by only two private radio stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1103              A comparison of other cities of similar size shows Grande Prairie with fewer private radio stations per capita.  For example, Penticton, B.C. and Timmins, Ontario are served by three and four private stations respectively.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1104              MR. SINGER:  Mr. Chairman, in bringing musical and spoken word diversity and listener choice to the marketplace, 96.3 FM will strengthen Grande Prairie radio while further enhancing Alberta's private radio broadcasting sector.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1105              First, by establishing its unduplicated music format, 96.3 FM will convert former listeners into active listeners again by drawing them away from various other alternative audio options like the internet, satellite radio and portable music devices.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1106              In the absence of their musical preferences on local radio, people tune to other sources to satisfy their listening needs.  With 96.3 FM's musical offerings and locally relevant spoken word programming in place, those former listeners will come back to Grande Prairie radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1107              As well, 96.3 FM will be attractive to new residents moving to Grande Prairie from other areas where they had access to both Classic Hits and Classic Rock.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1108              Ultimately, all of these factors will rekindle interest in local radio and translate into increased hours of local tuning and an overall strengthening of the Grande Prairie market.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1109              Commission approval of 96.3 FM will also yield important benefits to the Grande Prairie business community by providing a highly cost‑efficient alternative local advertising vehicle to target and serve the 18‑54 listenership.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1110              Public interest in the proposed new FM station coupled with the commercial appeal of its Classic Hits format will also attract new advertising dollars to Grande Prairie's radio market, with minimal impact on existing local stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1111              MR. FABRO:  Mr. Chairman and Commissioners, my family has owned CJVR since 1991.  Over the past 15 years, we have contributed stability and business acumen along with our financial and moral support to management and staff.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1112              As an owner, I am proud of our accomplishments in Melfort both in terms of quality of service that our radio stations provide to over 150,000 residents of some 100 communities throughout northeast Saskatchewan and the success that CJVR has experienced in our support, promotion, exposure and development of Canadian talent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1113              Needless to say, today's broadcast industry is facing many competitive challenges from different quarters as new technologies evolve and the manner in which people receive their audio entertainment becomes more diversified in keeping with their changing lifestyle.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1114              In spite of such ever present challenges, my family remains bullish on the future of radio broadcasting and we want to do more.  CJVR has a wealth of broadcast experience, the financial strength, the human resources, the creative entrepreneurship and the corporate will to play a larger role in western Canada's private commercial radio sector.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1115              From my perspective, it is critical that motivated, independent broadcasters like Radio CJVR be given the opportunity to grow our critical mass in order to further enhance the level of programming services to our listeners, strengthen our competitive ability and provide a credible alternative to other broadcast organizations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1116              The Grande Prairie opportunity is of central importance to CJVR as it represents an integral part of our strategic broadcast plan.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1117              MR. SINGER:  Mr. Chairman and commissioners, included among the many important benefits that approval of CJVR's proposed 96.3 FM will yield for Grande Prairie and surrounding communities are the following points.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1118              96.3 FM's unduplicated music format will add significant programming diversity and listener choice to Grande Prairie radio.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1119              Through its one of a kind music format and locally relevant spoken word programming, 96.3 FM will meet many of the listening needs and preferences of Grande Prairie's 18‑54 underserved demographic.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1120              96.3 FM's diverse musical and spoken word programming will strengthen Grande Prairie radio by attracting new listeners and drawing lost listeners away from alternative audio options resulting in increased hours of tuning to local radio without impacting on existing stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1121              The public's desire for more choice coupled with the commercial appeal of a Classic Hits format will result in new radio dollars being attracted to the Grande Prairie market with minimal impact on existing stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1122              The establishment of a new Classic Hits FM station will provide local and national advertisers with a highly cost‑effective alternative advertising vehicle to better serve the maturing 18‑54 demographic.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1123              The addition of Classic Hits 96.3 FM will establish competitive balance within the Grande Prairie radio market by providing among other important elements a distinct alternative news voice.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1124              Approval of CJVR's new Classic Hits station will increase ownership diversity within Grande Prairie and Alberta's private commercial radio sector.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1125              Approval of CJVR's new undertaking will ensure continuance of a strong independent radio voice at a time when many smaller broadcast entities are disappearing through increased industry concentration.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1126              The addition of 96.3 FM to Grande Prairie's local radio spectrum will result in a series of Canadian talent development initiatives involving a minimum direct expenditure of $315,000 over the licence term.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1127              96.3 FM will optimize the utilization of the 96.3 frequency by extending its unduplicated musical format to meet the programming needs and preferences of the underserved 18‑54 demographic within Grande Prairie and surrounding communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1128              96.3 FM through its daily musical and spoken word programming will reflect the cultural and racial diversity within Grande Prairie's growing population.  Approval of 96.3 FM will result in the creation of 15 full‑time employment equity opportunities.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1129              MR. FABRO:  Mr. Chairman, it is for these reasons that we firmly believe that approval of our proposal for 96.3 frequency will best serve the public interest and we respectfully ask the Commission to approve our application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1130              On behalf of the owners, management and staff of Radio CJVR, I wish to thank the Commission for this opportunity to appear before you and your colleagues.  We will be happy to answer any questions the panel may have.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1131              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Fabro.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1132              I am asking Mr. Ron Williams to ask the first questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1133              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Good morning, Mr. Fabro, Mr. Singer, panellists.  Is it most appropriate that I perhaps direct my questions to Mr. Singer and he can redirect them?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1134              MR. SINGER:  I thing that would be fine, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1135              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay.  In your opening remarks you stated that smaller independent radio voices have an important role to play within Alberta and Canada's broadcasting sector amidst today's increasing ownership concentration.  Could you please elaborate on that statement?


LISTNUM 1 \l 1136              MR. SINGER:  Well, I think, Mr. Commissioner, obviously frequencies are becoming more and more rare.  We are looking across Canada and seeing that the larger markets, the choices are getting tighter and tighter for frequencies.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1137              What we see in many instances is that the big players in the broadcasting industry in Canada are now turning their attention to the smaller markets.  So there has never been a more important time to us as small market broadcasters to up our stakes a bit and acquire more licences to remain competitive in the broadcasting industry as a whole.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1138              We also feel that a small market radio, which we specialize in, is something that is very locally driven and certainly something that would fit the markets that we are applying in in terms of offering new diversification and a new level of local service that we know so well, that we have practised for over 40 years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1139              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  What special competitive edge can a smaller broadcaster bring in a marketplace that may have a national broadcaster presence?


LISTNUM 1 \l 1140              MR. SINGER:  Well, I have been in the radio business all my life ‑‑ and I guess you could say most of that activity was in smaller markets ‑‑ and I really feel that the level of talent is certainly commendable.  One of the great things about the business that I have come to love is that in those markets we aren't just a voice in the box.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1141              Our broadcasters are known by everyone in the community.  We involve ourselves with everything that is going on and not just from the point of view of promoting it.  Our people are on committees.  They take part in the activities and they are organizers and their families participate in those communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1142              I think that that is where radio is.  I mean the small market radio can still do that.  I think one of the real competitive edges we have is that when a decision has to be made about any of our operations, we can quickly make that decision, sometimes within minutes or within hours.  We find that the bigger broadcasters don't have that turnaround time because they are driven largely by head offices in larger centres.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1143              I just feel that radio's immediacy is probably even more effective because of the way small market broadcasters or smaller stations can operate.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1144              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Can you as a small broadcaster, Mr. Singer, compete with a larger organization for on‑air talent or other radio station staff and resources given their economy of scale compared to a smaller broadcaster?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1145              MR. SINGER:  That is a good question, Commissioner Williams.  I guess one of the reasons that we have developed our strategic plan to expand is so that we can compete for talent and better talent because it is one of the challenges of small group operations such as ours that currently operate three radio stations to attract the level of talent that sees opportunities for growth within our company as opposed to working for one of the bigger operations that have many, many opportunities available to them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1146              I think from a calibre of talent that we attract, however, we do very well at that.  We have within our company a handful of people that have spent more than 25 years with us and are sought after but they choose the kind of radio that we offer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1147              Without question, if we are successful in any of our applications, it is just going to strengthen our company and enable us to recruit and develop that much better calibre of talent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1148              MR. FABRO:  May I add a few points there, Commissioner Williams?


LISTNUM 1 \l 1149              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Of course, Mr. Fabro.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1150              MR. FABRO:  I was just reflecting on Mr. Singer's comments with regards to our staff.  We have nine persons that have an average longevity with us of 19 years.  These people aren't in the market at all for the money because we are somewhat restricted in terms of what we can afford to pay but they are certain broadcasters of longevity and very, very involved in the community and that is the community type of radio that we do.  I don't believe that the larger broadcasters can deliver the same type of community service that we do in terms of our being in touch with the local community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1151              Also, our love of the business, I think, is so much more ingrained because a lot of our on‑air staff and back room staff are from the local area.  They understand what the problems are and it just flows through the way we deliver radio because they are from a farming community and their roots are in the farm and they understand how to deliver the message to their fellow citizens where they grew up.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1152              I think our brand of radio is much more sincere than the larger chains that deliver the messages from afar.  I think our brand of radio is something that the Canadian broadcast system needs and I think that in order to have a better broadcast system we need smaller independent operators like ours to survive.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1153              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  On page 9 of your opening remarks, Mr. Fabro, you stated:

"In spite of such ever present challenges, my family remains bullish on the future of radio broadcasting and we want to do more."  (As read)

LISTNUM 1 \l 1154              What would cause you not to remain bullish?  Like are these licences that you have applied in this hearing and in others essential to your survival and your interest in the radio business?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1155              MR. FABRO:  Commissioner Williams, that is absolutely true.  It is a matter of survival.  Like the small orphan broadcaster can't really compete.  You have to have certain economies of scale in order to survive the vagaries of the market.  Especially where we are at in Saskatchewan when we have downturns in the agriculture economy, it is almost like we are farmers because we feel the effects directly.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1156              In order to diversify the risk we need more licences.  We need more licences to survive, to give a return to the investors and to service the public.  It is not just a matter of obtaining licences just to put a notch on our belt, it is a requirement that we actually need licences to move forward to survive as an independent broadcaster.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1157              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you, Mr. Fabro.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1158              Mr. Singer, when you were preparing your application for Grande Prairie ‑‑ I think we know it can be described as a higher cost area, a lower unemployment area.  What are your thoughts regarding the high cost of living within Grande Prairie and the effect it would have on attracting employees and do you have unique plans to deal with these challenges in such a community?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1159              MR. SINGER:  Mr. Commissioner, we certainly are aware of the ups and downs of the Alberta economy.  Without question, the costs of operating a radio station are going to be significantly higher than they are in Saskatchewan but also we feel that the revenue opportunities are that much greater in Grande Prairie, so it certainly offsets that.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1160              We are here today ‑‑ as mentioned in our presentation, we are not amending anything that was presented by Remi and his father Ed in this application and we will adhere to the business plan that is in there.  However, we do have the resources to invest perhaps heavier in the programming expense side and we recognize we likely will have to.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1161              But at the same time we see tremendous growth opportunity in the Grande Prairie market and we are prepared to deal with that and certainly recognize, as Mr. Fabro alluded to, that we have to grow our operations to acquire talent that is maybe a notch above what we have been doing in smaller markets in the Grande Prairie market and that is going to cost more money but we are prepared to deal with that most definitely.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1162              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  How, as business owners, do you reconcile the fact that you may have to in fact pay a higher wage in Grande Prairie than your employees are currently enjoying and how do you explain that disparity within the company?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1163              MR. SINGER:  Well, Mr. Commissioner, I don't think that is entirely that cut and dry because, as Mr. Fabro alluded to, we have a lot of long‑term employees with our company that are currently making the kind of salaries that we would be paying in the Grande Prairie market, for example.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1164              So we are not ‑‑ our staff is probably ‑‑ about half of our 32 employees are what you might called starters.  The other half are approaching 10‑, 15‑year veterans and definitely they have ‑‑ the salary costs for those people is fairly substantial in relationship to the revenues that we can attract in a smaller market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1165              So we are used to that kind of a balance and definitely we ‑‑ as I say, I go back to our business plan.  We see opportunities here with some revenue growth that is substantially higher than what we can do in our Saskatchewan operations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1166              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Given the higher cost of living, rents, housing prices, et cetera, do you feel that you will have any difficulty attracting employees to work in Grande Prairie should you be successful?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1167              MR. SINGER:  Mr. Commissioner, we deal with that in Saskatchewan and have been for 40 years.  I mean broadcasters have opportunities from coast to coast and in spite of us being in a smaller market ‑‑ Melfort is 6,000 people but we serve a large rural audience, over 100 communities ‑‑ we have a type of radio that does attract good talent.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1168              We have a great Program Director in Bill Wood who has been with us 32 years.  Bill is a tremendous teacher and we are proud to see many of the employees that we have recruited in much larger markets, in fact even major markets, just years after they work with us.  So we know going in that ‑‑ you know, we hire talent ‑‑ we like to think we hire talent that somebody is going to want someday and then we know we have got somebody good.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1169              We are very locally driven.  When we have an opportunity to hire someone from the area, someone that grew up in the market, someone who knows people already, we will definitely focus on that person over someone that comes from a great distance because we really do believe they are going to do a better job on the air.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1170              And what is it going to cost us for that person?  Well, we accept the fact that good talent costs a little more money than perhaps someone whose first job is going to be their last job.  We are just not interested in that kind of a broadcaster.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1171              MR. FABRO:  Also, part of it is we are lucky that we have a broadcast signal that all these people hear and they hear good broadcast radio.  We are a big market station in a small market community and we sound big market and these young people that hear us, they want to work and learn from a small market broadcaster that sounds like a big market broadcaster.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1172              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay, thank you.  I will move into a new area of questioning now.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1173              The objective of this question is to formalize your new ownership structure on the record, so Mr. Tardif may be involved as well.  Mr. Singer, I will direct the questions to you though.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1174              We note from your presentation this morning that Radio CJVR now controls 1097282 Alberta Ltd. following a recent transfer of shares transaction approved by the Commission.  For the record, can you confirm the following?  Is the transfer of shares transaction complete?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1175              MR. SINGER:  Yes, it is.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1176              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  The new ownership structure of 1097282 Alberta Ltd., we need to have those documents filed on the record.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1177              MR. SINGER:  They have been filed with the Commission and a copy of those documents are here today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1178              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1179              MR. SINGER:  A copy was filed with your secretary.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1180              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Very good, thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1181              Further, with reference to your Grande Prairie FM application, do you have available to you today documentary evidence to support the financing of the proposed new service?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1182              MR. SINGER:  Yes, we do and a copy of that letter has also been filed today and also with the Commission.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1183              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Presumably, in deciding to continue with Alberta 1097282 Ltd.'s application for a new FM in Grande Prairie you had the opportunity to assess and review the contents of the proposal.  Now, you alluded to and recognizing that in a highly competitive new commercial radio proceeding as this one, the Commission generally prohibits the addition or amendment of any aspect of an application that could be interpreted as serving to improve the application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1184              How comfortable are you with the program offerings and the overall business plan set out in the application by Messrs. Tardif?


LISTNUM 1 \l 1185              MR. SINGER:  Mr. Commissioner, we certainly reviewed that application and we appreciate that this is kind of a difficult situation that the Commission has and so do we in terms of the architect of that proposal and application is here with us.  While we agree that all of Mr. Tardif's ideas are doable, as we alluded to in our presentation, we will strive, if we are successful with this application, to not only meet those commitments but improve upon each and every one of them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1186              We definitely recognize that there are deficiencies in the application, that perhaps we may have done things a little bit differently had we prepared that application ourselves but we are comfortable with the end result of it in terms of identifying a format that will work in the marketplace.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1187              From a business point of view on the finances, we are comfortable with the projected sales revenue.  We do, however, feel that the operating expenses are a little conservative compared to what we would propose that it would cost us to operate this radio station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1188              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  So can we put you down as being comfortable with the original application?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1189              MR. SINGER:  Yes, you can.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1190              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1191              Mr. Singer, you describe your proposed music format as offering Classic Hits that would serve Grande Prairie in the 25‑44 demographic which you have identified as being underserved by local radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1192              Newcap is also seeking to serve the same general demographic group with music that would seem to fall under your music range description.  As an applicant in a competitive process, I assume you have reviewed the Newcap application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1193              Could you please explain how you think your format differs from the Newcap proposal and can you give us some examples to demonstrate this difference, please?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1194              MR. SINGER:  Well, I will speak to this and also ask Remi Tardif, Mr. Commissioner, to participate if he feels because Remi certainly started the ball rolling on this whole application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1195              But just generally, I would just like to say yes, we have reviewed our fellow competitors' applications and the Classic Hits and Classic Rock definitions seem to be rather interpretive here because there are certainly similarities in the music lists in terms of just looking at, you know ‑‑ I see Classic Hits as primarily music of the 80s and 90s and Classic Rock being the older genres, the 60s and 70s.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1196              However, when I see the applications and review the applications I see that everybody is looking at kind of a melding of Classic Rock and Classic Hits.  Some are identified as just Classic Rock, although there are selections from the 80s and 90s as part of it.  Some are identifying themselves as a Classic Hits station whose music mix is going to encompass some 60s and 70s music.  And there is a lot of crossover here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1197              I guess, you know, when you really get down to it, Classic Hits, Classic Rock, Remi's research ‑‑ and I will turn it over to him in a moment ‑‑ certainly suggests that both of those formats are top choices in terms of bringing something to the Grande Prairie market that isn't readily available.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1198              MR. TARDIF:  And that is what we see, we do see a crossover.  Unfortunately ‑‑ you might have seen a statistic somewhere; there are always statistics everywhere ‑‑ in any given market, 70 per cent of the music that you see is essentially from the same pool and you are seeing lots of formats being developed and being called one thing when they could be crossing over into another.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1199              When you look at the Newcap application their definition of Classic Hits seems to focus in on the 70s primarily with groups like Led Zeppelin and the softer of the Classic Rock that would cross over into the Classic Hits.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1200              This application really likes to put the focus on the 80s and 90s, and sure, there will be elements of the 70s one could argue Classic Rock but mostly in the Classic Hits format of the 80s and 90s with more range on the artists.  Many Classic Hits formats will keep it limited to a certain time frame from a certain artist and a genre.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1201              An example of this would be Madonna.  Everyone knows or many people have heard the song "Like a Virgin," and "Celebrate."  These are all songs from the 80s.  In Classic Hits many stations don't play the Madonna songs as she always reinvents herself, songs that were hits in the 90s such as Madonna's "Ray of Light" CD where we have some contemporary tunes from 10 years ago that you don't hear on Classic Hits stations from today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1202              So I guess the difference between our application and Newcap's would be our flair for more of a contemporary Classic Hits if we were to segregate it and analyze it in that form.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1203              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you, Mr. Tardif.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1204              Mr. Singer, I guess if we focus now on your demographic which you have identified as being 25‑44 age group, this age range suggests listeners with varying tastes and entertainment needs.  How do you propose to fill these needs and can you give us some examples to demonstrate these programming offerings?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1205              MR. SINGER:  Well, certainly from a musical point of view, we feel that the median age is in the mid‑30 range in Grande Prairie and to be playing a large mix of music from the 80s and 90s certainly has appeal to that demographic.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1206              We also feel that involving those listeners in the radio station in terms of loyal listener clubs ‑‑ we have proposals on our other applications that do include things that appeal to the listeners.  We definitely have a lot of spoken word that relates to things going on in the community that appeals to that demographic.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1207              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  That is this specific application we are speaking about; is that correct, Mr. Singer?


LISTNUM 1 \l 1208              MR. SINGER:  Correct.  But as I said at the outset, what is in this application is what we are limited to do.  As I say, our kind of radio is not to provide a jukebox.  We think that to compete against the new forms of audio, iPods, satellite, we have to be more than that personality radio and we have to talk to our listeners.  We have to involve them in our radio station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1209              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay.  Now, within this broad 24‑44 demo, do you have a core age group that you will be targeting?  Would the 32 that you referred to be ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1210              MR. SINGER:  I would say 25‑44 would be our core audience.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1211              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  So 25‑44, you wouldn't segregate it further?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1212              MR. SINGER:  Certainly, Classic Rock and Classic Hits do appeal to both ends of the spectrum.  I think the older spectrum has probably the greater potential than the younger spectrum with both of those formats.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1213              Again, just looking at the types of artists that Remi just alluded to, they are timeless and in talking to people in the market who know the market well, they miss that mix of music, a pure classic mix of music.  So definitely if there was some growth outside the 25‑44, I would say it would be on the 45+ side.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1214              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you, Mr. Singer.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1215              In your application, you indicate you would program a weekly Canadian content level of 40 per cent.  What would be your position if the Commission were to impose upon you a condition of licence that as a minimum 40 per cent of your weekly Category 2 music would be devoted to Canadian selections?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1216              MR. SINGER:  We would be very fine with that, Mr. Commissioner.  No problem.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1217              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Do you intend to provide 40 per cent Category 2 Canadian content between 6:00 a.m. and 6:00 p.m. Monday to Friday and if so what would be your position if the Commission were to impose this commitment as a condition of licence?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1218              MR. SINGER:  Mr. Commissioner, that would not be a difficulty.  That is the way we program our current radio stations and it would be the same in Grande Prairie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1219              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay, thank you.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1220              In the area of spoken word programming, you are proposing an overall weekly level of just over 14 hours.  Could you please identify some of the programs to be produced and the relevancy to the local Grande Prairie community?  You might want to talk about who will be responsible for producing these programs and given your plan to target a broad 25‑44 age group whose tastes and interests vary, which challenges you may face in successfully serving all of these potential listeners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1221              MR. SINGER:  Well, I will answer part of that question, first of all, who will be responsible for that.  That will be our Program Director and our News Director, and under them certainly the newspeople and the announcers will be guided and coached in both the journalistic side and also the on‑air side of spoken word.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1222              But to talk about the specific plans as per the proposal that is on file, I will turn it over to our architect, Mr. Tardif.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1223              MR. TARDIF:  As you identified, there are challenges in trying to serve the 25‑44 age range.  In the seven hours of non‑news spoken word, I tried to incorporate as much diversity within the format to allow as much diversity for the format within the area of Grande Prairie and all potential listeners in that age range.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1224              On a musical level, we do have a variety within the Classic Hits format trying to pinpoint times and be retro, be nostalgic at certain times of the week.  Such examples would be the Backtrack Countdown on Saturday which includes revisiting a certain year and a certain chart and making it sound like that point in time in today's standards, so something unique on that front.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1225              I have also included Sports Shop Talk for Sunday mornings.  Although radio is primarily motivated musically for listeners via music, Grande Prairie is buzzing with activity on a sports level.  You have a Seniors Hockey League for the entire Peace country.  Grande Prairie has 13, the Grande Prairie Athletics.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1226              You also have numerous volleyball teams, numerous basketball teams in surrounding communities including in Grande Prairie that reach notoriety on a national level, very talented people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1227              I think this one‑hour Sports Talk contributes to the diversity in the spoken word for the station on that level within the Classic Hits format.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1228              MR. SINGER:  Mr. Commissioner, I could also add, and again, as pointed out in our presentation, we certainly would adhere to those points that Mr. Tardif has raised about programming plans but when you look at the type of radio we provide at our stations ‑‑ and soon will be in Saskatchewan and soon will be in Whitecourt ‑‑ you will note many spoken word elements that we know will work in those two markets and we definitely would be employing them in the Grande Prairie market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1229              Offering our listeners opportunities to access to our airwaves, we do a tremendous amount of on‑location community broadcasting because in Saskatchewan if it wasn't for those over 100 communities that we serve we would have a very, very small market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1230              On any given month, we are out on location in those communities broadcasting from Main Street or from the Town Hall or the Library and we talk to the local people.  We put them on the air with us, talk about what is going on there and certainly that is our connectivity with our listenership.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1231              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay, thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1232              As part of the Grande Prairie Talent Search you plan to spend $20,000 annually, including $15,000 (sic) to the winner which will be used towards recording, producing and distributing a professional CD.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1233              Could you please take us through this budget distribution?  For example, will the budget portion allocated to CD recording and production involve third‑party facilities or would this be an in‑house activity?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1234              MR. SINGER:  I will turn that over to Remi and I can jump in if you want.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1235              MR. TARDIF:  Sure.  The Mission Grande Prairie Talent Search would cost about $20,000.  Now, you mentioned the winner would receive $15,000.  It is actually $5,000.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1236              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you for correcting that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1237              MR. TARDIF:  And the remaining funds would be for the production costs and promotion of that.  So if you say that there are third‑party costs, that is what the $15,000 would be, in terms of the assembling of the compact disk, the LP if you will, and the packaging and the slight distribution of it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1238              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  All paid to a third party?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1239              MR. TARDIF:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1240              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1241              I would like now to discuss with you your proposal to direct $5,000 annually to Falher French‑language community radio station which broadcasts in the Peace River region, CKRP‑FM, and I would like to remind you that under the Commission's CTD policy, qualifying initiatives involve those that are earmarked for the direct development of Canadian creative or artistic talent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1242              Based on this, how will this contribution fulfil the eligibility requirement for Canadian talent development?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1243              MR. TARDIF:  I do have it as an initiative in the application but it is not included in the $315,000.  It is, I guess, an appendix ‑‑ an appended initiative that I put in out of the goodwill of the application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1244              I am from that area.  I am from Falher, recently of hockeyville fame, and the station has been on the air for about 10 years now.  Recently with the economic hardships in that area, lots of people moving out ‑‑ agriculture, of course, is the main industry in that area ‑‑ the station has been seeing some financial difficulties.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1245              Being a new player in the area, although Falher is an hour and a half northeast of Grande Prairie, any new station in Grande Prairie will essentially affect the bilingual listeners of the Falher area who listen to this French station and potentially any other new station.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1246              On that level, I feel kind of bad for a little community radio station having some troubles.  So out of goodwill I threw that initiative in there as an extra in order to be able to help.  Charity starts at home and coming from that area, I felt it was a good way to help out my good broadcasting friends at CKRP.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1247              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  So this is a contribution over and above your CTD initiative?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1248              MR. TARDIF:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1249              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1250              Mr. Tardif, you are from the Grande Prairie area and, Mr. Singer, you are interested in working in that area.  How many new radio stations do you believe Grande Prairie could support at this time?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1251              MR. SINGER:  Well, Mr. Commissioner, first of all, let me say that I wish I had the knowledge that the CRTC would have of what the revenues are in that market for current broadcasters.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1252              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  We just gather most of that from the broadcasters.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1253              MR. SINGER:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1254              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  So don't feel bad.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1255              MR. SINGER:  Okay.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires


LISTNUM 1 \l 1256              MR. SINGER:  I hate to turn it back to you but I say you have the opportunity to make the best decision in that regard.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1257              Let me say that our business plan was certainly developed on the granting of one more licence in the marketplace.  At the same time we feel that the growth of the market by the time the successful applicant has that station on the air, that market may be that much more viable than it is today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1258              Yes, we would prefer to be approved and be the only one approved but let me tell you this, if there were two licences handed out, we wouldn't turn one back.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1259              So I certainly believe that the Commission will thoroughly evaluate the potential of the marketplace.  We have presented our financial projections and certainly are prepared to deal with any level of competition.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1260              As we noted in our presentation, similar size communities in Penticton and Timmins, Ontario have three licences and four licences respectively and we don't feel that either of those markets is enjoying the economic boom that Grande Prairie is.  So I guess it is back to you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1261              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay, thank you.  We will certainly deal with that.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1262              In the event that the Commission decides not to license you for the frequency for which you have applied, have you considered the use of another frequency, and if yes, which one, and if no, why not?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1263              MR. SINGER:  First let me say, Mr. Commissioner, that looking at the selection of applications and the number of various frequencies that have been applied for, we don't feel that we are hamstrung with the frequency that the Tardifs applied for.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1264              If we were granted approval but had to seek out another, we would turn that over to our engineering consultants who I am confident would find a good alternative for us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1265              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  If a licence was issued to your group for Grande Prairie later this year, when would Grande Prairie see a new radio station from your group?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1266              MR. SINGER:  It would be our intention to put this radio station on the air as quickly as possible for the very reasons that Mr. Fabro alluded to.  We have to increase our critical mass and do it quickly.  So there would be no point in delaying this.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1267              I would say as quickly as we could get studios built and equipment installed, we would be on and at the outset perhaps 8‑12 months and possibly earlier depending on, again, the availability of our technical resources to be able to put this operation on the air as quickly as possible.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1268              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Anecdotally, I have heard in Edmonton it can take up to two years to get a house built just because there is so much demand.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1269              Mr. Fabro, you are in the construction industry, I understand.  Do you anticipate any form of difficulty in Grande Prairie?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1270              MR. FABRO:  Having not studied the housing market in Grande Prairie, I can't really comment but given our interest in home‑building, both single and multi‑family, I think I would probably have a better chance of providing accommodation for any of our employees than other broadcasters that don't have that ability.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1271              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  And would your construction company be preparing these studios or would you be leasing or have you determined that?


LISTNUM 1 \l 1272              MR. FABRO:  In the projection it is actually leased.  The option to purchase is probably something we would favour because we are long‑term investors in real estate.  So we would have to look at that when we get the licence if we were so lucky.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1273              MR. TARDIF:  To add to that if I may, when we put in the application, considering that we are from the area and when people from the Falher area move to a bigger centre, three out of four times it is to Grande Prairie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1274              So I do have the resources in terms of knowing people and knowing businessmen in the city of Grande Prairie that would be able to lead us to a tip if we were stuck for a place to lease or build.  I can definitely contribute to Gene's efforts on that one.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1275              MR. FABRO:  And in our Whitecourt operation we have purchased the studios there, a standalone building that we will occupy and own for our station there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1276              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay, thank you, Mr. Fabro, Mr. Singer, Mr. Tardif, panel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1277              Mr. Chair, those conclude my questions at this time.  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1278              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Williams.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1279              Mrs. Cram.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1280              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you, gentlemen.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1281              Mr. Singer, you said in your initial 20‑minute talk this morning, and you repeated it again with Commissioner Williams, when you were talking about radio stations per capita and you referred to Penticton and Timmins and I think you referred to other ones in your supplementary brief.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1282              Can you tell me about the ownership issue though in Penticton and Timmins?  How many ‑‑ is it two and two owned by one company?  Is that the kind of configuration or what is the configuration?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1283              MR. SINGER:  I am really not certain of that, Commissioner Cram, but perhaps Remi, who gave us that information in the application, would know that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1284              MR. TARDIF:  Right.  I do believe in Timmins it is two and two.  I believe it is the Haliburton Group out there.  In Penticton, it escapes me at the moment but I do believe it is a two and one operation with a corporate owning the two and the other one being either an independent or a smaller operator.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1285              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And I think you referred to Brandon in your brief, did you not?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1286              MR. TARDIF:  Yes, I did.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1287              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yes.  And that, again, is ownership of two and two, right?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1288              MR. TARDIF:  Right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1289              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  I wanted also, Mr. Tardif, to ask you specifically, at Appendix 4.4 under your financial assumptions, you refer initially to "appropriate above average compensation for on‑air and news staff."

LISTNUM 1 \l 1290              MR. TARDIF:  Mm‑hmm.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1291              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And I then divided 15 into $47,000 ‑‑ I am the mathematician on the panel sometimes ‑‑

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1292              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  ‑‑ not a good one ‑‑ and I come up with a little over $3,000 average salary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1293              Can you tell me what your calculations were in that?  Like did you add a percentage, 10, 20 per cent, or how did you do that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1294              MR. TARDIF:  I took the staff of 15 ‑‑ and having to remember as well that at the time the application was put together there would be doubling up of managerial duties as the owner had we continued with me and my father under 109 and continued that way.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1295              So there would be doubling up of salaries and allowing for, I guess, leeway on that level.  So if the numbers look a little off from what you are used to seeing, it would be based on the doubling up for those responsibilities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1296              In achieving those numbers, the positions were listed off and given an amount for each salary and then added all together.  So the $47,936 you see for the salaries is the addition of the unique positions added up as opposed to an average and then given a certain percentage for bonuses and such.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1297              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So for example, if you used an announcer ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1298              MR. TARDIF:  Mm‑hmm.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1299              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  ‑‑ you looked at what you paid them in or were going to pay them in Whitecourt and you added a percentage or something or how did you do that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1300              MR. TARDIF:  I essentially had a list of the staff.  For an announcer, for example, if he is an evening guy, I had an amount, whether it be $2,000 or $2,200, and I added the salaries together.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1301              If the Commission wishes, I can provide them with a list of the specifics on that later on today.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1302              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Well, I was just wondering how you found the appropriate above average compensation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1303              MR. TARDIF:  Mm‑hmm.  This probably goes back to the recruitment appeal that Gene and Ken were talking about earlier, how bigger operations are sometimes having trouble in today's world of broadcasting because there are people that just don't want to work for a big operation but have trouble working for a smaller operation due to the financial restrictions being offered by a smaller organization.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1304              So I am aware of the salary ranges for Grande Prairie and Fort McMurray and northern Alberta as I have worked in many northern Alberta markets and I based on my experience a list of appropriate salaries ranging within what the norm is and added a certain amount to take care of the appropriate above average compensation.  So it wasn't a percentage, it was more of an extra amount onto every salary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1305              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And is this one of the expenses, Mr. Singer, that you think are conservative?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1306              MR. SINGER:  I certainly do and I know Gene wanted to offer a comment as well.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1307              MR. FABRO:  Yes.  I guess with Remi's estimate of expenses, some of the categories that he has listed there are low, some are high, but we weren't overly concerned on the detail of where he placed his funds in the budget categories but we thought the overall estimated amount of expense was reasonable, perhaps slightly low but not unreasonable.  So that is why we thought that this was a reasonable application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1308              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Because of the $100,000 contingency?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1309              MR. FABRO:  Part of that, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1310              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yes.  Because it is not ‑‑  So in your estimation of the costs, what would the true staff cost be for 15 FTEs?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1311              MR. SINGER:  Commissioner Cram, I don't have that specifically but I do have, I guess, a total figure that I think that perhaps we would have to inject somewhere in the neighbourhood of another $200,000, maybe up to $300,000 here ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1312              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  In expenses?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1313              MR. SINGER:  ‑‑ in operating expenses in comparison to the Tardifs' submission.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1314              If the Commission would like us to do so, we certainly could offer you a financial projection on that basis and file it at a very soon date.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1315              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  What, Mr. Fabro, would you say is the cost of commercial space in Grande Prairie now?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1316              MR. FABRO:  I am guessing but all in gross it would probably be in the order of ‑‑ annual per foot would probably be in the order of $15‑$18 lease rate.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1317              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yes.  And in a year's time, what do you think it would be?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1318              MR. FABRO:  Well, that is the annual rate per foot.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1319              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  All right, okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1320              How much of your programming will be voice‑tracking?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1321              MR. SINGER:  I believe that is on the submission.  Remi, I will let you refer to that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1322              MR. TARDIF:  As indicated in the deficiency reply, the indicated amount of voice‑tracking ‑‑ I guess it wasn't in there.  It was in the original application.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 1323              MR. TARDIF:  I do have 101 hours, I believe, and 125 hours; 101 would be live, 24 would be voice‑tracked ‑‑ oh, here it is on page 31, Appendix 7.6.  Live‑to‑air 105 hours and voice‑tracked would be 21 hours.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1324              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Twenty‑one?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1325              MR. TARDIF:  Twenty‑one, yes, for a total of 126 hours per week.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1326              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Will there be any other programming not produced locally?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1327              MR. TARDIF:  No, 100 per cent will be.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1328              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1329              Thank you, Mr. Chair

LISTNUM 1 \l 1330              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1331              Mr. Langford.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1332              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1333              I want to ask a few follow‑up questions as well on the subject of programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1334              It may be me.  I looked over your application and supplementary brief, I listened to your responses this morning and I am still not quite sure, in fact I am not even close to sure, frankly ‑‑ as I say, that may be my problem but you will help me with it ‑‑ how you get to 14.4 hours per week which seems to be the total number.  I see 6.9 hours of news.  I assume that is news, weather and ‑‑ I don't know how much traffic reports you need in Grande Prairie but whatever.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1335              MR. TARDIF:  You would be surprised at the number of accidents on a daily basis in that town.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1336              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Probably all in the same place though.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1337              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Can you help me through it?  Can we just break the 14.4 hours ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1338              MR. TARDIF:  Sure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1339              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  ‑‑ so I have a better understanding of how you are going to fill it, please?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1340              MR. TARDIF:  In the 14.4 ‑‑ as well, I have it broken down in Appendix 10.4 for the news and it breaks down the number of minutes per newscast and the overall scope of what the news will look like.  The remainder would be 6.9 per cent ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1341              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  6.9 hours for the news, right?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1342              MR. TARDIF:  6.9 hours for the news.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1343              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I got that part.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1344              MR. TARDIF:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1345              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  It is the remainder I don't quite understand.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1346              MR. TARDIF:  The remainder, part of that, as mentioned before, is the Sports Shop Talk which takes care of one of the hours of the remainder and the rest is guaranteed talk, if you will.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1347              If you are live, have people announce, not stick with two breaks an hour and have at least ‑‑ and that is what I did.  I went with a minimum of three breaks per hour at a minute break ‑‑ I am not saying that it has to be limited to three minutes ‑‑ and five minutes in the morning show and the afternoon show and with that I mathematically did the entire week and that is where I came up with that number.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1348              And the spoken word content of that, on top of the sports, on top of the news, would include the traffic reports, would include information on the artists and the music, would include what people have done over the past week.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1349              As you have heard, Grande Prairie is in the Peace country.  The Peace country is a vast area.  I drive 500 klicks around the Peace country on a daily basis when I am up there just to get from point A to point B and weather being very important to the verbal content of the station, many people do many different things due to this vast variety of activities that you can do.  You can go fishing at the pond.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1350              So the announcers under the leadership of Radio CJVR, where they excel at talking locally about events, local people doing extraordinary things, would be the primary source of the verbal content of the spoken word.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1351              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I don't want to be critical here but this could be categorized as what we call happy talk, right?  I mean how about those Oilers, didn't they do great, and where were you, I was fishing in the pond this weekend.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1352              I am trying to nail this down in the sense of spoken word programming because for us the notion of local reflection, true local reflection is very, very important and to hear you in your opening statements that seems to be something that you agree with, the spirit of that sort of subject, and are carrying out in your other stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1353              Yet, wouldn't you agree that it is pretty tough for us to take on faith that essentially half of your spoken word content is just trust us, it will be there, it will be relevant, we are talking back and forth among the announcers, we are perhaps having a little monologue if there is only one announcer on?


LISTNUM 1 \l 1354              But I am having trouble nailing that down.  I mean I am sorry to go on but this is a highly competitive process you are in here today, this week.  There are a lot of people who want this prize and I hope the rest of you are listening ‑‑

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1355              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  ‑‑ because it is a little hard.  You guys are the first to go ahead.  We will be tougher on the next bunch because they get to hear me rant at you now.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1356              But this is a big prize and I for one would like to know precisely, more precisely what you are going to do with half of this spoken word commitment.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1357              MR. TARDIF:  Mm‑hmm.  And it would be representative in a section ‑‑ as I mentioned, the formula that I created, three minutes per hour and in the mornings and in the afternoons five minutes per hour of talk, and you are going, well, what are you going to talk about for five minutes other than the Oilers and what is going to happen two days from now after everybody wakes up with a hangover.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1358              The community in Grande Prairie is filled with many organizations and although in the application it is not indicated, in the last half of every hour, the last minute of every hour, we will talk with Joe Blow from the Canadian Diabetes Association, Grande Prairie District, on the growing number of people with diabetes in the city.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1359              The CRTC, of course, demands a certain percentage of vocal content and I am not saying that you have to go with blind faith but there is, I guess, a history with Radio CJVR in ensuring that their announcers continue to reflect their community in their spoken word.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1360              MR. SINGER:  Mr. Langford, could I just ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1361              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Absolutely.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1362              MR. SINGER:  Could I interject here?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1363              I agree.  I understand where you are going with happy talk but on our radio stations, on any given hour, I mean what we are really talking about here is about another four minutes an hour over the broadcast week of meaningful spoken word.  I can give you an example of four minutes as a minimum on our stations of meaningful spoken word.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1364              First of all, we do probably half of that in weather information, again, for the reasons that Remi related to.  We have a very mobile audience in these markets and certainly weather is very important to them.  At times in Grande Prairie I am sure traffic is important to them as well.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1365              But beyond that, these are logged features on our radio stations where we not only do community events and talk about things to get people participating in the community, these are logged and produced features in many cases and often include interviews with the organizers of those features.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1366              We do health and fitness features a number of times a day.  We are in a very agricultural community.  We do a great amount of ag reports and so on.  These are things that are meaningful to our listenership and in Grande Prairie I don't think we would be ‑‑ the list would be very short of things that we could not put into our programming that would be other than happy talk.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1367              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Well, gentlemen, I am going to give you some homework and I am going to give it to you with a little caveat, as we used to say.  This is a competitive process and it is not fair to allow you to change your application, obviously.  So if you come romping back with some homework with whole half‑hour blocks of new programming, I think we are going to have to take that with a grain of salt.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1368              But I would like you in one of the upcoming phases ‑‑


‑‑‑ Ping sound / Bruit de sonnerie

LISTNUM 1 \l 1369              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I don't know, somebody just scored somewhere ‑‑

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1370              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  ‑‑ or an angel just got his wings depending on whether you remember that movie.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1371              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I would like you, in one of the upcoming stages as appropriate, to give us a little more hard and fast detail on the sort of things you just listed, community events, health and fitness, ag reports.  If this is actually part of your modus operandi, if this is the way you run your radio stations, I think we would like to know just a little more about that.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1372              Because essentially what you are saying to me today ‑‑ and I don't mean to be critical ‑‑ but what you are saying could be reduced to this, there is enormous scope out there for local information, and we agree, but I would like to know a little bit more about how you might present that to us and how much time because really you have presented us with only a 50 per cent breakdown of a promised amount of local programming and it is simply not enough to leave it to our imaginations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1373              So we will leave it there now.  We have a long agenda ahead of us today but I for one would very much like to hear more about that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1374              If I could just give you one more caution.  You mentioned on‑location broadcasting.  If there is going to be meaningful spoken word in there, I would like to know more about it.  Simply because you are on location at a Ford dealership, an old person's home, a community hall, a county fair doesn't necessarily mean your morning show or your drive‑home show is going to be any different, it is simply going to be somewhere else.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1375              So if that does give you an opportunity in your other types of broadcasting to present something in the sense of unique local programming, I for one would like to hear about that, other than the fact that you are just coming from a different location.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1376              Those are my questions, Mr. Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1377              Thank you very much, gentlemen

LISTNUM 1 \l 1378              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Langford.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1379              How long will it take you to prepare a document to meet the requirement of Mr. Langford?


LISTNUM 1 \l 1380              MR. SINGER:  We would be able to file that to you by next week.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1381              THE CHAIRPERSON:  By next week.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1382              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Well, that is not going to ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1383              MR. SINGER:  Okay.  Well ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1384              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I would like some ‑‑ personally, to be fair to the other applicants who are here and might want to respond or have some sense, can you do it by Phase III?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1385              MR. SINGER:  I understand.  We can do it.  We will work on it today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1386              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  You don't have to watch the hockey game.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1387              MR. SINGER:  No.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1388              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Come on!

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1389              MR. SINGER:  We know who is going to win.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1390              THE CHAIRPERSON:  So can you file it as soon as it is ready?  We are planning to have Phase III sometime on Wednesday.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1391              So if you can have the document filed with the secretary as soon as you can, say, sometime by tomorrow then so other participants can consult it and the members also.  When we come to Phase III, they may have questions and they will be capable to ask questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1392              MR. SINGER:  We will be happy to do that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1393              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1394              I have a few questions.  My first one has to do with ‑‑ and you already answered if the market could support more than two new stations.  Obviously, I remember that you said that the financial numbers were not healthy regarding Grande Prairie and you said that if it was to be the wisdom of the Commission to grant more than one licence, then you will hold to the licence you have been granted.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1395              If the Commission was to license more than one, what would be the impact on your business plan and can you describe the adjustments you will have to undertake in order to be successful?


LISTNUM 1 \l 1396              MR. FABRO:  I guess, as Mr. Singer pointed out earlier, we believe there is room for one station in the market.  If the CRTC were to grant two licences, we certainly wouldn't turn down the opportunity if we were one of the licensees, and then that would probably be predicated on your knowledge of the market and given that you were to grant two licences, we could probably compete in the market.  We would be able to compete in the market based on what was assumed to be a larger revenue figure than we actually estimated

LISTNUM 1 \l 1397              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Will you need to make some adjustments to your business plan in order to meet the challenge of having another competitor?  If that competitor ‑‑ if the Commission were to grant Newcap and yourself a licence, you are both for the same format, what will happen?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1398              MR. SINGER:  I think if the Commission was to grant two licences and they were identical formats, I would be very surprised, first of all, because of the intent to bring some diverse musical choices to the market.  But because format is not a part of regulation we certainly anticipate that that could happen to us any place at any time.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1399              I think our option faced with head‑to‑head competition, same music format, is that we would have to pursue a different music format and certainly I think there are other choices.  I mean we have offered our best choice.  We would have to do further research and determine what is going to work in the marketplace because no one is going to win splitting a format down the middle.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1400              THE CHAIRPERSON:  And if I remove Newcap as a group that has been granted a licence but if we were to grant a licence to any of the other applicants, which one will have the most negative impact on your business plan, which format, which group?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1401              MR. SINGER:  That is a difficult question to answer.  I could tell you one which would have the least impact would be one that isn't going to be doing a similar format and certainly perhaps a lower power or a specialty format wouldn't have the same impact on a mainstream format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1402              From the point of view of being competitive in the marketplace, as I mentioned at the outset, I don't think there is any level of competition that we can't compete with.  I think we can offer a product that will give us a reasonable share of the market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1403              Given that the market would change substantially from what we see there now, we would have to regroup and say what is our best strategy to compete against now another new radio station.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1404              So I think those are answers that will come after we kind of know the marketplace in terms of what we are up against.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1405              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Now, I want to focus more on the demographic that you gave, the 25‑44.  Say that you are the Program Director of the new station and you are meeting your on‑air staff, what will you tell them?  What is the listener that you are looking for?  Is it a man or a woman mainly?  Obviously, it is going to be both of them but overall it is going to be more male, I think.  It is located more towards male, I would suspect.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1406              MR. SINGER:  I will let Remi start on that and then I will join in.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1407              MR. TARDIF:  Okay.  If you look at the current situation in Grande Prairie you have got a country station and I guess a rock‑leaning hot adult contemporary station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1408              If you look at those two stations on the scope, you have one format on one end and the other format on the other.  Normally, rock is more male‑oriented, country is more female‑oriented, but seeing the largely agriculture sector of the province Grande Prairie sits in, I would say it would be 50‑50 on the country side.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1409              Seeing those two formats on both spectrums, I think that Classic Hits has a prime opportunity to sit right in the middle at a 50‑50 looking at the potential for diversity in the Grande Prairie market.  Seeing CFGP station and CJXX being there, the Classic Hits format would be a nice little fit on a 50‑50 level.  I do believe the research indicates Classic Hits is a 50‑50 split in most cases and that would cater to a nice section of the demographic

LISTNUM 1 \l 1410              THE CHAIRPERSON:  And what would be the median age of that listener?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1411              MR. SINGER:  We anticipate in the 30‑33 age group would be a median age

LISTNUM 1 \l 1412              THE CHAIRPERSON:  So thirty‑one and a half?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1413              MR. SINGER:  Mm‑hmm.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1414              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1415              Legal counsel, any questions?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1416              MS MURPHY:  Just to confirm the date at which you will submit the breakdown of the spoken word.  By the end of the day tomorrow, would that be ‑‑ is the agreed date?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1417              MR. SINGER:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1418              MS MURPHY:  Thank you very much.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1419              Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1420              MR. FABRO:  Mr. Chairman, can I just clarify something or add to our comments with regards to the market size?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1421              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1422              MR. FABRO:  We can give you a little bit of a breakdown of how we determined the market size and why we think there is opportunity for one station.  Unfortunately, we don't know, we can only estimate what the two operators are taking out of the market now.  So it is difficult for us to know for sure the room in the market and certainly we trust the CRTC to decide that because you have some "inside" information.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1423              But let Mr. Gemmell please outline to you what our rough‑cut calculations are for the market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1424              MR. GEMMELL:  When we determine the advertising dollars that are available, we use basic formulas for all the markets we have been investigating.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1425              Total retail sales for Grande Prairie for 2006 are estimated to be $1.08 billion.  Four per cent of that determines the total advertising pool for all forms of advertising and then we take between 10 and 14 per cent to create the radio ad pool.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1426              So in the case of Grande Prairie, again, the Financial Post total retail sales is estimated to be $1.08 billion.  That leaves a 4 per cent advertising pool of $43.2 million and we estimate that the radio pool for Grande Prairie is probably in the 12 per cent ‑‑ take the middle point ‑‑ or about $5.2 million.  I think we are low based on what we have seen in some of the applications as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1427              We feel the minimum amount that the Pattison Group and the O.K. Group combined are taking is at least $3.5 million, which still leave a million and a half dollars on the table potentially for one or even two more new operators.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1428              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1429              Mr. Singer or Mr. Fabro, I am giving you now two minutes to tell us why the Commission should grant you a licence to serve Grande Prairie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1430              MR. FABRO:  Maybe I will ‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1431              THE CHAIRPERSON:  That is going to be your conclusion remarks.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1432              MR. FABRO:  Pardon me

LISTNUM 1 \l 1433              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Those will be your concluding remarks.  There will be no further questions.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1434              MR. FABRO:  Okay.  Perhaps I will just start and let Mr. Singer finish.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1435              As you know from when we started in our dissertation here today, my family has all Albertans, all born in Alberta other than my father who immigrated from Italy.  We have a very strong work ethic.  We believe in the things we do.  We have a very good reputation in all the businesses we run.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1436              We are not large market broadcasters but we do believe that our small market brand of radio is the radio that is needed in Grande Prairie.  We can deliver something that large market people don't do.  We deliver local fabric of the community type radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1437              We are committed to our listeners in Saskatchewan and we have put a lot of improvements into our operations there, almost $3 million since we invested in that operation in 1991.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1438              We have great long‑term staff with us that can grow our operations and we rely on those staff to hire further staff to create a small broadcast organization committed to the type of broadcasting we do in Saskatoon.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1439              Buying versus building, it is a lot cheaper.  Anybody that is in business knows that when you buy a business you have to pay certain multiples of cash flow.  It is a lot cheaper for us and for small broadcasters to build and that is the way we have to go.  We don't have deep pockets.  We are not a public company.  The big broadcasters that come from the outside that are public or have huge shareholders, they can buy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1440              I think that in these small market opportunities where we play the best, we would like to build and we would like the new licence in Grande Prairie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1441              MR. SINGER:  Mr. Commissioner, I would like to just close by saying thank you for the time here today and the opportunity, especially under these unusual circumstances.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1442              Just let me say that I believe that Grande Prairie needs the kind of radio station we could bring to that market and as importantly, I think Canadian broadcasting needs players like Radio CJVR.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1443              I certainly sometimes question where our business is going.  It is all I have done all my life and I see the big getting bigger and I wonder what the future of our business is if new players such as Radio CJVR are not allowed opportunities to grow their critical mass.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1444              So I ask you to consider that and I thank you again for your time


LISTNUM 1 \l 1445              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.  Thank you, Mr. Fabro, Mr. Singer, Mr. Gemmell and Mr. Tardif.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1446              We will take a 15‑minute break.  We will get back at 20 past 11:00.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1107 / Suspension à 1107

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1126 / Reprise à 1126

LISTNUM 1 \l 1447              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Madam Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1448              THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1449              We will now proceed with Item 2 on the agenda, which is an application by Allan Hunsperger, on behalf of a corporation to be incorporated for a licence to operate an English‑language FM commercial specialty radio programming undertaking in Grande Prairie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1450              The new station would operate on frequency 96.3 MHz (channel 242C1) with an effective radiated power of 100,000 watts (non‑directional antenna/antenna height of 256.6 metres).

LISTNUM 1 \l 1451              Appearing for the applicant is Mr. Allan Hunsperger, who will introduce his colleagues.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1452              You will have 20 minutes for your presentation.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1453              Mr. Hunsperger.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

LISTNUM 1 \l 1454              MR. HUNSPERGER:  Mr. Chairman, Commissioners, Members of the CRTC staff, thank you for allowing us the privilege of coming before you today to share with you why we would like to have an FM Specialty radio licence for the City of Grande Prairie, Alberta.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1455              With me today are, to my far right, Bev Gillespie, our Business Manager; and next to her is Jamie Moffat, our Edmonton Sales Manager.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1456              To my left is Malcolm Hunt, our Network Program Director, and next to him is Hollie Taylor, one of our on air staff members.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1457              Seated behind Malcolm is Dionne Smith, Shai Awards representative, and next to Dionne is Chris Ferneyhough, Ipsos Reid representative.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1458              Attached to the end of our presentation document is a seating chart for ease of identifying members of our panel.  Also attached is a typical program schedule and a chart illustrating our plans for our extended news coverage.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1459              As you know, we have been in the radio business since April 3, 1994, when we turned the power back on at AM 930 CJCA here in Edmonton.  Its previous owner had shut down the station.  Since then you have granted us additional licences for FM stations in Edmonton, 105.9 CJRY, and in Calgary, 88.9 CJSI.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1460              When we first started out we quickly discovered that there was a very loyal audience for our niche Gospel format.  We are very thankful that we are here today, not only to tell you that financially the business is seeing light at the end of the tunnel but also that we are committed to establishing Gospel music stations in as many cities as possible right across this great country.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1461              This is why we are here applying for licences to serve Grande Prairie and Fort McMurray.  We have also filed applications in response to the Commission's recent calls for Regina and Saskatoon.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1462              In July 2004 Mr. Peter Teichroeb of Grande Prairie and a group of local businessmen were researching the possibility of bringing contemporary Gospel music radio to their city.  They were looking at everything from low power applications to repeaters.  Touch Canada, Mr. Teichroeb and the local businessmen got together and collectively decided to begin to work on giving Grande Prairie Gospel music fans a 24/7 full power FM Gospel music radio station.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1463              We are proposing Grande Prairie Radio Ltd., a shareholders partnership of Mr. Peter Teichroeb and Touch Canada Broadcasting, Inc.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1464              Peter is a very successful businessman in Grande Prairie.  He owns Happy Trails RV, which is the number one Jayco dealer in Canada.  We are extremely pleased to have such a prominent Grande Prairie resident providing us with an element of local ownership in this venture.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1465              I would now like to call on Jamie Moffat to share with you a little about our marketing plan for Grande Prairie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1466              MR. MOFFAT:  Thank you, Allan.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1467              We have conducted a half dozen sessions with business people in the past two years in Grande Prairie and as a result of that developed our marketing plan.  Most of those that have been in these pre‑planning sessions are companies that are looking forward to having another media outlet in the City of Grande Prairie to market their goods and services.  We are confident of our ability to sell advertising in the Grande Prairie market.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1468              To be part of our start‑up, Grande Prairie retailers have been presented with a package of advertising featuring four ads per day, seven days per week, for a year.  These packages have been met with very favourable response.  This plan will give them something that is affordable, yet has enough frequency to bring results.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1469              All of the people that have been part of the planning to bring a Contemporary Gospel music station to the city are some of the most successful businessmen and women in the area.  So we are very excited about this and can hardly wait to have the opportunity to work with these people.  We have never had so many companies involved at a start‑up before, and Mr. Teichroeb is an example of those who want to help us make this station a business and Contemporary Gospel music listening success.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1470              Many residents of Grande Prairie have been looking forward to this day for some time.  To prove this point, we commissioned Ipsos Reid to do a marketing survey for Grande Prairie and Chris Ferneyhough from Ipsos Reid is here today to share with us the process of this survey and the result.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1471              However, before I ask Chris to give us the final results of the survey, I need to share that we commissioned two separate surveys for the Grande Prairie marketplace.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1472              With the first survey, we combined random calling with pre‑selected individuals.  In case of a possible skew, we felt it prudent to commission the second survey which was completely random.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1473              Ironically, the second survey results were even more in favour of Contemporary Gospel music radio than the first.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1474              MR. FERNEYHOUGH:  Ipsos Reid conducted 300 telephone interviews with a random sample of adults 18 or older residing in Grande Prairie.  The interviews were conducted between March 10th and March 16th 2006.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1475              The margin of error on a sample size of 300 is plus/minus 5.7 percent, 19 times out of 20.  What this means is that if 50 percent of respondents said "yes" to a question, we could expect this percentage to fall between 44 percent and 56 percent 19 times if we repeated the study 20 times.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1476              The research found that:

LISTNUM 1 \l 1477              1.  Currently, two out of every five Grande Prairie adults listen to Christian music, but only 7 percent of those are very satisfied with the amount of Christian music on the radio, indicating that the vast majority of Grande Prairie residents who listen to this type of music want more of it to be played on the radio.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1478              2.  As such, 37 percent of respondents said that they would listen to a contemporary Christian music radio station either regularly or occasionally if it was available to them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1479              3.  Among those who would listen to this station, 24 percent said that they would listen to the radio more often if this station became available to them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1480              4.  Those who would listen to the Contemporary Gospel station indicate they would listen for an average of 67 minutes per day.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1481              As part of this study, we also asked for interest in a Southern Gospel music radio station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1482              1.  Twenty percent of respondents said that they would listen to a Southern Gospel music radio station either regularly or occasionally if it was available to them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1483              2.  Among those who would listen to this station, 12 percent said that they would listen to the radio more often if this station became available to them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1484              3.  Those who would listen to the Southern Gospel station indicate they would listen for an average of 54 minutes per day.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1485              In summary, interest in both types of music formats is strong among Grande Prairie residents, but more interest was expressed for the contemporary Christian music radio station.  A significant proportion of adults indicate they would listen to this station, most likely because only a small minority of adults who listen to Christian music say they are very satisfied with the amount of this type of music available to them on the radio today, indicating there is currently a void in the market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1486              MR. HUNSPERGER:  Thank you, Chris.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1487              I would now like to ask our Network Program Director, Malcolm Hunt, to give you a brief description of our spoken word programming, programming staff responsibilities and, most importantly, our plans to address the issue of balance.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1488              MR. HUNT:  Thank you, Allan, and good morning, Commissioners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1489              I have been involved in Gospel music programming since Touch Canada Broadcasting began back in April of 1994.  I have witnessed the growth of this format first‑hand and I have had the privilege of providing a product that fulfils the needs of our listeners and strengthens the Canadian Gospel music industry.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1490              I would like to give you a brief description of what 96.3 Shine FM Grande Prairie will sound like.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1491              In a nutshell, the programming approach will be very similar to our current Calgary operation.  Our core music will be a mix of Adult Contemporary and CHR styles of Gospel music.  We will provide blocks of weekend programming targeting listeners who enjoy Rock and Hip Hop as well as Southern Gospel.  This programming will be a combination of syndicated and locally produced shows.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1492              We will provide in year one an average weekly total of 31.4 hours of spoken word programming.  This will include 6.6 hours of news, weather and sports, 8.3 hours of local reflection and announcer content, 1.5 hours of comedy and human interest features and 15 hours of brokered programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1493              In our application we had indicated a total of 29.6 hours of spoken word programming, but that did not include the 1.5 hours of comedy and human interest features.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1494              Shine FM will feature live morning and afternoon shows produced in our Grande Prairie studios.  The midday, evening and weekend air shifts initially will be voice tracked using current Touch Canada staff.  We will hire one morning drive announcer who will also serve as the assistant program director, one afternoon announcer who will also assist with production and one part‑time morning co‑host who will also have duties as our local news reporter.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1495              Touch Canada Broadcasting is also planning expansion in our commitments to news.  Attached to our opening remarks is an outline of our proposed news network.  Albeit simple in structure, the plan can only come to fruition with the addition of more licences.  We will provide a full slate of news programming using our own staff in Grande Prairie, supplemented by our Edmonton centre and the services of "Radionews", a Canadian News Service that provides fully produced national and international newscasts.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1496              Touch Canada prides itself on our community involvement, and I will ask Bev Gillespie to comment on this further.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1497              MS GILLESPIE:  Thank you, Malcolm.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1498              The successful fundraising efforts of Touch Canada Broadcasting have resulted in over $3.3 million raised for the local community and charities since we have been licensed.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1499              We teamed up with Kids Kottage 12 years ago, even before they became an association.  Kids Kottage is open 24/7 as a place where parents without a support system can take their children for up to 72 hours while they deal with the pressures they are facing.  It is an organization that helps prevent child abuse and neglect.  It currently operates at capacity and through the fundraising efforts of Touch Canada Broadcasting, the everyday expenses are covered to keep their doors open to our community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1500              Touch Canada also partners with The Mustard Seed, which provides assistance to those residing in the inner‑city, offering food, clothing and shelter.  Year‑to‑date $900,000 has been raised for both Edmonton and Calgary, combined, with the help of local businesses and listeners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1501              Another partnering charity, The Dream Centre, provides a safe housing environment while developing skill sets to residents supporting their development towards a self‑sufficient lifestyle.  $500,000 has been raised for The Dream Centre since its collaboration with Touch Canada Broadcasting.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1502              We primarily use a radio‑thon format to raise support for partnering charities, but we also execute other creative fundraising activities throughout the year with the most recent being an auction of hockey playoff tickets.  We are very proud of Touch Canada's fundraising efforts to date and hope to be even more supportive with the addition of new licences.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1503              MR. HUNT:  In regards to Canadian content, we continue to exceed our licence requirement of 10 percent on our existing stations.  For example, last week Shine FM in Edmonton aired 16.9 percent while our Calgary FM achieved 16.3 percent.  We will continue to exceed the required level in Grande Prairie and all future licences.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1504              We recognize the importance of Canadian Talent Development.  We believe the stronger the Canadian Gospel music industry becomes, the better sounding our radio stations will be.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1505              We propose a commitment of $112,000 over the licence term.  That money will go entirely to "The Shai Gospel Music Awards", which are the awards given by "Vibe Gospel Music".  Dionne Smith, the executive director of the organization, is here today and I would like her to share a little about how they assist aspiring Canadian Gospel music artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1506              MS SMITH:  Thank you, Malcolm.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1507              The Shai Awards are Canada's only awards dedicated to Gospel music.  "People's Choice Gospel Music Awards" for the last five years has been held in various locations across the country, laying the foundation for a now growing Gospel music industry here in Canada.  Gospel artists across Canada are depending on Shai as we have filled a very important role providing support, advocacy, education, promotion and recognition of the Gospel music artists and their industry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1508              Shai Gospel music with our awards, seminars and events offers a unique platform for the Gospel music industry, the listeners and the artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1509              These awards are open to all Gospel artists throughout Canada and each year gather more than 20,000 votes from Gospel music fans across the country via online voting.  The public votes for Canada's best Gospel artist in 23 categories including Contemporary Pop, Rock, Rap/Hip‑Hop, Aboriginal, Francophone and Instrumental, just to name a few.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1510              There is a need for the Shai Awards to continue to be a vital component of the music industry here in Canada and also to have radio stations continue to support the effort of Canadian Gospel artists.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1511              As a result of exposure through the Shai Awards, artists like Jake, Greg Sczebel, Toronto Mass Choir and Amanda Falk have gone on to win Juno Awards, Canada's highest music award and honour.  All these artists currently are aired on Touch Canada Broadcasting's radio stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1512              Since the inception of the Shai Awards, Touch Canada has supported our endeavours each year.  The addition of further radio stations across Canada will only provide growing support and inspiration to our artists, the music fans and the Gospel music industry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1513              MR. HUNT:  At the Calgary hearing the Commission asked us about the provision of balance in our programming, given the amount of spoken word in our schedule.  We are not sure if we were as clear in our response as we should have been and would like to take this opportunity to clarify our position.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1514              We recognize the Broadcasting Act requirement for opportunity for expression of differing points of view on matters of public concern and the Commission's expression of that concern in the Religious Broadcasting Policy.  As we have mentioned before, we do not believe that we are a religious station as defined in the policy but rather that we are a Gospel music station that carries some brokered programs that do contain religious content, just as some country music, ethnic and talk stations.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1515              When it comes to adding programming to our lineup, we take special care on the quality, presentation and content of the programs.  We have a daily cue sheet on each show and we know in advance the material that is going to be covered before it goes to air.  I would also like to point out in our twelve years of broadcasting the Commission has never received a single complaint about balance or any other matter.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1516              We take this requirement seriously.  Our understanding of the policy is that the Commission does not object to broadcasters taking positions on controversial matters as long as there is an opportunity for listeners to hear and contribute other points of view.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1517              To ensure this happens in Grande Prairie, we will set up a dedicated phone line and voice mail that will record the opinions and views of our listeners.  We will review this listener input and air the comments.  If necessary, we will seek out other points of view to ensure that we meet this requirement.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1518              We fully understand, as the licensee, that we are responsible for all the programming that is broadcast over our airwaves, including brokered programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1519              MR. HUNSPERGER:  Thank you once again for allowing us this opportunity to apply for a Gospel music FM radio station for Grande Prairie, Alberta.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1520              As you have heard, we believe Grande Prairie is a growing community that can handle more radio stations in its market.  In fact, we believe the economy could support one or even two new conventional stations, along with Touch Canada Broadcasting's niche Gospel format.  This is particularly true for our format since we are targeting new advertisers different from those of existing or future conventional format stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1521              We believe that our niche application is in keeping with the spirit of the Broadcasting Act that stipulates the system should be diverse, balanced and representative of all Canadians.  While our Gospel format may not attract a large audience, this audience has the right to be served.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1522              We are ready to answer any questions you may have.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1523              Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1524              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Hunsperger.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1525              I will start my questions by going through your oral presentation.  First I will start with the paragraph that Mr. Hunt read on page 14 and following.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1526              First, I will make a statement by saying that the Calgary hearing is a closed hearing.  I know that you are not the only applicant here that also appeared at the Calgary hearings.  Obviously, there is no consideration of trying, and I will expect all the applicants here not to try, to influence the Commission regarding the Calgary hearing.  That process is closed and there is no way we want to hear more about it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1527              Following on what Mr. Hunt was saying by saying that you never had any complaint since 1991 regarding balance in the programming, could I read into it that you have no problem accepting a condition of licence regarding relative programming?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1528              MR. HUNSPERGER:  That's true.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1529              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Do you agree with me that while the call for comments and the agenda are referring to this application to be by Alan Hunsperger on behalf of a company to be incorporated, the reality is that the applicant is Grande Prairie Limited, an undertaking to be jointly owned by Touch Canada Broadcasting and by Mr. Peter Teichroeb, originally of Grande Prairie, and that that corporation at this stage is not yet really incorporated?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1530              MR. HUNSPERGER:  That's true.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1531              THE CHAIRPERSON:  And there is no representative of either Mr. Teichroeb or any representative of his group, if he represents a group, that is at the table today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1532              MR. HUNSPERGER:  That's true.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1533              THE CHAIRPERSON:  So could I read that Mr. Teichroeb is an investor into the project but not a player in the project?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1534              MR. HUNSPERGER:  Yes.  He is a shareholder/partner in the project, along with Touch Canada Broadcasting Inc.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1535              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Could you commit to file with the Commission the corporation's statute and the bylaws, as well as the shareholders' agreement, before entering into operation if the Commission grants you a licence?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1536              MR. HUNSPERGER:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1537              THE CHAIRPERSON:  I am referring to your Memorandum of Agreement, Section D.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1538              Am I right to understand that whatever is the situation, the control of the station will be in the hands of Touch Canada?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1539              MR. HUNSPERGER:  Yes.  Touch Canada appoints the Chairman of the board, which would have a vote in the aspect of there would be a tie with the shareholders.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1540              THE CHAIRPERSON:  So that means at all times Touch Canada is the ultimate deciding body in Grande Prairie Radio Ltd.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1541              MR. HUNSPERGER:  Yes, sir.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1542              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Is the current Memorandum of Agreement the only document that is binding Touch Canada and Mr. Teichroeb or are there other documents?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1543              MR. HUNSPERGER:  That's the only one at this time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1544              THE CHAIRPERSON:  At this time there have been no amendments to that document.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1545              MR. HUNSPERGER:  No, sir.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1546              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much for that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1547              We will now move to programming matters.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1548              As part of your March 31, 2006 application deficiency response, you submitted two pages titled "Programming Map for Fort McMurray" that outlines some weekday and weekend programming content.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1549              Was this material appended to your Grande Prairie deficiency response in error, or is it an accurate reflection of some of the programming content that will be broadcast on your proposed Grande Prairie station?


LISTNUM 1 \l 1550              MR. HUNT:  It obviously was our error that we put Fort McMurray on there.  Very similar to what we are doing in Grande Prairie will be in Fort McMurray.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1551              THE CHAIRPERSON:  So the map should have read Grande Prairie?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1552              MR. HUNT:  It should have, yes.  Our apologies.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1553              THE CHAIRPERSON:  That's no problem.  I am here to clarify.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1554              In your supplementary brief you state that the proposed specialty FM Gospel music will serve an adult audience.  You propose your station's core audience was identified as the 25‑44 adult with a more or less equal appeal to both female and male.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1555              In reviewing your programming map information, I see that you will also offer seven hours of syndicated youth‑oriented Christian music programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1556              Could you elaborate on why you are including youth‑oriented music programming as part of your adult‑oriented Gospel music format?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1557              Are there plans to offer more youth‑oriented music programming beyond the seven hours indicated in your programming map?


LISTNUM 1 \l 1558              MR. HUNT:  Basically it's our experience in having run stations in Calgary and Edmonton ‑‑ and I personally have been involved in stations in Winnipeg as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1559              Obviously targeting our main core of music is going to be targeted to adults, but the seven hours is something that we have developed over time, that we recognize the need of the youth in different communities.  Grande Prairie will be no different from that, we believe.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1560              I have had the experience of seeing the type of youth concerts that have gone on in Grande Prairie, and there is a large segment of the youth there that are very active in the community and we want to be able to serve them with music that is more targeted to them, although it is just a small portion on the weekend.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1561              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Based on your experience in Edmonton and in Calgary ‑‑ sorry, I was told I have to speak closer to the microphone, otherwise you will all need some headsets.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1562              What has been your experience?  Are you capable of attracting the young audience?


LISTNUM 1 \l 1563              Obviously it is an issue for all broadcasters in North America.  The youth audience is leaving radio to listen to other means.  I'm not saying they are not listening to music but they have found other means to listen to music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1564              You said that you already have the experience of youth programming in both Edmonton and Calgary.  What are the results?  Are you attracting the youth?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1565              MR. HUNT:  I don't have anything to give you on paper today.  But I can tell you, having talked with all of the hosts and the producers of those programs that are on our programming map, they all get lots of phone calls from Alberta, and actually all parts of Canada that they are broadcasting on and I think we are targeting.  We tell them when to listen and they do listen.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1566              Our experience is that we are targeting the youth in those specific times.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1567              THE CHAIRPERSON:  They are there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1568              MR. HUNSPERGER:  Mr. Chairman, if I could also add, we also have requests from parents who are our target audience who want some specialty programs for their young people to listen to the station as well so that it just doesn't become a "mom" station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1569              THE CHAIRPERSON:  I see.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1570              You have stated in your proposal Gospel format will appeal to the 25‑44 age group, equally split between female and male listeners.  I suspect, also, that the format may have some appeal to the 45‑plus adult listener as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1571              Does the 25‑44 age group represent the core target demo that you will cater to with your service; and if so, why have you opted to focus programming on this adult age group rather than say a broader age group?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1572              MR. HUNT:  Once again, it is our experience in the markets that we are currently in.  We fully believe that the majority of people that will listen to our radio station will be within that target demographic.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1573              As mentioned with the youth programming, we believe that we need to cater somewhat to them in certain areas of our programming and also to the upper end of our demo through some of the southern gospel programs that we are going to be airing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1574              We do this in Calgary on our current station as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1575              THE CHAIRPERSON:  As you heard me before when CJVR appeared, I was trying to focus more directly to the median age of your listeners.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1576              You are still maintaining it is going to be a 50:50 split male‑female, but what will be the median age of your listener?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1577              MR. HUNT:  I would say 33 to 35.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1578              And I will point out, too, that in our experience it does skew slightly higher female.  That just seems to be the experience that we have had.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1579              To give you an exact amount, it sort of hovers around a 60:40 split, I would say, in terms of male and female.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1580              THE CHAIRPERSON:  You have conducted two surveys.  Are they complementary or is the second replacing the first one?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1581              MR. HUNSPERGER:  They are complementary.  As Jamie was saying, the second survey we wanted to commission just to make sure that we had a fair random survey of the market and it came out even better than our first, which we were more than delighted with.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1582              So they are basically complementary.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1583              The only thing that we did add the second time around, is we did ask the question:  If we started a Southern Gospel music station, what was the interest there?  We also tested the market just to make sure that we were correct that it was a Contemporary Gospel format; that that is the greatest need.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1584              We also feel that the Southern Gospel is the second need.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1585              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Hunt referred in an earlier response that your experience is showing that the format is skewing more female than male and the two surveys are surely confirming that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1586              I refer to page 2 of the first survey and page 11 of the second one, that are clearly identifying female as the main target.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1587              So are you changing for the sake of this appearance ‑‑ I am trying to do a map of what all the applicants will look like.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1588              So you will be 34 and you will be more ‑‑ well, if you maintain that you are going to be split 50:50, I will take your word, but the Ipsos Reid survey seems to indicate that it will be more likely skewed toward female.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1589              So will you agree in doing our map we put you more for a female format?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1590              MR. HUNSPERGER:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1591              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Of the ten competitive Grande Prairie applications, I see that yours is the only application for a specialty FM Gospel music format.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1592              The other nine competitive Grande Prairie stations are proposing conventional FM music formats, including Classic Hits, Classic Rock and Soft AC.  Further, I note that your application is technically mutually exclusive with a Classic Hits format filed by 1097282 Alberta Ltd. to use a frequency of 96.3 megahertz.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1593              The nine other Grande Prairie applicants have characterized Grande Prairie adult listeners as being underserved by the incumbent stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1594              Do you also consider that Grande Prairie adult listeners are underserved in the market?  And if so, could you elaborate as to why you feel they are underserved.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1595              MR. HUNSPERGER:  Well, we do feel that they are underserved just because of the request that we had by the residents of the community who were already in the process of trying to get some kind of a Gospel music format radio station up in the Grande Prairie market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1596              They could not hear it anywhere else, and when we came along we were able to help put their dreams to paper and help them that we can add this to the Grande Prairie market.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1597              And yes, we do believe that the Grande Prairie market is underserved for the population, particularly the young married families that dominate that market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1598              THE CHAIRPERSON:  As a follow‑up question, could you explain to us why you feel that a proposed specialty FM Gospel music format represents the best choice to provide musical and programming diversity in Grande Prairie?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1599              MR. HUNSPERGER:  Because no other station is playing our music.  So when we go up there, we are going to be adding a whole total new artist and music genre that is not in existence in Grande Prairie today, nor would be in existence with any of the other nine applicants that are applying for Grande Prairie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1600              THE CHAIRPERSON:  You choose to apply for a Contemporary Gospel music format and you also refer, both in your supplementary brief and in your oral presentation, to Southern Gospel music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1601              Would you be mainly Contemporary Gospel music or will you also have Southern Gospel music on your station?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1602              MR. HUNT:  It will be all Contemporary except for the blocks of programming that we have proposed on the weekends.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1603              THE CHAIRPERSON:  That would be Southern Gospel music?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1604              MR. HUNT:  We will have two sections on the weekend that will be Southern Gospel, and the rest of it will be Contemporary and CHR.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1605              THE CHAIRPERSON:  For the record, could you explain the differences between the two ‑‑ other than say that one is for FM and the other one is for AM.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1606              MR. HUNT:  I guess you could classify the Contemporary and CHR style of music no different from any other Contemporary and CHR stations that you would have before you today.  The only difference, obviously, is that they fall under the Gospel category.  The lyrics are different; the artists are different, completely different.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1607              Now in comparison from Contemporary to Southern Gospel, I would say Southern Gospel would be closer to an older style quartet‑type of music, more closer to Country, older country, to give an explanation as to how the two differ.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1608              THE CHAIRPERSON:  I know that Southern Gospel music will also have choirs.  Will the choirs qualify more for southern?


LISTNUM 1 \l 1609              MR. HUNSPERGER:  No.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1610              THE CHAIRPERSON:  I'm a Montrealer.  The only Gospel music I hear is my choir.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1611              MR. HUNSPERGER:  Well, Southern Gospel is usually quartet or trio.  Once in a while it's a single vocalist.  But most of the time it is four, five people singing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1612              THE CHAIRPERSON:  And the choirs, where are they?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1613              MR. HUNSPERGER:  We don't have any choirs, although we do play ‑‑ like the Toronto Mass Choir does get airplay on our Sunday mornings where we do our praise and worship section.  That, of course, is more of a church oriented type of music.  But that is only Sunday mornings.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1614              THE CHAIRPERSON:  We will speak about local spoken word and local education.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1615              I note that in your oral presentation you mention that while your supplementary brief indicated 29/26 hours of spoken word, that did not include 1.5 of comedy and human interest.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1616              Is that something that you are adding this morning or was it part of your schedule but you didn't do the mathematics?


LISTNUM 1 \l 1617              MR. HUNSPERGER:  It's a part of it.  We just missed it when we filed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1618              THE CHAIRPERSON:  You just missed it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1619              Based upon the programming map that you filed ‑‑ so it was on your March 31, 2006 programming map.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1620              You are saying that you are going to have 6.3 hours per week of scripted local news and related surveillance; 15 hours of brokered spoken word, which I assume to be religious spoken word programming; and 8.3 hours of non‑scripted announcer to which I have to add 1.5 of comedy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1621              Could you confirm that those 31.1 hours of spoken word are the numbers that we have to consider for this hearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1622              MR. HUNSPERGER:  Yes.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 1623              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Apparently I am the cause of the feedback.  It is not equipped to do radio.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1624              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Pardon me if I have to put my hand over my ears, but I have some problems to hear your reply.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1625              Did you reply to the question I asked you while they came and told me that I was the cause of the feedback?

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1626              MR. HUNSPERGER:  Mr. Chairman, for example, where Mr. Hunt said on the oral that this would include 6.6 hours of news, weather and sports, in our brief we originally said 6.3.  That was a miscalculation because on the map that we had given you, if you actually add up those hours and minutes, it comes to 6.6.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1627              So that is where we have the 31.4 hours of spoken word programming instead of the 31.1.  That is what we are talking about.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1628              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Fine.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1629              Based on the information that you provided in your programming charts, you indicated that the Sunday's "Power of Praise" music program will be produced by TCB, which I assume is Touch Canada Broadcasting.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1630              You have designated this program as being a locally produced program on your program chart.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1631              Will this program be produced out of your Grande Prairie studio?


LISTNUM 1 \l 1632              MR. HUNT:  Currently it is being produced in Edmonton for both our Edmonton and Calgary stations.  So we will basically add it to our programming line‑up.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1633              THE CHAIRPERSON:  And it will remain being produced in Edmonton.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1634              MR. HUNT:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1635              THE CHAIRPERSON:  So it will not be local programming, but it will be more or less regional programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1636              The reason why I am asking the question is that obviously if it is produced out of Edmonton, the Commission will have to reduce that period of time from the local origination.  That doesn't mean that it is not spoken word.  That means that it is not a local program.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1637              Will any of your brokered religious spoken word ‑‑

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 1638              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Will any of your brokered religious spoken word programming qualify as local programming under the Commission's current local programming definition, or is it all coming from various sources but not Grande Prairie productions?


LISTNUM 1 \l 1639              MR. HUNSPERGER:  So far when we talk about local, we are talking about what is produced by Touch Canada Broadcasting here in Edmonton.  But I can tell you that we have already had several breakfasts and meetings in the Grande Prairie area, and we always try to encourage local people to step forward and get involved in some locally produced programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1640              So that encouragement will continue to be so.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1641              THE CHAIRPERSON:  And will they be produced at your station and other Grande Prairie facilities?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1642              MR. HUNSPERGER:  It will be produced in our facility in Grande Prairie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1643              THE CHAIRPERSON:  And will they be available for your other existing radio stations?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1644              MR. HUNSPERGER:  Absolutely.  That is what we try to encourage.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1645              For example, some of the local programming here in Edmonton, they are so excited about what is happening here in Edmonton that they have come to us and said we want to now be on every one of your stations wherever you get a station licence in the country.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1646              We would hope that the same thing would happen.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1647              The biggest challenge that we have had since 1994 is getting Canadians encouraged that they can use now radio and not leave it up to the Americans.  So we have tried very hard to encourage that.  Sometimes we have succeeded and other times we have failed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1648              For the most part, we continue to put out that encouragement to local people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1649              THE CHAIRPERSON:  In your revenue projections, more than 50 percent of year one revenues are generated by brokerage and other revenues.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1650              How did you arrive at this level of revenue?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1651              MR. MOFFAT:  Brokered spoken word programming, because we have a history of relationships with providers, we anticipate that adding brokered spoken word programming to a new station in Grande Prairie is much like ‑‑ we won't be starting from scratch.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1652              With the local advertising revenue, we are starting a brand new radio station and we will be starting new relationships.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1653              However, that being said, we have already begun establishing those relationships with our local partnership in Mr. Teichroeb.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1654              THE CHAIRPERSON:  As you said in your oral presentation, you have presented packages to some businessmen and those packages were attractive to them.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1655              But that specifically will be advertising revenues.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1656              MR. MOFFAT:  That is correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1657              THE CHAIRPERSON:  If I am talking about brokerage revenues, those are for the airtime that is bought by various groups and those groups are religious‑driven organizations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1658              MR. HUNSPERGER:  That's true.  And like Jamie has said, we have ongoing relationships with those people.  They have tried to get some of their programming in the Grande Prairie market and have been turned down, so they are very excited at the possibility of a licence to us; that they could then get their programming in Grande Prairie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1659              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Are they ready to pay premium to be in Grande Prairie?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1660              MR. HUNSPERGER:  Pardon me?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1661              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Are they ready to pay a premium to be in Grande Prairie?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1662              MR. HUNSPERGER:  We have already talked prices that they agree with.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1663              THE CHAIRPERSON:  You also indicated in your March 31 deficiency reply that programming staff at Grande Prairie will consist of three fulltime and one part‑time person.  You go on to say that synergies and staffing will arise in the remaining departments operating out of the head office location, as well as the centralized programming staff consisting of production, creative writing and network programming manager.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1664              Would you elaborate on the staffing synergies in the area of programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1665              What roles and responsibility will the centralized programming staff, creative writing and network programming manager have in creating content for your Grande Prairie station?  What type of content might this be and will you consider any of this content to qualify as local programming?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1666              MR. HUNT:  The synergies that we will have with our programming staff, a lot of it will be obviously the production and the writing, as you pointed out.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1667              The reason for centralizing is obviously that the cost of having those people in multiple markets is too expensive for us to do that.  As a niche broadcaster we have to be very careful about our costs.  It is easier for us to synergize those particular areas in order to maintain a proper bottom line.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1668              We will also use our current staff for voice tracking.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1669              Although this stuff is being produced in Edmonton, it is being inputted into the computers, into our software, in Grande Prairie to be broadcast there.  It is not originating ‑‑ if I understand the question correctly, it is not originating in Edmonton.  It all originates from ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1670              THE CHAIRPERSON:  It is produced in Edmonton but it is only aired in Grande Prairie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1671              MR. HUNT:  Correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1672              THE CHAIRPERSON:  You are considering that material to be local Grande Prairie programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1673              MR. HUNT:  Correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1674              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Are you ‑‑

‑‑‑ Background noise / Bruit de fond

LISTNUM 1 \l 1675              MR. HUNSPERGER:  What seems to happen, Mr. Chairman, is when we have our microphones on and we turn them off, we get that hum.  So I think it's us, not you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1676              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  It's Commissioner Williams practising for tonight's game.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1677              MR. HUNSPERGER:  I'll leave our microphones on.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1678              THE CHAIRPERSON:  I think that's better.  We will see.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1679              In your supplementary brief you stated that 80 percent of the total weekly programming, or around 100 hours, will be locally produced.  Obviously you just spoke about voice tracking and I suspect part of the answer will be that a good part of the material is voice tracked.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1680              Anyhow, I am going with my curiosity.  How are three staff and one part‑time capable of producing 100 hours a week of locally produced programming, which includes 6.6 hours of news per week and 8.3 hours of announcer ‑‑ how could you make up with only three fulltime employees and one part‑time?

‑‑‑ Background noise / Bruit de fond

LISTNUM 1 \l 1681              MR. HUNT:  Perhaps this is just a misunderstanding from our part.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1682              When we consider of what we consider to be local in terms of the voice tracking, when we voice track, regardless of where the person actually physically talks into the microphone, it is specific to that radio station.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1683              So we consider that programming to be local programming, even though the person might not be necessarily in that particular studio.  They are completely devoting their content to that radio station, talking about local events, talking about the sports teams, and whatnot.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1684              I just wanted to make sure that I was completely clear that that is what we were considering to be local programming, even in terms of voice tracking.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1685              It perhaps down the road might be Grande Prairie people doing it, but initially it will be our Edmonton staff.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1686              THE CHAIRPERSON:  To start with, on day one will you have staff in Grande Prairie?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1687              MR. HUNT:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1688              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Who?  Sales people or programming people, or both?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1689              MR. HUNT:  Both.  We will have a fulltime morning host who will be the assistant program director; a fulltime afternoon host, who will also serve as the producer to input a lot of the content that we were talking about earlier; the people that will take care of our local news; and of course we will have sales people and administration staff, and what not.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1690              THE CHAIRPERSON:  So fact gathering will be done ‑‑ you will have people capable of collecting events, collecting information regarding events, regarding news, even if that information is kept locally for some part of the programming but also provided to the other people that are working out of Edmonton.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1691              MR. HUNT:  Yes.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 1692              THE CHAIRPERSON:  We will speak about Canadian Talent Development.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1693              I had a series of questions regarding religious programming, but it is part of your oral presentation and the first questions that you answered.  I think that will suffice for the sake of this part of the presentation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1694              When asked in deficiency how your $16,000 annual direct CTD contribution will be used by Vibe Gospel Music to support the development of Canadian talent, you responded by indicating the funds were a cash donation and directed staff to visit Shai Awards website.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1695              However, aside from the mission statement and descriptions of the awards show gala, no specific information was given concerning how your CTD funding will be used by the organization to develop Canadian Christian music talent and meet the CTD eligibility requirements.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1696              I heard earlier in your presentation Dionne Smith speaking more about the Shai Awards, but I may need more detail.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1697              Can you tell us how Vibe Gospel Music would use your annual $16,000 contribution?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1698              For example, will it be used to run workshops for aspiring Christian musicians or be used to underwrite showcase events during the awards week?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1699              We need some assurance that the funding will not be used by Vibe Gospel Music to underwrite day‑to‑day administrative costs or administrative costs related to the award shows, since these types of expenses are not eligible to CTD.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1700              MR. HUNSPERGER:  I think I will ask Dionne to answer this question for you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1701              If I can just help a little understanding, it used to all be called Vibe Awards and then they changed it to call it Shai Awards.  Dionne can tell you when they changed that terminology.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1702              So that is where we get caught from the deficiency versus where we are today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1703              She can tell you what happens with the finances and how her organization helps Canadian music.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1704              MS SMITH:  The Vibe Awards was actually five years ago.  Two years ago we changed the name to Shai Gospel Music due to conflicts with another award down in the U.S. with the name "Vibe Awards".

LISTNUM 1 \l 1705              We use the funds that are contributed through Touch towards numerous things.  We have events such as workshops that we do put on with education for our artists to enhance their music, to enhance their production of the music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1706              We also have scholarships for our artists that are available to them to enhance their music so that they can go out and produce more albums, of course to further the growth of the industry that we are trying to produce.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1707              We also use the funds for showcases and launching new artists that we are looking for and to develop the up‑and‑coming artists that are in the nation of Canada by doing showcases throughout Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1708              THE CHAIRPERSON:  What types of mechanisms do you have in place to ensure that the funding is used as directed?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1709              MR. HUNSPERGER:  We have been involved with Dionne from basically day one.  With her we have even been some of the judges on her panels and part of her organization from day one, although it's arm's length.  We aren't connected in any way.  But we know her quite well.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1710              When I picked her up from the airport today, Dionne was sharing about the time when we started talking about my feeling that we need some Canadian Gospel awards to really start to raise the level of some of these Gospel artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1711              Dionne had been doing on her own, having kind of a weekend ‑‑ maybe it was a one‑night thing, Dionne, I can't remember.  But it was a time where she got as many Gospel artists as possible and they all sang a couple of songs.  She invited people to come and hear these Canadian artists because she really wanted to elevate the Canadian artist.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1712              So then we sat down and said come on, let's elevate this thing.  Let's make it national.  Let's have an awards, Gospel music organization that is going to increase the level of presentation for these artists.  So that is what we did.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1713              We are quite assured that what Dionne does is very real to the artist.  And of course we have that ground level to the artist as well.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1714              And we are excited about the future as well.  They have gone through struggles, the Shai Awards have, but their future is bright and we are very thankful that the Shai Awards have even been played on Global Television and are starting to get national recognition.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1715              We know that Dionne is working even more with CBC and other television areas and hopefully we can get more and more recognition for these artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1716              THE CHAIRPERSON:  We will now move to the more business aspect of your application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1717              How was the survey conducted regarding advertising availability for Christian music radio?  Is there a link between your survey results and the level of advertising revenues that you are anticipating?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1718              I know that in the first survey that Ipsos Reid did for you there is a section about discussions with or a survey of potential advertisers.  I suspect they were not a random survey.  It was a survey directed to some identified potential advertisers that had an interest in Christian music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1719              Am I right?


LISTNUM 1 \l 1720              MR. HUNSPERGER:  Yes, you are.  But our business plan and our financials of our local sales are directly related to the businesses that we have approached on this plan that Mr. Moffat was talking about of four spots a day, seven days a week.  We know that if we sell out on those business packages, that represents 100 percent of the business plan in the budgets.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1721              THE CHAIRPERSON:  In the budgets.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1722              MR. HUNSPERGER:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1723              THE CHAIRPERSON:  So there is no tie between the Ipsos Reid survey and the research Mr. Moffat did on his own in the market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1724              MR. HUNSPERGER:  No.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1725              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Walking through the market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1726              MR. HUNSPERGER:  No.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1727              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Obviously implementing a station in Grande Prairie today is probably more expensive than implementing in other markets.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1728              Is your business plan taking into consideration the high cost of business in Grande Prairie?  And where will I find in your financials that you have taken that into consideration?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1729              MS GILLESPIE:  Yes, our estimates are pretty much the averages of what is going on in Grande Prairie right now.  Actually, we have been very conservative in over‑estimating our costs.  Our increase in rent goes up 10 percent a year, our utilities up 10 percent.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1730              They are a little higher than expenses, so we would rather be more conservative if we can, to take into account any fluctuations in the economy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1731              THE CHAIRPERSON:  And in terms of staff, recruiting and keeping staff.  We hear that in Grande Prairie the staff turnover is very rapid.  People seem to find jobs fairly easily.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1732              That means that you are going to be under pressure salary‑wise to keep your own employees.  Have you taken that into consideration?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1733              MS GILLESPIE:  Not necessarily with our niche market.  The employees that we have right now, I would dare to say almost more or the majority of them are already working well below regular levels.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1734              Pay does not necessarily attract our programming people.  It's the belief in our format that we attract a lot of employees.  Therefore, our pay schedule is not necessarily higher in Grande Prairie.  Most of our employees do work below the averages.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1735              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mrs. Taylor, do you agree with that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1736              MS TAYLOR:  Yes.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1737              MS GILLESPIE:  They are very loyal and very qualified, as well.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1738              MR. HUNSPERGER:  And how do you feel about that?

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1739              THE CHAIRPERSON:  What is the level of audience tuning that you project your proposed service will garner in the Grande Prairie radio market?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1740              MR. MOFFAT:  We are surveying a weekly reach in the 26,000 persons range.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1741              THE CHAIRPERSON:  26,000 person range.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1742              MR. MOFFAT:  In percentage?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1743              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes, market share.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1744              MR. MOFFAT:  Generally speaking with this format, we look at about half of what the survey would suggest.  So we are thinking in that 4 to 5 percent of the overall hours tuned.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1745              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Even if the survey is saying 37 percent of the Grande Prairie respondents will more than likely be listeners, so in terms of market share, using BBM as the base, you will say 4 to 5 percent is the reasonable market share that you can expect?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1746              MR. MOFFAT:  we certainly like to err on the side of caution.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1747              THE CHAIRPERSON:  It is easier to live with better numbers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1748              MR. MOFFAT:  We like to under‑promise and over‑deliver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1749              THE CHAIRPERSON:  In this area I understand what you mean.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1750              What impact do you believe your proposed service will have on the incumbent radio service, both in terms of revenues and audience?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1751              MR. HUNSPERGER:  We don't believe that we are going to have much impact, because as we have found out, even in other markets, we attract new advertisers to our station.  Many of them are even advertisers that couldn't afford advertising on some larger conventional stations but we are able to get them in on our niche station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1752              We always feel that we have very little impact when it comes to coming into the market against other broadcasters.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1753              As far as the audience, many of our core listeners who would be listening to us are listening to very little of the other radio stations now.  So we believe that we also bring new listeners to the radio market because they now can have their favourite artists and don't have to rely on CDs and things like that.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1754              So we believe that we bring a newer audience to the radio industry as we continue to open up, because this is such a new genre.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1755              THE CHAIRPERSON:  How many new stations do you think Grande Prairie can support at this time?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1756              MR. HUNSPERGER:  We had mentioned in our opening statement that we believe that Grande Prairie can support one, and perhaps even two, new conventional stations plus ourselves in the niche market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1757              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Among the other competitors, if we were to grant a licence to any of those who are applying today, I would suspect being a niche station you don't feel any of them will have a significant impact on your plan because you are so niche.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1758              MR. HUNSPERGER:  That is correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1759              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Did I forget to ask you what will be the median age of your listener?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1760              No, I didn't forget?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1761              MR. HUNSPERGER:  No.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1762              MR. HUNSPERGER:  Do you want us to say it again?


LISTNUM 1 \l 1763              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1764              MR. HUNT:  33 to 35.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1765              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1766              I know that Mrs. Cram has questions for you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1767              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1768              I wanted to go into your spoken word programming just a little more.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1769              The news, weather and sports, 6.6 hours a week, that is going to be produced in Edmonton.  Yes?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1770              MR. HUNT:  Not entirely.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1771              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Not entirely.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1772              MR. HUNT:  A portion of it.  We will have local people in Grande Prairie, and they will have the local aspect of it from Grande Prairie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1773              But the national and international aspects of it will be done, as it mentions on our News Network that is on there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1774              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yes.  Will it be done exclusively, then, for Grande Prairie, that national/international part, or would it be done for all of your stations?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1775              MR. HUNT:  It would be done for all of our stations.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1776              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Then how much of the 6.6 hours would be produced locally?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1777              And when I say "locally", I mean Grande Prairie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1778              MR. HUNT:  Right.  Our breakdown would be 60 percent national and 40 percent local, and 50:50 national/local when it comes to sports.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1779              So to answer your question, 40 percent would come from Grande Prairie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1780              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1781              The comedy and human interest, 1.5 hours, that is syndicated or something like that, is it?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1782              MR. HUNT:  We do produce some of our own, especially with our morning shows.  We have "Adventures of Charlie and Tera", which happens to be our morning show in Edmonton.  We will produce something very similar to that in Grande Prairie, and some syndicated stuff as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1783              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So how much of it would be actually produced in Grande Prairie out of that 1.5 hours per week:  for Grande Prairie in Grande Prairie?


LISTNUM 1 \l 1784              MR. HUNT:  The one feature I mentioned, the Adventures or whatever it might be, that would likely be the only one that would be produced in Grande Prairie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1785              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  The announcer content, how much of that 8.3 hours would be in the voice tracked part?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1786              MR. HUNT:  Our breakdown of voice track to live, it breaks down that we would have 35 hours ‑‑ and I am going to get there.  Just give me one second.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1787              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1788              MR. HUNT:  So 35 hours of our week would be live; 53 would be voice tracked.  Then we have the syndicated and TCB‑produced program and then the brokered programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1789              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  You said 35 hours live?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1790              MR. HUNT:  Correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1791              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  How did you get that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1792              MR. HUNT:  Morning drive and afternoon drive.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1793              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  That's three hours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1794              MR. HUNT:  And afternoon drive.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1795              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And that's five hours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1796              MR. HUNT:  Correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1797              No, it is actually more than that, because the afternoon drive is five on its own.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1798              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Pardon me?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1799              MR. HUNT:  The afternoon drive is five hours.  We have a long drive.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1800              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Plus three, that's eight hours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1801              MR. HUNT:  Correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1802              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Times five.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1803              MR. HUNT:  My mistake.  That's 40 hours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1804              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  My God, I thought I had actually really blown my math.  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1805              So it is 40 hours.  Let's get this straight.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1806              How much voice tracking did you say?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1807              Now I've blown your whole math; right?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1808              MR. HUNT:  I'm a radio guy.  I am not into math.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1809              My apologies.  Give me two seconds.

‑‑‑ Pause


LISTNUM 1 \l 1810              MR. HUNT:  I'm just going to double‑check.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 1811              MR. HUNT:  It will be 52 hours of voice tracked.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1812              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And that is 52 hours of the broadcast week?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1813              MR. HUNT:  Correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1814              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Of the broadcast week.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1815              MR. HUNT:  Yes, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1816              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.  So 52 hours voice tracking.  Then that 8.3 announcer content will be in proportion; 40 over 53 would be within the 40 hours of local programming per week.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1817              MR. HUNT:  Correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1818              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And it is your position that voice tracking from Edmonton/Calgary where somebody mentions the Grande Prairie Prairie Dogs is what we would call local programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1819              MR. HUNT:  I would consider it that, because they are specific breaks to the music that we are playing on that radio station.  We are talking about the local events, as you mention.  We are giving station call letters.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1820              From our perspective, the only difference would be live versus prerecorded.  The content would be much the same.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1821              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Let me get this together.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1822              You would have the same music for all of your stations.  The program breaks would be specific to Edmonton, Calgary ‑‑ or have I got it wrong?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1823              MR. HUNT:  Just to clarify, our music style is the same across our radio stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1824              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1825              MR. HUNT:  But the actual rotation is different from market to market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1826              The rotation that we have in Edmonton, as I mention, with our Canadian content, it does vary slightly.  So when we talk about ‑‑ the log for Grande Prairie will be completely different.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1827              If you were to tune into the radio stations in the different locations, you are not going to hear the same song at the same time.  That might happen periodically.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1828              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  I am having a difficult time understanding this.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1829              You know that our policy is that you can't solicit advertising unless you have 42 hours of local programming.  The purpose of that rule is that you actually concern yourself with the community and you are involved in it and you are giving them what they want.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1830              I am having a very difficult time seeing your voice tracking as being local.  So help me out.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1831              Then otherwise your advertising plan is not going to work at all, because you will not be able to solicit any advertising.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1832              I need to figure out how you have 42 hours of local programming if I don't count your voice tracking.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1833              MR. HUNSPERGER:  To us, the difference between voice tracking and live is more of an economic scenario.  But as far as the programming scenario, there is no difference.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1834              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  I am saying from the community's point of view.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1835              MR. HUNSPERGER:  Right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1836              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  You are going to be talking about news that is at least as old as when it was voice tracked, you are going to be talking about weather that may or may not be in or out of date.  You are talking about sports that are old in terms of when it is voice tracked.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1837              What service are you giving to the community?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1838              MR. HUNT:  I just wanted to clarify the difference between our news programming and a voice track on our radio station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1839              Our news programming is as up to date as any other news programming.  Our news is, as we mentioned, on the half hour during the morning shows.  Those sports reports are accurate.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1840              They are all produced day‑of.  Those newscasts are done.  The local stuff is done live during the morning show.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1841              You mentioned the sports and the ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1842              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Say you are voice tracking at night and you are saying "well, it was a nice day today.  It went up to 30 degrees" ‑‑ and in fact it rained ‑‑ "and the Prairie Dogs are up for a game tomorrow" ‑‑ and that's been cancelled.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1843              I mean, what kind of a service does voice tracking provide?  What kind of local programming service are you giving to the city of Grande Prairie?


LISTNUM 1 \l 1844              MR. HUNT:  We have the ability with our network ‑‑ and we do this currently ‑‑ to update anything that happens to change.  We utilize the local people to be able to instruct the others within their network that they will be able to update those at any given moment.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1845              I can give you an example.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1846              We do some voice tracking on the FM station here in Edmonton.  The voice tracker sends some updated tracks because The Oilers won on Saturday night, although the previous tracks had been done earlier in the week.  But the updates were created so that we could remain topical and relevant to the community that we are in.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1847              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And with three staff and a part‑time local reporter/anchor, who does that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1848              MR. HUNT:  A lot of that stuff can be done remotely.  In fact, I did it from my kitchen table, the voice tracks for the weekend.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1849              Technology is a wonderful thing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1850              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And confusing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1851              I again wanted to get to your position that this is not a religious station but a Gospel music station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1852              Predicated on the fact that a religious station is playing Christian music, isn't Gospel music just a subset of Christian music?


LISTNUM 1 \l 1853              MR. HUNSPERGER:  We have always declared, ever since 1994, that we are not a religious radio station; we are a Gospel music radio station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1854              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  My question?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1855              MR. HUNSPERGER:  The answer to your question is yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1856              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  It is a subset.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1857              MR. HUNSPERGER:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1858              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  There is no such thing as Muslim Gospel music or Jewish Gospel music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1859              MR. HUNSPERGER:  No, but we don't know the faiths or the denominational backgrounds of individuals that are singing the music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1860              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  It is fair to say that it is all Christian, though.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1861              MR. HUNSPERGER:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1862              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  There was one thing I didn't understand in your brief.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1863              There is the agreement Mr. Teichroeb and yourselves.  It is at page 5 of that agreement, paragraph (q).

LISTNUM 1 \l 1864              MR. HUNSPERGER:  Sorry?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1865              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Do you have that agreement with you?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1866              MR. HUNSPERGER:  No, we don't have that in front of us.  I'm sorry.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1867              Maybe I can answer the question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1868              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  I will read it to you:

"The Venture shall be terminated upon the happening of any of the following:

(a) the written agreement to the termination of the Venture prior to the incorporation of the corporation; or

(b) the denial of the application by the CRTC; or

(c) the Venture determines from the Ipsos Reid report that there is not a big enough market for a Gospel format; or

(d) upon reviewing the financial statements of the existing broadcasters and determining the market is not at least $8 million annual revenues."

LISTNUM 1 \l 1869              What does it mean by market of $8 million?  The radio ad revenue?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1870              MR. HUNSPERGER:  Yes.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1871              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1872              Thank you, Mr. Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1873              THE CHAIRPERSON:  How have you been capable to review that the market was at $8 million revenues?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1874              The other applicants are all saying ‑‑ the applicant we heard this morning was talking about somewhere between $4 million.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1875              MR. HUNSPERGER:  We have a report here from Statistics Canada for Grande Prairie that basically says for 2003 the total revenue coming in in 2003 was $9,960,558.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1876              MR. MOFFAT:  I would like to add, Mr. Chairman, that this report came from the Radio Marketing Bureau.  It is quoted as a Statistics Canada for Grande Prairie radio revenue statement.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1877              It is my understanding, as well, when we researched these numbers further on down the road that we are under the impression that these numbers are for Grande Prairie, Fort McMurray and all points in between, which is why the probably more accurate estimate of the marketplace would be in that four to $5 million.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1878              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Could you comment on what Mrs. Cram read to you regarding particularly the last section of subsection (q), which says that if the market is not at least $8 million annual revenues, the agreement between Touch Canada and Mr. Teichroeb will be terminated?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1879              MR. HUNSPERGER:  That has already been answered by this report.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1880              THE CHAIRPERSON:  I see.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1881              MR. HUNSPERGER:  We had written up that agreement before this report came to us.  When this report came to us, that is null and void now.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1882              We are full bore ahead for Grande Prairie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1883              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mrs. Cugini.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1884              COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1885              Good morning.  I have just a couple of questions to follow up with the conversation you had with Chair Arpin earlier with regard to your youth‑oriented programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1886              I suspect ‑‑ but in this job I've learned to have my suspicions confirmed or denied.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1887              Is that the Saturday night block of Rock, Hip Hop and Rap?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1888              MR. HUNT:  Correct.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1889              COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  In that block, will those artists be exclusively Christian Rock bands, Christian Hip Hop and Christian Rap artists?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1890              MR. HUNT:  Correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1891              COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Will those artists also be scattered throughout the rest of the schedule?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1892              MR. HUNT:  Some of them will, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1893              COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Some of them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1894              MR. HUNT:  And some have a harder edge to some of their music and a milder edge; so, yes, a lot of them will be sprinkled ‑‑ not necessarily the same song.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1895              COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Right.  And will that Saturday night block be live or voice track?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1896              MR. HUNT:  It is syndicated and the majority of it is live syndicated programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1897              COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Syndicated with your other radio stations?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1898              MR. HUNT:  No.  It is actually syndicated from the U.S.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1899              COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  So there won't be any Canadian content in that block?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1900              MR. HUNT:  There is always Canadian content.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1901              The Canadian music industry is growing, and yes, there is going to be Canadian content during that period.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1902              COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Ms Smith, you talked earlier about how the Shai Awards and the activities around the Shai Awards are also contributing to identifying new Canadian artists that would comply with this format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1903              Are they in the Rock, Hip Hop and Rap genres and/or are they also in the other types of Gospel music that will be featured on this radio station, if licensed?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1904              MS SMITH:  Within our awards we have 23 categories.  Those categories range from Rock, Hip Hop to Contemporary Pop to Francophone to Instrumental.  They vary, as with any other music that you hear on a radio station.  We have all those various genres.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1905              So it fits within numerous genres that we are working with with our artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1906              COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  One final question and it really goes more to marketing and promotion and therefore hopefully attracting an untapped audience perhaps to your radio station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1907              The context of this question is, I don't know, three or four years ago The Blind Boys of Alabama opened for Peter Gabriel, exposing perhaps an untapped audience to that music.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1908              Between your efforts as radio broadcasters and perhaps in collaboration with the Shai Awards, what are some of the things you are doing to expose a new audience that wouldn't otherwise tune into your radio station?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1909              MR. HUNSPERGER:  That is a good question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1910              As I had mentioned before, we bring a new audience to the radio just by virtue of our genre.  We also know that the more Canadian artists that we can add to our content and our playlist, the more people we bring to the radio.  People start listening because they go, "Oh, that girl is from Edmonton" or "that girl is from Fort McMurray" or "that girl is from Grande Prairie", or guy, or whatever.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1911              So we automatically start doing that, the more we can build up artists in that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1912              We had one of our artists who had won a Juno and several Shai awards, and now he is actually starting to do some commercials and some commercial work.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1913              So what is happening is that some of our people, our artists that are in this genre, are starting to get a bit excited and they are starting to say maybe I can make a living in this genre, because most of them can't.  Most of them sing on weekends or do whatever they possibly can.  But that is starting to happen.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1914              I wish I had a better answer to your question, but I believe that we are bringing new people by that very virtue.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1915              MR. HUNT:  I would like to add, as well, the concert aspect of the music, that exposes our music to a lot of people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1916              I will use the example in Calgary, coming up at the Calgary Stampede this year.  There are going to be three of our artists performing on the final day of the stampede.  One of them is a Canadian artist, which is Starfield.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1917              COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  I don't mean to interrupt you, but just to clarify, when you say "one of our artists", do you mean these are artists that you as a radio broadcaster have developed or have helped to develop, or that you have exposed on your radio station or have sponsored?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1918              What do you mean by "our artists"?


LISTNUM 1 \l 1919              MR. HUNT:  We consider the music that we play ‑‑ I mean, it is one big happy family.  Our artists are the people that we play that you are not hearing on any other radio station.  That is what I mean by that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1920              COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1921              MR. HUNT:  Not specifically that we are supporting them with direct funds or anything like that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1922              But when I consider our artists, we are not playing mainstream Rock or any of the other artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1923              And back to the point about the concerts, that is exposing our type of music to a lot of people.  And by being in a market such as Grande Prairie, being able to have this music available to them on the radio and then be able to go out and see a concert with a lot of these artists, I think that would be, hopefully in answer to your question, that we will be able to promote that and further that in that market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1924              MR. HUNSPERGER:  I think another thing that is an interesting part of this, this is the second year for the Calgary Stampede.  It became so successful last year that they have now done it another year in a row.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1925              And then last December, which was kind of an exciting thing that also seems to start to develop into an annual thing, Michael W. Smith came up, which is one of our artists with the Edmonton Symphony, and did a Christmas program.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1926              It was so successful, he did two shows because they all sold out.  I think all of us were blown over with joy to start to see those kinds of responses to our artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1927              COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Ms Smith, did you want to add?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1928              MS SMITH:  I just wanted to expand.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1929              I also sit on the screening board for the Juno Awards for Gospel music.  I sit on the board and watch 40 submissions come in each year for all of Canada for Gospel music.  And within our awards we have over a thousand that submit.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1930              In saying all that, what we have created and what we are creating is a platform for the Gospel artists that aren't given anywhere else.  They see that they have an opportunity through this awards to be recognized.  We are aired on Global and we have been since we started five years ago, which has given our artists a platform.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1931              In giving them this platform through the Shai Awards, being recognized as an artist that has won a Shai Award nationally by the Canadian people, has given them now the way into the Juno Awards to be nominated for the Juno Awards.  With that title as a Shai Awards winner for all of Canada, the Juno Awards now takes recognition of those artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1932              So that is how we are actually helping to promote a national awareness of these artists across Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1933              COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1934              Thank you, Mr. Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1935              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Langford?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1936              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1937              I just have one question for you.  It is on the notion of balanced programming.  You discussed that with the Chairman and I think we are fairly clear on the way you want to kind of oversee the brokered programming; to make sure that if balance is required, somehow you will get it there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1938              I wonder if we could firm that up a little, though.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1939              A good many Christian programmers try to actually formalize this by having a program every week or some aspect of a program every week, bring in the kind of spokespeople that can bring a balanced view to it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1940              Have you given that any thought?


LISTNUM 1 \l 1941              I know program is expensive and you folks aren't sitting on bags of money, but have you actually thought of formalizing this kind of approach to balance programming so that you have it done on a weekly basis?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1942              MR. HUNSPERGER:  We have thought of it and we have discussed it thoroughly, to the best that we are trying to come up with what is the very, very best that we can do in this issue.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1943              We want to heavily promote this dedicated line where even after our religious content brokered programming, we are going to ask people to call in their comments.  Then we are going to play these comments on our morning show and our afternoon shows, and people are going to be able to express their views.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1944              We are hoping that that is going to do a better job than even what we could do in producing some kind of a program.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1945              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  My problem with that ‑‑ and you guys are the experts; I am just here trying to get a sense of it from listening to you.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1946              The problem with that is that there are no guarantees that what you will have, possibly, is a good deal of uninformed comment, quite frankly ‑‑ and we are all uninformed about many things.  So I don't say that critically.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1947              But people will phone in perhaps and say I really liked the show, or I didn't like the show and I was glad to hear whoever, or I wasn't glad to hear whoever, or I hated whoever.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1948              But that doesn't add the next really important element, which would be that the priest or minister or spokesperson who was on some show giving a Christian point of view, and giving it correctly and soberly and in a conservative way, still wasn't giving the other sides of the picture, the other viewpoints.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1949              For example, wouldn't it be preferable to somehow bolster this sense that the community can contribute with an element of your programming, maybe just two or three minutes after an hour or two, or whatever, a block of brokered programming, maybe five minutes of some spokespeople from other faiths getting together and saying well, that was interesting and it's mirrored in what we do in this religion, or unfortunately it doesn't reflect what we do in this religion?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1950              It seems to me that kind of informed approach to balance really meets the spirit of the religious balance policy that we have.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1951              You might get it, if you are lucky, with people calling in and e‑mailing in, but you very well might not get it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1952              Do you see where I am heading?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1953              MR. HUNSPERGER:  Yes, sir.  And we have said that if we don't get it, we will then produce something so that it is got.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1954              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I am going to give you some homework, because I don't think you should watch the hockey game either.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1955              You don't have to do this in written form.  You don't have to hand this in written, so there will be no marks for neatness.  But maybe you could flesh that out in your minds a little and when you come back to us in Phase III, which I think will be Wednesday, maybe just give us a sense that if you feel the need for this type of commentary ‑‑ I have given you one way that it might work ‑‑ this is the way we see ourselves doing it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1956              From what I am hearing here, I think you are struggling with this and you have come a long way in the struggle.  And I feel a real genuine sense from this group that you want to meet this challenge.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1957              I wonder if I could push you just a little farther saying if this open line stuff doesn't work, if we are not getting real balance, and just not getting complaints isn't enough, you know.  Sometimes if you are not getting real balance, here's how we see ourselves perhaps meeting that challenge.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1958              Could you do that for us?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1959              MR. HUNSPERGER:  Yes, sir.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1960              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1961              MS MURPHY:  Just to clarify, that would be in Phase IV.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1962              MR. HUNSPERGER:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1963              MS MURPHY:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1964              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Hunsperger, I am giving you two minutes to tell us why the Commission should grant you a licence to serve Grande Prairie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1965              MR. HUNSPERGER:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1966              We really appreciate once again, like we said before, to be able to come in front of you.  We know that there are a lot of people in the Grande Prairie area that have dreamed for this for a long time.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1967              Like I mentioned to you before, way back in 2004 when I got together with Peter and some of the businessmen in Grande Prairie, we realized that these people had been struggling with this issue for a long, long time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1968              When we came to them and said look, we could actually have a full power Gospel music radio station 24/7, they were excited.  And when we started to put together a business plan that made sense both to them and to us, they were also very excited about that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1969              In our humble opinion, we have never come before the Commission with an application so ready for an area as we are with Grande Prairie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1970              These business people that we talk about and that have looked at this business plan are more than excited to be here.  Mr. Teichroeb brings a lot of things to us, and we are very thankful for that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1971              We are ready to serve this market in the best way we possibly can, with as much local content as possible.  And we will always strive to be the very best Gospel music radio station Grande Prairie has, or will ever have.  We believe that we bring that balance and diversity and representation to an audience that is looking for our station to happen in Grande Prairie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1972              We thank you so much for this opportunity.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1973              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.  We will break now and come back after lunch, at 2 o'clock.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1300 / Suspension à 1300

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1410 / Reprise à 1410

LISTNUM 1 \l 1974              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order, please.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1975              Madam Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1976              THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1977              We will now proceed with Item 3 on the agenda, which is an application by Newcap Inc. for a licence to operate an English‑language FM commercial radio programming undertaking in Grande Prairie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1978              The new station would operate on frequency 98.9 MHz (channel 255C1) with an effective radiated power of 100,000 watts (non‑directional antenna/antenna height of 238 metres).

LISTNUM 1 \l 1979              Appearing for the applicant is Mr. Robert Steele, who will introduce his colleagues.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1980              You will have 20 minutes for your presentation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1981              Mr. Steele.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

LISTNUM 1 \l 1982              MR. STEELE:  Thank you.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1983              Mr. Chair, members of the Commission, Commission staff, I am Rob Steele, President and Chief Executive Officer of Newcap Radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1984              Joining me today, on your right, are David Murray, VP Operations; Rob Mise, Director of Programming for Newcap, based here in Edmonton; Glenda Spenrath, Assistant GM of Newcap's Alberta Radio group East, based in Lloydminster; and Mark Maheu, Executive Vice‑President and Chief Operating Officer of Newcap Radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1985              And next to me is Al Anderson, GM of the Alberta Radio Group, also from Edmonton.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1986              Thank you for considering this application from Newcap for a new FM radio station to serve the radio listeners of Grande Prairie, Alberta.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1987              Radio listeners have, of course, always been the reason we have a business but as we all know, things are changing rapidly.  Many broadcasters, Newcap included, are quickly rethinking our propositions to listeners.  It is not enough any more to pick the right format and play the right songs.  Today's listeners have an increasing number of listening options and they are exercising their right to choose like never before.  Markets like Grande Prairie and Fort McMurray are no exception to changing listener tastes and expectations.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1988              As you heard in Ottawa last month, there are varying degrees of concern from private broadcasters about the future of radio.  At Newcap Radio we strongly believe that radio's best days are still ahead of us as long as we take the time, the energy and resources to create compelling and engaging local radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1989              That is why we are here before you today looking for a licence to serve the community of Grande Prairie, Alberta.  If approved, Newcap intends to bring a new, local listening choice to Grande Prairie.  A choice that includes a lot more than music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1990              MR. ANDERSON:  When you stop and think about it, it is an extraordinary thing that Grande Prairie faces the same ever increasing degree of competition from non‑radio sources as large market radio stations.  Licensing the right new station or stations to serve Grande Prairie could have a very significant and positive impact on the ability of this radio market to remain strong and relevant.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1991              The City of Grande Prairie has 45,000 people and will exceed 50,000 within five years.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1992              Grande Prairie is the regional centre of the Peace Country, and effectively the central hub of Northern Alberta, serving a market area of more than 100,000 people and a radio market of around 70,000 people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1993              Among other things, this makes Grande Prairie the shopping capital of the north.  Estimated retail sales for 2006 will exceed one billion dollars or $25,000 per person ‑‑ more than double the national average.  Retail sales are projected to grow by 51 percent over the next five years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1994              Consistent with its history, resource base and regional status, Grande Prairie's economy is incredibly diverse with other key sectors including agriculture, forestry, oil and gas and regional facilities such as the Grande Prairie Regional College, the Queen Elizabeth II Hospital and the Crystal Centre ‑‑ a sports, entertainment and convention facility.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1995              The region was built on agriculture, which continues today as one of the leading economic sectors.  Discovery of the Elmworth/Deep Basin fields has also resulted in substantial petroleum and natural gas development in the region.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1996              Not surprisingly, job growth, housing starts and other local and regional economic indicators are all very strong, well exceeding the national average.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1997              All this in a market with only two local, private radio stations.  Clearly, the opportunity for Grande Prairie to sustain more is definitely there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1998              MR. MISE:  In Grande Prairie we commissioned Mark Kassof and Company to determine the radio format that residents there are searching for.  Kassof conducted 250 telephone interviews with radio listeners in the 18‑64 demographic.  We evaluated eight format options ‑‑ '80s/'90s, Active Rock, CHR, Classic Hits, Classic Rock, Country, Hot A/C and Soft A/C.  We described each format using artist examples and music montages.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1999              Our research suggests that the single best format opportunity for a new FM in Grande Prairie, Alberta, is Classic Hits.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11000             Classic Hits is generating more interest than the other formats we tested.  Twenty‑three percent express strong positive interest ‑‑ i.e., they would listen to it all of the time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11001             With the two incumbent private radio stations in the AC and Country format, it is not surprising that most of our respondents did not associate any station with Classic Hits.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11002             As a result, Classic Hits represents the biggest unserved listening need in Grande Prairie radio.  Twenty‑six percent of those surveyed expressed positive interest in Classic Hits and cannot associate any station with the format ‑‑ what we call "Percent of Format Void".

LISTNUM 1 \l 11003             The potential listeners for a Classic Hits station are less satisfied with their radio choices than are Grande Prairie listeners as a whole.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11004             We project an 18‑64 share of 27 percent for this format.  Overall, the station will rank third, close behind CJXX‑FM.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11005             As is the case in every community that Newcap Radio serves, we take great care to ensure that our service meets the needs of the market.  Each city and town is different and has its own nuances and tastes.  And in each market we customize our format to reflect the desires of the community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11006             For example, our Classic Hits station in Halifax is different from our Classic Hits station in Wainwright, Alberta.  Each one is designed to best serve the needs of the community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11007             While the vast majority of the music we will play will be from the 70's, 80's and 90's, about 10 percent of the music will be from today and most of that will be Canadian.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11008             MR. ANDERSON:  While the focus of Grande Prairie‑FM will be music, we are proposing a radio station to serve the residents of Grande Prairie on an equally, if not even more, important level: the community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11009             Grande Prairie‑FM will strive to provide a strong local news and community presence and act as a fresh radio news voice that is not simply present in Grande Prairie today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11010             When we were researching our application, we went to Grande Prairie and spoke with many residents, business owners and public officials.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11011             The same themes kept coming up:  more local news, more local information was needed from local radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11012             With these needs in mind, Newcap is proposing an increase in information service to Grande Prairie.  This will include:

LISTNUM 1 \l 11013             (1) frequent updates on traffic and road conditions, especially in the winter months;

LISTNUM 1 \l 11014             (2) frequent weather updates and long‑range weather forecasts important to industry and agriculture;

LISTNUM 1 \l 11015             (3) regular, daily updates on Agri‑business and Agri‑news; and


LISTNUM 1 \l 11016             (4) regular prime time business reports focusing on energy, oil and gas development for the many thousands of people whose livelihood depends on these businesses.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11017             We will present 53 weekly newscasts ‑‑ both during the work week as well as on weekends ‑‑ all of them sourced and presented by our staff in Grande Prairie.  We will offer our listeners 75 percent local content in all newscasts, with the remaining 25 percent being relevant news and information from Alberta, the rest of Canada and of course the world.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11018             Regular announcer and personality talk on everything from topical issues to community events will bring Grande Prairie‑FM's total weekly news and spoken word programming to in excess of 14 hours per week.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11019             To give you an even better feel for Grande Prairie‑FM's programming, we have put the following audio together.

‑‑‑ Audio clip / Clip audio

LISTNUM 1 \l 11020             MS SPENRATH:  To accomplish all this, Grande Prairie‑FM will, on a weekly basis, employ a number of initiatives to serve and reflect the local community.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11021             These include:

LISTNUM 1 \l 11022             ‑ three fulltime news reporters;

LISTNUM 1 \l 11023             ‑ 53 news packages;

LISTNUM 1 \l 11024             ‑ 35 community event updates;

LISTNUM 1 \l 11025             ‑ one‑hour public affairs program;

LISTNUM 1 \l 11026             ‑ listener opinion polls;

LISTNUM 1 \l 11027             ‑ fundraising efforts on‑air for local charities;

LISTNUM 1 \l 11028             ‑ public service announcements;

LISTNUM 1 \l 11029             ‑ music specialty programs emphasizing new music by local artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11030             In addition to the local news team focusing on Grande Prairie news, Grande Prairie radio listeners will benefit from the news gathering from the 40 existing news employees working for Newcap in Alberta today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11031             Newcap's News Directors in each market share stories and coverage from around the province.  This means more relevant Alberta news stories for the residents of Grande Prairie.  Stories making news in Grande Prairie will also be shared with other Newcap stations in Alberta providing Grande Prairie additional profile and exposure throughout the province.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11032             MR. MAHEU:  We have proposed a package of Canadian Talent Development totalling $525,000 over the term of the licence, spending $75,000 in each year of the first seven years of licence.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11033             First, the Radio Starmaker Fund will receive $140,000 over the licence term to contribute to their mandate of taking promising Canadian artists to the next level.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11034             Second, we will create and fund to the tune of $280,000 an annual Alberta Musicians Convention to take place in Grande Prairie.  Local artists will be able to meet with radio programmers and record company executives and representatives, hear guest speakers from within the industry and showcase their talents.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11035             Third, we will partner with the Grande Prairie School Board to provide a comprehensive $105,000 three‑part music program.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11036             The first part will provide musical instruments to students unable to afford quality instruments.  We anticipate that to be $5,000 each year.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11037             Second, we will fund five annual music scholarships for $1,000 each to the students in the Grande Prairie School Board music program.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11038             The third part of the program will provide $5,000 annually to support Grande Prairie School Music Festivals.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11039             In addition, the station will provide approximately an additional $286,000 in indirect support to promote local music talent on the air.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11040             Talking about the economic impact on the existing radio market, given Grande Prairie's strong economy and the clear market void for our proposed Classic Hits format, we strongly believe our Grande Prairie‑FM could be absorbed with minimal negative impact on the incumbent stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11041             We at Newcap believe that we are all better served by competing with each other for audience share and competing with other media for advertising revenue.  While in a market with just two existing private radio stations, it is impossible not to have some financial impact.  We look to enhance growth rather than slicing up the existing pie.  In Grande Prairie, we estimate that only 35 percent of year one revenues will be generated from existing radio advertising budgets.  Fully 65 percent of year one revenue will come from other sources.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11042             Fifty percent is going to come from new radio advertisers, including other media.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11043             Our experience confirms that new radio advertisers and those currently advertising in newspapers and on TV will be drawn to Grande Prairie‑FM because of the distinct and largely unsatisfied audience that we can attract to the radio station

LISTNUM 1 \l 11044             Fifteen percent will come from expanded radio advertising budgets.  This would come from both natural market growth and the stimulative effect of competition.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11045             Based on our estimate of $4 million for the existing radio market in Grande Prairie, and growth rates anticipated to be in the 4 to 5 percent range over the next few years, this alone would add approximately $200,000 each year excluding the new revenue generated by Grande Prairie‑FM.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11046             MR. STEELE:  In Grande Prairie today, particularly given the presence of two strong incumbents, we believe that licensing Newcap would best serve the public interest for two reasons.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11047             First, introducing a strong experienced operator like Newcap into a healthy market will ensure that this market will stay healthy.  We are particularly proud of our record in this regard.  In similar sized markets like Fredericton where we have been given the privilege of a new licence, we have successfully grown radio's share of the local advertising market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11048             Second, we believe that our track record in operating stations in similar sized markets will help us launch a station that gives Grande Prairie a reason to keep listening to radio.  Operating across Canada allows us the opportunity to experiment a bit more, see trends and be ahead of the curve.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11049             We also know Alberta well, and we are structured to provide the best mix of local and regional support.  That doesn't mean we always get it right, but it certainly increases the odds.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11050             Simply put, we believe that with our strong Alberta base and experience, we are uniquely positioned to provide a new radio voice to this market and fill the format void for Classic Hits with Grande Prairie‑FM.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11051             We believe that the Grande Prairie market is underserved by commercial radio and that our proposed station will have little impact on existing radio stations.  With only two commercial FM Stations, radio listeners and advertisers will welcome Grande Prairie‑FM.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11052             We are committed to providing Grande Prairie residents with a strong local radio service ‑‑ a service that answers their call for a vibrant new local news and information service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11053             Our panel, headed by Mark Maheu, will be happy to answer any questions that you have.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11054             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Steele.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11055             I am asking Ms Cram to initiate the questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11056             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you, Mr. Chair, gentlemen and Ms Spenrath.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11057             I will start with your programming.  Particularly, I want to start with your local programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11058             You talked about two different spoken word local programming "Cool Cause" and "Grande Prairie Today".  It seems they are both about community events.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11059             How are they different?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11060             MR. MAHEU:  If I may, I am going to ask Rob Mise to kind of explain the difference between "Cool Cause of the Day" and "Grande Prairie Today".

LISTNUM 1 \l 11061             Go ahead, Rob.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11062             MR. MISE:  There is a bit of a difference actually.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11063             "Grande Prairie Today" is more of an immediate feature that would have an impact on the market, either today or tomorrow, an actual cause or fund raiser or actual school event.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11064             The other feature is more long term; that is going to be happening maybe three‑four weeks down the road.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11065             Those are the big differences.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11066             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11067             In terms of your music‑based programming, there is "Then and Now", "A Year in Your Ear" and "Cool Requests".

LISTNUM 1 \l 11068             I notice that they are the same as you were proposing for Fort McMurray.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11069             If you get both stations, Fort McMurray and Grande Prairie, would there be synergies?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11070             MR. MAHEU:  No, there would not, Commissioner Cram.  The application for Fort McMurray and Grande Prairie, we used them as working titles.  The features will be similar but they will be conducted live and unique in each marketplace, depending.  One feature might air at one time in one market and at a different time in another.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11071             We don't share any resources.  We do these types of features on a number of our Classic Hit stations throughout Canada now, and they are each handled kind of in their own way, customized to their market.  Sometimes the shows are an hour long, sometimes they are two hours long.  It depends on the competitive environment.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11072             But no synergies whatsoever.  They are unique and conducted independently in each market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11073             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So habitually they are produced 100 percent local?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11074             MR. MAHEU:  That is correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11075             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  You say you do it in the other Classic Hits stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11076             MR. MAHEU:  We do it on some, yes, we do.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11077             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Oh, just on some.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11078             MR. MAHEU:  Yes.  I believe we do it in Sudbury and I believe we do it in Halifax.  I'm not sure if we do it in Wainwright or not.  Rob?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11079             MR. MISE:  No, we don't, but we do it in Fredericton for sure ‑‑ and here in Edmonton in K‑Rock.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11080             MR. MAHEU:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11081             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  How much of your programming, at least your proposed programming, would not be locally produced?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11082             MR. MAHEU:  Well, I am going to define locally produced.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11083             Everything that we do is going to be locally produced.  In terms of live programming with real people behind a microphone conducting an on‑air show, from Monday to Friday we are going to be live from 5:00 in the morning until midnight, and we are going to voice track the overnight show; so midnight to 5:00.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11084             On the weekends, we will be live from 6:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m., and we will either have special programming on Saturday or Sunday nights or voice track.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11085             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So how many hours of voice tracking is it?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11086             MR. MAHEU:  If you are operating on a 24‑hour clock, we would do 24 hours of voice tracking on the weekend, 24 hours live, 24 hours voice‑tracked.  The voice track would take place in the evening and the overnight hours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11087             During the week, we would have 25 hours a week of voice tracking between midnight and 5:00 a.m.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11088             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Essentially, then, during the regulated broadcast time ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11089             MR. MAHEU:  We are live.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11090             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  You are live.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11091             MR. MAHEU:  Yes.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11092             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  One hundred percent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11093             MR. MAHEU:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11094             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  No syndicated programming, none of that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11095             MR. MAHEU:  We are not anticipating any at this point, and there is not a lot of really good syndicated programming available right now for Classic Hits as a format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11096             I wouldn't say in the course of a seven‑year licence that if something came up that was suitable for the audience that we wouldn't consider it.  But it is not in the plans right now.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11097             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  I forget if it was in Grande Prairie or in Fort McMurray, but there was another applicant that said that they would be non‑voice tracked 100 percent of the time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11098             If we were considering giving you the licence, would you accept a COL that it would be 100 percent non‑voice tracked?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11099             I will figure out a better terminology for that later.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11100             MR. MAHEU:  I think I know what you mean, though.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11101             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Right.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11102             MR. MAHEU:  Our business plan as we have submitted it in our application, our financials are based on the idea of being live this amount of time.  That would have some impact on our business plan.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11103             We believe that given the number of people using radio in a marketplace like Grande Prairie between midnight and 5:00 a.m. that you would be somewhat hard‑pressed to justify having a live person on the air seven nights a week, overnight.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11104             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  I meant during the regular broadcast day.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11105             MR. MAHEU:  I'm sorry.  Yes, we are certainly willing for that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11106             I'm sorry, I thought you meant on a 24‑hour day.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11107             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  No.  In the broadcast day you would accept a COL.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11108             MR. MAHEU:  Sure, absolutely.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11109             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  News and public affairs.  You are going to have two fulltime equivalent journalists, which consists of a news director and two journalist announcers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11110             Their functions would be to collect the news, read the news.  What else?


LISTNUM 1 \l 11111             MR. MAHEU:  I am going to let Glenda Spenrath fill you in a little bit more about our commitments to news and how we will handle it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11112             MS SPENRATH:  Yes, there would be actually three fulltime news employees: the director and two news employees as well.  They would collect and read news.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11113             There would be several formatted newscasts throughout the day, that would total over the course of a week three and a half hours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11114             Seventy‑five percent of this, or about two and a half hours, would be local news.  The other hour would be news that they may share with other Newcap news directors from throughout the province.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11115             In addition to that, we are planning to have several information report updates throughout the course of the week.  And by "several", I mean that we would have 30‑second clips that would be ‑‑ probably three per hour, 18 hours a day, seven days a week.  And it would provide information on weather reports, especially in the winter time, traffic reports, up to the date information on ag business, you know the commodity prices, the fluctuations up and down, and the oil prices as well.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11116             When you tie all this together, it is another three hours of local news that they would present.  And it would all be presented by the local news people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11117             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Would they all be producing the "Cool Cause" and "Grande Prairie Today"?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11118             MS SPENRATH:  I think I will defer that question to Rob.  I believe it would be sharing between them and the news announcers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11119             MR. MISE:  It would actually come from the news department, plus the programming people all chipping in on that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11120             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  You raised in your talk today that there are 40 news people, that Newcap has 40 news people all around the province.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11121             Is that right?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11122             MS SPENRATH:  Yes, that is correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11123             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  In your supplementary brief on the other station, Fort McMurray, at page 11, you said you had 28.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11124             MS SPENRATH:  Actually, that is a typographical error.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11125             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  I was wondering if you hired or fired somebody in a real hurry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11126             MS SPENRATH:  Not in Alberta.  We are always short.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11127             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So that is over 27 stations and the two TV.  Is that correct?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11128             MS SPENRATH:  Yes, that is correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11129             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So that adds up to me ‑‑ and here I am at my math again ‑‑ to one‑point‑something, not two, news people per station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11130             MR. MAHEU:  A lot of those stations, if I may, Commissioner Cram, are repeaters.  So when you take a look at the originating stations, the math becomes much better.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11131             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay, give me the math.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11132             MR. MAHEU:  In Grande Prairie, with three people ‑‑ and that is three fulltime equivalents as well.  I think what we are anticipating is that it is going to be the equivalent of three fulltime: obviously a fulltime news director; likely another fulltime radio news person; and then at least two part‑time people working 20 to 30 hours a week.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11133             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So what is the math without the repeaters?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11134             MR. MAHEU:  We will have to go back in and get it.  We would be happy to get that for you, but I don't have it off the top of my head.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11135             We have varying numbers depending on market size.  Obviously we have more in Edmonton than we do in Slave Lake.  But we can add it up ‑‑ unless you have it there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11136             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  You see, based on my very simple math of 40 divided by 27, it didn't make sense that in Fort McMurray you would then have three fulltime FDEs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11137             MR. MAHEU:  Glenda made a good point too.  It sounded kind of flippant but it wasn't.  It is true in the fact that we always need more in Alberta.  This is a wonderful place to do business, but when you talk to business people, not only in radio but throughout the province, finding enough qualified people to be able to get them to work for you is difficult.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11138             In radio news, this is where one of the benefits of having a company like Newcap is that we operate in a number of different provinces, and we are really starting to see ‑‑ and we are starting to do it, where we have to use the resources of our company to bring people up through the ranks.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11139             It is not good enough any more to try to find people that work somewhere else and hire them over.  We are going to have to start creating our own news people, starting them out in smaller markets and being able to let them grow and promote up into some bigger opportunities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11140             We do want to bolster some of our news coverage and our news presence in some markets, because it is a consistent theme that we are following as a company.  As radio becomes more competitive with other non‑traditional media, like the internet and ipods and so on, as Rob mentioned in the opening remarks it has a lot more to do than just music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11141             We think as a company, as a strategy, that spoken word and news and information may become the secret weapon more and more in the future, even on music‑oriented or music‑intensive radio stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11142             That is a big turnaround from what it used to be.  Radio stations cut sports and cut news out of a lot of radio stations, cut the talk out.  I think we are discovering as an industry that if we are going to be relevant and competitive in the future, the things that happen between the records are going to become a lot more important.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11143             So we are looking now everywhere we do business to start to be able to do things to bolster our news and information first and then our spoken word and non‑traditional spoken word programming on some of our stations.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11144             In Grande Prairie we are making that commitment to three fulltime people, but five, six years from now we may have a lot more folks working for us on the air that do a lot more than just play songs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11145             We think that is important.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11146             MS SPENRATH:  And to double back to your question on the math, when we look at Grande Prairie as opposed to say Wainwright, for example, you are dealing with a population of 6,000 people and Grande Prairie has 40,000 people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11147             So just to be able to cover the ground, to get the stories, to get the information back to the people takes more effort.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11148             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Mr. Anderson.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11149             MR. ANDERSON:  What would bring that average down as well to 1.2 is some of our smaller stations, the smaller markets like an Athabascan, High Prairie, just to use one example, you know, we would have only one newsperson there at the moment, and in Alberta there would be three repeaters as well so that brings down that average a bit.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11150             MR. MURRAY:  Excuse me.  The math is, we have about 16 locations in Alberta and so it's about 2.5 per location.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11151             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11152             MR. MURRAY:  But, as I also said, many of them have one because they are in communities of 4,000 and 5,000 population.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11153             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.  What is the repeat frequency of reports?  What are you proposing in terms of how many times is a single report repeated?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11154             MR. MAHEU:  May I ask which type of report you would be referring to?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11155             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  News.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11156             MR. MAHEU:  News.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11157             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11158             MR. MAHEU:  In morning drive for instance it's pretty customary that the news doesn't change very much.  The news has happened and radio stations as a rule report it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11159             But what is important is that you find a way to rewrite or find ways of repackaging and representing existing information to keep it, because some listeners do listen, obviously, to more than one newscast.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11160             So we are going to repeat the stories that are making news, but the generally accepted practice in most radio stations, especially in drive times, is to be able to rewrite those stories two or three times so that if somebody was listening to news on half hour that you could listen to three different newscasts, basically hear the same stories but the approach and the writing would be different.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11161             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  I don't know if they are repeats.  The public affairs program on Sunday morning, is it original programming or is it repeats of what happened during the week or is it more in‑depth, commentaries, opinions?  What will it consist of?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11162             MR. MAHEU:  A little bit of all of that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11163             I will let Rob tell you a little bit more about that program.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11164             MR. MISE:  It's a one hour news magazine long‑form programming which is going to add more choice into the marketplace.  It's kind of a wrap‑up of the whole week's events and activities, from business, hard core news, health sector, agricultural, maybe high school sports, kind of a retrospective of kind of a week in the life of Grande Prairie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11165             That will be of course all locally produced.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11166             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yes.  So there won't be anything brought in from your other Alberta stations at all?


LISTNUM 1 \l 11167             MR. MISE:  Normally not, no.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11168             MR. MAHEU:  The answer is normally not and as a rule not, but there are some things that may happen.  For instance, if the ‑‑ sorry, when the Edmonton Oilers win the Stanley Cup tonight, if we were on the air today obviously we might do part of this week's "Week in Review" that would include some stuff from Edmonton that would be sourced by our Edmonton radio station.  We would tap them for some audio and things like that.  So we try to share on those resources.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11169             But generally speaking that show is pretty much a Grande Prairie focused show every week and it's the kind of show where City Councillors or the Mayor or business leaders, you know, people who are in the community talking about charities, et cetera, that they can get on.  This is kind of public access time presented in kind of a fast‑paced original way on the weekends.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11170             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  I mean, you do have a fair number of Alberta stations, 16 locations, I am assuming your including Lloydminster, the television in Lloydminster in that.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11171             Are you connected by sort of a common news system that everybody can tap into and access what was happening in Lethbridge from Calgary?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11172             MR. MAHEU:  All Anderson is the General Manager of the Alberta Radio Group and he is well versed with how we do things.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11173             MR. ANDERSON:  Basically in the mornings it is handled totally live.  However, we have access to news stories ranging from as far south as Brooks and Blairmore to as far north as Slave Lake, High Prairie and through that area.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11174             So yes, it's not a news network as such, but at any time you are aware of something big happening in any one of those centres that we are in or the communities surrounding the centres we are in, we to have the advantage of tapping that information live and immediately. We don't have to wait for a network report of any sort, it's there if we need it and it's there if somebody in Drumheller thinks, "Well, this should be of interest to somebody in Slave Lake", and then of course that newsperson in the morning would feed it down to Slave Lake.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11175             So yes, we do share.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11176             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Is it a computer system?  For example, the floods last year, people in, I don't know, people in Lethbridge could have been concerned about the floods coming their way.  I don't know the geography that well of Alberta.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11177             So could somebody have hooked into or been able to just from the computer pull up the story from a sister station on flooding?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11178             MR. ANDERSON:  In most cases yes.  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11179             MR. MAHEU:  Yes.  What we try to do is, we try to make the content that we create originally in every market available to other markets.  It's not a mandate.  They don't have to use it.  And we don't do network newscasts in the morning between these radio stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11180             But what we do is, for instance in Edson in the morning show, if there is potential flooding ‑‑ remember last year in Drumheller, you know, the waters were coming up to the edge of the river and there was big concern and people were pumping and sandbagging and everything else, that's a story that a lot of people around the province were obviously interested in and we had regular updates.  We had our news team in Drumheller, Brooks and Stettler working 24/7 on that and they would post to the FTP site actualities, interviews with town officials, emergency preparedness people, et cetera, so that raw actuality, audio was up on the FTP server.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11181             There would also be a stand‑up voicer piece that the reporter would do and it would be updated all the time.  So that if our station in Edson for instance wanted the latest story from what was going on, they would just pull that up off the server, edit it maybe to their own needs, and then be able to say, "Let's go to our Newcap reporter, Joe Blow, live Drumheller.  Joe, what's going on?", and then you would hear the audio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11182             But that is by choice and we think it helps extend the value of what we bring to the province by being in a lot of these smaller markets, that there is news happening that otherwise people wouldn't know about, but it's up to each individual station to decide what they want to run and what is relevant for their audience.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11183             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11184             Now we go back to the 75 percent local.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11185             First, you say 75 percent of your news will be local.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11186             Does that include news, weather, sports?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11187             MR. MAHEU:  That's you, Rob.  You can talk about that.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11188             MR. MISE:  The 75 percent local news is not a reflection on the news, whether or sports.  It is content that is relevant for the Grande Prairie area, City Hall stories, et cetera.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11189             Our Newcap mantra is that we will always lead local, always localized the lead.  In other words, a story of national importance has to be, I guess, executed with kind of a local angle.  An example, if the Ag Minister has certain farm subsidy announcements, we will localize that all the time by getting responses from local farmers, et cetera.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11190             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  No, my question was:  When you say 75 percent of the news will be local, define "news".  Does it include the whole spiel that includes sports and weather or is it just the news portion of that segment, of that spoken word segment.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11191             MR. MISE:  The answer is yes.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11192             MR. MAHEU:  Yes.  If I may, Commissioner Cram, sports is a small part of the total amount of time that we have allowed for news.  That's flexible obviously depending on the time of year and circumstances.  Right now it would certainly take up a little bit more time than it normally would, but generally speaking, you know, three‑quarters of that in a city like Grande Prairie, it would be important for us that when we are doing sport reports that we are talking about the Alberta Junior Hockey League and we are talking about local balls teams, some high school sports.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11193             People who are into the NBA and major league baseball aren't tuning our radio station necessarily to hear that information.  If it's big, if the Blue Jays are into the playoffs or something it's worth a mention, but otherwise they are gone to the internet or they have the local paper for that kind of thing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11194             What we want to try to do when we are doing sports, first and foremost to try to bring something to the table that's a little different and we believe local is the way to go.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11195             Then in terms of the weather, that's pretty much always going to the local.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11196             Then in the newscast itself, pretty much three‑quarters of the news that we do is going to be local stories or stories that are not local but have a local angle, that impact the locality.  As Rob said, we will try to localize those national, regional or international stories whenever we can, and then the balance is made up with the big news of the day around the world or around the country.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11197             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So then when you say 75 percent of the news will be local, that excludes weather and sports?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11198             MS SPENRATH:  Another venue for those opportunities to talk about the weather and the sports is actually in the several updates that we do every day, the information updates.  So we have that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11199             MR. MAHEU:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11200             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  I'm just trying to get a definition.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11201             MR. MAHEU:  Yes.  I'm going to just ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11202             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So we have five minutes and it has three minutes of news, one minute of sports, one minute of weather.  When you say 75 percent will be local, is it of the three minutes or is it of the five minutes?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11203             MR. MAHEU:  Seventy‑five percent of the five minutes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11204             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  All right.  So 75 percent local news means 75 percent of the news, weather, sports segment?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11205             MR. MAHEU:  Correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11206             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11207             And then when you say "local", what do you mean by "local"?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11208             MR. MAHEU:  "Local" means happening in or around the Grande Prairie area or occurring elsewhere but having a major impact or influence on Grande Prairie and area.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11209             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11210             Now, Classic Rock.  How is Classic Rock different from anything else proposed by the other applicants?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11211             MR. MAHEU:  Classic Rock is very different, and in our case we are proposing Classic Hits, which is our format preference and our potential listeners in Grande Prairie's preference.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11212             Commissioner Cram, I just want to make sure I answer your question as specifically as I can.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11213             Are you asking what the difference is between Classic Hits and Classic Rock?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11214             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  No, how you are different from the other applicants.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11215             MR. MAHEU:  Okay.  We are proposing a Classic Hits format and Classic Hits is quite a bit different than Classic Rock.  Classic Hits is largely the top 40 hits and the top 40 songs from the '70s, '80s and '90s, with a little bit of today in there as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11216             Classic Rock ‑‑ and we know that format extremely well because we do it in a number of markets with a great deal of success ‑‑ is largely a Gold‑based format featuring predominantly rock songs.  The main difference between Classic Rock and Classic Hits is Classic Rock is exactly what it says, it's rock.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11217             Classic Hits, on the other hand, because it comes from top 40, it's the top 40 hits from the '70s, '80s and '90s, we know these are the songs that adults 35 to 54 largely grew up with.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11218             And they come from a lot of differences genres.  Inside of Classic Hits you have a little bit of country, you have a little bit of rock, you have a little bit of adult contemporary, traditional top 40, dance.  Those are the kinds of things that really make the Classic Hits format interesting.  It is a big variety format in terms of genres sounds, where Classic rock is focused mainly on rock 'n roll music had it tends to be mainstream or hard.  And that's the difference.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11219             Classic Hits is not a rock format, it's a hits format and Classic Rock is a rock format.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11220             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Your target you say is 18 to 64.  My nephew, who is closer to 18, and I who am, say ‑‑ closer to 50, have different needs.  How are you going to meet those needs?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11221             MR. MAHEU:  If I may clarify, the 18 to 64 demographic, you are quite right, you know, when you are talking about 18 or 50, that's not really a target, that's a family reunion.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11222             So 18 to 64, though, was the research sample that we talked to.  We tried to talk to as wide a group of people as was practical in Grande Prairie, so we talked to people 18 to 64, and inside of that demographic, a wide one, we asked them about eight different formats.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11223             What came back quite clearly was that Classic Hits was the number one choice and the number one format avoid was Classic Hits.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11224             Now, inside of that we know from the research that we have done predominantly that targeting for Classic Hits is people 25 to 54, but generally the real strength of that format is 35 to 54.  So if we were fortunate enough to be able to put this station on the air, we would have a Classic Hits radio station that would be targeted generally at adults 35 to 54.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11225             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And on behalf of Vice‑Chair Arpin, the median age?


LISTNUM 1 \l 11226             MR. MAHEU:  The median age, we did not calculate it in this, but based on our experience in other markets, the median age ‑‑ the real strength for Classic Hits is 34‑54.  The sweet spot in it is 35 to 44.  It spills both ways, but it spills higher more than it spills lower, and I would say the median age would be roughly in that 37 to 39 year old age group.  So half of the audience would be older than 39 and half would be younger than 39.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11227             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  I take it from your talk today that you are not adverse to he licensing of more than one station in Grande Prairie?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11228             MR. MAHEU:  No, not at all.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11229             Actually, when we put our application together first we did the research in the market to see how big of an opportunity is there here.  We did our economic homework as well, but then we did the programming research and we pretty quickly realized that this market is, in our opinion, fairly under served and that the possibility definitely existed that it could support two new commercial entrants.  So when we put our business plan together we really kind of based our business plan in the back of our mind on the idea that there could be two radio stations licensed and we planned accordingly.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11230             So we feel that there definitely is room for a couple.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11231             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  If we did license yourselves and one other, which one would have the greatest impact on your financial projections and which one the least?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11232             MR. MAHEU:  I think the one that would have the biggest impact would be Pattison's application because they already enjoy economies of scale in the marketplace and that gives them ‑‑ if they were to get a second licence it would be great for them, it would be tougher for competitors because they would enjoy economies of scale that others would not enjoy and could use that to their competitive advantage, as anybody would if they were in that position.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11233             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Then likewise OK also?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11234             MR. MAHEU:  Absolutely.  The idea being we believe Classic Hits is a good opportunity.  The other opportunity that is presenting itself in the research is Classic Rock.  The formats are different and they are somewhat distinct.  Although there is a little bit of overlap there is not a ton.  There is room for each one of them.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11235             Many of the applicants are proposing some sort of hybrid of Classic Rock with a little bit of Alternative or Mainstream Rock as well in some cases.  We feel that we would be compatible with any type of Rock licensing in be marketplace and we would be prepared, and our business plan has kind of anticipated that, that there is going to be some competition and we could certainly operate that way.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11236             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11237             Now, these CTD, you talk about the Music Convention, $40,000 a year.  In the delineation breakdown of that you had $3,000 for a merchandise and souvenir table and $1,000 for a website and e‑mail software.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11238             Aren't these really promotion advertising?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11239             MR. MISE:  No, I would say they are not.  We are obviously going to have our own e‑mail systems and everything else, but this would be separate and distinct, used pretty much exclusively for what we are trying to do with the Musicians' Convention on an annual basis.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11240             There are costs associated with this to make it happen and it's a new endeavour.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11241             I'm going to let Rob Mise in just a moment tell you a little bit more about that, but all the money that we propose for the Musicians' Convention and the development of Canadian talent ‑‑ and we have tried to itemize those things as best we could.  We did it in deficiency I believe ‑‑ are necessary and needed and we anticipate this growing as the years go by.  It will start small and we hope it to become a big annual thing that will take place in Northern Alberta.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11242             Rob, if you could just ‑‑ some of those expenses are necessary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11243             MR. MISE:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11244             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Maybe I can just ‑‑ you know that promotion and advertising is ineligible for CTD.  That's where I'm coming from.  So that's why I was asking.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11245             And I was also asking about the merchandise and souvenir table.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11246             MR. MISE:  Right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11247             COMMISSIONER CRAM:   So while you go on, Rob, Mr. Mise, just included that in your answer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11248             MR. MISE:  Sure.  Maybe I will answer that first.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11249             The souvenir table is a not‑for‑profit actual table that is set up with souvenirs like for the actual event.  So there could be shirts, actual sweatshirts or hoodies, but they are specific for people who are attending the festival.  There is no mark‑up on them.  It is straight direct.  There is no profit going to be derived from these things.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11250             Is that the question that you were asking?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11251             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  I'm asking, are these two things not promotion and/or advertising and therefore ineligible for CTD?  That's what I'm asking.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11252             So what kind of merchandise and souvenirs would you have there?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11253             MR. MAHEU:  We would have hats, T‑shirts, hoodies.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11254             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And would it be advertising the station?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11255             MR. MISE:  Not the radio station.  Absolutely not.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11256             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11257             MR. MISE:  It would be advertising the actual physical event, as a take‑home event.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11258             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11259             And the web‑site and e‑mail software?


LISTNUM 1 \l 11260             MR. MISE:  The exact same thing, it would be separate from the radio station that we would have to purchase separately.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11261             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  If we decided they were ineligible, would you propose to redirect monies?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11262             MR. MAHEU:  I think if you determined it was ineligible, we would have to eat the capital cost of that as a business expense.  Our CTD commitment would remain exactly where it is and that money that was deemed ineligible we would pour back into the music festival, or the Musicians' Convention.  If we can bring in another guest speaker or whatever it is that we can do with that money, they we will put it to work that way.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11263             Our goal here is to try to start something in Alberta, especially in Northern Alberta in the Grande Prairie area, that is kind of a miniature of Canadian Music Week.  I know it's a bit of a dream right now, but there are many people in and around the Grande Prairie area and in Northern Alberta that we know are writing songs and making music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11264             I should tell you ‑‑ you probably know, but just in case ‑‑ it is not genre‑specific.  This is wide open to people making country music, rock music, alternative, jazz, whatever music is being made.  It is a very inclusive event.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11265             We are hoping that this begins with small, humble beginnings just like Canadian Music Week did.  I was at the very first record conference.  It was me and about 45 other people and I remember it was all in one room at the Westin.  They had Burton Cummings and Randy Bachman come in.  They were just getting back together back then.  They had the news conference there.  That was the very first one.  Hardly anybody knew about it, it was a one‑day event, and look at it today, it's a week long gigantic celebration and thousands and thousands of people go.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11266             We have high hopes for this.  We think that over a period of time this will get some traction.  Our goal really is, during the first seven years, to babysit it, to fund it, to nurture it, to bring it along, but over the course of that seven years, by the time the seven years is up, we would like to hand it off to somebody.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11267             We will continue to support it and it will always be our baby a little bit, but it was never meant to be our thing.  It's not to promote our radio station.  What it is is something that we can give back to the Canadian music community.  So we will pour that money back in.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11268             If it's ineligible, that's fine, we will find some capital and do that other stuff and we will leave this where it is.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11269             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  On the Music Convention, you talked about a complementary free CD.  Where will it be produced?  Who will produce it?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11270             MR. MISE:  The CD will be produced at a studio in the Grande Prairie area and will be available either for download or for sale at local record stores.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11271             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Not your own studios though?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11272             MR. MISE:  We might make it available there, absolutely.  Sure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11273             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  No, it would not be produced at your own studios?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11274             MR. MISE:  No.  No.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11275             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  In the Music Convention you are talking about a $4,000 scholarship to high school kids and also in the money going to the school board, you are talking about initiatives including scholarships.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11276             Is there a substantial difference between those?


LISTNUM 1 \l 11277             MR. MAHEU:  I will have Rob comment on the $4,000, but the $1,000 scholarships we are doing ‑‑ we are going to do five of those each year ‑‑ are very different.  Those are really going to be awarded to deserving students identified by teachers within the school system that are worthy of this scholarship and we will come up with an appropriate way to get submissions or applications from people and have the teachers closest to the students make those decisions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11278             But at the Music Convention, that $4,000 scholarship is something a little bit different.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11279             MR. MISE:  It is totally separate from the schools, yes, and is available for people who are actually going to be at the convention.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11280             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Available for people who participate in the convention?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11281             MR. MISE:  That is correct, yes.  Students at the convention.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11282             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So sort of like an Award of Excellence?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11283             MR. MISE:  Yes, absolutely.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11284             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Rather than the school ones are sort of more ‑‑


LISTNUM 1 \l 11285             MR. MAHEU:  The school ones might be more based on need, okay?  Again, we are going to try to give the school board as much latitude and discretion there, as long as it is to a deserving music student, but we want to leave ‑‑ our intention really was that it would be need‑based, where the Musicians' Convention will be a little more merit‑based, where there is an aspiring musician, songwriter or singer that needs some help to get them to the next step and $4,000 might make the difference.  It is based on their ability and merit rather than the need.  In the school it's need.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11286             MS SPENRATH:  If I might add on the school board ones, there are band camps held throughout the summers for students in the band programs in Alberta, so you can travel to Red Deer for a week and take in a band program if you happen to be an aspiring band student.  Those are the kinds of the things that the band program would be directed at, separate from the ones Rob is talking about.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11287             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  In the talent contest you talk about part of $9,000 will go to Newcap Radio Distribution.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11288             What is this?


LISTNUM 1 \l 11289             MR. MAHEU:  Well, the Newcap Radio Distribution, we put this in ‑‑ this is part of our presentation on Canadian Talent Development.  It's listed there, but basically what we are trying to do is, we are trying to get the music that is being made from this talent contest out to as many stations as we can.  We have listed it here.  It's more of a benefit.  There is no charge for that.  Like we are not assessing any value to that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11290             The $9,000 that we are proposing there is really to get the studio time and a producer.  I think Newcap Radio Distribution is listed only as a benefit.  There is no charge for that.  Electronic delivery of this type of stuff to all of our stations can happen practically for free anyhow.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11291             So that might be a little bit of a misnomer there.  I'm sorry if we gave you the wrong impression, but there is no charge out of the $9,000 going back to Newcap for that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11292             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  The CTD ‑‑ I think you were using a seven year amount of $525,000, and you referred to the seven year amounts in a lot of this ‑‑ you really mean it will be $525,000 in annual, divided into annual amounts, over a period of seven years, not necessarily the licence term because you may launch in year two of the licence?


LISTNUM 1 \l 11293             MR. MAHEU:  That is very correct, but our intention is to take the $525,000 in annual instalments over seven years, regardless of the licence term, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11294             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Seven consecutive years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11295             MR. MAHEU:  Right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11296             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Mr. Murray, you are the numbers person, aren't you

LISTNUM 1 \l 11297             MR. MURRAY:  Yes, I am.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11298             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yes.  Well, don't worry, you are better than me.  I'm not going to question your numbers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11299             When you did your projections, how much higher were your projections for staffing than it would have been, say, in Regina?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11300             MR. MURRAY:  I don't ‑‑ you are talking about a Regina application?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11301             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  No.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11302             MR. MURRAY:  We don't have anybody in Regina.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11303             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Pick any other city.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11304             MR. MURRAY:  Yes, okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11305             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Pick Halifax.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11306             MR. MURRAY:  Right.  I would say 15 percent, roughly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11307             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Fifteen percent?


LISTNUM 1 \l 11308             MR. MURRAY:  Fifteen, 20 percent, roughly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11309             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  You think that is the bonus you have to pay for getting people to go into Grand Prairie?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11310             MR. MURRAY:  Yes, I think so.  I think Glenda might be able to add some from her experience in ‑‑ some of her stations are Lloydminster, Cold Lake, which is another pretty hot area.  So she could probably give you some ‑‑ we don't want to talk about specific examples of positions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11311             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yes.  No, you don't have to tell me how much Joe Smith is being paid, no.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11312             MR. MURRAY:  Glenda, do you ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11313             MS SPENRATH:  Yes.  Actually, I have gone through in detail Dave's numbers for the salaries for the various positions and they are in keeping with what I believe would be required in Grand Prairie.  They are probably 10 to 15 percent higher than Lloydminster, Cold Lake, which I mean we are a hot economy now but not to the extent quite as Grand Prairie is, but I believe they are reasonable.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11314             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Did you put in any, what would I say, inflationary ‑‑ because if you are licensed you would launch next year.  Did you put anything like that in that 10 to 15 percent?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11315             MR. MURRAY:  Yes.  Yes, the business plan assumes 2007 as the first year.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11316             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.  So then you would be working on that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11317             MR. MURRAY:  Correct, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11318             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Is that just newspeople, Ms Spenrath, or no?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11319             MS SPENRATH:  No, across the board.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11320             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Across the board.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11321             MS SPENRATH:  Yes, all staff.  All staff positions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11322             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  What about commercial space, what was your estimate based on in terms of ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11323             MS SPENRATH:  Again, I keep comparing back to Lloydminster and I know that Grande Prairie isn't drastically different than Lloydminster is as far as the square footage, the cost per square foot of office space.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11324             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  What is it in Lloyd?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11325             MS SPENRATH:  Eighteen‑twenty, in that range.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11326             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  You have proposed one frequency and it may be that we would give you a licence but then, say, find another.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11327             Are there alternatives?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11328             MR. MAHEU:  Yes, there are several really good frequencies in Grande Prairie.  We chose 98.9 because our technical folks took a look at where the most appropriate spot for a tower might be and took a look at the contours, but virtually I think there are four or five frequencies that deliver pretty much the same high‑quality, city‑grade signal over the .5 and 3 millivolt curve.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11329             So although 98.9 is our first choice, there are certainly other alternatives that would be very suitable.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11330             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  With no appreciable impact on your business plan.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11331             MR. MAHEU:  Minimal, no.  No, no impact on the business plan at all and just coverage changes are minimal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11332             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  All right.  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11333             Thank you, Mr. Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11334             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mrs. Cram.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11335             Mrs. Cugini...?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11336             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Good afternoon.  Just a couple of questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11337             Mr. Mise, is that how you pronounce your name?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11338             MR. MISE:  It's Mise.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11339             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Mise.  You said in the opening statement that your Classic Hits station in Halifax is different from your station in Wainwright.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11340             How are they different, first of all, and how different are they from the proposed playlist that was submitted in response to deficiencies on September 28th?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11341             MR. MISE:  Our station in Halifax is a true Classic Hits station which plays absolutely zero current music at all.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11342             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Zero what, I'm sorry?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11343             MR. MISE:  Zero current music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11344             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11345             MR. MISE:  As opposed to our station in Wainwright, Alberta.  We like to be somewhat broader there so we can afford to play some newer music there as well.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11346             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  So this proposed playlist ‑‑ and I apologize.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11347             What does the GCR column mean?  What do those stand for?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11348             MR. MURRAY:  GCR?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11349             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  It's your September 28th response to deficiencies.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11350             MR. MISE:  Oh, that means the Gold Current or Recurrent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11351             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Recurrent?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11352             MR. MISE:  Yes.  A song that has just come off the charts is a Recurrent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11353             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11354             MR. MISE:  So Gold, Current or Recurrent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11355             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  All right.  So this would have more of a balance of those three than your other Classic Hit stations?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11356             MR. MISE:  That is correct.  You may see one or two newer songs ever hour in Grande Prairie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11357             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  That would be true of both Canadian and non‑Canadian artists?


LISTNUM 1 \l 11358             MR. MISE:  For the most part, yes, but we think that there is some outstanding new Canadian music available, so we would probably play a number of great Canadian tracks, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11359             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  But I'm also assuming that that would hold true for all of your Classic Hits format radio stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11360             MR. MISE:  That depends on the marketplace.  In Halifax, as an example, there is an actual station at its current base there called C100 that are playing a lot of these tracks, but in Wainwright, Alberta is kind of a small, standalone station there so it can afford to be a little bit wider there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11361             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11362             MR. MAHEU:  If I may add, Commissioner Cugini, just on what Rob is saying, a lot of those differences in the sound of a Classic Hits station, they are all Classic Hits but they are customized for each market and the competitive environment or the listener research we do in the environment will tell us what kind of recipe we need to do that will get us the best possible impression from the audience.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11363             In terms of current music, although we don't play any current music in Halifax on our Classic Hits station, what we are proposing in Grande Prairie we are probably going to be 5 to 10 percent current because we can be.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11364             Second, we are thinking that most of that current music, or the vast majority of it, is likely to be Canadian.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11365             The reason we are saying that and the reason we would do that, one of the soft spots in the Classic Hits format is Canadian Gold.  There is only so much of it and much of it now, or some of it anyhow ‑‑ not much of it, but certainly a good amount of it is approaching the burn point and in order for this format to be viable and still be able to play hits for people and the songs they grew up with and meet the Canadian content requirements, sometimes you have to morph the format a little bit into something that is away from its true form.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11366             But there is enough good and even great Canadian music out there now that kind of fits that top 40 fun sound of classic hits.  You can play the new Sam Roberts and some Sam Roberts recent stuff and Bedouin Soundclash and bands and songs like that that kind of fit the essence of the format, they sound like they belong.  They are not Gold.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11367             But that would be our plan in Grande Prairie, that we would be a little more current music, maybe 5 to 10 percent current music, and a lot of that would be Canadian so that we can lay off the April Wine, Guess Who and that kind of stuff.  We are going to still play it, but we are going to play it less frequently and kind of trim that list so that the real bottom stuff that you normally wouldn't play unless you absolutely had to doesn't get played.  We would rather focus ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11368             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  You say you can do it in this market as opposed to others because there is less competition?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11369             MR. MAHEU:  Right.  And the competitive environment.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11370             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11371             Mr. Steele, I think you were the one in your opening remarks who talked about the ever‑changing technology and what that is going to do to radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11372             Is there a reason to believe that in Grande Prairie the use of internet radio or downloadable music is any different than it is in the rest of Canada?


LISTNUM 1 \l 11373             MR. STEELE:  No, not at all.  It's typical.  It's happening right across the country in every market.  We are trying to repatriate some listeners back to radio and really trying to make the product better and make it attractive to the local market and focus it on local content as we talked about today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11374             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Do you currently podcast any of your programs on any of your radio stations?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11375             MR. STEELE:  Yes, we do.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11376             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  So you are embracing the technology in other words?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11377             MR. STEELE:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11378             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  All right.  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11379             Thank you, Mr. Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11380             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mrs. Cugini.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11381             Mr. Maheu, you gave Mrs. Cram an answer about the median age of your listeners, but did you tell her if it's a she or a he?

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11382             MR. MAHEU:  The median age remains as I stated, Mr. Vice‑Chair, but the gender split on Classic Hits, as we see it in Grande Prairie and the research shows, it's pretty even.  Actually, in Grande Prairie it is slightly more male than female, but not a whole lot and it's 35 to 54.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11383             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Now, either you or Mr. Steele have two minutes to tell us why Newcap in Grande Prairie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11384             MR. MAHEU:  Well, thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11385             We can tell there is a hockey game because we used to get five minutes.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11386             MR. MAHEU:  So we will be very brief.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11387             Thank you very much for the opportunity.  It has been our pleasure.  Thank you for your questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11388             Why Newcap in Grande Prairie?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11389             Very simply, we believe we have done our homework for Grande Prairie.  We have gone in, we have conducted very good research, we have spent the time, energy and money to find out what people want in that marketplace, and clearly Classic Hits is the format opportunity that Grande Prairie listeners want most and we have the experience to do that.  We do it in a number of markets, we do it extremely well I would like to say, and get great reaction and great result and we would do the same thing in Grande Prairie.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11390             I believe that we, as a company, have put together an excellent business plan and we bring the resources to bear, the resources necessary to create excellent radio in that marketplace and we can do it very quickly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11391             We were talking we have planned this for 2007 if we were approved.  Our goal would be to get this radio station on in three to four months, as quickly as we possibly can.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11392             We have committed $525,000 in Canadian Talent Development, to be spaced out $75,000 a year for seven years.  We believe it will do a lot of good in the community and for the development of Canadian talent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11393             I guess, you know, we operate as a company in a number of markets, small, very small, some of them mid‑market and some of them large and, as we have heard today, we are in many communities throughout Alberta.  We know this province extremely well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11394             Listening this morning, we have been characterized as a company as a big guy.  You know, we like to think of ourselves as a big little guy, if we could.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11395             The big part of it is good because we believe it provides the resources and the expertise to do a really good job.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11396             But we also think of ourselves as a little guy, because you are going to hear things about national radio companies and head office and it's just not true.  We operate each and every one of our radio stations ‑‑ one of our general managers is here today from Edmonton, Randy Lemay, and he would tell you if he was sitting here now, the mandate that he gets is the same one every operator, even general manager gets in our company, and that is:  Please, operate the radio station like you own it.  That is the way we do business.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11397             So in every market that we are in we are the local radio station.  People who live in that city, work in that city.  And yes, they work for Newcap and they are part of something a little bit bigger, but in that market it's their radio station and we operate it that way.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11398             We would do exactly the same thing in Grande Prairie.  So we can be the big little guy and we think that our experience and our resources combined will do an excellent job in those markets.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11399             We would very much like your approval for this new FM station in Grande Prairie.  We love that market, we want to be there, and you have our promise, as always, that if we are approved for this licence we will do a good job and make you proud.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11400             So thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11401             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Steele, Mr. Maheu, Mrs. Spenrath, gentlemen, thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11402             We will move to the next item.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11403             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 11404             THE CHAIRPERSON:  We will take a 5‑minute break so the people have a chance to get set up.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1520 / Suspension à 1520

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1529 / Reprise à 1529

LISTNUM 1 \l 11405             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Madam Secretary...?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11406             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11407             We will now proceed with Item 4 on the Agenda, which is an Application by OK Radio Group Ltd. for a licence to operate an English‑language FM commercial radio programming undertaking in Grande Prairie.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11408             The new station would operate on frequency 99.1 megahertz, Channel 256C1, with an average effective radiated power of 66,000 watts, maximum effective radiated power of 100,000 watts/antenna height of 281 metres.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11409             The applicant has recently submitted to the CRTC clarification relating to its intended course of action for the proposed radio programming undertaking under different scenarios involving the possible acquisition of the Alberta assets of OK Radio Group Ltd. by Rogers Broadcasting Limited.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11410             Appearing for the applicant is Mr. Roger Charest, who will introduce his colleagues.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11411             You will then have 20 minutes to make your presentation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11412             Mr. Charest...?

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

LISTNUM 1 \l 11413             MR. CHAREST:  It is nice to have you in Edmonton.  Good afternoon. Mr. Chair, Members of the Commission and Commission staff.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11414             My name is Roger Charest and I am President of the OK Radio Group.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11415             To my immediate right is Stu Morton.  He is my partner and the Chief Operating Officer of our company.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11416             To Stu's right is the Mercury application team.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11417             First is Sam Lowe, the Technical Director for CFGP‑FM, known as SUN FM.  Sam was born in the Peace River Country and has been in Grande Prairie radio since 1980 and with our station since 1988.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11418             Beside Sam is another SUN FM veteran, Murray Driver.  He is the General Sales Manager.  Murray is a Grande Prairie native, has been with Grande Prairie since 1982.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11419             Next to Murray is the person who drove this application and who will centre our hearing team today.  I had quarterback in there.  We had to change it.  So he will centre the team today.  Tom Bedore was the General Manager of the station when we acquired it from Rogers and has continued in that function.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11420             The three provide a strong management core, with roots in the station deeper than any owners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11421             Next to Tom is Dave Sawchuk.  Dave started his radio career in Grande Prairie and was Program Director for SUN FM before going to Victoria.  Dave has spent the past two years immersed in Rock programming at OK Radio's two Rock stations in Victoria.  He will return to Grande Prairie to apply this knowledge later this fall.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11422             Beside Dave is Katie O'Connor, a 10‑year SUN FM employee, who is a Sales Executive with SUN FM.  Katie has been in charge of our plans for promotion and community involvement in developing Mercury.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11423             Next to Katie is Sarah Morton, who is the Operations Manager for Sonic FM in Edmonton.  Sarah and her team were responsible for the successful launch of the station and the success of our Canadian Talent Development initiative there, the Band of the Month.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11424             On June 7th, the Commission requested that representatives of Rogers Radio be present to answer any questions that you might have, and in the second row you will see Gary Miles, the Chief Executive Officer of Rogers Radio and Alain Strati, Vice‑President of Regulatory Affairs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11425             Beside Alain is Dave Rahn, President of SBR Creative who conducted our research.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11426             Now I would like to ask you, Tom, to present his team's vision of a new rock station for Grande Prairie.  I would like to point out that the folder we provided you contains a copy of our opening remarks, as well as some other material that we will refer to in this presentation or during the question period.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11427             Tom...?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11428             MR. BEDORE:  Thanks, Roger.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11429             Good afternoon, Mr. Chair and Members of the Commission.  We are here today to present our application for an exciting new Rock station we call "Mercury".  Our decision to apply for a new FM licence in Grande Prairie was made in July of 2004.  The application was filed with the Commission in November of that year, with the assumption it would trigger a call for applications.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11430             Today we will tell you what led us to file that application to bring additional service to Grande Prairie; about the research that helped us choose the format; and about Mercury, the station we propose.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11431             When I was hired as the General Manager of CFGP in 1990 there were two AM radio stations in the market, licensed to Monarch Broadcasting and Rogers Broadcasting.  Many of the 25 men and women at the radio station have worked there for over 15 years and our panel is presenting this application on their behalf.  They see this as an important opportunity to add to their history of service, as well as providing them with a chance to develop their careers in Grande Prairie.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11432             CFGP‑AM was Northern Alberta's first radio station, serving all of the Peace country with a wide range of programming, eventually becoming a full‑service AM station playing a variety of Oldies and current music while the other station in town played Country music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11433             A map showing Alberta's Peace Country is in your package and, as you can see, it's up there on the screen.  It is the area in the bottom left corner that is shaded.  That's our home.  That's the Peace country.  You see the Oilers logo up top.  The entire map is actually Oilers country.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11434             In 1996, we were approved to go to the FM dial and we successfully re‑launched the station as SUN FM.  SUN FM moved to a Pop, Rock and Adult format, with a focus on Contemporary music, playing every kind of music except Country which our competitor CJXX plays.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11435             The research that we conducted for this hearing shows clearly that the majority of Grande Prairie residents turn to us for news and information programming, more than twice as many as tune to CJXX.  There is a reason for this.  They know that when needed we have responded with continuous coverage:  whether the event is a tornado, a power outage, a lost child or fund‑raising for a community project, we report several times each hour until the job is done.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11436             This approach has been successful for us.  We receive tuning and revenue based on this quality of service.  If you don't like Country music but you do want local service and the best of today's Pop and Rock in Grande Prairie, SUN FM is the best choice available.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11437             In my time in Grande Prairie, the economy has grown and radio in the market has benefited from this growth with substantial increases over the last five to seven years.  The economy continues to grow all over Alberta, and particularly here in Grande Prairie.  The predictions for ongoing growth in retail sales and personal income have made it clear to us that the market was ready for new stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11438             We were also well aware that with such a broad format on SUN FM there was no way that we could completely satisfy the music needs of all the people who listen to us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11439             In other markets, Rock, CHR and Adult Pop fans each have their own station with little overlap in music.  In Grande Prairie, SUN FM listeners have to put up with some of the other kinds of music before hearing the music they really prefer.  Essentially, they settle for our music format.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11440             Commonsense, as well as the telephone, e‑mail and informal comments that all of us receive from listeners, told us that it was time for SUN FM to add a sister station that would serve one of these constituencies while SUN FM concentrated on another.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11441             To test our theories, we asked SBR Creative to do research for us.  Here to discuss their findings is Murray Driver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11442             MR. DRIVER:  We asked SBR to do two things to help us determine the kind of station to bring to Grande Prairie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11443             First was, to review residents' radio listening habits and determine their level of satisfaction with the local stations, including music, news and information;

LISTNUM 1 \l 11444             Second, was to determine the music/format preferences for a new Grande Prairie station.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11445             The research reinforced our feeling that SUN FM's success was a result more of great news, information, community involvement and personalities in our local programming and less because of the music format.  While respondents were generally quite satisfied with the level of local radio information available, twice as many of them turned to our station as the source of news and information over our competitor.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11446             When it comes to music, country fans were quite satisfied with the music choices available to them, but SUN FM listeners were significantly less satisfied.  Seventy‑five percent indicated that they find themselves using other music sources for their favourite music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11447             One‑third of SUN FM's listeners indicated that they listened to the station because musically there was nothing better available.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11448             When respondents were asked what kinds of music were available in Grande Prairie radio, they identified SUN FM as providing some older Rock, '70s and '80s Rock, '90s and today's Rock, today's hits and Soft Rock and AC, but the general perception is that SUN FM concentrates in two main areas, playing a lot of today's hits and, secondly, today's Rock and little of the other kinds of music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11449             The SBR research demonstrates that in particular there are three kinds of Rock that listeners want most, today's and '90s Rock, '70s and '80s Rock and Older Rock.  When we cross‑tested the interest in various kinds of music, it became clear that these three styles of Rock are quite compatible with each other.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11450             We went on to ask people whether they turned to sources other than radio to find the music that they want.  Eighty percent of those who preferred today's and '90s Rock indicated that they do so, which was the highest of any of the genres that we tested.  For older Rock fans the figure was 78 percent; and for '70s and '80s Rock fans the figure was 68 percent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11451             To outline how we propose to meet this need is Dave Sawchuk.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11452             MR. SAWCHUK:  Clearly our own research, our understanding of the audience we serve, and the research of nearly every other applicant at this hearing, demonstrates there is a strong desire for a Rock music format for Grande Prairie.  Although some of the applicants have applied for primarily Gold‑based formats, we believe from our research, from talking to Rock music fans on a daily basis, and from the many letters of support for our application, there is a larger appetite for today's Rock music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11453             While Gold‑based music formats are very attractive to older Rock fans, we know that the median age in Grande Prairie was 29.7 in 2001, compared to the Alberta figure of 35 and the national average of 37.6.  The second chart in your package illustrates this.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11454             The City's own 2005 Census reported that fully 75 percent of the population is under 45 years of age, as you can see from the third chart in your package.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11455             Mercury will provide a mix of current and Classic Rock music that reflects the tastes of the young, blue‑collar men and women who form a large part of the Peace country population.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11456             Sixty percent of our music will be post‑2000.  Half of that 60 percent will be current releases from the past 18 months.  We will play the current releases of established Rock bands like Pearl Jam, Green Day, Nickelback, Sam Roberts and the Foo Fighters, mixed with music from emerging artists like Wolfmother, Mobile, The Arcade Fire and The Arctic Monkeys.  This will give a chance to new and emerging Canadian artists to be heard.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11457             Mercury will also pay special attention to Classic Rock bands and artists, who are still actively releasing music, artists like Neil Young, Inxs, Def Leppard and The Rolling Stones, who, believe it or not, have all of released music in the past 18 months.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11458             The other half of our post‑2000 music will come from the years 2000 to 2004, with artists like The Red Hot Chili Peppers, 3 Doors Down, Maroon 5, Coldplay, Our Lady Peace and The White Stripes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11459             The remaining 40 percent of our playlist will consist of the best Rock music from the '7Os, '8Os and '90s, starting with Classic Rock artists like Led Zeppelin, Rush, Aerosmith and Queen.  To this we will add artists such as The Police, Van Halen, The Tragically Hip and U2.  These are artists who emerged in the '8Os.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11460             Our '90s artists will include the best music from the grunge era:  Soundgarden, Nirvana and Bush, as well as Canadian artists like The Tea Party, Sloan, Colin James and Big Sugar.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11461             Most importantly, Mercury will focus on a musical attitude.  We will air up‑tempo, guitar‑driven rock music 24 hours a day, an attitude that fits the young, vibrant culture of the Peace country.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11462             While it's more difficult to find sufficient catalogue to reach a high level of Canadian content on a pure Classic Rock or Classic Hits station, we won't have that problem as we will be drawing our playlists from a catalogue of about 40 years of music.  With the number of great Canadian acts from all eras, but especially the past seven years, we are confident that our proposed 40 percent Canadian content will be easy to achieve.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11463             And we won't just play great music sweeps.  Our listeners will have a number of music features.  The emphasis will be on input from our listeners through "Rock's Most Wanted", on new and independent Rock music on "The Young and the Restless", on Rock's history in "The Mercury Rock and Roll Retrospective" and on Aboriginal Rock and talk on our four‑hour Sunday evening program "Asani".

LISTNUM 1 \l 11464             This show will talk directly to Aboriginal people in the Peace country about community events, success stories, opportunities and the Rock music created by aboriginal people.  Our plan is to design this show, of course, so that it will also be of interest to the population at large.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11465             We also intend to build upon SUN FM's strength as a news source for Grande Prairie.  We will hire three new full‑time people to supplement SUN FM's four news staff, as well as hiring a part‑time reporter specifically for the North Peace. The new Mercury reporter‑announcers will coordinate with our existing newsroom to avoid duplication and to ensure more comprehensive coverage.  They will be the voices of news on the station, ensuring a different approach to news, as well as providing lifestyle information for our audience.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11466             This enlarged newsroom, combined with our new reporter in the North Peace and our existing newsroom in Fort McMurray, will result in more comprehensive coverage of Northern Alberta for both Grande Prairie and Fort McMurray.  This larger group will allow us to develop specialized reporters in the resource industries and Aboriginal affairs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11467             Not only will Mercury provide an additional news source, but the news on SUN FM will improve beyond its already high standard.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11468             We decided to beta test Mercury on the internet and have been streaming Mercury FM since April 21st.  Quite frankly, we have been amazed by the reaction from our efforts.  From the 21st of April to the 15th of June we have had 13,225 listening sessions to Mercury online, with an average stay from each visit of 52 minutes in April, climbing to 73 in May and 111 in June.  Over the 56 days we have had a total of 17,968 hours tuned to a station that is only available on the internet.  This shows how a small‑town radio station can provide competition to the many well‑funded music sources on satellite and the internet.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11469             Here to talk about our Canadian Talent Development proposals is Sarah Morton.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11470             MS MORTON:  Our approach to Canadian Talent Development is based on a combination of funding and on‑air initiatives.  When we launched our Edmonton Modern Rock station in April last year, a centrepiece of our efforts was our Band of the Month initiative.  Band of the Month offers much needed promotional support and on‑air exposure to working local bands and musicians, through a combination of feature airplay of their music, a headline show at a local venue, a mini‑bio on‑air feature, and a dedicated page on our website.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11471             Band of the Month has had a significant impact on the Edmonton music community in a short period of time and we intend to initiate this program on Mercury with Grande Prairie artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11472             In Grande Prairie, we propose to invest $50,000 annually in the development of Canadian talent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11473             $5,000 will go to FACTOR, and the organization has agreed to earmark this amount for Alberta Artists.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11474             $25,000 will go to the Alberta Recording Industries Association to support their programs for new and emerging Alberta artists.  For the first time, ARIA will be able to offer its unique networking program for musicians outside of Calgary and Edmonton.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11475             In addition, we will devote $20,000 to Rock the Peace.  This initiative has evolved since we filed the application.  Originally, we proposed to stage our own contest and create a compilation CD of the winners.  However, last year a new talent contest was started in Grande Prairie called "Peace Starts at Home".

LISTNUM 1 \l 11476             Over 20 bands from the Grande Prairie area entered the contest this year, reflecting the large talent pool in our area.  We plan to partner with Chris Thiesen, the creator of "Peace Starts at Home", and will award the money to the winners for the creation of a compilation CD.  We believe that this slightly revised approach will have more benefit to the artists, while leveraging a developing local initiative.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11477             Yet, we will take the contest further.  We will work with the two key concert promoters in Grande Prairie, creating opportunity for each of the "Peace Starts at Home" winners to open for headlining performers at local live venues.  These bands will share the stage with artists like Theory of a Deadman, Nickelback, Bryan Adams and other Canadian and international stars.  Mercury and SUN FM will offer promotion to these shows, creating awareness and encouraging support for our local talent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11478             In addition, we guarantee airplay on Mercury for these bands and will produce mini‑bios about each of the winners.  We will work with our Rock station in Fort McMurray and with Sonic FM in Edmonton to provide further opportunities for these Grande Prairie artists and create a flow of new talent between each of our three Northern Alberta markets.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11479             Here to talk about how Mercury will impact the Grande Prairie community is Katie O'Connor.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11480             MS O'CONNER:  One of the hallmarks of SUN FM is our involvement in the community.  In our application we outlined a number of initiatives that we have undertaken at SUN FM and I would like to underline the centrepiece of our efforts "Kev's Kids".

LISTNUM 1 \l 11481             I had a role in helping our morning man, Kevin Albers, raise almost half a million dollars to help children in the Peace country.  When "Kev's Kids" was first started in 2002, Kevin asked our listeners to help.  Now it's not necessary.  Companies, sports teams and other groups of people and individuals raise money for "Kev's Kids" all on their own.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11482             Mercury will continue this history of service.  We will develop a series of vignettes called "Peace Country's Young Achievers", featuring the positive accomplishments of young people from our region.  Our goal will be to provide positive role models for youth in a region that has been plagued by the drugs and violence that rapid economic growth sometimes brings.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11483             We also have found a new project to get behind.  "The DiverseCity Project" is a new program introduced this year by the City of Grande Prairie.  It is designed to deal with the issues of racism and discrimination in Grande Prairie and area.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11484             Mercury will play a key role in advancing this work.  We have a multifaceted plan that we have been working on with a number of people in Grande Prairie, but primarily Someh Niengro who is the DiverseCity Project Coordinator for the Grande Prairie and District Multicultural Association.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11485             We will develop and air a program called "Words Of Peace On Mercury".  We will produce vignettes that will air at least 10 times per week every week.  They will tell real stories of racism and discrimination by people in our community who have experienced it.  They will tell the stories of the disenfranchised in Grande Prairie, including Aboriginal people, the gay and lesbian community and the homeless.  They are already part of Mercury on the internet.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11486             We will also support an event called "Homeless for a Night" that will invite people to experience spending a night outside as a homeless person.  We will broadcast live from this 24‑hour event.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11487             We will also be the major sponsor of the Heritage Festival in Grande Prairie, which celebrates multiculturalism.  Picking up on the lessons learned from our sister station, CKER‑FM in Edmonton, we will celebrate Grande Prairie's cultural mosaic and try to make the event one of the most important tourist attractions in our city.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11488             "Kev's Kids" was a small idea that has grown into becoming one of Grande Prairie's favourite charities in only four years.  We are confident we can have a similar impact on the issues associated with cultural diversity in the Grande Prairie area with the plans that we have for Mercury.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11489             MR. BEDORE:  CFGP has a heritage of service going back to 1937.  In the 16 years I have been the station's General Manager, it has been my pleasure, under the ownership of both Rogers Broadcasting and OK Radio, to continue this tradition.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11490             The 25 women and men at SUN FM are constantly on the lookout for community involvement where we can make a difference.  Our strong management team, with deep roots in the city, knows how to provide radio that meets local needs.  The daily feedback that comes from these roots shows that people appreciate the efforts we make.  This on‑the‑ground knowledge is confirmed by our research.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11491             It is time to add new radio choices to the dial in Grande Prairie.  Two local FM stations serve this market of almost 80,000 people.  Markets of similar size have more stations.  Grande Prairie's role as a retail sales centre for Northern Alberta means that the business community will support new choices.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11492             The SUN FM team wants to remain a vibrant part of our community, continuing to provide the services that Peace country people have come to depend upon.  Smaller communities like Grande Prairie will feel the sting of the new technologies like iPods, satellite radio and cellphone music downloads earlier than larger centres.  Our residents will have as many music formats available to them as the people of Edmonton, Calgary, Toronto, even Los Angeles or New York City, from the sky, over their cellphone or through their computers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11493             We believe that our application will meet the demand of Rock fans for their own station, one that is constructed to meet the needs of local residents through music, strong news and information, and involvement in the development of local and regional talent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11494             The fact we already have an infrastructure here means that we can devote resources to news, programming and community reflection rather than to copywriters, traffic managers, accountants and other administrative functions. The $3.3 million we budgeted for programming over the seven‑year term is in addition to the benefits that come to the station from an existing newsroom.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11495             Mr. Chair, Murray, Sam and I have worked at CFGP for a combined 60 years of service.  Our goal has not changed, it is to provide the best radio service possible to our community, reaching as many people as possible.  In an era with increased competition from myriad sources, we need to provide additional specialized program formats to have a chance to remain relevant.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11496             We would be pleased to answer any questions you might have.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11497             Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11498             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Bedore.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11499             Before going to the questions I want to specify that we will do all the interrogatories, even if it has to go past 5:00.  We will try to limit ourselves to close around that time, but I will not stop the hearing because it would not be fair for you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11500             MR. DRIVER:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11501             THE CHAIRPERSON:  You are prepared and you are here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11502             Mr. Langford will initiate the questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11503             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  If we go past 5 o'clock ‑‑

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11504             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  ‑‑ there will be 11 purple moons in the sky tonight.  I can guarantee you we will wrap this up in short order, but with a complete hearing.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11505             My first question is going to go to either Gary Miles or Alain Strati.  I'm going to ask you one question, then I'm going to ask you not to answer any other questions, and then at the end of this I'm going to ask you the same question I'm going to ask you now.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11506             Poor transcriber on that one.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11507             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  It is clear, it is common knowledge that Rogers wants back in I guess.  This is kind of like Elizabeth Taylor marrying Richard Burton over and over again, in and out and in and out.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11508             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So we may be trading Roger for Rogers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11509             My question to the representatives from Rogers is ‑‑ and I put this seriously:  Will you be bound by all of the commitments made today and all of the commitments made earlier in writing by the applicant in this proceeding, should you be successful in purchasing the OK Radio assets?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11510             MR. MILES:  The answer is yes, we will and we have identified that in several of our applications that the Commission will be reviewing in hearings to come.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11511             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Right.  But it's nice to hear it from you personally.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11512             MR. MILES:  I understand.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11513             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  It will be interesting to hear whether the answer is the same at the end.  We always like to give people an escape route here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11514             Fine.  Having set that side, let's turn to the business at hand.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11515             I want to say, gentlemen, that I think your application is very, very complete.  I must say that of all the applications here.  Whether it's our new form, we could take a little credit for it, I don't know, but the supplementary briefs, the applications seem to be really good order and I think that's great because it enables us to focus our questions on just the key elements we have.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11516             You raised a couple of changes in CTD and we will get to that a little later, but it enables me to focus pretty clearly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11517             I will say that I think the tone this morning and in your application was very bullish.  You seem to be very bullish on a market you know well.  Since you are so bullish on Grande Prairie, I would like you to tell me how many stations you think that market could absorb.  How many new stations?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11518             MR. BEDORE:  Mr. Commissioner, I will turn that question over to Murray Driver, who is responsible for the business end of the application.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11519             I will tell you, when we first thought about applying for a new radio station and when putting the application together, it was for one new radio station, but there is no question the economy has changed since then.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11520             Murray, maybe I will pass it to you right now and you can help out with that one.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11521             MR. DRIVER:  Thank you, Tom.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11522             Commissioner, Langford, I'm happy to tell you that Grande Prairie is ready for more than one radio station, there is no question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11523             When we started this application process, we started this two years ago, so kind of the stuff that is in our application is very different than what the reality is today.  We felt that there was definitely room for a radio station when we started and perhaps at that point we were even on the cusp of being ready for two.  But when we put the forecast together, the plan that we had, or the estimates we did for fiscal 2008 I'm certain have already been achieved in the marketplace in fiscal 2006.  So the growth has been dramatic.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11524             Before I answer exactly what I think the market can handle, there are a couple of other issues that will kind of play into that, and one of them is that there is before the Commission an application by Peace River Broadcasting to put a rebroadcaster in the Saddle Hills.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11525             Geographically the Saddle Hills is where we have our tower and a rebroadcaster in the same location with the same power will certainly have a very strong signal in Grande Prairie.  That is going to impact Grande Prairie's market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11526             Their application says something about $200,000 roughly I think it is that they anticipate generating in additional revenue in the Grande Prairie market with that tower.  So that is going to take a little bite out of it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11527             I think a format like the Christian Music format would have less impact on the market certainly than any of the mainstream applications would have.  A licence like that could be added without having a really significant impact on the marketplace.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11528             So what does that leave?  I think it clearly leaves room for two more licences in the marketplace.  Those licences could be very healthy if given to the incumbent broadcasters because economies of scale make that work very well.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11529             If you were so bold ‑‑ maybe I am too bold to say this ‑‑ to even consider the third mainstream licence, if we got one of those three I think we could make it work.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11530             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So let me just get it right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11531             Certainly, two plus a possible rebroad, should it be licensed, plus the specialty Gospel music station, and possibly even three.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11532             Is that your answer?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11533             MR. DRIVER:  I agree.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11534             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11535             Just on a tiny, kind of microscopic view of that, how do you rate this Crude application?  "Crude" is the name, not the game.  It seems an odd mix.  We will get an opportunity to talk to them, but it is kind of a mixture almost of community and commercial.  It is low‑power, but it is a commercial sound.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11536             Do you think we should rate that as ‑‑ I ask you this particularly because you are in the market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11537             MR. DRIVER:  Right.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11538             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Do you think we should rate that the same way we would rate Newcap's application or any of the other full commercial applications or should we look at it somewhat differently?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11539             MR. DRIVER:  From a financial perspective?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11540             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Yes, of course.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11541             MR. DRIVER:  I think that any application like that that is playing a mainstream format and has a full inventory of commercial airtime is going to have a large impact on the marketplace.  If they are good broadcasters and they put together a really good format, the community is not going to distinguish between them and 100,000 watt broadcaster.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11542             They are going to have an impact in the community for sure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11543             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thank you for that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11544             Now, let's take your bullishness a little bit further, one step further, because you are very bullish on your abilities to earn revenues I see as well.  I notice that you are looking at close to $20 million over seven years.  That's where you were when you put this application together anyway.  The only other person that is up there with you is the other incumbent, the Pattison Group.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11545             MR. DRIVER:  Yes.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11546             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Most of the others seem to be well, well below that in their seven‑year projections.  One of them is close, but the rest are fairly well below it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11547             Are you just better or are you just optimistic?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11548             Explain this to me if you can.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11549             MR. DRIVER:  Commissioner Langford, we know the market.  There is just no question.  Grande Prairie, there is no local television in Grande Prairie so we only have a rebroadcast from CFRN.  And they do take some revenue out of the market with that TV property.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11550             The newspaper, like most newspapers, is becoming less relevant in people's lives because we don't have time.  We are a really busy community and people need to get their information and their entertainment somewhere else.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11551             So it's a growing community, people are moving there to work there.  The median age in Grande Prairie is dropping because young people are moving in there to work.  And they are finding work.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11552             Housing is hard to find.  I mean, we are trying to hire a copywriter right now and we are having a dickens of the time finding an apartment for is young fellow to move into.  So it looks as though this is going to go on for a while.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11553             I mean, I was in Grand Prairie in 1980 and I clearly remember what happened in the community when the oil prices went in the toilet ‑‑ pardon my expression ‑‑ it was really hard on the community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11554             But we don't see that now because it seems like Grande Prairie has come of age.  It has become a retail trade centre for Northern Alberta.  It really has grown up.  So now it's ready.  It needs more radio stations, it needs more diversity in what is available to the residents there and it can support it financially.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11555             If from no other research, just from my own employment in the industry for 25 years in Grande Prairie, I see that clearly that it's ready and it can handle that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11556             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Well, Commissioner Cram as made something of a kind of foster child of the whole salary and cost of living issue, so if she has questions I will just leave that with her and she can come at you later.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11557             MR. DRIVER:  Okay.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11558             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  She is swatted up for that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11559             To get back, though, to your $20 million revenue figure, are the others wrong or why would they be understating it?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11560             I mean, look, you are good broadcasters, but some of the other applicants are really good broadcasters too, so why are they so much lower than you?  I just don't quite get it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11561             MR. DRIVER:  I guess the only way I can answer that question is to put the numbers on the table of what the reality of our business is in Grande Prairie.  I guess that' appropriate to do at this point, we are looking for another licence.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11562             The Grande Prairie market will do more thank $9 million, or very close to $9 million next fiscal year.  You know, it will be within a whisker of $9 million by the time we finish fiscal 2006.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11563             So that answers the questions for all of the other applicants where it's at.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11564             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Well, it's nice to give them a hand.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11565             MR. DRIVER:  Sure.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires


LISTNUM 1 \l 11566             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I see scribbling in the audience for the first time today I will tell you.  The Blackberries are working, yes.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11567             MR. DRIVER:  The rapid growth, like we have seen growth in the double digits.  If I go and talk to the Chrysler dealer ‑‑ now there are two because there is so much business there ‑‑ they experience 40 percent growth in their business year‑over‑year.  Forty percent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11568             A standalone audio visual store, you know, 36 percent growth year‑over‑year for his business.  He is competing with Future Shop and Visions and Wal‑Mart and Costco.  It doesn't matter.  And I don't think we want to blindly race into the future think this is never going to end, but there is a certainty that this economy is strong for several years to come.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11569             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Well, we love a little indiscretion here at the Commission, so I thank you for that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11570             Let's look at the other side of it, expenses.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11571             You spoke in your opening statement about the synergies of working with an existing station and you have mentioned that as well in your supplementary brief and earlier filings.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11572             Can you just flesh that out a little?  I mean, what are we saving here in terms of expenses?  How are you going to operate these two stations, should you be successful here, in the sense of saving money?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11573             MR. BEDORE:  Well, for one thing, both radio stations will be in the same building.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11574             As far as personnel goes, we will have one general manager, we will have one sales manager, we will have ‑‑ the creative department we have currently will remain the came.  Undoubtedly we won't add a new creative writer.  We can handle it with the three‑person department we have right now, traffic manager, accountant, receptionist, other office staff.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11575             So there are a variety of positions that we are going to save.  We will be able to share the costs of those positions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11576             Where we won't be saving will be in programming.  We will have a new news staff, we will have a new programming team.  But those are the key areas that we are going to be saving.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11577             MR. CHAREST:  Engineering.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11578             MR. BEDORE:  Engineering.  I'm sorry, Sam.  You are very important

LISTNUM 1 \l 11579             MR. CHAREST;  He works like two people, that's the reason.  You should see him go.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11580             MR. BEDORE:  We need you.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11581             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Never volunteer, Sam.  I have warned you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11582             Okay, then let move to news.  You moved it to news.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11583             That's where you won't be saving you said, so you have four people working on the news in the building now, you are going to bring three more in and then you are going to have kind of half person ‑‑ I always like the concept of half a person out there gathering news ‑‑ somewhere out in the region.  So let's deal with the seven in‑house, if we can.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11584             I got the impression that the were sort of going to be working separately, when I read your supplementary brief, that they would be kind of trying to appealed to the demographic and the listeners of the different sounds, but then ‑‑ who was reading page 8?  I don't have page 7, sorry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11585             Anyway, I will read from your opening remarks today at the bottom of page 8:

"This enlarged newsroom combined with our new reporter in the North Peace..."

LISTNUM 1 \l 11586             That is the half man, half nothing:


"... and our existing newsroom in Fort McMurray will result in a more comprehensive coverage of Northern Alberta for both Grande Prairie and Fort McMurray.  This larger group will allow us to develop specialist reporters in the resource industries and Aboriginal affairs."

LISTNUM 1 \l 11587             That all sounds wonderful out of context, but it doesn't seem to fit with what I thought I was reading in your written submission.  I'm I'm not saying one it better than the other, but they seem different.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11588             So have you moved away from the notion of kind of two separate entities doing two separate newscasts to a larger group that includes not only the seven and a half in the one building or outside of it plus Fort McMurray.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11589             I need some help on exactly what news is going to look and sound like.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11590             MR. BEDORE:  Sure.  We haven't really moved away from our original intention, which was to have one newsroom where all seven full‑time employees will be located.  The existing four people on SUN FM will continue to anchor the SUN FM news, sports and weather.  They will be the voices of news on SUN FM.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11591             The three new people we bring onboard for Mercury will be the voices for Mercury, the news, sports and weather.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11592             Each of these seven people ‑‑ and this is the one area that I am particularly excited amount ‑‑ one portfolio that I hold at the radio station in addition to being General Manager is News Director.  I have been for several years.  The opportunity to have a seven‑person newsroom in our market is quite a luxury and I'm really looking forward to that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11593             In looking at what we could do with seven people, I felt that probably the best way to go would be to have each of these people, in addition to their anchoring responsibilities, to be a reporter focusing on one of the key areas of interest to our listeners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11594             So we will have a reporter who will specialize in the oil and gas industry; we will have another reporter who will deal with the multicultural and the aboriginal community; another one to deal with sports, and on and on.  So each one of these people will have an area of focus.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11595             When they report, for example the reporter who specializes in the oil and gas industry, when he or she files a report, that report could be aired on both radio stations, it could be a different report for each of the two radio stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11596             So that is really where we see one of the great advantages.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11597             Now, what is the synergy with Fort McMurray?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11598             We already have synergy with the City of Fort McMurray.  There are many similarities, the oil and gas industry obviously.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11599             We have people from Newfoundland living in Grande Prairie as, I'm sure you are aware, they do in Fort McMurray.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11600             We have a new software program called "Early" that allows both news teams in each of the communities to be able to access the stories immediately.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11601             Having seven people in Grande Prairie generating stories should be a great help to their newsroom.  For example, in the oil and gas industry if we dig up a story on that industry undoubtedly they will be using that.  Maybe they will put their own spin on it.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11602             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  It sounds wonderful for you.  I mean, you have seven bodies, seven beats and this half person coming in who, if they have any guts at all should able be able to leverage themselves into a full‑time job pretty quickly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11603             MR. BEDORE:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11604             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: But the fact of the matter is, according to your opening statement, you are putting on a pretty good newscast right now at SUN FM.  Everybody comes to you for news.  You are the voice of news.  So why do you need the three?  Why can't you somehow just expand the four?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11605             I'm jut not quite getting if you are the voice of news now, if you are doing the job everyone loves, if you are giving the complete picture and everybody is happy with you, why do you need more?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11606             MR. BEDORE:  Because over the past few years since we put together this application in talking to people if there is one thing ‑‑ and I would say probably the older demographic is hoping for is more news.  We plan to deliver more news, more newscasts, perhaps a news magazine program on SUN FM, on our existing station.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11607             We were pleasantly surprised when the research was done and the people told us how happy they were with our news coverage.  We want to take that strength that we have and expand on it and we feel this will do it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11608             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So it's a competitive advantage and a community service and you are going to adhere to it.  There is no doubt about that.  You are not going to suddenly wake up in a month and discover we did it with four before, we can do it again?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11609             MR. BEDORE:  Definitely not.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11610             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  What about ways to save money on other programs?  It doesn't actually sound like you will unnecessarily be saving money in your news, but at least you will be getting more news for the same kind of money.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11611             Will this work in any other way?  Will you had synergies with Fort McMurray or any of your other stations?  Is there any duplication in programming, any way you can save money in that way?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11612             MR. BEDORE:  I don't know about saving money but we certainly have been sharing of late.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11613             As a matter of fact, Dave Sawchuk has been kind of pushing us forward with doing some of this sharing.  One interesting idea is the sharing of the interviews we do on the station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11614             Maybe I will let Dave just expand on that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11615             MR. SAWCHUK:  Well, with programming issues the way that we have been able to share between the existing stations is Sonic in Edmonton of course is going to have access to bigger band names, et cetera, that perhaps we are not in Grande Prairie and Fort McMurray.  The same with Grande Prairie, we have typically more access to bands and artists than Fort McMurray. They seem to not want to go north.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11616             So it's a really nice opportunity to share artist interviews and any music that may be created independently in our studios.  So we feed Fort McMurray and, as a result, are also fed by Sonic.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11617             So from a programming standpoint we are establishing synergies and we look forward to the opportunity to do more.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11618             MR. BEDORE:  If I can just expand on that, one example of that in the sports arena that really had a benefit for us in our stations in Fort McMurray and in Edmonton, and actually in Victoria as well, a young man from Grande Prairie finally made it to the NHL.  Chris Mason had the opportunity to play goal for Nashville, first round.  They got beat out but this is his first crack at it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11619             We had interviews with Chris from a number of years ago.  Dave was aware of that.  He said, "Okay, can we get some of those interviews?"  We passed that along to him, to our stations in Fort McMurray.  So the stories that were generated in Grande Prairie we shared and we are just expanding on that.  You know, it's something that is just going to continue to grow.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11620             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So they are sort of resources rather than prepackaged programming that you would move around from one station to another?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11621             MR. BEDORE:  Yes.  Each station does their own programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11622             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Okay.  So let's get into programming a little deeper, if I can.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11623             We now know that you are kind of going to use all the resources of the news group, as I say.  Just tell me exactly how you envisage the newscasts, though, being different?  Give me an example.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11624             I mean, the demographics aren't all that different from the group that SUN is appealing to and the group that your new station would appeal to.  There may be a different sound, but they are still the same bodies, it seems to me, the same age group ‑‑ that's where the money is, you folks follow the money from my experience ‑‑ so how will the newscasts differ?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11625             MR. BEDORE:  We think on both stations there will be a pretty even mixture of males and females, but Mercury will skew a bit more to males and SUN FM to females.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11626             We really see that we are going to do an amazing job for the people in the oil patch.  They are going to love our station.  I mean, they have already told us that.  They have been listening to us online with our Mercury feed and the letters of support have been really gratifying and encouraging.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11627             So if there is a story, in the oil and gas industry for example, we will probably package that up slightly differently on Mercury.  You know, maybe the story will focus more on there are opportunities for jobs.  You know, "If you are in the patch right now here is an opportunity for a different type of job" or "This company is going to be hiring more people", whereas maybe our focus on SUN FM is shorter, it is simply "There are changes at this company".

LISTNUM 1 \l 11628             Conversely, there will be different issues on SUN FM where it would be packaged differently.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11629             We really want to ‑‑ these two stations are going to be completely distinct and that's one of the key reasons why we want distinct news anchors.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11630             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Distinct news anchors.  There is no possibility you would have one news anchor being fed with different stories, perhaps with a different focus, a different slant, but you wouldn't go with one news anchor for both stations?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11631             MR. BEDORE:  No.  No.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11632             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Two Peter Mansbridge's with hair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11633             MR. BEDORE:  Well, maybe if we got Peter we might think about that.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11634             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Well, the way the budgets are going these days I wouldn't rule it out, you know.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11635             Okay.  Spoken word generally.  I just want to make sure I understand it.  I am actually a little confused from your written submissions as to how to count it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11636             If I understand it correctly, you speak of seven hours total of spoken word.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11637             Is that correct?


LISTNUM 1 \l 11638             MR. BEDORE:  That is correct, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11639             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  And three and three‑quarters hours approximately is news?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11640             MR. BEDORE:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11641             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  When you say "news", is that news, weather and that sort of thing, or just straight news?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11642             MR. BEDORE:  No, it is news, weather, sports.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11643             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Okay.  Now, that leaves us three and a quarter hours by my reckoning.  Commissioner Cram will correct me if I get my arithmetic wrong.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11644             So I then go to a list of some of the examples of programming you give us, which may or may not be spoken word, I'm not entirely sure.  So maybe I could go through that list and you could help flesh out the three and a quarter.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11645             So are we counting in there "Peace Country Young Achievers, a 60‑second vignette explaining the accomplishments of local young people"?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11646             MR. BEDORE:  Yes, that would be one of we features.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11647             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So how many vignettes a week?  How much will those 60 seconds count up to all told?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11648             MR. BEDORE:  In total?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11649             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11650             MR. BEDORE:  That would be ‑‑ we will be airing them twice a day, for a total of 14 days ‑‑ or for seven days.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11651             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Fourteen minutes?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11652             MR. BEDORE:  Fourteen minutes, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11653             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Oh, this is going to be a long list.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11654             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  You write this down now, Barbara, I'm going to need help.  We have to be out of here by 5:00 and I can't add.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11655             So we have 14 minutes on the Young Achievers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11656             Then we have the "Rock and Roll Retrospective", a one‑hour weekly music‑based show.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11657             So when you say "music‑based", does that mean no spoken word in there, none of it counted?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11658             MR. BEDORE:  No, there is a lot of spoken word actually.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11659             When I say it focuses on a year in Rock music history, it will talk about the bit stories in entertainment, the big stories in sports, and it will have a very local flare to it as well.  What we hope to do with that is, it is kind of the way to show our pride in our city.  This is what happened in Grande Prairie in 1972, that sort of thing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11660             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So is that counted as spoken word then, this show?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11661             MR. BEDORE:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11662             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  That one hour?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11663             MR. BEDORE:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11664             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Okay.  So maybe I should be writing in the margin.  Okay, one hour.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11665             Now, "Young and The Restless", 30‑minute weekday music‑based show again so I'm not sure.  Is that counted as spoken word?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11666             MR. BEDORE:  Yes.  Actually, Dave Sawchuk is our Program Director, maybe I will just pass it over to him as these are all his babies.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11667             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Is that 30 minutes each day then?


LISTNUM 1 \l 11668             MR. SAWCHUK:  Thirty minutes a day, yes.  Of course it's going to feature music from the bands that we choose to feature, but of course it's not as simple as putting the record on, saying here are the Sleddogs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11669             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  No.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11670             MR. SAWCHUK:  We want to get them on the phone, we want to archive our interviews and have them in‑studio and really build up and showcase this music rather than just "Here is another record on our radio station".

LISTNUM 1 \l 11671             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So how do you break it down them?  Do you actually do the math and say, "Well, it's a 30‑minute show but some of it is music by the Sleddogs and some of it is talking to the Sleddogs?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11672             Boy, does that ever sound dumb.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11673             MR. SAWCHUK:  They are a great band.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11674             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Yes, I know, but how many people have interviewed a sled dog on the radio?  Sergeant Preston.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11675             MR. SAWCHUK:  Up in Grande Prairie you might be surprised.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11676             MR. SAWCHUK:  When the gas prices go up, sled dogs come out.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11677             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  That might be more information than any of us need actually.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11678             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Okay.  Let's get back to breaking it up.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11679             MR. SAWCHUK:  Right.  Well, I guess it's difficult to break up.  You know, how many songs to you play?  If it's an upstart young band, they may only have two recorded songs that are suitable for the radio.  If that's the case, we play them both and we spend the rest of the time talking hockey and current events.  If they have four great songs that are ready for the radio and of radio quality, then we will play them all.

 

LISTNUM 1 \l 11680             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  This is not a trick question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11681             MR. SAWCHUK:  Yes.  I guess the answer is, I don't have an answer.  It's on a case‑by‑case basis.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11682             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  But do you break it up when you are counting?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11683             MR. SAWCHUK:  Absolutely.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11684             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  You do make a breakdown?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11685             MR. SAWCHUK:  Yes.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11686             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  When you have a show like this that is 30 minutes each day, just ballpark ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11687             MR. SAWCHUK:  How much of it is talk?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11688             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  ‑‑ how much would you count as spoken word?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11689             MR. SAWCHUK:  I would say between 6 to 10.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11690             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Six to 10 minutes?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11691             MR. SAWCHUK:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11692             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So let's say 10.  We are generous here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11693             MR. SAWCHUK:  Sure, we will take 10.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11694             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Okay.  The Rock 20 Countdown, a two hour weekly music‑based.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11695             Again it says "music‑based", but it's also called a special interest music show.  So do we count that as spoken word?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11696             MR. SAWCHUK:  We are counting that as spoken word, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11697             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  The whole kit and caboodle?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11698             MR. SAWCHUK:  Not the whole kid and caboodle of course, there is music in there.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11699             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So you have to pull that out.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11700             Is that the way the industry does?  Help me with this.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11701             MR. SAWCHUK:  What's the best way to describe?  I guess I have never really thought of it this way, but it is more than just talking about the records.  I mean, the idea is to include special interest spoken word.  It is more than just the announcer teeing up and back‑selling songs.  It is the inclusion of interviews is what we are really shooting for to really build up these new Canadian artists and other artists to make them hits.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11702             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  All right.  Well, what are we saying here?  It's a two‑hour show.  How much of it from your ‑‑ just ballparking again?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11703             MR. SAWCHUK:  I would say 15 minutes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11704             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Only 15 minutes out of two hours?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11705             MR. SAWCHUK:  Yes, for sure.  I mean, I would hate to over promise.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11706             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  No, I don't want anybody to...


LISTNUM 1 \l 11707             The Sunday evening Aboriginal Program, four hour, again the term "music‑based".  So can you give me a breakdown on that one?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11708             MR. SAWCHUK:  We are excited about that program.  We are hoping to use our specialty reporter from the Mercury newsroom focusing on the aboriginal affairs on this show as an expert guest on anything that may be happening.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11709             So in addition to having our host focusing on community events and information that is pertinent to that community, we are hoping to also include the reporter.  So I would say that the spoken word there would be higher per hour than, say, the Rock 20 Countdown, and of course if there are more issues and more things of interest that particular week, then that equals more talk.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11710             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11711             MR. SAWCHUK:  I would probably, on that four‑hour program, I would say 45 minutes 30 to 45 I guess.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11712             MR. BEDORE:  I would say 45 for sure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11713             MR. SAWCHUK:  Forty‑five for sure?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11714             MR. BEDORE:  Yes.  I think so, yes.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11715             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So what I have here is, I have three and three‑quarter hours of news ‑‑ I hope one of you is writing this down ‑‑ that's each week; then 14 minutes a week of the Young Achievers; one hour a week of the Retrospective 10 minutes a day, so I guess that's 70 ‑‑ do we do a seven‑day week or 70 minutes of Rock Countdown.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11716             I'm giving you homework here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11717             First of all, it looks like you have understated if, frankly, so I want to be sure on this.  This is a big deal for us, local reflection, so by Phase III or IV can you do a little homework on this one ‑‑ you don't have to miss the game ‑‑ and maybe give us something in writing so we know, just to be absolutely sure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11718             MR. BEDORE:  Absolutely.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11719             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I actually think you may have understated it so I may be doing you a favour here in giving you some homework.  I think I gave the folks from the gospel station a favour because I think they have a notion of balance and I don't think they have explained it well.  So let's get the best explanation.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11720             So rather than all of us sitting here and Commissioner Cram getting out her abacus, if you  could just kind of work through this and give us your best guess.  We don't mind you being a little ‑‑ erring on the side of positives, as long as you don't go mad, but we would like an accurate assessment, a more accurate assessment of how much spoken word.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11721             MR. BEDORE:  Sure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11722             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  It really sounds, just at first glance, like seven hours may be a bit low.  So if we could look at that and that way we will move right along to something else.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11723             Just a general question.  We kind of dealt with this a little bit in the news, pitching the news to kind of your demographic.  You use a phrase somewhere in your written information ‑‑ I didn't source it but I did write it down ‑‑ that you are going to "provide unique lifestyle information for Rock music fans."

LISTNUM 1 \l 11724             What does that mean?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11725             MR. BEDORE:  I don't really live the Rock lifestyle any more.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11726             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Well, you are selling it so you ought to know.  You get that Chrysler dealer, he knows he's selling Chryslers, you know.  So you are going to have to go a little farther down the road on that one.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11727             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Does anybody want to hazard a guess as to what that means?


LISTNUM 1 \l 11728             MR. BEDORE:  Absolutely.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11729             Dave Sawchuk does live the Rock lifestyle on a daily basis.  He speaks the ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11730             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Great hair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11731             MR. SAWCHUK:  Something that we are really excited about is we do have more and more acts coming through not only Grande Prairie but in the Peace region, whether it be Peace River or Valleyview, et cetera.  We want to make sure we let our listeners know that these shows are happening in addition to Edmonton concerts.  I mean, it seems outrageous to some people to perhaps drive five hours to see the Foo Fighters, but people are doing it all the time from Grande Prairie.  So that would be an example of one ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11732             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Saturday night they drove five hours just to honk their horn down there.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11733             MR. SAWCHUK:  And light stuff on fire.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11734             So that is just one example of the type of lifestyle information that we are really not providing SUN FM right now because it is perhaps not as pertinent, but we know that it will be very important to that demographic should Mercury be granted.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11735             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So how will it differ from the lifestyle information you are giving to your SUN listeners?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11736             Where does that differ?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11737             MR. BEDORE:  Well, if I can just    answer that.  There is no question with our SUN FM listeners we target families.  We are always ‑‑ you know, it's the male and females almost equally at this point in time.  Certainly with our new station, as I mentioned, we want to super serve the guys in the patch.  That is not to exclude the women, because we are very happy to say that, again, people listening to our online station we have received many letters from women saying "This is wonderful".

LISTNUM 1 \l 11738             That is probably the difference.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11739             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Now, when you talk about lifestyle information, is that the sort of information I am going to get out of the actual set programs that we just talked about earlier, you know, the Rock and Roll Retrospective, the Young and the Restless, or is that going to come in some other form, kind of DJ talk or how does that ‑‑ where do I find that?  How will I find that?


LISTNUM 1 \l 11740             MR. BEDORE:  Sure.  It will be a combination, but it will really be the overall sound of the radio stations.  Certainly the jocks will be ‑‑ they will live the lifestyle, the Rock lifestyle, so they will be talking directly to the converted, to their friends essentially.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11741             But also in our newscasts, in our sportscasts we will have that in the back of our mind when delivering that information.  That is who we are targeting and we will super serve them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11742             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I may understand, I'm not sure, but I will get the transcript to look at.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11743             It does seem just a little difficult for me to comprehend, because I see you, though you have different sounds you are drawing it essentially from the same demographic, that wonderful middle area.  When you use a word like "lifestyle", I'm just not quite sure how you can fine‑tune it, but that's why you are in the business.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11744             But it is a difficult concept for me, I must say personally, to appreciate how you fine tune kind of to one set of listeners and then to another, but really more or less the same group living in the same town.  It's hard to believe they are that different.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11745             MR. BEDORE:  Yes.  I understand exactly what you are saying.  One of the first things we do with new people who come to SUN FM currently and certainly with our new station if we are granted the licence, is to explain that.  You know, in some ways you need a few days, a few weeks to really kind of explain what our radio station is all about.  This is who we are.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11746             So you are right, it takes some time.  It is not an easy concept really.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11747             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  All right.  But it does happen?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11748             MR. BEDORE:  But it does happen.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11749             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  You are confident that if I drive into town in two years I'm going to be able to identify these stations more than just from music, but from everything that is going on it is very different?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11750             MR. BEDORE:  Absolutely.  That is something that our company is extremely proud about, certainly in Grande Prairie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11751             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  You have explained your format.  Your key demographic is 25 to 44, right?  That is the central focus of it?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11752             MR. BEDORE:  Twenty to 44.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11753             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Twenty to 44?


LISTNUM 1 \l 11754             MR. BEDORE:  Sure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11755             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Okay.  How different is your approach to serving them with Rock going to be from some of the other formats we have heard offered up to that same demographic?  We have heard some of them today, we will hear more tomorrow.  How different?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11756             I assume you have studied the other applications at this point.  How different are they?  Maybe it's easier for you to say "We are more similar to this one", or something like that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11757             Is that a fair question?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11758             MR. BEDORE:  How do we compare our format to the other Rock formats that have applied?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11759             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Exactly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11760             MR. BEDORE:  Again, I think I will turn that question over to Dave Sawchuk.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11761             MR. SAWCHUK:  We believe our format is incredibly distinct from the others that you will hear from today and tomorrow.  To illustrate that point, there are some charts in your folder I would like you to turn to and we will sort of show you the difference in music.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11762             First of all, on Chart No. 4 you will see the Edmonton demographic positions of four radio stations, one a Classic Rock station, one an Easy Rock station, one a Classic Hits station and one a hybrid Rock station like the one we propose.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11763             You will see that there is no overlap in demographic here.  There is some overlap, what you are seeing are the sweet spots of these radio stations, so although it doesn't show some there is some.  We all know that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11764             So in fact we are different from the other radio stations in that way.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11765             Now, as far as how are we different from the other Rock radio stations, we propose to play 60 percent current music, which is more than any other radio station proposes.  In addition to that 40 percent is in fact Cancon, so we are also different in that regard.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11766             We will be playing less deep cuts than Classic Rock.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11767             So to compare our station that we are proposing, a 60 percent new rock format with a 40 percent Classic Rock flavour, to compare the two you can just turn to the three bubble charts that you see.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11768             The second one is with the large red dot and the small yellow dot.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11769             What you see in the large red dot is a typical week, May 31 to June 6 of K‑Rock in Edmonton, a total of 958 different selections.  he yellow dot is The Bear in Edmonton, which is a hybrid Rock station like we propose, played a total of 541 different selections.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11770             Now, the overlap between those two stations is 131 selections, so although there is some overlap it's marginal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11771             The same with a Classic Hits format and also The Bear as well.  You will see the large green dot and the yellow dot.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11772             Incidentally, all this information was gathered from BDS radio online.  You will see 810 total selections for the Easy Rock station and 541 for the hybrid Rock, with an even smaller overlap of just 13 selections in seven days and then the first chart is the large blue dot which is a Classic Hits proposed format of 1,114 selections and 541 again for the hybrid, with a crossover 136.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11773             So we believe that the formats are incredibly different and the 60 percent current music is the major difference, with the 40 percent Cancon providing us an opportunity to play the new and emerging Canadian bands.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11774             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Okay.  Don't fall off your chair now with the simplicity of this question, but how much overlap might there be with SUN FM, with your existing station?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11775             MR. SAWCHUK:  Well, if we were to be granted an additional licence, SUN FM would change.  What it would exactly change to I'm not sure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11776             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Ah.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11777             MR. SAWCHUK:  If it were to sign on today what would the overlap be?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11778             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11779             MR. SAWCHUK:  I'm not sure

LISTNUM 1 \l 11780             MR. BEDORE:  Yes, I don't know.  I'm not exactly sure.  I would think it would probably ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11781             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Anyway, it is irrelevant because you said you were changing it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11782             MR. BEDORE:  Yes.  There would certainly be some overlap, there is no question about it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11783             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I want to go to a statement that caught my eye in the SBR Creative Media's analysis paper at page 11.  It's about in the middle.  You don't have to turn to it, but you talk about the flaw in your own SUN FM station as it is now.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11784             If I can paraphrase it ‑‑ and certainly you will correct me if I have it wrong ‑‑ the flaw seems to be that though it is popular it doesn't really own some of the listeners and the problem is that it is such a wide format, a wide spectrum format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11785             You say:

"In other words, listeners have to sit through a lot of songs they don't care for in order to hear a song or an artist they really lie."  (As read)

LISTNUM 1 \l 11786             And I guess this is a trick question.  I wonder if you may not be falling into the same trap with this wide, sort of wide emphasis, wide shot emphasis on Rock.  You really are covering a lot of ground here, basically 40 years of rock and roll.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11787             Might you not be creating exactly the same problem?  I'm a young person I'm looking for something today, if I'm 45 I'm looking for Neil Young.  How long am I going to ‑‑ what's the expression here?  How long am I going to have to sit through a lot of songs I don't care for in order to hear one I like?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11788             MR. BEDORE:  Maybe I will go back to when SUN FM signed on in 1996.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11789             At that point in time people loved the format.  I mean, we were the first FM radio station in Grande Prairie and they loved it, and they loved it for a number of years.  It was only as we started getting into the 21st century that we started hearing some discontent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11790             Why did that happen?  I guess because as time goes on there are just so many more choices open to people and they become less happy with that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11791             Perhaps in 10 years we might come back to you and say, "We feel our format is too large now, we need another new radio station."  I don't know where we will be at in 10 years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11792             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I won't be here, I can absolutely promise you that.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11793             MR. BEDORE:  As far as the reasons for that ‑‑ perhaps I would send it back to our research expert, Dave Rahn from SBR Consulting.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11794             Dave...?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11795             MR. RAHN:  Hi.  Yes, in answer to your question, in looking at the market and the research that came back to us a year and a half ago, three things really struck me.  One was the large appetite for Rock music, for music with tempo and energy, both old and new.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11796             Secondarily, even though SUN FM enjoys a tremendous amount of broad cume ‑‑ cumulative audience tuning across the market, satisfaction level with the station was pretty weak, especially compared to the fans if you talk to the fans of the Country station.  Boy, they were pretty excited about their station.  They rated their station an 8 and 8.5, whereas SUN was getting like a 6.5 on that scale.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11797             Then the third thing that I thought was interesting was the great deal of compatibility between several of the music styles, the Rock music styles that we tested.  In other words, in this market if you are a fan of the older Rock, as we tested it, which was kind of an energy‑laden music description, you also tended to be a fan of the newer music too, the '90s to today music that is proposed to be 60 percent or more of the play list.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11798             Frankly, you could throw Classic Hits into that too, but I think that if you were to go down that path then you would be doing exactly what you are saying, is you would be really making it too broad.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11799             So I think in our discussion and analysis with the team here, we said:  What is the most concise, compatible blend of Rock programming that we could put together that would have the broadest appeal yet wouldn't fall into that trap of trying to be all things to all people.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11800             It is certainly going to be more focused than SUN FM is capable of being right now with its music bios.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11801             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So I don't really have to wait, in a sense, because your music selections, though they cover 40 years, are all going to have a kind of common Rock type.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11802             Is that a fair assessment?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11803             MR. RAHN:  I would say a good word to describe it would be "energy".

LISTNUM 1 \l 11804             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  "Energy"?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11805             MR. RAHN:  "Energy", yes.  It's up‑tempo.  I think it you were to listen to SUN FM, the mixture of the Pop and AC‑type material that would filter in throughout the day in its very broad‑based appeal would be things that you wouldn't listen to on the oil patch.  But Mercury, whether it's a Lincoln Park or Rolling Stones song or Sum 41 song, is going to have a certain amount of energy and tempo to it.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11806             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Okay.  While I have you, Mr. Rahn ‑‑ and if I'm not asking it to the appropriate person I will allow you to use your discretion ‑‑ but in another part of your research I think I found a statement that about 75 percent of listeners ‑‑ I don't know how often ‑‑ but were turning to CDs and MP3s and the internet to find the music they like.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11807             Do I have that right?  Was that part of your submission somewhere?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11808             MR. RAHN:  I believe that number is correct, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11809             We asked all listeners:  How often do you find yourself going to CDs, MP3s, the internet and other sources other than FM radio to find the music that you like?  I think among the total sample 75 percent said that they did that regularly or frequently.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11810             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Now, from my experience as an observer of iPod listeners and internet listeners, i.e. as a parent ‑‑ so this isn't a big sample, but it was an intense sampling period I can absolutely promise you that ‑‑

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires


LISTNUM 1 \l 11811             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  ‑‑ that seems to be very much a characteristic of the younger demographic.  They are not finding that very heavy Rock sound they want because their demographic is too small for the commercial operators to appeal to, so they are finding it on the internet and they are finding it in their file exchanges and whatnot and recording it and downloading it for their MP3s.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11812             So is this changing now?  Are all demographics becoming technological savvy and turning to these devices for more variety?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11813             MR. BEDORE:  I think they are.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11814             Having said that, radio still has a great opportunity to provide listeners with new artists.  That is something that we do at SUN FM right now, and with Mercury we will do it beautifully for the Rock music fan.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11815             We have a lot of Rock music bands in Grande Prairie.  We have been pleasantly surprised with the number of bands.  As a matter of fact, we are playing their music on Mercury right now on our online virtual station and they are thrilled to get played on there.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11816             You know, I don't think radio stations should give up and say, "Okay, well, you know, we will give that to the internet stations or to satellite radio.  There is no way.  Particularly for the music from your own province and your home.  We have many bands here who let us know that, "Hey, we appreciate what you are doing for us.  You were playing us on SUN FM and we understand that your format probably wasn't perfect for our type of music, but you still played us and we appreciate that."  It sort of ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11817             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  My daughter gave me an iPod for Christmas, but she was also good enough to show me how to work it.  So perhaps you are right, perhaps the technology is spreading.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11818             MR. DRIVER:  If I could interject, technology certainly is a concern, there is no question of that.  If you look at the Chart No. 8 that was in the handout package ‑‑ I will just give you a second to look at that ‑‑ it clearly shows that the youth of Grande Prairie ‑‑ the 0 to 19 demographic makes up a third of the total population.  So the iPods and the internet, et cetera, I mean we need to repatriate those listeners to radio if radio is going to have a future.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11819             So as we build this station for today, we really also want to build it for tomorrow too.  So I think that huge bubble of young people coming in, we want a station for them, too.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11820             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I don't want to imply that you have snatched defeat from the jaws of victory here, but ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11821             MR. DRIVER:  No.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11822             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  ‑‑ isn't that demographic almost turned off by the type of format you are talking about?  I mean, aren't they looking for something a lot different than the format you have described here this afternoon?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11823             MR. BEDORE:  No.  No.  First of all, the bulk of the music we are going to be playing is from their area.  It will be 2000 to the present time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11824             Some of our music will be older than that, but because it will fit in ‑‑ it's not like, and I'm not sure how your children are, but my children do like Led Zeppelin.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11825             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Out of control.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11826             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  No, that's not true.  They are good kids.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11827             MR. BEDORE:  I mean, my children, they do love Led Zeppelin, they like some of The Who, they like some of that Rock music.  I mean, that's not their music, but they will accept that on their radio station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11828             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So you may bring some of that demographic in as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11829             MR. BEDORE:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11830             MR. RAHN:  Commissioner Langford, if I could just add a point to that, just your question about the demographic breakdown of that 75 percent.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11831             True, in the 15 to 24 group it was 87 percent, so that is a big number, but all the way to 45 to 54 year olds it was 57 percent.  So still 57 percent finding themselves going outside.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11832             I would echo Tom's observation.  Myself, as a researcher and consultant to stations, have seen that the tremendous appeal with some of the older Classic Rock, Led Zeppelin being a great example, Pink Floyd and others, among the 18 to 24 group that frankly aren't burned out on it like some of us are yet, that music tends to blend very well and be a very great lifestyle appeal to the more contemporary music that they are ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11833             MR. BEDORE:  Just one more thing.   There is no question we have a lot of listeners to our new radio station in Edmonton.  Sarah, you know, she is such a promoter of Band of the Month, which is one thing that we plan to do with our new station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11834             Maybe I will just let you explain a bit more about that, Sarah.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11835             MS MORTON:  Sure.  Band of the Month is an initiative that started in Victoria about four years ago at our Modern Rock station there and we brought it to Edmonton when we launched last April.  Essentially, there are so many working bands out there who have recorded material but who aren't working with record labels and their biggest challenge is finding airplay on commercial radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11836             So the initiative gives that opportunity to these working bands to gain exposure with airplay and promotional exposure as well on the radio station.  Sometimes that is just the little push that they need in order to enter the bigger stage of the music industry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11837             MR. BEDORE:  And there is no question that Sonic has brought back a few listeners to radio that probably hadn't been listening to radio in Edmonton.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11838             MS MORTON:  Sure.  It has a strong appeal for the younger end of the demographic, certainly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11839             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Okay.  We have 15 minutes until hockey fans behead me if I carry on, so I think I can wrap this up quickly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11840             I had some questions.  What I want to speak to now is CTD, Canadian Talent Development.  I had some questions about the "Rock the PCD".

LISTNUM 1 \l 11841             Can I assume that those questions are moot now that that initiative is gone, completely gone?


LISTNUM 1 \l 11842             MR. BEDORE:  Well, the CD will probably still be called "Rock the PCD", but instead of creating a contest ourselves a fellow by the name of Chris Thiesen created a contest about a year and a half ago and the success we are seeing this year, we just felt, "Hey, why duplicate what he is doing?  We will support his efforts."

LISTNUM 1 \l 11843             It has been unbelievable the way he has brought bands together in Grande Prairie and we really see that this is going to be something that is going to have a huge impact on the music scene, the local music scene.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11844             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Well, then I have some questions and I hope I don't go on too long.  If we work at this together I think we can do it pretty quickly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11845             We know the rules for Canadian Talent Development, it has to go to third parties.  I assume that Mr. Thiesen is a third party individual in relation to your operation, your corporation?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11846             MR. BEDORE:  The money actually won't go to him, it will go to a studio.  The winners, the top five bands in his contest, will be allowed to go to the studio and the studio essentially we will give them $20,000 to produce this CD.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11847             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Okay.  So it's still $20,000.  Let's start there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11848             MR. BEDORE:  Oh, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11849             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  All right.  None of it is going to Mr. Thiesen?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11850             MR. BEDORE:  No.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11851             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  All right.  I wasn't sure.  I thought maybe you were contributing to the contest itself.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11852             So your own contest is our and now the whole $20,000 will go to developing a CD?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11853             MR. BEDORE:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11854             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  And the CD will still be five winners of the contest?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11855             MR. BEDORE:  Four or five, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11856             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Four or five.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11857             MR. BEDORE:  Yes, the top four or five, depending on the year.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11858             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  All right.  Then maybe my questions are still relevant.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11859             Keeping on the theme of arms' length, will you confirm that the studio that gets this money, or the studios that get this money, will be at arms' length from your operation?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11860             MR. BEDORE:  Absolutely.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11861             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Okay.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11862             And I just want to be sure about one other aspect and that is the kind of promotional aspect of the CD on your stations in Grande Prairie, Fort McMurray, and now you said in your written submission Victoria, but I would think that would be out now.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11863             Is that correct, assuming you sell Victoria?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11864             MR. BEDORE:  Probably, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11865             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I mean unless, I suppose, you had some agreement.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11866             So we are now talking about your Alberta stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11867             Are you throwing any of the $20,000 value into the kind of ‑‑ or any of the $20,000 figure calculated on the value of this sort of promotion?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11868             MR. BEDORE:  No, none.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11869             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Okay.  So the $20,000 goes completely to making a CD?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11870             MR. BEDORE:  To getting that final product, being able to give the CDs to the bands who have won it so that they can use it to help their careers.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11871             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  There is no question of somehow figuring it into music you might play anyway on your own radio station or anything like that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11872             MR. BEDORE:  I'm sorry, what's the question?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11873             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Well, I mean your radio station needs music to play, so clearly, you know, if you were somehow simply financing the CDs you play anyway, that might not be eligible.  But I think you are telling me that this is a completely different CD, totally out of the ordinary run of anything else you would play.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11874             Is that correct?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11875             MR. BEDORE:  Well, yes.  But actually when it is produced we certainly plan to play cuts from it.  We want to promote it.  That's really just the beginning of the promotion.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11876             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  But you are not counting the value of that promotion ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11877             MR. BEDORE:  Oh no.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11878             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  ‑‑ into the $20,000?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11879             MR. BEDORE:  The $20,000 will be used ‑‑ all of that money will be used to make this CD.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11880             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I should have just asked that question, right.  For a guy who is in a hurry I'm going slow.


‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11881             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11882             One last area is the old technical question.  It seems to me there are a lot of frequencies out there in Grande Prairie country, but if you are not given ‑‑ if you are licensed but not given your preferred frequency, do you see any problem in finding another frequency?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11883             MR. BEDORE:  This is great because our Technical Director speaks very short, so I will pass this over to Sam.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11884             MR. LOWE:  Okay, I will try to make it quick.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11885             We obviously knew this would be a question or a potential question so we spoke to the issue with our consulting engineer, and although we thought it premature to fully flesh out an alternate frequency, felt that we should have no trouble finding a frequency that would be acceptable to Industry Canada that would meet our objectives.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11886             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Meet your objectives, work with your present site, all that sort of thing?


LISTNUM 1 \l 11887             MR. LOWE:  Exactly, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11888             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Would that affect your business plan in any way?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11889             MR. LOWE:  No.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11890             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Those are my questions.  It is nine minutes to 5:00, it's up to my colleagues and your good selves.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11891             Mr. Chair...?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11892             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, Mr. Langford.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11893             Commissioner Cram...?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11894             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  I will be brief.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11895             Do I understand from what you were saying today that you believe your share of the market, versus the Pattison station, that you have twice the share they have?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11896             MR. DRIVER:  No, definitely not.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11897             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11898             Because I thought the purport of what you were saying at page 4 is:

"... the majority of Grande Prairie residents turn to us for news and information programming, more than twice as many as tune to CJXX."


LISTNUM 1 \l 11899             MR. DRIVER:  Correct.  That is listenership.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11900             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.  So it's not share?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11901             MR. DRIVER:  No, it's not.  It's certainly not revenue share.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11902             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.  So what should we consider ‑‑ I was sitting here listening to you, thinking that if we would license you we would have no alternative but to also license Pattison in order to avoid an inequity in the market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11903             MR. DRIVER:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11904             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And if we did as you suggested, Mr. Driver, then we would license a third and we would have created another inequity in the market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11905             MR. DRIVER:  Right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11906             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So can you tell me what's wrong with my reasoning in saying that if we license you we would be compelled to license Pattison?


LISTNUM 1 \l 11907             MR. DRIVER:  I don't believe there is anything wrong with that reasoning.  I think that the incumbent stations do a very good job in the community.  We both work very hard and we have built that marketplace, the radio revenue side of that marketplace through very hard work and we would just love to have an opportunity to continue to do that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11908             You know, we really ‑‑ I feel like I'm a 21‑year‑old suitor coming to my future bride's parents saying, "I love this girl.  I'm really going to treat her well.  Can I have her?"

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11909             MR. DRIVER:  That's what I feel like.  Because I'm going to look after her and I'm going to treat her great.  That's where we are at.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11910             I mean, this group of people right here have worked really hard and the community is important to us, we all make our homes there, our lives are there.  I'm going to retire there, I'm sure of it ‑‑ not too soon I hope ‑‑ and so giving us a licence to us and to Pattison, from my perspective, that's wonderful.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11911             I think even for the community it's wonderful.  I know it's wonderful, because the broadcasters are good broadcasters and the broadcasters are the people.  I have worked under five ownership groups in my ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11912             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Including Pattison?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11913             MR. DRIVER:  Pardon me?


LISTNUM 1 \l 11914             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Including Pattison?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11915             MR. DRIVER:  Not Pattison, no.  I'm not including Pattison, but in my time in Grande Prairie, I have always worked at CFGP, I have worked for five different owners, or I guess ‑‑ I guess because Rogers twice perhaps, depending on what happens.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11916             MR. DRIVER:  But in all that time it's just the station just doing things for the community and the community, you know, working with the station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11917             The "Kev's Kids" thing is just amazing to me.  Like, you know, a half a million dollars given by the community to a radio station's charity, like it's fantastic and it shows tremendous love from the community to the station.  It's great.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11918             If the Peace River thing is done, if a specialty licence is granted, those kinds of things, sure they will erode the market a little bit, but we can live with that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11919             If new players are brought in, then things change to.  I mean, we probably go back into BBM and incur more costs there.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11920             Four sales forces or more in the community and suddenly rate integrity starts to get hammered because it gets much more competitive and then how do we deal with that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11921             So for a really healthy radio market I would love you to give two stations to Grande Prairie and make it us and Pattison, if that is compelled by giving it to us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11922             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  You say if we licensed ‑‑ say just left the incumbents as they are and we, say, licensed two new stations, it would be competitive.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11923             That's sort of what we want, isn't it?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11924             MR. DRIVER:  Well, competitive to the sense that ‑‑ licensing us would give new sound and new opportunities to the community, there is no question of that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11925             It will become competitive within the radio community, and that isn't necessarily good.  The last thing we want to do is have our industry fighting with each other and beating each other up over rate and those kinds of things.  There is more of a chance of that happening with four broadcasters than there is with two.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11926             So I don't know that that kind of competition is necessarily a good thing for us.  I think we can do a great job for the community and use the people who are there and who really know the community and can look after the needs that we know the community has.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11927             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11928             Thank you, Mr. Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11929             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Thank you, Mrs. Cram.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11930             I will have only one question to you before going to legal counsel and then I will have a question for Mr. Miles.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11931             You heard me asking other applicants today to confirm which genre they were skewing and what was the median age that they were aiming at.  So I want to hear from you what Mercury will be.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11932             MR. BEDORE:  I will turn that over to our program expert, Dave Sawchuk.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11933             MR. SAWCHUK:  And I know we went over this about an hour ago, but there has been so much excitement and Murray's last story is really choking me up.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires


LISTNUM 1 \l 11934             MR. SAWCHUK:  We just went over this and now I can't remember, and I wrote it down.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11935             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  It was 39.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11936             MR. SAWCHUK:  And I probably should have wrote it on my hand.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11937             MR. BEDORE:  Actually, the median age that we are proposing for our radio station would be about 28.  The median age for the population of Grande Prairie in the 2001 Census was 29.7.  We will be a little bit younger than that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11938             THE CHAIRPERSON:  You said earlier that you think that you are going to serve as many male and female.  Is that what you are still contemplating?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11939             MR. BEDORE:  It will probably be a little more female on a new station if awarded.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11940             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Your new station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11941             MR. BEDORE:  A little more male, sorry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11942             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11943             MR. SAWCHUK:  Male.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11944             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Male or female?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11945             MR. SAWCHUK:  More male.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11946             MR. BEDORE:  More male, sorry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11947             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I know legal counsel has a question for you.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11948             MS FISHER:  I just wanted to clarify the request from Commissioner Langford that you provide the breakdown on the proposed spoken word programming before the beginning of Phase III.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11949             I notice that for Item 1 we have asked them to provide some written material before the end of the day tomorrow and I wondered if that would be possible for you to provide it by then as well?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11950             MR. BEDORE:  On the spoken word material?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11951             MS FISHER:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11952             MR. BEDORE:  Definitely, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11953             MS FISHER:  All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11954             Thank you, Mr. Chair.  Those are my questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11955             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Now my question is for Mr. Miles.  You heard over the last hour and some minutes the representatives of OK Radio explaining to us what Mercury will be and we wonder if they were granted the licence and you were granted the authority to get it, if you are ready to accept all the commitments that they made and all the statements that they made during the hearing?


LISTNUM 1 \l 11956             MR. MILES:  Mr. Chair, I have two answers, one short and to the point and then if I would be allowed perhaps a bit of a poetic licence because Mr. Langford, more than anybody else knows how difficult it has been for me to sit back here and not say anything during the whole process.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11957             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I have enjoyed it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11958             MR. MILES:  Yes.  And so have the colleagues in front.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11959             MR. MILES:  So, for he record, we have examined the applications and we have listened to everything that is said and committed to here, and we will be bound by all commitments made by the group out front, both at this hearing and in the applications and in response to the deficiencies.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11960             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, Mr. Miles.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11961             I don't know if it is going to be Mr. Bedore or Mr. Charest, but I am giving you two minutes to sum up and give us your best shot why the Commission should grant you the licence.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11962             MR. BEDORE:  Mr. Charest, may I proceed?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11963             MR. CHAREST:  Yes.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11964             MR. BEDORE:  Mr. Chairman and Members of the Commission, Grande Prairie is ready for new radio stations and can support them.  We understand you may award more than one new licence and we welcome the competition.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11965             The hybrid Rock music format we propose is distinct from all the other applications before you.  It is designed for the unique demographic make‑up of Grande Prairie.  Our commitment to new Rock music, 40 percent Canadian content and our unique Canadian Talent Development commitments will ensure a voice for the emerging Rock music scene in Grande Prairie that needs a radio station like Mercury.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11966             The members of Nickelback came from the little town of Hanna in Southern Alberta.  We want the next big Canadian band to come from Grande Prairie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11967             SUN FM has been very supportive of emerging Canadian talent, but Mercury will even be better suited to highlight the great new Rock music being created all over Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11968             Our plans to develop a seven‑person news team will greatly improve an already excellent news service by allowing us to develop expertise in key areas of interest to our listeners.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11969             Our proposal to create the first Aboriginal radio program in Grande Prairie has caught he imagination of the Aboriginal community.  They recognize the show will become a terrific source of information for their community, a source of pride in being a member of our Aboriginal community, and a way to expose Rock music created by the Aboriginal community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11970             THE SUN FM team has years of experience reflecting our community.  Mercury will broaden and deepen that reflection.  We are particularly proud of the efforts of Katie O'Connor.  I wish she had had the opportunity to talk about some of the things we are planning for the community, but in particular with the DiverseCity Project to ensure that their message of tolerance and respect is heard in our community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11971             We are ready to put this new radio station on the air.  We have received countless letters of support, including comments like "It's about time Grande Prairie had a new Rock music radio station" or "If this station were on the air I wouldn't have bought a satellite radio."

LISTNUM 1 \l 11972             Sam, Murray and I, and the others on our team, have years of experience serving our community and that has resulted in its financial success.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11973             Dave Sawchuk, Katie O'Conner and the other young people working at SUN FM live the Rock music lifestyle on a daily basis.  Together we can bring a great new radio station to Grande Prairie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11974             As a Rock music fan and the leader of this wonderful team of broadcasters, I ask you to please give us the privilege and responsibility and let us make this dream a reality.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11975             Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11976             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11977             Thank you, Mr. Charest; thank you, Mr. Morton, thank you, Mr. Miles and thank you, Mr. Bedore and your group and your team.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11978             This will end the hearing for today.  We will resume tomorrow morning at 8:30.

‑‑‑ Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1704, to resume

    on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 at 0830 / L'audience

    est ajournée à 1704, pour reprendre le mardi

    20 juin 2006 à

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